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What is history of line from north end of V. to south Yonkers?
Did it ever connect with IRT at 242 St? Or go bankrupt earlier?
Did it compete for commuters with Putnam line (also in park) or Hudson line?
It makes a nice hike and only 2 apartment complexes sprout atop route.
I think what you see is the abandoned Getty Square branch of the Putnam division.
I'm not sure where it broke away from the Putnam, but I do know it ran through Van Cortlandt Park and terminated at Getty Square.
As for history - I believe this part of the line had thrid rail and was abandoned some time shortly before or after World War II.
Yonkers branch service ended on June 30, 1943.
Yonkers -- my hometown!
Losing this line was a big mistake for Yonkers. For a few million, the IRT could have been extended to Getty Square. The Getty Square branch was down the cliff from the fashionable Park Hill neighborhood, an orignial garden suburb built on the bluffs in the 1880s and 1890s. It provided access to the city for that neighborhood, which now has cheap mainsions, some abandoned. One huge house, the overcliff house, had an elevator down the cliff to Broadway, other folks took the city stairs.
The Yonkers branch ran behind the stores on Broadway. The usual idiocy -- parts of the ROW have been sold off limiting its usefulness forever. But people expected to use cars then. My grandfather drove to the area around 242nd St, parked, and rode the IRT to work.
While outside NYC, perhaps this part of Yonkers (and this line) could be part of the forgotten board, or the subject of subtalk walk.
You may recall, I favor using the Putnam mail line as a MetroNorth spur as far as Tuckahoe Road, with large park'n-ride lots/garages for traffic off the Thruway, Sprain, Saw Mill and Cross County, all of which are right next to the line. You could drive, park, and shoot down to GCT in 15-20 mintues.
There are still a few remnants of the Yonkers branch in Van Courtlandt Park just east of the Parade Grounds. At one point the stone abutments still exist for a bridge over a ravine. There is also an intact bridge over the Henry Hudson Parkway that is now used for a foot path. The branch left the main line north of the Van Courtandt station.
I'm surprised that the Putnam line has never been considered for a passenger revival. The line was never controlled by the MTA; it passed from the Penn Central to Conrail, which abandoned the last freight service. There has been at least one encroachment on the line, by a motel in Yonkers that covers part of the right-of-way. I'm not sure if other parts of the route have been sold off.
Paul DiMaria:
It appears that the old Purnam line right of way is mostly intact. In fact Westchester County has made it into a paved trailway for bicycle riding and walking.
BMTJeff
The Put was never electrified. It was steam then diesal, people changed at either University Hts, to catch a train to GCT or I forgot the name a mile lower to catch the old 9th Ave Shuttle to the IRT
Sedgwick Avenue, which is the divider between two bronx grids. The Riverdale/Kingsbridge numbering continues where Manhattan leaves off at the northern end. The main system to the east starts at 132, which is at Oak Point and is aligned with 132nd in Manhattan, but then the system, due to Bronx terrain loses 20 blocks. The highest west side street is 263, on the east side it's 243 (the part of the west side between Sedgwick and Jerome, which is aligned with the east side, disappears under Van Cortlandt Park).
Hey Bob - beg to differ but according to Kevin Walsh's page linked to below from within Anon E Mouse's reply -
"The Putnam Branch itself was never
electrified (hence the absence of remains of a third rail). There was, however, an electrified branch that diverged from the
line just north of the Van Cortlandt Park Station and ran to Getty Square in Yonkers. Passenger service ended on the line
in 1958, and the last fright train rumbled on the now-missing tracks in 1980."
It's funny - my memory doesn't seem worth much anymore - yet trivia like the electrified branch to Getty Square is far easier for me to remember than the answer to the last question my boss asked:-)
From reading the posts it seems that the Yonkers service was electrified only on the part where it diverged from the old Putnam line. Was this a shuttle line between the Putnam and Yonkers with passengers switching between trains at the junction? Or did the equipment run on diesel (or coal?) on the Putnam portion, and then use the third rail on the Yonkers line? Somehow I doubt the latter, the cost of such dual purpose equipment would not be justified for such a limited service as the Yonkers branch line.
[From reading the posts it seems that the Yonkers service was electrified only on the part where it diverged from the old Putnam
line. Was this a shuttle line between the Putnam and Yonkers with passengers switching between trains at the junction? Or did the equipment run on diesel (or coal?) on the Putnam portion, and then use the third rail on the Yonkers line? Somehow I doubt the latter, the cost of such dual purpose equipment would not be justified for such a limited service as the Yonkers branch line.]
It was a shuttle line. Yonkers riders had to change trains at the junction with the mainline Put in Van Cortlandt Park - and then change once more for the el if they were heading to Manhattan.
While we are on the subject of the Getty Square branch and the abandonment in 1943, Peter's post expained it partially - as a shuttle, the cars were needed on the NYC's main line in 1943 more that just an isolated shuttle. The ODT would permit such abandonedments if the equipment was needed urgently elswhere. In Baltimore, the ODT allowed the conversion of the 23 car to bus. The 23 originally went to Essex (but not near the Glen L. Martin aircraft plant) and a bus shuttle from the car line to there was established in 1937. In 1938 the bridge over Middle River was damaged and the car line was shortened to the east side of the bridge. Buses took over from there. The ODT allowed the line's full coversion in 1942. The 23 was converted to bus and combined with the shuttles. The 20 car was extended from Highlandtown to City Hall to take that part of the 23's rail. The only rail that was actually abandoned was the 1.3 miles from Eastern Avenue and Dundalk Avenue (junction with the 26 line) to Middle River. The 9 semi-convertibles released from the 23 were put on other lines.
The old Putnam ROW has had its rails completely torn up from where the Hudson line peels off north of University Heights station all through Van Cortlandt Park. (See Kevin Walsh's site for details and pics.) Several bridges over the lake are still in place, with the trackways and ballast for ties still visible.
The cost of reviving this ROW for passenger service would be prohibitive. There would also be enormous community resistance to replacing what has become a nature/jogging trail with an active rail line. If service were to be restored, extensive fencing would be required all through the park.
Remember in 1991 when the West Side line running north from Penn Station through Hell's Kitchen and Riverside Park was revived for Amtrak service? It took a lot of time for people to get used to (at the cost of at least one life) high-speed trains running on what had been abandoned trackage for many years.
For more on The Old Put, follow the highlighted link to Kevin Walsh's page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In its earliest days, the New York & Northern (the Yonkers Branch & Putnam Div) was the original rail/elevated link into NYC.
It was envisioned at the time as being linked with the 9th Ave El.
However, RR technology was producing much heavier locos and cars that could be supported by the then lightly constructed elevated structure. Earlier plans called for a stone arch structure, which even in those days was cost prohibitive.
Up until WWII, you could change trains (from the El to the NY&N) at 155th St and take the NY&N to points north and Yonkers.
The Yonkers branch was the last of the NYC electrification projects and the first to be abandoned and de-electrified.
Jan 6, 1918
The Sedgewick Ave station of the 9th Ave El opened.
The New York and Northern Railroad had terminated their operations over their bridge to 155th St station of the El.
The bridge, last of the steam powered swing type Harlem River drawbridges, was leased for 999 years to the IRT who instituted shuttle service on a single track until March 1st, when both tracks were placed in use.
[The Yonkers branch was the last of the NYC electrification projects and the first to be abandoned and de-electrified.]
What I don't understand is why the Yonkers (Getty Square) branch was abandoned in 1943. It's not the abandonment _per se_, instead it's the year. World War II was in progress in 1943, with the economy on a war footing and transit ridership near its all-time high. In addition, diesel fuel for buses presumably was scarce on account of military needs. Why not keep the branch running for the duration of the war?
There are all kinds of horror stories of Surburban, Trolley & Interurban lines that quit during this time, and the stories of the efforts to restart them or keep them going range from coast to coast.
Just like the NYC El cars and NYB&W equipment that wound up on the west coast for shipyard runs when the need overshadowed public opinion as to what was needed and what wasn't.
Peter...What were the ridership stats for the years prior to 1943 on the line? I do understand what you're saying, though. There were several trolley lines in Brooklyn that were abandoned during the war(3rd Ave, Erie Basin, to name a few) and why?
Carl M.
[Peter...What were the ridership stats for the years prior to 1943 on the line? I do understand what you're saying, though. There were several trolley lines in Brooklyn that were abandoned during the war(3rd Ave, Erie Basin, to name a few) and why?]
I've never seen any numbers on Getty Square ridership, but I would imagine that it was low given the double transfer and the reasonable proximity of the much faster New York Central Hudson line to the Yonkers terminal.
As far as wartime line abandonments are concerned, Dan Lawrence's recent post sums it up pretty well - rolling stock (probably scarce given the war effort) had to be redeployed to busier lines.
Here we go again!!! In another one of my so called apartment window adventures (as of 2:15AM), a pair of SBK locmotives appeares with an IRT R-14, heading southbound. Can I safely assume that R-142s, 6316-6320 have arrived from the factory? Can anyone confirm this?
Darn it! If a car delivery did take place, and I'm sure it did, I found the most inopportune time to be out of my house, and not at my front window....
More apartment window adventures (Adventures of a Railfan) to come.
-Stef
Might be no biggie.. I saw
"a pair of locomotives with an
IRT r14 car" leaving Van Cortlandt
yesterday morning.. and parked in the
layup track at 215st..
Yeah, but seeing a pair of SBK locos makes you scratch your head....
-Stef
Damn! You really need a webcam in your apartment.
You're absolutely right, my friend.....
-Stef
Hmmm....That means I really need an el outside of my window...
-Hank :)
Stef,
Do you suppose that it is time to invest in one of those security cameras (the type that takes one picture every few seconds), and aim it out your front window at the el? That way you would not have to stay at your window all of the time.
Yeah, I should old friend. Then it would be possible for all of you to share my railfan adventures! Someone from the Trolley Museum suggested aiming a camera on myself and titling my flick "Life With Stef", very much like the Truman Show with Jim Carrey. I guarantee I will do no such thing:)
-Stef
Stef you and SubBus (aka 3TM) should contact each other via e-mail and coordinate R-142 sightings. He was on the Canarsie Tour, if you recall.
SubBus lives near the Bay Ridge LIRR in East New York (the entranceway to the system) and you're up by the IRT yards -- the final delivery point.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not up at the yard, but on the side of the el, and can see the cars heading to their destination.
-Stef
Yes, as mentioned in my earlier post. I did see aset of R142 on the freight tracks near the New Lots (L) station around 7:30pm waiting to make its way onto the IRT via the wye........
I think its time to go to the Linden shops.......
3TM
Greetings,
Just to inform you that a new rolling stock has been added to the program. It's has the IRT stock of R36 in red and white along with some MTA loco's and flat cars. The address is http://kamx-members.xoom.com/ttcsubway/
Paul
Anybody interested in giving a subway tour to someone from the great white north?
Sure, E-mail me!
It's time for one of those postings that will generate hundreds of
threads! Put your most surprising transit moment up, like when you
looked down a platform and you saw something you didn't expect to see.
Mine was returning to Chicago in the early 90's and finding the South
Side "L" and the Dan Ryan line had swapped terminals when the subway
extension was finished. Growing up on the North Side, the Howard Line
trains always went to either Englewood or Jackson Park. It was a shock that they now went to 95th St...
Mine was the first time I saw a Flushing Line train running on the express tracks of the BMT Broadway line at 49 St, headed towards the Coney Island yard at about 11 PM.
I was in Berlin in 1990 riding the S-bahn (on an ERA fan trip). We were passed by a steam locomotive! Nothing in tow, but it was running in reverse. It was on the line between Zoologischer Garten and Friedrichstrasse. By the time I whipped my camera out, it was long gone.
Another intersting sight on this trip was where a trolley line crossed a narrow guage steam line at grade. I have photos of a trolley waiting for the steam train to pass.
On the subway, the good thing is a monotonous reliability. The only surprise is a bad surprise.
One morning in the late 1980s two F trains pulled into 15th-Street Prospect Park from different directions at exactly the same time (the station has a single island platform). Then, poof -- the power went out, the lights went off, and the trains were dead. After 20 minutes, we left and walked up to Grand Army Plaza.
One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge, riding under an open window. At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head as the train pulled away.
While exiting up a stairway at Columbus Circle in the mid-1990s, I came across a homeless person whose shreaded pants left little to the imagination urinating down the stairs. He graciously aimed the stream to the side so I could pass.
While exiting the subway at my home station a couple of years ago, I notices a trail of blood drops running up from the platform. It ran down the sidewalk and over to the bar on the corner, which had been known (for 50 years) as Windsor Terrace's drunk/druggie/loser bar. It has since closed. I never found out what happened.
I guess the one pleasant surprise I can remember was getting on my first air conditioned, newly painted Redbird one morning in Kingsbridge. Not a railfan at the time, I had no idea it was coming, and absolutely loved it.
[One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge, riding under an open window.
At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head as the train pulled away.]
Durn shame no one grabbed his arm and held on tight. There would've been most amusing results at the end of the platform.
[While exiting up a stairway at Columbus Circle in the mid-1990s, I came across a homeless person whose shreaded pants left little to the imagination urinating down the stairs. He graciously aimed the stream to the side so I could pass.]
Who says common courtesy is dead?
>>>>One hot afternoon in the early 1980s, I was riding a pre-air conditioning #1 train up to Kingsbridge,
riding under an open window. At Dykman, some teen reached in and smacked me hard upside the head
as the train pulled away.<<<
This is a common tactic for some of our stellar youth, who want to release frustration or prove their macho-ness, which they define as attacking someone who cannot attack back. I was on a GG back in 1973 and one of group of guys getting off the train smacked me in the head as they were getting off the train. Before I knew what hit me, the doors were closing and they were off, laughing at the putz who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway, what could we do? There were 4 of us and a dozen of them.
Rule, then as now: when a group of kids gets on your subway car, be alert, and don't sit next to the door. There very likely is a dude in theat crowd who wants to prove himself.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I also saw a real oddity in East Berlin in 1962. A tractor trolly with an overhead wire pulling a large trailer passenger car. I saw several other old and odd rolling stock on both the S-Bahn and the trolley lines. This was because at the end of WW II all of the trolley rolling stock, buses and S-Bahn rolling stock were in East Berlin. West Berlin bought all new modern equipment, but in the east, they were still using much equipment from the 20's or earlier. By my next trip to East Berlin in 1978, all the old stuff was gone; replaced by modern trams.
Mine had to be driving through Hamburg PA and and as I passed over the bridge over the reading, Blue Mt. and Northern tracks I spotted reading T-1 class 4-8-4 #2102 sitting in the yard. My dad made a U-turn across the median strip and we went down to see it. got a couple pounds of coal out of the tender.
The time on an IRT train Manhattan bound from Flatbush when the doors opened briefly on the wrong side at a wall station.
AFTER LIVING IN NYC FOR OVER 30 YEARS NOTHING SURPRISES ME ANY MORE...
Gee, I thought that only happened with R-44s.:-)
I can think of a couple. Seeing a 1 train pull into 14th St. on the express track and a 3 train pull in on the local track at about the same time, for starters.
The B train which pulled into 14th St. on the EIGHTH Ave. line. A passenger saw my bewildered expression and explained that a building had collapsed along 6th Ave. and that all 6th Ave. trains were running along 8th Ave.
Then there was the first time I actually noticed our express train was skipping a local station. Don't remember the exact train or station (if I had to guess, it was an A at either 23rd or Spring Sts.), but the date was July 20, 1967.
Seeing the BMT standards for the first time. UGH!!
Standing at the southern end of the southbound platform at 42nd St. and wondering where all those northbound trains were stopping. Wondering about the same thing while on a northbound A train later that day. It all fell into place about a month later.
Overhearing some guy hollering to his friend while looking through the railfan window: "Hey, Ron, next stop, Havana!"
I have to disagree about those BMT standards. Sure the look old-fashioned compared to fluorescent lit air-conditioned trains. But they were built in the 1920s. They were so roomy (thin walls, I guess), 67' long, with that dark pink floor and green walls, and the first train type with two doors per opening area, and the vertical pole between the two doors in the pair, and the conductor's area right in the car, and 3-person, 2-person and 1-person seats, and overhead big fans... You felt (sorta) like you were in someone's parlor, not on a train. Especially when my mother with complete NYC sarcasm would say, as I rested my arm on the window sill coming back from someplace fancy: "Good, clean the train with your new coat..."
BMT standards were pretty innovative in their day. But why aren't they running anymore?
Read his message again, specifically the part about when they were built.
I know that, i was trying to prove a point
06/03/2000
Maybe politics plays a part in this. Straphangers want new shiny subway cars. Anything old is strickly for the buffs. When the D-types were scrapped in '65, they were in the best condition in the life. They could have ran for a few more years.
Bill "Newkirk"
The term straphanger will soon thankfully be obsolete.
06/03/2000
[The term straphanger will soon thankfully be obsolete.]
Sounds like the time is ripe for a new term to be invented.
Bill "Newkirk"
I actually like obsolete terms, it makes you think about the origin.
Actually the word straphanger became obsolete in 1969 when the "Q" cars of the Myrtle Av El was discontinued. They were the last cars to have real straps.
Those metal loops are still shaped the same as those straps.
Now the way the bars curl from the walls (or from the floor on the R-142), that might be considered one big giant immovable strap and the term doesn't have to be obsolete!
I personally have always preferred those metal "straps" to the long horizontal poles. With the straps, each person gets one and they are easier for shorter people (like me) to reach. When you grab one you have your place to hold on and not accidentally get someone else's hand.
That's why they suck. There is less hand space for all. On a bar, people can slide their hands to let someone put their hand on, on a strap you have to orchestrate a whole movement of people going on to the next strap so there will be room. Or share a strap, which is annoying.
The worst part of all however is that they swing, which makes them useless when the train rocks as it moves at high speeds. It made sense when they were soft, and couldn't be made rigid, but when they were made into metal, adding that hinge was a completely lamebrained idea.
If you're going to tell me that they can swing over above the seats, in their pulled out position, they obstruct nothing.
I agree with your criticism of the firm individual hand holds. They give good longitudinal support for sudden starts or stops, but poor lateral support so you could find yourself in someone's lap when the car swayed from sid to side. With the old leather strap you could loop it around your wrist so that even if the subway luched so much that you lost your footing (and the trains with the leather straps did lurch that much)you were literaly hanging from the stap and could regain your footing.
I think the push for fleet standardization had a lot to do with the retirement of the old BMT equipment. Obsolescence also played a role. If you can't get parts for equipment anymore, you've got a problem. It's hard to say how many years the BMT standards had left in them; however, it has been said they were still in better shape than the R-1/9s.
I absolutely, positively agree the Triplexes had plenty left in them when they were retired. They were virtually maintenance-free. It would have been one thing had they been failing left and right and just barely limping along. Retiring them so soon when they were still running great had to one of the biggest blunders of all time.
IIRC, many Brooklynites hated to see both those car classes go.
I was all of 10 1/2 and narrow-minded when I saw the BMT standards for the first time on July 20, 1967. To me, they just looked ugly. The biggest turnoff was the lack of bulkhead signs. Just when I had gotten used to looking above the storm door for train markings, I had to deal with this. I've come to appreciate them now for what they were: solid, durable, and indestructible.
Most surprising moment?
Well, i'd have to say that discovering express tracks and layups actually existed under local stations. That and peak direction expresses.
Now that you mention it, I saw that once happen on the Brighton line 35 years ago southbound at Prospect Park. Could you imagine if you were leaning against it and fell onto the other direction track below? Since it wasn't in the newspaper the next day, I guess no one fell out.
Seeing an R40M arriving at Broadway Junction on the "LL" back in 1969 - when all that I'd ever seen there were incandescently-lit cars like the BMT Standards, R-7As and R-9s. This train had its A/C going full tilt and was ICE cold, it was August 4, 1969 and was 96 degrees.
The sight of my first R32s (Cortelyou Rd, Nov.23,1964) and my first Slants (179th Street, August 3, 1968)
The sight of brand new OLD-STYLE Canarsie tile at 8th Avenue, last November 13th (I had suspected something to that effect was up).
There are others, I will have to look them up in my archives
wayne
06/01/2000
[This train had its A/C going full tilt and was ICE cold, it was August 4, 1969 and was 96 degrees.]
That very day, the BMT Standards ran their last run and faded into transit history (sigh). The Nostalgia Special of 1976-1980 doesn't count since this was a special run.
Bill "Newkirk"
So those were R-40Ms on the Canarsie in 1969, eh? I had been under the impression that those were R-42s.
A few more surprises: emerging onto the Manhattan Bridge on that very first subway ride way back in 1965. Even with all the local stations that N train skipped, I don't remember any of that.
Seeing an A train thunder past 81st St. for the first time in May of 1967. I couldn't wait to experience that express run, which I did for the first time on November 24th of that year.
Seeing the R-38s for the very first time on the E. The blue band at the belt rail was the real surprise.
Seeing R-7/9s on the Canarsie for the first time on January 5, 1969. Whoa!! Of course, that particular train was headed in the opposite direction...
Transferring from the Canarsie to the Broadway line at Union Square and seeing EE trains being stored on the express tracks. I almost had a stroke.
Seeing mixed consists of R-32s and R-42s on the D. AARRRRGHHHH!!!
Yep, they were R40Ms. The cars were [original numbers]:
4300-4301 (4500-01), 4292-4293 (4492-3), 4304-4305 (4504-5), 4297-4296 (4497-6). We rode #4300 down to E 105th, waited there (on its quaint, rickety wooden platform, complete with lamps with crook arms and metal shades with baskets), waited for the R40M to come back and got on again, this time aboard #4296.
wayne
Lets see...
1. Seeing the C-1 bilevels speed by Woodside back in '97.
2. Seeing the R-110B at 34st Penn express track from the uptown local track, and watched torturedly as it left. Never saw it in service again, and, not knowing there was only one, didn't bother looking for it until Fall '99.
3. Riding the NJT Comet IV for the first time in '97.
4. Riding Green Bus Lines 5501 talking bus in '96, and Orion CNG talking LI bus in '97.
5. Finding out there was a SEPTA strike when I went to visit back in '98. I looked like a dumbass buying tokens 4 weeks into the strike. Had to railfan on PATCO.
6. Riding the Market Frankford line M-4 for the first time later in '98.
And a finding out a few facts I never knew:
SIR has subway cars and is mostly free.
There is no free crossover at 72nd / B'way.
There are grade crossings in Queens.
A 5 minute ride on the LIRR from Forest Hills to Jamaica costs $5.50.
I was on a D train one morning in the 80s. I found myself on the J/M tracks until the train got past Essex Street and almost on the Williamsburgh. I thought the train was trainjacked or something. Then he reversed engines and used the connection back to Broadway/Lafayette.
www.forgotten-ny.com
06/01/2000
I've posted this a couple of times here but since it's requested.......When I was 13 years old and railfanning the Sea Beach line one day, I saw at the Fort Hamilton Parkway station the most out rageous looking subway car. It was shiny (stainless steel) with blue doors. I never seen a stainless steel subway car before and that includes the R-11. I got out and watched the express track testing of the now famous R-32's all day. There were no D-types on the Sea Beach that day, only BMT Standards. Are you reading this Sea Beach Fred??
Bill "Newkirk"
Your mention of the R-11s reminds me of another surprising moment. It didn't involve the R-11s, but it did have to do with the same double circular windows on each door leaf. I saw some R-10s with those same door windows; once on an entire A train at 14th St., and on occasion a single car in a train. This was one instance where I wish I had noted the car numbers, because no one can back me up on this. Hey, I've had some weird subway dreams, including one last night in which a train of R-32s kept right on going and just missed clipping a work train, but this was for real.
BTW, did you find yourself wishing you could ride those R-32s right then and there?
06/03/2000
Steve B-8 AVEXP,
Oh yes I wish I could have rode those new R-32's, but I did eventually ride them when they debuted on the original (Q) BROADWAY-Brighton Express.
That vision of a consist of R-10's with porthole windows doesn't ring a bell with me. If there was such a consist even as an experiment, it would have been documented and photographed by buffs. That kind of thing doesn't get buried and forgotten.
Bill "Newkirk"
In the pictures in the R-10 section on ths site there is an interior picture captioned as a proto-type that has the circular window in the end door. Could these be the one with the port holes on the doors?
I'm the one who posted that pic, of R7 #1575, which was rebuilt as the R10 prototype. It was brought to my attention (and proved beyond doubt) that the R7 had the traditional R1-9 square storm door and that the circular window I saw was actually that of the R11 coupled to it.
ummmm.....you didn't happen to look at the May picture on your own calender did you? Or was I halluncinating all month? [fill in your own answer there!]
06/04/2000
[ummmm.....you didn't happen to look at the May picture on your own calender did you? Or was I halluncinating all month? [fill in your own answer there!]
I believe STEVE B was talking about an entire consist of R-10's with their SIDE door panels with porthole windows. I don't believe such a consist existed, we'd all know about it by now. Only 2 R-10's had the ex R-16 porthole windowed storm door.
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't know about the R-10's but I remember when I commuted on the # 2 IRT they had a set of cars with porthole windows. When the rectangular side windows opened they slid down on the outside of the car. The storm door and side doors had porthole windows. I think the ones in the storm door even opened. They had a modified clerestory roof with transverse vents jutting out. Inside they had small exposed fans. In the 70's they were put in trains mixed in with later model IRT cars.
Those were two different types of cars. The R-12 and R-14 classes (essentially one class, with some differences) had the small fans and the "modified clerestory" roofs, while the R-15 class had the porthole windows on the storm and side doors.
David
And taking it a step further, the R-12s and R-14s had exterior trigger box door controls while the R-15s had door controls in the cabs - the first cars to have this feature.
You're right - it would have been documented. Even so, I rode on the A regularly for three years on Saturdays, and I know for a fact I saw some R-10s with twin circular windows on each side door leaf.
And for another surprising transit moment, yesterday marked 33 years since I saw an IRT train for the first time. We were on our way to Putnam, CT and were on the Cross Bronx Expressway when I spotted a train of bright red R-29s or R-33s on one of the lines which crosses over the highway. The three sets of doors on each side really got my attention, as I had only seen cars with four sets up until then.
On occasion I see or get to use a trunstyle that says "GO" its always at the same station, so I started to go early and watch this turnstyle. I so happens this guy comes out of the subway up the stairs to the mezzenine out the oneway iron maiden, and goes to the new stainless maiden, swipes his card and leaves the station. It appears to be a random act of kindness. There isn't anyone around, no money changes hands. I guess he is on some kind of crusade. Is this legal or what?
avid
I do that all the time. I don't care if it's legal or not.
Straight off the MTA's website:
Restriction: Unlimited Ride MetroCards may not be transferred to another person until the completion of the trip for which entry was obtained. The acceptance or solicitation of compensation for use of an Unlimited Ride MetroCard by other than authorized agents of MTA New York City Transit is prohibited.
Doesn't expressly state that it's illegal... he neither transferred the Metrocard nor took a trip.... neither did he accept or solicit compensation for the use of it...
The Star-Ledger has an article stating that the Pataki-Whitman feud that has paralyzed the Port Authority is near an end.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/fad42b.html
(The Star-Ledger has an article stating that the Pataki-Whitman feud that has paralyzed the Port Authority is near an end).
Pataki must have agreed to divert NYC subway fares to the PATH to keep the fare low, in exchange for permission to spend NYC aiport profits in upstate New York.
Please forgive the off-topic post, but I know there is much interest in streetsigns here.
Has anyone else noticed the new streetsigns in Manhattan? Sop far, I have seen them only downtown near the World Trade Center.
They are black, with white lettering, in this respect resembling the old Brooklyn street signs. However, these signs have a b&w picture on the far left side, where the Statue of Liberty formerly was. Evidently, each street has its own picture.
For example, the signs on Church St. have a picture of the Twin Towers, and the signs on Broadway show a packed parade route and display the words "Canyon of Heroes".
However, there seems to be a problem with another aspect of these signs. Some (but not all) of these signs display address numbers above the street name. In at least one case, the range shown does not match the actual numbers on the block. For example, on Church St. at Barclay St., the sign on the southwest corner says "74-77" right above "Church St." However, there is only one building on the indicated block -- the Post Office building -- and its address is 90 Church St. I am sure there are a few more such examples.
Is it possible that these new signs are only for the WTC area? Many of these new white-on-black signs replace other non-standard white-on-purple signs. So, this is why I ask if anyone has seen them anywhere else.
I used to like it when each borough had its own color scheme. (Note to Kevin Walsh: there is a set of mint-condition "whiteys" at Jamaica Ave. and 88th St.) On the other hand, I also like the concept of a single, citywide color scheme. However, instead of using green signs, they should have just extended the old white-on-black Brooklyn color scheme to the whole city. When you see these new signs, you realize how sharp-looking a white-on-black sign really is.
Streetsigns in the city ought to have a strict format, with NO exceptions to the one pattern for the whole city (or for each borough). I really don't like the idea of specialty, non-standard signs for some areas of the city. Every single streetsign in the city (or the borough) should be the same type.
And they should get the goofy pictures off of there. No Statue of Liberty, no Twin Towers, no nothing. The streetsigns should be stark and uncluttered.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Lose your voice, Sarge?
They're all over lower Manhattan; they all just appeared over night practically. The pictures are not specific to each street but more like a landmark in the area.
I still think Philly has the nicest street signs.
They have updated a number of signs in the Philly area. The same basic shape sign, with the same White Helvetica on "Interstate Standard" green, but they have added, in cases descriptors below them.
Examples include adding "Avenue of Technology" under the Market St. Signs starting around Drexel, Interstate shields with directional arrows, Second names "35th Street" "Steve Murray Way" and Arterial Markings.
I agree, these are some of the most informative strip signs I have seen. Now, if they would only improve the traffic signal and Cross Walk design...
The Philly signs are sort of an angular version of the old humpbacks. They have the cross street and house numbers, if I recall correctly, and there are four per pole: one on each side for each street. Green and white, like the Feds like it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin:
Thought you might wanna know:
there's still a black-on-white subway sign on the Northbound platform @ 59th St. on the N & R.
Whenever there's long term construction, then they use black-on-white signs. Like Williamsburg bridge or Manny B closings. Whenever they change MAPS, then they change platform signs too.
I believe these street signs are being funded (partially?) by the Downtown Alliance. Up until last week I lived on John Street, and one night a week or two ago coming home late at night from the subway entrance at Fulton/William I noticed workers putting up the new signs on my block. I asked if I could have the old signs they were taking down, they said no, "We have to return them." Then I asked where they were installing them and he looked at a clipboard and said, "south of Fulton, river to river." I also noticed the new sign they were putting up in front of me at the SW corner of William and John Streets had incorrect address numbers (72-80 pointing west of William, but 80 is two buildings to the east of William).
I assume it's not really going to be river to river, since Battery Park City, which isn't part of the Downtown Alliance, doesn't look like it's getting the new signs.
Some/all of the white-on-brown historic district signs were not replaced, and the white-on-green "Louise Nevelson Plaza" signs were not replaced either, although I think "Vietnam Veterans Plaza" and "Peter Minuit Plaza" were, so I don't know why they didn't make new signs for all of them.
Other pictures on the signs I 've seen include ships at the South Street Seaport; one of the Staten Island Ferry boats; the sign on the Fraunces Tavern building; the Statue of Liberty (irony here); and the NY Stock Exchange.
Y'know, the green and whites are only abt 10-15 years old. The blue and white humpbacks lasted over 50 years in some cases. The shelf life, or pole life, of street signs is decreasing rapidly....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I noticed them Tuesday on Broadway, Church and NAssau Streets along Fulton while exiting from work at the WTC. They look kinda nice, with a throwback feel.
Yikes! I missed these, and I was on Greenwich in Tribeca today, pretty close...
Exceptions to the green & white rule...
Blue and white in midtown
Maroon and white in historic districts
Retro humpbacks on Park Ave in the 60s
For a strange mutation of the green on whites, see the extra-large ones on Kings Highway in the East 50s. The DOT guy must have been nearsighted.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think you mean white on green. I have seen them.....
3TM
They are along Water St, where I am currently employed.....
3TM
I was wondering what everyone's prefered method of tyrnstyling was. I prefer the hip method where I give the metal bar a good wack with my hips which then propells it around. Other methods include the gutt, croth, foot and hand. Has anyone determined which is the best?
Rolling hip. If I've taken Viagra I just vault over it.
Beware of Iron maidens and Viagra
avid
I always move the turnstile with my hand.
Don't take Viagra before a subway trip, wait till you reach your destination! :-)
I usually use my hand, for no reason in particular.
Here's another question - what's your favorite model of turnstyle. I used to like the large ones (I think IND) that had a raised box that you put the token into, and when you put the token in, it made a loud noise.
Has anyone ever done any research into the various models of turnstyles through the years or have any pictures? I've often wondered what the different parts of turnstyles are called.
I push with my hand. This comes from experience. When I was a College Aide for NYCT, I helped test the Automatic Fare Collection system. I had an AFC card (it didn't have a name yet) that I would use at the few stations that had swipe readers. At Union Square (my school station, where I boarded to head for the Jay Street building), one of the turnstiles would "beep" but it wouldn't unlock. Oh, the pain, the pain :-)
David
I usually push with the hand, but one of my friends swipes the card, jumps over, then rotates the turnstile arm. Every time, even when its crowded.
I swope with my righte hande and I waive the barre with my lefte.
wayne
Either hip or hand. I never just walk through - my hight is such that if I hit the bar head-on, th eresults can be _very_ uncomfortable;-).
subfan
Since my commute includes both PATCO and the MFL I have been getting much railfan window experiance. From my observations the front seat seems to be the most popular seat on the train. On the MFL after the railfan seat is vacated it will be filled again within 5 seconds. I was wondering about proper railfan window etiquitte. If the person in the RFS gets up, who gets the seat next. It is the person sitting in the #2 railfan seat or the person standing at the railfan storm door. If there is no person standing at the RFSD does a person standing elsewhere in the train get the RFW or should the #2 person move into the #1 seat and the random standee then gets the #2.
If I am standing at the RFSD and the train fills up sould I move aside to give the others in the train a view out the window? If I am sitting in the #1 RFS should I be expected to share the seat with someone else to give them a view or can i put my bag on the other seat. If I am not at the #1 RFS can I expect the person who is sittng there to let me sit with them.
Finally, on PATCO can I stand at the RFSD dspite the fact I may be annoying the driver?
a)Seat #2 gets seat#1
b) Standee has option to continue to stand or lung for seat #2
c) If no standee, floating standee has option to get RFSD or seat #2
d) never yeild RFSD unless you receive the Railfan Secret Signal. (This varies from day to day, Check heypauls Secret signal of the day code book.)
e)Use Secret signal for vacant seat cargo use. (See above)
f) If the seatees do not respond to the Secret signal begin a hacking cough or flatulate with gusto!
a)Seat #2 gets seat#1
b) Standee has option to continue to stand or lung for seat #2
c) If no standee, floating standee has option to get RFSD or seat #2
d) never yeild RFSD unless you receive the Railfan Secret Signal. (This varies from day to day, Check heypauls Secret signal of the day code book.)
e)Use Secret signal for vacant seat cargo use. (See above)
f) If the seatees do not respond to the Secret signal begin a hacking cough or flatulate with gusto!
avid
i have frequently run into non railfans reading a newspaper, while they are standing in front of the meager window of a slant 40 q... i tried all the signals in the book... as well as looking to my mother hoping that she would ask the person to let her 8 year old get to the window... all to no avail... i was particularly enraged yesterday when i noticed the person reading an article on sport utility vehicles... i know it was wrong, but i wished to myself that he buy one and contribute $10,000 - $15,000 to the auto makers' profits...
An SUV for $15,000?
[An SUV for $15,000?]
Maybe a Sportage or a Tracker, and even then it would have to be a really good deal. No, what heypaul meant is that an automaker can earn up to $15,000 profit on the sale of an SUV, which is several times what it would make on the sale of almost any other type of automobile. In other words, the demand for SUVs is so strong that the automakers can engage in good, old fashioned price gouging and charge whatever the market'll bear - which is a lot. And that's not even to mention the dealer's price gouging. That Suburban that you buy for $45,000 actually would be in the low 30's if GM got its "normal" profit margin on the sale. Ah, the joys of the free market ...
This is why my wife and I are considering a minivan rather than an SUV for our next vehicle. You can get terrific deals on minivans, mainly because the people who normally would have considered them are buying SUV's instead.
Interesting. When I bought my Jeep, the salesman claimed the dealership would be making $700.00 profit on it. I took it with a grain of salt, especially when he said, "You're getting one helluva deal."
No kidding, give me, give me, give me, now!!!!
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!!!! At least, that what your handle means. Please change it. We will all sleep easier.
borg and marty are apparently the same person?
What's up with that?
WAZZZZZZZAP DUDES!!!! Not bad, how did you figure that one out. I'm impressed. If you really have to know, I am so addicted to subtalk, that I have my computer at home and at work under an ALIAS.
As for "BORG" well that's another story. We don't have time right now and this is not the "BORG" half hour comedy show anyway. So back to subtalk please .
By the way in the l980's, which police precinct had the highest crime rate and how did that affect ridership on the system?
So? You can use the same name at home and at work.
Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ughliest!
wayne
[Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ugliest!]
Last I heard, dealers were charging $5,000 to $7,000 over MSRP for them.
I was looking at one a couple of weeks ago, thinking that in another year or so I might be interested in one as a supplement to my Windstar - after all, Chrysler has targeted the vehicle for the minivan crowd that doesn't need the minivan any more but still likes the more upright seating position. I ruled it out after realizing that there was no way a scenicked Ntrak module would fit, even with the seats down (the rear opening is too narrow for sideways entry and the seats still come up too high when folded), the driver's seat design is terrible, even with the partial power adjustment, and Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I can't fit in it at the same time - it's so narrow our shoulders were touching. While I was there, though, the salesman was smiling broadly - he had just delivered another fully-loaded one as an even swap for a '99 Escalade with less than 6000 miles.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re price gouging on the PT Cruiser]
[While I was there, though, the salesman was smiling broadly - he had just delivered another fully-loaded one as an even swap for a '99 Escalade with less than 6000 miles.]
I just did a little price checking on Edmund's. MSRP on a PT Cruiser is about $15,500, say maybe $18,000 fully loaded. The trade in value of a 1999 Escalade (the Cadillac version of the Chevy Tahoe), with the low-mileage adjustment, is about $32,000.
Some schmuck just flushed about $14,000 down the toilet so he could be the first schmuck on his block to own a PT Cruiser. Wouldn't it be a laugh if the PT Cruiser got stolen, and the insurance company offered to settle for $18,000?
I'll agree he was a schmuck, but perhaps not QUITE that big of one ... the sticker on the one I was nosing at was over $23K and it wasn't quite fully loaded - the salesman said the one swapped for the Escalade stickered a little bit higher (leather seats and one other option, IIRC).
Of course, anyone who would pay even $23K for one of those fits the definition anyway, so what the heck. I didn't pay that much for my '96 Windstar, and it has every option except leather seats. (MSRP was nearly $30K, but I bought it as a leftover in February '97.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those who would pay THAT for a PT Cruiser? Imbeciles! Chowderheads! Morons!
wayne
Let's see - what else would Moe say? Cricketheads, onionheads, meatheads, birdbrains, lamebrains. etc., etc.:-)
UGLY is correct. Supposedly it was "designed" to reflect the Chrysler Airflow. That was the inspiration for the slope of the dash of the PCC car, and we all know the beauty of the PCC.
I've seen the PT Cruiser, and it does win the Ugly Car Contest. The other contestants are the New Beetle (yecch!) and the new Ford product (forget the name), which resembles a frog that was stepped on. The colors seen are pitrid.
Next to any of them, a C-type is beautiful.
Speaking of "retro-designed" cars, I thought rumors were going around that to spice up their sales, Ford was going to re-introduce limited editions of the 1965 Mustang. And wasn't Chrysler toying with coming out with a similar idea with limited editions of the 1969 Dodge Charger (General Lee)?
Maybe there's nothing to this, but since we were on the subject of cars...
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, if Lionel could reissue all "Big Three" American Flyer passenger sets (Missouri Pacific, Northern Pacific, and Union Pacific) which Gilbert put out, and I have both versions of each, then anything is possible.:-)
>>>Maybe one of those putrid little PT Cruisers! They are the ughliest! <<<
Yeah, aren't they, they look like a volkswagen beetle w/a glandular condition. Cannot understand why they are so popular.
Peace,
ANDEE
All you can really do is hope the newspaper reader is a nice person. Once, I was on an R32 E train and someone was reading the paper while leaning against the storm door and he just moved to the first set of doors on the left side.
All you can really do is hope the newspaper reader is a nice person. Once, I was on an R32 E train and someone was reading the paper while leaning against the storm door and he just moved to the first set of doors on the left side. BTW, what r the secret signals?
a questions was raised about the secret railfan signals...
they are changed every 8 hours to prevent the people with the seed pods from taking over...
the secret signal is usually embedded in avid readers' messages... you have to ignore the first 10 words of the message, then circle every 7th letter henceforth...
for example: this afternoon's secret signal was:
"it looks like rain outside"
that was only good until 6 pm... see avid's post on turnstyle styles for this evening's secret word...
I honestly don't like this. I propose the signal be changed to be having to name the type of subway car you are on and what transfers are available at the next transfer point. For instance, if you were on a southbound 6 at 77th, say to the person this is an R62 train, the next transfers available are to the 4, 5, N, and R at 59th Street.
No, you have to use the old name.
This is an R-62 on the IRT Pelham-Lexington Local to the City Hall Loop, transfer is available at the next stop, 59th Street, to the BMT Astoria-Broadway-Sea Beach, BMT Queens Boulevard-4th Avenue Local, and IRT Dyre-West Farms-Lexington Express and Jerome-Lexington Express.
Nope! I am a modern railfan, I have to be current. Besides, if the person at the window is not a railfan, they aren't going to have a clue as to what the IRT Dyre-West Farms-Lexington Express is.
But that's the whole idea, isn't it? I like the idea of saying "This is a Redbird R-33 7th Ave. White Plains Rd. express", and I still use IND, BMT, and IRT regularly.
When people ask me about my work badge, I invariably get the same reaction when I tell them we make Coriolis mass flowmeters: HUH?!? What's that?
I say dispense with this "secret signal" business.
I'm all in favor of drawing straws or doing a coin flip to decide who gets the rail fan window.
If that doesn't work, just resort to body blows and a good SMACK-DOWN. That should get your point across, Scotty-Too Hotty style!
Doug aka BMTman
they move away when I shoot out the railfan window with my vidieo camera .........!!!!!!!!
Yes, but why not ASK the person if they wouldn't mind you videotaping through the window. I liked your Flushing Line video (#7 Train), but noticed a couple of times that you seemed to just "bum rush" or "Bogart" your way to the railfan window.
A little courtesy can go a long way...
Doug aka BMTman
I said first excuse me then with eye contact a non verbal OK was given to me by the person near the railfan window...
remember I shoot away from people because of how uncomfortable it makes persons feel sime UFO camcorder
recording them on the subway train ... I am not there as a peeping tom on passengers etc.....
The camera didnt show how the persons near the railfan window understood perfectly what i was doing and
had no problem.......well most of the time anyway .........gee I hope my vidieos did not made me look rude & disrespectful ..!! it did not seem that way when I was shooting the vidieos
Oh well i had to quickly ""set up" before the train started moving
many times i tell motormen that i am not shooting them just thru the window... oh well .. its new york city but
every time i bumped into somebody i always say excuse me !!!!!
Most people when they saw my vidieo camera just got out of the way ......I know it might have looked bad..... oh well...
Thank you for your comment on some of my vidieos thank you sir .....!!!!!
......a follow up comment is this ....shooting 12 hours each day 6 days in a row maybe 4 hours sleep at the seton hotel
at 40 th & lexington streets then standing on your feet all day holding on to your tripod for dear life..& CAMCORDER .......
and your legs & feet ache and swell.............I guess I might have lost it remember the vidieo is permanent B.S. is temporary.....
I hope I wasnt rude I dont want to join rudy G .....!!!!!
[for example: this afternoon's secret signal was:
"it looks like rain outside"]
Wasn't that the signal that Ralph was supposed to yell out the window to get Norton to do the sleepwalking act when Ralph got the bad back bowling? Actually it was "It certainly looks like ran tonight!!!"
My favorite secret signal was the signal to the resistance that D-Day was coming in "The Longest Day" :"John has a long mustache"
the sarge knows his honeymooners better than i do... it certainly was: it certainly looks like rain tonight...
You can always do what I saw someone do on the LIRR (inone of their ancient "double-deckers") about 30 years ago.
Commuter in aisle has the NY Times opened fully. Commuter's hat in lower lever seating keeps getting hit by the bottom of the newspaper. The paper reader doesn't even notice he is bouncing his paper off the lower-level commuter's hat.
The lower level commuter took out his cigarette lighter and ignited the bottom of the aisle reader's paper.
You never saw 100 people clear out of a LIRR car so fast.....
FOR SUBTALKERS EYES ONLY...
For those who have misplaced there Secret Signal of the day code book.
Page 1003 Part XXLCD.
Todays signal is " The price of tomatoes is high , compared to rising interest rates, don't you think?"
The counter sign is "You think?"
avid
avid... good going... remember if someone gives the countersign proving he is a subtalker, leave the train immediately before the other person starts foaming... the secret password system is to protect us from fellow subtalkers...
btw... before pigs tries to shoot you down for writing your roman numerals in reverse order, everyone should consult section 8-4F which explains the proper way to code roman numerals...
.........it is simple .....!! when i board a subway with a railfan window .....I just say "excuse me I would like to shoot
thru the window please "" usually no problem at all ........especially when I am using my vidieo camera........
They probably are taking the word "shoot" too literally and thats why they're getting the hell outta your way!!!
Yeah, you gotta watch out for those machine gun camcorders!:-)
...........yea and my machine gun camcorder a genuine sony tr416 shoots with a 7.2v dc power.........
or my old tr 86 shoots with a 6 v dc dower which is just enough to gun down any good redbird !!!!!!!!!!
my new tr416 shoots at an even lower light lux a natural 0.4 light lux minimum BEFORE the ""NIGHTSHOT"
feature !!!! The november 1999 vidieos were shot with my tr86 with a natural 0.6 light lux & she LIT UP THE TUNNELS
so you can see very well especially the A train to far rockways during the underground segments .
This fall ( hopefully october ) with a better natural light lux the lowest made ever 0.4 will make my
"" MACHINE GUN SHOOTER CAMCORDER " with a wide angel camcorder conversion lens 0.42X hard to beat.....
Who knows soon I will become president of the greatest ever ""rail fan window view subway vidieos" ever!!
So ghety out your ballots............my still photography of rail transit systems arent that bad either..!!!!!
thank you for all of your support ( especially to the last two posts & thoise who posted ) thank you .....!!!!!
In as much as we are talking etiquette, the question regarding bothering the train operator if you wish to stand at the storm door could probably be best answered as.....ASK the train operator if he/she doesn't mind you there!
......I just tell them im shooting the train & out of the front window ONLY & not at them .....sometimes they want to be
included in the vidieo however I tell them they could allow me to shoot thier hands on the controls with thier permission ..!!
works for me every time I visit .....!!!!!!..
If you have read my prior postings you know it has been many years since I was in NYC, but I am surprised by your comments about talking with the TO and taping him. I remeber the TO being locked away in his little cab with no way to see or communicate with him from within the train. What has changed?
In pre air conditioned times, the motorman might prop his door open a little to get a flow of air through his open window, giving a glance of his gloved hand on the throttle, but that was rare, and not SOP.
I also remember the motormen dressed in striped overalls and caps wearing leather gloves. Are they now in uniform?
>>>I also remember the motormen dressed in striped overalls and caps wearing leather gloves. Are they now in uniform? <<<
Yes, they got rid of those silly "Casey Jones" outfits some time ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the name of that hinged device that would clip on to the door and door frame, holding the door open those two inches. Those two inches allowed many moments of spying on the Motorman. Some would close the door, while otheres would some times open the door all the way and spoil the railfan window. I remember very early homemade models made of wood. Any one know the name?
avid
well a nice motorman named mr allen onthe redbird # 5 talked me to death last march 2000... the vidieo lasts four hours ....
but you're forgetting the cardnal rules of commuting.
1) Don't talk to anybody.
2) Don't make eye contact.
3) Keep your eyes focused on 1 of 2 places, at your feet or out the window.
4) Don't let on that your might actually like your commute or trains im general.
I never yield the RFW or the RFSD if I am in a Slant R40. If I am travelling with my Sub Talk friends, I always share the RFW/RFSD. I have one friend I travel with often and when we get an R38 I always yield the RFW.
If the RFW or RFSD is occupied and I am alone, I never attempt to gain access to it directly, rather, I will stand back at the first Standee Pole and try to watch it from there. Otherwise I will take it. If I have the RFW or RFSD and a child under 12 comes along I share it. If I have the RFW or RFSD and an older person comes along I yield it if I don't like their looks. If they are non-threatening in their appearance and demeanor I will share it.
wayne
I have noticed that the signaling on PATCO was done in by US&S. All the signals are made by US&S and they are numbered in the US&S style (40L, 40R etc). However unlike the PRR US&S installed electric switches at all the interlockings on the above ground portion. However, today while riding on the old 1936 portion in Camden, I noticed what looked to be an electro-penumatic switch at the interlocking that is just under the Ben franklin Br. on the NJ side. I tried to check the 8th interlocking on the PA side but it was too dark. Is the old 1936 portion still using EP switches? Also what type of switches does the MFL use because its signals are also US&S.
CP1 Grand Central Split upper lower levels
CP3 Portal to Tunnels of Park Av
CP4 Prior to Split of Harlem/New Haven or Hudson Division
Cp5 Hudson Line 144 st
Split Between Harlem Line and Hudson Lines
CP6 Hudson Line Walton Av
CP7 Hudson Line Alexander Hamilton Bridge
BM after MP9
CP10 North of Marble Hill Station
CP11 South of Spuytn Duyvil Station
CP12 Jct of West Side Connection and the Hudson Line
CP19 Between Greystone and Hastings Station s
CP25 South of Tarrytown Stations
CP26 South of Philipse Manor
CP33 South of Croton Harmon
CP34 North of Croton Harmon south ends of Yards
Cp35 North end of Croton Yards
CP36 South of Osca Tunnel bet MP36 and MP37 before Cortlandt Station,
CP40 Entrance to Peekskill Station
CP48 Between Manitou and Garrison Station s
CP53 North of Cold Spring Station
CP58 Connection to Beacon Lne South of Beacon Station
CP61 from 3 tracks to 2 Tracks North of Beacon
Station
Cp64 South of New Hamburg Station Hudson Line
CP72 south of Poughkeepsie Station
CP75 North of Poughkeepsie at the Division Post for Metro North
HARLEM LINE
CP106 In the Melrose Tunnel S of t he Station
CP112 Wiithin the Woodlawn Station Area
and Split to New Haven Line
CP113 North of Mt Vernon West Station
CP116 South of Crestwood Station
2 to 3 tracks
CP117 North of Crestwood frmo 3 tracks to 2 tracks again
CP119 S of Scarsdale Station
CP121 N of Harstdale
CP123 S of N White Plains
CP124 N of N White Plains and Entr to Yard
CP132 S of Chappaqua Station
CP143 S of Goldens Bridge Station
CP152 Entr to Brewster Yard South of thestation
Brewster
CP153 Entrance to the North End of the Yard and North of the Station Brewster north
CP154 from 2 tracks to 1 Track
CP155 Entr to Beacon Line Connection
PAWL N of Pawling Station
DOVE BROOK N of Dover Plains Station
NEW HAVEN LINE
CP212 Connection to Harlem Line BEFORE the Bridge over the Harlem Line and all switches,,,3 tracks to 4 tracks
CP216 Connection to AMTRAK S of New Rochelle Station
CP217 North of New Rochelle Staiton
CP223 Between Harrison and Rye Stations
CP229 between Greenwich and Cos Cob Station s
CP232 CP233 Stamford Station
CP234 Yard Connect North of Stamford Station
CP235 Connection to New Canaan
Branch
CP240 S of S Norwalk Station
CP241 N of Norwalk Station and COnnection to Danbury Branch
CP244 N of Westport Station
CP255 S of Bridgeport Station
CP256 N of Bridgeport Station
CP257 Connection to Bridgewport Yards
CP261 COnnection to Waterbury Line
Cp271 CP272 New Haven Station West
Cp273 East ofthe Staton
CP274 Boston Connection
NEW CAANAN Branch
CP307 S of New Canaan
Danbury Branch
W A L K is connection to Danbury Line
GLOVE is S of Merritt 7 Staion
WILT is N of Wilton Staton
HILL is N of Branchville Station
DANN is S of Danbury Station
WATERBURY Line
CP500 is Connection to Main Line or 261 CP
HAT is conection to Danbury
BEAK is S of Beacon Falls Staiotn
EAGLE is S of Waterbury Station
BEACON LINE
River is Connection to Hudson Line
Hope is at Hopwell station
HOLM is at Holmes Staton
POND is the Connection to the Harlem Line
Empire (MP 1.0) after Tunnels from Penn Station A tower
Jervis (MP 1.5) West 49 st approx
Inwood MP9.9 Before the Bridge to the Bronx
Harold Interlocking
Pelham Bay MP15 before Hutch River Bridge
CP216 Connection to the New Haven Line
Penn Staton Leaving
in the North River Tunnels
CP MID MP1.5
TUnnel Exit
BERGEN MP3.7
ALLIED MP 4.o
PORTAL MP 6.0 at the Bridge
SWIFT MP 7.2
HUDSON 7.2 at eh Yards
HARRISON 8.3 at Harrison Station
DOCK 8.5 Before Newark Station
CLIFF MP 9.7
HUNTER MP 10.5 Connection to NK NJT
HIGH to NK Tower at .3
Lehigh Valley Line
HAYNES MP 11.3 S of Newark Airport Station
LANE MP 12.3 North of N Elizabeth Staton
and the Dumont Yards
ELMORA MP 14.7 before the Rahway Station
UNIION
GRAW connection to N Jersey Coast NJT South of Rahway Station
ISELIN MP 22.8 N of Metro Park
MENLO MP 23.7 S of Metro Park
LINCOLN MP 26 within the Metuchen Staton Area
EDISON MP 28.1 NOrth of Edison Staton
COUNTY is the Connecton to Jersey Av NJT Staton
MIDWAY is the Midway Yard
NASSAU is North of Princeton JCT
HAM is North of Trenton Station at the Yards
MP 55.7
Milham is the Old Tower South of MP 54
FAIR is ths Northern Entrance to the Trenton Staton
MP 56.4
MORRIS MP 58.3 athe Morrisville Yards and COnnections
If anyone wants the Tower Lists,,let me know
I have
Penn to Harrisburg(State)
Penn to Perry
Penn to CP V.
Trenton to Penn
Washington Terminal Station Area
One small correction: Elmora is just South of the Elizabeth Station. Union is the tower on the line to Trenton just South of Rahway Station.
Being in the bus tour business, I am constantly being sent brochures by different tourist attractions asking me to bring them groups. I just received one from the Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley RR that just opened in April of this year. They run excursion trains between Cooperstown, NY & Milford, NY. They are owned & operated by the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society. I plan to drive up there one Sunday to check them out. Their web site is www.lrhs.com
Saw another set of R142 waiting on the freight tracks near the New Lots station(L) yesterday around 7:30pm. It should be at its new home by now.............
3Train#2119Mike
3Train#2119Mike,
glad you were at least able to make a clean sighting. Why not let Stef know -- so he'll get advance notice and be in position (by his window) for 'em at the yard...
just a thought.
Doug aka BMTman
Where and when could I go to see an R142. I've never actually seen one with my own eyes before, and I would like to photogpraph it.
-Daniel
New Yok Area Railraods
New photos added to SIR, BMT/IND and NY Cross-Harbor pages.
Dyre Line, trains run from Pelham Pkwy to Baychester Av on the test track most weekdays and sometimes Saturdays, though lately they seem to only return to Pelham during the lunch hour, which is around noon. They also run on the Rockaway line, though not as often as the Dyre. When I saw it there they went both directions on the Southbound track from just S. of Howard Beach to Broad Channel, causing Southbound A delays. They pulled into Howard Beach northbound express track at high noon to allow the testers to go to lunch.
Why are they running the R142s to the Rockaways? It's not like they're ever going to run in regular service there? Test them on White Plains Road so I can see 'em. But last Friday I did get to see a set of 142s running down the WPR middle track, but just for a few seconds because it zipped right by my slowpoke R33 uptown #2 train. I got a quick peak at the rear of the train. Very nice.
The cars are being tested where there's space available to test them. There's just so much mainline space available.
The testing locations are on the Dyre Avenue Line and the Rockaway Line.
David
How about the northbound Sea Beach Express track? Nice run, not in use for revenue trains, etc .....
And Sea Beach Fred would approve, too, even if the equipment is "foreign" to the line :)
--Mark
06/03/2000
[How about the northbound Sea Beach Express track? Nice run, not in use for revenue trains, etc .....
And Sea Beach Fred would approve, too, even if the equipment is "foreign" to the line :)
With on the on going resignaling of the West End Line, sometimes the (B)'s are routed up or down the Sea Beach depending if they have to close that one track for that weekend.
Bill "Newkirk"
The R 142 School car is running on M Track on the White Plains Road line from Bronx Park East to Burke Ave. I had fun with that R 142 and passing the slow R 33'S.
Dave,
What is the top speed you've achieved in the R-142s, and how would you rate the acceleration compared to the Redbirds and R-62s?
My top speed was 43MPH going south approching Pelham Parkway. As far as acceleration its slower starting up but once it picks up it maintains good speed. It also alittle slower stopping as well.
As far as the Average speed the R 142 should do alittle better then the R 62'S.
Thanks for that repair, Dave. So from your explanation, can I assume you feel that they will maintain speed better going up grades than the current fleet since the field shunt mod?
Thanks for that reply, Dave. So from your explanation, can I assume you feel that they will maintain speed better going up grades than the current fleet since the field shunt mod?
Yes, You would be currect.
I've seen the 142's pass Simpson Street going southbound almost every weekday night around 10 PM for the past 2 -3 weeks.
Must be doing not in service route tests. I would imagine the same is being done on the Pelham line. Damn, I wish I lived within visual range of some sort of el.
Take the Dyre Av 5 train southbound. When you pass over the White Plains Rd. track, on the right, should be a 5 car set of R 142's. If you can't see them there, then you can always see them in the shop, but not the full car, just the end.
Clark Palicka
Where and when could I go to see an R142. I've never actually seen one with my own eyes before, and I would like to photogpraph it.
-Daniel
New York Area Railraods
New photos added to SIR, BMT/IND and NY Cross-Harbor pages.
The New York & Atlantic Railway moves the cars from Fresh Pond Yard (where they were brought down from Yonkers by the NY Connecting RR and turned over to NY&A) to the NYCT's IRT/BMT/LIRR connection in the New Lots section of Brooklyn.
The interchange between NY&A and NYCT occurs at or near Linden Shops (nearest subway station is New Lots Ave. on the "L"). A good vantage point from which to view the interchange and/or "convoy" of cars coming down the Bay Ridge LIRR Line would be from the Livonia station of the "L".
The deliveries of the R-142's is sporadic and from what I heard is done on an almost "spur-of-the-moment" basis from the manufacturer, so obtaining a "schedule" of car delivery dates is almost impossible.
Good luck in your attempts to capture any of these elusive cars on film.
Doug aka BMTman
F-Interlocking R-PSCC
Hunterspoint Station and Eastward,including the Montauck Cutoff Connection
HAROLD
WOOD R-Harold Woodside Station to Kew Gardens Station
JAY ----from Metro Av to Van Wck into the Station
,and the areas in the RIchmond Hill connector lead into Dunton
HALL --East of Jamiaca station including Montauk Connecting Tracks
.Holban Yard to Rosedale Station
HOLLIS --R-QUeens ,West of Hillside Yard to Queens VIllage Station
QUEENS --Tower is West of belmont Race Tracks , from Belmont Raceway to Floral Park Station
NASSAU from New Hyde Park to Westbury inclding Oyster Bay Connection ,,,Tower is East of Mineola Staiton
DIVIDE ,,,East and West of Hicksville,including Port Jeff Connection ,,Tower is between the PJ and Main Line Split
BETH
---R--Divide,,West of Bethpage to East,,inclding the Central Track Connection
FARM
Farmingddale East and West
JS R-Divide ,,,,Pinelawn to points East of Wyndach
BRENT r-Divide
Deer Park to Central Islp
KO R-Divide
West of Ronkonkoma to East including the Yard
VALLEY ,,Tower is East of Sttion
,,,from West of VS to Lynbrook including Far Rocka and the Long Beach tracks into Lynbrook
ROCKY,,R--Valley.Babylon
,,Rockville Ctr to Freeport
PORT ,,R-same,,,Freeport Sation and the Layup tracks
,,east of the Freeport Sation
WANTAGH
R--Same
,Merrick to Massapequa
AMITYVILLE--R--same
..Mass Park to Lindenhrst
BABYLON--
Tower is Wast of Staton
,Central Branch into Babylon including the Yard East of Station (Babylon)
Y,from 2 tracks into the 1 track section before Patchoque ,,,,
PD is East of Patchoque is where is the tower is '
----Controls east and west of the station
MS is Bellport to East of Mastic Shirley with all Layup tracks east of Mastic Shirley
BROOK is Flatbush Av Sttion ,,Tower is in the Staiton
VAN is east of the point mentioned,,controls the Yard
to Nostrand Av
DUNTON is frmo ENY to the Yard,,and into Morris PkLeads Area
VALLEY is Valley Stream Station
Tower is After the Staion ,,after the Far Rockaway Branch Tracks
and the West Hempstead Lead Tracks
also controls the Lynbrook statoin and Far Rock Branches ,the Long Beach Branch to Oceanside only
LEAD is Island Pk to Long Beach ,,Tower is North of Long BEach Station and Yard
GARDEN ,,,R-Queens
...Garden City to Hempstead Branch Tracks and the Mitchell Field Tracks,,Floral Pk to Hempstead Staton
BETH ,R-Divide
Central Line fromMain Line to Montauck ,Babylon INterlocking
NASSAU ,,East Willeston to Glen Head
LOCUST Sea Cliff to Oyster Bay
DIVIDE frmo Divide Tower to Syosett
AMOTT -R_Divide,,,,,Syosett
to Cold Spring
HUNT R--Divide
East and West of Huntington including all Yard Tracks
DUKE R-Divide
Greenlawn to Nortport
FOX---R-Diviide
Northport to Kings Park
POST R-Divide
Smithtown to St James
STONY R-Divide
St James to East of Stony Broook
JEFF
R--Divide
Port Jefferson Yard and Station
WOOD R-Harold
from the Amtrak Tracks to Woodside
SHEA--R-Harold
Shea Stadium and the Yard
BAY R-Harold
from Flushing to Little Neck
GREAT NECK R-Harold
Great Neck to Port Washnton
VALLEY control the West Hempstead Branch
I went on a railfanning trip to Philly today. Rode the Market-Frankford line to both ends. At the 69st end I transfered to the SEPTA Route 100 Norristown line. I got to say, those things can fly. Fast acceleration and great top speed. Wish the NYCTA system was like that. Even the subway system seems faster. Next time I going to venture on the PATCO and local trolleys.
Some questions:
1) How come SEPTA token booths don't sell tokens. The clerk told me to buy it from the vending machine. They collect fare if you dont have a token and buzz you thought the turnstyle.
2) Why are some subway stations only 2 or 3 blocks apart?
3) How are the PATCO trains? How much does it cause to go from 15st to Lindenwood?
The view from the route 100 Norristown terminal is great. Birds eye view of the SEPTA rail station and the bridge over the river. Too bad I didn't have a camera.
[How are the PATCO trains? How much does it cause to go from 15st to Lindenwood?]
Any Phila station to Woodcrest, Ashland or Lindenwold is $1.85 each way. Consider riding the NJT Phila-Atlantic City train either way between 30th Street and Lindenwold and PATCO the other way. NJT shares former PRR/PRSL right of way with PATCO from Haddonfield to Lindenwold (separate track). NJT fare is $3 between 30th St and Lindenwold.
Bob
If you just want to ride round trip on PATCO to Lindenwold and back w/o exiting the system its just 75 cents. Buy a one trip, All Philly stations ticket and then just ride out to Lindenwold. get off the train and then wait or another one to leave westbound. the Stations are so close in Centre City beause 8th is PATCO, 11th is reading terminal, 13th is Subway Surface terminal and 15th is City Hall/Suburban Station.
Why is Suburban Station called that? Because of it's service to the suburbs?
What was it, Reading or PRR?
Suburban is called that because of the two words in the name. Sub means under, and urban is an adjective to describe the area of Philadelphia the station is in. Under Urban=Suburban.
No, it's called Suburban because the original (60 years ago)Pennsylvania RR configuration was 1) many trains went into Center City Philadelphia on an elevated structure (now replaced by JFK Blvd) into Broad St Station (long gone). Through trains that didn't go into Broad St. and then turn around stopped only in North Philadelphia, the one through station in Philadelphia at the time.
Then they built 30th St. Station so 1) they could tear down the so-called Chinese Wall, and 2) so all main line trains through Philadelphia could stop a mere 1.5 miles from City Hall rather than 4 miles away in North Philadelphia, Broad and Glenwood.
The elevated wall's replacement was a short underground tunnel from 24-16 St. so PRR trains from the SUBURBs could go all the way into Center City (16 & the new JFK Blvd., originally called Pennsylvania Blvd, I believe.) Hence the name "Penn Suburban Station". Reading Line trains still went into Reading Terminal from the north along their own elevated wall.
In the early 80s they connected the two by building Market East station to replace Reading Terminal, tearing down the wall (or at least they should have) and connecting the two lines underneath Filbert St., also renaming Penn Suburban Station to be merely Suburban Station. Now the two commuter train systems are merged to be like the RER in Paris, which truly is a great idea.
Each R# line is made up of a Pennsylvania RR line through the Center City tunnel continuing as a Reading RR line. That's why on the map they look so confusing and why many go through two North Philadelphia station: the PRR station and the Reading RR station.
Actually Suburban Station was built in the 30', almost 20 years b4 they tore down Broad St. The PRR probably saw the writing on the wall and used the Suburban Station for the commuter trains and Broad St. for the remaining long distance trains ntill the long distance train market dried up and all service could be dirverted into 30th St.
Suburban Station opened in 1930; Broad Street Station closed in 1952. PRSL trains to the shore originated in Broad Street until it closed, then had to start at 30th St; steam and diesel couldn't use the tunnel.
Bob
If you do this, remember to leave PATCO at a different station in Phila than the one you entered. Otherwise, your ticket will not pass thru the turnstile and you'll have to deal with the Control Center. It's a little-known thing and PATCO doesn't publicize it but it is a cheap way to tour the system. Of course, as I've always said, PATCO is still a bargain regardless of the recent fare increase.
Another way to tour some rail lines in this corridor is to start at 30th St, take NJT's Atlantic City train to Lindenwold and change there for PATCO back to Phila, transferring to the Market-Frankford El at 8th-Market to return to 30th St if need be (or walking from 16th-Locust to Suburban Station, roughly four blocks).
[Another way to tour some rail lines in this corridor is to start at 30th St, take NJT's Atlantic City train to Lindenwold and change there for PATCO back to Phila, transferring to the Market-Frankford El at 8th-Market to return to 30th St if need be (or walking from 16th-Locust to Suburban Station, roughly four blocks).]
Or walk back (in the subway concourse) from 15/16th or forward (in the subway concourse) from 12/13th to the Broad Street Subway and take it one stop north to Market-Frankford El or subway surface light rail (trolleys) at City Hall (free transfer from BSS) or railfan the BSS first. Or walk the subway concourse from 12/13 or 15/16 to Suburban Station.
Bob
The main purpose of the guys in the little booth is to give and accept transfers to and from bus routes. In the distant past they also made change and sold tokens. But it's the transfer dispersal and verification that is their main job.
Chicago and Baltimore have the same thing, though Baltimore doesn't have transfers anymore, rather the guy gives out and verifies the DayPass now.
the booth guys give out maps and sell passes. The day pass is $5 for unlimited rides on buses and all Septa subways, plus one free regional rail ride. Since regional rail fare to Trenton is $5, so it's basically free rides all day in Philly if you go the cheap way.
BTW: I have a map of SEPTA identical to the one on the website and on the regional rail trains which folds up to the size of a credit card. I got it at Walnut-Locust, the booth guy said it costs $2 but he gave it to me for free.
1. Does it actually cost $2?
2. Where can I get another one? All I keep getting are those Center City only ones.
Not all booths sell tokens/passes and the ones that do don't all do it full time. (It's like a Murphy's Law - when you're counting on one of those that do sell these, you're probably going to be disappointed.) In fact, the majority of the booths DON'T sell these items, give change, etc.
The fold-up Regional Rail map doesn't cost $2. You see it infrequently, mainly at SEPTA community events and give-away booths, and I've never seen a charge made for it. Occasionally it pops up in the racks at Suburban Station, SEPTA HQ, etc. If I see one, I'll give you a holler.
Try the Transit Museum gift shop or Customer Service at Suburban. They usually carry them.
If you want one of those small fold-up SEPTA maps, I can send one to you. Please advise where to send, etc.
OK, since I don't yet have Dougherty's track book, which clears things up on this topic pretty easily:
Pre-Chrystie Street connection in '67, did N trains going over the Manhattan Bridge connect to Broadway? How did Brighton and West End trains get to Manhattan? Did all service wind up at Chambers Street?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Before Christie Sea Beach, Brighton, and West End services went up Broadway.
N - Broadway Sea Beach Express - 57th St to Coney Island
T - Broadway West End Express - Astoria or 57th St to Coney Island
Q - Broadway Brighton Express - 57th St to Brighton Beach
QB - Broadway Brighton Local via Bridge - Astoria to Coney Island
QT - Broadway Brighton Local via Tunnel - Astoria to Coney Island
RR - Broadway 4th Ave Local - Forest Hills or 57th St to 95 St
Note that the QT operated weekdays, QB operated weeknights and all weekend.
Dont forget that before Chrystie Street the NORTH side tracks connected to Broadway, the south side tracks went to Nassau Loop.
wayne
Yes, and I remember going over the bridge on the north side on that N train back in 1965.
Say, Wayne, guess what movie they were showing on American Movis Classics the other day. A Night at the Opera!. I missed it, but thought about your descriptions of trains emptying out on several occasions.
The Q and QT operated together at the same time; the QB held down the fort by itself on the Brighton line during other times. After 1966, the Q ran local in Brooklyn during middays. This tidbit needs to be corrected in the Line by Line section; specifically, QT trains did not operate 24/7 in the immediate pre-Chrystie St. period.
The T was essentially a rush hour and Saturday operation just before Chrystie St. It ran to Astoria during weekdays and 57th St. on Saturdays.
Of the three Broadway express services, only the N operated 24/7.
RR trains ran to Continental Ave. during weekdays and to 57th St. other times.
The south side bridge tracks were used almost exclusively during rush hours by Bankers Specials, and then those trains typically deadheaded over the bridge.
I remember seeing QB and T trains on Saturdays during the early fall of 1967 just before Chrystie St.
The descriptions missed the TT (West End local) service via tunnel to Chambers St. which operated M-F daytime (rush hours to Bay Pkwy, midday to Coney Island). The TT also opearated as a shuttle from 36th St. to Coney Island nights and Sundays.
As for the Q (Brighton express) running local in Brooklyn middays M-F, this started in the mid-50s and lasted until Chrystie St. opened.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, it was a bit more complex for the "TT". Depending on the time during the rush hours, "TT" locals could have terminated at either Bay Parkway, 62nd Street or 9th Avenue. For the afternoon rush hour (at least), the "TT"s started terminating at 9th Avenue first (around 4PM), then moved out to 62nd Street, then (finally) Bay Parkway, at which point some of the equipment was probably forwarded to the Coney Island yards for storage. I believe that the morning rush operated in the reverse order, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge about this.
I notice that much of the older Brooklyn service pattern was less focused on Manhattan, and was more an internal Brooklyn system. Obviously, Brooklyn was more of its own economy early in the 20th Century. What do we understand of the patterns of use and development of the old Brooklyn system? Did people work in downtown Brooklyn and take transit back to the residential neighborhoods at night? Or was it more complex than this? I am interested in any insights people may have.
[I notice that much of the older Brooklyn service pattern was less focused on Manhattan, and was more an internal Brooklyn system. Obviously, Brooklyn was more of its own economy early in the 20th Century. What do we understand of the patterns of use and development of the old Brooklyn system? Did people work in downtown Brooklyn and take transit back to the residential neighborhoods at night? Or was it more complex than this? I am interested in any insights people may have.]
Your supposition is correct. Downtown Brooklyn once was a much more significant employment center than it is today, comparatively speaking. There also was a great deal of commuter traffic to other employment centers within the borough, such as the Navy Yard and Bush Terminal.
Also along the water front, Factories Like Dutch Boy Paint, Howard Clothes not to mention a few
Let's put it this way.
In 1950, Brooklyn had two economic bases -- commutation to Manhattan, and factories and shipping in Brooklyn.
In 2000 it still has two economic bases -- commutation to Manhattan, and welfare payments and government-funded non-profits in Brooklyn.
Commuting to Manhattan is about what it was. On the other hand, welfare recipients don't need to go anywhere, and those working in the non-profits that "serve" them drive. Workfare has probably contributed to the rise in subway ridership.
The BMT concentrated on Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Service patterns which did fine in the 40's and 50's would be useless today. The Nassau St line was once a major route for the BMT Southern Division. Today, it rates only limited rush hour service.
The BMT also planned on having the Broadway line run way up into Manhattan, thus the city hall station. Nassau st. line got ridership because it went over the Manhattan bridge in that loop.
I was going to mention the TT, but didn't because the original inquiry was about Broadway service. Anyway, wasn't it true that TT trains would lay up in Fresh Pond and/or ENY yards during middays? I remember seeing a TT train of R-32s at ENY on July 20, 1967 from the Eastern Parkway platform on the Canarsie line.
I've checked several older maps on this website, plus my 1964 World's Fair map, and only the 1966 map mentions the Q running local in Brooklyn from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. Perhaps this was overlooked on earlier maps.
I've checked several older maps on this website, plus my 1964 World's Fair map, and only the 1966 map mentions the Q running local in Brooklyn from 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM. Perhaps this was overlooked on earlier maps.
Lots of these finer details were overlooked on earlier maps.
-- Ed Sachs
I believe it.
There first decent map did not come out until 1967 with the Christie Street Connection
I remember the Brighton express running express middays from when I first became subway aware around 1959 until maybe around 1964 or 1965. Then they had the Q run local during midday for a couple of years. Then when the D started, they reinstitued express service. I think they switched to midday local service after the year of A-B skip-stop service they had while rebuilding the Newkirk Avenue station to accept 10-car trains (600').
For the record, Parkside, Ave J were "A" (Brighton Express) stations, Beverly, Cortelyou, Avenue H, and Avenue M, were "B" (Brighton Local) stations. The reason they did this was that the local track wall was being dynamited and rebuilt at Newkirk, so they connected the local tracks to the express tracks both north and south of Newkirk Avenue one Saturday night, ran the new service for a year or two, then reconnected back the old way for 4-track service one Saturday night.
During those two Saturday nights, a shuttle bus ran from Cortelyou Road (where the Brighton line had to stop) to Newkirk and on to Avenue H, which the Sea Beach Line ran though to that one night only.
At Joeseph Korman's website, he had (or may still have) a scan of a service brochure from 1966 explaining the loss of midday express service because of construction of platform extensions along the whole line to accept 600' trains. I believe that there was a period where temporary wooden platform extensions were used when local stations were being extended, with all trains running on the express tracks.
At Joeseph Korman's website, he had (or may still have) a scan of a service brochure from 1966 explaining the loss of midday express service because of construction of platform extensions along the whole line to accept 600' trains. I believe that there was a period where temporary wooden platform extensions were used when local stations were being extended, with all trains running on the express tracks.
No, the trains all ran on the local tracks. The express tracks dead ended on either side of Newkirk Ave. station, and the local tracks were re-routed through Newkirk to the express tracks, then back again. This was done so that the retaining walls could be taken down and the cut widened at the north end of Newkirk Ave. station to allow the platforms to be lengthened. However, at all other stations, the normal local tracks were used.
During the skip-stop period, the Brighton Express trains (rush hours only in those days) still used the express tracks between Kings Highway and Brighton Beach.
The Skip-Stop service began in Jaunuary, 1964. It was originally slated to start the previous Novemeber, but the TA was pressured into delaying the start until after the Christmas shopping season. The work was supposed to take a year, but they managed to get all 4 tracks back in operation by Thanksgiving 1965 (an unusual NYC project which actually got done early!).
Interesting note: If you look at the Skip Stop brochure on Joe Korman's web site, you will note that it refers to the Brighton Express as the No. 1. They were still running triplexes when it started. By the time the work was done 10 mos. later, it was R-32 Q trains.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed: I thought the Triplexes were put in mothballs on July 23, 1965. If they were used on the Brighton in 1966-67 it would stand to reason that not all the Triplexes were taken out of service. Does this also hold true for my Sea Beach, or were the Tpxs just eliminated from this line? I do know that besides the Brighton carrying the #1, the Sea Beach carried the #4 periodically until the Chrystie Street connection went into effect. That meant the Sea Beach carried the "N" sign, and the #4, depending on what type of train ran on that line. Is this so?
BTW, as I write this, I'm wearing my "N" shirt that Brighton Beach Bob sent to me when he was in New York. I'm quite proud of it and wear it with pride.
As I said in my previous post, the Triplexes disappeared from the Brighton express during 1964, replaced by R-32s. Once the Brighton express was done, the went to the Sea Beach Express next. Yes, it is true that during the transition, trains had different markers depending upon what kind of equipment, letters (Q, N) on the R-32s and numbers (1, 4) on the Triplexes.
The Triplexes were all retired at least two years before the Chrystie St. connector opened. By 1967, the only BMT equipment still displaying numbers were the R-16s. These cars were fitted with new roll signs for the Chrystie St. opening, and after that were routinely intermingled with the R-27/30s.
-- Ed Sachs
Thank you Big Ed. And with that I have narrowed it down to a matter of days when the numbers were replaced by letters on the BMT.
The last Triplexes ended their careers on the West End. Once they were retired, number markings were no longer used on the Southern Division except for the Franklin Ave. shuttle, where the R-11s ran with their #7 signs.
I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In April 1965 there were as many as nine trains still in service on the West End Express which a few appearances on the West End Local and the Sea Beach Express. When they were removed from service on July 23 the following units were still in service 6019,6022,6030,6038,6043,6048,6080,6089,6093,6095,6101,6103,6104,6106 and 6112.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Have you washed it yet?????
Yes I did, or, rather, my wife did. In Tide if you have to know. And it smells so fresh. Glad to know you are looking after my interest, and I have made getting you the Brighton Shirt my first order of priority when I get to New York-----even before riding the Sea Beach to Coney Island. How's that for service?
So which one are you going to get, the D or the Q?
The D, they do nt make a Q. For you baseball fans they have 2 other t shirts. One with the 7 in it saying Willets Point-Sheas Stadium and the other 4-B-D 161st-River Ave-Yankee Stadium
If the number of Brighton fans on this site is any indication, somebody made a poor judgement economically in not printing any Q shirts.
Pigs: Why the D, of course. That goes from the Bronx to Coney, and to me that's the real Brighton. Of course, if Bob tells me he wants the Q, he will get the Q. I just hope they have his size. I really like the shirt he got me. I wear it a lot.
With the swiftness that the Slow.....er Sea Beach travels these days Bob may have to wait a bit longer than you think until you get him his shirt.
Just what I need to hear, another smart-alecky Brighton snob trying to rain on my Sea Beach parade. Come on out there, there must be a few other Sea Beach boys out there. I'm getting hit from all sides.
Give it up Fred, your Memory of the Slow Beach Exp is from the 40s and 50s. AIN T THE SAME DUDE.
I'm the eternal optimist Bob. Someday the Sea Beach will be an express again, will cross the Manhattan Bridge, have its stations refurbished, and be the signature line it once was. You see there is something about a subway cut that gives the appearance of a subway, yet if you move your eyes you get a unique picture of the streets above. There is no way I'm going to give that up.
I remember the mid 50s on the Brighton. The Express ran from Brighton Beach-Astoria 6AM-9PM. Via Bride .The local ran at those times from Coney island to Forest Hills via Tunnel. at t At all other times the local ran to Astoria, Express in Manhatten via Bridge and Local in Brooklyn. The Nassau Loop was served by Culver Exp 3 in each direction, other Culver Locals ran via Tunnel to Chambers St up Nassau St
I forgot to mention the Express was Mon-Sat
Also:
The M Brighton Express to Chambers St. (rush hours)
The TT West End Local to Chambers St.
On many els, wooden fences with chicken wire have been placed between the local and express tracks.
Purpose?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[On many els, wooden fences with chicken wire have been placed between the local and express tracks.
Purpose?]
So flaggers aren't needed if there are workers on the tracks?
06/02/2000
[So flaggers aren't needed if there are workers on the tracks? ]
That's right Peter, this is an ongoing thing with the resignaling of the West End Line. The Sea Beach had those fences too when that line was resignaled.
Bill "Newkirk"
So the cost of putting in those fences is less than paying for flagmen? I suppose if the project were long enough....
Is the resignalling just replacement of older infrastructure, or is a different method of signalling being employed?
Dave
Simple: To keep chickens from crossing the tracks.
-- David
Boston, MA
Q: Why did the chicken cross the express tracks?
A: To get to the other side!
Yuk, yuk, yuk. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.
NO,NO,NO
Because behind him was a porter with two biscuits and a bottle of HOT SAUCE.
avid
They're not just on the els. The Sea Beach Line also has them.
irritate them with high speed scrolling text
www.suv.com has a posting board on all the suv's on the road. It should be discuss there, not here.
Paul
once again, Heypaul innovates SubTalk.
We touch on transit-related issues, and SUVs are the competition.
I agree. Somehow off topic issues always wind up here. And then they get deleted.... I suppose some old habits are hard to break.
-Stef
It's related to transportation, whether you are pro-SUV, anti-SUV or are proud that you are still driving around in a fuel-efficient 1988 Tercel without air-conditioning.
Now, THAT'S R-10 speed!!:-)
Of course, I've been known to pop heypaul's LL/CC tape into my Jeep's cassette player and crank it up. Now if I could figure out how to synchronize the train sounds with driving...
hey steve... thanks for your continued endorsements of the r9 train sound tapes... i will put this testimonial into my file to show the center for disease control, when they come to check on those ugly rumors claiming that listening to the r9 tapes has caused the mental illness of 7 subtalkers who are no longer able to post on subtalk... your playing it a high volume in your jeep proves that it has in no way affected your ability to function...
i have always maintained that those 7 unfortunate subtalkers had preexisting conditions before they listened to those tapes...
Heypaul, my pleasure. I said it before and I'll say it again: I highly recommend that tape to anyone who remembers the R-1/9s as fondly as I do, or who may be curious as to what they were like.
I still need to pick up a subwoofer for my stereo. That would add some nice subway-style rumble to the floor...
Why don't you just NOT READ THE THREAD?!
Can someone explain to me what happened to the bronx in the late 60's and mi-70's Why did they say the Bronx was on fire? How safe is the borough today.
[Can someone explain to me what happened to the bronx in the late 60's and mi-70's Why did they say the Bronx was on fire? How safe is the borough today.]
There is no single reason why the Bronx deteriorated so badly. Rent control, escalating crime, poor schools, and the migration of the middle classes to the suburbs all played a part. All of these causes fed upon one another (for instance, crime led to more suburban migration which led to declining schools which led to crime ...) It's difficult or impossible to isolate one or more causes as the leading ones.
The decline of the Bronx can be divided into three parts.
Part 1, 1950s -- 1960s:
Portions of the South Bronx built with low quality tenaments (think Third Avenue El) and occupied by the working poor deteriorated. Whites moved out, poor blacks and Latinos moved in, then the buildings were allowed to deteriorate further, until they were abandoned.
The city's economy was booming at the time, and tons of subsidized middle and moderate income housing was being built. Parkchester, Coop City, etc. Working people moved there, better off people moved to the suburbs. The city added 350,000 housing units in the 1950s, and an equal number in the 1960s, but the population did not rise. In 1970, the poor "South Bronx" as people understood it stopped at 161st St west of Webster Avenue.
Part II 1970s:
The whole Northeast and New York City go into a deep economic decline. Better off parts of the West Bronx go through a rapid abandonment by affluent and working whites and occupation by poor Blacks and Latinos, and some landlords start torching their buildings for the insurance. These are the "art-deco" middle and upper income apartment houses on the two hills -- on the Grand Councourse, and off University Avenue. NYC goes bust. NYU abandons its hilltop campus in University Heights. During the 1977 World Series, which took place in part in Yankee Stadium, the flames are visible from the press box. Affluent suburbanites are shocked to see affluent areas -- the ones they came in flames. Howard Cosell, the most famous sports announcer in America, announces "The Bronx is Burning" on national TV.
Part III 1980s and 1990s:
The city's economy turns around, and so do many "inner city" neighborhoods with good access to Manhattan. But not the Bronx. Why? My theory is that the six to ten story apartment building has been rejected by the middle class. There is a market for towers in Manhattan, a market for townhouses in the other boroughs, and a market for detached houses in the suburbs. But the better areas of the Bronx were build with 1920s and 1930s apartment buildings.
In "Brownstone Brooklyn," a middle income family could buy a rowhouse originally built for the affluent on the cheap, and fix it up with sweat equity themselves. Many did so. As a result, neighborhoods came back, and "Brownstone Brooklyn" is now the richest area of the city outside Manhattan. In the Bronx, you have apartment buildings owned by absentee landlords that require a large amount of capital and expertise to renovate and operate. And if your neighbor happens to be a drug dealer or criminal, he has a right to his housing, and there is nothing that can be done about it.
Still, I expect the better areas of the Bronx to come back sooner or later. Perhaps by 2020.
Neighborhoods get old and they sometimes die out. I fault the continuation of rent-control after WW2 for the decline of the city's rental housing stock.
Well, Larry started to tell about the history of the South Bronx. It was even MORE complex then what he'd said. I am an unofficial, self-proclaimed South Bronx historian. I spent between 6-8 months vigorously reasearching the rise and fall of the South Bronx. Believe it or not, during the Harlem Renaissance, places like Hunt's Point (now known for it's drug problems and prostitution) were some of the nicest, most desirable places to live in NYC. What Larry told you all about the South Bronx has a lot of truth, but there is a lot more to be added in between. I plan on majoring in Urban Studies/Sociology and Social Work and writing my college thesis on the South Bronx. While I may not be able to answer all your question, if you have specific questions on this, e-mail me at: Nordica@aol.com
[Part III 1980s and 1990s:
The city's economy turns around, and so do many "inner city" neighborhoods with good access to Manhattan. But not the Bronx. Why? My theory is that the six to ten story apartment building has been rejected by the middle class. There is a market for towers in Manhattan, a market for townhouses in the other boroughs, and a market for detached houses in the suburbs. But the better areas of the Bronx were build with 1920s and 1930s apartment buildings.]
Could be. But you'll see midsized apartment buildings in parts of Brooklyn and Queens, even some places in Manhattan and suburban towns, but they haven't deteriorated as much as they have in much (not all, of course) of the Bronx.
Frankly, as someone whose family originated in the Bronx, I think the difficult truth of the Bronx is that it has too few middle class amenities relative to the other boroughs. Public schools are hopeless, and there are few private alternatives. There are few museums and colleges. There are not even many libraries. While the Bronx is the most attractive borough in terms of its natural landscape (think the Botanical Gardens) the intense level of development has left relatively little parkland in areas where people actually live (not Van Cortland Park, which is peripheral.) I do believe that the Bronx can and should "come back", but this will only happen when a decision is made to develop amenities in the borough to serve the middle classes.
(Frankly, as someone whose family originated in the Bronx, I think the difficult truth of the Bronx is that it has too few middle class amenities relative to the other boroughs).
The is a-historic The borough with the fewest middle class amenities is definately Brooklyn. The Bronx have lost amenities, but it did have them.
Brooklyn has the least parkland relative to population, the Bronx has the most. Van Cortlandt Park may be peripheral, but Prospect Park is the only major facility in Brooklyn.
The Bronx has Fordham and Manhattan College. It HAD New York University. Lehman College was the first home of the U.N.
The 1969 Plan recounts the excellent public schools outside the South Bronx, while expressing concern about Brooklyn's schools. Of course, after the 1960s teacher's strike and the creation of community school boards the entire system went to pot, but this was after the fact.
The Bronx is closer to Manhattan, in subway travel time, than Brooklyn.
Monsholu and Pelham Parkway are at least the equal of Ocean and Eastern Parkway.
In a value free-sense, housing in the art-deco era apartment buildings in the Bronx is superior to the Brownstones of Brooklyn. But people value their own homes, and are willing to invest sweat and money to restore them. Few people value six story apartment buildings, and absentee landlords are prone to milk and burn them.
(I do believe that the Bronx can and should "come back", but this will only happen when a decision is made to develop amenities in the borough to serve the middle classes).
How about vouchers for school choice? Right now the middle class has a de facto voucher system -- you pick your school when you pick your suburb -- while working people and the poor have no choice. Give everyone a choice, in the city and out, and things will change.
I thought the first home of the United Nations (the convention and charter in 'Frisco doesn't really count) was Flushing Meadows.
You forgot Marine Park, and the parks in Dyker Beach, also how about the Apts in Brooklyn Hts, and the Promanade overlooking the River and the Downtown Skyline. Also The boardwalk in Brighton and Coney island. Remember Brooklyn for most of it s history was a seperate city until it was FORCED to merge with NYC, The Bronx was always part of NYC. The only places I would go in the Bronx are the Stadium and Bronx Park, everything else is duplicated any where in the city, let alone the country
Marine Park between Fillmore Avenue and Avenue U is only 3 long blocks by 5.66 short blocks. The .66 is because it runs to E 32nd between Fillmore and S and to 33rd between S and U. Most of Marine Park is south of Avenue U, and is undeveloped except for a golf course, which requires owning or renting golf equipment, so it's not really public recreation.
Similar can be said of Dyker, the part between Cropsey Avenue extension and 86th Street is the golf course, and the part between Cropsey Ext and the Belt Parkway is not that large and does not have much.
There are also Boardwalks in Rockaway Beach, South/Midland Beach and Orchard Beach (all right, not the same in OB).
As for Bronx always being part of New York City, I think you should take your own advice and think before you speak (or type). What we now call the Borough of The Bronx, or Bronx County was established as part of West Chester County on November 1, 1683. The county's seat was established in the Town of West Chester, incorporated at the same time from a village. There were nineteen other towns in the county.
By 1873, The City of New York had expanded to overtake the villages (later towns) of Greenwich and Harlem in it's own county to become the first city in New York to occupy one whole county.
On January 1, 1874, the City of New York annexed the Westchester County towns of Morrisania, West Farms and Kingsbridge into itself. At the same time, that area was moved to New York County.
In 1888, the city had bought lands in the annexed district/23rd ward for parkland. These included Mt. Eden, Crotona and Bronx Parks. A portion of Bronx Park was in the Town of Eastchester, all of Pelham Bay Park was in the Town of Pelham. On January 1, 1895, the city had expanded it's boundaries to the Long Island Sound by taking portions of the Towns of Pelham and Eastchester, including the incorporated village of Wakefield in Eastchester (now you know why the border has that bump where the 2 train ends), and all of Westchester. Ironically, the county's namesake is now in NYC.
In 1898, the 23rd and 24th wards formed the Borough of the Bronx, which was part of NY County until 1914.
Kings County consisted of 6 towns in 1683: Brooklyn, New Utrecht, Flatbush, Bushwick, Flatlands and Gravesend.
In 1816, the core of Brooklyn Town had incorporated as the Village of Brooklyn.
In 1837, Brooklyn became a city.
In 1827, the Village of Williamsburgh had formed in Bushwick.
In 1841, Williamsburg became a city.
In 1844, Williamsburg and Bushwick were annexed to Brooklyn
In 1852, the Town of New Lots had formed from a part of the Town of Flatbush.
In 1886, New Lots was annexed to the City of Brooklyn
In 1894, Flatbush, New Utrecht and Gravesend fell prey to the ravenous Brooklyn, leaving only Flatlands alone with Brooklyn in Kings County, until...
1896, when the City of Brooklyn had come to control all of Kings County.
We all know what happened in 1898.
As much as I like to talk about how bad it was that Brooklyn sold out in 1898, there are a few facts that I'm sure you'd like to be confused with:
In the non-binding 1895 referendum, every portion of what became NYC, voted FOR consolidation. Richmond County voted in favor of it by the highest margin (ironic, isn't it), with Kings County voting the least overwhelmingly. Manhattan did vote, but many were not sure they wanted to subsidize the riff-raff out in the country (like Queens).
Once the state legislature approved consolidation, the matter had to be approved by the mayors of the cities in the concerned area. This meant, New York, Long Island City and BROOKLYN. Needless to say, the matter was approved.
Those Brooklynites consider New York's ruthless acquisition as wrong need only look at Brooklyn itself, and it's acquisition after acquisition throughout the county. Brooklyn ate all the little fish, only to be eaten by the bigger fish.
If Brooklyn went out kicking and screaming, it certainly was all for show.
Probably the single thing that would make a difference would be ending rent control in Manhattan (and preferably everywhere else in NYC.) Once the middle classes considered where else they could go, the Bronx's advantages would become apparent. The quality of the apartment housing stock is what once made the Bronx the de facto first "suburban" community for those who were seeking better conditions than were available in the slums of Manhattan. Of course, the slums of Manhattan are gone now, and many of those areas like Hells Kitchen, the Lower East Side, and Little Italy are now gentrifying. The Bronx could be next, if the apartment model of living appeals to middle class residents. The question is what could create this apartment-dwelling bourgeoise class in the Bronx? It may not be possible.
If anyone has noticed, if you take the Bruckner Expressway south - to NYC, as you pass through the South Bronx you will see on your right a large sign next to an old factory with a tall chimney.
The sign reads LOFTS FOR RENT. Lofts - the same word used to describe the warehouse-turned-apartment buildings in Brooklyn and the West Side. There is a number there you can call and I have been meaning to call out of curiousity. If the rents are high, chances are they are looking to bring in some big spenders into the area.
The NY Post a few months back mentioned that an old casket factory in the Mott Haven area is being converted into lofts. The developer joked that this may very well lead to the "yuppification" of the area.
Stranger things have happened but artist taking loft space in the south Bronx is a real pioneer.
Oh no, not yuppies in the South bronx. What has this world come to!
"Oh no, not yuppies in the South bronx. What has this world come to!"
Of course! Yuppie lofts, Starbucks coffee shops, and fern bars are MUCH MUCH worse than the blocks upon blocks of vacant buildings (or just dirt) of the 1970s and early '80s.
The one thing that could rejuvinate the Bronx is for Blacks and Latinos that get an educatoin and succeed to stay rather than leave. I lived in a house with a bunch of Latino's from the Bronx in college. Those people are GONE. All those who flunked out, went on welfare, ended up on drugs, etc. are still here. As long as that continues, no matter how many individuals succeed, the Bronx will stay poor.
We've talked out about the fact that image is more important than reality. I think if a bunch of Latino celeberties start moving into one or two of the grand old apartment buildings in the Grand Concourse, the area could become hip with LUPPIES, is there is such a term. What ever happened to that Latin music venue that was proposed for the big old theater on the Concourse at Fordham Road?
Hey, it's too late guys- THERE'S A STARBUCKS ON FORDHAM RD.!!! AHHHH! God, wait a few months and the Starbucks infection may spread to Burnside Ave. and Tremont.
There's also a Barnes & Noble in the Bronx and it is not even in Riverdale or near a major college or university. It is in the Bay Plaza center near Co-op City. Now we can dispell the rumors that Bronx people don't read.
One major poblemo is that the building owners in the Bronx don't live there. Most live in Manhattan or in Westchester. Many are in it for the money. They place "section 8" people in apartments. Whether they pay rent or not, the subsidy comes in. What do they care for good decent people.
The image portrayed in the media, not just for the bronx but the entire city, is at fault. It is refreshing when I hear tourists visiting the nearby zoo or Botanical Gardens tell me what a nice time they had.
Joe C.
First, end it in the outer boroughs, where the controlled rent is closer to the market rent. After the riffraff start leaving, end it in Manhattan so that the resulting vacuum will be filled.
Very Good History Lesson Pigs, one for you
[The Bronx vs. Brooklyn]
Another difference between the two boroughs is that Brooklyn has an independent economic base. Manufacturing and shipping are still important components of the economy regardless of whatever declines they may have experienced. And Downtown Brooklyn has a reasonable number of front- and back-office jobs.
You don't see that in the Bronx. There's no shipping, only a modest level of manufacturing*, no office space to speak of, and in fact no real downtown. About the only major non-governmental economic activity is at the Hunts Point market and the retail cluster near Co-op City.
Essentially, Brooklyn is considered a place in economic decline not so much because of the way it appears today, but because of what it used to be like. The Bronx, in contrast, is an economic nonentity today.
* = When the Farberware plant closed a couple of years ago, it was the largest manufacturer in all of the Bronx despite having only a couple hundred employees. That's utterly pathetic for a place with over a million inhabitants.
Was the subway system affected in anyway by the flight of people to the burbs? Also if drug dealers and gangs were running some of the neighbourhoods in the erea how did this affect the system?
If it didn't cost $7.00 round trip just to access a bridge to get there, ($6.00 with Metro Card EZ Pass) I'd go to the Bronx more often.
take the subway
From Long Island? That's preposterous, and it would end up costing MORE!
If I were to go to the Bronx, I'd drive through Manhattan, the Whitestone is useful only for going to New England, with the rest, going through Manhattan is better.
In the second paragraph, I was talking about coming from Brooklyn, from LI, the Throgs Neck is always the best bet (excepting slow traffic situations).
Jeff, You are a cop, just flash your badge, don t they give you the toll free?
(Jeff, You are a cop, just flash your badge, don t they give you the toll free?)
Nope, they just park on the street free. Hence the civil service opposition to tolling the free East River Bridges, and the continued drain on city finances to rebuild them.
You could always take the Q44 bus from Queens to the bRonx.
Welcome back BX55. There was a recent thread about missing Subtalkers, and I'm sure you were missed. Nice to see you make a comeback.
The same goes for me BX55. And keep the info coming on the South Bronx. I'd like to see the Grand Concourse come back to what it was in the 1940's and early 50's.
Today I saw AEM7AC 916 pull Train 182 to New York. Of course I took several pictures on it.
Train 182 will arrive in New York at 11:25AM. If the dispatchment is normal, AEM7AC 916 will haul Train 85 departing New York at 4:20PM.
For those who want to take a picture on AEM7ACs, this is your chance.
Chaohwa
The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?
[The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX
Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?]
From an article by Al Frank in today's Star-Ledger:
"Additionally, a freight link over the Arthur Kill connecting Elizabeth and Howland Hook is to be finished."
Didn t they already have that from the old B and O days?
New Jersey had been trying to stop the reactivation of that line, on the ground that it might benefit New York City, while keeping it abandoned might convince businesses to locate in New Jersey.
Actually, it was (Union?) county trying to stop the line, because they don't see any 'local benefit'. The line is basically an 'air line' which bypasses just about everything on its way to the AK bridge. The Staten Island side of the line has been completed for 2-3 years already, but the NJ side hasn't seen a shovel turn. There are already customers on the line, waiting for service to begin.
-Hank
I neglected to mention:
What 'local benefit' they don't think they're getting? Currently, all freight of any type from NJ to SI goes via the Goethals Bridge, whcih parallels the AK bridge. 75% of the trucks to and from Howland Hook and VISY Paper (the 2 major shippers on the line) would then run on the railroad, thus reducing local pollution and traffic.
-Hank
Union County had a legitmate objection to waste being shipped through their county on the 'B&O' line after Fresh Kills closes. The county also wanted some sidings off of the line for their local industries but I don't know if that was a real issue for them.
Those industries are already adequately served by the industrial road (whose name I forget) and the Chemical Coast line. And at the time the line was supposed to be finished, garbage shipment wasn't an issue. At any right, The PA has the authority to step in and do the job, which is exactly what it will do, in light of the announced expansion of Howland Hook and th governor's agreement.
-Hank
[The following quote is from a NY Times article today on the Port Authority agreement:
"The agreement also calls for agency approval of the northbound connection of the Staten Island Railroad to CSX Transportation's Chemical Coast Line. "
This appears to a proposal for SIRR expansion. Can anyone confirm?]
The connection in question would run across the Arthur Kill lift bridge a short distance into Staten Island. It would be freight-only, serving the Howland Hook shipping terminal and some industrial users. Some parts of the line have been rebuilt on the Staten Island side in anticipation of the connection.
There are *no* plans to rebuild the north shore line all the way to St. George.
NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the SI side for it to connect to ????
Mr t__:^)
[NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the
SI side for it to connect to ???? ]
NT and 21st Century rail ill extend the HBLR to 2nd st. in Bayonne. No SIpassenger pail connection is planned and most likely won't be. If the MA won't even offer bus ervice to the HBLR over the bridge, why would they buld a railroad? Answer: They won't. Besides, the MTA would make no money extending the passenger line over that way and therefore is an illogical venture.
-Daniel
New York Area railroads
Check out the new SIR and NYCHRR pics!
NJT is not as adverse to interstate lines as the MTA is. Also, NJT would benefit more from the expansion since many S.I. residents near the extended line would see it as an easier way into Manhattan (especially upper Manhattan if they connect to PATH at Pavonia / Newport or Hoboken). It would be better than a 1/2 hour ferry ride which connects only to local trains (except the East Side IRT). It could be seen as an alternative to driving and express buses, since both face traffic over the bridge and through the tunnel. It would especially be most useful for those who work in Exchange Place, though. It could replace the express buses from NJ to SI.
With the announcement that Chase is moving several thousand workers to NJ by the Newport Mall area, expect to see a renewed push for service from SI to the HBLR.
[NJT is also has a plan to extend the HBLR south of 34th Street. As they get closer to SI something may need to be built on the
SI side for it to connect to ???? ]
NT and 21st Century rail ill extend the HBLR to 2nd st. in Bayonne. No SIpassenger pail connection is planned and most likely won't be. If the MA won't even offer bus ervice to the HBLR over the bridge, why would they buld a railroad? Answer: They won't. Besides, the MTA would make no money extending the passenger line over that way and therefore is an illogical venture.
-Daniel
New York Area railroads
Check out the new SIR and NYCHRR pics!
That would be on the Bayonne side of Staten Island. The Bayonne Bridge (Port Autorhity) was designed to carry rail (light or heavy, I'm not sure) over it. The Bayonne bridge is the lightest used bridge under the Port Authority as well.
It's the lightest used bridge in the area period. It is also the only one without a raised median (although the construction areas have a temporary median).
"Governors End Port Authority Rift That Blocked Billions in Projects
"By RONALD SMOTHERS - NY Times - June 2, 2000
"Gov. George E. Pataki and Gov. Christine Todd Whitman settled an 18-month standoff at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey yesterday, clearing the way for long-blocked projects worth billions to both states.
"... Mrs. Whitman, in turn, ended New Jersey's refusal to approve two projects dear to New York: selling or leasing the World Trade Center to private interests and leasing air rights over the Port Authority Bus Terminal.
"... As part of the deal, Mrs. Whitman also agreed to a study (Larry: don't you just love it?) that is likely to lead to an increase by the end of the year in the $1 fare on the PATH rapid transit line -- a step New York had long sought
".... Some items in the agreement that seemed aimed at addressing New York's concerns included the creation of a $250 million "development bank" for New York transportation projects over the next three years and the allocation of agency money for economic development efforts in South Jamaica, Queens, where a new terminal is planned to connect subway and commuter trains to a Kennedy Airport rail link. ..."
Full article :
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/060200ny-port.html
Does anybody think that the proposals to develop a deep-water port in Brooklyn, and/or build a rail tunnel under the harbor to service it, could actually be done? I find it hard to believe that the best use of the desirable waterfront area in Brooklyn is as a freight port area. But such a development could produce a lot of jobs, so maybe it makes economic sense. Any ideas out there?
Try talking the Navy to reopen the Navy Yard
The only way the rail-freight tunnel proposal will see any form or reality is when New York City -- but Brooklyn specifically -- regains manufacturing jobs.
Along those line, right now, there is a company in Sunset Park that is attempting to do just that. They are a textile firm called "Made in Brooklyn" and are putting out a line of clothes for the youth market that is supposed to compete with brands such as The Gap and Old Navy (produced in the foreign market).
"Made in Brooklyn" may be the first in what hopefully will become a series of new (or returning) industries to Brooklyn's waterfront areas. Certainly this is good news. However, the rail-freight tunnel would only be viable if there were a sizable increase in import/export businesses. And that may take decades to be realized -- if at all.
Doug aka BMTman
There is also an engineering issue that doesn't get much play in the press. A tunnel from the Bay Ridge freight line to NJ or SI would have to gradually descend under the Narrows, which means the portal would be nowhere near the waterfront area. And don't expect manufacturing to return to Brooklyn on a large scale anytime soon. Those jobs are now in Malaysia, China and Vietnam.
Somebody has mentioned 14th Ave. as the proposed location of the portal. It doesn't really matter. If you reduce the cost of shipping goods into and out of Long Island (including the parts that are in NYC), you make the area more competative. Waiting for customers to start their businesses before you put in a rail line to serve them is ass backwards. There is already plenty of traffic to justify building, and more would follow.
[The only way the rail-freight tunnel proposal will see any form or reality is when New York City -- but Brooklyn specifically -- regains manufacturing jobs.
"Made in Brooklyn" may be the first in what hopefully will become a series of new (or returning) industries to Brooklyn's waterfront areas. Certainly this is good news. However, the rail-freight tunnel would only be viable if there were a sizable increase in import/export businesses. And that may take decades to be realized -- if at all.]
Just having more industry in Brooklyn might not be enough to make the rail tunnel cost-effective. You'd need the sort of heavy industry that makes use of rail - places like auto assembly plants, paper mills, chemical plants, stuff like that. And it's rather difficult to imagine that ever happening, if for no other reason than physical lack of space - for example, an auto assembly plant requires about 75 acres, and that's just for the building. Moreover, the existing buildings with available space, such as Bush Terminal, are unsuitable to these users and would have to be demolished.
Brooklyn's best chance is to attract light manufacturing such as apparel and electronics manufacturers. Users like this don't have enormous space requirements and often can use existing industrial space. In fact, I believe there has been a semi-revivial of that sort of manufacturing in some parts of the borough. When I was on that SubTalk waterfront tour last August, I was surprised at the amount of business activity in what looked like a desolate area - and that was on a Saturday. But the bigger point is that users of this nature seldom ship by rail.
I agree that Brooklyn is not destined to have much heavy industry, or many carload freight shippers, any time soon.
One exception will be trash; hopefully also recycleables.
But 4 million people (or so) live on LI, and consume a whole lot of goods. Right now, a lot of these goods are made somewhere S or W of NYC, brought to northern NJ on rail (including those that came off a ship in Seattle or LA) and then the trucks are driven across the Hudson, NYC, and the east river. This pounds the city's infrastucture and contributes to the high cost of goods on Long Island. I would think a couple intermodal yards on the island, and a few printing plants and the like getting their paper via the tunnel, could do a measurable amount to take trucks out of NYC.
Should this be as high a priority as the 2nd Ave Subway? No way.
But it still seems like a long-term, significant benefit for the city.
[But 4 million people (or so) live on LI, and consume a whole lot of goods. Right now, a lot of these goods are made somewhere S or W of NYC, brought to northern NJ on rail (including those that came off a ship in Seattle or LA) and then the trucks are driven across the Hudson, NYC, and the east river. This pounds the city's infrastucture and contributes to the high cost of goods on Long Island. I would think a couple intermodal yards on the island, and a few printing plants and the like getting their paper via the tunnel, could do a measurable amount to take trucks out of NYC.]
The LIRR did make an attempt to start intermodal service some years ago, and it was a flop. See the recent thread about "Freight yard in East Farmingdale" for more details. I suspect the NY&A would be reluctant to give intermodal service another try.
As far as the economics are concerned, I doubt if there'd be any big advantages to a tunnel. Most industry and warehousing on Long Island is built in areas not served by rail. See, for example, the Hauppauge Industrial Park and the MacArthur industrial zone. Trucks will still be needed to serve these places even with a cross-harbor freight tunnel. Right now the trucks are loaded in New Jersey. With a tunnel, they'd be loaded somewhere in Brooklyn or maybe on Long Island. Would the cost savings (even including those resulting from less road wear) be enough to offset the tunnel's cost in any reasonable timeframe? I wouldn't hold my breath.
A number of labor unions have latched onto the lack of rail access as a reason manufacturing left New York City, and therefore hope that building a rail tunnel will bring back dues paying members. This ignores some inconvenient facts:
1) Manufacturing left all older central cities at the same or greater rates, including those (like Philadelphia and Chicago) that are criss-crossed by rail freight lines.
2) The New Jersey counties that HAVE the region's port and rail lost about the same share of their peak manufacturing employment as NYC.
3) Lots of independent research says that while some labor intensive manufacturing employment moved to poor countries, and some capital-intensive manufacturing employment got automated out of existence, the big factor for the location of manufacturing within the U.S. is the flight from unions.
There are three perspectives on this 1) Right wing -- manufacturing has run away from unions and that's good 2) Left wing -- manufacturing has run away from unions and that's bad 3) Academic -- manufacturing has run away from unions. Not liking this consensus, and unable or unwilling to organize workers in the Sunbelt, unions have latched onto the rail tunnel.
Hold on - there is not more manufacturing in Chicago than there is in NYC, as a % of jobs? I am skeptical. Even Philly probably has more manufacturing jobs than NYC.
Anyways, my point was bringing in goods to an area with a lot of consumers, not stimulating manufacturing. If you do that, great, but I agree that is a pretty flimsy arguement.
Peter points out that efforts have been made to bring intermodal onto the island as it is, that have not been very sucessful. Well, it takes a day for a freight - one that is in a big hurry, that is, to make it from Oak Island or wherever up to Albany (very congested line), across the bridge, down the NYC line, through the bronx, and across the Hell Gate. There are plenty of time restrictions on the passenger lines, too. This one to two day penalty is obviously going to kill intermodal onto the island from most points. For those things coming east on the CSX ex NYC line, which go through Albany anyways, I'm sure they'd get onto the island a lot faster going south to Newark and under the bay then down the east side of the river to the hell gate and across. Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam.
(Hold on - there is not more manufacturing in Chicago than there is in NYC, as a % of jobs? I am skeptical. Even Philly probably has more manufacturing jobs than NYC.)
My point is that the PERCENT DECLINE in manufacturing production jobs (census of manufacturing) is no greater in NYC than in other older cities. Those cities always were more industrial than NYC, and remain so today, but the percent decline is similar -- even though they had the rail connections and NYC did not.
(Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam).
The only way I see it working is if, in addition to TOFC, you could have trucks driving on, and riding on rails through the city as drivers took their breaks a la the Chunnel. I understand that TOFC is feasible on the Bay Ridge line and the Hell Gate Bridge with significant investment, but double stack is not -- not without raising every bridge over a rail line in the city.
[Peter points out that efforts have been made to bring intermodal onto the island as it is, that have not been very sucessful. Well, it takes a day for a freight - one that is in a big hurry, that is, to make it
from Oak Island or wherever up to Albany (very congested line), across the bridge, down the NYC line, through the bronx, and across the Hell Gate. There are plenty of time restrictions on the passenger lines, too. This one to two day penalty is obviously going to kill intermodal onto the island from most points. For those things coming east on the CSX ex NYC line, which go through Albany anyways, I'm sure they'd get onto the island a lot faster going south to Newark and under the bay
then down the east side of the river to the hell gate and across. Building the tunnel would make intermodal right onto the island a lot more competitive. It might even take shipments likely to go a long distance all on highways and make them intermodal, making a potentially good investment for uncle sam.]
Possibly, but from what I've heard, the extra time required for the Selkirk (Albany) routing is not much of an issue for shippers. Rail shipments don't always take the most direct routes no matter where in the country you're talking about. Whether the time savings that a tunnel would produce would be enough to convince some businesses to switch to rail is an open issue. I suspect that any gains would be minimal.
At any rate, the main issue is the lack of sidings on the Long Island end. The great majority of industries and warehouses in Nassau and Suffolk that might use rail are located away from rail lines, and don't seem to mind it.
But my whole arguement is about intermodal! A troublesome thing might be finding the land to build an intermodal terminal. But the lack of sidings is _not_ a big deal.
Intermodal RR traffic IS quite time sensitive. RRs go to great lengths to speed up these trains and get them there on time.
Getting a truck through NYC is a bottleneck - not as bad as taking a train to Albany & back, but still a bottleneck. This might help make intermodal through the tunnel competitive.
And what happens to the truck traffic when the City does to diesel powered trucks what it did to steam locos? Won't happen? Politicians do strange things, like banning cigarette smoking in the work place. Diesel trucks in NYC will be next after they get rid of the diesel buses.
With any luck, we'll all be going to Hybrids or Fuel Cells anyway. The big diesel pollution is when the big vehicles strain to move froma stop, or when the idle in one place. A hybrid vehicle with a relatively clean diesel engine charging a battery is an improvment we may see soon.
Getting back to the tunnel, the only way this works is if
1) The feds pay for it (and not by deducting money that could have been used for something else).
2) The tunnel is used not only by trains but also by trucks carried by trains a-la the Chunnel. Ie. a truck traveling from North Carolina to Long Island, rather than drive through NYC and pay the toll, drives onto a train. The driver heads up to the "truckstop" car while his rig is pulled through the city, and then drives off.
The one scenario I see is a new three-track tunnel in one tube from New Jersey to Penn Station, with the middle track (the greatest track height) for freight, and extended to the Sunnyside Yard.
i was just browsing through my circa 1994 SEPTA regional rail timetables and i just realized that TVM's on the rail lines were more more prevailent than they are today. today you can find TvM's at 4 stations, Market East, Suburban, 30th St. and Trenton. In 1994 the Media R3 line and R5 Paoli line had TVM's at almost every station. There was a TVM at west trenton and Lansdale and many many others. why did SEPTA get rid of the TVM's and force ppl to buy tickets from often closed station offices or train conductors.
The TVM's were all over the Regional Rail system at one time but they were found to be tempermental, especially when located outdoors (as is the case at many outlying RR stations) and have gradually been removed. There was always the problem of the TVM not working and the crew ready to assess the surcharge when you boarded and told the conductor this news (the crew almost always would not believe you). I had this problem once at University City station, another TVM location. I believe there are still TVM's at the Airport stations also.
The TVM's at Suburban are rarely used. Most riders are confused by them. I had trouble with these once also, finding myself in a situation where I had to buy a ticket quickly and resorting to a TVM. I got a ticket but it had no validation stamp (and I didn't really look to see if there was one). Of course, a conductor quickly found this and a short discussion followed, but she did believe me, surprisingly.
I noticed that in the Sub portion of many subways the ties are embedded directly in the concrete that makes up the base of the tunnel. I was wondering how or if these ties are ever replaced. I also noticed that the track in the PATCO subway still is jointed rail and does anyone know when it dates from. I also think that they just replaced that rails on the MFL with clipped CWR instead of spiked jointed.
There are two layers of concrete: the track concrete and the "invert", or structural floor of the tunnel. The two are seperated by a layer of waterproofing or other bond-breaker, and to replace the ties the track concrete has to be demolished. In NYC you might notice areas where the track has been "skeletonized" in the tunnel; i.e. the concrete has been removed and new ties are in place and awaiting new concrete.
Some that ride the 3 around New Lots may notice this now above the station mezzanines.
If the waterproofing material between the two concrete layers were also resilient, then the noise level would be considerably reduced.
The waterproofing material doesn't help much, since it has about a foot of track concrete on top of it.
[The waterproofing material doesn't help much, since it has about a foot of track concrete on top of it.]
If you could find room for a suspension with the right resonance frequency you could cut down on rumble. The trick I think would be to do it without allowing large amplitude movements, otherwise the tracks would sway, not a good thing . . .
Hey, has anyone toyed with active noise cancellation? The technology is out there, albeit you'd need damn loud speakers and even with a lot of them it wouldn't be effective above the midrange (wavelength too small).
The two primary factors that create low-freq subway noise are both
antiques: heavy outboard-bearing truck designs from the 1920s
and jointed rail. Both will be disappearing over time.
The new cars will have modern trucks and continuous welded rail
is being slowly worked into the system.
Screaching and squealing around curves will diminish significantly
if the TA starts using the friction modifier gels on the wheel
treads as stated in that NYT article.
They installed a lot of welded rail some years back, but they seem to have slowed down tremendously . . .
Well, the trains certainly have.:-)
Why don't they switch to radial trucks now popular on many frieght locomotives.
The concrete embedding is sturdier and provides for the water drain in the middle o the track. Also, the MTA, during the course of track reconstruction is switching from the traditional railroad spike andclamp to the more modern "ram clip". This is the curly piece of metal that is welded to th rails. They are supposed to be sturdier and quieter.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
The spring clip is NOT welded to the rail.
-Hank
Much quieter than the spiked rails, but the "bolted" clips seem to be just as quiet.
Is the curly clip also known as a "Pandrol clip" . If so, they have been around for a long time.
Chuck Greene
Yes, they are commonly known as Pandrol clips. They are quieter in that the plates are made of a hard rubber instead of steel, and thus absorb the vibration in the rails, and are sturdier in that the plates are secured by lag bolts instead of spikes, and the clips replace the spikes that secure the rail. Aging of the ties doesn't cause as much loosening as it does with spikes.
The plates, whether they are they use the clips or the small bolted plate that holds the rail in place, are commonly known as "resilient plates."
Thank you for your explanation. I knew I had seen the Pandrol clips
before. I never knew about the "resilient plates".
Thanks, again.
Chuck Greene
Certain freight and transit lines also use the "Double-J" clip which is essentially a piece of metal curled like a J at both end. It is then put though some other kind of brace and is locked in place. These are used mainly with concrete and metal ties.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
That sounds like a rail anchor - the thing that clips onto the underside of a rail, and is put right next to the tie. That keeps the rail from moving longitudinally by anchoring it to the position of the tie - essential for welded rail. But it does not take the place of a spike or a pandrol clip.
Which part of the MFL are you talking about? I always thought the Frakford el was welded, but it may be this "clip jointed" you are referring to. The part between the Frankford el and the tunnel portal, which includes Spring Garden station uses spikes, and the train makes a click-CLACK sound while going over it.
The only places I can think of in the PATCO subway that still have jointed rail are those near the x-overs. I think the rest is welded rail. The rail was all replaced in 1968-69 when the Bridge Line closed, just before PATCO operation in Phila begain.
Ties encased in concrete have to be chipped out with new concrete placed when finished.
The clip used instead of spikes is called a Pandrol clip and works by spring/friction action. Much of the El has had rail replaced with welded rail and Pandrol clips. However, I recall major track replacement projects on the Market St El in the late 1970's which used wooden ties, jointed rail and spikes.
Now the loudest noise from tracks seems to come from the joint were the track sections are insulated from each other for signal purposes. It seems the two sections flex so much as to differ by as much as 1/2 inch , resulting in a pounding sound.One such can be heard at the 7 Ave station of the E upper level, listen to the N and R train above, it traumitizes the whole station. Now lets find a way to minimize the movement of insulated joints. The avid wedge woud help a little.
avid
I asked before, but didn't get an answer before i left.
The 4th ave. station on the F line is the terminus of G. Going northbound, the express tracks feed into one very short spur (i'm not sure if it is 10-car length). What was the purpose of this spur, if any?
It's already been mentioned, extra train storage.
But when the line was built originally, there were trains on the express tracks, not now with the tracks being unused
So? That would be more reason for the 5th track, all the others are used for service.
And as for those express tracks, they were NOT used for service in 1933, they were opened in 1968, closed in 1976.
That's wierd that they opened so late, I assume they were built in '33?
They were opened in '33, but it wasn't until '36 or so that the GG was there to provide service. Maybe they were used in the beginning, but not for a long enough period of time.
There have been several references to, and questions about, this division. The electrification was through to Grand Central Terminal, where the third rail trains could switch off the Hudson Division onto the parallel Putnam line. There was a tower just north of the Van Cortlandt Lake Bridge where the electric trains diverged and the steam main line was reduced to one track for its journey northward. The tower was on the east side of the tracks and may have been "VC".
The electric division never had high ridership, even during World War II. Given that fact, the railroad was wise to close it for cannibalization. While it only used a few of them, the MU cars were really needed by the other two divisions. All the hardware, such as rails, ties (every tie was retrieved as the railroad was picked up), signal-related items and third rail feeders, hardware, contact rail, etc. were needed for the other divisions since specialized materials like those were very hard to obtain during the war.
The primary reason why the line was abandoned, however, was the competition from the Third Avenue Railway's Yonkers division trolley cars. All the cars were attractive lightweight cars and none of the electric division's stations, including Park Hill, were far from an active trolley line. The electric division's terminus was at Getty Square, where the #1, 2 and 3 lines went directly down Broadway to the West Side I.R.T. These cars made good time, particularly on Broadway alongside Van Cortlandt Park, where, unless trapped behind a slower convertible running on the Bronx "C", the cars ran "on the post" (great rides!). Keep in mind that the #3 was as busy as the other two lines even though it was only a long tripper service from Getty Square to the subway. That will five you some idea of the passenger volume along Broadway to the subway. At least two or three Yonkers cars were always in sight from the Parade Grounds at "Vannie", and that was on the weekends! During weekdays Broadway was just filled with trolley cars. The #4 car from Getty Square took you to the east side I.R.T.
Yonkers was a mill town - Alexander Carpet, Flo-Sweet Sugar and Otis Elevator, so wages were not high. The ability to get to downtown Manhattan for only 10 cents was not to be dismissed! Also, trolley riders got on the end of the subway lines so had a high chance of getting seats. This was in an era when many stations had “pushers”, platform men who literally pushed people into the cars in order to close the door behind them.
The sad fact is that the Putnam electric division never should have been built, let alone be electrified. I still remember its short, lonely trains of Sprague MU's, but even as a youngster, its abandonment "to help the cause of the war" made sense to me. The only known movies of the line in operation belonged to Herman Rinke. He never copied the movie and sent it via Railway Express to a railfan group in the Pacific Northwest so that they could view it. Much to Herman’s regret, the movie never made it there and Railway Express was not able to account for it. So, not only was the line short-lived, but so were its memories.
Nice piece Ray.
Just like the NYW&B, and the rest of the Westchester portion of the the Putnam Div, the ridership never materialized, especialy with growth of automobile traffic after WWI. Westchester County truly became one of America's first automobile suburban areas. The longer distance to White Plains was a mainstay of the NYC and the the New Haven had its shoreline communities up into Connecticut.
The NY & Northern got caught up in the political and money messes in the late 19c, where it was envisioned as becoming a transit link to Manhattan. However, by the turn of the century, RR technology was producing heavier equipment that could not be used on the elevated lines.
The NYW&B was the final (and too late) entry into the fray between the NY Central and New Haven, where each had an early interest in the 2nd & 3rd Ave Els. The financial people of the NYC were the 3rd Ave people. The New Haven financial interests were looking to utilize the 2nd Ave el as thier entry into Manhattan to Avoid the NYC Terminal.
However, as stated before, the technology soon outdistanced those plans, unless the New Haven was goin to rebuild the 2nd Ave line for the NYW&B. For whatever reaso, the money was spent on the ultra high capacity NYW&B ROW.
Thanks, Ray, for a good summary. I recall riding it Getty Square to Kingsbridge with mother, grandmother, and sister. I believe there was an access via an office building elevator at Getty Square. For some folk in Yonkers, the streetcar-and-subway ride to Times Square totaled 15 cents: two Yonkers Railway zones, plus 5 cents on the subway. The overlap, I believe was from the City Line to McLean Avenue. Northbound, as I recall, the motorman would halt at McLean Avenue to collect a ticket (proof that you boarded at 262nd St or north?) or ask you to walk forward to add a nickle to the register. I question whether Getty Square trains usually went to GCT or Sedgewick Avenue. Again, thanks.
Speaking of zones, how are they enforced on NJT busses? I guess I should ask on BusTalk.
The topic has drifted from Putnam Electric Division (to Getty Square) to the zones on the parallel Yonkers Railroad Lines 1,2,and 3. Then came a question on enforcement of zones on NJT. From my observation over the years, it is done by requiring the passenger to return the original ticket to the driver on the way out. The Putnam Electric Division used standard railway practice at the time: fares by distance, with either tickets collected by conductors or conductor's receipts issued for on-board purchases.
The R-142s are going to replace the Redbirds on the 2 and lines. But, what about the 7 train? Some of it's cars lack air conditioning, forcing the TA to remove them from service in the summer.
Will the R-36/33 WF cars on the # 7 line ever be replaced? R-142s are presently arranged in 5 car sets, and unless a mass re-arrangement is planned, there will be no 11-car 7 trains. So is there a plan for some future order of cars to replace the 7's Redbirds?
10 car R62 trains will run on the 7. Eventually, the 2, 3, 5, and 6 will be 100% R142, all other IRT lines will be R62.
Why would they do that? Why replace the r-62a's on the 3 and put old cars on the 7? I can understand the 2,5 and 6 getting R-142's, because they have either all redbirds, or a large amount, but why the 3? And, 3 trains can only have nine cars, not 10.
They will have 10 car trains when the R142s arrive. The 3 can run 10 car trains, it just doesn't.
I thought that because of 145th st. (first 4 cars only) 3 trains were forced to run with nine car trains. most r62/62a's have been arranged into semi permanent 5 car sets, except the ones serving the 3 line.
Let's get this straight:
145th Street can support 5 cars, it only opens 4 because of where the conductor is on a 9 car train. The reason it runs them is because some tracks in the Lenox Terminal yard are only long enough to fit 9 car trains. When the number of cars increases, they'll make 10 car trains, but some will still be 9 cars.
And the 3 should be compatible with the 2, which it runs alongside. The 7 is independent and can do anything.
Finally, the R-62s are reliable and have proven themselves and they don't want to rock the boat on the heaviest single line (the Lex is 3 lines). The R-62 can run 11 car trains (and will, don't listen to WMATAGMAGOH) because there are enough singles. As for the logic of running 10 car trains when the R-62s arrive, if they were going to run 10 car trains, they would do so already and scrap the awful singles.
The R-142 is configurable into 4, 5 or 6 car sets to allow the proper consists.
After I wrote this, I thought of something else: I doubt the 3 will have R-142s either. The 3 car trains on the shuttle MUST be R-62 and the shuttle is serviced by Livonia. Livonia will always need some singles (or 4 car sets) for the 9 car trains and therefore it makes sense for that yard to run the shuttle, although anything can change. They could decide, after all, to use R-142s on the 7.
It's also being delivered with sets for 6-, 9-, and 11- car operation (2 sets of each, according to the Bombardier web site) The cars are assembled into sets like this:
A-B-B-B-A, where the A cars have cabs, and the B cars don't. For 6 cars, there is an additional A car, like so:
A-B-BNo clue why 6-cars needs the mid-train cab (< indicates cab direction).
-Hank
Any idea what these will be used for?
Never knew that the R-142 could be re-confugured. Interesting. Can other cars do things like that?
All of the R62/62A/68/68A can, since they were delivered as single cars. The married pair cars (R28/29/32/33/36/38/40/42) must run in odd-even pairs. The R44/46 are a special case, since they were built as single cars, but as A and B cars, so a B car must always be used with at least one A car.
-Hank
With the R44/46, 2 "A" cars must be put at either end of a group of "B" or blind cars. These are the ones without motorman's cabs. I remember 3 car R46 trains on the JFK Express, with one B car attached between 2 A cars.
.....My question is to how the new 142s with thier closed off transverse cabs & with this feature not just only blocks off
the railfan window & brings in the dangerous OPTO operation but also cuts down on passenger space as well right ??
So when the REDBIRDS are scrapped & are no more,... less passengers are carried with the new 142s right ????..!!
New cars less passengers carried less space inside each car more crampted & more miserable total disaster right ??
I am asking this question to all of the threads starting with the FIRST one ( thank you ) ......
Oh, let it be.. Oh, let it be.
Redbirds4Ever
Yes, but they don't NEED to operate that way, at least not in service. I was pointing out the difference between married pairs and linked cars. There are a few A-B sets of R46 on the G, as well as A-A sets.
-Hank
True, but to be a functioning train, you need 2 A cars at each end of any group of blind B cars. Withoug controls, no B car can be used to head any group of cars.
Oh no! Not this discussion again! But seriously, this is what I heard from a car inspector in Corona Yard relayed from the barn chief. Mind you, the TA can and does change its mind day to day (check out bus rosters!), lots having to do with political and rider pressure on them. The line will eventually have 11 car R62A's. The clearance problems have been cleared up in the Steinway tubes. The single car will be in the middle, with 5 car sets on each side of it. Initially, the 5 car sets will come from the #6 line as they become excess there. When? Don't hold your breath. The R142's still have a lot of testing to be done before they are out on the road en-mass. Who knows? Maybe the #7 will some time down the road have a mixture of R62A's and R142's (I know, not in the same train!).
The Singles would have to come from the No.3 Line.
06/03/2000
If the R-62A's go over to the #7, will they just be sent over and start up service, or will they be given a good cleaning, scratch free windows (with sacrificial plastic), repaint end bonnets?
That would be a good start, otherwise the #7 riders may fume about "hand me down equipment" from other lines.
Bill "Newkirk"
That is my point about political pressure. If the politicians and civic groups complain loud enough, the #7 just may get all or some R142's eventually. Then again, if the cars are troublesome, because of all the sophistication (doors reopening automatically when obstructed. READ: doors stay open a long time because passengers refuse to let them close, for example), then they just may be happy with the old yet proven technology of the R62A.
I notice that at the very start of Monday Night's "The King of Queens" they show the sign Queens painted on some kind of thoroughfare, and I don't know if it's an El, highway, or rr station. And where is that sign located? I've always wondered what section of Queens was shown in the residential sequences that follow. I enjoy the show but I wish Doug looked in better shape. People who hail from Queens don't look like that, do they?
The redbirds are being replaced, but some of them are younger than some of the IND/BMT's heaviest worked cars, the R-32's. How can they allow the R-32's to carry the bulk of the C and E lines, and also have service on other lines as well (N, very rarely Q, R, G, and sometimes A) when they are getting old. My dad works for the TA, and took me to 207 st. yard. The R-32's that we see aren't all of them. I saw a whole train of them that were in quite a need of repair.
If the R-143 (if it goes by that name) cars are indeed built, i've heard they will go onto the L line, a line serviced by the R-40/40m/42's. What about these other lines that are used more, what cars will they get?
The R-143 will replace nothing, it will be a 212 car addition to the fleet. The R-40{Slant | M}/R-42 will be moved over toward other lines. The R-32 was built better than the rest of the 60' cars (BUDD built cars to last), and is expected to outlive them. As it is, the slants are mostly relegated to the Q since the older cars must rest on the weekends.
The R-32 will retire after 2010.
The rest of the 60' ers will retire after 2007, when an order of 660 cars starts arriving (number yet to be determined, the TA might buy some equipment like crane cars, engines, or digital signs and bump the order to the R-200).
BTW: It is my opinion that the R-143 (60' cars) are replacing the R-27/30, which were retired back in 93' , and were replaced with nothing.
Aren't R-142's going to be 67' cars? The R-110b prototype was of 67' lenght, and i believe that R-143's will follow that pattern.
As for R-32's being superior, you're right. Those were R-38's in the 207st yard. And, they seem to fare better than any other remainig 60' car, barring the R-42's. But, old is old. It won't be too long before some of these cars start breaking down regularly. I wouldn't be all too suprised if it was the R-38's first.
There won't be enough money to replace them all soon, and it is a bad idea to replace them all at once. (As it is I think they're making a huge mistake replacing all the redbirds with 142s, they're de-diversifying the fleet as well as setting themselves up for a major crisis in 40 years when they will have to buy 1300 new cars at the same time.) Then, when the replacements get old, there will have to be a gigantic order of over a thousand cars. By the way, it's semi-official that the 143 will be 60', not 67', probably because all the markers are set up for 60' use (only reason I can think of). Also, every single B division station would have to have completely different markers and conductor boards set up, not just the 'L'.
The R143s are going to be 60'. That's what I thought of about the R142s and so many cars at the same time. I think it was a bad idea.
I'm a bit dissapointed that the MTA decided to go with a 60 foot train instead of a 67 foot train for the R143's.
I thought the whole idea of the 67-foot cars was to create a standard car length for the future. Instead of ordering 75-foot cars for most of the B-divsion, and 60-foot cars for the M, J, Z and L lines, the MTA could come up with a car that would be able to be used on ALL B-division lines.
I wonder what the future holds for 75-foot cars: Does this mean that 20 years down the road, the MTA will purchase new 75-foot cars to replace the R-44's and R-46's? Or will they go back to using 60-foot cars exclusively?
The MTA is probably going to revert back to exclusively using 60-foot cars. But at least they'll have rounded sides like the R44/46 and R68/68A cars (I think).
As a train service employee, I like the idea of 60 foot cars. Safer. Doors in between cars can be left unlocked in case a passenger has to move to the next car and/or in case of emergency. This includes crimes in progress, air conditioning failure, skell stinking up the car, or in case of a stalled train ahead and passengers have to exit thru the first car. Sometimes those automatic unlock switches on those 75' cars don't work, and even if they do, the crew has to personally make sure all those end doors are locked by inspection before the train can resume after the incident.
There's a bunch of different ways to look at this.
Yes, it seems like a bad idea to order so many at once. But on the other hand, you can plan towards their retirement, because you'll KNOW when they need to be replaced.
Subway cars are custom equipment, so the more you order, the cheaper they are per car.
Manufacturers don't like to build only a few of something.
-Hank
Aren't there some off-the-shelf subway cars out there? I think Alsthom and Adtranz make them.
Put it this way: I doubt if New York will ever buy off-the-shelf subway equipment.
No such thing. Systems worldwide are much to varied is gauge, tunnel dimensions, and operational requirements. LRVs can be done off-the-shelf, since they DO fit the same general specifications.
-Hank
Interestingly, excepting Boston/SF (USLRV) and San Diego/Edmonton/Calgary, every LRV system has gotten cars designed specifically for them. The lessons of the PCC car have been totally forgotten, and it's the 1920s' again. Every system has "special needs" and only a specially designed car will do.
Even Boston and SF abandoned the standard design car for cars designed just for each.
Standardization might be nice, but we're getting rid of the USLRVs here in SF because they were junk to start with, and they're falling apart now.
Yes, the new bredas have all the problems of custom cars- super expensive, awarded in a no-bid contract that benefits friends of the mayor, etc.
So while it would be nice to see an off-the-shelf car, I don't think anyone who has to ride them on a regular basis is mourning the demise of the USLRV; at least the Bredas don't break down as much, have more doors, and carry more passengers.
A standard LRV (Off the shelf, little modification to suit) could the German one (SD, Calgery, Pitt).
Pittsburgh's LRV's, while being a Siemens car, are not U2's (Calgary, Edmonton and San Diego all got U2's, as they were all built on the cheap (read inexpensive and fast). PAT has had loads of trouble, with the trucks, motors, gearbox being the biggest trouble spots. Monomotored trucks and Pittsburg's grades don't mix well, and PAT has gone round and round with Siemens on the issues. The cars are pushing 20, and PAT is debating fix (rebuild) or replace. Additional cars will be be needed in a few years, and PAT just may go with a custom design for Pgh.
Denver's LRVs are Siemens-built products. Model SD100, to be exact. The fleet now totals 31 units. The new Southwest Corridor is still slated to open next month; however, I don't believe they've resumed test runs. Repairs on the Big Dry Creek bridge appear to be completed.
The R-142 are A division cars and have essentially A division dimensions - 50' nominal length. The R-143 at its inception was planned to be 67' long but this idea was scrapped early on. The R-143 will be 60' long. The prototype was photographed recently in Kobe at the KHI plant.
Do you have any photos or links to any? I'd love to see them.
I'll be sending the ones I have to Dave for posting as soon as I can download them from the memory card.
The R-142 are A division cars and have essentially A division dimensions - 50' nominal length. The R-143 at its inception was planned to be 67' long but this idea was scrapped early on. The R-143 will be 60' long. The prototype was photographed recently in Kobe at the KHI plant.
As for the R-32s, they will be around for a minimum of a dozen more years (all but the R-32 GEs). The R-38 fleet is actually in the worst shape due to very badly leaking roofs. They will be the next B division cars to go.
what would it cost to build a new stainless roof for the r-38's?...
It can be done, but is not worth it for a car near the end of it's life. The car would need an equipment overhaul also, and at this point one might as well save money (yes, save) by building a whole new car. The added maintenance of an old car for the next few years will be higher than a new one, so the new car will be cheaper.
Plus, it will still have carbon steel frames, which will still cause problems.
The R38's are in the process of getting new roofs. Look for them. Quite a few are done.
Not according to the B division project status report from last week. There was no mention of new roofs for the R-38 nor was anything mentioned when I spoke to the 207th Street Barn Chief on Thursday.
OK, I'll have to recheck my sources. I inquired because some R38's I've seen lately have awfully good looking roofs, extremely silver for the entire length of the car, not those vertical "black bands" which I think were put on the plug the leaks. I was told they are being replaced at CI Main Shop. Of course, I don't get down ther anymore to see for myself.
So, perhaps those bands were painted over.
But painting a light color (silver) over a darker color (black), you surely would see some kind of a shadow of some sort. As I said I was told they are being replaced at CIYD Main Shop. And if you look at many R38 roofs now, they sure do look brand new to me! I invite NYC SubTalkers to check them out. If they aren't new, that is a damn good paint job!
Maybe they use lighter strips (or whatever they are). Or maybe it's a thick paint. Or it's two coats.
06/03/2000
Maybe they're using some kind of waterproof type paint, something you would associate with marine use.
Bill "Newkirk"
I honestly don't know what new roofs will cost. However, a consultant engineer was hired to evaluate the feasibility of maintaining the current B fleet. It was thumbs up for the 32s and some 42s. Thumbs down for the 38s and some 42s. The 40s future is unclear. R-44s and (346) R-46s also face uncertain futures. One thing is certain. This will not happen over night or even in the next 5 years.
Considering that the R44/46's were built entirely of stainless steel, they'll be around for as long as they can be maintained mechanically (which might doom the R44 much faster than the R46).
I'll be riding on an R46 in 2020, count on it ...
Actually, the R-44's and R-46's are NOT entirely made out of stainless steel; they have steel roofs like the R-38's, R-40's, and R-42's, and have been subject to rust problems. The R-68's and R-62's have all-stainless steel (except for the fiberglass ends) on their bodies. Additionally, The R-44's uses steel in the "beltrail" area that used to be painted blue; you can see rust and bubbles form under the metallic silver paint applied during their GOH.
The R-44, despite being one of the most aesthetically pleasing subway cars for passengers, has proven to be one of the biggest lemons in NYCTA history. (The "anti-R32") When it came time to GOH much of the fleet, there was even some talk at the time of scrapping them completely.
I have no doubt that the R-32's will outlast all the cars of the 60's and 70's. They were simply built better than their contemporaries. But another factor has been overlooked by many posters on this subject: Fleets that comprise large numbers of cars last longer. The reason? Standardization and the ability to cannibalize retired rolling stock for parts. The BMT Standards probably outlasted the Triplexes because there were more of them. Similarly, the IND R-1-9 series limped along into the late 70's because cars being retired could be stripped for parts to keep the remaining cars on life support. So it stands to reason that the R-32's (originally a 600 car fleet) will outlast the R-38's (a mere 200 cars). Many of the R-40 and R-42 car parts are also interchangeable with one another. I have no doubt that as these cars are retired, we will see strange trains made up of a hodgepodge of R-40 slants, R-40m's, and R-42's. They will probably become the R-30's of their era; off-hour and emergency backup trains.
R-44's? It's not entirely crazy to suggest theat they will meet their demise prematurely. Don't forget, they are also used for the SIRT, and are incompatible with R-46's. (In one of my more whimsical daydreams, I imagined them being overhauled and turned into trailer cars for R-68's)
The BMT standards were phased out over a period of 8-9 years. 394 of them were rebuilt in 1959-60 and soldiered on until August of 1969. Tha story goes that these cars were in better shape than the R-1/9s and consideration was given to keeping them and scrapping the IND veterans. The unrebuilt ones were replaced by the R-27/30s. The Triplexes were retired way too soon; they were still in tip-top shape at the time of their withdrawal.
The R-1/9s suffered from neglect during their final years and became a sort of unwanted stepchild. The prevailing attitude was "we've got new cars on the way, so we won't bother with the old ones."
That's a very brash statement since none of us are guaranteed the next 20 years. While the R-46s were 'my' cars for over a decade, I don't share your optimism of where they will be in 2020. The fact is that they were overhauled in 1991 and will be due again in 2003. That will extend their life to 2015 at best. Anything beyond that is unknown at this point. Considering that they are an operational headache - some consultants have recommended limiting dependence on the odd-ball car fleets.
I was under the impression that the R46 is one of the best performing cars in the fleet today. Why are they an operational headache? The only downside hey have, at least as far as I could determine is that they can never be used on the BMT Eastern division. Why do you call them "oddball" cars?
operational headache =
not compatible with other fleets.
Limited use around the system.
lack of flexibility in configuration.
Well compatibality shouldn't be a problem, as most car types aren't mixed anyway. As for limited use around the system, I'd say all 75' cars have this problem, yet the r68 aren't going to be scrapped soon.n And for the configuration problems, most of the newer cars (including the brand new R142) today are being linked into 4/5 car sets. So as long as you don't mix them with other types and you keep them off the BMT Eastern Division (where they're not needed), I can't see any of these reasons being considered to justify early scrapping of these cars.
Of course you are correct and would be so in a sane environment. While the issue of compatibility is raised, the TA goes out and buys 2 essentially identical car classes (R-142 & R-142A) that are not compatible. Ditto the issue of flexibility. As I said, those issues were raised by a consultant while deciding which fleets would be maintained and which wouldn't.
Are you serious? The 142 and 142A can't MU?
Jeff H.
I've seen the R-68 and the R-68As MU. They should set up the R-142 and the 142-A to MU
Jeff H.
I've seen the R-68 and the R-68As MU. They should set up the R-142 and the 142-A to MU
BMTJeff
The 2 R142 models can't run together? What moron at the MTA is responsible for this, and when will he/she lose his/her job??
Don't feel bad, the two R62 models can't MU either.
wayne
Yes they can! Any two SMEE cars can MU with each other,
excepting the R44 and 46 classes which have different couplers.
By MU, I mean that the basic train functionality will be there:
stop and go, buzzer and maybe door control. There are a host
of reasons why one wouldn't mix certain car classes in service,
some of them technical, some of them administrative.
The R-44 and R-46 have compatible mechanical couplers. It's the wiring of the electric portions that keeps them from MU-ing.
And has the person responsible for THAT been fired as of 6/5/2000?
I heard it was for the TA to see whether the Kowasaki cars or the Bombardier cars are more dependable than the other one. Plus, both companies know that the TA needs lots of cars in the future, so both companies don't want car models mixed either. I know there is sealed bidding, but the company with the more dependable (R142 vs. R142A) car would somehow get the upper hand to build future car orders.
Aparently I have posted something based on information that I misunderstood. I just phoned a very reliable source of information regarding the R-142s. This is what he told me:
"The R-142 and R-142A will MU together with 100% functionality!"
He also went on to tell me that at the present time, it is doubtful that they will be permitted to do so in revenue service.
The error on my part was one of interpretation of what I had been told. I'm sorry for the confusion,
It's OK. Based on their track record, it's perfectly normal to assume the MTA will do the bone-headed thing over the sensible thing.
I heard otherwise when the cars were ordered, so I trust issues of compatibility were addressed and those problems were solved.
Wayne, R-62 can MU with 100% functionality with any NYCT car except:
R-29(or is it the R-28, I forget)
R-44
R-46
R-110A & R-110B
R-142 & R-142A.
They are not run together for the same issues that are ignored on the R-32s but followed with the R-68 and R-68A.
The 207 Street IRT overhauls and the M&K redbirds have differences in the electric portions, one having a three row pin setup and the other four rows. Why wouldn't the R62 not be able to MU with the R28/29s? I have made main shop tranfers with them with no consist problems, before and after the R62 were linked. Does 100% fuctionality include the lack of IC pins or some other misc devices that you are talking about?
It's either the 28s or 29 that have the 3-row electric portions.
I remember working 239 Street and all of their M&K cars had four rows and the 207 had three. R28s and R29s all had four rows, at least back in '97. Next time up that way, I'll look again but for now I am playing with EPO13. Just why aren't the R62s capable of MU'ing with the R28/29s?
Since one has the 3 row BL-39 electric portion and one has the 4 row BL-52, it seems pretty obvious that some circuits won't go trainline.
Okay, here is the answer from the manual.
R-28 and R-29 have either BL-25 or BL-26B electric portions. These are the 3 row type. They were not changed during overhaul. Everything else using the H2C coupler uses a BL-33 or BL-37 which are 4-row electric portions. Hence the R-28/R-29 will MU with each other but not with the rest of the fleet. One exception may be the WF R-33/R-36 which according to the manual has BL-26 Electric Portions.
Hmmm, I thought a number of cars were upgraded to 4 row portions
after GOH, during the famous "oops, maybe we should have separated
the PA control from the H trainline" episodes in 1991-1992.
I _thought_ the only remaining 3-row jobs were the Pelham 26/28
fleet.
Mixing a 3-row and a 4-row portion causes only minimal problems.
Intercom (if equipped) won't go trainline and PA will probably
not work correctly. What other circuits are on the 4th row?
I can't think of any.
I'm not an IRT person and I admit I can't keep my redbirds straight (except for the WF R-33/R-36). I know that there are some Redbirds without the 4-row EP and that they are not 100% compatible with the smee cars that have the 4-row EP. If it's 26s and 28s, I accept that.
There are some WF R-36s on the 6 which are almost always found intermixed with mainline cars.
I don't know about that one either. In 6398's last transfer, which was from Concourse to 207 St, it was tugged out of Concourse on the end of the train with a couple of 2700s and some ratty Pelham R36s. Aside from the fluctuating SAP, which has always happened when R68s are MU'd to older smee, although not necessarily first generation, the train ran from both ends and did not have to be flagged even though the number 6 wire on the R16 was not intended for E.C. I remember differences in the switching configuration and the 13 circuit, I think 6 being for series on one and 13 for side destination illumination. I can't provide hard DATA, except that Mr R46 was there too as a witness. After that day, I had trouble believing anything I read in work manuals or operating instructions.
On "old school" equipment, both 6 and GS have to be energized to
pick up the group. If you had the enercon switch on the s***can
(apologies to Steve, but I believe I am allowed to refer to the
R68 fleet negatively in the past tense....at the time (1989?) that
was an accurate description) in LOCAL mode then the 6 wire would
always be energized and the R-16 would pick up and all would seem
normal. Otherwise, I'd think it would not have taken power.
No longer Jeff, 6 wire (which was switching) is now essentially unused. The GS wire is used for first point. This is why it takes the brunt of the transient spikes from the propulsion side.
By the way, transients on the air brake side are equavilent. Those transients are what is responsible for the deterioration of the micro-switches in the NYAB Electric Self lapper.
Notice I said "old school"! There was an obscure safety reason
for the seemingly redundant use of GS and 6 at the same time --
to make it harder for a wiring harness cross to cause a false
application of power. However, there is still another redundancy
in that the 1/2 wire must be energized before the line switch picks
up. That redundant 6 wire was first grabbed in the mid-80s during
the flushing cars' GOH for Enercon. Later, during the PA-HVAC
control line separation project, 6 was grabbed for PA control.
Surges on the A and R lines shouldn't be as high in voltage (smaller
coils) but since those contacts are closing and breaking often
the damage is even more severe. You have to wonder how NYAB
could design something like that with little Cherry switches
and expect it to hold up.
Licon or ITW, the manufacturers of the switches, produced a switch that was supposed to be resistant to transient arcing. However, as you know, electrical arcing produces ozone. Ozone causes plastic to deteriorate rapidly. Hence the switches will fail. BTW, the suppression on the coils and within the circuit did not help.
Thanks to all (Train Dude; Engine Brake) for clearing up that confusion - I remember somewhere it was posted that the two R62 types couldn't MU....for reasons other than you described above.
wayne
Nah, the Westinghouse R62s and the GE R62s can run as a train, although not likely in passenger service. The R44/46s can NOT MU. The brake pipe and straight air differences, as well as the lack of a feed valve on Westcode equipped cars prevent normal transfering of cars including both types; as well as the electric portion wiring as Train Dude described. I never heard of a restriction on car moves involving R28 or R29s and R62s, whether GE or Westinghouse. I had a transfer a few years back involving a pickup at the East of 7700s, a swing over to Mosholu for some R62s and the balance to the Main SHop at 207. Except for the lack of IC for the double end man, there were no air brake or propulsion problems, and furthermore, no restrictions, implying that the move is legal.
I always see R26, R28 and R29 all mixed together on the #5 train. I know all pre-R62 IRT types can run in the same train. Never saw a mixed consist of R62/R62A and Redbird.
wayne
There are also some reliability issues with using WH master
controllers with GE packages in the train, in some equipment
classes, owing to the less beefy fingers in the WH controllers.
Also, although they are supposed to be equivalent, the smoothest
ride would not be well-served by mixing WH and GE packages, or
WABCO and NYAB air brakes.
Jeff, his is very true. In the GE control package, The Line Breaker, the 'S' Switch and the 'P' switches all have very beefy coils by which they operate. When the fields collapse in these coils when the T/O goes to 'coast', the transients on the GS wire can excede 450 volts. (I actually measured this on a scope). This will easily pop the shunt on or burn the tips on the 14 and 14C fingers in the Westinghouse Master Controller.
06/03/2000
[As for the R-32s, they will be around for a minimum of a dozen more years (all but the R-32 GEs).]
Why the GE's first, are they problematic?
Bill "Newkirk"
They have no working AC units, and are out of service during the summer. Basically, all 8 of them are useless and should go ...
Why weren't they rebuilt with working A/C units during GOH?
Not sure. GE overhauled them, and for some reason they didn't install them properly, and later refused to fix them. You'd have to ask someone who is more knowledgable for more details.
The cars were overhauled by Buffalo transit using Sigma HVAC. It was a complete failure. Sigma is gone. Parts are not available. It was determined that the replace the HVAC with Stone Safety or thermo-king would be prohibitively expensive.
The R-32 GEs ( cars 3594-95, 3880-81, 3892-93, 3934-37) were rebuilt by Buffalo transit with Sigma HVAC units. These units were a complete failure. Parts are no longer available and replacement with Stone Safety or Thermo-King would be prohibitively expensive as the entire car would need to be re-piped. Hence, the scrap pile!!!!!!!
06/03/2000
When they said the GE R-32's, it didn't dawn on me about the 10 GE overhauled units. I was thinking of the old split between the GE and Westinghouse cars.
Bill "Newkirk"
Two words:
Stainless Steel. The stuff takes forever to rust, and as long as you maintain the mechanicals, the car will last forever.
-Hank
Stainless steel may take forever to rust but it is subject to metal fatigue none the less and most are carrying rebuilt but original trucks for the type. Surprisingly enough, another train of R38 has been converted to AC traction so maybe one or two of them will be spared for the late future.
Self Explainatory Title! Since When!?!?!?!?!?
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
The R38's which had AC traction motors a couple of years ago were failures. They were 4040 to 4049. They have all been restored to their original configuration. I understand there are 8 more assorted numbered AC traction R38's in CIYD which have not been in passenger service yet. Had the numbers, but misplaced them. Sorry!
Metal fatigue is a very slow process. If that was the only factor in the lifespan of the R32, then they'd last for a century (if maintained properly).
Yes. And fatigue also requires mechanical stress, which subway car bodies are not often subjected to. The frames will fail long before you will see fatigue cracks on the body.
-Hank
None of the Redbirds are younger than the R-32s. Some of the last Redbirds, the R-36s, were delivered the same year that delivery of the R-32s started, 1964. The oldest Redbirds, the R-26s, date from 1959-60.
David
Make that 1958 for the R-26s.
Make it whatever you want, it's 1959.
David
According to "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual", my oft-quoted source of car information, Dave is correct. The R-26s were built & delivered between 1959 and 1960.
I stand corrected. Were the R-22s still being delivered in 1958?
Yes. The R-22s were delivered in 1957-58.
David
Why don't they use the express trackson the F/G line anymore? It seems perfectly logical, and there are numerous transfers to the express. Why not extend G trains to Church Ave., and Let F trains run express? It would save a lot of time, especially at Bergen St.
Restoration of Culver express service was proposed a few years ago, but people at the local stops north of Church Avenue protested the prospect of losing some of their service. The G was not deemed a practical substitute by these riders, since almost everyone who would board a G would end up transferring to an F (or to an A or C at Hoyt-Schermerhorn).
David
It was said that the G trains runs too few. Not many people at the local stops like to make the transfer anyway. What might be a better plan would be to have one F branch run local from Manhattan and terminate at Church with the other G (both currently merge along the same track anyway), while the other F branch from Manhattan run express to Ditmas and then local to Coney. How does this plan sound?
This sounds like a good idea. The F is extremely crowded between Jay and 7th ave.
Another way to reduce F crowding in manhattan would be to restore the K, Essex is always a very long station stop in the am rush.
we discussed this before, they could go back to the old way, The Exp ran local between CI and Kings Hwy, and then ran Exp to Jay St, The Local Started at KH and ran Local, The G started at Church, this during Rush Hours. This could happen someday again.
06/03/2000
Re: The old (F) Culver Express.
Wasn't the switch north of Kings Highway removed (on southbound track) which makes this move impossible?
Bill "Newkirk"
The switch from Manhattan Bound Local to the express is removed (track as well).
And, of course, it can never be put back.
He's referring to the service that ran north of Church in the late 60's/early 70's. Trains which terminated at Kings Highway made all local stops, and Coney Island trains ran express from Church to Jay St. Since their Manhattan-bound service was cut in half, people at the local stops rightfully complained. It was terminated in 1973.
Only a new route, running local from Church, up 6th Ave. would allow the resumption of F express service.
There's only a couple of stops between CI and Kings Highway, and the trains don't seen to really load up till about 15th st or 7th ave. Running trains local from CI to Ditmars and then more locals termination at Church seems to be the plan.
The F already has very frequent headways (on paper) so any extra service might cause capacity problems further down the line, like in Queens.
Give Rudy G a shovel, and have him dig a tunnel from Jay street to the manhattan bridge south tracks!
Dave
Nah, I'd rather see a DeKalb-Rutgers tunnel connection.
Only the addition of a new, seperate Sixth Ave local (V?) line would allow the resumption of Culver Express service. The G is not an option, as it doesn't go into MAnhattan, and partial F service would not be worth running ...
What line and station was the last to be built on the system? What year was the final one built and are they planning on building any other lines throughout greater NYC?
The Queensbridge line was the most recently opened. As for future lines, the connection between 36st. and Queensbridge will be done this fall, possibly be used for an extended GO, but no new routeing until 2002.
2001 for 63rd Street Connector, not 2002. As stated, however, the last stations to open in the NYC Transit System are on the 63rd Street Line, which opened in 1989. They are: Lexington Avenue, Roosevelt Island, and (the current terminus) 21st Street-Queensbridge. The 63rd Street Connector has no stations.
David
06/03/2000
[2001 for 63rd Street Connector, not 2002]
This is of course depends on the full arrival of the R-143's for the (L)(M)? We do need additional equipment to runs this, right?
Bill "Newkirk"
Technically, no. The Q train could be extended to 71st Avenue or 179th Street utilizing the current fleet and a few donors from other shops. However, the time between trains would be substantially increased on that line. Ideally, 140 cars or 14 train-sets are needed to extend the service with the current frequency of service.
4 sets could be acquired from the G's extra A-A cars if they cut it back to Court Sq.
Which Bronx subway station is in the most dangerous and delapitated condition.
Unless one of our posters is an engineer who works on stations for NYC Transit, any answer to this question would be based on opinion and not on fact.
David
I heard last night on the channel 5 news that Metro North got 9 new trains to add to the 3 lines. Does anyone know which line is going to get the bulk of the cars, and what type of cars they are?
Thanks
Clark Palicka
I couldn't find any moe information about this, but are you sure Channel 5 didn't simply mean they were adding additional service? Remember the railroads run on a timetable basis, not headways, so adding a "new train" may mean say, a 5:15 to Stamford that didn't run before, but not new equipment.
I thought the subways also ran on timetables?
What the New Haven line is doing is having some existing trains make additional stops that used to be bypassed but no extra trains
Several local news broadcasts are carrying a story about sabotage intended to slow or stop progress on the Skytrain. The incident involved the segment of the Skytrain that crosses the Belt Parkway and heads north along the Van Wyck. According to the broadcasts, up to 6 cans of diesel fuel or gasoline were stolen and used to set fire to a $1.2 million crane. The crane was destroyed. During the fire, the 100 foot boom of the crane fell, narrowly missing two firemen. According to the reports, local S.E. Queens residents have been trying to stop the project and are annoyed with the Port Authority because of noise and damage to their homes. No suspects yet (or 10,000 suspects depending on your point of view).
Ummm...that's Airtrain. Skytrain is in Vancouver :-)
David
OOOOPS - One bad for me. Otherwise, the story stands.
Sounds like some REALLY nasty NIMBY's or could also be some kind of internal labor dispute.
We'll have to wait 'n see what develops.
Doug aka BMTman
Sure! Where activisim fails, resort to random acts of violence. It happens everywhere. The boom fell due to the loss of hydraulic pressure when the hydraulic lines failed in the fire. One firefighter was injured, but not seriously.
-Hank
Are you sure it was the hydraulics? The crane involved in the incident did not use hydraulic pistons to raise and lower the boom. It was the older type with a cable-winch system.
-Daniel
I'm going by the report from the FDNY.
-Hank
R142 Test Line 2 Weekdays
Southbound
706A
1020A
140PM
458PM
814 PM
from Flatbush Av
841AM
1202 PM
0322 PM
637PM
958 PM
R142A Line 6 Weekdays
Southbound from Pelham Bay
6AM,,808AM,,1024AM,,1236PM,,252PM,,458PM,,712PM
Northbound from Brooklyn Bridge
705 AM,913AM , 1126 Am, 142 PM ,356 PM,602PM,819 PM
R142 Line 2 Saturdays
Southbound from 241 st
703 AM, 1025 AM, 144 PM , 504 PM, 627 PM
Northbound from Flatbush Av
848AM, 1208 Pm, 328 PM ,648 PM , 1011 PM,
R142A Line 6 Saturdays
Southbound leaving Pelham
703 Am, 915 Am, 1127 Am, 137 PM,347 PM,557 PM,807 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
811 AM, 1025 AM, 1234 Am, 244 PM, 454 PM, 704 PM ,915PM
R142 Line 2 Sundays
leaving 241 Southbound
651 AM, 1027 Am, 152 PM , 526 Pm, 850 PM
Leaving Flatbush Av Northbound
846 AM, 1211 PM, 341 PM, 712 PM, 1036 PM
R142A Line 6 Sundays
Leaving Pelham Bay Southbound
656 Am ,911 Am,1127 Am ,138 PM,354 PM,616 PM,830 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
803AM, 1021 AM,1236 PM,248 PM,504 PM,723 PM,936 PM
When does this start??? I can catch it on the weekends....
3TM
No Start Date announced,Keep Watching,,30 Day Test
Last I heard was June 15 but subject to change.
YES, I will be running that train 2 days during the week and once on Saturday.
The R 142 falls on 2 of my weekday runs which are the 8:08AM And the 12:36PM out of Pelham Bay. Out of Brooklyn Bridge is the 9:13AM and 1:42PM.
On Saturday I will be running the train for the 3:47PM out of Pelham and the 4:54PM Out of Brooklyn Bridge.
Dave are these non-revenue test runs or test runs with passengers?
I'm riding June 17th and would love to get a ride on it.
How about some times for key stations, like
#2: Penn Station or Times Square, Borough Hall
#6: Grand Central, 125th street
Wayne
Me and Trevor and were discussing this yesterday. All I know is that on the 6 line he says the first one pulls out June 15 at 6am on the Pelham Terminal on the 6 line. I won't be able to be there because of a Regents(ARGHHHHH) but I will be on that afternoon. I hear it is supposed to run all day.
My regents on that day starts at 12:00, so I will be skipping the optional review class beforehand to ride the first run. Now, to explain to mom why I'm leaving at 4:30am...
If all goes well they should be in Revenue service but I'm not sure about what time they will arrive at the major station stops.
I'll check into it and post.
I am also figuring this out. Name the trip on the 2 on weekdays and Saturdays and I can give you the times at timepoints on the schedule.
How about Times Sq?
Times Square is one of the stations. I might finish this thing tonight or before I go to New York on Monday and will upload it at that time. Stations I will have times for are 241st, East 180th, 149th, 135th, 96th, 42nd, 14th, Chambers, Nevins, Franklin, and Flatbush on the 2, and Pelham Bay Park, East 177th, Hunts Point Avenue, 138th, 125th, 68th, 42nd, Astor, Bleeker, and Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. When I finish, I will post on the board. It will also be uploaded on to my web page for download.
DISCLAIMER: TIMES CAN BE OFF BY A FEW MINUTES. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO GO TO THE STATION AT LEAST 5-10 MINUTES BEFORE THE TIME I GIVE SO THAT YOU ARRIVE BEFORE THE TRAIN DOES AND NOT AFTER. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT COMES AROUND AGAIN.
Question to Pelham Bay Dave:
I'm from Sydney, recently spent 10 days in NY and rode a lot of the subway, and like to keep an eye on schedules and subtalk. A question, if I may:
You say you may be driving the new R 142 train on weekdays, ex Pelham at 8.08 and 12.36. Running time to City Hall is about 55-57 mins, so arrival there would I assume be about 9.05 and 1.35 approx. You then say you will return at 9.13 and 1.42. This tends to indicate that you will step back one or two trains either at City Hall arrival, or departure track. I rode around the loop last year in the PM rush, and it was very quick - hardly time for a change of crew.
I would be interested in details of your working, assuming my timings are correct and published time-tables have these running times.
Thanks. Ian
Well there is no crew change at Brooklyn Bridge and the running time is 58 Minutes to 59 Minutes from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. On the 8:08 it arrives at Brooklyn Bridge at 9:07 and leaves at 9:13. There is a train on the uptown side and in the loop. So by the time I discharge the train and take it around its time to go. During Rush Hours theres a 6 Minutes layover with a train leaving every 3 Minutes. On the 12:36 it get to Brooklyn Bridge at 1:33 a train. the train ahead is a No.6 to Parkchester that leaves at 1:37. So my train would be in the loop. The headway is then 5 Minutes with a 9 Minute layover
Also NO PASSENGERS are allowed to ride in the City Hall Loop as ordered by the New York City Police Department However sometimes there is no enough time to get people off the train. I hope you did enjoy the view.
Pelham Bay Dave,
Thanks for your note and yes, the view was fine if a bit 'in the dark!' It was an experience, however. We got around in about 90 secs, and set off north in another 30, so things must have been just a bit behind.
New York is one great system, anyhow. I enjoyed it immensely.
The train you where on must of been late. Ofcause thats normal for PM Rush Hours on the No.6 Line.
Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood. The R142's were supposed to be tested for 30 days @ 24 hrs per day. The schedule seems to leaave very large gaps at night.
The rest of the time is for analysis of data collected while the cars are in service.
David
So there will be a few computers n'stuff still in the cars, or just in the cabs or attached to the trucks? Maybe they will close one car and keep everything in there?
What's the latest word on whether the R142/R142A test trains will begin passenger service tomorrow, June 15th?
If you have access to a "Public Access" TV station there's some infor in this month's Transit Transit. There also have been a number of threads here, so if you don't get a specific reply you might search for some of these recent discussions (personally I haven't been keeping up with them).
Mr t__:^)
Since the crane was clearly leased, the attack might have been against the leasing company-Bay Crane. Or the arsonist was simply dumb.
At any rate, a new crane was delivered on Saturday-very little loss of time.
1. I was on a Manhattan bound Z at 8:00am. There was no skip-stop service, even though it went express after Myrtle. Is this normal during this time?????
2. How come the rest of the R143s will go to the M line and not the J line??? Does it have to do with space at ENY and FP yards????????
3Train#1940Mike
The poster was referring to a draft car assignment that came out a while ago. The final car assignment has not been determined, so where the remaining R-143s will go (after the L line has been filled up -- that much has been determined) is anybody's guess.
David
They were probably missing a J train, that went out of service either enroute or at the terminal. When this happens, they'll have the following train make all stops to pick up the slack. As far as the R143's go, whatever they don't need on the L will go to the M so they can run OPTO service on the shuttle nights and weekends.
I think the Manhattan-bound Z runs only until 8am on weekdays, even though the maps and schedules say that it runs "rush hours", which in the morning, is supposed to be 6:30 - 9:30.
I live in Woodhaven and work in Manhattan, and the only times I have seen a Manhattan-bound Z at Woodhaven Blvd. are the times I have arrived at the station before 8:00.
Likewise, the Queens-bound Z cuts off much earlier than the end of the afternoon "rush hour", which, according to the map, spans 3:30 - 8:30. I don't know the exact time that the Queens-bound Z stops running, but I think it is around 6:30 or 7:00pm.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Of course, while my post above relays my understanding of the hours of the Z, it does NOT address the question of why that particular Z made all stops (which was the question asked)! Sorry about that.
It could have been the last Z of the morning which was run like a J, or even a mis-signed J.
Sorry to miss the mark in my first post.
Ferdinand Cesarano
More likely the Z ran local because of a gap in service in front of it. Sometimes in the PM I ride Z's which run local east of Myrtle because of some delay with the J in front of it.
The first Z train leaves Jamaica around 7:10 and runs every 7.5 minutes until around 8:20.
Reverse direction, the first Z leaves Broad St. at 4:43 and runs every 7.5 minutes until around 6:20.
Um... I think you're catching Salaam sickness. Why so many question marks. I think 3 is the most someone should use in a sentence.
The M is the only short off-hour shuttle with a conductor, why? Because there isn't a single car that can run on the Eastern Division that has a transverse cab, the R-143 will change that. If there going to be used at night, they might as well be on the M during the day.
What's up with all the vadalism inside these cars. How long has this new movement(scratchiti) been around and what if anything can the MTA do about it?
Scratchiti has been around since the mid-1980s, when NYCT started installing vandal-resistant window frames to thwart vandals who would kick out the panels. Glass didn't work well with the frames, so they went to plastic. Unfortunately, the plastic was easily scratched, so NYCT has gone back to a kind of glass that will work with the frames. However, the glass is not scratch-proof or scratch-resistant.
The R-142/R-142A and R-143 cars will have windows that feature a "sacrificial" layer of plastic that can be removed and replaced without removing the window from the car. Additionally, CCTV is being tested in a pair of Redbirds (sorry, I don't know the results).
David
I was on a Coach USA bus yesterday that had a big sign as you entered telling you that you were on candid camera.
Did the subway shut down at all during the notorious summer of 1977?
The subway did shut down in 1977, but not because of Son of Sam or anything like that. There was a huge blackout that affected the entire city and more in mid-July.
David
It was this blackout which precipitated the looting and rioting. I recently watched a documentary on the History Channel comparing the 2 major NYC blackouts (1965 and 1977). Even though I was alive to remember the '77 blackout, I had absolutley no idea that the depth of the destruction during 1977 was so horribly. Now I understand why Bed-Stuy looked like Berlin circa 1945 when I rode through it on the J train as a kid.
I still don't understand why it got so bad everywhere in '77. Last year, Washington Heights was blacked out for a similar amount of time during an equally oppressive heat wave in July, but nothing major happened at all.
You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?
I don't recall other neighborhoods hit equally hard. One perception was that the blackout permitted many disenfranchised minorities the excuse to vent their anger at what Al Sharpton refers to (now - he was not around then)as interlopers. The residents destroyed most of the long standing (and presumably Jewish owned) businesses. When the smoke cleared, most decided not to rebuild their businesses. this left opportunity for the minority enterpreneur to move in. What you see today is the result of the demographic shift in small business ownership in the area.
I was living in Flatbush at that time and it was hit pretty bad. As a matter of fact one of the neighborhood stores -- Bedford Camera -- was made "famous" by being one of the first stores in the city to get Federal aide from the devastation (they got write-ups about it in the dailys).
The day after the looting young punks were going up and down the streets hawking stolen goods. Even weeks after the Blackout dudes would walk into barber shops and whatnot asking people if they wanted to buy a camera, TV, whatever (they were always turned down).
Doug aka BMTman
[You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?]
Bushwick may have been hit even harder than Bed-Stuy. From what I've heard, Broadway in Brooklyn (the J/Z's route) was a respectable, if not quite prosperous, commercial area before the riots. Today, 23 years after the fact, it still hasn't fully recovered.
Yeah, but it's better than it was in the early 80's. Looking out the window of a J train circa 1981 (if it wasn't painted over with grafitti) all I can remember seeing was burned out buildings and vacant lots. It actually scared me.
You're right, Peter. If anyone reads Brooklyn Bridge magazine, there is an article about Bushwick talking about the Blackout off 1977.
Unfortunately, I read today that Brooklyn Bridge is going under.
I always wondered how they could afford such a fancy, glossy magazine with such low subscription rates (they owe me quite a few more issues). The answer is, they can't.
Brooklyn Bridge was started by someone older than the internet with some inheritance money. Perhaps it can be reborn as a website -- cheaper than print, and no cost to mail.
Actually, Brooklyn Bridge magazine may yet return. Before this one I remember another Brooklyn Bridge magazine back in the 1970's (there may have been one in the 80's as well).
One of the problems with a borough-based mag is that if you're monthy, chances are that you'll run out of interesting stuff to report on sooner or later. I think the current BB had some great photography and covered some eclectic things about Brooklyn that were interesting and fresh news pieces.
Unfortunately, I think the mag failed by not advertising and having rather uninteresting cover photos. Nowadays you need a "hook" to grab people at the newstands. Whether it be putting a "celebrity" on the cover, or something spectacular, at least some people would have bought issues on esthetics alone.
Anyhow, that's too bad they're going under. Hopefully it won't be for good.
Doug aka BMTman
[Unfortunately, I read today that Brooklyn Bridge is going under.
Brooklyn Bridge was started by someone older than the internet with some inheritance money. Perhaps it can be reborn as a website -- cheaper than print, and no cost to mail.]
That sounds like a smart idea. The $$$ savings in electronic vs. paper publishing are considerable. In addition, I got the impression that BB was aimed at a sophisticated readership, one likely comprised of 'Net-savvy people who actually may prefer an electronic format.
North of Myrtle, it's thriving but when you get south of Myrtle, things start to go downhill.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bushwick, Bed-Stuy and East NY seemed to have gotten the worst of it. All 3 neighborhoods have rebounded, but were virtual warzones for a good 12-15 years after the destruction of 1977. Next time you ride the J train along Broadway in Brooklyn, take notice of all the apartment buildings and stres lining the street. 15 years ago, 9 out of 10 of them were burnt out shells, and had been for years.
Thanks Chris.
I'm from out of town. What erea does the "J" line go through and which neighbourhood would still have the most visible scars today of that infamous summer?
The J passes through Jamaica, Richmond Hill and Woodhaven in Queens, Cypress Hills, East New York, Bed-Stuy, Bushwick and Williamsburgh in Brooklyn.
thanks for the info guys.I'm coming down mid-June and these are spots I'd like to photograph while riding the system.
[Bushwick, Bed-Stuy and East NY seemed to have gotten the worst of it. All 3 neighborhoods have rebounded, but were virtual warzones for a good 12-15 years after the destruction of 1977. Next time you ride the J train along Broadway in Brooklyn, take notice of all the apartment buildings and stores lining the street. 15 years ago, 9 out of 10 of them were burnt out shells, and had been for years.]
Bushwick still has a long way to go. I'll never forget the time a couple of years ago when I rode at a Z's railfan window from Chambers to Sutphin at twilight. I noticed that the tracks became much brighter as we got into Woodhaven, even though by then it was nearly full dark out. It dawned on me that the brightness resulted from lit up storefronts on Jamaica Avenue under the elevated structure. And that explained why it had been so much darker over Broadway in Bushwick - many of the storefronts in that area were abandoned and therefore dark.
I can't believe nobody even mentioned Brownsville, (which by the way is in the middle of Bed-Stuy, East NY, and Bushwick. Brownsville by far took the worst of the beatings in the riots of the 70's. There were whole blocks of burnt out apartment buildings there, alot are rebuilt now. The 4 block stretch of Howard Av from Eastern Pkway to the IRT el at E98 Street was nothing but burnt out apartment buildings in the early 80's. Bed Stuy on the other hand was predominately brownstones while Bushwick and ENY had alot of private houses.
Did they not use that background to shoot a couple of movies in the late 70's or early 80's. Charles Bronson,The warriors. Just wondering.
They shot "Wolfen" the horror movie up in the Bronx. Hollywood also erected artificial burnt out buildings in addition to the ones already there for that movie. The former 41st Precinct on Simpson Street was used in the 1981 movie, "Fort Apache, The Bronx". One Bronx related movie that was NOT shot in the Bronx was "A Bronx Tale"- that was shot in Astoria, Queens.
I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!
Doug aka BMTman
Wasn't one of those shot in East N.Y. or Brownsville?
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum! ]
If the budget was so tight then maybe they should have filmed it in Troy instead.
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!]
Death Wish was an example of a series that should have been put out to pasture after the first installment. Actually, that's been true of most series, with the exception of Scream.
Speaking of deserts appearing where they shouldn't, it's been said that in the early scenes of Titanic - the highest budget production of all time, and filmed in Mexico - you can see a strip of desert between the ship and the wharf when it's in "Southampton." I don't remember seeing that, but I didn't know of it when I saw the movie.
I haven't seen French Connection 2, but I'll bet there's no subway footage in it.
[I recall that the very last movie in the "Death Wish" series (#IV??)that was supposed to be The Bronx was actually shot in
Israel!!
You could see desert in some scenes in the background! That movie's budget was tighter than a drum!]
Snow-capped mountains are visible in the background of Jackie Chan's Rumble in the Bronx. It was filmed in Vancouver.
BX55: I lived in Astoria the last 14 months before we moved to California and I was sure that area looked like Queens to me, either Astoria or Long Island City. Are you sure A Bronx Tale WAS shot in Astoria because if it was then I did see what I thought I saw. I wonder why it wasn't shot in the Bronx?
For #4 Sea Beach Fred:
The reason I heard for shooting the film "A Bronx Tale" in Astoria, Queens rather than in the Bronx is because the streets where it was supposed to be taking place on Arthur Ave./the Belmont area and the streets there are too narrow apparently. It's also very busy there at times and would be hard to shoot there.
(For those of you who don't know, it's off of Fordham Rd. in the Bronx not too far from Southern Blvd. It is STILL a very safe place and many Italians have stayed in the area while new Albanian refugees have moved in.)
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWwwwwwww ALBANIANS? Damn Drug Traffickers!
Long live the Serbs!
Say NO to Greater Albania...
or they might make the Bronx a part of Albania too.
Which ain't a bad idea.
Hey - long time no hear! You missed a post from yet another South Bend native a week or so ago. He wanted to know what lines the Redbirds ran on.
Wonder what part of town he's from...
hey whats up...
been away for a time..
busy doing other stuff.
Sorry, but my buddies in what is the former Yugoslavia are the Croatians.
Its really nice to see Sea Beach Fred & BX55 getting along so nicely now. I thought there was going to be a war between them last summer!!!
last summer?
Dang a year has gone by
I'm not sure BX55 has completely forgiven me, but there is absolutely no residual anger on my part, none whatsoever.
You two could bury the hatchet once and for all privately.
Oh, you're forgiven. No bad blood there. LOL
Thank you BX55 and Steve 8AVEXP. I'm still wondering how I got involved in that embroglio in the first place, but I'm probably better off not knowing.
Consider it over and forgotten. (sniff) I love these (sniff, sniff) happy endings. Where's my handkerchief?
Out of all the communities that were hit the hardest by the 77 riots and fires,which ones have never come back?
[Out of all the communities that were hit the hardest by the 77 riots and fires,which ones have never come back?]
Brownsville, for sure. Bushwick has come back somewhat, but it still is way short of a full recovery.
Obligatory caution: as I've noted many times, neighborhood decline is a complex process that seldom can be reduced to one or two neat factors. Even without the riots, Brownsville and Bushwick might very well be troubled areas.
Thanks Peter.
So even before the riots, these comunities have had problems. Has the MTA ever closed stations in drug infested neighbourhoods due to the violence problem. If so which ones.
[Has the MTA ever closed stations in drug infested neighbourhoods due to the violence problem. If so which ones.]
Not specifically, but Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle sort of counts. It was shut in 1995 and not included in the line's recent rehabilitation. Dean Street's problem was not so much violence, as its popularity among farebeaters. Some estimates said that farebeaters significantly outnumbered paying riders.
I'm not sure about the other boroughs, but in the Bronx the idea of closing staions was proposed. The idea was to close public places like schools, post offices, and subway stations in the South Bronx so that people could move out and they could just "abandon" the neighborhood in a sense.
There is ONE LOT next to Prospect Avenue IRT station and I hear there is a blighted patch along Third Avenue between 161st and 169th Street - BUT here is the other side of the coin: Alighting from my Redbird #5 train at the quaint Freeman Street station and walking up a nearby lane, I was greeted by the friendly noise of a backhoe merrily digging up a lot for the foundations of new homes. Not a single abandoned building did I see. I saw two-story private houses with lots next to them turned into gardens. Did I feel unsafe there? NOT IN THE LEAST. And the walk from Simpson Street to Hunts Point Avenue along a thoroughly rejuvenated Southern Boulevard was a marvelous revelation. It is now bustling shopping street with stores, restaurants, banks etc.. It was largely abandoned when former President Jimmy Carter visited nearby Charlotte Street in 1979. What's at Charlotte Street now? Why, it's Charlotte Gardens, a pleasant, tree-lined cul-de-sac right next to Fr. Louis Nine (pronounced NEE-nay) Avenue (formerly the desolate Stebbins Avenue), lined with well-tended one-and-two-family homes. Rubble? Not much. Weeds, mostly, and a few tires and mattresses now and again; maybe a sofa or a stove here and there. The burned-out and fire-damaged buildings are few and far between. There has been a recent fire in a commercial strip near 174th Street and Boston Road, but it may be gone by now. West Farms Square area has had a complete makeover as well. The Bronx? IT'S LOOKING UP - WAY UP.
Anyone for a walk through Crotona Park?
wayne
You're right, Wayne. I believe the commercial strip on Boston Rd. and 174th Street actually had TWo fires. It's strange because the building just outside of the station has been left burnt for quite a while and a friend told me that the burnt building a cross the street was on fire a second time a few months ago. I'm not sure about those two buildings now because April was the last time I came around that particular area of the Bronx.
What was that station we got off at last fall to walk over to the 6- Intervale Ave? The area certainly looked as if it was on the uppity-up.
I have been hanging around the Longwood areas Steve B is talking about in the Bronx. Banana Kelly, the neighborhood organization has a lot to do with it. I feel pretty safe again.
Banana Kelly also refers to the curved section of Kelly Street between East 163rd Street and Intervale Avenue, shaped like a Banana.
I remember one utterly infamous block - Boone Avenue, around 174th Street near the Cross Bronx Expressway. I accidentally got off the Cross Bronx to avoid traffic back in 1976 and wound up in there - the most forbidding street I've ever seen - a canyon of 6-story apartment building shells with mounds of trash in the pothole-marked street.
It appears to be gone now.
wayne
Wayne,it's refreshing that finally one person knows about Banana Kelly, who I constantly make reference to. It's great to see that you are in the least bit educated on urban history.
I also remember the failed attempt to dress up the abandoned buildings in the Bronx by painting "signs of life" in the windows. It didn't work.
I remember a beautiful Art Deco apartment house, white brick with red trim, at Cross Bronx Expressway and Clinton Avenue, which had fallen into ruin years ago. I wonder if it's still standing, and, if so, has it been renovated?
wayne
When we look back in hindsight, what the hell was the government thinking with that concept of painting life in the windows of abandoned bldgs? Once again hard earned tax dollars at work!
Any signs of those bldgs still around. If so where?
This idea is so funny to me now!
I think there is ONE or TWO windows in an otherwise occupied and rehabbed building along Westchester Avenue somewhere, perhaps above Simpson Street. I don't think there are many of those fake windows left - either their buildings have been rehabilitated or torn down.
wayne
That "dressing up" thing for building facades was an Ed Koch idea.
Doug aka BMTman
It sure worked well!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha good little story and pleasant visual, thanks. Have you been back to that street recently to see what it looks like.I can't imagine anywhere in the South bronx , anything resembles that today.Most of that area seems to have come back from that notorious time. Although not every part of it has had the same fortune. Which one in your mind might still be slow to recover?
Melrose/Morrisania is still rubble for the most part. A drive up 3rd Avenue north of 161st is pretty depressing. Not much reason to live there after the 3rd Avenue El diappeared, free bus transfer non-withstanding.
[Melrose/Morrisania is still rubble for the most part. A drive up 3rd Avenue north of 161st is pretty depressing. Not much reason to live there after the 3rd Avenue El diappeared, free bus transfer non-withstanding.]
Transit and city officials probably thought that demolishing the el would *improve* the neighborhood. Most likely, they were thinking of Third Avenue in Manhattan, which of course did experience quite a revival post-el. Unfortunately, things turned out a little different in the Bronx.
How are areas like Mott Haven and Hunts Point. I have seen pictures taken about 10 years ago. Lots of rubble mostly around St-Mary's park. Hunts Point I heard was mostly industrial with the market and all but that lately with Giuliani and Disney as best friends (or so it looks like) that the Times Square prostitution probleme has now moved to the Hunts Point district of the Bronx. Any truth to it?
It's not even that they moved from Times square to Hunt's Point after Giuliani's power trip. They were always there and even used to be as far as Tiffany Street from what I've heard.
It was Simpson Street. That whole corridor along Southern Boulevard has undergone a transformation.
wayne
Thanks. You have to remember that prior to last fall, the only time I had ever ridden on that line was on August 9, 1967. Simpson St. is right where the line turns from Westchester Ave. to Southern Blvd., isn't it?
Yes that's the place.
It sure is! And I would DIE to have that apartment by the north end of the s/b platform; too bad it's a karate parlour. Redbirds singing around the clock....I wonder how the R142's are going to do on that 10MPH curve...only 43 degrees, but tight as a drum.
wayne
Knowing how many people hate train noises I'm sure given the opportunity a lot of them would gladly trade with you!I think I'd enjoy a stretch of straight rail better though..like between Simpson and Freman, about halfway perhaps. Watch 'em highball. I lived on Walton just off Tremont for 3 years and had a nice view and hearing of the Jerome line. Never bothered me except watching TV..every time I train went by the picture would jump up and down. Now I can watch and hear the BNSF trains about 700 feet away.
Have they improved the quality in noise reduction on the trains in the past years or has this been the case for as long as we can remember?
It's the architecture - even the newest IRT models (R62, R62A) scream on tight curves. They've taken to lubricating tracks (PATH) and adding sprayers (NYCT). The curves are just too tight in some spots.
wayne
In Chicago, Grand-Halsted on the Blue line was closed when that area fell into decline. It has since recovered nicely, and the station has been reopened.
In previous posts to this thread there have been inferences that anything west of Woodhaven was subject to fire and riots during the blackout. I would think this would include Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. I have always thought of Cypress Hills as the area within the limits of Atlantic Ave to the south, Jamaica Ave to the north, Alabama Ave to the west, and Elderts Lane to the east. This area is due west of Woodhaven, Queens.
Was this area involved in the fires and riots? I had several relatives living there at the time, and nothing was ever mentioned about it then!
[In previous posts to this thread there have been inferences that anything west of Woodhaven was subject to fire and riots during the blackout. I would think this would include Cypress Hills, Brooklyn. I have always thought of Cypress Hills as the area within the limits of Atlantic Ave to the south, Jamaica Ave to the north, Alabama Ave to the west, and Elderts Lane to the east. This area is due west of Woodhaven, Queens.
Was this area involved in the fires and riots? I had several relatives living there at the time, and nothing was ever mentioned about it then!]
I don't believe that Cypress Hills was affected much if at all. Most of the rioting was further east, in Bushwick, Brownsville and nearby areas.
Cypress Hills is as far east as you can go before hitting Queens. Those areas are all to the west of CH.
We always here about Bed-Stuy. Brownsville, East New York as beeing hit hard by the 77 riots and partially coming back as a comunity.
What about "Woodhaven".Was it hit as hard as brownsville. Are there still burnt out buildings along the "EL" or are they pretty much gone.How safe is "Woodhaven" today?
"Woodhaven" (you put it in quotes for some reason) was not hit at all by the riots. People who live in "Woodhaven" are capable of conducting themselves properly in a civilized society. Saying the other neighborhoods consisted predominantly of baboons is an insult to baboons.
>>>>Saying the other neighborhoods consisted predominantly of baboons is an insult to baboons<<<<<
I assume a statement like this can be attributed to youthful ignorance. As you grow older you will find that most of the people in even the worst neighborhoods are honest hard working people.
It's obvious that ageism is the last acceptable form of discrimination.
BTW, Anti-suburbanism is not a real form of discrimination. Choosing to live in a bland, sterile subdvision is a lifestyle choice like any other and isn't something that people can't control.
I think by choosing to be a suburbanite, you are choosing to shelter yourself and your children and not allow them to see things as they are. Suburbia to me is not reality but instead a very small piece of reality. You can't raise your child in an Upper-Class/Middle-class predominantly White neighborhood then set them free into the city and expect them to understand why certain people do what they do. By living in the suburbs, you are depriving yourself of so many experiences.
I think your hypothesis is somewhat simplistic. There are trade-offs in everything in life. If you choose to live in the inner city, you learn to be street smart or suffer the consequences. In the suburbs you may not get the substantial inner city education but the kids stand a better chance of not ending up in jail or as a statistic. As we see every day in the newspaper, failing 'Streetsmarts 101 can mean death. The cost is steep for skills that have limited utility in later life. How many inner city mothers and fathers, if given the choice, would opt to stay in the inner city as opposed to moving to the suburbs if the economic means were available?
Sorry if you thought my previous post indicated ageism or anti-suburbanism. It was meant as neither. However if the previous statement wasn't made from youthful ignorance, then one must assume it was from innate ignorance. I would prefer the former.
Well put, Tom. When my children were young, my wife and I were the most intelligent people in the world. As they got older (read: teenagers and young adults) they couldn't believe how stupid we were. Now, as they move through and beyond that stage, it's amazing how intelligent we are again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon!
You know it's funny how things work out. When I was coming up, everything was run by stodgy old farts who just couldn't understand that my fresh new innovative ideas were just what was needed by society. Now I am bothered by a bunch of kids with crazy impractical ideas who just don't appreciate the wisdom that comes with age. What bad luck to have fools in the generations before me and the generations after me. Have a nice day!!
The blackout/riots occurred just before iI quit and left the city. I was working a job in Pitkin Yard that night as luck would have it and walked home afterwards to my home on Grant Ave. just north of Atlantic.We had no problems whatsoever and that would be ditto for City Line, Woodhaven, and the part of Ozone Park that bordered Cypress Hills. To put it mildly it was an island in the middle of hell.But the riots were the last thing that happened to confirm I did the right thing moving to Montana. On another related note small town America is no escape from all the plagues of the cities..most of themm yes. Drugs are just as bad and since suburbia has been mentioned in this thread I'd be willing to say you don't escape that in suburbia, any more than you do in hick towns.{and I'm a hick). The major difference is there isn't as much , or little violence as those who indulge can pay for it. But I Lived in one town 99% white that had too many burglaries, both home and auto; noplace is too safe.
Biged,
I know that you lived on several different streets while in Cypress Hills, but how many years were you in CH before you left?
Incidentally, the check is in the mail!
All neighborhoods have began a rebuilding process but most of the neighborhoods which were hit the hardest (East New York, Bushwick, the South Bronx) are still not what many consider to be pleasant. Places around East New York/Brownville are still somewhat burnt out today.
And there, rising from the ashes and weeds, immediately adjacent to the Junius Street IRT station in the heart of Brownsville, USA, are Nehemiah Houses, dozens of them, which have created a pleasant, green neighborhood. One of our posters lives there, he can attest to this.
Down near New Lots (Lost?) BMT station of the "L" line, Mother Nature is reclaiming several square blocks north of Linden Boulevard.
Broadway/Brooklyn is still missing buildings in key spots along the way. Haven't been up Greene Avenue since 1980; last I looked there was still nothing there.
wayne
[Down near New Lots (Lost?) BMT station of the "L" line, Mother Nature is reclaiming several square blocks north of Linden Boulevard.]
In a similar vein, and one with transit relevance to boot, it was noted that until its recent demolition, the old Budd railcar plant outside Philadelphia was home to a large herd of deer.
Not surprising when you consider the R-32s could run like deer.
Wayne, have you or any of the other SubTalk "L" line riders noticed that the "landmark" Flxible bus that was used as part of a retaining wall for that scrap dealer at Blake and Junius Streets is missing??
I noticed about a week ago that the yard there has been cleaned up and is now used as a storage yard for a construction company's heavy-duty equipment. That red and white (and graffitied) Flxible that's been there for years is no more. I wonder what happenned to it? Scrapped?? Salvaged?? Anyone out there w/info would be greatly appreciated.
(P.S. -- SubBus, I hope you're reading this)
Doug aka BMTman
These neighborhoods were not destroyed in the riots. They were burned out over time. The only place specifically hit by the riots was the commercial street Broadway, Brooklyn. To see how it could have been different, see Pitkin Ave, Browsville, which retained its vitality even as the neighborhood collapsed (and even though the owners of the commercial property all live down in Florida).
Check out the immediate area around the New Lots Ave. IRT terminal. This area was here many of my friends (not me) went to get their illegal narcotics in the late 1980's. It was no man's land for the crack wars. Now, the empty lots have brand new tract houses and most of the burned out buildings have been renovated. Blake Ave. looks like Forest Hills now.
Will it last?
You talk about Bed-Stuy, was that the worst hit erea or were there other neighbourhoods even worse when it came to destruction.
As for the locations hit with looting and destruction, which neighbourhoods came back today and which ones still look that way?
[I still don't understand why it got so bad everywhere in '77. Last year, Washington Heights was blacked out for a similar amount of time during an equally oppressive heat wave in July, but nothing major happened at all.]
One theory is that many of the people in Washington Heights are immigrants from the Dominican Republic, and are used to blackouts due to their native country's unreliable electrical grid.
There was also a significant police presence (you'd know:-) Secondly in '77 the city was in a totally different economic realm.
Arti
While there was alot of looting during the blackout and people made out like bandits (Fortunoffs on Livonia Av closed down because of it) that wasn't the real reason for the riots. The riots were mostly racial and economic.
Are we talking about the stations or the actual streets here. How many people died during the rioting. Do we know?
I thought Fortunoff closed because they moved to Old Country Road before that. All eight stores where on Livonia Avenue.
They were in Westbury for awhile before the Brooklyn store closed. Their advertising actually said Fortunoff's Westbrook Stores.
Economics were the prevailing reason. The economy was in the dumps and in the city there was high unemployment (particularly among black and hispanic youth). Mix that in with a sweltering summer and the power keg was there. The lit fuse was the blackout.
Doug aka BMTman
are we saying this was inevitable?
If we are accepting that the riots were inevitable, do we go back in history and accept that all uprisings were justified because of socio-economic political and racist anger?
We are the human race not the animal kingdom. We're expected to react with our brains by putting our emotions aside
As humans, we are all individually responsible of our acts.
Too bad we don't live in such an ideal world!
Too bad others always have to pay!
Perhaps you should write a thesis on the subject.
Sorry guys, I don't want to take up anybody's time. It's just a very interesting part of NYC's history. For something as grand to happen and touch so many people,some drastic events must have lead up to the cap blowing off.
Actually, to be honest, that business about the lightning causing the blackout was erroneous -- I have to admit it was me. You see I had the TV on, the toaster was making toast, I had my electric razor going and all the lights were on in every room. Something had to give.
Either that or heypaul was doing some of his bizarre scientific experiments that involve quantum space-time theory and heavy atomic particles. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Perhaps his R9 cab is real, coming from an R9 he stole and tried to power in his garage using common household 120 VAC current, thus blowing the entire grid....lol
Maybe heypaul was building Beetleborgs or other such monstrosities in his lab and decided to activate one of them.
Seriously, I remember hearing that a transformer got hit by lightning somewhere in Westchester and it caused a ripple effect throughout the Con Edison system.
wayne
That sickening theory was broached during the Reginald Denny assault trials on the Left Coast several years ago. Basic theory was that young black males are more likely to be influencedby mob-rule and mob activity than others. Recently, that theory was revisited on an episode of "The Practice". To that extent - the theory tried to explain away the wanton violence. Personally, I think it's so much sociological clap-trap used by liberals to explain away the abundance of this kind of behavior in some communities. Again, my opinion. On the otherhand, we can't argue with history.
But whites can also be lead by mob violence. Here in New York we had the Howard Beach and Bensonhurst racial incidents. Also, the deep south -- until recent years -- was ruled by racial mob violence. No one race/ethnic group holds the "award" on "bad behavior".
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, you are 100% correct. I said that I thought that the argument was crap. You just cited the examples that prove it. Unfortunately, the jury in Lost Angeles gave the argument some creedance.
True. However, nobody is seriously trying to excuse the behavior of the white mobs in those incidents. Perhaps they were reacting to their fear that having too many black people in their neighborhoods would ruin them with crime and destroy property values. This statement is as ridiculous as any economic excuse used for minority looting in NYC in the summer of 77 or the looting in LA in 1992.
No. Just that the "right combination" of elements were there for the destruction that went on.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm poor. It's hot. I want a new color TV. I don't get the correlation ...
I'm not trying to justify any of the looting. I don't know what went on in the minds of those who looted.
Anyhow, stores were randomly looted -- not as if some jerk says "yeah, I could use a new TV today". The entire blackout period was a spontaneous event and a sad one, and I seriously doubt -- and hope -- that we don't have anything like it again.
Doug aka BMTman
Spontanous? It lasted for almost 48 hours, yet the looting only stopped when everything worthy of stealing was already stolen.
I can tell you exactly what went on in the minds of the looters:
"FREE SH$T!! NO COPS!! I WON'T GET CAUGHT!! I WANT AN 8 TRACK PLAYER!!!"
Yep, I think I still have my lifted 8-Track in the attic ;-)
LOL. Why in the world did manufacturers build those things in the millions with no fast-foward or rewind buttons is beyond me.
The one thing that's interesting about the lemon 8-Track tape: I believe it was invented by same guy who brought the world the Lear Jet. Wasn't his name John (?) Lear?
Just interesting that the guy who gave the world the first private-executive jet plane, did a lousy job with a low-priced high-volume, mass market item.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>LOL. Why in the world did manufacturers build those things in the millions with no fast-foward or rewind buttons is beyond me.<<<
Or perhaps the question should be is why did millions of people buy them? Actually in later production they did have models with FF. But they could never have rewind because of the continuous loop design of the tape inside.
BTW, I never owned one, but did work in a place that sold and fixed them.
Peace,
ANDEE
The fast forward feature was nothing more than a 2X which advanced the tape twice as fast. Not that I was into 8-tracks, but my father won a Fisher all-in-one compact stereo outfit in 1978 which even allowed you to record 8-tracks. It had that 2X feature.
[The entire blackout period was a spontaneous event and a sad one, and I seriously doubt -- and hope -- that we don't have anything like it again.]
Better police responses hopefully will make a difference in any future blackouts. We saw that in last summer's blackout in upper Manhattan, when a big, quickly deployed police presence helped keep things peaceful. Memories of 1977 must have remained strong even after more than two decades. In contrast, the event that came to mind when the lights went out in 1977 was the big northeastern blackout of 1965, which was largely peaceful. That may have accounted for the NYPD's apparent failure to have contingency plans in place.
Unfortunately ConEd still has a rather outdated system that is prone to overload, taking a look at least year's blackout of Northern Manhattan and the Queens Blackout of 1996.
It still relies heavily on outside sources of power, especially from Westchester county. Thunderstorms can happen and knock out important transmission lines and substations, and severe heat can too.
This combination can happen again.
I am amazed at how I haven't heard any plans from the MTA if God forbid, a city-wide outage happens again. How are they going to move people in the city? How are they going to get people out of stuck trains (there's bound to be some stuck in under-river tubes as well)?
And the pressing need for more power plants meets opposition in Queens. How can we even allow selfish NIMBY's to put it NYC at risk?
Unless NYC increases it's generating capacity and updates it's old feeder cables, a blackout is likely to happen again.
It wasn't so horrible in 1965. Cars and busses would still run. The commuter RRs have diesel locomotives and coaches.
Thank you for remembering the Queens blackout of May 1996! We had an early heat wave, and when Con Ed saw the power grid crashing, they arranged it so Queens would lose power. The rationale was reportedly that Queens is a 'low crime' area so it was better to black IT out than the perceived 'high crime' areas of other boroughs. Great message there- better to punish the 'good' people so the 'bad' people don't revolt!
It sticks out in my mind because we had a sick infant and were going to close on a co-op the next day. Try manuvering around an apartment cluttered with boxes while holding a flashlight!
[The lit fuse was the blackout]
Now that's a somewhat awkward metaphor :-)
Seriously, I have a hard time accepting economics as the primary factor. While the city's economy wasn't great in 1977, it surely was a lot better than it was in the early 1990's - when there weren't any riots (I'm excluding Crown Heights because of its fairly obvious racial/ethnic nature). Maybe it really was the blackout that was the precipitating factor. It was just enough to push matters over the edge.
No, I believe that the looting was merely some people who saw an opportunity to get something for free and took it. I don't care how poor you are, or what you steal, it's simply wrong. Even single mothers on welfare who stole diapers and formula (which is what many liberal historians would like you to believe the 1977 looting in NYC and the Rodney King looting spree in 1992 were all about, even though it wasn't.) should be held accountable.
Chris, your response is a little simplistic. Of course stealing is wrong, but not all looters are people who would normally take anything that is not nailed down.
I was present for the '65 and '92 riots in Los Angeles, and mob psychology caused many people who would not ordinarily steal to join in. In 1965 I was standing outside of a liquor store that was being looted. Many of the neighborhood people who were entering and leaving with an armful of goods (including diapers) felt they were doing nothing wrong because if they didn't take the goods they would be destroyed by fire and urged me to join in (I did not). The same thinking was used with regards to TV's and furniture. The damage and looting was limited to the neighborhoods where the participants lived. In the aftermath of that riot many people with good jobs and no prior criminal history were charged with receiving stolen property.
In 1992, there was little police response to looting, and that fact was widely reported on local TV. This emboldened those who believe it is only wrong if you get caught to rampage accross the city. My impression was that there was less neighborhood involvement in the looting and more groups roving in cars looking for targets of oppurtunity.
"I was present for the '65 and '92 riots in Los Angeles, and mob psychology caused many people who would not ordinarily steal to join in."
As I said, this is more psychological clap-trap from the left-coast liberals to explain away wide spread miscreant behavior in some left-coast communities.
If I recall correctly, the LA riots turned into a "free-for-all" where Blacks, hispanics, whites -- everybody was looting because THEY KNEW THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH IT (law enforcement was overwhelmed). There is a sociological angle there.
It's still wrong by any standards.
Doug aka BMTman
I was specifically referring to the defense strategy postured by the black men accused of nearly killing Reginald Denny with bricks and sticks. The lawyers brought sociologists and anthropologists to prove that black males have less ability to withstand the pressure of mob violence than do their white or hispanic counterparts. I think that the argument is garbage designed to help excuse murderous behavior. If I were a member of that group, I don't think I'd want to be linked to that argument by virtue of my race.
You're right, Train Dude. I even remember that kangeroo court tactic by the denfense attorneys. That was a pathetic ploy.
Doug aka BMTman
>>I was specifically referring to the defense strategy postured by the black men accused of nearly killing Reginald Denny<<<
Don't knock the strategy of the defense attorneys. If I were charged with a crime I would want the attorneys to use whatever they could to get me off.
The real blame belongs to California jurys that buy that kind of hogwash. If you think back it was California which gave us the imfamous "twinkie defense" when the mayor and a supervisor of San Francisco were murdered.
Law enforcement was not overwhelmed in '92. Law enforcement decided to take a holiday. Quick and forceful reaction to the early incidents would have prevented the wide spread looting that took place. Elements of the LAPD higher than the officers on the street were still unhappy over the "police brutality" charges after the Rodney King beating and wanted to avoid any confrontation with citizens.
Well yeah, mob mentality does play a factor. However, it's still wrong and immoral, and shouldn't be excused under any circumstances.
I certainly was not suggesting looting should be excused. Just that not all who participated were what we think of as criminal types. Also I pointed out the differences between the '65 and '92 riots and looting. In '92 it was nore of a criminal element.
During the '92 riots I was standing in the checkout line of a chain store watching a TV monitor showing another location of the same chain with people walking in and out of the broken front windows carrying merchandise. The chain had a sign that said they would match the price if you could find what you wanted at a lower price elsewhere. I did not say anything, but I was sure thinking I was seeing a place where the merchandise was cheaper.
Anyone who loots becomes a "criminal type". Many in NYC in 1977 and LA in 1992 merely stayed home and did not participate. They are the ones who aren't "criminal types".
Yes they were racial & economic. Unfortunately, the white merchants were run out and replaced by minority upstarts. Unfortunately, the minority businessmen who took their place had little in the way of entrepreneurial skills and so the neighborhoods never fully recovered. the results are evident still.
With the verdict handed down earlier this year in Albany, how close did we come to going through it again?
I don't think that speculations of that type serve a useful function. Clearly, in the Albany case, it was allowed to be 4 white police officers who shot one un-armed black civilian. Had it degenerated, as some rabble-rousers had wanted, into white majority vs black minority, the results would have been probably different.
I've always wondered what many parts of Brooklyn and the Bronx were like prior to the blackouts.
Most of the J ride, especially west of Woodhaven, runs through areas with closed businesses and burnt out buildings. It's such a shame that such vibrant communities were destroyed by a mob of insane people.
NYC should've been better prepared. I think the military should have been on order to shoot and kill any looters, and martial law declared in NYC during the outage. If those procedures were taken, than perhaps
many areas that are now run down would still be vibrant downtowns.
Sometimes we have to sacrifice freedom in times of disaster to save the city, unfortunately that's something alot of people in this country still have trouble realizing.
And killing people is something that saves business I'm sure.
[While there was alot of looting during the blackout and people made out like bandits (Fortunoffs on Livonia Av closed down because of it) that wasn't the real reason for the riots. The riots were mostly racial and economic.]
I'm not sure I believe that. Riots that make a point tend to be precipitated by events--a beating by the police, the murder of Martin Luther King. This was I think precipitated by a perception of opportunity.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong !!!!!! Political or social events provide the excuse for lawless people to act out, thinking they've been given a license to loot. Or perhaps you'd like to explain how the looting and burning of Jewish owned shops in Crown Heights was related to a city-wide power outage. Simply another liberal excuse for criminal behavior. Blame society and not the anti-social?
But the Crown Heights riots didn't happen because "lawless people wanted to act out". It was because the black community was pissed that they preceived a lack of concern for the dead (and dying) children who were victims of an unfortunate accident. There would have been NO RIOT had medical attention been given the accident victims had been attended to first and not the automobile driver.
Doug aka BMTman
Again, granted! Then you have the mob that chased Yankel Rosenbaum down (Ralph Avenue ?) yelling, "Kill the Jew!" Which they (specifically Lemrick Nelson)ultimately did. Yankel Rosenbaum was not the driver of the car that killed Gavin Kato. Yankel Rosenbaum was not the ambulance driver. Yankel Rosenbaum was just the victim of mindless mob violence while Gavin Kato was the victim of an accident, albiet under some arrogant circumstances. Thinking men would have seen the difference. The people of Crown Heights saw it as justice. So much so thatwhen Lemrick nelson was arrested with the bloody knife, after being identified by Yankel Rosenbaum before he died, besides other eye witnesses, the good people of Brooklyn saw fit to find Lemrick Guilty.
History: Following the acquittal, Lemrick went to live in Atlanta, where he was involved in another stabbing incident. He was then tried for violating Yankel Rosenbaum's Civil Rights and was convicted. Hopefully he's wearing a really nifty skirk in prison, now.
What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? I really didn't understand what was going on at the time (the OJ trial is what really taught me about the justice system and it's shortcomings).
Same basic principle called 'Jury Nullification'. The jury makes its decission based not on the evidence but as a means to right a perceived injustice. This was evident in the OJ case where the jury disregarded tons of evidence because they perceived Mark Fuhrman as a arcist. In the Lemrick Nelson case, it was a bit more incideous than that, however. You also had the David Dinkins machine working the community hard for the acquittal.
[What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? I really didn't understand what was going on at the time (the OJ trial is what really taught me about the justice system and it's shortcomings).]
Never underestimate the ignorance of juries. I sometimes think that being seated on a jury causes the typical person's I.Q. score to drop 15 points.
And how much of an IQ drop did New Yorkers suffer when they elected that incompetent moron "Dinky" Dinkins as Mayor of New York? It sure had to be more than 15 points.
[And how much of an IQ drop did New Yorkers suffer when they elected that incompetent moron "Dinky" Dinkins as Mayor of New York? It sure had to be more than 15 points.]
That's for sure. I'd explain the results by saying that only people with low I.Q. scores voted for Dinky, but that doesn't explain his support on the Upper West Side. People in that area may be naive and unsophisticated, utterly devoid of common sense, but they're not stupid in I.Q. terms.
[That's for sure. I'd explain the results by saying that only people with low I.Q. scores voted for Dinky, but that doesn't explain his support on the Upper West Side. People in that area may be naive and unsophisticated, utterly devoid of common sense, but they're not stupid in I.Q. terms.]
Without reopening the question of whether those people are naive and unsophisticated, they voted for Dinkins because he was black and they thought it was the right thing to do.
>>>>What foolishness caused Nelson to be acquitted? <<<
Jury nullification. In fact, Lemrick Nelson and some jury members celebrated after the verdict was tendered.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And maybe, if justice is fully served, when he gets out someone or some people will give him, what we termed in the army, a blanket party and make it possisble that he'll never have to use his arms and hands again.
Not to open an old wound, but Crown Heights was a race riot, where black people (mostly outsiders from the neighborhood) killed and assaulted Jews and looted/destroyed their property. I don't care if Gavin Cato was deliberatley run over by a Jew driving a car (which he wasn't), it was inexcusable and unjustified.
You are right, but fair is fair. What did you call it when a bunch of white thugs killed a black youngster in Bensonhurst just because he was in the company of a white girl. Who dates who is the business of the two people involved and none of anybody else's business. If I was single and wanted to date a black lady, that would be my choice and no one should make any objection of it. You see, racism comes in all shapes and sizes, and, unfortunately, colors.
[Wrong, Wrong, Wrong !!!!!! Political or social events provide the excuse for lawless people to act out, thinking they've been given a license to loot. Or perhaps you'd like to explain how the looting and burning of Jewish owned shops in Crown Heights was related to a city-wide power outage. Simply another liberal excuse for criminal behavior. Blame society and not the anti-social?]
You're responding to the message I quoted; I was arguing with it, not agreeing with it. As it happens, I agree with you up to a point; I think the Crown Heights riots were opportunistic looting pure and simple, but I think society's misguided policies have to take part of the blame for the anti-social attitudes that led to it.
Thank you Mayor Lindsay. Remember Fun City? sometimes I wonder if that was his idea of fun? It helped push me out of there but I'm thankful that somebody turned the city around , I feel safe every time I visit and hope it never goes back to what it was.
I wonder if things would have been any different if Lindsay hadn't been elected. Would the unions not have gone on strike? Would Rockefeller not have illegally given the sanitation workers everything they wanted, while Lindsay wanted to hang tough? And while Lindsay increased the City's social benefits, he effectively bought our way out of the riots that hit other cities at the time.
Conversely, what would have happened if Giuliani had been mayor then? People yap enough about him as it is, in spite of his obviously wonderful record. I remember a time when it was considered bad form to suggest that welfare recipients "sweep the streets," and people who said subway graffitti was art! Those attitudes are still around--for me, the final straw with the Dinkins administration was when a spokesmen defended the right of bums to piss on the street in Greenwich Village--but at least they're no longer the majority view.
(I wonder if things would have been any different if Lindsay hadn't been elected. Conversely, what would have happened if Giuliani had been mayor then?)
At a recent forum on whether or not Lindsay was the worst Mayor in history, Lindsay-era bureaucrats claimed that the critic had the benefit of hindsight, and of not having to deal with the social convulsions of the time. I know now what should have been done then. Can't claim for sure that I'd have known it then, however.
Would Giuliani have been Giuliani if he had been elected then? He grew up after the civil rights revolution, in a place and time where respect for diversity and racial tolerance are the politically accepted point of view. Given his tendencies despite this, what would Giuliani be like if he had grown up in the 1920s and was faced with the events of the 1960s?
[At a recent forum on whether or not Lindsay was the worst Mayor in history, Lindsay-era bureaucrats claimed that the critic had the benefit of hindsight, and of not having to deal with the social convulsions of the time. I know now what should have been done then. Can't claim for sure that I'd have known it then, however.
Would Giuliani have been Giuliani if he had been elected then? He grew up after the civil rights revolution, in a place and time where respect for diversity and racial tolerance are the politically accepted point of view. Given his tendencies despite this, what would Giuliani be like if he had grown up in the 1920s and was faced with the events of the 1960s?]
Interesting question. I suspect he'd be much as he is now--just in the minority. But who knows--my own views have certainly changed radically since that time, though I must admit that free love was kinda nice
Josh: I know where you are coming from. I used to be a died in the wool liberal Democrat. I am definately not any of that today. We all change----hopefully the character part changes for the better whatever our politics happen to be. That's why I love this website. The philosophies run the gamut, yet we are wildly in love withthe New York Subway System and that brings out the kid in all of us. I think that is a terrific combinantion. What do you other guys and ladies think of that?
I'd say that pretty much says it! It does something to the political discussion--somehow makes it more--what?--real and less partisan? I find myself having more questions than answers.
I'd say that pretty much says it. It does something to the political discussion--somehow makes it more--what?--real and less partisan? I find myself having more questions than I think I have answers, something that's not typical for the male of the species.
That 1977 blackout occurred one day, literally, after I flew out of JFK for Switzerland. We read about it in one of the English papers in Zurich. We still have a copy of Time magazine which featured the blackout as the cover story.
Any way of posting part of the headlines or scanning pictures?
C'mon Borg, don't rely on the internet for all your information. Go to the local library and look up the contemprary reports from the magazines and newspapers. You will find them facinating.
And if you want to learn about the biggest riots in the country, check out the '64 NYC draft riots in library's old copies of the New York Times (Try Aug. 13, 1864)
What date was the Magazine? Don't tell me Sunday, that'll be even less useful as telling me it was written in 1977.
That WAS the summer from HELL!
Blackout, Son of Sam murders, city on the brink of financial chaos...it wasn't your ordinary summer, to put it mildly.
However, the subways were only affected by the power-outage.
If you get to see the "Summer of Sam" movie by Spike Lee, look for my old Dodge Dart (bronze colored). It got 20 seconds of fame in one scene where SOS goes and shoots two women in front of a building vestibule. I thought the movie lacked a focus, but the performances were good.
BTW, there were a few scenes in the Bronx neighborhood where an early '70's fishbowl is used (white w'blue stripe).
Doug aka BMTman
How long was the power out and how did this affect passengers stranded on the system?
2 days. A wicked thunderstorm precipitated the blackout, and the lights went out around 9 PM at night. The next day passed entirely without electricity, and service was restored sometime the next afternoon. Unlike the 65 blackout, which lasted about 5 hours.
I remember also that 1977 was the year that "Saturday Night Fever" hit the screen to rave reviews. It was at the height of the Disco craze that crashed by the end of 1978. Of course, it was also the year of "Star Wars". That was one hell of a flick.
There were no thunderstorm by the time NYC went Blackout after 9pm in July,77 & restored next afternoon around 4pm i think. I was outside playing with my cousins in the little park at Allen St when the whole city went blackout & we couldn't get home because i used to live in project at spanish harlem so we went to stay at my grandmother's house until the next day. Boy it was worse blackout i ever seen. At that time i was only 7 years old.
Peace Out
David Justininao
NYCTransiTrans Gallery PageUPDATED!!!!!!!
Anybody have any pictures or footage of this?
To answer some questions:
There are a few Bronx-based organizations such as The Mid-Bronx Desperadoes, SEBCO, and most well known, Banana Kelly. Banana Kelly has programs which teach basic reading and writing skills as well as other business skills. Banana Kelly has programs in just about anything you could think of. If you want, I'll send you a few links to some sites on this.
Second question...I have recent photos of the South Bronx which were taken in 1999 and this year. I know of a few sites which have pictures. Again, e-mail me about this and I can send you links to sites you'd be interested it. There is one great source of information they many of you I think would enjoy. It's a book called "The New American Ghetto" by Camilo Jose Vergara, a Chilean-born sociologist. This book has pictures as well as quotes and narratives about the experiences Vergara had while visting places such as the South Bronx, Detroit, & Newark, NJ. It's a really great book filled with great pictures. I have a great respect for that man.
I'm not taking shots at anyone, but for people like Chris R16 and Peter Rosa who have these misconceptions and biased views on such issues as graffiti and the intelligence of so-called "ghetto dwellers" sand the under class, this book would be a great source of educational material for you. Maybe you'd finally begin to understand why people act certain ways and become enlightened. Wouldn't it better and less annoying when the statements you sometimes make have validity behind them? In any case, this is truly a great book. Pick it up at the Sociology section of your neighborhood bookstore.
As always, my we-mail address is Nordica@aol.com if you have questions or want additional information on such topics.
....noted UFO investigator Allen J. Hynek (USAF Project Bluebook) mentioned that something besides a thunderstorm was involved in that blackout. Con Ed and NY Power Authority knew more than they were telling when they claimed the blackout, "an act of God". Read some of Hynek's work on this subject. Very interesting, even if you're a skeptic like me.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>Con Ed and NY Power Authority knew more than they were
telling when they claimed the blackout, "an act of God".<<<
So the Cigarette Smoking Man, Hillary Clinton or Vince McMahon were involved maybe?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Exactly....;-)
There most definatly was a thunderstorm that night, as I remember it clearly, because at that time thunder scared the !@#$% out of me. The cause of the blackout was a lightning strike hitting a crucial transformer, overloading the entire grid.
I've got to find that copy of Time magazine. It's in the garage somewhere. The cover photo was one of a looting scene.
How did the Queens Blackout of 1996, which affected eastern Queens affect subway service? Were the Queens Blvd IND and number 7 train knocked out? Does the LIRR get power from ConEd's grid in NYC?
I remember reading how a transmission line (the one that runs along the Babylon branch to Jamaica) supplied power for a 6 minute period to eastern Queens before the transformer buckled and LILCO had to cut the power off to ConEd. I'm still amazed at how those old transmission lines are still used, and how they handled such a load, even for such a short time.
I'm suprised there aren't anymore of these lines between Long Island and NYC, for those times when ConEd is short.
I still think NYC is a big risk for blackouts during severe heatwaves because of the lack of transmission cable and plants in NYC. That old abandoned power plant in L.I.C. by the LIRR Sunnyside yard should be brought back, many of the electrical towers are still standing.
It may be strange, but there's some sort of elegance about these metal frame electrical towers, especially in old pictures I've seen.
I assume in the subway all trains are automatically stopped when power fails, but what about the LIRR? Can they "coast" the train into the next station?
Actually, all trains can coast with the power off, the emergency brake (which I think is the only way to stop without power, the regular service brake needs power) will not automatically apply.
The Long Island Lighting Company is no longer. The power lines are owned by the Long Island Power Authority, a state agency and the plants are owned by the Keyspan Energy Group.
When the A train travels over the former LIRR Rockaway Line, its draws power NOT from Con Ed, but from the Long Island Lighting Company (aka LILCO). I believe the neighborhoods in Far Rock and the rest of the Rockaway Peninsula also is grided LILCO.
Doug aka BMTman
Oops! I meant LIPA.
BTW, there are deals afoot at a possible future merger of Con Ed and Keyspan (the new official name of the Brooklyn Union Gas Co.). I'm sure this will mean more confusion in paying our already confusing utility bills.
Doug aka BMTman
With energy de-regulation coming, allowing you to choose your electrical supplier, confusion will abound ...
You ain't just kidding. The unofficial word from many employees of BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric Co's marketing name)is to wait at least a year or more before doing anything.
The people at PNJ (our regional power grid manager association) are worried that much of the national power tranmission system will not be able to handle large-scale power shipments across the country. That's gonna happen when people and companies in Baltimore (or New York) start buying electricity from a supplier in Washington (state). That power will have to travel from there to here - that's across the country - all because they can get it for .02 cents per KW than from the local company. And, since all the local companies (like BGE or ConEd) are regulated, you can bet the "transmission charge") - what the local company charges to get that Pacific power to you - will be structured by the regulatory body so that the company doesn't lose its regulated income.
It's gonna get real interesting - will the lights stay on? the trains run? Wait and see.
I noticed alot of overhead wires in the Rockaways and plenty of the familiar sub-transmission lines, with some metal frame ones west of Hammels wye. I wonder why the Rockaways get their power from LI Power authority (formerly LILCO).
One things for sure, it felt more like Long Island when I was there, and I could get all the LI Radio stations in better than where I currently live (Northern Nassau county).
I'm sure storms are brutal down there. Do they frequently knock out A Rockaway service?
Broad Channel appears to get power from ConEd, a noticable line of subtransmission lines runs south along Cross Bay Blvd toward Broad Channel.
I wonder where I can find info on blackouts in NYC. I find it quite interesting. NYC has too few power plants and relies too much on outside sources, a line of transmission lines coming down from Westchester. '77 could happen again, all it takes is a record hot day and severe thunderstorms to the north knocking out those lines. With only 1 feed from LI, NYC is a blackout waiting to happen. They need to build new power plants. I can't understand how there can be opposition to the recent plant construction in Queens. It's amazing how a whole city's power grid can be at risk all because of a few NIMBY's.
If there was a city blackout today, the subways would be such a mess, many more people ride today than in '77, and could riots once again occur? NYC can't afford to have a blackout. If NIMBY's get in the way they should be arrested.
See how NIMBY's put my area at risk,
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
Not only is it easier to build from Nassau, with a wide overland connection as opposed to bridging the Jamaica Bay, but the Rockaways used to be part of Hempstead.
I was living on Hillside Avenue between 260th and 261st Street on July 13, 1977, about ten blocks inside the Queens Line. There appeared to be thunder and lightning well north of our place; perhaps out over Long Island Sound or even further north. In any event, we never experienced a thunderstorm in our neighborhood proper.
At 9:29 PM, the lights went out. At first I thought it was just our building but I took a look out the front door and Hillside Avenue was dark. It was dark as far west as I could see. I could see light east at the City Line, LILCO (LIPA) territory. But everything else was dark.
Rosemary and I locked up the house and went round to my in-laws over on 262nd Street (right opposite one of Son of Sam's crime scenes) and stayed there a while. Rosemary stayed with them and I went home about midnight. About 3:40AM the following morning (July 14), the lights came on again, but at 3:54AM they went out again, and did not come back on until well later in the day. I picked Rosemary up and we went to work (we were working in the same company at the time), when we got back home, the lights were on but the fridge had melted down and our food was ruined.
We saw the riots on TV; they were at their most intense late in the afternoon of July 14th along Broadway in Brooklyn, from Flushing Avenue to Eastern Parkway. Many fine old buildings were destroyed. An entire block of three-story frame houses was put to the torch on Greene Avenue between Central and Evergreen Avenues, in the residential heart of Bushwick. There was one particularly intense fire going at the head of Stone Avenue (Mother Gaston Boulevard), right near the Broadway-East New York/Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction station complex, between Hull and Somers Streets. Other neighborhoods that were hard hit were Utica Avenue south of Eastern Parkway, and some of the side streets either side of Grand Concourse in the Bronx reported fires and burning.
wayne
I was living in Woodhaven on that night and there definatly was an intense thunderstrom which flooded our basement, right before the lights went out.
I'm sure there was - summer thunderstorms are notorious for hitting hard in one place and missing another not far away. Woodhaven is about 8 miles as the crow files from Floral Park. We saw and heard lots of thunder and lightning but got nothing.
wayne
Wow great story. Has anybody else gone through it as well. I'd love to speak to you about the experience.
You will get an earful if you come down for June 17. Drop me an e-mail and we'll get this arranged.
wayne
My experience was in the rear view mirror. My family had just been driven out of the Northeast by the deep depression of the mid-1970s, after my father had been unemployed nearly a year.
We were living in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which was booming. The national TV coverage showed New York in ruins, with the rioting and burning interspersed with piles of garbage and graffitti. When people though the city was heading down the tubes in the early 1990s, I pointed out that if it could come back from 1977 it could come back from anything.
BTW, in the confusion I'm sure a few landlords torched buildings which has lost their sales value to get the insurance. I've heard this process called "private sector urban renewal."
Could it happen again? Because of a shortage of distribution capacity, the northeast is a "power pocket," and New York City is a "power pocket" within it. There are just a few major transmission lines in. Lots of power plants are on the drawing board; none are built. Another hot summer and who knows?
[Because of a shortage of distribution capacity, the northeast is a "power pocket," and New York City is a "power pocket" within it. There are just a few major transmission lines in. Lots of power plants are on the drawing board; none are built. Another hot summer and who knows?]
Larry, I don't worry about such things. Power shortage: no problem -- I merely put four hamsters on the treadmill instead of the usual two.
The stationery bicycle is also a trusty opton. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Add to that, no one is allowed in heypaul's motorman's cab under those circumstances.:-)
Funny but I missed the whole blackout. At the time of the 'great' blackout, we lived in Starrett (Stalag) City which has it's own electric power generation plant. It's amazing how misfortune can so rapidly turn to an advantage.
Both Starret City and it's sister complex, CO-OP City in The Bronx have their own electric generating systems. Also, Kings Plaza Shopping Center in Mill Basin has a similar set-up.
Doug aka BMTman
What borough is Starrett City in? I never heard of it before.
Starret City is in Brooklyn. Some people claim Starret City is located in the Canarsie section. In reality it is in an area known as Spring Creek (a relatively new designation). This neighborhood is adjacent to City Line (Queens is just over the border at Conduit Ave.).
It's main street is Pennsylvania Ave. The complex is situated between Flatlands Ave. to the north and The Belt Parkway to the south.
Doug aka BMTman
hey gang, looking for any other info on the riots looting and urban destruction during the blackout of 77
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Starrett City is in Brooklyn
BMTJeff
Don't post redundant messages.
Go ahead BMT Jeff. I give you permission to post as many redundant messages as you want, as a matter of fact, do it in all caps!!!
I guess I wasted more bandwidth by posting the response, and therefore causing you to post a response and then this response.
Why should someone post a response to something that has already been answered, and add nothing?
All caps are annoying, it's not just a minor infraction, it's something that newcomers to AOL do until they know better. Someone has to tell them to stop. People who don't like to have errors pointed out are just those who have enough of their own errors. I don't mind being pointed out my errors, how would I learn from them?
Starret City is in Brooklyn. Ever heard of Starrett @ Spring Creek ? It's near Pennsylvania Ave. and Flatlands. It's basically East New York for what it's worth.
If you want to describe it as East New York, it would be more accurate to describe it as the Greater East New York area. This would include Brownsville, Ocean Hill, New Lots, Cypress Hills, Highland Park and City Line.
Not to mention Starett City and East New York proper.
Were the Rockaways affected by the blackout? I know they get power from Long Island, was LI involved?
It depends which blackout. The 1977 one was mostly just the city. Even though the Rockaways are in the city they were serviced by LILCO (now LIPA) and had power. The blackout in the 60's was the whole East Coast including of course Long Island. Although if my memory serves me correct Staten Is for some strange reason had power.
as i remember, satan's island did have power... i think at the time they had a small co-generation plant at the landfill that supplied about 25kw, which at the time was more than enough to power the island...
I think they had power because the power plant technician disconnected the plant from the main grid in time. The plant provided enough power for Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn (including Coney Island).
I wonder what they'd do if a train got stuck in an under-river tube in a blackout. I suppose they'd have to walk everybody out of the train, single file. What did they do in the '65 and '77 blackouts?
Also did places like Flushing and Chinatown escape the riots and looting in the '77 blackout?
Also in the 65 black out, 9 months later had more births in the United States then any week in the history of the USA Records, I think 2.7 million
Yes, and that fact wasn't glossed over in the movie, Where Were You When the Lights Went Out?
(Also in the 65 black out, 9 months later had more births in the United States then any week in the history of the USA Records,
I think 2.7 million ).
1965: Make love, not war.
1977: F..k this, I'm getting paid!
Clearly, in each case the darkness, disruption and chaos made people cast off their inhibitions and do things, including selfish and shortsighted things, they ordinarily would not do.
For the first time in a long time, we head into a summer with rising fuel prices and talk of power shortages. I wonder what people would do if there were a blackout today?
[For the first time in a long time, we head into a summer with rising fuel prices and talk of power shortages. I wonder what people would do if there were a blackout today?]
The NYPD surely has carefully drawn-up plans to deal with a blackout, as was shown last year in Washington Heights. Slow police response to the first outbreaks of looting and vandalism allowed the 1977 riots to mushroom out of control. I doubt we'd see the same mistake again.
I was a member of the National Guard in 1965 and the Watts Riots were not a walk in the park. It's scary when angry people who feel maligned and ignored go onthe warpath. So I can guess how you New Yorkers feel about that "Summer of Sam". But that movie still bugs me. Spike Lee does a disservice to African-Americans when he portrays them in unflattering terms in "Do the Right Thing", but when he disparages Italian-Americans in the Sam movie, he really hits home and pisses me off no end.
Fred, unfortunatly what happened in Howard Beach and Bensonhurst to Blacks was done by Italians. Also Italians do get kind of rough when it comes to street justice to non Italians and themself.
Bob--you are right to a point. Howard Beach and Bensonhurst were the workings of a bunch of ignoramouses, but they do not epitomize the vast majority of Italian-Americans who are ashamed of such doings. But take a good look at the movie, was even one Italian-American portrayed in a favorable light? That's my problem with Spike Lee.
Bob--you are right to a point. Howard Beach and Bensonhurst were the workings of a bunch of ignoramuses, but they do not epitomize the vast majority of Italian-Americans who are ashamed of such doings. But take a good look at the movie, was even one Italian-American portrayed in a favorable light? That's my problem with Spike Lee.
BTW, Spike Lee treats most of his subjects, blacks, Jews, Italians in broad stereotypes (look at Sal and his sons in the Pizzaria, or the Bed-Sty "street characters" in "Do The Right Thing"). If you didn't know Lee was black, it would be hard to tell the ethnicity of the filmmaker. I think that's part of his appeal.
I read a bio on Spike Lee and it turned out that he spent his younger years in the Boreum Hill/Carroll Gardens section which was (and still is) a heavily Italian neighborhood. He mentioned that alot of his Italian-American characters are based on people he knew from his old 'hood.
IMHO his Spike Lee's best movies are "Malcolm X," "Clockers", and "He Got Game" which was shot almost entirely in Coney Island. BTW, in "Clockers," Lionel trains figured prominently in a subplot of the movie.
One annoyingly distracting problem with "Summer of Sam" was that John Legiuzamo (sp?) sounded like a Puerto Rican playing an Italian, which indeed was the case! It was almost to the point of being campy.
Doug aka BMTman
John Leguizamo is Colombian, just for the record.
You're kidding, right? I thought he said he's Puerto Rican? Didn't he mention that in his HBO Special? (Maybe he's HALF-Puerto Rican????)
BTW, good to see ya back at SubTalk!
Doug aka BMTman
Well, I think he's half-Puerto Rican but he was born in Colombia and grew up in Queens (Jackson Heights or Corona, I think...a Colombian part. He looks Colombian. He definitely isn't Italian, that I can be sure of. LOL
Frankly, it doesn't bother me if the person playing an Italian is really Italian or not. Andy Garcia looks a hell of a lot more Italian than I do, and Jews in the past have portrayed Italians is movies.( Remember Edward G. Robinson in Little Ceasar?) I just don't like it when the whole lot of us are all portrayed as a bunch of intolerant and dumb thugs. That is sterotyping to the nth degree. In all movies, there should be people of a portrayed group that can be differentiated from the others. When others see people portrayed in a negative light, there are some who accept those characters as fact.
Frankly, it doesn't bother me if the person playing an Italian is really Italian or not. Andy Garcia looks a hell of a lot more Italian than I do, and Jews in the past have portrayed Italians in movies.( Remember Edward G. Robinson in Little Ceasar?) I just don't like it when the whole lot of us are all portrayed as a bunch of intolerant and dumb thugs. That is sterotyping to the nth degree. In all movies, there should be people of a portrayed group that can be differentiated from the others. When others see people portrayed in a negative light, there are some who accept those characters as fact.
"The NYPD surely has carefully drawn-up plans to deal with a blackout, as was shown last year in Washington Heights. Slow police response to the first outbreaks of looting and vandalism allowed the 1977 riots to mushroom out of control. I doubt we'd see the same mistake again."
I seriously doubt it as well.
However, consider the parallels between the present position of the NYPD and that of the LAPD just before the 1992 riots. Partly out of fear of more excessive-force allegations, but also partly as a police strike ("The media and political figures revile us, and the people spit at us, so why should we risk our necks to protect them? When they telephone the police in a panic and nobody shows up, see how they like it!"), the LAPD just pulled out of minority neighborhoods at the first hint of trouble and didn't answer 911 calls henceforth.
Admittedly, the animus against the NYPD isn't as strong as that against the LAPD, and it isn't focused on a particular event like Rodney King. Also, Guiliani's concept of law enforcement is to stop big problems while they are still small problems, and he would react very negatively to even an appearance that the police were stepping aside and doing nothing. This is very different from the attitude of L.A.'s civil government in 1992, which seemed to agree with the sentiment that a police presence in bad neighborhoods directly after the announcement of the verdict would be a lightning rod for public response, inciting rather than supressing violence. Even a Democratic mayor of N.Y.C. could not spout the mushy "they're just misunderstood" rhetoric of 10 or 20 years ago.
Therefore, a 1992-style police sit-out is unlikely, but certainly not outside the realm of possibility unless relations between the police and the public improve (and from both sides, I might add).
[re NYPD's response to a blackout-induced riot]
[However, consider the parallels between the present position of the NYPD and that of the LAPD just before the 1992 riots. Partly out of fear of more excessive-force allegations, but also partly as a police strike ("The media and political figures revile us, and the people spit at us, so why should we risk our necks to protect them? When they telephone the police in a panic and nobody shows up, see how they like it!"), the LAPD just pulled out of minority neighborhoods at the first hint of trouble and didn't answer 911 calls henceforth.]
That may have been true to some extent, but it had been my impression that the LAPD hadn't been anticipating major disturbances - just like the NYPD in 1977 - and therefore found itself (or perceived itself to be) outmanned and outgunned in much of South Central when violence erupted. Units on the scene decided to retreat and regroup rather than make an immediate show of force. That tactic, of course, proved disastrous, especially to white or Hispanic motorists caught at intersections, but this might be a case of Monday morning quaterbacking. Whether the LAPD would have pulled out if it weren't for the sense of spite you noted probably can't be answered definitively, but based on what I saw and read I don't doubt that it might have happened. Huge angry mobs seemed to materialize out of nowhere, and even the most levelheaded cops probably feared they'd be in a Custer's Last Stand situation.
[Even a Democratic mayor of N.Y.C. could not spout the mushy "they're just misunderstood" rhetoric of 10 or 20 years ago.]
I wouldn't put it past Mark Green.
Miami seemed ready a couple of weeks back with the Elian Gonzalez situation.
>>>> Whether the LAPD would have pulled out if it weren't for the sense of spite you noted probably can't be answered definitively <<<<<
For anyone who saw the '65 L.A. riots or spoke with some of the patrol officers in '92 it can be answered definitively. In 1965 with no advance warning of any possible disturbances, the police were on the streets trying to contain the disturbances. At some places they faced overwhelming odds and were driven back, but at least they were there trying to keep order.
In 1992 all of L.A. knew that if there were not guilty verdicts in Simi Valley there would be disturbances. When rock throwing started at Florence & Normandie about 4:00 P.M., news helicopters were circling overhead showing what was happening with NO attempt by the police to stop it. If a large force had appeared there within an hour of the start of the news coverage, much less total damage would have been done over the next three days. No one came. Individual officers watching what was happening on TV at the local station wanted to respond but were told not to. The police chief decided to attend a political function that evening.
Those watching TV who were inclined to violence saw after two hours there were still no police anywhere to be seen. After that there were outbreaks of violence all over the city.
If Mark Green become Mayor of New York, all the progress of the past eight years goes by the boards. I saw him on two talk shows last week. He is ridiculous to the extreme and makes mountains out of mole hills. He's the kind of person who can make a bad situation worse in 20 seconds. It is incongruous to believe he could be New York's next mayor.
[If Mark Green become Mayor of New York, all the progress of the past eight years goes by the boards. I saw him on two talk shows last week. He is ridiculous to the extreme and makes mountains out of mole hills. He's the kind of person who can make a bad situation worse in 20 seconds. It is incongruous to believe he could be New York's next mayor.]
It is a horrible thought. Green is your prototypical guilt-ridden, out-of-touch-with-reality Upper West Side limousine liberal, less sophisticated than a high-school dropout trailer camp resident in Appalachia. He embodies the sort of attitudes that most people in the country rejected with the end of the hippie era.
Washington Heights last year was an isolated part of the metro-area. This is why there was such a great and strong police presence. if we have another 1977, will the NYPD have enough personel to cover all 5 boroughs as well as they did in upper Manhattan. I doutb it!
It does not say much about mankind that we might not have enough self dicipline to do the right thing under extrordinary circumstances.It proves we need big brother A.K.A the police presence to keep us in line.Yes I know it is only a hand full of the population, but That's all is takes to get the ball rolling..
Man your a strange animal!
[Washington Heights last year was an isolated part of the metro-area. This is why there was such a great and strong police presence. if we have another 1977, will the NYPD have enough personel to cover all 5 boroughs as well as they did in upper Manhattan. I doutb it!]
It may very well be that Washington Heights would have been peaceful even if it weren't for the big police presence. It took a while to get the police deployed in the area, time enough for trouble to have started, but none did. And even afterward, it's far from certain that the police presence would have been a surefire deterrent had enough residents decided to go on a "shopping" spree. Obviously, I'm not saying that the NYPD had nothing to do with the lack of trouble, or that they shouldn't be ready to act if there's another major blackout. They probably should be ready, in that situation, to concentrate their forces in the most violence-prone areas ... and it's a reasonable bet that the Intelligence Division knows where those areas are.
All in all, I'd say that the lack of trouble in Washington Heights last summer is at least in part a tribute to the character of the area's residents. There might indeed be something to the theory that Dominicans can take blackouts in stride - even if that thought causes BX55 to get her knickers in a twist :-)
Wouldn't want her knickers in a twist, that could be ugly!!
Now I remember Pete. I believe it was you that first got into a set-to with BX55, and I jumped in with all fours and got BX55 mad
at me. I think there were four of us that were in a tangle with her. BTW, I finally extricated myself and am back in her good graces. Getting her knickers in a twist? Yikes, that might be a call to arms by her. Be careful, we don;t need any more rivalries spring up here.
>>>>> This is very different from the attitude of L.A.'s civil government in 1992, which seemed to agree with the sentiment that a police presence in bad neighborhoods <<<<<<
Don't knock the civil government. Due to the political corruption of the ‘30s and ‘40s (Think of the movies "Chinatown" and "L.A. Confidential") The reformers separated the police department from the rest of city government. Once a chief was appointed he became as independent as a Federal judge. By 1992, the police chief had his own constituency and answered to no one in city government. The mayor and the chief were not even on speaking terms.
Because of this situation, to provide more control by elected officials, the law was finally changed to limit the police chief to one five year term and one possible five year extension.
I know that there were trains in the under-river subway tubes in 1965 and I assume there were also in 1977. I don't know how they were evacuated though.
Were there any trains in the Penn Station tubes?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll tell you what my Dad did on November 9, 1965 - he had gotten on the "TT" train at Court Street (an R27/30 with coral seats according to him) en route to Broad Street to change for the #15 to Jamaica. He got partway to Manhattan when everything went black and the train stopped short. He told me he sat there for an hour or so and then emergency workers with flashlights led the entire "TT" train's passengers back to Court Street via catwalk. He exited the subway there and began a long and eerie walk from Court and Montague Streets to my Grandmother's apartment at Dorchester Road and East 21st Street, about four miles away. He walked to Scbermerhorn Street and so on to Flatbush Avenue and down, down, down the avenue to the south end of Prospect Park. He then turned off onto Ocean Avenue and so down to Dorchester Road.
Out where Mom and I were in Elmont, Mom was just about to take dinner up. It was just about twilight, not quite dark. 5:27PM and all the lights went out. We ate by the light of the stove and pretty soon all the neighbors were out and about, stopping in and out of the house. One had a transistor radio and we listened to the news by it. We got our lights on just before 12PM. The phone was out and Dad couldn't get through to us until way later. There were quite a few stories to tell in school the next day - there was no hot lunch for a few days as all the fridges melted down and the food spoiled.
wayne
I assume he was stuck in the Montague St tubes. Must be a scary walk in the dark in those tunnels, with the rats and all.
How long did it take to walk from the stuck train to Court street?
I'd be afraid to be in NYC when there was a blackout, with no lights and no way home. I guess I'd have to walk to Flushing and then get the N21 (if LI aint affected). I wonder how long of a walk it is from 42nd street to Main street? Must take all day.
I heard PATH switched to NJ power in the 1977 blackout and was able to run. Too bad LIRR and MNRR don't have alternative sources of power if ConEd fails. The MTA really should have alternative sources for power. If there was a city-wide blackout today, the chaos would be terrible as everybody tries to get out with no trains.
Wasn't this just after New York had gotten the derisive nickname, Fun City? That blackout and '77 riot doesn't sound like much fun to me. New York is a lot better now from my point of view. Things looked great to me when I was there last summer------great except for the stations on the Sea Beach line. Come on TA, let's start refurbishing them.
Fun City wasn't derisive at it was applied during the Lindsay Administration (1966-1973).
Are you sure Co-Op City and Starret City are sister complexes? Co-Op City is a Co-Op while Starret City is rentals. I think Co-Op City's sister complex is Rochdale Village in Queens on the site of the old Jamaica Racetrack. Although I might be wrong.
By the way, at the time of both blackouts my grandmother lived in the Warbasse Houses in the white building right next to the Van Siclen "F" Train station (or "D" train during the first blackout-pre Chrystie) and they had their own generators so they had electricity the whole time.
I know that Coney Island still had power, but that doesn't mean that Warbasse doesn't have their own generator. It doesn't prove anything either way.
Now that I pointed that out, does this annoy you?
...some say a thunderstorm had nothing to do with it....others say that strange aerial phenomena could have been involved...
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, I've heard this. However, those of us who don't sniff glue tend to disreguard some of the wilder theories.
Yep, it sure was a summer of hell, capped off by the shutdown of the Jamaica Ave. el east of Queens Blvd. in September. Not exactly on par with the riots and killings, but to me, as a 5 year old, the most hellesh even of that year.
What made it even worse was that the Yankees won their first World Series in 15 years. It was also recorded as the hottest summer of the decade. My wife was ill with an undiagnosed malady that suddenly cleared up late in summer. Fortunately, she has ben well since. For me, it wasn't a bad summer at all. My Babe Ruth All Star Team won the 16-18 World Series in Owensboro, KY. Some New York team from Suffolk County had the audacity to try and spoil it for us, but we trashed them 9-0. When it comes to amateur baseball, there is no place like California.
A while back I asked you to help me determine when various types of subway cars went out of service and what lines they last ran on. I got great feedback from you, but there are still quite a few missing. I thought it would be the older cars that would be hard to find, but instead it is tne R's that I received no information on.
Here is the list I have received so far. Help fill in the blanks or make corrections.
Manhattan El Cars:
IRT Composites:
Hi-V Cars:..........................1958
Low-V Cars:.........................1969.......3rd Ave El (Bronx)
World's Fair Low-V Cars:........Oct 1964
BMT Q-Type El Cars:.............Oct 1969.......Myrtle
BMT C-Type El Cars:
BMT Gate El Cars ( 200, 600, 900, 1200 & 1400s):
....................................1950.......Lexington Ave(Brklyn)
BMT Gate El Cars (1300s):...........1958.......Myrtle
BMT B-Type Standards:...........Aug 1969.......Culver Shuttle, JJ/KK
BMT D-Type Triplex:.............Jul 1965.......T
BMT Multisectional Trains:..........1961
R1:
R4:
R6:
R7:.............................Mar 1977.......J
R9:
R10:............................Jun 1989.......C
R11:
R12:............................Sep 1981.......Various IRT lines
R14:............................Nov 1984.......#3, #5
R15:............................Nov 1984.......#3, #5
R16:............................May 1987.......M
R17:............................Feb 1988.......#5, TS shuttle
R21:............................Oct 1987.......#5, #3, #6
R22:............................Oct 1987.......#5, #3, #6
R26:
R27:
R28:
R29:
R30:............................Jan 1993.......C
R32:
R33:
R34:
R36:
World's Fair Lo-Vs -- 1969 or 1970, Third Avenue El
R-26, 28, 29, 32, 33/33S, 36 -- still in service
R-11/34 -- 1976
1969 for the World's Fair Lo-Vs. Ditto for Steinway Lo-Vs. Both ran on the 3rd Ave. el at the end.
The R-9s share the same final day as the R-7s: March 31, 1977 on the J. That said, the R-1/9s are generally lumped together as a family, since they could and did all intermix with one another. It's safe to say they were retired in the same sequence as they were delivered; i. e., the R-1s were phased out first, followed by the R-4s, etc.
The last of the BMT C-types were most likely withdrawn in 1956 at the latest, when the IND was extended to Lefferts Blvd. over the Dual Contracts portion of the Fulton St. el.
While I don't have a date handy, it stands to reason the R-27s were retired once the R-68s had been delivered.
Steve,
Thanks for your input. I notice that the R-27 is a small order made at the same time that the R-26 and R-28 about 1960. Dave has indicated that both the R-26 and R-28 are still in service. Could the R-27 still be in service?
>>>>the R-1s were phased out first, followed by the R-4s, etc. <<<<
This makes sense, but what I am trying to find out the final years and lines for each. I've seen in the Rolling Stock portion of the web site R-1's dated in 1969 and a fan trip dated in 1971. Would a fan trip indicate that the type is no longer in service? Or might that be the time the type is being removed from service?
There are similar pictures for R-4's and R-6's with dates in the early '70s.
The R-27s could be in service, but they're not :-)
The order wasn't that small, by the way -- 230 cars. Its companion order, The R-30/R-30A, was for 320 cars.
David
It's hard to tell with the R-1/9s because while they were essentially retired in sequence, there were exceptions. Most of the R-1s were gone by 1970. The R-4s remained in service through at least 1972 if not 1973 or even '74, while the last of the R-6s didn't leave the scene until late 1976. All of these units remained on the IND and were used mostly during rush hours in their final years on the E and CC lines. The R-7As and R-9s were transferred to the Eastern Division beginning in 1968 and ran until March 31, 1977.
A fantrip does not necessarily mean the equipment is no longer in service. While most fantrips are conducted with retired equipment, some have occurred using rolling stock which was still being used in revenue service.
One outstanding source of this type of information is Larry, Redbird R-33. If anyone can tell you, he could.
I'd volunteer that several R4's were renumbered to r7/9 numbers and in service on the Eastern until or nearly until the end. Can't remembr all the numbers but l458 and l593 are two. Also a group of R6 cars were on the Eastern...last 30 or 40 of the l300's.
I read here a month or two back that a store was open which sold old subway items (signs, etc.).
I thought the address was 75 E. Houston...I didn't find the store last night...
Wondering if I have the wrong address or street? Anyone who can help?
Thanks in advance.
It's not really as much a store, from the outside it more or less appears to be a junkyard. It's on the north side of Houston, near Second Ave (??). You'll see a lot of old gas station signs and the rear fuselage of a small airplae sticking up in the air.
The store is on the northwest corner of Houston and Bowery.
Thanks...I was walking on the south side of Houston. I think I know the place you're talking about now.
has USTALK & SPIRIT OF THE R-9 discussion boards been abandoned ?? I post on these boards etc ...wheres everybody ??
Maybe Fred or Salaam can shed some light on this:
I once heard that Los Angeles MTA transit officials, in their infinite wisdom, went out and purchased a huge fleet of 75-foot cars for the L.A. Red Line on the assumption that the entire line would be built. Now that construction will apparently end when the extension to the San Fernando Valley is finished, what will become of all those mothballed trains?
I have a great (albeit silly) idea about what to do with them: The New York MTA should buy them at a discount and re-equip the Staten Island Rapid Transit. (These cars only have three doors on their sides.) Then, the Staten Island R-44 fleet can be reunited with their A-train counterparts to alleviate the rolling stock shortage for B-divsion trains.
I thought the LA Red Line cars were only 60 feet long. That would've made them suitable for the Eastern Division.
But it's not really that silly of an idea. Why let perfectly good cars like that go to waste? They'd be well-suited to a line like SIRT. Maybe they could even see service on the less-traveled IND lines like the C or G.
The L.A. Red Cars are indeed 75 feet long. I have an O-gauge, cardboard "model" of one that was given out when the line first opened
Most likely Baltimore will have first pick since they are from the same mfg order
06/03/2000
[Most likely Baltimore will have first pick since they are from the same mfg order]
Why would Baltimore need additional cars? Are there plans for extending Metro? If anything, I hear ridership isn't all that.
Bill "Newkirk"
I heard that Baltimore may switch its Metro Line to Light Rail once the Metro cars wear out. But the Baltimore cars were built by Budd (known as Transit America in the mid-80s, it is Miami which uses the same cars). LA's cars were built by Breda. From what I heard only the light rail in Baltimore will see future extentions.
You mean the Italian built the lost angheles RED LINE subways cars to nowhere right ?? BREDA CARS are Italian made ???....!!
You mean the Italian built the lost angeles RED LINE subways cars to nowhere right ?? BREDA CARS are Italian made ???....!!,,
Yup, they're made in Italy, or at least by an Italian-based company. They are nice-looking cars and they seem to be showing up more and more in TV commercials and movies. How reliable are they, considering they don't have to many places to go?
........right !!!!!! ..........& no real wear & tear ( like the NYC SUBWAY )..... to really """test them""& prove they can
cut it like you said !! The RED LINE is more like a Disneyland ride on cotton balls all plush no real ""hard knocks""
the pitiful little short ass RED LINE cars which cannot be used on the BLUE & GREEN lines.......
Now how dumb can you get ?? Why werent they made CROSS-COMPATIBLE so they could operate on all THREE "3"
lines but that makes SENSE & the dammed lost Angeles MTA has none whatsoever .........!!!!!!!!!
This is why public transit in Los Angeles County is a MYTH .......!!!!!!!
A few weeks ago they showed up on the Pretender as the DC METRO subway.
They must think all subways or transit equipment is the same.
If transit is transit they could have used a Boston trolley bus at Harvard Station and called it the DC METRO Subway.
So much for detail on TV
............................right on I agree .......
Probably 9,999 out of 10,000 people don't know the difference. Just as much as we transit fans know our equipment, many of us probably wouldn't know about other subjects that many people do.
The Red Line is Not a 24/7 operation, and most studios still are in LA, so commercials are made when the subway is closed(TV SHOWS Movies etc) and they do not have to go far for location, remember as it was said most people could not tell the difference between a NYC Subway to a Moscow Train, so they do not care.
When I go to a movie with my wife I can allways tell what city it was filmed in because of the buses in the background.
More people than transit fans can tell the diff. I bet everyone that rides DC metro could tell that the trains pictured were not the ones they ride daily.
Most Movies these days are made in either Toronto or Vancouver Canada, because of great tax breaks. Even NYPD Blue is filmed mostly in LA and the exterior scens are filmed in NYC
They have duplicates of the New York exteriors (the Police Station, etc) on the 20th Century Fox lot where NYPD is filmed.
And at Warner Brothers Studio in Burbank, they have a pair of GM fishbowl buses painted up NYCTA colors. They are ex-SCRTD 1000 series T8H5307A's. One can be seen in the ending airport scenes o
"City Slickers".
They also have at least one ex-SCRTD RTS-II painted NYCTA colors too.
Of course, a couple miles away in Burbank, Warner has three R-27/30 subway cars still sitting on a backlot....
>>>More people than transit fans can tell the diff. I bet everyone that rides DC metro could tell that the trains pictured were not the ones they ride daily. <<<
Don't bet on it. A conductor friend of mine on the 3 tells of a time when a man left a breifcase on a train. When asked, what color the train was that he was on,(red or silver) did not know.
Peace,
ANDEE
the red line subway to nowhere is not compatible with the blue & green lines..........
Salaam, you have said that about 6 times this past week already.
........check out this website http//mtala.com/ & then post what you think about this .......!!!
salaamallah: Is this your idea of a joke? I checked the web site mtala.com and found only that the name was for sale.
...........Try this go to YAHOO enter ( mta ) .... in small letters & then SCROLL DOWN & then click on it ........
Thats how I found it the first time .... I thought I copied the location url correctly
I can gaurantee it is listed enter mta first under YAHOO first last time I checked mtala....
No, a contract has been signed with AAI Corporation to rebuild the Budd and Transit America cars for another 20 years of service, which is beginning now. The work will be done at AAI's Hunt Valley plant. The current operating schedule allows enough slack in the fleet to allow for the program without impacting the schedule. The rebuilding includes body repairs, new propulsion package and control package and interior fittings, including ADA fittings. There is no plan to convert the Metro to light rail. The only light rail construction on the current timetable is to double track most sections of the Timonium - Cromwell main line. A possible extension to Glen Burnie has been proposed, with no current plans to design or build.
........Mr. MOVING PLATFORM sir ; you are 100% right !!!! There are more RED LINE subway cars delivered & just
"" sitting there doing nothing "" than they will ever use on that god forsaken ""SUBWAY TO NOWHERE""........
dammed to hell !!! They use them on a rotating basis to keep them from ROTTING & RUSTING while sitting there !!
Why in the hell didnt the Los Angeles MTA ....IDIOTS .....buy all LIGHT RAIL type cars like the type that run on
the blue and green lines or make a transit car or convert them and or order them all for DUAL USAGE ??
like boston & chicago does ?? But you see thats what makes me .... ( excuse me) SO GOD - DAMMED MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry folks .........!!!!!!
why dont they put a TROLLEY POLE & or type of pickup and run it on the BLUE & GREEN lines. ??????
like I posted once and will soon...... """"""THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES""
( please excuse my capital letters this subject makes my BLOOD BOIL ) ..............!!!!!!!!!!!!
While they DID order a larger fleet than was necessary for the past few years on the LA Metro Red Line, once the "full" line out to North Hollywood opens in a couple weeks, ridership is expected to grow enough that all the cars will be used.
Even now, with the line only running from LAUS to Wilshire/Western and to Hollywood/Vine, there aren't any "mothballed" cars -- most of the cars do see ome service on a rotational basis.
Steve, when will it be opend the red line to the Valley, is the Terminal Universal City or does it go further North?
The Red Line extension to North Hollywood opens June 24. The terminal station is at Lankershim and Chandler, one stop past Universal City.
right across the street from universal city .........I will be there to take some pics...........!!!!!!
Saturday, June 24th is now the scheduled opening day.
Any body have Track Builder for Train Dispatcher 2? Well im almost done with my Track Builder of J,M,Z line & i want to know how to send my track layout to Signal Company. Just post it here
Peace Out
David Justininao
Go to http://www.signalcc.com and there's a section on their webpage wherein you can send e-mail to them. Just send your layout as an attachment.
Other than the R32s and R40 Slants, which B division cars still have railfan windows?
The R-38s have railfan windows, and the R-40M slants also. Other than those, there are none. The rest are R-46s, R-68s, and R-68As. Sometimes, you can get a good view through the cab door of the R-68 and R-68As if the train operator doesn't cover it.
and the R-40M slants
I can't believe I'm answering this thread, but....a 40M slant?
Sorry about that. I was under the impression that they were slanted until I checked a minute ago. I've never seen them, so I thought they were the same except for some minor details like the R-68 and R-68A.
the r40m slant, was a car that was originally a slant, then the front was changed to an r42, and then it was changed back to a slant :-)
Well, that would explain the delicate situation of R40M #4461.
R40Ms do NOT have slanted ends; they have straight ends like R42.
The current railfan-friendly equipment list in B Division is as follows:
R32 (A,C,E,N,R)
R38 (A,C)
R40 (Slant)(L,N,Q; B on weekends)
R40M (J,L,M,Z)
R42 (J,L,M,Z)
wayne
06/04/2000
Wayne,
I think heypaul was pulling you leg !
Bill "Newkirk"
R38, R40 mods, and R42.
Anybody fom Washington Heights who went through the blackout last year?
I did. I live in Inwood near 207 St and it was hell for me lights went out like around morning hours and it was very hot and it came back the next day like around 5:00PM I couldn't sleep during that night it was scary no lights on the street they were alot of cops on the streets and ConEd was working hard to restored the lights and in the near future all I have to say is that I hope it won't let it happen again please.
I was wondering if they still sell the Subway Cars of the BMT Book at the Transit Museum Gift Shops or at Barnes&Nobles Bookstore because I want to get a copy of that book so could somebody tell me if they are still selling that book around? thanks
There were a couple of copies available at the show today in Kendall Park. It's out of print, so you'll have to find a place that has one in stock.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The good folks at the museum shop in GCT say they're expecting to get a 'Subway Cars' book in the next few days. No mention of which it is, but 'NYC Subway Cars' was in stock, so it's not that one.
-Hank
I stopped at the GCT Museum shop today and they had 7 copies of "Subway Cars of the BMT" on the shelf.
I ended up buying "BRT Trolley Lines in Queens" by Vincent Seyfried and "Building the New Rapid Transit System of NYC Circa 1915", a reprint.
Also the author of the book, Jim Greller, was at the show, too.
-Mark
Amazon.Com still lists the book for $36.00 with a 4-6 week shipping schedule.
That's where I got mine. A wonderful book, with great pictures ....
On a recent visit to the Barnes & Noble at 6th Avenue and 22nd Street, I saw just the book you were looking for inthe "New York" section. If I recall there were maybe 1 or 2 copies on the shelf.
Try Amazon.com
It is available at tmny.safeshopper.com.
The R32's are now getting their well deserved new floors. 3494/95 were running on the E Thursday and Friday (first pair of cars on the south end facing WTC). I hope the TA suits don't get angry at me for this (security reasons LOL!!!), but they got laid up in the station at Kew Gardens Friday nite. Usually, whatever is there stays till the Monday morning rush. They look great. The black flooring with the little white/pink specs contrast quite nicely with the grey seats. I was on 3494 a few months ago. I posted on subtalk that the floor sunk greatly. My other pair of cars on my wishlist to get done soon are 3402/03. That pair went to JAM yard Tuesday before the PM rush for repair as the car on the south end had intermittant stuck brakes. Was holding 10 pounds. Those phase II's are awful. Many of them we have to go to full release intermitantly then bring it back to running release to move the train. They go to the yard, NDF (no defect found), possibly buried, then a few days later the original problem is forgotten about and a bad car is in the lead again. Let's see who's favorites get new floors when. The UTC webmaster says 3708/09, Wayne says 3612/13 and I say 3402/03.
3402/03 was not found to be NDF.
I did not express myself clearly. The NDF I was refering to was not on this particular incident of 3402/03, but other NYAB past problems since I have been pounding the road on the E for the last 13 months. It is the same cars all the time, maybe they do it once during the course of a trip, maybe not at all this particular trip. You take a brake and as you lap/manipulate you get a blow of air like the B2 has tripped put, but it actually hasn't. Put the valve into running release and you still hear air, it bleeds off in full release, come back to running release and as I said, no more problems for the rest of the trip. Sometimes it happens when you release brakes following a station stop. Go to full release, then go back to running release after you hear the air finish bleeding off. When it is checked in the controlled conditions of a yard or terminal with the train not moving, everything is OK, and now the motorman looks bad! These valves did this years ago during the testing phase when several R42's were experimentally outfited with them (4754/55, 4760/61, 4864/65 and others). I feel the TA was commited to NYAB then and now the problems really come out when it is on the fleet en-mass. They got rid of NYAB on the R68's but half the R32's have problems or potential problems. 3372/73 had NYAB problems a few weeks ago. I can't recall all numbers right now, but I've had problems with 3838 & 3839; 3459; and 3479 is making this intermittant sick grunting noise when brakes are applied. There are others.
The Electric self lapper on the NYAB brake valve has long been known to be a problem. When the R-68 was overhauled, we took the NYAB Brake valves out in favor of WABCO. Hence a sudden increase in MDBF on the R-68s. In general, therefore, you are correct. The NYAB problems are intermittant and are often found to be NDF.
Had a great time today at the transit model show in Kendall Park - thanks to Steve Olsen and friends for a job well done!
Mark Feinman was there with his videos. Other SubTalkers present, besides Anon_e_mouse Jr. and myself, were Doug a.k.a. BMTman, Heypaul, Mark W., Thurston, Patrick (a lurker), Chao-Hwa Chen, Alan (Cpaal14l), D-Train Derek (I can't remember your handle, sorry!) and one or two others whose names I have forgotten. Doug arranged for a photo to be taken of most of us that he plans to send to Dave for posting so hopefully I'll be able to put some more names with the faces then. It's nice to meet up with old friends and new ones too.
Doug found himself a real prize... I'll let him tell you all about it :-) I finally completed my collection of Electriclines and got another one of Mark's videos but didn't find the other stuff I wanted. Can't find everything every time, though.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. spent much of his time helping the Long Island Traction guys by putting trolley poles back on the wire when they would come off, which happened quite frequently at a couple of spots. Kept him occupied and gave them a chance to do the other things that needed doing. They, and the NYC group working with them, have quite a nice setup.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, seems Chris got to find a "goldmine" of Electriclines mags from one of the dealers there. Actually, I was looking for some missing issues and arrived at the show around 10:30. Turns out Chris was there SOOOO early that ALL the issues were gone (guess who bought them all ;-).
Anyhow, turns out Chris was a good sport and helped me out with some issues that I was missing. Thanks!
I lucked out by purchasing one of the last remaining pieces of an R-11 (a headlamp housing). Having ridden the cars on the Franklin Shuttle back in the 70's, it was a delight and a real privilege to bring home a piece of Brighton Line -- and Budd Company -- memorabilia. (The Redbird belt-buckle wasn't too shabby either!)
BTW, Alan and Derek (D-Train) showed up not long before we (Thurston, Patrick, Paul (heypaul) and myself) had to hit the road. We were able to sit down and have a lunch with all the guys and view some more of the layouts and vendor videos before parting ways.
It was a GREAT show! And even better company! This is something that should become a tradition among us rapid transit railfans (even twice a year would be better).
GREAT WEATHER TOO!
Doug aka BMTman
Well, plan on attending the Fall Trolley Extravaganza Sept 8 & 9, 2000, in King of Prussia, PA. It's run just like this past Saturday's show.
I don't run this show in any way, by the way. But having attended it for many years, I can say it's a good one.
I'll be there. You come on down, too!
--Mark
I am glad to meet Anon_e_mouse, Doug aka BMTman, heypaul, Thurston, and Mark Feinman. Although I met you guys for the first time, I felt we have known one another for a long time.
I bought a 1958 and a 1967 subway maps and several subway slides of '60s and '70s. But I put my focus on taking pictures on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. Today's a great day to take pictures outside. I had great shot on the Delaware River Bridge, at Princeton Junction, and Edison. I even found an HHL-8 testing on the NEC.
It's been a pleasure.
Chaohwa
It was a pleasure to finally put a face with the many names that I have read articles written by them. The model show was great and it gave us the opportunity to break bread with each other. I hope to see you guys in the future at these transit related events.
D-Train
i too had a great time at the show... i don't remember anything that happened, but it was better than a day on the ward... it was fun travelling there in doug's 69 chrysler 800... it was great meeting a whole bunch of my fellow subtalkers, even though i just woke up screaming after having a nightmare about them... breaking bread gave me the feeling of common humanity that i often feel on the wards, but breaking wind together with several of the guys was even more pleasurable...it was good to see chris and his son, doug, thurston, chao hwa, mark feinman, derek d train, patrick, mark w... if i have forgotton anyone, the tranquilizer is beginning to take hold... i hope i don't have any more nightmares about being on transit transit... nobody mentioned that they were there too...
[nobody mentioned that they were there too...]
BTW, Transit Transit was there and I just had to bust Andy O'Rourke's chops about one of his cohorts NOT showing up at the show. He knows who he is...
So there, I mentioned Transit Transit.
Heypaul, I think you need stronger medication, don't you? ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
one thing we haven't mentioned... the new york city model transit system people were really amazing... they didn't have their 50 ft x 8 ft layout at the show, but they did produce two two hour videos of their system in operation... it was amazing to see one of their trains moving... they seemed to be the real thing... they used a macro-video cam that could zero into places that were too small for the human head...the interior of the cars had wicker seats, and passengers, and motormen... in one of the cars there was even a railfan video photographer with his equipment pressed against the front railfan window..
seeing all this stuff has got me thinking about bringing out my own line of full size r9 motorman cab ... to help me gauge how many units to make, please send your check for $20,000 to:
heypaul r9 occupational therapy workshop
kings county hospital
brooklyn ny.
since posting my previous message listing a proposed price of $20,000 for a heypaul r9 motorman's cab, i have been contacted by the prince of darkness, who runs a whole underground subway system of his own... he is a railfan and has offered the services of the dead to build the cabs... he has a special labor contract with the deceased which completely eliminates the cost of labor... as a result the cost to railfan for the motorman's cab has been reduced to $15,000... satan will also offer a special purchase plan---"buy now, pay nothing while you are alive, and pay it off over eternity"...
Sounds like a great deal to me (after all I'm bound to burn in Hades anyhow -- the sinner that I am).
:-)
...Are there any vidieos of this anywhere ? also are there any shows planned in october ??..
also are vidieo cameras allowed to these model subway shows etc.....
