What is history of line from north end of V. to south Yonkers?
Did it ever connect with IRT at 242 St? Or go bankrupt earlier?
Did it compete for commuters with Putnam line (also in park) or Hudson line?
It makes a nice hike and only 2 apartment complexes sprout atop route.
I think what you see is the abandoned Getty Square branch of the Putnam division.
I'm not sure where it broke away from the Putnam, but I do know it ran through Van Cortlandt Park and terminated at Getty Square.
As for history - I believe this part of the line had thrid rail and was abandoned some time shortly before or after World War II.
Yonkers branch service ended on June 30, 1943.
Yonkers -- my hometown!
Losing this line was a big mistake for Yonkers. For a few million, the IRT could have been extended to Getty Square. The Getty Square branch was down the cliff from the fashionable Park Hill neighborhood, an orignial garden suburb built on the bluffs in the 1880s and 1890s. It provided access to the city for that neighborhood, which now has cheap mainsions, some abandoned. One huge house, the overcliff house, had an elevator down the cliff to Broadway, other folks took the city stairs.
The Yonkers branch ran behind the stores on Broadway. The usual idiocy -- parts of the ROW have been sold off limiting its usefulness forever. But people expected to use cars then. My grandfather drove to the area around 242nd St, parked, and rode the IRT to work.
While outside NYC, perhaps this part of Yonkers (and this line) could be part of the forgotten board, or the subject of subtalk walk.
You may recall, I favor using the Putnam mail line as a MetroNorth spur as far as Tuckahoe Road, with large park'n-ride lots/garages for traffic off the Thruway, Sprain, Saw Mill and Cross County, all of which are right next to the line. You could drive, park, and shoot down to GCT in 15-20 mintues.
There are still a few remnants of the Yonkers branch in Van Courtlandt Park just east of the Parade Grounds. At one point the stone abutments still exist for a bridge over a ravine. There is also an intact bridge over the Henry Hudson Parkway that is now used for a foot path. The branch left the main line north of the Van Courtandt station.
I'm surprised that the Putnam line has never been considered for a passenger revival. The line was never controlled by the MTA; it passed from the Penn Central to Conrail, which abandoned the last freight service. There has been at least one encroachment on the line, by a motel in Yonkers that covers part of the right-of-way. I'm not sure if other parts of the route have been sold off.
Paul DiMaria:
It appears that the old Purnam line right of way is mostly intact. In fact Westchester County has made it into a paved trailway for bicycle riding and walking.
BMTJeff
The Put was never electrified. It was steam then diesal, people changed at either University Hts, to catch a train to GCT or I forgot the name a mile lower to catch the old 9th Ave Shuttle to the IRT
Sedgwick Avenue, which is the divider between two bronx grids. The Riverdale/Kingsbridge numbering continues where Manhattan leaves off at the northern end. The main system to the east starts at 132, which is at Oak Point and is aligned with 132nd in Manhattan, but then the system, due to Bronx terrain loses 20 blocks. The highest west side street is 263, on the east side it's 243 (the part of the west side between Sedgwick and Jerome, which is aligned with the east side, disappears under Van Cortlandt Park).
Hey Bob - beg to differ but according to Kevin Walsh's page linked to below from within Anon E Mouse's reply -
"The Putnam Branch itself was never
electrified (hence the absence of remains of a third rail). There was, however, an electrified branch that diverged from the
line just north of the Van Cortlandt Park Station and ran to Getty Square in Yonkers. Passenger service ended on the line
in 1958, and the last fright train rumbled on the now-missing tracks in 1980."
It's funny - my memory doesn't seem worth much anymore - yet trivia like the electrified branch to Getty Square is far easier for me to remember than the answer to the last question my boss asked:-)
From reading the posts it seems that the Yonkers service was electrified only on the part where it diverged from the old Putnam line. Was this a shuttle line between the Putnam and Yonkers with passengers switching between trains at the junction? Or did the equipment run on diesel (or coal?) on the Putnam portion, and then use the third rail on the Yonkers line? Somehow I doubt the latter, the cost of such dual purpose equipment would not be justified for such a limited service as the Yonkers branch line.
[From reading the posts it seems that the Yonkers service was electrified only on the part where it diverged from the old Putnam
line. Was this a shuttle line between the Putnam and Yonkers with passengers switching between trains at the junction? Or did the equipment run on diesel (or coal?) on the Putnam portion, and then use the third rail on the Yonkers line? Somehow I doubt the latter, the cost of such dual purpose equipment would not be justified for such a limited service as the Yonkers branch line.]
It was a shuttle line. Yonkers riders had to change trains at the junction with the mainline Put in Van Cortlandt Park - and then change once more for the el if they were heading to Manhattan.
While we are on the subject of the Getty Square branch and the abandonment in 1943, Peter's post expained it partially - as a shuttle, the cars were needed on the NYC's main line in 1943 more that just an isolated shuttle. The ODT would permit such abandonedments if the equipment was needed urgently elswhere. In Baltimore, the ODT allowed the conversion of the 23 car to bus. The 23 originally went to Essex (but not near the Glen L. Martin aircraft plant) and a bus shuttle from the car line to there was established in 1937. In 1938 the bridge over Middle River was damaged and the car line was shortened to the east side of the bridge. Buses took over from there. The ODT allowed the line's full coversion in 1942. The 23 was converted to bus and combined with the shuttles. The 20 car was extended from Highlandtown to City Hall to take that part of the 23's rail. The only rail that was actually abandoned was the 1.3 miles from Eastern Avenue and Dundalk Avenue (junction with the 26 line) to Middle River. The 9 semi-convertibles released from the 23 were put on other lines.
The old Putnam ROW has had its rails completely torn up from where the Hudson line peels off north of University Heights station all through Van Cortlandt Park. (See Kevin Walsh's site for details and pics.) Several bridges over the lake are still in place, with the trackways and ballast for ties still visible.
The cost of reviving this ROW for passenger service would be prohibitive. There would also be enormous community resistance to replacing what has become a nature/jogging trail with an active rail line. If service were to be restored, extensive fencing would be required all through the park.
Remember in 1991 when the West Side line running north from Penn Station through Hell's Kitchen and Riverside Park was revived for Amtrak service? It took a lot of time for people to get used to (at the cost of at least one life) high-speed trains running on what had been abandoned trackage for many years.
For more on The Old Put, follow the highlighted link to Kevin Walsh's page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In its earliest days, the New York & Northern (the Yonkers Branch & Putnam Div) was the original rail/elevated link into NYC.
It was envisioned at the time as being linked with the 9th Ave El.
However, RR technology was producing much heavier locos and cars that could be supported by the then lightly constructed elevated structure. Earlier plans called for a stone arch structure, which even in those days was cost prohibitive.
Up until WWII, you could change trains (from the El to the NY&N) at 155th St and take the NY&N to points north and Yonkers.
The Yonkers branch was the last of the NYC electrification projects and the first to be abandoned and de-electrified.
Jan 6, 1918
The Sedgewick Ave station of the 9th Ave El opened.
The New York and Northern Railroad had terminated their operations over their bridge to 155th St station of the El.
The bridge, last of the steam powered swing type Harlem River drawbridges, was leased for 999 years to the IRT who instituted shuttle service on a single track until March 1st, when both tracks were placed in use.
[The Yonkers branch was the last of the NYC electrification projects and the first to be abandoned and de-electrified.]
What I don't understand is why the Yonkers (Getty Square) branch was abandoned in 1943. It's not the abandonment _per se_, instead it's the year. World War II was in progress in 1943, with the economy on a war footing and transit ridership near its all-time high. In addition, diesel fuel for buses presumably was scarce on account of military needs. Why not keep the branch running for the duration of the war?
There are all kinds of horror stories of Surburban, Trolley & Interurban lines that quit during this time, and the stories of the efforts to restart them or keep them going range from coast to coast.
Just like the NYC El cars and NYB&W equipment that wound up on the west coast for shipyard runs when the need overshadowed public opinion as to what was needed and what wasn't.
Peter...What were the ridership stats for the years prior to 1943 on the line? I do understand what you're saying, though. There were several trolley lines in Brooklyn that were abandoned during the war(3rd Ave, Erie Basin, to name a few) and why?
Carl M.
[Peter...What were the ridership stats for the years prior to 1943 on the line? I do understand what you're saying, though. There were several trolley lines in Brooklyn that were abandoned during the war(3rd Ave, Erie Basin, to name a few) and why?]
I've never seen any numbers on Getty Square ridership, but I would imagine that it was low given the double transfer and the reasonable proximity of the much faster New York Central Hudson line to the Yonkers terminal.
As far as wartime line abandonments are concerned, Dan Lawrence's recent post sums it up pretty well - rolling stock (probably scarce given the war effort) had to be redeployed to busier lines.
Here we go again!!! In another one of my so called apartment window adventures (as of 2:15AM), a pair of SBK locmotives appeares with an IRT R-14, heading southbound. Can I safely assume that R-142s, 6316-6320 have arrived from the factory? Can anyone confirm this?
Darn it! If a car delivery did take place, and I'm sure it did, I found the most inopportune time to be out of my house, and not at my front window....
More apartment window adventures (Adventures of a Railfan) to come.
-Stef
Might be no biggie.. I saw
"a pair of locomotives with an
IRT r14 car" leaving Van Cortlandt
yesterday morning.. and parked in the
layup track at 215st..
Yeah, but seeing a pair of SBK locos makes you scratch your head....
-Stef
Damn! You really need a webcam in your apartment.
You're absolutely right, my friend.....
-Stef
Hmmm....That means I really need an el outside of my window...
-Hank :)
Stef,
Do you suppose that it is time to invest in one of those security cameras (the type that takes one picture every few seconds), and aim it out your front window at the el? That way you would not have to stay at your window all of the time.
Yeah, I should old friend. Then it would be possible for all of you to share my railfan adventures! Someone from the Trolley Museum suggested aiming a camera on myself and titling my flick "Life With Stef", very much like the Truman Show with Jim Carrey. I guarantee I will do no such thing:)
-Stef
Stef you and SubBus (aka 3TM) should contact each other via e-mail and coordinate R-142 sightings. He was on the Canarsie Tour, if you recall.
SubBus lives near the Bay Ridge LIRR in East New York (the entranceway to the system) and you're up by the IRT yards -- the final delivery point.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not up at the yard, but on the side of the el, and can see the cars heading to their destination.
-Stef
Yes, as mentioned in my earlier post. I did see aset of R142 on the freight tracks near the New Lots (L) station around 7:30pm waiting to make its way onto the IRT via the wye........
I think its time to go to the Linden shops.......
3TM
Greetings,
Just to inform you that a new rolling stock has been added to the program. It's has the IRT stock of R36 in red and white along with some MTA loco's and flat cars. The address is http://kamx-members.xoom.com/ttcsubway/
Paul
Anybody interested in giving a subway tour to someone from the great white north?
Sure, E-mail me!
It's time for one of those postings that will generate hundreds of
threads! Put your most surprising transit moment up, like when you
looked down a platform and you saw something you didn't expect to see.
Mine was returning to Chicago in the early 90's and finding the South
Side "L" and the Dan Ryan line had swapped terminals when the subway
extension was finished. Growing up on the North Side, the Howard Line
trains always went to either Englewood or Jackson Park. It was a shock that they now went to 95th St...
Mine was the first time I saw a Flushing Line train running on the express tracks of the BMT Broadway line at 49 St, headed towards the Coney Island yard at about 11 PM.
I was in Berlin in 1990 riding the S-bahn (on an ERA fan trip). We were passed by a steam locomotive! Nothing in tow, but it was running in reverse. It was on the line between Zoologischer Garten and Friedrichstrasse. By the time I whipped my camera out, it was long gone.
Another intersting sight on this trip was where a trolley line crossed a narrow guage steam line at grade. I have photos of a trolley waiting for the steam train to pass.
On the subway, the good thing is a monotonous reliability. The only surprise is a bad surprise.
One morning in the late 1980s two F trains pulled into 15th-Street Prospect Park from different directions at exactly the same time (the station has a single island platform). Then, poof -- the power went out, the lights went off, and the trains were dead. After 20 minutes, we left and walked up to Grand Army Plaza.
One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge, riding under an open window. At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head as the train pulled away.
While exiting up a stairway at Columbus Circle in the mid-1990s, I came across a homeless person whose shreaded pants left little to the imagination urinating down the stairs. He graciously aimed the stream to the side so I could pass.
While exiting the subway at my home station a couple of years ago, I notices a trail of blood drops running up from the platform. It ran down the sidewalk and over to the bar on the corner, which had been known (for 50 years) as Windsor Terrace's drunk/druggie/loser bar. It has since closed. I never found out what happened.
I guess the one pleasant surprise I can remember was getting on my first air conditioned, newly painted Redbird one morning in Kingsbridge. Not a railfan at the time, I had no idea it was coming, and absolutely loved it.
[One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge, riding under an open window.
At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head as the train pulled away.]
Durn shame no one grabbed his arm and held on tight. There would've been most amusing results at the end of the platform.
[While exiting up a stairway at Columbus Circle in the mid-1990s, I came across a homeless person whose shreaded pants left little to the imagination urinating down the stairs. He graciously aimed the stream to the side so I could pass.]
Who says common courtesy is dead?
>>>>One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge,
riding under an open window. At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head
as the train pulled away.<<<
This is a common tactic for some of our stellar youth, who want to release frustration or prove their macho-ness, which they define as attacking someone who cannot attack back. I was on a GG back in 1973 and one of group of guys getting off the train smacked me in the head as they were getting off the train. Before I knew what hit me, the doors were closing and they were off, laughing at the putz who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway, what could we do? There were 4 of us and a dozen of them.
Rule, then as now: when a group of kids gets on your subway car, be alert, and don't sit next to the door. There very likely is a dude in theat crowd who wants to prove himself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I also saw a real oddity in East Berlin in 1962. A tractor trolly with an overhead wire pulling a large trailer passenger car. I saw several other old and odd rolling stock on both the S-Bahn and the trolley lines. This was because at the end of WW II all of the trolley rolling stock, buses and S-Bahn rolling stock were in East Berlin. West Berlin bought all new modern equipment, but in the east, they were still using much equipment from the 20's or earlier. By my next trip to East Berlin in 1978, all the old stuff was gone; replaced by modern trams.
Mine had to be driving through Hamburg PA and and as I passed over the bridge over the reading, Blue Mt. and Northern tracks I spotted reading T-1 class 4-8-4 #2102 sitting in the yard. My dad made a U-turn across the median strip and we went down to see it. got a couple pounds of coal out of the tender.
The time on an IRT train Manhattan bound from Flatbush when the doors opened briefly on the wrong side at a wall station.
AFTER LIVING IN NYC FOR OVER 30 YEARS NOTHING SURPRISES ME ANY MORE...
Gee, I thought that only happened with R-44s.:-)
I can think of a couple. Seeing a 1 train pull into 14th St. on the express track and a 3 train pull in on the local track at about the same time, for starters.
The B train which pulled into 14th St. on the EIGHTH Ave. line. A passenger saw my bewildered expression and explained that a building had collapsed along 6th Ave. and that all 6th Ave. trains were running along 8th Ave.
Then there was the first time I actually noticed our express train was skipping a local station. Don't remember the exact train or station (if I had to guess, it was an A at either 23rd or Spring Sts.), but the date was July 20, 1967.
Seeing the BMT standards for the first time. UGH!!
Standing at the southern end of the southbound platform at 42nd St. and wondering where all those northbound trains were stopping. Wondering about the same thing while on a northbound A train later that day. It all fell into place about a month later.
Overhearing some guy hollering to his friend while looking through the railfan window: "Hey, Ron, next stop, Havana!"
I have to disagree about those BMT standards. Sure the look old-fashioned compared to fluorescent lit air-conditioned trains. But they were built in the 1920s. They were so roomy (thin walls, I guess), 67' long, with that dark pink floor and green walls, and the first train type with two doors per opening area, and the vertical pole between the two doors in the pair, and the conductor's area right in the car, and 3-person, 2-person and 1-person seats, and overhead big fans... You felt (sorta) like you were in someone's parlor, not on a train. Especially when my mother with complete NYC sarcasm would say, as I rested my arm on the window sill coming back from someplace fancy: "Good, clean the train with your new coat..."
BMT standards were pretty innovative in their day. But why aren't they running anymore?
Read his message again, specifically the part about when they were built.
I know that, i was trying to prove a point
06/03/2000
Maybe politics plays a part in this. Straphangers want new shiny subway cars. Anything old is strickly for the buffs. When the D-types were scrapped in '65, they were in the best condition in the life. They could have ran for a few more years.
Bill "Newkirk"
The term straphanger will soon thankfully be obsolete.
06/03/2000
[The term straphanger will soon thankfully be obsolete.]
Sounds like the time is ripe for a new term to be invented.
Bill "Newkirk"
I actually like obsolete terms, it makes you think about the origin.
Actually the word straphanger became obsolete in 1969 when the "Q" cars of the Myrtle Av El was discontinued. They were the last cars to have real straps.
Those metal loops are still shaped the same as those straps.
Now the way the bars curl from the walls (or from the floor on the R-142), that might be considered one big giant immovable strap and the term doesn't have to be obsolete!
I personally have always preferred those metal "straps" to the long horizontal poles. With the straps, each person gets one and they are easier for shorter people (like me) to reach. When you grab one you have your place to hold on and not accidentally get someone else's hand.
That's why they suck. There is less hand space for all. On a bar, people can slide their hands to let someone put their hand on, on a strap you have to orchestrate a whole movement of people going on to the next strap so there will be room. Or share a strap, which is annoying.
The worst part of all however is that they swing, which makes them useless when the train rocks as it moves at high speeds. It made sense when they were soft, and couldn't be made rigid, but when they were made into metal, adding that hinge was a completely lamebrained idea.
If you're going to tell me that they can swing over above the seats, in their pulled out position, they obstruct nothing.
I agree with your criticism of the firm individual hand holds. They give good longitudinal support for sudden starts or stops, but poor lateral support so you could find yourself in someone's lap when the car swayed from sid to side. With the old leather strap you could loop it around your wrist so that even if the subway luched so much that you lost your footing (and the trains with the leather straps did lurch that much)you were literaly hanging from the stap and could regain your footing.
I think the push for fleet standardization had a lot to do with the retirement of the old BMT equipment. Obsolescence also played a role. If you can't get parts for equipment anymore, you've got a problem. It's hard to say how many years the BMT standards had left in them; however, it has been said they were still in better shape than the R-1/9s.
I absolutely, positively agree the Triplexes had plenty left in them when they were retired. They were virtually maintenance-free. It would have been one thing had they been failing left and right and just barely limping along. Retiring them so soon when they were still running great had to one of the biggest blunders of all time.
IIRC, many Brooklynites hated to see both those car classes go.
I was all of 10 1/2 and narrow-minded when I saw the BMT standards for the first time on July 20, 1967. To me, they just looked ugly. The biggest turnoff was the lack of bulkhead signs. Just when I had gotten used to looking above the storm door for train markings, I had to deal with this. I've come to appreciate them now for what they were: solid, durable, and indestructible.
Most surprising moment?
Well, i'd have to say that discovering express tracks and layups actually existed under local stations. That and peak direction expresses.
Now that you mention it, I saw that once happen on the Brighton line 35 years ago southbound at Prospect Park. Could you imagine if you were leaning against it and fell onto the other direction track below? Since it wasn't in the newspaper the next day, I guess no one fell out.
Seeing an R40M arriving at Broadway Junction on the "LL" back in 1969 - when all that I'd ever seen there were incandescently-lit cars like the BMT Standards, R-7As and R-9s. This train had its A/C going full tilt and was ICE cold, it was August 4, 1969 and was 96 degrees.
The sight of my first R32s (Cortelyou Rd, Nov.23,1964) and my first Slants (179th Street, August 3, 1968)
The sight of brand new OLD-STYLE Canarsie tile at 8th Avenue, last November 13th (I had suspected something to that effect was up).
There are others, I will have to look them up in my archives
wayne
06/01/2000
[This train had its A/C going full tilt and was ICE cold, it was August 4, 1969 and was 96 degrees.]
That very day, the BMT Standards ran their last run and faded into transit history (sigh). The Nostalgia Special of 1976-1980 doesn't count since this was a special run.
Bill "Newkirk"
So those were R-40Ms on the Canarsie in 1969, eh? I had been under the impression that those were R-42s.
A few more surprises: emerging onto the Manhattan Bridge on that very first subway ride way back in 1965. Even with all the local stations that N train skipped, I don't remember any of that.
Seeing an A train thunder past 81st St. for the first time in May of 1967. I couldn't wait to experience that express run, which I did for the first time on November 24th of that year.
Seeing the R-38s for the very first time on the E. The blue band at the belt rail was the real surprise.
Seeing R-7/9s on the Canarsie for the first time on January 5, 1969. Whoa!! Of course, that particular train was headed in the opposite direction...
Transferring from the Canarsie to the Broadway line at Union Square and seeing EE trains being stored on the express tracks. I almost had a stroke.
Seeing mixed consists of R-32s and R-42s on the D. AARRRRGHHHH!!!
Yep, they were R40Ms. The cars were [original numbers]:
4300-4301 (4500-01), 4292-4293 (4492-3), 4304-4305 (4504-5), 4297-4296 (4497-6). We rode #4300 down to E 105th, waited there (on its quaint, rickety wooden platform, complete with lamps with crook arms and metal shades with baskets), waited for the R40M to come back and got on again, this time aboard #4296.
wayne
Lets see...
1. Seeing the C-1 bilevels speed by Woodside back in '97.
2. Seeing the R-110B at 34st Penn express track from the uptown local track, and watched torturedly as it left. Never saw it in service again, and, not knowing there was only one, didn't bother looking for it until Fall '99.
3. Riding the NJT Comet IV for the first time in '97.
4. Riding Green Bus Lines 5501 talking bus in '96, and Orion CNG talking LI bus in '97.
5. Finding out there was a SEPTA strike when I went to visit back in '98. I looked like a dumbass buying tokens 4 weeks into the strike. Had to railfan on PATCO.
6. Riding the Market Frankford line M-4 for the first time later in '98.
And a finding out a few facts I never knew:
SIR has subway cars and is mostly free.
There is no free crossover at 72nd / B'way.
There are grade crossings in Queens.
A 5 minute ride on the LIRR from Forest Hills to Jamaica costs $5.50.
I was on a D train one morning in the 80s. I found myself on the J/M tracks until the train got past Essex Street and almost on the Williamsburgh. I thought the train was trainjacked or something. Then he reversed engines and used the connection back to Broadway/Lafayette.
www.forgotten-ny.com
06/01/2000
I've posted this a couple of times here but since it's requested.......When I was 13 years old and railfanning the Sea Beach line one day, I saw at the Fort Hamilton Parkway station the most out rageous looking subway car. It was shiny (stainless steel) with blue doors. I never seen a stainless steel subway car before and that includes the R-11. I got out and watched the express track testing of the now famous R-32's all day. There were no D-types on the Sea Beach that day, only BMT Standards. Are you reading this Sea Beach Fred??
Bill "Newkirk"
Your mention of the R-11s reminds me of another surprising moment. It didn't involve the R-11s, but it did have to do with the same double circular windows on each door leaf. I saw some R-10s with those same door windows; once on an entire A train at 14th St., and on occasion a single car in a train. This was one instance where I wish I had noted the car numbers, because no one can back me up on this. Hey, I've had some weird subway dreams, including one last night in which a train of R-32s kept right on going and just missed clipping a work train, but this was for real.
BTW, did you find yourself wishing you could ride those R-32s right then and there?
06/03/2000
Steve B-8 AVEXP,
Oh yes I wish I could have rode those new R-32's, but I did eventually ride them when they debuted on the original (Q) BROADWAY-Brighton Express.
That vision of a consist of R-10's with porthole windows doesn't ring a bell with me. If there was such a consist even as an experiment, it would have been documented and photographed by buffs. That kind of thing doesn't get buried and forgotten.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the pictures in the R-10 section on ths site there is an interior picture captioned as a proto-type that has the circular window in the end door. Could these be the one with the port holes on the doors?
I'm the one who posted that pic, of R7 #1575, which was rebuilt as the R10 prototype. It was brought to my attention (and proved beyond doubt) that the R7 had the traditional R1-9 square storm door and that the circular window I saw was actually that of the R11 coupled to it.
ummmm.....you didn't happen to look at the May picture on your own calender did you? Or was I halluncinating all month? [fill in your own answer there!]
06/04/2000
[ummmm.....you didn't happen to look at the May picture on your own calender did you? Or was I halluncinating all month? [fill in your own answer there!]
I believe STEVE B was talking about an entire consist of R-10's with their SIDE door panels with porthole windows. I don't believe such a consist existed, we'd all know about it by now. Only 2 R-10's had the ex R-16 porthole windowed storm door.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know about the R-10's but I remember when I commuted on the # 2 IRT they had a set of cars with porthole windows. When the rectangular side windows opened they slid down on the outside of the car. The storm door and side doors had porthole windows. I think the ones in the storm door even opened. They had a modified clerestory roof with transverse vents jutting out. Inside they had small exposed fans. In the 70's they were put in trains mixed in with later model IRT cars.
Those were two different types of cars. The R-12 and R-14 classes (essentially one class, with some differences) had the small fans and the "modified clerestory" roofs, while the R-15 class had the porthole windows on the storm and side doors.
David
And taking it a step further, the R-12s and R-14s had exterior trigger box door controls while the R-15s had door controls in the cabs - the first cars to have this feature.
You're right - it would have been documented. Even so, I rode on the A regularly for three years on Saturdays, and I know for a fact I saw some R-10s with twin circular windows on each side door leaf.
And for another surprising transit moment, yesterday marked 33 years since I saw an IRT train for the first time. We were on our way to Putnam, CT and were on the Cross Bronx Expressway when I spotted a train of bright red R-29s or R-33s on one of the lines which crosses over the highway. The three sets of doors on each side really got my attention, as I had only seen cars with four sets up until then.
On occasion I see or get to use a trunstyle that says "GO" its always at the same station, so I started to go early and watch this turnstyle. I so happens this guy comes out of the subway up the stairs to the mezzenine out the oneway iron maiden, and goes to the new stainless maiden, swipes his card and leaves the station. It appears to be a random act of kindness. There isn't anyone around, no money changes hands. I guess he is on some kind of crusade. Is this legal or what?
avid
I do that all the time. I don't care if it's legal or not.
Straight off the MTA's website:
Restriction: Unlimited Ride MetroCards may not be transferred to another person until the completion of the trip for which entry was obtained. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited.
Doesn't expressly state that it's illegal... he neither transferred the Metrocard nor took a trip.... neither did he accept or solicit compensation for the use of it...
The Star-Ledger has an article stating that the Pataki-Whitman feud that has paralyzed the Port Authority is near an end.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/fad42b.html
(The Star-Ledger has an article stating that the Pataki-Whitman feud that has paralyzed the Port Authority is near an end).
Pataki must have agreed to divert NYC subway fares to the PATH to keep the fare low, in exchange for permission to spend NYC aiport profits in upstate New York.
Please forgive the off-topic post, but I know there is much interest in streetsigns here.
Has anyone else noticed the new streetsigns in Manhattan? Sop far, I have seen them only downtown near the World Trade Center.
They are black, with white lettering, in this respect resembling the old Brooklyn street signs. However, these signs have a b&w picture on the far left side, where the Statue of Liberty formerly was. Evidently, each street has its own picture.
For example, the signs on Church St. have a picture of the Twin Towers, and the signs on Broadway show a packed parade route and display the words "Canyon of Heroes".
However, there seems to be a problem with another aspect of these signs. Some (but not all) of these signs display address numbers above the street name. In at least one case, the range shown does not match the actual numbers on the block. For example, on Church St. at Barclay St., the sign on the southwest corner says "74-77" right above "Church St." However, there is only one building on the indicated block -- the Post Office building -- and its address is 90 Church St. I am sure there are a few more such examples.
Is it possible that these new signs are only for the WTC area? Many of these new white-on-black signs replace other non-standard white-on-purple signs. So, this is why I ask if anyone has seen them anywhere else.
I used to like it when each borough had its own color scheme. (Note to Kevin Walsh: there is a set of mint-condition "whiteys" at Jamaica Ave. and 88th St.) On the other hand, I also like the concept of a single, citywide color scheme. However, instead of using green signs, they should have just extended the old white-on-black Brooklyn color scheme to the whole city. When you see these new signs, you realize how sharp-looking a white-on-black sign really is.
Streetsigns in the city ought to have a strict format, with NO exceptions to the one pattern for the whole city (or for each borough). I really don't like the idea of specialty, non-standard signs for some areas of the city. Every single streetsign in the city (or the borough) should be the same type.
And they should get the goofy pictures off of there. No Statue of Liberty, no Twin Towers, no nothing. The streetsigns should be stark and uncluttered.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Lose your voice, Sarge?
They're all over lower Manhattan; they all just appeared over night practically. The pictures are not specific to each street but more like a landmark in the area.
I still think Philly has the nicest street signs.
They have updated a number of signs in the Philly area. The same basic shape sign, with the same White Helvetica on "Interstate Standard" green, but they have added, in cases descriptors below them.
Examples include adding "Avenue of Technology" under the Market St. Signs starting around Drexel, Interstate shields with directional arrows, Second names "35th Street" "Steve Murray Way" and Arterial Markings.
I agree, these are some of the most informative strip signs I have seen. Now, if they would only improve the traffic signal and Cross Walk design...
The Philly signs are sort of an angular version of the old humpbacks. They have the cross street and house numbers, if I recall correctly, and there are four per pole: one on each side for each street. Green and white, like the Feds like it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin:
Thought you might wanna know:
there's still a black-on-white subway sign on the Northbound platform @ 59th St. on the N & R.
Whenever there's long term construction, then they use black-on-white signs. Like Williamsburg bridge or Manny B closings. Whenever they change MAPS, then they change platform signs too.
I believe these street signs are being funded (partially?) by the Downtown Alliance. Up until last week I lived on John Street, and one night a week or two ago coming home late at night from the subway entrance at Fulton/William I noticed workers putting up the new signs on my block. I asked if I could have the old signs they were taking down, they said no, "We have to return them." Then I asked where they were installing them and he looked at a clipboard and said, "south of Fulton, river to river." I also noticed the new sign they were putting up in front of me at the SW corner of William and John Streets had incorrect address numbers (72-80 pointing west of William, but 80 is two buildings to the east of William).
I assume it's not really going to be river to river, since Battery Park City, which isn't part of the Downtown Alliance, doesn't look like it's getting the new signs.
Some/all of the white-on-brown historic district signs were not replaced, and the white-on-green "Louise Nevelson Plaza" signs were not replaced either, although I think "Vietnam Veterans Plaza" and "Peter Minuit Plaza" were, so I don't know why they didn't make new signs for all of them.
Other pictures on the signs I 've seen include ships at the South Street Seaport; one of the Staten Island Ferry boats; the sign on the Fraunces Tavern building; the Statue of Liberty (irony here); and the NY Stock Exchange.
Y'know, the green and whites are only abt 10-15 years old. The blue and white humpbacks lasted over 50 years in some cases. The shelf life, or pole life, of street signs is decreasing rapidly....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I noticed them Tuesday on Broadway, Church and NAssau Streets along Fulton while exiting from work at the WTC. They look kinda nice, with a throwback feel.
Yikes! I missed these, and I was on Greenwich in Tribeca today, pretty close...
Exceptions to the green & white rule...
Blue and white in midtown
Maroon and white in historic districts
Retro humpbacks on Park Ave in the 60s
For a strange mutation of the green on whites, see the extra-large ones on Kings Highway in the East 50s. The DOT guy must have been nearsighted.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think you mean white on green. I have seen them.....
3TM
They are along Water St, where I am currently employed.....
3TM
I was wondering what everyone's prefered method of tyrnstyling was. I prefer the hip method where I give the metal bar a good wack with my hips which then propells it around. Other methods include the gutt, croth, foot and hand. Has anyone determined which is the best?
Rolling hip. If I've taken Viagra I just vault over it.
Beware of Iron maidens and Viagra
avid
I always move the turnstile with my hand.
Don't take Viagra before a subway trip, wait till you reach your destination! :-)
I usually use my hand, for no reason in particular.
Here's another question - what's your favorite model of turnstyle. I used to like the large ones (I think IND) that had a raised box that you put the token into, and when you put the token in, it made a loud noise.
Has anyone ever done any research into the various models of turnstyles through the years or have any pictures? I've often wondered what the different parts of turnstyles are called.
I push with my hand. This comes from experience. When I was a College Aide for NYCT, I helped test the Automatic Fare Collection system. I had an AFC card (it didn't have a name yet) that I would use at the few stations that had swipe readers. At Union Square (my school station, where I boarded to head for the Jay Street building), one of the turnstiles would "beep" but it wouldn't unlock. Oh, the pain, the pain :-)
David
I usually push with the hand, but one of my friends swipes the card, jumps over, then rotates the turnstile arm. Every time, even when its crowded.
I swope with my righte hande and I waive the barre with my lefte.
wayne
Either hip or hand. I never just walk through - my hight is such that if I hit the bar head-on, th eresults can be _very_ uncomfortable;-).
subfan
Since my commute includes both PATCO and the MFL I have been getting much railfan window experiance. From my observations the front seat seems to be the most popular seat on the train. On the MFL after the railfan seat is vacated it will be filled again within 5 seconds. I was wondering about proper railfan window etiquitte. If the person in the RFS gets up, who gets the seat next. It is the person sitting in the #2 railfan seat or the person standing at the railfan storm door. If there is no person standing at the RFSD does a person standing elsewhere in the train get the RFW or should the #2 person move into the #1 seat and the random standee then gets the #2.
If I am standing at the RFSD and the train fills up sould I move aside to give the others in the train a view out the window? If I am sitting in the #1 RFS should I be expected to share the seat with someone else to give them a view or can i put my bag on the other seat. If I am not at the #1 RFS can I expect the person who is sittng there to let me sit with them.
Finally, on PATCO can I stand at the RFSD dspite the fact I may be annoying the driver?
a)Seat #2 gets seat#1
b) Standee has option to continue to stand or lung for seat #2
c) If no standee, floating standee has option to get RFSD or seat #2
d) never yeild RFSD unless you receive the Railfan Secret Signal. (This varies from day to day, Check heypauls Secret signal of the day code book.)
e)Use Secret signal for vacant seat cargo use. (See above)
f) If the seatees do not respond to the Secret signal begin a hacking cough or flatulate with gusto!
a)Seat #2 gets seat#1
b) Standee has option to continue to stand or lung for seat #2
c) If no standee, floating standee has option to get RFSD or seat #2
d) never yeild RFSD unless you receive the Railfan Secret Signal. (This varies from day to day, Check heypauls Secret signal of the day code book.)
e)Use Secret signal for vacant seat cargo use. (See above)
f) If the seatees do not respond to the Secret signal begin a hacking cough or flatulate with gusto!
avid
i have frequently run into non railfans reading a newspaper, while they are standing in front of the meager window of a slant 40 q... i tried all the signals in the book... as well as looking to my mother hoping that she would ask the person to let her 8 year old get to the window... all to no avail... i was particularly enraged yesterday when i noticed the person reading an article on sport utility vehicles... i know it was wrong, but i wished to myself that he buy one and contribute $10,000 - $15,000 to the auto makers' profits...
An SUV for $15,000?
[An SUV for $15,000?]
Maybe a Sportage or a Tracker, and even then it would have to be a really good deal. No, what heypaul meant is that an automaker can earn up to $15,000 profit on the sale of an SUV, which is several times what it would make on the sale of almost any other type of automobile. In other words, the demand for SUVs is so strong that the automakers can engage in good, old fashioned price gouging and charge whatever the market'll bear - which is a lot. And that's not even to mention the dealer's price gouging. That Suburban that you buy for $45,000 actually would be in the low 30's if GM got its "normal" profit margin on the sale. Ah, the joys of the free market ...
This is why my wife and I are considering a minivan rather than an SUV for our next vehicle. You can get terrific deals on minivans, mainly because the people who normally would have considered them are buying SUV's instead.
Interesting. When I bought my Jeep, the salesman claimed the dealership would be making $700.00 profit on it. I took it with a grain of salt, especially when he said, "You're getting one helluva deal."
No kidding, give me, give me, give me, now!!!!
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!!! At least, that what your handle means. Please change it. We will all sleep easier.
borg and marty are apparently the same person?
What's up with that?
WAZZZZZZZAP DUDES!!!! Not bad, how did you figure that one out. I'm impressed. If you really have to know, I am so addicted to subtalk, that I have my computer at home and at work under an ALIAS.
As for "BORG" well that's another story. We don't have time right now and this is not the "BORG" half hour comedy show anyway. So back to subtalk please .
By the way in the l980's, which police precinct had the highest crime rate and how did that affect ridership on the system?
So? You can use the same name at home and at work.
Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ughliest!
wayne
[Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ugliest!]
Last I heard, dealers were charging $5,000 to $7,000 over MSRP for them.
I was looking at one a couple of weeks ago, thinking that in another year or so I might be interested in one as a supplement to my Windstar - after all, Chrysler has targeted the vehicle for the minivan crowd that doesn't need the minivan any more but still likes the more upright seating position. I ruled it out after realizing that there was no way a scenicked Ntrak module would fit, even with the seats down (the rear opening is too narrow for sideways entry and the seats still come up too high when folded), the driver's seat design is terrible, even with the partial power adjustment, and Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I can't fit in it at the same time - it's so narrow our shoulders were touching. While I was there, though, the salesman was smiling broadly - he had just delivered another fully-loaded one as an even swap for a '99 Escalade with less than 6000 miles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re price gouging on the PT Cruiser]
[While I was there, though, the salesman was smiling broadly - he had just delivered another fully-loaded one as an even swap for a '99 Escalade with less than 6000 miles.]
I just did a little price checking on Edmund's. MSRP on a PT Cruiser is about $15,500, say maybe $18,000 fully loaded. The trade in value of a 1999 Escalade (the Cadillac version of the Chevy Tahoe), with the low-mileage adjustment, is about $32,000.
Some schmuck just flushed about $14,000 down the toilet so he could be the first schmuck on his block to own a PT Cruiser. Wouldn't it be a laugh if the PT Cruiser got stolen, and the insurance company offered to settle for $18,000?
I'll agree he was a schmuck, but perhaps not QUITE that big of one ... the sticker on the one I was nosing at was over $23K and it wasn't quite fully loaded - the salesman said the one swapped for the Escalade stickered a little bit higher (leather seats and one other option, IIRC).
Of course, anyone who would pay even $23K for one of those fits the definition anyway, so what the heck. I didn't pay that much for my '96 Windstar, and it has every option except leather seats. (MSRP was nearly $30K, but I bought it as a leftover in February '97.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those who would pay THAT for a PT Cruiser? Imbeciles! Chowderheads! Morons!
wayne
Let's see - what else would Moe say? Cricketheads, onionheads, meatheads, birdbrains, lamebrains. etc., etc.:-)
UGLY is correct. Supposedly it was "designed" to reflect the Chrysler Airflow. That was the inspiration for the slope of the dash of the PCC car, and we all know the beauty of the PCC.
I've seen the PT Cruiser, and it does win the Ugly Car Contest. The other contestants are the New Beetle (yecch!) and the new Ford product (forget the name), which resembles a frog that was stepped on. The colors seen are pitrid.
Next to any of them, a C-type is beautiful.
Speaking of "retro-designed" cars, I thought rumors were going around that to spice up their sales, Ford was going to re-introduce limited editions of the 1965 Mustang. And wasn't Chrysler toying with coming out with a similar idea with limited editions of the 1969 Dodge Charger (General Lee)?
Maybe there's nothing to this, but since we were on the subject of cars...
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, if Lionel could reissue all "Big Three" American Flyer passenger sets (Missouri Pacific, Northern Pacific, and Union Pacific) which Gilbert put out, and I have both versions of each, then anything is possible.:-)
>>>Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ughliest! <<<
Yeah, aren't they, they look like a volkswagen beetle w/a glandular condition. Cannot understand why they are so popular.
Peace,
ANDEE
All you can really do is hope the newspaper reader is a nice person. Once, I was on an R32 E train and someone was reading the paper while leaning against the storm door and he just moved to the first set of doors on the left side.
All you can really do is hope the newspaper reader is a nice person. Once, I was on an R32 E train and someone was reading the paper while leaning against the storm door and he just moved to the first set of doors on the left side. BTW, what r the secret signals?
a questions was raised about the secret railfan signals...
they are changed every 8 hours to prevent the people with the seed pods from taking over...
the secret signal is usually embedded in avid readers' messages... you have to ignore the first 10 words of the message, then circle every 7th letter henceforth...
for example: this afternoon's secret signal was:
"it looks like rain outside"
that was only good until 6 pm... see avid's post on turnstyle styles for this evening's secret word...
I honestly don't like this. I propose the signal be changed to be having to name the type of subway car you are on and what transfers are available at the next transfer point. For instance, if you were on a southbound 6 at 77th, say to the person this is an R62 train, the next transfers available are to the 4, 5, N, and R at 59th Street.
No, you have to use the old name.
This is an R-62 on the IRT Pelham-Lexington Local to the City Hall Loop, transfer is available at the next stop, 59th Street, to the BMT Astoria-Broadway-Sea Beach, BMT Queens Boulevard-4th Avenue Local, and IRT Dyre-West Farms-Lexington Express and Jerome-Lexington Express.
Nope! I am a modern railfan, I have to be current. Besides, if the person at the window is not a railfan, they aren't going to have a clue as to what the IRT Dyre-West Farms-Lexington Express is.
But that's the whole idea, isn't it? I like the idea of saying "This is a Redbird R-33 7th Ave. White Plains Rd. express", and I still use IND, BMT, and IRT regularly.
When people ask me about my work badge, I invariably get the same reaction when I tell them we make Coriolis mass flowmeters: HUH?!? What's that?
I say dispense with this "secret signal" business.
I'm all in favor of drawing straws or doing a coin flip to decide who gets the rail fan window.
If that doesn't work, just resort to body blows and a good SMACK-DOWN. That should get your point across, Scotty-Too Hotty style!
Doug aka BMTman
they move away when I shoot out the railfan window with my vidieo camera .........!!!!!!!!
Yes, but why not ASK the person if they wouldn't mind you videotaping through the window. I liked your Flushing Line video (#7 Train), but noticed a couple of times that you seemed to just "bum rush" or "Bogart" your way to the railfan window.
A little courtesy can go a long way...
Doug aka BMTman
I said first excuse me then with eye contact a non verbal OK was given to me by the person near the railfan window...
remember I shoot away from people because of how uncomfortable it makes persons feel sime UFO camcorder
recording them on the subway train ... I am not there as a peeping tom on passengers etc.....
The camera didnt show how the persons near the railfan window understood perfectly what i was doing and
had no problem.......well most of the time anyway .........gee I hope my vidieos did not made me look rude & disrespectful ..!! it did not seem that way when I was shooting the vidieos
Oh well i had to quickly ""set up" before the train started moving
many times i tell motormen that i am not shooting them just thru the window... oh well .. its new york city but
every time i bumped into somebody i always say excuse me !!!!!
Most people when they saw my vidieo camera just got out of the way ......I know it might have looked bad..... oh well...
Thank you for your comment on some of my vidieos thank you sir .....!!!!!
......a follow up comment is this ....shooting 12 hours each day 6 days in a row maybe 4 hours sleep at the seton hotel
at 40 th & lexington streets then standing on your feet all day holding on to your tripod for dear life..& CAMCORDER .......
and your legs & feet ache and swell.............I guess I might have lost it remember the vidieo is permanent B.S. is temporary.....
I hope I wasnt rude I dont want to join rudy G .....!!!!!
[for example: this afternoon's secret signal was:
"it looks like rain outside"]
Wasn't that the signal that Ralph was supposed to yell out the window to get Norton to do the sleepwalking act when Ralph got the bad back bowling? Actually it was "It certainly looks like ran tonight!!!"
My favorite secret signal was the signal to the resistance that D-Day was coming in "The Longest Day" :"John has a long mustache"
the sarge knows his honeymooners better than i do... it certainly was: it certainly looks like rain tonight...
You can always do what I saw someone do on the LIRR (inone of their ancient "double-deckers") about 30 years ago.
Commuter in aisle has the NY Times opened fully. Commuter's hat in lower lever seating keeps getting hit by the bottom of the newspaper. The paper reader doesn't even notice he is bouncing his paper off the lower-level commuter's hat.
The lower level commuter took out his cigarette lighter and ignited the bottom of the aisle reader's paper.
You never saw 100 people clear out of a LIRR car so fast.....
FOR SUBTALKERS EYES ONLY...
For those who have misplaced there Secret Signal of the day code book.
Page 1003 Part XXLCD.
Todays signal is " The price of tomatoes is high , compared to rising interest rates, don't you think?"
The counter sign is "You think?"
avid
avid... good going... remember if someone gives the countersign proving he is a subtalker, leave the train immediately before the other person starts foaming... the secret password system is to protect us from fellow subtalkers...
btw... before pigs tries to shoot you down for writing your roman numerals in reverse order, everyone should consult section 8-4F which explains the proper way to code roman numerals...
.........it is simple .....!! when i board a subway with a railfan window .....I just say "excuse me I would like to shoot
thru the window please "" usually no problem at all ........especially when I am using my vidieo camera........
They probably are taking the word "shoot" too literally and thats why they're getting the hell outta your way!!!
Yeah, you gotta watch out for those machine gun camcorders!:-)
...........yea and my machine gun camcorder a genuine sony tr416 shoots with a 7.2v dc power.........
or my old tr 86 shoots with a 6 v dc dower which is just enough to gun down any good redbird !!!!!!!!!!
my new tr416 shoots at an even lower light lux a natural 0.4 light lux minimum BEFORE the ""NIGHTSHOT"
feature !!!! The november 1999 vidieos were shot with my tr86 with a natural 0.6 light lux & she LIT UP THE TUNNELS
so you can see very well especially the A train to far rockways during the underground segments .
This fall ( hopefully october ) with a better natural light lux the lowest made ever 0.4 will make my
"" MACHINE GUN SHOOTER CAMCORDER " with a wide angel camcorder conversion lens 0.42X hard to beat.....
Who knows soon I will become president of the greatest ever ""rail fan window view subway vidieos" ever!!
So ghety out your ballots............my still photography of rail transit systems arent that bad either..!!!!!
thank you for all of your support ( especially to the last two posts & thoise who posted ) thank you .....!!!!!
In as much as we are talking etiquette, the question regarding bothering the train operator if you wish to stand at the storm door could probably be best answered as.....ASK the train operator if he/she doesn't mind you there!
......I just tell them im shooting the train & out of the front window ONLY & not at them .....sometimes they want to be
included in the vidieo however I tell them they could allow me to shoot thier hands on the controls with thier permission ..!!
works for me every time I visit .....!!!!!!..
If you have read my prior postings you know it has been many years since I was in NYC, but I am surprised by your comments about talking with the TO and taping him. I remeber the TO being locked away in his little cab with no way to see or communicate with him from within the train. What has changed?
In pre air conditioned times, the motorman might prop his door open a little to get a flow of air through his open window, giving a glance of his gloved hand on the throttle, but that was rare, and not SOP.
I also remember the motormen dressed in striped overalls and caps wearing leather gloves. Are they now in uniform?
>>>I also remember the motormen dressed in striped overalls and caps wearing leather gloves. Are they now in uniform? <<<
Yes, they got rid of those silly "Casey Jones" outfits some time ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the name of that hinged device that would clip on to the door and door frame, holding the door open those two inches. Those two inches allowed many moments of spying on the Motorman. Some would close the door, while otheres would some times open the door all the way and spoil the railfan window. I remember very early homemade models made of wood. Any one know the name?
avid
well a nice motorman named mr allen onthe redbird # 5 talked me to death last march 2000... the vidieo lasts four hours ....
but you're forgetting the cardnal rules of commuting.
1) Don't talk to anybody.
2) Don't make eye contact.
3) Keep your eyes focused on 1 of 2 places, at your feet or out the window.
4) Don't let on that your might actually like your commute or trains im general.
I never yield the RFW or the RFSD if I am in a Slant R40. If I am travelling with my Sub Talk friends, I always share the RFW/RFSD. I have one friend I travel with often and when we get an R38 I always yield the RFW.
If the RFW or RFSD is occupied and I am alone, I never attempt to gain access to it directly, rather, I will stand back at the first Standee Pole and try to watch it from there. Otherwise I will take it. If I have the RFW or RFSD and a child under 12 comes along I share it. If I have the RFW or RFSD and an older person comes along I yield it if I don't like their looks. If they are non-threatening in their appearance and demeanor I will share it.
wayne
I have noticed that the signaling on PATCO was done in by US&S. All the signals are made by US&S and they are numbered in the US&S style (40L, 40R etc). However unlike the PRR US&S installed electric switches at all the interlockings on the above ground portion. However, today while riding on the old 1936 portion in Camden, I noticed what looked to be an electro-penumatic switch at the interlocking that is just under the Ben franklin Br. on the NJ side. I tried to check the 8th interlocking on the PA side but it was too dark. Is the old 1936 portion still using EP switches? Also what type of switches does the MFL use because its signals are also US&S.
CP1 Grand Central Split upper lower levels
CP3 Portal to Tunnels of Park Av
CP4 Prior to Split of Harlem/New Haven or Hudson Division
Cp5 Hudson Line 144 st
Split Between Harlem Line and Hudson Lines
CP6 Hudson Line Walton Av
CP7 Hudson Line Alexander Hamilton Bridge
BM after MP9
CP10 North of Marble Hill Station
CP11 South of Spuytn Duyvil Station
CP12 Jct of West Side Connection and the Hudson Line
CP19 Between Greystone and Hastings Station s
CP25 South of Tarrytown Stations
CP26 South of Philipse Manor
CP33 South of Croton Harmon
CP34 North of Croton Harmon south ends of Yards
Cp35 North end of Croton Yards
CP36 South of Osca Tunnel bet MP36 and MP37 before Cortlandt Station,
CP40 Entrance to Peekskill Station
CP48 Between Manitou and Garrison Station s
CP53 North of Cold Spring Station
CP58 Connection to Beacon Lne South of Beacon Station
CP61 from 3 tracks to 2 Tracks North of Beacon
Station
Cp64 South of New Hamburg Station Hudson Line
CP72 south of Poughkeepsie Station
CP75 North of Poughkeepsie at the Division Post for Metro North
HARLEM LINE
CP106 In the Melrose Tunnel S of t he Station
CP112 Wiithin the Woodlawn Station Area
and Split to New Haven Line
CP113 North of Mt Vernon West Station
CP116 South of Crestwood Station
2 to 3 tracks
CP117 North of Crestwood frmo 3 tracks to 2 tracks again
CP119 S of Scarsdale Station
CP121 N of Harstdale
CP123 S of N White Plains
CP124 N of N White Plains and Entr to Yard
CP132 S of Chappaqua Station
CP143 S of Goldens Bridge Station
CP152 Entr to Brewster Yard South of thestation
Brewster
CP153 Entrance to the North End of the Yard and North of the Station Brewster north
CP154 from 2 tracks to 1 Track
CP155 Entr to Beacon Line Connection
PAWL N of Pawling Station
DOVE BROOK N of Dover Plains Station
NEW HAVEN LINE
CP212 Connection to Harlem Line BEFORE the Bridge over the Harlem Line and all switches,,,3 tracks to 4 tracks
CP216 Connection to AMTRAK S of New Rochelle Station
CP217 North of New Rochelle Staiton
CP223 Between Harrison and Rye Stations
CP229 between Greenwich and Cos Cob Station s
CP232 CP233 Stamford Station
CP234 Yard Connect North of Stamford Station
CP235 Connection to New Canaan
Branch
CP240 S of S Norwalk Station
CP241 N of Norwalk Station and COnnection to Danbury Branch
CP244 N of Westport Station
CP255 S of Bridgeport Station
CP256 N of Bridgeport Station
CP257 Connection to Bridgewport Yards
CP261 COnnection to Waterbury Line
Cp271 CP272 New Haven Station West
Cp273 East ofthe Staton
CP274 Boston Connection
NEW CAANAN Branch
CP307 S of New Canaan
Danbury Branch
W A L K is connection to Danbury Line
GLOVE is S of Merritt 7 Staion
WILT is N of Wilton Staton
HILL is N of Branchville Station
DANN is S of Danbury Station
WATERBURY Line
CP500 is Connection to Main Line or 261 CP
HAT is conection to Danbury
BEAK is S of Beacon Falls Staiotn
EAGLE is S of Waterbury Station
BEACON LINE
River is Connection to Hudson Line
Hope is at Hopwell station
HOLM is at Holmes Staton
POND is the Connection to the Harlem Line
Empire (MP 1.0) after Tunnels from Penn Station A tower
Jervis (MP 1.5) West 49 st approx
Inwood MP9.9 Before the Bridge to the Bronx
Harold Interlocking
Pelham Bay MP15 before Hutch River Bridge
CP216 Connection to the New Haven Line
Penn Staton Leaving
in the North River Tunnels
CP MID MP1.5
TUnnel Exit
BERGEN MP3.7
ALLIED MP 4.o
PORTAL MP 6.0 at the Bridge
SWIFT MP 7.2
HUDSON 7.2 at eh Yards
HARRISON 8.3 at Harrison Station
DOCK 8.5 Before Newark Station
CLIFF MP 9.7
HUNTER MP 10.5 Connection to NK NJT
HIGH to NK Tower at .3
Lehigh Valley Line
HAYNES MP 11.3 S of Newark Airport Station
LANE MP 12.3 North of N Elizabeth Staton
and the Dumont Yards
ELMORA MP 14.7 before the Rahway Station
UNIION
GRAW connection to N Jersey Coast NJT South of Rahway Station
ISELIN MP 22.8 N of Metro Park
MENLO MP 23.7 S of Metro Park
LINCOLN MP 26 within the Metuchen Staton Area
EDISON MP 28.1 NOrth of Edison Staton
COUNTY is the Connecton to Jersey Av NJT Staton
MIDWAY is the Midway Yard
NASSAU is North of Princeton JCT
HAM is North of Trenton Station at the Yards
MP 55.7
Milham is the Old Tower South of MP 54
FAIR is ths Northern Entrance to the Trenton Staton
MP 56.4
MORRIS MP 58.3 athe Morrisville Yards and COnnections
If anyone wants the Tower Lists,,let me know
I have
Penn to Harrisburg(State)
Penn to Perry
Penn to CP V.
Trenton to Penn
Washington Terminal Station Area
One small correction: Elmora is just South of the Elizabeth Station. Union is the tower on the line to Trenton just South of Rahway Station.
Being in the bus tour business, I am constantly being sent brochures by different tourist attractions asking me to bring them groups. I just received one from the Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley RR that just opened in April of this year. They run excursion trains between Cooperstown, NY & Milford, NY. They are owned & operated by the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society. I plan to drive up there one Sunday to check them out. Their web site is www.lrhs.com
Saw another set of R142 waiting on the freight tracks near the New Lots station(L) yesterday around 7:30pm. It should be at its new home by now.............
3Train#2119Mike
3Train#2119Mike,
glad you were at least able to make a clean sighting. Why not let Stef know -- so he'll get advance notice and be in position (by his window) for 'em at the yard...
just a thought.
Doug aka BMTman
Where and when could I go to see an R142. I've never actually seen one with my own eyes before, and I would like to photogpraph it.
-Daniel
New Yok Area Railraods
New photos added to SIR, BMT/IND and NY Cross-Harbor pages.
Dyre Line, trains run from Pelham Pkwy to Baychester Av on the test track most weekdays and sometimes Saturdays, though lately they seem to only return to Pelham during the lunch hour, which is around noon. They also run on the Rockaway line, though not as often as the Dyre. When I saw it there they went both directions on the Southbound track from just S. of Howard Beach to Broad Channel, causing Southbound A delays. They pulled into Howard Beach northbound express track at high noon to allow the testers to go to lunch.
Why are they running the R142s to the Rockaways? It's not like they're ever going to run in regular service there? Test them on White Plains Road so I can see 'em. But last Friday I did get to see a set of 142s running down the WPR middle track, but just for a few seconds because it zipped right by my slowpoke R33 uptown #2 train. I got a quick peak at the rear of the train. Very nice.
The cars are being tested where there's space available to test them. There's just so much mainline space available.
The testing locations are on the Dyre Avenue Line and the Rockaway Line.
David
How about the northbound Sea Beach Express track? Nice run, not in use for revenue trains, etc .....
And Sea Beach Fred would approve, too, even if the equipment is "foreign" to the line :)
--Mark
06/03/2000
[How about the northbound Sea Beach Express track? Nice run, not in use for revenue trains, etc .....
And Sea Beach Fred would approve, too, even if the equipment is "foreign" to the line :)
With on the on going resignaling of the West End Line, sometimes the (B)'s are routed up or down the Sea Beach depending if they have to close that one track for that weekend.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R 142 School car is running on M Track on the White Plains Road line from Bronx Park East to Burke Ave. I had fun with that R 142 and passing the slow R 33'S.
Dave,
What is the top speed you've achieved in the R-142s, and how would you rate the acceleration compared to the Redbirds and R-62s?
My top speed was 43MPH going south approching Pelham Parkway. As far as acceleration its slower starting up but once it picks up it maintains good speed. It also alittle slower stopping as well.
As far as the Average speed the R 142 should do alittle better then the R 62'S.
Thanks for that repair, Dave. So from your explanation, can I assume you feel that they will maintain speed better going up grades than the current fleet since the field shunt mod?
Thanks for that reply, Dave. So from your explanation, can I assume you feel that they will maintain speed better going up grades than the current fleet since the field shunt mod?
Yes, You would be currect.
I've seen the 142's pass Simpson Street going southbound almost every weekday night around 10 PM for the past 2 -3 weeks.
Must be doing not in service route tests. I would imagine the same is being done on the Pelham line. Damn, I wish I lived within visual range of some sort of el.
Take the Dyre Av 5 train southbound. When you pass over the White Plains Rd. track, on the right, should be a 5 car set of R 142's. If you can't see them there, then you can always see them in the shop, but not the full car, just the end.
Clark Palicka
Where and when could I go to see an R142. I've never actually seen one with my own eyes before, and I would like to photogpraph it.
-Daniel
New York Area Railraods
New photos added to SIR, BMT/IND and NY Cross-Harbor pages.
The New York & Atlantic Railway moves the cars from Fresh Pond Yard (where they were brought down from Yonkers by the NY Connecting RR and turned over to NY&A) to the NYCT's IRT/BMT/LIRR connection in the New Lots section of Brooklyn.
The interchange between NY&A and NYCT occurs at or near Linden Shops (nearest subway station is New Lots Ave. on the "L"). A good vantage point from which to view the interchange and/or "convoy" of cars coming down the Bay Ridge LIRR Line would be from the Livonia station of the "L".
The deliveries of the R-142's is sporadic and from what I heard is done on an almost "spur-of-the-moment" basis from the manufacturer, so obtaining a "schedule" of car delivery dates is almost impossible.
Good luck in your attempts to capture any of these elusive cars on film.
Doug aka BMTman
F-Interlocking R-PSCC
Hunterspoint Station and Eastward,including the Montauck Cutoff Connection
HAROLD
WOOD R-Harold Woodside Station to Kew Gardens Station
JAY ----from Metro Av to Van Wck into the Station
,and the areas in the RIchmond Hill connector lead into Dunton
HALL --East of Jamiaca station including Montauk Connecting Tracks
.Holban Yard to Rosedale Station
HOLLIS --R-QUeens ,West of Hillside Yard to Queens VIllage Station
QUEENS --Tower is West of belmont Race Tracks , from Belmont Raceway to Floral Park Station
NASSAU from New Hyde Park to Westbury inclding Oyster Bay Connection ,,,Tower is East of Mineola Staiton
DIVIDE ,,,East and West of Hicksville,including Port Jeff Connection ,,Tower is between the PJ and Main Line Split
BETH
---R--Divide,,West of Bethpage to East,,inclding the Central Track Connection
FARM
Farmingddale East and West
JS R-Divide ,,,,Pinelawn to points East of Wyndach
BRENT r-Divide
Deer Park to Central Islp
KO R-Divide
West of Ronkonkoma to East including the Yard
VALLEY ,,Tower is East of Sttion
,,,from West of VS to Lynbrook including Far Rocka and the Long Beach tracks into Lynbrook
ROCKY,,R--Valley.Babylon
,,Rockville Ctr to Freeport
PORT ,,R-same,,,Freeport Sation and the Layup tracks
,,east of the Freeport Sation
WANTAGH
R--Same
,Merrick to Massapequa
AMITYVILLE--R--same
..Mass Park to Lindenhrst
BABYLON--
Tower is Wast of Staton
,Central Branch into Babylon including the Yard East of Station (Babylon)
Y,from 2 tracks into the 1 track section before Patchoque ,,,,
PD is East of Patchoque is where is the tower is '
----Controls east and west of the station
MS is Bellport to East of Mastic Shirley with all Layup tracks east of Mastic Shirley
BROOK is Flatbush Av Sttion ,,Tower is in the Staiton
VAN is east of the point mentioned,,controls the Yard
to Nostrand Av
DUNTON is frmo ENY to the Yard,,and into Morris PkLeads Area
VALLEY is Valley Stream Station
Tower is After the Staion ,,after the Far Rockaway Branch Tracks
and the West Hempstead Lead Tracks
also controls the Lynbrook statoin and Far Rock Branches ,the Long Beach Branch to Oceanside only
LEAD is Island Pk to Long Beach ,,Tower is North of Long BEach Station and Yard
GARDEN ,,,R-Queens
...Garden City to Hempstead Branch Tracks and the Mitchell Field Tracks,,Floral Pk to Hempstead Staton
BETH ,R-Divide
Central Line fromMain Line to Montauck ,Babylon INterlocking
NASSAU ,,East Willeston to Glen Head
LOCUST Sea Cliff to Oyster Bay
DIVIDE frmo Divide Tower to Syosett
AMOTT -R_Divide,,,,,Syosett
to Cold Spring
HUNT R--Divide
East and West of Huntington including all Yard Tracks
DUKE R-Divide
Greenlawn to Nortport
FOX---R-Diviide
Northport to Kings Park
POST R-Divide
Smithtown to St James
STONY R-Divide
St James to East of Stony Broook
JEFF
R--Divide
Port Jefferson Yard and Station
WOOD R-Harold
from the Amtrak Tracks to Woodside
SHEA--R-Harold
Shea Stadium and the Yard
BAY R-Harold
from Flushing to Little Neck
GREAT NECK R-Harold
Great Neck to Port Washnton
VALLEY control the West Hempstead Branch
I went on a railfanning trip to Philly today. Rode the Market-Frankford line to both ends. At the 69st end I transfered to the SEPTA Route 100 Norristown line. I got to say, those things can fly. Fast acceleration and great top speed. Wish the NYCTA system was like that. Even the subway system seems faster. Next time I going to venture on the PATCO and local trolleys.
Some questions:
1) How come SEPTA token booths don't sell tokens. The clerk told me to buy it from the vending machine. They collect fare if you dont have a token and buzz you thought the turnstyle.
2) Why are some subway stations only 2 or 3 blocks apart?
3) How are the PATCO trains? How much does it cause to go from 15st to Lindenwood?
The view from the route 100 Norristown terminal is great. Birds eye view of the SEPTA rail station and the bridge over the river. Too bad I didn't have a camera.
[How are the PATCO trains? How much does it cause to go from 15st to Lindenwood?]
Any Phila station to Woodcrest, Ashland or Lindenwold is $1.85 each way. Consider riding the NJT Phila-Atlantic City train either way between 30th Street and Lindenwold and PATCO the other way. NJT shares former PRR/PRSL right of way with PATCO from Haddonfield to Lindenwold (separate track). NJT fare is $3 between 30th St and Lindenwold.
Bob
If you just want to ride round trip on PATCO to Lindenwold and back w/o exiting the system its just 75 cents. Buy a one trip, All Philly stations ticket and then just ride out to Lindenwold. get off the train and then wait or another one to leave westbound. the Stations are so close in Centre City beause 8th is PATCO, 11th is reading terminal, 13th is Subway Surface terminal and 15th is City Hall/Suburban Station.
Why is Suburban Station called that? Because of it's service to the suburbs?
What was it, Reading or PRR?
Suburban is called that because of the two words in the name. Sub means under, and urban is an adjective to describe the area of Philadelphia the station is in. Under Urban=Suburban.
No, it's called Suburban because the original (60 years ago)Pennsylvania RR configuration was 1) many trains went into Center City Philadelphia on an elevated structure (now replaced by JFK Blvd) into Broad St Station (long gone). Through trains that didn't go into Broad St. and then turn around stopped only in North Philadelphia, the one through station in Philadelphia at the time.
Then they built 30th St. Station so 1) they could tear down the so-called Chinese Wall, and 2) so all main line trains through Philadelphia could stop a mere 1.5 miles from City Hall rather than 4 miles away in North Philadelphia, Broad and Glenwood.
The elevated wall's replacement was a short underground tunnel from 24-16 St. so PRR trains from the SUBURBs could go all the way into Center City (16 & the new JFK Blvd., originally called Pennsylvania Blvd, I believe.) Hence the name "Penn Suburban Station". Reading Line trains still went into Reading Terminal from the north along their own elevated wall.
In the early 80s they connected the two by building Market East station to replace Reading Terminal, tearing down the wall (or at least they should have) and connecting the two lines underneath Filbert St., also renaming Penn Suburban Station to be merely Suburban Station. Now the two commuter train systems are merged to be like the RER in Paris, which truly is a great idea.
Each R# line is made up of a Pennsylvania RR line through the Center City tunnel continuing as a Reading RR line. That's why on the map they look so confusing and why many go through two North Philadelphia station: the PRR station and the Reading RR station.
Actually Suburban Station was built in the 30', almost 20 years b4 they tore down Broad St. The PRR probably saw the writing on the wall and used the Suburban Station for the commuter trains and Broad St. for the remaining long distance trains ntill the long distance train market dried up and all service could be dirverted into 30th St.
Suburban Station opened in 1930; Broad Street Station closed in 1952. PRSL trains to the shore originated in Broad Street until it closed, then had to start at 30th St; steam and diesel couldn't use the tunnel.
Bob
If you do this, remember to leave PATCO at a different station in Phila than the one you entered. Otherwise, your ticket will not pass thru the turnstile and you'll have to deal with the Control Center. It's a little-known thing and PATCO doesn't publicize it but it is a cheap way to tour the system. Of course, as I've always said, PATCO is still a bargain regardless of the recent fare increase.
Another way to tour some rail lines in this corridor is to start at 30th St, take NJT's Atlantic City train to Lindenwold and change there for PATCO back to Phila, transferring to the Market-Frankford El at 8th-Market to return to 30th St if need be (or walking from 16th-Locust to Suburban Station, roughly four blocks).
[Another way to tour some rail lines in this corridor is to start at 30th St, take NJT's Atlantic City train to Lindenwold and change there for PATCO back to Phila, transferring to the Market-Frankford El at 8th-Market to return to 30th St if need be (or walking from 16th-Locust to Suburban Station, roughly four blocks).]
Or walk back (in the subway concourse) from 15/16th or forward (in the subway concourse) from 12/13th to the Broad Street Subway and take it one stop north to Market-Frankford El or subway surface light rail (trolleys) at City Hall (free transfer from BSS) or railfan the BSS first. Or walk the subway concourse from 12/13 or 15/16 to Suburban Station.
Bob
The main purpose of the guys in the little booth is to give and accept transfers to and from bus routes. In the distant past they also made change and sold tokens. But it's the transfer dispersal and verification that is their main job.
Chicago and Baltimore have the same thing, though Baltimore doesn't have transfers anymore, rather the guy gives out and verifies the DayPass now.
the booth guys give out maps and sell passes. The day pass is $5 for unlimited rides on buses and all Septa subways, plus one free regional rail ride. Since regional rail fare to Trenton is $5, so it's basically free rides all day in Philly if you go the cheap way.
BTW: I have a map of SEPTA identical to the one on the website and on the regional rail trains which folds up to the size of a credit card. I got it at Walnut-Locust, the booth guy said it costs $2 but he gave it to me for free.
1. Does it actually cost $2?
2. Where can I get another one? All I keep getting are those Center City only ones.
Not all booths sell tokens/passes and the ones that do don't all do it full time. (It's like a Murphy's Law - when you're counting on one of those that do sell these, you're probably going to be disappointed.) In fact, the majority of the booths DON'T sell these items, give change, etc.
The fold-up Regional Rail map doesn't cost $2. You see it infrequently, mainly at SEPTA community events and give-away booths, and I've never seen a charge made for it. Occasionally it pops up in the racks at Suburban Station, SEPTA HQ, etc. If I see one, I'll give you a holler.
Try the Transit Museum gift shop or Customer Service at Suburban. They usually carry them.
If you want one of those small fold-up SEPTA maps, I can send one to you. Please advise where to send, etc.
OK, since I don't yet have Dougherty's track book, which clears things up on this topic pretty easily:
Pre-Chrystie Street connection in '67, did N trains going over the Manhattan Bridge connect to Broadway? How did Brighton and West End trains get to Manhattan? Did all service wind up at Chambers Street?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Before Christie Sea Beach, Brighton, and West End services went up Broadway.
N - Broadway Sea Beach Express - 57th St to Coney Island
T - Broadway West End Express - Astoria or 57th St to Coney Island
Q - Broadway Brighton Express - 57th St to Brighton Beach
QB - Broadway Brighton Local via Bridge - Astoria to Coney Island
QT - Broadway Brighton Local via Tunnel - Astoria to Coney Island
RR - Broadway 4th Ave Local - Forest Hills or 57th St to 95 St
Note that the QT operated weekdays, QB operated weeknights and all weekend.
Dont forget that before Chrystie Street the NORTH side tracks connected to Broadway, the south side tracks went to Nassau Loop.
wayne
Yes, and I remember going over the bridge on the north side on that N train back in 1965.
Say, Wayne, guess what movie they were showing on American Movis Classics the other day. A Night at the Opera!. I missed it, but thought about your descriptions of trains emptying out on several occasions.
The Q and QT operated together at the same time; the QB held down the fort by itself on the Brighton line during other times. After 1966, the Q ran local in Brooklyn during middays. This tidbit needs to be corrected in the Line by Line section; specifically, QT trains did not operate 24/7 in the immediate pre-Chrystie St. period.
The T was essentially a rush hour and Saturday operation just before Chrystie St. It ran to Astoria during weekdays and 57th St. on Saturdays.
Of the three Broadway express services, only the N operated 24/7.
RR trains ran to Continental Ave. during weekdays and to 57th St. other times.
The south side bridge tracks were used almost exclusively during rush hours by Bankers Specials, and then those trains typically deadheaded over the bridge.
I remember seeing QB and T trains on Saturdays during the early fall of 1967 just before Chrystie St.
The descriptions missed the TT (West End local) service via tunnel to Chambers St. which operated M-F daytime (rush hours to Bay Pkwy, midday to Coney Island). The TT also opearated as a shuttle from 36th St. to Coney Island nights and Sundays.
As for the Q (Brighton express) running local in Brooklyn middays M-F, this started in the mid-50s and lasted until Chrystie St. opened.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, it was a bit more complex for the "TT". Depending on the time during the rush hours, "TT" locals could have terminated at either Bay Parkway, 62nd Street or 9th Avenue. For the afternoon rush hour (at least), the "TT"s started terminating at 9th Avenue first (around 4PM), then moved out to 62nd Street, then (finally) Bay Parkway, at which point some of the equipment was probably forwarded to the Coney Island yards for storage. I believe that the morning rush operated in the reverse order, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge about this.
I notice that much of the older Brooklyn service pattern was less focused on Manhattan, and was more an internal Brooklyn system. Obviously, Brooklyn was more of its own economy early in the 20th Century. What do we understand of the patterns of use and development of the old Brooklyn system? Did people work in downtown Brooklyn and take transit back to the residential neighborhoods at night? Or was it more complex than this? I am interested in any insights people may have.
[I notice that much of the older Brooklyn service pattern was less focused on Manhattan, and was more an internal Brooklyn system. Obviously, Brooklyn was more of its own economy early in the 20th Century. What do we understand of the patterns of use and development of the old Brooklyn system? Did people work in downtown Brooklyn and take transit back to the residential neighborhoods at night? Or was it more complex than this? I am interested in any insights people may have.]
Your supposition is correct. Downtown Brooklyn once was a much more significant employment center than it is today, comparatively speaking. There also was a great deal of commuter traffic to other employment centers within the borough, such as the Navy Yard and Bush Terminal.
Also along the water front, Factories Like Dutch Boy Paint, Howard Clothes not to mention a few
Let's put it this way.
In 1950, Brooklyn had two economic bases -- commutation to Manhattan, and factories and shipping in Brooklyn.
In 2000 it still has two economic bases -- commutation to Manhattan, and welfare payments and government-funded non-profits in Brooklyn.
Commuting to Manhattan is about what it was. On the other hand, welfare recipients don't need to go anywhere, and those working in the non-profits that "serve" them drive. Workfare has probably contributed to the rise in subway ridership.
The BMT concentrated on Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Service patterns which did fine in the 40's and 50's would be useless today. The Nassau St line was once a major route for the BMT Southern Division. Today, it rates only limited rush hour service.
The BMT also planned on having the Broadway line run way up into Manhattan, thus the city hall station. Nassau st. line got ridership because it went over the Manhattan bridge in that loop.
I was going to mention the TT, but didn't because the original inquiry was about Broadway service. Anyway, wasn't it true that TT trains would lay up in Fresh Pond and/or ENY yards during middays? I remember seeing a TT train of R-32s at ENY on July 20, 1967 from the Eastern Parkway platform on the Canarsie line.
I've checked several older maps on this website, plus my 1964 World's Fair map, and only the 1966 map mentions the Q running local in Brooklyn from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. Perhaps this was overlooked on earlier maps.
I've checked several older maps on this website, plus my 1964 World's Fair map, and only the 1966 map mentions the Q running local in Brooklyn from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. Perhaps this was overlooked on earlier maps.
Lots of these finer details were overlooked on earlier maps.
-- Ed Sachs
I believe it.
There first decent map did not come out until 1967 with the Christie Street Connection
I remember the Brighton express running express middays from when I first became subway aware around 1959 until maybe around 1964 or 1965. Then they had the Q run local during midday for a couple of years. Then when the D started, they reinstitued express service. I think they switched to midday local service after the year of A-B skip-stop service they had while rebuilding the Newkirk Avenue station to accept 10-car trains (600').
For the record, Parkside, Ave J were "A" (Brighton Express) stations, Beverly, Cortelyou, Avenue H, and Avenue M, were "B" (Brighton Local) stations. The reason they did this was that the local track wall was being dynamited and rebuilt at Newkirk, so they connected the local tracks to the express tracks both north and south of Newkirk Avenue one Saturday night, ran the new service for a year or two, then reconnected back the old way for 4-track service one Saturday night.
During those two Saturday nights, a shuttle bus ran from Cortelyou Road (where the Brighton line had to stop) to Newkirk and on to Avenue H, which the Sea Beach Line ran though to that one night only.
At Joeseph Korman's website, he had (or may still have) a scan of a service brochure from 1966 explaining the loss of midday express service because of construction of platform extensions along the whole line to accept 600' trains. I believe that there was a period where temporary wooden platform extensions were used when local stations were being extended, with all trains running on the express tracks.
At Joeseph Korman's website, he had (or may still have) a scan of a service brochure from 1966 explaining the loss of midday express service because of construction of platform extensions along the whole line to accept 600' trains. I believe that there was a period where temporary wooden platform extensions were used when local stations were being extended, with all trains running on the express tracks.
No, the trains all ran on the local tracks. The express tracks dead ended on either side of Newkirk Ave. station, and the local tracks were re-routed through Newkirk to the express tracks, then back again. This was done so that the retaining walls could be taken down and the cut widened at the north end of Newkirk Ave. station to allow the platforms to be lengthened. However, at all other stations, the normal local tracks were used.
During the skip-stop period, the Brighton Express trains (rush hours only in those days) still used the express tracks between Kings Highway and Brighton Beach.
The Skip-Stop service began in Jaunuary, 1964. It was originally slated to start the previous Novemeber, but the TA was pressured into delaying the start until after the Christmas shopping season. The work was supposed to take a year, but they managed to get all 4 tracks back in operation by Thanksgiving 1965 (an unusual NYC project which actually got done early!).
Interesting note: If you look at the Skip Stop brochure on Joe Korman's web site, you will note that it refers to the Brighton Express as the No. 1. They were still running triplexes when it started. By the time the work was done 10 mos. later, it was R-32 Q trains.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: I thought the Triplexes were put in mothballs on July 23, 1965. If they were used on the Brighton in 1966-67 it would stand to reason that not all the Triplexes were taken out of service. Does this also hold true for my Sea Beach, or were the Tpxs just eliminated from this line? I do know that besides the Brighton carrying the #1, the Sea Beach carried the #4 periodically until the Chrystie Street connection went into effect. That meant the Sea Beach carried the "N" sign, and the #4, depending on what type of train ran on that line. Is this so?
BTW, as I write this, I'm wearing my "N" shirt that Brighton Beach Bob sent to me when he was in New York. I'm quite proud of it and wear it with pride.
As I said in my previous post, the Triplexes disappeared from the Brighton express during 1964, replaced by R-32s. Once the Brighton express was done, the went to the Sea Beach Express next. Yes, it is true that during the transition, trains had different markers depending upon what kind of equipment, letters (Q, N) on the R-32s and numbers (1, 4) on the Triplexes.
The Triplexes were all retired at least two years before the Chrystie St. connector opened. By 1967, the only BMT equipment still displaying numbers were the R-16s. These cars were fitted with new roll signs for the Chrystie St. opening, and after that were routinely intermingled with the R-27/30s.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Big Ed. And with that I have narrowed it down to a matter of days when the numbers were replaced by letters on the BMT.
The last Triplexes ended their careers on the West End. Once they were retired, number markings were no longer used on the Southern Division except for the Franklin Ave. shuttle, where the R-11s ran with their #7 signs.
I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In April 1965 there were as many as nine trains still in service on the West End Express which a few appearances on the West End Local and the Sea Beach Express. When they were removed from service on July 23 the following units were still in service 6019,6022,6030,6038,6043,6048,6080,6089,6093,6095,6101,6103,6104,6106 and 6112.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Have you washed it yet?????
Yes I did, or, rather, my wife did. In Tide if you have to know. And it smells so fresh. Glad to know you are looking after my interest, and I have made getting you the Brighton Shirt my first order of priority when I get to New York-----even before riding the Sea Beach to Coney Island. How's that for service?
So which one are you going to get, the D or the Q?
The D, they do nt make a Q. For you baseball fans they have 2 other t shirts. One with the 7 in it saying Willets Point-Sheas Stadium and the other 4-B-D 161st-River Ave-Yankee Stadium
If the number of Brighton fans on this site is any indication, somebody made a poor judgement economically in not printing any Q shirts.
Pigs: Why the D, of course. That goes from the Bronx to Coney, and to me that's the real Brighton. Of course, if Bob tells me he wants the Q, he will get the Q. I just hope they have his size. I really like the shirt he got me. I wear it a lot.
With the swiftness that the Slow.....er Sea Beach travels these days Bob may have to wait a bit longer than you think until you get him his shirt.
Just what I need to hear, another smart-alecky Brighton snob trying to rain on my Sea Beach parade. Come on out there, there must be a few other Sea Beach boys out there. I'm getting hit from all sides.
Give it up Fred, your Memory of the Slow Beach Exp is from the 40s and 50s. AIN T THE SAME DUDE.
I'm the eternal optimist Bob. Someday the Sea Beach will be an express again, will cross the Manhattan Bridge, have its stations refurbished, and be the signature line it once was. You see there is something about a subway cut that gives the appearance of a subway, yet if you move your eyes you get a unique picture of the streets above. There is no way I'm going to give that up.
I remember the mid 50s on the Brighton. The Express ran from Brighton Beach-Astoria 6AM-9PM. Via Bride .The local ran at those times from Coney island to Forest Hills via Tunnel. at t At all other times the local ran to Astoria, Express in Manhatten via Bridge and Local in Brooklyn. The Nassau Loop was served by Culver Exp 3 in each direction, other Culver Locals ran via Tunnel to Chambers St up Nassau St
I forgot to mention the Express was Mon-Sat
Also:
The M Brighton Express to Chambers St. (rush hours)
The TT West End Local to Chambers St.
On many els, wooden fences with chicken wire have been placed between the local and express tracks.
Purpose?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[On many els, wooden fences with chicken wire have been placed between the local and express tracks.
Purpose?]
So flaggers aren't needed if there are workers on the tracks?
06/02/2000
[So flaggers aren't needed if there are workers on the tracks? ]
That's right Peter, this is an ongoing thing with the resignaling of the West End Line. The Sea Beach had those fences too when that line was resignaled.
Bill "Newkirk"
So the cost of putting in those fences is less than paying for flagmen? I suppose if the project were long enough....
Is the resignalling just replacement of older infrastructure, or is a different method of signalling being employed?
Dave
Simple: To keep chickens from crossing the tracks.
-- David
Boston, MA
Q: Why did the chicken cross the express tracks?
A: To get to the other side!
Yuk, yuk, yuk. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.
NO,NO,NO
Because behind him was a porter with two biscuits and a bottle of HOT SAUCE.
avid
They're not just on the els. The Sea Beach Line also has them.
irritate them with high speed scrolling text
www.suv.com has a posting board on all the suv's on the road. It should be discuss there, not here.
Paul
once again, Heypaul innovates SubTalk.
We touch on transit-related issues, and SUVs are the competition.
I agree. Somehow off topic issues always wind up here. And then they get deleted.... I suppose some old habits are hard to break.
-Stef
It's related to transportation, whether you are pro-SUV, anti-SUV or are proud that you are still driving around in a fuel-efficient 1988 Tercel without air-conditioning.
Now, THAT'S R-10 speed!!:-)
Of course, I've been known to pop heypaul's LL/CC tape into my Jeep's cassette player and crank it up. Now if I could figure out how to synchronize the train sounds with driving...
hey steve... thanks for your continued endorsements of the r9 train sound tapes... i will put this testimonial into my file to show the center for disease control, when they come to check on those ugly rumors claiming that listening to the r9 tapes has caused the mental illness of 7 subtalkers who are no longer able to post on subtalk... your playing it a high volume in your jeep proves that it has in no way affected your ability to function...
i have always maintained that those 7 unfortunate subtalkers had preexisting conditions before they listened to those tapes...
Heypaul, my pleasure. I said it before and I'll say it again: I highly recommend that tape to anyone who remembers the R-1/9s as fondly as I do, or who may be curious as to what they were like.
I still need to pick up a subwoofer for my stereo. That would add some nice subway-style rumble to the floor...
Why don't you just NOT READ THE THREAD?!
Can someone explain to me what happened to the bronx in the late 60's and mi-70's Why did they say the Bronx was on fire? How safe is the borough today.
[Can someone explain to me what happened to the bronx in the late 60's and mi-70's Why did they say the Bronx was on fire? How safe is the borough today.]
There is no single reason why the Bronx deteriorated so badly. Rent control, escalating crime, poor schools, and the migration of the middle classes to the suburbs all played a part. All of these causes fed upon one another (for instance, crime led to more suburban migration which led to declining schools which led to crime ...) It's difficult or impossible to isolate one or more causes as the leading ones.
The decline of the Bronx can be divided into three parts.
Part 1, 1950s -- 1960s:
Portions of the South Bronx built with low quality tenaments (think Third Avenue El) and occupied by the working poor deteriorated. Whites moved out, poor blacks and Latinos moved in, then the buildings were allowed to deteriorate further, until they were abandoned.
The city's economy was booming at the time, and tons of subsidized middle and moderate income housing was being built. Parkchester, Coop City, etc. Working people moved there, better off people moved to the suburbs. The city added 350,000 housing units in the 1950s, and an equal number in the 1960s, but the population did not rise. In 1970, the poor "South Bronx" as people understood it stopped at 161st St west of Webster Avenue.
Part II 1970s:
The whole Northeast and New York City go into a deep economic decline. Better off parts of the West Bronx go through a rapid abandonment by affluent and working whites and occupation by poor Blacks and Latinos, and some landlords start torching their buildings for the insurance. These are the "art-deco" middle and upper income apartment houses on the two hills -- on the Grand Councourse, and off University Avenue. NYC goes bust. NYU abandons its hilltop campus in University Heights. During the 1977 World Series, which took place in part in Yankee Stadium, the flames are visible from the press box. Affluent suburbanites are shocked to see affluent areas -- the ones they came in flames. Howard Cosell, the most famous sports announcer in America, announces "The Bronx is Burning" on national TV.
Part III 1980s and 1990s:
The city's economy turns around, and so do many "inner city" neighborhoods with good access to Manhattan. But not the Bronx. Why? My theory is that the six to ten story apartment building has been rejected by the middle class. There is a market for towers in Manhattan, a market for townhouses in the other boroughs, and a market for detached houses in the suburbs. But the better areas of the Bronx were build with 1920s and 1930s apartment buildings.
In "Brownstone Brooklyn," a middle income family could buy a rowhouse originally built for the affluent on the cheap, and fix it up with sweat equity themselves. Many did so. As a result, neighborhoods came back, and "Brownstone Brooklyn" is now the richest area of the city outside Manhattan. In the Bronx, you have apartment buildings owned by absentee landlords that require a large amount of capital and expertise to renovate and operate. And if your neighbor happens to be a drug dealer or criminal, he has a right to his housing, and there is nothing that can be done about it.
Still, I expect the better areas of the Bronx to come back sooner or later. Perhaps by 2020.
Neighborhoods get old and they sometimes die out. I fault the continuation of rent-control after WW2 for the decline of the city's rental housing stock.
Well, Larry started to tell about the history of the South Bronx. It was even MORE complex then what he'd said. I am an unofficial, self-proclaimed South Bronx historian. I spent between 6-8 months vigorously reasearching the rise and fall of the South Bronx. Believe it or not, during the Harlem Renaissance, places like Hunt's Point (now known for it's drug problems and prostitution) were some of the nicest, most desirable places to live in NYC. What Larry told you all about the South Bronx has a lot of truth, but there is a lot more to be added in between. I plan on majoring in Urban Studies/Sociology and Social Work and writing my college thesis on the South Bronx. While I may not be able to answer all your question, if you have specific questions on this, e-mail me at: Nordica@aol.com
[Part III 1980s and 1990s:
The city's economy turns around, and so do many "inner city" neighborhoods with good access to Manhattan. But not the Bronx. Why? My theory is that the six to ten story apartment building has been rejected by the middle class. There is a market for towers in Manhattan, a market for townhouses in the other boroughs, and a market for detached houses in the suburbs. But the better areas of the Bronx were build with 1920s and 1930s apartment buildings.]
Could be. But you'll see midsized apartment buildings in parts of Brooklyn and Queens, even some places in Manhattan and suburban towns, but they haven't deteriorated as much as they have in much (not all, of course) of the Bronx.
Frankly, as someone whose family originated in the Bronx, I think the difficult truth of the Bronx is that it has too few middle class amenities relative to the other boroughs. Public schools are hopeless, and there are few private alternatives. There are few museums and colleges. There are not even many libraries. While the Bronx is the most attractive borough in terms of its natural landscape (think the Botanical Gardens) the intense level of development has left relatively little parkland in areas where people actually live (not Van Cortland Park, which is peripheral.) I do believe that the Bronx can and should "come back", but this will only happen when a decision is made to develop amenities in the borough to serve the middle classes.
(Frankly, as someone whose family originated in the Bronx, I think the difficult truth of the Bronx is that it has too few middle class amenities relative to the other boroughs).
The is a-historic The borough with the fewest middle class amenities is definately Brooklyn. The Bronx have lost amenities, but it did have them.
Brooklyn has the least parkland relative to population, the Bronx has the most. Van Cortlandt Park may be peripheral, but Prospect Park is the only major facility in Brooklyn.
The Bronx has Fordham and Manhattan College. It HAD New York University. Lehman College was the first home of the U.N.
The 1969 Plan recounts the excellent public schools outside the South Bronx, while expressing concern about Brooklyn's schools. Of course, after the 1960s teacher's strike and the creation of community school boards the entire system went to pot, but this was after the fact.
The Bronx is closer to Manhattan, in subway travel time, than Brooklyn.
Monsholu and Pelham Parkway are at least the equal of Ocean and Eastern Parkway.
In a value free-sense, housing in the art-deco era apartment buildings in the Bronx is superior to the Brownstones of Brooklyn. But people value their own homes, and are willing to invest sweat and money to restore them. Few people value six story apartment buildings, and absentee landlords are prone to milk and burn them.
(I do believe that the Bronx can and should "come back", but this will only happen when a decision is made to develop amenities in the borough to serve the middle classes).
How about vouchers for school choice? Right now the middle class has a de facto voucher system -- you pick your school when you pick your suburb -- while working people and the poor have no choice. Give everyone a choice, in the city and out, and things will change.
I thought the first home of the United Nations (the convention and charter in 'Frisco doesn't really count) was Flushing Meadows.
You forgot Marine Park, and the parks in Dyker Beach, also how about the Apts in Brooklyn Hts, and the Promanade overlooking the River and the Downtown Skyline. Also The boardwalk in Brighton and Coney island. Remember Brooklyn for most of it s history was a seperate city until it was FORCED to merge with NYC, The Bronx was always part of NYC. The only places I would go in the Bronx are the Stadium and Bronx Park, everything else is duplicated any where in the city, let alone the country
Marine Park between Fillmore Avenue and Avenue U is only 3 long blocks by 5.66 short blocks. The .66 is because it runs to E 32nd between Fillmore and S and to 33rd between S and U. Most of Marine Park is south of Avenue U, and is undeveloped except for a golf course, which requires owning or renting golf equipment, so it's not really public recreation.
Similar can be said of Dyker, the part between Cropsey Avenue extension and 86th Street is the golf course, and the part between Cropsey Ext and the Belt Parkway is not that large and does not have much.
There are also Boardwalks in Rockaway Beach, South/Midland Beach and Orchard Beach (all right, not the same in OB).
As for Bronx always being part of New York City, I think you should take your own advice and think before you speak (or type). What we now call the Borough of The Bronx, or Bronx County was established as part of West Chester County on November 1, 1683. The county's seat was established in the Town of West Chester, incorporated at the same time from a village. There were nineteen other towns in the county.
By 1873, The City of New York had expanded to overtake the villages (later towns) of Greenwich and Harlem in it's own county to become the first city in New York to occupy one whole county.
On January 1, 1874, the City of New York annexed the Westchester County towns of Morrisania, West Farms and Kingsbridge into itself. At the same time, that area was moved to New York County.
In 1888, the city had bought lands in the annexed district/23rd ward for parkland. These included Mt. Eden, Crotona and Bronx Parks. A portion of Bronx Park was in the Town of Eastchester, all of Pelham Bay Park was in the Town of Pelham. On January 1, 1895, the city had expanded it's boundaries to the Long Island Sound by taking portions of the Towns of Pelham and Eastchester, including the incorporated village of Wakefield in Eastchester (now you know why the border has that bump where the 2 train ends), and all of Westchester. Ironically, the county's namesake is now in NYC.
In 1898, the 23rd and 24th wards formed the Borough of the Bronx, which was part of NY County until 1914.
Kings County consisted of 6 towns in 1683: Brooklyn, New Utrecht, Flatbush, Bushwick, Flatlands and Gravesend.
In 1816, the core of Brooklyn Town had incorporated as the Village of Brooklyn.
In 1837, Brooklyn became a city.
In 1827, the Village of Williamsburgh had formed in Bushwick.
In 1841, Williamsburg became a city.
In 1844, Williamsburg and Bushwick were annexed to Brooklyn
In 1852, the Town of New Lots had formed from a part of the Town of Flatbush.
In 1886, New Lots was annexed to the City of Brooklyn
In 1894, Flatbush, New Utrecht and Gravesend fell prey to the ravenous Brooklyn, leaving only Flatlands alone with Brooklyn in Kings County, until...
1896, when the City of Brooklyn had come to control all of Kings County.
We all know what happened in 1898.
As much as I like to talk about how bad it was that Brooklyn sold out in 1898, there are a few facts that I'm sure you'd like to be confused with:
In the non-binding 1895 referendum, every portion of what became NYC, voted FOR consolidation. Richmond County voted in favor of it by the highest margin (ironic, isn't it), with Kings County voting the least overwhelmingly. Manhattan did vote, but many were not sure they wanted to subsidize the riff-raff out in the country (like Queens).
Once the state legislature approved consolidation, the matter had to be approved by the mayors of the cities in the concerned area. This meant, New York, Long Island City and BROOKLYN. Needless to say, the matter was approved.
Those Brooklynites consider New York's ruthless acquisition as wrong need only look at Brooklyn itself, and it's acquisition after acquisition throughout the county. Brooklyn ate all the little fish, only to be eaten by the bigger fish.
If Brooklyn went out kicking and screaming, it certainly was all for show.
Probably the single thing that would make a difference would be ending rent control in Manhattan (and preferably everywhere else in NYC.) Once the middle classes considered where else they could go, the Bronx's advantages would become apparent. The quality of the apartment housing stock is what once made the Bronx the de facto first "suburban" community for those who were seeking better conditions than were available in the slums of Manhattan. Of course, the slums of Manhattan are gone now, and many of those areas like Hells Kitchen, the Lower East Side, and Little Italy are now gentrifying. The Bronx could be next, if the apartment model of living appeals to middle class residents. The question is what could create this apartment-dwelling bourgeoise class in the Bronx? It may not be possible.
If anyone has noticed, if you take the Bruckner Expressway south - to NYC, as you pass through the South Bronx you will see on your right a large sign next to an old factory with a tall chimney.
The sign reads LOFTS FOR RENT. Lofts - the same word used to describe the warehouse-turned-apartment buildings in Brooklyn and the West Side. There is a number there you can call and I have been meaning to call out of curiousity. If the rents are high, chances are they are looking to bring in some big spenders into the area.
The NY Post a few months back mentioned that an old casket factory in the Mott Haven area is being converted into lofts. The developer joked that this may very well lead to the "yuppification" of the area.
Stranger things have happened but artist taking loft space in the south Bronx is a real pioneer.
Oh no, not yuppies in the South bronx. What has this world come to!
"Oh no, not yuppies in the South bronx. What has this world come to!"
Of course! Yuppie lofts, Starbucks coffee shops, and fern bars are MUCH MUCH worse than the blocks upon blocks of vacant buildings (or just dirt) of the 1970s and early '80s.
The one thing that could rejuvinate the Bronx is for Blacks and Latinos that get an educatoin and succeed to stay rather than leave. I lived in a house with a bunch of Latino's from the Bronx in college. Those people are GONE. All those who flunked out, went on welfare, ended up on drugs, etc. are still here. As long as that continues, no matter how many individuals succeed, the Bronx will stay poor.
We've talked out about the fact that image is more important than reality. I think if a bunch of Latino celeberties start moving into one or two of the grand old apartment buildings in the Grand Concourse, the area could become hip with LUPPIES, is there is such a term. What ever happened to that Latin music venue that was proposed for the big old theater on the Concourse at Fordham Road?
Hey, it's too late guys- THERE'S A STARBUCKS ON FORDHAM RD.!!! AHHHH! God, wait a few months and the Starbucks infection may spread to Burnside Ave. and Tremont.
There's also a Barnes & Noble in the Bronx and it is not even in Riverdale or near a major college or university. It is in the Bay Plaza center near Co-op City. Now we can dispell the rumors that Bronx people don't read.
One major poblemo is that the building owners in the Bronx don't live there. Most live in Manhattan or in Westchester. Many are in it for the money. They place "section 8" people in apartments. Whether they pay rent or not, the subsidy comes in. What do they care for good decent people.
The image portrayed in the media, not just for the bronx but the entire city, is at fault. It is refreshing when I hear tourists visiting the nearby zoo or Botanical Gardens tell me what a nice time they had.
Joe C.
First, end it in the outer boroughs, where the controlled rent is closer to the market rent. After the riffraff start leaving, end it in Manhattan so that the resulting vacuum will be filled.
Very Good History Lesson Pigs, one for you
[The Bronx vs. Brooklyn]
Another difference between the two boroughs is that Brooklyn has an independent economic base. Manufacturing and shipping are still important components of the economy regardless of whatever declines they may have experienced. And Downtown Brooklyn has a reasonable number of front- and back-office jobs.
You don't see that in the Bronx. There's no shipping, only a modest level of manufacturing*, no office space to speak of, and in fact no real downtown. About the only major non-governmental economic activity is at the Hunts Point market and the retail cluster near Co-op City.
Essentially, Brooklyn is considered a place in economic decline not so much because of the way it appears today, but because of what it used to be like. The Bronx, in contrast, is an economic nonentity today.
* = When the Farberware plant closed a couple of years ago, it was the largest manufacturer in all of the Bronx despite having only a couple hundred employees. That's utterly pathetic for a place with over a million inhabitants.
Was the subway system affected in anyway by the flight of people to the burbs? Also if drug dealers and gangs were running some of the neighbourhoods in the erea how did this affect the system?
If it didn't cost $7.00 round trip just to access a bridge to get there, ($6.00 with Metro Card EZ Pass) I'd go to the Bronx more often.
take the subway
From Long Island? That's preposterous, and it would end up costing MORE!
If I were to go to the Bronx, I'd drive through Manhattan, the Whitestone is useful only for going to New England, with the rest, going through Manhattan is better.
In the second paragraph, I was talking about coming from Brooklyn, from LI, the Throgs Neck is always the best bet (excepting slow traffic situations).
Jeff, You are a cop, just flash your badge, don t they give you the toll free?
(Jeff, You are a cop, just flash your badge, don t they give you the toll free?)
Nope, they just park on the street free. Hence the civil service opposition to tolling the free East River Bridges, and the continued drain on city finances to rebuild them.
You could always take the Q44 bus from Queens to the bRonx.
Welcome back BX55. There was a recent thread about missing Subtalkers, and I'm sure you were missed. Nice to see you make a comeback.
The same goes for me BX55. And keep the info coming on the South Bronx. I'd like to see the Grand Concourse come back to what it was in the 1940's and early 50's.
Today I saw AEM7AC 916 pull Train 182 to New York. Of course I took several pictures on it.
Train 182 will arrive in New York at 11:25AM. If the dispatchment is normal, AEM7AC 916 will haul Train 85 departing New York at 4:20PM.
For those who want to take a picture on AEM7ACs, this is your chance.
Chaohwa
The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?
[The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX
Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?]
From an article by Al Frank in today's Star-Ledger:
"Additionally, a freight link over the Arthur Kill connecting Elizabeth and Howland Hook is to be finished."
Didn t they already have that from the old B and O days?
New Jersey had been trying to stop the reactivation of that line, on the ground that it might benefit New York City, while keeping it abandoned might convince businesses to locate in New Jersey.
Actually, it was (Union?) county trying to stop the line, because they don't see any 'local benefit'. The line is basically an 'air line' which bypasses just about everything on its way to the AK bridge. The Staten Island side of the line has been completed for 2-3 years already, but the NJ side hasn't seen a shovel turn. There are already customers on the line, waiting for service to begin.
-Hank
I neglected to mention:
What 'local benefit' they don't think they're getting? Currently, all freight of any type from NJ to SI goes via the Goethals Bridge, whcih parallels the AK bridge. 75% of the trucks to and from Howland Hook and VISY Paper (the 2 major shippers on the line) would then run on the railroad, thus reducing local pollution and traffic.
-Hank
Union County had a legitmate objection to waste being shipped through their county on the 'B&O' line after Fresh Kills closes. The county also wanted some sidings off of the line for their local industries but I don't know if that was a real issue for them.
Those industries are already adequately served by the industrial road (whose name I forget) and the Chemical Coast line. And at the time the line was supposed to be finished, garbage shipment wasn't an issue. At any right, The PA has the authority to step in and do the job, which is exactly what it will do, in light of the announced expansion of Howland Hook and th governor's agreement.
-Hank
[The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?]
The connection in question would run across the Arthur Kill lift bridge a short distance into Staten Island. It would be freight-only, serving the Howland Hook shipping terminal and some industrial users. Some parts of the line have been rebuilt on the Staten Island side in anticipation of the connection.
There are *no* plans to rebuild the north shore line all the way to St. George.
NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the SI side for it to connect to ????
Mr t__:^)
[NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the
SI side for it to connect to ???? ]
NT and 21st Century rail ill extend the HBLR to 2nd st. in Bayonne. No SIpassenger pail connection is planned and most likely won't be. If the MA won't even offer bus ervice to the HBLR over the bridge, why would they buld a railroad? Answer: They won't. Besides, the MTA would make no money extending the passenger line over that way and therefore is an illogical venture.
-Daniel
New York Area railroads
Check out the new SIR and NYCHRR pics!
NJT is not as adverse to interstate lines as the MTA is. Also, NJT would benefit more from the expansion since many S.I. residents near the extended line would see it as an easier way into Manhattan (especially upper Manhattan if they connect to PATH at Pavonia / Newport or Hoboken). It would be better than a 1/2 hour ferry ride which connects only to local trains (except the East Side IRT). It could be seen as an alternative to driving and express buses, since both face traffic over the bridge and through the tunnel. It would especially be most useful for those who work in Exchange Place, though. It could replace the express buses from NJ to SI.
With the announcement that Chase is moving several thousand workers to NJ by the Newport Mall area, expect to see a renewed push for service from SI to the HBLR.
[NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the
SI side for it to connect to ???? ]
NT and 21st Century rail ill extend the HBLR to 2nd st. in Bayonne. No SIpassenger pail connection is planned and most likely won't be. If the MA won't even offer bus ervice to the HBLR over the bridge, why would they buld a railroad? Answer: They won't. Besides, the MTA would make no money extending the passenger line over that way and therefore is an illogical venture.
-Daniel
New York Area railroads
Check out the new SIR and NYCHRR pics!
That would be on the Bayonne side of Staten Island. The Bayonne Bridge (Port Autorhity) was designed to carry rail (light or heavy, I'm not sure) over it. The Bayonne bridge is the lightest used bridge under the Port Authority as well.
It's the lightest used bridge in the area period. It is also the only one without a raised median (although the construction areas have a temporary median).
"Governors End Port Authority Rift That Blocked Billions in Projects
"By RONALD SMOTHERS - NY Times - June 2, 2000
"Gov. George E. Pataki and Gov. Christine Todd Whitman settled an 18-month standoff at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey yesterday, clearing the way for long-blocked projects worth billions to both states.
"... Mrs. Whitman, in turn, ended New Jersey's refusal to approve two projects dear to New York: selling or leasing the World Trade Center to private interests and leasing air rights over the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
"... As part of the deal, Mrs. Whitman also agreed to a study (Larry: don't you just love it?) that is likely to lead to an increase by the end of the year in the $1 fare on the PATH rapid transit line -- a step New York had long sought
".... Some items in the agreement that seemed aimed at addressing New York's concerns included the creation of a $250 million "development bank" for New York transportation projects over the next three years and the allocation of agency money for economic development efforts in South Jamaica, Queens, where a new terminal is planned to connect subway and commuter trains to a Kennedy Airport rail link. ..."
Full article :
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/060200ny-port.html
Does anybody think that the proposals to develop a deep-water port in Brooklyn, and/or build a rail tunnel under the harbor to service it, could actually be done? I find it hard to believe that the best use of the desirable waterfront area in Brooklyn is as a freight port area. But such a development could produce a lot of jobs, so maybe it makes economic sense. Any ideas out there?
Try talking the Navy to reopen the Navy Yard
The only way the rail-freight tunnel proposal will see any form or reality is when New York City -- but Brooklyn specifically -- regains manufacturing jobs.
Along those line, right now, there is a company in Sunset Park that is attempting to do just that. They are a textile firm called "Made in Brooklyn" and are putting out a line of clothes for the youth market that is supposed to compete with brands such as The Gap and Old Navy (produced in the foreign market).
"Made in Brooklyn" may be the first in what hopefully will become a series of new (or returning) industries to Brooklyn's waterfront areas. Certainly this is good news. However, the rail-freight tunnel would only be viable if there were a sizable increase in import/export businesses. And that may take decades to be realized -- if at all.
Doug aka BMTman
There is also an engineering issue that doesn't get much play in the press. A tunnel from the Bay Ridge freight line to NJ or SI would have to gradually descend under the Narrows, which means the portal would be nowhere near the waterfront area. And don't expect manufacturing to return to Brooklyn on a large scale anytime soon. Those jobs are now in Malaysia, China and Vietnam.
Somebody has mentioned 14th Ave. as the proposed location of the portal. It doesn't really matter. If you reduce the cost of shipping goods into and out of Long Island (including the parts that are in NYC), you make the area more competative. Waiting for customers to start their businesses before you put in a rail line to serve them is ass backwards. There is already plenty of traffic to justify building, and more would follow.
[The only way the rail-freight tunnel proposal will see any form or reality is when New York City -- but Brooklyn specifically -- regains manufacturing jobs.
"Made in Brooklyn" may be the first in what hopefully will become a series of new (or returning) industries to Brooklyn's waterfront areas. Certainly this is good news. However, the rail-freight tunnel would only be viable if there were a sizable increase in import/export businesses. And that may take decades to be realized -- if at all.]
Just having more industry in Brooklyn might not be enough to make the rail tunnel cost-effective. You'd need the sort of heavy industry that makes use of rail - places like auto assembly plants, paper mills, chemical plants, stuff like that. And it's rather difficult to imagine that ever happening, if for no other reason than physical lack of space - for example, an auto assembly plant requires about 75 acres, and that's just for the building. Moreover, the existing buildings with available space, such as Bush Terminal, are unsuitable to these users and would have to be demolished.
Brooklyn's best chance is to attract light manufacturing such as apparel and electronics manufacturers. Users like this don't have enormous space requirements and often can use existing industrial space. In fact, I believe there has been a semi-revivial of that sort of manufacturing in some parts of the borough. When I was on that SubTalk waterfront tour last August, I was surprised at the amount of business activity in what looked like a desolate area - and that was on a Saturday. But the bigger point is that users of this nature seldom ship by rail.
I agree that Brooklyn is not destined to have much heavy industry, or many carload freight shippers, any time soon.
One exception will be trash; hopefully also recycleables.
But 4 million people (or so) live on LI, and consume a whole lot of goods. Right now, a lot of these goods are made somewhere S or W of NYC, brought to northern NJ on rail (including those that came off a ship in Seattle or LA) and then the trucks are driven across the Hudson, NYC, and the east river. This pounds the city's infrastucture and contributes to the high cost of goods on Long Island. I would think a couple intermodal yards on the island, and a few printing plants and the like getting their paper via the tunnel, could do a measurable amount to take trucks out of NYC.
Should this be as high a priority as the 2nd Ave Subway? No way.
But it still seems like a long-term, significant benefit for the city.
[But 4 million people (or so) live on LI, and consume a whole lot of goods. Right now, a lot of these goods are made somewhere S or W of NYC, brought to northern NJ on rail (including those that came off a ship in Seattle or LA) and then the trucks are driven across the Hudson, NYC, and the east river. This pounds the city's infrastucture and contributes to the high cost of goods on Long Island. I would think a couple intermodal yards on the island, and a few printing plants and the like getting their paper via the tunnel, could do a measurable amount to take trucks out of NYC.]
The LIRR did make an attempt to start intermodal service some years ago, and it was a flop. See the recent thread about "Freight yard in East Farmingdale" for more details. I suspect the NY&A would be reluctant to give intermodal service another try.
As far as the economics are concerned, I doubt if there'd be any big advantages to a tunnel. Most industry and warehousing on Long Island is built in areas not served by rail. See, for example, the Hauppauge Industrial Park and the MacArthur industrial zone. Trucks will still be needed to serve these places even with a cross-harbor freight tunnel. Right now the trucks are loaded in New Jersey. With a tunnel, they'd be loaded somewhere in Brooklyn or maybe on Long Island. Would the cost savings (even including those resulting from less road wear) be enough to offset the tunnel's cost in any reasonable timeframe? I wouldn't hold my breath.
A number of labor unions have latched onto the lack of rail access as a reason manufacturing left New York City, and therefore hope that building a rail tunnel will bring back dues paying members. This ignores some inconvenient facts:
1) Manufacturing left all older central cities at the same or greater rates, including those (like Philadelphia and Chicago) that are criss-crossed by rail freight lines.
2) The New Jersey counties that HAVE the region's port and rail lost about the same share of their peak manufacturing employment as NYC.
3) Lots of independent research says that while some labor intensive manufacturing employment moved to poor countries, and some capital-intensive manufacturing employment got automated out of existence, the big factor for the location of manufacturing within the U.S. is the flight from unions.
There are three perspectives on this 1) Right wing -- manufacturing has run away from unions and that's good 2) Left wing -- manufacturing has run away from unions and that's bad 3) Academic -- manufacturing has run away from unions. Not liking this consensus, and unable or unwilling to organize workers in the Sunbelt, unions have latched onto the rail tunnel.
Hold on - there is not more manufacturing in Chicago than there is in NYC, as a % of jobs? I am skeptical. Even Philly probably has more manufacturing jobs than NYC.
Anyways, my point was bringing in goods to an area with a lot of consumers, not stimulating manufacturing. If you do that, great, but I agree that is a pretty flimsy arguement.
Peter points out that efforts have been made to bring intermodal onto the island as it is, that have not been very sucessful. Well, it takes a day for a freight - one that is in a big hurry, that is, to make it from Oak Island or wherever up to Albany (very congested line), across the bridge, down the NYC line, through the bronx, and across the Hell Gate. There are plenty of time restrictions on the passenger lines, too. This one to two day penalty is obviously going to kill intermodal onto the island from most points. For those things coming east on the CSX ex NYC line, which go through Albany anyways, I'm sure they'd get onto the island a lot faster going south to Newark and under the bay then down the east side of the river to the hell gate and across. Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam.
(Hold on - there is not more manufacturing in Chicago than there is in NYC, as a % of jobs? I am skeptical. Even Philly probably has more manufacturing jobs than NYC.)
My point is that the PERCENT DECLINE in manufacturing production jobs (census of manufacturing) is no greater in NYC than in other older cities. Those cities always were more industrial than NYC, and remain so today, but the percent decline is similar -- even though they had the rail connections and NYC did not.
(Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam).
The only way I see it working is if, in addition to TOFC, you could have trucks driving on, and riding on rails through the city as drivers took their breaks a la the Chunnel. I understand that TOFC is feasible on the Bay Ridge line and the Hell Gate Bridge with significant investment, but double stack is not -- not without raising every bridge over a rail line in the city.
[Peter points out that efforts have been made to bring intermodal onto the island as it is, that have not been very sucessful. Well, it takes a day for a freight - one that is in a big hurry, that is, to make it
from Oak Island or wherever up to Albany (very congested line), across the bridge, down the NYC line, through the bronx, and across the Hell Gate. There are plenty of time restrictions on the passenger lines, too. This one to two day penalty is obviously going to kill intermodal onto the island from most points. For those things coming east on the CSX ex NYC line, which go through Albany anyways, I'm sure they'd get onto the island a lot faster going south to Newark and under the bay
then down the east side of the river to the hell gate and across. Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam.]
Possibly, but from what I've heard, the extra time required for the Selkirk (Albany) routing is not much of an issue for shippers. Rail shipments don't always take the most direct routes no matter where in the country you're talking about. Whether the time savings that a tunnel would produce would be enough to convince some businesses to switch to rail is an open issue. I suspect that any gains would be minimal.
At any rate, the main issue is the lack of sidings on the Long Island end. The great majority of industries and warehouses in Nassau and Suffolk that might use rail are located away from rail lines, and don't seem to mind it.
But my whole arguement is about intermodal! A troublesome thing might be finding the land to build an intermodal terminal. But the lack of sidings is _not_ a big deal.
Intermodal RR traffic IS quite time sensitive. RRs go to great lengths to speed up these trains and get them there on time.
Getting a truck through NYC is a bottleneck - not as bad as taking a train to Albany & back, but still a bottleneck. This might help make intermodal through the tunnel competitive.
And what happens to the truck traffic when the City does to diesel powered trucks what it did to steam locos? Won't happen? Politicians do strange things, like banning cigarette smoking in the work place. Diesel trucks in NYC will be next after they get rid of the diesel buses.
With any luck, we'll all be going to Hybrids or Fuel Cells anyway. The big diesel pollution is when the big vehicles strain to move froma stop, or when the idle in one place. A hybrid vehicle with a relatively clean diesel engine charging a battery is an improvment we may see soon.
Getting back to the tunnel, the only way this works is if
1) The feds pay for it (and not by deducting money that could have been used for something else).
2) The tunnel is used not only by trains but also by trucks carried by trains a-la the Chunnel. Ie. a truck traveling from North Carolina to Long Island, rather than drive through NYC and pay the toll, drives onto a train. The driver heads up to the "truckstop" car while his rig is pulled through the city, and then drives off.
The one scenario I see is a new three-track tunnel in one tube from New Jersey to Penn Station, with the middle track (the greatest track height) for freight, and extended to the Sunnyside Yard.
i was just browsing through my circa 1994 SEPTA regional rail timetables and i just realized that TVM's on the rail lines were more more prevailent than they are today. today you can find TvM's at 4 stations, Market East, Suburban, 30th St. and Trenton. In 1994 the Media R3 line and R5 Paoli line had TVM's at almost every station. There was a TVM at west trenton and Lansdale and many many others. why did SEPTA get rid of the TVM's and force ppl to buy tickets from often closed station offices or train conductors.
The TVM's were all over the Regional Rail system at one time but they were found to be tempermental, especially when located outdoors (as is the case at many outlying RR stations) and have gradually been removed. There was always the problem of the TVM not working and the crew ready to assess the surcharge when you boarded and told the conductor this news (the crew almost always would not believe you). I had this problem once at University City station, another TVM location. I believe there are still TVM's at the Airport stations also.
The TVM's at Suburban are rarely used. Most riders are confused by them. I had trouble with these once also, finding myself in a situation where I had to buy a ticket quickly and resorting to a TVM. I got a ticket but it had no validation stamp (and I didn't really look to see if there was one). Of course, a conductor quickly found this and a short discussion followed, but she did believe me, surprisingly.
I noticed that in the Sub portion of many subways the ties are embedded directly in the concrete that makes up the base of the tunnel. I was wondering how or if these ties are ever replaced. I also noticed that the track in the PATCO subway still is jointed rail and does anyone know when it dates from. I also think that they just replaced that rails on the MFL with clipped CWR instead of spiked jointed.
There are two layers of concrete: the track concrete and the "invert", or structural floor of the tunnel. The two are seperated by a layer of waterproofing or other bond-breaker, and to replace the ties the track concrete has to be demolished. In NYC you might notice areas where the track has been "skeletonized" in the tunnel; i.e. the concrete has been removed and new ties are in place and awaiting new concrete.
Some that ride the 3 around New Lots may notice this now above the station mezzanines.
If the waterproofing material between the two concrete layers were also resilient, then the noise level would be considerably reduced.
The waterproofing material doesn't help much, since it has about a foot of track concrete on top of it.
[The waterproofing material doesn't help much, since it has about a foot of track concrete on top of it.]
If you could find room for a suspension with the right resonance frequency you could cut down on rumble. The trick I think would be to do it without allowing large amplitude movements, otherwise the tracks would sway, not a good thing . . .
Hey, has anyone toyed with active noise cancellation? The technology is out there, albeit you'd need damn loud speakers and even with a lot of them it wouldn't be effective above the midrange (wavelength too small).
The two primary factors that create low-freq subway noise are both
antiques: heavy outboard-bearing truck designs from the 1920s
and jointed rail. Both will be disappearing over time.
The new cars will have modern trucks and continuous welded rail
is being slowly worked into the system.
Screaching and squealing around curves will diminish significantly
if the TA starts using the friction modifier gels on the wheel
treads as stated in that NYT article.
They installed a lot of welded rail some years back, but they seem to have slowed down tremendously . . .
Well, the trains certainly have.:-)
Why don't they switch to radial trucks now popular on many frieght locomotives.
The concrete embedding is sturdier and provides for the water drain in the middle o the track. Also, the MTA, during the course of track reconstruction is switching from the traditional railroad spike andclamp to the more modern "ram clip". This is the curly piece of metal that is welded to th rails. They are supposed to be sturdier and quieter.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
The spring clip is NOT welded to the rail.
-Hank
Much quieter than the spiked rails, but the "bolted" clips seem to be just as quiet.
Is the curly clip also known as a "Pandrol clip" . If so, they have been around for a long time.
Chuck Greene
Yes, they are commonly known as Pandrol clips. They are quieter in that the plates are made of a hard rubber instead of steel, and thus absorb the vibration in the rails, and are sturdier in that the plates are secured by lag bolts instead of spikes, and the clips replace the spikes that secure the rail. Aging of the ties doesn't cause as much loosening as it does with spikes.
The plates, whether they are they use the clips or the small bolted plate that holds the rail in place, are commonly known as "resilient plates."
Thank you for your explanation. I knew I had seen the Pandrol clips
before. I never knew about the "resilient plates".
Thanks, again.
Chuck Greene
Certain freight and transit lines also use the "Double-J" clip which is essentially a piece of metal curled like a J at both end. It is then put though some other kind of brace and is locked in place. These are used mainly with concrete and metal ties.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
That sounds like a rail anchor - the thing that clips onto the underside of a rail, and is put right next to the tie. That keeps the rail from moving longitudinally by anchoring it to the position of the tie - essential for welded rail. But it does not take the place of a spike or a pandrol clip.
Which part of the MFL are you talking about? I always thought the Frakford el was welded, but it may be this "clip jointed" you are referring to. The part between the Frankford el and the tunnel portal, which includes Spring Garden station uses spikes, and the train makes a click-CLACK sound while going over it.
The only places I can think of in the PATCO subway that still have jointed rail are those near the x-overs. I think the rest is welded rail. The rail was all replaced in 1968-69 when the Bridge Line closed, just before PATCO operation in Phila begain.
Ties encased in concrete have to be chipped out with new concrete placed when finished.
The clip used instead of spikes is called a Pandrol clip and works by spring/friction action. Much of the El has had rail replaced with welded rail and Pandrol clips. However, I recall major track replacement projects on the Market St El in the late 1970's which used wooden ties, jointed rail and spikes.
Now the loudest noise from tracks seems to come from the joint were the track sections are insulated from each other for signal purposes. It seems the two sections flex so much as to differ by as much as 1/2 inch , resulting in a pounding sound.One such can be heard at the 7 Ave station of the E upper level, listen to the N and R train above, it traumitizes the whole station. Now lets find a way to minimize the movement of insulated joints. The avid wedge woud help a little.
avid
I asked before, but didn't get an answer before i left.
The 4th ave. station on the F line is the terminus of G. Going northbound, the express tracks feed into one very short spur (i'm not sure if it is 10-car length). What was the purpose of this spur, if any?
It's already been mentioned, extra train storage.
But when the line was built originally, there were trains on the express tracks, not now with the tracks being unused
So? That would be more reason for the 5th track, all the others are used for service.
And as for those express tracks, they were NOT used for service in 1933, they were opened in 1968, closed in 1976.
That's wierd that they opened so late, I assume they were built in '33?
They were opened in '33, but it wasn't until '36 or so that the GG was there to provide service. Maybe they were used in the beginning, but not for a long enough period of time.
There have been several references to, and questions about, this division. The electrification was through to Grand Central Terminal, where the third rail trains could switch off the Hudson Division onto the parallel Putnam line. There was a tower just north of the Van Cortlandt Lake Bridge where the electric trains diverged and the steam main line was reduced to one track for its journey northward. The tower was on the east side of the tracks and may have been "VC".
The electric division never had high ridership, even during World War II. Given that fact, the railroad was wise to close it for cannibalization. While it only used a few of them, the MU cars were really needed by the other two divisions. All the hardware, such as rails, ties (every tie was retrieved as the railroad was picked up), signal-related items and third rail feeders, hardware, contact rail, etc. were needed for the other divisions since specialized materials like those were very hard to obtain during the war.
The primary reason why the line was abandoned, however, was the competition from the Third Avenue Railway's Yonkers division trolley cars. All the cars were attractive lightweight cars and none of the electric division's stations, including Park Hill, were far from an active trolley line. The electric division's terminus was at Getty Square, where the #1, 2 and 3 lines went directly down Broadway to the West Side I.R.T. These cars made good time, particularly on Broadway alongside Van Cortlandt Park, where, unless trapped behind a slower convertible running on the Bronx "C", the cars ran "on the post" (great rides!). Keep in mind that the #3 was as busy as the other two lines even though it was only a long tripper service from Getty Square to the subway. That will five you some idea of the passenger volume along Broadway to the subway. At least two or three Yonkers cars were always in sight from the Parade Grounds at "Vannie", and that was on the weekends! During weekdays Broadway was just filled with trolley cars. The #4 car from Getty Square took you to the east side I.R.T.
Yonkers was a mill town - Alexander Carpet, Flo-Sweet Sugar and Otis Elevator, so wages were not high. The ability to get to downtown Manhattan for only 10 cents was not to be dismissed! Also, trolley riders got on the end of the subway lines so had a high chance of getting seats. This was in an era when many stations had “pushers”, platform men who literally pushed people into the cars in order to close the door behind them.
The sad fact is that the Putnam electric division never should have been built, let alone be electrified. I still remember its short, lonely trains of Sprague MU's, but even as a youngster, its abandonment "to help the cause of the war" made sense to me. The only known movies of the line in operation belonged to Herman Rinke. He never copied the movie and sent it via Railway Express to a railfan group in the Pacific Northwest so that they could view it. Much to Herman’s regret, the movie never made it there and Railway Express was not able to account for it. So, not only was the line short-lived, but so were its memories.
Nice piece Ray.
Just like the NYW&B, and the rest of the Westchester portion of the the Putnam Div, the ridership never materialized, especialy with growth of automobile traffic after WWI. Westchester County truly became one of America's first automobile suburban areas. The longer distance to White Plains was a mainstay of the NYC and the the New Haven had its shoreline communities up into Connecticut.
The NY & Northern got caught up in the political and money messes in the late 19c, where it was envisioned as becoming a transit link to Manhattan. However, by the turn of the century, RR technology was producing heavier equipment that could not be used on the elevated lines.
The NYW&B was the final (and too late) entry into the fray between the NY Central and New Haven, where each had an early interest in the 2nd & 3rd Ave Els. The financial people of the NYC were the 3rd Ave people. The New Haven financial interests were looking to utilize the 2nd Ave el as thier entry into Manhattan to Avoid the NYC Terminal.
However, as stated before, the technology soon outdistanced those plans, unless the New Haven was goin to rebuild the 2nd Ave line for the NYW&B. For whatever reaso, the money was spent on the ultra high capacity NYW&B ROW.
Thanks, Ray, for a good summary. I recall riding it Getty Square to Kingsbridge with mother, grandmother, and sister. I believe there was an access via an office building elevator at Getty Square. For some folk in Yonkers, the streetcar-and-subway ride to Times Square totaled 15 cents: two Yonkers Railway zones, plus 5 cents on the subway. The overlap, I believe was from the City Line to McLean Avenue. Northbound, as I recall, the motorman would halt at McLean Avenue to collect a ticket (proof that you boarded at 262nd St or north?) or ask you to walk forward to add a nickle to the register. I question whether Getty Square trains usually went to GCT or Sedgewick Avenue. Again, thanks.
Speaking of zones, how are they enforced on NJT busses? I guess I should ask on BusTalk.
The topic has drifted from Putnam Electric Division (to Getty Square) to the zones on the parallel Yonkers Railroad Lines 1,2,and 3. Then came a question on enforcement of zones on NJT. From my observation over the years, it is done by requiring the passenger to return the original ticket to the driver on the way out. The Putnam Electric Division used standard railway practice at the time: fares by distance, with either tickets collected by conductors or conductor's receipts issued for on-board purchases.
The R-142s are going to replace the Redbirds on the 2 and lines. But, what about the 7 train? Some of it's cars lack air conditioning, forcing the TA to remove them from service in the summer.
Will the R-36/33 WF cars on the # 7 line ever be replaced? R-142s are presently arranged in 5 car sets, and unless a mass re-arrangement is planned, there will be no 11-car 7 trains. So is there a plan for some future order of cars to replace the 7's Redbirds?
10 car R62 trains will run on the 7. Eventually, the 2, 3, 5, and 6 will be 100% R142, all other IRT lines will be R62.
Why would they do that? Why replace the r-62a's on the 3 and put old cars on the 7? I can understand the 2,5 and 6 getting R-142's, because they have either all redbirds, or a large amount, but why the 3? And, 3 trains can only have nine cars, not 10.
They will have 10 car trains when the R142s arrive. The 3 can run 10 car trains, it just doesn't.
I thought that because of 145th st. (first 4 cars only) 3 trains were forced to run with nine car trains. most r62/62a's have been arranged into semi permanent 5 car sets, except the ones serving the 3 line.
Let's get this straight:
145th Street can support 5 cars, it only opens 4 because of where the conductor is on a 9 car train. The reason it runs them is because some tracks in the Lenox Terminal yard are only long enough to fit 9 car trains. When the number of cars increases, they'll make 10 car trains, but some will still be 9 cars.
And the 3 should be compatible with the 2, which it runs alongside. The 7 is independent and can do anything.
Finally, the R-62s are reliable and have proven themselves and they don't want to rock the boat on the heaviest single line (the Lex is 3 lines). The R-62 can run 11 car trains (and will, don't listen to WMATAGMAGOH) because there are enough singles. As for the logic of running 10 car trains when the R-62s arrive, if they were going to run 10 car trains, they would do so already and scrap the awful singles.
The R-142 is configurable into 4, 5 or 6 car sets to allow the proper consists.
After I wrote this, I thought of something else: I doubt the 3 will have R-142s either. The 3 car trains on the shuttle MUST be R-62 and the shuttle is serviced by Livonia. Livonia will always need some singles (or 4 car sets) for the 9 car trains and therefore it makes sense for that yard to run the shuttle, although anything can change. They could decide, after all, to use R-142s on the 7.
It's also being delivered with sets for 6-, 9-, and 11- car operation (2 sets of each, according to the Bombardier web site) The cars are assembled into sets like this:
A-B-B-B-A, where the A cars have cabs, and the B cars don't. For 6 cars, there is an additional A car, like so:
A-B-BNo clue why 6-cars needs the mid-train cab (< indicates cab direction).
-Hank
Any idea what these will be used for?
Never knew that the R-142 could be re-confugured. Interesting. Can other cars do things like that?
All of the R62/62A/68/68A can, since they were delivered as single cars. The married pair cars (R28/29/32/33/36/38/40/42) must run in odd-even pairs. The R44/46 are a special case, since they were built as single cars, but as A and B cars, so a B car must always be used with at least one A car.
-Hank
With the R44/46, 2 "A" cars must be put at either end of a group of "B" or blind cars. These are the ones without motorman's cabs. I remember 3 car R46 trains on the JFK Express, with one B car attached between 2 A cars.
.....My question is to how the new 142s with thier closed off transverse cabs & with this feature not just only blocks off
the railfan window & brings in the dangerous OPTO operation but also cuts down on passenger space as well right ??
So when the REDBIRDS are scrapped & are no more,... less passengers are carried with the new 142s right ????..!!
New cars less passengers carried less space inside each car more crampted & more miserable total disaster right ??
I am asking this question to all of the threads starting with the FIRST one ( thank you ) ......
Oh, let it be.. Oh, let it be.
Redbirds4Ever
Yes, but they don't NEED to operate that way, at least not in service. I was pointing out the difference between married pairs and linked cars. There are a few A-B sets of R46 on the G, as well as A-A sets.
-Hank
True, but to be a functioning train, you need 2 A cars at each end of any group of blind B cars. Withoug controls, no B car can be used to head any group of cars.
Oh no! Not this discussion again! But seriously, this is what I heard from a car inspector in Corona Yard relayed from the barn chief. Mind you, the TA can and does change its mind day to day (check out bus rosters!), lots having to do with political and rider pressure on them. The line will eventually have 11 car R62A's. The clearance problems have been cleared up in the Steinway tubes. The single car will be in the middle, with 5 car sets on each side of it. Initially, the 5 car sets will come from the #6 line as they become excess there. When? Don't hold your breath. The R142's still have a lot of testing to be done before they are out on the road en-mass. Who knows? Maybe the #7 will some time down the road have a mixture of R62A's and R142's (I know, not in the same train!).
The Singles would have to come from the No.3 Line.
06/03/2000
If the R-62A's go over to the #7, will they just be sent over and start up service, or will they be given a good cleaning, scratch free windows (with sacrificial plastic), repaint end bonnets?
That would be a good start, otherwise the #7 riders may fume about "hand me down equipment" from other lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is my point about political pressure. If the politicians and civic groups complain loud enough, the #7 just may get all or some R142's eventually. Then again, if the cars are troublesome, because of all the sophistication (doors reopening automatically when obstructed. READ: doors stay open a long time because passengers refuse to let them close, for example), then they just may be happy with the old yet proven technology of the R62A.
I notice that at the very start of Monday Night's "The King of Queens" they show the sign Queens painted on some kind of thoroughfare, and I don't know if it's an El, highway, or rr station. And where is that sign located? I've always wondered what section of Queens was shown in the residential sequences that follow. I enjoy the show but I wish Doug looked in better shape. People who hail from Queens don't look like that, do they?
The redbirds are being replaced, but some of them are younger than some of the IND/BMT's heaviest worked cars, the R-32's. How can they allow the R-32's to carry the bulk of the C and E lines, and also have service on other lines as well (N, very rarely Q, R, G, and sometimes A) when they are getting old. My dad works for the TA, and took me to 207 st. yard. The R-32's that we see aren't all of them. I saw a whole train of them that were in quite a need of repair.
If the R-143 (if it goes by that name) cars are indeed built, i've heard they will go onto the L line, a line serviced by the R-40/40m/42's. What about these other lines that are used more, what cars will they get?
The R-143 will replace nothing, it will be a 212 car addition to the fleet. The R-40{Slant | M}/R-42 will be moved over toward other lines. The R-32 was built better than the rest of the 60' cars (BUDD built cars to last), and is expected to outlive them. As it is, the slants are mostly relegated to the Q since the older cars must rest on the weekends.
The R-32 will retire after 2010.
The rest of the 60' ers will retire after 2007, when an order of 660 cars starts arriving (number yet to be determined, the TA might buy some equipment like crane cars, engines, or digital signs and bump the order to the R-200).
BTW: It is my opinion that the R-143 (60' cars) are replacing the R-27/30, which were retired back in 93' , and were replaced with nothing.
Aren't R-142's going to be 67' cars? The R-110b prototype was of 67' lenght, and i believe that R-143's will follow that pattern.
As for R-32's being superior, you're right. Those were R-38's in the 207st yard. And, they seem to fare better than any other remainig 60' car, barring the R-42's. But, old is old. It won't be too long before some of these cars start breaking down regularly. I wouldn't be all too suprised if it was the R-38's first.
There won't be enough money to replace them all soon, and it is a bad idea to replace them all at once. (As it is I think they're making a huge mistake replacing all the redbirds with 142s, they're de-diversifying the fleet as well as setting themselves up for a major crisis in 40 years when they will have to buy 1300 new cars at the same time.) Then, when the replacements get old, there will have to be a gigantic order of over a thousand cars. By the way, it's semi-official that the 143 will be 60', not 67', probably because all the markers are set up for 60' use (only reason I can think of). Also, every single B division station would have to have completely different markers and conductor boards set up, not just the 'L'.
The R143s are going to be 60'. That's what I thought of about the R142s and so many cars at the same time. I think it was a bad idea.
I'm a bit dissapointed that the MTA decided to go with a 60 foot train instead of a 67 foot train for the R143's.
I thought the whole idea of the 67-foot cars was to create a standard car length for the future. Instead of ordering 75-foot cars for most of the B-divsion, and 60-foot cars for the M, J, Z and L lines, the MTA could come up with a car that would be able to be used on ALL B-division lines.
I wonder what the future holds for 75-foot cars: Does this mean that 20 years down the road, the MTA will purchase new 75-foot cars to replace the R-44's and R-46's? Or will they go back to using 60-foot cars exclusively?
The MTA is probably going to revert back to exclusively using 60-foot cars. But at least they'll have rounded sides like the R44/46 and R68/68A cars (I think).
As a train service employee, I like the idea of 60 foot cars. Safer. Doors in between cars can be left unlocked in case a passenger has to move to the next car and/or in case of emergency. This includes crimes in progress, air conditioning failure, skell stinking up the car, or in case of a stalled train ahead and passengers have to exit thru the first car. Sometimes those automatic unlock switches on those 75' cars don't work, and even if they do, the crew has to personally make sure all those end doors are locked by inspection before the train can resume after the incident.
There's a bunch of different ways to look at this.
Yes, it seems like a bad idea to order so many at once. But on the other hand, you can plan towards their retirement, because you'll KNOW when they need to be replaced.
Subway cars are custom equipment, so the more you order, the cheaper they are per car.
Manufacturers don't like to build only a few of something.
-Hank
Aren't there some off-the-shelf subway cars out there? I think Alsthom and Adtranz make them.
Put it this way: I doubt if New York will ever buy off-the-shelf subway equipment.
No such thing. Systems worldwide are much to varied is gauge, tunnel dimensions, and operational requirements. LRVs can be done off-the-shelf, since they DO fit the same general specifications.
-Hank
Interestingly, excepting Boston/SF (USLRV) and San Diego/Edmonton/Calgary, every LRV system has gotten cars designed specifically for them. The lessons of the PCC car have been totally forgotten, and it's the 1920s' again. Every system has "special needs" and only a specially designed car will do.
Even Boston and SF abandoned the standard design car for cars designed just for each.
Standardization might be nice, but we're getting rid of the USLRVs here in SF because they were junk to start with, and they're falling apart now.
Yes, the new bredas have all the problems of custom cars- super expensive, awarded in a no-bid contract that benefits friends of the mayor, etc.
So while it would be nice to see an off-the-shelf car, I don't think anyone who has to ride them on a regular basis is mourning the demise of the USLRV; at least the Bredas don't break down as much, have more doors, and carry more passengers.
A standard LRV (Off the shelf, little modification to suit) could the German one (SD, Calgery, Pitt).
Pittsburgh's LRV's, while being a Siemens car, are not U2's (Calgary, Edmonton and San Diego all got U2's, as they were all built on the cheap (read inexpensive and fast). PAT has had loads of trouble, with the trucks, motors, gearbox being the biggest trouble spots. Monomotored trucks and Pittsburg's grades don't mix well, and PAT has gone round and round with Siemens on the issues. The cars are pushing 20, and PAT is debating fix (rebuild) or replace. Additional cars will be be needed in a few years, and PAT just may go with a custom design for Pgh.
Denver's LRVs are Siemens-built products. Model SD100, to be exact. The fleet now totals 31 units. The new Southwest Corridor is still slated to open next month; however, I don't believe they've resumed test runs. Repairs on the Big Dry Creek bridge appear to be completed.
The R-142 are A division cars and have essentially A division dimensions - 50' nominal length. The R-143 at its inception was planned to be 67' long but this idea was scrapped early on. The R-143 will be 60' long. The prototype was photographed recently in Kobe at the KHI plant.
Do you have any photos or links to any? I'd love to see them.
I'll be sending the ones I have to Dave for posting as soon as I can download them from the memory card.
The R-142 are A division cars and have essentially A division dimensions - 50' nominal length. The R-143 at its inception was planned to be 67' long but this idea was scrapped early on. The R-143 will be 60' long. The prototype was photographed recently in Kobe at the KHI plant.
As for the R-32s, they will be around for a minimum of a dozen more years (all but the R-32 GEs). The R-38 fleet is actually in the worst shape due to very badly leaking roofs. They will be the next B division cars to go.
what would it cost to build a new stainless roof for the r-38's?...
It can be done, but is not worth it for a car near the end of it's life. The car would need an equipment overhaul also, and at this point one might as well save money (yes, save) by building a whole new car. The added maintenance of an old car for the next few years will be higher than a new one, so the new car will be cheaper.
Plus, it will still have carbon steel frames, which will still cause problems.
The R38's are in the process of getting new roofs. Look for them. Quite a few are done.
Not according to the B division project status report from last week. There was no mention of new roofs for the R-38 nor was anything mentioned when I spoke to the 207th Street Barn Chief on Thursday.
OK, I'll have to recheck my sources. I inquired because some R38's I've seen lately have awfully good looking roofs, extremely silver for the entire length of the car, not those vertical "black bands" which I think were put on the plug the leaks. I was told they are being replaced at CI Main Shop. Of course, I don't get down ther anymore to see for myself.
So, perhaps those bands were painted over.