Finally are there any still shots anyone could post on these exhibits - shows etc.....
i think doug and patrick were taking pictures of some of the stuff at the show... i am not sure if anyone will post stuff here... there are two 2 hour videos available of the model layout... they are $15 each... several of us gave the guy our name and addresses, so that he could contact us when he had some copies made.. you can contact them at
new york city model transit system
post office box 12212
philadelphia, pa. 19144
i don't know if there are any model train shows planned for october..
The Cable TV show "Transit Transit" should have sizable coverage in the July segment that will feature the layouts and the clubs that built them.
I will have snap-shots ready in a couple of days (cross those fingers!).
I believe one of the SubTalk lurkers (hey Patrick -- show yourself!) was videotaping most of the show. I'll check with him via e-mail to see what turned up on the final "cut".
Doug aka BMTman
Are there any vidieos of this anywhere ? also are there any shows planned in october ??..
I actually have some I took back in 1994 at a similar show with the same folks.
I'm not aware of any transit shows in October. I do know of one in September (the 8th and 9th) in King of Prussia, PA.
also are vidieo cameras allowed to these model subway shows etc.....
Yes, but yours might be too big for some of these railfan windows :)
Finally are there any still shots anyone could post on these exhibits - shows etc.....
Pat Villani runs a web site on modeling NYC transit. Check the transfer station on this site for a link to it (I do not remember if offhand).
--Mark
Heypaul, the check is in the mail!!!
That was Joe Frank's layout. I had the opportunity to run it many years ago. The detail on his layout and subway car fleet is not to be believed. Totally amazing. Did you see his 4 R-42s with complete interiors and people on the seats? I felt like King Kong looking through the model when I picked it up.
But I saw something strange at the railfan window. It looked like a video camera and someone looking out the window talking to the train operator .... looked like ... SalaamAllah ...
Nah, couldn't be .....
--Mark
So THAT'S who was there with the TV camera .....
--Mark
To quote the poet laureate of Motown "Smokey" Robinson, "I second that emotion.
It was fun to meet up with everybody. I tried to get there by noon but was sidetracked by two things. First, while on the Staten Island Expressway, my friend Al and I, spied a 1969 Dodge Charger Daytona on a trailer being towed to a car show. The truck pulling the trailer had a distributor problem and was off to the side of the road. Since that car is the first thing I'm buying when I hit a lottery, we circled back to take photos. Then the directions from the internet said to go north instead of south on US causing a twenty mile detour.
However, the quality time in saying hello and being in the group picture was well worth the trip. I ended up purchasing a GMC-RTS slope back model mounted on a wood base with a glass case. Its really sharp looking. My friend picked up some books about the trolleys of Brooklyn, a side roller sign, and some muli-armed part with glass lenses that the trolley operated used to signal the tower, just like the lights in the front of the subways.
The exhibits were great and made this city boy's heart sing. To see that many subway and trolley models in one place made the show worthwile and distinguished it from the typical Greenburg show. Joe Saitta and his new look Flxible was there selling his pictures. Also Royal Coach was there selling all his Jimson toy bank buses. I thought that $29 for the NYC MTA version was more than excessive when the exact same item can be purchased from TMNY website for $14.95.
All in all it was a great time and worth the trip on a nice day. Perhaps next time it could held closer to the NYC area.
Again, it was great meeting Mark Fineman, Anon-e-mous (Sr and Jr, Thurston, Linsky, D-Train and the rest of motley crew.
#9306WF a/k/a Hart Bus
any pictures & or vidieos of this also are any shows planned in october ??
[I even found an HHL-8 testing on the NEC.]
I took a nearly-useless video of the HHL-8 train moving east on track 2 over the Schuylkill River at Girard Ave in Philly around 10 AM. The video was of inferior quality because I was too close: I was in a train on track 3.
The major plus of the day was that the train (Philly NRHS Reading FP7 excursion) was wyed at Zoo to return to 30th Street around 5:15 PM and went through the "New York-Pittsburgh Subway" (subject of a thread 2 or 3 weeks ago). Catenary is in place through the subway.
The FP7's entered service June 2, 1950, and were used for many years on the 'Wall Street' and 'Crusader' between Reading Terminal (Philly) and Jersey City).
Bob
I had a great time even while minding my dad's table (he had the first test test shots of the HO R62 roof/ends and an in progress side mold).
I also liked to watch the videos of the Myrtle el on the table next door, especially to see the building where I lived, the bar where I met my g/f, and the building where my cat was born.
Who got a chance to see Joe Frank's model 3rd Ave. video?? That was kewl!!
My B&QT PCC #1009 got a work out too, but was taken out of service due to a bent pole...
Great Show!!
I'll add my two cents to the other fine posts. You guys didn't leave much for me to say, but I too had a great time ... the show and the company !
I particularly liked the trolley & RT layouts ... had never seen a subway layout with the trains powered by THIRD RAIL ... WOW! Also realy liked the "Newark City Subway" PCC decked out in the current colors A-N-D with a trolley pole and a Pantograph ... dbl WOW!
I too made a few purchases, one being a TA "Operator" badge that I intend to attach to my trolley hat ... now there won't anyone who won't understand what this operator realy likes ;-)
Also did a walk around of Joe Saitta's GMC Fishbowl decked out in pre-LI Bus colors in the parking lot, was the final treat of the day.
In conclusion it was well worth the long haul there as a passenger in Doug's Chrysler 300 ... even the AC still works in his oldie but goodie !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, you should have looked a little closer at Joe Saitta's bus.
Its a FLXIBLE new look, not GMC. Check the pictures of Bus Fest 1999 on this website....Hope to see you up in Connecticut this summer, with my friend Al.
#9306 WF
Sorry about that ... the problem is that I only WORK for a bus company, but am a subway buff ... at least I knew it was a bus ;^)
Re this summer, let me know in advance & maybe i'll be able to take you for a ride ... Ding Ding
Mr t
Hey all ....
It was great meeting up with all of you who attended (Anon-e-mouse summed it up pretty good for all of us). Thanks to all of you for coming by and saying hello. I think I counted 11 or 12 of us altogether from SubTalk who attended.
I ended up picking up a gem myself at the show. I got a copy of Cunningham & DeHart's "The History of the NYC Subway System, Part II" covering the BMT. I've been looking for a copy of any part of this three-part series for years; finally I got one. Now it's only two to go ....
Steve Olsen did a great job with arrangements for the dealers and I expect to make this a yearly tradition for as long as he runs the show. The "waitress service" he made available for dealers was a great idea, considering that I was at the table alone and couldn't leave for extended periods of time.
Thanks again.
--Mark
I'm on the Liberty Lines bus to Riverdale, and on the bridge that brings E138st over the Major Degan, there are exposed trolley tracks. I thought the Deegan was built well after the end of trolley service in the Bronx.
-Hank
The part between the Grand Concourse and the Triborough Bridge was opened in 1936.
The "northern" part of the Deegan was built about 1953. There were still trolley tracks in The Bronx in 1963 - 64.
Not trolley SERVICE. Why would anybody bother keeping tracks when building a highway when there were no trolleys to run on them?
It took almost 20 years to repave all the local streets that had trolley tracks.
Usually the rails were covered with black top overlays, and much of the rail is still there.
In places like NY where the city was trying to get rid of streetcars there was no hurry to pull up the rail.
In Milwaukee, where the electric company was trying to get out of the street railway business, when they closed a line they pulled up the rail quickly so they could not be forced to resume service.
A lot of street rail was salvaged during WWII to recycle the steel. Lines that were abandoned prior to that likely have no rail under the pavement.
Yes, but I'm talking about rails on an overpass over a highway. I was under the impression that Bronx trolley service ended well before the highway that this overpass crosses was built.
-Hank
That part of the highway was built in 1936, before the trolleys were abandoned.
What was there before the highway? Could the bridge be older than the highway?
Here is a link to an excellent history of the Deegan Expwy. in The Bronx...
HISTORY OF DEEGAN
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks.
Nothing was there before, at least not below grade. The bridge is not older than the highway.
In 1989, Westchester Av was unpaved tempoarily during reconstruction of the street, exposing trolley tracks which belonged to the Bx4's bus's predesessor.
-Stef
When McDonald Ave in Broolyn was rebuilt in the 1980s, the trolley tracks were left intact and it wasn't until the early 1990s that they were simply covered over with blacktop.
--Mark
Crosstown trolley service on 135-138St ended in 1947.
A copy of this book by Frederick Kramer is for sale at alibris.com for $ 625.00. Does anyone know what makes this book so valuable?
it sounds like a rip-off... i have a paperback copy of the book that i paid $13 for... if anyone desires it, i will be happy to sell it for $300, over 50% off the current asking price...
I agree with heypaul; $625.00 for that book is an absolute ripoff. Ripoff ain't the word; highway robbery is more like it.
There's a sucker born every minute...
I agree. I think I bought my copy at the Transit Museum 2 years ago. Even if it is out of print, it can't be that valuable.
Not a thing. There were at least two copies, one for $10 and the other for $15, at the show yesterday. Just for grins I checked about fifteen other books that I have purchased in the last three months - not all railroad-related - and their prices are considerably higher than what I paid for any of them, either from dealers listed at Advanced Book Exchange or Bibliofind. Alibris is a service just like Advanced Book Exchange (my favorite) and Bibliofind (much overlap with ABE but it does have some unique listings) but it looks like they mostly cater to the high-end dealers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I photocopied that book since I used it for refernece when doing my paper for US Urban history, on the subway in New York. I copied the pages @ the Public Library on 42nd Street since I was tired of just sitting there, and read it at home. Very interesting, especially the sections about the 8th & 6th avenue lines. But $600+ is way too much IMHO.
There was a statement in the book about the photos; specifically, they were going to be thrown away or something to that effect and were salvaged. Maybe the seller took it to mean these photos were rare and thus the book to him was worth that much more. I feel sorry for anyone who ends up shelling out that much dough for that book.
Hi
Does anyone have a good UP TO DATE drawing of the 63 st Tunnel showing the LIRR and IND Tracks.
I need this info for the East Side Study of the LIRR into Grand Central via 63st
.I have the DEIS and the Alignment Drawings,however the IND Portion of the Drawings is missing--I only have the LIRR and the IND in 2 seperate drawings,not next to each other or in the upper and lower level style.
Thanks
Steve Lowenthal
I don't know if anybody showed up for it or not (I was out), but it seems that people DO want to chat and either they aren't informed of it or the time is incovenient.
There needs to be a bigger information drive, either that, or interest has just waned and it isn't coming back.
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Why the eye motif in the IND WTC-Chambers Street corridor? Any particular reason?
www.forgotten-ny.com
It is big brother watching the E line motormen to change ends quickly and leave on time! Those eyes are hooked up to 370 Jay St.
They probably had the art contest to do something grand for that station, and the eyes were chosen.
It was on Transit Transit last month. They eyes are supposed to be modeled after photographs of "average new yorkers" faces. The artist modeled each set of them by looking at pictures. The transfer between Park Place and WTC has a great huge mosaic on the floor in a fenced off area. It has a large eye superimposed over a map of New York City. It took something like 500,000 little pieces of tile to do this large mosaic. They had to do it all by hand.
-Harry
It's a map of Earth, not New York City.
The Earth... New York City... They are both the same to a New Yorker.
It is part of a large artwork called "OCULUS" (eye). The Main Eye is on the floor near Park Place transfer stairs; there are +/- 330 eyes on various walls, pillars, stairwells etc throughout the Chambers-H&M/Chambers-WTC station complex.
Click here for examples of "Oculus".
wayne
And when your not looking they move and follow you around!
Put some of those eyes on the closed canal st. station. Nothing better then someone keeping a eye on you while your down there.
Although I haven't had a chance to survey all of the Oculus plaques, it wouldn't surprise me any if they had tiny cameras intalled in them at key locations throughout the station complex. NB: This is only my opinion, not a statement of fact or allegation thereof.
wayne
The May issue of Transit Transit happens to have a piece on this, not sure if you can still catch it this week.
Mr t__:^)
R142 Test Line 2 Weekdays
Southbound
706A
1020A
140PM
458PM
814 PM
from Flatbush Av
841AM
1202 PM
0322 PM
637PM
958 PM
R142A Line 6 Weekdays
Southbound from Pelham Bay
6AM,,808AM,,1024AM,,1236PM,,252PM,,458PM,,712PM
Northbound from Brooklyn Bridge
705 AM,913AM , 1126 Am, 142 PM ,356 PM,602PM,819 PM
R142 Line 2 Saturdays
Southbound from 241 st
703 AM, 1025 AM, 144 PM , 504 PM, 627 PM
Northbound from Flatbush Av
848AM, 1208 Pm, 328 PM ,648 PM , 1011 PM,
R142A Line 6 Saturdays
Southbound leaving Pelham
703 Am, 915 Am, 1127 Am, 137 PM,347 PM,557 PM,807 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
811 AM, 1025 AM, 1234 Am, 244 PM, 454 PM, 704 PM ,915PM
R142 Line 2 Sundays
leaving 241 Southbound
651 AM, 1027 Am, 152 PM , 526 Pm, 850 PM
Leaving Flatbush Av Northbound
846 AM, 1211 PM, 341 PM, 712 PM, 1036 PM
R142A Line 6 Sundays
Leaving Pelham Bay Southbound
656 Am ,911 Am,1127 Am ,138 PM,354 PM,616 PM,830 PM
Leaving Brooklyn Bridge Northbound
803AM, 1021 AM,1236 PM,248 PM,504 PM,723 PM,936 PM
When does this start??? I can catch it on the weekends....
3TM
No Start Date announced,Keep Watching,,30 Day Test
Last I heard was June 15 but subject to change.
YES, I will be running that train 2 days during the week and once on Saturday.
The R 142 falls on 2 of my weekday runs which are the 8:08AM And the 12:36PM out of Pelham Bay. Out of Brooklyn Bridge is the 9:13AM and 1:42PM.
On Saturday I will be running the train for the 3:47PM out of Pelham and the 4:54PM Out of Brooklyn Bridge.
Dave are these non-revenue test runs or test runs with passengers?
I'm riding June 17th and would love to get a ride on it.
How about some times for key stations, like
#2: Penn Station or Times Square, Borough Hall
#6: Grand Central, 125th street
Wayne
Me and Trevor and were discussing this yesterday. All I know is that on the 6 line he says the first one pulls out June 15 at 6am on the Pelham Terminal on the 6 line. I won't be able to be there because of a Regents(ARGHHHHH) but I will be on that afternoon. I hear it is supposed to run all day.
My regents on that day starts at 12:00, so I will be skipping the optional review class beforehand to ride the first run. Now, to explain to mom why I'm leaving at 4:30am...
If all goes well they should be in Revenue service but I'm not sure about what time they will arrive at the major station stops.
I'll check into it and post.
I am also figuring this out. Name the trip on the 2 on weekdays and Saturdays and I can give you the times at timepoints on the schedule.
How about Times Sq?
Times Square is one of the stations. I might finish this thing tonight or before I go to New York on Monday and will upload it at that time. Stations I will have times for are 241st, East 180th, 149th, 135th, 96th, 42nd, 14th, Chambers, Nevins, Franklin, and Flatbush on the 2, and Pelham Bay Park, East 177th, Hunts Point Avenue, 138th, 125th, 68th, 42nd, Astor, Bleeker, and Brooklyn Bridge on the 6. When I finish, I will post on the board. It will also be uploaded on to my web page for download.
DISCLAIMER: TIMES CAN BE OFF BY A FEW MINUTES. IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO GO TO THE STATION AT LEAST 5-10 MINUTES BEFORE THE TIME I GIVE SO THAT YOU ARRIVE BEFORE THE TRAIN DOES AND NOT AFTER. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT COMES AROUND AGAIN.
Question to Pelham Bay Dave:
I'm from Sydney, recently spent 10 days in NY and rode a lot of the subway, and like to keep an eye on schedules and subtalk. A question, if I may:
You say you may be driving the new R 142 train on weekdays, ex Pelham at 8.08 and 12.36. Running time to City Hall is about 55-57 mins, so arrival there would I assume be about 9.05 and 1.35 approx. You then say you will return at 9.13 and 1.42. This tends to indicate that you will step back one or two trains either at City Hall arrival, or departure track. I rode around the loop last year in the PM rush, and it was very quick - hardly time for a change of crew.
I would be interested in details of your working, assuming my timings are correct and published time-tables have these running times.
Thanks. Ian
Well there is no crew change at Brooklyn Bridge and the running time is 58 Minutes to 59 Minutes from Pelham Bay to Brooklyn Bridge. On the 8:08 it arrives at Brooklyn Bridge at 9:07 and leaves at 9:13. There is a train on the uptown side and in the loop. So by the time I discharge the train and take it around its time to go. During Rush Hours theres a 6 Minutes layover with a train leaving every 3 Minutes. On the 12:36 it get to Brooklyn Bridge at 1:33 a train. the train ahead is a No.6 to Parkchester that leaves at 1:37. So my train would be in the loop. The headway is then 5 Minutes with a 9 Minute layover
Also NO PASSENGERS are allowed to ride in the City Hall Loop as ordered by the New York City Police Department However sometimes there is no enough time to get people off the train. I hope you did enjoy the view.
Pelham Bay Dave,
Thanks for your note and yes, the view was fine if a bit 'in the dark!' It was an experience, however. We got around in about 90 secs, and set off north in another 30, so things must have been just a bit behind.
New York is one great system, anyhow. I enjoyed it immensely.
The train you where on must of been late. Ofcause thats normal for PM Rush Hours on the No.6 Line.
Please correct me if I am wrong or misunderstood. The R142's were supposed to be tested for 30 days @ 24 hrs per day. The schedule seems to leaave very large gaps at night.
The rest of the time is for analysis of data collected while the cars are in service.
David
So there will be a few computers n'stuff still in the cars, or just in the cabs or attached to the trucks? Maybe they will close one car and keep everything in there?
What's the latest word on whether the R142/R142A test trains will begin passenger service tomorrow, June 15th?
If you have access to a "Public Access" TV station there's some infor in this month's Transit Transit. There also have been a number of threads here, so if you don't get a specific reply you might search for some of these recent discussions (personally I haven't been keeping up with them).
Mr t__:^)
06/04/2000
I was wondering when the #7 Flushing line instituted using 11 cars. I believe it was for the 1964-65 World's Fair. Am I right?
Bill "Newkirk"
They started running 11 car trains on the Flushing line in late-63 or early-64, once all of the R-33 and R-36 World's Fair cars (aka Bluebirds) had been delivered and were available for service.
-- Ed Sachs
All stations had to be extended for the 11 car trains.
Normaly the single is the third car from the Flushing end.
Bill "Newkirk":
You should also keep in mind that one of the cars on every 11 car #7 train is a single car.
BMTJeff
Bill: Flushing Line trains were lengthened to 10 cars on November 1,1962 and to 11 cars on April 20,1964. At this time there was an insufficient number of Bluebirds,both R-33 and R-36 to protect the service so a number of mainline Redbirds,R-33's and single unit R-17's were sent over to the Flushing Line to pitch-hit for the missing Bluebirds.
Larry,RedbirdR-33
Weren't the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s retained on the 7 until the R-36s arrived in sufficient numbers? There are photos in Gotham Turnstiles, circa 1963, of 11-car trains of R-12/14s over there, plus a photo of another 11-car train of mostly R-15s with an R-17 or two thrown in.
BTW, welcome back!
Steve: The Bluebirds were placed in service on the Flushing Line starting September 26,1963 and R-12,14 and 15 began being transfered back to the mainline. R-17s 6500-6549 which had been transfered to Flushing in November 1962 began returning a little bit later, November 4,1963. The last R-12,14 and 15 left Flushing on April 17,1964 while the first Redbirds arrived on March 15,1964 and stayed until after July 23,1964. The last R-17s left for the mainland in January of 1965. Apparently the TA did not wish to mix the older R's with the Bluebirds whereas a cleaned up maroon R-17 could mix with the Redbirds although I did see maroon R-17s as the 11th car on Bluebird trains at times.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
BX55 said:
>>>I for one am a fan of graffiti as an artform. I use graffiti and photographs of graffiti murals in my own art.
Yes, there IS a difference between artistic graffiti and the random scrawls across apartment walls with
expletives. I think graffti is something you can't truly understand unless you are from the ghetto or have
some understanding on what it is like to be an urban youth. <<<
So, let's have a hopefully calm discussion about graffiti.
I agree with BX55 that the best graffiti, as in the stuff you see on wall murals, is pretty damn good. Yet, I championed the no-graffiti olicy instituted by the MTA back in the late 1980s, mainly because I despised having a 'decor' imposed on me by the graffitists, most of whom are not working for any art esthetic but instead are concerned with flaunting the MTA's efforts to get rid of it. (In my humble opinion) graffiti is of a piece with the guys who turn their beatboxes all the way up (see Spike Lee's "Do The Right Thing" if you want to see a document of the importance the beatbox guys attach to volume), or drive boom cars, or even gun their engines at stoplights or when they're pulling away from the curb. Dominate your space, and attain self-worth. Get rid of graffiti, you'll have scratchiti. Eliminate scratchiti and something else will crop up.
I was an urban youth once, and hated riding in tagged cars, and I seriously doubt whether I would have gotten involved in graffiti if I had been from the ghetto. I've always been an independent thinker...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Demolition, brother.
The problem here is that all "grafitti" is illegal. Once it becomes legal, like obtaining permission for those "murals" (which I actually like), it ceases to become grafitti and becomes art. All grafitti is illegal. There is no such thing as a "grafitti artist". Your either an artist, or a grafitti vandal. Just trying to make the distinction here.
Perhaps in the dictionary you're writing, but not in Webster's.
Main Entry: graf·fi·to
Pronunciation: gr&-'fE-(")tO, gra-, grä-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural graf·fi·ti /-(")tE/
Etymology: Italian, incised inscription, from graffiare to scratch, probably from grafio stylus, from Latin graphium
Date: 1851
: an inscription or drawing made on some public surface (as a rock or wall); also : a message or slogan written as or as if as a graffito
- graf·fi·tist /-'fE-tist/ noun
usage The plural graffiti is sometimes used with a singular verb as a mass noun but this use is not yet as well established as the mass-noun use of data. Use of graffiti as a singular count noun is still quite rare and is not standard.
Grafitti, as we are discussing it, refers to a crime. Webster's dictionary defines it as a drawing made on a public surface, and the last time I checked, that was illegal. Thanks for backing my argument up ...
Bull. The government can always ALLOW an artist to draw on a public surface.
There are museums owned by the public, does that mean that the art there is illegal? It's drawing on public surfaces?
Believe it or not, one of my friends has revealed to me that scratchitti is actually loosing popularity! Tagging by scratching is becoming 'whack', and now they are starting to return to marker and spraypaint. A few intrepid taggers burn the tags into the armrest areas of R-44s and R-46s. On the Queens Blvd. line around Forest Hills and Rego Park, look for tags by Meser, and you'll see what I mean. Not just in the subway, either.
It was announced on Israel Radio this morning, June 4, that effective today Israel Railways has increased its daily number of passenger trains from 164 to 203 (>20% increase)! Also, service from Tel Aviv (Israel's largest metro area) to Be'er Sheva' (Israel's fourth largest city and "capital of the Negev") is now fully operational. Also today, beginning of operation from Tel Aviv to the inland town of Rosh Ha'Ayin.
How about the wonderful route from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Is that in service again?
They run 2 trains daily in each direction, one each way in the morning and one each way in the evening, theyt are waiting for 4 more train sets by the end of the year to add more trains. The problem with Israel Rail is that the train stations are mostly out of the way of the downtown area. Tel Aviv central is next to the Diamond Mart in Ramat Gan, Haifa has 2 stations, bot a distance from the central station. and so is Jeruslam Station. But the rides were great.
Today's post is carrying a story on how the new budget won't do much to alliviate overcrowding conditions on most lines.
http://www.nypost.com/news/30595.htm
-Hank
Notice the lines that are at capacity and cannot add trains, according to that article?
"According to TA documents, rush-hour service is maxed out on the 2, 3, 4, 5, B, D, E, F and Q lines - nearly half the system."
The Lexington Avenue Line, the Queens Boulevard Line, and the Manhattan Bridge. Has any one seem any work on the Manny B? I haven't seen much activity since that worker fell off.
The E and F trains at one time could have gone to 11 cars if the Stations weren't shortened. I have no doubt that Traindudes staff could have modified some a/b to allow for singles to be added or some triplets to be created
avid
" When you're running at capacity there isn't much you can do to relieve overcrowding other than to make sure the trains that you have are incredibly reliable," said TA spokesman Al O'Leary.
"Until you build another railroad, there are physical constraints to what you can do," he said.
According to TA documents, rush-hour service is maxed out on the 2, 3, 4, 5, B, D, E, F and Q lines - nearly half the system. "
Damn liars.
On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.
[On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.]
Yeah. That's why it burns me up that the Post took the TA at its word (I wrote them a letter, but they didn't publish it).
[On the "A" line or 8th Ave line na d the "F" line or 6th Ave line the ends of the platforms have had work on them that has shortened them . What once ould have handled 11 car trains now can not. A possible 10% increase in capacity has been removed. For what I ask? Could this space come from elsewhere? I realize its a headache form the car maintainers to work on "singles" but ten percent is ten percent. Who here would not like to get an additional TEN PERCENT in their bank or portfoilio?
This was GRAND THEFT!
Livid avid.]
Yeah. That's why it burns me up that the Post took the TA at its word--I wrote them a letter to that effect, but they didn't publish it.
I was looking at the Paris section of this site and I'm fascinated by Line 14 of the Metro. I like the way the Paris train cars are connected to form a single "tube" to see all the way down the whole train. The only experinece I have had with ZPTO is with the shuttle at Hartsfield Airport. To me, ZPTO is an extremely efficent means of transportation. With it, you can run trains very frequently throughout the whole day and have no human invovlment. This means lower operating costs, faster turning around of trains, and perhaps running trains closer together. Also ZPTO allows for a huge railfan window up front. The computer systems used appear to be reliable, since out of all my years of traveling in and out of Hartsfield, only once did the computers fail when I was on a train. Everyone had to walk to the concourses instead.
Here are some questions I have. In Paris, when line 14 gets croweded, are there any types of sensors to hold the doors open longer? Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone? On London's new Jubilee line, they also have platform edge doors, could they be planning ahead for making their subway ZPTO one day? I know NYC won't have ZPTO anytime soon, or even OPTO, but what about other US cities, do you think that one day ZPTO will be a reality some day? What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?
.......how are you doing these days rob from atlanta ???........my comment is that those MARTA trains could be operated
by that same ZPTO as you put on your last post ......
I do feel however it is just as dangerous as the OPTO operation you have there now ( Lost Angeles too ).............
Thats what I think all transit systems want a few employes to pay as possible & to hell with passenger safety ..!!
They would if they could even fire all motormen - motorwomen clean house sweep ZPTO rules .....!!!!!
I'm doing well, I haven't had really anything to post about lately, but I'm still here almost everyday. Anyway, the TO still has to operate the doors on MARTA trains, so it really can't be ZPTO. As for safety, there could be police on patrol in the trains, they do that already here in the ATL.
.........once again it is good to hear from you and HOT & HUMID -..........Atlanta....!!!!!
I know that ZPTO should not ever happen !!! ( but) OPTO should dissapear as well... nice hearing from you again !!!!
Also..... lets get rid of those insane card machines on MATRA buses........enjoy some Chick Fil A for me ......!!!!!!
Not that type of safety, but people getting trapped in the doors or getting left on the platform. A real, LIVE conductor can reopen the doors in these situations.
I asked the question if Paris had sensors of some sort that would prevent people from getting chopped in half. At Hartsfield, the trains are always packed, hardly anyone ever gets caught in the door. If they do, the doors usually reopen halfway for a brief second. Also, the automated voice gives plenty of warning that the "doors are closing and will not reopen, please wait for the next train."
I don't recall if the Meteor-Line 14 had door sensors. Apparently the line is not so busy yet to be seriously crowded and the trains run on very frequent headways, despite the lack of a crowd, all day long. Every 90 seconds or so. It was fun to watch them reverse direction at the end of the line completely unattended.
I was at the Tampa airport this weekend and they have a number of short ZPTO people movers which I took some pictures of. Mostly their are airside-landside shuttles that just go back and forth on the same track, but the parking deck has a 5 or 6 car system that services 6 stops in the parking areas. It was almost like a horizontal elevator with mutiple elevator cars in a loop. Pretty neat actually. Pictures soon.
The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the tunnel, obstacle on the track and so forth. TOs can spot these things and slow or stop a train very quickly.
Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it and keeps on going.
Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.
-Daniel
First of all the TO is only usefull if he is in the same care as the passenger. On r-68's 6 out of the 8 cars are might as well be ZPTO. As for tourists, A platform Kiosk will be just as useful. You may also have a phone on these Kiosks. NYC should be moving to Full OPTO. Images from platform cameras Could be displayed on a heads up display in the TO boothe. Each car or doorway would be equipted with it's own camera. Doorways with an obstruction will remain in the TO display so that he may open and close the door. This system would be safer than the current sysytem and provide for an easier job for the TO. This could be Phased in over time with the addition of new railcars. This would allow safe operation and efficent operation.
Same as Philly's Market-Frankford line.
NO! Full OPTO is horrible. We have it in Chicago, and rides that used to take 30 minutes now take 40 or more. IT'S HORRIBLE!
I am familar with Chicargo having gone to college there (great town). The OPTO System is not implimented well. The new cars in NYC have computerized door controls that only reopen the door being held. The system I am preposing would not cause any delays. The TO will see everything the current conductor sees only better. Properly deployed technology Improves our lives. Improperly deployed technoligy is expensive and useless. If deployed properly OPTO can be a very efficent, safe operation.
Thank you very much for your support! Where have all
the other railfans been?
......I have always supported you there in Chicago I still would like to shoot a vidieo there ....
did you like the vidieos I sent you ??
I received all the videos. They are fantastic.
[The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the
tunnel, obstacle on the track and so forth.]
It's not like there is one set program for the trains and that's it. If track work has to be done, someone in the computer control room can reroute trains or whatever. Also, I guess the reason for platform doors is that it will prevent crap (trash, humans) from ending up on the track. Maybe an override control panel could be (or is) installed on ZPTO trains so security officers could stop a train for emergencies.
[Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it
and keeps on going.]
An automatic operating system always has a control centre. The train doesn't know but passenger does. Ther are communication facilities and emergency brake on the train, passengers can use it.
[Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.]
Imformation in the station is important even OPTO because TO will concentare on operating train. So as ZPTO it is even important.
[The whole efficiency thing sounds great, but there is very little control when it comes to things like track workers in the tunnel,
obstacle on the track and so forth. TOs can spot these things and slow or stop a train very quickly.]
IR scanner should be installed in front of the train, so that if there is any obstacle on the track in a distance, it will stop. Also, platform edge doors must be installed because for the safety reason.
[Also, if there is an emergency on the train such as a sick passenger, terrorist, a fight, fire, etc., the automated train dosen't know it and keeps on going.]
An automatic operating system always has a control centre. The train doesn't know but passenger does. Ther are communication facilities and emergency brakes on the train, passengers can use them.
[Another drawback is for tourists or people that don't know how to get around. Since train conductors would be gone, there would be no one to ask for directions or information regarding service.]
Imformation in the station is important even OPTO because TO will concentare on operating train. So as ZPTO it is even important.
ZPTO would also put thousands of people out of work, endanger the lives of passangers, and the prohibative cost of retrofitting the entire NYC subway system with the equipment to do this would ensure the fiscal demise of the entire system.
Bad idea, bad, bad idea. And I'm no fan of the TWU here ....
I guess you missed the part where I said ZPTO or even OPTO wouldn't happen in NYC anytime soon :-)
It would be phased in over a long period of time.
The costs would be more than amortized by the savings in labor.
What about all of those conductors in every car like on the Q cars?
Technology has always made previously important jobs obsolete. Then why is it with the much higher population today than in 1900, the unemployment rate hasn't changed much?
[It would be phased in over a long period of time.
The costs would be more than amortized by the savings in labor.
What about all of those conductors in every car like on the Q cars?
Technology has always made previously important jobs obsolete. Then why is it with the much higher population today than in 1900, the unemployment rate hasn't changed much?]
That's a nice way of putting it.
In a healthy economy, you *don't* help people by creating unnecessary jobs--you pay people to do useless work when there are lots of useful things they could be doing. The City desperately needs a Second Avenue subway and more subway and bus service. Seems to me it would make more sense to hire people to do things like that!
Josh Hill:
There was once a ZPTO on the 42nd St. shuttle from the period of December 1961 to March 1964 when the SAM as the Automated shuttle train was called when it was set on fire.
BMTJeff
It was never ZPTO, the union managed to force the TA to have a TO sit there, IN THE PASSENGER CABIN! How useless.
Pigs of Royal Island:
At least in practice the SAM was a ZPTO. I never knew that there was a TO in the passenger cabin and you're right that a TO in the passenger is useless although more useful than the TA management.
BMTJeff
[Josh Hill:
There was once a ZPTO on the 42nd St. shuttle from the period of December 1961 to March 1964 when the SAM as the Automated shuttle train was called when it was set on fire.
BMTJeff]
I've noticed.
[ZPTO would also put thousands of people out of work, endanger the lives of passangers, and the prohibative cost of retrofitting the entire NYC subway system with the equipment to do this would ensure the fiscal demise of the entire system.
Bad idea, bad, bad idea. And I'm no fan of the TWU here .... ]
ZPTO would save lives--the lives of people who fall/are pushed/wander onto the tracks--and the cost of retrofitting the system would easily be paid for by labor savings. That, after all, is why we automate things. But you're right about putting people out of work; heaven forbid we should stop paying people to do unnecessary jobs, and spend the money instead on people doing useful jobs that would benefit the people of the City . . .
[I was looking at the Paris section of this site and I'm fascinated by Line 14 of the Metro. I like the way the Paris train cars are connected to form a single "tube" to see all the way down the whole train. The only experinece I have had with ZPTO is with the shuttle at Hartsfield Airport. To me, ZPTO is an extremely efficent means of transportation. With it, you can run trains very frequently throughout the whole day and have no human invovlment. This means lower operating costs, faster turning around of trains, and perhaps running trains closer together. Also ZPTO allows for a huge railfan window up front. The computer systems used appear to be reliable, since out of all my years of traveling in and out of Hartsfield, only once did the computers fail when I was on a train. Everyone had to walk to the concourses instead.
Here are some questions I have. In Paris, when line 14 gets croweded, are there any types of sensors to hold the doors open longer? Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone? On London's new Jubilee line, they also have platform edge doors, could they be planning ahead for making their subway ZPTO one day? I know NYC won't have ZPTO anytime soon, or even OPTO, but what about other US cities, do you think that one day ZPTO will be a reality some day? What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?]
LOL, if the MTA operated the City's elevators each one would be staffed with one guy to operate the doors and another to operate the handle, and they'd be spending $140,000,000 on a pilot project to equip some elevators with buttons, to be operated by the same two operators. After all, there might be a kid in the shaft, or a passenger could get sick.
ZPTO is truly a no-brainer. It's the sort of capital expenditure a business makes--one that pays for itself, interest and all. It would significantly increase safety--platform doors would prevent people from falling in front of trains and human error would be virtually eliminated. It would reduce headways and provide a more comfortable ride. And you could operate near peak level service 24 hours a day at very low cost, reducing travel time significantly and increasing ridership. But the MTA won't even go to OPTO, which would require nothing more than the installation of a few monitors . . .
Well, I guess MTA would say (if they were off the record so they would not provoke the TWU) that they are moving in a slow, incremental fashion. CBTC is s l o w l y being implemented, in theory. Considering the meltdown on MUNI in SF, I think their caution is well placed - but perhaps excessive.
ZPTO would certainly require a LOT of capital expenditure. Even without NY's inflated capital costs, I am guessing Billions. Not to sneeze at.
What is the state of OPTO today? I thought it was the legislature that killed that, though, not MTA.
BTW - imagine not being able to lean over the tracks to see whether a train was coming and watch it come in :(
"BTW - imagine not being able to lean over the tracks to see whether a train was coming and watch it come in :("
Which is a dangerous, foolish thing to do. Better to have London style electronic signs and announcements that tell you where the next train is and when it will arrive, along with the whereabouts of the train behind it.
The legislature killed OPTO? That's a new one on me!
I suppose you could say the MTA is moving incremementally, meaning that by the time we see it we'll be dead . . . they're putting CBTC on the L and then the Lex.
Incremental to the TA means geological to anyone else; their schedule for CBTC is laughable. But the economics of ZPTO are excellent. If they were a business, they'd borrow and spend the money they needed if and when the economics justified it; instead, they're spending tons on CBTC *without* ZPTO, which is a bit like buying a fancy new fleet of buses but no gas. Same thing with the Metrocard machines; they're spending a fortune to automate fare collection, but they plan to keep the token agents. It's fairly senseless.
Chicago agents no longer handle money or sell tickets but they're on the station as customer assistants. Does that make any sense? They also have OPTO now. Thjere's a ZPTO on one Paris Metro line, likewise the Dockland's light railway (elevated) in London. Managements public and private both reducing the number of decent paying jobs all the time....are we going to become a society of professionals, execs, and the rest will have nothing but low paying jobs? Looks that way. And it isn't only the rails... almost all consumer goods are imported from low-wage countries.
Are all of the Chicago agents as attractive as Sandra Bullock in that movie "While You Were Sleeping"?
If they're young enough.. sure. I met a black lady agent at Quincy and Wells once who made me wish (on sight anyway) that I'd be in town longer. Sweet gal too; if nothing else Chi folks have a nice attitude as a rule.
Ed;
You are seeing the reversal of the trend started by Henry Ford when he raised workers' pay to make a market for the Model T. There has ben a growing gap between workers' pay and professional, highly skilled technical and management pay.
The new capitalist theory is it is alright to let the unskilled jobs go to third world countries, and we in the US will have only highly skilled jobs. The flaw with that theory is the poor educational sytem and some of the social conditions in this country leave us with a pool of unskilled or semi-skilled workers. Unless jobs with a living wage are found for these people, there must be a transfer system (a dole) to get money to them or we will again see civil unrest.
[You are seeing the reversal of the trend started by Henry Ford when he raised workers' pay to make a market for the Model T. There has ben a growing gap between workers' pay and professional, highly skilled technical and management pay.
The new capitalist theory is it is alright to let the unskilled jobs go to third world countries, and we in the US will have only highly skilled jobs. The flaw with that theory is the poor educational sytem and some of the social conditions in this country leave us with a pool of unskilled or semi-skilled workers. Unless jobs with a living wage are found for these people, there must be a transfer system (a dole) to get money to them or we will again see civil unrest.]
I think the possible repercussions are way worse than that. So far, the growth of the economy has been sufficient to keep demand high. But if workers' wages are driven down too far, demand will fall off, and that will lead to worldwide depression.
It seems to me we should have a dual tarriff program, involing elimination of tariffs between industrialized countries, and sliding tariffs on goods and services from third world countries. But it ain't gonna happen unless we have some kind of economic disaster (and then they'll probably do the wrong thing anyway).
[Chicago agents no longer handle money or sell tickets but they're on the station as customer assistants. Does that make any sense? They also have OPTO now. Thjere's a ZPTO on one Paris Metro line, likewise the Dockland's light railway (elevated) in London. Managements public and private both reducing the number of decent paying jobs all the time....are we going to become a society of professionals, execs, and the rest will have nothing but low paying jobs? Looks that way. And it isn't only the rails... almost all consumer goods are imported from low-wage countries.]
I think there are two issues here--automation, which increases productivity, and the internationalization of the economy, which throws a lot of unskilled labor into the overall job pool and drives down wages for low level workers relative to skilled ones. Both of course have some effects in common but I don't think they're identical. In the case of the subways, though, I don't think any of these arguments apply. There are plenty of unskilled/semi-skilled jobs that need doing on the subway. Let me flip the argument: would you rather have a token clerk standing around doing nothing, or have someone fixing a drip or digging a new subway line? That's the tradeoff here as far as I'm concerned.
I would have to agree. If less people work for the transit agencies, then our taxes will be paying for less, and Robert Cote would have less to complain about. Also, if transit systems ran at an operating profit, or had a better fare/recovery ratio, then people may be more willing to give it capital financing.
[I would have to agree. If less people work for the transit agencies, then our taxes will be paying for less, and Robert Cote would have less to complain about. Also, if transit systems ran at an operating profit, or had a better fare/recovery ratio, then people may be more willing to give it capital financing.]
LOL, why do I get the feeling that Robert would complain even if national transit subsidies amounted to 23 cents? But you're right. The thing is, some transit systems could run at a profit if they were privatized and received a subsidy equal to what roads get (35% from general revenues in New York, apparently). But with the government running things they never will. It's politically easier just to buy peace with the unions and never build anything instead. To me the really sad thing is that if we had reasonable work rules and the freedom to hire people on the basis of need, workers wouldn't take home any less. The same guy who runs a token booth wouldn't necessarily lay the floor tiles for a new station, but somebody would. Everybody would benefit--the riders, because there'd be more money for capital investment, higher service, and/or lower fares, and the workers, because there would be more jobs!
I thought that there were trains that go OPTO like the West End Shuttle at nights and the G on weekends.
There are half length OPTO trains that double the frequency of service during off hours.
Doubling the number of trains w/ half the cars does nothing for relieving the crowding !!!!
That isn't the point. The point is to decrease waiting time, which is the worst part of a mass transit system over "On-demand transport" (a car).
That's not what it's for, just to increase frequency in off peak periods. Crowded trains don't get cut in half.
Does anyone have any safety data on vancouver sky train, line 14 or other people movers?
As for my views, it seems quite hard work it on lines as crowded as the new york subways, but seems like a good goal for lines like PATCO, or other shorter lines whose vehicles do not get too crowded.
[Any sensors to make sure doors don't close on anyone?}
A touch sensor is installed on the door I think.
[What are some opinions regarding ZPTO?]
Good for shuttle or the line which has it's right of way (means no other kind of service (like express) run on the line), bad for long line like New York City Subway Line (There must have an operator to supervise, as SCAEM system.).
The MTA's plan to spend million on running fiber optic cables for PA anousements is stupid. The MTA can have these cabled installed FREE. Transit agencies and railroads around the nations are contracting with communications companies to install fiber optics along there ROW. They are paying for this privalage. Alowing a communications company to run fiber optics along subway and commuter rail row's is a win win proposition for the MTA anf NYS. For the MTA it allows them to use new technologies that will bring great efficencies such as centalized communications including platform video survailence, information kiosks, passenger info dispalys, and a host of other features and most important $$$$$$
For NYS it will provide and infrastructure for the 21th century. It will allow more high tech firms to locate within the region and close to mass transit(a win win)
06/04/2000
On this crisp sunny day, I changed at 74th and Roosevelt from the (R) to ride into Grand Central. I made it a must to pick out an R-33 single and boarded #9316. Ahh yes!....Roaring axiflow fans drowning out PA announcements and open storm doors brought back memories when there was no A/C. So when are the R-33's like the 10 R-32 GE's going into summertime hibernation? If it were 85 degrees, I naturally would have opted for an air conditioned married pair unit!
BTW- I checked out the station rehabbing at Grand Central (7) and I found out what those round circular flaired things hanging from the ceiling are. They are to support large fans to move the hot air about. The only one I saw was at the western end of the platform where one escalator is out for rebuilding. The stainless steel station signs leave me cold, could have come up with something better.
Bill "Newkirk"
question to mr ""newkirk"" When the ac DIES on the new 142s & 143s will you complain as much as you did on this last post ??
06/06/2000
Salaam,
You may have me confused with someone else, I never complained about A/C or fans. Just waxing poetic about a soon to vanish staple on the subways, the last piece of equipment with fans.
Bill "Newkirk"
All cars have fans, even the R-142.
On cars from R40AC and up, the blowers (fans) are NOT visible in the cars (as delivered). Cars which have had A/C retrofitted (R32, R38, Slant R40 Non AC) also have blowers (fans) to circulate the air which are also not visible.
wayne
The R-33 Singles usually are taken out of customer service around the first week of July.
06/06/2000
[The R-33 Singles usually are taken out of customer service around the first week of July.]
Since this all depends on the R-142/A and their success and subsequent deliveries, if the R-36WF's are the first to be retired, could this be the last summer of the R-33 singles?
Bill "Newkirk"
I sure hope so!
What idiotic company would retire the newer cars first? They are way better than the other redbirds, the only ones which look decent both inside and out (R26-29 rusty on the outside, R33ML has peeling interior paint). They are also brighter because the TA didn't screw up and get rid of the center lighting track.
They also still flicker on and off, which is still oodles of fun, especially watching the "wave."
It must be great from the street at night, better than traffic lights. I've always have a kick of riding the end of a green light wave. I never got to do it myself (or I think I did last Saturday night).
06/08/2000
Henry,
I was told that Flushing cars (R-33/36) would be the first to go since they had the earliest general overhaul (1983). But since this is the TA we're talking about, that can always change.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Redbirds are apparently being considered as one fleet and will be retired according to condition, not age or time of General Overhaul (GOH).
David
Friday night, I had the opportunity to check out the progress of the Air train. Pretty amazing compared with the snails pace of subway construction. It seems to me that this type of committment and energy is what's needed in several Long island areas. Specifically, I'm referring to a North-South route through Mineola, Roosevelt field Nassau Colliseum area etc. in Nassau. Similarly in Suffolk, north-south from Islip along Carlton Ave. to the new Court Complex, through the various industrial areas and looping through the Ronkonkoma Hub and into macArthur airport. This seems a natural solution to the new eastern 'Silicon Valley' springing up in Islandia. If the PA can do it with such relative speed, it would seem to me, all Long Island needs is the committment.
[Friday night, I had the opportunity to check out the progress of the Air train. Pretty amazing compared with the snails pace of subway construction. It seems to me that this type of committment and energy is what's needed in several Long island areas. Specifically, I'm referring to a North-South route through Mineola, Roosevelt field Nassau Colliseum area etc. in Nassau. Similarly in Suffolk, north-south from Islip along Carlton Ave. to the new Court Complex, through the various industrial areas and looping through the Ronkonkoma Hub and into macArthur airport. This seems a natural solution to the new eastern 'Silicon Valley' springing up in Islandia. If the PA can do it with such relative speed, it would seem to me, all Long Island needs is the committment.]
I read recently that the PA has a good rep when it comes to construction projects, and this tends to confirm that.
Hmm. Do you thin kthey would like to build the 2nd Ave. subway for the MTA? The LIRR to GCT connection?
Hope this on lasts longer than the one in Newark...
The problem is underground construction in a congested area filled with affluent lawyers -- a triple whammy. Elevated construction will always be cheaper.
Money spent on this was wasted. The right of way which should have been used is the old abandoned LIRR Rockaway branch tracks, which would have avoided community protests, cleared up a large stretch of unused land, and put some bridges back into use. The right of way still sits idle, and why it is being wasted like this is a mystery to me.
It certainly would not have avoided community protests, it would have attracted the ire of affluent people vs. poor people.
True. Most people don't know how quiet a train can be. When I went to Newark last week to check on the monorail progress, I got within a few feet of the NEC tracks. I could barely hear the NJT and Amtrak trains as they went by. I suppose it depends on the quality of the track work and cars.
Ballast roadbed is a big help; don't believe there's any left inthe subway. Stand on Queens Blvd. by the Flushing el you'll see the difference. Car construction makes a difference too. The r9 types made less noise on Jamaica Ave. than the newer stuff did, the AB's quieter yet.
There's still some ballast, here and there.
Great idea and if this was an MTA project, the old MTA ROW could have been used. However, this was a PA project. Since the Mayor and the Governor both hold the PA in less than the heighest esteem, it's likely that the PA would not have been given an easier way to go. In fairness, this is the most dierct route and leaves the LIRR ROW open for future development.
The city favored the Rockaway route. It has been defeated by 30 years by a few affluent homeowners on the right of way in Queens.
Meanwhile, the direct to Manhattan route would not serve Long Island, which is given far greater consideration than the city in any state decision.
The Port Authority sees the Airtrain as an extended on-airport circulation system. Thus, from its point of view, those boarding the subway or LIRR at Jamaica do have a direct connection to the "airport," and just need to get on the internal circulation system to get to their particular terminal. After riding the internal circulation system at the Orlando Airport, I see their point -- except for the $5.00 charge, which is inexcusible.
I was under the impression that the $5.00 charge was just for people transfering from the A train. They're not going to give LIRR passengers a free transer?
(I was under the impression that the $5.00 charge was just for people transfering from the A train. They're not going to give LIRR passengers a free transer?)
If they were to give those transferring from the commuter railroad a free transfer, but charge $5.00 for those getting off the subway, the result would be outrage like you've never seen.
If the Port Authority didn't need to maximize it's airport profits to cover the low PATH fare and keep tolls lower than TBTA tolls, it could afford a $1.50 fee for all transfers, which would probably be fair.
[Hmm. Do you thin kthey would like to build the 2nd Ave. subway for the MTA? The LIRR to GCT connection?]
Funny, I've had the same thought. Perhaps when New Jersey Transit takes over the LIRR!
Train Dude, I'm going to agree completely with your comments. I two have been impressed at how fast they got thing going. At the MTA/TA they seem to like a lot more "studies" and "plans". Folks here seem to love to knock the Port Auth., but they obviously do some things right/better.
BTW, this responce has nothing to do with the placement of the Air Train route or that it's a "light rail".
(just thought I'ld add that so we don't start "that" thread all over again)
Mr t__:^)
I don't think the problem is the PA itself, but rather state politicians who would rather feud than do what's right.
06/06/2000
Years ago an idea was floated about to connect the Far Rockaway, West Hempstead and Oyster branches and a conversion to light rail. This of course was shot down, maybe one or two NIMBY's spoke too loudly!
This of course was before "Light Rail Fever". But don't hold your breath, ain't gonna happen!
Bill "Newkirk"
....I found an excellent website on this subject of the Lost Angeles RED LINE anti subway page ....!!!!
********* http//mtla.com/ ****** or you can go to """yahoo""" enter in the search engine in small letters ( mta ) & scroll
down until you find this anti- Los Angeles mta site http//mtala.com/ ...........................................
Unlike the the pablum and B.S. you get on the ""official"" sites here you get the truth from the real transit riders....!!!
persons like myself who are mad as hell ........!!!!
Salaam, The Red Lines does not go to NoWhere, It Servces Downtown, the Wilshire District East Hollywood and Hollywood and soon Universal City, Maybe because it is where you don t go it is to Nowhere, but plenty of people live in those areas who will use it in the future. It is like sayin Fred s Sea Beach Goes nowhere, tell that to people in Brooklyn who use it
Technically you are correct. The Red line will carry some passengers but it will not be a successful subway.
Picture if you can NYC somehow struggling without subways, depending only on private autos and public surface transport, and then one subway line is opened following the route of the "7" line from Times Square to Hunters Point Ave. Although it would not be a subway to nowhere it would not be a success. This is what the Red Line is to L.A. The powers that be have determined that there should be no more subways built in L.A., and one realtively short subway line will never be a rapid transit system.
The line is that short?
Not even Queensborough Plaza?
It is not so much the physical length as it is that the Red Line stops at the pass between the San Fernando Valley and the Los Angeles Basin. The hills between the Los Angeles basin and the Valley are a barrier similar to the East River. The line does not extend into the population centers in the San Fernando Valley. That's why I suggested that it would stop short of Queensborough Plaza.
Will be about 15 miles when completed
.......why arent the red green & blue lines all compatible ...??
Because the Green and Blue are Light Rail and the Red is Heavy Rail. Like why is Muni SF and Bart not compatible, 2 different seperate types of systems.
......NO .....the RED LINE ( subway to nowhere ) is considered heavy rail & the BLUE & GREEN lines is considered
.......Light Rail ......according to LA- MTA .....the G.D. idiots they are here in lost angeles ..........
I am told the difference is where the power is picked up .....makes no sense to me .!!!!
Not to mention gauge. MUNI is standard gauge (electric streetcars), BART is 5' 6".
The cable gauge is 42", we will not consider this in a compatabilty list.
.....Ok .....I dont totally disagree with you there however answer as to why the L.A. M..T.A. installs a subway type rail system
but it is not compatible with the BLUE & GREEN lines........
The RED LINE is a whole in the ground ""The Subway to Nowhere""....and the RED LINE Subway cars cannot run on the
BLUE & GREEN lines..... Why didnt the la. mta. build a system with all three lines cross compatible ?????
......excuse some of my spelling ....
I believe that rather than ask for your spelling to be excused, you use the arrow a and backspace keys and, while rereading you statements, fix the errors so it is more legible.
The Red line originally would have had a couple of branches to some of the more populated and heavy traffic areas, like west on Wilshire and along the Hollywood Freeway corridor. The Blue and Green lines are smaller capacity lines, built along freeway or railroad Rights of way mainly. I think the RTA realized too late that everything should have been light rail, but it was too late to change the plans without jeopardizing funding from the Federal government. Some states try to get along without much federal funding and get to create what they really want, like the Light Rail in Baltimore and many roads in Virginia.
........there is no ''spell check"" like there is on my yahoo mail so get off my back about spelling every single word to your
standards ...& as long as I understand what some one saays or types I leave enough alone ALSO when you turn 50
your eyes dont see into a computer tv screen as well as they did when you were 20 .!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now ""the dirt on los angeles rail & especially the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE is how many lost thier homes businesses
& even became homeless & on welfare & still havent recieved reperations & payment at all for all of thier suffering here !!
They knew they should have built a mostly outdoor system like was once was here back in the 1950s '...
They also FAILED MISERABLE to go to LAX los angeles airport dodger stadium the coliseum & anahiem stadium
the BLUE LINE will ber broken up into two totally different segments with NO CONNECTION TO THE LONG BEACH
BLUE LINE THRUWAY........and no runs on freeways except the green line which refuses to go to the airport !!!..
When all of this ( excuse me ) SH---it.... was being planned they deleberately overbuilt underbuilt & messed up the whole
thing with everyone except the transit dependent getting ......FREE CORPORATE KICKBACK WELFARE MONEY......
I could go on it makes me so dammed mad !!! Did you understand what i said mr ""spell-check""?????
No, there's no spell check ... but for those of us that know how in the first place, that's not a problem :-)
No offense, Salaam, but there are a number of folks out there who should really proofread before pushing the "Post Message" button.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
.....I am sorry I try sometimes i catch it when it is too late like my last post in which i thought i finally got it right..
today either i did not eat my wheates or missed my starbucks cup of coffee... maybe i should get a new pair
of glasses......... etc.........gee im getting old and weary ...........( thank you ) .....
salaamallah;
Try preparing your post in a word processor that does have a spell check and then transfer the edited text to message box. That works well, particularly when you have a long post.
I have a g old type i mac and an old mac 600 i guess i will have to learn how to do this transfer as i can do with my
"" yahoo e mail -compose "" its easy there also i tried to transfer a jpeg and gif image to the message here
And failed miserable ...............still learning this computer stuff ......!!!! ........thank you .......
I hate to seem argumentative but I am 49, nearsighted, and left-handed.
Ha Carl, I've got you beat all to hell. I'm 59, nearsighted and left handed, what do you think of those apples?
Hey Carl & Fred,
I've got you both beat. I'm 64, originally farsighted, now wearing strong tri-focals, and I have only been left-handed for the past seven years.
Let me tell you, it is tough to learn how to write left-handed after being a righty all of my life!
Sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but what caused your right hand to become unusable?
It's called "Primary Writing Tremor", apparently very rare. It's a type of Parkinson's, but not the same. I still have the use of my right hand, it's just that I can't write with it, or paint models, or any kind of fine detail work. Whenever I try, it shakes so bad that you cannot read the results!
OK, Karl, I concede, you're the champion. And the Dean of the railfans, I believe.
Hey Fred, I'm no champion or dean of railfans, You guys know more subway transit than I ever did during the time I was an active subway fan.
The best thing that can probably said about me is that I am an old guy who still loves the subways!
Ha Carl, I've got you beat all to hell. I'm 59, nearsighted and left handed, what do you think of those apples? But Salaam is right. The Red Line doesn't go to the Coliseum, it does't go to Dodger Stadium, the Blue line doesn't go to Pasadena, and the Green Line stops short of the LA Airport (LAX). I mean is this going things ass backwards or what?
Thank you very much sir : ( mr sea beach ) I do want to re -visit this subject many times ......BITCH...COMPLAIN...etc...
on this subject many times in the future & I am very thankful to the webmanster, Mr . Pirmann and NYC subway resources inc...& giving thanks to all who have suppoeted & understood what I was try-ing to add to this fine message forum ......
So I can along with others ""tell it like it really is" So that the REAL DIRT of ""The myth of public transit in los angeles "..
can finally be told !!!! Today on the tv news it was announced in China Town that the PASADENA BLUE LINE .........
I finally going to be built ?? And the doto do nothing STEALTH mayor riordan shows up with his zero speech etc...
We have heard this Bull- Sh----it before right ?? Like the long beach 710 finally being completed ..( hold your breath )
Also check out the pasadena blue line webpages for a real laugh and the no BLAG anti blue line page ..all on yahoo..
enter "" pasadena blue line "" on your general search on ""yahoo"" & then read the pro & con on this crazy madness !!
( please excuse any of my spelling errors thank you ....) .........
Yes but it now goes to Universal Studios, the Valley(The IMportant Valley, not the Smog Valley, and most important HOLLY-WEIRD, and what is a 2 block walk to the Staples Center. from the blue
well the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE ......the pico station 3 block away and almost un-acessable & no direrct acess etc.
with the 7 th & metro center downstairs transfer to the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE.....to the north.......
the..... LONG BEACH BLUE line will stop there you have to transfer to the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE.....about a few stations on the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE then transfer to .......
two stations to the union station ( AND )......headache......headache......headache.......headache...................
The future so called PASADENA BLUE LINE.......( same system as the long beach blue line - no connection )......!!!!
To the south you can ride thru the 1992 & 1965 riot torn territorry express & local ... all the way to LONG BEACH....
But......at what time does the system stop ? ??? after 11.00 pm forget it... you are stranded.....Good luck.....!!
SALAAM WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYIN THE RED LINE TO NO WHERE? BECAUSE YOU DON T USE IT, WILSHIRE, HOLLYWOOD AND NO HOLLYWOOD ARE NO WHERE?
Bob;
In the grand scheme of things Hollywood is a tourist destination (the movie, TV and recording studios people think of as "Hollywood" are no longer concentrated there), and not that important to daily commuters, the part of Wilshire the Red Line goes to is definately the less desirable part. It does not really go to North Hollywood, but Universal City, home of the tourist attraction Universal Studios. This is at the mouth of the San Fernando Valley, and commuters to downtown from most of the San Fernando Valley would still have a long frustrating drive to get there. Most of those who would think of commuting on public transportation are doing so on Metrolink.
The Red line is great for tourists staying in downtown Los Angeles, and by all means vistors should try it, but relatively few Angelinos will use it.
all of the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE stations were far too overbuilt too fancy & too costly ....!!
So....I'm 51, nearsighted and left-handed. That and $1.35 will get you a ride on the Light Rail.
......a follow up comment .......Check this out....When the pasadena BLUE LINE is finished it will not CONNECT to
the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE .....you will have to transfer thru the red line at least 2 two stations.............
How dumb can you get .........check out the anti - lamta site on yahoo.........
Hi,
What is the shortest above-ground stretch (elevated or open cut)
of subway line in Brooklyn?
Thanks,
Dave
Well, it requires a stretch of the imagination, but I'd say it's the Fourth Avenue line, for less than a block between the 59th Street and Bay Ridge Avenue stations. The line is carried over the Bay Ridge Branch on what is essentially a covered bridge.
David
That's a real stretch, in fact, it does the splits. You can catch only a glipse of daylight on your right side. There is no daylight on the left side and the train never sees daylight, only the passenger who gets a glimpse of it. The West End that emerges from the tunnel after 36th street comes out for a moment or two, then goes back into a tunnel for a couple of hundred yards before it emerges outside again at 9th Avenue. That, to be, would be more legitimate for the shortest amount of daylight between tunnels.
Hi,
What is the shortest above-ground stretch (elevated or open cut)
of subway line in Brooklyn?
Thanks,
I would think that it would be the southbound 14 Street Line track at Wilson Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When the West End line peels off from the 4th Avenue mainline south of 36th Street station, it runs through an open cut for one block between 4th and 5th Avenues before returning to tunnel (under the 38th Street yards) until just north of 9th Avenue station.
Who has the right of way? If a emergency vehicle and a train meet at a crossing, I assume a train has the ROW even if they make a station stop the vehicle has to wait. Am I correct?
If a emergency vehicle goes around the gate and it collides with the train, its the vehicles fault?
I assume there is a federal law giving rail traffic the ROW.
I don't know what laws may be applicable, but ... here's my experience with this. Back in the '60s the NYC Hudson Division had a grade crossing adjacent to the New Hamburg station (it may still be a grade crossing, I just haven't been down there since then). The New Hamburg fire department was just down the street. If an emergency vehicle approached the crossing and a train was coming, the train was expected to stop short of the crossing, or clear the crossing AT SPEED before stopping, as appropriate. This occasionally resulted in a train backing up to make its station stop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In places where underpasses or overpasses are available, emergency vehicles will aviod rail crossings, even if they have to go a few blocks out of the way to the underpass or overpass. I recall this from the time my son dislocated his knee and had to be transported by ambulance to the ER. Even though he did not need to be "rushed" to the ER, the ambulance went 5 or 6 blocks out of the way to use the underpass under the RR tracks rather than take the most direct route via a grade crossing.
-- Ed Sachs
Two programs of interest coming up, one dealing with world subways/metros on Discovery, the other dealing with Underground New York on the Travel Channel:
On the Inside: Subways
Tunneling deep beneath modern cities across the globe, subways, metros and other sub-surface rail systems stand as incredible feats of engineering. The stories of how they were conceived and planned are no less amazing.
Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
DISCOVERY CHANNEL Jun 9 2000 8:00 PM
DISCOVERY CHANNEL Jun 9 2000 11:00 PM
----------------------------------------------------
Mega Tech: Below New York
The underworld of New York City, larger than the city above, is a critical factor in what makes this city tick. Learn what's there and what it takes to keep The Big Apple going.
Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 11 2000 9:00 PM
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 11 2000 12:00 MID.
TRAVEL CHANNEL Jun 17 2000 6:00 PM
Hi Steve:
I just wanted to send this note to sincerely thank you and everyone involved in your first show for the tremendous and extremely professional effort put into it. I do want to let you know everyone - but most especially the dealers - that I've spoken to has felt the same way. You have certainly proven that such a show does not have to be in an expensive, sometimes difficult-to-reach, location to be successful, and you may rest assured that I will make every effort to have additional dealers and attendees at any future shows you may have. It is comforting to know you are so readily open to suggestion and do not just render lip service.
And, just as a reminder of what we had spoken about, I am again suggesting the renting of a school along the Flushing Line, making your show public transit accessible to far more people. Another thought might be to rent a portion of the New York City Transit Museum's mezzanine area. If you needing any scouting for locations, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Again, my sincere thanks for your unparalleled effort.
Best regards,
Joe Saitta
As the IND emerges from underground after the Church Ave station, you find some poles intact along McDonald Avenue next to the cut, some still with wire remnants attached. Are these remnants of the trolley that used to run there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
If this is by Cortelyou Road or Ditmas, chances are those are remnants of the poles for the overhead powered locos of the South Brooklyn Railway Co.(like #6 Steeplecab at CI Yards).
Did you get any pics?
BTW, there are trolley poles near the intersection of Ave. N and Utica Ave. (a BMT trolley barn used to sit on the current site of "Power Park" playground and the Flatbush Bus depot right behind it).
There is a lone pole over on Tillary Street at the intersection with Cadman Plaza West (aka Court Street).
Of course trolley poles abound at Rockaway Parkway and Glenwood Road.
Doug aka BMTman
Cadman Plaza West at Tillary was once Fulton Street, not Court Street.
Does the South Brooklyn Railway Still exist? If not what is used instead
Yes, the South Brooklyn Railway still operates, but it's street trackage currently consists of a single track that runs between the interchange yard at 39th and 2nd Ave. and the 4th Ave. tunnel portal connecting to the West End line. The diesels, N1 and N2, run over the West End (B train) route to get to Coney Island Yards.
McDonald Ave. street running ended in the early 80's when the DOT repaved the Avenue. And since most -- if not all -- of SBK's original McDonald Ave. clients are not longer there, the street ROW was seen as unnecessary.
At the present time, the SBK (as far as I know) does not have any clients outside of the NYCT (it's parent company). The freight moves are pretty much limited to hauling new and/or old equipment to/from the waterfront areas and distribution of same throughout the system.
Doug aka BMTman
Those line poles were for the McDonald Ave. (Gravesend Ave.) trolley whose tracks hugged both sides of the ramp in the last years of operation.
I am a 29 year old avid railroad/subway fan who is interested in old trains, old subway lines, trolly car tracks,abandon stations etc.
I came from Boston and now live in Florida. Even though the Boston Subway was not extensive.. I did get to know it well and am a member of the Boston street railway society. I try to get to thier meetings every few months.
ANYWAYS... I will be visiting New York City at the end of this month and want to know where I can get info on what i should do to locate old lines, stations etc. Now I hate to be a law breaker.. but I have been know to sneak around The Boston transit system a bit..so i am not afraid of a little adventure.
I have been to the transit museum in the Bronx, but I want to see more infrastructure... like tunnels,power systems etc..
Does anyone have any ides? I will be there around June 23-june 26..Are there any meetings then? groups? Any places that would have old pictures? I am bringing my Video camera..
Thanks for any help... I LOVE your web page...
Rob
rodco@rodcogroup.com
The Transit Museum is in Brooklyn.
Most supermarkets
carry "thins"
in aisle 4..
You see, you got off on the wrong foot with your misplaced boroughs and spelling, RODCO :-) Nothing is worse to New Yorkers than out-of-towners who act like they are familiar with NYC things but really are not. It's worse if you "too cavalierly" propose to do things that New Yorkers know are not that easy to do. Sure it's unfair, but it's taught to us at an early age.
I think you should look at the current system -- which is big enough and old enough -- and not look too hard for abandoned stuff. There is not much abandoned stuff that is easily accessible. You can see most abandoned subway stations by riding the lines listed on the Abandoned Stations section and looking out the windows. Abandoned elevated sections have been torn down (except for a little bit at Myrtle-Bway and Gun Hill Road-WPR).
Have fun and enjoy that NY hospitality...
>>>> that NY hospitality <<<<<<
There's an oxymoran for you.
And Quick Draw McGraw will do the thinnin'. (And do-oo-n't you forget it!) :-)
Old trains in the form of diesel - can be found at the Croton Harmon just 33 miles North of Grand Central Station. Take any Croton Harmon (not Croton Falls) bound train to get there. Also keep in mind that the yard is off limits but that much of it can be seen from teh station and bridge over.
You'll undoubtedly find some FL9 (40-43 years old) equipment lingereing around the area - probably in the shops - perhaps some FP10s (52 years old) as well.
If you want to see a big rail yard - close to the city - go to Sunnyside just across from Manhattan in Queens (Long Island City)- easilly accesible from the Vernon/Jackson stop on the #7 train or the 23rd street/Ely avenue stop on the E. Walk up to JAckson AVenue and you'll see everythign from LIRR to NJT and AMTRAK.
Coney Island Yards are massive and full of interesting stuff. I'm not sure you can gain access - but you can get a number of shots just from the side of the yard which is somethng more than a mile by a mile. Some old transit equipment is stored in the yard and you may get shots of it from the right location.
There are lots of ways to get to the Coney Island yard - but for a possible overhead shot - take the F train to Avenue X in Brooklyn to get to the Coney Island yard.
Email me directly for more information.
Try riding the 4 lines to Coney Island, all have different Right of ways and not to much back tracking, also the A to Rockaway
You could go to the Bronx!!!!
I've already said I'm going to visit the Bronx and see all those wonderful places I'm told exist and haven;t seen in my three trips to New York.
[I am a 29 year old avid railroad/subway fan who is interested in old trains, old subway lines, trolly ... car tracks,abandon stations etc. I have been to the transit museum in the Bronx, ...]
First the TA museum is in Brooklyn not the Bronx ... you get a big Bronx cheer for that one :-)
Now for some thing to do:
- NJ = Take PATH to Exchange Place & ride on new HBLR; continue on PATH to Newark & ride Newark City Subway which has some very well preserved PCCs. On the way back go to Hoboken and walk around the commuter rail line station. Be sure to notice Manhattan's skyline on the other side of the river.
- Back in NYC I like the #1 after 110th you're elavated for ONE stop, then go past a underground yard. Get off at 168th & take the foot bridge over the tracks, then the elevator to reach the IND for your return trip.
- Above ground: the lines to Coney Island, J/Z to Jamaica, L to Canarsie & Flushing line are all nice for different reasons. The numbered lines in the Bronx are elavated too.
- Tourist stuff: Take one boat & get both Statue of Libery & Ellis Islands; C/D stops at Museum of Natural History; You can also get to a Yankee or Mets game via the subway.
And remember you need a "Fun Pass" to realy enjoy it all !
Mr t__:^)
And for express runs, the ultimate is the Central Park West run on an A train of R-38s. Those are the cars with the bottom half fluted, electronic route signs up front, and storm door windows you can look through.
In a recent thread someone mentioned that the term "STRAPHANGER" will soon be obsolete. While this is technically correct, I do not believe that the term will ever disappear from the lexicon. With that being said I pose a query: What word would you use to replace "STRAPHANGER" when all the straps are gone??
Peace,
ANDEE
Nothing, the term will be obsolete in that it's etymology will no longer be practically evident. The word will still be used for generations to come. I don't like the straps, but the term doesn't bother me.
If the Department of Subways had any sense, they would attach straps to the bars like on busses. Best of both worlds, satisfies barfans and strapfans.
06/06/2000
[In a recent thread someone mentioned that the term "STRAPHANGER" will soon be obsolete. While this is technically correct, I do not believe that the term will ever disappear from the lexicon]
Well, the old initials IRT,BMT & IND haven't disappeared even though they are considered obsolete. You never hear on the radio of a derailment on the A Division's Lexington Avenue line!
BTW - If the IRT is the "A" Div, the BMT the "B1" Div, and the IND the "B2" Div, does that make Staten Island Railway the "C" division?
Bill "Newkirk"
[BTW - If the IRT is the "A" Div, the BMT the "B1" Div, and the IND the "B2" Div, does that make Staten Island Railway the "C"
division?]
I don't think so. As far as traffic reports go, they never mention the SIR. And technically, its not a subway line. It should be put in the same category as the LIRR and Metro-North. The only similarity it has with the subway system is that it uses BMT R44s, and the Metrocard system. Besides, no one really gives a damn about the SIR. Many New Yorkers probably don't even know that the SIR exists!
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
SIR{T{OA}} is not part of the TA and is not considered one of
the divisions.
The "C" division is jargon used within the TA to refer to work
equipment, the yards that house it, and the personnel who operate
it.
With the introduction of the new brass dollar (New Stupid Dollar Coin or NSDC) the PATCO change machines now only give whole dollar coins, however I still get the old SBA Dollars (Old Stupid Dollar Coin or OSDC) from time to time. I got to thinking and I just ealized that for the 20 years it has existed, the SBA dollar has basically been a subway token used on North eastern transit systems. Minted in Philly, the only people to really use the SBA were area transit systems like PATCO, SEPTA and the MTA. You would change your dollar bill into SBA's and then use the SBA's to buy tokens. The transit auth. would then put the SBA's baque into the change machines and the cycle would continue. If you ever kept an SBA for your self and tried to spend it elsewhere it would usually require an explanation/history lesson on your part on how A) its not a quarter and B) it is real money. I think that for all intents and purposes the SBA dollar was a defacto Subway Token, Token. Exchangeable only for transit tickes sold in vending machines. I see a similar fate for the NSDC.
PS: Did any of you also notice that the government is also cheaping out on cion production as it did in the new bills. Basically the govt. realized that it could save on both engravers and ink if it replaced the beautiful scrollwork with blank space. I think they intend for the average citizen to doddle in the blank space. Sort of like personalizing the money. Likewise the government realized that it could save money by not milling the egdes of the NSDC, thus doing away with the last illusion that our coinage is made of some sort of precious metal. I am also noticing how the NSDC's are already starting to tarnish.
PPS: I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill. Jeez, out money needs to reflect who we are as a nation and we are not a bunch of buildings. We need to have a car somewhere on American currency. They should have replaced it with an SUV like the Excursion.
PPPS: I am also pissed that they got rid of the Federal Reverve bank letter. Now hoe am I going to tell which cities have which bank.
The second letter of the new serial number reflects the FRB (Federal Reserve Bank) That is... A serial number that starts AB... means it is the "first (A) series or Series 1996 currency" and the B represents the Bank of New York. Even though 1996 was the year the $100s came out, This is all considered series 1996 currency, except I beleieve it may now be referred to as series 1998 or 1999 since one of the signatures changed.
And the US Mint homepage mentions the "tarnish" and likens it to copper roofs.
Note: I agree with everything you said. In a past life I was a Credit Union Teller: and had my share of members coming in with $2 and SBA. Our cash handling system was not equipped for that, so we had to enter $2 in as ones, thus messing up the counting machine, and the SBA as two Kennedy Halfs. (Stupid Oversized Way Underused Coin, or SOWUC?)
SOWUC?? MTA STILL!!! gives out the Kennedy half dollar in their LIRR ticket machines. Just give me two quarters for heaven sakes.
[This is all considered series 1996 currency, except I beleieve it may now be referred to as series 1998 or 1999 since one of the signatures changed. ]
According to their web site the change in signature does not make a new series. Major design changes do.
Arti
There are 3 things that will change a series:
A major design change, a change of the Secretary of the Tresury, and running out of serial numbers.
1995 $1 bills, which were not redisgned, are signed by Robert Rubin. 1999 $1 bills are signed by Lawrence Summers (who has the tiniest signature I've ever seen!)
Serial numbers on 'old' bills are 10 places; the first being the letter code for the FRB district that issues the bill, 8 numbers from 0-9, and another letter. 'O' and 'Z' are not used as the last letter, but '*' is used, on a limited basis. For each FRB, there are 108*25, or 2.5 BILLION serial number combinations for each denomination. There are 12 FRB districts, which means each denomination has a possible 30 BILLION serial numbers. With approximately $494,849,791,667 in circulation worldwide (of all denominations), and the average lifespan of a $1 bill being 18 months, it's very reasonable they've run out at several FRBs. Serial numbers are duplicated between series and denominations (ie, you can have a $5 and a $1 with the same serial, as you can have a 1988A $1 and a 1999 $1 with the same serial)
The NEW serial numbers, which have 11 places, have a letter to indicate series (1996=A, 1999=B), a letter to indicate FRB, an 8 digit number, and a non-numeric character, one of the 25. This allows, assuming they don't use 'O', 'Z', or '*' as the first letter, 108*24*25, or 60 BILLION combinations, (if you throw in the FRB letter, 720 BILLION. That's better than the odds for DNA!) for each FRB, and no duplicate serial numbers can exist between series, but they can exist between denominations.
-Hank
The asterisk (*) found on some bills indicates when the Treasury destroys a bill (due to wear, damage, etc) and reassigns that serial number to a new bill.
-- Dave
ccording to Treasury:
When an imperfect note is detected during the manufacturing process after the serial number has been overprinted, it must be replaced with a new note. A "star" note is used to replace the imperfect note. Reusing that exact serial number to replace the imperfect note is costly and time consuming. The "star" note has its own special serial number followed by a star in place of a suffix letter.
The serial number of the imperfect note that was removed is not used again in the same numbering sequence.
"Star" notes are quite common and are not considered collectible items.
Arti
The 18-month lifespan of a $1 bill is all the more reason to have a dollar coin. Coins last a heck of a lot longer and can save the Treasury $$$. I really hope the new dollar coin catches on.
It won't unless the Treasury kills the $1 bill, which it currently says it won't do. People are lothe to get rid of the familiar, and even though the gov't is spending $ to convince us otherwise, it isn't going to work. The coins have been in circulation for some time, I have yet to get one in general circulation, and at our recent Parish fair, where my wife and I are the "Money folks", we only took in 1 gold dollar the whole weekend. The Light Rail and Subway ticket machines are still issuing SBA's as change.
Not only should they get rid of the $1 bill, but they should issue lots of $2 bills along with these $1 coins. This way we only need less than half the number of them and dollar coins can be used as change, since $1 buys what about $.20 did 30 years ago. Not having the $2 bill makes it more difficult to get rid of the $1 bill, since a minimum of 5 coins will be needed to make change of a $5 bill. Every next denomination in most countries is 2 to 2.5 times the previous one. Our major discrepancies are 25 cents to $1 and $1 to $5 because no one want the $2 bills. And while we are at it, we might as well get rid of pennies in cash use, but maintain them in bank balances. Okay, I'm getting down off my currency soapbox now....
The fed reserve letter is STILL there. It's the second letter in the serial number. The seal is no longer unique to each bank, but it's a rather simple process to discover which letter is for which district (the district number is also on the bill, right under the left-hand serial number; ie New York bills have 'B2' below the serial.)
The first letter in the serial number is for the series. 1996 series ($100, $50, and $20 only) have A, 1999 series (so far, $100, $20, $10, and $5) have a B, and then the FRB letter. Every time they re-do the currency (any time the Sec Tres or Tresurer change), this letter will change, as will the series year. More info can be found at The BEP web site and some more info at Where's George.com.
As for the dollar coin: The edge is not milled for a reason: It's not a quarter. The new coin is the same size, shape, and weight of the old SBA, but with the coloring and smooth edge, is much less likely to be mistaken for a quarter. Vending machines everywhere capable of dispensing more than $2 in change handle dollar coins. Granted, the majority of them seem to be transit systems, but there are others out there. The vending industry would LOVE for the new dollar coin to be generally accepted, since the bill changers on vending machines are a maintainance headache, and easy to fool. Also, the costs of handling the paper money are higher than that of coins, since coin processing is completely automated.
Oh, it seems people LIKE the new dollar coins. They're hoarding them like crazy. 18 million have been put into circulation, but few are making the rounds. The same occured with the SBA in recent times, which is why they created the new coin.
As for the new bills, everything needs to change, and it's time for the luddites amongst us to get a grip. The scrollwork on the original bills was there to deter counterfeiting. With the new technology in the bills (glowing threads, watermarks, magnetic ink, microprinting, color-shifting ink, etc.) the scrollwork was unneccesary. With the larger artwork, it was already a complicated engraving job to create the plates. The large amount of white space permits the use of a watermark, which could not otherwise be used if the area was heavily printed.
We don't need any kind of vehicle on the currency. Depictions of government institutions, memorials, and in the case of the $2, historical events is just fine.
-Hank
Yes, I determined how to find the Federal reserve Letter, but because the old seal is no longer there I often forget which letter goes with what city. It always made me feel good to see Phidelphia emblazened on the currency.
Here's the code.
A. Boston
B. New York
C. Philadelphia(?)
D. Cleveland
E. Richmond(?)
F. Atlanta
G. Chicago
H. St. Louis
I. Minneapolis
J. Kansas City
K. Dallas
L. San Francisco
Yes, C is Phila., E is Richmond. That's because I live between the two and get both...
I live in Baltimore, and all we get is Richmond FRD bills. Strangely enough, Baltimore is about halfway between Philadelphia and Richmond, it's about 90 miles from each.
Go Fig.
Here in Denver, we get a mix of bills from San Francisco, Dallas, and Kansas City. Coins are another story. Almost everything circulating out here is minted right here in town. I did get a nice, shiny 2000-P dime in my change the other day, however.
Steve B-8AV EXP:
C is Philadelphia and E is Richmond
BMTJeff
/*PS: Did any of you also notice that the government is also cheaping out on coin production as it did in the new bills.*/
Yeah. The new dollar bills are ugly too.
/*Basically the govt. realized that
it could save on both engravers and ink if it replaced the beautiful scrollwork with blank space.*/
The new currency is ugly, plain and simple. Lots of new things are ugly. Look at the LIRR's stuff, modern cars, etc. Good industrial is a lost art.
/* I am also noticing how the NSDC's are
already starting to tarnish.*/
Try washing them with Top Job or Mr Clean...
/*PPS: I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill.*/
Yeah, it sucks.
/*Jeez, out money needs to reflect who
we are as a nation and we are not a bunch of buildings.*/
Or at least have some variety to it. And color.
/*We need to have a car somewhere on American currency. They should have replaced it with an SUV like the Excursion.*/
Nah, I'd go for a 2 nicely chopped Harleys blasting down the road in front of the building :)
/*PPPS: I am also pissed that they got rid of the Federal Reverve bank letter. Now how am I going to tell which cities have which bank.
*/
Ugh. They got rid of that TOO? I used to love looking at money to see which city is was from.
The only reason the dollar coin will fail is because the people in government have no guts. If they did, they wouldn't spend any money bringing George Washington back from a 201 year death to pedddle a coin with somebody else on the obverse. They would just stop making one dollar bills and make twos. It worked for Canada. And if you're going to use that "Canadian Dollar isn't as expensive as an American Dollar" garbage, the Euro, which will go into circulation next year, was originally released at a value of $1.17 to €1.00. It may be worth about $.97 to €1.00 now, but it was planned, from the begginning, to have €1 and €2 coins and the lowest bill is to be a €5 one.
Those unwilling to accept change (pun intended) will be left behind.
Luddites, all of them!
-Hank
In Canada they have $2 coins aswell.
Arti
The new dollar is proving to be quite popular and, from my experience, quite recognizable. I don't care for the obverse, but the eagle design on the reverse is quite attractive. Neither do I care for the appearance of the coin when tarnished - I've got one that I've been carrying since mid-March just to see how the tarnish progresses. I have yet to receive one in change, except from a vending machine (the Post Office stamp machine at my office gives them in change, plus I've gotten one from an MVM). Even the toll collectors between NJ and Washington don't seem to mind them, simply because it is instantly obvious what you are giving them.
They should become quite common beginning in July, since it is my understanding that the Post Office will no longer give dollar bills in change over the counter at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I am mad as hell that the government got rid of the little Model T Ford on the back of the 10 dollar bill. ]
According to US Treasury web site:
" There are four cars represented on the reverse of the ten-dollar bill. None of these automobiles are of any specific year, make, or model, but rather a composite representation of the style of automobiles manufactured in the early 1920's. "
Arti
Like they would admit in this age of lawsuits that they had put a Model T on the 10. Ford would demand royalties. I don't know about the other 3 cars, but the one in the foreground is a Model T. Besides, what other cars even existed in 1920. The Model T was everywhere.
No, they wouldn't. GM, Daimler-Chys;er and others would demand damages, because it would constitute government promotion of Ford.
BTW, the US Governement is the worlds largest buyer of Fords.
-Hank
[As of February 28, 1999, of the $486,291,684,565 in total currency in worldwide circulation, $322,046,548,000 is in the $100 denomination.]
It's hard to believe that such a large percentage of circulating currency is in $100 notes. Especially since most people don't handle them on a daily basis. I wonder where those stacks of C-notes are hidden?! Heypaul, is there something you're not telling us about that R-9 cab in your apartment :-)
I have also wondered why they don't resume printing $500 (McKinley), $1000 (Cleveland), $5000 (Madison) and $10000 (Chase) notes. Since these were last printed in 1945 and last released in 1969, you would think that by now, with inflation, the need for them would have arisen.
Just to keep this somewhat on topic - my wife and I took the tour of the BEP two years ago when we visited DC. Of course, we took WMATA to visit all the various attractions in our Capital.
I would guess these large bills were mainly used by banks back in the day, to deposit money in one another's vaults. Nowadays this is all electronic. Maybe the $500 would get used, but I doubt the others would.
Who was Chase? And I'd vote for somebody besides McKinley and Cleveland. We can do better.
Salmon P. Chase, Secretary of the Treasury at one time.
The large denominations were favored by drug dealers and smugglers but saw very little other legitimate usage, hence their discontinuance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The large denominations were favored by drug dealers and smugglers but saw very little other legitimate usage, hence their discontinuance. ]
Currently in US there is no real need for even a $100 bill (credit cards) In the parts of the world where transactions are commited in US cash the issue of forgery is very serious. I've suprised people with $2 bills, they don't believe it's not bogus as they have never seen it.
Arti
[Salmon P. Chase, Secretary of the Treasury at one time]
He must have been a very fishy character!
Rim shot!
I saw a $10,000 note at a coin show in Denver once. Have also seen $500 and $1,000 notes at such shows. Of course, the latter two were commonly seen on Let's Make a Deal.
There was also a $100,000 note with Woodrow Wilson's portrait on it. They were only used for transactions between Federal Reserve banks and never circulated.
The interesting thing is, the tresury will redeem them for face value, and then destroy them. That means even collectors must pay full face value of the bill, in addition to any collectible premium. This is because the treasury NEVER de-values currency.
-Hank
I think you meant to say "demonetize". While currency was never demonetized except for gold coins, all postage stamps were when the Civil War broke out. In other words, you couldn't use the very first stamps issued in 1847 for postage today, but you could theoretically use an 1892 Columbian commemorative.
Don't forget the 1 trillion dollar bill with Truman giving the thumbs up or the 50,000 dollar bill with all the presidents on it having a party.
Right, only on Truman's note, instead of "In God We Trust", it says, "The Buck Stops Here".:-)
The Europian Union was catching FlacK for issueing a 200 Euro note because it would mainly be used by criminal types. Now while I personally don't have a problem with criminals getting access to large bills (hey, they have to make a living too), I was upset that the US 100 was going to be de-throned as the standard underworld legal tender. But with the Euro loosing most of its value I can breath easier.
Don't hold your breath.
There will also be a €500 bill.
[It's hard to believe that such a large percentage of circulating currency is in $100 notes. Especially since most people don't handle them on a daily basis. ]
Most people in US where we use credit cards. Well US currency is de facto used in Russa and many other countries with weak economy. Some countries use US currency instead of national (Panama). On a side note cash machines in Las Vegas dispense $100 bills.
Arti
The ones in Atlantic City do as well.
Right, $100 bill does good where it's not much money or reverse :-)
Arti
Best thing about that tour is the sign over the pallet of bills "Have you ever been so close, and yet so far away?"
-Hank :)
Another interesting thing about the $2 bill is the famous deformed foot. It's visible near the right side of the portrait of the Signers on the reverse of the bill, just under a tablecloth. It cannot possibly belong to one of the people sitting or standing in the area unless his leg is twisted backward at the knee.
I have a series 1995 $2 bill, which is badly rumpled, along with a bunch of series 1976 notes. This denomination was discontinued in August of 1966, then as you mentioned, made a comeback during the Bicentennial. AFAIK, Jefferson's portrait dodn't change from earlier versions; I also have series 1953 and 1963 $2 notes and the portrait looks the same.
When I worked at Lakeside Park, one of my colleagues took out a packet of $2 bills from his bank and gave them out for change during Nickel Day one year. He got a lot of surprised looks from customers.
Just to keep this on topic, I wonder how often station agents see these notes when customers buy tokens.
Back in the pre-Metrocard days they saw one almost every time I bought a token - and, since I was usually joy-riding, I bought my tokens one at a time, "and a map of the system too please". I have found it very hard to get them in New Jersey the last year or so - none of the banks that used to have them are carrying them any more, and my credit union won't even get them for me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was wondering if anyone knew how the signaling worked on the subway portion of the surface-subway. I was looking at a signal \, but I could see no track circut breaks on the rails. Does it use some other system of signaling. How do the operators get the correct route at interockings?
What property are you referring to? Did you see any loops of
wire inside the gauge? It could be a tuned audio track circuit.
Philly?
Yeah, what other sity has the "Surface Subway".
Boston, Pittsburgh and San Francisco also have similar operations to Philly's subway-surface operations.
If you are talking about switch tracks, like how does the driver choose between going west on the #10 or west on the 11,13,34,36 track, he does it by the amount of current released. If he accelerates he becomes a #10, if he coasts he does the opposite (or is it the other way around??). They also have a toggle switch to imitate accelerating. This is how switches work in the street, too. That's all I know about it.
If you mean the block signals, I believe they work the same as other railway signals (current thru the rails). SEPTA is investigating a CBTC system which is sort of a 'rolling block' (similar to that proposed for the Canarsie Line on NYCT).
One oddball signal on the indication immediately at the entrance to every station is a three-color signal with a yellow ball beneath the signal number. This yellow ball came on if a car was in the station. The following car could enter if the yellow ball was on once it made a safety stop at the red-over-yellow indication. Recent rear-end accidents have ended this practice and the result is slower operation in the subway.
There are no trip arms/automatic stops, so if a car goes through a red ball, the operator gets written up if he gets caught.
You may have also noticed that the eastbound track is 'dark' (i.e. no signals) from 22nd to just west of 15th. This is due to the regular backup of cars here in the peak hours. Whether this will change with the CBTC system is unknown to me.
Let's see. First, that's the old way to throw an electric switch. (More later in this post.)
SEPTA now uses the V-Tac system, which employs a tunable coil on the car (set to the route and run number by a small console on the dash). The coil sends a signal to a sensor mounted between the rails about 25 feet from the switch. The signal sets the switch according to the routing set. The operator, once having set the route, never has to do anything else. The V-Tac system will route the car correctly for the rest of the run (or day). One neat feature of the system is used at Elmwood Depot. A car pulling in is given a track assignment in the yard. The operator sets the console with no route and the number of the track assigned. V-Tac sets every ladder switch correctly and sends the car to the proper yard track. It is really wild to watch every switch in a ladder change at once. To deactivate the V-Tac system, simply set the console to 00 00 and the system turns the coil on the car off.
Now for the old way.
The standard electric switch control depends on power on /off to set the switch. Applying one point of power while passing under the contactor would set the switch for the diverging route, while drifting under the contactor sets the switch for the normal route.
About that "toggle".
When the PCC car was introduced, the designers had a problem. Because the PCC control does not allow the operator to know how much power is being drawn, electric switch control was nearly impossible. The PCC designers allowed for a an auxiliary circuit to throw electric switches. On the gang switch is a switch labeled "Track Switch". This switch operates a circuit that draws the equivialant of one point of power and throws the switch. Press the button (usually the button has a spring extender on it to make it stand out) as the car goes under the contactor and the electric switch sets to the diverging route. Don't press the button and the switch sets to the normal route.
It is possible to throw an electric switch with the power pedal on a PCC car, but it's not recommended. Only one property that I know of ever threw electric switches with the power pedal was Shaker Rapid, which ran multi-unit PCC trains with more than one trolley pole on the wire. Shaker's switch contactors were 110 feet from the points rather than the standard 55 feet.
On most properties, throwing electric switches with the power pedal on a PCC car was an absolute no-no. Baltimore Transit had at least 2 bad accidents caused by operators running under contactors with the power on. In both cases the switch threw to the diverging route and the car, moving too fast to stop, derailed as it hit the switch. In one, the car hit two autos and both trucks derailed. In the second, car 7400, operating on the 8 line, derailed at Irvington loop and hit a tree, demolshing the car's front. Same cause: Car passed under switch contactor with power on.
There is a nice article about the New York Cross Harbor Railroad in the July issue of "Trains" magazine.
Dave
If you're a transit fan stuck in Florida for a weekend, there could be worse places to spend some time than at the Tampa International Airport. No less than 7 different "lines" serve the terminal buildings.
The Tampa Airport has a unique system of "airside" pods connected to the central core by monorail-style people mover systems. Each pod is serviced by two tracks with a 1-car or 2-car shuttle going back and forth on its track. The oldest ones were installed when the airport first opened circa 1971-1975 (airside B, D, E). Both Airside B and Airside E buildings are currently closed for rebuilding; Airside D had it's 24 year old shuttle cars replaced within the past few years. The newest pods, Airside A and Airside F, have two-car trains on each track. The cars are serviced at the airsides, a bay underneath the platforms is visible when arriving at Airside A, for instance. The platforms have edge doors that resemble elevator doors. The Airside A track is somewhat different from the others; the others are all fairly straight, short, and flat; Airside A's guideway is curved and slopes downhill from terminal to pod. It takes approximately 45-60 seconds to travel between terminal and pod.
The short-term and long-term parking decks are connected on Level 5 by a people mover loop system. There are three stations in the terminal (well, it's really four but one is on a single-track section and the car doors open on both sides- they call this two stations), and four in the parking desk, each named for a famous aviator. The small cars change ends at the single track stub at Sikorsky/Yeager station, stop at Armstrong station (still in the terminal building) and run in a counterclockwise loop around the parking structure (making stops at Wright, Jannus, Goddard, and Lindberg stations) before returning to the terminal, with a stop at Earheart station (directly across from Armstrong station). Inside the parking structure there is a loop track for holding out of service cars. The cars operate similar to a horizontal elevator. Each station has a monitor showing the locations of the cars and there is a "press to call" button like an elevator. You can also walk between the stations along the trackway, which is on the other side of a fence.
Pictures
This system's equipment and track look almost identical to that in use at Seattle-Tacoma Airport, except that at SEA, it is completely underground.
SEA's "system" consists of one north-south line running on a big curve under the main terminal building, plus two circular loop lines that connect with the north-south line. The loop lines each go to the "satellite" terminal buildings at either end of the airport, the one at the north end serves UAL and the south end serves Northwest.
All three of the "routes" have two-car trains. The maintenance facility/switching between lines seems to be accessed (very hard to see) by a transfer-table type setup in which the cars are positioned properly and slid sideways.
Yeah. I think I rode every single one there when I had a 5 hour layover there!!!
Nice shots, Dave. They look very similar to the ones in Salt Lake City and in Las Vegas. Next time I'm out there I'll have to take some photos.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's good to see this fine award winning airport on this fine site!! Iwish I was back in Tampa now!!....Also, Atlanta has some type of people mover system as well.
It's funny that when you ride it, you start in a very air-conditioned building with dark lighting and walls, then the train goes outdoors with boiling hot sun and hot-looking white concrete, then terminates inside a dark air-conditioned building again. It's almost like some science-fiction movie.
Yesterday on the transit museum tour to port washington, i saw a maroon R21/22!from the M1's window in corona yard. It was a 9000 series.
If it was an R21/22 type, then it wasn't a 9000 series car.
The R21's were 7050-7299.
The R22's were 7300-7749.
The 9000's could be:
R33 8806-9305 (mainline), 9306-9345 (Flushing singles) or
R36 9346-9679 (mainline & Flushing married pairs)
I know what he is talking about. It is a renumbered locker car. I'll pass the number later.
Thats right. It is used a locker car and has a little office and desk in it. It is in a non-electrified siding track right up against the bumper. The mechanics and other parts of this car have been removed for use in maintaining other cars, rendering it unpowered. I believe that car hes been there for at least five years.
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
It is numbered 9306. Go figure now we have two cars with the same number and the property plate with the original number is missing.
It is renumbered 9306 (One # lower than the lowest R-33s in Corona)......Guess they forgot that there is a 9306 (At the Transit Museum).......Don't matter since both cars do not run up miles or require trips to the inspection barn.
one of the numbers was whiteish
What part of the bronx was it fimed in and at the end of the movie, is that chase scene on foot through Charlotte street.
Fort Apache the Bronx was filmed in the area near Simpson Street (the #5 train vicinity-Westchester Ave.)I don't remember the film very well because I saw it about 2 or 3 years ago.
But hey, Borg- type up this address for more info: www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/ddc/html/ftappht.html
Did hollywood use the actual precinct of did they errect one in the middle of the South Bronx. Was anything added to the neighbourhood or was what we say in the movie what the landscape looked like.
Outside was filmed on Location and in the Studios
Well, I'm not sure about anything as far as adding things to the backround, but Fort Apache actually WAS a real precinct at one point, believe it or not. It was not just build for the movie, but housed the 41st Precinct. The name "Fort Apache" came from a neighborhood legend that says someone once shot an arrow through the window of the precinct or so the stories goes. Believe it or don't believe it. But this is an actual place that you can go visit. It was renovated a few years back and it now used for other purposes. It is now surrounded by those nifty little one-family houses that are going up all over. To get to the old 41st Precinct AKA "Fort Apache", take the 5 train to Simpson Street and walk about a block north and it's right there.
I live not far where Old 41st Precinct & i seen that movies couples time. The movies made in Bronx, New York City. You can see old buses & subways in the background even the old Simpson St Station too.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
When the movie came out, was the comunity insulted that their neighbourhood was depicted as a war zone of gangs and out of control urban decay?Today, how has the area changed and what does it look like around the 41st.
(troll mode on)
Why do these questions sound as if we're being quizzed for a class paper?
David
(troll mode off)
Dojn't know if there was community opposition, there was an apology of sorts in the credits. If it was true why get mad over an honest depiction? A s for today I'm thankful to see many of the l905-l920 (or so) buildings restored and the area looking livable. Looks more like I remembered it in the 50's. [Being honest I don';t think anyplace is as mellow as they were in the 50's]When I left in the 70's it was a disaster, so was the West Bronx where I was raised.
The "old" Simpson Street station is STILL the "old" Simpson Street station - they haven't done too much with it except install those dopey "hat" lights along the platform, which DO provide good light but look ridiculous.
They've come a LONG way with that neighborhood, I'm telling you. Nothing to fear there. After dark? I don't know; but I haven't heard of any crime waves in that part of the world since the renaissance began.
The BRONX is on the way UP. Read my other post (just before this one)
The "old" Simpson Street station is STILL the "old" Simpson Street station - they haven't done too much with it except install those dopey "hat" lights along the platform, which DO provide good light but look ridiculous.
They've come a LONG way with that neighborhood, I'm telling you. Nothing to fear there. After dark? I don't know; but I haven't heard of any crime waves in that part of the world since the renaissance began.
The BRONX is on the way UP. Read my other post (just before this one)
wayne
The only way the Bronx could have gotten from the 70s was Up, back then it looked like Beirut in the 80s
Yeah, The Bronx was SO bad back in the early 80's that a couple of sci-fi movies about post-nuclear holocaust warring nomads/mutants were shot there. I think there was one with Fred Williamson called "1990: Bronx Warriors" or something like that was partially shot on Charlotte Street?
Sadly, the devastated neighborhoods of the South Bronx made a great backdrop for cheapo "Mad Max" type Hollywood ripoffs.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe the films Wolfen, Escape from the Bronx and Fort Apache the Bronx were all filmed in and around the big whole on Carlotte street.I'm missing a bunch of them, please feel free, I'd like to know as well.
If you see A Bronx Tale don't be faked out..it was filmed in Astoria, one scene with an L in the background looked like the Canarsie line in Brownsville Brooklyn. And the #12 bus never went by l87 & Belmont.
You got that right.I'd love to know what the hell both President Carter and Reagan were looking at when they visited Charlotte Street. They looked utterly out of place like lost tourists. In 1977, great picture of Carter before burnt out abandoned tenements in the Daily News.
How could community activists and Government leaders let this happen? In the 40's and 50's The Bronx was a vibrant borough full of life. How can and area fall victim to such a mass exodus and urban decay.Have any government figures answered for the fall of the Bronx?
Who or what is to blame????
See if any of this fits?
After WW II , theres alot of G.I.s with good jobs and money in the Bank. Not eniugh to pay for a house , but the down payment.
Enter the Real Estate broker and his good friend the banker. They play golf. They Talk.
Now introduce block buster minorities and rumors of Raped cars and stolen wivwes and daughters.
Now comes the White knight from Westchester,Nassau and Bergen counties. The bankes are lending mortgages, real estate is getting commissions, and rentcontrol is getting increases in rental charges.
Its a win , win , win , deal for everybody. The suburbes are developed. Now lets bring it to every major city in the country. Lending institutions loved the results of predjudice.
avid
Rent Control and Welfare (aka Leechism) killed the Bronx.
Suburban expansion was responsible too, but in this case a combination of many factors (including the above) was involved.
Is rent control not still going on in NYC?
If anyone wants a in depth analysis of the rise and fall of the South Bronx, e-mail me. There are many, many factors involved. Feel free to e-mail me.
[rumors of Raped cars and stolen wives and daughters]
I, uh, think you've got something backward ...
Marty: I asked the same question ten days ago, and I got a bunch of don't knock the Bronx pieces from a bunch of angry colleagues. You may not believe it, but back in the late 1940's when I was eight and nine, people moved from Queens and Brooklyn to some of the finer neighborhoods in the Bronx. It was less crowded and there were even areas that resembled suburbs there. The Bronx was looked upon by us as an exotic faraway place, even though it was not that far away. What happened to that borough in the intervening period in unfathomable. I don't know who gets the blame but from the places I have seen, it looks like the whole place has gone to seed. I was told of places that are still nice, but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.
>>>but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.<<<
Very true. However once all of Brooklyn was nice, all of Queens was nice,All of Manhattan was nice, etc, etc.
Peace,
ANDEE
But it wasn't at the time you're talking about, everybody who lived in the era when all of the Bronx was nice (read: before the industrial revolution) is dead today.
And people who moved to the Bronx then, move into neighborhoods that are the same today as they were then. Few moved from Brooklyn or Queens to the Greater South Bronx.
[You may not believe it, but back in the late 1940's when I was eight and nine, people moved from Queens and Brooklyn to some of the finer neighborhoods in the Bronx. It was less crowded and there were even areas that resembled suburbs there. The Bronx was looked upon by us as an exotic faraway place, even though it was not that far away. What
happened to that borough in the intervening period in unfathomable. I don't know who gets the blame but from the places I have seen, it looks like the whole place has gone to seed. I was told of places that are still nice, but the fact is once all the Bronx was nice.]
A couple of factors may be at play here. Our ideas as to what constitutes a "nice" neighborhood surely have changed over time. While I wasn't around then, I get the impression from what I've read and heard that living in relatively high density multifamily housing was no big deal back in the 1940's and at least partly into the 1950's. People hadn't yet become thoroughly enchanted with the idea of a single-family suburban house with a yard and a white picket fence. Of course, tastes changed, and before long the suburban house became a part of our culture and there was a mass migration out of the cities. Once that happened, the old urban neighborhoods suddenly didn't look quite so nice anymore, regardless of their actual condition. Some people think otherwise, it goes without saying, but by and large the urban neighborhoods that remain desirable today tend to be either those with luxury buildings (think Upper East Side) or architecturally desirable townhouses and similar structures (think Brooklyn Heights). Areas with ordinary, mid-rise apartment buildings just don't have as much appeal anymore, even when they're physically in good shape. That's why, in the long run, the Bronx is likely to benefit from the sort of low-density residential construction that's been noted here, even though the overall population will drop (now, if there just could be more jobs in the borough ...)
My second factor is a lot less complicated. Places often look a lot better in our memories than they did at the time. Neighborhoods in the Bronx and elsewhere that were unexceptional at best many years ago may seem nice when we think about them today. Just human nature at work, I suppose.
I read those last week. I'm glad you survived! We can say what we want about the Bronx. Let's call it for what it is. 20 years ago Charlotte street was ghetto street of the nation.Today that notorious title has moved on to another street.Congratulations!
I'm glad urban renewal is happening in the Bronx. It deserves it.
Still lot's of work to do!
This is just a test
whats the point of the single ride? i think it is so rediculous. it is also an environmental hazard as is the rest of the metrocards that are dropped all over the place. were trying to phase out the token? if so it shouldn't work. it is a waste. sort of.
The single ride is just that - a single ride. There are plenty of people in this city who can barely put together the cost of one ride, so the regular MetroCard is not for them.
The intent is that the single fare card will replace the single token once tokens are just a memory (whenever that may be). Hopefully they will institute a free transfer use on these cards.
Yes, the discarded cards will make a mess (along with the current discards of Bus Transfers and empty MetroCards). Aside from more garbage cans right near the turnstiles and a concerted education campaign by the MTA, I don't know what else can be done.
Turnstiles that keep the single rides in a hopper like the bus fare boxes.
Believe it or not there are probably some people in NYC that do not regularly take the subway. They travel in private cars and taxis most of the time. But maybe once in a great while they need to get from one place to another where the subway is the fastest method of travel. They want to pay a single fare to get where they are going, and do not know when if ever they will take the subway again.
There are more New Yorkers who never take the subway than you may think. I had a cousin who was born and raised in the Big Apple, and he once told he hadn't been on the subway in 25 years.
I see several problems with the single ride card.
1- It is only good for two hours and then expires. A token can be bought ahead of time and is good (assuming they dont go to a different token) anytime. I have already had quite a few complaints from
customers about this.
2- There is no subway to bus transfer and no bus to subway transfer. They see the card says " MetroCard" and expect the transfer.
Now personal opinions:
to be a success they need to make these changes:
1- Remove the two hour limit and allow trade in of unused cards when they reach the expiration date on the back of the card.
2- Allow bus to subway and subway to bus transfer just like regular MetroCards.
The bin for used MetroCards was a noble idea but due to poor design the bins are usually broken into by the homeless or those without the money for a fare and the cards wind up on the floor where they are picked up and used for scamming others. (Yes- if we see someone pick up a card we know came from the floor we can say that the card wont go into the computer[not false- they are usually bent.] and if they try to sell swipes we can call the police or warn the potential victim.
**this post is personal opinion and not the opinion of MTA and/or NYCT
In Chicago, at least one turnstile at each station accepts coins so that one can pay for a single ride in cash. There are also change machines at each station so one can covert paper money into $1.00 coins. (Current CTA fare, without transfer, is $1.50).
-- Ed Sachs
Well since Doug (BMT Man) mentioned Transit Transit in the Transit Model show thread I thought I would point out that this month's show features the Shoreline Trolley Museum of East Haven as the filler between segments and has it's own segment. If you look fast at the bench in the opening you will see Doug sitting there as 629 (3rd Ave Car) pulls in.
There is a segment about the "other Diamond" of Brooklyn and his tunnel (quick picture) and his museum. A segway from our PCC 1001 to his.
HBLR is in it, a segment on work trains of NYC Transit and the vacum train/track geo car (our W3 crane car segways) and Mr. Belmont's Mineola car is quickly in it.
Sadly the segment of Doug (BMT Man) scrapping paint off of R17 6688 has been left on the cutting room floor.
Our Jeff H. is pictured in there a few times in his beloved 1001.
If you hang around to the closing (as credit roll), I'm operating 775 great shot of my tush (and I have to crouch slightly to see out the window, Mom yelled at me for not standing up straight), forgive the horn blowing (against our rules) but they wanted it for the filming >G<.
Lou, I'm sure your Tush looks terrific on video! ;-)
Are you planning on starring in some "blue movies" next?
BMTman
I saw the show just a little while ago. It was interesting.... Too bad they cut 6688 out of the picture. It would have been interesting being that she's a car from NY running on a scenic route. NY Cars rule in Branford!
-Stef
They cut out 6688? That would have been nice to have seen. I haven't seen an R17 in action since 1989 when they ran a set of them in the Redbird scheme on the Dyre Avenue line (would have been nice to have ridden it). I actually thought they were going to overhaul the R17s when I saw these cars. Unfortunately, that didn't happen...
No, the single unit cars (pre-R-26) were not included in the GOH program. Too bad my personal favorite, 1689, wasn't featured.
1689 is buried at the end of the barn from the operating end of the barn so they wouldn't have pulled her out for pix. You can see her if you take the tour since she is next to the snow sweeper and you see her nose and number plate >G<.
Congrads to Lou, Doug & Jeff for the moments of fame ! I look forward to seeing you all this Wednesday at 8 PM (Westbury channel 71).
When we have the SubTalk awards we'll have to incl. a catagory for best preformance in movie, plus best interview in print.
Mr t__:^)
I was just looking at the latest Amtrak(Winter 2000) Northeast Timetable and noticed a couple of things I thought strange. Example ``Northeast Direct Service(Bring back the old names) Trains 95/191/195 leave NY Penn Station at 1132 AM and arrive at Baltimore at 201 with a 3 minute stop in Phil. The Silver Star #91 leaves NYP at 1132 and leaves Phil 1 hour 3 minutes later then the Direct, and 1 hr and 32 minutes later In Balt with the same number of stops. Also similar between 145 and the Crescent.and others, can anyone tell me why. These are not Metroliners?
They wait longer at each stop. Remember the long haul trains have to discharge passengers too. Some have sleeper cars and the attentends and conductors have to make sure everyone gets off. Passengers have too check their rooms too make sure everything is with them. Conductors may have to show people to their room. This is why it takes longer. Also I didnt mention pumping out the black water tanks and refilling the fresh water. May also need food service too.
Southbound, the Silver trains are 'Board Only' between NYP and WAS.
-Hank (will be on 97/98 at the end of the month)
They do not discharge between NYC and Alexandria VA, food is put on board at Sunnyside and Washington Union Station, with 6 stops at 5 minutes each it is only a 30 minute difference, still too long.
Not really, considering they've got to load checked baggage. At WAS, they change engines.
-Hank
No, they add the engines at PHL. This seems to take amtrak close to 30 minutes.
Apparently, it depends on the train. I'll find out in 3 weeks, as I'm taking 97/98 to Savannah.
-Hank
They wait longer at each stop. Remember the long haul trains have to discharge passengers too. Some have sleeper cars and the attentends and conductors have to make sure everyone gets off. Passengers have too check their rooms too make sure everything is with them. Conductors may have to show people to their room. This is why it takes longer. Also I didnt mention pumping out the black water tanks and refilling the fresh water. May also need food service too. DIesels need to be fueled.
The trains are electric NORTH OF WASHINGTON
[(Bring back the old names) ...]
I agree. Amtrak plans to do away with all train names in the NEC once their Acela brand is fully functional. Passenger railroads have (mistakenly, IMHO) tried to pretend they are some kind of "Ground Airline" ever since PRR put up that clamshell and (wow!) computerized ticketing in the old Penn Station. The Acela marketing (well, it is in direct competition with the US Air & Delta Shuttles) is skewed in that direction too.
I SAY Amtrak ought to go out of their way to point up every single aspect of rail travel that *differs* from air travel, i.e. more comforable seats, gobs more leg-room, less susceptibility to weather delays and crappy air-traffic control equipment delays and too-many-planes-heading-south-right-now-so-we-have-to-sit-on-the-runway-for-45-minutes delays, etc.
Here are some possible slogans:
"There's no such thing as a traffic jam on Acela Express."
"Acela Express: Your knees are where they should be -- not in your ears."
"Acela Express: You board, you sit, you fly. Our runways are never backed-up."
"Acela Express: Snow problem? No problem."
This concludes my amateur marketing-executive-for-a-day exercise. Thank you. :-)
Well, I think that the names can be confusing to the non railfan. A traveler knows exactly where the NE Direct trains go. He may not have known where the Mayflower went.
At least thats what amtrak thinks.
Aside from this, I think you are right that amtrak should market the DIFFERENCE between them and the airlines.
Well I still consider my train 145 home from New Haven to be "The Patriot". That's what it was when I first took it in Septembre and that's what I will refer to it as forever.
Right on Mike
Although, on the other hand, about 3 years ago I was chatting with a conductor on a Keystone train, and he mentioned that he was working "the Broadway" the next day, but quickly corrected himself -- he actually meant the "Three Rivers," since the "Broadway Limited" had been discontinued for some time by then. Judging from the current style of service offered on that train, to refer to it as "Broadway [Ltd]" was a bit of an insult, don't you think?
Yes the old Broadway and 20th Century Limiteds, now those were trains
I still liked the old names, The Colonial, Congressional, Etc. Amtrak is a Railroad not a Airline, and they still name their Long Distance Trains, maybe if we petition them they will bring back the names.
No, I do see the pont to losing the individual train names for corridor service. They're not in the business of providing things for railfans to enjoy, they're in business to make money, and serve passengers. If 'branding' the service makes it more conveinient for the paying customer, there's no reason to stop them. Corridor service serves different passengers than the long distance trains; where most long-distance travelers are vacationers, corridor travelers are most likely business people, commuters, and students.
-Hank
Yes but over 90 years they had names for the trains, people kew the name and number of the train, now calling all the trains NorthEast Direct is more confusing. It use to be I was taking the Morning Congressional arriving at 12.00PM, Now I have to remember the number of the train, and on different days the train has different numbers. Check out their timetable.. Amtrak has to remember it is still a railroad not a airline
Amtrak may be a railroad and not an airline, but to make a profit and continue to exist, they have to think and market themselves as one. All the NE Direct trains make generally the same destinations. Some skip certain stations, but even with names you have to check the schedules to find out which ones when. And even named trains had different numbers when they ran on different schedules on different days. Railfans in general have to realize that there is little room for nostalgia in the business world. Using train numbers and a service name only makes them more like an airline, which uses flight numbers, which is their primary competition in the NE market.
-Hank
I got some more slogans:
Amtrak: Please bypass the check-in window, ignore security checkpoints, board in whatever order and sit where ever you want.
Amtrak: To order to catch your train please arrive at least 30 seconds before time of departure.
Amtrak: Our stations double as shopping malls.
Amtrak: Our crashes HAVE survivors.
Amtrak: Hijackers can't order our trains to Cuba.
"These are not Metroliners?"
Nope. The Silver Star (and its sisters, the Silver Palm and Silver Meteor) and the Crescent, along with the Carolinian (#79, right on the heels of Metroliner #101 out of NYP but 45 minutes behind it at WAS), the Vermonter, and the Twilight Shoreliner are all long-distance trains. Except for the Twilight Shoreliner (BOS-WAS), they all run either farther north (Vermonter WAS-St. Albans) or south (Carolinian NYP-Charlotte NC; Silver trains NYP-Miami; Crescent NYP-New Orleans) than the Northeast Corridor. And except for the all-daylight Vermonter and Carolinian, they have sleeper cars.
Therefore, they aren't Northeast Corridor trains, and will not become Acela trains. They are listed in the Northeast Timetable strictly for the sake of completeness ("What train just went past?"). Notice that there names are printed in italics to distinguish them from corridor trains.
The silver trains also function as NY-WAS trains, since the trains are 'board only' between the 2 stations.
-Hank
I tried buying a ticket between Wash and New York Last year on the Florida train and they would not sell me one, I had to use weither a MetroLiner or NE Direct, also tried to buy one between NY and DC Southbound, and the first place I could get off was Alexandria . No local passengers between NY and DC zt all
Then they've changed things since 3 years ago.
-Hank
Southbound the reason is that Philly is where Amtrak changes the head-end power on their long haul trains, also as howard says, it takes longer to load a LD train, making sure the 1st class passengers are 'checked in', loading baggage, etc....
Silver Service trains (Meteor, Star, Palm) change power in DC. They are usually hauled by two meatballs. The Carolinian also changes power in DC, when the first few cars are disconnected.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Silver Star/Silver Palm/Crescent trains change power at Philadelphia now. Usually each train is pulled by an E60 between NY and Philly.
One AEM-7 pulls Silver Meteor between NY and DC.
Chaohwa
I'll let you know in a month!
-Hank
I visit Union Staion four to five times a week. I also spend some time taking photos along the NEC. So I have had a lot of observations.
Chaohwa
Many of us are under the impression that trains continueing south along the NEC (specifically, via Baltimore) MUST be electric-powered due to the tunnels under Baltimore Harbor.
-Hank
The Pennsy (and by progression, Amtrak) NEVER had (or have) a tunnel under Baltimore's harbor. The Baltimore Tunnels (Union and B&P to us) are under city streets. The city was already developed when the Baltimore & Potomac Railroad built the tunnel south of Baltimore's Penn Station in the 1870's. In the 80's the Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore Railroad, in conjuction with the Northern Central and the infant Western Maryland built the tunnels to the north. Both tunnels see electrics and diesels, and previously steam. B&P actually has a long-abandoned station at Pennsylvania Avenue. in 1875 that area was an upper crust ritzy section, so a station was provided. It was closed early in the 20th century (even before electrification) and nobody remembers it being used. There is no trace on the surface.
I was always under the impression that the tunnel went under water. Well, that shows me I should grab a map.
-Hank
However, Baltimore does allow diesels through the tunnels around Baltimore Penn Station. MARC diesels pull and push commuter trains regularly. Since two years ago, Amtrak has started to use P40s or P42s to haul long distance trains south of Philadelphia.
Chaohwa
As people have mentioned, these trains board slower. They also run slower. They tend to be heavy, with the sleepers, even before the M&E cars get added. And the E60s that haul them can only do 90 (?).
But losing an hour and a half before DC? That seems ridiculous. One of the things I find so discouraging on amtrak is that they NEVER seem in a hurry away from the NEC. Even though you are willing to be on the train 18 hours, that doesn't mean you would not prefer to make the trip in 15 hours. They seem to make no effort to keep things moving quickly!
It's not all Amtrak's fault. I recall meeting several freight trains last time I took 97/98 to Savannah. Outside of the NEC, Amtrak is truly at the mercy of the freight carriers.
-Hank
They are not at the mercy of freight trains when they spend 20 minutes in Harrisburg on the way west (no engine change), THEN stop to fuel the engine outside the station. They are not at the mercy of freight RRs when they add M&E cars AFTER the scheduled departure from Chicago.
Why should the freight RRs try to move them quicker when amtrak doesn't seem to care? What amtrak DOES care about, to a certain extent, is getting there a little on time. But the schedules are not designed to get you there quickly.
Maybe in the challenging quest to get to 3 hrs NY - BOS, the corporate culture will learn to care about this.
Between Boston and Wash Amrak owns the right of way, except the part they share with Metro North between New Rochelle and New Haven.
Between Boston and Wash Amrak owns the right of way, except the part they share with Metro North between New Rochelle and New Haven.
... which causes never-ending debates about whose trains get priority, which projects should get built, and who should pay. Although, I thought the portion within Massachusetts isn't owned by Amtrak either, is it?
I know there are railfans in Toronto on this forum and other railfans that know about Toronto and Rail in Canada. Well this week I'm planning a trip to Niagara Falls for about a week. (No "Slowly I Turn, Step by Step" jokes HEY PAUL) I'm thinking of taking a day trip to Toronto on one day. Although I'm driving to Niagara from Long Island I thought it might be nice to take the train to Toronto. I checked the website for Rail Via, the Canadian version of Amtrack and see an early morning train from the Canadian side of Niagara to Toronto & a late afternoon train back. Anyone know anything about the trip? Is Via reliable? Is it more scenic than driving? The fare seems reasonable, $23 Canadian money each way. Also anyone have any pointers on what to check out in Toronto? Doesn't have to be transit related.
Visit Ontario Place on the lake which is a large exhibition site (like a small, perennial World's Fair). Climb to the top of the CN Tower (still the world's tallest self-supporting structure), at the CN Tower you can walk on a glass floor over 400 meters (it's Canada, they use the sane system) above Toronto and a revolving restaurant (like the one at the Marriott Marquis). If you're a hockey fan, be sure not to miss the Hockey Hall of Fame downtown, it's connected to the underground concourse system.
Not in Toronto, but on the QEW between Niagara and Toronto is the miniature city of Tivoli, which has scale models of many world landmarks.
This is transit related, but don't miss the trolleys, they still look very much like traditional trolleys and not like light rail.
The subway is bland and utilitarian and can be skipped for a one day trip.
Via rail is so-so on the reliability factor in my experience - but that means they're WAY better than they were a few years ago.
Here are a few ideas for you in Toronto - too bad you're only here one day
While in Toronto riding the 510 Streetcar line from end to end is a railfan must. It takes you from Union Station, tunnels under Bay St then runs in a Median along Queen's Quay (and the waterfront) and up Spadina. It passes the Ferry Docks, the CN tower, Skydome and goes through Chinatown. Headways are 2 min 35 seconds in middays and rush hours and are very good even at off peak times.
The boat from the Ferry docks to the Toronto Islands is also a great way to spend part of your day. The boats are from the 1940s and have a great charm to them. The ride to the islands (about 25 minutes) and the Islands themselves provide spectacular views of the city.
The trip is $5 cdn (I know the Staten Island Ferry is free..). If you want to do this, take the 510 car to Queens Quay and Spadina and the docks are right there.
Another good ride and walk is to take the 501 (Queen) streetcar all the way to the Eastern end of the route and then walk back west along Queen for a few blocks. This area is known as the Beach (or the Beaches to those who don't live there). It is one of the most vibrant and interesting neighbourhoods in Toronto. You can also walk a couple blocks south from Queen st. and walk along the boardwalk. Very nice.
Another nice bit of Toronto is St. Clair Avenue West. Take the subway to St. Clair West station and then the 512 (St. Clair) car westbound to Oakwood Ave. Get off there and continue walking west. The neighbourhood is mixed but the stores are heavily Italian and the pedestrian traffic is heavy. Walk five streetcar stops to Landsdowne Ave. Just west of Landsdowne Ave on the south side of St. Clair is La Paloma - which has every flavour of Gelato known to man and it is very good. Right beside La Paloma is Landsdowne (once known as Earlscourt)loop where the 512 cars frequently short turn. Nothing like eating Gelato by a streetcar loop.
If you just want a nice streetcar ride, take the 505 Dundas or 504 King cars to their Eastern terminus at Broadview stn. The run up Broadview between Gerrard and Danforth is full of little jogs and turns and a great view of the Don Valley and the downtown skyline.
Thanks Eugenius and Rob H. I just realized that a racetrack I always wanted to go to, Woodbine Racetrack, is just outside of Toronto, so I just make 2 daytrips, one to go to the places you guys mentioned, and another to go to Woodbine.
The spanish and italian versions of TransiTALK is up and running. Now for you spanish and italian speaking bus fans can enjoy it in your own language! Soon to follow German, French and possibly Portugese!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
See it on eBay, Item #351004494: No reserve, minimum bid applies. Negative-original (not a copy, nor a scan, but printed from the actual camera negative), an 8x10 inch copyright-registered photograph of one of the most famous scenes in Brooklyn, New York. This extremely sharp and clear photo, taken November 6, 1947, just after the end of the baseball season, shows Brooklyn in its finest hour. As all Brooklyn Dodger fans are aware, the team was originally known as the “Trolley Dodgers” since the fans found it necessary to dodge the numerous trolley lines that operated in the not only in the entire Borough of Brooklyn but especially in the vicinity of Ebbets Field (opened April 9, 1913; closed September 24, 1957 after after the last game; demolished February 23, 1960; replaced by a huge housing project). Ironically, the last trolley operated in Brooklyn on October 31, 1956, but an electric trolleybus line (#48-Lorimer Street) continued to operate past the stadium until it too was replaced by diesel buses on July 27, 1960. This classic photo shows two of Brooklyn’s famous “Peter Witt” type trolleys southbound on Empire Boulevard, about to turn west onto Empire Boulevard; trolley #8346 is in the foreground. Note also the classic two-color cast iron traffic signal (the last of which was replaced in Far Rockaway, Queens about five years ago), the standard Brooklyn “Trolley Station” sign and Mel’s Expert Repairs, who also offered parking at a monthly rate of ten dollars. The photograph was taken by Robert Wasche, noted trolley and transportation photographer, who walked and photographed, generally block-by-block, each of Brooklyn’s trolley and elevated lines, starting upon his return from the U.S. Military in World War II, photographing a clean and dependable means of transportation never to be forgotten. The photograph is hand-printed and developed on Agfa archival glossy stock, and will last a lifetime under proper storage conditions. The labels and cross-hatch lines shown on the photograph below do not, of course, appear on the actual photograph. Here is an opportunity to possess an original photograph of one of brooklyn’s most classic and historic scenes. •For further information or additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you wouldn’t want to miss an item you were looking for. Over 25,000 items in all categories are to be listed in the future. •Buyer pays shipping/insurance.
Actually, Joe, the team was originally known by a variety
of informal nicknames, the two most popular being the Robins
and the Dodgers. The official team name was simply "Brooklyn"
into the 1920s, when they adopted the Dodgers nickname as an
official name and stitched it onto their uniforms.
Jeff, wasn't the team called "The Brooklyn Trolley Dodgers". Then later on the "trolley" was dropped and the rest became history??
Doug aka BMTman (not Barely Moving Trains, thank you verrrry much).
I did a bit of research on this for Autumn in New York at the
Shore Line Trolley Museum.
Here is a condensed history: The Brooklyn team that eventually
became the Dodgers was established in 1883. Their nickname
was "The Brooklyn Bridegrooms". It was in the late 1890s,
while playing at Eastern Park in East New York, that the team
picked up the nickname "Trolley Dodgers". The team also used
the nickname "Superbas" during that time. In 1914, after Wilbert
Robinson became manager, the team was popularly called "The Robins".
All this time, the official name of the team was simply "Brooklyn"
and the uniform was a plain "B". In 1938, in attempt to snazz
things up amidst poor play and poor attendance, the owners introduced
night baseball to Ebbets field and also adopted the long-time
nickname of "Dodgers" as the official team name, which was stitched
in blue thread on the uniforms.
In 1938 the Dodgers went to green lettered uniforms in an effort to change their pathetic luck, reputation, and record. It didn't work, but in 1939 Leo Durocher became manager and Larry MacPhail became operating officer of the team. With players like Whitlow Wyatt, Kirby Higbe, and Hugh Casey on the mound, and outstanding position players like Dolh Camilli, Billy Herman, Pee Wee Reese, Pete Reiser, and, my favorite, Dixie Walker, the Dodgers came of age and won the 1941 pennant. After the Second World War, they dominated the league before they left town.
Branch Rickey assumed the title of president in 1943, succeeding Larry MacPhail. He was generally credited with putting together the team which remained essentially intact from the late 40s until the move to LA.
IIRC, Dixie Walker was traded after making it clear he didn't like the idea of playing alongside Jackie Robinson.
No discussion of the Dodgers would be complete without mentioning the immortal "three man at third" gaffe. I don't remember who the batter was, but he ended up doubling into a double play (or was it triple into a triple play?). A few days later, a cabbie went by Ebbets Field and heard a great roar from the crowd. He hollered at a fan, "What's going on?", to which the fan replied, "The Dodgers have three men on base." "Which base?" was the classic comeback.
I can't resist, but that definitely deserves a rim shot.
While at work today, I came across a memorandum hanging in the dispatchers office at the World Trade Center. Dated June 1st, it states that no Redbirds are to be operated on the #1 line from north of 96th St. to south of Dyckman St. Do any of my fellow TA employees-or anyone else for that matter-know the reason for this restriction?
Oh well! I guess the mainline IRT Redbirds are going to have to travel to 207th St by Concourse Yard which inturn places them on the IND. We'll have to put R-68s at the ends of the train, unless they use the Revenue Collector stationed at Concourse. Interesting.
But the restriction still doesn't make sense. What makes the Redbirds different from the R-62As that currently run on the 1?
-Stef
..i saw a four-pack of redbirds scooting up the layup
track at 110th Street last week.. lights off..
later seen in layup entering 207th yard..
...also tend to see redbirds and r32's attached
together pulling out from the underground tunnel
which connects the 207th Yard to the A line..
1SF9
It seems that an electrical contractor put in conduit and boxes on the tunnel roof that interfere with the roof of only the Redbirds. I beleive a few redbirds sustained minor damage. This condition does not affect the 62A.
Oh, that's nice!
Wonder if it will affect the R-142, as eventually, equipment does get shifted around, and sometime in the future, the R-62s will be replaced .....
--Mark
I hope they will move the boxes by then.
Sounds like the reverse situation of the Steinway tunnels. Then, it was the R-62s which were affected. Turnabout is fair play.
Why can't the 62s run in the Steinway tunnel.
Now they can. But because of badly misaligned tracks in the Steinway Tunnels in the '80s, the R62s were not permitted in those tunnels. But now that they've fixed the problem tracks, R62s should have no problem running in the tunnels. Question, when will R62As begin to be shifted to the #7 line? And is it really going to happen this time? Because I've been hearing about R62As going to the 7 since the Spring of last 1999.
06/10/2000
[Question, when will R62As begin to be shifted to the #7 line? And is it really going to happen this time? Because I've been hearing about R62As going to the 7 since the Spring of last 1999.]
I would guess after the R-142's pass there tests and deliveries start. I sure they will withdraw them and "spruce" them up a bit so #7 riders won't think they'll be getting somebody's scratched windowed hand-me-downs!
Bill "Newkirk"
" . . . #7 riders won't think they'll be getting somebody's scratched windowed hand-me downs!"
When in reality, they will be. Tell them everything but the truth, right?
"Oh, yeah, the cars are new . . . 15 years young!"
They piss everybody off by trying to please everybody. The #7 riders have a train every few minutes. It's the service that counts, not the train. Some people are too much. They're line is served exclusively by old trains, it's racism. The minority neighborhoods get the crap trains while the yuppie areas get the good ones. Gotta please them. Look at the express buses. Gotta please the "affluent Staten Islanders" or they'll get in their cars and SUVs instead. A few years ago, I remember riding on hard-seat buses on the SI X-routes. Now they're using 45-ft. MCI's. For what? What was wrong with the suburban Novas and Orions? They have reclining seats, could've also put in luggage racks and reading lights like the NJT suburbans, but otherwise they're fine.
It's still nice to make a good impression, though. Make your service look attractive and reliable.
It's all in the mind . . . it's all one big mind game . . . they're playing with people's minds . . . it's the only explanation.
Look, I woke up at 6, I had to take my driving lesson at 7:30, and my brain is still sleeping.
Must be something that is affected by a whole 1/4" of height!
According to the plans shown in Greller's NYCTA subway car book, the R26/28/29/33's are 11'10-3/8" tall. The R62's are 11'10-5/8" tall. One quarter inch difference!!
According to the plans shown in Greller's NYCTA subway car book, the R26/28/29/33's are 11'10-3/8" tall. The R62's are 11'10-5/8" tall. One quarter inch difference!!
How can the tunnel roof affect the shorter R26/28/29/33's but not the taller R62's??
That's what I was getting at -- someone posted that there was something to do with tunnel clearance causing the restriction, and the dimensional drawings show that the Redbirds are 1/4 inch LESS in height.
Something I just noticed upon rechecking the drawings, perhaps this is the key.
The extreme width of the R29's is 8'10-3/16".
On the R62's it is 8'9-1/2". Maybe that extra 11/16" on the Redbirds has something to do with it. That still doesn't seem right, as ALl the cars tend to do a little side-swaying as they travel; I'd assume they'd ALL have the problem if the width was the case.
Why do the redbirds sway so much? You could see the side-swaying if you stand at a platform edge and look at a approching train. The rest of the fleet doesn't seem to do that.
R-46's sway about the same.
It's a combination of weight and age. The springs are worn, and likely so are the truck bolsters. (is that the right part?)
Oh, Local trains tend to lean away from the platfom. Know why?
-Hank
why do they lean away?
Watch the people. When they get on, the the car is SRO, people will lean against the side where the doors are less likely to open. Or, in the case of the GCT-TS Shuttle, the side that the doors WILL open on, so they can be first out.
-Hank
They are top heavier than OEM due to the overhead A/C blowers running on their original trucking. Another factor may be that a light train without the weight of passengers may be a little more unstable. I'm wondering why all work trains equipped with turtleback roofing cars aren't restricted either. If an R33 can damage tunnel walls, why not the signal dolly, collectors or just a rider car? Is there something the TA forgot or are they printing bulletins just to look for reactions?
Robin:
Can the R-62s run in the "Steinway" tunnel?
BMTJeff
I think they already did run some R62's on he #7 when the R62's were fairly new.
Sure Jeff, there would be no problem. The 62A's will be on the #7,they will keep some as single units, for the eleventh car.
Thanks for the info...we had a similar problem on 8th Av. a few months ago. They installed brackets to support conduit above 2TK at 34th St. When the G.O. finished and the track was placed back in service, the brackets soon came down!
So, I guess those token booths are running out of tokens and Metrocards, but are filling up with tons of money since the revenue collectors can't get through.
A lot of stations used armored trucks nowadays.
Saturday night I was at the club and while "Bodyrock" by Moby (my favorite artist) was playing, and I thought about what subway ridership is per capita. The girl I was freak dancing with wasn't really intrested in discussing this, so I decided to discuss it here on good ol' Subtalk.
I figure the way you can measure ridership per capitas is by divding # of riders/# of stations. Another way could be # of riders/# of route miles. Yet another way is # of riders over/population of service area. I deciced the easiest one was the first one, so I went to the APTA web site and found ridership stats and station info for the major cities of the country. Here's what I found, starting the hightest per captia:
..........riders per station......(riders in 1999/stations)
New York:.....3,876,526.............(1,814,214,500/468)
DC:...........2,698,097.............(210,451,600/78)
San Fran:.....2,304,471.............(89,874,400/39)
Atlanta:......2,226,513.............(81,630,500/39)
Boston:.......1,745,027.............(127,387,000/73)
LA:...........1,182,253.............(15,369,300/13)
Chicago:......1,004,841.............(141,682,700/141)
Balitmore:....957,242...............(13,401,400/14)
Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)
Could the results of this mean that NY has the most crowded subway, and Philly has the least crowded? Whaddya think?
I think it's rather misleading... Number of riders in relation to the population of the service area would be a much better indicator.
In your chart, Atlanta ranks several places above Chicago although it's common knowledge that the CTA has much higher ridership per capita than MARTA. The reason Atlanta ranks higher on your list is that most MARTA station are large hub stations serving many bus lines and mostly with extensive parking facilities. In Chicago, most CTA stations are smaller neighborhood stations, even though there are many more stations and they're mostly placed fairly close together.
I don't think anybody would doubt that NYC would have the highest ridership per capita no matter which way you cut it, but saying that LA has higher ridership per capita than Chicago or Philly seems a bit of a stretch. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
This is ridership per station, not ridership per capita, but it is still interesting. Kind of puts all those discussions (by me among others) about too many NYC stations too close together in a different perspective, doesn't it?
The numbers still look high. Over 3 million fares per year per avg station??
(Three million per station looks high)
That's only 8,200 per day on average. On weekdays, the Manhattan stations surely get far more. This offsets the Franklin Ave shuttle on a sunday.
Sorry Rob, but your figures are just too simple. You need to factor in hours of operation since some of those lines are not open 24 hours. If you are using riders per station you skew toward lines that move long distances with few stations which are the newer systems intended to use surface transit feeders. Riders per station or riders per track mile does not give any indication of riders per capita.
The only thing that measures riders per capita is riders per population of service area. Obviously determining the service area can be subject to interpretation also. Do you include everyone who can reach a park and ride? Everyone within range of connecting surface transportation? Or just those within walking distance of the line?
The most efficient system would be the one with the highest ridership per train unit. i.e. number of riders divided by the number of trains in a given time period such as a month. The time period has to be long enough to take into account rush hours and non-work days.
[Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)]
Philadelphia's SEPTA subways have more than 13 stations.
And Philadelphia must have more than 10 million rides per year. That is about 30000 per day, which cannot at all be right. I'd say it's about 10 times that number, and with 54 stations on the MFSE and BSS, 9 on the Subway-Surface, and 13 on PATCO.
Baltimore's must the lightest by far, with only four (being charitable) downtown stations (really only 2), a limited service area and 8-minute service during rush hour, no service on Sunday, and nearly no need for the line since most people north of Pennsylvania Ave./North Avenue Station own a car and Baltimore traffic is not that bad. Maybe Miami beats it out for non-use though, with its 15-minute service during most of the day and weekends. Interestingly they are twins physically and as to their use.
[Philly:.......829,261...............(10,780,400/13)]
Philadelphia's SEPTA subways have more than 13 stations. /Even PATCO itself has 14.
Whenever a discussion arises of the Second Avenue Subway and lack thereof, it is invariably mentioned that New York has lost it's zeal and it's ability to commit to large scale public works projects. But never is mentioned the Third Water Tunnel. The water tunnel is supposed to be the largest single public works project in the city, ever.
If they can commit to spending fifty years and 24 lives (so far) to building a tunnel 350-850 feet below the surface from White Plains to Red Hook, why can't they build a simple subway line under Second Avenue from 125th to even 63rd Street?
And the water tunnel started construction in 1970, it was not stopped for the fiscal crisis.
The water tunnel is inevitable. Currently they have no way of doing any repairs to the others and what I've heard are in dire need of it.
Arti
The water tunnel is NOT inevitable. NO ONE has a way to do repairs on their aquaducts. If one fails, there will be a "crisis," and the FEDERAL government will tax us all to truck in bottled water for ten years until a replacement is built. By being responsible, once again, New York is being had.
The reason the water tunnel construction has continued is that the water and sewer system has its own income sources that the politicians have not been able to raid (the Mayor tried it). It is funded by water and sewer bills.
In contrast, New York's gas, motor vehicle sales, and parking taxes, its tolls, it's dedicated transit taxes, and in the future perhaps even its fares are diverted through subterfuge (ie. put the Thruway and MTA in debt, which toll and farepayers have to repay, and divert the money).
Even if it means higher fares, tolls and dedicated taxes, I believe the transporation system needs to be made fiscally independent.
Isn't the plan to do some maintenance on the 2 old tunnels after the 3rd is completed?
Arti
(Isn't the plan to do some maintenance on the 2 old tunnels after the 3rd is completed?)
Well, they had to come up with some kind of reason for spending all the money. But other water systems don't shut down their aquaducts for inspection as far as I know. The third water tunnel was designed before anyone considered water conservation as an option. Since then, a ban on water-cooled AC and low-flow toilets and faucets have cut down demand -- a good thing, since even if we had the water, we don't have sewage treatment capacity.
The only way this will pay is if Long Island's ground water goes bad, the Island somehow gets approval to build its own upstate reseviors, and it pays the city for for part of the capacity in the new aquaduct.
Considering the amount of time it takes to build a water tunnel, constructing it is a good idea. Perhaps the demand will be there by 2020, because if the demand does arise, it certainly won't be an option to spend 50 years to build another tunnel as the city becomes drier.
(Considering the amount of time it takes to build a water tunnel, constructing it is a good idea. Perhaps the demand will be there
by 2020, because if the demand does arise, it certainly won't be an option to spend 50 years to build another tunnel as the city
becomes drier.)
Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities.
The city has to build WT3 before they can look at WT1 & WT2. The city doesn't even know if they can ever properly shut down 1 & 2 in order to inspect and rehabilitate them. Even Mayor Beame realized how important the water tunnels are, or more likely someone told him how important they are. There are also plans for a WT4.
[Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities.]
For that matter, what about the Hudson River Skimming Project? Every time there's a drought, the City has to scramble. And the way things are going, they may have to build that vastly expensive filtration plant.
(And the way things are going, they may have to build
that vastly expensive filtration plant.)
That's a given. The environmentalists want lots of environmental spending in the watershed, but they also want the filtration plant. The plan is only good for one administration, and putting off the massive cost and increase in water bills -- at a cost in billions more in spending -- is its main purpose.
Don't know about that, being from Tallinn Estonia, we had a water filtration plant (population density about 10p per sq. mile.) Soviets weren't exactly worried about the public health neither were there any interests in spending money. The fact that there is no filtration here worries me and has patterned my "drinking habits"
Arti
[Don't know about that, being from Tallinn Estonia, we had a water filtration plant (population density about 10p per sq. mile.) Soviets weren't exactly worried about the public health neither were there any interests in spending money. The fact that there is no filtration here worries me and has patterned my "drinking habits"
Arti]
New York has traditionally had excellent water. The problem is that that's changing as there's new development in the watershed. For now, you're fine using a home water filter, which you should use anyway because of lead that leaches from the pipes. Even without, NYC's water is much better than it is in most of the country--just look at the recent nationwide crackdown on arsenic levels.
[For now, you're fine using a home water filter, which you should use anyway because of lead that leaches from the pipes. ]
Sure do! It just suprises me that there is no filtration. Did some study, I was wrong filtration in Tallinn is since 1925.
Arti
What's the Hudson River Skimming Project?
(What's the Hudson River Skimming Project?)
I'm not sure, but I believe this involves opening the Hudson River water plant in Dutchess County, which takes water off the top since PCBs are at the bottom. The water isn't considered good enough, and is only used in drought emergencies.
The skimming project is the Army Corps of Engineer's longstanding recommendation for increasing the City's water supply. So far the City has ignored it, preferring to rely instead on conservation measures such as metering (read: putting the crisis off till the next drought).
What ever happened to impounding another river?
Assuming another river is impounded, where would it be? It seems we'd have to go as far north as the Adirondacks. The Susquehanna River is pretty close to the edge of the watershed, but it looks too developed.
It's also pretty much used up, with the Conowingo Dam and the Baltimore/Harford County water tunnel drawing water. Harford uses it, we do only in cases of drought (like last summer). There's already a hue & cry about that, and we've has the rights since 1960.
When we started using Susquehanna water last summer, people claimed that the water tasted funny, which was pretty good considering the mix was 65% water from the Loch Raven\Liberty reservoirs and 35% Susquehanna water, and all of it went through the Montebello and Ashburton filtration plants. I didn't notice any difference in taste, and neither did anybody I know.
Don't know, haven't heard anything on it.
amen
avid
[Granted. However I can't understand the logic of building a 3rd water tunnel in case one of the first two fails, and not building a tunnel (or even a DeKalb to Rutgers connection) to replace the Manhattan Bridge, which HAS failed. It's just priorities. ]
Well, a human can't survive 48 h without water I can survive a weekend without transit. I'll bet a lot of others can too.
Arti
The water system provides for a lot of redundancy. For example, the city has water from the original Croton system, a Long Island style groundwater system (sans water tower) in parts of SE Queens and the newer Catskill/Delaware water system. In 1999 for some time, the Croton System and Groundwater system were closed and Catskill-Delaware provided the city's ENTIRE water supply. And Water Tunnel 3 will bring more C-D water into the city. The city can abandon Croton, yet they still will build a treatment plant to allow it to be there.
The Water system seems to be the only responsible, foresighted system still in New York.
They should extend it down 2nd Avenue and run subs in it.
This is what somebody at my NYC subway club @ yahoo posted.
This is what I think the NYC Subways should look like. I am only including those lines added or changed.
C-8 Ave Local/NJ Express from Rockaway Townsquare Mall.
G-to Court Square.
K-8 or 6 Av/NJ local same NJ terminal as C to Coney Island via Culver or World Trade Center.
7-Steinway Street Local-Stops at Queensboro Plaza.
M-to Bay Ridge 95 Street.
Q-Broadway Express,local to Flushing.
R-to Whitehall Street.
V-63 Street/6 Av Local to Church Av. or Bay Ridge 95 Street.
Z-Runs All Times from Broad Street
Culver Shuttle from 36 Street to Kings Highway.
Times Square Shuttle removed.
8-IRT Crosstown Local:All Stops from Brooklyn Bridge to Lenox Terminal.
Is this crazy or what?!?!?!?!
"Broadway/7 Avenue/Woodlawn/Flushing/Culver Jorge" Catayi
Only two of them are realistic. M to 95th St. b/c there aren't enough trains there. G to Court Square which is going to happen(already happening at nights...I think)
Found on the sidewalk one new Subway Series 2000 metrocard. It was a "Mike Hampton" card.
Where are the cards on-line? The website says "coming soon".
Typical NYC fashion.
Joe C.
06/06/2000
[Found on the sidewalk one new Subway Series 2000 metrocard. It was a "Mike Hampton" card.]
Also available from MVM's are the Rey Ordonez, Armando Brenitez and Mike Piazza. With Mike Hampton that's four in a series. Don't which MVM's have them but they'll disappear fast!
These are also availabkle on line at Citysearch. I was told there are posters in subway cars advertising them, but I haven't seen any yet.
OKAY, now my question. Are there four Yankee Metrocards coming out since this is a subway series?
Bill "Newkirk"
I am told there will be 2 versions of the cards.
One set with the MasterCard logo (available in the MVM's) and one set without (the logo) which are supposed to be available at the Tranist Museum Stores on Wednesday 6/7.
Thanks Allan. Will certainly check it out. As of now OnLine still doesn't have them. Can't believe it. I've found two on the sidewalk in two days. In my neighborhood in the Bronx. Of course, I buy a card from the MVM and get a plain vanilla.
Joe C.
The cards are now sold at the TA Nuseum. I got them at lunchtime.
They all have the master card logo on them too.
The Rey Ordonez card is $30.00 for $33.00 value.
The Mike Piazza card is $17.00 for 7 day unltd.
The Mike Hampton card is $15.00; The Armando Benitez card is $63.00 for 30 day unltd.
Joe C.
On Sunday, August 27, 2000, A special excursion train consisting of soon to be retired R33s/R36 Flushing line cars will operate over the IND and BMT divisions of New York City Transit. As a special treat, Observation car F116 will be part of the consist, and will be kept on the rear of the train. This will be a unique opportunity to ride and or photogaph NYCT's own "Private car" as it travels throughout the system. Seating on the observation car will be an extra fare, first come, first served basis and will be limited to the capacity of the car. This excursion is being sponsored by Subdivision C, Department of Subways, New York City Transit, To benefit the march of dimes.
THE ROUTE:
The special train will leave the 57th Streea and 7th Avenue station on the Broadway BMT (N and R lines) at 10:30 AM on Sunday, August 27, 2000. The trip itinerary currently includes the West End, Culver, Brighton and Jamaica BMT lines, The Queens IND and will include a trip over the Williamsburg Bridge, but may vary if the need arises. Be sure to join us for a memorable tip benefiting a worthwile charity.
Tickets are available by mail from:
NYCT Subdivision C - M.O.D. Trip
1311 Waters Place, Room 221
Bronx, NY 10461
Make all checks and money orders payable to: March of Dimes. Tickest bought on day of trip will be $5.00 extra.
.............................................
Prices:
Observation car F116 $50.00 each
Regular Adult $30.00 each
Childern (Up to age 14) $20.00 each
Send your Name, Address and Phone Number with payment.
This should be an interesting excursion. You figure that they'll have a full train available so there will be more than enough seats for everyone. Tack an R-33 single at each end of the train, have R-36s in the middle, and oh yes, let's not forget the Observation Car. I assume you mean the flat car with a bus carbody mounted on it.
But wait - if you put it at the end of the train, and keep it there, then the excursion train going to have to run through the yards and run around the car if they want to keep it at the end. Then again, going through Coney Island, Jamaica, or ENY Yards, you'll have the loop to turn the entire train around. But if you head to the end of the line, this becomes more problematic becomes the observation car remains at the end of the consist, but now is in front of the Train Operator's operatung position. How do they deal with this? Stay tuned....
-Stef
How about Bye, bye, (Red)Birdie as the theme song?:-)
Just my luck - another missed Farewell Fantrip. Such is life...
Mark, I see you picked up the same flyer that I did at the Model show on Saturday ... am wondering if the Train Dude has anything to do with this. Now if Bill or Erick were assigned to the train it would almost be part of Dave's August celebration of our favorite Web site !
If it has to do yard moves to turn, as Stef suggestes then it will be much more then just a Red Bird ride. Out-of-towners this is a must do for you, but sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.
BTW, I can't make this one as I'll be in NH for my annual AAA ball game 3 day weekend with some non-SubTalkers ... who I'll probally be taking for a ride since we'll be in the neighborhood ... Ding Ding
Mr t__:^)
sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.
Huh?
--Mark
[sorry to say they are not taking TRIPOD reservations.]
Huh?
--Mark
Mark, et. al., Which out-of-town SubTalker would need a reservation for his Tripod at the Storm Window on this Red Bird trip ... Oh that one !!!
Mr t__;-)
........QUESTION.......all of the redbirds be gone by this october ??......august is too soon for me ..........
as far as the tripod joke I can take it .........yes this one !!!!!.........me ..........
AFAIK, there will still be Redbirds plying the rails this fall. I think they're just being proactive with this farewell trip.
Or dare I say Early Birds?
Rim shot!
...........Slam dunk .....!!!!.......I am saving my money if I have to ride the DOG ...( greyhound to nyc this october )...........
to Launch PROJECT-REDBIRD...!!!!..And capture all of the last Classic NYC subway cars ....TAKE-THOSE-PICTURES-NOW...!!
Hope you got a chuckle from my Tripod joke, no mallice intended.
Think some of the Red Birds will be around for a while, but this is going to be one of those once in a lifetime trips, especially for you out-of-towners. I've had the good fortune of 11 years riding the 7th Ave and now being able to use the Flushing line to enter the system. The run from Main Street to Times Sq. is always an enjoyable one for me going against the rush so the Storm Window is always available.
Mr t__:^)
...you tripod joke didnt bother at all ,nice light good chuckes and good taste jokes is fine and allright with me ....
Like the joke about my ""MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER"" for example .The number # 7 vidieo is the greatest in my collection
when the REDBIRDS go down finally and the railfan storm door window is gone these vidieos will be priceless.....
By that time i will losad them into DVD video format so they will be preserved foerver DVD recorders are coming soon..
Keep on making good clean jokes about tripods & vidieo cameras pressed up against storm windows - railfan window etc.. I dont mind this at all ..
I shot 6 to eight hours on my beloved flushing # 7 line day and night !! the vidieo sells for only $ 20.oo ............
...you tripod joke didnt bother at all ,nice light good chuckes and good taste jokes is fine and allright with me ....
Like the joke about my ""MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER"" for example .The number # 7 vidieo is the greatest in my collection
when the REDBIRDS go down finally and the railfan storm door window is gone these vidieos will be priceless.....
By that time i will load them into DVD video format so they will be preserved foerver DVD recorders are coming soon..
Keep on making good clean jokes about tripods & vidieo cameras pressed up against storm windows - railfan window etc.. I dont mind this at all ..
I shot 6 to eight hours on my beloved flushing # 7 line day and night !! the vidieo sells for only $ 20.oo ............
(slap on the head) Duh!
Hopefully I'll be attending.
Can someone describe to me what the observation car is? I don't think I've ever seen one.
--Mark
http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=125997
Here is the link, it was pictured yesterday!
Yep - just saw it ... thanks Karl!
--Mark
Can you imagine that coming into a station on the front of a train, with all of those lights lit. It would probably give the impression of some type of a subway nightmare!
Someone would think that it's a train from the SUV division debated recently on this site :)
--Mark
Yeah, complete with driving lights, fog lights, the works.:-)
Last night as I passed the Melvern graduation event parked between the white & black limos was a 50' Hummer limo ... can you picture it on the front of train ? With some steel wheels under it, it would be almost high enough for the doors to open on a platform.
Mr t__:^)
Mark: The observation car is R-20 X-116 built by the Magor Car Company in 1957-58. It was fitted with a bus body and for many years was used for the annual fire department inspections of the subway system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's it. What a car. It infrequently visits the IRT. But in 1991, it operated on the IRT with R-33s 9102-03, 9106-07, 9150-51, and 9158-59. I always thought it was an odd car, but never knew exactly what it was for. Perhaps, it should be declared a Museum Piece for what is it's uniqueness as a car. Buses mounted on flat cars? It's unheard of.
-Stef
(As a special treat, Observation car F116 will be part of
the consist, and will be kept on the rear of the train).
What is that?
Unfortunately, I will be camping upstate on that day. If the observation car is what it sounds like, and the TA had two or three in a train, I'd bet they could run an excursion every Sat/Sunday and make money. 57th and 7th is right in the heart of the hotels, which alone could fill the train with tourists.
Unless there is more than one, this is a picture of car F116:
That's it! The one and only.
Not bad, but I'd still like to see the top ripped off a train of excess Redbirds, and seats installed, for use as an open air excursion train. The BMT southern division, the Flushing line, the Jamaica El, and Bronx els would be possible tour routes.
Yes there are liability issues, but heck Disney seems to be able to operate its rides with no problem. You'd just situate the cars far enough away from the edge to make it impossible to reach out and touch something you shouldn't accidently, and put straps on the seats. Just run them for special excusion trips, at $5.00 per ride, complete with recorded descriptions of the lines and stations. Subway as theme park!
The Disney Corporation is self insured (handled by the famous Llyods of London), not to mention net worth in the area of $85 Billion (with a 'B') dollars.
-Hank
Some people ALREADY think that riding the NYC Subway is an adventure.
And I'm NOT just talking about the railfans :)
--Mark
Wouldn't that be something to see rumbling into a subway station, especially with all of those lights lit?
Geez .. they took a BlueBird bus and stuck an IRT frame underneath it!!
--Mark
That's so they could call it a Yellow Bird with Blue B.....
A Mack, actually.
David
Yikes. Can you imagine what an RTS Car Body would look like mounted to a flat car?
-Stef
I think it would look quite a bit like a Winnebage with wings and a hyper-active drive.
Or maybe an RTL-II Turboliner.
-Hank :)
Oh dear! I don't think I can scrape up the money in time to get over. Does anyone know if any more farewell trips are planned or are likly to take place ? I must come over and say goodbye to the Redbirds
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon, Stay tuned to this Bat Channel as I'm sure a few will still be around. Some have said that their last stand will be on the Flushing line, if so that will still be a nice way to bid them farewell if you can make it later this year. I'ld be happy to do a "Field Trip" with a few of you who miss the August trip.
Mr t__:^)
WOW a ride on the INT...
Hey mark, is the typo the 'T' or the 'N'?
-Hank
If you read his narrative, you will see that the typo is the "T". It should be "D" as in IND.
The cynic in me says this: first, there has to be a point in the trip where the train has to change direction as you cannot operate from the F116 car. If it goes BMT Jamaica line, they have to flag all the way to or from ENY! It can go Queens IND to Continental and loop back around thru Jamaica Yard. Going to Parsons E or 179 F would, again, necessitate another flagging move. No problem with the Stillwell lines since you can go from the Brighton to the Sea Beach, for example with no problems. Secondly, with all the GO's going on every weekend, it would be tough to really plan a itenerary too far in advance.
The F116 car needs to be placed other than the head end. Of course you could run the entire train around it in a yard that has no loop, or some other place of convenience.
Surely it might be possible to run the train without changing ends? Go through Coney Island twice to cover the Brighton, West End, and Culver Lines. The Jamaica Line? If they're lucky they can get out to ENY, loop around, and go back over the Bridge. The Queens IND, you can go as far as Jamaica Yard. With what they have in mind, it seems doubtful that they'll get to the end of a line.
-Stef
Is it possible to run the train without changing ends?
What about this for a scenario: 1)Train is readied for service at Corona Yard. Wrong rail through upper level Queensboro Plaza without changing ends and Proceed to 57th St and 7th Av on the Bway Line. 2)57th St and 7th Av to Coney Island Yard via the Brighton Line. 3)Coney Island Yard to Jamiaca Yard via Stillwell Terminal, Avenue X approach, and Culver Lines (Loop through Stillwell Av Terminal). 4)Jamaica Yard to ENY Yard via Chrystie St connection (Loop Jamiaca Yard). 5)ENY Yard to Stillwell Av via Montague St Tunnel and West End Lines (Loop ENY Yard). 6) Stillwell Av to 57th St and 7th Av via Brighton Line (Loop through Terminal). 7)Discharge and return to Corona Yard.
How does that sound?
-Stef
If a diesel (prehaps one of the SBK units) is used on one end of the F116, then the trip could go over some truly interesting trackage...hint, hint ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe they need a former NY & Atlantic engineer to show them how to put the first car last. But I'll bet most of the trips are planned to turn in a yard with a loop.
Mr t__:^)
Do the subway tunnels still home and shelter a group of homeless people or has the NYPD homeless division eradicated this problem?
Sept 2 - Orange Empire Railway Museum
Sept 2 - Evening Slide show
Sept 3 - Los Angles Metro System, Metro System Control Center, Green line shop.
Sept 3 - Evening Annual Banquet
Sept 4 - San Diego via Amtrak
Full package of tours $150.00
Headquarters Hyatt Regency at 711 Hope Street @ $89 single/double per night
Deadline 15 Jul 2000
Contact
ERA
PO Box 3323
NYC, NY 10163-3323
....Nice.!!! Can I only buy the green red & blue lines metro center only ?? the orange empire is free except the
nice $ 6 .00 train rides .........I dont need lodging I live in pasadena ...........
Salaam,
Write to the address- ask for information about the convention. They'll send a flyer and order form for all the events "a la carte". You can buy the individual tours separately based on what interests you and skip the banquet if you like. Each one is something like $25 or $35. I had a flyer with the info but threw it away since I will be in England/Wales that weekend.
-Dave
p.s. you should also ask them to send you info about becoming an ERA member. I am not positive if you need to be a member to go to the convention events.
.........I will do just that !!!! thank you .....I am also joining the orange empire museum soon .........
Yes, ERA membership is required. But it's not terribly expensive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Starting today TA Museum NON members like me can call for these trips from Columbis Circle to Coney Island and back.
I did, they still have seats available so call N-O-W or miss the train ... 718-243-8601 (10 AM to 4 PM).
BTW on my wall is the June page from Bill Newkirt's calendar and it's a D-Type !
Mr t__:^)
Looking at it now, 2 gone but not forgotten NY Institutions, A D Triplex and Pan AM
Oh yes ... spend 15 years of my youth at JFK and saw a lot of this old World, but wasn't a railfan then so didn't see much RxRs :-(
Mr t
Is that the photo from 1949 on the Astoria line?
[Is that the photo from 1949 on the Astoria line? ]
Caption says May 1964
Mr t__:^)
Oops, wrong photo. The one you're referring to must be the one at Queensboro Plaza with the West End express, signed up as a 3.
That was in the 1999 calendar.
The June 2000 calendar "pin up" train is a D-type signed as "3 Queens Plaza", taken 1964.
--Mark
That's right. I got my calendars confused.
I just found out that the first D-Type on BMT property was delivered July 23rd, 1925! The last D-Types were retired exactly 40 years later, to the day. How often does THAT happen?
--Mark
Not very often, to say the least. It's more than likely pure coincidence. July 23, 1965 fell on Friday; we left the city for home that morning and returned to South Bend the following day. It's true the pilot units arrived in 1925 and were subsequently fitted with side sign boxes. The first production units arrived in 1927, the rest in 1928. It's safe to say the Triplexes would have had a legitimate shot at surpassing the Gibbs Hi-Vs in terms of longevity, had they been kept.
So I'm sure everyone's signed up for a trip already. I'm going on the first (6/18). A reporter from the New York Times might also be there covering the "subway buff" aspect...
-dave
Looking forward to meeting you.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'm signed up for the third trip on 7/23. (The weather will be the best that day :-)
I'm a question mark at this point. It's possible I may assist the Transit Museum during the excursion. That's unclear right now. If I do, I'll be a tall gentlemen wearing an orange TA vest.
-Stef
Stef, Go for it ! We're going to get you into the operation side one way or the other ... Ding Ding ... sorry Honk Honk.
Mr t__:^)
Is it sold out or can I do like I did last time and just show up...
I may try for the July 9 trip.
wayne
I'll be on all three.
I just sent in my $25.00 check for the June 18 trip. 'Mark' said I should get the ticket in the mail over the weekend. Hope to see you and possibly other Subtalkers on board.
That's my Father's Day present to myself. Beats having to barbecue.
Anybody know when service was restored from Jamaica Center?
Trains could not enter or leave the station at around 9AM due to a switch problem.
What did they do?
Arti
Does anyone know when the Acela Express will be running on Jun 12th and 17th?
Thanks, in advance.
There are station names that just crack up children and other new riders when they hear them, and every system has them. My nominations for funny station names, in no particular order other than alphabetizing the cities:
Boston: Wonderland, Alewife, Braintree, and Ruggles. State/Citizens Bank, because of the concept of a sponsored station and the reductio ad absurdum implications ("This station sponsored by your local Ford dealers" followed by unbearable elevator music to drive away passengers). As a terminal station, and thus the sign on the end of Blue Line trains, Wonderland is especially funny (I'm taking the train to Wonderland!)
Baltimore: Timonium, because it sounds like a diarrhea remedy. Point of Rocks on the MARC is vaguely amusing.
Chicago: Grand. Doesn't sound so funny, does it? But the recorded voice that announces stops in a very comprehensible but absolutely monotone voice calls out Grand (both the Red and Blue stops) as "This is Grand". Well, it's nice and all, but I wouldn't say it was grand. :^) "Chicago is next" and "This is Chicago" (three different stations, Red, Brown/Purple, and Blue) also get some laughs from the tourists.
New York City: The largest transit system in the U.S. is bound to have its share of funny names. Fresh Kills and New Dorp on the SIRT. Babylon ("Is that scantily clad woman leaning against the wall of the commuter station who I think she is?"), Hicksville, Glen Head, and Speonk on the LIRR. Mamaroneck and Cos Cob on the M-N. Flushing and Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the subway.
Philadelphia: War Minister, oops, I mean Warminster. :^)
Washington: Not a real guffaw-inducer, but mildly amusing, is East Falls Church, followed immediately and inevitably by West Falls Church. The ever-confusing triad of Metro Center, Federal Triangle, and Federal Center (brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department, I'm sure). Backlick Road on the VRE Manassas Line. Come to think of it, Manassas on the VRE Manassas Line. :^)
Any more nominations?
On the LIRR, I'll contribute "Ronkonoma." Also, I once told a tourist who asked me for directions on the LIRR to take such-and-such a train, and "Change at Jamaica." He told me he thought that trains couldn't travel over water... and wasn't the Carribean a bit far?
Here in Boston, additions include Waban (not to be confused with Woburn) and Woburn (not to be confused with Waban). Of course,
the official station stop name for Woburn is "Mishawum." [Believe it or not, Mishawum is an indian word for "Great Neck"! And
I though Great Neck was East Egg, right Gatsby fans?] Coming soon on the MBTA Lowell Commuter Rail Line is "Metro North."
Not to be confused with "Metro North."
You'd expect some weird names in Massachusettes, home of Lake Chagagagamanshagagagchubunagungamaug, near Webster and the Rhode Island border. I'm sure you'll forgive me if I spelled it wrong.
Beats me if it's spelled wrong! But of course in Massachusetts we also have Braintree (both a subway and commuter rail station), Athol (pronounced ATH-ole, if you please!) and Belchertown. And the Red Line stops at North Quincy (pronounced Quin-zee), Quincy Adams, and Quincy Center. A favorite of many, also on the Red Line, is JFK/UMass. Some have been known to leave out a strategically placed "M" when saying it...
[But of course in Massachusetts we also have Athol (pronounced ATH-ole, if you please!)]
I didn't know you had a lisp.
LOL
I also think Todd meant to say "NAHTH Quin-zee":-)
That sounds just supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
(That sounds just supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!)
It's an indian name. I think it means terriorial meeting place at the waters, or something. I was there in the 1970s. Perhaps they've shortened the name by now.
I heard that the (almost) literal translation of the name is "You fish on your side, we fish on our side and no one fishes in the middle."
For subway stations with unusual names, there's always Baltimore's Mondawmin.
And the Famous Anaheim Azuza and Cugumona(Spelling wrong) Funny thing was they were all old Santa Fe Stations, but Anaheim was on the San Diego Branch,and the other 2 were on the Pasadena Line, and you could not get from one to anoher unless you came from Anaheim via LA
And somewhere in Wales, there is the quaint little village of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysiliogogogoch; not sure if there's a train station there.
wayne
The first time that I rode Baltimore's Metro, I was rather surprised to hear Mondawmin, and also Shot Tower.
How about Shepherd's Bush on the London Central LIne? I kid you not.I'm sure it isn't only us rednecks that would get a laugh out of that!
We could really have a field day if some of these towns in Pennsylvania had subway stations. Can you just imagine stations named Paradise, Bird in Hand or Blue Ball?
And of course, there's INTERCOURSE...
as well as fun-sounding places like:
JIM THORPE (Mauch Chunk)
YOE (your mama!)
FISHS EDDY (wasn't he a band leader in the '40s?)
NANTY GLO (sounds like a floor wax)
EIGHTY FOUR (their average age?)
PUNXSUTAWNEY
LEETONIA
WAWA
ONO (next to the town of YOKO)
Again, not sure if all of these have train stations (probably not) but these sure sound like a bunch of fun places. Where do they get these names from, anyway?
wayne
Carabonga, Buffalo Bob!!
Also, NOBODY mentioned one of Philadelphia's winners for oddball station names - Tulpehocken!!
Mythical PA railroad: The Consahocken, Tulpehocken and Wissahicken Rail Road Company.
..........like the station named ""SOUTH BERRY"".......????.....!!!!
I'm really sorry I had to fight with you all this time. I never knew you REALLY had a mental disability
You ain't just whistling Dixie. Why do you think we labled him as "The Man with No Brain".
I thought he was just a fool, I didn't think he had severe problems that we shouldn't make fun of.
I mean not only does he think it's called South Berry beyond all logical reasons, he won't change his mind regardless of what he's told. He looks like 100% Creedmoor/Ward's Island material.
... run by the "Hock and a Chineck" division of the holding company ....
--Mark
I've been in most every one except Wawa, which I missed somehow. I really thought that was the name of a convienance store in the Philly area.
Punxsutawney is a really nice little town, I get to spend a few days there every July because of a craft show. I have not found the train station yet, but there is a railroad that goes through the town.
I'll bet that you didn't know that Oklahoma was in Pennsylvania too!
Interesting that Paradise PA is in the same area as Intercourse. Good thinking. If there';s an Oklahoma PA so is an Indiana...James Stewart born there. How about Coxsackie NY? That doesn't take much thought.
Too bad there isn't an Afterglow in that vicinity.:-)
[I've been in most every one except Wawa, which I missed somehow. I really thought that was the name of a convienance store in the Philly area.]
The store chain has its headquarters in the town, hence its name.
I had quite a discussion with a friend from South Carolina about ten years ago when he criticized tha Wawa name as being a pretty dumb name for a store. I asked him if he thought a store named Piggly Wiggly was any better.
Piggly Wiggly is Pigs favorite store.
Peace,
ANDEE
Pigs has tried so many different handles that I wonder if he ever considered Piggly Wiggly!
It does have a nice rhyme to it!
Karl: Metro-North will take you to the "Gate of Heaven" and Amtrak goes to Hell's Gate, but the Strasburg Railroad will take you to Paradise.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On the Strasburg RR you can get to Paradise without going through Intercourse! :-)
There is a Wawa, Ontario on Rt. 17 as you head north along the eastern shore of Lake Surperior.
I'll bet that you didn't know that Oklahoma was in Pennsylvania too!
You have no idea in how many places you'll find Brooklyn :)
--Mark
I know, we have a Brooklyn in Susquehanna County, Pa, and believe me, it is nothing like the one in New York.
Out of a need to know. What is it like?
Peace,
ANDEE
It was more than fifty years ago that I was there to attend an on-site household auction of a deceased distant relative. It seemed to be nothing more than a intersection of two country roads then. It was just a few miles south of Montrose, which is the county seat of Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania.
I checked a current atlas and can not find a listing, so perhaps it does not exist anymore. Many small towns lost their post offices since the end of WWII. I do know that it was spelled Brooklyn, because I lived in Brooklyn, New York at the time, and couldn't get over the differences between two places with the same name.
I know, we have a Brooklyn in Susquehanna County, Pa, and believe me, it is nothing like the one in New York.
It is still hotly debated weither or not Brooklyn joined New York or New York joined Brooklyn.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Not to mention Florida, NY.....
But we have a Venus, Pa!
[But we have a Venus, Pa!]
No De Milo?
No, that's one we don't have. We do have a Mars, Pa!
And there's also Mars Hill, North Carolina (home of Mars Hill College) as well as Aho, Eden, Hamlet, Concord (pronounced con-cord, not konk-erd), and Spring Hope - all of them stops on one RR or another at one time (Concord and Mars Hill on the Southern, Spring Hope on a branch of the Atlantic Coast Line, the others I don't remember - although Hamlet is still a major rail junction today).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And there's a "Mars" station on the Metra-Milwaukee West line. It's an in-city stop (Oak Park Avenue) right next to the M&M/Mars factory. The neighborhood isn't called Mars, just the station.
The system that has the most humourous English station names, at least to Americans is the London Underground. Besides "Shepard's Bush", here in no particular order are some of the other station names:
"Seven Sisters"
"Blackhorse Road"
"Gospel Oak"
"Chalk Farm"
"Uxbridge"
"Hornchurch"
"Cutty Sark"
"Shoreditch"
"Barking"
"West Harm"; "East Harm"; and "Dagenharm East"
"Pudding Mill Lane"
"Hackney Wick"
"Swiss Cottage"
"Piccadilly Circus"
"Chancery Lane"
"The Temple"
"Blackfriars"
"Canary Wharf"
"Hammersmith"
and my personal favorite: "Elephant & Castle"
There's a Saint Pancras station on both the Circle Line and British Rail. (It was the scene of a huge fire with large loss of life in 1987.) For the longest time, I thought it was Saint Pancreas!
You can tell a Yank if he pronounces Leicester Square as 'Ly-chester' instead of the proper 'Lester'.
I made that mistake while in London in 1978. It came out "LY-kester".
Speaking of Piccadilly Circus, IIRC a circus in the UK is what we refer to as a traffic circle.
Monty Python fans will recognize Uxbridge. That's where the road climbing sketch took place. It's on the same show as the Cheese Shop.
Ladies and Gentlemen ... boys and girls .. it's time for the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Traffic Circle :)
--Mark
Saint Pancreas? Mus' be the patron saint of Diabetics! :o>>>
I think Elephant & Castle was (or, perhaps, IS) a Pub - it is a corruption of "L'Enfant De Castile", which is French for "The Child of Castille (in Spain)", referring to some French or Spanish nobleman. Perhaps some local wag butchered the name and it stuck.
I like "OVAL" - simple yet perplexing. Never mind that's what they call their cricket field... And why on earth would they want to name a station "ANGEL"?
wayne
It's ....siliogogoch, not ....siliogogogoch.
It's the world's longest train station name.
There IS a railway station there -- I forget the URL t th web page, but on the station signage, they shortened it to about a dozen letters.
Are we talking about American Names or in the English Languag only?
........how about that subway station ""SOUTH BERRY"".........???
Salaam,
If you are talking about New York it's South Ferry, not Berry!
The "LL" train must stop there! :o>
wayne
Near my brother-in-law, in Sharon, Mass, is a road called something like Lake Molomolopolopoag. Everytime we pass that street sign it makes me laugh.
--Mark
[On the LIRR, I'll contribute "Ronkonoma." Also, I once told a tourist who asked me for directions on the LIRR to take such-and-such a train, and "Change at Jamaica." He told me he thought that trains couldn't travel over water... and wasn't the Carribean a bit far?]
The LIRR also has hard-to-pronounce Yaphank and Copiague, Rockville Centre with its pretentious spelling, and the just plain odd case of Country Life Press.
If we're counting irony, I nominate Washington Metro's "Shady Grove" in Maryland. This is the last stop on the Red Line, and it's surrounded by a GIGANTIC parking lot -- not a lick of shade in sight.
How about Foggy Bottom?
Atlanta: Hamilton E. Holmes
East Point and West End are on the South line, but at least West Lake is on the West line and East Lake is on the East Line
Great Neck is WEST Egg.
Excellent, Old Sport.
Why don't you get Tom and Daisy and we'll take a spin down on the Sound?:):)
No one said the obvious:
Jamaica (the island?)
Also up there (some words hyphenated to indicate why it's strange)...
Flushing 7
LIRR:
Smithtown
Locust Manor
Hunters-point
Flat-bush
NJT:
New-ark
Ho-Ho-Kus (Cuss?)
Kings-land
Ridgewood, Woodridge, Woodbridge, not much wood near any of these stops
Middletown (also name of MNRR station, Hoboken terminal has direct trains to both!)
Hack-en-sack (and all variations).
Teter-Boro (there's also an airport there, teeter not a word you want to hear on a plane!)
Little Falls
Garfield
Brick Church
Convent Station
Hackettstown
Red Bank
Pt. Pleasant & Bay Head consecutive
MNRR:
Suffern
Middletown, town of Wallkill
Salisbury Mills - Cornwall
Tuxedo
Cos Cob
Purdy's
Sputen-Duyvill
Breakneck Ridge
Also, Middletown, NY is a city. Shouldn't it be Middlecity? :-)
No..its MiddleTOWN...and don't ask what its in the middle of, either, nobody's real sure why it was named "Middle'town....Actually a funny fact is that for about 50-60 years, OFFICIALLY according to the Post Office; Middletown was SOUTH Middletown, because there was a 'Middletown' somewhere up in the Adirondacks...although there are no stories of mail ever having gone there instead of here...
I thought that Middletown was a chartered city?
It is now, but it started as a very small(and not-so successful)village...things really didn't start happinin' here until they bribed the Erie to route thru town in 1848. It was chartered as a city in 1888...
Another one on the NJT Main is Mahwah.... Also Tuxedo gets a snicker sometime..and in the old Erie days Goshen...The only reason our MN station is called "Middletown/Town of Wallkill" is because the local sleazes who run the TOW pressured the NY state government to change it...technically, yes, it is situated in the Town of Wallkill...but just about everyone who lives in the Town of Wallkill anywhere NEAR Middletown tends to say they are from Middletown, not the TOW, which annoys their officials IMMENSLEY. Part of their probem is that the Post Office is still Middletown, the TOW doesn't show on road maps,and all the exits on I84 and 17 all say 'Middletown'....
[Another one on the NJT Main is Mahwah]
Which sounds like a baby's first word :-)
I remember the fifty year old story about the conductor walking through the train in New Jersey calling out the name of the next stop.
"Dunellen" he said "Dunellen"
A sweet, young feminine voice answers from the bathroom,
"Yes, thank you, all but the paper!"
Another one for New York: Nyack, but only for those who are reading it. And Sheepshead Bay.
Atlanta: Buckhead, Dunwoody sounds kind of funny
Fishkill comes to mind, but I can't remember if Metro North goes that far, let alone stops there.
Fishkill goes much farther, but doesn't stop.
MN stops at Beacon. Fishkill is a few miles east.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was an effort by some animal rights group to have the name "Fishkill" changed to "Fishsave" because it sounded detrimental to the preservation of fish in the creek.
I kid you not. It was big news in Dutchess County for a while.
--Mark
Don't forget my favorites of the Brighton Line... Brighton Beach and Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue. Hmm... how do you spell that station on the J/Z Line... It's between Myrtle and Broadway - Eastern Parkway. It begins with a K. I think it's Kosciosko. (I can never get the spelling right.)
You're close, it's Kosciusko!
KOSCIUSZKO , which is pronounced "ka-SHOO-sko".
wayne
Gee! I have been gone from the city too long!
Kosciusko used to be pronounced cos-key-ah-sko!
No, its still spelled the same,but to be P.C. the pronunciation is now done in the original language. For example Peking is now Beijing.
In the past many things were anglosized. I kind of like the flavor and color of the original names from the old world and eastern world. The same can be said for the native american names through out the country.
Lackawanna, Mississippi,Wyoming,Lakota,Idaho
avid
If Peking is supposed to be pronounced Beijing wouldn't it be easier to spell it Beijing in the first place.
The town name that always fascinated me is in upstate New York. It's Cazenovia (hope I spelled it right).
>>>"ka-SHOO-sko". <<<
Gueshundhit
Beat me to it :)
--Mark
Some former stations of the LIRR
The Raunt
Kouwenhoven
Ford's Corner - was also called Rugby
Penny Bridge
Frankiston
Island Trees
Club House
Fashion Race Course
Goose Creek
NJ Transit has a few: Wood-Ridge (not, it's *not* one word), Peapack (thank God it isn't fudge), Netcong (no Viet?), Convent Station (you really don't have to be a nun to use it), Tuxedo (no casual Fridays here, thank you), and last but not least, the ever-popular Ho-ho-kus.
How about Neck Rd. (on the Brighton line).
Septa has lots of less than pronounceable names...
I still chuckle at Washington Metro's "Foggy Bottom," because it's just funny, and both "Grosvenor" and "Judiciary Square," because the conductors said them as many different ways as there were conductors. But the last time I was in D.C., a recorded voice was announcing station names. I wasn't on a train to either of these stations though, so I didn't get to hear the definitive pronunciations.
More in DC (with the help of a friend) are Foggy Bottom-GWU (Blue/Orange) and Ballston (Orange). I also think the suffixes on some of the stations are a little wierd. They are Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (red), West Falls Church-VT/UVA (Orange), Vienna/Fairfax-GMU (Orange), U Street/African American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo (Green and that is the official name, it has yet to be put on maps), and Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center (Green/Yellow, this has yet to appear on maps as well).
I think I have a reason for those long names:
The arches in many Metro stations are no longer so structurally sound, so by lengthening the names, they have a backhanded reason for extending the columns to the ceiling. :-)
.............yea.........stations like ........"""SOUTH-BERRY""".............!!!!!!!!!!...................?.
More in DC (with the help of a friend) are Foggy Bottom-GWU (Blue/Orange) and Ballston-MU (Orange). I also think the suffixes on some of the stations are a little wierd. They are Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan (red), West Falls Church-VT/UVA (Orange), Vienna/Fairfax-GMU (Orange), U Street/African American Civil War Memorial-Cardozo (Green and that is the official name, it has yet to be put on maps), and Mt. Vernon Square/7th Street-Convention Center (Green/Yellow, this has yet to appear on maps as well).
Actually, Fresh Kills (the highest point on the Eastern Seaboard, most odorous too) is not on the SIR. You're looking for Great Kills (still funny).
On the Chicago els, There are two stations that follow one another "Howard" and "Jarvis", which is just south of "Howard" on the map. Howard Jarvis was the name of a tax crusader in California who, around 1978, successfully pushed "Prosition 13", a tax-rollback initiative. He also had a cameo in the Zucker/Abrahams/Zucker film "Airplane", as a taxi cab fare.
Here's a few from Philly:
Paoli: Ooh, pasta!
Marcus Hook: Arr!
Crum Lynne: And Morsel Tim
Primos, Angora, Upsal, Tulpehocken, Conshohocken, Fortuna, Link Belt,
Oreland, scene of the 1849 Philadelphia gold rush, Colmar, Hatboro(HQ of Hair Club for Men), Croydon and Bryn Mawr.
Plus new stations Thorndale and Churchman's Crossing.
The area, especially the Main Line, is loaded with old Scotch and Indian names(our famous -hockens), Dutch(Schuylkill-pronounced Skoo-kill).
I personally always thought the LIRR had the weirdest names(Mattituck, Yaphank, Ronkonkoma-I used to say Ron-kun-koma, Montauk).
....Oreland, scene of the 1849 Philadelphia gold rush, Colmar, Hatboro(HQ of Hair Club for Men), Croydon and Bryn Mawr.
Chicago also has a Bryn Mawr, on the Howard end of the Red Line. Which brings us to another silly trivia question to ponder: What station names show up in more than one city, or more than once in the same city?
We've established Chicago and Philly both have Bryn Mawr.
Chicago and Boston share Wellington, Chinatown (in Chicago it's Cermak / Chinatown, to be fair), Davis, Washington, and Central. The T also has a station at State; CTA has the State Street Subway. Boston has a train that goes from Oak Grove to Forest Hills. Chicago has a train that goes to Forest Park via Oak Park.
Chicago and Atlanta both have stops on North Avenue. (In Chicago, it's actually North/Clybourn. But North Avenue on the CTA is south of South Boulevard.)
Atlanta and Boston both have Airport stations, not surprisingly. (In Chicago both the airport stations are named after the specific airports they serve, O'Hare and Midway.)
Boston and New York share Forest Hills and Broadway. New York has a Cleveland Street and a Columbus Circle. Boston has Cleveland Circle.
Not counting stations named after numbered streets, Chicago and New York share Wilson Ave, Montrose, Grand, Main Street, Clinton, Central, Harlem, and Clark. (In Chicago it's Clark/Division. But the CTA also makes a stop at Central Park.) New York has Grand Central, Grand Concourse, Grand Army Plaza, Grand Street and Grand Avenue; Chicago has just plain Grand.
New York has four Canal Street stations, three Chambers, two Cortlants, three Church Avenues, two Newkirk Avenues, three Kings Highways, three Fort Hamilton Parkways and more Broadways than I care to count.
Chicago has three Ciceros, three Pulaskis, three Addisons, three Halsteds, four Kedzies and a whopping five Western Avenue stations. Not to mention two each of Harlem, Oak Park, Austin, Washington, Monroe, Jackson, Division, Garfield, and Irving Park.
I've probably missed a few, and I'm sure there's more duplicates in other cities that I'm not as familiar with. I wonder which station name appears in the most cities? Chicago, New York and Boston each have at least one station named Central.
-- David
Boston, MA
I think there are SIX Canal Streets:
Canal (1/9)
Canal (Holland tunnel) (A/C/E)
Canal (6)
Canal (N/R)
Canal (Bridge station)
Canal (J/M/Z)
and there's 3 Avenue "U"s too.
wayne
Don't forget about 7th Ave (Brooklyn and Manhattan), and 50th Street (Brooklyn and Manhattan) and 59th Street (same) as well as 86th St (same).
You wanna go where? :)
--Mark
I want to go from 36th Street to 36th Street. (shall I take the "R" train?)
wayne
YUP, but we are not considering number streets if you read a earlier post
Of course. Americans like to use number street. In New York City Subway, there are lots of duplicate number st. station names. Also, streets and avenues makes confusion.
Especially Brooklyn where there are 2 West 9th Sts, and how many other with the number 9, Pigs should know.
West 9th Street (Carroll Gardens)
West 9th Street (Gravesend/Bensonhurst)
9th Street
9th Avenue
East 9th Street
South 9th Street
North 9th Street
Paerdegat 9th Street
Flatlands 9th Street
There seems to be even more with 10 on it especially in Brighton Beach
Yes, there is no Brighton 9th Street.
There are also Four Chambers Street Stations:
IRT 1,2,3,9
BMT J,M,Z
IND A,C
IND E
Cortlandt Street has two stations: IRT 1,9 and BMT N,R
And five 42nd St. stations:
IND 8th Ave. A, C, E
IND 6th Ave. B, D, F, Q
IRT 1, 2, 3, 9 aka Times Square
BMT N, R aka Times Square
IRT 4, 5, 6. aka Grand Central
The Times Square end of the shuttle has "42" on the station walls in addition to "Times Square", so I would give that an honorable mention.
Philly shares Chinatown with Chicago and Boston on the Broad/Ridge Spur.
A-Train, Broadway in Brooklyn, Broadway-Fulton F-2 Broadways in 3 stations Broadway-Laffayette and E Broadway, plus runs under Broadway in Queens. N-Broadway in Astoria and it is the Broadway Line,Ft Hamilton PKY B-F-N, 95thSt-Ft Hamilton(R) The actual name for the Manny Bridge Manhatten Station is Broadway-Canal St. There are so many
City Hall is in both Philly and NYC.
Philadelphia has 3 Alegheny station if you count regional rail. Also, I would imagine other systems have a Church station, or a Snyder station or a Huntingdon station, or possibly a Logan Station.
"Also, I would imagine other systems have a Church station, or a Snyder station or a Huntingdon station, or possibly a Logan Station."
CTA has an "almost Logan": Logan Square station on the Blue Line.
What's really funny is how the E stops at the Jamaica Van Wyck station and bypasses the Van Wyck Blvd (renamed Briarwood-Van Wyck) station on it's route in Queens. I dunno of any other line which does this, do U?
ONE MORE THING - NY also has 2 Penn Stations, 2 161st Street/Yankee Stadium stations, about 4 125th Street stations, 2 Dyckman Street stations, I'm not even gonna name all the stations on the Upper West Side on the 8 Ave (IND) & 7 Ave/Broadway (IRT) lines, and also the East Side IRT lines, 2 City Hall Stations (Brooklyn Bridge or even the old loop station,) and a couple of Wall Street stations. Right now I'm gonna stop because now I understand why you missed some of them :)
But all of the duplicate street name stations stop on the same street or in the same place. Big deal. If you're boarding the wrong train to begin with, then you have a completely different problem.
Not to forget Bryn Mawr on the Metra Electric(IC) South Chicago branch. And in classic railroad times the multitude of mainline stations on 63rd Street two of which were called Englewood
Not to forget Bryn Mawr on the Metra Electric(IC) South Chicago branch.
Actually, I believe that Bryn Mawr was the former name of the south side street now known as Jeffery Blvd. Sometime in the 1940s or 50s (I think) the City of Chicago renamed a bunch of streets to eliminate duplicate names (there's also a Bryn Mawr on the north side). However, the IC never changed the name of the station.
-- Ed Sachs
I know the very Bryn Mawr on the north side you speak of. My aunt lives a block south of the Red line station on that street. Her apartment building is right next to the elevated structure, which for those of you who may not be familiar with that particular line, is built on an embankment at that point, with concrete retaining walls on either side. It's a nice, straight stretch between Wilson and Grandville, running along an alley between Broadway and Winthrop Ave.
david vartanoff wrote:
> And in classic railroad times the multitude of mainline
> stations on 63rd Street two of which were called Englewood
The names weren't quite identical, though. The more easterly of the two, served by NYC, PRR, Rock Island, and Nickel Plate, was just plain Englewood. The one a couple of blocks farther west, used by C&EI, Wabash, Monon, and Erie, was called Englewood Union Station.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The 'E' stops at 23rd Street and 8th Avenue in Chelsea. The 'F' stops at 23rd Street and 6th Avenue, also in Chelsea. Both trains stop at 23rd Street/Ely Avenue and 44th Drive in Long Island City.
I often pass by the latter station in the course of my daily commute. At least once a week some confused approaches me for assistance, usually with a Chelsea address in hand. Just try explaining that they got off at the WRONG 23rd Street station.
It's even better when the person has boarded the train downtown or Brooklyn, which conveys the fact they already PASSED their intended 23rd Street station!
The station should be renamed Court Square, like the G station.
How about the B, First Stop Bay 50th, then later on 50th Street, and again later again 50th St Manhatten
No, because you have Bay 50th, 50th, then 47th-50th Rockefeller Center. In this case, the TA has to keep the obsolete name in order to prevent confusion.
More duplicate NYC stations:
2 Beverley Roads (Brighton and IRT)
3 Bay Parkways (N,B,F)
Avenue U is Brighton and Culver
Kings Highway-Brightno, Culver, Sea Beach
Ft Hamilton Pkwy- F,N,B
Kingsbridge, Fordham, Bedford Park- Concourse and Jerome
Gun Hill- 2 and 5
Wall Street, Fulton Street, Rector St. Sutphin Blvd,Woodhaven Blvd
No, there's only one Beverley, on the D. The 2/5 has Beverly.
Same Street Though, different spelling, why? don t ask we went thru this earlier this year.
Avenue U has a nice lyrical ring to it.
Some conductors on both the subway and LIRR pronounce Nostrand with a short 'o' so it reminds you of those two holes at the front of your nose.
Somehow, Knickerbocker and Whitlock always sounded funny to me.
NJT has Delawanna, Plauderville (sounds more like a backwater burg in the South than a subdivision of Garfield) and Campbell Hall (a dormitory?)
Metro North's Danbury branch has Merritt 7, named for the confluence of the two named roadways. Sounds more like a gas station. Rye is also a funny name; our day camp counselor would announce that today we were going to "Bread Beach".
Overheard in Grand Central: "Is this the train to Dover Plains?"
Many Penn Station and Jamaica announcers love to really draw out "Mass-a-PEQ-ua!".
NJT's Coast Line has Matawan and Manasquan.
SEPTA used to have Wawa on its defunct West Chester branch. There's also Manayunk on R6 Norristown, and at the other end, Bala Cynwyd, which some wits would refer to as "Ball o' cyanide".
In a very confusing pattern, Chestnut Hills East and West are on two separate branches that depart the Center City tunnel in opposite directions. Of course, before the 1983 consolidation, one branch ran out of Suburban Station and 30th Street; the other out of the old Reading Terminal through Temple. The actual terminals are a block and a half apart.
Then there's MFL's Margaret-Orthodox. I feel sorry for anyone named Margaret who lives in Philadelphia.
Real confusion: Eddington/Eddystone. Wayne/Wayne Junction. Langhorne/Lansdale/Lansdowne/Lawndale.
Our names are being stolen: Ardsley, Gladstone, Newark, Prospect Park, Roslyn, Malvern, Levittown, Forest Hills, Clifton, Wayne.
. Wayne/Wayne Junction
At least they had the good sense to name these stations after a famous Broolkyn sub-talker.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I like best when the train door open/closer announces ACK A DUCK , NO CAN DO IT for Aquaduct/North Conduit .
avid
Do you think all of this pronounciation problem started with the conductors on the R-16's saying "Watchadoors"!
How about the town of Neptune, NJ (next to Asbury Park). The boardwalk area has casinos, restaurants and hotels, but they are completely abandoned and deserted. Nobody lives on/in Neptune . . .
The only worse thing would be a town named Uranus - either way you pronounce it, it's either [yer-ANUS] or [URINE-es].
How about a town named Earth?
PERSON 1: Where do you live?
PERSON 2: Earth
PERSON 1: Smart a$$!
In Hong Kong there is a station called Olympic but neither a Olympic-like Stadium nor a sportsground is there and actually it is a part of old city sprawl on the reclamed land. Its real place name is TAI KOK TSUI, so people may be confuse by its station name. You can find it when you take TUNG CHUNG LINE ( a part of airport railway in MTR but not airport express).
You can't find diamond in Diamond Hill because it is the translation problem (The meaning in Chinese is Minding Hill).
Long name never be a good name but sometime short name is not a good name to like the Grand in Chicago (Grand for what?).
Hong Kong Station and Central Station in Hong Kong MTR is the same station with long exchanging passege because of different time of building. Why don't they use the same name.
[Hong Kong Station and Central Station in Hong Kong MTR is the same station with long exchanging passege because of different time of building. Why don't they use the same name?]
Due to the time reason, I can't type a lot there. Actually, MTR uses a general naming system for Airport Railway. That why there is Hong Kong Station and Kowloon Station. Hong Kong can either represents an island and a city. Kowloon represents the peninsula. MTR use them as a station name? Just suppose there is a station called "NEW YORK". New York Can represents a state or a city. If MTA had a station called New York, this may be the most humorous station name in America.
Originally, there is a station in KCR called Kowloon which has been renamed as Hung Hom to prevent duplicate with Kowloon Station in AR.
So that a station should be called as Central Station become Hong Kong Station. The problem is tourist taking Airport Express don't know Hong Kong Station is which part of Hong Kong. The same case for Kowloon Station.
It can also represent New York County. It is the only place in the United States where the state, city and county have the same name at the same time.
I'll ask the ticket agent for a round trip to Erster Bay. You know, where Norton attended P.S. 31.
Once at Hoboken (HoBOKen?! Ooooh, I'm DYYYYYIN!!), I asked for a round trip to Good Notch on the Boonton Line. They didn't get it.
What aboot Hatboro, that's much more amusing than Warminster. also don't forget that Pardise PA out on the main line once had a station.
Some of the other NY stations were already mentioned. How about these ....
Freeman St: all other stations are subject to slavery.
Kings Highway: for royalty only.
Fresh Pond Road: C'mon, where you gonna find a fresh pond in NYC?
Sheepshead Bay: Please check your staffs in before you board the trains. (What IS the origin of that name?)
Rector St: As a kid, you had a lot of fun with this one.
Gun Hill Road: Sounds like some battle occurred there (or was it an apt description for the neighborhood at one time :)
Also, Hunters Point Av (#7) and Hunts Point Av (#6) was always a source of confusion for me.
--Mark
"Also, Hunters Point Av (#7) and Hunts Point Av (#6) was always a source of confusion for me."
This was the basis for a funny scene on "Mad About You." Paul and Jamie are operating a token booth in a subway station (Union Square?) and a particularly obnoxious passenger ("HURRY UP! I haven't got all day!") asks for directions to Hunterspoint Avenue. Jamie gives here some directions -- the audience doesn't hear them -- and when the passenger leaves, Paul complements her for keeping her cool with a trying customer. Jamie responds (basically) "I fixed her! I gave her directions to Hunts Point Avenue instead. Ha, she won't come out alive!"
The whole thing is even funnier when you recall that Jamie is played by Helen Hunt.
my one question is why are they runing the token booth????
IIRC, Paul and Jamie were getting on the subway near their apartment when Paul recognized the token clerk as an old film-school chum. When they started talking, the clerk became so disappointed at his failure in contrast to Paul's moviemaking success that he just walked away despondently -- with the token booth door open. Paul and Jamie took over because they felt responsible for driving him away and didn't want him to lose his job.
Really, the way Reiser & Hunt play the scene, it's MUCH funnier than how I've described it.
Gun Hill Road was part of the original pre-revolutionary Boston Post Road.
On January 25, 1777, a small party of Americand dragged a cannon to the top of the hill west of the Bronx River and fired on a British force. This hill is now inside Woodlawn Cemetery (Summit Sector) and was called Gun Hill long afterwards.1
1McNamara, John, History in Asphalt: The origin of Bronx Street and Place Names, Third Revised Edition (Bronx, NY: Bronx County Hist. Soc, 1991) 119.
Proposed MetroLink Stop: Rancho Cucamonga (Thanks Mel Brooks)
Next stop Intercourse, Pennsylvania, off here for Intercourse.
(There is another town in Indiana which is just as bad as this one)
WELLLLLLL...
Don't keep us all in suspense........
What's the name? 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
French Lick, Indiana
Hello, I'm building a model of an R-27 as they appeared in the early 1970s.
I need to find a stationary subway train, preferably an R-32 - R 40, with an open view of the wheels and components for accurate reproduction in the model.
I couldn't find any good pictures on this site for the project.
Thank you in advance for assistance.
If you're near Coney Island yard, you might find one on the "scrap track" near McDonald Ave close enough for you to make your sketches.
In fact, there is a pair of R-30s sitting right near there .....
--Mark
It happened again this morning to me. . .
As my "R" train was going through the tunnel from Queens Plaza to Lex. Ave., I (and many others) distinctly smelled cigarette smoke. I was riding in the front car and was up against the front wall which meant that it was either coming from outside or from the operator. Regardless, it was amazingly nauseating in such a confined space.
Is this the operator getting a quick puff during that 3-minute stretch or just hanging smoke in the tunnel?? This has also happened to me as I sat in the Conductor's car on the "7" Express train between 61st and Junction Blvd (quite a distance, as well).
Has anyone ever noticed this and is there someone to complain to about it?
-Jason
jbrown:
In December of 1993 I was riding the front car of the "F" train and I noticed that the TO and a pack of cigarettes on top of the console and he was smoking. I think that NO ONE on the train crew should be permitted to smoke while there are passengers on the train because there are some of those who can become quite ill when they breathe other peoples cigarette smoke. As for passengers that smoke they should be subjected to a hefty fine if they're caught smoking on the train. Smokers should realize that they are using a public facility and should think of others who dislike or cannot tolerate other peoples' cigarette smoke. If they wish to smoke please do so elsewher NOT ON THE TRAINS!!
BMTJeff
Why fine just the passengers. The law says no smoking in the subway. Fine everyine including T/O, C/R, tower people, track workers, EVERYBODY !!!!
A driver on the N6 was smoking in full view of his passengers. One woman complained to the driver, who responded with a barrage of sarcasm.
On my daily ride home from high school on the Q76 some twenty-five years (!!) ago, we'd pick up a load of smoking Saint Francis Prep students. The driver wouldn't say anything; he'd just light up himself (a cigarette, that is!).
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
jrf:
You are right, they should fine ANYONE that smokes in the subway system INCLUDING staff.
BMTJeff
jbrown:
In December of 1993 I was riding the front car of the "F" train and I noticed that the TO and a pack of cigarettes on top of the console and he was smoking. I think that NO ONE on the train crew should be permitted to smoke while there are passengers on the train because there are some of those who can become quite ill when they breathe other peoples cigarette smoke. As for passengers that smoke they should be subjected to a hefty fine if they're caught smoking on the train. Smokers should realize that they are using a public facility and should think of others who dislike or cannot tolerate other peoples' cigarette smoke. If they wish to smoke please do so elsewhere NOT ON THE TRAINS!!
BMTJeff
It's a violation. Get the car number and report it NYCT Customer Assistance by calling 718-330-3322 during business hours. Also provide the route, direction, and the location and time you boarded and the location where you observed the problem. If you happen to get a look at the Train Operator, report his or her physical description as well, to make identification easier.
David
The phone number is now 718-243-3322. NYCT's not on the 330-exchange anymore. Sorry.
David
The problem of employee smoking is a serious one. The NYCT has a very aggressive policy regarding smoking in the workplace. It is prohibited in all common areas unless all users of that area agree to permit smoking (so it never is), it's prohibited on all transit vehicles and especially anywhere in view of the public. Virtually, the only place smoking is permitted on TA property is in a smoker's private office.
Having said that, I've seen train crews smoking outside crew rooms or in front of dispatcher's offices. I, a non-smoker, usually will report it to the manager in charge. Smoking on TA property is a violation that is punishable under transit rules, health code, and municipal law. If it is observed, get as much info as possible [car # route, approx. time, etc. and report it. I assure you, it will be dealt with.
It's a joy to be an ex-smoker (I quit March 2,2000).... before long, smoking will become a criminal act, mark my words.
AND BLUDDY WELL IT SHOULD BE!
wayne
[It's a joy to be an ex-smoker (I quit March 2,2000).... ]
It's not over yet, believe me, been there.
Arti
I suspect that smoking (and other tobacco products) will not be made illegal in our lifetimes. As abhorrent as the habit is, the product is legal, and the industry too big. At least the banning of smoking in public places has made the habit harder to use.
I'm a non-smoker, and believe it or not, there are only three smokers in the BSM Transportation Department, out of 58 trainmen. Our Chief Dispatcher is a smoker (that's one), and after 15 years of constant ragging is down from a pack a day to a pack every two weeks, so there has been an improvement.
>>>I suspect that smoking (and other tobacco products) will not be made illegal in our lifetimes.<<<
I always wonder who will pick up the lost tax revenue if smoking is outlawed?
Peace,
ANDEE
That's one of the interresting aspects of this subject. Farm land that is used to grow tobbacco is subsidized by our government. On the other hand, Tobbacco is so heavily taxed that it more than covers the cost of those subsidies. Now, we could eliminate the subsidies for growing tobbacco and shift production of that land to food staples. The problem is we, as a people will stand still for taxation of our vices but we'll never stand for taxation of food. And the trough-feeders in Washington will never give up a source of nourishment.
In other words you are saying that the burden would be shifted to everybody?
Peace,
ANDEE
As far as I'm concerned, smoking is legalized drug addiction since it is a big tax generator to the US government, which they don't want to give up, not to mention it is a big part of the economy of the tobacco producing states.
[I always wonder who will pick up the lost tax revenue if smoking is outlawed?]
I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies.
Of course, tobacco can't be outlawed, any more than alcohol or marijuana can.
[I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies. ]
I have heard that claimed a lot. So far failed to see any factual proof of course, looks like we have to take it for granted. I'd like to see any solid numbers to back this claim. (of course there are lot of similar legends taken as facts)
Arti
[I suspect the tax money spent by Medicare and Medicaid for care of patients with smoking-related diseases is greater than the excess of tobacco tax receipts over subsidies.]
I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. The money spent on health care is more than offset by the Social Security benefits that need not be paid out on account of smokers' premature deaths.
[I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. The money spent on health care is more than offset by the Social Security benefits that need not be paid out on account of smokers' premature deaths.]
Touche'
Seriously, though, it's very common for life savings of several hundred thousand dollars to be paid out in three years of nursing home care with a couple hospitalizations a year. When the money's gone, the patient goes on Medicaid (I'm talking about old people already on Medicare). Of course, Medicaid pays only a small fraction of what the individual paid.
Bob
[I've heard that smoking is a net financial *gain* to society. ]
Again, I've read/heard misc. health related things. Never seen any facts/statistics. Mostly some biased study done etc. Remember recently publiced health benefits of alcohol later being challenged and so on and on and on. I'm very sceptical.
Arti
Cigarettes shortened my mom's life and her last few years weren't good. On the other hand my grandfather and father-in-law made 80 with them; my grandma had 65 years worth of 2nd hand smoke and lived to be 88. Yes I admit there's absolutely nothing good about smoking and I've smoked a pipe for 40 years; but I wish they'd stop the witch hunt , give us fools our corner (like on Amtrak...I never disputed short haul lines like subways forbidding it), a a part of an airport etc.None of us had to live a life of crime, deprive their families etc over it:They claim there's a war against drugs and it gets worse and worse AND younger; the problems caused by dope are far more severe but it seems too many people want it, including officials.
[give us fools our corner (like on Amtrak...I never disputed short haul lines like subways forbidding it), a a part of an airport etc]
As far as I can recall you can smoke in the bars in most airports. Las Vegas has smoking rooms.
Arti
[As far as I can recall you can smoke in the bars in most airports. Las Vegas has smoking rooms.]
The St. Louis airport has smoking booths right in the passenger concourses, at least they did when I was there three years ago. Each booth was glass-walled and maybe 20 by 20 feet. All of the ones I saw were absolutely packed with smokers, looking like a Lexington IRT train at rush hour, and so smoke-filled that the air appeared blue (presumably they vented to the outside).
I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so desparate for a butt as to tolerate one of those booths.
[All of the ones I saw were absolutely packed with smokers, looking like a Lexington IRT train at rush hour, and so smoke-filled that the air appeared blue (presumably they vented to the outside). ]
Same in Las Vegas. There was no need to light up, just inhale.
[I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so desparate for a butt as to tolerate one of those booths. ]
I usually went to a bar or outside.
Arti
Guess it beat walking almost a mile thru the airport to get outdoors especially when it could be 20 below outside, eg Minneapolis. And then having to hustle back, then might find your plane delayed.
A little walk after sitting in the plane for hours doesn't sound that bad.
Arti
Get a life! I'm sick and tired of everyone running to the Superintendent crying about every little thing. It sounds like you're a supervisor trying to earn some extra points with the Superintendent.I guess it's not possible for people like you to look the other way.No wonder why I can't wait to get my accounting degree and get out of this Mickey Mouse organization! BTW, this post comes from a non smoker.
As an ex-smoker I agree with you. Even in the '50s when a majority of the adults smoked, smoking was illegal on subway trains, and although there may have been some violations, there were not many even then. An occasional T/O smoking is not soomething I would run to management with. If he/she had a bottle of Jack Daniels that would be different.
Once saw a T/0 on the E having a cigarette in his cab while waiting to depart from WTC.
Well it wasn't me or John from Glendale!
I remember last year while I was waiting for a NB 4 Train at 161 Street/Yankee Stadium a T/O was having a smoke whaile the train was coming into the station and stsyed on the same cigarette until just before Woodlawn when she threw it out of the Cab Window. It's amazing that the T/O was able to inhale, brake, and keep a hand on the Master Controller all at the same time.
>>>>It's amazing that the T/O was able to inhale, brake, and keep a hand on the Master Controller all at the same time<<<<<<
What's so amazing about that? Do T/Os have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time?
Yesterday, while having most of the afternoon to kill, I decided ride most of the the parts of Boston's T that I had missed during my visit a couple months ago (Now, the only missing gaps are the B Green Line beyond Washington, the D Green Line beyond Reservoir, and the Red Line beyond Davis). A few general observations:
1. Up until yesterday I had only ridden the Blue Line between the airport and Bowdoin (sp?), and since most of the stations on that stretch are older and rather decrepit, I had a rather unfavorable impression of the Blue Line. However, outbound from the airport, all the stations except for Orient Heights were very new and clean. Each had a unique modern design, and I found it to be a pleasant surprise. I understand that the Airport station will be rebuilt soon -- Hopefully it will be in a similar fashion.
However, the major highlight of the Blue Line was the Aquarium station. Anybody within a reasonable distance of Boston should check this place out: It is a very deep station, but once you get down to the platform level you realize that the entire inbound end of the station is open to the sky as part of a major reconstruction project in connection with the Big Dig. The concrete shell of the station and tunnels have been blasted away, leaving a tall shaft of dirt and concrete all the way up to the surface. You can even make out where the new expressway tunnel will pass over the subway tubes. I hope to get some photos of this soon.
2. Riding the Orange Line out to Oak Grove, one also encounters some good views of Big Dig-related construction in the area of the Community College station. A good portion of the expressway interchange, which the station sits in the middle of, is a huge jumble of temporary ramps and bridges while the new interchange is being built in the midst of it all. The sheer scale of the Big Dig project continues to stagger me.
3. Further out on the Orange Line, I've noticed that many of the stations have three tracks. Outbound trains open their doors on both sides at many of these stations. Any particular reason why the line was built this way? I also have concerns about the idea of having a single track with an active platform on either side: That means the third rail is directly below a platform edge, and anybody falling from a platform would hit the third rail. (Park Street on the Red Line is also set up in this fashion.) Has this ever been raised as an issue?
4. For the life of me I can't find the entrances to the State / Citizens Bank station downtown. I've walked the entire distance of State Street between Government Center and the Aquarium station, and the State station is nowhere to be found. But I've transferred between trains there and I've passed through it, so I know it's down there someplace.
5. I'm very impressed with the new Bombarier cars on the Red Line. Very sleek looking, a nice smooth ride, the motors have a cool sound, and they appear very solid. IMO, everything a modern subway car should be. I'd love to see the Hawker-Sidley cars on the Blue and Orange Lines replaced with something similar -- The rolling stock on both those lines looks due for a one-way trip to the scrap heap. (However, I was interested to read here that the Hawker-Sidleys were modeled after PATH trains. I've never ridden PATH, but I've seen the photos here and noted the similarities.)
6. After seeing a couple of the new Type-8's on the Green Line in various places, I finally caught one on the B branch. Interesting concept, although I much prefer to face forward while riding. The Type-8's only have two forward facing seats, neither with a decent view out the window. The new cars are a bit of a radical departure from the Boeing LRV's and Type-7's, and we seemed to turn a lot of heads as we went down Comm. Ave.
7. I'm very impressed with the newer stations on the entire system, especially the north end of the Red Line and the south end of the Orange Line. Each are unique and some are quite creative. It looks like the MBTA has been making a deliberate effort to make the stations a pleasure to use. Take heed, CTA.
And now for the million-dollar question: Which will be completed first, the Big Dig or David Cole's degree in architecture?
-- David
Boston, MA
David - I think the station you are looking for may the one sited underneath the old State House building, which is located generally at the corner of State and Cambridge Streets (it is a very complex intersection, so it is difficult to say with exactitude what the intersecting streets are.) The old State House building is a brick structure with a notable coat of arms that faces generally eastward looking down State Street towards the waterfront (the direction of the Old Custom House.)
No challenge there and you will not be 1.5 Billion over budget either I wot. Best of luck while you are at it.
That's easy, David. You'll have a PhD first.
Just one comment on your excellent notes: There is a plan afoot to replace all of the Blue Line cars with new models. Then take the existing Blue Line cars and move them to the Orange Line. Since Blue Line cars are shorter, eight 48.5 foot car consists are planned (current Orange Line trains are six 65 foot cars). For pictures/stats on these, see The NETransit Site.
When the Blue Line cars are moved to the Orange Line, will they be used for service expansion or are some of the existing Orange Line cars going to be retired? Because the NETransit site says that that the Orange cars were built between 1979-81 and the Blue cars were built between 1978-80 making them a little older than the Orange cars. Is this part of a plan to standardize some of the fleet (both lines' cars are the same width)? Are any extentions being planned for the Orange Line?
My understanding is that the Blue Line cars will be used to add additional service to the existing Orange Line, as there is room for more frequent service during rush hour.
I know of no plans to extend the Orange Line. For many years, there has been talk of extending the Blue Line north to Lynn, and the Green Line north of Lechmere to Medford. But there are no firm plans, nor any money allocated at this time.
David's post has motivated me to remind everyone of the "T" party in mid July (15th & 16th) that includes a trip to Seashore.
We now have three qualified tour guides for the "T" portion, David's the third.
The 3/4 ton crew is making it a three day weekend:
- Saturday at Seashore all day, stay after closing for a ride on the pair of INDs (R-4 & R-7A). Todd has obtained permission to bring out their Fishbowl (that's a B-U-S) and has planned a couple of surprises for us, i.e. maybe a trip to downtown Kennebunkport mid-day.
- Sunday we'll ride the "T" until they roll up the streets, which they still do about midnight.
- Monday the 3/4 ton crew will hit the road after our Continental Breakfest and plan to catch the ferry from New London to Orient Point (the non-railfan portion, but it should be FUN). Might stop at Riverhead where there's a steam museum that we've heard is almost ready to begin operations.
More details available in the Comming Events of this site. There's already a number of Subtalkers signed up, but still some room on the bus, however time is getting short to make hotel reservations. Public transportation will get you close to Kennebunkport, so if a group of you all arrive on the same train we should be able to pick you us. E-mail directly to work out the details.
Mr t__:^)
[And now for the million-dollar question: Which will be completed first, the Big Dig or David Cole's degree in architecture?]
Dunno about the Big Dig, but I can state with absolute confidence that you will have retired after a long, distinguished architectural career well before the Second Avenue subway is completed.
[4. For the life of me I can't find the entrances to the State / Citizens Bank station downtown. I've walked the entire distance of State Street between Government Center and the Aquarium station, and the State station is nowhere to be found. But I've transferred between trains there and I've passed through it, so I know it's down there someplace.]
David,
Find the entrance(s) in reverse. From the station platform, take the EXIT stair(s) and see where on the street you come out.
Enjoyed reading your observations.
I followed your suggestion. I took the exit stairs from the State/Citizen's Bank station, and emerged in the middle of a cornfield a few miles outside of Wichita, Kansas.
OK, I'm lying. I poked and prodded around the area a bit more yesterday, and finally found an unmarked entrance to the subway station through the old State House itself; the doors are at the street level on the eastern end of the building. It seemed an unlikely place to put an entrance to a subway station, but I assume there are other entrances to the station itself -- Possibly the lower level of the Citizens Bank building across the street (hence, the name for the station).
-- David
Boston, MA
[finally found an unmarked entrance to the subway station through the old State House itself]
That's the one, in the 60's you could use it.
Mr t__:^)
The entrance is still in service, it just isn't marked by any sort of signage that I saw. The only indicators that it was a subway entrance was the fact that the style of doors is identical to the doors in most of the other T stations.
-- David
Boston, MA
The Haymarket-North extension (opened in 1975) was 3 tracked because the original (1960s) plan for the Orange Line was to run express trains to Reading (and south to Needham). The third track north of Wellington was used as an interim commuter rail track for the Haverhill Line, now permanent. That's why there is an unused CR platform at Oak Grove. Also an underpass in Malden was only built with enough clearance for an RDC/F10, it had to be raised when the F40s were purchased.
The thinking back then was that commuter rail would not survive in Boston, except for some limited service maybe to places like Attleborough. If the Haverhill service did survive it would use the "Wildcat" branch and the Lowell Line to north station, much as 2 daily trains do now. The Red Line was also supposed to go to Arlington but never went past Alewife. Also note that the Quincy-Braintree service was essentially a replacement for the Old Colony/New Haven service, which was abandoned in 1959, but was reinstated in 1997 and is now quite popular.
I'm looking for some help finding subway station signs for sale, I'm looking for the black signs that contain the lines serving on them in the circle symbols if anyone can help me find such signs or where to purchase them that would be of great help.
There are small ones for sale at Transit Museum Gift Shops. I have Grand Central, and my brother has Shea Stadium. Others are Astor Place, Coney Island and Times Square (there are others, I can't remember them).
I purchsed Union Square from there
The ones I remember:
JaySt-Boro Hall
Wall St(4,5)
Chambers St(1,2,3)
Union Square
Times Square
Yankee Stadium(C,D,4)
Shea Stadium
125St(A,B,C,D)
Stillwell Av
34St-Penn Station
Astor Pl
47-50 Rockefeller Ctr
I have Union Square and Times Square. I am looking for 34St.
BM34x
You don't say whether you are looking for replicas or the genuine article.
As mentioned by other posters, the Transit Museum stores carry small replica signs. I don't have any of these signs, so I don't remember how much they were selling for in the stores. (Actually, when I learned that the stores didn't have signs for Jamaica, for Woodhaven Blvd., or for anything else in Queens besides Shea Stadium, I just went away dejected, and never checked the price.) I would guess that they are in the $10 neighborhood.
For actual signs, there is a place that I learned about from a post on this board around a month ago -- a store which priamarily sells used furniture, located on the north side of Houston St., a few blocks east of Broadway.
When I went there, I saw about a half-dozen actual signs -- most from recent years, and one or two from farther back. These signs are very heavy, and are also extremely expensive.
For instance, there was one sign there that looked to be from the 1990s. It was a long rectangular black sign which came from a station that serves lots of lines (I think it was Fulton/Bway-Nassau), so it was festooned with line markers. I believe the sign also had an "Exit" indication written on it, along with an arrow. I don't remember the exact price that the man there quoted me for this sign, but it was definitely in excess of $200.
Ferdinand Cesarano
OK..OK..you all chewed me out on the Museum being in the Bronx... I was just too excited when I posted the message. as you could tell from the misspellings.
So the abandon station thing is out huh? How come the homeless people in New York get to go to all the best places? Here are some questions..hope you can help me out-
1.- While doing some nite time barhopping last summer, I was on the West side of town near the Meat packing district and I saw what seams to be an old elevated tight of way that went in and out of buildings. Was this a form of a railroad spur?
2. What is a fun pass?
3. Besides the Museum in BROOKLYN,is there any other location, such as a library or visitors center that would have photos, displays or exhibits on the building of the NYC Subway system?
Thanks..
ROB
1. I'm not a New Yorker, don't know anything about number 1.
2. Fun Pass is a one day pass. It costs $4 and is good from the time it is used until 3AM the next morning.
3. The transit museum store in Grand Central has some stuff but for the real thing, the only place to go is Brooklyn. If you can, take a (2) or a <5> under the river for a last run on the redbirds before they go to the scrapyard.
In answer to question #1: this was the old NYC West Side freight line. It has been out of service for many years.
The other questions were answered by WMATAGMOAGH, I'll not repeat the answers here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Re: #2 , remember that the fun pass is NOT available in token booths. You must purchase the fun pass at a Metrocard Vending Machine or select retailers.
Peace,
ANDEE
Last year I was bicycling south from the George Washington Bridge and came upon a shopping mall built into what was obviously a former railroad passenger station. Since the terrain is far too hilly for a main line, I figure it must be a trolley line. A street leading south from the parking lot was narrower than most, but it seemed the proper width for a two-track trolley's separated right of way. Does anyone know about this presumed line?
Where was it? Most of Earth is south of the George Washington Bridge.
"Where was it? Most of Earth is south of the George Washington Bridge."
Uh, Fort Lee.
The person never even mentioned which side of the Hudson they were on!
Fort Lee, N.J. it's in the Title of the post
I'm stupid.
Prior to the opening of the George Washington Bridge, there was a ferry from (I believe) 125th St. in Manhattan across the Hudson River to New Jersey. There was a trolley line which came down the Palisades to meet the ferry (via a series of hairpin turns).
Was this building located at the former ferry terminal on the New Jersey side?
-- Ed Sachs
Ed Sachs asked, "Was this building located at the former ferry terminal on the New Jersey side?"
No, this apparent former passenger station is not on the water; it is on top of the Palisades, about half a mile south of the GW bridge, which in turn is about two miles north (rather, uptown) of 125th St. The apparent former right of way is a residential street in Ft Lee, maybe a quarter mile east of Route 9W. It runs straight south from the former station, or rather parallel to the Hudson, south by southwest and a point or a point and a half south, in nautical terms.
To me this suggests that it was not a terminus for the 125th St ferry, but for a line carrying passengers along the ridge to other towns, perhaps as far as Jersey City though later development kept me from tracing the line for more than about a mile south. I'll have to bicycle across the bridge again, some pleasant weekend this month, to get the exact street location. Maybe I can also find a sign that it heads down to the Hudson in a series of hairpin curves, which would refute my hypothesis and indicate it was a connection to the ferry.
Hey, I wonder if I can find a good contour map of Ft Lee and points south, on the Web. Now, if I could find an early Twentieth Century Northeast Joisey trolley map, it would be easy.
Half a mile south of the GWB sounds an awful lot like Palisades Park.
NAW, palisades amusement park was 1/4 south of the GW.
Peace,
ANDEE
I believe you may be referring to Palisade Junction, which was the junction between 2 PSCOT trolley lines - the Hudson River Line, which went from the ferry at Edgewater to Paterson, and the Coytesville line, which ended in Fort Lee just north of the GWB. I've traced out both in detail, there are tons of remains (like bridge pilings in the Neversink River and the remains of the Hudson River escarpment).
My memory and geographic knowledge of the area may be a bit rusty, but I suggest you consult either the Hudson River Line book or the Public Service Trolley Lines book. Arnold Joseph (212-532-0019) or Kevin Farrel (trainbooks.com) may be able to sell you either, or both.
The Neversink river is entirely in New York state!
That's a very interesting name for a river, I must say.
The original translation from the Indian language was Navesink
True. There's a Navesink River in Monmouth County, NJ.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CM> I believe you may be referring to Palisade Junction, which was the junction between 2 PSCOT trolley lines - the Hudson River Line, which went from the ferry at Edgewater to Paterson, and the Coytesville line, which ended in Fort Lee just north of the GWB.
Thank you kindly, Conrad. So my estimate that the station was so big that it had to be a terminal was only a little off. It's a junction. I've bicycled from Fort Lee to Paterson to see the Great Falls, but the road goes straight down the west face of the Palisade through Bogota to the Hackensack River. Although the head that road on Route 9W is only a couple blocks from the former station, now a small shopping mall, I imagine that's a mite too steep for a trolley line, which must have gone elsewhere. Perhaps there's a remnant of the Coytesville line's terminal to be found north of the GWB.
CM> My memory and geographic knowledge of the area may be a bit rusty, but I suggest you consult either the Hudson River Line book or the Public Service Trolley Lines book.
Thanks again; I'm sure the way to get real knowledge is to find the right old books. Presumably the fact that I've heard of neither of those books indicates my ignorance rather than their rarity. On the other hand, my favorite rail history tool is the bicycle. What it lacks in scholarly effectiveness it makes up by combining two of my pleasures. Add the pleasure of correspondence with nice people who know their stuff, and I've got a perfect day of knowledge-seeking.
Glad you found the info useful. BTW, if you're ever near Garden State Plaza, the driveway is built on the ROW of the Hudson River Trolley line. Opposite the mall is a perfectly preserved section of the ROW, complete with rails used as bollards to discourage trespassers. It goes right past Carretta Trucking's yard.
My old Bergen-Rockland atlas is full of pencil marks from my own archaeological escapades. I stopped when I ran out of old carbarns to find.
Email me privately and I can give you better info on the Hudson River Line book (I have it at home), ISBN # etc. If you are interested.
[So the abandon station thing is out huh?]
Well, not completely ...
If you take the 7th Ave, just before 96th is an abandoned station. For others that you may be able to get a quick look at while riding by see the FAQ section of this site.
Another is at Essex & Delancey Street ... it's a big trolly terminal. Some of which you can see from the platform. I was on a Museum tour that got us in there ... O/H wire, trackways, etc. still there.
Another is Broadway - East NY lots of trackways that terminate, a yard and three lines to choose from to get you there. Go south on the L for some more trackways & abandoned platforms at next station, BUT watch out for the Hippos ;-)
Mr t
There are no hippos on the Eastern Division :)
--Mark
Or water buffaloes, for that matter. Now, THAT'S a good nickname for a 75-footer.:-)
[Or water buffaloes, for that matter. Now, THAT'S a good nickname for a 75-footer.:-)]
Sorry no "Rim Shot" for that one ....
A water buffalo has horns, not anything like the horns on a hippo. A water buffalo can get up to a good charge when it wants to versus a Hippo never wants to. I call the R-46 a Rino or a Hippo Wana Be, it isn't cared for a well as a hippo so it has to try harder and seems to move a little faster, but it's still big and scary. I don't like being swallowed be either.
Mr t__:^)
In all fairness, I wasn't looking for a rim shot, so that's OK. You can substitute any large animal you want. I was thinking more in terms of the size and length of those cars rather than speed or lack thereof.
I really don't have anything bad to say about the R-46s except for the occasional out-of-tune door chime. As for the R-68s, the horse is already dead, and I'm not going to beat it anymore.
91st Street on the 7th Avenue line is usually lit - not sure why, but it has been every time I've been past it in the last year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's the one I was talking about ... most of the station is still intact.
Mr t__:^)
You might consider calling the Transit Museum and asking if you can have a peek at their archives. All the pix you ever wanted and then some. I do not know what there policy is towards this or the hours, but it's worth a call.
Try the education department at 718-243-8601.
--Mark
The Green Line between Anacostia and Branch Avenue will open on March 17, 2001, completing the original 103 mile system. It may open on January 13, 2001 if it is ready before that date.
A virtual tour is on Metro's web site (if you can find it, it is a .pdf document). Wayne, I suggest you check it out and use it to update the Line by Line page, it has some pretty good info.
BTW, if any Subtalkers plan on going to the opening, post on the board. I plan on attending, maybe we will meet up.
I've checked the diagrams out- the only one where I'm going to have to make changes is at Branch avenue. I like that hairpin curve going into the yard! Didn't know that was there. They're in error - Branch Avenue isn't really "at grade", it's in a shallow cut. I've seen a sneak peek at it. Underground station Congress Heights is the same as Georgia Avenue-Petworth.
I guess I'll have to keep listening to find out whether they're going to beat the 3/17/2001 date. It would be nice to get it open even sooner, if possible.
I wonder how they're making out with the environmental impact study on the extension to Summerfield/Largo Town Centre.
I have to update some of the station names somewhere down the road; the one they stuck poor "U" Street with is ridiculous - U Street-African American War Memorial-Cardozo - do they have enough room on the pylon for it?
wayne
I told you. That station is structurally unsound and they need a way to raise the columns to the ceiling to provide support!
LOLROTFLMHO!
BTW it's a WAFFLE design.
w.a.y.n.e.
They can do what they did at Woodley Park. Turn your head 90 degrees to the left to see what it will probably look like.
__________________________
U Street/African American |
Civil War Memorial-Cardozo|
.... CIVIL War Memorial?!!! OK what ELSE can we add to it? What's the name of that theatre that's up that way (it has an unusual name) - what other points of interest are up there? There's that wonderful Diner up on Florida Avenue NW as well, I hope it is still there; they had the best soul food I have had in DC - rivalled only by Sylvia's here in Harlem, NY (126th St. & Malcolm X Bvld).
wayne
They've got some tricky names there: the Lincoln Theatre and the Florida Avenue Grill :-)
I think they are going to rename "Foggy Bottom/GWU" to be:
"Foggy Bottom/GWU/Almost Georgetown/Kennedy Center/Washington Circle/State Department/Tower Records/Not Quite Lincoln-Vietnam-Korea Memorials/Einstein Statue/E St. Expressway/No Relation to Bruce Springsteen"
LOL!
Now if only they can do something about the dismal lighting conditions at Foggy Bottom.....it's literally living up to its name there. Dim, dimmer, dimmest. They need to white-wash the vaults.
wayne
Wooly Mammoth Theatre? Is that what you are thinking?
YES, that is its name. It was on the tip of my tongue.
I think the diner's simply called the "Florida Avenue Diner".
BTW - do you happen to know when Metrobus eliminated the "C" and "D" Street NE route by truncating the #42 to Gallery Place/Chinatown?
wayne
> BTW, if any Subtalkers plan on going to the opening, post on the board. I plan on attending, maybe we will meet up.
Count me in. :)
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon, Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez 201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her Dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the Powerhouse exhibit.
It is not a secret that I have gone by many names, but now it's your turn to choose which one it is you liked better.
Official voting will take place by responding in the messages. For secret ballot, complete the form below:
Every person entering the survey enters for a chance to win a $4 Metrocard Fun Pass (I'm not joking!) and operator status in the SubTalk Live chatroom. In the event of multiple votes, the latter will take precedence. If one is discovered using multiple e-mails to vote, that person will be disqualified and votes reduced to one.
An alternative prize will be available for out of towners for whom the Fun Pass means nothing.
Persons voting by public ballot who do not use their e-mail in their messages will be required to submit a separate secret ballot.
Only handles which have been used to post within the last 7000 messages will be accepted for secret ballot, others must vote publicly.
Fun Pass winning subject to the successful completion of transit quiz
Self-plug
I'm not talking about Your handles, I'm talking about my handles.
Hey Pigs, what about A Post-It-Note? I do believe this was another of your personalities....
-Stef
It was never intended as a permanent one, and so therefore is excluded.
How about a complete list of the handles that may be included in the voting?
The list is right there!
Yeah, WHERE?
wayne (Lactobacillus GG) (R-6-2 variety)
If you use IE, it's in the initial message.
If you use Netscape, I posted a response about Netscape's inability to handle the iframe tag, so it doesn't appear. There's a direct link.
I have problems e-mailing out of Netscape, so I e-mailed the vote out of CompuServe directly.
wayne
Sounds like a GG with lactose intolerance.:-)
No it's an R-6-2 with several cups of yogurt and a package of Liederkranz left under one of the wicker seats. On a hot summer's day , of course.
wayne
Don't tell me 1277 figures in this story. Hope that yogurt isn't/wasn't spoiled. OTOH, you didn't say anything about a sick passenger.:-)
If you do not see the form in the above message Click Here to see it.
.....I vote for the handle larry redbird..!!
hey, i use to be TMC/MCI, but i like kame better
Steve: Monday night I posted a response to your query about D-Types in service in 1965 but it seems to have dropped off the board. Here's the response.I'm still curious as to how many Triplex units were out and about during their final week of service in July of 1965. We were in the city on the 21st and 22nd and rode on the BMT both days, but I didn't see them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In April 1965 there were as many as nine trains still in service on the West End Express which a few appearances on the West End Local and the Sea Beach Express. When they were removed from service on July 23 the following units were still in service 6019,6022,6030,6038,6043,6048,6080,6089,6093,6095,6101,6103,6104,6106 and 6112.
Larry,RedbirdR33
6019, 6095, 6112.... STILL GOING! Can NOTHING defeat these behemoths?
"Yes", says Father Time. "Rust..."
wayne
6095 doesn't appear to have suffered much from the ravages of rust. It helps to be stored indoors.
Gentle behemoths might be a better way to describe the Triplexes. They didn't pick fights the way the BMT standards did, except for those two which tussled at Stillwell Ave. in 1955.:-)
Larry, as always, thanks a bunch. Fred will be interested to know those last Triplexes made a few cameo appearances on his Sea Beach before departing for good.
Steve: I think I must have used disappearing ink on these two messages. Here's the response to your question about 11 car trains on the Flushing:Steve: The Bluebirds were placed in service on the Flushing Line starting September 26,1963 and R-12,14 and 15 began being transfered back to the mainline. R-17s 6500-6549 which had been transfered to Flushing in November 1962 began returning a little bit later, November 4,1963. The last R-12,14 and 15 left Flushing on April 17,1964 while the first Redbirds arrived on March 15,1964 and stayed until after July 23,1964. The last R-17s left for the mainland in January of 1965. Apparently the TA did not wish to mix the older R's with the Bluebirds whereas a cleaned up maroon R-17 could mix with the Redbirds although I did see maroon R-17s as the 11th car on Bluebird trains at times.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
By Redbirds, you're not referring to mainline R units, are you? I'm afraid I'm a bit confused.
I find it a bit ironic that the TA didn't want to mix older equipment (R-12s, R-14s) with the R-36s when all those car classes were capable of doing so, especially since the R-12s and R-14s never again ran in solid trains except for the ones on the 3rd Ave. el.
Steve: I was referring to the R-33 Redbirds 8806-9305. Some where transferred to the Flushing to protect the service until enough R-33 Bluebirds 9306-9345 and R-36 Bluebirds 9346-9523 and 9558-9769 were on hand. I believe that the reason this was done was to have what was then the newest and brightest cars running on the Flushing Line. The R-12,14 and 15's were all showing there age by this time and the R-12 and R-14's had a different roof configuration.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
OK, thanks. Oh and speaking of the Triplexes, you don't suppose the three surviving units could have run in the same train during those last days, do you?
Steve: I don't see why not though I couldn't say for certain. The D's usually ran with four units giving the appearance of a twelve car train. When the D's made an encore appearance on the Culver Shuttle in 1974 they ran 6019 and 6095. If they had tried to run all three on the Culver Shuttle we could have walked from 9 Avenue to Ditmas through the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wonder if they trotted out all three units for Class of '44. Two are visible; one of them is 6095. I still chuckle about the fact that they ran the train empty during filming, although you can see passengers scurrying down the platform to catch it as it slowed to a stop. Unfortunately, the camera was too far away to capture the bull and pinion gear sounds.
BTW, your original responses did post.
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I will go back to Taipei to visit my parents June 21. I will stay there for three weeks.
I plan to visit Taipei's Rapid Transit System and write an introduction article about Taipei Subway. I am trying to apply for a permit so that I can take some pictures inside the system.
For those railfans like Salaam, they will be somewhat disappointed that there is no railfan window in the high-capacity lines, but there are railfan windows in the medium-capacity line, aka the Mucha line.
Chaohwa
It seems that Taipeinese have to much request on its system(Especailly on high-capacity lines. You can read it on this discussion board www.trtc.com.tw/disc8801 (Tranditional Chinese (BIG5 Code) available only as no one write englih there)). They think backward as they use the concept on subways by buses (Just read their suggestion on routing. Also they don't know that the one who manages (Department Of Rapid Transit System TCG (DORTS)) is not the one who operates (Taipei Rapid Transit Corporation) so it takes time to reply such suggestions.).
Mucha Line is a good example in Taipei Rapid Transit Sytem but it has lots of accident when it starts its operation. It is an automatic operating system (VAL from France but crtizers said it is elevated and its unreliable on its operation. People in Neihu said they wanted to have high-capacity line but the DORTS say no because of the routing problem (DORTS don't know where to start). At last DORTS decided to
use VAL to extent on its planned routing but go underground only.
Tamshui Line has beautiful view on ground and elevated section and it
becomes a scenic point in Taipei.
[It seems that Taipeinese have to much request on its system (Especailly on high-capacity lines. You can read it on this discussion
board http://www.trtc.com.tw/disc8801 (Tranditional Chinese (BIG5 Code) available only as no one write english there)).] The amendments are printed in bold. I'm really sorry about it(I forget to check).
I did look at the TRTC BBS board. Unfortunately most of the posts are not either good or informative. So I often ignore it.
Chaohwa
Even they write something about their work on the BBS. What is the use of writing there?
Neihu citizen dislikes VAL system, but the DORTS still impose and build it.
Good luck on your journey.
Singapore was similar (no railfan window) but, wearing a NYCTA tee-shirt displayed prominently got me some insider's views (cab ride, tower visit). You might try that approach, too, and see where it gets you.
--Mark
Thanks a lot, Mark.
I have several friends who knows Taipei's MRT system very well. We will have several field trips to tour the whole system.
Chaohwa
.......Take all the shots you can brother .....!!......happy shooting process your negatives there and HAPPY SHOOTING !!
thank you ( salaamallah ) ......
Several events that occurred today have led me to believe that the R-142s are running on the 5 shuttle. As impossible as it seems, it appears to be the only logical explanation.
1. The Bombardier set was split into two sets, 6301-6305 is sitting outside at E.180st yard.
2. The digital signs of the aforementioned set said:
S Shuttle
S Eastchester-Dyre
3. One of the R-62a sets on the 5 went to 238st, and probably won't leave until tomorrow morning. The R-62a is needed for OPTO operation on the shuttle.
I also saw 6301-6305 outdoors at 180th Street yard. But I doubt it was being used for the Dyre Shuttle. They were probably testing the signs. They do occasionally run the R62A #5 trains to 238th St. I once rode an R62A set up White Plains Road last summer and have seen them deadhead, probably back to 180th St to prepare for Shuttle service.
Nope, They are still being tested.
06/08/2000
That doesn't make sense to me, when the 30 day test period starts soon, the TA wants mileage on those cars for testing. Testing on the OPTO shuttle isn't really logging miles on them.
Bill "Newkirk"
Interesting article in todays News,
TA GETS SERIOUS
Peace,
ANDEE
SIDEBAR--TA Gets serious
Peace,
ANDEE
None of the proposed solutions would work.
Platform barriers won't work because different trains have the doors in different places, and squeezing through a second door would increase dwell time and cut capacity.
A light beam that cuts off power to the tracks when people go beyond the stripe would result in constrant shutdowns, due to vandalism or just mistakes.
Cameras and fines won't work unless there is a cop on every platform to enforce them.
My solution:
1) Go to OPTO systemwide. The conductor is supposedly there for safety, but what good do they do between stations?
2) Close the token booths, leaving riders to purchase tokens by machine or in stores.
3) Redeploy TA workers to the platforms, full time in busy stations and during rush hours, moving around the stations and then positioned on the platforms when a train pulls in during off-peak.
What good would cameras do anyway. Once somebody is pushed in front of a train, it doesn't matter that the camera was there. I think most people who have pushed somebody in front of a train, have been stopped right after by a good citizen. It's not like the camera is going to prevent somebody from pushing you into the tracks. What, is the penson who's watching the tape going to come on the PA and be like Excuse me, LAdy in the red dress, please step away from the platform because there is some weird looking guy standing right behind you? Nothing will work. Just keep the subway like it is. All the rider has to do is be aware of what's around him, and step back when the train comes.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
From the News story: "cops reported seven suicides, four attempted suicides and 14 accidents in which straphangers fell to the tracks. Eight of those were fatal."
I can understand how people on the platforms of stations can fall onto the tracks, but how can 14 staphangers fall out of the trains they were on?
Hi,
Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ?
What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the basement of former Belmont Hotel ?
Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ?
>>>Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ? <<<
Belmont's private subway car is in the colletion of the Branford Trolley museum in Connecticut
Branford Trolley Museum
>>>What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the basement of former Belmont Hotel ?<<<
Don't know
>>>Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ?<<<
The right of way is still there, no tracks or switches however.
Peace,
ANDEE
the door to the knickerbocker hotel is still on the shuttle platform at times sq.
Yup Shoreline Trolley Musuem has the car. You can see an interior shot in this months MTA Transit Transit TV Show, they hauled it out of the Barn with the R17 that they also have in the collection.
I know of no plans for the car but I'm just a nobody at the musuem and busy on 6688 trying to get it done by October.
{...busy on 6688 trying to get it done by October.]
Lou, are you kidding?
Your nickname should be "Capt. Handletime". :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Sure. The guy's who's been busting his back with this car deserves the most. I think you're talking to him:)
-Stef
I heard about your exploits, my good man.
You should be commended.
(Applause here please)
Doug aka BMTman
I second that sentiment. I watched him spend a day on the roof of the car, priming it, while I was scraping paint from the doorframe. And after he was done, he primed the section I spent the day stripping, even thought he'd probably rather have been taking a break.
Let's get him a gift or something.
Thanks for the sentiments, guys. I won't rest until 6688 wears a shiny new coat of red. The people know I'm dedicated to preserving a piece of history. The day I do finish with her, I'll be celebrating with Lou S., put on a tux, charge up the car, and we'll have a ribbon cutting ceremony during Autumn in NY. We'll send our precious SMEE car through the ribbon. Now the passengers who enter the car for the trip to Short Beach will find the car visually appealing.
But until then, there's much more to be done. I will be completing the last ounce of roof priming work shortly.
-Stef
You go Steff!!!
I'll be there on the 23rd and might have the wife along to help...
She wants to know why I spend so much time up there....
I'll get her to paint, don't want her touching the blow torch hehe.
>Will Belmont's private subway car Mineola be restored for the centennial
of the IRT in 2004 ? Where is it now ? <
It is in the collection of the Shoreline Trolley Museum in Ct (Brandford Electric Railway ASSN)
There are no plans to do a restoration unless someone can come up with some very big $$. I asked that same question of a BERA executive last year and he estimates it would take about an amount in the low 6 figures to do a complete restoration. I did not have a chance to see it the last time I was there so I could not comment on the amount but I would not be suprised if the amount was accruarate.
>What happened with private door leading into IRT tunnel from the
basement of former Belmont Hotel ? <
The door may still be there in the tunnel. See page 38 of Stan Fischlers's book - The Subway.
>Also is connecting switch between LIRR & Flatbush-Atlantic Avenue still in place ? <
The right of way still exists for about 15 feet but the connection itself has been long gone.
Never say never. If someone's willing to spend $, then it can happen. For every corporate big wig who donates cash to the restoration, he (or perhaps she) should be priviledged enough to ride in style. It's just a fanatsy, but heck, the Museum has to find some way to get somebody interested in restoring the Minnie. I'll give the shirt off my back to ride around City Hall Loop with her!
-Stef
You'd think either NY state or the MTA would be interested in it. I mean, the 100th aniverersy of the NY subway can't possibly be a quiet event...
A few years ago, a protocol was made on how to restore the car, with cost estimates. The trucks that could be used for the car are under another piece of equipment on the property. It would take a skilled craftsman who is well versed in restoration and fine woodworking to do the job. I believe that you will begin to see some sort of effort made as the 100th anniversary gets closer, and interest grows.
06/08/2000
Lou Shavell,'
Is there any running gear underneath "Minnie". Wasn't the car on the ground in a farm when found years ago? Also if restored, could "Minnie" run on her own power?
Bill "Newkirk"
Before getting to much into operational things, please remember that restorations don't happen overnight. Even if someone comes up with the big bucks, the Mineola is a one of a kind, and contains much original material, of which each item has to be evaluated and a course of action determined. Seashore's 'City of Manchester' looks nice, but a lot of original material was lost in the process, and there is little documentation and few preserved artifacts. The 'industry' has come a long way since then, and having recently seen the car, I understand the enormity of a conservation/restoration project. Its a great idea, but don't encourage Shore Line or the TA or some outside party to do an injustice to this magnificent, though decayed, relic. Relax and do it right, and if it takes 20 years - so be it!
Gerry
The good news is that Shoreline, like most museums I presume, spends a lot of effort to at least stablize it's fleet, i.e. prevent further rot/rust/etc. of the cars in it's collection so that SOMEDAY they can be restored. The past few months they have been doing this to Montreal Tramways rotory snow plow. It's the only surviving electric rotory plow and is now a bare skeleton (rotted exterior was removed), but she moves under her own power (with some sparks flying) and the rotor operates too.
There are a number of us there who would like to see restoration begin on the Mineola, but like Jeff H., Lou S., and Gerry have said she needs some specialized craftsman, that's a little beyond the sanding & painting that the 3/4 ton crew is capable of doing.
Mr t__:^)
This morning around 10 there were serious 1/2 hour to 1 hour delays on the downtown 4,5,6. A women gave birth at 14th Street and because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came. All trains were rerouted to the local track from 42nd to Brooklyn Bridge. Because of the wait and heat a guy in my R33 car (9300) fainted. He didn't cause a delay though- we got him out at 42nd.
-Harry
How many of us wish we could rightfully claim to have been born on a subway train? :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
"How many of us wish we could rightfully claim to have been born on a subway train? :-)"
How many of us would **admit** to having been conceived on a subway train? :^)
I'd guess there are more people doing that than we think. I remember working a Rockaway Park run in the eighties as a conductor and walking through the train on the flats to look for a newspaper and found an orgy party in the last car full of Beach Channel kids. At least three couples going at it. Sad thing was none of them had newspapers. Today, there are homeless people doing it in stations, cars and even in tunnels. I heard of a story three years back where a T/O threw his train into emergency for persons on the tracks, and went down to find the two on the platform zipping up their pants.
If you are referring to the J train incident, it was very much a true story but more like 7 years ago. Two homeless folks (they were male & female. No particullar relevance to this story) had pulled a mattress into what they thought was an abandoned section of a tunnel somewhere around Broad Street on the J. Perhaps intending to join the 40' deep club, they decided to engage in consentual sex between the code 100 rails that they apparently felt were unused. Of course, as luck would have it, the tunnel was not abandoned and the rails were not unused. Worse yet, in the throws of passion, what they must have thought of as 'the earth moving' was actually the tunnel vibrating due to a fast-approaching J train at about 2 PM. The T/O threw the train into emergency but sadly too late. The woman (on top during this particular encounter) was struck in the head by the coupler. The gentleman half of the duo forgot to move his foot from the rail and only remembered after he was several toes poorer than before. Both survived and now have their own spot in Webster's 'Unabridged' under unsafe sex.
Sounds like coming AND going at the same time!
:-)
Oh, great - now it's "Subway Schtoink" stories.:-)
You'd be amazed at the stuff that goes on durring the after hours. I've heard a few good stories about this. most don't bear being mentioned :)
How many rows were on the electric portion of the coupler
that struck the female?
Oh boy.... Talk about bringing a whole new meaning to unsafe sex. What in the heck were those people thinking about? In the case of the man, woman, and the R-42, apparently the R-42 penetrated the best and left an everlasting impact.
How does a conductor explain to passengers that there's a delay because of people on the tracks? "Attention passengers. There's a delay on this train due to people fornicating on the tracks, please be patient."
By the way, Train Dude, I was just wondering why the TA opted not to use the R110A coupler on the R142s. The coupler shaped like someone's genitals, always made those cars look like they were in a good mood. I guess you don't have to give them VIAGRA:)
-Stef
P.S. I'm half asleep which would expain my lunacy.
[P.S. I'm half asleep which would expain my lunacy.]
Stef, being half asleep is no excuse. Lunacy will NOT be tolerated here at SubTalk. Punishment will be swift and painfull!
:-)
I suppose that there are a number of sexual and racially stereotyping jokes that could answer your question. However, the question is a valid one even if we treat it seriously. My understanding is that the old reliable H2C coupler was no longer produced. Hence, the R-142 and R-143 were going to have a newer coupler. The Wabco Pin & Funnel type coupler on the R-110A has been used quite successfully on the LIRR since the M-1s. The OB type currently used on the R-44/R-46 was likely opted for based on cost and ease of maintenance. Despite the fact that the Hook Pin Bushing is subject to frequent replacement. The coupler has relatively few internal moving parts and, therefore, is more reliable. The LIRR type is apparently more maintenance intensive with little of no gain in reliability.
Seriously, Thank You for answering my question. In terms of mainetneance, the OB is a better coupler than the type which the LIRR uses. Too bad they stopped producing the H2 Head. As you stated, it was reliable.
-Stef
The pin type coupler was used on NJT Arrows and is still used today with some drawbacks, one including that they break easily when added on curves and especially with compromise couplers. I remember there was one curved section of track at the Meadows Maintainance complex in the 11KV yard with a mound of ten or so broken off pins, which also includes main shopping the car and dropping the drawhead. A lot of work just to try and add a train.
Use of the subway for romantic purposes is really just an urban version of a commonplace suburban activity. Almost since motor vehicles were invented, people have been using the back seats for more than just passenger carrying, if you catch my drift. There probably are tens of thousands of people alive today who were conceived in motor vehicles.* What you have described is merely the mass-transit version of that activity.
* = admittedly, motor vehicles are more frequently associated with the opposite end of the life span.
This actually brings up an interesting question - when was the first recorded birth on the subway, and when was the first recorded conception on the subway? And while we're at it (heh), how come we don't hear many stories of babies born on NJT or MN or the LIRR?
NJT I think once put in an FYI that a baby had been born on board one of the trains once. I believe they gave the kid a lifetime unlimited pass for bus, rail, light rail he can claim when he is 18.
"Use of the subway for romantic purposes is really just an urban version of a commonplace suburban activity."
Considering that big cities have always been a magnet for young single people out on their own for the first time, I would hazard a guess that couples coupled on the els (or "L"s in Chicago) long before the Model T became a mobile motel.
[This morning around 10 there were serious 1/2 hour to 1 hour delays on the downtown 4,5,6. A women gave birth at 14th Street and because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came.]
Good God, of all crazy things to cause a delay ...
There was some test plan to put nurses at major stations so they could check out the "sick pax" call and remove the passanger if it was safe to do that. I wonder what ever happened to that.
I saw one at Bowling Green once...
-Harry
Wonder if anyone offered to boil water.:-)
"because of the MTA's "no touch-no lawsuit" policy she had to sat in the train until the EMT's came."
Put yourself in a similar position. you're incapacitated due to injury or illness on a crowded train. Do you surrender your health and safety to a possibly ill-trained transit worker for the sake of not delaying others on the train. OR do you want to be made comfortable and wait for trained EMS workers?
This morning there was a delay on the Oyster Bay line to NYC. One of the conductors said that when it rains real hard like it did last night, the diesel-electric engines have a rough time starting and getting up to speed. Is this a known problem with these new engines?.......
First I've heard of it, I hope my friend can tell me.
No sanders huh?
Was at the World Trade Center today. All the airline ticket counters moved to #5 WTC. But where's Amtrak? Nowhere that I saw. Closed that location did they? No way to win friends.
Joe C.
Amtrak is still telling people to see their local Travel Agent, the Big 7 Airlines(UA-AA-DL-CO-NW-US-TW) would like to get rid of travel agents all together, that is why they cut commissions 60 pct in the last 5 years. Try to get the lowest fare from a Airline on another carrier when you want to fly. Not directly with the airlines
Does anybody know the types of defect detectors commonly used on transit systems. I PAtCO I have seem several dragging equipment detectors and at the next there are little boxes with a DED sign that lights up when the detector is tripped. Do they have these on the NYCS? Does anyone know of Hotbox or wheel defect detectors installed anywhere? Are there any transit systems where the train operator must acknowledge a detector with a radio reply?
It's a transit system, not a class I !!!
No DEDs, no hotbox detectors, no slide fences, no grade crossings,
no medium approach medium, no FRA, no prior railway experience
needed to operate trains.
Well there are "wheel detectors" (like someone is gonna lose a wheel??) but they are used for checking the speed of the human person in control of the train....
As I just pointed out PATCO has dragging equipment detectors and I asked if any other transit system has any other type of defect detector. So at least some transit systems have defect detectors.
You asked specifically if they have DEDs on the NYCTS.
They don't. In fact, signals on our fair system are
quaintly archaic.
I may be wrong, but I'd classify PATCO as a regional/commuter
railroad, and I think it is under FRA jurisdiction. The New York
subway system is not under FRA and as such a lot of railroad
regs do not apply.
I am fiarly sure that PATCO is not an FRA railraod like PATH is. PATCo has more in common with The DC metro than it does with PATH. I am surprised with the number of dragging equipment detectors though. There are 2 in the philly tunnles and at least 3 between camden and haddonfield.
What about PATH?
We've all seen those little rails that are sometimes installed inside of the running rails. I was wondering how they are suposted to work and what safety function do they provide.
I think that they are to prevent the wheel flange from drifting too far in from the running rail, and thus help the wheels from derailing on a curve!
They reduce the likelyhood of a derailment on a sharp curve. As the truck of the trolley or subway car moves around a curve, there is force on the flange of the front outside wheel. The flange can tend to climb the rail. With a capture rail on the inside rail of the curve, the back of the inside wheel rubs against the capture rail preventing a derailment. Sometimes there will even be a capture rail on the outside rail of a curve. This is because the 2nd axle of the truck exerts a force opposite that of the front axle.
There are two things you could be looking at. Guard rails, which
would be installed inside the low (inner) running rail on a curve,
and what is variously known as safety rails or protect rails.
Guard rails steer the wheelsets around the curve.
Protect rails are found mostly on elevated structure and bridges
and prevent, in case of high-speed derailment, the cars from
sliding completely over the edge. They are also, as Evan mentioned,
sometimes used with heavy curves in tunnels.
A few years ago, there was a derailment on Amtrack in the marshes of northern New Jersey as a train was going across an improperly closed lift bridqe. It was later determined by the accident investigators that the train had derailed as it was entering the bridge, but stayed on the structure as it traveled until the other side because of the so-called "black rails" (i.e. the safety rails). Once on the other side, it tumbled an embankment and into the swamps. No lives were lost in a fall into the river below the bridge, however, since the black rails had functioned as designed.
subfan
They are also at station approaches to lessen the chances of a derailed train hitting the end of the platform.
Years ago my next-door neighbor worked at Tyco (HO toy trains). The first time she rode PATCO she thought the safety rails were "rerailers" and assumed derailments were common.
Bob
I hope you guys out there are aware that Los Angeles has its first chance to win the major sports title in 12 years, and the betting out here is that we're going to do it. The LA Lakers, who made a dramatic, come from behind move to win the decisive 7th game of the
Western Conference finals, open up tonight against the Indiana Pacers of Larry Bird. Go Lakers all the way. HOWEVER, there is no rapid transit to the Staples Center. The subway Red Line goes no where near it, and the Blue Line is a good move away. That's ridiculous and is one reason why New Yorkers should not raise a peep about transportation to sporting events. Want to go to Yankee Stadium? Three subway lines get you there; want to go to Shea and watch my Mets play? Ok, take the #7 train. They get you right to the stadium. All you have to do is cross the street. Boy I wish we had such transportation to get us to the Staples Center, Dodger Stadium, and Edison Field.
I thought Staples was next to the Convention Center, 1 -2 blocks from the Blue Line, and you have Metrolink to Anaheim
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I haven't been into the Lakers since the days of Kareem Abdul Jabbar -- IMHO -- one of the last true, humble, down-to-earth basketball players in the NBA. To him playing the game was more than just about making big money.
BTW, the Knicks will kick Laker butt BIG TIME next year!
Doug aka BMTman
Ha Ha! Come on Doug, what have you been smoking? The Knicks are over the hill. Ewing can hardly move and with only two guys who can shoot, well, you're in for a lot of trouble. But three things can help. One, the Eastern Conference sucks, secondly, the fans really get behind the team and the support is there, and thirdly, your colors are Blue and Orange, my favorite colors. I would love to see another Knicks-Lakers Finals. Maybe it will come to pass, and it will be shown that you were not smoking something.
I'd rather have Minneapolis win the championship, since Fort Wayne beat New York and I'd rather they not win another series.
Back to 2000, the Meadowlands has no rapid transit whatsoever. Don't tell me there are busses, that's not real rapid transit, it's transit for the carless. It's also impossible to walk to the Meadowlands from anywhere else, and probably impossible to get between the Raceway, Giants Stadium and Continental Arena.
Every team playing here (except for the horses and the Giants) want to move to Newark (or the west side in the Jets case).
Pigs: New York teams playing in New Jersey. What a disgrace. Where is the pride? New York teams should play in New York.
The Nets and Devils are New Jersey Teams
The Metrostars (Soccer) are both New York and New Jersey.
Who are LA Lakers? What is basketball? Sports on this BB are way off topic! Even race relations are more on topic than sports. Let's please stop talking about sports here, already half the papers are filled with yesterdays scores, etc.
Arti
Amen! And (not noting anyone in particular here) if you want to carry on a conversation, do it by e-mail! This is not an e-mail board; there's no reason for us to know your personal business.
David
....What you are not hearing about is how the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL ....& the ""pico station""....
Is another rail transit falure here in lost angeles.....The ""pico station ""is almsot unacesable to the STAPELS welfare stadium.!!
you have to cross several parking lots and TWO SETS OF TRACK and then walk almost backwards to finally ENTER.
the ""pico station"".from the south then walk another block NORTH .....totally out of the G. D. way damnn....!!!!!.....
Note;.....no direct access to the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE STATION .........aint that a bitch.......................!!!!!!!!!
What I ment to say is that urban politics is more rail related than sports scores.
Arti
Agreed, but not by much. We often stray far afield from the subject we're supposed to be discussing, which is rail passenger transportation with an emphasis on the New York City metropolitan area. I meant no disrespect toward Arti with my previous post. I was only attempting to add to his statement. If I didn't make myself clear, I apologize.
David
I didn't think that, but I realized that my post was too ambiquous.
Arti
Welcome to the David and Arti show. Talk about messages that belong on E-Mail. But I don't mind. It makes for some reading. That's the difference between us. I don't mind your non-subway excahanges, but you seem to be bothered by those of us who combine the two.
You'll be on the guest list :-)
Arti
....the blue line pico station aint marching at all .....
Yeah, besides, the LA Lakers are looossers. Old news...
....the pico BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL is a total failure......next to the STAPELS CENTER ....built by CORPORATE WELFARE ..( like giants stadium in sanfrancisco ) Man !! I am sure glad I didnt co-operate with census 2000..!!!
now who is going to tell post that the pico blue line station next to that public-welfare STAPELS CENTER is a success ??
subject says it all
The only difference between this thread and the myriad other off-topic threads is that this one STARTED off-topic.
-Hank
Basically, by wasting your time trying to be a netcop (I'm not talking specifically to anyone), more bandwidth was wasted with these "THIS IS OFF TOPIC" responses and more messages were posted on this thread than would otherwise have been.
Hey Arti: If you noticed my piece, I also mentioned transportation as related to sports. We on this website are a pretty flexible bunch who happen to know a lot of things besides subway. Come on and get with the program.
IMHO the best thing about sports it to watch it, not talk about it.
Arti
I am confused about the term Conrail.
When I was a kid, the MTA passenger railroad that is today called Metro-North was called Conrail. However, nowadays "Conrail" refers to a private freight carrier which (according to their website) operates in NJ and Philly, as well as in Detroit.
What is/was the relationship between the Consolidated Rail Corp. and the MTA?
Furthermore, I have found the term "Conrail" on a number of current maps of NYC, most recently on the website Mapblast (see map below):
Notice that the tracks in the center of the page and south of Fulton St. carry the label "Conrail Railroad". Curiously, these same tracks carry the label "PA Railroad" once they cross north of Fulton St.
Is the presence of the "Conrail" name on this map simply due to a lack of updating? I ask because I do notice some other outdated info on this map, such as the presence of the LIRR Rockaway Division tracks with the label "Li Railroad", and the only-recently-outdated label "Interborough Pkwy." on what is now called the Jackie Robinson Pkwy. (By the way, if you ask me, it is no compliment to have that broken-down deathtrap of a highway named after you!)
Or, is this map just totally unreliable for rail info? I ask this in light of the quirky and rather arbitrary way in which subways are represented.
Most subways are not shown at all, but some get represented with the railroad track symbol. (The Brighton Line alone gets the label "Nycta Subway".) However, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to which subways get this treatment. Some elevated trains are shown (Franklin St. shuttle; A train in Queens), some not (J train). Also, some underground trains are shown with the railroad track symbol (A train near Nostrand). Not terribly consistent.
So, what is the current denotation of "Conrail", and, what is its history?
Ferdinand Cesarano
Conrail was a government-sponsored corporation that took over the assets of several bankrupt private railroads in the early 1970's. These included the Penn Central, Reading, Central of New Jersey, and some others. Conrail later was privatized, and about a year ago was taken over by CSX and Norfolk Southern and its routes split among them. That Mapquest map of Queens is incorrect, as you surmised; the "Conrail" route at the center of the page is now part of the New York & Atlantic, formerly the LIRR (I don't believe that Conrail ever owned it).
Although Conrail was essentially a freight-only operation, it did operate what are now the Metro-North passenger lines for a time as successor to the Penn Central.
I believe the actual date was Apr 1st 1976. Penn Central was the result of the merger between New York Central and Pennsylvania RR's, and was included in Conrail. Erie-Lackawanna was the result of the merger of the Erie and Delaware, Lackawanna & Western RR's and also was included. The Lehigh Valley was another RR included. I think that the New York, New Haven & Hartford RR was also part of it. A lot of great old railroad names disappeared with the creation of Conrail.
NYC + PRR (and later NYNH&H) = Penn Central (late 1960's)
Erie + DL&W = Erie Lackawanna (early 1960's I believe)
4/1/76:
PC + E-L + LV + RDG + CNJ = CONRAIL
Conrail as legally known as the Consolidated Rail Corporation.
They operated the lines now known as Metro-North under contract to the MTA.
The line through Brooklyn & Queens, as shown on the map, was originally New York Connecting Railroad, owned jointly by the New Haven and the Long Island. Conrail had trackage rights over this line, and most likely when the map data was produced, was the ONLY thing you'd see on the line.
I remember in the mid-1960's, all the freights on the line were New Haven, pulled by pairs of the ex-Virginian rectifier electrics (NH class EF-4, 300-311). All the switching, however, such as at the Bay Ridge yard, was done by LIRR Alco S-2's. In the late 1960's, NH started sending a lot of diesel-powered trains down the line and the electric disappeared.
[The line through Brooklyn & Queens, as shown on the map, was originally New York Connecting Railroad, owned jointly by
the New Haven and the Long Island. Conrail had trackage rights over this line, and most likely when the map data was
produced, was the ONLY thing you'd see on the line.]
I guess, originally, Amtrak service to NY State and New England originated at Grand Central, right? *Now* Amtrak uses the NYCR over Hellgate for New England service, and the old NY Central West Side Frieght line for "Empire" service so they can centralize their NY "hub," but I recall hearing my uncle tell stories of loco power switches somewhere on the NY Central Albany line (Poughipskie? <--forgive butchered spelling) for electric service into Grand Central in the 70's. Also, I remember Amtrak's continuing to operate a ticket window in Grand Central when I first got here in 1996, up until they began the rennovation.
Can anyone elaborate?
Prior to about 1969 (and AMTRAK), only through trains to Boston (from Washington) used the hell Gate Bridge routing; trains originating/terminating in New York used Grand Central Terminal. Around 1969 (or maybe it was 1970), the Penn Central moved the so-called "long distance" New York to Boston (and Springfield) trains over to Pennsylvania Station. (Note that, originally, the United Aircraft TURBOTRAIN utilized Grand Central.) Electric power still changed from the New Haven EP-5s to Pennsylvania GG-1s at Penn Station, until the pantographs of the GG-1s were modified to mesh with the New Haven's catenary (I believe it was after the inception of AMTRAK that enough GG-1s were modified to hold down the service). The electrics ran from New York to New Haven, where the diesels took over for the run north.
Running north to Albany (on the Hudson line), AMTRAK utilized the former CUT (Cleveland Union Terminal) electrics as far as Croton-Harmon, where the E-8s (and, later, SDP-40Fs) took over. In the latter part of the 70s, AMTRAK acquired some former New Haven FL-9s; these replaced the CUT electrics to Croton-Harmon. Later, the FL-9s ran all the way to Albany, where the SDF-40Fs and/or FP-40Hs took over. The Fl-9s remained after Amtrak moved this service from Grand Central Terminal to Pennsylvania Station (around 1990), utilizing the former New York Central west side freight line.
My impression at the time was that the federal government, which created Conrail, thought it was a freight railroad and the new entity was surprised to discover that it had commuter operations (PC + E-L + RDG + CNJ). These were spun off to local authorities as quickly as feasible.
Bob
It took 5-7 years before Conrail turned over the commuter lines to the Regional Authorities
....well, that's "quickly as feasible" when you're dealing with governmenta agencies!!!
As I posted before the old map in the haddonfield PATCo station was labeled "Conrail Seashore Trains".
Hey Morons!! You forgot to include the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. That became part of Conrail to. Just because most people usually ignore South Jersey dosen't mean they can ignore our own little railroad.
[Hey Morons!!...]
Sorry, Mike. I downloaded your post without realizing it was addressed to others.
Bob
May I offer the following analysis. In 1972, the Trustees in bankruptcy for Penn Central did a study which noted that 80 % tonnage was on 20 % of the line. They asked the court to let them junk the "underperforming lines." Instead Congress created Conrail to take over and operate ALL of the bankrupts(Reading-CNJ had been for years and Hurricane Agnes wiped out E-L in '73. LV was bankrupt but owned by PRR(Penn Central) New Haven which had also been bankrupt for several years was ordered into PC by the ICC) Conrail was supposed to revive everything so that the industries would have stable service. However, iommediately after assuming control the pruning process began with the wholesale elimination of much of the Erie west of New York State, the end of Jersey Central other than the Raritan suburban line(which includes the connection to the Reading route to Philly) After the Harley Staggers RR reform legislation in 1980, Conrail wwas essentially given a free hand to slice and dice at will resulting in wholesale line closures. Ultimately Conrail ended up with a map not very different from the 1972 study. Having revived the otherwise moribund capitalist enterprise with a massive injection of "welfare for corporations" the Reagan Administration thenb arranged to sell the now healthy railroad at a bargain price to the private sector. Norfolk Southern wanted to buy but CSX was able to frustrate them. Conrail went private flourished, and finally was ponce again targeted by CSX and NS resulting in today's results.
Hurricane Agnes "Wiped Out" EL in June 1972 - NOT '73, the filing was on June, 21, the week after the tragedy. EL FOREVER!!!
[Reagan Administration then arranged to sell the now healthy
railroad at a bargain price to the private sector. Norfolk Southern wanted to buy but CSX was able to frustrate them.]
Secretary of Transportation Elizabeth Dole tried to sell CR to NS for $1.2 billion. CR had $800 million cash, so it was net $400 million. Congress transportation committee chairmen John Dingell and Jim Florio (who just lost the NJ Senate primary) stopped the give-away and CR wound up going public with an IPO that netted $1.6 or $1.8 billion, after the $800 million was taken away and given to NASA, which had just suffered the Challenger explosion and several failures trying to launch weather satellites.
Bob
I believe the gov't took Conrail public some time in 1985, before NASA began it's horrid series of launch failures.
January 28, 1986 is a day I will never forget, as I watched the shuttle explosion live. I was home sick with the flu that day. EVERY station, including WPIX-TV, WNEW-TV, and WOR-TV interrupted all of their normal broadcasting to cover it. Only time I ever saw EVERY station on the dial broadcasting the exact same thing.
-Hank
I really was heartbroken, I knew Judy Resnick quite well, from a Jewish Singles group we were both active in the LA area in the 70s.
They were all broadcasting something about OJ's low speed chase down the freeway in LA in 1994.
The Con in Conrail presumably stood for Consolidated, but "con" is more like it. The Northeast was left with a monopoly railroad, which cash cowed it for profit. Only the recent breakup has revived what the government took away. But if they continue to allow all these mergers, we'll be left with just two of everything. Welcome back inflation.
There is presently an 18 month moratorium on rail mergers
while the feds "study" the problem.
There will be 4 US Majors, Union Pacific, BNSF, CSX and NS, with many smaller lines. Now the airlines want to merge United and Usless Air, American and Northworst. Trying to screw the public again.
Too many mergers. It's scary. Monopoly pricing power means the end of the low inflation years. Once all the big corporations get together, the cost of everything and the quality of everything will be similar to...the MTA.
What we need is a President who is like Teddy Roosevelt, who was not afraid to get down and dirty with the big corporations. Al Gore, think not, Georgie Bush, never, he is owned by Insurance, banking and oil. Ralph Nader and the Green Party, not enough clout
[Hurricane Agnes wiped out E-L in '73]
Didn't Hurricane Diane cause severe damage to the pre-merger Lackawanna in the 1950's?
It did, even more severe than what Agnes caused to EL in '72. Hazel (1954) also made a mess of things, although it was fading by the time it reached Pennsylvania.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you identify at a station where a train is heading to, which are the intermidiate stops, if it is local or express and the alternative main routes it will take?
Thanks for all your answers!
Trains have side destination boards. The two terminals are listed, and you can probably figure out where's it yourself. To figure out the intermediate stops, get a map! The conductor will anounce whether it will run local or express when the doors are about to close. You can also determine it based on which track it's on.
What do you mean by alternative main routes?
Thank you all for your answers!!
By alternative routes I meant when a train, to reach the same final destiantion, can go to it, starting at the same terminal, via route "A" or "B", calling at different stations, before returning to the main route again.
I think in that case the train should have a different letter/number designation, depending on the routes (or stops, like line 1 and 9.
Thank you again. I am a nyc subway fan from Buenos Aires ARGENTINA. I asked this question because here, our lines are too simple: each route (we only have five: A,B,C,D,E) has only two final destinations (North or South end terminal). No trains go back in the middle of the tunnel, stop at different (or at only some of them) stations than the others or run express.
At most stations there are overhead signs along the platform edge showing the line name or number and the destination(s) and hours/days of operation or "All times". The signs may say:
A 8th Ave Express via Central Park West to 207 st Manhattan. Late Night via Local or
E Queens Express to Jamaica Center. Late night via Local.