But painting a light color (silver) over a darker color (black), you surely would see some kind of a shadow of some sort. As I said I was told they are being replaced at CIYD Main Shop. And if you look at many R38 roofs now, they sure do look brand new to me! I invite NYC SubTalkers to check them out. If they aren't new, that is a damn good paint job!
Maybe they use lighter strips (or whatever they are). Or maybe it's a thick paint. Or it's two coats.
06/03/2000
Maybe they're using some kind of waterproof type paint, something you would associate with marine use.
Bill "Newkirk"
I honestly don't know what new roofs will cost. However, a consultant engineer was hired to evaluate the feasibility of maintaining the current B fleet. It was thumbs up for the 32s and some 42s. Thumbs down for the 38s and some 42s. The 40s future is unclear. R-44s and (346) R-46s also face uncertain futures. One thing is certain. This will not happen over night or even in the next 5 years.
Considering that the R44/46's were built entirely of stainless steel, they'll be around for as long as they can be maintained mechanically (which might doom the R44 much faster than the R46).
I'll be riding on an R46 in 2020, count on it ...
Actually, the R-44's and R-46's are NOT entirely made out of stainless steel; they have steel roofs like the R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's, and have been subject to rust problems. The R-68's and R-62's have all-stainless steel (except for the fiberglass ends) on their bodies. Additionally, The R-44's uses steel in the "beltrail" area that used to be painted blue; you can see rust and bubbles form under the metallic silver paint applied during their GOH.
The R-44, despite being one of the most aesthetically pleasing subway cars for passengers, has proven to be one of the biggest lemons in NYCTA history. (The "anti-R32") When it came time to GOH much of the fleet, there was even some talk at the time of scrapping them completely.
I have no doubt that the R-32's will outlast all the cars of the 60's and 70's. They were simply built better than their contemporaries. But another factor has been overlooked by many posters on this subject: Fleets that comprise large numbers of cars last longer. The reason? Standardization and the ability to cannibalize retired rolling stock for parts. The BMT Standards probably outlasted the Triplexes because there were more of them. Similarly, the IND R-1-9 series limped along into the late 70's because cars being retired could be stripped for parts to keep the remaining cars on life support. So it stands to reason that the R-32's (originally a 600 car fleet) will outlast the R-38's (a mere 200 cars). Many of the R-40 and R-42 car parts are also interchangeable with one another. I have no doubt that as these cars are retired, we will see strange trains made up of a hodgepodge of R-40 slants, R-40m's, and R-42's. They will probably become the R-30's of their era; off-hour and emergency backup trains.
R-44's? It's not entirely crazy to suggest theat they will meet their demise prematurely. Don't forget, they are also used for the SIRT, and are incompatible with R-46's. (In one of my more whimsical daydreams, I imagined them being overhauled and turned into trailer cars for R-68's)
The BMT standards were phased out over a period of 8-9 years. 394 of them were rebuilt in 1959-60 and soldiered on until August of 1969. Tha story goes that these cars were in better shape than the R-1/9s and consideration was given to keeping them and scrapping the IND veterans. The unrebuilt ones were replaced by the R-27/30s. The Triplexes were retired way too soon; they were still in tip-top shape at the time of their withdrawal.
The R-1/9s suffered from neglect during their final years and became a sort of unwanted stepchild. The prevailing attitude was "we've got new cars on the way, so we won't bother with the old ones."
That's a very brash statement since none of us are guaranteed the next 20 years. While the R-46s were 'my' cars for over a decade, I don't share your optimism of where they will be in 2020. The fact is that they were overhauled in 1991 and will be due again in 2003. That will extend their life to 2015 at best. Anything beyond that is unknown at this point. Considering that they are an operational headache - some consultants have recommended limiting dependence on the odd-ball car fleets.
I was under the impression that the R46 is one of the best performing cars in the fleet today. Why are they an operational headache? The only downside hey have, at least as far as I could determine is that they can never be used on the BMT Eastern division. Why do you call them "oddball" cars?
operational headache =
not compatible with other fleets.
Limited use around the system.
lack of flexibility in configuration.
Well compatibality shouldn't be a problem, as most car types aren't mixed anyway. As for limited use around the system, I'd say all 75' cars have this problem, yet the r68 aren't going to be scrapped soon.n And for the configuration problems, most of the newer cars (including the brand new R142) today are being linked into 4/5 car sets. So as long as you don't mix them with other types and you keep them off the BMT Eastern Division (where they're not needed), I can't see any of these reasons being considered to justify early scrapping of these cars.
Of course you are correct and would be so in a sane environment. While the issue of compatibility is raised, the TA goes out and buys 2 essentially identical car classes (R-142 & R-142A) that are not compatible. Ditto the issue of flexibility. As I said, those issues were raised by a consultant while deciding which fleets would be maintained and which wouldn't.
Are you serious? The 142 and 142A can't MU?
Jeff H.
I've seen the R-68 and the R-68As MU. They should set up the R-142 and the 142-A to MU
Jeff H.
I've seen the R-68 and the R-68As MU. They should set up the R-142 and the 142-A to MU
BMTJeff
The 2 R142 models can't run together? What moron at the MTA is responsible for this, and when will he/she lose his/her job??
Don't feel bad, the two R62 models can't MU either.
wayne
Yes they can! Any two SMEE cars can MU with each other,
excepting the R44 and 46 classes which have different couplers.
By MU, I mean that the basic train functionality will be there:
stop and go, buzzer and maybe door control. There are a host
of reasons why one wouldn't mix certain car classes in service,
some of them technical, some of them administrative.
The R-44 and R-46 have compatible mechanical couplers. It's the wiring of the electric portions that keeps them from MU-ing.
And has the person responsible for THAT been fired as of 6/5/2000?
I heard it was for the TA to see whether the Kowasaki cars or the Bombardier cars are more dependable than the other one. Plus, both companies know that the TA needs lots of cars in the future, so both companies don't want car models mixed either. I know there is sealed bidding, but the company with the more dependable (R142 vs. R142A) car would somehow get the upper hand to build future car orders.
Aparently I have posted something based on information that I misunderstood. I just phoned a very reliable source of information regarding the R-142s. This is what he told me:
"The R-142 and R-142A will MU together with 100% functionality!"
He also went on to tell me that at the present time, it is doubtful that they will be permitted to do so in revenue service.
The error on my part was one of interpretation of what I had been told. I'm sorry for the confusion,
It's OK. Based on their track record, it's perfectly normal to assume the MTA will do the bone-headed thing over the sensible thing.
I heard otherwise when the cars were ordered, so I trust issues of compatibility were addressed and those problems were solved.
Wayne, R-62 can MU with 100% functionality with any NYCT car except:
R-29(or is it the R-28, I forget)
R-44
R-46
R-110A & R-110B
R-142 & R-142A.
They are not run together for the same issues that are ignored on the R-32s but followed with the R-68 and R-68A.
The 207 Street IRT overhauls and the M&K redbirds have differences in the electric portions, one having a three row pin setup and the other four rows. Why wouldn't the R62 not be able to MU with the R28/29s? I have made main shop tranfers with them with no consist problems, before and after the R62 were linked. Does 100% fuctionality include the lack of IC pins or some other misc devices that you are talking about?
It's either the 28s or 29 that have the 3-row electric portions.
I remember working 239 Street and all of their M&K cars had four rows and the 207 had three. R28s and R29s all had four rows, at least back in '97. Next time up that way, I'll look again but for now I am playing with EPO13. Just why aren't the R62s capable of MU'ing with the R28/29s?
Since one has the 3 row BL-39 electric portion and one has the 4 row BL-52, it seems pretty obvious that some circuits won't go trainline.
Okay, here is the answer from the manual.
R-28 and R-29 have either BL-25 or BL-26B electric portions. These are the 3 row type. They were not changed during overhaul. Everything else using the H2C coupler uses a BL-33 or BL-37 which are 4-row electric portions. Hence the R-28/R-29 will MU with each other but not with the rest of the fleet. One exception may be the WF R-33/R-36 which according to the manual has BL-26 Electric Portions.
Hmmm, I thought a number of cars were upgraded to 4 row portions
after GOH, during the famous "oops, maybe we should have separated
the PA control from the H trainline" episodes in 1991-1992.
I _thought_ the only remaining 3-row jobs were the Pelham 26/28
fleet.
Mixing a 3-row and a 4-row portion causes only minimal problems.
Intercom (if equipped) won't go trainline and PA will probably
not work correctly. What other circuits are on the 4th row?
I can't think of any.
I'm not an IRT person and I admit I can't keep my redbirds straight (except for the WF R-33/R-36). I know that there are some Redbirds without the 4-row EP and that they are not 100% compatible with the smee cars that have the 4-row EP. If it's 26s and 28s, I accept that.
There are some WF R-36s on the 6 which are almost always found intermixed with mainline cars.
I don't know about that one either. In 6398's last transfer, which was from Concourse to 207 St, it was tugged out of Concourse on the end of the train with a couple of 2700s and some ratty Pelham R36s. Aside from the fluctuating SAP, which has always happened when R68s are MU'd to older smee, although not necessarily first generation, the train ran from both ends and did not have to be flagged even though the number 6 wire on the R16 was not intended for E.C. I remember differences in the switching configuration and the 13 circuit, I think 6 being for series on one and 13 for side destination illumination. I can't provide hard DATA, except that Mr R46 was there too as a witness. After that day, I had trouble believing anything I read in work manuals or operating instructions.
On "old school" equipment, both 6 and GS have to be energized to
pick up the group. If you had the enercon switch on the s***can
(apologies to Steve, but I believe I am allowed to refer to the
R68 fleet negatively in the past tense....at the time (1989?) that
was an accurate description) in LOCAL mode then the 6 wire would
always be energized and the R-16 would pick up and all would seem
normal. Otherwise, I'd think it would not have taken power.
No longer Jeff, 6 wire (which was switching) is now essentially unused. The GS wire is used for first point. This is why it takes the brunt of the transient spikes from the propulsion side.
By the way, transients on the air brake side are equavilent. Those transients are what is responsible for the deterioration of the micro-switches in the NYAB Electric Self lapper.
Notice I said "old school"! There was an obscure safety reason
for the seemingly redundant use of GS and 6 at the same time --
to make it harder for a wiring harness cross to cause a false
application of power. However, there is still another redundancy
in that the 1/2 wire must be energized before the line switch picks
up. That redundant 6 wire was first grabbed in the mid-80s during
the flushing cars' GOH for Enercon. Later, during the PA-HVAC
control line separation project, 6 was grabbed for PA control.
Surges on the A and R lines shouldn't be as high in voltage (smaller
coils) but since those contacts are closing and breaking often
the damage is even more severe. You have to wonder how NYAB
could design something like that with little Cherry switches
and expect it to hold up.
Licon or ITW, the manufacturers of the switches, produced a switch that was supposed to be resistant to transient arcing. However, as you know, electrical arcing produces ozone. Ozone causes plastic to deteriorate rapidly. Hence the switches will fail. BTW, the suppression on the coils and within the circuit did not help.
Thanks to all (Train Dude; Engine Brake) for clearing up that confusion - I remember somewhere it was posted that the two R62 types couldn't MU....for reasons other than you described above.
wayne
Nah, the Westinghouse R62s and the GE R62s can run as a train, although not likely in passenger service. The R44/46s can NOT MU. The brake pipe and straight air differences, as well as the lack of a feed valve on Westcode equipped cars prevent normal transfering of cars including both types; as well as the electric portion wiring as Train Dude described. I never heard of a restriction on car moves involving R28 or R29s and R62s, whether GE or Westinghouse. I had a transfer a few years back involving a pickup at the East of 7700s, a swing over to Mosholu for some R62s and the balance to the Main SHop at 207. Except for the lack of IC for the double end man, there were no air brake or propulsion problems, and furthermore, no restrictions, implying that the move is legal.
I always see R26, R28 and R29 all mixed together on the #5 train. I know all pre-R62 IRT types can run in the same train. Never saw a mixed consist of R62/R62A and Redbird.
wayne
There are also some reliability issues with using WH master
controllers with GE packages in the train, in some equipment
classes, owing to the less beefy fingers in the WH controllers.
Also, although they are supposed to be equivalent, the smoothest
ride would not be well-served by mixing WH and GE packages, or
WABCO and NYAB air brakes.
Jeff, his is very true. In the GE control package, The Line Breaker, the 'S' Switch and the 'P' switches all have very beefy coils by which they operate. When the fields collapse in these coils when the T/O goes to 'coast', the transients on the GS wire can excede 450 volts. (I actually measured this on a scope). This will easily pop the shunt on or burn the tips on the 14 and 14C fingers in the Westinghouse Master Controller.
06/03/2000
[As for the R-32s, they will be around for a minimum of a dozen more years (all but the R-32 GEs).]
Why the GE's first, are they problematic?
Bill "Newkirk"
They have no working AC units, and are out of service during the summer. Basically, all 8 of them are useless and should go ...
Why weren't they rebuilt with working A/C units during GOH?
Not sure. GE overhauled them, and for some reason they didn't install them properly, and later refused to fix them. You'd have to ask someone who is more knowledgable for more details.
The cars were overhauled by Buffalo transit using Sigma HVAC. It was a complete failure. Sigma is gone. Parts are not available. It was determined that the replace the HVAC with Stone Safety or thermo-king would be prohibitively expensive.
The R-32 GEs ( cars 3594-95, 3880-81, 3892-93, 3934-37) were rebuilt by Buffalo transit with Sigma HVAC units. These units were a complete failure. Parts are no longer available and replacement with Stone Safety or Thermo-King would be prohibitively expensive as the entire car would need to be re-piped. Hence, the scrap pile!!!!!!!
06/03/2000
When they said the GE R-32's, it didn't dawn on me about the 10 GE overhauled units. I was thinking of the old split between the GE and Westinghouse cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Two words:
Stainless Steel. The stuff takes forever to rust, and as long as you maintain the mechanicals, the car will last forever.
-Hank
Stainless steel may take forever to rust but it is subject to metal fatigue none the less and most are carrying rebuilt but original trucks for the type. Surprisingly enough, another train of R38 has been converted to AC traction so maybe one or two of them will be spared for the late future.
Self Explainatory Title! Since When!?!?!?!?!?
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
The R38's which had AC traction motors a couple of years ago were failures. They were 4040 to 4049. They have all been restored to their original configuration. I understand there are 8 more assorted numbered AC traction R38's in CIYD which have not been in passenger service yet. Had the numbers, but misplaced them. Sorry!
Metal fatigue is a very slow process. If that was the only factor in the lifespan of the R32, then they'd last for a century (if maintained properly).
Yes. And fatigue also requires mechanical stress, which subway car bodies are not often subjected to. The frames will fail long before you will see fatigue cracks on the body.
-Hank
None of the Redbirds are younger than the R-32s. Some of the last Redbirds, the R-36s, were delivered the same year that delivery of the R-32s started, 1964. The oldest Redbirds, the R-26s, date from 1959-60.
David
Make that 1958 for the R-26s.
Make it whatever you want, it's 1959.
David
According to "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual", my oft-quoted source of car information, Dave is correct. The R-26s were built & delivered between 1959 and 1960.
I stand corrected. Were the R-22s still being delivered in 1958?
Yes. The R-22s were delivered in 1957-58.
David
Why don't they use the express trackson the F/G line anymore? It seems perfectly logical, and there are numerous transfers to the express. Why not extend G trains to Church Ave., and Let F trains run express? It would save a lot of time, especially at Bergen St.
Restoration of Culver express service was proposed a few years ago, but people at the local stops north of Church Avenue protested the prospect of losing some of their service. The G was not deemed a practical substitute by these riders, since almost everyone who would board a G would end up transferring to an F (or to an A or C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn).
David
It was said that the G trains runs too few. Not many people at the local stops like to make the transfer anyway. What might be a better plan would be to have one F branch run local from Manhattan and terminate at Church with the other G (both currently merge along the same track anyway), while the other F branch from Manhattan run express to Ditmas and then local to Coney. How does this plan sound?
This sounds like a good idea. The F is extremely crowded between Jay and 7th ave.
Another way to reduce F crowding in manhattan would be to restore the K, Essex is always a very long station stop in the am rush.
we discussed this before, they could go back to the old way, The Exp ran local between CI and Kings Hwy, and then ran Exp to Jay St, The Local Started at KH and ran Local, The G started at Church, this during Rush Hours. This could happen someday again.
06/03/2000
Re: The old (F) Culver Express.
Wasn't the switch north of Kings Highway removed (on southbound track) which makes this move impossible?
Bill "Newkirk"
The switch from Manhattan Bound Local to the express is removed (track as well).
And, of course, it can never be put back.
He's referring to the service that ran north of Church in the late 60's/early 70's. Trains which terminated at Kings Highway made all local stops, and Coney Island trains ran express from Church to Jay St. Since their Manhattan-bound service was cut in half, people at the local stops rightfully complained. It was terminated in 1973.
Only a new route, running local from Church, up 6th Ave. would allow the resumption of F express service.
There's only a couple of stops between CI and Kings Highway, and the trains don't seen to really load up till about 15th st or 7th ave. Running trains local from CI to Ditmars and then more locals termination at Church seems to be the plan.
The F already has very frequent headways (on paper) so any extra service might cause capacity problems further down the line, like in Queens.
Give Rudy G a shovel, and have him dig a tunnel from Jay street to the manhattan bridge south tracks!
Dave
Nah, I'd rather see a DeKalb-Rutgers tunnel connection.
Only the addition of a new, seperate Sixth Ave local (V?) line would allow the resumption of Culver Express service. The G is not an option, as it doesn't go into MAnhattan, and partial F service would not be worth running ...
What line and station was the last to be built on the system? What year was the final one built and are they planning on building any other lines throughout greater NYC?
The Queensbridge line was the most recently opened. As for future lines, the connection between 36st. and Queensbridge will be done this fall, possibly be used for an extended GO, but no new routeing until 2002.
2001 for 63rd Street Connector, not 2002. As stated, however, the last stations to open in the NYC Transit System are on the 63rd Street Line, which opened in 1989. They are: Lexington Avenue, Roosevelt Island, and (the current terminus) 21st Street-Queensbridge. The 63rd Street Connector has no stations.
David
06/03/2000
[2001 for 63rd Street Connector, not 2002]
This is of course depends on the full arrival of the R-143's for the (L)(M)? We do need additional equipment to runs this, right?
Bill "Newkirk"
Technically, no. The Q train could be extended to 71st Avenue or 179th Street utilizing the current fleet and a few donors from other shops. However, the time between trains would be substantially increased on that line. Ideally, 140 cars or 14 train-sets are needed to extend the service with the current frequency of service.
4 sets could be acquired from the G's extra A-A cars if they cut it back to Court Sq.
Which Bronx subway station is in the most dangerous and delapitated condition.
Unless one of our posters is an engineer who works on stations for NYC Transit, any answer to this question would be based on opinion and not on fact.
David
I heard last night on the channel 5 news that Metro North got 9 new trains to add to the 3 lines. Does anyone know which line is going to get the bulk of the cars, and what type of cars they are?
Thanks
Clark Palicka
I couldn't find any moe information about this, but are you sure Channel 5 didn't simply mean they were adding additional service? Remember the railroads run on a timetable basis, not headways, so adding a "new train" may mean say, a 5:15 to Stamford that didn't run before, but not new equipment.
I thought the subways also ran on timetables?
What the New Haven line is doing is having some existing trains make additional stops that used to be bypassed but no extra trains
Several local news broadcasts are carrying a story about sabotage intended to slow or stop progress on the Skytrain. The incident involved the segment of the Skytrain that crosses the Belt Parkway and heads north along the Van Wyck. According to the broadcasts, up to 6 cans of diesel fuel or gasoline were stolen and used to set fire to a $1.2 million crane. The crane was destroyed. During the fire, the 100 foot boom of the crane fell, narrowly missing two firemen. According to the reports, local S.E. Queens residents have been trying to stop the project and are annoyed with the Port Authority because of noise and damage to their homes. No suspects yet (or 10,000 suspects depending on your point of view).
Ummm...that's Airtrain. Skytrain is in Vancouver :-)
David
OOOOPS - One bad for me. Otherwise, the story stands.
Sounds like some REALLY nasty NIMBY's or could also be some kind of internal labor dispute.
We'll have to wait 'n see what develops.
Doug aka BMTman
Sure! Where activisim fails, resort to random acts of violence. It happens everywhere. The boom fell due to the loss of hydraulic pressure when the hydraulic lines failed in the fire. One firefighter was injured, but not seriously.
-Hank
Are you sure it was the hydraulics? The crane involved in the incident did not use hydraulic pistons to raise and lower the boom. It was the older type with a cable-winch system.
-Daniel
I'm going by the report from the FDNY.
-Hank
R142 Test Line 2 Weekdays
Southbound
706A
1020A
140PM
458PM
814 PM
from Flatbush Av
841AM
1202 PM
0322 PM
637PM
958 PM
R142A Line 6 Weekdays
Southbound from Pelham Bay
6AM,,808AM,,1024AM,,1236PM,,252PM,,458PM,,712PM
Northbound from Brooklyn Bridge
705 AM,913AM , 1126 Am, 142 PM ,356 PM,602PM,819 PM
R142 Line 2 Saturdays
Southbound from 241 st
703 AM, 1025 AM, 144 PM , 504 PM, 627 PM
Northbound from Flatbush Av
848AM, 1208 Pm, 328 PM ,648 PM , 1011 PM,
R142A Line 6 Saturdays
Southbound leaving Pelham
703 Am, 915 Am, 1127 Am, 137 PM,347 PM,557 PM,807 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
811 AM, 1025 AM, 1234 Am, 244 PM, 454 PM, 704 PM ,915PM
R142 Line 2 Sundays
leaving 241 Southbound
651 AM, 1027 Am, 152 PM , 526 Pm, 850 PM
Leaving Flatbush Av Northbound
846 AM, 1211 PM, 341 PM, 712 PM, 1036 PM
R142A Line 6 Sundays
Leaving Pelham Bay Southbound
656 Am ,911 Am,1127 Am ,138 PM,354 PM,616 PM,830 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
803AM, 1021 AM,1236 PM,248 PM,504 PM,723 PM,936 PM
When does this start??? I can catch it on the weekends....
3TM
No Start Date announced,Keep Watching,,30 Day Test
Last I heard was June 15 but subject to change.
YES, I will be running that train 2 days during the week and once on Saturday.
The R 142 falls on 2 of my weekday runs which are the 8:08AM And the 12:36PM out of Pelham Bay. Out of Brooklyn Bridge is the 9:13AM and 1:42PM.
On Saturday I will be running the train for the 3:47PM out of Pelham and the 4:54PM Out of Brooklyn Bridge.
Dave are these non-revenue test runs or test runs with passengers?
I'm riding June 17th and would love to get a ride on it.
How about some times for key stations, like
#2: Penn Station or Times Square, Borough Hall
#6: Grand Central, 125th street
Wayne
Me and Trevor and were discussing this yesterday. All I know is that on the 6 line he says the first one pulls out June 15 at 6am on the Pelham Terminal on the 6 line. I won't be able to be there because of a Regents(ARGHHHHH) but I will be on that afternoon. I hear it is supposed to run all day.
My regents on that day starts at 12:00, so I will be skipping the optional review class beforehand to ride the first run. Now, to explain to mom why I'm leaving at 4:30am...
If all goes well they should be in Revenue service but I'm not sure about what time they will arrive at the major station stops.
I'll check into it and post.
I am also figuring this out. Name the trip on the 2 on weekdays and Saturdays and I can give you the times at timepoints on the schedule.
How about Times Sq?
Times Square is one of the stations. I might finish this thing tonight or before I go to New York on Monday and will upload it at that time. Stations I will have times for are 241st, East 180th, 149th, 135th, 96th, 42nd, 14th, Chambers, Nevins, Franklin, and Flatbush on the 2, and Pelham Bay Park, East 177th, Hunts Point Avenue, 138th, 125th, 68th, 42nd, Astor, Bleeker, and Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. When I finish, I will post on the board. It will also be uploaded on to my web page for download.
DISCLAIMER: TIMES CAN BE OFF BY A FEW MINUTES. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO GO TO THE STATION AT LEAST 5-10 MINUTES BEFORE THE TIME I GIVE SO THAT YOU ARRIVE BEFORE THE TRAIN DOES AND NOT AFTER. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT COMES AROUND AGAIN.
Question to Pelham Bay Dave:
I'm from Sydney, recently spent 10 days in NY and rode a lot of the subway, and like to keep an eye on schedules and subtalk. A question, if I may:
You say you may be driving the new R 142 train on weekdays, ex Pelham at 8.08 and 12.36. Running time to City Hall is about 55-57 mins, so arrival there would I assume be about 9.05 and 1.35 approx. You then say you will return at 9.13 and 1.42. This tends to indicate that you will step back one or two trains either at City Hall arrival, or departure track. I rode around the loop last year in the PM rush, and it was very quick - hardly time for a change of crew.
I would be interested in details of your working, assuming my timings are correct and published time-tables have these running times.
Thanks. Ian
Well there is no crew change at Brooklyn Bridge and the running time is 58 Minutes to 59 Minutes from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. On the 8:08 it arrives at Brooklyn Bridge at 9:07 and leaves at 9:13. There is a train on the uptown side and in the loop. So by the time I discharge the train and take it around its time to go. During Rush Hours theres a 6 Minutes layover with a train leaving every 3 Minutes. On the 12:36 it get to Brooklyn Bridge at 1:33 a train. the train ahead is a No.6 to Parkchester that leaves at 1:37. So my train would be in the loop. The headway is then 5 Minutes with a 9 Minute layover
Also NO PASSENGERS are allowed to ride in the City Hall Loop as ordered by the New York City Police Department However sometimes there is no enough time to get people off the train. I hope you did enjoy the view.
Pelham Bay Dave,
Thanks for your note and yes, the view was fine if a bit 'in the dark!' It was an experience, however. We got around in about 90 secs, and set off north in another 30, so things must have been just a bit behind.
New York is one great system, anyhow. I enjoyed it immensely.
The train you where on must of been late. Ofcause thats normal for PM Rush Hours on the No.6 Line.
Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood. The R142's were supposed to be tested for 30 days @ 24 hrs per day. The schedule seems to leaave very large gaps at night.
The rest of the time is for analysis of data collected while the cars are in service.
David
So there will be a few computers n'stuff still in the cars, or just in the cabs or attached to the trucks? Maybe they will close one car and keep everything in there?
What's the latest word on whether the R142/R142A test trains will begin passenger service tomorrow, June 15th?
If you have access to a "Public Access" TV station there's some infor in this month's Transit Transit. There also have been a number of threads here, so if you don't get a specific reply you might search for some of these recent discussions (personally I haven't been keeping up with them).
Mr t__:^)
Since the crane was clearly leased, the attack might have been against the leasing company-Bay Crane. Or the arsonist was simply dumb.
At any rate, a new crane was delivered on Saturday-very little loss of time.
1. I was on a Manhattan bound Z at 8:00am. There was no skip-stop service, even though it went express after Myrtle. Is this normal during this time?????
2. How come the rest of the R143s will go to the M line and not the J line??? Does it have to do with space at ENY and FP yards????????
3Train#1940Mike
The poster was referring to a draft car assignment that came out a while ago. The final car assignment has not been determined, so where the remaining R-143s will go (after the L line has been filled up -- that much has been determined) is anybody's guess.
David
They were probably missing a J train, that went out of service either enroute or at the terminal. When this happens, they'll have the following train make all stops to pick up the slack. As far as the R143's go, whatever they don't need on the L will go to the M so they can run OPTO service on the shuttle nights and weekends.
I think the Manhattan-bound Z runs only until 8am on weekdays, even though the maps and schedules say that it runs "rush hours", which in the morning, is supposed to be 6:30 - 9:30.
I live in Woodhaven and work in Manhattan, and the only times I have seen a Manhattan-bound Z at Woodhaven Blvd. are the times I have arrived at the station before 8:00.
Likewise, the Queens-bound Z cuts off much earlier than the end of the afternoon "rush hour", which, according to the map, spans 3:30 - 8:30. I don't know the exact time that the Queens-bound Z stops running, but I think it is around 6:30 or 7:00pm.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Of course, while my post above relays my understanding of the hours of the Z, it does NOT address the question of why that particular Z made all stops (which was the question asked)! Sorry about that.
It could have been the last Z of the morning which was run like a J, or even a mis-signed J.
Sorry to miss the mark in my first post.
Ferdinand Cesarano
More likely the Z ran local because of a gap in service in front of it. Sometimes in the PM I ride Z's which run local east of Myrtle because of some delay with the J in front of it.
The first Z train leaves Jamaica around 7:10 and runs every 7.5 minutes until around 8:20.
Reverse direction, the first Z leaves Broad St. at 4:43 and runs every 7.5 minutes until around 6:20.
Um... I think you're catching Salaam sickness. Why so many question marks. I think 3 is the most someone should use in a sentence.
The M is the only short off-hour shuttle with a conductor, why? Because there isn't a single car that can run on the Eastern Division that has a transverse cab, the R-143 will change that. If there going to be used at night, they might as well be on the M during the day.
What's up with all the vadalism inside these cars. How long has this new movement(scratchiti) been around and what if anything can the MTA do about it?
Scratchiti has been around since the mid-1980s, when NYCT started installing vandal-resistant window frames to thwart vandals who would kick out the panels. Glass didn't work well with the frames, so they went to plastic. Unfortunately, the plastic was easily scratched, so NYCT has gone back to a kind of glass that will work with the frames. However, the glass is not scratch-proof or scratch-resistant.
The R-142/R-142A and R-143 cars will have windows that feature a "sacrificial" layer of plastic that can be removed and replaced without removing the window from the car. Additionally, CCTV is being tested in a pair of Redbirds (sorry, I don't know the results).
David
I was on a Coach USA bus yesterday that had a big sign as you entered telling you that you were on candid camera.
Did the subway shut down at all during the notorious summer of 1977?
The subway did shut down in 1977, but not because of Son of Sam or anything like that. There was a huge blackout that affected the entire city and more in mid-July.
David
It was this blackout which precipitated the looting and rioting. I recently watched a documentary on the History Channel comparing the 2 major NYC blackouts (1965 and 1977). Even though I was alive to remember the '77 blackout, I had absolutley no idea that the depth of the destruction during 1977 was so horribly. Now I understand why Bed-Stuy looked like Berlin circa 1945 when I rode through it on the J train as a kid.
I still don't understand why it got so bad everywhere in '77. Last year, Washington Heights was blacked out for a similar amount of time during an equally oppressive heat wave in July, but nothing major happened at all.
You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?
I don't recall other neighborhoods hit equally hard. One perception was that the blackout permitted many disenfranchised minorities the excuse to vent their anger at what Al Sharpton refers to (now - he was not around then)as interlopers. The residents destroyed most of the long standing (and presumably Jewish owned) businesses. When the smoke cleared, most decided not to rebuild their businesses. this left opportunity for the minority enterpreneur to move in. What you see today is the result of the demographic shift in small business ownership in the area.
I was living in Flatbush at that time and it was hit pretty bad. As a matter of fact one of the neighborhood stores -- Bedford Camera -- was made "famous" by being one of the first stores in the city to get Federal aide from the devastation (they got write-ups about it in the dailys).
The day after the looting young punks were going up and down the streets hawking stolen goods. Even weeks after the Blackout dudes would walk into barber shops and whatnot asking people if they wanted to buy a camera, TV, whatever (they were always turned down).
Doug aka BMTman
[You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?]
Bushwick may have been hit even harder than Bed-Stuy. From what I've heard, Broadway in Brooklyn (the J/Z's route) was a respectable, if not quite prosperous, commercial area before the riots. Today, 23 years after the fact, it still hasn't fully recovered.
Yeah, but it's better than it was in the early 80's. Looking out the window of a J train circa 1981 (if it wasn't painted over with grafitti) all I can remember seeing was burned out buildings and vacant lots. It actually scared me.
You're right, Peter. If anyone reads Brooklyn Bridge magazine, there is an article about Bushwick talking about the Blackout off 1977.
Unfortunately, I read today that Brooklyn Bridge is going under.
I always wondered how they could afford such a fancy, glossy magazine with such low subscription rates (they owe me quite a few more issues). The answer is, they can't.
Brooklyn Bridge was started by someone older than the internet with some inheritance money. Perhaps it can be reborn as a website -- cheaper than print, and no cost to mail.
Actually, Brooklyn Bridge magazine may yet return. Before this one I remember another Brooklyn Bridge magazine back in the 1970's (there may have been one in the 80's as well).
One of the problems with a borough-based mag is that if you're monthy, chances are that you'll run out of interesting stuff to report on sooner or later. I think the current BB had some great photography and covered some eclectic things about Brooklyn that were interesting and fresh news pieces.
Unfortunately, I think the mag failed by not advertising and having rather uninteresting cover photos. Nowadays you need a "hook" to grab people at the newstands. Whether it be putting a "celebrity" on the cover, or something spectacular, at least some people would have bought issues on esthetics alone.
Anyhow, that's too bad they're going under. Hopefully it won't be for good.
Doug aka BMTman
[Unfortunately, I read today that Brooklyn Bridge is going under.
Brooklyn Bridge was started by someone older than the internet with some inheritance money. Perhaps it can be reborn as a website -- cheaper than print, and no cost to mail.]
That sounds like a smart idea. The $$$ savings in electronic vs. paper publishing are considerable. In addition, I got the impression that BB was aimed at a sophisticated readership, one likely comprised of 'Net-savvy people who actually may prefer an electronic format.
North of Myrtle, it's thriving but when you get south of Myrtle, things start to go downhill.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bushwick, Bed-Stuy and East NY seemed to have gotten the worst of it. All 3 neighborhoods have rebounded, but were virtual warzones for a good 12-15 years after the destruction of 1977. Next time you ride the J train along Broadway in Brooklyn, take notice of all the apartment buildings and stres lining the street. 15 years ago, 9 out of 10 of them were burnt out shells, and had been for years.
Thanks Chris.
I'm from out of town. What erea does the "J" line go through and which neighbourhood would still have the most visible scars today of that infamous summer?
The J passes through Jamaica, Richmond Hill and Woodhaven in Queens, Cypress Hills, East New York, Bed-Stuy, Bushwick and Williamsburgh in Brooklyn.
thanks for the info guys.I'm coming down mid-June and these are spots I'd like to photograph while riding the system.
[Bushwick, Bed-Stuy and East NY seemed to have gotten the worst of it. All 3 neighborhoods have rebounded, but were virtual warzones for a good 12-15 years after the destruction of 1977. Next time you ride the J train along Broadway in Brooklyn, take notice of all the apartment buildings and stores lining the street. 15 years ago, 9 out of 10 of them were burnt out shells, and had been for years.]
Bushwick still has a long way to go. I'll never forget the time a couple of years ago when I rode at a Z's railfan window from Chambers to Sutphin at twilight. I noticed that the tracks became much brighter as we got into Woodhaven, even though by then it was nearly full dark out. It dawned on me that the brightness resulted from lit up storefronts on Jamaica Avenue under the elevated structure. And that explained why it had been so much darker over Broadway in Bushwick - many of the storefronts in that area were abandoned and therefore dark.
I can't believe nobody even mentioned Brownsville, (which by the way is in the middle of Bed-Stuy, East NY, and Bushwick. Brownsville by far took the worst of the beatings in the riots of the 70's. There were whole blocks of burnt out apartment buildings there, alot are rebuilt now. The 4 block stretch of Howard Av from Eastern Pkway to the IRT el at E98 Street was nothing but burnt out apartment buildings in the early 80's. Bed Stuy on the other hand was predominately brownstones while Bushwick and ENY had alot of private houses.
Did they not use that background to shoot a couple of movies in the late 70's or early 80's. Charles Bronson,The warriors. Just wondering.
They shot "Wolfen" the horror movie up in the Bronx. Hollywood also erected artificial burnt out buildings in addition to the ones already there for that movie. The former 41st Precinct on Simpson Street was used in the 1981 movie, "Fort Apache, The Bronx". One Bronx related movie that was NOT shot in the Bronx was "A Bronx Tale"- that was shot in Astoria, Queens.
I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!
Doug aka BMTman
Wasn't one of those shot in East N.Y. or Brownsville?
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum! ]
If the budget was so tight then maybe they should have filmed it in Troy instead.
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!]
Death Wish was an example of a series that should have been put out to pasture after the first installment. Actually, that's been true of most series, with the exception of Scream.
Speaking of deserts appearing where they shouldn't, it's been said that in the early scenes of Titanic - the highest budget production of all time, and filmed in Mexico - you can see a strip of desert between the ship and the wharf when it's in "Southampton." I don't remember seeing that, but I didn't know of it when I saw the movie.
I haven't seen French Connection 2, but I'll bet there's no subway footage in it.
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in
Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!]
Snow-capped mountains are visible in the background of Jackie Chan's Rumble in the Bronx. It was filmed in Vancouver.
BX55: I lived in Astoria the last 14 months before we moved to California and I was sure that area looked like Queens to me, either Astoria or Long Island City. Are you sure A Bronx Tale WAS shot in Astoria because if it was then I did see what I thought I saw. I wonder why it wasn't shot in the Bronx?
For #4 Sea Beach Fred:
The reason I heard for shooting the film "A Bronx Tale" in Astoria, Queens rather than in the Bronx is because the streets where it was supposed to be taking place on Arthur Ave./the Belmont area and the streets there are too narrow apparently. It's also very busy there at times and would be hard to shoot there.
(For those of you who don't know, it's off of Fordham Rd. in the Bronx not too far from Southern Blvd. It is STILL a very safe place and many Italians have stayed in the area while new Albanian refugees have moved in.)
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWwwwwwww ALBANIANS? Damn Drug Traffickers!
Long live the Serbs!
Say NO to Greater Albania...
or they might make the Bronx a part of Albania too.
Which ain't a bad idea.
Hey - long time no hear! You missed a post from yet another South Bend native a week or so ago. He wanted to know what lines the Redbirds ran on.
Wonder what part of town he's from...
hey whats up...
been away for a time..
busy doing other stuff.
Sorry, but my buddies in what is the former Yugoslavia are the Croatians.
Its really nice to see Sea Beach Fred & BX55 getting along so nicely now. I thought there was going to be a war between them last summer!!!
last summer?
Dang a year has gone by
I'm not sure BX55 has completely forgiven me, but there is absolutely no residual anger on my part, none whatsoever.
You two could bury the hatchet once and for all privately.
Oh, you're forgiven. No bad blood there. LOL
Thank you BX55 and Steve 8AVEXP. I'm still wondering how I got involved in that embroglio in the first place, but I'm probably better off not knowing.
Consider it over and forgotten. (sniff) I love these (sniff, sniff) happy endings. Where's my handkerchief?
Out of all the communities that were hit the hardest by the 77 riots and fires,which ones have never come back?
[Out of all the communities that were hit the hardest by the 77 riots and fires,which ones have never come back?]
Brownsville, for sure. Bushwick has come back somewhat, but it still is way short of a full recovery.
Obligatory caution: as I've noted many times, neighborhood decline is a complex process that seldom can be reduced to one or two neat factors. Even without the riots, Brownsville and Bushwick might very well be troubled areas.
Thanks Peter.
So even before the riots, these comunities have had problems. Has the MTA ever closed stations in drug infested neighbourhoods due to the violence problem. If so which ones.
[Has the MTA ever closed stations in drug infested neighbourhoods due to the violence problem. If so which ones.]
Not specifically, but Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle sort of counts. It was shut in 1995 and not included in the line's recent rehabilitation. Dean Street's problem was not so much violence, as its popularity among farebeaters. Some estimates said that farebeaters significantly outnumbered paying riders.
I'm not sure about the other boroughs, but in the Bronx the idea of closing staions was proposed. The idea was to close public places like schools, post offices, and subway stations in the South Bronx so that people could move out and they could just "abandon" the neighborhood in a sense.
There is ONE LOT next to Prospect Avenue IRT station and I hear there is a blighted patch along Third Avenue between 161st and 169th Street - BUT here is the other side of the coin: Alighting from my Redbird #5 train at the quaint Freeman Street station and walking up a nearby lane, I was greeted by the friendly noise of a backhoe merrily digging up a lot for the foundations of new homes. Not a single abandoned building did I see. I saw two-story private houses with lots next to them turned into gardens. Did I feel unsafe there? NOT IN THE LEAST. And the walk from Simpson Street to Hunts Point Avenue along a thoroughly rejuvenated Southern Boulevard was a marvelous revelation. It is now bustling shopping street with stores, restaurants, banks etc.. It was largely abandoned when former President Jimmy Carter visited nearby Charlotte Street in 1979. What's at Charlotte Street now? Why, it's Charlotte Gardens, a pleasant, tree-lined cul-de-sac right next to Fr. Louis Nine (pronounced NEE-nay) Avenue (formerly the desolate Stebbins Avenue), lined with well-tended one-and-two-family homes. Rubble? Not much. Weeds, mostly, and a few tires and mattresses now and again; maybe a sofa or a stove here and there. The burned-out and fire-damaged buildings are few and far between. There has been a recent fire in a commercial strip near 174th Street and Boston Road, but it may be gone by now. West Farms Square area has had a complete makeover as well. The Bronx? IT'S LOOKING UP - WAY UP.
Anyone for a walk through Crotona Park?
wayne
You're right, Wayne. I believe the commercial strip on Boston Rd. and 174th Street actually had TWo fires. It's strange because the building just outside of the station has been left burnt for quite a while and a friend told me that the burnt building a cross the street was on fire a second time a few months ago. I'm not sure about those two buildings now because April was the last time I came around that particular area of the Bronx.
What was that station we got off at last fall to walk over to the 6- Intervale Ave? The area certainly looked as if it was on the uppity-up.
I have been hanging around the Longwood areas Steve B is talking about in the Bronx. Banana Kelly, the neighborhood organization has a lot to do with it. I feel pretty safe again.
Banana Kelly also refers to the curved section of Kelly Street between East 163rd Street and Intervale Avenue, shaped like a Banana.
I remember one utterly infamous block - Boone Avenue, around 174th Street near the Cross Bronx Expressway. I accidentally got off the Cross Bronx to avoid traffic back in 1976 and wound up in there - the most forbidding street I've ever seen - a canyon of 6-story apartment building shells with mounds of trash in the pothole-marked street.
It appears to be gone now.
wayne
Wayne,it's refreshing that finally one person knows about Banana Kelly, who I constantly make reference to. It's great to see that you are in the least bit educated on urban history.
I also remember the failed attempt to dress up the abandoned buildings in the Bronx by painting "signs of life" in the windows. It didn't work.
I remember a beautiful Art Deco apartment house, white brick with red trim, at Cross Bronx Expressway and Clinton Avenue, which had fallen into ruin years ago. I wonder if it's still standing, and, if so, has it been renovated?
wayne
When we look back in hindsight, what the hell was the government thinking with that concept of painting life in the windows of abandoned bldgs? Once again hard earned tax dollars at work!
Any signs of those bldgs still around. If so where?
This idea is so funny to me now!
I think there is ONE or TWO windows in an otherwise occupied and rehabbed building along Westchester Avenue somewhere, perhaps above Simpson Street. I don't think there are many of those fake windows left - either their buildings have been rehabilitated or torn down.
wayne
That "dressing up" thing for building facades was an Ed Koch idea.
Doug aka BMTman
It sure worked well!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha good little story and pleasant visual, thanks. Have you been back to that street recently to see what it looks like.I can't imagine anywhere in the South bronx , anything resembles that today.Most of that area seems to have come back from that notorious time. Although not every part of it has had the same fortune. Which one in your mind might still be slow to recover?
Melrose/Morrisania is still rubble for the most part. A drive up 3rd Avenue north of 161st is pretty depressing. Not much reason to live there after the 3rd Avenue El diappeared, free bus transfer non-withstanding.
[Melrose/Morrisania is still rubble for the most part. A drive up 3rd Avenue north of 161st is pretty depressing. Not much reason to live there after the 3rd Avenue El diappeared, free bus transfer non-withstanding.]
Transit and city officials probably thought that demolishing the el would *improve* the neighborhood. Most likely, they were thinking of Third Avenue in Manhattan, which of course did experience quite a revival post-el. Unfortunately, things turned out a little different in the Bronx.
How are areas like Mott Haven and Hunts Point. I have seen pictures taken about 10 years ago. Lots of rubble mostly around St-Mary's park. Hunts Point I heard was mostly industrial with the market and all but that lately with Giuliani and Disney as best friends (or so it looks like) that the Times Square prostitution probleme has now moved to the Hunts Point district of the Bronx. Any truth to it?
It's not even that they moved from Times square to Hunt's Point after Giuliani's power trip. They were always there and even used to be as far as Tiffany Street from what I've heard.
It was Simpson Street. That whole corridor along Southern Boulevard has undergone a transformation.
wayne
Thanks. You have to remember that prior to last fall, the only time I had ever ridden on that line was on August 9, 1967. Simpson St. is right where the line turns from Westchester Ave. to Southern Blvd., isn't it?
Yes that's the place.
It sure is! And I would DIE to have that apartment by the north end of the s/b platform; too bad it's a karate parlour. Redbirds singing around the clock....I wonder how the R142's are going to do on that 10MPH curve...only 43 degrees, but tight as a drum.
wayne
Knowing how many people hate train noises I'm sure given the opportunity a lot of them would gladly trade with you!I think I'd enjoy a stretch of straight rail better though..like between Simpson and Freman, about halfway perhaps. Watch 'em highball. I lived on Walton just off Tremont for 3 years and had a nice view and hearing of the Jerome line. Never bothered me except watching TV..every time I train went by the picture would jump up and down. Now I can watch and hear the BNSF trains about 700 feet away.
Have they improved the quality in noise reduction on the trains in the past years or has this been the case for as long as we can remember?
It's the architecture - even the newest IRT models (R62, R62A) scream on tight curves. They've taken to lubricating tracks (PATH) and adding sprayers (NYCT). The curves are just too tight in some spots.
wayne
In Chicago, Grand-Halsted on the Blue line was closed when that area fell into decline. It has since recovered nicely, and the station has been reopened.
In previous posts to this thread there have been inferences that anything west of Woodhaven was subject to fire and riots during the blackout. I would think this would include Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. I have always thought of Cypress Hills as the area within the limits of Atlantic Ave to the south, Jamaica Ave to the north, Alabama Ave to the west, and Elderts Lane to the east. This area is due west of Woodhaven, Queens.
Was this area involved in the fires and riots? I had several relatives living there at the time, and nothing was ever mentioned about it then!
[In previous posts to this thread there have been inferences that anything west of Woodhaven was subject to fire and riots during the blackout. I would think this would include Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. I have always thought of Cypress Hills as the area within the limits of Atlantic Ave to the south, Jamaica Ave to the north, Alabama Ave to the west, and Elderts Lane to the east. This area is due west of Woodhaven, Queens.
Was this area involved in the fires and riots? I had several relatives living there at the time, and nothing was ever mentioned about it then!]
I don't believe that Cypress Hills was affected much if at all. Most of the rioting was further east, in Bushwick, Brownsville and nearby areas.
Cypress Hills is as far east as you can go before hitting Queens. Those areas are all to the west of CH.
We always here about Bed-Stuy. Brownsville, East New York as beeing hit hard by the 77 riots and partially coming back as a comunity.
What about "Woodhaven".Was it hit as hard as brownsville. Are there still burnt out buildings along the "EL" or are they pretty much gone.How safe is "Woodhaven" today?
"Woodhaven" (you put it in quotes for some reason) was not hit at all by the riots. People who live in "Woodhaven" are capable of conducting themselves properly in a civilized society. Saying the other neighborhoods consisted predominantly of baboons is an insult to baboons.
>>>>Saying the other neighborhoods consisted predominantly of baboons is an insult to baboons<<<<<
I assume a statement like this can be attributed to youthful ignorance. As you grow older you will find that most of the people in even the worst neighborhoods are honest hard working people.
It's obvious that ageism is the last acceptable form of discrimination.
BTW, Anti-suburbanism is not a real form of discrimination. Choosing to live in a bland, sterile subdvision is a lifestyle choice like any other and isn't something that people can't control.
I think by choosing to be a suburbanite, you are choosing to shelter yourself and your children and not allow them to see things as they are. Suburbia to me is not reality but instead a very small piece of reality. You can't raise your child in an Upper-Class/Middle-class predominantly White neighborhood then set them free into the city and expect them to understand why certain people do what they do. By living in the suburbs, you are depriving yourself of so many experiences.
I think your hypothesis is somewhat simplistic. There are trade-offs in everything in life. If you choose to live in the inner city, you learn to be street smart or suffer the consequences. In the suburbs you may not get the substantial inner city education but the kids stand a better chance of not ending up in jail or as a statistic. As we see every day in the newspaper, failing 'Streetsmarts 101 can mean death. The cost is steep for skills that have limited utility in later life. How many inner city mothers and fathers, if given the choice, would opt to stay in the inner city as opposed to moving to the suburbs if the economic means were available?
Sorry if you thought my previous post indicated ageism or anti-suburbanism. It was meant as neither. However if the previous statement wasn't made from youthful ignorance, then one must assume it was from innate ignorance. I would prefer the former.
Well put, Tom. When my children were young, my wife and I were the most intelligent people in the world. As they got older (read: teenagers and young adults) they couldn't believe how stupid we were. Now, as they move through and beyond that stage, it's amazing how intelligent we are again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon!
You know it's funny how things work out. When I was coming up, everything was run by stodgy old farts who just couldn't understand that my fresh new innovative ideas were just what was needed by society. Now I am bothered by a bunch of kids with crazy impractical ideas who just don't appreciate the wisdom that comes with age. What bad luck to have fools in the generations before me and the generations after me. Have a nice day!!
The blackout/riots occurred just before iI quit and left the city. I was working a job in Pitkin Yard that night as luck would have it and walked home afterwards to my home on Grant Ave. just north of Atlantic.We had no problems whatsoever and that would be ditto for City Line, Woodhaven, and the part of Ozone Park that bordered Cypress Hills. To put it mildly it was an island in the middle of hell.But the riots were the last thing that happened to confirm I did the right thing moving to Montana. On another related note small town America is no escape from all the plagues of the cities..most of themm yes. Drugs are just as bad and since suburbia has been mentioned in this thread I'd be willing to say you don't escape that in suburbia, any more than you do in hick towns.{and I'm a hick). The major difference is there isn't as much , or little violence as those who indulge can pay for it. But I Lived in one town 99% white that had too many burglaries, both home and auto; noplace is too safe.
Biged,
I know that you lived on several different streets while in Cypress Hills, but how many years were you in CH before you left?
Incidentally, the check is in the mail!
All neighborhoods have began a rebuilding process but most of the neighborhoods which were hit the hardest (East New York, Bushwick, the South Bronx) are still not what many consider to be pleasant. Places around East New York/Brownville are still somewhat burnt out today.
And there, rising from the ashes and weeds, immediately adjacent to the Junius Street IRT station in the heart of Brownsville, USA, are Nehemiah Houses, dozens of them, which have created a pleasant, green neighborhood. One of our posters lives there, he can attest to this.
Down near New Lots (Lost?) BMT station of the "L" line, Mother Nature is reclaiming several square blocks north of Linden Boulevard.
Broadway/Brooklyn is still missing buildings in key spots along the way. Haven't been up Greene Avenue since 1980; last I looked there was still nothing there.
wayne
[Down near New Lots (Lost?) BMT station of the "L" line, Mother Nature is reclaiming several square blocks north of Linden Boulevard.]
In a similar vein, and one with transit relevance to boot, it was noted that until its recent demolition, the old Budd railcar plant outside Philadelphia was home to a large herd of deer.
Not surprising when you consider the R-32s could run like deer.
Wayne, have you or any of the other SubTalk "L" line riders noticed that the "landmark" Flxible bus that was used as part of a retaining wall for that scrap dealer at Blake and Junius Streets is missing??
I noticed about a week ago that the yard there has been cleaned up and is now used as a storage yard for a construction company's heavy-duty equipment. That red and white (and graffitied) Flxible that's been there for years is no more. I wonder what happenned to it? Scrapped?? Salvaged?? Anyone out there w/info would be greatly appreciated.
(P.S. -- SubBus, I hope you're reading this)
Doug aka BMTman
These neighborhoods were not destroyed in the riots. They were burned out over time. The only place specifically hit by the riots was the commercial street Broadway, Brooklyn. To see how it could have been different, see Pitkin Ave, Browsville, which retained its vitality even as the neighborhood collapsed (and even though the owners of the commercial property all live down in Florida).
Check out the immediate area around the New Lots Ave. IRT terminal. This area was here many of my friends (not me) went to get their illegal narcotics in the late 1980's. It was no man's land for the crack wars. Now, the empty lots have brand new tract houses and most of the burned out buildings have been renovated. Blake Ave. looks like Forest Hills now.
Will it last?
You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?
[I still don't understand why it got so bad everywhere in '77. Last year, Washington Heights was blacked out for a similar amount of time during an equally oppressive heat wave in July, but nothing major happened at all.]
One theory is that many of the people in Washington Heights are immigrants from the Dominican Republic, and are used to blackouts due to their native country's unreliable electrical grid.
There was also a significant police presence (you'd know:-) Secondly in '77 the city was in a totally different economic realm.
Arti
While there was alot of looting during the blackout and people made out like bandits (Fortunoffs on Livonia Av closed down because of it) that wasn't the real reason for the riots. The riots were mostly racial and economic.
Are we talking about the stations or the actual streets here. How many people died during the rioting. Do we know?
I thought Fortunoff closed because they moved to Old Country Road before that. All eight stores where on Livonia Avenue.
They were in Westbury for awhile before the Brooklyn store closed. Their advertising actually said Fortunoff's Westbrook Stores.
Economics were the prevailing reason. The economy was in the dumps and in the city there was high unemployment (particularly among black and hispanic youth). Mix that in with a sweltering summer and the power keg was there. The lit fuse was the blackout.
Doug aka BMTman
are we saying this was inevitable?
If we are accepting that the riots were inevitable, do we go back in history and accept that all uprisings were justified because of socio-economic political and racist anger?
We are the human race not the animal kingdom. We're expected to react with our brains by putting our emotions aside
As humans, we are all individually responsible of our acts.
Too bad we don't live in such an ideal world!
Too bad others always have to pay!
Perhaps you should write a thesis on the subject.
Sorry guys, I don't want to take up anybody's time. It's just a very interesting part of NYC's history. For something as grand to happen and touch so many people,some drastic events must have lead up to the cap blowing off.
Actually, to be honest, that business about the lightning causing the blackout was erroneous -- I have to admit it was me. You see I had the TV on, the toaster was making toast, I had my electric razor going and all the lights were on in every room. Something had to give.
Either that or heypaul was doing some of his bizarre scientific experiments that involve quantum space-time theory and heavy atomic particles. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Perhaps his R9 cab is real, coming from an R9 he stole and tried to power in his garage using common household 120 VAC current, thus blowing the entire grid....lol
Maybe heypaul was building Beetleborgs or other such monstrosities in his lab and decided to activate one of them.
Seriously, I remember hearing that a transformer got hit by lightning somewhere in Westchester and it caused a ripple effect throughout the Con Edison system.
wayne
That sickening theory was broached during the Reginald Denny assault trials on the Left Coast several years ago. Basic theory was that young black males are more likely to be influencedby mob-rule and mob activity than others. Recently, that theory was revisited on an episode of "The Practice". To that extent - the theory tried to explain away the wanton violence. Personally, I think it's so much sociological clap-trap used by liberals to explain away the abundance of this kind of behavior in some communities. Again, my opinion. On the otherhand, we can't argue with history.
But whites can also be lead by mob violence. Here in New York we had the Howard Beach and Bensonhurst racial incidents. Also, the deep south -- until recent years -- was ruled by racial mob violence. No one race/ethnic group holds the "award" on "bad behavior".
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, you are 100% correct. I said that I thought that the argument was crap. You just cited the examples that prove it. Unfortunately, the jury in Lost Angeles gave the argument some creedance.
True. However, nobody is seriously trying to excuse the behavior of the white mobs in those incidents. Perhaps they were reacting to their fear that having too many black people in their neighborhoods would ruin them with crime and destroy property values. This statement is as ridiculous as any economic excuse used for minority looting in NYC in the summer of 77 or the looting in LA in 1992.
No. Just that the "right combination" of elements were there for the destruction that went on.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm poor. It's hot. I want a new color TV. I don't get the correlation ...
I'm not trying to justify any of the looting. I don't know what went on in the minds of those who looted.
Anyhow, stores were randomly looted -- not as if some jerk says "yeah, I could use a new TV today". The entire blackout period was a spontaneous event and a sad one, and I seriously doubt -- and hope -- that we don't have anything like it again.
Doug aka BMTman
Spontanous? It lasted for almost 48 hours, yet the looting only stopped when everything worthy of stealing was already stolen.
I can tell you exactly what went on in the minds of the looters:
"FREE SH$T!! NO COPS!! I WON'T GET CAUGHT!! I WANT AN 8 TRACK PLAYER!!!"
Yep, I think I still have my lifted 8-Track in the attic ;-)
LOL. Why in the world did manufacturers build those things in the millions with no fast-foward or rewind buttons is beyond me.
The one thing that's interesting about the lemon 8-Track tape: I believe it was invented by same guy who brought the world the Lear Jet. Wasn't his name John (?) Lear?
Just interesting that the guy who gave the world the first private-executive jet plane, did a lousy job with a low-priced high-volume, mass market item.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>LOL. Why in the world did manufacturers build those things in the millions with no fast-foward or rewind buttons is beyond me.<<<
Or perhaps the question should be is why did millions of people buy them? Actually in later production they did have models with FF. But they could never have rewind because of the continuous loop design of the tape inside.
BTW, I never owned one, but did work in a place that sold and fixed them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The fast forward feature was nothing more than a 2X which advanced the tape twice as fast. Not that I was into 8-tracks, but my father won a Fisher all-in-one compact stereo outfit in 1978 which even allowed you to record 8-tracks. It had that 2X feature.
[The entire blackout period was a spontaneous event and a sad one, and I seriously doubt -- and hope -- that we don't have anything like it again.]
Better police responses hopefully will make a difference in any future blackouts. We saw that in last summer's blackout in upper Manhattan, when a big, quickly deployed police presence helped keep things peaceful. Memories of 1977 must have remained strong even after more than two decades. In contrast, the event that came to mind when the lights went out in 1977 was the big northeastern blackout of 1965, which was largely peaceful. That may have accounted for the NYPD's apparent failure to have contingency plans in place.
Unfortunately ConEd still has a rather outdated system that is prone to overload, taking a look at least year's blackout of Northern Manhattan and the Queens Blackout of 1996.
It still relies heavily on outside sources of power, especially from Westchester county. Thunderstorms can happen and knock out important transmission lines and substations, and severe heat can too.
This combination can happen again.
I am amazed at how I haven't heard any plans from the MTA if God forbid, a city-wide outage happens again. How are they going to move people in the city? How are they going to get people out of stuck trains (there's bound to be some stuck in under-river tubes as well)?
And the pressing need for more power plants meets opposition in Queens. How can we even allow selfish NIMBY's to put it NYC at risk?
Unless NYC increases it's generating capacity and updates it's old feeder cables, a blackout is likely to happen again.
It wasn't so horrible in 1965. Cars and busses would still run. The commuter RRs have diesel locomotives and coaches.
Thank you for remembering the Queens blackout of May 1996! We had an early heat wave, and when Con Ed saw the power grid crashing, they arranged it so Queens would lose power. The rationale was reportedly that Queens is a 'low crime' area so it was better to black IT out than the perceived 'high crime' areas of other boroughs. Great message there- better to punish the 'good' people so the 'bad' people don't revolt!
It sticks out in my mind because we had a sick infant and were going to close on a co-op the next day. Try manuvering around an apartment cluttered with boxes while holding a flashlight!
[The lit fuse was the blackout]
Now that's a somewhat awkward metaphor :-)
Seriously, I have a hard time accepting economics as the primary factor. While the city's economy wasn't great in 1977, it surely was a lot better than it was in the early 1990's - when there weren't any riots (I'm excluding Crown Heights because of its fairly obvious racial/ethnic nature). Maybe it really was the blackout that was the precipitating factor. It was just enough to push matters over the edge.
No, I believe that the looting was merely some people who saw an opportunity to get something for free and took it. I don't care how poor you are, or what you steal, it's simply wrong. Even single mothers on welfare who stole diapers and formula (which is what many liberal historians would like you to believe the 1977 looting in NYC and the Rodney King looting spree in 1992 were all about, even though it wasn't.) should be held accountable.
Chris, your response is a little simplistic. Of course stealing is wrong, but not all looters are people who would normally take anything that is not nailed down.
I was present for the '65 and '92 riots in Los Angeles, and mob psychology caused many people who would not ordinarily steal to join in. In 1965 I was standing outside of a liquor store that was being looted. Many of the neighborhood people who were entering and leaving with an armful of goods (including diapers) felt they were doing nothing wrong because if they didn't take the goods they would be destroyed by fire and urged me to join in (I did not). The same thinking was used with regards to TV's and furniture. The damage and looting was limited to the neighborhoods where the participants lived. In the aftermath of that riot many people with good jobs and no prior criminal history were charged with receiving stolen property.
In 1992, there was little police response to looting, and that fact was widely reported on local TV. This emboldened those who believe it is only wrong if you get caught to rampage accross the city. My impression was that there was less neighborhood involvement in the looting and more groups roving in cars looking for targets of oppurtunity.
"I was present for the '65 and '92 riots in Los Angeles, and mob psychology caused many people who would not ordinarily steal to join in."
As I said, this is more psychological clap-trap from the left-coast liberals to explain away wide spread miscreant behavior in some left-coast communities.
If I recall correctly, the LA riots turned into a "free-for-all" where Blacks, hispanics, whites -- everybody was looting because THEY KNEW THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT (law enforcement was overwhelmed). There is a sociological angle there.
It's still wrong by any standards.
Doug aka BMTman
I was specifically referring to the defense strategy postured by the black men accused of nearly killing Reginald Denny with bricks and sticks. The lawyers brought sociologists and anthropologists to prove that black males have less ability to withstand the pressure of mob violence than do their white or hispanic counterparts. I think that the argument is garbage designed to help excuse murderous behavior. If I were a member of that group, I don't think I'd want to be linked to that argument by virtue of my race.
You're right, Train Dude. I even remember that kangeroo court tactic by the denfense attorneys. That was a pathetic ploy.
Doug aka BMTman
>>I was specifically referring to the defense strategy postured by the black men accused of nearly killing Reginald Denny<<<
Don't knock the strategy of the defense attorneys. If I were charged with a crime I would want the attorneys to use whatever they could to get me off.
The real blame belongs to California jurys that buy that kind of hogwash. If you think back it was California which gave us the imfamous "twinkie defense" when the mayor and a supervisor of San Francisco were murdered.
Law enforcement was not overwhelmed in '92. Law enforcement decided to take a holiday. Quick and forceful reaction to the early incidents would have prevented the wide spread looting that took place. Elements of the LAPD higher than the officers on the street were still unhappy over the "police brutality" charges after the Rodney King beating and wanted to avoid any confrontation with citizens.
Well yeah, mob mentality does play a factor. However, it's still wrong and immoral, and shouldn't be excused under any circumstances.
I certainly was not suggesting looting should be excused. Just that not all who participated were what we think of as criminal types. Also I pointed out the differences between the '65 and '92 riots and looting. In '92 it was nore of a criminal element.
During the '92 riots I was standing in the checkout line of a chain store watching a TV monitor showing another location of the same chain with people walking in and out of the broken front windows carrying merchandise. The chain had a sign that said they would match the price if you could find what you wanted at a lower price elsewhere. I did not say anything, but I was sure thinking I was seeing a place where the merchandise was cheaper.
Anyone who loots becomes a "criminal type". Many in NYC in 1977 and LA in 1992 merely stayed home and did not participate. They are the ones who aren't "criminal types".
Yes they were racial & economic. Unfortunately, the white merchants were run out and replaced by minority upstarts. Unfortunately, the minority businessmen who took their place had little in the way of entrepreneurial skills and so the neighborhoods never fully recovered. the results are evident still.
With the verdict handed down earlier this year in Albany, how close did we come to going through it again?
I don't think that speculations of that type serve a useful function. Clearly, in the Albany case, it was allowed to be 4 white police officers who shot one un-armed black civilian. Had it degenerated, as some rabble-rousers had wanted, into white majority vs black minority, the results would have been probably different.
I've always wondered what many parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx were like prior to the blackouts.
Most of the J ride, especially west of Woodhaven, runs through areas with closed businesses and burnt out buildings. It's such a shame that such vibrant communities were destroyed by a mob of insane people.
NYC should've been better prepared. I think the military should have been on order to shoot and kill any looters, and martial law declared in NYC during the outage. If those procedures were taken, than perhaps
many areas that are now run down would still be vibrant downtowns.
Sometimes we have to sacrifice freedom in times of disaster to save the city, unfortunately that's something alot of people in this country still have trouble realizing.
And killing people is something that saves business I'm sure.
[While there was alot of looting during the blackout and people made out like bandits (Fortunoffs on Livonia Av closed down because of it) that wasn't the real reason for the riots. The riots were mostly racial and economic.]
I'm not sure I believe that. Riots that make a point tend to be precipitated by events--a beating by the police, the murder of Martin Luther King. This was I think precipitated by a perception of opportunity.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong !!!!!! Political or social events provide the excuse for lawless people to act out, thinking they've been given a license to loot. Or perhaps you'd like to explain how the looting and burning of Jewish owned shops in Crown Heights was related to a city-wide power outage. Simply another liberal excuse for criminal behavior. Blame society and not the anti-social?
But the Crown Heights riots didn't happen because "lawless people wanted to act out". It was because the black community was pissed that they preceived a lack of concern for the dead (and dying) children who were victims of an unfortunate accident. There would have been NO RIOT had medical attention been given the accident victims had been attended to first and not the automobile driver.
Doug aka BMTman
Again, granted! Then you have the mob that chased Yankel Rosenbaum down (Ralph Avenue ?) yelling, "Kill the Jew!" Which they (specifically Lemrick Nelson)ultimately did. Yankel Rosenbaum was not the driver of the car that killed Gavin Kato. Yankel Rosenbaum was not the ambulance driver. Yankel Rosenbaum was just the victim of mindless mob violence while Gavin Kato was the victim of an accident, albiet under some arrogant circumstances. Thinking men would have seen the difference. The people of Crown Heights saw it as justice. So much so thatwhen Lemrick nelson was arrested with the bloody knife, after being identified by Yankel Rosenbaum before he died, besides other eye witnesses, the good people of Brooklyn saw fit to find Lemrick Guilty.
History: Following the acquittal, Lemrick went to live in Atlanta, where he was involved in another stabbing incident. He was then tried for violating Yankel Rosenbaum's Civil Rights and was convicted. Hopefully he's wearing a really nifty skirk in prison, now.
What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? I really didn't understand what was going on at the time (the OJ trial is what really taught me about the justice system and it's shortcomings).
Same basic principle called 'Jury Nullification'. The jury makes its decission based not on the evidence but as a means to right a perceived injustice. This was evident in the OJ case where the jury disregarded tons of evidence because they perceived Mark Fuhrman as a arcist. In the Lemrick Nelson case, it was a bit more incideous than that, however. You also had the David Dinkins machine working the community hard for the acquittal.
[What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? I really didn't understand what was going on at the time (the OJ trial is what really taught me about the justice system and it's shortcomings).]
Never underestimate the ignorance of juries. I sometimes think that being seated on a jury causes the typical person's I.Q. score to drop 15 points.
And how much of an IQ drop did New Yorkers suffer when they elected that incompetent moron "Dinky" Dinkins as Mayor of New York? It sure had to be more than 15 points.
[And how much of an IQ drop did New Yorkers suffer when they elected that incompetent moron "Dinky" Dinkins as Mayor of New York? It sure had to be more than 15 points.]
That's for sure. I'd explain the results by saying that only people with low I.Q. scores voted for Dinky, but that doesn't explain his support on the Upper West Side. People in that area may be naive and unsophisticated, utterly devoid of common sense, but they're not stupid in I.Q. terms.
[That's for sure. I'd explain the results by saying that only people with low I.Q. scores voted for Dinky, but that doesn't explain his support on the Upper West Side. People in that area may be naive and unsophisticated, utterly devoid of common sense, but they're not stupid in I.Q. terms.]
Without reopening the question of whether those people are naive and unsophisticated, they voted for Dinkins because he was black and they thought it was the right thing to do.
>>>>What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? <<<
Jury nullification. In fact, Lemrick Nelson and some jury members celebrated after the verdict was tendered.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And maybe, if justice is fully served, when he gets out someone or some people will give him, what we termed in the army, a blanket party and make it possisble that he'll never have to use his arms and hands again.
Not to open an old wound, but Crown Heights was a race riot, where black people (mostly outsiders from the neighborhood) killed and assaulted Jews and looted/destroyed their property. I don't care if Gavin Cato was deliberatley run over by a Jew driving a car (which he wasn't), it was inexcusable and unjustified.
You are right, but fair is fair. What did you call it when a bunch of white thugs killed a black youngster in Bensonhurst just because he was in the company of a white girl. Who dates who is the business of the two people involved and none of anybody else's business. If I was single and wanted to date a black lady, that would be my choice and no one should make any objection of it. You see, racism comes in all shapes and sizes, and, unfortunately, colors.
[Wrong, Wrong, Wrong !!!!!! Political or social events provide the excuse for lawless people to act out, thinking they've been given a license to loot. Or perhaps you'd like to explain how the looting and burning of Jewish owned shops in Crown Heights was related to a city-wide power outage. Simply another liberal excuse for criminal behavior. Blame society and not the anti-social?]
You're responding to the message I quoted; I was arguing with it, not agreeing with it. As it happens, I agree with you up to a point; I think the Crown Heights riots were opportunistic looting pure and simple, but I think society's misguided policies have to take part of the blame for the anti-social attitudes that led to it.
Thank you Mayor Lindsay. Remember Fun City? sometimes I wonder if that was his idea of fun? It helped push me out of there but I'm thankful that somebody turned the city around , I feel safe every time I visit and hope it never goes back to what it was.
I wonder if things would have been any different if Lindsay hadn't been elected. Would the unions not have gone on strike? Would Rockefeller not have illegally given the sanitation workers everything they wanted, while Lindsay wanted to hang tough? And while Lindsay increased the City's social benefits, he effectively bought our way out of the riots that hit other cities at the time.
Conversely, what would have happened if Giuliani had been mayor then? People yap enough about him as it is, in spite of his obviously wonderful record. I remember a time when it was considered bad form to suggest that welfare recipients "sweep the streets," and people who said subway graffitti was art! Those attitudes are still around--for me, the final straw with the Dinkins administration was when a spokesmen defended the right of bums to piss on the street in Greenwich Village--but at least they're no longer the majority view.
(I wonder if things would have been any different if Lindsay hadn't been elected. Conversely, what would have happened if Giuliani had been mayor then?)
At a recent forum on whether or not Lindsay was the worst Mayor in history, Lindsay-era bureaucrats claimed that the critic had the benefit of hindsight, and of not having to deal with the social convulsions of the time. I know now what should have been done then. Can't claim for sure that I'd have known it then, however.
Would Giuliani have been Giuliani if he had been elected then? He grew up after the civil rights revolution, in a place and time where respect for diversity and racial tolerance are the politically accepted point of view. Given his tendencies despite this, what would Giuliani be like if he had grown up in the 1920s and was faced with the events of the 1960s?
[At a recent forum on whether or not Lindsay was the worst Mayor in history, Lindsay-era bureaucrats claimed that the critic had the benefit of hindsight, and of not having to deal with the social convulsions of the time. I know now what should have been done then. Can't claim for sure that I'd have known it then, however.
Would Giuliani have been Giuliani if he had been elected then? He grew up after the civil rights revolution, in a place and time where respect for diversity and racial tolerance are the politically accepted point of view. Given his tendencies despite this, what would Giuliani be like if he had grown up in the 1920s and was faced with the events of the 1960s?]
Interesting question. I suspect he'd be much as he is now--just in the minority. But who knows--my own views have certainly changed radically since that time, though I must admit that free love was kinda nice
Josh: I know where you are coming from. I used to be a died in the wool liberal Democrat. I am definately not any of that today. We all change----hopefully the character part changes for the better whatever our politics happen to be. That's why I love this website. The philosophies run the gamut, yet we are wildly in love withthe New York Subway System and that brings out the kid in all of us. I think that is a terrific combinantion. What do you other guys and ladies think of that?
I'd say that pretty much says it! It does something to the political discussion--somehow makes it more--what?--real and less partisan? I find myself having more questions than answers.
I'd say that pretty much says it. It does something to the political discussion--somehow makes it more--what?--real and less partisan? I find myself having more questions than I think I have answers, something that's not typical for the male of the species.
That 1977 blackout occurred one day, literally, after I flew out of JFK for Switzerland. We read about it in one of the English papers in Zurich. We still have a copy of Time magazine which featured the blackout as the cover story.
Any way of posting part of the headlines or scanning pictures?
C'mon Borg, don't rely on the internet for all your information. Go to the local library and look up the contemprary reports from the magazines and newspapers. You will find them facinating.
And if you want to learn about the biggest riots in the country, check out the '64 NYC draft riots in library's old copies of the New York Times (Try Aug. 13, 1864)
What date was the Magazine? Don't tell me Sunday, that'll be even less useful as telling me it was written in 1977.
That WAS the summer from HELL!
Blackout, Son of Sam murders, city on the brink of financial chaos...it wasn't your ordinary summer, to put it mildly.
However, the subways were only affected by the power-outage.
If you get to see the "Summer of Sam" movie by Spike Lee, look for my old Dodge Dart (bronze colored). It got 20 seconds of fame in one scene where SOS goes and shoots two women in front of a building vestibule. I thought the movie lacked a focus, but the performances were good.
BTW, there were a few scenes in the Bronx neighborhood where an early '70's fishbowl is used (white w'blue stripe).
Doug aka BMTman
How long was the power out and how did this affect passengers stranded on the system?
2 days. A wicked thunderstorm precipitated the blackout, and the lights went out around 9 PM at night. The next day passed entirely without electricity, and service was restored sometime the next afternoon. Unlike the 65 blackout, which lasted about 5 hours.
I remember also that 1977 was the year that "Saturday Night Fever" hit the screen to rave reviews. It was at the height of the Disco craze that crashed by the end of 1978. Of course, it was also the year of "Star Wars". That was one hell of a flick.
There were no thunderstorm by the time NYC went Blackout after 9pm in July,77 & restored next afternoon around 4pm i think. I was outside playing with my cousins in the little park at Allen St when the whole city went blackout & we couldn't get home because i used to live in project at spanish harlem so we went to stay at my grandmother's house until the next day. Boy it was worse blackout i ever seen. At that time i was only 7 years old.
Peace Out
David Justininao
NYCTransiTrans Gallery PageUPDATED!!!!!!!
Anybody have any pictures or footage of this?
To answer some questions:
There are a few Bronx-based organizations such as The Mid-Bronx Desperadoes, SEBCO, and most well known, Banana Kelly. Banana Kelly has programs which teach basic reading and writing skills as well as other business skills. Banana Kelly has programs in just about anything you could think of. If you want, I'll send you a few links to some sites on this.
Second question...I have recent photos of the South Bronx which were taken in 1999 and this year. I know of a few sites which have pictures. Again, e-mail me about this and I can send you links to sites you'd be interested it. There is one great source of information they many of you I think would enjoy. It's a book called "The New American Ghetto" by Camilo Jose Vergara, a Chilean-born sociologist. This book has pictures as well as quotes and narratives about the experiences Vergara had while visting places such as the South Bronx, Detroit, & Newark, NJ. It's a really great book filled with great pictures. I have a great respect for that man.
I'm not taking shots at anyone, but for people like Chris R16 and Peter Rosa who have these misconceptions and biased views on such issues as graffiti and the intelligence of so-called "ghetto dwellers" sand the under class, this book would be a great source of educational material for you. Maybe you'd finally begin to understand why people act certain ways and become enlightened. Wouldn't it better and less annoying when the statements you sometimes make have validity behind them? In any case, this is truly a great book. Pick it up at the Sociology section of your neighborhood bookstore.
As always, my we-mail address is Nordica@aol.com if you have questions or want additional information on such topics.
....noted UFO investigator Allen J. Hynek (USAF Project Bluebook) mentioned that something besides a thunderstorm was involved in that blackout. Con Ed and NY Power Authority knew more than they were telling when they claimed the blackout, "an act of God". Read some of Hynek's work on this subject. Very interesting, even if you're a skeptic like me.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Con Ed and NY Power Authority knew more than they were
telling when they claimed the blackout, "an act of God".<<<
So the Cigarette Smoking Man, Hillary Clinton or Vince McMahon were involved maybe?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Exactly....;-)
There most definatly was a thunderstorm that night, as I remember it clearly, because at that time thunder scared the !@#$% out of me. The cause of the blackout was a lightning strike hitting a crucial transformer, overloading the entire grid.
I've got to find that copy of Time magazine. It's in the garage somewhere. The cover photo was one of a looting scene.
How did the Queens Blackout of 1996, which affected eastern Queens affect subway service? Were the Queens Blvd IND and number 7 train knocked out? Does the LIRR get power from ConEd's grid in NYC?
I remember reading how a transmission line (the one that runs along the Babylon branch to Jamaica) supplied power for a 6 minute period to eastern Queens before the transformer buckled and LILCO had to cut the power off to ConEd. I'm still amazed at how those old transmission lines are still used, and how they handled such a load, even for such a short time.
I'm suprised there aren't anymore of these lines between Long Island and NYC, for those times when ConEd is short.
I still think NYC is a big risk for blackouts during severe heatwaves because of the lack of transmission cable and plants in NYC. That old abandoned power plant in L.I.C. by the LIRR Sunnyside yard should be brought back, many of the electrical towers are still standing.
It may be strange, but there's some sort of elegance about these metal frame electrical towers, especially in old pictures I've seen.
I assume in the subway all trains are automatically stopped when power fails, but what about the LIRR? Can they "coast" the train into the next station?
Actually, all trains can coast with the power off, the emergency brake (which I think is the only way to stop without power, the regular service brake needs power) will not automatically apply.
The Long Island Lighting Company is no longer. The power lines are owned by the Long Island Power Authority, a state agency and the plants are owned by the Keyspan Energy Group.
When the A train travels over the former LIRR Rockaway Line, its draws power NOT from Con Ed, but from the Long Island Lighting Company (aka LILCO). I believe the neighborhoods in Far Rock and the rest of the Rockaway Peninsula also is grided LILCO.
Doug aka BMTman
Oops! I meant LIPA.
BTW, there are deals afoot at a possible future merger of Con Ed and Keyspan (the new official name of the Brooklyn Union Gas Co.). I'm sure this will mean more confusion in paying our already confusing utility bills.
Doug aka BMTman
With energy de-regulation coming, allowing you to choose your electrical supplier, confusion will abound ...
You ain't just kidding. The unofficial word from many employees of BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric Co's marketing name)is to wait at least a year or more before doing anything.
The people at PNJ (our regional power grid manager association) are worried that much of the national power tranmission system will not be able to handle large-scale power shipments across the country. That's gonna happen when people and companies in Baltimore (or New York) start buying electricity from a supplier in Washington (state). That power will have to travel from there to here - that's across the country - all because they can get it for .02 cents per KW than from the local company. And, since all the local companies (like BGE or ConEd) are regulated, you can bet the "transmission charge") - what the local company charges to get that Pacific power to you - will be structured by the regulatory body so that the company doesn't lose its regulated income.
It's gonna get real interesting - will the lights stay on? the trains run? Wait and see.
I noticed alot of overhead wires in the Rockaways and plenty of the familiar sub-transmission lines, with some metal frame ones west of Hammels wye. I wonder why the Rockaways get their power from LI Power authority (formerly LILCO).
One things for sure, it felt more like Long Island when I was there, and I could get all the LI Radio stations in better than where I currently live (Northern Nassau county).
I'm sure storms are brutal down there. Do they frequently knock out A Rockaway service?
Broad Channel appears to get power from ConEd, a noticable line of subtransmission lines runs south along Cross Bay Blvd toward Broad Channel.
I wonder where I can find info on blackouts in NYC. I find it quite interesting. NYC has too few power plants and relies too much on outside sources, a line of transmission lines coming down from Westchester. '77 could happen again, all it takes is a record hot day and severe thunderstorms to the north knocking out those lines. With only 1 feed from LI, NYC is a blackout waiting to happen. They need to build new power plants. I can't understand how there can be opposition to the recent plant construction in Queens. It's amazing how a whole city's power grid can be at risk all because of a few NIMBY's.
If there was a city blackout today, the subways would be such a mess, many more people ride today than in '77, and could riots once again occur? NYC can't afford to have a blackout. If NIMBY's get in the way they should be arrested.
See how NIMBY's put my area at risk,
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
Not only is it easier to build from Nassau, with a wide overland connection as opposed to bridging the Jamaica Bay, but the Rockaways used to be part of Hempstead.
I was living on Hillside Avenue between 260th and 261st Street on July 13, 1977, about ten blocks inside the Queens Line. There appeared to be thunder and lightning well north of our place; perhaps out over Long Island Sound or even further north. In any event, we never experienced a thunderstorm in our neighborhood proper.
At 9:29 PM, the lights went out. At first I thought it was just our building but I took a look out the front door and Hillside Avenue was dark. It was dark as far west as I could see. I could see light east at the City Line, LILCO (LIPA) territory. But everything else was dark.
Rosemary and I locked up the house and went round to my in-laws over on 262nd Street (right opposite one of Son of Sam's crime scenes) and stayed there a while. Rosemary stayed with them and I went home about midnight. About 3:40AM the following morning (July 14), the lights came on again, but at 3:54AM they went out again, and did not come back on until well later in the day. I picked Rosemary up and we went to work (we were working in the same company at the time), when we got back home, the lights were on but the fridge had melted down and our food was ruined.
We saw the riots on TV; they were at their most intense late in the afternoon of July 14th along Broadway in Brooklyn, from Flushing Avenue to Eastern Parkway. Many fine old buildings were destroyed. An entire block of three-story frame houses was put to the torch on Greene Avenue between Central and Evergreen Avenues, in the residential heart of Bushwick. There was one particularly intense fire going at the head of Stone Avenue (Mother Gaston Boulevard), right near the Broadway-East New York/Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction station complex, between Hull and Somers Streets. Other neighborhoods that were hard hit were Utica Avenue south of Eastern Parkway, and some of the side streets either side of Grand Concourse in the Bronx reported fires and burning.
wayne
I was living in Woodhaven on that night and there definatly was an intense thunderstrom which flooded our basement, right before the lights went out.
I'm sure there was - summer thunderstorms are notorious for hitting hard in one place and missing another not far away. Woodhaven is about 8 miles as the crow files from Floral Park. We saw and heard lots of thunder and lightning but got nothing.
wayne
Wow great story. Has anybody else gone through it as well. I'd love to speak to you about the experience.
You will get an earful if you come down for June 17. Drop me an e-mail and we'll get this arranged.
wayne
My experience was in the rear view mirror. My family had just been driven out of the Northeast by the deep depression of the mid-1970s, after my father had been unemployed nearly a year.
We were living in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which was booming. The national TV coverage showed New York in ruins, with the rioting and burning interspersed with piles of garbage and graffitti. When people though the city was heading down the tubes in the early 1990s, I pointed out that if it could come back from 1977 it could come back from anything.
BTW, in the confusion I'm sure a few landlords torched buildings which has lost their sales value to get the insurance. I've heard this process called "private sector urban renewal."
Could it happen again? Because of a shortage of distribution capacity, the northeast is a "power pocket," and New York City is a "power pocket" within it. There are just a few major transmission lines in. Lots of power plants are on the drawing board; none are built. Another hot summer and who knows?
[Because of a shortage of distribution capacity, the northeast is a "power pocket," and New York City is a "power pocket" within it. There are just a few major transmission lines in. Lots of power plants are on the drawing board; none are built. Another hot summer and who knows?]
Larry, I don't worry about such things. Power shortage: no problem -- I merely put four hamsters on the treadmill instead of the usual two.
The stationery bicycle is also a trusty opton. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Add to that, no one is allowed in heypaul's motorman's cab under those circumstances.:-)
Funny but I missed the whole blackout. At the time of the 'great' blackout, we lived in Starrett (Stalag) City which has it's own electric power generation plant. It's amazing how misfortune can so rapidly turn to an advantage.
Both Starret City and it's sister complex, CO-OP City in The Bronx have their own electric generating systems. Also, Kings Plaza Shopping Center in Mill Basin has a similar set-up.
Doug aka BMTman
What borough is Starrett City in? I never heard of it before.
Starret City is in Brooklyn. Some people claim Starret City is located in the Canarsie section. In reality it is in an area known as Spring Creek (a relatively new designation). This neighborhood is adjacent to City Line (Queens is just over the border at Conduit Ave.).
It's main street is Pennsylvania Ave. The complex is situated between Flatlands Ave. to the north and The Belt Parkway to the south.
Doug aka BMTman
hey gang, looking for any other info on the riots looting and urban destruction during the blackout of 77
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Starrett City is in Brooklyn
BMTJeff
Don't post redundant messages.
Go ahead BMT Jeff. I give you permission to post as many redundant messages as you want, as a matter of fact, do it in all caps!!!
I guess I wasted more bandwidth by posting the response, and therefore causing you to post a response and then this response.
Why should someone post a response to something that has already been answered, and add nothing?
All caps are annoying, it's not just a minor infraction, it's something that newcomers to AOL do until they know better. Someone has to tell them to stop. People who don't like to have errors pointed out are just those who have enough of their own errors. I don't mind being pointed out my errors, how would I learn from them?
Starret City is in Brooklyn. Ever heard of Starrett @ Spring Creek ? It's near Pennsylvania Ave. and Flatlands. It's basically East New York for what it's worth.
If you want to describe it as East New York, it would be more accurate to describe it as the Greater East New York area. This would include Brownsville, Ocean Hill, New Lots, Cypress Hills, Highland Park and City Line.
Not to mention Starett City and East New York proper.
Were the Rockaways affected by the blackout? I know they get power from Long Island, was LI involved?
It depends which blackout. The 1977 one was mostly just the city. Even though the Rockaways are in the city they were serviced by LILCO (now LIPA) and had power. The blackout in the 60's was the whole East Coast including of course Long Island. Although if my memory serves me correct Staten Is for some strange reason had power.
as i remember, satan's island did have power... i think at the time they had a small co-generation plant at the landfill that supplied about 25kw, which at the time was more than enough to power the island...
I think they had power because the power plant technician disconnected the plant from the main grid in time. The plant provided enough power for Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn (including Coney Island).
I wonder what they'd do if a train got stuck in an under-river tube in a blackout. I suppose they'd have to walk everybody out of the train, single file. What did they do in the '65 and '77 blackouts?
Also did places like Flushing and Chinatown escape the riots and looting in the '77 blackout?
Also in the 65 black out, 9 months later had more births in the United States then any week in the history of the USA Records, I think 2.7 million
Yes, and that fact wasn't glossed over in the movie, Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?
(Also in the 65 black out, 9 months later had more births in the United States then any week in the history of the USA Records,
I think 2.7 million ).
1965: Make love, not war.
1977: F..k this, I'm getting paid!
Clearly, in each case the darkness, disruption and chaos made people cast off their inhibitions and do things, including selfish and shortsighted things, they ordinarily would not do.
For the first time in a long time, we head into a summer with rising fuel prices and talk of power shortages. I wonder what people would do if there were a blackout today?
[For the first time in a long time, we head into a summer with rising fuel prices and talk of power shortages. I wonder what people would do if there were a blackout today?]
The NYPD surely has carefully drawn-up plans to deal with a blackout, as was shown last year in Washington Heights. Slow police response to the first outbreaks of looting and vandalism allowed the 1977 riots to mushroom out of control. I doubt we'd see the same mistake again.
I was a member of the National Guard in 1965 and the Watts Riots were not a walk in the park. It's scary when angry people who feel maligned and ignored go onthe warpath. So I can guess how you New Yorkers feel about that "Summer of Sam". But that movie still bugs me. Spike Lee does a disservice to African-Americans when he portrays them in unflattering terms in "Do the Right Thing", but when he disparages Italian-Americans in the Sam movie, he really hits home and pisses me off no end.
Fred, unfortunatly what happened in Howard Beach and Bensonhurst to Blacks was done by Italians. Also Italians do get kind of rough when it comes to street justice to non Italians and themself.
Bob--you are right to a point. Howard Beach and Bensonhurst were the workings of a bunch of ignoramouses, but they do not epitomize the vast majority of Italian-Americans who are ashamed of such doings. But take a good look at the movie, was even one Italian-American portrayed in a favorable light? That's my problem with Spike Lee.
Bob--you are right to a point. Howard Beach and Bensonhurst were the workings of a bunch of ignoramuses, but they do not epitomize the vast majority of Italian-Americans who are ashamed of such doings. But take a good look at the movie, was even one Italian-American portrayed in a favorable light? That's my problem with Spike Lee.
BTW, Spike Lee treats most of his subjects, blacks, Jews, Italians in broad stereotypes (look at Sal and his sons in the Pizzaria, or the Bed-Sty "street characters" in "Do The Right Thing"). If you didn't know Lee was black, it would be hard to tell the ethnicity of the filmmaker. I think that's part of his appeal.
I read a bio on Spike Lee and it turned out that he spent his younger years in the Boreum Hill/Carroll Gardens section which was (and still is) a heavily Italian neighborhood. He mentioned that alot of his Italian-American characters are based on people he knew from his old 'hood.
IMHO his Spike Lee's best movies are "Malcolm X," "Clockers", and "He Got Game" which was shot almost entirely in Coney Island. BTW, in "Clockers," Lionel trains figured prominently in a subplot of the movie.
One annoyingly distracting problem with "Summer of Sam" was that John Legiuzamo (sp?) sounded like a Puerto Rican playing an Italian, which indeed was the case! It was almost to the point of being campy.
Doug aka BMTman
John Leguizamo is Colombian, just for the record.
You're kidding, right? I thought he said he's Puerto Rican? Didn't he mention that in his HBO Special? (Maybe he's HALF-Puerto Rican????)
BTW, good to see ya back at SubTalk!
Doug aka BMTman
Well, I think he's half-Puerto Rican but he was born in Colombia and grew up in Queens (Jackson Heights or Corona, I think...a Colombian part. He looks Colombian. He definitely isn't Italian, that I can be sure of. LOL
Frankly, it doesn't bother me if the person playing an Italian is really Italian or not. Andy Garcia looks a hell of a lot more Italian than I do, and Jews in the past have portrayed Italians is movies.( Remember Edward G. Robinson in Little Ceasar?) I just don't like it when the whole lot of us are all portrayed as a bunch of intolerant and dumb thugs. That is sterotyping to the nth degree. In all movies, there should be people of a portrayed group that can be differentiated from the others. When others see people portrayed in a negative light, there are some who accept those characters as fact.
Frankly, it doesn't bother me if the person playing an Italian is really Italian or not. Andy Garcia looks a hell of a lot more Italian than I do, and Jews in the past have portrayed Italians in movies.( Remember Edward G. Robinson in Little Ceasar?) I just don't like it when the whole lot of us are all portrayed as a bunch of intolerant and dumb thugs. That is sterotyping to the nth degree. In all movies, there should be people of a portrayed group that can be differentiated from the others. When others see people portrayed in a negative light, there are some who accept those characters as fact.
"The NYPD surely has carefully drawn-up plans to deal with a blackout, as was shown last year in Washington Heights. Slow police response to the first outbreaks of looting and vandalism allowed the 1977 riots to mushroom out of control. I doubt we'd see the same mistake again."
I seriously doubt it as well.
However, consider the parallels between the present position of the NYPD and that of the LAPD just before the 1992 riots. Partly out of fear of more excessive-force allegations, but also partly as a police strike ("The media and political figures revile us, and the people spit at us, so why should we risk our necks to protect them? When they telephone the police in a panic and nobody shows up, see how they like it!"), the LAPD just pulled out of minority neighborhoods at the first hint of trouble and didn't answer 911 calls henceforth.
Admittedly, the animus against the NYPD isn't as strong as that against the LAPD, and it isn't focused on a particular event like Rodney King. Also, Guiliani's concept of law enforcement is to stop big problems while they are still small problems, and he would react very negatively to even an appearance that the police were stepping aside and doing nothing. This is very different from the attitude of L.A.'s civil government in 1992, which seemed to agree with the sentiment that a police presence in bad neighborhoods directly after the announcement of the verdict would be a lightning rod for public response, inciting rather than supressing violence. Even a Democratic mayor of N.Y.C. could not spout the mushy "they're just misunderstood" rhetoric of 10 or 20 years ago.
Therefore, a 1992-style police sit-out is unlikely, but certainly not outside the realm of possibility unless relations between the police and the public improve (and from both sides, I might add).
[re NYPD's response to a blackout-induced riot]
[However, consider the parallels between the present position of the NYPD and that of the LAPD just before the 1992 riots. Partly out of fear of more excessive-force allegations, but also partly as a police strike ("The media and political figures revile us, and the people spit at us, so why should we risk our necks to protect them? When they telephone the police in a panic and nobody shows up, see how they like it!"), the LAPD just pulled out of minority neighborhoods at the first hint of trouble and didn't answer 911 calls henceforth.]
That may have been true to some extent, but it had been my impression that the LAPD hadn't been anticipating major disturbances - just like the NYPD in 1977 - and therefore found itself (or perceived itself to be) outmanned and outgunned in much of South Central when violence erupted. Units on the scene decided to retreat and regroup rather than make an immediate show of force. That tactic, of course, proved disastrous, especially to white or Hispanic motorists caught at intersections, but this might be a case of Monday morning quaterbacking. Whether the LAPD would have pulled out if it weren't for the sense of spite you noted probably can't be answered definitively, but based on what I saw and read I don't doubt that it might have happened. Huge angry mobs seemed to materialize out of nowhere, and even the most levelheaded cops probably feared they'd be in a Custer's Last Stand situation.
[Even a Democratic mayor of N.Y.C. could not spout the mushy "they're just misunderstood" rhetoric of 10 or 20 years ago.]
I wouldn't put it past Mark Green.
Miami seemed ready a couple of weeks back with the Elian Gonzalez situation.
>>>> Whether the LAPD would have pulled out if it weren't for the sense of spite you noted probably can't be answered definitively <<<<<
For anyone who saw the '65 L.A. riots or spoke with some of the patrol officers in '92 it can be answered definitively. In 1965 with no advance warning of any possible disturbances, the police were on the streets trying to contain the disturbances. At some places they faced overwhelming odds and were driven back, but at least they were there trying to keep order.
In 1992 all of L.A. knew that if there were not guilty verdicts in Simi Valley there would be disturbances. When rock throwing started at Florence & Normandie about 4:00 P.M., news helicopters were circling overhead showing what was happening with NO attempt by the police to stop it. If a large force had appeared there within an hour of the start of the news coverage, much less total damage would have been done over the next three days. No one came. Individual officers watching what was happening on TV at the local station wanted to respond but were told not to. The police chief decided to attend a political function that evening.
Those watching TV who were inclined to violence saw after two hours there were still no police anywhere to be seen. After that there were outbreaks of violence all over the city.
If Mark Green become Mayor of New York, all the progress of the past eight years goes by the boards. I saw him on two talk shows last week. He is ridiculous to the extreme and makes mountains out of mole hills. He's the kind of person who can make a bad situation worse in 20 seconds. It is incongruous to believe he could be New York's next mayor.
[If Mark Green become Mayor of New York, all the progress of the past eight years goes by the boards. I saw him on two talk shows last week. He is ridiculous to the extreme and makes mountains out of mole hills. He's the kind of person who can make a bad situation worse in 20 seconds. It is incongruous to believe he could be New York's next mayor.]
It is a horrible thought. Green is your prototypical guilt-ridden, out-of-touch-with-reality Upper West Side limousine liberal, less sophisticated than a high-school dropout trailer camp resident in Appalachia. He embodies the sort of attitudes that most people in the country rejected with the end of the hippie era.
Washington Heights last year was an isolated part of the metro-area. This is why there was such a great and strong police presence. if we have another 1977, will the NYPD have enough personel to cover all 5 boroughs as well as they did in upper Manhattan. I doutb it!
It does not say much about mankind that we might not have enough self dicipline to do the right thing under extrordinary circumstances.It proves we need big brother A.K.A the police presence to keep us in line.Yes I know it is only a hand full of the population, but That's all is takes to get the ball rolling..
Man your a strange animal!
[Washington Heights last year was an isolated part of the metro-area. This is why there was such a great and strong police presence. if we have another 1977, will the NYPD have enough personel to cover all 5 boroughs as well as they did in upper Manhattan. I doutb it!]
It may very well be that Washington Heights would have been peaceful even if it weren't for the big police presence. It took a while to get the police deployed in the area, time enough for trouble to have started, but none did. And even afterward, it's far from certain that the police presence would have been a surefire deterrent had enough residents decided to go on a "shopping" spree. Obviously, I'm not saying that the NYPD had nothing to do with the lack of trouble, or that they shouldn't be ready to act if there's another major blackout. They probably should be ready, in that situation, to concentrate their forces in the most violence-prone areas ... and it's a reasonable bet that the Intelligence Division knows where those areas are.
All in all, I'd say that the lack of trouble in Washington Heights last summer is at least in part a tribute to the character of the area's residents. There might indeed be something to the theory that Dominicans can take blackouts in stride - even if that thought causes BX55 to get her knickers in a twist :-)
Wouldn't want her knickers in a twist, that could be ugly!!
Now I remember Pete. I believe it was you that first got into a set-to with BX55, and I jumped in with all fours and got BX55 mad
at me. I think there were four of us that were in a tangle with her. BTW, I finally extricated myself and am back in her good graces. Getting her knickers in a twist? Yikes, that might be a call to arms by her. Be careful, we don;t need any more rivalries spring up here.
>>>>> This is very different from the attitude of L.A.'s civil government in 1992, which seemed to agree with the sentiment that a police presence in bad neighborhoods <<<<<<
Don't knock the civil government. Due to the political corruption of the ‘30s and ‘40s (Think of the movies "Chinatown" and "L.A. Confidential") The reformers separated the police department from the rest of city government. Once a chief was appointed he became as independent as a Federal judge. By 1992, the police chief had his own constituency and answered to no one in city government. The mayor and the chief were not even on speaking terms.
Because of this situation, to provide more control by elected officials, the law was finally changed to limit the police chief to one five year term and one possible five year extension.
I know that there were trains in the under-river subway tubes in 1965 and I assume there were also in 1977. I don't know how they were evacuated though.
Were there any trains in the Penn Station tubes?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll tell you what my Dad did on November 9, 1965 - he had gotten on the "TT" train at Court Street (an R27/30 with coral seats according to him) en route to Broad Street to change for the #15 to Jamaica. He got partway to Manhattan when everything went black and the train stopped short. He told me he sat there for an hour or so and then emergency workers with flashlights led the entire "TT" train's passengers back to Court Street via catwalk. He exited the subway there and began a long and eerie walk from Court and Montague Streets to my Grandmother's apartment at Dorchester Road and East 21st Street, about four miles away. He walked to Scbermerhorn Street and so on to Flatbush Avenue and down, down, down the avenue to the south end of Prospect Park. He then turned off onto Ocean Avenue and so down to Dorchester Road.
Out where Mom and I were in Elmont, Mom was just about to take dinner up. It was just about twilight, not quite dark. 5:27PM and all the lights went out. We ate by the light of the stove and pretty soon all the neighbors were out and about, stopping in and out of the house. One had a transistor radio and we listened to the news by it. We got our lights on just before 12PM. The phone was out and Dad couldn't get through to us until way later. There were quite a few stories to tell in school the next day - there was no hot lunch for a few days as all the fridges melted down and the food spoiled.
wayne
I assume he was stuck in the Montague St tubes. Must be a scary walk in the dark in those tunnels, with the rats and all.
How long did it take to walk from the stuck train to Court street?
I'd be afraid to be in NYC when there was a blackout, with no lights and no way home. I guess I'd have to walk to Flushing and then get the N21 (if LI aint affected). I wonder how long of a walk it is from 42nd street to Main street? Must take all day.
I heard PATH switched to NJ power in the 1977 blackout and was able to run. Too bad LIRR and MNRR don't have alternative sources of power if ConEd fails. The MTA really should have alternative sources for power. If there was a city-wide blackout today, the chaos would be terrible as everybody tries to get out with no trains.
Wasn't this just after New York had gotten the derisive nickname, Fun City? That blackout and '77 riot doesn't sound like much fun to me. New York is a lot better now from my point of view. Things looked great to me when I was there last summer------great except for the stations on the Sea Beach line. Come on TA, let's start refurbishing them.
Fun City wasn't derisive at it was applied during the Lindsay Administration (1966-1973).
Are you sure Co-Op City and Starret City are sister complexes? Co-Op City is a Co-Op while Starret City is rentals. I think Co-Op City's sister complex is Rochdale Village in Queens on the site of the old Jamaica Racetrack. Although I might be wrong.
By the way, at the time of both blackouts my grandmother lived in the Warbasse Houses in the white building right next to the Van Siclen "F" Train station (or "D" train during the first blackout-pre Chrystie) and they had their own generators so they had electricity the whole time.
I know that Coney Island still had power, but that doesn't mean that Warbasse doesn't have their own generator. It doesn't prove anything either way.
Now that I pointed that out, does this annoy you?
...some say a thunderstorm had nothing to do with it....others say that strange aerial phenomena could have been involved...
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I've heard this. However, those of us who don't sniff glue tend to disreguard some of the wilder theories.
Yep, it sure was a summer of hell, capped off by the shutdown of the Jamaica Ave. el east of Queens Blvd. in September. Not exactly on par with the riots and killings, but to me, as a 5 year old, the most hellesh even of that year.
What made it even worse was that the Yankees won their first World Series in 15 years. It was also recorded as the hottest summer of the decade. My wife was ill with an undiagnosed malady that suddenly cleared up late in summer. Fortunately, she has ben well since. For me, it wasn't a bad summer at all. My Babe Ruth All Star Team won the 16-18 World Series in Owensboro, KY. Some New York team from Suffolk County had the audacity to try and spoil it for us, but we trashed them 9-0. When it comes to amateur baseball, there is no place like California.
A while back I asked you to help me determine when various types of subway cars went out of service and what lines they last ran on. I got great feedback from you, but there are still quite a few missing. I thought it would be the older cars that would be hard to find, but instead it is tne R's that I received no information on.
Here is the list I have received so far. Help fill in the blanks or make corrections.
Manhattan El Cars:
IRT Composites:
Hi-V Cars:..........................1958
Low-V Cars:.........................1969.......3rd Ave El (Bronx)
World's Fair Low-V Cars:........Oct 1964
BMT Q-Type El Cars:.............Oct 1969.......Myrtle
BMT C-Type El Cars:
BMT Gate El Cars ( 200, 600, 900, 1200 & 1400s):
....................................1950.......Lexington Ave(Brklyn)
BMT Gate El Cars (1300s):...........1958.......Myrtle
BMT B-Type Standards:...........Aug 1969.......Culver Shuttle, JJ/KK
BMT D-Type Triplex:.............Jul 1965.......T
BMT Multisectional Trains:..........1961
R1:
R4:
R6:
R7:.............................Mar 1977.......J
R9:
R10:............................Jun 1989.......C
R11:
R12:............................Sep 1981.......Various IRT lines
R14:............................Nov 1984.......#3, #5
R15:............................Nov 1984.......#3, #5
R16:............................May 1987.......M
R17:............................Feb 1988.......#5, TS shuttle
R21:............................Oct 1987.......#5, #3, #6
R22:............................Oct 1987.......#5, #3, #6
R26:
R27:
R28:
R29:
R30:............................Jan 1993.......C
R32:
R33:
R34:
R36:
World's Fair Lo-Vs -- 1969 or 1970, Third Avenue El
R-26, 28, 29, 32, 33/33S, 36 -- still in service
R-11/34 -- 1976
1969 for the World's Fair Lo-Vs. Ditto for Steinway Lo-Vs. Both ran on the 3rd Ave. el at the end.
The R-9s share the same final day as the R-7s: March 31, 1977 on the J. That said, the R-1/9s are generally lumped together as a family, since they could and did all intermix with one another. It's safe to say they were retired in the same sequence as they were delivered; i. e., the R-1s were phased out first, followed by the R-4s, etc.
The last of the BMT C-types were most likely withdrawn in 1956 at the latest, when the IND was extended to Lefferts Blvd. over the Dual Contracts portion of the Fulton St. el.
While I don't have a date handy, it stands to reason the R-27s were retired once the R-68s had been delivered.
Steve,
Thanks for your input. I notice that the R-27 is a small order made at the same time that the R-26 and R-28 about 1960. Dave has indicated that both the R-26 and R-28 are still in service. Could the R-27 still be in service?
>>>>the R-1s were phased out first, followed by the R-4s, etc. <<<<
This makes sense, but what I am trying to find out the final years and lines for each. I've seen in the Rolling Stock portion of the web site R-1's dated in 1969 and a fan trip dated in 1971. Would a fan trip indicate that the type is no longer in service? Or might that be the time the type is being removed from service?
There are similar pictures for R-4's and R-6's with dates in the early '70s.
The R-27s could be in service, but they're not :-)
The order wasn't that small, by the way -- 230 cars. Its companion order, The R-30/R-30A, was for 320 cars.
David
It's hard to tell with the R-1/9s because while they were essentially retired in sequence, there were exceptions. Most of the R-1s were gone by 1970. The R-4s remained in service through at least 1972 if not 1973 or even '74, while the last of the R-6s didn't leave the scene until late 1976. All of these units remained on the IND and were used mostly during rush hours in their final years on the E and CC lines. The R-7As and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division beginning in 1968 and ran until March 31, 1977.
A fantrip does not necessarily mean the equipment is no longer in service. While most fantrips are conducted with retired equipment, some have occurred using rolling stock which was still being used in revenue service.
One outstanding source of this type of information is Larry, Redbird R-33. If anyone can tell you, he could.
I'd volunteer that several R4's were renumbered to r7/9 numbers and in service on the Eastern until or nearly until the end. Can't remembr all the numbers but l458 and l593 are two. Also a group of R6 cars were on the Eastern...last 30 or 40 of the l300's.
I read here a month or two back that a store was open which sold old subway items (signs, etc.).
I thought the address was 75 E. Houston...I didn't find the store last night...
Wondering if I have the wrong address or street? Anyone who can help?
Thanks in advance.
It's not really as much a store, from the outside it more or less appears to be a junkyard. It's on the north side of Houston, near Second Ave (??). You'll see a lot of old gas station signs and the rear fuselage of a small airplae sticking up in the air.
The store is on the northwest corner of Houston and Bowery.
Thanks...I was walking on the south side of Houston. I think I know the place you're talking about now.
has USTALK & SPIRIT OF THE R-9 discussion boards been abandoned ?? I post on these boards etc ...wheres everybody ??
Maybe Fred or Salaam can shed some light on this:
I once heard that Los Angeles MTA transit officials, in their infinite wisdom, went out and purchased a huge fleet of 75-foot cars for the L.A. Red Line on the assumption that the entire line would be built. Now that construction will apparently end when the extension to the San Fernando Valley is finished, what will become of all those mothballed trains?
I have a great (albeit silly) idea about what to do with them: The New York MTA should buy them at a discount and re-equip the Staten Island Rapid Transit. (These cars only have three doors on their sides.) Then, the Staten Island R-44 fleet can be reunited with their A-train counterparts to alleviate the rolling stock shortage for B-divsion trains.
I thought the LA Red Line cars were only 60 feet long. That would've made them suitable for the Eastern Division.
But it's not really that silly of an idea. Why let perfectly good cars like that go to waste? They'd be well-suited to a line like SIRT. Maybe they could even see service on the less-traveled IND lines like the C or G.
The L.A. Red Cars are indeed 75 feet long. I have an O-gauge, cardboard "model" of one that was given out when the line first opened
Most likely Baltimore will have first pick since they are from the same mfg order
06/03/2000
[Most likely Baltimore will have first pick since they are from the same mfg order]
Why would Baltimore need additional cars? Are there plans for extending Metro? If anything, I hear ridership isn't all that.
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard that Baltimore may switch its Metro Line to Light Rail once the Metro cars wear out. But the Baltimore cars were built by Budd (known as Transit America in the mid-80s, it is Miami which uses the same cars). LA's cars were built by Breda. From what I heard only the light rail in Baltimore will see future extentions.
You mean the Italian built the lost angheles RED LINE subways cars to nowhere right ?? BREDA CARS are Italian made ???....!!
You mean the Italian built the lost angeles RED LINE subways cars to nowhere right ?? BREDA CARS are Italian made ???....!!,,
Yup, they're made in Italy, or at least by an Italian-based company. They are nice-looking cars and they seem to be showing up more and more in TV commercials and movies. How reliable are they, considering they don't have to many places to go?
........right !!!!!! ..........& no real wear & tear ( like the NYC SUBWAY )..... to really """test them""& prove they can
cut it like you said !! The RED LINE is more like a Disneyland ride on cotton balls all plush no real ""hard knocks""
the pitiful little short ass RED LINE cars which cannot be used on the BLUE & GREEN lines.......
Now how dumb can you get ?? Why werent they made CROSS-COMPATIBLE so they could operate on all THREE "3"
lines but that makes SENSE & the dammed lost Angeles MTA has none whatsoever .........!!!!!!!!!
This is why public transit in Los Angeles County is a MYTH .......!!!!!!!
A few weeks ago they showed up on the Pretender as the DC METRO subway.
They must think all subways or transit equipment is the same.
If transit is transit they could have used a Boston trolley bus at Harvard Station and called it the DC METRO Subway.
So much for detail on TV
............................right on I agree .......
Probably 9,999 out of 10,000 people don't know the difference. Just as much as we transit fans know our equipment, many of us probably wouldn't know about other subjects that many people do.
The Red Line is Not a 24/7 operation, and most studios still are in LA, so commercials are made when the subway is closed(TV SHOWS Movies etc) and they do not have to go far for location, remember as it was said most people could not tell the difference between a NYC Subway to a Moscow Train, so they do not care.
When I go to a movie with my wife I can allways tell what city it was filmed in because of the buses in the background.
More people than transit fans can tell the diff. I bet everyone that rides DC metro could tell that the trains pictured were not the ones they ride daily.
Most Movies these days are made in either Toronto or Vancouver Canada, because of great tax breaks. Even NYPD Blue is filmed mostly in LA and the exterior scens are filmed in NYC
They have duplicates of the New York exteriors (the Police Station, etc) on the 20th Century Fox lot where NYPD is filmed.
And at Warner Brothers Studio in Burbank, they have a pair of GM fishbowl buses painted up NYCTA colors. They are ex-SCRTD 1000 series T8H5307A's. One can be seen in the ending airport scenes o
"City Slickers".
They also have at least one ex-SCRTD RTS-II painted NYCTA colors too.
Of course, a couple miles away in Burbank, Warner has three R-27/30 subway cars still sitting on a backlot....
>>>More people than transit fans can tell the diff. I bet everyone that rides DC metro could tell that the trains pictured were not the ones they ride daily. <<<
Don't bet on it. A conductor friend of mine on the 3 tells of a time when a man left a breifcase on a train. When asked, what color the train was that he was on,(red or silver) did not know.
Peace,
ANDEE
the red line subway to nowhere is not compatible with the blue & green lines..........
Salaam, you have said that about 6 times this past week already.
........check out this website http//mtala.com/ & then post what you think about this .......!!!
salaamallah: Is this your idea of a joke? I checked the web site mtala.com and found only that the name was for sale.
...........Try this go to YAHOO enter ( mta ) .... in small letters & then SCROLL DOWN & then click on it ........
Thats how I found it the first time .... I thought I copied the location url correctly
I can gaurantee it is listed enter mta first under YAHOO first last time I checked mtala....
No, a contract has been signed with AAI Corporation to rebuild the Budd and Transit America cars for another 20 years of service, which is beginning now. The work will be done at AAI's Hunt Valley plant. The current operating schedule allows enough slack in the fleet to allow for the program without impacting the schedule. The rebuilding includes body repairs, new propulsion package and control package and interior fittings, including ADA fittings. There is no plan to convert the Metro to light rail. The only light rail construction on the current timetable is to double track most sections of the Timonium - Cromwell main line. A possible extension to Glen Burnie has been proposed, with no current plans to design or build.
........Mr. MOVING PLATFORM sir ; you are 100% right !!!! There are more RED LINE subway cars delivered & just
"" sitting there doing nothing "" than they will ever use on that god forsaken ""SUBWAY TO NOWHERE""........
dammed to hell !!! They use them on a rotating basis to keep them from ROTTING & RUSTING while sitting there !!
Why in the hell didnt the Los Angeles MTA ....IDIOTS .....buy all LIGHT RAIL type cars like the type that run on
the blue and green lines or make a transit car or convert them and or order them all for DUAL USAGE ??
like boston & chicago does ?? But you see thats what makes me .... ( excuse me) SO GOD - DAMMED MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry folks .........!!!!!!
why dont they put a TROLLEY POLE & or type of pickup and run it on the BLUE & GREEN lines. ??????
like I posted once and will soon...... """"""THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES""
( please excuse my capital letters this subject makes my BLOOD BOIL ) ..............!!!!!!!!!!!!
While they DID order a larger fleet than was necessary for the past few years on the LA Metro Red Line, once the "full" line out to North Hollywood opens in a couple weeks, ridership is expected to grow enough that all the cars will be used.
Even now, with the line only running from LAUS to Wilshire/Western and to Hollywood/Vine, there aren't any "mothballed" cars -- most of the cars do see ome service on a rotational basis.
Steve, when will it be opend the red line to the Valley, is the Terminal Universal City or does it go further North?
The Red Line extension to North Hollywood opens June 24. The terminal station is at Lankershim and Chandler, one stop past Universal City.
right across the street from universal city .........I will be there to take some pics...........!!!!!!
Saturday, June 24th is now the scheduled opening day.
Any body have Track Builder for Train Dispatcher 2? Well im almost done with my Track Builder of J,M,Z line & i want to know how to send my track layout to Signal Company. Just post it here
Peace Out
David Justininao
Go to http://www.signalcc.com and there's a section on their webpage wherein you can send e-mail to them. Just send your layout as an attachment.
Other than the R32s and R40 Slants, which B division cars still have railfan windows?
The R-38s have railfan windows, and the R-40M slants also. Other than those, there are none. The rest are R-46s, R-68s, and R-68As. Sometimes, you can get a good view through the cab door of the R-68 and R-68As if the train operator doesn't cover it.
and the R-40M slants
I can't believe I'm answering this thread, but....a 40M slant?
Sorry about that. I was under the impression that they were slanted until I checked a minute ago. I've never seen them, so I thought they were the same except for some minor details like the R-68 and R-68A.
the r40m slant, was a car that was originally a slant, then the front was changed to an r42, and then it was changed back to a slant :-)
Well, that would explain the delicate situation of R40M #4461.
R40Ms do NOT have slanted ends; they have straight ends like R42.
The current railfan-friendly equipment list in B Division is as follows:
R32 (A,C,E,N,R)
R38 (A,C)
R40 (Slant)(L,N,Q; B on weekends)
R40M (J,L,M,Z)
R42 (J,L,M,Z)
wayne
06/04/2000
Wayne,
I think heypaul was pulling you leg !
Bill "Newkirk"
R38, R40 mods, and R42.
Anybody fom Washington Heights who went through the blackout last year?
I did. I live in Inwood near 207 St and it was hell for me lights went out like around morning hours and it was very hot and it came back the next day like around 5:00PM I couldn't sleep during that night it was scary no lights on the street they were alot of cops on the streets and ConEd was working hard to restored the lights and in the near future all I have to say is that I hope it won't let it happen again please.
I was wondering if they still sell the Subway Cars of the BMT Book at the Transit Museum Gift Shops or at Barnes&Nobles Bookstore because I want to get a copy of that book so could somebody tell me if they are still selling that book around? thanks
There were a couple of copies available at the show today in Kendall Park. It's out of print, so you'll have to find a place that has one in stock.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The good folks at the museum shop in GCT say they're expecting to get a 'Subway Cars' book in the next few days. No mention of which it is, but 'NYC Subway Cars' was in stock, so it's not that one.
-Hank
I stopped at the GCT Museum shop today and they had 7 copies of "Subway Cars of the BMT" on the shelf.
I ended up buying "BRT Trolley Lines in Queens" by Vincent Seyfried and "Building the New Rapid Transit System of NYC Circa 1915", a reprint.
Also the author of the book, Jim Greller, was at the show, too.
-Mark
Amazon.Com still lists the book for $36.00 with a 4-6 week shipping schedule.
That's where I got mine. A wonderful book, with great pictures ....
On a recent visit to the Barnes & Noble at 6th Avenue and 22nd Street, I saw just the book you were looking for inthe "New York" section. If I recall there were maybe 1 or 2 copies on the shelf.
Try Amazon.com
It is available at tmny.safeshopper.com.
The R32's are now getting their well deserved new floors. 3494/95 were running on the E Thursday and Friday (first pair of cars on the south end facing WTC). I hope the TA suits don't get angry at me for this (security reasons LOL!!!), but they got laid up in the station at Kew Gardens Friday nite. Usually, whatever is there stays till the Monday morning rush. They look great. The black flooring with the little white/pink specs contrast quite nicely with the grey seats. I was on 3494 a few months ago. I posted on subtalk that the floor sunk greatly. My other pair of cars on my wishlist to get done soon are 3402/03. That pair went to JAM yard Tuesday before the PM rush for repair as the car on the south end had intermittant stuck brakes. Was holding 10 pounds. Those phase II's are awful. Many of them we have to go to full release intermitantly then bring it back to running release to move the train. They go to the yard, NDF (no defect found), possibly buried, then a few days later the original problem is forgotten about and a bad car is in the lead again. Let's see who's favorites get new floors when. The UTC webmaster says 3708/09, Wayne says 3612/13 and I say 3402/03.
3402/03 was not found to be NDF.
I did not express myself clearly. The NDF I was refering to was not on this particular incident of 3402/03, but other NYAB past problems since I have been pounding the road on the E for the last 13 months. It is the same cars all the time, maybe they do it once during the course of a trip, maybe not at all this particular trip. You take a brake and as you lap/manipulate you get a blow of air like the B2 has tripped put, but it actually hasn't. Put the valve into running release and you still hear air, it bleeds off in full release, come back to running release and as I said, no more problems for the rest of the trip. Sometimes it happens when you release brakes following a station stop. Go to full release, then go back to running release after you hear the air finish bleeding off. When it is checked in the controlled conditions of a yard or terminal with the train not moving, everything is OK, and now the motorman looks bad! These valves did this years ago during the testing phase when several R42's were experimentally outfited with them (4754/55, 4760/61, 4864/65 and others). I feel the TA was commited to NYAB then and now the problems really come out when it is on the fleet en-mass. They got rid of NYAB on the R68's but half the R32's have problems or potential problems. 3372/73 had NYAB problems a few weeks ago. I can't recall all numbers right now, but I've had problems with 3838 & 3839; 3459; and 3479 is making this intermittant sick grunting noise when brakes are applied. There are others.
The Electric self lapper on the NYAB brake valve has long been known to be a problem. When the R-68 was overhauled, we took the NYAB Brake valves out in favor of WABCO. Hence a sudden increase in MDBF on the R-68s. In general, therefore, you are correct. The NYAB problems are intermittant and are often found to be NDF.
Had a great time today at the transit model show in Kendall Park - thanks to Steve Olsen and friends for a job well done!
Mark Feinman was there with his videos. Other SubTalkers present, besides Anon_e_mouse Jr. and myself, were Doug a.k.a. BMTman, Heypaul, Mark W., Thurston, Patrick (a lurker), Chao-Hwa Chen, Alan (Cpaal14l), D-Train Derek (I can't remember your handle, sorry!) and one or two others whose names I have forgotten. Doug arranged for a photo to be taken of most of us that he plans to send to Dave for posting so hopefully I'll be able to put some more names with the faces then. It's nice to meet up with old friends and new ones too.
Doug found himself a real prize... I'll let him tell you all about it :-) I finally completed my collection of Electriclines and got another one of Mark's videos but didn't find the other stuff I wanted. Can't find everything every time, though.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. spent much of his time helping the Long Island Traction guys by putting trolley poles back on the wire when they would come off, which happened quite frequently at a couple of spots. Kept him occupied and gave them a chance to do the other things that needed doing. They, and the NYC group working with them, have quite a nice setup.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, seems Chris got to find a "goldmine" of Electriclines mags from one of the dealers there. Actually, I was looking for some missing issues and arrived at the show around 10:30. Turns out Chris was there SOOOO early that ALL the issues were gone (guess who bought them all ;-).
Anyhow, turns out Chris was a good sport and helped me out with some issues that I was missing. Thanks!
I lucked out by purchasing one of the last remaining pieces of an R-11 (a headlamp housing). Having ridden the cars on the Franklin Shuttle back in the 70's, it was a delight and a real privilege to bring home a piece of Brighton Line -- and Budd Company -- memorabilia. (The Redbird belt-buckle wasn't too shabby either!)
BTW, Alan and Derek (D-Train) showed up not long before we (Thurston, Patrick, Paul (heypaul) and myself) had to hit the road. We were able to sit down and have a lunch with all the guys and view some more of the layouts and vendor videos before parting ways.
It was a GREAT show! And even better company! This is something that should become a tradition among us rapid transit railfans (even twice a year would be better).
GREAT WEATHER TOO!
Doug aka BMTman
Well, plan on attending the Fall Trolley Extravaganza Sept 8 & 9, 2000, in King of Prussia, PA. It's run just like this past Saturday's show.
I don't run this show in any way, by the way. But having attended it for many years, I can say it's a good one.
I'll be there. You come on down, too!
--Mark
I am glad to meet Anon_e_mouse, Doug aka BMTman, heypaul, Thurston, and Mark Feinman. Although I met you guys for the first time, I felt we have known one another for a long time.
I bought a 1958 and a 1967 subway maps and several subway slides of '60s and '70s. But I put my focus on taking pictures on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Today's a great day to take pictures outside. I had great shot on the Delaware River Bridge, at Princeton Junction, and Edison. I even found an HHL-8 testing on the NEC.
It's been a pleasure.
Chaohwa
It was a pleasure to finally put a face with the many names that I have read articles written by them. The model show was great and it gave us the opportunity to break bread with each other. I hope to see you guys in the future at these transit related events.
D-Train
i too had a great time at the show... i don't remember anything that happened, but it was better than a day on the ward... it was fun travelling there in doug's 69 chrysler 800... it was great meeting a whole bunch of my fellow subtalkers, even though i just woke up screaming after having a nightmare about them... breaking bread gave me the feeling of common humanity that i often feel on the wards, but breaking wind together with several of the guys was even more pleasurable...it was good to see chris and his son, doug, thurston, chao hwa, mark feinman, derek d train, patrick, mark w... if i have forgotton anyone, the tranquilizer is beginning to take hold... i hope i don't have any more nightmares about being on transit transit... nobody mentioned that they were there too...
[nobody mentioned that they were there too...]
BTW, Transit Transit was there and I just had to bust Andy O'Rourke's chops about one of his cohorts NOT showing up at the show. He knows who he is...
So there, I mentioned Transit Transit.
Heypaul, I think you need stronger medication, don't you? ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
one thing we haven't mentioned... the new york city model transit system people were really amazing... they didn't have their 50 ft x 8 ft layout at the show, but they did produce two two hour videos of their system in operation... it was amazing to see one of their trains moving... they seemed to be the real thing... they used a macro-video cam that could zero into places that were too small for the human head...the interior of the cars had wicker seats, and passengers, and motormen... in one of the cars there was even a railfan video photographer with his equipment pressed against the front railfan window..
seeing all this stuff has got me thinking about bringing out my own line of full size r9 motorman cab ... to help me gauge how many units to make, please send your check for $20,000 to:
heypaul r9 occupational therapy workshop
kings county hospital
brooklyn ny.
since posting my previous message listing a proposed price of $20,000 for a heypaul r9 motorman's cab, i have been contacted by the prince of darkness, who runs a whole underground subway system of his own... he is a railfan and has offered the services of the dead to build the cabs... he has a special labor contract with the deceased which completely eliminates the cost of labor... as a result the cost to railfan for the motorman's cab has been reduced to $15,000... satan will also offer a special purchase plan---"buy now, pay nothing while you are alive, and pay it off over eternity"...
Sounds like a great deal to me (after all I'm bound to burn in Hades anyhow -- the sinner that I am).
:-)
...Are there any vidieos of this anywhere ? also are there any shows planned in october ??..
also are vidieo cameras allowed to these model subway shows etc.....
Finally are there any still shots anyone could post on these exhibits - shows etc.....
i think doug and patrick were taking pictures of some of the stuff at the show... i am not sure if anyone will post stuff here... there are two 2 hour videos available of the model layout... they are $15 each... several of us gave the guy our name and addresses, so that he could contact us when he had some copies made.. you can contact them at
new york city model transit system
post office box 12212
philadelphia, pa. 19144
i don't know if there are any model train shows planned for october..
The Cable TV show "Transit Transit" should have sizable coverage in the July segment that will feature the layouts and the clubs that built them.
I will have snap-shots ready in a couple of days (cross those fingers!).
I believe one of the SubTalk lurkers (hey Patrick -- show yourself!) was videotaping most of the show. I'll check with him via e-mail to see what turned up on the final "cut".
Doug aka BMTman
Are there any vidieos of this anywhere ? also are there any shows planned in october ??..
I actually have some I took back in 1994 at a similar show with the same folks.
I'm not aware of any transit shows in October. I do know of one in September (the 8th and 9th) in King of Prussia, PA.
also are vidieo cameras allowed to these model subway shows etc.....
Yes, but yours might be too big for some of these railfan windows :)
Finally are there any still shots anyone could post on these exhibits - shows etc.....
Pat Villani runs a web site on modeling NYC transit. Check the transfer station on this site for a link to it (I do not remember if offhand).
--Mark
Heypaul, the check is in the mail!!!
That was Joe Frank's layout. I had the opportunity to run it many years ago. The detail on his layout and subway car fleet is not to be believed. Totally amazing. Did you see his 4 R-42s with complete interiors and people on the seats? I felt like King Kong looking through the model when I picked it up.
But I saw something strange at the railfan window. It looked like a video camera and someone looking out the window talking to the train operator .... looked like ... SalaamAllah ...
Nah, couldn't be .....
--Mark
So THAT'S who was there with the TV camera .....
--Mark
To quote the poet laureate of Motown "Smokey" Robinson, "I second that emotion.
It was fun to meet up with everybody. I tried to get there by noon but was sidetracked by two things. First, while on the Staten Island Expressway, my friend Al and I, spied a 1969 Dodge Charger Daytona on a trailer being towed to a car show. The truck pulling the trailer had a distributor problem and was off to the side of the road. Since that car is the first thing I'm buying when I hit a lottery, we circled back to take photos. Then the directions from the internet said to go north instead of south on US causing a twenty mile detour.
However, the quality time in saying hello and being in the group picture was well worth the trip. I ended up purchasing a GMC-RTS slope back model mounted on a wood base with a glass case. Its really sharp looking. My friend picked up some books about the trolleys of Brooklyn, a side roller sign, and some muli-armed part with glass lenses that the trolley operated used to signal the tower, just like the lights in the front of the subways.
The exhibits were great and made this city boy's heart sing. To see that many subway and trolley models in one place made the show worthwile and distinguished it from the typical Greenburg show. Joe Saitta and his new look Flxible was there selling his pictures. Also Royal Coach was there selling all his Jimson toy bank buses. I thought that $29 for the NYC MTA version was more than excessive when the exact same item can be purchased from TMNY website for $14.95.
All in all it was a great time and worth the trip on a nice day. Perhaps next time it could held closer to the NYC area.
Again, it was great meeting Mark Fineman, Anon-e-mous (Sr and Jr, Thurston, Linsky, D-Train and the rest of motley crew.
#9306WF a/k/a Hart Bus
any pictures & or vidieos of this also are any shows planned in october ??
[I even found an HHL-8 testing on the NEC.]
I took a nearly-useless video of the HHL-8 train moving east on track 2 over the Schuylkill River at Girard Ave in Philly around 10 AM. The video was of inferior quality because I was too close: I was in a train on track 3.
The major plus of the day was that the train (Philly NRHS Reading FP7 excursion) was wyed at Zoo to return to 30th Street around 5:15 PM and went through the "New York-Pittsburgh Subway" (subject of a thread 2 or 3 weeks ago). Catenary is in place through the subway.
The FP7's entered service June 2, 1950, and were used for many years on the 'Wall Street' and 'Crusader' between Reading Terminal (Philly) and Jersey City).
Bob
I had a great time even while minding my dad's table (he had the first test test shots of the HO R62 roof/ends and an in progress side mold).
I also liked to watch the videos of the Myrtle el on the table next door, especially to see the building where I lived, the bar where I met my g/f, and the building where my cat was born.
Who got a chance to see Joe Frank's model 3rd Ave. video?? That was kewl!!
My B&QT PCC #1009 got a work out too, but was taken out of service due to a bent pole...
Great Show!!
I'll add my two cents to the other fine posts. You guys didn't leave much for me to say, but I too had a great time ... the show and the company !
I particularly liked the trolley & RT layouts ... had never seen a subway layout with the trains powered by THIRD RAIL ... WOW! Also realy liked the "Newark City Subway" PCC decked out in the current colors A-N-D with a trolley pole and a Pantograph ... dbl WOW!
I too made a few purchases, one being a TA "Operator" badge that I intend to attach to my trolley hat ... now there won't anyone who won't understand what this operator realy likes ;-)
Also did a walk around of Joe Saitta's GMC Fishbowl decked out in pre-LI Bus colors in the parking lot, was the final treat of the day.
In conclusion it was well worth the long haul there as a passenger in Doug's Chrysler 300 ... even the AC still works in his oldie but goodie !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, you should have looked a little closer at Joe Saitta's bus.
Its a FLXIBLE new look, not GMC. Check the pictures of Bus Fest 1999 on this website....Hope to see you up in Connecticut this summer, with my friend Al.
#9306 WF
Sorry about that ... the problem is that I only WORK for a bus company, but am a subway buff ... at least I knew it was a bus ;^)
Re this summer, let me know in advance & maybe i'll be able to take you for a ride ... Ding Ding
Mr t
Hey all ....
It was great meeting up with all of you who attended (Anon-e-mouse summed it up pretty good for all of us). Thanks to all of you for coming by and saying hello. I think I counted 11 or 12 of us altogether from SubTalk who attended.
I ended up picking up a gem myself at the show. I got a copy of Cunningham & DeHart's "The History of the NYC Subway System, Part II" covering the BMT. I've been looking for a copy of any part of this three-part series for years; finally I got one. Now it's only two to go ....
Steve Olsen did a great job with arrangements for the dealers and I expect to make this a yearly tradition for as long as he runs the show. The "waitress service" he made available for dealers was a great idea, considering that I was at the table alone and couldn't leave for extended periods of time.
Thanks again.
--Mark
I'm on the Liberty Lines bus to Riverdale, and on the bridge that brings E138st over the Major Degan, there are exposed trolley tracks. I thought the Deegan was built well after the end of trolley service in the Bronx.
-Hank
The part between the Grand Concourse and the Triborough Bridge was opened in 1936.
The "northern" part of the Deegan was built about 1953. There were still trolley tracks in The Bronx in 1963 - 64.
Not trolley SERVICE. Why would anybody bother keeping tracks when building a highway when there were no trolleys to run on them?
It took almost 20 years to repave all the local streets that had trolley tracks.
Usually the rails were covered with black top overlays, and much of the rail is still there.
In places like NY where the city was trying to get rid of streetcars there was no hurry to pull up the rail.
In Milwaukee, where the electric company was trying to get out of the street railway business, when they closed a line they pulled up the rail quickly so they could not be forced to resume service.
A lot of street rail was salvaged during WWII to recycle the steel. Lines that were abandoned prior to that likely have no rail under the pavement.
Yes, but I'm talking about rails on an overpass over a highway. I was under the impression that Bronx trolley service ended well before the highway that this overpass crosses was built.
-Hank
That part of the highway was built in 1936, before the trolleys were abandoned.
What was there before the highway? Could the bridge be older than the highway?
Here is a link to an excellent history of the Deegan Expwy. in The Bronx...
HISTORY OF DEEGAN
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Nothing was there before, at least not below grade. The bridge is not older than the highway.
In 1989, Westchester Av was unpaved tempoarily during reconstruction of the street, exposing trolley tracks which belonged to the Bx4's bus's predesessor.
-Stef
When McDonald Ave in Broolyn was rebuilt in the 1980s, the trolley tracks were left intact and it wasn't until the early 1990s that they were simply covered over with blacktop.
--Mark
Crosstown trolley service on 135-138St ended in 1947.
A copy of this book by Frederick Kramer is for sale at alibris.com for $ 625.00. Does anyone know what makes this book so valuable?
it sounds like a rip-off... i have a paperback copy of the book that i paid $13 for... if anyone desires it, i will be happy to sell it for $300, over 50% off the current asking price...
I agree with heypaul; $625.00 for that book is an absolute ripoff. Ripoff ain't the word; highway robbery is more like it.
There's a sucker born every minute...
I agree. I think I bought my copy at the Transit Museum 2 years ago. Even if it is out of print, it can't be that valuable.
Not a thing. There were at least two copies, one for $10 and the other for $15, at the show yesterday. Just for grins I checked about fifteen other books that I have purchased in the last three months - not all railroad-related - and their prices are considerably higher than what I paid for any of them, either from dealers listed at Advanced Book Exchange or Bibliofind. Alibris is a service just like Advanced Book Exchange (my favorite) and Bibliofind (much overlap with ABE but it does have some unique listings) but it looks like they mostly cater to the high-end dealers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I photocopied that book since I used it for refernece when doing my paper for US Urban history, on the subway in New York. I copied the pages @ the Public Library on 42nd Street since I was tired of just sitting there, and read it at home. Very interesting, especially the sections about the 8th & 6th avenue lines. But $600+ is way too much IMHO.
There was a statement in the book about the photos; specifically, they were going to be thrown away or something to that effect and were salvaged. Maybe the seller took it to mean these photos were rare and thus the book to him was worth that much more. I feel sorry for anyone who ends up shelling out that much dough for that book.
Hi
Does anyone have a good UP TO DATE drawing of the 63 st Tunnel showing the LIRR and IND Tracks.
I need this info for the East Side Study of the LIRR into Grand Central via 63st
.I have the DEIS and the Alignment Drawings,however the IND Portion of the Drawings is missing--I only have the LIRR and the IND in 2 seperate drawings,not next to each other or in the upper and lower level style.
Thanks
Steve Lowenthal
I don't know if anybody showed up for it or not (I was out), but it seems that people DO want to chat and either they aren't informed of it or the time is incovenient.
There needs to be a bigger information drive, either that, or interest has just waned and it isn't coming back.
SubTalkLive information page
Subscribe to the SubTalk Live
Announcement List
never miss another chat!Powered by www.egroups.com
Why the eye motif in the IND WTC-Chambers Street corridor? Any particular reason?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is big brother watching the E line motormen to change ends quickly and leave on time! Those eyes are hooked up to 370 Jay St.
They probably had the art contest to do something grand for that station, and the eyes were chosen.
It was on Transit Transit last month. They eyes are supposed to be modeled after photographs of "average new yorkers" faces. The artist modeled each set of them by looking at pictures. The transfer between Park Place and WTC has a great huge mosaic on the floor in a fenced off area. It has a large eye superimposed over a map of New York City. It took something like 500,000 little pieces of tile to do this large mosaic. They had to do it all by hand.
-Harry
It's a map of Earth, not New York City.
The Earth... New York City... They are both the same to a New Yorker.
It is part of a large artwork called "OCULUS" (eye). The Main Eye is on the floor near Park Place transfer stairs; there are +/- 330 eyes on various walls, pillars, stairwells etc throughout the Chambers-H&M/Chambers-WTC station complex.
Click here for examples of "Oculus".
wayne
And when your not looking they move and follow you around!
Put some of those eyes on the closed canal st. station. Nothing better then someone keeping a eye on you while your down there.
Although I haven't had a chance to survey all of the Oculus plaques, it wouldn't surprise me any if they had tiny cameras intalled in them at key locations throughout the station complex. NB: This is only my opinion, not a statement of fact or allegation thereof.
wayne
The May issue of Transit Transit happens to have a piece on this, not sure if you can still catch it this week.