When some tracks are not used the signs will state : All service on opposite Track.
As far as alternate routes- service changes are posted near the booth and along the walls and columns of the stations.
Service changes are also available at the MTA website: mta.nyc.ny.us
Click New York City Transit, Click service notices, subway
1. Where a train is headed: On trains with roll signs, the sign on top is the northern destination and the one on the bottom is the Southern destination. Usually, the conductor will anounce the Boro of the destination unless already in that boro or at the first stop. In those cases, the conductor will announce the last stop. On trains with front destination signs, that tells where it's going. On trains with digital signs, simply wait until it shows a station name. If the name is short, it will have "to" followed by the station name. Since half the time the sign is wrong, look at the platform sign.
2. Intermediate stops: IRT (numbered) routes have strip maps on the inside of the cars, except the #3 line and the Times Sq. Shuttle. Use the regular map for all other lines.
3. Express or Local: On the IRT, look for a diamond number for express service in Queens or the Bronx. All other lines or areas check which track its on, center tracks are express, some exceptions apply (50th/6th, downtown; 71/continental, Jamaica Bound; 168st A, C, either direction; Canal St. 8th ave line, uptown; and a few others). Check the overhead signs.
4. Alternate main routes: I assume you mean multiple routes under the same designation. For the 5, look at the front destination sign. The side signs at the beginning and end of rush hour are usually wrong for the southern dest. The northern dest. is usually correct. For the A as well as the few 2, 4, 5 lines that go to New Lots, check the side sign. Some trains turn in the middle of the route, like the R,and F, check the side sign to see.
Today's fire was between Friendship Heights and Bethesda. This was one day after the one at White Flint. Trains are not running between those two stations and some MetroBuses were in shuttle service (I believe they were from Montgomery Division) supplementing the 42 Ride-On Bus. I saw 915103A and it was packed so much that there was a person standing past the standee line. I did not enter the system itself since I had my bike and didn't want to lock it up. I got some pics, I will post them when I make my web page over the summer.
51 MPH on an R44 A train coming home today through the Cranberry St. tube. HA!
Done one better, Brooklyn Bound, same tube, 54 MPH on car 5220!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
They're lemons, but they're lemons that can really boogie ...
The R44's were certainly lemons, but now the juice is squeezed out. These babies can haul!!
Had to go to W4th the other evening. Hopped a B at Bedford Pk, deciding not to die of old-age waiting for the s/b D. As they held the B at 145th, I heard the familiar wheezing sounds of the arriving s/b A. Up I went. I'll tell you, that A was moving. Even leaving 59th, there was barely a hesitation; we shot right down to 42nd.
Can't believe I'm saying it but the 44's are fast becoming my favorite cars.
Joe C.
You don't suppose the unthinkable - field shunting restoration - has happened?!?:-)
i don't think so! you probably boarded a train with all 32 motors (4 per car x 8 car train/40 motors in 10 car consist) working. even though you may not see a motor fault light lit there may be a dead motor or two under a car or in the consist. I operated R62a 1675 out of Parkchester and the consist was rocking going south. Sometime going north I noticed it operating a little slower at startup. I peer out the window no propulsion fault lights lit anywhere glanced at the ammeter (#2cab operating end on 1675) low amperage sure enough both motors on #2 truck had died somewhere going north. Hit reset with no results. out of the blue both motors kicked back in after the next station stop but they continue to die out after just about every other station stop?????
Yes, we had a peppy R44 on the "A" a couple weeks ago. I like my R44s with dim light (preferably with a few bars out) and replacement plastic light shades over the doors, like #5208-09-07-06 has.
My fond memories of the R44 when new are rooted in 1972, 1973 and 1974 when the 100-259 cars ruled the "F" line and the 260-399 cars were out on the "D" train.
My first ride on them was in 1972 (can't remember the exact date, may have it written down somewhere - it was summertime, maybe August). I JUST MISSED it at 47th-50th Street, changing from the southbound "D" to the Queens-bound "F". It was heading for Coney Island so I decided to chase it. I got off at Avenue "X" to catch it coming northbound and was successful. The first R44 car I ever rode in was #140.
Unfortunately, he is no longer with us. He became #5282 in the GOH, and died an awful death on July 3, 1997.
wayne
Ah, yes, that terrible accident on the A. That was the last car of the train which split that switch, wasn't it?
I think I finally figured out why the R-44s seem to have gained speed the way several Subtalkers have claimed: they've been possessed by the sprit of the R-10s. After all, they run on the very same line.
R44's were always fast, at least as long as I've ridden them (15 years).
Yep, they ARE - it's just how fast they're being driven. Last good R44 run I had was out to the Fulton Express; I got 47 out of it from Hoyt to Nostrand, #5408 lead motor. They seem to be driven rather conservatively in the CPW express stretch. I'm finding that this disturbing trend is spreading to the R38s as well.
In their younger days, R44s would tear up the quarter mile beneath Queens Boulevard, probably reaching 50MPH. They were very quiet, even when moving at top speed. They clatter now, not sure just why. They still provide a thrill when in flight.
Wayne
No, not always. When new, you always new when one would be the next train to arrive, well before it ever did. The huge service delays were unbearable. Even the R-1-9's that were showing severe signs of
aging then still had more pep. The main problem with the "new" R44 was that the acceleration would start out fine but then would just conk out at a certain speed, oftentimes while the train was still leaving the station. Additionally, the crowds were much heavier then. A large car with only 4 sets of doors was not all that practical.
Of course we all know the situation with the swapping of trucks with the R46's, the many rebuilds, until the R44 FINALLY came out right.
Like I said earlier, I welcome a ride on them; wish they were on the D. They are, to this day, smoother and quieter than the other cars. The R46, while always faster, never had that riding quality of the 44.
Joe C.
Yep, the rear truck split the switch in Homeball Alley and went sideways into the curtain wall, tearing #5282 in half like a piece of bread. There's still a chunk of the curtain wall missing! His partner #5283 (ex #129) was dragged off the rails and her underskirts caught fire from the sparks. The other two cars are orphaned.
wayne
I like the feel of the R38 when they get it wound up like that. You tend to not feel the speed as much in the 75-foot cars even though they are capable of it. In an R38 you are bouncing around, you really feel it; I had one go 53mph (#4008) in Cranberry Tube recently.
What a rush!
wayne
You think Cranberry is hot! I have one tube better, the 59th Street Tubes for the Broadway Lines! Here is my recent Logs of speed occurances in this tube:
R40 Astoria Bound N - 54 MPH
R46 71st Bound R - 57 MPH (THE BEST ONE!)
R32 71st Bound R - 53 MPH
R32 Asotria Bound N - 54 MPH
R40 Coney Island Bound N - 52 MPH
R68 Astoria Bound N - 56 MPH
You want Speed? The tubes are the best spots!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I still rate the CPW express dash and the Howard Beach-Broad Channel runs on the good old R-10s as the best places for speed rushes. And lest we forget the southbound express run from 59th St. to 42nd St. I often wondered how the R-10s ever managed to stop without overshooting the station, as fast as they were going.
True, with me being 20 years old, I can barley remember riding the R-10s (I do, but vagly). Even though theses cars are not in service, but I rode in the cab of the R110A from 96th Street to Chambers, and for new kids on the block these bad boys did a great deal of speed along the Bway-7th Avenue Line. Between 34th and 14th & 14th and Chambers, we clocked this baby in at max 59 MPH! WHOA What a rush! The stations were blurs!
As for the R110B, she does local work and barely has time to show off! So for now I think the R46s are our best bet for a good rush, the R44s maybe catching up, but I still hate them!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Odd that the 75' cars are consistantly faster than the 60' cars, even under the uncontrolled conditions. It would be interresting to get another 20 runs or more tallied and then graph the results. It'll prove that the 75' cars, especially the R-68s and not slower.
Steve, I'd be pleased to work with you on a controlled, scientific experiment.
For example, two different types can NOT be compared by "side-by-side" running.
It has to be sequential tests, on the same track, using one motorman. A number of trainsets should be used over many runs, with average speeds calculated over the multiple runs and trainsets.
Of course, environmental conditions should be the same, such as rail moisture condition, wind, and temperature (you knew I had to get a weather link in here...).
(This is all well and good, but I can't imagine why the NYCTA would be interested, even though we railfans are!)
Try the Peublo testing tracks; they aren't too busy right now.
Joe C
Todd, I would find it hard to find enough money in my budget to 'hire' another tain operator. (Technically, the cost of the track test operator comes out of the shop budget)This is why I would settle for 20 or 30 runs randomly clocked and then take averages for each car class. I'd expect to find that the averages would vary by 2 MPH or less. If that was actually the result, I'd consider it vindication.
Sounds reasonable, Steve. I'd come down with a stopwatch and clipboard (remember that? ancient version of PC spreadsheet :-) if you set up this test!
Sounds like a plan Todd. Perhps on your next tour of duty at '88'. Maybe we can get Erik or one of the other employees to join us.
Eric and I rebuilt engines for street and racing so if you are looking for one who is quick with the starting tree, you have come to the right place. The problem is there are no two tracks exactly alike. Some local stops on the Brighton Line have third rail gaps leaving stations, therefore giving an express an edge as they would run in parallel longer. Rolling resistance on curves must be factored as an express track curves less than the inside track so straightaways are a must. Try to get the Rockaway flats; no switches, curves, few power substation changeover gaps to worry about, except maybe LILCO's substandard voltage.
The plan is to take 20 or 30 runs from 60th street/Lex through the 60th St tube to a fixed point. We time the runs and log the max speed. After 20 or 30 runs we'll have enough data for each type of car (granted, not under controlled circumstances) that we can get some good averages of speed and put this debate to bed once and for all.
I think thats kind of cheating using a 3% downgrade. Tangent level trackage and a radar gun should suffice. Heck I could get a bicycle to 40 MPH with a grade like that. I did track testing in the Rockaways a year after the Williamsburg Bridge accident using IRT cars. Actually, Eric came up with a design tapped into the speedometer ports and using relays tapped into the 6 wires, making power available for upgrades and using Energy Conservation for all other times where the power is not required. Unfortunately, it seems like there is no need for a suggestion box in the TA.
Not cheating exactly because every train has equal mechanical advantage of gravity on its side. It just seems that if you want to get the greatest diversity of readings, you need to go where the top speeds will be attained. There is one area on the Concourse line between 161 street and 167 street where the curve leaving 161 and the steep grade make it a laboreous run for the best train. I've been over it hundreds of times. A great train = 23 MPH entering 167 St. Average = 22 MPH while a dead motor or 2 will reduce you to 19 - 21 MPH (that's regardless of equipment type). So a similar test there will not give you any kind of meaningful diversity. B-3 track - 34th St. to W4th St. will give you another good shot for speed but you take the N line and R line out of the equation. Since the N runs everything from R-32s to R-68A and the R uses R-46 you would be down to R-68 (D) R-68A (B) & R-40 (Q) on 6th Avenue. This cuts you car-type sample down. Only draw-back with 63rd St is the time it'll take for each run and the return trip.
I get the feeling that our favorite Supt. has had some of his Hippos in training, kind of like a Sumo wrestler on a diet. Stay out of their way they're mean and pumped up :-)
Mr t
What's wrong with LILCO's voltage? Why do you think it is substandard?
LILCO doesn't exist anymore!
It's LIPA now, I know. But why is their voltage less than ConEd's?
I did not notice any difference at all with the trains I took on the Rockaway line as far as performance is.
I'm not familiar with the idiosyncrasies of LIPA or lack thereof.
I remember hearing that the third rail out in the Rockaways fed by the Broad Channel substation puts out less voltage than others. Having operated out there for many years, I have felt loss of power and even could on occasion, hear indifferences in compressor motor speed and other oddities, especially with R44s, in the summer. The R110B died just south of that location during it's initial test period. I guess a Con Ed man who know the area could explain better, it is just my observation.
That's what we like to see a man proud of his work ! Do keep at it as when they're retired maybe Branford will want one, they are SINGLES after all ;-) I can see it now our R-9 & a Hippo linked up and trotting thru the weeds to Short Beach, we'll be keeping that inside door OPEN of course.
Mr t
Recently did 55 on an SIR train from Grasmere to Clifton. Also did 47 over the north channel bridge. R44s are fast, but I still feel the R46s are the fastest (59 in the 59st tunnel!). R32s tie with the 44s (55 in the same tunnel).
How fast does the Amtrak Northeast Direct travel on the NE Corridor?
Standing at Princeton Junction, they don't seem that fast when they past by. On the train, it seems like were flying.
[How fast does the Amtrak Northeast Direct travel on the NE Corridor? ]
Metroliner Service does 125; long distance/E60 trains do 110.
It's realy nice and sweet that the MTA/TA REALY want to build a subway under this street after 50 years of planing/studies and going as far as building a few short segments almost 25 years ago,BUT,WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE THE DIRT START FLYING?
[BUT,WHEN ARE WE GOING TO SEE THE DIRT START FLYING?]
About the same time we see the pigs start flying.
Not really, I fly from time to time and there's still no Second Avenue Subway.
Yeah, but you do in in an airplane, unless there's something you are not telling us. :)
About the same time they start the South 4th Street Station.
EXACTLY MY POINT! There's been enough talk. lets see the work start, then i'll believe them,but until then..... which brimgs me to another point.WHY wasn't the Archer Ave/South Queens line completed to its planed terminal[SPRINGFIELD BLVD], and why didnt the TA just go on and build the Queens Superexp anyway[NIMBY'S BE DAMNED] ?
[and why didnt the TA just go on and build the Queens Superexp anyway[NIMBY'S BE DAMNED] ? ]
Some posts awhile ago mentioned that TA had no solid plans anyway. I haven't heard there was any NIMBY issue.
Arti
If you're referring to using the Montauk Branch LIRR as I'd have supported there was a NIMBY issue in the late 70's I think. Worried about their kids getting killed. Can't remember any kids getting killed on the Brighton tracks and they're busy enough.
I don't think MTA ever got as far as determining the ROW anyway.
Arti
ok, Ok... I am fustrated, I have tried to figure it out, but I can't...
What the Hell are NIMBY's or what does it stand for?
I know it has something to do with people...
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Not In My Back Yard. Basically, people opposed to a project soley because it will change thier little corner of the earth. Maybe this one should go on the FAQ's page?
Thank you....
The Hell with the NIMBY's...
Frank D
NIMBY's are generally thought of as people who object to something necessary, but generally thought of as bad, very close to them. Ie. a group home for recoving drug addicts on their block.
A better acronym for subway objectors who are against change in general is BANANAs -- Build Absoluting Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone.
I guess you have to be BANANAs to think that subways are in the same class as a druggie half-way house.
Well they tore down the 3rd. Ave. el and the East side now has only one subway line. I'd say it should be done by 1970, tops ...
Shhh, they're studying . . .
Why not pay a private company to build the thing. It would be a lot faster and cheaper. It's been done on the Hudson-Bergen, and don't forget the IRT-BRT dual contracts.
Not to mention that it might actually get done.
The CAPITOL DISTRICT TRANSIT AUTHORTIY has unveiled plans for an new commuter stye rapid transit system for ALBANY, TROY, SARATOGA and surounding cities.Plans are in the works for a demonstrator routing from SARATOGA along I 87[NORTHWAY] to downtown ALBANYs AMTRAK STATION.
I forget where I heard it, but they will be borrowing a trainset (loco and some cars) from Seattle's "Sounder" operation, which already has the cars but won't be starting operations for a few months. The "Sounder" trainset will be used for demonstrational purposes only, then returned west.
Guess they figured the closest stuff probably would crap out during the tests.....LIRR's bilevels and DE30 locos!!
I know the DE30s are crapping out (why couldn't the LIRR go with the off-the-shelf dual mode GE Genesis engine?) but I thought the Kawasaki bilevels were doing fine.
So Albany's transit system is interested in rail service. Some kind of DMU (Flexliner?) service would be best unless Albany traffic is severe.
I know the DE30s are crapping out (why couldn't the LIRR go with the off-the-shelf dual mode GE Genesis engine?) but I thought the Kawasaki bilevels were doing fine.
So Albany's transit system is interested in rail service. Some kind of DMU (Flexliner or Bombardier's Talent?) service would be best unless Albany traffic is severe.
There is no Amtrak station in downtown Albany.
(There is no Amtrak station in downtown Albany).
But there should be. The station that is used is a windswept platform across the river in Rensellear. The orignial station has been abandoned for who knows how long. Are the tracks across the river and into the station still usable?
I believe that the old Albany train station has been renovatd into State offices. As a matter of fact, I think it is the headquarters for the State University of New York (SUNY).
CDTA would like to build a route from Saratoga via I87 to DOWNTOWN Albany. while ther is a station in RENN. The new station would be located off I787 near the I90 interchange
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon, Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez 201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the Powerhouse exhibit.
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon,
Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter
Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ; Exchange Place stop on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail
WHEN: June 7- June 30
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez
201.420-1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and
Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the
WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for
decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area
dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want
to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we
might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us
now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening
while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the
Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the
Powerhouse exhibit.
Since the new cars seem to be heading over to the east ny yard, why are they only going to be placed on the L and M lines? What of my beloved....oh sorry....what about the J/Z line? the 40/42 cars there are tired and their little feet.....?ok,ok,...got a little carried away].No seriously, there hasn't been a new rail car over on the JAMAICA line since 1969/70[r42] WE deserve new rail cars just like the L[UH]and M [BARF] !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Was that a bit over the top? I can never tell anymore!
you can have your new cars..
bring the redbirds back to the 1/9!!
The Redbirds are going to the torch - maybe not tomorrow, but eventually. The Redbird fleet is over 30 years old on average, and that's 30 years of hard service. NYCT is not in the business of making railfans happy - they are in the business of public transit.
Train Dude will tell you, try getting parts for 35 year old cars - it isn't easy - many things that were common in 1964 are not common now.
So, for all the Redbird fans: Ride 'em, photograph 'em, record 'em NOW, for one day they will be a memory, just like the cars they replaced.
Either they get scrapped or we can watch them fall apart. Unfortunately they aren't going to be around forever. What goes around comes around. The Lo-Vs and Hi-Vs were replaced by the Subway Cars we see now, and now it's time for the Redbirds to be replaced by the R-142s. You can't turn back time. I for one will surely miss them, since I grew up with them. Perhaps that would explain why I'm so intent on preserving the R-17. I want to preserve the past in the best way that I can, so it is not lost to future generations. I could say to my Grand Kids, "I rode this car many years ago." And that was the truth. I did ride the 17s in service on the shuttle until they were retired. But that's that. What more can you do than to relish the memory of what was once so great?
-Stef
I'm with Stef on that one.
They could make an effort to please us. I hate the employees who get on my case for staying in the station after a train just left or taking pictures. Considering the fact we pay to ride even though we don't go anywhere, we do deserve some more respect from them. Yesterday at Bethesda, I took a flash picture of a STOPPED J8 bus to Lakeforest while the driver was changing the sign and he got all mad at me. I don't flash it in the driver's faces or while they are driving. If only they knew that our $1.10 or $1.50 went to their salaries and we don't even go anywhere on the system, maybe they would try to please us.
The R143 are being designed and built specifically to work with a new signal system that is being installed on a prototype basis on the L only. Any cars left after the L is completely re-fit with the new cars will go to the M, so that the Metropolitan Ave shuttle can be run as an OPTO service. I'm sure that some cars will make their way to the J/Z on extra trips and the like. But I fully expect to see the new cars running on the A line before I see them anywhere else.
-Hank
Where are the fastest stretches on the LIRR? Last time I was running express on the main line between Mineola and Jamaica the train seems slower. Is the Babylon express ( the train that runs express stopping only at Freeport to Babylon) fairly fast, or is the whole LIRR slowing down?
According to the thread "Well slow me down" on lirrcommuters.org, LIRR is installing speed restrictions in spots because the new DD trains going fast are wearing the tracks down, so for "safety's sake" trains are not permitted to go over 60mph.
Lately I've been getting more speed "kicks" on the subway than LIRR.
[Is the Babylon express ( the train that runs express stopping only at Freeport to Babylon) fairly fast]
I don't know about the whole line, but the piece between Rosedale and Lynbrook is typically a fast run.
Mr t__:^)
I agree, but if you look at the train from Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream the Babylon trains run a step slower than say 10 years ago. And forget about the Far Rockaway/Long Beach Branches. I think they put up a approach signal before a train enters Valley Stream, which backs the whole damn line up.
I believe as a whole the LIRR has drop its speed by at leat 20 miles per hour.
Another fast stretch is from Jamaica to Locust Manor. Well it use to be at leats.
Frank D -Queens Blvd Exp.
Today I got a good "speed rush" on the LIRR. I was catching the 1:57pm train from Mineola to Jamaica, then changed to a Babylon train for Bellmore.
An OB train that was late pulled in right before and dumped it's passengers, then went OOS to Jamaica.
Then my train came. It was going pretty fast all the way to Jamaica, stations were a blur and power poles flew by us.
Then I changed to the Babylon train. Once we got toward the Montauk viaduct the train flew, power poles were flying by us and we were pretty fast past Valley Stream. It was pretty fast even with making all stops after Rockville Centre. The Babylon train did give a rough ride, but for me that added to the sensation of speed.
We must've been doing 70-80mph on both the main line stretch and the Babylon stretch in SE Queens and Valley stream.
I think it partially does depend on the engineer. If you get one that cares about being ontime and not fooling around, you'll have a nice ride. But if you get one of those yahoos, like when I was on the Babylon train the time before today, you'll be late and have a "silver snail".
I should have reported that guy, he was fooling around at Jamaica and chatting with his friends. He was talking to his friends on the train even while it was moving, which is a violation I believe.
In general I find that the quiet type engineers (ones who keep their door closed) generally operate the train faster than those who don't.
Another thing in general I find with subway T/O's, bus drivers, and even some LIRR engineers is that guys that are on the short side go fast. Who knows? Perhaps because women tend to not date shorter guys they get less lovin' and thus go faster because they may be angry about it. At 5'3 myself I can understand. This a whole another issue, though. I do remember once being on an Queens-bound F train (first car, R46 of course) on the Queens Blvd express, and the T/O (about 5'4) came out of his cab at Queens Plaza to check something and saw a woman with a really tall guy making out on the train. After seeing that, he sped all the way from QP to Roosevelt and then 71/Continental, where I got off.
That was my fastest ride on the Queens Blvd IND, it felt like we were doing over 50, all the stations were a blur. Perhaps his anger could've been strong enough to really get a Hippo moving! :-0
Sounds like you have some real size issues. I don't agree with any of your observations related to speed - size or dating.
Threads in other bbs indicate that the reason for recent slowdowns in diesel service on the LIRR are due to frame weakness on the new D series locomotives. It seems that the management decided that slowing down the trains will ease up the stress on the frames.
I doubt they're right as the LIRR frequently bandaids situations with slowing things down - usually with no improvement.
As for speeds on the LIRR - I was told a year ago - the following:
MAS between Harold and just prior to Jamaica for M1-M3: 80MPH
MAS for Portions of the Babylon branch between vicinity of St. Albans & just West of Babylon: 80 MPH
NOTE: GP38-2s and MP15s in the same area as above were limited to 65MPH due to slower braking.
Most other lines on the LIRR limit M1-M3 trains to 60-65MPH.
Most other diesel lines on the LIRR are limited to between 45 and 65MPH.
NOTE: I believe the Main Line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport is limited to 45MPH.
Hope this helps.
We weren't doing 80mph last time I was on the Jamaica-Harold stretch. My train was express, and it looked like were only doing about 50-55mph the whole time, with slowdowns around Woodside.
Also was slow on the Babylon branch between St.Albans and Lynbrook, last time I was on it appeared we were only doing about 40-45mph, the cars on Sunrise Hwy were beating us.
Out the front window I saw no trains ahead of us, I assume it's either a new speed restriction, OR, the engineer could care less about being ontime.
The result is were 10 minutes late. The proof that there are slowdowns is that often my train will arrive at the station under 5 minutes late, but I get to my destination over 10 minutes late.
I'll probably be taking the LIRR tomorrow, hopefully it'll be more fun than the last few times I rode.
With the LIRR, if you can see the train ahead of you you are too close. Watching the signal at Forest Hills, it doesn't change from - to / until the train is out of sight. BTW. Fastest run I've see is once from JAM to Mineola, in that direction, on a holiday special in 1997. It took from 3-5 seconds to completely pass New Hyde Park station. Fastest stretch on the D?30ACs is from Hicksville to JAM, sometimes Oyster Bay trains from Mineola to Jam.
Also my "silver snail" trips have been on M-1 and M-3 electrics. I was on the OB branch not too long ago and the diesel went alot faster between Mineola and Jamaica than the electric train I had in that same stretch.
It does appear they are doing work (when are they not!) by the Cross Island Pkwy on the main line, perhaps that accounts for the slowdowns in that vicinity.
You'll catch some nice speed rushes if you take one of those Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon expresses and don't catch any congestion ahead of you.
Just looking at the schedule makes it seem pretty darn fast -- a 29-30 minute local trip is reduced to 14-15 minutes on the express.
When I read the map of NYCT Subway Map, I find a lot of duplicating lines. Just exclude those partly duplicated ones, there are two excatly duplicated ones, line 1 and 9. Either one can be cancelled because they run the same routing! Also MTA can cancel line C as line C is repeating line A but with shorter routes only.
I really want to know why there are lots of duplicatinh lines in NYCT subway.
NYC has the duplicates because the lines you see in Manhattan and 4th Ave Brooklyn, Eastern Parkway Brooklyn, Flatbush Ave brooklyn are trunk lines.
Some duplication is Local vs express while others go to different destinations such as the 2 and 3 split after 135 and Lenox and after Franklin Ave in Brooklyn.
They are needed. The lines are overcrowded as is and would be severely overcrowded if some were deleted. As an example I refer to the packed trains- even midday while the Lenoxc reconstruction project was underway.
NYC needs more subways- not fewer.
On a sideline- lest you think we can cut overnight service--I work a night lunch relief job and as such ride during overnight hours. Discounting the homeless many lines such as E. F in Queens, Manhattan IRT, Manhattan BMT, L train, G train from Court Square to Metropolitan/Grand are often to the point of standing room.
[They are needed. The lines are overcrowded as is and would be severely overcrowded if some were deleted. As an example I refer to the packed trains- even midday while the Lenoxc reconstruction project was underway.
NYC needs more subways- not fewer. ]
I don't think he was trying to say that the MTA should delete any trains, just the lines. For example, delete the 9 trains, but add them to the 1 line.
Then how would people know which train skips 145, 207, 225 and 238 and which train skips 157, Dyckman, 215 and 231?
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I was trying to clear up a misunderstanding.
Nothing skips 231 St - it is an all-stop station.
Indeed it is...my 'home-away-from-home' station. Seems that I get a train lately that skips all stops from 96-137, and then to 168.
-Hank
Yes, and 238th is serviced by the 1, not the 9. My mistake.
let's say he meant to add all C trains to the A line- then the A would be local and as such would be packed more than it is already.
The 1/9 and J/Z skip stops were meant to reduce crowding.
MTA can operate an AX line for A express. Actually, I like double naming system, ther are three shuttle lines also using the letter S. They should distingilsh into AS, 7S and SS. AS for Rockaway Park Shuttle, 7S for 42nd St. Shuttle as it is parallel to line 7. Of course SS is for Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
How about calling the express the 'A' train and the local the 'AA' :-)
They certainly could if they wanted to bring back the old double letters. Quite frankly, the AA marking could have been kept even today. I don't think there would be any confusion, since it would still parallel the A along its entire route, even in Brooklyn.
Yeah, but they changed it for good reason. The single-letter Express double-letter local setup was screwy. The F was express only in Queens, and then only during the day. The same with the E. The D was express everywhere EXCEPT the Bronx non-rush. There were too many confusing exceptions to the rule for it to be easily understood. And that rule didn't apply at all to the IRT.
-Hank
You're only looking at the ROUTE, not the service information. If you looked at the service info, you'd see that the A and C are an express and local, respectively. The 1/9 (and J/Z) are skip-stop express services, where every other train makes essentially every other stop.
Many of the manhattan truck lines get 'feeder' trains from other lines. For instance, the 6th Ave line has 4 routes on it. From Brooklyn, you get trains from the Brighton, West End, and Culver Lines (D Local/Q Express, B, and F, respectively). From 6th Ave, D trains continue to the Bronx, B trains run to upper Manhattan (except rush hours, when they run as a local counterpart in the Bronx to the D), the Q goes to Queens via 63rd St, and the F runs out to Queens via 53rd St and Queens Blvd.
-Hank
Looking for the most rundown community or part of NYC.
You sure do love those run-down, dilapitated parts of the City, don't you? Try the South Bronx.
Nahh. Try Eastern Parkway Extension and St Mark's Place. After saying the one place in the city I wouldn't like to do field surveys in was Brownsville, I ended up stranded in that spot for half a day after the low-bidder city car I was driving (an early 1980s K car) broke down at that spot.
[re bad sections of NYC]
[Nahh. Try Eastern Parkway Extension and St Mark's Place. After saying the one place in the city I wouldn't like to do field surveys in was Brownsville, I ended up stranded in that spot for half a day after the low-bidder city car I was driving (an early 1980s K car) broke down at that spot.]
That spot couldn't have been THAT bad, unless you posted your message at a seance.
(That spot couldn't have been THAT bad, unless you posted your message at a seance).
For a 200 pound male (unless it is clearly visible that it is 200 pound of flab, no muscle), who doesn't look like he has any money, who looks like he knows his way around, in broad daylight, in a place where people are around, there are no unsafe neighborhoods in June 2000. Been here, there and everywhere: no problem.
Looking for slum conditions: how about touring my bathroom...
;-)
from what i heard about your bathroom, roaches don't even go in there...
...heypaul, which ones are you talking about? The two or six legged variety???
the 6 legged ones....
Well, I rememer the first time I transferred off the Franklin Ave. Shuttle to the A line at Fulton St. If anyone remembers the old rickety setup that transfer had (paper transfer, and you had to walk down the old stairs, on the street, then across Fulton to the enterence to the A train). This was in 1986. Can you say sh*tting bricks??
Anything like this around in the sustem today?
Yikes.. I've been to Saratoga and Eastern Pkwy. Not quite Disneyland.
Why?
Speaking as a person born in the BED-STY area, I for one can say that not all parts or people are ''ghetto''. Some families do ''work'',own brownstones ,some stores and so forth. My mother was a teacher at P.S 309 on Ralph ave and Madison street. My father worked for[of all people]the transit authority during the early 50's to early 70s before he retired to do carpentry work[ you can't make an southerner really callit quites to hard work]. They worked during their lifetime,and taught us[my sisters and I] VALUES that I in turn teach my own children. We went to school, stayed out of trouble and basically made somthing out of ourselves. While I moved away, my sisters stayed and they are making the best of it the best way they can, by ''working'',and keeping the faith. So to all SUB-TALKERS who fear the ''GHETTO'', remember, the ghetto is a state of mind and there is nothing to fear but fear itself. thank you.
You know I was out in Bed-Stuy on a sunny Saturday doing field surveys for the census address list process. I was over in the historic district. Beautiful buildings, well kept. Children laughing and playing, people sitting on the stoops. Eveyone was happy to seem me and talk, and everyone knew the census was coming.
The census mail return rate for that area was AWFUL. But it certainly isn't a scary neighborhood.
[You know I was out in Bed-Stuy on a sunny Saturday doing field surveys for the census address list process. I was over in the historic district. Beautiful buildings, well kept. Children laughing and playing, people sitting on the stoops. Eveyone was happy to seem me and talk, and everyone knew the census was coming.]
I've heard that Bed-Stuy is the next major neighborhood that'll become desirable and maybe even trendy. That may sound unlikely, but ten or even five years ago, Williamsburgh and the Lower East Side seemed hopeless too.
Peter, the next neighborhoods to become the "hot place to live" will be the fringe 'hoods around Park Slope (Prospect & Crown Heights to the east and Sunset Park to the west). Already the brownstones and whatever lofts are in those areas are being revitalized for the foreseen "upscaling" trends. (Hint: look to the rebuilding of the Franklin Shuttle and the solid building stock along the ROW).
Doug aka BMTman
Prospect Heights already hosts a growing population of young professionals who have "discovered" the area over the last few years. I think Astoria has also had an influx of young people looking for easy access to Manhattan and low(er) rents. This isn't as impressive to me as the breakneck pace of luxury developments along the west side of the Hudson though.
That is what is happening to Crown Heights/Prospect Heights/Fort Greene from what I've heard. It's becoming trendy to young urban professionals (I'll try to refrain from saying "yuppies") who cannot find houses in othe sections like Caroll Gardens and Brooklyn Heights.
Right. Because of sky-rocketing rents in Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights and Carroll Gardens the "coffee-bar crowd" (my terminology to replace the less PC term, "Yuppies") is branching out into territories on the fringe of those neighborhoods with similar housing stock (brownstones, wall-ups, small high-rises). These folks are learning the hard way that there's more to life than paying $1,000 a month rent for something the size of a broom closet.
Doug aka BMTman
You're right. During the early 80's -- during my college days -- I dated a young lady who's family lived in one of those brownstones in a very nice area called Stuyvesant Heights. They lived about a block from the Utica Ave. station of the A train (across from Boys 'n Girls High School).
Doug aka BMTman
That is about all I could ever wish to say, kamehame. I agree with you 100%.
I agree. I'm glad you wrote that. That's why I wrote only "Why?" I could not believe that someone would ask that.
There are some,[im not pointing fingers or naming names]people in this great big city of ours[and others]that tend to draw conclusions,make asumetions and out and out say the''GHETTO'' like it was a bad taste in their mouths after eating.GHETTO[to some] walks arm and arm with HOOD i.e =hoodrat.Neighborhood teen wannabe gangsters with JOHN WAYNE 'tudes that maim,kill and basiclly destroy every and anything not understood by limited mentalites
Well, since I moved out of an apartment in the Midwood section -- unfortunately -- the property values have mysteriously gone up (strange?) so I guess that neighborhood is ruled out....
You might want to check out Sheepshead Bay: heypaul has brought the area down considerably and is planning on demolishing a few buildings as soon as possible (to finish his plans of building a spur from the Brighton Line leading directing into his living room).
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Are you looking to move there?
If your main concern is avoiding being a crime victim, then I suggest you do what all the tourists do-
Stay in Midtown and get to your hotel by nightfall.
There's a chance of being a crime victim in New Dorp or Windsor Terrace just like there's a chance of getting mugged in Brownsville or Washington Heights.
Use your judgment:
-Tourists who get in trouble more often than not bring it on themselves. Don't flash money or valuables in public.
-There's little to no reason for a tourist to end up in Alphabet City unless they're visiting someone. If you don't have to be there DON'T GO.
-I've traversed most of Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens by myself and beyond the usual loon who stares at you on the subway, have never ever encountered any problems because I use my judgement.
Stay in well-lit, populated areas. Don't go to any residential areas even if it's in an area you might consider safe.
-Manhattan is generally safe during the day and since most of the tourist attactions are there anyway, again problems should be few to nil.
Though not a native New Yorker, I've been there enough on more than enough occasions to get a good feel for it.
Take into account that though you may come from a large city, New York it more than twice as large as the nation's next biggest city(L.A.) so with more people come the potential for more problems.
I don't know if you've been to NYC before(it sounds like you haven't) but it's not a town for the faint hearted or the faint footed(no offense).
The pace is fast, the streets are busy and the city is HUGE. Again, unless you plan to explore some ghettos in depth and at night, you have little to worry about beyond the possibility of a pickpocket.
What is the safety factor of the areas involved in walking around all of Manhattan? I walked up the west side once and this time I want to walk down from Marble Hill (I intend to complete this trip on Thursday).
I don't want any tourist-type advice about the Upper Manhattan poverty belt, or the Lower East Side one either. I've walked down the heart of the LES on more than one occassion with little fear.
I went to NYC (from Baltimore) numerous times between 1984 and 1990, and again from 1995-98. I've NEVER had or seen any problems, despite riding the trains at all hours and even getting lost once or twice. Once, while killing time waiting for a 6 am NJ Transit bus, I rode the night A train (Lefferts) and the old Rockaway "round-robin" shuttle (Euclid-Rock Pk-Far Rock-Euclid). At 4 am. In FEBRUARY. No trouble, except for the frigid Jamaica air. (But it seemed even colder later that day outside Springsteen's train station in Freehold NJ.) Inbound, I dozed off somewhere east of downtown B'klyn and woke up as the A was pulling into 125 Street...now THAT scared me. And I missed my bus; there was another at 7 am.
My one visit to Harlem was at 9 in the morning on a Saturday...I figured the "bangers" would be sleeping it off at their cribs. (BTW, I'm black, so don't start crying about "profiling".)
Fortunately, I haven't been in the subways right after school (in the early-to-mid afternoon I'm usually shopping).
As the guy said, the crooks are everywhere in the city. Folks with money don't go to "those" neighborhoods, unless they're monumentally naive or they're crooks themselves. (Or, they're looking for drugs.) Thugs go where the money is. Keep your wits about you, and at least pretend you know where you're going. (In Aug. 1984, my 3rd trip, I got a pocket subway map at 370 Jay St., and a 1980 wall map from the Transit Museum. I memorized both in short order.)
BTW, FYI NYC does not have "bangers." That's a term associated with Los Angeles street gangs ("gang bangers"). We DO have street punks, but not what LA has in terms of the Crips and the Bloods engaged in drive-by-shootings and other acts of urban terrorism. Harlem is a far cry from that kind of activity.
Doug aka BMTman
Bangers, hoods, thugs...they're all street criminals, gang affiliation or not. And even the "independents" aspire to gang-like behavior. Remember the "wolf packs" who went "wilding" throughout the city some years ago?
While I'm on the subject: Let me say something about so-called "wilding". That term came out of the horrible Central Park rape case; the punks who were busted supposedly sang rap songs in the lock-up, one of them about "wilding". Well, it so happens that at the time of the incident, there was a popular rap record by Tone-Loc called "Wild Thing". I'll bet the house that those fiends were singing that rap. Given the diction of a typical teen, combined with the accoustics of your average jail cell, people thought they were saying "wilding" instead of "wild thing", and the NY Post, as always, took that idea and ran it to death.
What year was this and what kind of gang activity do we have in NYC today?
I think the Central Park case was in 1990, or thereabouts. As Doug said, the "organized" street gangs aren't as pervasive in NY as in, say, Los Angeles. But there's Crip and Blood wannabes all over the place.
The largest gangs in NYC presently are the Latin Kings and the Netas. These two groups are associated with each other. I'm not sure of the ethic make up of the Netas but the Latin Kings are primarily of Puerto Rican decent but Colombians, Dominicans, and Portugeuse have been found in the gang. Today their leader, King Tony is in a state penitentiary somewhere in Upstate New York, some the Kings are not as strong as they once were. Another thing that you should be aware of is that they don't thing of themselves or refer to themselves as a gang, but rather as a "family" or an "organization". I've seen members and have heard them say that the Latin Kings are a positive influence in the community and are no longer about killing and commiting crimes against people like they once were. I find this hard to believe and think it's BS but I've also been told that the Latin Kings who still commit crimes are under the influence of "fake leaders" who are basically wanna-be Latin Kings.
Some traits of the Kings include black and yellow beaded necklaces. These sometimes indicate rank if they are in a certain pattern. Others wear gold and black beads. These beads are considered "sacred" and anyone who attempts to grab or touch these necklaces on the necks of the members may be subjected from anything to a mild beat down to being slashed. There is also a sect known as the Latin Queens which is the female part of the gang. Sometimes in largely Latino neighborhoods you'll see members dressed in only black, yellow with maybe khaki colored pants. With some gangs, like the Netas whose colors are black, white, and red, the red beads symbolize bloodshed.
Gang graffiti can be found on walls from these gangs. Particularly the crown which is offten found on the walls of buildings. Also such terms as TOS (terminate on site) or BOS (beat on sight) are used. There is a certain hand signal which forms a crown-like shape which is used among members. Other terms related to the Latin Kings are "Amor Del Rey" ("Love of the King" or simply LK. Some members are so "hi-tech" that they even have an on-line signal for the Latin Kings like this one: \^/\^/. You may also be surprised to know that there has actually been a database found on-line listing all the names and addresses of Latin King members. I find this all quite appalling.
BX55, you posted a very interesting -- albeit offtopic -- message.
As far as the Latin Kings go, yes, I have heard that they are supposedly more into "helping" their neighborhoods than causing trouble. This remains to be seen.
I believe the LK's were (up to very recently) involved in some nasty clashes with Mexican or Nicaraguain-based street gangs in Sunset Park and Long Island (there are Latin gangs out in Suburbia, BTW).
If my memory serves me well, I recall that one of the major network news anchors/reporters in NYC was a former Latin King. His name escapes me at the moment...
Doug aka BMTman
Here we go again.''Wilding'' was a term used by people who didn't understand the slang.''Wylin'' is the term we used,and it was usally done we went to parties in a non violent manner.It was done in fun, a good time at a nice club. It was the newspapers,word of mouth from ''others''that turned something like having a good time into beating up joggers. Insted of calling it what it really was[mugging and/or rap] it was twisted into something that all young people did. thank you
Well, you're in luck. I used to hang around that area sometimes. It's mostly Latino and a lot of immigrants are up there. There is a lot of drug dealing that goes on up there (Marble Hill, that is) but things are pretty paceful. There is a lot of green over there- a lot of parks over that way. Some of it is bustling traffic and business along the main drags like 207th Street going across the bridge to the Bronx. It's basically Inwood you are talking about. I felt strange the first time I went there because, like Washington Heights, I was an English-speaking White. Although I do speak Spanish, most of the people spoke Spanish there and were talking about me in Spanish surprised to see a White person walking leisurely through there.
I'm assuming you're male and White if you are asking about this area. Am I right or wrong? All I can say is that you my gget a few stares but I wouldn't call this area unsafe during the day. I never really was there at night to tell you something about it. You should be fine.
Actually, I've been there before. This time I want to stay on the east side along St. Nicholas which is why I ask.
I intend to start at Marble Hill because I'd have enough energy to climb all the hills. By the time I get tired in Midtown I won't care because it's Midtown and I was there on numerous occasions.
Have a nice walk. You will have no problems. Random street violence is very rare up here. I've seen more problems in the traditional yuppie areas like the LES and the West Side. Upper Manhattan is largely hispanic and peaceful. The drug wars of the early '90s are over, thank goodness.
I'd suggest walking down Broadway, since it's really the main street running up and down the island, and that's where the most action is. Here are some cool things to check out both on and off Bway while strolling downtown:
1. At around 207th st head west into Inwood. Inwood is a nice residential area built during the Art Deco period, so there are lots of pretty apartment buildings in the area. Also, you can visit Inwood Hill park, which has lots of baseball fields where the locals play ball. The park also holds the last remain bit of virgin forest in Manhattan. Finally, enjoy the vista along Seaman Ave, which runs along the park.
Two Inwood Hill Park URLs
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esallyduffy/index.html
http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/park.html
2. Check out the Dyckman farmhouse on Bway at 204th st.
http://www.preserve.org/hht/dyckman/farmhouse.htm
3. Go to the Cloisters and visit Fort Tyon Park. From the north, the park start at Dykman St, just west of Bway. Take a hike through the trails up to the top of the park. (The trails are safe -- the worst you'll see on the trails are some Dominican teen-agers smoking pot away from their parents.) At the top are the Heather Garden and an excellent overlook over the Palisades and the Hudson.
Do the park tour at http://www.brorson.org/neighborhood/ParkTour.html
4. Visit Manhattan's highest point in Bennett Park. Bennett Park is on Fort Washington Ave (west of Bway) at about 184th St. The surrounding neighborhood is also very cool, and completely safe.
Highest point URL: http://www.americasroof.com/nyc-manhattan.html
Fort Tryon Neighborhood URL: http://www.brorson.org/neighborhood.NeighborhoodTour.html
5. Visit the Audubon Ballroom, Bway and 165th. This was the ballroom where Malcom X was shot. Nowadays, it is a research center owned by Columbia. The university has gutted the building, but left the facade for historical reasons.
http://www.jhpokorny.com/audubon/audubon.html
6. Go to the Morris-Jumel Mansion and the Sylvan Terrace. This area is a tiny enclave just east of St. Nicolas Ave at roughly 162nd st. The mansion is a federal style mansion built before the revolution on a hill. The surrounding block contains brownstones, most of which are now fixed up. Sylvan terrace is an entire block of wood frame row houses. The entire area is a historic district.
http://www.nychistory.org/MJMan.htm
http://www.preserve.org/hht/morris/jumel.htm
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/COBBLESTONES/Jumel/jumel4.html
6. Walk by the Church of the Intercession, Trinity Church graveyard, as well as the Hispanic Society of America, Bway and 155th.
http://www.jhpokorny.com/crchint/crchint.html
http://www.hispanicsociety.org/
Finally, two safety notes:
1. A lot of skanky looking people hang out in front of the GW Bridge bus terminal (Bway and 178th). You will be fine walking by, but it's not a nice place to hang out, unless you enjoy associating with addicts and derelicts.
2. The neighborhood goes downhill as you walk southward from 181st St until 125th St, where Columbia begins to assert its influence. As an uptown rule, the area north of 181st St is fine. Also, the areas west of Bway are better than east of Bway. South of 155th I would stick to Bway. Use the usual city wariness and you will have no problems.
Enjoy your tour!
I've already been along Broadway, I want to take a different route. How safe is St. Nicholas?
St. Nicholas is an ok area, even during night.
Thanks.
What about High Bridge Park?
High Bridge park is more secluded. i hafve only been there once or twice. I suppose you'll be all right. By the way, if you don't know, the actual bridge (High Bridge) is closed off with a gate and barbed wire but reopens once a year on High Bridge Day.
There's a stairway I have seen from the Major Deegan (just north of Yankee Stadium), which empties out onto Sedgwick Avenue - it has fascinated me for years, but I am not sure how safe it is to explore.
When did they rename University Avenue for the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.?
Wayne
Is it one of those two names in the sign deals like West 106th Street/Duke Ellington Boulevard? Or did they just drop the old name (Like Powell Boulevard/7th Avenue, Douglass Boulevard/8th Avenue, Malcolm X Boulevard/Reid Avenue, Thomas Boyland Street/Hopkinson Avenue, Mother Gaston Boulevard/Stone Street)
Yeah, they use the two-name thing. It's still University but also less commonly called Martin Luther King Blvd. Like 116th in El Barrio (East Harlem) is called "Luis Muniz Marin Blvd" and 125th St. is also MLK Blvd. It just is to honor someone.
In Jersey City, Henderson Street became the FULL Luis Muñoz Marin Boulevard, Henderson is gone.
Yeah, but the HBLR taped announcements and live operators insist on pronouncing it Mar (as in marriage) in, accenting the first syllable instead of the Spanish Mar (as in to mar an object) in, accenting the second. While I'm on the subject, despite the signs it's JohnsTon Avenue, not Johnson and RandolPH Avenue, not Randolf.
In the case of Stone Avenue in Brooklyn, it appears to have been wholly renamed Mother Gaston Boulevard. Ditto for Guy R. Brewer Boulevard in Queens, formerly New York Boulevard and Malcolm X Blvd in Brooklyn, formerly Reid Avenue.
Many of the others carry dual designations.
I'd like to take an opportunity to correct an earlier post in which I referred to Stebbins Avenue in the Bronx as Louis Nine Avenue, I should have referred to it as Rev. James Polite Avenue. Louis Nine Avenue is a block or two over.
wayne
And it's not Louis Nine Avenue, it's Louis Nine Boulevard.
> By the way, if you don't know, the
> actual bridge (High Bridge) is closed
> off with a gate and barbed wire but
> reopens once a year on High Bridge Day.
A walk across High Bridge would be cool. When is High Bridge Day?
High Bridge Day was several months ago. Hmmm...it had to be in October? Maybe November. Late fall or winter. It had been raining that day, so I'd say between October-December. I'm not really sure but if I find out, I'll let you know.
Any pictures of the bridge out there that we can pull up on the web? I know I should remember it, but for the life of me I can't picture it in my mind right now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you have any idea when it was closed? I remember making the uphill trek from the 170th St 4 station to check the bridge out after I saw it in an old movie, looking down from University/MLK, and seeing that foreboding black metal armor plating across the span far below. Ultimate bummer!
It was closed sometime in the mid 60s, I believe. It was falling apart and attracted much crime. It stayed that way for years. It was rebuilt some years ago but never reopened to the public except, on the previously mentioned, High Bridge Day. It is used frequently in films and you can see a representation of it every night behind David Letterman. I am not certain but I believe some kind of private money was involved in its restoration. Hence, its present status.
btw: My mother has a picture of me in a carriage at 2 years old on the bridge. The year was 1957.
Peace,
ANDEE
You grew up in Highbridge too? Seems I found a similar picture of myself in mom's archives; unfortunately about l945--guess I was about 2 in the photo. Sometime in l963or l964 I attempted to cross that bridge.. got around the barrier at the Manhattan end but then couldn't get off in the Bronx, had to walk back. I was still young enough to not think of who could have been out there. Born in 43 I lived at l285 Merriam until 65. Nice view of the NYC mainline and Putnam Division..and steam in my earliest years.
Here is some info I found on the web:
http://www.echonyc.com/~transalt/bridges/high.html
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dpr/html/historicsignsbronxhighbridgepk.html
Thank you for the info
Peace,
ANDEE
I also remember going around the barricades with my cousin, that bridge was literally falling apart at that time. I lived at 1210 Nelson Ave. Until I was 9 (1964). That's when my parents joined the mass exodus to the suburbs. I did however spend much time in Highbridge as I still had cousins there and I would bicycle from Northern NJ over the GW frequently. I moved back to the Bronx (Bedford Park) in 1980 (much to my parents chagrin) and have been here since. You can take the boy out of the Bronx but, you can't take the Bronx out of the boy.
Peace,
ANDEE
Good story Andee. How was that part of the Bronx back then and how has it recorvered?
That area of the Bronx was spared the massive levels of destruction that occured further south. All of the buildings that my family (aunts, uncles, grandparents) lived in are still standing and occupied, a number of buildings were abandoned but, all in all the area today looks much like it did in 1964.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, check out this website:
of the Br
WNYC-"Perfume of the Bronx"- http://www.wnyc.org/newsinfo/nyny/hake083198.html
Good to get a little more detail from you. My family remained on Merriam until late 73 when they finally moved to Throggs Neck, I was already in Cypress hills B'klyn 5 years by then. I did a lot of bike riding in my high school years...from the Bronx to the outlands: to a friend in Dumont, NJ, escapades to West Haverstraw via 9W, Harmon on 9 etc. Now that I've felt safe in the Bronx [visiting from NoDak]there's a piece in my heart; but for almost 20 years I felt they could have wiped it off the map.Did you manage to ride any Low-V's on Jerome? They last ran there in 63.
I rode on more than a few Lo-V's, always used to play with that big wheel in the trailer cars (some kind of brake?) use to drive my grandmother nuts. I remember the mix of old and new on the "4" train when they first started getting thier R-12s. My cousin and I used to sneak rides on the train and try to go to Pelham Bay. I say try to go to Pelham Bay because we always ended up at Woodlawn. Didn't figure out that we had to go down to 149/GC and change to an uptown 6 until years later. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Glad you got to ride some of "my" trains. You'd never get a Pelham train at l49/GC though... have to go to l25/Lex!.I'm sure that was a hasty typo though. Guess I'll move on to other things, good to hear from a Highbridge man. By the way I always admired Bedford Park. A nice mix of turn of the century thru 30's buildings, some smaller apartment buildings, private homes, etc.See ya down the line someplace!
>>>l49/GC though... have to go to l25/Lex!.I'm sure that was a hasty typo though.<<<
Guess I still can't get to Pelham Bay!! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Somewhere at a site that is devoted to bicycle use in NYC I seem to recall reading that High Bridge may be reopened for bicycle use. I think the money has been committed or is being raised.
> I've already been along Broadway, I want to take a
> different route. How safe is St. Nicholas?
St. Nicholas is a bike route. I've taken it between Central Park and Washington Heights several times when out riding. I've never had a problem.
Also, if you're a Yankees fan or fan of baseball history in general, you can visit the site of home plate in Hilltop Park, the Yankees' first home.
There's a plaque located in the garden of Columbia-Pres. Hospital that is open to the public. This garden is located at the NE corner of Ft. Washington and 165th (just one block west of B'way). As mentioned, a home-plate shaped plaque was dedicated in 1993 on the exact spot where Ty Cobb, Frank 'Home Run' Baker, 'Wee' Willie Keeler ("hit 'em where they ain't") and a host of other Hall-of-Famers batted.
A piece of history worth taking 5 minutes to see.
Bklyn Dodger, you left out an important historical baseball site for tourists: the Jackie Robinson Apartments. I believe there is a plaque on the side of the building where homeplate would have been.
I heard that the building's management office will occasionally have Japanese tourist stopping by asking where's the Brooklyn Dodger's ballpark (thinking that Ebbett's Field is still standing!).
Doug aka BMTman
Yes, most certainly a place to visit...Dodger Hall of Fame is nearby if I understand correctly. (Across the street?)
I was limiting my advice to Upper Manhattan, although I likely should have added the Polo Grounds...
My point was if anyone is going to tour Washington Heights/Upper B'way, they might as well stray one block for a little treat that hardly gets any attention.
Your second paragraph is pretty funny!
Bensonhurst is largely Russian as well.
[re safety advice]
[Use your judgment:
-There's little to no reason for a tourist to end up in Alphabet City unless they're visiting someone. If you don't have to be there DON'T GO.]
Not really true anymore. The western part of Alphabet City, especially around Tompkins Square Park, has a number of trendy restaurants and bars, and the park itself is quite nice. Only Avenue D is still what I'd describe as sketchy.
[-I've traversed most of Manhattan, Brooklyn and Queens by myself and beyond the usual loon who stares at you on the subway, have never ever encountered any problems because I use my judgement.]
My experience too. Judgment really is the key. If you get a feeling that an area might be less than safe, there's probably a good reason for that - even if it's not something that you can quite put your finger on - and you should follow your instinct.
[Stay in well-lit, populated areas. Don't go to any residential areas even if it's in an area you might consider safe.]
I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of that. Residential areas usually are safe, except after dark in the very worst 'hoods.
[Residential areas usually are safe, except after dark in the very worst 'hoods.]
That's right. Actually, my experience has been that it's the semi-industrial areas that tend to be crime-havens (buildings and streets tend to be deserted outside of 9-5 on weekdays and totally void of activity on weekends). Also, those areas tend to have very little police presence, hence the tendancy for criminal behavior to thrive (muggings, prostitution, drugs).
Doug aka BMTman
If your main concern is avoiding being a crime victim, then I suggest you do what all the tourists do-
Stay in Midtown and get to your hotel by nightfall.
Where do you get this from? The MAJORITY of the city is safe even after dark.
There's a chance of being a crime victim in New Dorp or Windsor Terrace just like there's a chance of getting mugged in Brownsville or Washington Heights
Why do you compare these so-called "safe" neigborhoods to Washington Heights? I go all the time to visit an elderly couple who I'm friends with. I usually vist them at night and not ONCE have I been harassed over there. If my 75 year old friend and I can stand on the corner of 168th Street at 8:00 PM and converse with his neighbors, what makes it different for you? I'm an "outsider" to the neighborhood clearly. Washington Heights is mostly Dominican with a few Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Colombians, and Blacks thrown but that is apparently about enough to earn it a bad name. I remember the incident after the killing of a drug dealer about a decade ago but once is not "always" or "never". I am White and no one has EVER given me a problem there. In fact, I find the people there to be pretty friendly in comparison to those of the nicer parts of Brooklyn, Queens, and the city.
What's wrong with Alphabet City? If you choose to hang around the projects by yourself at 11 PM at night, yeah you may encounter some drug dealers/buyers/users. While I don't advise you to go there at 11 PM, there is absolutely nothing wrong with hanging out at Tompkins Square Park, getting a bite to eat, or look at the shops around there diuring the afternoon. In fact, Alphabet City is a community for many talented artists and musicians. It is quite a bit like Greenwich Village...only the people there don't have money.
It's funny. Even tourists like yourself come back to your hometown with a certain misperception on reality. I thought it was just native New Yorkers but I guess I was wrong.
Maybe I should practice what I preach and not running my mouth off without current information.
As noted, I don't live in NYC so I haven't quite the knowledge of neighborhood particulars as natives do, of course.
If your main concern is avoiding being a crime victim, then I suggest you do what all the tourists do-
Stay in Midtown and get to your hotel by nightfall.
I tell this to friends and family who go up there for a couple of reasons:
A)Getting lost in unfamiliar terrain-could you imagine an out-of-towner getting lost somewhere in the middle of Queens or another area with an unusual layout? Easier to navigate midtown than Kew Gardens if you're not from there.
B)There may be safe neighborhoods there, true, but the point is Corona isn't a tourist attraction. The Empire State Building is. If Joe Blow from Kansas has a problem on the 86th floor observatory, he'd have an easier time getting it taken care of than if he were in the middle of some unfamiliar area.
C)In my case, I can't convince anyone NYC is safe outside midtown. That's their misperception, not mine. Therefore, I usually advise them not to leave Manhattan at all unless they have reliable means of transport to and around the area and have a definate destination.
There's a chance of being a crime victim in New Dorp or Windsor Terrace just like there's a chance of getting mugged in Brownsville or Washington Heights
Admittedly, I know little of Washington Heights so maybe I should have changed it. But I was simply stating two areas that, I think you'd agree, a lot of people wouldn't think of as the safest in the world for whatever reason, especially out-of-towners. I have no interest in neighborhood bashing.
Same deal with Alphabet City. I had no idea it'd gone through a renaissance. Maybe I'll stop by on my next visit and see what's what.
Yes, I know I don't live in New York so maybe I shouldn't be telling people what neighborhoods to avoid but from my own experience with travelling the city, mostly alone, this is what I've gathered.
> There's a chance of being a crime victim in New Dorp or Windsor
> Terrace just like there's a chance of getting mugged
> in Brownsville or Washington Heights
>
> Admittedly, I know little of Washington Heights so maybe I should
> have changed it. But I was simply stating two areas that, I
> think you'd agree, a lot of people wouldn't think of as the safest
> in the world for whatever reason, especially out-of-towners. I
> have no interest in neighborhood bashing.
>
As observed elsewhere in these threads, Washington Heights is undergoing something of a renaissance, particularly north of 181st St. The nabe got a bad image during the '80s and '90s because of the drug wars, which were fought between gangs of Dominican teen-agers living in WH. There was a lot of inter-gang violence associated with the drug trade. However, WH is largely residential, and random crimes like muggings are rarer in residential neighborhoods.
>Same deal with Alphabet City. I had no idea it'd gone through a
>renaissance. Maybe I'll stop by on my next visit and see what's
>what.
Yup. Having known the LES during the '80, I am now always astonished to see 16 year old models hanging out on the street in front of trendy discos on Avenue C at 11:30pm. Things do change . . . .
> Yes, I know I don't live in New York so maybe I shouldn't be
> telling people what neighborhoods to avoid but from my own
> experience with travelling the city, mostly alone, this is
> what I've gathered.
That's cool, but you should visit more often and see how things have changed.
The Lower East Side is in the project belt. It's possible to walk from the Brooklyn Bridge to 14th Street without leaving the grounds of the New York City Housing Authority, with the exception of a small gap between the Al Smith and Rutgers Houses.
[Why do you compare these so-called "safe" neigborhoods to Washington Heights? I go all the time to visit an elderly couple who I'm friends with. I usually vist them at night and not ONCE have I been harassed over there ... Washington Heights is mostly Dominican with a few Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Colombians, and Blacks thrown but that is apparently about enough to earn it a bad name.]
Washington Heights got a bad reputation in the 1980's largely on account of the drug trade. That, in turn, was in part an accident of geography; its proximity to the George Washington Bridge and other highways made it "convenient" for drug buyers from other areas. Things have calmed down in the past several years, and like parts of the Bronx, the neighborhood seems to be on the upswing. And the peaceful response to last summer's blackout - for whatever the reason; I'm not going to raise THAT issue again! - has helped rehabilitate its image.
"If your main concern is avoiding being a crime victim, then I suggest you do what all the tourists do-
Stay in Midtown and get to your hotel by nightfall. "
Midtown is only a small part of NYC. You'll see the stores you see in malls, and not the cultural diversity of NYC.
Chinatown doesn't get as much tourists as it used to because of this misleading advice.
In my opinion most of Chinatown west of Bowery street is fairly safe, Canal street is very busy. Actually I sometimes feel safer in Chinatown because in general you don't have too many groups of teenagers around causing trouble, in Midtown, there are lots of teens around once school lets out.
By staying in Midtown and avoiding the city once the sun sets, a tourist will miss out on all the "different stuff" NYC has to offer.
Personally midtown is not my favorite part of Manhattan because that is where all the yuppies and wealthy people walk right past the homeless, and that is depressing. My favorite parts of the city are culturally diverse ones, especially those with an Asian accent like Chinatown, Koreatown (which is by midtown), Sunset Park, and Flushing.
If anybody knows of more "asian spots" let me know!
Bensonhurst has gotten a large Asian population in recent years. Take the N train to 18th Avenue and you'll get a flavor of the area.
Doug aka BMTman
Broadway in Elmhurst, Queens. You can get there by taking the "R" to Elmhurst Avenue or Grand Ave-Newtown.
I like Midtown because the yuppies and wealthy people walk by the homeless. Wherever people give money to them, I find it depressing.
And I assume Bowery Street intersects with [Hyooston] Street, right?
My apartment, definitely
Are all work trains IRT width or are there different trains for the A and B divisions?
Most, if not all, work equipment is IRT dimensions. Don't know about that VacTrac train.
Peace,
ANDEE
The Vacuum Train is IRT Width . I took pictures of the train at Westchester Yard 2 years ago, and is on this site in the yards section. Virtually all work equipment is IRT Width, except for the R-30 Gel Car.
-Stef
My good night started when the Pres. here called to offer me a ticket to the game. A bunch of us joined her for a very enjoyable game.
But before the game I went to the Willets Point subway station and to my surprise the MVMs were dispensing two of the new Mets MC (Rey Ordonez & Mike Hampton) ... (I now have all four with the MasterCard logo) and to top it off the Station Agent, who was outside the booth, was handing out Jackie Robinson MC Holders. Jackie is seated in a train from the Standard era circa 1947.
Mr t__:^)
Excuse me Thurston, but you left our a very important point. Did the Mets win the game???>???. BTW, are you still going to be able to get to New York on August 16-17? I still would like to touch base with some of my railfan buddies on this website.
You bet they did! They kicked those birds in the tail!
Oh, don't be surprised if I'm not around to post this weekend. I've got tickets to all 3 games....
-Hank (Let's Go Mets!)
Pepsi has a deal you can't beat with a stick right now ...
Show up at Bleacher gate two hours early with an empty Pepsi bottle or can and get in for F-R-E-E. Now if you arrive via your Fun Pass you'll also avoid the $7 parking, but will miss out on tail gating.
Mr t__:^)
How early does one need to get there? Does the section fill up quickly/sell out?
One of the collegues with me that night said he only saw about a hundred in line for seats, i.e. everyone in line was going to get in. So call them as you may be able to get their early (I heard two hours) get tickets, then tail gate. Sounds like a cheep date for the family.
Mr t__:^)
O-R-I-O-L-E-S=ORIOLES!!!
Mets can't even be nice and schedule a doubleheader for the rainout. The O's had to come back here and fly back again because 53 hotel rooms in the same hotel were not available and sleeping on the 7 train wasn't an option.
The poor, poor Orioles. Why should the Mets cater to a bunch of losers like that. The Astros had to come into Dodger stadium for a make-up game and then take a BUS to San Diego after the game. I didn't hear any of the Astros complaining. That's the way it is.
Ah Fred there's no need for that. In fact that's why I didn't comment on the score, although by my comment that it was a very enjoyable evening you might of guessed that they kicked ass. The Orioles only had two problems: Mets out hit them & they probally should have changed the pitcher sooner, although that didn't seem to matter, i.e. they continued to hit even with a new opposing pitcher ... it was just their night & I enjoyed it. The fact that I got the last two of the set of four Mets MCs was just iceing on the cake.
Mr t__:^)
Mets vs Orioles - the 1969 World Series all over again. I remember it well.
How about the Dodgers earlier this season? From Montreal to Atlanta (or something) via Shea! And 5 games in row rained out for Boston, 4 of them against Cleaveland. They made one up on Thursday, (Cleveland was between Cincinatti and Chicago Cubs, I think) and have 2 double-headers in 2 days in September(?)!
-Hank
HEY! They came back and said the commute back to Baltimore was "...quicker then the bus to the hotel Tuesday."
It pisses me off that they didn't decide to call the game until 7:30. It poured all freaking day, they should have called that game around 4.
-Hank
Hank: I'm with you in spirit, and I'm told two of those games will be televised out here. You can bet I'll be watching that tube. And I'm glad the Mets won that game. Going to a Mets game on the #7 is a big thrill, but winning the game makes it complete.
Well, Friday's game was a 12-2 Mets win, and Saturday's game (and I've got a wicked sunburn!) was a 13-5 loss. On the bright side, the current trade rumor is several AA players to Chicago for SOSA! Imagine the draw he'd be in this city, with the massive dominican population???
Anyhow, look for me on TV Sunday night, the ESPN broadcast. I'll be in upper tier, sec 20, row C, seats 17-19.
-Hank
-Hank
The Rocky Mountain News even mentioned the 4 train when Piazza's grand slam was mentioned. He hit it to dead center, which is a lot easier to do now than the olden days of Death Valley. Mantle hit a few shots to dead center in the old ballpark.
As Joe Torre was quoted in the Daily News, re Mike Piazza: "There's not a lot of guys who could hit a ball to the deepest part of this ballpark and flip their bat 'cause they know it's gone."
-Hank
Yeah...the 2000 Orioles (my home team) are playing like the 1962 Mets. If only they'd get rid of that stupid, overpaid third baseman...
Hey, he was the sum total of their offense Thursday, wasn't he? Couple homers, couple RBI...
Besides, how do you tell a hall-of-fame player it's time to retire. It's not just the streak, it's 3000 hits, 400HR, 8 or so gold gloves....
-HAnk
I believe it was he who countered the Mets opening two home runs with one of his own in the game I saw. I also had the good fortune to be at a game when the Straw man's average was 000. The new rookie in Left Field was .667 made a error but redeamed himself with a nice hit.
Mr t__:^)
[... New York on August 16-17 ? ...]
Yes Fred I still have you pencilled in for a Field Trip "To the Beaches of Rock & Long", but notice that you can't get there via the Sea Beach line :-(
For me this will end up being a very long way home, as I will leave you when I depart the LI Bus N15. You'll be able to make your way back home either via LIRR at Long Beach to Atlantic Ave or N15 to N4 back to Jamaica then catch a subway. Either way it will be a long evening, but still a ride with many pleasant sights to experience.
Be sure to pack your FUN PASS and shorts as some of us are talking about a short volley ball game at Long Beach, or at least getting our feet wet just before sun set (I'm serious about this !)
Mr t__:^)
Seems to me that some of these proposals make sense, while others are total bs (like expecting passengers on a packed platform to stand behind the yellow line, LOL).
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-06-07/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-69168.asp
Rockland county residents may find this press release about the Spring Valley station interesting.
Just a quick question. How are the ties on an elevated structure tied to the steel structure? Thanks for any replies.
They're called "j" bolts; they hook under the top of the steel truss underneath (along the top of the "I")
--Mark
They also use "bridge clips", which is a bent metal clip that is bolted into the tie, clamping it to the girder.
These two replys are the main reason I've been a SubTalkers for a couple of years now ... always something to LEARN, thanks guys !
Mr t__:^)
I hear the R110B's are back in service. Do they run all day? or is it still the 9:56 out of 168th street, and the 11:15? or do they run all day??
Schedule:
9:56 out of 168th
11:33 out of Euclid Avenue
1:43 out of 168th
3:1? out of Euclid
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
the first of my latest 2 transit dreams was a few weeks ago, so I don't remember all the details. It involves me poking around the unseen parts of 30th St. station. After walking through old tunnels and caverns I found myself at North Phidelphia station. I was waiting there then an inbound NJT Atlantic City train ran through the station. As the NJT train went by w/o stopping I got on a PATH like train that had pulled up on the other side of the island platform. The train pulled out (the outside tracks had 3rd rail) and began to overtake the NJT train. As we slowly passed it we arrived at ZOO and the NJt train went along a diverging route. Suddenly the PATH train entered a tunnel, but we were still hi up. It was like 30th St and newark Penn have been combined and 30th St. now had an upper lever transit station. As the PATH train zigged and zagged through the attic of 30th St. I decided to get off. As I walked around I almost got hit by another PATH train comming around a bend in the 30th St. Attic. Things were a little dangerous in the Attic (which BTW looked like any underground subway tunnel w/ sodium vapour lighting and 10 foot radius curves.) I went through a littlke door and down a stairwell into the basement of 30th St. (below the train level). There I followed an underground cavern over to the Post Office. I went into the PO via a subterrainian entrance, but inside it looked like a big gymnasium and there were people in it practicing for a musical play. I quickly exited and then woke up.
Last night I had another dream. Recent;y I have started catching my eastbound PATCO trains at 12/13th so I can ride the BSL. Well I was at 12/13th and my friend was there with his friends from Hampshire college. Well like my friend jumped on the tracks and soon like 1/2 the people who were on the platform jumped on the tracks. I could see a train slowly comming and I told him to get back on the platform, but he kept telling me not to worry and how cool this would be. The 3rd rail was also pretty close to the passenges in that instead of being at track level it was almost at platform level. At one point a little girl reach down and touched it, recieving a little shock to her finger. She started to cry and her mother started yelling at her about touching the 3rd rail. Well anyway the train was going like 5 mph and as it entered the station I expected the driver to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting the 20 or so people who were cavorting on the tracks. Well to my surprise he didn't stop and ran over everyone and continued on through the station stop. After it got about 100 feet down the train ground to a halt and the driver and some passengers got out and started running back down the track to see what they had hit. Despite there having about 20 people on the track I only saw about 5 bodies laying in the drainage well. I guess they stuck to the front of the train or something.
Anyway, by this time the platform was getting pretty crowded because it was rush hour and the last eastbound train stopped and there were bodies fouling the eastbound track. However PATCO always looks out for its riders. They store trains on the W/B track from 12/13th to 15/16th. By the time I looked around to the W/B track (about 20 seconds of dream time) there was a driver in the first car of the storage line. It was a single unit Budd and it pulled out w/o any passengers. However in the car behind it there was another driver and he opened the doors and several hundred people cramed into the train. I got the spot infront of the railfan Storm door. We pulled out no more than 1 minute after aboot 20 people had been run over and I really have to give my dream PATCO credit for putting its passengers first (well the fiving ones anyway). Well i was rding home when suddenly my friend (who I saw get run over) was in the railfan window seat. I asked him how he did that, but he wouldn't tell me (I gathered it was some sort of illusion like a hologram or something). Anyway I got off at Westmont station which is odd because I live in haddonfield. I was forced to walk the rest of the way home. I had just made it to the haddonfield station (and was wondering why on earth I had gotten off at Westmont) when my cat started yeling through the window at someother car walking through our yard. That woke me up.
WOW...what strange dreams. I have similar wierd transit dreams.
The most recent one involved R-40 slants running on the 7 (Flushing) line. I was at the front window (I refuse to call it a r**lf**n window) expecting the train to rip off thge edge of all the platforms but, it never happened the ride was smmoth as silk! Go figure and, thanks for sharing.
Peace,
ANDEE
I am really beginning to get jealous of you guys having all of these great transit dreams.
Is it something that you eat or drink before you go to bed that does it?
You mean you've never had a dream in which you're on a train of gate cars on the Lexington Ave. el?:-)
I've had dreams of BMT standards, R-1/9s with drop-sash storm door windows, 4000-series Chicago L cars on the Concourse line, the list goes on and on. Not too many R-10 dreams, which is surprising.
Oh yes I have! I have even dreamed of living on the gate cars. I used to daydream of having two gate cars on a piece of property, set end to end (so that I could play gateman). When I was 13 I drew up a floor plan to convert two cars into a home. I have dreamed of Standards, Triplexes, and even your beloved R-10's. I have not ridden on the subways in almost 40 years, so I guess that is why the dreams stopped.
Whew! You had me worried there for a moment.:-) I'm sure that if you were to ride on the subway again, the dreams just might return.
Do you guys wake up after these dreams and find that your pajamas are wet and sticky? :-)
A few odd dreams I have had:
1. Redbird running on elevated tracks 20 stories in the air over 98st and 64rd (near Queens blvd). The tracks were just that, tracks. No bridge or trestle or el structure of any kind. I was 7 at the time.
2. I have only ridden on an R-10 once in my entire life, and I was 3 at the time. Only way I can even know for sure is because it was on the C(C?) and the way the seats were arranged. Yet, at age 10, I had a dream where I was on a stalled R-10 and had a perfectly accurate view of the car (roll sign style, fans, seating arrangement). But, the strange thing is I had not seen a picture of an R-10, or even remembered these details from my one actual ride. (I still can barely remember the ride). Yet the dream was perfectly clear.
That's because you DO remember it, otherwise it would never be in the dream. Only you are not able to access it consciously. Everything you've ever known (except for that lost via cell death or severe head injury) is in your subconscious.
I rode on a low v & then a hi v & even a bmt Q type car all operational back in 1955 1956 1957 58
the oldest i was ever was 6 or seven & we rode the R -1 thru R-9s bmt bs and d s as well......
RODE THE RAILFAN WINDOW ALL THE WAY EVERY TIME ..........
I rode on the R-10s dozens of times when they dominated the A line, yet seldom have dreams about them. And they're very near and dear to me!
I had a dream the other night which involved the R-32s and the West End. Instead of being relatively straight, as it is along Stillwell Ave., 86th St., and New Utrecht, it snaked its way along much the same as Chicago's elevated lines. And to top it off, it had express service! There were four-car express trains with two R-32s and two R-42s, both pre-GOH, coupled together, while solid 10-car trains of GOH R-32s provided local service. Just as I was getting ready to board, I realized I left my Mets jacket on the platform, and by the time I retrieved it, the doors were closing. Someone was holding one set open, and the conductor opened up again, but I realized I wouldn't make it and decided to wait for the next train.
I get that feeling in my dreams to - I want to run, but I can't! There's a train waiting with its doors open and I'm trying to run for it, but it's a huge effort and I'm stuck!
Recent;y I have been switching to the BSL at 15th St.so I can catch Patco at 12/13th. I noticed some interesting things.
First, MFL guage is 5'2" and BSl is 4'8.5", but the BSL cars are clearly wider than the MFL cars despite having the smaller guage.
Second what are those little T's on some signals for. They are always lit with an incandesant bulb so I don't think they are an active signal.
Third does the BSL have some sort of cab signaling or ATC? I noticed destinctive cab signal equipment at a bllock boundary the other day.
Fourth: Why does the BSL smell more like urine than the MFL.
Fifth: i still don't know how the trip arm system works. It only activates right after the last car passes, not b4 or at the next block. They are also worked by complessed air and they it activated you can hear the air beinf let out.
The MFSE was built first to IRT/Paris Metro-style tunnel widths but used wide gauge to match the streetcars in Philadelphia. The BSS was built with BMT/IND width to hold more people but realized they should use standard gauge. The PATCO line from 15th to downtown Camden was part of the BSS, and so has standard gauge, too.
Why does the BSS smell worse? Vine Street is the traditional homeless section, so many of them treat the BSS as their home away from no home.
Is the urine smell *really* the result of random homeless using the subway system as their toilet? Are there really enough winos constantly peeing all over the place to cause the *whole* system to stink? I've wondered about this in NYC too.
I guessing, but isn't it more likely that vermin, standing water mixing with ancient garbage, and the fact that subways share the under-ground realm of the city with sewer systems, which may not be airtight, have more to do with the aroma than human "activity?"
I think the reason for the smell, especially around the City Hall area, is the maze of concourses and poor drainage associated with this. The concourse gets closed nightly, so the homeless can't live there any more, and the years of P has probably taken its toll as well. I was told by folks who tried cleaning the concourse after the years of neglect that it just isn't that easy, and in some places it may have even penetrated into the concrete to some extent.
From my own observations, the concourse smells a lot better (and a lot less pungent from urine) than a few years ago. The air is still stale due to the poor ventilation, but maybe there's a solution for that coming along.
Out of curiousity which stations stink the most?
I think W4th and 34th street on the IND, as well as Times Square on the 7, have a strong smell of urine.
Also with all the standing water isn't the subways ideal places for mosquito breeding? If so why hasn't the city attacked there in their "war on West Nile"?
Also with all the standing water isn't the subways ideal places for mosquito breeding? If so why hasn't the city attacked there in their "war on West Nile"?
They can't get helecopters into the tunnels. :·}
Seriously, My global studies teacher two years ago said that the black plague started because of situations in the street similar to that of the subway trackway. People threw their droppings and garbage in a trench in the middle of the street. It sat there, stagnant water collected and formed as a breeding ground for pathogens. Rats ate at it, one got sick and spread it to the others, who spread it to the population. Garbage, rats, stagnant water, are all present in that little trench between the rails. All we need is some of that human waste you find near the end of the platforms at some stations to fall in there and you have a recipie for disaster.
Can't they get a "spraying train" to spray the tunnels? It's amazing how the city thinks they have problems under control when they really don't, they are missing the point BIG TIME by not spraying the subways.
They feel what they can't see can't hurt them. They probably haven't seen a mosquito down there, so they think the threat doesn't exist. Yet, I have been bitten by them several times while in the subway, so they are there. They probably breed in the unused and seldom used trackways, since the trains would disturb the eggs in the heavy-used areas.
06/10/2000
[They feel what they can't see can't hurt them. They probably haven't seen a mosquito down there, so they think the threat doesn't exist. Yet, I have been bitten by them several times while in the subway, so they are there. They probably breed in the unused and seldom used trackways, since the trains would disturb the eggs in the heavy-used areas.]
Never happen......the mosquitos will be savagely mugged by the cock roaches. This is New York !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
AFAIK, rats are carriers for the plague, that means they have the disease and are able to spread it to other species, but don't suffer from it. Just like the mosquitoes and West Nile virus. Or Typhoid Mary and typhus.
Some day, I intend to work on a pathogen that all mammals will be a carrier for, but will lead to sterility in mosquitoes. Hopefully the menace can become extinct and we don't need to worry about carcinogenic pesticides like malathion. But that's just a dream, and I'm sure the kooky environmentalists will be talking about how mosquitoes are great.
Is the urine smell *really* the result of random homeless using the subway system as their toilet? Are there really enough winos constantly peeing all over the place to cause the *whole* system to stink? I've wondered about this in NYC too.
Yes. In my last trip to NYC, I witnessed *TWO* homeless people urinating on platforms, at different stations, in one night.
In the past few months I've noticed a real change in the downtown stations, especially 11th St and City Hall(BSS).
I used to avoid 11th St and the concourse connecting it to Suburban Station because of the piquant stench of urine, disinfectant and McDonalds fries as well as the dimness of the station. But recently, both problems have been greatly corrected much to my surprise.
Both lines do have particular odors.
The El, particularly when the Almond Joys were still running(they're missed), had a semi-sweet/musky smell in the subway stations as well as the urine/Lysol/Supersize we're familiar with.
The BSS has a musky, wet, underground smell in some parts. I've never noticed a strong smell of urine except on the BRS.
BTW, are those new cashier booths being installed at 15th St(MFL) and City Hall(BSS)?
At Roosevelt ave, Jamaica bound, midday weekend a guy urinated into the pile of garbage at the end of the platform. I had the privilige of watching the stream go into the pile and trickle down to track level.
Yuck! Lately the subways have been so smelly! The IND lines seem to stink the worst in general, for some reason. Perhaps because the stations are large and homeless people stink up the place at night.
I saw a guy urinating at a bus stop on Sanford avenue in Flushing while on the N21 heading towards Main street.
Seriously though, the stations do stink. They should use some deodorizer in there.
For some reason, the IRT seems to not smell as much as IND/BMT.
There's a certain sweet smell at the 59th street lower level where the 4/5 stops, it seems to be present in deep stations, mainly on the IRT.
Times Square of course is a huge exception, that station stinks and is so hot all the time.
Not only do subway stations such as W4th (both levels) and 34th street
stink from urine, there are other bad smells (like raw sewage) that is present at this and other parts of the system.
For some reason, underground stations on the 7 don't smell too bad, except for Times Square. I think the urine stench at Times Square comes from the 8th avenue passageway, lots of homeless pee there.
And the murky liquid at the base of the trackbed, I don't even want to know what that is. This liquid is particularly bad on both 6th and 8th avenue IND stations, also rats are most numerous there, especially at Lexington (E,F). It's funny that while the IND may newer than alot of other lines in the system, I've observed that the stations in general on the IND stink the most and has the biggest rat and trackbed ooze problems. Any clues why?
I believe the IRT was built with watertight tunnels and stations. I never have had a 'surprise' land on my head while standing on an IRT platform, and rarely with the BMT as well. But on an IND platform, you might as well bring an umbrella. As for the rats, I haven't seen too many on the IRT, but have seen many in the Archer Ave extension! The line's barely 10 years old, and already they have found homes there.
Here's something you probably wouldn't expect: There is a spot in the Manhattan bound tunnel between Sutphin/Archer and Jamaica Van Wyck which drips a lot 24/7, rain or shine, even during droughts. I'm hoping its a leak in the water table, not the sewage system. I puposly don't change cars in that area for that reason.
The BMT lines do seem in better shape than the IND. I rarely see water, rats, or smell urine in stations on the BMT Broadway line.
The way 6th avenue has been stinking, perhaps running the B, D, or Q Broadway express is a welcome thought.
I'd ride the BMT Broadway line more if there were expresses. I notice the tunnel lighting is very good on that line, but very poor on 6th avenue.
I have seen alot of water leaks in the archer avenue extension. They also seem particularly bad in the 53rd street tube, and the train's headlights shine off the water below the tracks when I'm at the front window of an R32 E train. I also noticed that alot of tunnel lights are out in the 53rd street tubes, in the eastern portion of both tubes.
I wonder why they didn't waterproof the whole subway. Chambers street on the BMT Broad street line (J,M,Z) is in bad shape though. It's a nice station with the high ceiling and all, such a shame it hasn't
been fixed up.
THe subway station I hate the most though is Lexington avenue on the E,F. There are many rats on the tracks there, with lots of "trackbed ooze" and garbage, it's hot, and stinks of raw sewage and urine. Not to mention the station looks horrible.
I remember at Christopher St. on the PATH, a guy urinated off the
end of the platform, onto the tracks. At that point, there is a piece of uncovered third rail next to the platform. He was lucky that time.
Even the railfans are guilty here. I recall an R30 trip several years ago which took a jaunt up and down the Franklin Shuttle. Many 'fans' left the train for a photo runby at Dean St but also took the opportunity to let something else golden run... Disgusting!
Second what are those little T's on some signals for. They are always lit with an incandesant bulb so I don't think
they are an active signal.
Fifth: i still don't know how the trip arm system works. It only activates right after the last car passes, not b4 or
at the next block. They are also worked by complessed air and they it activated you can hear the air beinf let out.
Hopefully someone more familiar with the signal system down
there can give an authoritative answer. As I recall, signalling
is similar to NYCT. The illuminated T would indicate a timed
signal, and the stop arms should only be up when the associated
signal is red.
While I have to confess some ignorance of the Phila signals, I believe the T (grade time) signals and trip arms work the same way as on NYCT.
I think they have something to do with interlockings because I usually see them around interlockings, but I also recal seeing what look like normal block signals with them. I do not think they are timed signals because A) most of them are not near a grade and B) the lit T is not a signal than it is a fixed sign. The grade signals on the MFL have a lunar white aspect, but the 'T' signals don't seem to do anything special.
There are often thread about system expansion in NYC but not often for other cities, especially Philadelphia.
Suppose you had the authority to have new lines built in this city. Where would you send them? What streets would they run under?
I guess you've forgetten. This is NYCsubway.org . That being said, how about extending the Buffalo subway from the UB South Campus station to the UB North Campus and have the same free fare structure between the two campus' as they have in the downtown area.
As a UB alum, I vote YES! But who will pay? Let's face it, there will never be a cost benefit analysis that could support the expansion of the Buffalo subway to Amherst. Even the original was absolutely pure pork that would never have happened if Jack Kemp was not then a powerful Congressman from metro Buffalo. Just think of how much better that 600 million (in 1970's dollars) would have been spent on a 2nd Avenue subway that would have literally been used by millions WEEKLY!! I dont know the ridership of the Buffalo system, but you can be sure that it is a very small fraction of what a new 2nd Avenue line would have.
I also went to UB and wondered how different life there would have been with a subway connection to Amherst rather than those crappy Blue Bird buses. I seem to recall that the original plans called for the full subway to Amherst (which would have made a LOT more sense than what got built) but the NIMBY forces in tony Amherst wouldn't have it.
The reason that the subway was not built to Amherst had everything to do with the lack of money to build it. I suspect that it would cost at least 100 million to build it as a trolley along Millersport Highway (which is perhaps a 6 mile distance I seem to recall), and a large multiple of that sum to build it as a subway. There simply is not money of that scale available locally in metro Buffalo for a transit project that would serve relatively few people. I suspect that some in Amherst might oppose the project, but most probably would accept it.
(I suspect that it would cost at least 100 million to build it as a trolley along Millersport Highway (which is perhaps a 6 mile distance I seem to recall), and a large multiple of that sum to build it as a subway.)
I don't think rail transit makes much sense in a city as spread out and shrinking as Buffalo. But if you are going to do it, I'd think there are enough abandoned rail lines in Buffalo to get you just about anywhere.
Yes, I'm aware of the name of the site but the NYC subway isn't the only one that gets talked about on this board. I simply put a question out for fodder.
The DOT has released the contract drawings for the north side of the Manhattan Bridge. As part of the contract, all of the steel under the tracks on the suspended spans is getting replaced: floorbeams, stringers, bracing, etc. There's also a significant amount of reconstruction work being done on the upper roadway and on the trusses.
Skimming over the contract documents, I didn't see a time frame set for completion.
DOT's suggested schedule:
Close North Tracks : July 2001-January 2004
Close South Tracks (Weekends only): April-October 2003
Looking at the Brooklin bus map, it looks like the York St "F" station is right under the bridge tracks. Could they build a xfer station for the bridge line there and for how much?
Arti
They'd need a STATION on the bridge first.
-Hank
It's not exactly right under the bridge. You can see it from the bridge but it's about a block away and at that point the bridge is already about 10 stories high.
Plus the grade from the approaches to the bridge towers is 3.1%, and its as high as 5.2% in the tunnel approaches.
(DOT's suggested schedule:
Close North Tracks : July 2001-January 2004 )
considering the south side mess it should probably read
Close North Tracks: July 2001-January 2014
06/08/2000
[Close South Tracks (Weekends only): April-October 2003]
Why would they want to close the south side tracks on the above dates? Shouldn't all the reconstruction of the south tracks be finished by then?
Bill "Newkirk"
I don't see how they can get away with closing both sides of the MB.
Chaos and confusion will result.
Maybe but they closed the Williamsburg bridge for longer than that and they had a worse time then the Manhattan Bridge users would have because they could at least still use the tunnel from DeKalb or Pacific Street.
It would be nice to see the Sea Beach going over the Manny B again instead of that rotten route it now has in the bowels of lower Manhattan. However, I'm not holding my breath until it happens. That repair of the bridge has to be the most arduous engineering feat in modern annals. It seems to have taken eons to complete it, and it is still not complete. What gives?
The bridge could be fixed a lot sooner if they were able to close the whole thing for a year or so, but that isn't possible given the amount of traffic it carries. Also, the bridge seems to tear itself apart from the rail loadings, not to mention the road salt that finds it's way up there in the winter.
That bridge does not carry significant traffic. I ride the D train everyday during rush hour and countless time I cross the entire bridge without seeing a single car and when I do see cars they wiz right by. That bridge should be rail only. All trucks should be forced to use the West Side Highway to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
What about HAZMAT trucks?
How about the Brooklyn Br., or the Williamsburg?
Williamsburg can work, although I think trucks are banned from the outer roadways due to width clearances around the towers, and the inner roadways don't have sufficient height clearance.
The Brooklyn obviously won't work, unless you have a truck that's less than 11'1"
And weighs less than the 3(?) ton load limit.
And you've obviously never seen the upper level during the morning rush.
It was designed poorly from the get-go. Specifically, placing the subway tracks on either side, instead of in the middle, has had a lot to do with it, what with all the resultant flexing over the years.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge hopefully will reopen in the year 2003. By that time the The "N" and "Q" trains will be shifted to the south side tracks and run as the "Broadway" express once again rather than the routes they take at the present time.
BMTJeff
The switch will undoubtedly occur. However when it does, the north side will close. The N will remain in it's tunnel.
That piece of news is one that I would rather not have heard. I think that is disgusting. The Sea Beach belongs on the Manny B, not in the same tunnel with the 4th Avenue local.
It will soon return!!!!!!!!
never mind
Again, I wil believe it when I see it. But I will be elated when it does happen. Let the Brighton and West End be diverted into the bowels of Manhattan. It's their turn anyway.
Jeff, Old Buddy, I will believe that when I see it happen. Every year it seems the date is pushed back. Did anyone ever think that if they would have put the tracks in the middle of the bridge instead of the outer edges, these problems wouldn't have existed?
Let's just say hindsight is 20/20 and leave it at that.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
Is seems that if the engineers used their brains properly that they would have placed the subway tracks in the middle if the bridge deck rather than the side. Each time a train runs over the Manhattan Bridge the deck on the side of the bridge that the train is running on drops by about two feet at the center of the span.
BMTJeff
It's natural for a bridge to deflect under a load like that. I'm not sure that 2ft is unreasonable, since the span is 1500ft. The center of the Verrazano changes elevation by as much as 12ft due to temperature variations.
Can we be so sure that the Astoria line people would be happy with that? If I understood correctly, they want their Broadway local. Thus, I don't think it is certain that the N would become again Broadway exp., at least not in both directions at once.
Sounds like a real mess. No 6th avenue bridge trains is going to inconvenience alot of people and congest the Broadway Line.
What they really could use is a Rutgers-Dekalb connection. What happened to that anyway?
If they do put B and D through Montague street they'd better loosen those GT's and increase speeds through the tunnel, or there's going to be major bottlenecks.
My Ideas for changing MB Service is
B 205th- WTC, 6Ave
D 205th- CI, 6Ave, Culver EXP
J parsons archer-CI, Nassau Express
N Astoria- CI, 7thAve/seabeach EXP
Q 179th-CI, 7th AVE EXP, Brighton LCL
V Parsons archer-parsons archer,loop,Queens blvd, Quensbr,6ave,grand,nassau, Eastern BMT
I like that part about the Sea Beach EXPRESS. It would take a guy with the name of Lincoln to come up with what seems to be a good idea.
Is that your first or last name? BTW what does WTC stand for?
WTC = World Trade Center
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even the express track on the Kingsbridge line is more useful than the ones on the Sea Beach. Hell, even the "express" tracks on the Centre Street line are.
Firstname, WTC=World Trade Center
You're forgetting the Brighton EXPRESS.
And what would be local on the Culver or Sea Beach?
Ok,
D-Culver EXP
F-Culver Local
M-Seabeach local,RushHours Only
N-Seabeach express Rushhours,Local Other Times
Also Z, Skip stop, with M on seabeach
OK, so then what exactly was done on the north side back in 1986-88?
(OK, so then what exactly was done on the north side back in 1986-88?)
Probably the same thing. It sounds like every 12-13 years half the bridge cracks apart. If the city happens to have a couple of hundred million lying around, it takes three years to rebuilt it.
If the south side is finished in 2001, that implies its good until 2013. Plenty of time for the last batch of Archie Bunkers and 1960s liberals to cash in and move out of the city. Heck, the Vallone or Green administration would have been over for four years by then!
Why don't the just build a replacement tunnel for the $#@%&$@#@$ subway trains!!!
Sorry to sound like Salamm, but watching the city pour more $$$ into this money pit infuriates me.
I agree. Unfortunately, they've gone past the point of no return in terms of pouring dinero into that bridge. Unless it collapses or is miraculously fixed for good, it will remain in a continuous state of rebuilding.
I'm sure that the DOT would much appreciate the removal of the tracks from the bridge as well, nearly doubling it's capacity (and overwhelming Canal Street with traffic).
Thankfully, we're seeing some of the lessons learned in NYC applied elsewhere: the Tappan Zee bridge, one of the twin Carquinez bridges in California, and the eastern portion of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay bridge will be replaced rather than rehabilitated.
(I'm sure that the DOT would much appreciate the removal of the tracks from the bridge as well, nearly doubling it's capacity
(and overwhelming Canal Street with traffic)).
If it were up to me, not only would the trains be removed from the bridge into a new tunnel/connection, but the trucks as well, in a new vehicular tunnel from the BQE in the vincinity of Kent/Wythe (toll plaza in the Navy Yard) to South Street and the southbound FDR viaduct. That would solve the Canal St problem for trucks, and the threat of a service loss for trains. But it would cost money.
I seem to be the only one who wants to see the Manhattan Bridge used for trains, while the rest of you want a new tunnel built. What I like about the Manny B is the scenery you can view when crossing it. Another tunnel adds nothing to the aesthetics (ws?) of the subway. From what I'm hearing, though, it looks like those of you who want a new tunnel might win out because it seems to taking a long time to complete the work on the bridge.
(From what I'm hearing, though, it looks like those of you who want a new tunnel might win out because it seems to taking a long time to complete the work on the bridge.)
My guess is the winner will be trains removed from the bridge with no replacement tunnel. A disaster, in other words.
How about a new bridge for the trains only? I like the view of the East river from the bridge. I specifically take the Q, D->S->C route to the transit museum because of the bridge. Otherwise, might as well take the F. Anyway, aren't bridges cheaper than tunnels?
Suspension, the best type of bridge for crossing the East River, is not very rail friendly. The Manhattan is a suspension bridge.
As for cable-stayed (suspension without main cables, ropes extend to towers), I don't know of any cable-stayed rail bridges.
Bridges might be cheaper, but think of land acquisition: You'd need to buy new land for a new bridge, which will cost you more than what you'll get by selling off the land for the current bridge or you can recycle the land and keep the bridge closed for a decade (read: century) as it's demolished and replaced.
I believe that there's a cable stayed bridge in Vancouver that carries a transit line. Also, the Tagus River ( or Ponte de 25 April) bridge in Portugal was recently rehabilitated to carry a rail line.
[If it were up to me, not only would the trains be removed from the bridge into a new tunnel/connection, but the trucks as well, in a
new vehicular tunnel from the BQE in the vincinity of Kent/Wythe (toll plaza in the Navy Yard) to South Street and the southbound FDR viaduct. That would solve the Canal St problem for trucks, and the threat of a service loss for trains. But it would cost money.]
As the old expression goes, Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. In this case, Sometimes you have to spend money to make life easier for everyone.
New bridge ... new tunnel ... IMO, these just aren't going to happen unless the State and City of New York pony up the bucks. I can't even imagine how much a new Manhattan Bridge or replacement tunnels would cost - $20 billion? $30 billion? Thanks to the 'Big Dig' fiasco in Boston, the Federal government isn't going to pay the lion's share of any new urban roadway projects in the Northeast for a long, long time.
Transit buffs, don't kid yourselves. If a new Manhattan Bridge project ever did get underway, the highway lobbies would work long and hard to keep any and all trains off the new bridge. A new subway tunnel ... don't worry, that'll happen just as soon as the Second Avenue line is done. Let's face it ... today's half-a-loaf subway capacity on the Bridge is better than nothing.
- Jim (RailBus)
Until that bridge falls down and goes kersplash into the East River...
I didn't know the Tappan Zee Bridge was slated for replacement.
(I didn't know the Tappan Zee Bridge was slated for replacement.)
Yes, the part below the water line has supposedly rotted out. How, I don't know. They figure since it will cost almost as much to fix as replace, might as well replace it.
Some believe it's just a scheme to increase the number of lanes.
The bridge rests on piles driven into the silt on the river bed. In most cases you measure pile resistance by #of hammer blows that it takes to drive the pile one foot. Supposedly on the Tappan Zee, the measured it in feet per blow.
It sounds as if those piles were driven into quicksand....
Unfortunately, the effort to replace the east span the SF-Oakland bay bridge is not a good development for transit. It is being pushed by a regional planning comission (MTC) which is partial to freeways and BART, and hostile to urban transit (MUNI, AC Transit, etc) and Caltrain. The "replacement" east span has been designed so as to be structurally incapable of ever carrying any sort of rail line. Of the design options and bids which were submitted, those allowed into the final cut were all ones whose backers had financial ties to commission members.
As many of you may know, the current bridge once carried the Key System trains, before they were junked by the infamous National City Lines in the '50s, and some folks out here have made a crusade to attempt restoration of some similar service. (By the way- someone mentioned the views from the MannyB; imagine what a visual treat this ride must have been, especially in the days when SF was a working port and not the tourist city/Disneyland-for-the-rich place it is now.)
I have also heard it said that the MTC is terrified of any competent standard rail or rapid transit passenger line being operated in the Bay area which might expose the 500 million/mile construction costs of BART for the farcical corruption they are. They have conducted studies (we all know about studies...) giving an inflated $3 bil cost for restoration of service, because they refused to consider taking off-peak auto lanes on the actual bridge, and instead came up with all manner of ridiculous cantilevered & underhanging trackway proposals.
MTC and the Governor have plowed ahead w/ this despite opposition from SF & Oakland Mayors (who want restored service) and from UC engineering professors who have submitted papers claiming that the selected design is structurally unsound. (Which makes sense since it was *intended* to be too weak to carry trains). Now some folks are questioning how "damaged" the existing east span really is.
Bottom line- REPLACE the MannyB! FIX the bay bridge!
or, "It's not what you do, it's the -way- you do it"
PS. Thank god I'm moving back to NY (I know, you never thought you'd hear someone say that). I may have been born in CA, but I was *not* meant to live here. I *will* get to ride the redbirds again before they go :)
dpmt94: Traitor! Just kidding. New York is a great place to live if you have some money and can choose where to live. Even though I'm an in the bone Californian after living out here for 45-plus years, I used to spend a little of my time when I was in New York looking at places and telling myself that I could live here if I had to. There are still some great areas in the city and Staten Island (yes that's the city, too), but the better neighborhoods are expensive and there don't seem to be any nice "bargain" neighborhoods, but I could be wrong.
dpmt94: Traitor! Just kidding. New York is a great place to live if you have some money and can choose where to live. Even though I'm an in the bone Californian after living out here for 45-plus years, I used to spend a little of my time when I was in New York looking at places and telling myself that I could live here if I had to. There are still some great areas in the city and Staten Island (yes that's the city, too), but the better neighborhoods are expensive and there doesn't seem to be any nice "bargain" neighborhoods, but I could be wrong.
Hope they hire those guys who did the Willy B...
-Dave
Well, they actually got smart and offered incentives to finish early. $1 million for finishing a month early will make most contractors get thier butts in gear. Also, the $100,000 a day in liqudated damages that the DOT has in the contract should provide adequate incentive for performance.
This actually became fact on this past Wednesday when we were officially informed that we had to plan for Split service on the D line for the next 4 years beginning July 2001.
On another note, 63rd Street connection will open 8/01 to revenue service. Unfortunately the R-143s are very much behind schedule and will not make it in time. Look for some car shifting to make up the difference.
Any info on what lines will run through 63rd street?
The very last word I got was that it will be trains!!!
All kidding aside, it's been widely assumed that the Q will be
extended.
(All kidding aside, it's been widely assumed that the Q will be
extended).
I agree. The real question is, will anything else happen?
1) If the north side tracks are closed, will they run the Q in two sections (perhaps calling it the FF in Queens), or will they run it through using the switch at 63rd and Lex?
2) Will they run the F through 63rd St as well, eliminating the bottleneck at the swicth at 53rd St and 6th Avenue, as TrainDude suggested some years ago? That being the case, they would presumably reduce the number of Fs in Queens to the number coming the other way from Brooklyn (14), and increase the number of Es to provide more service through 53rd St (to 16 from 12).
3) Will they have express trains bypass 74th Roosevelt during rush hours, to keep "inner" Queens riders on the local and spread the load?
[Will they run the F through 63rd St as well, eliminating the bottleneck at the swicth at 53rd St and 6th Avenue, as TrainDude suggested some years ago? ]
But that would create 2 bottlenecks QB exp (F) and local (Q) merging to enter the 63rd st connector. If there are any problems either other local (R) or exp. (E) would get delayed. Another merger would be from either form Broadway or 6th Ave exp (Q) and 6th Ave local (F) to 63rd St tunnel.
I think that the best way to increase capacity on QB exp is to run F only some of them via Culver express.
Arti
Broadway's merger would be to the unused express tracks, and if the S. side of the Bridge is done the trains would never have to merge with anything in Manhattan, they'll stay on the express for 63st and local for 59/60st.
I mean the merger to the 63rd St tunnel from Bway and 6th Ave local or 6th Ave local and express.
Arti
I don't see how you can add any more trains to the E during the rush. They run every 4 to 5 minutes apart as it is, and many times leave the terminal a minute or two late because of rampant door holding and they also have to cross over in front of each other due to the diamond crossovers at Parsons/Archer & WTC. With the crowds at Lex/53rd, I don't see how you can survive with less sevice if you take F trains away. With this in mind, Train Dude says 14 more 600' trains would be needed, but that will be somewhat less since the G would be cut back at Court Sq. freeing a few trainsets, and possibly 2 cars cut off each remaining train if the G gets cut back to 4 600'cars per trains so OPTO can be provided thereby saving the TA more money.
While cutting G, why not to cut the other end to Hoyt-Schermerhorn so that they won't interfere with F.
Arti
No can turn the G at Hoyt! No switch there. First place to turn is south (after the F comes in) of Bergen St. Build a diamond crossover to relay south of Hoyt past the curve but before Bergen St? In order to be compatable with the rest of the system, I'm not sure if there is enough room for 600' of train plus the lead footage required for the switch itself. Plus you would interrupt service 24/7 for awhile while this is being built.
[I'm not sure if there is enough room for 600' of train plus the lead footage required for the switch itself. ]
There would be no need to runn 600' G trains anyway. While the construction happens run one track shuttles b/w Bedford and Hoyt.
But you want the possibility
Then build the diamond xover before the station.
Arti
Building the diamond before Hoyt would be very confusing and inconvenient for the passengers using Hoyt since the G does not have an island platform there. Under your senario, for a G rider wishing to get off at Hoyt to go to Manhattan, on one trip all they will have to do is change for the A/C across the platform, possibly the next day they will have to cross over to the other side. And they won't know which side they will be arriving on even with announcements since half don't listen and the other half don't understand English. Coming back on the A/C from Manhattan, the same problem in reverse. If 2 G's are there, which one leaves first? Finally, it may be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act if elevators aren't installed for them to cross over to the other side.
It's less of a hassle than xfering at Court Sq. At the same time as G is relatively infrequent maybe there could be only 1 train at the terminus at one time?
Arti
A 4 car R46 is considered one unit. You must have a 600' relay position. If a 4 car R46 has, say, a brake pipe rupture, you will need another 4 car R46 to get it out of the way. You cannot sectionalise a 4 car R46. Hence you must have a 600' relay position.
The focus should be the opposite. Extend the G out to Church Avenue except during the midnight hours and run the F express between Church & Bergen.
The people at Carroll St. would never let that happen!
Plus, at this time, the expess tracks between Bergen and Smith/9th
are unusable due a fire in the tower some time ago.
Yup, that service wouldn't be so good. Ten to 12 minute wait for a G train, then perhaps another 5 minute wait for the F or A/C, to get into Manhattan.
The people of Carroll Street would never let it happen? And they are who exactly that they get the only vote? And how would you get them to sit still for cutting the g service back to Hoyt? That's like saying that the Steinway Street merchants won't sit still for cutting back the g service.
[And how would you get them to sit still for cutting the g service back to Hoyt? That's like saying that the Steinway Street merchants won't sit still for cutting back the g service. ]
The G is useless for those people. The best thing would be to somehow get G to Manhattan.
Arti
Arti, how are you aware that the good people of Carroll St. do not use the G line? People will use what is available. All my plan does is change Carroll Street (18/7) into a local stop. People would board a local and switch for an express like most people in Queens do. The only difference is it would not be on the same platform. However, people bought into that with the termination of the G at Court Sq. Ever take that hike to the E or F? My contention is that from an operational standpoint there are more pros than cons to extending the G south.
[how are you aware that the good people of Carroll St. do not use the G line? ]
Highly doubt that many of them need to go to Queens.
Arti
Maybe they should...
Get G to Manhattan? Well why not? Solving the bane of the G's existence could be done while easing the horrible gridlock on 34th Street in Manhattan and bringing subway service directly to the Javits Center. Build a new crosstown tunnel under 34th Street, then under the East River and connecting into the existing line at Greenpoint.
While the Court Square and Van Alst stops in Queens would be abandoned, the new connection would make the G a very useful train. Direct service to the Empire State Building, Macy's, the Manhattan Mall, Penn Station and Madison Square Garden would result. It might even be faster for Carroll Gardens residents than taking the F train, which could be made express without any problems. Might be one of the wisest investments the MTA could make. Then again, the MTA hasn't made many wise investments...
Another idea: Why not build a connection between the G line, north of Court Square, and the 63rd St tunnel? Simply run the G into Manhattan that way...
These are not O gauge trains we are talking about. You do not just build a tunnel into another tunnel. In 1986, the 63rd Street connection was open to 21st Street. It will take 15 years to go the remaining roughly 1300 yards to Queens blvd.
Awwww, foo! They can do better than THAT! Just give them some incentives!
wayne
Well..instead of being sarcastic and snide...why don't you suggest a better idea?
Your sarcastic & snide is my humor. I suggest that you not be so thin skinned. Do you disagree with the facts as stated?
Sure...tunnels are expensive and the government (in)action is slow.
However...are you always rude to people whose ideas you disagree with?
If "snideness and sarcasm" are your idea of "humor" (sic), I suggest that you not quit your day job, if you have one. Nobody will mistake you for Groucho Marx.
...Or Don Knotts.
Oh..By the way, I was just trying to be "funny" in the last two sentences.
Hey, cool it - the original comment reads as slightly ironic, if anything; "sarcastic and snide" is a much too strong characterization. If Steve (aka Train Dude) is being sarcastic (which he is at times), there is no mistaking it for anything but sarcasm. The point of his original post was that, while it may be great fun to say "let's build such-and-such connection", the actual logistics are quite complicated, so nothing is likely to be done any time soon.
subfan
Well, then..I guess that negates any reason to suggest any original ideas. After all, do you honestly believe that public policy is going to take ANY suggestions of railfans into consideration? Do you think anyone associated with the transit agencies actually cares if people prefer Redbirds over 142's, or railfan windows?
It's the easiest thing in the world to shoot down someone else's ideas. It takes no imagination or insight. And the original post that you were refering to is as about "ironic" as Alanis Morisette's "rain on your wedding day", which not surprsingly, is not ironic.
To be perfectly honest with you, you are 100% correct. The NYC Transit System has a Mission Statement. No where in that mission statement does it state that the NYCT will build interesting, rail-fan friendly routes. It does not state that the NYC Transit will run trains made up of equipment for the gratification of people who like redbirds, whitebirds, bluebirds or just standing at the rail-Fan window.
I was a railfan long before I came to work for the TA. In fact, I was a railfan before I started kindergarten. My job at the TA has allowed me to live out some of my fantasies, however, it has only been by coincidence or accident.
If you've followed some earlier threads related to MTH Subway cars, you might know that I've purchased several sets. I'm also constructing my first O gauge pike in over 30 years (hence, my reference to building in O gauge as it can be daunting).Hence I'll enjoy some of my train related fantasies. Others, here, shoot videos, some keep voluminous records or build websites while still others build parts of trains in their bedroom. The point is you may never maximize your pleasure or realize all your fantasies in the world or 1:1 scale.
If you want to propose welding extension plates onto threshhold plates of redbirds and using them on the BMT, that's fine. If you want to suggest building new and exciting routes that look like balls of spaghetti, that's equally fine. However, no one posts here with immunity from criticism. If your idea is silly, we, any of us or all of us, have a right to tell you so. I would expect nothing less if and when I post ideas others disagree with. Such is the risk we all take.
The NYC Transit System has a Mission Statement.
Might I presume that their mission is something different than to expeditiously transport people from where they are to where they wish to go, in comfort and safety, for the least possible cost?
I have it somewhere and will look up the exact wording. However, I'm sure Exxon's Mission Statement talks about producing Lowest Cost, Highest Quality petro-chemical products. And gasoline in NYC has reached $1.729 for regular.
[However, I'm sure Exxon's Mission Statement talks about producing Lowest Cost, Highest Quality petro-chemical products. And gasoline in NYC has reached $1.729 for regular.]
Could be worse. It's broken the $2 barrier in parts of the Midwest.
And we were wondering what this world was coming to when prices hit 50 cents per gallon in 1974, then $1 per gallon in 1979.
Also consider how muc hgas prices went up since 1979 and how much everything else went up since then.
There's an easy way to lower prices at the pump: Charge in liters.
$.45 cents for 87! I'm filling up!
I presumed that wasn't their mission because NYCT does not appear to be pursuing any of those objectives.
A true cynic to the end.....
I'm sure Exxon's Mission Statement talks about producing Lowest Cost, Highest Quality petro-chemical products.
Exxon's Mission Statement:
"Our mission is to provide quality petrochemical products and services in the most efficient and responsible manner to generate outstanding customer and shareholder value."
I'm sure this plays well in Alaska.
Hence, as I said, the Mission Statement does not always represent the true direction of organizational travel.
Actually, if NYCTA's mission WERE to transport people expeditiously and efficiently, the Professional Complainers Society (doing business as the Straphangers Campaign) would be deprived of its sole source of income, and would sue under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
[Then Janet Reno would order NYCTA to break up into three subway companies and a dozen or so bus companies.]
"I suggest that you not quit your day job, if you have one."
I just showed this line to my wife. She's in stitches - almost. She's been saying for the last 2 decades that I love my job so much I'd do it for free. Not exactly for free but rest assure that I intend to keep my job. Rest easy Groucho. Rest easy Don. Rodney, you keep looking over your shoulder.
I probably did over-react. Sorry...Mea Culpa, etc...
...Actually, you do have a pretty good sense of humor...
...I've been influenced to much by AOL chat rooms..
...Now....back to railfan Windows...
No harm - no foul
My thoughts exactly. I , if King, would go one better and allow for a connection to both the 60th street tunnel . Perhaps somewhere after the the "R" leaves the QB local tracks but before it joins with the Astoria line and down the tubes .
Now if this extension could run parallel long enough to allow a diamondand then continue to connect Via a switch to the 63rd tunnel, both tunnels could serve the QB line or the Crosstown local in the event of the next natural,infrastructral,human or political disaster.
The end result could mean possible Manhattan service for the area now requiring changes or transfers. Maybe even GENTRIFICATION Of the Industrial areas so close to Midtown.Ilike Train Dudes suggestions for the Rutgars tunnel too.
avid
The 63rd Street tunnel is definitely underused and certainly have extra trains running through there. But if the G train were to be extended up to Queensbridge it would be going further away from midtown Manhattan. And once it's on the Manhattan side, where would it go? Perhaps the F train could be rerouted to the 63rd St tunnel with the Q train. The Q would go down Broadway and the F would go down 6th Avenue.
With the F out of the 53rd Street Tunnel, the G (with more frequent service) could take its place and then across Manhattan. This way it would be closer to the heart of Manhattan and it could even serve the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museuem and the Circle Line. It would mean much less tunnel to build and the new service could start much sooner.
Better idea: keep Van Alst and Court Square, build it with a "Y" where it joins the existing line, one spur going north to Court Square and on to Queens, the other spur going south to Greenpoint. Put a one-track connector between the spurs somewhere to allow yard moves.
wayne
Or maybe: connect the 34th st tunnel to the 7. Convert the 7 to IND or at least BMT dimensions to give it much needed capacity. Then perhaps make the existing 7 line on 42nd St into a multi stop shuttle, with smaller stations and equipment, so it could do things like stop at the UN. Fun to kick around these ideas, isn't it?
Better yet convert the LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD tunnel for it :-)
Arti
[Extend the G out to Church Avenue except during the midnight hours]
What good would that do?
Arti
Extending G service to Church Avenue would make logistical sense in that it gives the G line 2 terminals. That's 2 sites where the Gs could be cleaned and two sites where bad order trains could be swapped. 2 Sites where crews could be relieved too. There is a storage yard south of Church Avenue that is now un-used. Currently, bad order trains are run light back from 4th avenue because a swap is not available. This can lead to a 10 - 20 minute hole in service. This would be eliminated. As for the F line, it'll cut off the 6 minutes of running time that was added when field shunting was removed.
...As for the F line, it'll cut off the 6 minutes of running time that was added when field shunting was removed.
Did they add additional trains to keep the same rush hour frequency to compensate for the longer running time?
Did they decrease the service level by either decreasing the train frequencey or extending the shoulder period?
I do recall NYCT announcements stating that the passengers would not notice any service degradation. Was that entirely accurate?
When the 6 minutes was added to the running time, coincidentally, the service went from 46 trains to 50 trains. I'm not sure how this works out mathematically.
From an incremental viewpoint, if one tries to maintain a 4 minute headway and the trip is 6 minutes longer then 2 additional trains are required in each direction. This results 2 minutes additional layover time which may cause congestion at the terminals.
From an economic viewpoint, let's put the cost for each extra train at $10 million ($1.25 million per car). That's $40 million for one line. The reason for removing field shunting was to guarantee that trains in emergency would stop within the proper distance without redesigning the signal system. However at approximately $100K per new signal installation and 800 feet between new signals that $40 million would buy 30 route miles worth of new signalling. It would appear that the costs might have been equivalent.
No surprise that you'll get no argument from me on that point. The field shunt mod was expedient - not efficient, in my opinion. It's just the long lead time for signal contracts (ala MTA) that made signal replacement a 30 year goal.
(As for the F line, it'll cut off the 6 minutes of running time that was added when field shunting was removed).
Still, those at local stops between Church and Jay would still be left with with a 10 to 12 mintue wait for the G, followed by a five to ten minute wait for the F, followed by perhaps another change of train after that. Bad enough G riders have it now.
It's tough to get anything approved. To make it seem "fair," you'd have to split the F at Church and give F local riders at least 8 tph of their own in addition to the G. You'd still have 14 tph at rush hour, although only 8 would go through to Manhattan. Riders beyond Church would sacrifice a longer wait for a faster ride.
[To make it seem "fair," you'd have to split the F at Church and give F local riders at least 8 tph of their own in addition to the G. You'd still have 14 tph at rush hour, although only 8 would go through to Manhattan. Riders beyond Church would sacrifice a longer wait for a faster ride.]
Makes no sense because if you do the math, the same travel time balances out! It would seem fair but to someone like myself who always looks at the statistics and did that math, it's not!
Sorry to burst that bubble!
Flxible Metro B #3511
The full potential of the 63rd Street line would never be fully realized by extending the Q train to Queens (as planned). My original plan (referred to earlier) was a bit more complex but would allow the 63rd St connection to make a real difference. Here is the plan briefly.
A) Add 8 trains to the F line. Alternate the service between 53rd Street and 63rd Street in both directions.
B) Add 6 trains to the R line. Likewise alternate the service through 63rd St and 60th Street to the B'Way Line.
C) The Q goes back to a B'Way express to 57 St. with no additional trains required.
The Logic:The F has a 12% increase in service. The R has approximately a 15% increase. However, the two bottlenecks, Queens Plaza and 53rd St & Lex each have a substantial decrease in traffic without reducing service on the lines. At the same time, 6th Avenue gets a break with only two express services instead of three. Finally, Broadway gets its express back.
Makes logistical sense, but not operational sense. People would continully get the 2 F and R routes confused. We must remember that the majority of subway riders are somewhat moronic.
Call one the FF and the other QF or one RR and the other QR.
Your plan is far too complicated for the average subway rider. The TA should be commended over the past few years for making things simpler, even though we train buffs would like things to be more interesting. My proposal is as follows (assumes 27 as the maximum number of trains per hour that can be handled per track and that 24/7 service is provided both via 53rd and via 63rd from 36th St. in Queens):
E 17 per hour (5 more than now, if the extras cannot be handled at Jamaica Center and WTC, then send those five out to 179th Street (local to Continental Av., then exp.) and on to Euclid. 18/7 exp. in Queens, 6/7 local in Queens.
Q 10 per hour, from Jamaica-179th to Brighton Beach/Coney Island, express in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn, via 63rd St. and Broadway/Brighton Express. (18/7)
F 10 per hour, from Continental, local in Queens and Manhattan. 24/7 via 63rd St.
R 10 per hour, from Continental, 18/7 via 60th St.
And, with north side of MB out:
T 10 per hour, from Continental, local from Queens to Manhattan, (West End) express from Brooklyn to Manhattan (in am, reverse in pm). 18/7
D 10 per hour, from 63rd Lex. to Coney Island, via Broadway exp., Brighton local
N as now.
B 205th./BP Blvd. to Grand St. 24/7
Diamond B 205th to 2nd Av. Houston, rush hours (exp. in Bronx)
A) Add 8 trains to the F line...
B) Add 6 trains to the R line...
The Logic:The F has a 12% increase in service. The R has approximately a 15% increase. However, the two bottlenecks, Queens Plaza and 53rd St & Lex each have a substantial decrease in traffic without reducing service on the lines. At the same time, 6th Avenue gets a break with only two express services instead of three. Finally, Broadway gets its express back.
Let's see there are currently 50 trains assigned to the F and 27 to the R. That's an equipment increase of 16% and 22% respectively. Your projected service increase is substantially less.
One small problem, a new bottleneck will emerge at 36st and 63rd /lex, though several small ones are way better than many big ones.
[One small problem, a new bottleneck will emerge at 36st and 63rd /lex, though several small ones are way better than many big ones. ]
I think that wouldn't be a small bottleneck but a big one especially when you have locals and expresses using the 63rd st line from QB.
Arti
That depends how many trains will be merging. 27/hour would likely cause a bottleneck. 20/hour would be much less apt to do so.
QB exp can't be 20 tph, it'll be 27 ideally 30.
Arti
If I understand correctly, QB exp. morning rush is at present E (12) + F (15) = 27 tph.
What I was attempting to say was that from August 2001 it would be feasible to run 20 tph through the 63rd St. connection without too much delay, 10 tph local (F) and 10 tph exp. (Q). The remaining 17 tph exp. would be E, so as not to do too badly for the 53rd St. loyalists. The extra Es would probably result in overloading at its termini, but it seems reasonable that the Hillside Av. spur and sending some beyond WTC (Euclid?) could take up the slack.
[The extra Es would probably result in overloading at its termini, but it seems reasonable that the Hillside Av. spur and sending some beyond WTC (Euclid?) could take up the slack. ]
I think that the Cranberry st tunnel is at capacity.
The goal should be to increase the tph in QB exp to 30. IMHO the only way to do it to have only one line to run on it. I'd propose F via 63rd St. with some trains shortrunnig to 2nd Ave. E would be local via 53rd St.
Arti
Points of information:
The QB Express has 30 tph in the peak direction, 18 F and 12 E.
The Cranberry Tunnel is NOT at capacity -- it gets perhaps 23-25 tph.
Now I have a question about the purported QB express/local bottleneck entering 63rd St. Has the connection been (sensibly) built so an entire train can sit between switch where the trains diverge from the QB line and the switch where the connection from the local and express tracks merge?
In other words, let's say an express and local train, both bound for 63rd St, arrive at the same time. If the express train had to wait for the local to enter the 63rd St connection, would it be obstructing the QB express track to 53rd St while waiting? Or could it pull completely out of the express track to let another express train pass behind it?
[The QB Express has 30 tph in the peak direction, 18 F and 12 E. ]
So they could run more if there was only one line running on it?
[Now I have a question about the purported QB express/local bottleneck entering 63rd St. Has the connection been (sensibly) built so an entire train can sit between switch where the trains diverge from the QB line and the switch where the connection from the local and express tracks merge? ]
I don't think so. That's based on me looking at the construction while on the train. Also in that case there has to be room for 8 tracks under QB.
Arti
Nice plan you have laid out, Train Dude. But what would make it better would be if express/local service could be restored to 179th Street, even if only for rush hours. Might there be a way this could be incorporated?
Everything, absolutley everything ...
Power lines for the third rail definitely.
I presume the split D would be like the previous closing:
205 to 34 via D and Stillwell to 34 via Broadway?
The Q to 21st via Broadway (till connection opens?) and B ends in Brooklyn?
Does anyone have a copy of this Railroad Atlas? I'm wondering if it is worth the $74.95 plus shipping. I am interested in a detailed, relatively up-to-date railroad atlas of the U.S. and Canada. I'd even love to see abandoned lines too, but that may be asking too much.
This site also has an Atlas of *just* Pennsylvania which I'd like to buy, but without seeing either of these things in my own hand, I'm reluctant to shell out the bucks. I wish they had one of NY State too. Anybody have this one, or can provide better recommendations?
Thx,
KP
[Does anyone have a copy of this Railroad Atlas? I'm wondering if it is worth the $74.95 plus shipping. I am interested in a detailed, relatively up-to-date railroad atlas of the U.S. and Canada. I'd even love to see abandoned lines too, but that may be asking too much.]
Rand McNally publishes a "Commercial Atlas of the United States" (that might not be its exact title) which, along with much else, has railroad maps that seem as detailed as those in the atlas you mentioned. I don't know how the Commercial Atlas compares price-wise to this one.
Another possibility is the Northeast volume of Steam Powered Video's Comprehensive Railroad Atlas of North America. Somewhat surprisingly published in Britain, this is an excellent series, showing both active and disused lines. The current edition of the Northeastern volume covers New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland, with base maps at a scale of 8 miles per inch and inserts of congested areas at 2 miles per inch. (An earlier version also included New England, which has now been combined with the Maritime Provinces in a separate volume.) SPV's ad in the current _Trains Magazine_ gives a list price of $24.95.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I personally rely on two:
The Steam-Powered Video's Comprehensive RR Atlas of North America (Surprisingly good in the macro sense, but some of the trivia gets lost. EG, the Jerome Park RR, Cedarhurst RR, some waterfront RRs are missing in New York).
I also like the DeLorme hiking maps. Since they cater to outdoors-types they often show long-abandoned railroads, and with surprising accuracy. I hiked a lot of the old O&W upstate using a DeLorme.
[The Steam-Powered Video's Comprehensive RR Atlas of North America (Surprisingly good in the macro sense, but some of the trivia gets lost. EG, the Jerome Park RR, Cedarhurst RR, some waterfront RRs are missing in New York).]
The Jerome Park RR?
The Jerome Park RR was a branch of the NYC & Harlem.
The junction was just north of Bronx Botanical Garden Station.
The line arched from that point across where Webster, Decatur, Hull, Perry and Bainbridge Anenues are now. Then continued ascross what was Mosholu creek then (now Mosholu Pkwy) to about 203rd St then to the terminal about where the Bedford Park station of the Jerome Ave line or a little further west.
Jerome park was a 19c race track. The park became the reservoir it is today as part of the NYC Acqueduct project of 1900.
Up until the 60's, a remnant of the junction remained as a freight siding just north of Mosholu Pkwy and the 52nd Police Station (built early 1900s).
The only reference I ever saw to the Jermme Park RR was in "The Coming of the NY and Harlem RR". Aerial views of the location point out some traces of the ROW (curved building lines).
Read the SI Advance story!
-Hank :)
LOL...Thank You!
Peace,
ANDEE
Good one Hank :) I gotta send that story to some people I know.
LOL That's funny! Except if you're the SUV owner.
wayne
06/08/2000
Why would the entire lines service be affected? Aren't there any turnbacks east of the accident scene where trains can be short turned and shuttle buses fill in the rest of the line?
Bill "Newkirk"
Theyturn back trains at 2 points, usually: Great Kills, and Huguenot. The SUV was at Huguenot, so trains could only get as far as Great Kills to turn around. The power section, IIRC, is Annadale to Huguenot. This precludes single-tracking to Annadale. Setting up shuttle buses for the SIR is a nightmare, and generally can't be done in less than 2 hours. Last time shuttle buses substituted regularly, that I can recall, was in the early 90's when the Eltingville platform was being lengthened. The pile driver they were using blocked both tracks while in operation.
Oh, and you mean west. SIR is eastbound to Tottenville, westbound to St. George.
-Hank
06/10/2000
[Oh, and you mean west. SIR is eastbound to Tottenville, westbound to St. George.]
As Salaam would say, ??????????!!!!!!
Please explain, my compass differs!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, your compass doesn't lie - but railroad logic isn't entirely logical either. Since SIR was part of the B&O, RR east ran across the North Shore line to St. George and on to Tottenville.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Shades of the movie "Running Scared" (loved that tunnel & L chase on CTA property .....)
--Mark
Yesterday's Rocky Mountain News carried an article about the resumption of testing this past Tuesday on the new light rail extension slated to open July 14. There is a photo of car 116 with "Test train" signs crossing the flyover/swapover where the line trades places with the BNSF freight tracks. So far, so good. There have been no clearance problems. I will be on hand for the opening, and you'll all get a firsthand report.
While driving home along Santa Fe Drive yesterday, I spotted a two-car test train cruising northbound over the flyover/swapover at Union Ave. Didn't catch the car numbers, though. I'm sure this will be the first of many such spottings between now and July 14.
I'm getting psyched about the opening!
Today at around 12 PM, I was in the Chambers St. station on the 8th ave line, and I saw a train pull in which looked unlike any other train I had seen before. I think it was an R-110B.
It was ruuning northbound on the C line.
I also noticed that as the train started, it was making a high-pitched buzzin noise not unlike the HBLR or new MBTA Red Line cars.
I also noticed that the train had not only a TO and a conductor, but also someone sitting in the cab at the back.
You overlooked a post. The following was posted by R142 Boi 2K
[Re: R110B scheduling (The Schedule)
Posted by R142 Boi 2K on Thu Jun 8 13:16:43 2000, in response to R110B scheduling, posted by F Train on Thu Jun 8 12:16:49 2000
Schedule:
9:56 out of 168th
11:33 out of Euclid Avenue
1:43 out of 168th
3:1? out of Euclid
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com]
I also noticed that as the train started, it was making a high-pitched buzzin noise not unlike the HBLR or new MBTA Red Line cars.
I've always been rather intrigued by the sounds made by the MBTA's new Red Line trains, particularly when they're pulling into a station. The trains are generally very quiet, and these sounds are rather subtle. However, they're unlike anything I've heard on a subway train before. What is it about the motors and brakes on these trains that causes them to make these sounds?
-- David
Boston, MA
That's AC traction for you!
I'm sure this has already been discussed here, but what are the advantages of AC traction vs. DC traction?
-- David
Boston, MA
AC Traction motors don't have brushes, but then again there are brushless DC motors.
Motors are explained at How Stuff Works.
Another advantage involves control. To control a DC motor, resistors are used which cut the current and lower the power the motor uses. The extra energy is given off as heat. Therefore, you use mostly the same amount of power regardless of the speed of the motor.
In AC induction (vs. a universal motor, which is where the stator magnets are windings wired in series with the brushes, again, see HSW), the frequency of the AC is used to control the speed. In this case, this is done at the same time as conversion to AC (pure DC is flat and does not have waves, pure DC exists only from batteries). This eliminates the need to lose energy to heat.
I recieved a copy of Mr Allah's video of the 7 Train. Because I don't ride the 7 that often, I decided to ask for this video. On a scale of 1-10, I give it a 9. I think it is high quality, because unlike the LIRR's videos, he makes more than one trip. As a matter of fact, he makes several trips that each time u enter Main Street on different Tracks. Also, I heard some familiar Conductor voices on his video, especially Mr I have no life Conductor. Also in this video, he includes shots of Corona yard. This brings it home, because no one is allowed in there. Also another good point, part of it has the N(SlantR40). Plus this video will be an excellent way to remember those Railfanning days on the 7 line and the Redbirds. Both will disappear very soon. Reason being, is that the MTA will be putting the R62's witl Transverse Cabs on the 7 line, Thus meaning there will be no more Railfanning unless a M/M is nice enough to let u in. Believe me there aren't enough of those. For 20.oo's it is the best way to see ur favorite Rail lines. Plus I saw the R127 at willets point. I never saw an R127 besides the New York City Subway cars book!!! I hope he desides to do more videos, of other lines like the J or the D or Q. but his videos are really nice. Especially since I cannot ride the 7 at night, he includes some night trips!
I would like to thank this young man for his post .......this fall the MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER will be in action again
with 5 five hour formats each.. day & night each line seperately ( It will be called ""PROJECT REDBIRD ) ......
Again to get a 9 rating out of 10......!!! Not good enough ..!! I am aming for a perfect # 10 this fall so hold on to your vcr .!!!!!!
Mr F train do not be suprised to see that nobody answered this post except you and me.........
The ""NEW YORK"" & east coast subtalkers havent got the balls to ride the DOG ( Greyhound ) cross country
and then shoot marathon style on thier own NYC subway system ....!!
No mr F train it takes a REAL MAN to do the job & get it done right !!! Last november 1999 I was only running
an Experement this time it is for real.......AND THIS TIME IT IS WAR !!!!! ..
Dont musunderstand me Mr F train I am a perfectly peaceful man even at 50 years of age ( thank you ) ..
I would like to thank this young man for his post .......this fall the MACHINE GUN CAMCORDER will be in action again
with 5 five hour formats each.. day & night each line seperately ( It will be called ""PROJECT REDBIRD ) ......
Again to get a 9 rating out of 10......!!! Not good enough ..!! I am aming for a perfect # 10 this fall so hold on to your vcr .!!!!!!
Mr F train do not be suprised to see that nobody answered this post except you and me.........
The ""NEW YORK"" & east coast subtalkers havent got the balls to ride the DOG ( Greyhound ) cross country
and then shoot marathon style on thier own NYC subway system ....!!
No mr F train it takes a REAL MAN to do the job & get it done right !!! Last november 1999 I was only running
an Experement this time it is for real.......AND THIS TIME IT IS WAR !!!!! ..
Dont musunderstand me Mr F train I am a perfectly peaceful man even at 50 years of age ( thank you ) ..
I have seen an R127 work motor at work on the 7 line recently. I only have one question. Are they dual-mode? or are they like the yellow and black motors built by G.E, meaning straight diesel?
Also, what are the R127's used for?
R-127 (EP01 - EP10) and their twin R-134 (EP11 - EP18) are not dual mode. they was electric only and operate from the 3rd rail.
The R127 and it's younger sister car, the R134, are used to haul garbage trains. These are the trains that collect the garbage in the system every night. They're electric only.
-Hank
I was told the schedule of the R110B. I went looking for it a while ago, and I never saw it in its time slot. Hopefully I will see it this time. I hear it leaves Euclid Avenue at 3:1? something. I can probably reach Euclid around 2:50. I hope to see it pull in. Hopefully this will be good.
I have tried a total of 10 times to find the damned thing, end up sitting in Chambers st. for over 2 hours and find nothing. After getting a schedule, tried to get it at 9:56 from 168. Never showed, saw it up in 207st yd later on. Only saw it in action once, on the A in '97, express tracks of 34st while I was on the uptown local platform. Pure torture.
I still have Northbound Sunday 2, Southbound Saturday 6, Southbound Sunday 6, and Sunday Northbound 6 to do. Since I have to be at Friendship Heights to Metro down to Union Station and come up to New York at about 12, I will have all the things done by then except, if due to limited time, the remaining Sunday schedules will be finished on my return. I will post a link for you to download them from on my web site. The transit part of my web site will be made and uploaded this summer.
Enjoy the R142 schedule but ride the Redbirds before I have to sit down and make a schedule for runs operated by them.
I still have Northbound Sunday 2, Southbound Saturday 6, Southbound Sunday 6, and Sunday Northbound 6 to do. Since I have to be at Friendship Heights to Metro down to Union Station and come up to New York at about 12 on Monday, I will have all the things done by then except, if due to limited time, the remaining Sunday schedules will be finished on my return. I will post a link for you to download them from on my web site. The transit part of my web site will be made and uploaded this summer.
Enjoy the R142 schedule but ride the Redbirds before I have to sit down and make a schedule for runs operated by them.
What about Tulpehocken on SEPTA's Chestnut Hill West Lin or Conshohocken on the Norristown RRL. Then there's always Wissahickon (or is it Wissachicken) also on the Norristown. I'll bet the people that go there masticate as well.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You did say masticate?
That's nothing. I was in the Post Office the other day, and I saw a guy practicing philately.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I also practice philately. And numismatics as well.
He must have been a philatelist!
>>>I saw a guy practicing philately. <<<
Well, ain't you the cunning linguist.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Metro-North is constructing a new siding on the Harlem LIne south of Patterson Station. This one will accomodate longer trains and will be needed for meets once the line is extended to Wassaic. There is a siding at Pawl Block Limit Station but it can only hold the two car Dover Plains Rocket. Another siding is located at Wing Block Limit Station that is 930 feet long. This is just north of the Wingdale Station which is located on the grounds of the railroad retirement home.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have contacted you on your private E-Mail
Steve
A day or two ago, I posted that flat car F-116's body was an old Mack bus. Today I was told that the body is actually the fronts of two GMC TDH-4507s, put together.
David
No it's a former school bus, look at the photo that Dave posted.
Let's look at the photo again. The bus body has standee windows. School buses don't have standee windows because students must be seated. Would the NYCTA buy a scraped school bus body to fit on a flat car? No, considering CI Yard held the out-of-service bus bodies (without engines), simply transfering a body from surface to Rapid Transit would be a snap. It is hard to say if the orginal body was a MACK or a GM, but yes it WAS a transit bus.
Umm Sorry, NYS allows Standees on YELLOW BUSES and the amount allowed per bus must be stated on the side. Total Adults Carried, Total Children and Total Standees, total counts reflect carring all of that type (except Standee) at once.
NYBOE does not allow Children Standees on any thing that has "SCHOOL BUS" markings on it. I don't know about the State. Note Yellow buses in NYC must have the BOE logo on them to carry NYCBOE kids, this means the carrier meets NYBOE standards.
I took another look at the photo that Dave posted & don't think it was a Mack, but might be a old GMC TDH (compared against photos in the "Bus Mega Calendar" ... too bad Joe gave it up in 98).
Mr t__:^)
06/10/2000
[No it's a former school bus, look at the photo that Dave posted]
Sorry Thurston! It may be painted school bus yellow, or therabouts!, but that is without a doubt a GMC "old look" body. Probably from the late 40's or early 50's.
Bill "Newkirk"
Right, Bill. (Sorry Thurston, 'ol buddy, 'ol pal)
It's most certainly a converted GMC oldie, a la the "Ralph Kramden" type.
"And Awaaaaay We Goooo..." :-)
Doug aka BMTma
Sorry about that, some times if it walks like a duck (flat front with all those lights), and looks like a duck (yellow) this writer thinks it's a duck ... but closer inspection of the photo does prove you guys right.
Mr t__:^)
Well, this sounds like a term paper theme, but..
Manhattan has torn down its els, while Chicago's are still thriving.
What sociological, economical, and geographical realities contributed to this development?
www.forgotten-ny.com
For one thing, Chicago was basically built on top of a former swamp, not exactly the ideal condition for a lot of below-grade construction. (The city wasn't even able to put sewer and water lines below ground; they simply laid the lines down the middle of the streets, and then raised the street level. This is why houses in many neighborhoods appear to have "sunken" front yards.) Chicago's first subways weren't built until well after it became feasible for deep-bore tunneling in the hard clay down below all the sand and muck.
Also, it was much cheaper to build els than subways; our old friend Mr. Yerkes was much more interested in making a quick profit than building a state-of-the-art subway system. Many of the curves and kinks in the routes today are due to the system following the cheapest ROW's available at the time.
-- David
Boston, MA
Well... Yerkes probably knew by 1900 that deep-bore clay tunneling was feasable. He was one of those responsible for the development of the deep tube railways in London. The Piccadilly line had its first portion open in 1906 (Yerkes died in 1905).
So Chicago's story is not just that there weren't any feasible tunneling methods...
Cheap construction also had a lot to do with why the New York els were built, too. Several histories of the NY subway system tell the story that a number of city planners wanted to build a subway, (probably an open cut like London's Circle/Metropolitan/District line, built that way due to the use of steam-powered trains) but that the real power behind the scene (aka, the Tweed Ring) had a financial stake in the els and wouldn't hear of it.
New York City HAS els, and for the same reason -- because they are cheap. But they are connected to the subway. Are those in Chicago?
I think one factor is that NYC's original all El Els may not have been built to last, while Chicago's were. The heavy duty els on the outskirts of the city are still there, and replacing them with subways is so far down the list of priorities that it is unlikely to happen.
[New York City HAS els, and for the same reason -- because they are cheap. But they are connected to the subway. Are those in Chicago?]
Most of New York's now-vanished els were/should have been replaced by subways:
Ninth Avenue el -- replaced by Eighth Avenue subway
Sixth Avenue el -- replaced by Sixth Avenue subway
Fulton Street el -- replaced by Fulton Street subway
Jamaica el (outer portion) -- replaced by Archer Avenue subway
Second Avenue el -- should have been replaced by Second Avenue subway
Third Avenue el -- should have been replaced by Second Avenue subway
Unreplaced els include the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue el and maybe some els in Brooklyn.
The portion of the Jamaica el that was replaced by the subway was really a small portion, considering that the el starts back at the Williamsburg Bridge!
The Chicago subway/el rolling stock is much lighter than the NYC transit equipment. What was heavier, the BMT standards or the original IND cars? Either class out-weighed anthing in Chicago.
The IRT low-Vs were probably heavier than any Chicago equipment of the era also.
What contributes to the lighter weight of Chicago's el cars? Lighter trucks, aluminum carbodies?
I believe the Chicago subway/el cars are limited to 60' or less.
So, the shorter cars should (in most cases) weigh less than the longer NYC subway cars. The IRT low-v cars were longer than the wooden el cars, which for the most part were about equal in size and weight throught the US.
All CTA cars currently in service are 48' long each, and are about 9' wide. The longest trains on the system are 8 cars long, except for the Brown and Purple Lines, which are only six cars long. The Yellow Line only runs 2-car trains.
I never realized how small these cars seemed (and how short the trains are) until I began spending time riding the NYC and Boston subways. I'd personally like to see normal 75' cars on the CTA, but that won't happen without some pretty radical changes to the physical infrastructure of the system.
-- David
Boston, MA
Ok, so the old El car std length was 48'.
I guess that spec applied to the North Shore and CA&E cars also.
The South Shore line did not enter Chicago via the El.
Was there any consideration to one of the southside interurban lines using the El?
I travelled on the North Shore line on the last day of operation and prior. (USN, Great Lakes '62 - '63)
Mellow One wrote:
> Ok, so the old El car std length was 48'.
Old, and current too. The only longer cars ever to turn a wheel on the "L" were either articulated (the two Electroliners and the four postwar 5000-series cars, later 1-4), or strictly limited in where they could run (the Department of Transportation's State of the Art Car of the Seventies, which put in a short period of revenue service on the Skokie Swift).
> I guess that spec applied to the North Shore and CA&E
> cars also.
> The South Shore line did not enter Chicago via the El.
> Was there any consideration to one of the southside
> interurban lines using the El?
Consideration, probably; but as far as I know it never got very far.
There were really only two southern interurbans in Chicago (plus a local street railway in Harvey, and the Midlothian & Blue Island, an isolated, lightly-built, and short-lived line which served the Midlothian Country Club).
The Chicago & Southern Traction Co., later Chicago & Interurban, operated into Chicago via street railway trackage on Vincennes Avenue and Halsted Street. It ended seven miles south of the Loop, at the "L"'s Halsted station on the Englewood branch. Passengers were interchanged, but there was no physical connection; and, even if a ramp up to the "L" had been built, C&S would have had to operate a very different sort of equipment from anything it ever owned.
The Chicago and Joliet at first glance might seem a better prospect for an "L" connection, having been an Insull property after 1915. However, its own lines came nowhere near the "L." Its main Chicago terminal was at Archer and Cicero, about nine miles southwest of the Loop, where connection was made with Chicago Surface Lines' Archer cars. There was also a branch from Summit to Lyons, where C&J's tracks abutted (and may well have had a physical connection with) the Chicago & West Towns Street Railway. C&WT's PRW and street trackage did eventually cross the Douglas Park branch of the "L" at grade, at Laramie Avenue and about 21st Street. A phyiscal connection could easily have been built there. However, this would have given C&J a roundabout and rather slow entrance to central Chicago, probably no faster than simply arranging for trackage rights, in good Midwest interurban style, over CSL's street trackage down Archer. And, as with C&S, equipment compatibility would have been a barrier to operation over the "L."
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Thanks for the Southside info.
I had a post a couple of week ago on how the Els, with thier surface connections could have made for some really long fan trips, or in some cases some revenue runs. In the Chicago/tri-state area, for instance, you could have travelled from Sheboygan, Wisconsin to how far south and possibly east on a 600 V DC line in the same piece of equipment. (assuming that you could interchange a TMER&L freight/express motor unit with the North Shore onto the El, then west, how far, Elgin? or South, South Bend?, Mishwaka, further east?
The South Shore line comes into Chicago via Illinois Central trackage and terminates at Randolph St. It hooks up with the IC at Kensington in an arrangement which dates back to, IIRC, 1926 or 1927. At the same time, the South Shore was converted from a 6600-volt AC operation to 1500-volt DC, which was what the IC used. One note: 6600 volts was used on rural stretches. When street running was encountered in East Chicago, Michigan City, and South Bend, power was limited to 700 volts for safety reasons, which was enough to get a two-car train going and not much more. It was possible to cut over to 6600 volts for longer trains, but had to be done manually at the power station.
Mellow One wrote:
> I had a post a couple of week ago on how the Els, with thier
> surface connections could have made for some really long fan
> trips, or in some cases some revenue runs. In the Chicago/
>tri-state area, for instance, you could have travelled from
> Sheboygan, Wisconsin to how far south and possibly east on
> a 600 V DC line in the same piece of equipment. (assuming that
> you could interchange a TMER&L freight/express motor unit with
> the North Shore onto the El, then west, how far, Elgin?
> or South, South Bend?, Mishwaka, further east?
Good question, to which I'm not sure I have a definitive answer. First of all, the trip could have started 23 miles northwest of Sheboygan, at Elkhart Lake, on Wisconsin Power and Light. Beyond Chicago, the obvious itinerary would have been to connect via the "L" to the CA&E, continuing beyond Elgin via the Elgin & Belvedere and Rockford & Interurban to Freeport. This would have been possible until March 9, 1930, when the Elgin-Rockford line was abandoned.
Another possibility involving the CA&E would have been to run out the Aurora line, connecting to the Aurora, Elgin & Fox River to Yorkville, the Fox & Illinois Union to Morris, and the Chicago, Ottawa & Peoria to Princeton, Illinois. This would have been possible between 1911 (the opening of the F&IU) and 1924 (abandonment of the Aurora-Yorkville line).
Physical connections to the east are iffier. These rely on the fact that Chicago Rapid Transit's Lower 63rd Street yard did have a track connection to Chicago Surface Lines on 63rd Street. (Or, I suppose, alternatively, a very indirect connection between the "L" and CSL might have been made via the CA&E, Aurora, Plainfield & Joliet, and Joliet & Chicago.) Using CSL's lines through the Southeast Side, it would have been possible to get into Indiana on rails of the Hammond, Whiting & East Chicago Street Railway. The question I'm unable to answer without more research is whether there was any point at which HW&EC had an electrified physical connection to Gary Railways' Hammond line.
Why Gary Railways (earlier Gary & Interurban) rather than South Shore? Incompatible power supply: South Shore used a quirky 6600 volt AC down system down to about 1926, then converted to 1500 volt DC. The problem as specified, remember, involved a 600-volt car.
Thus, the eastern connection could have worked, given a suitable HW&EC-Gary Railways connection, only for the few years the grandly-named New York & Chicago Electric Air Line was in operation (about 1912-1917). Gary & Interurban and the Air Line could have been used to connect to the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana at LaPorte.
Once LaPorte was reached, a wide field of connecting possibilities would have been open: Just about anywhere in the Indiana-Ohio network, and, while the Cleveland & Erie (between Conneaut, OH and Erie, PA) was in operation (1903-1922), onward via Buffalo to upstate New York, with Oneonta being the most distant point reachable from Elkhart Lake.
All of this, of course, hinges on the existence or non-existence of one little rail connection in the vicinity of Hammond, Indiana. I'll have to dredge out the old CERA bulletins and look into this further.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
That's a great summary.
So, your saying Hammond was the link pin.
That was a busy town.
You probably could not go a block or less without runing into some RR, trolley and or interurban tracks, right up to the lakefront.
Yes, I know about that kiss & tell infactuation with AC power that a few companies tried (includeing the TMER&L) but, in most cases converted to 600V DC.
The reason I started in Sheboygan, was, it was fairly good size town as opposed to being out in the woods on Elkhart lake. And, freight motors usually had the clearances to go almost anywhere. Whereas the TMER&L passenger equipment porbably exceeded the clrearances for the Chicago El and may have been too heavy.
Eureka! We have a Calumet District connection (and even a few spares). In fact, CERA Bulletin 104, page IV-8, shows track connections at three points in Hammond between Gary Railways and Hammond, Whiting & East Chicago, as well as a few blocks of shared trackage in East Chicago.
Therefore, between August 14, 1912 (the construction of a physical connection between the Air Line and the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana at La Porte, Indiana) and November 17, 1917 (the abandonment of the Air Line between Goodrum Junction and La Porte), it would have been possible for a suitably-equipped car to have run through from Elkhart Lake, WI to Oneonta, NY. Perhaps, to stay in period, a third-rail-equipped Aurora, Elgin & Chicago car should be chosen; North Shore, the more obvious choice, did not begin through operation into CRT third-rail territory until August 6, 1919, though a track connection between the Northwestern Elevated and the Chicago & Milwaukee Electric at Central Street, Evanston, had been established by May 16, 1908.
To summarize, the routing, taking company names as of, say, 1915, would have been:
Elkhart Lake
- Wisconsin Power & Light
Sheboygan
- Milwaukee Northern (later part of TMER&L)
Milwaukee
- Chicago & Milwaukee Electric (later CNS&M)
Evanston
-Northwestern Elevated
-Union Loop
-South Side Elevated
Lower 63rd St. Yard
- Chicago Surface Lines (or, in 1915, maybe one of the predecessor companies)
State Line
- Hammond, Whiting & East Chicago Street Railway
Hammond
- Gary & Interurban
La Porte
- Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana
Goshen
- Winona Interurban
Peru
- Ft. Wayne & Wabash Valley
Ft. Wayne
- Ft. Wayne, Van Wert & Lima
Lima
- Western Ohio
Findlay
- Toledo, Fostoria & Findlay
Fostoria
- Fostoria & Findlay
Fremont
- Lake Shore Electric
Cleveland
- Cleveland, Painesville & Eastern
Painesville
- Cleveland, Painesville & Ashtabula
Ashtabula
- Pennsylvania & Ohio
Conneaut
- Cleveland & Erie
Erie
- Buffalo & Lake Erie
Buffalo
- International Railway
Lockport
- Buffalo, Lockport & Rochester
Rochester
- Empire United
Syracuse
- New York State Railways - Oneida Railway (covered
third rail; some potential equipment compatibility
problems with our hypethetical AE&C car?)
Utica
- New York State Railways - Utica & Mohawk Valley
Herkimer
- Otsego & Herkimer
Oneonta
(At which point we would have been thrown upon the steam-powered mercies of the D&H and connections for onward progress to the New York area; contrary to legend, it was never possible to run all the way through from Chicago to New York by trolley.)
Did any eo-railfan ever actually underake this 600-volt odyssey? Unlikely, though there was one recorded charter movement from upstate New York (Rochester?) to Louisville, Kentucky. This routing, of course, avoided those awkward Chicago-area connection problems.
By the way, it does occur to me that when things come down to the chronology of trackage arrangements in La Porte, Indiana, I may be guilty of leading things a bit off-topic for SubTalk. If so, my apologies; and any plonks of a midwest-traction monomaniac and occasional SubTalk lurker will be understood!
--
Alan "alas, born too late for interurbans, and too early for time travel" Follett
Now, all we need to do is climb in our time machines, and off we go.
That' a really great summary.
I knew the North Shore Evanston El connection existed way back.
The TMER&L connected to the North Shore in Milwaukee.
One of the real missing links was a connection to the Illinois Terminal System. Nobody made it close to Springfield, except for one of the Indiana lines that stopped short of the border, and I think there was a branch or a local line that it could of connected to at Champaign.
North Shore cars were 55'9" long as I recall. would guess CA&E about the same. I'd also guess the North Shore cars were the absolute longest that would fit the curves and clearances. By the way the CNSM cars weighed 45- to maybe 55 tons for the heaviest. That spiderweb structure on the loop held them up, you'd never think so.
Were you by any chance on the last revenue train? By all accounts, it was a bitterly cold night on January 20, 1963. And the Electroliners still ran as good as ever.
The headline on the paper was -12 that morning and yes it was bitter cold. But the train ride although sad was in some other respects 'warm' and cheery given that most of us were train fans. (we drove in from college to take in this last day of service then crashed at the Y before heading back to classes)
I have a May 1991 copy of a railfan magazine whose title escapes me at the moment with an article which chronicles the last night of service on the North Shore, aboard one of the Electroliners. This article was written on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the Electroliners' debut, as well as the restoration of the unit at IRM in Union, IL.
I did the whole route that day.
I got detained in Chicago, I think we went to the Burlesque show down on State St. So, we had to take the C&NW back to Great Lakes.
Yes, it was a bitter winter. That day was really bad.You had to stick your foot around the corner first to see how windy & cold it was before proceeding.
I think there was still a bilt of freight activity for a few days or weeks after while they emptied the line and the freight sidings.
Later that spring/summer, I went down to Highwood and photographed everything while it was sitting there. There was also a yard in N Chicago that held a lot of work equipment. I think one of the tracks of that yard was the original place of the IRM.
The "deluxe model" 4000's *weighed about the same as a Low-V motor 38 1/2 to 39 tons maybe a few pounds more. The IRT high-V's weighed 39-45 tons depending on car type and whether MUDC or not. On the els the Manhattan gate cars weighed about 29 tons (motors)*.. ran 30-or so when equipped with MUDC; the BMT l903-07 gate cars weighed about 37 tons. There were some differences.* meaning the l902-11 cars.*Chicago 4000's that is. The baldies were about 35 tons.
Thanks for the weight specs info.
At some point in time (soon) we need to tabulate this info so that ther can be a ready comparison to the specs of the subway/El equipment in the cities that have such a history, NY, Boston, Chicago, Philly.
Yes, I know that there are newer entries into the list.
This list is to compare the evolutionary process.
Although, a good cross reference of the all the current rapid transit systems is needed. We would have to massage the data in the Janes book for that info or wait for submissions from the faithful.
The all-steel 4000s were the heaviest L cars ever to run in Chicago.
The 6000s borrowed heavily from PCC technology; in fact, 570 of them were built using parts (trucks, motors, door engines, seats, windows, bullet lights, etc.) cannibalized from Green Hornet streetcars. They weighed drastically less than the 4000s. Ever since then, car weight has crept back up with each new order, but still hasn't approached 4000-series proportions.
So the 600 Green Hornets (570 of them, anyway) served as organ donors long before the R-30s did. What about the remaining 30? One car, 4391, survives intact and in operating condition at the Illinois Railway Museum. 7078 was destroyed in a collision with a gasoline truck (about the worst thing a streetcar could hit) and subsequent blaze at 63rd and State on May 25, 1950. 7205 split a switch at State and Root on July 17, 1949 and derailed, wrapping itself around a safety island. It was rebuilt with parts from 7078 and returned to service; however, it cannot be determined if it was included in the conversion program. The remaining cars were scrapped without any parts being salvaged.
BMT standard weighed 47 tons plus; the R1-9 weighed 42 tons give or take a few hundred pounds depending on which group.[ The standards were 7 feet longer too]See my other message in this thread [one of them anyway] ofor some weights. IRT and Chicago that is.
The BMT Standard offered a spacious interior unequalled by any NY equipment, either before or since. They obviously could not be wider, it must have had something to do with the seating arrangement!
I am looking for the people who made the trip to the Brooklyn Army Terminal and saw those BCRR coaches at the platform. I used to work there until 1975 and from the looks of the pictures, those BCRR coaches look like they were repainted 1940's-50's streamlined trains.
Can you shed some light in that direction?
i was on the recent trip to the brooklyn army terminal... to the best of my memory, it looked like they painted brooklyn central on the cars special for some sort of movie shoot or something... we looked into the cars from the other side, and they were a mess inside...
i am sure that as soon as doug sees your post, he'll have more to add... those cars were blocked in there, as there was a platform built that is blocking the tracks...
if you live in the new york city area, doug is giving another tour of the area within the next month or so that will be sponsored by the transit museum...
The Transit Museum is conducting a tour of the Bush Terminal/Brooklyn Army Terminal area on June 24th. The Brooklyn Central RR coaches you mentioned are dummy cars that were former LIRR commuter coaches. The BCRR had a terminal facility on 55th between 2nd and 3rd Avenues. The large red-brick building still occupies that site and will be featured in the walking tour. Contact the Transit Museum @ (718) 243-3063 for further details.
Hope to see you there.
Doug aka BMTman
Those cars were going to be scrapped about 10 years ago by the folks that ran BAT at the time. They are actually LIRR Bar/Generator cars, that provided "juice" to both the coaches and passengers in the un-electrified lines. I dont recall the car numbers.
The cars were just shells, and I suggested they paint them, replace missing windows, and have an exhibit inside. The last part of the plan never came off, but atleast the cars are preserved to a certain degree. The "Brooklyn Central" is a fictitious name, as the BAT people wanted the word "Brooklyn" used, and not LIRR.
The cars were trapped inside when the tracks were removed at both ends, during the conversion to office space.
[The "Brooklyn Central" is a fictitious name, as the BAT people wanted the word "Brooklyn" used, and not LIRR.]
Actually, the Brooklyn Central Railroad was in fact a real line. However, if I'm correct, it was a horse-drawn street car company that never made it into electric traction, and was out of business at around the turn of the century.
Doug aka BMTman
I know the KCC ran for one season east from Willink (Prospect Park on the Brighton) east to about Nostrand Avenue, then south and southwest to the Bay Ridge Junction (Bay Ridge meets Manhattan Beach).
Hmm. Sounds like you know from experience. Did you ride it?
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
I cracked open my copy of Sefried's books on the LIRR; here's the name stories:
The Brooklyn Central & Jamaica operated the former LIRR route on Atlantic Av. from 1861 until about 1874, when it was taken over by the Atlantic Avenue RR.
The line that Pigs mentioned was the Kings County Central (yet another Electus B. Litchfield debacle). After it ran for 1 season, it was torn up and sold as scrap by angry farmers, who were also investors.
The Atlantic Avenue RR was a subsidiary of the LIRR?
I asked this question before:
Was Atlantic Avenue laid out by the LIRR, or was it Fulton Street laid out by the el company?
The LIRR assigned its rights to the Atlantic Avenue route in 1861 to the Brooklyn and Jamaica Central RR. They in turn went bankrupt about 1874, and were bought at auction by William Richardson, who then gave it to his corporation, the Atlantic Avenue RR.
When the LIRR returned to Brooklyn in 1876, they were in the peculiar position of having to lease back their own line from the Atlantic Av RR.
This situation continues today- the MTA leases the Atlantic branch from the City, who are the successors of the Atlantic Av RR.
According to a an unpublished work about local area railroads, the Brooklyn Central RR was indeed a functioning horse-drawn line that came into existance on August 13, 1859, but was later abosorbed into or merged with the (on 8-8-1860) Brooklyn and Jamaica Railroad, which itself later became the Brooklyn Central and Jamaica Railroad (talk about technicalities in company titles??)
Doug aka BMTman
Here's some additional material on the Kings County Central RR
What was the purpose of the BCRR? And why did the cars end up in the BAT? Was there ever such a thing as passenger carfloats? How often does the LIRR operate their freight line down 1st avenue between BAT and the Bush Terminal interchange yard?
-Daniel
The New York Cross-Harbor Railraod
[What was the purpose of the BCRR? And why did the cars end up in the BAT? Was there ever such a thing as passenger carfloats? How often does the LIRR operate their freight line down 1st avenue between BAT and the Bush Terminal interchange yard?]
During World War II, the Army Terminal probably was a very busy railroad station indeed. Almost all of the troops sent to the European front were shipped out through the Terminal - you're talking about hundreds of thousands - and I would presume that the majority of them arrived by rail.
The BMT standards were the second heaviest subway cars ever to run in NYC, with the Triplexes taking the top prize.
I guess, technically speaking the triplexes were really 3 units supported on 5 carriages/trucks. The Electroliner had more units like the original Zepher trains.
Could the triplexes have been downsized (outshopped) to duplexes or lengthened to quadplexes or more?
According to Chicago's Rapid Transit; Vol 1: Rolling Stock 1892-1947 (CERA Bulletin 119) Car 2717 (orig. 717) built 1904 by ACF as an all-steel rebuild of an 1894 Barney & Smith wood body car. It tipped the scales at 50 tons (image the pounding that behemoth gave the L). It ran as a passenger car until December 1952, when CTA converted it to snow blower S-308. It was scrapped in August 1957.
Yes, I have the book. Mosyt of the pictures show it on the ground,
probably, where they kept it (in service) the Normal Park & Cicero branches.
Still a pity though. I always enjoyed the grand entry into the "town" of Jamaica on the el, even when I had to make 3 trips a day. It was even grander when we had the R9 et al.
I may not share your enthusiasm for the R-9, but the old 168th St center platform el station was a charmer. You could go down the stairs, to the street and be in the center of everything. My choice for occupants of the station would naturally be the Standards.
Only one other el station impressed me as much, and that was the old Bridge-Jay St el station. This one really was not designed to be a end of line station, but it served as such for a lot of years.
Another nice station was Metropolitan Ave. It was not really an el station though, since it was built on ground level. I understand that this is no longer a wood structure, but has been rebuilt with concrete and steel.
Metropolitan Avenue Station on the "M" line burned in 1976, taking three R27s (8202,8203,8237) and one R30 (8512) with it. It has since been rebuilt with a near full-length canopy and a concrete platform surface. The station house has been redone as well, even though it escaped the fire.
wayne
06/10/2000
[The station house has been redone as well, even though it escaped the fire.]
That old station building was pure BMT !
Bill "Newkirk"
I'll bet that it does not look like the old station.
Was there any determination made as to what caused the fire?
Indeed it wouldn't break my heart if the standards were on Jamaica el when I was running.(if nothing else the R9 were a more likely stock than the Rl6, 27 etc..at least while we had the chance to enjoy them). My favorite el stations, in NYC anyway, were upper Broadway and the Fort Apache station on the IRT. They were in that post-Victorian but still nice, and sturdy with 20th Century construction. If you get to the city ride the #1 to Van Cortlandt, you'll see what I mean. (but they weren't as ornate as the originals els.) Metropolitan station on Myrtle burned down in the summer of 74 hence was rebuilt fireproof. I lived at Madison and Seneca in Ridgewood and could see the smoke from there.
You would have gotten a kick out of the old Grand Ave-Myrtle Ave station on the Lex and the Myrt. Lex trains bound for Eastern Parkway had no station platform.
the old Bridge-Jay St el station. This one really was not designed to be a end of line station, but it served as such for a lot of years.
It had a fire, too, in, I think, 1946, right?
--Mark
AFAIK, the Myrtle Ave. el was cut back to Jay St. in 1944, at which time el train operation over the Brooklyn Bridge ended.
That 1944 cutback was what caused Bridge-Jay St to become the last stop on both the Lex and the Myrt.
Somewhere in my archives I have a newspaper article referring to a fire at Bridge&Jay. I believe it was about l946; there was an electrical fire in one car of a wooden BU train (what else.. there never were steel cars there). Took a few other cars with it and some of the station.
I believe that there was also a fire at the Sands St Terminal.
Some correspondents note that fire as the reason that the bridge El traffic was terminated when it did.
Could be. Just for those interested I'll share a story an old timer told me when I was a young motorman 30 plus years ago. Had said the Brooklyn Bridge was so badly in need of repairs that the trippers were tied down and there was an order out not to make an emergency stop on the bridge. Just a thought..the BB had been closed at one time guess about l950 for rebuilding.. my family was going to take me for a walk across it but it was closed. So guess the work was overdue.
That 1950s work was to expand the roadway to 3 lanes in each direction and eliminate the "dedicated ROW" the El ran in. Probably closed the pedestrian walkway to perform the work.
--Mark
The present day Chicago "red line" is connected to the state st. subway from the North side from Howard; it used to run over the south side els after leaving the subway but now runs down the Dan Ryan. The little that remains of the Logan Square L runs into the Dearborn subway [blue line] and heading south then one branch runs over the Douglas Park el; the other branch down the Congress (Eisenhower) expressway. That used to be the Garfield Park el, now demolished.
New York City HAS els, and for the same reason -- because they are cheap. But they are connected to the subway. Are those in Chicago?
Yes, for the most part. The Red Line el, going southbound, dives into a subway at Willow Avenue, just south of Armitage. This subway becomes the State Street Subway, and emerges just south of Roosevelt. Once it emerges it continues down the median of the Dan Ryan Expressway. (Until a few years ago, trains emerged to the Jackson Park / Englewood el on the South Side. The track connection still exists, but is no longer in regular service.)
The Blue Line, inbound from O'Hare, goes from an expressway median to a subway south of Addison, then goes to an el south of Logan Square, and then dives into a subway just before entering the Division station. This subway becomes the Dearborn Street Subway, and emerges just west of downtown in the middle of the Eisenhower Expressway. Forest Park (Congress) trains continue down the median of the expressway for most of the remainder of the route, while 54/Cermak (Douglas) trains rise up the vertigo-inducing "Angel's Flight" ramp to an el at Paulina before turning southward. The Douglas route runs on an el for a good portion of the remaining route before dropping to grade level.
-- David
Boston, MA
What parts of the Chicago system are at grade? below grade (but open)?
Pigs of Royal Island wrote:
> What parts of the Chicago system are at grade? below grade
> (but open)?
CTA segments at grade include the outer mile or so of the Purple Line (Evanston); the Brown Line (Ravenswood) west of a point between the Western Avenue and Rockwell stations; the Douglas Park branch of the Blue Line in Cicero; and the Yellow (Skokie Swift) line west of the North Shore Channel.
Historically, there were several other at-grade segments: The Garfield Park "L" west of Laramie Avenue, replaced by the present Blue Line in 1958, and its short-lived suburban extension, the Westchester Branch; the temporary Garfield Park surface trackage alongside Van Buren Street between roughly Racine Avenue and Sacramento Avenue, which operated only during expressway construction in 1953-58; the now-abandoned (in about 1952) western end of the Douglas Park Branch between 54th Avenue and Oak Park Avenue; the Howard Street line north of Wilson Avenue, originally a surface operation over the right-of-way of the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul's Evanston Branch, but elevated by 1915 or so; and the Lake Street line west of Laramie Avenue, relocated onto the paralleling C&NW embankment in the early 1960's.
The inner portion of the Yellow Line is in an open cut; I suppose you might also say this of the Forest Park branch of the Blue Line west of about Central Avenue, where it runs below grade between the Eisenhower Expressway and a steam road (now CSX? Ex-B&OCT, anyway) right-of-way.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The present-day types of construction (at grade, median, subway, el, etc.) are as follows:
(Get out your maps...)
Purple Line (inbound to Howard):
At grade from Linden to just north of Central
Embankment to just south of South Blvd
Flying junction and then at-grade through the yard at Howard
Yellow Line (inbound to Howard):
At grade from Dempster until before crossing the North Shore Channel
Embankment over the channel and for a short distance afterwards
Open cut to the yard at Howard
Red Line (southbound from Howard):
Embankment from Howard to just south of Lawrence
El to just south of Armitage
Subway to just south of Roosevelt
Embankment around the vincinity of Cermak/Chinatown
Expressway median (below-grade) south to 95th Street.
Brown Line (inbound from Kimball):
At grade from Kimball to west of Rockwell
El to the Loop
Blue Line - Congress Branch (inbound from O'Hare):
Subway from O'Hare station to about 1/4 mile beyond the parking structure
Expressway median (below grade with the exceptions of Rosemont and Irving Park stations, which are above-grade) to just south of Addison
Subway to just south of Logan Square
El to just north of Division
Subway to just east of UIC-Halsted
(Douglas line branches off just west of Racine -- See below)
Expressway median (below-grade) to about 1/2 mile west of Cicero
Open cut (adjacent to expressway and railroad) to just west of Harlem
Embankment to Des Plaines
Blue Line - Douglas Branch (outbound from Racine):
El from just west of Racine to east of Cicero
At grade from Cicero to 54th/Cermak
Orange Line (inbound from Midway):
Open cut at Midway
Modern el viaduct from north of Midway to around Pulaski
Embankment to just east of Western
At grade (sharing freight ROW) to south of 35/Archer
Flying junction over Archer Avenue
Embankment (sharing freight ROW) to east of Halsted
Modern el viaduct through Chinatown to junction with Green Line el south of Roosevelt
El into the Loop
Green Line (inbound from Harlem/Lake):
Embankment to around Austin or Central (I'm not 100% sure -- My notes are still packed away)
El all the way through the Loop and onward to the South Side, including both branches
That covers all of Chicago. (Not bad from memory, eh?) I hope this helps... A more in-depth description of the various CTA lines will be coming soon, as soon as I get five more rolls of film developed and scanned, and get my cryptic notes translated into a semi-legible write-up.
-- David
Boston, MA
Green line goes (westbound) from steel elevated structure to C&NW (now UP) embankment right of way just past Laramie Ave.
The movement of the tracks from the street level ROW to the embankment was made possible by the C&NW removing 2 of their 5 tracks from their embankment ROW in the mid-1950s.
-- Ed Sachs
I'd say sometime in l962. When I was there in the fall of 6l Lake St. trains descended to surface west of Laramie; when I returned in Jan 63 they were on the CNW embankment.
bigedirtmanl wrote:
> I'd say sometime in l962. When I was there in the fall of
> 6l Lake St. trains descended to surface west of Laramie;
> when I returned in Jan 63 they were on the CNW embankment.
According to Graham Garfield's Chicago rapid transit site, the elevation of the outer end of the Lake Street line was effective October 28, 1962.
http://www.chicago-l.org/history/chron_CTA.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, Ca
I arrived in Chicago about that time.
By the time I made my first trip out the Lake St line, the line on C&NW ROW was in use. However, the Street level tracks and overhead were still intact. I did get to ride on the Evanston line using the overhead trolley wire.
I see you are in Hercules, California.
I get out that way (Oakland) on business now and then.
Was there any special WWII rapid transit in use in that area, due to the big munitions plant? The Oakland and Bay areas are rich in rapid transit history also. I was wondering if some of those NYC El cars made it out to the Bay area.
Some of the NY El cars did - there was a thread on this a few months ago, including a link to a picture. I'm sorry but I don't remember the details, perhaps someone else will be able to fill you in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, the prehistoric ex-IRT wooden el cars didn't get as far north as Hercules. During and immediately after the war, from 1/18/43 to 9/30/45, Key System ran them on the hastily-constructed Richmond Shipyard Railway, running eight miles or so from Emeryville to the Kaiser shipyards in Richmond. This left the line around nine miles short of Hercules, which never had any form of electric transit. (But, yes, we did have a big explosives plant, on whose site my house presently sits. I hope I never find out what's under the foundation slab!)
--
Alan Follett
HercU)$#(*()$&@#$()#@ NO CARRIER
I know I have a family of armadillos under my house in Florida.
We lived in Hazzardville, Connecticut many years ago, and there was no shortage of munitions factories there through WWII. The New Haven Springfield (Mass) Armory line (on the east side of the Connecticut River) used to run right through the town. The Warehouse Point Trolley Museum is down the road a few miles from there.
One of the original proposals for the then building 9th Ave Line was for a stone viaduct to carry the NYC & Hudson RR trains in instead of the steel/ironwork of El that was finally built.
There was a lot of financial and political manevouring by the NYC politicians/gangsters to control whatever happend (transit & everything else) in the City.
That fighting reduced the raid transit plans of the time to the minimum so that there would be no coordination of the RR & rapid transit lines. NYC is probably fortunate that the city was not saddled with horse cars until WWI. Then the US Railway Admin stepped in and took over the whole railway system in the US, with some interesting results for the RR & Rapit transit interests. Some of that result being municiple ownership of rapid transt lines.
The NYC & Harlem RR would have been coordinated with the 3rd Ave line.
The New Haven backed the original 2nd Ave line as its entry into NYC.
However, only the lightly built El structures were finally built instead.
The original 6th Ave line was attempted as an independent operation.
However, it was swallowed up in the financial (un)doings of the time.
There was still a lot of financial & political rapid transit battles going on by the time the first subway and the H&M Systems were bieng built.
The Brooklyn Els have another history linked to the various Long Island and Brooklyn RR & money people of the era, and the some of big RR finalcial cast of characters of the era. Once the Brooklyn Bridge was built, another scramble for control of those utilities ensued, resulting in the BRT.
Actually one of the Transit Gloria Mundi videos states that Boss Tweed tried to stop the els because of street railway interests that greased him. Even if my Manhattan el experiences were VERY limited it was nice that these open-air lines existed as long as they did. Ride the Brown Line or Purple lione into and around the Chicago loop.. it's a treat, the only city where an el runs into the center.
>>Many of the curves and kinks in the routes today are due to the system following the cheapest ROW's available at the time.
And I've often thought that if CTA had any vision they would try to upgrade the el to ease some of these curves. The one I always think of is on the Green/Orange, a couple blocks south of the Loop. The track does a 90° right turn, immediately followed by a 90° left turn, in order to get 1/2 block west. And at least until '96 or so it was doing that jog around parking lots. They easily could rebuilt the el through there, cutting corners across the parking lots, to save 2 90° turns, a lot of wear and tear to trains and rails, a lot of noise for the neighborhood, a lot of energy, and mostly a lot of TIME. The rebuilt el would just have two gentle curves. And it would only cut off a small amount of property on those two parking lots.
That S-curve is still there, and I wouldn't count on the city changing it anytime soon. Although still surrounded by parking lots now, that area of downtown is making a quick comback with the current real estate boom. Expect those parking lots to be replaced by high-rise residential towers soon, and any changes made to straighten out the el would take a chunk out of somebody's valuable real estate.
And it's never been a secret that City Hall is much more eager to please the real estate developers (especially the ones with clout) than the CTA riders (especially the ones who live on the South Side).
-- David
Boston, MA
Well, they could have some imagination and string the el tracks through a building. It has certainly been done with freight RRs.
It would be great to see skyscrapers replace those parking lots (particularly if they did NOT have parking garages in them). But I hate that S curve!
If I understand the situation correctly, the city could close the streets and create a superblock for development, run the El diagonally through it, and add a station. Such things don't seem to happen in NYC anymore, but I would think they could happen in Chicago.
Such superblock developments, while fashionable in the 60's and 70's under the guise of "urban renewal", have been proven to be urban planning disasters in almost every case. People have now realized that street activity is the backbone of good urban design, and anything that decreases or eliminates street activity (such as getting rid of the streets themselves), usually leads to a bland, sterile wasteland at worst (Boston City Hall plaza), or a hermitacally sealed "artificial city for people who hate cities" at best (Detroit's Renaissance Center).
Thanks to people like Jane Jacobs ("Death and Life of Great American Cities") and William H. Whyte ("City: Rediscovering the Center"), city planners are just now beginning to discover just how anti-urban their past 40 years or urban planning orthodoxy has been, and the pendelum is finally beginning to swing back in the other direction. (Actually, some could argue that it has now swung too far in the opposite extreme in some cities, as more and more cities are beginning to resemble Disneyland theme parks for tourists and suburbanites. But that's another topic.)
Besides, both the streets in question (Wabash and Harrison) are both fairly major streets, and closing them off would create a traffic nightmare.
I'd personally be in favor of straightening out the L tracks per David McCabe's orginal suggestion, but requiring the developers to build the first floor partially under the tracks so as to maintain a continuous street wall of retail space, and I'd also give them air rights over the tracks as well. Certainly nothing a creative architect couldn't build around.
Adding a station probably wouldn't be a bad idea, although the Red Line subway station at Harrison is less than a block away. Perhaps the existing Red Line station and a new station on the el could be connected with each other and incorporated into the development. Ahh, but now we're getting too creative and forward-looking. The CTA will have our heads on a platter!
-- David
Boston, MA
There is one place in Chicago that I know of where the S-curve has been eased somewhat -- that being the S-curve at Hubbard St. from Wells to Franklin, just north of Merchandise Mart station on the Brown and Purple lines. You can see that the current alignment of the tracks going diagonally across the supporting beams along Hubbard St.
-- Ed Sachs
If I understand this is where there are two tracks on the four-track structure. Good to hear that they are doing the little things to reduce the curves, though its at the expense of those extra trackways (that they are very very unlikely to ever use). But actually rebuild a structure to reduce a curve? That's beyond their imagination. And think of all the federal $$$ they had to build the orange line, and rebuild the Green, that they could have used.
Top speed is unimportant in transit, as long as you can make it to 40 mph or so. What matters is getting rid of the slow spots.
If I understand this is where there are two tracks on the four-track structure.
The structure has always been a two-track structure at this point. The two additional tracks began just beyond the Chicago Avenue stop, the next station outbound. However, these two disused tracks and their associated structure is in the process of being removed by the CTA.
-- David
Boston, MA
Too bad they couldn't/didn't do what the South Shore did when it was built: buy out corner lots to permit wider curves. There isn't a single sharp curve along the entire South Shore route, with the result that freight trains can also run on it.
Remember, that before the Loop was built, the Chicago Els terminals were outside of the loop area. Most of those terminals are gone now.
However, the shoofly around those terminals is the reason for the kinks, and the Loop itself has those same short radius curves.
Mellow One wrote:
> Remember, that before the Loop was built, the Chicago Els
> terminals were outside of the loop area. Most of those terminals
> are gone now. However, the shoofly around those terminals is the
> reason for the kinks, and the Loop itself has those same short
> radius curves.
To amplify a bit, all four divisions of the "L" had stub terminals just off the Loop. Two were the original terminals of the lines; the other two were built after the Loop was in operation, to provide overflow capacity in rush hours.
The South Side "L," as opened in 1892, operated from a single-track stub terminal at Congress Street over the alley halfway between State and Wabash. When the South Side lines were connected to the Loop in 1897, the new alignment left the original route at Harrison Street, one block south of the Congress terminal, jogged eastward one-half block to Wabash (the kink in the present line noted elsewhere in this thread), and joined the Loop at Wabash and Van Buren. This line also had a station over Congress Street, half a block east of "Old Congress." The stub terminal was taken out of service when the Loop opened, but was reactivated for rush-hour overflow service in 1902. It was once again abandoned by CTA in 1949, but I believe it may have continued in use as the North Shore's baggage terminal for some years after that.
The original 1893 route of the Lake Street line, built as the Chicago & Oak Park, turned off Lake Street and ran three blocks south on Market Street (now Wacker Drive) to a terminal at Market and Madison. After the C&OP was extended down Lake Street to Wabash Avenue (over what would shortly become part of the Loop) in 1895, the Market Street stub became a secondary terminal for rush-hour operations. It was demolished in 1948.
The Metropolitan West Side "L" originally terminated at Franklin Street between Van Buren and Jackson. In 1897 connection to the Loop was established via a short segment of trackage over Franklin and Van Buren Streets, and the Franklin stub terminal was closed. In 1904 a new stub terminal was built on one block of elevated structure, ending just west of Fifth Avenue (now Wells Street) between Van Buren and Jackson; in the following year, Aurora, Elgin & Chicago (later CA&E) trains began using this as well. After discontinuance of CA&E service east of Des Plaines Avenue in 1953, the terminal building, which had already lost rapid transit service, was demolished. In 1955 the Garfield Park "L" was given a new connection to the Loop through the former terminal site; the block and a half of elevated structure over Franklin and Van Buren were then dismantled. The new junction was short-lived, being taken out of service in 1958 when the Garfield Park "L" was replaced by the Congress Street subway.
The Northwestern Elevated's North Water Street stub terminal was not built until well after the company's trains had begun operation on the Loop, which they did from the line's opening in 1900. The stub was opened in 1908. It last saw revenue service in 1949, but was not demolished until 1963.
--
AlanFollett
Hercules, CA
Thanks for the great summary.
This info needs to be deposited here on NYCsubway somewhere so that these and many other facts can be compiled into the proper files or (reference) pages.
David Cole has already offered a couple of factors -- though in blaming Charles Yerkes' thriftiness we should remember that at the time the core of the Chicago "L" system was built in the 1890's, New York didn't yet have a subway either. Also, soil conditions in Chicago, while perhaps a factor in deferring the completion of a true passenger subway until 1943, did not prevent the excavation of the Chicago Tunnel Company's very extensive network of underground narrow-gauge freight railways, of which about 45 miles began revenue operation in 1906.
Another difference is that in New York el lines were typically built over streets, while most of the Chicago "L" (with the notable exceptions of the Loop, the inner portion of the Lake Street line, and the mile and three-quarters of the Jackson Park branch over 63rd Street) was built relatively out of the way in mid-block. Thus, I would suspect that the New York lines came to be seen as much more of a civic blight, whose removal would advance the esthetics and commercial development of the streets below.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Indeed several small sections were removed over the years--the various pre Loop stubs, the Normal Park branch, the Kenwood branch, the Stock Yardsbranch, and the Humboldt Park branch as well as ancient suburban extensions of the current Blue Line. However, I point out two other facts.--The Blue (Congress) Line was the first freeway median stip line built to replace an L in the fifties, and as a more general comment Chicago is criss-crossed by railroad rights of way both at grade and on elevated embankments.
Frankly, based on the history available at this site, it seems clear that the City government in NYC came to see the Els and their owners as enemies of the people, and set out to destroy the El companies by building competing subways - specifically the IND. I don't think that there was any analogous history in Chicago. Further, I suspect that Chicago never had the financial resources that NYC displayed in the 1920's when it undertook to build the IND (of course, in those days, Transit was seen as a money-maker) In fact, the Chicago subways were basically built as New Deal projects, largely with federal money.
About the Norristown High Speed Line, does anyone know the horepower rating and max speed of these cars. I know that they can fly. Anyone rode on those cars? They can go at least 100 MPH.
When I used to go to school at Drexel University, I ventured out onto the Norristown Line a few times. I thought the cars were weird looking on the outside, but they're nice and comfortable inside. They can move fast. But can they really do 100 MPH? They only thing I don't like about the line is that it doesn't go to Center City Philadelphia; you have to transfer to the Market-Frankford El.
I don't think they exceed 80 mph, if that, and then only for a short stretch or two. They are weird, no doubt about it, but when I've ridden them they've usually been packed full or close to it. Back when the Bullets were running out there (as well as the old Strafford cars and the ex-CTA units) it was the same - SRO at rush hour, well-loaded even on the weekends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The N-5's don't exceed 55 mph, and bounce on the jointed rail that much of the line still has. A ride on an N-5 last year revealed that. Watching the rear speedometer each way, it never exceeded 55. The end-to-end times have increased. Look at an old PST timetable and the curent SEPTA one, and you'll see that running time has increased. Remember that Jack Leary pronounced the N-5's as "a complete disaster".
Maxium operating speed is 70 mph.
Larry,RedbirdR33
On the MBTA Green Line, going inbound from Kenmore Square (on the eastern end of the station), I've noticed a track branching off to the right, and another corresponding track coming in from the right on the outbound side. (Not to be confused with the branches at the western end of the station, which serve the C and D lines.) Any idea where these tracks go, or are they just two ends of a loop track?
-- David
Boston, MA
Its a loop. When the Kenmore Station was built, conversion of the Boylston subway to rapid transit was pondered. The loop would allow Beacon Street (though not Comm Ave) cars to turn at Kenmore.
When the LRVs were new they forgot to clearance test them there. They found out the hard way that there was a fouling point on the loop! Though no serious damage occurred......
That's interesting... Just last night, while packed onto a C car like a sardine, I was pondering the feasibility of converting the Green Line into a full-fledged rapid transit line. (Not just the Boylston Street subway, but the whole thing.)
I'll be the first to admit that the LRV's running on the surface certainly have a great deal of charm, but I think the ridership on this line would be better served by rapid transit. The Green Line is often packed to crush capacity at almost any time of the day, and the number and frequency of stops almost makes it feel like a bus route. I know it would never happen in this town, but I'd prefer to see a grade-seperated subway with longer trains and fewer, larger stations.
Perhaps even an el? I'm sure the residents of Brookline would love that idea. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
An el? Ask the Brookline folks to talk to the Washington Street corridor that formerly hosted the Orange Line el... They lost their el, and lost ALL RAIL SERVICE never to return again.
I believe there was a plan back in the 1960's to convert the Green Line subway and the Highland Branch to Riverside (today's 'D' route) to heavy-rail rapid transit. In the spirit of the times, the Commonwealth Ave., Beacon St. and Watertown lines which also pass through Kenmore would have been converted to bus operation.
As much as MBTA management wishes they could just stop running light rail vehicles tomorrow (and they do wish that, believe me), the Green Line as presently constituted is going to be around for a long time. The citizens of Brookline and Newton are well represented in the halls of the State House, and there are a lot of well-dressed professionals riding those trolleys.
- Jim (RailBus)
As much as MBTA management wishes they could just stop running light rail vehicles tomorrow (and they do wish that, believe
me)
At the urban ring meetings, there are plans to create another light rail and subway line. The idea is to recuce the number of connections at park street, so less people use the central subway.
Would it be possible to widen the green line, so each line had its own track? This way, there wouldn't be train jams during rush hours, and you could have a 24 hour subway running with the extra tracks. Also, it would help if triple cars were run during peak times, and doubles run on the weekends. These single car trains get to be a real joke. -Nick
Call me a skeptic, but I will be totally shocked if a new light rail line were to open in Boston. Look at the history. Watertown line - closed in 1969. Arborway line - operated sporadically during the 1970's and early 1980's, and closed for good beyond Heath Street in 1985 (and service on the street-running portion from Brigham Circle to Heath St. is interrupted every few years for "road construction" - how many times do they have to fix that mile or so of Huntington Avenue?). Mattapan-Ashmont line - the MBTA attempted to convert this line to a busway in 1980 or 1981 - expect another attempt to close this line when the PCC's finally wear out in 5 or 10 years.
More damning to the MBTA, look at what has happened over the past 10 years with new transit projects. The MBTA has bitterly resisted any and all attempts to build a light rail line on Washington Street from Dudley Square to downtown (the former Orange Line elevated route closed in 1987), even though this area is home to a heavily transit-dependent population and has had some high-powered political support behind it. Heck, the old tunnels still run along Tremont Street south of Boylston station - it would have been SO easy to tie in this new line to the existing Green Line network. But no. The current plan is to run "electric buses" (I guess the term 'trackless trolleys' is passe), ensuring that all Washington St. riders will have to transfer downtown to crowded trains to continue their journey.
The other new line is the 'Silver Line', which will run from the Boylston station/Chinatown area past South Station and on to the Fan Pier waterfront area. This line will be a subway route with stations. This, too, will be run with the electric buses.
So, if the MBTA has just passed up two new routes which scream 'light rail' in favor of 'electric buses', who or what is going to convince them to install light rail along the 'urban ring' route? I don't believe it's a question of money - billions have been poured into MBTA construction since the 1980's, so the money would have been there to build new light rail lines.
Sorry, I just don't see it happening in my lifetime. We'll all be riding Second Avenue express trains from the Bronx before we ride a light rail car along Boston's Urban Ring.
- Jim (RailBus)
I rode the Comm ave car from Allston to Mass Ave for years, and what it really screamed out for was an express track between Brighton Ave and Kenmore Square.
This could be done simply(?) by building a cut and cover subway directly underneath the existing tracks. The original incline out of the subway at Blandford street was made of wooden planks, as the plan was to extend the tunnel west anyway.
Comm ave is two lanes east and three lanes west:
Lane 1) People blocking traffic to make left turns
Lane 3) Eurotrash ***holes double parking their BMW's to pick up their transit-impaired girlfriends from BU
Lane 2) Everyone else
For construction, the third westbound lane would have temporary track laid down it, while one side of the existing ROW at a time would be dug out. Crane cars with electromagnets would lift the BMW's onto flat cars, the ransom money could finance the entire project.
Actually, I think if those guys can't find their car in a parking lot, they just go and buy another one anyway.
Biased,
Dave
P.S. did I mention that the subway concourse level could be used for freshman students to cross the street? It would keep them from milling about in traffic...
One teeny little thing - the Blandford Street Incline is not "on wooden planks". The incline is supported on I beams that support the incline, the tunnel actually extends farther than the incline. Supposdly that was done to allow extension without disrupting service.
I've been giving some thought to my own Green Line plan... So far it would entail:
1) Converting the subway portions of the D and E branches into full-fledged rapid transit lines using the same specs and rolling stock as the Red Line. The E branch would continue in a subway following the orginal streetcar alignment, and connect with the Orange Line at Forest Hills.
2) The B and C branches would probably remain light rail, but the platforms would be lengthened to accomidate 3 or 4-car trains. Particularly on the B branch, I'd be inclined to eliminate a few stops and increase the size of the remianing stops so as to speed up service a bit. The light rail lines would terminate at the Kenmore Square stop, with a free transfer to the rapid transit line.
3) The northern terminal of the Green Line would be extended to Tufts University in Somerville, as has been previously proposed. Only difference would be that it would be a rapid transit line instead of light rail.
Any thoughts?
On a somewhat related topic, what would keep the Orange and Blue Lines from using the same rolling stock as the Red Line as well? Obviously the Blue Line has shorter cars due to the sharp curve at Bowdoin. Assuming the Blue Line were extended past Bowdoin to at least the Charles/MGH stop on the Red Line, would there then be any reason for the Blue Line to have such short cars?
-- David
Boston, MA
The Blue Line tunnel to East Boston is too small for the larger profile Red Line cars, as it was originally a trolley tunnel. If the tunnel were large enough, a single order would have been made for both the Orange Line and Blue Line cars -- both to Orange Line specs. But the Blue Line cars had to be smaller.
I thought that the Blue and Orange line equipment was compatible. Do you mean that the equipment is compatible, but the tunnel under the harbor is not?
Blue line cars can run on the orange line but not vice versa.
Blue line cars also have pantographs, the orange line cars do not
(but I think they they can be installed)
Blue Line used to run on the Red Line in non-revenue service.
How did they get to the Red Line? The Blue and Red Lines have no track connection.
The Blue Line was originally built as a trolley subway - like the Green Line. Lines surface lines extended west onto Cambridge St and east past Maverick Square. The line between Bowdin and Maverick was converted into high level rapid transit in the early 1920's. The extension to Revere Beach did not occur until after WWII.
The only problem was that both Bowdin and Maverick ended in loops. There were no repair or storage facilities. The solution was to run elevated trains out onto Cambridge St via the trolley portal. The trains used trolley poles (pantagraphs were not introduced until the Revere Beach extension) and continued along Cambridge St and over the Longfellow Bridge. They joined the Red Line on the surface just before the portal to the Kendall Square Station.
I have not been back for many years. There used to be a portion of the fence on the north side of the ROW that was mounted on rollers. The fence would slide away to give the East Boston trains access to the Elliot St Yard.
Just where was this movable fence located? Do you mean it was just over the Longfellow Bridge near the Red Line portal in Kendall Square? If so, it is now gone. Probably done away with when Kendall Square was redesigned in the early 1980's.
Near the intersection of Main St & Memorial Dr (although the north side is called Cambridge Pkwy).
The gate is still there on the fence, and on the track roadbed you can see where the switch was; there's also a 3rd rail gap there.
Another piece of that plan was a proposed subway under Stuart Street, either to complement the Boylston Street subway or assume its role as a light rail collector/distributor.
There are a lot of former branches of the trolley line. Most that were street running (no private ROW) were cut back. Did Todd point you to the local railfan group's site yet ?
BTW, please obtain answers to all these questions so that you can include it in our "T" party July 16th ;-)
Mr t
BTW, on the NETRANSIT website there's a complete inventory of all the abandoned corridors, passageways, and entrances in the Boston subway system, compiled by Jonathan Belcher, who is well-respected for his accuracy.
Most that were street running (no private ROW) were cut back.
What about the Warren Ave Bridge for the Charlestown and Bunker Hill Lines?
I waited at 7th avenue for a downtown B or D train for about 15 minutes, this was in the afternoon.
An R68 train with no front letter, just bare flourescent bulbs in the sign passed and honked it's horn, it was out of service and did not stop. A D train arrived shortly after.
Also was at Whitehall street and there is a severe leaking problem at the south end of the platforms.
They've been fixing the water leak for at least 2 weeks.
Maybe the harbour is leaking through via the ground-water. If that be the case they have a real problem on their hands.
wayne
06/10/2000
[Also was at Whitehall street and there is a severe leaking problem at the south end of the platforms.]
Maybe the Whitehall was doing their impersonation of Chambers St, maybe even Canal St!
Bill "Newkirk"
Anybody know why they used to call the yard in upper Manhattan the "Ghost Yard"
Maybe it's the turn around underground yard on the #1, between 137th & 145th Streets (5 layup tracks plus a turn around track in between the up & downtown tracks).
Mr t__:^)
Thurston:
I've noticed the layup tracks at 137 St. At one time the IRT West side line terminated at 145 St.
BMTJeff
Only for a few weeks.
Before "Skip Stop" and a lot of the other tricks that the TA has tryed, the #1 turned around a lot of trains during the rush hour there. They would pull into the center track & a extra T/O would start it south.
Mr t__:^)
I know the only place (above ground) you could see it from, was the old Bronx Terminal market. I remember one morning, I noticed some lights moving across the river. Then, I realized what I was looking at. It was the 145th St IRT subway yard.
I heard a story (don't know where) that people in the yard (perhaps illegally, if you know what I mean) would hear ghost-like sounds. It was actually the wind coming off the river and making whisting sounds...
Any truth to this? Like I said, this is second (or third) hand.
The time logged on my last post reminded me of a discussion held by a group of railfans several months ago.
When a digital clock displays the time of 11:11, and it is noticed by a railfan, he will invariably say "Railroad Tracks".
I always think of a two track line. Two of the eight fans involved in the discussion stated that 11:11 reminded them of railroad ties, not the actual tracks.
When subtalkers see the time of 11:11 do they think of the steel rails or the wooden ties?
If they think of the steel rails, then 11:11:11 is only at DeKalb Avenue, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, or that short 6-track section around 135 St. on 8th Avenue. :-)
I have always looked at each 11 as the right and left rails of just one track. 11:11:11 would be a three track line!
I've seen the information posted on the NYC Subway Resources site about Mark's Subway Videos and Salaam Allah's Videos. Can anyone comment on the relative quality of these videos? Are they worth the average $20 asking price?
- Jim (RailBus)
Read back a ways. There's plenty of comments on both here in the discussion group. Most recently someone reviewed Salaam's Flushing line video (just yesterday I think).
Mark's videos are off the rocket!
Salaam's videos are depending upon...............
His #2/#5 Line video is awesome, but the #7 Line video could use a little editing and less getting on and off the train!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
........I thought on one segment that people wanted to see some run - bys etc....& the last of that 6 hour vidieo
on the # 7 line night & day was my last day there in new york & I didnt want to leave ......!!!!! ( oh well ) .....
this fall I intend to shoot in 5 hours formats with out getting off the train except to shoot the # 7 storage yards ...
this will be 5 hour formats day and night 10 hours aprox each line 2 4 5 6 7 ..........
thank you for your support brother .......
I have the 7, Q and A Line, I only wished there was more filmed during daylight hours then at night, but I enjoyed them.
thats what i am aming for far rockways during the daylight this october 2000 re shoot this in 5 hour formats .........
.. R142 Boi 2K ....I only had less than a week to ""hurry up & shoot as much as i could"" about 6 days or so .
Now if I lived in new york like mark does I would have much more time . & could shoot over and over again etc..
It was like football in the fourth quarter with that "HURRY UP OFFENCE"" if you know what I mean.......
I bought two of Marks earlier in the year. Both quality and prentation are excellent. There is no dialogue, but I like that, just like standing at the railfan window. I would not like to video it myself, but for a few pounds Mark does it for me. The No 7 Express is the best.
Simon
Swindon UK
.....when i shot these vidieos i did it for my enjoyment & the historical experementation of it as well..............
I did not intend for this to be a ratings war etc..... however I do wish to give my thanks to the webmaster
for the chance to share these vidieos with others as well & I thank those who have given my vidieos excellent
reviews ....!!...no complaints I have heard from anyone who bought any of my 6 to 8 hour long vidieos ...
I intend to re shoot this fall ( hopefully this fall - october 2000 ) called ""PROJECT REDBIRD"".......thank you ....
regardless of quality level,
if it's a $20 pop for another SubTalker
you know it's "stayin' in the family"
and well worth it.
Cheers to Mark AND Salaam
Agreed. I have one of Mark's video and have enjoyed it. The best part is watching in Surround Sound Stereo. My living room sounds like you on the train with all the noises and rumbling. Just need to add a wide screen TV to complete the set. Unfortunately, the tenants downstair aren't to thrilled, but I'm working on it.
Way to go Mark!
....For your information I enhance the audio on my vidieos they are recorded in hi -fi stereo too &
with the enhancements I am sure you home theatre will reproduce this quite well......
If you request a BASS boost can be added look out ......each vidieo is 6 to 8 hours long not bad for $ 20.oo each..
..
All the more reason to add a subwoofer. Heypaul's audio tape of the R-1/9s sounds remarkably good even without one. Having a nice, beefy 500-watt power amp helps.
Mark's definately are - I own a couple and have seen many of them (I've been with Mark when he did some of the filming a couple of years ago). Salaam's have also received favorable reviews from everyone that I've talked to, and although I haven't seen one personally, I've talked to enough people to say they must be good as well. Either way I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks everybody.
--Mark
...........same here ......!!! see you this fall OCTOBER 2000 & a new website with a link to nyc subway resources.....
& a special thanks to nysubway.org and - SUBTALK ......!!!
Has anybody seen a video on the Chicago system that came out some 5 years ago? A lot of the equipment in it is now total history.
......where do you order this tape ?? because since they whent to O P T O you cant shoot a railfan vidieo anymore !!!
What is the best placement for a subway station. Is it at an intersection like most of the stations of the MFL and BSL or is it in the middle of a city block like the stations on PATCO. I tend to like the locust St. subway and each station serving 2 streets.
Well.. in New York most stations already do serve two streets with exits at each end. They just don't name them in the PATCO manner.
(Well.. in New York most stations already do serve two streets with exits at each end. They just don't name them in the
PATCO manner).
One exception being 47th-50th Street on the 6th Avenue line.
Good point, Dave.
I've always wondered why "47-50 Street" was so named on the IND 6th Ave. line, while most other stations only use a single street in their names.
Maybe because it goes for 3 blocks instead of the usual 1 or 2, I think. It's really at 49 St. but the jewelry district is at 47 and Radio City Music Hall is at 50, so they stretched the names a bit. Then again, W. 4 St. station goes from 3rd to 8th, with no exit at 4th, so go figure.
In Philadelphia, each block is twice the size of a NYC block (1/10 mile vs. 1/20 mile), so to have an exit at both corners was a big deal in 1954, I guess.
If that station were to be named for tourists, it would have to be:
"Avenue of the Americas/Radio City Music Hall/Rockefeller Center."
ding dong, watch the clozin' dawz, please.
Oh, no..... Not like Washington. Then we'd have the "Times Square/Duffy Square/Helen Hayes Theater/Virginia Theater/Gershwin Theater/JumboTron/NewYearsEveBall/Shmata District/No More Peep Shows/Bus Terminal/Nearly Circle Line/Virgin MegaStore/Army Recruiting Bldg./George M. Cohan Statue" station.
Makes me think back to the Concourses thread...47-50 is directly connected to Rockerfeller Center. The passageways there go all over the area from about 45th to 52nd Streets, between 5th and 6th Ave.
-Hank
Typically a station is either located where a major trip generator exists or is about to be built. For instance Penn Sta(NY or 30th or suburban or Reading Terminal etc) or Rock. Ctr. which dates from the same era IIRC as the 6th Ave IND. The concourse designs generally were a wonderful effort at convenience or in one case along 6th Ave placating political muscle. Years ago there was a tunnel/concourse system linking the actual track level platforms of 30th St to the fare control mezzanine of the MFL/subway surface lines. These were sealed off 25 plus years ago for the usual sanitation/security problems. Its too bad because they allowed a link completely out of the weather AND physically shorter--better connections--yay! The center city concouses mentioned above were at one time even more comprehensive--BobW has a map.
with my new subway travel route I have been getting some experiance running around the underground maze of concorses that lie under the hart of Philly. I am quite surprised my the extensiveness of the Philly concorses. They run on 8th St. for a block or 2 to cover the patco and BRS stations and along Market from 8th to the market East station at 11th/12th. There is also a passage from the 13th St. station to suburban station and from Suburban station over to 15th and City Hall stations. You can also get from the city Hall complex to the old Grayhound terminal at 17th. The neatest concourse is the huge one that runs under broad St. from city hall south to spruce. The passage is the entire width of broad St. and at locust there is a passage that runs fron 16th St. all the way to 12th to serve the 2 PATCO stations there. I was wondering if there are any extensive concourse conplexes in new York city or any other cities for that matter. In Philly, for example, the concourse system can be used by cheap skates as an alternatice to the subway for trips into the down town. It can also be used by bussiness people who don't want to get wet or snowed on. Are there any other cities in the world that also have concourse systems?
Chicago has a rather extensive Pedway system that connects a number of downtown office buildings and subways. It's possible to walk from the Randolph Street Metra station all the way to City Hall without stepping outside.
I've also noticed that Boston seems to have a rather elaborite system of passages connecting the downtown subway stations. I haven't yet figured out where they all go, since they're every bit as confusing as the street patterns above.
Cincinnati, while lacking a proper transit system, has a rather extensive system of skywalks throughout the downtown area. They're convenient, but they also have the unfortunate side effect of pulling much-needed pedestrian traffic away from the streets and sidewalks, sapping some of the vitality away from an otherwise nice downtown area.
-- David
Boston, MA
Et aussi il-y'a Montreal et Paris avec les concources-a-pied.
NYC has several that are still open:
1- WTC to Chambers Street
2- Herald Square-32nd to 36 street
3- Inside the paid area: Broadway/Seventh Ave at 40th to 8th avenue and 40th to 44th.
4- Jay Street IND
Iam sure there are others but these will get you started
I've also thought how amazing that concourse is. You can basically cover all of CC from the Ave of the Arts to Suburban Station to the Municipal Bldg, SEPTA HQ and City Hall underground on foot.
The South Broad Concourse is the best. It's so large and impressive. It's the kind of place you'd shoot a subway scene in. It's like a NYC subway mezzanine.
Calgary has an enclosed elevated walkway system called "+15" that connects much of downtown. I seem to remember that Lexington, KY, also has a downtown walkway system, though there's not as much to connect there. :-)
How deep to most subways run and what is the depth limit for a practical cut and cover construction. One "level" down is where the turnstyles are next to the tracks, 1.5 levels also has them next to the tracks, but there is room for a crossover. 2 levels down has the fare control above the tracks in its own seperate level. is cut and cover feasable for a depth of 2 or more levels. Or at that point is the subway tunnel just tunneled. the Subway surface tunnel in Philly is quite deep and i would estimate it at 2.5-3 levels down. I know that some stations around river tubes or hills can be extremely deep, but i am more interested in the "typical" subway line.
Although cut and cover is practical down to thiry feet, the real problem in mature urban areas is the existing inrastructure of electric, gas, telephone, water and sewers already buried. Sometinmes it is cheaper to tunnel under that stuff.
Cut and cover is certainly feasible down about 30 feet if you digging in the countryside. In mature urban areas the real problem is what else is buried where you want to go. Sometimes it is better to tunnel under to avoid the infrastructure already in place.
If you'll check the line-by-line accoutns in the IND, IRT, and BMT we have numerous depths listed for your reivew.
When the all-night Market Street bus (train replacement)in Philadelphia is running, does it stop at 19th and 22nd Streets, or does it skip those two stations the way the train does? I've haven't had occasion to use the line after midnight and was just wondering...
The 10, 13 and 36 still run 24/7 (except Mondays mornings early) so they make the subway stops. There are other Market Street buses but I don't which, if any, are Nite Owl routes.
To answer your question, yes the bus does skip those stations.
Boston residents to the MBTA management: SLOW DOWN THE RED LINE! You won't believe why. Read about it in the Boston Globe.
Sounds good. Inconvienience a few thousand commuters so that a dozen wealthy homeowners can stop their dishes from rattling.
Of course, it really does depend on how noisy it is. I mean, you can't hear NYC subway trains going by. Perhaps the MBTA has screwed up. I'm a little surprised that it's been 13 YEARS since they replaced the tracks, and the people are bitching NOW.
-Hank
On the Sea Beach near the Bay Parkway station, there's a fruit store that's built on top of the open cut tracks. Everytime a train passes, the ground shakes!
The Sea Beach has that effect on its surroundings. If it were the Brighton, it would sound like a choo-choo train and the fruit market would make the train shake.
Yea, but that's because the Sea Beach doesn't exceed 25 mph.
We used to hear the F (originally D) train pass underneath the Beverly Theater at Church and McDonald Avenues in Brooklyn. Every 5-8 minutes the movie had this great shaking effect. This was truly a special theater. The screen had a huge dripping stain from a canteloupe(??) that someone threw at it years before.
Here's an odd situation: The HIP center on Queens Blvd. and Grand Ave shakes (the ground only) when a Manhattan bound train goes by on the Queens Blvd line.
Try Park Avenue in mid 40ties. The MN trains really shake it.
Arti
There was no MN in the mid-40s :-)
Yeah, geez, I know - a whole 54 seconds.
Stefan
That's the neighbor's estimate. I'm skeptical.
Damn NIMBY's! I always wondered why the Oyster Bay line and Pt.Washington lines here on the north shore were so slow.
It's the damn neighboors! They complain about horns and speed.
Then why did they move in next to a railroad!
It's the same mentality when it comes to commercial development, they don't want it because of a fear of traffic, but it's OK to build fancy expensive homes for rich SOB's and closing off a major road because of the sewers needed for the homes, causing a huge traffic jam.
It's sad when a few people try and often succeed in making life harder and less fun for everybody else.
.........they need to move out here on the west coast........EARTHQUAKE COUNTRY......that will shut them up fast ..!!!
Beacon Hill: Money talks, and they've got it!
I got an idea, to slow the trains build a station on that stretch of track. I bet the uppidy ups with the money don't want access for the undesirables that ride the subway. But a station stop would slow the trains down!!
The area of track in question is already very close to the Charles/MGH stop.
-- David
Boston, MA
It is interesting to note that the section of Beacon Hill effected by the subway tunnel was a working class immigrant community (largely Jewish at the time I believe) when the subway tunnel was built in the early part of the century. Now it is all yuppies, and they don't like the tunnel!
If the rubber dampening mats were sucessful in other places, then they should probably install them.
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon, Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ (Exchange Place stops on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail)
WHEN: June 7- June 30 (weekdays, 9am-3pm)
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez 201.420.1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her Dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the Powerhouse exhibit.
EXHIBIT: "The Powerhouse Show": 24 Artists Inspired by the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse
ARTISTS: Michelle Piano, Heidi Curko, Michael Fauerbach, Denis Luzuriaga, Franc Palaia, Matt Johnson, Robert Casey, Toon,
Peter Delman, Arturo D’Anhili, Terrence Barrell, Edith Marcik, Celia Wetzel, Keith Gunderson, Leon Yost, Kay Kenny, Peter
Zirnis, Orlando Cuevas, Barbara Stork, Wei Jane Chir, Kathryn Klanderman, Scott Pfaffman, Margret Murphy, Michael Longo
WHERE: Fleet Bank, One Exchange Place, Jersey City, NJ (Exchange Place stops on the PATH and NJ Transit Light Rail)
WHEN: June 7- June 30 (weekdays, 9am-3pm)
OPENING RECEPTION: Wed June 14, 5-8pm.
CONTACT: Peter Zirnis 212.633-5331 (Exhibit contact); Ben Garcia 201.200-1700 (Fleet Bank contact); John Gomez
201.420.1885 (Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy contact)
VIRTUAL PREVIEW GALLERY: www.jerseycityhistory.net
Fleet Bank is hosting "The Powerhouse Show" where 24 artists celebrate one of Jersey City’s best loved landmarks, the Hudson and
Manhattan Railroad Powerhouse on Washington Boulevard. Just a few blocks from Exchange Place and across the street from the
WALDO artist district, the huge brick structure with its three black steel smokestacks dominated the waterfront landscape for
decades and is a singular reminder of Jersey City’s industrial past. The building boom of the last few years has changed this area
dramatically as empty lots sprout high rises and older buildings make way for new office towers. Amid the change, the artists want
to remind us all that some things are worth preserving and that in the rush for the new we should be careful not to destroy what we
might later regret. In photography, painting, sculpture and drawing the artists call attention to this building and what it means to us
now and might mean for future generations. Elise Knudson and her Dancers will come from Brooklyn to perform at the opening
while a local group, Friends of Harry, will provide the music. In addition to Fleet Bank, the show is sponsored by Pro Arts and the
Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy. Visit the Landmarks Conservancy’s website at www.jerseycityhistory.net to see previews of the
Powerhouse exhibit.
Yesterday, I took a class trip to Washington D.C.
Though there was little in the way of rail-related things our last stop was an hour in Union Station and I must say it was impressive. IMHO the best train station I've seen(and I've just about every one of them from Boston south).
The exterior was beautiful and the interior wasn't any less incredible. The ceiling was magnificent. I was urprised that most of the station was a shopping mall/food court but it didn't detract greatly from the stations grandeur.
I plan to make another trip there myself this summer and will explore it more on my own.
I went hunting for the R110b at Euclid. I was there at 3:05 because I took the A Train. Man those R44's are fast!. The only problem is that The R44 number 5326 was taken out of service because 207th street ordered that Train out of service immediately. plus I saw an R44 on the middle track. They brought us in on the Local track, and the motorman took the middle train and the R44 on the local(5326) was taken to Pitkin yard.
The main problem is that every time u guys talk about the R110B, I think it is in service. However, the R110B wasn't at Euclid in its time slot, and the Crew dispatcher said she hasn't seen it all week. And if the Crew dispater didn't see it, it hasn't been running. Unless somehow all of you can prove otherwise.
Somebody said that he saw it Thursday running northbound on the C around noon.
I did not see it today. I think they run it every once in a while just to make sure ir's still working
I did forget to mention that the R110B doesn't always make that 1:43 slot. IT ALWAYS MAKES THE 9:56a/10:06a out of 168th!! ALWAYS! SAME CREW!!!!!!!
But the 143p trip is alternate!
R142 Boi 2K
An early reminder for anyone making plans for a chat. Nobody showed up last Saturday (I didn't either, so I don't actually know if anybody came).
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I was wondering if all you Railfans out there had an opinion. I am unsure which Railcars I like more. I like The R44's for their speed, but I hate their brake noises. The R46 I like as well, but it takes alot of Air to stop a R46.
So if any of you can tell me which car you like better and Y, it would help me alot.
I am unclear as to what you mean when you say the R-46 takes a lot of air to stop. Can you explain it?
Performance wise, they're interchangeable. Asthetically, they're interchangable. However, the mechanical problems of the R44, even after their GOH makes the R46 a better car IMHO.
I love the R-44SI best, tinted windows and switch to unlock storm doors, as well as frequent high speeds in certain areas. No annoying ambient noise or incorrect digital sign. Unlinked cars mean trains arranged in odd ways, the #1 end of a car attached to the #2 end of the next, cab cars with the cab end attached to a blind trailer. Cool speedometers. Brake sounds less noticeable. PATH-Style horn. Bus maps instead of subway maps. Few ads. No annoying grey stripe. 3-digit car numbers. Front destination sign.
Only annoyance: Empty frame for glass pane in walls by the doors. Can't lean on it like regular R-44, can't put arm there like R-46.
From the standpoint of the operating personell, the R46 is a superior car. Roomier cab with a sliding storm door which you can leave propped open a bit to get some additional A/C inside the cab. Please expand on your assertion that you need a lot of air to stop an R46. What bring down the speed of a subway train is the dynamic brake, the air brakes come on at 5 to 10 MPH. I don't need any more air to stop an R46 than I need to stop any other subway car.
Do all cars have dynamics, or are the older ones stricly air brakes?
I sure the topic of "regenerative" braking has been dicussed here before, has it ever been investigated by the TA. It seems now with the quantum leaps in flywheel technology, that it might be time to RE-investigate..
Dave
All present equipment, for that matter everything from the R10 up from l948 has had dynamic brake. If a car is a "dead motor" the air automatically takes over for all braking. Almost all of the prewar equipment was all-air but I'd make a few exceptions.. BMT Multi's [mid 30's] for one..I think the Westinghouse ones had dynamic and the GE's had an eddy-current brake; I'd assume some other BMT experimentals did, but won't swear to it. Regenerative braking has been around over l00 years; I read in an old Railroad magazine of many years ago that it was tried on a Manhattan el locomotive in the early days of electrification; the Milwaukee's electrification apparently used it [going back to l9l5] and correct me if I'm wrong The R l42 and Rl43 are supposed to have it.I asked a motor instructor back in the 70's why we didn't have it (NYCT) there and he said there'd be too many power surges so the power got burned off in grids, just as on diesel locomotives. Guess new technology has solved that problem[????].
Someone will ask, so I think I'll put the answer up now.
Dynamic (or resistance) braking reverses the current flow to the motors by rerouting the connections from supply source to a resistance grid, where the electrical current is converted to heat, ala a toaster.
Regenerative braking routes the current back to the supply source. It's more efficient, and creates less heat.
-Hank
What are eddy-current brakes?
Eddy-current braking was a silly idea that they fooled around
with while trying to figure out how to control dynamic braking.
It relies on the principle of eddy currents circulating in a
metal disk. The disk is mounted on the axle shaft. A coil produces
a magnetic field which penetrates the surface of the disk. The
rotation of the disk induces local voltage gradients in the disk
which causes little rings of eddy current to flow. These react
with the magnetic field and produce a retarding torque.
The same principle, in reverse, is used in vane-type AC signal
relays.
"Regenerative braking routes the current back to the supply source. It's more efficient, and creates less heat."
If you refer to supply source as where the vehicle gets the power from (trolley or third rail) and not the substation, then the term supply source applies.
Most substations are equipped with reverse power relays that disconect the generators/diodes from the transmission system if power tries to go "in" instead of "out".
When SEPTA started receiving the K cars they had to run them in straight dynamic mode until the ex-PRT/PTC substations could be re-equipped with faster-acting reverse power relays. Once that was done, the K's were reset to regen mode.
On the Baltimore Metro (our 1 line subway), you can tell when a train in the same section is in braking as the ventilation fans speed up and slow down as the third rail voltage goes up and down. The trains themselves never notice.
The R-142/142A and R-143 cars will have AC propulsion and regenerative braking. They will also have some resistor grids, though not as many as present equipment, for times when the third rail is not receptive to taking current from the trains.
David
That does not make sense. The braking force supplied by dynamic or regnerative braking is a function of the current supplied. This force does not care whether the current is being used to heat up a resistor grid or to provide power to a neigboring train.
If there is no neigboring train available, then a resistor grid will be required for electric braking. If the resistor grid does not provide the same current drain as a neighboring train, then the braking system will exhibit different braking characteristics. Such random differences in braking profile on the same train is not consistent with safe operation.
If the resistor grid does provide the same current drain then a consistent braking profile is maintained along with safe operation. However, you stated that the resistor grid for the new trains is smalller than on older models. In order to reconcile the smaller resistor grid and it simultaneously providing a drain equivalent to a neighboring train, one would have to conclude that electric braking would play a less significant role in braking (vis-a-vis air brakes) on the new cars than on the present fleet.
I merely reported information I was given several years ago. It could be wrong.
I think I'll defer on this one to someone who knows more about AC propulsion and dynamic braking than I do...any takers (besides Mr. Bauman, who has already answered)?
David
Umm, Stephen, what David means is that the size of the grid
resistor bank will be smaller because of the elimination of
accelerating resistance.
The braking force supplied by dynamic or regnerative braking is a function of the
current supplied
This statement is not correct. The most correct statement is that
the instantaneous braking force is proportional to the electrical
generating power developed in the motors divided by the
instantaneous speed. Therefore, it is a function of both voltage
and current being delivered. The amount of resistance in the
circuit is variable.
It is true that for conventional dynamic braking with DC motors,
braking force increases with motor current (but not linearly).
In the type of traction used on the R142 order, which uses 3-phase
induction motors, the solid-state control is able to vary both
the generated voltage and current. This is essential because
during regen braking the output voltage back into the contact
rail must be closely regulated. Effectively you have two voltage
sources (the generating train and the substation) in parallel.
what David means is that the size of the grid resistor bank will be smaller because of the elimination of accelerating resistance.
That clears up this matter.
The braking force supplied by dynamic or regnerative braking is a function of the current supplied
This statement is not correct. The most correct statement is that the instantaneous braking force is proportional to the electrical generating power developed in the motors divided by the instantaneous speed. Therefore, it is a function of both voltage and current being delivered. The amount of resistance in the circuit is variable.
You are quite correct. I had been assuming two electric brakes with identical voltage and motor speed with one supplying regenerative current to another train and the other supplying current to a resistor grid. I neglected to state that point explicitly. Thank you for catching this oversight.
Ah, AC inverters. So now are the trains are going to make that whining noise on startup?
I liked the original speedometers on the R-46s. The neatest thing was the ascending "whoo-ooooo-ooo" sound as they started up from a dead stop.
And their unique "whistle" sound when the brakes were released. That sound is a close second to the pre GOH "Darth Vader" sound the R40-42's made on my favorite sound list.
Friday evening, Discovery Channel 8pm EST
Sunday evening, Travel Channel 9pm EST
Sunday evening, Learning Channel 9pm EST
Exactly what would one be taping?
-Hank
That same subway show under the guise of "On The Inside" on Discovery Channel. That's what the one was last night (Friday) at 8 p.m. It's been run so much lately I'm getting tired of seeing it.
Now that it appears that there can be nothing in the way of the 2nd Av. Subway being built,
a question arises:
Should the 2nd Av. Subway be built to IRT or BMT standards?
There are good reasons for both. The B,D,F,Q are maxed out right now, as are the 4,5,6
(everyone knows about the problems on the 4,5,6 due to the recent controversy over eliminating
the Dyre Av. Express run). Therefore what should be done? Should the 2nd Av. Subway be built to
IRT standards to relieve congestion on the Lexington Tubes, or should the 2nd be built to BMT
standards, to help patrons of the BDFQ?
I believe both have merits, and that the 2nd Av. Subway should benifit BOTH boroughs. Therefore
I have my own idea:
Build the 2nd Av. Subway to BMT Standards, but rebuild the Jerome Av.
El to BMT standards.
BRONX
Between the tail of the El (Woodlawn Cemetery) and 161st, it is Elevated,
and to the best of my knowledge it would not take too much to rebuild all the platforms and
remount the signals. The #4 would be reclassified as an IND division train and renamed. South
of 161st (where the #4 goes into the tunnel) the existing tunnel would be abandoned and a new
tunnel would be built, paralell to the existing tunnel. A free transfer station would be built
at 149th and Grand to connect to the #5 and the #2. However, just south of 149th the line would
veer east (before interfering with the ramps that allow the #5 and #4 to merge) and then turn
south again underneath Lincoln. A free transfer to the #6 at 138th and Lincoln would be built.
After that the line would tunnel under the Harlem River and run under 2nd Av.
UPPER MANHATTAN AND MIDTOWN
Where the stations on the 2nd Av. Subway should be, I don't have an opinion on. Whether the 2nd
Av. should be a two track with just express tracks, or a four track with express tracks in the
middle and local on outside I also don't have an opinion on. That should be left to politics to
decide. However free transfers to all crossing subways would be a must.
LOWER MANHATTAN
At 2nd and Houston, a station directly under the IND (F line) 2nd Av. Station with a free
transfer would be built. A track connection between the 2nd Av. Subway and the B,D,Q lines
(Manhattan Bridge), although it wouldn't be used in revenue service at first. Instead the line
would continue to run souh underneath the Bowery. The line would run all the way down past Fulton,
stopping at Whitehall to merge with the BMT tubes that currently carry the N,R,M lines. The B
would be rerouted to use the BMT tubes as far as Whitehall and the run in the 2nd Av. subway all
the way to the end of the Jerome Av. El. At some future point there could possibly be a line
that used the Manhattan Bridge to the 2nd Av. Subway, but it would not run when the 2nd Av. first
opened. Also, the 2nd Av. Station at Whitehall would be a NEW station, built perpendicular to the
existing Whitehall Station (since the tracks need to turn off from the BMT tubes onto Water
before the existing Whitehall Station). Part of the project would be free transfer links between
the Existing Whitehall St., the new Whitehall St. for the 2nd Av. Subway, and the South Ferry IRT
station.
That's about it for what I think the 2nd Av. Subway should be. I think building it to IRT standards
would be a mistake, since thnaer IRT trains can't carry am eope as the BMT and IND sized trains can.
Running the #4 (to become the nortern end of the B) on 2nd Av. would leave the Lexington Express
tracks open to full usage by the #5, so that increased service on both 5 tails would be possible.
---Abe
Though built to larger specs, do IND/BMT cars really carry that many more people than IRT cars do?
I also still stand by my Second Avenue/Co-Op City Light Rail line.
Now I'm officially the bad guy of SubTalk:)
I don't know about the number of people, but they are noticeably smaller, especially if you don't ride on the IRT often.
Simple enough.. figure square footage of floor space roughly 450 for IRT cars, 600 for 60 foot B Div, and about 750 for 75 footers. Not right on the money but see the difference.
Seating capacity on an IRT R33 is 32. On an IND/BMT R32, it's 48. I'm not sure about the number of standees per car, but given that an R32 is 9' longer and 1' wider, I'd assume that a 10 car division B train could carry a lot more passangers than an IRT train of similiar build.
yes which is why the 2nd av. should be built BMT. Then reroute all the other trains across the NRM tubes and reinstate K trains using the Chrystie St. Connection.
BZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong :-)
Seating capacity on all IRT equipment CURRENTLY operating (leaving out the R-110A and the R-142/142A, that is) is 44. Seating capacity on the R-32 (and R-38, for that matter) is 50. Additionally, the R-40/40M and R-42 have 44 seats (wider doors mean fewer seats); the R-44 and R-46 seat between 70 and 76 depending on configuration; and the R-68 and R-68A seat 72.
David
Light rail? It doesn't begin to have the capacity for this corridor!
What's your idea about a 2nd Avenue/Co-Op City Light Rail Line? What advantages would it have over heavy rail? How would it not interfere with traffic if built on the surface?
my handle may be "light rail rules" but i for one am smart enough to know that light rail will not work serving downtown new york. it can't carry enough people! I am all for crosstown light rail lines in the outer boroughs (see my other post on the nostrand av. one) but anything spoking into or out of manhattan should be heavy rail...
All plans I've heard of call for using B div. specs. You were right about it being better to handle more people. In fact, one idea from about 20 years ago called for reducing the IRT to basically a sort of Manhattan loop.
You actually could convert the line down as far as Grand Central to BMT, but then both lines from the North and South would have to end there, or I wonder why they never considered reducing the IRT to its original route: 242nd St, across 42nd St. to Atlantic Avenue, and coverting the rest to B div. Jerome, Pelham, Nostrand and Eastern Pkwy/Livonia are all Dual Contracts. Modification would be done around Nevins, (the connection of the convertable Clark St line to the outer branches) and even the 2 & 5 lines could probably be modified as well. (The outer portion of the line is also Dual Contracts. Even the curve connecting it to the Lexington is Dual Contracts, and does not look as tight as it seems; no sharper than BMT City Hall, Malbone, etc.).
You would lose through uptown-downtown service on both sides, but Bronx riders would have their own larger capacity line to grand Central, and Brooklyn riders would have an additional BMT line to Times Square, plus the through IRT service from Van Cortlandt and upper West Side to lower East side and Atlantic terminal.
The Lexington service to Grand Central could also be funneled into 2nd Avenue, and maybe the 7th Avenue service into Broadway and 63rd St.
06/10/2000
"2nd Ave. subway should be built to BMT STANDARDS"
BMT Standards, that has a nice ring to it!
Bill "Newkirk"
[You would lose through uptown-downtown service on both sides]
And there you have it.
But the West side would still have the original IRT route, as well as the 8th Av IND, and the East side the 2nd Av. It would actually make getting from the upper West Side to the lower East side much easier. (It can be a nuisance now)
ROUTES would be:
1 42nd St TS--S. Ferry
2 42nd St TS--Flatbush
3 42nd St TS--New Lots
4 Woodlawn--Grand Central
5 238th or Dyre*--Grand Cental
6 Pelham--Grand Central
9 242nd--Brooklyn Bridge (local)
12 241st**--Utica (exp in Brooklyn & Manhattan)
13 148th-- Utica (exp in Brooklyn & Manhattan)
*Dyre might be connected to 2nd Av, instead
**IRT cars would have extensions so they could stop at the same platforms as the larger cars.
It sounds like a good idea, but to make it work, you'd need through service, and that implies a lot of construction.
On the West Side, this might mean hooking the lower 7th Avenue IRT into the BMT Broadway line at Times Square. The Upper 7th Avenue IRT would follow the original route.
On the East Side, this might mean extending the Lexington Avenue line all the way down to 14th Street, and hooking it into the BMT Broadway line, which would become an east side line along its entire length.
The BMT Broadway Line would thus be integrated into the former Dual Contracts IRT, with through north/south service on both the East and the West sides. The BMT between 42nd St and 14th Street would be converted to a yard. The original IRT route would be restored as a sort of museum route.
All in all, however, would any of this be as important as the Second Avenue subway which (for fiscal reasons) probably won't be built anyway?
[On the East Side, this might mean extending the Lexington Avenue line all the way down to 14th Street, and hooking it into the BMT Broadway line, which would become an east side line along its entire length. ]
Why not to do it at 63rd Street? Then there would be ample capacity for GCT to Wall St area riders.
Arti
hello? anybody? the lex already DOES go to 14th. DUH
H
HEELOO TOO!
Arti
NO! The Dual Contracts Lexington Ave Line connects to the original IRT subway south on 42nd St. This subway runs on Park Ave.
There was a pre-Dual-Contracts proposal to build a Lexington Ave line which would go down Lexington Ave to 14th St, and then down Broadway to City Hall, and then down Church St. to South Ferry.
NO!
Lexington Avenue ends at Gramercy Park North, aka East 21ST Street.
(The lex already DOES go to 14th. DUH )
I advise dropping the insulting tone unless you fully understand what is being discussed.
The original subway is the only part of the system than cannot handle the wider, longer, B division trains.
If the Lexington Avenue line, which was built later and larger, was extended south and connected to the BMT Broadway line, it could handle the larger trains. The original subway would return to its original route, which is NOT up Lexington Avenue.
[Why not to do it at 63rd Street? Then there would be ample capacity for GCT to Wall St area riders.
Arti]
Reminds me of one of my favorite proposals--hook the BMT express into the Metro North tracks at 63rd, and run superexpress service from the Bronx/Harlem to Lower Manhattan, with one stop at 59th for a transfer from the Lex local and express. You could run direct Metro North service during peak periods too, and trains from LGA. In the opposite direction, you could run LIRR direct service to downtown or a superexpress from Jamaica and JFK express service which would go through to LGA!
The East Side capacity problem is really kind of imaginary when you think about it.
How about using half the Metro North line right up Park Ave, from wherever up to Wakefield? Presto at least 2 tracks for more East Side service, and the Bronx section of the 3rd Ave, el replaced..or more likely what WAS 3rd Ave. el. Maybe even the New Haven line too... then to Coop city. If only railfans had the capital to back all the ideas. How about approaching the Rothschilds... they built the IRT, Northen Pacific, and gosh knows how many others. Interesting that except to add a 2nd Ave, line there are cheap and existing options avalable for things that are sorely needed.
It would really make sense just to re-open the 86th St. station on the Metro North line. That and run a commuter rail service between Penn Station and New Rochelle via Coop city. All the tracks are there, and commuter rail staions are very cheap to build.
By the way, the subway and Metro North have fundamentally incompatible power and signalling systems.
Assuming both go to CBTC then the system can be compatible.
However, not only does MN have a different voltage, it has a different third rail! in MN the shoe (part that sticks out from the train to contact the 3rd rail) is under the rail, is help up by springs and the top of the rail is not charged. In the subway and LIRR the rail is overruning, where the shoe travels on top of the rail by gravity and a separate cover is necessary. LIRR and MN are 750V, the subway is 600V.
[Assuming both go to CBTC then the system can be compatible.
However, not only does MN have a different voltage, it has a different third rail! in MN the shoe (part that sticks out from the train to contact the 3rd rail) is under the rail, is help up by springs and the top of the rail is not charged. In the subway and LIRR the rail is overruning, where the shoe travels on top of the rail by gravity and a separate cover is necessary. LIRR and MN are 750V, the subway is 600V.]
The voltage isn't much of a problem--trains could be designed to run well on either. The third rail is more of a problem, but I can't believe there isn't a reasonable solution. There are all sorts of mechanical possibilities that would allow a train to change from one standard to the other. Dual retractable shoes, a convertible shoe. Or better yet, since mechanical devices add a failure point, you could come up with some intermediate standard and change MN over--how about a third rail that's supported from the side to allow both over and under running shoes? The new rails could be added segment by segment without significant service disruptions. Then, once they were entirely in place, MN stock would be equipped on a rolling basis with over-running shoes that would work on both the new MN rails and the subway/LIRR rails . . .
I'd prefer that they install catenary everywhere.
why?
Catenary is better than third rail. If you want to standardize commuter rail, do it right.
What makes it better?
That's a nice solution, actually. But it would be way expensive . . . .
Actually my thoughts weren't to share the track.. even though having one type of 3rd rail for all 3 systems [MN,NYCT,LIRR]would be a good idea. I was thinking of NYCT having 2 tracks, MN 2 tracks but would 2 tracks handle all MN traffic? perhaps. There's the matter of NYCT not being an FRA railroad (fed. regulation) and whether trackage could be shared with a syatem that is under the FRA. On the other hand as seen in Chicago there doesn't seem to be a problem with shared right of way itself. Just another idea, other than money no good reason it couldn't be done.Of course the 2nd Ave. subway is still the way to go, B division standards.
[Actually my thoughts weren't to share the track.. even though having one type of 3rd rail for all 3 systems [MN,NYCT,LIRR]would be a good idea. I was thinking of NYCT having 2 tracks, MN 2 tracks but would 2 tracks handle all MN traffic? perhaps. There's the matter of NYCT not being an FRA railroad (fed. regulation) and whether trackage could be shared with a syatem that is under the FRA. On the other hand as seen in Chicago there doesn't seem to be a problem with shared right of way itself. Just another idea, other than money no good reason it couldn't be done.Of course the 2nd Ave. subway is still the way to go, B division standards.]
There are so many ways you can work this--but I think there are strong reasons it would be desireable to share the track. For one thing, you could offer direct downtown MN and LIRR service using B div sized hybrid vehicles via the Broadway BMT. MN>2 outside tracks>BMT express at 63rd St>downtown>Atlantic Avenue Station>Atlantic Avenue Branch>Jamaica. Add JFK-LGA service and Bronx/Brooklyn superexpress services to the mix. And (this makes my blood boil, LOL) after the downtown direct service trains turn off at 63rd Street, the LIRR trains would come in and continue on the now empty outer tracks to Grand Central, obviating the need for that $ multibillion tunnel and annex . . .
FRA: FRA compliant vehicles, following all FRA regs when on the FRA ROW, then running in the subway. No technical reason it can't be done--the vehicles would be strong enough to safely share the tracks with locomotives and freight, but since the cars would be self powered they would be light enough to be safe on the subway.
[There are so many ways you can work this--but I think there are strong reasons it would be desireable to share the track. For one thing, you could offer direct downtown MN and LIRR service using B div sized hybrid vehicles via the Broadway BMT. MN>2 outside tracks>BMT express at 63rd St>downtown>Atlantic Avenue Station>Atlantic Avenue Branch>Jamaica. Add JFK-LGA service and Bronx/Brooklyn superexpress services to the mix.
And (this makes my blood boil, LOL) after the downtown direct service trains turn off at 63rd Street, the LIRR trains would come in and continue on the now empty outer tracks to Grand Central, obviating the need for that $ multibillion tunnel and annex . . .]
Exactly. Why won't the MTA go with the simpler and less expensive solution? We have so much railroad ROW that we could certainly funnel some type of hybrid service connecting the commuter lines to Lower Manhattan. The Park Avenue MN tunnel and the Broadway BMT are so underused. This is the way to bring more service to these lines and it will somewhat relieve the Lexington Avenue IRT. And a Queens service along the LIRR through Forest Hills will definitely take pressure oof the Queens Blvd IND.
The one advantage that Queens Blvd had over Lex is that a parallel line exists for the entire way next to Queens Blvd. But even though Lex only has a parallel line north of Grand Central and south of Union Square, the MTA should be taking advantage of all these lines instead of pouring billions of dollars into something that's probably going to either be studied to death or half-built.
For you and Josh Hill both I state my agreement. If I had my way with the exception of outer suburbs [read beyond 3rd rail or wire] all the equipment would be able to share trackage, perhaps even be compatible in case of breakdown. And exempt from the FRA...there';s no good reason the services couldn't be integrated; when the Ml's came out I took that as a step toward rapid transit compatibility in the future.But indeed there is trackage that could be put to use to alleviate overcrowding.
[For you and Josh Hill both I state my agreement. If I had my way with the exception of outer suburbs [read beyond 3rd rail or wire] all the equipment would be able to share trackage, perhaps even be compatible in case of breakdown. And exempt from the FRA...there';s no good reason the services couldn't be integrated; when the Ml's came out I took that as a step toward rapid transit compatibility in the future.But indeed there is trackage that could be put to use to alleviate overcrowding.]
I may be wrong, but I've come to believe the FRA has become a bogeyman of sorts! Sure, they're interested in safety and turf . . . but I think the genuine safety needs could be addressed, and enough political pressure would keep them from going overboard on the turf thing.
I think even the federal agencies that were meant for good reasons [FHA for instance] become bogeymen. People stay up at night making more, more ,more rules then they become a stone around one's neck.
True. We do need some regulation, but the agencies tend to become overweaning bureaucracies. Problem is, how do you get rid of the overweaning part without the necessary part?
Since the MTA knows that we need rapid transit improvement/expantion, and line overcrowing seems to worst everyday, what making an attemt to ''study'' some of the old second system lines? What about extending the Chyrstie street subway downtown to south ferry? why not build the Worth street spur and run it into the Jamaica/Nassau street line at Essex st?
Or why not just connect Chrystie Street into the Nassau St. line? Then resurrect KKK service. That way you'd have thru on the 6th Avenue to lower Manhattan *and* thru service from the JMZ to upper Manhattan.
[Then resurrect KKK service]
I, uh, don't think *that* would go over too well :-)
Well, you must admit it would get attention!
Do you guys think a crosstown route thru lower Manhattan warrents consideration?
I certainly do. I think the Second Avenue subway is clearly the most pressing need in Manhattan, but after that I think crosstown links would be my priority.
One possibility--extend PATH across town. Or maybe you could do something with the A, since it's already there. If the A went across to the WTC, you could extend PATH down a bit and go across Wall Street. Then you could hook the 1/9 around to touch the lines at the tip?
Ideally it seems to me that people should take only three forms of transportation to get to work--a local or a car; a commuter train, ferry, or express to the business district; a local within the business district. In some cases we're set up to allow this, but in many we aren't. Crosstown lines in the business districts could help achieve that.
I agree. A Worth street route would be in the heart of Downtown Manhattan [just afew short blocks over from the WTC] with tranfers to just about all the north/south subways including the [if built]2 Avenue line.Also with trains coming from the Williamsburg Bride to the 8th Ave local, riders will now have more of a choice for servicesfrom Queens to lower Manhattan and JAMAICA LINE would once again have direct service to midtown
The connection to run Jamaica trains to Midtown is already in place, but there's no place to turn them anymore.
Couldn't you use the 63rd Street stub end?
If you check out the track maps, you will see that the 63rd Street "stub end" is actually two "stub-ends", one going eastbound, the other westbound. The Lexington station is built with false walls, to be demolished whenever/if ever the Second Avenue subway is built. Both eastbound tracks are on one level, and both westbound tracks are on the other level. How, then, could the stub ends be used as turnaround tracks?
Using the stub ends at 63rd Street to turn K trains would depend on the headways maintained in the 63rd Street tunnel and the distance between the switches leading to the stub ends from the 6th Avenue tracks and the switches between the two tracks that run through the station at 57th and 6th. According to the track maps, the first set of switches is just west of the Lexington Avenue Station and the second set is just south of the 57th Street Station. Turning a train using the eastbound stub end would require the northbound train to travel east and cross onto the stubend track, where its crew could change positions and get ready for the return trip. They could even carry passengers this far if the rest of the station shell were built out; otherwise they would terminate revenue service at 57th Street. At the proper time, the train would wrong rail back to its previous position on the northbound track at 57th Street, load passengers, pull across the second set of switches (just south of 57th Street station) onto the southbound track, and proceed from there. Using the westbound stub would require the northbound train to wrong rail from the switches just south of the 57th Street Station, unload, and continue to wrong rail to the switches west of Lexington Avenue, where it would cross onto the westbound stub. The feasibility of these moves would depend entirely on the frequency of K and other service and the length of time required by the wrong rail moves. I would expect that use of the eastbound stub would be preferable, since the train about to go wrong rail would be waiting for the move from a position where it was not blocking traffic.
IMHO, the connection to the Nassau line should have been done in the opposite direction in the first place. At least it would have provided an alternate means for 6th Ave. trains to get to Brooklyn, albeit a messy one.
[Exactly. Why won't the MTA go with the simpler and less expensive solution? We have so much railroad ROW that we could certainly funnel some type of hybrid service connecting the commuter lines to Lower Manhattan. The Park Avenue MN tunnel and the Broadway BMT are so underused. This is the way to bring more service to these lines and it will somewhat relieve the Lexington Avenue IRT. And a Queens service along the LIRR through Forest Hills will definitely take pressure oof the Queens Blvd IND.
The one advantage that Queens Blvd had over Lex is that a parallel line exists for the entire way next to Queens Blvd. But even though Lex only has a parallel line north of Grand Central and south of Union Square, the MTA should be taking advantage of all these lines instead of pouring billions of dollars into something that's probably going to either be studied to death or half-built. ]
It's really frustrating to know that we could solve or significantly improve just about every major problem we have now except Second Avenue access with existing infrastructure. As a beginning, we could connect the Atlantic Avenue branch to the Broadway BMT, switch the express and local tracks, and run B division superexpresses from Jamaica; connect the 63rd Street tunnel to the outer tracks of the Park Avenue tunnel and convert the 3rd rail; build a high speed underground walkway/escalator system at 125th Street and offer superexpress downtown service using those outer tracks and the BMT. We could eliminate nonsensical safety rules, replace shunt coils and restore brakes, retain some old stock as new cars arrive, convert some lightly used lines to full length OPTO, and restore rush hour service levels to what they were 50 years ago. The E and F could be extended back to 11 cars, and then we could turn one line on the LIRR main line into a Queens superexpress and divert the returning superexpresses and the LIRR trains to the tracks from LIC. Along with reopening the Manhattan Bridge, those measures would eliminate most serious overcrowding while providing better downtown access to commuters and passengers from the Bronx, without adding any track--and I bet we could do it all with the $3-1/2 billion that's been allocated for that useless tunnel and annex.
Please don't forget the old NYC westside tracks for service all the way down to the West Village area, with possible connections to the 14th St line or lower 8th Ave line.
avid
P.S. If all of these items were done the NYC Megalopolis can be more than a dream.
Perhaps the G train, after being connected to the 53rd St Tunnel (with the F train being rerouted to the 63rd St Tunnel of course) could turn south on 11th Avenue and connect to the old NYC West Side tracks below 34th Street.
You win the made Josh stay up and look at his track map--but what would you do with the B and D?
Well the B and D trains would remain the way they are now as 6th Avenue Expresses while the F would still be the 6th Avenue Local. The F would share the 63rd Street tunnel with the Q, but the Q would return to Broadway.
[Please don't forget the old NYC westside tracks for service all the way down to the West Village area, with possible connections to the 14th St line or lower 8th Ave line.
avid
P.S. If all of these items were done the NYC Megalopolis can be more than a dream]
I haven't forgotten it, just given up on the prospect that it would be reactivated. But you make a good point. Here we have a perfectly good line that could take MN or NJT or the LIRR or the subway or freight or light rail or PRT vehicles to within a stone's throw of the WTC and it's sitting unused. Typical!
I say reactivate it, and if the NIMBY's complain tell them you'll gladly shut it down and even demolish it--if they build a replacement on West Street. It really galls me when people buy property on rail lines and then complain when--heaven forbid!--somebody wants to run trains on them . . .
If all New Haven Line trains were rerouted to Penn Station, two tracks would be able handle all Hudson and Harlem Line service into Grand Central without a problem (I hope). Then a subway service from Wakefield down the two outer tracks of the Park Avenue Tunnel connecting into the 63rd St Line and down the Broadway Express tracks.
[If all New Haven Line trains were rerouted to Penn Station, two tracks would be able handle all Hudson and Harlem Line service into Grand Central without a problem (I hope). Then a subway service from Wakefield down the two outer tracks of the Park Avenue Tunnel connecting into the 63rd St Line and down the Broadway Express tracks.]
I don't think there's room at Penn Station--there's currently excess capacity, but it's either going to NJ transit (as it should) or wasted by Amtrak. Also, the NHRR doesn't feed the West Side very well. *But* Hudson service does, & the question then becomes--where do you put it?
Some possibilities I can think of--
--Run hybrid vehicles to the WTC via the A, which is only half utilized
--Relieve more load on GCT by running NH line vehicles down the BMT at 63rd Street--essentially swapping MN for LIRR trains at that point
--Create a Penn annex by rebuilding the tracks on the second floor of the post office, using the existing viaduct. Not a great one, since the station's not really in a good place
--Ditto, using the old downtown freight terminal. Also not a great plan, since its been severed from the line, NIMBY's won't let you use it anyway, and it's also not in a very good location
--End some trains at 125th Street for a cross-platform transfer to a high amenity downtown superexpress that would travel via the BMT express and also serve subway passengers from the Bronx
--Find a way to run LIRR and MN trains on the same track. Put in a high tech moving block signal system which can read both trains while increasing capacity at the same time. How about putting in LIRR/subway 3rd rail for the LIRR and caternary for the NH trains? Are the tunnels tall enough?
I like bottom-contact third rail better. I think it's much more convenient to have a third rail that is its own cover, that prevents a lot of damage to the third rail from debris, as well as corrosion from rain.
In Russia, where they have people seriously researching this, all the subways use bottom-contact third rail and all mainline railroads are elctrified with catenary.
Makes sense. OTOH, since the subway and LIRR are already top contact, it's more practical to change MN.
I rather like the idea of converting MN to catenary, if only because of the speeds you could achieve.
[By the way, the subway and Metro North have fundamentally incompatible power and signalling systems.]
Soluble, I think, given the many billions they're about to spend to duplicate a perfectly good tunnel for the LIRR.
[How about using half the Metro North line right up Park Ave, from wherever up to Wakefield? Presto at least 2 tracks for more East Side service, and the Bronx section of the 3rd Ave, el replaced..or more likely what WAS 3rd Ave. el. Maybe even the New Haven line too... then to Coop city. If only railfans had the capital to back all the ideas. How about approaching the Rothschilds... they built the IRT, Northen Pacific, and gosh knows how many others. Interesting that except to add a 2nd Ave, line there are cheap and existing options avalable for things that are sorely needed.]
Isn't it? It's amazing how much we could do with what we have--solve overcrowding on the Lex and the Queens corridor, add express service to the L, add crosstown service in Brooklyn, add superexpress service, solve overcrowding on the LIRR and bring Metro North and LIRR trains to lower Manhattan, increase rush hour frequency on every line.
If I had a few billion I think I'd start a company and offer to build the Second Avenue Subway. What a lucrative route! The subways lose money on 3 AM service to 242nd Street, not mid day service in the country's (world's?) densest transit corridor. Private enterprise can build things for a third of what NY State can, and with ZPTO, unattended stations, and flexible work rules my labor costs would be slashed without cutting salaries.
That is one of the best ideas yet. Private companies can outdo the bureaucracies.. The BMT had better lines and trains before thecity bought it, not after. In fact, the only reason that the BMT did not make a profit is because they had to have a 5 cent fare. As soon as the city bought the BMT, the fare was raised to 10 cents, and the money was probably lost in the bureaucracy when it could have been used for something useful.
[That is one of the best ideas yet. Private companies can outdo the bureaucracies.. The BMT had better lines and trains before thecity bought it, not after. In fact, the only reason that the BMT did not make a profit is because they had to have a 5 cent fare. As soon as the city bought the BMT, the fare was raised to 10 cents, and the money was probably lost in the bureaucracy when it could have been used for something useful.]
Not to mention that almost the entire subway system was built in the 40 years before consolidation--in the 60 years since, it's shrunk.
[If I had a few billion I think I'd start a company and offer to build the Second Avenue Subway. What a lucrative route! The subways lose money on 3 AM service to 242nd Street, not mid day service in the country's (world's?) densest transit corridor. Private enterprise can build things for a third of what NY State can, and with ZPTO, unattended stations, and flexible work rules my labor costs would be slashed without cutting salaries.]
Nice idea, but it doesn't have a snowball's chance of becoming reality even if you had the cash to spare. Remember, you're talking about New York, New York, not, for instance, Evansville, Indiana or Wichita Falls, Texas. All you need to know about Good Ol' NYC can be summed up in two very simple equations:
Big Government = Good
Private Enterprise = Bad.
People in NYC look to the government as the salvation of all their problems. Private business, well, that's nothing more than a collection of greedy fat cats who'd bring back slavery and serfdom if they could.
Do you *really* think that NYC residents would support a huge private initiative?
[Nice idea, but it doesn't have a snowball's chance of becoming reality even if you had the cash to spare. Remember, you're talking about New York, New York, not, for instance, Evansville, Indiana or Wichita Falls, Texas. All you need to know about Good Ol' NYC can be summed up in two very simple equations:
Big Government = Good
Private Enterprise = Bad.
People in NYC look to the government as the salvation of all their problems. Private business, well, that's nothing more than a collection of greedy fat cats who'd bring back slavery and serfdom if they could.
Do you *really* think that NYC residents would support a huge private initiative?]
I don't think it's the residents--they'd just be glad to have something built--but the politicians!
Huh. I still have some problems with it. For one thing, I think routing simplicity is desireable. People get confused enough as it is. For another, the lines really are set up for the current arrangement--express and local side by side with cross platform transfer, the way they're set up in Lower Manhattan, etc. It would be so easy to increase the capacity of the existing lines! You could probably get as high a percentage increase just by operating them properly--e.g., restoring the service levels of 40 years ago--as you would by switching to B division specs.
Anyway, as Larry points out, what we really need is a Second Avenue subway--a real four track one. Then there are some great things we could do with the commuter lines and the BMT. We could have an incredible transit system if we really wanted it, with very little additional infrastructure--it's really a question of politics rather than cleverness.
What could influence the decision to make the 2nd Ave. line according to IRT or BMT standards is which train yard the trains are going to use. The way the line is planned right now, it seems to be an isolated line. There is no through connection to an existing line. Therefore,
some track connection will have to be built to an existing line to
receive rolling stock. The Bronx IRT yards seem closer than the Brooklyn BMT yards. The terminal for the 2nd Ave. line is supposed to be E.125th St. right near the #6 line, which is an IRT line. Therefore, there could be a tie-in there. Another matter to consider is whether the Bronx yards can handle additional rolling stock however.
I also question the "wisdom" of building the line as a 2-track one instead of a 3 or 4. When the line was first proposed, the thinking was that there would be longer distances between stations so that there wouldn't be that many stops. However, as we know, 2-track lines
can get tied up very easily when there is a delay because there is no
express track to shunt following trains onto. As well, Manhattan riders are used to express service, and many may still opt for the Lexington if the 2nd Ave line is going to be a local line.
[I also question the "wisdom" of building the line as a 2-track one instead of a 3 or 4. When the line was first proposed, the thinking was that there would be longer distances between stations so that there wouldn't be that many stops. However, as we know, 2-track lines
can get tied up very easily when there is a delay because there is no
express track to shunt following trains onto. As well, Manhattan riders are used to express service, and many may still opt for the Lexington if the 2nd Ave line is going to be a local line. ]
I agree 100% A two track line won't have adequate capacity for the service levels we'll need. And wide station spacing won't work in crowded areas of Manhattan, where the buses are too slow to act as feeders.
North to South
125 Street - Triborough Bridge
2 Avenue
116 Street
2 Avenue
106 Street
2 Avenue
96 Street
2 Avenue
86 Street
2 Avenue
80 Street
2 Avenue
72 Street
2 Avenue
60 Street
2 Avenue
51 Street
2 Avenue
42 Street - United Nations
2 Avenue
34 Street
2 Avenue
28 Street
2 Avenue
23 Street
2 Avenue
14 Street - Stuyvestant Square (free transfer to the L on 3 Avenue)
2 Avenue
East 8 Street
2 Avenue
Houston Street - Bowery (Free transfer to the F on 2 Avenue)
Delancy Street (free transfer to the Nassau St line at Bowery or the B, D, & Q @ Grand Street)
Bowery
Canal Street
Bowery
Fulton Street - South Street Seaport
Pearl St
Wall Street
Pearl St
Whitehall Street - Battery Park (free transfers to the 1, 9, 4, 5, N & R)
Pearl St
That's all i can think of for now. There are probably some flaws with that.
Stops in Manhattan: 125*, 116, 106, 96*, 86, 79, 72*, 65, 57, 50, 42* (4/5/6/7/S), 34*, 23, 14*, St Marks Place, Houston* (F), Grand*, Chatham Square, Park Row (4/5/6/J/M/Z)
There would be new track connections, too: 63rd Street crossovers to Upper East Side, East Midtown to 63rd Street Tunnel, 2nd Av Local to Williamsburg Bridge, and 2nd Av Express to Manhattan Bridge. Meanwhile, the 6th Ave line would drop the Chrystie Street Connection, but transfers at 2nd/Houston could be made. The 6th Ave expresses would be diverted to a Utica Av line.
In the Bronx, the main line would continue: 125*, 138 (6), 149* (2/5), 163* before branching
The Lafayette Ave branch: 149, Prospect Av (6), Hunts Point Av/Lafayette Av, Boynton Av, Sound View Av, White Plains Road, Castle Hill Av, Brush Av, Balcom Av, E Tremont Av.
The Co-Op City branch: 163, Home St/Boston Rd, Crotona Av, 174, West Farms Sq, E 180 St (2/5), Pelham Pkwy (5), Eastchester Rd/Allerton Av, and finally Bartow Av/Co-Op City Blvd.
The Concourse extension (not part of 2nd Av): 205, Burke Av/White Plains Road (2), Bronxwood Av, Boston Rd, Gun Hill Rd (5), and the same Co-Op City terminal.
The Third Av branch: 163, 168, Claremont Pkwy, E Tremont Av, Fordham Plaza, Bedford Park Blvd/Botanical Gardens, 204, and Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Road (2/5).
The Utica Av line: 2nd/Houston, Avenue C, Bedford Av/Grand St, South 4 St (G), Flushing Av/Broadway, Broadway/Myrtle (J/M/Z), Lexington-Lafayette/Stuyvesant Av, Putnam Av, Fulton/Utica (A/C), Eastern Pkwy/Utica Av, Empire Blvd, Winthrop Av, Church Av, Avenue D, Kings Hwy/Avenue H, Flatlands Av/Avenue K, Avenue N, Avenue U/Kings Plaza. Note that this line comes from an older source than the others, and probably has more deficiencies.
The Flatbush/Nostrand extension: Flatbush Av, Avenue K, Avenue N/Kings Hwy, Quentin Rd/Gerritsen Av, Avenue U, Avenue X, Voorhies Av. Note that this line would be elevated, with no connection to the Utica Av line.
The Outer Brooklyn Crosstown: Bath Av, 86 St/Bay Pkwy (B/M), Stillwell Av, W 7 St/Kings Hwy (N), McDonald Av (F), Ocean Pkwy, Coney Island Av, E 16 St (D/Q), Ocean Av, Bedford Av, Nostrand Av/Kings Hwy, Flatbush Av, Utica Av/Flatlands Av, Ralph Av/Paerdegat, E 80 St, Remsen Av, Glenwood Rd/Canarsie (L), Linden Blvd/Rockaway Av, Livonia Av (3), Pitkin Av, East New York. Note that this line and the next are both to be built to BMT standards instead of IND standards (unlike the rest of the non-IRT lines proposed here), and they meet at Linden Blvd/Rockaway Av.
The Inner Brooklyn Crosstown (alias Culver Shuttle Reborn): 9th Av (B/M), Fort Hamilton Pkwy (37/38 Sts), McDonald Av/Church Av (F), Coney Island Av, E 18 St (D/Q), Bedford Av, Nostrand Av/Church Av (2/5), Albany Av, Utica Av/Church Av, Remsen Av, Rockaway Av/Linden Blvd, Pennsylvania Av, Ashford Av, Fountain Av, Eldert Lane (skipping Euclid Av), Cross Bay Blvd/149 Av, Aqueduct/N Conduit Av (A), Federal Circle, and a loop around JFK Terminals 1-3, 4, 6, 8-9.
There were a few others (Metropolitan Av, Long Island Expressway, Union Turnpike, upper Jamaica Av) but they were not so great and this message is getting long already.
The Brooklyn crosstown lines can (and should) be light railways (trolleys). They are cheaper to build, and there are not that many people who would use those lines anyway.
I don't think the MTA has any interest at all in operating light rail systems.
I agree that the crosstowns should be Light Rail and not Subway.
As of Late i have been thinking of a Light Rail line on Nostrand Av. It would run from the first 2/5 IRT station on Nostrand north, connection to the A/C, G, L, and MJZ. I won't go into detail as north of Lafeyette my proposed route gets rather complicated, but maybe later i'll scan a USGS or Hagstrom map and show everyone where it should go :)
---Abe
Anyone else have any Crosstown Light Rails they'd like to see built?
(Anyone else have any Crosstown Light Rails they'd like to see built?)
1. Brooklyn Circle Routes
One of the BMT Southern division's problems is that it has too many lines in close proximity, with too few trains on each. But you can't eliminate one of them without leaving at least some people too far from the train. One option is to convert the Sea Beach to light rail from Stillwell to 59th Street, where one would transfer to the R (which could run express from 36th Street).
In addition, I'd convert the BMT southern division to a 3 track line, with freight in the middle and light rail on the sides. This line would ride from Ridgewood around to the waterfront at 60th Street, and would share tracks with the former Sea Beach from New Utrect to the vicinity of 59th Street.
Subway trains now assigned to the N would put on the B or R. You'd walk a little farther, but wait less and ride faster. If you didn't want the wait, you'd take the light rail -- which would be grade separated and quick. This route would be a boon to East Flatbush, and to Brooklyn College. One could get to and from this line from any subway.
2. Bronx Crosstown
This light rail line would ride along Fordham Road and Pelham Parkway, the location of the Bronx's busiest bus route. The good news is that the Pelham Parkway Malls provide enough room to run the line at grade, and cross streets are few enough to provide a quick ride. You'd get to board the line in a park. Fordham Road has existing grade separations at the Concourse, and Southern Blvd as well.
Otherwise, getting down Fordham Road would be a trick. A light rail subway would require tunnelling through Fordham Gneiss, no mean feat. The street is congested, and curb lanes are required for loading even if you are willing to ban parking. But Fordham Road is commercial along its length. How about a light rail El?
2. Queens Crosstown
I'd hook the Airtrain around in Jamaica, and extend it north along Queens Blvd and adjacent to the Van Wyck in Flushing Meadown Park, into Downtown Flushing and on to LaGuardia Airport, as origninally proposed. And I'd let everyone use it for less than the $5.00 the Port Authority proposes. It would connect to all the Queens subways and most of its employment centers -- the airports and Downtown Flushing and Jamaica.
I think the idea of a Bronx light rail line along Pelham Parkway/Fordham Road is good.
You need a mode of transportation in the Fordham Road area which will not have to contend with the Manhattan-like traffic people experience everyday. This traffic causes the busses to bunch up and arrive altogether.
Do you think there is a chance that a light rail system could be self-supporting? I don't necessarily mean that it will support its own construction costs, which is probably unrealistic. I mean that it will collect enough in fares to pay its operating expenses. Anybody have an idea about this?
(Do you think there is a chance that a light rail system could be self-supporting? I don't necessarily mean that it will support its
own construction costs, which is probably unrealistic. I mean that it will collect enough in fares to pay its operating expenses.
Anybody have an idea about this?)
I believe that in a dense enough corridor, with fair labor contracts and pensions, and without featherbedding, rail transit can be self-supporting on an auto-equivalent basis. That is, with state taxes covering the cost of building and maintaining the right of way (as the state covers the cost of major roads), and local taxes covering the cost of the stations (which raise local property values). Rail should be able to, and required to, cover the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating the cars, and collecting fares.
Of course, buses are operated on an auto-equivalent basis, since they use the streets and advertizing covers the cost of the shelters. But buses run in places and at times where mass transit is a social service, not a transportation system. No sense putting light rail there. But in the cases I listed, I'd say yes, it could cover costs.
Larry;
To say a light rail or subway must be self supporting is not taking the "system" view of transportation. If adequate subsidized public transportation is available, there will be a reduction of uninsured barely running automobiles owned by those who cannot afford insurance and regular maintenance but feel there is no alternative to owning a car, on the streets. This is a social plus for the society as a whole. All public transportation, not just busses should be considered a social service.
Also if light rail and bus fares are kept lower than the cost of driving and parking (which is definitely true in Manhattan) drivers will switch to public transport for commuting purposes, and the remaining vehicle drivers will derive a benefit from the reduction of road traffic.
This is not to say that public transport patterns should not be analyzed regularly and little used lines changed or terminated, but each separate line should not be considered as a profit center and terminated if it is running at a loss.
The belief that fares must pay for operating costs is what is halting the further development of rail transportation in Los Angeles.
With all due respect, your analysis essentially sees publicly provided transportation as an occasion to engage in wealth transfer to transit users from taxpayers. It is very much the reason why more transit is not built. Why should taxpayers subsidize building lines that they will then be asked to operate at a loss as a public expense? Frankly, most ordinary people who perceive themselves as paying their own way (whether altogether true or not is open to question) resent yet another scheme to redistribute wealth. These are the reasons why transit should attempt to pay its own way.
>>>> most ordinary people who perceive themselves as paying their own way (whether altogether true or not is open to question) resent yet another scheme to redistribute wealth <<<<
I certainly agree with you that this is the case, and this has hampered the development of rapid transit. What's known as the "highway lobby" is adamantly opposed to gasoline tax money being diverted from building highways to any other form of transportation.
That is also why I and many other drivers travel in our private automobiles at an average of 20 mph going to and from work in the central city. I just happen to think that if there were a rapid transit line paralleling the freeway I drive every day which siphoned off several thousand commuters I would be driving twice as fast and cutting my commuting time in half. Therefore I would be receiving a benefit from the rail line even if I never rode it. Without a subsidy for the rapid transit, it could be argued that I was not "paying my own way", but getting a free ride.
BTW there is a commuter line running down the middle of one of the local freeways, but the cost of a ride ($4.00 & up) and limited service has not done much reduce the congestion on that road.
If more people arrive in the downtown area without automobiles it cuts down on the congestion on the downtown streets also. This benefits both those who are driving and retail merchants who have increased foot traffic for their stores.
A local (Los Angeles) PBS show this week pointed out how much the merchants near the soon to be opened North Hollywood station of the Metro Red Line are looking forward to the opening to provide an economic renaissance in their neighborhood.
Presumably the rapid transit would reduce air pollution also. This benefits everyone, not only the transit riders. Again, non users are getting a free ride for these benefits.
Until planners look at all modes of transportation in an urban area including private vehicle, taxis, busses, trains and even people movers (moving walkways) as one system, instead of competing modes of transportation, and figure out how to finance the system as a whole, there will be unnecessary congestion in cities.
To see a transportation system as an integrated whole requires that the costs of automobiles and automobile travel be accounted for as a whole. Since auto purchase and operation are private expenses, it is not easy to perform a "serious" calculation that reflects the true costs of private transportation. People are not willing to be rid of their cars and to pay taxes to support transit, even if a rational calculation shows that many people might be financially further ahead without their cars. It is only in a very few places, like NYC, Chicago, Boston and perhaps San Francisco, Washington, and Philadelphia that the costs of driving are so high that people might be willing to consider the alternatives.
Note the absurd opposition a few years ago to a minor increase in the gasoline tax. You would have thought the government was confiscating everyone's first born child. Foreign oil producers can manipulate supply and accomplish huge price increases (at the moment gasoline is about 2.25 a gallon here in Chicago), but let the government suggest that gas be taxed to raise revenue and provide economic incentive for more efficient energy use, and people react as thought they are being deprived of a God-given right to cheap gas. I think it is a reflection of the sad state of the American people that we see a call for minor and rational taxation as improper government intrusion.
The problem I think is not with minor and rational taxation, but with major and irrational taxation. The gas tax is an excellent example--I can't think of a better way to do something about global warming. But we don't have it. OTOH, every time I pay my phone bill I pay a fee that subsidizes phone service for people in rural areas. Just one example of numerous programs that encourage people to make inefficient use of resources and ultimately cost everybody money.
Here in NY State the local economy is being strangulated by high taxes, while at the same time we don't have services we need, e.g., the Second Avenue subway or schools that offer competitive salaries. Too much money goes to people in useless jobs and lines the pockets of the venal and corrupt.
Given that government steals or wastes a large percentage of everything that comes its way, I've come to believe that everything possible should be left to private enterprise. That's why I agree 100% with Larry--governemnt should subsidize the ROW, to place transit on an equal footing with automobile travel, and then get out of the way. This in spite of the fact that transit improves the quality of life for everyone, and so in a better world would be deserving of a higher subsidy.
Unfortunately, the government has no credibility -- take it from me, I work there.
Let's say, as the RPA and the NYC Partnership did, that we are going to put tolls on all the free East River Crossings, charge people the fair value of scarce road space, and use the money to upgrade the transportation system in general, and mass transit investmenst in particular. Sounds good...
Except that politicians and members of certain unions would be exempt from the tolls, the TWU would demand that much of the money be used for a wage increase, the number of MTA administrative staff would go up, money would be used for studies, the MTA and DOT would float $50 billion on bonds to "buy" the bridges (perhaps more than once) and the money will be spent on other things, etc.
Our one-party-per-place system is so unaccountable that no one trusts the government with the money it already collects, let alone more. Thats' why I think the only way the transportation system can be improved is if it is made to pay for itself with a really hard firewall. Otherwise, they'll just use any "transportation" money to reward more powerful interests.
Yes, and New York State and City are in a class by themselves when it comes to irresponsible public borrowing. Did you know that New York State and New York City are number one and number two in terms of the level of public debt? NYC owes more money than the entire State of California!!! Watch the next governor's election cycle - Carl McCall, the Democratic State Comptroller, is a fiscal conservative who advocates less borrowing and retiring debt. It will be well worth watching an election in which a major Democratic contender (and an African-American) tries to make fiscal responsibility a centerpiece of public debate.
(Watch the next governor's election cycle - Carl McCall, the Democratic State Comptroller, is a fiscal conservative who advocates
less borrowing and retiring debt.)
He is a debt conservative because of the job he is in. I'm not sure I agree he is a fiscal conservative, but he can't be any worse than Pataki/Cuomo.
The debt is just one aspect of the screw the future attitude of NYS's "leadership." Look at those idiots in the legislature! They represent people who have been moving out, and their goal is to cash in and hit the road. That not only means more debt. It also means high taxes on new businesses (with big breaks for downsizing large corporations), pension raids (like the one McCall endorsed), no training and competitive wages for current public employees, and less maintenance and expansion of the infrastructure.
New York politicians are anti-future.
[The debt is just one aspect of the screw the future attitude of NYS's "leadership." Look at those idiots in the legislature! They represent people who have been moving out, and their goal is to cash in and hit the road. That not only means more debt. It also means high taxes on new businesses (with big breaks for downsizing large corporations), pension raids (like the one McCall endorsed), no training and competitive wages for current public employees, and less maintenance and expansion of the infrastructure.]
It's been noted before that blaming the MTA for filthy subway cars is sort of misplaced. Blame should first and foremost go where it's really due, namely the idiot riders who treat the subway as their personal waste basket. On a similar note, blaming the NYPD for last Sunday's Central Park rampage misses the real issue, which is blaming the savages who perpetrated the violence.
You probably can see where this is going. Blaming idiot state (and city) politicians is rather inaccuate - doing so lets the *voters* off the hook. People are voting for these schmucks.
[It's been noted before that blaming the MTA for filthy subway cars is sort of misplaced. Blame should first and foremost go where it's really due, namely the idiot riders who treat the subway as their personal waste basket. On a similar note, blaming the NYPD for last Sunday's Central Park rampage misses the real issue, which is blaming the savages who perpetrated the violence.
You probably can see where this is going. Blaming idiot state (and city) politicians is rather inaccuate - doing so lets the *voters* off the hook. People are voting for these schmucks.]
When I talk to people about voting, I hear a sense of despair--it's not going to get better, what are you going to do about it. People *did* get fed up and kick out Cuomo, darling boy of the Democratic elite and a decent enough fellow who just couldn't understand that it isn't 1932 anymore. But look at what they got! Someone just as tax and spend, but somewhat sleazier.
The public doesn't really understand the issues--politicians lie to them and the press doesn't report on them because issues don't sell papers. But they will vote against an incumbent when things get bad. They voted out Dinkins, and got the best damned mayor since LaGuardia. They voted out Cuomo, and got new health care programs . . . so now what are they going to do?
--Josh, cringing at his choice in the Senatorial race
The problem is that most people don't vote and most of those that do vote don't know what they're doing.
You can never kick an incumbent out of a local race, it's impossible, people don't realize that their legislator is one of the most important people that they could vote for and their vote is worth MORE (less people are voting). Until we get people to know what's going on, and they can, they're not that stupid, we will continue to move in that same direction.