Mr t__:^)
R142 Test Line 2 Weekdays
Southbound
706A
1020A
140PM
458PM
814 PM
from Flatbush Av
841AM
1202 PM
0322 PM
637PM
958 PM
R142A Line 6 Weekdays
Southbound from Pelham Bay
6AM,,808AM,,1024AM,,1236PM,,252PM,,458PM,,712PM
Northbound from Brooklyn Bridge
705 AM,913AM , 1126 Am, 142 PM ,356 PM,602PM,819 PM
R142 Line 2 Saturdays
Southbound from 241 st
703 AM, 1025 AM, 144 PM , 504 PM, 627 PM
Northbound from Flatbush Av
848AM, 1208 Pm, 328 PM ,648 PM , 1011 PM,
R142A Line 6 Saturdays
Southbound leaving Pelham
703 Am, 915 Am, 1127 Am, 137 PM,347 PM,557 PM,807 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
811 AM, 1025 AM, 1234 Am, 244 PM, 454 PM, 704 PM ,915PM
R142 Line 2 Sundays
leaving 241 Southbound
651 AM, 1027 Am, 152 PM , 526 Pm, 850 PM
Leaving Flatbush Av Northbound
846 AM, 1211 PM, 341 PM, 712 PM, 1036 PM
R142A Line 6 Sundays
Leaving Pelham Bay Southbound
656 Am ,911 Am,1127 Am ,138 PM,354 PM,616 PM,830 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
803AM, 1021 AM,1236 PM,248 PM,504 PM,723 PM,936 PM
When does this start??? I can catch it on the weekends....
3TM
No Start Date announced,Keep Watching,,30 Day Test
Last I heard was June 15 but subject to change.
YES, I will be running that train 2 days during the week and once on Saturday.
The R 142 falls on 2 of my weekday runs which are the 8:08AM And the 12:36PM out of Pelham Bay. Out of Brooklyn Bridge is the 9:13AM and 1:42PM.
On Saturday I will be running the train for the 3:47PM out of Pelham and the 4:54PM Out of Brooklyn Bridge.
Dave are these non-revenue test runs or test runs with passengers?
I'm riding June 17th and would love to get a ride on it.
How about some times for key stations, like
#2: Penn Station or Times Square, Borough Hall
#6: Grand Central, 125th street
Wayne
Me and Trevor and were discussing this yesterday. All I know is that on the 6 line he says the first one pulls out June 15 at 6am on the Pelham Terminal on the 6 line. I won't be able to be there because of a Regents(ARGHHHHH) but I will be on that afternoon. I hear it is supposed to run all day.
My regents on that day starts at 12:00, so I will be skipping the optional review class beforehand to ride the first run. Now, to explain to mom why I'm leaving at 4:30am...
If all goes well they should be in Revenue service but I'm not sure about what time they will arrive at the major station stops.
I'll check into it and post.
I am also figuring this out. Name the trip on the 2 on weekdays and Saturdays and I can give you the times at timepoints on the schedule.
How about Times Sq?
Times Square is one of the stations. I might finish this thing tonight or before I go to New York on Monday and will upload it at that time. Stations I will have times for are 241st, East 180th, 149th, 135th, 96th, 42nd, 14th, Chambers, Nevins, Franklin, and Flatbush on the 2, and Pelham Bay Park, East 177th, Hunts Point Avenue, 138th, 125th, 68th, 42nd, Astor, Bleeker, and Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. When I finish, I will post on the board. It will also be uploaded on to my web page for download.
DISCLAIMER: TIMES CAN BE OFF BY A FEW MINUTES. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO GO TO THE STATION AT LEAST 5-10 MINUTES BEFORE THE TIME I GIVE SO THAT YOU ARRIVE BEFORE THE TRAIN DOES AND NOT AFTER. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT COMES AROUND AGAIN.
Question to Pelham Bay Dave:
I'm from Sydney, recently spent 10 days in NY and rode a lot of the subway, and like to keep an eye on schedules and subtalk. A question, if I may:
You say you may be driving the new R 142 train on weekdays, ex Pelham at 8.08 and 12.36. Running time to City Hall is about 55-57 mins, so arrival there would I assume be about 9.05 and 1.35 approx. You then say you will return at 9.13 and 1.42. This tends to indicate that you will step back one or two trains either at City Hall arrival, or departure track. I rode around the loop last year in the PM rush, and it was very quick - hardly time for a change of crew.
I would be interested in details of your working, assuming my timings are correct and published time-tables have these running times.
Thanks. Ian
Well there is no crew change at Brooklyn Bridge and the running time is 58 Minutes to 59 Minutes from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. On the 8:08 it arrives at Brooklyn Bridge at 9:07 and leaves at 9:13. There is a train on the uptown side and in the loop. So by the time I discharge the train and take it around its time to go. During Rush Hours theres a 6 Minutes layover with a train leaving every 3 Minutes. On the 12:36 it get to Brooklyn Bridge at 1:33 a train. the train ahead is a No.6 to Parkchester that leaves at 1:37. So my train would be in the loop. The headway is then 5 Minutes with a 9 Minute layover
Also NO PASSENGERS are allowed to ride in the City Hall Loop as ordered by the New York City Police Department However sometimes there is no enough time to get people off the train. I hope you did enjoy the view.
Pelham Bay Dave,
Thanks for your note and yes, the view was fine if a bit 'in the dark!' It was an experience, however. We got around in about 90 secs, and set off north in another 30, so things must have been just a bit behind.
New York is one great system, anyhow. I enjoyed it immensely.
The train you where on must of been late. Ofcause thats normal for PM Rush Hours on the No.6 Line.
Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood. The R142's were supposed to be tested for 30 days @ 24 hrs per day. The schedule seems to leaave very large gaps at night.
The rest of the time is for analysis of data collected while the cars are in service.
David
So there will be a few computers n'stuff still in the cars, or just in the cabs or attached to the trucks? Maybe they will close one car and keep everything in there?
What's the latest word on whether the R142/R142A test trains will begin passenger service tomorrow, June 15th?
If you have access to a "Public Access" TV station there's some infor in this month's Transit Transit. There also have been a number of threads here, so if you don't get a specific reply you might search for some of these recent discussions (personally I haven't been keeping up with them).
Mr t__:^)
06/04/2000
I was wondering when the #7 Flushing line instituted using 11 cars. I believe it was for the 1964-65 World's Fair. Am I right?
Bill "Newkirk"
They started running 11 car trains on the Flushing line in late-63 or early-64, once all of the R-33 and R-36 World's Fair cars (aka Bluebirds) had been delivered and were available for service.
-- Ed Sachs
All stations had to be extended for the 11 car trains.
Normaly the single is the third car from the Flushing end.
Bill "Newkirk":
You should also keep in mind that one of the cars on every 11 car #7 train is a single car.
BMTJeff
Bill: Flushing Line trains were lengthened to 10 cars on November 1,1962 and to 11 cars on April 20,1964. At this time there was an insufficient number of Bluebirds,both R-33 and R-36 to protect the service so a number of mainline Redbirds,R-33's and single unit R-17's were sent over to the Flushing Line to pitch-hit for the missing Bluebirds.
Larry,RedbirdR-33
Weren't the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s retained on the 7 until the R-36s arrived in sufficient numbers? There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles, circa 1963, of 11-car trains of R-12/14s over there, plus a photo of another 11-car train of mostly R-15s with an R-17 or two thrown in.
BTW, welcome back!
Steve: The Bluebirds were placed in service on the Flushing Line starting September 26,1963 and R-12,14 and 15 began being transfered back to the mainline. R-17s 6500-6549 which had been transfered to Flushing in November 1962 began returning a little bit later, November 4,1963. The last R-12,14 and 15 left Flushing on April 17,1964 while the first Redbirds arrived on March 15,1964 and stayed until after July 23,1964. The last R-17s left for the mainland in January of 1965. Apparently the TA did not wish to mix the older R's with the Bluebirds whereas a cleaned up maroon R-17 could mix with the Redbirds although I did see maroon R-17s as the 11th car on Bluebird trains at times.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
BX55 said:
>>>I for one am a fan of graffiti as an artform. I use graffiti and photographs of graffiti murals in my own art.
Yes, there IS a difference between artistic graffiti and the random scrawls across apartment walls with
expletives. I think graffti is something you can't truly understand unless you are from the ghetto or have
some understanding on what it is like to be an urban youth. <<<
So, let's have a hopefully calm discussion about graffiti.
I agree with BX55 that the best graffiti, as in the stuff you see on wall murals, is pretty damn good. Yet, I championed the no-graffiti olicy instituted by the MTA back in the late 1980s, mainly because I despised having a 'decor' imposed on me by the graffitists, most of whom are not working for any art esthetic but instead are concerned with flaunting the MTA's efforts to get rid of it. (In my humble opinion) graffiti is of a piece with the guys who turn their beatboxes all the way up (see Spike Lee's "Do The Right Thing" if you want to see a document of the importance the beatbox guys attach to volume), or drive boom cars, or even gun their engines at stoplights or when they're pulling away from the curb. Dominate your space, and attain self-worth. Get rid of graffiti, you'll have scratchiti. Eliminate scratchiti and something else will crop up.
I was an urban youth once, and hated riding in tagged cars, and I seriously doubt whether I would have gotten involved in graffiti if I had been from the ghetto. I've always been an independent thinker...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Demolition, brother.
The problem here is that all "grafitti" is illegal. Once it becomes legal, like obtaining permission for those "murals" (which I actually like), it ceases to become grafitti and becomes art. All grafitti is illegal. There is no such thing as a "grafitti artist". Your either an artist, or a grafitti vandal. Just trying to make the distinction here.
Perhaps in the dictionary you're writing, but not in Webster's.
Main Entry: graf·fi·to
Pronunciation: gr&-'fE-(")tO, gra-, grä-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural graf·fi·ti /-(")tE/
Etymology: Italian, incised inscription, from graffiare to scratch, probably from grafio stylus, from Latin graphium
Date: 1851
: an inscription or drawing made on some public surface (as a rock or wall); also : a message or slogan written as or as if as a graffito
- graf·fi·tist /-'fE-tist/ noun
usage The plural graffiti is sometimes used with a singular verb as a mass noun but this use is not yet as well established as the mass-noun use of data. Use of graffiti as a singular count noun is still quite rare and is not standard.
Grafitti, as we are discussing it, refers to a crime. Webster's dictionary defines it as a drawing made on a public surface, and the last time I checked, that was illegal. Thanks for backing my argument up ...
Bull. The government can always ALLOW an artist to draw on a public surface.
There are museums owned by the public, does that mean that the art there is illegal? It's drawing on public surfaces?
Believe it or not, one of my friends has revealed to me that scratchitti is actually loosing popularity! Tagging by scratching is becoming 'whack', and now they are starting to return to marker and spraypaint. A few intrepid taggers burn the tags into the armrest areas of R-44s and R-46s. On the Queens Blvd. line around Forest Hills and Rego Park, look for tags by Meser, and you'll see what I mean. Not just in the subway, either.
It was announced on Israel Radio this morning, June 4, that effective today Israel Railways has increased its daily number of passenger trains from 164 to 203 (>20% increase)! Also, service from Tel Aviv (Israel's largest metro area) to Be'er Sheva' (Israel's fourth largest city and "capital of the Negev") is now fully operational. Also today, beginning of operation from Tel Aviv to the inland town of Rosh Ha'Ayin.
How about the wonderful route from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Is that in service again?
They run 2 trains daily in each direction, one each way in the morning and one each way in the evening, theyt are waiting for 4 more train sets by the end of the year to add more trains. The problem with Israel Rail is that the train stations are mostly out of the way of the downtown area. Tel Aviv central is next to the Diamond Mart in Ramat Gan, Haifa has 2 stations, bot a distance from the central station. and so is Jeruslam Station. But the rides were great.
Today's post is carrying a story on how the new budget won't do much to alliviate overcrowding conditions on most lines.
http://www.nypost.com/news/30595.htm
-Hank
Notice the lines that are at capacity and cannot add trains, according to that article?
"According to TA documents, rush-hour service is maxed out on the 2, 3, 4, 5, B, D, E, F and Q lines - nearly half the system."
The Lexington Avenue Line, the Queens Boulevard Line, and the Manhattan Bridge. Has any one seem any work on the Manny B? I haven't seen much activity since that worker fell off.
The E and F trains at one time could have gone to 11 cars if the Stations weren't shortened. I have no doubt that Traindudes staff could have modified some a/b to allow for singles to be added or some triplets to be created
avid
" When you're running at capacity there isn't much you can do to relieve overcrowding other than to make sure the trains that you have are incredibly reliable," said TA spokesman Al O'Leary.
"Until you build another railroad, there are physical constraints to what you can do," he said.
According to TA documents, rush-hour service is maxed out on the 2, 3, 4, 5, B, D, E, F and Q lines - nearly half the system. "
Damn liars.
On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.
[On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.]
Yeah. That's why it burns me up that the Post took the TA at its word (I wrote them a letter, but they didn't publish it).
[On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.]
Yeah. That's why it burns me up that the Post took the TA at its word--I wrote them a letter to that effect, but they didn't publish it.
I was looking at the Paris section of this site and I'm fascinated by Line 14 of the Metro. I like the way the Paris train cars are connected to form a single "tube" to see all the way down the whole train. The only experinece I have had with ZPTO is with the shuttle at Hartsfield Airport. To me, ZPTO is an extremely efficent means of transportation. With it, you can run trains very frequently throughout the whole day and have no human invovlment. This means lower operating costs, faster turning around of trains, and perhaps running trains closer together. Also ZPTO allows for a huge railfan window up front. The computer systems used appear to be reliable, since out of all my years of traveling in and out of Hartsfield, only once did the computers fail when I was on a train. Everyone had to walk to the concourses instead.
Here are some questions I have. In Paris, when line 14 gets croweded, are there any types of sensors to hold the doors open longer? Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone? On London's new Jubilee line, they also have platform edge doors, could they be planning ahead for making their subway ZPTO one day? I know NYC won't have ZPTO anytime soon, or even OPTO, but what about other US cities, do you think that one day ZPTO will be a reality some day? What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?
.......how are you doing these days rob from atlanta ???........my comment is that those MARTA trains could be operated
by that same ZPTO as you put on your last post ......
I do feel however it is just as dangerous as the OPTO operation you have there now ( Lost Angeles too ).............
Thats what I think all transit systems want a few employes to pay as possible & to hell with passenger safety ..!!
They would if they could even fire all motormen - motorwomen clean house sweep ZPTO rules .....!!!!!
I'm doing well, I haven't had really anything to post about lately, but I'm still here almost everyday. Anyway, the TO still has to operate the doors on MARTA trains, so it really can't be ZPTO. As for safety, there could be police on patrol in the trains, they do that already here in the ATL.
.........once again it is good to hear from you and HOT & HUMID -..........Atlanta....!!!!!
I know that ZPTO should not ever happen !!! ( but) OPTO should dissapear as well... nice hearing from you again !!!!
Also..... lets get rid of those insane card machines on MATRA buses........enjoy some Chick Fil A for me ......!!!!!!
Not that type of safety, but people getting trapped in the doors or getting left on the platform. A real, LIVE conductor can reopen the doors in these situations.
I asked the question if Paris had sensors of some sort that would prevent people from getting chopped in half. At Hartsfield, the trains are always packed, hardly anyone ever gets caught in the door. If they do, the doors usually reopen halfway for a brief second. Also, the automated voice gives plenty of warning that the "doors are closing and will not reopen, please wait for the next train."
I don't recall if the Meteor-Line 14 had door sensors. Apparently the line is not so busy yet to be seriously crowded and the trains run on very frequent headways, despite the lack of a crowd, all day long. Every 90 seconds or so. It was fun to watch them reverse direction at the end of the line completely unattended.
I was at the Tampa airport this weekend and they have a number of short ZPTO people movers which I took some pictures of. Mostly their are airside-landside shuttles that just go back and forth on the same track, but the parking deck has a 5 or 6 car system that services 6 stops in the parking areas. It was almost like a horizontal elevator with mutiple elevator cars in a loop. Pretty neat actually. Pictures soon.
The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the tunnel, obstacle on the track and so forth. TOs can spot these things and slow or stop a train very quickly.
Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it and keeps on going.
Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.
-Daniel
First of all the TO is only usefull if he is in the same care as the passenger. On r-68's 6 out of the 8 cars are might as well be ZPTO. As for tourists, A platform Kiosk will be just as useful. You may also have a phone on these Kiosks. NYC should be moving to Full OPTO. Images from platform cameras Could be displayed on a heads up display in the TO boothe. Each car or doorway would be equipted with it's own camera. Doorways with an obstruction will remain in the TO display so that he may open and close the door. This system would be safer than the current sysytem and provide for an easier job for the TO. This could be Phased in over time with the addition of new railcars. This would allow safe operation and efficent operation.
Same as Philly's Market-Frankford line.
NO! Full OPTO is horrible. We have it in Chicago, and rides that used to take 30 minutes now take 40 or more. IT'S HORRIBLE!
I am familar with Chicargo having gone to college there (great town). The OPTO System is not implimented well. The new cars in NYC have computerized door controls that only reopen the door being held. The system I am preposing would not cause any delays. The TO will see everything the current conductor sees only better. Properly deployed technology Improves our lives. Improperly deployed technoligy is expensive and useless. If deployed properly OPTO can be a very efficent, safe operation.
Thank you very much for your support! Where have all
the other railfans been?
......I have always supported you there in Chicago I still would like to shoot a vidieo there ....
did you like the vidieos I sent you ??
I received all the videos. They are fantastic.
[The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the
tunnel, obstacle on the track and so forth.]
It's not like there is one set program for the trains and that's it. If track work has to be done, someone in the computer control room can reroute trains or whatever. Also, I guess the reason for platform doors is that it will prevent crap (trash, humans) from ending up on the track. Maybe an override control panel could be (or is) installed on ZPTO trains so security officers could stop a train for emergencies.
[Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it
and keeps on going.]
An automatic operating system always has a control centre. The train doesn't know but passenger does. Ther are communication facilities and emergency brake on the train, passengers can use it.
[Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.]
Imformation in the station is important even OPTO because TO will concentare on operating train. So as ZPTO it is even important.
[The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the tunnel,
obstacle on the track and so forth. TOs can spot these things and slow or stop a train very quickly.]
IR scanner should be installed in front of the train, so that if there is any obstacle on the track in a distance, it will stop. Also, platform edge doors must be installed because for the safety reason.
[Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it and keeps on going.]
An automatic operating system always has a control centre. The train doesn't know but passenger does. Ther are communication facilities and emergency brakes on the train, passengers can use them.
[Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.]
Imformation in the station is important even OPTO because TO will concentare on operating train. So as ZPTO it is even important.
ZPTO would also put thousands of people out of work, endanger the lives of passangers, and the prohibative cost of retrofitting the entire NYC subway system with the equipment to do this would ensure the fiscal demise of the entire system.
Bad idea, bad, bad idea. And I'm no fan of the TWU here ....
I guess you missed the part where I said ZPTO or even OPTO wouldn't happen in NYC anytime soon :-)
It would be phased in over a long period of time.
The costs would be more than amortized by the savings in labor.
What about all of those conductors in every car like on the Q cars?
Technology has always made previously important jobs obsolete. Then why is it with the much higher population today than in 1900, the unemployment rate hasn't changed much?
[It would be phased in over a long period of time.
The costs would be more than amortized by the savings in labor.
What about all of those conductors in every car like on the Q cars?
Technology has always made previously important jobs obsolete. Then why is it with the much higher population today than in 1900, the unemployment rate hasn't changed much?]
That's a nice way of putting it.
In a healthy economy, you *don't* help people by creating unnecessary jobs--you pay people to do useless work when there are lots of useful things they could be doing. The City desperately needs a Second Avenue subway and more subway and bus service. Seems to me it would make more sense to hire people to do things like that!
Josh Hill:
There was once a ZPTO on the 42nd St. shuttle from the period of December 1961 to March 1964 when the SAM as the Automated shuttle train was called when it was set on fire.
BMTJeff
It was never ZPTO, the union managed to force the TA to have a TO sit there, IN THE PASSENGER CABIN! How useless.
Pigs of Royal Island:
At least in practice the SAM was a ZPTO. I never knew that there was a TO in the passenger cabin and you're right that a TO in the passenger is useless although more useful than the TA management.
BMTJeff
[Josh Hill:
There was once a ZPTO on the 42nd St. shuttle from the period of December 1961 to March 1964 when the SAM as the Automated shuttle train was called when it was set on fire.
BMTJeff]
I've noticed.
[ZPTO would also put thousands of people out of work, endanger the lives of passangers, and the prohibative cost of retrofitting the entire NYC subway system with the equipment to do this would ensure the fiscal demise of the entire system.
Bad idea, bad, bad idea. And I'm no fan of the TWU here .... ]
ZPTO would save lives--the lives of people who fall/are pushed/wander onto the tracks--and the cost of retrofitting the system would easily be paid for by labor savings. That, after all, is why we automate things. But you're right about putting people out of work; heaven forbid we should stop paying people to do unnecessary jobs, and spend the money instead on people doing useful jobs that would benefit the people of the City . . .
[I was looking at the Paris section of this site and I'm fascinated by Line 14 of the Metro. I like the way the Paris train cars are connected to form a single "tube" to see all the way down the whole train. The only experinece I have had with ZPTO is with the shuttle at Hartsfield Airport. To me, ZPTO is an extremely efficent means of transportation. With it, you can run trains very frequently throughout the whole day and have no human invovlment. This means lower operating costs, faster turning around of trains, and perhaps running trains closer together. Also ZPTO allows for a huge railfan window up front. The computer systems used appear to be reliable, since out of all my years of traveling in and out of Hartsfield, only once did the computers fail when I was on a train. Everyone had to walk to the concourses instead.
Here are some questions I have. In Paris, when line 14 gets croweded, are there any types of sensors to hold the doors open longer? Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone? On London's new Jubilee line, they also have platform edge doors, could they be planning ahead for making their subway ZPTO one day? I know NYC won't have ZPTO anytime soon, or even OPTO, but what about other US cities, do you think that one day ZPTO will be a reality some day? What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?]
LOL, if the MTA operated the City's elevators each one would be staffed with one guy to operate the doors and another to operate the handle, and they'd be spending $140,000,000 on a pilot project to equip some elevators with buttons, to be operated by the same two operators. After all, there might be a kid in the shaft, or a passenger could get sick.
ZPTO is truly a no-brainer. It's the sort of capital expenditure a business makes--one that pays for itself, interest and all. It would significantly increase safety--platform doors would prevent people from falling in front of trains and human error would be virtually eliminated. It would reduce headways and provide a more comfortable ride. And you could operate near peak level service 24 hours a day at very low cost, reducing travel time significantly and increasing ridership. But the MTA won't even go to OPTO, which would require nothing more than the installation of a few monitors . . .
Well, I guess MTA would say (if they were off the record so they would not provoke the TWU) that they are moving in a slow, incremental fashion. CBTC is s l o w l y being implemented, in theory. Considering the meltdown on MUNI in SF, I think their caution is well placed - but perhaps excessive.
ZPTO would certainly require a LOT of capital expenditure. Even without NY's inflated capital costs, I am guessing Billions. Not to sneeze at.
What is the state of OPTO today? I thought it was the legislature that killed that, though, not MTA.
BTW - imagine not being able to lean over the tracks to see whether a train was coming and watch it come in :(
"BTW - imagine not being able to lean over the tracks to see whether a train was coming and watch it come in :("
Which is a dangerous, foolish thing to do. Better to have London style electronic signs and announcements that tell you where the next train is and when it will arrive, along with the whereabouts of the train behind it.
The legislature killed OPTO? That's a new one on me!
I suppose you could say the MTA is moving incremementally, meaning that by the time we see it we'll be dead . . . they're putting CBTC on the L and then the Lex.
Incremental to the TA means geological to anyone else; their schedule for CBTC is laughable. But the economics of ZPTO are excellent. If they were a business, they'd borrow and spend the money they needed if and when the economics justified it; instead, they're spending tons on CBTC *without* ZPTO, which is a bit like buying a fancy new fleet of buses but no gas. Same thing with the Metrocard machines; they're spending a fortune to automate fare collection, but they plan to keep the token agents. It's fairly senseless.
Chicago agents no longer handle money or sell tickets but they're on the station as customer assistants. Does that make any sense? They also have OPTO now. Thjere's a ZPTO on one Paris Metro line, likewise the Dockland's light railway (elevated) in London. Managements public and private both reducing the number of decent paying jobs all the time....are we going to become a society of professionals, execs, and the rest will have nothing but low paying jobs? Looks that way. And it isn't only the rails... almost all consumer goods are imported from low-wage countries.
Are all of the Chicago agents as attractive as Sandra Bullock in that movie "While You Were Sleeping"?
If they're young enough.. sure. I met a black lady agent at Quincy and Wells once who made me wish (on sight anyway) that I'd be in town longer. Sweet gal too; if nothing else Chi folks have a nice attitude as a rule.
Ed;
You are seeing the reversal of the trend started by Henry Ford when he raised workers' pay to make a market for the Model T. There has ben a growing gap between workers' pay and professional, highly skilled technical and management pay.
The new capitalist theory is it is alright to let the unskilled jobs go to third world countries, and we in the US will have only highly skilled jobs. The flaw with that theory is the poor educational sytem and some of the social conditions in this country leave us with a pool of unskilled or semi-skilled workers. Unless jobs with a living wage are found for these people, there must be a transfer system (a dole) to get money to them or we will again see civil unrest.
[You are seeing the reversal of the trend started by Henry Ford when he raised workers' pay to make a market for the Model T. There has ben a growing gap between workers' pay and professional, highly skilled technical and management pay.
The new capitalist theory is it is alright to let the unskilled jobs go to third world countries, and we in the US will have only highly skilled jobs. The flaw with that theory is the poor educational sytem and some of the social conditions in this country leave us with a pool of unskilled or semi-skilled workers. Unless jobs with a living wage are found for these people, there must be a transfer system (a dole) to get money to them or we will again see civil unrest.]
I think the possible repercussions are way worse than that. So far, the growth of the economy has been sufficient to keep demand high. But if workers' wages are driven down too far, demand will fall off, and that will lead to worldwide depression.
It seems to me we should have a dual tarriff program, involing elimination of tariffs between industrialized countries, and sliding tariffs on goods and services from third world countries. But it ain't gonna happen unless we have some kind of economic disaster (and then they'll probably do the wrong thing anyway).
[Chicago agents no longer handle money or sell tickets but they're on the station as customer assistants. Does that make any sense? They also have OPTO now. Thjere's a ZPTO on one Paris Metro line, likewise the Dockland's light railway (elevated) in London. Managements public and private both reducing the number of decent paying jobs all the time....are we going to become a society of professionals, execs, and the rest will have nothing but low paying jobs? Looks that way. And it isn't only the rails... almost all consumer goods are imported from low-wage countries.]
I think there are two issues here--automation, which increases productivity, and the internationalization of the economy, which throws a lot of unskilled labor into the overall job pool and drives down wages for low level workers relative to skilled ones. Both of course have some effects in common but I don't think they're identical. In the case of the subways, though, I don't think any of these arguments apply. There are plenty of unskilled/semi-skilled jobs that need doing on the subway. Let me flip the argument: would you rather have a token clerk standing around doing nothing, or have someone fixing a drip or digging a new subway line? That's the tradeoff here as far as I'm concerned.
I would have to agree. If less people work for the transit agencies, then our taxes will be paying for less, and Robert Cote would have less to complain about. Also, if transit systems ran at an operating profit, or had a better fare/recovery ratio, then people may be more willing to give it capital financing.
[I would have to agree. If less people work for the transit agencies, then our taxes will be paying for less, and Robert Cote would have less to complain about. Also, if transit systems ran at an operating profit, or had a better fare/recovery ratio, then people may be more willing to give it capital financing.]
LOL, why do I get the feeling that Robert would complain even if national transit subsidies amounted to 23 cents? But you're right. The thing is, some transit systems could run at a profit if they were privatized and received a subsidy equal to what roads get (35% from general revenues in New York, apparently). But with the government running things they never will. It's politically easier just to buy peace with the unions and never build anything instead. To me the really sad thing is that if we had reasonable work rules and the freedom to hire people on the basis of need, workers wouldn't take home any less. The same guy who runs a token booth wouldn't necessarily lay the floor tiles for a new station, but somebody would. Everybody would benefit--the riders, because there'd be more money for capital investment, higher service, and/or lower fares, and the workers, because there would be more jobs!
I thought that there were trains that go OPTO like the West End Shuttle at nights and the G on weekends.
There are half length OPTO trains that double the frequency of service during off hours.
Doubling the number of trains w/ half the cars does nothing for relieving the crowding !!!!
That isn't the point. The point is to decrease waiting time, which is the worst part of a mass transit system over "On-demand transport" (a car).
That's not what it's for, just to increase frequency in off peak periods. Crowded trains don't get cut in half.
Does anyone have any safety data on vancouver sky train, line 14 or other people movers?
As for my views, it seems quite hard work it on lines as crowded as the new york subways, but seems like a good goal for lines like PATCO, or other shorter lines whose vehicles do not get too crowded.
[Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone?}
A touch sensor is installed on the door I think.
[What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?]
Good for shuttle or the line which has it's right of way (means no other kind of service (like express) run on the line), bad for long line like New York City Subway Line (There must have an operator to supervise, as SCAEM system.).
The MTA's plan to spend million on running fiber optic cables for PA anousements is stupid. The MTA can have these cabled installed FREE. Transit agencies and railroads around the nations are contracting with communications companies to install fiber optics along there ROW. They are paying for this privalage. Alowing a communications company to run fiber optics along subway and commuter rail row's is a win win proposition for the MTA anf NYS. For the MTA it allows them to use new technologies that will bring great efficencies such as centalized communications including platform video survailence, information kiosks, passenger info dispalys, and a host of other features and most important $$$$$$
For NYS it will provide and infrastructure for the 21th century. It will allow more high tech firms to locate within the region and close to mass transit(a win win)
06/04/2000
On this crisp sunny day, I changed at 74th and Roosevelt from the (R) to ride into Grand Central. I made it a must to pick out an R-33 single and boarded #9316. Ahh yes!....Roaring axiflow fans drowning out PA announcements and open storm doors brought back memories when there was no A/C. So when are the R-33's like the 10 R-32 GE's going into summertime hibernation? If it were 85 degrees, I naturally would have opted for an air conditioned married pair unit!
BTW- I checked out the station rehabbing at Grand Central (7) and I found out what those round circular flaired things hanging from the ceiling are. They are to support large fans to move the hot air about. The only one I saw was at the western end of the platform where one escalator is out for rebuilding. The stainless steel station signs leave me cold, could have come up with something better.
Bill "Newkirk"
question to mr ""newkirk"" When the ac DIES on the new 142s & 143s will you complain as much as you did on this last post ??
06/06/2000
Salaam,
You may have me confused with someone else, I never complained about A/C or fans. Just waxing poetic about a soon to vanish staple on the subways, the last piece of equipment with fans.
Bill "Newkirk"
All cars have fans, even the R-142.
On cars from R40AC and up, the blowers (fans) are NOT visible in the cars (as delivered). Cars which have had A/C retrofitted (R32, R38, Slant R40 Non AC) also have blowers (fans) to circulate the air which are also not visible.
wayne
The R-33 Singles usually are taken out of customer service around the first week of July.
06/06/2000
[The R-33 Singles usually are taken out of customer service around the first week of July.]
Since this all depends on the R-142/A and their success and subsequent deliveries, if the R-36WF's are the first to be retired, could this be the last summer of the R-33 singles?
Bill "Newkirk"
I sure hope so!
What idiotic company would retire the newer cars first? They are way better than the other redbirds, the only ones which look decent both inside and out (R26-29 rusty on the outside, R33ML has peeling interior paint). They are also brighter because the TA didn't screw up and get rid of the center lighting track.
They also still flicker on and off, which is still oodles of fun, especially watching the "wave."
It must be great from the street at night, better than traffic lights. I've always have a kick of riding the end of a green light wave. I never got to do it myself (or I think I did last Saturday night).
06/08/2000
Henry,
I was told that Flushing cars (R-33/36) would be the first to go since they had the earliest general overhaul (1983). But since this is the TA we're talking about, that can always change.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Redbirds are apparently being considered as one fleet and will be retired according to condition, not age or time of General Overhaul (GOH).
David
Friday night, I had the opportunity to check out the progress of the Air train. Pretty amazing compared with the snails pace of subway construction. It seems to me that this type of committment and energy is what's needed in several Long island areas. Specifically, I'm referring to a North-South route through Mineola, Roosevelt field Nassau Colliseum area etc. in Nassau. Similarly in Suffolk, north-south from Islip along Carlton Ave. to the new Court Complex, through the various industrial areas and looping through the Ronkonkoma Hub and into macArthur airport. This seems a natural solution to the new eastern 'Silicon Valley' springing up in Islandia. If the PA can do it with such relative speed, it would seem to me, all Long Island needs is the committment.
[Friday night, I had the opportunity to check out the progress of the Air train. Pretty amazing compared with the snails pace of subway construction. It seems to me that this type of committment and energy is what's needed in several Long island areas. Specifically, I'm referring to a North-South route through Mineola, Roosevelt field Nassau Colliseum area etc. in Nassau. Similarly in Suffolk, north-south from Islip along Carlton Ave. to the new Court Complex, through the various industrial areas and looping through the Ronkonkoma Hub and into macArthur airport. This seems a natural solution to the new eastern 'Silicon Valley' springing up in Islandia. If the PA can do it with such relative speed, it would seem to me, all Long Island needs is the committment.]
I read recently that the PA has a good rep when it comes to construction projects, and this tends to confirm that.
Hmm. Do you thin kthey would like to build the 2nd Ave. subway for the MTA? The LIRR to GCT connection?
Hope this on lasts longer than the one in Newark...
The problem is underground construction in a congested area filled with affluent lawyers -- a triple whammy. Elevated construction will always be cheaper.
Money spent on this was wasted. The right of way which should have been used is the old abandoned LIRR Rockaway branch tracks, which would have avoided community protests, cleared up a large stretch of unused land, and put some bridges back into use. The right of way still sits idle, and why it is being wasted like this is a mystery to me.
It certainly would not have avoided community protests, it would have attracted the ire of affluent people vs. poor people.
True. Most people don't know how quiet a train can be. When I went to Newark last week to check on the monorail progress, I got within a few feet of the NEC tracks. I could barely hear the NJT and Amtrak trains as they went by. I suppose it depends on the quality of the track work and cars.
Ballast roadbed is a big help; don't believe there's any left inthe subway. Stand on Queens Blvd. by the Flushing el you'll see the difference. Car construction makes a difference too. The r9 types made less noise on Jamaica Ave. than the newer stuff did, the AB's quieter yet.
There's still some ballast, here and there.
Great idea and if this was an MTA project, the old MTA ROW could have been used. However, this was a PA project. Since the Mayor and the Governor both hold the PA in less than the heighest esteem, it's likely that the PA would not have been given an easier way to go. In fairness, this is the most dierct route and leaves the LIRR ROW open for future development.
The city favored the Rockaway route. It has been defeated by 30 years by a few affluent homeowners on the right of way in Queens.
Meanwhile, the direct to Manhattan route would not serve Long Island, which is given far greater consideration than the city in any state decision.
The Port Authority sees the Airtrain as an extended on-airport circulation system. Thus, from its point of view, those boarding the subway or LIRR at Jamaica do have a direct connection to the "airport," and just need to get on the internal circulation system to get to their particular terminal. After riding the internal circulation system at the Orlando Airport, I see their point -- except for the $5.00 charge, which is inexcusible.
I was under the impression that the $5.00 charge was just for people transfering from the A train. They're not going to give LIRR passengers a free transer?
(I was under the impression that the $5.00 charge was just for people transfering from the A train. They're not going to give LIRR passengers a free transer?)
If they were to give those transferring from the commuter railroad a free transfer, but charge $5.00 for those getting off the subway, the result would be outrage like you've never seen.
If the Port Authority didn't need to maximize it's airport profits to cover the low PATH fare and keep tolls lower than TBTA tolls, it could afford a $1.50 fee for all transfers, which would probably be fair.
[Hmm. Do you thin kthey would like to build the 2nd Ave. subway for the MTA? The LIRR to GCT connection?]
Funny, I've had the same thought. Perhaps when New Jersey Transit takes over the LIRR!
Train Dude, I'm going to agree completely with your comments. I two have been impressed at how fast they got thing going. At the MTA/TA they seem to like a lot more "studies" and "plans". Folks here seem to love to knock the Port Auth., but they obviously do some things right/better.
BTW, this responce has nothing to do with the placement of the Air Train route or that it's a "light rail".
(just thought I'ld add that so we don't start "that" thread all over again)
Mr t__:^)
I don't think the problem is the PA itself, but rather state politicians who would rather feud than do what's right.
06/06/2000
Years ago an idea was floated about to connect the Far Rockaway, West Hempstead and Oyster branches and a conversion to light rail. This of course was shot down, maybe one or two NIMBY's spoke too loudly!
This of course was before "Light Rail Fever". But don't hold your breath, ain't gonna happen!
Bill "Newkirk"
....I found an excellent website on this subject of the Lost Angeles RED LINE anti subway page ....!!!!
********* http//mtla.com/ ****** or you can go to """yahoo""" enter in the search engine in small letters ( mta ) & scroll
down until you find this anti- Los Angeles mta site http//mtala.com/ ...........................................
Unlike the the pablum and B.S. you get on the ""official"" sites here you get the truth from the real transit riders....!!!
persons like myself who are mad as hell ........!!!!
Salaam, The Red Lines does not go to NoWhere, It Servces Downtown, the Wilshire District East Hollywood and Hollywood and soon Universal City, Maybe because it is where you don t go it is to Nowhere, but plenty of people live in those areas who will use it in the future. It is like sayin Fred s Sea Beach Goes nowhere, tell that to people in Brooklyn who use it
Technically you are correct. The Red line will carry some passengers but it will not be a successful subway.
Picture if you can NYC somehow struggling without subways, depending only on private autos and public surface transport, and then one subway line is opened following the route of the "7" line from Times Square to Hunters Point Ave. Although it would not be a subway to nowhere it would not be a success. This is what the Red Line is to L.A. The powers that be have determined that there should be no more subways built in L.A., and one realtively short subway line will never be a rapid transit system.
The line is that short?
Not even Queensborough Plaza?
It is not so much the physical length as it is that the Red Line stops at the pass between the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles Basin. The hills between the Los Angeles basin and the Valley are a barrier similar to the East River. The line does not extend into the population centers in the San Fernando Valley. That's why I suggested that it would stop short of Queensborough Plaza.
Will be about 15 miles when completed
.......why arent the red green & blue lines all compatible ...??
Because the Green and Blue are Light Rail and the Red is Heavy Rail. Like why is Muni SF and Bart not compatible, 2 different seperate types of systems.
......NO .....the RED LINE ( subway to nowhere ) is considered heavy rail & the BLUE & GREEN lines is considered
.......Light Rail ......according to LA- MTA .....the G.D. idiots they are here in lost angeles ..........
I am told the difference is where the power is picked up .....makes no sense to me .!!!!
Not to mention gauge. MUNI is standard gauge (electric streetcars), BART is 5' 6".
The cable gauge is 42", we will not consider this in a compatabilty list.
.....Ok .....I dont totally disagree with you there however answer as to why the L.A. M..T.A. installs a subway type rail system
but it is not compatible with the BLUE & GREEN lines........
The RED LINE is a whole in the ground ""The Subway to Nowhere""....and the RED LINE Subway cars cannot run on the
BLUE & GREEN lines..... Why didnt the la. mta. build a system with all three lines cross compatible ?????
......excuse some of my spelling ....
I believe that rather than ask for your spelling to be excused, you use the arrow a and backspace keys and, while rereading you statements, fix the errors so it is more legible.
The Red line originally would have had a couple of branches to some of the more populated and heavy traffic areas, like west on Wilshire and along the Hollywood Freeway corridor. The Blue and Green lines are smaller capacity lines, built along freeway or railroad Rights of way mainly. I think the RTA realized too late that everything should have been light rail, but it was too late to change the plans without jeopardizing funding from the Federal government. Some states try to get along without much federal funding and get to create what they really want, like the Light Rail in Baltimore and many roads in Virginia.
........there is no ''spell check"" like there is on my yahoo mail so get off my back about spelling every single word to your
standards ...& as long as I understand what some one saays or types I leave enough alone ALSO when you turn 50
your eyes dont see into a computer tv screen as well as they did when you were 20 .!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now ""the dirt on los angeles rail & especially the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE is how many lost thier homes businesses
& even became homeless & on welfare & still havent recieved reperations & payment at all for all of thier suffering here !!
They knew they should have built a mostly outdoor system like was once was here back in the 1950s '...
They also FAILED MISERABLE to go to LAX los angeles airport dodger stadium the coliseum & anahiem stadium
the BLUE LINE will ber broken up into two totally different segments with NO CONNECTION TO THE LONG BEACH
BLUE LINE THRUWAY........and no runs on freeways except the green line which refuses to go to the airport !!!..
When all of this ( excuse me ) SH---it.... was being planned they deleberately overbuilt underbuilt & messed up the whole
thing with everyone except the transit dependent getting ......FREE CORPORATE KICKBACK WELFARE MONEY......
I could go on it makes me so dammed mad !!! Did you understand what i said mr ""spell-check""?????
No, there's no spell check ... but for those of us that know how in the first place, that's not a problem :-)
No offense, Salaam, but there are a number of folks out there who should really proofread before pushing the "Post Message" button.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
.....I am sorry I try sometimes i catch it when it is too late like my last post in which i thought i finally got it right..
today either i did not eat my wheates or missed my starbucks cup of coffee... maybe i should get a new pair
of glasses......... etc.........gee im getting old and weary ...........( thank you ) .....
salaamallah;
Try preparing your post in a word processor that does have a spell check and then transfer the edited text to message box. That works well, particularly when you have a long post.
I have a g old type i mac and an old mac 600 i guess i will have to learn how to do this transfer as i can do with my
"" yahoo e mail -compose "" its easy there also i tried to transfer a jpeg and gif image to the message here
And failed miserable ...............still learning this computer stuff ......!!!! ........thank you .......
I hate to seem argumentative but I am 49, nearsighted, and left-handed.
Ha Carl, I've got you beat all to hell. I'm 59, nearsighted and left handed, what do you think of those apples?
Hey Carl & Fred,
I've got you both beat. I'm 64, originally farsighted, now wearing strong tri-focals, and I have only been left-handed for the past seven years.
Let me tell you, it is tough to learn how to write left-handed after being a righty all of my life!
Sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but what caused your right hand to become unusable?
It's called "Primary Writing Tremor", apparently very rare. It's a type of Parkinson's, but not the same. I still have the use of my right hand, it's just that I can't write with it, or paint models, or any kind of fine detail work. Whenever I try, it shakes so bad that you cannot read the results!
OK, Karl, I concede, you're the champion. And the Dean of the railfans, I believe.
Hey Fred, I'm no champion or dean of railfans, You guys know more subway transit than I ever did during the time I was an active subway fan.
The best thing that can probably said about me is that I am an old guy who still loves the subways!
Ha Carl, I've got you beat all to hell. I'm 59, nearsighted and left handed, what do you think of those apples? But Salaam is right. The Red Line doesn't go to the Coliseum, it does't go to Dodger Stadium, the Blue line doesn't go to Pasadena, and the Green Line stops short of the LA Airport (LAX). I mean is this going things ass backwards or what?
Thank you very much sir : ( mr sea beach ) I do want to re -visit this subject many times ......BITCH...COMPLAIN...etc...
on this subject many times in the future & I am very thankful to the webmanster, Mr . Pirmann and NYC subway resources inc...& giving thanks to all who have suppoeted & understood what I was try-ing to add to this fine message forum ......
So I can along with others ""tell it like it really is" So that the REAL DIRT of ""The myth of public transit in los angeles "..
can finally be told !!!! Today on the tv news it was announced in China Town that the PASADENA BLUE LINE .........
I finally going to be built ?? And the doto do nothing STEALTH mayor riordan shows up with his zero speech etc...
We have heard this Bull- Sh----it before right ?? Like the long beach 710 finally being completed ..( hold your breath )
Also check out the pasadena blue line webpages for a real laugh and the no BLAG anti blue line page ..all on yahoo..
enter "" pasadena blue line "" on your general search on ""yahoo"" & then read the pro & con on this crazy madness !!
( please excuse any of my spelling errors thank you ....) .........
Yes but it now goes to Universal Studios, the Valley(The IMportant Valley, not the Smog Valley, and most important HOLLY-WEIRD, and what is a 2 block walk to the Staples Center. from the blue
well the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE ......the pico station 3 block away and almost un-acessable & no direrct acess etc.
with the 7 th & metro center downstairs transfer to the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE.....to the north.......
the..... LONG BEACH BLUE line will stop there you have to transfer to the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE.....about a few stations on the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE then transfer to .......
two stations to the union station ( AND )......headache......headache......headache.......headache...................
The future so called PASADENA BLUE LINE.......( same system as the long beach blue line - no connection )......!!!!
To the south you can ride thru the 1992 & 1965 riot torn territorry express & local ... all the way to LONG BEACH....
But......at what time does the system stop ? ??? after 11.00 pm forget it... you are stranded.....Good luck.....!!
SALAAM WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYIN THE RED LINE TO NO WHERE? BECAUSE YOU DON T USE IT, WILSHIRE, HOLLYWOOD AND NO HOLLYWOOD ARE NO WHERE?
Bob;
In the grand scheme of things Hollywood is a tourist destination (the movie, TV and recording studios people think of as "Hollywood" are no longer concentrated there), and not that important to daily commuters, the part of Wilshire the Red Line goes to is definately the less desirable part. It does not really go to North Hollywood, but Universal City, home of the tourist attraction Universal Studios. This is at the mouth of the San Fernando Valley, and commuters to downtown from most of the San Fernando Valley would still have a long frustrating drive to get there. Most of those who would think of commuting on public transportation are doing so on Metrolink.
The Red line is great for tourists staying in downtown Los Angeles, and by all means vistors should try it, but relatively few Angelinos will use it.
all of the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE stations were far too overbuilt too fancy & too costly ....!!
So....I'm 51, nearsighted and left-handed. That and $1.35 will get you a ride on the Light Rail.
......a follow up comment .......Check this out....When the pasadena BLUE LINE is finished it will not CONNECT to
the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE .....you will have to transfer thru the red line at least 2 two stations.............
How dumb can you get .........check out the anti - lamta site on yahoo.........
Hi,
What is the shortest above-ground stretch (elevated or open cut)
of subway line in Brooklyn?
Thanks,
Dave
Well, it requires a stretch of the imagination, but I'd say it's the Fourth Avenue line, for less than a block between the 59th Street and Bay Ridge Avenue stations. The line is carried over the Bay Ridge Branch on what is essentially a covered bridge.
David
That's a real stretch, in fact, it does the splits. You can catch only a glipse of daylight on your right side. There is no daylight on the left side and the train never sees daylight, only the passenger who gets a glimpse of it. The West End that emerges from the tunnel after 36th street comes out for a moment or two, then goes back into a tunnel for a couple of hundred yards before it emerges outside again at 9th Avenue. That, to be, would be more legitimate for the shortest amount of daylight between tunnels.
Hi,
What is the shortest above-ground stretch (elevated or open cut)
of subway line in Brooklyn?
Thanks,
I would think that it would be the southbound 14 Street Line track at Wilson Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When the West End line peels off from the 4th Avenue mainline south of 36th Street station, it runs through an open cut for one block between 4th and 5th Avenues before returning to tunnel (under the 38th Street yards) until just north of 9th Avenue station.
Who has the right of way? If a emergency vehicle and a train meet at a crossing, I assume a train has the ROW even if they make a station stop the vehicle has to wait. Am I correct?
If a emergency vehicle goes around the gate and it collides with the train, its the vehicles fault?
I assume there is a federal law giving rail traffic the ROW.
I don't know what laws may be applicable, but ... here's my experience with this. Back in the '60s the NYC Hudson Division had a grade crossing adjacent to the New Hamburg station (it may still be a grade crossing, I just haven't been down there since then). The New Hamburg fire department was just down the street. If an emergency vehicle approached the crossing and a train was coming, the train was expected to stop short of the crossing, or clear the crossing AT SPEED before stopping, as appropriate. This occasionally resulted in a train backing up to make its station stop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In places where underpasses or overpasses are available, emergency vehicles will aviod rail crossings, even if they have to go a few blocks out of the way to the underpass or overpass. I recall this from the time my son dislocated his knee and had to be transported by ambulance to the ER. Even though he did not need to be "rushed" to the ER, the ambulance went 5 or 6 blocks out of the way to use the underpass under the RR tracks rather than take the most direct route via a grade crossing.
-- Ed Sachs
Two programs of interest coming up, one dealing with world subways/metros on Discovery, the other dealing with Underground New York on the Travel Channel:
On the Inside: Subways
Tunneling deep beneath modern cities across the globe, subways, metros and other sub-surface rail systems stand as incredible feats of engineering. The stories of how they were conceived and planned are no less amazing.
Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
DISCOVERY CHANNEL Jun 9 2000 8:00 PM
DISCOVERY CHANNEL Jun 9 2000 11:00 PM
----------------------------------------------------
Mega Tech: Below New York
The underworld of New York City, larger than the city above, is a critical factor in what makes this city tick. Learn what's there and what it takes to keep The Big Apple going.
Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 11 2000 9:00 PM
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 11 2000 12:00 MID.
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 17 2000 6:00 PM
Hi Steve:
I just wanted to send this note to sincerely thank you and everyone involved in your first show for the tremendous and extremely professional effort put into it. I do want to let you know everyone - but most especially the dealers - that I've spoken to has felt the same way. You have certainly proven that such a show does not have to be in an expensive, sometimes difficult-to-reach, location to be successful, and you may rest assured that I will make every effort to have additional dealers and attendees at any future shows you may have. It is comforting to know you are so readily open to suggestion and do not just render lip service.
And, just as a reminder of what we had spoken about, I am again suggesting the renting of a school along the Flushing Line, making your show public transit accessible to far more people. Another thought might be to rent a portion of the New York City Transit Museum's mezzanine area. If you needing any scouting for locations, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Again, my sincere thanks for your unparalleled effort.
Best regards,
Joe Saitta
As the IND emerges from underground after the Church Ave station, you find some poles intact along McDonald Avenue next to the cut, some still with wire remnants attached. Are these remnants of the trolley that used to run there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
If this is by Cortelyou Road or Ditmas, chances are those are remnants of the poles for the overhead powered locos of the South Brooklyn Railway Co.(like #6 Steeplecab at CI Yards).
Did you get any pics?
BTW, there are trolley poles near the intersection of Ave. N and Utica Ave. (a BMT trolley barn used to sit on the current site of "Power Park" playground and the Flatbush Bus depot right behind it).
There is a lone pole over on Tillary Street at the intersection with Cadman Plaza West (aka Court Street).
Of course trolley poles abound at Rockaway Parkway and Glenwood Road.
Doug aka BMTman
Cadman Plaza West at Tillary was once Fulton Street, not Court Street.
Does the South Brooklyn Railway Still exist? If not what is used instead
Yes, the South Brooklyn Railway still operates, but it's street trackage currently consists of a single track that runs between the interchange yard at 39th and 2nd Ave. and the 4th Ave. tunnel portal connecting to the West End line. The diesels, N1 and N2, run over the West End (B train) route to get to Coney Island Yards.
McDonald Ave. street running ended in the early 80's when the DOT repaved the Avenue. And since most -- if not all -- of SBK's original McDonald Ave. clients are not longer there, the street ROW was seen as unnecessary.
At the present time, the SBK (as far as I know) does not have any clients outside of the NYCT (it's parent company). The freight moves are pretty much limited to hauling new and/or old equipment to/from the waterfront areas and distribution of same throughout the system.
Doug aka BMTman
Those line poles were for the McDonald Ave. (Gravesend Ave.) trolley whose tracks hugged both sides of the ramp in the last years of operation.
I am a 29 year old avid railroad/subway fan who is interested in old trains, old subway lines, trolly car tracks,abandon stations etc.
I came from Boston and now live in Florida. Even though the Boston Subway was not extensive.. I did get to know it well and am a member of the Boston street railway society. I try to get to thier meetings every few months.
ANYWAYS... I will be visiting New York City at the end of this month and want to know where I can get info on what i should do to locate old lines, stations etc. Now I hate to be a law breaker.. but I have been know to sneak around The Boston transit system a bit..so i am not afraid of a little adventure.
I have been to the transit museum in the Bronx, but I want to see more infrastructure... like tunnels,power systems etc..
Does anyone have any ides? I will be there around June 23-june 26..Are there any meetings then? groups? Any places that would have old pictures? I am bringing my Video camera..
Thanks for any help... I LOVE your web page...
Rob
rodco@rodcogroup.com
The Transit Museum is in Brooklyn.
Most supermarkets
carry "thins"
in aisle 4..
You see, you got off on the wrong foot with your misplaced boroughs and spelling, RODCO :-) Nothing is worse to New Yorkers than out-of-towners who act like they are familiar with NYC things but really are not. It's worse if you "too cavalierly" propose to do things that New Yorkers know are not that easy to do. Sure it's unfair, but it's taught to us at an early age.
I think you should look at the current system -- which is big enough and old enough -- and not look too hard for abandoned stuff. There is not much abandoned stuff that is easily accessible. You can see most abandoned subway stations by riding the lines listed on the Abandoned Stations section and looking out the windows. Abandoned elevated sections have been torn down (except for a little bit at Myrtle-Bway and Gun Hill Road-WPR).
Have fun and enjoy that NY hospitality...
>>>> that NY hospitality <<<<<<
There's an oxymoran for you.
And Quick Draw McGraw will do the thinnin'. (And do-oo-n't you forget it!) :-)
Old trains in the form of diesel - can be found at the Croton Harmon just 33 miles North of Grand Central Station. Take any Croton Harmon (not Croton Falls) bound train to get there. Also keep in mind that the yard is off limits but that much of it can be seen from teh station and bridge over.
You'll undoubtedly find some FL9 (40-43 years old) equipment lingereing around the area - probably in the shops - perhaps some FP10s (52 years old) as well.
If you want to see a big rail yard - close to the city - go to Sunnyside just across from Manhattan in Queens (Long Island City)- easilly accesible from the Vernon/Jackson stop on the #7 train or the 23rd street/Ely avenue stop on the E. Walk up to JAckson AVenue and you'll see everythign from LIRR to NJT and AMTRAK.
Coney Island Yards are massive and full of interesting stuff. I'm not sure you can gain access - but you can get a number of shots just from the side of the yard which is somethng more than a mile by a mile. Some old transit equipment is stored in the yard and you may get shots of it from the right location.
There are lots of ways to get to the Coney Island yard - but for a possible overhead shot - take the F train to Avenue X in Brooklyn to get to the Coney Island yard.
Email me directly for more information.
Try riding the 4 lines to Coney Island, all have different Right of ways and not to much back tracking, also the A to Rockaway
You could go to the Bronx!!!!
I've already said I'm going to visit the Bronx and see all those wonderful places I'm told exist and haven;t seen in my three trips to New York.
[I am a 29 year old avid railroad/subway fan who is interested in old trains, old subway lines, trolly ... car tracks,abandon stations etc. I have been to the transit museum in the Bronx, ...]
First the TA museum is in Brooklyn not the Bronx ... you get a big Bronx cheer for that one :-)
Now for some thing to do:
- NJ = Take PATH to Exchange Place & ride on new HBLR; continue on PATH to Newark & ride Newark City Subway which has some very well preserved PCCs. On the way back go to Hoboken and walk around the commuter rail line station. Be sure to notice Manhattan's skyline on the other side of the river.
- Back in NYC I like the #1 after 110th you're elavated for ONE stop, then go past a underground yard. Get off at 168th & take the foot bridge over the tracks, then the elevator to reach the IND for your return trip.
- Above ground: the lines to Coney Island, J/Z to Jamaica, L to Canarsie & Flushing line are all nice for different reasons. The numbered lines in the Bronx are elavated too.
- Tourist stuff: Take one boat & get both Statue of Libery & Ellis Islands; C/D stops at Museum of Natural History; You can also get to a Yankee or Mets game via the subway.
And remember you need a "Fun Pass" to realy enjoy it all !
Mr t__:^)
And for express runs, the ultimate is the Central Park West run on an A train of R-38s. Those are the cars with the bottom half fluted, electronic route signs up front, and storm door windows you can look through.
In a recent thread someone mentioned that the term "STRAPHANGER" will soon be obsolete. While this is technically correct, I do not believe that the term will ever disappear from the lexicon. With that being said I pose a query: What word would you use to replace "STRAPHANGER" when all the straps are gone??
Peace,
ANDEE
Nothing, the term will be obsolete in that it's etymology will no longer be practically evident. The word will still be used for generations to come. I don't like the straps, but the term doesn't bother me.
If the Department of Subways had any sense, they would attach straps to the bars like on busses. Best of both worlds, satisfies barfans and strapfans.
06/06/2000
[In a recent thread someone mentioned that the term "STRAPHANGER" will soon be obsolete. While this is technically correct, I do not believe that the term will ever disappear from the lexicon]
Well, the old initials IRT,BMT & IND haven't disappeared even though they are considered obsolete. You never hear on the radio of a derailment on the A Division's Lexington Avenue line!
BTW - If the IRT is the "A" Div, the BMT the "B1" Div, and the IND the "B2" Div, does that make Staten Island Railway the "C" division?
Bill "Newkirk"
[BTW - If the IRT is the "A" Div, the BMT the "B1" Div, and the IND the "B2" Div, does that make Staten Island Railway the "C"
division?]
I don't think so. As far as traffic reports go, they never mention the SIR. And technically, its not a subway line. It should be put in the same category as the LIRR and Metro-North. The only similarity it has with the subway system is that it uses BMT R44s, and the Metrocard system. Besides, no one really gives a damn about the SIR. Many New Yorkers probably don't even know that the SIR exists!
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
SIR{T{OA}} is not part of the TA and is not considered one of
the divisions.
The "C" division is jargon used within the TA to refer to work
equipment, the yards that house it, and the personnel who operate
it.
With the introduction of the new brass dollar (New Stupid Dollar Coin or NSDC) the PATCO change machines now only give whole dollar coins, however I still get the old SBA Dollars (Old Stupid Dollar Coin or OSDC) from time to time. I got to thinking and I just ealized that for the 20 years it has existed, the SBA dollar has basically been a subway token used on North eastern transit systems. Minted in Philly, the only people to really use the SBA were area transit systems like PATCO, SEPTA and the MTA. You would change your dollar bill into SBA's and then use the SBA's to buy tokens. The transit auth. would then put the SBA's baque into the change machines and the cycle would continue. If you ever kept an SBA for your self and tried to spend it elsewhere it would usually require an explanation/history lesson on your part on how A) its not a quarter and B) it is real money. I think that for all intents and purposes the SBA dollar was a defacto Subway Token, Token. Exchangeable only for transit tickes sold in vending machines. I see a similar fate for the NSDC.
PS: Did any of you also notice that the government is also cheaping out on cion production as it did in the new bills. Basically the govt. realized that it could save on both engravers and ink if it replaced the beautiful scrollwork with blank space. I think they intend for the average citizen to doddle in the blank space. Sort of like personalizing the money. Likewise the government realized that it could save money by not milling the egdes of the NSDC, thus doing away with the last illusion that our coinage is made of some sort of precious metal. I am also noticing how the NSDC's are already starting to tarnish.
PPS: I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill. Jeez, out money needs to reflect who we are as a nation and we are not a bunch of buildings. We need to have a car somewhere on American currency. They should have replaced it with an SUV like the Excursion.
PPPS: I am also pissed that they got rid of the Federal Reverve bank letter. Now hoe am I going to tell which cities have which bank.
The second letter of the new serial number reflects the FRB (Federal Reserve Bank) That is... A serial number that starts AB... means it is the "first (A) series or Series 1996 currency" and the B represents the Bank of New York. Even though 1996 was the year the $100s came out, This is all considered series 1996 currency, except I beleieve it may now be referred to as series 1998 or 1999 since one of the signatures changed.
And the US Mint homepage mentions the "tarnish" and likens it to copper roofs.
Note: I agree with everything you said. In a past life I was a Credit Union Teller: and had my share of members coming in with $2 and SBA. Our cash handling system was not equipped for that, so we had to enter $2 in as ones, thus messing up the counting machine, and the SBA as two Kennedy Halfs. (Stupid Oversized Way Underused Coin, or SOWUC?)
SOWUC?? MTA STILL!!! gives out the Kennedy half dollar in their LIRR ticket machines. Just give me two quarters for heaven sakes.
[This is all considered series 1996 currency, except I beleieve it may now be referred to as series 1998 or 1999 since one of the signatures changed. ]
According to their web site the change in signature does not make a new series. Major design changes do.
Arti
There are 3 things that will change a series:
A major design change, a change of the Secretary of the Tresury, and running out of serial numbers.
1995 $1 bills, which were not redisgned, are signed by Robert Rubin. 1999 $1 bills are signed by Lawrence Summers (who has the tiniest signature I've ever seen!)
Serial numbers on 'old' bills are 10 places; the first being the letter code for the FRB district that issues the bill, 8 numbers from 0-9, and another letter. 'O' and 'Z' are not used as the last letter, but '*' is used, on a limited basis. For each FRB, there are 108*25, or 2.5 BILLION serial number combinations for each denomination. There are 12 FRB districts, which means each denomination has a possible 30 BILLION serial numbers. With approximately $494,849,791,667 in circulation worldwide (of all denominations), and the average lifespan of a $1 bill being 18 months, it's very reasonable they've run out at several FRBs. Serial numbers are duplicated between series and denominations (ie, you can have a $5 and a $1 with the same serial, as you can have a 1988A $1 and a 1999 $1 with the same serial)
The NEW serial numbers, which have 11 places, have a letter to indicate series (1996=A, 1999=B), a letter to indicate FRB, an 8 digit number, and a non-numeric character, one of the 25. This allows, assuming they don't use 'O', 'Z', or '*' as the first letter, 108*24*25, or 60 BILLION combinations, (if you throw in the FRB letter, 720 BILLION. That's better than the odds for DNA!) for each FRB, and no duplicate serial numbers can exist between series, but they can exist between denominations.
-Hank
The asterisk (*) found on some bills indicates when the Treasury destroys a bill (due to wear, damage, etc) and reassigns that serial number to a new bill.
-- Dave
ccording to Treasury:
When an imperfect note is detected during the manufacturing process after the serial number has been overprinted, it must be replaced with a new note. A "star" note is used to replace the imperfect note. Reusing that exact serial number to replace the imperfect note is costly and time consuming. The "star" note has its own special serial number followed by a star in place of a suffix letter.
The serial number of the imperfect note that was removed is not used again in the same numbering sequence.
"Star" notes are quite common and are not considered collectible items.
Arti
The 18-month lifespan of a $1 bill is all the more reason to have a dollar coin. Coins last a heck of a lot longer and can save the Treasury $$$. I really hope the new dollar coin catches on.
It won't unless the Treasury kills the $1 bill, which it currently says it won't do. People are lothe to get rid of the familiar, and even though the gov't is spending $ to convince us otherwise, it isn't going to work. The coins have been in circulation for some time, I have yet to get one in general circulation, and at our recent Parish fair, where my wife and I are the "Money folks", we only took in 1 gold dollar the whole weekend. The Light Rail and Subway ticket machines are still issuing SBA's as change.
Not only should they get rid of the $1 bill, but they should issue lots of $2 bills along with these $1 coins. This way we only need less than half the number of them and dollar coins can be used as change, since $1 buys what about $.20 did 30 years ago. Not having the $2 bill makes it more difficult to get rid of the $1 bill, since a minimum of 5 coins will be needed to make change of a $5 bill. Every next denomination in most countries is 2 to 2.5 times the previous one. Our major discrepancies are 25 cents to $1 and $1 to $5 because no one want the $2 bills. And while we are at it, we might as well get rid of pennies in cash use, but maintain them in bank balances. Okay, I'm getting down off my currency soapbox now....
The fed reserve letter is STILL there. It's the second letter in the serial number. The seal is no longer unique to each bank, but it's a rather simple process to discover which letter is for which district (the district number is also on the bill, right under the left-hand serial number; ie New York bills have 'B2' below the serial.)
The first letter in the serial number is for the series. 1996 series ($100, $50, and $20 only) have A, 1999 series (so far, $100, $20, $10, and $5) have a B, and then the FRB letter. Every time they re-do the currency (any time the Sec Tres or Tresurer change), this letter will change, as will the series year. More info can be found at The BEP web site and some more info at Where's George.com.
As for the dollar coin: The edge is not milled for a reason: It's not a quarter. The new coin is the same size, shape, and weight of the old SBA, but with the coloring and smooth edge, is much less likely to be mistaken for a quarter. Vending machines everywhere capable of dispensing more than $2 in change handle dollar coins. Granted, the majority of them seem to be transit systems, but there are others out there. The vending industry would LOVE for the new dollar coin to be generally accepted, since the bill changers on vending machines are a maintainance headache, and easy to fool. Also, the costs of handling the paper money are higher than that of coins, since coin processing is completely automated.
Oh, it seems people LIKE the new dollar coins. They're hoarding them like crazy. 18 million have been put into circulation, but few are making the rounds. The same occured with the SBA in recent times, which is why they created the new coin.
As for the new bills, everything needs to change, and it's time for the luddites amongst us to get a grip. The scrollwork on the original bills was there to deter counterfeiting. With the new technology in the bills (glowing threads, watermarks, magnetic ink, microprinting, color-shifting ink, etc.) the scrollwork was unneccesary. With the larger artwork, it was already a complicated engraving job to create the plates. The large amount of white space permits the use of a watermark, which could not otherwise be used if the area was heavily printed.
We don't need any kind of vehicle on the currency. Depictions of government institutions, memorials, and in the case of the $2, historical events is just fine.
-Hank
Yes, I determined how to find the Federal reserve Letter, but because the old seal is no longer there I often forget which letter goes with what city. It always made me feel good to see Phidelphia emblazened on the currency.
Here's the code.
A. Boston
B. New York
C. Philadelphia(?)
D. Cleveland
E. Richmond(?)
F. Atlanta
G. Chicago
H. St. Louis
I. Minneapolis
J. Kansas City
K. Dallas
L. San Francisco
Yes, C is Phila., E is Richmond. That's because I live between the two and get both...
I live in Baltimore, and all we get is Richmond FRD bills. Strangely enough, Baltimore is about halfway between Philadelphia and Richmond, it's about 90 miles from each.
Go Fig.
Here in Denver, we get a mix of bills from San Francisco, Dallas, and Kansas City. Coins are another story. Almost everything circulating out here is minted right here in town. I did get a nice, shiny 2000-P dime in my change the other day, however.
Steve B-8AV EXP:
C is Philadelphia and E is Richmond
BMTJeff
/*PS: Did any of you also notice that the government is also cheaping out on coin production as it did in the new bills.*/
Yeah. The new dollar bills are ugly too.
/*Basically the govt. realized that
it could save on both engravers and ink if it replaced the beautiful scrollwork with blank space.*/
The new currency is ugly, plain and simple. Lots of new things are ugly. Look at the LIRR's stuff, modern cars, etc. Good industrial is a lost art.
/* I am also noticing how the NSDC's are
already starting to tarnish.*/
Try washing them with Top Job or Mr Clean...
/*PPS: I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill.*/
Yeah, it sucks.
/*Jeez, out money needs to reflect who
we are as a nation and we are not a bunch of buildings.*/
Or at least have some variety to it. And color.
/*We need to have a car somewhere on American currency. They should have replaced it with an SUV like the Excursion.*/
Nah, I'd go for a 2 nicely chopped Harleys blasting down the road in front of the building :)
/*PPPS: I am also pissed that they got rid of the Federal Reverve bank letter. Now how am I going to tell which cities have which bank.
*/
Ugh. They got rid of that TOO? I used to love looking at money to see which city is was from.
The only reason the dollar coin will fail is because the people in government have no guts. If they did, they wouldn't spend any money bringing George Washington back from a 201 year death to pedddle a coin with somebody else on the obverse. They would just stop making one dollar bills and make twos. It worked for Canada. And if you're going to use that "Canadian Dollar isn't as expensive as an American Dollar" garbage, the Euro, which will go into circulation next year, was originally released at a value of $1.17 to €1.00. It may be worth about $.97 to €1.00 now, but it was planned, from the begginning, to have €1 and €2 coins and the lowest bill is to be a €5 one.
Those unwilling to accept change (pun intended) will be left behind.
Luddites, all of them!
-Hank
In Canada they have $2 coins aswell.
Arti
The new dollar is proving to be quite popular and, from my experience, quite recognizable. I don't care for the obverse, but the eagle design on the reverse is quite attractive. Neither do I care for the appearance of the coin when tarnished - I've got one that I've been carrying since mid-March just to see how the tarnish progresses. I have yet to receive one in change, except from a vending machine (the Post Office stamp machine at my office gives them in change, plus I've gotten one from an MVM). Even the toll collectors between NJ and Washington don't seem to mind them, simply because it is instantly obvious what you are giving them.
They should become quite common beginning in July, since it is my understanding that the Post Office will no longer give dollar bills in change over the counter at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill. ]
According to US Treasury web site:
" There are four cars represented on the reverse of the ten-dollar bill. None of these automobiles are of any specific year, make, or model, but rather a composite representation of the style of automobiles manufactured in the early 1920's. "
Arti
Like they would admit in this age of lawsuits that they had put a Model T on the 10. Ford would demand royalties. I don't know about the other 3 cars, but the one in the foreground is a Model T. Besides, what other cars even existed in 1920. The Model T was everywhere.
No, they wouldn't. GM, Daimler-Chys;er and others would demand damages, because it would constitute government promotion of Ford.
BTW, the US Governement is the worlds largest buyer of Fords.
-Hank
[As of February 28, 1999, of the $486,291,684,565 in total currency in worldwide circulation, $322,046,548,000 is in the $100 denomination.]
It's hard to believe that such a large percentage of circulating currency is in $100 notes. Especially since most people don't handle them on a daily basis. I wonder where those stacks of C-notes are hidden?! Heypaul, is there something you're not telling us about that R-9 cab in your apartment :-)
I have also wondered why they don't resume printing $500 (McKinley), $1000 (Cleveland), $5000 (Madison) and $10000 (Chase) notes. Since these were last printed in 1945 and last released in 1969, you would think that by now, with inflation, the need for them would have arisen.
Just to keep this somewhat on topic - my wife and I took the tour of the BEP two years ago when we visited DC. Of course, we took WMATA to visit all the various attractions in our Capital.
I would guess these large bills were mainly used by banks back in the day, to deposit money in one another's vaults. Nowadays this is all electronic. Maybe the $500 would get used, but I doubt the others would.
Who was Chase? And I'd vote for somebody besides McKinley and Cleveland. We can do better.
Salmon P. Chase, Secretary of the Treasury at one time.
The large denominations were favored by drug dealers and smugglers but saw very little other legitimate usage, hence their discontinuance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The large denominations were favored by drug dealers and smugglers but saw very little other legitimate usage, hence their discontinuance. ]
Currently in US there is no real need for even a $100 bill (credit cards) In the parts of the world where transactions are commited in US cash the issue of forgery is very serious. I've suprised people with $2 bills, they don't believe it's not bogus as they have never seen it.
Arti
[Salmon P. Chase, Secretary of the Treasury at one time]
He must have been a very fishy character!
Rim shot!
I saw a $10,000 note at a coin show in Denver once. Have also seen $500 and $1,000 notes at such shows. Of course, the latter two were commonly seen on Let's Make a Deal.
There was also a $100,000 note with Woodrow Wilson's portrait on it. They were only used for transactions between Federal Reserve banks and never circulated.
The interesting thing is, the tresury will redeem them for face value, and then destroy them. That means even collectors must pay full face value of the bill, in addition to any collectible premium. This is because the treasury NEVER de-values currency.
-Hank
I think you meant to say "demonetize". While currency was never demonetized except for gold coins, all postage stamps were when the Civil War broke out. In other words, you couldn't use the very first stamps issued in 1847 for postage today, but you could theoretically use an 1892 Columbian commemorative.
Don't forget the 1 trillion dollar bill with Truman giving the thumbs up or the 50,000 dollar bill with all the presidents on it having a party.
Right, only on Truman's note, instead of "In God We Trust", it says, "The Buck Stops Here".:-)
The Europian Union was catching FlacK for issueing a 200 Euro note because it would mainly be used by criminal types. Now while I personally don't have a problem with criminals getting access to large bills (hey, they have to make a living too), I was upset that the US 100 was going to be de-throned as the standard underworld legal tender. But with the Euro loosing most of its value I can breath easier.
Don't hold your breath.
There will also be a €500 bill.
[It's hard to believe that such a large percentage of circulating currency is in $100 notes. Especially since most people don't handle them on a daily basis. ]
Most people in US where we use credit cards. Well US currency is de facto used in Russa and many other countries with weak economy. Some countries use US currency instead of national (Panama). On a side note cash machines in Las Vegas dispense $100 bills.
Arti
The ones in Atlantic City do as well.
Right, $100 bill does good where it's not much money or reverse :-)
Arti
Best thing about that tour is the sign over the pallet of bills "Have you ever been so close, and yet so far away?"
-Hank :)
Another interesting thing about the $2 bill is the famous deformed foot. It's visible near the right side of the portrait of the Signers on the reverse of the bill, just under a tablecloth. It cannot possibly belong to one of the people sitting or standing in the area unless his leg is twisted backward at the knee.
I have a series 1995 $2 bill, which is badly rumpled, along with a bunch of series 1976 notes. This denomination was discontinued in August of 1966, then as you mentioned, made a comeback during the Bicentennial. AFAIK, Jefferson's portrait dodn't change from earlier versions; I also have series 1953 and 1963 $2 notes and the portrait looks the same.
When I worked at Lakeside Park, one of my colleagues took out a packet of $2 bills from his bank and gave them out for change during Nickel Day one year. He got a lot of surprised looks from customers.
Just to keep this on topic, I wonder how often station agents see these notes when customers buy tokens.
Back in the pre-Metrocard days they saw one almost every time I bought a token - and, since I was usually joy-riding, I bought my tokens one at a time, "and a map of the system too please". I have found it very hard to get them in New Jersey the last year or so - none of the banks that used to have them are carrying them any more, and my credit union won't even get them for me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was wondering if anyone knew how the signaling worked on the subway portion of the surface-subway. I was looking at a signal \, but I could see no track circut breaks on the rails. Does it use some other system of signaling. How do the operators get the correct route at interockings?
What property are you referring to? Did you see any loops of
wire inside the gauge? It could be a tuned audio track circuit.
Philly?
Yeah, what other sity has the "Surface Subway".
Boston, Pittsburgh and San Francisco also have similar operations to Philly's subway-surface operations.
If you are talking about switch tracks, like how does the driver choose between going west on the #10 or west on the 11,13,34,36 track, he does it by the amount of current released. If he accelerates he becomes a #10, if he coasts he does the opposite (or is it the other way around??). They also have a toggle switch to imitate accelerating. This is how switches work in the street, too. That's all I know about it.
If you mean the block signals, I believe they work the same as other railway signals (current thru the rails). SEPTA is investigating a CBTC system which is sort of a 'rolling block' (similar to that proposed for the Canarsie Line on NYCT).
One oddball signal on the indication immediately at the entrance to every station is a three-color signal with a yellow ball beneath the signal number. This yellow ball came on if a car was in the station. The following car could enter if the yellow ball was on once it made a safety stop at the red-over-yellow indication. Recent rear-end accidents have ended this practice and the result is slower operation in the subway.
There are no trip arms/automatic stops, so if a car goes through a red ball, the operator gets written up if he gets caught.
You may have also noticed that the eastbound track is 'dark' (i.e. no signals) from 22nd to just west of 15th. This is due to the regular backup of cars here in the peak hours. Whether this will change with the CBTC system is unknown to me.
Let's see. First, that's the old way to throw an electric switch. (More later in this post.)
SEPTA now uses the V-Tac system, which employs a tunable coil on the car (set to the route and run number by a small console on the dash). The coil sends a signal to a sensor mounted between the rails about 25 feet from the switch. The signal sets the switch according to the routing set. The operator, once having set the route, never has to do anything else. The V-Tac system will route the car correctly for the rest of the run (or day). One neat feature of the system is used at Elmwood Depot. A car pulling in is given a track assignment in the yard. The operator sets the console with no route and the number of the track assigned. V-Tac sets every ladder switch correctly and sends the car to the proper yard track. It is really wild to watch every switch in a ladder change at once. To deactivate the V-Tac system, simply set the console to 00 00 and the system turns the coil on the car off.
Now for the old way.
The standard electric switch control depends on power on /off to set the switch. Applying one point of power while passing under the contactor would set the switch for the diverging route, while drifting under the contactor sets the switch for the normal route.
About that "toggle".
When the PCC car was introduced, the designers had a problem. Because the PCC control does not allow the operator to know how much power is being drawn, electric switch control was nearly impossible. The PCC designers allowed for a an auxiliary circuit to throw electric switches. On the gang switch is a switch labeled "Track Switch". This switch operates a circuit that draws the equivialant of one point of power and throws the switch. Press the button (usually the button has a spring extender on it to make it stand out) as the car goes under the contactor and the electric switch sets to the diverging route. Don't press the button and the switch sets to the normal route.
It is possible to throw an electric switch with the power pedal on a PCC car, but it's not recommended. Only one property that I know of ever threw electric switches with the power pedal was Shaker Rapid, which ran multi-unit PCC trains with more than one trolley pole on the wire. Shaker's switch contactors were 110 feet from the points rather than the standard 55 feet.
On most properties, throwing electric switches with the power pedal on a PCC car was an absolute no-no. Baltimore Transit had at least 2 bad accidents caused by operators running under contactors with the power on. In both cases the switch threw to the diverging route and the car, moving too fast to stop, derailed as it hit the switch. In one, the car hit two autos and both trucks derailed. In the second, car 7400, operating on the 8 line, derailed at Irvington loop and hit a tree, demolshing the car's front. Same cause: Car passed under switch contactor with power on.
There is a nice article about the New York Cross Harbor Railroad in the July issue of "Trains" magazine.
Dave
If you're a transit fan stuck in Florida for a weekend, there could be worse places to spend some time than at the Tampa International Airport. No less than 7 different "lines" serve the terminal buildings.
The Tampa Airport has a unique system of "airside" pods connected to the central core by monorail-style people mover systems. Each pod is serviced by two tracks with a 1-car or 2-car shuttle going back and forth on its track. The oldest ones were installed when the airport first opened circa 1971-1975 (airside B, D, E). Both Airside B and Airside E buildings are currently closed for rebuilding; Airside D had it's 24 year old shuttle cars replaced within the past few years. The newest pods, Airside A and Airside F, have two-car trains on each track. The cars are serviced at the airsides, a bay underneath the platforms is visible when arriving at Airside A, for instance. The platforms have edge doors that resemble elevator doors. The Airside A track is somewhat different from the others; the others are all fairly straight, short, and flat; Airside A's guideway is curved and slopes downhill from terminal to pod. It takes approximately 45-60 seconds to travel between terminal and pod.
The short-term and long-term parking decks are connected on Level 5 by a people mover loop system. There are three stations in the terminal (well, it's really four but one is on a single-track section and the car doors open on both sides- they call this two stations), and four in the parking desk, each named for a famous aviator. The small cars change ends at the single track stub at Sikorsky/Yeager station, stop at Armstrong station (still in the terminal building) and run in a counterclockwise loop around the parking structure (making stops at Wright, Jannus, Goddard, and Lindberg stations) before returning to the terminal, with a stop at Earheart station (directly across from Armstrong station). Inside the parking structure there is a loop track for holding out of service cars. The cars operate similar to a horizontal elevator. Each station has a monitor showing the locations of the cars and there is a "press to call" button like an elevator. You can also walk between the stations along the trackway, which is on the other side of a fence.
Pictures
This system's equipment and track look almost identical to that in use at Seattle-Tacoma Airport, except that at SEA, it is completely underground.
SEA's "system" consists of one north-south line running on a big curve under the main terminal building, plus two circular loop lines that connect with the north-south line. The loop lines each go to the "satellite" terminal buildings at either end of the airport, the one at the north end serves UAL and the south end serves Northwest.
All three of the "routes" have two-car trains. The maintenance facility/switching between lines seems to be accessed (very hard to see) by a transfer-table type setup in which the cars are positioned properly and slid sideways.
Yeah. I think I rode every single one there when I had a 5 hour layover there!!!
Nice shots, Dave. They look very similar to the ones in Salt Lake City and in Las Vegas. Next time I'm out there I'll have to take some photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's good to see this fine award winning airport on this fine site!! Iwish I was back in Tampa now!!....Also, Atlanta has some type of people mover system as well.
It's funny that when you ride it, you start in a very air-conditioned building with dark lighting and walls, then the train goes outdoors with boiling hot sun and hot-looking white concrete, then terminates inside a dark air-conditioned building again. It's almost like some science-fiction movie.
Yesterday on the transit museum tour to port washington, i saw a maroon R21/22!from the M1's window in corona yard. It was a 9000 series.
If it was an R21/22 type, then it wasn't a 9000 series car.
The R21's were 7050-7299.
The R22's were 7300-7749.
The 9000's could be:
R33 8806-9305 (mainline), 9306-9345 (Flushing singles) or
R36 9346-9679 (mainline & Flushing married pairs)
I know what he is talking about. It is a renumbered locker car. I'll pass the number later.
Thats right. It is used a locker car and has a little office and desk in it. It is in a non-electrified siding track right up against the bumper. The mechanics and other parts of this car have been removed for use in maintaining other cars, rendering it unpowered. I believe that car hes been there for at least five years.
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
It is numbered 9306. Go figure now we have two cars with the same number and the property plate with the original number is missing.
It is renumbered 9306 (One # lower than the lowest R-33s in Corona)......Guess they forgot that there is a 9306 (At the Transit Museum).......Don't matter since both cars do not run up miles or require trips to the inspection barn.
one of the numbers was whiteish
What part of the bronx was it fimed in and at the end of the movie, is that chase scene on foot through Charlotte street.
Fort Apache the Bronx was filmed in the area near Simpson Street (the #5 train vicinity-Westchester Ave.)I don't remember the film very well because I saw it about 2 or 3 years ago.
But hey, Borg- type up this address for more info: www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/ddc/html/ftappht.html
Did hollywood use the actual precinct of did they errect one in the middle of the South Bronx. Was anything added to the neighbourhood or was what we say in the movie what the landscape looked like.
Outside was filmed on Location and in the Studios
Well, I'm not sure about anything as far as adding things to the backround, but Fort Apache actually WAS a real precinct at one point, believe it or not. It was not just build for the movie, but housed the 41st Precinct. The name "Fort Apache" came from a neighborhood legend that says someone once shot an arrow through the window of the precinct or so the stories goes. Believe it or don't believe it. But this is an actual place that you can go visit. It was renovated a few years back and it now used for other purposes. It is now surrounded by those nifty little one-family houses that are going up all over. To get to the old 41st Precinct AKA "Fort Apache", take the 5 train to Simpson Street and walk about a block north and it's right there.
I live not far where Old 41st Precinct & i seen that movies couples time. The movies made in Bronx, New York City. You can see old buses & subways in the background even the old Simpson St Station too.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
When the movie came out, was the comunity insulted that their neighbourhood was depicted as a war zone of gangs and out of control urban decay?Today, how has the area changed and what does it look like around the 41st.
(troll mode on)
Why do these questions sound as if we're being quizzed for a class paper?
David
(troll mode off)
Dojn't know if there was community opposition, there was an apology of sorts in the credits. If it was true why get mad over an honest depiction? A s for today I'm thankful to see many of the l905-l920 (or so) buildings restored and the area looking livable. Looks more like I remembered it in the 50's. [Being honest I don';t think anyplace is as mellow as they were in the 50's]When I left in the 70's it was a disaster, so was the West Bronx where I was raised.
The "old" Simpson Street station is STILL the "old" Simpson Street station - they haven't done too much with it except install those dopey "hat" lights along the platform, which DO provide good light but look ridiculous.
They've come a LONG way with that neighborhood, I'm telling you. Nothing to fear there. After dark? I don't know; but I haven't heard of any crime waves in that part of the world since the renaissance began.
The BRONX is on the way UP. Read my other post (just before this one)
The "old" Simpson Street station is STILL the "old" Simpson Street station - they haven't done too much with it except install those dopey "hat" lights along the platform, which DO provide good light but look ridiculous.
They've come a LONG way with that neighborhood, I'm telling you. Nothing to fear there. After dark? I don't know; but I haven't heard of any crime waves in that part of the world since the renaissance began.
The BRONX is on the way UP. Read my other post (just before this one)
wayne
The only way the Bronx could have gotten from the 70s was Up, back then it looked like Beirut in the 80s
Yeah, The Bronx was SO bad back in the early 80's that a couple of sci-fi movies about post-nuclear holocaust warring nomads/mutants were shot there. I think there was one with Fred Williamson called "1990: Bronx Warriors" or something like that was partially shot on Charlotte Street?
Sadly, the devastated neighborhoods of the South Bronx made a great backdrop for cheapo "Mad Max" type Hollywood ripoffs.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe the films Wolfen, Escape from the Bronx and Fort Apache the Bronx were all filmed in and around the big whole on Carlotte street.I'm missing a bunch of them, please feel free, I'd like to know as well.
If you see A Bronx Tale don't be faked out..it was filmed in Astoria, one scene with an L in the background looked like the Canarsie line in Brownsville Brooklyn. And the #12 bus never went by l87 & Belmont.
You got that right.I'd love to know what the hell both President Carter and Reagan were looking at when they visited Charlotte Street. They looked utterly out of place like lost tourists. In 1977, great picture of Carter before burnt out abandoned tenements in the Daily News.
How could community activists and Government leaders let this happen? In the 40's and 50's The Bronx was a vibrant borough full of life. How can and area fall victim to such a mass exodus and urban decay.Have any government figures answered for the fall of the Bronx?
Who or what is to blame????
See if any of this fits?
After WW II , theres alot of G.I.s with good jobs and money in the Bank. Not eniugh to pay for a house , but the down payment.
Enter the Real Estate broker and his good friend the banker. They play golf. They Talk.
Now introduce block buster minorities and rumors of Raped cars and stolen wivwes and daughters.
Now comes the White knight from Westchester,Nassau and Bergen counties. The bankes are lending mortgages, real estate is getting commissions, and rentcontrol is getting increases in rental charges.
Its a win , win , win , deal for everybody. The suburbes are developed. Now lets bring it to every major city in the country. Lending institutions loved the results of predjudice.
avid
Rent Control and Welfare (aka Leechism) killed the Bronx.
Suburban expansion was responsible too, but in this case a combination of many factors (including the above) was involved.
Is rent control not still going on in NYC?
If anyone wants a in depth analysis of the rise and fall of the South Bronx, e-mail me. There are many, many factors involved. Feel free to e-mail me.
[rumors of Raped cars and stolen wives and daughters]
I, uh, think you've got something backward ...
Marty: I asked the same question ten days ago, and I got a bunch of don't knock the Bronx pieces from a bunch of angry colleagues. You may not believe it, but back in the late 1940's when I was eight and nine, people moved from Queens and Brooklyn to some of the finer neighborhoods in the Bronx. It was less crowded and there were even areas that resembled suburbs there. The Bronx was looked upon by us as an exotic faraway place, even though it was not that far away. What happened to that borough in the intervening period in unfathomable. I don't know who gets the blame but from the places I have seen, it looks like the whole place has gone to seed. I was told of places that are still nice, but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.
>>>but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.<<<
Very true. However once all of Brooklyn was nice, all of Queens was nice,All of Manhattan was nice, etc, etc.
Peace,
ANDEE
But it wasn't at the time you're talking about, everybody who lived in the era when all of the Bronx was nice (read: before the industrial revolution) is dead today.
And people who moved to the Bronx then, move into neighborhoods that are the same today as they were then. Few moved from Brooklyn or Queens to the Greater South Bronx.
[You may not believe it, but back in the late 1940's when I was eight and nine, people moved from Queens and Brooklyn to some of the finer neighborhoods in the Bronx. It was less crowded and there were even areas that resembled suburbs there. The Bronx was looked upon by us as an exotic faraway place, even though it was not that far away. What
happened to that borough in the intervening period in unfathomable. I don't know who gets the blame but from the places I have seen, it looks like the whole place has gone to seed. I was told of places that are still nice, but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.]
A couple of factors may be at play here. Our ideas as to what constitutes a "nice" neighborhood surely have changed over time. While I wasn't around then, I get the impression from what I've read and heard that living in relatively high density multifamily housing was no big deal back in the 1940's and at least partly into the 1950's. People hadn't yet become thoroughly enchanted with the idea of a single-family suburban house with a yard and a white picket fence. Of course, tastes changed, and before long the suburban house became a part of our culture and there was a mass migration out of the cities. Once that happened, the old urban neighborhoods suddenly didn't look quite so nice anymore, regardless of their actual condition. Some people think otherwise, it goes without saying, but by and large the urban neighborhoods that remain desirable today tend to be either those with luxury buildings (think Upper East Side) or architecturally desirable townhouses and similar structures (think Brooklyn Heights). Areas with ordinary, mid-rise apartment buildings just don't have as much appeal anymore, even when they're physically in good shape. That's why, in the long run, the Bronx is likely to benefit from the sort of low-density residential construction that's been noted here, even though the overall population will drop (now, if there just could be more jobs in the borough ...)
My second factor is a lot less complicated. Places often look a lot better in our memories than they did at the time. Neighborhoods in the Bronx and elsewhere that were unexceptional at best many years ago may seem nice when we think about them today. Just human nature at work, I suppose.
I read those last week. I'm glad you survived! We can say what we want about the Bronx. Let's call it for what it is. 20 years ago Charlotte street was ghetto street of the nation.Today that notorious title has moved on to another street.Congratulations!
I'm glad urban renewal is happening in the Bronx. It deserves it.
Still lot's of work to do!
This is just a test
whats the point of the single ride? i think it is so rediculous. it is also an environmental hazard as is the rest of the metrocards that are dropped all over the place. were trying to phase out the token? if so it shouldn't work. it is a waste. sort of.
The single ride is just that - a single ride. There are plenty of people in this city who can barely put together the cost of one ride, so the regular MetroCard is not for them.
The intent is that the single fare card will replace the single token once tokens are just a memory (whenever that may be). Hopefully they will institute a free transfer use on these cards.
Yes, the discarded cards will make a mess (along with the current discards of Bus Transfers and empty MetroCards). Aside from more garbage cans right near the turnstiles and a concerted education campaign by the MTA, I don't know what else can be done.
Turnstiles that keep the single rides in a hopper like the bus fare boxes.
Believe it or not there are probably some people in NYC that do not regularly take the subway. They travel in private cars and taxis most of the time. But maybe once in a great while they need to get from one place to another where the subway is the fastest method of travel. They want to pay a single fare to get where they are going, and do not know when if ever they will take the subway again.
There are more New Yorkers who never take the subway than you may think. I had a cousin who was born and raised in the Big Apple, and he once told he hadn't been on the subway in 25 years.
I see several problems with the single ride card.
1- It is only good for two hours and then expires. A token can be bought ahead of time and is good (assuming they dont go to a different token) anytime. I have already had quite a few complaints from
customers about this.
2- There is no subway to bus transfer and no bus to subway transfer. They see the card says " MetroCard" and expect the transfer.
Now personal opinions:
to be a success they need to make these changes:
1- Remove the two hour limit and allow trade in of unused cards when they reach the expiration date on the back of the card.
2- Allow bus to subway and subway to bus transfer just like regular MetroCards.
The bin for used MetroCards was a noble idea but due to poor design the bins are usually broken into by the homeless or those without the money for a fare and the cards wind up on the floor where they are picked up and used for scamming others. (Yes- if we see someone pick up a card we know came from the floor we can say that the card wont go into the computer[not false- they are usually bent.] and if they try to sell swipes we can call the police or warn the potential victim.
**this post is personal opinion and not the opinion of MTA and/or NYCT
In Chicago, at least one turnstile at each station accepts coins so that one can pay for a single ride in cash. There are also change machines at each station so one can covert paper money into $1.00 coins. (Current CTA fare, without transfer, is $1.50).
-- Ed Sachs
Well since Doug (BMT Man) mentioned Transit Transit in the Transit Model show thread I thought I would point out that this month's show features the Shoreline Trolley Museum of East Haven as the filler between segments and has it's own segment. If you look fast at the bench in the opening you will see Doug sitting there as 629 (3rd Ave Car) pulls in.
There is a segment about the "other Diamond" of Brooklyn and his tunnel (quick picture) and his museum. A segway from our PCC 1001 to his.
HBLR is in it, a segment on work trains of NYC Transit and the vacum train/track geo car (our W3 crane car segways) and Mr. Belmont's Mineola car is quickly in it.
Sadly the segment of Doug (BMT Man) scrapping paint off of R17 6688 has been left on the cutting room floor.
Our Jeff H. is pictured in there a few times in his beloved 1001.
If you hang around to the closing (as credit roll), I'm operating 775 great shot of my tush (and I have to crouch slightly to see out the window, Mom yelled at me for not standing up straight), forgive the horn blowing (against our rules) but they wanted it for the filming >G<.
Lou, I'm sure your Tush looks terrific on video! ;-)
Are you planning on starring in some "blue movies" next?
BMTman
I saw the show just a little while ago. It was interesting.... Too bad they cut 6688 out of the picture. It would have been interesting being that she's a car from NY running on a scenic route. NY Cars rule in Branford!
-Stef
They cut out 6688? That would have been nice to have seen. I haven't seen an R17 in action since 1989 when they ran a set of them in the Redbird scheme on the Dyre Avenue line (would have been nice to have ridden it). I actually thought they were going to overhaul the R17s when I saw these cars. Unfortunately, that didn't happen...
No, the single unit cars (pre-R-26) were not included in the GOH program. Too bad my personal favorite, 1689, wasn't featured.
1689 is buried at the end of the barn from the operating end of the barn so they wouldn't have pulled her out for pix. You can see her if you take the tour since she is next to the snow sweeper and you see her nose and number plate >G<.
Congrads to Lou, Doug & Jeff for the moments of fame ! I look forward to seeing you all this Wednesday at 8 PM (Westbury channel 71).
When we have the SubTalk awards we'll have to incl. a catagory for best preformance in movie, plus best interview in print.
Mr t__:^)
I was just looking at the latest Amtrak(Winter 2000) Northeast Timetable and noticed a couple of things I thought strange. Example ``Northeast Direct Service(Bring back the old names) Trains 95/191/195 leave NY Penn Station at 1132 AM and arrive at Baltimore at 201 with a 3 minute stop in Phil. The Silver Star #91 leaves NYP at 1132 and leaves Phil 1 hour 3 minutes later then the Direct, and 1 hr and 32 minutes later In Balt with the same number of stops. Also similar between 145 and the Crescent.and others, can anyone tell me why. These are not Metroliners?
They wait longer at each stop. Remember the long haul trains have to discharge passengers too. Some have sleeper cars and the attentends and conductors have to make sure everyone gets off. Passengers have too check their rooms too make sure everything is with them. Conductors may have to show people to their room. This is why it takes longer. Also I didnt mention pumping out the black water tanks and refilling the fresh water. May also need food service too.
Southbound, the Silver trains are 'Board Only' between NYP and WAS.
-Hank (will be on 97/98 at the end of the month)
They do not discharge between NYC and Alexandria VA, food is put on board at Sunnyside and Washington Union Station, with 6 stops at 5 minutes each it is only a 30 minute difference, still too long.
Not really, considering they've got to load checked baggage. At WAS, they change engines.
-Hank
No, they add the engines at PHL. This seems to take amtrak close to 30 minutes.
Apparently, it depends on the train. I'll find out in 3 weeks, as I'm taking 97/98 to Savannah.
-Hank
They wait longer at each stop. Remember the long haul trains have to discharge passengers too. Some have sleeper cars and the attentends and conductors have to make sure everyone gets off. Passengers have too check their rooms too make sure everything is with them. Conductors may have to show people to their room. This is why it takes longer. Also I didnt mention pumping out the black water tanks and refilling the fresh water. May also need food service too. DIesels need to be fueled.
The trains are electric NORTH OF WASHINGTON
[(Bring back the old names) ...]
I agree. Amtrak plans to do away with all train names in the NEC once their Acela brand is fully functional. Passenger railroads have (mistakenly, IMHO) tried to pretend they are some kind of "Ground Airline" ever since PRR put up that clamshell and (wow!) computerized ticketing in the old Penn Station. The Acela marketing (well, it is in direct competition with the US Air & Delta Shuttles) is skewed in that direction too.
I SAY Amtrak ought to go out of their way to point up every single aspect of rail travel that *differs* from air travel, i.e. more comforable seats, gobs more leg-room, less susceptibility to weather delays and crappy air-traffic control equipment delays and too-many-planes-heading-south-right-now-so-we-have-to-sit-on-the-runway-for-45-minutes delays, etc.
Here are some possible slogans:
"There's no such thing as a traffic jam on Acela Express."
"Acela Express: Your knees are where they should be -- not in your ears."
"Acela Express: You board, you sit, you fly. Our runways are never backed-up."
"Acela Express: Snow problem? No problem."
This concludes my amateur marketing-executive-for-a-day exercise. Thank you. :-)
Well, I think that the names can be confusing to the non railfan. A traveler knows exactly where the NE Direct trains go. He may not have known where the Mayflower went.
At least thats what amtrak thinks.
Aside from this, I think you are right that amtrak should market the DIFFERENCE between them and the airlines.
Well I still consider my train 145 home from New Haven to be "The Patriot". That's what it was when I first took it in Septembre and that's what I will refer to it as forever.
Right on Mike
Although, on the other hand, about 3 years ago I was chatting with a conductor on a Keystone train, and he mentioned that he was working "the Broadway" the next day, but quickly corrected himself -- he actually meant the "Three Rivers," since the "Broadway Limited" had been discontinued for some time by then. Judging from the current style of service offered on that train, to refer to it as "Broadway [Ltd]" was a bit of an insult, don't you think?
Yes the old Broadway and 20th Century Limiteds, now those were trains
I still liked the old names, The Colonial, Congressional, Etc. Amtrak is a Railroad not a Airline, and they still name their Long Distance Trains, maybe if we petition them they will bring back the names.
No, I do see the pont to losing the individual train names for corridor service. They're not in the business of providing things for railfans to enjoy, they're in business to make money, and serve passengers. If 'branding' the service makes it more conveinient for the paying customer, there's no reason to stop them. Corridor service serves different passengers than the long distance trains; where most long-distance travelers are vacationers, corridor travelers are most likely business people, commuters, and students.
-Hank
Yes but over 90 years they had names for the trains, people kew the name and number of the train, now calling all the trains NorthEast Direct is more confusing. It use to be I was taking the Morning Congressional arriving at 12.00PM, Now I have to remember the number of the train, and on different days the train has different numbers. Check out their timetable.. Amtrak has to remember it is still a railroad not a airline
Amtrak may be a railroad and not an airline, but to make a profit and continue to exist, they have to think and market themselves as one. All the NE Direct trains make generally the same destinations. Some skip certain stations, but even with names you have to check the schedules to find out which ones when. And even named trains had different numbers when they ran on different schedules on different days. Railfans in general have to realize that there is little room for nostalgia in the business world. Using train numbers and a service name only makes them more like an airline, which uses flight numbers, which is their primary competition in the NE market.
-Hank
I got some more slogans:
Amtrak: Please bypass the check-in window, ignore security checkpoints, board in whatever order and sit where ever you want.
Amtrak: To order to catch your train please arrive at least 30 seconds before time of departure.
Amtrak: Our stations double as shopping malls.
Amtrak: Our crashes HAVE survivors.
Amtrak: Hijackers can't order our trains to Cuba.
"These are not Metroliners?"
Nope. The Silver Star (and its sisters, the Silver Palm and Silver Meteor) and the Crescent, along with the Carolinian (#79, right on the heels of Metroliner #101 out of NYP but 45 minutes behind it at WAS), the Vermonter, and the Twilight Shoreliner are all long-distance trains. Except for the Twilight Shoreliner (BOS-WAS), they all run either farther north (Vermonter WAS-St. Albans) or south (Carolinian NYP-Charlotte NC; Silver trains NYP-Miami; Crescent NYP-New Orleans) than the Northeast Corridor. And except for the all-daylight Vermonter and Carolinian, they have sleeper cars.
Therefore, they aren't Northeast Corridor trains, and will not become Acela trains. They are listed in the Northeast Timetable strictly for the sake of completeness ("What train just went past?"). Notice that there names are printed in italics to distinguish them from corridor trains.
The silver trains also function as NY-WAS trains, since the trains are 'board only' between the 2 stations.
-Hank
I tried buying a ticket between Wash and New York Last year on the Florida train and they would not sell me one, I had to use weither a MetroLiner or NE Direct, also tried to buy one between NY and DC Southbound, and the first place I could get off was Alexandria . No local passengers between NY and DC zt all
Then they've changed things since 3 years ago.
-Hank
Southbound the reason is that Philly is where Amtrak changes the head-end power on their long haul trains, also as howard says, it takes longer to load a LD train, making sure the 1st class passengers are 'checked in', loading baggage, etc....
Silver Service trains (Meteor, Star, Palm) change power in DC. They are usually hauled by two meatballs. The Carolinian also changes power in DC, when the first few cars are disconnected.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Silver Star/Silver Palm/Crescent trains change power at Philadelphia now. Usually each train is pulled by an E60 between NY and Philly.
One AEM-7 pulls Silver Meteor between NY and DC.
Chaohwa
I'll let you know in a month!
-Hank
I visit Union Staion four to five times a week. I also spend some time taking photos along the NEC. So I have had a lot of observations.
Chaohwa
Many of us are under the impression that trains continueing south along the NEC (specifically, via Baltimore) MUST be electric-powered due to the tunnels under Baltimore Harbor.
-Hank
The Pennsy (and by progression, Amtrak) NEVER had (or have) a tunnel under Baltimore's harbor. The Baltimore Tunnels (Union and B&P to us) are under city streets. The city was already developed when the Baltimore & Potomac Railroad built the tunnel south of Baltimore's Penn Station in the 1870's. In the 80's the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore Railroad, in conjuction with the Northern Central and the infant Western Maryland built the tunnels to the north. Both tunnels see electrics and diesels, and previously steam. B&P actually has a long-abandoned station at Pennsylvania Avenue. in 1875 that area was an upper crust ritzy section, so a station was provided. It was closed early in the 20th century (even before electrification) and nobody remembers it being used. There is no trace on the surface.
I was always under the impression that the tunnel went under water. Well, that shows me I should grab a map.
-Hank
However, Baltimore does allow diesels through the tunnels around Baltimore Penn Station. MARC diesels pull and push commuter trains regularly. Since two years ago, Amtrak has started to use P40s or P42s to haul long distance trains south of Philadelphia.
Chaohwa
As people have mentioned, these trains board slower. They also run slower. They tend to be heavy, with the sleepers, even before the M&E cars get added. And the E60s that haul them can only do 90 (?).
But losing an hour and a half before DC? That seems ridiculous. One of the things I find so discouraging on amtrak is that they NEVER seem in a hurry away from the NEC. Even though you are willing to be on the train 18 hours, that doesn't mean you would not prefer to make the trip in 15 hours. They seem to make no effort to keep things moving quickly!
It's not all Amtrak's fault. I recall meeting several freight trains last time I took 97/98 to Savannah. Outside of the NEC, Amtrak is truly at the mercy of the freight carriers.
-Hank
They are not at the mercy of freight trains when they spend 20 minutes in Harrisburg on the way west (no engine change), THEN stop to fuel the engine outside the station. They are not at the mercy of freight RRs when they add M&E cars AFTER the scheduled departure from Chicago.
Why should the freight RRs try to move them quicker when amtrak doesn't seem to care? What amtrak DOES care about, to a certain extent, is getting there a little on time. But the schedules are not designed to get you there quickly.
Maybe in the challenging quest to get to 3 hrs NY - BOS, the corporate culture will learn to care about this.
Between Boston and Wash Amrak owns the right of way, except the part they share with Metro North between New Rochelle and New Haven.
Between Boston and Wash Amrak owns the right of way, except the part they share with Metro North between New Rochelle and New Haven.
... which causes never-ending debates about whose trains get priority, which projects should get built, and who should pay. Although, I thought the portion within Massachusetts isn't owned by Amtrak either, is it?
I know there are railfans in Toronto on this forum and other railfans that know about Toronto and Rail in Canada. Well this week I'm planning a trip to Niagara Falls for about a week. (No "Slowly I Turn, Step by Step" jokes HEY PAUL) I'm thinking of taking a day trip to Toronto on one day. Although I'm driving to Niagara from Long Island I thought it might be nice to take the train to Toronto. I checked the website for Rail Via, the Canadian version of Amtrack and see an early morning train from the Canadian side of Niagara to Toronto & a late afternoon train back. Anyone know anything about the trip? Is Via reliable? Is it more scenic than driving? The fare seems reasonable, $23 Canadian money each way. Also anyone have any pointers on what to check out in Toronto? Doesn't have to be transit related.
Visit Ontario Place on the lake which is a large exhibition site (like a small, perennial World's Fair). Climb to the top of the CN Tower (still the world's tallest self-supporting structure), at the CN Tower you can walk on a glass floor over 400 meters (it's Canada, they use the sane system) above Toronto and a revolving restaurant (like the one at the Marriott Marquis). If you're a hockey fan, be sure not to miss the Hockey Hall of Fame downtown, it's connected to the underground concourse system.
Not in Toronto, but on the QEW between Niagara and Toronto is the miniature city of Tivoli, which has scale models of many world landmarks.
This is transit related, but don't miss the trolleys, they still look very much like traditional trolleys and not like light rail.
The subway is bland and utilitarian and can be skipped for a one day trip.
Via rail is so-so on the reliability factor in my experience - but that means they're WAY better than they were a few years ago.
Here are a few ideas for you in Toronto - too bad you're only here one day
While in Toronto riding the 510 Streetcar line from end to end is a railfan must. It takes you from Union Station, tunnels under Bay St then runs in a Median along Queen's Quay (and the waterfront) and up Spadina. It passes the Ferry Docks, the CN tower, Skydome and goes through Chinatown. Headways are 2 min 35 seconds in middays and rush hours and are very good even at off peak times.
The boat from the Ferry docks to the Toronto Islands is also a great way to spend part of your day. The boats are from the 1940s and have a great charm to them. The ride to the islands (about 25 minutes) and the Islands themselves provide spectacular views of the city.
The trip is $5 cdn (I know the Staten Island Ferry is free..). If you want to do this, take the 510 car to Queens Quay and Spadina and the docks are right there.
Another good ride and walk is to take the 501 (Queen) streetcar all the way to the Eastern end of the route and then walk back west along Queen for a few blocks. This area is known as the Beach (or the Beaches to those who don't live there). It is one of the most vibrant and interesting neighbourhoods in Toronto. You can also walk a couple blocks south from Queen st. and walk along the boardwalk. Very nice.
Another nice bit of Toronto is St. Clair Avenue West. Take the subway to St. Clair West station and then the 512 (St. Clair) car westbound to Oakwood Ave. Get off there and continue walking west. The neighbourhood is mixed but the stores are heavily Italian and the pedestrian traffic is heavy. Walk five streetcar stops to Landsdowne Ave. Just west of Landsdowne Ave on the south side of St. Clair is La Paloma - which has every flavour of Gelato known to man and it is very good. Right beside La Paloma is Landsdowne (once known as Earlscourt)loop where the 512 cars frequently short turn. Nothing like eating Gelato by a streetcar loop.
If you just want a nice streetcar ride, take the 505 Dundas or 504 King cars to their Eastern terminus at Broadview stn. The run up Broadview between Gerrard and Danforth is full of little jogs and turns and a great view of the Don Valley and the downtown skyline.
Thanks Eugenius and Rob H. I just realized that a racetrack I always wanted to go to, Woodbine Racetrack, is just outside of Toronto, so I just make 2 daytrips, one to go to the places you guys mentioned, and another to go to Woodbine.
The spanish and italian versions of TransiTALK is up and running. Now for you spanish and italian speaking bus fans can enjoy it in your own language! Soon to follow German, French and possibly Portugese!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
See it on eBay, Item #351004494: No reserve, minimum bid applies. Negative-original (not a copy, nor a scan, but printed from the actual camera negative), an 8x10 inch copyright-registered photograph of one of the most famous scenes in Brooklyn, New York. This extremely sharp and clear photo, taken November 6, 1947, just after the end of the baseball season, shows Brooklyn in its finest hour. As all Brooklyn Dodger fans are aware, the team was originally known as the “Trolley Dodgers” since the fans found it necessary to dodge the numerous trolley lines that operated in the not only in the entire Borough of Brooklyn but especially in the vicinity of Ebbets Field (opened April 9, 1913; closed September 24, 1957 after after the last game; demolished February 23, 1960; replaced by a huge housing project). Ironically, the last trolley operated in Brooklyn on October 31, 1956, but an electric trolleybus line (#48-Lorimer Street) continued to operate past the stadium until it too was replaced by diesel buses on July 27, 1960. This classic photo shows two of Brooklyn’s famous “Peter Witt” type trolleys southbound on Empire Boulevard, about to turn west onto Empire Boulevard; trolley #8346 is in the foreground. Note also the classic two-color cast iron traffic signal (the last of which was replaced in Far Rockaway, Queens about five years ago), the standard Brooklyn “Trolley Station” sign and Mel’s Expert Repairs, who also offered parking at a monthly rate of ten dollars. The photograph was taken by Robert Wasche, noted trolley and transportation photographer, who walked and photographed, generally block-by-block, each of Brooklyn’s trolley and elevated lines, starting upon his return from the U.S. Military in World War II, photographing a clean and dependable means of transportation never to be forgotten. The photograph is hand-printed and developed on Agfa archival glossy stock, and will last a lifetime under proper storage conditions. The labels and cross-hatch lines shown on the photograph below do not, of course, appear on the actual photograph. Here is an opportunity to possess an original photograph of one of brooklyn’s most classic and historic scenes. •For further information or additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you wouldn’t want to miss an item you were looking for. Over 25,000 items in all categories are to be listed in the future. •Buyer pays shipping/insurance.
Actually, Joe, the team was originally known by a variety
of informal nicknames, the two most popular being the Robins
and the Dodgers. The official team name was simply "Brooklyn"
into the 1920s, when they adopted the Dodgers nickname as an
official name and stitched it onto their uniforms.
Jeff, wasn't the team called "The Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers". Then later on the "trolley" was dropped and the rest became history??
Doug aka BMTman (not Barely Moving Trains, thank you verrrry much).
I did a bit of research on this for Autumn in New York at the
Shore Line Trolley Museum.
Here is a condensed history: The Brooklyn team that eventually
became the Dodgers was established in 1883. Their nickname
was "The Brooklyn Bridegrooms". It was in the late 1890s,
while playing at Eastern Park in East New York, that the team
picked up the nickname "Trolley Dodgers". The team also used
the nickname "Superbas" during that time. In 1914, after Wilbert
Robinson became manager, the team was popularly called "The Robins".
All this time, the official name of the team was simply "Brooklyn"
and the uniform was a plain "B". In 1938, in attempt to snazz
things up amidst poor play and poor attendance, the owners introduced
night baseball to Ebbets field and also adopted the long-time
nickname of "Dodgers" as the official team name, which was stitched
in blue thread on the uniforms.
In 1938 the Dodgers went to green lettered uniforms in an effort to change their pathetic luck, reputation, and record. It didn't work, but in 1939 Leo Durocher became manager and Larry MacPhail became operating officer of the team. With players like Whitlow Wyatt, Kirby Higbe, and Hugh Casey on the mound, and outstanding position players like Dolh Camilli, Billy Herman, Pee Wee Reese, Pete Reiser, and, my favorite, Dixie Walker, the Dodgers came of age and won the 1941 pennant. After the Second World War, they dominated the league before they left town.
Branch Rickey assumed the title of president in 1943, succeeding Larry MacPhail. He was generally credited with putting together the team which remained essentially intact from the late 40s until the move to LA.
IIRC, Dixie Walker was traded after making it clear he didn't like the idea of playing alongside Jackie Robinson.
No discussion of the Dodgers would be complete without mentioning the immortal "three man at third" gaffe. I don't remember who the batter was, but he ended up doubling into a double play (or was it triple into a triple play?). A few days later, a cabbie went by Ebbets Field and heard a great roar from the crowd. He hollered at a fan, "What's going on?", to which the fan replied, "The Dodgers have three men on base." "Which base?" was the classic comeback.
I can't resist, but that definitely deserves a rim shot.
While at work today, I came across a memorandum hanging in the dispatchers office at the World Trade Center. Dated June 1st, it states that no Redbirds are to be operated on the #1 line from north of 96th St. to south of Dyckman St. Do any of my fellow TA employees-or anyone else for that matter-know the reason for this restriction?
Oh well! I guess the mainline IRT Redbirds are going to have to travel to 207th St by Concourse Yard which inturn places them on the IND. We'll have to put R-68s at the ends of the train, unless they use the Revenue Collector stationed at Concourse. Interesting.
But the restriction still doesn't make sense. What makes the Redbirds different from the R-62As that currently run on the 1?
-Stef
..i saw a four-pack of redbirds scooting up the layup
track at 110th Street last week.. lights off..
later seen in layup entering 207th yard..
...also tend to see redbirds and r32's attached
together pulling out from the underground tunnel
which connects the 207th Yard to the A line..
1SF9
It seems that an electrical contractor put in conduit and boxes on the tunnel roof that interfere with the roof of only the Redbirds. I beleive a few redbirds sustained minor damage. This condition does not affect the 62A.
Oh, that's nice!
Wonder if it will affect the R-142, as eventually, equipment does get shifted around, and sometime in the future, the R-62s will be replaced .....
--Mark
I hope they will move the boxes by then.
Sounds like the reverse situation of the Steinway tunnels. Then, it was the R-62s which were affected. Turnabout is fair play.
Why can't the 62s run in the Steinway tunnel.
Now they can. But because of badly misaligned tracks in the Steinway Tunnels in the '80s, the R62s were not permitted in those tunnels. But now that they've fixed the problem tracks, R62s should have no problem running in the tunnels. Question, when will R62As begin to be shifted to the #7 line? And is it really going to happen this time? Because I've been hearing about R62As going to the 7 since the Spring of last 1999.
06/10/2000
[Question, when will R62As begin to be shifted to the #7 line? And is it really going to happen this time? Because I've been hearing about R62As going to the 7 since the Spring of last 1999.]
I would guess after the R-142's pass there tests and deliveries start. I sure they will withdraw them and "spruce" them up a bit so #7 riders won't think they'll be getting somebody's scratched windowed hand-me-downs!
Bill "Newkirk"
" . . . #7 riders won't think they'll be getting somebody's scratched windowed hand-me downs!"
When in reality, they will be. Tell them everything but the truth, right?
"Oh, yeah, the cars are new . . . 15 years young!"
They piss everybody off by trying to please everybody. The #7 riders have a train every few minutes. It's the service that counts, not the train. Some people are too much. They're line is served exclusively by old trains, it's racism. The minority neighborhoods get the crap trains while the yuppie areas get the good ones. Gotta please them. Look at the express buses. Gotta please the "affluent Staten Islanders" or they'll get in their cars and SUVs instead. A few years ago, I remember riding on hard-seat buses on the SI X-routes. Now they're using 45-ft. MCI's. For what? What was wrong with the suburban Novas and Orions? They have reclining seats, could've also put in luggage racks and reading lights like the NJT suburbans, but otherwise they're fine.
It's still nice to make a good impression, though. Make your service look attractive and reliable.
It's all in the mind . . . it's all one big mind game . . . they're playing with people's minds . . . it's the only explanation.
Look, I woke up at 6, I had to take my driving lesson at 7:30, and my brain is still sleeping.
Must be something that is affected by a whole 1/4" of height!
According to the plans shown in Greller's NYCTA subway car book, the R26/28/29/33's are 11'10-3/8" tall. The R62's are 11'10-5/8" tall. One quarter inch difference!!
According to the plans shown in Greller's NYCTA subway car book, the R26/28/29/33's are 11'10-3/8" tall. The R62's are 11'10-5/8" tall. One quarter inch difference!!
How can the tunnel roof affect the shorter R26/28/29/33's but not the taller R62's??
That's what I was getting at -- someone posted that there was something to do with tunnel clearance causing the restriction, and the dimensional drawings show that the Redbirds are 1/4 inch LESS in height.
Something I just noticed upon rechecking the drawings, perhaps this is the key.
The extreme width of the R29's is 8'10-3/16".
On the R62's it is 8'9-1/2". Maybe that extra 11/16" on the Redbirds has something to do with it. That still doesn't seem right, as ALl the cars tend to do a little side-swaying as they travel; I'd assume they'd ALL have the problem if the width was the case.
Why do the redbirds sway so much? You could see the side-swaying if you stand at a platform edge and look at a approching train. The rest of the fleet doesn't seem to do that.
R-46's sway about the same.
It's a combination of weight and age. The springs are worn, and likely so are the truck bolsters. (is that the right part?)
Oh, Local trains tend to lean away from the platfom. Know why?
-Hank
why do they lean away?
Watch the people. When they get on, the the car is SRO, people will lean against the side where the doors are less likely to open. Or, in the case of the GCT-TS Shuttle, the side that the doors WILL open on, so they can be first out.
-Hank
They are top heavier than OEM due to the overhead A/C blowers running on their original trucking. Another factor may be that a light train without the weight of passengers may be a little more unstable. I'm wondering why all work trains equipped with turtleback roofing cars aren't restricted either. If an R33 can damage tunnel walls, why not the signal dolly, collectors or just a rider car? Is there something the TA forgot or are they printing bulletins just to look for reactions?
Robin:
Can the R-62s run in the "Steinway" tunnel?
BMTJeff
I think they already did run some R62's on he #7 when the R62's were fairly new.
Sure Jeff, there would be no problem. The 62A's will be on the #7,they will keep some as single units, for the eleventh car.
Thanks for the info...we had a similar problem on 8th Av. a few months ago. They installed brackets to support conduit above 2TK at 34th St. When the G.O. finished and the track was placed back in service, the brackets soon came down!
So, I guess those token booths are running out of tokens and Metrocards, but are filling up with tons of money since the revenue collectors can't get through.
A lot of stations used armored trucks nowadays.
Saturday night I was at the club and while "Bodyrock" by Moby (my favorite artist) was playing, and I thought about what subway ridership is per capita. The girl I was freak dancing with wasn't really intrested in discussing this, so I decided to discuss it here on good ol' Subtalk.
I figure the way you can measure ridership per capitas is by divding # of riders/# of stations. Another way could be # of riders/# of route miles. Yet another way is # of riders over/population of service area. I deciced the easiest one was the first one, so I went to the APTA web site and found ridership stats and station info for the major cities of the country. Here's what I found, starting the hightest per captia:
..........riders per station......(riders in 1999/stations)
New York:.....3,876,526.............(1,814,214,500/468)
DC:...........2,698,097.............(210,451,600/78)
San Fran:.....2,304,471.............(89,874,400/39)
Atlanta:......2,226,513.............(81,630,500/39)
Boston:.......1,745,027.............(127,387,000/73)
LA:...........1,182,253.............(15,369,300/13)
Chicago:......1,004,841.............(141,682,700/141)
Balitmore:....957,242...............(13,401,400/14)
Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)
Could the results of this mean that NY has the most crowded subway, and Philly has the least crowded? Whaddya think?
I think it's rather misleading... Number of riders in relation to the population of the service area would be a much better indicator.
In your chart, Atlanta ranks several places above Chicago although it's common knowledge that the CTA has much higher ridership per capita than MARTA. The reason Atlanta ranks higher on your list is that most MARTA station are large hub stations serving many bus lines and mostly with extensive parking facilities. In Chicago, most CTA stations are smaller neighborhood stations, even though there are many more stations and they're mostly placed fairly close together.
I don't think anybody would doubt that NYC would have the highest ridership per capita no matter which way you cut it, but saying that LA has higher ridership per capita than Chicago or Philly seems a bit of a stretch. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
This is ridership per station, not ridership per capita, but it is still interesting. Kind of puts all those discussions (by me among others) about too many NYC stations too close together in a different perspective, doesn't it?
The numbers still look high. Over 3 million fares per year per avg station??
(Three million per station looks high)
That's only 8,200 per day on average. On weekdays, the Manhattan stations surely get far more. This offsets the Franklin Ave shuttle on a sunday.
Sorry Rob, but your figures are just too simple. You need to factor in hours of operation since some of those lines are not open 24 hours. If you are using riders per station you skew toward lines that move long distances with few stations which are the newer systems intended to use surface transit feeders. Riders per station or riders per track mile does not give any indication of riders per capita.
The only thing that measures riders per capita is riders per population of service area. Obviously determining the service area can be subject to interpretation also. Do you include everyone who can reach a park and ride? Everyone within range of connecting surface transportation? Or just those within walking distance of the line?
The most efficient system would be the one with the highest ridership per train unit. i.e. number of riders divided by the number of trains in a given time period such as a month. The time period has to be long enough to take into account rush hours and non-work days.
[Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)]
Philadelphia's SEPTA subways have more than 13 stations.
And Philadelphia must have more than 10 million rides per year. That is about 30000 per day, which cannot at all be right. I'd say it's about 10 times that number, and with 54 stations on the MFSE and BSS, 9 on the Subway-Surface, and 13 on PATCO.
Baltimore's must the lightest by far, with only four (being charitable) downtown stations (really only 2), a limited service area and 8-minute service during rush hour, no service on Sunday, and nearly no need for the line since most people north of Pennsylvania Ave./North Avenue Station own a car and Baltimore traffic is not that bad. Maybe Miami beats it out for non-use though, with its 15-minute service during most of the day and weekends. Interestingly they are twins physically and as to their use.
[Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)]
Philadelphia's SEPTA subways have more than 13 stations. /Even PATCO itself has 14.
Whenever a discussion arises of the Second Avenue Subway and lack thereof, it is invariably mentioned that New York has lost it's zeal and it's ability to commit to large scale public works projects. But never is mentioned the Third Water Tunnel. The water tunnel is supposed to be the largest single public works project in the city, ever.
If they can commit to spending fifty years and 24 lives (so far) to building a tunnel 350-850 feet below the surface from White Plains to Red Hook, why can't they build a simple subway line under Second Avenue from 125th to even 63rd Street?
And the water tunnel started construction in 1970, it was not stopped for the fiscal crisis.
The water tunnel is inevitable. Currently they have no way of doing any repairs to the others and what I've heard are in dire need of it.
Arti
The water tunnel is NOT inevitable. NO ONE has a way to do repairs on their aquaducts. If one fails, there will be a "crisis," and the FEDERAL government will tax us all to truck in bottled water for ten years until a replacement is built. By being responsible, once again, New York is being had.
The reason the water tunnel construction has continued is that the water and sewer system has its own income sources that the politicians have not been able to raid (the Mayor tried it). It is funded by water and sewer bills.
In contrast, New York's gas, motor vehicle sales, and parking taxes, its tolls, it's dedicated transit taxes, and in the future perhaps even its fares are diverted through subterfuge (ie. put the Thruway and MTA in debt, which toll and farepayers have to repay, and divert the money).
Even if it means higher fares, tolls and dedicated taxes, I believe the transporation system needs to be made fiscally independent.
Isn't the plan to do some maintenance on the 2 old tunnels after the 3rd is completed?
Arti
(Isn't the plan to do some maintenance on the 2 old tunnels after the 3rd is completed?)
Well, they had to come up with some kind of reason for spending all the money. But other water systems don't shut down their aquaducts for inspection as far as I know. The third water tunnel was designed before anyone considered water conservation as an option. Since then, a ban on water-cooled AC and low-flow toilets and faucets have cut down demand -- a good thing, since even if we had the water, we don't have sewage treatment capacity.
The only way this will pay is if Long Island's ground water goes bad, the Island somehow gets approval to build its own upstate reseviors, and it pays the city for for part of the capacity in the new aquaduct.
Considering the amount of time it takes to build a water tunnel, constructing it is a good idea. Perhaps the demand will be there by 2020, because if the demand does arise, it certainly won't be an option to spend 50 years to build another tunnel as the city becomes drier.
(Considering the amount of time it takes to build a water tunnel, constructing it is a good idea. Perhaps the demand will be there
by 2020, because if the demand does arise, it certainly won't be an option to spend 50 years to build another tunnel as the city
becomes drier.)
Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities.
The city has to build WT3 before they can look at WT1 & WT2. The city doesn't even know if they can ever properly shut down 1 & 2 in order to inspect and rehabilitate them. Even Mayor Beame realized how important the water tunnels are, or more likely someone told him how important they are. There are also plans for a WT4.
[Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities.]
For that matter, what about the Hudson River Skimming Project? Every time there's a drought, the City has to scramble. And the way things are going, they may have to build that vastly expensive filtration plant.
(And the way things are going, they may have to build
that vastly expensive filtration plant.)
That's a given. The environmentalists want lots of environmental spending in the watershed, but they also want the filtration plant. The plan is only good for one administration, and putting off the massive cost and increase in water bills -- at a cost in billions more in spending -- is its main purpose.
Don't know about that, being from Tallinn Estonia, we had a water filtration plant (population density about 10p per sq. mile.) Soviets weren't exactly worried about the public health neither were there any interests in spending money. The fact that there is no filtration here worries me and has patterned my "drinking habits"
Arti
[Don't know about that, being from Tallinn Estonia, we had a water filtration plant (population density about 10p per sq. mile.) Soviets weren't exactly worried about the public health neither were there any interests in spending money. The fact that there is no filtration here worries me and has patterned my "drinking habits"
Arti]
New York has traditionally had excellent water. The problem is that that's changing as there's new development in the watershed. For now, you're fine using a home water filter, which you should use anyway because of lead that leaches from the pipes. Even without, NYC's water is much better than it is in most of the country--just look at the recent nationwide crackdown on arsenic levels.
[For now, you're fine using a home water filter, which you should use anyway because of lead that leaches from the pipes. ]
Sure do! It just suprises me that there is no filtration. Did some study, I was wrong filtration in Tallinn is since 1925.
Arti
What's the Hudson River Skimming Project?
(What's the Hudson River Skimming Project?)
I'm not sure, but I believe this involves opening the Hudson River water plant in Dutchess County, which takes water off the top since PCBs are at the bottom. The water isn't considered good enough, and is only used in drought emergencies.
The skimming project is the Army Corps of Engineer's longstanding recommendation for increasing the City's water supply. So far the City has ignored it, preferring to rely instead on conservation measures such as metering (read: putting the crisis off till the next drought).
What ever happened to impounding another river?
Assuming another river is impounded, where would it be? It seems we'd have to go as far north as the Adirondacks. The Susquehanna River is pretty close to the edge of the watershed, but it looks too developed.
It's also pretty much used up, with the Conowingo Dam and the Baltimore/Harford County water tunnel drawing water. Harford uses it, we do only in cases of drought (like last summer). There's already a hue & cry about that, and we've has the rights since 1960.
When we started using Susquehanna water last summer, people claimed that the water tasted funny, which was pretty good considering the mix was 65% water from the Loch Raven\Liberty reservoirs and 35% Susquehanna water, and all of it went through the Montebello and Ashburton filtration plants. I didn't notice any difference in taste, and neither did anybody I know.
Don't know, haven't heard anything on it.
amen
avid
[Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities. ]
Well, a human can't survive 48 h without water I can survive a weekend without transit. I'll bet a lot of others can too.
Arti
The water system provides for a lot of redundancy. For example, the city has water from the original Croton system, a Long Island style groundwater system (sans water tower) in parts of SE Queens and the newer Catskill/Delaware water system. In 1999 for some time, the Croton System and Groundwater system were closed and Catskill-Delaware provided the city's ENTIRE water supply. And Water Tunnel 3 will bring more C-D water into the city. The city can abandon Croton, yet they still will build a treatment plant to allow it to be there.
The Water system seems to be the only responsible, foresighted system still in New York.
They should extend it down 2nd Avenue and run subs in it.
This is what somebody at my NYC subway club @ yahoo posted.
This is what I think the NYC Subways should look like. I am only including those lines added or changed.
C-8 Ave Local/NJ Express from Rockaway Townsquare Mall.
G-to Court Square.
K-8 or 6 Av/NJ local same NJ terminal as C to Coney Island via Culver or World Trade Center.
7-Steinway Street Local-Stops at Queensboro Plaza.
M-to Bay Ridge 95 Street.
Q-Broadway Express,local to Flushing.
R-to Whitehall Street.
V-63 Street/6 Av Local to Church Av. or Bay Ridge 95 Street.
Z-Runs All Times from Broad Street
Culver Shuttle from 36 Street to Kings Highway.
Times Square Shuttle removed.
8-IRT Crosstown Local:All Stops from Brooklyn Bridge to Lenox Terminal.
Is this crazy or what?!?!?!?!
"Broadway/7 Avenue/Woodlawn/Flushing/Culver Jorge" Catayi
Only two of them are realistic. M to 95th St. b/c there aren't enough trains there. G to Court Square which is going to happen(already happening at nights...I think)
Found on the sidewalk one new Subway Series 2000 metrocard. It was a "Mike Hampton" card.
Where are the cards on-line? The website says "coming soon".
Typical NYC fashion.
Joe C.
06/06/2000
[Found on the sidewalk one new Subway Series 2000 metrocard. It was a "Mike Hampton" card.]
Also available from MVM's are the Rey Ordonez, Armando Brenitez and Mike Piazza. With Mike Hampton that's four in a series. Don't which MVM's have them but they'll disappear fast!
These are also availabkle on line at Citysearch. I was told there are posters in subway cars advertising them, but I haven't seen any yet.
OKAY, now my question. Are there four Yankee Metrocards coming out since this is a subway series?
Bill "Newkirk"
I am told there will be 2 versions of the cards.
One set with the MasterCard logo (available in the MVM's) and one set without (the logo) which are supposed to be available at the Tranist Museum Stores on Wednesday 6/7.
Thanks Allan. Will certainly check it out. As of now OnLine still doesn't have them. Can't believe it. I've found two on the sidewalk in two days. In my neighborhood in the Bronx. Of course, I buy a card from the MVM and get a plain vanilla.
Joe C.
The cards are now sold at the TA Nuseum. I got them at lunchtime.
They all have the master card logo on them too.
The Rey Ordonez card is $30.00 for $33.00 value.
The Mike Piazza card is $17.00 for 7 day unltd.
The Mike Hampton card is $15.00; The Armando Benitez card is $63.00 for 30 day unltd.
Joe C.
On Sunday, August 27, 2000, A special excursion train consisting of soon to be retired R33s/R36 Flushing line cars will operate over the IND and BMT divisions of New York City Transit. As a special treat, Observation car F116 will be part of the consist, and will be kept on the rear of the train. This will be a unique opportunity to ride and or photogaph NYCT's own "Private car" as it travels throughout the system. Seating on the observation car will be an extra fare, first come, first served basis and will be limited to the capacity of the car. This excursion is being sponsored by Subdivision C, Department of Subways, New York City Transit, To benefit the march of dimes.
THE ROUTE:
The special train will leave the 57th Streea and 7th Avenue station on the Broadway BMT (N and R lines) at 10:30 AM on Sunday, August 27, 2000. The trip itinerary currently includes the West End, Culver, Brighton and Jamaica BMT lines, The Queens IND and will include a trip over the Williamsburg Bridge, but may vary if the need arises. Be sure to join us for a memorable tip benefiting a worthwile charity.
Tickets are available by mail from:
NYCT Subdivision C - M.O.D. Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
Bronx, NY 10461
Make all checks and money orders payable to: March of Dimes. Tickest bought on day of trip will be $5.00 extra.
.............................................
Prices:
Observation car F116 $50.00 each
Regular Adult $30.00 each
Childern (Up to age 14) $20.00 each
Send your Name, Address and Phone Number with payment.
This should be an interesting excursion. You figure that they'll have a full train available so there will be more than enough seats for everyone. Tack an R-33 single at each end of the train, have R-36s in the middle, and oh yes, let's not forget the Observation Car. I assume you mean the flat car with a bus carbody mounted on it.
But wait - if you put it at the end of the train, and keep it there, then the excursion train going to have to run through the yards and run around the car if they want to keep it at the end. Then again, going through Coney Island, Jamaica, or ENY Yards, you'll have the loop to turn the entire train around. But if you head to the end of the line, this becomes more problematic becomes the observation car remains at the end of the consist, but now is in front of the Train Operator's operatung position. How do they deal with this? Stay tuned....
-Stef
How about Bye, bye, (Red)Birdie as the theme song?:-)
Just my luck - another missed Farewell Fantrip. Such is life...
Mark, I see you picked up the same flyer that I did at the Model show on Saturday ... am wondering if the Train Dude has anything to do with this. Now if Bill or Erick were assigned to the train it would almost be part of Dave's August celebration of our favorite Web site !
If it has to do yard moves to turn, as Stef suggestes then it will be much more then just a Red Bird ride. Out-of-towners this is a must do for you, but sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.
BTW, I can't make this one as I'll be in NH for my annual AAA ball game 3 day weekend with some non-SubTalkers ... who I'll probally be taking for a ride since we'll be in the neighborhood ... Ding Ding
Mr t__:^)
sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.
Huh?
--Mark
[sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.]
Huh?
--Mark
Mark, et. al., Which out-of-town SubTalker would need a reservation for his Tripod at the Storm Window on this Red Bird trip ... Oh that one !!!
Mr t__;-)
........QUESTION.......all of the redbirds be gone by this october ??......august is too soon for me ..........
as far as the tripod joke I can take it .........yes this one !!!!!.........me ..........
AFAIK, there will still be Redbirds plying the rails this fall. I think they're just being proactive with this farewell trip.
Or dare I say Early Birds?
Rim shot!
...........Slam dunk .....!!!!.......I am saving my money if I have to ride the DOG ...( greyhound to nyc this october )...........
to Launch PROJECT-REDBIRD...!!!!..And capture all of the last Classic NYC subway cars ....TAKE-THOSE-PICTURES-NOW...!!
Hope you got a chuckle from my Tripod joke, no mallice intended.
Think some of the Red Birds will be around for a while, but this is going to be one of those once in a lifetime trips, especially for you out-of-towners. I've had the good fortune of 11 years riding the 7th Ave and now being able to use the Flushing line to enter the system. The run from Main Street to Times Sq. is always an enjoyable one for me going against the rush so the Storm Window is always available.
Mr t__:^)
...you tripod joke didnt bother at all ,nice light good chuckes and good taste jokes is fine and allright with me ....
Like the joke about my ""MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER"" for example .The number # 7 vidieo is the greatest in my collection
when the REDBIRDS go down finally and the railfan storm door window is gone these vidieos will be priceless.....
By that time i will losad them into DVD video format so they will be preserved foerver DVD recorders are coming soon..
Keep on making good clean jokes about tripods & vidieo cameras pressed up against storm windows - railfan window etc.. I dont mind this at all ..
I shot 6 to eight hours on my beloved flushing # 7 line day and night !! the vidieo sells for only $ 20.oo ............
...you tripod joke didnt bother at all ,nice light good chuckes and good taste jokes is fine and allright with me ....
Like the joke about my ""MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER"" for example .The number # 7 vidieo is the greatest in my collection
when the REDBIRDS go down finally and the railfan storm door window is gone these vidieos will be priceless.....
By that time i will load them into DVD video format so they will be preserved foerver DVD recorders are coming soon..
Keep on making good clean jokes about tripods & vidieo cameras pressed up against storm windows - railfan window etc.. I dont mind this at all ..
I shot 6 to eight hours on my beloved flushing # 7 line day and night !! the vidieo sells for only $ 20.oo ............
(slap on the head) Duh!
Hopefully I'll be attending.
Can someone describe to me what the observation car is? I don't think I've ever seen one.
--Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=125997
Here is the link, it was pictured yesterday!
Yep - just saw it ... thanks Karl!
--Mark
Can you imagine that coming into a station on the front of a train, with all of those lights lit. It would probably give the impression of some type of a subway nightmare!
Someone would think that it's a train from the SUV division debated recently on this site :)
--Mark
Yeah, complete with driving lights, fog lights, the works.:-)
Last night as I passed the Melvern graduation event parked between the white & black limos was a 50' Hummer limo ... can you picture it on the front of train ? With some steel wheels under it, it would be almost high enough for the doors to open on a platform.
Mr t__:^)
Mark: The observation car is R-20 X-116 built by the Magor Car Company in 1957-58. It was fitted with a bus body and for many years was used for the annual fire department inspections of the subway system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's it. What a car. It infrequently visits the IRT. But in 1991, it operated on the IRT with R-33s 9102-03, 9106-07, 9150-51, and 9158-59. I always thought it was an odd car, but never knew exactly what it was for. Perhaps, it should be declared a Museum Piece for what is it's uniqueness as a car. Buses mounted on flat cars? It's unheard of.
-Stef
(As a special treat, Observation car F116 will be part of
the consist, and will be kept on the rear of the train).