I really don't feel that way about the senatorial race, but what about the presidential race? I'm sure that the only way to vote in 2001 for the mayor would be to register as a Democrat before election day this year (In NYS when registering for a party, except in new registrations or dropping a party completely, the change will not be effective until after the next election). There was an artice around Super Tuesday in the "Times" that mentioned the process of dropping a party and mentioned that the only way to vote in NY is to vote in the Democratic Primary. Republicans only win the mayorship and only when things are truly bad.
[The problem is that most people don't vote and most of those that do vote don't know what they're doing.
You can never kick an incumbent out of a local race, it's impossible, people don't realize that their legislator is one of the most important people that they could vote for and their vote is worth MORE (less people are voting). Until we get people to know what's going on, and they can, they're not that stupid, we will continue to move in that same direction.
I really don't feel that way about the senatorial race, but what about the presidential race? I'm sure that the only way to vote in 2001 for the mayor would be to register as a Democrat before election day this year (In NYS when registering for a party, except in new registrations or dropping a party completely, the change will not be effective until after the next election). There was an artice around Super Tuesday in the "Times" that mentioned the process of dropping a party and mentioned that the only way to vote in NY is to vote in the Democratic Primary. Republicans only win the mayorship and only when things are truly bad.]
Pretty much why I'm a registered Democrat, rather than an independent.
(Pretty much why I'm a registered Democrat, rather than an independent. )
Sounds like my wife, who was a Republican in Nassau and is a Democrat in New York. The problem is that following the incumbent party is pretty much like staying home. Certain interests have their hooks so deep into the major parties that they are incapable of reform.
Transit riders aren't one of them.
Registration doesn't mean that you're forced to vote in the general election, it just means you can vote in the primary.
Primaries are stupid, all candidates should participate in the general election. If not, then primaries should allow everyone to vote regardless of affiliation. You would need to register in a party only to choose party officials. Runoffs should solve the problems of pluralities and the Electrical College is completely useless, always has been.
Primaries are stupid, all candidates should participate in the general election.
Sometimes that's a reasonable solution, sometimes it's not. For local elections (and by local I mean LOCAL, as in confined to a small geographic or population-based area, like Cypress Creek Township, Franklin County, North Carolina - population 2000 or so - not even an area as large as the county, population 35,000 or so) it's a good idea, and for school board elections (which don't tend to follow the same set of issues as any other elections) it's also a good idea, if only because our public educational system should be free of both religious and political influence. But for larger-scale elections the size of the candidate field would make voting even more of a shot in the dark than it already is. At least with political parties backing the surviving candidates you have a choice of the lesser of two evils.
By the way, I speak from experience as a (losing) candidate in a primary election, for school board (they are partisan in our part of North Carolina, unfortunately).
If not, then primaries should allow everyone to vote regardless of affiliation.
In some states they do - witness John McCain's victory in Michigan, where Democrats voted for him in droves. In some other states, North Carolina included, unaffiliated voters can vote in some primaries, if the particular political party opens their primary to them. The Republicans have had open primaries in North Carolina since that law was enacted; I don't think the Democrats have, but I could be wrong.
Runoffs should solve the problems of pluralities.
If there are no more than four candidates, yes. We had a situation in North Carolina a few years back, however, where there were seven candidates in a local non-partisan election for mayor of a major municipality. Two active blocs of voters pushed special-interest candidates who took 22% and 20% respectively of the vote; these candidates were the ones in the runoff. Four of the five remaining candidates (representing essentially all of the remaining votes cast) represented the third position, but none made the runoff. Fortunately for the residents of that city, the residency of one of the special-interest candidates was challenged, the challenge was upheld, and the election was thrown out. When a new election was held three of the candidates withdrew, swung their support behind a fourth, and that candidate won the election with over 75% of the vote.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One can have multi-level runoffs, in which the candidates in the second stage must together have more than 50%. This means that you might have a second runoff and is time consuming and impractical.
State Primaries could be forced on the same day (Mega-Tuesday if you will), this way the later primaries won't be as useless.
One can have multi-level runoffs, in which the candidates in the second stage must together have more than 50%. This means that you might have a second runoff and is time consuming and impractical.
Absolutely right. And costly! Back when I was serving as an elections official in Franklin County, North Carolina (1985-1994) a runoff primary cost us over $30,000. This primary only involved six polling places (it was for a state House district that covered just the southern part of the county) and less than 3000 registered voters. Voter turnout was less than 100 voters, so the cost to the taxpayers was over $300 per vote. Considering that $30,000 would pay an above-average salary to a full-time teacher in North Carolina at that time, the runoff election is an even bigger waste of money.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My solution would be an "instant runoff," in which people put down their second choice candidate, and the second choice votes of voters not voting for the top two determine the winner.
However, the Board of Elections is probably the most corrupt and incompetent level of government, so I doubt they could pull something like this off.
[One can have multi-level runoffs, in which the candidates in the second stage must together have more than 50%. This means that you might have a second runoff and is time consuming and impractical.
State Primaries could be forced on the same day (Mega-Tuesday if you will), this way the later primaries won't be as useless.]
That's effectively a proportional ballot with a single iteration. Objectively, it's the fairest way to run an election, but it's been tried in NYC, in the school board elections, and it was generally considered to be a failure.
Maybe your simplified version would work better--no numbers, and the purpose is clear.
State Primaries could be forced on the same day (Mega-Tuesday if you will), this way the later primaries won't be as useless.
Could be, but won't. We're individualists in this country, not sheep - we'll do it differently than the next state just because it's different. And while primary scheduling may be an extreme example of that, it's one of the qualities that makes us uniquely American. Read John Dewey on Individualism for some interesting insights - not that I agree with everything he says, but there's food for thought.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, you could always live in jolly old Maryland, where we've had two Guberatorial elections where the general election gave voters a choice between a left-wing liberal Democrat and an extreme right-wing Republican (and a woman to boot). The Dem won the first time by a very narrow majority, and the last election was a re-run, but Spendenning won by bigger total.
What the voters choice actually was "Who will do the least amount of damage to the State in the next four years", so that's how they voted. Neither candidate got loads of general public "Love You".
Seems to me we get the exact same choice in the Presidential this year: "Who will do the least amount of damage to the Country in the next four years". Not much of a choice, is it?
(Seems to me we get the exact same choice in the Presidential this year: "Who will do the least amount of damage to the Country in the next four years". Not much of a choice, is it?)
I'd take either of those guys over any New York State politician bar Moynihan, who is retiring.
I gave up in the l996 elections... felt that the Republicans threw 2 elections in a row, Now they're throwing the third. How do you believe in anything? The favorite saying is you're not voting for "X" you're voting against him by voting for the opponent with mixed feelings.
[One can have multi-level runoffs, in which the candidates in the second stage must together have more than 50%. This means that you might have a second runoff and is time consuming and impractical.
State Primaries could be forced on the same day (Mega-Tuesday if you will), this way the later primaries won't be as useless.]
If you really want to do it right, I think proportional ballots are the way to go--the runoffs are effectively built in according to the best mathematical principles.
Problem is people get confused by them.
[In some states they do - witness John McCain's victory in Michigan, where Democrats voted for him in droves. In some other states, North Carolina included, unaffiliated voters can vote in some primaries, if the particular political party opens their primary to them. The Republicans have had open primaries in North Carolina since that law was enacted; I don't think the Democrats have, but I could be wrong.]
McCain is a perfect example of how closed primaries fail us. How many here would have preferred a reformist war hero to Tweedledum and Tweedledee? (Not that I'm prejudiced, LOL, but I'm having trouble marshalling enthusiasm for a fellow who thinks the president should be an expert on the color of tooth enamel and the pitch of screws and a fellow who thinks he'd maybe sorta be good at playing golf and signing things like death warrants they do have those in that big White House place where Daddy lived when he wasn't at camp don't they and is it for bad guys with rotten teeth like it is in Texas?)
[Primaries are stupid, all candidates should participate in the general election. If not, then primaries should allow everyone to vote regardless of affiliation. You would need to register in a party only to choose party officials. Runoffs should solve the problems of pluralities and the Electrical College is completely useless, always has been.]
Very true. The entire primary structure has the effect of pulling the two parties too far to the extremes, & leaves the great majority of centrists in the lurch. But the two parties guard their franchises zealously, and multiple candidates would open the way to multiple parties, and that's oh so messy if you're a political boss . . .
[Sounds like my wife, who was a Republican in Nassau and is a Democrat in New York. The problem is that following the incumbent party is pretty much like staying home. Certain interests have their hooks so deep into the major parties that they are incapable of reform.
Transit riders aren't one of them.]
Well, I'm a member because it gives me more power, and because I think the national Repubican party is too close to business interests and radical right wing fundamentalists right now--not because I always vote for Democratic!
But--there are a hell of a lot of transit riders, and those millions can make a huge difference in *any* state election. Why can't they (we) be better organized?
[The public doesn't really understand the issues--politicians lie to them and the press doesn't report on them because issues don't sell papers. But they will vote against an incumbent when things get
bad. They voted out Dinkins, and got the best damned mayor since LaGuardia. They voted out Cuomo, and got new health care programs . . . so now what are they going to do?]
Well, they always can move to the Sunbelt :-)
Mentioning the Sunbelt reminds me of something. It's sometimes been said that NYC is so hopelessly misgoverned because it's a one-party town. With occasional exceptions such as Giuliani, the city is almost always solidly in the Democratic column. Yet it's misleading to attribute the city's poor governance on that one factor. As things turn out, many Sunbelt cities and even whole states are single-party areas as well, although in their cases the party in question is the Republican one. You probably won't be seeing many more Democrats, except for some from the party's most conservative wing, winning major elections in, say, Utah or South Carolina. But what stands in stark contrast to NYC is the simple fact that those states have competent leaders who can get things done. NYC's bumbling incompetence is wholly alien to their experience. As a result, the fact that NYC voters go one way only doesn't really explain why the city is so wretchedly governed.
[Well, they always can move to the Sunbelt :-)
Mentioning the Sunbelt reminds me of something. It's sometimes been said that NYC is so hopelessly misgoverned because it's a one-party town. With occasional exceptions such as Giuliani, the city is almost always solidly in the Democratic column. Yet it's misleading to attribute the city's poor governance on that one factor. As things turn out, many Sunbelt cities and even whole states are single-party areas as well, although in their cases the party in question is the Republican one. You probably won't be seeing many more Democrats, except for some from the party's most conservative wing, winning major elections in, say, Utah or South Carolina. But what stands in stark contrast to NYC is the simple fact that those states have competent leaders who can get things done. NYC's bumbling incompetence is wholly alien to their experience. As a result, the fact that NYC voters go one way only doesn't really explain why the city is so wretchedly governed.]
Is NYC government less competent than other government, or is it just bigger? I tend to think it's the latter. Those sunbelt pols--they were all Democrats before they all became Republicans after the Dems deserted them on civil rights legislation--are corrupt as hell. But they don't have the huge network of Moscow-on-the-Hudson agencies, entitlements, and unions that NY State acquired during its period of prosperity, when it could afford it (or thought it could). And it's a lot easier not to give people something than it is to take it away, e.g., a Southern governor can laugh at the thought of building a municipal hospital, but in NY State he has to deal with a whole bunch of hospital employees and their unions.
Those sunbelt pols--they were all Democrats before they all became Republicans after the Dems deserted them on civil rights legislation
Aww, the poor racist babies.
[Aww, the poor racist babies.]
I read an account of the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights bill the other day, and it was interesting to see that it carried the Republicans by a significantly higher percentage than the Democrats. How things have changed since the days of Lincoln and TR . . .
In his day (1964), Goldwater was considered a right winger. Today, he would be left of the GOP center of gravity.
(Is NYC government less competent than other government, or is it just bigger?)
You should know the answer. State, local and federal government are a far lower share of total employment and total earnings in New York City than in the Sunbelt, or the rest of the state. We have big government, and we pay for it. They have big government, and WE pay for it. And keep in mind, many places do not have professional fire departments, public garbage pick-up, public water, public sewer, and public transit. Government statistics count CUNY and the TA as local government, SUNY, Rutgerws, the LIRR, MNRR, and NJT as state government.
The government's share of NYC's economy has shrunk substantially since 1994, due to expanding private employment, falling government employment, and government pay that has lagged far behind private pay. Welfare expenditures have also been cut. But state and federal aid to NYC have been cut as fast or faster, and redistributed elsewhere. And health care and debt service continue to grow.
[You should know the answer. State, local and federal government are a far lower share of total employment and total earnings in New York City than in the Sunbelt, or the rest of the state. We have big government, and we pay for it. They have big government, and WE pay for it. And keep in mind, many places do not have professional fire departments, public garbage pick-up, public water, public sewer, and public transit. Government statistics count CUNY and the TA as local government, SUNY, Rutgerws, the LIRR, MNRR, and NJT as state government.
The government's share of NYC's economy has shrunk substantially since 1994, due to expanding private employment, falling government employment, and government pay that has lagged far behind private pay. Welfare expenditures have also been cut. But state and federal aid to NYC have been cut as fast or faster, and redistributed elsewhere. And health care and debt service continue to grow.]
OTOH, as you've pointed out, NY State is about in the middle when it comes to Federal spending, and its BOP is slightly negative, but it's the tax champion of the continental US. And the City spends a fortune on medical care!
[Government statistics count CUNY and the TA as local government, SUNY, Rutgerws, the LIRR, MNRR, and NJT as state government.]
Rutgers and NJT? The last time I checked those were Jersey agencies. We're talking about the incompetence of New York politicians so Rutgers and NJT shouldn't be something we have to worry about. Unless New Yorkers are being forced to subsidize more Jersey property with our taxes while getting screwed in return (do no rail links to JFK or LGA ring a bell to anybody?)
New York's got too many problems and crap to worry about. The last I want is to be subsidizing already nice institutions like Rutgers and NJT, which has brand new light rail service in Jersey City and Bayonne as well as active plans for another one from Trenton to Camden. They have a government that gets things done (compared to NY) and I'll be damned if my state and local tax dollars are going to benefit things that don't benefit my state (like Rutgers and NJT). If that's the case then I'll take my tax dollars elsewhere, maybe Connecticut. Their goverment also get things done (compared to NY).
Let me close by saying this. Most New York State and City politicians are incompetent, bumbling bureaucrats who have never met a tax they didn't like, and are the scum of the Earth! Their ways lead to losses for the state and city. What's New York's loss will be Connecticut's or Jersey's gain. That's been happening for decades now. NY politicians need to wake up and see that.
Speaking of no rail links to JFK or LGA, there was an article on the one seat ride at http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/index.ssf?/business/ledger/fe1765.html
A better example of government incompetence and venality I can't find!
>>>> Is NYC government less competent than other government <<<<<
NYC along with other Northeast cities (and of course Chicago) have the tradition of machine politics, patronage, and outright graft which influences many economic decsions. Polititions want to satisfy what they see as their constituents to retain a power base.
The newer cities of the Sunbelt frequently have reform types in goverment who have made their money in business and are goal oriented and therefore interested in getting things done with the least amount of government.
[NYC along with other Northeast cities (and of course Chicago) have the tradition of machine politics, patronage, and outright graft which influences many economic decsions. Polititions want to satisfy what they see as their constituents to retain a power base.]
NYC's atrocious governance runs worse than just machine politics. Chicago, as you noted, is the _ne plus ultra_ of machine politics, but at least the politicians there can get things done. Consider that the el runs to both of the city's airports. Boston, Philadelphia, even Detroit are other older cities with machine politics, to a greater or lesser extent, that nonetheless display far more competence than NYC when it comes to public works.
[The newer cities of the Sunbelt frequently have reform types in goverment who have made their money in business and are goal oriented and therefore interested in getting things done with the least amount of government]
Which is why I stand behind my belief that municipal bankruptcy would be NYC's salvation. It would enable a clean sweep approach that would get rid of the elements that are dragging the city down - the clueless bureaucrats, the anencephalitics on the City Council, the greedy unions, and so on. There would be a chance for a fresh start, which indeed might bring a reform, pro-business element into city politics. I see municipal bankruptcy as being a virtually risk-free step.
(Which is why I stand behind my belief that municipal bankruptcy would be NYC's salvation.)
Having observed it first hand, I doubt that NYC is worse run than other local governments. The incompetence you mention was, in fact, partially removed by a near bankrupcy in the 1970s. Fortunately, we have a control board and others looking over out shoulders.
Nassau should definately be allowed to go bankrupt. Otherwise, everyone who has gotten a great deal out of it will continue sucking money out by contract. Here in the city, a few hospital bankrupcies would be a good thing.
[I doubt that NYC is worse run than other local governments]
I'll give that statement more consideration this afternoon, as I enjoy my ride on the Second Avenue Subway.
With the NYC and NYC suburban economy the way it is, and the NYS (upstate)economy finally showing some signs of growth, I actually think that the bad times of the last 30 years may begin to resolve. The reports are that there is now a considerable amount of broad based economic growth in the outer boroughs and in some upstate areas. As the number of employed workers grows there will be more people to share in the tax burden, so the state and city may be able to continue reducing taxes, thus making NY a more competitive business location. But NY will need to keep its penchant for spending under some degree of control, or it will piss away its chances to be more competitive. We'll see.
[With the NYC and NYC suburban economy the way it is, and the NYS (upstate)economy finally showing some signs of growth, I actually think that the bad times of the last 30 years may begin to resolve. The reports are that there is now a considerable amount of broad based economic growth in the outer boroughs and in some upstate areas. As the number of employed workers grows there will be more people to share in the tax burden, so the state and city may be able to continue reducing taxes, thus making NY a more competitive business location. But NY will need to keep its penchant for spending under some degree of control, or it will piss away its chances to be more competitive. We'll see.]
I agree with your assessment, although I have to caution that tax reductions by themselves won't be enough to make the area more competitive. They have to be seen as a component of a whole panoply of improvements that are urgently needed. In particular, the city has to learn how to get public works built in shorter time spans than those used to measure geologic eras. Any place that takes a year to fix a subway station escalator is never going to be able to compete on level terms with competent places such as Sunbelt cities. And we don't even need to mention the Second Avenue debacle.
What I see is just more fiscal irresponsibility. The MTA going into hock while it builds a completely unnecessary tunnel for the LIRR and does nothing to adress other needs. Bailouts for rich counties. Fancy new medical insurance programs that are all very nice but that other state don't have, making us even less competitive than we already are.
Those sunbelt pols--they were all Democrats before they all became Republicans after the Dems deserted them on civil rights legislation--are corrupt as hell.
I'll have to disagree strongly with you on that one. I'm only familiar with North Carolina politics, but at least in my state the corrupt ones have largely been Democrats. To cite three examples, our former Attorney General, Rufus Edmisten, was convicted on a number of fraud and misuse of public funds charges, the current (or immediately former - they may finally have booted him out, I'm not sure) Secretary of Transportation is under indictment on similar charges, and the late Lt. Governor Jimmy Green became an arsonist after he left office because he didn't have the kickback money coming in any more. And those three are just the tip of the iceberg. Our Republicans have not been immune from legal violations - a state representative from Cabarrus County (where my parents live) whose name escapes me at the moment, a man who also happens to be a minister, was convicted on a number of serious morals charges earlier this year - but there haven't been any corruption charges that I recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I'll have to disagree strongly with you on that one. I'm only familiar with North Carolina politics, but at least in my state the corrupt ones have largely been Democrats. To cite three examples, our former Attorney General, Rufus Edmisten, was convicted on a number of fraud and misuse of public funds charges, the current (or immediately former - they may finally have booted him out, I'm not sure) Secretary of Transportation is under indictment on similar charges, and the late Lt. Governor Jimmy Green became an arsonist after he left office because he didn't have the kickback money coming in any more. And those three are just the tip of the iceberg. Our Republicans have not been immune from legal violations - a state representative from Cabarrus County (where my parents live) whose name escapes me at the moment, a man who also happens to be a minister, was convicted on a number of serious morals charges earlier this year - but there haven't been any corruption charges that I recall.]
I'm not sure you can judge solely on the basis of corruption charges.
For every one that's caught, 1000 aren't, and I'm not sure that there's enough of a statistical base to go on.
There are places where Democrats or Republicans are more honest--both in the Massachusetts town where I use to live and in NYC the Repubican party is generally more honest, while in Nassau county the Dems are the reformers and the Republicans the crooks. But overall it seems to me that the honest part usually the one that's less entrenched in a given area, because over a long period the bottom feeders move to the one that controls the boodle and the reformers to the opposition. But I'm not familiar with southern politics at the local level--just with tales of very crooked state governors and congressmen who get payments from hog farmers and such. And sometimes you get a guy who's fairly clean himself but has bedded down with a corrupt machine--Mayor Koch here in NY, Bill Clinton in his Arkansas days, Harry Truman as a state legislator, etc.
I was sorely disappointed by Pataki. I expected him, as a moderate Republican, to be a fiscal conservative. Instead, he keeps coming up with new health care programs--all perfectly nice, and all guaranteed to keep New York State completely uncompetitive for anything except people on the dole.
The Republicans and Democrats in this state differ only in their favorite ways of wasting money.
(The Republicans and Democrats in this state differ only in their favorite ways of wasting money. )
The Republican revolution amounts to this -- Giuliani cuts services in the city, Pataki hands out the savings to the rest of the state. New York State is a passive aggressive place. It seems to pay to be irresponsible.
[The Republican revolution amounts to this -- Giuliani cuts services in the city, Pataki hands out the savings to the rest of the state. New York State is a passive aggressive place. It seems to pay to be irresponsible.]
Time for that bankruptcy proposal again!
[Time for that bankruptcy proposal again!]
My thoughts exactly ... as I've stated so many times that it's become obsessive :-) It bothers me that Abe Beame, aka the Killer of Second Avenue, has been _praised_ for having "saved" the city from bankruptcy during the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. NYC today would be a far better place if it had gone bankrupt back then. And yes, the Second Avenue line most likely would be running today.
(Speaking of Dishonest Abe, I wish he would hurry up and kick the bucket - he's one of my entries on a Dead Celebrities pool, and the year's almost half over).
[My thoughts exactly ... as I've stated so many times that it's become obsessive :-) It bothers me that Abe Beame, aka the Killer of Second Avenue, has been _praised_ for having "saved" the city from bankruptcy during the fiscal crisis of the 1970's. NYC today would be a far better place if it had gone bankrupt back then. And yes, the Second Avenue line most likely would be running today.
(Speaking of Dishonest Abe, I wish he would hurry up and kick the bucket - he's one of my entries on a Dead Celebrities pool, and the year's almost half over).]
LOL, I think that guy kicked the bucket before he took office!
Seriously, who ever said good things about Abe Beame? I thought he was universally reviled as a senile bureacrat who never understood what had gone wrong.
I recall being in favor of bankruptcy at the time--my views may have changed since then, but I saw it as a great way to shake off parasites. Heh, would I have loved to be the judge! I would have snuck into the MTA in disguise, counted the number of people who weren't at their desks, and fired the same number . . . bankruptcy would do wonders for Nassau County right now.
Beame was born in London. I wonder who the last mayor before him was born outside of the US. Must have been a few in the colonial days of course.
He was also the first Jewish mayor.
Wasn't he also the city comptroller under George Goober Lindsay? Of all jobs for he wasn't qualified!
I thought LaGuardia was the first Jewish mayor and Koch the second?
[I thought LaGuardia was the first Jewish mayor and Koch the second?]
LaGuardia was half Jewish and half Italian, but was a practicing Episcopalian.
I don't usually pay much attention to ethnic/religious silliness, but I must confess that's a weird combination! How does an Italian end up in the Church of England? Was his Jewish parent British?
Josh, in those days being Episcopalian was the way to join the "Establishment" and become respectable.
Still seems kinda funny :-)
Since the Italians are Catholic and the Anglicans are almost Catholic, it doesn't seem like such a stretch.
[bankruptcy would do wonders for Nassau County right now]
People who ride the LIRR's Ronkonkoma line can see for themselves just how idiotic Nassau County really is. Just west of the Bethpage station, the county police maintain a large facility at a former Grumman hangar. It used to be just the base for police helicopters*, but for the last couple of months it's also used as a storage area for out-of-service police vehicles. These vehicles appeared pretty much all at once, so they obviously had been moved there from some other storage lot.
In any event, there are at least 20 wrecked police cars in plain sight. Some of them obviously will have to be junked, but others are repairable (particularly because they're Ford Crown Victorias, which have body-on-frame construction). Yet they've just been sitting there for a couple of months. In fact, considering that it's unlikely that police cars are wrecked too often, I would imagine that at least some of them were wrecked many months ago. While it takes some time to settle insurance claims, it doesn't take *that* long. But Nassau doesn't do a blessed thing. What idiots.
* = does Nassau County really need three police helicopters?
[* = does Nassau County really need three police helicopters? ]
The problem in a nutshell--that and the fact that they don't bother to collect taxes
[I believe that in a dense enough corridor, with fair labor contracts and pensions, and without featherbedding, rail transit can be self-supporting on an auto-equivalent basis.]
Which means, in effect, that it would be impossible for an existing transit agency to run the new line - the unions would immediately swoop in. You'd have to have an entirely new agency in charge.
You know what - I think the reality is that the line would have to be run by a private company. No governmental agency can stand up to the unions. Transit will have to come full circle back to profit-oriented private ownership operating under a franchise from the municipality. Ironic, isn't it?
(No governmental agency can stand up to the unions.)
I'd say we're getting fair value out of the TWU at this point, and the subway is probably breaking even on an auto-equivalent basis. The LIRR is another matter -- it's a sinecure, not a job.
Perhaps no government agency can stand up to a predominantly white suburban union. We'll see if Nassau County's employees agree to staff, and get paid, at NYC levels, or if the state will just keep giving Nassau more and more money.
[Perhaps no government agency can stand up to a predominantly white suburban union. We'll see if Nassau County's employees agree to staff, and get paid, at NYC levels, or if the state will just keep giving Nassau more and more money.]
Not when the Governor counts on their votes, anyway . . .
1. Brooklyn Circle Routes: The line from Ridgewood to 60th Street is the old LIRR Bay Ridge branch. The MTA must own it, although I think the New York and Atlantic runs whatever freight service is left. There is plenty of room between Brooklyn College and East New York - enough for four tracks, I think - although it's tight between the College and New Utrecht Ave., with room for only two.
I've heard that the MTA wants to extend the Nostrand Ave. subway onto the Bay Ridge Branch to provide turnaround and storage space. They might as well provide passenger service too, at least as far as East Flatbush and perhaps to a connection with the L train.
2. Bronx Crosstown: Yes, this is an area that needs something; the Bx12 is overloaded even with articulateds. How about extending the A train to the Bronx and under Fordham Road? This would: 1) provide an alternative to the overcrowded 4 train for those going to the Financial District; 2) serve a lot of local shopping/visiting trips between the Bronx and Washington Heights; 3) provide Bronx access to the George Washington Bridge Bus Terminal.
Regarding the Bay Ridge line, if it were to be converted for transit use I really think it MUST be done to the standards of a subway line given the possible tie-ins to the existing subway system (for instance at 8th Ave-Sea Beach or Livonia-New Lots on the L). It doesn't make sense to install an incompatible mode of light rail. The ROW already exists, the connections to existing lines are obvious. If it's going to be done do it right the first time!
(If it were to be converted for transit use I really think it MUST be done to the standards of a subway line).
One could certainly use third rail power and standard track. If the vehicles could run in the subway, then they could be maintained and stored in subway yards.
BUT crosstown lines are unlikely to carry as many people as a subway line requires to be cost effective. What we are really looking for crosstown is a faster, better, bus route in its own right of way. And to serve passengers you want frequent service, not a longer train. I don't think one can justify the expenditure required for station fare control and 600 foot long plaforms on a crosstown route. I mean, look at the G -- a half train every 10 to 12 minutes.
Better to build stations without fare control and with 150 foot long platforms, and rely on an on-board farebox. And have service every four to eight minutes or less. You could still have station connections to the subway where applicable.
Since the existing stations on the Sea Beach Line have high plaforms, a high-floor LRV should be used such as the new Alstom LRVs that operate in Hannover, Germany. Those are very nice LRVs. There are plenty of pictures of them on the European Railway Server website (mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/trams/Hannover/pix.html).
As for storage, a small area of Coney Island could be converted to handle them. The Coney Island shops could be equipped to service them.
You guys are nuts. Heavy rail costs SO much more to build then Light Rail does. So why in the world would we want to take a perfectly good Heavy rail line, already fully grade-seperated, and turn it into a Light Rail line? That makes no sense. The big problems with the BMT southern division are the bottlenecks getting into Manhattan. If the Sea Beach and the New Utrech Ave. (N & B) were routed onto the south-side Manhattan bridge tracks and then through Canal St. to at least 57th, more service could be added on the M, N, R, B, D, Q. ALL those lines could get more service. There is also room on the F to run trains every 3-4 minutes - if the F's ran express from Church to Bergen and the G served the local stops in between (this would also give another reason to justify the G's existence).
The G should be converted to light rail to allow street extensions at both ends.
No, the G should operate more frequently and go to Manhattan. If you reroute F trains through the 63rd St tunnel with the Q (which would return to Broadway) G trains could operate throught the 53rd St tunnel putting them fairly close to the heart of Manhattan. Then they could continue crosstown to serve the Intrepid Museum.
So what would happen to the G in Brooklyn from Court Sq. to Smith-9th St.?
We've been through this before. Ideally the G tracks would be re-directed to Jay Street, and merged into the 63rd Street tunnel, so the G could run as a loop. Each of those connections would be costly, however, and way down the list of priorities.
The only way I ever see it happneing is as part of a grand plan to eliminate the J/Z/M and replace it with nearby subways.
With nearby stations on the E and 7 lines, Court Sq. Station would no longer be needed. The rest of the existing G line would still be used.
Since it's a dedicated ROW, it seems to me you could avoid compatibility issues by using subway equipment and running short trains with short platforms.
Fare control--bus drivers spend a lot of time collecting fares, & not only does it slow down the line but it increases the cost of providing the service because of the driver's salary. I bet it would be more cost effective to build mini-stations that take Metrocards. Not much more than an oversized bus sheleter, a platform, an iron maiden, and a gate controlled by the train, and you'd probably want platforms anyway to provide handicapped access via a ramp rather than costly wheelchair lifts.
Hmmm--
____Gate__________Gate___________Gate____
| |
RAMP----->|buzzable gate for wheelchairs |
|iron maiden for entry and exit |
|________________________________________|
That's a very good point. As a point of reference, a few years back, a friend of mine in the MTA mentioned that when the rehabilitation of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle was underway, he felt there was a missed opportunity to rebuild the ancient line using Light Rail technologies.
I insisted said although other cities have immersed themselves into LR systems, I seriously doubt that NYCT would go for a line that would be alien to the rest of the subway system. Standardization has been and always will be a theme of the NYCT/MTA.
Doug aka BMTman
Are you guys serious about the old LIRR branch being converted to subway use? It's a brilliant idea...there's no crosstown Brooklyn line in south Brooklyn. But it should have been done back in the 30s when NIMBY objections were brushed aside...
www.forgotten-ny.com
These sound like good ideas.
I'm not familiar with that area in the Bronx, but I wonder if a crosstown route couldn't be created that would take care of several problems at once, e.g., connect the Metro North tracks straight across for direct West Side access while providing local crosstown transit and linking the various subways . . .
That's because the MTA has no guts! They're afraid to do something different, something better.
(There are probably some flaws with that).
No through service to Brooklyn. I like the RPA's ideal of swinging one branch over to the Rutgers Tunnel, and one branch into the Nassau St line. With a DeKalb-Rutgers connection, you'd get more Brooklyn trains off the Manhattan Bridge. Plus we'd finally get some value out of Nassau St, which is underused today.
[No through service to Brooklyn. I like the RPA's ideal of swinging one branch over to the Rutgers Tunnel, and one branch into the Nassau St line. With a DeKalb-Rutgers connection, you'd get more Brooklyn trains off the Manhattan Bridge. Plus we'd finally get some value out of Nassau St, which is underused today.]
Seems to me one branch should go via Nassau Street, one via Water Street. The Brooklyn tunnels are overbuilt and under capacity. Since Express service would presumably feed lower manhattan whatever the plan, as it does on most other lines, people coming in from Brooklyn and heading uptown will change trains anyway.
I'd rather see that excess capacity put to use for other services, Superexpress/LIRR service, that sort of thing.
But what the hell, they won't do any of this anyway . . .
Why would you have a stop at 28th Street? IMHO they should close 28th on Lex IRT (I actually use this stop), BMT and 7th Ave IRT, also 18th Street on 7th Ave IRT. They are way too close to 23rd or 34th streets.
Arti
Why 80th and not 79th?
So is the #4 (and just the #4) the best match for 2nd Ave?
Which of the Bronx IRTs carries the most people?
Looking at the map, it seems like it would be good to funnel the #5 into 2nd avenue - I am guessing that carries more than the #4 and doing so could eliminate the sharp turn to get the #5 into grand concourse. But then you've got the #2 compatibility issue. Perhaps make the parts of the 5 and the 2 above E 180th BMT compatible, and run the BMT compatible trains only above there, then express between E 180th and Grand Concourse. The #2 would then only run local, and only up to E180th.
I doubt much of this will happen. But it would be good to see the MTA try to incrementally make the system BMT compatible. Hopefully there won't be so many IRT only tunnels in 100 years...
The MTA plans to swing the 2nd Avenue subway over to 125th and Lex and stop it there. Since the 2nd Avenue would be quicker than the Lex Local, my idea is to build a turnaround loop for the Lex Local north of 125th and hook the 2nd Avenue into the Pelham Line. The Lex Local would serve Manhattan only.
Well, if the 2nd Ave line doesn't serve the bronx at all, those folks would have the right to be hopping mad, it seems. As it is the Lex local has space on it. And I'd have to say the race card would get played, and it would be hard to argue against it!
The other alternative discussed on this board is to keep Bronx tracks the same, but extend the 2nd Avenue across 125th Street.
Absolutely--you don't need a loop, just a hit of extra track and bumpers. Then build a new tunnel and connect the 2nd avenue express (we *are* talking about things they're never going to do, aren't we) to a new line on the RR ROW, and then to the Dyre Avenue spur per the Second System proposal, and add a stop at Co-Op City . . .
I always heard that the original plan was to hook the 2nd Avenue Subway to both the upper portion of the Pelham line (starting at Whitlock)and the Dyre Avenue line. The 2nd Avenue line would head east in the south Bronx and utilize the Conrail track ROW (the same ROW that goes over the Hell Gate Bridge) to connect to these two lines. The Lexington/Pelham line would terminate at Hunts Point Avenue.
I wonder if anyone ever thought of this: since a new set of tracks would follow the railroad ROW between Whitlock and E 180th St, why not have the Lexington/Pelham line divert over new trackage to 180th St and connect with the White Plains Road line? (I.e., 4 tracks total). Then, #5 trains could run as the Lexington Ave local (eliminating the #6, as well as the nasty curve to 149th Street). The # 4 would be the sole Express (and more trains could be added to the 4).
How about this. Funnel #5 trains into the 2nd Avenue subway using by using the old NYW&B connection to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor then building a short tunnel under the Harlem River to 125th St and 2nd Av. Amtrak's Northeast Corridor in the Bronx is so wide and only a pitiful number of trains use it. Send some subway trains down the corridor!
[How about this. Funnel #5 trains into the 2nd Avenue subway using by using the old NYW&B connection to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor then building a short tunnel under the Harlem River to 125th St and 2nd Av. Amtrak's Northeast Corridor in the Bronx is so wide and only a pitiful number of trains use it. Send some subway trains down the corridor!]
Similar to what I was thinking of for the 2nd Avenue Express--I'd connect it to the Dyre Avenue spur, which was originally supposed to be part of the 2nd Avenue subway via the old el . . .
the 5 should remain IRT (at least for now).
The reason the #4 was my original choice for being turned into BMT was that it doesn't share trackage with any other line anywhere except in the Lexington tubes. Therefore it could be converted with the least service disruption. Using the old NYW&B connection would eliminate the transfer at 180th St., which would strand all the 5 people who wanna use the Broadway IRT tubes. The 4 woudl run via 2nd Av, AS WOULD the 3rd Av. El (which would be REBUILT!)
There aren't all that many to begin with. Only the Contract One and Contract Two portions were built to IRT clearances. All Dual Contracts lines, both IRT and BMT, were built to BMT specifications.
Bronx-Jerome Avenue:
Yes, this would be a prime candidate for conversion to IND/BMT standards as an extension of the Second Avenue subway. The 4 train could then originate at the existing station at 149th and the Concourse. I would maintain a track connection (around 157th and Gerard Ave., I guess) between the old and the new lines for non-revenue moves.
Lower Manhattan:
I don't think the the Second Ave. subway will ever run under the Bowery. If it gets that far, it will either run into the Nassau-Centre Street subway or use two new tracks under Chrystie Street. (Maybe both eventually, with the Nassau St. connection being done first.)
06/10/2000
On this site as eleswhere, I've seen images of the UMTA train S.O.A.C. in test service on CTA's "Skokie Swift" (Yellow line) with pantographs. Is SOAC's width 10 feet wide and CTA's cars 9 foot wide? How did they work this out? Also how where they delivered?
Bill "Newkirk"
As I recall, the platform edges at Howard and Dempster (the only two stations served by the Skokie Swift) were cut back to allow for the wider cars, with some sort of gap filler mechanism installed for the narrower CTA cars.
Any evidence of this setup is long-gone, though. The Dempster station was completely rebuilt not long ago, and the platform edges at Howard are now back to normal.
-- David
Boston, MA
I think I had read somewhere that *half* the platforms at each station were cut back so that the SOAC could pull in the first half the station and platform and regular CTA cars could pull up a little further and still platform correctly. Does that sound right?
That sounds very possible... The platforms at Howard are unusually long, and can accomidate a standard 8-car CTA train as well as the shorter Skokie Swift and Evanston trains at the same time.
-- David
Boston, MA
There will be a presentation at City Planning next week on bringing the Olympics to NYC in 2012, and the improvments that would go along with it, including such "legacies" as extending the Flushing Line west to a new Olympic Stadium, and an East River Ferry System.
It's all a fantasy, but I thought I'd add my fantasy to it -- extending the Shuttle east as well, and then south under the FDR Drive, in order to complete (with the Flushing Line extension) a two-part river to river crosstown line. The subway extension would be approximately 1/2 mile.
In Lower Manhattan, much of the commercial activity is within walking distance of the waterfront, and you can access the subway from the water at South Ferry. Not so in Midtown, and buses don't work when the M42 takes 20 minutes to travel the mile from 1st Avenue to Times Square. You need a subway to bring people to the heart of Midtown from the East and Hudson River waterfronts.
My shuttle suggestion is a completely automated, high frequency (1 minute headway) line, with stations every block. The trains would be subway compatible, but would be only 150 to 200 feet long, like extended light rail vehicles. Since the route would be short, the cars would have no seats to increase capacity and speed loading. Instead of windows, they would have as much door space as possible -- 50 percent of the side of the car if possible.
In addition to the existing stations at Times Square and Vanderbilt, stations would be added at 6th Avenue (for transfer), 5th Avenue (for an easy transfer to the Flushing Line for river to river travel), Lexington Avenue (for a shorter transfer to/from the Lex), 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Avenue/U.N., and one or two ferry dock stations to the south.
Among other things, this would allow 6th Avenue riders to get to Grand Central in a hurry using the shuttle, without walking far or waiting long to transfer.
Whaddaya thing?
Actually, I've always thought the 42nd Street Shuttle should be slabbed over and replaced with a system of airport-style moving sidewalks or conveyor belts.
There'd be one conveyor on either side of the tunnel, with a regualr walkway between them, and breaks at 6th Avenue (for transfers and street access/egress) and at 5th and Madison Avenues (street access/egress only).
Actually, I've always thought the 42nd Street Shuttle should be slabbed over and replaced with a system of airport-style moving sidewalks or conveyor belts.
There'd be one conveyor on either side of the tunnel, with a regualr walkway between them, and breaks at 6th Avenue (for transfers and street access/egress) and at 5th and Madison Avenues (street access/egress only). If the tunnel is wide enough, maybe have retail space as well.
The one reason it's faster to walk than take M42 is that it stops at every block. Especially Lex/3rd/Park, Madison/5th and Broadway/7th. I think that the shuttle should stop in mid block (1/2, 3/Lex, 5/6)
Arti
[The one reason it's faster to walk than take M42 is that it stops at every block. Especially Lex/3rd/Park, Madison/5th and Broadway/7th. I think that the shuttle should stop in mid block (1/2, 3/Lex, 5/6)]
They should really reduce the number of bus stops.
[They should really reduce the number of bus stops. ]
Yep, I think the distance b/w limited stops is adequate. I can't think of any other teansit system with so ridiculously close stops. And last but not least those close stops will certainly increase pollution. What's that paratransit for anyway?
Arti
[It's all a fantasy, but I thought I'd add my fantasy to it -- extending the Shuttle east as well, and then south under the FDR Drive, in order to complete (with the Flushing Line extension) a two-part river to river crosstown line. The subway extension would be approximately 1/2 mile.]
It sounds like a good idea, which of course means that it'll never be built :-(
Has the city finally kiboshed the idea for the 42nd Street light rail?
(Has the city finally kiboshed the idea for the 42nd Street light
rail?)
My guess is, it's under study.
[(Has the city finally kiboshed the idea for the 42nd Street light
rail?)
My guess is, it's under study.]
Police officer (at door): Good evening, ma'am. Are you the wife of John Smith?
Woman: Yes, I'm Susan Smith. Is my husband all right?
Police officer: Please have a seat, Mrs. Smith. I'm afraid I have very bad news for you. Mr. Smith is under study.
Here's what I have to say about the 42nd Street LR:
GOOD RIDDANCE.
There's nothing stupider than wasting money to build a glorified bus that can't even go around cars.
(Here's what I have to say about the 42nd Street LR: GOOD RIDDANCE).
I agree, but the need it was intended to meet remains. Hence my suggestion to run the Shuttle East, along with the Flushing line west, to create a crosstown subway. More money, but more useful. And either the dam will break and it will be possible to do things, or it won't.
We'd all love to see it happen.
Perhaps a setup like that on state st. in chicago, a continuous station, would be a good idea here. That way stations can be added and changed effortlessly.
But whatever you do, specify standard subway rolling stock from the beginning. Then, once its built, maybe bring in different rolling stock. If a line is designed with specific rolling stock, they'll never make it subway compatible - which would drive future posters on SubTalk banannas.
(But whatever you do, specify standard subway rolling stock from the beginning).
It would have to be subway compatible, and capable of being manually operated, to get it up to the 207th St shop for maintenance.
Ok, but you also want to make it so that standard subway rolling stock can use the new ROW.
(Ok, but you also want to make it so that standard subway rolling stock can use the new ROW. )
Not sure I agree there. Certainly individual IRT cars should be able to use it. I propose 150 to 200 foot "trains" -- so the new stations only need to be 150 to 200 feet long. I don't see the point of 500 foot platforms for the shuttle extension. The goals should be very frequent service instead.
I guess I think that someday we might want to run through service to this line, or might want to extend the line somewhere. So better to start off with a line that the normal equipment can make it through. For that matter, build it so BMT equipment can go through it with minimal modification.
I bet the MTA would oppose giving any line the kind of service you propose, because then everyone would want such frequent service...
[I bet the MTA would oppose giving any line the kind of service you propose, because then everyone would want such frequent service...]
If the trains went to ZPTO, every line could have 2 minute headway service--24 hours a day.
My big question is--why have a two part 42nd Street line when you already have the #7? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a single crosstown line, particularly since the #7 tunnels are already in place and provide direct access for people from Queens? The trick would be to add a station at second avenue for the #7--not trivial because it's deep and on a grade, but less expensive I think building a new tunnel.
Also, adding a 6th Avenue stop to the shuttle would slow things down on the main route, 42nd to TS. It seems to me that if you want to add a 6th Avenue stop the thing to do is to split the shuttle in two--two tracks with longer trains service TS to GCT and originating at the original shuttle station next to the Lex rather than a block away, and the other two tracks split in two for direct automated TS-6th and GCT-6th shuttles or people movers. The alternative would be to move the 5th Avenue station to 6th on the #7.
Ok, so while I'm shooting holes in things , I think that stations a block apart are too close for a subway. Subway trains are on the order of a long block long. So--
Walking to a station with 2 block spacing--avg. walk 1/4 block, maximum walk 1/2 block if there are entrances at both ends
Now walk to the desired end of the train, usually *while you're waiting for it*
Now emerge and walk an average of 1/4 block, a maximum of 1/2 block
Average crosstown walking time approx equivalent to 1/2 block, maximum equivalent to 1 block
Compute the saving in walking distance for 1 block vs 2 block saving, and compare to the average time added to a trip by having twice as many stops . . .
I went onto subtalk and Trevor gave me the Schedules for the R142 on the 2 and 6 lines. Can you please reprint them and send them to me in my Email? Railroadman43@Altavista.com
Thank you
Uh, this is SubTalk.
The schedules are still posted, just look for them. We aren't an email service. Sorry.
-Dave
FOR THE LAST TIME: I AM WORKING ON MAKING A SCHEDULE WITH NOT ONLY THE STARTING TIMES BUT TIMES AT INTERMEDIATE STATIONS. I WILL FINISH ALMOST ALL OF IT BY TOMORROW!
Sorry for the caps but the constant asking of where is the schedule is getting annoying. In the future, do a search or scroll down before you ask your question.
Even SEPTA's hopping on the Republican bandwagon for this summer's convention.
Similar to the Millenium Pass for New Year's, SEPTA is offering two types of unlimited passes for use of various lengths on the system.
Also, SEPTA is considering closing the following Regional Rail stations because of low ridership. Their status will be evaluated at several Community Meetings coming soon.
The stations are:
R8-North Philadelphia(separate from the R7/Amtrak North Philadelphia station)
R3-Angora in SW Philadelphia
R5-Delaware Valley Community College near Doylestown
R7-Wissinoming on the NE Corridor line south of Torresdale in NE Philly
R2-Crestmont on the Warminster branch and Lamokin on the Wilmington branch.
The R8 is not the same station as the R7 at North Philadelphia? I know they use separate platforms, but I've assumed they were connected. That isn't true?
Also, Lamokin won't be hard to close since it isn't much of a station. I can never see it when I take the Metroliner to New York.
They are technically the same station but the R8 uses separate, smaller platforms north of the R7/Amtrak station. The R8 branches off the mainline just south of the station.
DVARP has been whining about the fact that septa has too many stations for a long time now. It makes the trains so slow... Maybe this is a good sign?
I was just reading one of my many pennsylvania-reading Seashore Lines books trying to get information about the early "Bridge Line" and following PATCO system. My book showed the origional planning map for the Bridge Line routes in both Philly and Camden. some of the Proposed Philly routes included a 180 turn at the bridge and a connection to the ferry slips and MFL spur at the waterfront, a new subway along Filbert or Race St. to interchange w/ both Reading Terminal and Suburban Station (the terminus would have been under logan circle and a possible extention to Roxbourgh was considered). I also learned that the BSL was dug at a depth to allow extention of the PRR Suburban Station further into Centre City. 50 years later this forward thinking allowed for the construction of the commuter tunnel. I also learned that when the Ben franklin bridge first opened it only had 5 lanes of traffic. The 2 outer traffic lanes were reverved for streetcar traffic along with the 2 tracks outside of the truss. Sone plans called for both Bridge Line tracks to be located on one side of the bridge. These 2 streetcar lanes were not paved for car traffic until 1949. I also learned that the Bridge Line would connect with the existing Locust St. subway. does anyone know when the LSS was built and what ran on it? I presume it was connected to the Broad Ridge Subway, but was there continuous service along the BRS and LSS before the Bridge Line came along?
Almost all of the answers you seek can be found elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Does anyone know when the LSS was built and what ran on it?]
The Locust Street Subway was built in the 1930's but was left uncompleted until 1953. It opened on Feb 15, but was used only part time.
Some bridge trains continued from 8th & Market to 16th & Locust, some reversed direction and went back to Camden, and some reversed direction and went to Broad and Girard via Ridge Ave.
I haven't ridden the Ridge Ave spur since the Phillies abandoned Shibe Park/Connie Mack Stadium.
Bob
What is the best logo? From the boston 'T' to the PATCO bridge and rails. The NJT 'NJ', the SEPTA pantograph thing, the LIAR keystone, the VRE diamond, the PATH 'P' and the MTA "speeding MTA". For years transit systems have trued to luse riders with catchy logos (instead of bettre service). which one is your favorite?
The old Centro (Syracuse) logo was a layered letter "C" which, so help me G-d, resembeled a SNAIL!!!!! T*R*U*T*H in advertising ***BUSES STINK*** GIVE US RAIL
SEPTA's logo is supposed to be two arrows(Going both ways) forming an S.
In terms of simplicity, versatility and clarity, I think Boston's T logo takes the cake.
I developed my own proposed logo for a rebuilt Chicago el system, although at the time I wasn't aware of the distinction between the generic "el" and the Chicago-specific "L". One of these days I'll have to create a logo for the latter.
In the meantime, here's mine:
-- David
Boston, MA
06/10/2000
The best transit logo to me was the NYCTA stylized "TA" seen first on the R-33/36 Flushing cars and continued to the R-40 slants.
Honorable mention goes to the red,white and green colored BMT LINES logo. Which looks very much like that NEWKIRK IMAGES logo seen on those subway calendars that guy puts out !!!
Worst logo goes to the MTA whose new logo looks like something seen on PAC-MAN !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Coolest logo has to be either the LIRR's dashing dan, or the LIRR keystone.
Or the EARLY two tone MTA one that the M-1s used to have.
Other cool ones: Path, Muni, Bart
Stupid logos? Current MTA one, the generic M for Metro used by less creative cities, Amtrak's "Pointless Arrow" (Fitting though, because Amtrak is pointless).
Oh yeah, GE's logo is cool. And they haven't changed it in 100 years. Look at an old trolley controller some day. Has any other major company not changed their logo much over the years?
The old Board of Transportation logo was pretty neat,too...remeber when the TA first started installing car washers, and you could see the logo again? [not to mention the "City of New York" on the old R units..] Then the gaffitti scourge hit..
I like San Francisco's script for Muni all in one flow
If our M is generic, so is yours. At least it is easy to find when you are walking down the street, I can't find the subway enterances in NYC that easily.
I agree with Dashing Dan
It would be a smart p.r. step if the LIRR resumed using Dashing Dan. He would add a touch of humanity to what now comes off as a bumbling, bureaucracy-bound agency.
"Oh yeah, GE's logo is cool. And they haven't changed it in 100 years. Look at an old trolley controller some day. Has any other major company not changed their logo much over the years?"
I don't think Fords has changed any either....
Ford's "blue oval" dates to at least 1928, when it appeared on the radiator of the Model A. The Model T had the Ford script stamped into the radiator but no blue oval; I don't know if the blue oval was used elsewhere at that time or not. (I learned to drive on a 1929 Model A and, with only a few exceptions, have been driving Fords ever since.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or...how about the Coca-Cola scriptlogo?-actually they have brought back the red disk,sort of relegating the 'wave' design to the scrap heap....
I think the best logo is again the PRR/LIRR keystone. Other good logos include the old TA logo that say "TA" and the new Acela wing.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
I heard the Acela logo was based on a sea turtle's flipper. Given the low speed and weight of the express sets (and lousey acceleration too, from what i've read they're about as fast as the M-1s...), it's kind of fitting...
Well hopefully that hasn't rubbed off on the High Horsepower Locos. I read an article in the May 99 Trains issue on the HHLs and Acela Express trains undergoing tests in Pueblo, Colo. A senior Amtrak engineer was at the controls of an HHL and he said it had "phenomenal acceleration" and a "beefy brake." But because the Acela Express trains are custom-made (unfortunately) and only 20 of them are going to be made, it's no wonder they're having problems. They really should have went with an off-the-shelf product like the X2000
I though, don't think the Xoom.com logo is a very good one.
My favorite logo for the subway system is the 1960's TA symbol that graced the sides of most of the cars during those years.
Coming in a close second would be the very first NYCTA logo, the R-10 superimposed over the city -- and seemingly coming out of the Rockaways, where the cars were meant to be used.
Doug aka BMTman
(PS: unfortunately, I can't include another favorite, the BRT logo, as that was before the creation of the NYC Transit System).
The Budd RDCs in Santa Fe War Bonnet
avid
I think the new MTA logo is a perfect example of something that looks real neat in a board room, but sucks when applied to real life-you can't dechiper the damn thing from anything over 10 feet away on the subway or rail cars!! At least, the old two-tone "M" was instantly recognizable, even thought the meaning of the two tone scheme was a bit hazy...The old PRR-LIRR keystone was neat,instantly recognizable,and was way better than the rather bland NYC 'blimp'.Also it was pretty neat how nicely the Erie was able to adapt its "E" into a combined "EL", when the merger with the Lackawanna took place..
I also thought Penn Central's mating worms were cool!
The 2 colour worms are even better There is a white P red C comba and a orange P white C combo.
I always liked the previous MTA light blue/dark blue 'M' logo. It looks very professional to me and can still be found on many buses and subway cars.
The Wrong Island's Dashing Dan logo has always been my favorite.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My two favorite Transit logo's were the speeding TA from the 1960's and the old OA logo blue and red.
On a tangent, I'm a big fan also of the logo's of various highway and motorcycle police patrols. My favorites being the wing on wheels of the San Diego motorcycle patrol and very similiar to it the Puerto Rico highway patrol which I saw painted on the window of a plain Red Mustang which had a dash mounted radar unit! Also, the California Highway patrol have the wings on wheels. The most basic one is the NYC highway patrol with a arrow through the wheel.
As much as transit systems like to be seperate they all need a link to the outside rail world for delivery of ties and rail and rolling stock. For example the BSL's link it at Fern Rock and PATH's connection is just about everywhere because it is a railraod. I know that the PATCo's link used to be at 8th and market to the BRS and from there stuff would be brought from Fern Rock. But they have torn this connection out and now I have no clue where they are connected. (I do not believe there to be a connection at Lindenwold). Can any of you other subtalkers inform me of other rail links for other systems?
The Los Angeles Metro Red Line has a connecting track in its shop/yard facility to Amtrak/Metrolink trackage.
There used to be a connection track at PATCO Lindenwold to the rail line runing parallel to it in the mid-1980's.
PATCO is still connected to NJT in Lindenwold. A spur (switch points facing east) coming off the NJT track at the station connects with a PATCO track coming out the west end of the PATCO shop complex.
Although PATCO was connected with the BSS via the Ridge Ave spur, I believe (this is memory speaking now) their rolling stock was delivered from PRSL down a (now disconnected, but still there) ramp just east of the Broadway station.
Bob
The CTA has a rail link on the South Side on the Jackson Park branch of the Green Line, right where the route turns east down 63rd Street. There may be other links in the system as well, but this is the only one that I know of for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if there was also a link up near the Skokie Shops complex. That would seem like a logical place to put a rail link.
-- David
Boston, MA
St. Louis Metrolink has a connection just west of the shop, between the Grand Ave. and Union Station stops.
Auction closes about 8pm this evening! eBay Item 351004494, Brooklyn Trolley and Ebbets Field Photo from 1947. No reserve, minimum bid applies. Negative-original (not a copy, nor a scan, but printed from the actual camera negative), an 8x10 inch copyright-registered photograph of one of the most famous scenes in Brooklyn, New York. This extremely sharp and clear photo, taken November 6, 1947, just after the end of the baseball season, shows Brooklyn in its finest hour. As all Brooklyn Dodger fans are aware, the team was originally known as the “Trolley Dodgers” since the fans found it necessary to dodge the numerous trolley lines that operated in the not only in the entire Borough of Brooklyn but especially in the vicinity of Ebbets Field (opened April 9, 1913; closed September 24, 1957 after after the last game; demolished February 23, 1960; replaced by a huge housing project). Ironically, the last trolley operated in Brooklyn on October 31, 1956, but an electric trolleybus line (#48-Lorimer Street) continued to operate past the stadium until it too was replaced by diesel buses on July 27, 1960. This classic photo shows two of Brooklyn’s famous “Peter Witt” type trolleys southbound on Franklin Avenue, about to turn west onto Empire Boulevard; trolley #8346 is in the foreground. Note also the classic two-color cast iron traffic signal (the last of which was replaced in Far Rockaway, Queens about five years ago), the standard Brooklyn “Trolley Station” sign and Mel’s Expert Repairs, who also offered parking at a monthly rate of ten dollars. The photograph was taken by Robert Wasche, noted trolley and transportation photographer, who walked and photographed, generally block-by-block, each of Brooklyn’s trolley and elevated lines, starting upon his return from the U.S. Military in World War II, photographing a clean and dependable means of transportation never to be forgotten. The photograph is hand-printed and developed on Agfa archival glossy stock, and will last a lifetime under proper storage conditions. The labels and cross-hatch lines shown on the photograph below do not, of course, appear on the actual photograph. Here is an opportunity to possess an original photograph of one of brooklyn’s most classic and historic scenes. •For further information or additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you wouldn’t want to miss an item you were looking for. Over 25,000 items in all categories are to be listed in the future. •Buyer pays shipping/insurance.
Joe, do us all a favor and keep your personal eBay auctions off the board. I've got transit-related items offered out there right now myself, but this isn't a commercial website so I don't advertise them here. If someone wants to find those items I'm sure they'll be checking eBay themselves.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you Joe for the information.
Eye agree and have been tempted to use the "Kill File" feature for the first time. Advertising an event & saying that you'll be there or that you're getting their in you own bus is just fine but pointing out wares for sale is something we realy don't want to see here.
Mr t__:^)
Traveling Hudson-Bergen recently, and hearing a first-month complaint that northbound cars from Bayonne were timed to miss a connection to West Side Avenue (maybe corrected since), I began to wonder how coordinated the old Public Service Coordinated Transport was (in the days of streetcars, buses, and all-service vehicles). Was the coordination merely that the routes intersected (as at Journal Square terminal), or was there an attempt to schedule meets at the most popular transfer points? Nowadays, the only coordinated systems I can think of are "pulse" bus systems (as in Danbury??), where single-bus routes converge at a central point simultaneously each hour. Thanks.
I rode on Public Service Coordinated Transport frequently during their dying days, just before the state took over. At that time, they were anything but coordinated.
Peace,
ANDEE
Today I went up to East 180th Street with my new digital camera to take some pictures of the IRT that I will use for my website. Eventually I got there and asked several MTA workers in the reflective vests if they would let me stand on the employee only crossover so I could take birds eye view pictures. After quizzing me on the subway to see if I was a real buff they agreed. Not only did I get to take pictures on the walkway, they let me into the barn. I saw two sets of R142's and took pictures of them. Unfortunately I was so nervous and excited that only two of the pictures weren't blurry. I also got some more shots of the interior of the barn. It was a great experience and I was thrilled to be so close to the 142's. Outside in the layup tracks there was a 5 incorrectly signed as the "SS" I also got a picture of that.
Here it is (230K)
Here is one of the 142's (302K)
And last but not least...
What is this push box at 3rd Ave 149th St. for?
-Harry
06/10/2000
Re: Push button
You push that button and all station announcements are clearly understandably for 30 minutes!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, are you sure that's not the IRT Self-distruct button that I've heard so much about?
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
harry... just a wild guess...is that button put up to notify all emergency services in the unlikely event an r 142 derails?
i haven't trashed the 142's in a while,i feel better
That's the "emergency power off" button :)
--Mark
Makes me want to say hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds.
That one on the left has some noticeable corrosion beneath the windows.
What a surprise to see an SS sign, although it's possible those roller curtains may have been printed when double letters were still being used.
That is the punch box for Mott Av used by Thru-Express trains requesting the middle track signal routing. At night, it tells Paul to send more UFOs.
Speaking of which, the picture of the "SS" that High St took a picture of departed the East this evening for a shop move to 207th St. The car in question is 8784-85.
Did anyone notice something else at the East? The cars that derailed north of 59th St about 2 months ago are back home. 7888 and 89 are there, as is 8696 and 8697. I believe 8696 and 97 are back on the road as of now. I observed 7888 and 89 which are sitting apart from the rest near the fencing, and they appeared to have gotten the wheel sets replaced, with one truck sporting a new shoe beam assembly. Surprisingly, shop personnel apparently didn't swap out those trucks because these don't appear to have been overhauled. Worn parts from the trucks in the derailment were replaced out of necessity to get the cars on the road.
-Stef
I'm sorry, but I can't see the images. Could you please make sure they are in place, or post them again? Thank you.
When I started exploring NY subways in the mid-1980s, there were numerous trains that were painted white on the outside. Most of these seemed (to me) to be on the IRT. Were these trains painted to cover up grafitti? And what R-model trains were used?
Also, on July 4, 1986, I rode an "A" into B'klyn that had dark GREEN paint on the outside. I imagine this was an older train being used in anticipation of massive holiday crowds: the Statue of Liberty was being rededicated that weekend. I'd never been on an A that ran express in Brooklyn on Saturday!
Those were most definatley the GOH'ed R10's being used to provide supplemental service on the A line that day.
As for the whitebirds, they were all IRT trains, mostly the R17-R36 variety. Probably the dumbest attempt to curb grafitti, as they made their subway cars seem like blank canvasas.
And no sooner than they came out of the paint shops all dressed in white, the punks went to town defacing them with graffitti both inside and out. That's why I wanted to see the then-new R62s go to the #2 line. Unfortunately that didn't happen...
Probably the dumbest attempt to curb graffiti, as they made their subway cars seem like blank canvasas.
This was EXACTLY the reason. The TA was trying to find out where grafitti "artists" were tagging the trains, and painted some in the "graffiti resistant white" scheme to "lure" these people out. When the first few trains were painted white, it seemed to have the opposite effect - they weren't tagged!
--Mark
Here's one of those whitebirds...doesn't it just scream "tag me!":
look on the plus side...
easy to see in the dark!
Does anyone remember which line was first with the current redbird paint scheme and the name the TA called the program?
Probably the Eastern Division's J and M lines as the rebuilt R30s were the first to get this color, with minor interior differences over the years, starting sometime around 1984 or so. All Carbon Steel cars, except those in the museum and work train fleet have been repainted in this scheme. Cars from the R17 and R36 fleet started off with their interior's unrepainted since their white coats of paint, including orange door panels and beige walls.
No R21 or R22's recieved the redbird scheme, and neither did the bulk of the R17 fleet. These cars remained in their blue and white paint schemes, mostly covered in grafitti, until their untimely demise in 1987. The handful of redbird R17's did last into early 88 on the TS shuttle and occasionally on the #5.
I forgot to mention:
Redbird R30's did not show up on the J line until the autumn of 1985. For about a year prior to this, the bulk of the J line was made up of R16's and R27's (which were never GOH'd) and an occasional R42.
The first red cars appeared on the #7 line in the Spring of 1984. The program was called the Clean Car Program, but the paint scheme was originally dubbed "Silverfox."
David
I remember those, after an excursion to Shea Stadium in 5/84. The red cars were quite a departure from the all white and white/blue cars I remembered from previous seasons.
For about a year during the transition from white to red WF cars, you'd see '7' trains in service with cars alternating from one color to another. Very strange sight!
This phenomenon had previously occurred in the early seventies when all non-stainless steel models began to sport the gray with blue-stripe job. There are some funny pictures in the Rolling Stock pictures.
...until they got defaced with all that graffitti.
[... doesn't it just scream "tag me!" ...]
How about "save me" ... somebody did & she's still running just fine thank you very much !
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, ain't that something.... How do we know if that's not 6688 in the picture? Plus 6688's being worked on in the shop and she's had her white paint exposed, as well as the Silver Blue Scheme. Of course, some artist had to scrwal his initials into the side of our baby, and it's visible on the car after 16 years.
-Stef
That tells you they didn't do a whole lot of prepping when cars were repainted. Many times they just painted over the graffiti.
Personally, I think "Pigeon" would be a better nickname than Whitebird. Redbird, OTOH, has a nice ring to it.
Yeah. While I was priming 6688's roof sometime ago, her roof was decked out in a shiny coat of white.... Until she got assaulted by a flying bird who left some excrament for fun. My stomach dropped to the floor and I was muttering obscenties to myself. Oh well! When my baby got back into the shop, I cleaned that nasty spot off.
Painting off the car.... Well the TA only sprays one coat of paint on top of another. They're not taking many painstaking months to get the car perfect, they just need to get them in service ASAP. We on the other hand are peeling the car down to the bare metal, and wiping the grafitti away with a propane torch.
-Stef
Yes it's been very interesting to see what we discovered hiding under the red paint, but you should have added, that in the process we have discovered rust and other problems that have needed attention, e.g. blocked drain holes near the doors, rust from inside near windows, rust in back of number plates, etc. The bottom line is that our beloved R-17 will have many many more years of loyal service at Shoreline thanks to what started out being some cosmetic work to give her a fresh coat of paint.
Can you see the light at the end of the tunnel, I think I can just barely make it out :-)
Mr t
In a nutshell, the R-17 had many flaws that needed to be fixed. I'm still in the process of working out various items relating to the cosmetic rehab of the car. But as time goes by, all of this car's needs will be addressed. And yes, I can see light at the end of the tunnel. I'll need to find the time to do some interior work once her outer shell is done.
-Stef
Chris R16:
I never saw a WHITEBIRD except in pictures. It would look like the perfect target for a graffiti artist. It practically screams "Write on me!"
BMTJeff
I saw them in 1984 and again in 1985 in various stages of desecration.
Pretty much all of the IRT fleet was painted white. It was an awful choice; graffitti artists loved them, and soon covered them with murals and scrawl.
The "Greenbirds" were really the IND R-10s, some of which had been overhauled. They were assigned to the "C" line, but occasionally appeared on the "A", the line they were originally on for thirty years.
wayne
I never, ever, EVER rode a single green, overhauled R10 on the A line. My only experience with these cars was on the C line, or the Rockaway shuttle (H).
Who were the fools who decided on white? Hopefully they were fired.
Might have been a descendent of General Custer.:-)
Supposedly, the idea was to paint the cars white so they could get the graffiti off as soon as it was applied. Huh?!?
As I remember it, Corona Yard was the first storage facility to get the extensive barbed wire treatment to keep the graffiti 'artists' out back in the early 1980's. It was explained to me then that the R-33's and R-36's on the #7 were then painted white as a true test of how successful these eradication efforts were. I think the intent truly was to have the cars scream 'Tag Me!'
As an added side bonus, once the efforts to eliminate graffiti began to work, the Whitebirds also provided a devastating psychological blow to the graffiti taggers - the white cars were a tantalizing target, but the 'artists' either couldn't get to them or if they did tag the cars it was cleaned off right away.
The latter point was important, because as I understand it, part of the appeal of painting graffiti on subway cars was the ability to 'showcase' one's work to all the other taggers across the city. What good was it to spend all of one's time fighting for a chance to get at a subway car, only to have your efforts removed almost immediately?
In any case, it eventually worked, even if some Whitebirds looked horrible at times.
- Jim (RailBus)
FYI, there's a "Custer" on my wife's side of the family, and a James ... odd combination don't you think ?
Aha!! That means the immortal R-10s made a guest appearance on the line they will forever be associated with much later than previously thought. Does William Padron know about this?
I can only wonder how they took the CPW express dash. They most likely thundered along as they did in the good old days. How about the Fulton St. express run? It had to be pure excitement.
Nothing beats an eyewitness account.
What color were the R17-R36 series acrs before white? Why did the TA start with the blue stripe on everything? Not only the subways IRT/BMT/IND but also Metro-North and LIRR too.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
They were mostly grey/blue stripe.
I saw some #6700-series R17 Whitebirds on the #4 line about 1986, beige interiors with CHOCOLATE BROWN doors, in a horrible state of graffitti and disrepair.
wayne
the blue stripes were the trade mark of the MTA
......I just wanted to ask the question .......Are all CTA CHICAGO subway lines now run in the opto mode today ??
This means that shooting a railfan vidieo is impossible right ??? ..
I found this out when I tried to do this back in November 1999 after my greyhound trip to New York....!!!
What a shocker that was .........
That's correct -- all lines are now OPTO (and seem to run quite a bit slower as a result), and the CTA has nearly completed the process of converting all rolling stock to full-width cabs.
-- Ed Sachs
On my last visit in March the Red line picked up a conductor at Fullerton southbound and dropped him off there northbound. How far south they rode I don't know. That has gone on for a while, perhaps they stopped that practice by now? Indeed it does slow service quite a bit. I don't like it service wise nor seeing jobs abolished but such is life. Now that there are no longer cabooses my big-road freights only have a 2 man crew..egad many over a mile long. CTA now has recorded station and service announcements on the trains.
....to the last two posts.........thank you very much ............WELL LOOKS LIKE THE SUBWAY RAILFAN VIDIEO
SHOOTING BUSINESS ( with my machine gun camcorder in 5 hour lp mode ) .......IS OUT OF BUSINESS......!!!!
.........sorry for the spelling errors & capital letters..............& thank you for the information....!!!
It's OPTO even in the Blue & Red line subway now? Last I remember, it was OPTO everywhere except running in the subway. But that was in 1997.
--Mark
23 minutes remaining!
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
subtalklive.cjb.net
I understand that the little ""sketters"" are out and alive again in new york & nyc & N. J. ????
the same ""killer""" mosquitoes that were biting people making them sick etc.... even deaths ??
I understand that they even attack subway riders & no place is safe even in new york city..
So in other words dont stand at the DYRE AVE station they will find you and zero in for the kill .....
Man !!!! you should have seen these huge giants in jacksonville florida back in 1987 !!
Also do you have lightning bugs anymore in new york & new jersey anymore ????
There are lightning bugs flashing in my back yard in New Jersey tonight!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
..........ALLRIGHT......!!!!! ( someday I must get this on vidieo ) You know mr mouse I remember "lightning bugs""....etc..
in New Jersey ...Monclair & Atlanta Georgia college park & east point ga. Also I saw a lovely ""display of lightning bugs""..!!!!
in JACKSONVILLE FLORIDA..... at a trailer park ........a nice show........!!!!!!!!!!!
Lets see if some NEW YORKERS & especially those in the SUBWAY areas of the ""killer mosquitos "?????
The mosquitoes are back, but from what I understand they have only killed birds so far. There have been no reports of people dying from the encephilitis which the skitters carry.
And yes, we still have lightning bugs. They usually appear in late summer (August or thereabouts).
Doug aka BMTman
The common firefly (lightning bug) is common and widespread here on Long Island, and usually makes its appearance from mid-June until late July, with a small second appearance around Labor day.
wayne
Sorry, no lightning bugs. Only arcing subway third rail shoes.
--Mark
..........works for me everytime....!!!!!
They're called fireflies, and they have them here a plenty.
I have posted the schedule on my web site. It is not complete, I will complete it either tomorrow or after I return from New York on Saturday. The only inconvenince caused by this is that its first day of service may be a Sunday, in which case my site would only be helpful for the southbound 2 train.
The adress for the schedule is http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm or you may access it by clicking here.
Enjoy!
Thanks for the well-done schedules. But what date do they start?
Also, is it known which line will use which manufacturer's cars?
The 2 will probably use the 6300-series Bombardier cars;
The 6 will probably use the Kawasakis.
wayne
Yes, your right.
His right?
Originally, it was this Thursday, now I've heard Sunday.
hmm could it be that enough crews weren't trained or is it mechanical? very interesting????
The schedule has been pushed back again! The new expected start date is either the last week of June or the first week of July.
Feh!
It's due to more testing that needs to be done. The bombardier sets might not start till after the start of the Kawasaki set (Damn bambadier sucks). That part is unsure right now. I will keep you posted and will inform yall when it will be in service.
I was told on Tuesday by a T.S.S that the first run out of Pelham will be the 8:08 not 6AM. He told me and my Conductor that we will be the first crew in service. Also I was told Mid July they will start running the new train.
Sounds like a SubTalk field trip in the making if I every heard one!
Well, I plan to be on the northbound #6 that's around 6pm starting at Bk. Bridge on whatever day they announce the start of the schedule. I'm sure there will be other SubTalkers around that day just by default.. :)
When will the first northbound trip be then so I can update the schedule.
Since I have the Offical Schedule for my runs with the R 142A here it goes for the 1st trip for day 1
Southbound
Lv Pelham 8:08
Lv E 177 8:18
LV 125 8:33
LV 42/GC 8:52
AR Brooklyn Bridge 9:07
Northbound
Lv Brooklyn Bridge 9:13
Lv 42/GC 9:26
LV 125 9:42
Lv E 177 10:00
AR Pelham 10:09
Since I can only get into the city on weekends I'm interested in those days. I'd really like to ride the Saturday #2 @5:04pm from 241st St and then hide on board for the magic carpet trip that gets it back to 241st for the 6:27pm run, just 5 minutes after it gets to Flatbush.
Since I'm 63 years old, I wonder if my heart can take it.
I gather there's a bug here. I suspect an 8:20 or so run for the last southbound run
Anybody know what part of town the new movie SHAFT was fimed in?
Today, on Brighton Beach Avenue between Ocean Parkway and Brighton 1st Street there was a fire in a 2 story building. I fire was huge, started at 4:30 P.M. and still is going on now (10:30 P.M.) I live 2 blocks away and the entire neighborhood was covered with black smoke. I was looking out my window when I heard a familiar sound from an R68. Woooonk Woooonk Woooonk. I instantly knew that the trains were by-passing Ocean Parkway, which was right above it. At around 7:00 P.M. all D Trains reversed at Kings Highway. There was no service to or from Stillwell Avenue. The B68 buses along Coney Island Avenue was packed with the D Train passengers. I hope nothing go to the tracks. As of now, the D Trains are stopping at Ocean Parkway and are running on the express track. I wonder where all the other D Trains went... the ones that didn't get onto the Brighton Line yet. Maybe the F Line or N Line? Any ideas?
At 10:58 PM WCBS-AM Shadow Traffic reported that there was no D service between Kings Highway and Stillwell Avenue...notwithstanding that I had just gotten off a southbound D at Sheepshead Bay and had seen several trains going northbound. Oh, well...
David
Probably the B or N, the F would not allow for the trains to stop at DeKalb, or allow for a transfer to the IRT in Brooklyn.
I also heard that there was a fire on the 1/9 line near the 181st St. Station on Friday. How did the #1 trains operate during that time?
Probably shuttle buses ran between the stations where trains had to turn around.
There was a Small fire under a Uptown No.6 at 23 Street yesterday. No.6 trains ran Express from 14 St to Grand Central for a about an hour. 20 Minutes of it was because of the fire and the other time was because the train went Brakes In Emergency 2 time south of Grand Central. This happen around 4:30 PM. Then to top it off there was a fight on my train involing 4 males at 143 Street at about 5:45PM.
There when lots of Delays on the No.6 for a saturday afternoon.
Just love it when it get's hot in the city.
Fighting be it human to human because of the heat or the longer time it takes to fight a fire with the extreme heat. Way to go NY's Bravest in battleing the heat of the fire with the heat of the day.
Let me guess: Another R36.
actually it was a R62a that burnt up
Yes, 1705 was the south motor
I rode my favorite car yesterday and found her in pretty bad shape. Some problems include:
1. Cracked storm window, crack goes right up the middle.
2. Dented cab door in 5 spots.
3. More scratches than others on the windows.
4. Floors are duct taped in two places across the entire width of the floor. If you look at the tape for a few seconds, you will note that the floor sections are moving independently of each other and causing the tape to stretch and bend.
5. NO AIR CONDITIONING!
It's that time of year again when air-conditioning underground becomes mandatory. We can all help everybody keep cool by POSTING the numbers of cars without A/C here on the board, just like Henry did regarding R32 #3730.
Make sure you make note of what line it was on, this way the correct yard superintendent can be notified.
We should cut the Redbirds some slack, since they're getting old. However, if one of them is intolerable, it should be reported.
wayne
I think most of them are in bad shape. I think it's mate has squealing brakes many times when the motor is dead, which is frequent. The storm door glass crack may be considered a deep scratch by the RCI's as an excuse not to change it! Lots of cab doors on all models are dented from vandalism. All cars on all models have scratched windows, the TA seems to be doing nothing about it at this time. As for the floors, this problem is a fleet wide R32 defect and they are in the process of getting replaced. 3494/95 have been done already. As for no air conditioning, if I see that car still running around on Monday, I'll report to the dispatcher and note it on the car defect sheet. I'll see if they can send it to the yard at nite. Thankfully, I think that pair is a Phase I.
Well Henry just [assuming you're in good health] think it could be you in bad shape like your namesake car. Just think, all my favorite equipment was junked between l955 and l964 (IRT). Where would that leave me! { I did get a reprieve..the R1-9 lasted another l2 -l3 years)
YAHOOOO!!!!
-Hank
Same reaction
I give whenever
the METS squash the Yawnkees..
Wait till next year! The Caps were cheated, but next year they will go all the way!
You DO know the reason they created the Southeast division, right?
-Hank
Aren't you a Staten ISLANDER?
No, those would be Long (suffering) ISLANDERS.
-Hank :)
You realize, of course, the Devils used to be based in Denver and were the hockey version of the Colorado Rockies. Being that as it may, I congratulate them. Too bad the Avs didn't make it to the finals.
Um, they WERE the Colorado Rockies.
They moved twice. They were the Kansas City Scouts until the move to Colorado for the 1975-76 season, and they moved to New Jersey following the 1981-82 season.
-Hank
That's what I meant. Perhaps I should have said they were the ORIGINAL Colorado Rockies. Lack of fan support didn't help, plus they weren't all that good. Back in 1981-82, there were three pro teams using the now-defunct Big Mac (McNichols Sports Arena): the Nuggets (NBA), the Rockies (NHL), and the Denver Avalanche of the Major Indoor Soccer League. From hardwood to ice to Astroturf.
Saw 3812 in service Saturday on the Boston College line going outbound coupled to 3622.
Nick
As of last week, there were six in service, the other one recently added being 3811 (used mostly for operator training).
I was at a friend's cable equipped house on Friday and got to see the subway film on the Discovery Channel. It was apparently filmed in 1997 since it referred to 1998 as in the future.
One of the things shown was a pneumatic tired subway in Paris. I remember riding a pneumatic tired subway in 1967 in Montreal. It certainly was MUCH quieter than the steel wheels I was used to, but since it was less than a year old, I thought it was an aberration that would not last.
Being as used to steel wheels as I was at the time I did not believe that a rubber pneumatic tire and concrete rail subway could be successful, but after more than 30 years Montreal still is using them and Paris, Lyon, and Marseilles all have them.
Who has more information about this type of subway? How many miles do they get to a set of tires? What are the operating costs compared to conventional steel wheels? How about maintenance on the concrete track compared to steel?
Besides the cities mentioned, Mexico City's system is also rubber-tired.
It was built by the French, just like the others. --Only THEY would try something that outlandish, after all, you've seen Citroens, right? When I was in Montreal I was surprised to see that there are rails down on the roadbed anyway!
What I wanted to see was the yard. By rights it should have been a big paved over lot, and they can drive the trains around like busses!
;-)
Dave
tires wear out faster than steel wheels last tine i checked ??
I don't know about the life expectancy of a set of rubber tires. I can tell you that NYCT expects to get 6 years from a set of steel wheels. Of course, the reality is more like 5 years but still not to shabby. New steel wheels are not expensive, relatively speaking. I have heard less than $300 per. Mounting is a straight mechanical process. I can't imagine that the rubber tires would last as long (although I suppose it would be a function of the speed, weight and the miles traveled for the vehicle). I also know that mounting them has to be more complex and given the cost of Auto tires , I can't imagine that they are as cheap. BTW, I believe that Montreal also uses steel wheels inboard from the rubber tires.
> Montreal also uses steel wheels inboard from the rubber tires.
So does Paris and probably all the others. The steel wheels are there to guide the train across points and also in case of a flat tire. So in a sense the rubber tires are an added expense on top of the steel wheels...
-Dave
There was an article in Revue Generale de l'Electricite that was published circa 1964 that went into the pneu's economics. At that time tire life expectency was rated in weeks. Moreover they had to be inflated with nitrogen to prevent the fire hazard from the heat buildup within the tires. The article made a case for the pneu being cost effective to operate despite this maintenance headache.
I visited the Urban Transport Museum that was located in Malakof in 1967. At that time the Metro was running all original equipment except for the pneu's on the #1 and #13. The #4 was being converted at that time and it was running mixed equipment.
I struck up a conversation with one of museum's curators and the subject of the pneu's operation and future came up. I quoted the Revue Generale article and he said that the article's conclusion regarding the pneu's economic benefits had been debunked. I inquired about the cost of operating the original equipment. He said thay were expensive to operate but not quite as expensive as the pneus.
He further stated that there were to be no further conversions of existing lines and that the renovations would use standard rail technology. The pneu was a good gimmick for export. He cited the then recent Montreal and Mexico City sales. On the subject of noise he stated that the original #13 line installation had become noisy with age.
The current thinking was that it would be restricted to new construction only within the Metro, even the RER then under construction was to use conventional technology.
Clearly many things have changed since then. The Metro was modernized, mostly with conventional equipment. However, some lines - like the #5 have been pneu'ed. Subsequent trips to Paris revealed that the noise levels of the original pneus had increased substantially with age.
Montreal has had two serious fires that were caused by blown tires contacting the third rail. One such fire destroyed 8 cars and a station, but I cannot remember when or where it happened.
Montreal supposedly chose the rubber tired system for the Metro because "Since we are the Paris of the New World, we should have the system they have". Sounds dumb to me, especially as the cars are smaller than normal and the tires on the guideway cause a heat buildup in the tunnels.
>>>>> Montreal supposedly chose the rubber tired system for the Metro because "Since we are the Paris of the New World, we should have the system they have". <<<<<
This seems quite likely given the Quebec insistence upon separation from English speaking Canada and their identity with all things French which was particularly strong in the ‘60s.
BTW The reason the majority of the pneumatics are in France may have something to do with the fact the Michelin company (is it state owned?)is the prime advocate of the systems.
I think you will find that line 6 was the last to be converted. Most of it is elevated. Rubber tyres would make a big difference in New York. No more clack clack. With short stops the acceleration and braking has to be seen ( ridden on ) to be believed. The downside is the extra heat the is produced and with no AC things get a bit wrm in the Summer. The rubber tyred Metros do provide diversity for the Subway fan.
Simon
Maybe they should have tried welded rail instead.
[I did not believe that a rubber pneumatic tire and concrete rail subway could be successful, but after more than 30 years Montreal still is using them and Paris, Lyon, and Marseilles all have them. ]
Isn't this some variation of a monorail?
Arti
From a recent Paris visit it would appear that the rubber tyres run on a serated steel track aboout 200mm wide. Also visible are sections where concrete has been replaced by steel.
Simon
Swindon UK
I got a look at the Paris Metro ATO train on the discovery channel on Friday. That train had a railfan window that must have Salaam salivating. When will we get the videos?
Dave;
I was looking at the Paris Metro pictures you took in April. They are quite impressive. It's been awhile since I was on the Metro. At that time they were using the Sprague-Thompson cars with upholstery in the red 1st Class and wooden seats in the green 2nd Class cars, and the passengers had to manually open the doors at the stations.
I noted from the pictures that the cars seem to be all one color. Does that mean they have given up the two class system?
Also when I was there they had an interesting crowd control system. When a train pulled into a station, a gate at the passenger entrance to the platform would close so no one could enter the platform while the train was in the station. That kept last minute arrivals from running to the train and holding the doors open. Do they still have that?
Tom
> passengers had to manually open the doors at the stations.
Still do-- the doors still have latches (or buttons on the newer ones) to open the doors. They still have a Sprague train that they use for railfan trips on Sundays. Next time I go I'll be sure to get a ticket in advance :-)
> Does that mean they have given up the two class system?
Yes. It's all "2nd" Class now. Not sure exactly when but it was prior to 1995. The RER, TGV, and other suburban train lines still use the class system though. A Metro ticket is good for a 2nd class ride on the RER within the city.
> a gate at the passenger entrance to the platform
> That kept last minute arrivals from running to the train and holding
> the doors open. Do they still have that?
Yes, they still have the doors in some stations (portillions I think they call them) but I didn't see them in use. In fact I was wondering what exactly they were for. However the doors on the metro trains close so fast and hard I'm not sure I'd want to block them anyway! :)
-Dave
I spent much of yesterday's blistering heatwave riding the rails and biking the boardwalk of the Rockaways.
First I bought a 'fun pass' since I was planning on doing a series of different trips during the day.
I biked from Canarsie to B'way Junction (going up Van Sinderen Ave. to view the Bay Ridge Line). I boarded a Far Rock bound A train (R-46) and took it to the last stop (Mott Ave.) Once there I decided to check out the location of the LIRR's Far Rockaway station in regards to the Mott Ave. terminal. I biked roughly four blocks and came to the depot which is on an almost deserted street.
I moved on toward Seagirt Ave., where I found the boardwalk (at approximatley Bay 20th) and biked it all the way down (or up) to B116th Street (Rockaway Park). The sweltering heat made the beaches quite popular for the day as the boardwalk and the adjoining streets were packed with beach-goers. I stopped for a drink at "The Last Stop" a railroad themed eatery that is accessible from both the street and the Rock Park fare control area. I boarded the shuttle which sat and sat and sat (must've been there for 20 minutes). It turned out that the previous train crew thought that an unconsious passengers was on the train. They couldn't find him (they looked in all the cars), so they even went to check their crew's quarters for the supposed injured passenger. The new crew was assisting them, which lead to the delay. Finally we got going. After changing at Broad Channel, I rode on an R-44 till Nostrand Ave. where I exited and rode the two blocks up to Franklin Ave.
I re-entered fare control at the Franklin Avenue shuttle terminal and took it to Prospect Park where I caught a D train to Atlantic Avenue. I switched to the N (a hippo) and rode till 36th Street.
I exited and biked much of the Bush Terminal area. (Surprisingly, the South Brooklyn Railway yard gate was open!) The SBK yard is unpaved and pretty full of pitted areas, so I decided not to go inside.
I biked over to the NYCH yards, but there was nothing interesting on the tracks on their property.
I re-entered the subway at 36th street and rode to Pacific St. where I changed to the IRT #3 train. I took it to Utica Ave. and then I rode my bike down -- and through -- Lincoln Terrace Park. I biked past the intersection of Utica/Remsen and Empire Blvd. Then I came upon an interesting sight: the Board of Education's District 17 office had a well preserved old ad on the side of the building, which I photographed. It was a Jahn's Ice Cream Parlor add of early 20th Century vintage. I stumbled upon this totally by accident. What a find! If any "Forgotten New Yorkers" are interested, this ad is on a four story brick building at about the intersections of Lefferts Ave. and Empire Blvd. just behind the White Castle's restaurant.
It that point -- I was starting to lose the sun -- so it was time to head home to Canarsie. merely turned 'round and rode Remsen Ave. all the way down.
Except for the annoyingly humid day, I enjoyed my combo bike-rail adventure. (I'll wait for a cooler day and prehaps can invite other SubTalkers who might like to do a similar trip.)
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds like the kind of mileage I used to do in my youth.My Sunday outings were about 60 miles. Wish I could do it now, I still ride a bike but 5 miles is about my limit. In those days (late 50's etc ) bikes weren't allowed in the subway [on the cars and stations either, not the tracks..ho ho].
Sounds like my sort of day. I enjoyed reading your report. My two passions in life - cycling and subways.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hi,
I am looking for recommendations for a VHS video that shows a cab
view from the F train from Smith/9th to at least the Ditmas Ave. station. Thanks,
Dave
.......thanks to ""the transverse cabs"" ......the F train cannot be shot on vidieo anymore .......however if you can put me
inside the transverse cab I would be glad to shoot it this october ........
Look on my videos page. The following videos contain a cab ride on the IND South Brooklyn Line into the BMT Culver Line:
- Nostalgia Train of D-Types to Coney Island via Fulton Street & Culver Express, April 1997
- D-Type "Triplex" Feature: To Rockaway Park, Coney Island & Canarsie
I should also point out that the first video uses the IND express track from Smith/9th to Church Ave, and the second uses the IND express track from Jay Street to Church Ave.
If you're close to NY, you can take the ride for yourself June 18th, July 9th and July 23rd as part of the Nostalgia Train.
--Mark
Yesterday's Transit Transit on Ch. 25 showed a brief clip of a PCC
trolley navigating the circle at Prospect Park West and 15th street
in Brooklyn. Are clips of this type available on VHS? How late
did trolleys run in this part of Brooklyn, particularly at this location? Are maps of the Brooklyn trolley system easy to find
(if they are available)? Thanks,
Dave
New York's Last Trolleys from Sunday River Productions has 45 mnutes of mostly color footage of the end of the trolley era in Brooklyn. The tape is still available; don't know if the Transit Museum stocks it, but I've seen it at the shows. I have a copy, it's excellent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know the airing schedule and TV channel for Transit Transit this month?
It is on the MTA Web Site http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/index.html
Go to the bottom left, transit transit has its' own button.
Picture of Bob Diamond's PCC there too... I'll paste the schedule but I'm not editing the paste >G<.
WNYE
Ch. 25
3:30pm every Saturday
Queens Public Television
Time Warner Ch. 56
10:00pm every Thursday
Ch. 35
3:00pm every Sunday
Manhattan Neighborhood Network
Network Paragon
Ch. 67
10:00pm every 3rd Sunday
Staten Island Community Television
Ch. 57
8:30pm every other Monday
Brooklyn (BCAT)
Cablevision Ch. 67
6:00pm every Thursday
Time Warner Ch. 34
6:00pm every Thursday
Cablevision Ch. 67
10:00am every Friday (repeat)
Time Warner Ch. 34
10:00am every Friday (repeat)
Bronxnet
Cablevision Ch. 67
5:30am every Saturday
11:00am & 2:30pm every
Monday
11:00am & 2:30pm every
Wednesday
11:00am every Friday
Brookhaven (TCI)
Ch.70
11:30 pm every Saturday
(PATC)Great Neck/N.Shore
Cablevision 49
3:30pm every Monday
7:30pm every Thursday
8:00pm every Sunday
Cablevision Woodbury
Ch. 71
8:00pm every Wednesday
Cablevision of Westchester
Ch. 58
10:00pm every Thursday
Ch. 37
10:00pm every Thursday
Another video with footage of Brooklyn PCCs is "PCC Cars" by Online Video. This tape also covers other PCC properties. Find it at tmny.safeshopper.com.
I justlooked at the TA website. There is a bunch of disruptionsupcoming for the J and M line. Anybody know the reason for the Manhattan bound J train making express stops between Myrtle and Marcy all times from Jun 17 to Jul 16?????
BM34x
Switch replacement at Bway Myrle interlocking. There will be more changes to come on top of the one you mentioned to be announced by the TA.
I justlooked at the TA website. There is a bunch of disruptions upcoming for the J and M line. Anybody know the reason for the Manhattan bound J train making express stops between Myrtle and Marcy all times from Jun 17 to Jul 16?????
BM34x
Sounds like switch work at Myrtle Junction. It also states that M Trains are running to Broad Street at all times except for rush hours when it goes to Bay Pkwy.
The M train loses it's turnback track at Myrtle, and has to make those stops skipped by the J to Manhatan, so running to Broad St is the most logical thing to do. Service is supplemented this way not to inconveneince anyone.
-Stef
Broad and not Chambers, eh? So why couldn't they do this with the "J" train on the weekends. Someone s/b wearing a dunce cap!
wayne
I was thinking the same thing. Weekends, Chambers St can certainly handle the capacity of both lines terminating at the southbound platform. What about the mid-day periods during the week when the M terminated at Chambers St normally?
I was thinking of having the "J" terminate at Broad Street at all times, as it formerly did. Someone said this was because they didn't have enough funds to staff a tower somewhere, if so, that's b******t.
wayne
Well, weekend service south of Chambers on the Nassau St. line is a waste of manpower. So this service pattern is very strange ...
Turning both "J" and "M" at Chambers might cause delays; there is another tail track/turnaround at Broad.
As for weekend service to Broad itself being a waste - maybe so; not sure how much business is going on in the Financial District on Saturday, less so on Sunday. It might make more sense from a rider's perspective to route something ("M"?) through the Montague Tunnel during daytime hours (8AM-9PM) on weekends, although I don't see them doing this. One of the reasons I don't like the "J" terminating at Chambers on weekends is that it take a useful transfer out of play at Fulton Street. It can be done but requires traveling an extra stop (from the 4,5) or making an additional change (from the A,C,2,and 3).
wayne
At first, the 'J' ended at CANAL Street on weekends, which forced people headed further downtown or Brooklyn to change twice: to the '6' one stop to BB/CH, then to the '4'/'5'. Going uptown meant taking the '6' three stops to Union Square.
At least when they extended it to Chambers, that improved the connections by offering access to Lexington express service.
Yeah, I remember the short-lived Canal terminus. I had forgotten about the service change and had boarded a J at Essex, planning on transferring to the uptown 2/3 at Fulton. Instead I had to transfer to the 6, then to the 4/5, then to the 2/3. I should have just taken the F, but I can't stand that transfer passageway at 14th.
On weekends, the J train uses the southbound platform only, using the scissor crossover north of the station, not the tail track south of Chambers the M uses during midday weekday hours. Even with the M service running here, the southbound platform should be able to handle both trains terminating here on the weekends.
See my other post! They're using the tail tracks again.
wayne
I was unaware of the change. Now the service plan makes more sense.
I beg to differ. The tail track south of Chambers is used to turn J trains on the weekends. Is there any T/O who can verify this? Two occasions that I've seen with normal weekend J service, they use that tail track so the Queens Bound J can pick up passengers on the other side of the station.
-Stef
It seems strange, but I think it really works out for the best. The logistics work out in a way. J trains terminate at Chambers St because of what might be low patronage (don't know for sure; just speculation). Add the M to the picture and you'll tie up the junction, getting equipment into and out of Chambers. On the weekends, equipment from Parsons/Archer ends runs on the center relay track south of Chambers and picks up passengers on the other side of the station. M trains and J trains can't possibly use the relay track at the same timen without congestion occurring. Going to Broad St will keep congestion on the Chambers St relay track to a minimum. Therefore J's will continue to run to Chambers on the weekends, the Ms run to Broad St. A lightly patronized route doesn't need two lines for adequate operation. The weekdays are an entirely different story. Sufficient patronage will give you access to both lines in addition to the fact that M trains stopping at station not served by the J in Brooklyn during the GO will give passengers a one seat ride to lower Manhattan. Why change at Chambers St when you can go all the way through? Two relay tracks at Broad St can accomodate both the J and M, and those trains will be on the move frequently.
-Stef
Weekend J trains do not use the single tail track south of Chambers to terminate on weekends. The northbound platform at Chambers is closed on weekends and all trains cross north of Chambers, using the southbound platform. At least this was the service configuration I witnessed the lasttime I rode here on weekends (last February).
Not so these days, at least my last two Saturday trips to The Big Leak - (April 15 2000 and May 20 2000) - the n/b platform was open and the "J"s were turning on the tail track south of the station.
We will checkitaginfurther THIS Saturday (June 17) and report.
I wonder when they removed that retaining wall at the south end of the s/b platform. Had to be sometime after 1997.
wayne
Pardon my ignorance, but what retaining wall? I didn't get much of a look when we went through last October.
How about Magnificent Ruin for a nickname? Or Ellis Island, as in hospital buildings or contagious disease ward?
We'll get a peek at The Big Leak this year, I promise you. We shall explore the ruins in full, since there's no need to worry about waiting 24 minutes for a "J" - it should be on its normal 12-minute headway. It gets uglier and rattier every time I visit it, there's always some new peeling ceiling, new spritzing water leak, new sprung column or new fallen tile/powdered concrete to explore and photograph. One of these days all that will be left is a pile of rubble with a train crushed beneath it.
At the south end of the southbound platform, there was a wall that separated the tunnel areas from the platform itself. It seems to be gone now. You can look straight into the tunnel. Too bad this doesn't exist on the northbound side, with the sharper "S" curve (the southbound side has a similar but less onerous curve).
wayne
Posters are out. On weekends (starting this weekend thru late July except July 1 & 2), M trains from Metroplitan to Wycoff; J trains from Parsons to Eastern Pkwy and Hewes to Chambers. Local & Express shuttle bus service will link the sections. I have to check further if it is during daylight hours only or continuous from Friday nite till Monday mornings, or simply Sat AM thru Sun. PM.
Thanks Bill!
-Stef
Bill,
Any idea if they're using one or both platforms at Hewes St to turn the J's back?
And the J's from ENY? Turn in the middle at ENY, or go into Chauncey St and come back out?
-Stef
Haven't seen the supplement to determine if 2 J trains will be at Hewes St. at the same time. I tend to doubt it tho. My guess is that they will use 1 pocket at Hewes St. and hold a train at Marcy if needed awaiting the first one to clear Hewes......At Eastern Pkwy, all they have to do is come into the middle from Alabama Ave., change ends and go back to Jamaica.
The General Order will be from 6 AM Saturdays continuously to 10 PM Sundays each weekend (except July 1 & 2) thru Sunday August 20. Time will tell if regular service will operate Juy 1 & 2 or if some other suprise is planned.
Of course it was too good to be completely true. I happen to notice a poster that said the M would be going to Manhattan at all times for a month, then a couple of days later, they put up another one saying that the bulk of the weekends it would be shuttle buses. (and they give the express shuttles to Eastern Pkwy and not to Wyckoff). (Eastern Pkwy has the A service as an alternative).
I hope the Broad St. runs are still in effect the other times, which would include evenings, and the Jul.1,2 weekend, and Jul.4th holiday.
At least then we'd have a one seat ride to the Seaport area.
I read recently that the SIRT used to meet ferries at each end of its run: one or more from St. George and one from Tottenville to New Jersey. Does anyone know when the Tottenville ferry stopped running and exactly where it used to go?
It went to Perth Amboy. There also were once upon a time ferries between Bayonne and Staten Island and Elizabeth and Staten Island.
The ferry used on the Tottenville-Perth Amboy "run" was anold boat named the "Sirius". Onceit stopped running between NY-NJ, it was sold to an operation in North Carolina. In recent years, it supposedly has returned to New York, bought by the company that runs the ferries to Shelter Island (their web page had an article about the purchase -- now if I could only remember the URL).
I found it, but your locations are a little off. The boat was from the Elizabeth-SI route, and it had been in Florida.
Shelter Island South Ferry
Well, hate to say it, but they are mistaken. It was DEFINITELY on the Tottenville-Perth Amboy route in 1959, as I just looked through a family photo album, and you can distinctly read the name of the ferry "Sirius" in a photo of me (about 8 years old at the time) on the thing.
That may explain why I didn't recognize the name from the Elizabeth-SI route.
Does anyone know when the Elizabeth - SI route ceased operation? I don't EVER recall hearing about this before this thread arose a few days ago.
Thanks!
I believe it was in the fifties, but I'll try to find out for sure.
I don't recall any ferry to Elizabeth. Elizabeth is inland from Great Arthur Kill.
Ferries on the Jersey side went to Bayonne, Carteret and Perth Amboy until the early 60s.
IIRC, the Jersey Central named one of its ex-Brooklyn ferries "Elizabeth" but it ran from Jersey City to Barclay St. Maybe that's the source of the confusion.
There is no confusion here. Elizabeth is on Arthur Kill and it is to Elizabeth that both the Goethals Bridge and SIRT Drawbridge go. There was indeed a ferry between Elizabeth and SI. I should be able to get a time frame within a couple of days. And, the CNJ Manhattan terminal was at Liberty Street officially.
He's close enough.
The seat of Union County is named for Elizabeth Carteret.
The ferry that I knew as the Carteret Ferry was (sometime about 1958-1960) a motor launch--almost like a fishing boat with a small cabin for the passengers. It left from the foot of Victory Blvd. in Staten Island.
Is this what we're talking about as the Elizabeth-S.I. Ferry?
No. It's he one that Larry listed as ending in 1961 from Howland Hook to Elizabethport. Elizabethport (not to be confused with Port Elizabeth) is the oldest section of Elizabeth. Carteret is a whole Turnpike exit south past Linden into Middlesex County.
Steve: Here's a list of the various ferry lines that ran to Staten Island:
Perth Amboy Ferry: Tottenville and Perth Amboy NJ 1867-1963
Carteret Ferry: Linoleumville,SI and Carteret,NJ 1916-1929
Howland Hook Ferry: Howland Hook,SI and Elizabetport NJ 1896-1961
Bergen Point Ferry: Port Richmond,SI and Bayonne,NJ 1876-1962
Stapleton Ferry: St George and Whitehall St 1909-1913
New York Bay Ferry: St George and 39 St,Bklyn 1924-1946
69 Street Ferry: St George and 69 St,Bklyn 1912-1964
and of course
Staten Island Ferry St George and Whitehall St 1816-present.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks very much, Larry!
I guess I missed out on most of that "action" as I've only had experience on the Staten Islad Ferries (as we know them today) from mid-1950's, the 69th Street Ferry (rightup to their last day of operation), and the one from Tottenville to Perth Amboy (in 1958).
Test
Steve: Your welcome. I missed riding the Perth Amboy Ferry by a few weeks. I did manage the last eastbound crossing of the CNJ Communipaw Ferry and rode the Newburgh-Beacon Ferry before it quite.
Larry,RedbirdR33
According to a little book that I have, the ferry stopped being a part of the S.I.R. in 1948 but it continued to run until the late 1950's until it could no longer compete with the Outerbridge Crossing.
If it were running today, it would most definately compete. The bridge is closed NJ bound nightly for the next 2 years for a complete deck replacement.
-Hank
Hmm. Maybe someone should talk to NYWaterways?
The Perth Amboy Ferry ran between Tottenville,Staten Island and Perth Amboy, New Jersey. It was operated by the Staten Island Railway from 1867 to 1948 and was known as their "Perth Amboy Sub-Division." Sunrise Ferries operated the ferry from 1948 to 1963.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hi, Larry,
The entire SIRT line from St. George to Tottenville was known as the "Perth Amboy Sub-Division," even after the ferry service discontinued.
I rode that ferry several times--in fact, in the early 60's I road five different Staten Island ferries, to South Ferry, 69th Street, Bayonne, Carteret and Perth Amboy.
The one to Bayonne was an small open deck affair that rocked back and forth amd side to side as it rode, the Carteret (in my time at least) was more like a motor launch--no cars. The Perth Amboy ferry had marvelous old boats--I think at least one may have been a walking-beam steamboat. But it's been almost 40 years, and the memory is no longer fresh.
Paul: I didn't know that the entire line was called the Perth Amboy Sub-Division. What did SIRT call the other lines?
During the late 1940's into the 50's Sunrise Ferries Inc took over operation of the three ferries to NJ,Perth Amboy, Howland Hook and Bergen Point. They used several small (60tns) double ended boats; ALTAIR,DENEB,VEGA,CAPELLA,SPICA,SIRIUS AND ORION as well as two larger boats(113tns) from the 1930's;IRVINGTON and PIERMONT.
There was one additonal boat that carried passengers only was the 10 ton Taurus which although double ended only had a pilot house on one end.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,
Under SIRT operation:
Baltimore & New York Sub-Division -- Cranford Jct. (with the B&O controlled CNJ) to A.K. Bridge
North Shore Sub-Division -- A.K. Bridge to St. George
East Shore Sub-Division -- St. George to Clifton (prob. on to Wentworth Ave.)
Perth Amboy Sub-Division -- Clifton to Tottenville.
All the above notwithstanding, operationally the SIRT really only operated as two subdivisions by 1964, B&NY from Cranford to St. George, P.A. from St. George to Tottenville.
In SIRT days, the road was very much part of the B&O. Any decision bigger than run a few extra moves was made in Ball-TEE-mawr, as the railroad men put it.
Paul: Thanks very much for the SIRT info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Brooklyn Historic Railway Association is providing a tour of
the Atlantic Avenue Tunnel on Sunday, June 25 at 11:00am at Atlantic
and Court Street. Tickets are available from a variety of
shops including the Melting Pot at 492 Atlantic. I saw a flyer in
the laundromat at Atlantic and Bond and ran over to buy my ticket ($15).
Dave
It's an excellent tour - Bob Diamond, who posts here from time to time, will (I assume) be leading the tour. Once you're in the tunnel it's not bad at all, but if you have difficulty in walking or especially climbing, as I do, getting in and out can be quite tricky. I'm glad that I went when I did but I'm very unlikely to do it again for that reason. Those of you who aren't arthritic, though, shoudn't have any trouble.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, I will be leading the tour, as I have for the past several years.
For info, please call 718-852-7418.
Say, has there been any work done recently on the western portal or the immediate area? Just curious.
It seems that some railfans don't know when to keep out of the Sun. While one of us was biking all over Brooklyn in yesterday's heat, I took a nice cool ride to SI on the ferry. As long as I was next door, I decided to take a look at the new ballpark to see if the tracks from St. George had actually been torn up (as reported here not too long ago).
Not exactly. Although one of the two tracks heading from St. George to the ballpark site now dead ends a little bit east of the ballpark, the other continues under the grandstand. Indeed, the space for the ROW under the grandstand seems to be wide enough for two tracks.
Since no tracks come out the other side of the grandstand, I got curious and walked all the way to Jersey Street to see if the tracks would resume. No luck. I did get a look, however, at a bunch of prefab sections of the grandstand, sitting (them, not me) on flatbed trailers.
So much for staying out of the Sun.
BTW: What kind of rolling stock will fit on the ROW under the grandstand? BMT-IND cars? LRVs? Box cars on their way to Bay Ridge?
I would imagine that the engineers who designed this ballpark have made sure that the largest rolling stock around could fit under those stands. There's been a lot of talk about reviving the North Shore line but if there was some sort of height restriction at St. George it would stop everything. To me it LOOKED like anything could fit under there.
Even cargo containers stacked two high?
They couldn't make it over the AK bridge, IIRC. In any case, they likely wouldn't go that way, unless the homeport was redeveloped as a ship terminal. That has already been ruled out. There isn't much in the way of industry on the Tottenville line. There's Lucent Technologies metals recovery plant at the Nassau station, and the SI Advance used to get paper by rail at Grasmere. Nothing else is left.
-Hank
The Advance connection has been pulled up.
When the Staten Island Advance rebuilt their plant they left in the connection and a siding for paper delivery. SIR ripped up the connection though.
There is a PCC-like trolley car in the alley next to the old bath house on 4th avenue between President and Union (on the south side of 4th next stop for the N/R). Does anyone have any information about this vehicle?
Thanks,
Dave
Some time back there was a thread on this subject. I don't remember the details, but the car is one of four owned by the same people who own the bath house. They are ex-SEPTA, if I remember correctly. The thread talked about what they were planning to do with the cars, but I don't remember now what that was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their web site was www.gowanus.com but is seems to be down right now
I talked to a current Motorman working the F line. I heard that the MTA wants to make the Q come to 179 as an express on Queens Boulevard and on Hillside avenue. Also make the E local in Queens. One thing though. What happened to the V idea?
I think you listen to too many people who give you partial information. Your tidbit about R-46s using too much air to stop.
Train operators, dispatchers and even field managers have no hard info as to the final 63rd Street routing.
Don't listen to Train Operators, or anyone else, about 63rd Street service patterns. NYCT has STILL not come up with a final service pattern, so anything going around crew rooms, etc., is hearsay/fantasy/what-have-you. (No offense intended toward train crew members.)
David
There are lots of ideas floating around. These ideas both in crew rooms & SubTalk is purely speculation. Before the line opens up, the crews pick jobs. When the books come out, then we will see on paper what the service pattern will be.
I was channel-surfing a few minutes ago and caught the beginning of the Harrison Ford flick "Six Days, Seven Nights." RIGHT at the beginning we see a B'way street scene and a subway entrance, 23 St. Okay: they've got the proper N and R in yellow circles, but right next to them are a 4 and 5. In WHITE SQUARES! Why, pray tell, does Hollywood insist on screwing up our lovely subway?
Basically because Hollywood figures that nobody will notice it - most people (railfans excepted) know next to nothing about the New York subway. That's why Toronto, Baltimore and LA subways get to play New York.
The streetcars in Barry Levinson's Avalon and Liberty Heights are numbered and signed correctly for the locations. We (BSM) are the technical advisors for all things streetcar - and we make sure it's right!
It's too bad, then, that Levinson couldn't persuade the makers of the "Homicide" TV series to correctly identify the station involved in the classic subway pusher episode.
The interiors were shot at Johns Hopkins; while the exterior was clearly the southeast entrance to Shot Tower-Market Place. The whole thing was called "Inner Harbor Station". Also, anyone who has ever ridden a Baltimore subway would see that the "victim" was actually between cars, with a fake panel above him to make it look legit. (The victim was supposed to be wedged between the car and the platform; the pressure was the only thing that kept his insides from spilling out. I think this was the episode that got Andre Braugher his Emmy.)
There was one movie or show in which Johns Hopkins station was made to look like a WMATA (D.C.) station, at least in the fare control area. IMPOSSIBLE! I never found out which production that was for, however (it was filmed in mid-July 1995).
The MTA was only too willing to let Homicide do the filming in the Johns Hopkins station, but the legal department felt that using the actual name might result in too much negative publicity.
The MTA did put up a temporary signboard on the platform, on the relabled end of the station telling the customers what was happening.
The actual filming was done on a Sunday, as (of course) no service operates. "Never on Sunday".
>>>>>>anyone who has ever ridden a Baltimore subway would see that the "victim" was actually between cars<<<<<<
C'mon, cut the moviemakers some slack. They looked and looked but could not find an actor willing to be actually wedged between the platform and the train :-)
>>>>>> There was one movie or show in which Johns Hopkins station was made to look like a WMATA (D.C.) station, at least in the fare control area. IMPOSSIBLE! I never found out which production that was for, however (it was filmed in mid-July 1995). <<<<<<
I don't know about any movies of shows filmed in 1995, but in the movie "No Way Out" with Kevin Costner (filmed in the mid-1980's), there's a chase scene where the bad guys chase Costner around DC's Georgetown neighborhood into the Metro subway and the platform scene was filmed on the Baltimore subway.
- Jim
Best one yet - the golden dollar ads have Toronto subway cars.
Look closer, I thought it was filmed in Baltimore, as we don't run on Sunday, so there's plenty of time for retakes.
It's more of a story when they get something right.
Well, one former TV writer got it right, many years ago. Remember Allan Sherman, twisted tunesmith of "Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah" fame? Sherman specialized in song parodies that poked gentle fun of Jewish-American culture.
One of Sherman's masterpieces was "J.C. Cohen," sung to the tune of - you guessed it - "Casey Jones." (NOT the Grateful Dead song, but the old childrens' tune.) John Charles Cohen is a conductor on the IRT 7th Ave. line during the World's Fair. A half-million people were all determined to get into the same car, and Jones, the IRT's "finest man" did his job so efficiently that the engineer (motorman) was squeezed out! Somehow, the train moved on its own (apparently Sherman didn't know about the "deadman" feature - but Wm. Friedkin blew it in "French Connection" too), and Sherman gets the sequence of certain stations correct all the way thru the Bronx...and beyond. Seems that nobody knew where the subway tunnel ended. (Another mistake, given that the IRT is elevated in the Bronx, but we're havin' fun!) "The train went under Albany at ninety [MPH] flat..." Daa-amn! Must have been the IRT equivalent of the R-10. Casey says "This used to be a local, but it's now an express." So there was a switch somewhere in the Upper West Side, as this train went "under Bronx Zoo". The train sped thru the north (via Cape Cod, as evidenced by "lobsters on the roadbed"), ending up at the North Pole where Cohen and all his passengers were frozen stiff. J.C. was taken home to his wife in a Good Humor truck.
"J.C. Cohen" is on the album "For Swingin' Livers Only!". Warner Bros. 1569, 1965 or 1966.
I just checked. I have the album, and I'll have to play it.
Okay...I'm going out on a limb and posting the complete lyrics to "J.C. Cohen." Mr. Pirmann, if this creates a problem you should delete this.
J.C. COHEN
By Allan Sherman and Lou Busch
(Based on the traditional tune "Casey Jones)
Listen all you children to my sad refrain
About a subway conductor on a runaway train
Pushing people into cars, he won his fame
(YEAH?)
And John Charles Cohen was the great man's name.
J.C. Cohen! What a great conductor!
I-R-T! That's a subway line!
And if you gotta travel uptown
He's a greater conductor than Leonard Bernstein.
'Twas on a Sunday in the summer, and from everywhere
People planned to take the subway to the World's Fair
A half-a-million people tried to push and jar
All of them determined to get in one car!
But the IRT depended on their finest man
J.C. Cohen could pack a subway like a sardine can
He pushed the people up and back and roundabout
He squeezed so many in, he squeezed the engineer out!
J.C. Cohen! What a great conductor!
How he'd moan, "Step to the rear!"
J.C. Cohen! He really had a problem
On a subway train without an engineer.
J.C tried to get into the engineer's space
But when he looked inside the cab he saw a strange man's face
A half-pint drunk with a full pint bottle
He emptied out the bottle and he yelled, "Full throttle!"
They passed Columbus Circle doing eighty-two
Couple-a minutes later, they were under Bronx Zoo
J.C. shuddered and he said "I guess...
"This used to be a local, but it's now an express!"
J.C. Cohen! What a great conductor!
Kept his head, when everyone was tense
He said when we passed the city limits
"Everybody pays another 15 cents!"
J.C. said, "We're heading north my friends
But not a man alive knows where the subway ends."
The train went under Albany at ninety flat
And Governor Rockefeller hollered "What was that?!"
A lady cried to J.C. Cohen with indignation:
"If this is Albany, then you have passed my station.
So either you should take me back to 59th Street
Or ask one of these gentlemen to give me his seat."
J.C. Cohen! What a great conductor!
J.C. Cohen noticed something odd
When he saw lobsters on the roadbed
He said, "I got a feeling we're beneath Cape Cod!"
Well the train kept speeding through the north, my friends
Finally came to where the tunnel ends
When they came up to the surface from the long, long hole
They were 27 inches from the great North Pole.
J.C. hollered, "Ev'rybody out!
This is the end of the line, beyond the shadow of a doubt."
They went out to get some fresh air, but before they took a whiff
Cohen and all the passengers were frozen stiff!
J.C. Cohen! What a great conductor!
J.C. Cohen! He ran outta luck!
J.C. Cohen! He was really frozen
And he had to be brought home in a Good Humor truck.
When they told Mrs. Cohen that she'd lost her man
She said, "Must you interrupt me when I'm playing pan?"
And she said to her partner, Mrs. R.J. Rosen
"Cohen was a lovely husband, but he's no good frozen"
And she went to her little boy and took his hand
And she said, "I'm gonna take you out to Disneyland.
So Melvin, little darlin', don't you weep or wail...
'Cause you got another poppa on the Monorail!!"
let's add the "Astor Place" interior
with an r40 exterior with a "Transfer L"
sign on the platform as seen on FELICITY
1/9
The sign may be wrong but that is still one of the most entertaining movies to come out of Hollywood in many a year!
Been gone for almost a year due to computer loss. Good to be back.
My 6/3/00 request for tickets to Observation Odyssey at
NYCT Subdivision C-M.O.D.Trip
1311 Waters Place, Rm 221
The Bronx, NY 10461
Returned this weekend by P.O. because "NO SUCH ADDRESS"
Anyone else have same experience?
You have the correct address. The Observation car, however, is full.
Thanks Lou......Must have gotten a mail man transfered from Brooklyn
I'll try again.
Are you going on the trip, friend?
-Stef
You'll find me in tne yellow car.
Oh boy. It looks like you wasted no time in getting yourself a seat. You'll find me floating around in a Redbird. While we're there, let's give the R-33 singles a visual inspection shall we? Hey you never know where one might wind up!
-Stef
There's a ConnCo car in the train?
Wow, talk about H2-to-anything coupler adapters!
A ConnCo Car? Say it ain't so! I could see our Parlor Car, 500 at the end of a Redbird Consist.... Wouldn't that be great. She needs to be retrofitted with H2Heads for coupling and have pickup shoes installed. Don't forget to install trip cocks!
On the subject of Trolleys and Rapid Transit, wasn't there a Birney Streetcar in Bklyn converted for use as a work car on the BMT some years ago?
-Stef
With the ruination of the Franklin shuttle, the destruction of the Third Avenue El, and the future plans to disgrace the Canarsie line and Canal Street on the BMT, I have prepared the TA dictionary. I will add more definitions. The New York heat has got me in a bad mood. LEAVE THE BMT ALONE! It is my favorite division.
TA DICTIONARY:
COMMON SENSE /noun/ UNKNOWN WORD
WASTE /noun/ SOMETHING WE DO EVERY DAY
IDIOT /adjective/ DEFINES OUR PLANNERS
SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY /noun/ MYTHOLOGICAL DEITY MENTIONED IN VARIOUS BOOKS AND DOCUMENTS OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
FRANKLIN AVENUE SHUTTLE /noun/ ANCIENT GOD DESTROYED BY MAN
THIRD AVENUE EL /noun/ NOTE: SEE "FRANKLIN AVENUE SHUTTLE"
Another one to add is Fast, Frequent Service/noun/unknown
I would say that was an unknown VERB!! >G<
I'm sure you enjoyed the rotten decrepitude of the Franklin Avenue shuttle, or Canal Street for that matter.
Get real.
A 2 hour program "Why Trains Crash" is running tonight on TLC.
I just saw the end of the second hour; segments on Japan Railway safety; and an investigation into a Conrail accident, where the driver saw signal colors on a signal that did not have those colors installed. NTSB proved that the driver was telling the truth. The last 15 minute segment was devoted to the Union Square wreck, with an interview with robert ray, the motorman serving time in the arthur kill correctional facility. (He says he "blacked out".)
For those of us who are up later than most, or are in the western time zones, the two hour series will start again TONITE at 11:00 PM CENTRAL/9:00 pm PACIFIC Time. Union Square segment will be on approx. 12:45 am CENTRAL/10:45 pm PACIFIC.
["Why Trains Crash" ... on TLC]
The first 10 minutes was so bad that I turned it off. Drivers stop on Metra tracks for a red light, get hit by a train, and blame Metra.
[A 2 hour program "Why Trains Crash" is running tonight on TLC.
I just saw the end of the second hour; segments on Japan Railway safety; and an investigation into a Conrail accident, where the driver saw signal colors on a signal that did not have those colors installed. NTSB proved that the driver was telling the truth. The last 15 minute segment was devoted to the Union Square wreck, with an interview with robert ray, the motorman serving time in the arthur kill correctional facility. (He says he "blacked out".)]
You didn't miss a whole lot in the first hour. There was a long segment on the Fox River Grove Metra-school bus grade crossing crash of a few years back; not a lot of information, mainly talking heads. Then there was a report on a Canadian crash in the middle 1980's, when a CN freight went through a red signal in Alberta and went head-on into a Via Rail passenger train. This segment was somewhat more interesting, illustrating how the human factor is the main element in most railroad crashes, but it went on too long. Finally, there was a report on the ICE wreck in Germany a couple of years ago, once again a talking-heads fest.
I thought the Japan Railways segment was very interesting...my brother-inlaw has been to Japan a couple of times, and he says you LITERALLY can set your watch by the rail system..so the fact that accidents are so rare is a pretty remarkable accomplishment [interesting though, how in the one accident they found that the motorman had had a Walkman...The idea of drivers, conductors,etc pointing at EVERYTHING,even when crossing tracks, makes pretty good sense to me..although don't most American crews call out the signals to each other?
Auction about subway graffiti going on later this week in NYC. I guess that answers last week's debate: *graffiti vs Art*.
I'm sorry to anybody I might have insulted in that debate...
Took Metroliner 118 from Union Station back to NYC last Friday:
14:54 Boarded, train mobbed
15:00 On time departure
Saw my first Acela train set, parked in the yards at Ivy City
Temporary platform at BWI.
Used low-level platform at Baltimore, left 5 minutes late, not
an empty seat on the train!
Nostalgia moment, old Metroliner MUs still on sidings at
Wilmington shops, decked out in Penn Central logos.
Nostalgia moment II, PCC cars in South Philly trolley yards,
still looking clean.
A lot of turnover at 30th St, train still choc-a-bloc, still
five minutes late.
New Market-Frankford M4 passes over tracks in North Philly.
North of Trenton, crusing along at 120MPH, timing via the mile
posts, 29.6 seconds to a mile!!
Dinky waiting at Princeton Junction.
Stop at Metropark, platform mobbed with Yankee fans bound for
subway series. Jersey Transit MU right behind us.
Construction proceeding at Newark Airport monorail extension.
Due out of Newark at 17:43, trying to make 18:02 LIRR to Far
Rockaway. Left Newark at 17:48, probably no chance.
Will Secaucus ever be ready???
Cruised into NYP Track 9 at 18:06, when is the next train to
Far Rock???
The yards where you saw the PCCs were in Southwest Philly. It was the Elmwood Yard at the end of the 36 trolley.
I’m planning to make a railfanning trip or two to the NYC subway system this summer, and I’m working on possible itineraries. My main goal is photography, and I want to avoid lines/stations where photo angles are compromised by those temporary fences between the tracks or other construction.
Can any of you SubTalkers who drive and/or ride the trains on a regular basis advise which areas have these fences or other work ongoing? The line segments I’m considering include:
1/9 – 125 th St. viaduct and the elevated north of Dyckman St.
2/5 – Bronx elevated from Jackson Av to 241 St.
A/H – from Pitkin portal to Lefferts Blvd and the Rockaways.
B/M – West End elevated from 9 Av to Stillwell Av (part of this line had those fences between the tracks when I visited last summer).
D/Q – Brighton Line from Prospect Park to Stillwell Av.
F – Culver Line from Ditmas Av to Stillwell Av.
I appreciate your help. Thanks in advance!
- Jim (RailBus)
Last time I rode the line, the 2/5 from Bronx Park East to 241st St had the fencing installed between the tracks.
I don't know if the West End line fencing has been taken down or not.
All the other locations you describe don't have fencing.
--Mark
> I don't know if the West End line fencing has been taken down or not.
It has not. I was just down there.
The Sea Beach fencing is down, though..
-Dave
Since you are a barrel of information Dave maybe you can tell me if the Sea Beach tracks and stations will look better than they did last summer when I rode my favorite train? With the fencing down, maybe they finally did some constructive work on the line. Those stations of peeling paint, and the garbage strewn tracks between 8th Avenue and New Utrecht needed taken care of. Maybe it will look better this summer.
No, they're still terrible. It's not like a good power wash and paint job is that expensive, either. Of course they could do a half assed job like PATH did at Grove St. and paint right over peeling paint-- so that the new paint begins peeling right away. Would it have hurt them to run single track for a few nights longer and scrape the old crap off?
-Dave
I can see where you are coming from. Those in charge have a jewel and they are treating it like a counterfeit. Is it the leadership or is the city just short of the money needed to improve things. There is a thing called pride and I wonder if those in the lead feel the same way as we do about the New York Subway.
I think it's more than just paint peeling. I heard that the concrete used to build the stations does not hold up well to moisture and is crumbling. It would take more than just a patch job to repair.
--Mark
What are those fences for?
It allows them to do trackwork without as many flagmen protecting the area. Basically keeps the track workers in the right place and the trains apart from them.
-Dave
I am looking for NYC Subway maps from the 1930's through the 1960's as a gift for my dad who used to work for the NYC Transit Authority.
Any ideas on how I can find these?
Thanks in advance!
Brian
Ebay.
I have a set of the 72's
There are two sources to buy old NYC Subway maps.
(1) Ebay
(2) Railroadiana Shows.
Since there is huge competition to buy subway maps at eBay, you will usually purchase them at a pretty high price unless you are lucky that there is no competition. I saw a 1925 NYC subway map bidded to 125 dollars!
At railroadiana shows, you may buy maps at a cheaper price. However, if you live in the Washington Metropolitan area like me, a railroadiana show is usually held twice a year. You may purchase Trains, Railfan Railroad, or Railpace to read whether there is a railroadiana event around your neighborhood.
If you want to get maps quickly, eBay is a good site to try. Be sure to bid smart; i.e., not to hurry to place your bid, and bid at the last moment to win your bid. Then not only can you win a map, but also lower the bidding price.
Chaohwa
"If you want to get maps quickly, eBay is a good site to try. Be sure to bid smart; i.e., not to hurry to place your bid, and bid at the last
moment to win your bid. Then not only can you win a map, but also lower the bidding price."
That is definately the best of advice regarding eBay!
A third source is word-of-mouth.
Found a Web site listing tunnel projects around the world.
http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/
Arti
NOT!!!
I attended a meeting of NYSDOT's LITP2000 project, which is the ISTEA public process for the next 20-years of transportation planning on Long Island.
In short--the discussion began in 1997 with DOT coming in with a well-developed plan for road widenings, HOV lanes, and an express bus system.
Quite a few of us advocated for light rail--including myself as Chairman of the Transit Subcommittee, Lyson Tyson and others of Long Island Progressive Coalition, members of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, and others--six plans were evaluated.
Finally, it came down to a proposal which looked like none of the plans chewed through committees, the one finally proposed would have had an odd circular light rail line running from Meadowbrook Parkway east on Southern State, north on 110, west on parts of 25, LIE and NSP, then south on Meadowbrook back to Southern State.
This straw man was set up and knocked down, so the final recommendation is for...
"a well-developed plan for road widenings, HOV lanes, and an express bus system."
More HOV lanes on Long Island? I can't figure out where. The Expressway is/will be HOV'ed all the way from the Queens line to Exit 64, which is about as far east as HOV lanes would make sense. There certainly doesn't seem to be room for adding the lanes to the parkways without completely rebuilding them. Could it be the Sunrise in Suffolk?
Southern State Parkway, probably also Meadowbrook, maybe others.
These would be "priority for express buses" but also allow HOV-2. You take it from there.
I hope they'll remember to issue reminders to all X-bus passengers to duck down as they go under some of those 8 foot clearances on the left lane of the Southern State.
Or perhaps this is just an evil ploy for pork $$ to rebuild all of the Southern State bridges.
Chuck
Speaking of which, there was a show on PBS yesterday ("National Desk") which was about urban/suburban sprawl. Part of it was about light rail and mass transit in general, and specifically how it applies to the Portland, WA area. The group of people assembled for the show were all adamantly against light rail, using the suburban-to-suburban commuting patterns and subsidy levels of how a suburban-to-downtown light rail system doesn't work. They were saying how that most commuting is now suburban to suburban and therefore everyone needs their cars to get around. And again and again the subsidy issue was mentioned- all of the panelists (so to speak, it wasn't a panel-type show) all feel that nothing with subsidy should be permitted- the free market should dictate development.
Yeah yeah. I thought it particularly ironic that this show that was mostly anti-subsidy should be running on PBS.
-Dave
[Speaking of which, there was a show on PBS yesterday ("National Desk") which was about urban/suburban sprawl. Part of it was about light rail and mass transit in general, and specifically how it applies to the Portland, WA area. The group of people assembled for the show were all adamantly against light rail, using the suburban-to-suburban commuting patterns and subsidy levels of how a suburban-to-downtown light rail system doesn't work. They were saying how that most commuting is now suburban to suburban and therefore everyone needs their cars to get around. And again and again the subsidy issue was mentioned- all of the panelists (so to speak, it wasn't a panel-type show) all feel that nothing with subsidy should be permitted-the free market should dictate development.
Yeah yeah. I thought it particularly ironic that this show that was mostly anti-subsidy should be running on PBS.]
What's really ironic is that Portland was used as the example of useless transit. By all indications, Portland's MA light rail has been a major success. Ridership is well above expectations, and it's actually been influencing suburban housing and employment development patterns.
You're right about PBS and anti-subsidy shows, that's for sure.
[Speaking of which, there was a show on PBS yesterday ("National Desk") which was about urban/suburban sprawl. Part of it was about light rail and mass transit in general, and specifically how it applies to the Portland, WA area. The group of people assembled for the show were all adamantly against light rail, using the suburban-to-suburban commuting patterns and subsidy levels of how a suburban-to-downtown light rail system doesn't work. They were saying how that most commuting is now suburban to suburban and therefore everyone needs their cars to get around. And again and again the subsidy issue was mentioned- all of the panelists (so to speak, it wasn't a panel-type show) all feel that nothing with subsidy should be permitted-the free market should dictate development.
Yeah yeah. I thought it particularly ironic that this show that was mostly anti-subsidy should be running on PBS.]
What's really ironic is that Portland was used as the example of useless transit. By all indications, Portland's MAX light rail has been a major success. Ridership is well above expectations, and it's actually been influencing suburban housing and employment development patterns.
You're right about PBS and anti-subsidy shows, that's for sure.
Along with the Portland light rail was an extensive re-building of the banfield or hwy 80n,it was a 2 lane in places and winding in places,along came light rail and now the banfield is a pleasure to drive,but the light rail is also running along side and packed at rush hours.....imagine all the people in the trains on the highway...it has helped us here in Oregon,and the extension west to Hillsboro is also packed,and the sunset hwy along side the lightrail is also heavy,if those anti light rail idiots waint have them come out here and see how much a light rail system would help.and how would the N.Y.W.& B.have helped if that rail line would still be operating....boy talk about a bunch of screwup's who had that system dismantled,they take the all time boobie prize.
My usual arguement: fine, go ahead and remove all those road subsidies.
BTW, I don't see anything wrong with PBS presenting right of center arguements. (I wish some of the token right wing folks on NPR were a little more interesting though). And I think that the current NPR/PBS subsidy, at least from uncle sam, is tiny to non-existant. One of the few useful things the republicans did in congress - and I'm a big NPR fan!
Ironically, PBS may have one of the more successful business models in a digital age. Limited commercials, low production costs (relative to big budget TV with crashes and chases), and people willing to pay to watch and sponsor. With infinate choices, except for showing movies, I'll bet a lot of TV will be simply putting a camera and a mike on things that happen live anyway -- from discussions, to lectures, to concerts, to sporting events, to plays.
But those pledge drives are HORRIBLE. And there's no incentive to pay them. Why should I give you bastards my hard earned money if you don't stop those horrible, long, pseudo-commercials. At least if members got to get premium PBS with NO COMMERCIALS AT ALL then I'd understand it.
When NBC sells one of their specials on video, they sell it for $19.95. When PBS does it, they do it for $99.95.
PBS would be a lot better if it went commercial, at least the creatively designed commercials would act as a bathroom break and PBS wouldn't be something that HAS to be watched by way of a videocassette.
It is sad to hear that light rail is dead on Long Island. It is also ironic that environmentalists where not present when the committee pushed for more HOV lanes and express bus routes. I guess Long Islanders have no say in the air they breathe and the high cancer rates they have to deal with. Why are these people so pro-car and pro-bus is beyond me. I wonder if they actually live on Long Island. What ever happen to the idea of trolley buses to replace diesel buses and the really slow natural gas buses?.....what about increasing freight services via rail instead of clogging our highways with so many trucks.....if people knew about these meetings, maybe there would be some opposition to their decision.
Why are these people so pro-car and pro-bus is beyond me ...
what about increasing freight services via rail instead of clogging our highways with so many trucks ...
Web alert ... thread threating to start all over again ... read at your own risk ;-)
- pro-car, well most LIRR train are full during rush hours, they've maxed out capacity at Penn so they want to steal a few tracks at Grand Central. Atlantic Ave has some capacity (on RxR but not subways).
However I'm a good reason many other folks still drive ... I come from south side of Nassau County & need to get to College Point, because it's not on one of the main E/W lines & not anywhere in Manhattan, it is'nt very convient (would at least tripple my commute ... when I worked in Harlem it was about the same commute other then summer)
- more freight via rails, this we've talked about before too. NY& Atl is making some converts now that LIRR gave it up, i.e. somebody actually wants the business, BUT getting anything other then standard size box cars here is a great big pain. This includes those trailer truck railers. Some have said a new tunnel is a magic bullet, others have said it wouldn't make any difference. The RxRs aren't going to dig it, neither are the politations, can you say 2nd Ave STUBway ?
Mr t__:^)
You could take LIRR Babylon branch to Jamaica and then catch the Q20A/B from Jamaica to College Point.
Or if LIRT existed you'd hop on the Shore line get off at Roosevelt Field, then get a Flushing line train to main street. From there you could catch the Q20A/B, Q25, or Q65 to get to College Point.
If you don't know what LIRT is check it out in the BAHN files directory, or email me if you want my most recent LIRT version.
By the time I get to Roosevelt Field, I could be at the office already by car, i.e. 1/2 hour on a good day (today was NOT one of them).
Mr t__:^)
Because some people don't realize that there is NO way transit can serve all options, under any circumstances.
If I was to travel to Coney Island, or the airport, or Flushing, I would do so only by car. Even if there was a subway station at Kings Plaza and the Mill Basin Creek was filled and streets went across it.
Unfortunately alot of LI'ers love their cars, typical of the snooty anti-social behavior of many LI'ers.
A rail line needs to be built, especially to serve the Hub area in which the offices and the huge Roosevelt Field shopping mall as well as other shopping centers are. The traffic in the Hub area is severe, as the many people in western, central, and northern areas of Nassau come to shop and work.
I have designed a BAHN file of LIRT (Long Island Rapid Transit) in the BAHN files directory and have an updated version if you email me.
As population concentration grows, and for each new house there are 2 to 3 cars, traffic will get worse fast.
There needs to be better foresight. Obviously, LITP 2000 is nothing more than a big joke. If they really wanted to talk improvement, we'd be planning more subways not road expansions.
[... the discussion began in 1997 with DOT coming in with a well-developed plan for road widenings, HOV lanes, and an express bus system ... Quite a few of us advocated for light rail ...]
Unfortunately any such plan needs political support, and the Nassau County politations are very busy right now figuring out how not to get caught holding the fiscal bomb, so no grand or even not so grand plans are likely to see the light of day.
For the rest of you out there, try driving N/S at rush hour on Route 110, 106/107, Meadowbrook, etc. ... Nassua and western Suffolk are beinning to choke on themselves. LI Bus they're lucky to still be alive after what County Exec. Tom Gulotta tryed to do to them.
Mr t__:^)
(LI Bus they're lucky to still be alive after what County Exec. Tom Gulotta tryed to do to them. )
It will be interesting to see if Nassau handles to crisis by giving the old, the poor, and the disabled a one way LI Bus ticket to NYC, then shutting LI Bus down. I don't see any other way out. Everything is either over-generous employee contracts -- mandated by New York State in arbitration -- or local contributions to Medicaid and Social Services -- also mandated by New York State.
Of all the places to be killed off by New York State's policy of enacting generous spending plans -- then passing off most of the cost to local government -- I never would have expected Nassau to be first. Then again, if the $100 million that doesn't have to be paid back is a precident for more, Long Island may end up the last place in the state with a decent quality of life and an affordable tax rate.
[Of all the places to be killed off by New York State's policy of enacting generous spending plans --then passing off most of the cost to local government -- I never would have expected Nassau to be
first. Then again, if the $100 million that doesn't have to be paid back is a precident for more, Long Island may end up the last place in the state with a decent quality of life and an affordable tax rate.]
"Affordable tax rate?" On Long Island?? Is this the Twilight Zone, or what???
[LI Bus they're lucky to still be alive after what County Exec. Tom Gulotta tryed to do to them.]
Suffolk Transit fortunately hasn't been threatened with a meat ax. The bad news is there's hardly anything to cut, what with infrequent service, no Sunday service at all, and huge gaps in the route system. I'd really rather see big improvements to bus service in Nassau and Suffolk instead of a costly light rail plan.
To most Long Islanders, mass transit=riffraff.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Interesting proposal, Paul.
Unfortunately, Nassau and Suffolk are too immersed in the internal-combustion engine for mobility for there to be room for Light Rail systems.
I'd think that certain places on the southern shore, like the trendy Long Beach or Point Lookout areas would benefit from a Light Rail line. I doubt Light Rail would ever get the go-ahead in the northern and more exclusive residential areas of LI.
Doug aka BMTman
And as someone who lives on the north shore, we need mass transit much more. The traffic here is so bad. Glen Cove road is nothing but bumper to bumper, by early afternoon. You're lucky to get above 40mph on route 107 during the day. And backups at traffic lights are part of the trip on Northern Blvd. And all that congestion on the LIE.
I used to live on the south shore with the wider, more open roads traffic was less, since there were more major arteries out. I've even been at Long Beach in rush hour and it's much better than the north shore. If you've been to the north shore, you know how bad the traffic is. It typically takes 25 or more minutes get to from Glen Cove to the LIE.
Of course road and rail improvements run into plenty of opposition. The lack of commercial development means more people crowd the narrow roads to leave the area, as we build even more upscale housing which will bring more cars. Yet somehow the NIMBY's always succeed in stopping supermarkets and any commercial development, yet could care less about new housing sprawling up.
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
(You're lucky to get above 40mph on route 107 during the day).
You should try driving around Brooklyn...
I don't see mass transit as a viable option for Long Island, unless you are talking about a system that covers 10 percent of it's operating costs. People and destinations are too dispersed. I thought at one time that carpooling might work, but many Long Islanders are too rich to share a vehicle with someone else, and others are too proud. You'd have to raise the cost of driving to get the lower-Middle class out of its cars -- political suicide.
Concentrating all new commercial development in the county in a Hub could help make transit viable, but it is unlikely. Unlike NYC, with its citywide tax base, suburban towns fight to bring commercial development IN, not keep it out. Seaford's schools and parks wouldn't benefit from commercial property taxes in the Hub, so they'll want their own.
Since most people would continue drive, really dense commercial developoment would mean structured parking, a massive expense when you are competing with inexpensive new buildings with paved over farmland parking in Suffolk.
I guess we'll have to hope that the internet will allow people to work at home part of the time, and drive to their office off peak. Then again, off peak on Long Island is getting pretty congested too.
[ ... ] I thought at one time that carpooling might work, but many Long Islanders are too rich to share a vehicle with someone else, and others are too proud.
Have you ever carpooled, Larry? With how many, and under what circumstances?
I've been an active mass transit advocate for 40 years and have also carpooled for many months at a time. Carpooling fails not because of "rich" or "proud" but because for most, it is a poorer option than even marginally adequate mass transit.
When you take mass transit, you are dependent on trains or buses that run every few minutes, or every half-hour or hour. But with carpooling, you are usually absolutely dependent on every other member of your car pool, and the car pool leaves once. If one works overtime, all have to stay. If one wants to stop for a half-hour, either all or none do. You get the idea. I've seen carpool after carpool break up other these issues.
Most people drive singly for the same reason autos have become the nearly universal method of everyday travel (except in a relative handful of cities), because when you drive, you set your own agenda.
(Most people drive singly for the same reason autos have become the nearly universal method of everyday travel (except in a relative handful of cities), because when you drive, you set your own agenda).
By too rich, I mean that the very disadvantages you describe outweigh the savings. By too proud, I mean that people could really use the savings, but are unwilling to see themselves as second rate while suffering the disadvantages. I agree with what the disadvantages are.
Unfortunately, not setting your own agenda is a problem for transit in general, to an extent. It's very hard to compete with point to point travel, on your own schedule, without having to deal with other people.
i just noticed in the tv listings that tonight at
10 pm on channel 13, there is a documentary called
fabulous trolleys-- the history of trolleys in america....
the title does not ring a bell, so maybe it is something new... it will also be repeated on june 15 at 1 am...
Is Channel 13 in New York a network, independent or PBS station? I cannot seem to find a listing for this show out here in the "sticks".
karl... its a pbs station... have you ever heard of this show?
Channel 13 in our area is of all things CBS out of Baltimore. I am not familiar with the show and would like to see it. My neighbor has a full month program guide for our PBS (Channel 33), which I will borrow, and find out when I can see it. If it conflicts with an Orioles game I will be out of luck though.
Karl:
In Albany, NY Channel 13 is a network channel also. I can't locate the program on either of the 2 Albany PBS stations this week either. Maybe "Heypaul" can give a summary.
I have the Transit Gloria Mundi video, "Trolley, The Cars That Built Our Cities" copyright 1991. It seems to me that I've seen this TGM video on Upstate NY PBS a year or two ago. Wonder if it's the same
program
I see no mention of "Fabulous Trolleys..." in the program listings of my local PBS station or at www.pbs.org. "Trolley, The Cars That Built Our Cities" has previously aired on A&E and the History Channel.
That's probably where I recall it from. Thanks.
.......I own the vidieos TROLLEY & TROLLEYS .. ( pbs) .. one shows the illinois railway museum that I must go to ......
the other is a historical plus ends with some light rail footage....At the Orange Empire Museum there is a collection
of vidieos of all types of rail systems etc.... I am going to collect them all .....!!!!!
This program was a very recent production (1999). Nicely put together. Shows many of the stock footage we've seen before, but also shows all new video of cars and their keepers at Seashore/IRM/Orange Empire. Really nice! Spent some time on the major types that are standouts of the genre. I especially liked the speed run of CTA 4000's at IRM.
It was by chance that I saw it on the program listing while the other half had Antiques Roadshow on.
This program was a very recent production (1999). Nicely put together. Shows many of the stock footage we've seen before, but also shows all new video of cars and their keepers at Seashore/IRM/Orange Empire. Really nice! Spent some time on the major types that are standouts of the genre. I especially liked the speed run of CTA 4000's at IRM.
It was by chance that I saw it on the program listing while the other half had Antiques Roadshow on.
here's a somewhat twisted view of what i managed to stay awake and watch of "fabulous trolleys"
the segment on the cta car that jan pointed out really was the best part of the show for me... mostly because the operator of the car was not in uniform and seemed a more natural looking person...he also enjoyed pointing out the sounds of the motors as the car accelerated, and was good on explaining how the car was to be operated... he also spoke very honestly about his feeling of being in control of the car and its operation...
a lot of the rest of the program that i drifted in and out of was not so enjoyable to me... first i must admit to a definite dislike of seeing operators in full uniforms... i am not big in recreating things from the past, with people dressed up and carrying themselves in very stiff ways... i am also not big on equipment being all gussied up and restored to pristine appearances... i realize that a lot of time, effort, and money goes into this, but i don't feel that comfortable with the end results... i also realize that if these cars weren't preserved there would be nothing left of their existence... but they seem like wild animals kept in artificially constructed zoos, which happens to be another scene that i am not fond of...
two last observations... there were few tourists shown, which was a big plus for me... as tourists are equally disturbing to me... and secondly there were a number of trolley preservationists interviewed about whom i will keep my critical remarks to myself, out of fear of alienating a large number of people...
Different stroks for different folks friend HeyPaul ...
For me it was a nice preview of what Seashore looks like, i.e. the mid-July Field Trip. Also had many Seashore members intervied, but non that are SubTalkers.
Paul must have been dozing when they showed the Manhattan El steamer & what I think was IRT coming out of the cut just before 125th.
I too enjoyed the segment on the Chicago El car. I also liked the varity of the equipment shown: Bimey, private car, funeral car, interurbans (incl. "Big Red/Blimps"), El cars, New Orleans, etc.
(then maybe I'm beginning to like trolleys more then I thought ?)
Mr t__:^)
I really liked the show. It is amazing that there is so little discussion of the streetcar industry, given its role in history. The data I looked up on transit passengers carried in the first half of the century was an eye openers. Aside from NY and a few other cities, streetcars WERE mass transit.
Perhaps because their rise and fall was so rapid. Electrification starts in the 1890s, but decline begins after 1920 with the rise of th automobile. Only one or two generations lived the trolley life, compared with centuries of the horse, 120 years of steam railroads (say 1830 to 1950), and now 80 years of the automobile.
""HEYPAUL"" IS THIS THE SAME VIDIEO I DESCRIBED ??
& WITH THE ILLINOIS RAIL MUSEUM CARS ??
yes... it covers the illinois museum, orange, and seashore...
" heypaul"" I got the vidieo .....bought it at the orange empire muesum last month .........
Did any of you out there have the good fortune to ride the #4 train out to Yankee Stadium Friday evening? I'll bet it was a hell of a sight to behold as the Mets crushed the Yankees 12-3. Al Leiter sure has the Yankees' number, and the Mets seem to feast on Roger Clemens. Simply fabulous. I won't mention Saturday but who should be surprised? Bobby Jones? He couldn't pitch his way out of a paper bag. The rainout made the series an even wash. But I say again, I would have loved to be have been there Friday evening. It would have been a great celebration riding the #4 home.
I WAS THERE, BABY!!! And those Yankee fans are such babies. Would you believe they were beating EACH OTHER up for no good reason?
Of course, I saw the guy who got the most abuse. An Alfonzon jersey, and a RED SOX hat! We even sat through the rain delay Sunday, until it was officially called. I've got sunburned knees from Saturday...
All 3 games, and I did take the 4 on Friday night. Jodi and I took the D Saturday and Sunday because we had things to do in the city.
The trip home from the game was on the Bx1 bus, however....
-Hank
Glad to hear you had a great time Hank. Those Yankee fans, what a bunch of crumbs, beating each other up. Too much beer and too much Al Leiter. I keep forgetting you can take the D to the Stadium. I'm sure it was a lot of fun.
I was there the night the drunk fell out of the upper deck, had a good view from the bleachers. Yanks were off that day too, as was Coney who gave up four in the first.
Mr t__:^)
Man,I wish I knew you were there, Hank! I was at the rained out game. I guess the Mets lucked out, since my Yankees had a 1-0 lead, and coney was pitching a no hitter while Hampton gave up 4 hits in three innings. Maybe we'll meet up for the rescheduled game...whenever that is!
As for the Red Sox...they start a 3 game series in the Bronx today, and then the Yanks go to fenway next monday for a 4 game series. If the pitching rotation stays the same, Pedro Martinez will pitch against Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez on both Tuesday 6/12 and Monday 6/19.
Speaking of the Mets, its only another 2 1/2 weeks until June 29th. If a certain relief pitcher is brought back to the majors before then, get out the security and the batteries! -Nick
I was there too! Where were you sitting?
-Hank
Hello,
I thought I'd put together a list of North American cities that have rail transit of some sort but aren't represented here on the "World" portion of www.nycsubway.org. Perhaps this might encourage someone who lives near by to sign up as a volunteer! :-)
Buffalo
Calgary
Cleveland
Dallas
Denver
Detroit
Edmonton
Jacksonville
Miami
New Orleans
Pittsburgh
Portland
Sacramento
San Diego
St Louis
Tuscon
There's rail transit in Tucson?
It has something called the "Old Pueblo Trolley". Some sort of tourist operation but runs on the street. Not strictly a museum so I figured I'd list it.
Right you are, Dave. A fellow Seashore member, who at the time was an Instructor at the MBTA, was hired as a consultant by Old Pueblo Trolley to train their instructors before start-up. As I recall, they run Birney (single-truck) cars.
Their web site is http://www.oldpueblotrolley.org. They had leased a Birney from OERM, but it went back to OERM a few years ago. I think the Japanese car is their primary operating car.
Thanks, Evan. Now that you mention it, I recall that.
There's also an operation in Lowell, MA using GOMACO replica trolleys. (Not rubber tired replicas -- real steel wheel, overhead wire trolleys.) It's within the National Park in Lowell, and run with a mix of paid staff and volunteers.
Tampa, FL is building a trolley system in Ybor City with Gomaco cars. It wasn't open when I was down there last week but I hear they have at least 1 car on the property.
Pictures of Gomaco's Tampa trolleys here.
..........dont forget salt lake city......in ....UTAH......they have an operational light rail system ..!!
Intresting, you have to have a bus driver license (commercial) to operate their cars. Street running I assume because of this.
How about Fort Worth Texas?
Isn't Fort Worth part of DART (Dallas)? Or do they have something separate?
-Dave
Fort Worth had the downtown M&O Subway since the mid 60's. It first served the Leonards Dept Store by providing parking downtown to their store 3/4 of a mile away. The store was later sold to Dillards, finally the land was sold to Tandy for their Tandy Center (Tandy recently had their name change to reflect their core business "Radio Shack". The Leonard brothers started with the ex-DC Transit PCC, converted the rear end with an extra door and controls, and air conditioning. Under Tandy, the cars bodies were scrap and a new boxy body was build to the top of the floor. In addition, Tandy brought surplus MBTA cars and found out the ex-Boston cars were too long.
OK, sign me up to take care of the Metroplex (Dallas-Fort Worth). I lived there back in the 70's and made a few business trips since then.
Seattle should be on the list, as their commuter rail system will be starting up soon.
For info on Seattle's new commuter rail system, the first phase starting in Sept., 2000:
http://www.sounder.org/facts.htm
--------------
For information on proposed Light Rail in the Seattle area,
"Getting on track with Link electric light rail! ":
http://www.soundtransit.org/link.html
In addition Fort Worth, Fort Collins Colo. They have a street running museum with a single truck Birney. I'm not really a wiz on this operation, but someone from Denver can cover it.
There is a very frequent poster from that a way, but do they have any express trains ? That would hook him ;-)
Mr t
........add salt lake city in......UTAH......they have an operational light rail system less than a year old right now.!!!
I'll be in the Miami area next month. I can take care of the Downtown area and points south towards Coconut Grove.
..........miami..is in florida..!!!!........not salt lake city utah......which has a new light rail system less than a year old .....
............once again good old salt lake city downtown..in.............UTAH...........
......anyone ever heard of salt lake city...UTAH ????
where an extensive new rail system is operational ??
Yes, we heard you the first two times! I apologize for not listing it on the original list. But, perhaps, maybe no one's been there so they don't have anything to say about it...
-Dave
Maybe there should be a "dishonorable mention" for Houston :-)
Isn't there a South Berry station along that light rail line?
--Mark
I LIVE IN UTAH AND I DRIVE THE THE LIGHT RAIL TRAIN BUT UTAH STILL DON'T GET NO RESPETED.
Send pictures!!!
...I posted this several times & finally some responses ......do they allow pictures and vidieo shot of the
salt lake city light rail system ?? Also is there a salt lake city utah website ??
What about the underground shuttles between the Capitol and the Senate office buildings in Washington?
They're already represented here. Pictures aren't the best but it's a start.
Cincinnati may be of interest as well, for a number of reasons:
1) The failed attempt to build a subway back in the 1930's. The abandoned tunnel still exisits under Central Parkway.
2) Union Terminal, quite possibly the most beautiful and efficient passenger rail terminal in the country at the time of its completion.
3) The old streetcar system, including the dual-cantenary trolleys and several inclines up the steep hillsides.
Unfortunately Cincinnati's glory days in terms of rail transit are in the past; it's no longer much of a passenger railroad town. Any website section about Cincinnati would mainly be historic in nature. Most of Union Terminal still exisits (the spectacular concourse was demolished some time ago and its tile mosaics moved to the airport) but the main building is now a museum center (although Amtrak still stops there). There are also some visible signs of the abandoned subway tunnel including the portals on the hillside above I-75, but that's about it. Maybe I could take some photos and do some further research the next time I'm in town.
Also, I've been on the people-mover system in Jacksonville, Florida, but that was several years ago and it's been considerably expanded since then. Rather doubtful that I'll be back there anytime soon, since I no longer have any real reason to go to Jacksonville.
-- David
Boston, MA
It's a shame Porkopolis didn't get it's subway.
Sorry, Dave ... I'm too busy working on the (not so) Capsule History of the BRT & BMT ....
--Mark
I will inform the crew at Subtalk On the Progress Of the Phoenix Street Railway.
6/15/00 The City of Scottsdale Az, city Concil transit planning board, is preparing a study to brach out a line North From Arizona State University to Downtown Scottsdale & to Scottsdale Airport For Possible Construction In 201? .
......Again it seems that everyone misses salt lake city in UTAH....except for one motorman there .......
Also do & what & where is thier website ..??
Salaam!
Give it a rest already. You have posted at least six times that Salt Lake City in UTAH !!! (as opposed to all the other Salt Lake Cities) has a light rail system. Most of us understood your message the first time you posted it. Repeating it over and over just wears out our browsers.
Usually cool, damp, dark, subterrainian places can be relied upon to be cool even on the hottest days. I am one of the 4 people in New jersey who does not have air conditioning and during the summer months I frequently retreat to the basement to read etc. because it never gets above 70 down there.
Now I know that in the subways there are many things like subway trains, people and transformers that can add heat to the air. I an wondering if all you regualr subway riders can count on the subway to be a haven of cool air, a parody of the ambient tempature or something akin to hell with lave, brimstone and little devils with pitchforks who try and push you onto the tracks.
With the on going program to rehab stations, a large number of stairways have been removed. Yes there is more platform space, and yes less exits for people and Hot air from A.C. cars. I for one feel the stations are warmer or hotter during the summer months. We shall see as the warmer season progresses.
avid
In addition to the things you mentioned, there are two other key sources of heat in the subway:
Air conditioning output from the cars
Heat from the resistor grids.
Heat from braking?? No?
Most braking is dynamic (and so the resistor grid thing...), with friction braking coming in less than 10mph. But I guess there is some ambient heat from that too.
hot traction motors too
Which makes regenerative braking an even better idea.
I lumped all of that stuff under "the trains".
If you're looking for cool air down in the subway, you had better NOT go to 95th Street on the R line. It is absolutely oppressive. You think you descended into a way station to hell. Absolutely the hottest station I have ever been in. Come to think of it, there aren't many stations that are cool. Maybe you should bring a hand fan along.
New York City is the only place where I've noticed oppressively hot subway stations. Boston's Green Line stations can be a bit stuffy, and Chicago's subway stations are actually refreshingly cool in the summer compared to the outside temperature.
I still remain convinced that the main reason for NYC's hot subways is the huge network of steam pipes diectly above the station ceilings, particularly in the shallow cut-and-cover stations.
One way to test this theory: How hot are the various stations compared to their relative depth? I have a hypothesis that the deep-bore stations are considerably cooler because they have much more earth between them and the steam pipes. (Almost all of Chicago's subways are deep-bore, and to my knowledge Chicago doesn't have a large network of steam pipes. Ask me about the Boston subways again in a couple months.)
-- David
Boston, MA
I think NYC's stations are hot because of the number of trains and people throwing off heat.
The hot stations are in Manhattan, where you have lots of people and lots of trains, and trains moving on both local and express tracks. DeKalb and Jay are also hot, for the same reason. Prospect Park West station in Windsor Terrace is definately NOT hot. It is cooler underground than above.
From an objective standpoint, therefore, the number of stations that would require A/C is limited. From a political standpoint, however, the TA probably thinks it's all or nothing.
Fan ventilation won't help in a four day heatwide. They might allow the cool air to be vented in sooner when the heatwave ends, however.
I don't doubt that the people and the trains make a significant contribution to the heat, but I still don't think they'd put off enough heat alone to make the subways as hot as they are. Chicago's downtown subways get every bit as crowded as Manhattan's during rush hour, and they're still not neary as hot. Also, I don't believe that the outer boroughs have the steam pipe network that Manhattan does, especially in the less dense neighborhoods.
Another possible reason: Most of NYC's subway stations have such low ceilings that the heat simply has nowhere to go. Stations such as Chicago's that have fairly tall arched ceilings probably seem a lot cooler because the heat is able to rise away from the people standing on the platforms. (Chicago's subways are also deeper, with a mezzanine between the platform and street levels. Many NYC subways are only a single level below the street, with fare control at the platform level.)
But the presence of these steam pipes combined with the relative shallow depth of many of the subways would simply have to be a major factor. I can't think of any other reason some of these stations feel like saunas.
I'd be interested in comparing the temperature of two nearby busy platforms of differing depths at the same time of day. Possible specimen: The 42nd Street Shuttle platform at Grand Central compared to the #7 Flushing line platform down below. I'd be willing to bet there's a significant temperature difference, even at the height of rush hour.
-- David
Boston, MA
I've been at 42nd-Grand Central in rush hour on a summer day and both the main 4,5,6 and lower level 7 stations were quite hot.
With all due respect, I am a regular user of the Chicago Randolph Street Metra Station, which is a nominally below-ground (actually it is largely under an elevated street) commuter railroad station. It is absolutely oppressively hot in the Summer, to the point where they sometimes don't let people onto the platform until the train is in the station because they are concerned with the heat's effect on passengers.
Yeah, but Randolph Street Station a fairly major commuter rail terminal as opposed to a single CTA subway stop. Many more people and much larger trains. Also, it's not really below ground in the true sense of the word; it's basically the ground floor of the Prudential Building. It doesn't have the earth to insulate it like the subway stations do, so we're really comparing apples to oranges. Also, I've never known Randolph Street Station to be nearly as hot as some of the NYC subway stations. I remember standing on the IRT platform at Times Square and literally thinking I would pass out at any second. And it wasn't even really that hot outside.
-- David
Boston, MA
That reminds me of an announcement a conductor made on the 3 during the Lenox Rehab at 125/B'way. He said "137st will be the last stop, it's hot as hell down there so if you want the 1 to go further north you should probably wait here, outside."
E/F Lexington ave is pretty deep yet is one of the hottest stations I've ever been in.
Some of the underground stations of the NY subway are very hot because of one or more of these reasons:
- the original IRT line was waterproofed with layers of tar. While that served to waterproof the tunnels very well, it also served as an insulator trapping heat. It doesn't let the heat dissipate. In 1906 or so, the IRT experimented with Artesian wells in Grand Central, which reduced the air temperature by about 10 degrees. But the experiment wasn't repeated elsewhere.
- the number of exhaust grates was probably insufficient for the IRT. Station temperature was considered with the station empty; the heat of trains or people was likely not considered in this equation.
- much of the IRT does not have concrete walls separating the tracks. These walls provide a piston effect as the train comes in and out of stations. This effect creates wind which circulates the air. The IRT has only steel girders separating the tracks, so there is no piston effect.
- the BMT, built following streets and having a great deal of slow sharp curves, doesn't get enough speed to create a piston effect even if the tunnels were constructed with concrete walls. DeKalb Ave is a great example. The average speed a train obtains entering or leaving the station can't be more than 15 mph. There are other staions built on straightaways that are less used, and therefore, have less complaints about the heat.
- rolling stock today generates much more heat than the first generation subway cars ever did. A/C, for one, provides a great deal of that heat.
--Mark
Interesting question: Are the PATH (Hudson Tubes) stations in Manhattan as hot as the NYCT ones?
Everyone thinks hell is supposed to be hot and scorching, but I'll tell you, today was the closest feeling of hell in the subway today. What if hell were freezing cold, and everywhere you went there was an air conditioner? It's 60 degrees out, and all the cars are air conditioned! I was praying for an unairconditioned car this morning, I actually went for the 7 and rode in the R-33 single just because of no A/C. This is right up there with the time I rode the A and the heat was on in all the cars in the middle of July, and the time on the LIRR the A/C was on during a snowstorm in January '98 on the shuttle to Greenport in a then new C-3.
At PATCO's Ferry Ave. Camden there is a little yard-ette which means a 3rd track ending in a station pocket track. However ferry Ave is on the old PRSL grade complete w/ old PRSL bridges. One bridge in the middle of the ferry Ave yard-ette is an origional PRSL RR bridge, but it had space for 4 tracks, three of witch are used by PATCO. What used to be at Ferry Ave in pre-patco days that required 4 tracks?
[What used to be at Ferry Ave in pre-patco days that required 4 tracks?]
Two track main line with an industrial siding on each side.
Bob
Go here: http://crcyc.railfan.net/wall/hoesch-gg1ad.gif
Check out all the transit systems that use the system. Also note that the PC is not listed as a user.
When the New York and Slow Beach Railroad began operation in 1879 it operated from a ferry terminal at 61 St and 1 Av to the Sea Beach Palace Hotel at Coney Island. The ferries (more likely steamboats) connected the trains to Manhattan. Given the present day woes of the Sea Beach Line maybe it should be re-extended back to the ferry landing. Most of the route is surprisingly intact and would involve some switching over to the Bay Ridge Branch to reach the waterfront which is now a little further west than 1 Av. TNT Enterprises currently operates high-speed ferry service bewtween Bay Ridge and Pier 11 on the East River. Some of the TA's diesel locomotives could haul the trains back and forth. This would have the added benefit of speeding up service for the B and R trains on the Fourth Avenue Subway.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: The woes you're talking about are man made and they can be solved by some sane decision making. The Sea Beach has a monopoly on its line and doesn't share it with any other---unlike the West End and Brighton. You could run the Sea Beach both as an express and local from 59th Street to Coney and still be able to provide service. Or, if there is a bottleneck at Stillwell with another train terminating there, you could terminate one of the Sea Beach lines at 86th Street.
The problem from my vantage point is that my line has been relegated to the back burner whereas decades ago it was considered my many to be the signature line of the BMT. And don't think I didn't catch that slow beach wisecrack you made. The Sea Beach is a cut, and therefore does not cut into neighborhoods at all. It should be a jewel instead
of a rhinestone, and I'm doing a slow burn over what has happened to it.
They could always turn the Slow Beach back to a trolley line
When the current Sea Beach 4-track cut was being constructed, trolley cars really DID provide service ont he line.
--Mark
Bring them back
Why? So you can wallow in your false superiority complex?
You can't live with the fact that the Brighton Line is the only thing you have over somebody else.
Hey Pigs do you have any personal friends on this site, who you privately e mail or talk on the phone? No I can see why
All you can do is continue your childish insults. God forbid you're exposed for what you really are.
I hope your psychiatrist gets to read these messages, you need help.
Pigs: Bob is a great guy, and I'm not so bad myself. Try a different tack with us and you'll find this out. This website is to enjoy and fun on, not to engage in petty arguments. Let's put this all to rest.
I think his parents need to teach the nerd some respect. I am hot under the coller right now. Go out get a job, better still join the service and it will make a man out of you and teach you respect for other persons
Ageism again. I refuse to respect a closed minded idiot like you.
This should my last response on this topic unless you choose to continue squabbling. I don't feel that anybody can talk fairly after letting the epithets fly.
Hey swine man, has anyone here called you any name beside swine man and teeny bopper. show respect, for once in your life, and that is all I will say, unless you antangonize me again with your great long life s wisdom and know it all. Amen
Brighton Beach Bob: What gives with that young man? He begrudges us a little fun, thinks we're bitter enemies, and denounces anything we post on the web. I guess he's never heard of freedom of speech, but he seems to be getting more juvenile by the hour. Maybe someone besides us should become his Dutch uncle and set him straight. He is making a few enemies right about now.
He will learn, when he grows up
Hey, Bob. You better stop knocking Pig's age or you'll raise the ire of that fiesty girl BX55 again. Remember when you called him a teeny bopper. But then again, I like fiesty, angry girls!!!
It's innocent (but not very PC) comments like that that get council woman what's-her-name from Bklyn started. Did you hear about her remark that the reason the cops didn't do anything in Central Park was because they wanted to join in and would have if they hadn't been in uniform? What did NYPD do to get such a bad reputation?
He will learn, when he grows up, if some one doesn t murder him first if he is this way out on the street.
A few rants:
1. Pigs is right. He is being belittled because of his age, but, frankly, his posts make more sense than many posts I see on this Board. Lest anyone think I'm a "kid," I'm in my 30s and gainfully employed -- and no, I've never met Pigs.
2. The vast majority of these posts have NOTHING to do with transit! They consist solely of back-and-forth sniping, accomplishing nothing.
3. I have better things to do than read rantings about the Brighton Line vs. the Sea Beach Line (on the infrequent occasions when a post is on-topic), where both sides are taken by people who haven't lived here in 40 years yet consider themselves experts on the way the lines run TODAY...and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
4. I don't have anyone on my killfile, because occasionally even the most outrageous poster says something worth reading, but it's pretty hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when people don't change subject lines.
C'mon, people...take it to e-mail. Please!
David
1. Thanks for being open minded and not a stupid ageist. And thanks for the compliments too!
3. Well obviously you're not! Who started the fight against it?
3. It's been so long, I don't remember...or care :-)
Let's get back to trains!
David
Making up words now??? What the hell is an ageist???
I was about to write a whole paragraph about why it's ok to make up words in the English Language, but why bother posting that?
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=ageism
Next time you decide to flame my (it's always me, never anybody else) grammar/spelling/vocabulary, get your facts straight.
>>>> (it's always me, never anybody else) <<<<<<
Gee Pigs, if it is only you and not anyone else of your generation, then you have to suspect it is not ageism at all. :-)
I was talking about Jeff's grammar flames, not about anything else.
Dave: Let me put some new colors in your paint box. We have some very enthusiastic people on this site who don't happen to live in New York, but who try to get back into town as often as they can. They have one thing in common, their love of the New York subway system. Yes they have their favorites, but most of those on this site have said they like the boistrous bantering that goes on. Pigs seems to begrudge us that. Most of those posts we put out amplifies our reasons for supporting our particular train, and keep in mind that Newkirk, Q, and BMT Doug still live in the New York area. I never knew that being a resident of another state disqualified anyone from being an integral part of this site. And also let me say that I will post whatever I want to on this site-----with one qualifier. I will make every attempt to make certain that it pertains in some way to subways. I do get off on politics sometimes, but I am usually goaded and can't resist. But even some of those posts deals with the subway.
[Yes they have their favorites, but most of those on this site have said they like the boistrous bantering that goes on. Pigs seems to begrudge us that]
Pigs lives in NY. There's also a newsgroup called alt.history.what.if :-)
Arti
I'm not taking issue with the fact that some SubTalkers live out-of-state. It's a great thing that the NYC subway system can generate interest all over the world, and we can all learn from the perspectives of others. What I DO object to are name-calling, various -isms, and a seeming attitude from expatriate New Yorkers that they are experts in the current configuration of the NYC subway system because of things they knew (or thought) to be true 40 years ago, when they lived here.
If we can all stick to subway-related topics, I think the number of posts will go down but the quality of the posts will go up markedly, more than making up for the lost volume. I look forward to reading future posts from SubTalkers, wherever they may live.
David
[What I DO object to are name-calling, various -isms, ]
What about subwayism?
:)
Arti
You've just been listening to the Dave & Arti Show. You're quite a team. BTW, if you read all the posts there are many than only touch on direct subway matters. You could always kill-file if you don't like it, and none of us have ever said we're experts on the system. One of the great features that I've enjoyed on this site is the opportunity to learn more about the subway. I'll be keeping in touch from what comes from the Dave and Arti Show so as to tap into your wealth of knowledge.
To my knowledge, I've only responded to Arti 2 or 3 times (if anyone wants to take the time to go back in the index and count, fine). That hardly constitutes a running dialog such as certain people have been having around here. Moreover, since neither Arti nor I provide an e-mail address (which is our privilege), there is no way for us to e-mail each other, whereas the parties who DO participate in running dialogs are able to take their fights/jabs/jokes/whatever to e-mail but apparently believe that all SubTalkers are interested in their personal conversations.
Let's all give this up, OK? I find myself falling into the trap of becoming the problem I'm trying to get solved.
David
Dave: That's how I fell into the trap. It's easy to do.
What's wrong with a little (~40 character post) joke.
Arti
Dear David: I admit that I no longer live in New York and have not for 20 years. Whenever I do come for a visit (about once a year) I do ride the subways. I still love them and find them extremely interesting. This site has loads of information and well-informed people. But I also enjoy humor and probably would not frequent this site as often if not for the bantering of Bob and Fred. I agree, we don't need politics or other off-topics, and certainly we don't need personal put-downs. But subway humor is not off-topic. Let's laugh a little, too.
Agreed: subway humor is on-topic. When will we see some? :-)
David
A handful of BMT standards were fitted with trolley poles when they ran tests on the Sea Beach.
The first BMT Standards also drew power from the temporary trolley wires when they were being tested on the Sea Beach Line.
One of the Sea Beach Line's major "blunders", if you'll call it that, is the lack of express stops between 59th St and Coney Island. The line was built to give fast express service to Coney Island, which in 1915 was a major attraction. But as Coney Island waned as a tourist attraction, service on the line dropped. Had there been a few intermediate express stops along the line, there may have been express service there today. Instead the express tracks became testing or storage tracks for much of their careers.
--Mark
Mark: You hit the problem right on the head, but you could still run express there with alternate trains, and let one terminate at 86th Street or thereabouts if there is worry about a bottleneck at Stillwell Avenue.
Fred as I told you on the phone last week, not enough people to to warrent it, everyone got off at DeKalb to change to the Brighton when I got on at at Boro Hall, few people got on at stops South of Pacific, train was just about empty at 3.00 on a weekday, just local people getting off, few got on. I was the only person in my car who rode all the way to Coney Island. Maybe now it serves its use as a local. I noted the number of the 1st car of the D at Dekalb Ave, it was at Coney Island when the N pulled in already to leave back to the city. Left with the R at 36th St, on the local track, arrived with the R at 59th St, which made 2 stops, the N none, no construction.
Hey Pal, did you ever stop to think that the reason all those people got off when you got on was because you got on. Think about it, mr local.
Do you seriously think you're winning your feeble argument by using insults? Why can't you embrace the fact that people who ride the Sea Beach live in communities alongside it?
Pigs, for once you are right, as I stated before no thru passengers to CI from North of DeKalb on the train I took
This is between me and Bob. We do it all the time. Come on and lighten up and get a life. There is nothing serious about it. Cool it, Mr. Pigs.
You sure don't come off that way.
If this is how you get your kicks, do it in e-mail, this board doesn't need this garbage "all in good fun."
Anything between you and someone else and nobody else belongs in e-mail. If other people want to participate, they can join your mailing list.
Pigs: If you can read you would know that many are engaged in this.
And I'm not just talking about you.
Hey Piggy Wiggy how come you antagonize everyone. Even last year you were putting down Web TV Users. If you do not like what people say on the Web, pass it by. Or are you afraid of the Truth about yourself.
I was not putting down WebTV USERS, I was putting down the service.
It's not the same. People have their reasons for joining WebTV, that doesn't mean that buying a computer wouldn't be the better solution.
Pigs: You must allow others to think for themselves and not try to impose your will on them. Take Bob and me, for instance. We disagree about subway lines, baseball teams and politics, but he's my best buddy on this web. You have to learn that you can agree to disagree and still get along. Remember Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan? They agreed on nothing in politics but were fast friends and golf buddies. Remember that.
No, actually I don't. I was no more than 6 during the Reagan administration, I didn't know what Congress was.
I didn't know Tip O'Neill until I saw him on a "Cheers" rerun.
But I do see your point though.
I don't think that my entry into this was well thought out. I want to end it now. I pull back my right claw and extend my left one (look at the Great Seal of the United States to see what I'm talking about).
Pigs, I accept, remember what I said, God gave you two eyes to see with, 2 ears to listen with, but only one mouth to speak with. OK???
Yes I do, that was your religious comment.
Pigs: I accept, too. Let'end this feud. It's getting us nowhere. Just let us wax poetic on our trains and you will see enough variety to make everyone have a good time. This is my favorite website. I spend more time on this than all other programs on my computer put together. So let's all of us enjoy what we have here. Remember, if anyone should be miffed it is me. I've got to take on you, Q, Bob, Newkirk, and Doug, so I'm usually fighting a rear guard action. But I love it.
I've got to take on you, Q, Bob, Newkirk, and Doug, so I'm usually fighting a rear guard action.
And don't forget me, Fred, when you start your swipes at my proud heritage! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You got it Anon. But it is the only time I can ever be identified as a Yankee. And don't forget, my wife is a direct blood relative of your Robert E. Lee. So I can't be real serious when I take swipes at you. It's all in fun. Look at the shots taken at me. I even had a fellow Piasan get on my case. It's been a tough week.
You got it Anon. But it is the only time I can ever be identified as a Yankee. And don't forget, my wife is a direct blood relative of your Robert E. Lee
Fred: You can't be that old. Remember though just like the Dodgers.Lee was beaten by the Yankees.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: I was trying to make peace with Anon on what is a very delicate subject for him. Lincoln is my hero, and William Tecuseh Sherman is my favorite general in American History. On that subject, I am a Yankee. My wife cringes when I bring up the subject.
Fred: One of the reasons you like the Sea Beach is that it is never crowded and you can always get a seat (unless you're coming from/going to Astoria during the rush). The Brighton trains are usually packed, at best crowded. So there are about 10 times as many of us as there are of you. By the way, check out the BMT-lines website. Look at the number of fares collected on the Brighton vs. the Sea Beach 70 years ago. This disproportinate ridership has been going on at least since 1927.
Yeah, and he probably appreciates the boring scenery along the right-of-way!
Doug aka BMTman
Same thing happened to me in Manhattan last month, Fred. I got on the southbound N at Times Square in the morning. It was packed to the gills with Astoria people. Though the train was Brooklyn-bound, all of the passengers got off (mostly at the local stops) by Whitehall Street, where I got off. The train was a nice R68A, air-conditioned and quiet. I most enjoyed the 5 mph part between Cortlandt St. and City Hall. When I got on, Brooklyn-bound, at Whitehall at 3:15 P.M., there were a few people on the train. Almost all got off together with me at Dekalb, to change for the D. While it was dwelling at Dekalb, your Slow Beach got passed by a West End, too. Well, look at the good side: If it wasn't for the R, the N would be the holy slow train.
If it wasn't for your handle I could give you the benefit of the doubt, but you say the West End passed a Sea Beach in the tunnel you have to be hallucinating. I have never, never, ever seen such a spectacle. Now is it possible that the D train does go somewhere where there are a lot of jobs---a place that the Sea Beach doesn't go? That could be a reason for the mass exodus. Tell you what I'll do. I will try that this summer when I go to New York. I will do it a little differently. I will take the D to DeKalb and transfer over to the N and announce that Sea Beach Fred has arrived. And no more of that slo beach stuff. That burns me.
The D runs faster through Midtown along with bypassing downtown (so it's faster).
On the other end, the Brighton is fed by numerous former two-fare zones, the Sea Beach is not.
On the other end, the Brighton is fed by numerous former two-fare zones, the Sea Beach is not
Good observation. Users of the B-82 bus towards Canal Ave (Cropsey Ave) usually alight at the Brighton Line or Culver Line stops. Users of the same bus heading from Canal Ave usually alight at 86th St to catch the West End Line.
The same is generallu true of the B-3 bus along Avenue U and the B-6 along Ave J / Bay Pkwy.
The fact that the N runs local through all of Brooklyn makes for one very slow and tedious ride, and most passengers use faster alternates.
--Mark
The N runs express between 59th St and Pacific in Brooklyn. But it runs local through all of Manhattan and once it goes north of DeKalb that's when it gets really slow.
The N runs express between 59th St and Pacific in Brooklyn
I haven't ridden it myself in about a year, but last year, it ran local throughout all of Brooklyn.
Has this changed recently?
--Mark
It does this weekends and evenings and at night. Rush Hours and midday it runs express. Before 1994, it went local at all times.
It did when I was there last month even though it was on the Express Track, as I stated the R left 36th the same time, and arrived at 59th 10 seconds later, and there was no construction or B train ahead of the N
Fred, you must be away from the big city for a very long time. Remember at DeKalb there are 6 tracks, 4 that stop at the station and 2 bypass tracks. Once upon a time, the Sea Beach even used those bypass tracks. Today they are the sole property of the B West End. While the N was sitting on the local tracks at DeKalb, it got bypassed by the B. Probably not at all unusual, either. Hey, I really do like those R68As on the Sea Beach. However, if you will be using the Sea Beach to go to the store to buy that shirt for Bob, then you better allow yourself a little extra time.
Q Brightliner: What train would you suggest for that? I don't have to ride the Sea Beach all the time. BTW, there are three places I can get the shirt. But you did remind me of something. I'm going to call the Transit Museum and order the shirt ahead of time so as not to be disappointed. Buddy Bob came through for me, I must do the same.
Fred: If you're going to get the shirt at the Transit Museum then you need to take either the diminutive A Division or take the N (slow) or R (slowest) to Court St.-Borough Hall. You'd be best taking the Q to DeKalb and then switch to the N or R.
Fred, you must be away from the big city for a very long time.
Luna Park had just openned.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And Steeplechase was only a quarter
Call the Sarge to Bail you out of Brooklyn North PD
Luna Park, Steeplechase, bailed out of Brooklyn North. Am I missing something here? Since when was I a thug, and I'm not that old.
1-Your age, 2-Screaming I am back Sea Beach Train(busted in Downtown Bkly for Disturbing the peace)
That would be very embarrasing to get busted for disturbing the peace on my train. As luck would have it, I would probably be pinched by a disgruntled Brighton cop who got on the wrong train.
Tell you one thing, I'm from Russia and you know what it means. Leave Brighton Beach alone :-)
Arti
Well Arti, we have something to talk about. Ever been to Volgograd? That's the one city in Russia I have to visit when I retire. It used to be Stalingrad----where the most decisive battle of World War II was fought. Here's a question for you. Is the Moscow subway all underground, or does it elevate like the NYC system?
Never been in Volgograd. Why do you want to go there?
There are no per se elevated sections in Moscow. There's a bridge across Moscow River with now closed station on it. Parts of the system are at grade/cut. Rest is deep bore tunnels but on old cut and cover section. Original plans from the beginning of the century called for elevated system. There are few good web sites about it but unfortunately in russian. If you read it or a willing to struggle with Alta-Vista translation engine try these http://main.icp.rssi.ru/metro/defaultx.asp
http://www.metro.ru
And actually I'm not Russian but I came from the USSR, it was just a joke. I was a sound engineer for a relatively popular band, so I had to travel a lot over there.
Arti
Arti
Call the Sarge to Bail you out of Brooklyn North PD, or Kings County Mental Ward
Rather than being childish you can analyze the differences.
If you leave walking distance of the Sea Beach in one direction, you're withing walking distance of the West End. The other way, the Culver.
If you go west of the Brighton, you're within walking distance of the Culver, but how far away is the next train to the east? Why are the B41, B44 and B46 the most heavily used busses in the borough?
If I were you, I'd rather have a seat than crowd into a train like a sardine. Empty trains rule!
Well if I can make out what you're saying, then you would prefer the Sea Beach to the Brighton, aka, the sardine train. Hey, that;s a good one. If that's the case, welcome back to the fold.
It depends on the situation.
If I was going to the Borough Hall area or Brooklyn Heights, or downtown Manhattan, the Sea Beach is better. It actually goes there. But for Midtown it provides a slower ride. If it went over the MB it would go fast to Midtown again, but wouldn't stop in those other places.
I think it's safe to assume those weren't slant R-40s on the N.
86th ST to 59th St is still too far a dtstance without express stops to make the service viable, though. You'd need stops at (say) Kings Highway and 62nd Street, too.
--Mark
None of that is going to work if there is such low ridership on the Sea Beach. And the chance of increasing ridership on the Sea Beach is about as great as the city investing in the revitalization of Coney Island. And when was the last time City Hall invested in any part of Brooklyn?
If the City puts a minor league ball park in Coney Island, investments int he infrastructure could change quickly.
--Mark
Not that many would go to a minor league park with two majors here. Maybe the major teams are more expensive, but that's what TVs are for.
I'm sure though, that the stadium will be filled up on occassion, but that is not enough to revitalize Coney Island.
If the City puts a minor league ball park in Coney Island, investments in the infrastructure could change quickly.
--Mark
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I think that your idea of Sea Beach service is a great one. Both a Sea Beach local and a sea Beach express. I think they could also have some trains feed into the 6th Ave. IND via the Chrystie Street connection also. This would improve service to and from Coney Island.
BMTJeff
Why do we need to improve service to someplace that's a hole for 9 months out of the year?
Better to improve service for riders along the line.
And running services on both 6th Avenue and the Brighton is useless, how far apart do those lines get? 2 blocks, not more.
Don t you mean Broadway
Right
Fred: It must have been a Freudian slip. Seriously though the Sea Beach has a major handicap it is a four track line with a two track feed into the Fourth Avenue Subway, exp or lcl all trains must fit into that two track slot,also there are no express platforms even though there are exp tracks. The Brighton and West End Lines have a similar problem. Although they have express platforms and exp track(s) they are essentially two track lines which limits there capacity.
BTW I never had the chance to ride the Sea Beach Line all the way to the ferry landing. What was it like in those days?
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I understand Fred rode the Brighton when it was still steam
Not horse drawn? :)
--Mark
Come on guys, I'm not that old----yet. But the Sea Beach was an express when I was a kid. There were times it did bypass some stops in Brooklyn while other trains were local. But hey, keep the jokes coming, and tell Pigs that adults know how to have some fun at other people's expense with no malice intended.
That was along 4th Ave, where Sea Beach trains ran express 24/7. Only the "Sunny Summer Sunday" Franklin-Nassau specials ran nonstop from 59th to Stillwell Ave., and typically they would be BMT standards with a large white dot on the front pantograph gate.
06/15/2000
[the "Sunny Summer Sunday" Franklin-Nassau specials ran nonstop from 59th to Stillwell Ave., and typically they would be BMT standards with a large white dot on the front pantograph gate.]
Wasn't this service nicknamed the "Bullseye"?
Bill "Newkirk"
All Franklin Trains had the Bullseye, even the Shuttle(When they used ABS)
So Fred, in order for a Sea Beach to be an express, it also had to be a Brighton Express AND #7, not number #4.
Q Brightliner: The Sea Beach was #4 until 1964, never was a #7. That honor belonged to the Franklin Shuttle. The Brighton was #1. You confused me with your piece because I know you know your subways. Is there something I don't know about? I've never heard a Sea Beach ever being a #7.
According to Larry, Redbird R-33, the Triplexes made an occasional appearance on the Sea Beach as late as the spring of 1965, when the R-32s began taking over base service. The N marking began to appear even prior to 1964, as the R-27s were providing all weekend Southern Division service once they had arrived in sufficient numbers. And since their roll signs included the old titles, they were marked "N/Broadway-Sea Beach".
Anyway, if the Triplexes were ever used for the Franklin-Nassau specials, they might have carried #7 signs. Incidentally, that service ended the same year you left the city.
Brightliner was talking about when the ran a Sunny Sunday Express, via the Franklin, Then Brighton Exp, Sea Beach to Nassau St Loop. They sometimes ran the R-11 on it and it was narked the 7, so it was a Brighton before it was a Slow Beach
BTW Bob, are you aware that Steve B 8AVEXP was the one who gave me the title Sea Beach Man? He told me the title was mine for the taking, and I took it with a little fine tuning. It will be a year this coming July.
I think it was originally Mr. Sea Beach, as I like to include "Mr." in any dubbing.
At any rate, you get the credit. I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to give the name to myself as I was new on the web.
It works both ways. I doubt if anyone would have raised a fuss had you taken the handle yourself. Your undaunted passion for the Sea Beach spoke for itself.
And got me into battles with the Brighton Beach Boys while I was about it. All in fun, though. I have some vivid and pleasant memories about riding on the Sea Beach. Those memories are priceless.
I agree. My memories of roaring along CPW on all those A trains are just as priceless.
Fred: The Franklin-Nassau trains were considered to be #7 since they originated on the Franklin Line, like the NX they did not make any stops on the Sea Beach Line running non-stop between Coney Island and 59 Street. #4 Sea Beach Express service referred to trains running express on the 4 Avenue and Broadway subways via the Manhattan Bridge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Fred: To tell the truth the Sea Beach ran exp when I was a kid,remember the NX.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For a Very Short Time. Fred remembers when they had Gate Cars to Astoria from Queensboro Plaza, and convertible trolley cars. Horse cars, I don t think so
It's bad enough I'm going on 60; do you have to make me 95? Come on guys, enough with the age. I'm young at heart.
Look at the bright side. At least no one has said anything about horse cars.:-)
some one did, but even I rebuffed that, the last was was in 1915 on Grand St Manhatten
I've heard they lasted until 1917. The gentleman who put us up in his house in Paterson for two months in 1967 told us once he remembered seeing horse cars in Manhattan in 1916.
Oops, I spoke too soon.
The NX lasted less than a year. And tell Fred that the only reason that it was invented was to take pressure off the Brighton line. So its south terminal was Brighton Beach.
It was created because the Brightonites (of the neighborhood, not the line) complained of the loss of direct express service via Broadway. Like B'way is that far away from 6th Avenue anyway.
And where does the Brighton share its trackage with anyone. The Brighton always had Exp and Local Service, going back to the 20s. they may keep changing the letter but it always was a Brighton Localm and Brighton Exp.
And may I remind you Bob, old buddy, is that the Brighton D is a LOCAL. The Q is the express. The Q. Quite a letter for a train, don't you think. Like weird. But, then again, your train is a weird one. And a local.
hey fred... several of us brighton line devotees are putting together a proposal to solve the problem of garbage disposal once they close the fresh kills landfill in staten island... fresh kills is the last landfill in the city...
we are proposing that the city use the sea beach right of way as a land fill... we would cover over the line with some planks, and then have sanitation trucks dump their loads into the cut, thus bringing the line up to street level... i have asked one of subtalk's resident engineers to get out his slide rule and estimate how many years worth of garbage we could dispose of in this manner... at the end of the project, the sea beach line will be entirely underground, just like its sister line the 4th ave local...
Right On Paul, Us Brighton Beach/JMHS People should stick together. Fred s train should be the A, after all he lives in Arcadia and grew up in Astoria.
Red Hook and Long Island City, you Brighton Local ignoramous. And what I wrote to hey paul, or is it heypaul, goes for you, too. Paul must be suffereing from an ego problem. Like most Brighton people, he has to use small case to write his name. Sort of reminds me of e.e. cummings, the poet. You've heard of him, right? Oh, you haven't? That;s right, you're a Brighton man. Anyway, he has an image problemn like you guys do. You need two lines to make your train viable. We Sea Beachers don't. Tell heypaul he's lost my vote. He must be a bore Gore Democrat like you.
Anybody but Georgie Junior, did you know that School Teachers in Texas have not gotten a raise since Bush has been Gov.
The group The Tokens (and myself, too) are also from Brighton Beach ....
--Mark
So is Neil Sedaka, and now the Russian Mob
Neil Sedaka is from Brighton Beach. The Russian Mob just moved there.
(The King's County DA wishes they would go back to the USSR.)
Robert DeNiro actor/friend, Harvey Keitel is also from Brighton Beach.
Dan: There is no USSR to back to. President Reagan took care of that.
Oh, great, now you're dragging my favorite route into this.:-)
Hey Paul: Got a question for you. Does that include human garbage, too? If so, it wouldn't take more than a week to fill up the line what with all the bs coming from you and those other Brighton LOCAL fools. Since you need a land fill, I think your line, the Q (what a name for a line) and the D could fill the bill adequately. Just use the portion between Prospect and Avenue M (?) and turn the rest of the line into a s----- shuttle. Besides if there has to be a cut subway, let it at least be a real cut, not some half ass phony. Part cut and part elevated. They just couldn't seem to make up their mind when they built the damn line. We have an elevated in Brooklyn, a real one, the West End, and we have my Sea Beach as a cut. Yours is a mongrel of both. There we will put the land fill on your half-ass
route. Problem solved.
Fred, the answer to your post is not worth the effort, if the TA thought the Sea Beach was worth rebuilding, I am sure they would have done it decades ago.
Let's not bring the West End into this. as it is I am still fuming with the BS OPTO operation going on midnights and the awful R68A assigned. Why cant concourse keep these cars to themselves and gimme back nice dependable -burn-your-ass heaters in the winters R40s? And not the R40Ms, the original, #1 SLANT R40s...:)
Come on my Dago Paisan, everybody get sucked into this vortex. Let's face it, no one has anything against the West End. We all agree it is a good line, but we all have gripes about our particular favorite trains. If we didn't have something to gripe about, half the fun would be missing.
I am glad that you agree that the old BRT el is a good line, so why use words that are not god to describe myself as a Dago? It's uncalled for.
Right, ItalianGuyInSI.
Fred has little positive to say about anything. He thinks he's the Don Rickles of SubTalk.
lol...I dont mind knocking me for lack of understanding, but don't use distasteful words and ethnic slurs. Shows how people freindly some individuals really are...lol
Italian Guy in SI, Fred is as Italian as they come, so it was not a Ethnic Slur
Well, in my opinion it was. No matter its forgotten.
Thanks! And if you're Sicilian, you're twice ok.
So if youre one go you can call your group anything. Being not a part of it it's called racist. Go figure?
Arti
Good point.
Actually the beginning of the word Dago, comes from the 16-18 century English being used against the Spanish (Diego) shortend to Dago
In 19th and 20th Century America, it's a derogatory expression for an Italian.
In 21st Century America it isn't. As I said before I'm very proud of my Italian heritage and I don't consider Dago to be disrespectful. But to each his own.
Nah, Fred doesn't compare to Don Rickels. He's never called anyone a hockey puck.:-)
Don Rickles is Jewish, and I happen to think he's great. He make me laugh all the time. I wish he was a Dago.
I'm a Dago and proud of it. When I lived in New York back in the late 40's and 50's, they had other names for us that were definately not complimentary. Once I bumped into a man on the GG and he called me a greaseball. I cussed him out. That was a real bad name, but I never thought Dago was bad. I call myself a Dago, but if it bothers you I won;t use it.
It does indeed bother me. You may be proud to be a Dago, but I'm pround to be Italian. I know of the other names, but whats wrong with "Paisan" or "Goomba" or just "Friend"? I like that one best of all.
OK, Paisan Friend and ancestral countyman, that's what it will be from now on. Now we can be colleagues, ok?
>>>> but whats wrong with "Paisan" or "Goomba" or just "Friend" <<<<
It is interesting how a word that Fred used disturbed you, but you find no problem with "Goomba". In the Irish neighborhood where I grew up "Goomba" was definitely pejorative and connoted not just Italian, but Italian hoodlum.
I guess it all comes down to the classic Gary Cooper line in the 1929 movie "The Virginian"
"IF YOU WANT TO CALL ME THAT, SMILE!" :-)
Thanks Old Tom, but one person's cup is another person's poison. I don't mind being referred to as a Dago, but if someone called a greaseball or guinea, I'd hit the roof. Well at least I know what to call my Italian colleague from Staten Island.
Yeah, those slants burned up the express tracks along 4th Ave., that's for sure.
Well lucky Brighton Express riders are the ones to benefit. Although on some weekends, when the Q sleeps, Coney does send out some R40s on the West End while some of the R68As are shopped at Concourse...
PS Anyone know how many of the B's R68As are shopped at Concourse as opposed to Coney?
>>>PS Anyone know how many of the B's R68As are shopped at Concourse as opposed to Coney?<<<
All R-68A's are assigned to CIY. Some are stored at Concourse as needed for "B" service
Peace,
ANDEE
Would anyone know how many "B" Put Ins are done at:
1)Concourse/Bedford Park Blvd
2)21st Street/Queensbridge
3)38th/36th Street Yards, Brooklyn
4)Coney Island
Thank you!
[Hey Paul: Got a question for you. Does that include human garbage, too? If so, it wouldn't take more than a week to fill up the line what with all the bs coming from you and those other Brighton LOCAL fools. Since you need a land fill, I think your line, the Q (what a name for a line) and the D could fill the bill adequately. Just use the portion between Prospect and Avenue M (?) and turn the rest of the line into a s----- shuttle. Besides if there has to be a cut subway, let it at least be a real cut, not some half ass phony. Part cut and part elevated. They just couldn't seem to make up their mind when they built the damn line. We have an elevated in Brooklyn, a real one, the West End, and we have my Sea Beach as a cut. Yours is a mongrel of both. There we will put the land fill on your half-ass
route. Problem solved.]
Lovely post, Fred.
How's your blood pressure these days?
FYI, the West End isn't COMPLETELY an El either. It's subway in most of Brooklyn until after Ninth Ave. Duh!
And the Sea Beach being a cut is BORING as all hell. The Brighton offers different modes of transit along the route and THAT'S WHY IT'S NUMERO UNO on the Southern Division!
Asta La Vista, baby!!!
Doug aka BMTman
Another point for Doug AKA BMT Man
As Democrats and Hillary lovers, how could I expect anything else from you two liberal dorks. The fact is, and this was brought out by others, is that the reason the Brighton has so many riders is that it serves bus lines that feed into it and vise versa, taking them to their places of employment. When the Sea Beach leaves the tunnel after 59th Street, except for a stop or two, it passes through working class neighborhood of well kept apartments and homes until it gets to Coney. The Brighton emerges at Prospect Park Station into a pesthole of a neighborhood that doesn't improve until five or six stops. Chalk one up for the Sea Beach on that one.
[The Brighton emerges at Prospect Park Station into a pesthole of a neighborhood that doesn't improve until five or six stops. Chalk one up for the Sea Beach on that one.]
It's a pesthole of a neighborhood ever since you passed through it. It's only recently recovering from your wrath.
Have you ever gotten off at Prospect Park Station and took a good walk around as I did last summer instead of running off your mouth?
If you did then you would know that whole area for miles is a very seedy one, and was one long before I vented my wrath---as you put it.
For the record, that station was once my favorite because of Ebbets Field and the Brooklyn Dodgers, of whom, by the way, I consider myself an expert. I'm very sorry what's happened to that area, but it's a fact and nothing will change it Douglas.
Sometimes I detect that your posts to me are not all in good spirit. I hope that's not the case because if it is I can change from my good natured Don Rickles personality into a razor. Hopefully, I'm wrong, but I'll keep my antenna up.
BOO-HOO!
:-(
All right Doug, have it your way. I have a suggestion. I won't respond to your pieces and you won;t respond to mine---for a month, until cooler heads prevail. That ok with you?
Hey Paul. How would anyone know the difference from the way it is now?
you have a point sarge... if we made the cut into a legal dumping ground, little would have to be changed... the signs that that currently warn that there is a FINE FOR DUMPING would not have be changed... once it is made into a land fill, then that same sign could be used to let people know that the area is FINE FOR DUMPING...
Love It Hey Paul, FINE FOR DUMPING
06/15/2000
[Love It Hey Paul, FINE FOR DUMPING ]
TRASH TALK !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
heypaul, you should be on the City Planning Commission! That's a helluva 'n idea...
And then we could turn the new street areas above the ROW into parking lots for an NYCT "Park 'n Ride" test project (similar to what suburban lines have).
Genius, man. Pure genius...
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
The D for Dynamic the Q for Quaint, The N for NURD or Nothing or Nebish
Wrong again, Bob. D is for dork, dumb, dis----, disgusting, and a whole host of others. Q is for queery, and I don;t mean gay people. I mean just plain weird. N is for Nebraska, Notre Dame, National,
Noble, and Nicholas, my favorite name----which since you don't know what it means I'll tell you. It means "victory of the people". Those people are Sea Beach people, not the cheap imitations that claim the Q train as their ideal. You know what D means in school, don't you. Oh, I forgot, you're a brighton local man. It means BARELY PASSING!
That's your line(s), barely passing.
06/13/2000
Sea Beach fred,
"D" is the fourth letter of the alphabet. "N" is the fourteenth letter of the alphabet. In the old daze, the Brighton's route was #1. The poor Sea Leach was #4 behind the #3 West End and the #2 4th Ave. slowcal.
Where is Doug BMTman when we need him ?
Bill "Newkirk"
You don't need BMT Doug, that was a good enough rip at my line. But, unlike some others on this site, I take it with a grain of salt and a lot of humor. That was good. Of course, we had #4, you guys had #1. That was because we were four times better than you.
Yea, but Fred, not only was the Brighton exp. #1 it is now Q as in Quick, Quickness being a concept unknown to the Sea Beach for at least the past 10 years. Actually, it's no wonder that Sea Beach alliterates with sluggish, snail-like, and slow.
HA HA, HO-HO, HE HE, GIGGLE GIGGLE
You don't need BMT Doug, that was a good enough rip at my line. But, unlike some others on this site, I take it with a grain of salt and a lot of humor. That was good. Of course, we had #4, you guys had #1. That was because we were four times better than you.
You don't need BMT Doug, that was a good enough rip at my line. But, unlike some others on this site, I take it with a grain of salt and a lot of humor. That was good. Of course, we had #4, you guys had #1. That was because we were four times better than you.
You are getting senile Fred, you posted the same thing 3 times. the 4 was short for FORGOTTEN
I wonder if the BMT number code was drawn up by committee, or by one individual.
You people are squabbling over nothing! I don't care why you do it, but both the Brighton and Sea Beach are viable transit lines. You have your petty reasons for liking one or the other and hating the other, but they mean NOTHING.
The Sea Beach line goes under it's neighborhoods, and doesn't make as much noise.
The Brighton line is the last line for miles and is fed by numerous bus routes and park-and-riders, it has viable express stations and therefore two lines.
The Sea Beach gets screwed by the Manhattan Bridge.
Instead of just stopping, or at least using facts to determine which line has which advantages, you engage in mudslinging (and the bad kind, not the kind that keeps me cool) and post garbage, LITERALLY.
If any kind of message should be taxed, it's this shit.
BTW, N is the same as D: E, S, N, U
Hey Piggy just having fun, chill out
Dear Pigs: Sorry, I don't agree with you. I enjoy very much the bantering of #4 Fred and #1 Bob. It is one of the most enjoyable things about this website. Especially since #1 Bob almost always gets the best of it, as I am staunch Brighton loyalist (and far from being alone, at that). Hey aren't you, too?
"Hey aren't you, too?"
Of course, but the bickering makes both lines look bad considering the poor defenses they're given.
People ride BUSSES to get to the Brighton.
You hit the nail right on the head. The Brighton line is fed by almost all of southeast Brooklyn. Thus its success, early on with the development of Midwood, Sheepshead Bay, Manhattan Beach, and Gerritsen Beach, and later with the development of Flatlands and Mill Basin. The Sea Beach is less than a half-mile from the Culver to the east and from the West End to the west, through much of its route. Thus, the Sea Beach was hemmed in, with no potential for growth. This, together with the decay of Coney Island, led to its sad demise.
Don't cash in the Sea Beach yet. It will rise again. And yes, there is reason for the Brighton getting more passengers. I'm glad that was pointed out. Most of our love for our train came because of our fond memories of childhood. Pigs tries to begrudge us of that, and it is not right. He'll learn.
You can have your fond memories of trains, it's the confrontational crap that you post.
As we stated it is all done in fun. You are the only one who antagonizes anyone over and over again. Think about it, nobody else calls anyone names except you, and you got so insulted last week when I called you a Teeny Bopper, Baby what goes around comes around. THINK, God gave you two eyes, and ears, and only one mouth.
Now you have to bring religion into it.
I was insulted by teeny bopper because the comment was based entirely upon age discrimination.
what religion, when did I bring religion into anything on this, except to wish people the best on Holidays. Have you been spending too much time smoking the pipe again?
Pigs: If you have been reading the pieces as carefully as you claim you would know that Q Brightliner, Bill Newkirk, Doug BMT Man, and my buddy Brighton Beach Bob have all climbed over my body and brought my Sea Beach down in flames. I give back as best I can, but you don;t see me getting nasty with them. Will you please understand--IT IS ALL IS FUN AND GOOD SPIRIT! Why can't you get it?
Yes you do get nasty, you just don't let the epithets fly like I did.
I apologize for my comments, but I will not stand for ageism.
You have to admit these Brighton-Sea Beach debates/arguments are real knee slappers.
Pigs reminds me of the colonel on Monty Python, as played by Graham Chapman. If a sketch got too silly, he'd stop it.
Thank you Brightliner, You are a good BUDDY, and are on my Xmas List
Why should it bother you? We're having fun and enjoying each other's company, albeit from a distance. Chill out or dry up because you are trying to spoil what is the best website around. Dave Pirmann, talk some sense to this guy, will you. Tell him we are all in the same boat. We love this site and the NY subway.
Oh Fred, I must admit, I did enjoy part of the ride on the N, Between 86th St and C>I> The problem was, it was the only time the train went over 15mph on the whole trip
Well, at least it's a start. That's only the second nice thing you've said about the Sea Beach. You owe me at least 30 more.
Fred, none of can think of anything nice to say about the Slow Beach, except when it goes thru the yards south of 86th St, the only interesting part of the line that is interesting, except the part in Queens next to Sunny Side Yards and the Hell Gate Bridge, because we get to see trains from those parts. Oh the view no longer able to see headin leaving Queensboro Plaza to Manhatten of the Skyline. So there is 4 so don t expect any more.
Q for Quick, IMHO.
Q is a most appropriate marking for the slant R-40s.
I guess you'd have to go back to the days of the LIRR Manhattan Beach branch to answer that question.
--Mark
That would definitely be one way to speed up the commute for people who live along the Sea Beach line. But rather than have the TA's diesels haul subway cars along the non-electrified Bay Ridge branch, why not have Light Rail cars provide the service from Coney Island to Bay Ridge using catenary wires along the whole right-of-way? Also a transfer to the R at 59th St should be provided so people who need to get to downtown Brooklyn would still be able to do so.
The most obvious solution is to build several express stations, and run express trains through to 4th ave and Broadway.
The locals would run only between Coney Island and the ferry terminal.
The MTA could be doing more about speeding up rush-hour service by adding skip-stop service to some lines. I vote in favor of skip-stop on the L and the G lines. These are both long local lines. Faster travel times and faster train-turn-around times would result. Also, I would like to see skip-stop service expanded between 96th and 137th St. on the 1/9.
There is not enough service on the G to support skip-stop. Either headways would become unbearably long at stations that are skipped by one of the two services (which would be most of them), or more service than necessary would be provided over the line as a whole in order to have sufficient service at each station.
David
On the 1/9 Run the 9 as a thru Exp in Peak Hours, and keep the 1 as a local between 103 and maybe the Bronx.
Skip-stop service is not really needed on either line. On the G line, it takes roughly 25 minutes to get from Queens Plaza to Smith-9th Streets. Not enough travel time to qualify for skip-stop express service. Besides, that means extra trains to relay at 4th Avenue, which would cause delays on the F line. And with the opening of the 63rd Street extension to the Queens Boulevard Line, the G will end at Court Square. So, what's the point?
Likewise with the L. Travel time on the L is roughly 37 minutes from Rockaway Parkway, Canarsie to 8th Avenue, Manhattan. Having worked the L, I can tell you that there are times that before the motorman has changed ends on a train and charged up the starting lights having gone off (at 8th Avenue) and it's time to leave. Headways can't get any smaller than that!
Which line has the oldest running cars on the system? What year do they date back.
Lines 2, 4, 5, 6 have the oldest cars, They are the exception or only partial service on the 4 and 6. Nearly all of the 2 and 5 service have these oldest, the "Redbirds". These were built between l959 and l963. Class R26,28,29,33..and a few R36 that wasa part of the Flushing order. The very oldest of the bunch seem to be kept on the 5: the R26/28 of l959-60.To stretch it a bit farther the 7-Flushing line has the bulk of the R36 (some are on Pelham too in the picture window form) if I recall these built in l964. Nothing but that type of car there. On the B division the l964-65 built R32 are the oldest but I don't know their present assignment. I"m sure somebody else will offer that info or more.
Nowadays, the R-32s can be seen and ridden on the A, C, E, and possibly the N. Except for an occasional train of R-46s, all E service is currently provided by R-32s.
R-32s are also occasionally on the R, and if a 6-car set of R-46s is not available for G service, a 10-car set of R-32s from the E and R is substituted.
David
Why are there never R-32s on the F . Everything else out of Jamaica has R-32s, why not the Queens Express / 6th Av / Culver LCL?
Why are there never R-32s on the F . Everything else out of Jamaica has R-32s, why not the Queens Express / 6th Av / Culver LCL?
I remember seeing the R32 running as an F quite a long time ago along the Queens Blvd portion, but it is indeed very rare even then. It has ran on the line before.
During my sophomore year of high school (1993-94), I saw R32s operating on the F, G and R lines several times as well as R46s on the E. For a while that was all I saw. I thought the lines were switching equipment. But later on everything went back to usual with R46s on the F, G and R and R32s on the E. But recently I saw R46s back on the E. I think they should stay there.
I Have seen more R46s on the E lately more than R32
I remember this period well. February and March of 1994 saw the entire E line made of R46's.
I remember that as well; I asked a C/R what was going on and was told that the R-46 was having door problems on the F when it was on the Culver El portion of the line due to the extreme weather that winter. Seems the R-32s were able to handle the bitter cold and deep snow better, so they swaped equipment with te E, which is all underground.
subfan
Sounds like the R-16s trading off with BMT standards all over again. Whenever there was snow in the forecast, the R-16s would be sent to the Canarsie line and the unstoppable, unflappable standards would take over on the Eastern Division elevated subway routes.
I suppose they could; they just DON'T. All that would be involved would be to swap some "E" and "F" trainsets.
Back when the R44 was making its debut, they NEVER ran on the "E"; the "E" had pretty much everything else (R-6, R-7, R40 Slant, R40M); the "F" had all that PLUS the R44.
wayne
I thought the R-44 test train (with carpeting) debuted on the "E" ....
--Mark
I (kind of) remember that the carpeted R-44s debuted on the "D" line in the mid-70s. I believe this was also true of the last R-44s, which were the ones equipped with the hydraulic (squishy) brakes.
The carpeted R44 (#328-335) ran on the "D" line and was made up of later-delivered cars. It featured FEROCIOUS static electricity! Walk across it, touch a stanchion and ZAP!!!
There were three bunches of R44: one for the "F" (100-259); one for the "D" (260-335) and one for the "A" (336-399). I believe the first train ran on the "F" and was made up of the 100-series cars.
wayne
The first run of the R-44's in passenger service was on December 16,1971 on the E. Car nos. were 112-117-113-114-108-109-111-110. A week later it was on the F, then the A and D.
The first use of R-44's in regular as oppossed to test service was on the F on April 19,1972.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The "F" is CARTHNICLY pure.
avid
R46s are not uncommon on the E!!!!!!!!
#5, which has R26's dating back to 1959.
If you want to see the oldest looking cars, go for the R-33 single on the Flushing7. 3rd car Queens-Bound, 9th car Manhatan bound. With the exception of the R-32GE, they are the only cars w/no a/c left in the entire system! Fans and propped open storm doors! Also, all R-36 (ML and WF) cars have blinking lights (like the Philly M-3s and many Metro North / LIRR MUs) and still have the center lighting track and thus are brighter. Just don't ride 9336, it has R-33 ML style lighting and no blinking lights. Hurry, they'll be gone by July (lest you're going on the fantrip)!
They (R-33 singles) won't be gone by July. They MIGHT be temporarily out of service for the summer (I haven't checked on that yet, but I will if I have time), but they'll be running for another two years at least. The new cars (R-142/142A) haven't even been tested in revenue service yet, and it is expected that no more than 150 will be in service by the end of the year (and THAT assumes that the test goes flawlessly).
David
And that, unfortunately, spells DOOM for the Rustiest of the Redbirds, namely the R26s.
I was taking in some of the sights at the CTA El Website whilst watching the Mets/Cubs - some of their 1960s equipment has already been scrapped after less than 30 years service - the 2000 series (which look kind of like our Slant R40s)! Talk about a quick hook! On the other side of the coin, some of their 1920s-vintage 4000 series cars (the ones with the funny vents on the roofs) made 50 years.
wayne
I'm one of the very few who not only likes, but LOVES riding in those cars on hot days! I don't know why - maybe because this is the last reminder of what the subway was before I grew to appreciate it. I am in absolute bliss when riding in those cars on hot days with the fans, open doors, windows, etc, with a breeze blowing through the car and being washed in the thundering roar and schreeching in the tunnel and the rumble and clacking on the elevated tracks.
Is this what subway travel used to be? If so, I really got screwed! I missed out on a lot of class!
Why couldn't my parents have met 10-15 years earlier??? ;-)
I know you're going to think I'm a mental case, but this is my honest opinion.
>>>> I am in absolute bliss when riding in those cars on hot days with the fans, open doors, windows, etc, with a breeze blowing through the car and being washed in the thundering roar and schreeching in the tunnel and the rumble and clacking on the elevated tracks. <<<<<
I understand your feelings expressed above. Somehow riding in the new cars doesn't seem as adventurous as the old stock. I remember riding the old (Hi Vs & Lo-Vs) IRT trains standing between the cars to get the warm breeze in the subway tunnels during the summer, and nothing was better than riding on the platforms of the gate cars on the El's.
As far as noise levels go, if you wanted to say something to a traveling companion, you leaned close to his/her ear, cupped your hand and shouted. There was no such thing as casual conversation on the trains while they were running in the tunnels with the windows and storm doors open.
06/14/2000
Well one thing you can say about the R-33 singles before they withdraw them for summer is you are almost guaranteed a seat. Nobody wants to ride them in the hot weather!
Bill "Newkirk"
I know you're going to think I'm a mental case, but this is my honest opinion.
You sound perfectly normal to me.
--Mark
Sometimes I wish my folks hadn't waited 10 years before starting a family.:-)
Yeah, those were the days - R-1/9s moaning, groaning, grunting, and howling along, R-10s thundering on the A along CPW, I-beams and stations being nothing but blurs, etc.
Why couldn't my parents have met 10-15 years earlier???
If they had, wouldn't it have been called statuatory rape?
I know you're going to think I'm a mental case...
Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't mind the newer equipment, it's the eerie silence I can't stand. One of my favorite things is to hear a train in full throated cry going around a tight curve. Mott Avenue is one of my favorite listening spots as the northbound Redbirds make their weepy entrance.
Few things upset me more than the sight of a track sprayer.
wayne
They Will??????????????
Finally
B-)
I'm sorry if this is a repetitive post or was discussed many moons ago, but. . .
Has MTA decided what the new configuration of trains is going to be once the connection of the B/Q are connected up at Queens Plaza? What train will be going where?
Also, does this affect "Express" service on the not-so-express N & R lines? On top of that, after the connection is made in Queens, what about the effects on the Manh Bridge and THAT altered service?
Actually, the connection will be near 36th St. so that trains taking the 63th tunnel will bypass Queens Plaza. And no, there hasn't been any decision yet of the new service patterns once the construction is complete.
As for repetitiveness - this question has been asked more often than any other in the last several months! (but since you are new to this bulletin board - we'll cut you come slack and only say Welcome Aboard! :-). Make sure to visit the Frequently Asked Questions page of this website.
He's posted before.
There should be a $1.50 charge for any post containing the words 63rd Street, service, configuration or basically anything relating to this same question.
Persons having posted at least a certain number of messages over a certain period of time will be exempt from the charge as they are less likely to pose this question and should not be barred from legitimate discussion.
Speaking of message taxes, a similar charge should be levied for messages containing greater than a certain ratio or capitals to lower case letters, and a per-letter exclamation point and question mark tax with the first few given free (for legitimate punctuation).
I admit, the second one is to keep a certain person from posting.
i think the concept of message taxes should be extended to include
1. self appointed critics of other posters' errors
2. self absorbed people who seem unaware that other people also have feelings
3. critical people who are unable to tolerate criticism directed at them
I agree Paul. Let's you and I set up a 2 person committee and we'll decide who to hit with the Levies. Of course, if you are critical of my postings, you can always send me private E-mail (again).
well steve, i really don't know about having 2 people... i had been hoping that i could be the judge of who is to be taxed... this way i could be sure that the collected taxes went to the
"heypaul mental health and welfare fund", which would go to the maintenance of my extravagant lifestyle...
heypaul, I think you have an excellent plan.
Now, I suggest that there be a tax on any messages that contain the phrase, "Railfan window." I'm certain you'll collect enough taxes to retire a wealthy man, prehaps buying a number of R-9 units and maybe even a RT yard to keep them in! :-)
Doug aka BMTman
great idea doug... and as the first person today to use that expression, i hereby fine you $5... you can afford it, as i heard you grabbed up about a dozen of the new gold colored $1 coins that they were giving away on the e line where i saw you stretched out asleep last night...
i'm also waiting for the sarge to talk about the town in upstate new york where he recently vacationed... i'm going to hit him with a $10 fine for mentioning that place... that place that led me to becoming a filthy hopeless bum like you doug...
Oh no!...the truth is out....
:-O
i am sorry to have exposed your sorry situation ...
it's interesting that you just used the :-O face... you were sleeping with your mouth wide open and snoring loudly... that's what made me decide to spend last night in the homeless shelter in sheepshead bay...
Taxes, fines, thought police. Now I know who the Democrats on this site are. While you're at it, why not bring in Al Gore and Janet Reno as advisors.
Don't you mean Republicans? Wasn't it a Republican who sponsored that law in Missouri? that says you can be fined if you're aroused in public?
Oh, yeah, those 'champions of family values' who have made a sport out of cheating on their wives.
The best solution to get a government working 'For, By, and Of the People' is ban political parties altogether.
-Hank
Historical perspective here. Let us look at the last 50 years of US Presidents.
Truman May have cheated - too long ago.
Eisenhower (Republican) Definitely Cheated
Kennedy (Democrat) Definitely Cheated
Johnson (Democrat) Definitely Cheated
Nixon (Republican) Definitely Cheated but not sexually
Ford (Republican) Doubtful - Too Clumsy
Carter (Democrat) Only in his heart
Reagan (Republican) Not after he left Hollywood but screwed the Air traffic Controllers
Bush (Republican) If he didn't he was crazy.
Clinton (Democrat) Depends on your definition of sex
Say what you will, no party has a monopoly on morality
LOL!
Train Dude, do you mind if I keep the above locked in my computer's filing system for future reference? Free of charge?
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Help yourself. I love to share.
At least that's a fairer assessment of the problem. The only thing I don't appreciate is that slam on Barbara Bush. She is my favorite First Lady and wonderful person. You ought to take that back.
She's more masculine than Jesse Ventura ;-)
Yeah, but she's famous! Her face is on every $1 bill, and now she's doing TV commercials!
-Hank :)
And your Hillary Clinton is a lying, snobby, elitist bitch. And a Yankee fan? Please spare my the liberal claptrap on that one.
In fairness, Fred, I also liked her as a first lady. However, sexually she did very little for me (almost as little as janet Reno). Since I was discussing the former president's possible motivations for infidelity, I think the comment was appropriate - even if not in the best taste.
No problem with that explanation. I have done some things in bad taste, too, so no problem as far as you're concerned. But please don't compare anyone with Janet Reno. She has a face and personality that would scare children. On her behalf, I heard she is ill and hope she recovers and lives a long life------and the next few months go by fast enough so that she can vacate the office she has disgraced.
Fred, get off your Right Wing Facist Politics, we had a agreement.
Right Wing Fascist! Come on, Bob, even you don't believe that nonsense. I'm a compassionate Conservative.
Yeh Right, Big Business rules, the hell with the working people, and you a school teacher yet.
I happen to be a staunch Union Man (AFT), a part of the AFL-CIO. I'm pro-choice, and a radical on education and support for teachers. That is not a fascist. As my friends out here can verify, it is very hard to catalogue me. I defy cataloging.
I wonder what you think of that slumlord Al Gore? H e's ok, he can be a slumlord because the economy is ok. At least Bob Livingston, and Newt Gingrich ( the latter a bum) had the decency to resign while that moral degenerate Clinton didn't. All that will change in five months----I hope anyway.
Not reallly. We'll just end up with a different degenerate in the White House.
Makes me think that the DNA quality of those who seek public office is somehow tainted with inferior genetic chemistry.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman (I'm baaaack!)
Good to have you back Doug. It means that it won't get boring on this site. Actually, you might have a point. It does appear, though, that both candidates are loyal family men. That will be an improvement, but I don't think either one would want to be a subway rider.
Because Bill Clinton can stand up to the Religious Reich because they're not in his party.
The other two are in a good party tainted by the Religious Reich.
I'd vote for you but even though I am a Republican, if I could get in on a corrupt new revenue raising venture, I could act like a Democrat.
steve...i welcome your support, and i will see to it that your share of all corrupt funds will be sent to you in a plain brown envelope...
4. Politically Correct people who believe that everyone should be polite to everyone else and any criticism is automatically "hurting one's feelings" like those of a little child.
Ah, the wisdom of youth - well said!!
Punitive taxes that are enforced only on a minority group...great. Amazing how far we've come since the Boston Tea Party.
-Hank
The Tea Act was not imposed on a minority group, it was imposed on all tea, which was a popular beverage even in the colonies.
Those who participated in the Tea Act were not protesting taxes at all, they were protesting the Tea Act's imposition of the British West India Company as an importer monopoly. Many American merchants were involved in the tea import business.
The Civil Rights Act had nothing to do with taxes. Many southern states tried to keep blacks from voting by using a poll tax which was made unconstitutional by the 24th amendment.
The Civil Rights Act had nothing to do with taxes. Many southern states tried to keep blacks from voting by using a poll tax which was made unconstitutional by the 24th amendment.
Did I REALLY have to quote you to point this fallacy out? The Civil Rights Act was signed in 1964 (and I didn't bring it up), the Voting Rights Act in 1965 (which I did)(Remarks of President Lyndon B. Johnson on the passing of said, a good read), the 24th Amendment was ratified 1/23/64 (but not properly enforced). The poll tax was leveled upon a minority. Voting is a constitutionally protected right. So is speech. Taxing someone on what they say is the same thing as taxing them to vote.
-Hank
Oh well
I should have had my message fall under a tax.
Punitive taxes that are enforced only on a minority group...great. Amazing how far we've come since the Boston Tea Party.
No, wait---make that the Voting Rights Act of 1965...
-Hank
You guys can just forward the money collected over to me. In fact if you think it's such a good idea to tax posters, maybe you all should pay for the privledge...
-Dave
Sounds perfectly right.
-Hank :)
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT LINES WILL USE THE SIXTY-THIRD STREET TUNNEL??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT TO STAND BY THE RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????!!!!!
That'll be $10, please, payable to David Pirmann.
$5 for asking about 63st,$2.50 for the railfan window, and another $2.50 for the excess punctuation.
-Hank :)
The actual charge (kindly remit to Dave Pirmann) is $15.00. $5 for asking about 63st,$2.50 for the railfan window, $2.50 for the excess puncuation, and $5 for shouting.
Dan :)
Hey, Sarge, just for that message alone, you will owe heypaul a month's salary.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul can't collect. Since Dave P. owns the playroom, he gets the $$$.
What If we want to talk about the 63rd Street line of the Chicago Rapid Transit? (Yes..there is one!)
If the message contains the words Chicago, CTA, CRT (we have to figure that, don't we?), Jackson Park or any other ones (not south side, it's too generic) the charge will not be incurred.
Also, we can have L because it's unlikely that that train in New York will be discussed in the context of the 63rd Street Connection.
You mean the CTA's 63rd St line doesn't transfer to New York's 63rd Street line? I didn't know that :)
--Mark
Has MTA decided what the new configuration of trains is going to be once the connection of the B/Q are connected up at Queens Plaza? What train will be going where? :-)
Chicago Arti
Wasn't that clear, but since few other cars look like them, it may just be...
From the Gowanus this evening, I spotted what most definately appeared to be at least 3 R44/46 type cars in the yard behind Costco. You know, the one that SBK and NYCH share with all those scrap buses?
So, am I seeing things, and if I'm not (and I don't think I am, because I was awake and sober) where are these cars going? Scrap? Rebuild?
-Hank
Those trains been there for month & they are heading to Scrap Company in New Jeresy. Also there is R42 #4685 at SBK Scrap Yard.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
Why?
I think we went over this about two months ago, but there are 3 R44s some flatcars and an R42 at the SBK/NYCH yard. You could see the pics I once poseted here at:
BMT/IND page at New York Area Railroads
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
I forgot to add that upon closer inspection of the R44 behind the R42, the car still exhibits the blue stripe reminiscent of the 1970s and 80s.
-Daniel
I went to your site; some of the photos are nice, but I didn't see any of R-44s being scrapped. I also noticed that you have misidntified several photos of R-46s as R-68s - the G and F run R-46s, not R-68s.
subfan
I agree, you should change the captions, I could point out the corrections if nececary
Yes, the scrapped equipment is still there as of last weekend.
Doug aka BMTman
how much scrap NYCTA is there and what's the location??
Probably not much. In fact, one of NYCT's goals for this year is to start up a reclamation program for heavily damaged cars. Eight cars (don't know which ones -- wish I did) are to be brought back to good condition by the end of the year, two by the end of this month.
David
That sounds like (fanfare) SLANT R40 #4259 AND ex-R40M Slant R40 #4260, (EX R40M #4461).
They also have Slant R40 #4427 and #4428 to work on - GOOD LUCK! These will test the Body Doctors to their limits. They both need whole noses, bonnets, front-end ironwork and then some (HVAC Units, cab controls/console, sign, storm door, anti-climber, &c - THE WORKS). Their ends have been VERY badly damaged in a January 8, 1996 collision at Bushwick-Aberdeen. #4427 looks to have gotten the worst of it.
Can anybody confirm this one?
Other non-revenue stuff floating about could include some of the following:
R32 #3620 (frame) (Does anybody have a mate for him?)
R44 #5283 (ex.#129) (fire damage)
R44 #5319 (ex.#295) (fire damage)
Some of the R44s held in dead storage from before the GOH
ALL PURELY SPECULATION, of course, pending confirmation from someone in the know at Coney Island Shoppe.
wayne
[They also have Slant R40 #4427 and #4428 to work on - GOOD LUCK! These will test the Body Doctors to their limits. They both need whole noses, bonnets, front-end ironwork and then some (HVAC Units, cab controls/console, sign, storm door, anti-climber, &c - THE WORKS). Their ends have been VERY badly damaged in a January 8, 1996 collision at Bushwick-Aberdeen. #4427 looks to have gotten the worst of it.]
I'll say one thing - subway cars are a lot tougher than motor vehicles. I live about a mile from some large auto junkyards, so flatbed trucks carrying damaged vehicles to their final resting places are a common sight. It never ceases to amaze me how little damage some of these cars have. The way things are going, it's almost as if you have to junk a car if you crack its headlight :-) But it's nice to see that really battered subway cars can be restored to good health. It shows we aren't completely a throwaway society.
#4427 sounds like a particularly thorny case - she's been sort of flattened by runaway #4428. The roof line looks to have been collapsed; the accident occurred at the bottom of the ramp as #4428 skidded on the ice-and-snow-covered rails. The Body Doctors do wonderful work, but they do it slowly and methodically. I'm particularly impressed by the transformation of R40M into Slant R40 #4260. If they're talking about having one ready by this month's end, this may be the one. Its mate #4259 (bonnet and corner damage) - not sure if she's been repaired yet.
wayne
Subway cars used to be tougher than they are now. And the BMT standards were probably the toughest.
Unfortunately, you may be right about automobiles bring junked for headlights. Recently, I did some suspension, tie-rod replacement and contracted out through Goodyear for tires, wheel alignment and vehicle inspection for a friend's car. The car failed the inspection because the headlights were misaligned by standards of a motor vehicle inspection computer! Nowadays, you will see cars in very good shape being junked because of the emissions control devices, some of which are almost as expensive as the book value of the car itself. Stupid laws such as CARB take the good old fashioned technologies and durable vehicles and force consumers to either spend more money in the repair industries or at the showroom. Either way, it is an adjustment through both government and the automakers to take your taxes and money and reminds us of why GM forced the trolleys out.
I think 3904/3559 are 2 of them. At least 2 years ago, 3904 was the lead car of a midnite s/b E train in the 53rd St. tube. An overhead grating fell onto the tracks. Both cars sustained substantial damage.
Yep, both #3904 and #3559 (they were damaged as an Odd Couple) got hot feet there in the tunnel.
You are likely right about their return; although one source some time ago stated that the Parts Vultures had paid them a visit while at Coney Island. Perhaps they have now replaced the appropriated parts.
wayne
Hot feet is an understatement. I was on scene during the incident and the brake culinder on the #1 truck of 3904 was completely melted. The original damage has been repaired for more than a year. Missing parts are keeping these cars on the sidelines.
I wonder how many cars in the entire fleet are kept sidelined because of unavailable spare parts.
07/06/2000
[I wonder how many cars in the entire fleet are kept sidelined because of unavailable spare parts.]
Well, for fun and games you can start with 3 R-110B's. Sidelined for lack of parts and a parts source to keep the other six running. They're running on the (C), if they had they other 3 cars, they would be on the (A).
Does the same apply to the R-110A's ? I doubt if they're running.
Bill "Newkirk"
In The scrap yard section of this website there are pictures of cars in a scrapyard from 1997, There were R 15s there which were scrapped 10 years earlier, why were they kept for so long? Could they be restored to a usible condition, when were, those naporano pictures taken, why were those r44/42s scrapped? when is a car considered scrapped,when it enters the scrapyard, or when it is physically scraped?
I took most of the Naporano pictures in 1989, with a train dispatcher at the time, in N.J. At the rate the TA was scrapping subway cars, I would figure that the scrappers would have no more than a three day turnaround to demolish, separate and recycle a typical car of it's steel, copper and other plastics and fiberglass. They had over fourty cars on the site and they were working with lots of heavy machinery, such as payloaders, cranes and old fashioned tools, torches, hammers and cutting tools. Nowadays, it will probably take a little longer as the R134 must be reclaimed before the A/C can be scrapped from the car. 1400 cars will definately keep them busy. Most cars are deemed scrapped from the inspection barn to which they belong so they are considered scrapped at least when SBK latches on for their haul off system property, unless they are going to a museum, in which they are still scrapped as far as the TA is concerned.
NYCT subway cars, pre-R-110A/B, use refrigerant R-22.
David
Either one has to be reclaimed through special machinery before the piping and compressor can be stripped and although may not add much time to the dismantling of a said car, it is the law and fines can be issued. Are you sure about the old R22? I thought everything is now using R134 by now.
I'm pretty sure. To my knowledge, the fleet has never been retrofitted to use R-134A. The new cars will use it, though.
David
You're right, the existing systems were never retrofitted for R134.
However, I thought the refrigerant was R-12, not R-22?
R-42 Overhaul Contract specification book, page T-10-14 Addendum 4:
"10.4.2.C. HEAT EXCHANGE MEDIUM.
The heat exchange medium shall be refrigerant R-22."
This was typical for the GOH program, and, as far as I am aware, for new car contracts as well.
David
I fell like the home plate umpire signalling to first base to call on a check swing but I refer my question to TRAIN DUDE as I thought the R22 is the bus and train equivalent to FREON, or R12. Freon is no longer used in new production today and if found on the black market for older automobiles, can run as high as $600 for the large bottle. The R42 overhaul specs were written in the late eighties, when freon was still available. I did some restoration work to my '68 Fury and found that spending an extra $200 to restore my air conditioning to accept the R134 would save me money in the long run since in '94 it would have been $125 a shot to charge the system, just to find the leakage.
Freon can still be obtained legally IF you are a certified refrigeration technician, have a license, etc. But as you correctly note it is ridiculously expensive. When the a/c fails at my NC house the next time I'll replace the unit because that will be the cost-effective alternative there; AFAIK all four of our vehicles use the modern stuff now, so no problem there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
CFC's are a groupp of refrigerants of which Freon 12 and Freon 22 are a part of. They have some properties in common but are chemically different and not readily interchangable.
Freon 12 has virtually disapeared from the marketplace by din of it's cost and regulation. In recent years it was relegated to use in auto AC systems. Fortunately, R-134 systems are very similar to R-12 systems and a conversion from 12 to 134 can be done in the average auto for under $50.
Freon 22 is more common. It's used in most home units requiring CFC refrigerants. It is still readily available and will be so until 2010, I believe. R-22 is used in all NYCT cars and busses except the R-110s and R-142s. I am not sure as to what busses if any use HFC systems.
Freon is/was a DuPont trademark for various Clorinated Hydrocarbon products, notably R12, R22, and 1,1,1,Trichloroethane (Freon(R) solvent) HFC's such as R-134a are of the Hydroflorocarbon family. BTW, my NRHS Chapter recently purchased 4 LIRR Diesel coaches (2900's), These were converted to R-134a using the original 45-year old Frigidaire compressor.
Using the original compressor shouldn't be a big problem as long as the oil is flushed completely. When I did my Fury, all I had to change was the cannister filter/drier assembly, rotted hoses and the old oil and traces of the freon flushed out before the new system was pressurized. The cost of renewing to the new standards was cheaper than searching for and paying for the R12. The only downfall seems to be an increase of the lower temp at the blowers using the R134
Freon is a brand name from DuPont. So any CFC that DuPont made, at least up to some recent year, was called Freon-XXX by them. I think some HCFCs were called "freon" by DuPont, but I am not sure. So both R-12 and R-22 can be called freon...
Historical obscure note: I have read speculation that the strange freon numbering system was invented by DuPont to confuse the competition!! Anyone who paid attention in freshman chemistry could probably figure out a way to figure out the molecular formula of a sample of freon (at least the simpler ones, which are most of the market). So I bet the numbering system just gave them numbers they thought sounded good. Nevertheless, the system is strange enough that maybe they did try to be crafty.
I work for Carrier Corp and will speak to some engineers tomorrow. My guess is that the "R"- numbers for these refrigerants came from ASHRAE-- the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air conditioning Engineers
Maybe they could bring back those R15s. I remember riding them as a kid. They had the cicular windows on all the doors. Maybe we could even see an R15 up in East Haven running alongside R17 #6688. Give it a Redbird paint scheme too By the way, any other R17s still around? The R15s and R17s were my two favorite cars when I was a kid (not including the graffitti, of course).
Sorry friend, but those R-15s are long gone. I remember seeing 5981 and 6235 being carted off to scrap in late 1994. They were coupled in between working sets of GOH Cars (R-26s, etc), there was no power, they were simply pulled dead. They weren't scrapped immediately, as it turns out. They were on the Scrap Line at 39th St until early 1997, when they were finally claimed by the Scrappers who gladly cut them up.
Run an R-15 alongside an R-17? That's great! Unfrotunately, there aren't any that Shore Line can grab, unless The Transit Museum wants to part company with 6239. If it's going to be painted in any scheme, it must be depicted accurately. Redbird paint never touched an R-15.
With regards to any other R-17s that may be left, other than a working 6688, there are two. 6609 is preserved at the Transit Museum in Maroon Paint and is non-functioning. 6895 is in work service colors (yellow paint), and can roll around, is slated to be preserved for the Museum. 6895 can be found near the entrance of the Jerome Maintenance Shop on Paul Av, here in the Bronx. An R-22 is also slated for preservation, 7486.
-Stef
Is it easy to get in there? How? I never went beyond the fence.
You'd best to go there on a weekday, preferably in the a.m. when there is the possibility of the gates being wide open and a railfan-friendly security guard on duty. Also, you might expect to see some car movements if you're lucky.
On weekends the place is dead and locked up. Peeping through the fencing is not a crime.
Doug aka BMTman
Just before 2 PM today, car 3730 was observed on an E train at the bumper block at WTC. The air conditioning was repaired. As for the other defects with that car, all were still there! The storm door glass was cracked right down the middle, it wasn't changed because it passed for a deep scratch, was not in danger of falling out and would not pose a safety hazard for someone to cut themselves if they touched it. They will probably change it when the car goes in for inspection. Other glass was scratched, but nothing worse than any other R32. The cab door was beat up as well as the floor. When the car gets its' new floor, the cab door has to be taken off to expedite the work, so either that cab door will be repaired, put on another car, or scrapped altogether. I doubt if the same cab door will be reinstalled in the same poor condition. For your interest, that train went to Jamaica Yard after the PM rush because of 3 dead motors on the train, one being its' mate: 3731.
Many thanks! I very rarely get to ride the car; its always on the train I just missed, or going the other way, or the train after mine, or worse, on the same exact train, near the other end so I don't know until it leaves; so I probably wouldn't have found this out until at least next month. As for 3731 having a dead motor, I think that happens a lot. I recall the first time I rode 3730 (3 times in the same day) seeing the orange lights on the adjacent car, probably 3731.
3731 is prone to having a dead motor quite often. And because a dead motor=no dynamic brake, I have heard that car squeal to the point of your ears hurting on more than one occasion.
I just got home from my trip to Niagara Falls with my wife and kid. We were there a week. Since Toronto is only about 75 miles from the falls we went there twice, this past Friday and Saturday. Friday was for sightseeing and Saturday we went to Woodbine Racetrack just outside the city then went into the city for dinner and more sightseeing. On Friday we rode the subway, but just for a few stations. It was very nice. We rode the yellow line. I'm not sure if its called that but the line is yellow on the map. It is a horseshoe shaped line. There are both side platform stations and center platform stations. The trains were nice, the exterior looked a little like NYC trains but the interior was a pleasing red. Wayne Mr Slant would like the fact they screech very loudly before and after the Union Station. One thing I was surprised about was the train was messy with newspapers and wrappers on the floor, however since I only did a round trip of a few stations I'm not sure if its typical. The fare is $2.00 Canadian which is about $1.40 US currency.
On Saturday after the track we were looking for a place to eat. A restaurant caught our eye on Queen Street and we looked for parking. We finally found a spot about a mile away which gave us the excuse to take a streetcar. (Other than Branford and the new Jersey light rail I have never been on a real trolley) The Queen St cars are articulated, most of the other cars in Toronto on other streets aren't. We got on, put 2 Two-dollar coins in the farebox and the motorwoman asked where is the money for three year old Arthur. She said its 50¢ for him which is about 35¢ American. I'm just glad I didn't get in trouble having Arthur go under the turnstile on the subway!!! To be honest with you, even though the trolleys look cool on the outside it felt just like a bus inside!! And when all the traffic in front of us went around a taxi discharging a slow eldery passenger we of course had to wait until it left. A thing that got me nervous was exiting from the middle of the street with cars in the right lane, especially with Arthur.
By the way, anyone going to Toronto must visit the CN Tower right next to the Skydome (where the Bluejays play) There are observation decks on the 114th and 147th floor. On the 114th floor they have a glass floor which is scarey as hell to walk on!!! We went on the glass floor, looked straight down and saw batting practice at the Skydome 114 stories above them. Also for railfans you can see alot of commuter rail lines from up above.
Well, I gotta go help my wife with the unpacking.
Great post. We are planning the same trip in August. You forgot to
go to the Hockey Hall of Fame!!!
One thing I was surprised about was the train was messy with newspapers and wrappers on the floor, however since I only did a round trip of a few stations I'm not sure if its typical.
When I was there in May, EVERY train I caught had a newspaper lying on a seat somewhere. Didn't see the wrappers or other litter, though.
And when all the traffic in front of us went around a taxi discharging a slow eldery passenger we of course had to wait until it left.
The Spadina/Waterfront line has its own dedicated ROW. A much different experience than running with street traffic.
visit the CN Tower ... observation decks on the 114th and 147th floor. On the 114th floor they have a glass floor which is scarey as hell to walk on!!! We went on the glass floor, looked straight down and saw batting practice at the Skydome 114 stories above them. Also for railfans you can see alot of commuter rail lines from up above.
I actually watched part of a game that way LYING on that glass floor. Gave some of the other tourists who were scared s***less to go on it quite a thrill.
--Mark
Welcome Back
When I went on tonight the cookie with my handle, password, and email address was not displaying and I had to re-enter the information.
Anybody else have this problem?
I use Netscape, and I did have a frozen screen earlier today.
The cookie file is stored on your PC, not here on my server. It sounds like your Netscape must have trashed/erased the cookie file.
If you use Netscape, the cookies are stored in the User/Username (the name Netscape gives to the profile you set up at installation)Folder under Netscape/Communicator. The actual file is cookies.txt. You can back this up (I use a folder under my Username folder called Archive.) Copy the cookies.txt to this folder and if Netscape trashes the cookies.txt it uses, copy the archived file to the Username folder, and the cookies come back. Netscape also tends to reset the netscape.hst file from time to time, which is the file that remembers what links you used. When that happens, every post on SubTalk/busTalk looks like you never read it. Copy the netscape.hst file to the archive folder you set up, and if Netscape decides to reset it, close Netscape, copy the .hst file from Archive to Username, restart Netscape and all the history comes back. Netscape has never trashed my cookies.txt, but its tried to reset the history file twice.
That archived history file has saved a lot of rereading.
But then after you re-typed it, did it save it?
If it did, who cares?
If it didn't, you should have said that.
It is working properly now. It probably happened when my browser got stuck and crashed.
Did you also lose your viewing settings, and the last visit announcement (you know, Welcome Back?).
Interesting reading,
HORROR OF "12-9"
Peace,
ANDEE
THREE PEOPLE KILLED PER MONTH ON AVERAGE!
We often accuse the media of sensationalizing problems. With 226 people killed by subway trains after falling through the tracks, however, that surely is not the case here. I guess an anecdote beats a statistic every time. Not until you had a saleable angle -- several people pushed -- did this problem hit the news.
Yesterday's Daily News had an article with comparative statistics.
Arti
There was also a recent article in the Daily News a few weeks back that discussed the same subject.
--Mark
In my last year as a Road Car Inspector, I worked one of Manhattan's busiest stations. In one 60 day period I had to respond to seven (7) 12-9s and (2) space cases. Rationalize it any way you wish, I would not want to be the instrument of someone's death - even if it was their intent. I can understand the feeling of anger experienced by some train operators after a 12-9.
This, and incidents like draggings, may have been acceptable in 1904, but it strikes me as completely inexcusable now that we have the technology for platform doors, CBTC, and transponders that could be carried by workers.
I posted an a refernce to a Daily News article on similar topics some days back, but nobody commented. There were a number of proposals there to increase safety, many of them totally laughable--like the proposal to move back the yellow line and make it illegal for people to stand in front of it, as if people in an overcrowded station or walking past a stairway with inadequate clearance had any choice! Every time I walk past some of the newly expanded staircases I feel like I'm taking my life in my hands--not because I'll fall, but because some drunk or druggie or crazy may lurch and push me into a train.
Damn, it's one thing when bureaucrats and politicians waste money and inconveniencing people, but we're talking deaths here, most of them, it seems, completely needless.
With all the recent crime in the city, like the recent subway pushings, Wendy's shooting, and the most recent sexual assault of 10 women on a crowded street, one can't help but wonder just how safe NYC really is.
Although it is not related to the subway and if off topic, let me just comment on that briefly. I find it quite scary, and inexcusable that a group of young men can randomly assault women for a period of time and people just look on, even the cops don't respond.
Is NYC turning a blind eye to crime once again? If someone tries to push me on the subway tracks, will anybody stop them? I saw someone getting assaulted in the Manhattan Mall recently, fortunately mall guards were already responding quickly, but I did not see any police on the scene.
And I'm really nervous standing on those crowded platforms now. Often I'll wait at the bottom of the staircase and will start heading toward the platform when the train slows.
To tell you the truth I'm afraid to venture too much into Midtown or anywhere else groups of young men (teen gangs) hang out. I only feel safe in mostly asian areas such as Chinatown, since Chinese people often don't act like others do, and young people are few and far between.
I used to think only quiet areas were unsafe because criminals can take advantage of you if there's no one else around, but it seems they have an equal chance in a busy area as well, as the recent subway pushings and Central Park attack were in very busy areas. And police presence had alot to be desired.
So how do we cope? Well I think NYC subway needs to modernize. Take a look at the MTR in Hong Kong. They have platform doors that only open when trains arrive. These protective screens not only keep people safe from moving trains, they also keep the heat in the tunnel, so stations are cool. It's about time NYC start really modernizing these subways, a system that moves so many people should be modernized from it's rather outdated design that is 50 years old and over.
The IRT should be widened to BMT standards and computers, not signals, should dictate speed of trains that way more could be fit in.
I know this all costs money, but take a look at Hong Kong, Singapore, and even China, if they have the money, than we should too. I guess perhaps they just spend their money more wisely over there.
But for now, I take alot of precautions. I stand well away from subway platforms, especially when trains are coming, and I try to stand by something I could hold onto. I avoid any areas where youths hang out (Manhattan Mall, Times Square during afternoon,etc), and also avoid riding the subway between 2 and 4pm when they get out of school. Also quiet subway stations might be unsafe too, but it does depend on the area. I don't feel unsafe in Canal street at all, even in the J,M,Z area because there are enough people around.
Even as much as a railfan as I am, I don't like staying in the subway for more than 1 hour at a time lately.
I know there will be those here who may disagree with me about the safety issue but I do feel more unsafe now in NYC than I did last year, even if I never heard the recent news stories. I just sense a worsening element in the city, with the only exception being areas with an asian majority, which I feel most comfortable in.
So I'll really mainly stick with going to Chinatown, parts of Queens (perhaps Flushing), and the southern half of Staten Island.
For me, the recent attack on women in broad daylight in a crowded part of Central Park scares me more than the Flushing shooting because it happened in broad daylight in a busy area, not at 11pm at night in a not so busy one.
Am I the only one here who feels more unsafe lately in the city?
[I know this all costs money, but take a look at Hong Kong, Singapore, and even China, if they have the money, than we should too. ]
Even Russia "has" money although GNP being less than of that of Denmark. Have you noticed that all these examples are totalitarian regimes.
[Am I the only one here who feels more unsafe lately in the city? ]
It looks like there is less police presence in the city. Also media has demonized the police lately, could this be the cause?
Arti
It sure doesn't help that the media has bashed the cops. I'm worried we may be returning to the "bad old days" when the people turned against the NYPD and crime went up, because of liberalization of the NYPD due to public pressure.
I think there is less aggressive policing also.
Just the other day, I saw someone pass a red light. There was a cop sitting in his car at the corner and he did nothing.
The person in the car was not probably not a fellow officer since they didn't exchange glances or anything.
Can you really blame this change in attitude? You have the media demonizing the police ervy chance they get. And now you have entertainers like Springsteen who shouldn't even be getting involved in this political thing since he doesn't a clue as to what's happening outside of his ivory tower in Jersey or wherever he calls home.
Catch 22. Crime goes down due to aggressive police tactics it's called fascism by the media elite. You have a Central Park attack like last Sunday and the same elitists scream that the police are not aggressive enough in dealing with crime.
You've raised a lot of issues, but here's my take on some of them.
Platform doors are a nice idea in theory, but they'd be very difficult to implement in New York given the different types of equipment in use. There's been some discussion of them here. IIRC, they'll work only if each line has standardized equipment, something not likely to happen in NYC for a long time if ever.
Problems with unruly youths on the subways after schools let out have been noted for many years. I believe that school safety officers should be deployed in stations and trains, particularly the known trouble spots, during the after-school hours. It's really just a natural extension of their duties. New York's bureaucracy being the way it is, I doubt if this idea will ever go anywhere.
Last weekend's attacks in Central Park raise quite an interesting issue. According to sources quoted in today's Daily News, the police were ineffective in preventing trouble mainly because they're told to adopt a "hands off" approach whenever there's a large gathering of minorities (the attacks happened right after the Puerto Rican Day parade). One source noted that police enforcement of public drinking and other laws is extremely stringent for the St.Patrick's Day parade, but totally lax for the Caribbean Day parade.
As far as crime in general is concerned, my view is that a relatively small number of highly publicized incidents has contributed to a misleading notion that crime rates are on the rise. Crime rates actually have continued to fall in all major categories except murders. And because murders are relatively uncommon, just a few more incidents can translate into a big percentage increase.
The problem is the narrow width and type of trains do make it difficult for platform doors to be used. Many stations would have to be widened and expanded, and train types would have to be more uniform. It still could be done though, in what probably would be the biggest renovation NYC subway has ever seen.
But the problem is in NYC we have all the politics that China and Singapore don't have, so getting the platform doors would be a feat of
"Hippo" proportions.
Once upon a time the busiest IRT stations had railings along the edge of the platform. With chains that a guard unhooked when the train stopped. I realize we'll never see that type of manpower again but if nothing else railings with openings could be used and those concerned could hang onto the railings. Of course some nut with strength could pull you away.I guess we have to be grateful considering the numbers of passengers that dangerous incidents are rare exceptions.
[Once upon a time the busiest IRT stations had railings along the edge of the platform. With chains that a guard unhooked when the train stopped. I realize we'll never see that type of manpower again but if nothing else railings with openings could be used and those concerned could hang onto the railings. Of course some nut with strength could pull you away.I guess we have to be grateful considering the numbers of passengers that dangerous incidents are rare exceptions.]
The Daily News article actually said they were considering adding railings.
[The problem is the narrow width and type of trains do make it difficult for platform doors to be used. Many stations would have to be widened and expanded, and train types would have to be more uniform. It still could be done though, in what probably would be the biggest renovation NYC subway has ever seen.
But the problem is in NYC we have all the politics that China and Singapore don't have, so getting the platform doors would be a feat of "Hippo" proportions.]
How thick does a platform door have to be? Couldn't the motors be placed under the lip of the platform? Then they'd be only a few inches thick.
[Platform doors are a nice idea in theory, but they'd be very difficult to implement in New York given the different types of equipment in use. There's been some discussion of them here. IIRC, they'll work only if each line has standardized equipment, something not likely to happen in NYC for a long time if ever.]
Betcha could design them to work with any kind of train. Some kind of spring loaded slat arrangement in guideways. They wouldn't be as good at blocking sound or keeping out hot air but they'd solve the safety problem.
OTOH, IRT cars are all the same length, and it seems to me that if they tied they could segregate the 60 and 75 footers by line. Even regular doors don't have to line up precisely--you want them to be longer than the train door so that precise alignment isn't necessary & if you do things right they'll open to the right place. I bet you could arrange things so that you needed only 2 configurations--one for 60 foot, one for 75 foot. And you could put them on tracks with modular panels so that a line could converted.
[Last weekend's attacks in Central Park raise quite an interesting issue. According to sources quoted in today's Daily News, the police were ineffective in preventing trouble mainly because they're told to adopt a "hands off" approach whenever there's a large gathering of minorities (the attacks happened right after the Puerto Rican Day parade). One source noted that police enforcement of public drinking and other laws is extremely stringent for the St.Patrick's Day parade, but totally lax for the Caribbean Day parade.]
That's really interesting.
From my perspective, we are getting just what we asked for from our police. Granted, there were two very unfortunate incidents - D'Allou and Dorsmann. However, the media makes them seem that they were days apart and a growing trend rather than 2 incidents, seperated by a year, and both justifiable under police guidelines. Now every cop's actions is second guessed. Grand Juries are impanelled before the facts are known, just to see if we can land 'the big one'.
In the case of the deplorable actions in Central Park, can you blame the police? There were estimated to be more than 40 perpetrators. There were 10 or more times that in spectators. The participants seem to have congretated in the park following a parade which included much drinking. Had the one or two patrol officers intervened, one could imagine the response from the drunken, savage mob. Invriably, deadly force would have become an issue and the officers would again be second guessed if not charged. SHould they have called for back-up ? Definitely. Did they blow it big time? Again definitely? Can you blame them for not trusting the public to support them?? Definitely not.
Its good the city has a consistant policy for parades and drinking. The guide lines for St.Patricks Day and last weekend are the same. Ya right.
Rudy better call in his Community leaders and get some answers for the tourist trade.
As I gaze at the horizon I see new garments in the form of Suits , Law suits for negligence, from the top down.
He is no longer wooing the warious voting blocks for the Senate seat. Get back to work as top cop.
Perhaps I jumping the gun, a blue ribbon panel should be formed to investigate first, then say nothing happened.
avid
I am not blaming the police officers. Because of the media frenzy, going in as only one or two officers could've put everybody in a dangerous situation.
But I think they should've gotten a number of officers to come in and break the attacks up. And if the minorities got upset, they'd be the ones causing the riot.
The media and the black/hispanic leaders are trying to be immune from the law, by blaming police officers for the mistakes of the minority youths. I don't like the way this is going, because if police have to
be restrained from enforcing the law, then our city may go back to the days of high crime and subways full of graffitti.
You said something about Singapore in a post. If this happened there, the cops would open fire and killed those people without second thought.
Eceryone should take responsibility on their actions.
Then call in more color cops!
Color Cops? What color is illegal?
Arti
[In the case of the deplorable actions in Central Park, can you blame the police? There were estimated to be more than 40 perpetrators. There were 10 or more times that in spectators. The participants seem to have congretated in the park following a parade which included much drinking. Had the one or two patrol officers intervened, one could imagine the response from the drunken, savage mob. Invriably, deadly force would have become an issue and the officers would again be second guessed if not charged. SHould they have called for back-up ? Definitely. Did they blow it big time? Again definitely? Can you blame them for not trusting the public to support them?? Definitely not. ]
Well, yes, I can. Those women were a hell of a lot more defenseless than they were! They should have called for backup, then plunged in.
As for platform doors, that idea will never work. The MTA does not want to spend a lot of money to install them and even more money to maintain them.
And don't insult the old-fashined signal system. In Moscow, they can (and do) run trains every 85 seconds. And the signals never get annoying error messages.
I think that the real problem with crime is that nobody cares. There was recently an attempted subway pushing where a bystander actually went and beat up the pusher. If only there were more people like that.
People don't look out for eachother in NYC, only themselves, which can make a bad situation worse. But that is what's happening all over the country, just take a look at the stupid "survivor" show on CBS.
It's a show that pits people against eachother that are stranded on an island, and it is dumb popularity contest.
I had a fall in early May at a bus stop in Great Neck, as I was starting to cross the street. I fell and scraped my hand and arm and was bleeding all over. Yet not one of those six people who got off the bus with me noticed my fall even though I yelled help once, and they walked away. I then boarded another bus to go home and got the bleeding under control with napkins that I carry, but no one asked me what happened even though I walked on the other bus carrying my bag and holding my hand with a blood stained napkin.
When I got home I rinsed it and put on first aid cream and a bandage. But what shocked me was the indifference of people, the cars and people that passed me by, and did not offer any help. I then wonder if someone attacked me in the subway, would anybody help?
There's alot of blame to go around in the park attack, as well as the subway pushings. Bystanders have a right to act in defense of a victim by helping them, by running to the nearest officer or station attendent and telling them what is going on. If someone is acting strange in a subway station and harassing people, somebody should report it. I do. When I get hassled by solicitors in malls I report it to guards, which often do nothing.
The problem is we live in a more uncaring world than ever, and the today's generation of youth is morally bankrupt.
A safe, reliable subway can only result if riders are looking out for one another and not holding up trains by holding doors.
"You see them in their limos, you see the way they stare
They don't see us looking back, cause they don't really care"
Glen Frey
"I've got Mine"
I for one am grateful to read about a bystander beating such a person. I hope he got away with it. The way the cockeyed courts bent the laws in this country he could have been sued by the perpetrator had a cop showed up , no matter if the bystander was doing the right thing. Indeed I wish there were more such good samaritans.
Remember the episode of "Married with Children" when a burglar broke into the Bundy house and Al beat him up? The burglar sued and one $50K because his livelihood was ruined. After the verdict, Al punched him and in a later settlement (not shown on TV) Al won $100K for having hurt his fist against the burglar's head.
On the positive side, when a friend of mine punched out a bum who was razzing his wife the cop asked what had happened, said "I don't blame you," and moved on.
[And don't insult the old-fashined signal system. In Moscow, they can (and do) run trains every 85 seconds. And the signals never get annoying error messages. ]
In Moscow one line per track, stations about 1000 yards apart.
Arti
[And don't insult the old-fashined signal system. In Moscow, they can (and do) run trains every 85 seconds. And the signals never get annoying error messages.]
How do they do that?
Among other things, the signal clears before the tripper does.
Also people never hold doors. I have timed 90 seconds between two trains on the 7th Ave Express, but they could never run all trains that frequently because they sit in stations for a long time because people hold the doors. In Moscow, the doors slam hard enough so that nobody would try to hold them. And they know that the next train is right behind.
Also, at every station there is a timer which shows the time elapsed since the last train left. This lets the train operators (they have OPTO) keep the schedule very precisely.
[This lets the train operators (they have OPTO) keep the schedule very precisely. ]
Thy don't have OPTO, they are just trying to get rid of TWO operators with this Jauza thing. With the help of Adtranz it could be possible. Arcady post if you need more info.
Arti
[Among other things, the signal clears before the tripper does.
Also people never hold doors. I have timed 90 seconds between two trains on the 7th Ave Express, but they could never run all trains that frequently because they sit in stations for a long time because people hold the doors. In Moscow, the doors slam hard enough so that nobody would try to hold them. And they know that the next train is right behind.
Also, at every station there is a timer which shows the time elapsed since the last train left. This lets the train operators (they have OPTO) keep the schedule very precisely]
Interesting. Seems to me that they would all be applicable here, including people not holding the doors--as with everything in NY, people complain about it but nobody ever tries *doing* anything to stop it.
I don't, actually. Not since Giuliani cleaned things up. I think it's important to distinguish between a few highly publicized incidents and the overall crime level, which is ostenisbly the lowest of any large American City.
There was an op ed article in the Times this morning on just this topic . . .
Anyway, I agree with you 100% about the platform doors and automation. Not only would it keep people off the tracks, but it would allow workers to carry transponders which could alert them to a coming train *and* stop a train before the motorman could see them.
I was wondering this morning whether anyone had done a survey to see if fatal subway accidents are related to the level of crowding. In other words, if there are an average of 100 people on a platform in mid day, and 1000 people on the platform during peak periods, are accidents 10 X more likely--or does the rate go up with the crowding? If so, that would be a powerful argument to actually do something about the system's disgraceful overcrowding.
I don't think they should enlarge the IRT tunnels, though, simply because it isn't necessary--if they lengthened the trains and improved signals, operations, and rules, they would have plenty of capacity for less money. It's a matter of doing what's cheapest and causes the least disruption to service! The disgraceful thing is that as others have pointed out service levels were a good deal higher 40 or 50 years ago, with the same tracks and even more passengers than we have today.
" The disgraceful thing is that as others have pointed out service levels were a
good deal higher 40 or 50 years ago, with the same tracks and even more passengers than we have today. "
The problem is because when an accident happens the TA slows things down. They set the signals so trains have to be further apart, so they have to fit less trains in.
The TA needs to speed up the system and loosen up the signals to allow more trains. The subway has always more or less had few accidents, even when speeds were faster. I can't understand why they want to slow things down so much. Not only does it take the fun of railfanning away, it also is more time consuming.
I'm not sure that I would like to accept a higher accident rate to get a little more speed, and I doubt that the people of New York would accept that trade off either.
>>>>>> They set the signals so trains have to be further apart,<<<<<
When did they change the length of the block controls? I'm not aware of any change. In the '40s and ‘50s, subway accidents (other than people on the tracks) were unheard of. Maybe the newspapers were suppressing the news but I doubt it. The problem that has slowed down the system is the poor reliability of the newer equipment.
I don't think so.
I think the two main factors are poorer employee training (you can't trust them to key anymore) and the litigous nature of modern society.
[I think the two main factors are poorer employee training (you can't trust them to key anymore) and the litigous nature of modern society.]
Or management that always takes the path of least resistance.
There was an occasional accident in my young years..the 50's but no fatalities due to operations between l928 and l97l. Since rebuilding most of the modern equipmenthas been OK; back to the infamous 70's though there were more bad trains than good and that refers to anything IRT other than Flushing and evrything older than R32 on B Div.. but I WILL say my beloved Rl-9 were as good as any. Going back to the 40's and 50's with the beloved IRT as we knew it trains were fast, on time and rarely was there ever a dropout [trip annulled].
That reinforces my suspicion that the slowdown is due to bad management rather than real safety issues.
especially those HIPPO's! The R68's seem to crawl more around Dekalb than the other trains.
according to the radio, the us mint is giving away 6,000 free $1 gold coins right now for about 1/2 hour at some station along the e line...
i knew i should have slept on the e line last night
doug was there... i bet he gets a dozen of them
it is supposed to be a way to promote usage of the new dollar coin, which is a rather attractive coin... i really like them alot, and would be happy to receive a 100 of them in consideration of my kind words...
cbs radio also said that they will be giving more away somewhere on the 6th ave line between 2 and 3 o'clock this afternoon...
Gold! Na, it's copper coated just like a penny. I just can't wait to see how they will look after a year.
They are advertizing the heck out of the new coin on the subway. There is an ad in every car. They want the public to accept them.
OK, I want to use them, but where do I get them? The only bills I get myself ae $20s from the cash machine. Every other legal tender I come up with is determined by what I get in change, and no one has given me a dollar coin yet!
Don't your local bank carries them? The token booths has them on the shelf. The RRClerk tries to pass them back out.
[Gold! Na, it's copper coated just like a penny. I just can't wait to see how they will look after a year. ]
It's not coated. It's bimetallic with 2 different copper alloys, I just scratched one.
Arti
It's a bimetal alloy, not coated. I have one that I've been carrying for about three months now... it's tarnishing somewhat like a penny but doesn't look as bad yet. I've been carrying it in my pocket with other change so the high spots have stayed buffed which helps.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have just updated the TrAnSiTiNfO homepage, the first time in over three months. I am now looking for somebody, or people, who is/are interested in Transit, who want(s) to help maintain and design the TrAnSiTiNfO webpage, and who will be really dedicated to the page. If you are interested, please contact me at jcxp15@hotmail.com sometime before June 23rd. Help is really needed.
Sincerely,
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I'm willing to help you!
Flxible Metro B #3511
webmaster@transitalk.com
I'll help too if you still need it.
-Daniel
iostream@redconnect.net
Following other railfans with sites here, I have joined the cjb.net redirect service. So New York Area Railroads is now:
nyrail.cjb.net
old URL: http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/index.html
I took this picture from the window of Amtrak's Vermonter of a group of railfans who had gathered at Palmer Mass. There was a pretty good showing of railfans (i think its called a "mess") and I was only able to capture about 1/4 of them. Untill the end of the week you can find the pic here: http://131.111.228.77/temp/railfans.jpg
At first glance, it looked like the car was speeding into the seated railfans, but then I realized that it was the speed of the train.
-Daniel
They look like they've been waiting for hours, what with the chairs and what not. Palmer must be a red hot hopping town.
i was watching parts of "fabulous trolleys" that i slept through last night, and i noticed that the trolley in new orleans had a nice low old fashioned groan to it.... do they still moan and groan like that?
Because the Perley Thomas cars on St. Charles still have standard controls, trucks and motors. That "groan" is the sound of gear growl - heard on every standard streetcar and subway/elevated car built. Listen to your R1-9 tape - that's the same motor and gear growl.
It's music to our ears.
If you want to hear those sounds, get the tape "A Desire Named Streetcar" by Carson Home Video. It seems like the camcorder
was hung out of the window right by the rear trucks and really picks up those great noises!
Chuck Greene
The rebuilt cars all have the gear noise and the thump of the air compressor. When you are at a stop and the compressor shuts off you can hear the silence. It's a great ride.
The Cannal St. was will ride on Czeck PCC-B3 Air Ride Trucks with chopper controls and AC. They are nice but look like the real thing.
Joe
I would answer with the answer of ""yes" & the reason is that
same experence can be had here on the west coast at the
Orange Empire Museum in peris california where the collection
of the pacific electric system etc......
All of the sounds you posted were wonderful to hear again !!
reminds me even of the old pre world war 2 subway cars...
the musical sounds of the electric motors were wonderful to hear
again ....
Life on electric rails was never the same once those grand old trains were gone. The entire ambience of that prewar stuff wasthe rivited steel bodies saying strength and the growling motors saying POWER. Almost like missing the sound of the old steam engine. I still enjoy traction but it hasn't been the same since all that old stuff disappeared. [I was the only motorman that used to beg the dispatchers to set me up for an R1-9 if they could; not to mention my beloved memories of riding the old IRT and the els as a passenger-railfan.]
Yes, they certainly do still moan and groan.
Thanks for the info, Joe!
Chuck Greene
Sure! Come hear (and operate!) one for yourself on our Seashore FieldTrip on July 15th. We have #966.
Speaking of which, Todd, that show last night on PBS 13 here in NYC featured a lot of Seashore. 631 was in it, I might have caught a quick peak at your "train"....
Does anyone know if the 'S' Rockaway Park to Broad Channel shuttle will be extended to Euclid Avenue on weekends this summer?
- Jim (RailBus)
This service is impossible now, with weekend C service terminating at Euclid
The Rockaway Shuttle service to Euclid would be possible if NYCT would just take the obvious step and extend the 'C' to Lefferts Boulevard (except midnights).
Better yet, extend the 'C' to Lefferts, and run the split 'A' service to the Rockaways - half the trains to Far Rockaway, the other half to Rockaway Park. It seems to me that you wouldn't need too many additional trains and personnel to do this.
- Jim (RailBus)
And while you at it why not run Rockaway trains express peak direction b/w Euclid and Rockaway blwd.
Arti
It does make sense, but it'd require more cars for both the A and C lines, and those riders using the Lefferts Blvd. spur whould do the predictable whining we saw from Dyre Ave line riders earlier this month with the loss of direct express service.
The Lefferts folk would get more frequent service. The A is split so the trains run every 20 minutes to Lefferts or The Rockaways. The C runs every 10. Redirected As to Rock Pk. could be accomplished if the cars from the shuttle were returned to the A, (and use an A-A pair of R-46s or a pair of R-68s for night service), and the R-110B became a regular on the C. The TA could scrape together all the remaining R-30s into a train. Main A service could be lessened slightly, but Rockaways service and Lefferts service would increase.
They could always run the C back to Rockaway Park like they used to do
No they can't, because the car fleet is too small to do this. Remember, the last time the C went to Rockaway Park, the R30's were still in service (10/92).
Even service to Lefferts would require a larger number of cars.
Heaven forbid! Many more cars would be needed and OPTO would be dead. The TA will not spend the money.
If you send Rockaway shuttle service to Euclid, you will interrupt A express service as those trains have to relay on the express tracks north of Euclid in order to do their next trip to the Rock. This is precisely the reason why the TA no longer sends the weekend summer Rock Park shuttles thru to Euclid like they did before the C ran to Euclid on the weekends.
I finally got to see this film, mainly because of the glowing endorsements from posters to this board. I must say that I was hoping for a better view of the triplexes. If I had blinked I probably would have missed them completely. If the producers paid for the train for background scenery, they should have given it a little more screentime. I am sure that I saw the last car of 6019 and then 6095. It would have been nice to have seen a lot more of them.
How about some AB's? Try "Somebody Up There Likes Me", better yet "Naked City". oldies of course.See if you catch a glaring verbal error in Somebody----: the candy-store keeper says take the D train to Kings Highway. To my knowledge Rocky Graziano was in the ring long before the D went to Kings Highway on any line.
Hey, that's right. The picture was made in 1956, but the scene was 1943, the day Rocky (my favorite all time fighter, by the way), the day he met his future wife Norma. At that time the D went nowhere near Kings Highway. Not until late 1954 did it do so.
Hey, that's right. The picture was made in 1956, but the scene was 1943, the day Rocky (my favorite all time fighter, by the way), the day he met his future wife Norma. At that time the D went nowhere near Kings Highway. Not until late 1954 did it do so.
Again you are repeating your self. Are you talking to the sequal of Summer of 42? If so Summer 42 was made in 70, and class was made in 72
06/15/2000
[How about some AB's? Try "Somebody Up There Likes Me"]
Yes, AB #2054 seen entering BMT Chambers St. renamed 14th St for the movie. 14th St. with all those platforms and cathedral ceiling, YIKES !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Maybe the shopkeeper was referring to the Triplexes.
Yes, the Triplex shot is rather brief. It's basically nothing more than a camera pan following the train as it passes by. As I've said earlier, the funny part is the fact that the train is empty, and as it pulls into that elevated express stop (don't know which one), you can see people scurrying along the platform trying to catch it.
I have to admit I was bit disappointed when I first saw that movie for the same reason. It's too bad they couldn't have shot a scene with Benji actually boarding that train.
At around 4PM, I was on a CI bound N, and I saw the train also going to CI on the express track. Anybody know where this train came from and was headed to?
Don't know for sure, but it looks like personnel are testing the Nostalgia Train to make certain that the train is ready to run this coming Sunday. I wish I had been there to see the 1927-28 classics
on the move. I've been on that train numerous times, but somehow I keep coming back for more....
-Stef
On the other hand, it could be that the Brighton train finally got religion and decided it wanted to run on a real line like the Sea Beach. I have never heard of a Sea Beach running on a Brighton line, but the opposite? I've heard of it more than a few times.
Well, as nostalgic as I am, most riders on the Brighton would scream bloody murder seeing Triplexes back in service, especially in the summer ...
There's an easy solution: open the drop sash windows on the storm doors for some nice cross ventilation, especially if they're barrelling along the Brighton express track.
And speaking of the Triplexes, I presume they'll be running 6112 along with 6095. Is 6019 still dying a slow death?
Eh? 6095 is at the Museum. 6019 should have been fixed up. Although the trip is scheduled for 2 units, I can't help but wonder if the 3rd Unit would go out anyway. You'll never know. The train is operating to the Museum and then to Coney. Heck, they may grab her anyway! Pick up passengers and the 3rd Unit and go on your way...
-Stef
6095 WILL NOT be used. It will be 6019 & 6112 only.
The units to be used are 6112 and 6019. 6112 was given a very good body job. (Not a single hole or bulge anywhere on it) As far as 6019......Problems which I cannot discuss prevented the same for her and the difference is noticible. (Still, Both look good in new paint) When they ran yesterday, They ran better than ever! The trips should be great!
Will 6095-A-B-C be repaired and returned to service?
wayne
06/13/2000
[I have never heard of a Sea Beach running on a Brighton line, but the opposite? ]
I don't mean to snow on your parade Fred, but when the D-types ran on the Sea Beach, 3 units were the max. However on the premier Southern Division BMT line, the Brighton, 4 units were the max. And that was a lot of speeding steel!
Bill "Newkirk"
I remember the Sea Beach line with 12 car trains (4 D-type units).
Yes indeed, about 420 tons or so. That's with an empty train. Now, if you take a crush loaded Brighton Express, as was often the case, well, you get the picture. The Manhattan Bridge probably shuddered whenever a train of those monsters made its way across.
I remember in the 50s there was usually 2 trains on the Manny Bridge in each direction at the same time, If a Brighton Triplex was leaving, it was usually followed by a Sea Beach Triplex
06/15/2000
[I remember in the 50s there was usually 2 trains on the Manny Bridge in each direction at the same time, If a Brighton Triplex was leaving, it was usually followed by a Sea Beach Triplex ]
No wonder the Manhattan Bridge steelwork is all "bent out of shape". Those girders must have cried mercy when two consists of D-Types passed!
Bill "Newkirk"
2 in each direction, if not worse 1 AB and ! Triplex, always 3-4 trains on the bridge at one time during rush and peak day hours
I can hear it now: CREAK!! GROAN!! CRACK!! OI VEY!!! And, of course, the Triplexes always ran on the north side.
That's about how I feel after lugging a snare drum around all morning long when I go to my college Homecoming.:-)
Hey Bill: I could use a little snow now. It's over 100 degrees outside and I have to do my run. A little cool would help.
06/15/2000
[Hey Bill: I could use a little snow now. It's over 100 degrees outside and I have to do my run. A little cool would help.]
Well Fred, if you were here right now, the temps have been in the upper 50's at night. Unusually cool for mid June. However, this Sunday when the D-Types run on the "special", the temps should be around 90 !!
Contrary to what I heard on this site, The "D"'s will run totally on the IND except when leaving Church Ave. on the Culver and it's BMT all the way to Stillwell Terminal. I'll be there!
Bill "Newkirk"
I was fortunate once to be videoing at Neptune Ave (F) near the north end where you can see the yard. Coming into the yard from the West End connecting ramp was the R-110A, followed by the D-Types. That was a complete surprise to me and I had no advance notice of it.
One of those "railfan moments", I guess.
--Mark
I'm jealous!:-)
Ken R-68A:
That's hard to believe that they were running a Triplex on the Sea Beach Line. I wonder if tehy're going to use it for a nostalgia special in the near future. That is terrific to found out that one of those trains are running again.
BMTJeff
This Sunday, and two Sundays in July, the D-Types will run again. They will be an IND service, though; going from Columbus Circle to NYCT Museum and down the "F" line (a former BMT route) to Coney Island, and back again.
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40, #4 Sea Beach Fred:
This is a message for #4 Sea Beach Fred:
Your favorite cars will be running next sunday and two Sundays in July.
BMTJeff
Jeff: And I won't be in town until August 16. There is no justice in the world. If I could ride a Triplex Sea Beach #4 again, I think I would drop whatever I'm doing and make a beeline for New York post haste.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I hope that you can ride a Triplex again in the future. Meanwhile there is a picture of a WHITEBIRD on this website at. There is a very good picture of what I think is an R-17 running on the IRT 42 St. shuttle that is painted white. It was a very good target for graffiti.
BMTJeff
I agree, and I will not be back in NYC until November
Then JUST DO IT! Go for it! CARPE DIEM!
Wayne
Hey, Wayne, are you going to be taking pics? I'd love to see them this fall.
When I go, I will. I took a number of photos on October 18, 1998, haven't gotten around to scanning them yet.
I am probably going on the "Middle" trip, i.e. the first of the two July trips. Should be fun. I hope they have the fans working on this trip. Back in '98, a bum fan in 6095C (second fan from the head end) prevented them from operating fans in the entire train.
wayne
We made 8 round trips on the express track from just south of Bay Parkway to just north of 8th Avenue. The train preformed like a champ. Sunday should be interesing.
-Mark
P.S.
You should have seen the looks from the passengers on the stations as the D's came by :-)
That's about what you'd expect from a Triplex. And a 72-year-old one at that!
Probably in better shape then anything newer being used
D-Type Triplex: Indestructible.
wayne
Well, I guess we're all in agreement on that.
So were the BMT standards. It's just that the Triplexes were even-tempered except for those two which caused that sonic boom in 1955. Did you know that one of the Triplex photos in Gotham Turnstiles features one of those two units? It's the 1965 photo of a West End express deadheading along the middle track of the Astoria line. 6043C is heading that consist, and it was originally 6078C. The original 6043C along with 6078A and B were damaged in that collision, and 6078C was grafted onto 6043A amd B and renumbered.
Did they let Mike anywhere near the controls ... probally not even retired management can't do union work :-(
Seriously how many of you got to go along for the TEST ride ?
Mr t__:^)
will someone plese give an idea of whats going on with these lines? thank you much.
Nobody knows. Everything going around are just rumors.
I mean , are they going to keep the Q train on 6 avenue[or keep it PERIOD] or are move it backi to BWAY EXP and replace it with the V line .
There has been no decision yet from NYCT management. There are a lot of NYCT employees here, so when they know, we'll know.
But I'm sure we'll all keep on guessing 'til the time comes. It's kind of like the weather, eh?
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
i guess that will have to do ....... for now. kame' out.
The Q train! Ha, does anyone in their right mind really care what happens to it? Just junk it. It has had so many names and so many routes that if it was human it would be suffering from the biggest hangover yet.
FRED, Fred, fred....... CHILL OUT MAN LOL!!!!!!!!!
FRED, Fred, fred....... CHILL OUT MAN LOL!!!!!!!!!
They must have had another Smog Alert in The Pasadena-Arcadia Area Today. Fred, Fred, As I said, nobody rides the Sea Beach Thru to Coney Island anymore North of 36th St, they all change to the D or B
No smog alert here, but be careful out where you're at that you don't get hit by a big tsunami.
You have a better chance of a Earthquake then we have of a Tsunami
I have earthquake insurance, do you have tsunami insurance? And why are you leaving Hawaii? Are you going to be in the Travel business in Maryland? And when are you going to tell me where I'm staying that last night in Boston? And when are we finally going to touch base?
I will call you on Sat 4pm your time on business, as to staying in Boston, there are nice benchs in South Station(Only kidding) will call you. if not email me when I should call
Hey 777, this is all in fun. I'm having a blast of a time trading barbs with the guys. No harm, no foul, as LA Laker announcer Chick Hearn is fond of saying.
Why don't you just give it up?
All you do is continue to make the same OLD comments about your stupid train and pollute other threads with your Sea Beach drivel.
Give up, it's not amusing anymore.
Pigs: Every time I think you are getting it, you lose it. If you don't like reading my "drivel" then kill file it. You're smart enough to do that, aren't you? Otherwise dry up kid.
I DON'T SEE IT, I DON'T FEATURE IT, NOR TOLERATE IT!
Remove my "Q" train, and the TA will never hear the end of it, especially from me!
Flxible Metro B #3511
Pigs there you go antanogizing people again, A lot of us enjoy Fred, Hey Paul and the silly feuds. If you don t like people say, pass them by. I for one always go into Fred s threads, no matter, what he says, and enjoy it
This is not Pigs, This is Trevor Logan, I changed my screen name because too many people were using the R142 prefix.
Also I was not antagonizing anyone, I was just putting my feelings out about the "Q" Line. I really believe a apology is in order. I'm quite insulted!
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
You don't need an apology from them. They're just little babies with their petty fights about which transit line is better, and then they make believe it's all in good fun and that they're friends.
What's worse is that by aligning themselves with a particular transit line, they make them look bad. If I was a transit line, I wouldn't want one of those bozos to be my spokesman. Especially since they live out of town and hardly ever ride it.
Now we're bozos. Listen, I've said it before and I'll say it again. We have fun on this line. We are NOT trying to hurt anyone. The fact is I've met many fine colleagues on this website and I'm having the time of my life trading barbs. I've even made peace with Salaam. So I don't know why you are getting so overwrought. We have emotional feelings for our favorite trains and we defend them. Does that sound so hard to understand?
He is still a kid and needs tyo grow up. He forgets that people are older then him on this thread, more experienced. Just because we live out of town we don t know what we are talking about., Remember we rode the subway way before he was alive, or even knew what the subway was. I come to NY at least once a year because I still have family in the Metro area, and when I move back to the East Coast next year, I will be there more often. I have ridden every ype of Subway car that the TA has had in service over the last 50 plus years, except the R110 and R110A, and do know what I am talking about
All you can contribute here is your dumb ageism.
Ageism is the refuge of the adult with nothing to say. I would have been a lot better off keeping my age secret like some people here.
Age shouldn't be a big deal here, my sister is 5 and can tell you what model subway car is on each line and who built it, so age is not a factor here and shouldn't be!
Pigs: Don't let them rag on you about your age. PLEASE!
Flxible Metro B #3511
Just tell the Teeny Bopper to show respect, if he knows what it is
You know what I will, but it's comments like that is what sparks arguments here, you could've just said "Tell Pigs", and then everyone wants to know why certain people get hostile or aggitated.
Flxible Metro B #3511
If anyone should be getting hostile, it's me. BUT I DON'T. You know why? Because this is fun. There is no reason to get hostile. Pigs seems to always find fault with the rest of us. Who knows why?
Ok! No problem, it's just getting old with the back and forth bickering. I have no problems with anyone here! One Love!
Pieces!
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
I understand
Pigs: You keep putting your foot in your mouth. From my vantage point, you seem to be acting out a miserable existence, while Bob and I, and, for that matter, Steve 8AVEXP, Newkirk, Q, BMT Doug, etc, are having a great time panning one another and defending our turf. Let
us keep having our fun, and if you can't join in, then, PLEASE, butt out.
You can "play" through e-mail.
We don't need to wade through your shit.
You're the one who's doing the antagonizing. If this is a friendship, you need to both have your heads checked.
Hey Brighton Beach Bob, get a load of this toad. Isn't he getting kind of sickening. And don't use the S word. It's uncouth.
What happened, Pigs, did you get stuck on a non-A/C'd Slant on the wobbling Manhattan Bridge to-day? You seem to be in an unusally crusty mood... I'm glad I don't let these tempests-in-a-tea-pot rub off on ME. Nothing can kill my eternal good mood...:o)
One small favor, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM THE FOUR LETTER WORDS. If you MUST use one, treat it as an [expletive] or use an emoticon.
wayne
Maybe he encountered a sick passenger on an R-33S.:-)
I hear ya! Maybe all THAT plus the Axiflo fans didn't work and there was no A/C in the rest of the train. Notice how he didn't answer the post.
wayne
Good show. Now you know how I feel about my Sea Beach.
Exactly! Leave something alone that is already great!
Flxible Metro B #3511
The "Q" train, home of the Slant R40. Don't take it out of service, EXPAND its service to weekends, and up to 11PM weekdays.
wayne
Amen. I was thinking that the 63rd Street connector just might give that result.
Quiet you. You know the original home of the R40s was the IND "A" and then "B". You stole our cars. Damn you.
relax those lines got better cars
better cars?!?! R68As compared to R40 Slants? please...you probably loved they day the R10s retired as well and the 68s came online...ick
I actually MISS the R-10s, with all those awesome noises... I also miss the R-6 thru R-9 cars, with even BETTER noises. I'll get my fix of those sounds when I ride the D-Types in July.
So when are they going to put a railfan train of R-1/thru R-9 types together? Do they have enough steel to do it?
wayne
i dont know if we have the hardware. I know we have a R1 #100 and R4 #484 at the TA Museum, a few other R-types in Coney...could put together at least a 6 car unit....ahhh :)
Of course, there's always #1575 - she can MU with the other R-types even though she looks like an R10.
Whatever R-1 thru R-9 equipment is still at CI should be guarded, no matter what shape it's in. It is still a shame about R-6-2 #1208's being scrapped.
wayne
The R1/9s are the ugliest subway cars ever made. Preserving #100 is quite enough, thank you. The Triplexes and Standards are quite another story. I don't find that much difference among today's B Division equipment, but I prefer the R68As because of their comfort and quietness.
I share Wayne's feeling about both of those car classes. Nothing will top the R-10s on the A.
Au contraire.
The slant R-40s debuted on the E and F lines in 1968. The slants then took over for the immortal R-10s on the A in October of 1977, and while they were a worthy successor, the A was never the same again.
Like the R-10s, the slants deserve an express assignment, given their quickness.
I second (and third) Wayne's motion wholeheartedly.
They may have begun life on the F, but they are best know for the time spent on the IND A, and afterwards the B. When the R40S came back from GOH, they were put FIRSTLY on the West End "B". I have a photo with David Gunn at the ceremoney at Whitehall Street Staion in 1987.
Memories.
The R40/40M began service on the F line in 1967[with the Mod R40S coming almost a year later]. These cars served thr Queen Blvd lines for almost 10 years until the R46 appeared. After that, the cars where transferd to the 8 avenue line[A] where they stayed until they were replaced by the R38S and R44S. The R40S then went over to the BMT lines[B/N/QB/D/RR and wherever else they were need,such as the M and L lines before G.O.H. After GOH, the cars were placed in service on the B line, where they remained for some time. The cars are now seen on the Q/L and N lines.
The 4400-series Slants went to the "L" right after GOH and have stayed there, being joined by 30 of the 4300-series cars earlier this year.
The rest of them (#4150 thru #43xx) are out of Coney Island and serve the "Q" and "N" lines. They moved from the "B" in the fall of 1997.
There's still one or two sets of Slants still running on the "B" - but only on the weekends.
wayne
The Coney Island cars are 4150-4369.
David
WAY before the R40S went GOH, we had R40S on the "B". I never once remember a pre GOH R40S on any other southern division BMT except the "B".
The cars were not a total picture of IND Jamaica, The first few batches of R44s were shopped out of Jamaica on the "E", then the "F".
Back then (this being 1973 or so) you had a real potpourri on the "E" and "F": R-6s (all three kinds) and R-7s, Slant R40s (both A/C and Non A/C), R40Ms and R44s (only on the "F") all made their appearances, with R16s and R38s thrown in for good measure on the "EE" and "GG".
The Queens IND was a lot of fun back then. But keeping the yard and shoppe inventory straight must have been a nightmare.
wayne
In 1985 when the Manhattan Bridge G.O. began,the R40 and R40M cars were placed on the BMT Southern Division lines[B/D/N/QB/RR and sometimes M].Once and awhile, they were even usesd on the RR Nassau/Chambers rush hour specials.
They may have begun the TA life on the E and F, but soon made home on the IND A, and then B. In fact, when the R40S went GOH, the first assignment coming back was on the B. I have pictures from the 1987 ceremoney where they made the run from the Whitehall Street BMT station to Coney Island. I just wish they would have kept the larger window panes on the end doors and the side doors....:(
The windows on end storm doors on ALL regular R40 (and on the "B" ends of R40M) are elongated, as they originally were. The doors were replaced during GOH and may have acquired a standard-sized window in the process. It would have been sacrilege to install any other windows in the storm doors of the R40. What irks me is why the hell couldn't they put grab irons between the B ends during GOH - they fixed everything else...
Slants - so ugly you just GOTTA love 'em.
wayne
I was referring to the "A" doors, the motorman's end. I used to love the lower windows, gave a short kid (at the time) like me a motorman's view of the ROW....now short kids wont get that chance...:(
Here, isn't the window the same length as it was originally? If the image is too small, you can click in it to see the whole thing.
Post-GOH R40 #4437 at Sutter Avenue, 22 June 1998
NOT! The ORIGINAL ORIGINAL home of the Slant R40s was the "F" line in 1968, then the "E" in spring 1969.
wayne
Hey Trevor,whats the deal about the Q LINE? It uses old R40 cars,its part time and its realy the D train. by the way , I think the D train should be the brighton Exp again like the old days and the Q replaced by a Nassau street line [ like the J]or a broadway train like the new W LINE. On 6 ave. it could be replaced by the 6 ave Broadway/Brooklyn line from Jamaica or Canarsie. So,as I said before, what the big deal about the Q?
I like the BRIGHTON LINE before 1985 when there was a NASSAU STREET LINE service running over there.I happen to like the QJ/J and M lines when they were going to Coney Island. it was easier for us to get there from the easter division lines. So you can understand my feelings for the J/M and Z lines. IF i had my way, the Q would be on BWAY,the J/q would be BRIGHTON EXP/LOCAL and the K would be back on 6 AVENUE. its just a wish, after all.
The Q was the original marker when the BMT went from numbers to letters. So for almost 40 years, the Q and Brighton has been together, Q-QB-QJ-QT
As a result of Sunday night's rainout, there is a unique railfan/baseball fan opportunity...
On Saturday, July 8th the Mets and Yanks will play a 1:00 game at Shea (the regularly scheduled game), followed by an 8:00 game at Yankee Stadium (to make up Sunday's game). No word on what happens if the early game goes into extra innings...
We've finally got the true Subway Series -- all in one day!!
Chuck
It was kind of interesting to see two redbirds, one a Flushing Redbird, the other a Woodlawn redbird, in front of Shea and Yankee Stadiums respectively. Did anyone else see the article?
Can someone advise of the location of the new Seipta Station ,,I need the Mile post location
THank you
Steve Lowenthal
Do you mean Churchman's Crossing in Delaware?
Does anyone know if I can volunteer at some yard to help restore old cars or something over the summer? If so, e-mail me.
-Daniel
iostream@redconnect.net
check the Branford Trolley Museum in New Haven
On Wednesday morning, at about 0700 hours, at Burnside Ave they'll start shooting a movie, or a TV show, not sure which one. It should take most of the day and be shot between Burnside and 161st St.on Jerome Ave. Don't know what kind of equipment, but it will be coming out of 239th St. yard.
Last weekend I took a trip to NYC, and got to ride some of the subways. Here are some of the things I have to say:
1. Being a user of E. 28th Street on a Saturday, I noticed that at the southbound platform, the turnstiles were closed, and subway patrons had to enter through the revolving door, yet there still may have been a station agent. What is the point of this practice? Where is the cost savings/convienience for the MTA here?
2. I visited Broadway's 125th Street Station, and was surprised at how high it is. I had expected it to be one of the lowest elevated stations due to the fact that the train doesn't actually go up much to get onto the el, but it seemed pretty high to me. Does anyone have the actual facts on this, on its actual height, and if it is one of the 5 highest in the system?
3. If the R-62(A?)s that operate on the 1 train have transverse cabs, why were they running 2PTO?
4. R-32s run on the C, and R-44s or R-46s run on the E and F, right?
The agent was probably about to go off-duty and working on change and whatever they have to do when they finish.
The train stays level, it's the ground that changes!
Transverse cabs are going to be there whether they run OPTO or not. Assuming they switch to OPTO, they're not going to change cabs.
The cabs give the operator more space and are mainly for the conductor. No annoying car changes.
R-32s run on the E too, but sometimes they use R-46s, not R-44s. The F is all R-46
Thanks.
About more operator space, I think that the non transverse cabs on the M-4s are not that small, compared to the cabs on some pre-transverse cabs NYC cars.
A few questions:
1) When LIRR MUs release air from the brake cylinders, it only seems to come out from the back of the train.
2) The Deleware River Port Authority PATCO system, all cabs are open. Its only covered by a plastic cover when not in use. The Zero Person Train Operation mode is great. All the operators have to do is open the doors. Great railfan windoes too. On the left side on the console there is what seems to be a white lever. Anyone know what that does?
3) The SEPTA R7 line to trenton seems to have stops at locations at very remote locations. Does this line serve mainly rural and industrial areas.
I wouldn't imagine that the R7 serves rural areas, though some of the stations look like they do. Bridesburg, Wissonoming, Holmesburg (formerly Jct.) are but 3 stations inside the city limits that look like they could be from rural areas. And Levittown, Bristol or CWH could by no means be considered rural areas, they are suburbs.
I forgot to mention seeing one of those Chinese vendor guys -- you know, the guys who yell "one dollar, one dollar" -- hawking their batteries, toy beepers and whatnot on board an uptown A train (R-46 cars).
Nothing unusal about that, except what I saw him do once he made it to the blind end where I was seated: out of his pocket he pulls a KEY TO THE DOOR and walks outside (and flips the emergency release on the storm door of the next car).
Now, where the heck did this guy (who could barely speak English) get a set of keys to the R-46 class of cars, pray tell?
Doug aka BMTman
This was mentioned before... It is known that he has a key, but noboday knows from where. It was probably given to him by the maintenance guy who has to fix the doors that are jimmied open.
A couple of weeks ago, again on the 8th ave line, one youth pried open a blind end door by lifting and jerking quickly. This allowed his compatriot to stand between to cars and, under the cover of youth#1 blocking the door glass, to pee. I couldn't believe it at first, but the satisfied sigh said it all.
Classy.
A couple of weeks ago, again on the 8th ave line, one youth pried open a blind end door by lifting and jerking quickly. This allowed his compatriot to stand between to cars and, under the cover of youth#1 blocking the door glass, to pee. I couldn't believe it at first, but the satisfied sigh said it all.
Isn't there a risk that the youth can be shocked by the voltage if the urine makes contact with the third rail? My high school teacher once told me that, and I myself have seen men in between cars urinating, last being on my own line when it was parked in Times Square.
which reminds me of the oriental woman who
climbed upwards (from the trackbed) adjusting
her pants (with an unmistakeable odor trailing
her) a mere half-breath before a r62 (3)
came barrelling into the station sending her
odor airborne.. half-breath i say.
Wow! I thought oriental women had manners! She must've been one of those "trashy" ones I see every once in a while.
You're constantly complaining about society's troubles and saying that they do not apply to Asians.
How is that not racist?
Pigs: I don't think it was racist, but it could be construed as something done in not the best of taste.
Usually racism is dislike towards a particular race or races.
This is the opposite. Doesn't make it much better.
[This is the opposite]. COuld it be that John is one of those men who fetishize Asian women? They are out there.
During my sabatical in southeast asia about 35 years ago, I received an education about the differences of cultures.
One had to do with natural body functions when away from home.
It was considered correct and acceptable to releave either call to nature on the side of the road in open veiw . The impolite thing to do was watch, ogle and make remarks or call out to you friends to come and watch.
Did the person seem or appear to be homeless? Drunk? A working girl?
avid
This should be in the FAQ section!
There are documented cases of serious injury or death from
peeing on the third rail. All of the ones I've heard about
involve the person standing still. From a moving train I'd
theorize the risk would be smaller. Of course, this all depends
on the individual's angle of attack, flow rate and body chemistry.
Years ago, I remember reading that the City Morgue at NYU Medical Center had a forensic museum. One of the exhibits was the burned remains of a bum who relieved himself on the third rail.
That is true. I saw this at the Medical Examiner's Museum at First Ave. and East 30th Street, where they display the results of unusual causes of death in New York City. The man was electrocuted because he relieved himself on the third rail. 600 volts is no joke.
Today at Van Cortlandt, I see a fella
go between cars and do his business..
thinking about this thread, I watch
and wait to see a (roast)... NYCTA
Personnel walk by, see him, say nothing..
Wham-O! no roast, folks.
So much for hype.
If nothing else wear gloves if you're holding on to something metal (like the carbody!) and make sure no nails stick out of your shoes. Then you won't be grounded.
If the gloves aren't enough to insulate 600 volts, it won't count. THe shoes AND the gloves would have to be tested at 600 volts. Very unlikely that anyone would carry around bulky insulated gloves just to take a leak off the IRT. Latex just wouldn't cut it.
Wouldn't you avoid all of this by just knowing which side the third rail is on and NOT urinating on that side?
[There are documented cases of serious injury or death from
peeing on the third rail. All of the ones I've heard about
involve the person standing still. From a moving train I'd theorize the risk would be smaller. Of course, this all depends on the individual's angle of attack, flow rate and body chemistry.]
My Urban Legend Detector is flashing a yellow* caution light. There is in fact only one documented case of an electrocution occurring in this manner, involving an intoxicated man on the Chicago el. And there's still some doubt about the precise circumstances of his mishap.
* = a not inappropriate color, given the subject matter.
> My Urban Legend Detector is flashing a yellow* caution light.
> There is in fact only one documented case of an electrocution
> occurring in this manner, involving an intoxicated man on the
> Chicago el. And there's still some doubt about the precise
> circumstances of his mishap.
Ah, yes, the unfortunate Mr. Lee. For a detailed discussion of the case, see the alt.folklore.urban archives at:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/peeing_on_third_rail.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
There was a story concerning an even sillier lawsuit that was reprinted in several newspapers a few years ago:
Supposedly, two "mole people" were having sex on the tracks in an IRT tunnel near Grand Central. Apparently, they got up in time to avoid being killed, but one of the parties got clipped by the train. Then they sued the MTA for negligance.
Truth or urban legend?
I think it was in the BMT tunnels by Canal St. going toward the Manhattan Br. They thought the tracks werent being used.
Boy,what next? deafacation?
They do that all the time on the #2 train. :o>
wayne
Oh, please..... Don't even go there.
I would think that it would be pretty hard to kill yourself by peeing on a 3rd rail. The majority of the population (and virtually all TV and Film writers) have no clue how electricity works. They fail to realize that electricity will go from hi potential to low potential and you will only get zapped if that path happens to be along your body. Not only do you have to make contact with the 3rd rail, you also have to make contace with a region of low potential differance. Since post people wear shoes with rubber soles this takes some effort. To kill yourself you would need to be bafefoot, olding onto something trackside (not likley when you are peeing), have soaking wet shoes or shoes with big holes.
Of course this is one of those issues that no one wants to settle
empirically, for obvious reasons.
If you are standing between cars there's a good chance you are
holding on to something, which is metal and grounded. Second,
don't make the mistake of assuming that rubber-soled shoes are
perfect insulators. They have a certain conductance which of course
varies with the material and how moist they are. The problem
with urination electrocution is the fairly low-resistance path
directly into the body. That takes away a bunch of resistance
which would otherwise be provided by the skin. Since the path
would not be across the chest if one were not holding on to anything,
such contact would probably not be fatal, but would certainly be
noticeable.
Jeff, sounds like you know this from experience?? :-)
One of the funniest and best written accounts of this is my the late E.J. Quinby (an E.R.A. founder) in his delightful book on the North Jersey Rapid Transit (Carstens). Only Jay could describe such an incident so masterfully! If you get a chance to read that short chapter (it's easy to find in the index) it will be well worth your while.
But on the old LIRR cars, you used to be able to see the tracks as there was nothing stopping waste material from going directly to the roadbed years ago!! And you'd be standing in a puddle of pee inside the toilet from previous users, so you'd be grounded pretty well!
It's true from a moving train the risks would be much smaller, as the flow of liquid would be broken into splatter by the action of the air currents swirling and passing by the outside of the car or the curvature of the car, as well as the movement of the car. And air is a very excellent insulator. Also take into account the fact that third rails do have coverboards (I realize that in NYC this is not ALWAYS true, but certainly generally true).
Also, the conductivity will vary depending on the content of the urine itself. Distilled water (no impurities) is an extremely poor conductor; add mineral content (such as salt or potassium or such) and the conductivity jumps correspondingly to the percentage in solution.
Comparatively speaking, the running rails are used as a source of traction power return (read negative side) but not earth gound, and the car body itself is generally tied to this point. There is theorhetically small potential difference between earth ground and this negative return side, too small to notice when boarding - remember the motors aren't doing anything while the train is stopped, and traction currents are at their lowest. So anyone standing on a car floor is definitely on a plane that is very significantly at a potential difference great enough to cause current to flow if a resistance is established that is low enough. Rated insulated soles and gloves would prevent the shock, but if you have a nail or some rock or a pin poking through that sole, or nails in new rubber heels, you have a path for a breach; more so if it is wet.
There's a formula P = IE ; power is equal to current times voltage
which is the same as P = I squared R
where P = Power in watts, I = current, E = voltage, R = resistance
here the voltage is 600 volts, but the AVAILABLE current is what the traction power substation can provide to that section of rail, and is I'm sure well over 1K Amps (think of a ten car train in accelleration), the resistance is going to be the cumulative resistance of the contact with the car floor, the body resistance, and the resistance in the urine flow.
As with any electrical application, as the resistance decreases, the current able to flow will increase, until ideally at 0 ohms, the total amount of current available will flow.
Remember, you can have 1 million volts pass through you at a nanoamp without a problem, but it takes little voltage at not really that high of a amperage (depending on where it enters the body) to knock you away or kill you.
It just amazes me how disgusting some people who ride the subway are.
Either more police officers or hidden cameras should be installed to fine anyone who urinates in the subway.
Is urinating in the subway a problem in other cities?
What do you expect?
Until the TA opens more bathrooms, they should clean up the mess. Sometimes it's impossibe to hold it in and someone should have health problems because of the TA's negligence.
Opening more restrooms in the subway isn't necessarily a solution to this problem. I have seen people doing their business on the platform (or on the roadbed!) in stations that have restrooms.
David
Then we can lock them up.
If the TA wants to be low on toilets, they should at least use the map to show where they are inside fare control!
The only station I know of is 71/Continental. I think Euclid as well, but definitely not sure.
What amazes me with the ALLEDGED surplus of funds why more public restrooms haven't been opend in NYCTA stations? There is glut of WORK EXPERIENCE PROGRAM cleaners working in terminals.. why not have these same cleaners be expanded to clean station restrooms? lets face it these will be the people replacing STA dept cleaners in the not too distant future..
That's just it...the surplus is alleged, not real. It's been explained here before. Using hypothetical numbers: If NYCT budgets a $300 million deficit for 2000, and at the end of the year has only a $200 million deficit, the politicians, Straphangers' Campaign, etc. will scream about a $100 million SURPLUS!
David
Now at last I know what the Brighton Line is good for.
[Isn't there a risk that the youth can be shocked by the voltage if the urine makes contact with the third rail? My high school teacher once told me that, and I myself have seen men in between cars urinating, last being on my own line when it was parked in Times Square.]
If he got zapped, he'd probably sue the MTA claiming their negligence had cost him his member . . .
[If he got zapped, he'd probably sue the MTA claiming their negligence had cost him his member . . . ]
Chances are he would lose more than just his member....likely not be able to hail a lawyer to sue either...
:-O
Hey, there are always the relatives.
There is a Beastie Boys song from their "Paul's Boutique" Album where they brag that "I got nothin' to do, so I'm pissin' on the third rail". Since the Beasties were just fare-evading punks before they became rock stars, it sounds like they survived it. Also another thing:
In the same song they talk of "Riding the D train down to El Bario". Now, is El Bario slang for some station on the Brighton Line?
[In the same song they talk of "Riding the D train down to El Bario". Now, is El Bario slang for some station on the Brighton Line?]
El Barrio (two r's) is a colloquial term for East Harlem. Needless to say, the D doesn't go there.
"V" does!
Via 63rd street.
Arti
no, but it comes close... it does stop at 125th and 6th doesn't it?
>>>no, but it comes close... it does stop at 125th and 6th doesn't it?<<<
The "D" stops at 125th and 8th.
Peace,
ANDEE
125th and Santa Claus Avenue.
You're right it is St Nicholas. I was thinking of 155th and 8th.
Peace,
ANDEE
It's not 8th Avenue anymore, it's Frederick Douglass Boulevard. The name change makes sense, it's not linked with the rest of 8th Avenue anyway.
At least it's not as bad as 7th Avenue: Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard (I just call it Powell or Powell Blvd).
Now, to do something about 9th and 10th Avenues in Inwood...
okay wait have ALL the avenues been renamed?
Not 5th Avenue and the east side ones, they're connected to their lower portions.
The following streets/avenues have had their names changed in the last 125 years:
9th Avenue
Columbus Avenue, Morningside Drive, Morningside Avenue, Convent Avenue, 9th Avenue
10th Avenue
Amsterdam Avenue, 10th Avenue
11th Avenue
West End Avenue, Broadway, St. Nicholas Avenue, 11th Avenue
8th Avenue
Central Park West, Douglass Boulevard, 8th Avenue
7th Avenue
Powell Boulevard, 7th Avenue
6th Avenue
Avenue of the Americas/6th Avenue, Lenox Avenue/Malcolm X Boulevard
4th Avenue
Park Avenue, Park Avenue South, 4th Avenue
Avenue A
York Avenue, Avenue A
The Boulevard
Broadway
Boulevard Lafayette
Broadway, Morgan Place, Riverside Drive
Riverside Avenue
Riverside Drive
Kingsbridge Road
Broadway, St. Nicholas Avenue, Manhattan Avenue
St. Nicholas Avenue
Hancock Street, St. Nicholas Avenue
Wasn't Lafayette St. originally known as Elm or New Elm St? It wasn't Lafayette when the original IRT opened.
I wasn't going as far as downtown. Elm Street ran from the Commons to Kenmare Square at Spring Street until after the Brooklyn Bridge was opened. To improve traffic flow, New Elm Street was built to connect it to the dead-end Lafayette Place which ended just south of Astor Place. When the subway was built, a connection was built between Centre Street and Elm Street, allowing northbound Centre traffic to turn away at Duane and merge with Elm at Worth, the subway travelled beneath this. Shortly after it was opened, the whole road it travelled under, from Duane Street to Cooper Square was unified under the Lafayette name, leaving a short stub of Elm. In 1943 it was renamed Elk after the Fraternal order of Elks, the names were similar enough and the street was now reduced to a back alley off of Lafayette. In the 1970s, Elk was reduced to it's present day 2 block side street status by the construction of the Federal Building at 26 Duane (26 Federal Plaza).
The best resource for removed and renamed streets is: Forgotten NY (The Street Necrology).
I like that.
Any such lawyer would probably laugh so hard he'd wet his own pants.
Onto the third rail?!?! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If he got "zapped" he wouldn't be the one suing. He'd be pushing up daisies somewhere. It's not like touching your tongue to the terminals on one of those little 9v transistor radio batteries....
Now that's an interesting question. Seems to me that if the path to ground was through his leg, he might survive.
I remember hearing about a similar case in Chicago:
A guy walked onto an at-grade right-of-way, relieved himself on the third rail, and got zapped - fatally, of course. His family then sued, claiming that CTA was negligent in not posting warning signs in Chinese!! Go figure.
Could one (or more) of the Chicagoans in this group help confirm/deny/clarify this?
I'm not sure of the exact current needed to receive a fatal electrical shock but let's look at the numbers. In order for a shock (DC Current) to occur you need a source which in this case is the 3rd rail (let's say the 750 volts). You need a good ground, let's say the subway car you are standing on (An excellent ground if not perfect). And you need a friendly pathway for the current to travel - one preferably that takes the current across the heart or brain. For argument sake, let's assume that the current needed to be fatal, across the heart is 1 milliamp (actually, I think it's higher). According to Ohm's Law R = E / I where E is the voltage (750 volts) and I is the current (0.001 Amps). Okay, so we seem to have settled on roughly 750,000 ohms of resistance - a fairly sizable number. Here's where we have to take a few things on faith. I used a Simpson 260 and measured the resistance of my body from finger tip to finger tip and came up with about 400,000 ohms. This will vary widely between individuals and things like perspiration. Let's also assume that the stream of bodily fluid being excreted to the 3rd rail is a perfect conductor (it isn't). Oh, the resistance of my shoes measured at infinity. Now the current path:
Urine stream = 0 Ohms
Right hand-across heart-down torso-down leg = 400,000 ohms
Shoes = infinity
Subway car ground = 0 Ohms
So we can see that there is no path for the current to follow. However, there are variables:
Are you holding onto a grounded hand-hold? That takes the shoes out of the path along with several body parts - shortens the path.
Did any of the offending stream irrigate the offender's shoes during the initial seconds or final seconds of the offending act? That will redically reduce the dielectric factor of the shoes.
What if the person is standing on ballast instead of the subway car? That would increase the resistance of the current path but if the ground were wet or had salt applied or what-not, the path resistance can be altered radically.
Conclusions: You would need to work at it but I suppose that you can fry yourself if you urinate on a 3rd rail. Hence two warnings:
Wear shoes and keep them dry (if you know what I mean)
Wear latex gloves (especially if you are going to touch the hand-rail).
Do not switch hands during the offending act.
I heard tell years ago that bums *do* zap themselves by peeing on the 3rd rail. Seems the Times wasn't sure whether they should print the stories or not . . .
Perhaps they have holes in their shoes...
I'm not sure of the exact current needed to receive a fatal electrical shock but let's look at the numbers. In order for a shock (DC Current) to occur you need a source which in this case is the 3rd rail (let's say the 750 volts). You need a good ground, let's say the subway car you are standing on (An excellent ground if not perfect). And you need a friendly pathway for the current to travel - one preferably that takes the current across the heart or brain. For argument sake, let's assume that the current needed to be fatal, across the heart is 1 milliamp (actually, I think it's higher). According to Ohm's Law R = E / I where E is the voltage (750 volts) and I is the current (0.001 Amps). Okay, so we seem to have settled on roughly 750,000 ohms of resistance - a fairly sizable number. Here's where we have to take a few things on faith. I used a Simpson 260 and measured the resistance of my body from finger tip to finger tip and came up with about 400,000 ohms. This will vary widely between individuals and things like perspiration. Let's also assume that the stream of bodily fluid being excreted to the 3rd rail is a perfect conductor (it isn't). Oh, the resistance of my shoes measured at infinity. Now the current path:
Urine stream = 0 Ohms
Right hand-across heart-down torso-down leg = 400,000 ohms
Shoes = infinity
Subway car ground = 0 Ohms
So we can see that there is no path for the current to follow. However, there are variables:
Are you holding onto a grounded hand-hold? That takes the shoes out of the path along with several body parts - shortens the path.
Did any of the offending stream irrigate the offender's shoes during the initial seconds or final seconds of the offending act? That will redically reduce the dielectric factor of the shoes.
What if the person is standing on ballast instead of the subway car? That would increase the resistance of the current path but if the ground were wet or had salt applied or what-not, the path resistance can be altered radically.
Conclusions: You would need to work at it but I suppose that you can fry yourself if you urinate on a 3rd rail. Hence three warnings:
Wear shoes and keep them dry (if you know what I mean)
Wear latex gloves (especially if you are going to touch the hand-rail).
Do not switch hands during the offending act.
As I posted a few days ago, there's a detailed discussion of the facts and legal issues in the _Lee_ case in the alt.folklore.urban newsgroup's archives, at:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/death/peeing_on_third_rail.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
I remember a guy relieving himself off the platform end at 9th St. on the PATH. I have recently dicovered that there is a piece of UNCOVERED third rail hidden under the platform edge. It's easy not to notice, but such a mistake would really hurt.
(This refers not only to bodily functions)
Maybe we should place an electrified grid on the streets to discourage this sort of thing . . .
Being a very frequent rider on the "A" train , I have watched the same crew of hawkers use a small screwdriver with a small bend ant the end to form a hook , slide it below the handle area where the rubber door gasket has been vandalisly cut away. Perhaps Train Dude could fabricate a small thin shield or strob lite to simulate picture taking?
avid... as a card carrying limousine liberal, as well as someone who is subject to constant satellite surveillance, i must strenuously object to any further attempts to invade my privacy... please free me from the fear that i am being recorded when i pick my nose or adjust my underwear in public... if you put the surveillance cameras in the hands of train dude, there will be no stopping his campaign to discredit me from claiming that i am the model well balanced railfan that i am...
Please you miss read my post. I only advocate stobes to simulate picture taking. I would much rather spy by watch T.V. Bloopers from the cutting room floor. There candid shots of you checking telephone coin return slots was out of this world!
BTW how much did you get?
avid
i did not misread your post, i saw right through it to your plans to embarrass me... you just gave yourself away by revealing the candid shots of my fingering telephone coin slots... i check the slots not in search of money, but out of frustration... earlier in my life, a course in organic chemistry kept me from entering medical school and achieving my life long dream of becoming a proctologist...
I've had a Telephone repairman salt a coin slot with a new brass buck from the inside, but it is too big to be removed, wait til you see a crowd around a phone with a monkey with his fist stuck inside.
its at one of the 34th St stations. Good hunting.
avid
Paul, I think I've been quite charitable given our rocky beginnings. I admire your R-9 bedroom (from afar) although I'm afrain I'd find the wicker beadspread a bit kinky for my old bones. You can take some solace in the fact that I oppose video surveillance. Some of my employees get into enough trouble without it.
I hear he has a set of bottle-nosed GE fans, complete with wavy blades (salvaged from such erstwhile R-6-2s as #1208, #1233 and #1277) too!
wayne
I'm surprised heypaul doesn't have a signbox from one of those cars. Or maybe he does....
Mine is currently signed up for a CC.
[avid... as a card carrying limousine liberal...]
Heypaul, what kind of limosuinne would that be? A Mercedes? A Lincoln Town car?
I could never be a limosuine liberal with what I drive down the roads of NYC...
...my car would be more at home in "Jurassic Park."
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
The clue here is "Jurassic Park"
In rent months a glut of stretch, white, GM, Suburbans has been spotted, and just yesterday on the Belt Pkway heading towards Brooklyn, a Hummer centiped (five doors on each side) was observed. All vehicles had the obligatory darkend windows. The same darkened windows favored by the B M T of old. (before car wash)
You gave your self up, don't try to cofuse the issue with facts. Rumor and enuendo plus outdated coupons wedged between seat cushions say it all.
avid
I thought it was a Schwinn.:-)
the model well balanced railfan that i am...
Heypaul: Much as I respect your opinions don't you think that well-balanced and railfan are mutually exclusive terms.
Larry,RrebirdR33
larry asked if being a railfan and being well balanced are mutually exclusive?... i think even a casual reading of most posts on subtalk leaves little doubt about the poor state of mental health of most railfans... :-)
heypaul is right.
All of you are as crazy as jaybirds except ME!
;-)
larry asked if being a railfan and being well balanced are mutually exclusive?... i think even a casual reading of most posts on subtalk leaves little doubt about the poor state of mental health of most railfans... :-)
That is while all railfan trips on the LIRR include a mandatory stop at the Creedmoor siding. One way tickets are sold.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One of the NY food for the homeless guys who patrols the E line has a key to the door.
Here's to our beloved REDS:
Redbirds at SHEA & YANKEE STADIUM
What are you gonna do when the Redbirds are just a memory - and that day is coming. Sooner than you think we will be talking about redbirds like we talk about Low-V's, R1's, BU's, D Types, Standards, BMT, IND and IND right now.
What about the IRT and IRT? :-)
I got dip, Dan.
Before 1957, New York had subway series several times a season plus many World Series between the Yankees and the Giants or Dodgers. There were no Redbirds back then. So why ain't it a Subway series without the Redbirds? It was for so many years. And anyway the Mets and Yankees won't be taking the Redbirds from Shea to Yankee Stadium. They'll be travelling on their team buses.
>>...Mets and Yankees won't be taking the Redbirds from Shea to Yankee Stadium...They'll be travelling on their team buses.
A complete no-sell.
The reference "Ain't a SUBWAY series.. without the REDBIRDS!!!"
was meant to refer to the Redbirds ominous appearance
in BOTH images.. subway series.. if I were to attend those
games, bet the bottom dollar I'd take a redbird from
Shea to Yawnkee Stadium.
Enough, enough.
So I change all my plans for an "0" gauge simulation of favorite locatios and with the help of the "Time R/9 cab" instantly create the connection between the CPW layup via a flyunder beneath the Park. This breakneck shortcut then heads towards the devide just north of 59th St. There instead of continuing south on the B'Way local tracks we head east to the 60th St. tunnel. As we climb to the azure sky above the excitement is building. The fan window of the R/40 slant is witness to elbowing and overt body language.We force the diamond east of Queensboro Plaza and take up the EXPRESS track . Now we are non-stop flying thru the express stations that have had their platforms cut back to allow for the recent capture of the Flushing line east of Queensboro Plaza. Now BIGGER IS BETTER , and the skimpy R/142s will service the Teensy Weensy Astoria branch.
As we approach Walletspoint the frenzied subtalkes crowd the doors in anticapation as the T.O. lets loose a series of blasts announcing our arrival.
Let the games begin!
Whoa to the wrong fan on the return trip for the evenings combat!
I need a Hot dog, hold the onions, heavy on the mustard.
avid
Last Sunday I decided to ride on the Los Angeles Green Line and Blue Line light rail lines for the first time, and found some pleasant surprises.
The rolling stock was quiet while above ground. In fact I would say it was quieter than the inside of most passenger cars driving at 65 mph. Sitting near the front of the first 87' car I could just barely hear the air horn sounding as we approached grade level crossings and might not have realized what it was if I had not been listening for it. There was no problem carrying on a conversation in a normal tone of voice. When the cars went underground for the last ½ mile before the downtown L.A. station, I was surprised at how loud the noise was compared to the surface but it was still less than the sound on Salaam's videos.
The loudest part of the trip was waiting at a Green Line station. The Green Line runs down the center of a freeway and the noise of the cars going by on both sides was deafening. They really should put sound baffling between the roadway and the stations. Other than the noise problem, the stations were well marked, and those which were not at street level all had elevators and most had escalators also. One strange thing is that two of the stations, the Rosa Parks station and the Tom Bradley (Red Line) station have names that do not relate to any near by geographical feature. I know some NYC stations have names for places that used to be and are no longer, but it seems confusing to name a light rail or subway station without regard to anything nearby, no matter how prominent the person for whom the station is named.
The trains had more usage than I expected. At least once on each line there was a situation where some people could not find a seat. (Not sardine time, just a few standees) The capacity of each car is 230 with 150 seated.
The MTA claims trains run every five minutes during weekday prime traveling hours (and I have heard the Blue Line is crowded during commuting time), but because this was Sunday the interval was 15 minutes. The waiting time when changing trains made this less than "rapid" transit. One compensation for railfans was that the Blue Line runs parallel to mainline tracks from the Los Angeles harbor to Downtown Los Angeles, so it was possible to see mainline freights pass through while waiting for your train.
The people riding with me appeared to be those who did not have cars rather than those who chose to ride rather than drive. Several teenagers with bicycles and families with small children were riding. The majority of the riders were either black or Hispanic. I did see two couples headed for the airport with luggage.
The seats were comfortable enough for the anticipated ride of less than one hour, but by the time I finished riding both lines they were starting to get a bit hard.
The seats face the ends of the cars, so half the passengers are riding backward. The train can accelerate from 0-55 mph in 45 seconds. I was sitting in a backward facing seat and started to get up just as the train left a station. I thought for a second I was going to be thrown over the back of the seat in front of me.
In spite of the RANTS !!!!! of others I found the Pico station near enough to the Staples center to be quite convenient. It is two short blocks (one block West, one block North), and most of the riders were taking a diagonal short cut through a nearby parking lot. It appears to be no more of a walk than from the #7 line to Shea Stadium. In fact about 30% of the event parking for private cars is on the other side of the tracks. Since the Staples Center was built after the Blue Line, it is unfair to knock the MTA for how far from the Staples center the station is.
Fares on these lines are by ticket with no turnstile control to the stations. A single ride fare is $1.35 and the ticket is marked with the station where it was purchased and the time it was purchased. It is good for two hours and you must be traveling away from the issuing station. If caught with no ticket or an invalid ticket, the fine is $250.00.
While I was riding there was one fare check just before arriving at the downtown terminal. Everyone in the car I was riding in had a ticket or a pass. The interesting thing was that the fare check was done by an armed Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff in full uniform rather than an MTA employee. Even stranger is the fact that this was in the center of the City of Los Angeles, which is the jurisdiction of the L.A.P.D., not the Sheriff.
In summary, I think what has been implemented has been done very well. The problem is that no matter how well individual stations are built, or how good the rolling stock is, one or two lines does not make a rail system. Los Angeles has the start of a decent rapid transit system, but not the political will to complete it.
Like many complicated things, the sum of the whole is greater than its component parts, and until there is much more completed, the system will not reach its potential and will be under utilized. The under utilization will cause those who are against rapid transit to claim it proves they were correct in saying that rapid transit would not work here and deciding not to complete the system.
BTW, the MTA computer is not programmed by railfans. They have a website with a trip planner included. I input the starting point as a terminal of the Green Line and the destination as the terminal of the Blue Line and expected to be told to take the Green Line, and transfer to the Blue Line. Instead I was advised to leave the station and go to a bus bay and take a bus to within 2 blocks of the Blue Line terminal and change to the local shuttle bus for the final two blocks.
well I found the number nyc -irt # 7 to be much better than the pico station which seems to go out of the way to
be as difficult as possible to reach the LAKERS STADIUM ( stapels center )...which is very difficult & out of the way .....
especially how you have to cross over at bottom of the south with no direct access to the welfare built dome ( stapels )
On the green line my question is still why only ONE CAR TRAINS AT ALL TIMES ??....Also did you note no
access except to this """"G"""" shuttle bus to the airport ( the green line refuses to go to the airport ) ........
But the blue line does get the better grade ( sometimes THREE CAR TRAINS long ) unlike the green ONE CAR TRAIN ONLY...
Also check out the red line free this 24 th ""the subway to bnowhere ""...!!!! Love to hear you comment on that.. !!
Tom, do they have a one-day pass? I had a last-minute change in plans this past March and didn't get into LA but am hoping that I will be able to ride the system this coming March.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I do not think the MTA has a one day pass, you could try their web site, as to the Sheriff rather then LAPD, since the train goes thru many jurisdictions, that is why the Sheriff has the contract. Inspection could be anywhere on the system, so the Sheriff is the best way.
Bob;
I found it unusual that it would be a law enforcement officer rather than a Metro employee that was checking the tickets. Although when I looked at the MTA website this evening I noticed it mentioned showing your ticket to an MTA employee or a police officer. Is that the way (using police officers) it is done in other cities?
I do remember riding the trams in Amsterdam one time when right after the doors closed at the central station and the tram pulled out, four men in plain clothes jumped up and displayed badges and announced that there was a ticket inspection, but I thought they were agents of the tram line rather than police officers.
In St Louis they are employees of the Transit Authority, I do not remember what they were in San Diego. The RTD/MTA in LA changed to the Sheriff after the lines were open only 1 year. Also crime deterent, due to the areas that the Blue Line runs thru most of its route. I have not ridden the Green Line Yet, maybe next time when I am in LA
Baltimore uses regular uniformed police officers on the light rail line. I saw them escort a person with an expired pass from the train when I was there earlier this year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those are MTA cops doing the POP checks on the Light Rail. The MTA cops are sworn Maryland Police Officers, and new hires must go through the Baltimore City Police Academy. They also patrol the bus lines and the subway, and have been known to be on a crime scene ahead of the City officers. Over 80% of the force have never had to pull their weapons in a situation.
When I was in San Francisco, the POP check that took place was conducted by SFPD officers in plain clothes. They displayed badges on neck chains, and escorted the person next to me (who had no proof) out of the station.
...there is no such thing as a one day pass here in lost angeles .......right !!!!
RIGHT
You can check the MTA website for fare information (http://www.mta.net/). There is no daily fare, but if you bought round trip tickets on each of the three rail lines @ $2.70 each you could ride all day for a total fare of $8.10. The round trip tickets do not expire till the end of the day. There is a weekly pass for all trains and local busses which costs $11.00. It is good from Sunday to the following Saturday, so if you purchased it on Friday it would be good for two days only.
It is clear from looking at the fares and passes offered on the MTA website that they are not considering tourists at all with the various fare plans.
Most Tourists in LA rent a car at LAX which boasts the largest Rent A Car Fleet in the world for one city, over 35K with all the different rental companies, plus peak system when they bring in extra.(Those are registered in LA ONLY) Source Travel Agent Magazine 5/99
Yes, that's part of what I'll be doing. It's my intention to fly into LAX, rent a car, visit a couple of the prime railfan sites in the area, ride the entire Metro system, and drive to my daughter's in Las Vegas, then the following week drive back via Tehachapi loop and fly back east. Of course, my daughter has been known to change my plans - it all depends on what she's planning for Alex's and my birthdays. She has the notion that we should all go to ride the Grand Canyon RR, but even in the off season that prices out at nearly $400 for the five of us - and you know who gets the bill. :-) So if we do that then LA will probably have to wait another year. At least I got to Orange Empire this past March.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which stations in the South Bronx might have the biggest drug problem?
Hunt's Point Ave. on the 6. well, some of the drug spots also include 183rd St. and Grand Concourse. 194th St., Valentine Ave., and Creston Ave. near Fordham Rd.
Tremont Avenue on the D is in rehab right now :-)
Seriously, this is the kind of question that's best answered by the NYPD. As with similar questions that have been asked on this board recently, any answers SubTalkers (with the possible exception of Sgt. Rosen of the NYPD) could give would be based on speculation and not on facts.
David
Whenever I come downtown on the "A", or am waiting for it at Canal, it
never is allowed to enter the station until the "C" is clear the switch at the south end of the station. Why isn't the southbound "A"
allowed to wait in the station until the "C" crosses over?
For safety. Since the C is crossing on to the same track as the A, there must be two blocks of seperation between the next train in the rear of it; enough room for the southbound train to come grinding to a halt after being tripped at an approach signal. The Home Signal alone does not offer complete protection from a train running over speed.
The same is true at 4th ave Brooklyn, when Crosstown trains are pulling out in front of northbound F's onto B2. ONCE, the F was cleared up to the home signal at the end of the platform, and was then held in the station. Once the time locking ran out, (I guess) the G then crossed onto B2 in advance of us. I wonder why this isn't done all the time, as plenty of people transfer to the BMT at 4th ave, and pulling the train in to the station to wait makes more sense to them....
Of course--that would make sense.
Dave
This also happens when a Queens-bound J express is rushing towards Myrtle Ave. on the exp. track with an M train crossing in front, on it's way to Metro. The J usually gets stopped just outside the station until the M clears the track.
I thought you were refering to what seems to be air conditioning at the canal street station on the broadway line. The air conditioning isn't at the platform level, rather it's in the tunnel beneath the platfrom where you change from the uptown to the downtown side. Can anyone confirm this?
There's air conditioning in the Canal Street subway station?!
Is there any timetable set for when the R62 and 68's are to start getting their GOH, or are they going to wait till all the new cars are in?
The age of GOH is over. It's been replaced by SMS. Under SMS, critical components are replaced on a 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, or 12 year cycle. By maintaining these cycles, extensive, general overhauls are no longer necessary. The closest thing now to a GOH is the 12 year SMS. The 12 year SMS for R-68s was just completed in 1999.
Hmm, sounds like what they do with Airplanes...No?
Is there any chance in the future of today's existing equipment that cars like the R62/68 will receive A/C traction? I noticed there is another test train of R38s using A/C traction motors and perhaps, one trip to the main shop will change these cars forever.
If you or anyone else can, please tell what car numbers have these A/C traction motors.
Thank you.
There wont be a GOH of these cars, like previous models. The abuse and neglect of the 60's and 70's necessitated the draconian rebuilds the R32-38-40-42-44 and 46 cars needed. The R62 and R68 have been well maintained since they were delivered, thus no large GOH will be neccessary.
you call them maintained well, Although they work well, They are in horrible shape,when u look at them
they need an interior rebuild
and an exterior one too
Mechanically they are well maintained. It's the public, the bad percentage, that destroys the trains. The scratches, the dents and dings, the trains would look like they just got their GOH or new if it weren't for these people.
Granted, the destruction is caused by some of the riding public. What I cannot understand about the R-62/62A/68/68A's is why they cannot clean or replace the side destination signs. Most of them look like crap they're filthy and barely readable.
Peace,
ANDEE
The problem is in the design, Andee. In order to cleanthat glass, the entire side destination sign must be disassembled and removed. This is extremely time consuming, costing several man-hours per car to disassemble - clean and re-assemble. This is what happens when operating personnel are not in the loop when equipment designed. However, you are incorrect in your assertion that this is not done. I know at least some of the R-68s are done on a regular basis.
But then why don't they consider replacing them with digital signs ala R-44/46? I never understood why they did not go with electronic signs as part of the original specs. After all the technology was in place when the order was placed. Thanks.
Peace,
ANDEE
PS-I feel your pain re: not consulting operations personnel my employer is just as dopey in that regard.
Electronic sign technology wasn't advanced enough when the R68's were designed (early 80's). Cost was another factor. The R68 and R62 will eventually get electronic signs, though.
I doubt that the electronic side signs are being considered for the R-68/R-68A. They are nice. They are practical. They are less maintenance intensive than the conventional side sign. However there are 625 R-68/R-68A. Eliminate the 9 cars assigned tot he franklin Shuttle and you have 616 cars or 154 links. Each link requires:
8 LCD Displays @ $3,000 each or $3.696 million for the fleet.
2 Sign Control units @ $5,000 0r $1.54 million for the fleet.
2 ODKs (keypads) @ $600 or $185,000 for the fleet.
Labor = approximately 24 MH/car or roughly $500,000 for the fleet.
That's roughly (very roughly) $6 million and the prices I quoted for the parts were established in 1991. That doesn't seem like a large sum but I doubt that the money would be available.
Yeah, they'd probably like to spend that money on something more needed. Like redesigning the logo again. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the cost of the electronic signs on the R-44s and R-46s?
What I gave was the price in 1991 for the R-44/R-46 system.
I see. Thanks.
The R68/A has been a bad design since it came. It is very grafitti welcoming. On the exterior they are inviting because they dont have little scraches like on r44s that prevent people from seeing what other people have scrached on the walls. On the interior they have stainless steel which is easy to scratch. People can also remove parts of the signs on 5186 there was an entire sign missing. I think that these cars should be redisigned in a rebuilding. Whatever happened to the grafitti free thing in the 80s
I have no clue, but the R68 is not that bad of a design, granted the Kawasaki R68A is ten times better than the Westinghouse R68, but it's time for a general overhaul!
Flxible Metro B #3511
As Train Dude has said here before, with the current maintenance plan there is no need for a GOH. That only was necessary in the past because of all the deferred maintenance. Now, with SMS, things don't get that bad. And, complain about the hippos all you want, but they have the best MDBF in the system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have no "real" complaint about the cars! It was a statement, I love the R62s/R68s and REALLY love the R46s and R142!
So no beef, no love lost!
Flxible Metro B #3511
dont start redbirds vs. r-142 again
I think the purpose of the heavy use of stainless steel was to curb graffiti (spraypaint), or at least make it easy to remove. I don't know how big a problem scratchitti was at that time, though.
Stainless steel is also less prone to corrosion. The R-32s are an excellent case in point.
The R11 proved the advantages of stainless steel cars. Imagine all the money the TA could have saved on paint had the R14-R36 fleet been constructed from it. "Redbirds" might have had a longer lifespan, although they never would have been called redbirds. And the grafitti problem of the 1970's might not have been as bad as it got.
Subway cars would have been nicer looking too. The R11 was sleeker than anything else the TA bought. Why didn't the TA learn lessons from the R11 and buy more stainless steel cars in the 50s?
The R-32s weren't immune from graffiti by any means. It may have been easier to clean off the exteriors, but it got to the point where the TA seemed to give up.
Yep, I remember seeing the stainless steel cars suffer from grafitti as well in the 1970's-80's. Somehow, they never looked as bad as the painted carbon steel cars.
They could wash them. Washing the other cars off of graffiti would wash them free of paint!
The white paint was the first paint that could resist the heavy wash.
Yeah, but it actually stimulated grafitti, providing a nice, neutral background to deface, like a blank canvas. Another color might have been wiser ...
Several years ago I had a discussion with an acquaintance who is a retired paint chemist for DuPont on this same basic subject - I was inquiring as to why certain colors tended to fade more than others (I owned a "claret red" '79 Bonneville that had faded badly). To make a long story short, the lighter-colored the pigment, the more chemically stable it is, which enables it to form a better bond with its base. (Some dark-colored pigments - especially reds - can seriously weaken the base.) I'll offer the following example (note that this scale is absolutely arbitrary and is used for relative purposes only, it is not intended to represent any measured chemical property).
white: plus 4
light blue: plus 3
light green: plus 2
light yellow: plus 2
medium blue: plus 1
dark blue: 0
light brown: 0
dark brown: minus 1
black: minus 1
red: minus 2
burgundy red: minus 3
Metallic colors also tend to fade and stand up to washing more poorly, but this is due to the reflective and abrasive characteristics of the metal flakes, not the chemical characteristics of the pigments.
Anyway, I have no way of knowing if the TA used this logic in choosing the color, but it stands to reason that if they wanted a paint that would stand up to the repeated scrubbings that it would take to remove graffiti, white would make chemical sense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
06/17/2000
[Whatever happened to the grafitti free thing in the 80s ]
It has returned, but sharp instruments have replaced spray paint.
Bill "Newkirk"
For obvious reasons, I will be extremely vague about details but the miscreants have upped the ante once again. They have begun using an acid used for etching glass to deface the windows. The result is a milky white scar on the glass that can't be removed and becomes re-activeated when wet and potentially dangerous to riders who may come in contact with it.
I think physics yields a solution to both problems. A thin conductive film applied to both sides of the windows would have specific electrical characteristics. Damaging the window would change these characteristics. This could be detected electronically and reported to the train personnel. At that point the train can be stopped and the doors held closed while the police respond. The guilty party can then be held responsible for the cost of replacing all of the damaged glass on that train.
Ok, it's not really cheap, but if it were done on say, 20% of the cars, once word got out, nobody would dare touch the glass anymore.
>>. At that point the train can be stopped
and the doors held closed while the police
respond. The guilty party can then be held
responsible....
people CAN and (as per 149th St.) WILL
jump off trains via between-cars...
Nope. Not on a R68. The end doors are, or at least supposed to be locked.
And the side doors have no emergency releases???? Somehow I cannot see the TA holding the passengers captive to arrest a tagger. If an area and time where vandalism occurs can be identified, undercover police could be present. The real problem is whether courts will give any meaningful punishment.
I prefer that the electrical system changes, and a switch is thrown that electrifies a conductive material on the glass.
As for grafitti, I always thought a potent way would be a paint that reacts with spraypaint such to cause it to combust, injuring the can's holder.
impractical, but cool
One can only dream, even if he knows in his saner moments that that can't be done.
The doors don't have emergency releases on the inside. In the event that all the doors must be unlocked, the crew has a button in the cab that automatically releases all the doors.
It's still no big deal to get out of them between cars. Just kick out the storm door glass and use the outside switch. Any vandal is sure to know this.
Peace,
ANDEE
i mean no car can stay in service for 24 hours with grafitti
I saw #8785 at the E 180 St Yard yesterday, and saw its sign with a green (SS). Pre-'79? Might it also have that gray (5), too?
BTW, I took a picture of this sign for all to see, at least once it gets developed.
This is true. R-33 #9279 has an old canvas end destination sign (from the 60s) after all these years, so it is not surprising. For whatever reason, there are a number of R-29s that still have the old 70s roll signs, with a color represeneting each individual route.
-Stef
I already posted a picture of this train and SS sign. The post's address is http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=127342
-Harry
that's strange. It's an old sign, but the font and the style looks like today's signs.
I've seen these, with yellow 6's and magenta 4 "bullets" on white squares. I wonder why they weren't removed when the cars were GOH'd.
I have scrolled through the one on #7821 and noted: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 SS. All in round circles, all with white letters. I may have gotten a few colors a little off, since I had to look at the sign from the back. The 3 is supposed to be blue-green.
No the #3 is LIGHT BLUE as you have illustrated it; not blue-green (the HTML color convention nonwithstanding). It's the same color as the "E", "M" and #8 were in the pre-1979 color system.
Blue-Green is a darker color, more like a shade of aqua.
wayne
Well, I was looking at the thing from behind, on the middle of a moving train, and couldn't stick my head out to check it out since it was pouring rain. I left it on 6 so I could see it when I got off.
I noticed it when the TO was changing a sign at Bowling Green. I noticed a pikish circle under the gray 5. 4?
Yes, #4 was magenta (Pink), same color as "AA", "F", "MJ" etc.
wayne
Has anyone else noticed the updated Subway map at the MTA site? They corrected the Express stop problem on the seven line (had one where there wasn't one).
Problems. . .
The map is a lower grade image and the text is hard to read, even though I know the station names.
The two GIFs that the Map uses don't line up now. Whoever designed the new HTML didn't align them.
Ironically, I have found no simple way to contact MTA about this through email and I feel that a phone call complaint would go unheard. Any Suggestions?
Jason
> Ironically, I have found no simple way to contact MTA about this
> through email
Exactly the way they want it. Making people use the phone or actually sending a letter means only the most seriously offended people will make complaints.
(Of course that doesn't stop random people from mailing complaints to me, thinking I have an insiders way to forward them.)
-Dave
Does anyone know what went on at the Westbury LIRR station this morning? I heard a radio report at 6 am saying that trains were bypassing the station due to a police investigation. When my train passed through at about 7:45 (it wasn't scheduled to stop), I saw several police cars blocking off the street along the north side of the station and yellow warning tape strung everywhere. Nothing amiss was apparent at platform level. When I got to Penn Station about 8:25, an annoucment for an eastbound train said that only the first car would open at Westbury.
A woman was murdered there around midnight last night. The police investigation continued until late this morning. Her boyfriend was arrested.
Chuck
Who would be the one to address this condition?
Each time it rains on the county of Queens, the results are saved at the Woodhaven subway station.
It seems the drains at the stairs marked "6-M-A" are packed with silt/butts/refuse to a point they just don't drain water runoff.
So who gets to clean the Drain. Is it:
a) a plumber
b) a station porter
c) and if not a or b , does Vector Control come to spray the standing water (6-8 inhes deep) for West Nile Mosquitoes?
Part II
Would you use :
d) Drano
e) Rotorooter
f) form blue ribbon committee to clear stairs of any wrong doing.
g) charge passengers for foot wash
I assume you realize public hearings and an environmental impact statement are needed to clear a drain. You need to get the planning phase in the MTA's 2004 to 2008 capital plan. If you're in luck, construction might begin by 2010.
I'll define "railfan moment" as "something completely unexpected, but still train related, that occurred while you were railfanning"; for example, you were taking pictures at Kings Highway on the Brighton Line when a set of Lo-Vs went by, or something like that.
I'm sure we've all had one. I posted one in the "D 6112 on the Sea Beach" thread; another one I had was when I won the opportunity to spend a day with the crew of the Track Geometry Car (TGC-II) at the last Transit Museum Auction & Tag Sale a few years ago. Their assignment that day was to take readings of the #5 line from Nostrand/Flatbush to E 180th St in both directions. Had lunch in the pocket track between Atlantic Av & Nevins St on the Brooklyn IRT.
What was your most memorable "railfan moment"?
--Mark
My NYC 'railfan moment' was the weekday back in 1983 that I was out on the Rockaway Line. I've never lived in the NYC area, so this was a rare opportunity to photograph R-10's on the CC local, along with the various A trains. I was on the Manhattan-bound side of the Aqueduct-N Conduit Av station when a train of R-10's pulled in. I'm glad I was paying attention, because the train was signed up 'A - Wash. Hts./207th St.' My heart leaped, and I jumped on board. Being the rush hour, the train operated express along Fulton Street (back then, the A operated as the Fulton local at all other times). I rode that old warrior all the way to 207th Street, standing at the railfan window. We had nothing but green signals all the way, so those R-10's really moved.
I missed the glory days of these cars when they ruled the 8th Avenue Express, but that afternoon gave me my one and only glimpse of what it was like. A fine day.
- Jim
I'm glad your most memorable moment includes the R-10s on the A. That was an unbeatable combination.
1) Catching the R-9 clearance cars in LI city on the LIRR, being moved to SI.
2) Some cop telling me I needed a photo permit back in 1967.
3) Wishing I had my Camera in Stillwell Ave when the brand-new R-40 was moved for a posed cover photo shoot in Modern Railroad Magazine (a trade magazine).
Mine occurred in 1947. Finally that year I got interested in baseball and didn't bnug my father to take me home after an inning or two. I remember going to Ebbets Field on the Brighton Express (ok, Bob, your train, you damn Yankee fan). I got the railfan window on the Triplex and watched the train go from 7th Avenue out of the tunnel into the bright sunshine of Prospect Park Station and Ebbets Field as the man called out. I have never forgotten that moment. The Dodgers split a DH with the Braves that day.
Most memorable - dare I say quintessential?
* A gray gloomy day in early Spring on the 1966 Culver version of the D in an R1 with little bits of rain and mist coming through the storm door as the bull and pinion gears whined their way out of the tunnel and up the hill towards Ditmas. Dad told me to try and see the Ave X subway yard and the D took me on my first trip to see it - even if only from a distance.
* Myrtle "Q" car train groaning into Wyckoff Ave in their last year of service. I think Sarge has a seat from that train :-)
* Riding the ancient SIRT cars back in 1968 from St. George to Tottenville during a snow storm and feeling perfectly cozy sitting on those super hot cane seats.
* Flying through the flats towards Hamels on an R9 A train - very unusual back in 1969 that this A train was not using R10 equipment.
* My first ride on an R32 in 1965 signed up for the Q Brighton Express - flying up the express track to Prospect Park. The deep blue doors and the tiled blue & white floors with stainless steel fluting on the outside were impressive. But the speed that train was doing! He nearly overshot the platform! Oh how I wish I knew how fast he was going - -
* In the very early '60's when Dad took us to the city on the F (probably R6s or R9s? definitely nothing newer than an R9 at that time) and the rush of air causing our ears to pop as we flew down the hill in the 53rd street tunnel. We learned that the rush of air meant we were out of Queens and into Manhattan or vice versa.
I used to feel that same pop in the 14th St. tunnel when the train would pass one of the two air shafts. After a while, I would keep my mouth open as the train passed that spot.
I was just as impressed with the R-32s when I first saw them. You're right - they could really move when they were new.
IIRC, they kept one or two trainsets of R-1/9s on the A back in the late 60s. It was a rare sight in any event. I think I rode on maybe five prewar A trains at the most.
I was exploring the Broadway line in Brooklyn for the first time in the summer of 1953. I was at the storm door of the front car as we pulled into Myrtle Avenue Station. There up above on the Myrtle Ave. line was a set of 1300 Gate cars with the center window panels removed. I had no idea at the time that those gate cars were in service there. Naturally I went up there and rode those cars from one end of the line to the other and back again.
Three of them:
1. When the engineer (at least that's what I called him) let me hold the throttle lever on an Electroliner back when I was about five years old.
2. Riding the footboards on the old Lackawanna 2-8-0 at Bloomsburg yard.
3. Riding with my great-uncle, a Pennsy engineer, in the cab of GG-1 4908 on his final run, pulling the Afternoon Congressional from New York to Washington.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. August 4 1969 - a train of new R40Ms (led by #4300/4301) shows up on the "LL", ice cold within on a 96-degree day.
2. My last trip on a Greenbird R10 "A" - back in 1988.
3. October 3, 1969 - Farewell to the "MJ" and the Q cars.
4. August 1972 - my first look at the R44.
5. September 11, 1973 - the Ride From Hell on R-6-2 #1277
I have many others, can't remember them all.
Last Day Of Culver Shuttle Service...May 1975
West End Car Lenght From 8 to 10 with REBUILT R40 slants...1987
I kind of figured that ride on 9/11/73 would rank up there.:-)
Perhaps I should also include my last ride on the Thunderbirds - the R-10s which I so dearly love - October 26 or 27, 1988.
06/14/2000
My most memorable railfan moment was not unexpected by rather expected. Back about 1979 I was with a group of railfans on an unusual fantrip called "The Mosholu Transfer". Basically this fantrip was the newly repainted "Diamond Jubilee" Low-V's pushing a repainted flat car with benches. This flat car was repainted tuscan red as the Low-V's and equipped with benches for a ceremony to recreate the 1904 opening of the Interborough subway. See November 2000 of my NYC Subways calendar.
The fantrip starting at Grand Central on the shuttle with all participants seated on the flatcar, who'd ride inside? , we traveled down the Lex to City Hall for a group shot. We then traveled up the Lex much to the astonishment of shocked people on the platforms. We even ran on the Jerome Avenue middle north to Concourse yard. The most memorable parts of this trip was being seated on a flat car being pushed through the tunnels with pillars speeeding past us. Also exiting the portal on the Jerome into the daylight passing Yankee Stadium. This part was more akin to riding in a convertible (automobile). I seriously doubt such an excursion can be held today with fear of lawsuits etc.
Bill "Newkirk"
What part of the tunnel was that calendar photo taken in? Let me rephrase that: at what point between the shuttle station and Park Ave. was that photo taken? It's very intriguing, as you can see the original adjacent trackway.
Ride in the last car on a southbound Lex local from GCT. You will see the track connection to the shuttle leading up the hill. You can see it better on a redbird.
Good point. You can see where the original ROW went from a northbound 6 train just before the curve into Grand Central. IIRC, the line descends as it approaches Grand Central, so the original ROW only appears to be going uphill. On the original express station at Grand Central (today's shuttle station), the station roof is directly beneath the street.
When I took a PCC out of interlock, released the brake and pushed the power pedal - with nobody else on the car. In service. Then I knew I was a real motorman.
I still need to think about mine, but I can tell you my father's. For railroads it was when he almost got ran over by a GG-1 at Princeton Jct station and for transit it was running into (figuritively) the State of the Art cars on both PATCO and the Broad St Line.
First please note that this effect is not localized to 15th St. station on Philly's Market-Frankford EL. It occurs in transit systems around the world including Penn Station: New York.
The 15th St. effect is when at a non-terminus station nearly all the people get off the train and are then replaced by an entirely new set of people. At around rush hour a fairly crowded MFL train will pull into 15th St. station. The platforms will be packed with people. As the train slows 90% of the people in the trail will stand up and when the doors open, will proceede to exit. For a split second the train will be virtually empty (this is when you move to the railfan window). But then the train is again filled to capasity by a new set of people getting on the train.
I have also noticed the effect when taking Amtrak home from New Haven. When the train stops in Penn Station 80-90% of the people will get off. Then, a few minutes later when the track # is anounced in the waitinhg area, a new set of people will flood the train, often leaving standing room only. This is a good thing for through travelers because if we were screwed out of a good seat on the first leg of our journey, we can usually grap a better one.
I was wondering (I wonder quite a bit if you all haven't noticed) if any of you have notived the 15th St. effect anywhere else.
Sometimes, especially during times of heavy shopping, the effect is as great if not greater at 11th Street. Also, the same happens on the 52 bus at Market Street, and I would imagine on a Broad Street Local train.
I remember this on the downtown 2/3 at Times Square.
Five Points in Atlanta
Does the other half live there?
On some LIRR trains you get a full "15th Street Effect" at Jamaica (I've never been to the 15th Street you speak of, but I like the name). I'm thinking mainly of the weekend Brooklyn to Far Rockaway trains (which skip Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale).
Chuck
I've noticed this phenomenon on Southwest Airlines flights from Los Angeles that stop in Las Vegas. 95% of the passengers deplane at Vegas, only to be replaced by a whole new set of people bound for Kansas City or some other point east. Perhaps the term "15th Street Effect" and its definition should be included in a transit glossary.
In any transportation system, it's known as "hub and spoke." Pick up an airline magazine, and look at the route map: You'll see hubs (major transfer points) and spokes (routes to smaller cities). Examples include Denver, Chicago, Washington/Dulles (United); Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Charlotte (USAirways); Chicago, Dallas (American); Atlanta, Dallas, Cincinnati (Delta), etc.
Long-haul bus companies do the same thing. For example, Springfield, MA is the "hub" for Peter Pan Bus Lines. Passengers from many cities are routed there, then change for buses to their destination cities.
Hub and spoke systems are more efficient at transporting a large number of people to/from multiple cities than direct service -- you use less equipment and thus need fewer employees. Disadvantages include longer routings for passenger (with required changes), and congestion in/near hubs.
By the way, that's why you'll often hear airplane flights as being "direct" vs. "non-stop." Direct flights originate at one city and terminate at another, but stop at one or more cities in between -- something you may not know when buying your ticket, so be sure to ask the airline or travel agent.
The most famous hub in the NYC metropolitan area is Jamaica, as in "Change at Jamaica!" The branch lines are easterly spokes, and Penn Station, Brooklyn, Hunterspoint Ave., and LIC are westerly spokes. Only the Port Washington line is separate from the Jamaica hub system.
Good description. MetroCenter in DC is like that. Gallery Place is like that in the easternmost car of every red line train (because that one is closest to the transfer location at 7th St.
Well what makes the 15th St. effect slightly different than the hub and spoke phenominon is that all the places where it occurs is not really a "hub" and the fact that nearly the entire compliment of the train is changes. With standard hub and spoke you would expect a good percentage of the people to remain on the plain or train or whatever. With most big destination stations you would expect a group of people to get on or a group of people to get off.
i think the 15th St. effect is caused by a bizzare combination/interaction of all these factors. For example at Penn Station all the trains are going DC to Boston, but the passengers are only going either Boston to NYC or NYC to DC. For the 15th St. effect to work you need to have a large amount of people who want to get to point C from point B, but few people who want to go to point C from point A.
I think you're right with respect to trains, Mike, in that at "hubs" many people stay on trains rather than change. But I've been on many planes at hubs where all but a few (and sometimes all) passengers change. For example, a plane going from Providence to Chicago/O'Hare then Wichita -- nearly everyone changes. Few people go from Providence to Wichita (but I've done it!).
53rd / Lex on WTC / CI bound E and F trains from 2:00 to 4:00 PM (I don't know about other times). When on the local, this happens at every express stop (non-rush only, since locals are less crowded than expresses during the rush people like to keep their seat, or standing / leaning spot.)
I see this happen at Union Square on the "L".
wayne
DeKalb Ave. on weekdays around 7AM. About 50% of passengers on the N transfer onto the D and Q. When trains are held in the station for a connection, D and Q passengers get on the N and R.
I mentioned before that the track in the Philly subway portion of PATCO is still old jointed rail that probably dates back to the DRJC "Bridge Line". Well I just noticed laying on the track in 15/16th and 12/13th new strands of welded rail waiting to be installed.
In my ongoing series of subway opinion questions I ask al of you to settle the age old arguement: What is better, Island Platforms or Side Wall Platforms.
(What is better, Island Platforms or Side Wall Platforms).
If you have the old IRT's, with the platform a short set of stairs down from the street, then I'd say side platforms. You need a mezzanine level for an island platform.
OTOH, if you are going to have the mezzanine anyway, you are better off with the island. Concentrates the people for security, and allows you to turn around if you miss your stop.
Island for two track branches, but this can make it difficult for A.D.A. people without escalators or elevators or long ramps. Side wall for four track lines, are probly less expensive.Where the local pemits I'd put the express tracks on a lower level and island the local tracks if a mezz were possible
avid
"Island for two track branches, but this can make it difficult for A.D.A. people without escalators or elevators or long ramps."
Why? Chicago has center platforms on most of the rapid transit system other than original elevated lines, and there are escalators at many stations and elevators at some of the newer stations. In fact:
1) Center platforms mean having one elevator instead of two; and
2) At least here in Chicago, center platforms are wider than side platforms.
Of course, the latter may have to do with when the station was built. The old side-platform L stations can be frighteningly narrow at places (the center-platform L stations of the Red Line north of Wilson aren't that much better), while the 1940s-era subway stations are somewhat wider, and the platforms on stations from the 1960s and later are exceedingly wide, almost comically so at places like the Kimball Street Subway portion of the Blue Line.
"1) Center platforms mean having one elevator instead of two; and"
How would people get from the street to the mezzanine then?
Some center-platform stations with elevators on the CTA system don't have a mezzanine -- expressway-median stations like Harlem (Blue) and 79th (Red), terminal stations like Forest Park (Blue), or new/remodeled L stations like the Orange Line stops and Loyola (Red).
As you suggest with your question, the downtown subway stations with elevators have two, one from surface to mezzanine, and a separate one within fare control from mezzanine to platform.
However:
1) Some stations with side platforms AND a mezzanine would need *three* elevators if CTA were ever to make those stations accessible. I'm thinking of Grand, Chicago (which SHOULD be accessible considering its proximity to North Michigan Avenue), and North/Clybourn Red stations. If these stations had center platforms, they would only need two elevators to be accessible.
2) The one Loop side-platform station with elevators AND a mezzanine, Washington/Wells, uses (two) divided elevators. The elevator cars have a plexiglass divider down the middle and doors on the front and back. When you get on the elevator at ground level, the doors open on the mezzanine outside fare control. Once you clear fare control, you get on the side of the elevator that is within fare control to go up to the platform. There is no button for the street on the fare-control side of the elevator, and no button for the platform on the non-fare-control side of the elevator.
In Baltimore, all stations are island platformed, and each station has one elevator that serves both street to mezz and mezz to platform.
The MTA has wisely decided that since the elevators were paid for with public money, the public should be able to use them. That decision as aided people with babies in strollers, which do not get along with escalators.
Passengers have to pay for the subway, if th elevator serve both street to mezz. and mezz. to street, where do they pay?
That's what the mezzanine is for.
On the DC metro I was at the Blue Line arlington station and there was an elevator at St. level. I went down it and found that it let me out inside the face control. Well because you need a ticket to exit I went back up and did the hounorable thing, but still.
[Well because you need a ticket to exit I went back up and did the hounorable thing, but still. ]
What happenes if you lose the ticket?
Arti
[What happens if you lose the ticket?]
You would have to buy another ticket while still inside the fare-control area. I know on BART there are ticket machines inside the stations, but minimum fare is $3.80 (wheras average BART fare would only be 2.20 from say, the east bay to SF, although it goes all the way up to 4.40 if you wanted to go from say, Pittsburgh/Antioch to Daly City (but who would want to do that).
The elevators are set up as follows. When you enter at street level and press the button, the doors close and the car descends to the mezz level, where the doors open. The car is now disabled until the fare(s) are paid. The station agent unlocks the car, the customer(s) return to the car, press the (same) button (the cars have only a down, up, and emergency button) the car descends to the platform. Going up the car stops at the mezz, then ascends to the street level.
You need a mezzanine level for an island platform.
Minor counter-example: City Hall BMT.
Another counterexample, for now: 72nd Street IRT.
I'd have to say Sidwall Platforms! On a Island platform I feel like I'm surrounded! Plus wuth Sidewall platforms (if it is a 4-track line), you get to watch the express fly by!
Flxible Metro B #3511
Side platforms in a shallow subway, like the original IRT, are labor intensive, as they require two station agents. Most platforms here in Los Angeles are island. Wilshire and Vermont is an exception, causing a delay, since the operator sits in the left part of the cab and has to get up to open and close the doors on the right. The 7th and Flower station on the Blue Line, the terminal, has side platforms, which is efficient because it separates exiting passengers from those waiting to board. All things considered, island platforms are more efficient in most situations.
I don't care for Island platforms if it is a heavily used station.
With an island platform if people are boarding trains, especially in both directions, there can be a gridlock of people. This often happens at N/R Lexington avenue, E/F Lexington avenue, and at the 7 Grand Central station. At rush hour, people are traveling both Queens bound and Manhattan or Brooklyn bound.
If sidewall platforms were installed at those stations instead, people would flow more easily because the directions would be seperated.
Why were those stations built with island platforms in the first place?
In a 4 track local/express station configuration it is better to have island platforms serving each direction, one the southbound local/express and the other Northbound. The gridlock at 34th street on the west side IRT express platform is horrible, it would move better if they had it arranged like 42nd street. Also it is easier to change between local and express trains at 42nd street.
Island platforms on a two track local line in more lightly used stations make sense though.
[I don't care for Island platforms if it is a heavily used station.]
Well, Park Street on the Boston Red Line has an island platform. It also happens to have two side platforms, and the side platform doors open first. I hope the MBTA is never forced to permanently eliminate one of the platforms.
Going northbound from the Green Line portion, both sides open doors, and you can even cross the tracks legally there.
One of the strangest platforms in the MBTA system is the Red Line at Porter Square. It is arranged as an island platform, but with the outbound one level lower than the inbound, a situation that is reversed at the bi-level side platform at Harvard. Porter is also the deepest station in the system.
> One of the strangest platforms in the MBTA system is the
> Red Line at Porter Square. It is arranged as an island
> platform, but with the outbound one level lower than the
> inbound, a situation that is reversed at the bi-level
> side platform at Harvard. Porter is also the deepest
> station in the system.
Thanks to Todd Glickman we now have some really nice photos of these stations on our Boston Red Line page.
-Dave
And to that I'll add that Harvard has a co-located, bi-level busway!
I agree. Angel Station on the London Underground during the rush hour was probably one of the nastiest stations in the world. Very busy and with a very narrow island. Thankfully, now rebuilt and much better. Most Tube stations on the Underground are technically Island but with tube walls separating the two which gets the best of both worlds, as there are links between the two platforms. This separates traffic flow and allows a change of direction (or hedging bets if a train in either direction will do).
The 34th St. stations on the 7th Ave. and 8th Ave. lines were built that way on purpose to discourage local-to-express transfers due to their close proximity to Penn Station.
First we should list the advantages and disadvantages of the side wall
platforms and island platform.
Advantages of island platform:
1.Utilized mthe facilities on the platforms (like escalator and elevators).
2.Easy for management (one instead of two station agents).
3.You can alight and turn around easily when you miss the stop.
Lots more later.
First we should list the advantages and disadvantages of the side wall
platforms and island platform.
Advantages of island platform:
1.Utilized mthe facilities on the platforms (like escalator and elevators).
2.Easy for management (one instead of two station agents).
3.You can alight and turn around easily when you miss the stop.
Lots more later...
I favor multi-island platforms, the likes of which can be found at Jamaica LIRR, Hoyt-Schemerhorn Downtown BKLYN, 59th St Columbus Circle, and the Peninsula and a half at Chambers-WTC where the "E" terminates.
The Jamaica station is the only one I know of to be able to pass thru a car or where both side of a train open. Chamber st and Canal of "J"Z"M" fameare neat and all door possible bu not probable. I guess it would be to labor intensive to open both sides. Worse , it would confuse riders not expecting it. The traffic is just not there to warrant use of these idle platforms.
avid
In Boston, Park Street on the Red Line is a "both sides, all times" station for both directions; there is an island and two wall platforms. So is Sullivan Square on the Orange Line but only on the northbound side as it comes in on the middle track of a three track/two island station.
You couldn't open both sides at Chambers Street, anyway, since the rolling stock uses corner cabs; you really need full-width cabs to be able to do this realistically.
There was no station colder than Eastern Parkway on the BMT during the winter. The wind would blow across those platforms, and it would feel like the arctic. Frequently, during off-peak hours, when the Lex terminated on the center track at EP, the gatemen would open the gates on both sides, and people waiting for a Jamaica or New York bound train, could sit in and enjoy the warmth of the gate cars until their train of Standards would pull in.
That was one cold station in the winter!
I still remember when the center platform at 59th St. was in use, and actually boarded trains from it. One morning, our northbound A train of R-10s opened up on both sides, to the right first, then to the left. I got off onto the center platform, and a few minutes later a southbound D train of R-32s (there might have been R-42s mixed in; I didn't notice) pulled in. Same thing; first the doors opened to the right, then a minute or so later, they opened to the center platform and I got on. The doors would close in reverse sequence.
I agree that opening up on both sides would be much easier from a transverse cab. Maybe someday we'll see that done again at 59th St.
FYI those are called "Gauntlet tracks".
"Putnam Area Rapid Transit
Fair
Patterson, NY 12563-0000
Phone: (914) 878-7433
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From the online yellow pages. Does anyone have any information on this?
The Putnam Area Rapid Transit (or PART) is the bus system here in Putnam County. Why they refer to it as rapid transit escapes me. The offices are located on Fair Street in Patterson. Most telephone directories do not specify 'street' as part of the address, just the street name. Hence the listing looked like 'Putnam Area Rapid Transit Fair'.
If you feel that crime is slowly getting worse, just remember what it was like in the mid-70's, early 80's when the city was on the verge of bankrupcy.In the late 80's, imagine living in a city with a homicide rate at just under 3000 a year.We are talking about isolate cases of everyday life that inevitably will happen in society. Not what some precincts looked like 20 years ago in Harlem or East New York.
To solve the coming car shortage, Convert the Redbirds to Ind-Bmt cars by putting platforms infront of the doors
I know it might not make much sense, but now it is the time you need them.
Time to see 12car Trains
We've discussed this a few months ago. Since the redbirds are nearing the end of their life cycles, it would not make sense to add the platforms extenders to it. If we do that, we must also install new rollsigns to it.
What is a railfan window?
MY GOD MAN, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!!!!
Pleeaasssssse don't go there...
(Friendly hint: it's the window you can look out of at the front of the train on NYC subway cars that run particularly on the J, L, M, Q, N, R, Z and some IRT lines like the #2 and #5).
Doug aka BMTman
COOOOOOL! I'm coming down from Canada this weekend to fight off the locals for that specific seat and ride the world's most interesting subway system for the first time. Man, I'm so looking forward to it.Any specific line you think I should be looking at. Mostly for pictures. Thanks...
You have to stand, lest you're on PATH or SEPTA.
"....ride the world's most interesting subway system for the first time."
Hope you enjoy Washington.
Just kidding!
I have it under good authority that you couldn't do better then the two tour guides that you're hooking up with ... enjoy.
Mr t__:^)
thank you Thurston, I'm really looking forward to it and thanks for all the help. I'll speak to you soon.
Actually, I don't think any Railfan has only 1 memorable moment. I have several. one is when I was 8 in 1989, when I first Rode the F Train. My Dad, (Richard Roach, A QV B/O) had taken me to Queens plaza and that was the first time I ever rode the Subway, that I can remember. Then, my Dad, brother and I went to meet my Mom in Manhattan, and it so happens the Library was closed for some holiday. Then I went on my first Joyride. We were supposed to meet my mom at Lexinton and 51st, but we needed to kill time. So we took the 6, then connected with the 5 and took the 5 to bowling green. That was the first Joyride I ever took in the subway, and when I found out that Trains make U-Turns(5 turning at south ferry loop). My latest memorable moment was when the Debut of the School Metrocard came out(the Green ones), I remember when I found out the Card can be used on the subway. After that day forward, I loved to joyride all the time on the F, My favorite B Division line, and then I discovered that the E and 7 had a connection at Jackson heights. So I then started to Railfan by Taking the Q27 to Main street, taking the 7, getting of at 74th and catching the E back to Jamaica. This sounds madd dumb to my friends, but they don't understand me like that, because there is a Bus at my school(Cardozo) that can take me to Jamaica directly, the Q30.
1975, when the R46 entered service. I was joyriding at Coney Island after school that day and saw the most beutiful silvery train ever in my life.I had to learn every thing i could about it. I learned that the cars were crap.
When I rode my first subway alone into Manhattan. I boarded an R-32, number 3730 at Roosevelt ave, and took it to the 8th ave line. Upon arrival at 42st, I saw an R-38 A come in, saw it was a weird train and boarded it.(I had not conciously noticed them before, all my previous experiences with non-Queens Blvd. line service mostly involved rushing to the PATH or Port Authority with my dad). I got off the A at 14th, and waited for the E. Despite the fact that I had moved up a few cars on the A, I still ended up on 3730 (I must have somehow drifted back toward the center while waiting). At Canal, I took the R-38 A again to Chambers. I waited for the uptown A for 15 minutes, and got an R-44. I took it to 42st. I run across the platform for the E, but just miss it. The next train comes, and I end up on 3730 yet again.
My memorable commuter rail moment was when I first rode the LIRR C-1 out of NYP. The ride was incredibly smooth and silent (in car 3002), so silent that 2 people turned off their cell phones when they started ringing. The cars smelled a little like airplanes. It blew my mind when I learned that there was such a thing as a married pair of diesel coaches. I wondered (and still do) where the hell 3005 and 3006 are. There's 3001-3004, and 3007-3010, where are the middle two?
When I first rode the 7th ave line I took an R-33 2 and was appalled at the sight of a missing center light track and the peeling white ceiling paint. I wasn't too happy about the no-blinking lights, either.
Other moments include seeing LIRR bilevels in Yonkers, seeing blue stripe MN car on NJT, seeing a red stripe CDOT cab car on NJT (The Nutteger car number 6205 or 6206), seeing MARC cars on NJT tracks, seeing an LIRR C-3 on a siding coupled to tanker cars between N. Elizabeth and Newark just after the Budwiser plant in the Manhattan bound direction, riding a Philly M-4 for the first time.
06/15/2000
[I wondered (and still do) where the hell 3005 and 3006 are.]
Probably with the rest of the C-1 bi-levels. They're up for sale, who's gonna buy em' ?
Bill "Newkirk"
The thing is, I have never seen them. A week after I first rode the train, I began a quest for those cars. I checked that yard by Richmond Hill (from a Lower Montauk train), Port Jefferson's yard, Hillside Yard (from both the Main Line trains and the Babylon via St. Albans trains), and LIC yard, as well as on the test train, and did not find them!
06/15/2000
Maybe #3005/3006 were stripped for parts to keep the other C-1's alive. Maybe that's why you never saw them.
Bill "Newkirk"
During the summer between 4th and 5th grade my dad took my brothers and I over to the Lake street "L" line for a ride. We went to the station that he worked as a gate guard at prior to WW-II (the big one)
We entered a train set of 4000's and my dad ushered us up to the front and took over the Railfan seat and the front of the car. We first rode out to the end with the operator, changed ends with him and then rode into the loop and back to our starting point.
At that time all of the west end of the trip was a grade, prior to the line being relocated to the Notrhwestern RR elevation that ran next to the line.
I remember the ramps up from grade to the eleveated structure and the ride around the Loop. We usually did not make it downtown when we went into the City to visit my Grand Parents.
The operator took good care of us since my dad was a former employee and my grand father worked his career as a conductor on the South Side "L"
It was a great day. Almost as good as the day we rode the Grand Ave. Trolley bus to and from Navy Pier to see the 1962 Rod and Custom Car Show.
Lucky you! I saw the 4000s on the Evanston Express, but never had a chance to ride on them. I could always tell them apart from the 6000s because they sounded distinctly different. Did they moan and groan as they started up?
I have numerous memorable transit moments, too many to list here. The most significant ones are as follows:
July 21, 1965: my very first subway ride, on an N train of shiny new R-32s. My love affair with the subway began on this date.
April 30, 1967: first visit to the city since moving to New Jersey; first ride on the IND. Took a D from Rockefeller Center all the way to Coney Island via the Culver line; returned to Times Square on the BMT.
May 7, 1967: first ride on the 8th Ave. line on an AA. Got an earful at 81st St. as an express ripped past.
July 20, 1967: rode on an A train for the first time. Also noticed for the first time we were skipping a local stop. Saw the BMT standards for the first time.
August 9, 1967: first ride on the IRT to the Bronx Zoo.
Sept. 23, 1967: Had a bitter psyche etched indelibly in my memory for the E train. My loyalty to the A was forged on this day as our uptown train crawled past 23rd St. Also rode on the R-16s for the first of two times.
Nov. 24, 1967: Experienced a CPW express dash for the first time on a prewar D train.
May 1968: Rode on an E express in Queens for the first time. That train of R-6/7s smoked.
July 1969: Experienced perhaps the fastest R-10 ride I ever had, on an A train from Howard Beach to Broad Channel. Once we cleared the bridge, we were off to the races. That train had to be doing 50, if not 60.
August 1, 1970: Caught a 7 express back to Times Square after seeing the Mets and Tom seaver at Shea.
Hmm, that's a good question. I guess finally riding the 4 to Yankee Stadium to see my 1st Yankee game in person. Also riding the White Plains road line up to the Bronx, and riding my favorite Brooklyn BMT, the Culver line to West 8 Street and overlooking historic parts of Brooklyn.
excellent question... it was about a year ago... i had a minor relapse and was shuffling around the wardroom at bellevue when i noticed something strange was on the wardroom television... i attempted to focus on the screen and discovered there were people arguing about subway lines... i had discovered subtalk... i quickly realized that there were other people also interested in transit who were functioning out in the world, despite being more disturbed than i am... i resented their success at passing as normal, and dedicated myself right then and there to making their lives as miserable as possible...
A lot of us have had memorable (transit) experiences, although, we were too young remember the details.
My earliest; We went on the trolley to either Starlight Park (in the Bronx on the 180th St Line) or to the Feast on Authur Ave in the evening. This was in 1948. We lived up off of Mosholu Pkwy. So, I remember taking the Webster Ave Trolley to Fordham and transferring to another car, and then the 180 St route, which had many curves in it. And, of course there were the lights, rides and aromas and tastes of the goodies. I do not remember coming home, I probably fell asleep.
So, who has a date as to when Starlight Park closed, so I can figure out which place I went to on my first memorable transit trip.
Another one from '48, was seeing a snowplow in action out on Long Island. I believe that there was a memorable snow storm that year in the east that year.
My most memorable trip as a railfan was the first time I stepped on to the platform of a gate car on the Myrtle Ave Line in 1956. I thought I had stepped back 20 years in time. Even though we still had the MUDCs running on the 3rd Ave line in the Bronx, stepping on to that Myrtle Ave gate car was a really memorable experience.
A gate car work train was still in use on the 3rd Ave line at that time. And, I wished I could get a ride on it. So, once I found out that that they were sill using the gate cars in Brooklyn, I was there on the following Saturday, and I went back on Sunday also.
I also rode on the last day of service on the last remnant of the Fulton Ave El before the IND connection to Lefferts (and later, Rockaway) ended that piece of history.
I used to see many postings on the upcoming Farewell to the Redbird tip this summer. Only one thing. When is it, Where is it, and how much does it cost?
Please Email me if you have any information on this or please post a message on Subtalk. Thank you
Uh......Look at the Upcoming events section, Where it has been posted for over a week.
give that Mouse of yours some exercise..
Does anyone know if there are any plans for a Redbird farewell fan trip on the IRT lines?
It would be great to have one last opportunity to ride the Redbirds on the #1 line, the #3 to Lenox Terminal and New Lots, etc.
- Jim (RailBus)
Redbirds won't be running up the Broadway Line above 96th St anytime soon - electrical conduit is temporarily causing a clearance problem for these cars.
--Mark
The contractor installing new lighting on the Broadway IRT above 96th Street put some conduit on the tunnel roof in an improper manner, which caused it to foul Redbirds. The problem is to be repaired, at the contractor's expense, next month.
David
how can the r62's (with their receeding
silver foreheads) breeze by.. and the redbirds
get klunked?
The cars are nearly identical in dimensions...NEARLY. Apparently there's enough of a difference to affect the Redbirds but not the R-62As.
David
Regarding the Redbird restriction on the #1/9, I'm assuming that the roof profile may be the reason why. There was a similar problem on Boston's Red Line in 1985 when the new Harvard station opened. The MBTA installed security cameras which overhang on the lower (inbound) platform near the platform edge. They must have tested the clearances with the 01500/01600 series cars, because after the line opened early in the morning the newer cars cleared the cameras without a problem. A few hours later, however, the first trains of the older 01400's made their way out on the line, and the first of these trains to enter the new Harvard southbound station struck and destroyed the new cameras one by one! The motorman quickly stopped his train before all of the cameras were taken out, and the remaining undamaged cameras were quickly removed. It was later determined that the different roof profile on the 01400's was the culprit - these cars had a flatter roof than the newer cars, and the roof curved more abruptly near the car sides. The 01500/01600's by comparison have a more gradual curve to their roofs.
I suspect that a similar difference in car dimensions is the reason that the R-62's can clear the conduit boxes on the Broadway line, but the Redbirds snagged them. And I'll bet that when the work was done, they tested the clearances with the 62's and assumed that all cars would clear.
- Jim (RailBus)
You can catch a Redbird to New Lots on weekdays when the 2's and 5's lay-up at Livonia after rush hours. Just wait at Utica for one to come through...
Also check out the "Comming Events" section on this site for the August special trip ... the "observation car" seats are already sold out.
Also, R36-Gary, from the BusTalk side, has been talking to me about a less formal "Field Trip". It almost came off next wednesday, now it's delayed a few weeks & will probally include some non-Red Birds in Brooklyn.
Mr t__:^)
I don't think the triplexes were that good, they probably graduated Magna Cum Laude. Does anybody know for sure?
A friend of mine asked me a question after the Yankee game today, we were standing on a very crowded southbound platform.A redbird was jammed packed full of people, so we couldnt get on that train.there was a man with a microphone standing at the end of the platform.Who does the Platform Supervisor talk to in the mike?Does he radio a train operator? or does he talk to personel at a specific command center?After the redbird left, a R-62 came right behind it.Do they have a system for Yankee home games.I know at Shea they stack up trains in the middle track beyond Willets Point station.I dont know if they still do this at Shea Stadium or not.
I was at a Mets night game last week, and there were several trains stacked up on the express tracks between Willets Point Blvd. and Main Street - Flushing. I left around the 8th inning, and was surprised to see one of those empty trains on the express tracks come into the station to pick up passengers headed for Times Square. When I've gone to Mets games in the past, I have assumed that those layup trains don't go into service until the game is over.
>>I left around the 8th inning,and was surprised to see one of those empty trains on the express tracks come into the station to pick up passengers headed for Times Square>>
Redbirds know a SubTalker when they see one.
[Redbirds know a SubTalker when they see one]
I was not as lucky as your comment suggests. I was headed to Flusing Main Street, not Times Square! (If the truth be known, I didn't have to wait that long for my train.)
They start sending those trains at the end of the 7th, since that's when people start to leave. I've NEVER left a ballgame early, and that includes the 16-0 blowout last July at the hands of the Braves.
-Hank
[I've NEVER left a ballgame early]
I don't leave Mets games early very often, but when I do, it's generally because I have my wife with me. She's not a real baseball fan! She was with me last week, and the Mets definitely had things under control, for once.
If he was wearing a big black cowboy hat, he is a very good Train Service Supervisor. The radio he has is the same as the T/Os and CRs use. When the crowd warrants it, he will call Control asking for one of the baseball specials to come into 161 St. Control will notify the tower at Mosholu Yard to release the train. The trains (usually 3 of them) are kept on the middle track north of 167 St. When released, they will run express to Bowling Green, discharge and then run back up to the yard empty.
Yes he was wearing a black cowboy hat thanks for the info
The D has extra service too, they will put in an extra D that most of the time is a resigned R68A B with only the end signs changed. Some run express Bronx/Manhattan and even Brooklyn. Some run express to 57th Street, local to West 4th then out of service.
I love catching the Yankee Special that is express in Brooklyn!!
Can anyone tell me if any of the MVM's in Brooklyn have Mike Piazza in them. I need a few more for me a some frends them I help out with there collections. Thank for anyone help.
Robert
Got mine from Columbus Circle. I got Armando Benitez from GCT.
-Hank
anyone have info on R142's going into revenue service June 15th?
Well, I will be at 42-TS from 7:55 to 8:20 looking for it on the 2. If its there, great!. If not, I've screwed myself out of extra sleep before one big-assed regents exam.
Does the NYS regents board have anything to do with giving and marking the exams? I think its the Board of Ed. The department has the same name as the exam but the board of regents only makes up educational policies. More info anyone?
The University of the State of New York creates and grades the Regents exams. NY and California are the only states with Regents. Dammit! I am taking the Global History one tomorrow, and next week I have three more!!
-Daniel
yeah but the global regents is so easy. I didnt learn anything in the last 2 years of global and I got everything on the Jun 99/Jan 2000 regents I took.
The R-142's will not begin the 30 day test until the LAST WEEK OF JUNE OR THE FIRST WEEK OF JULY. It has been postponed due to more testing that is not completed yet. I confirmed this today. The bombardier set might start later than that.
I said it once and I'll say it again, I told this board about a month ago that the Bombarider set was the trouble maker, while the Kawasaki set was hot-to-trot! BUT NO!!!!!!!!!
Kawasaki Rules! R142A Rules!
Flxible Metro B #3511
what da hell does everybody have against bombardier? what specifically was wrong with that it considered a piece of crap? it seems fine to me? what mechanical problems does it have and is it major?
Here is the problem. Bombardier Thunder Bay (former UTDC) has a better Quality Control procedure than the current set up at Plattsburgh, NY. The Platsburgh facility has been notorious for poor quality work and lack of quality control. The R62A's that were produced by them was the starting point for these issues. Kawasaki showed Bomardier how to build the R62 series cars from start to finish with 10 shells and engineers from Kawasaki's Kobe, Japan plant. Once work had been started on the R62A order, Bombardier had built these cars with Westinghouse components which were known to be problematic and the TA wanted the cars to have these components. When the first 10 car set arrived to 240th Street yard the TA was displeased with the cars due to them having severe electrical problems related to the Westinghouse components and ordered Bombardier to change the components to General Electric if Westinghouse could not fix the problem or Bombardiers contract would be canceled immediately. I found this information in the book called "The Evolution of NYC Subway Cars" by Gene Sansone. Alot of great information is found in this book. It's expensive but it great to have. Anyhow, Bombardier had not got any better in the case of craftsmanship. There have been numerous horor stories of how the test unit of the R142 ran of the track and seperated from its trucks, which you can find out here on Subtalk's past posts. Well sorry to be long winded but I like to be through in information. I will say this in closing. I hope the R142's perform well and will hopefully bring an end to their not so well liked reputation here in the lower region of North America.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, what's that book say about R68s, and R68As? Just curious.
Oh my God! The bodies of the R142s actually separated from the trucks? Who's monitoring Quality Control up there in Platsburgh? Bozo the Clown? Bombardier has some nice-looking, quality products coming out of its other plants like the Talent DMUs (Germany) and the Croydon (England) LRVs as well as Boston's new Red Line Cars. And from what I've seen and read, those products seem to be performing well.
I agree it really is the Quality Control in that plant that's causing all the problems with the products coming out of Plattsburgh. Amtrak's Acela Express trains are being made there and look at all the trouble they've been having. Bombardier needs to do one of two things, get that plant up to par or shut it down. Adtranz needs to do the same with its Elmira plant. Let the morons in Albany bitch about it. They're the ones who caused all the problems by insisting that the R142s be built in New York State. But Bombardier and Adtranz need to address the quality problems in their upstate New York plants. They can make quality products elsewhere. Why can't they do it in New York?
Today!!!!!!!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?????????????!?!?!??!?!?!???
"
V
Nope, weren't on either the 2 or the 6. Try again Monday.
Try again in July. Based on this post the first motorman in revenue service will be one of our own.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Tunnels: Digging In"
Tonite (Wed) on Discovery Channel.
11 PM EASTERN / 8 PM PACIFIC
Tunneling under cities and mountains; tunnels in Los Angeles, New York and Switzerland.
watching the show at 8pm eastern time, repeated at 11pm this evening on discovery channel. check out the 63 street tunnel connector segment,its hot!!!
Yeha, it was pretty neat. I especially liked the segment on Metro. If only they could have done something like that on New york.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Hey all,
Rob Hutchinson of Toronto has sent me the first two installments of his guide to the Toronto Streetcar System. Lots of new pictures!
Thanks Rob!
--Dave
Also look to the Kenosha Streetcar opening on June 17, 2000 With Toronto PCC Streetcars 4610 and 4616 in the spotlight
4610 is in Toronto TTC Colors but 4616 is now bright yellow with green stripes reminicanct of her sisters from Cincinatti that served Toronto so well for so many years.
The Party begins at 12:00 noon and ends a 6:00 PM. Live Music, food will be available. Free streetcar rides will be available and bus service is free all day. (Ride bus 5 to the North Shore Station) The presentation and beginning of service at 12:30 PM. Metra arrives from Chicago at 12:15 PM. If the Train is late we will wait for you. The return train to Chicago is at 6:49 PM.
I will send pictures to Dave next week.
Regular service will begin on Monday, June 19, 2000, Monday through Friday from 11:00 AM to 7:05 PM and Saturday from 10:00 AM to 5:30 PM.
The fare for all rides this summer is a nostalgic $.25
Is there any way to change ends of a train without dumping and charging all over again?
I read a while ago that a LIRR MU can do this. The engineer puts the handle in coast and quickly switches to full service, removes the key or something like that. Can anyone explain how its done?
Back in the days of the R-44 & R-46 with P-wire this was done regularly. Especially on the R-44, where dumping the train frequently led to no P-wire when recharged. However, that was pre 1990.
Today, it can't be done under normal operating practices. However, It can be done using a process known as quick charging. Most T/O s gain the feel to perform a quick-charge very quickly
Back in the days of the R-44 & R-46 with P-wire this was done regularly. Especially on the R-44, where dumping the train frequently led to no P-wire when recharged. However, that was pre 1990.
Today, it can't be done under normal operating practices. However, It can be done using a process known as quick charging. Most T/O s gain the feel to perform a quick-charge very quickly
How is the quick charge done?
Wait until the brake pipe is charge part of the way (pounds ?)
and moving the handle into coast?
Essentially, yes but it's more by feel than by numbers.
Anyone know about the PATCO rail line?
Is this one of the few lines with ATO?
The cab signals are red, red/yellow, yellow, green/yellow, green.
I know the top speed is 65 MPH. What are the other speeds?
If Im right the LIRR MUs have a notch on the controllers for this.
I assume that the NYCTA will have this no time soon.
There is PATCO info on this website: before clicking on SubTalk, scroll down: Under "AROUND NEW YORK & THE WORLD" click on "Philadelphia".
The other speeds, in your color order, are 0, 20, 30, and 40.
Bob
The speeds are not that definate, but more of a range. If you look on the Speed-o-meter on the train it is colour coded to match the corresponding cab signal. Like 0-20 is R/Y and anything over 40 is green. Red is not a cab signal per say. The red light goes on when the train is over the proscribed cab signal speed although if the train was waiting for a home signal the speed might be 0 and the red would be on all the time. On my ride home I'll get the real speeds for you.
Why don't PATCO cars have a digital speedometer like the B-IVs?
Don't forget that the first order of Patco cars were delivered in
1969, (15?) years before the B-IVs were sending all those wonderful
I/II/III's to the scrap heap.
I'm guessing that a speedometer on a train (in general) was a
novelty at that point. :D
Yes, that makes sense. But of course they could have ordered them for the Vickers cars, which obviously they did not do.
Why do all these BMT/IND cars (R40M R42 R44 R46 R68 R68A) look basically the same?
-Daniel
I guess because stainless steel has been the only way to go when making subway cars for the past few decades. Only differences I see are that the R44/46/& 68's have colored seats while the R40M & R42 cars have what look like metal seats. Plus, the R40M's & 42's don't chime when closing, while the latter 4 do chime. That's all I can think of.
What about forward facing seating? Fake wood appliques on the ends? R44s have a fast bing-bong chime, R46s have the b-i-n-g b-o-n-g chime, as well as non standard couplers and a myraid of other differences
The R-44s and R-46s have the same Ohio Brass coupler, which AFAIK will be found on the R-142s as well. The old reliable H-2-C coupler is no longer manufactured.
Last fall, I encountered some R-44s with very sluggish doors which closed at about the same rate as the doors on the BMT standards.
Umm, metal paneling on the R-68. R-68s have T/O cabs on both ends, one transverse, one not.
Why shouldn't they look the same? If you have a good design, why change it? Change for change sake alone is not always good. Look at Mayor Lindsay's fiasco of the original R40s that needed the safety gates added.
(Ha!), I certainly agree
Pretty much the MTA family look that was created with the Ml and M2 cars, on the suburban routes. The R40M was first, begat the R42, then the R44 and R46... guess by the time the R68 came out it didn't make sense to change it. Those who remember or have seen pix of NYCT and older suburban cars in the 70's the silver paint with blue stripe was common to all lines except the New Haven which got an orange stripe (on M2's). Silver paint referring to conventional steel cars. In the case of NYCT [unfortunately] thi is assuming you could see the car's paint under the graffitti.
That is correct! The MTA went to the design team of Sudenberg-Ferrar, I think that is the correct spelling. This design company was responsible for the design of the R40M and the R44's which lead to their varriants repectively (R42 & R46). You could not have said it better! As the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke! Don't fix it!"
P.S.
Sudenberg-Ferrar was also who the MTA went to for the design of the M1/M2 cars for the Metro North/LIRR.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
There also isn't much you can do to change the appearence of a subway car. Even the R32 resembles the R1!
-Hank
Please. Do you want to make me cry? My beloved R1-9, the High-v, Low V and old BMT;the R32 was from another world and age! For that matter one could say all boxcars look alike..in a way they do, but then...Just a silly thought that's not important. Long live the memories of rivited steel cars, traction motor growls, chugging compressors, incandescent lights etc etc etc. [jointed rail sounds too]
Well, both were 60 feet long, had four sets of doors per side; bulkhead route and destination signs, marker lights, and backlit side destination signs. That's where the similarity ends.
Because the then-newly formed Metropolitan Transportation Authority (in 1968) wanted its fleet to have a uniform style.
Not much has changed since.
--Mark
Newly formed?
The M.T.A. was created in 1968.
Peace,
ANDEE
Except for the blue stripe, which is no longer applied.
Which lines still run R42s? the JMZ?
-Daniel
Correct, also the "L" has some.
Peace,
ANDEE
If you believe that 60 feet and 75 feet look equal, or these cars appearing identical, you need to get more fresh air, I would suggest the 1st car on a 10 car R40S set, on downgrade from the Manhattan Bridge. Put your nose to the window and inhale the steel dust and smell of the third rail shoe when it enters a gap. No duplicate.
If its a good car, why change it? Other than ADA requirements or new technology, its best to leave the cars the same. Here in DC, we've been using the same design for 24 years and it is great. The next shipment will have flashing lights when the doors close and an interior sign displaying the next stop, and a different color scheme, but otherwise, it will be the same.
I was playing this new game by Interactive Broadcasting, LTD called Age of Adventure.
I chose to be an American citizen, and after I was done exploring the Crystal Palace in London, I decided to return to New York (it starts in London automatically). When I did, I discovered the greatest railfan treat, a ride on the Third Avenue El.
The game is one of those where you walk around exploring and doing things. It's new, so I don't know what the ultimate goals are but as you can surmise from the above, it's based in the victorian era.
Visit IB if you're interested. If you happen to bump into Abraham Isaac Jacobs while you are there, you'd have bumped into me.
I've already found a few errors in New York, so don't mention it.
Park Avenue South, ha!
You know who all subway lines are color coded - i.e. Broadway/7 Aveneue IRT is red, 8 Avenue IND is blue, Flushing IRT is purple, Brooklyn-Queens crosstown IND is light green, 6 Avenue IND is orange, Broadway BMT is yellow, etc. When did that begin exactly? I heard it was in the 60's, but I'd like to know when exactly.
"Broadway-7 Avenue/Woodlawn/Flushing/Queens Blvd/6 Avenue/8 Avenue/Culver Jorge" Catayi
Check out the Subway FAQ on this website for the information you are looking for.
Each line was assigned its own color starting in 1967. The current assignments of having each route on the same Manhattan trunk line carry the same color began in 1979.
[The current assignments of having each route on the same Manhattan trunk line carry the same color began in 1979]
This leads to some serious misnaming of lines, especially by tourists. I overheard someone say on a Grand Central-bound Shuttle train that they would transfer to the GREEN line after getting off. I said to myself "If you want the Green Line, go to Boston or Washington." Color coding by trunk route eliminates the individuality of the routes. I am currently in the process of making a map that uses the 1967 colors (Except the R, which will get the EE's orange, and the 5 to E 238 St, which will keep its green color.)
This will restore the individuality of each route and discourage the use of naming each trunk line by color. If you want a GREEN line, go to Boston or Washington. Same goes with BLUE and RED. If you want the ORANGE or YELLOW line, go to Washington. If you want the PURPLE or BROWN lines, go to Chicago. THERE ARE NO LINES THAT GO BY THOSE COLORS IN NEW YORK!
I know what you mean, but if I was visiting Chicago today, I would go by the color rather than the names.
The only reason Chicago can use individual colors for each line is that there aren't nearly as many El routes as there are Subways. I think the system of using the colors by which line is a TRUNK line is the best. Without that, you'd have 15 different colors. And that is NOT counting what would happen if the 7 express became the 11, if the Dyre express became the 14, etc. etc.. Has anyone ever actually tried to read those 60s and 70s era maps? They're impossible! The best maps are the old Unified ones that use three colors: One for IRT, BMT and IND each. And then after that you go by the line name (i.e. Brighton, Sea Beach, Myrtle). But second to that, if you HAVE to color-code, I can't see anything beating the current system. Imagine with all of the expresses carrying different numbers...it would sound like
"I'm going to get on the somewhat light greenish yellow that's darker than the G but lighter than the R train. Then I'll transfer to the medium green, not like the meduim light green but just the medium green line."
Let's face it - there are only so many primary colors. If they want to split some lines in two, I believe Pink hasn't been used yet. Other than that, who wants to tell the difference between Light Blue, Blue, and Dark Blue? NO ONE DOES.
And besides.... if you are staying on Manhattan, pretty much ANY trains of the same color DOES go where you want. For instance if i wanna go from El Barrio to 14th, it is easier to say "Green" then "4, 5, or 6".
End of story
"The only reason Chicago can use individual colors for each line is that there aren't nearly as many El routes as there are Subways."
The color system works very well here in Chicago -- as long as we don't add any more routes. With Red, Blue, Green, Orange, Brown, Yellow, and Purple, CTA has boxed up all the easily-distinguished colors. Whenever speculation, usually among railfans online, turns to a new L route, the inevitable humorous question is what the color would be. Pink? (How do you distinguish pink from a faded red?) Plaid? (Whose tartan?) For obvious (mapmaking, not racial) reasons, Black or White just won't do.
There's always silver or gray, or my proposal to consolidate the CTA Yellow and Purple lines into the Red Line. That would free up a couple more colors. (My proposal would also add route letters to distinguish various express/local stopping patterns and terminals, a.k.a. New York.)
Or we could just name the different lines after their various RGB values, similar to the format used in HTML. The Blue Line would then become the 0000FF Line. :-)
-- David
Boston, MA
The colors are an improvement in Chicago.
I know about the names, and they are useful and informative and necessary in the case of Englewood (Ashland)/Jackson Park (63rd) or Congress (Forest Park)/Douglas (Cermak).
What about the directional names once common:
West-Northwest
West-South
North-South
North-Northwest (I think)
That had to be the craziest system.
I don't recall ever seeing a "North-Northwest" route. You may be thinking of the Ravenswood line, which has always been named Ravenswood to my knowledge.
I agree that the color names make a lot of sense for Chicago, and people seem to have embraced them. I think the CTA's biggest problem in terms of wayfinding on the system inolves the station signage. On some Blue Line stations it's not uncommon to see signs referring to "Douglas-Congress-O'Hare" trains, "West-Northwest" trains, Blue Line to "Des Plaines", or the correct Blue Line to Forest Park. I think there's even a few "Douglas-Congress-Milwaukee" signs floating around the system. Most Chicagoans know that these designations all refer to the same thing, but tell that to some tourist or business traveler who just got off the plane at O'Hare for his first visit to Chicago.
The CTA needs to do a much better job of keeping their signage uniform and consistent, as well as updating it as soon as possible when a route changes. Almost all the new signage follows a uniform style, but in most cases they don't bother taking down the signs that were there before. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with the MBTA, although some of the maps still show the E branch of the Green Line going to Aborway. However, all the stations have very uniform signage located in consistent places in each station. This certainly makes the system much easier to navigate for first-time visitors (such as myself not too long ago). NYC also seems to do a pretty good job with their signage, considering how massive of a system it is.
(On a somewhat related topic, has anybody noticed that the automated voice on the new Bombarier Red Line cars sounds suspiciously like one of those agents from the movie "The Matrix"?)
-- David
Boston, MA
One more thing: The Washington stop on the Red Line was broken up into two stops at least a year ago, with the northern stop designated as the Lake Street stop. All the new maps say "Lake" and the automated announcements announce the stop as "Lake", but all the station signage still says "Washington." This confuses the hell out of a lot of people, especially since many people plan to exit the Red Line at the real Washington to transfer to the Blue Line. The signs throw them off and they end up exiting the train one station too soon. The situtation has been like this for at least a year and so far the CTA has made no effort to change the station signage at Lake. Wake up, CTA!
-- David
Boston, MA
{"The CTA needs to do a much better job of keeping [its] signage uniform and consistent...."}
The same could be said for NYCT's conductor announcements. I've seen too many people, natives and tourists, get lost looking for the B at Fulton Street because some conductors still announce "BMT" instead of the actual route letters.
Grey could be used; also light blue and light green as well as pink (magenta on the map). Tan could also be used, although it could confuse with brown or yellow.
wayne
The problem with light blue and light green is that, while they won't be confused visually with dark blue and dark green (although the blue used for the Blue Line is a sort of mid-range blue, not really dark like navy blue but not pale like a pastel blue either), the names are too long, if not faintly ridiculous. "Change here for the Light Blue line." :^)
Tan, pink, and gray (or is that grey?) are great as words, but tan and pink can be confused with brown (as you stated) and red, and grey doesn't really show up well on a map.
Alas, it's all a moot point anyway. The only improvements that RTA and CTA are even considering are extensions of existing lines, not new routes.
And think of this part: color coding could be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act...remember, if someone is colorblind, and you start a system with blue, light blue, dark blue, off-blue, etc. it would be a huge problem!
DC was hard enough...let's not do it to NYC too!
Chip
Yeah my boss always refers to "Taking a blue up to port authority" even though it drives me nuts. I wonder what he'd say if he were going somewhere on central park west.
My college roomate got into trouble because of this color thing at 3 am one day when he grabbed a queens bound 'N' instead of an 'R' because hey, they're both yellow, and that's all the matters, so.... Then suddenly found himself quite lost.
I've always felt that more people get thrown for a loop by accidentally taking an express instead of a local, especially in Manhattan on the IRT. The IND is a bit more forgiving in midtown because there are so few local-only stations south of 59th St.
I often wonder how many "nobody told us it was an express" stories have been told through the years. I know I've heard a few myself.
I believe I saw those same exact tourists get on at 42st Grand Central. I told them not to refer to them by color, since nobody else does. When they asked what they should refer to them by, I said either the letter / number or the street. They boarded the Green line, but got off the Lexington line.
I also saw a tourist group board a downtown B, and they knew perfectly well that nobody calls them by color but they did so anyway because it's 'easier'. Well, they'll stop that after they get to this which I saw on their itinerary after the Empire State Bldg.
Take the orange line uptown 6 stops from 34st. to the Museum of Natural History.
Lets see, will they end up at Queensbridge, Queens Plaza, 145st, or 81st.? I doubt that last one; it was a Saturday.
It seems that New Yorkers have either a contempt for tourists or for change.
What IS wrong with using the colors, if I'm going from the World Trade Center to the Port Authority (assume) then would I take the Blue line or the A, C, E? The A, C, E is more unwieldly, and that line doesn't run exclusively under 8th Avenue.
I don't use the colors because I'm not used to them, but if the only reason not to use them is because the dumb toursts do, that's just wrong.
Actually, what NYC Transit has is a "family" of Green Lines, a "family" of Orange Lines, etc., with one or more routes within each family. One could easily refer to "the Blue Line" (or "Blue Lines") consisting of Routes A, C, and E.
Sometimes, I'll even instruct tourists to "follow the signs with the Green route numbers" or "take any train in Orange to 34th Street."
Most people are intelligent enough to figure out that routes which share a color are probably related in some important way, even though the color scheme isn't explicitly described anywhere.
An excellent explanation. It really helps tourists, especially non English speaking tourists if you are able to tell them to take the train marked "A" on the blue line.
What I meant to say for that was that all routes going from point A to Point B via Point C get the same color when lines split. For example, the 9 parallels the 1 along the entire route, and gets the same color as the 1. A new route paralleling an old route along its entire length gets the same color as the old route.
Some time back I joyfully agreed with another post about the longevity of the IRT High-V's, exceed ed only by the Q cars and mentioned a few other types that tied the High-v's record. Guess I need to clarify that the Only High-v's that topped 50 years were the l904-05 Gibbs and the l907 Deckroofs. The standard motors (Low-v style) lived l9l0-58 at the most, the trailers l9l5-58 the latest. To add to the over 50 club, and I'm sure there are others: NY Central's l907 MU's run until l962; The BMT el BU's l300's l905-l958; The oldest of the Manhattan el MUDC cars l902-l955; the first group of Market St el [Philly] cars l907-l960. I already mentioned the Lackawanna MU's l93l-85 {and some of the trailers were converted from l9l5 or so steam coaches.)
06/15/2000
Was that because they knew how to make cars that lasted or because they couldn't afford to replace them sooner ??
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>>> Was that because they knew how to make cars that lasted or because they couldn't afford to replace them sooner ?? <<<<<<<
Bill;
I think it is a combination of the factors that you mentioned. There were no new cars built during WW II which probably added a few years to the life of the original stock, and as long as the old Els were in operation, the light weight old cars had a home.
The original cars were much simpler than those made after 1950. The new more complicated technology brought additional problems which contributed to the demise of the American car builders, and a much shorter service life for the newer equipment.
It seems that products (any products) made during this era did not have "planned obsolescent". Or that the work ethics of the new immigrants was much stronger then compare to what it is today. To me, the end of WWII is when planned obsolescent was part of the design of a product to ensure people will again buy replacement products from the same source. The suggestion of a "NEW AND IMPROVED" item creates a demand for a given item, making a useful item old and ready to be thrown out. Even passengers begin to notice on what and how they are riding to work in compare new or older equipment.
Railcars built in the 1910-1930 seems to hold up better than the ones built in the 70s-now. How much percentage of direct and indirect labor cost is part of finished product? It this the factor in which why subway cars cost over $1 million each? Is an Asian build subway car build better because of a better work ethics? Will the 35 year theory hold true for stuff the NYCT is getting today as last through 2035?
Enough of my theory of why some subway cars last as long as they did. What's your thinking?
The MTA is being put so deep in debt that I doubt it will be able to afford to buy any new cars between 2004 and 2025. What will that mean for the fleet?
The entire IRT system will have been replaced since 1980 -- the oldest of these cars will be approaching 50 years old. The R32s will be 60 years old, the R44s and R46s nearly 60 years old.
One can only hope that because they are all stainless steel, the cars will last.
>>>>>>> It this the factor in which why subway cars cost over $1 million each <<<<<<<
Given inflation which has raised the price of a candy bar from $.05 to $.60, and the increase in technology involved in the new transit cars from air conditioning to ATO compatability, the increase in price of rolling stock is not so great.
It is hard to give a completely accurate answer to any of this. BUT you may not believe it but in a l9l0 era trade paper railcars were given an economic life of only 20 years. Yet how long they did last! I agree with your feelings of a better work ethic then on the other hand the immigrants labor force had to work hard compared to later generations. But craftsmanship was indeed a force. As for planned obsolescence I"m sure that didn't exist despite the fact that new techology was constantly coming out. I'll spare details but could go on for pages. Even in their old age the cars of the (I'll go back to about l902) to l930 seemed indestructible and did the jobs they were built for, made schedules, etc into old age. They had built in longevity. The postwar period brought a lot of changes not only in technology but improvement of the American lifestyle, and unfortunately was the beginning of the end of quality.The late 50's on seemed every contract of cars cut just a little more quality even though some were good performers. Roughly l970 seemed when things became junk. Not only railcars. On the topic of Asiains I have to admit I have never had a lemon Asian made TV
My Sony Trinitron TV will be 22 years old this August, and it still works great.
Like any other product, good design and proper maintenance go hand in hand. The older subway cars were simpler and well-designed. Look at the BMT standards and Triplexes. They were built to last and last, and the Triplexes especially were virtually maintenance-free. The R-1/9s, OTOH, were also well-designed, but were victimized first by deferred maintenance, then in their final years by neglect.
I have to admit I have never had a lemon Asian made TV.
I have to admit I have never had a lemon Asian made TV.
Lucky you! I've had two bad ones, one Motorola and one Sony, although my present Mitsubishi and Sony units are doing well - as is my 1986 Zenith.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A couple of weeks ago, I noticed for two days in a row, R-62a cars on the #3 line with a green #10 (circle). The signs were both on the car ends and on the side window signs. I'm sure it was posted here once before, but can anyone shed some light on this mysterious '10' train?
Thanks,
Jeff
The rollsigns go up to 14.
The TA is providing for potential new service and/or renumbering of certain existing express services (i.e. #5 Thru Express might become the #10, #6 Bronx Express might become the # 12-, the # 7 Queens Express might become the #14 - I think you get the idea).
The 11 sign is purple,
12 and 13 are red,
8, 10, and 14 are green.
Therefore if the 11 sign is purple, then obviously it will be #7 Local, #11 Express. Just as seen on those "fantasy subway maps" they have posted on this site.
Cool, I think that would ease lots of confusion among riders.
Were the car numbers in the early 1900s (somewhere between 1900 and 1920), and did it have a gold sticker under the number plate? If so, then it is the same one I saw a while back.
There has been a 5 car set of R-62a s signed up as a 10 floating about the subway for the past few months. I saw it up in the #2 yard sometime before the HBLR opened, around the same time someone spotted it running on the 7th ave line near nighttime. WHY IS IT EVERYWHERE? WHAT IS ITS PURPOSE?
Its very possible it is the same train - At least several cars in the train were signed up as #10. I saw it going southbound at 5pm at park place one day, then northbound at the same time at the same station the next day. Odd that if its still running around, why doesnt any TA personnel change the signs?????
I meant only a 5 car set. Half a train. Was the one you're talking about in service? If it was, it probably was tacked on to 4 singles on a 3 train after floating about, and the TA never got around to changing the signs. Mayhaps these cars will get a visit from my screwdriver sometime soon.
This topic comes up a lot. It seems to me that when people ask about it, they seem to think there's a mystery train #10 (or #11, #8, W whatever) and how come they haven't heard of it and why isn't it on the maps and where does it go or what's the big plan for this new route and why hasn't anyone told me?!?!?!?
Ever hear of Occam's Razor? It states that the simplest answer is usually the best/right one.
So how come people don't just assume that it's an additional letter for some future use, or possibly never to be used, set that way by some joker as a prank or someone who just didin't notice? And not a big conspiracy of the MTA to keep new routes from becoming public knowledge?
Of course, I think Occam had a second Razor, which states, the Simplest Answer is the One People Find Hardest to Believe.
-Dave
Yeah but you all don't KNOW about the cospiracy! Like the top-secret plan to run new "Y" express trains on the middle track on the "F" line, then use the local tracks as far as 4th St. Before switching to the 8th Av. tubes and running to 148th! You probably don't know about that one, eh?
I've seen the green 10 on several R62A 6 trains as well as on a five-car set of R62A's in Unionport Yard. I thought it was going to be some kind of new skip-stop service for the 6 line. Haven't seen it in a while though.
The BMT had a number 10 trains. It was the Myrtle-Chambers Lcl/Exp which ran between Metropolitan Avenue on the Myrtle Avenue El and Chambers Street on the Centre Street Line. Its been running since about 1914 although after Chrystie Street it was redisignated as the"M". It was the last home of the famous "Multis."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I got my ticket in the mail yesterday. It states that TA personnel will be at Columbus Circle telling ticketholders which entrance to use. This implies that you can enter the system there without paying a fare, just presenting a ticket. I imagine a similar arrangement would be in place at Coney Island lunchtime.
That would be convenient. I COULD just take a train right to Columbus Circle, but there's a nice coffee shop at 7th & 57th where I could have breakfast before the trip. This way I don't have to worry about paying again to enter the system.
Hope to see some Subtalkers on board!
The wording in the ad
at the Times Square Visitors Center
states "Included in your trip is a
stopover at NY's underground experience
the Transit Museum.. Nostalgia Train
to Coney Island"...
Does the trip include park admission
or is it just a swing-by turn-around?
Usually a lunch stop at Stillwell Ave only. Grab your frank and get back on the train within one hour.
>a lunch stop at Stillwell Ave only...
::memoirs of a recent Stillwell Av. frog legs
expedition with Mr. Thurston and Mr. BMT Man
and Mr. Pirmann... himself.
I Suggest you bring a lunch, because if they park at Stillwell you will be spending your whole lunch hour taking photos of her from every angle :-)
Mr t
What they've done on fan trips in the past, not just the D-Types but also the Low-V trips, is that after they discharge the passengers for lunch the train heads to a yard for the duration. So it's unlikely it will be sitting around Stillwell Ave. station during the lunch break.
-Dave
There will probably be a stop at the Transit Museum where you can get off and walk around, if that's what you mean by "park admission". It doesn't include admission to any of the Coney Island..um.. attractions I guess you could call them. But there should be time during lunch to go up in the Astroland tower (does that thing have a real name? Anyone want to join me so we can get pictures from it?) or ride the Cyclone on your own dollar.
Wish I could be there Dave - rollercoasters, subways, trams, all the same to me.
Simon
Swindon UK
I wouldn't be at all surprised if they have everyone board from the center platform. I'll be there in spirit. Give my regards to the Triplexes. With any luck, maybe someday I can experience them myself.
The center platform at 59th St. will be used for boarding.
Peace,
ANDEE
What time? I want to watch it leave.
06/17/2000
[What time? I want to watch it leave.]
The posted time is 10:00AM for departure at 59th St./Columbus Circle. Unused center platform will be used.
Bill "Newkirk"
I had the opportunity yesterday to see the latest MTH toy train catalog, and was half disappointed to see there were no new subway sets, or add-on cars to existing sets listed.
I did see something that looked rather nice to me. MTH is offering another PCC car, this one painted in New Jersey Transit colors, and is illustrated wearing #12 (is that prototypical?). It is so unusual to see anything with less than a four digit number. The car is offered with two different sound systems, and is priced at $130.00 & $230.00.
Limited production again with orders to be submitted by July 15th, for December delivery.
MTH is also offering a New York City Transit trolley numbered 6688.This does not seem to be modeled after anything (I'm not a trolley buff). It is very similar to the trolley that Lionel sold 45 years ago, which reversed direction when it bumped something. It is offered as a set with transformer,track and bumpers, and sells for $100.00. Order by July 15th, for October delivery.
Try to see the picture of the New Jersey Transit PCC. I thought it looke real nice! Both of the above are 0-27 or O gauge.
The R-21 set is in the MTH 2000 Vol #2 catalog. The stock # is 30-2198-0 or 30-2198-1. It was originally slated for a November delivery but the set has been removed (???) from the delivery schedule on the MTH website. Since I have already put a deposit on several sets, I'm not overjoyed.
Do you suppose that shipment is delayed or has the set been cancelled because of insufficient orders?
The NJT PCCs were numbered 1-30, so yes, 12 is prototypical. I haven't seen the catalogue to know if anything else about the model is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
PCC 12? Yep, that's a Newark Trolley. They are 1-30 (except 3,8,18,29 and 30)
wayne
[MTH is also offering a New York City Transit trolley numbered 6688.]
They, actually he, was at Branford recently to record subway & trolley noises, maybe this is his way of saying thanks, as our R-17 was asked to make all of her noises for him ... Beep Beep
Mr t__:^)
Who remembers the funny little vending machines that used to be mounted on the vertical support pillars in the NYC subway stations? They sold small versions of national candy brands, particularly chewing gum by the stick. The floors of the subway used to be covered in the discarded chewing gum. I wonder why there are no longer vending machines? Maybe the economics of such small sales no longer make sense, or maybe they were just vandalized too frequently.
I think they were gone before vandalism raised its ugly head. They were mostly penny vending machines, and inflation probably resulted in their demise. What kind of profit would there be in paying servicemen to maintain penny vending machines?
They could always have been easily modified for nickels, dimes and eventually quarters.
I think both the vandalism and the fact that people thought the subway floor was FINE FOR DUMPING did them in.
I do not remember those vending machines having candy (except small individual Hersheys like you can buy in bags at super markets now) in them as much as peanuts or chewing gum or mints. They also had coin operated scales to weigh yourself for one penny.
The machines were simple one cent coin machines without the ability to make change or detect slugs. After all, who would want to counterfeit a penny coin?
At the time those machines were all over the subways it was possible to make money a penny at a time. The fare was just 5 cents, a daily newspaper was 3 cents and $1.00 per hour was considered a good wage for a working man.
Inflation was the biggest reason for the demise of those machines. It was not practical to convert them to collect two cents, and not profitable to sell at one cent and service the machines.
I did see some machines selling full size 5 cent candy bars in the early 50's, but as machines collected more money they became more attractive to those inclined to break into them.
The litter from the machines was also a problem, but I seem to remember a small litter receptacle attached to the pillar which held the vending machine. The worst problem that those machines contributed to was the used chewing gum on platforms, train floors and stuck under seats or under window sills.
I assume at some point the MTA or its predecessor agency found them more trouble than they were worth and terminated the license to have them in the stations.
06/15/2000
Well since we discussed gum and candy machines, does anybody remember the soda and ice cream machines. Soda dispensed in cups with crushed ice for a dime and ice cream bars and sandwiches also for a dime.
Then there was the wide red colored candy machine with the pull levers. They were notorious coin eaters. Once in a while at the soda machine after you dropped in your dime and made your choice, the cup wouldn't drop yet the crushed ice and soda came anyway.
BTW - There was also the machine that dispensed grapefruit juice. A rather large art deco looking machine.
Bill "Newkirk"
From the 1974 MTA Annual Report, pages 10-11:
"Vending machines will be eliminated from subway stations unless prospective vending contractors can give the Transit Authority definite assurances about the reliability, cleanliness and regularity of servicing of their machines.
"Any future vending operator must find ways to keep machines vandal-proof. In addition to providing assurances that equipment would be in working order at all times, a future vending contractor will be required to meet rigid standards for the cleanliness and appearance of each installation.
"Accordingly, entirely new design concepts will be required for any vending equipment that may go into our subways. A concern that seeks a vending contract must be prepared to provide acceptable designs for its equipment within fixed, well-lighted modules, which the vendor will be required to keep clean and at top operating efficiency.
"The company which operated all subway vending equipment for the past 20 years, had been on a month-to-month basis since its last contract expired on January 30, 1974. The company notified the Authority on May 29 that it would not extend its contract after June 30. Removal of its 6,000 pieces of equipment has been completed. For the past two years the Transit Authority received only the contractual minimum of $150,000 annually. The company's equipment was in about 95 per cent of the Authority's 462 stations. Some 3,000 public lockers, also operated on subway stations, are not affected by the termination of this vending contract."
David
This is right up some peoples alley
METROCARD ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
It's interesting that everyone's interested in collecting metrocards but no one's interested in collecting metrocard holders which I think are far more fun. I have the entire subway systems from around the world series from '99. I couldn't find a single listing of metrocard holders on EBay.
When the Subway Systems holders first came out there was someactivity on eBay. There was some interest in some oftheother holdersbut it diedout.
As for the articl,I thought it was not bad.
As for the last show - BORING. I happened to be in the area so I stopped in. The space is brighetr but not much bigger than the old place in the restaurant.
Considerably less people were there and it was basically the same old,same old (everyone has the same cards).
One guy had a stack(I mean at least 100 or more)of one of the Subway Series 2000 cards. What good is that? All he proved is that he has a connection who probably withheld all those cards from going into the MVMs. He willwind up with most of thosecards going no where. When one person has that many of a general issue then the value is going to be very low (a/k/a "flooding the market").
I think that Gary should not have these shows more than twice a year because interest is going to wane after a while.
I also think that there should be some sort of show related to collecting and trading/selling Transit Memorabilia (other than the ERA auction). If the MetroCard show couldbe expanded to include that,there would be alot more interest. They wouldneed a bigger place though.
Just my 2 cents
What is your opinion about the best subway door chimes or horn. To get the ball rolling I have been taking note of the sounds on the Philly lines. first PATCO has a telephone bell instead of a chime and I think it works quite well. The PATCO horns are also nice, but out side of the tunnles they sound more like a buzzer than a horn. Once in the confines of the subway it becomes aparent that they produce a chord rather than a single tone and the effect with all the resonnance is quite nice.
The Broad St. line trains have an almost railroad like horn. It has a high pitch and there is very little varation in the tone throughout the duration of the blast. The BSL door chimes on the other hand are lame in that instead of a traditional beep boop they are like a beep beep.
The MLF horn sounds almost entirely like a fire alarm buzzer instead of a locomotive horn, even in the tunnles. I declare it "Worst of Philly". The chimes are a stanrard beep boop, but are somewhat overshaddowed by the automated "doors are closeing" vioce.
the R/1-9 air whistle, sounded like a teapot that was over ready, I hope heypaul is reading.
avid
of course i am reading your posts... i have been assigned to monitor your actions 24 hours a day...
i have a recording of an r9 whistle...
r9 whistle
I cant open it
Heypaul, is that the whistle at the beginning of the LL ride on your tape? That's the portion with all the air compressor sounds.
the whistle is the one at the beginning of the LL tape... i think the motorman was blowing to get the tower's attention... i think that was the only time i caught a whistle being blown... and yeah the compressor's really chug away at the beginning of that tape...
The R-1/9s have my vote for the best all-around subway sounds. They were music to my ears!
I miss the old IRT LO-V whistles....
....But the noise that had me laughing was the door-closing horns of the Paris Metro. Rather than a New York subway "doorbell", or a Chicago CTA "chime", it was an NBA "Timeout" horn.
..Then, of course, I'm partial to the old tape recording at Union Square "ATTENTION ALL PASSENGERS.....PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE MOVING PLATFORM...." etc.
Paris needs the loud horn for the way the doors close. I think they were inspired by the guillotine.
I like the new Toronto T-1/MTA R-142 door chimes from Bombardier. It's a pre-closing 1 chime followed by 3 door closing chimes. The sound is just like the PA cars from PATH with the extra chimes. The R142A/110A has that beeping thing that continues until the doors are closed, to me that is so so, but not my favorite.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
i think that is kind of cool the closing doors of the R 142 its nice and it isn't ear piercing like some of the door chimes on the older models. they have that in toronto? wow i haven't been there in years. now that must eliminate the blowing of the wistle by the conductor (i think)
Yes! I was surprised as well! I recently visted one of the Canadian Transit sites, I have to check my bookmarks. Anyhow, this site retrived information from the TTC and Bombardier Thunder Bay the former UTDC (Urban Transit Development Corporation), that the T1 cars were designed to be the next generation of subway car for North America. With that in mind the new R142's from Bombardier are based on the T1 car and this meets Bombardier's expectation to get this car type to the rest of the country. Let's hope we have the same luck that TTC has had with their T1's. The R142 was changed to meet the MTA's standards of course. The mechanics of the car though are similar to the T1. Hope this helps.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
For horns and chimes, the reverse door chime on a select few cars is great (SIR #466, and one R-62, 199? I think), and the PATH test DC-style door chime on 880 (don't know if its still there). The horn on a few SIR cars is pretty cool too, sorta like that of a NJT MU.
Other great sounds:
The sound of a Bombardier 142 accellerating, a redbird charging up, a train on the S. Ferry inner loop while on the train, an R-44 releasing the brakes, and an R-46 releasing the brakes and accellerating.
I like that R-46 combination you speak of: the "sssssssss" followed by an ascending "whoo-ooooooooooo-oooo".
Then there were the unique compressor and door sounds of the R-10s.
I like the oddball R46 door chimes, like #5910, #6119, #5927 etc. where they don't conform to the D#-B or E-C notes. #6119 has an particularly SOUR bell. And the #6022-3-5-4 bunch is all over the scale.
I liked the ORIGINAL DC Metro BREDA car chimes (2000 and 3000 series only - ping-ping - 2G's above HI C and 2E's above HI C. WMATAGMOAGH - when did they change them?), they've standardized them all now, using the same bell as we have here on the R44/R62/R68 classes (NOT the R46, too many different/out-of-tune bells on them) and they have added the following verbage: "Doors Opening." "Doors Closing" and if someone holds the door "Please Stand Clear of the Doors. THANK YOU".
wayne
Woah, they changed the door chimes in DC!!! I liked the light bell-like sound that there was when I visited back in '95. I guess path car #880 is the only place to hear it now.
I take it 6022-3-5-4 emits a nice polychord, then. Some of those R-46 door chimes have really rattled my fillings.
Jersey Mike:
I think that the best soung for the door chimes would be the ones the TA is currently using on the R-44, R-46, R-62&R-62A, and R-68&R-68A cars with the high-low chimes.
BMTJeff
For old and new. What were the different types of vendors on the system? I can remember gum amchines, soda, candy and news stands, for starter.
Now news stands and beggers.
Did I miss anything?
avid
Today in part 3 of "Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Subway Opionon Questions Because He Ran Out of Posts With Real Substance About a Week Ago" I ask you all what is better, the Railfan window or the Wodniw Nafliar. For those of you too un creative to determine what the Wodniw Nafliar is on your own it is simple the inverse railfan window or the railfan window on the last car, facing backwards.
Disadvantages to the Wodniw Nafliar include not being near the operator and not being able to see switches and signals set for you train. Advantages include providing a new point of view that makes a well traveled line seem new and exciting, you have a better chance getting the Wodniw Nafliar than the Railfan Window, because no crew members are ever statined in the last car you can eat and drink while looking out the Wodniw Nafliar and if you stare out the Wodniw Nafliar enough, when the train stops stationary objects look as if they are rushing towards you.
mike... you're being a little generous about your posts... i think you and the rest of the subtalkers have run out of anything of substance to say much more than a week ago...
i think the rear car railfan window has a lot to offer... first and foremost, there is little likelihood of having any railfans with you...secondly, in the event of a derailment, you get one of the first looks at what happened to the track... thirdly, you get to see the demons that come out of hiding after the train has passed. there are definitely demons out there, similar to the one that william shatner saw on the wingtip of an airplane on an old twilight zone... fourthly, some motorman speed up on sharp curves just as soon as the front car goes through the curve, so that when the last car reaches the curve you're guaranteeed to get whiplash...
I'm takin this one more stop..
Railfan Window vs. Railside Window
Railside Window being defined as a door window
on any tranverse-cab r62 wherein no railfan
window exists... the Railside Window has
provided me quite the many lucid views
of the IRT 1/9 line... especially 91st.
Not a bad place to plop a video camera onto.
........south ferry I have a question for you ....I understand you can do this in washington DC the railside window to
the right of the operator ...have you ever been there & done this ??
Yes it is, if you want to look through a double set of tinted windows. You have to block out the interior light with your hands to see the underground part of the Metrorail.
This can be done on the Broad Street Subway, and one set of windows is not tinted at all.
1 South Ferry 9 has yet to venture into another
state's transit system...
Come to Pennsylvania, and ride SEPTA and PATCO. Take one ride around Philadelphia, and you'll think of railfan windows not as a vanishing species, but as something that can be improved by technology (how many of you remember ever looking out a railfan window while sitting down)?
>>>(how many of you remember ever looking out a railfan window while sitting down)?<<<
PATH Offers you this option
Peace,
ANDEE
Cleveland's Airporter could have been great for railfans, except CTS/RTA worried about lawsuits if someone got hurt.
You could in Chicago before the advent of OPTO.
I have ridden in the last car of a train on a few occasions. Usually it was a case of reaching the platform when the train was already there and just hopping aboard. Once, I did it with a purpose. It was on the Canarsie while headed out to Brooklyn on a train of BMT standards. It was a totally different perspective, seeing where you've been instead of where you're going. The only other time I looked out through the storm door window of the last car was on a CC train out of 42nd St. on June 27, 1968 - right after being spooked by the lower level.
Well today I brought my hand held cassette recorder and a plug in mic from my pc and I plan to redord the sounds of my commute home. In particiular I plan to gather evidence that Broad St. Line trains are louder than an atomic bomb blast, but I'm saving that bit for another post tomorrow. Are there any requests of stuff i should record in the future? i can convert them to Mp3's and if someone is nice enough I could post the entire recording up on a website.
Glad to hear someone will be recording audio. I'd like to see more subway sounds on the web.
May I make a few suggestions?
Try to get your hands on a better microphone. The PC mics have very low fidelity, really only designed for minimum quality voice recording. Also, do not use AGC (automatic gain control) or auto-recording level. It flattens all the dynamics out and all you'll end up with is a more or less constant dull roar. Only the better quality (i.e., expensive) recorders allow you to set the record level manually. Hope this doesn't come across like some sort of audio-snob, but most of the subway audio tracks I've heard, including those on videotapes, are almost useless.
Good luck, and have fun.
Bill
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I highly recommend heypaul's R-1/9 tape. It captures all those great sounds those cars made.
thanks again steve for the kind words about the r9 tape... that tape has given me more personal enjoyment than the motorman's cab i put together...
i find it very comforting listening to the compressor's chug away and to the sounds of the cars braking... it was recorded on a $25 portable cassette recorder, on a cheap radio shack cassette... if anyone wants a free copy, just e-mail me and i'll be happy to send you a copy...
It is a great tape..........I offered a free 1981 chicago cta tape (audio) ........
Maybe I was so lucky that you were recording when I was running. I worked vacation relief as a motorman (l967-77) and spread myself around to run Rl-9 as much as possible and cover a lot of lines. I have some R9 tapes on J and QB, also some D and E but not much on them.
hey ed... as someone on this message board who operated the r9's and went out of his way to operate them, could you grace us with some stories of operating them?... memorable moments, scary experiences, what you enjoyed about them... it seems being a motorman really held its fascination for you while you were working... sometimes you hear that after awhile it just becomes a job...but it sounds like you really enjoyed yourself.
Rather than tie up the post send me an e-mail. I'll set something up for stories. bigedirtmanl@msn.com. How DO YOU e-mail other posters, addresses aren't published? Yes, I enjoyed being an M/M most of the time, usually after a full days work I was tired. Thejobdidn't start getting to me until the last few years before I quit when it became a slum railroad.But I appreciate what I've seen on my last few visits..
>>>>>>> Rather than tie up the post send me an e-mail. I'll set something up for stories <<<<<
Don't sell yourself short Ed, there are a lot of us who would like to hear your stories. Most of us are probably frustrated T/O wannabes.
I've got a few questions for you myself. For instance,
Is there some type of licence a T/O must have to operate a train?
How much training does a T/O get before he actually operates a train in revenue service?
Is the first run in revenue service a solo run or is a trainer standing by?
Do you know if the TA now uses any simulators for training T/Os ?
You mentioned that you were working vacation relief and therefore drove all types of cars. Does a T/O have to be checked out on each type of equipment, or can any T/O be expected to drive any type of equipment on any given day?
In all the time I rode the subways, I was never on a train that made an emergency stop. How often in a year (or a career) would a typical T/O have to make an all out emergency stop?
In the original equipment, there was always an emergency handle in the cars, which my parents impressed upon me I must never pull. Would that handle just alert the motorman and the conductor that something was wrong, or did it in fact directly apply the emergency brakes?
I know after I drive an automobile without cruise control at a steady highway speed for about an hour my right knee begins to hurt. Was there a similar problem with elbows from having to keep pressure on the dead man's throttle?
BTW I got your book and really enjoyed it. I gave me a lot of information I did not know about the rolling stock.
Tom
In response to these questions I'll answer what I can but remember my M/M training was 33 years ago so some things may be stricter or more lenient. To my knowldge train operators don't need a license, ob the other hand for the last 10 years, thanks to lobbting by the Brotherhood of Loco engineers the engineers on common carrier roads do. B]My training was about 4-6 weeks as I recall in classrooms and on car equipment and qualifying in the various yards; then I had 4 months in yard service before we retrained on car equipment (several types back then) and made student trips on the road, all lines of whichever division we were on, on regular passenger trains..so our first trip once we were qualified was solo. C] I have no idea if the NYCT uses simulators; personally I hope not. D] With the exception of new equipment with major changes once you are qualified on lines and equipment you're expected to be able to run them all. If you were on the extra board then you could have to run Q's AB's,R1-9, and then the modern equipment and know to some degree how to handle breakdowns; We were qualified on all types regardless of the job we picked.E]Only fate could dictate how often somebody had to make an emergency stop.I was lucky..had 2 close calls but never killed anyone;had to "dump it" for one reason or another once in a while. Some guys I knew had a "suicide" [for legal reasons they're written up as suicides until facts are determined] their first week on the road.Sad.One of my emergency stops was seeing a red lamp a trackman left to the right of my train..at times like that there's no asking questions..you dump it or might have a dead man. F]that cord is indeed connected to the brake pipe and "dumps" the air when it is pulled causing an emergency stop.This applies on both modern or original equipment. (some systems like CTA have no air brake but it still causes an emergency stop.) G]the deadman handle indeed can cause dicomfort. Some equipment was easier than others. I remember generally the Westinghouse controllers having extremely stiff springs which I found unnecessary. The BMT AB's fit that category; so did the R26,28,29,33; the R32 and R36 had the identical WH controller but weren't as tight and I enjoyed them. I could go on ad infinitum but sometimes it got to be a lot. I'm doing this here as some other fans may be interested. Hope you're enjying "the Millions"
Did you ever use the wrong braking technique on the wrong car type (SMEE technique on an AMUE train or vice versa), or get hung up going from one controller/brake valve arrangement to another? IIRC, BMT equipment had the controller on the right and brake valve on the left while everything else had it the other way around.
No, never did have a problem when changing from one brake equipment to another; not even on l575 which looked likean R10.aybe the sound of traction motors kept me reminded. The AB's were another story..being used to and preferring the IND arrangement I had a pretty sore right wrist after 4 trips on the Canarsie line. And those Westingouse controllers on the AB's had a stiff spring.
Ed, the human element is what makes the subway special. So post away!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll cook up some memories and share them under another topic once iI can think of things that might be interesting. Thanks for the thoughts.
Oohhhhhh, you've got tape recordings, too? Here's the ultimate question: does the D tape include the CPW express run? I'd love to hear those bull and pinion gears howling away at a sustained F# above middle C again. Does the E tape include the Queens express runs?
Feel free to email me privately if you wish. I would be very interested in obtaining a copy.
The D run is l45 St-59th. Could be a better recording. The E run is Jamaica-l79 to 3rd and Lex. I was running on that one; as rotten luck would have it the lead car was DEAD. Still sounds good. Had a radio conversation about an almost new R46 on fire! But good old battlewagon rolled right along. I haven't figured how to e-mail posters, you can e-mail me at bigedirtmanl@msn.com
ed... when you read someone's post,and after it says "posted by" under the title of the post, their name is in red then you can just click on their name, and an e-mail message will appear addressed to them...
"ed... when you read someone's post,and after it says "posted by" under the title of the post, their name is in red then you can just click on their name, and an e-mail message will appear addressed to them..."
Gee Paul, mine are Blue and Underlined. Perhaps that's why we don't see eye to eye.
Only if they've furnished an email address - while it's required to get a password, it's not required for the actual post.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not red, it's blue unless the user has different settings, which in your case is true. But actually it's more a case of WebTV and it's default settings which don't conform to basic standards (no big deal though). What color is your text and the background? What about buttons?
A visited link (like if you've e-mailed someone) is purple.
Ain't it grand being GREEN!!
Mine (with WebTV) are blue. I think Paul must have re-wired the guns on his picture tube.
As was posted above, if a user has different settings the colors will be different.
Mine shows links and e-mail addresses in blue -- unless I have contacted them. Then they turn to grey. These are the default settings through the browser I am using (Netcomplete, which was distributed by Netcom -- my ISP -- though they've been bought up by Mindsprin/Earthlink, everything still works just fine).
i will be soon offering a free audio tape about how amy were ruined here by the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE ..
& this tape will really raise some eyebrows !!!!....
Leave it to bureaucracy..especially in LA..On second thought add the fed and NYC. Every major line in NYC was built before WW2 except for Rockaway. Only a few additions or line captures and rerouting have been done since. Just think..if they had any sense we'd see a modern equivalent of the PE.
......yea.....that PE system was great !!!.....they still rub at the orange empire museum in peris california.....
the trolleys make the same sounds the pre world war 2 cars subway cars in nyc make .....
the PE system should have never been ripped out .......
So it was a cassette recorder after all, eh? The sound quality is remarkable just the same.
I'm going to try to get a recording of M-1s through Mineola over the next few weeks useing a minidisc recorder and 2 microphones (radio schack unidirectionals). Yes, I figured out the manual settuing of recording levels. it should be nice if works as planned, and it will be *stereo* too.
I'm also going to get a recording of my (loud) bike once it gets back from the shop. A few passes down the street (at various volume levels). That too will be stereo.
I might get an AEM-7 too (no, I mean a recording of an AEM-7), though they sound as interesting as a vacuum cleaner...
I'm "evaluating" my friend's MD recorder (bottom of the line one), and frankly, it's a lot nicer than I expected (though not perfect). Not only can you record, but you can also title tracks, erase tracks you don't want, and even erase and record over a track without worrying about nuking the one after it. It's pretty slick.
Once I get some files into my computer and MP3'd, I'll post them up...
Hi All,
My girlfriend and I are going to Boston for a few days in July. Being clueless about boston, maybe some of you can help me. We'd like to stay in a decent but not super expensive hotel near a convient subway line. Where on the subway map is Fanuel Hall / Quincy Market? She found some place right near Copley Square, I'm assuming this is the Copley stop on the Green line. Is this safe / near tourist attractions and the like? Any suggestions and the best subway lines to ride on would be helpful.
Thanks!
Peter
Copley Sq. is where the big hotels are, the Marriott, the Westin, etc. I stayed at the Westin once--beautiful hotel! It is convenient to the Copley Green Line stop and the Back Bay Orange Line stop. Faneuil Hall etc. is probably closest to Government Center stop on the Green Line IIRC. It's an easy walk at any rate.
-Dave
Fanuiel Hall/Quincy Market is closest to Government Center on the Green Line (and not far from other stations too). The Copley area is as safe as it gets in Boston -- lots of business people by day and lots of tourists around the clock.
Another alternative (assuming you're a rail fan :-) is to stay at the Marriott Courtyard or Suisse Chalet adjacent to the Mishawum Station on the Lowell branch of the commuter rail. It's about a 25 minute trip into the city (goes to North Station), but the hotel rates are significantly less ($70-100/nite). Commuter train service is half-hourly rush hours, hourly middays and evenings, and every other hour on weekends.
As far as the best lines to ride are concerned (that's been covered here many times), make sure you get to ride the Matapan/Ashmont extension of the Red Line, which uses PCCs.
The Lenox is another reputable holel in the area, along with several others nearby. Green Line is an easy ride to Fanuil Hall, you can catch a Sullivan via Bunker Hill bus near there for Old Ironsides and the Bunker Hill Monument. Walk the Freedom Trail, visit the Aquarium, cruise the harbor - all convenient to there. South Station is worth a visit, great revitalized train station and lots of Big Dig contruction nearby. No. 7 bus to City Point, walk to Castle Island - great inner city beaches, public fishing pier, old fort (tours on weekends), harbor and airport views. Enjoy your visit!
Gerry
If you're driving in the Holiday Inn at "Riverside" is very convient from the Mass Pike and 128 (95). Some of us will be at the Beacon Inn (mid July) also on the Green Line, but a little closer in. Todd makes a very good suggestion if you're comming in from the north ... you can also get there from North Station and Logan Airport.
Places you can get to via mass transit: Old Iron Sides (train & bus), Bost Tea Party ship, Museum of Science, Childern's Museum, Revere Amusement Park. Also suggest you get off at Government Center/State and walk to Faneuil Hall Marketplace ... shopping/eating
Mr t__:^)
I hate to tell you this, Mr. T, but the only amusement left at Revere Beach is watching Blue Line trains or girls on the beach. The amusement park is loooooooong gone!
Gerry
Well nothing good ever last for ever. My last memory there was with a girl who got sick on one of those spinning rides. I was a teen in my first job away from home ... no car, so it was one of several places I could take a date. Another was the irish dance places where you could see a show band from Over There and meet a lot of girls who drank Tea ... wasn't old enough for the bars. Only problem was I had to get home before they rolled the streets up ... boy that was a long time ago ! BTW, I enjoyed to PCCs even then.
Mr t__:^)
did anybody get to ride the new cars yet? i saw them last nite in E 180th in the shead but, don't know if they were being prepared for revenue service? i woke up to late to catch the first one did anyone witness it in service please reply.
The first train is set to operate sometime early, to mid July on the 6 line.
Can anyone help out with contact information for employment on NJ Transit?
This is in reference to rail conductor positions as well as bus operator positions.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
[Can anyone help out with contact information for employment on NJ Transit? ]
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/careers.htm
Anyone have any idea where I can get an updated listing of assignments? The last one I have was from Fall 99. David, this would be a great addition to your site!
PS...any infor on the shopping of R68S at Concourse???
The ones at Joe Korman's site (October 1999) ar still accurate. Dave has this on the site. It's in the subway FAQ. It's dated December 1998.
<<>>
Say what?
The additional 30 Slant R40s now assigned to Eastern Division (Feb.2000) is the only change that I'm aware of. All assigned to "L" except for eight to "M" as spares.
wayne
Argh December 1998 for shame! Update! Update! Assignments! Give weekend changes too..<>
The ones at Joe Korman's site (October 1999) ar still accurate. Dave has this on the site. It's in the subway FAQ. It's dated December 1998.
>>>PS...any infor on the shopping of R68S at Concourse???<<<
Say what?
How many of the R68As are shopped at Concourse? How many at Coney?
Sorry if I was not clear.
I think the split is: #2500-2775 to Concourse, #2776-2924 to Coney Island.
wayne
SORRY that is the REGULAR R68 SPLIT, not the R68A, which is all CI.
I got distracted reading the post
wayne
All the R68As are registered at Coney Island Yard. There are a few R68As at Concourse, east of Queensbridge, and at 36 Street overnight for B service in the morning, in addition to the ones from Coney Island in the morning.
I went on the 2 line into E 180th street today. The Motorman said he didn't see any in service yet. I waited for the Dyre Shuttle. I saw a set of R142's sitting between Gun hill Road and Baychester Avenue, they looked dirty. However, Motormen were testing it some more. My next guess is it will start running next week or in July. Can anyone confirm this?
The Train will be running sometime in July and on the No.6 Line the first trip will be the 8:08AM. This Info came from a T.S.S.
On 6/14, a G.O. went into effect on the B'way BMT from 57 Street to 34 Street taking track 3 out of service. The G.O. was to test the R142s, which comprised of 63**s. While working my regular route, I did spot these cars at 49 Street, with a crash train (diesels) in front and in rear of the consist. They pick up nicely and may be something to look forward to, although I am reserved to old school equipment.
I was on the 5 line today after riding the shuttle. I arrived at dyre avenue at 3:00 in time to ride the last shuttle. anyway, I talked to a supervisor at dyre avenue. He says he likes the R142s, but there is alot he hates about them. He says they are a piece of garbage, and the Steel dust will Kill it. He even prefers the 4 Trains R62's with the G.E. controllers because they are better built he says.
My concern is they may be going overboard with technology again. I admit the R44 has a following and sounds like they're doing ok NOW but when they were new they were lemons in almost every area. And they ran tests galore on them. I was a motorman on them when they were new and they went thru a lot of modifications. For the sake of the passengers, fans, and taxpayers I hope they don't have a repeat of that situation especially with [ll00 cars I believe] such a huge order. The R62 was a step backwards toward the l960 era and they've been a success.
I got on the 5 Train today. The supervisor saw a B division Motorman on the 5 Train. He said "hey,what are you doing here"? are you lost"? I was like "hey, leave the B Divison alone". I got friends over there! So he had alot of Jokes on the B division. I asked what do you call the Trains over there? BMT= Barely moving Trains, IND= Its nearly Deteriorating. He loves the A division. He calls the IRT= Its a Real Train!
Nah, I like the B Division more that the A Division. They have more lines, and bigger cars. That's my opinion.
So SIZE DOES MATTER??
It certainly does and so does shape. The rounded sides of the 75-foot cars give them a much sleeker look. Why didn't they make the R142s with rounded sides?
Had a good crawl from 34th street to 36th on a B. The "Hippo" lumbered up slowly into W4th. Then we crept along the bridge. It took over 10 minutes to get across the Manhattan bridge. I think Montague tunnel is quicker.
Then it is so slow through Dekalb, even with the bypass tracks. Then we hit the BMT 4th avenue "express". Yeah some express, with lots of red and yellow signals and subway workers in the tunnel, when we got to 36th another B arrived on the local track, it must've been rerouted there. Then right behind it an R, the same one that came across from us at Pacific street. The express only came a half a minute before the local!
I do prefer the wider tunnels and cars of division B, but it's mainly the IND lines, especially Queens Blvd and the A train in Brooklyn and Queens that can move. The whole Dekalb street situation is so bad, the trains crawl so badly over there, often coming to a dead stop at least once. Add to that the MB scenario, and division B in B'kln has some serious problems.
It is much better and quicker to take the IRT from Atlantic avenue than wait for IND/BMT at Pacific street. No wonder why the 4/5 and 2/3 in Brooklyn are always much busier than B,D,Q,M,N,R!
I think that's it's an illustion that the 2/3/4/5 appear busier than the Division B. Don't forget, the Division A cars are smaller and narrower. You almost bump knees with the people sitting across from you. While I cannot defend the Pacific street leg of the Southern Division, the only time you find a Q near empty is near the end of the line.
>>>Then we crept along the bridge. It took over 10 minutes to get across the Manhattan bridge.<<<
It can be the T/O not the train. Maybe the T/O isn't very "confident" of himself and is going through the timers slower. Doesn't mean the train is bad.
>>>Then it is so slow through Dekalb, even with the bypass tracks.<<<
There are timers that lead through the maze of switches. The speed of the train must go slow through that area. It may be slower than usual, once again, the reason above is possible.
>>>Then we hit the BMT 4th avenue "express". Yeah some express, with lots of red and yellow signals and subway workers in the tunnel, when we got to 36th another B arrived on the local track, it must've been rerouted there.<<<
If you've never stood at the railfan window, the 4th Avenue Line is curved. The trains must slow down on those curves. There are timers on those curves and timers (with switches) right before the station to prevent trains from flying off the track if the switches are set at diverge. Workers are workers. You can't complain about them. They keep the system running. The explanations above apply to the T/O operating slow.
I prefer the "B" division, particularly the IND. I grew up with these trains. I find "A" division stations and trains to be claustrophobic.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was waiting at E 180th street. I guess they were coming from a Trip, headed back to school. There teacher wanted to know what happend to the 5. I said there is no 5 service. The shuttle is running. Anyway a work Train came in, an the kids where like we aren't getting on this! I was like, no, it doesn't carry passengers, it is a Work Train. Then the shuttle arrived. it dumped, and they asked what is that noise? I said the Train operator is securing the Train. The teacher said its like parking. then they said ohhhhhh. anyways,I shared my general knowledge, and when they got off at baychester avenue they said, Bye Train expert!!!!
Things like helping the average public makes my day
Interesting, most of the time when I try to help people ignore me or don't believe me. Then again, if they can't listen to announcements or a friendly passer-by they deserve to wait until 5 on Monday morning.
I had a dream where at one point I am on an R-46 telling my friend that I will ride the 142 today, and out of nowhere the Chinese person selling R-46 storm door keys for $1 tells me they won't run for another few weeks.
My bad day
Well, I overslept and had to run like hell to find the 142s. I forgot my watch. Got to 42st TS a little late, decided to look for the ones on the 6 instead so I take the S. I ride the 5 to Union Sq. and wait there for about a half hour. I ask the token person if she would let me leave and return to the fare zone to get a 6 schedule, and she nods yes. Then, she won't let me back in! I stood at the special entry turnstile, and she shakes her head no, smiling dementedly. After jumping the turnstile I decide to ride the 6 one stop downtown, get off and wait for the next, and keep repeating. The jackhammer at Canal gives me a headache, and the train takes 10 minutes to come in, and sits there doors open for 3 more mins. At Brooklyn Bridge I sit there waiting for 10 minutes, then notice there are no clocks. I run down to the token booth, ask what time is it, and the guy kindly lets me out to check the Metrocard reader, and allows me back in. I see two other people (who I also saw on opening day HBLR) I assume are waiting for the 142 (who else watches the downtown 6 at Brooklyn Br.), but I could not think of a way to start a conversation. They left to ride the 6 around the loop, I waited 3 more trains and then ran to the 4 to the 6 to the F. I see 3494/3495 leave Roosevelt ave in the Jamaica bound direction, which angers me slightly, and really get pissed when I see 3730 going the other way on the R.
My good day
The Global regents is easy and I'm out of there with 40 minutes to spare. I end up on 3495 on the way to Manhattan on the R, and it goes 55 MPH under the river. The 5s are going to Dyre. I see one and 1/2 sets of 142s in the 180st shop, and see the other 1/2 S. of Morris pk. To top it all off, I get 3730 on the way home.
can anyone tell me where this picture was taken?
I beleive in Bklyn. Near the SBK and the Culver line.....
BM34x
thanks. also, how was it moving since i see no 3rd rail or loco in the picture, or was it just parked across the street blocking traffic?
It looks like one of the small TA diesels is at the far end of the train. If that's not what that is (and my eyes are too ancient to be sure), then it's simply blocking traffic.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
06/15/2000
The location is Parkville Junction. That track seen connected the South Brooklyn Railway (SBK) with the LIRR Bay Ridge division. Those brand new R-46's were being tested on the LIRR after making a trip up McDonald Avenue to the connection. The LIRR would have to pick up the consist for the move to Freemont and the LIC branch to Jamaica. The only time the Bay Ridge Branch was electrified was with catenary wire which was removed in the late 60's. By this time the line was strictly diesel only.
Bill "Newkirk"
That's Parkville Junction at Avenue I & McDonald Avenue in Brooklyn, probably in 1975 or 1976.
The area the train is seen passing through is now the parking lot behind the Avenue I ShopRite that opened within the last 4-5 years at the corner of Avenue I and McDonald Avenue. There was some disagreement as to whether the cars being delivered in the picture are R-44s or R-46s; they are tough to tell apart, especially before the GOH, when they both still had their blue lines. The cars were delivered via the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch to the connection with the street-level SBK tracks that ran under the Culver El until about 1990, then the on the SBK to a gate around Avenue X and McDonald that gave access to a part of the Coney Island Shops complex. There are some additional shots of these cars on the SBK trackage; it's kind of interesting to see obvious subway cars _under_ the el, instead of on top of it.
subfan
There shouldn't be any disagreement about the car type, since the number (501) is visible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
06/18/2000
Perhaps #501 being the first of those R-46's maybe they were delivered. But I saw slides of the rest of the fleet being floated over to Brooklyn with interchange with New York Dock (pre- NY Cross Harbor). Also I was told they were being speed tested on the LIRR.
If someone else can solve this, please come forward.
Bill "Newkirk"
I uploaded some pix thatappear to show the arrival of the first BMT Stds via the the then new subway connection.
I believe these pix are the gggrand dads of this current picture.
See them at
Http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/newstd1.jpg
Http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/newstd2.jpg
Http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/newstd3.jpg
Http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/newstd4.jpg
Http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole/newstd5.jpg
Actually they might be pics of new Standards being delivered to the isolated Canarsie line,before the connection to the rest of the BMT at Bway-E NY was built..since there was no connection to the rest of the system, they literally had to deliver about 20 cars through city streets, on temporary tracks leading from the LIRR Bushwick line.[Mayor John Hylan was holding up the construction of the rest of the line...]
I believe you are correct, Lou. On a TM tour a couple of years ago they showed us the station that was the temporary end of the line, and showed us the evidence in the station structure (differences in the ceiling, etc.) of where the ramp had once been that allowed them to lower the cars into the subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does show a subway connection, where as the Canarsie connection, wherever that was would have been above goround also.
The original 14 St line was initially opened from 14 St-6 Ave to Montrose; the original plan had been for it to rise to an el there. However, Hylan blocked the construction until the plans were changed to make it a subway through to Wilson. [BTW, this created very serious overcrowding at Canal, as people coming from East NY going uptown had to use the Broadway Brooklyn line to across the Willy B to Canal then change to the Broadway express trains on that narrow uptown platform.....]
06/18/2000
Mellow one,
I tried accessing those pix but met with great difficulty. What's wrong?
Bill "Newkirk"
I know that a set of R-44s set a speed record on the LIRR of 83mph and burnt out some of its motors after the test!
I don't recall if the R-46s were speed tested on the LIRR.
--Mark
You are correct; I am not as familiar with car numbers as you are.
subfan
Actually, I'm not either, but with a pixel editor I confirmed the car number listed in the caption at the bottom of the picture :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On the Franklyn S today, I saw that the rollsign box had been removed from this car and replaced with a plastic sign made to resemble the rollsign from the outside. I knew something was weird when I saw the destinations to the left of the bullet on the outside, where they're supposed to be to the right. On the inside, it's plain to see (top half of window is a plastic sign. The destinations are to the left of the bullet on the inside as well. The car it was paired to was 2922, which still had rollsigns.
My question: At night, does the shuttle operate a 1 car train?
9078 on the 2 had the middle (southern destination) roll sign removed.......
BM34x
The Franklin operates 2 cars 24/7. In fact, 1 car moves are not allowed in yards.
Yeah, I started to notice it a few days ago. I think the rollsigns from these cars went to 2882 and friends because I saw the set today at Lexington on the N/R with rollsigns. I'll check it out tomorrow.
5116 doesn't have a sign AT ALL on one side.
"My question: At night, does the shuttle operate a 1 car train?"
IMPOSSIBLE
How would you run OPTO going the other way?
I assume that if this were true and the narrow cab pointed south, then it would be on the correct side each time.
Franklin is the most mispelled name on this board. Why do people seem to think that an avenue has to take a more fashionable spelling (and one that's extremely rare relative to the actual one)? Haven't you (plural, referring to people who like crooked letters) heard of people named Franklin? Like Benjamin Franklin maybe?
A friend of mine has models of what he says are the last two boats that ran. They are the "Irvington" and the "Pierpont". They were single deck boats with two passenger cabins seperated by two car lanes in the middle that held about six or eight cars. The pilot house was above one of the passenger cabins.
TrAnSiTiNfO is pleased to announce that Thursday, June 15th, at 9:00 PM, Trevor Logan, CEO of TransiTalk, joined the TrAnSiTiNfO team. Expect to see many new things come to TrAnSiTiNfO in the near future.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Chicago News Story about the Kenosha PCC Streetcar Project
The new system using PCC cars begins service on June 17,2000
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/trol15.html
There may be more of them down the road - Gomaco has acquired a half-dozen Phila PCC and are studying them with an eye to making some in the future. It's in the preliminary design/discussion stage.
I forgot to ask them if they were going to do any Perley Thomas cars for New Orleans. They just made a lovely Birney for Tampa-St.Petersburg!
wayne
I've got more good news about PCCs (this time about the two the TTC has) from this morning's Globe & Mail.
Take a look at:
http://theglobeandmail.com/gam/Toronto/20000616/UROCKM.html
Renewewd Rockets Return To Service...
The TTC has finished up painting and refurbishing PCC 4549, which has now been released from Hillcrest shops and is now
ready to be used on charters, and most likely during the opening ceremonies for the 509 Harbourfront line on July 23rd (they should be on time, given the line's current status).
Now that 4549's refurbishment has been completed, 4500 will soon be disappearing into the Hillcrest complex for three and a half months, to pass through the same process.
-Robert King
I've seen some pictures of one of the PCCs, number 4610, undergoing some preopening testing at Kenosha. It looks good, having been repainted, but they didn't paint on the black stripe that runs around the streetcar between where the maroon ends and the bottoms of the windows are, so it looks a little plain... Hopefully this will be fixed because painting a narrow black stripe isn't too difficult. On the other hand, I'm a little surprised that this happened because all of the PCCs they have were originally in the correct TTC paint scheme, and I was sure they'd use one of the others as a template when repainting 4610 in TTC livery.
I'm also looking forward to seeing the other PCCs painted up in the different paint schemes, including the one which never was used on a PCC.
-Robert King
You know, come to think of it, since the PCC design has stood the test of time so well, why not actually revive the design itself - I mean actually make new cars this way - instead of the articulated design they're currently using? I don't mind the Kinkisharyo LRV, but hey, I'll take a PCC ANY DAY over one of those rolling refrigerators.
wayne
You and me both, Wayne. Heck, my license plate says TROLLEY, but that's only because no one would understand PCC CAR.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They already do -
CKD Tatra in the Chech Republic has been building PCC cars by the thousands (using the formerly TRC licensed designs) since the 50's to today. The car is basically the same performance wise and dimensions as the US standard version, altho with much updated electronics (I won't miss the MG set), are now being sold as the "TR3". You can get one US legal for $650,000 each.
What do they look like? Because I looked on the European Railway Server's Picture Gallery. I didn't see any TR3 cars, but I saw a lot of T3Rs, which seem to be PCC-sized, but looks like the more modern trams of today.
Try looking at www.tramway.com They have a really large photo collection. Tatra made a car until the 70's called a T2, it looked like an angular metric version of a PCC. The T3's look more like LRV's.
The T3R is the updated version of the old T3 (which itself was outgrowths of the T1 & T2's of the early 50's). Tatra has given the operators of the 10,000 or so T3's a choice of either having their old cars rebuilt into T3R's or to have entirely new cars built. Yes, they DO look like LRV's, but a whether or not a PCC is a PCC is not based on appearance. The former Eastern Block had their own appearance standards.
Nearly all the electromechanicals of the T3 were copied from the Westinghouse PCC all-electric type equipment, and the St. Louis B3 truck design with the approval of the Transit Research Corp., the company that lisenced the PCC patents and arranged things like this. Only about 15 years ago did Tatra start using chopper control, monomotors, etc. with their newer models. The electromechanicals of the new cars that New Orleans has now are from the T3R program. The TRC folded in 1960, and the patents have long lapsed.
If all you really wanted was to duplicate the old body style with new running gear, that is very do-able. Re-creating the 1940's technology is not exactly practical, especially since there is much better equipment and methods available. Some things aren't even legal anymore to build the way it was in '48 (asbestos comes to mind).
Well if T3Rs cost only $650,000 apiece, then I think a certain transit agency in Philadelphia that has been dragging its feet on its promise to restore streetcar service on the 15, 23 and 56 lines which haven't seen regular trolley service since 1992. SEPTA had been planning to buy a dozen cars for the 15, renamed the Girard Light Rail Line, and bring it up to modern light rail standards. So what's SEPTA waiting for now?
Too bad transit officials don't read Subtalk...
There are a number of things, amongst them making the lines ADA compliant if reactivated, and would involve having to spend money on things they really don't want to. I hear the politics are astounding.
I thought the subway-surface lines (10,11,13,34& 36) were getting new cars and the Kawasaki's were going to go on the 15 (Girard) line. They mention redoing Callowhill to take the new light rail cars and store the "K" cars there also.
Chuck Greene
I haven't heard that yet from the trolley list serve guys, who usually publish anything that goes on down there. But who knows?
Mebbe they'll actually do it. And that's good.
Who's going to be providing the new cars?
Getting back to the original thread, what is the buzz on Gomaco making new PCC bodies? I thought there was a glut on the market of SEPTA/TTC/Shaker/Boston cars of varying conditions.
Couple of things:
1. The new New Orleans cars use solid state equipment and Tatra B3 style trucks. The first 2 cars used equipment salvaged from two of the cars they bought from SEPTA. Once built, they discovered that the operating costs for the two rebuilds were HIGHER than the expenses for the Perley Thomas cars. So, Elmer Von Dulen and his wizards at Carrolton promptly contacted Tatra and the rest is history, as they say.
2. As to the "glut on the market", SEPTA is out of GOH cars for sale.
The TTC has disposed of all but two of the 4500 rebuilds. The Shaker cars are long gone, and when RTA got rid of them, they were junk.
Boston? What they didn't keep and Seashore didn't get is long, long gone.
3. If Gomaco is looking to get into the PCC nostalgia line, the mechanical equipment will most likely come from Tatra, who are the only source for PCC type equipment.
4. As to the Rt. 15 restoration, don't hold your breath. SEPTA is only looking for 15 articulated low-floor cars and at last report are not anywhere near being bid. If and when they show up will free up about 20 K cars, which are 20 years old this year, and most likely will need a GOH.
Boston sold 14 PCCs to an outfit called Vintage Electric Streetcars or Vestco in 1991. This company also owns ex TTC, ex SEPTA, ex PAT, and ex Shaker Heights PCCs. I think they have made a business of selling PCC parts, but I don't think they have resold any complete cars yet except for the five ex TTC cars that went to Kenosha. I think this is the glut of PCCs the previous poster was talking about.
Also, the 12 ex-Shaker cars that Buffalo bought but never used are now for sale.
CKD Dopravni, the Czech parent of Tatra, went bankrupt earlier this year. There are three prosective buyers that the Czech government has lined up to take over the operation. Siemens is said to be most interested. I doubt Siemens will keep building the Tatra product line, I think they want the Czech plant to build their own product line at a lower cost than they can in Germany.
I think Vintage Electric Streetcars is one of the famous (or infamous)
Eds that buys everything PCC that is being disposed and hauls it away to somewhere. It's kinda like a Roach Motel for PCC's - they go in, but they don't get out.
The TTC cars that went to Kenosha came directly from the Comission. VTE did get two of the 4600's, but the previous comment applies.
NFT did recently bid the spare parts - no takers AFAIK.
The cars were junk when NFT got them, and they've been sitting in Buffalo since. I suspect the scrapyard is the next stop.
Um, concerning the 12 Shaker cars in Buffalo, I did go up and do a evaluation survey a few weeks back. There are several bidders, but NFTA isn't going to get rich. BTW, they look sad, but are in better shape than others I have seen and are stored indoors at South Park (yes, that is the real name of the NFTA shops). 10 out of 12 are complete, and #70 ran recently.
Ed Metka's VES presently has the largest fleet of PCC's in the Western world, numbering close to 70 cars.
In another post about SEPTA re-re-rebuilding PCC's, the ADA issue being faced by SEPTA has several solutions. One presented is a real lift mounted under the aft half of the front doorway, designed by a former PAT engineer who happens to be wheelchair bound.
The Route 15 revamp has been put out for bids and a contractor has been selected. The SEPTA Board approved the bids. Work should be starting this summer.
The good news is:
The route will be completely revitalized with lots of new track.
Much of the funding will be spent on upgrades to the electrical distribution system to allow air-conditioned cars to travel the entire route (when K cars subbed a few summers back, they couldn't go north of the Cumberland turnback due to power problems).
Trolley service will eventually be restored (the construction will take 2 years, thus cars probably won't be back before '02).
Cars will return to Callowhill, where another good-sized chunk of change will be spent to upgrade the old car bays to modern standards. This will help Route 10 also by reducing the lenghty pull-in/pull-out moves from Elmwood.
The bad news is:
Little will happen regarding any separated right-of-way beyond lane striping and signing. At first, there was lots of talk about Erie Ave style separated track areas, but this is gone due to budget constraints. Things will rely on police enforcement, i.e. don't expect too much.
Service will be provided by K cars. There is no funding for any GOH. The cars may get some cosmetic work but little else. The 12 low-floor articulated cars that SEPTA had hoped to purchase would go to Route 13, freeing the K cars for 15. Bids for the new cars were astronomical, causing SEPTA to re-think this purchase (and why is anyone surprised, given the small order size - there was an option for 60 additional cars in the bid, meaning that SEPTA could have easily bid 50 or so with an option for 20, gotten the same number of cars and probably a much lower price). However, if the new cars don't come, service on 15 is in jeopardy, as the K cars are severely stretched right now and there is no room to spare the 10-12 cars needed for 15 with the current K-car fleet. Another early pipe dream was to truck in 6-8 double-ended K's from the Suburban side but things are just as tight on 101 and 102. Besides, the double-enders are wider than the City K's and may not be able to pass on some of the tighter clearance areas (which include Girard Ave west of Lancaster, all of Richmond St, South College Ave, and some other smaller areas).
Little thought was given to extend the line to 63rd & Malvern on the west end, which would open some additional market area and eliminate the difficult layover in a traffic lane on Girard Ave east of 63rd.
Although loading platforms, etc will be accessible, the K's are not, so the new line will not immediately be accessible despite the money being spent.
With the problems in car acquisition, rumor has it that SEPTA is re-thinking a rehab of some PCC's for service on 15, with a modification for accessibility demands (either lowering the floor at the center door or some sort of lift either on the car or wayside).
Why doesn't SEPTA make the bid for 50 cars with the option for 20 like you said they could have done? That would allow more articulateds for the other Subway Surface lines and free up more K cars for the 23 line.
Good question. There is no good answer. There is a school of thought that SEPTA is merely going through the motions with Rt 15 because the City forced it to include the upgrade in its budget a few years back (the then-mayor was upset at the millions being spent on the Regional Rail network and the comparative dollars (much less) directed to the City Division). This school of thought follows the lines that SEPTA would continually jack up the price of the project so that it was way beyond the amount budgeted with the hopes that (a) the City would insist on more than the bare-bones work that SEPTA recommended, causing cost estimates to increase and thereby kill the project, (b) SEPTA would illustrate that there was not enough funding to attempt the project AND buy new cars for the subway-surface, hoping to sway the City into agreeing to shift the Girard Ave $ into new cars and allowing the K cars to cascade down to 15, 23 and 56, which would operate 'as is' with few large-scale improvements, and/or (c) the City, seeing little progress and few hopes for a true light rail line with the funding provided, would decide to scrap the concept and thus save SEPTA's face.
Why any agency in its right mind would attempt to buy such a small order of cars, especially without trying to 'piggyback' on another property's order, is beyond me. Then again, this is SEPTA.
I found out that one can get state of the art LRV's for only $200,000.
They are made in Russia, though. That is about 10 times cheaper than the average LRV, and probably cheaper than even a used PCC.
Who makes them? What do they look like?
The LRV's look like low floor LRV's, similar to the HBLR cars, except these have 3 sections instead of 2.
They are made in St. Petersburg, Russia, by the local train factory, which made other streetcars and subway trains.
As far as I know, only one of the LRV's has actually been built.
You can find out more at tram.ruz.net
Are these 1:48 O scale or 1:43rd scale??
I saw some a few weeks ago that were repowered using Q-Car trucks, and they run great.
Just kidding.
Well if T3Rs cost only $650,000 apiece, then I think a certain transit agency in Philadelphia that has been dragging its feet on its promise to restore streetcar service on the 15, 23 and 56 lines which haven't seen regular trolley service since 1992. SEPTA had been planning to buy a dozen cars for the 15, renamed the Girard Light Rail Line, and bring it up to modern light rail standards. Maybe they could even buy additional cars for service on the 23 and the 56. So what's SEPTA waiting for now?
Too bad transit officials don't read Subtalk...
They already do -
CKD Tatra in the Chech Republic has been building PCC cars by the thousands (using the formerly TRC licensed designs) since the 50's to today. The car is basically the same performance wise and dimensions as the US standard version, altho with much updated electronics (I won't miss the MG set), are now being sold as the "TR3". You can get one US legal for $650,000 each.
And they are a challenge to keep running at a museum, even if they do have one transistor and a couple of diodes in them!
Amen to that. At BSM, our 1944 Pullman is currently OOS as the Shop replaces brake shoes. (Try unbolting the brake beams when the last time the bolts were replaced was 1963 or so. 8 bolts per beam, odds of bolts being wrung off 1 in 2. Total number of beams unbolted, 4.) and the front truck's track brakes, which have developed a nasty short are also being replaced.
The Shop is debating replacing the voltage regulator with a solid state model. The current mechanical one is starting to get "funny".
I'm curious as to the opinions of some of you subway buffs, so I'm taking a poll to see how you answer a few simple questions:
1. What's your favorite subway line? Why?
2. What's your least favorite subway line? Why?
3. What's your favorite type of subway equipment (e.g. R32, R36, R44, etc)? Why?
4. What's your least favorite type of subway equipment?
1. Q line, for obvious reasons
2. C line. Locals suck.
3. Tie: R44/46 and R42. The R42 just looks good asthetically, and the R44/46 has the foward facing seats I crave.
4. Tie: R68 and R38. The R38 is dark and t's suspension system sucks. The R68 takes the rapid out of rapid transit.
1. (A) Rockaway Line. Drawbridges and RR tracks.
2. A tie: (A) 8th ave midtown center track line (doesn't deserve the title 'express') and (B,D,Q) 6th ave center track line (3 express stops in a row, followed by 2 local and 2 more express!)
3. My favorite type of subway equipment is the R-110B, they provide for us shorter folk with straps while appealing to the taller ones with bars. For normal equipment I'd have to go with the R-44SI, as close to pre-GOH R-46 as I can ever get. Favorite specific car is obvious.
4. Least favorite would probably be the R-33 ML, peeling white ceiling paint and no center light track just plain don't look good.
1. The A. My handle says it all. Granted, it's not the same without the R-10s, but the express runs are still worthwhile.
2. Any pure local route. I'm an express addict to the core.
3. In terms of today's equipment, the R-32s, slant R-40s, and Redbirds. Favorite equipment of all time would be a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s.
4. The R-44s and R-68s. Chris R16 took the words right out of my mouth.
My handle gives it all away. I have been a Sea Beach fanatic since I was seven years old. The first thing I did when I visited New York for the first time in 20 years in 1974 was ride the Sea Beach to Coney Island. Unknown to me, I saw no #4 train at Times Square and after a half our asked some guy where the hell was the Sea Beach Express. He said the train that just pulled in, the N, was it. It was then I knew the whole numbering and lettering system had changed since I moved away two decades earlier. I always the 4th Avenue Local, just despised it. I do like the R68's now, but my all time favorite cars were and always will be the Triplex.
Most favorite: obvious from my handle, the Q (followed by the D).
Least favorite: the C especially, also the R and E )(all underground).
Favorite equipment: the R32s when they were new. The R68As now.
Hated equipment: R1/9s. Of current equipment, I find no major differences.
Okay I think since I've posted about a million messages tonight I will offload my ideas for rerouting the subway (all using existing tracks, not counting things like new connections or the 2nd Av.)
Seeing as how the BDQ are all maxed out...
run B trains via the south side of the Manhattan bridge tracks (the ones currently not used) through that abandoned Canal St. station, then in the express tracks on the broadway tubes to the 63rd st. tunnels, then out to queens via the 63rd st. tunnels. Q would replace the midday/rush hour only B service along the ACD lines north of 53rd. N train would also run via manhattan bridge only it would switch to the local tracks at those dual crossovers just south of Prince st. and then use the local tracks to 60th and then out to Astoria.
Then swap out M-rush hour service to Bay Pkwy, replace it with a new Z rush hour service between Broad St. BMT and Bay Pkwy. (since the Z is already rush-hour only, this makes things a little less confusing).
Finally, last but not least, run the M (all times except nights) to 57th via the Chrystie St. Connection (i REALLY wanna see that used).
This would accomplish two goals: First, it frees up service in the Monague St. Tunnels for more Z trains to Bay Pkwy, and second, it frees up the north-side Manhattan bridge tracks so that more D and Q trains can be added (since B now uses the yellow tunnels). This would also mean conversion of the M into an Orange train and the B into a yellow train, which goes well with the B paralelling the Bay Point and Sea Beach (just for Fred) lines.
Whaddya all think?
I don't think both sides of the bridge will be usable at the same time for many, many, many years.
However, might I suggest a small modification:
Leave the M and Z where they are, but make the J and Z expresses to Easter Pkway, but make a new route (the K?) to run from Jamaica Ctr./Parsons, thru 63st, down 6th ave, thru Christie st., over the Willy B. to Jamaica Ctr./Parsons making all stops. One train would hit all the new stations, and both levels of two.
That was tried with the first 6 AVENUE/BROADWAY BROOKLYN/JAMAICA service.Called KK,it was all local from 57 street to 168 street[except AM rush hours when the KK and QJ operated skip stop service toward Manhattan]. Had this line operated express in Brooklyn between Eastern Parkway and Essex street along with skip stop to and from Jamaica,it would most likely still be around today.
I had The K ides on Manhattan Bridge reroutes, but i called it the v
Bay Point Line?
I think Fred would rather see the N run express along Broadway and not switch over to the local track until just before 57th St. So would I.
If it has to merge with the R anyway, have it stop in the heart of Times Square. 49th Street is closer to many attractions than 42nd.
It could merge afterward, I've been on an F during the recent F's on B'way GO which switched over after 57th. Confused the hell out of people waiting for the S to Queensbridge.
I think your idea makes very good sense but I also think the Z should run express from Eastern Parkway to Myrtle Avenue. There's just one problem, the Manhattan Bridge. That bridge was simply not designed for heavy subway cars.
You know, considering how much money the City and the State have been pouring into fixing that piece of crap, they probably could have built a new tunnel to replace the bridge for the same amount of money. But considering how stubborn and stupid most New York State and City politicians are, a new tunnel will share the same fate as the 2nd Avenue Subway. But what other alternatives are out there?
When I was attending the nostalgia train event five years ago, the route is the following:
Transit Museum -> Culver Line -> Coney Island (nonstop) -> Brighton Line -> via Tunnel -> Whithall Street -> via Tunnel -> 4th Avenue -> West End Line -> Coney Island (one-hour stay) -> Culver Line -> Transit Museum
What is the route of this Sunday's nostalgia train? I know it starts from Columbus Circle to Transit Museum, and then via Culver line to Coney Island. I don't know whether it will travel via Brighton or West End lines.
Chaohwa
It will be travelling only on the Culver Line, in both directions, as far as I know.
wayne
I hope they go through Coney Island Yard on the way to Stillwell Terminal, so all can see the masses of cars sitting around the yard including numerous Museum Cars. I'll be skipping the 6/18 excursion, but I'll see about hopping on for 7/9 or 7/23. 7/23 - 35 Years since the D's were retired? Incredible!
-Stef
And a travesty, considering they were still rolling along as good as ever.
This morning's Boston Globe had a statement about the on-going woes of the introduction of the new Type-8 trolleys on the Green Line:
"The MBTA board has agreed to spend $10 million on a consultant to help Breda Corp. fix 100 new low-floor Green Line cars that are so flawed only five have been put into service. Originally scheduled to be phased in this year, the last of the 100 now will ot be operating until 2002, MBTA officials acknowledged. MBTA officials said Breda will reimburse the MBTA for the consultant's costs."
First of all, I have seen seven of these cars in revenue service (3802, 03, 04, 05, 08, 11, 12) during the past few weeks.
Secondly, I understand from a friend at the T that the software problems (propulsion, spin-slide braking, etc.) have been mostly resolved, and that the current issue is chaffed wiring inside the cars caused by improper installation. Unless there are more issues not yet public, fixing this needs a $10m consultant? Hoo-boy.
Finally, why can't Breda provide trouble-free cars to Boston? The San Francisco trolleys they delivered had start-up problems too, but they were resolved in reasonable time.
Hi Todd,
Very disconcerting especially in light of the fact I was (still am) coming up in July. Breda is no slouch. Cleveland didn't have these severe problems either. Of course these LRV's are more sophisticated but isn't that what good old fashioned R&D is all about?
Joe C.
How appropriate that the MBTA is getting a new generation of problem-plagued Green Line cars to replace the jinxed Boeing LRV's.
The MBTA should be experienced in working with AC technology, as they've operated the 01800's on the Red Line since the mid-1990's. From an outsider's perspective, it looks more and more like it's a Breda quality problem.
- Jim
Most of the Boeing LRV's that SF Muni refused on the assembly line went to Boston, as they had no one present at the factory. At least that's the way I heard it, through urban railfan legend.
I believe the SF Bredas have fundemantal problems like they are too long and too heavy, which causes them troubles on some of the tight radius S-curves. They were havaing a problem with repetitive derailments in the same location as I recall.
Dave
The big problem with the Bredas in SF is that most of the switches are 60 years old or more, and are single-point switches built in the era when PCC's were modern technology. Even the Boeings can only negotiate the single-points at 3-5 mph without derailing. The problem isn't with Breda or Boeing, the problem is that the vast majority of the MUNI's trackage is just CRAP (new lines, like the Brannan Extension and the Fisherman's Wharf Trolley (F-line) are not this way). If you ask me they need a MAJOR system overhaul instead of building all of these new highly political projects (like the new "Central Subway" which won't serve hardly anyone except the Civic Center).
Sorry, but I disagree. Those are the track conditions and the
vendor must deliver equipment that can work with them. This is
akin to Rockwell's argument that "our trucks weren't defective,
it was the shitty NYCTA track". Yes, the track was shitty, and
yes, there are some patches in MUNI that are a little rough, but
the vendor must evaluate these factors in their design.
I believe the problem is the longer wheelbase that the newest
cars have. Weight should not be a factor, at least at low
speed. In fact, if anything, increased weight should reduce the
chance of derailment.
a little rough? that's the understatement of the millenium! i'm assuimng that you have never actually ridden the MUNI....
between stations the track condition isn't what matters. It's the switches. MUNI bought a stock Breda design, not a custom-made car. And I sincerely doubt that the MUNI went to Breda and said "we have really shitty switches so make sure your LRVs are as light as a PCC". Those switches can't even handle the Boeings, which also derail on them. In fact MUNI has a couple of derailment-response crews on hand 24/7, that's how common it is.
I ride MUNI every time I go home, and the tracks are not great, but not horrible.
What resposible transit system WOULDN'T have a derailment team standing by just in case? That's the one fallacy of light rail: once one car is "in the dirt" every other one is backed up behind it.
Dave
fallacy? heavy rail is just as bad unless you have crossovers. and most light rail lines have more crossovers than then any IRT.
As we all know the Boeings were known in Boston for their ability to liberate themselves from the oppressive rails. Since their arrival virtually EVERY inch of rail (not just special work) in the system has been replaced, and the cars have been modified, re-modified and rebuilt (and then modified again)! And guess what! The Boeings are the picture of reliability, and the new Bredas are doing the same things the Boeings did 23 years ago, simply because they are again pushing the technology envelope ahead, and the system and its maintenance techniques have to catch up. The propulsion system doesn't seem to be a major factor in the Bredas, but the computerized controls and braking and the articulation with its split axle truck are very new technology and will have teething pains.
Could the successful Type 7s (designed to correct the Boeings flaws) and reborn Boeings have been equipped with wheelchair lifts and soldiered on? Probably, considering that Kinki was willing to build 20 more Type 7s on short notice. But the MBTA prides itself in continuing a policy of moving forward and innovating, and was willing to take on the teething pains of another push forward in the technology. Other purchasers and builders will probably benefit from the lessons learned. And Kinki will probably be willing to build the Type 9, which will replace the Type 7 and do everything the Type 8 does but far more reliably.
How long will the 55 remaining LRVs last? The oldest active PCC just entered the shop for its second rebuilding, just past its 55th burthday. Ad multos annos...
Gerry
I've ridden all over the MUNI system. As street railways go,
the track is poor in some areas but certainly not condemnable.
Yeah, you're right, I knew it had something to do with physical characteristics, but I forgot what.
There was also something about how they would only have problems with multiple car sets, I think.
Dave
Yeah, because of the lateral drawbar forces. In the curve of
a turnout, the coupling tends to want to push the cars to the
outside (and off the rail).
Because of the "swing" on the overhanging section, right?
I learned that lesson at age 8 with my HO trains, and somehow it escaped Breda?
Where can I get details on the proposed "Central Subway" online?
I grew up in SF and I'm curious...
The "Central Subway" is part of phase 2 of the Third St. Light Rail project. The reason I say it is political is that it doesn't serve the major emplyment areas closer to the Embarcadero. It does do good stuff too: The market St. Subway is maxed out already and the Central Subway provides for extensions to the Transbay Terminal (perhaps this will oneday connect to a rebuilt Key System operated by AC transit), and also connecting to Geary Blvd. (one of the busiest bus corridors in SF). Anyway enough blabber:
The webpage for the 3rd St. Light Rail (and Central Subway) is www.ci.sf.ca.us/muni/thirdst/.
A big picture of the 3rd St. light rail AND the CS is shown below:
Didn't Muni rebuild ALL their track as part of the Market St. subway program, and all the lines feeding it during the 70's??
Wouldn't derailments on switches be a factor also of bad wheel profiles?? Streetcar type wheels have small profiles to begin with.
No the Bredas in SF are indeed somewhat problem prone. They are overweight thus the tracks will have to rebuilt system wide. They also have raised the ire of residents as they are much noiier than previous cars(the infamous Boeings
0 As to Cleveland, in 1996 I was on a tour of the GCTRA Shops. Thre shoppersonnel basically said that the machines have only worked well since major components were repl;aced with domestic parts. Is this a fact? I report simply what the guys who do the repairs said.
IMHO the systemic problem with equipment acquisition for most US transit systems is an insane desire for custom cars which incorporate components not previously mated. The shining examples of better products have tended to be the "off the shelf" purchasers such as San Jose, Sacremento and others. For that matter the Boston Type 7's seem to be okay--I think they would have done better to buy more of the same and modify the platforms to meet ADA(which I unreservedly support!).
As someone who has lived in Italy, their products are beautifully designed. However their engineering is something else. Ever see an Italian made car in the United States vs other foreign made cars. FIAT tried their hands in the US market with the Strada (highway). Later Fiat meant Fix It Again, Tony.
As for Breda, beautiful design......, but....
I'll disagree with the "beautiful design". Breda's Light Rail equipment seems to be designed to win in an "Ugly Car Contest". To my somewhat biased point of view, plain and simple beats hi-tech "space age" for car design. The Type 8's are just plain unattractive when compared to the Type 7's. The MUNI Breda's are just plain ugly. The RTA LRV's are not good looking either -bulky semi-streamlined boxes on wheels.
The only non-ugly equipment delivered to a US operator are the ones Breda built for WMATA. Why? Because WMATA refused to accept a car that differed from the design made for the Rhor cars.
I disagree I think that the Breda Boston Low-floor cars are VERY good looking, and the MUNI ones aren't bad either. But if anyone wants to see a REALLY good looking car check out the Siemens SD-600 Low-floor car (currently in use on Portland, Oregon's MAX system)
I like the Type-7's. They work.
Why is it that the PCC was a committee and they came up with a good car, but everything else in this country designed by committee (ie: the Boeing LRV) is junk?
"Boeing knows planes, (therefore) Boeing knows railcars" A whole new set of "Bo Knows" ads!
I've been wheeling my four wheel cart of tools in and out of buildings for six years, and for that reason, I have nothing but praise for the ADA - those ramps are a life saver! Not to mention the elevators that are popping up (slowly) in the Subway.
Have you seen the wooden ramps on the Boston T? I can't imagine building those at every stop on the system. The operator has to get up and walk back and work the thing, assuming he's stopped in the right place. And even if you have them in the subway, there are still steps up to the street to deal with. I agree that a design standard should be used for LRT vehicles, but IMHO for Boston, the low floor/wheelchar design is the only way to go.
Dave
I have no emotional commitment to high or low platforms per se. The point as you so well describe is roll on--roll off. The San Jose and Sacto LRV systems present an interesting comparison. SJ bought expensive lifts for each station; Sacto built concrete ramps. DUH!!! As to usage shopping carts, laundry carts, wheeled luggage, work carts etc ALL benefit from ADA accomodation. My major complaint with the '8' was a claustrophobic sense of wasted space what with stairs, wheel well(?),--the walls seemed immensely thick as if equipment normally underneath was stowed in them. I suspect the MAX cars are better(expect to check them out in the fall).
The best is in NYC, where you can get ON one line at ONE station and have only about ten options for destinations, regardless of whether the transfes are possible!
(They are rapidly getting better)
Dave
my sources ( several voices in my head speaking in portugeuse ) have alerted me to plans of the mta to begin spraying the entire subway fleet to prevent an outbreak of railfan fever amongst the general public... of immediate concern is the june 18th operation of the triplex cars, when a large contingent of railfans and subtalkers is expected to crowd into the 6 cars of the 2 triplex units... several public health workers will be on the trip to quarantine any riders who start foaming at the mouth..
They could use a new and improved precipitron.:-)
This newspaper story from a few weeks ago may explain a few things
CHICAGO (UAP)
Reseachers at Rabbit labs (KSE:BUNY) today announced the development of an aerosol version of the popular drug Thorazine. Thorazine is used to treat psychosis and this new breakthrough is expected to bring relief to the thousands of people who suffer from foamer syndrome. Scientists are now looking for a test population
......GEE I HOPE NOT.......!!!!!!!!..........
Thorazine! Gabba gabba hey, Batman! SIGN US UP!
wayne
How bout closing the whole thing down until all the cars have no railfan window at all? Not even a window to watch the controls? That way, the subway won't stink more than it already does.
The railfans and subtalkers could be lured into d labor at the coney island complex fixing cars. This is god for he MTA because there wibe NO dissidents and th railfans would like it.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
daniel... i am not clear if you made some keying errors typing, or you were using a code to transmit what subway lines are to be sprayed today... if there was code in the message, then the instructions are for me and avid reader to start spraying the west 4th street station with large spray bottles of fantastik at 5 pm...
if you were suggesting that subtalkers be employed by the mta to repair subway cars, i am afraid that there are no management positions open that would be appropriate for our esteemed crew of city and transit planners...
This month's online edition of the Branford Tripper (which will become available in print shortly), the Museum's Monthly Newsletter (available only to the Members), a strange fella is pictured on top of the R-17 with a paint roller in one hand, and clutching a 600v wire in the other. Don't worry there's no power in the wire, or I'd be toast right about now. And who is he you ask? Why you're talking to him. Hehe. Oh well, it looks like the cat is out of the bag.
Thank the Stars! I've been boosted to super stardom. How much more can you ask for when you and your car are pictured? Applause, applause.....
-Stef
P.S. Members who would like to see the online edition of the Branford Newsletter before they get their printed edition in the mail, may go to www.bera.org, click on site map, then members sign-on. You're login is your membership pass number, and password, you're zip code. Enjoy.
Members who would like the power restored next time Stef grabs the wire, please email me....
Just kidding Stef... I think... BTW, who had to pull the knife switch the first time on top of the car?? Seemed everyone disappered when it came to that point and it was up to the tallest to kill the juice, or was your pole just too short??
There is a great shot of 6688 scrapped down, the old paint scheme of white with blue stripe can be seen in the online Tripper (hope it makes the printed version) as well as a tag from some graffiti "artist" from that period as well.
Doug/Thruston/Stef, more pictures please before we prime!!! I'll be there the 23rd to work but fear you all will get a lot done before then.
>Members who would like the power restored next time Stef grabs the wire, please email me....
Trying to be a wise guy, eh? Oh noooooooooo.
>Seemed everyone disappered when it came to that point and it was up to the tallest to kill the juice, or was your pole just too short??
HEY! What do you mean by that? My pole is quite fine, THANK YOU. This time around, Jeff H. pulled the power, I put it back on, charged the R-17 in it's entirety, and mauvered her into the loop, with Jeff watching the pole. Hey, it made my day.
>There is a great shot of 6688 scrapped down, the old paint scheme of white with blue stripe can be seen in the online Tripper
The scheme is Silver and Blue from the 70s, not White and Blue.
>Doug/Thruston/Stef, more pictures please before we prime!!!
Of course, you'll get more pictures. We'll see how we get with the priming.
-Stef
Sorry, the silver and blue picture is on the cutting room
floor for the printed version. I've only got so many column
inches per month and this month was very tight. That's one of
the "value-adds" of the online version. Not only do you get it
sooner, but the pictures are generally of higher quality, in color
where applicable, and sometimes there is an extra shot or two.
OTOH, I still think the printed version has a better overall look
to it than the HTML format.
I still shoot Black & White on occasion, I used to have a dark room too. (Not in my current 3room apartment).
Jeff, Off the topic perhaps but in the same general area...
Any luck with the IT PCC at CTM?
Gerry
Stef,
Enjoyed seeing the pictures, you must be a real young guy, since your hat is on backwards! :-)
I sure hope Jeff was not considering restoring the juice while you were using the wire to balance yourself.
I guessing, but I imagine that the third rail shoes have been long removed from 6688?
Jeff wouldn't put on the power, otherwise Lou Shavell would be short handed!
The third rail shoes on 6688 are still in place, but have been long disconnected from the knife switches on the car. Basically, the shoes these days are nothing more than display pieces.
-Stef
I have seen many descriptions of how the unbuilt second IND system would have been if it ever existed. But does any one have or know where you can find a fantasy map of these routes and how they would have coincided with the existing lines?
Joe Korman's web site has a good track map (Based on a German shareware BAHN). Check it out!
Thanks V.D. BMT for the insight. What is the website address?
I found this site has it also.
http://www.nycsubway.org/software/bahn/
Hello, my name is Eric Dale Smith (E_DOG). Like many of you I have been a transit buff for many years. Growing up in Freeport, NY I spent many an hour under the long since departed shadows of the old Jamaica Avenue El. In fact I can say that I have been riding the Els for all but three of my thirty five years. For most of that time I have been searching for books about the Els but as I'm sure most of you can relate, those type of books have been few and far between.
Yet whereas many of these books, articles, and pamphlets focused on the El itself, none have ever gone into any great detail as to what has the El so fascinating to people for over a hundred years; that is the role they've played in the creation of Greater New York, and the lives of the millions upon millions of people they've touched. Throughout my many journeys amid their shadows I have looked for such a book yet always I would be told "that no such book exists" and "that I would give almost anything to have such a book". In fact, more than one store owner or person on the street told me, "why don't YOU write a book about the El?" So I did.
Therefore, I am pleased to announce that in the late Fall of 2000 or early 2001, AmErica House Publishing Company of Frederick, Maryland will publish my work "Rolling Thunder: The Elevated Railroad and the Urbanization of New York". This social history of the El will examine its role in transforming what was once a loose confederation of competing cities, counties, and small towns into what has since become Greater New York. It will pay particular attention to the roles such lines as the late Manhattan/Bronx Third Avenue El and the still extant Brooklyn Broadway El played in the lives of the people living in the communities through which they passed. As such it is as much a story about the people living and working by the El as it is about the El itself for it is through the people and the lives it (the El) touched that we can best understand the evolution of New York City.
Therefore it is my hope that "Rolling Thunder" will prove to be a worthy contribution to the ongoing saga of our beloved city and that those who read it will come to love the El as much as I.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
E_DOG
Good luck with the publication, Eric. It should be a welcome addition to many of our libraries. I look forward to it.
I, too, can relate to the phenomenon known ad the El here in NY. I lived a stone's throw from the now-abandoned 3rd Ave El in the Bronx. I still reside at about the same distance from the Jerome Ave line at Bedford Park. For many of us, the El was our first experience with the rapid transit system and the hobby we love and enjoy, although not always pleasurable.
Once again, best of luck.
Joe C
Good luck with your work....Please put up a post when it is published advising as to where and how it can be obtained.
Sounds great! Sign me up for a review copy :-) Seriously, it sounds like it will make a big contribution to "the literature". I'll look forward to it.
-Dave
There have been a few books on the Manhattan els and one on Brooklyn els. I wish you luck and looking forward to seeing your new book. From a fellow NYC transit author.....
There is no bigger El fan than I.
One of the more priceless pieces of subway and el history is travelling a route and seeing the remnant or a stub of a junction to Where? One of the most intriguing od these was on the Myrtle Ave line where the stub for the long forgotten original (steam powered)Brooklyn El turned into a older looking building.
There were and are many examples of thes former junctions. In a few instances, we have pictures of the former extinct junction and the current or former stub structure. I guess, for me anyway, that was the romance of the El (and subways) when taking those railfan or sightseeing trips. The first time I saw the East NY complex (junctions to the Nth) was absolutely mind boggling. I had to go back and look at it from various perspectives for hours on many occassions, (after a trip on the Myrtle Ave Line in the gate cars).
I lived up in the Northern Bronx. So, one of my favorite junctions to watch was Woodlawn Junction, where the NY Central Harlem & the New Haven GCT line diverged. That sweeping flying overhead pass from the southbound New Haven tracks to the junction was something to see in the evening rush. To see the New Haven Electics reach for the AC overhead as they proceded north, or shut the pantographs down as they came south. Seeing the big NH motor units merging or diverging along side the NYC T or U Units (sometimes doubleheaded) was a sight to see at that junction. And throw in many sets of MU cars proceeding each way, what a sight.
The junction at White Plains road with the 3rd Ave line coul be viewed from up the hill on Gun Hill Road. Watching the laid up cars setting up for the evening runs, and then tieng up for evening after the rush lent a great deal of activity to that junction.
And, of course, the Yard leads, never a dull moment.
Other remnants or stubs I can think of are:
1. The stub on the Broadway Brooklyn line just west of the Willie B that used to go to Broadway Ferry.
2. The Jamaica line over Fulton St. just west of Crescent St. where you can see where the connection to the LIRR Atlantic Ave. line was
3. Broadway Junction and Atlantic Ave.(L) where you can see the old connections to the Fulton St. El
When you see those stubs, you are looking at the links to past transit history. I can remember my first (subway) trip to the Polo grounds in the late 40's, and coming up street level and seeing that remnant of, (my first rialfan inquiry) where did that line go to Daddy? Oh, he said. That was the 9th Ave El. And, I was hooked from then on.
My father is gone now.
However, to my fellow dads and thier dads and thier dads,
Happy Father's Day,
Take your children to see a train, trolley, or take a el or subway train into some transit history. Pass the railfan romance on.
During my research for "Rolling Thunder" I learned that in the 1950s there had been serious talk regarding the possible rehabilitation of the Manhattan portion of the Third Avenue El and making it into a tourist attraction on the order of the San Francisco Cable Cars. If one were to see the Sunday River Production's (check to see if I have the right company) of the "Third Avenue El" one will see how the Transit Authority would actually allow groups filming the El to disembark. Then the train would go into reverse and then reenter the station so as to allow these people to film its arrival.
I say this because the El has long been regarded as a potential tourist attraction but those of us who love mass transit have long been regarded as being just to the right side of Trekkies. With "Rolling Thunder" I hope to end that perception permanently. Now, the Brooklyn Broadway El is all of one hundred and twelve years old. In fact those stringers between Lexington and Gates Avenue actually go back to 1885 for remember that Gates and Broadway was the original terminus of Brooklyn's first elevated line, the long departed Lexington Avenue El. With that much history, and with transit buffs with vivid memories of the Els possibly numbering in the millions nationwide, would it not be possible to use these websites, "Rolling Thunder" and all the attendant literature as the starting off point for turning the Broadway El and other historic existing lines into tourist attractions?
As crazy as it sounds, I can yet imagine the squeals of delight coming from little children as they ride a reproduced steam hauled train from Marcy Avenue out to Cypress Hills, the old stations, as much as possible, restored to their former glory. If that were to happen would there not also be an attendant cleanup of the neighborhoods surrounding the line and with it a sharp decline in crime, poverty, and disease? If the Cable Cars can do this for San Francisco, and the St. Charles and Riverfront Streetcars can do it for New Orleans, then why can't the Els do it for New York?
The Broadway El is an untapped gold mine sitting right in the heart of Brooklyn. The completion of the Archer Street subway twelve years ago and the reconstruction of the Williamsburg Bridge crossing a year ago means that it is not going anywhere anytime soon. In these booming times the resources are there and I would hope that all of us, by working together, could come up with a way to make it come to pass for by in effect turning the El into a "living" classroom, we can ensure that it survives well into the next century.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
The Transit Authority would actually allow groups filming the El to disembark.
This was done a couple of times with fan trips... not sure if this was the Third Avenue or on the Myrtle.
I can ... imagine ... a reproduced steam hauled train from Marcy Avenue out to Cypress Hills.
Nice to imagine, but reality says it won't happen. Can you imagine the field day the Upper West Side environmentalists would have with the smoke issue (as they come and go in their diesel Mercedes)?
The general idea of using the el as a classroom, however, has merit. I ride the trains as much to observe the people and the changing face of modern society as for any other reason. I had a great deal of exposure to various types of living when I was growing up - in and out of the City, semi-rural upbringing in upstate NY, small town Pennsylvania living during the summer, Barcelona (Spain) for a year - and as an adult have lived everywhere from a big city (Chicago) to small-town Michigan, upstate New York, rural North Carolina, and the Jersey Shore (the last two of which I divide my time between now). The subway and els provide an excellent way to study the City, its people and its neighborhoods. For the technically inclined, it provides an interesting education in engineering methods as they have evolved over the past century as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steam trains are unlikely, but you might be able to have a money-making tourist attraction using vintage electric equipment. The Broadway el would be good bet because it comes out of Manhattan over the Williamsburg Bridge - great views right at the start of the trip. There's room at the Chambers St. station to have a separate platform for these nostalgia trains.
Tourists are always looking for a new sensation, and they're willing to pay for it. Consider the prices charged by Disney World, the Circle Line, etc. If you have a unique attraction, people will accept what you charge for it. I suspect people are getting tired of pre-fabricated theme parks and are looking for more "reality-based" vacations. The el train rides could work if they are marketed properly.
Take encouragement from the following--when the first half of the F Market Trolley line went into service some years back(see Todd Glickmans post above) it tripled previous ridership on the ETB it replaced. AND (again see above) both the full F line and the Cable Cars(which charge extra to non pass riders, are always busy. So yess I think a weekend nostalgia Chambers to the Junction would fill out.
A point I have made before is the window the el provides to life on the street below. An el rider knows that there is a drapery store halfway between stops, or that there is a liquor store at the bottom of the steps at a certain stop, something a rider on the subway would never learn. And the street under an el is always alive when the trains are running, a lesson sorely learned by the businesses on the east end of Jamaica Av.
Good luck with the book!
Gerry
Well my first subway recording session was remarkably sucessful although there were some little hitches. I was using the built in mike on my Radio Shack cassette recorder/player. I had not done any testing with it and I greatly underestimated its recording power/sensitivity. Basically it recorded everything. Here is a rundown of Jersey Mike The the Subway Home: Episode 1a
I pressed record right before i entered the turnstyle at 34th St. and right after my PATCO train popped out of the tunnel at CP-MILL, for a total of about 29 minutes of audio. Hi-lites include all basic subway sounds, door chimes, horns and anouncements. You feel like you there us the trains runble through interlockings and as Jersey Mike runs up and down stairs. Listen in to other people's conversations, Jersey Mike eating and some local kid pretending to be a Braod St. Line train. Suffer hearing loss from the extremely loud rumbling of the real BSl trains. Listen to the artful musical accompanyment as jersey Mike makes his "great escape" crom Philly and experiance a heart warming interview with a US&S signal. Feel the anger as Jersey Mike is screwed out of the rearward railfan window by some ASS HOLE who proceeded to go to sleep. Be annoyed my the overly hard footfalls intended for a weaker microphone and to indicate to the listener that jersey Mike is in transit. Note the confusion when Jersey Mike stublmes down the steps at 15/16th to find a fully loaded train waiting to leave. Will he get on this packed train or will he wait for the next one??? Listen to this exciting recording and find out. And finally, the NEVER BEFORE RECORDED sound of a US&S electro-penumatic switch operating.
Well that's the Hollywood style rundown. my only problem now is A) getting it from the tape to my PC and B) getting the mp3 from my PC to all of you. I also mightmake another recording, this time with more commentary and maybe more of a muical score and a little plot.
EdiToriAL: This little jaunt has sown me how fun and easy making a subway recording is. I encourage all of you to get a little recorder and then tape your commute to work. even listening to it yourself can prove quite funny and informative.
Done this a few years back on the 4... got mostly
nothing but infant wails.. would rather tape a r33.
Anyone else here going on the NYCRRS tour Saturday, 6/26?
-Hank
Umm Hank, the 26th is a Monday.
I know Doug (BMT Man) was looking to go and calling Cross Harbor but they were not returning his calls. He thought it was this Saturday, 17th.
Fat fingers, what can I say...
I had the right day. Cross-Harbor had nothing to do with it. Anyhow, I'll be compressing the video later so I can upload it tonight.
-Hank
Just wanted to wish all Subtalk dads a great one! It'll be made better this year by Sunday's trip.
Howard: Happy fathers day to you, too---and to all of you out there.
I've already gotten a gift----An authentic New Era New York Mets hat, which I'm proudly wearing right now and will bring to New York with me in August. I wonder if I should wear it on the "D" train to Yankee Stadium when we see the Yanks play. I wonder if that would be too provocative.
As a Met fan, Fred, I'm sure you remember Jim Bunning's perfect game at Shea on Father's Day, 1964!
Trivia question - who made the last out?
Bob, you got me. Please let me know.
What IS a perfect game?
A perfect game is when a team comes to bat 27 times (9x3) and no player on the team makes it to first base, either by getting a base hit or a walk. The winning pitcher is credited with pitching a perfect game, providing he pitches the complete game.
And the difference between that and a simple no-hitter are the walks?
[And the difference between that and a simple no-hitter are the walks?]
Yes. A walk, hit batsman or error is the difference between a perfect game and a no-hitter.
My mom, a widow but an avid baseball fan, took me to that game via the # 7 from Bliss Street. We sat in the upper deck in the general admission seats. IIRC it was the first game of a double header. I believe that the last out was made by John Stephenson, a catcher. If I am wrong I seem to believe that it was a left handed Met batter. I remember the second baseman for the Phillies, Tony Taylor, making a great stop on a ground ball in the 6th or 7th inning to preserve (at that point) the no-hitter. As the game went on and the crowd realized what was happening they starting rooting for Bunning and against the Mets.
With all the talk of the work being done, or not being done on the Manhattan Bridge, I was wondering if the trains are running on the Willy B again. I missed out on it last summer and will take advantage of it if I know the work has been completed and the rails are humming with activity. Please let me know.
Work's done, but the trains move at about 20MPH.
Why so slow?
When I did my mission to ride the whole subway that summer, I didn't got to ride the bridge until opening week over a month after I accomplished the rest of my mission, now I want to ride all of the tracks, terminals excepted for now. I'm done with the IRT and most of the rest.
The Jamaica-bound J train we were on last fall was huffing and puffing at 18 mph on the upgrade.
True, but today I was on an R40M/R42 hybrid J train doing 50 MPH down the center track from Myrtle to Hewes, until it hit that @!$#%& GT signal.
BTW, I haven't seen a solid R40M or R42 train on any Eastern Division line in 2 years, with the exception of the Willy B closure, which saw the J shuttle completely made of R42's. Why are these 2 car types continually mixed up?
Makes it easier for the yard master!
The M had a solid Coney Island R42 and solid 40M recently.
No good reason to go out of the way to keep them seperate. They both handled about the same when I was a M/M, appearance wise they're close enough.
The R-40Ms and R-42s together is small potatoes compared to the smorgasbord trains they ran for a few years on the B division. I hated that!
So did I. The A division was bad enough with their 3 way mixes. Which translated to B division cars meant most trains except Pelham (2 way mix) and Flushing(no mix) were equal to an R10, Rl6, and R27 in one. The WORST mix: R32 and R38. The 38 had a rottnen enough brake. mix with the R32--the most positive brake of all what a lousy handling train.
Faster than barging them across. Well, a little faster. Besides, no need to worry about traffic on the river.
I was coming home from taking a Regents today, when all of a sudden, the Q30 said the President was in Jamaica today. The Q30 to Jamaica turned from Utopia Pkwy and went along union turnpike in the direction of the Q46 to LIJ hopsital to 188th street. Then we followed the Q17 route to Hillside and 169 making a left onto 169 and continuing the Q30 route from there to Merrick boulevard. I heard the president was somewhere near Jamaica Center. Does this mean then Long Island Railroad Trains were skipping Jamaica? and most of all, Did the E,J,Z service get affected? I was unable to go Railfanning today because I went to a Job interview, and I made up for it by going R142 hunting yesterday. Needless to say, I didn't find them in service. I decided to take a Refresher course on the White Plains road line. I took the uptown 2 to E 180th street and waited there for the Dyre Avenue shuttle. I took the shuttle to Dyre Avenue, because June of this year makes one year since I have been to Dyre avenue, and plus,
I have never ridden the Redbird Dyre shuttle ever, until yesterday. I took pics as well.
I decided to replicate the SIR SubTalk walk today on my bike. I rode up Richmond Terrace and followed the tracks att the way up past the Bayonne Bridge. I saw three rusted stations, but no way to gain access to them! How did the SubRTalkers that went on that trip get up on the elevated portion and down in the cut under the bridge? I was a little disappointed, but the whole tripo from the ferry and back only took an hour and a half.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
There is a point several blocks east of Port Richmond Ave. where the ROW is at grade level and unrestricted. The growth along parts of the line, however, must be terrible by now.
The growth was worse than terrible. I tried going up an ebamkment but there were too many plants. I got some photos though.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
**NEW** NJ Transit section!
Check out the tracks near Snug Harbor and underneath the stands at the new ball park.
ANd this is in response to?
-Hank
Hank, it was in response to a post by someone who had tried to follow the SIR Northshore line on his own and complained of the difficulty of getting near the tracks or seeing them from a distance.
When I posted my comment, I didn't realize that the prior post was about to be deleted.
It was really there.
Honest.
Go figure, its when I'm not looking for it. I got it at Columbus Circle going downtown, rode it to Euclid and back to 168st. I will probably never see it again. Some things I noticed:
1. Interior digital signs blank.
2. Car 3002 has no PA system.
3. A/C is incredibly cold.
4. Storm doors are called slam doors.
4a. Keyhole for lock is on the wall, not the door, and you need a key to open the door from the outside as well, unlike the R-44/46/68.
5. Car cleaners at Euclid try to fit a regular key into a square hole. Only one had the brains to realize to use the 'vapor key' (whatever that is), the only square key on the chain.
6. The cars can go 55 in the Cranberry tunnel.
7. The exterior digital signs and door chimes work only on 3004-6.
8. Seats are bum-unfriendly (I tried to lay down, couldn't).
9. There are still B division cars with metal straps in service (thank goodness!).
10. Three person crew, T/O in front, C/R in back, some other guy in the middle (car inspector hat).
11. TA couldn't decide wether to use bright white with bluish tint fluorescent blubs, or dimmer with pinkish tint, so they decided to mix and match.
12. The B still goes to 168th, and the C and H go to Broad Channel (strip map).
13. A 402' train pulling up to the 10 marker at B'way E. NY, Chambers, 34st/Penn, and Franklyn while heading uptown makes a lot of people run.
14. No one likes to advertise in a train that runs about once a day.
"11. TA couldn't decide wether to use bright white with bluish tint fluorescent blubs, or dimmer with pinkish tint, so they decided to mix and match."
Is the difference possibly cool white tubes as compared to warm white tubes?
Probably, I only buy new tubes for my kitchen once every 3 years, so I never really get to notice the difference.
06/17/2000
[Is the difference possibly cool white tubes as compared to warm white tubes?]
Re: Flourescent tubes.
WARM WHITE......White with a pinkish tint
COOL WHITE......White rendition, yet different manufacturers will
have various shades of white.
DAYLIGHT........White with a bluish tint
And that's our lesson in bulbology 101 for today, see y'all at Home Depot!!
Bill "Newkirk"
BTW- Look at any one of those 36 or 56 watt bulbs used by the TA. It says "Street railway" on the top. That's funny, we ain't had no street railway here since 1957 !!! Perhaps a special bulb with a heavy duty filament for voltage drops and surges.
Speaking of flourescent bulbs, I am curious about something.
The lights on R-33's and R-36's with the original "flickering" lights - the tubes that are bad or worn are dim and you can see the vapor fluttering, like on most other flourescent bulbs that are nearing the end. But I don't see this on any of the other [non-flickering/GOH] lights. The bad tubes are completely off. No fluttering and no dimming. Any explanations?
06/17/2000
JerseyDevil,
Beats me !
Bill "Newkirk"
Everything up to and including the R-40/R-40M were built with DC ballasts that require polarity reversers. If the polarity reverser isn't working properly, the fluorescent gases tend to make their way to one end of the tube, so the other end is discolored and dim. All cars, other than the R-33S/R-36, now have AC ballasts and inverters, and don't require polarity reversers. (There is one R-33S that has the AC ballasts and inverters.)
David
It is car number 9336. That car has the same style lighting as the R-33MLs.
Or just plastic light covers that did not hold up well? Sometimes they discolor over time.
Are theyattached to a regular longitudnal bar (finally, the spirit of compromise)? Orattached to the ceiling with no bar (hopefully this is the last train with this feature)?
They are attatched to a regular longitudinal bar, just like the buses.
(R110B/R131 handholds)
They are the same as were originally found on the R-14 and R-15, a small, square handhold set on the bar at an angle.
wayne
At around 4, all power was cut to the third rails of the Lex lines from 14st south because of an incident on the downtown 6 at Bleeker. Two trains were stuck in the station on emergency lights. They first restore power to Uptown Local, Uptown Exp, Downtown Exp, and those trains leave. But, a downtown 6 of R-29s pulls in, all lights on emergency, and stops in the station. About 5 minutes later the lights come on and it leaves. The cars were hot as hell when the doors opened, so obviously the A/C was off for a while. So, how did the train move under no 3rd rail power?
What happen was a person was running around the Tracks. The T/O and C/R tried to Radio Control Center and Grand Central tower but no answer. Luckly The T/O pulled the power box. Also about at the same time a Uptown No.4 was checking out a possible 12-9.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news/ap/20000616/ap-subwayseries.html - any thoughts?
oops, here's the clickable link - http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news/ap/20000616/ap-subwayseries.html
Of course the article didn't say that they could take the #7 to Queensboro Plaza, cross the platform, take the N one stop to Lexington Ave, go downstairs and take the #4 to the stadium.
The article didn't say how long the players would have to wait for the connecting train. They can have a train waiting at Shea, but at the connecting station ???
Also will the teams co-mingle or travel in seperate cars and will the public be allowed on those particular cars?
I'd bet the #7 would be a special player-only train, running express down the Flushing line. A special #4, going non-stop from Grand Central to 161st St. would be in order as well.
slide a 5-car r36 train down the layup track to GCT
or other connection and repeat procedure with r33's
on the 4 line.. presto!!
5 cars should be enough for players, coaches & police.
I can see it now: A major brawl occurs; Yankee and Met players fight over who gets to look out of the railfan window at the front of the train.
LOLROTF
Or they'll get into an argument over which line is better.
[I'd bet the #7 would be a special player-only train, running express down the Flushing line. A special #4, going non-stop from Grand Central to 161st St. would be in order as well.]
Which sort of takes the whole point out of it. If the teams really wanted to show their appreciation of the city and its fans, they'd pay their way onto ordinary trains. Guess that's too crude for the poor (millionaire) darlings.
Allowing Met and Yankee players to mingle with the regular crowds on the subway could create safety concerns. You'd have to deal with the nutjobs, love-struck women and autograph hounds which could clog both lines and bring them to a standstill.
It'd have to be done as a surprise. If nobody knew in advance when, or what train, then the problem would be limited. Sort of like when the President is going to be in an area... several possible routes are available but nobody really knows which one will be used until the limo goes by.
06/17/2000
9306WF,
The easier route would be the #7 to Grand Central and the #4 to Yankee Stadium.
Bill "Newkirk"
If they do this, it'll be with special reserved trains, and portions of stations closed to the general public. Grand Central is too hectic for them to that at, so they will go to 5th Ave. and take a "D" train. Not a regular one, either.
They'd start with the 7 special that would run on the Flushing center track. Two cars (one married pair) is all they'd need. Non-stop to 5th Ave.-42nd St. at the front end of the platform. When they get there, the passage connecting to the Sixth Ave. line will be temporarily closed to regular passengers. The team walks through, and goes to the front of the uptown platform - regular passengers are kept on the part of the platform south of the connecting passage, the team uses the area to the north. A pair of cars that was waiting on the express track at 34th St. (with normal B and D service diverted to the local track from W 4th to 34th) pulls in just as they arrive, alerted by radio of their arrival. They ride non-stop to 161st St., where a cordoned-off path into the stadium awaits them.
Not your average subway trip. In fact, it kind of defeats the purpose of the subway representing how ordinary people get to the games. Maybe they'll drop the whole thing and not inconvenience people with something like this. They probably should.
Maybe they should just let the teams go by limo and make the umpires take the subway. (Of course, if they did that, there wouldn't be a second game.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No,better yet, let the UMPS take the limo...for once! [Yes, I am an umpire....] But semi-seriously, can just see the photos now- Joe Torre posed with his hands on the air handle and controller...Valentine in a conductors hat,his head stuck out of the window...Jeter or somebody with their face pressed against the railfan window...too bad the Mets got rid of Rickey Henderson, or they could've had a pic of Rickey JUST arriving on the platform as the Mets special leaves...
I kind of like that Jason Tyner lad. I think he could be another Brett Butler, and I'll look forward to taking the #7 when I go see the Mets on August 17. The group I'm traveling with is going by bus, but there will as much chance of my taking the bus as a snowball in hades. To me riding the subway to a game, and then back again, especially if your team wins, is the only way to go. I loved doing it that way as a kid and I still love it now. GO METS!!!!!!
Ahh...yo're going for Senior Citizens Day....
OK.
-Hank :)
Hey Hank: Is that Senior Citizen's Day or are you just giving a bad time because I'm 59? That's the day when my Sports Travel group goes to Shea. What kind of a fellow Mets fan are you. You're going to force me to look in the mirror and see if I'm as really old as you make me sound.
I looked at my schedule. 8/17 is marked with a nice little 'SC'. That's a senior citizens day. I didn't know how old you were, I was just teasing....but I figured I'd be close to the truth.
-Hank :)
Hank, too close for comfort. But I think I'm young at heart. Anyway, that's when the Sports Travel Group gets into town. I saw the Mets twice at Dodger Stadium, and will try to see them a few more times this year.
I'm going tonight! :)
-Hank
Have a great time and root them home for both yourself and me.
I read in one of the newspapers today or yesterday that the Mets have decided to take a bus. I will refrain from comments so as to not offend anyone on BusTalk.
ThisB is not the first time a baseball team has ridden the subway. In 1998, the San Diego Padres took the #4 from Grand Central to Yankee Stadium for Game 1 of the World Series. This was ok, because everyone new the Yanks would kick their a$$. But the Padres said that people were actually nice, and even wished them good luck....even though they knew who they were really routing for.
This would be cool if this happened, especially since I'll be at the make-up game on July 8th. Maybe that special train (even if it isn't for regular passengers) could be the R142 or R142A on the #4 or #7...even though it won't normally go on those lines; at least not for the 30 day test.
But here is something I would really like to see: On June 29th (less than 2 weeks away!), I'd like to see John Rocker take the #7 to Shea!!-Nick
I'll be at the makeup game as well....
-Hank
Rockhead ain't gonna be on the 7 any time soon, as the Braves decided to eliminate the problem at the source by optioning him to the minors.
Rockhead fumed awhile, said he might quit baseball altogether, then thought better of it and showed up at the minor team. The press, which considers AAA to be the baseball equivilant of Siberia, ignored the entire affair.
Perhaps we can all sleep a little easier and concentrate on things of real importance, like Redbirds, the Manny B and if we will see the 2nd Avenue subway in our lifetimes.
So A is the equivalent of Jupiter?
No, I said the press (read media) consider Triple A baseball to be the equivalent of Siberia. Triple A gets no coverage whatsoever in any of the cities that happen to have a Major League Baseball franchise.
[Triple A gets no coverage whatsoever in any of the cities that happen to have a Major League Baseball franchise.]
In Philly all the local minor league teams get a little daily coverage: AAA Scranton-Wilkes Barre Phillies, AA Reading Phillies, Trenton Thunder and Wilmington Blue Rocks.
BTW, Rockhead was brought back up to Atlanta last week.
Bob
Oh, piffil!!!
Thought the Braves had more sense. (Of course, they did acquire him (and the baggage) from wherever. Wonder how long it will take for Rockhead to start another contraversy?
Yanks take the 7, Mets take the D, Rockhead goes by black-windowed limo.
How does that contradict what I said?
AAA is Siberia, AA is Mars (but a heck of a lot more fun), A is Jupiter, and short-season A is out beyond Pluto.
OTOH, I was a big fan of the Durham Bulls back when they were a single-A Atlanta franchise. Now that they're a AAA Devil Rays affiliate, who cares? If you're going to watch a tight ball game with a few famous names, I suppose you could go to AAA, but if you want to watch a ball game where the players and the fans are all having a blast and no one really cares too much about who wins, single A is the place to be. The small park environment is tremendous.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You haven't been following the AP sportswire. Rocker was recalled last thursday, I believe. In his first appearence, hit made 6 pitches. All balls. They yanked him. He did get the save Saturday(?) night in Philly, however.
-Hank
Okay I said I'd make a map of my Nostrand Av. Light Rail Line and I did. The base map is a USGS Topographic Map (a little dated, if you look carefully you can still see the Myrtle Av. El on it). I overlaid it with thin lines for all of the existing subways - abandoned or disused tracks are black (such as the F express or the Chrystie St. Connection). Then the thick light blue line is the Light Rail. As you can see it interchanges (from north to south) with the G, L, M/J/Z, G, A/C, 3/4, 2/5, and D/Q/S. And of course, this could always be extended in either direction. Since this IS Light rail, the stations (represented by BLUE dots) are about 1/4 mile - 1/6 mile apart; close for a subway, but not for a Light Rail. I figure if people wanted something faster they could use the G. So anyway, since I've described this enough, here's the map:
NOSTRAND AV. LRT
So what does everyone think?
I like it. Brooklyn just hasn't been the same without the Dodgers or its trolleys. At least this way, it could have trolleys again. But how might you keep traffic from interfering with the trolleys?
In Portland, OR for ecample, they have radio thingys on top of the trolleys that cause the lights to be timed with them. At first I thought it was the luckiest day of my life that we were making every light.
In some of my more millitant pro-transit moods, I think that every bus should also get one of those things, so it would be easier for the bus and (purposefully) harder for everyone else.
AMEN! Actually in some cities this has been implemented on frequent bus lines. Three bus routes in Oakland currently have those same radio thingies on top that cause the lights to go green. Also, in SF i believe the 22-fillmore bus does this. I know Portland is currently working on a system whereby it's route 72-82nd/Killingssworth and 33-McLoughlin will also be timed. Also, the LRVs would run in a seperate lane, so they wouldn't get clogged by the other cars. With the stations every quarter-mile, average overall speed would be 15-20 mph. It may not seem like a lot but remember this is counting the stops. There's nothing wrong with being militantly pro-transit. I am :)
---Abe
I don't see how that is being militant!
If it happened in NYC, you can bet every clown would be tailgating the bus to take advantage. Ever see what happens with an ambulance going northbound on the Van Wyck??
they could get those signs like some fire trucks have:
"Keep Back 300 Feet"
How are you supposed to measure that while you're flying along chasing the fire truck?
;-)
Dave
Start saving up your money!
....Recently the same ""CAL TRAIN"" that failed miserable on the GIANTS STADIUM opening day ""Broke Down""
when the extreme heat in the bay area of northern california was hit with a record 100 + extreme heat.......
sections of the cal train tracks were warped out of shape ..!!.... Guess they had to repalce many sections of track........
this report came down to us here in southern california where it was much cooler ......
follow up on this..the weather cooled off to allow repairs & does the same thing happen to the long island railroad ??
& the subway in nyc???
who knows. railroads aren't the only transportation mode affected by heat; here in Tacoma (out in the great northwest) it got so hot last summer that a portion of I-5 buckled, damaging the undercarriages of several cars passing over it. Took 2 days to fix - even now the place is obvious because it is the only strip of Asphalt pavement on an otherwise fully concrete freeway
In my l2 year NYCT career I never heard of such an incident, nor did I hear of it on other area systems. The first "sun kinks" I encountered were when I went railroading for BN in Montana. At first I thought it was because it happened on welded rail..no joints to take up the expansion from heat, but the old timers told me it happened with bolted rail too. The thing I noticed of course was that the sun was more severe in the wide open spaces, no smog or murky skies and thought that might be the reason. But then the west coast areas mentioned are all urban areas. So I haven't given a total answer but something to think about. Anyone from the NY area have reports of sunkinks?
Well, my experience with this problem comes from North Carolina, not New York - back when NS was still running N&W 611 and 1218 on steam excursions one of them had to be rerouted because sun kinks buckled some newly-redone rail. It seems the CWR was laid during the February cold snap - temps below freezing - and the mid-April temps had gone into the 90s. Over one mile of rail had to be replaced. Fortunately, the inspectors spotted the problem before the train did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I recently bought a map entitled "System Route Map - Boston Elevated Railway" - sixth edition.
It's in very good shape but there are tears at some of the corners (its folded very thickly). Before
I open it too many times, what landmarks (or timemarks) can I look for to date the map?
ps the last date on the outside of the map is 1942.
my many thanks,
Ken Jones
I have a copy of the seventh edition, the last published by the 'El'.
To get the date, look at several routes to the north of Boston, in particular the three terminating at Clarendon Hill from the east (87, 88, 89 after 1947) and the Malden Sq. to Faulkner (102 after 1947). If the Clarendon Hill to Sullivan is a triangle (trackless) the map is post 1946. If the Malden to Faulkner is a triangle, the map is post 1943. If the Malden to Faulkner is a square (bus) and the two Clarendon Hill to Lechmere lines are triangles the map dates from 1942 or early 1943. 1941 or earlier maps show the two Clarendon Hill to Lechmere lines as circles (streetcar).
I hope this is helpful.
Gerry
From a most reliable source, a new LIRR President has been selected.
Initials are C.K. and also comes from the wide world of NYC Transit. Details to follow......... Name should be known to old-time transit people...........
Charles Kalkhof?
David
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Not that anyone cares, but I'm coming to New York next weekend and would like to ride the HBLR.
How would I connect to it from Newark Penn? What's the fare structure?
PATH to Exchange Place for $1. Up the escalator and out the door towards the left and you are there. There is only one PATH line out of Newark. Exchange Place is the stop after Grove Street. The HBLR is $1.50 good for 90 minutes from when you validate the ticket.
Don't ride in the first car. It doesn't open at Exhange Place. Or, do what I do - ride in the first car until Grove Street, then pass to the second car. Cross when the train is in the station, since they don't like people to cross between cars when the train is moving - the conductor is right there in the first and second cars too, so chances are you wouldn't get away with it.
In the NY Times of 6.17.2000, page B2, the West Side politicians are complaining that the 2/5 thru express swap in The Bronx will lead to more crowding at 72nd & Broadway. For several months I have heard arguments (at the NYCTRC meetings) that the swap would cause more crowds on the Lex. Now the claim is that the crowds will switch to the #2 thru express at E180 and crowd the trains through 72nd Street. I find both complaints weak and rather selfish: East Siders and West Siders saying, "Don't let any more people travel on our train," as if the subways belonged only to Manhattanites. From observation at (let's say) 149th Street, lower level, I wonder whether the trains heading down Lex carry more passengers or the trains heading for the west side. Or, I wonder what are the most desired destinations of those boarding at the local stations skipped by the thru-expresses.
second ave line
second ave line
second ave line
second ave line
second ave line
second ave line
...with ATO and cab signaling of course.
Not to mention track doors for ZPTO--rush hour service all day!--and quiet, clean, air conditioned stations.
You might ask the following questions, before opting for an expensive and time consuming solution:
Are the existing tracks and signal system carrying the maximum amount of trains that they capable of handling?
How do you explain the fact that current rush hour service levels are approximately 25% less than they were 50 years ago?
Easy: Safety concerns, car shortages, and the Manhattan Bridge fiasco. All have conspired to limit service these days.
Easy: Safety concerns, car shortages, and the Manhattan Bridge fiasco. All have conspired to limit service these days.
What impact does the Manhattan Bridge have on Lex Service from the Bronx in the morning rush hour?
The system is still capable between 30 to 40 tph regardless of the "safety" issues. The slower speed does require more trains for the same service level.
The car shortages have been induced by NYCT maintenance practices that have ignored the problem of car availability. I have discussed the MDBF metric at great length. The present 85% availability figure has not changed despite tripling and quadrupling the MDBF. This 85% figure implies that 97% of the individual cars are available were they not permanently mated in groups of 5. There would be a 10% gain in availability, if the cars were still single units and their MDBF were reduced so that individual car availability were only 92%. Three extra trains would be freed for Lex express service and bring service levels back near 30 tph.
None of these problems is insurmountable. None requires new lines, new technologies or major construction projects.
The Manhattan Bridge situation has casued the capacity of Manhattan-bound trains coming through the Dekalb Ave. corridor to be reduced by one-third. Crowding has limited the number of trains on the Lexington Ave line, as they take longer to load and empty at each station. With increased safety concerns, especially the GO forbidding TO's to "key" red signals, the number of trains that can be relalisticly run on any given subway line becomes affected. 20 years ago you could run more trains on the Lex simply because trains could run closer together, something they can't do today.
The Manhattan Bridge situation has casued the capacity of Manhattan-bound trains coming through the Dekalb Ave. corridor to be reduced by one-third.
Which downtown IRT trains are affected by the Manhattan Bridge? Please be specific - cite routes, stations etc. Specifically how has this affected loading patterns at Grand Central during the morning rush hour?
Crowding has limited the number of trains on the Lexington Ave line, as they take longer to load and empty at each station.
How long? What is the average loading time and standard deviation at the various stations? How does this compare to similar data from previous years?
With increased safety concerns, especially the GO forbidding TO's to "key" red signals, the number of trains that can be relalisticly run on any given subway line becomes affected. 20 years ago you could run more trains on the Lex simply because trains could run closer together, something they can't do today.
You will find it very difficult to prove this assertion. Red aspects were obeyed. Keying-by might be required for 40+ tph operation. It is not reqired for 30 tph operation. It takes approximately 50 seconds for a red aspect to clear. That still leaves 70 seconds for stopping (20 sec), starting (20 sec) and dwell - 30 seconds. If you survey actual loading times, you will see that 30 tph is a low ball estimate of existing capacity.
I'm not a numbers addict like you are, and I can't get into a war of statistics with someone whose more comfortable with them than I. As I said, responding to the person who said that 50% of the subway lines are overcrowded, I re-state that most of this can be accounted for by only 4 major areas of concern: The East Side IRT, Queens Blvd. IRT, Flushing IRT and the Dekalb Ave. corridor.
But not all, says the person.
You have given some reasons for what we both agree is NYCT'S rather dismal performance. You have proposed some reasons for this performance. The reasons you have stated have been outside NYCT's control.
I have challenged the relevance of these reasons. I have also proposed simple numerical tests to prove or disprove such relevance. I am sorry that you view this discussion as an agrument rather than a fact finding expedition.
Speaking of facts, I've become increasingly curious about the discrepancy I've observed between theoretical, green aspect capacity and pokey rush hour performance. The trains I take during rush hour seem to crawl and sit about for long unexplained periods. Door holding somewhere along the line? Excessive loading time?
Yes, this discrepency is curious and should make any serious observer take a long hard look at current operations. I have been taking such observations. My data is still preliminary and I do not wish to give a definitive answer on incomplete data.
My studies have thus far eliminated passenger behavior as a serious cause. I have deliberately taken data on two very light travel days: Good Friday and the Friday before the Memorial Day Weekend. Rush hour service was every bit as erratic on these days as it was during normal rush hours. I have observed, measured and quantified door holding incidents. They are not sufficient to cause the performance discrepency, whether taken individually or in total.
Loading times do not appear to be a problem either. Their average is well within the limit required for 30 tph. (So is their average +/- a couple of standard deviations - for any reader contemplating a statistical argument).
I really would be interested in exploring any hypothesis. I certainly have my suspicions which I'll release when I have conclusive data. But I'm open to suggestions to explore.
One interesting footnote. A train was held by the dispatcher for over 3 minutes at a station that I was observing. For the next 15 minutes thereafter, the trains ran at their 1954 service levels of 32 tph. No key-bys because I was also timing the signal aspect. Tantalizing, what?
Everyone knows the TA is short trains. I was at a meeting with MTA officials on demographic projections, back in the early 1990s after Cuomo cancelled the regular car buying idea and set us off on a 12 year no new car period. The MTA guy (forget his name) said he'd love to run some #4 expresses but didn't have the cars. Damn politicians, he said.
Then again, the primary goals of the MTA have been to suck up as little taxpayer funding as possible (Republican) and hold down the fare while giving generous pensions to retired workers (Democrat). The idea, therefore, is to have as little operating expense as possible. To an MTA offical faced with this demand, the thought of an "off the books" capital solution like the Second Avenue, which would allow them to provide the service they really want to provide while satisfying the politicians who can fire them, must seem really good.
Question: why would it take more cars to run expresses on a three track line?
Same thing holds true but more so for the 1/9. It seems to me that if they reversed half the trains at 137th St. as they used to and restored third track express service, they could eliminate overcrowding, get rid of skip-stop service, and reduce average travel time for people from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, all without increasing staff or using more cars. They might even free some up for the Lex.
Question: why would it take more cars to run expresses on a three track line?
Same thing holds true but more so for the 1/9. It seems to me that if they reversed half the trains at 137th St. as they used to and restored third track express service, they could eliminate overcrowding, get rid of skip-stop service, and reduce average travel time for people from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan, all without increasing staffing levels or using more cars. They might even be able to send some trains over to the Lex.
Actually, local service south of 96th St is about the same as it was 50 years ago, with one important difference. Back then they ran 28 tph with 5 car trains for 140 cars per hour. Today they are running 15 tph with 10 car trains for 150 cars per hour. Of course, one has to wait an average of 2 more minutes to catch a train. Of course, they did not add station entrances to disperse the passengers over the full length of the platforms.
Service was not doubt better when they went to 10 car trains in the late 1950's and still maintained the 28 tph.
Service north of 96th is another matter. They used to run 15 10-car expresses and 14 5-car locals between 96th and 137th. So, people boarding at these stations have experienced a real service reduction from 220 cars per hour to 150 cars per hour. Ditto for commuting students trying to reach Columbia or CCNY. The number cars and frequency of trains is about the same north of 137th. However, 50 years ago, these patrons enjoyed express service south of 96th.
It does not necessarily follow that patronage patterns follow infrastructure. (Nor does it follow that NYCT service patterns follow patronage patterns, as I have discovered). How many people board at the various stations? Ideally how best to serve these patrons should be the criteria for setting service patterns and schedules - not available infrastructure.
[Actually, local service south of 96th St is about the same as it was 50 years ago, with one important difference. Back then they ran 28 tph with 5 car trains for 140 cars per hour. Today they are running 15 tph with 10 car trains for 150 cars per hour. Of course, one has to wait an average of 2 more minutes to catch a train. Of course, they did not add station entrances to disperse the passengers over the full length of the platforms.
Service was not doubt better when they went to 10 car trains in the late 1950's and still maintained the 28 tph.]
I'm too young to remember service details in the 50's, but I took the line every day in the 60's and 70's, and before they eliminated the 137th Street turnabout the #1 ran eight rather than 10 car trains.
[Service north of 96th is another matter. They used to run 15 10-car expresses and 14 5-car locals between 96th and 137th. So, people boarding at these stations have experienced a real service reduction from 220 cars per hour to 150 cars per hour. Ditto for commuting students trying to reach Columbia or CCNY. The number cars and frequency of trains is about the same north of 137th. However, 50 years ago, these patrons enjoyed express service south of 96th.
It does not necessarily follow that patronage patterns follow infrastructure. (Nor does it follow that NYCT service patterns follow patronage patterns, as I have discovered). How many people board at the various stations? Ideally how best to serve these patrons should be the criteria for setting service patterns and schedules - not available infrastructure.]
Unfortunately, I don't have good figures. Experience tells me that the trains are lightly loaded above 137th Street, are beginning to get crowded by the time they reach 116th, are jam packed by the time they get to Midtown, and then empty out some as they proceed downtown, which is why I think it would be a good idea to restore the 137th Street terminus for every other train. And third track express service would almost certainly be an improvement over skip stop service, though the lack of a third platform at the 116th Street station presents a real problem--expresses would have to switch to and from the local track, negating much of the time gain. But I can't speculate on what actual service levels should be without better data.
Incidentally, I remember reading once a contemporary account of commuting to 242nd Street in an old issue of my high school paper. Apparently there was at one time a scheduled express from 96th Street that went against the prevailing flow of rush hour traffic. Not sure how they pulled that off with only 3 tracks and 15 tph--but the kid said it was jammed.
It would be possible to run two-way express service on a three-track line with creative switching. If the next local train is nearly at the next express stop, an express train can use the local track with no delay. Trains would use the express track only if they'd encounter delay on the local track. If that led to a conflict, either one of the express trains would use the local track and get stuck behind a local train or both express trains would use the express track, one after the other. (The best option would vary.)
How efficient this would be is an interesting problem that I haven't worked out. But if this hasn't been considered yet, the TA should seriously consider it.
In a sense this boils down to using the express track as a passing lane of sorts. The train going in the rush hour direction could be given priority where there's a conflict. Assuming there was a significant time saving, it would be well suited to an automated system.
Everyone knows the TA is short trains.
How many cars are they short?
How has the field shunt "solution" increased the need for trains? How much have the link bars reduced the number of available trains?
If these "wise" TA managers knew their problem was a car shortage a decade ago, why did they sabotage operations with these policies?
Damn politicians, he said.
If it isn't the passengers it is always sombody else they are trying to scapegoat.
Now maybe, just maybe, these political hacks you so dislike know a con job, when they see one. (They are experienced in that sort of thing.) Maybe, just maybe, these political hacks know incompetence, when they see it - again experience.
How long did it take the TA to get the MDBF figures of the new and refurbished cars up to that of the old ones? And they should have bought more of these clunkers before getting them to work at least as well as what they were replacing?
What do you think the politicians attitude might have been had the the post 1970 cars worked, when they were purchased?
What were the TA's long term solution for the Lex? A new signal system, eliminating the Union Square moving platforms and ... No additional cars in their prescription. So when did you start or stop believing the TA's pronouncements.
All of this is interesting, but it ignores one simple point: The Lexington Ave. line, even running at maximum capacity, is not sufficient to meet the transit needs of the East Side. Even in the 1960's, when the TA had yard-loads of cars and the ability to run them closer together, the line was still way overcrowded.
The only real solution is to build another line (2nd Ave.), at least above 60th St (stubway, anyone?).
All of this is interesting, but it ignores one simple point: The Lexington Ave. line, even running at maximum capacity, is not sufficient to meet the transit needs of the East Side.
The numbers do not support this thesis. Current service levels are 25 tph. The 1954 service levels were 32 tph. Assume 30 tph. That is a 25% increase.
If the service levels were 125% of current levels then the load factors be 80% of current values (1/1.25). The maximum load factor is 1.16 (Lex Express between 86th and 59th). This value would become 0.93 or 25 fewer people per car and 250 fewer people per train. These are not imperceptible differences.
Even in the 1960's, when the TA had yard-loads of cars and the ability to run them closer together, the line was still way overcrowded.
As strange as it may seem, significantly fewer people ride the Lex today than did in the 1960's. Using a 1960 baseline: ridership is approximately 86% of the 1960 total and service levels provided by the TA are 78% of the 1960 levels. The combined effect is to make the Lex service 10% more crowded (0.86/0.78) than it was in the 1960's.
The only real solution is to build another line (2nd Ave.), at least above 60th St (stubway, anyone?).
Even though the data suggest otherwise, this should not be used as an excuse for not amerliorating the conditions or should it?
What did Samuel Beckett write? "What are we waiting for? We are waiting for Godot"
More service isn't the answer, as the station platforms are already overcrowded. More trains merely add to the delays. A new line is needed.
Let's put this thread under the right name. Steve Bauman argues that operational improvements could (or should) solve the Lex problem, and thus the Second Avenue would not be needed were it not for TA incompetence.
I agree that more could be done in the short run, with better signals and more cars. And I do wonder why the spare rate has to be so high. Maybe that's whey the MTA did not want to build a full length Second Avenue subway.
But you have to consider three things:
1) The closer you get to capacity, the greater the likelihood that any little problem will cause spiraling delays. The TA is right to want a cushion.
2) Dwell time -- the speed of a line is no faster than its slowest link. If dwell times at GCT cut throughput, it doesn't matter if they are short elsewhere.
3) Supressed demand. Steve says that since the TA could increase capacity by 25 percent, and the Lex is at 125 percent of capacity, opeational improvmeents could solve the problem. But what that doesn't include is all the people now riding slow moving buses or paying for taxis because the Lex is so crowded. Add the Second Avenue, and you put some of those people on trains, improving their quality of life.
The Lex carried more people 30 years ago, SB says. I don't doubt it. But the city was poorer years ago, and people were used to a lower quality of life. That's like saying the subways didn't have air conditioning 30 years ago, so we don't need it now. Or that the LIRR doesn't need east side access because the people could ride as standees into Penn and then take the subway. Perhaps people are shifting to other modes because they are unwilling to accept the quality of ride the Lex provides. This is about quality, not quantity.
Then there is growth to consider. All along the Lex and its feeders, you have housing units that had been occupied by welfare recipients that increasingly house subway-riding workers. Plus, you have new buildings.
Offsetting this, I believe the internet may increase the number of people who travel to the office off peak, or who don't come in every day. That's why I think the system as a whole has plenty of capacity. But most of it is west of 5th Avenue.
I agree wholeheartedly that we need a higher service standard than what we already have. Still, I don't think the capacity argument is valid for the Second Avenue subway, if for not other reason than the fact that capacity can be arbitrarily increased by extending the length of the platforms at lower cost than building a new line. That being said, we still need the Second Avenue subway desperately if for no other reason than that the Lexington Avenue is out of the reach of much of the East Side. It makes much more sense to spend whatever money may be needed to increase the capacity of the Lex--by buying new cars, extending stations, putting in new signals or what have you--to a line that serves a terribly underserved area.
Unfortunately, current plans for the Second Avenue subway, which envisage a two track line that neither serves the Bronx nor Grand Central Station, won't alleviate crowding on the Lex much at all! They'll syphon off some people from the eastern edge of the Upper East Side and Spanish Harlem, but that's a drop in the bucket. We'd be spending a lot of money and throwing away one of the major benefits of building the new line.
1) The closer you get to capacity, the greater the likelihood that any little problem will cause spiraling delays. The TA is right to want a cushion.
2) Dwell time -- the speed of a line is no faster than its slowest link. If dwell times at GCT cut throughput, it doesn't matter if they are short elsewhere.
The a maximum capacity of most lines is usually limited by its terminals. The mainline capacity - determined by acceleration, braking, dwell time (30 sec), safety cushion and reaction time is between 42 to 45 tph for most systems, including the NYCT. The points you raised prevent this level to be reached most of the time.
However, the reduced 30 tph operation adds an additional 30 second cushion. This means that a single choke point dwell time of 60 seconds could be tolerated without delaying trailing trains. This amounts to 2.79 standard deviations above the mean value that I observed at Grand Central. So, one could resonably expect one such incident once every 2 1/2 weeks that would cause a single trailing train delay of a couple of seconds.
3) Supressed demand...But what that doesn't include is all the people now riding slow moving buses or paying for taxis because the
Lex is so crowded.
I've never claimed that a Lex line running at service capacity would be sufficient to accomodate the entire Upper East Side should it decide to enter en masse. However, your underlying assumptions may be wrong. The only residential stations to show increased patronage since 1960 are 96th through 68th. It may well be that the good residents north of 96th have opted for the slow buses and the trend setters are already taking the train.
A a real capacity problem would resuult regardless of the new riders' pedigree. The next question would be how best to serve this new, additional, hypothetical demand. There is certainly additional room between the maximum capacity of 45 tph and the service capacity of 30 tph - about 30% to 50% more. Utilizing this additional capacity will require changes other than simply supplying a sufficient number of trains to the existing system. However, the cost and lead time should be significantly less than a new subway.
So, the threshold for new trackage is really 45 tph or roughly 80% above present patronage at the same comfort level. Do you have any idea where you are going to find these people?
[The a maximum capacity of most lines is usually limited by its terminals. The mainline capacity - determined by acceleration, braking, dwell time (30 sec), safety cushion and reaction time is between 42 to 45 tph for most systems, including the NYCT. The points you raised prevent this level to be reached most of the time.
However, the reduced 30 tph operation adds an additional 30 second cushion. This means that a single choke point dwell time of 60 seconds could be tolerated without delaying trailing trains. This amounts to 2.79 standard deviations above the mean value that I observed at Grand Central. So, one could resonably expect one such incident once every 2 1/2 weeks that would cause a single trailing train delay of a couple of seconds.]
A couple of thoughts--
-Grand Central may not be the best station to measure dwell time, because the gap fillers at 14th Street slow down operations there. The TA insists it's a bottleneck & is supposedly planning to eliminate them.
-Longer delays of the sort caused by a sick passenger or a sticky door may not adhere to a Gaussian distribution. Then too, once a delay reaches a certain point, it increases nonlinearly because of crowding.
Look, anything to increase capacity on the Lex is worth it even if the Second Avenue is built, because of the areas they serve. Are terminals the real problem? It would seem relatively easy and cheap to add trackage just at the terminal, as in teh 1960s Second Avenue proposal -- (two track line, four track terminal).
Nonetheless, I still say demand is suppressed. Ridership rose south of 96th Street because thousands of housing units were built there -- with the Second Avenue, it would have been reversed. Ridership fell north of 96th St. because everyone ended up on welfare, a trend that has been reversed.
I see lots of door holding incidents slowing down the Lex. just in Brooklyn. The trains are always held up for 30+ seconds at Nevins by people changing across the platform. Fulton St is worse, because everyone is trying to run and struggle in at one end of the train (the usually have a TA worker there with a megaphone).
I see lots of door holding incidents slowing down the Lex. just in Brooklyn. The trains are always held up for 30+ seconds at Nevins by people changing across the platform. Fulton St is worse, because everyone is trying to run and struggle in at one end of the train (they usually have a TA worker there with a megaphone).
Sorry, my studies thus far have been confined to the downtown AM rush hour on the Lex. I will extend the scope, if these initial studies prove interesting. The nortbound Lex service does not affect downtown patterns to any significant extent. If it did, then a study of these stations would be in order at this juncture.
The screenline totals would suggest that there is more action going downtown than coming uptown during the AM rush hour.
I've seen some fairly frightening predictions for job growth along the eastern transit corridor. If they prove true, we'll need a line on every avenue.
(I've seen some fairly frightening predictions for job growth along the eastern transit corridor. If they prove true, we'll need a line
on every avenue. )
I've always argued that those predictions were inflated. Federal transportation policy requires the use of a growth/capacity model to justify investments. Since the city is already developed, I argue for investments based on quality of life considerations and existing passenger flows.
[I've always argued that those predictions were inflated. Federal transportation policy requires the use of a growth/capacity model to justify investments. Since the city is already developed, I argue for investments based on quality of life considerations and existing passenger flows.]
I wouldn't be surprised. At the very least they're unpredictable--who could have predicted the changes in the City's population patterns over the years?
-Grand Central may not be the best station to measure dwell time, because the gap fillers at 14th Street slow down operations there. The TA insists it's a bottleneck & is supposedly planning to eliminate them.