What is that?
Unfortunately, I will be camping upstate on that day. If the observation car is what it sounds like, and the TA had two or three in a train, I'd bet they could run an excursion every Sat/Sunday and make money. 57th and 7th is right in the heart of the hotels, which alone could fill the train with tourists.
Unless there is more than one, this is a picture of car F116:
That's it! The one and only.
Not bad, but I'd still like to see the top ripped off a train of excess Redbirds, and seats installed, for use as an open air excursion train. The BMT southern division, the Flushing line, the Jamaica El, and Bronx els would be possible tour routes.
Yes there are liability issues, but heck Disney seems to be able to operate its rides with no problem. You'd just situate the cars far enough away from the edge to make it impossible to reach out and touch something you shouldn't accidently, and put straps on the seats. Just run them for special excusion trips, at $5.00 per ride, complete with recorded descriptions of the lines and stations. Subway as theme park!
The Disney Corporation is self insured (handled by the famous Llyods of London), not to mention net worth in the area of $85 Billion (with a 'B') dollars.
-Hank
Some people ALREADY think that riding the NYC Subway is an adventure.
And I'm NOT just talking about the railfans :)
--Mark
Wouldn't that be something to see rumbling into a subway station, especially with all of those lights lit?
Geez .. they took a BlueBird bus and stuck an IRT frame underneath it!!
--Mark
That's so they could call it a Yellow Bird with Blue B.....
A Mack, actually.
David
Yikes. Can you imagine what an RTS Car Body would look like mounted to a flat car?
-Stef
I think it would look quite a bit like a Winnebage with wings and a hyper-active drive.
Or maybe an RTL-II Turboliner.
-Hank :)
Oh dear! I don't think I can scrape up the money in time to get over. Does anyone know if any more farewell trips are planned or are likly to take place ? I must come over and say goodbye to the Redbirds
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon, Stay tuned to this Bat Channel as I'm sure a few will still be around. Some have said that their last stand will be on the Flushing line, if so that will still be a nice way to bid them farewell if you can make it later this year. I'ld be happy to do a "Field Trip" with a few of you who miss the August trip.
Mr t__:^)
WOW a ride on the INT...
Hey mark, is the typo the 'T' or the 'N'?
-Hank
If you read his narrative, you will see that the typo is the "T". It should be "D" as in IND.
The cynic in me says this: first, there has to be a point in the trip where the train has to change direction as you cannot operate from the F116 car. If it goes BMT Jamaica line, they have to flag all the way to or from ENY! It can go Queens IND to Continental and loop back around thru Jamaica Yard. Going to Parsons E or 179 F would, again, necessitate another flagging move. No problem with the Stillwell lines since you can go from the Brighton to the Sea Beach, for example with no problems. Secondly, with all the GO's going on every weekend, it would be tough to really plan a itenerary too far in advance.
The F116 car needs to be placed other than the head end. Of course you could run the entire train around it in a yard that has no loop, or some other place of convenience.
Surely it might be possible to run the train without changing ends? Go through Coney Island twice to cover the Brighton, West End, and Culver Lines. The Jamaica Line? If they're lucky they can get out to ENY, loop around, and go back over the Bridge. The Queens IND, you can go as far as Jamaica Yard. With what they have in mind, it seems doubtful that they'll get to the end of a line.
-Stef
Is it possible to run the train without changing ends?
What about this for a scenario: 1)Train is readied for service at Corona Yard. Wrong rail through upper level Queensboro Plaza without changing ends and Proceed to 57th St and 7th Av on the Bway Line. 2)57th St and 7th Av to Coney Island Yard via the Brighton Line. 3)Coney Island Yard to Jamiaca Yard via Stillwell Terminal, Avenue X approach, and Culver Lines (Loop through Stillwell Av Terminal). 4)Jamaica Yard to ENY Yard via Chrystie St connection (Loop Jamiaca Yard). 5)ENY Yard to Stillwell Av via Montague St Tunnel and West End Lines (Loop ENY Yard). 6) Stillwell Av to 57th St and 7th Av via Brighton Line (Loop through Terminal). 7)Discharge and return to Corona Yard.
How does that sound?
-Stef
If a diesel (prehaps one of the SBK units) is used on one end of the F116, then the trip could go over some truly interesting trackage...hint, hint ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe they need a former NY & Atlantic engineer to show them how to put the first car last. But I'll bet most of the trips are planned to turn in a yard with a loop.
Mr t__:^)
Do the subway tunnels still home and shelter a group of homeless people or has the NYPD homeless division eradicated this problem?
Sept 2 - Orange Empire Railway Museum
Sept 2 - Evening Slide show
Sept 3 - Los Angles Metro System, Metro System Control Center, Green line shop.
Sept 3 - Evening Annual Banquet
Sept 4 - San Diego via Amtrak
Full package of tours $150.00
Headquarters Hyatt Regency at 711 Hope Street @ $89 single/double per night
Deadline 15 Jul 2000
Contact
ERA
PO Box 3323
NYC, NY 10163-3323
....Nice.!!! Can I only buy the green red & blue lines metro center only ?? the orange empire is free except the
nice $ 6 .00 train rides .........I dont need lodging I live in pasadena ...........
Salaam,
Write to the address- ask for information about the convention. They'll send a flyer and order form for all the events "a la carte". You can buy the individual tours separately based on what interests you and skip the banquet if you like. Each one is something like $25 or $35. I had a flyer with the info but threw it away since I will be in England/Wales that weekend.
-Dave
p.s. you should also ask them to send you info about becoming an ERA member. I am not positive if you need to be a member to go to the convention events.
.........I will do just that !!!! thank you .....I am also joining the orange empire museum soon .........
Yes, ERA membership is required. But it's not terribly expensive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Starting today TA Museum NON members like me can call for these trips from Columbis Circle to Coney Island and back.
I did, they still have seats available so call N-O-W or miss the train ... 718-243-8601 (10 AM to 4 PM).
BTW on my wall is the June page from Bill Newkirt's calendar and it's a D-Type !
Mr t__:^)
Looking at it now, 2 gone but not forgotten NY Institutions, A D Triplex and Pan AM
Oh yes ... spend 15 years of my youth at JFK and saw a lot of this old World, but wasn't a railfan then so didn't see much RxRs :-(
Mr t
Is that the photo from 1949 on the Astoria line?
[Is that the photo from 1949 on the Astoria line? ]
Caption says May 1964
Mr t__:^)
Oops, wrong photo. The one you're referring to must be the one at Queensboro Plaza with the West End express, signed up as a 3.
That was in the 1999 calendar.
The June 2000 calendar "pin up" train is a D-type signed as "3 Queens Plaza", taken 1964.
--Mark
That's right. I got my calendars confused.
I just found out that the first D-Type on BMT property was delivered July 23rd, 1925! The last D-Types were retired exactly 40 years later, to the day. How often does THAT happen?
--Mark
Not very often, to say the least. It's more than likely pure coincidence. July 23, 1965 fell on Friday; we left the city for home that morning and returned to South Bend the following day. It's true the pilot units arrived in 1925 and were subsequently fitted with side sign boxes. The first production units arrived in 1927, the rest in 1928. It's safe to say the Triplexes would have had a legitimate shot at surpassing the Gibbs Hi-Vs in terms of longevity, had they been kept.
So I'm sure everyone's signed up for a trip already. I'm going on the first (6/18). A reporter from the New York Times might also be there covering the "subway buff" aspect...
-dave
Looking forward to meeting you.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm signed up for the third trip on 7/23. (The weather will be the best that day :-)
I'm a question mark at this point. It's possible I may assist the Transit Museum during the excursion. That's unclear right now. If I do, I'll be a tall gentlemen wearing an orange TA vest.
-Stef
Stef, Go for it ! We're going to get you into the operation side one way or the other ... Ding Ding ... sorry Honk Honk.
Mr t__:^)
Is it sold out or can I do like I did last time and just show up...
I may try for the July 9 trip.
wayne
I'll be on all three.
I just sent in my $25.00 check for the June 18 trip. 'Mark' said I should get the ticket in the mail over the weekend. Hope to see you and possibly other Subtalkers on board.
That's my Father's Day present to myself. Beats having to barbecue.
Anybody know when service was restored from Jamaica Center?
Trains could not enter or leave the station at around 9AM due to a switch problem.
What did they do?
Arti
Does anyone know when the Acela Express will be running on Jun 12th and 17th?
Thanks, in advance.
There are station names that just crack up children and other new riders when they hear them, and every system has them. My nominations for funny station names, in no particular order other than alphabetizing the cities:
Boston: Wonderland, Alewife, Braintree, and Ruggles. State/Citizens Bank, because of the concept of a sponsored station and the reductio ad absurdum implications ("This station sponsored by your local Ford dealers" followed by unbearable elevator music to drive away passengers). As a terminal station, and thus the sign on the end of Blue Line trains, Wonderland is especially funny (I'm taking the train to Wonderland!)
Baltimore: Timonium, because it sounds like a diarrhea remedy. Point of Rocks on the MARC is vaguely amusing.
Chicago: Grand. Doesn't sound so funny, does it? But the recorded voice that announces stops in a very comprehensible but absolutely monotone voice calls out Grand (both the Red and Blue stops) as "This is Grand". Well, it's nice and all, but I wouldn't say it was grand. :^) "Chicago is next" and "This is Chicago" (three different stations, Red, Brown/Purple, and Blue) also get some laughs from the tourists.
New York City: The largest transit system in the U.S. is bound to have its share of funny names. Fresh Kills and New Dorp on the SIRT. Babylon ("Is that scantily clad woman leaning against the wall of the commuter station who I think she is?"), Hicksville, Glen Head, and Speonk on the LIRR. Mamaroneck and Cos Cob on the M-N. Flushing and Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the subway.
Philadelphia: War Minister, oops, I mean Warminster. :^)
Washington: Not a real guffaw-inducer, but mildly amusing, is East Falls Church, followed immediately and inevitably by West Falls Church. The ever-confusing triad of Metro Center, Federal Triangle, and Federal Center (brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department, I'm sure). Backlick Road on the VRE Manassas Line. Come to think of it, Manassas on the VRE Manassas Line. :^)
Any more nominations?
On the LIRR, I'll contribute "Ronkonoma." Also, I once told a tourist who asked me for directions on the LIRR to take such-and-such a train, and "Change at Jamaica." He told me he thought that trains couldn't travel over water... and wasn't the Carribean a bit far?
Here in Boston, additions include Waban (not to be confused with Woburn) and Woburn (not to be confused with Waban). Of course,
the official station stop name for Woburn is "Mishawum." [Believe it or not, Mishawum is an indian word for "Great Neck"! And
I though Great Neck was East Egg, right Gatsby fans?] Coming soon on the MBTA Lowell Commuter Rail Line is "Metro North."
Not to be confused with "Metro North."
You'd expect some weird names in Massachusettes, home of Lake Chagagagamanshagagagchubunagungamaug, near Webster and the Rhode Island border. I'm sure you'll forgive me if I spelled it wrong.
Beats me if it's spelled wrong! But of course in Massachusetts we also have Braintree (both a subway and commuter rail station), Athol (pronounced ATH-ole, if you please!) and Belchertown. And the Red Line stops at North Quincy (pronounced Quin-zee), Quincy Adams, and Quincy Center. A favorite of many, also on the Red Line, is JFK/UMass. Some have been known to leave out a strategically placed "M" when saying it...
[But of course in Massachusetts we also have Athol (pronounced ATH-ole, if you please!)]
I didn't know you had a lisp.
LOL
I also think Todd meant to say "NAHTH Quin-zee":-)
That sounds just supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
(That sounds just supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!)
It's an indian name. I think it means terriorial meeting place at the waters, or something. I was there in the 1970s. Perhaps they've shortened the name by now.
I heard that the (almost) literal translation of the name is "You fish on your side, we fish on our side and no one fishes in the middle."
For subway stations with unusual names, there's always Baltimore's Mondawmin.
And the Famous Anaheim Azuza and Cugumona(Spelling wrong) Funny thing was they were all old Santa Fe Stations, but Anaheim was on the San Diego Branch,and the other 2 were on the Pasadena Line, and you could not get from one to anoher unless you came from Anaheim via LA
And somewhere in Wales, there is the quaint little village of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysiliogogogoch; not sure if there's a train station there.
wayne
The first time that I rode Baltimore's Metro, I was rather surprised to hear Mondawmin, and also Shot Tower.
How about Shepherd's Bush on the London Central LIne? I kid you not.I'm sure it isn't only us rednecks that would get a laugh out of that!
We could really have a field day if some of these towns in Pennsylvania had subway stations. Can you just imagine stations named Paradise, Bird in Hand or Blue Ball?
And of course, there's INTERCOURSE...
as well as fun-sounding places like:
JIM THORPE (Mauch Chunk)
YOE (your mama!)
FISHS EDDY (wasn't he a band leader in the '40s?)
NANTY GLO (sounds like a floor wax)
EIGHTY FOUR (their average age?)
PUNXSUTAWNEY
LEETONIA
WAWA
ONO (next to the town of YOKO)
Again, not sure if all of these have train stations (probably not) but these sure sound like a bunch of fun places. Where do they get these names from, anyway?
wayne
Carabonga, Buffalo Bob!!
Also, NOBODY mentioned one of Philadelphia's winners for oddball station names - Tulpehocken!!
Mythical PA railroad: The Consahocken, Tulpehocken and Wissahicken Rail Road Company.
..........like the station named ""SOUTH BERRY"".......????.....!!!!
I'm really sorry I had to fight with you all this time. I never knew you REALLY had a mental disability
You ain't just whistling Dixie. Why do you think we labled him as "The Man with No Brain".
I thought he was just a fool, I didn't think he had severe problems that we shouldn't make fun of.
I mean not only does he think it's called South Berry beyond all logical reasons, he won't change his mind regardless of what he's told. He looks like 100% Creedmoor/Ward's Island material.
... run by the "Hock and a Chineck" division of the holding company ....
--Mark
I've been in most every one except Wawa, which I missed somehow. I really thought that was the name of a convienance store in the Philly area.
Punxsutawney is a really nice little town, I get to spend a few days there every July because of a craft show. I have not found the train station yet, but there is a railroad that goes through the town.
I'll bet that you didn't know that Oklahoma was in Pennsylvania too!
Interesting that Paradise PA is in the same area as Intercourse. Good thinking. If there';s an Oklahoma PA so is an Indiana...James Stewart born there. How about Coxsackie NY? That doesn't take much thought.
Too bad there isn't an Afterglow in that vicinity.:-)
[I've been in most every one except Wawa, which I missed somehow. I really thought that was the name of a convienance store in the Philly area.]
The store chain has its headquarters in the town, hence its name.
I had quite a discussion with a friend from South Carolina about ten years ago when he criticized tha Wawa name as being a pretty dumb name for a store. I asked him if he thought a store named Piggly Wiggly was any better.
Piggly Wiggly is Pigs favorite store.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pigs has tried so many different handles that I wonder if he ever considered Piggly Wiggly!
It does have a nice rhyme to it!
Karl: Metro-North will take you to the "Gate of Heaven" and Amtrak goes to Hell's Gate, but the Strasburg Railroad will take you to Paradise.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On the Strasburg RR you can get to Paradise without going through Intercourse! :-)
There is a Wawa, Ontario on Rt. 17 as you head north along the eastern shore of Lake Surperior.
I'll bet that you didn't know that Oklahoma was in Pennsylvania too!
You have no idea in how many places you'll find Brooklyn :)
--Mark
I know, we have a Brooklyn in Susquehanna County, Pa, and believe me, it is nothing like the one in New York.
Out of a need to know. What is it like?
Peace,
ANDEE
It was more than fifty years ago that I was there to attend an on-site household auction of a deceased distant relative. It seemed to be nothing more than a intersection of two country roads then. It was just a few miles south of Montrose, which is the county seat of Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania.
I checked a current atlas and can not find a listing, so perhaps it does not exist anymore. Many small towns lost their post offices since the end of WWII. I do know that it was spelled Brooklyn, because I lived in Brooklyn, New York at the time, and couldn't get over the differences between two places with the same name.
I know, we have a Brooklyn in Susquehanna County, Pa, and believe me, it is nothing like the one in New York.
It is still hotly debated weither or not Brooklyn joined New York or New York joined Brooklyn.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Not to mention Florida, NY.....
But we have a Venus, Pa!
[But we have a Venus, Pa!]
No De Milo?
No, that's one we don't have. We do have a Mars, Pa!
And there's also Mars Hill, North Carolina (home of Mars Hill College) as well as Aho, Eden, Hamlet, Concord (pronounced con-cord, not konk-erd), and Spring Hope - all of them stops on one RR or another at one time (Concord and Mars Hill on the Southern, Spring Hope on a branch of the Atlantic Coast Line, the others I don't remember - although Hamlet is still a major rail junction today).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And there's a "Mars" station on the Metra-Milwaukee West line. It's an in-city stop (Oak Park Avenue) right next to the M&M/Mars factory. The neighborhood isn't called Mars, just the station.
The system that has the most humourous English station names, at least to Americans is the London Underground. Besides "Shepard's Bush", here in no particular order are some of the other station names:
"Seven Sisters"
"Blackhorse Road"
"Gospel Oak"
"Chalk Farm"
"Uxbridge"
"Hornchurch"
"Cutty Sark"
"Shoreditch"
"Barking"
"West Harm"; "East Harm"; and "Dagenharm East"
"Pudding Mill Lane"
"Hackney Wick"
"Swiss Cottage"
"Piccadilly Circus"
"Chancery Lane"
"The Temple"
"Blackfriars"
"Canary Wharf"
"Hammersmith"
and my personal favorite: "Elephant & Castle"
There's a Saint Pancras station on both the Circle Line and British Rail. (It was the scene of a huge fire with large loss of life in 1987.) For the longest time, I thought it was Saint Pancreas!
You can tell a Yank if he pronounces Leicester Square as 'Ly-chester' instead of the proper 'Lester'.
I made that mistake while in London in 1978. It came out "LY-kester".
Speaking of Piccadilly Circus, IIRC a circus in the UK is what we refer to as a traffic circle.
Monty Python fans will recognize Uxbridge. That's where the road climbing sketch took place. It's on the same show as the Cheese Shop.
Ladies and Gentlemen ... boys and girls .. it's time for the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Traffic Circle :)
--Mark
Saint Pancreas? Mus' be the patron saint of Diabetics! :o>>>
I think Elephant & Castle was (or, perhaps, IS) a Pub - it is a corruption of "L'Enfant De Castile", which is French for "The Child of Castille (in Spain)", referring to some French or Spanish nobleman. Perhaps some local wag butchered the name and it stuck.
I like "OVAL" - simple yet perplexing. Never mind that's what they call their cricket field... And why on earth would they want to name a station "ANGEL"?
wayne
It's ....siliogogoch, not ....siliogogogoch.
It's the world's longest train station name.
There IS a railway station there -- I forget the URL t th web page, but on the station signage, they shortened it to about a dozen letters.
Are we talking about American Names or in the English Languag only?
........how about that subway station ""SOUTH BERRY"".........???
Salaam,
If you are talking about New York it's South Ferry, not Berry!
The "LL" train must stop there! :o>
wayne
Near my brother-in-law, in Sharon, Mass, is a road called something like Lake Molomolopolopoag. Everytime we pass that street sign it makes me laugh.
--Mark
[On the LIRR, I'll contribute "Ronkonoma." Also, I once told a tourist who asked me for directions on the LIRR to take such-and-such a train, and "Change at Jamaica." He told me he thought that trains couldn't travel over water... and wasn't the Carribean a bit far?]
The LIRR also has hard-to-pronounce Yaphank and Copiague, Rockville Centre with its pretentious spelling, and the just plain odd case of Country Life Press.
If we're counting irony, I nominate Washington Metro's "Shady Grove" in Maryland. This is the last stop on the Red Line, and it's surrounded by a GIGANTIC parking lot -- not a lick of shade in sight.
How about Foggy Bottom?
Atlanta: Hamilton E. Holmes
East Point and West End are on the South line, but at least West Lake is on the West line and East Lake is on the East Line
Great Neck is WEST Egg.
Excellent, Old Sport.
Why don't you get Tom and Daisy and we'll take a spin down on the Sound?:):)
No one said the obvious:
Jamaica (the island?)
Also up there (some words hyphenated to indicate why it's strange)...
Flushing 7
LIRR:
Smithtown
Locust Manor
Hunters-point
Flat-bush
NJT:
New-ark
Ho-Ho-Kus (Cuss?)
Kings-land
Ridgewood, Woodridge, Woodbridge, not much wood near any of these stops
Middletown (also name of MNRR station, Hoboken terminal has direct trains to both!)
Hack-en-sack (and all variations).
Teter-Boro (there's also an airport there, teeter not a word you want to hear on a plane!)
Little Falls
Garfield
Brick Church
Convent Station
Hackettstown
Red Bank
Pt. Pleasant & Bay Head consecutive
MNRR:
Suffern
Middletown, town of Wallkill
Salisbury Mills - Cornwall
Tuxedo
Cos Cob
Purdy's
Sputen-Duyvill
Breakneck Ridge
Also, Middletown, NY is a city. Shouldn't it be Middlecity? :-)
No..its MiddleTOWN...and don't ask what its in the middle of, either, nobody's real sure why it was named "Middle'town....Actually a funny fact is that for about 50-60 years, OFFICIALLY according to the Post Office; Middletown was SOUTH Middletown, because there was a 'Middletown' somewhere up in the Adirondacks...although there are no stories of mail ever having gone there instead of here...
I thought that Middletown was a chartered city?
It is now, but it started as a very small(and not-so successful)village...things really didn't start happinin' here until they bribed the Erie to route thru town in 1848. It was chartered as a city in 1888...
Another one on the NJT Main is Mahwah.... Also Tuxedo gets a snicker sometime..and in the old Erie days Goshen...The only reason our MN station is called "Middletown/Town of Wallkill" is because the local sleazes who run the TOW pressured the NY state government to change it...technically, yes, it is situated in the Town of Wallkill...but just about everyone who lives in the Town of Wallkill anywhere NEAR Middletown tends to say they are from Middletown, not the TOW, which annoys their officials IMMENSLEY. Part of their probem is that the Post Office is still Middletown, the TOW doesn't show on road maps,and all the exits on I84 and 17 all say 'Middletown'....
[Another one on the NJT Main is Mahwah]
Which sounds like a baby's first word :-)
I remember the fifty year old story about the conductor walking through the train in New Jersey calling out the name of the next stop.
"Dunellen" he said "Dunellen"
A sweet, young feminine voice answers from the bathroom,
"Yes, thank you, all but the paper!"
Another one for New York: Nyack, but only for those who are reading it. And Sheepshead Bay.
Atlanta: Buckhead, Dunwoody sounds kind of funny
Fishkill comes to mind, but I can't remember if Metro North goes that far, let alone stops there.
Fishkill goes much farther, but doesn't stop.
MN stops at Beacon. Fishkill is a few miles east.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was an effort by some animal rights group to have the name "Fishkill" changed to "Fishsave" because it sounded detrimental to the preservation of fish in the creek.
I kid you not. It was big news in Dutchess County for a while.
--Mark
Don't forget my favorites of the Brighton Line... Brighton Beach and Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue. Hmm... how do you spell that station on the J/Z Line... It's between Myrtle and Broadway - Eastern Parkway. It begins with a K. I think it's Kosciosko. (I can never get the spelling right.)
You're close, it's Kosciusko!
KOSCIUSZKO , which is pronounced "ka-SHOO-sko".
wayne
Gee! I have been gone from the city too long!
Kosciusko used to be pronounced cos-key-ah-sko!
No, its still spelled the same,but to be P.C. the pronunciation is now done in the original language. For example Peking is now Beijing.
In the past many things were anglosized. I kind of like the flavor and color of the original names from the old world and eastern world. The same can be said for the native american names through out the country.
Lackawanna, Mississippi,Wyoming,Lakota,Idaho
avid
If Peking is supposed to be pronounced Beijing wouldn't it be easier to spell it Beijing in the first place.
The town name that always fascinated me is in upstate New York. It's Cazenovia (hope I spelled it right).
>>>"ka-SHOO-sko". <<<
Gueshundhit
Beat me to it :)
--Mark
Some former stations of the LIRR
The Raunt
Kouwenhoven
Ford's Corner - was also called Rugby
Penny Bridge
Frankiston
Island Trees
Club House
Fashion Race Course
Goose Creek
NJ Transit has a few: Wood-Ridge (not, it's *not* one word), Peapack (thank God it isn't fudge), Netcong (no Viet?), Convent Station (you really don't have to be a nun to use it), Tuxedo (no casual Fridays here, thank you), and last but not least, the ever-popular Ho-ho-kus.
How about Neck Rd. (on the Brighton line).
Septa has lots of less than pronounceable names...
I still chuckle at Washington Metro's "Foggy Bottom," because it's just funny, and both "Grosvenor" and "Judiciary Square," because the conductors said them as many different ways as there were conductors. But the last time I was in D.C., a recorded voice was announcing station names. I wasn't on a train to either of these stations though, so I didn't get to hear the definitive pronunciations.
More in DC (with the help of a friend) are Foggy Bottom-GWU (Blue/Orange) and Ballston (Orange). I also think the suffixes on some of the stations are a little wierd. They are Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (red), West Falls Church-VT/UVA (Orange), Vienna/Fairfax-GMU (Orange), U Street/African American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo (Green and that is the official name, it has yet to be put on maps), and Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center (Green/Yellow, this has yet to appear on maps as well).
I think I have a reason for those long names:
The arches in many Metro stations are no longer so structurally sound, so by lengthening the names, they have a backhanded reason for extending the columns to the ceiling. :-)
.............yea.........stations like ........"""SOUTH-BERRY""".............!!!!!!!!!!...................?.
More in DC (with the help of a friend) are Foggy Bottom-GWU (Blue/Orange) and Ballston-MU (Orange). I also think the suffixes on some of the stations are a little wierd. They are Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (red), West Falls Church-VT/UVA (Orange), Vienna/Fairfax-GMU (Orange), U Street/African American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo (Green and that is the official name, it has yet to be put on maps), and Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center (Green/Yellow, this has yet to appear on maps as well).
Actually, Fresh Kills (the highest point on the Eastern Seaboard, most odorous too) is not on the SIR. You're looking for Great Kills (still funny).
On the Chicago els, There are two stations that follow one another "Howard" and "Jarvis", which is just south of "Howard" on the map. Howard Jarvis was the name of a tax crusader in California who, around 1978, successfully pushed "Prosition 13", a tax-rollback initiative. He also had a cameo in the Zucker/Abrahams/Zucker film "Airplane", as a taxi cab fare.
Here's a few from Philly:
Paoli: Ooh, pasta!
Marcus Hook: Arr!
Crum Lynne: And Morsel Tim
Primos, Angora, Upsal, Tulpehocken, Conshohocken, Fortuna, Link Belt,
Oreland, scene of the 1849 Philadelphia gold rush, Colmar, Hatboro(HQ of Hair Club for Men), Croydon and Bryn Mawr.
Plus new stations Thorndale and Churchman's Crossing.
The area, especially the Main Line, is loaded with old Scotch and Indian names(our famous -hockens), Dutch(Schuylkill-pronounced Skoo-kill).
I personally always thought the LIRR had the weirdest names(Mattituck, Yaphank, Ronkonkoma-I used to say Ron-kun-koma, Montauk).
....Oreland, scene of the 1849 Philadelphia gold rush, Colmar, Hatboro(HQ of Hair Club for Men), Croydon and Bryn Mawr.
Chicago also has a Bryn Mawr, on the Howard end of the Red Line. Which brings us to another silly trivia question to ponder: What station names show up in more than one city, or more than once in the same city?
We've established Chicago and Philly both have Bryn Mawr.
Chicago and Boston share Wellington, Chinatown (in Chicago it's Cermak / Chinatown, to be fair), Davis, Washington, and Central. The T also has a station at State; CTA has the State Street Subway. Boston has a train that goes from Oak Grove to Forest Hills. Chicago has a train that goes to Forest Park via Oak Park.
Chicago and Atlanta both have stops on North Avenue. (In Chicago, it's actually North/Clybourn. But North Avenue on the CTA is south of South Boulevard.)
Atlanta and Boston both have Airport stations, not surprisingly. (In Chicago both the airport stations are named after the specific airports they serve, O'Hare and Midway.)
Boston and New York share Forest Hills and Broadway. New York has a Cleveland Street and a Columbus Circle. Boston has Cleveland Circle.
Not counting stations named after numbered streets, Chicago and New York share Wilson Ave, Montrose, Grand, Main Street, Clinton, Central, Harlem, and Clark. (In Chicago it's Clark/Division. But the CTA also makes a stop at Central Park.) New York has Grand Central, Grand Concourse, Grand Army Plaza, Grand Street and Grand Avenue; Chicago has just plain Grand.
New York has four Canal Street stations, three Chambers, two Cortlants, three Church Avenues, two Newkirk Avenues, three Kings Highways, three Fort Hamilton Parkways and more Broadways than I care to count.
Chicago has three Ciceros, three Pulaskis, three Addisons, three Halsteds, four Kedzies and a whopping five Western Avenue stations. Not to mention two each of Harlem, Oak Park, Austin, Washington, Monroe, Jackson, Division, Garfield, and Irving Park.
I've probably missed a few, and I'm sure there's more duplicates in other cities that I'm not as familiar with. I wonder which station name appears in the most cities? Chicago, New York and Boston each have at least one station named Central.
-- David
Boston, MA
I think there are SIX Canal Streets:
Canal (1/9)
Canal (Holland tunnel) (A/C/E)
Canal (6)
Canal (N/R)
Canal (Bridge station)
Canal (J/M/Z)
and there's 3 Avenue "U"s too.
wayne
Don't forget about 7th Ave (Brooklyn and Manhattan), and 50th Street (Brooklyn and Manhattan) and 59th Street (same) as well as 86th St (same).
You wanna go where? :)
--Mark
I want to go from 36th Street to 36th Street. (shall I take the "R" train?)
wayne
YUP, but we are not considering number streets if you read a earlier post
Of course. Americans like to use number street. In New York City Subway, there are lots of duplicate number st. station names. Also, streets and avenues makes confusion.
Especially Brooklyn where there are 2 West 9th Sts, and how many other with the number 9, Pigs should know.
West 9th Street (Carroll Gardens)
West 9th Street (Gravesend/Bensonhurst)
9th Street
9th Avenue
East 9th Street
South 9th Street
North 9th Street
Paerdegat 9th Street
Flatlands 9th Street
There seems to be even more with 10 on it especially in Brighton Beach
Yes, there is no Brighton 9th Street.
There are also Four Chambers Street Stations:
IRT 1,2,3,9
BMT J,M,Z
IND A,C
IND E
Cortlandt Street has two stations: IRT 1,9 and BMT N,R
And five 42nd St. stations:
IND 8th Ave. A, C, E
IND 6th Ave. B, D, F, Q
IRT 1, 2, 3, 9 aka Times Square
BMT N, R aka Times Square
IRT 4, 5, 6. aka Grand Central
The Times Square end of the shuttle has "42" on the station walls in addition to "Times Square", so I would give that an honorable mention.
Philly shares Chinatown with Chicago and Boston on the Broad/Ridge Spur.
A-Train, Broadway in Brooklyn, Broadway-Fulton F-2 Broadways in 3 stations Broadway-Laffayette and E Broadway, plus runs under Broadway in Queens. N-Broadway in Astoria and it is the Broadway Line,Ft Hamilton PKY B-F-N, 95thSt-Ft Hamilton(R) The actual name for the Manny Bridge Manhatten Station is Broadway-Canal St. There are so many
City Hall is in both Philly and NYC.
Philadelphia has 3 Alegheny station if you count regional rail. Also, I would imagine other systems have a Church station, or a Snyder station or a Huntingdon station, or possibly a Logan Station.
"Also, I would imagine other systems have a Church station, or a Snyder station or a Huntingdon station, or possibly a Logan Station."
CTA has an "almost Logan": Logan Square station on the Blue Line.
What's really funny is how the E stops at the Jamaica Van Wyck station and bypasses the Van Wyck Blvd (renamed Briarwood-Van Wyck) station on it's route in Queens. I dunno of any other line which does this, do U?
ONE MORE THING - NY also has 2 Penn Stations, 2 161st Street/Yankee Stadium stations, about 4 125th Street stations, 2 Dyckman Street stations, I'm not even gonna name all the stations on the Upper West Side on the 8 Ave (IND) & 7 Ave/Broadway (IRT) lines, and also the East Side IRT lines, 2 City Hall Stations (Brooklyn Bridge or even the old loop station,) and a couple of Wall Street stations. Right now I'm gonna stop because now I understand why you missed some of them :)
But all of the duplicate street name stations stop on the same street or in the same place. Big deal. If you're boarding the wrong train to begin with, then you have a completely different problem.
Not to forget Bryn Mawr on the Metra Electric(IC) South Chicago branch. And in classic railroad times the multitude of mainline stations on 63rd Street two of which were called Englewood
Not to forget Bryn Mawr on the Metra Electric(IC) South Chicago branch.
Actually, I believe that Bryn Mawr was the former name of the south side street now known as Jeffery Blvd. Sometime in the 1940s or 50s (I think) the City of Chicago renamed a bunch of streets to eliminate duplicate names (there's also a Bryn Mawr on the north side). However, the IC never changed the name of the station.
-- Ed Sachs
I know the very Bryn Mawr on the north side you speak of. My aunt lives a block south of the Red line station on that street. Her apartment building is right next to the elevated structure, which for those of you who may not be familiar with that particular line, is built on an embankment at that point, with concrete retaining walls on either side. It's a nice, straight stretch between Wilson and Grandville, running along an alley between Broadway and Winthrop Ave.
david vartanoff wrote:
> And in classic railroad times the multitude of mainline
> stations on 63rd Street two of which were called Englewood
The names weren't quite identical, though. The more easterly of the two, served by NYC, PRR, Rock Island, and Nickel Plate, was just plain Englewood. The one a couple of blocks farther west, used by C&EI, Wabash, Monon, and Erie, was called Englewood Union Station.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The 'E' stops at 23rd Street and 8th Avenue in Chelsea. The 'F' stops at 23rd Street and 6th Avenue, also in Chelsea. Both trains stop at 23rd Street/Ely Avenue and 44th Drive in Long Island City.
I often pass by the latter station in the course of my daily commute. At least once a week some confused approaches me for assistance, usually with a Chelsea address in hand. Just try explaining that they got off at the WRONG 23rd Street station.
It's even better when the person has boarded the train downtown or Brooklyn, which conveys the fact they already PASSED their intended 23rd Street station!
The station should be renamed Court Square, like the G station.
How about the B, First Stop Bay 50th, then later on 50th Street, and again later again 50th St Manhatten
No, because you have Bay 50th, 50th, then 47th-50th Rockefeller Center. In this case, the TA has to keep the obsolete name in order to prevent confusion.
More duplicate NYC stations:
2 Beverley Roads (Brighton and IRT)
3 Bay Parkways (N,B,F)
Avenue U is Brighton and Culver
Kings Highway-Brightno, Culver, Sea Beach
Ft Hamilton Pkwy- F,N,B
Kingsbridge, Fordham, Bedford Park- Concourse and Jerome
Gun Hill- 2 and 5
Wall Street, Fulton Street, Rector St. Sutphin Blvd,Woodhaven Blvd
No, there's only one Beverley, on the D. The 2/5 has Beverly.
Same Street Though, different spelling, why? don t ask we went thru this earlier this year.
Avenue U has a nice lyrical ring to it.
Some conductors on both the subway and LIRR pronounce Nostrand with a short 'o' so it reminds you of those two holes at the front of your nose.
Somehow, Knickerbocker and Whitlock always sounded funny to me.
NJT has Delawanna, Plauderville (sounds more like a backwater burg in the South than a subdivision of Garfield) and Campbell Hall (a dormitory?)
Metro North's Danbury branch has Merritt 7, named for the confluence of the two named roadways. Sounds more like a gas station. Rye is also a funny name; our day camp counselor would announce that today we were going to "Bread Beach".
Overheard in Grand Central: "Is this the train to Dover Plains?"
Many Penn Station and Jamaica announcers love to really draw out "Mass-a-PEQ-ua!".
NJT's Coast Line has Matawan and Manasquan.
SEPTA used to have Wawa on its defunct West Chester branch. There's also Manayunk on R6 Norristown, and at the other end, Bala Cynwyd, which some wits would refer to as "Ball o' cyanide".
In a very confusing pattern, Chestnut Hills East and West are on two separate branches that depart the Center City tunnel in opposite directions. Of course, before the 1983 consolidation, one branch ran out of Suburban Station and 30th Street; the other out of the old Reading Terminal through Temple. The actual terminals are a block and a half apart.
Then there's MFL's Margaret-Orthodox. I feel sorry for anyone named Margaret who lives in Philadelphia.
Real confusion: Eddington/Eddystone. Wayne/Wayne Junction. Langhorne/Lansdale/Lansdowne/Lawndale.
Our names are being stolen: Ardsley, Gladstone, Newark, Prospect Park, Roslyn, Malvern, Levittown, Forest Hills, Clifton, Wayne.
. Wayne/Wayne Junction
At least they had the good sense to name these stations after a famous Broolkyn sub-talker.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I like best when the train door open/closer announces ACK A DUCK , NO CAN DO IT for Aquaduct/North Conduit .
avid
Do you think all of this pronounciation problem started with the conductors on the R-16's saying "Watchadoors"!
How about the town of Neptune, NJ (next to Asbury Park). The boardwalk area has casinos, restaurants and hotels, but they are completely abandoned and deserted. Nobody lives on/in Neptune . . .
The only worse thing would be a town named Uranus - either way you pronounce it, it's either [yer-ANUS] or [URINE-es].
How about a town named Earth?
PERSON 1: Where do you live?
PERSON 2: Earth
PERSON 1: Smart a$$!
In Hong Kong there is a station called Olympic but neither a Olympic-like Stadium nor a sportsground is there and actually it is a part of old city sprawl on the reclamed land. Its real place name is TAI KOK TSUI, so people may be confuse by its station name. You can find it when you take TUNG CHUNG LINE ( a part of airport railway in MTR but not airport express).
You can't find diamond in Diamond Hill because it is the translation problem (The meaning in Chinese is Minding Hill).
Long name never be a good name but sometime short name is not a good name to like the Grand in Chicago (Grand for what?).
Hong Kong Station and Central Station in Hong Kong MTR is the same station with long exchanging passege because of different time of building. Why don't they use the same name.
[Hong Kong Station and Central Station in Hong Kong MTR is the same station with long exchanging passege because of different time of building. Why don't they use the same name?]
Due to the time reason, I can't type a lot there. Actually, MTR uses a general naming system for Airport Railway. That why there is Hong Kong Station and Kowloon Station. Hong Kong can either represents an island and a city. Kowloon represents the peninsula. MTR use them as a station name? Just suppose there is a station called "NEW YORK". New York Can represents a state or a city. If MTA had a station called New York, this may be the most humorous station name in America.
Originally, there is a station in KCR called Kowloon which has been renamed as Hung Hom to prevent duplicate with Kowloon Station in AR.
So that a station should be called as Central Station become Hong Kong Station. The problem is tourist taking Airport Express don't know Hong Kong Station is which part of Hong Kong. The same case for Kowloon Station.
It can also represent New York County. It is the only place in the United States where the state, city and county have the same name at the same time.
I'll ask the ticket agent for a round trip to Erster Bay. You know, where Norton attended P.S. 31.
Once at Hoboken (HoBOKen?! Ooooh, I'm DYYYYYIN!!), I asked for a round trip to Good Notch on the Boonton Line. They didn't get it.
What aboot Hatboro, that's much more amusing than Warminster. also don't forget that Pardise PA out on the main line once had a station.
Some of the other NY stations were already mentioned. How about these ....
Freeman St: all other stations are subject to slavery.
Kings Highway: for royalty only.
Fresh Pond Road: C'mon, where you gonna find a fresh pond in NYC?
Sheepshead Bay: Please check your staffs in before you board the trains. (What IS the origin of that name?)
Rector St: As a kid, you had a lot of fun with this one.
Gun Hill Road: Sounds like some battle occurred there (or was it an apt description for the neighborhood at one time :)
Also, Hunters Point Av (#7) and Hunts Point Av (#6) was always a source of confusion for me.
--Mark
"Also, Hunters Point Av (#7) and Hunts Point Av (#6) was always a source of confusion for me."
This was the basis for a funny scene on "Mad About You." Paul and Jamie are operating a token booth in a subway station (Union Square?) and a particularly obnoxious passenger ("HURRY UP! I haven't got all day!") asks for directions to Hunterspoint Avenue. Jamie gives here some directions -- the audience doesn't hear them -- and when the passenger leaves, Paul complements her for keeping her cool with a trying customer. Jamie responds (basically) "I fixed her! I gave her directions to Hunts Point Avenue instead. Ha, she won't come out alive!"
The whole thing is even funnier when you recall that Jamie is played by Helen Hunt.
my one question is why are they runing the token booth????
IIRC, Paul and Jamie were getting on the subway near their apartment when Paul recognized the token clerk as an old film-school chum. When they started talking, the clerk became so disappointed at his failure in contrast to Paul's moviemaking success that he just walked away despondently -- with the token booth door open. Paul and Jamie took over because they felt responsible for driving him away and didn't want him to lose his job.
Really, the way Reiser & Hunt play the scene, it's MUCH funnier than how I've described it.
Gun Hill Road was part of the original pre-revolutionary Boston Post Road.
On January 25, 1777, a small party of Americand dragged a cannon to the top of the hill west of the Bronx River and fired on a British force. This hill is now inside Woodlawn Cemetery (Summit Sector) and was called Gun Hill long afterwards.1
1McNamara, John, History in Asphalt: The origin of Bronx Street and Place Names, Third Revised Edition (Bronx, NY: Bronx County Hist. Soc, 1991) 119.
Proposed MetroLink Stop: Rancho Cucamonga (Thanks Mel Brooks)
Next stop Intercourse, Pennsylvania, off here for Intercourse.
(There is another town in Indiana which is just as bad as this one)
WELLLLLLL...
Don't keep us all in suspense........
What's the name? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
French Lick, Indiana
Hello, I'm building a model of an R-27 as they appeared in the early 1970s.
I need to find a stationary subway train, preferably an R-32 - R 40, with an open view of the wheels and components for accurate reproduction in the model.
I couldn't find any good pictures on this site for the project.
Thank you in advance for assistance.
If you're near Coney Island yard, you might find one on the "scrap track" near McDonald Ave close enough for you to make your sketches.
In fact, there is a pair of R-30s sitting right near there .....
--Mark
It happened again this morning to me. . .
As my "R" train was going through the tunnel from Queens Plaza to Lex. Ave., I (and many others) distinctly smelled cigarette smoke. I was riding in the front car and was up against the front wall which meant that it was either coming from outside or from the operator. Regardless, it was amazingly nauseating in such a confined space.
Is this the operator getting a quick puff during that 3-minute stretch or just hanging smoke in the tunnel?? This has also happened to me as I sat in the Conductor's car on the "7" Express train between 61st and Junction Blvd (quite a distance, as well).
Has anyone ever noticed this and is there someone to complain to about it?
-Jason
jbrown:
In December of 1993 I was riding the front car of the "F" train and I noticed that the TO and a pack of cigarettes on top of the console and he was smoking. I think that NO ONE on the train crew should be permitted to smoke while there are passengers on the train because there are some of those who can become quite ill when they breathe other peoples cigarette smoke. As for passengers that smoke they should be subjected to a hefty fine if they're caught smoking on the train. Smokers should realize that they are using a public facility and should think of others who dislike or cannot tolerate other peoples' cigarette smoke. If they wish to smoke please do so elsewher NOT ON THE TRAINS!!
BMTJeff
Why fine just the passengers. The law says no smoking in the subway. Fine everyine including T/O, C/R, tower people, track workers, EVERYBODY !!!!
A driver on the N6 was smoking in full view of his passengers. One woman complained to the driver, who responded with a barrage of sarcasm.
On my daily ride home from high school on the Q76 some twenty-five years (!!) ago, we'd pick up a load of smoking Saint Francis Prep students. The driver wouldn't say anything; he'd just light up himself (a cigarette, that is!).
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
jrf:
You are right, they should fine ANYONE that smokes in the subway system INCLUDING staff.
BMTJeff
jbrown:
In December of 1993 I was riding the front car of the "F" train and I noticed that the TO and a pack of cigarettes on top of the console and he was smoking. I think that NO ONE on the train crew should be permitted to smoke while there are passengers on the train because there are some of those who can become quite ill when they breathe other peoples cigarette smoke. As for passengers that smoke they should be subjected to a hefty fine if they're caught smoking on the train. Smokers should realize that they are using a public facility and should think of others who dislike or cannot tolerate other peoples' cigarette smoke. If they wish to smoke please do so elsewhere NOT ON THE TRAINS!!
BMTJeff
It's a violation. Get the car number and report it NYCT Customer Assistance by calling 718-330-3322 during business hours. Also provide the route, direction, and the location and time you boarded and the location where you observed the problem. If you happen to get a look at the Train Operator, report his or her physical description as well, to make identification easier.
David
The phone number is now 718-243-3322. NYCT's not on the 330-exchange anymore. Sorry.
David
The problem of employee smoking is a serious one. The NYCT has a very aggressive policy regarding smoking in the workplace. It is prohibited in all common areas unless all users of that area agree to permit smoking (so it never is), it's prohibited on all transit vehicles and especially anywhere in view of the public. Virtually, the only place smoking is permitted on TA property is in a smoker's private office.
Having said that, I've seen train crews smoking outside crew rooms or in front of dispatcher's offices. I, a non-smoker, usually will report it to the manager in charge. Smoking on TA property is a violation that is punishable under transit rules, health code, and municipal law. If it is observed, get as much info as possible [car # route, approx. time, etc. and report it. I assure you, it will be dealt with.
It's a joy to be an ex-smoker (I quit March 2,2000).... before long, smoking will become a criminal act, mark my words.
AND BLUDDY WELL IT SHOULD BE!
wayne
[It's a joy to be an ex-smoker (I quit March 2,2000).... ]
It's not over yet, believe me, been there.
Arti
I suspect that smoking (and other tobacco products) will not be made illegal in our lifetimes. As abhorrent as the habit is, the product is legal, and the industry too big. At least the banning of smoking in public places has made the habit harder to use.
I'm a non-smoker, and believe it or not, there are only three smokers in the BSM Transportation Department, out of 58 trainmen. Our Chief Dispatcher is a smoker (that's one), and after 15 years of constant ragging is down from a pack a day to a pack every two weeks, so there has been an improvement.
>>>I suspect that smoking (and other tobacco products) will not be made illegal in our lifetimes.<<<
I always wonder who will pick up the lost tax revenue if smoking is outlawed?
Peace,
ANDEE
That's one of the interresting aspects of this subject. Farm land that is used to grow tobbacco is subsidized by our government. On the other hand, Tobbacco is so heavily taxed that it more than covers the cost of those subsidies. Now, we could eliminate the subsidies for growing tobbacco and shift production of that land to food staples. The problem is we, as a people will stand still for taxation of our vices but we'll never stand for taxation of food. And the trough-feeders in Washington will never give up a source of nourishment.
In other words you are saying that the burden would be shifted to everybody?
Peace,
ANDEE
As far as I'm concerned, smoking is legalized drug addiction since it is a big tax generator to the US government, which they don't want to give up, not to mention it is a big part of the economy of the tobacco producing states.
[I always wonder who will pick up the lost tax revenue if smoking is outlawed?]
I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies.
Of course, tobacco can't be outlawed, any more than alcohol or marijuana can.
[I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies. ]
I have heard that claimed a lot. So far failed to see any factual proof of course, looks like we have to take it for granted. I'd like to see any solid numbers to back this claim. (of course there are lot of similar legends taken as facts)
Arti
[I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies.]
I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. The money spent on health care is more than offset by the Social Security benefits that need not be paid out on account of smokers' premature deaths.
[I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. The money spent on health care is more than offset by the Social Security benefits that need not be paid out on account of smokers' premature deaths.]
Touche'
Seriously, though, it's very common for life savings of several hundred thousand dollars to be paid out in three years of nursing home care with a couple hospitalizations a year. When the money's gone, the patient goes on Medicaid (I'm talking about old people already on Medicare). Of course, Medicaid pays only a small fraction of what the individual paid.
Bob
[I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. ]
Again, I've read/heard misc. health related things. Never seen any facts/statistics. Mostly some biased study done etc. Remember recently publiced health benefits of alcohol later being challenged and so on and on and on. I'm very sceptical.
Arti
Cigarettes shortened my mom's life and her last few years weren't good. On the other hand my grandfather and father-in-law made 80 with them; my grandma had 65 years worth of 2nd hand smoke and lived to be 88. Yes I admit there's absolutely nothing good about smoking and I've smoked a pipe for 40 years; but I wish they'd stop the witch hunt , give us fools our corner (like on Amtrak...I never disputed short haul lines like subways forbidding it), a a part of an airport etc.None of us had to live a life of crime, deprive their families etc over it:They claim there's a war against drugs and it gets worse and worse AND younger; the problems caused by dope are far more severe but it seems too many people want it, including officials.
[give us fools our corner (like on Amtrak...I never disputed short haul lines like subways forbidding it), a a part of an airport etc]
As far as I can recall you can smoke in the bars in most airports. Las Vegas has smoking rooms.
Arti
[As far as I can recall you can smoke in the bars in most airports. Las Vegas has smoking rooms.]
The St. Louis airport has smoking booths right in the passenger concourses, at least they did when I was there three years ago. Each booth was glass-walled and maybe 20 by 20 feet. All of the ones I saw were absolutely packed with smokers, looking like a Lexington IRT train at rush hour, and so smoke-filled that the air appeared blue (presumably they vented to the outside).
I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so desparate for a butt as to tolerate one of those booths.
[All of the ones I saw were absolutely packed with smokers, looking like a Lexington IRT train at rush hour, and so smoke-filled that the air appeared blue (presumably they vented to the outside). ]
Same in Las Vegas. There was no need to light up, just inhale.
[I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so desparate for a butt as to tolerate one of those booths. ]
I usually went to a bar or outside.
Arti
Guess it beat walking almost a mile thru the airport to get outdoors especially when it could be 20 below outside, eg Minneapolis. And then having to hustle back, then might find your plane delayed.
A little walk after sitting in the plane for hours doesn't sound that bad.
Arti
Get a life! I'm sick and tired of everyone running to the Superintendent crying about every little thing. It sounds like you're a supervisor trying to earn some extra points with the Superintendent.I guess it's not possible for people like you to look the other way.No wonder why I can't wait to get my accounting degree and get out of this Mickey Mouse organization! BTW, this post comes from a non smoker.
As an ex-smoker I agree with you. Even in the '50s when a majority of the adults smoked, smoking was illegal on subway trains, and although there may have been some violations, there were not many even then. An occasional T/O smoking is not soomething I would run to management with. If he/she had a bottle of Jack Daniels that would be different.
Once saw a T/0 on the E having a cigarette in his cab while waiting to depart from WTC.
Well it wasn't me or John from Glendale!
I remember last year while I was waiting for a NB 4 Train at 161 Street/Yankee Stadium a T/O was having a smoke whaile the train was coming into the station and stsyed on the same cigarette until just before Woodlawn when she threw it out of the Cab Window. It's amazing that the T/O was able to inhale, brake, and keep a hand on the Master Controller all at the same time.
>>>>It's amazing that the T/O was able to inhale, brake, and keep a hand on the Master Controller all at the same time<<<<<<
What's so amazing about that? Do T/Os have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time?
Yesterday, while having most of the afternoon to kill, I decided ride most of the the parts of Boston's T that I had missed during my visit a couple months ago (Now, the only missing gaps are the B Green Line beyond Washington, the D Green Line beyond Reservoir, and the Red Line beyond Davis). A few general observations:
1. Up until yesterday I had only ridden the Blue Line between the airport and Bowdoin (sp?), and since most of the stations on that stretch are older and rather decrepit, I had a rather unfavorable impression of the Blue Line. However, outbound from the airport, all the stations except for Orient Heights were very new and clean. Each had a unique modern design, and I found it to be a pleasant surprise. I understand that the Airport station will be rebuilt soon -- Hopefully it will be in a similar fashion.
However, the major highlight of the Blue Line was the Aquarium station. Anybody within a reasonable distance of Boston should check this place out: It is a very deep station, but once you get down to the platform level you realize that the entire inbound end of the station is open to the sky as part of a major reconstruction project in connection with the Big Dig. The concrete shell of the station and tunnels have been blasted away, leaving a tall shaft of dirt and concrete all the way up to the surface. You can even make out where the new expressway tunnel will pass over the subway tubes. I hope to get some photos of this soon.
2. Riding the Orange Line out to Oak Grove, one also encounters some good views of Big Dig-related construction in the area of the Community College station. A good portion of the expressway interchange, which the station sits in the middle of, is a huge jumble of temporary ramps and bridges while the new interchange is being built in the midst of it all. The sheer scale of the Big Dig project continues to stagger me.
3. Further out on the Orange Line, I've noticed that many of the stations have three tracks. Outbound trains open their doors on both sides at many of these stations. Any particular reason why the line was built this way? I also have concerns about the idea of having a single track with an active platform on either side: That means the third rail is directly below a platform edge, and anybody falling from a platform would hit the third rail. (Park Street on the Red Line is also set up in this fashion.) Has this ever been raised as an issue?
4. For the life of me I can't find the entrances to the State / Citizens Bank station downtown. I've walked the entire distance of State Street between Government Center and the Aquarium station, and the State station is nowhere to be found. But I've transferred between trains there and I've passed through it, so I know it's down there someplace.
5. I'm very impressed with the new Bombarier cars on the Red Line. Very sleek looking, a nice smooth ride, the motors have a cool sound, and they appear very solid. IMO, everything a modern subway car should be. I'd love to see the Hawker-Sidley cars on the Blue and Orange Lines replaced with something similar -- The rolling stock on both those lines looks due for a one-way trip to the scrap heap. (However, I was interested to read here that the Hawker-Sidleys were modeled after PATH trains. I've never ridden PATH, but I've seen the photos here and noted the similarities.)
6. After seeing a couple of the new Type-8's on the Green Line in various places, I finally caught one on the B branch. Interesting concept, although I much prefer to face forward while riding. The Type-8's only have two forward facing seats, neither with a decent view out the window. The new cars are a bit of a radical departure from the Boeing LRV's and Type-7's, and we seemed to turn a lot of heads as we went down Comm. Ave.
7. I'm very impressed with the newer stations on the entire system, especially the north end of the Red Line and the south end of the Orange Line. Each are unique and some are quite creative. It looks like the MBTA has been making a deliberate effort to make the stations a pleasure to use. Take heed, CTA.
And now for the million-dollar question: Which will be completed first, the Big Dig or David Cole's degree in architecture?
-- David
Boston, MA
David - I think the station you are looking for may the one sited underneath the old State House building, which is located generally at the corner of State and Cambridge Streets (it is a very complex intersection, so it is difficult to say with exactitude what the intersecting streets are.) The old State House building is a brick structure with a notable coat of arms that faces generally eastward looking down State Street towards the waterfront (the direction of the Old Custom House.)
No challenge there and you will not be 1.5 Billion over budget either I wot. Best of luck while you are at it.
That's easy, David. You'll have a PhD first.
Just one comment on your excellent notes: There is a plan afoot to replace all of the Blue Line cars with new models. Then take the existing Blue Line cars and move them to the Orange Line. Since Blue Line cars are shorter, eight 48.5 foot car consists are planned (current Orange Line trains are six 65 foot cars). For pictures/stats on these, see The NETransit Site.
When the Blue Line cars are moved to the Orange Line, will they be used for service expansion or are some of the existing Orange Line cars going to be retired? Because the NETransit site says that that the Orange cars were built between 1979-81 and the Blue cars were built between 1978-80 making them a little older than the Orange cars. Is this part of a plan to standardize some of the fleet (both lines' cars are the same width)? Are any extentions being planned for the Orange Line?
My understanding is that the Blue Line cars will be used to add additional service to the existing Orange Line, as there is room for more frequent service during rush hour.
I know of no plans to extend the Orange Line. For many years, there has been talk of extending the Blue Line north to Lynn, and the Green Line north of Lechmere to Medford. But there are no firm plans, nor any money allocated at this time.
David's post has motivated me to remind everyone of the "T" party in mid July (15th & 16th) that includes a trip to Seashore.
We now have three qualified tour guides for the "T" portion, David's the third.
The 3/4 ton crew is making it a three day weekend:
- Saturday at Seashore all day, stay after closing for a ride on the pair of INDs (R-4 & R-7A). Todd has obtained permission to bring out their Fishbowl (that's a B-U-S) and has planned a couple of surprises for us, i.e. maybe a trip to downtown Kennebunkport mid-day.
- Sunday we'll ride the "T" until they roll up the streets, which they still do about midnight.
- Monday the 3/4 ton crew will hit the road after our Continental Breakfest and plan to catch the ferry from New London to Orient Point (the non-railfan portion, but it should be FUN). Might stop at Riverhead where there's a steam museum that we've heard is almost ready to begin operations.
More details available in the Comming Events of this site. There's already a number of Subtalkers signed up, but still some room on the bus, however time is getting short to make hotel reservations. Public transportation will get you close to Kennebunkport, so if a group of you all arrive on the same train we should be able to pick you us. E-mail directly to work out the details.
Mr t__:^)
[And now for the million-dollar question: Which will be completed first, the Big Dig or David Cole's degree in architecture?]
Dunno about the Big Dig, but I can state with absolute confidence that you will have retired after a long, distinguished architectural career well before the Second Avenue subway is completed.
[4. For the life of me I can't find the entrances to the State / Citizens Bank station downtown. I've walked the entire distance of State Street between Government Center and the Aquarium station, and the State station is nowhere to be found. But I've transferred between trains there and I've passed through it, so I know it's down there someplace.]
David,
Find the entrance(s) in reverse. From the station platform, take the EXIT stair(s) and see where on the street you come out.
Enjoyed reading your observations.
I followed your suggestion. I took the exit stairs from the State/Citizen's Bank station, and emerged in the middle of a cornfield a few miles outside of Wichita, Kansas.
OK, I'm lying. I poked and prodded around the area a bit more yesterday, and finally found an unmarked entrance to the subway station through the old State House itself; the doors are at the street level on the eastern end of the building. It seemed an unlikely place to put an entrance to a subway station, but I assume there are other entrances to the station itself -- Possibly the lower level of the Citizens Bank building across the street (hence, the name for the station).
-- David
Boston, MA
[finally found an unmarked entrance to the subway station through the old State House itself]
That's the one, in the 60's you could use it.
Mr t__:^)
The entrance is still in service, it just isn't marked by any sort of signage that I saw. The only indicators that it was a subway entrance was the fact that the style of doors is identical to the doors in most of the other T stations.
-- David
Boston, MA
The Haymarket-North extension (opened in 1975) was 3 tracked because the original (1960s) plan for the Orange Line was to run express trains to Reading (and south to Needham). The third track north of Wellington was used as an interim commuter rail track for the Haverhill Line, now permanent. That's why there is an unused CR platform at Oak Grove. Also an underpass in Malden was only built with enough clearance for an RDC/F10, it had to be raised when the F40s were purchased.
The thinking back then was that commuter rail would not survive in Boston, except for some limited service maybe to places like Attleborough. If the Haverhill service did survive it would use the "Wildcat" branch and the Lowell Line to north station, much as 2 daily trains do now. The Red Line was also supposed to go to Arlington but never went past Alewife. Also note that the Quincy-Braintree service was essentially a replacement for the Old Colony/New Haven service, which was abandoned in 1959, but was reinstated in 1997 and is now quite popular.
I'm looking for some help finding subway station signs for sale, I'm looking for the black signs that contain the lines serving on them in the circle symbols if anyone can help me find such signs or where to purchase them that would be of great help.
There are small ones for sale at Transit Museum Gift Shops. I have Grand Central, and my brother has Shea Stadium. Others are Astor Place, Coney Island and Times Square (there are others, I can't remember them).
I purchsed Union Square from there
The ones I remember:
JaySt-Boro Hall
Wall St(4,5)
Chambers St(1,2,3)
Union Square
Times Square
Yankee Stadium(C,D,4)
Shea Stadium
125St(A,B,C,D)
Stillwell Av
34St-Penn Station
Astor Pl
47-50 Rockefeller Ctr
I have Union Square and Times Square. I am looking for 34St.
BM34x
You don't say whether you are looking for replicas or the genuine article.
As mentioned by other posters, the Transit Museum stores carry small replica signs. I don't have any of these signs, so I don't remember how much they were selling for in the stores. (Actually, when I learned that the stores didn't have signs for Jamaica, for Woodhaven Blvd., or for anything else in Queens besides Shea Stadium, I just went away dejected, and never checked the price.) I would guess that they are in the $10 neighborhood.
For actual signs, there is a place that I learned about from a post on this board around a month ago -- a store which priamarily sells used furniture, located on the north side of Houston St., a few blocks east of Broadway.
When I went there, I saw about a half-dozen actual signs -- most from recent years, and one or two from farther back. These signs are very heavy, and are also extremely expensive.
For instance, there was one sign there that looked to be from the 1990s. It was a long rectangular black sign which came from a station that serves lots of lines (I think it was Fulton/Bway-Nassau), so it was festooned with line markers. I believe the sign also had an "Exit" indication written on it, along with an arrow. I don't remember the exact price that the man there quoted me for this sign, but it was definitely in excess of $200.
Ferdinand Cesarano
OK..OK..you all chewed me out on the Museum being in the Bronx... I was just too excited when I posted the message. as you could tell from the misspellings.
So the abandon station thing is out huh? How come the homeless people in New York get to go to all the best places? Here are some questions..hope you can help me out-
1.- While doing some nite time barhopping last summer, I was on the West side of town near the Meat packing district and I saw what seams to be an old elevated tight of way that went in and out of buildings. Was this a form of a railroad spur?
2. What is a fun pass?
3. Besides the Museum in BROOKLYN,is there any other location, such as a library or visitors center that would have photos, displays or exhibits on the building of the NYC Subway system?
Thanks..
ROB
1. I'm not a New Yorker, don't know anything about number 1.
2. Fun Pass is a one day pass. It costs $4 and is good from the time it is used until 3AM the next morning.
3. The transit museum store in Grand Central has some stuff but for the real thing, the only place to go is Brooklyn. If you can, take a (2) or a <5> under the river for a last run on the redbirds before they go to the scrapyard.
In answer to question #1: this was the old NYC West Side freight line. It has been out of service for many years.
The other questions were answered by WMATAGMOAGH, I'll not repeat the answers here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Re: #2 , remember that the fun pass is NOT available in token booths. You must purchase the fun pass at a Metrocard Vending Machine or select retailers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last year I was bicycling south from the George Washington Bridge and came upon a shopping mall built into what was obviously a former railroad passenger station. Since the terrain is far too hilly for a main line, I figure it must be a trolley line. A street leading south from the parking lot was narrower than most, but it seemed the proper width for a two-track trolley's separated right of way. Does anyone know about this presumed line?
Where was it? Most of Earth is south of the George Washington Bridge.
"Where was it? Most of Earth is south of the George Washington Bridge."
Uh, Fort Lee.
The person never even mentioned which side of the Hudson they were on!
Fort Lee, N.J. it's in the Title of the post
I'm stupid.
Prior to the opening of the George Washington Bridge, there was a ferry from (I believe) 125th St. in Manhattan across the Hudson River to New Jersey. There was a trolley line which came down the Palisades to meet the ferry (via a series of hairpin turns).
Was this building located at the former ferry terminal on the New Jersey side?
-- Ed Sachs
Ed Sachs asked, "Was this building located at the former ferry terminal on the New Jersey side?"
No, this apparent former passenger station is not on the water; it is on top of the Palisades, about half a mile south of the GW bridge, which in turn is about two miles north (rather, uptown) of 125th St. The apparent former right of way is a residential street in Ft Lee, maybe a quarter mile east of Route 9W. It runs straight south from the former station, or rather parallel to the Hudson, south by southwest and a point or a point and a half south, in nautical terms.
To me this suggests that it was not a terminus for the 125th St ferry, but for a line carrying passengers along the ridge to other towns, perhaps as far as Jersey City though later development kept me from tracing the line for more than about a mile south. I'll have to bicycle across the bridge again, some pleasant weekend this month, to get the exact street location. Maybe I can also find a sign that it heads down to the Hudson in a series of hairpin curves, which would refute my hypothesis and indicate it was a connection to the ferry.
Hey, I wonder if I can find a good contour map of Ft Lee and points south, on the Web. Now, if I could find an early Twentieth Century Northeast Joisey trolley map, it would be easy.
Half a mile south of the GWB sounds an awful lot like Palisades Park.
NAW, palisades amusement park was 1/4 south of the GW.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe you may be referring to Palisade Junction, which was the junction between 2 PSCOT trolley lines - the Hudson River Line, which went from the ferry at Edgewater to Paterson, and the Coytesville line, which ended in Fort Lee just north of the GWB. I've traced out both in detail, there are tons of remains (like bridge pilings in the Neversink River and the remains of the Hudson River escarpment).
My memory and geographic knowledge of the area may be a bit rusty, but I suggest you consult either the Hudson River Line book or the Public Service Trolley Lines book. Arnold Joseph (212-532-0019) or Kevin Farrel (trainbooks.com) may be able to sell you either, or both.
The Neversink river is entirely in New York state!
That's a very interesting name for a river, I must say.
The original translation from the Indian language was Navesink
True. There's a Navesink River in Monmouth County, NJ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CM> I believe you may be referring to Palisade Junction, which was the junction between 2 PSCOT trolley lines - the Hudson River Line, which went from the ferry at Edgewater to Paterson, and the Coytesville line, which ended in Fort Lee just north of the GWB.
Thank you kindly, Conrad. So my estimate that the station was so big that it had to be a terminal was only a little off. It's a junction. I've bicycled from Fort Lee to Paterson to see the Great Falls, but the road goes straight down the west face of the Palisade through Bogota to the Hackensack River. Although the head that road on Route 9W is only a couple blocks from the former station, now a small shopping mall, I imagine that's a mite too steep for a trolley line, which must have gone elsewhere. Perhaps there's a remnant of the Coytesville line's terminal to be found north of the GWB.
CM> My memory and geographic knowledge of the area may be a bit rusty, but I suggest you consult either the Hudson River Line book or the Public Service Trolley Lines book.
Thanks again; I'm sure the way to get real knowledge is to find the right old books. Presumably the fact that I've heard of neither of those books indicates my ignorance rather than their rarity. On the other hand, my favorite rail history tool is the bicycle. What it lacks in scholarly effectiveness it makes up by combining two of my pleasures. Add the pleasure of correspondence with nice people who know their stuff, and I've got a perfect day of knowledge-seeking.
Glad you found the info useful. BTW, if you're ever near Garden State Plaza, the driveway is built on the ROW of the Hudson River Trolley line. Opposite the mall is a perfectly preserved section of the ROW, complete with rails used as bollards to discourage trespassers. It goes right past Carretta Trucking's yard.
My old Bergen-Rockland atlas is full of pencil marks from my own archaeological escapades. I stopped when I ran out of old carbarns to find.
Email me privately and I can give you better info on the Hudson River Line book (I have it at home), ISBN # etc. If you are interested.
[So the abandon station thing is out huh?]
Well, not completely ...
If you take the 7th Ave, just before 96th is an abandoned station. For others that you may be able to get a quick look at while riding by see the FAQ section of this site.
Another is at Essex & Delancey Street ... it's a big trolly terminal. Some of which you can see from the platform. I was on a Museum tour that got us in there ... O/H wire, trackways, etc. still there.
Another is Broadway - East NY lots of trackways that terminate, a yard and three lines to choose from to get you there. Go south on the L for some more trackways & abandoned platforms at next station, BUT watch out for the Hippos ;-)
Mr t
There are no hippos on the Eastern Division :)
--Mark
Or water buffaloes, for that matter. Now, THAT'S a good nickname for a 75-footer.:-)
[Or water buffaloes, for that matter. Now, THAT'S a good nickname for a 75-footer.:-)]
Sorry no "Rim Shot" for that one ....
A water buffalo has horns, not anything like the horns on a hippo. A water buffalo can get up to a good charge when it wants to versus a Hippo never wants to. I call the R-46 a Rino or a Hippo Wana Be, it isn't cared for a well as a hippo so it has to try harder and seems to move a little faster, but it's still big and scary. I don't like being swallowed be either.