My studies are still preliminary. I've not yet visited Union Square with my stop watch. My initial studies do not suggest the presence of a choke point south of Grand Central.
Before accepting TA statements consider the following: The gap fillers were in place in 1954. It did not prevent them from running 32 tph back then.
-Longer delays of the sort caused by a sick passenger or a sticky door may not adhere to a Gaussian distribution.
Nor do equipment failures. I've been assuming that both of these "monkey wrenches" are beyond the scope of my study. Do you have any data regarding the frequency and geographic distribution of sick passengers? I'd be happy to include them in my study. BTW, are you implying that NYCT passengers were healthier, when they ran 32 tph?
Then too, once a delay reaches a certain point, it increases nonlinearly because of crowding.
Actually I've always assumed that loading time is a concave increasing function of the number of passengers passing through the door threshold. Concave increasing functions are described as follows:
if t(n) is the time required to load n passengers, then
(dt(N2))/(dn) > (dt(N1))/(dn)
where dt(N)/dn is the slope or first derivative at the value N
and N2 > N1
The good part of such an assumption is that suggests a strategy for scheduling trains that minimizes total loading time. My studies thus far inicate no attempt by NYCT to implement such a strategy.
[My studies are still preliminary. I've not yet visited Union Square with my stop watch. My initial studies do not suggest the presence of a choke point south of Grand Central.
Before accepting TA statements consider the following: The gap fillers were in place in 1954. It did not prevent them from running 32 tph back then.]
Don't get me wrong--I'm not accepting the TA's statement; I've seen the old service frequency map. But I think it makes sense to check their allegation, particularly since they're about to spend money to eliminate the gap fillers. And 14th might prove a better data point than 42nd.
[Nor do equipment failures. I've been assuming that both of these "monkey wrenches" are beyond the scope of my study. Do you have any data regarding the frequency and geographic distribution of sick passengers? I'd be happy to include them in my study. BTW, are you implying that NYCT passengers were healthier, when they ran 32 tph?]
Nothing, unfortunately--just off-the-cuff observation. Too bad I don't take the Lex much anymore, because I'd be glad to gather statistics. Maybe somebody else is in a better position too.
As to passengers being healthier--I've actually asked myself that question. How many "sick passengers" are junkies, drunks, and such? That may have pushed up the incidence of such delays. So may different operating procedures, such as the requirement that conductors stay with the passenger until help arrives.
[Actually I've always assumed that loading time is a concave increasing function of the number of passengers passing through the door threshold. Concave increasing functions are described as follows:
if t(n) is the time required to load n passengers, then
(dt(N2))/(dn) > (dt(N1))/(dn)
where dt(N)/dn is the slope or first derivative at the value N
and N2 > N1
The good part of such an assumption is that suggests a strategy for scheduling trains that minimizes total loading time. My studies thus far inicate no attempt by NYCT to implement such a strategy.]
That corresponds very well with my own intuition.
More service isn't the answer, as the station platforms are already overcrowded. More trains merely add to the delays. A new line is needed.
I've learned never to question one's deep held religious beliefs.
Could you find it in your heart to tolerate non-believers like myself who wish to improve one's present lot rather than waiting for the hereafter?
Steve;
Your analysis is mathmatically correct, but if there were more service there would be more riders. Once the line is running over capacity potential riders are finding alternatives to avoid the line.
[All of this is interesting, but it ignores one simple point: The Lexington Ave. line, even running at maximum capacity, is not sufficient to meet the transit needs of the East Side. Even in the 1960's, when the TA had yard-loads of cars and the ability to run them closer together, the line was still way overcrowded.
The only real solution is to build another line (2nd Ave.), at least above 60th St (stubway, anyone?).]
I think there are lots of solutions. Restore service on the Lex to historical levels. Lengthen platforms. Offer Bronx superexpress service via the Park Avenue tunnels and the BMT. Etc.
But as much as I favor it, the Second Avenue line isn't really one of these. Traffic studies indicate that the Stubway would do little to relieve crowding on the Lex. A full length two track line that doesn't go the Bronx or GCT won't be much better than the stubway. A real four track line with service in the Bronx and a spur to GCT *would* make a difference--but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
The stubway would certainly ease the crowding on the Lexington Ave. line. Any idiot can see that. It's a half-assed solution, but no full length Second Ave. line will be built in my lifetime, so it's better than nothing.
[The stubway would certainly ease the crowding on the Lexington Ave. line. Any idiot can see that.]
Powerful argument, there, brother.
Instead of hurling insults, you might try looking at some of the studies. Start at the RPA's page; surely you can find it, if you try rilly, rilly hard.
If I've learned anyting about transit politics from this group, it's that the problem is *everybody.* The MTA. The politicians. The unions. The NIMBY's. Even the FRA. It doesn't matter what you propose, somebody has a reason why it can never be done.
That being said, the politicians are ultimately in charge. I can't believe that Pataki couldn't increase service levels or build the Second Avenue Subway if he really wanted to.
This is fascinating. Larry's explanation strikes me as fairly convincing for the service levels, but if loading delays aren't sufficient to slow the lines what is causing the ragged, slow service? I've heard T/O's complain here that the schedules are unrealistic. Is the TA intentionally slowing trains to inflate on-time statistics?
(Is the TA intentionally slowing trains to inflate on-time statistics?)
You mean like the airlines? I guess that's what conservatives mean when they talk about running the government like a business.
Or the LIRR . . .
Is the TA intentionally slowing trains to inflate on-time statistics?
How can one tell, since they stopped publishing their schedules?
This is fascinating. Larry's explanation strikes me as fairly convincing for the service levels, but if loading delays aren't sufficient to slow the lines what is causing the ragged, slow service? I've heard T/O's complain here that the schedules are unrealistic. Is the TA intentionally slowing trains to inflate on-time statistics?
West Side riders, if they don't want to ride overcrowded #2 trains, can opt to wait for the #3 line, which doesn't go to the Bronx and is relatively uncrowded at 72nd. St. Or they can walk to CPW and use the B and C lines. West Side riders need to shut their @#$%& mouths and thank god that their side of the park is serviced by 2 seperate trunk lines.
[West Side riders, if they don't want to ride overcrowded #2 trains, can opt to wait for the #3 line, which doesn't go to the Bronx and is relatively uncrowded at 72nd. St. Or they can walk to CPW and use the B and C lines. West Side riders need to shut their @#$%& mouths and thank god that their side of the park is serviced by 2 seperate trunk lines.]
That's a joke. It would take less time to take the local than to wait for two expresses, and you'd still have to stand during rush hour. The 72nd Street station would still be dangerously overcrowded, only more so. And as to walking across the entire West Side for another train, well, that's another joke. Talk about a customer-be-damned attitude!
The Seventh Avenue is one of the City's most overcrowded lines, and it damn well ought to be fixed along with the Lex, the E/F, and the rest of them.
Crowding on the West Side IRT, while heavy, is no where near that of the East Side IRT. And the IND CPW local runs under 100% capacity, so if you really can't deal with the crowds at 72nd. St, take a walk to the B or C train.
I'm really getting sick of whining NIMBY's who won't stand even the slightest inconvienence, or those who think they have it worse than anyone else and that they deserve to have their problems addressed before any others.
[Crowding on the West Side IRT, while heavy, is no where near that of the East Side IRT. And the IND CPW local runs under 100% capacity, so if you really can't deal with the crowds at 72nd. St, take a walk to the B or C train.
I'm really getting sick of whining NIMBY's who won't stand even the slightest inconvienence, or those who think they have it worse than anyone else and that they deserve to have their problems addressed before any others.]
Since I specifically stated that crowding on the Lex is worse than crowding on the seventh Avenue, I'm not sure why you've raised this point.
As to walking to the IND, I reiterate that that's patently ridiculous. Between the walk from the heavily populated corridor which is between Broadway and Riverside, the fact that there's no express service, and the fact that the 8th Avenue doesn't allow an easy transfer to get to the East Side business district, that could easily add 1/2 hour to the average commute.
People will generally take the fastest route. It's the MTA's job to give them good service, and that isn't being done. As long as people are packed into trains like sardines and forced to put up with dangerous stations like those at 72nd and 14th, they have every right to "whine."
Well, a ride on the C train would take about 5 extra minutes to get to Chambers St/WTC over the 2/3 express, both from 72nd. St. No express service on CPW? Boo-hoo. East Side riders would gladly take an alternative "local" line.
The 8th Ave line paralells the West Side IRT along it's entire length.
72nd. Street is dangerous because of the narrow island platforms, and it should be expanded. However, as it stands now, there are enough trains run on this line to accomodate all passangers. Only Queens Blvd. express riders have the right to compare their overcrowding with the East Side's IRT line.
Only Queens Blvd. express riders have the right to compare their overcrowding with the East Side's IRT line.
From NYCDOT's own figures the load factor for the #7 is 108%; the N 112%; the E 122% and the F 133%. The only portion of the East Side IRT line to exceed these figures is the express run between 86th and 59th Streets.
Looks like the East Siders have it easy.
LOL. These stats seem to have been collected by those who never venture anywhere near the East Side IRT. Collectively, it the most overcrowded subway line in the city, bar none. Any stats showing otherwise need to be looked at with a skeptic's eye.
These stats seem to have been collected by those who never venture anywhere near the East Side IRT....Any stats showing otherwise need to be looked at with a skeptic's eye.
Are you implying that the MTA's own statistics NEED to be examined for accuracy?
You've never heard the saying....
"There's lies, damn lies, and statistics"
Peace,
ANDEE
Surely, the MTA wouldn't cook the books and show lower load factors for the Lex in order to justify not building the Second Avenue line? I mean, seeing how eager and enthusiastic the MTA officials have been about funding the Second Ave. line, there's just no way they would possibly try to help there case by showing the 4 5 and 6 running below 100 percent capacity, right?
I don't think it's the MTA that wants/doesn't want to build the Second Avenue--it's Pataki and his appointees. P's votes don't come from the City, and he's not always the sort to do what's right rather than what's political.
Remember when Nelson Rockefeller vetoed anti-abortion legislation every year, even though at the time it was a highly unpopular thing to do? Today a politician who voted his consience would be skewered.
(Remember when Nelson Rockefeller vetoed anti-abortion legislation every year, even though at the time it was a highly unpopular thing to do? Today a politician who voted his consience would be skewered.)
Rocky was rich. I read an article a while back that basically said that Pataki runs his personal finances the way he runs New York States finances. He's mortgaged to the hilt, and if he doesn't get enough outside income he's going under.
[Rocky was rich. I read an article a while back that basically said that Pataki runs his personal finances the way he runs New York States finances. He's mortgaged to the hilt, and if he doesn't get enough outside income he's going under.]
It seems to me that some of our best politicians have been old money sorts. They don't need to sell out to campaign contributors or anyone else . . .
It seems to me that some of our best politicians have been old money sorts. They don't need to sell out to campaign contributors or anyone else . . .
One of Rockefeller's first actions was to allow NYC banks (e.g. Chase-Manhattan) to expand beyond the city limits. He did not need to sell out to campaign contributers - he had his own special interests.
Was there something wrong with letting NYC banks expand into the boonies?
usually, the wealthy who run for office are their own special interests ...
Well, the new money types, yes--they tend to be the greediest of the greedy--but the old money types tend to be unusually honest and socially conscious. They have plenty of money, always have, and really don't care about getting more. (There are exceptions, of course.)
Yeah, I'm sure Steve Forbes ran for president just to save Social Security. Let's be serious. People with oodles of money run for office for one reason: to further their political interests.
There is absolutely no evidence of that.
I don't think it's the MTA that wants/doesn't want to build the Second Avenue--it's Pataki and his appointees. P's votes don't come from the City, and he's not always the sort to do what's right rather than what's political.
Remember when Nelson Rockefeller vetoed anti-abortion legislation every year, even though at the time it was a highly unpopular thing to do? Today a politician who voted his conscience would be skewered.
Pataki appoints the members of the MTA board. They want what he wants.
Guess what's the city's most overcrowded line? The Lexington Ave IRT. If anything, the 2/5 swap will bring more people to the East side, therefore increasing the number of people on the East side to unbearable numbers. And you don't have to walk over the entire West side, like it's even that big. Broadway at 72nd Street is only 3 avenues away from CPW where you can get to the B/C. If you don't want to walk, you can take the M72 and get your free transfer. Be happy you have 2 lines that run down the West Side.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Why do you say "you"? I don't live there. But I used to, and no one in his right mind would walk three to five long blocks to get the pokey B/C when they can take the 1, 2, and 3.
You being the replacement for one.
This is the second time that you has caused confusion, why does nobody use the pronoun one?
Then they can't blame the MTA for screwing them because they don't want to choose the available alternative. If people don't want to ride the crowded 1-2-3-9 lines, then they can use the "pokey" B or C. But it's their choice.
[Then they can't blame the MTA for screwing them because they don't want to choose the available alternative. If people don't want to ride the crowded 1-2-3-9 lines, then they can use the "pokey" B or C. But it's their choice.]
You keep saying that. But I lived there for more than 20 years, and believe me, it isn't a choice. Most of the population density on the West Side is between Broadway and Riverside Drive, with a sliver on Central Park West that already uses the 8th Avenue line. The 8th Avenue just isn't in the right place, unless people want to add an hour to their daily commute (10 minutes additional travel time, 40 minutes walking or on the bus). Assuming you can even get there--people at 116th would have to scale Morningside Heights, and anyone above the 80's would have to travel through a slum.
The 'pokey' B or C? What's the next stop southbound after 72nd St on the CPW line?
Did I hear someone say 59th St? Isn't that the same station the 1 train stops at? Did I hear 59th St? After making an additional stop at 66th St? It IS? WOW! What's the next stop after that on the B? 7th Av/53rd St? Next stop is 47/50th and 6th Ave, next is 42nd St. From there, you can walk to Madison, 5th, 7th, and B'way. The shuttle ends at Vanderbilt Ave. There's an exit from the shuttle at 42nd and Madison, an exit from the 6th Ave at 42nd and 5th.
Shut your mouth, leave 5 minutes earlier, walk a little farther, get a seat, and fear not being accidently pushed to the tracks at overcrowded 72nd and B'way.
It's time someone stood upa and said "A 2-block walk is NOTHING! Shut up, and quit complaining!"
-Hank
[The 'pokey' B or C? What's the next stop southbound after 72nd St on the CPW line?
Did I hear someone say 59th St? Isn't that the same station the 1 train stops at? Did I hear 59th St? After making an additional stop at 66th St? It IS? WOW! What's the next stop after that on the B? 7th Av/53rd St? Next stop is 47/50th and 6th Ave, next is 42nd St. From there, you can walk to Madison, 5th, 7th, and B'way. The shuttle ends at Vanderbilt Ave. There's an exit from the shuttle at 42nd and Madison, an exit from the 6th Ave at 42nd and 5th.
Shut your mouth, leave 5 minutes earlier, walk a little farther, get a seat, and fear not being accidently pushed to the tracks at overcrowded 72nd and B'way.
It's time someone stood upa and said "A 2-block walk is NOTHING! Shut up, and quit complaining!"
-Hank]
-I've stated repeatedly that I *don't live there*--I live in Greenwich Village, where the subway service is fabulous. How hard is that for people to grasp?
-It's not a 2 block walk, and even if it were, have you ever seen the length of those blocks? Most people on the Upper West Side live between Broadway and Riverside Drive, and it's something like 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile in addition to whatever they would have to walk north-south. That to get a pokey 1/2 service (C) line which even with transfers to the A and C doesn't take you below the World Trade Center, or the even pokier 1/3 service (B) local line which, given that about half of the Midtwon business district is east of Lexington Avenue, has a fairly small chance of taking you where you want to go.
-Nobody does it, nobody will do it, and I for one don't blame them. Talk about customer be damned, let them eat cake attitudes! Who the hell wants to add an hour to their daily commute? We should be fighting for decent service, not telling customers they should be grateful for a line that's useless to most of them.
"I've stated repeatedly that I *don't live there*--I live in Greenwich Village, where the subway service is fabulous. How hard is that for people to grasp?"
I've stated repeatedly that people should start using the pronoun "one."
[I've stated repeatedly that people should start using the pronoun "one."]
A good idea!
Seems like part of the problem, as on the QB line, is people who insist on riding the express. Would it make sense to eliminate express serving at 72nd/86th Streets to shift load to the 1/9 and 6? After all, if you already live in Manhattan, even if you are going all the way downtown the ride is not that long.
How about building nice wide side platforms at 72nd Street? Rebuild 96th Street to permit locals and expresses off both northern branches, as orignially planned?
[Seems like part of the problem, as on the QB line, is people who insist on riding the express. Would it make sense to eliminate express serving at 72nd/86th Streets to shift load to the 1/9 and 6? After all, if you already live in Manhattan, even if you are going all the way downtown the ride is not that long.
How about building nice wide side platforms at 72nd Street? Rebuild 96th Street to permit locals and expresses off both northern branches, as orignially planned?]
I think you're right about eliminating the 72nd Street stop. It seems to me that it would make sense to have the express stop at 59th instead. That would discourage people from using the express too heavily without inconviencing the people who have to go all the way downtown, as well as putting it at the transfer point for the IND, and if you added a one block passage with a moving sidewalk you could connect the station to the 59th Street crosstown, a real convenience for people commuting to the East Side business district. Someone said once that the Columbus Circle station was built with an express stop in mind--it was just never implemented.
Meanwhile, people have been trying to get the MTA to build wide platforms at 72nd Street ever since Trump announced his development plans, but they didn't get enough money from Trump and the MTA won't allocate it.
I'm not sure about swapping expresses--isn't that the way the IRT originally worked? I think I read somewhere that it caused a lot of confusion. It's hard to get people to change trains at 96th Street as it is . . . OTOH, they could resurrect the 3rd track express on the 242nd Street branch--it wouldn't solve overcrowding but it sure would be nice for people from Upper Manhattan and the Bronx. Someone from the MTA was quoted as saying it would be nice to do, but they'd need an extra platform at 116th Street because it's such a busy station. (So build the plaform, he says into the void . . . )
"59th Street crosstown"? The 59th Street crosstown what? There is no 59th Street crosstown within one block of Columbus Circle. Do you mean the BMT station that's 2-1/2 blocks away? That's roughly the same as 10 blocks in an uptown/downtown direction.
The BMT 57th Street station is one long block east of the south end of the IND/IRT Columbus Circle station. It's the same walk that thousands of New Yorkers use each day on 42nd Street between Times Square and 8th Avenue. (Or put in a moving walkway and make everyone's lives even easier.)
OK. I was thinking of the station at CPS between 5th and 6th. Of course, the people mover should run from at least 58th Street, where the south ends of the platforms are located.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. Seems to me a passage and a people mover would make a lot of sense there.
Absolutely -- that's one of the system's near misses that could be much more useful. A connection with people mover might reduce some of the crowding on the area crosstown buses.
Nope, not the problem at all. Have you ever seen the 1/9 at rush hour? It's packed to the gills.
During the summer of 1993 I had to deal with rush hour 1/2/3/9 service every afternoon. I'd take whichever train came first at 42nd, usually an express. Then I'd get off at 72nd and wait (in one of the hottest stations in the system) for a 1/9. And wait. And wait. Typically 3-4 expresses would roll through before a local would arrive. Then, the local, having lost time due to overcrowding, would invariably run express to 96th -- it got to the point where, if there was a long wait for the local, I wouldn't even try to get on the first train since I knew it wouldn't stop at 86th. Naturally, the "local" would dump many of its passengers onto the already packed platform -- anyone who actually wanted an express was on one of the last four trains to pass through the station.
But somehow NYCT never got the clue (well, perhaps they have, since 1993 -- I haven't ridden it much since then).
FWIW, there appears to be capacity on the local tracks for twice the service that existed in 1993. That would significantly relieve the crowding. Why aren't more trains run?
[FWIW, there appears to be capacity on the local tracks for twice the service that existed in 1993. That would significantly relieve the crowding. Why aren't more trains run?]
You could ask that about just any overcrowded line on the system . . .
Not really. The 2/3, during rush hours, comes every few minutes. It's crowded, but there's no simple way to fix that. The 1/9 comes far less often, and NYCT consistently scratches its head wondering why the locals are so crowded, and in response sends them express. (According to the schedule, there is supposed to be approximately one local for every two expresses during the afternoon rush hour. While on average that may be the case, the locals tend to bunch.)
The solution on most overcrowded lines isn't so simple as running a few more trains. It is on the 1/9.
[Not really. The 2/3, during rush hours, comes every few minutes. It's crowded, but there's no simple way to fix that. The 1/9 comes far less often, and NYCT consistently scratches its head wondering why the locals are so crowded, and in response sends them express. (According to the schedule, there is supposed to be approximately one local for every two expresses during the afternoon rush hour. While on average that may be the case, the locals tend to bunch.)
The solution on most overcrowded lines isn't so simple as running a few more trains. It is on the 1/9.]
Have you kept up with Stephen Baumann's posts? A look at a service map from 50 years ago is a real eye opener--*none* of the City's subway lines are running at capacity--not the 2/3, not the 7, not the Lex. They don't run at theoretical capacity and they don't run at the service levels of 50 years ago. That, it seems, is because of transit authority incompetence--unnecessary safety rules, crippled motors and brakes, a shortage of rolling stock, and so on. So any official "explanation" of overcrowding begins with a large component of rot.
As to the shortage of trains on the 1/9, the obvious answer is to resurrect the turnaround at 137th Street during rush hours. When I was a kid, half the trains reversed there, providing higher density service in the heavily travelled areas. This would allow a major increase in service frequency without adding any rolling stock or personnnel, at the cost of slightly less frequent service for passengers in Upper Manhattan. But you could drop skip stop service, which would exactly make up for the shortfall. OK, so that would make the ride longer? Resurrect the third track express!
Unless I'm missing something, we've maintained frequency of service at express stops above 137th Street, halved the frequency of rush hour service at local stops stops above 137th Street in the direction of express travel but significantly reduced average travel time, and eliminated overcrowding by increasing the frequency of local service below 137th Street--all without adding staff or cars . . .
[I've stated repeatedly that I *don't live there*--I live in Greenwich Village, where the subway service is fabulous.]
Actually, it's not particularly good in the western edge of the Village, say along Hudson or especially Washington streets. Supposedly, some people in that area use PATH at Christopher Street to get to Midtown, simply because it's a shorter walk than it is to the IRT along Seventh.
[Actually, it's not particularly good in the western edge of the Village, say along Hudson or especially Washington streets. Supposedly, some people in that area use PATH at Christopher Street to get to Midtown, simply because it's a shorter walk than it is to the IRT along Seventh.]
True--I have to go over there occasionally. The bus is a joke, so I either walk or take PATH.
But I live in subway heaven--the 7th Avenue is one block west, the 6th Ave and 8th Avenues and PATH one block east. The only better arrangement I can think of would be living at 7th and 14th (or maybe Queens Plaza or by the Atlantic Avenue station--this could be a thread: what's the most subway-friendly place in the City?).
Downtown Brooklyn, near the interesection of Flatbush and Atlantic. Within walking distance (4 or fewer blocks):
A,C,B,D,F,G,M,N,Q,R,2,3,4,5
14 different lines!
I'd say those people are suffering. Time to extend the E and the 1!
[Actually, it's not particularly good in the western edge of the Village, say along Hudson or especially Washington streets. Supposedly, some people in that area use PATH at Christopher Street to get to Midtown, simply because it's a shorter walk than it is to the IRT along Seventh.]
True--I have to go over there occasionally. The bus is a joke, so I either walk or take PATH.
But I live in subway heaven--the 7th Avenue is one block west, the 6th Ave and 8th Avenues and PATH one block east. The only better arrangement I can think of would be living at 7th and 14th (or maybe Queens Plaza or by the Atlantic Avenue station--this could be a thread: what's the most subway-friendly location in the City?).
Times Square, I'd guess. Three trunk lines plus the shuttle downstairs; two trunk lines one block away. Express stops on all.
Or City Hall Park: all Manhattan lines except the 7, L, B/D/F/Q, and S are within a ten-minute walk, including all expresses and locals.
And the G!
I claimed, "all Manhattan lines except the 7, L, B/D/F/Q, and S are within a ten-minute walk, including all expresses and locals." Since when is the G a Manhattan line?
I stand corrected.
Well put. Most East Siders would thank God for the opportunity to walk 2 blocks to another line to avoid the Lex.
[Well put. Most East Siders would thank God for the opportunity to walk 2 blocks to another line to avoid the Lex.]
I really do feel like an echo at this point. It's not two blocks--look at a goddamn map.
I've worked the Upeer East side as a messenger when I was younger. It's not a long walk, even if it's 3 blocks.
Correction: I worked the upper WEST Side as a messenger ...
It's two blocks at 72ND.
That's what I thought. It's been 9 years since I was up there on a regular basis.
Because Broadway zigs East. It's 3 blocks (of varying lengths) above.
I just checked it on the map & my figures were right--it's from 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile from where most people live, e.g. Riverside Drive to Broadway.
[West Side riders, if they don't want to ride overcrowded #2 trains, can opt to wait for the #3 line, which doesn't go to the Bronx and is relatively uncrowded at 72nd. St. Or they can walk to CPW and use the B and C lines. West Side riders need to shut their @#$%& mouths and thank god that their side of the park is serviced by 2 seperate trunk lines.]
Or the West Siders can settle back into the leather seats of their limousines while perusing the latest editions of _The Nation_ and _Mother Jones_.
[Or the West Siders can settle back into the leather seats of their limousines while perusing the latest editions of _The Nation_ and _Mother Jones_. ]
Yeah, they're a bunch of rich liberals (every single one of them). So let them get mushed like sardines. And if one falls in the path of a train...
And the relevance of your post?
[[Or the West Siders can settle back into the leather seats of their limousines while perusing the latest editions of _The Nation_ and _Mother Jones_. ]
[Yeah, they're a bunch of rich liberals (every single one of them). So let them get mushed like sardines. And if one falls in the path of a train...
And the relevance of your post?]
Relevance? I'll take any opportunity to seize the chance to bash the Upper West Side. Wanna know what's slowly but surely going to destroy NYC? Idiotic policies rammed down everyone's throats by these utterly out-of-touch schmucks.
[Relevance? I'll take any opportunity to seize the chance to bash the Upper West Side. Wanna know what's slowly but surely going to destroy NYC? Idiotic policies rammed down everyone's throats by these utterly out-of-touch schmucks.]
Hard to see how they can ram anything--they're a very tiny percentage of the State's electorate.
[[Relevance? I'll take any opportunity to seize the chance to bash the Upper West Side. Wanna know what's slowly but surely going to destroy NYC? Idiotic policies rammed down everyone's throats by these utterly out-of-touch schmucks.]
[Hard to see how they can ram anything--they're a very tiny percentage of the State's electorate.]
Mere numbers are misleading. The UWS limo libs are extremely active politically, which combined with their wealth gives them political influence vastly out of proportion to their numbers. It also helps that the Times, the most influential newspaper in the United States and possibly the world, is firmly within their grip.
[Mere numbers are misleading. The UWS limo libs are extremely active politically, which combined with their wealth gives them political influence vastly out of proportion to their numbers. It also helps that the Times, the most influential newspaper in the United States and possibly the world, is firmly within their grip.]
Well, that's certainly true in the case of the Times. But there are other wealthy, powerful groups, in and out of the City, and I don't see them doing much good either, just trying to transfer pork to their own areas. Frankly, I'm hard pressed to figure out who does the region more harm--Republicans, Democrats, liberals or conservatives. More and more I think it has little to do with labels and everything to do with the individuals involved, e.g., Giuliani is a great mayor, Koch was a good one, Dinkins a mediocre one; Pataki is a mediocre governor, as were Cuomo and Carey before him . . .
No West Siders are FORCIBLY "mushed" like sardines. With 2 major subway lines, a West Side rider can choose an alternative route. East Side riders north of 63rd. St cannot.
[Or the West Siders can settle back into the leather seats of their limousines while perusing the latest editions of _The Nation_ and _Mother Jones_.]
If there's a West Sider with a limousine, I've never met him. Those people still live on Fifth Avenue.
Obviously you haven't been to the UWS lately. It's the home base for out of touch liberals with enough money to insulate themselves from the very problems their political ideals cause.
[Obviously you haven't been to the UWS lately. It's the home base for out of touch liberals with enough money to insulate themselves from the very problems their political ideals cause.]
If you're an Upper West Side limo lib, you have little reason to care about the problems that make life miserable for average people. You live in a doorman building, so crime isn't a great concern; you send your porch monkeys to a fancy-pants private school, so you couldn't care less about the state of the public schools; the maid does the shopping (except for your trips to Zabar's), so it doesn't bother you that the city's supermarkets are the laughingstocks of the nation; and most in point, you travel by taxi or car service (or yes, maybe limousine if you're rich enough), so the conditions on the subway and buses mean zip to you.
Pretty decent life, huh?
Yeah, and you can scream about people legally owning guns for self defense, yet you can hire armed bodyguards to escort your children around the city. Rosie O'Donnell sure knows all about that little piece of hypocricy.
[If you're an Upper West Side limo lib, you have little reason to care about the problems that make life miserable for average people. You live in a doorman building, so crime isn't a great concern; you send your porch monkeys to a fancy-pants private school, so you couldn't care less about the state of the public schools; the maid does the shopping (except for your trips to Zabar's), so it doesn't bother you that the city's supermarkets are the laughingstocks of the nation; and most in point, you travel by taxi or car service (or yes, maybe limousine if you're rich enough), so the conditions on the subway and buses mean zip to you.
Pretty decent life, huh?]
It's a very decent life. I grew up living it, and so did half of my friends (the other half lived on the East Side and some of them actually *did* have limousines).
And those upper middle class people on the West Side aren't the ones who made the City's supermarkets laughingstocks--that's corrupt, old fashioned pols on the City Council. They worry about crime like anybody else. Many of them are graduates of NYC's public schools, but they send their kids to private school at $22,000 a year because today's public schools suck; if they weren't able to afford it, they would have moved to the suburbs like the middle class. And yes, they take the subway, more often than they take cabs. And no, they don't send the maid to the supermarket, that's East Side stuff.
That would be more accurately described as Park Avenue stuff. The rest of the people (except for 5th Avenites) are just as you described.
Upper West Side -- maids? limousines?
Is this the Upper West Side of Manhattan you're thinking of? Because it's certainly not the one I grew up in.
Incidentally, if Upper West Siders take taxis and limos everywhere, who are all those people on the IRT and the M104? Ah, they must be the maids.
[Upper West Side -- maids? limousines?
Is this the Upper West Side of Manhattan you're thinking of? Because it's certainly not the one I grew up in.]
Well, not all parts of the UWS are created equal - you'll certainly find _beaucoup_ maids and limos on Central Park West and Riverside Drive.
Besides, the Upper West Side is to some extent a state of mind rather than a geographical area. A person living in other parts of Manhattan can be an Upper West Sider if he or she meets certain standards, among them the following:
1) high income (probably a minimum of 200K/year)
2) extreme liberal politically
3) no understanding of everyday life outside Manhattan
4) considers the _Times_ to be his or her guide to life
[Well, not all parts of the UWS are created equal - you'll certainly find _beaucoup_ maids and limos on Central Park West and Riverside Drive.]
More likely cleaning women. Not live in and not full time. Maid's room converted to kitchen extension or laundry. Limos no, unless you're John Lennon. An occasional nanny, now that the area has gentrified.
Park Avenue--maids, nanny, cook. Fifth Avenue--staff with chauffer.
Everyday life outside Manhattan--what do people outside Manhattan know about everyday life *in* Manhattan? As long as I can remember, the things I've heard from non-residents have been remarkably off base. They seem to pick up the sum of their knowledge from the Tonight show or, more recently, Seinfeld. They think they'll get mugged if they walk through Central Park. They have no idea that Riverside Drive isn't the same as the South Bronx. They have no idea who to avoid when they come to the City. They don't seem to understand that it's a community of distinct neighborhoods and groups. And they don't understand how much of a burden the poor are. Conversely, most Upper West Siders have friends and family in other parts of the country, or came from there themselves.
[Everyday life outside Manhattan--what do people outside Manhattan know about everyday life *in* Manhattan? As long as I can remember, the things I've heard from non-residents have been remarkably off base. They seem to pick up the sum of their knowledge from the Tonight show or, more recently, Seinfeld. They think they'll get mugged if they walk through Central Park. They have no idea that Riverside Drive isn't the same as the South Bronx. They have no idea who to avoid when they come to the City. They don't seem to understand that it's a community of distinct neighborhoods and groups. And they don't understand how much of a burden the poor are. Conversely, most Upper West Siders have friends and family in other parts of the country,
or came from there themselves.]
I'll admit that the lack of knowledge runs both ways, but it's a lot worse to live in Manhattan and know nothing about life in other parts of the country than it is to live elsewhere and know nothing about life in Manhattan. That's because Manhattan's just one place, with a lifestyle very different from almost anywhere else, while daily life in, for instance, Salem, Oregon is pretty much the same as in Knoxville, Tennessee - in other words, if you're familiar with Salem, you understand what it's like in Knoxville, while if you know only Manhattan, you're a fish out of water just about everywhere else.
[I'll admit that the lack of knowledge runs both ways, but it's a lot worse to live in Manhattan and know nothing about life in other parts of the country than it is to live elsewhere and know nothing about life in Manhattan. That's because Manhattan's just one place, with a lifestyle very different from almost anywhere else, while daily life in, for instance, Salem, Oregon is pretty much the same as in Knoxville, Tennessee - in other words, if you're familiar with Salem, you understand what it's like in Knoxville, while if you know only Manhattan, you're a fish out of water just about everywhere else.]
Well, the general attitude can best be summed up in the term "flyover people." I think it's a question of class, power, education--you'll find the same thing in Washington, Paris, Tokyo, or any other place that the elite congregates. But frankly, I'm more bothered right now by the attitude of the country as a whole to the problems of the cities--because it's the cities that need the help, and instead government policy seems to be to strangle them, to make them cesspools of poverty. And that makes me angry because I live in one. On a more objective note, I believe that the destruction of the cities has had negative consequences for the country as a whole. Whether a region prospers or not should be determined on the basis of free market economics, not government meddling. Businesses and employees should be free to make decision about where to locate on the basis of what's best for their work, not which area will tax them to support poor people.
[Businesses and employees should be free to make decision about where to locate on the basis of what's best for their work, not which area will tax them to support poor people.]
Actually, businesses tend to locate where there is a low-cost, nonunion labor force. Tax levels are of much less importance.
[Actually, businesses tend to locate where there is a low-cost, nonunion labor force. Tax levels are of much less importance.]
But when they're high enough, tax levels are part of that equation.
Taxes drive labor costs up because they increase the local cost of living and push people into higher tax brackets. And when business taxes are truly exhorbitant they can drive up the cost of business so much that non-labor expenses becomes an issue. That seems to be true of New York State, where I've read many accounts of upstate businesses that say they're leaving or have left because of the tax burden, and its definitely true of the NYC region, which has a huge, cheap labor pool but incredibly high taxes to go along with union costs.
Then too, not all businesses make a conscious decision to locate or relocated. Businesses get started and either find fertile ground to expand or not. The sad and simple truth is that outside of a few premium areas it's hard to start a competitive business in New York State. Want to say sell computers on the Internet? Your taxes are higher, your employees have to be paid more, your buildings are more expensive--and everything you sell in New York State carries an exhorbitant sales tax that your competitors in other parts of the country don't have to collect.
Unions are a problem. The geographical segregation of the labor pool is a problem--no cheap labor in the suburbs, no secretaries in the City. And the highest state and local taxes in the continental United States are a problem.
Cut taxes to the levels of the sunbelt. Provide basic services at the state level so that the middle class can move back into the City and the poor are encouraged to move to lower cost areas inside and outside the state. End idiotically self-destructive programs like rent control, while focusing on basic infrastructure needs like needed highways rather than pork. Make an all-out effort against organized crime and union racketeering. Stop competing with New Jersey for the dregs and start thinking as a region. Then give things a few years, and I think the City and State will explode with economic activity! The Feds subsidize the sunbelt, but we're richer overall, #10 in per capita income, and we have strong resources like three airports, a great port, and a huge local population. There's *no intrinsic reason* why we should we worse off than a place like Atlanta.
(There's *no intrinsic reason* why we should we worse off than a place like Atlanta.)
Despite bad government, we're still better off than Atlanta. And even if we eliminated taxes and reintroduced slavery to cut our labor costs, when the region's economy expanded to a certain level (given that it is already big and full), real estate prices would explode and choke us off. It's starting to happen now, though I hope to get a couple of more years out of the boom.
[Despite bad government, we're still better off than Atlanta. And even if we eliminated taxes and reintroduced slavery to cut our labor costs, when the region's economy expanded to a certain level (given that it is already big and full), real estate prices would explode and choke us off. It's starting to happen now, though I hope to get a couple of more years out of the boom.]
You are correct about real estate prices as a constraint on growth. In many parts of the country, cheap land for business and residential expansion can be found within a reasonable distance of the city center. I was reminded of that fact about a year ago, when I was flying back from Florida and the plane made a stop in Jacksonville (which, of course, is an example of a rapidly growing Sunbelt metro area). I was sitting on the left side of the plane as it landed on a roughly east-west runway, so I had a view to the north. Jacksonville airport is maybe 15 miles north of downtown. At any rate, I saw absolutely *nothing* to the north of the airport except seemingly endless expanses of pine forest. I might as well have been flying over northern Siberia, for all of the signs of human development that I saw.
My point behind this anecdote is that Jacksonville has almost unlimited room for expansion. No doubt houses will one day spring up on this land to the north of the airport, only twenty miles or so to downtown and a still-reasonable thirty or so miles to the main business areas south of the city center. And I'm sure that Jacksonville is by no means alone among Sunbelt cities when it comes to the easy availability of land for future growth. In contrast, there isn't much available land within a 50-mile radius of Manhattan, and what is available is costly. Land in Manhattan itself is very expensive and scarce. Short of rezoning old industrial space in the outer boroughs, there's no reasonable way of changing this situation and making more developable land available. This isn't to say that New York (city and state) shouldn't try to make itself more competitive, of course it should, but even the most far-reaching changes probably aren't going to make Sunbelt growth rates possible.
[Short of rezoning old industrial space in the outer boroughs, there's no reasonable way of changing this situation and making more developable land available. This isn't to say that New York (city and state) shouldn't try to make itself more competitive, of course it should, but even the most far-reaching changes probably aren't going to make Sunbelt growth rates possible.]
There's still plenty of land upstate, and there are lots of industrial lots in New Jersey that are sitting half empty.
If land cost were a primary consideration, everyone would move out West, where there are vast expanses that cost nothing.
What about building more skyscrapers?
Does it increase the amount of office space to make up for lack of land enough?
Sure--for a certain type of business.
[Despite bad government, we're still better off than Atlanta. And even if we eliminated taxes and reintroduced slavery to cut our labor costs, when the region's economy expanded to a certain level (given that it is already big and full), real estate prices would explode and choke us off. It's starting to happen now, though I hope to get a couple of more years out of the boom.]
The reintroduction of slavery would have obvious benefits. But apart from that--yes, we're still better off than Atlanta and the south in general. That's not what concerns me. What concerns me is the huge difference in growth rates. We're in a huge boom, and the Northeast isn't growing. The rest of the country is growing at a fabulous rate. We aren't doing well or even doing adequately, because once this boom is over we'll re-enter a period of "negative growth."
As to real estate, I don't think that's a real limitation. The City has grown before when it seemed physically impossible--that's how it got to be the way it was. There's still plenty of room for vertical growth (if we aren't so stupid that we zone it away) and there are plenty of underdeveloped areas. Sure, real estate prices would go up, but that's the way the market is supposed to work! Things will reach their own equilibrium, but it will be an equilibrium determined by free market economics rather than differential taxation. And I don't think it will really stop growth. It hasn't in the past. Nothing magical has occurred that says the region can't expand as it did earlier in the century, if not at quite the same rate.
I persist in believing that that's best for the majority of people in the region. Yes, I'm troubled by the wide discrepancy of wealth and overall poverty of the sunbelt, but I don't think we can fight that by spending money unilaterally or paying local workers more. Competitition makes that a losing game. Greater social equity has to come at the national level--and the best way of achieving that is by breaking the strange stranglehold of southern conservatives on the national government. That's less likely to happen if our region continues to lose relative population and influence, or if people can point to the sunbelt as a model of economic success.
Want to say sell computers on the Internet?
Your biggest problem will be dealing with Bell Atlantic.
[Your biggest problem will be dealing with Bell Atlantic.]
I've already complained about that to everyone from Pataki to the Public Service Commission. Not that I sell computers, but I went through hell to get ADSL and given the growing importance of the Internet their incompetence and malfeasance has to have a negative impact on the region.
So--get this--if you order Internet service thorugh a CLEC, neither you nor your ISP are allowed to complain about BA to the PSC, because the CLEC is considered BA's customer. But if you complain instead about your CLEC the PSC says it doesn't have jurisdiction because it only has jurisdiction over BA. Meanwhile, BA does anything it can to screw the CLEC's. It's a total Catch-22 and, I suspect, an excellent example of GCC (Government by Campaign Contribution).
BA? CLEC?
Sorry--BA = Bell Atlantic. A CLEC is a telephone company that's co-located in another phone company's central office. The idea is that to open the Baby Bell monopolies to competition, they have to allow other companies to share their facilities.
I never knew that the PSC didn't regulate the other local phone service providers. Maybe they should. Or maybe a customer's customer should be given standing to complain. Time to call my Assemblyman.
BTW: What does the E in CLEC stand for? Co-Located E?????? Company?
Co-located Local Exchange Company
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two right, two wrong.
Competitive Local Exchange Carrier.
You're right... it was late at night and my brain was set to "fuzzy". Still, there's no excuse for that... I've worked for AT&T for the past four-plus years so that terminology is extremely familiar to me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I never knew that the PSC didn't regulate the other local phone service providers. Maybe they should. Or maybe a customer's customer should be given standing to complain. Time to call my Assemblyman.]
That would be a wonderful thing to do. Also, write the head of the PSC, call the attorney general's office--they have some kind of investigation going on--and complain to the FCC. I spent some time calling around myself, but found myself in a Catch 22. (Pataki's office was arrogant and rude.)
[re effect of varying state and local tax burdens]
[Taxes drive labor costs up because they increase the local cost of living and push people into higher tax brackets. And when business taxes are truly exhorbitant they can drive up the cost of business so
much that non-labor expenses becomes an issue. That seems to be true of New York State, where I've read many accounts of upstate businesses that say they're leaving or have left because of the tax burden, and its definitely true of the NYC region, which has a huge, cheap labor pool but incredibly high taxes to go along with union costs.]
I'm not saying that state and local tax burdens are irrelevant, or that they don't in turn affect wage levels, but they aren't the be-all and end-all of area competitiveness. Wages account for anywhere from 50% to 80% of total costs for most businesses. State and local taxes usually are in the single digits. New York workers have a bad reputation, and that's not easy to overcome.
As for the NYC region's "huge, cheap labor pool," that's true only for the city itself. Most suburban areas are experiencing labor shortages particularly with respect to lower-paying jobs. And the pool of cheap labor in the city consists disproportionately of unskilled, uneducated people who sometimes don't speak English and more often than not have little or no work history.
[Cut taxes to the levels of the sunbelt. Provide basic services at the state level so that the middle class can move back into the City and the poor are encouraged to move to lower cost areas inside and outside the state. End idiotically self-destructive programs like rent control, while focusing on basic infrastructure needs like needed highways rather than pork. Make an all-out effort against organized
crime and union racketeering. Stop competing with New Jersey for the dregs and start thinking as a region. Then give things a few years, and I think the City and State will explode with economic activity! The Feds subsidize the sunbelt, but we're richer overall, #10 in per capita income, and we have strong resources like three airports, a great port, and a huge local population. There's *no intrinsic reason* why we should we worse off than a place like Atlanta.]
All good ideas, but let's not forget the momentum factor. Sunbelt places like Atlanta or Denver have become known for their business-friendly atmospheres and have built up a big head of steam when it comes to attracting and growing businesses. It won't be easy for New York, or any other non-trendy location for that matter, to catch a little of that momentum for themselves.
[I'm not saying that state and local tax burdens are irrelevant, or that they don't in turn affect wage levels, but they aren't the be-all and end-all of area competitiveness. Wages account for anywhere from 50% to 80% of total costs for most businesses. State and local taxes usually are in the single digits. New York workers have a bad reputation, and that's not easy to overcome.]
Do they really? Outside of the City, I mean, where we probably deserve it.
[As for the NYC region's "huge, cheap labor pool," that's true only for the city itself. Most suburban areas are experiencing labor shortages particularly with respect to lower-paying jobs. And the pool of cheap labor in the city consists disproportionately of unskilled, uneducated people who sometimes don't speak English and more often than not have little or no work history.]
Very true--I addressed this in another post. It seems to me it's a strong argument to bring the middle class back to NYC by equalizing taxes and benefits, and to encourage the poor to move into outlying areas where there are more job opportunities. The current system effectively segregates middle class and poor. The poor stay in the City because of better services, a main one being cheap transportation, and exclusionary zoning in the suburbs. The middle class stays in the suburbs because of high taxation in the City, poor services for the middle class, and the presence of the poor themselves, who bring high rates of crime and other unpleasantry.
It seems to me that some of these problems are intrinsic--surely there will be more poor people in NYC as long as it remains a gateway for immigrants. But others are artificial, the result of bad government decisions ranging from differentials in taxation to public housing to school busing.
I don't think it's possible to put a number on what's due to one factor and what's due to another. But I don't think it's necessary. We can't change everything, but we can change counterproductive government policies and see what happens. That can only make matters better.
Personally, I think that big immigrant labor pool could be an asset as it has been in the past. Businesses locate factories in the third world and do just fine with an imported managerial and technical staff and a largely unskilled labor force. That worked once in New York, when manufacturing was local--still does to a surprising degree, what with all those sweatshops churning out garments. It could work again, if we found a way to get the poor to the factories.
[Cut taxes to the levels of the sunbelt. Provide basic services at the state level so that the middle class can move back into the City and the poor are encouraged to move to lower cost areas inside and outside the state. End idiotically self-destructive programs like rent control, while focusing on basic infrastructure needs like needed highways rather than pork. Make an all-out effort against organized
crime and union racketeering. Stop competing with New Jersey for the dregs and start thinking as a region. Then give things a few years, and I think the City and State will explode with economic activity! The Feds subsidize the sunbelt, but we're richer overall, #10 in per capita income, and we have strong resources like three airports, a great port, and a huge local population. There's *no intrinsic reason* why we should we worse off than a place like Atlanta.]
All good ideas, but let's not forget the momentum factor. Sunbelt places like Atlanta or Denver have become known for their business-friendly atmospheres and have built up a big head of steam when it comes to attracting and growing businesses. It won't be easy for New York, or any other non-trendy location for that matter, to catch a little of that momentum for themselves.
[[New York workers have a bad reputation, and that's not easy to
overcome.]
Do they really? Outside of the City, I mean, where we probably deserve it.]
New York is widely known as a strong bastion of unionization. What's funny is that really may not be true anymore as far as private industry is concerned, as the city's union membership is heavily concentrated in government and (government-subsidized) health care. But reputations can be very persistent.
What would be wonderful is if NYS passed a right-to-work law (and it goes without saying that the chances of that are less than my chances of being selected Miss Nude America 2000). It wouldn't mean much in practical terms, but it would have vast symbolic importance - it would show that New York is a state that cares about business and will cultivate a pro-business environment.
[[As for the NYC region's "huge, cheap labor pool," that's true only for the city itself. Most suburban areas are experiencing labor shortages particularly with respect to lower-paying jobs. And the pool of cheap labor in the city consists disproportionately of unskilled, uneducated people who sometimes don't speak English and more often than not have little or no work history.]
[Very true--I addressed this in another post. It seems to me it's a strong argument to bring the middle class back to NYC by equalizing taxes and benefits, and to encourage the poor to move into outlying areas where there are more job opportunities. The current system effectively segregates middle class and poor. The poor stay in the City because of better services, a main one being cheap transportation, and exclusionary zoning in the suburbs. The middle class stays in the suburbs because of high taxation in the City, poor services for the middle class, and the presence of the poor themselves, who bring high rates of crime and other unpleasantry.]
You're correct about this economic segregation, but I'm not so sure that it's any worse in New York than in other large metro areas. For instance, even a dynamic success story like Atlanta has the poor concentrated in the center city with the middle and upper classes in the suburbs. Detroit is another example. I'm certainly not saying that economic segregation is good, but it's far from being a complete explanation for New York's woes.
[New York is widely known as a strong bastion of unionization. What's funny is that really may not be true anymore as far as private industry is concerned, as the city's union membership is heavily concentrated in government and (government-subsidized) health care. But reputations can be very persistent.
What would be wonderful is if NYS passed a right-to-work law (and it goes without saying that the chances of that are less than my chances of being selected Miss Nude America 2000). It wouldn't mean much in practical terms, but it would have vast symbolic importance - it would show that New York is a state that cares about business and will cultivate a pro-business environment.]
But as you say, it has little chance of happening. And even if most businesses today don't have to deal directly with union employees, they do have to deal indirectly with the high cost of union labor. It's a big downside, and I don't know what can be done about it, given that unions seem to hang on to the last man, an ever-shrinking pool of prosperity amongst the disenfranchised.
[You're correct about this economic segregation, but I'm not so sure that it's any worse in New York than in other large metro areas. For instance, even a dynamic success story like Atlanta has the poor concentrated in the center city with the middle and upper classes in the suburbs. Detroit is another example. I'm certainly not saying that economic segregation is good, but it's far from being a complete explanation for New York's woes.]
I don't think it's complete either. But it doesn have an effect--just ask a NYC businessman who's trying to hire a secretary. My thinking here is that it has more of an effect in NYC than in most other regions because the region is at once larger and more localized, e.g., businesses have to go farther away from the city center to find cheap land for factories or other cost-sensitive operations and all the way into Manhattan to take advantage of the City's infrastructure benefits.
Paradoxically, I think NY's public transportation system also has a negative effect here, because it encourages the poor to stay in the Ctiy center where they don't have the expense of car ownership.
[[You're correct about this economic segregation, but I'm not so sure that it's any worse in New York than in other large metro areas. For instance, even a dynamic success story like Atlanta has the
poor concentrated in the center city with the middle and upper classes in the suburbs. Detroit is another example. I'm certainly not saying that economic segregation is good, but it's far from being a
complete explanation for New York's woes.]
[I don't think it's complete either. But it does have an effect--just ask a NYC businessman who's trying to hire a secretary. My thinking here is that it has more of an effect in NYC than in most other
regions because the region is at once larger and more localized, e.g., businesses have to go farther away from the city center to find cheap land for factories or other cost-sensitive operations and all the way into Manhattan to take advantage of the City's infrastructure benefits.]
I suppose the region's size becomes an issue because it makes commuting more difficult and expensive. It's almost as if the city (basically Manhattan, in this context) and the suburbs are completely different labor markets. For instance, a McDonald's in Syosset or Paramus or Tarrytown might be finding it hard to recruit enough workers. There surely are many people in the Bronx or Brooklyn who would be eager for a job, any job, but they're hardly going to be able to commute to these suburbs just to flip burgers. The same thing in reverse might happen with a Manhattan job that's not particularly well-paying but does require some skills. It probably isn't cost-effective to take a commuter train into Manhattan for a job paying less than maybe $30,000. If the New York area were smaller in geographical extent, and commuting weren't such a hassle, the city and suburban job markets probably wouldn't be so separate and distinct. I would imagine that the same phenomenon exists to a lesser extent in some of the larger metro areas, such as Chicago and Los Angeles, so it's not entirely a New York exclusive except in terms of magnitude.
[Paradoxically, I think NY's public transportation system also has a negative effect here, because it encourages the poor to stay in the Ctiy center where they don't have the expense of car ownership.]
Quite true, though once again this is true to a lesser extent in other large metro areas. Few non-central-city areas are particularly transit-friendly.
[I suppose the region's size becomes an issue because it makes commuting more difficult and expensive. It's almost as if the city (basically Manhattan, in this context) and the suburbs are completely different labor markets. For instance, a McDonald's in Syosset or Paramus or Tarrytown might be finding it hard to recruit enough workers. There surely are many people in the Bronx or Brooklyn who would be eager for a job, any job, but they're hardly going to be able to commute to these suburbs just to flip burgers. The same thing in reverse might happen with a Manhattan job that's not particularly well-paying but does require some skills. It probably isn't cost-effective to take a commuter train into Manhattan for a job paying less than maybe $30,000. If the New York area were smaller in geographical extent, and commuting weren't such a hassle, the city and suburban job markets probably wouldn't be so separate and distinct. I would imagine that the same phenomenon exists to a lesser extent in some of the larger metro areas, such as Chicago and Los Angeles, so it's not entirely a New York exclusive except in terms of magnitude.]
Definitely a real problem. Suburban communities scramble for low level people, while poor people in New York are hard up for jobs; copnversely, many Manhattan businesses have given up on trying to find secretaries and other mid-level help. I agree that it's a widespread problem which has been exacerbated by City/suburban tax and service differentials and our permissive attitude towards criminal and behavioral offenses, which drives business and the middle class out of the cities and encourages suburbs to exclude poor people through zoning.
[Quite true, though once again this is true to a lesser extent in other large metro areas. Few non-central-city areas are particularly transit-friendly.]
True--the phenomenon certainly isn't limited to New York. But by the opposite token it's cheaper and easier to have a car in most other areas.
What you have to remember is that New York City is inherently a better place to start a business than anywhere else in the country, given its concentration of talent and buying power.
Knowing this, the city and state try to offset this advantage with higher taxes and inferior services.
But if you are going to talk about cutting taxes to the national average, you have to remember that NYC has services that other areas do not. Better think about joining a volunteer fire department, and installing a cesspool.
[What you have to remember is that New York City is inherently a better place to start a business than anywhere else in the country, given its concentration of talent and buying power.
Knowing this, the city and state try to offset this advantage with higher taxes and inferior services.
But if you are going to talk about cutting taxes to the national average, you have to remember that NYC has services that other areas do not. Better think about joining a volunteer fire department, and installing a cesspool.]
In many respects, I think that's true. It's why the City survived the bleak years when other cities did not and why it continues to squeak by with minor growth in spite of the high taxes and bad services. And its why I believe the City would take off like a rocket if the tax/services issue was removed.
But if it's a good place to start a business, it's not a good place for that business to grow. And it's not a good place to start a cost sensitive business, such as manufacturing or sales.
As to the extra services the City provides, true. But NY is no different in that respect from any other City, including cities that are currently showing much stronger growth. I would compare the City's taxes to those of sunbelt cities like Dallas and Atlanta, and the State's to sunbelt states.
Our money isn't going to infrastructure or basic services. Hell, even the Second Avenue Subway would be an almost trivial expense for a city this size--$13 billion as compared to a $37 billion annual municipal budget.
We prefer to spend five years asking Washington for the money instead of paying for it ourselves.
(We prefer to spend five years asking Washington for the money instead of paying for it ourselves. )
Of course, other places ask and receive. NYC is paying for the Third Water Tunnel, other places get federal money for similar projects.
Who cares what other people are doing? We are the ones waiting forever for the thing to be built..
[re nonresidents' lack of knowledge of life in Manhattan]
[They have no idea who to avoid when they come to the City.]
Just who is that?
[And they don't understand how much of a burden the poor are.]
There is no valid reason why the poor should be more of a burden in New York than anywhere else. After all, you'll find poor people in most places these days. The fact that they are a major burden in New York is due solely to the limo-libs and their boundless compassion, who in their ignorance believe that throwing enough taxpayer money at poverty (or any other social problem) is a guaranteed cure.
[[They have no idea who to avoid when they come to the City.]
Just who is that?]
People in backwards baseball caps.
Seriously, friends who have never lived in the City have no notion that some people are more dangerous than others. They'll walk up to kids wearing gang colors and ask directions as if they were the cop on the corner, and when you tell them to stay away they don't understand why. Then they won't let you take them to Central Park because they've heard its dangerous. Problem is, muggers specialize in just this sort of easy mark (or did in pre-Giuliani days).
[There is no valid reason why the poor should be more of a burden in New York than anywhere else. After all, you'll find poor people in most places these days. The fact that they are a major burden in New York is due solely to the limo-libs and their boundless compassion, who in their ignorance believe that throwing enough taxpayer money at poverty (or any other social problem) is a guaranteed cure.]
Yeah, except that New York has a much higher percentage of poor people and a much lower percentage of middle class people than most other localities. Even without the social programs, someone would have to pay for the police and fire departments and the schools. As to the social programs, limousine liberals certainly deserve some of the blame for that--but only some of the blame. No part of the country leaves poor people to die or starve anymore, and many of the programs are mandated, or programs that were once funded by the Federal Government but have since been fobbed off on states and localities. Nor were all of those programs and the corruption and bloat that make them inefficient hatched by limousine liberals, who whatever their flaws don't steal. Much of it is just old fashioned ethnic politics. Besides, right now, it's the City that keeps cutting back, while Pataki spends more and more on things like new insurance programs--and you could hardly call Pataki a limousine liberal.
So it seems to me that the situation is mixed. Yes, the City deserves blame for bloated medical spending, rent control, public housing, luxury housing for drug addicts, filet mignon for prisoners on Rikers Island, etc. But the rest of the State happily spends the City's tax money on things like LIRR bloat, LILCO, Nassau County, empty mental hospitals, and so on. And in any case, unless we're willing to return to the days of "How the Other Half Lives" and the 19th Century riots, the poor will continue to be a burden.
Let the Federal Government provide reasonable baseline benefits. Then if a state or locality chooses to do more, it's their own doing.
[Let the Federal Government provide reasonable baseline benefits (to the poor). Then if a state or locality chooses to do more, it's their own doing.]
I agree with the first sentence. As to the second sentence, I disagree - states and localities should be absolutely prohibited from adding anything to the uniform nationwide benefits that the federal government provides. If there are any possible exceptions, you can bet your life that New York will go hog wild and provide excessive benefits.
[I agree with the first sentence. As to the second sentence, I disagree - states and localities should be absolutely prohibited from adding anything to the uniform nationwide benefits that the federal government provides. If there are any possible exceptions, you can bet your life that New York will go hog wild and provide excessive benefits.]
Probably, but if we do, isn't that our own problem? I think we have too many states, but one of the advantages of that diversity is that they act as a laboratory for the country as a whole. We can look at two states and guage the effect of a speed limit reduction or tough graduation requirements or public housing or what have you.
Anyway, I think we should take responsibilty for our own mistakes. In some sense the City has--there's been a huge reversal of the policies that led to disaster in the 70's and 80's. But the reversal is far from complete, and sadly, the State has yet to get the message--it's still engaged in the sort of massive porkbarrel spending that drove the City to the verge of banrkuptcy.
[[...states and localities should be absolutely prohibited from adding anything to the uniform nationwide benefits that the federal government provides. If there are any possible exceptions, you can bet your life that New York will go hog wild and provide excessive benefits.]
[Probably, but if we do, isn't that our own problem? I think we have too many states, but one of the advantages of that diversity is that they act as a laboratory for the country as a whole.]
But New York is a special case because of the New York Times. The Times of course advocates throwing unlimited amounts of taxpayer money at social problems. And what the Times wants, it gets, thanks to its stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people who count. You'd have to go back to the days of Pravda in the old Soviet Union to find another newspaper that had anything remotely approaching that much influence.
[But New York is a special case because of the New York Times. The Times of course advocates throwing unlimited amounts of taxpayer money at social problems. And what the Times wants, it gets, thanks to its stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people who count. You'd have to go back to the days of Pravda in the old Soviet Union to find another newspaper that had anything remotely approaching that much influence.]
I don't think the Times begins to have that much influence. It's the paper of the elite, yes, but while they can lead the horse to water, they can't force it to drink. They don't really take the editorial initiative on much anymore--they're more likely to ratify what's already been done--and when they do, it's overlooked more often than not. For example, they've editorialized against rent control.
I don't know how many times I've seen worthwhile things hit those pages and be ignored. A favorite example--they published a letter years ago from a public health doctor warning that the elimination of TB funding in the City was premature and could lead to a resurgence of the disease. Guess what happened?
Conversely, since the paper became ethnically balkanized many of its editorials and columns are too braindead to appeal to a broad base.
Most of the Upper West Side is not on Riverside Drive or Central Park West. And have you ever taken a stroll up Amsterdam Avenue or along any of the side streets between Amsterdam and Broadway? If there are any maids there, they live there.
Your characterization of the Upper West Sider living elsewhere leads me to conclude that the similarity of the terms "Upper West Sider" and "Upper West Side" is coincidental. Having grown up in the neighborhood, I know very few people from the Upper West Side, with the exception of Central Park West residents, who meet your criteria -- OTOH, I know quite a few from the Upper East Side.
If you really do believe that the bulk of the Upper West Side is as you claim, I ask again: who are all those people crowding the subways and buses and, for that matter, the sidewalks of Broadway?
[Your characterization of the Upper West Sider living elsewhere leads me to conclude that the similarity of the terms "Upper West Sider" and "Upper West Side" is coincidental. Having grown up in the neighborhood, I know very few people from the Upper West Side, with the exception of Central Park West residents, who meet your criteria -- OTOH, I know quite a few from the Upper East Side.]
Not so much coincidental as, more likely, semi-obsolete. From what I've read, it appears that the Upper West Side was a hotbed of liberal political thought starting in the 1930's and 1940's, fueled at least in part by socialist or otherwise left-leaning refugees from Nazi Germany. These original lefties are mostly gone today, of course, and their descendants probably have become reasonably dispersed in a geographical sense. Yet the term Upper West Sider lives on. Just look at the weekly _NYPress_ if you want to see the term used repeatedly!
[Obviously you haven't been to the UWS lately. It's the home base for out of touch liberals with enough money to insulate themselves from the very problems their political ideals cause.]
I can't deny that. But I could say the same thing about wealthy conservatives. Like what this country really needs is the elimination of the estate tax . . . however misguided, at least limousine liberals try to help those less fortunate than themselves.
Of course, instead of teaching people how to fish, they just give them fish and solve nothing just the same.
[Of course, instead of teaching people how to fish, they just give them fish and solve nothing just the same.]
I couldn't have said it better--which is why we parted ways some years back.
Conservative: the ocean is full of fish
Liberal: here's a fish
Me: here's a fishing rod
[Conservative: the ocean is full of fish
Liberal: here's a fish
Me: here's a fishing rod]
Upper West Sider: We'll force the middle class to catch you a lifetime supply of fish.
[[Obviously you haven't been to the UWS lately. It's the home base for out of touch liberals with enough money to insulate themselves from the very problems their political ideals cause.]
[I can't deny that. But I could say the same thing about wealthy conservatives. Like what this country really needs is the elimination of the estate tax . . . however misguided, at least limousine liberals try to help those less fortunate than themselves.]
Your "however misguided" term is the whole point. Limousine Liberals have opened a Pandora's Box of social and economic problems thanks to their out-of-touch-with-reality compassion. By promoting welfare, and affirmative action, and cradle-to-grave indigent health care, they're created a veritable legion of people who are unable to care for themselves and will perpetuate future generations mired in complete dependency. Now, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not saying that compassion for the less fortunate is bad. In fact, it's vitally important, one of the things that separates man from the beasts, so to speak. But compassion has to be targeted toward the truly needy, and tempered with a degree of responsibility, if it is to help people and society in the long run.
[Your "however misguided" term is the whole point. Limousine Liberals have opened a Pandora's Box of social and economic problems thanks to their out-of-touch-with-reality compassion. By promoting welfare, and affirmative action, and cradle-to-grave indigent health care, they're created a veritable legion of people who are unable to care for themselves and will perpetuate future generations mired in complete dependency. Now, lest I be misunderstood, I'm not saying that compassion for the less fortunate is bad. In fact, it's vitally important, one of the things that separates man from the beasts, so to speak. But compassion has to be targeted toward the truly needy, and tempered with a degree of responsibility, if it is to help people and society in the long run.]
I couldn't agree more. But if you try to convince a limousine liberal of that, they immediately assume you're speaking out of callousness. A lot of that I think has to do with the right, which routinely opposes everything that might benefit those less fortunate than themselves. The notion that we should give poor people jobs and let them run their own lives--and that the moral degeneration caused by multigenerational welfare dependency will reverse if we do so--seems anathema to both groups.
Welcome to the right wing conspiracy, Peter. as someone who dares to point out flaws in the liberal-left agenda, you're now slapped with the label as a right-wing, ditto-headed fanatic.
[Welcome to the right wing conspiracy, Peter. as someone who dares to point out flaws in the liberal-left agenda, you're now slapped with the label as a right-wing, ditto-headed fanatic.]
Actually, my political views are quite varied, and I consider myself on balance to be just slightly to the right of center, but I honor and cherish the fact that the Upper West Siders now hate me!
Well, it's a bit funny that both sides are complaining, but given the obscene crowding on the lines that serve the East and West Sides I don't blame them for being riled and defensive. I've lived on both lines. The 7th Avenue is overcrowded and the service on the Lex is absolutely obscene. My current location puts me near the 6th and 8th Avenues and the service is great by comparison.
One way to help with the 7th Ave. crowding is to run 10 car #3 trains. But even as it is now, the West Side IRT runs at around 100% capacity, wheras the East side runs at 125% capacity. To claim that the West Side IRT is "overcrowded" is to confuse normal crowding (packed trains) with overcrowding (people unable to get into trains, having to let 2 or 3 of them go before squeezing in, etc.).
And West Side riders have the alternative of the CPW IND line. The East Side does not.
...wheras the East side runs at 125% capacity....
On what do you base this metric?
The MTA itself. Can't quote the exact source, but their claim is that the East Side IRT runs at 120%-125% of capacity. I do recall this statistic being repeated in newspaper articles over the competimng 2nd Ave. line proposals.
The MTA itself. Can't quote the exact source, but their claim is that the East Side IRT runs at 120%-125% of capacity.
According to the MTA study Table 9D-9 the only portion of the Lex that is currently running above service level capacity is the express between 86th St and Union Square. Their figures are: 116% between 86th and 59th; 109% between 59th and Grand Central and 102% between Grand Central and 14th St.
N.B. These percentages are based on service level loads of 110 passengers per car. They are also based on an average of only 25 tph.
The same reference also states that line has a theoretical capacity of 30 tph with dwell times of 30 seconds.
The average rush hour dwell time are less than 30 seconds on this line according to my own measurements. This means that the load factor figures would be derated by 83%, if the MTA followed its own service capacity guidelines. Such derating would would reduce the maximum load factor to 97% of service load capacity, if such service were run.
The use for the Lex presently reaches a maximum of 97% for the express and only 75% for the local capacity. The fact that the lines are much more crowded is a tribute to NYCT's operational genius and not to any capacity shortcomings for the existing infrastructure.
(According to the MTA study Table 9D-9 the only portion of the Lex that is currently running above service level capacity is the express between 86th St and Union Square).
The MTA's definition of capacity isn't going to win the Baldrige Quality award. Moreover, how many people are in cabs or on slow moving buses because of the crowding on the Lex. It's like the city schools -- they have 37 percent of the state's school children, but NYC has 44 percent of the state's four year olds.
In most senses, the quality of life is improving. Not the Lex. Only the Second Avenue subway -- the connections to Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens lines -- can improve it.
The MTA's definition of capacity isn't going to win the Baldrige Quality award.
The service level capacity figures are not that bad. At 110 passengers per car this implies 40 seated and 70 standing. If you distribute the 70 standees around the car, you'll find that it isn't that bad. Try doing your own standee counts, the next time you ride the IRT.
We are not talking crush load capacities.
In most senses, the quality of life is improving. Not the Lex. Only the Second Avenue subway -- the connections to Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens lines -- can improve it.
This is a real stretch. What is your objection to running the Lex at its design service levels? Favorable results?
The Lexington Ave. line cannot run at maximum capacity theoretically allowed by the signal system for the previously explained safety and car shortage issues. If it could, it would.
[The Lexington Ave. line cannot run at maximum capacity theoretically allowed by the signal system for the previously explained safety and car shortage issues. If it could, it would.]
So you're going to build a new line for meaningless safety reasons (there were *no* fatal accidents for many, many years under the old rules) and because the MTA doesn't happen to have enough cars? What about those redbirds they're about to throw out?
Seems to me you've just reaffirmed what Stephen said--the Lex is overcrowded because of MTA incompetence, not the actual capacity of the line.
At the same time, I *have* seen the MTA capacity specs you quote, and can only think that the discrepancy has to do with underlying assumptions about capacity. Also, the Lexington Avenue is much more crowded than any of these specifications suggest. I lived along it for 10+ years and it was always on the edge of a meltdown--trains skipping stations, conductors struggling to close doors, huge crowds in the stations when there was the slightest delay. None of the other lines I've taken, including the E, the F, and the 7, has been in anything like that shape.
Which brings up another obscenity--the fact that the E and F are so crowded, but they don't run 11 car trains.
[One way to help with the 7th Ave. crowding is to run 10 car #3 trains. But even as it is now, the West Side IRT runs at around 100% capacity, wheras the East side runs at 125% capacity. To claim that the West Side IRT is "overcrowded" is to confuse normal crowding (packed trains) with overcrowding (people unable to get into trains, having to let 2 or 3 of them go before squeezing in, etc.).]
It sometimes *is* impossible to squeeze onto downtown 2 or 3 trains at 34th-Penn during morning rush. You've got throngs of LIRR riders trying to get onboard, while relatively few people get off at that station. If there's a delay of more than six or seven minutes between trains, the platform crowds get so large that they won't fit onto the next train.
That's because people can't stand the 2 or 3 minutes extra it would take to use the #1 or 9 lines instead. In this situation, there is an alternative...
People could stand it if they didn't have to stand packed like sardines for those extra 2 or 3 minutes.
Stop comparing Penn Station to Grand Central or 86th Street/Lexington Ave. The crowding at Penn is not as bad as anything on the East Side.
Being a somewhat frequent rider of the 1/9 (twice a week for the last 2 years, with occasional daily treks) at the height of the AM rush, I ride from 231st St to 42nd St. The train is usually SRO, but the load is nothing I would describe as crush. And the train empties out 3 times before we hit 42nd St. Many riders transfer to an already SRO 2 train at 96th St, or a 3 train that's about 1/2 full. Some of those express riders step to the local, many just so they can sit. The cycle repeats at 72nd St, and at 59th St, more pax get off than on. Crush is a PM rush 4 train, with a 7pm start at Yankee Stadium. THAT'S a crush load!
-Hank
I was there after the game friday. What a mad house getting out of Yankee stadium.Both Transit and driving! Are there no other alternatives?
The way the Yankees are playing right now, you won't need to worry about alternatives :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL. It would be wise to avoid sitting in the box seats behind first base when Chuck Knoblauch is playing.
He hit Keith Olbermann's MOM!
-Hank
Can you imagine him interviewing Knobby:
Keith: "Hi, welcome to FOX Sports"
Chuck: "Good to be here"
Keith: "You hit my mommy. Why?"
LOL
I'd bet the IND is less crowded than the IRT. As for driving, most of the suburbanites who drive in are afraid of the Bronx. You could probably ride north on the Grand Councourse, no problem. If I were coming in from the north, I'd probably park in Norwood or Woodlawn and take the 4 or B/D down. I'd probably be on the road before the Bronx-phobic make it onto the Deegan.
Many people forget that there is another subway line to take to Yankee Stadium, because it's unseen underneath the ground, as opposed to the well visable #4 elevated.
Are they ever gonna build that spur off the Metro North line to provide service directly to the stadium?
(Are they ever gonna build that spur off the Metro North line to provide service directly to the stadium? )
The whole stadium thing periodically resurfaces at City Planning then disappears again. The Hudson line stop is easy. In fact, one thing that amazes us (only in New York) is that Pataki doesn't just send out a crew and build a temporary platform to see if anyone will use it. Kind of like the LaGuardia shuttle bus from Ditmas. That's what happens when you require as much procedural BS for any little thing as for a new interstate running through Central Park.
Hooking the Harlem and New Haven lines around involves some real work.
In any event, the problem is how to get the New Jersey fans in and out. My solution is an anti-trust suit -- clearly if baseball wasn't a predatory monopoly, there would be a third team in the Metro area, probably in New Jersey. Then no one would have to cross a bridge.
Baseball is not a monopoly; it's a joint venture, a single business enterprise. Anyone who wants to can start his own league, if he can find the resources.
HORSEHOCKEY!!!! Baseball (and every OTHER major sports league) is a CARTEL, just like OPEC....It controls 90% of the resources, and decides how much it will charge for those resources.
The barriers to entry for someone starting a new professional sport leage are just the natural consequences of high start up costs. There are plenty of ball players whose contracts are up for renewal every year, not to mention rookies. All it takes is money. Lots of it.
As for being a cartel, like OPEC, OPEC members are economic competitors, who have no need to work together unless they want to fix prices or production levels and thereby screw the customers. Unlike the members of OPEC, baseball teams are only in competition with each other on the playing field. It is the essential nature of their business that they must cooperate with each other in order to stage the events that the customers pay to attend. Every team depends on help from every other team; otherwise it has no opponents and nothing to sell.
That no one wants to risk the amount of money necessary to start a competing league is just the free market in operation.
But the market is flawed when a monopoly exists and the high cost of startup prevents any competition from arising. For that anti-trust law exists.
>>> when a monopoly exists and the high cost of startup prevents any competition from arising. For that anti-trust law exists <<<
Wrong, Pigs!
The anti-trust laws exist to prevent those with a monopoly or near monopoly position from taking an unfair advantage of that position, not to assist others to overcome the high cost of entry into the field. That's why there are no anti-trust suits against Boeing although it is the only U.S. company building airliners.
BTW the Supreme Court decision that exempted baseball from the anti-trust laws was based on the notion that the "national pastime" was not a business. It is doubtful that the Court would rule that way now.
Tom
You're right. I'm sure that the Court today would hold that MLB is engaged in commerce. Once past that hurdle, it would have to address the question of whether MLB is essentially a single business or many. If it is one business, there can be no claim of conspiracy among its owners, although a monopolization claim can be made against a single entity if the required elements are present.
In as much as decisions affecting the locations of teams raise raise "market sharing" issues under Section 1 of the Sherman Act (prohibiting conspiracies in restraint of trade), a finding that MLB is a single business would bar such a claim. Even if the Court held that MLB is not a single business, I expect that it would still apply the "rule of reason" (basing its decision on whether the defendants had behaved "reasonably") rather than the "per se" rule (under which all agreements in restraint of trade that fall into certain categories are deemed illegal (e.g. price fixing between competitors).
>BTW the Supreme Court decision that exempted baseball from the anti->trust laws was based on the notion that the "national pastime" was >not a business. It is doubtful that the Court would rule that way >now.
Not quite true. In the original decision, the Court ruled that baseball was not *interstate* commerce, and therefore did not fall under federal law. At the time, businesses that we would now consider "service" industries--i.e., that did not produce and ship tangible goods--were not considered to be in interstate commerce. A law firm that did business in several states but had offices in only one would have been treated the same. This intepretation of the law was demolished by the Court something like six months later--literally--but the baseball decision stands to this day. Now, the reaffirmation of this decision in the Curt Flood case was, in essence, based on the concept that baseball was not a business. Officially, the court ruled that the exemption should stand since Congress had not chosen to alter the antitrust law to specifically include baseball--a novel doctrine, which would have changed a lot of decisions had it been applied consistently, like Brown vs. Board of Education. There is an amusing anecdote about the case in Bob Woodward's book, The Brethren. I forget who wrote the opinion--I think it was Blackmun--but he began with a double-digit page paean to great players of the past. Apparently, it got so long that his law clerks started joking with him about it, "complaining" that he'd left their favorite players out.
By the way, all four major sports leagues have been explicitly exempted by Congress from antitrust with respect to TV negotiations. However, the non-baseball sports are still obliged to obey it with respect to competition from other leagues (see the USFL decision.)
Not true--baseball is a legal monopoly, specifically exempted from the Federal antitrust laws.
Last I checked (quite a while ago), that was the caselaw; but there was no statute. Do you know if Congress has passed a statute on the subject? The case I refer to is a very old one. Economic theory evolves over time and antitrust caselaw does too.
The only way to get a definitive answer is to sue. Want to bring a class action against MLB to force them to give us a 3rd team? Whether you're right and they're exempt or I'm right and they're not in violation, it's a loser either way.
[Last I checked (quite a while ago), that was the caselaw; but there was no statute. Do you know if Congress has passed a statute on the subject? The case I refer to is a very old one. Economic theory evolves over time and antitrust caselaw does too.
The only way to get a definitive answer is to sue. Want to bring a class action against MLB to force them to give us a 3rd team? Whether you're right and they're exempt or I'm right and they're not in violation, it's a loser either way.]
I've read several times in the newspapers that there's a statute, but that's about as good a guarantee of accuracy as dissecting a goose liver. Anyone else know?
"In any event, the problem is how to get the New Jersey fans in and out. My solution is an anti-trust suit -- clearly if baseball
wasn't a predatory monopoly, there would be a third team in the Metro area, probably in New Jersey."
That suit wouldn't go very far, baseball enjoys an exemption from anti-trust laws.
Mad house? You left after the 7th then, with the rest of the Yankee dreck?
We left after the game ended, and walked to the Concourse for the Bx1 back to Riverdale. Bus wasn't even crowded.
-Hank
[Being a somewhat frequent rider of the 1/9 (twice a week for the last 2 years, with occasional daily treks) at the height of the AM rush, I ride from 231st St to 42nd St. The train is usually SRO, but the load is nothing I would describe as crush. And the train empties out 3 times before we hit 42nd St. Many riders transfer to an already SRO 2 train at 96th St, or a 3 train that's about 1/2 full. Some of those express riders step to the local, many just so they can sit. The cycle repeats at 72nd St, and at 59th St, more pax get off than on.]
Most mornings I take the 1/9 from 34th-Penn to 14th, mainly because the express platform is so overcrowded. I notice a somewhat similar cycling on the 1/9 at 34th. Trains arrive heavily loaded but generally short of crush levels. There is a "negative" cycling at 34th, with more people getting off than on and the trains leaving the station less crowded than they were when they arrived. There's not too much action either way at 28th, while at 23rd there's another, less pronounced negative cycling. A modest number of people board at 18th but very few get off. Finally, at 14th there is another negative cycling, not as pronounced as the one at 14th but bigger than 23rd's. Incidentally, there don't seem to be many express-local transfers at 14th. The upshot is that the 1/9 is reasonably uncrowded south of 14th, with the occasional free seat.
Starting in mid-July, I'll be taking the 1/9 to Houston every morning, as my employer is relocating, so I'll have a better sense of passenger loads south of 14th.
Better alternative? The "A" train. Most of these are going to the financial district, the "A" train goes to the same place as the 2/3 (Chambers/WTC at Park Place or Chambers St; Fulton St/B'way Nassau). If they want to go to WALL STREET itself, they can always get off their "A" train and hop a "J" or "Z" at B'way Nassau. OR, God Forbid, some of these spoiled brats could actually WALK a few blocks.
Long Islanders - have NO tolerance for the LEAST sort of inconvenience. PHOOEY on them all.
wayne
Agreed. Reason enough to torpedo the proposed Grand Central LIRR connection.
(Agreed. Reason enough to torpedo the proposed Grand Central LIRR connection.)
Now, now. Don't we all agree that after the LILCO bailout for Suffolk County, the $100 million in aid for Nassau, the MTA loans to Nassau that won't be paid back, and the LIRR to Grand Central, Long Island taxpayers will be soooo grateful that they will enthusiastically support paying state taxes to build a Second Avenue Subway?
(Agreed. Reason enough to torpedo the proposed Grand Central LIRR connection.)
Now, now. Don't we all agree that after the LILCO bailout for Suffolk County, the $100 million in aid for Nassau, the MTA loans to Nassau that won't be paid back, the LIRR to Grand Central, the elimination of the commuter tax, and the STAR program, Long Island taxpayers will be soooo grateful to us City residents for paying higher taxes for an inferior quality of life that they will enthusiastically support paying state taxes to build a Second Avenue Subway?
What's the STAR program?
School tax exemption for those that no longer have school age children.
[School tax exemption for those that no longer have school age children.]
Ouch!
[Agreed. Reason enough to torpedo the proposed Grand Central LIRR connection.]
But nothing compared to the fact that *we don't need it to do the same thing!* The tunnel has plenty of capacity! The station has plenty of capacity! Just tie the 63rd Street tunnel into the outer tracks, change the power and signals, and save billions of dollars and years of construction.
[Long Islanders - have NO tolerance for the LEAST sort of inconvenience. PHOOEY on them all.]
Well heck, if you commute on the LIRR, you get to experience a life's worth of inconvenience in the typical week!
Or if you use the LIE.
[One way to help with the 7th Ave. crowding is to run 10 car #3 trains. But even as it is now, the West Side IRT runs at around 100% capacity, wheras the East side runs at 125% capacity. To claim that the West Side IRT is "overcrowded" is to confuse normal crowding (packed trains) with overcrowding (people unable to get into trains, having to let 2 or 3 of them go before squeezing in, etc.).
And West Side riders have the alternative of the CPW IND line. The East Side does not.]
My understanding is that they can't run 10 car trains because of the length of the tracks in the yard.
About 50% of the City's subway lines are officially considered overcrowded. But I agree that the Lex is just about the worst. Frankly, I think it's fairly obscene that anybody should have to stand in this day and age.
Yes, and almost all of that 50% can be attributed to the East Side IRT, the Queens Blvd. IND, the Flushing IRT and all lines moving through the Dekalb Ave. corridor (B,D,M,N,Q,R lines). The latter could be solved by a fully functional Manhattan Bridge. The other three are really the only overcrowded lines which deserve serious attention.
All overcrowded lines deserve attention. You don't compete with automobile-intensive regions for businesses and residents by forcing passengers to stand for half an hour.
Oh, yes. We should all get to sit on our collective asses, and never need to stand or walk a 1/2 block to get ANYWHERE. Can't wait for them to install a moving sidewalk to get me from my house to my bus stop. It's such a TIRING 1/2 mile walk.
Even when service was at it's best and fastest, people stood. They stood on Day 1. They'll stand on day 1,000,001. They'll stand until the cow statues fly.
-Hank
[Oh, yes. We should all get to sit on our collective asses, and never need to stand or walk a 1/2 block to get ANYWHERE. Can't wait for them to install a moving sidewalk to get me from my house to my bus stop. It's such a TIRING 1/2 mile walk.
Even when service was at it's best and fastest, people stood. They stood on Day 1. They'll stand on day 1,000,001. They'll stand until the cow statues fly.
-Hank]
This isn't 1900, or 1940. People can and do commute in the comfort of their cars. We should be attracting businesses and residents to the City, not driving them away with poverty-level services.
And we should also not be content with the status quo.
If it can be changed, there is no reason not to. Especially if it leads to an improvement.
[And we should also not be content with the status quo.
If it can be changed, there is no reason not to. Especially if it leads to an improvement.]
But how do you do it? That's the frustrating thing to me. I don't think there's anybody on this board who can't think of lots of ways to improve the subways--and chances are as good as not those same ideas were being floated in 1934. But there's blockage at every level. Politicians. Bureaucrats. Unions. NIMBY's. They all have one thing in common--they take things that *could* be done and make them impossible, because they're so much more interested in their own butts than anybody else's . . .
That is a whole other argument. But to say it should not be done because of tradition is just a load of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" bull.
I agree. I was just trying to put it in a larger context. Bureaucracies seem to operate on the principle of MEE--Minimal Effort Everywhere.
The subject "Best Subway Sounds" discussing all of the different sounds people think should be used for the door chimes I'm for the standard door chimes that have been used by the TA since the R-44 cars which is the DING! DONG! chimes that use the notes E-C which sound when the doors are about to close. I don't think that they should be change because New Yorkers and perhaps others have become used to the standard DING! DONG! E-C note door chimes. Maybe these should be used in subway systems throughout the world.
BMTJeff
The train I was on a r-62 went ding-ding.
Some cars have been known to go dong-ding.
Then, of course, some chimes are out of tune...
Does anyone know what the door chimes of the long departed BMT Green Hornet experimental el train sounded like?
Wasn't it also on the Zephyr and Bluebird? The Bluebird was by far the most advanced and it had to have it too.
In any case, it would have been an actual bell, there where no computers back then.
Pigs of Royal Island:
As far as I know the door chimes were only on the experimental "Green Hornet" but it is entirely possible that they were also on the "Zephyr" and the "Bluebird".
BMTJeff
I got home to my suburban DC home about 60 minutes ago so here is the post I make every time I return from NY or a railfan trip.
On Monday I went up to NYC on the 1:00 Metroliner. Suprisingly, there was a delay due to equipment shortages although we only left a few minutes late and arrived in New York on time. I got a crowded R46 E train (when I got to the station, it was already pretty crowded) and took it to Lex where I got a R62 6 train. The motorman on this train was not so great with the brakes.
Tuesday's travels took me on a string of bad luck in getting the redbirds before they head to the scrap yard. At 77th, a redbird 6 pulled in as I came in so I couldn't get to the front. Then at 59th, a 5 train was in the station and left. I got the railfan window of the next 4 train of R62s although the motorwoman had half the window blocked with her jacket. I took a different form of transportation out to Ellis Island, the ferryboat. I got some good pictures (hopefully) of the skylines. On the way back to the Upper East Side, I took the first train that came in to Bowling Green, a R62 4 train. I did not wait for a redbird 5 because I saw a R62 5 train head into the South Ferry Loop. Half my party took seats in the middle of the car and the other half stood at the railfan window so right before 42nd, I was unable to get our group onto the redbird 6 on the local tracks to 77th, so I had to go up to 86th.
That evening, I went to see the Yankees-Red Sox game (rooting for Boston). On the 4, a man was leaning against the window reading a book so I had a pretty poor view. We skipped 138th and stopped on the center track at 149th. I thought there was a crossover north of 138th.
On the way home, the few staff on the southbound 4 platform did not ask the first groups of people to move to the back of the platform so anyone who came after that group had assembeled on the south end of the platform had a hard time getting to the back of the platform or if the train came in, the train itself! The packed train left and at 86th, a half empty 4 came in after ours. What the MTA needs to do after Yankee games is request that the first people to arrive move to the back of the train and hold trains in the station until they are full or the next train is waiting to enter the station. Both times I've tried to get home from the House that Ruth Built, it has not been great.
On Wednesday, I went to the Brooklyn Museum. I took the articulated M79 (which belongs on 2nd Avenue, not 79th Street) over to Broadway, took the 1 to 72nd, and a 2 to Eastern Parkway. I had the railfan window south of 42nd street. The pictures of the 3rd Avenue at the BMA are pretty interesting. On the way home, my grandmother and I took a 2 train to Franklin Avenue, the Shuttle to Fulton Street, and the C to 81st since she is interested in art (stained glass at Franklin Avenue and mosaic at 81st/CPW) and I'm interested in subways (self-explanatory). The iron work at Park and the stained glass at Franklin on the shuttle are nice and the mosaic at 81st is really cool. It was also my first time on the Franklin Shuttle and the C and I enjoyed the C (depsite the 1-star rating Stan Fischer gave the line). While standing at the railfan window of this train, a young woman and I started talking and she said I should write a book about the subway since I knew so much. On the M79 back to the East Side, I got bus 1038 which was driven by a very kind driver who made the most helpful announcements. The one for Lexington Avenue was "Lexington Avenue for the M101, 102, 103, and M98 heading downtown. Also, at 77th Street, you can get the 6 train and Lenox Hill Hospital. Also, this is the stop for Bloomingdale's. I called the MTA to give the driver an Apple Award which he definately deserved.
I only took public transport on the way to the theatre to see "The Musicman". I took the 6 to the E to 7th Avenue. On the way home, most of my party was not in a mood to wait for a bus.
Thursday was more relaxed. My grandmother and I took the M1 up to 91st Street to get something and then took the M86 to the M7 to get to the IMAX theatre at 68th and Broadway. The air assist door on the M1 did not work and I had to push the door open manually (ugh).
On Friday, we went to the Hayden Planitaruim so my travels were restricted to the M79.
Last but not least, Saturday, my grandmother and I tried to take the 6 train to 51st Street. For some reason we skipped it (there were passengers at 51st when we rolled through) and we shuttled over to 42nd on the S and then took a 2 to Penn Station. I took train 209 to Union Station and then took the Red Line home completing my trip.
how can you say you missed riding a redbird
during your trip if (it's apparent) you made
NO EFFORT to catch one.. or even WAIT for one.
1 South Ferry 9
Intentionally waits for redbirds.. and proud of it.
When you travel with your grandmother, you can't wait for these things to come. On occasion, we've waited for atrics on the M79 and she was willing to go to Franklin Avenue even though we had no reason to go there.
Anyone know anything about some Kansas City Southern passenger coaches that were bought, or were considered to be bought, by the LIRR in the mid-1960's?
There were a bunch of coaches AND some "parlor" (actually, sleepers) bought from KCS. All were acquired in September, 1968 by LIRR.
Here's the scoop:
"PARLORS" (as used on LIRR)
LIRR 2048 "Manhasset", ex-KCS "Job Edson"
LIRR 2049 "Massapequa", ex-KCS "Leonor Loree"
LIRR 2050 "Mastic", ex-KCS "William Edenborn"
Above three cars are 14 roomette, 4 bedroom cars, all built by Pullman-Standard in 1948.
"COACHES"
LIRR 8554, 62 seat coach, ex-KCS 251, orig. KCS 239 "Kansas City"
LIRR 8555, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 252, orig. KCS 241 "Shreveport"
LIRR 8556, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 253, orig. KCS 243 "Baton Rouge" (I)
LIRR 8557, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 254, orig. KCS 244 "New Orleans"
LIRR 8558, 74 seat coach, ex-KCS 255, orig. KCS 234 "Pittsburg"
LIRR 8559, 74 seat coach, ex-KCS 256, orig. KCS 235 "Joplin"
LIRR 8560, 74 seat coach, ex-KCS 257, orig. KCS 236 "Texarkana"
LIRR 8561, 74 seat coach, ex-KCS 258, orig. KCS 237 "A;exandria" (I)
LIRR 8562, 74 seat coach, ex-KCS 259, orig. KCS 238 "Baton Rouge" (II)
LIRR 8563, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 261, orig. KCS 247
LIRR 8564, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 262, orig. KCS 246
LIRR 8565, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 263, orig. KCS 248
LIRR 8566, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 264, orig. KCS 245
LIRR 8567, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 265, orig. KCS 250
LIRR 8568, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 266, orig. KCS 249
LIRR 8573, 60 seat coach, ex-KCS 260, orig. KCS 242 "Alexandria" (II)
Coaches 8554-8557 were built by AC&F in 1949.
Coaches 8558-8562 were built by AC&F in 1940.
Coaches 8563-8568 were built by AC&F in 1956.
Coach 8573 was built by AC&F in 1949.
Thanks Steve!
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
I heard that LIRR requires 2 years of college and to be 21 to be an LE. However, I heard that to be an LE for MNRR, all I gotta do is be a Conductor or AC. Can someone confirm?
If that's true that's funny, because MNRR is a better railroad to work for. The trains and tracks are in better shape, and don't trains go faster on MNRR than LIRR?
I'm suprised it aint the other way around, but I guess you need the 2 years of college for social training since you have to deal with angry mobs of messy commuters everyday!
Add to that the poor condition of the railroad in many spots (Jamaica comes to mind) and you need to know math to count all the old switches you cross!
I've never been on Metro North. How does it really compare to LIRR?
[I've never been on Metro North. How does it really compare to LIRR?]
I'll put it in motor vehicle terms. Metro North is a 2000 Lexus right off the showroom floor. The LIRR is a heavily rusted 1986 Yugo with a blown head gasket.
Metro North is a 2000 Lexus right off the showroom floor. The LIRR is a heavily rusted 1986 Yugo with a blown head gasket.
Methinks you are being a bit too charitable to Metro North, Peter. MN is more like a '96 LeSabre - a decidedly average, comfortable car, but at least its elderly owners have taken good care of it. And NJ Transit is a '91 Crown Vic - beaten half to death and still going strong.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[Metro North is a 2000 Lexus right off the showroom floor. The LIRR is a heavily rusted 1986 Yugo with a blown head gasket.]
[Methinks you are being a bit too charitable to Metro North, Peter. MN is more like a '96 LeSabre - a decidedly average, comfortable car, but at least its elderly owners have taken good care of it. And NJ Transit is a '91 Crown Vic - beaten half to death and still going strong.]
Yes, you're right, Metro North isn't quite up to Lexus levels. I suppose it looks wonderful only in comparison to the LIRR, not in absolute terms. But I'll still stick with the Yugo analogy for the LIRR.
Anyone want to figure out what Amtrak resembles?
[Yes, you're right, Metro North isn't quite up to Lexus levels. I suppose it looks wonderful only in comparison to the LIRR, not in absolute terms. But I'll still stick with the Yugo analogy for the LIRR.
Anyone want to figure out what Amtrak resembles?]
One of those Volkswagens with a Rolls Royce grille?
More like a Yugo with a RR grill on it. Those Amfleet cars in particular ride like crap - even my Harley is smoother (except around 90 or so, where the engine vibes start working their way into the pegs. Nice foot massage). IMHO, Amtrak is a sad excuse for an intercity RR. Even the LIRR, for all it's problems, seems to do better...
Maybe we should sell all our RR's to the Swiss
[Maybe we should sell all our RR's to the Swiss]
They'd laugh in our faces.
Then we could boycott their cheese.
Better still, any Nestle Product
Nah, chocolate's too good.
tHEY MAKE OTHER THINGS BESIDE CHOCOLATE, CARNATION PRODUCTS, BABY FOOD
Some of us are already boycotting them. For the last 25 years La Leche League (the international breastfeeding support organization) has been boycotting Nestle because of their deceptive marketing practices in third world countries, convincing poor, uneducated women that formula is so much better than breast milk for their babies (to the point where they believe that one can of formula mixed with three cans of river water is still better).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Some of us are already boycotting them. For the last 25 years La Leche League (the international breastfeeding support organization) has been boycotting Nestle because of their deceptive marketing practices in third world countries, convincing poor, uneducated women that formula is so much better than breast milk for their babies (to the point where they believe that one can of formula mixed with three cans of river water is still better).]
Researchers who developed formula did a noble work because many women can't breast feed for one or more of many possible reasons. For their babies, formula is a life saver. Formula is appropriately marketed in third world countries for that reason.
However, marketing being what it is, I do not disagree with what you stated above.
Bob
Isn't the LIRR in line for some major investment and upgrading? Will the East Side Access Project, which seems like it will actually be built, make a big ifference by eliminating some of the crowding at Penn Station and the bottleneck at Jamaica?
Anyone know the story behind the old trolley car parked (behind a chain link fence) next to the old bath house on 4th Avenue and President Street in Park slope?
I was over there on Saturday.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, there's been another thread on this within the past week or so. It's owned by the people who own the bathouse; they have a website which was referenced in the other thread.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>they have a website which was referenced in the other thread.<<<
Can you give me the name of that thread, or the website URL? Thanks.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I recently heard a story that they think they will run it along Union Street, although they apparently have never made any official proposals.
The car is also the wrong gage for NYC.
Well I think Union Street still has trolley tracks buried under the asphalt; I photographed some of them sticking out at GAP a couple of years ago; they have disappeared since...
I think the URL used to be www.gowanusclub.com Its been "off the air" for a while now.
The SEPTA PCC wont fit on the Brooklyn tracks, as the wheels are spaced too far apart, 58-1/4" I believe.
I heard some un-substantiated rumors about some wild goings on in that place, which led to their website coming down.
I assume this car is one of the many 2100s or 2700s sold off by SEPTA a few years ago. Two points:
1.
A simple truck swap with a set from a standard guage car would allow the car to run on standard guage track. Motors and brake equipment could be reused, but the track brake frame would have to be altered or replaced.
2.
Just because there is old rail in the street doesn't mean it is useable. When rail is encountered in excavation for water mains and other underground paraphenalia, it is usually cut by the contractor. And even if the rail is intact, is the supporting structure strong enough to support operation? The process of resurrecting a car line is as complex as building a new one!
Advice:
Don't hold your breath.
Gerry
So was anyone on Saturday's ERA tour which included a ride on the old Bay Ridge LIRR branch?
www.forgotten-ny.com
So THAT was them on the NY&A loco on the Bay Ridge branch round about 2:00PM! Myself and two other subtalkers were on a n/b "L" train right about the same time and saw it.
wayne
That was us! SubTalkers included Myself, Thurston, Doug aka BMT man, Bill from Maspeth and Hank Eisenstein (I apologize if I forgot anyone) The train had one old LIRR coach which had NO A/C!!! It was so hot..... The emergency escape windows were removed to help air out the car.... With the almost 150? people, The car was like a sauna! I was lucky enough to get a space in the vestibule.
-Mark
So how was the ride besides no AC? Did you see anything interesting along the route...station remnants or anything like that?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[So how was the ride besides no AC? Did you see anything interesting along the route...station remnants or anything like that? ]
Besides the railroad scale in the Ruby area of the line (Ralph, Remsen, and E. 95th St.) where there is a major auto scrap dealer, the line wasn't as interesting as one would think.
Of course a major highlight was a photo-op stop that was made over at the East New York Tunnel portal with the hi-level platform. The lettering on the tunnel wall is still visible and there are remnants of the insulators of the overhead wires.
(Of course the added photo-op was getting a shot of the Canarsie line above the NY&A train in the foreground. We looked up the El structure and saw a train of slant R-40's with the T/O waving and blowing his horn to wish us well.)
Doug aka BMTman
LOL!!! I saw it, what a pity. No A/C? Oh dear...I would guess it got rather close in there.
As for us, we had a Slant R40, with a lovely RF Window, courtesy of #4423 - and it was rather nicely air-conditioned (although somewhat drippy) :o>
I am glad however you all had a good time, the hot weather nonwithstanding.
Further up the line, I managed about eight shots from #4423's capacious front end of the doomed S-Curve and Atlantic Avenue platforms, along with a couple (from an R40M) of shots of the approach to Broadway Junction.
wayne
I heard about it, but 'twasn't ERA that sponsored it.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
It was sponsored by a group called: New York Connecting Railroad Society. One event a year!
saturday i started on a long planned project of mine to do a complete listing of what lines each subway car is currently serving... i decided to start on the franklin shuttle and spent approximately 5 hours waiting in the heat at franklin ave recording the car numbers of all trains operating on the shuttle... i now have a tentative list of the cars working the shuttle... anyway about 3:30 pm i was stunned when a diesel pulled in to franklin ave with an old lirr coach containing a large number of dehydrating railfans... i wasn't surprised when i noticed doug helping pilot the train into the station... apparently he discovered a long unused connection between the bay ridge branch and the franklin shuttle on an obscure pamphlet that he purchased from arnold joseph...fortunately for all aboard the saturday excursion car, i was selling snow cones from the concession stand that i was operating... the railfans were so dehydrated, that i was scalping cones for $5... after 10 minutes, the diesel pulled out with doug attempting to retrace the path of motorman luciano... i had anticipated that doug would do something like that, and earlier in the afternoon i had changed the speed signs on that notorious curve to 55mph... i am not surprised that no one has posted any details of the trip... how did mark w. survive the crash?
So THAT'S why we sat at Botanic Garden for almost a half-hour!!!
&$%@*&%$¢¥+@!!!!
btw it must have been pretty RANK inside that coach. I wonder if the biffy was working properly - probably NOT! :o>
wayne
At least your train was air conditioned, right?
I think you know where I'm headed with this post, so I'll stop here.:-)
Heypaul! LOL!
You are a demented genius!
Doug aka BMTman
(PS, Mark W. survived the crash because he anticipated my "drag-racing" style at the train controls and donned a crash helment and pads to cushion the impact at the last minute).
;-)
i'm glad you liked my reporting... truth be told, you really weren't piloting the trip... i have been informed by impeachable sources that you had in fact hijacked the train at gun point so as to get to ride the shuttle...
were there really 150 people on the trip? and did they speak much about the hell gate bridge?
[were there really 150 people on the trip? and did they speak much about the hell gate bridge?]
I think it was closer to 200 people on the trip. Due to the heat and lack of ventilation on the coach, there was more talk of hell in general terms than just the famous bridge.
What happened to the union guy who went through the train cutting emergency cords in hopes of securing work for the body men at Coney Island?
the union man who cut all the emergency cords on the fan trip coach was initially in much hot water... talk show hosts called for the death penalty due to the loss of over 100 lives... however, sources from the mayor and police commissioner's office leaked out information that all customers on the trip were known railfans... when this became known, sentiment turned in favor of the union man, and plans were made for a ticker tape parade in his honor as well as presenting him with the key to the city...
What does the key to NYC open? Suc\bway turnstyles, various bathrooms, tool booth gates?
The key I was given prompty opened the GMC Suburban the mayor drives and I was tackled by the auto crime squad. Thanks a lot Paul!~
06/19/2000
[What does the key to NYC open? Suc\bway turnstyles, various bathrooms, tool booth gates? ]
I was told it opens the front door to Bellvue !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, Kevin, I was there, with both video and still camera at the ready.
Thurston was with me for the trip, which -- despite the sweltering conditions was interesting. First, was a lecture/tour of the Hell Gate Bridge at the base of the Eastern tower at Astoria Park. Then it was on to Fresh Pond Yard and a trip down the Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR. The trip was slow and difficult (the former LIRR coach used for passengers was w/o AC). But the photo-ops of the dual GP-4 units was well worth the inconveniences.
In a nutshell: you missed a unique excursion!
(Maybe we can do an abridged walking version?)
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry I missed meeting Bill from Maspeth in person, guess he was at the other end of the X-LIRR coach, BUT it was nice to meet Hank E. for the first time (I've now met over forty of you fellow SubTalkers, and as Hank said on the trip ... I've yet to meet a SubTalker I don't like).
As Doug said, we were given a talk about the history of the Hell Gate Bridge & Connecting RxR in general (there was also a hand out, from Winter '97 "The Keystone" ... "Constructing The New York Connecting") . We also had a couple of AmTrack run bys but from our angle under the bridge & the fact that they use the center track, we couldn't get photos. Doug & I top downed it to the yard a Fresh Pond & got to park under a tree across from the office because we were early (met the guy who's job it is to walk the rails, he gave us a couple of souvenirs). This gave us the opportunity to walk around the yard (we stayed off the tracks, so as not to upset our hosts). I got some nice shots of them making up the train (they used the Wye to pick up the second engine (think they were -38 Geeps). There were also several Alco & MP-15s switches in the yard.
We passed several subway lines (one is just beyond the Fresh Pond Yard (M)). Another high light was the float bardge ramp that has just been restored at the Hudson River end of the line. On the way back the crew was kind enough to make a couple of stops where a number of folks left the train (Mark W. & friend were the last).
My personal thanks to the crew who did there best to make it a pleasant & memorable trip.
Mr t__:^)
During my 8-hour tour of various IND, BMT and IRT lines no major HVAC problems were encountered with the following exceptions:
R40 #4423 (Eastern Division): Air blower working on one side only, air not cooled enough; also dripping condensation from the working blower and around the HVAC unit at the "A" end. Mate #4422 OK.
R42 #4854-4855 ("J", Eastern Division): No working A/C.
Most of the Redbirds (and even the Rustbirds, too) had good A/C. The best Redbird A/C was found in 7762-3, one of the oldest cars. The best B Division air was on recently-rehabilitated and repaired R42 #4918 (wearing the nose of R42 #4726, of course!) - STONE cold.
wayne
Pardon my ignorance if this is a dumb question, but why is there no #8 train on the IRT? Is this number being reserved for some reason, or was this the former number of some now-defunct route?
-- David
Boston, MA
It was used for the Third Avenue El (Bronx).
What mystifies me is...the Third Ave El was torn down in 1973 and ain't coming back...why not use Number 8 for any proposed new trains? I'm told that a #5 express will be called #10 and that the #7 express may be renamed #11; in fact these are on the roll signs. Why not #8? Is it an unlucky number in MTA arcana?
I know why some letters have been skipped...
I -- too much like 1
O – too much like zero
P – pronounced pee
X – letter always has a bad connotation
U, V, W – these leters are caught in between since they worked from the start of the alphabet but since the Z, they're working backwards
8, though, has never had a bad reputation, at least in Western societies...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The #8 is still synonymous with the Third Avenue El line, I think many want to keep it that way, but that's just my opinion.
Maybe they should rename the 42nd Street Shuttle the #8. After all, it is an IRT train and should have a number, rather than a letter. Then, the Rockaway Park Shuttle could be renamed the H train again, so that only the Franklin Avenue Shuttle would have the S designation. I think that would be a good idea.
It is a really good idea, there will have not confusion between 3 shuttles.
This would fit quite well with BMT southern division designation (N Q R, also in the past and perhaps future T) as well as former IND.
Here's a more logical reason I formulated:
When the R-62/62A rollsigns were installed with the new cars in 1983-1986 (when did the last R-62A come in?) there was no 9 either, so they had their reasons for picking colors. The 11 goes with the 7 for whimsical reasons, the 10 is double the 5 and the 8 is the next available number after the 6 so they're green. The 9 maybe goes with 1 because of the US-1 and US-9 multiplex in New Jersey. The 12 and 13 are red because it's just a 2 or 3 with a 1 tacked on. I don't know if there's a 14 but I heard it's green because it's a 4 with a 1 tacked on.
And then in 1989 the 9 was created.
>>>The #8 is still synonymous with the Third Avenue El line, I think many want to keep it that way, but that's
just my opinion. <<<
Yeah, but that el is a fading memory, and few remember it now. That's 27 years ago! Live And Let Die and Smoke On The Water were in the top ten when they tore it down! (Jeez, I'd like that kind of stuff to be back in the top ten, but that's for another website)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Few people ever associated the #8 with the 3rd. Ave shuttle. This number, like the BMT numbers, was sporadically used and almost never shown on subway cars. Perhaps the #8 is being reserved for the Pelham express?
#8 was originally the number designation for the IRT's Astoria line. It also happened to be the marking for the BMT's counterpart. Not long after the IRT number code was implemented, dual IRT/BMT operation on the Astoria and Flushing lines came to an end, so it's hard to say if any Astoria trains ever displayed this marking.
The R-12s which ran on the 3rd Ave. el were ordinarily marked, "Shuttle".
But you'll find a picture of an R12 at 241 St that reads "8-Astoria"!
Whoops... that's an R14 (not an R12) with the 8-Astoria sign. The destination sign next to it says Ditmars Boulevard. But since the R12s and 14s were built before 1949, that may be why 8 is designated as the Astoria line. That may also explain why the 3rd Avenue El's R12s and 14s displayed "Shuttle" or had a blank route sign and never displayed the 8. Of course the MTA could have installed 1967-style roll signs in the IRT cars instad of leaving in the old 30s-style black and white signs.
(The #8 is still synonymous with the Third Avenue El line, I think many want to keep it that way, but that's just my opinion. )
Sound's like the census buruea's decision to refer to people as Hispanics and not Latinos, because the latter is too much like Ladino.
I guess they could make the #6 express the #8 if they wanted too.
I think they called the alternate #1 train the #9 train because 9 is the last single-digit number. They could have called the two trains 1 and 1' or 1a and 1b. Note that parallelism in the following:
I think they called the alternate J train the Z train because Z is the last letter of the alphabet. They could have called the two trains J and J' or J1 and J2.
They just used the last number/letter for the two skip-stop lines in the city to distinguish them from the main route without using up a meaningful letter/number. I do not think there was any other clever rationale than that.
Actually, there are allowances for most of the letters and numbers you mentioned.
The R62A route roll sign includes the following, in sequence:
Red (7th Av): 1, 9, 2, 3, 13
Green (Lex): 4, 4-diamond, 5, 5-diamond, 6, 6-diamond, 8, 10, 12
Purple (Flushing): 7, 11
Grey: S
The R38, R40/42, and R68A route roll signs include the following:
Orange: V
Yellow: W-diamond
White: P, T, U, X, Y
Finally, I once saw an R46 (with electronic signs) marked:
T TO CONEY ISLAND
T WEST END EXP
Currently, there are no OFFICIAL (i.e. public) plans to use any of those numbers or letters. However, anything can happen!
Well, the V has been "officially" reserved for the 6th Ave/63rd. Street thru service since the early 1980's. The old R27's even had "V - Ave of Americas (6 AV) Local" signs, way back in 1985. They also had "21st. Queensbridge" destination signs. When I first founs this sign in 1985, I had no idea what it referred to.
Finally, I once saw an R46 (with electronic signs) marked:
T TO CONEY ISLAND
T WEST END EXP
Currently, there are no OFFICIAL (i.e. public) plans to use any of those numbers or letters. However, anything can happen!
But I can dream... ;-)
When the north side of the MB closes, it seems likely that the West End will go up Broadway again (and perhaps through the 63rd St. connector to Queens). As this switch to the south side will probably be in effect for years, your dream might come true.
Actually, in the original IRT numbering system introduced with the R-12 cars in 1948, #8 was the Astoria line (used briefly until until the Queensboro Plaza junction and Astoria line were rebuilt in 1949) and #9 was the Dyre Ave. shuttle (Dyre Ave. to E. 180th, prior to the through routing in the mid-1950s).
Starting in 1967, maps showed the 3rd Ave. El remnant in the Bronx as #8, but this indicator never appeared on the trains (just as "MJ" never appeared on the Myrtle Ave. El trains).
-- Ed Sachs
The letter "P" was used for a Los Angeles trolley route until the 1950s or '60s. Perhaps people were more serious-minded back then and didn't look for silly puns.
The letters H and K are also still open for use in New York.
The probable reason for not using "P" is its resemblance to "R" if you are looking at an approaching train and have less than perfect eyesight. This migh also explain no "K" or "H".
There have been K or H trains recently, that's why they're not there.
Also, O looks too much like Q in addition to 0.
if the O never touches the Q there is no problem
If the two both intersect with a common third line, then there is.
The P-Pico Blvd. route was the most heavily-patronized streetcar route in Los Angeles. It always had the newest equipment assigned to it, most notably the 1948 all-electric P-3 PCCs, and was among the five remaining routes when service ended on March 31, 1963. And even then, there was some talk of keeping it; however, it would have meant leaving a lot of nonrevenue trackage in service for yard moves.
From a practical standpoint I can agree with you that #8 should be reassigned. Yet from a sentimental point of view I believe that it should stay "retired" for certain symbols evoke special memories and the Third Avenue El was nothing if not memorable. The MJ designation for the defunct Myrtle Avenue El, the J for the Broadway/Jamaica Avenue line and the #7 for the Flushing/Corona El; these numbers and letters denote key elevated lines in New York's history. They have become the stuff of myths and legends and if we are to ultimately to push the issue of mass transit into the forefront of public debate then we must make room for the creation of both.
The destruction of the Third and Myrtle Avenue Els was a catastrophe for the entire city and as such they serve as the perfect examples of "progress" having gone wrong. When people think of #8 they think of something that has been lost and cannot be replaced. Therefore as we retire the numbers of noted athletes whose lives have touched our own let us also "retire" the designation of those lines which have been lost but whose existence helped shape the character of New York.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
I think almost nobody thought of the #8 and the Third Avenue El. The Third Avenue El was just the "El". Most of it was long gone before the #8 came into being.
Also the #8 was originally the Astoria line before 1949, when it became an extension of the Broadway BMT. It resurfaced in 1967 when it became the Third Avenue El. But it was never refered to as the 8. Also in its last days when R12s and R14s were assigned there they almost never displayed an 8. They usually displayed Shuttle. Let's have the 8 back. Having a #7 and a #9 but no #8 is ridiculous. While we're at, let's bring back the H and K.
The "K" would be great, from Canarsie to 57th-6th, relaying on the tail track on the opposite side of the Lexington Avenue station.
The "H" would be the Rockaway Park "A", wearing an alternate sign. This way you'd know at a glance what train was going where.
The #8, why it is the Diamond 6, of course.
wayne
Also the #8 was originally the Astoria line before 1949, when it became an extension of the Broadway BMT. It resurfaced in 1967 when it became the Third Avenue El. But it was never refered to as the 8. Also in its last days when R12s and R14s were assigned there they almost never displayed an 8. They usually displayed Shuttle. Let's have the 8 back. Having a #7 and a #9 but no #8 is ridiculous. While we're at it, let's bring back the H and K.
>>>The MJ designation for the defunct Myrtle Avenue El, the
J for the Broadway/Jamaica Avenue line and the #7 for the Flushing/Corona El; these numbers and
letters denote key elevated lines in New York's history. They have become the stuff of myths and
legends and if we are to ultimately to push the issue of mass transit into the forefront of public debate
then we must make room for the creation of both. <<<
But few if any of those el cars carried the designations "MJ" or "8", so they reallly aren't engrained in the public subconscious...and in any case the public that rode those cars are getting fewer and fewer...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The MJ marking never appeared on Myrtle Ave. el trains. Nor did its old number marking, 11.
[The destruction of the Third and Myrtle Avenue Els was a catastrophe for the entire city and as such they serve as the perfect examples of "progress" having gone wrong. When people think of #8 they think of something that has been lost and cannot be replaced. Therefore as we retire the numbers of noted athletes whose lives have touched our own let us also "retire" the designation of those lines which have been lost but whose existence helped shape the character of New York.]
You're probably overstating the case a bit. I don't imagine that many subway riders today remember the closing of the Third Avenue El in 1955 (or even the Bronx portion in 1973) or the Myrtle Avenue El in the late 1960's. Many of them weren't even born then or might have been living outside the United States. Believe me, it's easy to fall into the assumption that everyone's a railfan - I've done so myself, on several occasions. Yet the fact remains that most people are not railfans by any stretch of the imagination, and are utterly devoid of any sentimental attachment to line names.
>>>>>> I don't imagine that many subway riders today remember the closing of the Third Avenue El in 1955 .... most people are not railfans <<<<<<
When the 3rd Avenue El was closed most New Yorkers said good ridance. They were not thinking about nostalga as they were looking forward to a new modern city. It was considered a renaissance along Third Avenue when the structure was torn down, and property values increased.
As much as railfans loved the old El, it was rickety, and shook when trains went by. The street was noisy and always dark. I grew up there and liked it. When I returned to the area around 34th Street after the El was removed I didn't even recognize the area.
As a rider of the 3rd Avenue El "#8" meant nothing to me and was never in use in the Manhattan portion before 1955.
I doubt not that I am "overstating" it a bit when I assume that most people attach sentiment to rapid transit lines. However I would argue that the Els are somewhat unique. Like the Cable Cars of San Francisco and the Streetcars of New Orleans they are a "living" symbol of the city's urban vitality. I can't speak for most transit buffs but in the thirty odd years I've been exposed to these lines I've spent as much time exploring the neighborhoods beneath the tracks as riding them.
I have learned that even in the most dangerous of communities the El is considered more of a lifeline than a blight. I guess that has much to do with the fact that it has been around for so long and that the so called urban "revivals" associated with their demise has been the exclusive domain of mid-town Manhattan. Everywhere else, from Lexington and Myrtle Avenues in Brooklyn to Third Avenue in the Bronx, their destruction has only hastened the attendant neighborhoods demise. In fact, if walk through the Third Avenue corridor in the Bronx (a few blocks north of The Hub) you will find that the people who live in the area refer to the two-section buses that ply the avenue not as flixibles but as "El" cars. So much for a lack of sentiment.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
06/18/2000
As long as we're talking about number and letter routes that were used, how about the (K)? The (K) originally the (KK) was a BMT via 6th Ave. route that was reused shortly for the 8th Ave (K), which replaced the (AA).
There was no identity problem there. So there shouldn't be a identity problem again.
Bill "Newkirk"
The 8th Ave. K was instituted only 9 years after the 6th Ave/BMT K line was killed in 1976. It's already been 11 since the 8th Ave K was eliminated.
DOES ANYBODY HAVE A COPY OF OFFICIAL NYC SUBWAY AP FROM 1972? THE KK, QJ AND 8 LINES ARE STILL THERE. PLEASE RESPOND THIS POST ON SUBTALK.
There is one on eBay right now, not sure of the current asking price but I think it closes soon. Search for '1972 Subway Map'.
It's item #353859995.
I happen to be looking for any map made before 1994 except for 12/11/88, the original '79 map and the last old style map published in 1978 before the modern came aboard.
And Brooklyn and Manhattan bus maps too
If anybody has anything, e-mail me (click on my handle).
I have both the last "rainbow map" of 1978 (in tattered condition), the first 1979 modern map (with an unusual element of showing the F tain making local stops in Queens) and several pre-1994 maps, including the 1985 map with the note on the closure of the Queens Blvd. and Metropolitian J stations on 4/15, and the elimination of double letters. I also have a 1986 map showing the temporary sixth month Manhattan Bridge north side closure (LOL!), a 1987 map which shows these reroutes as the more permanent changes they were, and the N/R terminal switch in Queens, plus several other maps. Sorry to tease you, but they're not for sale
I've seen that 1985 map with the note about the closure of the Metropolitan Ave. and Queens Blvd. J stations, but don't have it. No big deal.
I have a 1972 map which still shows the E running express in Brooklyn during rush hours; however, it's not for sale.
I have two copies of the Sept. 30 1990 map, one which shows the N going over the Manhattan, the other thru Montague. Summary of 'Service Changes' of one:
Manhattan Br. / B'way Exp Service Restored (Basically, N via Br. and exp. Days, Nights via local and tunnel)
B replaces Q shuttle 8:30PM to 1AM
Queens Blvd:R to 71/cont all times except rush & night, F local bet. 71/cont & 179, Rush hrs, R local to 179 and F exp to 179, Nights, G to 179.
Nassau St: J to Canal weekends, take R or 6 to continue south.
Lenox Line: Nights, 3 replaced by shuttle bus.
This map used colored letters in the changes box.
The other says:
Manhattan Bridge / B'way exp service suspended: Bridge temporarily closed to N trains, they will operate on the R from Canal to Dekalb.
60st. Tunnel Reconstruction: Until fall 1991, Nights / Weekends no N or R from Times Sq. to Queens(boro) Plaza.
Nevins st. Reconstruction: Platforms may be closed at certain times, affecting 2,3,4,5 customers.
This map did not use colored letters in the changes box.
Why do 2 maps for the same date show different things?
One version indicated restoration of N express service over the MB and in Manhattan.
Shortly after that map came out, it was suddenly discovered that the MB needed more work. N express service was quickly eliminated, and the second version was printed in haste.
I have the map which shows N service via bridge restored. In fact, I took a southbound N express to Union Square while en route to the Battery in October of 1990.
There should be 2 months of normal service between the opening of the South and the closing of the North, as I have never been on an N over the bridge, nor have I seen a train on one side while I was on the other.
There was a map showing N express service over the bridge to 34th St which appeared just before this service went into effect (9/30/90) until early 1991 well after this service was suspended (12/28/90). I have it.
I have one, but not selling it. If you need some info about what is on it, feel free to contact me.
Wow... maybe the buyer can scan parts of the map in and share it with the rest of us?
I have that map, or at least the '74, alas I have no functioning scanner and cannot put it up. So I don't have to keep unfolding these things, I want to scan all my old maps up, incl. the 78, 79, 87, 90v1, 90v2, plus the ones with the strip maps on the back, and my 70s bus maps.
I have the tourist version (CBD) and the station listing (normal) version of the first 1972 version. The second 1972 version the KK became the K (among other things). The first version is available as a set.
Greetings from San Francisco. I'm in town for six days for a meeting of the American Meteorological Society :-)
Today I got a chance to ride the F Line all the way to Fishermans Wharf. I've read the articles and seen the pictures, but it was a thrill when the PCC passed the old end-of-line at Transbay Terminal. The line is wildly popular. In fact, since there are not enough cars to serve the line from Castro to the Wharf, there are double-ended cars (Milan, etc.) shuttling from the Wharf to the Ferry Terminal where one can change for MUNI or the California Cable Car. I would have thought this would have taken a lot of pressure off the Powell/Hyde and Powell/Mason Cable Car terminals at the Wharf, but the lines were well over a hour long!
And the first car I boarded on the F Line today was #1053 (ex-SEPTA 2721) in its splendid Brooklyn, NY livery.
By the way, while out on the MUNI, I saw a two-car train of brand new Bredas (#1482 was one I think?) in acceptance testing running on the L/Taraval. They had electronic destination signs, as compared to the roll signs installed on the original order. The signs were readable from a distance, as opposed to those on the Boston Type-8s and being retrofitted on the Type-7s.
Tomorrow, BART.
It's 72 and sunny in SFO.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
Hi Todd:
Our friends just came back from San Francisco and rode BART.
They told me there is a high pitched "whining" noise coming from the trains. What is your impression?
Chuck Greene
They use AC motors. That's the whine.
Thank you for the info!
Chuck Greene
TransitChuckG wrote:
> Our friends just came back from San Francisco and
> rode BART. They told me there is a high pitched
> "whining" noise coming from the trains. What is your
> impression?
That whining noise is just the passengers. Bay-area denizens spend an average of eight minutes a day snivelling about how awful BART is (which suggests that they never experienced, say, the Seventh Avenue line of a quarter-century ago).
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
The Lexington Ave Express before the 59th St Station was a legend.
Nothing felt or sounded like it.
It was even parodied in Mad Magazine way back in the mid or late 50's.
One can only wonder just how high the bull and pinion gears got up to on the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs along that run. Chances are some of the R units had a chance to strut their stuff as well.
I am pleased to hear that the PCC cars have been reintroduced; I assume on Market Street? My first and only visit to San Francisco was in the spring of 1981 and I remember the green and white PCCs quite well. I do know that they were soon replaced by LRVs so this is welcome news. If you haven't done so already, ride every cable car line from one end to the other and help the conductor turn the car around on the turntable. It is one hell of a thrill!
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
>>>>>> help the conductor turn the car around on the turntable <<<<<<
Sorry, regulations no longer allow passengers to help turn the cable cars! Too much liability for injuries such as strained backs.
The F-line began running in September 1996 between Castro Street and the Transbay Terminal, mostly on Market Street, but with a terminal loop at the outer end via Noe, 17th Street, and Market, and at the inner end via First Street, the Transbay Terminal upper-level plaza, and Fremont Street. In March of this year the line was extended from Market and First to the Fisherman's Wharf area, via Market, Steuart, the Mission trolley bus terminal, and the Embarcadero, with a terminal loop via Jefferson, Jones, and Beach, and a short-turnback loop across from Pier 39.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Eric,
Unfortunately, MUNI won't let visitors help turn the cable cars around any more.
But riding the PCCs and other historic cars on the F/Wharves line makes up for that!
A friend who "grew up" at the Seashore Trolley Museum is now a manager of the historic/PCC fleet in San Francisco, and he and everyone (including the non-profit Market Street Railway) have done a wonderful job.
..........what happened to that cal - train & the tracks that warped in the 110 degree heat last week ??
I also rode on those MUNI PCCs on the J line in June of 1981, literally days before the J line began operating in the Market St. subway. They were in pretty sad shape by then and were breaking down left and right; in fact, the car I was on while heading back downtown died en route. We were discharged and the car was towed back to the shop.
Back then, the Market St. subway was closed on weekends, and PCCs covered all five routes, converging on Market St.
Todd, You put a whole new meaning to the phrase "business trip" ... monkey business ? Don't you know that you are NOT supose to enjoy yourself ?
Seriously, there are many, probaly some here, who dread business trips ... good for you !!! And thanks for the report.
Mr t__:^)
If you can do something you enjoy while away on 'business' it makes the whole trip more bearable. Works for me on those almost annual trips to Dayton for the color guard championships. They go to Milwaukee next year - 38 years too late for my liking!
BTW - Todd, if NYC is fun then SFO is HEAVEN for a transit nut! Been there - loved it!
Gerry
Roger that, Gerry! Just spent some time with our friend at MUNI who oversees the historic & PCC fleet for the F/Wharves line. Rode the boat tram too. Pictures for the site coming next week...
I was in New Orleans on business in October of 1994. That didn't stop me from taking in the St. Charles and Riverfront streetcar lines. Not to mention driving across the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway.
I AM LOOKING FOR OTHER TRANSIT UNIIFORMS AND TIE BARS.COLLECTABLE PIECES.I AM A OPERATOR OF THE TORONTO TRANSIT AND WILL TRADE,
due to the math regents this tuesday and wednesday and the demands on my time as a math tutor, i will be unable to be on today's triplex trip... i do have a break in my appointments between 1 and 3 o'clock, and i hope to be selling my special guidebook and visitor's package to coney island by the stillwell avenue exit of the train station for newcomers to the coney island area... it will include a map and detailed instructions for finding nathans, the boardwalk,the cyclone,the parachute jump, dreamland, and the beach... it will also include a 3 hour pass, to be worn on your overcoats, which will give you free use of the boardwalk and beach area...
How about Steeplechase Park and Luna Park?
I know it has been a couple of years since I was at Coney Island but since when do you need a pass to use the boardwalk and the beach?
Or is this another "heypaul" special?
I was down there Friday walking around on and off the boardwalk at about noon and 1PM, alot of police presence but nobody asking me for a pass of some sort.
Maybe on weekends ?
Interesting!
allan... why do people always question my motivation and seriousness?... it's a little known city ordinance that railfans must have a special day pass issued from their mental health providers proving that they have not escaped from confinement...
i found this out the hard way several times when i was stopped... i was later told that the police definitely do railfan profiling, and anyone wearing a tee shirt with a subway line logo, especially the sea beach, will be stopped and forced to submit to a blood test to prove that they have been taking their medication...
if you don't believe me, ask doug how many times he has been stopped when he was wearing his franklin avenue shuttle cap with the pinwheel on top...
You'd better send a special pass to Fred out in California. I anticipated that his only problem in New York would be when he was riding the Sea Beach (that he would have to allow some extra time to get to his destination). I didn't know that he'd have a more serious problem if he showed up in Coney Island with his N train T-shirt on.
shhhhhh.... i was hoping sea beach fred would not learn of the profiling... when he is new york in august, i was planning to make a few anonymous calls to 911 alerting them to a suspicious person walking around nathans...
he's scootering our daisyheads... :o>
wayne
Ask Heypaul to open his overcoat for a real SURPRISE. Heypaul, you have to stop doing this, as I get the strangest looks in the office when reading your posts ;-) ... I think it's the chuckling.
Mr t
Overcoats? In June?!?:-)
Sounds like a variation on the old story of selling an elevator pass to an unsuspecting high school freshman or a shuttle bus pass to a UConn freshman.
Is There A real Pellham 1:23 On the #6; Local Or Express, Am Or Pm?
No there is not.
Weekdays the closes is the 13:26 Sat. 13:22 Sun is a 13:24 Pelham
Midnight 01:22 Pelham
...well there used to be... until Hector Elizondo
came on-screen..
I wouldn't be suprise if the planners at 370 purposely avoid scheduling a Pelham 1:23 or even Pelham 13:23.
Wayne
According to the subway book "Uptown, Downtown," the NYCT deliberately avoids scheduling a #6 train at that time, to discourage copycats. Just like there's probably no longer a TWA Flight 800, or (for the most part) a "Malbone Street" in Brooklyn.
Is anybody out there have any info on the March of Dimes benefit trip with the R-36 Flushing cars on 8/27? Does anyone know how many hours long the trip would be? Reason my wife would like to go on the trip but time always comes up and I had no answer. Appreciate any information.
anybody got a sign pointing to "Upcoming Events"
with a big ole arrow under it????
I believe he wants to know how long it will take, not mentioned in the section. I have no idea, but it seems like it will take a while.
With time for lunch included, I imagine the trip will take 6-8 hours.
-Stef
I also found out that the trip is in fact going to be using numerous loops to turn around since the observation will be placed at the end of the consist. This doesn't leave personnel much of an opportunity to change ends. We will have to pass through Jamaica and East NY Yards to loop around, and pass through Stillwell Av to get from one line to another. How often to you run from the Brighton to the West End route on one train? I imagine that we'll also run through Coney Island Yard at some point during the trip.
-Stef
For clarification: The observation car will be at the end of the consist!
-Stef
Stef thank you very much about the length of the tour. I know my wife will be a lot happier now that she knows how long will be riding the rails. You no how some women can get when there in that situation.
I expect to spend Tuesday railfanning in NYC and area. The A train to Far Rockaway has been a priority for me, but on my previous two trips we didn’t make it because my vote was one of four and other priorities prevailled. Tuesday we WILL do it.
I’ll entertain comments from more knowlegeable (than I) SubTalkers on my proposed route: 7 to 74th-Broadway (the 7 is always a top priority), transfer to E at Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Heights, go to Sutphin Blvd or Parsons (Jamaica Center on my May 1996 subway map) . J to Broadway-Eastern Pkwy, transfer to A (Far Rockaway) at Broadway-East NY. The map on this website also shows these connections.
Comments appreciated. Thanks.
Bob
Between 10 and 3 there is no direct A to Far Rockaway, you must take a Lefferts A to Rockaway Blvd. and transfer to a shuttle.
It's been hard to get a R32 or R38 with a railfan window that goes to Mott Avenue or Beach 116 Street. If you are lucky, you can get an R44 with a little circle that is clear straight through. You can even see the T/O's controls while he operates.
And make sure you get an R38 coming back (you may have to get off at Rockaway Boulevard to get one coming down from Lefferts) and get the RF window for the Fulton Express run. That is quite a ride. In fact, why not take the "A" train all the way up to 207th Street if you get an R38? Only an express run aboard a Slant R40 or a Redbird beats that.
ENJOY YOURSELF and check out Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction station with the yard beneath and maze of tracks surrounding it. The "L" train down to Canarsie and back might be an interesting diversion. An absolutely ANCIENT el (parts dating back to 1906).
wayne
Pick up the #7 on 5th or Grand Central at head end & got to Times Square for two reasons: One look down the trailing tracks (that go all the way to 8th Ave), now stay there for nice view of Manhattan as you head for 74th.
If you get to the Rockaways in the afternoon consider the N33 bus to Long Beach (call LI Bus 516-766-6722 for times, they run about every 1/2 hour, you'll want to wait in the subway station vs. bus stop. Once you get on the bus you'll be OK) In just a few minutes you cross the bridge to Long Beach, hoop off at one of the fine resturants that you'll see along the way OR walk to the beach at the end of the line. There's a fast food place on the board walk (there's also a City of Long Beach bus that will get you there for an extra fare). Now back where you got off the N33 is the LIRR or N15 will take you to N4 on Merrick Road in Rockville Centre (it will bring you back to Jamaica), but I would suggest the LIRR to Penn or Atlantic Ave.
Mr t__:^)
113 images had been add on NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page & enjoy it.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page UPDATED!!!!!!!
I rode the Port Washington line today and I noticed an abandoned rail spur coming off the main tracks right outside the Corona 7 yard. It looked like these tracks went around the yard on the east sdie by the creek, but it was too overgrown. Then I looked at the Hagstroms NYC map (1994) and it shows a rail spur off the main tracks to where the junkyards are now. What was this for?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Thata the old abandoned Whitestone spur. I got to go now and I'll give you some more info later on. Check Bob Anderson's site.
WWW.lirrhistory.com
It was the old Whitestone Branch of the LIRR.
I'm not sure if it ever saw passenger service or not, but in the late 1960's and early 1970's, a lot of LIRR passenger cars went up that branch to be scrapped -- notably a lot of the old heavyweight ex-PRR (etc.) parlor cars.
Budd Company also set up a retrofit shop when the M-1's were in their infancy; apparently there were some builder defects that were being fixed under warranty.
There are no significant branches of the LIRR that have never seen passenger service.
There are no significant branches of the LIRR that have never seen passenger service.
Those tracks are quite old...they belong to the Whitestone Branch which ceased passenger service in 1932! It was originally a private line developed by a rubber baron named Conrad Poppenhusen.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is there any remains of the spur line? From what I believe there used to be a station in Flushing at what is now 35th AVE called Bridge Street. Also someone said that the Cross Island used to use the old ROW. Is this true?
The Port Washington line was developed by the same person, although it was only under the LIRR that it was extended from Great Neck to Port Washington.
Here's a map from 1872 of the entire North Side and Flushing RR which includes the Whitestone Branch
Note that the line labeled Flushing Village RR was a proposed branch that was never built.
Which of the two branches between Woodside and Flushing is the one still used? Any evidence of the other?
Is the second one part of the old New York and Flushing?
Why was the Whitestone called the Whitestone and Westchester? Ambitious plans for a bridge, or was there just a ferry?*
*Note, what is now the Bronx was then in Westchester County and the 6 train now passes through it's former seat, the Town of Westchester.
The more southerly is still used, although the ROW between Woodside and Winfield was straightened out in 1913-1915.
I don't know if there's any evidence of the more northerly branch.
Yes, the more southerly branch was part of the old NY & Flushing. Note Railroad Ave. (now Garfield) in the picture above, which either was, or paralleled, the NY&F ROW.
Just a Ferry, I believe.
>>>>Note Railroad Ave. (now Garfield) in
the picture above, which either was, or paralleled, the NY&F ROW.<<<
Sharp-eyed observers (like your Forgotten NY webmaster) will note that old Trimble and Hicks Avenue, which are now numbered, are remembered in the names of the short streets created when the new cutoff was built in the 1910s: Trimble Road and Hicks Drive, which are now north and south of Woodside Avenue. Also note Rowan Street for 65th: Tilework in the IND 65th Street station points to a "Rowan St"...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Your note should read Eastchester, which is now in the Bronx.
The county seat of Westchester County is 30 miles north in White Plains, the terminal of the NYW&B.
No, it should read Westchester.
And I wasn't talking about where the County Seat is NOW, I was talking about before January 1, 1895.
Not to hijack this thread, but read the line in bold towards the bottom of the ad, near the top of the paragraph. "The passenger coaches are of elegant and tasty design." Tasty? TASTY?!? What were they made of, gingerbread? :^)
Methinks the 19th century ad man who laid out the poster was thinking of "tasteFUL" but went a bit off the mark. An American relative of Mrs. Malaprop perhaps?
Or are we seeing a prime example of the rule that language evolves over time?
Isn't / wasn't there a TastyBread bread factory nearby? :)
--Mark
Where does the SBK store its equipment? Coney Island? And where exactly are its lines? It seems to me that the SBK only owns the mile of track between the Greenwood Yard and the NYCH interchange yard.
BTW did anyone read the article about the NYCH in the July issue of TRAINS?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Technically, the SBK "home yard" for diesels N1 and N2 is 36th Street Yard. However, they are often kept up at the Pelham facilities (as it is the NYCT's diesel repair/MOW Yard). They usually aren't held over at CI Yards unless there is some special needs at the Coney Island shops.
The SBK has running rights over all NYCT trackage. So in a sense the ENTIRE subway system is at their disposal.
However, the historic street trackage of the SBK is now between 2nd Ave at 39th St. through the tunnel portal at 4th Ave. and terminating in the 36th Street Yard.
Next Saturday's tour of the Bush Terminal/Brooklyn Army Terminal areas will feature the SBK yards and tracks.
Doug aka BMTman
Didn't it once run down McDonald Avenue?
Yes, but McDonald was repaved in the early 1980's and no provision was provided for street trackage -- so it was "bye, bye" to McD street-side running.
Also, the Kensington Junction area has low-to-moderate- income housing built on the ROW (under the old Culver El), so there is little remnants of SBK trackage there either.
On Saturday's NY&A excursion, we found out that the SBK connection to Parkville is also just a memory now. The Shoprite supermarket over there has seen fit to expand their vehicle parking all the way up to Bay Ridge ROW with any indications at a rail connection totally obliterated.
Doug aka BMTman
Is there still space on Saturday's Tour??
I guess we should call the TA Musuem...
Lou.....are you really interested? I thought you were going up to Brandford for the weekend?
I have no control over the enrollment on the trip. Call the Transit Museum, 243-3063.
Doug aka BMTman
Correction: The number is 243-8601.
-Stef
Either number will do.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was trying to drum up more people for your tour Sir Doug.
I'll be in Branford Fri and Sat so I'll miss it.
TrAnSiTiNfO's homepage has been redesigned. Stop by and see the changes.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I have noticed a black five pointed star next to door 3 on R32 through R46 and next to door 4 on Kawasaki R68 cars. What ius the meaning of this star? I also saw the star on redbirds
These stars denote the location of the brake cut-out valve (BCO). In case it becomes necessary to cut the brakes out on a particular car for some reason, this valve gets pulled, and the brakes for that car car become inoperative. This is only done with passengers aboard in cases of extreme emergency.
06/18/2000
Today I rode the first of three Nostalgia Specials using the D-Types 6019ABC and 6112ABC. 6095ABC was stored in the museum and was not used today. There was a rush to get the D's presentable since the elements have taken their toll on the bodies exteriors. 6112 looked very nice since it have the most work done. 6019 was painted in a rush manner since timw was of the essence.
The interiors were not painted since they really didn't need it. I rode the "Special" to Coney either last year or the year before and 6112 was a sorry sight, it looks much better.
Since this was Father's day, the turnout was light except for those Dad's with family in tow. The D's raan very well and the highlight of the trip was the center track express run on the Culver from Ditmas Ave. to Kings Highway.
Were any SubTalkers there? There are still two more runs this year at July 9th and 23rd. The fare is $25 for Adults, $10 for children under 17 and free for children under 3. For imformation call the NY Transit Museum at 1(718)243-8601 and ask for the Education Dept.
BTW - The routing was 8th Ave subway from 59th St/Columbus Circle to Hoyt Schermerhorn with a stop at the Museum. Then to Lafayette Ave to change ends and to Jay St. Boro Hall to change ends again and following the (F) to Stillwell Terminal. Because of that fire in the tower at Bergen St, the express tracks cannot be used and are very rusty. We waited for a (G) to leave Fourth Ave. and took the express tracks all the way out to Avenue X. The return trip was Culver to Jay St. and 8th Ave. to 59th St. That's all folks !!
Bill "Newkirk"
You know I was there.
-Mark W.
P.S.
How did you like the ride on the Wonder Wheel?
06/18/2000
The Wonder Wheel was great! Those moving cars are like a mini roller coaster within a ferris wheel.
Bill "Newkirk"
I made the trip yesterday. It was great, and the weather not too hot either. The train rode like a champion. The sounds, the speed. And, as always, the look on people's faces is absolutely priceless! One of the most touching sights was when the D's were nearing Neptune Ave on the Culver, a group of little leaguers stopped their game and ran toward the el structure, some pointing. The looks on their faces! Many of the adults that were down there appeared just as thrilled. Good show!
Joe Caronetti
I saw the ballplayers too, I thought it was pretty cool! One of my favorite things to do is watch the reaction of people when they see the old train. But, I think the trains whistle made a few people on the platforms deaf, it was so loud!
Peace,
ANDEE
What was the train signed up as, if it was displaying any signs at all?
I was on it as well. I believe it was signed up as a "1 Brighton Beach"... A picture I took is located at www.zdeno.com/images/nostalgia/ntrain2.gif (This images should be up around 11 AM today (6-19-00)
-Harry
4,1 3?
One of the side signs said Boston, I saw them roll into Columbus circle at the end.
They must have been fitted with Boston signs for that movie they made which was set in Bahston.
That would be Spike Lee's Malcolm X...It was not set in Boston just one scene in the beginning of the movie. They did it to save money as most of the movie takes place in NYC
Peace,
ANDEE
I stand corrected. Weren't the Triplexes in that movie lettered with some sort of Boston heading?
Yes, they were. I think Kevin Walsh has photos on his site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's actually a couple of them on here. The film was Malcolm X and the train only appears for about 2 seconds during the opening scene.
-Dave
Not only was it set in New York, the scene with the Triplex's was somewhere on the Myrtle Ave. Line, I believe Myrtle-Wyckoff. If I am wrong, please correct me.
06/21/2000
[Not only was it set in New York, the scene with the Triplex's was somewhere on the Myrtle Ave. Line, I believe Myrtle-Wyckoff. If I am wrong, please correct me.]
I believe you are right, on that curve also. The strange part is the D-Types didn't run on there own power, they were horsed by SBK engines!
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes I was there, I was one of the Transit Museum people. Most enjoyable. Only met Mark W. Will be on the next 2.
Peace,
ANDEE
I was there, and had a great time. I wish it was always such a fast trip from 59th to Jay street!
I was there along with Howard Fein and Derek "D-Train". Thought I saw Bill Newkirk - wasn't sure if it was him though. Sorry we didn't run into any of you other guys. Did anyone else speak to the New York Times reporter that was there?
-Dave
I saw the Times reporter. Where were you? Do you still look the same as your picture at City Hall. I was looking for you based on that. Sorry I missed you.
Peace,
ANDEE
It was fun, but I was exhausted by the time I got home! I saw quite a few people dozing on the return trip. Of course the speed, groaning traction motors and metallic smells were all highlights.
Most of the trip was on IND territory, so it was a little historically incorrect, but the sounds brought me back to when R1-9s plied the route. The Triplex seems to labor a bit less. While there was the classic acceleration groan, the train didn't have a conniption on inclines the way the 1-9s used to in their waning days. There was a distinct lack of shaking and sputtering as well. If anyone overhauled the motors, they did a great job!
It was a little disappointing that we went both ways on the Culver, which is only a trure original BMT line on the elevated stretch south of Ditmas. If we were to return to Columbus Circle over any other line out of Coney, we would have had to go over the Manhattan Bridge; maybe there was a prohibition over taking the Triplex over the Bridge- could it be weight?
I believe I spotted Mark W, who hosted the December Polo Grounds Shuttle trip. Dennis Linsky was also along, and there may have been a few other familiar faces from previous Subtalk trips.
There was one woman who thought it was a regular train right before we (finally!) left Coney. It took several people to explain to her that it wasn't your everyday 'F' train. Being told it would cost her $25.00 to ride finally convinced her.
This is my first posting on my home Imac through Aol. Quite a letdown from my Gateway at work, which uses Microsoft. The screen's a LOT smaller; I can barely see what I'm writing! Well, here goes- I hope this works!
iMac on AOL? Sounds like a masochist's dream.
Inviting to hackers
[The screen's a LOT smaller; I can barely see what I'm writing!]
Two things to help your viewing:
1. Select a larger font size. Change the font itself or its size by going to the EDIT menu and selecting PREFERENCES. A different font such as "Geneva" may work better for you; its a little boring, but very easy to read;
2. Change the screen resolution.
To do that:
Go to the APPLE Menu; select CONTROL PANEL; then select MONITORS.
If your Monitor is now set at 1024 x , experiment with 800 x or 640 x. These settings will produce larger images on your screen, since the resolution is less. Unless you are dealing with graphics production, this should not be a problem.
Experiment until you get the image/font size that is best for your eyes. CanÕt do anything about the 15 inch screen, however.
I'll be glad to answer any other questions. Email me privately if necessary.
wsteil
No restriction at all for the D types on the Manhattan Bridge. In fact, We went over the Manhattan Bridge and down the West End line when we returned to Coney Island Yard after the trip. The reason it went both ways was that we made the stop in the transit museum and also did a drop off at Jay Street on the way back.
-Mark
Solution: DON'T USE AOL!
I was there along with Dave and Howard it was a great day for a rail fan trip.
D-Train
Did the train run down 8th Ave? If so, I wonder how fast it was going on the downhill run to 42nd St. 200+ tons of steel thundering down that incline.... scary thought.
Yes, it went down 8th Ave.
Peace,
ANDEE
Did it slow down at all through 42nd St? You would think those monsters would just keep right on rolling along.
You're right, it thundered right thru 42nd.
Peace,
ANDEE
I sure hope the T/O blasted the horn.
Was anyone startled on the platform?
Did anyone on the train yell "GANGWAY!!!"?:-)
Or better yet, "Runaway Triplex!"
People on the platform(s) were seen holding their ears b/c of the loud horn.
Peace,
ANDEE
Now if they run another one for Halloween and do the boarding on the lower level at 8th Ave that would realy be a "scary thought", i.e. dark and damp station. I'll be happy with Columbus Circle for my 7/23 trip as I'll have my grandson in tow.
Mr t__:^)
Tell me about that lower level. I remember using the underpass portion of it on June 27, 1968, and it spooked me.
They closed the underpass some time ago. I believe the tracks are officially out of service (I could be wrong). Fare control has been reconfigured so that the underpass is no longer needed.
Peace,
ANDEE
True & Anoumouse said that they have now cut the tracks to the lower level :-( I'm now even more glad that I went on that tour that included a visit there.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, the entire mezzanine is now part of the paid fare zone. Years ago, this was not the case. Back then, only the portions which included the stairways to the platforms on either side of the mezzanine were in the paid fare zone. On that particular day, I accidentally led our contingent through the turnstiles, only to have my sister say, "This is DOWNTOWN; we're headed UPTOWN!" Oops! Whereupon we made our way to the northern end of the southbound platform and used the underpass, reaching the northbound platform to find both a CC train and an E train at the same time. I explained we needed to take the CC, which we did, boading the last car. Both trains left at the same time, and I watched as the E train took the turnoff to the Queens line, ran right next to us for a minute or so, then descended downwards to its platform at 50th St.
The "CC" was running express?
Peace,
ANDEE
No, actually the E was. This was back in 1968, and in those days, E trains ran express in Manhattan during rush hours and continued onto Brooklyn. In addition, I saw the R-38s for the first time that same morning. There was a Brooklyn-bound E train of those cars sitting in the station on the express track as we reached the platform and started out trek to the underpass. The Queens-bound E train was an old timer.
Then I'll see you on the 23rd for sure.
I'll also be attending the run on the 9th.
--Mark
The lower level, unfortunately, is no longer connected to the rest of the system. The track connections were removed last year when the stairways were cemented over.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I finally got to ride the Redbirds. Pretty spectacular for an old bird.The paint is coming off of some of them, but it is still a great tour of the Bronx.
I've noticed the new houses in the East Tremont area; nice comeback.Parts of the "L" line aren't so lucky. Livonia, Sutter need some work and and the neighborhood is a little intimidating.
Wayne, Thanks a million...
No problem! And we got plenty of Slant R40s, even got one on the "B".
The 'hood is what it is; one block good, the other not so good. Eventually things will turn around, I am sure, if they aren't already doing so. Sutter Avenue is a tough one, very industrial. The station needs work, but should retain its original look. The new housing is a VERY encouraging sign.
wayne
I went by the location of the fire in Brighton Beach and wondered how there could not have been any stuctural damage to the "EL". Is this the case or have they repared it already?
There was no damage done to the EL. Currently the only problem it effects is the re-routing of the B1 and B68 buses and the closing of the stairs to the street on north side stairs. The fire occured when the A/C on the roof of the building caught fire. The fire spread throughout the building and burned everything. Luckily, the fire didn't spread to the neighboring building nor the elevated structure. The roof also collapsed. The fire burned for over 6 hours (Around 4:30 P.M. to a little after 10 P.M.) The D Trains ran on the express track by-passing Ocean Parkway Station. At around 7:00 P.M. the smoke got really heavy and the D Trains reversed to Manhattan at Kings Highway. I live 2 blocks away and the entire neighborhood was filled with smoke during the fire. Uh oh, I've went too far. I'm off-topic. I'll stop now. :-)
Some have requested my memories of running Rl-9. It's hard to share whatever incidents can be remembered 25-35 years after the fact but I'll add an installment each day if I can. I'll start with saying I was glad to have the years I did on them (l967-early 77) as a motorman, 2 years prior as a conductor. Having watched the IRT fleet I loved as a child vanish, liking the BMT AB and D types but being raised in the Bronx not that close to them, the R1-9 was the last of the old generation. [of course I never dreamed as a l2 year old that I'd some day run the Q's but I did for 2 years] They had the sounds and visual appeal of an era before they were new, they were actually antiques when new, at least from the R6-9..modern times had arrived on other rails. Today I'll just say they were right at home on the IND expresses, they could highball alonmg with anything newer, braking was fast..when you had a good set you really felt like you were railroading. [not that there weren't bad ones but they weren't alone in that area]. When transferred to the Eastern neither the L nor the M to Broad was much of a thrill, but the J..sometimes we had one Jamaiaca to Coney Island..was quite nice. They didn't put their best out but riding over an elevated line like the J on them was almost like we had gone back in time 2 decades, the old familiar sounds on a line that was nearly all el. Next: Central Park west by R9.
I remember the R-7a and R-9 on the Eastern Division lines, particularly the "KK", "LL" and "M" shuttle, and rode AB cars at least once on the "LL" and "M", and they were similar, but different enough. They sounded somewhat the same, at least the motors did. The brakes and air noises on the Standards were different than the R-7a and R-9.
I rode R-7a/R-9 a few times on "QJ" as well; #1540 got hit by lightning in Cleveland Street station on August 1, 1971. Gave us all quite a scare.
wayne
Wayne,
You have to say more than that. What happens when lightning hits a subway car? How about some details?
I was aboard a Jamaica-bound "QJ" train made up of R-7a/R-9 cars and we were travelling in a very severe thunderstorm. As we were pulling out of Cleveland Street there was a VERY loud report and the train stopped short. The lights went off then on again. I was in the fifth car. It felt like the train tried to move. The conductor went to the rear and the train operator followed. It looked like there were some people shaken up in the rear of the train. The conductor came back and opened the doors in the fifth/sixth car manually and we were asked to get off. It was a blinding rain and lightning was still dancing about. Everybody was huddled under the shed. In the rain the crew was inspecting the gates and back end of R-7a #1540, which had a large scorch mark at the corner of the car; the cab window was blown out and the headlight beam was blown up. The lights in the car were out. They pulled the train out a few minutes later and we got on the next train. This happened on Sunday August 1, 1971, about 5:30 in the afternoon.
wayne
Wow!!! That must have been some experience, and it happened two stops from my old home station. You didn't say, but I imagine that it was an eight car train, and 1540 was probably the last car.
Did you notice if they ran the train into the center track on Crescent St, or did they take it all the way to Jamaica?
I wish I had been there, but after some thought, I think I'm just as glad that I wasn't.
Thanks for the details!
Wayne has had enough experiences on those old timers to write a book.:-)
Let's see, an E train dying between 42nd St. and 7th Ave.; a sick passenger on a crush-loaded F train; a QJ train struck by lightning, just to name a few.
This sounds like another one of those you-had-to-be-there incidents.
I saw the train laid-up past Crescent Street with the storm door of the last car open. BTW the train following the one involved in the mishap was an R42, 4800 series, ice cold, so cold in the pouring rain that the windows were totally fogged up.
wayne
The basic traction motor sounds were similar to a point that at first you don't notice differences. Being around as long as I was you did notice differences; the IRT was probably the loudest; the R9's were close; the AB's were a lot softer sounding; seemed the bodies had more mass, less resonance, and with one smaler motor in each truck (l40 HP each) as opposed to the Low'v lets say at 2-200 HP in one truck..the other truck was a trailer. The R9 were similar. Braking indeed you did notice a difference: the AB (and old IRT) had a much slower release, therefore a longer exhaust sound and less frequent, you could let more partial releases off withan R1-9. Other than thtat the AB, Low-V and steinway, D types, and r1-9 all had the same schedule brake AMUE, with ME-23 brake valves and UE5 control valves.There were other railroads that used it too...DL&W for one. Glad I wan't on the train that got hit by lightning!
I can vouch for the difference in motor sound level between the BMT standards and R-1/9s. The former were indeed quieter, not that it mattered to me. What I'm curious about is the main difference in the braking systems between the two car classes. The R-1/9s would give off their trademark "tch-sssss" magnet valve sound several times as they slowed to a stop, depending on the number of applications while the BMT standards would go "tchhhhhhhh" just as they came to a full stop, once only.
Only once did I ride on a BMT standard (on the Canarsie line in 1968). It was nice and quaint. But I don't share your nostalgia for the R1/9s. Back in November 1967 with the Chrystie Street connection, I was shocked to see them on the Brighton D, mixed with the R32s, the then class of the entire subway system. I wouldn't mind if those ugly old beasts were still being run on the all-underground lines C, E, and R, and stayed underground, like on the original IND, where they belonged.
Nothing was quite as ughly as an ill-maintained bunch of mixed R-6s on the "E" or "EE" line. I thought they were fun on the "EE"; I liked to ride them between Cortlandt and City Hall to watch them waddle round the "S" curve, hissing and creaking as they went. They were miserable in the summertime on the Queens IND, especially if the fans were out and the heat was on in error.
wayne
My feelings were reversed. I loved the R-1/9s, but didn't care for the BMT standards. Everyone has their own taste. The funny thing is, after Chrystie St., I hardly ever saw the old timers on the D; it was almost always R-32s. OTOH, I was in the city on Saturdays, and chances are most of the old equipment was being rested on weekends.
I can think of some weekends I worked the D-Brighton and LUCKILY had an R9 for at least half my shift. One occasion..3/4 of the day. Quite pleased to say the least. My first solo run in passenger service was the D out of Bedford Park...on a Saturday, lead motor 455. Nov. 67.
Hmmmm. I might have ridden on a train of yours back then in that case. I used to go to Saturday school in Brooklyn, and if we weren't going home right away, we would head over to Herald Square for a bite to eat at Woolworth's and then to Macy's. After that, we'd head back to Port Authority on a D to 59th and an A to 42nd. If there was time, I'd take a joyride up CPW. Almost missed my bus once because of that. The last prewar D train I ever rode on included that express dash. I had to get off at 125th St. due to time constraints, and did so with extreme reluctance.
HERE are the R-1 and R-4 I have spotted on the "D" between April of 1969 and March of 1971:
Note; MOST of the other R-1 and R-4 cars were spotted on the "CC" line
and a few early on were on the "AA". Some high-number (700,800 series) R-4 were seen on the Jamaica lines, primarily the "EE".
R-1
119,138,276,293,306,325,333,353,380,382
R-4
400,403,406,409,410,412,416,421,425,437,
451,455,457,458,459,463,467,479,481,490,495,
508,513,515,518,524,530,532,533,535,541,547,
553,560,561,564,569,571,573,580,587,
605,606,613,616,617,618,619,621,622,626,636,639,641,643,645,648,
652,656,659,662,666,668,681,693,695,698,
700,704,710,713,728,736,752,757,761,762,764,774,778,780,799,
801,804,810,833,859,880,893
wayne
Thanks. You might be interested to know, but you might already know;That until some time in l967, perhaps part of Chrystie st, and also with delivery of R38's that the number series you mention were in Queens. The Concourse and Heights had all the R6's, also 150-299, 815-899, l400 to about l475. All the other numbers were in Queens.
You saw 799 and 801, but not Seashore's 800. Bummer.
IIRC, you rode on an all-R-4 D train in September of 1970.
I'm surprised there were any R-1s left at all after 1970; however, as has been noted, there were exceptions. #100 was still running into the 70s, wasn't it?
I did see #100 on the D at least once, 1967-8. With delivery of the R42s in 1969, there were fewer R1/9s on the D. They disappeared late in 1972 or early 1973 with the arrival of the R44s (R44s #260 and up were originally on the D). I found nothing impressive about the R1/9s, to say the least, and if one happened by on the D I would wait for the next train of R32s. It seemed to me that the R1/9s accelerated poorly. There was a time, I think around 1978 (not sure about the date) that there were some R10s on the D. Other than the noise level, they did not seem faster than any of the modern equipment.
Yes, by 1969, I hardly ever saw any old timers on the D. Their numbers did diminish significantly with the arrival of the R-32s. I was just the opposite - if an A or D train of R-1/9s pulled in, I would jump for joy. IMHO, their acceleration wasn't that bad, and they could certainly move when got up to speed. My ears were always riveted to any and all of the marvelous sounds associated with them.
I think you know how I feel about the R-10s, so I'll leave it at that. I did ride on a D train of them once in the late 70s. It looked very strange to see them carrying D signs.
Unfortunately the R1-9 were in disrepair for much of their last l0-l2 years or so. Their design acceleration wasn't as fast as the R10 and up but a good R1-9 was great. Just a thought..I'm a dinosaur and grew up on prewar equipment hence my feelings. On another thought car 100 survived into the 70's because it was one of the museum train.
You're absolutely correct - the R-1/9s became sort of an unwanted stepchild once the TA began ordering new cars. Any maintenance they did get was minimal.
R-1 100 reposes today at the Transit Museum. I always take a moment and sit down on one of its seats or gaze through the storm door window and reminisce, if I'm not giving the trigger boxes a workout.
I did ride a whole R-4 "D" train on September 12, 1970 (lead motor #561, with #662, 580, 648, 656, 587, 547, 652, 668, 700); we were diverted to the express track, but the train was weak and weary (even the fans spun lazily) and did not make such good time.
On November 29, 1968, I caught an R-1/R-4 mix on the "B" (lead motor #264, with 342, 302, 184, 582, 428, 642, 262, 275, and 411 at rear) the which shot through the tunnel from 36th to Pacific at a pretty good clip; perhaps somewhere around "G" above high C. The train, however was in HORRIBLE condition, all kinds of rattling, loose noises, among other signs of disrepair. The Slant I got last Saturday on the "B" (#4312) was pretty impressive, once we got into the downgrade between 9th and Union under a whole Green, we were an easy 45MPH, perhaps a bit more. Too bad todays' equipment doesn't use spur-cut Bull Gears s/o we can tell how fast it's going without having to peep into the cab.
wayne
How did you feel about looking through the railfan window when the train didn't have headlights? I used to love it. Nothing but tunnel lights, with I-beams reduced to silhouettes. You couldn't even see the rails. That sensation alone makes me wish I had ridden on the R-1s and R-4s more often. They didn't come up all that often.
I agree about the spur-cut bull and pinion gears. It would be great to have them again.
Steve;
I have never ridden on a train with headlights, and when I received Salaam's #7 tape, the underground railfan window portions looked wierd to me. Before the headlights you usually could follow the course of the tracks by the reflections of the tunnel lights, but you would have to cup your hands against the glass to eliminate the reflected light from within the car. And you had to keep a sharp eye to see track workers on adjacent tracks or in the wall cutouts.
Tom
Where was that D train diverted to the express track? Sept. 12 fell on Saturday in 1970, so it could have been in the Bronx or Brooklyn.
My subway riding plummeted in the fall of 1970, as the Saturday school I had been attending moved out to Richmond Hill (Holy Child Jesus School), and my father drove us there every week. We wouldn't have made it on time going by bus and subway.
(our lovely old "D" train of Sept 12 1970)
I'm not sure - It arrived at Kings Highway ON the express track. It was just about twilight, maybe around 7:30PM. Yes, it was a Saturday.
We ran express all the way up the Brighton. We passed a stopped train on the local track at Avenue "J", I don't remember what kind of train it was - may have been another R-4. I DO remember its lights were out.
wayne
What pitch did that train manage to get up to? I remember seeing a B train deadheading past 34th St. at F# below middle C, about 15 mph, I'd have to say. That's the same pitch I remember hearing at 23rd St. on the few prewar northbound trains I rode on along 8th Ave. Believe it or not, the R-10s were usually even slower.
Wish I could explain the difference in braking systems. As it stands I don't have the answer. But as I mentioned the R1-9 had a lot quicker application and release; on a good train a 2lb. reduction would get the shoes against the wheels; I used an average of 6-8 lbs for service stops. On an AB I'd set asbout 5 lbs, then draw off to about l0. About the same reductions I used on freight trains. When moving on and AB you probably couldn't hear a release..the final release as any release was a mellow sound as you describe..the R1-9 had a sharp and quick release and you'd let a very little go each time; hit it just right all the air would be released when you stopped and no lurch.
hey ed... thanks for your memories of the r9... could you also talk about being conductor on the old equipment... what it was like to operate standing in between the cars... that has always seemed to be a really dangerous job... a lot of the people here may not seen conductors working that position on the trains...
I used to watch the conductor assume the position on the R-1/9s and R-10s and always got a big kick out of it. When the R-7/9s began operating on the Canarsie, we would be in the middle of the train on the Brooklyn-bound trip in the same car as the conductor, and he would climb up on the step plates as the train was about to stop.
On the R1-9's the conductor would bop it loud to close the doors and you heard the bop all along the platform.
Yes, you could hear those trigger caps from quite a distance. Even now, when working the caps on 100 and 484 at the museum, they sound every bit as loud. I thought the trigger caps on the R-10s were much quieter.
I used to get a kick out of the way a conductor would often hit one or both caps once or twice while the train was pulling out of a station before climbing down from the step plates.
Sometimes that was to look important.. most times it was either to say hi to a brother trainman on another train OR to attract some chick's attention!
You know, I used to do the same thing when I worked the R10s and now that you bring it up, I don't know why; it was just an impulse. Maybe it was the sign of another station conquered.
I'll add the conductor job to my list.
Many times I wished I was a bit older - so that I could've enjoyed they R-9's. I did have a chance to ride them several times in their last days on the CC, but no express runs unfortunately.
Wayne
I barely caught a couple of express runs. They were always on the F express out of Jamaica on a Sunday night (returning from a family barbeque). There was one time I caught an E express (uptown along 8th Avenue). It only skipped two stations (Spring St. and 23rd St.). Then I had to get off at Seventh Avenue to catch the D.
Also, I lived on the D line in the Bronx from 1966 until 1977. I have never seen an R1-9 operate on the D. Most of the time I rode the subway back then was on the weekends. According to the pictures in nycsubway.org, they seem to have operated on the D until 1973. Were they only operating rush hours only (between 1970 until 1973). Also, exactly when did the TA stop operating the R1-9s on the D and can anybody remember which class of car was the last (ie. R1, R4, R6, etc.).
Can anybody answer the same question for the A.
As far as I remember, the after the "D" changed from the Culver to the Brighton they used mostly blue doored R32's although there was an occasional R1-9. (Although the Franklyn Shuttle, which is technically part of the Brighton had BMT Standards) However before the "D" switched from the Culver to the Brighton it was exclusively R1-9's. As a little kid in the late 50's-early 60's my subway riding was mostly with my 2 grandmothers, one lived near the Sea Beach and the other lived near the Newkirk/Nostrand Station so I rode mostly BMT or IRT trans in those days. However I remember a great trip my father (who mostly drove & rarely used public transit) took us on to see the Mets at the Polo Grounds!!! He parked in a lot at 179th Street, Jamaica (we lived on the island) and took the "E" to 7th Av and the "D" to the Polo Grounds. All R1-9's, on Queens Blvd AND Central Pk W!!!! The ride was so great I don't remember anything about the Polo Grounds or the game!!!
By the time of the Chrystie St. connection of November, 1967, and even from September 1965, the Franklin shuttle was almost always stainless R11s. I rode through Prospect Park continually from Sept. 1965. I never saw a BMT standard on the Franklin shuttle from that time.
I remember riding them from thelate 60's as a kid with my mom riding the QJ/KK/M and L LINES
Likewise, I never saw a BMT Standard on the QJ and I frequented the Brighton line very often between 1967 and 1969 on weekdays. Nor did I see a Standard anywhere on the southern division from late 1965 to 1969. Perhaps you saw it during weekends, when the southern terminal of the QJ was Broad St.
AFAIK, the BMT standards were used on the rush hour Broadway-Brooklyn local, aka JJ, later the KK, as well as the Canarsie and Myrtle Ave. M lines. I saw a train of standards on the center track at either 111th St. or 160th St. on the Jamaica line in March of 1968 which was signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn Local.
They also appeared on the Culver and Franklin Ave. ahuttles during the late 60s, but not on any of the other Southern Division routes. The only line I ever rode them on was the Canarsie from 1967 to 1969.
I can vouch for Jeffrey's statement regarding the D. Prior to Chrystie St., it was all R-1/9s. At that time, the R-10s ruled on the A, and the R-38s were on the F. My first express run along CPW was on a prewar D on Nov. 24, 1967, just before the Chrystie St. connection opened. The following month, I saw my first R-32 D train as it glided into 34th St. After that, I probably rode on two more prewar D trains; I just didn't see them that much on that line.
It was an interesting experience to stand at 81st St. and compare the various express trains as they went by. A prewar D train would be wailing away as it passed, while a train of R-32s would streak past effortlessly. The R-10s were pure thunder and blazes.
Since most of the prewar D trains I ever rode on (and there weren't all that many) didn't have headlights, I can surmise that R-4s held down the fort in later years. Most of the R-1s were gone by 1970.
Reminder: July "Field Trip" to Boston & Kennebunkport to include a ride on Seashore's pair of INDs, R-4 & R-7A.
Or visit Shoreline in October to ride their R-9. I've riden the later several times, she makes all the right noises as she glides threw the weeds to Short Beach.
Mr t__:^)
According to my records, the last R-1/9 class cars to run on the "D" were R-4s; they ran on the "D" at least as recently as March of 1971.
At that time, the bulk of the "D" cars were R-32, with some R-42s. The R-4s were in addition to the others.
Wayne
Confirm Wayne's info on R4's being the last on the D. I was a D train conductor in much of l965 and half of l966. What was your stop? I grew up in Highbridge, went to Taft.. my stop then was l70 on the D or Woodlawn. Lived at Tremont and Walton 65-68, rode the D most of the time since the Low-V's were gone from the IRT.
I think a few of R-4s petered out on the "CC" at the very end of their careers. Then there was the one that got itself renumbered as an R-7a and assigned to Eastern Division...
wayne
There were several: wish I remembered them all l458 and l593 were really R4's.
Would this have been in 1976. Was that the last year the R1-9 (R4s) operated on the "CC". Did they ever make it out to Rockaway in regular service on the "CC"?
No it was earlier than that, probably around 1970-1971, maybe as late as 1972. A number of R-4s (not sure of exactly which numbers) were still fit and they got renumbered with R-6, R-7 and R-9 numbers for service in various places after then. The rest of them went to scrap. I have a number of brass property plates from various R-4 cars which I acquired in 1970-1. There were a lot of them on the scrap line at 207th Street then.
wayne
I'll bet they kept their original storm doors with the large single window. Did any R-4s without headlights get renumbered?
To my knowledge they didn't get to the Rockaways on the CC. I heard word about that they wouldn't make it. I don't know why not, they did in the E service as well as long runs to Coney on the D [a few years previous] and F.
From 1966 until 1972, my stop was 167th Street (lived on Clay Ave between 166th and 167th Sts.). From 1972 until 1977, my stop was Tremont Ave (lived on 178th Street and Anthony Avenue).
Geez, had it been a few years earlier we'd have almost been neighbors. I moved from l937 Walton in Sept.68 and moved to Brooklyn. As for your prior address I once- in the summer of 63 - had a girlfriend who lived on l65th between Clay and Teller. Perhaps 37l E. l65 st.
My best memories of the R 1/9s is of playing hookie from school and riding on the "E" or "F" express in either direction between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. The best veiw was of course up front. If you were lucky, during mid-day the trains weren't very crowded and if the doors were cocked open, you could turn around and look back through the cars, and watch the train snake its way along as it raced to the next stop.
The trains cooler, with the doors open, the windows open, the ceil open. I think its called celesteral roof {slats that pop open} and the five or was it six hugh fans whamping around and around.
Yes, you missed out on something special back in time.
If heypaul excepts the offer to be appointed Minister of Transportation for the Roswell Rapid Transit, you might, just might be able to grovel and curry favor for a trip back in time.
Good Luck
avid
what is the appeal of the moaning and groaning sounds of the old equipment? is it just because that was the way they sounded, and we have that sound as a memory? or did the sound have a human quality of laboring under load that we could identify with? there is something very primitive about the sound that immediately attracts my attention...
after years of fruitless psychotherapy with some of the best minds in psychiatry such as dr. sidney fields and drs howard, fine and howard, i have been unable to put my finger on the reason... from the messages you post, i know that many of you have been under psychiatric care for most of your lives... i was just wondering if any of my fellow subtalkers have explored this issue in their own psychotherapies?...
The best moaner groaners are the R44s making the switches when the Rar rock "A" fisrt alights upon the Rockaway Branch after leaving the Liberty Avenue "EL". The Tracks a smooth from newness and less noisey due to the open outdoors. The moans and groans are reminisant of the tightening of a rack in the dungen of a Spanish Inquisitor.
Half of the missery is getting there.
avid
To me, being the musician that I am, the assorted R-1/9s sounds were music to my ears, especially the spur-cut bull and pinion gear sounds. My ears latch onto such sounds. Your tape brings those cars back to life.
When I first rode the Strafford cars on the P & W 27 years ago, the sound and feel of the rumble was reminiscent of the Broad Street Subway and bridge trains of 20 years earlier...a pleasant sound and feeling akin to the pedal notes of a pipe organ.
yeah... the broad street cars were the all time groaners... an interesting comparison to a pipe organ.... i have some of the philly broad street sounds on my r-9 tape...
Trolley cars at the orange empire museum in peris california ..with & the old PE and los angeles pcc & pre world
war 2 cars make the same musical sounds including the air compressor sounds ...and the electric motors sounds etc..
like a old sewing machine making beautiful musical music etc... wounderful to hear ....
Quite simple: the sound of POWER. Guess that was the main reason in my childhood that the R10's didn't impress me. They didn't have that sound. I liked all those oldies but nothing sounded as tough as the IRT. Glad you're a fellow 3 Stooges fan..are you?
ed... you said it was the sound of POWER that made the old equipment special... but suppose it had been a high pitched whine... i think that the low groaning sound goes deep to something primitive...
you asked if i am a 3 stooges fan?... absolutely... the influence of the stooges and abbott and costello on my thinking has made me what i am... i really believe that, and i have been consulting with sid fields, noted lawyer and overall renaissance man, to sue channel 11 in new york city for all the damage that both of those shows did to me...
Paul;
The real culprits were the operators of the Laff Movies on 42nd Street. They ran the the Stooges, Abbott & Costello, Marx Bros. & Ritz Bros. continuously, and such a short walk from the Times Square station.
Oh, but the R-10s had unique sounds of their own. The compressors, for starters. No other cars had that rapid compressor sound except perhaps their IRT cousins, the R-12s and R-14s. Their doors were second to none - the fastest doors in New York. And then there was their sheer brute speed and the accompanying thunder. Do you know the hymn How Great Thou Art? Well, one of the lyrics is "..and I hear the rolling thunder..". The R-10s were just that - rolling thunder.
Believe it or not, I could hear some gear noise as they accelerated. Not nearly as loud or deep as on the R-1/9s, but there was some.
OK Steve you win. You've had me thinking; I won't let the R10's or any other Rtype take the crown from the R1-9 but I've thought about all the other SMEE cars including the R32, whether or not I Liked them you're right the R10's [if you had a good one] were the fastest of the SMEE's [R10 thru 42]. I can give them other plusses. If nothing else I appreciate your positive feelings for the R9's.
I'll tell you which cars gave the R-10s a run for their money: the slant R-40s. I rode on an A train of slants up CPW on Easter Sunday, March 26, 1978, and let me tell you, it SMOKED. Those cars develop a deep-throated rumble as they get rolling, both then and now.
The perfect announcement at 59th St. in those days would have been:
"This is an A express, and I do mean EXPRESS, to 207th St. Our next stop will be 125th St. in about, oh two or three minutes. Step in, watch the closing doors; they're fast, man, and enjoy the ride."
Shhhhhh.... Listen..... (wait to load)
Sarge, you goofed again! You can wait until the cows come home (or the 2nd Avenue Subway is in service) and the wonderful Low-V sound will never come through. It has taken me about 3 minutes to type this, and not a peep. (The actual file exists in my Media folder. It's a joy to hear.)
It's called a CLERESTORY roof.
And those lovely old fans, there were two kinds: the flat-bladed ones with the fat motor housing and the flat, round hub with the big "W" stamped on it (for "WESTINGHOUSE"), and the wavy-bladed ones with the smaller motor housing, and the pointy-nosed hub stamped with the "GE" script logo embossed on it. These GE fans were found only in the Pullman-Standard-built R-6-2's, the pride (and, later, the bane) of the "E" and "F" trains.
Ever have one of these beasts as a dark car?
wayne
Two R-9 memories:
Spring 1976. Riding Culver Line towards Coney Island on my way home from school with a friend. Jokingly said "wonder of the front door is open", then tried it and (oh my gosh)it slid open. Enjoyed an open-air ride into Stillwell Ave. Shades of the 3rd Ave EL in its heyday.
Fall 1975: R-1/9s on the D train along the Brighton Line with what must have felt like 10 dead motors. Train could not get above 15mph even on the straightaway between Sheepshead Bay and Newkirk Ave. Train was eventually discharged at Allantic Ave for fears that we wouldn't have made it over the Manny B.
That train is STILL on its way to Concourse Yard :)
--Mark
So those geezers were still running on the D as late as 1975, eh? I figured that by then, the ones which were still around on the IND were used only during rush hours on the CC and E.
Two R-9 memories:
Spring 1976. Riding Culver Line towards Coney Island on my way home from school with a friend. Jokingly said "wonder of the front door is open", then tried it and (oh my gosh)it slid open. Enjoyed an open-air ride into Stillwell Ave. Shades of the 3rd Ave EL in its heyday.
Fall 1975: R-1/9s on the D train along the Brighton Line with what must have felt like 10 dead motors. Train could not get above 15mph even on the straightaway between Sheepshead Bay and Newkirk Ave. Train was eventually discharged at Atlantic Ave for fears that we wouldn't have made it over the Manny B.
That train is STILL on its way to Concourse Yard :)
--Mark
I have noticed that this line no longer has roll signs but instead uses fixed destination signs ( R40-up format) between glass (plastic?) panels. Does this mean a dedicated fleet for this line
How do you know the difference?
the "box" is gone, no hole for the crank to change the sign!
I don't know about Roll Signs but the 8 R68 cars are dedicated to the shuttle line since they will be the only r68's not married into four car sets. During rush hour two 2 car sets run on the line, another set sits as backup at Prospect Park and the other is at CI Shops for maintenance or storage.
There are 9 cars held for the Franklin Shuttle.
I posted about this a short while back, under the heading of something like R68 #2917 has no rollsign box. But before, the car it was paired with (2924) had 2 boxes. Are all the boxes gone?
Yep, all the ones I saw had flat signs; no rollsign box.
wayne
this morning on an r38 c train there was a broken sign that some body regretted vandalizing because he lost his swiss army knife in the process
Also this morning i saw a r62a with spray paint on 2 of the inside ends on the unit
Sometimes the 3/4 Ton Crew just has too much FUN. On Sunday it was Doug's turn to drive (Saturday it was mine to the NY & Atl Bayridge outing). We picked up Dave S. & Stef on the way and were joined by Lou S. & son.
We arrived early, on purpose, so we got to open up, & pull some cars out. I was given the test run to Short Beach & back. Dave went along for the ride & got his first chance to pull poles & throw switches.
After this FUN we were ready to get dirty on the R-17. Just then the Dispatcher came by to ask who was going to help him with operations this day, it seems they were going to be a little short handed. Well none of us were dressed for the job (don't strip paint in suit & tie).
Doug was about the same size as John & John just happened to have a extra pair of pants & shirt in his car (guess this isn't the first time this has happened). Anyhow Doug went behind a box car where he got caught on film by a couple of early rail fans changing into his monkey suit. While Doug was doing his Ding Ding thing Dave & I were stripping the end of the R-17 and Lou & Stef were replacing the broken window. Lou III gave his dad a present and went over and pestered Jeff the rest of the day. At the end of the day we got to have some more FUN putting the cars away. It was my first time moving a car over the mass of switches in the back of the shop & loop, also had to "Back Pole" one of the Safety cars into a siding (some folks from a British museum were being given the "Royal" treatment, so I was laying up a car for them to operate down the line with a "pilot").
Next week there's a tour of about 230 coming on Sat., so the other guy from Brooklyn, Lou L, and eye will be doing a lot of Ding Dinging. Meanwhile Doug has a tour of his own scheduled, in Brooklyn of course!
The only sour note was the bumper to bumper that Doug got stuck in on his way home (summer has arrived).
Mr t__:^)
REDBIRD IN MURDER ATTEMPT
I get a laugh out of the TA's explanation as to why the door sensor didn't work - the boy's foot might have been too small. Comforting, huh?
Yeah right, The 142s can't come soon enough. Those old cars are becoming a hazard.
Peace,
ANDEE
Another reason to start counting down to the R-142 debut date.
Once was on a Redbird on the 7 and saw the doors close on somebody's bag, we moved about a foot until the conductor realized the problem.
I have a fondness for the old cars, but they do have to go.
What did we do in the good old days??? Did people not have to contend with the same problem? Trying to open the doors when closed, something will give. You; not the car!
I was on the 7 once and my bag got stuck in the door. It caused an almost four inch gap and we still pulled out of the station. Luckily, I was in the train and my bag didn't hit anyone or anything before the next stop.
-- Kirk
I once saw a guy slide a door open 3 inches on a R-62 on the 6 line. Shouldn't the train be stopped automatically or something?
I did that when my coat was caught in the door. I was inside, I wasn't about to wait for the next station.
The rear doors of buses have a brake interlock which prevent the bus from moving if the rear doors are unlocked. I don't think trains have this feature.
BTW, I vaguely remember riding on a TA bus with my father when I was 4 or 5 and the bus suddenly stopped very short. I think the lights and engine went off too, but I'm not too sure. The bus was an RTS, probably early-mid 80's model. Does this describe what happens if the rear doors unlock while the bus is already moving?
Which brings me to an interesting bus related question. Can a bus move with it's front door open? I once saw a QS RTS with it's front door open and moving, bus was OOS.
I know with the Orions, they won't move if the front door is open.
It is a good feature to be able to move the bus while the front door is open. Since by law you can't move the bus with pax in front of the white line I think it is okay. Anyway how else can you check a RR crossing without opening the front door.
Well, that is only for school buses, but they are supposed to come to a complete stop.
But lucky me, besides getting my bag stuck in a Redbird door, a bus driver closed the door on my leg once as I was boarding a bus and he pulled away from the curb. Luckily my screaming bloody murder and my pounding on the door alerted him to my condition and we only traveled a few feet.
-- Kirk
As long as we're off-topic & talking about the rear bus door safety brake interlock I'd like to tell a humorous story (well, not to the person involved) that my brother told me. He's a MSBA (Long Is Bus) dispatcher. Years ago when he was a driver another driver was parked on Roosevelt by Sterns in Flushing. The bus was empty and he wanted to move up a little. He put in in gear but when the bus wouldn't move he realized the back door wasn't securely closed. So he went back to hit the door to close it. The only problem, he forgot it was still in gear. So when he hit the door it lurched forward hitting the bus parked in front of it!!! (Maybe a reason to bring back standard shift!!,just kiddin..)
Or an interlock requiring a minimum of, say 90 lbs., sitting on the driver's seat.
It is possible to pry the doors open a couple of inches after they've closed.
The Redbirds NEVER had the door sensors installed on them!! The TA thought it would be a waste since they are to be retired. Of course they DID NOT say a word about that!
-Mark
Yeah, I thought that article was weird by saying the doors on the cars have sensors (!) We're talking 1950's technology on those cars!
Dumb reporting.
Doug aka BMTman
I think they meant "indication".
I thin kyou're right: no edge sensors, just an interlock which is supposed to keep the brakes from releasing until all doors are locked. Of course, given a little play in the mechanism and the thickness of the rubber edges, you can probably lock the doors with a 6 inch thick object stuck between them.
I knew it! Many times on the 2 and 5 I see someone stick his hands in the door, the train moves and scares the s**t out of him. One time, someone said 'they shouldn't take off like that'. I responded, 'You shouldn't stick your hand in a closing door like that.' He realized his ignorance.
"I see someone stick his hands in the door, the train moves and scares the s**t out of him. One time, someone said 'they shouldn't take off like that'"
serves him right
Lets see. A baby stroller caught in the doors at Grand Central on the 7. A teenage girl at Union Square on the 4. And this incident. Maybe Al O'leary should be charged with attempted competence in stating that the "foot was too small for the door to notice".
He was just telling the truth. The doors will lock closed around any object less than a certain thickness. The real question is how thick is thick enough to stop the doors from locking.
Recently the same thing happened in ATLANTA & with the transverse cabs and OPTO in which many of you out there
love to death etc............This proves the VALUE of a CONDUCTOR who saved this boys life & if this was OPTO only
the horrible death would have happened ..........the hell with OPTO......!!!!!!!!!
If the conductor had been paying attention he would have noticed and buzzed the train operator to stop. They're supposed to watch for anyone being dragged for a few carlengths before going back into the window. Then again, a lazy C/R is better than no C/R at all. I imagine it must be hard for them, having to deal with questions from passenegers, and of course those who enjoy spitting at and slapping the conductor as he goes by. Most of the time there is no incident, it must seem tedious and useless to keep checking at every single stop. After a while, they probably end up thinking: Who's stupid enough to let their kid (or something else of importance) get caught in the door anyway?
The Reports show the Conductor was paying attention because he pulled the Emergency Brake. If the Conductor gave a Long buzz instead of Pulling the cord that would have been Inproper Procedure with Disciplinary action being taken. Unless there is sometime I am missing you can not blame the Conductor. However lets say this was a R 142 and the Sensors failed and Someone pulled the cord the train would have not gone in Emergency intil it stoped at Nevins Street. When you pull the Emergency Brake on the New R 142 it will not be activated intil the doors open at the next station stop. To stop the train your would Have to tell the T/O by Intercom and the T/o would have to put the train in Emergency. By that time half the train would be out of the station.
I would expect some sort of mechanism for the conductor to stop the train as well.
-Hank
He does, the same you or I have in the car. He has a brake cord to pull in the cab and it looks like he did. Both the C/R and the Pax could have pulled a cord in this case.
I'm talking about the R142. The message I replied to implied that the R142 would NOT have a emergency brake that would activate immediately, but would instead hold the train at the next station. Only the TO would have the power to stop the train. I'm hoping that the conductor will also have a way of stopping the train.
-Hank
Imagine the surprise of the public the first time someone gets hurt because the train just kept on going after the cord was pulled. One dead passenger andthey will change it back to the way it is today.
On the R142 the CEV works immediatly until the train moves 600 feet out of the station, after that, it won't go BIE until the next station stop. Makes no sense to me.
This is not a good idea. If your allowed between cars what if a pax falls between them after the 600ft? No way to stop the train, you better hold on for dear life.
Yes thats what it comes down to.
And if he fell between cars now? By the time someone noticed and pulled the cord, and the train stopped, the person would be just as dead as if the train didn't stop till the next station.
Want to bet they might keep the storm doors locked on the R-142s?
As of now I'm told that the door between the cars will be Unlocked on the R 142's.
Why? Do they lock them on the R-62?
Of course, you're obviously just making comments on a false belief on your behalf of R-142's inferiority because of your emotional attachment to the Repulsive Rustbirds.
This proves the VALUE of a CONDUCTOR who saved this boys life & if this was OPTO only
the horrible death would have happened ..........the hell with OPTO......!!!!!!!!!
I know I'm going to regret answering you but the post is too silly to let pass.
Let's see a 10 car train = 500'. The Conductor is 250' from either end of the train. The boy was dragged 250' before the Conductor realized that the kid was being dragged. And you have the chutzpah to use that as an anti-opto argument. I must be missing something. Perhaps it is you that is missing something like a logical thought process. Yes the hell with opto and the hell with stupid arguments too. BTW: Where does the irresponsible grandmother fit into your grand scheme of things.
& why are you defending OPTO as being so dammed safe with your chutzpah that boy would be dead mr missing everything ...!!!
HELLO, when would a REDBIRD be in OPTO Guys??
OPTO trains have the door sensors.
what opto train has a door sensor ?? ......like when the woman was dragged by the marta train door recently??
All NYCT cars except for the redbirds, whether OPTO-compatible or not have a 'Door Obstruction Sensor' system. the system is so sensative that it will keep the train from moving if the belt from a trench coat or the cuff of a pair of trousers gets caught in between two closing door panels. However, the door sensing is done electro-mechanically and can fail (as any such device can do).
They are not that sensitive, I assume the sensor is linked to the little red light that comes on after the door is moved from its closed and locked position. On every car type (except 110) I have moved the door several inches after it is closed without the light coming on, the train still moved. More often than not, after school someone gets something caught in the door, like a strap from a bag or part of a coat, and they have to wait two stops before they can get it out.
Unless they've added something new since l977 (newest at the time R46) there were no door sensors. There was spring slack on all types including the R9.. enogh to pull most things that could get stuck in the doors and not affect door indication signal. Of course even with this a fatality can still result. GUESS WHO AND HOW LONG AGO There were cars with door sensors? Have a can of red dog on me if you know.The original IRT equipment: High-v. Low-V, etc. There were reversing doors that automatically reopened, and walking doors that would stop when somebody hit them..that rubber about 6" wide. The conductor would have to press the closing button again to close. Unfortunately these feautures had to be removed because of excessive delays. My shop friend told me trains would come in 30 min. late during school dismissals. A s for present times so what';s a little more risk with OPTO. We cut down on more overpaid labor [union] then have more money to hire more managers or waste money on foolish things. NO that is not my opinion.. just a rotten matter .
Did the TA boast that a "credit card" in the door would keep the train from moving?
I saw that on some news reports.
Salaam, I'm definitely not defending OPTO. I'm being extremely critical of your thought process. You are opposed to OPTO and to support your argument, you choose an incident where having a conductor produced exactly the opposite result you would want to show. Is the door bell ringing yet, Salaam? If I were looking for an example to support an argument about the added safety conductor's provide, I surely wouldn't use one where a conductor didn't see a 4 year old being dragged.
It shows the public opinion of Transit. People have been killed by private automobiles, by taxis, by airplanes and they do noy say "planes, cars, taxis are dangerous.Let's get rid of them".
I have a lunch relief job and every night I ride the trains to/from each deastination on my schedule. I see numerous people holding doors or even trying to pry the doors open to let someone else in! I tell them it is dangerous and most just cuss- some see the light and stop!
The penalty for door holding needs to be more severe and strictly enforced- maybe they can use police academy students/auxilary Police/ Traffic enforcement to watch station prone to door holding and issue summons galore.
One stop where they should have enforcement is 51 Street Northbound during PM Rush Hour. I seen people do the dumb thing to catch a Train. Like put a Hand,Foot, or Briefcase to stop the train from moving. Some even try to force the doors open after there closed.
Those people will never learn. When I was working as a Platform CR there, I was giving the CR on the train the OK to close when someone ran up from behind me, under my swinging hand w/flashlight, got hit in the head by said flashlight, and still tried to bull their way on the train.
Where does the irresponsible grandmother fit into your grand scheme of things.
The grandmother was injured trying to extricate the boy, according to the article.
Now for an embarassing questions:
There are supposed to be sensors that are designed to detect when a door is closed. Did they fail by giving a false positive? How often are they supposed to be tested? How long had it been since this particular mechanism was tested? What were the results of the last test?
These Redbird doors and all previous double leaf doors dating back to the R1 had a rubber cutout at the bottom to permit people to extricate a foot, when the door was closed. Why was this safety precaution removed? Was it not possible to retain such a cutout and still provide adequate sealing for air conditioning?
I think there are plenty of unanswered questions for NYCT car maintenance without trying to scapegoat the grandmother.
There are supposed to be sensors that are designed to detect when a door is closed. Did they fail by giving a false positive? How often are they supposed to be tested? How long had it been since this particular mechanism was tested? What were the results of the last test?
The Redbirds don't have any door sensors.
I don't know the answers to your other questions.
--Mark
The Redbirds don't have any door sensors.
Are you implying that there is NO sensor that determines whether or not the doors are closed? Such sensors are required for MUDC operation.
The redbirds have a series of contacts on every door operator and door panel to determine the position of the door and insure that it is closed.
What kind of tests are conducted to make sure that this mechanism works as designed?
There are several go-nogo gauges that measure the door position and micro-switch settings to insure that a guardlight won't clear as long an obstruction exists. There is also a test called the enunciation test to insure the electrical integrity of the circuit. These tests are performed on every door at every inspection cycle.
Roughly, how frequently does this inspection cycle occur or what is the outside limit as to how long ago such a test was likely to have been conducted?
If for some reason a car always gave false positive (i.e. doors closed), is there any easy way that the conductor to realize that doors that should be open are indicating closed?
Routine inspection is conducted on either a 10,000 mile or 66 day window, whichever comes first. No excuses are accepted for inspections outside of the window, especially on the high side. As for false clears on doors, there is a device known as the Panel sensing switch. This switch is open until the door is within 1/4 - 1/8" of fully closed. It is independent of the other circuitry and will indicate an open panel even if the door operator is telling the rest of the door circuits that everything is ok. This would be especially critical if there were a broken piece of door linkage.
Thanks for the information. I may have misstated my last question or misinterpreted you answer. Let me try again, in a slightly different way.
I believe there is are indicator lights in the conductor's and motorman's cabs that go on, when all doors are closed. Is there a similar indicator for ALL doors OPEN on a particular side?
CR indication is lit when all door panels in that zone are registering as closed. If the CR Indic does not illuminate, this is a sign that there is a door open somewhere on that half of the train - forward or back from the CR position. By observing the illuminated Guard Lights on the car body, the CR can determine where the open door is. A visit to that car will show an illuminated Fault Light on the inside of the car next to the unclosed door. Either allowing the door to close or cutting the door out of service will extinguish both the Guard and Fault lights. If they do not go out, the train should be taken out of service.
When the CR does have indication in both zones, he will turn his door control key to the run position. This will, in turn, illuminate the TO Indic, giving the train the OK to move. It is possible for the TO not to get indication evn though everything is closed. In such cases, Control MAY authorize the TO to proceed using the Bypass Button. This will ONLY be authorized on doors modified with the Door Obstruction System - the sensors everyone talks about. This procedure will NEVER be authorized on Redbirds: the train will be discharged first and then run light to the yard.
.......how about the irt- r62s???
Thank you for your explanation. From what you wrote, the only way to determine if all the doors indicate that they are open would be to walk through the entire length the train and observe each fault light.
This would imply that any door sensing mechanism that gave a false indication of closure it would not ordinarily be detected until the next inspection at an average of 33 days away.
You also raised some other questions. Is it the turning of the CR's key to the run position that gives the indication to the TO? If this is the case then is there any interlock to prevent the CR from turning his key to the run position, when the CR's Indicator is not lit?
No no no. The motorman's indication only comes on if all the
side doors are closed, AND the conductor's MDC key is turned to
the running position, AND (some less relevant items, such as
the train is charged up, the reverse key is in forward or reverse,
and the electric portion switch shows there are no cars coupled
ahead of the motorman).
I see what you are saying about a cycle checking circuit with the
door indication switches. However, the system rarely fails with
the switch failed closed such that you'd get a closed door indication
with the door wide open. Usually, through play in the linkages or
other mechanical creapage, the switch fails and closes a few inches
too soon. There is the additional, independent safety of the door
obstruction sensing system which has been installed on some cars
(perhaps all cars with half-panel door operators by now). It uses,
I believe, an optical sensor which detects the absolute position of
the door panel, as opposed to the normal switch which is mounted on
a sequence cam attached to the door linkage.
No no no. The motorman's indication only comes on if all the side doors are closed, AND the conductor's MDC key is turned to the running position, AND (some less relevant items, such as the train is charged up, the reverse key is in forward or reverse, and the electric portion switch shows there are no cars coupled ahead of the motorman).
Thank you. I thought as much but I just wanted to be sure.
I see what you are saying about a cycle checking circuit with the door indication switches. However, the system rarely fails with the switch failed closed such that you'd get a closed door indication with the door wide open. Usually, through play in the linkages or other mechanical creapage, the switch fails and closes a few inches too soon. There is the additional, independent safety of the door obstruction sensing system which has been installed on some cars (perhaps all cars with half-panel door operators by now). It uses, I believe, an optical sensor which detects the absolute position of the door panel, as opposed to the normal switch which is mounted on a sequence cam attached to the door linkage.
Actually, I was thinking along slightly different lines. Go back a couple of posts. I hinted at an additional indicator light in the conductor's cab that went on when all the doors were "not closed". At present the indicator is only all doors closed or the light goes out, when the first door is "not closed".
Suppose there were two indicator lights as I described. There would be a delay between the time the conductor threw the open doors switch and the time that the "all open" indicator went on. This delay would be proportional among other things to the distance the door leaf traveled before the microswitch opened.
A slow response would most likely indicate that a door sensor was out of calibration and likely to give a false "closed" signal when closing. The conductor would probably learn the rhythm pretty fast and be able to report problem more quickly than waiting for the regular inspection. If the conductors could not learn such a pattern, then there would be another application for the 555.
A major wiring change (adding a trainline) would be required for
such a check circuit. I don't think it would work too well. There
are a lot of variables that affect door opening speed such as the
setting of the door open speed potentiometer, the lubrication status
of the door tracks and linkages, battery line voltage, and gravity
(when cars are stopped on a grade...yes it makes a difference. At
some stations gravity is enough to start to pull the doors closed.
They move an inch or two until the "door fully open" microswitch
changes state and then the door motor kicks in and pulls it open
again. The resonant frequency is a few Hz.)
I don't think it would work too well. There are a lot of variables that affect door opening speed such as the setting of the door open speed potentiometer, the lubrication status of the door tracks and linkages, battery line voltage, and gravity (when cars are stopped on a grade...yes it makes a difference. At some stations gravity is enough to start to pull the doors closed. They move an inch or two until the "door fully open" microswitch changes state and then the door motor kicks in and pulls it open again. The resonant frequency is a few Hz.)
These factors with the exception of gravity, describe mechanisms that are poorly maintained. One of the cardinal principles of automatic control theory is that identical mechanisms should behave identically. Deviations from normal behavior are generally modelled as noise and are minimized by design and operating practices.
The gravity effects would be eliminated by using servos, instead of open loop motors.
Granted, such automatic control requires tighter operational specs than appear to be currently in place. That's the price for replacing gate cars - which did not have a single incident of trapping body parts in their 80 odd years of service.
Sounds like you need a double failure at least to get all doors close when they are not. Smart!
Precisely. The NYCT door systems are designed against a single point failure. This means that you'd need two independent faiures to get an unrquested opening or false indication.
Now, if the conductors could only remember to open the correct side every time, . . .
Although I'm sure your remark was made with tongue slightly in cheek, the problem is a serious one and also not a local one. I've been on LIRR trains where doors were opened where there was no platform. To their credit, NYCT RTO mandated conductors to 'point' at the conductors boards before opening the doors. This is supposed to insure that the train is fully platformed before a door opens. The idea was an adaptation from one of the Japanese subway systems where the driver is required to 'salute' the leaving signal before starting his train. Obviously, given the state of current technology, a fail-safe interface between the train and the station could be devised so that the doors could only be opened on the platform side despite improper operation by the train crew. Perhaps this wil be forthcoming in the future. However, the TWU and the conductors should also be mindful that each time a conductor improperly performs his/her duty, it strengthens the argument for their elimination.
Just a little "add-on" to your explanation, Steve. When I was in Tokyo a few years ago, I asked about the 'salute.' It was explaned to me that the point is the 'symbol of safety.' One only salutes (points) when he/she is satisfied that everything is safe, and the operation (whatever it is) may continue.
Several times at Linden on NJT they will open the doors to the entire train even though only 6 cars fit. This also happened often when Rahway was shrunk to 4 cars during the rehab. Then again, with low platform stations they just leave the doors open all the time, my dad often gets on his morning train (and off his afternoon train) at Kingsland under Ridge Rd's tunnel-like overpass, which is often under 6" of water and has never had platform. Then again, Kinglsand's "platform" is so short that usually only 2 1/2 cars fit at a time.
As for opening the doors on the wrong side, they used to do that when they had to perform any wrong-railing in areas with low platforms so the people waiting on the other side didn't have to walk in front of the train to go around, or run up and down stairs. This was before the fences were put up.
[an adaptation from one of the Japanese subway systems where the driver is required to 'salute' the leaving signal before starting
his train.]
Ah So!
I wondered what it was they were doing (and sying it out loud too, I might add) every time they started the train.
Elias
Redbirds have a door interlock connected to a signal light relay (the device that replaced the assistant conductors). When the doors are closed and locked, the slr passes indication to the CR for that zone. Unlike the cars that have been modified with the door sensors, this system results in some play between the doors - usually about 2 inches. However, occasionally the system does fail and gives indication even though the doors are not all closed (sometimes the failure is amazing - in my case I had a 300 lb-ish man standing in the door and the indication light lit. Needless to say that train went out of service).
How often are they tested? Theoretically at every stop. As aresult of this incident, someone will get to check records on this carto find the answers to your other questions.
Why was the notch removed? Here's my story --
Picture a curved station with the only entrance at one end of the platform,eg 110 St/Lenox southbound. The CR can't see the first car because of the platform curve. Someone runs into the station and tries to stick their foot in that little cutout, the foot gets stuck, the doors are closed, the train moves and WHAMM!!
In reality, she tried to get her foot in the REMEMBERED cutout, and instead, put it between the car and platform. The doors were already closed and the TO was getting ready to move. Someone pulled the woman away from the train -breaking her ankle in the process - and chaos ensued. Due to amazing good luck on my part ( when I first came out as a CR, I made the dispatchers at Flatbush and 241 St note in the station log that I couldn't see the entire platform) I was cleared of the incident and monitors have since been installed.
Why can't we scapegoat the grandmother? Who gets off a train while travelling with children, before the kids get off? Unfortunately it seems thta stupidity is only punishable if you have money (or are perceived to - remember that the TA's money is really yours and mine).
Why can't we scapegoat the grandmother? Who gets off a train while travelling with children, before the kids get off?
From Section 239 of the NYS Rapid Transit Law:
...no train on such railroad shall be permitted to start until every passenger desiring to depart therefrom shall have left the train,...
From Section 240 of the NYS Rapid Transit Law:
...and when the car has stopped and a gate or door has been opened, the car shall not start until such gate or door is again firmly closed.
Unfortunately it seems thta stupidity is only punishable if you have money (or are perceived to - remember that the TA's money is really yours and mine).
From Section 241 of the NYS Rapid Transit Law:
Any elevated railroad corporation that shall fail or neglect to comply with or enforce the provisions of the two preceding sections, shall upon the petition of any citizen to any court of record, ... Nothing in this section shall relieve elevated railroad corporations from any liability under which they may now be held by existing laws for damages to persons or property.
It would appear that it has been NYCT's obligation to make sure that ALL passengers wishing to depart a car are permitted to safely leave it. It would appear that it has been NYCT's obligation to make sure that ALL doors are completely closed before starting. It would appear that every citizen of New York State has been given carte blanche to take legal action to ensure that every Rapid Transit operator fulfills these obligations. The fact that NYCT is a public benefit corporation does not shield it from such obligations.
We ran through this discussion the last time a child was
dragged (about a year ago, a teenage girl).
Small feet can get caught in doorways. Because of the pliability
of the rubber bumpers on the door edges, it is possible when
trying to pull the foot out to allow the rubber to bend away from
the plane of the doors enough that the door panels can come within
tolerance of the full closed position and give indication.
I'm not sure what you mean about cutouts. Some door panel designs
have a small section at the bottom where the width of the rubber
bumper increases and forms a trapezoid.
Concering your subsequent posting on the NYS rapid transit law.
Are you sure that law is still on the books? Does it apply
to subways or just elevated railroads?
I'm not sure what you mean about cutouts. Some door panel designs
have a small section at the bottom where the width of the rubber bumper increases and forms a trapezoid.
That is what I meant. All the Redbirds were delivered that way. The design was changed during the overhauls that air conditioned these cars.
Concering your subsequent posting on the NYS rapid transit law.
Are you sure that law is still on the books?
According to the NYS Senate website it still is.
Does it apply to subways or just elevated railroads?
That's a question for the courts to decide. Certainly, the sections that I cited describe operations that are not unique to elevated vs subterranean railroads.
Without overly defending the antiquated door systems of the Redbirds: Those cars ae a minimum of 36 years old. They were never meant to be state-of-the-art. They were a basic rapid transit car - which they were. The door system is adequate to insure reasonable safety but that assumes a reasonable amount of care by the people who use the system. In our litigeous society people have forgotten that they share in some measure in the responsibility for their own safety. When I travel to the city with my grandchildren, I take them by the hand when entering or leaving any train. My 8 YO granddaughter may not like it but I am responsible. This grandmother acted irrisponsibly. Now the taxpayers will pay.
i was standing in the line waiting for afternoon meds, when the guy in front of me turned around and revealed a plot to release the redbird, which has been charged with attempted murder of the tourist boy, from rikers island, and return it to service on the #7 line when john rocker is in town...
Where is Rocker's Island and who is this John Riker?
John Riker ... great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandfather of Commander William Riker of the Starship Enterprise, second in command to a certain Jean Luc-Picard.
Rocker's Island .... insufficient data to pinpoint location. GIS systems are down at the moment.
--Mark
I understand that they are finally going to fund the 2 Avenue Subway project, (Preliminary studies I guess) to be extended all the way to downtown Manhattan. Does anyone know if they are still going to have this line connect with the "F", (second ave station) and the "D","B" & "Q" (grand street station)? And is there any more talk on the idea of extending the "7" all the way to the Jacob Javits Center or even to Jersey?
See today's issue of Gotham Gazette, www.gothamgazette.com, for extensive discussion of these matters.
"And then, some of the money is just for "study." For example, it includes $68 million to review the mayor's proposal to extend the number 7 train, along with a direct suburban commuter rail to the Financial District."
What direct suburban commuter rail? That's a new one on me!
What direct suburban commuter rail [to the Financial District]?
This sounds vaguely like some of the alternatives being considered in the Lower Manhattan Access Study.
Say, did anyone go to the LIRR-GCT hearing last week?
[Say, did anyone go to the LIRR-GCT hearing last week?]
What hearing?
Damn, I really seem to be out of the loop here . . .
([Say, did anyone go to the LIRR-GCT hearing last week?] What hearing? Damn, I really seem to be out of the loop here . . . )
I doubt they publicized that hearing very much. All the would have gotten was a bunch of people screaming about the Second Avenue Subway.
Oh, that old Atlantic Ave to Wall Street via Manhattan Bridge thing again.
It's new to me. Using new lines, or the subway tunnels?
It's all spelled out on the MTA's official website. There are a bunch of studies going on. As I recall, they include: MNCRR to Penn Sta., LIRR to GCT, NJ to mid-town, Upper East Side to Downtown, and MNCRR and LIRR to Downtown.
You should download all of the study documents, if you are interested. They are much too long to read on line.
I've been through most of them, though not for a while.
Anyone know how a quick charge of a air brake system is done?
why don't they ever pick up the garbage strewn around the tracks. We were at Atlantic over the weekend to see tires and bottles covered in dirt dust and other debris. It looks like hell. If they are trying to clean up the image, that would be a big solution.
Tell that to the SLOBS (I will not sully my good name by calling these beasts pigs) who throw stuff to the tracks. THEY should clean it up.
There is a vacuum train, to see it in action tune in this months Transit Transit.
You have got to be kidding! A vacuum train.How does this work?
Don't get too excited over that vacuum train. In order to use it, a general order (interrupting regular service) and power off is needed. The latter due to objects which may fly around which may cause fireworks if they hit the third rail.
[Don't get too excited over that vacuum train. In order to use it, a general order (interrupting regular service) and power off is
needed. The latter due to objects which may fly around which may cause fireworks if they hit the third rail.]
I also understand that it operates at a very low forward speed, barely one m.p.h.
>>>I also understand that it operates at a very low forward speed, barely one m.p.h.<<<
About the same speed as a R-68. 8-)
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Peace,
ANDEE
This is just a minor nitpick, but can you PLEASE stop putting 're:' in the subject line when you post a new message? The system automatically adds the 'RE:' to the appropriate messages. Those of us who access the site from multiple locations or don't get a chance to use the site frequently will be confused when they see 're:' on the first message of a new thread, and then try to find the message it is in REference to.
-Hank
1/9 Lines:
AM Rush: 280 R-62 PM Rush 280 R-62a
How can 280 R62s change into R-62As?
And why do other lines like the L and F have a 24 car difference between AM and PM rush?
The duration of the AM and PM rush hour periods are not equal in length. The PM rush usually lasts somewhat longer.
How can 280 R62s change into R-62As?
I believe that is a common phenomenon called a typographical error. All the R62s stay on the 4.
So the 1/9 are all R-62As, not R-62s, I hear you saying.
Yep, since 1986 ...
When the Metrocard Gold was implemented to replace the old blue MC, the MTA claimed that the blue one was not capable of storing the data to allow for multiple transfers on one card. And you couldn't have multiple transfers with the blue one.
However, a year later they managed to add unlimited ride timers to cards without changing them again, which makes the first one look like nothing more than a promotion gimmick with a real excuse.
But then I thought about. The card's software could have been modified for only unlimiteds, since one couldn't convert cards, then this way the old style PPRs would be the same as the new ones. By the time it will be possible to convert cards, the old ones will be obsolete and they won't have to waste a platinum edition when that can be saved for something bigger (like a smart card, or a SPECIAL hybrid card that doesn't require you figure out which to buy in advance). But then again, all of the Reduced Fare Metrocards worked with unlimited rides right away, with full functionality.
So what's the real story?
The blue, IIRC, had only 2 data tracks, while the gold has 3.
-Hank
No, they both have two. That has been proven.
For those of us who still appreciate 'treeware' the latest RAILPACE magazine has a nice spread on the Light Rail with a lovely map.
New pics of the LIRR Bay Ridge line have been posted:
http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/nycrrs
-Hank
Most of you all are saying that MNRR is better than LIRR. Well, I was wondering why is it that MNRR allows you to be 18 years old while LIRR requires you to be 21? Also, on LIRR, some LE's say you gotta be 21 and go to college, while on MNRR, A LE said you can be 18 after being a Conductor. Another Question, is it necessary to have a Car? some LE's say you don't have to, but some say if u don't you are gonna wish you did. Because they say a Supervisor might send you to Montauk in the morning to take out the 5:35 for example, he said you might be leaving around here(I live in Rosedale) at 1 or 2 AM. Also, besides Conductor, what other positions can I enter as?
Also, Workmen on Woodside Station says Dual-Mode will soon start on the Montauk line from beginning to end. Can someone Confirm this?
You need a Car on LIRR because you'll have a reporting time/station that the RR won't get you to.
This metrocard has appeared out of thin air or something. I saw it on e-bay. The metrocard has a New York scene on it with skyscrapers and a Statue of Liberty. It is as pretty as the blue metrocards were a couple of years back. Its expiration date is 2001 so it is one of the new ones with the golden back. I have asked around, but no one seems to know where it might be sold, except that it might have been given as a gift to the participants of the International Conference 2000 in New York, hence the name on a metrocard. So if anybody has has any ideas, do reply.
Hi,
I'm still new to much of this - which R-type cars are the Redbirds?
Thanks,
David
The Redbirds got their name from being overhauled from the mid 1980's through the early 1990's.The redbirds are on the 2,5,4,6, and the 7 .You can look up the history of the redbirds, the R-series by going to the home page and hit the link photographs and rolling stock, for a in depth redbird classification.
R26,R28,R29,R33,R33s,R36
-Mark
Mark has listed the R numbers for the "in passenger service" Red Birds, but others (lower numbers) can be found in yellow on the rails, then you have cars like the R-17 at Shoreline or a Red Bird wana be at Kingston, i.e. R-16 that LOOKS very similar, but was not an IRT car.
Do check out the FAQ section that will give you lots of detail AND check out the section there that has photos & locations of saved subway cars. This will bring you up to speed with the rest of us.
Mr t__:^)
In addition to the cars mentioned, there are a few R-21/22 revenue trains which still have motors.
This morning I experienced this GO for the first time, with my normally local 6:18 J train running express. I was under the impression that ALL trains (J and M) would run express towards Manhattan 24/7. But the M's are making local stops. What's being done here at this junction that forces only the J, but not the M, to run express all the time?
Always been this way. The J and Z make express stops between Marcy and Myrtle in the peak direction.
But it does so rush hours only.
No, I was referring to the GO that's forcing Manhattan bound J trains to run express to Manhattan 24 hours a day.
The switch is being reconstructed setting up the track in a way that only movement out of Metropolitan Av is permitted. At least the M is stopping at the stations between Myrtle and Marcy Avs. The worst thing they could have done was to cut the switch out and have the track from the M line run straight into the middle.
-Stef
Thanks. MAkes some sense now.
Does anyone know when Acela express service starts?
All I have managed to find out is that it will starts soon, in October of 1999.
October 1999 has come and gone and there is still no Acela Express service. The trains had been having mechanical problems. Oh well, that's what you get when you insist on a custom-made product built in a Plattsburgh, NY plant that won't do anything to fix its quality conmtol problems.
Service was pushed from October 1999 to January 2000, then April 2000. Now it's July 2000. Hmmmm . . . Saturday, 1 July 2000. Why, that's just twelve days away. Think the Acela Express trains will be ready in twelve days?
Dual-cab HHL-8s are currently being used in revenue test runs on Acela Regional between New haven and Boston.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
They are? That's good news. At least some new equipment is finally running. But so far I've heard nothing about the Acela Express trainsets. I'm hoping we'll see them in July like Amtrak is now saying. The HHL-8s are just regular electric locomotives, though they do put out an impressive amount of horsepower and can go 150 m.p.h.
Maybe Amtrak should order more HHL-8s and put them on the Metroliners and extend them to Boston as the premium serice. I don't see the logic for Amtrak terminating most of its NEC trains at Penn Station (where all Metroliners terminate now). Maybe it's a throwback to Penn Central days, but the Penn Central thankfully is long gone now and since it didn't do anything right, why retain its practices?
Amtrak should extend its Metroliners and more Northeast Direct trains and the Carolinian train to Boston. They should consider service from Penn station to Long Island (Empire service?). But at least extend the Clocker service to New Haven.
Amtrak should extend ... the Carolinian train to Boston.
Not a chance. That train is partially funded with North Carolina state money; in order to get the North Carolina legislature to agree to having service extended to New York, Amtrak had to agree to a reduction in the subsidy. There has also been a proposal to extend the Piedmont up to DC as well, but the state owns that trainset and equipment and won't consider it, even if Amtrak ponys up another set of equipment to offset the additional mileage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A usually reliable source tells me that the Acela Express will first serve just the NYP-WAS segment, beginning in August or September. WAS-BOS service start-up is still unknown. He also says that #173/174 will convert to Acela Regional (electric) service -- a third round-trip in that mode, sometime in July.
From SFO, Just off BART and MUNI. By the way, I think some of MUNI's new 8000-series articulated trolley coaches (trackless trolleys) are using AC traction -- they make "that sound."
I knew it! I knew Amtrak wasn't going have the Acela Express trains ready for service to Boston by July. Now what's wrong with the trains? Is the tilting mechanism failing or something?
Is there some valid reason why they will not be operated north of Penn Station when they enter service? Will we at least get to see more frequent service north of Penn Sation? The ten roundtrips from Boston to Washington are just not enough.
That's what you get when you insist on custom-made equipment with unproven components (the same type of tilting equipment that failed on Via Rail's LRC trains).
In today's Washington Post:
Amtrak Halts Tests of New Fast Trains
"Amtrak halted test runs of its new high-speed trains over the weekend when cracked or missing bolts were found in several wheel sets, a finding that will delay the start of regular service between Washington and Boston at least until mid-August, officials said yesterday.
[...]"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24229-2000Jun19.html
Now it's the bolts in the wheel sets? What's next, the seats coming loose? Mid-August is the date for service now. Pretty soon it'll be the 12th of Never.
All together now, "Amtrak's folly!"
This morning, I heard on WTOP which can be heard 1500-AM, 107.7 FM, and wtopnews.com that service will be postponed until September due to safety problems. I may be a month off for the story was read when I was half asleep.
Saw a train set sitting in the Ivy City yards in DC two Fridays ago,
looks nice...
I saw two in Philadelphia on Saturday.
I've never actually seen a NY&A train before and I was wondering if they used LIRR diesels with the old LIRR livery on them. Does anyone have any photos?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Look down a bit, you'll spot my link. Thye are former LIRR GP38s, repainted into a green and yellow livery.
-Hank
If you wish to see an NY & A train one goes by almost every week on the lower Montauk, hang around the 88st crossing (or some other point east of Fresh Pond) between 4:20 and 4:40, After the LIRR deadhead at 4:05(I love the look on the motorists faces. A train!? Here?!). I think that is the busiest RR xing in the main part of Queens, since Woodhaven Blvd. motorists sometimes use it to avoid the traffic.
I'll have photos back in a couple of days. Hank E already has some downloaded (see related threads).
FYI, the diesel locos are decked out in a handsome bright green with antique white trim (footholds, grab-irons, and railings). The train crews wore either NY&A caps, or matching golf-shirts.
Doug aka BMTman
Hi Folks, Does anyone have any video footage from this trip? I brought my video camera but some how it decided to quit on me. Some kind of a power problem. If anyone has the above mentioned trip on video, Could someone please E mail me? I would like a copy. Thank You very much. Regards, Tom.
If you are talking the NYCRRS trip, I do have video. I will be compressing it this week, and I'll let you know when it can be downloaded.
-Hank
Tom, I got your e-mail at my juno account. I haven't viewed the thing yet, but will make a report to you when I get a peek at the thing.
As it turned out BTW, I videoed just about the entire trip from Fresh Pond Yard out to Bay Ridge before the batteries decided to quit on me. I was lucky enough to have shared the "toilet platform" during the ride. This meant that I was positioned by an open doorway at one of the coach ends and merely leaned out slightly to shoot the trip looking down the side of the coach and the leading GP-38.
Doug aka BMTman
I found several unairconditioned cars today, I figure it is my civic duty to post them so that future riders will not have to deal with the heat:
7855 on the 5
8800 on the 5
1812 on the 6
1813 on the 6
In both cases, the cars were consecutive in the consist, extremely annoying.
Is there some sort of descrimination going on here. All these cars are on Bronx lines, are they not?????
Give me a break...
They also travel into Manhattan and sometimes Brooklyn. I don't think the MTA employees in the yards are trying to sabotage the IRT cars specifically because they run in the bronx. Let's not forget how old the R26's are as well...
-Harry
How do you know that they travel the 5 and 6 every day. Since everything in NY connects they may get switched frequently.
The ones on the 5 have a misicule chance of switching to the 2 at New Lots, but they will be back on the 5 later. The ones on the 6 will only switch to something else if there is a yard move, not very frequent.
Henry and I just happened to ride those lines yesterday, that's all. Sooner or later he'll have a more diverse list.
Yesterday, I rode R42 #4917, with no AC. Damned Coney Island overhauled R42's. They suck compared to the MK units.
When and on what lines in Manhattan can I see the R110B?
C train, not sure about which run(s). It makes at least one round trip on weekdays, sometimes a second. I don't know the times though.
It passes thru 59th/columbus at approx. 1200-1215. That's the time I caught it at a few months ago. I believe it is still on the same schedule.
Peace,
ANDEE
You can ask Glenn Rowe, I remember him saying that he always saw it on the C when operating the A. Glenn, you there?
--Clayton Parker--
Head Techie @ The Tech Room
http://www.thetechroom.com
hotline://216.232.120.20:5555 (IP Changing Soon!)
R110B Schedule:
Southbound C To Euclid Avenue:
Departs 168th Street at 9:56a or 10:06a (Varies from day to day) and sometimes a 1:43pm trip is made.
Northbound C To 168th Street:
Departs Euclid Avenue at 11:23 or 11:33 (Varies from day to day) which puts it at Chambers somewhere around 12 noon and then a 3:15 trip is sometimes made (only if the 1:43 trip is made).
Happy Hunting!
Flxible Metro B #3511
I will post this along with the R142 schedule at http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm.
That, of course, is if it runs at all. I was with Henry R32 #3730 yesterday and both the 9:56 and 10:06 trips were R38. BTW, if anyone was at the front window of the 9:56, you would have seen my frustrated self putting my camera back into its bag at 34 St/Penn Station.
a customer whose blood alcohol level was above the medical limit for being able to stand up, claims that the doors of a redbird struck him in his backside and broke his bottle of thunderbird... the customer was very upset and swore that he would never ride the subway or drink thunderbird again... when in need of a future ride, he vowed he would travel only on night train...
a spokesman for the mta reminded customers to keep all bottles out of their rear pockets, as there is a rash of pickpockets riding the rails... on an unrelated note, the spokesman promised that the long awaited brochure on safe travel on mta escalators would be out next month, and would be available in 32 languages... also to be released before the introduction of the r-142's will be a pamphlet of special safety tips for riders of the new subway cars... highlights include hints on how to survive a fire as well practical suggestions of how to remain cool and focused in the event of a derailment...
Does anybody know what "The Hub" is in the Bronx and where it is? I heard it was a popular spot for Graffiti vandals in the 70's on the system. Is this true?
The Bronx Hub is the area around l49th and 3rd Ave..I'll guess extending in each direction about one half mile from that point. I assume it got that name because it was the Central Business District for the early Bronx, before the boom of the l920's brought more population farther north, and Fordham Rd, became the northern equivalent. During the graffitti epidemic of the 70's I didn't notice that the hub was any worse than other areas; I did notice that the A train and Bronx lines got heavy graffitti first; it later moved to the Eastern Div. BMT and I'd say the Southern got itlast. Queens was somewhere in between.
I think it has more to do with the number of roads that converge on the area.
The spot you are talking about was in the 149th St/Grand Concourse station. Here is some history.
THE BENCH
Peace,
ANDEE
Thanks Andee, I did not know there was such a history behind that location.What does it look like today.I guess the T.A. has gotten rid of the graf.What does the neighbouhood look like around the station?
The area today is still a strong retail area.
Peace,
ANDEE
A connection to the long gone 3rd Ave EL still exists as a service corridor under the 149th St / 3rd Ave station. The tile on the wall still says something like "to elevated trains".
--Mark
I thought that underpass was obliterated with the rebuilding of the station. It sure was a neat place for us to play in back in those days. We could run from northbound to southbound platform, through the tunnel connection to the el. At the top of the escalator, there was an enclosed wooden passage, above the street but below the el tracks. We'd stand there and watch the wheels of el trains coming and going. It was quite close. There were stairs leading to the wooden island platform, which was put in after the 1955 cut back.
Joe Caronetti
What year did this shut down and what has replaced it?
The Bronx segment of the 3rd ave el shut in April 1973. Replaced by a fleet of new GMC fishbowls in the 4800-4900 series and a new line, the BX55X. Still runs today, but not those fishbowls.
Joe C.
fishbowls and BX55X. Sorry, I dont know what these are.
Fishbowls: Bus model
Bx55X: Original name for Bx55 bus route.
Sorry, Borg.
The fishbowl was the popular transit & suburban style bus General Motors began builing about late 1959/ early 1960. Appeared in just about every US & Canadian city. Sadly, not too many are in use these days.
The Bx55X was the "express" bus route the city started to "replace"
the discontinued 3rd Ave elevated rapid transit line. This was line of the city's earliest true elevateds (not running in subway) and the last to come down. "BX" signifies the borough Bronx, as NYC is comprised of 5 boroughs. The "X" designation is Express.
Joe C
I'm glad the word "deck and a half" didn't come up.
Fishbowls are alive and well in Toronto, Canada.
--Mark
I have been down for 5 days because AOL messed up my browser, so I am just checking in
Seems to work, you did post correctly. How did AOL (more popularly AOHelL) manage to mess up your browser? I presume that somebody tried to install AOL and it hijacked your IP settings. A friend that uses AOL had his screwed up big time by something called "Blue Light" that KMart is pushing. It seems to be a new internet service that KMart is starting, as the software can be gotten for free at any KMart. He eventually had to reformat his hard drive and re-install everything before AOL would work correctly.
Kinda like finding out that your new $150M+ cars won't work correctly AFTER you scrapped those old dependable cars you've had sice 1950.
The IND for the most part was a humdrum railroad.. its redemption was speed and lack of slow curves and turnouts for the most part. The Crowning jewel was the Central Park West express run. Southbound, coming into l25 on the D or A was a nice highballing stretch. Leaving l25 it was pretty much an average run until 86 St..A nice downgrade from there, timed for 45 mph. Shut off power and let the weight and inertia take you to 59 St. If you hit it just right you wouldn't have to use any air; just watch the Yellow/S signals go green right in your face. Clatter over the crossovers north of 59th and make the grand entry. That made the whole ride thru Manhattan worthwhile. Northbound it was upgrade 59-86th, get over the hump, shut off and unless memory fails me you could coast all the way to l25th. Maybe a pinch of air going down the dip to-was it ll0th?; maybe no air, lay back enough and the excess speed gained get reduced going back upgrade.All timed for 45 MPH until ll6th..then a 35, then 25 mph for the curve. Once the last timer cleared you'd roll right into l25st on the "advertised." It was great with just air, no dynamic drag to slow you down when you shut off power. [on R10 thru 42 the dynamic circuits set up as soon as you shut off power--but I did have a trick to make the dynamic drop out on R10's and make them coast]. Running those old steel heavyweights was great, If you had good vibes with an R1-9 and had a good train they did exactly what you wanted!
The uptown run stands out in my memory. The R-10s would still be gathering speed at 72nd St., hitting full stride about halfway between 72nd and 81st., or about where that storage track began. At that point, we were off to the races, bearing down on 81st St. which would typically be a blur. I can honestly say I never had to hold my ears while riding on the R-10s on a CPW express dash. They weren't exactly whisper quiet, but nor were they painfully loud back then, either.
One detail stands out from my first express ride on Nov. 24, 1967. Our D train had been coasting along, then at around 103rd St., the motorman applied power and the bull and pinion gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C.
I’m about to embark on my railfan trip, driving 40 miles north to Hamilton to catch the 5:32 NJT train to Penn Station. Special thanks to Henry R32 #3730, R68A – 5200, Wayne-MrSlantR40, and Thurston for your comments and suggestions.
Bob
Metro North Can go to Penn Station. From Spuyten Duyvil on the old west side freight line to Penn Station and also form Port Morris Freight Yard Over Hell Gate thru Sunnyside Yards To Penn Station.
Plus a refit of the third rail shoe for the AMD-103 is needed.
And what Platform would MetroNorth use at Penn??
Penn is at Max trains per hour most of the day. Even losing one platform to an equipment failure causes huge problems for the LIRR and then Amtrak will put a Northeast Direct train on track 16 and it is total confusion.
If the LIRR can take valuable storage tracks from Grand Central then they can loose some of there tracks at Penn Station
If the LIRR can loose some tracks at Penn Station then they DONT NEED the surplus tracks at Grand Central.
Metro North will not go to Penn Station. Why should they, There are so many empty platforms in GCT that are rarely used. MTA owns GCT, why should they pay Amtrack to use Penn Station. It would make more sense for LIRR to move to GCT via a new tunnel, then Metro North to come into Over crowded Penn Station
It does not make any sense for the LIRR to go to GCT via a new tunnel but they are going to.
WHAT new tunnel? From what i understand, the MTA'S using the 63 street tunnel lower level to connect to the Park ave line, something like what the TA is doing with the 63 st/Queens Blvd connector.
No, that's what they *should* be doing. Instead they're spending billions to build a new deep bore two track tunnel from 63rd to GCT and a new annex--even though there's plenty of existing track and platform capacity.
Originally back in the 70s, the 63rd St Tun, was to be built for the Subway and LIRR into GCT. Those were the plans in 75, the rest is History
?
I'm not opposed to using the 63rd Street tunnel for its original purpose. The problem is that it should tie into the existing Park Avenue tunnel and the existing platforms, which have plenty of available capacity. Instead, they're building a new and unnecessary tunnel and annex at a cost of billions.
If you look at the timetables and track usage during rush hours you really need three tracks in service at all times. This was shown during the Park Ave viaduct rebuild. If you lose 1 track for any reason, there are massive delays. Putting LIRR trains on any track will reduce capacity !!! As someone who uses MNRR, I say that is not acceptable !!
[If you look at the timetables and track usage during rush hours you really need three tracks in service at all times. This was shown during the Park Ave viaduct rebuild. If you lose 1 track for any reason, there are massive delays. Putting LIRR trains on any track will reduce capacity !!! As someone who uses MNRR, I say that is not acceptable !!]
Agreed. But you're assuming that all MN trains would continue to go to GCT. The LIRR diversion would open up slots in Penn Station for MN trains--there would be *no reduction* in MN service.
It's a win-win situation--better access for LIRR customers commuting to the East Side, better access for MN customers commuting to the West Side, more slots and service overall, and several billion dollars freed up from the current capital plan for other uses.
Widen the tunnel to 5-6 tracks. It would involve ripping up Park Avenue, but they did that in 1990 with the original reconstruction. At 57th Street, the tracks begin to spread out already, so one would only need to work with about 6 blocks.
I'm not sure why they aren't planning to do that. Probably because it would cost less money.
To add to the ridiculousness of the whole thing, the LIRR tunnels would lead to the annex while the proposed NJT tunnel would lead to existing slots on the lower level.
Also, extra time saved in construction. How long will it take to build a 4 block tunnel from 63rd/1st to Park Ave? Then again, that QB line connection has taken 6 years...
The tunnel ends at 2nd.
[Metro North will not go to Penn Station. Why should they, There are so many empty platforms in GCT that are rarely used. MTA owns GCT, why should they pay Amtrack to use Penn Station. It would make more sense for LIRR to move to GCT via a new tunnel, then Metro North to come into Over crowded Penn Station.]
Plans have long called for MN to go to Penn Station once the LIRR has GCT access, which will free up slots in Penn. It makes sense, given that the track is already there and that for many people working downtown and on the West Side Penn would be more convenient than GCT. And it makes double sense because it would free up two Park Avenue tracks for the LIRR!
Still won t happen, where will the money come from, It is cheaper to combine Metro North/LIRR tickets with the Subway, and have the people take the shuttle to Times Sq, and take a West Side Train, then spend billions to build more track etc.
[Still won t happen, where will the money come from, It is cheaper to combine Metro North/LIRR tickets with the Subway, and have the people take the shuttle to Times Sq, and take a West Side Train, then spend billions to build more track etc.]
But that's the thing--there's no need for more track. The lines already exist. Some power and signalling work, an expansion of the short tunnel from the West Side line to Penn from one track to two--that's it. Meanwhile, it would save much of the $3.5 billion they've allocated in the current 5 year plan for the unnecessary 63rd St--GCT tunnel and annex, and that's only a fraction of what they plan to spend on that project. So we'd get GCT LIRR access, MN west side access, and *save several billion dollars and years of construction* in the deal.
New Haven division can go direct. The tracks are there, as well as power. Signal system may need some work !!
[Metro North Can go to Penn Station. From Spuyten Duyvil on the old west side freight line to Penn Station and also form Port Morris Freight Yard Over Hell Gate thru Sunnyside Yards To Penn Station.]
They've talked about this for a long time, but because of capacity limitations in Penn and the 32nd/33rd St. tunnels, it depends on shifting LIRR trains to GCT first.
They could do that, without that ridiculously costly new LIRR tunnel and annex. Just connect the 63rd Street tunnel to two of the Metro North tracks. Shift the leftover MN/NHRR trains into Penn Station as you suggest, via Sunnyside and the West Side line as appropriate. Now use those same MN tracks above 63rd Street for a Bronx superexpress via the BMT express, which would take the load off the Lexington Avenue.
OK, you've now provided East Side access for the LIRR and West Side access for MN/NHRR, opened up lots of new slots for the LIRR and NJT, reduced overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue, and saved billions of dollars on a new Park Avenue tunnel and annex. And if you build a 10 block tunnel from the Penn Station tracks to the GCT Lower Level, you can provide direct GCT access for NJT transit trains too . . .
Just updated the R142 schedule at http://members.aol.com/orentree/R142.htm based on the info Pelham Bay Dave gave me. Please post any schedule changes or corrections so I can make the schedule accurate. I might do the remaining schedules today, I hope to do them by the time I leave for camp next week.
they are R142As right
If you are reading this, it means that you were attracted by the missing words represented by the ellipsis. BUT, I'm announcing new page to my site dedicated to fallicies in maps related to stations and trackage. You may see it at: http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/badmaps.html. e-mail me for any corrections and suggestions.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Of the five explanations you posted, 3.5 are wrong.
It's the Van Wyck EXPRESSWAY and this has been mentioned before: The Whitestone branch DID have passenger service. Do you not read my messages?
It's 4 trains, not 8 (I won't mentioned the fact that cemetery is spelled wrong even though the correct spelling is on the map, oops, I just did).
Only a half error: Parts of the area you showed are closer to the Gowanus Expressway
Since when was the Bruckner Expressway in Brooklyn?
No error.
[2. It's 4 trains, not 8]
And, of the 3.5 corrections you made, 1.0 was wrong. As long as we're making corrections, it's neither 4 nor 8, it's 2! (8:11 AM from Jamaica to LIC and 4:54 PM from LIC to Jamaica) - which reminds me of Laurel & Hardy in Babes in Toyland (aka March of the Wooden Soldiers), when Ollie tells Stan, who is eating the sausages supposedly made from Elmer the PIG, "It's neither PIG nor pork, it's beef!
That's 2 scheduled trains, there is a LIRR deadhead that passes 88st at about 4:05, I see it arrive at LIC just after the 4:25 leaves for HP. Both tracks at HP are filled, so the only way it can get is is via Lower Montauk. It can't stay in LIC since there are only 2 tracks with high platforms. Though, it could come later since it doesn't have to leave until 5:52.
Nice to hear that one of my compatriots wasn't eaten!
[Nice to hear that one of my compatriots wasn't eaten!]
I was planning a barbecue this weekend. You're welcome to be the guest of honor, it'll save me a trip to the supermarket.
I can (sort of) justify my error.
When I rode the line, there were still 4. The schedule I have now still has 4, although I should check some newer schedules from other lines (as opposed to the outdate City Terminal Zone).
Actually, there are 4 trains each weekday to and from LIC. However only one each way takes the Montauk line. The others stop at Hunterspoint Ave. and take the Main Line through Woodside.
Corrections made and re-uploaded.
BTW:
(I won't mentioned the fact that cemetery is spelled wrong even though the correct spelling is on the map, oops, I just did).
Your use of the the past tense in the word 'mentioned' is incorrect with future contraction of 'will not'. I'm just helping you with YOUR syntax.
Thanks anyway
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Mentioned is a typo.
Or is it won't?
Mentioned is a typo.
Or is it won't?
Another thing: Check out the Westbridge station at Jamaica Avenue west of Jamaica station on one of the LIRR lines.
After reading about the demolition of EMD's La Grange Plant in Canada, I was wondering if the new LIRR DE-30AC diesels were the last locomotives built there?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
NEW map track error page!
The LaGrage plant was in Illinois. The London (Ontario) plant is the Canadian plant, and is still in operation.
LIRR are build, under contract, by Super Steel Inc, at Schenectady NY (a requirment under contract - Made in NY).
Super Steel is a EMD partner, and builds EMD spec equipment in Schenectady. I believe that they do the fabrication, and EMD supplies the mechanicals.
Does Super Steel use the old Alco plant? I also think that END does some manufacturng work in la Grange, but from there they send parts to other plants for the final workings. I know that EMD has been sending kits to Altoona PA for final assembly. Like all of Conrail's SD-70's and SD-80's were built there and carry Juniata Shops builders plates.
EMD might still produce components at LaGrange, and they still have administration and engineering functions there, but they demolished the erection hall, thus ending it's days as a locomotive builder.
SSI also built the majority of the F59PHI's for Amtrak (West), Caltrans and Metrolink. (The first two for Amtrak West, #450-451, have London, Ontario on their builder plates; the rest have SSI.)
Well, I actually looked at the model plate on the side of the locomotive itself and it said it was built at la Grange.
-Daniel
That's a beautiful locomotive. Makes up for the boring boxiness of the double deckers.
I've been down to the LIC and Penny Bridge station a coupl of times and I never see people there. How many people on average actually take the LIRR to LIC? Last time I was there I saw old rusting coaches, but do they still use them and GP-38s, or do they used the the DE-30ACs and the Kawasaki bilevels?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
NEW map track error page!
[I've been down to the LIC and Penny Bridge station a coupl of times and I never see people there. How many people on average actually take the LIRR to LIC? Last time I was there I saw old rusting coaches, but do they still use them and GP-38s, or do they used the the DE-30ACs and the Kawasaki bilevels?]
Once every six weeks or so, I'll take the one morning train to Long Island City that uses the Lower Montauk line (8:11 or 8:14, I don't remember which, from Jamaica). I'd say that there are about 25 people on average.
The train has used bilevels for some time now. AFAIK, the old coaches are no longer in passenger service.
[Once every six weeks or so, I'll take the one morning train to Long Island City that uses the Lower Montauk line (8:11 or 8:14, I don't remember which, from Jamaica).]
I do the same thing, Peter, about three or four times a year (It's the 8:11 AM from Jamaica to LIC. There's also a 4:54 PM from LIC to Jamaica)
Here's an idea - how about a mini Subtalk field trip one of these days, either AM or PM? We could meet either in Jamaica in the morning or in LIC in the evening. Of course it would only last 22-23 minutes according to the schedule. Would any of you Subtalkers be interested?
I would, if I can scrape together $5.50 when it is scheduled.
Yow! You're right. It is $5.50 one way Peak from Zone 3 (Jamaica) to Zone 1 (LIC)
Too bad there's no off-peak service.
Around Thanksgiving (either Wednesday or Friday) the LIRR charges off-peak all day.
[Here's an idea - how about a mini Subtalk field trip one of these days, either AM or PM? We could meet either in Jamaica in the morning or in LIC in the evening. Of course it would only last 22-23 minutes according to the schedule. Would any of you Subtalkers be interested?]
I like the idea. Either AM or PM would be okay for me.
BTW, for people who've never ridden this line, it gives you what's probably the only opportunity in the area to walk through the middle of an active rail yard.
I would also be interested in a trip like this since I've never taken the route. I was planning to bike the route from LIC to the Fresh Pond Yard, but this is also good. Is anyone interested in railfan bike trip?
-Daniel
I rode there once, there were a few people. I believe everyone boarded the 7.
I think I was the only one to board it Flushing-bound though.
In the debate over whether the 2 or the 5 should serve six "local" stations from East Tremont Avenue to Jackson Avenue, I remembered the Freeman Street Locals. In my perhaps faulty memory, there was a time before about 1948 when Pelham had no rush-hour Bronx express service, and when the third track above Boston Road was used for Freeman Street turnbacks (and there were no rush-hour expresses). So one unacceptable solution to the current argument is to make all trains local south of E 180 St. I still think the passengers of those six stations should be polled for their preference (Lex or 7th Ave?). In the mid-1940's the only express service in the Bronx may have been those 3rd Avenue trains that went express up to Tremont Avenue (& 3rd).
This is not a complicated matter. The 5 MUST skip these stations or it will be more crowded than it already is on the East Side. People on the West Side can choose between 4 locals and 4 expresses at rush hour, the East Siders can choose between 1 local and 2 expresses. It is alot easier for someone to walk to Central Park West from Broadway than it is to get onto a full train or taking the crosstown over to the West Side. End of story.
Joe: Express service on the IRT Pelham Line began on October 14,1946 and ran Mon-Sat. Thru-Express service on the IRT West Farms Line began on April 23,1953 between East 180 Street and 3 Avenue. It was extended to Gun Hill Road on October 2,1953. During the 1940's there was also express service in The Bronx on the IND Grand Concourse Line provided by c and D trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Who is the Station/Branch Manager for the
242nd St. Van Cortlandt Park IRT 1/9 line
and what is their contact information?
Doesn't he/she work at 96th Street tower ?
Mr t__:^)
Your kidding, right? That must be 6 or 8 miles away from the station. How can you supervise a station thats 6 or 8 miles away from your work site?
Every day as I ride through the Surface Subway trolley tunnel from 30th St. to 37th St. the little LRV's wheels SCREACH and SQUEAK as they round the numerous tight curves and track work. However today the wheels were absolutely quiet. the only squeeking came from the brake shoes as the LRV slowed down. Even on the most severe curves the wheels only let out a peep. What caused this drastic level of noice reduction?
Congratulations, you picked a quiet subway car. As for me, I sometimes rode Broad Street Subway cars quieter than the norm when I went to school, and some noisier than the norm. Maybe they replaced the trucks or something. Do you have the trolley number? If you do, you could ask someone at SEPTA if they did something.
Was it raining? Water is the best lube for squalking rails.
If not they may have just greased the rail.
Grease, maybe; or perhaps they have installed one of those awful TRACK SPRAYERS! ***(BOOOO!)****. We have some of them here at Grand Central and South Ferry. In PATH at World Trade Centre, about a 100-foot radius curve, they grease the rails.
wayne
Curve greasing is an art! The curve must have a guard rail (or be sreetcar girder rail) and the grease must be applied so that it lubricates the back side of the wheel flange without getting the grease on the tread or the brake shoes.
If PATH does it the traditional way, they use grease from the Crater family of greases and apply it in the form of "dots" of grease and allow the cars to spread it on the back of the guard rail.
At BSM our use of girder rail loops requires greasing on the a regular basis, otherwise the screaming is hard on the cars and the ears. Our Track Super (Carl Merson) and his #1 assistant (Ray Cannon) have noted that it seems that every time they grease the loops it rains the next day. That's why we use Crater. (Same stuff the Shop greases the car gears with.) It doesn't wash off in the rain.
There is a VERY sharp curve on an industrial track near Syracuse. CSX keeps plenty of 5-gallon pails of Texaco Curve Grease as well as switch brooms to apply it with handy. BTW, Curve grease isn't quite as tarry as Crater coumpond (Used to lubricate traction motor gears)
Denver's light rail line has one nasty curve directly beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct as the tracks make a right angle turn to align with Colfax Ave. Surprisingly, the cars hardly squeal at all. There doesn't appear to be any lubricant on the rails, although I could be wrong.
The countdown to Opening Day for the Southwest Corridor continues. Stations are essentially finished. The Rocky Mountain News reported that 3-car trains would operate on the new line. One sore spot is lack of sufficient parking. There are only 2400 parking spaces combined along the Southwest Corridor, and many people feel this won't be nearly enough, especially if RTD is counting on high ridership.
Free rides will be offered all weekend long on July 14-15-16. I will be on hand to report.
I wonder if Denver is using Radial Trucks on their LRV's? Radial trucks should have little if any squeal factor.
At Branford Shore Line trolley museum we use Texaco grease which
is dispensed automatically by flange-activated greaser pumps at
the 3 guarded mainline curves. On yard trackage we apply the
same compound by hand with a brush mounted on a long stick.
The TA uses automatic greasers (of more modern design than
ours) and I'm fairly sure PATH does as well.
Well there is at least ONE curve that doesn't get greased - that is the one on the N/B "B" line as it disappears beneath 4th Avenue from its cut along 39th Street. With its radius of probably less than 200 feet (the N/B tracks are on the inside of the curve), it causes a great gnashing of the teeth and weeping of the wheels, especially on the R40/R40M/R42 cars that occasionally run there.
wayne
Having nothing better to write and nothing better to do today, I glanced up at the rules for posting and I noticed the rule "Avoid flamage". Well because I like to be contrary I instantly though of the inverse of this. A message board where all the bessage HAd to be flamage or they would be deleted. Well then I realized that this may not be such a bad idea. Like the father who catches his son smoking cigars and then forced him to smoke the whole box at once we sould have a day where the only posts allowed on Subtalk can be personal attacks on another poster. I predict that people will become so sick of having to attack others and having others attach them that they will never want to flame again, thus bringing Sub Talk into a golden age where we all discus transit in an atmosphere of peace and harmony.
Note to Heypaul: What does this rate on th "Heypaul scale of wackyness". 10 being a typical heypaul post and 1 being a post devoid of any humor (like those from Mr. La Transit System). I ask this because I have noticed a change in my recent posts and I think I caught one of those mental illnesses you have.
mike... i think your idea is one of the stupidest things i have ever heard here... i am doubly surprised since you are a college student... in order words, i think your idea is great...
Mike ,
You didn't catch anything.
YOU'VE REACHED PUBERTY!
AVID
Although your idea was likely made tongue-in-cheek, I agree in a small way. It seems to me that this country has embraced the concept of political correctness to such an extent that we are rapidly losing our ability to express ourselves honestly, say what's on our minds and even to laugh. When I was growing up we used to say,
"Stix & Stones will break my bones but names will never harm me."
Now, we've become so thin-skinned that slap-stick comedy (like the Seinfeld episode where the Puerto Rican flag accidentally gets burnt)becomes a national debate on tollerance and sensativity. To think that self appointed public sensors like Bill Cosby can buy the rights to classic comedy series and then bury them, denying the rest of us the right to see them because he disagrees with the content, in itself is repugnant. I say if a guy is a schmuck we should all be able to tell him he's a schmuck and it should bot be considered flamage.
What classic comedy series did he buy and why?
mike... i think train dude was referring to a rumor that i had heard and also believed that bill cosby had bought the rights to the 50's tv series amos 'n andy and was going to keep in from being distributed.... in case you never saw it, amos 'n andy was a tv comedy show that had its origins on the radio for over 30 years... on the radio it was performed by two white men who did many of the voices of the characters who were black... on tv, it was played by black actors and was a pioneering show in that there were no white people in the cast... the tv show was on for about a year, when the naacp pressured for the show's removal because of the way it depicted people of color.. i loved the show, especially the theme music which played at the beginning and end... however, one of the characters, the kingfish, who was the comic heart of the show, was a conniving character who never had a job, and spoke in a comic fractured english, and was always trying to cheat andy out of his money... it was felt by naacp that the show reflected poorly on people of color... cbs took it off the air....
in recent years there were rumors that cosby was determined to prevent distribution of the videos, because he objected to how the show portrayed blacks... i believed that, partly because i am not a fan of cosby, and find him to have grown smug....
anyway... there is a website devoted to the show, and i raised the question of cosby's attempt to squelch the show, and was informed by a woman who has written quite extensively on the series that this was only a rumor, and not true... i think the show is available on tape
and I FOR ONE agree with Mr Cosby. I understand , as part of ''our'' history, shows that dipict peoplev of colour as bumbling idiots and shuckin/javin fools was the '' norm'' as it is now. Most t.v programs[to me ]today are full of bumbling idiots with a new twist called sit-coms to entertaine [ if thats what u want to call it] i'll stick with the discovery/learning channels please
your objections are quite legitimate... when amos and andy first aired on the radio, it was not dominated by the actions of the kingfish... amos was a hard working man who came up north to better himself... even in the tv series, he had a wife and child and was a decent hardworking man... for its time, it portrayed people of color in a more positive normal way, than some of the more usual film figures of frightened or subservient people... i don't believe that white people who watched it laughed at the comedy just because the characters were not white... kingfish was a con man just like phil silvers sargeant bilko, and his scheming was funny... i have lost my taste for most tv shows nowadays, and can see where amos and andy is objectionable... but it did seem believable in the same sort of way that the honeymooners were believable... i have heard people say that the honeymooners owed a lot to amos and andy... my own sense of what's funny comes a lot from shows like abbott and costello, the honeymooners, the stooges, amos and andy, our miss brooks... it was a long time ago...
Ditto for me on that one Paul. The Honeymooners were not white trash, but certainly lower, lower, lower middle class that didn't portray white people in the most favorable light. That show made me laugh like Amos and Andy did. Ed Norton was my favorite character. "You'll Never Get Rich", the Phil Silvers Show, was another one that made whites look like a bunch of con men and dupes. The difference, I believe, is that history's real portrayal of blacks was a sad and tragic heritage, and there was a senstivity to it on the part of African-Americans. Most whites never had that problem until large amounts of immigrants started arriving from Southern and Eastern Europe, mostly Jews and Catholics with different cultures.
The difference is that whites were shown is many shows in many ways while blacks were only portrayed in one show in basically one way. I've always thought, however, the they did manage to make the community in Harlem appear as a decent looking family environment.
I agree. Take ''Leave it to Beaver''. It shows a modern middle class family from middle america doing well,finiancally speaking and upstanding moral icons of American culture that every family wanted to be like or what T.V.wanted ''us '' to be like. on the filp side , you had the Honeymooners, struggling on Ralphs 65 dollars a week pay check. Tell me, which was the ideal American portrayal[truthfully speaking] of white social standing.
I thought that $65 was an average weekly salary back in the 50s. Without children, it's even better.
Assuming transit fares have kept pace with inflation (FINALLY ON TOPIC!!!). The fare was 15 cents then and is $1.50 now. So $65 is equal to $650 today. $650 a week is about $33K annually which I believe is the average annual salary of an American family.
However, the rise of transit fares has been SLOWER than inflation (TAKE THAT all you anti-fare hike people!), that makes it even better.
How have bus driver salaries kept up with inflation?
What about a Cost of Living adjustment for Brooklyn over another area? Then? Now?
i've thinking about what has been said about the honeymooners and amos and andy... the shows went beyond color or occupations, remember norton was a sewer worker... there was a mood about ralph's apartment and his way of thinking and acting... there was a humanness about his striving to make himself better and failing... kingfish's arguments with his wife and his mother-in-law went beyond his being a black man... calhoun the lawyer's outrageous style went beyond his color... they were funny and you could identify with their lives... oddly both shows had the men in fraternal organizations... the raccoons and the mystic knights of the sea... i don't think the shows were trying to be role models for people... the characters seem more real than the artificial happy families of ozzie and harriet or leave it to beaver... actually, i think some of those shows left a lot of young people thinking that their own families were screwed up because everything wasn't walking around with a crap eating smile...
i don't know... that's just the way i kind of remember those shows....
OH guys ....... I just love this board!!!!!!!!!
777: At least we are in good spirits about this topic, even though we may disagree on particulars. Some of the other stuff I've been engaged in on this line has been hostile and unfriendly. I'm tired of that and look for more like this. It is certainly more of a pleasant experience.
It started with the first Irish Migrations in the 1840s, when most of the Country was English/German WASP DECENT, and here came the Irish Catholics, then came the Italians and Jews in the 1880s etc. Of course there were the Blacks, Native Americans and Mexican s that were here at that time.
If they were of German descent, they weren't WASPs but rather WOGPs (White Ostrogothic Protestants).
As a Visigoth, I find your exclusion of my heritage deeply offensive.
Why? We weren't talking about Iberia and Gaul.
The Gauls were Celts. Not sure what the Iberians were, other than Iberians. Weren't the Visigoths from Low Germany and Scandinavia?
Yes, but the Celts were displaced to Brittany and Britian when the Visigoths were pushed away by the Huns (they had moved down to occupy the Rhine Valley before that). The Visigoths continued to occupy Gaul until being displaced by the Franks (Charlemagne's Franks, not Nathan's Franks) and forced into the Iberian Peninsula. The Visigoths ceased to exist as a nation when Spain (comes from Span, the Visigothic name for the area) was conquered by the Moors.
As for the others, the Frankish kingdom, later known as the Holy Roman Empire became West Francia, or as we know it: France.
The Celts in Britain (the ones from Gaul and the ones there from the Pleistocene) were in turn displaced by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes that are the descendants of the modern English.
And the Huns remained to live in HUNgary.
[Yes, but the Celts were displaced to Brittany and Britian when the Visigoths were pushed away by the Huns (they had moved down to occupy the Rhine Valley before that). The Visigoths continued to occupy Gaul until being displaced by the Franks (Charlemagne's Franks, not Nathan's Franks) and forced into the Iberian Peninsula. The Visigoths ceased to exist as a nation when Spain (comes from Span, the Visigothic name for the area) was conquered by the Moors.
As for the others, the Frankish kingdom, later known as the Holy Roman Empire became West Francia, or as we know it: France.
The Celts in Britain (the ones from Gaul and the ones there from the Pleistocene) were in turn displaced by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes that are the descendants of the modern English.
And the Huns remained to live in HUNgary.]
Which opens up a whole new can of worms, viz., to what extend did they displace, culturally subjugate, or politically subjugate the peoples they invaded?
Except for the adoption of Christianity and the Roman alphabet, along with Latin based languages (in the case of French and Spanish etc), I believe they sacked and destroyed everything.
Another Germanic tribe I failed to mention were the Vandals. Yes, that was their name. Guess why it's called vandalism today?
[Except for the adoption of Christianity and the Roman alphabet, along with Latin based languages (in the case of French and Spanish etc), I believe they sacked and destroyed everything.
Another Germanic tribe I failed to mention were the Vandals. Yes, that was their name. Guess why it's called vandalism today?]
But I'm not sure that the invaders actually displaced the native population. I can think of some cases in which that has happened--Hungary, the Crimea, Japan, North America, parts of India. But I can think of others in which mixing occurred but the native population remained--the rest of Russia, South America, the Middle East, for that matter most of the Empire under Rome. Latin effectively replaced the local languages in Gaul, and the assumption of a new language by a conquered people is fairly common. And yet as you point out the people of Gaul and Italy never ceased speaking Latin, even though they were dominated by any number of invaders. And Italians still look like Italians, and Greeks like Greeks, over a thousand years since the barbarian invasions.
All of which leads me to suspect that the flow of genes, although it does occur, is frequently far from complete and can vary depending on circumstance--e.g., the difference in the fate of the NA populations in North and South America, which seems to have been a result of different styles, the Spaniards conquering and the British displacing, or of India, which adopted the English language to some extent but remained largely itself, and Australia, in which the natives were rapidly outnumbered by the invaders.
[And the Huns remained to live in HUNgary. ]
Some tribes called Magyars Huns, at the same time other ethnically and linquistically different ones were called the same (Mongols) Generally nomadic warrior tribes from Asia were refered as Huns.
Arti
The term 'Hun' was used frequently by the US press (to save space, presumably) referring to Germans during The World War (later known as WWI). My grandfather routinely called my grandmother "Hon", and on one of these occaisions a playmate of my father (who was 5 when the war ended) said to another, "See, I told they're Germans!"
Bob
"hon" in Balmerese (local dialect) is a term of familiarity or endearment, usually spoken by a waitress to customers in several sections of the city.
In Hampden, there is a Hon cafe, and an annual "Hon" contest, where ladies show up with big hair, and much merriment ensues.
WWI hysteria got German Street in downtown Baltimore renamed Redwood Street. When West Redwood was eliminated from Liberty to Howard by the construction of the Civic Center. Later, the block from Howard to Eutaw was also eliminated. A movement to return the name to German Street for the piece from Eutaw to Greene arose, but it went nowhere.
At BSM our #1 switch came from the intersection of Liberty and Redwood Streets. Today that switch would be hanging 4 feet over the center of the soccer field at today's Baltimore Arena (the renamed Civic Center). I'm happy that we salvaged it in 1959! It was stored in somebody's back yard until 1969, when it was installed at Falls Road.
Hey Fred, I like this post of yours. I AGREE with you on this issue.
Incidentally, did you ever see the black series, "Roc" starring the very good Charles S. Dutton? I think it aired on the Fox Channel.
I see we have a mutual liking for "The Honeymooners" (Art Carney as Ed Norton MADE that show, with his expert comic timing and goofey facial features!).
The thing about the show was that whether it was done intentionally or not, the series was sort of a 90's black version of the "Honeymooners". The main character, Roc, was a sanitation worker in Baltimore, and his wife was a nurse. In the household (Roc and his wife had no children) was Roc's brother, Joey, an erstwhile musician who was always bumming for a job and Roc's father, a cantanerous man always making references to the past accomplishments of blacks but being critical of the young generation. It was well done and was a lower-middle class black sit-com as opposed to the upper-middle class setting of The Cosby Show.
Doug aka BMTman
Glad to know we are on the same page for a change. What a relief. I got tired of the feud to be honest. I do remember Roc. Why I blanked out of that show I don't know. It wasn't that long ago. So you like Norton, too? I always looked forward to his appearance. He made me laugh all the time. He actually stole the show.
......amos & andy was not so bad & i dont watch much TV anyway .....
I enjoyed the Honeymooners because "Ralph" was a bus driver. Some times he would tell his wife some funny things that happened on the bus. After all, there is a Jackie Gleason bus depot somewhere in the NYC city area (I think?)
Chuck Greene
Don't forget the Irish.
I saw old vidieos of amos & andy .& it was not so bad.. The trash you see on the TV today like the discontinued
""in living color"" & the other stereotype ethnic programming with this B.S. that I dont watch after some of the
news goes off & if its not a good PBS or star trek or watching some decent special interest vidieo or dvd
or going out and shooting a vidieo myself to relax with like rail transit scenic travel by car vidieos & or
drum section vidieos i shoot of this bad ass drum section we have here in my town then the TV goes off !!
( of cource I am always interested in vidieos of transit systems of all types & the history of highway construction etc. )
good old classic cars tube audio equipment vidieo recording gear audio recording classic cars buses & transit equipment!
the old amos & andy was nice compaired to this BS you see on the TV today.....& I refuse to watch it !!!..
777: Then you ought to be on Spike Lee's case. Just because he is an African-American doesn't give him a free pass to portray black people as a bunch of ignorant and violent punks----as he did in "Do The Right Thing". If there were any bigots out in the audience they were fortified with their pre-conceived notions about African-Americans. I regret to this day I saw the picture, and I can guarantee in writing that I will never view that montrosity again. Ever since that time I have had no use for Lee. And to make matters even worse, he made Italian-Americans like me furious at the way we were portrayed in "Son of Sam".
Fred, FYI, I recall that black women's groups were upset with Spike Lee when he made a movie called "Girl 6" (about the phone sex industry). They protested his film saying that it made black women look like sluts and one dimensional characters (without lives). Actually, I LIKE the way Lee shoots his movies (they usually have great camera work), but I do find his characters too much like stereotypes of whatever group he is focusing on (blacks, Jews, Italians, Puerto Ricans, whatever) Some of his film-school buddies like John Turtorro always appear in his films, which shows some amount of loyalty.
As for "Summer of Sam," you left out the fact that an Italian character is viewed by Lee in a sympathetic light: the guy who was into "punk-rock" music and wanted to be different than his "gumba" neighbors. Unfortunately, at the end I think the guy gets beaten by a mob of thugs who mistake him for "The Son of Sam".
The moral to "Summer of Sam" was that being different shouldn't be seen as an affront to other people's cultures and sensibilities. And certainly no one should be punished for being different.
BTW, I can't fault Spike's enthusiasum for the boyz in the blue and the orange uniforms at MSG :-)
Doug aka BMTman
[Actually, I LIKE the way Lee shoots his movies (they usually have great camera work), but I do find his characters too much like
stereotypes of whatever group he is focusing on (blacks, Jews, Italians, Puerto Ricans, whatever)
As for "Summer of Sam," you left out the fact that an Italian character is viewed by Lee in a sympathetic light: the guy who was into "punk-rock" music and wanted to be different than his "gumba" neighbors. Unfortunately, at the end I think the guy gets beaten by a mob of thugs who mistake him for "The Son of Sam".
The moral to "Summer of Sam" was that being different shouldn't be seen as an affront to other people's cultures and sensibilities. And certainly no one should be punished for being different.]
Spike Lee's movies indeed do stereotype various groups to the point of satire. And satire is very difficult to pull off. It worked in "Do the Right Thing," also fairly well in "Girl 6," but not IMO in "Summer of Sam." In that movie, the treatment of Italian-Americans came off as mean-spirited with very little of the subtle humor that's necessary for a successful satire. The one sympathetic character (Richie, I think his name was) himself was deeply flawed, working as a gay hooker. But, I suppose not every movie's going to turn out as intended.
Blue and Orange happen to be my favorite colors, and my baseball room in our home is nothing but blue and orange furniture, paint, rugs and venetian blinds. But when it comes to basketball it's purple and gold, ironically two colors that I find repugnant as a combo. Go figure.
>>>>>> it was felt by naacp that the show reflected poorly on people of color <<<<<
The heart of the NAACP objection to Amos 'n Andy was that was the only depiction of people of color on the air, and due to the de facto segregation all over the country at the time, with few white people knowing anyone of color, (and it is hard for anyone born after 1950 to appreciate what it was like then) it was feared that white America would believe these characters were accurate representations of people of color. If the same scripts were presented on TV today everyone would get a good laugh from them.
Sanford and son had to have had a lot of the story lines highjacked.
There timing of presentation was when the TV industry had people of colour and in every day charactors. So they had ligitimacy.
avid
Interesting fact about "Sanford & Son": I recall reading that comedian Redd Foxx based the character of Fred G. Sanford on an Uncle of his who indeed owned a junk yard!
Another thing about "Sanford & Son": it lacked political commentary and social relevance, unlike "All in the Family". This allows "Sanford" to work well in syndication and be enjoyed for years to come without appearing "dated."
Doug aka BMTman
previous message should have said Sanford and son highjacked story lines from Amos & Andy.
avid
I loved the show too. It ran for a few years in the 1950's, but, ironically, Amos (Jones) had a very small part in it. The Kingfish, George Stevens, and Andrew H. Brown were the leading characters. There was also Lightning, the slow shuffling custodian at the Mystic Knights of the Sea Lodge Hall. My favorite character, however, was the incompetent lawyer, Algonquin J. Calhoun. I would laugh until my sides hurt watching that guy. To be sure, it did portray a few of the characters in a bad light, but did anyone see the highly acclaimed "Do The Right Thing"? Spike Lee may be black, but what character in that movie was portrayed well? That guy made all his black brothers look like a bunch of punks. I don't know why he wasn't criticized for it.
......mr jersey mike are you saying on you first post that you believe i am mentally ill ?? .....with what proff??
are you a ""head shrink"" a doctor in that field or something like that ?? & or related training etc.......
I do agree with you on the peace & respect for a diversity of transit related views.........not bad...!!
But when you have a few east coaster ""know it alls"" & some these idiots think they can run all rail transit systems
& they are the only ones who know how this is done then no wonder there is so much """flamage"""
the mental illness you described better fits those who fit the above as I am no ""expert"" on rail transit ..!!!
& I would be the FIRST to tell you so .......not like some of the typical types described above........thank you..
Salaam;
Once again you have misread the original post. Mike said:
"Note to Heypaul: What does this rate on th "Heypaul scale of wackyness". ... I think I caught one of those mental illnesses you have."
Clearly Mike is referring to Heypaul's well known reputation for mental illness.
His only comment about you was about your lack of a sense of humor. Don't sue him for libel. Your post here would be Exhibit "A" in his defense.
Tom
salaam allah questioned jersey mike's training as a psychiatrist... jersey mike recently finished my 3 volume study on the psychopathology of the average railfan... he is in the midst of completing my correspondence course in psychiatry and neurosurgery, a comprehensive course that can be completed in 3 weeks...
i have studied his first post and i think he only said that salaam allah's posts were devoid of humor... he should have added that salaam allah's posts are devoid of humor just like every other railfan's posts... he did not say that salaam allah was any crazier than the typical railfan... after many months of study of the posts on subtalk, i find that all subtalkers are equally mentally disturbed...
I try to add humor to my posts but the result is that I only prove that I'm one of the crowd----that is mentally disturbed. How can railfans, fanatics that we are, be anything but a little off our trollies?
to the last 4 in thread I have a lot of sense of humor remember my post on ""KOSHER DOGS AT PENN STATION""
( in newark ) ......!!!!!!!!
Knowing you Fred, you are off your trolley anyway.
I do not disagree, but does that mean you're not a little strange, too? And that goes for many others in this site. I don't believe it is possible to be a railfan nut and not be a little low in the basket.
You may not have heard about the controversies over a proposed park on the Brooklyn Piers. The park planners are proposing to close off Jorolemon Street to vehicles, but to allow people to walk down the park on foot. The main access points would be Old Fulton Street and Atlantic Avenue.
Jorolemon Street residents are fighting the park, saying that having people from outside the neighborhood walk past their houses will destroy their quality of life. They are throwing up alternatives in an effort to stop the plan.
One idea they are now pushing is to use the emergency escape tunnel from the Clark Street Subway station to Furman Street as a pedestrian access route to the park. People here at City Planning want to know-- is there such a tunnel? How wide is it? How high is it? Will people have to crawl to the park single file, or is it a realistic suggestion?
City Planning should be able to get drawings from the TA without too much trouble. A little delay maybe....
Call the Stations division at 2 Broadway. I know that whenever I request drawings from previous capital contracts, or MOW drawings, the TA usually comes through, if the drawings in question still exist.
Just out of curiousity, how hard would it be for just a regular "civilian" person to recieve drawings of existing subway stations from the MTA?
Inquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Boston, MA
Most agencies don't want to bother giving out drawings to the public. If you have a good reason, like you're writing a book or working on some other project, you might be able to get help from some kind of publicity office, but that's still no guarantee that whatever department that they'll in turn get it from will co-operate. Even if they're willing to help, they'll want a letter from you telling them what you want and why you want it.
You should also be prepared to pay for the copies, but that still doesn't mean that they're going to want to spend the time to help you.
You could also request them under the freedom of information act!
I don't know if the Freedom of Information Act covers this type of information. Also, I'm not sure that the MTA, being incorporated the way it is, is subject to such law.
AFAIK, it covers anything that's not legitimately classified. But I don't know if it even applies to local governments.
FOIA is a federal law that AFAIK applies only to federal agencies. BUT the Fredom of Information Law is a NYS law that applies to NYS agencies. I don't know whether it applies to the TA either. Anyone who is that interested can find a reference to the FOIL in the Index to McKinney's Consolidated Laws, which can be found, among other places, in the NY Public Library branch at Madison and 34th.
It is my understanding that FOIA requires the government agency to provide the requested information. However, you may have to pay the cost of copying. Most government agencies have particular persons designated as FOIA compliance agents. However, the agency is only required to provide that information that it has in its own files, not to do research to satisfy the particular interests of the person asking for the information. All of that said, it is very possible that the MTA would happily supply you with information without a need for a formal FOIA request. Have your tried just asking them for it?
It is my understanding, based upon some limited professional experience in this area of law, that FOIA requires the government agency to provide the requested information. However, you may have to pay the cost of copying. Most government agencies have particular persons designated as FOIA compliance agents. However, the agency is only required to provide that information that it has in its own files, not to do research to satisfy the particular interests of the person asking for the information. All of that said, it is very possible that the MTA would happily supply you with information without a need for a formal FOIA request. Have your tried just asking them for it?
So let me get this straight. Joralemon Street is now open to vehicle AND pedestrian traffic. The city is proposing to exclude the vehicle traffic but allow the pedestrian traffic to continue. The neighborhood considers this to be detrimental because of the pedestrians going past their houses. Absent the proposal, pedestrians would still be going past, but so would vehicles, right?
To put this symbolically, V+P=good. P alone=bad. And 2+2=3, right?!
(So let me get this straight. Joralemon Street is now open to vehicle AND pedestrian traffic. The city is proposing to exclude the
vehicle traffic but allow the pedestrian traffic to continue. The neighborhood considers this to be detrimental because of the
pedestrians going past their houses. Absent the proposal, pedestrians would still be going past, but so would vehicles, right? To put this symbolically, V+P=good. P alone=bad. And 2+2=3, right?!)
Wrong, and here is the crux. 50 years ago, the Brooklyn Piers were a bustling shipping area, and Furman Street was full of trucks. Most of the trucks probably went down Old Fulton Street or Atlantic Avenue, but you can bet some went down Jorolemon Street. You can bet some longshoremen walked down the street to go to work.
But for 30 years, the piers have been semi-abandoned, giving Jorolemon Street residents the "right" to have no one go down their street. Yes the street it open, but it is seldom used by "outsiders."
Now a park is proposed. That will lead to "outsiders" walking down Jorolemon St to the park, since that is the most direct route from the subway stations in Downtown Brooklyn. Jorolemon Street residents want to stop the park, or at least force subway riders to walk 1/2 mile out of the way to Atlantic or Old Fulton by erecting a gate.
The same issue arose when we tried to change the zoning to allow supermarkets in industrial areas, reversing a 1970s prohibition intended to preserve manufacturing. "We want a park, not a Pathmark" was chanted at community meetings. But when you propose a park, they don't want that either.
The same issue arose when we tried to change the zoning to allow supermarkets in industrial areas, reversing a 1970s prohibition intended to preserve
manufacturing. "We want a park, not a Pathmark" was chanted at community meetings. But when you propose a park, they don't want that either.
And possibly, this surprises you? Reminds me of the public hearing ( go to these things, they're really quite fun) that the DOT held for the SI Expressway. Everyone agreed there was a problem and everyone agreed that the proposed solutions would not work, or were the wrong solution, but they still wanted the problem fixed. Even my 3 year old at the time daughter saw the problem with that logic.
Is Joralemon entirely residential at that point? If you make it vehicle-free, where will residents park their cars? As I remember Brooklyn Heights had convoluted alternate-side parking regulations to begin with. Is this park actually going to be built or is another pipe dream.
(Is Joralemon entirely residential at that point?)
Yes, and that is the problem. Montigue Street is commercial, but doesn't go down under the BQE to Furman Street and the piers. Jorelemon does go through.
(If you make it vehicle-free, where will residents park their cars?)
The idea is to block the street at the point where it goes under the BQE, allowing pedestrians and emergency vehicles but not other vehicles.
(Is this park actually going to be built or is another pipe dream.)
I wouldn't bet on anything getting done in NYC. There is a handful of residents opposed vs. overwhelming support of elected officials and even the Brooklyn Heights Association. But the people opposed are affluent whites with a lawyer. In other words, it's doomed. The BHA is about to find out that the "process" groups like theirs has imposed is an equal opportunity obstruction.
["We want a park, not a Pathmark" was chanted at community meetings. But when you propose a park, they don't want that either.]
And, of course, the neighborhoods get their wishes - neither a park nor a Pathmark.*
* = No one outside NYC would want a Pathmark, of course, that being a downscale, bankrupt chain.
It's the same story, NIMBY's. They oppose this, they oppose that.
They pretty much oppose any change from current conditionss.
Why don't they say "we oppose everything" and let everyone know their true motive, because it isn't environment or crime or quality of life, they are simply selfish people.
Everyone is selfish. Some of us just don't feel as threatened by change.
[You may not have heard about the controversies over a proposed park on the Brooklyn Piers. The park planners are proposing to close off Jorolemon Street to vehicles, but to allow people to walk down the park on foot. The main access points would be Old Fulton Street and Atlantic Avenue.
Jorolemon Street residents are fighting the park, saying that having people from outside the neighborhood walk past their houses will destroy their quality of life. They are throwing up alternatives in an effort to stop the plan.
One idea they are now pushing is to use the emergency escape tunnel from the Clark Street Subway station to Furman Street as a pedestrian access route to the park.]
It took a while for the import of this to fully dawn on me. There is a plan to use taxpayer money to convert the emergency tunnel to an access route just so the poor darlings on Joralemon Street won't have "outsiders" (and we all know what that means) walking past their houses. Let's all wring our hands in worry - the aforementioned poor darlings are terrified that the outsiders will break into their lovingly restored brownstones, steal their Range Rovers, and maybe even ravish their beautiful virginal daughters.
Spending one dollar of taxpayer money on this abomination would be worse than flushing a million dollars down the toilet. Not that the city's any stranger to doing that, of course.
[Spending one dollar of taxpayer money on this abomination would be worse than flushing a million dollars down the toilet. Not that the city's any stranger to doing that, of course.]
I think they're more into flushing billions. Park Avenue LIRR tunnel indeed!
I think I've had it for the day . . .
I have a number of MTA Annual Reports from the late 1960's and early 1970's which I want to give away vs. throwing out.
Any ideas where or to whom?
I am very interested. Please e-mail me.
-Harry
R110B schedule posted at http://members.aol.com/orentree/R110B.htm. The R142 page is now down for some reason, I'll investigate and put it back up ASAP.
Thanks for the R110B schedule. I'll try to catch the R110B southbound tomorrow at approximately 10:20 at 34th Street. I'll be in the first car.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
Actually it's Thank you Trevor Logan, who gave him the schedule!
Flxible Metro B #3511
Its both of us since you gave me the schedule and I did the work up making and uploading the page.
R142 is back up. I got it up shortly after I posted it was down.
When a locomotive is hooked up back to back or if it is in back of the train, the engineer puts the controller in a direction what keeps the engines from moving in oppside directions?
I heard it had something to do with the jumper cables. Anyone have more info?
It's quite simple, sort of. On MU equipment the reverser position is set by energizing one of two trainline wires. On NYCT equipment it is the #1 & #2 wires, 1 being foward and 2 being reverse. However, when units are coupled back to back the position of the #1 wire and #2 wire reverse in the trainline jumper or the electric portion. Hence, if the #1 wire is energized in the lead unit, by the second unit being coupled back-to-back, the #1 wire will energize the #2 wire in the second unit. It will then run in the same direction ast the first.
For the foreseeable future, it looks like Bay Ridge ain't the place to be when it comes to mid-Manhattan access. According to The Bay Ridge Paper, the south side of the Manhattan Bridge is now not due to reopen till *2004*, and the 2nd Avenue Stubway project is going to keep the Manhattan Broadway Line tracks closed for the next *15 years*!
I've been desiring to move back to the land of my birth, but I'll stay in Auburndale or somewhere along the LIRR where Manhattan access is 20 minutes away.
Where are the Bay Ridge politicians on this? Are they asleep, impotent or both?
www.forgotten-ny.com
At least Bay Ridge has the express bus option via the X27. You can bet the MTA will add more x-bus routes to the area if the MB projects drag on. Or residents will just drive in on the already creaky Gowanus.
>>>>Or residents will just drive in on the already creaky Gowanus.<<<
The Gowanus is another issue; I'm surprised a truck hasn't fallen through onto 3rd Avenue, like the Miller Hwy in 1973. Bay Ridge is saddled both with superslow subway service to Manhattan, and an antiquated highway. Unfortunately the solution is to close it and replace it, causing an even greater headache. And, Bay Ridgeites have nowhere to go since usurious bridge and tunnel tolls make it impossible to go through NJ.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why would the MTA add more X-Buses in Bay Ridge? They won't add them in SI in areas that have doubled their population.
If they had only started to build either a replacement bridge or a sbway tunnel in the 1980's....
If they had only started to build either a replacement bridge or a subway tunnel in the 1980's....
Why would they need to close Broadway for so long. Cant they start tunneling from 125th Street, and then close Broadway when they get close to 59th Street?
Why do the N/Q tracks over the Manhattan Bridge have to be closed while the Stubway is built? And why on Earth does the entire Broadway BMT need to be shut down while the Stubway is built? Do the City and the State have ANY clue as to how much WORSE overcrowding will get on the E, F and 7 lines? Have they really gone mad?
>>>And
why on Earth does the entire Broadway BMT need to be shut down while the Stubway is built?<<<
It won't be. The local tracks will be open, then as now. My point is that the express tracks will be closed for the better part of the next two decades; a whole generation will never see express ervice on the N/R.
ww.forgotten-ny.com
Whew! That's a relief to hear. Shutting down the whole line would be nuts. But what's going to happen when the North (B/D) side of the MB shuts down, which it's supposed to do in a year or so?
I didnt' see the article, but my guess is that they will have to shut down the line -- both sides -- to do the Canal Street flip and send the express trains to Lower Manhattan, with the locals going over the Brooklyn Bridge. The STUBWAY itself should be no problem.
Of course, if you are going to build the southern section of the Second Avenue, you don't need the Canal Street flip. Instead, you could hook the Second Avenue into the Nassau Street Subway (rather than building the Whitehall Street portion) and get the trains to Brooklyn that way.
They don't need to do that flip period. Just switch over to the local tracks between Prince and Canal. This is what they were planning to do with the N anyway when the Bridge opened fully, so the Sea Beach riders would still have their lower Manhattan service. (In the other direction, it would still go over the brisge, for Bklyn riders.
With what they're talking about doing, Brooklyn riders to midtown would be hurt, because they would have to ride the slow tunnel/lower Manhattan route to reach the express, and the more direct bridge would carry them to the local. Yes, they would still have 6th Av, but Broadway has a few benefits over that (the connection to the Lexington Exp. at Union Sq., or the 7th Av and easier connection to the 7 at 42nd St.)
And this reminds me of something noone has thought of! What about if the Bridge is still flip-flopping sides, and the 6th Av. side is closed? The Brighton and West End now become locals (they always get the express tracks over the N, because apparently there is greater demand for express service to Midtown on those lines)
And when the Broadway side is closed, it will require switching to get from the tunnel to the local tracks.
With the uncertain future of the bridge, they should not spend the time and money to do something like that.
(With the uncertain future of the bridge, they should not spend the time and money to do something like that.)
Perhaps the MTA theory is that if the bridge is lost, and passengers on 50 trains to Dekalb Avenue have to squeeze into 25 to 30 trains through the Montigue Tunnel, and waste an extra 10 minutes going through Lower Manhattan packed like sardines, at least their train should run express from City Hall.
Whoa Larry! Are you telling me there are tracks on the Brooklyn Bridge? I was told they had been torn up long ago. Are they going to build new tracks there? And why would the Sea Beach and 4th Avenue Local be designated to go over the bridge? Get back to me on this will you Larry? I thought I had learned most the facts, but this new info dispensed by you has thrown me for a curve.
It's quite obvious he mixed up two bridges.
Yes how embarrasing, I mistyped. Maybe I have trouble typing out the Manhattan Bridge because I'm so mad at it. At least I can walk over the Brooklyn Bridge a couple of times a week.
Maybe that's the solution. Just announce that the MTA is building a new free health club, and build a new station right at the foot of the Manhattan Bridge terminating the trains there. Convert the tracks to additional walkways. Convert the Canal Street station to a ternminal. Run the trains in two sections, and encourage people to walk across the bridge, rather then get packed through the Montigue Tunnel.
Unless the vibrations from all those people walking across would cause torsion and crack the bridge.
Unless the vibrations from all those people walking across would cause torsion and crack the bridge.
Reminds me of that National Lampoon's "Not the New York Times" newspaper, that had as its front page, a story about the Queensborough Bridge collapsing because of all those pounding feet from the NYC Marathon ....
--Mark
Something very similar to that happened some years ago. I think it was in San Francisco...there was some kind of celebration. Pedestrians packed the bridge, and the stationary weight actually caused the suspension bridge to sag dramatically in the middle!
I'd hate to be on a train that got stuck in the middle of the Manny B...how would they rescue passengers if that ever happened?
Israel - the Maccabee games a couple of years ago, a bridge collapsed under the weight of athletes jumping in rhythm during the closing ceremonies.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the crowd on the Golden Gate drastically exceeded expectations, and they estimated that it was the heaviest load that the bridge had ever carried.
how would they rescue passengers if that ever happened?
Logical: Have the NYPD halt traffic, walk the people along the road to the closest side. (Don't do this during rush).
Probable: Let the people sit in ignorance of the situation for 10 minutes, make garbled incoherent announcement. Then take the train in front and/or behind out of service. Use it to pull the train w/passenegers to the nearest stop. -or- do what the LIRR did when the first DE30AC (#406) + set of 4 C-3s on the Oyster Bay line failed. Evacuate everyone into the train behind (pulled by F-7a, pushed by MP-15AC, 5 coaches in the middle), and have it push the dead train (w/the rescue train in service picking up passengers) to the last stop at about 10 MPH, causing huge traffic problems behind.
And that statement by you has put a big cloud over what had up to now been a real great day. The Sea Beach as a local. That eats my insides.
"Where are the Bay Ridge politicians on this? Are they asleep, impotent or both?"
An encephalectomy is a prerequisite for election in a Brooklyn district.
Derailment of 2 train st Dekalb Ave. 3 cars off the tracks and around 65 people hurt. Just heard it on the news on channel 5. Check the 11 or morning news for more info.
There is no DeKalb Ave. on the 2!
Rob ... it's a Brooklyn bound B train that derailed. 60 injuries, 10 sent to hospitals, 3 cars derailed, low speed derailment, B service expected to be out until the AM rush. Passengers reported hearing a loud bang and then the derailment occurred. Track conditions in area currently being investigated.
--Mark
Breaking new on channel 5, #2 Train derails at DeKalb Avenue in Brooklyn, Details unknown as of now!
Flxible Metro B #3511
It is a B train at DeKalb according to WCBS 880. 10-15 injuries. service suspended on BDQ.
as of 11pm acccording tp WCBS--20-25 minor injuries. Service still out.
>># 2 TRAIN DERAILS TONIGHT!
...does the 2 even GO to DeKalb in Brooklyn??
No, not at all.
No. DeKalb Avenue is served by the D, M, N, R, and Q trains.
10:44pm
Southbound "B" train, in the spaghetti tracks south of De Kalb Avenue, some people with serious head injuries, sounds like car damage.
I'll keep a watch on this one. Most likely an R68A, could also be an Alsthom R68 or a Slant R40. THREE UNITS are off the rails, in that tight space, there is going to be some work for the Body Doctors, if they can get them out of there in one piece.
wayne
I KNOW, CHANNEL 5 SAID #2 AND THEN CAME BACK AND SAID IT WAS B!
Flxible Metro B #3511
Channel 11 said it was an N train.
According to transmissions I picked up on the radio, the following service changes are in effect as a result of the derailment at DeKalb Av:
B, D, N, and R Suspended
B No service between 2nd Av F station and 36th St
D No service between 2nd Av F station and Prospect Park. Franklin Shuttle Service disrupted due to power off.
N Train Service disrupted between Whitehall and 36th Sts.
R Train Service disrupted between Whitehall and 59th Sts.
How are the M and Q Trains affected? We shall see...
-Stef
This just in: Franklin Shuttle Service was just restored as of 12:35AM.
-Stef
Why can't they set up the power system so the power can be running on the FS but not on the Brighton Line?
I don't understand how that system works. Let me tell you though, power was eventually restored. The first D Train to go through to the Bronx after the derailment was the 1:23 out of Stillwell. Personnel cleared things up relatively fast.
-Stef
Even made the Local NBC and ABC 10PM Tuesday Night news in Hawaii which was 400AM EST Wed, but only said derailment and injuries.
They must have pulled the news story off Subtalk!
--Mark
It wouldn't surprise me. The server was *hammered* all day yesterday. The CPU load averages were much higher than normal for most of the midday period. Clearly people who wouldn't normally spend much time on Subtalk were here to read about the derailment...
-Dave
sorry david... i miss "subway_crash" and i just couldn't resist...
LOL
andee...don't encourage me .... you'll become an accessory to my screwiness :-)
And I didn't hear them say that!
That adds fuel to my claim that the TV news has the brain power of SubTalk's resident salted, cured meat product.
There's a sale at Penny's!!!
In reading the messages on the subject, as usual the media confuses the issue.
Channel 4 says BDNR all out.
There are at least sixty injuries; they said it happened at 9:52PM.
From what it sounds like, the "B" train had made a stop at De Kalb.
A video clip shot on the platform showed a "B" train, clearly an R68A.
11:05PM - the media have been denied access to the platform area, this does not bode well.
wayne
I was watching channel 2 last night, they indicated that the media were denied access to the platform because of excessive heat conditions and the need for medical teams to have room to work. From his tone of voice Vince DeMentri, the reporter, seemed to accept that as a valid explanation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I take it this is the same Vince DiMentri whose wife is a host on QVC.
I've never watched QVC so I can't say for sure, but Vince has been a news reporter in New York for a number of years now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
06/21/2000
The media excels in inaccuracies. If there is a plane crash or derailment and there are fatalaties involved, every channel will have different numbers as to the loss of life. One channel will say 89 dead, another 97 dead etc. Where do the get these numbers? I hope there is no fabrication involved for ratings sake.
Bill "Newkirk"
There's been a derailment at DeKalb Avenue involving the B.
I'm not going to convey the information, I'm here to do something else.
On Channel 11, it was mentioned that the train had 10 cars. I'd like to know how R-68s have 10 cars in service.
Channel 5 just mentioned (I'm watching TV in another window) that the D and Q were suspended. I'd like to know why the Q would be running at 11PM to begin with.
I don't think the people who write the news know that some lines run part-time.
Channel 7 also reported that the train had 10 cars. Maybe pool reporting is responsible for the errors.
--Mark
Let's say they couldn't open by the time the Q started this morning? It is sort of helpful to say the Q can't run at the time so in the morning, people are prepared.
If it were an R40 (which it is not, the two weekenders are back at CI yard) it would be 10-cars, but it's an R68A, so it's eight - they don't know how to count.
I have switched over to Channel 2 (11:09pm) to see what THEY have to say. Channel 2 says the first TWO cars derailed and they say 30 to 50 injuries, none are life-threatening.
wayne
That's nothing! (The newscasters are not subway fans, and they probably assumed that all IND trains are 10 cars, and many people do not pay attention to when part time lines run, including conductors!)
But how about the morning after, WB11 news reports that the derailment was on the Lexington line on Flatbush between DeKalb and 168th St!
(Plus the thread right below where it was fisrs reported as being on the #2)
Sounds like a serious derailment occurred just as a Brooklyn-bound B Train was leaving the DeKalb station.
The scene -- even close to 45 minutes later, looks chaotic (I'm watching the 11'O Clock News).
The story is still unfolding. We probably won't know the details till morning.
Doug aka BMTman
Channel 7 reports 60 injuries. They say between up to 4 cars of a 10 car B train (the first four) derailed upon leaving DeKalb Avenue. I don't know if its Manhattan-bound or Coney-Island bound. Passengers reported hearing a loud bang and then the derailment occurred.
Details to follow, I'm sure.
--Mark
More details ....
100 people on train, 60 injuries, 10 sent to hospitals. Last injured person removed from train by 11:20pm. B train service predicted to be out until the AM rush. Cause not yet known. Low speed derailment. Most of train in the station. Investigating track condition in derailment area. Brooklyn-bound B train. 1st 3 cars derailed.
If I hear anything else in the next 20 mins, I'll post before retiring for the evening.
Live from Rockland, this is Mark Train reporting ....
Additional info ... 3rd car of the train derailed, not the first four as previosuly reported.
Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow.
--Mark
They say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe, the train is 8-cars. Looks like the first three cars of the train derailed; it's an R68a.
The last of the injured have been removed by 11:15pm.
Mayor Guiliani gave a briefing but didn't shed a lot of light on things. Someone said the "E" word (explosion); in that spot that would be a shoe dropping, I would guess causing an arc
wayne
We have this out before UPI even got it on the wire (I checked - nothing there).
--Mark
Kudos to the "Subtalk Network News Team"
Now back to you Jim for the sports and weather.
avid
You mean "Todd" for the weather, SubTalk's resident weatherman.
...who is enjoying nice weather and wonderful transit and San Francisco this week...
Rode a "second order" Breda on the K/Ingleside MUNI yesterday (#1472) which has electronic destination signs, rather than curtain roll signs. Yellow LEDs are used, and they're much easier to read than the type being used on the new Boston Type-8 Bredas.
Todd, Did you ride the BART thru the Tube to Oakland Yet, if you get a cool operator, he will not block the window so you can see the speed
I still remember that BART train I took in June of 1981 which got up to 72 in the Transbay tube. Then out in Oakland, it hit 85.
If you remember a couple of years ago in that same location, an R68 D train derailed over that switch while under rehabilitation. Lets place bets that Track Dept will eat this one.
Channel 7 reported at about 5:40 AM that the delays could stretch into or beyond the AM rush, and then at about 6:08 that normal service had already been restored.
Anybody know the real deal?
Normal service, with minor delays, is running.
06/21/2000
I thought the (B)'s bypassed DeKalb Ave. Being it was about 10:00PM, I guess the (B)'s stop at DeKalb. This situation would have been more complicated if it was on the bypass track.
Bill "Newkirk"
The B train was running on the local track in that area because of a GO (work train) on the bypass track.
--Mark
Yes, the B never stops at DeKalb barring such reroutes. When it doesn't use the bypass track, it doesn't run to DeKalb Avenue to begin with.
Au contraire - if the train had been on the bypass track, the D & Q trains would have been totally unaffected, and the B could have gotten onto the Fourth Avenue line by stopping at DeKalb - the evacuation of passengers would have been more complex, but the impact of the derailment on the systm as a whole would have been much less.
subfan
The delrailment of the D Train was 5 years ago. I think it was after that delrailment, the TA decided to put timers there.
NY Times coverage of the derailment.
--Mark
Officials Focus on Subway Switch as Cause of Derailment (New York Times 6/22/2000)
--Mark
Just got back from vacation in time to see this AP story sent out tonight. I guess with the way he's been pitching lately, the Braves probably won't mind seeing Rocker ride the No. 7 train. The scary part is, I'm beginning to think the guy is actually a rail fan :)
****
NEW YORK –– John Rocker can't wait to get to New York next week – and ride the subway with all the people he insulted last year.
"The first day I get to New York, I'm getting on the (No.) 7 train," the Atlanta Braves reliever told USA Today Baseball Weekly, which hits the newsstands Wednesday. "I'm taking it to Shea Stadium. I won't be in a cab. I won't be on the bus. I'll be on that train.
"And I'm looking forward to it."
Rocker said he won't initiate any conversations with people on the train, "but if someone wants to talk to me, that's fine."
It was that same subway line that Rocker insulted in an interview with Sports Illustrated last December.
"Imagine having to take the 7 train looking like you're (in) Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing.
"The biggest thing I don't like about New York are the foreigners," Rocker said in the Sports Illustrated interview. "You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country?"
After the story came out, Rocker was suspended for a month and fined
$20,000 by commissioner Bud Selig. The players association appealed,
and an arbitrator reduced the penalty to a two-week suspension and $500 fine.
The Braves also fined Rocker $5,000 last month for threatening the
Sports Illustrated reporter who wrote the story revealing Rocker's
offensive comments about gays, minorities and foreigners.
Rocker was sent down to the minors the following day, but was recalled
last week when Rudy Seanez torn a ligament in his right arm.
New Yorkers are poised for Rocker's return to the city June 29 for a four-game series with the Mets. Rocker is also looking forward to it.
"I'm not scared, I'm not intimidated in the least," he said. "Come on, what are they going to do to me but boo me? I hope they do.
"The worst thing they could do to me there is have no reaction. No
reaction at all. ... I'd hate that.
"I want to get booed. That fires me up. Look at what happened last year in New York. I didn't give up an earned run at Shea or Yankee in the playoffs. Those people bring out the best in me."
I don't think John Rocker will last 30 seconds on the # 7 line. There are very crazy people who ride the subways and people will literally kill him. He has insulted everybody in this great city. This is how professionals can get away with something like this. He has made racial remarks, seen a shrink, got suspended, went to the minors and he still criticizing NYC. Nothing will change this individual. In my opinion, he should be out of baseball. Darryl Strawberry had so many chances. He even had cancer at 1 time. The Yankees dedicated their 98?! season to him And what did he do in 99? He was arrested for drugs once again. This is why I've lost love for this game- because professionals can get away with so much.
A little Advice to John Rocker: You better NOT Ride my R36 # 7 train!!! I don't think you can take the heat from us!!! And please retire from baseball- people like you make it a total disgrace not only to us, but to yourself, your teammates, and your Atlanta Brave fans. Have a nice day!
R36Gary
[I don't think John Rocker will last 30 seconds on the # 7 line. There are very crazy people who ride the subways and people will literally kill him...A little Advice to John Rocker: You better NOT Ride my R36 # 7 train!!!]
I'm glad you weren't on the #7 trains that I rode yesterday. The only person that I saw acting strangely was the TO, who jumped out of his cab as the doors were closing at Willits Point (where I had just disembarked), stood in the door to keep it from closing, and asked whether having the lights on in the car interfered with taking video through the window in the front door. "Only underground" was my reply.
Car 9684 R36WF.
Peace.
Bob
Seasoned #7 riders will guide him to the R-33 single, the C/R will cut out the doors and lock the storm doors. He'll have to sweat it out.
As crowded as the #7 is, I doubt anyone would recognize him ...
BTW, the best way to deal with John Rocker should you happen to find him sitting next to you on the #7 is to politely welcome him to NYC, thus showing that his bigoted views of this city are short-sited. Any violent confrontation will only allow him to go back to Atlanta with a "see, I told you so" attitude.
>>>>> As crowded as the #7 is, I doubt anyone would recognize him <<<<
TV news yesterday evening showed a woman reporter on the #7 line showing a newspaper with a full page picture of John Rocker to a car full of riders (mostly Asian) and asking if anyone recognized the person in the photo.
The riders, in best NYC subway tradition, ignored her, said nothing and avoided eye contact.
Tom
Unless the Braves order Rocker not to ride the #7, he will board that train if he can find an entrance. He will need a map because I'm sure he has never ridden the NY Subway before and will have to be shown the way. Chances are a few people will get on his case, a few will actually welcome him as a celebrity with the feeling he "didn't mean us", and most will either not recognize him or just ignore him. That's my take on it. What do you think? BTW, It's about time the Mets made a statement and started to get back at the Braves, unless, that is, they want to be also rans again.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
It should be very interesting if John Rocker rides the #7 Corona Flushing line train. He's the equivalent to Salaamallah on SubTalk. I wonder if he'll say racial slurs to all the orientals that ride the #7 line as well as all of the other non-whites. Let's face it, John Rocker is off his Rocker.
BMTJeff
>>>>>> John Rocker is off his Rocker <<<<<<<<
Jeff;
You know that is not true. Rocker made inappropriate comments and certainly showed bad judgment in not realizing the fuss they would stir up, but sadly, he is no different than at least 50% of white Americans who look around to be sure no non whites are present before telling the latest racist joke, or worry about "those people" moving into their neighborhood.
Even Johnny Carson told racist anti Polish jokes on his television show until the network stopped him.
[Rocker made inappropriate comments and certainly showed bad judgment in not realizing the fuss they would stir up, but sadly, he is no different than at least 50% of white Americans who look around to be sure no non whites are present before telling the latest racist joke]
I am confident that the percentage of white Americans who tell racist jokes is well under 50%.
Peter;
I hope you are right, but I doubt it. At least it is no longer generally acceptable to be openly racist.
Tom
And getting smaller all the time.
Baseball isn't about making comments, it's about playing baseball.
The best thing the Mets can do is play ball. If they win, then they've made the statement that needs to be made.
Exactly Pigs. All the talk, flamage, and counter-charges don't amount to a hill of beans. The score, the final count, that says it all, and it's up to the Mets to put up or shut up. This is their chance to make a statement, put their foot in the sand and hold their ground.
Rocker without a uniform probably wouldn't be recognized, but the gang of reporters, TV crews and photographers that will be following him from the moment the Braves arrive in NYC will probably give him away (God knows, if this was Los Angeles they'd probably even have the TV stations' news helicopters following the No. 7 train Rocker was on like one of those highway chase incidents the LA media is famous for overdoing)
The Mayor has just made a statement and it turns out that there are 10 serious injuries out of the 50 or 60 injured passengers that have been reported.
The first 3 cars of a Brooklyn-bound B derailed just outside of the DeKalb platform, so because of the trains low speed, there were less serious injuries.
We'll probably get all the facts in the morning.
Doug aka BMTman
I saw this on CNN, too. Just as Doug mentioned, CNN says there are 50 injuries in this derailment.
Chaohwa
Chao-Hwa or WMATAGMOAGH - My Dad said there was another Metro tunnel fire just recently, yesterday or today, not sure. Did you hear anything of this?
wayne
It did happen last week. I am not sure about the details.
Chaohwa
Yep. An inbound green line train hit some debris on the tracks between College Park and Prince George's Plaza Stations. Then a fire started under the first car of the train. The 3 passengers suffered smoke-inhalation, the other 27 were OK. They were moved into the last 2 cars of the 4 car train to wait about an hour for a recovery train because the power was cut off so firefighters could get onto the tracks. Eventually, the passengers were walked along the trackbed to the recovery train which took them back to College Park. Both tracks were shut down until shortly before midnight, then I believe it was single tracked for the rest of the night. I'm not sure if both tracks reopened at all last night.
From Greenbelt, Maryland, this is WMATAGMOAGH reporting. We now go back to Brooklyn for more coverage of the derailment of the B train.
Is the DC Metro becoming a firetrap? How long before there is a fatality down there?
So far, its either one big fire a week or 2 or 3 small fires in as many days but no one has died yet. On my way home from Union Station on Saturday, I heard a lady telling someone how she got the trian before one of the fires and it sounded like it had happened while I was in NYC.
I'm going on today for about 4 hours for a photography lesson to improve my shots on the subway, hopefully I won't have any problems.
What a mess. I guess the B stops at Dekalb at that time. The tight turns and switches there has always been a danger. As a result the trains crawl through there.
To tell you the truth I do not like the trip over the Manny B (I can feel the bridge creaking), and then the slow switches and tight dangerous curves around Dekalb.
I'm not suprised about this derailment, since the tracks appear to be in poor shape, due to the constant bombardment by tight turning trains.
Sounds scary for the people on board. This should be a wake up call for the MTA to modernize Dekalb, but then again I don't think the word modernize is in the TA's vocabulary.
With B,D,N,R service out tonight it's gonna be a mess for alot of people who need to get to Brooklyn tonight. If tracks are damaged and train removal difficult, no service through Dekalb is going to seriously affect tomorrow AM's rush.
The recent derailment and draggings are inexcusable in the year 2000.
Cmmmon, this is year 2000, it's time to bring our subways up to speed with all the others.
Tight turns should be softened, tunnel lighting fixed, new trains replace old ones, Manny B should be replaced with a tunnel, and platform doors should be installed.
That is just a few things. NY should put more money into the system, and use it WISELY*
*-Using money wisely would be to replace aging infrastructure, such as the Manhattan bridge, with a new one or building a replacement tunnel.
How could the dragging have been further avoided, _without_ using exensive labor and parts to retrofit cars which (unfortuneately) are about to leave the system? I think the fact that the kid didn't die is remarkable, and the systems in place worked perfectly. The conductor checked the train, as he's supposed to, and when he saw the kid, he pulled the brake, as he's supposed to. Is that not a working system? I sit not a testament against OPTO or ATO?
Don't think I'm unsympathetic to the child here, but with the amount of prople getting on and off the trains every single day, I think the TA is doing pretty well, especially since their resources are limited, and they have to strategically pick their battles.
If the TA was a large corperation with huge profit margins, then there would be no excuse for lack of modern equipment. If that were true, I guess the RedBrids would also have been gone for at least ten years by now as well!
Dave
"Is that not a working system? I sit not a testament against OPTO or ATO?"
Yes, actually it is. The conductor only did something that needed to be done because of lack of sensors.
It's an argument against OPTO on Rustbirds, but not an argument against OPTO in general.
It is however, a good argument against the parenthetical comment in your first sentence. It is fortunate those old clunkers are going away.
Having the conductor did definately save the kid's life, as well as ease the situation when the B derailed at Dekalb. In New York, having a conductor is a must, OPTO just can't work with the crowds and congestion on NYC subways.
I don't think the TA should spend money on fixing up the old redbirds.
Simply they shouldn't have been operating in the first place. Getting the first new cars in service takes too long because of all the beaurocracy and red tape.
No, having door sensors would have saved the kids life. Sensors are a lot cheaper than paying a whole other person to do something a machine can.
And didn't the conductor close the doors on this boys foot allowing the train to go in the first place? He was only correcting a mistake, a mistake that shouldn't have happened.
Of course, even if the MTA wanted to automate, it couldn't because of the unions. Well, they could, but better to save money on installing expensive machinery when the installation would only lead to people sitting around doing nothing when they previously actually did something.
"Cmmmon, this is year 2000, it's time to bring our subways up to speed with all the others ... platform doors should be installed."
All the others? No other subway system* in the U.S. or Canada has platform doors, IIRC. How many other subways in the world have platform doors? A handful at most.
*Rapid transit systems, including all-elevated systems and excluding light rail and people-mover systems: Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, San Francisco (BART), and Los Angeles.
I believe they are being installed in Hong Kong MTR. They are already used in Singapore, and I do believe part of the London tubes have them.
I'm not saying they should be installed at every station, but I think platform doors could be quite useful in the busier stations.
John;
Platform doors are only practical with ATO operation. AFAIK, there is ATO wherever they are used. You need the automatic control to get the trains to line up with the station doors without any waste of time. What you end up with is horizontal elevator technology.
A semi automatic system could be installed which would require a T/O to approach a station in a narrow speed range, and have ATO take over braking of the train for the stop.
A low tech solution would be to put up railings on the platforms between the door openings, with lines on the platform perpendicular to the track at the end of the railings, and allow waiting passengers on the station to wait outside the lines where the railings are until the train stops. This also helps the egress from the train, but would have to be enforced by fines for passengers not waiting behind the lines.
Tom
And how will you pay for the extra police to enforce the wait behind the line?
Some stations such as Metropolitan on the G have rails at platform edge near the end of the station and I have seen dimwits sitting on top of these railings! (Some of the same dimwits that insist on bike riding or skateboarding on the platforms or passageways. Yes- that is grounds for a present by the police! penalties can include ejection, fine, arrest.)
Platform doors would be impractical, the 75' cars and the 60' cars have doors that line up differently.
The R-62(a), the Redbirds, and the R-142(a) all have doors that would line up differently from each other. And with the 142 having staggered doors in blind motor cars, and symmetrical doors in cab cars, a reconfigured train would have a few problems. (if a < 10 car train was used). Nights, some trains operate short, pull up to different markers and the doors line up differently.
So funny. I had just passed through there exactly 5 hours earlier, thinking about how slow the curves are and that it would be nice if they realigned that whole stretch (all along Flatbush, instead of nto Fulton, then Ahsland, going under the IRT, if necessary. (e.g. The Brighton is going straight (up Flatbush) and it has the most curves) It took about 20 minutes to get from Court St. to Propspect Park. (Swung by to check out the new type side signs reported here on the Franklin Shuttle. Look almost like metal plates to me!)
>>>(Swung by to check out the new type side signs reported here on the Franklin Shuttle. Look almost like metal plates to me!)<<<
Ah, the more things change the more they stay the same.
Peace,
ANDEE
I'd like to see the subway get up to speed, period. Wishful thinking.
Last Friday, I finally caught the R-110B at Euclid Ave on the C.
That depature was an unusual 11:28AM departure, and I rode on car #3003. The car has decent A/C, too bad it had green(!) seats, and the P/A wasn't used :( But then it did show a dedicated map of the A service (even tho it was on the C line).
It is a nice car overall, and pretty decent after waiting a while to ride in a one-of-a-kind car.
Nick
You can see #3009 in the 207 Street Yard.
(3001-6 run on the C line, 3007-9 are used for parts)
Just take the 1 or 9 train to 215th Street. If you're coming from Dyckman St, you'll see it as the train enters 215th St. If you're coming from The Bronx, you can see it from the south end of the platform, almost unobstructed because the platforms at 215 are staggered.
I was at Brooklyn Bridge this past Thursday waiting for the 1:42PM run on the 6, but there was no R-142A there! (That is, it didn't make its run). Anyone know what happened?
Pelham Bay Dave, or any others in the know, please contact me!
Thanks!
Nick
I think they pushed it back to mid July
06/21/2000
[I think they pushed it back to mid July ]
Didn't Amtrak push back the debut of the Acela trainset to about July too? What happened in the good old days when new BMT Standards, Low-v's or MP-54's were delivered for service? Weren't they just pressed into service rather than go through a bank of heavy testing? I guess the old saying goes here......"more is less and less is more".
Bill "Newkirk"
Acela is now delayed until mid-August. Go to washingtonpost.com and search for the article. It can be read for free within the next 13 days.
"I guess the old saying goes here......'more is less and less is more.'"
Either it is forgotten or people were careless back then.
In fact, the IND ran a full schedule of trains for about a week before actually opening.
I guess that to you War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery and Ignorance is Strength.
And everybody knows the famous proverb: "If it ain't broke, allow stagnation to usurp progress."
I would call it a lesson learned from the intro of the R44/46 and Metroliner MUs.
-Hank
The R 142A will not be running intil July. By the way I am the T/o on the 1:42PM Brooklyn Bridge so you may have seen me.
What are the car numbers of the R-68A's involved in the accident?
Any bet on whether those three or four cars will be going to the scrapper?
Thanks!
Nick
Let's not jump to conclusion. Wait and see.
True. But the TA short changed the operating fleet when they linked the cars. Lose one car and you now have three spares which can no longer operate independently because components were stripped out of them. Where do you get the fourth car from to complete the set once again? Another accident perhaps?
-Stef
Shouldn't be too long, with the TA!
Either
- pull a car from the Franklin Ave shuttle fleet and join it instead
- you're looking at new candidates for the FS shuttle fleet
--Mark
>Either
>- pull a car from the Franklin Ave shuttle fleet and join it instead
>- you're looking at new candidates for the FS shuttle fleet
Oy vey! Say it ain't so. I suggested Two Car R-46s to the FS once to someone, and that idea was rejected as the cars are too vital to the Queens IND.
-Stef
Not after the G is cut back to Court 24/7! But it'd be a waste of digital signs. As it is, using R-44s on the Rockaway S seems wasteful, R68s would be better suited.
Impossible, as the Pitkin Ave. yard isn't equipped to maintain them.
The 2 remaining 3 car sets of R110B cars seem to be the logical choice to run on this shuttle.
No way. The platforms are 170' in length. A 3 Car R-110B Train is 201' long. How do you accomodate them?
-Stef
I was referring to the Rockaway Shuttle as the future home of the R110B. The dim-witted designers of the Franklin Ave. shuttle rehab have made running anything but 2 car R68's impossible.
I agree. The R-110Bs would have been perfect for the shuttle.
But nooo-ooooooo-ooo!!!!
You do lose some flexibility when cars are linked together. In the olden days, when BMT standards were coupled into B units, the couplers were still there, and if one car developed a problem, an A car could be substituted for any of the three cars and the unit returned to service. The linked R-68s no longer have this flexibility.
Yes they do. Link bars can still be replaced in the shop. I'm sure they wouldn't just have two half broken sets in the yard. Unless it's a quickly solvable problem. But couplers cause as many problems too.
You could go back to the early days of the IRT and cut out two sets of doors in the 1st and last car .....
--Mark
Or take out the middle car in each 3-car set.
Then you would be wasting what assit value they have. Leave them 3-car sets in a 6car train , or use them as a Rock pk shuttle.
For the FS take a single R/33, cannibalize the necessaries and upgrade an r/42 or even a couple of them .Now run a couplw of three car sets of r/42s on the FS, send the R/68s back to long haul service.
avid
During peak hours, are the R-44s on the shuttle coupled together to form a regular A train and run there, or are they given a break.
The Rockaway shuttle runs 24 hours a day/7 days a week. During the rush hours, some A service supplements the shuttle service, but it doesn't replace it. The last time I rode this part of the Rockaway line (1996), the rush hour A trains ran every 20 minutes, as did the shuttle.
Here is something I have thought about. Would the western Rockaways be better served if the subway service was replaced by light rail, which could descend and ride on the street and was timed to meet the A? Every 20 minutes -- even every 10 minutes -- is a long time. One is almost better off taking a bus, and beyond 116th Street you have to take a bus anyway. And now we're giving them a shuttle.
Only the Rockaway Park terminal sees any significant number of passangers getting on this train, and the majority of these are people transferring from a bus. Perhaps the TA should close (gulp) this branch of the line.
If that is the case, they could always turn it into a busway, while keeping all of the stations open.
Or an LR, they can keep the structure up, and extend to to Beach 149th Street, or even Breezy Point!
Then again, why not turn the whole thing to Light Rail? You'd lose direct service to Manhattan, but if you extend the LR up to QB you'd have a wide choice of transfers.
Believe me with those million dollar homes in this section of Rockaway, those residents will not allow any such animal.
In fact, Breezy Point doesn't allow the Green Bus Lines Q22 anywhere near there gate.
Then why not use a subway train
Because subway trains cannot run in the street.
[Only the Rockaway Park terminal sees any significant number of passangers getting on this train, and the majority of these are people transferring from a bus. Perhaps the TA should close (gulp) this
branch of the line.]
That probably would be the best idea from a strictly dollars-and-cents viewpoint. But doing so would also place New York in the dubious position of being the only U.S. city with a _shrinking_ rail transit system. I for one would not want to see that happen.
I would close it, but then there are other places that I would like to see open. I feel that if they want to close something, they better open something else more useful somewhere else.
Believe it or not, the bulk of passengers on this shuttle are from the Beach 90th Street-Holland Station. Unless it is beach season, then it is definately Rockaway Park.
It'd be a first to see 3 R68As and 1 R68 linked.
Who says they can't restore them to independant operation?
-Hank
Hmmm. The question would seem to be is it economically viable? And what if the mechanical mods can't be undone? Then what? I've never heard of any linked car being restored to independent status, but there's a first time for everything....
-Stef
Well, I can't think of anything mechanical that could be changed to the point that it couldn't be changed back. What was removed when the cars were linked? Obviously, the couplers and draft gear were changed, and that can go back. The controller handle SEEMS to still be there, but the brake handle and reverser key sockets are covered.
Wiper blades were removed, and no doubt certain cab appliances, such as wiper motors and indicator lights have been canniblized for other cars. And those can be replaced. What's left?
-Hank
These cars are NOT going to the scrapper. I saw the damage to them on the news and it was minor to the anticlimber and trucks. These can be easily repaired or replaced it shoulden't take more than 2 weeks to fix them.
-Daniel
Besides, the cars were R-68s, so no R-68As would be scrapped because of this derailment.
David
First of all, the cars involved were R-68s and not R-68A. Cars 2807 and 2805 both derailed with car #2805 suffering the worst damage. Neither car will be back in 2 weeks, nor will either be scrapped. I have not seen them yet but I'm told 6 months or so.
It was definitely a R-68. The Daily News front page shows a partial car number.. 289X.
Wayne
The entire consist from the south was:
2806-2807-2805-2804-2890-2891-2889-2888
The cars in red were the ones involved.
What Happened to the cars?
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Even though I called Central Park West the IND's crown jewel Id have to say that my favorite all around IND lines were the Queens Blvd expresses. They were a blast with the R1-9 in either direction. Jamaica bound my favorite stretch was Jackson Hts-Forest Hills. Roar into Elmhurst on the downgrade, set air for the timer and 36 MPH curve about halfway thru the station, sneak up onthe timer and kick em off, give it the juice and a nice smooth ride around the curve with motors pulling. Thunder thru Woodhaven to 63rd Dr.,then the stiff upgrade to 67 Ave... finally the grand entry into Continental, and hope you didn';t have a yellow on the way downhill. Continental is a slight upgrade that direction. Fly in, set air, more air..then a couple of graduations (release) and a perfect stop. Even more fun if you had an F express all the way thru. Clear the curve coming into Suthphin and pass Sutphin like a blur, Parsons stop much like Continental. City bound coming into Parsons was fast..too fast on the express track. It only took me having to "dump it" once to respect that station! Best stretch otherwise city bound..Jackson Heights-Queens Plaza. Highball thru 65 st, slow for the curve..good motor sounds pulling thru to 36 st..roar thru to Queens Plaza. The trip thru the tube city bound was a nice fast one. Didn't feel like much of an upgrade drag and you could hit 3rd-Lex pretty fast. The GG? a few stops on the Crosstown were fun to test R9 skills on..but for the most part the line was a humdrum. But better than the LL.
I've heard some good stories about that express run beyond Continental Ave. One train of R-6/7s got up to A above middle C in the words of one individual, while another train of R-10s probably went just as fast at Sutphin Blvd.
How would you rate the downhill run into 42nd St. southbound? I always wondered if any motorman ever overshot the station. The R-10s could make that run seem terrifying the way they would scream down that incline.
Wish I knew music like you do. I am a music lover. mostly l950's rhtyhm and blues, rock and roll.. stuff like Earth Angel. But know nothing other than to turn it on! Did you say R10's at Sutphin?. Must have been after 77 when I left. Had heard they were on the GG but not on the F. I managed to put one door past the platform at 42/ 8th once with R10's. Guess I pressed my luck too hard. Actually it wasn't that hard a station to stop at if you were "with it" coming in. Par-sons and Continental coming city-bound on an express were fast, Sheepshead Bay on Brighton was tricky in both directions, there were many others. Even though the original IND wasn't my favorite [with outdoor extensions later on I liked it better]my best memories of being a motorman were on the Queens expresses, with R1-9. The track was fast and no matter who dislikes them [and my first love was the old IRT] Queens and they were the greatest. Let me thank at this time Charlie Campbell. he was my motorman one day a week when I was a conductor in Queens. From Charlie, even without being in the cab, I could see just what a pro could do with those trains and I patterned myself after him.
I have a degree in music education and never put my drumsticks and timpani mallets away after leaving college. My first love is classical.
Anyway, the R-10s were sent to the E and F lines in 1980 when the R-46s were plagued with cracked trucks. They were reduced to rush hour-only service on the CC. I saw an E train of R-10s at WTC during my last visit to the city before heading out to Colorado, on Sept. 5, 1980. I would not be in NYC again for four years, so I missed the subway system's darkest hour.
By all accounts, the R-10s positively smoked on the Queens line. Let's face it - they were built for express runs. Whoever made the decision to assign them to the A initially should get a medal of honor, IMHO.
I actually had a dream about the R-10s last night. I was in the sixth car of a train, and got to watch the conductor assume the position, even catching a glimpse of the trigger box on the adjacent car. I was saying to myself, rear section first, then front section, as the conductor closed the doors. There were a couple of guys standing by the storm door, propping it open, and the conductor had to excuse himself in order to get by.
It was in 1981 when I got a rocket ride on an "F" of R10's, lead motor was #3080. We had to be at or over 55MPH going through Suthphin Bvld and at least 50MPH in the curve prior to it. Talk about balls! This train had LOADS of 'em
wayne
Sounds a lot like my Rockaway rocket ride in July of 1969. Those R-10s must have been trying to do their best impression of a Saturn V rocket; in fact, the Apollo 11 astronauts were on their way to the moon that very day.
Or maybe trying to outrun the horses at Aqueduct....
NY Times Article w/photo
NY Daily News Article W/photos
I just grabbed a copy of the Daily News. The train involved in the derailment was indeed an R68. Two of the cars were 2807 and 2805. There is a picture on page 3 of this morning's Daily News.
I'm sure Sub Dude will let us know a good deal of info about it, since he's got some 'responsibility' for the hippos.
-Hank
This is just a theory based on NO evidence that would explain the derailment of the B train last night at DeKalb. I think the third car (which derailed) might have hit the flange lubricator and jumped the rail. I think this because it was just when the third was preparing to enter the tunnel and there is a curve after the platform ends.
Does anyone else see this or support this?
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
I'll put $10 on a split switch.
-Hank
Nope. Not even close.
Who, me, or DaWheelFlange?
-Hank
3rd car passenger panics upon having missed
his/her stop.. pulls Emergency Brake cord
JUST AS the car passes over the switch..
appears to reader as if first two cars crossed
switch.. third car (brake on) wheels lock
and careen off-switch.. towards dividing wall.
NOT. My theory is the switch, which has caused one previous derailment with a D train using similar equipment has a problem for which the TA might be negligent.
My theory is that there was a foreign enemy spy on the train and the CIA caused the derailment to capture him/her.
Remember the Amtrak derailment? Someone removed the fish plates and misalign the tracks then rewire the signal system so that the engineer will not receive a stop signal.
would it be that the track is out of shape that caused the derailment? but they say that that switch bed is inspected weekly. maybe there was a snafu in the truck because it was said that the train jerked pulling into the station. so it could be the truck was bad. i bet u it is. after the investigation.
although i was questioned about the derailment by the police after a post of mine yesterday about derailments, i have a theory that robert johnson aka subway_crash_means_rising elevator ( or something like that ) might have been behind it... where has he been lately?
I thought that it was a wish of Sea Beach Fred, so the B would be a local and the N would be a 24/7 Express again
heypaul, when I heard of the derailment your name immediately came to mind. I'm glad our boyz in blue got hold of you. Did they use their nightsticks on you? Or was pepper-spray used?
Incidentally, do you know if anybody can account for Mark W.'s whereabouts for Tuesday evening during the hour in question? Just a thought...
...however, in lieu of human error, a bad (cracked) truck could have been the culprit.
Doug aka BMTman
Wise guy. I'll pretend I didn't see that post.
In reviewing some of the derailments of the past, it seems that a faulty switch is usually the culprit. Apparently, a switch set for a track deviation straightened out as a car passed over it, thus derailing the car. My hunch is that this what happened to the B train.
Sorry--- the last sentence in my post should have read:
My hunch is that this is what happened to the B Train.
This particular switch isn't normally used that much, as it's usually set to allow D/Q trains to switch to the Brighton tracks.
And also, the NY times claimed it was inspected twice in the last 4 months, so it seems unlikely that it could have been worn down or just plain bad. Maybe we have a reprise of the 1928 TSQ crash, but instead this time the towerman pulled the switch back to straight while the 3rd car was beginning to go over.
Hi all! In any transit operating environment, the track block is monitored for occupancy; if indeed the block is occupied (in this case the switch) then a series of relay logic circuits prevent any commands from actuating the switch which - would derail the rail. A "split switch" could do this, but it would signify a problem existed in the maintenance of the switch itself - switches do not move out of position of their own volition. If the switch is misadjusted - to allow too much distance between the point and the rail, or has a bent throw rod which will allow too much "play" in the movement (which falling debris could get into and prevent a good "throw") - then the switch is subject to movement when traffic is passing over it. Another possible cause or a contributing cause is the width of the wheel flange of the rail vehicle itself, if it its allowed to get too thin and an opportunity arises from the switch point being misadjusted it then attempt to pass BETWEEN the switch point and the regular rail itself. When this happens generally the weight and force of the vehicle will force the switch point over more (splitting) and if you are lucky, the vehicle "jumps" and lands on the rail, but most times it jumps onto the ground and derails.
Just a thought on a possibility - due to Operator error in the yards, I have seen them take 5 empty cars through 2 switches the wrong way and NOT derail; and also take one truck of a vehicle through and drop it, so you never know!
Since the investigation into the cause has not been made official as yet, I cannot comment but your assessment makes much sense.
Ironic that earlier in the day Tuesday I saw waiting for a southbound 3 train at 42nd street and saw a "track inspection" train move through the station on the local, it made alot of noise and I think it was diesel.
I saw it around 10:20am.
Hence the installation of Grade Timers at that location.
Guess what, GT gonna be put here too??
Why don't we just wait for the official word? Speculation is useless.
David
Speculation is fun, especially if you guess right. I'll bet the MTA officials are watching this board, and actually investigate the most plausible ones we come up with.
I'm not a betting man, but I seriously doubt that any MTA officials are paying the slightest bit of attention to what we amateurs are saying. The only posters that they would pay attention to are the professionals in their employ, and it wouldn't be to their posts on this board, it would be to their professional opinion if it were asked for in the course of business. I'm sure that we will be informed by those professionals at such time as they are able to inform us (as in, once the cause is known and the MTA's lawyers permit discussion of it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, we're not ALL amateurs - we have quite a few qualified professionals in our midst - Train Dude, Engine Brake, Mark W., Anthony Pardi Jr., Pelham Bay Dave, AND OTHERS (sorry if I missed your name) come to mind.
AND let's not forget subway-buff, even though "hardware" isn't their forte, "software" is.
wayne
No, we're not - that's why I mentioned the professionals in my next sentence. My point was that those who are professionals on this board will have their opinions soliticited, if appropriate, in the course of normal business, but that this board per se will not have any bearing on the course of the investigation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know very little abut the mechanical aspects of the system. Probably more than the average straphanger, but not enough to entertain my own theories about what caused the derailment. About the only thing I can conclude on my own without the mechanical expertise a transit worker would have is that the R68's are slower than a tortise with a limp ...
That slowness probably saved #2805's life; if it had been going any faster, you might have had another #6304 or #3333 on your hands. And that could have spelled doom for some of those passengers. The R68s must have some crushproofing at their ends. All she lost was her bonnet and anticlimber.
wayne
I believe a wheel detctor has been put in this area, so any car, even the speedy R40's would have been traveling slowly.
BTW, aren't wheel detectors on any line with R68's assigned to them a tad redundant?
(Speculation is fun, especially if you guess right. I'll bet the MTA officials are watching this board, and actually investigate the most plausible ones we come up with.)
Yes, but to attract the press, we need something more interesting. When taking a cab home from the airport the other day, my wife heard an intersting theory about why the police have not solved the car service killings. The speculator was an immigrant made good, living in the suburbs on his and his wife's earnings, with two kids in college (and good ones I might add). He said the police are actually the ones killing the Black and Latino cabbies, because they have invested in side businesses marketing the partitions they are trying to sell.
I'm not kidding. Someone actually said this and was serious. And it wasn't Mr. L.A.
I wonder if the police caused the de-railment by setting off a bomb?
[I wonder if the police caused the de-railment by setting off a bomb?]
I bet that's it. They were killing a witness on the third car--you know, the one who could prove that they were behind the woman chasing at the PR Day Parade . . .
[Yes, but to attract the press, we need something more interesting. When taking a cab home from the airport the other day, my wife heard an intersting theory about why the police have not solved the car service killings. The speculator was an immigrant made good, living in the suburbs on his and his wife's earnings, with two kids in college (and good ones I might add). He said the police are actually the ones killing the Black and Latino cabbies, because they have invested in side businesses marketing the partitions they are trying to sell.
I'm not kidding. Someone actually said this and was serious. And it wasn't Mr. L.A.]
Doesn't surprise me. Opinion polls have shown that a small but not insignificant percentage of blacks believe that white scientists deliberately created AIDS as a means of holding down the black population. Needless to say, there probably are some equally absurd beliefs among whites and other races too. Just look at some of the alt.conspiracy USENET groups and you'll see what I mean. My theory is that a certain segment of the population enjoys wild conspiracies and rumors, and will create new ones just to keep things interesting.
[Doesn't surprise me. Opinion polls have shown that a small but not insignificant percentage of blacks believe that white scientists deliberately created AIDS as a means of holding down the black population. Needless to say, there probably are some equally absurd beliefs among whites and other races too. Just look at some of the alt.conspiracy USENET groups and you'll see what I mean. My theory is that a certain segment of the population enjoys wild conspiracies and rumors, and will create new ones just to keep things interesting.]
These things tend to flourish when actual abuses are revealed. People can't seem to understand that isolated incidences of malfeasance don't justify paranoid generalizations.
In the case of the black community, some of the paranoia is due to the infamous Tuskeegee experiments.
I saw 6301-6305 yesterday on the Dyre Test Track. It was doing triping tests. They were measuring the stopping distance of the train after passing a raised trip arm. It looks like the cars have trip cocks on both sides. I also noticed evidence of graffiti on #6304. It was faded, but you could tell it was there.
I also saw it pass though Pelham Parkway on its way to Gun Hill Road. I heard its horn as it passed through.
There was already grafitti on it - and it hasn't entered revenue service yet.
That is really interesting. Considering that the train is usually stored inside when it's not being tested and it is always seems to be moving around. Also, when it is in testing service, there is usually a crew inside the cars at one point or another. Whoever did the grafitti must have been really quick to avoid being noticed.
I think the TA should seriously consider using closed circuit tv's in and around the trains - including the yards. The trains cost too much for some bunch of good-for-nothing punks to be messing them up already.
By the way, does the horn on the new trains sound the same as those on older trains?
[By the way, does the horn on the new trains sound the same as those on older trains?]
Yes.
>>I also noticed evidence of graffiti on #6304.
7-0
What the hell does that mean?
If you're still keeping score like some mental patient, then I find this highly ironic, especially since the Repulsive Rustbirds were around in the 70s.
2-5
That's more like it.
But back in the 70s, they weren't Redbirds . . . they were Graffitti Birds! They were definitely repulsive to look at back then. They look bad now with all that rust on them.
That's the whole point. In the world of staying graffiti free, the Repulsive Rustbirds have an edge over NOTHING.
I just read the stories on 1010wins.com and ny1.com. WINS says 87 injured while Channel 1 says 84. Also, NY1 reports the train was 10 cars and WINS says the counductor made an announcement saying how he was injured. What happened, so that he couldn't help his passengers but was able to make an announcement?
I rather wait for the news to come out in print. The broadcast media are trying to top each other for the fastest news (You hear it here first!) without checking the facts. It's called the ratings.
I just read the stories on 1010wins.com and ny1.com. WINS says 87 injured while Channel 1 says 84.
And NewsRadio 88 said 89 injured this morning.
--Mark
Are single unit subway cars and trains with an odd number of cars dead. In the era of hi labour costs it seems that the money does not exits to taylor train size to demand. All subway cars come in married pairs and those are usually chained into 6 car trains thatrun regardless of how many cars are needed. PATCo is an exception because they run 2 car trains (and sometimes even a 1 car train late at night) at all times except rush hour when they run 6 car trains. Besides the 25 PATCO single units and the R33's are there any other single units runnint about? Do you think any transit system will ever buy new single unit trains? Have anyone seen a subway train with 3,5 or 7 cars?
The R-62As on the 3 and the R-68s on the FRANKLIN Shuttle are singles.
Since the R-62s and most R-62As are 5 car sets, if it had an off hour halving, it would be a 5 car train. These are required on the #5 OPTO.
Before a 3 car set was cannibalized for parts, the R-110B ran in a 9 car set on the A. It now runs 6 cars on the C.
Because the SIR cars have couplers as opposed to link bars, it is possible to run the train with 0, 1 or 2 trailers in the middle. If one is run (which I believe is rare). One gets a three car train.
The 3 runs 9 cars
The 7 runs 11 cars (makes you want a Slurpee)
Tracks 1 and 3 of the 42ND Street shuttle use 3 car trains.
CORRECTIONS AND ADDENDA:
Only the R-33 singles, as their name implies, are singles. The mainline R-33s are doubles and therefore are not damned to hell.
The middle cars in a multiple set are not usually trailers, they are blind motors.
SIR uses 2, 4, or 5-car trains. Weekends and late nights, they run 2, and some rush-hour trains are 5. I've seen all possible combinations, but NEVER a single car, or a train with a B-car on the end (in passenger service). This is impossible, because there's no cab on the B-cars, and SIR is a point-to-point line.
-Hank
I believe that every single numbered Borad Street Line B-IV (except for #666, which is a work car that looks like a regular car) that is in regular operation is a single, but only some have cabs on both ends.
Do you think any transit system will ever buy new single unit trains?
Well, techniclly speaking, the R-62s and R-68s are single unit cars that were only recently linked up a 5 or 4 car units ....
--Mark
As I am now a regualr PATCO rider I have begun to pick up and read the weekly PATCO publication "SPEEDLINER" available for free inside the fare control area. Speedliner contains various aticles relating to PATCO or regional events that can be reached by using PATCO. All in all it can provide bout 5 minutes worth of reading enjoyment or just enough time to wait for the next train. I was wondering if any other transit systems have been nice enough to provide their loyal riders with a newspaper and if so what is the quality and do you read it?
PS: Please do not mention that cable TV show that the MTA puts on.
PATH publishes a newsletters every other month or so, called "Pathways". It's hit or miss whether you actually come across a copy except at WTC, it seems like...
SEPTA publishes a paper which has been very controversial because the Inquirer/Daily News fought it because SEPTA makes it available where Inkie/DN aren't allowed (on SEPTA property) and the SEPTA paper actually has general news as well as SEPTA promo stuff.
Bob
Baltimore (actually the state-run MTA) has a publication, as does the Washington Metro System.
In Frankfurt, Germany, the FFV (now RMV for Rhein-Main Verkehrsbetrieb) used to publish (and probably still does) a great bimonthly free 8-page (or was it 12-page?) 5x7 booklet with color pictures, diagrams of planned new service, etc. I used to travel there and there was a new one every time I visited.
Many European metropolitan areas also publish timetable books listing every subway train, commuter train, streetcar, bus, and ferry boat in the area, and none of that "Frequent service" or "Less than 10 minutes" stuff; they've got every movement on every line. In most cities they are the size of a medium to thick paperback book. In Munich it's the size of a small-town telephone book. And there is always a free large map inside with it. My wife could never figure out what I found so interesting about them... But we all know...
My friend gave me a Scotrail working time table ewhich is about 100 pages long and lists every Sctorail train, Ar Dp times, "at location" times and places where time can be made up. Its really neat and not meant to be seen out side the Scotrail community so mums the word.
The Department of Busses has their little BusTalk brochure every so often.
And that TV show is also broadcast on UHF. Good thing, since those local stations are only available by way of the evil cable monopoly (the government wastes their time with Microsoft and lets those horrible bastards live) and not via affordable premium television (digital satellite).
I could swear that I get those local UHF stations using an antenna, so I am not sure what you mean. But then again I live only 15 miles from some of them and 30 miles from the others.
The point is that one can use a sattelite and still watch the program, because the dishes only carry national channels.
As part 4 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions About the Subway todays question regards the best entrances for underground subway stations. In Philly we use cast Iron poles (3 feet high 4 in dia.) with cast iron plates (4x~3x1in) suspended b/t them. They are painted in the colour of the line they provide access to and there is a rectangular lamp post with a rectangular lamp on the top with an illuminated line name. I think in NYC they have green things with grille work, a lamp post with sepherical lamp and a sign with the subway lines served. What are all of your favourites
Montreal's are the worst, at least along Blvd. Maissoneuve. They are little silver colored buildings usually just off the main corner, sometimes in a parking lot that used to be a nice building. You'd think they were little warehouses. And worst the main street with anything on it is one medium-length block south on Rue Ste. Catherine.
I'm not going to start defending the subject because as Pigs previously mentioned, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" but Montreal has one of the nicest subway system in the world.
Metro montreal's population is just over 3 million people. Our transit system is only a little over 30 years old built for Expo 67 and is presently inadequate for the size of the city.
The station's individual architecture is actually very impressive, A must see for subway fans.As for Ste-Catherine street, it goes for a couple of miles west to east with the now infamous Mtl Forum shut down.
I've seen the Chamber street subway entrance and station or Coney Island for that matter, Wow!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Chambers Street! UGH!!!!
Anyway, best in NYC at least are those funny-looking kiosks that sit in Union Square park.
The Reproduction IRT Kiosk at Astor Place is also quite a sight.
wayne
The entrance to Chambers Street, underneath the Municipal Building, is reminiscent of the station itself: vast, underused, and somewhat spooky.
The fact that there are permanent gates in front of a couple of sections of the main stairway (which has to be the widest single entrance this side of Stilwell Ave.) doesn't help matters any.
I say Bowling Green, the original entrance.
Fifth Avenue/CPS is interesting in that some of it's entrances are built into the Park walls. The station itself is pretty good too.
72nd is good, but not as good as Bowling Green.
If we consider Grand Central Terminal to be a giant entry for the subway there, then that should count! But that's cheating. Rockefeller Center and the Chrysler Building would then count.
It shouldn't count just as above, but the entrance to the Orange and Blue lines at State/Citizens Bank in Boston is built into the Old State House, 300 years older than the subway there!
Please, please don't call it "State/Citizens Bank".
Why? Should I call it Washington/State?
Shouldn't it be called Commonwealth Street? Since it is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Hey Marty----In La Vegas, they have a hotel and amusement area called New York, New York. They have a replica of a subway station that has to be Stillwell Avenue. Only this was looks sharp and clean, the way Stillwell should be and was decades ago. If there was one station I would make into a scenic display it would be the Coney Island station. But that seems to be a pipedream.
Please note: I only mentioned the station entrances, as in the place where you walk in off the street. The whole rest of the Montreal system is great, just not those silver little buildings.
I vote "worst" for the Phila. Market-Frankford line. Mainly, the entry towers on most of the elevated on the northeast end. Dirty, forbidding brick buildings in neighborhoods that are going from bad to worse. I wouldn't use one of those stations at night.
Fortunately, some of the stations, such as Margaret-Orthodox, have been renovated with new entrances.
One of my favorite stations is Owings Mills here on Baltimore's Metro Subway. The station is in the median of Interstate 795, and to get to the fare control you have to walk under the highway lanes. It's NOT like Spring Garden on the Philly MFL...the passages under the highway are indoors. I'd say that stations on the outer Orange WMATA Line in Virginia (along I-66) are similar.
I think just about any I've seen in Paris top anything in the US:
http://www.nycsubway.org/europe/paris/line2/p02dauphine05.jpg
...although London is giving Paris a run for the money recently:
http://www.nycsubway.org/europe/london/jubilee/jub-canary01.jpg
It's hard to compare either of these with anything in the US, although I understand LA went all-out for a few of their new subway station entrances.
No offense, but that Paris one is quite ugly.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
I rode the Los Angeles Red Line today. The entrance at Hollywood and Vine is a sight to behold. Inside the station has a movie-like motif and above ground the plaza is warm and picturesque. Of course, we've had eons to get it right since we've been bringing up the rear in this area. That last statement should make some of my antagonists on this site a mite pleased.
Fred I thought the Red Line went out to Universal Studios. Did they sell T Shirts like they did in 92 when it first opened???
The extension to Universal City and North Hollywood opens June 24th with free rides. I guess Fred and I will be looking out the railfan window on Saturday until someone with a camcorder on a tripod pushes us out of the way. :-)
Tom, I can tell you I'll be on the alert. However, I will have my daughter, her best friend, and both boyfriends with me for reinforcements in case I get the bum's rush from my friends with the camcorder.
That stop and two others open up on Saturday with free rides for the public. I hope to take my daughter and her boyfriend to ride that train.
Hard to beat Paris. But the original IRT kiosks were pretty funky.
Naturally, they removed them all and replaced them with concrete steps. There's a rebuilt one at Astor Place, though, and the Christopher St. Path entrance is surprisingly grand. And some of the original IRT el stations are pretty cool too--in spite of the ongoing program to uglify I mean modernize them, they still have woodwork and fireplaces.
06/21/2000
Two of my favorites are the Cortelyou and Beverley Rd entrance buildings on the Brighton Line. Their recent rehab makes them even more appealing.
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey Bill, do they bear any resemblance to the Prospect Park Station? I was impressed with the improvement I saw last summer over the last time I had seen it in 1991. Then it was a small vacant lot and what appeared to be a subway entrance. There was another near by that didn't look much better. Last summer was sort of an epiphony for me. I was impressed.
06/23/2000
[Hey Bill, do they bear any resemblance to the Prospect Park Station]
Hi Fred!
Not really since Beverley and Cortelyou are suspended above the tracks and Prospect is on the ground. But they blend the old with the new in rehabbing the buildings so as not to give it that sterile look.
Bill "Newkirk"
I completely forgot those when I chose Bowling Green.
I change my vote!
I heard that Stillwell Avenue will be rebuilt to look like a European train station (glass/steel arch). Is this true?
06/22/2000
[I heard that Stillwell Avenue will be rebuilt to look like a European train station (glass/steel arch). Is this true? ]
Yes Pigs, that's what the plans call for. I even heard of saving the facade with the [BMT LINES] wedgewood signs too.Yes a new Stillwell Terminal is in the future. Let's hope a new Coney Island like the Phoenix rising from the ashes is in the future too.
Bill "Newkirk"
Yesterday on the MFL the driver left the window shade up and I could see into the cab. On the long run from 30th St. to 15th St. the train reached a maximum speed of 52 mph. That's pretty fast. Of course its a 1.5 mile run.
Second does anyone know why the BSL is so FREAKING LOUD. I mean I can be shouting and the person next to me can't hear with all the noise those things make. How built them anyway, they look like a St. Louis Car creation. Also is that round metal loop attached to the front of each car a radio arial? Finally can someone please tell me if the BSl has some sort of cab signals. At all the block junctions they have one of those things in the middle of the track. It looks like a box connected to another box by a long tube. From each box wires go out at the rails. They use the same ones on PATCO.
Good ol' Kawasaki built the current BSS cars.
The metal loop is an antenna, and is part of a system called "Ident-A-Tag" or something like that. It allows the train to broadcast routing information to trackside equipment. (local, express, spur, special, etc.) I don't know if it actually controls interlockings - I'm not sure.
The BSS does not use cab signals. The boxes my be for traction return power or the signal system - I'm not sure. (The BSS is tentatively slated for CBTC in 12 years or so when it's time for new rolling stock.)
On a related note, the MFL is about to be upgraded to cab signals as well as full-circle regenerative-braking power systems. (The later is mostly done, I believe.)
The boxes allow for traction current to go between blocks but not signal current. The same sort of thing can be seen on practically any electric railroad, especially PATH and LIRR.
What's actually inside the box that prevents the signal current from being passed on?
Speaking of signals, why are some signals on the BSS spaced closer together than a full block. I think on 3 track south of Race-
Vine there are 2 signals spaced 1 car legnth apart.
I don't see them on the NEC although the same wireing is there. I guess that all the equipment (cab signals etc) is trakside. Why can't they just use the ground for the return current?
During the summer, the M-3s on the MFL (in the tunnel) made more noise than the BSS, or any car type currently on the NY subway. Then again, with the storm doors propped open in every car they would be very loud.
06/21/2000
If you think the current rolling stock on the BSS is loud, do you remember the old North and South Broad cars? They were very noisy.
Although they were 67' long like out BMT Standards, they were much noiser. The BMT Standards had the "pony" wheel on the truck to help lead the car into a turn. Instead of having two wheels on a truck of the same diameter, the "pony" wheel would be smaller than the other wheel. The Broad St and Bridge cars didn't have the "pony" wheel hence a very noisy ride. The BMT Standards were much quieter.
Bill "Newkirk"
The noise is just general Shake Ratle and Rumble noise. Its pretty quite inside the cars, but on the platform as a train pulls away and reaches full speed it is just deafening. Its like every bolt on the train/track is loose.
Some cars are pretty noisy on the inside. Even with the doors closed, but with the heat/ac on it can get noisy. When I was at NY 2 weeks ago and rode the R-62s on the 1 I was amazed by how quiet they were compared to Broad Street. Even the M-4s can get loud at some parts of the tunnel.
While some B-IVs are excrutiatingly loud, I once rode B-IV #509 at the front of a Ridge Spur consist. Not only was it softer than usual, but it made the same noises while accelerating and decelerating that the M-4s make, you know, the smooth sound. I complimented SEPTA on the lack of loud noise on the car, they said they appreciated my compliment, but I never found out what they did.
P.S. On the grounds of subway noise on the platform, a student named Jamal Kelly conducted a science project on noise in subway stations which was at the G.W. Carver Science Fair, then moved onto the Delaware Valley Science Fair, where he got some media coverage, but I don't know what his award was. Basically, he took a sound measuring device to some BSS stations and measured noise level there. It was interesting seeing a transit project there. Now it would have been really great if he could have gone to various NYC stations such as E. 28th on the 7th Avenue and found out that a passing redbird makes less than half the noise of a passing 2 car train of B-IVs.
I was originally planning to catch the R110B this morning at 34 Streeet at 10:20. Unfortunately, I missed it. So I went down to Battery Park, and hung out there for an hour. After lunch at McDonalds, I returned to Chambers Street at 11:50, and the R110B came at 11:58. Nice train. Many people inside thought it was an old train, but when they saw the nice features in it, they changed their minds. There were, though, a couple of flaws, the destination sign didn't work, it just said C Listen for announcements, the station marker on the side of the train wasn't working correctly, and the thing inside wasn't working (that yellow LCD). In all it was a very smooth ride. It sort of felt like I was in the Concourse shuttle train in Atlanta's The Hartsfield Airport, because you could see from car to car.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
I only rode the 110b once in 95 while it was running on the A line. I was impressed to say the least.new cars are hard to come by it seems in the subway
Wait a year, and you won't be able to ride an IRT line without seeing shiny new cars.
BTW, the R110B has it's good and bad points. It's quiet, smooth and the offset lighting gives the interior a less antiseptic feeling. However, it's lack of seats negates any good point it might have. Look for it to spend the rest of it's days on the Rockaway Shuttle after the R143's start arriving.
The C was never programmed into the R-110B, so the Automated Stop Announcement, the digital signs, and the strip maps don't work. Did cars 3001-3003 have working outside signs? They weren't on when I rode.
BTW, you could have superceded it with the A when you missed it.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/index.html
VCR ALERT!
Extreme Machines episode "Super Trains" will be on TLC Tonight (Wed.) and Sunday afternoon.
From the trains of China and India to the latest high speed engines in Europe and America, trains travel some of the most dangerous and inaccessible terrains in the world. Today railroads are making a comeback, but the danger involved is underestimated.
TLC Jun 21 2000 8:00 PM - ET
TLC Jun 21 2000 11:00 PM - ET
TLC Jun 24 2000 2:00 AM - ET
TLC Jun 25 2000 3:00 PM - ET
-------------------
But wait, there's more . . .
The Travel Channel will have the "Top 10 Coasters", including Coney Island's own "Cyclone" on Sunday, June 25.
TRV Jun 25 2000 8:00 PM - ET
TRV Jun 25 2000 11:00 PM - ET
Ride America's top 10 roller coasters, as chosen by die-hard coaster enthusiasts and historians. The list includes wooden relics like *Coney Island's Cyclone*, as well as state-of-the-art steel contraptions.
thanks dude.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The movie Stigmata, now out on video, has a relatively lenghty scene that's set on a subway. Which wouldn't be so bad, except that the movie takes place in Pittsburgh - unless it's a deep dark secret, there isn't any subway in the Iron City :-) I couldn't identify the cars themselves, although I have heard that the filmakers recycled the old NYC cars used in Money Train. Yet at one very brief scene, showing the train at the station platform, we can see what looks an awful lot like a Redbird!
[there isn't any subway in the Iron City]
The light rail line runs in the subway in the triangle part of the city. (At least it did 5 years ago when I rode it from near the former P&LE station across the river).
[The light rail line runs in the subway in the triangle part of the city. (At least it did 5 years ago when I rode it from near the former P&LE station across the river).]
True, but what was shown in the movie was definitely heavy rail, and it ran at high speed for something like five minutes before arriving at the next station.
There's also scenes of the Chicago els in "A Stir of Echoes".
.....Finally the pico blue line metro los angeles station was used for the ""LAKERS VICTORY PARADE"" .....etc........
when the huge swarms of crowds were leaving "LAKERS STADIUM" ( the stapels taxpayer built dome ) the crowds
finally realized that there was ""a quick escape from downtown"". THE BLUE LINE PICO STATION...!!!!!!! ( yes)
rail transit was finally a reality however most of the crowds were leaving downtown rather then when they first
came to the downtown to the all day celebration areas. So finally the pico station got SOME use .....whoopee!!!!!
I am glad to hear that the public is finally discovering that Staples Center is convenient to the Blue Line Pico station.
In the interest of accuracy, though, it should be stated that the center was privately financed. The Community Redevelopment Authority (CRA) did contribute a tiny portion. We can thank City Council member Joel Wachs for his leadership in that area, as the interests that built Staples Center initially assumed that Los Angeles taxpayers should be stuck paying for a substantial portion of the bill.
I just noticed that one cannot change their registered e-mail address.
Somebody else controls the e-mail address. Not only can I not retrieve a forgotten password, somebody else gets it if I try to!
..talking to oneself again, Pigs?
Well, at least I can.
You see, you aren't.
Remember Descartes's Proverb I think therefore I am?
Well, if you can't think, you are not.
I see said the blind man.
As he picked up his hammer and saw.
Have you decided to join (1) South Ferry (9) in the league of anencephalics? Or are you just playing around?
Can't top the original (Pigs).
End of discussion
(Mr. Pirmann is watching..)
In such a case you could write me from your new email address and explain the situation.
Today I finally rode the Red Line Los Angeles Subway. I caught it at Pershing Square and rode it to Hollywood and Vine, then returned to its eastern terminal at Union Station where my car was parked. The stations were spotless, and so were the trains. The cars purred and there was a raifan window and a railfan seat. Actually, there were two windows to look out of because the motorman had a small car all for himself. So to see in the tunnel you had to look out of two windows, but having a railfan seat was great. They're opening the last part of that subway Saturday free of charge. I might take my daughter and her boyfriend to ride the rails. BTW, I met my teaching buddy on the way to the Laker Parade where he was waiting outside because of a bomb scare in the Criminal Courts Building. We went to the parade, and he rode a subway for the first time in his life. I couldn't get him away from the window. The parade will be discussed in a later message. But we have a new railfan and he didn't have to do jury duty. Quite a day.
......just to throw a monkey wrench in your wheel of progress......a small riot broke out.....again......
This time general vandalism & many food truck vendors were looted..... Some of those suspects were
"" rounded up by police""............... not a great day at all.....!!!!!!
Word on the street is that the Festival for 2000 has been cancelled.
The reason I heard was that the rates for tables was jacked up so high that only a few vendors expressed any interest.
Anyone hear anything more definitive?
06/21/2000
This really stinks! Why is NJT so gung ho in killing this advent. Remember when it was orignally Hoboken Festival, with vendors galore and wall to wall people? Then they renamed it Try Transit Festival, and shifting it from the early fall to spring. And finally the hope of returning the name of Hoboken Festival and to the early fall date. What do they do?, they jack up the table rates and scare away the vendors. Besides the train displays, it's also the vendors that draw the people to the festival.......HELLO!!!
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>This really stinks! Why is NJT so gung ho in killing this advent. <<<<
Perhaps they thought it attracts too much riffraff ....!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Seriously though, it's a shame. I enjoyed the one in May '98...
1456-1460 have new floors. Cars have the same 'New Floor Smell' that 3494-5 have. I have seen many mushy floors on those types, it's good they're being replaced.
i think the city emergency services and the ta workers deserve a lot of our praise for a quick response and treatment of the injured, and a fast job in removing the damaged cars and in repairing the track... we are often quick here to criticize the city's response to problems, and i feel we should give praise quickly when it is deserved..
i would be curious if any of the workers involved in the rescue and treatment of the passengers and in the repair of the car and track could describe what it was like down there...
Agreed. Many times when there are outages such as this one, they're always cleared before the estimated time. Kudos to all who were involved.
--Mark
Can anyone please direct me to where I can find out any information about the Lost Astor Tunnel(s)? Please e-mail directly. Thank you!
Did you by chance read a book called "Reliquary"? The "Astor Tunnels" play a role in that book.
Complete and total fiction. There were so many factual errors in that book it is completely laughable.
[Did you by chance read a book called "Reliquary"? The "Astor Tunnels" play a role in that book.
Complete and total fiction. There were so many factual errors in that book it is completely laughable.]
Sounds like the "Mole People"!
There are mole people at 116th in the Amtrak tunnel.
The 10:35 Bergen County line departure for Suffern was a Comet IV today! Now, I know the cars are all pooled together, but in reality NJT does regulate where their cars go. MN cars stay on the Main, Bergen, Pascack lines, Comet IIs and Ibs mostly stay on the Newark Division lines, though a few cars migrate over to the Hoboken Division lines. Comet III and IV cars stay on the electrified routes, and also the Boonton line. Before today, I have never seen a Comet IV on the Bergen line, it probably returned to Hoboken in service along the Main line too, since the consist that does that trip usually becomes the 12:02 out of Suffern. The digital signs (internal and external) were off, not even saying 'NJ TRANSIT'. They probably never use them there because there is no reason whatsoever to run cars with center doors on that line. I believe that the train becomes the 1:55 Boonton line later on, since I see that train arrive and discharge around the same time the 12:02 from Suffern is scheduled to arrive, and its usually a Comet I. Does anyone have the equipment schedule?
Last summer I saw Comet IV's on the Main Line at Suffern. I was too far away to tell if the signs were working, but they might have been. The signs use Global Positioning Satellite technology so they could work on the Main and Bergen County Lines. But I was surprised to see a Comet IV consist as a diesel-hauled train; I thought they were only powered by ALP44 electrics.
Don't be surprised if you find an MN coach or cab car on a NE Corridor or NJ Coast Line train because they do show up on those lines too.
And I've seen MN cars in Penn Station, which is not only worth it for giggle value, but must cause peroidic railfans to do a double take!
I know one Comet IV and Comet III was transferred from Metro North to NJ Transit (& were repainted), and were traded for NJT Comet IIs 5135 and 5136. Those were the only MN cars I ever saw in Penn, or on the NEC/NJC/RVL/M&E for that matter. I think the Comet II MN cars sometimes went there, one lone car in a train of regular Comet IIs, but not the Ia or Shoreliner.
I live in bergen county and take the Main/Bergen County Lines just about every weekend along with the Long Branch Line. On the Long Branch Line, the norm is a set of Arrow III Cars or ALP44 Engines with Comet Cars (Either IIs, IIIs, or IVs).
But on several occassions, I've ridden sets of Comet IV Cars coupled to GP40PH-2B Engines. The Comet IVs are just like any other commuter rail car and can be coupled to any engine that has the same coupler hook up. Though the normal NJT setup is a ALP44 with some Comet IV cars but on occassions, usually a daily basis, Comet IVs are being mixed in with other cars.
Last weekend I rode a Long Branch train with this set up:
ALP44-Comet III-Comet III-Comet IV-Comet III-Comet III-Comet III Cab.
So don't be as shocked as you were if you see these babies all over the place.
Be on the look out, Comet Vs coming next year!
Have a Safe and Blessed Day
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
Today, the 4 car consist was attached to one of the MN engines transferred from AMTRAK. After it came off the Main Line, they uncoupled the engine at Hoboken. People were already on the train for the 1:47 trip to Hackettstown. The digital signs were completely off. They weren't even lit.
Well because the engine is the power source, no engine, no power to the signs, lights were probably running off of backup power. The GPS satellite system is programmed for all line. When I rode my Comet IV set on the Main line, all stops were announced by the computer system and all signs worked!
Flxible Metro B #3511
I mean, the signs were off even while running. Mayhaps the computer is malfunctioning in 5016, but why didn't the signs say 'NJ TRANSIT'. I have seen trains w/non Comet 4 cabs with the signs saying that as a default, and the external signs on displaying the destination. BTW, I have been on one powered by an ALP-44 on the M&E, and during those 10 second periods of no power the signs still worked. Odd, the brightest light is the yellow sign, not the emergency lights.
Wow, That's a Shock!
Flxible Metro B #3511
I've seen and ridden Comet IV's on the Boonton Line and the signs and automated announcements were working. Metro-North equipment is also the norm on Boonton Line trains. I don't know if Comet III's have been used on that line or the Main/Bergen, although I think I did see a train of Comet III's on the Pascack Valley Line, with the first car a Comet II (no center door).
Speaking of NJT cars, when the Arrow I's were overhauled, why weren't the center doors kept?
48 hours ago I saw an episode of Law & Order featuring a subway scene at the begining. I don'tknow what line it was but some of the footage
featured whole car graffiti murals.This caught my eye because this was a first season episode meaning 89-90. I thought the Mta had gotten rid of the Graf. probleme by then?
Any ideas?
Yes, they probably used a footage that was several years old.
NYPD Blue has a few subway shots in its intro - at the end is Utica Avenue IND station, it has since been a total rehabilitation.
wayne
The MTA had gotten rid of the problem by then. Hollywood still presists in portraying NYC subways as covered by graffiti to this day.
Hardly a month goes by at the Transit Museum that they don't get some tourist, usually foreign, that wants to see a train covered with graffiti.
Peace,
ANDEE
Are there any of those left?
You haven't been paying attention. The graffiti problem was eliminated by NYCT a dozen years ago. Some vandalism (Scratchiti) still exists, but entire trains maked up ala the late 1970's and early 80's does not happen. Razor wire and other security measures in the yards have made wholesale graffittied trains an unhappy memory nobody wants back.
Praise the force that';s over. I'm beginning to see (March visit) tht apartment houses are getting nailed; once they drove the rats out of the transit yards they started hitting the frieghts. I saw enough freight cars in last years with Montana Rail Link that reminded me of the evil mess NYC was. Sorry to say but in Hamburg, Germany the commuter car fleet looked much like NYCT of those years we wish never happened.
However, I did see some small graffiti scrawl (probably done with a Sharpie marker) on the front end of the R17 car that is on display at the Transit Museum in downtown Brooklyn.
I have been paying attention.I'm just asking a question. If the MTA announced in the late 80's they rid the system of graffiti, how did a whole train mural end up in a scene of Law and Order
Well Borg, movies and reality frequently part company. If the art director wanted a fully painted train, he could have it painted by the studio (probably with watercolors) and wash it off after the filming.
Tom
Yes, off the road, in yards you can still see a few pairs with graffiti, some cars with blue-silver paint.
Is R16 #6339 at Coney still decked out in graffiti as is described in the Museum Roster?
Not spray paint or marker graffiti, that is under control. There is still plenty of graffiti left in the form of scratches. Yes, I still call it graffiti because that's what it is. The word scratchiti was invented by the TA so that they could say that the trains have no more graffiti. But graffiti is what it is and that's what I will continue to call it.
Peace,
ANDEE
The show probably used stock footage.
--Mark
I just want to say THANK YOU to the MOW gang, all those involved in restoring service at DeKalb. It was amazing that in what 6 or so hours service was restored for such a heavy travled route.
My feet also thank you, I didn't have to walk over to the F.
On the subject of derailments, here's a note:
For those interested, the cars involved in the derailment north of 59th St on the 5 back on 4/12/2000 have returned to service as of this week. The author of this post spotted them at the East (180th St Yard) recently, and they are now on the road. 7888, 89, 8696 and 8697 received the necessary repairs to make them serviceable. Talk about strange bedfellows, but the cars that returned to service (the R-28 and the R-29 pairs) were coupled together and operating on the 2.
The units received work on their trucks, but other than that they appear to have a clean bill of health.
-Stef
I saw a quick news clip of #2805's front end - she took quite a hit there, the fiberglas is all busted up down at the bottom center, her bonnet is ruined, it appears. Any comprehensive list of damages beyond this (perhaps including any to #2807)? I wonder if they have any spare fiberglas ends for R68/R68a...
wayne
Don't know for sure how this will pan out, but I'm sure they can do the repairs if the ends and sides weren't substantially crushed. Remember 2256?
-Stef
It looks like just damage near the bottom of the bonnet - like the wall it hit was just a low ledge maybe four feet high, with the pillar above and behind it. There did not appear to be any damage whatsoever to the stainless steel body behind the fiberglas end.
wayne
Did they have to call the Bondo Squad as well?
Believe it or not, they didn't call out the bondo squad. If it had been anymore serious that what occurred, I would have expected them to slap a new coat of paint on which they didn't do.
-Stef
Just the latest chapter in the John "Off His" Rocker story - totally scripted, staged, and produced (and "fines" paid for) by Braves management.
Even if he WERE to actually ride the Flushing Line, he'd be so surrounded by media that he wouldn't see the full cross-section of New York that makes the "International Express" so special.
If "Off His" Rocker chooses to get on the #7 sans media or police how many people would recognize him without his uniform and cap on? How many times have you passed a celebrity on the street and 10 feet later the light bulb of recognition goes off in your head??
I think that Rocker is defiant enough to announce at what time and station he's boarding the #7. Thankfully he'll be on an old R33/36 and not anything newer
Hart Bus f/k/a #9306 WF
Oh,well. There go the Neighborhoods.
Rocker fearz Redbirds!!
Not as much as he fears throwing a strike these days ...
How close is the Midway Airport CTA Station to the airport itself? I've realized over time that some "airport" stations aren't really at the airport. Is the Midway stop in the terminal, less than 5 minute walk from baggage claim, or is it like the station at JFK where the station is about 3 miles from the airport terminals?
Please respond ASAP because I'm on an 11:00 AM flight to Chicago tomorrow.
Thanks, in advance.
"Is the Midway stop in the terminal, less than 5 minute walk from baggage claim, or is it like the station at JFK where the station is about 3 miles from the airport terminals?"
Somewhat inbetween those two extremes.
The Midway station is on the other side of Cicero Avenue from the terminal, a bit more than a one block walk. The station and the terminal are connected by an enclosed skyway. There are elevators to the skybridge at either end, so you don't have to lug your luggage up and down stairs, and there are moving walkways for part of the length. (Part is the operative word.) It's not too bad.
The good news is that the Southwest Airlines (you *are* flying Southwest, right?) baggage claim area is right at that end of the terminal. The baggage carousels are literally next to the stairs and elevator leading up to the skybridge.
How did you know?
Thanks!
I might add that the O Hare station is nice and convenient too. Nothing is right at your fingertips in big city airports but CTA blue line train takes you as close to things as a taxi or high priced limo.
June 22nd, 2000
What caused the B train to derail at DeKalb Avenue? Was it the length of the R-68 cars, that caused a sideswipe? Was it a switching error? Was it the trucks on the car being loose?
Why did that B train stop at DeKalb Avenue going southbound? I looked at the B train schedule and found out that B trains ONLY STOP at DeKalb Avenue after 8pm, going NORTHbound, NOT SOUTHbound. Is that the only time B trains stop at DeKalb Avenue?
[What caused the B train to derail at DeKalb Avenue? Was it the length of the R-68 cars, that caused a sideswipe? Was it a switching error? Was it the trucks on the car being loose?]
Probably a switch problem.
[Why did that B train stop at DeKalb Avenue going southbound?]
A diversion resulting from maintenance work.
Not every single B train skips Dekalb Ave. Sometimes, the first morning B trains from Queensbridge stop at Dekalb going southbound. After 10 PM, some northbound B's run local north of 36th, forcing them to stop at Dekalb. It's not that unusual.
I heard that there was a work on the express track.
Chaohwa
I rode through the area where all the construction for the 63rd Street Connection was and found out the tracks are all in place now. Is it a good conlcusion that the 63rd Street Connection will open ahead of schedule, possibly as early as the Holiday shopping season 2000? What's going on now, that all the tracks are complete?
I walked through the Canal Street Bridge line station recently, making a connection from the BMT M train to the BMT N and R trains. The Northbound platform is finished, and now the Southbound platform is under construction. The work is going ahead of schedule, and someone told me that next year, the Manhattan Bridge will switch sides. True or False?
(I walked through the Canal Street Bridge line station recently, making a connection from the BMT M train to the BMT N and
R trains. The Northbound platform is finished, and now the Southbound platform is under construction. The work is going
ahead of schedule, and someone told me that next year, the Manhattan Bridge will switch sides. True or False? )
That was the plan, but they have to finish painting the south side of the bridge, and work seems to have slowed since that worker was blown off the bridge to his death.
[That was the plan, but they have to finish painting the south side of the bridge, and work seems to have slowed since that worker was blown off the bridge to his death.]
Of course, that was 50% of the workforce!
They're resignalling the whole Queens Plaza / 36st area. You can see new signals in place already, with bags covering them, along the existing as well as the new tracks. From 21/Queensbridge, you can see the same Orange lights way down the tunnel (during rush hour when no trains are blocking your view).
I think there is no tunnel lighting in that section yet, that's why the contractor's construction lights are still up.
Train Dude informed us on this site about two weeks ago that the switch will be made in July 2001, about a month before the scheduled opening of the connector.
When they say "Manhattan Bridge will switch sides"...what do they mean? Will the old BMT connection be restored in addition to the Chrystie Street tracks, or will they replace them temporarily? Can South-side tracks connect with Chrystie Street at all?
Right now:
Sixth Avenue tracks open
Broadway tracks closed
September 2001:
Sixth Avenue tracks closed
Broadway tracks open
2004(?):
Both sets of tracks open
David
What will happen? Will the 63rd Street Connection open together with the Boradway tracks over the Manhattan Bridge in 2001? What are the service plans as of now? Will they use the Broadway Connection from the 63rd Street Line to increase service on the Queens Blvd Lines to avoid the current overcrowding on the E, F and R Lines?
Good questions. Answers to come from NYCT by late summer/early fall.
David
Yes, I have not died
I had worse..high school
Don't worry I got straight A's
If I were able to change or make things in the MTA I would do the following.
1. Tear down the elevated lines for a new elevated structure, similar to the Cement Section of the Flushing Line. Except it will be graffiti free cement.
2. Build the Second Avenue Subway Line 8, 10, 11, 12, 14 (my version)
3. Make the Security around the yards stronger, so that graffiti and scrachitti are reduced by 25-50%
4. Rehabilitate every station in the system.
5. Build new subway cars that use the technology used in the R-32's, and some new technologies in it. (R-155)
Christopher Rivera
Mr. Rivera:
I agree with every one of your points except #1. If you were to replicate the Queens Blvd. section of the Flushing/Corona El on every elevated line, not only would you have to rip down the elevated structures thenselves, but every building along the routes. This is because the streets would have to be widened in order to accomodate the lost right-of-ways beneath the tracks. Aside from displacing thousands of people this would serve to rip out the heart of existing neighborhoods,(much as the late Robert Moses's freeways did a half century ago) and in all due respect, the last thing New York needs is another installment of "Robert's Refugees".
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
Chris, the first thing I would do is make the MTA more responsive to the public. They are an intentionally inaccessable organization, just look at their virtually useless website.
Yes we do, we need to quash NIMBYism.
We need a Rye-Oyster Bridge and to replace the Gowanus. After that, we can build the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway, rebuild the controlled access West Side Highway (in a tunnel) and build the South Shore Drive on Staten Island (basically a limited access Capodanno (sp?) Blvd going through Miller Field and then connecting to the present Hylan Blvd).
I would build the IND SECOND SYSTEM LINES with a few extras, such as a new BROADWAY JAMAICA SUBWAY to replace the Jamaica EL, a direct line to Jamaica Queen and Long Island through DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN, a connection from the 8th avenue stub tracks at the World Trade Center to the Broadway line at Courtlandt street,reroute BMT BROADWAY LINE over to the NASSAU street line via A NEW TUNNEL,and last, anew connection to the IND FULTON STREET LINE via the COURT STREET ST STUB. Jamaica/Nassau street trains would be diverted into the new Worth street line to serve as the new 8th ave local trains.
These seem to make a lot of sense except for the Jamaica plans.
The current route is more direct than via downtown Brooklyn. And the el is perfectly good that scarce subway money need not be spent.
If any lines deserves a replacement, it would be the 7. Four tracks would do it a lot of good.
Of course, if you don't remember, I made my proposal for a Second Avenue Subway. The money spent on the study can buy a fareless subway line, with the following amenities:
Trains:
Each train would consist of high backed, front facing seats made from Corinthian Leather. The train would be lit with soft lighting, fitting in perfectly with the mahogany walls. Each person, with their feet on the carpeted floor, clean enough to walk barefoot to enjoy the softness, would have their own entertainment center. These would contain electrical outlets, a television to be used both for watching TV, play on demand movies and videos, along with a sound system to match it, with the radio and a wide selection of music. Internet access would be provided to all patrons. A bulter would be available to answer customer's calls for orders of hors d'oeuvres and other small snacks, along with a wide drink menu, and for our adult patrons: a wine list. After filling up on crab puffs and spring rolls and the latest selection from the Napa Valley, one would then, if one should not wish to enjoy the electronic amenities, recline fully and take a well deserved rest. With pillows and a blanket delivered by the butler of course!
Stations
The stations would consist of many wide open and airy designs. Each station, would be designed by a different award winning architect, and if the architect is not award winning, the station would clinch it. They would be built with granite and marble and would include a fountain. Air Conditioning would be included, of course, but why? The water cascading from terraced walls and into wishing pools would not create a noise to overwhelm the senses, but to provide a soothing sound, that would complement the fine music from the grand piano played masterfully by a trained pianist. In busier stations, the pianist would be accompanied by a small chamber orchestra. If the water from the fountain causes one to get the urge to use the lavatory, these stations would be the place! Each bathroom would complement the design of the station, with automatic faucets (no more holding it down) and flushers, along with colored soaps and a couch in the one bathroom (building two bathrooms is always a waste of resources, better to spend the money to install a platinum handrail on the platform). Although why sit in the bathroom when you can sit in the luxuriously appointed waiting area and keep your feet on the Turkish rug, or it's compatriot, the Ottoman! And the most important feature of all, the doors on the stalls in the bathrooms would go all the way down to the floor.
The entrances to the stations would have to serve a double task. They would have to fit in with their surroundings, and provide the first step in a smooth transition between the ground and the station. However, each one is not to be bland and plain, it is to be as elegant as the station below, yet tasteful.
YOU,my friend,are one of a kind[and i mean that in a nice way]
Cars, Two Words Private Varnish Or One Word Mineola
Stations, See Beach's Station (Station Had fountains, Grand piano Chandilers and beverage service, Found Intact during construction of BRT Broadway Subway, Replaced by City Hall Subway Station on N & R Line.)
What would you do with the study money that was left over?
My changes would be as follows:
First it is not necessary to spend billions to replace 1400 Redbirds or anything else all at once when probably half of them are still in good shape. The worst could be used for parts and the rest used only on peak periods or rebuilt. The new cars are over one million dollars each and a lot can be done on rebuilding for a lot less money.
Next, new cars should not be so high tech; the more gadgets and complicated it is, the easier it is to breakdown and the harder it is to fix; trains have to be emptied and sit for hours because the computer can't be rebooted.
Next, thanks for the full width cabs. That is the end of looking out the front door. And the idea to have the motorman work the doors and get rid of the conductors shows the MTA bosses never ride the trains. Instead of accusing the Redbird of attemted murder on the little boy who was dragged with a conductor in the middle of the train, what would have happened if only the motorman was working the doors on that train. MTA's answer: the trains are being scrapped.
Next, I would build and finish the 2nd Ave subway with 4 tracks in Manhattan from the Battery to the Harlem river where it would cross, follow the New Haven RR ROW, branch off where it would connect with the Dyre Ave line at East 180 St similar to the NYW&B RR that was "wisely" dumped in the 1940's. If any of that ROW is still accessable in Mt Vernon, it could also be extended passed Dyre Ave station
The Queens lines should also be extended to the Nassau line
However a lot of solid state equipment in the new cars is cheaper and more reliable. All that's happening is the complexity and unreliability is moving to a different layer. It makes it better for everyone, even the maintenance teams in many cases.
This would never have happened if the Redbirds had door sensors.
And who closed the door on they boy's foot to begin with? You're praising the conductor for doing something, but doing something late and worse.
[My changes would be as follows: First it is not necessary to spend billions to replace 1400 Redbirds or anything else all at once when probably half of them are still in good shape. The worst could be used for parts and the rest used only on peak periods or rebuilt. The new cars are over one million dollars each and a lot can be done on rebuilding for a lot less money.]
Very true. Even if they don't need them right away they should mothball them. But then they'd be pressured to provide adequate service levels . . .
[Next, new cars should not be so high tech; the more gadgets and complicated it is, the easier it is to breakdown and the harder it is to fix; trains have to be emptied and sit for hours because the computer can't be rebooted.]
That's bad design, not high tech. Good design: if it doesn't work, two working computers outvote it. When the train goes back to the yard, pop it out and stick a new one in.
[Next, I would build and finish the 2nd Ave subway with 4 tracks in Manhattan from the Battery to the Harlem river where it would cross, follow the New Haven RR ROW, branch off where it would connect with the Dyre Ave line at East 180 St similar to the NYW&B RR that was "wisely" dumped in the 1940's. If any of that ROW is still accessable in Mt Vernon, it could also be extended passed Dyre Ave station.
The Queens lines should also be extended to the Nassau line.]
I think you're right about Dyre Avenue. I'd also add Pelham Bay Park. Conversion to B div would increase its capacity, and this would provide two lines each to the Lex and 2nd Avenue, all of which could work at full capacity rather than being limited by the capacity of the line (you'd have to add a turnaround to make up for the 2).
I wouldn't extend the Queens lines to the Nassau line though--I'd make that part of the Second Avenue. Easy enough to transfer from the Queens lines at the 2nd Avenue stops, and after building the second avenue we wouldn't need the capacity or coverage in Manhattan (for once).
--Four track second Avenue subway, connected to Pelham Bay and Dyre Avenue in the Bronx and with a spur to GCT and running from a superstation station at 125th and Lex. Two branches downtown, one on Water Street and one the existing Nassau Branch.
--Hybrid service via the commuter lines for better subway coverage, direct commuter access to the business districts, superexpresses
--Manhattan crosstown lines so that commuting becomes a three step deal--car or bus or local to express or commuter RR or Ferry to local in the business district
--Premium one seat ride with checkin on the train to and between the three regional airports with convenient subway/PATH access for airport workers
--Welded rail, track alignment, more frequent wheel grinding etc. for smooth, silent running
--OPTO and unattended stations, followed by CBTC and ZPTO with platform doors for safe air conditioned quiet clean stations
--Complete camera coverage of the system
--More cars on all lines to virtually eliminate standing during rush hour. Stations extended where necessary.
--Widened platforms at unsafe stations like 72nd and 14th
--All stations renovated--that means ceilings, guys!
--Complete park and ride accomodations to make it cheaper and easier for people to leave their cars outside of the City no matter where they're coming from
--Hybrid busway service using subway-loading fuel cell powered vehicles. The subway would become more of an express service in outlying areas, with express nodes fed by the buses which would have the same stops as the current locals. This would signficantly speed up commuting from the boros and allow immediate extension of enahnced subway-level service to underserved areas.
--PATH integration
--High speed operation on all subways--at least 80 mph, whatever the theoretical maximum is given tunnel size and curves
--Some kind of transit on the far West Side, possibly the busway service
--Stops on second avenue for all the lines that pass it
--High speed motorized walkways where stations are a block apart & more transfers
--metrocard surface transfer between stations that aren't connected
--High speed ferry service direct to the business districts and a waiting subway
--Direct NJT, LIRR and MN access downtown as a second phase, with a tunnel from NJ to the WTC to Atlantic Avenue and MN coming down either the West or East side
--Rebuild Penn Station, alrealdy the world's largest transportation complex, into a magnificent hub to serve Amtrak, the commuter lines, the regions three airports, the Port Authority bus terminal, and most of the City's subway lines
After nearly 24 hours of flight, I am in Taipei now. I will stay here until July 12.
It is 12:17 AM on Friday now. Maybe I will start a field trip on Taipei's MRT system later.
I am glad that I can connect SubTalk from Taipei!
Chaohwa
Enjoy the visit. What is the width of any electric rail cars (rapid transit? tram?) in service?
Again this dream was about PATCO, but it was way cool. I was on my way with some people to some sort of party or sporting event in the first car of a PATCo train. I was stationed at the RFSD. We went down into the tunnel section in Camden and into Broadway. It was night and everything was dimly lit. Broadway looked almost like a DC metro station with the wide island platform and all, but it had the same cut and cover I beam walls and roof (only the roof was about 20 feet high). We left broadway, but is\nstead of going over the Ben Franklin bridge we went over the Hell Gate Bridge. We entered at tunnel on the other side where I saw some notable things like an underground diamond crossing with another transit line. Then the line became single track and at a few occasions we left the tunnel for deep cuts. It was still night out, but everything was lit with moon light. The single track went back in a tunnel wide enough for 2 tracks. I wondered how they coud handle the rush hour with only one track. At some point I got off the train and spent some time wandering about a building. Then somewho I found myself back on the train going back over the Hell Gate bridge (this time the arch span was made of poured concrete) I got off with some friends at Broadway (which was really dark) in order to poke about the station and get a better seat on the next train. Me and my friendwent down to the end of the platform to get a look at the signals at the interlocking. In my dream the interlocking was at the west end of the station instead of the east. I started to screw around with the wrong way signal on the eastbound track when I disconnected it and it went dark. In trying to re-connect it with some wires I found I completely blew out the lunar white aspect. As I tried to reconnect the signal I saw the light from an approaching train. One friend had fallen asleep next to the track so I pulled him away and we hid in the shaddows. I was afraid that the trainwould stop and not proceede past he out of order signal as this would mean I would never get home. However the train went right past it (at which point I realized it was the wrong way signal and eastbound trains didn't need it) At this point I decided to catch the train. Ufortunitly all of our stuff was spread arraround the platform post platform area. This included a malite, some shoes and many many pens, pencils and markers. I still have no clue where they came from. As I tried to gather my stuff the darkened station was filled with people getting out from the party/sports event. Well we wereunable to get all of our stuff together and we missed the train. We also missed the next train. Right before the next next train came all the lights went on in the station. What looked like a signal maintainer walked up, past the broken signal and into a plywood shak. He proceeded to open up the shak like a vendor opens up his cart. I then realized that it was a part time interlocking tower. The worker set the switches and a train arrived. Me along w/all the party goeer got in and we went home.
If you had a magic wand that could change our national hi-waysystem to a national subway system would you? Basically where ever there is a big road there would be a subway. If you wanted to go from place to place you would have to take the train or a 4 wheel drive vehicle.
Mike;
You cannot have all roads or all subways. They both have their uses where one or the other is better. If you are moving just people, the subways are more efficient, but if a person wants to take a bunch of packages with him, the automobile is a better choice. Also the goods that move by truck could not be handled by subways as we now know them.
And of course a "national subway system" is not practical. Somehow I cannot imagine anyone no matter how fanatic a railfan he is, wanting to ride from New York to Los Angeles on a subway train.
Tom
First you have a magic wand so you don't have to worry about money. Second railraods and airplanes would still be around for long distance travel. Since we basically have an all road transport system I wanted to see if anyone would rather have an all rail transport system. There would be some local roads here and ther, but subways and light rail would be used for the majority of local transportation. Subways would become what roads are today. I'd use the wand if i got it. I like subways and I also like off roading.
Mike;
I'm afraid the public has already shown the preference for travel in private cars over public rail transportation. The destruction of the trolley lines and light rail transportation at the mid point of the 20th Century is proof of that.
Public rail transportation is only successful in areas like NYC where there is an economic incentive to use the public transportation is great. If there were cheap parking available in Manhattan and all the expressways were suddenly widened to twice there current capacity (with your magic wand) ridership on the subways would surely drop precipitously.
Tom
Unless this magic wand made cars disappear when parked and reappeared when one wants to use them again, with all this new parking in Manhattan, it will be a pretty long elevator ride from where the car can be parked (probably in a deep underground garage) to the street level that some may go back to the subway.
Now wouldn't that be a subway trip?
New York to LA at the railfan window of say, a slant R-40, with a station every half mile, and no bathroom breaks.
I wonder how long a trip like that would take?
A station every half-mile? Might as well be served by the R-68's. If the R-40's are going to run to L.A., it had better be an express run!
I thought that a trip like that would require a really nice railfan window! :-)
I wonder how long a trip like that would take?
http://reservations.amtrak.com
-- David
Boston, MA
But Amtrak doesn't have a station stop every half mile!
They don't? It sure seems like it. But at least they have enough delays to simulate the effect.
-- David
Boston, MA
In addition, most transmetropolitan, extraurban transportation is not well suited by rail transportation, One would have to implement multiple transfers and sporadic schedules, which would make it unappealing, or high subsidies or high fares to keep headways up. Both have their problems, and the transfers would still be there.
Regional rail transportation is good only if there are only a couple of central points for a large amount of travel. For everything else, only a car will do.
This is something I've actually given some thought to, mainly as I was driving my rented U-Haul truck across five states from Chicago to Boston last month.
I wouldn't replace the interstates with subways per se, but I'd put French TGV-style high-speed rail lines down the median of every major interstate highway, and convert the freeways to tollways to offset the cost. (People who use the highways should play by the same rules as those of us who use the subway: You gotta pay if you want to ride.)
Just out of curiosity, what are the curve tolerances on the French TGV lines compared to our own typical interstate highways? (Given Acela's luck so far, let's assume the trains don't use any sort of tilting trucks.) It would be nice to think they are similar, at least in rural areas where high speeds are most feasible. Inquiring minds want to know...
-- David
Boston, MA
which current and past subway car model has the highest percentage of loss due to wrecks, fires and the least loss.
I am posting this in hopes that one of our tech people may do a page for each model (past and present) showing the percentage lost- both on route miles and nunmber of cars.
Check out the Subway FAQ. It's at the top of the message index.
My Favorite Subway sound is when the G.E controllers are put into full service. I always like watching my friend Jeff operate the number 7 line, because Eventually he gets tired of holding the Dead-man controller, and after a couple of stops he pulls 80lbs of air and lets go of the dead-man and it makes the Spifff sound that only G.E controllers make. I hate how quiet the Westinghouse Controllers are.
My favorite all-time sound? Spur-cut bull and pinion gear musical pitch on prewar equipment.
.....I totally agree with that plus the pre world war 2 trolley sounds you can hear at transit museums etc...
same type of sounds & or similar or at least close.......man do i miss not hearing all of the pre world war 2 equipment !!
ALSO the sounds the redbirds make on the elevated sectionds of each route like the 5 2 7 maybe the 6 4
when you hear the music of the rails & wheels slaming into each other ""slam clack clackity clack slam clack clackity.!!
& the faster you go the quicker the music plays .....cant wait till this october..!! ( its hard to describe sounds )...
The sounds of a Low V leaving a station & picking up speed.
............NOW THATS REAL MUSIC ......!!!!!!..........but what do the r 142s fans know about a .. REAL SUBWAY ..car??
What do you know about reality?
Admittedly there are generation gaps. Much like those who missed steam loco's.many of us still wish we could have the sounds of the first generation equipment every time we ride electric rails. The rivited steel cars, traction motor sounds, the smell of ozone and cast iron brake shoes, the rock and roll on jointed track.. these are things that made the railroad the fun it was. And the IRT sounded best. Not an argument..just a thought from over the hill.
..........more than you.....( example ).....I can & do vote & drive a vehicle..... dont still live with my mommy........
& you probably are young enogh to be my great grandson .........( SMILE ).........!!!!!!!!!!!
so dont take it so hard young man I was your age back in the late 1960s.......!!!!!!!
Well, I CAN vote and DO drive a vehicle.
Why do you think I talk about the lack of choices in the next election? My health?
And before comments are made, that "vehicle" I'm referring to is an automobile. I also happen to have my own if you want to know.
.....do you remember when you told all of the subtalkers on this forum that you were too young to vote ??
also you are still living at home with your parents ?? ..... Last time I lived with my father it was 1972 ..!!
&...... were you even born then young man.???? I was a full grown man in my 20s then...!!!!!!!!!!!!.....
I remember when my grandparents lived on murray street in flushing new york & when I visited them often
the WF 33-=36 were brand new & a pretty light blue & the R-1 thru R -9s were running !!!!! Were you around then
young man & or were you even born yet ?????...........!
".....do you remember when you told all of the subtalkers on this forum that you were too young to vote ??"
That was what I told them then. If you told someone you were too young to vote back in the 50s or 60s, does that mean thay you weren't old enough in 1970 to vote? Similar thing except it involves shorter spans of time.
There's actually a more detailed explanation, but there's no reason for me to get to it.
"also you are still living at home with your parents ??"
Yes, so what? All that it means is that I don't have a job that pays high enough to afford a decent apartment. It's impossible to obtain such a thing with only 3 consecutive summers of having a job as opposed having one continuously, and with my highest degree being a high school diploma (all right, not for another 5 days). The reason for having all of that is not having enough years in my life to get further.
.....please grow up young man there are plenty of years ahead of you & the hard knocks of life ........GOOD LUCK !!!!
especially the X & Y generation of today....... you are going to need all the help from your family & friends that
you can get . my son is in his early 30s & is still working & slugging it out just like you are.......( SMILE )....
..........more than you.....( example ).....I can & do vote & drive a vehicle..... dont still live with my mommy........
& you probably are young enough to be my great grandson .........( SMILE ).........!!!!!!!!!!!
so dont take it so hard young man I was your age back in the late 1960s.......!!!!!!!
The breaking of the Rohr cars here in DC is a great sound.
that is BRAKING, yes? That's quite a noise they make, with the two sets of brakes applying at once.
The Bredas don't make that joyful noise.
How are the Rohrs doing these days, anyway? Last I knew they were restricted to the Red Line.
wayne
Well, most everybody knows THIS, but my favorite subway sound is the shriek of steel wheel on steel rail going around a tight curve.
Our "B" train (an R40, led by #4312) put on quite an aria last Saturday as it turned hard into the 4th Avenue subway from the West End cut. Just as we turned in, an R68A led by #5024 poked its head out of the tunnel. This curve is notorious for making trains (especially the older ones) sing.
wayne
Hey Wayne. I was in Toronto a couple of weeks ago and since I heard so much about their subway on this board I decided to take it. You'd be happy to know their wheels really screech loudly on the curves before and after the Union Station stop.
My favorite subway sound..
and I'm probably not alone on this one..
::drumroll::
the r142's going thru the mulcher.
::bowing::
I feel happy knowing that it will be the Repulsive Rustbirds that will instead live out that glory.
....they will outlast the 142s south ferry....!!!
>>....they will outlast the 142s south ferry!!!
without doubt.
Your line will have neither until 2030 (scrapping of R62s).
My favorite subway sounds, in no particular order:
* MBTA Red Line Bombardier trains decelerating as they pull into a station, and accellerating out of the station. Something about those AC motors... What cool sounds!
(I'm now taking the Red Line every day since starting work at a small architecture firm near Central Square in Cambridge last week. I hope to move to Cambridge or Somerville later this summer, since my commute from Brookline takes a full hour. The Green Line has its charm from a railfan perspective, but is pure hell in terms of day-to-day commuting.)
* CTA trains squealing around the Loop curve at Lake/Wabash, preferbly while I'm munching on a big fat sub from Mangino's down below.
* The roar of a CTA Blue Line train through the tunnel between Division and Clark/Lake, before the Grand stop was re-opened and during weekends while the Chicago stop is closed. The speeds attained on this stretch were incredible.
* I think New York subways in general have a pretty cool sound, but maybe that's because the novelty of riding an unfamiliar system still hasn't quite worn off.
* The air brakes on the Metra Electric (IC) trains make pretty cool sounds. Unusually short and abrupt.
-- David
Boston, MA
That roar on the Blue line makes even the R-10s seem quiet as mice. I came to the conclusion long ago that Chicago's subway tunnels double as giant echo chambers. You almost have to wear ear protection if you don't want to go deaf.
I like the speed, though. No complaints there.
If you think the modern CTA cars are noisy I think they're quiet compared to the 6000's/ (Spam cans). David Cole had some good thoughts: high speed stretch on the Blue Line. I'd have to add as one of my favorites if not better yet: going to North & Clybourn northbound or leaving there southbound, on the red line.
The 2600s were a major disappointment the last time I rode on them in 1996. I though they were just as noisy as the 6000s. The 2000s weren't too bad, back when they ran on what is now the Red line.
Either an Electro-Penumatic switch operating or a good subway train hotn sounded in the tunnel at speed.
Pinging pinions.
The Daily News reports today that NYCT plans to increase service on the A, E, F, and L lines, in some cases by pulling cars from the BMT Eastern Division Lines... so we might get to see some rolling stock variation on those lines soon. Hopefully they'll make the F a mix of 46's and 40/42's so that when I go down to do the station by station photo shoot of the Culver there will be some variety...
-Dave
Sounds like a deep service cut on the J/M/Z. Where else could the cars be coming from?
I get the feeling that a lot of people moved over the A/C/E/L when the Willie B was out, liked it better, and never went back. But if they cut the J/M/Z service much lower it will cease to be usable.
Nassau St service is bad enough already, as I can fully attest to. I doubt any significant are even feasible, let alone probable.
My bet is that M service from Bay Pkwy will be reduced, Right now, M service in the PM rush starts leaving Bay Parkway at 3:09 PM. All the trains up to the 4:29 are inserts from the CI yard. This service is really redundant and this is where some cars could be taken.
BTW, ridership on the J/M/Z lines has not only returned to pre-bridge closure levels, it's increased. This idea that people switched to the A and L last summer and never came back is an incorrect assumption.
This just goes to show you that the T.A cares very little for the J/M and Z lines and if they could, the route would be removed from service and torn down. They still have the''slash and burn'' mindset from years ago. First it was the MYRTLE AVE EL,removal of the JJ/RJ and KK/K lines,express service cut back to almost nothing,removal of the QJ and service cut back to 121 st WAY BEFORE the Archer avenue line was close to being finished. The ordering of new cars with the knowledge before hand that the cars could not operate on the Eastern Division routes because of clearance problems,nor was the atempt made to correct those so-called clearance to operate the 75 footers.So of course we were stuck with the old R40m/42/27-30s and R16s for yearsup to this very day.
Yep, another reason that the Archer Ave connection was a tremendous waste of money. If you're gonna spend billions on a new subway connection, you better be prepared to maximize it's potential ...
My words excatly.The whole 63rd street/Archer ave mess was[to me] a waste of time and money.Its A SHAME that the original routing for these lines never were built,AND because they weren't,the 63rd st line not do what it was suppose to do ''RELIEVE THE OVERCROWEDING ON THE QUEEN BLVD SUBWAY''.Nor will the Archer''REACH RIDERS CURRENTLY UNSERVED BY SUBWAY SERVICE IN SOUTHEAST QUEENS''. Talk about not being able to finish what you started?If you wasnt sure before, take a good look across the a East River at the 3 long holes in the ground the T.A. built in the 70's under 2 Avenue> KAME' OUT>
It has the Actual details
Here's the article:
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-06-22/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-70793.asp
Comments are welcome.
Why do people continue to assert that ridership has fallen off on the J and M after the bridge re-opened last September? It hasn't.
The only portion of the Nassau St. line that can absorb service cuts is the M train south of Broad St. to Bay Pkwy.
The article says "He said reduced ridership on J and M lines stems from TA construction along those lines, and the TA should be luring those riders back".
Why should the TA try to lure them back? It's not like their using different types of transportation. They're just using different lines.
The TA doesn't seem to enjoy putting anything but R-46s on the F, they probably will put the R-40M/42 on the E and R and shift more R-46s to the F.
A more likely scenerio is that the slant R40's assigned to the L line will be x-fered to Coney Island, assigned to the N, thus allowing R32's to be transferred to Jamaica.
BTW, only the increased A service will actually require more cars than the line has assigned to it today.
Of course, heaven forbid the TA diversify the routes with a more random selection of trains. The only decent route in terms of randomness is the N (R32/R40 Slant/R68/Rare R68A/R42 during Willy B rehab), with the A a close second (R38/R44/Rare R32). All I ever see on my line are R32s and R46s. I got excited when I saw an R68 signed as an N, but it was OOS and vanished into Jamaica yd, never to be seen again (by me). The R38s on the E for the WTC switch replacement were great, there was 1 ten car consist the first 3 days, it was broken up and distributed during the middle of the GO, and was reunited the last 3 days.
Personally, I like the car class/route connection. Although I might change my mind in 20 years when the R46s are the oldest cars in the system.
No way, the R32 will still be around....LOL
I think 32s will last longer than 44s but not 46s
I wonder if the R-46s will become identified with the F the way the R-10s were synonimous with the A, or the R-36s with the 7.
or the 68s to the D
Or the 46 to the R
or the 16 to the J
I always identified the R16's with the "EE"; the "QJ" was more identified by R27/R30s.
In post GOH days, you could argue for identifying the R42s and R40Ms with the "J" line, and Slant R40s could be argued for identification with the "Q" or the "B".
wayne
And R44's to the A line at the end of one century and the beginning of the next!
I always associate the R27/30 with the Eastern division, as I rarely ever rode them on any other lines (except the old Astoria RR and the Franklin Ave. Shuttle) and the R38/R44 with the A line.
30 was on the C
Briefly, but I only rode them once or twice. I really cant associate the R30 with the C, as I do the R10 with the C line.
It's true, Chris. The R30s went to the C line when the R10s were retired from road service, and then were replaced by the R32s and R38s when the B Division Redbirds were retired about 9 or 10 years ago. It's funny though. The only other line I saw the R30s on during their last days was, believe it or not, the M.
Yes, I remember that the red R30's were on the C line during the time the R44/46's were being GOH'd. But it's still not the line I would associate them with.
That's how I feel now about the 2 train with the oldest cars in the system. That will hopefully change within the next several months.
Your transfer senario of cars is right on the money. The entire B division has so many cars to work with. If the Eastern division needs more or less cars, slant R40's are either sent to CI or sent from CI. The Eastern Division needs a set number of trains. If the J/M/Z cuts in actual trainsets is equal to the additional trainsets required on the L, then no slants would have to be transfered to/from CI. Due to SMS of the R42's, "the east" has some borrowed slants at the present time. The A line will need additional trainsets. They will either have to cut down on their spares or get additional Phase 1 R32's from Jamaica. Jamaica may be required to get some R32 Phase 2's from CI as replacements. The additional service on the E & F would require no additional transets, as additinal service would run in the evening, so in effect simply more mileage would be placed on the cars and trains would be laid up later in the evening vs. when they are presently laid up. If CI has to send Phase 2 R32's to Jamaica, then they may need slants to be transfered from "the east." What transfers will be needed from where to where, I'm sure is already known internally at Jay St.
Reducing service on the redundant M service along the southern division BMT lines (ending it earlier in the AM, starting it later in the PM) would be the least painful way to implement those necessary service cuts.
But had the TA kept the R30's in storage, this dilema wouldn't even exist.
In order to run the M service to/from Bay Pkwy (just by considering the running time) you would need X number of trains based on the headway. Basically it presently runs on a 10 minute headway, with an 8 or 9 minute headway for only about an hour. By reducing layover time at the terminals you only need 1 or 2 extra trains to run on less than 10minute headway. The others (I don't know the exact #) are in CIYD simply to allow the service to be extended from Chambers St. to Bay Pkwy. during the rush. So what I am saying is this:by ending it earlier in the AM and starting it later in the PM you would need the same number of trains (assuming the same headway), but the cars themselves would get less mileage (some trainsets may make a half trip less).
What's wrong with cutting the M Service back to 9th Avenue? You can terminate on the center track. I barely see anyone riding the M in Brooklyn along the West End. The passengers of the M can easily hope on a B Train and go to 9th Avenue. The B is never full.
Not only that!!!!!Give it the old culver line platform it would be nice to see them in use
I worked for years in Bensonhurst and rode the M. The first M to leave Bay Pkwy. in the Afternoon is at 3:09 PM. This is WAY too early.
By starting the M's at 3:59 instead, it would free up 48 cars. This would leave a gap between the last train leaving Chambers until the first train from Bay Pkway arrives there. Continue terminating M trains at Chambers until 4 PM. Use a couple of fill-ins from Broad St., like they presently do in the AM to bridge the gap between the last M shuttle and the first Bay Pkway train.
Dave,
As one who likes to use my camcorder, and tape from the front window, ANY car type with the "railfan" window on the F line (or any other line that normally does not use equipment with that window) would please me to no end!
Tony
You would've enjoyed today's G.O., for one small section bet. Jay St. and West 4th, the A and C were on the F in the Manhattan bound direction. Still be there tomorrow.
Not only that, but with such a G.O., you'd get to see the switch maneuver before W. 4th St. I've got to see that layout sometime; it fascinates me to no end.
Dave,
As one who likes to use my camcorder, and tape from the front window, ANY car type with the "railfan" window on the F line (or any other line that normally does not use equipment with that window) would please me to no end!
Tony
You would've enjoyed today's G.O., for one small section bet. Jay St. and West 4th, the A and C were on the F in the Manhattan bound direction. Still be there tomorrow.
Not only that, but with such a G.O., you'd get to see the switch maneuver before W. 4th St. I've got to see that layout sometime; it fascinates me to no end.
NYC Transit Subdivision B
Subway Schedules effective November 2000
A Line
From upper manhattan to Midtown -
Additional SB service between 0830 to 0900 .Service Freq increased from 6- 8 mins to now every 6 mins.
Additional SB Service between 1930 to 2100 hrs .from Manhattan to Brooklyn ,,Service increased from 10 mins to now every 8 minute.
E and F Queens Blvd .
1 F line trip will be shifted later in the Rush and a second trip will be addded.between 430 and 5 PM ,F Line freq will be modified from every 4-5 mins to every 5 mins..from 6 PM to 630 ,freq will increase from every 5 ins to every 3.5 to 5 mins.betw 730 PM to 10 PM ,,E and F service freq will be increased frm every 6 to 10 to every 5 to 8 mins
J LIne.
will be reduced between 730 AM to 8 am from every 5 mins to every 6 to 7 mins. and will be reduced bet 430 PM to 5 PM from every 6-7 mins to every 8 mins.
M Line
.
from Metro Av will be reduced between 8 AM to 830 AM from every 6-10 mins to every 10 mins. Service to Bay Prkway will be reduced from 5 PM to 6 PM from every 8 mins to every 10 mins.Between 7 PM to 9 PM ,,,service freq will be increased from every 12 mins to 20 mins to every 12 mins.
1 Train set reduced frmo the J and 1 Train set reducted from the M Line.
L Line..
additional weekday service bet 6 AM to 11 PM ,,.Additional service will be provided in the early morning shoulder ,the span of he 4 mins morning peak service will be extended ,,the evening peak service will be increased from every 4.5. minutes to every 4 minutes and the service freq will be increased in the evening until 11 PM .THe additional rush hour servcie will be provided using the 2 train sets made available by the J and M line service modifications
I have heard of confirmed sightings of the E Train shirt by Straphanger Designs. I hear it looks just like the F Train shirt, except it says E, Queens to Manhattan. I was wondering if any of you knew Straphanger Designs Phone number, or anyone who knows where this shirt can be purchased. Thank you, and please post a Response, or Email me at Railroadman43@Altavista.com
Transit Museum Stores in the Museum in Brooklyn or at the store at Grand Central.
E? Pooh.
I want one with A, L, or Q.
wayne
pass me a ( 9 ) and the set is done
I'll second the A.
You don't care for the E train, either, do you? Join the club.
Hell yeah. The E is my home line. A Quick Railfan on the E relaxes me. I like the R32's or R46's! Leave the E Alone!
DON'T BE A RAILHATA!!!!
I have nothing against the "E" train per se, it's just the smelly skells that live in it.
Love those R32-Phase II's...
wayne
You can't make one yourself? With an inkjet printer and T-shirt iron on paper, you can with good results. Before the PC improved in affordability, I had bought from a train dispatcher a spray painted green R10 on a T-shirt with the porthole window. I wore it on the 1989 fan trip and it lasted many years. I am working on a T-shirt with an R127 with the Flushing Line in the background with the title, "AshHaul Operator". Adobe photoshop can do wonders.
You can take the images to a shirt maker who can print it on for you.
Does the redistribution of equipment away from the J and other Eastern Division trains imply a lack of long-term viability for these older lines? Are they heavily used, or are they becoming obsolete?
As I understand it, the shift from the JM to the L does reflect changing usage patterns.
You'd be wrong. Ridership on the L line has increased, but ridership on the J, M and Z has NOT decreased. Basically, the shortage of cars will screw J and M riders because these 2 lines haven't had the dramatic ridership increases other lines have seen.
Boy, wouldn't those 90+ R30A redbirds come in handy right about now ...
[Boy, wouldn't those 90+ R30A redbirds come in handy right about now ... ]
But of course the MTA will throw everything away.
Look what they did to the Triplexes.
I dunno what you mean, I rode on triplexes last weekend!
;-) Dave
With a bit of luck, maybe someday I'll get to ride on them myself. Judging from that smile, I gather you know what I meant.
Run the Triplex as a rush hour special on the Canarsie line!!!
I heard there was a question as to whether or not the ramps leading down to the surface portion would support their weight. Other than that, they could certainly run in the subway portion.
Perhaps they'll learn their lesson and keep a sizeable amount of redbirds.
Perhaps the R143 order should've been given a priority over the R142, at least the ones built by Kawasaki (which is building the R143).
Hope so. But I have an uncomfortable feeling that it's politically better to throw them away--that way they can plead car shortages rather than increasing service.
Someone at the MTA apparently has decided that since many of the R-40/40M/42s are headed off the Eastern Division eventually when the R-143s arrive, they might as well do it now.
Plus -- and probably the most important reason -- the Eastern Division doesn't go anywhere near Midtown, so the loss of cars on the J/M/Z is unlikely to generate as much media attention as taking cars off one of the lines on the three main trunk routes through the Midtown area. Outside of Todd, I doubt anyone from one of the main TV or radio stations has gotten near riding the M/J/Z, unless they went down the wrong stairway by accident near City Hall and got on the wrong train.
Hey, 90,000 people ride those lines, and I'm one of 'em. Besides, cutting service on the J will just force more Jamaica riders to use the E, which will crowd those trains even more, negating any advantage extra trains would give.
Does the early retirement of the R30's in 1993 now rate as the dumbest move in transit history, given the surge of ridership in the late 90's? In my book, it's a close second to demolishing the outer portion of the Jamaica Ave. el and replacing it with a subway that cost billions.
[Does the early retirement of the R30's in 1993 now rate as the dumbest move in transit history, given the surge of ridership in the late 90's? In my book, it's a close second to demolishing the outer
portion of the Jamaica Ave. el and replacing it with a subway that cost billions.]
Yet both of these admittedly boneheaded moves pale in comparison to the Beame Shuffle.
Beame shuffle?
The financial maneuvers that led NYC to the edge of bankruptcy, masterminded by Abe Beame.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re what was the Beame Shuffle]
[The financial maneuvers that led NYC to the edge of bankruptcy, masterminded by Abe Beame.]
More specifically, the diversion of federal funds earmarked for construction of the Second Avenue subway to cover operating expenses. This enabled Dishonest Abe to avoid the political heat of the five-cent fare increase that would have covered the deficits. Needless to say, it also killed off the Second Avenue line, probably forever.
Would the 5 cent fare increase really have been enough to cover the operating expenses of the system in the 70's? Either way, the 2nd Ave. line was doomed, fare increase or not.
[Would the 5 cent fare increase really have been enough to cover the operating expenses of the system in the 70's? Either way, the 2nd Ave. line was doomed, fare increase or not.]
Supposedly, yes. But Beame knew that even a modest increase like that would have been unpopular with the voters and would have hurt his chances of re-election. In any event, he ended up as a one-term mayor.
Had there been no such financial shenanigans, it's entirely possible that the Second Avenue line would have been completed. Federal funds were available and had been earmarked for the line. Beame's diversion of the funds to operating costs was perfectly legal. Congress had never anticipated that anyone would try to use the funds for anything but new construction and therefore never thought to add anti-diversion language to the appropriations legislation.
Unfortunately the money from the original l947 2nd ave. subway bonds were also diverted: to new cars, new lighting and station painting. Those were items that should have come from their budget; on the Subject of Beame... yes, great hope after Lindsay; he was city comptroller for a few terms before being mayor and while he was mayor the city almost went bankrupt. Joke of the time: Did you know they're going to tear down City Hall? No, I didn't. They have to..they found a rotten Beame in it.
Rim shot!!! I've been itching to hit that button again.:-)
You can't really blame the BOT or TA for diverting funds back then. As I understand, the subway system in general was in desperate need of rehab.
All in all, I don't think that Abe Beame can be held individually responsible for the City's bankruptcy. Although he certainly was involved in his capacity as Comptroller. It was a symptom of those times: the City was expected to provide ever-increasing levels of spending, even while its economic base was eroding due to de-industrialization and the flight of corporations from urban problems and taxation. Frankly, Lindsay probably made the problem worse by increasing taxation in the City. Many corporations left to avoid them, undermining the tax base and perhaps resulting in less overall tax revenue.
Frankly, in the context of those days, it really was neither surprising nor improper for Beame to suspend a major project like the Second AVenue Subway. In the early 1970's, many people reasonably thought that NYC was we knew it, and know it now, would not survive. Why build another subway under those circumstances?
Actually I lay much of the blame for the city's financial troubles at the time on Lindsay with all his free for alls for some. Admittedly he didn't institute those systems but it seemed anything went while he was mayor. I never really blamed Beame, but it did seem fishy since if anyone would know it would have been he.
Hey, I still think as the R-142s come in they ought to retrofit some of the IRT Redbirds with platform extenders for rush hour-only use on the Eastern Division until the R-143s arrive, though it's been pointed out the insurance attorneys may have some safety concerns. That would at least provide a partial soultion to the problem for the year to 18 months between the time the 63rd Street tunnel and Manny B are scheduled to open and the time the 143s arrive.
(Hey, I still think as the R-142s come in they ought to retrofit some of the IRT Redbirds with platform extenders for rush hour-only use on the Eastern Division until the R-143s arrive.)
If you believe Steve B, they should keep some Rebirds for extra rush hour service on the Lex. Didn't the TA install new interim signals on the Lex to increase capacity to 30 tph some time ago?
Union Sq. gapfillers make that many trains impossible.
Union Sq. gapfillers make that many trains impossible.
The Union Sq gap fillers (along with the Brooklyn Bridge gap fillers) were in place in 1954. They did not prevent 32 tph service levels.
Just how much of an increase do you think the present gap fillers introduce to dwell time? I took some measurements today, so I'm very interested this latest NYCT non-performance excuse.
Don't push the panic button! I don't think that they'll cut THAT much service off the J/Z. Even if the TA cuts the J/Z in half, I still think the E will be more crowded. I can speak before the WillyB closed since I have been working the E since. On the J/M/Z, passengers tend to ride in the end cars leaving the middle cars relatively empty since the stairway exits are at the ends of the platforms. Queens bound leaving Bway Myrtle, the first 2 cars of M trains are crowded, the last 6 are light. On the J/Z, the first 2 and last 2 cars carry the load.
Then 6 car M trains would be the best way to go, IMHO.
That may be tough due to the equivalent of 10 car trains on the other southern lines. Also, I think the M needs all 8 cars because of the inadequate service levels at the local stations between Bway-Myrtle & Marcy during the rush when the J/Z runs express (discount the current service plan due to the current reconstruction of Bway Myrtle interlocking). Think of it: against the heavy passenger flow 3 services in effect (J/Z/M); with the heavy passenger load only 1 (M). If anything, since the combined headway on the J/Z is 5 minutes currently, leave the J/Z alone but run 6 cars there. I think it can work. But I must assume that the headway will be no better than 6 minutes apart when the cutbacks take effect in the fall and they'll probably keep 8 cars since some people who can get a seat would now have to stand if 2 less cars are run on the same headway. And some more folks would have to stand on and extended headway as well. BTW: another thing: I read on a GO that Wheel detectors will be placed into operation at Essex St. Translation: slow down the railroad and they can't run as many trains! When I last worked there, the Chambers St. wheel detectors were shut off. Are these on now? If they are not and these are turned on as well, you will see 5 MPH operation so the motorman can cover himself against being accused of overspeeding due to a malfunction in the system.
You cannot run 6 cars on the J and Z, especially at rush hour. I ride these lines every day. It's impossibe, so don't even bother discussing it.
The point is the T.A. is thinking of doing this. T.A. management believes the impossible will work.
Absolutely not!
You have the M running local on the stations between Marcy and Myrtle/Bway, and if there is crowding on those cars, you'd have Tokyo-sized crowds, given the M's pretty mediocre headway.
Final answer: Six-car M trains are not an option.
I'd also have to say that I am a rider on the M whenever I go back to NYC to visit my relatives, so I do take interest into whatever is going on in the Eastern Division (especially the M).
Nick
I've seen the crowds on the M during the rush hour. It can handle the load with 6 cars. Yeah, it'd be more crowded, but it's doable, if not desirable.
The premature slaughter of the Triplexes certainly ranks up there in the Dumbest Moves in Transit History category.
I don't know, they assigned an additional 28 Slant R40 to the "L" line earlier this year, without redeploying R40M or R42 cars; to me that sounds like more rather than less.
wayne
I think that may be temporary because of R42's being out of sevice for SMS.
OK, that sounds reasonable. How many R42 are going for this service? AND while they're at it, can they do SOMETHING, ANYTHING about the lousy A/C in the NYCT-GOH'd R42's, #4840 thru #4949? It stinks from da woid go.
wayne
R42 #4890 was positively frigid yesterday afternoon ...
So was #4918 back on the 17th (but HE has a new Nose). But there were others - #4854-5, #4848-9, #4870-1 - whose A/C was sorely lacking.
I realized after I posted I was painting with too broad a brush. These cars may or may not need A/C service. It's been my experience that the A/C in this series has been problematic. It's not always the case, as you have pointed out.
wayne
All the R42's are going to get SMS. From my experience in the "east" (I haven't operated an Eastern Division car in 13 months), some CI rebuilt R42's are drafty ice boxes and others have their a/c break down weekly more or less. They run them thru the barn, fix the a/c without finding the root cause of the problem and are back in the barn in a few days broken again. Just to make full service! The same thing is now happening with the Jamaica R32's just like last summer. I dislike those CI R42's immensely. They are rattletraps, and they have that troublesome NY Air Brake System. They won't be scrapped soon enough.
Pardon my ignorabnce, but what does "SMS" mean?
Scheduled Maintenance System
Ahhhh, thanks
I had finished the whole thing except all Sunday 6 times got deleted. What I have now done is made a table of approximate travel times between the following stations on Sundays:
Pelham Bay Park
East 177th Street
Hunts Point Avenue
138th Street
125th Street
68th Street
42nd Street
Astor Place
Bleeker Street
Brooklyn Bridge
I also have supplied the times the trains leave Pelham Bay Park and Brooklyn Bridge. Using this table, you can get the approximate travel times. I will put up the times so you don't have to use the table sometime before I go to sleepaway camp.
Also, the R110B is finished.
Thanks to Trevor Logan for giving me the R110B schedule and permission to use the background pictures and Pelham Bay Dave for telling me that the first 6 run was later than originally planned. Please post any corrections or comments here on the board.
Click here for R142
Click here for the R110B
Hi Folks This morning on my way to work I rode R-33 car # 8846 it had NO A/C what so ever also on my way home I rode an even HOTTER car, Car # 9067. Also PLEASE try to AVOID these 2 R33s car # s 8954 & 8955. Talk about LOUD SQUEAKY BRAKES. I almost went deaf. Whats up with these R-33s? Stef any Ideas?
I'd guess that the MTA isn't gonna do any serious rehabs of cars that are due to be scrapped very shortly.
Well, they apparently did get the derailed Lexington Ave. Redbird cars back into service, which you wouldn't think they would do if the things were going to be scrapped right away.
The Redbird AC units have always been a bit unreliable compared to the larger units on the IND/BMT and the R-62s(I can remember some of the R-33 cars having non-working AC just a year after the overhead units were first put in). Chances are the late Spring heat was too much for them and they haven't had a chance to go to the shop yet. Since it looks like the `Birds will have at least one more summer in them, they'll probably get worked on before the hot weather goes away.
don't complain
open a window pane
(whoa, that rhymed!!)
That all good when your in the open but in the Tunnel its a diffrent story.
Sure at night and above ground that works, but during the rush hours when the 2 is at best standing room only and at worst packed to the gills, that only makes things worse and commuters even more angry. Seriously, summer is the worst time to ride the subway. Every consist on the #2 line that I've ridden seems to have at least 1 car whose A/C is not working properly. That's why people complain . . . even when they do open a window pane.
That's why they shouldn't have removed those hooks that keep the storm doors open! Just about all cars, except the R-33's on the #7 and the R-62's on the #3, have had them removed. But the R-68/A have them even though their storm doors are locked!
the R-68/A have them even though their storm doors are locked!The R-110B has them too, even though the doors are locked (even need a key to get in from the outside!). The reason is those things provide an easy way to prop the auto-locking storm door open in the event of an evacuation. Even if the doors are left unlocked, they are pretty heavy and stiff since they are rarely opened, much less frequently than on the non-67/75' cars.
The R-33s, and all air-conditioned Redbirds, have the same capacity air conditioning system as the R-62 and R-62A cars: 12 tons (144,000 BTU).
David
The capacity may be the same, but the reliability over the years just hasn't seemed to be as good on the retrofits, based on my own personal summer sweat tests. But they're still better than the R-33 WFs, of course :)
>Hi Folks This morning on my way to work I rode R-33 car # 8846 it >had NO A/C what so ever also on my way home I rode an even HOTTER >car, Car # 9067. Also PLEASE try to AVOID these 2 R33s car # s 8954 >& 8955. Talk about LOUD SQUEAKY BRAKES. I almost went deaf. Whats up >with these R-33s? Stef any Ideas?
No AC? Perhaps the cars need to be charged with freon or the mechanisms weren't working. Squealing brakes? Time to replace them!
-Stef
Then again, Tom, I wonder if the T/O is hitting his brakes too hard. You should have a smooth stop....
-Stef
On the westbound 7 train today at 5:30, I black teen snatched the $250 Handspring Visor (a handheld computer using the Palm OS platform) I was playing with out of my hand and walked out the door at 82nd st. I got up and pulled him back with his overalls, but he struggled free. Other passengers started standing up to get him but he ran down the platform. I left the train in persuit, but forgot that my bag with my camera was still on the seat. Some other good passengers held the door open for me and screamed at the fleeing youth. I got my bag and chased the punk down the stairs into the station and finally caught up with him going up the stairs on the eastbound side of the 7. He was running up the stairs when I landed a blow to his lower spine. He fell down on the stairs and I ripped my little computer from his hands.
He got up and just said: "I was just playin'".
I replied by saying that that was the worst excuse I ever heard and "this is why I hate dealing with you f***in' people!".
He said: "You did'nt have to get off the train".
At this point I knew this guy was incompetant and I just yelled some obscenities at him and left.
But I am VERY happy that I got my Visor back. Many other people are not as fortunate as I to have an inexperianced thug attempt to rob me.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
.....did you get your bag & your camera back ??.....
He said he did:
"I got my bag and chased..."
Dan, sorry to hear about your bad turn of events there on the Flushing line.
Good for you you got your stuff back from that piece of turd. I did a similar stunt a few years ago when my first motorcycle was stolen from right in front of my apartment building (this was when I was living near Brooklyn College). Turned out some descent kids sitting on an adjacent stoop saw a bunch of teens break the lock and take off w/my bike. I asked them which way they went. They happenned to point in the direction of the Vanderveer Houses (at that time a notorious housing project). I was SEEING RED and was MAD AS HELL! What did I do? I walked a fast walk into the projects (fear was gone -- I was more pissed than scared). I spied my bike behind a handball court with about a half-dozen punks present. Ya know what I did then? I merely brushed past them grabbed my bike (while mubbling something like "I'm taking my f---bike, and see if anyone's gonna stop me" and walked back to my building with it! I think those miscretants were stunned at my big ballz for doing what I did (and finding where they stowed the bike to boot) leaving them speechless and in a state of inaction. It was only later that night that I realized I could have been in a serious sh--hole if any of those punks were armed. But hey, ya can't cry over spilt milk. Some people do different things in different situations.
Again, congrats! And don't let that one situation deter you from future railfanning.
Doug aka BMTman
hey daniel... you're a gutsy s.o.b. :-)... consider yourself fortunate that you didn't get hurt in the process of getting your stuff back... also it was nice to hear that the other passengers helped protect your bag... if you get me a description of the thief, i'll get word out to the REDBIRD which almost murdered the tourist boy, to keep a door on the ready the next time this guy comes on board...
I think the message is you still have to keep stuff worth something covered up on the subway. The cold blooded killers may be gone, but there is still plenty of cretin kids who cannot resist the temptation to grab and run.
I still have two wallets, one for the subway and one for the car. I never have more than five dollars, my credit card, or anything else of value in the subway wallet. And I don't wear anything anyone else would want to have.
Glad it turned out OK.
I only play with my toys between stations, and hold them tight at the stations. When I surf from the x-bus, I'm pretty OK, because express buses are a lot more controlled.
-Hank
I agree. Keep those precious devices hidden. If unavoidable, always keep an extra eye open because you can't trust anyone.
As to the "I was just playing" excuse, that deserved an even harsher blow than the first one. And succeeding excuses would be even more painful than the previous since he's not apologizing. The "you didn't have to come out of the train" one deserved a football kick in the nuts.
I'd like to give my own congrats also to Daniel aka DaWheelFlange on being a successful vigilante.
Now we're talking my language. These punks don't know how hard we work to earn the bread to buy the things we enjoy. Let's hope he learned his lesson. If not, the next time he should earn a trip to the emergency ward.
Most kids today have no values or sensitivity. They listen to junk music and destroy and steal property. The graffitti and scratchiti they do to trains doesn't even make a point, just gets their names out. They are selfish because alot of their parents aren't home, too busy making money. They are very materialistic and watch the stupidest of TV (Survivor, for example).
Kids have taken the attention of mass media, their junk music is played on all radio stations, and very few know what real music is like. One station, Nassau College, WHPC 90.3 has a soft sounds format
and plays the songs "every other station has forgot about*".
*I'm talking about the Carpenters, Christopher Cross, and Glen Frey kind of music here.
Kids love to hang out at Roosevelt Field mall and cause trouble like pulling fire alarms. The girls shop for their designer clothes and look for biggest, richest "bad boy" they can find. And of course they hate public transportation, they must have their own car.
Somebody wrote "f--- you" in the back of a bus yesterday, the poor bus was 164. Some poor Redbird had a vandalized front window. Even the LIRR aint immune.
The crazy kids come from all races, white, asian, latino, black, and so on. They come from all income backgrounds as well.
What they need to be reminded of is that there are laws, and thus they must be reminded by strict punishment and enforcement.
Parents need to spend more time with their kids.
It's simple, the family has died in America. We must look at what China and the East have done in their countries, and learn some of that here (instead of the other way around*)
*So many asian kids that come to America are whitewashed and alienate their own culture, this is very common in Flushing and on Long Island
Kids that cause trouble are responsible in a big way for the mess in our subways. They litter tracks, scratch windows, graffitti trains and stations, and rob
people. The pattern must stop.
>>>>> Most kids today have no values or sensitivity. They listen to junk music and destroy and steal property. <<<<<<
John;
That's a pretty strong indictment of a whole generation. It looks familiar though. If you add the phrases "rock and roll" and "Elvis Presley" and "race music" it could have been written in the late ‘50s.
>>>>>> We must look at what China and the East have done in their countries, and learn some of that here. <<<<<<<
By this I assume you mean things like China's great cultural revolution when the Red Guards murdered the intellectuals, or the takeover of Cambodia by the Kymer Rouge which led to conditions depicted in the movie "The Killing Fields".
Tom
[Kids have taken the attention of mass media, their junk music is played on all radio stations, and very few know what real
music is like. One station, Nassau College, WHPC 90.3 has a soft sounds format and plays the songs "every other station has forgot about*".
*I'm talking about the Carpenters, Christopher Cross, and Glen Frey kind of music here.]
No offense, but that's pretty much the sort of music I prefer to forget :-)
[Most kids today have no values or sensitivity. They listen to junk music
and destroy and steal property. The graffitti and scratchiti they do to
trains doesn't even make a point, just gets their names out. They are
selfish because alot of their parents aren't home, too busy making
money. They are very materialistic and watch the stupidest of TV
(Survivor, for example).
Kids have taken the attention of mass media, their junk music is played
on all radio stations, and very few know what real music is like. One
station, Nassau College, WHPC 90.3 has a soft sounds format
and plays the songs "every other station has forgot about*".
*I'm talking about the Carpenters, Christopher Cross, and Glen Frey kind
of music here.]
I don't see what music has to do with criminal behavior. The guy who tried to rob DaWheelFlange either had mental problems or has nothing to do with his life.
[Kids love to hang out at Roosevelt Field mall and cause trouble like
pulling fire alarms. The girls shop for their designer clothes and look
for biggest, richest "bad boy" they can find.]
I would highly doubt it was any different before. I have my beliefs on this kind of behavior, that girls like boys who cause trouble etc.
[And of course they hate public transportation, they must have their own car.]
So do adults. Most people hate public transit and would like their own car, even when transit is convenient, cheap or even fast. As for me, I am 15 years old right now, and will soon be able to apply for a learner's permit (I'm from Pennsylvania). While I'd love to know how to drive, I see no practical use for driving between now and the time I graduate high school. In fact, the best thing my own car would do for me at this point is impress girls. I say this because transit where I am is very good, and it is faster to take the subway to school than to drive there. Also, I wouldn't need a car to carry around heavy stuff.
My congratulations to DaWheelFlange for getting his stuff back.
Where is SHAFT when you really need him :() ?
<>
Judging by an earlier thread, he's caught in a closing door and being dragged into a subway tunnel by his foot. :)
How can you make a distinction between Junk music and real music. I might think that the music played on 90.3 is junk music, and that the music played today is real music. I'm sorry, but one can't define "junk music" and "real music". What you said in your post was completely idiotic. Many adults, as well as kids, watch Survivor, why do you think that the individuals first booted off of the show have been invited on many daytime and latenight talkshows such as the view etc... which kids definately do not watch? Maybe because adults actually watch, and enjoy the program as well. I don't understand why you think that kids hate public transportation. I, myself as a kid, love public transportation, that's why I have a whole site dedicated to it. I could also name other kids, who frequent the SubTalk and BusTalk board who love public transportation. Most kids rely on public transportation to get them around. Many can't afford cars, or taxis like most adults can. Before you post a message like this again, maybe you should think about it and the truthfullness it has to it.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
[Many adults, as well as kids, watch Survivor, why do you think that the individuals first booted off of the show have been invited on many daytime and latenight talkshows such as the view etc..]
Any interest that I might have had in watching Survivor was kiboshed when I read that the participants, despite all of the show's back-to-nature schtick, have access to an essentially unlimited supply of condoms.
I learned in school that, in a true survival situation, the first thing to "go" is a person's sexual libido. WHAT A BUNCH OF MEDIA PHONIES.
I've always wondered how they power their cameras. And they have an airplane coming weekly to collect the one booted?
What country does this island belong to? Seebiesia?
You made a response to the wrong message, but it's right anyway.
I agree about the music thing, I'm a fan of modern "junk" music, except for rap which I absolutely LOATHE. It's not the lyrics that bother me, it's like a degenerate poem played to a repetitive automatic beat with no flavor whatsoever.
And it's not that Long Island kids hate mass transit, it's just that Long Island mass transit is horrible and is only to be despised. Anybody who has a car that's not in the shop would not ride Long Island Bus in their right mind.
That's another problem in the suburbs, it's a jail to people under 16. Which is why they have to have cars, it's freedom.
Of course, in Singapore, nobody has freedom so who cares about it? Freedom is overrated! That Franklin guy I quoted is a boob.
It seems as if you have gotten confused about who posted what here. Whats in brackets was quoted from a previous post. As for the fact that some kids and adults do not like public transportation, despite the fact that I live in Philadelphia, most people try to use public transportation as little as possible, even the ones who live close to good transit. The majority of people who I have met in person who like to use transit I have met through various transportation advocacy organizations, or I have met at SEPTA hearings (and few of them are my age).
I knew that you weren't the one who posted that message, because of the brackets.
Clark Palicka
Talk about general and stereotypes.In from 1969 to 1977 what kind of music were the graffiti artist doing murals on whole cars listening to.
Let me think! Glenn Fry,Carpenters,Led Zep.Wasn't the mustagne 5.0 more of a social status to impress than anything else.
Fades and styles change but the reasons for beeing teenagers will always remain the same. We've all been there!
I second and third the notion of keeping valuables out of sight on the subway. You don't want to draw attention to yourself.
Now, OTOH, steel-toed shoes can come in handy in such a situation...
I always note that NO ONE works on their laptops riding the subways here, they're ALWAYS in the case, on the floor, clenched between legs. This would be the reason why.
Reminds me of the time a friend of mine looked out the window and saw a gang of kids rolling his car off. He went running down screaming "what the (#&$)(* are you doing with my (*#($*ing car"! Unfortunately he wasn't as lucky as you were--they creamed him and took his car anyway.
The cops told him that if he ever found the kids they would beat them up for him . . .
Kids have always been a nuisence. That's why we need to cane 'em like in Singapore. If you visit Singapore, you'll see the laws work very well. Safer and cleaner than anything you'll find in America.
"Kids have always been a nuisence."
Hey! All of those Blacks, and Hispanics and Asians are a nuisance too.
Ageism is no better or worse than other types of discrimination. Of course, since there is no free speech in your law abiding Utopia, people can be caned for it too.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin.
Bully for you, too, Doug. You showed real guts. Maybe I had you all wrong. But it is a shame when we have to deal with such human garbage. I wonder what values their parents gave them. Do you even think they had resonsible adults to look up to? Probably not.
I'm sure their father was never there, and their mother was hardly ever there, giving birth to a different child with a different father every couple of years*
*Not to be construed as a comment against well adjusted, mixed families. To be used as a comment against serial birthing and absentee fatherism (not that the children can't grow up to be responsible members of society while having a single parent)
**Disclaimer included to prevent misunderstandings and to prevent persons from being slighted wrongly.
[I'm sure their father was never there, and their mother was hardly ever there, giving birth to a different child with a different
father every couple of years*
*Not to be construed as a comment against well adjusted, mixed families. To be used as a comment against serial birthing and absentee fatherism]
Serial birthing? I never heard that before, but it's a pretty cool expression.
That was an adrenaline rush, no doubt.
I'm am very happy that you won this case, most people wouldn't have had the tolerance to do what you did, me personally, I would beat him till he was part of the platform.
BUT........In the same tounge you messed up
"this is why I hate dealing with you f***in' people!"
I really hope you said that out of anger, because I'm black (african american) and I took some offense to that statement, not to turn this into a racial thing. But be cautious of what you state on this board, we have all races posting here! Bigons!
Have a safe and blessed evening!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
I think the 'You people...' remark was more an angry reaction than anything else. And the 'people' he's talking about are criminals.
-Hank
My impression of the message was also that "you people" referred to "criminals" in general, but after reading Trevor's message THEN I realized that it could have also been a racial thing. I wouldn't have thought of the racial thing if it was never mentioned, since criminals can be any race of course.
[My impression of the message was also that "you people" referred to "criminals" in general, but after reading Trevor's message THEN I realized that it could have also been a racial thing. I wouldn't have thought of the racial thing if it was never mentioned, since criminals can be any race of course.]
I'd say it's a term to be avoided for that reason. It does have a racial connotation in certain contexts, and can cause bad feeling even if it's used without racist intent.
''Thats why I don't like dealing with you #*&#$$# people!'' could have been takin in two differnent ways,but I choose to accept that he ment thief,rather than the more racial comment stemmed from anger. Once again , im glad you are safe.
But how do you know that the miscreant was black? The fact that you assumed automatically that the scum was black says something completely different, and not about the person who made the initial comment.
First, let me pull my foot out of my mouth.
I didn't notice the adjective before teen in the first sentence, so I was taking it the wrong way. I fully apologize, and realize how it can be misconstrued.
Once again, I apologize. I don't like any kind of stereotypical comment, from any side, to any side in any way.
Trevor: I told him the same thing, and I think he got the message. We all have to be concerned for the feelings of others, even though we slip up sometimes.
I'm really sorry If I offended you or anyone else by saying thst. I was only referring to miscreants like that kid who took my Visor and I did say it out of anger. I have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against african-americans or people of any other racial background. My dad's second wife is african-american which makes my half brother mixed, but I still love him. Again, I apoligize to anyone who took offense to what I said.
-Daniel
I fully understand, I just wanted to let you know how I felt, but there is no love lost, I'm still cool with you!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
www.transitalk.com
You are lucky. I once had my bike stolen from the Metro here and I didn't get it back. Its too bad people have to act that way and there are some good straphangers (like those who gave you your bag).
Daniel;
>>>> I knew this guy was incompetant and I just yelled some obscenities at him and left. <<<<
I'm glad you got your yuppie notebook back, but you certainly did not discourage the thief from trying the same thing on another passenger. If you were able to physically overpower him, why didn't you hold him for the police and help the rest of society?
>>>> "this is why I hate dealing with you f***in' people!". <<<<<<
Do you regularly deal with thieves and robbers? If not who are "you f***in' people" you hate dealing with?
Tom
[Do you regularly deal with thieves and robbers? If not who are "you f***in' people" you hate dealing with?]
No, I don't normally deal with theives, but I have dealt with several before. And I never liked it. Robbers usually have a certain personality that I hate and I hate confronting them.
There was a time when I was 13 and I was listening to my radio (with headphones) while walking through the Smith projects near my home. A Puerto Rican teen came up and asked for my radio. I said no, and he called in his posse. I was surrounded and one of the guys spit on me so I gave up my radio. I ran to a cop but all he did was write something in his book and left.
Agfain, I would like to poligize to anyone who took my comment racially. I surely did no mean it that way.
-Daniel
Isn't there something a little disturbing about beeing politically correct for beeing a victim. Having to appologies for insulting minorities or any cultural individual in this society is going way to far. Dan was the victim here again. He physically had to fight off an attack, then appologies for things said in the heat of battle.
Violence, regardless of race religion color age or sex has no eyes.In my mind you are what need more in this society. A man who can fight to protect your own human rights and someone who has enough moral standards to appologies if you've offended someone.
You the man Dan!!!
GOD BLESS YOU MR.''I HATE DEALING WITH YOU PEOPLE''!!!!!!!!
..where be the platform transit officers
when you need them??
Glad to hear you got your property back. And it's also good to hear that other passengers tried to help. Maybe subway criminals will start to think twice* if they know that they'll be facing groups of angry riders.
* = not that criminals can do much thinking, seeing as how the average I.Q. score of criminals is about 85.
Peter;
Where did you get the figure of 85 for average criminal IQ? In my experience the criminals I have met were of much higher IQ, and seem to be at least as intelligent as the general population.
Tom
Not for nothing, but I tend to agree here. I recall some documentary that was done on the subject of criminal behavior and thought that the average criminal was actually of average I.Q.
Doug aka BMTman
[Where did you get the figure of 85 for average criminal IQ? In my experience the criminals I have met were of much higher IQ, and seem to be at least as intelligent as the general population.]
I can't recall specifically, but I did read that fact in a couple of books or articles some years ago. I also worked as a criminal court clerk in Connecticut for two years (1991-1993), and believe me that absolutely convinced me of the stupidity of most criminals. It sometimes seemed as if the average one hauled into the courtroom where I worked could scarcely use the toilet without assistance.
[It sometimes seemed as if the average one hauled into the courtroom where I worked could scarcely use the toilet without assistance.]
Did you hear about the thieves that stole all the toilets out of a police stationhouse. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on!
GOOD ONE, SARGE
>>>>> Did you hear about the thieves that stole all the toilets out of a police stationhouse. Detectives are feverishly working on the case but so far have nothing to go on! <<<<<<<
And of course this is on theme because the affected station was on the Flushing Line.
LOL. Let's hope they get to the bottom of this.:-)
85 is after a long long long night of sleep too.
Good job!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you call the cops?
Glad you got it all back Dan. I fully applaud you---except for one thing, if I may say so. When you said, I hate dealing with you %$#@*& people, to me that could be construed as a stereotype racist remark. He doesn't represent the vast majority of blacks moving up the ladder and working hard to get ahead. He is a disgrace to his race and the human race. To make him part of a greater whole only praises the little punk rather than excoriating him. But, again, congratulations on your spunk and determination. You're an all right guy.
.....excuse me but i was asking the first poster if he got all of his property back like his camera bag etc.....
i hope he got everything back ......!!!!!!!!
All of the comments have been said, so there's not much to add.
I hope that there are more incidents of people carrying illegal weapons being wronged (ala Bernhard Goetz). I only feel sorry for them having to go through all the legal trouble just to take out the trash and at the same time exercise their consitutional rights.
That reminded me of something funny. Whenever Humor columnist Dave Barry has referes to Bernhard Goetz he calls him something like "New York City Police Commisioner Bernhard Goetz".
Well good job defending yourself, and getting your stuff back!!
I don't think I could do that, since I'm on the small side and probably would not be able to catch him.
I tell you with all the recent happenings on the subway and in the city I can't help but think twice about going.
Wherever wild kids hang out, like in Flushing, or around Herald Square, I try to avoid. Also the 74th and Broadway station where the 7 and Queens Blvd IND lines meet, attracts alot of troublesome kids.
The only places they seem to stay away from are Chinatown, lower Manhattan (WTC area), and Grand Central and vicinity.
Perhaps on my next visit I'll take the LIRR or express bus. Lately I don't feel safe at all on the subway and it's hot and dirty. I'd rather be a little more comfortable and not get so exhasusted from the heat of the subways (I'm very susceptible to heat exhaustion).
It's good that you are OK
Peace,
ANDEE
06/23/2000
[He said: "You did'nt have to get off the train".]
That's a very interesting statement. It sounds like as a vicitm of a robbery you are supposed let the criminal get away with it. Fighting back to retrieve your property and telling the scum seems taboo to this pineapple!
You're lucky that an ACLU lawyer wasn't a witness. I could just see an outstreched arm with a business card and an offer to represent the criminal if he wanted to sue you for harassment!
Bill "Newkirk"
The city is going down the toilet!
Two young black kids approach from both sides of me at 71/continental. One asks my name, I day none of your business. They crowd me, and start cursing at me. I simply push past them and start walking toward the center of the platform. I notice they are following me, and doing a bad job of hiding behind the pillars every time I looked back. Then, my attention is distracted by the R32 G arriving with 3730 as the head motor. One of them smacks me in the back of the head hard, while the other punches me in the back hard. Well I chase them up the mezzanine, to the Manhattan bound side and onto an F train. I had no idea what I was going to do to them when I caught up, but I figured it out when they tried (and succeeded) in opening the storm door. As you might guess, the second one didn't open and they were stuck in between cars. I locked the door they went in through, and left at the next stop. I assume at CI the C/R or T/O noticed them and let them out, but I really don't care.
Once while transferring from the 7 train to the Queens IND I was "threatened" by several youths. I was on the escalator going down and they were a few steps above me. I was the only short guy with a blue shirt around, and they kept shouting "you see him, I want to kick the s*** out of that guy". Then the other guy said "where?". Over there, pointing down to me. When I got off it appeared the two were following me down into the Queens IND platforms. I was heading for Queens bound train platform and then decided to go to Manhattan bound instead. The station was crowded and they could not find me through the crowd. I immediately got on an F and saw the two troublemakers on the Queens bound platform looking around.
That was scary though. This was around 3pm when the kids were getting out. After that incident I never ride subways between 2 and 3 when they get out of school. Especially in Queens.
I'm sure that makes a lot of sense. Especially since schools get out at three.
How much would you like to bet that they weren't going to school that day? Or maybe even that week?
Yeah, Queens has really gone down the toilet!
You could've have the time to grab the attention of people since it's crowded, and perhaps a mop stick as a weapon, JIC. These "kids" should get a life!!!!!
I had no idea what I was going to do to them when I caught up, but I figured it out when they tried (and succeeded) in opening the storm door. As you might guess, the second one didn't open and they were stuck in between cars. I locked the door they went in through, and left at the next stop.
Are you talking about the R46 F's storm door?? How can they open that? Don't tell me they stole the key from some chinese vendor dude!
It's amazing that 2 thugs were scared of one brave individual. This goes to show how much courage they really have inside (and the low IQ). There was another post here mentioning how one thug had to go get his gang in order to steal an item. But by turning your back to them you're making yourself vulnerable to cheap shots. Just keep an eye on suspicious individual(s) and challenge them to do something without saying anything (usually they won't, at least from my experience).
Sometimes the doors are left unlocked accidentally by car cleaners at the terminal, or anyone with a key walking through the train (it seems everyone has the key to the door who works for the MTA, plus cops). This was one of those times.
[It's amazing that 2 thugs were scared of one brave individual. This goes to show how much courage they really have inside (and the low IQ). There was another post here mentioning how one thug had to go get his gang in order to steal an item. But by turning your back to them you're making yourself vulnerable to cheap shots. Just keep an eye on suspicious individual(s) and challenge them to do something without saying anything (usually they won't, at least from my experience).]
Most criminals, especially ones from the ghetto, *are* sniveling cowards. Maybe it's their subprimate I.Q. scores, maybe just general immaturity, but once they're away from the "protection" of their gangs, any bravery goes right out the window. The most hardend gangbanger, once he's in custody, alternates between sobbing for Mommy* and betraying the other members.
* = he probably would sob for Daddy too, if he had any idea who Daddy was.
Wow! I saw 3730-1 outside the C.I. shops this past week awaiting new floors. They must've done the job in record time.
This story is from a while back, before the cars went out.
henry... if you read some of my posts, you know that i often engage in fantasy
truthfully,i live in a fantasy world
your story is hard to believe... i know you are fond of 3730... to have it come in as head motor as you were encountering the two guys seems hard to believe... have you been reading jersey mike's accounts of his dreams?
jersey mike has almost as many screws loose as i do
i guess what really worried me was this morning when
i read another mike's post stating that he saw 3730 earlier in the week getting a new floor...
being attacked in the subway is some scary nasty stuff, and i hope you were kidding, since i would rather not see it happen to anyone
if it did happen, i am sorry it happened and apologize for my questions....
It did in fact happen, and the head motor was either 3730 or 3370 or 3770, I could only see it for a brief half-second before the attack. And it was not a recent event.
again, i am sorry it happened to you
and i apologize for questioning you
i guess i ought to stop my goofing around here, as i have begun to think everyone else is goofing around also...
i kid around because i have nothing really to say
EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THAT'S THE TRUTH
who wrote that???
Yep, after school it can really get rough in the subways. Anyway, I though school ended on the 14th. Guss Im wrong.
OHOH, what do you think happened to the kids when the train made the hairpin turn to the CI terminal? :() You should see how those cars are alined when the train turns.
If its anything like the turn north of City Hall (N R), ouch! A passenger must have notified the C/R before then, or they found the switch. I figured they would look around and eventually see the 'Push switch down to unlock door' sticker, or someone would point it out to them.
If school is out, where do you think they go?
I had some extra time today so I took the M to Fresh Pond Rd. and explored the Fresh Pond NY&A yard. There was no gate, and once the NY&A crew saw me with my camera, they knew I was a railfan and let me roam around. I saw three MP15ACs, numerous boxcars, tank cars, luber racks and hoppers. It is a pretty small yard, but big enough to do classification. Very interesting.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Which train crew let you in? You are pretty lucky, If I seen you trespass on the property, I would personally throw you off and then fetch security after you. Most people in the company don't take kindly to tresspassers, including myself! Do yourself a favor, get permission from the management to roam the property, then everybody will let you be.
Too bad you weren't around on Saturday. There was a tour of the Bay Ridge Line via tow GP-units and a former LIRR coach. You would've been in railfan heaven for that!
Doug aka BMTman
I've heard (and witnessed) NY&A is 'railfan-freindly'; however, to just walk into the yard is asking for trouble. You should ask at the yard office before entering the property.
-Hank
[You should ask
at the yard office before entering the property.]
Well, that is kinda hard since the offices are all the way in the interior of the yard. And to answer Slayer's question, all I can say is guy driving a black Jeep Cherokee said I could roam around the yard and take pictures, but just stay clear of the tracks.
I walked up all the way to the M train bridge and back.
-Daniel
And I went there around 2:30 yesterday. Activity was very low and two of the three MP15ACs were actually off.
-Daniel
NY&A isn't very heavy-handed with security (which might be good for us railfans), but they still have to be careful regarding people strolling onto their property.
As it is, they get alot of flack already from local area politicians regarding their ROW and ops, so they're trying to keep a low-profile.
Doug aka BMTman
Do yourself a favor, my friend. Don't wonder onto private property. You can get arrested for trespassing, or worse, find yourself in the middle of a bad situation if you're wondering on or about the tracks. I have a freight yard near me in the Bronx that's easy to walk into, but I don't wander into it because no one would welcome me with open arms. But if you have connections with the right people, I'm sure something can be worked out. It's great to be a railfan, but play it safe.
-Stef
A guy in a black jeep let you in? I know who you are talking about and let me tell ya HE is not from management, or a crew member. You got lucky but don't say I did not warn you. You might just cross me or any other of my colleagues who will throw you out. NY&A is railfan friendly when the railfan is not tresspassing. When I work on the road and someone approaches me when I'm getting coffee or my lunch I'll be helpful to them and talk to them.
I think that's a reasonable attitude. I was happy to see that the 150 or so folks on the trip down the Bayridge line June 17th pritty much did what they were told and didn't wonder around to get NY & Atl upset with them.
Heck if there's going to be another trip it will be because mngt. is going to want to do it, not because they have to ! Despite the heat I was very pleased the trip and want to thank the crew again for their part in it.
Mr t__:^)
Actor Samuel L. Jackson (of the current "Shaft" hit) was on The Howard Stern Show this morning. Apparently, somewhere in his bio was a mention of his having been trapped in a subway car door here in New York some years ago (he was already famous, I believe). Stern asked him what happenned. Jackson said he was dragged, but only briefly. I'm not sure if he received any injuries from the incident, but I thought I'd post this here, in light of the recent headlines.
If anyone has more details on the Jackson incident, please feel free to post it here.
Doug aka BMTman
I am a devout Stern listener. He got dragged into the tunnel (his leg was stuck in between the doors). He had to have complete reconstructive surgery on his leg and he won a settlement for $400,000 from the city.
-Harry
Thanks, Harry. Do you know exactly around the time that this happenned?
When I listen to Stern in the morning -- unfortunately -- I keep one ear on the radio and the other on the office noise. Sometimes I miss the details as is the case here...
Doug aka BMTman
This is quoting directly from http://www.marksfriggin.com/news.htm
It has daily updates on what happens on the show.
"Howard remembered a story about Sam getting his leg stuck in a New York subway once. Sam said it happened about 10 years ago and his ankle got stuck in the doors as he was getting off the subway. He got dragged down the platform and into a tunnel before the train was stopped. He had to have his knee totally reconstructed and only got a $400,000 settlement from the city. He said the jury didn't feel that sorry for him because his popularity was growing in the movie industry. Sam said that his lawyer found out that 22 people had been dragged by subways that year and it's a common occurrence."
If you miss the show, the site is really, really good at keeping you up to date. I use it all the time during the school year.
-Harry
in 1988 jazz legend Woody Shaw was involved in a fall in front of a subway train, causing the loss of an arm, and eventually leading to his death months later.
I didn't hear about this incident. What line did Shaw's accident occur on?
Doug aka BMTman
I dunno, It was in my History of Jazz book; It didn't go into details
Now the Mayor is saying security will have to be provided for Rocker on his #7 ride. Obviously, Rudy doesn't ride the trains too often. The more of a big deal you make over Rocker's ride, the more likely you are to attract troublemakers. But if Rocker just shuts up and rides in street clothes without saying when or where, you folks all know what will happen. Nothing.
Betcha a used TARS token Rocker won't be anywhere around the subway on this trip. With all the pre-game publicity that's everywhere (even in the Baltimore paper) the Braves would be nuts to let him appear anywhere except the ballpark.
Also betcha the same amount that if anything Rocker other than getting blown out on 9 pitches happens he'll be on the bus for the minors permanently.
Thank the powers that be that Mr. Rocker isn't in the American League.
Those of us with an AL team at least only have to put up with him during the d***ed Interleague play. The NL Fans (Mets) have to put up with him and his antics several times a season.
Do you think it's possible that we pay too much attention to sports figures and their opinions?
Top management of major corporations make less than many of these dudes. They, like the sports figures, are hired because of their presumed talents in helping the old bottom line, but they also understand that they are expected to do things which help the company's image (charitable causes, and such) and avoid things that bring it disgrace (behave like Big Bill, for example). Fail to do this, and they're toast.
Marx (the one without the cigar) said that religion was the opiate of the masses. He was wrong. In the U.S. at least, it's sports. Why do we honor an a** like Rocker by even publishing his mental sickness. The reporter from Sports Illustrated could have said, "John, this is crap. Why do you think our readers want to see this." Instead, he must have thought it was hot copy.
If Rocker wants to do something nice for people in NYC, let him stay off the subways, and make more room for the humans.
The number of posts about this subject on subtalk is the sole reason why they will constantly publish the John Rocker stories of the world.
We love trash!!There are more important things in life than John Rocker,but it sure is fun putting him down!! Bring him on.
If you're not convinced Rocker is off his rocker ( and pun intented), nothing is going to convince you. He thinks he did nothing wrong and that the silent majority thinks the way he does. We don't! But to give this imbecile any more slack and publicity by printing his verbal meanderings only plays into his hand. It wouldn't surprise me if the Braves finally trade this jerk. It's obvious he's learned nothing from his trevails, which, by the way, he brought on himself. All we should be concerned about is the Mets getting it together and proving that they finally can take it to the Braves. If Rocker does ride the #7, we'd all do ourselves a big favor by treating him as a non-person; act like he's not even there.
It would be nice to ignore him, but the Post and News will have people stationed near the Grand Central turnstiles the day he's supposed to ride, and the TV cameras will be there too. It will be the subway version of OJ's ride in the Ford Bronco, impossible to ignore, because there will be no way to avoid it in the media. The only positive thing is, there will probably be so many reporters and cameramen in the car, there won't be any room for the general public to get near him.
We can only hope it's a 95-degree day and they don't know the difference in subway cars and get on an R-33 WF single. It would teach them all a lesson :)
He probably will have to get on a specific train already filled with undercover security. The yard master should arrange a train of 7 R-33 Singles, with the first and last 2 cars R-36s (wouldn't want the TO to suffer). Misalign 2 fans in every car so a constant, steady beat of metal barely scraping metal will be heard by all.
.........I would cram him up into the ""railfan window""......also I would require him to ride his own
MARTA RAIL IN ATLANTA GEORGIA ......!!!!
The best thing to do to Rocker is not to act like animals and throw batteries on him. When he comes to pitch, all the fans should stand up and turn away.
Everyone who has a Nielsen Audimeter in their home should change the channel.
[Do you think it's possible that we pay too much attention to sports figures and their opinions?
Marx (the one without the cigar) said that religion was the opiate of the masses. He was wrong. In the U.S. at least, it's sports. Why do we honor an a** like Rocker by even publishing his mental sickness. The reporter from Sports Illustrated could have said, "John, this is crap. Why do you think our readers want to see this." Instead, he must have thought it was hot copy.]
It's not just athletes, it's celebrities in general. Millions upon millions of people wait breathlessly for news concerning Oprah's latest diet or Tommy Lee's newest tattoo. I'll bet far more people know that Celine Dion has a bun in the oven than know that the Federal Reserve is having another interest-rate meeting next week.
(It's not just athletes, it's celebrities in general.)
I'm not a national enquirer reader myself, but I've come to take a more liberal view of this phenomenon. People are interested in other people's lives, as a mirror of their own. Celebrities and athletes get quoted and analyzed because they are more available and, as public figures, entitled to less privacy. You can't tell all about the private lives and thoughts of ordninary people.
Unless they agree. Look at the whole Survivor thing, and Big Brother. Onto the next step, ordinary people.
"If Rocker wants to do something nice for people in NYC, let him stay off the subways, and make more room for the humans."
And Pigs.
I've heard a report from the RPA that heypaul was caught trying to fondle and grope a number of BMT standard and R-9 brake handles. A reliable source told me that he was led away by TA security babbling incoherently about "railfan windows," "the key to a food locker," and "the magnificance of the Pennsy GG-1's"...
more malicious rumors from some envious subtalkers.. first there were rumors that i steamed over the ship's towline... now rumors that i fondled brake handles... i may have lusted in my heart after these items, but you've examined the videotape... you know that i didn't touch anything... any further attempts to besmirch my already begrimed reputation will referred to my lawyer, mr. sid fields...
That's your story and you're sticking to it, huh? Hmm...bring out the bright lights and the rubber hoses!
don't threaten me with rubber hoses... i've been in and out of mental hospitals dozens of times and the rubber hose treatment hasn't broken my spirit one bit... of course i might confess to anything if i was forced to stay in a room full of railfans discussing the r-142's.....
The short term answer is probably 'yes', perhaps the next couple of orders after the R143.
The TSQ-GCT shuttle runs on either 3 or 4 cars, and the 3 runs on 9 cars, while the 7 runs on 11 cars.
The least common denominator seems to be singles, or if it is even possible, mix 2-car, 3-car and 4-car sets. But I'd lean for singles since especially when accidents such as the Hunts Pt Ave one (remember #1909?) will render the remaining three or four cars useless if they are linked from single car status.
As far as the next 60' cars after R143s, they should be singles, perhaps trying to accomodate the short-sighted building of the Franklin Shuttle platforms to 170'. Had it been 180', then running 3-car sets of 60' cars is a possible escape hatch. But I am pretty much opposed (then and now) into linking perfectly good single cars into 4-car sets. The DeKalb accident further strengthens my opposition to further linking, as it renders the other cars SOL/inoperable. (Remember 5283, 5284 + 5285? They are the OOS cars rendered from the accident and resultant scrapping of #5282 in 1997. IMO, a waste of three perfectly functional cars!)
A secondary reason is variability and variety of what car numbers will appear in a consist. Now I only have the #3 and the TSQ-GCT shuttle to play the lottery of what cars are in that consist...Before, it used to be the #1/9, #3, #6 and the TSQ-GCT shuttle when the "unmolested" R62As were running in their original single car form where this variability existed.
I'd certainly wish they learn from their mistakes and look for long term effects of "semi-permanently" linking cars.
Enough of my ranting,
Nick
Actually, the TA has saved a lot of money by linking cars. By linking the R68/R68A class, they have removed one compressor out of every 4 cars. On the R68As, they have removed the entire operating position from the ends no longer in use. That's a bunch of spare parts they won't have to order for. For the R62/R62A class they have removed 2 compressors from every 5-car set.
06/23/2000
[. For the R62/R62A class they have removed 2 compressors from every 5-car set.]
What happened to all these now surplus compressors ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Spare parts.
Or actually, they could have been junked.
Since they were probably due for new ones thanks to SMS, they just didn't have to buy as many new ones.
Where does the TA figure it saves any money by linking cars and removing parts? When an order is let, parts are generally factored into the order. When an order is for "X" amount of single cars, the price is let accordingly. You get what you pay for.
When the TA begins removing parts, like controllers, compressors, gutting cabs, that is MORE money wasted on a car order that could have been built that way to begin with!
And of course everyone here knows about the practicality of taking 4 or 5 car units out of service to repair only one.
Joe C
Those extra parts become spares, no need to buy new spares.
Or once again, the parts need to be replaced anyway.
Never in a million years will they need all those "spares". The cars will be gone before they get to that. For instance, when the heck will the TA need additional control handles, especially when they are
de-cabbing units? When they order cars, they never say to the builder
"we'll supply the control handles, compressors" etc. Just a waste of money, all the way around. And the press should know!
Joe C.
I believe they were junked.
very short sighted.
So what else is new?
Actually, the TA has saved a lot of money by linking cars. By linking the R68/R68A class, they have removed one compressor out of every 4 cars. On the R68As, they have removed the entire operating position from the ends no longer in use. That's a bunch of spare parts they won't have to order for. For the R62/R62A class they have removed 2 compressors from every 5-car set.
Have you factored in the decreased car availability into your cost-benefit analysis?
The present availability rate is still only 85% despite a fourfold improvement in MDBF. Compensating for breakdowns related to the couplers, the availability should be at least 90%, if the cars were still single. That extra 5% translates to 285 more cars or $570 million at $2 million per car.
I doubt we'll ever see singles on the IND/BMT again, unless some future city and state administration lets maintenance slip back to the levels of the 1970s and early 80s. On the IRT, the only singles that may remain are some R-62s if they shift over to the Flushing Line, so they can be equipped with dual trip cocks for the Coney Island moves, as opposed to having nothing but five- or six-car link-ups for the No. 7 train.
Might some single still remain for use on the Times Square-Grand Central shuttle ??
They probably will, along with the Franklyn S and the SIR. The SIR will never link, they have to use 2 cars on weekends and 5 cars on some trains during the rush. Then again, the 42st S might link if some idiot decides to make 2 3 car sets and 1 4 car set specifically for it. The Franklyn S cars, under the same order, might be linked into pairs. Wait a minute! Why didn't they link the R68(a)s into pairs?! More flexible equipment managing possible, and still some of those 'savings' they say they're getting. BTW, this could also have been done with R44/46 A-B pairings (like 6206-7).
"They probably will, along with the Franklyn S and the SIR."
Ever see a hundred dollar bill? Ever see the name under the picture?
I should have turned my head and looked at my map. After 10:30, I'm usually too tired to spell right or bother with color tags.
A-B pairings could be done on the R44/46, but they'd still have to be ran in 4-car sets, unless you want to have a blind end facing out (not very safe). R68/68As should have gone into pairs. They look like they're in pairs with the narrow cabs facing each other (like 2501-02, 5013-14, 2825-26).
Um, you'd still have odd cars out for the R68s, of which there are exactly 425.
OTOH, I wish they only linked the R68As into pairs and left the R68s alone.
Nick
Nick C:
I think linking the cars together in sets is a good idea but, they should always have a few spare single cars in case one is damaged beyond repair by accident. As for the car that was damaged in the Dekalb Av. derailment it can be repaired if the damage isn't too great.
BMTJeff
As for keeping singles, I'd agree with you, which I stated somewhere on my rambling post.
Remember Union Sq.? Two cars (1437 and 1440) wrecked, three cars pretty much left for the scrapper also (1435, 1436, 1439), unless you can somehow use parts from an R62 to fix R62A #1909, or convert an R62 to an R62A.
The result? Five cars wasted! I'd raise a stink on losing all five cars in such a way.
There will be trouble if the R-143s are "fixed" into 4-car sets. There needs to be flexibility if they are to run anywhere other than the Eastern Division (with the notable exception of the C line).
I'd forsee a future order where single cars will be involved somewhere along the line within the next 15 to 20 years.
So don't expect to see the end of single cars on either Division yet. Especially with a car "shortage," and the need for cars to prepare for 63rd St in the next year or so. So, how many cars have been lost in the past decade? Isn't that figure somewhere near 30 cars lost?
They really blew it with the early retirement of the R30's. Let them have the A/C and get some more years out of them. As for the R10's, perhaps some of those should have been mothballed past 1989. They would have turned 50 this past year. Would it even have been possible to put A/C on the R10's, or were they simply too old?
Nick
06/25/2000
[Remember Union Sq.? Two cars (1437 and 1440) wrecked, three cars pretty much left for the scrapper also (1435, 1436, 1439), unless you can somehow use parts from an R62 to fix R62A #1909, or convert an R62 to an R62A.]
As far as 1435,36 & 39 are concerned, if they can't find 2 more units they can always run them on the (S) Grand Central shuttle. Isn't there one track that uses 3 cars?
Bill "Newkirk"
2 tracks use 3 cars, 1 and 4. Having 3 Kawasakis assigned to Livonia amid a sea of Bombardiers would a pain to repair, I believe the mechanics and parts required are different for the two seemingly identical cars types.
Nick C:
I agree that the T/A should use car Nos. 1435,1436 and 1439 since they could probably use them on the IRT 42 St. shuttle. they should try to make them like the R-62As so that they would be mechanically identical to the rest of the trains that are used on the 42nd St. shuttle
BMTJeff
I think linking the cars together in sets is a good idea...
Linking the car together is a major contributing factor to the car shortage problem.
they should always have a few spare single cars in case one is damaged beyond repair by accident.
cannibalizing for spare parts is not the most cost effective remedy.
At least for today all northbound N/R trains at Whitehall are using the center track usually reserved for layups.
The conductor on the R train was practically giving a tour. At each stop was announced a full compliment of tourist attractions and historical information. For example (paraphrasing here) Rector Street, just a short walk to wall street, built by the dutch and torn down by the English in 1699. It was very cool and at least I appreciated it (we all know how some new yorker's can be)
There used to be a Conductor on the #1 who recited a history of each station along the line. He was one of many who did so in the system, can you say "labor of love".
At trolley museums it's part of our official training ... Ding Ding, next stop Short Beach, this was the end of the first section of the 10 mile line finished July 31, 1900. On August 25th the line was extended to ....
Mr t__:^)
When the automated announcements come in with the arrival of the R-142s, it will be the beginning of the end of the "personalized" conductor announcments, just as the arrival of the R-44s marked the beginning of the end of the railfan windows.
Definitely not! Look at the LIRR C-3s (and HBLR cars), more often than not, the conductor makes the announcements manually and leave the automated station announcement off. On NJTransit, unless the train is all Comet IV, the conductor announces the stops. Its annoying when you want to hear the automated announcements any the train is all Comet IV, except with a Comet III cab (Comet IV cab has the control panel and GPS, without that, no computerized announcements). You see out the window, a train of all Comet IIIs and a Comet IV cab (closed of course).
Guys like that are hard to come by these days. They rule.
I did enjoy the conductor on the F, on the night of the derailment, explaining to everyone that there were no trains on fourth avenue, and they could get a free transfer to the bus, and then just walk from there. Everyone laughed heartily. He ended his announcement with "good luck out there people!" Nice to hear a little bit of personality to relieve a stressful night.
I for one find these "Gabby Gus" type conductors very annoying. Just give me the information about the stop and spare me the extraneous B.S.. Most people on the train know this extra info already as they are residents. Some of these conductors do not know when to shut-up, it's as if they were vaccinated with a phonograph needle. If they want to be DJs they should have gone into radio. Let me read my paper in peace.
Peace,
ANDEE
Its not too easy to make it into radio these days.
Yes, that is true
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually the dude on the #1 train a decade ago was informative, but he didn't babble on and on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I had a very informative motorman on the St. Charles line in New Orleans in 1994. He had information on just about every house along that throughfare, and kept emphasizing these were single-family homes. He also pointed out where the old Sugar Bowl, aka Tulane Stadium, once stood. The only thing he didn't know was the track gauge, which I found out is 5' 2.5" (or is it 5' 2.25"?).
Informative and to the point is fine by me.
Peace,
ANDEE
On the Philly M-4s, the automated announcements announce the bus transfers, as well as the tourist attractions on street level, and even when the doors are opening and closing. The 142 (I hope) will probably do the same!
I had a bus driver like that on the 14th St crosstown...
I know the guy. I worked with him on the F a few months ago.
Next time I see him, I have to tell him to announce "Home of the N.Y. Rangers" at 34th st and 8th ave.
And Knicks !!
On Wednesday, the southbound track at Whitehall was out of service during the day. There was an emergency General Order in effect. I suspect they were checking the tracks and the switch north of Whitehall since a TSS was on the scene. If anybody remembers, an early A.M. R train derailed at the north end(entering end)about 3 years ago. I guess in light of the derailment at Dekalb, they aren't taking any chances. BTW, they discharged an N train at Rector St at 5:30 P.M. to use as a test train through the G.O. area, then the G.O. was completed for the day.
i saw this trace oos on monday and tuesday as well, because they had red lights in the track area and scaffolding up to the ceiling at the south end of the station.
With all of this talk of Rocker riding the Redbird #7, I can't help but wonder if any of the Orioles have to ride Baltimore's Metro to get to work?
I'll bet there are some in Balt. that would like to use the device that puts the trolley pole up & down for another purpose in regards to their so so pitcher.
Mr t__:^)
"... in regards to their so so pitcher ..."
I do know that this guy pitches for a team a little further South, You All :-) but that has nothing to do with his attitude.
Mr t
So-so pitcher - you maust be referring to our (overpaid) bullpen. As to the 2000 O's - the word is inconsistancy.
As to use of the device that puts the trolley pole up & down, some of us old-line Orioles fans believe that the device would be useful in dealing with the owner.
Don't think so - most seem to reside in areas not served by our Never on Sunday subway. Besides, with the (almost) obscene amount of money they all receive, I suspect they arrive at Oriole Park via (expensive) motor vehicles.
I wasn't thinking! Millionaires would not be caught riding the Metro.
The way they have been playing this year, they sure haven't been earning their paychecks. Each year, one thinks that they will have to be better next year, they couldn't be worse. Next year comes around and the Orioles prove that they can be worse!
see <> for the opening of the final strretch of the LA Red Line--money spent like water
...I will be there this saturday to see this sad chapter in mispent welfare public dole money to a misdirected
non compatible with the BLUE & GREEN lines stays below ground throughout the entire system & useless.....
""""THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE"" this 24 th a free ride day ..............Wooopppeeeee.........!!!!!
Los Angeles Subway Reaches End of the Line, New York Times, June 23rd, 2000.
--Mark
see [[http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/062300la-subway.html]] for the opening of the final strretch of the LA Red Line--money spent like water
(see [[http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/062300la-subway.html]] for the opening of the final strretch of the LA Red
Line--money spent like water )
The LA Subway cost $200 million per mile, and it went under mountains. The MTA says the Second Avenue will cost $1 billion per mile. If we could build a subway line for $200 or even $400 million per mile, we'd be building them like crazy.
Maybe the per mile cost seems cheap, but for a "hoped for" ridership of 100,000 per day (that's a very generous estimate) it is no bargain.
Tunneling under a mountain should be much cheaper than tunneling through the bedrock under Manhattan and taking into account what is already underground in Manhattan.
If LA wants subways, it will have to upzone and allow high density all along the line. Even given what is already underground in Manhattan, the cost of new subways is just beyond belief.
Following is a news story which has a local view of the Los Angeles subway and why it will go no further. It basicly agrees with, but gives more detail than the N.Y. Times article cited at the top of this thread.
http://www.latimes.com/news/state/20000618/t000057765.html
Unfortunately expensesm both real and corrupt made the project a disaster. The excess cost of architecturally unique stations IMHO is absurd. Stories abound from the early construction period of substandard work. Conversely the Blue line which connects to the Red is properly busy and is apparently about to have platforms lengthened to allow longer trains--these are artic LRV's generically similar to many others and are OPTO FYI. In any event the three half hearted attempst at transit will not kill autos in LA BUT at least they are of some use to the riders. (The Blue Line BTW basically restores a Pacific Electric route from the 20's--literally on the same ROW in many places. The more things change...
......geeeeez......I am going to be ont this thing tomorrow......is it safe ??....Its supposed to be a ""free ride"".....
& open to the public..... where do i park for this stuff ??..........oh well.....
LA Times article on the opening of the Red Line:
http://www.latimes.com/communities/news/los_angeles_metro/20000624/t000059849.html
-------
Several FREE articles (from the last 14 days) are available by clicking on the Search links:
http://www.latimes.com/cgi-bin/archsearch-cgi?DBQUERY=keywords%28metro+red+line%29&DATE=last+6+months&SECT;=&SORT=d%3Ah&NITEMS=25
How is it cheaper to tunnel under mountains than to tunnel under bedrock? $1 Billion per mile is outrageous. The 2nd Ave Stubway should NOT be costing that much. There must be something inflating that cost. For that amount of money the MTA could build a mostly-surface light rail line down all of 2nd Ave to the Financial District. Of course that's if the MTA wasn't so much against light rail.
......stop making sense old tom ......I nominate you to run the los angeles MTA....!!!
Actually, you can read what it can buy.
If you're not sitting on a leather chair sipping champagne and munching on free caviar and foie-gras while riding the train, you're not getting your money's worth.
...thats why they call it """the subway to nowhere " tomorrow & sunday 2 days free rides on the subway ...!!
.................WOOOOOPPPPPPEEEE........!!!!!!!!!!!............
.......thats why it is called here ( excuse me ) ...."""""THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE""!!!!
we already "coined" this a long time ago ..............
Did the soac cars ever run on PATCO in revenue service?
The SOAC program documentation that we have on the site says:
An extension of the SOAC demonstration program to provide approximately 9 months of revenue service on the Port Authority Transit Corporation (PATCO) High-Speed Line between Lindenwold, New Jersey, and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was arranged at PATCO's suggestion. Initiation of the service was delayed until August 12, 1976, due to necessary vehicle modifications and a protracted negotiation for liability insurance coverage. Several problems resulted in only 23 days of intermittent service and subsequent termination on January 24, 1977.
Read more at: http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html
-Dave
Good time for a Coming Events Plug:
See the REAL SOAC CARS, Sat, July 15, 2000, on the SubTalk Field Trip to the Seashore Trolley Museum (and Boston on Sunday).
DETAILS HERE!
....I'm just back from SFO, pix to Dave soon. Today I'm heading up to Seashore to drive our 1963 GMC bus in a parade in Biddeford, Maine :-)
Did the trains run automatically as the PATCO system is designed or did they run manually?
[Did the trains run automatically as the PATCO system is designed or did they run manually?]
PATCO's ATO system was installed and the trains were run "manual ATO".
(Bill Vigrass, personal communication , 6-24-00)
Yes, my dad caught them both on the BSL and then again on PATCO when he was taking to train for classes at Temple University.
Whats the difference between running release and full release on SMEE brake valves?
Not much. In full release, the Straight Air Pipe is vented
directly through a large orifice. In Running Release, the
SAP is also vented, but more slowly via the self-lapping portion.
Likewise the full release position was required for use if the electro=pneumatic brake failed.
What does SMEE abbreviate?
Find SMEE in the Glossary
Unfortunatey, the glossary is quite incorrect about this
point, which was debated ad nauseam last year. SMEE stands
for Straight-Air, Motor-Car, Emergency, Electric (as in electric
brake feature, aka B2)
B"H
Can any of you tell me why the #2 & #3 don't go to Flatbush, while the #4 & #5 go out to Utica/New Lots? It would seem to me that there would be a whole lot less switching going on south of Franklin. I know that the #3 has to be 9 cars because of the 148th terminal, but does the New Lots line have any 9 car length restrictions?
-yitz
The New Lots Avenue Line has no 9-car restrictions. Origin-destination studies would have to be done to determine whether sending both Lexington Avenue services (#4/#5) to Utica/New Lots and both Seventh Avenue services (#2/#3) to Flatbush Avenue (or even the other way around) would be advantagous to the majority of passengers. If the services were realigned in one of these two ways, however, something would still have to serve the Nostrand Avenue and Kingston Avenue stations (which the #3 does now when it operates), so there would still be some switching involved.
David
Would more or less switching have to be done if the 3 and 4 switched places in Brooklyn (i.e. 3 express to Utica Avenue, 4 local to New Lots)?
The Lexington Avenue tracks default to the Eastern Parkway express tracks, while the Seventh Avenue tracks default to the Eastern Parkway local tracks. Swapping the #3 and #4 services would involve extensive switching because every train would come into Nevins Street on the "wrong" track.
David
B"H
The SB express track actually lines up with the Utica Bound local track, thus making necessary the cross over in front of #2's to flatbush. Trains actually have to diverge in order to go express to Utica. On the NB side, there is a crossover from local to express just North of Nostrand (which is how the #5 goes express now). I think there would still be time spent waiting for trains to pass in front of others, but there would be less switching overall.
As far as traffic patterns, I hadn't thought about that much, and you may have a point. However, there are *always* tons of folks waiting to transfer at Franklin already, so, what would change there?
During non-rush hour there are three trains to Brooklyn, the 2,3 4... The Lexington expresses and the 7th Avenue Locals do not cross despite what was stated in the previous post... locals stay on local tracks to continue, the express never crosses it. During rush hour, there are four trains and unfortunately, the #5 must go on to the local tracks to go to Flatbush Avenue. Then it might be reasonable to avoid that by having all locals go to Flatbush Avenue. Unfortunately there is no other convenient cross-over track to move the #5 to the Eastern Parkway local without interfering with the Flatbush locals. And this crossover problem only occurs southbound, not northbound. The best thing they could do is build a tunnel from the SB express track to the Flatbush line, but that would be a pretty difficult engineering operation for something that they have lived with for 85 years already.
The crossover problem also occurs NB, where a 5 must wait for BOTH a 4 train and a 3 train to clear the area south of Franklin before it can leave President St.
This entire junction would perform a lot better had it been designed smarter. As it's set up now, the 2, 3 AND 5 share 1 track for a short stretch going towards Flatbush Ave. This limits capacity on the entire Brooklyn IRT.
To eliminate the switching problem, or more accurately, crossing the express in front of the local, you'd just have to take the 5 off of the Nostrand Ave line. But then again, there should be a reason (ridership, anyone?) that the train goes out there in the first place.
Even if you take the express away, you'll still have waits (albeit shorter ones) for the homeball to line up between the locals, and I don't know how many trains/hour can be turned at Utica if you run both the 4 and 5 there at rush hours (not a problem at mid-day;no 5 service beyond Bowling Green).
The Nostrand Ave. line is already bursting at the seams, and removing the #5 would be a disaster.
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-06-23/News_and_Views/Scandal_Sheet/a-70994.asp
Rob;
I looked at the article about John Rocker that your post pointed to, and got a laugh out of it, but it would have been more polite in your original post to give some idea of what the article was about so those of us with rickety old slow internet connections could decide whether we wanted to take the time to look at it or not.
Tom
Hi, all,
Just wanted you to know that I'll be out of town for the next 10 days and most likely won't be able to log onto SubTalk or BusTalk.
And to keep this on topic, I'll be on the Electric Railroaders' Association's tour of Hungary and Slovakia.
David
Have a good one. I'll be in Plano, Texas on business and shooting Light rail in Fort Worth and Dallas
Have a good time.
Peace,
ANDEE
hey david... i hope you have a great trip... wow... a 10 day trip with people from the era...
about an hour with those guys is all i can stand
the only thing worse would be a trip with subtalkers
while you're away, i'll do my best to keep the people here focused and on topic... i am going to keep a careful eye on doug, as he has a tendency to drift off into silliness...i promise you, when you get back, you won't recognize subtalk...
seriously, have a great time...
I had quite a pleasent day today as I travelled for the first time to Mamaroneck to see my friend. I have not rode the New haven line in 7 years, and this was a nice experience.
Some Notable Points:
-Mamaroneck is a very nice town to walk through. Many many independant stores on Main st.
-There was also a nice park by the sound complete with a marina and a beach.
-back at the station, I was waiing for my train back home when two lights appeared down the tracks far away. To lights, going very slowly, very small and extremely short. I could not figure out what is was! But then it came into clearer view and it was a pickup truck fitted with Hi-Rail wheels.
-Saw AEM7 #912 & #935 hauling an Acela Regional to New haven.
-Saw (on the way back) MNRR FL9 2026 & 2006 repainted in brilliant New haven livery heading east.
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net
Yes, Mamaroneck is a pleasant town.
I do some consulting work up there from time to time. The area has changed somewhat over the last 10 years I have seen it. Nevertheless, it still attracts a wide variety of people from all different walks of life.
The Metro North rail station is located in a very convenient area in the town - right in the heart of what is known as "downtown" Mamaroneck. As a railfan, I sometimes spend time sitting on the platform watching the different trains that pass. You will see those pickup trucks ride up and down the rails quite frequently during the midday hours. They have been working on the tracks in that area for some time. You will see FL9's and Genesis Locomotives pass mostly in the morning and evening rush hour times. In the Spring, the Ringling Brothers Circus train will pass the train station on the local northbound track. That's always a treat.
Mamaroneck Avenue is full of shops and restaurants. However, it will be undergoing extensive renovation soon. They will be installing new trees, streetlights, and sidewalks. The park you spoke of is called Harbor Island. It is a very tranquil area to sit and relax during the summer. There is a small beach at the end, and there is a rather large fireworks display on July 4th. And, as a bit of trivia, if there are any Subtalkers who are comic book fans, Archie Comics (Archie, Jughead, Josie & The Pussycats, and Sabrina) are drawn and published in the Village of Mamaroneck.
Since it looks like the A/B tracks will be closed when the 63rd Street connection opens, how about sending the second QB local over the Williamsburg Bridge as the J/Z, using the unused connection? The M would continue to run Downtown.
Basically that would be running the J to Manhattan using the old KK connection, then having it go through the 63rd Street tunnel, right? To this day, I have no idea why there isn't at least direct weekday service from the Jamaica el to Midtown over one of the main trunk lines. I know the KK train used to provide this service and was discontinued due to low low ridership but I think if it comes back, it will be more successful now than it was in the 70s.
[Basically that would be running the J to Manhattan using the old KK connection, then having it go through the 63rd Street tunnel, right? To this day, I have no idea why there isn't at least direct weekday service from the Jamaica el to Midtown over one of the main trunk lines. I know the KK train used to provide this service and was discontinued due to low low ridership but I think if it comes back, it will be more successful now than it was in the 70s.]
Somebody from the TA said once that they were examining it but didn't have a place to turn it around anymore.
What's wrong with Parsons Blvd? They could clean the train at both ends of the run -- using the same crew!
Guess they don't want to supplant the E or F
Back about l970 or so I tried to talk a neighbor in Cypres Hills into riding the KK when it ran thru Jamaica. Home station: Elderts Lane; work station: halfway between 42nd/6th and Grand Central. He said making all the stops in Brooklyn it took too long. I tried to convince him that a direct ride would make up for that. Oh no, it was still faster to go to Chambers, walk thru the connection, and take the Lex up. Imagine how much overload could have been taken off the Eand F as well; from West 4th south I'd guess time to Jamaica would match or be less than the F. Mileage wise it was shorter. If only you could get people to try something different. [and gain almost 3 minutes doing away with the Crescent St. curve. But then there are NIMBY's. I do hope the K type service is restored and this time becomes a success.
Now that there is decreased frequency of service on Broadway Brooklyn, there certainly enough headway to put in place a K local service every 8 minutes, running from Eastern Parkway. This would allow J and Z to go express (as QJ once did) from Eastern Parkway to Delancey and M to run express. As I see it, no problem of north terminal for K, either. Run it along with F to just before West 4th, switch to 8th Av. local tracks to 168th St--Washington Heights. The 8th Av. local tracks are not saturated at present. This would give K an attractive route including Penn Station and P.A. Bus Terminal.
The 8th Ave. idea is an excellent thought; better yet make the K the Brooklyn express and the J the local? , that is along with running the K to Jamaica, and eliminating the Z. It is a pity to have the underutilized line in status quo when IF ONLY YOU COULD GET THE HORSES TO DRINK THE WATER the Jamaica el-Midtown service could relieve some of the overcrowding. Since 63rd st. hasn't and never will relieve the problem without more Queens trackage to connect to here is FREE trackage, already in place, that could help.
(Since 63rd st. hasn't and never will relieve the problem
without more Queens trackage to connect to here is FREE trackage, already in place, that could help.)
The problem is the J/Z is sooooo slow. The Archer Avenue connection was supposed to convince Jamaica riders to LOWER Manhattan to get off the Queens Blvd Line. My boss lives in Kew Gardens. For a while after skip stop service was introduced, he was walking down and taking the Z. But he went back to the QB express, changing to the 6, changing to the 4/5, throwing his body into the most crowded routes in the system.
He could stay on the E and come around, but that means going all the way west and THEN south, which adds time if you are from Queens going downtown (or Brooklyn going to Midtown). These are folks who might take a full length Second Avenue.
After the LIRR to GCT, the MTA has plans to dump the money-losing LIRR Flatbush Branch (which duplicates other routes) on the TA, to move the losses onto its books. If (God Forbid) the state was actually willing to do SOMETHING for city residents, it could add stations along line from Jamaica to Broadway Junction, then hook it into the Fulton Express. It would be hooked into Archer Ave on the other end, taking the place of the J/Z. The Jamaica El east of Broadway Junction and A to Lefferts would both be abandoned, with the new subway taking their place.
More widely spaced stations, faster trains, and a more direct route to Downtown, this service might attract Jamaica to Lower Manhattan riders, whereas the J/Z does not.
Which raises a question--why is the J/Z so slow? It has an express track, but the trains seem to c r a w l the whole way.
Well the express from Marcy to Myrtle Ave, is not the best stretch for an express. For one, the train has to switch to the express track; then clear the switch from the 8 cars its pulling, then fight an incline all the way to Myrtle. There is a yellow signal just after Flushing station, so the J/Z never get past about 30 if lucky. If the Z would utilize the express from Myrtle to Eastern parkway, I think you would see the Z fly on those express tracks.
Frank D
It takes 8 minutes to get from Elderts lane to Crescent St. The double curve requires a 5 MPH GT signal along this stretch.
The best thing to do is to replace the Fulton St portion (which is the oldest in the system and will probably need major structural work in the future) with a straight run down Jamaica Ave. to Eastern Pkwy. This would speed up the line immensly.
Chris,
That would be an excellent idea. But I am afraid the NIMBY's as always would get in the way. But say if that was to happen, my suggestion would be what you said build the new EL continuing on to Jamaica to Eastern Parkway. The new tracks would be a three track layout. Continue to build the third track all way to 121st where a wye would start and end the express tracks.
Build the same stations that were on Fulton St on Jamaica Ave, except turn Crescent St into an express station. Service on this line would be...
J: To Broad St Nassau St Lcl/Jamaica Ave Lcl/Broadway Lcl. All times
Z: To Broad St Nassau St Exp/Jamaica Ave Exp/Broadway Exp. M-F (Exp peak direction only)
How about that...
Frank D
Yep, like a lower Manhattan version of the Flushing line. With the Z stopping only at Parsons, Sutphin, Crescent/Cypress Hills (where a new express stop should be built, just west of where the turn is made off of Jamaica presently), Eastern Pkwy, Myrtle And MArcy, it would be a much quicker way to get into the financial district then via the E. An express run down the length of Jamaica could shave 12-15 minutes off the ride. And what a run! No !@#$%& curves to slow you down.
Exactly... Then with this new trackage complete, you can introduce the K service out of Canarsie(Rockaway Pkwy) to Bedford Park Blvd.
Also while the new tracks are being constructed, create a wye after Marcy Ave so trains will not be bottlenecked going over the Willy B.
Frank D
No. Noone is tearing down the Jamaica Ave. el any more than it's been already. Havent we learned anything from history?
No one is suggesting tearing anthing down, just moving it over a few blocks. And of course the new trackage would have to be built first, not "real soon" after the old structure is demolished.
Similarly, one could send the M up 6th Avenue and leave the J/Z on Nassau Street (and send it ou to Bay Parkway).
However, the "second QB local over the Williamsburg Bridge," whether it's called M, J, V, or #14, would still result in 480-foot trains (8 cars, 60 feet each) along Queens Blvd instead of 600-foot trains (8x75 or 10x60). Is that sufficient?
The G does it every day, with only 450 feet, even during rush hour (at Roosevelt the 1st and last cars are severely overcrowded if > 5 minute wait after 5:15). It'd be great to see actual 8 car trains pull up to the 8 marker on the QB line.
The MTA just announced tonight on the news that the t/o of the B train was high on crack when it derailed.
CNN just reported the MTA said the motorman in the DeKalb derailment allegedly tested positive for cocaine, though judging from the speed the train reportedly was going, it doesn't seem as if this would have played a part in the accident, like the Union Square disaster of a decade ago.
They figured to get sued anyway over the derailment by some of the injured passengers. With this report, the injury lawyers are going to come running faster than an R-10 going down CPW.
[CNN just reported the MTA said the motorman in the DeKalb derailment allegedly tested positive for cocaine, though judging from the speed the train reportedly was going, it doesn't seem as if this would have played a part in the accident, like the Union Square disaster of a decade ago.
They figured to get sued anyway over the derailment by some of the injured passengers. With this report, the injury lawyers are going to come running faster than an R-10 going down CPW.]
Heck, even if the T/O had never touched drugs or alcohol in his life, the personal injury lawyers would still be swarming around like flies eating [deleted].
It seemed at if the people removed from the train in gurneys and arm casts were smiling! As if they hit the lottery.
Im going to disney world was one quote from one of the injured.
Ah, The "Whiz Quiz" "Drivin'a train, high on cocaine, went and flushed my job right down the drain." ---FREAKIN" IDIOT!!!
Many people who ride the subway have a very negative view of transit workers in general as being overpaid, leaving work early, having 2 hour lunches and having hours off in between half trips. With this man testing positive, the view by riders is tarnished even more. I have been told in crewrooms that "We are our own worst ememy." It is so true. The derailment having nothing to do with him being on "coke" is immaterial. It gives the TA and those who mandate random testing more justification than ever before. In the TA when one is guilty, everybody is guilty. When 1 guy screws up, a bulletin or memo comes out accusing everybody. Such is life in the subway.
(Many people who ride the subway have a very negative view of transit workers in general as being overpaid, leaving work early, having 2 hour lunches and having hours off in between half trips.)
Actually, in talking with a lot on people over the past few years, I have seldom heard transit-workers disparaged. Basically, the rise in performance has convinced people that transit workers earn their pay, especially compared with the 1960s and 1970s.
People think LIRR workers are overpaid bums, however.
The whole point of my post was that the T/O in question broke faith with his union brothers as well as the MTA and the traveling public. Professionals deserve to be well paid for their skill, knowlege judgement and reaction. Drug abusers harm this professional image and give strength to those IDIOT econocrats who are taking all of the productivity gains and paying them out through the stock market and making damned sure that those who worked to bring those gains abuot don't see a dime.
It is rather unfortunate, but in the transporation fields in general, the drug of choice for abusers is indeed cocaine. The reason being is that the jobs of pilots, T/O's, bus drivers, and mariners are repetitive ones and their duties take them through hours that most folks would normally be sleeping. And cocaine gives the user an added "boost" to keep going when the body is actually trying to shut down.
Still, the abuse that does go on should NOT be tolerated. However, being that the T/O was not at fault for the derailment -- and in light of the fact that he acted properly during the emergency -- he should be fired, but be allowed to receive most if not all of his retirement pay.
Doug aka BMTman
The SubTalk Live chat will still be held at Saturdays at 8. For those that voted, thanks. For those that didn't, well, don't blame me if you don't like the time.
Hi Folks, Once again I rode ANOTHER HOT R33 on the # 2 line. This was car # 8965 she is the second south motor. What the HELL is going on? Is the A/C on these cars dying or something?
Pay It! Your looking at 30-50 year old cars, they're are dying! I'll be surprised if 50% of the Redbird fleet can squeeze out good A/C for this hot a$$ summer we are in for.
Flxible Metro B #3511
It's true: the cars are old. But the air conditioning systems are quite a bit newer.
......what did the riders of the hi v & low vs do ???..........I think you folks today are too .......SOFT & WEAK ....!!!!
They were equipped for no a/c. Windows opened nice and wide. The stupid GOH relegated all redbird windows to small openings, and you can no longer prop open the storm door, R-33S and R-62 Kawasaki excepted.
don't complain..
open a window pane.
Hey, I've seen this message before!
At least YOU don't have to ride them when their A/C fails . . .
...you're catching on, brah.
You're lucky ... you don't have to ride them on a regular basis. And knowing how New Yorkers are, I'm sure the riders of the High- and Low-Vs bitterly complained about how hot it was.
I actually got to ride in a set of old IRT cars on the 42nd St Shuttle. They ran them there in October 1994 to commemorate the 90th anniversary of the opening of the original IRT line, which of course included the shuttle tracks. And guess what? - they were hot. Really uncomfortable inside. I also rode the Redbird cars BEFORE they got A/C. Believe me, nobody enjoyed it, not even with the storm doors open.
Riding the NYC subway in the summer is hair-raising enough. Sitting in a sweltering-hot subway only adds insult to injury. Oh and try telling a bunch of angry construction workers in a hot subway car that they're soft and weak . . .
Ever since 1969 we've been spoiled by A/C. Now we can't live without it. I remember the BAD OLD DAYS, filthy, decrepit R-6s running on the "E" and "F" lines, heat on in the summer, fans not working, people bathed in sweat, awful conditions. Yes, things are better now. Is that a good thing? Yes and no...
wayne
In the late 60s/early 70s the most annoying thing on the E/F lines during the summer was "Slant-40 Roulette" -- hoping that wherever you were standing on the platform, especially during rush hours, was the spot where one of the 100 AC Slant-40s would stop, and not one of the 200 non-AC Slants (with a special bonus if you happened to get R-38s 4140 through 4149 to stop in front of you).
The A/C on the R38 prototypes was kind of weak. However, the A/C on Slant R40's #4350-4449 was particularly intense, and the lighting was better as well. The Non-A/C Slants (#4150-4349) were pretty tough in the summertime, with all that soot, superheated air and dim lights.
I remember playing this little game at Lexington-53rd Street. Sometimes if it was too hot, I would actually take an R40M "E" if it came in. I disliked the "E", preferring the full-blown express run as far as Parsons Bvld.
wayne
I disliked the E because it ran local along 8th Ave. (except during rush hours) even though the R-1/9s were marked, "E-8th Ave. Express." Some express, I thought. I avoided E trains south of 42nd St. at all costs, even if it meant being late for Saturday school. It's the price you have to pay when you insist on taking a certain train. If it's not a missed train connection, it's getting a crush-loaded train on a sweltering day with the heat on.
That's bull. Technology should make people's lives easier. Do you complain that people have been softened by indoor plumbing? Electric light?
True. But they sure don't feel that way.
The car type with the most unairconditioned cars I've ridden this summer is the R-62a, just today 2374 on the 1 had no a/c.
I wouldn't know, I haven't ridden the subway at all this summer.
I'm assuming you mean from 6-21-0?
No, I mean 6/20, summer rarely starts on the 21st. And 9PM. If it was in the morning then I wouldn't be able to claim that record.
Just curious...
Are there any MTA workers that visit this BBS? What do you do?
Do you like your job?
Thanks,
Dave
I will be starting as an intern at the NYCT-RTO Command/Control Center next week. I look foward to bringing SubTalk some stories about incidents in the system that others will not have heard about.
-Harry
hey harry... say hello to frank correll over there... he's a legend, second only to caz dolowicz...
If you talk on the radio, conduct yourself with the professionalism of an Air Traffic Controller. Too many guys down there in the Control Center are testy most of the time (especially one un-named individual down there with 30+ years with the TA). Yes, some motormen don't know how to talk either, but I do and so many others do as well, only to be answered by annoyance, sarcasm and constant repeating of transmissions. And give the crew a chance to evaluate the train trouble! If you keep calling them, how can they troubleshoot?
I think that if you pay close attention you may find that more than a dozen NYCT employees post here on a regular basis
Dave, There are quite a few "lukers" from the TA that visit this site from time to time ... which by the way I think is a good thing, especially if they are "suit" as we can hope they lear a thing or two.
In my mind this site is the next best thing to actually getting out in the field to see how things are running & maybe even talking with some of the operators & conductors and customers (oh bite my tung).
Mr t__:^)
While waiting for the bus last night at Great Neck it an announced that the eastbound train was running late. It arrived about 20 minutes late and appeared to be short. What was interesting was it appeared the guy was operating the doors from the front car, and the engineer was in the middle car of the train.
How and why do they do that? Lead car was #4696
The engineer can operate doors and this is done at a regular basis.
The person in the middle can be a brakeman or conductor or a mechanic.
The engineer can operate from any position. This is usually done because there is a problem in the first few MUs. This was done on my Babylon express a few years back. The person in the front can be acting as a lookout. With cab signal this can be done safely.
I don't think the train could go all the way to Penn. There is a grade crossing at Little Neck and it wouldn't be safe to so so.
The train was late so there was obviously some sort of problem. What I saw was the conductor operating doors from front car and "looking out" as the train left the station.
Also the train had to position itself properly before stopping, it stopped and started again several times, probably because the engineer was in the middle and couldn't see the platform end.
I guess since LIRR has the cab signals they can do this. Has this ever been done in east river tubes as well? Can this be done on subway trains as well?
Can this be done on subway trains as well?
I saw an N train that died at 14st operate from the middle cab. The train had discharged all passengers, and ran with the taillights at the front and headlights in the middle. It was left at 42st express tracks.
They could probably run it into Penn if they stopped at and then flagged the grade crossing that someone mentioned.
back in the 70's i was a set of mp-54 that got stuck in the middle of the husdon river tube in rush hour. the engineer had work from second cab. the flagman was a look out
4696! Are you sure it wasn't 9696? I thought the only current cars on the LIRR that started with 4 were C-3 trailers, and the highest is mid 4100s.
Maybe he saw a renumbered MP-54B! :o>
Seriously, folks - the Bilevels go as high as #4134.
That was probably #9696; even numbered cars always on the east end; odd numbered cars on the west.
Did they do this back in the days of the MP-54, the even numbered coach on the east end and the odd-numbered car on the west?
wayne
Perhaps the 9 was so worn it looked like a 4?
Some recent posts have suggested that the "B" division R-143's will be 60 feet long. Is there anybody who works for the MTA who knows why the decision was made to change the car length from 67 feet to 60 feet?
It was my understanding that the 67-foot length was originally chosen as a compromise; Instead of having 75-foot cars for most of the "B" division, and having 60-foot cars for the M, J, Z and L lines, a single, standard (no pun intended) car could be created for that entire division for all future orders of rolling stock.
And...if the MTA is going to order a new fleet of 60-foot cars...does this mean that they are giving up on the idea of longer cars (i.e., 75-footers) for any future orders?
They need 60' cars to replace the existing 60'ers. I suppose they ditched the 67' idea because the end doors have to be locked, and the markers and conductor boards would need to be repositioned on every line.
Besides that as much as I liked the 75 foot cars, at least for esthetics and practicality, it was unsafe..whether on the subway or Amtrak or any train to be locked in one car. Crime is one concern, what about accidents and fires? Even an Amtrak sleeper was consumed by fire once, imagine how much more equipment is on a subway car.
From this, it looks like the Triplex design was the best after all! No locks between 3-car sets, more seating and standing capacity!
I never could understand why NYCTA has not considered articulated equipment. It had decades of experience with them. They only dumped the triplexes relatively early (c.37 years) because they were a variant, not because they were difficult to maintain.
It doesn't make sense to semi-permanently couple 240 or 300 foot long train sets and not consider articulation--safer, more flexible, more economical.
I agree. It'd also save on maintenance costs, with fewer trucks per units, (5 for a four car articulated unit, as opposed to 8 for a regular 4-car unit) and it would allow smoother, faster service on the curve plagued J/M/L lines.
Stockholm uses some nice 3-section articulated cars. They certainly would save on maintenance costs and give faster service. But I guess it would kill the MTA to consider a similar product.
Building a 150-foot atriculated car would give you three sections that would each be 50-feet long, or roughly the size of your standard IRT car. That would also allow three doors per side on each of the sections or nine doors on each unit, one more than the current 75-footers allow.
Since one of the problems with the 75-footers compared to the 60-footers is a loss of entry/exit capacity (32 doors per side on a 600-foot R-44/46/68 train versus 40 per side on an R-32/38/40/42), having four 150-foot articulated sections per 600-foot train would boost the door total from 32 to 36, along with allowing those trains to operate on the Eastern Division.
After finally getting into articulated buses, the MTA really should take a look at going back to articulated trains when it comes time to replace the R-38/40/42s in the next six to 10 years.
I'm going to try to find out how long and wide the new C20 articulated cars on the Stockholm subway are. From pictures I saw, the Stockholm subway uses the same type of third rail that New York City does, so it's not like the power collecting mechanisms need to be readapted. The least the TA can do is test a set of Stockholm articulated cars in the system to see how they do.
Well folks, I checked out a really nice website (in English) about Stockholm's subway system and its sleek new C20 articulated cars. The first cars went into service in 1997. I hoped to find out if they could be successfully operated on the J, M and Z trains and elsewhere in New York. And guess what? THEY CAN!
The C20s are 46.5 meters long, 3.8 meters high and 2.9 meters wide, which is about 154 feet long, about 12.5 feet high and just under 10 feet wide. So they should not have any problems navigating the old Eastern Division tracks, tight curves and all. Three 3-section C20s would be about 18 feet shorter than an eight R42 cars. Plus it would have fewer wheelsets per train: Just 12 wheelsets on the C20s (four per car) as opposed to 16 on eight 60-foot cars. Four C20s (not done in Stockholm due to platform lengths) for Southern Division and IND lines would be about 16 feet longer than 10 R32s, which really isn't that much. Four C20s have just 16 wheelsets while 10 of the 60-footers have 20. So it would really be saving money on maintenance costs to use articulated cars in the NYC subway.
Is somebody at the MTA reading this? I sure hope so.
The fellow who translates that site to English occasionally posts here... I don't remember his name at the moment but he's an American expatriate working there as a motorman.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The fellow who translates that site to English occasionally posts here... I don't remember his name at the moment but he's an American expatriate working there as a motorman.]
Tim Kynerd
Articulation is more economical - which is exactly why the TA has never considered it. When have they ever done the more economical thing? But it was the BMT that had decades of experience with articulation, not the TA. No sooner than the City took over the BMT, they set out to scrap anything and everything that was articulated. And the TA continued that. The BMT made an order for 50 sets of Bluebirds. Five of them were under construction and went into service, but when the City took over they cancelled the rest of the order. But then again, City politicians weren't about to follow in the wise footsteps of the BMT.
Well, the BMT had the experience in specifying articulateds, but still the BofT/TA kept a substantial number running (Triplexes and Multis) for two decades plus.
They've just been such a dinosaur of car design. OTOH, I shouldn't insult the dinosaurs--reasonably maintained, they lasted 65 million years ;-)
65 million is the number of years ago that dinosaurs were extinct.
Dinosaurs lasted from 250 MYA to 65 MYA, which means 185 million years.
There are those who say the Triplexes were the best subway cars ever built (for New York, anyway).
The J/M and L lines have been served by 60' cars for 30+ years now. Several stations cannot use trains longer that 480' any longer (Metropolitan Ave. comes to mind). 60' cars can run anywhere, do not require and structural changes made to any stations, and can be run outside the Eastern Division without any need to alter those stations (like the 67' R110B, which requires it's own special conductor's indicator boards).
Can somebody please explain why the end doors must be locked on longer (75') cars, but not on shorter cars?
Longer cars have a sharper turning radius, thus increasing the amount of space between the ends of each car on curves. On the 75' cars, the space is so great that it's too dangerous to allow people to move between cars in motion.
From what I heard from a F Train T/O, is that the R46 and other 75 feet long cars have smaller between car platforms. Also, when the Train turns sharp turns like the one between Jamaica Van Wyck and Sutphin Boulevard, the Platforms miss align, meaning the passengers will not be able to safely cross the Trains. But when Trains are Relayed the T/O can unlock all the End doors with the Turn of his/her key in the Key hole called End Door. And its not because of car length. Its because of safety reasons. The R62's and 62A's have the End door lock feature as well, its just unnecessary.
Actually, Y is it that LIRR doesn't allow you to move thru the cars, yet people do it anyway because No one locks the doors between the cars. The M-1s,M-3's even the Bilevels allow people to move thru the cars although its not allowed.
Actually, Y is it that LIRR doesn't allow you to move thru the cars, yet people do it anyway because No one locks the doors between the cars. The M-1s,M-3's even the Bilevels allow people to move thru the cars although its not allowed.
People have to get to the bathroom; Kew Gardens, Forest Hills, Pinelawn, and Long Island City have short platforms; its a pain in the ass for a conductor to collect tickets if he has to unlock and relock the doors every time.
You're not 'allowed' to go between cars anywhere, (PATH and SEPTA come to mind, as do < 67' NYC subway cars), but the doors are unlocked because its safer if you are attacked. Remember the girl that was robbed and slashed in the R-44, after trying (unsuccessfully) to get to the next car? I think she sued, don't know if she won or not.
The R62 and 62A cars do NOT have an End Door lock feature. This is only found on the R44/46 and R68/68A cars.
First off, the B-division (both BMT and IND) tunnels and subway structures had been built for 60’ cars travelling through them. Gene Sansone, in his Evolution of New York Subway Cars book, made an analogy about 75’ (and even 67’) cars running on such tracks to certain automobiles running on roads not intended for their use, or something like that. Besides, the problems and migraine headaches the TA had due to the tsuris (trouble) relating to the R-44, R-46, R-68/68A and R-110B (pilot) trains probably convinced the higher-ups at N.Y.C.T. that this whole 75’ or 67’ car idea may have been better in concept than in execution.
The BMT (then the BRT) was built to handle the 67-foot Standards, since the city refused to allow the company's wooden el cars to operated underground (except for the brief Essex Street execption), and the Standards were the first cars the BMT used when the bulk of its underground lines went into operation. The BMT then came up with the articulated Triplexes after that and it wasn't until just before the IND debuted in 1932 that the 60-foot R-1s arrived to run tests on the BMT lines.
The problem was the BMT, like the IRT, pretty much set up their lines so that the cars were at the maximum tolerance on several of the curves (I doubt a 55-foot car could make it around the jughandle of the No. 5 train at 149th Street). Back in the 70s, the MTA seemed content to do a little widening here and there on the BMT tunnels (like the S curve between City Hall and Chambers), so that the new 75-footers could operate on the IND and the BMT Southern Division. Meanwhile, the older cars were shunted off to the Eastern Division, where they could manage the tighter unmodified curves.
The ironic part is, the MTA has painted itself into a corner come about 15 or 20 years from now, when the R-44/46s are nearing the end of their lifespans and the R-68s care getting creaky. Past history would dictate sending those cars to the J/L/M/Z lines as they got more unreliable, and putting the newest trains on the main Midtown trunk lines. But in this case, those 75-footers are stuck on the mainlines until they go to the scrapper (you can only stick so many of them on the G or the Rockaway or Franklin shuttles), while the Eastern Division will see new trains similar to the R-143s, as the R-38, R-40, R-42s and (eventually) the R-32s are retired.
Good news for those Eastern Division riders -- so long as they plan to still be using those lines around the year 2020...
The C probably will get the last of the 75'ers, along with the G and shuttles. Also, they could always sell them to some other company before retirement time, and buy new cars with the proceeds. Maybe SEPTA would be interested in some 75' cars (BSS)?
I doubt that there will be no new 75' cars. I believe the next few car purchases will be 60' cars because all the old 60'cars will be gone in 15 years, so 60' cars will be needed for the Eastern division once this happens. However, 75' cars have maintenance advantages that cannot be ignored, and won't be.
We'll just have to see 15 or 20 years from now. If the MBDF of those trains is still good when it gets time to reorder new ones, they probably will stick with the 75-footers. However, if they start having old age problems and can't be shipped off to the less-used lines because of their extra length, thereby causing more delays during rush hour in Midtown Manhattan, the MTA may decide the added flexibility of a standardized 60-foot fleet is worth the maintenance tradeoff the extra two cars per train entail. (And I would assume any new 60-footers would probably be lined in both A-B-B-A and A-B consists to allow eight-car usage on the Eastern Division or 10 car trains on the other lines. The four car linkage would help with the maintenance costs)
The R110B was designed to what they thought was the same
specs as the standards: 67' body, 10' wide, 47' between
bolsters. What they forgot is that the Standards used trucks
with unequal wheel diameters (I think it was 33" on the powered
axle and 31" on the unpowered) that had an asymmetrical
design: the truck bolster was not quite centered between the axles
as it is on, say, SMEE trucks. Thus, the 67' design didn't quite
make it through the same spots that the Standards did.
1. Why do the speedometers in the middle-of-set cabs not work?
2. What is that express-local switch for, I believe under the ENERCON heading on the control panel?
3. Why are there metal plates preventing the transverse cab door from going inward on the lex lines and the 3 (I know why the 1 doesn't, the cabs must be turned to half-length in the middle for the stragglers like me to get out at S. Ferry).
4. What are those yellow planks for, and why are there 2 in the transverse cabs?
5. How does the T/O scroll the front rollsign?
6. Why can't they half-length the rear cab and unused middle cab (not fully, just lock the door in the half-length position) on the trains for extra standing room and rear-railfan window?
7. Why does the 42st S T/O run with the end door lights on, even though they cause a reflection?
The middle-car speedos aren't even there anymore, on the linked cars.
The yellow planks are called 'slippers'. They have a number of uses, but their intent is to allow someone to disengage the third-rail shoe from the third rail, to cut power to a single car.
The metal plates keep the doors from being kicked in.
THey don't set the doors to 1/2 cab because there is equipment in the cab that can be tampered with.
-Hank
Some of the sets on the 6 line still have them in the middle, but it says 0 all the time.
>>THey don't set the doors to 1/2 cab
>>because there is equipment in the cab
>> that can be tampered with.
Not much one can do with a half-wall
and about four feet of standing room...
I've been on the subways in Chicago, Washington, DC, and Los Angeles, where full-width cabs are kept open, except for the T/O corner, when they are in the middle of the train. In all 3 cases, a regular passenger seat folds down in the open section of the cab.
Just imagine what that scenario would be like in New York: The open cab would probably be filled with discarded trash, some people would use it as a urinal, and the seat would be a bunk for a homeless person.
An MTA person may confirm or deny this: It looks as though in the case of the full-width cab R62's, there's a vertical post that must be bolted or screwed into the floor and ceiling, which makes conversion from half-width to full-width (and vice-versa) "on-the-fly" impossible.
>>> The open cab would probably be filled with discarded trash <<<
I don't think that is necessarily true. When I rode the BMT standards I usually rode in the first car to look out the storm door, but one late evening leaving Coney Island I was too tired to go to the front of the train and entered one of the middle cars. The cab in that car had been converted to passenger seating, with a double wide seat, and no door, but the full floor to ceiling partition behind the seat and no light in the cubicle. It was private from the rest of the car except for the seat immediately across from it. That area was no worse than the rest of the car, which was pretty messy after hauling the beach crowd all day, but would be no harder to sweep out than the rest of the car.
It did not smell like a urinal, but I imagine some young couples appreciated the privacy.
Tom
People back in those days had more respect for public property; graffiti and scratchiti were rare, and there weren't a whole lot of homeless people wandering the streets and the transit system.
When the Standards were originally delivered, they were all delivered as individual cars, with motorman cabs at each end. Naturally, the 50 trailers did not have cabs.
Many were eventually coupled into three car sets permanently (2000,2001,2002), and were known as B units.
The 2400 series were coupled in permanent three car sets but with a trailer in the middle (2434,4017,2435), and were known as BX units.
Most of the high numbered Standards remained as single units, and were known as A units.
The unused motorman's cabs created by the permanent couplings were converted into two additional seats. These seats had an illusion of privacy, due to the rear wall of the old cab remaining. It was the best seat to get on the car when you were out on a date. Of course, this was back at a time when mugging and robbery were all but unheard of.
How does that standee pole prevent them from closing the wall, assuming the wall CAN be closed.
-Hank
Because the wall is bolted to the pole. If the wall were to be unbolted and the pole removed, the wall folds back against the side of the carbody and a seat can be installed in front of it.
There is equipment in the cab that can be tampered with.
PATH seems to do fine with that same exact equipment out in the open for the C/R position.
PATH does not have the same vandalism problems as the TA. Check out PATH's picture windows. So mushy you can push them out with a flick of the wrist! Try that in the TA! Instant air conditoning! Breezy and always hot! Ever see scratched glass on PATH? I've never noticed!
It's been discussed. Their shoe isolators (or whatever) and can be used to removed the shoe from the third rail. They're also used to prop the front door open.
There's an access panel on that side, it looks like the panel near the doors
How are they going to switch ends at the terminal then? Completely "collapsing" the cab is a rather involved process. You can't just close half the cab because the other half has door controls and other things that would need to be concealed by fully collapsing the cab.
You can't just close half the cab because the other half has door controls and other things that would need to be concealed by fully collapsing the cab.
Just how did they conceal the door controls on the AB's?
>>> how did they conceal the door controls on the AB's? <<<
Steve;
The cabs on the Standards were only 1/3 the width of the car. The doors were not operated by the T/O but by a C/R in another car. The C/R would change cabs whenever the station was on the other side. The cabs were kept locked and not collapsed at all.
Tom
The cabs on the Standards were only 1/3 the width of the car. The doors were not operated by the T/O but by a C/R in another car. The C/R would change cabs whenever the station was on the other side. The cabs were kept locked and not collapsed at all.
You've obviously never ridden in a BMT AB standard. The door controls were not in the T/O cabs like today's cars. The door controls were not between the cars like the R1-R14, or the C, D or Q cars. The door controls were in the passenger compartment on the post between the center doors.
Let me repeat my question. Why was tampering with the door controls not a problem with the AB's.
It was a different time and society was different.
The same things didn't apply then?
Remember when there were cushioned seats? Why are those gone?
t was a different time and society was different.
The same things didn't apply then?
Another poster already noted that PATH appears to have no problmes in THIS time and THIS place.
Remember when there were cushioned seats? Why are those gone?
The cane seats fought back.
The red material from the cushions bonded to the seat of your pants on a hot sweltering day. I can still remember the sound of peeling them off of poplin or seersucker. My guess is that to go back to cane would have raised too many questions. So, they used their reflex excuse and blamed the customer.
>>> The red material from the cushions bonded to the seat of your pants on a hot sweltering day. I can still remember the sound of peeling them off of poplin or seersucker. My guess is that to go back to cane would have raised too many questions <<<
Steve;
The real reason for the conversion was cost. The cane seats were much more labor intensive to make, and when the first piece of cane broke with wear, it left sharp ends that could be felt through a pair of slacks and ruined many a pair of nylon stockings. Trimming the sharp edges was labor intensive, and it was necessary to make many inspections.
On top of that, after WW II, any synthetic covering was looked at as "modern" and therefore better than the old fashioned way. Maybe you remember Corfam shoes?
Tom
when the first piece of cane broke with wear, it left sharp ends that could be felt through a pair of slacks and ruined many a pair of nylon stockings...
I did say that the cane seats fought back :-)
On top of that, after WW II, any synthetic covering was looked at as "modern" and therefore better than the old fashioned way. Maybe you
remember Corfam shoes?
They did use artificial cane for the R10 through R14's. Possibly also for the R9's.
The original coverings for the R15's were a brown leather-like material that avoided the ventilation problems of the later red material.
The TA went ahead and retrofitted all cars with this red material. They compounded the problem by using foam rubber padding underneath enabling the red material to form an air tight seal with one's trousers.
The bonding would be less of a problem today with air conditioned cars.
The bonding would be less of a problem today with air conditioned cars.
The problem would still be present. A ventilation path is required for any seat. Body weight and heat are still present. Add a small oily residue for the previous occupant's sweat and voila!
>>> The door controls were in the passenger compartment on the post between the center doors. <<<
Steve;
Thank you for your polite correction. You were, of course correct concerning the position of the door controls, but not remembering that detail after being away from that equipment for about 44 years does not mean I never rode the standards. It is true I was never a C/R on a standard, and I usually rode in the front car at the railfan window so I did not get to see the C/R at work.
After looking at a couple of photos of the Standard's interior, I do remember seeing the controls , but they were embedded in steel, and without the C/R's key you could poke at them all day long and absolutely nothing would happen.
Anyone intent at vandalizing those controls could just as easily break into one of the motor cabs. I am sure that such things have happened, but both then and now it is a relatively rare occurrence considering the total number of riders.
Tom
The panel on the opposite side of the operating postition only has a door control panel. For the panel to even work, you need a vapor key. Unfortunately, some kids somehow manage to get the keys. So, what's wrong with putting a sheet of metal over it.
1. Why do the speedometers in the middle-of-set cabs not work?
they should work even in non-operating cabs. One of the operating criteria was that the speedo would be energized in all cabs to make monitoring of speed possible. If they are not operating, it's because they are not being maintained or they are being canibalized.
2. What is that express-local switch for, I believe under the ENERCON heading on the control panel?
The express-local switch energized the energy conservation relay for local running. This would keep a local train from running up into field shunting on local runs. Today all trains run in the 'local' mode.
3. Why are there metal plates preventing the transverse cab door from going inward on the lex lines and the 3 (I know why the 1 doesn't, the cabs must be turned to half-length in the middle for the stragglers like me to get out at S. Ferry).
4. What are those yellow planks for, and why are there 2 in the transverse cabs?
They are called shoe paddles or shoe slippers. In an emergency they are used to isolate a subway car from 3rd rail power. They have other unofficial uses too. Such as wedging a cab door open, holding an end-door closed or waking the homeless at the terminals.
5. How does the T/O scroll the front rollsign?
Some are driven by a motor and some are rolled using a small hand crank.
6. Why can't they half-length the rear cab and unused middle cab (not fully, just lock the door in the half-length position) on the trains for extra standing room and rear-railfan window?
7. Why does the 42st S T/O run with the end door lights on, even though they cause a reflection?
Explain your question, please...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explain your question, please...
One of the shuttle operators leave the light over the storm door and left window on (in the cab), even though it causes a reflection which (I overheard from a T/O talking to a passenger) can cause problems seeing signals and objects in the tunnel.
Well, think about it. The shuttle NEVER meets another train, and operators get pretty familiar with their routes. I'm sure several shuttle operators can tell you how many pillars are in the tunnel, and what color the graffitti on them is.
-Hank
I mean, what if someone fell in or was trespassing, or a large obstruction was on the tracks?
Thanks for clarifying the question. While there is no sound operational reason for operating with the cab light on, I have been in the operator's seat with the opposite cab light on. The amount of glare caused is insignificant. However, it's possible that the train operator is afraid of the dark.
I had the good fortune of running the R1-9 on Brooklyn expresses.Regularly on the Jamaica el and also on the short lived Culver expresses. Outbound as I worked PM's. These both felt about the same. A nice long straight piece of express track in part of both runs and moved quite nicely. Along Broadway was a little neater though... more and mostly higher buildings to echo the sounds better. Along Broadway on these cars you could almost think you were on the 3rd Ave. el. Then there was the E when it was the Fulton express, best yet to Rockaways. With the exception of a few timers and curves it was a nice fast stretch of track in both directions. Then running to Rockaway was grand; especially when I'd coast the last mile or so into Howard Beach. Those heavy trains rolled nicely. On 4th Avenue [B service} the stretch between Pacific and 36 st was a dandy, and you'd have a tiger by the tail coming into 36 st. Being used to the R32 on that stretch, even though I was happy to have the R9, you'd better know how to use your air {trust me I had to learn with a little scare!) You were flying and the air was all you had, no dynamic. Going into Pacific was fast too. But my favorite of all was the Brighton express. 4 track main,nice straight track, ballasted roadbed almost felt like you were on an interurban. I was thankful indeed that I had that opportunity while the R1-9 were still on that line. Better be ready with that air making most of the stops; Sheepshead Bay was tricky, your rear end would be pushing you as you stopped, either direction had a dip coming in. More later.
Were you one of those Q or M motormen back in the mid-60s running an R32? Those guys really knew how to build up a head of steam northbound from Kings Highway to Newkirk, fly through the Av. H area and yet get into Newkirk with a steady, uniform stop.
Might have been. I worked vacation relief and covered all the lines by choice. But I wasn't a road motorman until right after Chrystie connection opened. At that time the D and QJ were the Brighton services, with rush hour QB's. I can offer that my last trip, my first day on the road was an R32 on the D and I heard some train buffs outside the cab say "this guy isn't a BMT motorman" Right, I came from the IND. That comment meant I was fast.BMT men were thought to be slow.
I would love to compare any R-1/9 run between Howard Beach and Broad Channel with that R-10 rocket ride of July 1969. If they had had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, those R-10s would have gotten up to at least Ab above middle C, if not A. It was on that very same day that I rode on a prewar E express along Fulton St. back to Manhattan.
These are the preliminary plans for the opening of the H tracks on the Manhattan Bridge and the closing of the A-B tracks for 4 years.
Remember - these are preliminary.
Bn - Bedford park Blvd. to 34th St. 6th Ave - 6 Trains/Hour
Bs - Ditmars/Astoria to Stillwell Av - 10 trains/Hr. pending H track capacity analysis.
Dn - 205th Street to 34th St. 6th Ave. 8 trains per hour.
Ds - 57th St & 7th Av. to Stillwell Ave 10 trains per hour pending H track capacity analysis.
N - Ditmars/Astoria to Stillwell via Montague Tunnel. 6 trains per hour.
Q - 57th St & 7th Ave to Brighton Beach 10 trains per hour pending analysis of H track capacity.
S - 21St/Queensbridge to Grand Street 6 trains per hour.
E, F, R & G no changes. These changes will be in effect for approximately 2 months prior to the opening of the 63rd St. connection.
It's the same plan they used from 1986-88. I told you so.
Any date for the switch yet?
Wouldn't this make a little more sense:
S - 57/6th to Grand
Q - 21st Queensbridge to Brighton Beach
Dn - 205st to 2ave
Then, every Manhattan terminal would only have to turn one route at a time.
They can't have one service terminating at 57th/7th and another running through to Queensbridge at the same time!
The S service will be on 6th Avenue and will not be plugged by 57th St/7th Ave terminal. (or have i misunderstood what you are saying?)
Actually, he's right, the Ds would be turning at 57th/7th, and the Q would have to go through. But then, how do they expect to run 6th ave express service with trains terminating at 34th?
They're NOT going to run any 6th Avenue express! That's the point, nothing going south of Grand, so no need for an express south of 34th.
wayne
That leaves the F as the only service south of 34th on 6th Av, while Broadway will have 3 expresses (BDQ) and 2 locals(NR). People are going to have to change their riding habits quickly when this goes into effect, expecially south of 23rd where the Broadway Line runs well to the east of Sixth Av.
People will take the F to Delancey, then the J/M/Z to Canal.
People will transfer from the Lex at 59th, 14th, and Canal, instead of 53rd and Bleecker (downtown).
7th ave customers will transfer at 42nd instead of 14th.
L riders will transfer at Union Sq, instead of 6th.
CPW riders will transfer at 34th (no kidding!).
8th ave riders will go to West 4th or Columbus cir., then to 34th/b'way.
Run the 57/7 train to Lex/63rd then.
How? The trains would block others coming in from Queensbridge. The other, 2nd stubway platforms behind the wall at Lex./63rd. are unusable as terminals (no way to cross over until you get to 57th/7th) and are basically unaccessable without the removal of the present wall seperating them.
Maybe there is something I am missing here. Will knocking down a wall cost $100,000,000? And putting in a stairway or connection to exit to street another $500,000,000? Use of this stub-end is going to be essential to take the best possible advantage of the 63rd St. connection if only one side of the MB is open.
I think the problem is that the queens-bound tracks (the track to Queensbridge and the stub track) and the downtown-bound tracks are on different levels. If a train terminates at the stub, how is it going to turn around and head back downtown?
Correct. The tracks do not continue beyond the station, and the nearest connecting switch is located just north of the 57th Street station, so it would not be practical to use only one level for service. Plus, as has been noted in another post, the unused half of the station is nothing but a shell - I've been there, it's impressive, but it would take a lot of money to complete, and that's just not justifiable at the present time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Please explain to me: Is there a switch beyond 57th-7th that would allow trains to reverse north/east of that station rather than having to so in the station? Also, would that allow for reversing trains without blocking through trains to Queensbridge?
Yes, there are switches between the express tracks north of the station. The 63rd St. shuttle used one of them to switch over to the southbound track in October of 1998 after wrong-railing back from Queensbridge. There are, or were, scissor switches between the express tracks south of the station as well.
There still are scissor switches south of the station, when the 60st tunnel was closed last time they ran all northbound trains into the southbound express track.
There is a trackway leading from the Queensbridge tracks to the local tracks north of the station. If tracks were put in, trains could reverse on the express while Queensbridge trains could enter on the local.
So this means then that by putting in a short section of tracks that it would be possible to reverse express trains just beyond 57th/7th while sending other expresses (that switch to local tracks north of 57th/7th) through to Queens. With what is scheduled to occur a year from now (flipping of MB service and opening of the 63rd St. connector) why don't they do that?
Then all trains -- from 63rd and from 60th -- will end up on the local tracks and will cause a mess.
The BMT track map of this site shows a switch just SE of the 63rd St./Lex Station which could allow for reversing of trains. Other than the possible use of that, all Broadway Exp. trains would have to go to Queens once the 63rd St. connector is in place, so as not to block the exp. tracks. Otherwise, the B would go to Astoria and both the D and Q would terminate at 57th/7th, as proposed for the month or two interim between switching bridge sides and opening of the connector. No use of the connector to the Broadway subway express tracks would be interesting in its own right. The connector would have no value in relieving congestion or providing more varied service to Queens Bld. riders. In others, the billion dollar boondoggle, surpassing all other dubious projects in the amount of money wasted!
How can this switch be used for reversing? The four 63rd street tracks are split on different levels, with the two eastbound tracks on one level, and the westbound tracks on the other level.
They just built some sort of concrete room on the northbound trackway. But otherwise, they should have thought of using it to get 63rd St tains around the 57th St. terminus.
V service will replace the current 6 ave/QueensBridge routing with its terminus at euther 2 ave or Church ave Bklyn
The 2nd Ave. side of both 63rd. St platforms is unfinished. It would cost millions to retrofit the station to make both platforms usable, basically for nothing. No passanger demand now exists to have 2 lines serving 63rd. St/Lexington Ave.
Not enough cars, and D service south of 34th is redundant if it's not going to Brooklyn, as all those people heading to Brooklyn will change to the Broadway D/Q. Plus, you can't use 57th/7th as a terminal and have thru service at the same time. The TA plan is the best, and simplest plan out there.
The Q sign is yellow, therfore it will run to Brooklyn via Broadway with the shuttle terminating at 6th Avenue.
Sign color is meaningless. But in order for a train to terminate at 57/7, it MUST run via B'way.
-Hank
It's too bad the B division doesn't have enough cars so that during the period the B/D tracks on the Manny B are closed they could run an experiment with either the Bn or Dn train and extend it past Sixth Ave./34th St. and out via the Sixth Ave. local track to Broadway-Brooklyn using the old K connection, and run either it or the J/Z as an express between Broadway-Brookyln and Marcy Ave.
By doing that on a temporary basis, the MTA could find out whether or not a resumption of K service would be viable when both sides of the bridge open in 2004.
That would have been a good idea if the bridge was lost permanently. The problem is that while BJ2 comes up between B2 &4, and could easily be connected to B4 (uptown Exp), BJ1 veers off of B4 to the right (the wall), and could not be connected to B3 (Grand St), unless they run together after B4 dips (but BJ1 probably dips with B4 and passes under it, so I doubt it is on the same level as B3 after that point, so a such a flying connection looks unlikely). Otherwise, this idea would require duouble switching (exp. to local, and then to BJ connection), which would interfere with the F.
In that case, you could run either the Bn and/or the Dn to Grand Street and use the shuttle train to Queensbridge through the Chrystie Street connection, moving it onto the local track at Rockefeller Center instead of onto the express track, the way the B and Q are set up now. That would avoid the track switching problems, though it would probable mean you would have to give the Shuttle a letter designation (K) since as a shuttle route it would now be about as long as the C train's route on Eighth Ave.
That would negate some of the advantage of the other plan, since most riders already know where the B and D go -- Sixth Ave. -- and might be more willing to use the service even if it was running on a strange line in Brooklyn. The advantage would be the shuttle/K could operate in eight car sets of R-40/42s out of the East New York yard, whereas any test service with the Bn or Dn trains would require some sort of swap-out of the R-68s in the Concourse yard for 60-foot trains that could be cut back to fit on the Broadway/Brooklyn and Canarsie line platforms.
The Dn can't terminate at 2 Avenue just as the E Train couldn't during the World Trade Center work. 2 Avenue cannot handle F Trains at tight headways and have D Trains switch in front of them.
Hmm, orange and blue, the city colors. A couple of points:
1) The overlap and terminal turns of the separate north and south services use up cars. So the Sea Beach and Concourse Lines get screwed, with a 10 minute wait on the Sea Beach and at the Concourse local stops.
2) Gonna be a whole lotta switching going on at 57th and 7th as the the Bs has to merge with the N and R, while leaving terminal room for the Ds and Q. Sounds like a potential problem, leading to a potential loss of service.
Questions:
You mention the schedule will be in effect for two months before 63rd St opens. Does that mean there will be a separate schedule when 63rd St opens? If so (given that these projects haven't exactly advanced like clockwork as it is) and chance the changes could be synchronized to one change?
You mention the schedule will be in effect for two months before 63rd St opens. Does that mean there will be a separate schedule when 63rd St opens? If so (given that these projects haven't exactly advanced like clockwork as it is) and chance the changes could be synchronized to one change?
The plan calls for the TA to turn over the A-B tracks in June 2001. This depends on signal and power testing properly once the DOT turns the H tracks back over to the TA. Assuming that the June 2001 goes as planned, the TA plans to open 63rd St. in August 2001. Of course the A-B track turnover could be delayed but then again so could the 63rd St. connection be delayed. Likely, the DOT is working with contractors on the bridge who also have early completion incentives built into their contract. Delay them and they won't be happy campers.
What is the tentative plan for the period after the 63rd connector opens?
The 6th Avenue shuttle would become the new V service (extended through the connection into Queens) Not sure if it would be extended into Brooklyn.
Why not have for those two months *gasp* both sides of the bridge running with trains? Dare I say it... normal service?
Q - 21st Queensbridge - Bridge - Brighton Beach
N - Astoria - Bridge - Sea Beach
B - 145 / Bedford Pk - Bridge - West End
D - 205 - Bridge - Brighton Line
(Why not have for those two months *gasp* both sides of the bridge running with trains? Dare I say it... normal service? )
After 18 years, the pols have gotten the people of Brooklyn used to the idea that inferior service IS normal. I don't know why those transit reports don't say:
"As a result of half of the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge being closed for reconstruction, riders on the B, D, M, N, Q and R train in Brooklyn face crowding and 5 to 10 minute delays in both directions. Please make alternative arrangements -- like moving to New Jersey."
LOL
If trains are on both sides of the bridge at once it would probably fall into the water.
Everytime I go over the Manny B I hate it. It is so slow. Cars race by us. I think a new tunnel would be the answer to this problem. It would be four tracks, with one set connecting to Chrystie street and the other to Broadway express. This is the only answer to this age old problem that makes perfect sense. Of course corrupt politicians, red tape, and NIMBY's would get in the way.
With all the money poured into that crumbling bridge a tunnel could have been almost complete by now.
It'll be interesting if the bridge and the tunnel beneath the bridge can exist at the same time. Some trains will go via bridge while others go via tunnel.
A tunnel would most likely serve the Broadway Line since there is room to excavate east of Canal without much more disruption than exists now (remember that the Broadway Line used to connect to the north tracks. Connecting Chrystie St. to a tunnel would be more difficult since both the grade and alignment of the subway would have to change. A connection from the Rutgers Tunnel to Dekalb would be a problem since the express and local services would have to combine, causing delays between 2nd Av. and Jay St. Either tunnel routing would require much disruption on the Brooklyn side where there are numerous existing tunnels to work around.
Automobiles don't have grade timers - just an occasional cop with a radar gun. :(
Trains ran on both sides of the bridge at once briefly in 1990, and last I checked the bridge hadn't fallen.
[Trains ran on both sides of the bridge at once briefly in 1990, and last I checked the bridge hadn't fallen.]
Of course, that's something which can change at any time :-)
It don't think it realistic to attempt to turn around 20 tph (57th/7th D+Q) without encountering considerable delays. Wouldn't it be possible to send the D to 63rd/Lex. and the Q to 21st-Queensbridge?
It don't think it realistic to attempt to turn around 20 tph (57th/7th D+Q) without encountering considerable delays. Wouldn't it be possible to send the D to 63rd/Lex. and the Q to 21st-Queensbridge?
Three minute headway? It used to be done, no problem. When all three expresses (Brighton/Sea Beach/West End) ended at Times Square, they operated 30 tph, relaying the trains between 42nd and 57th.
(Three minute headway? It used to be done, no problem. When all three expresses (Brighton/Sea Beach/West End) ended at Times Square, they operated 30 tph, relaying the trains between 42nd and 57th).
But how about the proposal to merge one of those expresses with the two locals? Sounds like the timing has to be right, or a delay getting the Bs train (intersting name) over to the local track might back up the whole line.
Bs train (intersting name)
Actually, thats what I've heard several residents call that weekend Queensbridge shuttle to 57th/7th. I have heard several times on the platform variations of this statement, "Damn! We gotta take that BS again!" or "We have to put up with this BS every weekend!" or "Why isn't this BS on the map?"
To your question, even on the Sunday G.O.s where the F had to switch into the local before 57th traffic problems occurred, it was so bad that a few ended up on the 57st express tracks and had to switch after, which caused the BS to be late for the rest of the day.
I don't know, why didn't it pursue a BA?
(Three minute headway? It used to be done, no problem. When all three expresses (Brighton/Sea Beach/West End) ended at Times Square, they operated 30 tph, relaying the trains between 42nd and 57th).
But how about the proposal to merge one of those expresses with the two locals? Sounds like the timing has to be right, or a delay getting the Bs train (intersting name) over to the local track might back up the whole line.
There's still a precedent. Brighton Expresses were extended to 57th Street before the 60th Street tunnel connection was opened.
So you had West End and Sea Beach Expresses terminating at Times Square, and Brighton Expresses crossed to the local between 34th and 42nd, made 42nd and 49th on the local track, then switched to the express to end at 57th.
In the course of this, they had to merge and run with Brighton and 4th Avenue Locals.
All these services ran on 6 minute headways.
For those who can visualize this better with letters, these were analogous to N and T bridge expresses to Times Square, Q bridge express to 34-local to 57th, RR and QT tunnel locals to Astoria.
It worked fine from 86-88. B trains coming in from Queens crossed over to the express tracks south of Times Sq, stopping at 49th St.
Are you telling me that when the Sea Beach terminated at Times Square back in the 40's and early 50's, they used to go to 57th Street before they returned to 42nd Street? That's two stations away, not one. If it is true, a long time question of mine has finally been answered. The fact is none of those three express trains were waiting for us when we used to get to Times Square. They would emerge from the tunnel. I guess they had to go past 42nd Street in order to reverse course. Let me know on that. It would clear up another mystery among many that you guys have solved for me the past year.
I'm saying that Sea Beach/West End/Brighton Expresses dropped their loads northbound at Times Square on the northbound platform and replayed north of Times Square on both tracks, clearing switches north of the station. The layup was roughly opposite 49th Street station, IIRC. Then then returned south to enter Times Square on the southbound express platform to pick up their loads.
It was a neat operation. The expresses were relayed both north and south out of Times Square by a bell and buzzer system. I believe a bell rang to send a train north to the relay tracks and a buzzer sent them south from Times Square.
Or it may have been the other way around. It's been almost half a century, after all--but it is a firsthand memory. On the southbound express track they did a little load balancing by having each of the Sea Beach, Brighton and West End expresses stop at a slightly different position on the platform.
And they had stopping marks for each of those routes.
Here in Denver, you can tell where the doors will be when a light rail train arrives by looking for the word "DOOR" in yellow letters facing the track. Since the first set of doors always aligns with the ADA access ramps, it's pretty reliable.
There's no way to turn a train between 57th St and 21st St that won't delay service. The only reason for the S shuttle on 6th Ave is for service to Grand St and 57th/6th.
-Hank
Would it not make sense to run the Ds via the tunnel and the N via the bridge? That would be almost the same as before the Christie St. connection:
Q Broadway/Brighton Express - via Bridge
QT(D) Broadway/Brighton Local - via Tunnel
N Astoria/Broadway/Sea Beach Express - via Bridge
T(B) Astoria/Broadway/West End Express - via Bridge
That would also eliminate a potential bottleneck at the crossover (where the N crosses from the 4th Ave Exp. tracks to the local) north of Pacific.
This is not my plan. This was distributed as the likely routes so that required plans for supporting the service could be made. For the mostpart, ideas are like armpits. Everyone's got them and they all stink. I'm sure that there are a dozen alternate plans that can be proposed and would provide some improvement but no plan is perfect and no plan will meet every service need. Keep in mind that when developing a schedule, you have other considerations like crew work programs. I'm quite sure that the people who developed this schedule had considered other possibilities.
Today, in part 5 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions About the Subway, the question is: How should married pairs of cars be numbered. There are bsically 4 schools of thought on the issue and this also applies to multi-car trainsets.
A) The parried pair is considered to be one single unit and both 1/2's are given the same number.
B) Each part of the set is considered a completely seperate unit and is given a seperate number.
C) The first unit is given a number while the other cars are given #a, #b, #c etc.
D) The first unit is given a number with a subscript a and the others follow suit #b, #c, #d etc.
Jersey Mike:
Maybe the married pairs can be numbered as follows. (e.g.) 7000A & 7000B or like the older married pair subway cars (e.g.) 5060 & 5061.
BMTJeff
There are a couple of ways that married pairs get numbered:
a) Traditional NYCT way - even-odd with even being one less than odd.
b) LIRR MU way - odd-even with odd being one less than even
c) PATH Class "K" way - cars in same series, not mated in any order.
So I guess I'd go with "B".
wayne
Are married pairs married forever, or only for the duration (what ever that may be). Because, depending upon out-shopping, one member of one pair could be paired with different member of another pair, or replace or be replaced by an usable member of an unusable pair.
Or maybe they just have wife swapping for the fun of it or to confuse railfans.
PATCO numbers them odd/even and shops them together. Their shop currently has a Budd pair getting a major rebuild and a Vickers pair getting trucks changed. Both pairs still have drawbars/hoses/cables connected.
Bob
Correction: I just looked at my video from the PATCO shop this morning; the Budd pair in for major rebuild has drawbar/cables/hoses removed, but the cars haven't been moved from their positions when they were still connected. They will be reconnected to each other, staying married to each other for life.
Bob
Not necessarily - just look at the 25 mismated R32 pairs we have running around. The first one (3669/3628) occurred as the result of a wreck. Then came the GOH. While this was going on, it was found out that some cars in a pair needed more work than their respective mates, and would take longer to GOH. SO what did they do? If a "husband" (even) was ready and its "wife" (odd) wasn't (OR VICE VERSA) -AND- another pair had the opposite condition ("wife" ready, "husband" not), the "husband" of the FIRST pair was mated with the "wife" of the SECOND pair, and that resulted in an ODD COUPLE.
Most of the time when this happens it is the result of a car going to scrap prematurely due to wreck, fire etc. and its mate being widowed.
The GOH mismating occurred only with the R32s.
wayne
You forgot to explain 3348.
-Hank
Oh, THAT!
Allow me to do so-
#3348 is a gender-challenged R32, formerly "ODD" #3659. It was renumbered to EVEN (and converted to such) due to the loss of #3620 to frame damage, leaving the fleet short one EVEN car. #3620's fate was still being debated - rather than give #3659 the number #3620, they gave it a number outside the fleet - on the low side - #3348.
It is mated to #3549. They are Phase I rebuilds.
wayne
Wayne;
You have just breeched the TA's "Don't ask, don't tell" policy concerning car #3348 :-)
Just the way they hve been for the past 40 years: even---odd.
As many of you know many different industries have their own units of measure. Chords (of wood), US printers points and international cable legnths are examples of this. I was wondering if there are any special units of measure used by railroaders or railfans that are easier than using the standard english units.
I would also like to declare the basic railraod units. For example should the basic unit of legnth be a "block" or a "car" (or even a "platform"). The unit of "delay" could be the "hold" (defined by the average time a door is held open by passengers). Other units of delay could be the "trackfire" and the "jumper". The basic unit of mass could take the name of any subway car as could the basic unit of force. of course the unit of currency would be the "token".
Finally I need to know what a large group of railfans would be refered to as. Currently I just call them a 'mess".
[For example should the basic unit of legnth be a "block" or a "car"]
I think the Broad Street Subway signals are numbered something like that; each number is 67', or the length of one subway car, (ex. the signals at the south end of North Philadelphia are numbered [track #] B 272, and the north end is [tract #] B 282, approx. 10 cars longer.
Within the last few weeks i have noticed a new feature on the 3rd rail on the above ground portions of PATCO. In the 2 interlockings I pass on my trip from Haddonfield into Philly on the 3rd rail next to the part where the 1st and 2nd rail are engaged in a switch (about from the points to the frog) the third rail cover has been painted orange and some sort of matt (prsumably insulative) have been lain over the 3rd rail. At these interlockings the 3rd rail continues on along the non-diverging track, uninterurped. Can anybody tell me the reason for this.
Third Rail exposed!
5av. Station on the IRT 7 line.
SF1/9
Say, while we are on this subject,
did the original plans for the original NYC subway inlude covered or uncovered third rail. I would guess that if there was to be a coordination of IRT services, they would have opted for the uncovered third rail. The construction pix show uncovered.
If so, when and how was the decision reached to install covered third rail. It must have been the first installation of such in the world, or was it a tie with the LIRR.
The uncovered third rail on the first installation on the B&O in 1889 or so remained that way until it was discarded in the late 40s.
Say, while we are on this subject, did the original plans for the original NYC subway inlude covered or uncovered third rail. I would guess that if there was to be a coordination of IRTs services, they would have opted for the uncovered third rail. The construction pix show uncovered.
The original plans called for covered third rail.
The Manhattan (& Brooklyn) els used exposed third rail with
gravity shoes (still in use in Chicago). It just so happened that
the Interborough company leased the Manhattan els in 1900, but
the new IRT subway was certainly a
cutting-edge deployment and the new covered style of third rail
with spring-loaded plow shoe was used. There was a certain amount
of design sharing with the Pennsy which explains why the LIRR's
ca. 1908 electrification project used similar third rail (and also
similar length cars -- the MP41s).
As the picture on one of the messages in this whole thread shows, the original 1904 IRT subway used 75 lb. third rail. What type of third rail was that? (In the context of the fact that when the IND first opened for business in 1932, that railroad used 150 lb. “NMC” rail [named after old BRT subsidiary the New York Municipal Railway Corporation], which is now used on most N.Y.C. Subway trackage, except for certain sections of the IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue line [pray tell, which 150 lb. third-rail was used before being replaced with NMC?] and the Steinway tubes of the IRT Flushing line [150 lb. “umbrella”-type third-rail].)
Oh, no one actually answered your question. OK, at turnouts
and crossovers the third rail is generally engineered to be on
the outside where it can run interrupted. This way there isn't
a pesky third rail gap going over the switch. Sometimes this
isn't possible and there are short lengths of third rail inside
the divergent section as a booster.
If there is a rubber mat over the rail perhaps track work is
in progress there?
It seems to be a perminent feature in that they have painted the covers orange instead of white. They may be there so that diverging trains won't cause arcs as their shoes slowly turn away from the rail.
I was listening to WINS-AM 1010 this morning and found out that the T.O. tested positive for cocaine use and is expected to be dismissed from his position. He worked for the T.A. for 23 years and did not test positive for drug usage during ten prior tests beginning in 1991. I wonder if this will result in a crackdown upon drug usage which will result in increased drug testing particularly at random.
BMTJeff
>>> the T.O. tested positive for cocaine use <<<
Although the T/A tested positive for cocaine, it does not appear that cocaine usage was the cause of the accident. It is hard to see how a T/O's actions could cause the 3rd car of a slow moving train to derail. It seems that when a T/O is found responsible for an accident, the drug of choice is alcohol. Is anyone aware of an accident the was caused by the use of any drug other than alcohol?
I support drug testing after an accident, and I hope this T/O had a vested pension. But random drug testing is an abomination that should be resisted by unions, workers and civil libertarians everywhere.
It is hard to conceive of a drug that would impair a worker's performance enough to cause a safety problem and not be detected by fellow workers and supervisors.
[Is anyone aware of an accident the was caused by the use of any drug other than alcohol?]
The only one I've ever heard of was the Conrail-Amtrak collision in Maryland some years back. Apparently, the Conrail engineer tested postive for pot, although I don't know if that was the main cause of the accident. As far as the NYC subway is concerned, IIRC the *only* accident involving either drugs or alcohol was the Union Square crash in 1991. And even that's not entirely clear cut, as Robert Ray, the T/O, might have been telling the truth when he said that he got drunk after the accident, to help deal with the shock of what had happened (he wasn't tested until several hours had elapsed). Lack of sleep might have been the reason for his erratic train operation before the crash.
"I support drug testing after an accident, and I hope this T/O had a vested pension. But random drug testing is an abomination that should be resisted by unions, workers and civil libertarians everywhere."
Oh yes, I know I have a drug test next week, so if I'm not stupid, I better not smoke my pot until after the test.
Tom this gives me the opportunity to share my BN experience. I hired on the BN as brakeman in l978 and it was common knowledge that a good portion of conductors and brakemen were pot smokers and many did it on duty. There were a few engineers known for that too. But in addition to this it was common practice for even more of the crewmen to be intoxicated when reporting for duty, some even had a couple more after they took their call. Finally in l980 or so it came to a head after a collision in Newcastle, Wyoming took the lives of I think 5 crew members. That was what expedited the moves to get drug testing, both random and after an accident, of operating personnel. I think that Conrail-Amtrak crash in Maryland was about the same time? We didn't have much of it on Montana Rail Link, but a very good friend of mine couldn't control himself and got a warning the first time, the second time he got fired. He was like a little brother to me but I can't sympathize with the situation. Sadly, in the late 70's period even the bosses knew about it but nobody evr did anything until a disaster occurred.