Mr t__:^)
In all fairness, I wasn't looking for a rim shot, so that's OK. You can substitute any large animal you want. I was thinking more in terms of the size and length of those cars rather than speed or lack thereof.
I really don't have anything bad to say about the R-46s except for the occasional out-of-tune door chime. As for the R-68s, the horse is already dead, and I'm not going to beat it anymore.
91st Street on the 7th Avenue line is usually lit - not sure why, but it has been every time I've been past it in the last year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's the one I was talking about ... most of the station is still intact.
Mr t__:^)
You might consider calling the Transit Museum and asking if you can have a peek at their archives. All the pix you ever wanted and then some. I do not know what there policy is towards this or the hours, but it's worth a call.
Try the education department at 718-243-8601.
--Mark
The Green Line between Anacostia and Branch Avenue will open on March 17, 2001, completing the original 103 mile system. It may open on January 13, 2001 if it is ready before that date.
A virtual tour is on Metro's web site (if you can find it, it is a .pdf document). Wayne, I suggest you check it out and use it to update the Line by Line page, it has some pretty good info.
BTW, if any Subtalkers plan on going to the opening, post on the board. I plan on attending, maybe we will meet up.
I've checked the diagrams out- the only one where I'm going to have to make changes is at Branch avenue. I like that hairpin curve going into the yard! Didn't know that was there. They're in error - Branch Avenue isn't really "at grade", it's in a shallow cut. I've seen a sneak peek at it. Underground station Congress Heights is the same as Georgia Avenue-Petworth.
I guess I'll have to keep listening to find out whether they're going to beat the 3/17/2001 date. It would be nice to get it open even sooner, if possible.
I wonder how they're making out with the environmental impact study on the extension to Summerfield/Largo Town Centre.
I have to update some of the station names somewhere down the road; the one they stuck poor "U" Street with is ridiculous - U Street-African American War Memorial-Cardozo - do they have enough room on the pylon for it?
wayne
I told you. That station is structurally unsound and they need a way to raise the columns to the ceiling to provide support!
LOLROTFLMHO!
BTW it's a WAFFLE design.
w.a.y.n.e.
They can do what they did at Woodley Park. Turn your head 90 degrees to the left to see what it will probably look like.
__________________________
U Street/African American |
Civil War Memorial-Cardozo|
.... CIVIL War Memorial?!!! OK what ELSE can we add to it? What's the name of that theatre that's up that way (it has an unusual name) - what other points of interest are up there? There's that wonderful Diner up on Florida Avenue NW as well, I hope it is still there; they had the best soul food I have had in DC - rivalled only by Sylvia's here in Harlem, NY (126th St. & Malcolm X Bvld).
wayne
They've got some tricky names there: the Lincoln Theatre and the Florida Avenue Grill :-)
I think they are going to rename "Foggy Bottom/GWU" to be:
"Foggy Bottom/GWU/Almost Georgetown/Kennedy Center/Washington Circle/State Department/Tower Records/Not Quite Lincoln-Vietnam-Korea Memorials/Einstein Statue/E St. Expressway/No Relation to Bruce Springsteen"
LOL!
Now if only they can do something about the dismal lighting conditions at Foggy Bottom.....it's literally living up to its name there. Dim, dimmer, dimmest. They need to white-wash the vaults.
wayne
Wooly Mammoth Theatre? Is that what you are thinking?
YES, that is its name. It was on the tip of my tongue.
I think the diner's simply called the "Florida Avenue Diner".
BTW - do you happen to know when Metrobus eliminated the "C" and "D" Street NE route by truncating the #42 to Gallery Place/Chinatown?
wayne
> BTW, if any Subtalkers plan on going to the opening, post on the board. I plan on attending, maybe we will meet up.
Count me in. :)
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon, Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez 201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her Dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the Powerhouse exhibit.
It is not a secret that I have gone by many names, but now it's your turn to choose which one it is you liked better.
Official voting will take place by responding in the messages. For secret ballot, complete the form below:
Every person entering the survey enters for a chance to win a $4 Metrocard Fun Pass (I'm not joking!) and operator status in the SubTalk Live chatroom. In the event of multiple votes, the latter will take precedence. If one is discovered using multiple e-mails to vote, that person will be disqualified and votes reduced to one.
An alternative prize will be available for out of towners for whom the Fun Pass means nothing.
Persons voting by public ballot who do not use their e-mail in their messages will be required to submit a separate secret ballot.
Only handles which have been used to post within the last 7000 messages will be accepted for secret ballot, others must vote publicly.
Fun Pass winning subject to the successful completion of transit quiz
Self-plug
I'm not talking about Your handles, I'm talking about my handles.
Hey Pigs, what about A Post-It-Note? I do believe this was another of your personalities....
-Stef
It was never intended as a permanent one, and so therefore is excluded.
How about a complete list of the handles that may be included in the voting?
The list is right there!
Yeah, WHERE?
wayne (Lactobacillus GG) (R-6-2 variety)
If you use IE, it's in the initial message.
If you use Netscape, I posted a response about Netscape's inability to handle the iframe tag, so it doesn't appear. There's a direct link.
I have problems e-mailing out of Netscape, so I e-mailed the vote out of CompuServe directly.
wayne
Sounds like a GG with lactose intolerance.:-)
No it's an R-6-2 with several cups of yogurt and a package of Liederkranz left under one of the wicker seats. On a hot summer's day , of course.
wayne
Don't tell me 1277 figures in this story. Hope that yogurt isn't/wasn't spoiled. OTOH, you didn't say anything about a sick passenger.:-)
If you do not see the form in the above message Click Here to see it.
.....I vote for the handle larry redbird..!!
hey, i use to be TMC/MCI, but i like kame better
Steve: Monday night I posted a response to your query about D-Types in service in 1965 but it seems to have dropped off the board. Here's the response.I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In April 1965 there were as many as nine trains still in service on the West End Express which a few appearances on the West End Local and the Sea Beach Express. When they were removed from service on July 23 the following units were still in service 6019,6022,6030,6038,6043,6048,6080,6089,6093,6095,6101,6103,6104,6106 and 6112.
Larry,RedbirdR33
6019, 6095, 6112.... STILL GOING! Can NOTHING defeat these behemoths?
"Yes", says Father Time. "Rust..."
wayne
6095 doesn't appear to have suffered much from the ravages of rust. It helps to be stored indoors.
Gentle behemoths might be a better way to describe the Triplexes. They didn't pick fights the way the BMT standards did, except for those two which tussled at Stillwell Ave. in 1955.:-)
Larry, as always, thanks a bunch. Fred will be interested to know those last Triplexes made a few cameo appearances on his Sea Beach before departing for good.
Steve: I think I must have used disappearing ink on these two messages. Here's the response to your question about 11 car trains on the Flushing:Steve: The Bluebirds were placed in service on the Flushing Line starting September 26,1963 and R-12,14 and 15 began being transfered back to the mainline. R-17s 6500-6549 which had been transfered to Flushing in November 1962 began returning a little bit later, November 4,1963. The last R-12,14 and 15 left Flushing on April 17,1964 while the first Redbirds arrived on March 15,1964 and stayed until after July 23,1964. The last R-17s left for the mainland in January of 1965. Apparently the TA did not wish to mix the older R's with the Bluebirds whereas a cleaned up maroon R-17 could mix with the Redbirds although I did see maroon R-17s as the 11th car on Bluebird trains at times.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
By Redbirds, you're not referring to mainline R units, are you? I'm afraid I'm a bit confused.
I find it a bit ironic that the TA didn't want to mix older equipment (R-12s, R-14s) with the R-36s when all those car classes were capable of doing so, especially since the R-12s and R-14s never again ran in solid trains except for the ones on the 3rd Ave. el.
Steve: I was referring to the R-33 Redbirds 8806-9305. Some where transferred to the Flushing to protect the service until enough R-33 Bluebirds 9306-9345 and R-36 Bluebirds 9346-9523 and 9558-9769 were on hand. I believe that the reason this was done was to have what was then the newest and brightest cars running on the Flushing Line. The R-12,14 and 15's were all showing there age by this time and the R-12 and R-14's had a different roof configuration.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
OK, thanks. Oh and speaking of the Triplexes, you don't suppose the three surviving units could have run in the same train during those last days, do you?
Steve: I don't see why not though I couldn't say for certain. The D's usually ran with four units giving the appearance of a twelve car train. When the D's made an encore appearance on the Culver Shuttle in 1974 they ran 6019 and 6095. If they had tried to run all three on the Culver Shuttle we could have walked from 9 Avenue to Ditmas through the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wonder if they trotted out all three units for Class of '44. Two are visible; one of them is 6095. I still chuckle about the fact that they ran the train empty during filming, although you can see passengers scurrying down the platform to catch it as it slowed to a stop. Unfortunately, the camera was too far away to capture the bull and pinion gear sounds.
BTW, your original responses did post.
.....If you have problems getting this site which tells "" THE DIRT ON the LOS ANGELES RAIL"" .....Then check out this
site go to "" Yahoo"" first ...then enter { los angeles mta } ...click on ""mta la whistle blowers hot line""............
Then die laughing -------http://mtala.com/--------......!!!!!!!!!
The site is interactive and has all of the los angeles rail riders posting ALL OF THE DIRT HERE !!..............
Man does this sh-- stink !!!...........check this out & tell me what you think !!!!!
I will go back to Taipei to visit my parents June 21. I will stay there for three weeks.
I plan to visit Taipei's Rapid Transit System and write an introduction article about Taipei Subway. I am trying to apply for a permit so that I can take some pictures inside the system.
For those railfans like Salaam, they will be somewhat disappointed that there is no railfan window in the high-capacity lines, but there are railfan windows in the medium-capacity line, aka the Mucha line.
Chaohwa
It seems that Taipeinese have to much request on its system(Especailly on high-capacity lines. You can read it on this discussion board www.trtc.com.tw/disc8801 (Tranditional Chinese (BIG5 Code) available only as no one write englih there)). They think backward as they use the concept on subways by buses (Just read their suggestion on routing. Also they don't know that the one who manages (Department Of Rapid Transit System TCG (DORTS)) is not the one who operates (Taipei Rapid Transit Corporation) so it takes time to reply such suggestions.).
Mucha Line is a good example in Taipei Rapid Transit Sytem but it has lots of accident when it starts its operation. It is an automatic operating system (VAL from France but crtizers said it is elevated and its unreliable on its operation. People in Neihu said they wanted to have high-capacity line but the DORTS say no because of the routing problem (DORTS don't know where to start). At last DORTS decided to
use VAL to extent on its planned routing but go underground only.
Tamshui Line has beautiful view on ground and elevated section and it
becomes a scenic point in Taipei.
[It seems that Taipeinese have to much request on its system (Especailly on high-capacity lines. You can read it on this discussion
board http://www.trtc.com.tw/disc8801 (Tranditional Chinese (BIG5 Code) available only as no one write english there)).] The amendments are printed in bold. I'm really sorry about it(I forget to check).
I did look at the TRTC BBS board. Unfortunately most of the posts are not either good or informative. So I often ignore it.
Chaohwa
Even they write something about their work on the BBS. What is the use of writing there?
Neihu citizen dislikes VAL system, but the DORTS still impose and build it.
Good luck on your journey.
Singapore was similar (no railfan window) but, wearing a NYCTA tee-shirt displayed prominently got me some insider's views (cab ride, tower visit). You might try that approach, too, and see where it gets you.
--Mark
Thanks a lot, Mark.
I have several friends who knows Taipei's MRT system very well. We will have several field trips to tour the whole system.
Chaohwa
.......Take all the shots you can brother .....!!......happy shooting process your negatives there and HAPPY SHOOTING !!
thank you ( salaamallah ) ......
Several events that occurred today have led me to believe that the R-142s are running on the 5 shuttle. As impossible as it seems, it appears to be the only logical explanation.
1. The Bombardier set was split into two sets, 6301-6305 is sitting outside at E.180st yard.
2. The digital signs of the aforementioned set said:
S Shuttle
S Eastchester-Dyre
3. One of the R-62a sets on the 5 went to 238st, and probably won't leave until tomorrow morning. The R-62a is needed for OPTO operation on the shuttle.
I also saw 6301-6305 outdoors at 180th Street yard. But I doubt it was being used for the Dyre Shuttle. They were probably testing the signs. They do occasionally run the R62A #5 trains to 238th St. I once rode an R62A set up White Plains Road last summer and have seen them deadhead, probably back to 180th St to prepare for Shuttle service.
Nope, They are still being tested.
06/08/2000
That doesn't make sense to me, when the 30 day test period starts soon, the TA wants mileage on those cars for testing. Testing on the OPTO shuttle isn't really logging miles on them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Interesting article in todays News,
TA GETS SERIOUS
Peace,
ANDEE
SIDEBAR--TA Gets serious
Peace,
ANDEE
None of the proposed solutions would work.
Platform barriers won't work because different trains have the doors in different places, and squeezing through a second door would increase dwell time and cut capacity.
A light beam that cuts off power to the tracks when people go beyond the stripe would result in constrant shutdowns, due to vandalism or just mistakes.
Cameras and fines won't work unless there is a cop on every platform to enforce them.
My solution:
1) Go to OPTO systemwide. The conductor is supposedly there for safety, but what good do they do between stations?
2) Close the token booths, leaving riders to purchase tokens by machine or in stores.
3) Redeploy TA workers to the platforms, full time in busy stations and during rush hours, moving around the stations and then positioned on the platforms when a train pulls in during off-peak.
What good would cameras do anyway. Once somebody is pushed in front of a train, it doesn't matter that the camera was there. I think most people who have pushed somebody in front of a train, have been stopped right after by a good citizen. It's not like the camera is going to prevent somebody from pushing you into the tracks. What, is the penson who's watching the tape going to come on the PA and be like Excuse me, LAdy in the red dress, please step away from the platform because there is some weird looking guy standing right behind you? Nothing will work. Just keep the subway like it is. All the rider has to do is be aware of what's around him, and step back when the train comes.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
From the News story: "cops reported seven suicides, four attempted suicides and 14 accidents in which straphangers fell to the tracks. Eight of those were fatal."
I can understand how people on the platforms of stations can fall onto the tracks, but how can 14 staphangers fall out of the trains they were on?
Hi,
Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ?
What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the basement of former Belmont Hotel ?
Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ?
>>>Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ? <<<
Belmont's private subway car is in the colletion of the Branford Trolley museum in Connecticut
Branford Trolley Museum
>>>What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the basement of former Belmont Hotel ?<<<
Don't know
>>>Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ?<<<
The right of way is still there, no tracks or switches however.
Peace,
ANDEE
the door to the knickerbocker hotel is still on the shuttle platform at times sq.
Yup Shoreline Trolley Musuem has the car. You can see an interior shot in this months MTA Transit Transit TV Show, they hauled it out of the Barn with the R17 that they also have in the collection.
I know of no plans for the car but I'm just a nobody at the musuem and busy on 6688 trying to get it done by October.
{...busy on 6688 trying to get it done by October.]
Lou, are you kidding?
Your nickname should be "Capt. Handletime". :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Sure. The guy's who's been busting his back with this car deserves the most. I think you're talking to him:)
-Stef
I heard about your exploits, my good man.
You should be commended.
(Applause here please)
Doug aka BMTman
I second that sentiment. I watched him spend a day on the roof of the car, priming it, while I was scraping paint from the doorframe. And after he was done, he primed the section I spent the day stripping, even thought he'd probably rather have been taking a break.
Let's get him a gift or something.
Thanks for the sentiments, guys. I won't rest until 6688 wears a shiny new coat of red. The people know I'm dedicated to preserving a piece of history. The day I do finish with her, I'll be celebrating with Lou S., put on a tux, charge up the car, and we'll have a ribbon cutting ceremony during Autumn in NY. We'll send our precious SMEE car through the ribbon. Now the passengers who enter the car for the trip to Short Beach will find the car visually appealing.
But until then, there's much more to be done. I will be completing the last ounce of roof priming work shortly.
-Stef
You go Steff!!!
I'll be there on the 23rd and might have the wife along to help...
She wants to know why I spend so much time up there....
I'll get her to paint, don't want her touching the blow torch hehe.
>Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial
of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ? <
It is in the collection of the Shoreline Trolley Museum in Ct (Brandford Electric Railway ASSN)
There are no plans to do a restoration unless someone can come up with some very big $$. I asked that same question of a BERA executive last year and he estimates it would take about an amount in the low 6 figures to do a complete restoration. I did not have a chance to see it the last time I was there so I could not comment on the amount but I would not be suprised if the amount was accruarate.
>What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the
basement of former Belmont Hotel ? <
The door may still be there in the tunnel. See page 38 of Stan Fischlers's book - The Subway.
>Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ? <
The right of way still exists for about 15 feet but the connection itself has been long gone.
Never say never. If someone's willing to spend $, then it can happen. For every corporate big wig who donates cash to the restoration, he (or perhaps she) should be priviledged enough to ride in style. It's just a fanatsy, but heck, the Museum has to find some way to get somebody interested in restoring the Minnie. I'll give the shirt off my back to ride around City Hall Loop with her!
-Stef
You'd think either NY state or the MTA would be interested in it. I mean, the 100th aniverersy of the NY subway can't possibly be a quiet event...
A few years ago, a protocol was made on how to restore the car, with cost estimates. The trucks that could be used for the car are under another piece of equipment on the property. It would take a skilled craftsman who is well versed in restoration and fine woodworking to do the job. I believe that you will begin to see some sort of effort made as the 100th anniversary gets closer, and interest grows.
06/08/2000
Lou Shavell,'
Is there any running gear underneath "Minnie". Wasn't the car on the ground in a farm when found years ago? Also if restored, could "Minnie" run on her own power?
Bill "Newkirk"
Before getting to much into operational things, please remember that restorations don't happen overnight. Even if someone comes up with the big bucks, the Mineola is a one of a kind, and contains much original material, of which each item has to be evaluated and a course of action determined. Seashore's 'City of Manchester' looks nice, but a lot of original material was lost in the process, and there is little documentation and few preserved artifacts. The 'industry' has come a long way since then, and having recently seen the car, I understand the enormity of a conservation/restoration project. Its a great idea, but don't encourage Shore Line or the TA or some outside party to do an injustice to this magnificent, though decayed, relic. Relax and do it right, and if it takes 20 years - so be it!
Gerry
The good news is that Shoreline, like most museums I presume, spends a lot of effort to at least stablize it's fleet, i.e. prevent further rot/rust/etc. of the cars in it's collection so that SOMEDAY they can be restored. The past few months they have been doing this to Montreal Tramways rotory snow plow. It's the only surviving electric rotory plow and is now a bare skeleton (rotted exterior was removed), but she moves under her own power (with some sparks flying) and the rotor operates too.
There are a number of us there who would like to see restoration begin on the Mineola, but like Jeff H., Lou S., and Gerry have said she needs some specialized craftsman, that's a little beyond the sanding & painting that the 3/4 ton crew is capable of doing.
Mr t__:^)
This morning around 10 there were serious 1/2 hour to 1 hour delays on the downtown 4,5,6. A women gave birth at 14th Street and because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came. All trains were rerouted to the local track from 42nd to Brooklyn Bridge. Because of the wait and heat a guy in my R33 car (9300) fainted. He didn't cause a delay though- we got him out at 42nd.
-Harry
How many of us wish we could rightfully claim to have been born on a subway train? :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
"How many of us wish we could rightfully claim to have been born on a subway train? :-)"
How many of us would **admit** to having been conceived on a subway train? :^)
I'd guess there are more people doing that than we think. I remember working a Rockaway Park run in the eighties as a conductor and walking through the train on the flats to look for a newspaper and found an orgy party in the last car full of Beach Channel kids. At least three couples going at it. Sad thing was none of them had newspapers. Today, there are homeless people doing it in stations, cars and even in tunnels. I heard of a story three years back where a T/O threw his train into emergency for persons on the tracks, and went down to find the two on the platform zipping up their pants.
If you are referring to the J train incident, it was very much a true story but more like 7 years ago. Two homeless folks (they were male & female. No particullar relevance to this story) had pulled a mattress into what they thought was an abandoned section of a tunnel somewhere around Broad Street on the J. Perhaps intending to join the 40' deep club, they decided to engage in consentual sex between the code 100 rails that they apparently felt were unused. Of course, as luck would have it, the tunnel was not abandoned and the rails were not unused. Worse yet, in the throws of passion, what they must have thought of as 'the earth moving' was actually the tunnel vibrating due to a fast-approaching J train at about 2 PM. The T/O threw the train into emergency but sadly too late. The woman (on top during this particular encounter) was struck in the head by the coupler. The gentleman half of the duo forgot to move his foot from the rail and only remembered after he was several toes poorer than before. Both survived and now have their own spot in Webster's 'Unabridged' under unsafe sex.
Sounds like coming AND going at the same time!
:-)
Oh, great - now it's "Subway Schtoink" stories.:-)
You'd be amazed at the stuff that goes on durring the after hours. I've heard a few good stories about this. most don't bear being mentioned :)
How many rows were on the electric portion of the coupler
that struck the female?
Oh boy.... Talk about bringing a whole new meaning to unsafe sex. What in the heck were those people thinking about? In the case of the man, woman, and the R-42, apparently the R-42 penetrated the best and left an everlasting impact.
How does a conductor explain to passengers that there's a delay because of people on the tracks? "Attention passengers. There's a delay on this train due to people fornicating on the tracks, please be patient."
By the way, Train Dude, I was just wondering why the TA opted not to use the R110A coupler on the R142s. The coupler shaped like someone's genitals, always made those cars look like they were in a good mood. I guess you don't have to give them VIAGRA:)
-Stef
P.S. I'm half asleep which would expain my lunacy.
[P.S. I'm half asleep which would expain my lunacy.]
Stef, being half asleep is no excuse. Lunacy will NOT be tolerated here at SubTalk. Punishment will be swift and painfull!
:-)
I suppose that there are a number of sexual and racially stereotyping jokes that could answer your question. However, the question is a valid one even if we treat it seriously. My understanding is that the old reliable H2C coupler was no longer produced. Hence, the R-142 and R-143 were going to have a newer coupler. The Wabco Pin & Funnel type coupler on the R-110A has been used quite successfully on the LIRR since the M-1s. The OB type currently used on the R-44/R-46 was likely opted for based on cost and ease of maintenance. Despite the fact that the Hook Pin Bushing is subject to frequent replacement. The coupler has relatively few internal moving parts and, therefore, is more reliable. The LIRR type is apparently more maintenance intensive with little of no gain in reliability.
Seriously, Thank You for answering my question. In terms of mainetneance, the OB is a better coupler than the type which the LIRR uses. Too bad they stopped producing the H2 Head. As you stated, it was reliable.
-Stef
The pin type coupler was used on NJT Arrows and is still used today with some drawbacks, one including that they break easily when added on curves and especially with compromise couplers. I remember there was one curved section of track at the Meadows Maintainance complex in the 11KV yard with a mound of ten or so broken off pins, which also includes main shopping the car and dropping the drawhead. A lot of work just to try and add a train.
Use of the subway for romantic purposes is really just an urban version of a commonplace suburban activity. Almost since motor vehicles were invented, people have been using the back seats for more than just passenger carrying, if you catch my drift. There probably are tens of thousands of people alive today who were conceived in motor vehicles.* What you have described is merely the mass-transit version of that activity.
* = admittedly, motor vehicles are more frequently associated with the opposite end of the life span.
This actually brings up an interesting question - when was the first recorded birth on the subway, and when was the first recorded conception on the subway? And while we're at it (heh), how come we don't hear many stories of babies born on NJT or MN or the LIRR?
NJT I think once put in an FYI that a baby had been born on board one of the trains once. I believe they gave the kid a lifetime unlimited pass for bus, rail, light rail he can claim when he is 18.
"Use of the subway for romantic purposes is really just an urban version of a commonplace suburban activity."
Considering that big cities have always been a magnet for young single people out on their own for the first time, I would hazard a guess that couples coupled on the els (or "L"s in Chicago) long before the Model T became a mobile motel.
[This morning around 10 there were serious 1/2 hour to 1 hour delays on the downtown 4,5,6. A women gave birth at 14th Street and because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came.]
Good God, of all crazy things to cause a delay ...
There was some test plan to put nurses at major stations so they could check out the "sick pax" call and remove the passanger if it was safe to do that. I wonder what ever happened to that.
I saw one at Bowling Green once...
-Harry
Wonder if anyone offered to boil water.:-)
"because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came."
Put yourself in a similar position. you're incapacitated due to injury or illness on a crowded train. Do you surrender your health and safety to a possibly ill-trained transit worker for the sake of not delaying others on the train. OR do you want to be made comfortable and wait for trained EMS workers?
This morning there was a delay on the Oyster Bay line to NYC. One of the conductors said that when it rains real hard like it did last night, the diesel-electric engines have a rough time starting and getting up to speed. Is this a known problem with these new engines?.......
First I've heard of it, I hope my friend can tell me.
No sanders huh?
Was at the World Trade Center today. All the airline ticket counters moved to #5 WTC. But where's Amtrak? Nowhere that I saw. Closed that location did they? No way to win friends.
Joe C.
Amtrak is still telling people to see their local Travel Agent, the Big 7 Airlines(UA-AA-DL-CO-NW-US-TW) would like to get rid of travel agents all together, that is why they cut commissions 60 pct in the last 5 years. Try to get the lowest fare from a Airline on another carrier when you want to fly. Not directly with the airlines
Does anybody know the types of defect detectors commonly used on transit systems. I PAtCO I have seem several dragging equipment detectors and at the next there are little boxes with a DED sign that lights up when the detector is tripped. Do they have these on the NYCS? Does anyone know of Hotbox or wheel defect detectors installed anywhere? Are there any transit systems where the train operator must acknowledge a detector with a radio reply?
It's a transit system, not a class I !!!
No DEDs, no hotbox detectors, no slide fences, no grade crossings,
no medium approach medium, no FRA, no prior railway experience
needed to operate trains.
Well there are "wheel detectors" (like someone is gonna lose a wheel??) but they are used for checking the speed of the human person in control of the train....
As I just pointed out PATCO has dragging equipment detectors and I asked if any other transit system has any other type of defect detector. So at least some transit systems have defect detectors.
You asked specifically if they have DEDs on the NYCTS.
They don't. In fact, signals on our fair system are
quaintly archaic.
I may be wrong, but I'd classify PATCO as a regional/commuter
railroad, and I think it is under FRA jurisdiction. The New York
subway system is not under FRA and as such a lot of railroad
regs do not apply.
I am fiarly sure that PATCO is not an FRA railraod like PATH is. PATCo has more in common with The DC metro than it does with PATH. I am surprised with the number of dragging equipment detectors though. There are 2 in the philly tunnles and at least 3 between camden and haddonfield.
What about PATH?
We've all seen those little rails that are sometimes installed inside of the running rails. I was wondering how they are suposted to work and what safety function do they provide.
I think that they are to prevent the wheel flange from drifting too far in from the running rail, and thus help the wheels from derailing on a curve!
They reduce the likelyhood of a derailment on a sharp curve. As the truck of the trolley or subway car moves around a curve, there is force on the flange of the front outside wheel. The flange can tend to climb the rail. With a capture rail on the inside rail of the curve, the back of the inside wheel rubs against the capture rail preventing a derailment. Sometimes there will even be a capture rail on the outside rail of a curve. This is because the 2nd axle of the truck exerts a force opposite that of the front axle.
There are two things you could be looking at. Guard rails, which
would be installed inside the low (inner) running rail on a curve,
and what is variously known as safety rails or protect rails.
Guard rails steer the wheelsets around the curve.
Protect rails are found mostly on elevated structure and bridges
and prevent, in case of high-speed derailment, the cars from
sliding completely over the edge. They are also, as Evan mentioned,
sometimes used with heavy curves in tunnels.
A few years ago, there was a derailment on Amtrack in the marshes of northern New Jersey as a train was going across an improperly closed lift bridqe. It was later determined by the accident investigators that the train had derailed as it was entering the bridge, but stayed on the structure as it traveled until the other side because of the so-called "black rails" (i.e. the safety rails). Once on the other side, it tumbled an embankment and into the swamps. No lives were lost in a fall into the river below the bridge, however, since the black rails had functioned as designed.
subfan
They are also at station approaches to lessen the chances of a derailed train hitting the end of the platform.
Years ago my next-door neighbor worked at Tyco (HO toy trains). The first time she rode PATCO she thought the safety rails were "rerailers" and assumed derailments were common.
Bob
I hope you guys out there are aware that Los Angeles has its first chance to win the major sports title in 12 years, and the betting out here is that we're going to do it. The LA Lakers, who made a dramatic, come from behind move to win the decisive 7th game of the
Western Conference finals, open up tonight against the Indiana Pacers of Larry Bird. Go Lakers all the way. HOWEVER, there is no rapid transit to the Staples Center. The subway Red Line goes no where near it, and the Blue Line is a good move away. That's ridiculous and is one reason why New Yorkers should not raise a peep about transportation to sporting events. Want to go to Yankee Stadium? Three subway lines get you there; want to go to Shea and watch my Mets play? Ok, take the #7 train. They get you right to the stadium. All you have to do is cross the street. Boy I wish we had such transportation to get us to the Staples Center, Dodger Stadium, and Edison Field.
I thought Staples was next to the Convention Center, 1 -2 blocks from the Blue Line, and you have Metrolink to Anaheim
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I haven't been into the Lakers since the days of Kareem Abdul Jabbar -- IMHO -- one of the last true, humble, down-to-earth basketball players in the NBA. To him playing the game was more than just about making big money.
BTW, the Knicks will kick Laker butt BIG TIME next year!
Doug aka BMTman
Ha Ha! Come on Doug, what have you been smoking? The Knicks are over the hill. Ewing can hardly move and with only two guys who can shoot, well, you're in for a lot of trouble. But three things can help. One, the Eastern Conference sucks, secondly, the fans really get behind the team and the support is there, and thirdly, your colors are Blue and Orange, my favorite colors. I would love to see another Knicks-Lakers Finals. Maybe it will come to pass, and it will be shown that you were not smoking something.
I'd rather have Minneapolis win the championship, since Fort Wayne beat New York and I'd rather they not win another series.
Back to 2000, the Meadowlands has no rapid transit whatsoever. Don't tell me there are busses, that's not real rapid transit, it's transit for the carless. It's also impossible to walk to the Meadowlands from anywhere else, and probably impossible to get between the Raceway, Giants Stadium and Continental Arena.
Every team playing here (except for the horses and the Giants) want to move to Newark (or the west side in the Jets case).
Pigs: New York teams playing in New Jersey. What a disgrace. Where is the pride? New York teams should play in New York.
The Nets and Devils are New Jersey Teams
The Metrostars (Soccer) are both New York and New Jersey.
Who are LA Lakers? What is basketball? Sports on this BB are way off topic! Even race relations are more on topic than sports. Let's please stop talking about sports here, already half the papers are filled with yesterdays scores, etc.
Arti
Amen! And (not noting anyone in particular here) if you want to carry on a conversation, do it by e-mail! This is not an e-mail board; there's no reason for us to know your personal business.
David
....What you are not hearing about is how the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL ....& the ""pico station""....
Is another rail transit falure here in lost angeles.....The ""pico station ""is almsot unacesable to the STAPELS welfare stadium.!!
you have to cross several parking lots and TWO SETS OF TRACK and then walk almost backwards to finally ENTER.
the ""pico station"".from the south then walk another block NORTH .....totally out of the G. D. way damnn....!!!!!.....
Note;.....no direct access to the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE STATION .........aint that a bitch.......................!!!!!!!!!
What I ment to say is that urban politics is more rail related than sports scores.
Arti
Agreed, but not by much. We often stray far afield from the subject we're supposed to be discussing, which is rail passenger transportation with an emphasis on the New York City metropolitan area. I meant no disrespect toward Arti with my previous post. I was only attempting to add to his statement. If I didn't make myself clear, I apologize.
David
I didn't think that, but I realized that my post was too ambiquous.
Arti
Welcome to the David and Arti show. Talk about messages that belong on E-Mail. But I don't mind. It makes for some reading. That's the difference between us. I don't mind your non-subway excahanges, but you seem to be bothered by those of us who combine the two.
You'll be on the guest list :-)
Arti
....the blue line pico station aint marching at all .....
Yeah, besides, the LA Lakers are looossers. Old news...
....the pico BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL is a total failure......next to the STAPELS CENTER ....built by CORPORATE WELFARE ..( like giants stadium in sanfrancisco ) Man !! I am sure glad I didnt co-operate with census 2000..!!!
now who is going to tell post that the pico blue line station next to that public-welfare STAPELS CENTER is a success ??
subject says it all
The only difference between this thread and the myriad other off-topic threads is that this one STARTED off-topic.
-Hank
Basically, by wasting your time trying to be a netcop (I'm not talking specifically to anyone), more bandwidth was wasted with these "THIS IS OFF TOPIC" responses and more messages were posted on this thread than would otherwise have been.
Hey Arti: If you noticed my piece, I also mentioned transportation as related to sports. We on this website are a pretty flexible bunch who happen to know a lot of things besides subway. Come on and get with the program.
IMHO the best thing about sports it to watch it, not talk about it.
Arti
I am confused about the term Conrail.
When I was a kid, the MTA passenger railroad that is today called Metro-North was called Conrail. However, nowadays "Conrail" refers to a private freight carrier which (according to their website) operates in NJ and Philly, as well as in Detroit.
What is/was the relationship between the Consolidated Rail Corp. and the MTA?
Furthermore, I have found the term "Conrail" on a number of current maps of NYC, most recently on the website Mapblast (see map below):
Notice that the tracks in the center of the page and south of Fulton St. carry the label "Conrail Railroad". Curiously, these same tracks carry the label "PA Railroad" once they cross north of Fulton St.
Is the presence of the "Conrail" name on this map simply due to a lack of updating? I ask because I do notice some other outdated info on this map, such as the presence of the LIRR Rockaway Division tracks with the label "Li Railroad", and the only-recently-outdated label "Interborough Pkwy." on what is now called the Jackie Robinson Pkwy. (By the way, if you ask me, it is no compliment to have that broken-down deathtrap of a highway named after you!)
Or, is this map just totally unreliable for rail info? I ask this in light of the quirky and rather arbitrary way in which subways are represented.
Most subways are not shown at all, but some get represented with the railroad track symbol. (The Brighton Line alone gets the label "Nycta Subway".) However, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to which subways get this treatment. Some elevated trains are shown (Franklin St. shuttle; A train in Queens), some not (J train). Also, some underground trains are shown with the railroad track symbol (A train near Nostrand). Not terribly consistent.
So, what is the current denotation of "Conrail", and, what is its history?
Ferdinand Cesarano
Conrail was a government-sponsored corporation that took over the assets of several bankrupt private railroads in the early 1970's. These included the Penn Central, Reading, Central of New Jersey, and some others. Conrail later was privatized, and about a year ago was taken over by CSX and Norfolk Southern and its routes split among them. That Mapquest map of Queens is incorrect, as you surmised; the "Conrail" route at the center of the page is now part of the New York & Atlantic, formerly the LIRR (I don't believe that Conrail ever owned it).
Although Conrail was essentially a freight-only operation, it did operate what are now the Metro-North passenger lines for a time as successor to the Penn Central.
I believe the actual date was Apr 1st 1976. Penn Central was the result of the merger between New York Central and Pennsylvania RR's, and was included in Conrail. Erie-Lackawanna was the result of the merger of the Erie and Delaware, Lackawanna & Western RR's and also was included. The Lehigh Valley was another RR included. I think that the New York, New Haven & Hartford RR was also part of it. A lot of great old railroad names disappeared with the creation of Conrail.
NYC + PRR (and later NYNH&H) = Penn Central (late 1960's)
Erie + DL&W = Erie Lackawanna (early 1960's I believe)
4/1/76:
PC + E-L + LV + RDG + CNJ = CONRAIL
Conrail as legally known as the Consolidated Rail Corporation.
They operated the lines now known as Metro-North under contract to the MTA.
The line through Brooklyn & Queens, as shown on the map, was originally New York Connecting Railroad, owned jointly by the New Haven and the Long Island. Conrail had trackage rights over this line, and most likely when the map data was produced, was the ONLY thing you'd see on the line.
I remember in the mid-1960's, all the freights on the line were New Haven, pulled by pairs of the ex-Virginian rectifier electrics (NH class EF-4, 300-311). All the switching, however, such as at the Bay Ridge yard, was done by LIRR Alco S-2's. In the late 1960's, NH started sending a lot of diesel-powered trains down the line and the electric disappeared.
[The line through Brooklyn & Queens, as shown on the map, was originally New York Connecting Railroad, owned jointly by
the New Haven and the Long Island. Conrail had trackage rights over this line, and most likely when the map data was
produced, was the ONLY thing you'd see on the line.]
I guess, originally, Amtrak service to NY State and New England originated at Grand Central, right? *Now* Amtrak uses the NYCR over Hellgate for New England service, and the old NY Central West Side Frieght line for "Empire" service so they can centralize their NY "hub," but I recall hearing my uncle tell stories of loco power switches somewhere on the NY Central Albany line (Poughipskie? <--forgive butchered spelling) for electric service into Grand Central in the 70's. Also, I remember Amtrak's continuing to operate a ticket window in Grand Central when I first got here in 1996, up until they began the rennovation.
Can anyone elaborate?
Prior to about 1969 (and AMTRAK), only through trains to Boston (from Washington) used the hell Gate Bridge routing; trains originating/terminating in New York used Grand Central Terminal. Around 1969 (or maybe it was 1970), the Penn Central moved the so-called "long distance" New York to Boston (and Springfield) trains over to Pennsylvania Station. (Note that, originally, the United Aircraft TURBOTRAIN utilized Grand Central.) Electric power still changed from the New Haven EP-5s to Pennsylvania GG-1s at Penn Station, until the pantographs of the GG-1s were modified to mesh with the New Haven's catenary (I believe it was after the inception of AMTRAK that enough GG-1s were modified to hold down the service). The electrics ran from New York to New Haven, where the diesels took over for the run north.
Running north to Albany (on the Hudson line), AMTRAK utilized the former CUT (Cleveland Union Terminal) electrics as far as Croton-Harmon, where the E-8s (and, later, SDP-40Fs) took over. In the latter part of the 70s, AMTRAK acquired some former New Haven FL-9s; these replaced the CUT electrics to Croton-Harmon. Later, the FL-9s ran all the way to Albany, where the SDF-40Fs and/or FP-40Hs took over. The Fl-9s remained after Amtrak moved this service from Grand Central Terminal to Pennsylvania Station (around 1990), utilizing the former New York Central west side freight line.
My impression at the time was that the federal government, which created Conrail, thought it was a freight railroad and the new entity was surprised to discover that it had commuter operations (PC + E-L + RDG + CNJ). These were spun off to local authorities as quickly as feasible.
Bob
It took 5-7 years before Conrail turned over the commuter lines to the Regional Authorities
....well, that's "quickly as feasible" when you're dealing with governmenta agencies!!!
As I posted before the old map in the haddonfield PATCo station was labeled "Conrail Seashore Trains".
Hey Morons!! You forgot to include the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. That became part of Conrail to. Just because most people usually ignore South Jersey dosen't mean they can ignore our own little railroad.
[Hey Morons!!...]
Sorry, Mike. I downloaded your post without realizing it was addressed to others.
Bob
May I offer the following analysis. In 1972, the Trustees in bankruptcy for Penn Central did a study which noted that 80 % tonnage was on 20 % of the line. They asked the court to let them junk the "underperforming lines." Instead Congress created Conrail to take over and operate ALL of the bankrupts(Reading-CNJ had been for years and Hurricane Agnes wiped out E-L in '73. LV was bankrupt but owned by PRR(Penn Central) New Haven which had also been bankrupt for several years was ordered into PC by the ICC) Conrail was supposed to revive everything so that the industries would have stable service. However, iommediately after assuming control the pruning process began with the wholesale elimination of much of the Erie west of New York State, the end of Jersey Central other than the Raritan suburban line(which includes the connection to the Reading route to Philly) After the Harley Staggers RR reform legislation in 1980, Conrail wwas essentially given a free hand to slice and dice at will resulting in wholesale line closures. Ultimately Conrail ended up with a map not very different from the 1972 study. Having revived the otherwise moribund capitalist enterprise with a massive injection of "welfare for corporations" the Reagan Administration thenb arranged to sell the now healthy railroad at a bargain price to the private sector. Norfolk Southern wanted to buy but CSX was able to frustrate them. Conrail went private flourished, and finally was ponce again targeted by CSX and NS resulting in today's results.
Hurricane Agnes "Wiped Out" EL in June 1972 - NOT '73, the filing was on June, 21, the week after the tragedy. EL FOREVER!!!
[Reagan Administration then arranged to sell the now healthy
railroad at a bargain price to the private sector. Norfolk Southern wanted to buy but CSX was able to frustrate them.]
Secretary of Transportation Elizabeth Dole tried to sell CR to NS for $1.2 billion. CR had $800 million cash, so it was net $400 million. Congress transportation committee chairmen John Dingell and Jim Florio (who just lost the NJ Senate primary) stopped the give-away and CR wound up going public with an IPO that netted $1.6 or $1.8 billion, after the $800 million was taken away and given to NASA, which had just suffered the Challenger explosion and several failures trying to launch weather satellites.
Bob
I believe the gov't took Conrail public some time in 1985, before NASA began it's horrid series of launch failures.
January 28, 1986 is a day I will never forget, as I watched the shuttle explosion live. I was home sick with the flu that day. EVERY station, including WPIX-TV, WNEW-TV, and WOR-TV interrupted all of their normal broadcasting to cover it. Only time I ever saw EVERY station on the dial broadcasting the exact same thing.
-Hank
I really was heartbroken, I knew Judy Resnick quite well, from a Jewish Singles group we were both active in the LA area in the 70s.
They were all broadcasting something about OJ's low speed chase down the freeway in LA in 1994.
The Con in Conrail presumably stood for Consolidated, but "con" is more like it. The Northeast was left with a monopoly railroad, which cash cowed it for profit. Only the recent breakup has revived what the government took away. But if they continue to allow all these mergers, we'll be left with just two of everything. Welcome back inflation.
There is presently an 18 month moratorium on rail mergers
while the feds "study" the problem.
There will be 4 US Majors, Union Pacific, BNSF, CSX and NS, with many smaller lines. Now the airlines want to merge United and Usless Air, American and Northworst. Trying to screw the public again.
Too many mergers. It's scary. Monopoly pricing power means the end of the low inflation years. Once all the big corporations get together, the cost of everything and the quality of everything will be similar to...the MTA.
What we need is a President who is like Teddy Roosevelt, who was not afraid to get down and dirty with the big corporations. Al Gore, think not, Georgie Bush, never, he is owned by Insurance, banking and oil. Ralph Nader and the Green Party, not enough clout
[Hurricane Agnes wiped out E-L in '73]
Didn't Hurricane Diane cause severe damage to the pre-merger Lackawanna in the 1950's?
It did, even more severe than what Agnes caused to EL in '72. Hazel (1954) also made a mess of things, although it was fading by the time it reached Pennsylvania.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you identify at a station where a train is heading to, which are the intermidiate stops, if it is local or express and the alternative main routes it will take?
Thanks for all your answers!
Trains have side destination boards. The two terminals are listed, and you can probably figure out where's it yourself. To figure out the intermediate stops, get a map! The conductor will anounce whether it will run local or express when the doors are about to close. You can also determine it based on which track it's on.
What do you mean by alternative main routes?
Thank you all for your answers!!
By alternative routes I meant when a train, to reach the same final destiantion, can go to it, starting at the same terminal, via route "A" or "B", calling at different stations, before returning to the main route again.
I think in that case the train should have a different letter/number designation, depending on the routes (or stops, like line 1 and 9.
Thank you again. I am a nyc subway fan from Buenos Aires ARGENTINA. I asked this question because here, our lines are too simple: each route (we only have five: A,B,C,D,E) has only two final destinations (North or South end terminal). No trains go back in the middle of the tunnel, stop at different (or at only some of them) stations than the others or run express.
At most stations there are overhead signs along the platform edge showing the line name or number and the destination(s) and hours/days of operation or "All times". The signs may say:
A 8th Ave Express via Central Park West to 207 st Manhattan. Late Night via Local or
E Queens Express to Jamaica Center. Late night via Local.
When some tracks are not used the signs will state : All service on opposite Track.
As far as alternate routes- service changes are posted near the booth and along the walls and columns of the stations.
Service changes are also available at the MTA website: mta.nyc.ny.us
Click New York City Transit, Click service notices, subway
1. Where a train is headed: On trains with roll signs, the sign on top is the northern destination and the one on the bottom is the Southern destination. Usually, the conductor will anounce the Boro of the destination unless already in that boro or at the first stop. In those cases, the conductor will announce the last stop. On trains with front destination signs, that tells where it's going. On trains with digital signs, simply wait until it shows a station name. If the name is short, it will have "to" followed by the station name. Since half the time the sign is wrong, look at the platform sign.
2. Intermediate stops: IRT (numbered) routes have strip maps on the inside of the cars, except the #3 line and the Times Sq. Shuttle. Use the regular map for all other lines.
3. Express or Local: On the IRT, look for a diamond number for express service in Queens or the Bronx. All other lines or areas check which track its on, center tracks are express, some exceptions apply (50th/6th, downtown; 71/continental, Jamaica Bound; 168st A, C, either direction; Canal St. 8th ave line, uptown; and a few others). Check the overhead signs.
4. Alternate main routes: I assume you mean multiple routes under the same designation. For the 5, look at the front destination sign. The side signs at the beginning and end of rush hour are usually wrong for the southern dest. The northern dest. is usually correct. For the A as well as the few 2, 4, 5 lines that go to New Lots, check the side sign. Some trains turn in the middle of the route, like the R,and F, check the side sign to see.
Today's fire was between Friendship Heights and Bethesda. This was one day after the one at White Flint. Trains are not running between those two stations and some MetroBuses were in shuttle service (I believe they were from Montgomery Division) supplementing the 42 Ride-On Bus. I saw 915103A and it was packed so much that there was a person standing past the standee line. I did not enter the system itself since I had my bike and didn't want to lock it up. I got some pics, I will post them when I make my web page over the summer.
51 MPH on an R44 A train coming home today through the Cranberry St. tube. HA!
Done one better, Brooklyn Bound, same tube, 54 MPH on car 5220!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
They're lemons, but they're lemons that can really boogie ...
The R44's were certainly lemons, but now the juice is squeezed out. These babies can haul!!
Had to go to W4th the other evening. Hopped a B at Bedford Pk, deciding not to die of old-age waiting for the s/b D. As they held the B at 145th, I heard the familiar wheezing sounds of the arriving s/b A. Up I went. I'll tell you, that A was moving. Even leaving 59th, there was barely a hesitation; we shot right down to 42nd.
Can't believe I'm saying it but the 44's are fast becoming my favorite cars.
Joe C.
You don't suppose the unthinkable - field shunting restoration - has happened?!?:-)
i don't think so! you probably boarded a train with all 32 motors (4 per car x 8 car train/40 motors in 10 car consist) working. even though you may not see a motor fault light lit there may be a dead motor or two under a car or in the consist. I operated R62a 1675 out of Parkchester and the consist was rocking going south. Sometime going north I noticed it operating a little slower at startup. I peer out the window no propulsion fault lights lit anywhere glanced at the ammeter (#2cab operating end on 1675) low amperage sure enough both motors on #2 truck had died somewhere going north. Hit reset with no results. out of the blue both motors kicked back in after the next station stop but they continue to die out after just about every other station stop?????
Yes, we had a peppy R44 on the "A" a couple weeks ago. I like my R44s with dim light (preferably with a few bars out) and replacement plastic light shades over the doors, like #5208-09-07-06 has.
My fond memories of the R44 when new are rooted in 1972, 1973 and 1974 when the 100-259 cars ruled the "F" line and the 260-399 cars were out on the "D" train.
My first ride on them was in 1972 (can't remember the exact date, may have it written down somewhere - it was summertime, maybe August). I JUST MISSED it at 47th-50th Street, changing from the southbound "D" to the Queens-bound "F". It was heading for Coney Island so I decided to chase it. I got off at Avenue "X" to catch it coming northbound and was successful. The first R44 car I ever rode in was #140.
Unfortunately, he is no longer with us. He became #5282 in the GOH, and died an awful death on July 3, 1997.
wayne
Ah, yes, that terrible accident on the A. That was the last car of the train which split that switch, wasn't it?
I think I finally figured out why the R-44s seem to have gained speed the way several Subtalkers have claimed: they've been possessed by the sprit of the R-10s. After all, they run on the very same line.
R44's were always fast, at least as long as I've ridden them (15 years).
Yep, they ARE - it's just how fast they're being driven. Last good R44 run I had was out to the Fulton Express; I got 47 out of it from Hoyt to Nostrand, #5408 lead motor. They seem to be driven rather conservatively in the CPW express stretch. I'm finding that this disturbing trend is spreading to the R38s as well.
In their younger days, R44s would tear up the quarter mile beneath Queens Boulevard, probably reaching 50MPH. They were very quiet, even when moving at top speed. They clatter now, not sure just why. They still provide a thrill when in flight.
Wayne
No, not always. When new, you always new when one would be the next train to arrive, well before it ever did. The huge service delays were unbearable. Even the R-1-9's that were showing severe signs of
aging then still had more pep. The main problem with the "new" R44 was that the acceleration would start out fine but then would just conk out at a certain speed, oftentimes while the train was still leaving the station. Additionally, the crowds were much heavier then. A large car with only 4 sets of doors was not all that practical.
Of course we all know the situation with the swapping of trucks with the R46's, the many rebuilds, until the R44 FINALLY came out right.
Like I said earlier, I welcome a ride on them; wish they were on the D. They are, to this day, smoother and quieter than the other cars. The R46, while always faster, never had that riding quality of the 44.
Joe C.
Yep, the rear truck split the switch in Homeball Alley and went sideways into the curtain wall, tearing #5282 in half like a piece of bread. There's still a chunk of the curtain wall missing! His partner #5283 (ex #129) was dragged off the rails and her underskirts caught fire from the sparks. The other two cars are orphaned.
wayne
I like the feel of the R38 when they get it wound up like that. You tend to not feel the speed as much in the 75-foot cars even though they are capable of it. In an R38 you are bouncing around, you really feel it; I had one go 53mph (#4008) in Cranberry Tube recently.
What a rush!
wayne
You think Cranberry is hot! I have one tube better, the 59th Street Tubes for the Broadway Lines! Here is my recent Logs of speed occurances in this tube:
R40 Astoria Bound N - 54 MPH
R46 71st Bound R - 57 MPH (THE BEST ONE!)
R32 71st Bound R - 53 MPH
R32 Asotria Bound N - 54 MPH
R40 Coney Island Bound N - 52 MPH
R68 Astoria Bound N - 56 MPH
You want Speed? The tubes are the best spots!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I still rate the CPW express dash and the Howard Beach-Broad Channel runs on the good old R-10s as the best places for speed rushes. And lest we forget the southbound express run from 59th St. to 42nd St. I often wondered how the R-10s ever managed to stop without overshooting the station, as fast as they were going.
True, with me being 20 years old, I can barley remember riding the R-10s (I do, but vagly). Even though theses cars are not in service, but I rode in the cab of the R110A from 96th Street to Chambers, and for new kids on the block these bad boys did a great deal of speed along the Bway-7th Avenue Line. Between 34th and 14th & 14th and Chambers, we clocked this baby in at max 59 MPH! WHOA What a rush! The stations were blurs!
As for the R110B, she does local work and barely has time to show off! So for now I think the R46s are our best bet for a good rush, the R44s maybe catching up, but I still hate them!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Odd that the 75' cars are consistantly faster than the 60' cars, even under the uncontrolled conditions. It would be interresting to get another 20 runs or more tallied and then graph the results. It'll prove that the 75' cars, especially the R-68s and not slower.
Steve, I'd be pleased to work with you on a controlled, scientific experiment.
For example, two different types can NOT be compared by "side-by-side" running.
It has to be sequential tests, on the same track, using one motorman. A number of trainsets should be used over many runs, with average speeds calculated over the multiple runs and trainsets.
Of course, environmental conditions should be the same, such as rail moisture condition, wind, and temperature (you knew I had to get a weather link in here...).
(This is all well and good, but I can't imagine why the NYCTA would be interested, even though we railfans are!)
Try the Peublo testing tracks; they aren't too busy right now.
Joe C
Todd, I would find it hard to find enough money in my budget to 'hire' another tain operator. (Technically, the cost of the track test operator comes out of the shop budget)This is why I would settle for 20 or 30 runs randomly clocked and then take averages for each car class. I'd expect to find that the averages would vary by 2 MPH or less. If that was actually the result, I'd consider it vindication.
Sounds reasonable, Steve. I'd come down with a stopwatch and clipboard (remember that? ancient version of PC spreadsheet :-) if you set up this test!
Sounds like a plan Todd. Perhps on your next tour of duty at '88'. Maybe we can get Erik or one of the other employees to join us.
Eric and I rebuilt engines for street and racing so if you are looking for one who is quick with the starting tree, you have come to the right place. The problem is there are no two tracks exactly alike. Some local stops on the Brighton Line have third rail gaps leaving stations, therefore giving an express an edge as they would run in parallel longer. Rolling resistance on curves must be factored as an express track curves less than the inside track so straightaways are a must. Try to get the Rockaway flats; no switches, curves, few power substation changeover gaps to worry about, except maybe LILCO's substandard voltage.
The plan is to take 20 or 30 runs from 60th street/Lex through the 60th St tube to a fixed point. We time the runs and log the max speed. After 20 or 30 runs we'll have enough data for each type of car (granted, not under controlled circumstances) that we can get some good averages of speed and put this debate to bed once and for all.
I think thats kind of cheating using a 3% downgrade. Tangent level trackage and a radar gun should suffice. Heck I could get a bicycle to 40 MPH with a grade like that. I did track testing in the Rockaways a year after the Williamsburg Bridge accident using IRT cars. Actually, Eric came up with a design tapped into the speedometer ports and using relays tapped into the 6 wires, making power available for upgrades and using Energy Conservation for all other times where the power is not required. Unfortunately, it seems like there is no need for a suggestion box in the TA.
Not cheating exactly because every train has equal mechanical advantage of gravity on its side. It just seems that if you want to get the greatest diversity of readings, you need to go where the top speeds will be attained. There is one area on the Concourse line between 161 street and 167 street where the curve leaving 161 and the steep grade make it a laboreous run for the best train. I've been over it hundreds of times. A great train = 23 MPH entering 167 St. Average = 22 MPH while a dead motor or 2 will reduce you to 19 - 21 MPH (that's regardless of equipment type). So a similar test there will not give you any kind of meaningful diversity. B-3 track - 34th St. to W4th St. will give you another good shot for speed but you take the N line and R line out of the equation. Since the N runs everything from R-32s to R-68A and the R uses R-46 you would be down to R-68 (D) R-68A (B) & R-40 (Q) on 6th Avenue. This cuts you car-type sample down. Only draw-back with 63rd St is the time it'll take for each run and the return trip.
I get the feeling that our favorite Supt. has had some of his Hippos in training, kind of like a Sumo wrestler on a diet. Stay out of their way they're mean and pumped up :-)
Mr t
What's wrong with LILCO's voltage? Why do you think it is substandard?
LILCO doesn't exist anymore!
It's LIPA now, I know. But why is their voltage less than ConEd's?
I did not notice any difference at all with the trains I took on the Rockaway line as far as performance is.
I'm not familiar with the idiosyncrasies of LIPA or lack thereof.
I remember hearing that the third rail out in the Rockaways fed by the Broad Channel substation puts out less voltage than others. Having operated out there for many years, I have felt loss of power and even could on occasion, hear indifferences in compressor motor speed and other oddities, especially with R44s, in the summer. The R110B died just south of that location during it's initial test period. I guess a Con Ed man who know the area could explain better, it is just my observation.
That's what we like to see a man proud of his work ! Do keep at it as when they're retired maybe Branford will want one, they are SINGLES after all ;-) I can see it now our R-9 & a Hippo linked up and trotting thru the weeds to Short Beach, we'll be keeping that inside door OPEN of course.
Mr t
Recently did 55 on an SIR train from Grasmere to Clifton. Also did 47 over the north channel bridge. R44s are fast, but I still feel the R46s are the fastest (59 in the 59st tunnel!). R32s tie with the 44s (55 in the same tunnel).
How fast does the Amtrak Northeast Direct travel on the NE Corridor?
Standing at Princeton Junction, they don't seem that fast when they past by. On the train, it seems like were flying.
[How fast does the Amtrak Northeast Direct travel on the NE Corridor? ]
Metroliner Service does 125; long distance/E60 trains do 110.
It's realy nice and sweet that the MTA/TA REALY want to build a subway under this street after 50 years of planing/studies and going as far as building a few short segments almost 25 years ago,BUT,WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE THE DIRT START FLYING?
[BUT,WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE THE DIRT START FLYING?]
About the same time we see the pigs start flying.
Not really, I fly from time to time and there's still no Second Avenue Subway.
Yeah, but you do in in an airplane, unless there's something you are not telling us. :)
About the same time they start the South 4th Street Station.
EXACTLY MY POINT! There's been enough talk. lets see the work start, then i'll believe them,but until then..... which brimgs me to another point.WHY wasn't the Archer Ave/South Queens line completed to its planed terminal[SPRINGFIELD BLVD], and why didnt the TA just go on and build the Queens Superexp anyway[NIMBY'S BE DAMNED] ?
[and why didnt the TA just go on and build the Queens Superexp anyway[NIMBY'S BE DAMNED] ? ]
Some posts awhile ago mentioned that TA had no solid plans anyway. I haven't heard there was any NIMBY issue.
Arti
If you're referring to using the Montauk Branch LIRR as I'd have supported there was a NIMBY issue in the late 70's I think. Worried about their kids getting killed. Can't remember any kids getting killed on the Brighton tracks and they're busy enough.
I don't think MTA ever got as far as determining the ROW anyway.
Arti
ok, Ok... I am fustrated, I have tried to figure it out, but I can't...
What the Hell are NIMBY's or what does it stand for?
I know it has something to do with people...
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Not In My Back Yard. Basically, people opposed to a project soley because it will change thier little corner of the earth. Maybe this one should go on the FAQ's page?
Thank you....
The Hell with the NIMBY's...
Frank D
NIMBY's are generally thought of as people who object to something necessary, but generally thought of as bad, very close to them. Ie. a group home for recoving drug addicts on their block.
A better acronym for subway objectors who are against change in general is BANANAs -- Build Absoluting Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone.
I guess you have to be BANANAs to think that subways are in the same class as a druggie half-way house.
Well they tore down the 3rd. Ave. el and the East side now has only one subway line. I'd say it should be done by 1970, tops ...
Shhh, they're studying . . .
Why not pay a private company to build the thing. It would be a lot faster and cheaper. It's been done on the Hudson-Bergen, and don't forget the IRT-BRT dual contracts.
Not to mention that it might actually get done.
The CAPITOL DISTRICT TRANSIT AUTHORTIY has unveiled plans for an new commuter stye rapid transit system for ALBANY, TROY, SARATOGA and surounding cities.Plans are in the works for a demonstrator routing from SARATOGA along I 87[NORTHWAY] to downtown ALBANYs AMTRAK STATION.
I forget where I heard it, but they will be borrowing a trainset (loco and some cars) from Seattle's "Sounder" operation, which already has the cars but won't be starting operations for a few months. The "Sounder" trainset will be used for demonstrational purposes only, then returned west.
Guess they figured the closest stuff probably would crap out during the tests.....LIRR's bilevels and DE30 locos!!
I know the DE30s are crapping out (why couldn't the LIRR go with the off-the-shelf dual mode GE Genesis engine?) but I thought the Kawasaki bilevels were doing fine.
So Albany's transit system is interested in rail service. Some kind of DMU (Flexliner?) service would be best unless Albany traffic is severe.
I know the DE30s are crapping out (why couldn't the LIRR go with the off-the-shelf dual mode GE Genesis engine?) but I thought the Kawasaki bilevels were doing fine.
So Albany's transit system is interested in rail service. Some kind of DMU (Flexliner or Bombardier's Talent?) service would be best unless Albany traffic is severe.
There is no Amtrak station in downtown Albany.
(There is no Amtrak station in downtown Albany).
But there should be. The station that is used is a windswept platform across the river in Rensellear. The orignial station has been abandoned for who knows how long. Are the tracks across the river and into the station still usable?
I believe that the old Albany train station has been renovatd into State offices. As a matter of fact, I think it is the headquarters for the State University of New York (SUNY).
CDTA would like to build a route from Saratoga via I87 to DOWNTOWN Albany. while ther is a station in RENN. The new station would be located off I787 near the I90 interchange
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon, Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez 201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the Powerhouse exhibit.
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon,
Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter
Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez
201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and
Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the
WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for
decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area
dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want
to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we
might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us
now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening
while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the
Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the
Powerhouse exhibit.
Since the new cars seem to be heading over to the east ny yard, why are they only going to be placed on the L and M lines? What of my beloved....oh sorry....what about the J/Z line? the 40/42 cars there are tired and their little feet.....?ok,ok,...got a little carried away].No seriously, there hasn't been a new rail car over on the JAMAICA line since 1969/70[r42] WE deserve new rail cars just like the L[UH]and M [BARF] !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Was that a bit over the top? I can never tell anymore!
you can have your new cars..
bring the redbirds back to the 1/9!!
The Redbirds are going to the torch - maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. The Redbird fleet is over 30 years old on average, and that's 30 years of hard service. NYCT is not in the business of making railfans happy - they are in the business of public transit.
Train Dude will tell you, try getting parts for 35 year old cars - it isn't easy - many things that were common in 1964 are not common now.
So, for all the Redbird fans: Ride 'em, photograph 'em, record 'em NOW, for one day they will be a memory, just like the cars they replaced.
Either they get scrapped or we can watch them fall apart. Unfortunately they aren't going to be around forever. What goes around comes around. The Lo-Vs and Hi-Vs were replaced by the Subway Cars we see now, and now it's time for the Redbirds to be replaced by the R-142s. You can't turn back time. I for one will surely miss them, since I grew up with them. Perhaps that would explain why I'm so intent on preserving the R-17. I want to preserve the past in the best way that I can, so it is not lost to future generations. I could say to my Grand Kids, "I rode this car many years ago." And that was the truth. I did ride the 17s in service on the shuttle until they were retired. But that's that. What more can you do than to relish the memory of what was once so great?
-Stef
I'm with Stef on that one.
They could make an effort to please us. I hate the employees who get on my case for staying in the station after a train just left or taking pictures. Considering the fact we pay to ride even though we don't go anywhere, we do deserve some more respect from them. Yesterday at Bethesda, I took a flash picture of a STOPPED J8 bus to Lakeforest while the driver was changing the sign and he got all mad at me. I don't flash it in the driver's faces or while they are driving. If only they knew that our $1.10 or $1.50 went to their salaries and we don't even go anywhere on the system, maybe they would try to please us.
The R143 are being designed and built specifically to work with a new signal system that is being installed on a prototype basis on the L only. Any cars left after the L is completely re-fit with the new cars will go to the M, so that the Metropolitan Ave shuttle can be run as an OPTO service. I'm sure that some cars will make their way to the J/Z on extra trips and the like. But I fully expect to see the new cars running on the A line before I see them anywhere else.
-Hank
Where are the fastest stretches on the LIRR? Last time I was running express on the main line between Mineola and Jamaica the train seems slower. Is the Babylon express ( the train that runs express stopping only at Freeport to Babylon) fairly fast, or is the whole LIRR slowing down?
According to the thread "Well slow me down" on lirrcommuters.org, LIRR is installing speed restrictions in spots because the new DD trains going fast are wearing the tracks down, so for "safety's sake" trains are not permitted to go over 60mph.
Lately I've been getting more speed "kicks" on the subway than LIRR.
[Is the Babylon express ( the train that runs express stopping only at Freeport to Babylon) fairly fast]
I don't know about the whole line, but the piece between Rosedale and Lynbrook is typically a fast run.
Mr t__:^)
I agree, but if you look at the train from Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream the Babylon trains run a step slower than say 10 years ago. And forget about the Far Rockaway/Long Beach Branches. I think they put up a approach signal before a train enters Valley Stream, which backs the whole damn line up.
I believe as a whole the LIRR has drop its speed by at leat 20 miles per hour.
Another fast stretch is from Jamaica to Locust Manor. Well it use to be at leats.
Frank D -Queens Blvd Exp.
Today I got a good "speed rush" on the LIRR. I was catching the 1:57pm train from Mineola to Jamaica, then changed to a Babylon train for Bellmore.
An OB train that was late pulled in right before and dumped it's passengers, then went OOS to Jamaica.
Then my train came. It was going pretty fast all the way to Jamaica, stations were a blur and power poles flew by us.
Then I changed to the Babylon train. Once we got toward the Montauk viaduct the train flew, power poles were flying by us and we were pretty fast past Valley Stream. It was pretty fast even with making all stops after Rockville Centre. The Babylon train did give a rough ride, but for me that added to the sensation of speed.
We must've been doing 70-80mph on both the main line stretch and the Babylon stretch in SE Queens and Valley stream.
I think it partially does depend on the engineer. If you get one that cares about being ontime and not fooling around, you'll have a nice ride. But if you get one of those yahoos, like when I was on the Babylon train the time before today, you'll be late and have a "silver snail".
I should have reported that guy, he was fooling around at Jamaica and chatting with his friends. He was talking to his friends on the train even while it was moving, which is a violation I believe.
In general I find that the quiet type engineers (ones who keep their door closed) generally operate the train faster than those who don't.
Another thing in general I find with subway T/O's, bus drivers, and even some LIRR engineers is that guys that are on the short side go fast. Who knows? Perhaps because women tend to not date shorter guys they get less lovin' and thus go faster because they may be angry about it. At 5'3 myself I can understand. This a whole another issue, though. I do remember once being on an Queens-bound F train (first car, R46 of course) on the Queens Blvd express, and the T/O (about 5'4) came out of his cab at Queens Plaza to check something and saw a woman with a really tall guy making out on the train. After seeing that, he sped all the way from QP to Roosevelt and then 71/Continental, where I got off.
That was my fastest ride on the Queens Blvd IND, it felt like we were doing over 50, all the stations were a blur. Perhaps his anger could've been strong enough to really get a Hippo moving! :-0
Sounds like you have some real size issues. I don't agree with any of your observations related to speed - size or dating.
Threads in other bbs indicate that the reason for recent slowdowns in diesel service on the LIRR are due to frame weakness on the new D series locomotives. It seems that the management decided that slowing down the trains will ease up the stress on the frames.
I doubt they're right as the LIRR frequently bandaids situations with slowing things down - usually with no improvement.
As for speeds on the LIRR - I was told a year ago - the following:
MAS between Harold and just prior to Jamaica for M1-M3: 80MPH
MAS for Portions of the Babylon branch between vicinity of St. Albans & just West of Babylon: 80 MPH
NOTE: GP38-2s and MP15s in the same area as above were limited to 65MPH due to slower braking.
Most other lines on the LIRR limit M1-M3 trains to 60-65MPH.
Most other diesel lines on the LIRR are limited to between 45 and 65MPH.
NOTE: I believe the Main Line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport is limited to 45MPH.
Hope this helps.
We weren't doing 80mph last time I was on the Jamaica-Harold stretch. My train was express, and it looked like were only doing about 50-55mph the whole time, with slowdowns around Woodside.
Also was slow on the Babylon branch between St.Albans and Lynbrook, last time I was on it appeared we were only doing about 40-45mph, the cars on Sunrise Hwy were beating us.
Out the front window I saw no trains ahead of us, I assume it's either a new speed restriction, OR, the engineer could care less about being ontime.
The result is were 10 minutes late. The proof that there are slowdowns is that often my train will arrive at the station under 5 minutes late, but I get to my destination over 10 minutes late.
I'll probably be taking the LIRR tomorrow, hopefully it'll be more fun than the last few times I rode.
With the LIRR, if you can see the train ahead of you you are too close. Watching the signal at Forest Hills, it doesn't change from - to / until the train is out of sight. BTW. Fastest run I've see is once from JAM to Mineola, in that direction, on a holiday special in 1997. It took from 3-5 seconds to completely pass New Hyde Park station. Fastest stretch on the D?30ACs is from Hicksville to JAM, sometimes Oyster Bay trains from Mineola to Jam.
Also my "silver snail" trips have been on M-1 and M-3 electrics. I was on the OB branch not too long ago and the diesel went alot