>>> in the late 70's period even the bosses knew about it but nobody evr did anything until a disaster occurred. <<<
Ed;
Opposition to random drug testing does not imply opposition to any workplace testing. For employees in positions where public safety is concerned, testing on suspicion of drug use is appropriate. I understand that it is difficult for a supervisor to point to any individual and say "you look like you need a drug test", and that is why management likes to hide behind random drug testing.
Tom
Management doesn't hide behind random drug testing! Managers and supervisors have an affirmative obligation to have any employee who appears unfit for duty, tested for drugs and/or alcohol. Random Drug testing is mandated by the FTA and requires that a minimum of 10% of all employees in safety sensative titles be randomly tested annually. Not enough as far as i am concerned. BTW The testing procedures for random testing are spelled out in the CFR.
Train Dude;
My comment about management was in the context of a response to Ed about his BN experience. The fact the FTA requires random drug testing does not make it right. Government mandated random testing is more a result of the "War on Drugs" than valid safety considerations.
The drug fighters would like to have as many people as possible subject to random testing to cut down on demand for drugs and have been behind the push for private employers to do drug screening for employment regardless of the job. If they could get away with it they would try to get all automobile drivers subject to random sampling with the rationale that it would improve road safety. The voting public would not stand for that.
The philosophical opposition to random drug testing is that goes completely against the grain of our belief in "innocent until proven guilty." The testee, without even the slightest hint of wrongdoing is required to prove that he is innocent of a crime. The practical opposition is based on the fact the there are bound to be some false positives which will ruin lives.
Assuming tests are improving to cut down on false positives, if you take the view that a non drug user has nothing to fear so he should not object to random testing, then logically if you are a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide, you would have no objection to police searching your residence for evidence of a crime at any time they wanted to without probable cause. Not many of us would agree to that.
A step in that direction is the use of random road blocks to detect inebriated drivers. The courts have upheld them on the basis of safety, and they started out with just a brief stop with an officer shining a light in the driver's eyes and sniffing for alcohol. Now some jurisdictions have used road blocks to see if the driver and passengers are wearing seat belts and children are in car seats, and just whether drivers have valid licenses without regard to the sobriety of the driver.
Tom
"The philosophical opposition to random drug testing is that goes completely against the grain of our belief in "innocent until proven guilty." The testee, without even the slightest hint of wrongdoing is
required to prove that he is innocent of a crime."
You can look at this in another way. By having random drug test it discurages drivers/operators from smoking grass (recreational) or drinking on the job. As a "tester" I've seen folks caught in the random drug test ... they all have learned their lesson & talk it up amoung themselves which further discourages such use. On the alcohol side, a couple of serious Amtrak accidents were what created the law in the first place. Years ago many operators/drivers would have a few beers with lunch, but no more. Mangement has been effected too, i.e. anyone who supervises a operator/driver is part of the random test pool, so no more birthday parties at the local bar.
On the non-random side, when a accident occurs the operator/drive has to be tested, period !
So you can say what you want about random drug tests, but the PUBLIC is better served because of them. Also know that they are a pain for those that have to do the testing just as they are for the tested.
Disclaimer: This is NOT a official statement by anyone in the MTA, TA or nycDOT ... just a personal comment.
Mr t__:^)
You make some good points Tom, and many of them were debated in Congress before these laws were enacted. The final decision was that any person accepting a safety sensitive position gives implied consent to testing (both post accident and random.)
CFR 219.11 governing testing on FRA regulated railroads reads as follows:
"Any employee who performs covered service for a railroad shall be deemed to have consented to testing as required in subparts B,C,D,and G of this part;and consent is implied by performance of such service."
Fitz;
I understand what you are saying, and I realize random drug testing is law, I don't think every law is necessarily a good one. Nor does the fact that the Supreme Court upholds a law makes it a good one. In the transit area Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) comes to mind.
"Implied consent" is just a fancy way to say lets get around the constitution. For instance every Federal building and courthouse has a sign saying that by entering you are consenting to the search of your person and belongings. Some consent! try to tell the IRS or a federal judge when you receive a summons to appear that it will have to be some other place because you do not wish to waive your constitutional right to be free of a search without a warrant or probable cause.
Tom
You raise an interesting argument for cases where the implied consent derives from an activity you are compelled to engage in. It is certainly true that the courts' views of the law change over time. Perhaps some of these "voluntary" searches will be prohibited in the future.
But no one is forced to drive a bus or operate a train.
>>> Perhaps some of these "voluntary" searches will be prohibited in the future. <<<
KMA;
This is not likely. If a search is conducted and nothing is found, the subject goes on his way with only a minor inconvenience and therefore is not going to take the trouble to sue.
If the person is found with something illegal and arrested, if it is minor contraband, some kind of deal will be made with the prosecutor to get a suspended sentence, and again the search will not be challenged. If it is a major charge such as espionage or having a bomb, the person will be seen as a "bad" guy, judges will be reluctant to let him go on a technicality, and be inclined to find there was probable cause for the search, which would remove the question of implied consent, or uphold the "implied consent" and say if the defendant did not object to when he entered the building he cannot object to it now.
Since in practice, searches (other than screening upon entering) are not conducted without at least a suspicion of wrongdoing there is no civil liberties group like the ACLU that has this as a priority.
Tom
In positions where public safety is concerned, like operating a subway train, random drug testing is appropriate, necessary and legal. If some transit workers have problems with getting tested, I'd suggest they look into other, less dangerous occupations.
Is anyone aware of an accident the was caused by the use of any drug other than alcohol?
Several years ago a locomotive engineer ran a red signal, pulled his train onto an AMTRAK main line and was hit by a speeding AMTRAK train. He was admittedly high on pot at the time and is now doing time for manslaughter.
I support drug testing after an accident, and I hope this T/O had a vested pension. But random drug testing is an abomination that should be resisted by unions, workers and civil libertarians everywhere.
This person was caught 'dirty' after incident testing. So what is your point? Incident testing is good to help fix blame but does nothing to prevent accidents. What is wrong with random testng? Perhaps if this operator had been tested the day before, he'd have been removed from service and the accident may never have occurred.
Now, you are going to say how did the cocaine play a role in the accident? Perhaps it did and perhaps it didn't. the investigation is ongoing. But if it was a car defect, perhaps he would have felt or heard something unusual. if it were a track defect, perhaps in a better frame of mind, he would have spotted it in time to avoid the incident.
I just think, Tom, your sympathies lie in the wrong place on this issue.
I am opposed to drug testing because many of the tests used today can detect drug use for more than 30 days. How about if the T/O in question used cocaine 29 days ago while on vacation? This is hypothetical of course, but how would that effect his judgement then? I do feel drug testing is a invasion of privacy but nobody is telling you to work for NYC transit either.
Anyway 51 years of age is too old to be using cocaine. Grow up!!!
We had an accident on the Light Rail that severely damaged the track, trolley wire and part of the BWI Airport sturcture. The operator, a 25 year veteran, tested positive for cocaine and a powerful prescription pain reliver. He previously tested positive for cocaine in 1991 and was suspended, unterwent detox (apperently not 100% successful) and returned to work.
As to "using cocaine 29 days ago while on vacation". Last time I looked, cocaine was illegal in the US, and every state in the Union.
As to random testing, I'll lay you even odds that nobody that ever used any form of illegal drug ever admited it without some form of coertion. That's why there's random testing. Maybe I'm extreme, but I feel that where you literally have the lives of people in the palm of your hand, the should be no "second chance".
(Soapbox mode: OFF)
Drug use is illegal in the United States but my point is, does drug use in a time period ahead of an accident mean that the drug was the cause of the accident?
Perhaps not. If a person should choose to use or abuse substances that can alter judgement and performance, that alone is an example of very bad judgement. While many substances are use in medical treatment of a variety illness, to use for the side effects, to give up control doesn't stand well for a person who at sometime will be in a position of responsibility. Privacy is absolutly no excuse for illegal substance abuse.
OTOH test must also be positive to prevent a false positive result.
I happen to like poppy seed pastry, I would fail some screening. I don't abuse poppy pastry under current guide lines , so I'm legal.
Testing and re-testing for the protection of all.
avid
I happen to like poppy seed pastry...
You and me both, especially hamentaschen at Purim. Good thing my job doesn't require such testing!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Before we try and convict the T/O in the court of public opinion,
does the positive on the drug test mean he was under the influence
at the time of the accident, or simply that he used a cocaine-based
drug at some time in the few days before?
i just noticed in the list of transit related headlines that david has,that in today's daily news there was a story saying that the train operator who tested positive for cocaine was asking for a second test of his urine... from what i read of this man's career, he has been tested several times over the last 9 years and the tests were negative... there were no reports of him operating the train erratically... and neighbors claimed that he didn't seem to be that kind of person... tests do yield false positives, and sometimes a person can be taking a medication that will produce a positive result... i agree with jeff h. that this man should not be tried in public... the mta has procedures as does the judicial system should it be necessary...
i would hope for everyone's sake, that an error in the testing occurred...
Of course Ta would have to say the Motorman was on drugs to cover up poorly maintained equipment. So far it was proven the train was operated at the correct speed for the area. Has anyone heard of a derailment at Dyre Avenue not too long ago? supposedly from what I've been told the WHEEL fell off a car across the switches either entering/leaving the station. HMM how come this never made the news? was this T/O on drugs? give me a break
As for the Dekalb Avenue derailment I really don't hear people singing "Driving that train high on Cocaine" I think the TA Brass fabricated the drug results, Why wasn't a drug test conducted by another lab since the intitial test was positive?
I think it's important to note that many drugs remain in the system for quite some time after actual use occurs. This means the T/O quite possibly was not high at the time, but rather several days earilier, probably not while operating a train.
It still may put people at risk though. I remember riding the "A" to Far Rockaway earlier this month. Just after Rockaway Blvd when there is that sharp curve onto the Rockaway line there were flags up but the T/O never saw them, and sped through and some track workers got the scare of their life when our R38 came through without warning. They literally ran for their lives! I almost though we were going to hit someone that day.
Being a track worker is one dangerous job. I still wonder if that T/O was on drugs. Is there still a sleep deprivation problem?
If I was on that train I would have pulled the cord. I wouldn't say that the T/O was on any kind of drug but simply not paying attention. I was a Trackmen before becoming a T/O. Luckly I never really had any problems with trains running a the gang. On the T/O side I seen gangs with improper flagging.
I have a feeling if I pulled the cord passengers would have been bitching that we stopped and I would have had a tough crowd to fight.
Isn't the conductor supposed to watch out for improper operation?
It's pretty bad when you have to decide in a matter of seconds whether the train may hit someone or not and pull the cord.
The train was pretty crowded and I knew if I pulled that cord I would've been blamed by everyone, and I'd have a T/O after me.
Anyone else want to comment on what they would've done in my situation. I kinda now feel guily for not pulling the brake because someone might have gotten hurt.
Isn't the conductor supposed to watch out for improper operation?
Yeah, the view is great from the middle of the train.
I kinda now feel guily for not pulling the brake because someone might have gotten hurt.
Don't feel too bad, in that situation I probably wouldn't have even thought of pulling the cord until after-the-fact. It's also hard to tell if that was a 'pull the cord' moment, you would've felt worse if you delayed a train and nothing happened (or would have happened), and your mind would twist your memory of the event so that it looks like, in retrospect, to be nothing out of the ordinary and you pulled it for no reason. Likewise, if something had happened and you didn't pull the break, your mind would make you believe you had more time to react, when you didn't.
The PATCO interchange with NJT's Atlantic City line in Lindenwold (subject of brief thread about a month ago) was last used when the Vickers carbodies were delivered in 1980. It is still in place and will be used again when PATCO embarks on a major tie replacement program (no date given). The tie-laden freight cars will go down the Shared Assets' (CR, PRSL, Reading) Clementon branch to Winslow Jct and back to Lindenwold on NJT (CR, PRSL, PRR). The branches are about one-half mile apart in Lindenwold/Stratford.
Bob
The question was raised a while back whether PATCO's original order of cars from Budd in 1978 was delivered via Reading/BSS at Fern Rock to PATCO at 8th & Market via the (subsequently removed) connection with the Ridge Ave spur.
The Reading Company picked up the cars at Budd's Red Lion plant, a couple at a time as they were released, and delivered them to PATCO in Lindenwold via PRSL. RDG had a couple hopper cars with standard coupler on one end and PATCO-compatible coupler on the other for the deliveries.
Bob
Speaking of which, yesterday I witnessed an Acela Express trainset being delivered via the elevated freight line in Philly.
Very odd to see the sleek Acela cars on the old elevated track that usually carries coal cars, etc. Equally odd was seeing Acela coupled to a freight loco and some flatbeds - which sounds just like the PATCO delivery.
It would be a good (expensive) idea. New Bridges that have new bridge technology. (Whatever that might be) Plus the bridges would look great (like the ones in England/Germany)
This is how the Bridge's would be like:
For the Manhattan Bridge
Upper Level: 8 Lanes for cars (3 lanes each directions)
Lower Level: 4 subway tracks (Q, D) (B, N), 2 car lanes (one on each side)
For the Willamsburg Bridge
Upper Level: 4 lanes to Manhattan w/ 1 Downtown Subway Track
Lower Level: 4 lanes to Brooklyn w/ 1 Brooklyn Bound Subway Track
This will end long term subway/road construction/restoration projects once and for all.
This would be Subway Service once both bridges are demolished then rebuilt. (Remember these are my ideas for the lines)
New Manhattan Bridge Service:
B: Bedford Park Blvd. to Coney Island (Rush Hours) other times 145 Street to Coney Island
D: 205 Street to Coney Island (Brighton Local) (All Times)
Q: 179 Street (Queens Blvd local/ 7th Avenue Express/ Brighton Express) to Brighton Beach. (All times)
N: Ditmars Avenue (7th Avenue Local) to Coney Island (All times)
New Willamsburg Bridge Service:
J: Jamaica Center to Canal Street (All times) (Nassau Street Express)
M: Metropolitan Avenue to 95 Street, Brooklyn
Z: Jamaica Center to Canal Street (Rush Hour Skip Stop Service w/ J) (Nassau Street Express)
What do you think?
About 15 years ago there was a proposal to build a new Williamsburg Bridge. The land acquisition costs and political considerations doomed it from the start. But it may have been a missed opportunity, as the new bridge would have supposedly been completed by 1999 or 2000. The bridge design you mention allowed the Germans to rebuild many of their spans quickly and on the cheap after WW2. But the design is not liked by all engineers. Any engineers out there care to elaborate?
The Manhattan Bridge should be torn down and replaced first. It's in worse shape and the train/road configuration is a structural nightmare.
The problem isn't the new bridge's cost (You could guarantee the new bridge would be a toll crossing like the Triborough), it's the approaches, unless the city was willing to go through a period where they completle tear down the Manny B and Willie B before building the new bridges on the exact same spots.
Building and land aquisition costs and street approach realignment for building next bridges next to the old ones before tearing the Manny B and Willie B down would be cost-prohibitive, not to mention the NIMBY lawsuits that would entail, while doing it the other way would knock out six of the B divisions 12 tracks running between Manhattan and Brooklyn for at least four years (though not necessiarily at the same time), as well as the two main truck routes between the boroughs.
The Manhattan Bridge should be torn down and replaced first. It's in worse shape and the train/road configuration is a structural nightmare.
The Manhattan is in reasonably good structural shape. The best solution is to build a tunnel for the subway tracks. The bridge does not have to be rebuilt - no approach rights of way need be condemned.
The structural problems with the Williamsburgh are within its towers. They are bending towards the center of the river. They will continue to bend, whether or not the train tracks are removed. New bridge towers will be built enclosing the existing towers and with minimum effect on existing traffic.
I agree. With the trains gone, the bridge wouldn't be under the extreme stress that's tearing it apart right now.
This should have been done 15 years ago, IMHO.
I myself like your idea, but I would like to see the service almost return back to normal before the Bridge change. Plus throw in a new K service from Canarsie.
Williamsburg Bridge Trains
K: Rockaway Parkway to Bedford Park (Bronx) All times. 8th Ave Lcl, Bronx Lcl, Brooklyn Exp(Marcy to ENY)
M: Metropolitan Ave to Coney Island. All Times. Nassau St Lcl.
J and Z: This service will remain the same
Manhattan Bridge Service
Q:179th Street to Brighton Beach. Queens Blvd Exp, Broadway Express, Brighton Express.
N: Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island. Brooklyn Exp, Broadway Lcl.
B: 168th Street Washington Heights to Coney Island All times. 6th Ave Express, Brooklyn Express.
D: Service will remain the same.
How about this service?
Frank D
No service from Canarsie can be run along the Bway express tracks.
I believe he said 'before the bridge change'.
Why not... when the K travels towards Manhattan, After leaving the Atlantic Ave station will arrive on the local platform of the Eastern Parkway Station. Once leaving switch tracks to the express, and run express to Marcy. Brooklyn Bound K train will switch to the local tracks just short of the Eastern Parkway Station. Proceed on the switch track to the Atlantic Ave Station and continue to Rockaway Parkway. This can work.
Frank D
But it would be faster in that case to run the J/Z as the express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Ave. while the K would serve as the local for those stops, and would be joined on the local tracks by the M at Myrtle Ave. THat would require the fewest crossover track switches, though you'd still be slowed by the M crossover at Myrtle going towards Metropolitan Ave. no matter what you do.
Besides requiring the least amount of switching, if the J/Z were to run express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy during rush hours it might actually get some people headed downtown from the Jamaica/Kew Gardens area to use those lines instead of taking the E/F. At the same time, L passengers from Rockaway Parkway to Atlantic Ave. already have a local ride into Manhattan -- adding K service from Rockaway Parkway into Manhattan might not be any faster, but it would give them a one-seat ride to Midtown, without having to transfer at Union Square or Sixth Ave.
The main problem would be the bottleneck at the Willie B. Even if you could get service up to 30 TPH across the bridge, that would still mean a maximum of one train every six minutes for the K and the M, and one every 12 minutes for the J and Z, which wouldn't make riders at the skip-stop stations between 121st St. and Eastern Parkway very happy. The MTA would have to think about eliminating skip-stop service in that area, or borrow a couple of trains at the expense of the M and K riders to cut down the time between trains at the skip stop stations. The other problem would be the MTA's planned singal system testing on the L with the R-143s mandates that line remain a stand-alone service until the new system is proven effective and added to the Broadway/Brooklyn el.
Not really, because the J/Z would still have to switch after leaving the Eastern Parkway Station. There isn't a switch track prior to the EP Station.
I always felt skip stop service on any line is not an answer if there are adequate express tracks. I would have the Z run express from EP to Marcy and have the J run local from EP to Marcy and riders from Jamaica will have a little faster service. That way there is no disruption in service between EP and Myrtle. The K like you said will provide an one seat ride to midtown and will help the underused 8th Ave local and 6th Ave local as well.
You hit it right on the head, eliminate the skip stop service. It really makes no sense anyway. I never did like skip stop. The odd train out of the group would be the Z and the M. The M does not have the high ridership, but the M train during peak hours can run every 5-6 minutes. The Z will only have to be worried about on weekdays and the J and Z can split time on 6 mins. Send a J then a Z every 3 mins. Then you will send a K every 6 mins. On weekends, everything is every 10 mins.
Frank D
Here's my big problem with skip/stop. I work nights and usually drive in to work. However when I am forced to work a day tour I usually take the LIRR to East NY and then take the Bway El from Bway Junction to Gates Av. I'm usually at Bway Junction from about 6:30 to 7:15 which is the transition period to rush hour skip/stop. The "Z" is the one that stops at Gates. When I get to Bway Junction I never know if skip/stop started yet. If a "Z" comes I'll of course take it. However if a "J" comes I never know if its a pre skip/stop train making all stops or a skip/stop which passes Gates. I usually have to stand in the middle of the platform so I could ask the conductor.
Another problem about skip/stop:Didn't the Transit Authority ever think that there might be some people who get on at a "J" or "1" station and are going to a "Z" or "9" station? There is no way to do that during rush hour.
You make excellent points. I hate the skip stop, once again because it has more negatives then positives.
Negative
1. Poor excuse for an express.
2. Unreliable (Sometimes skip/stop other time)
3. Confusing for passengers.
And the points you brought up.
Frank D
Would it even be economically feasible to tear down two bridges and rebuild them? Would tunnels be less expensive. Could the tracks be moved to the middle of the bridge for less wear and tear on the bridge itself? I don't know which is best but if the third alternative is possible it would seem to be less expensive.
Good question... I would think it would be cheaper and quicker for a tunnel, but getting the land acquition would be a pain. The bridge would take too much time and also cost more. Either way you can't go wrong. I would opt for a tunnel, because the speed of the train is faster vs a bridge.
ECU Pirate
The bridge is where the land acquisition is a problem. A tunnel requires hardly any acquisition.
In addition, the train will have a downgrade acceleration INTO the tunnel, and will then decelerate on the uphill climb. A bridge does the opposite. You can't speed up going uphill, and when it's time to go downhill, you have to go slow so you don't enter the station too fast.
Also, the existing bridges can go on handling traffic, and a tunnel could be moved to a better location. It seems to me that the most efficient place for the expresses to come in is around City Hall, because the lines can do multiple duty--taking passengers from Brooklyn to the Lower Manhattan Businss District via a short reverse hop, to the Midtown via an Express, while taking passengers from Queens, uptown Manhattan and the Bronx to the LMBD in the other direction.
06/26/2000
[Would it even be economically feasible to tear down two bridges and rebuild them?]
I wouldn't be a great idea to tear down and rebuild the Williamsburg since millions were just spent rebuilding the vehicular roadways and the replacing the subway tracks and steelwork.
Bill "Newkirk"
Good point Bill, but it still leaves the sticky situation of the Manny B. Is it even a possibility the tracks could be moved to the middle of the bridge and keep the bridge from further deterioirating?
06/27/2000
[Good point Bill, but it still leaves the sticky situation of the Manny B. Is it even a possibility the tracks could be moved to the middle of the bridge and keep the bridge from further deterioirating?]
I don't think there is enough room in the center for 4 tracks. Seems like another difficult yet expensive problem for the Manny B.
Bill "Newkirk"
The Williamsburg's only structural problem that isn't repaired with the deck work is the fact that there isn't enough strength from the anchorage cables to pull the bridge outward. That's because they decided to use towers to support the main span approaches instead of string support cables from the main cables like in the center of the bridge or every other bridge in the world.
Skip-stop service on the J/Z is designed to speed people from Queens into lower Manhattan, and it's probably the best you can do with no center express track. Yes, some people who want to go from Norwood Ave. to Halsey St in the AM are screwed, but these people are a minute percentage of J/Z riders.
They can transfer at Eastern Parkway.
Now what if someone wanted to go from Norwood to Alabama? Take a bus.
Grade crossing....not a good idea. Thats why the Canarsie/Nassau St train (#14, JJ, KK, etc.) has historically been the Broadway local.
For the Manhattan bridge, this would be better:
Upper Level: 8 Lanes (3 lanes non-rush direction, 5 in rush direction, 4 each direction middays, weekends, nights)
Lower Level:
Please note, I am not an artist.
You'd be duplicating the engineering flaw that doomed the Manhattan Bridge in the first place. If you're gonna put 4 tracks on a suspension bridge, they should all be placed in the middle, with four lanes of traffic on each side.
How about 4 suspension cables, two one the edges, two bordering the road between the sets of tracks.
And making three separate independent decks with them?
Doesn't matter, it's the twisting action that's caused by trains crossing on tracks placed near the edge of a bridge that causes the problems. Suspension bridges shouldn't really be used for trains at all. The present Manhattan bridge configuration is probably the worst possible layout. Didn't anyone who looked at the original design see that?
your idea is a noble idea but I think we'll see this first:
First Ave subway
Second Ave Subway
9th ave subway
10th ave subway
extension of 7, E and J lines in Queens
etc.
(in other words.. I dont think we'll see new bridges. I think that if new bridges were built they'd have no tracks but only traffic lanes and not even a pedestrian walkway.)
I wonder how long a span could be built using a steel arch a la Hell Gate Bridge.
You could span the East River with an arch bridge, but you need pretty good access to bedrock for the ends of the arch.
Bedrock abounds under NYC, so this shouldnt be a probem.
To make life much simpler, instead of remembering everyones freakin' web page address, those with Photo, Info & Roster sites have been placed into one directory.
The name is The New York City's Transit Family, it's a consortium of pages such as, Transit World, TransiTALK, Metrocard.cjb.net, TrAnSiTiNfO, TransiTrans, etc. Now you just have to go to this one directory and click on the link to a site that you want to see.
The URL is: www.nyctransitfamily.net
This will be the last web page announcement I make, so no one respond with nasty comments please.
Thanks
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
As per request, certain items were removed from the site to make it more user friendly (i.e music, fancy crap, GONE!)
Flxible Metro-B #3511
Get your cameras Ready! The D is coming to the World Trade Center! from 6/27/2000 to 6/30/2000 from 12:01AM to 5:00AM-begins on Tuesday (Monday overnight) ends Friday Morning.
Split D- trains service. 205-WTC from the North and
Stillwell to W4th (Upper Level).
Tomorrow from 8am to 4 pm- Franklin Shuttle runs on Brooklyn Bound side! (Hello, Malbone Street!)
PLAN AHEAD: next weekend (7/1/2000 to 7/3/2000) the 60th Street Tunnel will be closed. R ends at 42nd along with N. Queens N ends at Queensboro Plaza. No R in Queens. E and F will run local in both directions the entire weekend- overcrowding wil be common. Plan alternate route if possible.
Did anyone get shots today- D went via N line and N via D Line.
Not sure about tomorrow (I didn't spot any system notices), but today was also a good photo opportunity as well along the N/R in Manhattan and N at QB. The N was running through BOTHWAYS on the same UPPER-level track! I must admit I enjoyed the "plunge" into the tunnel from the upper-level of QB into Manhattan. And it ran express uptown in Manhattan! Both something we don't see very often if not at all.
It seems many serious system-wide trackwork is popping up all over the place all of a sudden recently, causing trains to run along unimaginable tracks. What's the deal?
D went via N line and N via D Line
Where!? I have to see this! I was on the Sea Beach yesterday, saw plenty Ns, no D (B yes, D no).
supposedly due to "emergency G.O." on 6/24/2000 per official Station Department list of G.O.s.
I just posted the info because I thought it would be of interest. I can not ride each line each day to verify if a G.O. actually works.
If it was emergency, than it was probably due to the fire on the Sea Beach that a few Ns went over the Brighton.
It was a G.O. working the midnite hours only. Think it had to do with repairing the damage from the derailment. The N stopped at Dekalb and went thru the seldom used passageway to the Brighton (which the M took when it went to Stillwell Brighton). The D's went thru the Dekalb bypass, stopped at Pacific, express to 36 St. then all stops on the Sea Beach to Stillwell. Thusly both lines were served, with the D and N swapping routes.
Per official AFC Bulletin. Wil; go one sale at 7am on 7/3/2000.
I am grouping stations to save space.
34/Herald Square-N,R,B,D,F,Q
28-N,R
Rector-N,R
Borough Hall/Court Street- N,R,4,5,6,2,3
125-A,B,C,D,1,9,4,5,6,2,3
86-B,C,4,5,6
59(Manhattan)-A,B,C,D,1,9
42/5TH AND 6TH-B,D,F,Q,7
Bowling Green-4,5
Wall-2,3
33-6
Bergen-2,3
NOTE: If I have not listed a line for that station the card should not be available at that specific location. (example- the card will not be available at 59 and Lex.).
Sometimes a card might be found at other locations but that is due to transfer of cards between booths by supervision.
06/24/2000
Another Kozmo.com Metrocard?
OH Nooooooooo !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I have detected two colors (shades) within the first batch, we'll have to look closely to see if there is anything unique about this new issue ... and yes Bill ... I agree oh no !
Mr t__:^)
Today I'm back in the website game (I used to run Metrocard.cjb.net, remember?) with my TV Captures page. Since I don't have a digital camera or scanner, I can't contribute pictures of the standard variety and there are many sites that do that already.
However, I can make still captures from TV, and that's what I'm going to do.
You WILL get sued.
-Hank
No, I'm not reprinting the whole thing. It's like quoting from a book.
The rules for broadcast are VERY different from the rules for print. That 'expressed written consent' thing they run for ball games? THey're not kidding. ANY use of the broadcast images or audio without permission is a copyright violation. That's also why even though Saturday's Tyson fight was over instantaneously, no other broadcaster could show footage. None of them had rights to it.
No, if you describe in any way (other than rebroadcast or image capture) what you see or hear (and that includes quoting the annoucers/actors/players) by any means, that's fair use.
-Hank
Pigs;
I tried your link without any success. It looks like you are almost back in the website game.
What are the TV captures going to be about?
Tom
I had them up, but they're gone now, I'll have to look into it. I don't know why.
I'll take the oppurtunity to review the copyright law. I might not bother to put it back anyway.
Hopefully it's server trouble that pulled it down, not action by the ISP. We'll see soon enough.
Are passengers permitted to change cars through the use of the storm doors on the J?
The doors are unlocked, nobody seems to care if people go between cars, but they still have those stickers on the doors.
How do the end doors on R-42s open, is it to the side like on the B-IVs, or does it pull out like on the M4s?
They slide sideways into the car end.
wayne
Nothing pulls out in the NY subway(except the 110B but the doors are locked.) The M-4 storm doors remind me of the LIRR and METRO-NORTH doors. Same shape window, similar door lock (except the MTA RRs have simple key holes, while M-4s have that round thing.)
Actually the door behind the cab door of the R44s and R46s have pull out doors.
Not really, the cab doors of the R46s slide to the side.
Now, I could be wrong about the R44s, but I believe the cab doors open in as opposed to out. If I'm wrong, then I apologize. But I am definately sure about the R46s.
I think he means the door to the next car, once inside the cab. He's right, I forgot about those.
Nooo. I meant, okay, picture this, you are operating a R44/R46. The door to go outside to the left of the console is what I'm talking about. Those doors are hinged. They don't slide.
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you meant the door between the cab and the rest of the car.
>>> but they still have those stickers on the doors <<<
What do the stickers say?
Way back to the days of the Hi-Vs there were signs saying riding between cars was prohibited. But that was never interpreted to mean you could not move from one car to another. It meant you could not remain on the end platforms between the cars. On hot days before A/C it was largely ignored when the cars were full.
Tom
Yes. Only 75' cars have locked ends ...
YES. There are grab handles outside of the storm doors EXCEPT on the B-ends of the R40M's, which mix in with the R42s on ALL of the Eastern Division lines. There, there is nothing to grab onto, hence I would advise NOT crossing until the train comes to a stop.
The way to tell without looking for the handle whether or not it is there is to look for the elongated storm-door window, which is present ONLy on the B Ends of the R40M cars (It is present on BOTH ends of the Slant R40s, found only on the "L")
wayne
Thanks Guys!
I know you could not pass between cars on the Standards on the J, but they were 67 foot long cars.
I left shortly after the R-16's were put in service on the J(15), but I think they kept the storm doors locked on them as well.
Likewise when the R27's were first delivered they locked doors between cars. Just because it was division [BMT] practice. Fortunately that situation changed.
Since you had experience operating the BMT standards, perhaps you might be able to answer this question: was it possible to manually open their storm doors? The standards had powered storm doors; AFAIK they were the only cars in New York to have this feature. Judging from the fact that I remember seeing a 2x6 wedged between the door handle and opposite side a few times to hold it shut, I would venture to guess that they could be opened manually.
I recall one series of Standards that had a valve under the two person seat cushion on the opposite side of the car from the motorman's cab.
Press the button on the top of the valve and the door would slide open (only the one door). Press the button again and the door would slide closed. This did not affect operation of the train!
I can't remember which series this was however. I think that it was the lower numbered Standards like the 2000's 2100's or 2200's.
Perhaps someone like Ed D or Jeff H can substantiate this!
Since Karl has brought up that feature I almost forgot about I"ll confirm its existence, but can't remember it being limited to any one series of the AB's. To answer Steve's question I'd say under normal circumstances those doors couldn't be opened manually. Does anybody remember two little holes between the center doors about one or two feet from floor level? Crews were issued a plunger key that would open those doors when you pushed it in the opening hole. A sardine can opener [no pun intended] could substitute for the key. Just think, railfans with a little savvy could have done it!
Thanks Ed! I felt that the valve was present in only certain cars because I recall looking for it on several occasions, and it was not there. I thus assumed that it was only on some of the Standards.
I remember riding a 5 train (Redbird) to the Bronx, oh, about eight or nine years ago, in the first car. A track worker got on the train at, IIRC, 125th; before the next stop, the T/O stopped the train, lifted up the seat abutting the cab, and flipped a switch to open the single closest door to let the track worker out. (For the life of me, I can't remember why I was going to the Bronx -- it's never been a frequent destination for me -- but I was.)
1. Run trains via Rutgers, build connection to DeKalb.
2. Run trains via new connection to Nassau st., then via Montague. They've already got one for the Willy B! (BTW, couldn't they have trains run via that connection, then reverse down to Nassau st?)
(1. Run trains via Rutgers, build connection to DeKalb.
2. Run trains via new connection to Nassau st., then via Montague. They've already got
one for the Willy B! (BTW, couldn't they have trains run via that connection, then reverse
down to Nassau st?) )
That was my final proposal to limit Brooklyn's dependence on the Manhattan Bridge entirely. With those two connections, the TA could run an excellent NON-RUSH-HOUR network without using the Manhattan Bridge at all, reducing the weekly traffic on the bridge by 75-80 percent.
Ie. Base service F, D, Q through the Rutgers (the D would switch to the express track at W 4th), N, R, and B through the Montigue, with the B going onto the 6th Avenue express via Grand Street. All stations open, 24/7. During rush hours, the N and D would switch to the H and A/B tracks of the bridge, respectively.
With the bridge tracks in use just 25 hours a week, there would be plety of time for maintenace.
I was told it was a good idea, and it might be possible -- after 2020. But the concept never left the Dept. of City Planning.
[I was told it was a good idea, and it might be possible -- after 2020.]
The year is 2550. Larry Littlefield Clone 01101, returning from his trip to Mars, takes the new $1.5 trillion Spaceplane from Giuliani Spaceport to the other side of Giuliani Spaceport and catches a J, a fortunate occurrence given that service has been reduced to once every six months. As he crosses the river, he gauges the progress of the unfinished reparirs on the Manhattan Bridge. A painfully strong platform robot pushes him onto a packed Lexington Avenue express, and he gets off at 42nd Street and walks East to the United Universe, wondering if they'll actually build the Second Avenue Subway this time around . . .
As a matter of fact, that reverse maneuver was used in 1982 by rerouted D trains.
Thanks to concurrent G.O.s on the N and B, the Sea Beach had express service in both directions between CI and Kings Hwy (CI Bound N, Manhattan bound B), and in the Manhattan bound direction (B) all the way to 59th. I rode an R-40slant B up the express track, but was cheated out of a fast run by three things:
1. An OOS B train (R68a) had just been pulled into the very start of the express track, so we had to go express on the local to Kings Hwy. The switch we went over was covered in rust, I had to have been on the first train over it in over a year.
2. At 8th ave, even though we got to the signal first, the N we had worked so hard to pass was given the line-up.
3. A fire on the freight tracks near the portal made the T/O have to stop ON THE SWITCH and alert the command CTR. An N train approaching from the opposite direction went right by, and it was much closer to the source for the fire. I thought the TO was waiting for a train to block the smoke enough for him to see, but he didn't start until about 5 minutes after, all the while blocking an N from proceeding.
BTW, the N that we passed that we were forced to wait for to go into the tunnel was waiting at Pacific for us.
Henry: For the life of me I still cannot fathom why my Sea Beach has to travel local when it does have usable express tracks for most of the run. If they are worried about a bottleneck at Coney Island, they could terminate the express at 86th Street. The only reason I can think of for not doing it is that ridership on the line is not what it used to be. Can that be the case?
You're using the wrong tense. HAD express tracks. They just rebuilt one of the 2, and mostly removed the second.
Perhaps peak express is in the future? HA!
-Hank
The N trains looked pretty crowded to me (for a non-main line). There was only one empty car, but the windows were all open (no a/c). Of all of my experiences (daytime) on the Sea Beach, I have never been in an empty (or nearly empty) car after Kings Highway. Approx. 150 people on the train by 59st. But it doesn't matter (passenger wise) if the train goes on the Sea Beach or not, there are no express stops between CI and 59th. Though, a summer weekend express that utilized the route would be very useful, many people would love a super express making 3 stops between CI and Manhattan (59th, 36th, Pacific). Maybe call it the T (for tourist - I'll list all the stops tourists for some reason like to go), have it start at 145th, CPW local (for the Museum of Natural History), it would hit Columbus Circle, Rockefeller Center, B'way Lafayette, Grand, CI, and maybe run it through to Ocean Pkwy so it could stop at W8th, for the Aquarium. Run it middays and weekends only, times when tourists and even residents looking for places to go love to travel around on the subway.
Or, for a practical weekday alternative, fill in one express track at the more popular stops with a platform and run a peak direction only express.
The time is now 8:15 PM and I'm in #metrocard right now if anybody is interested in chatting.
Server: javairc.mircx.com
Port: 6667
Channel: #metrocard
Download mIRC for free at www.mirc.com.
-- David
Boston, MA
You can also connect more easily at chat.cjb.net/metrocard.
You can also connect more easily at chat.cjb.net/metrocard.
On an R-44 A, all the signs on the first 3 cars said 'WALK THRU TRAIN', but the fourth car, one sign said 'WALK THRU TRAIN' while the one closer to the cab said 'NYCTA'! I knew it was possible to have every sign say something different when the 'test' setting is on, or have each A-B pair say something different, but I never saw two signs on the same car say something different.
In the Luminator system, there are 5 individual devices connected to the Sign Control Unit. They are daisy-chained together and each must have it's own discrete address. The ODK (in the cab) is always called 0001 while the four signs in the A & B car are numbered 0002 through 0005. If all five devices are numbered correctly all will display the same message. However, if there are two devices with (let's say) 0003, then the system may lock up or one sign may not update to a new message. It's possible that a new sign was hung in that car and it was not properly set for the location at which it was installed.
So basically, it's like an IRQ conflict.
If it's set up so that one controller runs 4 signs, how does changeing the code on one controller change all 16 signs?
-Hank
It doesn't, I usually see the conductor first change the four signs controlled by his cab, then he crosses to the other cab and changes the four signs there, and goes back to his cab.
So basically, it's like an IRQ conflict.
I'd say an addressing conflict would be closer to the mark. The IRQ's are separate discrete wires. They're also edge triggered, which makes it difficult for multiple devices to share a single IRQ.
The address lines, while not daisy chained in the strict sense, are shared among all devices.
With all due respect to Henry, one unit will control the entire train. It works like this: Each pair of cars has exactly the same equipment. The SCU talks to its 5 discrete devices. At the same time, each SCU talks to the other SCUs. When the motorman throws a reverser it enables one SCU to become the 'master' while the others default to being slaves. The unit that becomes the master is the unit that receives a code command last. hence, if the C/R enters code #51 at his position, his unit becomes the master. That SCU will command its 5 discrete devices to display message #51. At the same time, the SCU informs the other SCUs that it is now the master and instructs the other SCUs to have their 5 discrete devices display the same coded message. If the motorman subsequently were to input another message code, his unit would become the master and the other's would become slaves and display the message as instructed by themotorman's SCU. It is really quite an orderly system.
Could each set of 5 be changed seperately, ie, could somone enter a code into one of the slave SCUs and change those signs?
-Hank
If I understand Train Dude's explanation correctly, that would cause the slave SCU to become the master and change all the signs.
Only if no reverser were thrown anywhere in the train. Until a reverser is thrown, there is no communication between SCUs. `
It's possible that a new sign was hung in that car and it was not properly set for the location at which it was installed.
Well that shoots my theory that problem of inside-out roll signs could be cured by going to electronic signs. It's reassuring to know that NYCT provides the same high level of inspection for their electronic sign replacement as they do for the low tech roll signs.
Easy Stephen, I said it was possible. It was just as possible for the LCD controller Card inside of the sign to have failed. After-all, it was only an incorrect message displayed. It wasn't the challenger disaster.
It was just as possible for the LCD controller Card inside of the sign to have failed.
Is there a similar failure mode for the roll signs that appear to be mounted backwards? Were these signs origninally put in correctly and they suddenly became disoriented in operation?
After-all, it was only an incorrect message displayed. It wasn't the challenger disaster.
What do you have against passengers knowing where a train is going by being able to read a destination sign?
There's the perception that maintenance is shoddy, when it is obvious that workers put highly visible parts in backwards. It does not improve the public perception of a car's overall maintenance when it enters revenue service with such obvious worker induced problems. This perception proved to be an accurate barometer of the general maintenance state of the fleet. If there's no inspection of visible components, who knows what shortcuts are taken with everything else.
Since you brought up, the Challenger was done in by an improperly used o-ring, probably one of the least expensive and most mundane of all the parts on the shuttle. What about storm doors that won't close...
Is there a similar failure mode for the roll signs that appear to be mounted backwards? Were these
signs origninally put in correctly and they suddenly became disoriented in operation?
Not to condone or condemn electronic side signs, but didn't we
have a discussion about upside-down roll signs and determine that
they weren't really upside-down, just in between positions?
Not to condone or condemn electronic side signs, but didn't we have a discussion about upside-down roll signs and determine that they weren't really upside-down, just in between positions?
The outside panes are larger than the inside panes on the Redbirds. If the lettering is too big for the inside window and it is right side up, then the rolls were mounted incorrectly. Similarly if the pane itself reads "oT" instead of "To", it's a fair assumption it was mounted incorrectly.
What genius decided to put the route on top and destinations beneath on one R-32 rollsign (assigned to Jamaica)? I wouldn't mind, except the spot for the 'to' blocks 3/4 the letter! Also, I see backward rollsigns more on the B than A division. BTW, I saw a backward R-68a route rollsign today, on the B. Hard to tell, except the K was where the D is supposed to go.
Is there a similar failure mode for the roll signs that appear to be mounted backwards? Were these signs origninally put in correctly and they suddenly became disoriented in operation?
I hope you are not trying to put me on, Stephen. I'm quite sure that you, of all people, realize that if the roll-sign appears upside down, it's either the inside message improperly positioned in the outside sign or vice-versa. That's human error by the train crew and not shoddy maintenance.
What do you have against passengers knowing where a train is going by being able to read a destination sign?
I have absolutely nothing against people knowing where they are going and I think they have every right to expect correct sinage. As for the Luminator Side Signs, in 1992 I spent considerable time in Plaino, Texas learning the system operation & maintenance. I also created a training program for NYCT employees and trained most of the mechanics that now maintain the equipment. I know that when a sign is installed, the DIP switch can be mis-set. I also know that the controller card can fail. Neither is a common occurrence, hence, the subject "Odd occurrence". My point was that we tend to go back and forth about various transit issues. You like bashing management. I always seem to be defending it. There are 288 R-44s and 752 R-46s that use this system. That's 2,080 signs (not including R-110s and busses). One bad sign in 2,080 - well you do the math.
Other than the 212 cars, is there an option for more cars, similar to options with both the R142B and R142K orders? (B = Bombardier, K = Kawasaki)
The Eastern Division is in serious need of some new blood, and fast....
212 cars is nowhere near enough, IMO. Perhaps an order of 300 to 400 cars would give some breathing room.
Nick
after buyin 1400 new R142's, I dont think the TA can afford more than 212 new B division cars right now.
The primary order for the R143 contract is 100. The option order is 112 cars. 100 + 112 = 212. The option order is included in the 212 cars.
It seems that the LIRR and subway stations there are too close together to have been original stations. Which one was built during the acquision by the TA?
The only station built during the TA takeover was the Mott Ave. Station. All other stations on both branches were built prior to TA takeover.
Although they were built prior to TA takeover, they built for the purpose of subway takeover in the future.
I know that they were all there, but one of the Far Rockaway stations, either the LIRR or the subway, was not there before the subway takeover.
That'd be Mott Ave, the present terminal of the A, opened in 1958.
Is there a track connection between the present Far Rockaway A and the present LIRR Rockaway line?
No.
No. A strip mall was built on the old connection between the two lines. There is a good four-blocks between the Mott Ave. "A" train station and the Far Rock LIRR depot.
Doug aka BMTman
Its a pain in the @$$ to try to walk from one to the other, I ended up walking down Mott ave 6 blocks before I realized my error. If I hadn't remembered seeing the 113 bus roll by when I had done the reverse, I could have gotten completely lost.
(To answer the original question) I believe the current NYCT subway station at Far Rockaway is the original LIRR station. The current LIRR station was built when the TA took over the Cross Bay Blvd. tracks. They cut off 4 blocks of track and built a small new terminal for the LIRR line via Nassau County.
No, according to the book "Transfer at Ozone Park" the TA built the Mott Av Station. The LIRR station was roughly between the IND Station and the present LIRR Station. It was on ground level with a trainyard attached to it. It also had low platforms.
The terminal station at Mott Ave. opened two years after the rest of the line. Prior to its opening, Far Rockaway trains terminated at Wavecrest (Beach 25 St).
-- Ed Sachs
So when was the LIRR station moved to it's current site?
Nope, the present Mott Ave. terminal is all new MTA construction, built from 1955-1958.
There was no MTA in the fifties!!!
BOARD OF TRANSPORTATION AND THEN THE TA
You know what i meant.....lol
From what I understand, the orignal Far Rockaway LIRR station was somewhat between the present day LIRR and IND Stations. By the way, Pigs, your original post asked about the close proximity of the stations and if they planned it to be for rapid transit. Just after the turn of the century until WW1 when the Chestnut St connection between the Jamaica El and the LIRR Bklyn Branch was still in use, there were rapid transit type trains (the MP41's) going from the Williamsburg Br to the Rockaways.
". By the way, Pigs, your original post asked about the close proximity of the stations and if they planned it to be for rapid transit."
No, my question had nothing to do with that.
I didn't ask, or don't care (at least at this time) about the line at Beach 25th Street of further west.
All I asked about are the two stations in Far Rockaway, which was from the LIRR era and which was built for the split.
Well I guess then it wasn't you. But someone in this thread asked about it.
If I remember correctly, all the staions were rebuilt in Rockaway for IND Specs. It took a few years from the LIRR closing until the A extension to open.
The LIRR closed the line across Jamaica Bay in 1951 after a fire destroyed the trestle. However, LIRR service on the Rockaway Peninsula continued via Far Rockaway until a few months before subway service commenced.
I don't think that much rebuilding of the elevated stations was required. Most of the line on the Rockaway Peninsula was elevated around 1940, and was built at that time to accommodate subway trains in anticipation of an eventual takeover by the subway system.
The part of the line which required extensive rebuilding for the subway was the line across the bay -- the burned-out wood trestle being replaced by sand fill. New stations were built for the subway at Hamilton Beach and Broad Channel, as well as at Mott Ave. (opened 2 yrs. later). At Rockaway Park, a high-level platform was constructed.
-- Ed Sachs
In addition, the third rail had to be rewired and fare controls (with the double token to enter, single to exit) installed.
When we talked about the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Line being converted to subway usage a while back, someone said that there was a height difference between the subway and LIRR. Which is true, because if there is a height difference some rebuilding would have been required.
I believe LIRR equipment rides higher than their NYC subway counterparts. Not sure, but I believe it's several inches -- enough to make for a re-furbishing of platforms.
Also, NYCT-type signalling would have to be installed as well. Other than that, the Atlantic Ave. branch is fairly compatible for subway use. However, it's route in relation to the A/C Fulton Street line would make it a redundant and unnecessary.
Doug aka BMTman
Neither of the present Far Rockaway stations existed before the TA takeover of Rockaway service. Yes, there was a station on Mott Avenue. It was located across the street from the present Far Rockaway "A" train station, in what is now a shopping center. It consisted of about 5 tracks and several platforms and was on ground level.
If you are interested in the Rockaway Line and its FULL history a great book to get is "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George. Alot of good pics of LIRR trains at the now IND stations too.
The LIRR built all of the Rockaway line's present stations (except Far Rockaway), with the thought of eventual takeover by the subway system. Remember, the original Second System IND plan called for this way back in 1929.
So Mott Avenue was built by the subway between 1956 and 1958 (which is why trains only went to Wavecrest)?
Yes. The old line merged with the present LIRR Far Rockaway line east of what's now Mott Ave. This connection was severed and the terminal was built.
Are you sure the Transit Authority didn't also rebuild Rockaway Park? In a picture of it in 1955 in the book Transfer at Ozone Park it is low platform and looks very different than the present day station.
I'm sure it was modified for subway usage. However, unlike Mott Ave, a station existed on that very ground pre-subway. Mott Ave was a completely new station.
This weekend while shooting vidieo at the opening of the new ""free day for the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE""
I got off the red line while shooting pictures & vidieo at the 7 th & metro center transfer station to the BLUE LINE.....
in which was too cheap to offer a free ride ..!!!.. The green line should have been offered a a free ride also..!!
When I got off at the 7 th & metro center to shoot a picture of both the blue & red line at different levels as I
did back in 1991 & 1994 when the red line first opened etc......With no problem at all .......anyway heres the beef....
THE OUTRAGE IS WHEN these brown & green nazi types .......THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFFS ..etc...
Run didnt walk up to me & us threating to take us to JAIL if we took any still pictures & that I had to have
a written permit to present to them on demand like we are in some kind of TOP SECRET military base & or
in nazi germany during the second world war or something like that we had to be in some secret military installation !!
I waited until this goose steeping S.S. bastard left on the next train & then I shot off all of the pictures I wanted ..!!!
Who in the hell did this gestapo without a NAZI patch on his left arm think that he was ?????..
JUST FOR SPITE I WILL RE SHOOT STILL PICTURES AT THE SEVENTH & METRO CENTER AGAIN...!!!
& I will leave out of there laughing ...... I WANT REVENGE & I WILL GET IT .......!!!!!
man I am outraged..!!!! ( sorry for the capital letters & mistakes )........
......also with the red line subway cars full .........THE AIR CONDITIONING FAILED ......
NYCT appears to be proceeding at a snail's pace with installing air conditioning units on the Lex platforms. These units are really heat exchangers that divert water mains to remove the heat. The do not vent heat back into the air and require far less electrical power than a conventional A/C.
Might one suppose that a November inauguration date is now planned?
Huh, this is news to me. I thought they planned to ventilate, but not cool, the stations.
It looks like the units are there, but I don't think they've hooked them up to anything. I thought they were going to connect it to GCT's A/C system.
I noticed fans in Times Square. How come they are never on?
I've seen them on.
Are you talking about the ones at the shuttle?
Yes. It gets really hot over there and I was suprised to see the fans off.
They never did anything anyway except circulate the urine smell (now gone, thank God).
Times Square has got to be one of the stinkiest subway stations. Why?
Huh, never really thought about it. I guess I assumed it was the clientele, but lots of other stations are even sleazier . . .
They are water-based units, but are you sure it isn't
a chilled (refrigerated) water system?
They are water-based units, but are you sure it isn't a chilled (refrigerated) water system?
I'm not sure.
I remember reading that this was supposed to be a prototype for the entire system. If it's a chilled water system, it would make sense to use Grand Central's refrigeration system. However, such a system would not be practical for all the underground stations.
Chilled water or not - when do they propose to turn the thing on?
Actually, useing the water mains, in a way, is a "chilled" water system of sorts. I'd assume the water is in fact pretty cold, and it makes no sense cooing water if there's a supply of cold water handy. i wonder if they dump the warmer water down the drain or just shoot it back into the watermain? #1 is easy, #2 is a bit harder, but saves water, and is perfectly practical.
It may not cool the platforms to 50 degrees in the summer, but bringing it down to 70 or so is a BIG help, and doing it this way, if it saves energy over a traditional system, is, IMHO, worth it.
Canal st. seems to have a 'natural' air conditioning, I hope the work they're doing doesn't cause this phenomenon to dissappear. Its fun to be able to see your breath when the world outside is in 90 degree weather.
Yeah, the weather at Canal seems to often differ from the weather outside. For instance, it often rains in the station when it's perfectly dry upstairs.
Btw, to answer Stephen's question, I have no idea when these
things are getting turned on.
At some point early in the history of the IRT, a system was tried
at Brooklyn Bridge with a fan drawing air across a heat exchanger
which circulated well water. I don't know how successful this was.
Generally, in air conditioning design, the discharge air temperature
must be about 10-15 degrees (F) cooler than the desired room
temperature, minimum. Water in the mains is probably around
80F during the summer so it won't do too much. Of course, you
could make it up by going to drastic CFM levels.
Water in the mains is probably around 80F during the summer so it won't do too much.
I would have assumed that the mains water temperature temperature would have been much less. The NYC Water supply does represent one great big thermal mass and most of it is buried pretty deep into the ground. I guess I'll have to get out a thermometer and measure my tap water temperature in late August.
I really doubt it gets to 80F.
But if it does get to say, 60F, and you warm it up to 75, then pipe it off to someone's house, they might be pretty mad that they cannot get cold water. On the other hand, it would be great to use the cooling power of the water before it gets heated for the shower (win twice that way) or goes to the toilet. This stuff saves energy, but ends up using a lot of plumbing - seperate lines for drinking water and so on. $$$. Maybe we'll see more of this in the future, if energy gets more expensive?
I wonder if the new "green" skyscraper being built downtown will use this sort of system?
I'd be surprised if they used non-recirculated water from the mains. Systems of that type are waste the supply of fresh water and were outlawed in the City years ago during one of the droughts.
Whatever the system is, I think the noise level from all of the units will be unbearable for the waiting passengers. As part of this project, the Flushing platform is getting small fans to try to circulate the air.
Today's Star-Ledger reports that due to cracked and missing bolts in the locomotive undercarriage the train will not see regular service until at least August.
Glitches derail debut of Amtrak's long-awaited high-speed train
Maybe they should call it Decela.
Nothing really new in theory, but a good summary of recent arrests leading
to wanted criminals.In today's Daily News.Horde of Hoodlums Nabbed at Turnstile
The cops still stop people who already paid their fare.
They should only stop those who cheat the system. Maybe they still didn't learn.
After reading the news stories and not being familiar with Metrocard, I am left with some questions.
How was it that the police knew a stolen card was used, or that a student card was being used on a non school day?
Also, why would they arrest at least two people and find later that they had properly swiped their Metrocards? How could they have thought they were farebeaters in the first place?
How was it that the police knew a stolen card was used, or that a student card was being used on a non school day?
If I recall correctly from earlier posts, TA employee cards and student cards display a different pattern of lights at the turnstiles. Therefore, if the individual coming through is not a TA employee but the lights indicate that an employee card was used, there is a reasonable presumption of invalid use. Ditto for the lights indicating the use of a student card - if it's outside the prescribed hours (which can vary from day to day, so it's not programmed into the computer) then there is a violation.
Also, why would they arrest at least two people and find later that they had properly swiped their Metrocards? How could they have thought they were farebeaters in the first place?
Perhaps there was a malfunction of the turnstile lights, or any one of a number of causes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nobody will stop you from using a school card at any time on a school day (and no, the times DO NOT vary) so long as you can show ID. If you can't, then you have to prove in court that it was a school day.
The cards don't work at all before 5:30 AM, after 8:30 PM or on weekends. On holidays, you can use them, just not legally.
I wonder what people do if they have school days when others have holidays?
I usually am not stopped, the one time I was I had to show them my school calendar to indicate that I did, in fact, have school on that day. I forgot what holiday it was, but everyone was griping over it at school since we were one of the only schools in session that day.
I was stopped twice. I didn't show my program card (it was a forgery anyway, I don't want to bother to explain), I showed my school ID.
Why is it that the R-44, R-46, and R-68's can't run on the J, M, and Z?
The curve at Crescent st. for the J/Z, the turn at Myrtle for the M, and the curve after the WilliamsburgJ/M/Z/L, are too sharp for the longer (75') cars to pass safely.
It's self-explainitory.
The 7 line, my home line. Replace old rustbirds, new concrete viaduct with full ballast and concrete ties. ATO and Cab signaling. Top speed
increased, full field shunting. Railfan window a la SEPTA M4 cars.
The cars being replaced with MUST have A/C. Those old redbirds gotta go, man. OTOH, maybe we just need those R62s to increase more service... Or transfer those redbirds to other lines.
Don't know about the viaduct since it was recently rehabilitated only a couple of years ago.
This is not to be construed as a knock on New York. I don't want Q, the Sarge or Doug on my case, but all cars should be air conditioned. It is awfully humid in the East and visitors are not used to that if they are from relatively less humid climates. On a personal level, I would like my Sea Beach to become an express again, and be able to traverse the Manhattan Bridge. One more thing, please fix up Stillwell Avenue.
Fred: I have nothing against A/C, just the opposite. They should all be A/C, frigid, and work all the time. If you are referring to my preference for the R32 Brightliners before their overhaul, I say yeah, it's good that they put in the A/C. That does not mean they had to paint over the original colors, mismatch the colors of walls, doors, seats, and floors, remove the straps or change the front end letter and destination signs to one small letter sign. And yes, I would like to see your Sea Beach returned to express too, but unfortunately that can't happen before 2004-5.
Why can't the Sea Beach return to an express unitl After 2004-5? Is it because of the Manny B?
Frank D
They wouldn't need field shunting, the new cars will most likely NOT use DC motors.
I would put back the R40 slants on the "B" because I miss how you'd get the view from the express tracks on the 4th Avenue line. Also, you won't have to wait till rush hour to catch an R40 or R42 "M" to get a view of the 38th Street yard and see all the tracks join together.
I agree, replace the redbirds (the ac doesn't work well with those refurbished cars) with the new R142 painted in the WF colors. That would be a sight.
It would be 6th avenue and Broadway lines. Build a new four track tunnel, connecting to both Chrystie and Broadway tracks to replace MB. Run B and D 6th avenue express through the Chrystie street tubes and then it's current route in Brooklyn. Run N and Q via Broadway Express, via the new Broadway tubes to Dekalb and then it's current Brooklyn routes. R would remain local.
The Q would run local on Queens Blvd from 179st street to Manhattan via 63rd street connection.
Then the V would run from Lexington avenue (there is a layup area currently hidden on the other side of current platforms). The V would run from Lex and then via 6th avenue express, terminating at 2nd avenue on the F. Rush hours it would operate via Culver express to Coney Island, Manhattan bound in AM and Brooklyn bound in PM.
Put a third track on the 14th St. - Canarsie Line
I'm not sure if that's possible, since a) the line has many twists and turns in Brooklyn and b) the room and the reconstruction of the stations may be impossible both physically and financially.
Build the express track underneath the existing line, and on a more direct route (like Queens Blvd.).
Million-dollar question is, does ridership on the Canarsie justify an express? Especially since it intersects both the J/Z and the A.
Run the Brighton Exp from 6AM-11PM Mon-Sat. Put the D back as the Express and the Q as a Local and on Broadway via Tunnel. Make the 9 a thru express instead of skip stop, middle track in each direction. More frequent service mid days on A, 20 Minutes is a long rate Mid day at Howard Beach, or run the C back to Lefferts, and the A s to Both Rockaways.
Also allow free transfers from Metro North and LIRR to the Subway
It would only be free to the subway. The other way you'd have to step up.
>>>Also allow free transfers from Metro North and LIRR to the Subway<<<
In a perfect world. What they could do is allow a free transfer at Woodside from the 7 to the LIRR on those frequent weekends when they have closed either the Steinway tunnel or the N tunnel...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Expand "Q" service to include late evening (up to 11PM), and weekends (Sat. 6AM-9PM; Sun. 8AM-9PM)
wayne
I agree precisely. And with the opening of the 63rd St. connector, run it express to Jamaica-179th. For other lines: institute K from Eastern Parkway via Delancey and then 8th Av. local to 168th-Wash. Hts. with J and Z express from Eastern Parkway to Essex. Construct connector from Franklin Shuttle to Fulton St. exp. tracks and build connector for it to run through Rutgers St. tunnel.
Via B'way exp, Manny B or Montague, 4ave exp, followed by a run on the Sea Beach exp, and coming up on Brighton from the South.
Via Queens exp (including Hillside ave), 6ave local, via culver (alternating local - express).
Via Queens local (including Hillside ave), B'way local, 1/3 Manny B 2/3 Montague, 4ave local.
Replace Manhattan br. with 4 track subway only suspension bridge.
Well, if we're talking budget free constraints...
Any changes I'd make would involve accelerating the repair of the Manhattan Bridge ahead of its 20-year schedule. Then I would restore full express service on the N between 59th Street and 57th Street, *round the clock*. I would then add trains on the R late nights to ensure no more than between a 5 and 10 minute wait for service. This would enable me to move back to beautiful Bay Ridge...
I would also make the proper track connections to turn the G into the Culver Local to at least Kings Highway, if not Coney, and run the F express between Bergen and Kings or Coney.
I would also keep the Q local on weekends and run the D express, like during the week. Especially during these summer weekends. The ride to Coney yesterday was interminable.
Unlike the MTA, I prize getting where I want to go QUICKLY. Given the budget I would prioritize express service.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(I would also make the proper track connections to turn the G into the Culver Local to at least Kings Highway, if not Coney, and run the F express between Bergen and Kings or Coney.)
You know, there is one way it perhaps wouldn't be so bad if we lost F service and had to wait for, and transfer to, the G: if the G ran every three minutes in the rush hour, and every five minutes off peak.
This is a labor issue, not a car issue: one could always run shorter trains. Throughput would be greater without the switch. The only problem is, unless Bergen St lower level could be renovated, those at 4th Ave, Smith/9th, Caroll and Bergen would have to change trains twice for many destinations.
Would anyone else want this: eliminate local service to Manhattan, and take a "local" vehicle and transfer? It would be the equivalent of taking a bus to the train, but with a bus on rails.
For example, cut the number of Brighton Line trains running to Manhattan, but make the me all express, and run one or two car local every 3 - 5 minutes through to the Franklin Ave shuttle?
The F/G situation in Brooklyn is the one most likely to get settled one way or another when the 63rd Street tunnel opens along with restoration of full service on the Manhattan Bridge (yes, I still have faith). If the Q goes back to Broadway and the B continues going to 168th Washington Heights, a new Sixth Ave. line will be needed (the long mentioned V train) to serve 57th-7th via 63rd St. That line will have to have a southern terminal somewhere, and unless the MTA decides to run the V from Continental Ave. to Eastern Parkway via the Chrystie St. connection, chances are it's going to end up running at least to Smith-9th Street and possibly to Church Ave. or Kings Highway, which would allow restoration of Culver express service -- once they get enough B division cars to handle it, of course.
Unless they decide to be cheap and cut it at 2nd Av. That's what I had always heard from the TA. (Sending it to Brooklyn is more our wishful thinking)
Let's say the Q is moved (back) to Broadway. Then Sixth Avenue is left with the B, D, and F. Is a new Sixth Avenue service really needed? The other Manhattan trunk lines will each be served by three lines; the only reason Sixth Avenue has four now is that the Q is displaced from Broadway. If Sixth Avenue really, really needs more service than the B, D, and F can provide, why not simply reduce headways on one of those lines? I have nothing against a V train, but I really don't see why it's needed.
Really, it's only needed because of the 57th Street-Sixth Ave. station. The Q could serve Queensbridge and eventually continue on to Continental Ave. from the Broadway line via the track switch before the Lexington Ave. station, but without a fourth line on Sixth Ave., the MTA would have no choice but to shut the station down, unless they decided to run F express service from Roosevelt Ave. through 63rd Street, bypassing Queens Plaza, 23rd Ely and Lex annd Fifth Ave. on 53rd St.
Leaving the E as the only train servicing those lines would create it's own problems, inlcuding forcing passengers from those four stops to backtrack onto the D at 7th and 53rd if they wanted to go down Sixth Avenue.
So shut the station down. It's close enough to 57-7 that it's really not a big deal. If 57-6 absolutely must see continued service, run a shuttle down 6th Avenue to the first place it could turn around. (Then cancel the shuttle after nobody uses it.)
57th and Sixth is probably too high-profile a location to shut down for any extended length of time. It's right in the heart of the media jungle, which might get the local papers and TV stations to pay more attention to why the whole Manny B thing has taken so long, if it was directly connected to the shut gates on the 57th Street station's entrances.
(57th and Sixth is probably too high-profile a location to shut down for any extended length of time. It's right in the heart of the
media jungle, which might get the local papers and TV stations to pay more attention to why the whole Manny B thing has
taken so long, if it was directly connected to the shut gates on the 57th Street station's entrances. )
Being a little devious, if I were an MTA planner I would come up with the worst temporary service plan on record. Being under the pol's thumb, the MTA bureaucracy can't come out and say that the Manhattan Bridge is a disaster than must be stopped. So I'd let it come to light in other ways.
Hopefully, the further screw up of Brooklyn service will occur at the same time that the LIRR to GCT breaks ground and the 63rd St connection opens, just so Brooklyn residents can see where they stand.
There are two plans that I can think of which would make the 57th-6th useful.:
(1) Have F run local in Queens through 63rd, continuing local to Brooklyn 24/7 (continuing to 179th in rush and when Q not running). Have Q run express from 179th to Brighton Beach/Coney Island 17/7 (via 63rd St. and Broadway express).
(2) E (12 tph), F (9 tph), and Q (9 tph) run express in Queens, with Q via 63rd and Broadway express (17/7), E & F via 53rd (except when Q is not running, run F via 63rd). Thus additional Fs needed for running via Culver that cannot be accommodated on Queens exp., so: F express from Coney Island to 57th & 6th, (17/7) (exp. in Brooklyn to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM).
I've thought about this on and off--replacing locals with expresses, and expresses with superexpresses. It seems to me that the relationship between the ratio of express to local stations and travel time is nonlinear as a function of travel distance, and so should decrease as one moves out from the business districts.
MTA motto: Taking the rapid out of rapid transit
[MTA motto: Taking the rapid out of rapid transit]
And taking the "sit" out too!
Or better yet...
MTA, going your way...and taking all day!
Peace,
ANDEE
switch the E and F after west 4th so there will be CI service from 8th Ave and downtown service from 6th ave.
Not so much the line as maybe a station or two. I recently spent the day with a couple of other railfans on lines up to the Bronx down to Coney Island and all of the "L" line.
I asked to get off and take pictures at the Sutter and Livonia stations. They said it was not safe and better not because it's a dangerous part of town.
Would it not save the transit systeme money to shut down some stations that are disused ( Dean) or not safe?
[Would it not save the transit systeme money to shut down some stations that are disused ( Dean) or not safe?]
Probably yes. But any proposed station closing is almost certain to stir up neighborhood opposition. Even Dean Street's closing in 1995 did not go unchallenged, and that was for a station very close to others and which had fewer than 100 riders per day. Moving away from the subway for a moment, the LIRR ran into some opposition a couple of years ago when it closed the line stations in Queens on the Long Island City line - daily ridership at those stations *literally* could have been counted on the fingers of one hand.
As a result, I doubt we'll be seeing many station closings anytime soon, at least not with NYCT's conflict-avoiding management.
LIRR stations can be unmanned, and just slabs of tar on the ground (OK, a wooden staircase for the C-3s). Trains don't even have to stop, they could function like buses, if noone's there, & nobody wants to get off, then skip it.
Stop strips on trains. People will have to have automated announcements for each stop and clear windows to look out.
"If the train has standing room only, please move toward the rear"
When will the HBLR finally use the stop strips and the manual doors?
Probably when they realize the door repair costs them most of their profit (if any). The third day of operation I counted 4 non-operative doors. The 'open all' feature was meant for easy loading-unloading at major stops, not for every stop. The motors can't handle that much use.
I think the trains stop at every stop even if nobody's on the platform or the train. Using the stop-strip feature would make many midday trains equivalent to express trains.
It can't be tar, it would stick to everything.
But it can certainly be just an area cleared of vegetation.
I believe that a railroad should be 100% high platform and 100% electrical. The LIRR has already achieved the first.
........I would overhaul the red line subway to nowhere here in lost angeles L. A. & then i would have
a conductor & railfan window !!!!!
In the Boston area (MBTA):
Although this would involve adding some new track, my idea is to start building extensions of the Red Line to Arlington Center, the Orange Line to Roslindale Square, or even the Green Line to Union Square. These would have exactly one new station each.
The MBTA Red Line extension was originally planned to go to Arlington Center, and even further -- to Lexington -- using the old right-of-way that's now a bike trail. Why not? Three reasons:
1. NIMBYs
2. Money
3. NIMBYs
I'd move the F into the 63rd Street tunnel with the B (which would go down Broadway and serve Queens Blvd all times except nights) and bring the G into Manhattan through the 53rd Street tunnel. The Q would then go to the Bronx via 6th Av, CPW and Grand Concourse.
The D/Q would become like the A/C, except at one point swapping roles. The service would be too redundant. As it is the current D/Q arrangement is moronic, two Brigton lines to 6th ave? If both sides of the Manny B were working properly, the Q would go via B'way to Queensbridge (and eventually Queens Blvd), and the D via 6th. Since it would be serving a wider variety of lines, the service would probably include evenings and weekends.
It's the Q's lack of evening and weekend service that prompted me to suggest that it take the B's place on the Concourse and CPW. Then the B would only have one northern terminal (in Queens) instead of three like it does now. But if evening and weekend service are added to the Q, then there would be no reason to switch the Q and the B.
Not too long ago, I've heard several suggestions making the Q a permanent 6th Ave line and making the B a permanent Broadway line.What advantages would that have?
Something else stupid are the three 6th Avenue lines to Coney Island.
Swap the E and F below West 4th. It can be done, and they won't have to cross each other at grade either way.
There used to be 3 Coney Island Lines on Broadway back in BMT Days, Brighton, West End and Sea Beach, and all ran 24/7. So big deal. Yes the F should end maybe at 2nd Ave or WTC, and the E to Coney Island, making the switch just south of West 4th.
The D and Q would be exact duplicates of each other. The B has always been a 6th Ave-Central Park West Train(old BB)
What will happen to M service once the changes go into effect. Everyone seemed to forget about the M train. My guess is that it will be cancelled, and for the better....for certain, onl a hand-full of people use this service, and when they do, they get off at DeKalb, 36th or Pacific to use other trains. They should have cancelled it completely and added more B train service OR could have run a Nassau R train. They probably already knew that no one used the M when they cut back from service to 9th Avenue terminal.
Within a week or so I'll be flying into Chicago to do research for my new book, "Windy Rails: The Elevated Railroad and the Making of Modern Chicago". What I need to know is how much of a chance I'm going to be taking by taking a camera (albeit a disposable one) into the heart of the South and West Sides. The Douglas L is my primary target insofar as it is due for a major overhaul at the end of the year. I want to capture on film some of its Nineteenth Century stations before they're replaced. The South Side L is also high on my list because it is the city's first elevated line and the Lake Street L is a target because it is the only line out there which traverses a street instead of an alley for most of its length. Furthermore, if anyone knows how I can make an appointment with the C.T.A. Archives, please post a response.
My thanks to you in advance.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
I'm in the process of scanning six rolls of film from throughout the CTA system for this website, and many of the pics I took were on the south and west sides. I got a few strange looks, but not any problems.
Have fun in Chicago... Be sure to have a slice of deep-dish pizza for me. The stuff they call pizza here in Boston just ain't the same.
-- David
Boston, MA
Lou Malnoti's is better that Pizzaria Uno for chicago pizza.
As a side trip take a ride to Kenosha on Metra and ride the PCC Streetcars on Kenosha's lakefront. They run Mon - Friday 11:05 AM to 7:07 PM and Sat 10:35 AM to 5:35 PM
Be sure to ride the Skokie Swift-the last remaining piece of the North Shore.
Yesterday' tour went rather well, despite not being able to enter the Brooklyn Army Terminal's main building.
The tour head-count was 37 (not bad -- the limit is 40).
I tried my best to recall facts and figures from memory as we walked from the SBK yards to Bush Terminal. Incidentally, we found the main gate at NYCH RR closed, but fortunately for those with cameras, the rear gate (by 50th Street) was opened. We then were able to go over to the Cross Harbor float bridge which also provided a nice view of upper New York Bay.
We also got to look at the SBK interchange yard at 2nd Ave. and 39th Street. Again, we were turned around by security guards, but at least the facility is viewable through the chain-link fence.
I'm glad the weather held up nicely with completely sunny skies (84 degrees, with slight winds and low humidity).
I think most of the attendees had a good time. Of course this would be a tour best held in the fall. So there is always the possibility that a cooler weather excursion might be in the works.
Doug aka BMTman
Could we list the next tour in the events section of the BBS? I'm really sorry that I missed it.
David
> Could we list the next tour in the events section of the BBS?
This particular tour (6/24) was run under the auspices of the Transit Museum. Since most of the Transit Museum tours are sold out immediately upon members receiving their mailings I typically do not bother to list them here -- and they have their own web site anyway. On tours like the Nostalgia Trains-- I listed them since they weren't sold out and they are high capacity. It's in the whole "hobby"'s best interest for them to sell out so a little free advertising won't hurt anyone.
If anyone from the Transit Museum is reading this and wants to list your events in our calender please contact me and I can arrange it so that you can type in your own events.
-Dave
Thanks, Dave. That's exactly why I didn't bother you for a listing of the Waterfront Tour here.
Additionally, I knew from the get-go that there would be a limit of 40 people on the tour, and was tipped off that the trip would be "pre-sold out". This means that as soon as the June schedule got mailed out and received by Transit Museum members, the event would be if not sold out, then close to it. I didn't want to disappoint any SubTalkers by posting here. (IF I were to have asked Dave P to post the trip, it would have been a few days AFTER the Transit Museum mailing so as to not conflict with their members who rightly should have "first dibs" on scheduled tours).
However, for those who would be interested in a similar tour, I would be happy to do one for our SubTalkers later in the summer (dog days), or early fall, depending on feedback (and of course the weather).
I hope the above clears up this misunderstanding.
Doug aka BMTman
Pretty fortunate that we got into the BAT last summer!
www.forgotten-ny.com
You're absolutely right, Kevin!
As the old saying goes -- 'timing is everything'!
Maybe the next tour permisions can be obtained from SBK, Cross Harbor and BAT?? Since this is a TA Musuem sponsored tour and people are paying for it, they should get or attempt to get permision from the governing agencies?
[Maybe the next tour permisions can be obtained from SBK, Cross Harbor and BAT?? Since this is a TA Musuem sponsored tour and people are paying for it, they should get or attempt to get permision from the governing agencies?]
Lou, you really get off on busting my chops, don't you?
Let me set you straight: first off, this tour occurred on the WEEKEND. Urgo, with the exception of BAT, none of the other facilities are supposed to be operating.
As I said in a previous post here, we lucked out that one of the gates to SBK's interchange yard was opened. Normally that would not be the case and shooting through the fence would be the standard procedure for photo ops. The security personnel ARE NOT TA EMPLOYEES, so they had no authorization to let us in (and nor should they considering cars are being removed of ASBESTOS in that yard). Even the gate to the SBK 4th Ave. subway portal was opened. However, a work crew was there so I didn't feel it was appropriate to enter the yard area. Again, on weekends that would be a locked-gate facility. Some kind of emergency work must've accounted for the crew and/or contractors being on duty there.
The gate to NYCH/Bush Terminal facilities were opened (as there is an Italian restaurant on the premises among other 24/7 businesses). It was the NYCH business offices that was closed to the public. We were able to walk around the yard area -- albeit from the side -- and later the rear -- over by 50th Street. Photo ops were available of much of NYCH's equipment.
But, yes, Brooklyn Army Terminal seems to want a pre-arrangement for large groupings wanting to tour their facilities. Obviously, things change. Last year over a dozen of us went in and checked out the BAT area and did not encounter any problems with security. Too bad. Seems I'll have to get things cleared away through "channels" for any future trips.
With the exception of the BAT facilities, the group had a good time, and got to see quite a bit of the remaining Waterfront Railway operations. Believe me, the people on the trip were not disappointed.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes I do enjoy busting your chops >G
Having been shown Chambers St (on the JMZ) by Wayne( Mr Slant) it would be great to see some pictures of what it looked like in better days. It's so sad to see this jewel of the BMT in such a state. Can anyone point me in the right direction and cheer me up ?
Simon
Swindon UK
I'd have loved to see this station used to it's intended capacity, with trains from the Williamsburgh Bridge terminating at the western platform, the Brooklyn Bridge in the center platform, and the Manhattan bridge from the eastern platform. Might look like Grand Central at 8:30 AM!
I have none; we can only dream of its former greatness. And it's getting worse - concrete in the ceiling is actually powdering now. Collapse may not be far off.
The flourescent light dates from the mid-60s; the former lighting was incandescent in glass half-globes which hung down from the high ceiling. The wall on the west side dates from 1962, obscuring the original platform.
wayne
Thanks Wayne, it's such a shame.
Simon
Swindon UK
The station should be getting some sort of renovation within the next few years, if the MTA's plans to only use the two westernmost tracks between Chambers and the Bowery are correct. But judging by what's already been done at Canal Street, with only the downtown side renovated, the MTA may decide to build another false wall on the station to cut it in half before putting in the new tilework, floors and ceiling.
Chambers would be better than it is now, but nowhere near what it once was.
Not to knock the current location, but if half the station is to be unused, then (fully renovated) it would be a good location for the Transit Museum. With an annex at City Hall, you'd see the showplace terminals of the two orignial companies.
Makes sense. But then I can see lots of uses for both the Court Street stub and those Nassau Street tracks . . .
Believe it or not, the TA is renovating BOTH platforms at the Bowery station. I'd assumed that the southbound tracks from Essex through Canal were going to be the only ones used, with the northbound ones closed. Apparently not.
If they're not going to connect it to Grand, why don't they just close the station? The few times I've been through there, I've never seen anyone get on or off. Allowing Chambers St. to rot away while rebuilding a station that's so underused it probably looks exactly like it did 30 years ago (and having to spend even more $$ to rebuild Chambers later anyway) is just another creative way the MTA has seemed to come up with to waste money. (My fav.: the $$ spent to ship out the R30s.)
Bowery usage is way up, with the spreading of Chinatown. I see 12-15 people use this station on the way home now, when on a good day maybe 4 used it at the same time of day just a couple of years ago.
You're right. I actually saw 2 people on the platform today, and 6 people got off the train.
When will the MTA reopen the direct passage from the transfer to the northbound platform!!! It's very annoying to hear your train leave while you run like a rat in a maze to the back and around the wall!
When they're darn good and ready.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Believe it or not, the TA is renovating BOTH platforms at the Bowery station.]
I'm sure that the 100 or so daily riders will appreciate the work ...
I believe the renovation is for the sole purpose of keeping the station from caving in on itself... its more out of necessity.
I sure hope Chambers St. is next on the list of renovations.
Makes me wonder if they need to use the "express" tracks to terminate trains at Canal St. They did use the "express" tracks on Canal St to terminate "J" service about 10 years ago, so they may renovate BOTH sides of Canal also, if what you're say about Bowery is true.
Nick
Hello Everyone,
I will probably not be around for the summer (as defined by June 26, 2000 at about 10:30 AM until August 23, 2000 at about 1:00 PM) in that I am attending overnight camp. Yet there is a slight chance that I may post all summer, possibly under a different handle.
Have a nice summer,
Isaac Shomer
Same with me. I will be leaving tomorrow for Florida, although I'm not going to camp, and will have limited access to a computer until August 21st.
Peace out,
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.transitinfo.cjb.net
(P.S.) TrAnSiTiNfO will continually be updatd during the summer!!!
You mean to tell me that there is still sleep away camps out there?
I just heard on the Metro Channel that a car on the tracks at Covert Ave. (just west of New Hyde Park Rd.) was struck and the driver was killed. All service on the Main Line, including Port Jeff., Oyster Bay, Huntington, Ronkonkoma and Greenport is suspended pending police investigation.
Since the scene of the accident is only about 5 minutes away, I drove there to see what exectly happened.
An eastbound train (one lady who was on the train said it was the 3:29, but it had to have been the 3:49 PM out of Penn Station to Huntington) struck a car that was stuck on the tracks due to traffic at Covert Ave. supposedly due to traffic. The car was struck and became lodged under the train which travelled about another 1/4 mile and stopped with the first four cars on the platform at New Hyde Park (which was not a scheduled stop for this train - its next stop was to be at Merillon Ave., about 1-1/2 miles further east). The train did not derail, which I thought was very fortunate, since it was probably going at least 60 and probably 70, as trains usually so through this area.
I was told that the victim was a young lady, the only person in the automobile - a terrible tragedy. The car was totally flattened and, as I left, the police an other emergency people were trying to lift the train up in order to get the car out.
The Covert Avenue crossing, just west of the New Hyde Park station, has been the most frequent location for this type of accident in recent years. The traffic arrangement makes accidents virtually inevitable. However, a recent LIRR report identified the four crossings east of Mineola as a higher priority for elimination than the 3 crossings around New Hyde Park.
More trains pass thru west of Mineola than east. Why are the ones east of higher priority?
I didn't write the report for the LIRR.
I know that crossing very well, having grown up on Meacham Avenue in Elmont and travelled back and forth from my folks' house to my own places in NHP,FP etc. It is dangerous. However, something has me wondering - why would anyone venture onto railroad tracks without having sufficient room for their vehicle on the other side?
wayne
Well, why do people in Manhattan enter an intersection before there's enough clearance on the other side?
BECAUSE THEY'RE IDIOTS, that's why! It's one thing to enter an intersection where other cars and trucks are (which ususally causes more gridlock), but a whole other thing to enter into a railroad crossing!
wayne
Under NYS VTL, it's the same thing, and it's called 'spillback' Of course, the penalty for doing it at a railroad intersection is higher (both monetarily and personally)
-Hank
Why would anyone venture onto railroad tracks without having sufficient room for their vehicle on the other side?
One word - stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two reasons come to mind:
1. They didn't know any better. Beleive it or not, we were never taught that when I learned to drive. My father mentioned it off-hand one day as something his mother had drilled in to him (her father having worked for the railroad) Recall an accident out west where a school bus was stopped for a red light on the tracks. Clearly even people with CDL's do not necesarilly know this important safety rule.
2. There was someone behind them locking the horn on because they weren't riding the bumper of the car in front of them (IE, sitting on the tracks), and they got tired of listening to said horn.
I just saw a clip of this on Channel 5 news (10:05pm) and that car's a mash, all right. The train's sitting all the way up at NHP station, with the car under it, gotta be over 500 yards up the line.
My heart goes out to the victim's family, my condolences for their loss. There was no valid reason why this young woman had to die.
wayne
Perhaps the NIMBY's who have opposed grade crossing elimination should
be indicted for first degree Manslaughter.
Why?? They didn't murder anyone. I oppose grade crossing elimnation so I think thats a stupid statement!!!! Alot more people get killed at intersections than RR crossings. Does that mean we should eliminate intersections and put overpasses at every intersection???
It's important to put this incident in context. The LIRR runs hundreds of trains per day through grade crossings, in an extremely densely populated part of the country with heavy vehicular traffic and, in many cases, limited sight lines for motorists, yet grade crossing collisions are rare. So rare, in fact, that when one does occur, it gets a great deal of attention (the so-called man bites dog phenomenon).
I have (mostly) stayed out of this thread for fear of getting eaten alive, but I too detest grade crossing elimination. They are a part of the American railroad, and should not be removed because impatient people can't respect the rails as much as they do the roads. I have seen people drive around the gates, drive across w/out looking, and speed through as they are coming down. I once even saw someone park with the tail end of the car over the rail. These same motorists wouldn't dream of crossing Queens Blvd.'s 12 lanes on a red light, especially with a wall of cars heading toward them.
Well perhaps some people may not agree, but being on a train going 80mph on an El and racing above rooftops is alot more exciting than at grade level.
You haven't been on Queens Blvd lately!!! Just kiddin!!!
Nope, but the station at New Hyde Park would be a perfect candidate for a concrete elevated structure like they have at South Shore stations. There are only three grade crossings - Covert Avenue, 12th Street and New Hyde Park Road. The railroad runs between two streets - 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue with no properties on the track side, but plenty of homes, factories, a post office, etc. on the opposite side(s) of the street(s).
wayne
06/26/2000
There are plans afoot to triple track this section of line between Floral Park and Hicksville. Let's see what happens if the line is elevated or left on the ground.
Bill "Newkirk"
What about the RR crossings just south of the Main Line at NHP Rd and Covert, on the Hempstead Line? Should they be eliminated too? By the way, does anyone remember the grade crossings at Hicksville, at both 106 & 107? I was just a little kid then.
There are far fewer trains on the Hempstead Line than on the Main Line and they never are travelling at full speed since all of the crossings, except for Covert Ave. are right next to stations and I believe there is a speed restriction at Covert since the trains always seem to slow down in that area. For these reasons I don't think elevating the Hempstead Line is practical or necessary. Besides, I can just imagine the uproar from the Garden City NIMBY's!!!
I agree with Wayne that the Main Line should be elevated in New Hyde Park and, while in the process of doing so they could third track it for future use. The same goes for the 3 or 4 grade crossings that remain in Mineola. It doesn't have to look as utilitarian as the Babylon Line, either.
No, but I DO remember when the Babylon line was still on ground level through Merrick, Bellmore (raised 1976) and Massapequa Park (1980). You had grade crossings over very busy streets with Sunrise Highway running right smack dab next to the tracks. When the gates went down over Merrick Avenue, Newbridge Road or Bellmore Avenue, there would be horrendous backups spilling onto and well past the Highway.
It's always dangerous when a street runs parellel to railroad tracks and both intersect a busy street. Where the Hempstead branch crosses Nassau Boulevard, the tracks are bracketed by North and South Avenues. The traffic lights are supposed to stay red as long as the gates are down, but it doesn't always work that way. Motorists will actually honk and curse someone stopped at a green light because the gates immediately in front are down.
Variations of this condition also exist in Oceanside and East Rockaway, where Lawson Boulevard runs closely next to the Long Beach ROW and intersects three streets that cross the tracks. The Jackson Avenue crossing over the Port Jeff line at Syosset station also has many side streets running out from it.
NJT's coast line cuts through downtown Asbury Park crossing many streets at grade while paralleling a street itself. Conditions seem ripe for accidents brought about by congestion and/or impatience.
When the railroad first went through in the 1800s, no one considered that what were rural areas with little traffic or population back then would become the congested suburbs we know so well.
"Why?? They didn't murder anyone. I oppose grade crossing elimnation so I think thats a stupid statement!!!! Alot more people get
killed at intersections than RR crossings. Does that mean we should eliminate intersections and put overpasses at every
intersection??? "
No. But at busy RR crossings like many of those on the main line in western Nassau, eliminating the crossings would be safer for everybody.
I oppose most grade crossing elimination for 2 reasons.
First as a Social Darwinist I see grade crossing as valueable "Stupid Person Elimination Devices". One fewer resourse over consuming, SUV driving, open space paving Long Islander is not going to get a tear for me. I think all locomotives should be equipped with a battering ram so that they don't even have to stop after a grade crossing collission. The engineer would just call in over the radio where to send the meat wagon.
Secondly, as a railfan I love the horn sound the train makes at a grade crossing. Whenever I hear one (even faintly in the distance) my ears perk up and my hart starts racing. Because I do not have a scanner, the grade crossing whistle is my only warning of an oncomming train and as soon as I hear it I grab my camera and rush off to catch the action.
Also, the ram should be at an angle so whatever gets slammed is pushed to the side and the engineer won't have to pry it off the front of the train.
I have a scanner, but no idea what channels the railroads use, so I too use the horn as a warning. The difference is, the nearest RR crossing is 2 miles away, at 88th st bet. 76-77ave. I still can hear it.
The Police Call guide at Radio Shack has the frequencies.
LIRR frequencies are
160.380 Road (ch1)
160.395 maint
160.725 Maint
161.265 Yard
161.445 Dispatch
The nearest to my house is either the Utica Ave NJT crossing or the Station Ave Conrail crossing over in Haddon Hieghts. On some summer nights when the temp is about 65 and the humidity is about 70% the horn blasts from the 1:30 AM NJT train take on almost a mystical haunting quality as they echo throughout area. My bed used to be next to the window and I could hear it clearly at night b4 I went to be. It must be hell for the people who actually live next to the crossing. A few nights ago I heard what I though was an NJT train, but the whistling was louder and more freaquent than usual. After listning out anouther window I determined it to be a midnight coal run on the Beesley's Point Secondary. Not only could I make out the horn, but I could also hear the rumbling of the 90 coal cars. Again I'll bet the property vaules of the trackside houses are shightly lower.
It wasn't a loco that mashed up that car, it was an MU, M-1 #9528, and there was very little left of the car. That poor lady didn't have a chance.
I agree there are too many of my fellow species (over-consuming, SUV-owning, open-space-paving, aggressive-driving LI'ers). There must be something in the air and/or water that makes people behave the way they do out here. They are destroying yet another patch of original woodland, this time off Route 111 (Wheeler Road) north of the LIE in Hauppauge. For what? More "luxury housing"! Where does all this money come from and where does it go? I'd love to get me a piece of it - living paycheck-to-paycheck gets tiring after a while.
wayne
Long Island isn't the only place that is as you describe. All of southern California is that way.
Instead of luxury housing they should be building affordable and mid-income housing. There is a serious housing shortage on LI, as well as an apartment shortage and nothing is being done about it.
Once again the rich screw the poor. LI is really becoming "land of the rich" where if you don't have the $$ you're not welcome*
*or that can mean we'll pay the poor a menial wage to act as servants to clean luxury housing while they still live in squaller.
Really though, I hate what's becoming of Long Island. You have all this upscale development in northern and central parts of LI, and the malls are getting too fancy and expensive, while certain areas like Hicksville, Hempstead, and Freeport keep getting poorer and more run down. Even my old community of Levittown is now getting a rich section
(east and southeast) while the poor section gets worse (north and northwest).
What's happening just shows how the rich SUV driving snobs run Long Island and care little about anyone else that gets in their way. And of course they will do their best to crush any idea of a Nassau Hub rail transit system.
"Where does all this money come from and where does it go? "
These executive proffessionals steal the workers money by
cutting pay and hours while giving themselves a raise. And they spend it on luxury homes and SUV's, and in Roosevelt Field.
It's survival of the fittest.
Ok, let me get this straight. You are complaining about traffic and brownouts and you WANT TO BUILD DENSER LOWER COST HOUSING SO MORE PEOPLE CAN LIVE THERE??????? The next thing you'll want is more freeways and more/bigger malls and more roads to access the freeways. Luxury hosing may seem like a waste, but it will do more to preserve what is left of LI. Your plan will turn LI into a giant LA style suburb that is 90% contrete and asphalt, no trees and 100% AC. There runoff from the car habitat has killed all the natural life and where all the water has to be piped in. The reason only the rich can affory to live ther is because it is one of the few places people like you haven't paved over.
AC is good.
New York water is piped in from the Catskills and upper Westchester and Putnam.
Long Island is a beautiful place. That doesn't mean that it's all good.
A more practical plan is to take the Easter Canal planned to create Royal Island, and run it eastward, going around the nice parts of the five towns before rejoining the border. Then, it would turn east at around the LIRR main line and continue as such until some distance east of the county line. Then it would turn south and debouch into the Great South Bay. The island created would be called Rancid Island. The Sunrise Highway El would be called the Rancid Island Railroad and run into Flatbush Avenue. The Long Island Rail Road will run (including Montauk trains via the Central Branch) into Penn Station. The canal would be called the Eastern District Garbage Separation Canal. the canal would also act as a county line. It would separate Nassau County from Nasty County and Suffolk County from Suffer County.
JM - Yours is the no-sprawl, no density argument. Sorry! Can't have it both ways! People gotta live somewhere. The more dense blocks of apartments and ugly houses you see being built, the less woods and other natural areas are being bulldozed for housing. The more hi-density housing you see being built, the more people can do things without cars, and hopefully even using transit.
Enviromentally, a long island lawn is no better than a long island parking lot. Suburban development on big lots with big lawns IS sprawl. A complete disaster. We NEED denser housing.
Instead of luxury housing they should be building affordable and mid-income housing. There is a serious housing shortage on LI, as well as an apartment shortage and nothing is being done about it.
Build what will sell. Don't build something that will be sold cheap or have to be subsidized by the government.
Once again the rich screw the poor. LI is really becoming "land of the rich" where if you don't have the $$ you're not welcome
Then Long Island is a precious commodity where people want to be. If you can't afford it, move someplace else. There is no reason that people (and it's always the middle class) should subsidize the poor just so they can live where they please. If you can't afford to live on Park Avenue, don't. Don't ask for a subsidy so everyone can.
*or that can mean we'll pay the poor a menial wage to act as servants to clean luxury housing while they still live in squaller.
So what? The unskilled laborer's work is not that precious. They can easily be replaced because ANYBODY can do their work (although those qualified for better work will naturally avoid). And if squalor is all that their paycheck can afford them, it's not the fault of the employer. Squalor is a relative term anyway.
Really though, I hate what's becoming of Long Island. You have all this upscale development in northern and central parts of LI
Nice, elegant homes that are pleasing to the eye.
And the malls are getting too fancy and expensive
And people still go there. Because that's what people want and they can afford it. We should not begrudge them the natural desire to live in luxury just because you feel that everything must serve the proles.
While certain areas like Hicksville, Hempstead, and Freeport keep getting poorer and more run down.
Because that's where people DON'T want to live. So obviously the market will push the prices down to appeal to the lower income persons. Any place primarily of lower income variety will be run down. That doesn't mean it's not nice architecturally or culturally, but it will be less lavish than the wealthy areas.
Even my old community of Levittown is now getting a rich section (east and southeast) while the poor section gets worse (north and northwest).
Separation of classes has been the case throughout all of human civilization. It exists even in the Animal Kingdom. Only in pure communism (which has never occured) is there no wealth and poverty. Instead, everybody lives like crap.
What's happening just shows how the rich SUV driving snobs run Long Island and care little about anyone else that gets in their way. And of course they will do their best to crush any idea of a Nassau Hub rail transit system.
Because a Nassau Hub rail system is for people who use mass transit to get there. Mass transit is a losing proposition in Long Island thanks to it's development patterns. Long Island Bus is for the young, the old and the poor (busfanning is not transportation, it's recreation).
Where does all this money come from and where does it go?
These executive proffessionals steal the workers money by
cutting pay and hours while giving themselves a raise
I see you have a wonderful mastery of "Das Kapital."
And they spend it on luxury homes and SUV's, and in Roosevelt Field.
Everybody has a right to spend their money on whatever they want. They spend money on homes and SUVs, you spend money that hypocrite Engels makes in his factory in the standard capitalist tradition so you can spend all day researching in the British Museum reading room and then die, buried in a pauper's grave. The father of what is to become the greatest folly of the Twentieth Century.
It's survival of the fittest.
Without which we wouldn't be here. Man is not immune from the irrevocable laws of the world.
[[While certain areas like Hicksville, Hempstead, and Freeport keep getting poorer and more run down.]
[Because that's where people DON'T want to live. So obviously the market will push the prices down to appeal to the lower income persons. Any place primarily of lower income variety will be run down. That doesn't mean it's not nice architecturally or culturally, but it will be less lavish than the wealthy areas.]
John might have been overstating the case. Hempstead and Freeport have been rather down at the heels for many years. It's not as if they suddenly began to deteriorate in the last few years. And Hicksville doesn't seem like a bad place at all.
[[Even my old community of Levittown is now getting a rich section (east and southeast) while the poor section gets worse (north and northwest).]
[Separation of classes has been the case throughout all of human civilization. It exists even in the Animal Kingdom. Only in pure
communism (which has never occured) is there no wealth and poverty. Instead, everybody lives like crap.]
Once again, I didn't follow John's reasoning. I have relatives by marriage in the northwest part of Levittown, and the area certainly doesn't look poor to me (nor do other parts of the town look significantly wealthier).
I wasn't actually referring to how an area is specifically, but rather the concept.
Basically I took his word for locations, because if he's not right about a particular place, the situations obviously occurs elsewhere, and I was dealing with that elsewhere.
it seems that the person who got killed in the crash was a relative of a friend of mine. I couldn't beleive it! i felt bad after i find out because i had said some bad things about it because the crash messed up my evening. the relative had a picture of the victim which i saw at work when she showed it to me and my other co-workers. she was such a beautiful lady. i can't believe she went and killed herself like that.
Man's absolute INHUMANITY to his fellow man.
wayne
Which does not describe everyone.
The primary goal of any man is the satisfaction of the self. It is often necessary to satisfy another to achieve this. Working for someone else's satisfaction in order to achieve one's own satisfaction is one of the fundamental foundations of ANY society.
John, have you spent much time in Hempstead or Freeport? Both are far LESS run-down than they were 5-10 years ago.
CG
[I agree there are too many of my fellow species (over-consuming, SUV-owning, open-space-paving, aggressive-driving LI'ers). There must be something in the air and/or water that makes people behave the way they do out here. They are destroying yet another patch of original woodland, this time off Route 111 (Wheeler Road) north of the LIE in Hauppauge. For what? More "luxury housing"! Where does all this money come from and where does it go? I'd love to get me a piece of it - living paycheck-to-paycheck gets tiring after a while.]
Suburban sprawl may have its downside, especially with regard to making areas more car-dependent (and inhospitable to transit), but all in all it's a good thing. That's because the very existence of sprawl means that the economy is humming right along. You don't get sprawl, or indeed any other sort of private-sector development, when the economy is in the doldrums. I still have vivid memories of living in Connecticut during the "Great Recession" of the early 1990's. Sure, you didn't see open space being gobbled up, but you also had double-digit unemployment and businesses failing left and right. Sprawl would have looked mighty good back then.
With regard to Long Island residential development, one thing that somewhat puzzles me is the seeming demise of the "starter home." Even out where I am in Medford, at the fringe of the commuter zone, essentially all the new houses springing up are big expensive things with at least 2,500 square feet and all the amenities - and price tags to match. Nobody's building small or even midsized houses anymore. I suppose this is related to the scarcity and consequent high cost of land, but that doesn't make things any easier for first-time buyers.
Where's Mr Levitt when you need him??
[Where's Mr Levitt when you need him??]
If he could be reincarnated, he'd probably be building huge developments of 2,500-square-foot houses with three-car garages, center island kitchens, private bathrooms in each bedroom and cathedral ceilings. Something has changed in peoples' tastes that makes smaller houses like those in the original Levittown unattractive. Maybe it's because most of the original Levittown residents came from cramped city apartments and therefore thought that their new houses really were huge. And there's also the issue of high land prices, as Old Tom has pointed out.
Moral of the story: wanna buy a house? Better have lots of money or equity.
>>> all the new houses springing up are big expensive things with at least 2,500 square feet and all the amenities <<<
Peter;
There is a formula in the real estate business regarding the ratio of the cost of the land to the cost of the building constructed on it.
I'm not aware of what the ratio is, but to use the extreme to illustrate the mean, No one is going to put a small one bath, one bedroom starter home that costs $15,000.00 to build on a lot that costs $100,000.00 and try to sell the package for $115,000.00.
In any case, if there is no cheap land there will be no cheap single family housing unless it is subsidized by the government.
Tom
Well, there's an old story about Kruschev (sp?) that applies here.
Kruschev was in NYC at the UN, then going down to DC, I suppose for a state visit. It was decided that he would be driven; the logical route was of course the NJ turnpike. American officials did not want to go that way: they did not want Nikita to see the pollution of the refineries along the turnpike. Remember, this would have been a lot worse in the 50's or 60s than it is now.
Well, despite their worries, they ended up taking the turnpike. And their worries were misplaced: the old Marxist saw all the environmental degredation as a wonderful sign of economic development.
Suburban sprawl is an environmental disaster. Love canal and Fresh Kills landfill are also signs of productive economies. But you do not need them to have economic growth. Environmentalism could be defined as the belief that economic development today should not destroy the environment and preclude economic development tomorrow. That's sustainability. Most Nimbys, of course, don't get this.
How many more people have to die for the crossing to be eliminated? Perhaps the NIMBY's who have opposed grade crossing elimination should
be indicted for first degree Manslaughter.
No valid reason? How about blatant stupidity?
-Hank
2. There was someone behind them locking the horn on because they weren't riding the bumper of the car in front of them (IE, sitting on the tracks), and they got tired of listening to said horn.
I really get angry when people do this! My dad once backed up into someone doing this, just to shut him up.
The accident you refer to in #1 was out in Fox River Grove, a distant suburb of Chicago. About the rear 5 feet of the bus were hanging over the tracks, and got hit by a Metra express train going about 70 MPH. (And the Metra trains are massive bi-levels that must weight considerably more than the LIRR or MN coaches.) The force of the impact tore the bus body from its chassis and spun it around. Seven kids were killed in the accident.
Occasionally I sit up at the front of the MBTA Green Line trolleys and look out the front window. Every time, I'm amazed at the amount of stupidity I see by drivers and pedestrians alike. I guess they assume that a light rail vehicle can stop on a dime, or can't do as much damage as a full-size commuter train. Regardless, in an accident between a LRV and a car, I'd still put my money on the LRV. My hat is off to the Green Line T/O's who must deal with this on a daily basis.
On a somewhat related note, I'm also shocked at the way Bostonians wait until the train is fully stopped with its doors open before they decide to get up from their seat and leave the train. People in Chicago are almost always standing and waiting at the doors as the train pulls into the station, and they leave the train right away. (You wouldn't believe the looks I get from people as I get up and move toward the doors well in advance of my stop.) I'm amazed there aren't more dragging incidents in Boston from people trying to jump through closing doors.
(On a completely unrelated note, I'm happy to announce that I started a new job in the People's Repubic of Cambridge last week, and it's going well. Still, I find myself incredibly homesick for Chicago and I'm looking forward to getting back for a visit, hopefully in about two weeks. I'm already looking forward to finishing my degree and moving back to Chicago; I think that will be my main incentive to finish school as soon as possible.)
-- David
Boston, MA
Didn't know any better?!?!? It's common sense.
Sadly some people don't have much common sense.
06/27/2000
At a grade crossing in Farmingdale where the Central Branch crosses, traffic on the other side of the side was backed up. There was no room for my car to clear, yet I excercised common sense and stayed put until traffic moved. The gates didn't come down BTW, yet since I used common sense I am alive. Those who don't get killed.
Bill "Newkirk"
Are the tracks placed right next to a paralell highway with a traffic light for the road crossing the tracks? That's pretty much the most dangerous setup possible (similar to the old pre-1969 LIRR along Sunrise Highway) because cars heading towards the light usually go right up to it until it turns red, and while there's usaually enough room for one car to sit between the tracks and the light, the second one ends up stopped right on the tracks. If a third car (and a fourth, fifth and sixth car) pulls in behind the second one, that car is stuck with no place to go when the gates start to come down.
None of this changes the fact that it is both STUPID and ILLEGAL to stop a vehicle on the tracks. If there isn't enough room to clear the tracks, DON'T CROSS until there is. I for one would much rather deal with the horn of some irate driver because I didn't stop on the tracks than with the horn of a train bearing down on me because I did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, the intersection with the traffic light is a full two blocks north of the railroad crossing. Covert Avenue (the street that crosses the railroad) ends in a T at Jericho Turnpike two blocks north of the LIRR. It is a busy thoroughfare, and merges from two lanes each direction to one lane each direction right at the railroad crossing. The traffic light at Jericho Turnpike is kind of long and traffic backs up on Covert; if you aren't paying attention, you can get stuck on the tracks. And if someone honked his horn at this poor lady and scared her onto the tracks - MAY HE ROT IN HELL.
Wayne (160 Meacham Avenue Elmont 11003 NY)
It amazes me these very dangerous crossings still exist.
The lady should have gotten out of her car and ran for it. I guess fear took her over. I always worry when I'm on the N25 (and we cross the tracks) that the bus will stall.
It gets me outraged that this and other crossings on the main line have not been eliminated. It must have been scary as hell for the engineer as well. It's amazing he/she did not get hurt.
I remember reading a while back about NIMBY's blocking progress on crossing elimination. If this is true, these NIMBY's are the most evil scum of the earth. How many more people have to die and get traumatized before something is done about this?
[If this is true, these NIMBY's are the most evil scum of the earth.]
Well, I'm one of those evil scum of the earth Nimby's that are against any more Herrick's Rd fiasco's. My property taxes are high enough!!! I don't need my taxes to go towards a north shore version of the extremely ugly south shore el!!!! Why don't you personally pay for it Pal???
"Well, I'm one of those evil scum of the earth Nimby's that are against any more Herrick's Rd fiasco's. My property taxes are high
enough!!! I don't need my taxes to go towards a north shore version of the extremely ugly south shore el!!!! Why don't you
personally pay for it Pal???"
Exactly why I can't stand the north shore and the backward people that live around here. People's lives are less important than the "beautiful scenery".
I go to Pathmark at 10 at night and wait 30 minutes on a long line, because some NIMBY's like you oppose new supermarkets, because they "ruin the historic district of Roslyn".
My Mom can't stand working in the pharmacy there since it handles 10 times it's load because there's no other pharmacy around.
My power goes out all the time because stupid NIMBY's oppose cutting down trees, so I have ruined food and darkness, so NIMBY's can have their trees.
I like the south shore because people that live there don't fight modernization for their individual interests. They have a safe, fast, and reliable LIRR line. They have plenty of supermarkets and drug stores so there is no overcrowding. The power stays on most of the time. And I don't have the unsightly overgrown bushes and shrubs that I now live with.
You like the north shore you can have it! As soon as I get the chance I'm outta this dump and back to a place where common sense takes precedence, and I can get a train that runs every 30 minutes and doesn't creep at 25mph.
06/27/2000
[I like the south shore because people that live there don't fight modernization for their individual interests. They have a safe, fast, and reliable LIRR line.]
I live on the south shore (Massapequa) and everything you said rings true. The last grade crossing (Massapequa Park) was eliminated in 1980 and for frequency of service, nothing beats the LIRR Babylon Branch. However, the drawback is 14 stations from Lynbrook to Babylon to make the ride kinda long.
Bill "Newkirk"
Its advocates of sprall like you who are turning this country into a giant mini-mall where trees become street lights and open space is paved over just so some yuppies won't get their SUV's stuck in traffic and so they can run their AC at full blast all summer.
"run their AC at full blast all summer."
Air conditioning should be like heat. It should be considered a necessity and not a luxury.
It sure was a luxury fifty years ago. Absolutely nothing, els, subways, streetcars or buses were the same temperature or hotter than the air outside. Most business places were not air conditioned, but A/C was beginning to catch on. Movie theaters were about the only thing that was 100% air conditioned, and they made the most of it with blue and white banners hanging from the marquees advertising "It's COOL inside".
There was nothing hotter than a Horn & Hardart with no A/C at lunchtime. Many people used to eat their lunch in the shady spots of Trinity Churchyard at Broadway and Wall St.
A/C is wonderful, but somehow we survived then without it!
The technologically impaired past should not be a model for the present. It is considered inhuman not to have running water in one's home. At one point NO ONE had running water. Does that mean that we shouldn't have running water because people lived without it?
I'm sure people are spoiled by being able to go to the bathroom only steps from their bedrooms.
There are probably several thousand subway cars in New York with A/C. On any given day there are bound to be several dozen in service with A/C inoperable. My suggestion was that this is not a crisis, and life will go on.
You have missed a real treat if you have never had the opportunity to make the trek to the little building in the back yard in the middle of winter.
I'm going to log off now so I can clean the chimneys on my oil lamps before it gets dark! :-)
When the trains had ceiling fans and open windows they weren't so bad. But then they started with the small desk type fans on the R10, R11, & R12 and then the terrible vent type fans that just blew hot air on you.
"terrible vent type fans that just blew hot air on you."
Would the R-16's fall in that category?
I don't have AC and I'm just fine. If it gets too hot I turn on a fan or go down into my basement (something EVERY home should have, even b4 AC).
I hate yuppies! And I hate SUV's, in fact I think they should be banned. I guess you're another one of those tree hugging preservationists. Well I am pro-development. I believe that the good of the public at large should go before a wealthy minority who happens to be very narrow minded.
We're talking about a RR crossing here, that is dangerous and totally unneccesary. More people ride the train, and commute through that interesection than the people that live there. It should be imminent domain. Either they agree to it or they can be fined or arrested.
I'll admit I hate NIMBY's. They have mass transit, they'll complain about that beautiful LRT system they have in NJ(I'd like to run those LRT here in Nassau), or they will make LIRR spend money just to get new horns when other things are more important. They will oppose adding neccesary stores (like supermarkets and pharmacies). They also make projects so scaled down that they fail. Case in point is the Broadway Mall. NIMBY's have blocked the expansions a long time ago. The result is a small, inferior mall that can't compete with rival Roosevelt Field. The new JC Penney store is only 1 level, the only such of Penny's mall stores that is so small. Because NIMBY's next door did not want to look at buildings. Result is the mall does poorly, and the whole Hicksville area is becoming run down because people shop elsewhere. NIMBY's even oppose putting new power plants in Queens, even though the electric for NY depends on it. I lose power all the time because some NIMBY's oppose removing trees that threaten distribution lines.
NIMBY's shouldn't have a right to thwart the general good of the community for their selfish interests. Individual freedom has gone too far, and it is now holding back a greater power, social freedom.
First of all my local area here in the fashionable suburbs of South Jersey have trees around most of the power lines and we rarely get power outages. The trees along the road that provide shade and beauty are well worth the occasional cost of a power outage. Trees provide an alternative to sitting in your AC'd house on hot days. Furthermore although malls are convienent they promote our driver society and run small local stores in the centre of town out of bussiness. Malls should be few and far between and should be pratonized only when absolutely necessary instead of being the destination/hangout they are today.
One thing I can't stand about malls is food courts. They have the same generic renditions of food. Sbarro is crap, their pizza is so fake, I'd much rather have a regular pizza place (like in a downtown or strip mall). Also the chinese food in malls is horrible. They have only a fraction of what a take out place has and their food is inferior. And I can't stomach McDonald's. I miss Wendy's in Flushing, who knows if it'll ever reopen, now they only have McDonald's and Burger King which I can't stand. Also the chinese and pizza places are expensive there. I remember always taking the 7 train back to Flushing and eating in Wendy's, but it's seems something is gone from there since the horrible shooting.
Most malls are all the same, they should try being different from eachother instead of copying each other.
I do prefer smaller shopping centers or strip malls and downtowns, but in summer it's gets hot outside. But in general I'm bored in malls. I'd rather railfan and shop in cheap stores, not look in expensive ones I can never afford.
That's why I like to go to NYC, ride the subway and shop in plenty of inexpensive different stores that are in Chinatown for example. Much more interesting than going to the mall. I just wish it wouldn't be so darn hot.
I hate yuppies!
I hate commies. And other radical leftists who oppose civil liberties at the cost of unattainable social utopia.
And I hate SUV's, in fact I think they should be banned.
Wow, something we agree on. Although since I support individual liberties as opposed to the homogenous collective you do, I don't believe SUVs should be banned.
I guess you're another one of those tree hugging preservationists.
Come back to me when you invent a machine that can convert Carbon Dioxide to useful energy with pure Oxygen as the only emmission.
Well I am pro-development. I believe that the good of the public at large should go before a wealthy minority who happens to be very narrow minded.
You are Pol Pot* calling the kettle black. How is it that YOU are not a minority that happens to be very narrow minded? How do you know what the public wants?
We're talking about a RR crossing here, that is dangerous and totally unneccesary. More people ride the train, and commute through that interesection than the people that live there. It should be imminent domain. Either they agree to it or they can be fined or arrested.
Nah, arresting and jailing costs money. Just have the NKVD come to their doors and either blow their brains out or ship them to Siberia.
I'll admit I hate NIMBY's.
Repitition is a poor form of emphasis.
They have mass transit, they'll complain about that beautiful LRT system they have in NJ (I'd like to run those LRT here in Nassau)...
I won't repeat my quote about beauty and beholders. Why should one suffer because they've been saddled with the burden of living beside a line they have no use for? They are close enough to Exchange Place to make the light rail useless to them.
....or they will make LIRR spend money just to get new horns when other things are more important.
Do not expect everyone to care for everyone, everybody has their own scale of importances. How would you like it if I drove by your house every hour blasting a loud, obnoxious horn where previously the horn was more sensible? You are no less sybaritic than those you callously detract.
They will oppose adding neccesary stores (like supermarkets and pharmacies). They also make projects so scaled down that they fail. Case in point is the Broadway Mall. NIMBY's have blocked the expansions a long time ago. The result is a small, inferior mall that can't compete with rival Roosevelt Field. The new JC Penney store is only 1 level, the only such of Penny's mall stores that is so small. Because NIMBY's next door did not want to look at buildings. Result is the mall does poorly, and the whole Hicksville area is becoming run down because people shop elsewhere.
YOU are one of those people who complains about traffic! A mall expansion obviously adds it.
NIMBY's even oppose putting new power plants in Queens, even though the electric for NY depends on it.
Hack, cough, wheez. If the proposed plants were nuclear, I'd understand the irrationality in the opposition.
I lose power all the time because some NIMBY's oppose removing trees that threaten distribution lines.
As opposed to you who threatens removing trees to prevent the harm from distribution lines. I'll agree with you if you want a fossil fuel power plant in your backyard. Since you don't...
NIMBY's shouldn't have a right to thwart the general good of the community for their selfish interests. Individual freedom has gone too far, and it is now holding back a greater power, social freedom.
ALL HAIL STALIN!*
ALL HAIL MAO!*
* I apologize for using murderous fiends in my attempt to prove a point like certain a anencephalic not in the state legislature, but these people advocated the same "Social Freedom" that Comrade John advocates in his posting. Such prophecies are dangerous, and this must be conveyed whenever the matter comes up.
>I hate yuppies!
A specific term here applied to the upper middle class, of all ages in suburbs. Not at all what it means.
>I hate commies.
Oh good grief. Look up the word. Communists are NOT "people to the left of you politically, who you strongly disagree with." Learn to make a real arguement and stop calling names.
There's a difference here. His comments weren't just left, they were totally those supported by communists.
I wouldn't have made that comment before he decided to note that executives make money by stealing from laborers.
He's also praised Communist China and I guess you didn't notice his comment on "Social Freedom."
Maybe I've been a little hard on you, but you have to see where I'm coming from. I don't like riding or driving on a busy road that crosses a busy RR line. I feel unsafe. If I were an engineer who had to do 80mph because I was running late, and have to worry about a car stuck on tracks, it would be more added stress and a risk to my passengers.
You call the south shore Babylon line El ugly, I think it is beautiful. I like modern things like elevated trains and subways. I like modern, spacious supermarkets and stores to shop in. I prefer to have neat lawns instead of messy ones with shrubs blocking sidewalks.
The difference of opinion that we have is the same I have with most other residents on the north shore. They like small quaint stations like Sea Cliff, and I like modern electrified ones like Wantagh.
A difference of opinion it may be, but some things are really important.
You claim a south shore El is ugly. But what's more important, the appearence of a train line or how safe it is. Most people with common sense put safety first. If you did not want to be disrupted by train line construction, why do you live by one?
Having a reliable food supply is also important. Most people with common sense believe that having only one supermarket serving four different communities (such as Pathmark in Greenvale, serves Greenvale, Roslyn, East Hills, and Brookville) The result is long lines, overcrowding, and low stock. If there was a storm, there'd be a serious shortage. But because of people who "oppose change", things like Stop and Shop were stopped by snooty Roslynites who want to preserve history, even if it gets in the way of common sense.
Same thing with trees. Branches are all around power lines, and they arc over roads. Glen Cove road in Greenvale is a good example. It's the only way out in an emergency and alot of tree branches would come down in a storm blocking access. But preserving trees is more important than emergency access in a storm.
Glen Cove avenue floods easily in rain because the "Harbor lovers" don't want oil runoff into the harbor from new drains, once again a stupid harbor goes before access. Anybody who's been up here in Sea Cliff/Glen Cove knows how bad the traffic situation is. Partially because so many people drive to other LIRR branches than take the OB because of it's poor service. Perhaps if NIMBY's didn't oppose electrification we'd have better service. Again, a pretty view of boring old town stuff goes before reliable rail transportation.
When will you NIMBY people learn that safety and essentials are more important than a pretty view!!!
Stop NIMBY's
Join http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
Maybe I've been a little hard on you, but you have to see where I'm coming from. I don't like riding or driving on a busy road that
crosses a busy RR line. I feel unsafe. If I were an engineer who had to do 80mph because I was running late, and have to worry
about a car stuck on tracks, it would be more added stress and a risk to my passengers.
You call the south shore Babylon line El ugly, I think it is beautiful. I like modern things like elevated trains and subways. I like
modern, spacious supermarkets and stores to shop in. I prefer to have neat lawns instead of messy ones with shrubs blocking
sidewalks.
The difference of opinion that we have is the same I have with most other residents on the north shore. They like small quaint
stations like Sea Cliff, and I like modern electrified ones like Wantagh.
A difference of opinion it may be, but some things are really important.
You claim a south shore El is ugly. But what's more important, the appearence of a train line or how safe it is. Most people with
common sense put safety first. If you did not want to be disrupted by train line construction, why do you live by one?
Having a reliable food supply is also important. Most people with common sense believe that having only one supermarket serving
four different communities (such as Pathmark in Greenvale, serves Greenvale, Roslyn, East Hills, and Brookville) The result is
long lines, overcrowding, and low stock. If there was a storm, there'd be a serious shortage. But because of people who "oppose
change", things like Stop and Shop were stopped by snooty Roslynites who want to preserve history, even if it gets in the way of
common sense.
Same thing with trees. Branches are all around power lines, and they arc over roads. Glen Cove road in Greenvale is a good
example. It's the only way out in an emergency and alot of tree branches would come down in a storm blocking access. But
preserving trees is more important than emergency access in a storm.
Glen Cove avenue floods easily in rain because the "Harbor lovers" don't want oil runoff into the harbor from new drains, once
again a stupid harbor goes before access. Anybody who's been up here in Sea Cliff/Glen Cove knows how bad the traffic situation
is. Partially because so many people drive to other LIRR branches than take the OB because of it's poor service. Perhaps if
NIMBY's didn't oppose electrification we'd have better service. Again, a pretty view of boring old town stuff goes before reliable
rail transportation.
When will you NIMBY people learn that safety and essentials are more important than a pretty view!!!
Stop NIMBY's
Join http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
P.S.:Reworded title and reposted don't know if first one went through, having connection problems, urgggh, must be the phone lines. I lose connection alot since I moved to Sea Cliff. Must be old phone lines!
I don't live on the North Shore, I live in East Meadow, pretty much in the middle. I'm equidistant to both the South Shore Line and the Main Line and I find the Main Line much more convenient except for the parking. I have no idea how trees, supermarket lines, electric vs diesel, power lines, etc. got into a discussion about grade crossing elimination. As far as the Oyster Bay Line is concerned, electrifying it would not make the service better than lets say the P.Wash Branch. The reason its such poor service is the layout. After a 25 mile ride from Penn to Mineola it becomes a North South line for many miles without going any further out to the island. Sort of like the West Hempstead or Far Rockaway Lines. They are electrified but are extremely slow and seldom go to Penn. With the advent of dual mode there are more one seat ride trains to Penn from O.B. than W Hempstead or Far Rockaway. I wonder how tedius the ride to Rockaway Park was from Penn in the 50's after the fire but before the IND when trains went through Nassau to Rockaway Park) As a matter of fact I remember when the only electric trains on the Main Line only went on the Oyster Bay Line (albeit only to East Williston) Anything E/O Mineola on the Main Line towards Carle Place & Westbury was diesel. (Or steam before '55)
Perhaps the OB line should be a shuttle. Trains could run more frequently and you change from a diesel to an electric at Mineola. Actually I think LIRR may be phasing this in, I now notice alot of OB trains now terminate at Mineola. But I just wish service would increase. The line is so depressing, there should be a way to increase ridership. Why not have OB shuttle trains have a $1.50 fare and allow Xfer to buses at Mineola? Or make it like SIRT, pay fare only if going beyond Mineola?
[As far as the Oyster Bay Line is concerned, electrifying it would not make the service better than lets say the P.Wash Branch. The reason its such poor service is the layout. After a 25 mile ride from Penn to Mineola it becomes a North South line for many miles without going any further out to the island.]
Much the same is true for the Port Jefferson line. It has a fairly meandering route and therefore will never offer as fast a ride as the main line even if it were electrified.
Maybe you should stop blaming thge people who want to protect our natural envrionment and blame all the people who have fled the city looking for "space" and have overtaxed the existing infrasturcture. The old locals never seemed to have a problem, but now that all these new folks with their disposable income and this "I should never be inconvienenced because I'm important, have money and just plain better" attitude want to come in rip up everything that made the place nice. You'd think that with the SUBs' 4 wheel drive and all you wouldn't be complaining aboot floods and fallen limbs.
Perhaps you should see the pharmacy where my Mom works. There is constant people coming, just like you describe. Snotty, SUV driving yuppies who complain about long waits for medication, yet oppose new pharmacies. THEY WANT THEIR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!
And nobody opposes building all these new big homes. Also the NIMBY environmentalists in my area are out to lunch when it comes to building new luxury housing. However they always complain when new AFFORDABLE housing is being built. They don't like that.
Why? Because the NIMBY's are the rich, SUV driving snobs. I see the Jaguar and Expedition outside the NIMBY HQ (Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor) everyday!
They oppose supermarkets, pharmacies, affordable housing, or mass transit, but they don't have a problem with all the new luxury housing going up, or building new fancy stores which sell expensive crap no one needs.
This is the harsh truth about NIMBY's. They are nothing but arrogant, anti-mass transit snobs.
You could have our MTA. When the Light Rail was being built, the NIMBYs in Ruxton and Riderwood objected and tried to block the line.
When that failed, they tried other ways to halt the progress. The MTA won, and the NIMBYs then wanted the cars to run at 45 MPH through the area. The MTA ok'ed that, but refused to build stops in Ruxton and Riderwood. As you pass Falls Road northbound or Lutherville southbound, you see a trackside sign that says NSR 45. Officially that means Neighborhood Speed Restriction, but unofficially it means No Stop Riderwood or No Stop Ruxton.
That was in 1992. It's now 2000, there's still no stops in Ruxton and Riderwood. Double tracking of the line is now proceeding. Damned if the NIMBYs didn't try to block that. They lost again.
(That was in 1992. It's now 2000, there's still no stops in Ruxton and Riderwood. Double tracking of the line is now proceeding. Damned if the NIMBYs didn't try to block that. They lost again.)
Perhaps the passengers can celebrate by mooning out the LRV windows as they go by. In NYC, the over-reaction to Robert Moses just gave the NIMBY's too much power. In the 1950s, Moses could have built an expressway through Central Park and no one could have stopped it. As it is, virtually anything requires as much procedural bullshit as building an expressway through the park.
New York seems to go from one ridiculous extreme to another.
The passengers don't give a s***. They don't live in either Ruxton or Riderwood. The few rational folks (the ones that support Light Rail) get the cold shoulder from the Ruxton-Riderwood Community Association, which has been hijacked by the NIMBYs.
Interesting NIMBY arguement that was refuted:
One of the "complaints" was that the trains would be too noisy. The old Pennsy/Northern Central station for Lutherville is right next to the tracks. The R-R NIMBYS contacted the owner after the line opened about the "noisy Light Rail trains". The owner replied that he couldn't even hear the LRV's as they passed. The owner's family will wave if they are out in the yard.
The R-R folks left in disgust.
(One of the "complaints" was that the trains would be too noisy.)
Perhaps you think your NIMBYs are the most selfish and irrational. How about the folks in Brooklyn Heights who are fighting a proposed waterfront park because some people might WALK down their street? Jorolemon St sloped down to the waterfront under the BQE. The plan is to close it to through vehicular traffic, cutting off an existing route, but make it a pedestrian entrance to the park for those walking from the subway. The "community" wants the whole thing blocked off. The Brooklyn Heights Association isn't even NIMBY enough for these folks -- they've been bought off.
Has anybody figured out that the objections of the folks protesting the park is actually thinly veiled racism. "because some people might WALK down their street?" That term means "people who aren't like us", and we ALL know what that means.
We've heard that "some people" arguement before.
(Has anybody figured out that the objections of the folks protesting the park is actually thinly veiled racism.)
Or classism. My father in law, who is white and grew up working class in Flatbush, said that in the early 1950s if you were on the street in Brooklyn Heights and "didn't look like you belonged there" a cop would come over and ask why you were there. If the answer wasn't good enough, you got a rap in the behind with a nightstick and an escort out of the neighborhood.
Same place, same stuff, different skin tone.
Maybe that means that they don't want people making noise and kids yelling on their way to their park. They want their neighborhoods to be a quiet place. You just assume because they want to block a plan, they have to be racist?! Thats very ignorant of you.
Look at the other facts before jumping to skin color because that doesn't make you look very good, does it?
Probably also explains the current opposition of the Nassau Hub light rail line idea by Garden City residents, since the line may go to Hempstead, and the rich white snobs in Garden City wouldn't want folks from Hempstead in their neighborhood.
Also explains why there is no LI Bus route that serves upper Glen Cove on Forest avenue where the two supermarkets are, because people there don't want downtowners in their neighborhood.
[NIMBYism as disguised racism]
[Probably also explains the current opposition of the Nassau Hub light rail line idea by Garden City residents, since the line may go to Hempstead, and the rich white snobs in Garden City wouldn't want folks from Hempstead in their neighborhood.]
Could be, although I've pretty much gotten the impression that no one's really gung-ho for the Nassau Hub light rail except for a few planners. Most people who've considered the idea probably realize that it would be an expensive way of *not* solving problems.
Please don't dignify them by calling them environmentalists!
I saw the train in question at Hillside this morning. It was recognizable because of the soot marks on the front of car #9526. The eight-car consist was just west of the main shop building, moving westbound without passengers at a slow speed. Most likely, it was clearing a switch in order to proceed into the shop building for NTSB inspection.
Oh yeah, a terrible tradgedy that she got her license without understanding a basic rule of the road:
DON'T BLOCK THE INTERSECTION!
-Hank
So THAT's what happened! I was driving north on New Hyde Park Road this afternoon at about 5:00, when I noticed a huge backup of cars in front of me approaching the crossing (whose gates were down and lights flashing), while cars were passing by freely southbound. As we inched closer, we noticed many emergency vehicles, and policemen directing traffic through the crossing.
I figured it was just another malfunctioning crossing, but when I crossed the tracks, noticed an the front car of an eastbound train sitting halfway back in the station. A little later, the WINS traffic report announced suspension on the Ronkonkoma branch because of a police investigation at Covert Street [sic]. A 'police investigation' on the LIRR ALWAYS means a fatal accident.
I know that crossing well, and all too often northbound Covert Avenue traffic gets backed up all the way from the long red light at Jericho Turnpike to the tracks- a good two blocks. Of course, people ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO KEEP THE TRACKS CLEAR- or if they stop short of the tracks get honked mercilessly.
I just saw Channel 11's ten-o-clock report. Service is still suspended due to investigation.
Unfortunately there will always be people that are stupid and start going even though they will not be able to clear the tracks.
There's only one answer to this problem. A grade crossing elimination.
With the elimination cars would be able to move freely without waiting for the train to pass, engineers wouldn't have to worry about having a car stuck on the tracks, and general public safety would not be in danger. These idiots who stop on the tracks don't just jepordize their own lives but those on the train as well. If the train derailed alot of people on the train could've gotten hurt, maybe even killed.
What is holding up grade crossing elimination on the main line?
Also New Hyde Park road has a similar problem, a back-up at the Jericho Tpke traffic light. Can anything be done to shorten the light?
Those grade crossings should have been eliminated a long time ago. In a place that combines alot of vehicle traffic and trains that go pretty fast it is a recipe for danger.
Exactly why have they not eliminated the grade crossings? Let me take a guess. NIMBYs.
A grade crossing free, three track to Hicksville system would be a *dream*, especially if they could get 100mph running too.
It would also be an engineering feat to do it without intteruprting service. I'd LOVE to see this happen, just to see how they do it.
[Those grade crossings should have been eliminated a long time ago. In a place that combines alot of vehicle traffic and trains that go pretty fast it is a recipe for danger.
Exactly why have they not eliminated the grade crossings? Let me take a guess. NIMBYs.]
Remember the Herricks Road grade crossing elimination? Years behind schedule and monstrously over budget.
There are new pictures on the Kenosha PCC page from the Grand Opening on June 17, 2000.
The page is www.nycsubway.org/pcc/kenosha.html
Congratulations on completing your project.
I used to live in Milwaukee and I did a lot of consulting work in Racine and and an ocassional swing into Kenosha. All you have to do now, is work your way up the line and reestablish the MRK line.
Great news, keep up the good work.
Joe, I noticed that the shot of the car painted in Cincinnati colours still had the TTC route sign (but not the destination sign). Do the other cars still show the TTC signs?
The number signs are in the cars but the railfans stole the destination signs from the cars prior to them leaving Totonto. They also stole tail lights, tunnel lights, dash ID signs, transfrer cutters and other things that are hard to replace when getting the cars ready for service.
A list of Cincinatti and Chicago destination sign readings would be nice to recreate the listings for the cars painted in the colors from their respective systems.
We are also looking for paint color and destination sign information about Johnstown PA and Loisville KY.
Has anybody been to Melbourne and Sydney Australia and riddent their trams and subway lines.???
As a resident of Sydney - can I help?
Our electrified city rail transit system is basically worked by double-deck MU cars, not unlike the new LIRR loco-hauled stainless-steel cars. Voltage is 1,500v DC overhead collection. Trains work out to about 34-6 miles from the City and apart from current collection is similar to the LIRR/Metrorail with tunnels in the inner city area and surface elsewhere.
There is a small light rail line in the inner city area which is being extended (but more experimental than anything else.)
Melbourne is similar with an underground city loop of four tracks and all other tracks on the surface; also 1,500v DC O'h. Cars there are all single-deck about 70ft long with three sets of doors per side not unlike NY subway cars.
Melbourne, of course, has a street tram system with some off-street light rail operation of the street trams, mainly modern 2-unit artic units with German equipment.
There are many web pages available both officially and by enthusiasts, including 'aus.rail'. Have a look!
Hi All,
I'm an Australian getting a first hand look at New York and it's subways by living here for a couple of years. I have not forgotten home, so hre are some useful links. Seems like IAB has cleared up the technical stuff, but here goes.
The Sydney equilvalent of the MTA
http://www.cityrail.nsw.gov.au/
Sydney Light Rail
http://www.sleeper.apana.org.au/railway/slr/
Note, we DO have a line to the airport which was completed this year, all underground serving both the International and Domestic terminals
General Stuff about rail in Aus
http://www.railpage.org.au/
Allan
I took some measurements designed to quantify additional dwell time required at Union Square due to the gap fillers.
There is a about a 5 second delay between when a car stops and when the conductor opens the doors. This delay is due entirely to the gap fillers.
I measured the retraction delay as follows. There is usually a signal at the front of each station. I measured the time interval between when the motorman releases the brake (audible sound) and the time that train clears this signal as recorded by the tripper arm rising (audible sound). This averages out to 25 seconds for a normal station. The average for the Union Sq expresses was 40 seconds. Thus, I conclude that the gap fillers add an additional 15 seconds effective dwell time on departure. This figure is confirmed by measuring the interval from brake release to gap filler signal clear.
Both the physical extension and retraction times are around 2 seconds. It would appear that around 10 seconds could be saved by having an improved mechanism for signalling the gap fillers to retract.
The total additional dwell time introduced by the gap fillers is 20 seconds. I have not yet measured the rush hour loading time at this station. However, I'd expect it to be less than 30 seconds, based on measurements at other stations.
At this point, the total dwell time of around 50 seconds will not prevent 30 tph. However, speeding up the retraction process should provide a big improvement for fairly low cost.
You forget that many times, the T/O has to pull up to an exact spot to trigger the GF, and many times will undershoot and have to pull up slightly, causing an additional waste of about 5 seconds.
You forget that many times, the T/O has to pull up to an exact spot to trigger the GF, and many times will undershoot and have to pull up slightly, causing an additional waste of about 5 seconds.
I have not observed this phenomenon. I have measured the time interval between the instant the front of a train enteres a station to when it comes to a complete stop. There are differences due to T/O variability. However, I have observed no statistical difference between Union Sq and other stations for this parameter.
I measured the retraction delay as follows. There is usually a signal at the front of each station. I measured the
time interval between when the motorman releases the brake (audible sound) and the time that train clears this
signal as recorded by the tripper arm rising (audible sound). This averages out to 25 seconds for a normal station.
The average for the Union Sq expresses was 40 seconds. Thus, I conclude that the gap fillers add an additional 15
seconds effective dwell time on departure. This figure is confirmed by measuring the interval from brake release
to gap filler signal clear.
I don't think this is a valid way to measure the day attributed
solely to the gap filler retraction. Riding through there nearly
every day, I'd say the delay is about 2-3 seconds, depending on
T/O proficiency. Your measurements are affected by a number of
other factors. First off, the distance the rear car of a train
must travel beyond the signal before the trip arm goes up is
a function of the length of the retaining track circuit, which
depends on the particulars of that signal installation. More
importantly, this sort of measurement is obviously a strong
function of the speed profile achieved by the train on leaving.
At Union Sq s/b, there is a speed restriction of, I think, 20
until just before Astor Place. Most t/o will pull out of Union
Sq. in series because of this. That slow speed is not because
of the gap fillers, but the sharp right-hand curve south of the
station.
Your observations are certainly valid. I was also surprised at the large discrepency between the extension and retraction times. That is why I took a direct reading measured the time that the T/O started and the time that the gap filler signal cleared - permitting the T/O to proceed. It was around 14 seconds.
I'd say the delay is about 2-3 seconds...
That had been my been my recollection but I preferred to take readings before pronouncing a judgement. We both agree that total the gap filler delay should be less than 10 seconds. Would you not agree that these 10 seconds will not make any difference in being able to operate at 30 tph service levels?
That is why I took a direct reading measured the time that the T/O
started and the time that the gap filler signal cleared - permitting the T/O to proceed. It was
around 14 seconds.
You mean from the moment the train began to move to the moment
the GF signal cleared was 14 seconds? That sounds excessive.
I'll try to reproduce your results....this was the s/b express?
Would you
not agree that these 10 seconds will not make any difference in being able to operate at 30 tph
service levels?
That depends. First, what's the queueing model being used?
A simple first-cut analysis says that to maintain 30 tph, the
total station dwell time must be under 120 seconds. Now, those
extra 10 seconds might not make a difference if the actual
average dwell time was down around 90 seconds, but Union Sq
is a long dwell station stop even without the GF because of the
narrow platforms, narrow stairs, and intersection of other lines.
But where did you get 30 tph?? If that's supposed to be the
current peak service level on the s/b express, I think you are
way low. I have no actual data on these things, but I'm sure
the TA does. One heuristic, though, that would indicate that Union
Sq. is a bottleneck at the present service levels is to look at
the average backup during the peak hour north of the station.
You mean from the moment the train began to move to the moment the GF signal cleared was 14 seconds? That sounds excessive. I'll try to reproduce your results....this was the s/b express?
Actually, I waited to hear the brake discharge for the start. That may add a second but I felt it a more reproducible starting point than trying to discern movement. I'm talking about the s/b express. You can get a clear view of the GF signal from the front of the s/b/ platform or from the uptown platform, if there is no train sitting there.
Please try to take your own readings. I want to have agreement on the facts. There will be plenty of opportunity to disagree about their implication.
First, what's the queueing model being used?...
Current operation is in the 24-26 tph range. The 1954 service levels were 32 tph. Returning to the 1954 levels would eliminate all the overcrowding on the Lex. The Union Sq gap fillers have been proposed as one reason for today's poor performance - even though they were in place back in 1954.
There are MTA proposals to eliminate them by rebuilding the Union Sq complex. I would think that the gap fillers' effect on service levels could be quantified without blowing $100 million+ on first removing them.
I would assume that rush hour door open time at Union Sq is around 30 seconds - I haven't measured that yet. This figure is comparable to Grand Central and 59th St - which I have measured. My own model suggests that an effective door open time of 60 seconds could be tolerated at 30 tph before a trailing train would encounter a yellow aspect. A total delay of less than 25 seconds due to the gap fillers should not hinder 30 tph operation but might be marginal. There should be no question regarding 30 tph operation, if this delay were reduced to below 10 seconds.
All this stuff is cumulative -- gap fillers, curves, crowding, door holding. At some point in the line, there is always the possibility that it will occur in sequence, and cause a traffic jam. The closer to get to capacity, the more likely a jam is to occur. So you need a cushion to allow recovery.
It's no different on the highway, where rush hour conditions, combined with slowing due to a curve, a puddle, or (at Mill Basin) a slight decelration to get the view from a draw bridge, can cause a cascading effect and a massive delay.
So it makes sense to try to take some of these factors away.
All this stuff is cumulative -- gap fillers, curves, crowding, door holding. At some point in the line, there is always the possibility that it will occur in sequence, and cause a traffic jam. The closer to get to capacity, the more likely a jam is to occur. So you need a cushion to allow recovery.
The present system is capable of 40 tph with 30 second loading times. The cushion is to reduce schedules to 30 tph. This provides an additional 30 second cushion. The stations that I've surveyed exhibit significantly less average loading time than 30 seconds. There is sufficient leeway at present to accommodate 30 tph.
The key to providing high service levels is to reduce variability between successive trains. Speed variations along the route to permit curves should not reduce service levels, provided the signal system is designed to compensate for such variations.
It's no different on the highway, where rush hour conditions, combined with slowing due to a curve, a puddle, or (at Mill Basin) a slight decelration to get the view from a draw bridge, can cause a cascading effect and a massive delay.
The difference is that the spacing between cars on a highway is significantly less than once every 90 to 120 seconds for 40 - 30 tph. At 2000 vehicles per lane per hour highway spacing is 1.8 seconds. Your analogy is is not similar enough for an adequate comparison. Five car lengths at 50 mph is 1.3 seconds. A 10 second delay will effect at least 5 cars on a highway. A 10 second delay will not make 1 wit of difference for the subway.
So it makes sense to try to take some of these factors away.
Would it not be better to first estimate how much of a problem these factors present? Of course, if one has unlimited money...
(Would it not be better to first estimate how much of a problem these factors present? Of course, if one has unlimited money...)
In New York, only the health care industry gets unlimited money, or at least it used to. For anything else, it matters not how big the problem is.
I find it puzzling that they're planning to eliminate the gap fillers rather than improve them, although I believe that at least some station reconstruction is necessary because of unsafe conditions at the narrow ends of the platforms.
One possible additional factor--because passengers must clear the gap fillers before they retract, the conductor may take extra time after the doors close to insure that passengers are free before he signals the TO.
I find it puzzling that they're planning to eliminate the gap fillers rather than improve them...
I think they are putting up a straw man to deflect criticism for running insufficient service.
[I think they are putting up a straw man to deflect criticism for running insufficient service.]
I think you're right. Ditto for the new signal system.
In general, it seems that politicians and agencies would prefer to spend vast sums of money for political ends than offer actual service improvements. Just look at that $1.1 billion "study"!
There was an article not long ago in the Post which quoted an MTA spokesman as saying nothing could be done about subway overcrowding short of building an entirely new railroad, and the reporter didn't think to question his assertion. I wrote them a letter with some of the facts and figures you've posted here, but naturally they didn't print it.
It seems to me that the MTA's natural ally in all of this is the unwillingness of the public to believe that a problem so easily solved would be ignored.
I had a chance to do a limited repeat of Stephen's measurements
on the s/b express. Time from stop to door open 5-7 seconds,
in agreement with Stephen's results. I also measured the time
between the moment the t/o took power (judged by looking into
the cab from the platform) and the GF signal clearing. Also
5-7 seconds (less than Stephens 10-15 second figure). The distance
from the stop marker to the GF signal is about 50 ft. Therefore,
only 1 or 2 seconds are lost as opposed to if the t/o had wrapped
it up from the mark.
Conclusion: when working properly, the GF at Union Sq add about
10 seconds to the dwell time. s/when/if/
I'm grateful for the corroboration. I think we'll both have to precisely define our experimental techniques, if the few seconds discrepency between our readings ever becomes substantive.
The bottom line is that elimination of these gap fillers by themselves will result in a 10 second reduction dwell time. Let us hope that all future posters use this figure in their proposals for improving Lex service.
(The bottom line is that elimination of these gap fillers by themselves will result in a 10 second reduction dwell time.)
If the gap fillers take 5-7 seconds on each end, that doesn't mean 10 seconds it means 10 to 14. Besides, you have to factor in extra time lost due to slower acceleration, deceleration, and movement through the station as a result of the curve (some still to remain, no doubt, even with some straightening).
Let's call it 15 seconds. Based on a comparison between local and express schedules on a couple of lines other than the Lex, it seems the average expected time lost is 45 seconds per station. So the gap fillers increase dwell time by 1/3.
Perhaps one should think in terms of a program to reduce dwell time in general. For example, why do they have to get all the passengers off and walk through the train at terminals? So what if the passengers stay on and ride in the other direction?
If the gap fillers take 5-7 seconds on each end, that doesn't mean 10 seconds it means 10 to 14. Besides, you have to factor in extra time lost due to slower acceleration, deceleration, and movement through the station as a result of the curve (some still to remain, no doubt, even with some straightening).
The assertion was that properly functioning gap fillers result in 10 seconds longer dwell time. The slower acceleraion, deceration, et al have been factored in by our measurements. The total actual actuation time for the gap fillers is about 4 of the 10 seconds. Perhaps you would be interested in verifying our studies?
Let's call it 15 seconds. Based on a comparison between local and express schedules on a couple of lines other than the Lex, it seems the average expected time lost is 45 seconds per station. So the gap fillers increase dwell time by 1/3.
My current studies have led me to discount the accuracy of published schedules.
The main question is not whether or not the gap fillers delay passengers heading south of Union Sq by 10 or 15 seconds. The question is whether the 10 or 15 seconds by themselves stack up trains behind - i.e. north of Union Sq.
The simple test is to determine time interval between the signal controlling platform access from the north turns yellow and when the following train passes this signal. Any interval in excess of 5 seconds represents wasted time. (5 seconds is the time required to travel 100' at 15 mph). If this average interval is on the order of 5 to 10 seconds then the gap fillers are a choke point. If this interval is much longer - look elsewhere.
Perhaps one should think in terms of a program to reduce dwell time in general.
Simple - increase the acceleration and dcelaration rates. Remember the Multi's?
Perhaps one should think in terms of a program to reduce dwell time in general. For example, why do they have to get all the passengers off and walk through the train at terminals? So what if the passengers stay on and ride in the other direction?
Because anyone who rides under City Hall will set off a bomb.
[Because anyone who rides under City Hall will set off a bomb.]
Hmmm, seems to me that that if someone stays on the line it's a pretty good indication that he *hasn't* placed a bomb.
Excellent point. So not only should Giuliani allow passengers to ride the City Hall loop, he should require it. Anyone boarding a 6 at Brooklyn Bridge must board on the southbound platform and pass through the loop; anyone getting off must wait until it loops and get off on the northbound platform. That would guarantee that no bombs are set off.
Perfect!
Yes, anyone can just as easily leave a bag with the bomb inside on the train, remote detonate it (or use a timer). The only diff is that they can't thow it out the window while passing the station for a more effective blast.
BTW, many times people end up staying on anyway, they don't realize that 'last stop' means the train is not going any further down town. I almost always see at least 2 people on the train as it goes around the loop, and reappear on the other side, wondering why they're still at the same station they left 5 minutes ago. My favorite incident of this is when a #5 passenger didn't realize he was heading back uptown until 14st (he had his walkman turned up full blast).
Anyone ever notice that sometimes, the #5 or #6 conductor will say 'this train is heading back uptown', or sometimes will announce 'Bowling Green' or 'Brooklyn Bridge' (respectively) just before they open the doors after their loop?
I was on a #6 last summer when the Conductor announced, as we got to the Brooklyn Bridge Station, "We'll be stopping on the other side", and the train did not stop at the southbound platform at all; it went through the City Hall loop and stopped only on the northbound platform.
---How often does this occur?
I've never seen it happen, the only explanation I can think of is the train was so late it couldn't stop twice, so they decided to only make it stop on the uptown platform. Did the train leave immediately after or did it sit for a while?
I've ridden it three times that way over the past few years - always on weekends, since I'm rarely in the City during the week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know people who go around it just because they want to see the station
What about Bowling Green (South Ferry), Euclid ave, 168st, 71/Continental, Smith/9th, 179st Jamaica? If someone doesn't hear the last stop announcement, let them ride around to the other side, they'll remember to look & listen next time after they pass the stop they got on. Anyway, at stations like South Ferry and Times Sqaure (where staying on is allowed) during rush hour, people purposly go in the opposite direction if they are 1 or 2 stops away from the terminal, so they are insured of a good seat.
So what if the passengers stay on and ride in the other direction?
Skells. They'd never get off otherwise.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A good way to quantify the effect of the gapfillers is to comapre the time for the Southbound and Northbound trains a Union Square. Both sides have sharp curves leaving the station.
Also, the queueing effect behind Union Square may partially be caused by TO's going way too slow for the yellow signals. If a train was following more closely behind the train in fron of it, this problem would be reduced. On the other hand, the TO's probably very much fear the consequences of passing a red signal, and that is the management's fault.
A good way to quantify the effect of the gapfillers is to comapre the time for the Southbound and Northbound trains a Union Square.
???
One has gapfillers, the other does not. In all other respects, they are pretty much the same, including the sharp turn that people mentioned as a possible cause for delay.
Which time interval should be compared? Time from entry to doors open; time from doors close to exit, time doors are open, something else?
The time from GCT to Brooklyn Bridge. This would also include the extra time added when downtown trains have to slow down because of a train already in the station.
(The time from GCT to Brooklyn Bridge. This would also include the extra time added when downtown trains have to slow
down because of a train already in the station.)
That's right, dwell time is more than time dwelling, esp. with signals, acceleration, and deceleration the way they are. It takes time to brake from and get back up to speed, though not as much as if speeds were greater.
Of course, the gap fillers can't slow things down any worse than the maze of switches into and out of DeKalk and the crawl over the Manhattan Bridge.
Do they plan to restore the speed of trains on the Manhattan Bridge after it's repaired?
Of course not. This is NYCT we are talling about.
Of course, the gap fillers can't slow things down any worse than the maze of switches into and out of DeKalk and the crawl over the Manhattan Bridge.
Just how is the speed of the IRT Lex trains affected by the DeKalb switches and the Manhattan Bridge?
(Just how is the speed of the IRT Lex trains affected by the DeKalb switches and the Manhattan Bridge?)
Don't be cranky. The point is the gap fillers can't slow the IRT any more than the Manhattan Bridge slows the BMT.
The time from GCT to Brooklyn Bridge. This would also include the extra time added when downtown trains have to slow down because of a train already in the station.
The point is to determine the delay caused by the gap fillers. Correct?
The running time between GCT and BB is affected by many factors. For example: loading time at Union Sq. Suppose one train is packed and takes 30 seconds to load while another takes only 15 seconds. Neither is attributable to the gap fillers. How should one compensate? Possibly there was a delay up stream. Clearing the delay caused the trains to bunch at GCT. Now what?
The suggestion was to compare the uptown and downtown directions. The theory was that the only difference was the gap fillers. Not quite. There is a net altitude change between BB and GCT. (GCT is higher). One would expect that downtown trains would go faster UNLESS they were limited by timers - which there are. Unfortunately the gap fillers are not the only difference between the uptown and downtown runs.
A secondary problem is measurement efficiency. How many people or how much time does it take to get the data. One person on one train for 5 to 10 minutes? Two people at two stations with two synchronized clocks recording arrival and departure times and properly identifying the trains?
a few months ago i was at prince st station heading uptown with a friend and the platform was in chaos - we were told there was a jumper. a few months before, in a lecture, i was told of the exact procedure that follows after a subway suicide - yes, what that episode of homicide (that i never saw) was written about. i've been searching for the past few hours online for information regarding this. what exactly happens?
The 6300 Series R-142s are now on the road (as of this posting) making simulated train stops on the 2 Line, by stopping and opening doors on the wrong side of the various stations. I would guess their entry into service is no too far now...
-Stef
>opening doors on the wrong side....
we're still counting, right Salaam??
8-0.
"we're still counting, right Salaam??
8-0."
Only two more left before the both of you find yourselves on Ward's Island.
..........stop making sense south ferry !! the redbirds were quality biult AMERICAN BUILT subway cars
this other 142 & later JUNK is no where near the quality of the good old days when the subway was a subway !!
I will give you odds going up to 0.9 the styrofoam 142s cant cut it !!!!!!
yesterday the opening of the los angeles red line the italian built breda cars..........AIR CONDITIONING FAILED !!!!!
you couldnt even breathe on these new 142 type JUNKER "S" scrapper cars.....& no windows to open up either!!!
I am sure the transverse cab car club would be delighted to hear this !!!!!!.......RIGHT ON SOUTH FERRY..!!!!!
Why do you think cars aren't built by companies based in the United States anymore? Because they were crap.
But the good foreign companies still manage to manufacture cars in the United States.
I'm trying to keep a cool head, but I'm gonna say what I feel like. You gotta a problem, contact me by e-mail.
If you have someting releveant to say then say it. Otherwise don't add to this thread. I'm trying to be informative here, and I don't want anyone second guess me. Understood?
THEY ARE NOT IN SERVICE. OPENING DOORS ON THE WRONG SIDE WAS DONE SO THE PASSENGERS WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED IN. WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT?!!! OR DO YOU HEAR WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR?
I don't give a damn what the score is. You want your Redbirds, then take them, beacause they aren't worth anything anymore. Ain't it great when you can run a fleet into the ground? That's exactly what was done. They're going to be marked for scrap sooner than you think. Can U dig it?
The age of the railfan window is over! Live with it. The side windows can't open? A pity, maybe someone's trying to suffocate you. Happy railfanning.
-Stef
Thank you so much, I've couldn't have said it better!!!!!
GO R-142A!!!!!!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511 / Metro D 3700 / R142A 7215
www.nyctransitfamily.net
I like to be informative, ok. If someone has something relevant to add, THEN DO IT. If not, let the poster(s) refrain from saying anything. I generally don't let anything bother me here, but sometimes things get under my skin.
We can argue until we're blue in the face about how good the redbirds are, but the reality of the matter is they're not getting any younger, and they're headed out the door. If the Redbird Club wants to see them continue to run, support your local Trolley Museum. There's the Redbird R-17 at Shore Line in East Haven, and there's an R-16 (not a Redbird) at TMNY in Kingston which also needs your help. The cars come complete with railfan windows, and sides that open. Ain't this great?
I too am a Redbird Fan. I'm not devoted to these so called factions that appear on this board. But reality bites, and the scrapper's gonna have a great time torching these things....
-Stef
I understand fully, don't get me wrong, I love the redbirds too, But also I like to give the new kids on the block a fighting chance. Just like the R142 have to be proven, the redbirds had to be proven when they entered service too, and I think that some people forgot that!
Keep in Touch
Trevor Logan
www.nyctransitfamily.net
...which must be getting a lot of puzzled stares from people waiting on the platform on the opposite side of the tracks. After Friday's report about the B train motorman, they probably think here's another MTA employee who needs to be urine tested :)
It was for testing purposes only. I hope people realize this, before I refrain from posting.
Read it, SIMULATED TRAIN STOPS, NOT THE REAL THING!
-Stef
Stef, you're a little too tense tonight due to the other posts -- I knew that, that's why the smiley face was at the end of the message. It was a joke.
The point was most people would find it a bit unusual to see a train pull in and open the doors on the wrong side, and based on what happened to the MTA this past week, might think there's some imparement going on in the conductor's cab.
I'm sorry.
Naw, the train REALLY stopped. What happens after the train stopped is being simulated.
Yes, I know that. The train pulled into Jackson Av, stopped, personnel opened doors, closed them, and pulled out. The use of the term simulation, means that passengers weren't involved.
-Stef
I hope they go in service before my vacation which is coming up. I wouldn't want to miss being the first T/O on that train.
Good luck, kind gentleman. I hope you do get the first train. If I can ride it, I sure will, because no matter what anyone says here, the R-142s are here to stay. Case closed.
-Stef
Stef, I can see that you and I are gonna be close friends soon!
R142As FOREVER!
Trevor Logan
www.nyctransitfamily.net
Can you say SUBTALK FIELD TRIP? I knew you could!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today's best guess from one of the TSSs on the test team is the end of July at the earliest. Apparantly a few days ago, while running on the Dyre line, the doors on one side flew open for no good reason. Vapor Corp techies later admitted to playing with doors overnight and probaly forgot to restore them correctly.
By popular demand, following is a complete list of the original station platform lengths of the IND grouped by chaining codes, as reprised from over several posts earlier this year. Since that time, some additional information was discovered by this writer. Without further adieu:
WASHINGTON HEIGHTS - 8th AVENUE – Original 1932 Route:
207th Street (Manhattan) : start 1534+45, end 1541+05
Dyckman-200th Street : start 1512+15, end 1518+75
190th Street-Overlook Terrace : start 1481+05, end 1487+65
181st Street : start 1454+20, end 1460+80
175th Street-George Washington Bridge Bus Station : start 1436+15, end 1442+75
168th Street-Broadway : start 1410+20, end 1416+80
163rd Street-Amsterdam Avenue : start 1393+35, end 1399+35
155th Street : start 1372+45, end 1378+45
145th Street : A1,2,3,4 - start 1350+15, end 1356+75; C1,2/4,3 - start 1350+15, end 1356+75 [C1 sidewall design end 1356+15]
135th Street : start 1323+15, end 1329+15
125th Street : start 1295+15, end 1301+75 [A1 sidewall design end 1301+15]
116th Street : start 1271+15, end 1277+15
110th Street-Cathedral Parkway : start 1252+35, end 1258+35
103rd Street : both platforms [A1 & A2] start 1233+65, end 1239+65
96th Street : both platforms [A1 & A2] start 1215+15, end 1221+30
86th Street : both platforms [A1 & A2] start 1191+15, end 1197+15
81st Street-Museum of Natural History : A1 platform start 1172+45, end 1178+45; A2 platform start 1172+45, end 1178+75
72nd Street : both platforms [A1 & A2] start 1148+45, end 1154+45
59th Street-Columbus Circle : start 1117+95, end 1124+55
50th Street [8th Avenue] : A1 platform start 1095+15, end 1101+85; A2 platform start 1095+15, end 1101+80; D3 & D4 platforms start 1092+30, end 1098+90
42nd Street [8th Avenue] : A1/A3 platform start 1069+00, end 1075+60; A2/A4 platform start 1074+55, end 1081+15
34th Street-Penn Station : A1 & A2 platforms start 1050+80, end 1057+40; A3 platform start 1051+25, end 1057+85; A4 platform start 1051+85, end 1058+45
23rd Street [8th Avenue] : start 1024+45, end 1031+05
14th Street [8th Avenue] : start 1003+55, end 1010+15
West 4th Street-Washington Square : A1/A3 platform start 969+25, end 975+85; A2/A4 platform start 969+25, end 976+05; B1,2,3,4 platforms start 959+00, end 965+60 [southernmost B platforms commence 90 ft. north of start of southernmost A platforms; i.e. B_ 961+00 = A_ 972+15]
Spring Street : start 945+50, end 952+10
Canal Street-Holland Tunnel : A2/A4 platform start 923+90, end 930+50; A1/A3 platform start 926+10, end 932+70
Chambers Street station : start 898+25, end 904+85
World Trade Center terminus [formerly, Hudson Terminal] : start 892+00, end 898+70
CRANBERRY STREET TUBES:
Broadway-Nassau Street : start 879+00, end 885+60
High Street-Brooklyn Bridge : A3 start 814+40, end 821+00; A4 start 815+00, end 821+60 [And yet this is an island platform which begins and ends at the same points. Go figure]
Jay Street-Borough Hall : start 782+45, end 789+05
GRAND CONCOURSE LINE and connection from 59th Street-Columbus Circle to Sixth Avenue line:
205th Street : start 1651+60, end 1658+20
Bedford Park Boulevard : start 1618+95, end 1625+55
Kingsbridge Road : start 1589+60, end 1596+20
Fordham Road : C1/C3 platform start 1565+85, end 1572+55; C2/C4 platform start 1566+25, end 1572+85
182nd-183rd Street : start 1545+30, end 1551+90
Tremont Avenue : start 1521+55, end 1528+15
174th-175th Street : start 1499+70, end 1506+45
170th Street : (approx.) start 1473+95?, end 1480+65?
167th Street : (approx.) start 1448+50?, end 1455+10?
161st Street-River Avenue : start 1415+00, end 1421+60
155th Street-8th Avenue : start 1378+15, end 1384+75
Seventh Avenue-53rd Street : B3 start 1087+35, end 1093+95; B4 start 1087+40, end 1094+00; D3 & D4 start 1110+10, end 1116+70
PROSPECT PARK LINE:
Bergen Street : start 756+82, end 763+42 [NOTE: Only for local platforms; no info on express platforms]
Carroll Street : start 732+40, end 739+00
Smith-9th Street : B1 platform start 705+10, end 712+15; B2 platform start 705+10, end 712+30
Fourth Avenue : B1 platform start 683+85, end 690+90; B2 platform start 684+10, end 690+90
[NOTE: Tracks go back underground at 683+85]
Seventh Avenue (Brooklyn) : start 654+02, end 660+57
15th Street-Prospect Park : start 625+70, end 632+30
Fort Hamilton Parkway : start 585+40, end 591+95
Church Avenue : start 556+95, end 563+55
QUEENS BOULEVARD LINE:
179th Street : D2/4 platform start 1766+85, end 1773+45; D1/3 platform start 1767+00, end 1773+60
169th Street : start 1738+65, end 1745+25
Parsons Boulevard : start 1709+70, end 1716+30
Sutphin Boulevard : start 1687+55, end 1694+15
Van Wyck Boulevard : start 1650+95, end 1657+55
Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens : start 1614+05, end 1620+65
75th Avenue : start 1591+35, end 1597+95
71st-Continental Avenue - Forest Hills : start 1567+85, end 1574+45
67th Avenue : start 1539+40, end 1545+40
63rd Drive : start 1512+15, end 1518+15
Woodhaven Boulevard-Slattery Plaza : start 1487+05, end 1493+75
Grand Avenue-Newtown : start 1459+85, end 1466+45
Elmhurst Avenue : start 1435+60, end 1441+60
Roosevelt Avenue-Jackson Heights : start 1405+30, end 1411+90
65th Street : start 1382+60, end 1389+20
Northern Boulevard : start 1358+90, end 1365+50
46th Street : start 1335+10, end 1341+70
Steinway Street : start 1309+75, end 1316+35
36th Street (Queens) : start 1278+06, end 1284+66
Queens Plaza : start 1250+05, end 1256+65 [D2 sidewall start 1250+55]
23rd Street-Ely Avenue : start 1224+75, end 1231+35
Lexington Avenue-53rd Street : start 1149+90, end 1156+50
Fifth Avenue-53rd Street : D4 start 1130+44, end 1137+44; D3 (approx.) start 1130+20, end 1137+10
BONUS: World’s Fair : start 102+17, end 108+29
HOUSTON STREET / RUTGERS SLIP TUBES:
Broadway-Lafayette Street : B1/3 (approx.) start 922+25, end 928+65; B2/4 (approx.) start 922+40, end 928+95
Second Avenue : start 903+50, end 910+00
Delancey Street : start 880+30, end 886+90(?)
East Broadway : start 861+55, end 868+15
York Street : start 808+80, end 815+40
FULTON STREET LINE:
Court Street : start 781+45, end 787+45
Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street : start 761+75, end 768+45
Lafayette Avenue : start 729+85, end 736+45
Clinton-Washington Avenue(I) : A1 start 704+15, end 710+75; A2 start 704+45, end 711+05
Franklin Avenue : A1 start 678+00, end 684+65; A2 start 678+45, end 685+05
Nostrand Avenue : all platforms [A1,2,3,4] start 659+65, end 666+25
Kingston-Throop Avenue : A2 start 632+20, end 638+80; A1 start 634+60, end 641+20
Utica Avenue : start 605+80, end 612+40
Ralph Avenue : start 578+35, end 584+95
Rockaway Avenue : A1 start 552+95, end 560+03; A2 start 553+22, end 556+05
Broadway-East New York : A2/4 start 534+95, end 541+35; A1/3 start 534+95, end 541+40
Liberty Avenue : start 502+35, end 508+45
Van Siclen Avenue : start 479+07, end 485+16
Shepherd Avenue : start 452+13, end 458+28
Euclid Avenue : start 427+55, end 433+70
[NOTE: Around 420+00, A code becomes K]
Grant Avenue : start 406+50, end 413+10
BROOKLYN-QUEENS CROSSTOWN:
Court Square : start 1230+07, end 1236+67
Van Alst-21st Street : start 1211+32, end 1217+92
Greenpoint Avenue : start 1157+72, end 1164+32
Nassau Avenue : start 1131+52, end 1138+32
Metropolitan Avenue-Grand Street : start 1084+77, end 1091+37
Broadway (Brooklyn) : start 1060+52, end 1067+12
Flushing Avenue : start 1039+42, end 1046+02
Myrtle-Willoughby Avenue : start 1017+47, end 1024+52
Bedford-Nostrand Avenue : start 989+22, end 995+82
Classon Avenue : start 970+82, end 977+42
Clinton-Washington Avenue(II) : start 951+82, end 958+42
[NOTE: Inbetween this and the next station, they pick up the numeral order of the Fulton Street route]
Fulton Street : E2 start 733+55, end 740+15; E1 start 733+70, end 740+30
SIXTH AVENUE LINE:
47th-50th Street - Rockefeller Center : start 1067+75, end 1074+40
42nd Street [6th Avenue] : start 1049+10, end 1055+80
34th Street [6th Avenue] : B2/4 start 1029+70, end 1037+15; B1/3 start 1030+85, end 1037+70
23rd Street [6th Avenue] : both platforms [B1 & B2] start 1002+30, end 1009+00
14th Street [6th Avenue] : B1 start 982+85, end 989+50; B2 start 983+35, end 989+95
POSTWAR EXTENSIONS:
Connecting from Sixth Avenue-Houston Street route to Manhattan Bridge:
Grand Street : start 888+05, end 894+20
63rd Street line:
57th Street [6th Avenue] : start 1090+50, end 1096+65 [at station end, B5/6 chaining code becomes T1/2]
Lexington Avenue-63rd Street : T2 start 1130+30, end 1136+95; T1 start 1130+50, end 1136+95
Roosevelt Island : start 1173+55, end 1179+70
21st Street-Queensbridge : T2 start 1205+30, end 1211+45; T1 start 1205+50, end 1211+60
Archer Avenue extension:
Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer : DA1, J1/2 start 76+00, end 82+30; DA2 start 76+00, end 82+25
Sutphin Boulevard : all start 57+65, end 63+80
Jamaica-Van Wyck : start 26+20, end 32+35
[NOTE: DA1 76+00 = 1726+00?; J1 76+00 = 670+60?]
Here's a crazy question: How do I read this in terms of the numbers after the station name?
1534+45 translates to 153,445', 1541+05 translates to 154,105'
Subtract 153,445' from 154,105' and you get 660'
John
This is great info. With this it is now possible to figure out the platform length, and custom the consists of cars to make maximum use of the platforms by MIXING R/40m, R/40 =, R/42s with R/44,46,68, and 68As to fit the 660, 645, 630 and 615 and 600 ft stations . Save all those old cars, real releif is just over the horizon!
avid
Interestingly, R-10 through R-42 units were combined a la IRT R12-36 combos in 1969. But whereas the IRT R units looked virtually alike, no two BMT/IND R orders from 1948-69 looked the same. So it was strange, for instance, to see a train of R-42’s with a lone married-pair R-27 or 30, or in one photo on this site, a train which had an R-40 slant followed by a married-pair R-38 followed by R-40M. Or R-32, R-40 slant and R-42. Or, in an A train consist in 1969, an R-42 with an R-10. Or R-27/30 and R-38. Or R-27/30 and R-32. On the Franklin Avenue-Prospect Park shuttle, you would see a married-pair R-32 coupled to a single R-11 as R-34. (I doubt R-16’s were mixed in with R-10, R-27/30, R-32, R-38, R-40 slant, R-40M and R-42 cars, however.)
David
TA workers are cheap. It's the retirees who are expensive.
D Train: I don't have the exact dates in front of me but during the 50's both E and F trains did run with 11 car trains.
Larry, RedbirdR33
Liberty El
Grant Avenue (In terms of K): 472+11 to 478+71
80th Street-Hudson Street: 491+45 to 498+16
88th Street-Boyd Avenue: 512+56 to 519+29
Rockaway Blvd: 533+39 to 540+27
104th Street-Oxford Avenue: 551+53 to 558+24
111th Street - Greenwood Avenue: 569+55 to 576+30
Lefferts Blvd: 588+46 to 595+49
Rockaway Line
Aqueduct Racetrack: 466+25± to 473+50± (F2 only)
Aqueduct-North Conduit Avenue: F1: 480+20 to 488+36, F2: 475+75 to 488+36 (Concrete platform starts at 477+77)
Howard Beach-JFK AirTrain: F1: 509+89 to 516+81, F2: 511+99 to 518+91
Broad Channel: 705+15± to 712+20±
Rockaway Park Branch
Beach 90th Street-Holland: 787+70± to 794+25
Beach 98th Street-Playland: F3: 809+56 to 817+99, F4: 809+56 to 816+97
Beach 105th Street-Seaside: 830+43 to 836+76
Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street: 853+85 to 861+15
Far Rockaway Branch
Beach 67th Street-Gaston: 803+39 to 810+00
Beach 60th Street-Straiton Avenue: 827+14± to 834+08±
Beach 44th Street-Frank Avenue: 862+06± to 868+82
Beach 36th Street-Edgemere: 886+28 to 893+07
Beach 25th Street-Wavecrest: F3A: 911+89 to 919+03, F4A: 911+89 to 918+20
Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue: 933+80 to 940+50
So from the end of Union Tpk's platform to the beginning of Parson's platform, it's 8905 feet, or 1.69 miles.
Look at the track arrangement. There are four tracks side-by-side in the typical local station setup, plus two tracks on the outside for Brighton-bridge trains.
Just heard on channel 7 that someone get stuck in a train door at Borough Hall IRT station, and got dragged a person a few hundred feet. They recieved minor injuries.
Probably was a Redbird again. Perhaps they need to sound a horn before the doors close.
At the hearing: I was traumatized by the incident... I will never again be able to stick my hand into the closing door of a train without fear of injury. And that, your honor, is why I deserve a $1,000,000 settlement.
Lots of similarities with the last drag case:
1) A redbird
2) An adult not properly supervising a child on the subways.
3) No arrest for child endangerment.
Do we need to wait until a child is dragged to their death before we start holding parents accountable. You can not count on a conductor to see a 2 year old child over dozens (if not hundreds) of people leaving & boarding the train. My cat takes better care of her kittens than some parents in this city take care of their children.
again you blame the parent of the victim...
well, if you want to hold the woman responsible for the endangerment of her child, then i think the mta and the city should have the crap sued out of them for operating cars that do not provide protection for the riding public...perhaps to encourage real responsibility of the people managing the fleet of cars, sue them personally for allowing such conditions to exist... then maybe they'll pull the whole fleet off the tracks, rather than allowing known unsafe cars to run... be sure to include the people in operations who require the conductors to keep the doors open for less than a certain amount of time...
And you know this car was not working properly, how exactly? Have you checked toe doors with a gauge? Have you got a copy of a System Safety report that says the doors were not working as designed? Of course you don't but you are ready as ever, with your ultra-left mentality, to toss the blame to the one with the deepest pockets instead of where it belongs. When is a parent accountable for their stupidity? The doors on the redbirds were never designed to sense the axle of a baby stroller. However, even if they were, as a responsible parent do you condone deferring your child's safety to a 40 year old mechanical device and say "oh well!" when it doesn't work out. I for one am tired of kids being run over by inattentive parents, left to die in hot cars or thrown in rivers for the lack of a baby sitter. If we go by the HeyPaul school of responsibility, we sue the auto makers, the sun and child welfare. Parents, by nature of their being raised by parents with poor parenting skills are exhonorated.
And you know this car was not working properly, how exactly? Have you checked toe doors with a gauge? Have you got a copy of a System Safety report that says the doors were not working as designed?
The mathematics of statistical decision theory have been understood since around 1954. There are sensors to detect when an object is stuck in the doors. There are two failure modes: a false alarm - the sensor reports something is caught in the door when nothing is; a miss - the sensor reports there is nothing in the door when something is.
A false alarm is detected immediately. The train personnel must inspect every door obstruction incident and take remedial action to cure false alarms before a train can proceed.
A miss is not detected until the next yard inspection in not less than 66 days. There is no mechanism on board that permits the conductor to easily determine that a sensor is reporting a door closed, when it is indeed open.
The cost for a false alarm is a 5 to 10 minute delay. The cost for a miss is possible serious injury or death to an unlucky passenger.
I would hazard the opinion that the design is deficient from a safety and engineering perspective. The cost for a miss is far greater than that for a false alarm but there is no way to detect a miss until a regular inspection.
hey steve... spare me the ultra liberal mentality remarks... or is that just your basic winning by intimidation strategy?... is there a weakness in the redbird fleet as far as a train being able to move with someone's foot or stroller in the doors?... you seem content to spend millions of dollars to do proactive maintenance of the r-68's to keep your mdbf figures nice and high... well why weren't the door systems of the redbirds refit with safer door closure systems?... not cost effective, since the cars are due to be retired?... but they can allow 5 or 10 years go by testing the new technology of the r142's, while they have a reliable car in the form of the r-62 that could have been reordered...
i do not advocate suing to address the problems in society... i feel that if you assign blame to the mother of this child, then assign blame to the people who operate the system... if i am not mistaken, mechanics and supervision in the airline industry are held legally for allowing dangerous conditions to exist on an airplane... well, don't the lives of thousands of riders of a subway train warrant the responsibility of those who sign off on their safety?
The mechanicals aren't dangerous if the humans aren't idiots.
There is NOTHING mechanically dangerous with the doors. The IS something dangerous with the behavior of a person who puts their child into closing train doors, just so they don't have to wait 5 more minutes for the next train. If you want an idiot-proof society, kill the humans.
-Hank
Winning by intimidation? Hardly Paul. I deal in a rare commodity, the facts while you deal in knee-jerk liberalism. Here's the bottom line Paul. You intimate that the the doors on the particular car are defective and that was the cause of the incident. I say you have no proof that there was any defect. I have not looked into this incident yet so I have as little fact as you do. Time to put up or shut up Paul. Prove that the door system on this car was defective....
The trouble is that long before the R10 and up were running on the tracks of the NYC Subway system, it was recognized that the doors could not sense the axle of a baby stroller. The NYCT recognized this and so made open strollers a violation. Parents were expected to carry their children on and off trains. Then another leftward-bent liberal by the name of Ruth Messenger forced the TA to permit open strollers on trains. Hence, a new page in potental transit tragedy was born. Certainly, Ms. messenger was advised of the potential danger involved but the femenist cause won out. Do all women march in lock-step with this stupidity? Nope, and my daughter is one who never took any of my grand-children on a train, NYCT or LIRR in a stroller.
Again Paul, put up or shut up time. I'm calling your hand. Prove your case of fold your cards. No intimidation - just give us your evidence.
dont take it so personnely. The train was not under your command. However to me it seems very clear that it was mechanical failure. I reemmeber when I was still in New York you couldnt even put a newspaper into the train doors of 68,s The fact that the train was able to be closed with indication was at least a gross lack of caring by management. You expect to cure it by giving a "violation" Management gets away with violations and suspensions since they are nazis and love total control but the passengers dont work for transit and are not interrested in being forced to read a 120 page manual before being allowed to travel to work As a matter of fact even management doesnt read their own manuals
Seems he has got you there heypaul. Lets reveiw;
Politically the mothers can go on the system with strollers and bikers can take there two whellers on board.
Mechcanically the equipement is clean under current requirements
Humanly the TRAIN CREW conducted themselves with governmental impersonalism. That is not to show favoritism to any passenger over another. In this case it was the victum vurses the passengers at the next stop.
So in true Nuerimberg fashion, "They were only following orders.
It might have been polite to LOOK and see if the doors were clear, but there is no politeness in the TA.
Whens the last time a clerk said thank you for the fare you paid, or and announcement included the word Please. They've been weeded out as time wasters! Its official.
So heypaul, wise up for your own good. The Ta is not guilty of attempted negligent homicide. The child and mother should be tried for blocking a governmental agency from performing is functionand scraping the platform and attempting to damage the door motors. They are in big trouble . Perhaps a charge of FELONIOUS PASSENGERING, CONSPIRING TO PASSENGER, and finally PASSENGERING WITH INTENT TO REACH A DESTENATION.
avid
Slow down Avid, your knuckles are dragging on the sidewalk again. Go back and read my posts over. I never said anything about the conduct or the performance of the train crew (or lack there-of). I only expressed the contention that the equipment was working as intended on the day of the incident. I was responding to heypaul's weaselish attempt to imply that the car defective and that a car inspector had not properly done his job. This, despite the fact that there has been no information given that the car had any mechanical defect at the time of the incident. Now, do you want to dispute that point or are we going to squabble over statements you attribute to me but which I have never made?
I though my post did not put anything at your doorstep. Whats your gripe? And leave my knuckles out of this. They don't drag, I walk on them.
avid
Avid,
You did say in response to my post to Paul:
"Seems he has got you there heypaul." "Mechcanically the equipement is clean under current requirements"
You then made comments about the crew, and for those who had not read my comments, the infurrence would be that you were still replying to what I posted.
"Humanly the TRAIN CREW conducted themselves with governmental impersonalism. That is not to show favoritism to any passenger over another. In this case it was the victum vurses the passengers at the next stop."
Also, Salaam was soundly criticized for referring to LAPD as Nazi's. Your term "Nurimberg Fashion" may be equally offensive to some.
YADA YADA YADA.
I WAS JUST FOLLOWING ORDERS. I'm not the guilty one.
Where was the second look, just in case, so the conductor could be the hero? Was he bored? How crowded was the station? There are alot of questions that must have satisfactory answers. If the mother was silly on not to bright, what's this whole thing say for the door operator?
avid
Read my subsequent post on the conductor. Better yet, try watching 500 feet of train with several hundred 5 foot + people boarding or alighting. See how many 2 and 3 year-olds you can see from your vantage point and see if you can determine if they are being properly and safely supervised by an adult.
A train that is put into service and drags someone is defective. Period. I fail to see how you can think otherwise unless you are letting professional pride color your judg3ment.
subway_crash.... i must disagree with you again and defend train dude ... you accused him of letting his professional pride color his judgement... you have it backwards... he is letting his self righteous judgementalism and adhominem attacks color his words...
i am through reacting to him... this is a open forum... let other people judge his words...
So by this, I assume that I'll be getting more weaselish E-mail privately from you?
that does it... you have referred to the e-mails that i sent you following your comments on a ta worker who you judged guilty of crimes despite the outcome of his criminal case... my concerns then were not for the worker, but partly out of a concern for your libeling this person and its repercussions on you and this message board... your accusations came right after another ta worker made accusations here against a ta manager, which i also felt went over the line...
from this point on, say whatever you want about me, mothers, workers, salaam allah... others will have to track you... your blip just went off my radar screen...
Time out guys. Let me speak from experience. This nit-picking and accusations get none of us anywhere. Just recently I got into it with a couple of rainfans over some mundane things, and though it seemed great to score debate points and an occasional putdown, when it was all over I didn't feel better about it but worse. We're all on here because we love the New York Subway, and so on that alone we are all on the same page. Disagreements over particular lines in ok, but when it gets personal no one benefits. Me included, let's all try to think things out from here on in. ok?
What is this "we love transit"? I thought we were here so management could learn how to run a subway system.
Woody Allen (I think said it best) "Those that can't do, teach and those that can't teach, teach gym."
It's clear that everyone is entitled to their opinion but until you can match my credentals, professionally and academically, make no presumtions about teaching this branch of management anything. I agreed with you one time. I believed that you had some correct information at that time. however, that has bought you exactly all that you are going to get. I said it at the time, that you still talk in riddles and I'm not sure who you are or where you are coming from. Now, I've got a minute. Tell me everything you know.
You can call it professional pride. You can call it boosterism. You can call it professional knowledge. If a system of any type fails to perform a function for which it was designed to do, then it is defective. However, you can not consider a Boing 747 defective if it cannot perform VTOs. It was never designed to do so. The R-33 and R-36 WF cars do not sense loads continuously as do other NYCT cars. So if the entire population of a train, enmass, walked to the first car before the doors opened again, that train would have some significant mechanical difficulties. Is it, therefore, defective or mearly operating as it was designed? By the same token, the door systems of the redbirds were never designed or modified to be as critical as the cars with the door obstruction sensing of other cars. You can debate the issue that they should have been modified but you cannot claim that they are defective.
[If a system of any type fails to perform a function for which it was designed to do, then it is defective. However, you can not consider a Boing 747 defective if it cannot perform VTOs. It was never designed to do so. The R-33 and R-36 WF cars do not sense loads continuously as do other NYCT cars. So if the entire population of a train, enmass, walked to the first car before the doors opened again, that train would have some significant mechanical difficulties. Is it, therefore, defective or mearly operating as it was designed? By the same token, the door systems of the redbirds were never designed or modified to be as critical as the cars with the door obstruction sensing of other cars. You can debate the issue that they should have been modified but you cannot claim that they are defective.]
It all comes down to defining the term "defective." It is true that the Redbirds are not defective in one sense of the term because they can do all that they were designed to do. So far so good. But if we're willing to use a more expansive definition, the Redbirds indeed may be defective because they lack what's now considered an essential safety feature, namely the door sensors. In other words, they do their best, but their best isn't good enough.
(It all comes down to defining the term "defective." It is true that the Redbirds are not defective in one sense of the term because
they can do all that they were designed to do. So far so good. But if we're willing to use a more expansive definition, the
Redbirds indeed may be defective because they lack what's now considered an essential safety feature, namely the door
sensors. In other words, they do their best, but their best isn't good enough).
The word for that is "obsolete." Getting back to the old vs. new dispute, there is such a thing as "obsolescence" in a country whose standards are ever-rising. Nothing that people complain about is worse than it used to be (except subway service affected by the Manhattan Bridge), but that doesn't mean it's good enough.
Speaking of that *(^)^)*(&& bridge, there's a piece in the Brooklyn section of today's Daily News. The Bay Ridge riders say they're fed up with the horrid service on the Never and the Rarely.
-Hank
Hank: And here I sit 3,000 miles away not affected by the doings of those two lines, but foaming at the mouth as what my favorite train has become. A never. That hurts and I don't know who to blame for this sorry state of affairs. The Sea Beach used to get you from Times Square to Coney Island efficiently and quickly. Today that's not the case and the line has come in for some strong criticism. It makes me angry and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. That makes it even worse.
Fred: Look at it this way. The N still runs express on 4 Avenue in Brooklyn on weekdays and lately with all the track work it has often been possible to ride the remaining express track on the Sea Beach Line which was almost impossible to do for 30 years. Your N is still with us shouldering its share of the daily transit workload.
Some poor souls have only their memories. After all whats left of the 2nd,3rd,5th and 6th Avenues'Els. The 9th Avenue people still have an abandoned tunnel in The Bronx.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 5th Avenue El would certainly have no remains. Unless the devil planted them there!
Hey, my uncle's 1985 Chysler doesn't have airbags. However, it meets or exceeds all the safety requirements that were in effect at the time of its manufacture. Is it defective, or merely old and lacking the features that are standard on more modern vehicles?
-Hank
Larry is correct, the term is "obsolete".
There's a lot of yelling and screaming over the meaning of words.
A "defect" in TA parlance is a failure to perform according to
specifications. There's no evidence that such a "defect" played
any role in the recent dragging incidents, nor is there any evidence
that any RTO or DCE employees did anything wrong.
So, we can stop blaming train crews, RCIs, yard superintendents,
etc., but the real issue lay undebated: should the "redbird"
fleet have been retrofitted with improved door sensing technology?
Are there any other improvements that can be reasonably implemented
to make the system safer?
The key word is reasonable. In the case of the Redbirds, I think the answer is NO. Before you can really get going with a retrofit the cars will be scrap.
Lets tear down the third Ave EL befor we build the 2nd Ave subway, it obsolete!
Lets not retofit the resbirds ,they'll be gone in ten years!
Lets shorten the platform lengths,we won't have increased ridership!
Lets order so many different types of cars, they won't be compatible.
Lets do a G.O.H. and still keep the cars incompatible,lets lessen flexibility and make an outage not 12.5 % but 50%.
Whats wrong with this picture?
avid
You don't like the word "obsolete"? It's accurate.
The question is what to do about it. I think it is
pretty clear that the TA has chosen to do minimal
maintenance and upgrades of the "redbird" fleet for the
past few years on the premise that they are about to be
retired. Of course, the retirements were supposed to
have happened already yet the new cars haven't even completed
their 30 day yet....could be another year before the old
cars are gone.
You make good points on this issue, Jeff. The R9s were going to be replaced by the massive 742 car R46 fleet quickly, so maintenance was deferred on these venerable vehicles. As we know, the R46s came pouring in and started to take over in a big way until their Rockwell trucks began to fail. Suddenly, the TA had to keep the under-maintained R9s running far beyond what had been planned. Many rides aboard them during that long period were adventures! Everything began to fail, but they had to stay in service.
The TA faces the same problem with the obselete Redbirds now. If they keep up full and proper maintenance schedules on them and the new cars take over as promised, there will be much cricitism for spending money on a fleet that they knew was going to be scrapped. On the other hand, if something akin to the R46 disaster overtakes the new equipment, the TA will be criticized for not having sufficient service-ready cars. It's a tough game, with the press eager to assign blame either way. Railfans need to remain sensitive to these real pressures upon TA decision-makers and political representatives.
>>> There's no evidence that such a "defect" played any role in the recent dragging incidents, nor is there any evidence that any RTO or DCE employees did anything wrong. <<<
Jeff;
I disagree that there is no evidence that anyone did wrong.
In a case like a dragging incident the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself) applies.
In normal jurisprudence an injured person must prove that the entity that injured him did something wrong. In certain instances such as an airplane that disappears over the ocean, it is impossible to prove what happened, but since an airplane should not just fall out of the sky in the normal course of events the presumption is that something went wrong and it is up to the airline and aircraft builder to prove they did nothing wrong.
The same doctrine applies to the dragging incidents. In the normal course of events, a subway train should not grab a passenger and drag him along the platform. If it happens then something in the system has failed.
When the el's started with gate cars there was a conductor between each car where passengers boarded who would mechanically close the gate and signal the motorman to start the train. With that system it is doubtful that there was ever a dragging because of someone getting caught in the gate (but I am sure there were some injuries from people trying to vault over the closed gate after the train started moving).
When the system went to MUDC with one conductor for each train, he operated the door controls from raised steps between the cars so he had an elevated view of the platform and doors. At that point it became the CR's duty to ensure that no one was caught in the automatic doors. If anyone got caught in a door and dragged, he failed to perform his duty adequately.
Somewhere around the R-15 contract the conductor's controls were moved inside the cab, and he had to view the platform and doors by sticking his head out of the window. He no longer had the height advantage that he had from the steps between the cars, and it became more difficult to look both ways to see if the doors were clear. This "improved" design made the CR's job more difficult (although more comfortable) but did not relieve him from the duty to be sure the doors were clear. It could be argued that door sensors that would release anyone trapped by a door should have been added to the cars then to compensate for the CR's reduced visibility. The technology was certainly available and the failure to include them was a "design defect."
It is no excuse that the CR's view was obscured by crowds on the platform or a curved platform. Those conditions are not unforeseeable and some compensation must be made for them. Whether the compensation is high tech with television monitors or low tech with additional employees on the platforms, it is the TA's duty to ensure no one is caught in the doors when the train starts to move.
The carelessness of passengers is also no excuse. The TA knows it has a range of passengers from brilliant to sub normal intelligence, from attentive to absent minded, and intoxicated. It has a duty to transport them safely, or in the case of the highly intoxicated or psychotic remove them form the premises. There have been recent postings on the board indicating that a mother who boards a train with an infant in a stroller is negligent or even abusive to a child. This is nonsense. The TA has determined that it is safe to board trains with children in strollers. Therefore it is the TA's responsibility to see to it that people with strollers are safe. Even if a passenger tries to race a door that is already closing, it is still the CR's duty to ascertain that no one is caught in the doors before allowing the train to start.
It is ironic that as more cars get sensors that prevent a passenger from being caught in a door, the cars without the sensors will become more dangerous. As passengers experience the safety doors and find that they can get into those cars with the doors closing without being trapped, they will be encouraged to try the same thing on the older cars. At some point the older cars will need prominent warning signs by the doors saying that they will not reopen.
The TA needs to ascertain the cause (not the blame) of each individual dragging incident, and take the necessary steps to prevent reoccurrences.
Tom
"The TA has determined that it is safe to board trains with children in strollers."
This is blatantly untrue. The TA was forced into accepting open strollers by media-hungry political animals.
OPTO or elimination of platform conductors? Or for that matter closure for 18 years of manahattan bridge? If you dont believe me the MTA testified that they have no intention of reopening the bridge to full service. You can verify that by going to 347 madison and asking at the public hearings room for the memo of the meeting on march 24 1987 13 years ago. If they deny having it, it is in the congressionel record.
Please, I'm quite sure that you can get the same documents and either post it via a link to your own website or perhaps Dave might find it important enough to post here. Working 10-12 hours/day leaves me little time for homework or challanges.
I no longer live in New York which (thank God) means I am no longer subjected to riding new york transit. as a result I am unable to request a copy However maybe Dave can request it from MTA again the hearing was on March 24 1987 regarding federal aid and the relevent testimony was from James Groom. However it is only a 32 cent stamp to mail a letter. You dont have to even type it. Just handwrite a letter that you would like a copy of the hearing transcript.
>>> However it is only a 32 cent stamp to mail a letter. <<<
Subway Crash has obviously moved to somewhere where they don't often use the U.S. Mail.
>>> The TA was forced into accepting open strollers by media-hungry political animals.
Regardless of the political pressure to do so, the TA accepted the responsibility of transporting children in strollers. They now must transport them safely. I would be happy to review any document published by the TA saying they are allowing children in strollers even though they know it is inherently unsafe.
Tom
Tom, do you have legal expertise to review and evaluate such documentation? Whether you do or do not is moot. If such information existed, it would be a violation of TA rules for me to distribute it without permission. You can try the Public Relations Dept. and see if it exists.
>>> If such information existed, it would be a violation of TA rules for me to distribute it without permission. <<<
If senior TA staff had great reservations about a policy change with serious negative safety implications they would be derilict in their duty in not bringing this to public attention (as opposed to secret internal memos).
As to open strollers in the subway, last time I looked, elevators in NYC subway stations were in the definite minimum. That means that anybody bringing a kid in a stroller has to remove the child and fold the stroller to go down the stairs to the station. That means they get to reopen the stroller once down the stairs. Seems like a lot of extra work. If you've got the kid out, why take the time to put them back in. If the parent is in such a hurry to hold the doors with the stroller, then why did they take the time to put the kid back in?
[...anybody bringing a kid in a stroller has to remove the child and fold the stroller to go down the stairs ...]
It's not uncommon for a stranger to help a mother carry an child-occupied stroller up or down stairs to or from the platform.
I see. So then, when the kid in stroller gets dragged, the mother can sue the stranger for contributory negligence.
I love it!
A plane is defective if it is unsafe. Same thing with trains cars or anything else. Sometimes the defect is not realized until later but once it is realized anyone who be he mechanic engineer or NTSB official that says doesnt matter is guilty of any fatalities that may occur. The ability of transit to make sure the doors do not have indication is well within their ability. By not doing anything about it just confirms my contention they attempt to kill them to justify government funding. Perhaps when the earlier trains were ordered they did not have the technology even though I doubt that. In any event they have it now and for the last several years. By not installing it they have been confirming my statementsd of callous disregard for safety
A plane is defective if it is unsafe. Same thing with trains cars or anything else. Sometimes the defect is not realized until later but once it is realized anyone who be he mechanic engineer or NTSB official that says doesnt matter is guilty of any fatalities that may occur. The ability of transit to make sure the doors do not have indication is well within their ability. By not doing anything about it just confirms my contention they attempt to kill them to justify government funding. Perhaps when the earlier trains were ordered they did not have the technology even though I doubt that. In any event they have it now and for the last several years. By not installing it they have been confirming my statements of callous disregard for safety
Well now, that would depend on your definition of unsafe. There is a major safety issue with the center fuel tank wiring on the Boing 747. There is a similar concern the the far more popular Boeing 737 has the same problem. The Boeing 737 200 has rudder troubles. The Folker F-60 has no slats, making it unstable in certain weather conditions. The early DC-10 is virtually uncontrolable if the #3 engine is lost because of no redundancy in the hydraulics. The Boeing 757 creates an inordinate amount of turbulance while in the air making flying within 5 -7 miles of it very perilous. Known or suspected safety defects on five different jet aircraft, sstill certified in this country to carry passengers in commercial service. Except for a snail's pace retro-fit of the Boeing 737 rudder, cite any action that has been taken (other than inspection) to keep the public safe. Keep in mind that each of these aircraft has had at least one accident directly linked or suspected linked to the defect mentioned. Now, what has the TA done differently. Simple - it's scrapping all of the cars not as yet modified. That's far more than the airlines are doing.
Well now, that would depend on your definition of unsafe. There is a major safety issue with the center fuel tank wiring on the Boing 747. There is a similar concern that the far more popular Boeing 737 has the same problem. The Boeing 737 200 has rudder troubles. The Folker F-60 has no slats, making it unstable in certain weather conditions. The early DC-10 is virtually uncontrolable if the #3 engine is lost because of no redundancy in the hydraulics. The Boeing 757 creates an inordinate amount of turbulance while in the air making flying within 5 -7 miles of it very perilous. Known or suspected safety defects on five different jet aircraft, sstill certified in this country to carry passengers in commercial service. Except for a snail's pace retro-fit of the Boeing 737 rudder, cite any action that has been taken (other than inspection) to keep the public safe. Keep in mind that each of these aircraft has had at least one accident directly linked or suspected linked to the defect mentioned. Now, what has the TA done differently. Simple - it's scrapping all of the cars not as yet modified. That's far more than the airlines are doing. WHere would you feel safer, on a 747 with a possibility of an exploding fuel tank (completely out of your control) or on an R-29 with a primitive door sensor system that will not harm you if you pay attention to where you are and what you are doing.
AS far as an exploding fuel tank goes I have very strong doubts about that. However you do raise an interesting point ASSUMING the NTSB is not covering things up. Still the facts remain we are discussing New York Transit and that they have many more drags than plane crashes. Passengers are expected not to know anything. Several years ago Ford was selling a a car that exploded on impact. I could say that drivers should be responsible since they were crashing their cars or I could say that Ford should know therre are careless drivers and cars should be built to sustain damage.
Yes but:
one plane crash = 200 - 300 deaths
deaths due to dragging are very rare
Plane crashes are out of the control of the passenger.
Drags are easily preventible if people don't take the door system for granted.
Except for the rudder fix on the 737, what has been done by the airlines regarding the F-60, the 757, the 747 or the early DC-10s? For that matter, what has been done about the drive screw failures on MD-80s? Inspections?
The TA modified over 4,000 subway cars in a little over 2 1/2 years to incorporate the door obstruction sensing. The redbirds were not done because they were intended to be scrapped by now.
Clearly, the TA has been more responsible to its customers than have the airlines. At the same time, do MNRR, LIRR or PATH have door obstruction sensing? Don't bet the farm because they don't. It just seems that they cater to a more thoughtful, careful customer.
Well, I'd say the crowding conditions on the LIRR are not usually as bad as those on the subway (at rush hour).
Funny, LIRR riders are not usually described as "thoughtful" here.
Thoughtful as in thinking - not considerate by any means. Anyone who has experienced the pushing and shoving while boarding the 4:51 to Ronkonkoma can attest to that.
[re LIRR riders]
[Thoughtful as in thinking - not considerate by any means. Anyone who has experienced the pushing and shoving while boarding the 4:51 to Ronkonkoma can attest to that.]
Or the 5:22. Or the 5:41. I hate Ronkonkoma.
You're comparing apples and (in this case) lemons. You're comparing a serious manufacturing flaw (it was designed poorly) to an issue that isn't an issue for a person with common sense. The defect in this case isn't the train, it's the person. The design is sound, it's the use that's improper. That's not the fault of the door, car, or Transit Authority.
-Hank
In thinking through this problem of drags, two issues come to light. Redbirds make up roughly 17% of the NYCT fleet. Despite that fact, the percentage of drag incidents they are involved in is somewhat lower than their relative fleet size. However, we know that the TA designed and installed a better mousetrap for the other 4,900 subway cars and the Redbirds not being included was a business decision (no judgement on right or wrong needed). If the door sensing system on the redbirds was so inadequate, where were the drags back in the 60s, 70s and 80s? Where were the drags with the R-9s and R-10s?
The fact is that drag cases have grown proportionally to thre external factors, immigration, the over-breeding of lawyers and the size of jury awards. In a 1960s movie, "The Mouse That Roared", one character says something to the effect that There is no venture more profitable than going to war against the United States - and losing! In today's society it's been changed a bit but the upshot is that there is no venture as profitable as suing a municipal government or agency because they didn't anticipate your every problem. The the redbirds worked fine for 30+ years and suddenly they have been spotlighted as unsafe. I suggest that they are the same now as they were then. It's the politicians, the media, and the courts that have made them an unsafe car.
There are some other differences.
Before the 1960's there were more conductors per train. They had fewer cars to cover for closing the doors and were less likely to close the doors on an alighting or entering passenger. I think that any comparison to the period prior to the introduction 2-man operation is therefore invalid.
There were significantly more trains prior to the financial crisis of the mid 1970's. It is not simply a question of frequency but also routing during off peak hours. This has had two results: more congestion on entry and egress from the trains and more agressive behavior from the passengers. The passenger behavior has evolved because missing a single train can now result in a 5 to 10 minute trip delay rather than the previous 2 or three minute delay.
The malfunctioning door crisis of the 1980's taught passengers that squeezing through tight openings was normal and no longer confined to contortionists.
The growth of an us vs. them attitude within NYCT. An example of which is: "The fact is that drag cases have grown proportionally to thre external factors, immigration, the over-breeding of lawyers and the size of jury awards." This appears to have prevented a serious examination of the these problems by the NYCT.
This is not a recent phenomenon. There has been a statutory obligation to permit all passengers to board and alight unhindered for almost 120 years. Case law has given passengers the right to enter trains while the door is closing for more than 90 years.
The BOT appears to have chosen to ignore its obligation with the R1-9 design. The NYCT appears to have continued this oversight. If you wish to scapgoat someone try Ronald Reagan - he said "Goverment is the Problem". Many people agreed with him and decided to sue government - to wit NYCT.
IIRC, once the gate cars went away, all trains were 2-man operation. The IND has always had 2-man operation, has it not?
Also, the behavior of the passengers that you cite isn't as mch a reaction to the thought of missing a train, but a relection on just what a craphole our society has become. Witness road rage, mothers beating each other up at a little-league game, Jerry Springer, and the WWF.
-Hank
It's already too late for us.
Pity the future, for they will decline even further.
When the IND ran 11-car E and F trains in the mid-50s, there were two conductors per train. In fact, if you watch the beginning of The Wrong Man where Henry Fond steps off the train at Roosevelt Ave., you can see a conductor between the first and second cars.
"Witness Jerry Springer, and the WWF. "
Proof positive of H.L. Mencken's statement that nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public.
IIRC, once the gate cars went away, all trains were 2-man operation. The IND has always had 2-man operation, has it not?
2 conductors were required for all 10 car IND and IRT trains and 8 car BMT trains through the late 1950's. It's easy to settle this one. You can find it in the NY Times index for the years mentioned. 2 conductors are still required for 11 car IND trains.
This is not a recent phenomenon. There has been a statutory obligation to permit all passengers to board and
alight unhindered for almost 120 years. Case law has given passengers the right to enter trains while the door is
closing for more than 90 years.
That seems unclear. If that's true, why is door holding a violation
for which the transit police have been known to issue a summons?
Have there been any more recent citations of this law since the
1930s?
The BOT appears to have chosen to ignore its obligation with the R1-9 design. The NYCT appears to have
continued this oversight.
What in particular about the R1 design makes you say this as
opposed to, say, the doors on the D types?
That seems unclear. If that's true, why is door holding a violation for which the transit police have been known to issue a summons? Have there been any more recent citations of this law since the 1930s?
I don't think the statutes permit passengers to hold doors They do have the right to try to enter trains after the doors start closing. I can't speak for the police. I would be curious to know which statute they cite in the summons. I do know of cases wherein the statutes permitted certain behavior and the police were quite creative in their citations. I just looked up some laws in McKinneys. These were the citations listed. I'm sure there must be some cases involving passengers caught in closing doors since the 1930's. They may not have resulted in any further clarification of these statutes.
What in particular about the R1 design makes you say this as opposed to, say, the doors on the D types?
The D types were single leaf. They took longer to close. This permitted passengers an easier time to enter through the closing doors. The R1's double leaf design was deliberately chosen to speed up closing time according to the contemporary literature.
OK, I'll grant that a large single-panel door such as the Lo-Vs
had allowed a little longer to grab the door. The Lo-Vs also
had self-reversing sensitive edges (akin to elevator doors, which,
contrary to media opinion, the current cars do not have :)
Still, do you seriously think that speeding up the door closing
time was contrary to legislative intent?
The Lo-Vs also had self-reversing sensitive edges (akin to elevator doors, which, contrary to media opinion, the current cars do not have :)
I was wondering when somebody would bring that up.
do you seriously think that speeding up the door closing time was contrary to legislative intent?
I believe that the legislative intent was that the doors would be kept open for a sufficient time so that all those wishing to enter or exit the trains would be able to do so. The court decisions relating to passengers trying to get enter while the doors were closing is indicative that such policies were not exercised in practice.
I doubt that the R1 designers considered that their faster door design would compromise passenger rights. They would have assumed that platforms were clear, when the conductor threw the switch. The conductor also had a better vantage point to make such a judgement than on today's cars.
However, I would hazard the opinion that today's operating practices combined with today's door design does compromise passenger rights. Moreover, I would submit that such rights are a legitimate criterion on which to base the design.
I had mentioned that nice IRT feature a few weeks ago; also that a car supervisor friend I had told me they had to remove it because the school crowd would tamper with it and trains came in as much as 30 minutes late. Thought you'd like to know the negative aspect of that nice safety feature. NYCTA operating rules required that doors not be closed before l0 seconds open; I found out as most RR people do that if you observe all the rules to the letter you'll never be on time.
Maybe the chances for getting sued are higher however there were drags in the 1980's I saw two of them and I am not an immigrant to the united states nor am I a lawyer representing them. I even remember someone getting killed in a drag in the 1980's. To confirm my story it happened in 1988 at 36 and 4th avenue front car of a B train southbound.
I never said ther were no drags in the 80s. I said that drags increased proportionally with immigration, an increasing glut of lawyers and the size of civil judgements.
New York City was always a city for tourists and foreigners. I therefore feel that there have always been drags and in the same amount. However since you are a superintendent I would like it if you can check out hard facts. Can you check if there really were more drags or is this just spectulation
[I never said ther were no drags in the 80s. I said that drags increased proportionally with immigration, an increasing glut of lawyers and the size of civil judgements.]
Yeah, but couldn't the increase in dragging incidents also be due to a lack of attention on the part of Conductors who do not take the time to glance out the window just before the train is pulling out from the station????
Doug aka BMTman
Yup - but without hard data, that would be speculation too.
And why would conductors stop looking out of the window now when they were doing there job for years before that? I therefore feel your idea is speculation. The fact remains that management has minimial concern
"The fact remains that management has minimial concern."
I would disagree with that statement whole-heartedly! However, how would you quantify it or prove it? At the operations level, such occurrences are given the highest priority when it comes to investigation & resolution. Fortunately, you do not have to document what you say here.
Whether it's trains, planes or buses when a accident occurs mngt. & gov. trys to prove that it was operator/conductor fault. The crew knows this so I would think they do the best they can. Those that have read my posts before know that I think there is barely enough folks providing service in the system now and too many in the back rooms in there nice cubicales.
Mr t__:^)
I think those with common sense choose the latter. But I only speak for those with common sense.
-Hank
TDude, you are accusing others, with some cause, of jumping to conclusions here. I think you are also jumping to conclusions about the mother being 100% at fault.
This is the kind of incident that is worth discussing here - how could the system be made safer? Its something that can be discussed, without the ad hominem attacks.
Could the system be made safer? Perhaps, but nothing is foolproof. If you believe that something can be made fool-proof, you underestimate the ability of a fool. Let me say this. My original anger arose from the immediate assumption that the car was mechanically defective. This charge was made without any evidence by two subtalkers who I have regularly disagreed with. Neither have produced any evidence to support their claim. Comparing the subway car involved in this incident to the R-44 or R-46 is as unfair as comparing a Boing 707 to a Boing 767. Both may be airworthy but the clearly you couldn't compare the built in safety factors of the 767 with the relatively primative 707 or DC8. The bottom line is that this type of incident was virtually unheard of before politicians created the hazard by forcing the TA to permit strollers. It was less common still until NYC was invaded by every 3rd world country. Wanna make teh system safer. How about Subway 101 as a mandatory course in highschool and for all immigrants?
Slow down, Mr. Rocker! I think you should clarify your statement and explain WHY it's become more common since there are many more immigrants in NYC.
But then, the immigrants in 1904 didn't seem to have that problem.
-Hank
Hank, the insults aren't necessary.
As to the immigrant comment, the privious generation of immigrants came to the USA to better their lives and wanted to fit in. Maybe they didn't know English when they got here, but they learned enough to get by and made damned sure their kids got a good education.
Now we have a generation of immigrants that are here for the gravy train and do nothing to fit in. We have Hispanics who won't learn English, along with a lot of folks from the East who don't wanna fit in, and create little Seoul and Peking and half the unpronouncable places in the Far East.
As to the door "problem" on the Redbirds: There is a "Cradle to the Grave care" mentality that society seems to have taken to heart.
Common sense is dead - when was the last time you bought a lawn mower that didn't have a dead man control, or an electric drill with a cord longer than 6 inches, or a ladder without a warning sticker on every rung or a hair dryer that didn't warn you not to use it in water?
Everything just mentioned is plain old common sense: Lawn mowers are for grass only, not anything else and that SHARP blade spins very fast, so hands and feet stay out. Ladders may tip over if improperly used. And so forth.
[As to the immigrant comment, the privious generation of immigrants came to the USA to better their lives and wanted to fit in. Maybe they didn't know English when they got here, but they learned enough to get by and made damned sure their kids got a good education.
Now we have a generation of immigrants that are here for the gravy train and do nothing to fit in. We have Hispanics who won't learn English, along with a lot of folks from the East who don't wanna fit in, and create little Seoul and Peking and half the unpronouncable places in the Far East.]
Whether that's true or not, it doesn't explain why door-dragging incidents seem to be on the rise.* Common sense isn't or at least shouldn't be dependent upon one's cultural assimilation.
* = I don't know whether that's actually true. Anecdotes aren't the same as statistics.
>>> Now we have a generation of immigrants that are here for the gravy train and do nothing to fit in. <<<
Sorry Dan, I think Hank's post was most appropriate, and your suggestion that today's immigrants are not trying to learn English and fit into American life is foolish.
New York has been a main port of immigration to the United States since the 18th Century, and there have been neighborhoods all along where foreign languages are spoken rather than English for all that time. One of my grandfathers immigrated from Russia in 1895 (he was dodging the Czar's draft) and died in 1944 in Brighten Beach still speaking mostly Russian. In the 50's I was in sections of New York where I heard mostly German spoken, other areas with Yiddish, Itallian, Chinese, Czechoslovakian and Spanish.
There is no evidence that the modern immigrants are any less interested in fitting into American life as productive citizens than previous generations.
Tom
Yes, but the previous generations all succeeded without demanding that they take their driver license exam in their native tongue. Nor did they set up somewhat exclusatory neighborhoods. They didn't come expecting that they'd have the world handed to them on a silver platter. The new wave of immigrants, save for the Asians, come here feeling they are owed something. A freind of mine works for a major retailer on a commision basis. Anything she sold that gets returned is deducted from her check. Of she's not there, they associate is supposed to credit any new sale made to the customer to the associate who got the return. This immigrant from a European country takes all the sales as her own, and complains when someon does the same to her. Oh, she won't do anything if there isn't something in it "to make it worth my while"
-Hank
So this ONE immigrant is typical of all immigrants? That is a stereotype, plain and simple.
Immigrants have always formed their own communities, through a combination of imposed segregation and the desire to be with people you know. Think about the lower east side, with its concentration of Jewish people, or places like greektown in chicago, or towns in Minn. full of Norweigans. Among caucasians, assimilation has been very extensive, so these areas have lost their ethnic identities. But they were certainly there in the past - your statement "Nor did they set up somewhat exclusatory neighborhoods" is simply false.
As for immigrants wanting things handed to them on a silver platter, well, thats not something I can prove or disprove. But as a teacher on Long Island and in an immigrant neighborhood in DC, my experience, working closely with many immigrant kids, could not be farther from your statement. I simply cannot imagine working as hard as many of the parents of the kids I taught in DC. The kids had plenty of problems, but it certainly was not from a lack of effort on their parents part. Often the big problem was that the parents worked 80 hours a week. These were immigrants from all over the world. Incidentally, most of the best teachers in this extremely challenging school were - you guessed it - immigrants...
You never taught in NYC. It may look like a stereotype, but having graduated a high school that is mostly immigrant, and having dropped out of a college with a large number of immigrant students, I speak from experience. While they didn't form cliques and had no problem with persons of other descent, many of them believed they were owed something from the government, simply because they 'deserved' better than 'others'. For an idea of how some of these students think, I suggest you visit www.thirdrailmag.com. I don't have a problem with the political issues, but much of it is over-the-top insanity. When I arrived at the scool, it was called 'Ictus Review' and was a literary and arts magazine with no political bent. In fact, it is still operating in spite of its charter, and students who were juniors there when I was a freshman are still running the show.
-Hank
>>> many of them believed they were owed something from the government, simply because they 'deserved' better than 'others' <<<
Hank;
The above statement is common to many college students born right here in the United States. If I remember correctly in the 60's (and they say if you can remember the 60's scene you were'nt part of it) there were quite a few young Americans who did not believe in work and thought the government should take care of them.
I looked over the website in your post and was surprised to see the college was on Staten Island. That is not an area one usually associates with a high immigrant population.
The magazine itself certainly did not seem to be proselytizing for any immigration issues, and I saw only two names in there that seemed foreign.
The magazine did seem to be radical leftist, which is similar to some of the publications in areas serving lower income liberal arts (as opposed to science , engineering or business) community colleges in the Los Angeles area. Of course many of those radical leftists will move toward the right as they go into the real world and earn money and get life experiences. A lot of the 60's flower children have changed quite a bit with time.
Tom
About 30% of the students at CSI travel there from Brooklyn.
-Hank
[While they didn't form cliques and had no problem with persons of other descent, many of them believed they were owed something from the government, simply because they 'deserved' better than 'others'.]
Yeah, but maybe some of that is legitimate. After all the U.S. has screwed many a country in the past. Of course it depends on the country they're from.
Also, I believe you're being general in your statement -- not all foreign-born students felt that way, I'm sure.
[You never taught in NYC. It may look like a stereotype, but having graduated a high school that is mostly immigrant, and having dropped out of a college with a large number of immigrant students, I speak from experience. While they didn't form cliques and had no problem with persons of other descent, many of them believed they were owed something from the government, simply because they 'deserved' better than 'others'.]
Immigrants? They sound like typical Upper West Siders!
>>> Among caucasians, assimilation has been very extensive <<<
David;
Now it seems fast, but to the Irish Catholics who came from 1842-1900 it wasn't that way. The anti-immigrant hysteria against eastern Europeans in the early part of the 20th Century (The Palmer raids). Rampant Anti-Semitism up to and during WW II (See the 1947 movie "Gentleman's Agreement"). In the Detroit area in the 1950's there was discimination against and non acceptance of Poles.
Tom
There is no evidence that the modern immigrants are any less interested in fitting into American life as productive citizens than previous generations.
Tom, I'll have to disagree with you on that one. My own ancestors, those I can identify at least, have been in what is now the US for nearly 400 years (the more recent ones arrived in New Amsterdam from the overrun Dutch colonies in what is now Brazil in about 1659; the earlier ones arrived in Boston in 1633 and on Cape Cod in 1626), so I have no immediate family experience to draw on, but what I do remember are the refugees from Eastern Europe after the Second World War and the especially the Hungarian Revolution. These people - many with good educations but at least an equal number without - arrived here because we represented freedom. They wanted to learn English, and while they spoke their native tongue at home they never used it in public, preferring instead to speak the language of their adopted country. They became American citizens, and embraced the civic responsibilities that go with citizenship. They put their children in public schools, and encouraged their children to make American friends, because they wanted their children to be Americans too. Yes, they honored the memory of their native land and kept some of its customs, but they enthusiastically adopted the customs of their new home. When at work, they spoke with the same enthusiasm as those of us who have been here for generations about the same dream - two cars in the garage, Disneyland, retiring to Florida, etc. They wanted to contribute and be a part of this country. Now, many of those who come here do not speak English unless absolutely necessary, even in the workplace. They do not become citizens, and condemn those of their fellow immigrants who do, but they complain about how the government doesn't accommodate their every whim. They put their children in private schools, or they simply keep them home, because they do not want them polluted by exposure to Americans. They wear their tribal loyalties on their sleeves. They return to their beloved homeland for vacation, and they make sure that their pension and Social Security checks will be sent there when they retire. They want to take what they can and give nothing in return. And I could go on, but you get the point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think your impression is not representative of the majority of immigrants - definitely not those I worked with. For strarters, private school is completely out of reach for most immigrants.
For strarters, private school is completely out of reach for most immigrants.
Not really. Private school does not necessarily translate into what you and I think of as a private school - a higher-quality, elite education. Rather, it simply means a school that is not public, often with uncertified, unqualified teachers who speak the same foreign language as its students, much like the so-called "Christian" schools of the 1960s South that were not religious at all in nature but merely all white. I work for a major international telecommunications firm with a great diversity of ethnic background among its employees, and prior to that spent nearly 20 years at IBM plus a couple of years with other multinational employers, so my observations are based on the people I have interacted with in that environment. A number of my co-workers - from India, Korea, Bulgaria, Formosa, and other parts of the world - send their children to what can best be described as "cooperative home schools". The ones I am familiar with (Korean and Indian-subcontinent-Muslim) are about 8-12 students in size and taught by one parent with the assistance of one or two grandparents. They do this so the children will not be "dragged down" by the Americans or risk have their religious values challenged.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A number of my co-workers - from India, Korea, Bulgaria,
Formosa, and other parts of the world - send their children to what can best be described as "cooperative home schools". The ones I am familiar with (Korean and Indian-subcontinent-Muslim) are about 8-12 students in size and taught by one parent with the assistance of one or two grandparents. They do this so the children will not be "dragged down" by the Americans or risk have their religious values
challenged]
Leaving aside the religious issues, it seems as if the main reason behind these "cooperative home schools" is the belief that U.S. public schools stink. These immigrants just might be more clever than we give them credit for being.
Let's also not forget that home schooling is become far more commonplace among native-born citizens too.
Not all public schools stink. And that reputation is gathered by schools where the parents don't get involved with their childrens education. The less involved the parent, the less successful the student. And those parents, who you see on TV, complain that it's the fault of the system. Damnit, if you made the kid do his homework instead of completely ignoring him/her while s/he played Nintendo all night, skipped school 4 of 5 days, and now, children raping children in the hallways. Of course, it's the fault of the system. It's not my fault that my child is undisciplined!
-Hank
Let's also not forget that home schooling is become far more commonplace among native-born citizens too.
I'm well aware of that; my older daughter is planning on home schooling my grandchildren. She's doing this because of what she perceives as the failure of the public schools with her niece, who lives in the same town. What she fails to recognize is that (1) her niece's problems are not the fault of the schools but rather the fault of the child's irresponsible mother and absentee father and (2) she will be depriving her children of balanced social interaction and qualified, educated teachers - she and her friends, none of whom are college-educated but all save one of whom have stable home lives, still can provide valuable home support to a good school environment but they do not have the broad set of skills required to educate their children in today's rapidly-changing world.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But the situation you are describing is not typical immigrants.
Think about some of the criticisms - These people are just coming here to get on the gravy train! But then we accuse them of home schooling their kids - not exactly lazy behavior.
Previously, you mentioned that the immigrants you grew up with were in the postwar period. I'd hazard a guess that the immigrants after WWII might have been a little different, culturally - they WERE coming here for reasons of freedom - more so than many today, but also more so than my great-grandparents. Perhaps there is more ethnic pride today. But if we looked at immigrant culture in 1895 I think we'd find lots of immigrant schools, home schooling, etc.
Mouse;
The schools you are describing sound very much like American schools in foreign countries. But there they usually hire Americans just out of college to teach on a one or two year contract.
Tom
>>> I work for a major international telecommunications firm with a great diversity of ethnic background among its employees, and prior to that spent nearly 20 years at IBM plus a couple of years with other multinational employers <<<
Mouse;
Are you talking about workers that were hired or recruited overseas to work in the U.S. as opposed to people who came to this country on their own and found work with these companies?
If it is the former, I am not surprised at the attitudes mentioned. They did not want to come to the U.S. and would have preferred to stay in their native countries, but found a higher paying job than they could at home. They do not see themselves as immigrants, but long term temporary residents.
In the case of Muslim immigrants, there is a natural grouping of co-religionsts from foreign countries because the American Muslim community is so small.
Tom
Are you talking about workers that were hired or recruited overseas to work in the U.S. as opposed to people who came to this country on their own and found work with these companies?
Most of the ones I know are people who came to this country to go to college and decided to stay. A large number have physician spouses. One in particular that I work with, a woman, came here to attend college, met and married a medical student from the same country while she was getting her MBA, and now has twin daughters who completed medical school and law school respectively a year ago. She returned to her native country for the girls' birth so they were not born American citizens; neither she nor her husband are citizens either.
They did not want to come to the U.S. and would have preferred to stay in their native countries, but found a higher paying job than they could at home. They do not see themselves as immigrants, but long term temporary residents.
I understand perfectly well. I didn't particularly want to leave North Carolina, but I do like to eat :-) Fortunately, it's close enough that I can still maintain my home there, get back on occasion, and plan to retire there. And as a Jew I'm probably more out of place in North Carolina, culturally, than I am in New Jersey. Of course, I'm technically an immigrant to North Carolina, but I consider my New York State birth to have been more happenstance than heritage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[There is no evidence that the modern immigrants are any less interested in fitting into American life as productive citizens than previous generations.]
[Tom, I'll have to disagree with you on that one. Now, many of those who come here do not speak English unless absolutely necessary, even in the workplace. They do not become citizens, and condemn those of their fellow immigrants who do, but they complain about how the government doesn't accommodate their every whim. They put their children in private schools, or they simply keep them home, because they do not want them polluted by exposure to Americans. They wear their tribal loyalties on their sleeves. They return to their beloved homeland for vacation, and they make sure that their pension and Social Security checks will be sent there when they retire. They want to take what they can and give nothing in return. And I could go on, but you get the point.]
Assuming for the moment that what you say is true (personally, I believe that what you say has some grains of truth, but generally overstates the matter), and that recent immigrants indeed do resist assimilation, there are a variety of interconnected reasons:
1. Concepts of "Americanness" have changed. The preferred metaphor is the salad bowl rather than the melting pot, in other words with one's culture kept intact rather than subsumed into a general American culture.
2. Immigrants tend to settle in cohesive communities, in which familiarity with English and with American mores is less important. True, there has always been some clustering (e.g. Little Italy), but it may have become more pronounced.
3. The easy availability of welfare has made work almost superfluous in many areas. Workplaces, of course, have long been terrific ways of assimilation. Immigrant welfare rates tend to be higher than for native-born citizens, although the differences aren't dramatic.
4. The biggest reason by far, if the most politically incorrect, is that most of today's immigrants are non-Caucasian ("VizMins," for visible minorities, to use an apt expression from Canada). I won't belabor this point, but I trust that most people will grasp what I mean.
In any event, I haven't yet thrown in the towel on immigrant assimilation, despite the existence of these factors. It may well be that first-generation immigrants themselves are unlike to assimilate, but we should wait and see what happens when their U.S.-born children reach adulthood in substantial numbers.
Those kids are the ones I was teaching. Believe me: they want very much to assimilate. When they are a bit older they will get more pride in their ethnicity, inevitably (middle schoolers are so obsessed with conforming in general that nothing else can compete). But by then they will know english, and probably be relatively unsegregated socially.
Consider: blacks are generally more segregated than hispanics in this country. In Chicago, blacks moved from a very foreign place (jim crow south) in the 20s-50s. Hispanics moved in, mostly from Mexico, much later. The immigrants, more able to resist segregation, are already comparatively unsegregated. (the segregation in chicago is pretty amazing). This does not suggest a pattern of insularity.
In chicago, it is very apparent that immigrants have always sought enclaves.
Peter, you make some valid points. Yes, the melting pot is gone; that's a major part of the problem. Even the salad bowl would be OK, if not what I would prefer. But that's not what I'm seeing, especially the last four plus years in New Jersey; rather, to keep extending the metaphor, it's now the TV dinner, where there are walls separating each ingredient. The physical clustering is even spreading to the suburbs; drive through the big, expensive subdivision across the road from my office for a case in point, it's almost 100% Indian professionals, including five co-workers of mine. (The subdivision was built by a prominent Indian developer who sold the lots privately rather than putting them on the open market so initially all were owned by Indians; now three or four houses have turned over since '97 and at least one of those was bought by an Egyptian couple who both work for my employer.) Your point about welfare may be valid in the large cities; it doesn't factor into my experience, however, either in New Jersey with well-paid professionals or in North Carolina with the Mexican population. There are other groups that unfortunately seem to have a disproportionate number of members who take pride in being the fourth and fifth generations on the dole.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Peter, you make some valid points. Yes, the melting pot is gone; that's a major part of the problem. Even the salad bowl would be OK, if not what I would prefer. But that's not what I'm seeing, especially the last four plus years in New Jersey; rather, to keep extending the metaphor, it's now the TV dinner, where there are walls separating each ingredient. The physical clustering is even spreading to the suburbs; drive through the big, expensive subdivision across the road from my office for a case in point, it's almost 100% Indian professionals, including five co-workers of mine. (The subdivision was built by a prominent Indian developer who sold the lots privately rather than putting them on the open market so initially all were owned by Indians; now three or four houses have turned over since '97 and at least one of those was bought by an Egyptian couple who both work for my employer.)]
TV dinner - now that's a gripping metaphor! It's up there with Pigs' "serial birther" :-)
Seriously, though, I find it difficult to understand why this clustering phenomenon occurs, especially among people, such as the Indian co-workers of yours, who probably have the resources to live where they choose. I'm as politically incorrect as you can get; the mere mention of an odious term such as "gorgeous mosaic" or "people of color" makes me want to vomit. Yet I would not want to interact solely with people whose backgrounds are the same as mine. Exposure to different cultures is one of those things that makes life more interesting. Those Indian co-workers, and surely many people like them, are missing out on a lot. I just don't understand why. Are they afraid of American culture?
Are they afraid of American culture?
Some aspects of it, yes. The ones I know want all the material culture but none of the rest.
And I'm just as politically incorrect as you are, although I have to hide that to do my job effectively (I'm a project manager with nearly 100 people on my team at the present time).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They may well be afraid of american culture. But there is nothing that they can do - their kids will mostly assimilate culturally, at least the wealthy ones.
>>> My own ancestors, those I can identify at least, have been in what is now the US for nearly 400 years <<<
Mouse;
Congratulations to your ancestors for choosing this great country (or colony) so early on. Mine came later when the immigration standards were tougher. :-)
But are you sure your ancestors identified with their new homeland immediately? Or did they perhaps keep their old language (rather than learning the local dialects of the indigenous people and living like they did) and customs and think of the old country with nostalgia?
>>> They wanted to learn English, and while they spoke their native tongue at home they never used it in public, preferring instead to speak the language of their adopted country. They became American citizens, and embraced the civic responsibilities that go with citizenship <<<
Here in Los Angeles, the public adult education school is jammed with people learning English as a second language. The students are from all over the globe. Citizenship classes are also full. In my work, I see many foreign speaking people in court bringing along their school age children to translate for them. The children speak unaccented English and fluently speak their parent's language. This no different than I remember from New York in the 40's. One of my best friends in grade school had Chinese parents who owned a shop in Harlem. They spoke enough English to run their store, but were ashamed of their thick accent, so when I visited their apartment, they spoke only Chinese in front of me, letting their son translate for me.
BTW I lived and worked in a foreign country for several years and learned the language and mixed with the locals, but I never contemplated giving up my American citizenship to take a foreign nationality. I do not find it strange that immigrants arriving in this country do no immediately desire to give up their nationality.
>>> Now, many of those who come here do not speak English unless absolutely necessary,even in the workplace <<<
In New York at mid century and in California now, non English speaking immigrants are limited in the jobs available, and many times minimum wage employers (sweatshops) seek out non English speakers forming a language ghetto at the workplace. In Los Angeles almost all janitors and bus boys are Hispanics from Mexico and Central America. It is not surprising that if all the co-workers speak the same foreign language better than English they would use it speaking among themselves
In Miami, many places require that an applicant speak Spanish. (Miami is a special case since many Cubans there consider themselves temporary refugees waiting to return to Cuba.)
>>> They do not become citizens, and condemn those of their fellow immigrants who do, but they complain about how the government doesn't accommodate their every whim. They put their children in private schools, or they simply keep them home, because they do not want them polluted by exposure to Americans. They wear their tribal loyalties on their sleeves. They return to their beloved homeland for vacation, and they make sure that their pension and Social Security checks will be sent there when they retire. <<<
I cannot recognize any of the things stated in the above paragraph in the foreigners I know in this country, although I am sure there are some who fit this stereotype. It does seem a lot like most of the expatriate Americans I've met in foreign lands though.
Tom
Here in Los Angeles, the public adult education school is jammed with people learning English as a second language. The students are from all over the globe. Citizenship classes are also full.
I'm glad to hear that. I wish it was the case here on the east coast.
It is not surprising that if all the co-workers speak the same foreign language better than English they would use it speaking among themselves.
That's certainly true in jobs at the lower end socio-economic strata. Where I see it, unfortunately, is in business meetings where there are people of several different origins, and those who are of the same ethnic group start talking in their native language, excluding their co-workers from the business discussion. I don't care what they do in their private offices.
It does seem a lot like most of the expatriate Americans I've met in foreign lands though.
You won't get any argument from me there. I spent a year in Barcelona as a student, back when Franco was in power, and I met a lot of "ugly Americans" during that time. Fortunately, the Americans I knew best were well-educated in the language and customs of the country. None of these were what I would call expatriates, however; all the adults were short-term residents, living there on a one or two year rotation with their employers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"New York has been a main port of immigration to the United States since the 18th Century"
Actually, 17th. The Dutch West India Company invited people from anywhere to settle in Nieuw Amsterdam. It was really the first all inclusive area in the New World. Sort of like Rhode Island, except based on financial gain and not on the principle of religious freedom.
No insult was intended.
-Hank
Yeah, what TDude said was nothing like Rocker's oral diarrhea.
But your assertions about this generation of immigrants are nonsense. As Tom pointed out, many immigrants in previous waves never learned English, or at least never stopped using it at home. Stop by the library and ask them about the non-english press at the turn of the century. There was a lot.
And a little reading of history will show that immigrants have always formed enclaves. See my response to Hank's post on this subject. And every first generation immigrant I've ever met was pretty much working his butt off. Look up how many immigrants were actually on welfare before welfare reform. It wasn't many.
Any reputable economist will tell you that immigration helps the economy- and we could not have an economy so good without them.
You are 100 percent right paul. Regardless of the fact that the passengers are rats to be killed on sight they deserve at least a fighting chance. No one should be killed because maintence on the trains is second rate. I am sorry train dude since you did defend me in the past but in this case I think Paul is right
ah subway crash.... i was wondering where you have been keeping yourself...or perhaps where the authorities have been keeping you... thank you for considering my viewpoint... i guess today is the day we stab our supporters in the back, because you scare me when you say "that passengers are rats that are to be killed on sight"... it's scary because i think you really believe it ... just between us two nuts, are you serious?... i hope you have a sense of humor, unlike some of the more commonly crazed railfans who are hopelessly humorless and burning with self-righteousness...
why can't i keep my mouth shut??
I was unable to post. Dave Pirmann denied any involvement in my banning but I think he accidently did it because he sent me an email that was actually nice and told me to try again. I did appreciate your missing me versus the majority of posters who have told me to get lost and my comments were of no importance.
In case you are interested the derailment was NOT an accident and I have evidence of it. As far as the passengers being rats the question is who believes it. The management believes it and the public believe it. At least the public with any control over transit. Or maybe they are whores and dont want to jeopordize their pay. I posted previously many stories on how management actually encourages killing of passengers such as Conductor steinbach and car 3534 and how they corrupted his worker compensation judges
I defended you because I thought you were correct, then. Now you sound like a 15 watt bulb. 2nd rate maintenance? In what way? On what basis to you malign the integrity of a skilled mechanic? On what do you base the charge that the maintenance was 2nd rate? I challange you to prove your case.
there was no reason that the train had indication enough to drag someone. I remember august 1992 I was on a B train that dragged someone. I pulled the cord and the conducter opened the doors to let him out However I was already so cynical that I dont even remember the station except it happened on central park west. We aren't even talking about a handbag drag. Both yesterday and 8 years ago there were full drags and both happened after conducter steinbach on franklin shuttle. If you dont like the term second rate maintence what do you call rci's that allow dangerous trains into service.
If your professionel pride is offended dont worry since the trains involved were not under your command
Thank you sir, for stating the obvious (and ignored!). And folks wonder why there are 9-year-olds having sex in school stairways....
The parents just don't give a shit.
-Hank
Do you have kids?? I have 18 years as a cop, the first 14 childless, the last 4 as a proud father. Before my sons birth whenever I went to an ambulance case where a child was hurt or had bruises I immediately got suspicious of the parents. However now as a father I realize how easy it is for kids to get hurt. Toddlers are always jumping and climbing and its impossible to stop them. In this case all the mother did was push her stroller onto a train. Everything said on this site about trying to rush into closing doors are nothing but unproven assumptions.
It is true about kids. My cousin's husband is a truck driver (She from Canarsie, Bklyn; he from Texas by way of Richmond, VA!) and drive cross-country. My cousin and the baby (<2yrs) go with him on occasion, and a few months ago, while loading up, she dropped her from the cab step. We all know how high up a Kenworth is, I'm sure. The ambulance arrived, and they called the cops, and another ambulance, because they were unable to transport the child because they did not have the proper equipment. Of course, they don't tell my cousin this, and the cops start playing 20 questions. WHen she asks why they can't bring the baby to the hospital, they say it's because they lack a baby seat. So Kenny Paul (her husband) climbs into the truck, and gets theirs. The questioning stopped immediately. Apparently, the baby seat
It is true about kids. My cousin's husband is a truck driver (She from Canarsie, Bklyn; he from Texas by way of Richmond, VA!) and drive cross-country. My cousin and the baby (<2yrs) go with him on occasion, and a few months ago, while loading up, she dropped her from the cab step. We all know how high up a Kenworth is, I'm sure. The ambulance arrived, and they called the cops, and another ambulance, because they were unable to transport the child because they did not have the proper equipment. Of course, they don't tell my cousin this, and the cops start playing 20 questions. WHen she asks why they can't bring the baby to the hospital, they say it's because they lack a baby seat. So Kenny Paul (her husband) climbs into the truck, and gets theirs. The questioning stopped immediately. Apparently, the baby seat was all the officer needed to see that this wasn't an abuse situation. She's ok. After hearing the story though (I knew she was ok immediately), I cracked up laughing at the image of a baby seat in a Kenworth.
-Hank
Well, it's not the first time... my son-in-law uses the child seat whenever he takes Alex (3+) for a ride around the block in his Peterbilt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's still funny to picture in your head, given the relative size of what's involved, and the stereotypical trucker (which Kenny isn't...quite.
-Hank
Oh, absolutely. Fortunately, while Alex likes Daddy's truck, he likes trains better :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All true - the only problem is that parents are supposed to collapse the stroller and carry both the stroller and child into the train. A little common sense goes a long way...
I have a six-year-old and must disagree with you. Toddlers can be stopped from running around in subway stations - just grab their hand and don't let go. When travelling in the subway, my daughter will still grab my hand, of her own free will, before moving anywhere.
To get the front wheel of a stroller caught in the door of a train implies that the doors were already closing -if they were wide open, they would have closed on the frame of the stroller instead.
Indeed.
-Hank
Yes Jeff. I have one daughter who was raised in the city and I love with all my heart. She's married to a counterpart of yours from an adjacent precinct. Together, they have givem me 3 fantastic grand-daughters, 8, 5 and 3. My daughter was hyperactive as a child. however, despite her outbursts, she was never permitted to run free on the subways or in any situation that could be considered unsafe. My eldest two grandchildren travel with me by train frequently. They know the rules and take their cues from me when to board and when not to. Clearly, in the current incident, the adult pushed the stroller into closing doors hoping that they would be re-opened. They didn't. Because she was too lazy, or too stupid to know better, this child will suffer. Anything else is after the fact. Had this moron used common sense, it wouldn't matter if the doors on that subway car worked at all.
In the defense of the parent in this situation, it should be pointed out that many recent immigrants to NYC will mistakenly believe that subway car doors will react like elevator doors: i.e., re-open when an object is caught between the rubber strips.
However, in defense of the NYCT, I agree that the old pre-Messenger ruling about closing strollers while entering and exiting the subway system should be re-instituted. Even with the new hi-tech equipment coming into the system this kind of tragedy can still and might still happen.
In any event, in light of the recent dragging incidents, the TA should produce a series of brochures and/or posters to alert parents w/strollers about potential hazards in the system.
Doug aka BMTman
They do have a stroller safety pamphlet, but it's been some time since I saw one.
-Hank
Remember those 'Ride Safe' ads of the 80s? I am looking at one that showed a picture of a crowded R-62, with an elevator floor indicator above the doors, a call button next to them, and a painting next to them on the other side; and a carpet, plant, and ash tray on the floor outside the car. The text: Elevator doors reopen at a touch. Subway car doors don't. Ride safe: A message from the Transit Authority.
"Clearly, in the current incident, the adult pushed the stroller into closing doors hoping that they would be re-opened. They didn't. Because she was too lazy, or too stupid to know better, this child will suffer. Anything else is after the fact. Had this moron used common sense, it wouldn't matter if the doors on that subway car worked at all. "
This is still jumping to a conclusion!
I've had the door close on me often enough when I wasn't rushing to catch anything to agree that she may not have behaved irresonsibly. Passengers can get "stuck" in the doors for any number of reasons. When it happens to me, it's usually because I'm forced to enter slowly by the people in front of me.
So I think it's better to wait for real evidence before deciding whether the woman behaved responsibly or not. And none of this effects the fact that there is absolutely no excuse for not equipping the doors with reliable, up-to-date sensors that would prevent this sort of thing from happening.
I'm beginning to think that there should be criminal liability for politicians and bureaucrats that ignore unsafe conditions. We should be moving towards platform doors and transponders for track workers, but the MTA won't even install sensors on doors and gap fillers and widen dangerously overcrowded platforms.
He had a train that repeatedly got indication that the doors were closed when they were really opn. He tried to inform management about this problem and was only harrased. Later he found out that there was an engineer by name of al garner that was fired and lost his pension for trying to fix the dragging problems. The state courts supported his termination. All I can say is kill the passengers since they vote for the politicions that alow such things to occur
There's far more to the Al Garner story than that. Tell the entire story. What were the charges he faced when terminated?
Since I doubt we'll see Mr. Crash post all the relavent facts, would you please...?
-Hank
I was not privy to all of the details regarding this contentious incident or whatever you want to call it. It would be unfair to comment without all the facts.
No! That stance goes against the fundamental ethic of SubTalk! :)
So it would seem. The original poster has some inside information but posts about a ficticious Conductor Steinbach. I have no idea what his motives are.
You are in b division ask the old timers about him or ask Rci Herschkowitz about him
>>> It would be unfair to comment without all the facts. <<<
That's never stopped you before! Why the change of policy?
Tom
The full story as far as I know it which means one newsday article goes like this
Al Garner was an engineer with New York Transit. He retired from transit and was informed that there was a problem with doors flying open and was asked if he could fix them. He came back from retirement and fixed them. The next day he was firedd for cursing on the job. Since he was fired for cause he lost his pension. He tried going to the courts and Inspector general and Osha all of whom were paid off and supported his termination including Robert Kiley then MTA chairman. Finally 7 years later the incident with Conductor Steinbach happened and the unioun used Steinbach report on the matter to force the federal judge Jack Weinstein to reinstate Garner with not only full pay to his termination date along with his pension but personnel damages from dave gunn, david feeley and goodlette. There were no damages from Kiley however even though he was their suppervisor and put out a memo that his termination was justified.
Funny how New York, for the first 70 years of subway operation, did without chimes/bells/horns to warn people that the doors would be closing.
I think al ot of the "accidents" happening nowadays are due more th the dumbing down of American than anything else. People do the stupidest things, jeopardizing their own lives, and then just think they can sue every entity involved for their own stupid actions.
Don't forget the number of years they operated with 'slam-shut' air doors and no PA systems to announce 'Peas Stand Clear of the Crows and Daws'
-Hank
That describes the Philly MFL until '97.
I was cleaning my toilet the other day when it occured to me how old subway tunnels like the original IRT´s are still holding up. Have these tunnels undergone any type of rehab since they were first built? What type of materials are used in the tunnel walls and columns? Which tunnels are bulit the best, IRT, BMT, or IND? How long do you all think the tunnels will last before they require rehab?
Off topic: I´m in Sao Paulo, Brazil right now on vaction visting family and friends. I´ve ridden the EMTU Trolleybus from Sao Bernardo to Santo Andre, to go shopping. I doubt I´ll get to ride the Metro subway here. Oh well, I´m going to the beach in Praria Grande (yep, in the middle of winter down here)...
I've often wondered that myself, although I don't have the answer. The tunnels are cast-iron. There must be groundwater in the soil and rock under a river. Won't they rust eventually?
Larry, Is that a retorical question ? We've all ridden the LIRR & subways thru tunnels that were leaking !
Mr t__:^)
(Larry, Is that a retorical question ? We've all ridden the LIRR & subways thru tunnels that were leaking ! Mr t__:^)
No, that's a serious question. Does a leak in one spot mean other spots must be near rusted through, and the entire tunnel will have to be abandoned, perhaps soon?
Don't know, but we sure have reason to hope that someone in the MTA/PATH are doing more then finding ways to pump out the water.
And what about tunnels that were barged in, sunk & bolted togather, can you say 63rd Street ... talk about a leaker WOW.
Mr t__:^)
The PATH tunnels are the ones that scare me. They look like they were dedicated by Charles Dickens!
I think only a small amount of the subway tunnels are cast iron. Like, only those that are original IRT, at least that would be my first guess.
As for the PATH - remember that you need oxygen, water, and ferrous metal for rust to occur. In the case of a subway tube buried in the muck under a river, you have the last two, but none of the first. So it does not rust from the outside. And leaks (letting water in from the outside) will certainly be dealt with quickly down there!!!
OTOH, it can rust from the inside . . . I assume it's painted and inspected, but what about the seams?
As nobody else has come up with it I may have some answers to actual construction thoughts. One is to my knowledge only the TUBES such as under rivers,lakes etc or deep underground are made of cast iron, not only on the IRT. The cut and cover as most of the Lex, all B'way-7th Ave [except for the deep stretches farther uptown which are concrete lined] all of 8th Ave below l45 st, and um-pteen other places are all concrete lined with the steelwork holding up the streets. Considering the age of some of these tunnels I wonder how much longer the concrete is good for. I'm amused at Josh Hill's comments on the PATH tubes, and they are rather spooky.
[As for the PATH - remember that you need oxygen, water, and ferrous metal for rust to occur. In the case of a subway tube buried in the muck under a river, you have the last two, but none of the first. ]
There's allways oxygen in the water (fish use it.) Ferrous metals do rust under the water but just not as fast as above ground.
Arti
There is oxygen in the water, but not in the muck at the bottom. I believe the tubes are down in that muck.
This equation illustrates exactly what happens to 4 iron (Fe) atoms when they come into contact with oxygen.
4Fe(s) + 3O2(g) --> 2Fe2O3
Water is not required, however it speeds up the process. I haven't yet figured out the equation with water.
That's a redox reaction. The half-reactions should be:
Fe0 --> 3e- + Fe3+
O20 + 4e- --> 2O2-
I'm sure you'd agree that chemistry can really be fun when it takes place in the subway.
And the redox does not work at all without the presence of at least a surface layer of water. Ions in the water (salt) help a lot...
The actual chemistry that is a bit more complicated. A pretty accessible discussion of it is in Masterton, Slowinski, & Stanitski, 6th Ed. (12 years out of date, sorry), pp. 737-740. If you find another edition of their textbook (its a gen. chem. textbook) look up "corrosion" in the index. Its a good textbook for this descriptive stuff.
I've been studying chemistry for a long time and I still get really confused by redox stuff.
Most, if not all, cut-and-cover tunnels are mainly concrete, with a steel framework. The original IRT line was generously waterproofed, which at the time was thought to be overkill, and less waterproofing became the norm.
IND tunnels leak the worst. The BMT and IRT tunnels fare much better.
Which under river tubes are in the best and worst shape? I'd say they have major leaking problems in the 53rd and 63rd street tubes.
Rutgers, Cranberry, 14th, and 60th street tubes, as well as the Joralemon (4,5) are in reasonably good shape. Steinway and Clark look spooky though.
The LIRR and PATH tunnels appear to be in good shape though.
Kind of bothersome to hear that 63rd Street is leaking while 100-year-old tunnels remain in good shape
After all the glory days of the various IND express runs , the Rockaways, and the southern express runs, especially the Brighton, having the R9's on the Eastern was an anticlimax to their careers. Kind of like the big roads downgrading their old mainline coaches to commuter runs. The M: to me that was bits and pieces.. the line of the wooden el cars to Metro, and duplicating the Jamaica line into the city from Bway-Myrtle inbound. The LL to me always was a drag except for the outdoor portion; I did feel at home with the AB's there though. The KK was neat running on 6th Ave, over Willy B, and best of all when it ran over the el all the way to Jamaica. But the J and QJ services were both neat with the R9's. It just felt right to have these last of their breed running on an el line, in their aged status much reminding me of what the Manhattan els were like, except for the wood cars. Best of all was catching an R9 on the J or QJ from Coney Island, up the Brighton local to the city, and then out to Jamaica over the el. A hard line to work with so many curves and timers but still enjoyable with these classic. Seventy plus years of history vanished when these last survivors of the old breed [on NYCT] were retired from this line.. their last home for the most part.
Not for some people evidently.
I was browsing through the international maps in London over the weekend, and found a couple of street-finder books for NY City (Rand McNally and also Hagstrom, or something like that). Although these were large scale maps with every street shown in the 5 boroughs, neither showed the locations of Subway stations.
OK, if I know the full name of a station, and its rough location, I can find it on the map easily, but what about the reverse, suppose I am in an area, do not know the Subway particularly well, and wish to know where the nearest station is?
So, is this an oversight, or a conspiracy? [For comparison, if anyone has access to an international bookseller, have a look at the London "A to Z", or better still, Nicholson's "London Streetfinder". For both of these, Underground stations are clearly shown.]
congratulations... you have discovered that the new york subway system does not exist and that there is indeed a vast conspiracy... the truth is that this is a virtual reality site, populated by the severely disturbed who gain pleasure from making believe that there is a subway system in new york city... they argue over equipment or the planning or the operation of the virtual subway... some talented graphic artists have produced photographs of what the subway cars would look like if they existed... others have drawn elaborate maps of the system... those with a flair for writing create stories of derailments to create drama and tragedy... up until now, i was the only one who acknowledged the vast fantasy being acted out here on subtalk... i must warn you that people here will question your sanity for stating the obvious... do not be intimidated... the truth is on the streets of new york city all mass transportation is by horse drawn coaches...
stand fast in your realization of the truth, and be comforted that you are as sane as heypaul, and that the mother country has an excellent mental health care system...
I am convinced that heypaul is merely a figment of someones imagination.
Unfortunately, some things are all-too real...
Doug aka BMTman
Who's heypaul? I havn't seen him posting here :-)
Arti
[I was browsing through the international maps in London over the weekend, and found a couple of street-finder books for NY City (Rand McNally and also Hagstrom, or something like that). Although these were large scale maps with every street shown in the 5 boroughs, neither showed the locations of Subway stations.]
One peculiarity of U.S. maps is that rail and transit tends to be overlooked. Many NYC street maps indeed do omit any mention of the subways, just as most road maps for motorists do not show any rail lines.
All Hagstrom maps show the subway lines. Geographia maps no longer show them. They will, however, sell you a laminated copy of a free MTA subway map for $6.95! Buy the full-size Hagstrom NYC 5-Borough Atlas if it is available, or any of the individual folding borough maps.
When I was in London with my wife a couple of years ago, we rode the Underground for the first time. Aside from the standard Underground map which is used by practically all British publications, I was able to purchase a map showing both the streets and the Underground lines, and was amazed to discover that, like Moscow, the routes bear no relation whatever to the run of the streets. This made more sense when I realized that practically the entire system was built as tubes, rather than by cut-and-cover, as in NYC.
Enjoy!
Bob Sklar
Bob
Thanks for suggestions. I took another look at the Hagstrom map in the shop. Yes, the subway lines and stations were there, but they are very light grey. Almost ghost-like...
The history books all say that the tubes followed the streets to avoid potential legal problems. This can't always be true, because London streets are often narrow, winding, or kinked. On the other hand, most maps take the lead of London Transport: only station locations need to be accurate, if a correctly drawn line gets in the way of an important detail, then move it.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Don't the older Metropolitan and District lines, which were built by cut-and-cover, follow streets more or less?
Pretty well. Where they don't, it is probably because the streets were moved on the surface due to redevelopment, bomb damage etc. These lines were built by cut and cover, so not following the streets would have been really expensive, but a lot happens on the surface in 130 years plus.
My first thought was that the map you were looking at couldn't have been from Hagstrom's. I immediately thought this because all Hagstrom's NYC maps show the subway lines and stations. The stations don't have names on them, but the lines carry the old labels ("7th Ave. IRT", etc.).
But then it occurred to me that some other company may own the Hagstrom name in the U.K., so I suppose it is possible.
It is true that Rand McNally maps don't show the subways, and this is a major deficiency of their maps.
The map you ought to try is the VanDam "NY Atlas" (the "A" in "Atlas" is actually the @ sign"). I am sure it is available in London.
This atlas features a unique 3-D design and good use of color. The VanDam maps show the subway stations (complete with station name and the symbol of every line which stops there); but, strangely enough, they do not show the actual lines.
For Metro-North and LIRR, VanDam maps show both stations and lines, and each station is marked with its name, as well as with the old "M" logo that the MTA dropped about 5 years ago.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Ferdinand,
Thanks for suggestion which I will try to locate. I was not looking carefully enough at the Hagstrom map.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
I've run into this problem a few times: Some of our journeys to the outer boroughs have included long walks between destinations which require a subway with which to return to Manhattan. Since I haven't memorized the locations of all the stations they (the stations) sometimes prove hard to find. Why aren't there indicator signs pointing the way?
Most outer borough subway users are residents, who know where the subways are. In Downtown Brooklyn, there are indicators pointing the way to a subway station (not usually the nearest, though, When you're right on top of the 2/3 station, signs point you to the (A/C, F). The map does a half-assed attempt at telling you the intersection the subway station is located (the street the line runs on in bold along the route, the station name is the other street). However, I too have gotten lost in looking for a station, the Transit Museum, 21st Queensbridge from Queens Plaza, going from one Far Rockaway (A ) to the other (LIRR), and vice versa. It helps to carry along a bus map, they (sort of) show where the stop is in relation to streets.
The A/C and F are IND lines. Could the city have been deliberately putting up signs to draw people away from rival systems?
The signs have the two-toned M on them, so they were post unification. However, they may have replaced older signs from the original IND, designed to lead people away from the IRT.
Read all about it
Another REDBIRD murder attempt
Peace,
ANDEE
The subject says it all. Don't blame the TA for the stupidity of the parent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I place blame on no-one, I was not there. I merely report the news.
Peace,
ANDEE
With a little luck, the News will print the following:
The only reason that woman got her child's stroller stuck in the train doors is probably because she ran and pushed her stroller into the doors, hoping the conductor would reopen them. If I tell you how many times I've seen someone with a stroller loaded with child into the closing subway car doors, no one would complain when the TA bans them for the sake of the children.
-HAnk
(If I tell you how many times I've seen someone with a stroller loaded
with child into the closing subway car doors, no one would complain when the TA bans them for the sake of the children).
The people who would follow this rule are probably the same people who don't get their stroller stuck now, but how about limiting strollers to the cars adjacent to the conductor (or, if OPTO, T/O)?
It's been a while, but I can tell you that the doors can close quickly some times, especially off peak, if you are a parent with a young child. You are trying to get one child on foot and a child in a stroller through the doors, terrified of being separated, and carrying a diaper bag and perhaps the stroller and other things. I felt I could handle it, but was very afraid of my wife -- who moves more slowly, and reacts less quickly -- taking the kids on the train. She just isn't terrified enough in my view, so I didn't trust her.
Let me tell you, if you are walking through the door, the asshole in front of you stops in the doorway cluelessly blocking your entrance, the doors are closing, and your five year old child behind you is cut off, that child will be terrified and WILL try to force his/her way in. I always try to push the kids through ahead, but have nearly been kept off the train by people blocking the doors.
And I always try to get right next to the conductor when I am with children. In fact, when I escorted 15+ six years olds on the train with a couple of parents for my child's birthday, I insisted that we move to the middle of the train, spoke to the conductor through the window to ask him to watch out for us on the way in, and told him our stop so he's look out for us on the way out.
hey larry... of all the posts i've read about the two draggings, your suggestion for people with strollers to board in the cars adjacent to the conductor is a truly elegant simple solution to limiting the danger of door draggings... it is really sensible and cheap and easy to put into effect... they warn people to stay to the center of the train in late night travel... your suggestion would be just as simple to implement...
Larry, I'm glad someone out there really does that when travelling with a group of children. Many times I've suggested that to groups, while asking where they are getting off. The usual responses can't be printed here. I do, however, have a problem with the strollers in the CRs cars -inevitably, they will park those things right outside the cab, making it impossible for the CR to get to his offside position on ytrains without transverse cabs.
The people who would follow this rule are probably the same people who don't get their stroller stuck now, but how about limiting strollers to the cars adjacent to the conductor (or, if OPTO, T/O)?
The TA, prior to the mid-80s had banned strollers. that was until the femenists led by Ruth messenger forced the TA to do otherwise. This was done because Ms. messenger found it politically expedient to pander to the femenists rather than be concerned with the safety of innocent children, placed at the mercy of their lazy, selfish parents.
(The TA, prior to the mid-80s had banned strollers. that was until the femenists led by Ruth messenger forced the TA to do otherwise.)
I never thought of feminists as pro-child. Besides, isn't New York anti-child enough without banning strollers, and thus banning children who aren't big enough to walk around at the destination, from the subway? Lousy schools. Only 30 percent of the housing units with 3+ bedrooms, vs. 60 percent nationally. And when your kid wants to play soccer, she gets put in a moonscape/mudpit punctuated by dog crap and broken bottles call the Parade Ground.
Geez, the elderly get half price, but when your kid hits 44 inches it's full fare.
[I never thought of feminists as pro-child. Besides, isn't New York anti-child enough without banning strollers, and thus banning children who aren't big enough to walk around at the destination, from the subway? Lousy schools. Only 30 percent of the housing units with 3+ bedrooms, vs. 60 percent nationally. And when your kid wants to play soccer, she gets put in a moonscape/mudpit punctuated by dog crap and broken bottles call the Parade Ground.
Geez, the elderly get half price, but when your kid hits 44 inches it's full fare.]
Kids don't vote, but the elderly do, in great numbers . . .
[I never thought of feminists as pro-child. Besides, isn't New York anti-child enough without banning strollers, and thus banning children who aren't big enough to walk around at the destination, from the
subway? Lousy schools. Only 30 percent of the housing units with 3+ bedrooms, vs. 60 percent nationally. And when your kid wants to play soccer, she gets put in a moonscape/mudpit punctuated by dog crap and broken bottles call the Parade Ground.]
Ah, but if you've got money, lots of money, New York's a wonderful place to raise your porch monkeys. All of these fancy-pants private schools (what's $20K tuition when you've just gotten a $3 million bonus?). Shopping sprees at FAO Schwartz. Plenty of illegal aliens who'll work as nannies for next to nothing. The subways? Why, those are for the _common people_, everyone in your circles uses taxis and limousines. Ah, money ...
What the hell is wrong with everyone. This is like talking into a dead phone. Airlines do not allow children to sit next to the emergency exit. They are not anti-child. It's unsafe!!! Amusement parks do not allow children under a certain height on some rides. they are not anti-child. It's unsafe!! The TA did not ban strollers because they were anti-child. Strollers are unsafe around subway doors. This is not calculus, friends. This is a fact of life. I saw the 'mother' of this child on TV tonight and she didn't seem like she came from the deep end of the gene-pool. Considering some of the arguments I've heard tonight. She's swimming in some interesting company.
I think Larry's point is that while there are certainly safety concerns here (which he mentioned), banning strollers (and thus many families) from the subway is not much of an answer in a city where people NEED to use the subway. Perhaps there ARE ways to make it safe - by thinking about the methods that Larry outlined, for instance.
Good to know that, based on the woman's appearance on the local TV news, she's dumb, so it was probably her fault. I guess the TA doesn't have to worry about the kids of dumb people, or those that look dumb.
The TA doesn't go by my evaluation of the situation. Those were my personal observations. My point was that with all she's been through, she still doesn't know what she did wrong but is sure someone else (in this case, the good people of NYC) should be held financially responsible. Perhaps this doesn't bother you. It bothers me.
Focusing on the "idiot" is an easy thing to do. My understanding is that some of the children dragged recently were not in strollers. In fact, MOST of the children dragged recently where not in strollers.
Merely because of one person's attitude or stupidiy, it doesn't mean that people without attitudes, who are not stupid, and who have folded up their strollers and are carrying them, have nothing to worry about. My experience is there is a lot to worry about.
No disagreement here. The subways are a dangerous environment. More for the workers who are injured in numbers greater than the 3 uniformed services combined. But it also a dangerous environment for the customer, too. Both from the environment to the equipment to the predators, it is a dangerous place. People who feel that they can mindlessly, obliviously pass through the system, safely, unfortunately they are wrong. Sometimes, tragically 'dead' wrong.
(No disagreement here. The subways are a dangerous environment.)
My point is that it is a particularly dangerous environment for small children, and that (assuming the parents aren't stupid enough to allow a toddler to run around near the edge of the platform) entering and exiting the train -- worrying about becoming separated or, avoid that, caught in the door -- is a key danger point.
Once again, I think the TA should encourage parents traveling with small children to move to the center of the platform and exter/exit near the conductor or, if OPTO, near the T/O.
And that is an excellent idea. One that I will be happy to take credit for if you choose not to submit it to the public relations department.
(And that is an excellent idea. One that I will be happy to take credit for if you choose not to submit it to the public relations department.)
Feel free to submit it. Might help, in a PR sense if nothing else.
Agreed.
So, to ask the next question: could a good campaign teach people to act smarter in the subway. From a purely financial viewpoint, incidents and injuries are very expensive in many ways. If an effective campaign (ads, notices, etc.) made a dent in this it might be a good investment.
We always tend to assume that subway riders cannot be made to change their habits without riot police and water cannons. But the advertising industry certainly does not feel this way about people, including those on the subway. There must be a way to get people to be smarter down there.
last night on the news a woman was interviewed at the Boro hall Station, the scene of the crime so to speak. She was young, obviously middle eastern and with 2 toddlers. After the reported asked about the particular incident and alluded to th fact that pushing a stroller with a baby in it, onto a crowded train could be dangerous, the young mother said, that closing the stroller would be just too inconvenient. She then said the TA had to find another solution to her problem.
In my rational way of thinking, I'd jail this woman as a potential child-abuser. This woman appeared to be middle class and somewhat educated. However, based on her answer she seemed perfectly willing to compromise her children's safety for the sake of her convenience.
[Focusing on the "idiot" is an easy thing to do. My understanding is that some of the children dragged recently were not in strollers. In fact, MOST of the children dragged recently where not in strollers.
Merely because of one person's attitude or stupidiy, it doesn't mean that people without attitudes, who are not stupid, and who have folded up their strollers and are carrying them, have nothing to worry about. My experience is there is a lot to worry about.]
In a sense it doesn't matter. It's the child who gets dragged.
The MTA could have put sensors on the redbirds. They didn't because, according to an MTA spokesman, it was "too expensive." The result: 49 dragging incidents in the first five months of the year.
In Las Vegas, children five and under ride the CAT bus system free.
Ages 6-17 get half fare. Not just with student passes, all the time, all day, all night, weekends, Chirstmas, July 4th, New Years, from the minute they turn 6 to the minute they turn 18.
(Las Vegas: Ages 6-17 get half fare. Not just with student passes, all the time, all day, all night, weekends, Chirstmas, July 4th, New Years, from the minute they turn 6 to the minute they turn 18. )
And the minute they turn 18 they can engage in prostitution legally, thus offsetting the cost of mass transit.
Not in Las Vegas - prostitution isn't legal there. You have to go about ninety miles north nowadays.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speak from experience? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) ?
-Hank :)
If Mouse thinks you have to go 90 miles north he does not speak from experience.
All I know is what my daughter has told me (she lives there). It's my understanding that the closest legal "ladies of the evening" are up in Parumph (sp?), which I think is about 90 miles north. And as you correctly surmised, Tom, I do not speak from experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[All I know is what my daughter has told me (she lives there). It's my understanding that the closest legal "ladies of the evening" are up in Parumph (sp?), which I think is about 90 miles north. And as you correctly surmised, Tom, I do not speak from experience.]
According to my trusty RandMcNally, Pahrump (the correct spelling) is not terribly distant from Area 51. It makes me wonder whether these ladies of the evening are perhaps somewhat more "exotic" than we might have imagined :-)
You might know better (having family in LV and all) but I believe that only the City of Las Vegas bans prostitution (like 49 states), Clark County does not.
Since CAT serves the county, it might be possible to ride to a brothel on a bus.
[You might know better (having family in LV and all) but I believe that only the City of Las Vegas bans prostitution (like 49 states), Clark County does not.
Since CAT serves the county, it might be possible to ride to a brothel on a bus.]
Actually, I read not long ago that the houses of ill-repute dispatch limousines to pick up their customers at their Las Vegas hotels, and to return them after completion of the play-for-pay sessions.
I believe I saw on an episode of COPS that prostitution was illegal in the city limits of Reno, and all of Clark County.
Oh, and how about a brothel bus? :)
-Hank
Clark County does now. That is a relatively recent change, I believe since my daughter and her husband moved there five years ago. In 1997 they banned the "entertainment industry" from having photographs accompany their advertising in the yellow pages.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talking about children's fares, two weeks ago I was in Toronto for the first time during my trip to Niagara Falls. I decided to try the Toronto Subway as I've heard about it on this forum and who knows if I'll ever be back again. Me and my wife put in tokens and since I'm used to NYC had my 3 3/4 yr old son Arthur go under the turnstile. Later we got on a trolley to try it out, we put 2 tokens in the farebox and started to walk back. The motorwoman called us back and said "what about the child?" I was surprised and asked how much? She stated 50¢. (about 35¢ US currency) Thats when I realized, 'lil Arthur is already a farebeater (the subway) at only 3 3/4!!!
if the son was IN the stroller the whole time...
........how did his face get bruised???
...jury?
["If the child was IN the stroller the whole time ... how did his face get bruised???"]
If he WAS in the stroller, then maybe his Mommy hit him in order to create an injury which could later be blamed on Transit.
What a classy statement. Yeah, she plotted the whole thing. Come on.
Please don't deliberately misquote me - it isn't polite.
Nowhere did I say that the child's mother plotted anything. Clearly, no caring parent plans to place his or her child in danger. I was merely "wondering out loud" if the dragging and the bruises might have occurred separately, with the bruises intended to impact the public perception of the dragging. That's all.
What you are "wondering aloud" is whether this child was deliberately abused by his mother - beaten - to dramatize the dragging incident. In my mind, you are speculating, with no grounds, that she has committed one of the most reprehensible crimes - a child being beaten by a parent. I am criticizing that sort of speculation - its basically rumormongering, and it serves no useful purpose. In many situations it is damaging. Don't speculate about things like this groundlessly in public forums.
I agree but the left leaning faction is doing exactly the same thing. They immediately speculated that the train was defective when there was no evidence to support it.
I've always felt that those who use their kids as doorstops should be prosecuted for child abuse.
Besides, Transit already has a WONDERFUL invention that lets people of all ages avoid being dragged while running for a train. That invention is called THE NEXT TRAIN.
Unfortunately, those who have the left-leaning gait don't see it so clearly.
I'm not considered of the left leaning gait (at least among City Planners), nor do I consider myself a moron. But I'm telling you, when you have young children you are trying to get through the doors, and someone stops just inside the door blocking you way, those doors can close fast.
I'm aware of it, and I worry about it. Some are less aware. But it is possible that someone could get a stroller stuck without trying to use their kid to extort a train delay to get taken on. Sure, lots of assholes push a stroller through to block the door. But that doesn't have to be true in every case.
Yeah, ok.
TO add a transit spin to this: Pop quiz, hotshot! Your foot is in the door, and they're closing. There's not much room in the car. What do you do?
-Hank
(TO add a transit spin to this: Pop quiz, hotshot! Your foot is in the door, and they're closing. There's not much room in the car.
What do you do? )
I step out. BUT a 3 year old child whose parent is inside the door tries to push his/her way on, because separation is scary and they don't understand the risk. If the three year old is on first (the right way to do it, probably), the parent will either try to get on, or pull the child off.
I am just as upset about people playing Russian Roulette as anyone. But those doors close fast when you are trying to get a couple of children in with you, especially with people who get inside the door and just stop in front of you. It is scary and difficult.
You pull out. And you pull the kid out, too, in your situation. Always put the child ahead when boarding, because you can be sure that s/he doesn't get into a more dangerous situation, such as falling between the platform and the train.
-Hank
Once again, the train is 500 feet or 600 feet long. The C/R is in the middle watching both sections. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect the C/R to see a 2 foot tall child several hundred feet away, on a crowded platform, surrounded by adults 5 foot and taller. This goes back to one of my original points: At what point is the parent responsible for their own child's safety and why do we hold everyone else responsible including government when the parent fails?
[Once again, the train is 500 feet or 600 feet long. The C/R is in the middle watching both sections. It is unreasonable for anyone to expect the C/R to see a 2 foot tall child several hundred feet away, on a crowded platform, surrounded by adults 5 foot and taller. This goes back to one of my original points: At what point is the parent responsible for their own child's safety and why do we hold everyone else responsible including government when the parent fails?]
Because the child is the one who gets hurt? Because how is a member of the general public supposed to know what the view is like from the conductor's window, and where are the warnings?
I'm be the first to say "who cares" when a bum or a drunk gets squished. If a kid wants to ride to his death on the side of a car or hop a turnstyle and duck into a train as the doors are closing, I think that's his problem, not the MTA's. But this sort of dragging incident strikes me as an example of ignorance rather than negligence, and even if the mother was negligent, the child had no say. I don't think the subway should be some kind of Darwinian culling ground, and it seems inexcusable to me that despite calls to do so the MTA failed to apply available technology to make the redbirds meet modern safety standards.
Trying to blame a rider for being dragged is ridiculous. The TA should be providing a safe transportation system for its riders. Unless they include an IQ test at the turnstiles it is necessary for the system to be designed to accommodate foolish, unintelligent and careless riders.
If a conductor cannot see all the doors before signaling the train to start then a second conductor or a platform attendant, or fail safe doors are needed.
I'm sure the TA has run the figures and decided it is cheaper to pay off the victims of dragging than to implement the remedies that would prevent dragging.
They went to the same business schools as the Ford executives who would not retrofit the Pinto gas tanks.
Tom
You know, I've seen several times a description of these 'super-sensors' that they automatically retract the door if something is stuck. AFAIK, this nowhere near the case. These 'sensors' are just microswitches placed closer to the 'door closed' position than what it used to be, which prevent the door circuit from indicating all doors are closed. I saw the moron on Ch 7 say all that 'bounce' stuff last night, the only part he got right was 'if the door isn't closed, this red light comes on.'
-Hank
[I saw the moron on Ch 7 say all that 'bounce' stuff last night, the only part he got right was 'if the door isn't closed, this red light comes on.']
Why does everyone from misinformed reporters to victims of grade crossing accidents and dragging incidents to Salaam Allah have to be called names???
"Why does everyone from misinformed reporters to victims of grade crossing accidents and dragging incidents to Salaam Allah have to be called names??? "
Because it seems appropriate to the occassion??
Jeff -- thanks alot. I've been trying to point that out for the longest time. If most of us here recall correctly, a gentleman from the left-coast of this country seemed to have a real problem with name-calling whenever he got "steamed" over an issue. There is no reason for it and only shows the immaturity of the poster.
About time someone else made note of this "bad web etiquette" besides me.
Doug aka BMTman
hey doug... you said that there really is no reason for the name calling... it just shows the immaturity of the poster...
the revelation of the immaturity of the social critics here on subtalk is an end that perhaps justifies the means...
I was just on the subway sitting next to a cute little baby in a carriage, and I must admit, I wasn't thinking kind thoughts about the MTA's priorities!
Maybe it was negligent on NYCT's part to even buy subway cars (in the early 1960's) that didn't meet late 1990's safety standards.
Of COURSE!! We forgot that the future comes along every day, and didn't anticipate that personal injury lawsuits would jump 7000%. We never realized that we needed to protect the people from themselves!
-Hank
WARNING-Cape does not enable user to fly!
Obviously, then, it was not you that I was referring to. You obviously understand the danger. This 'mother' didn't. She can't understand that the doors might close on the stroller and perhaps she should have boarded nearer the conductor or waited for the next train. but she was too impatient, stupid and/or lazy to do either. I heard her on TV tonight and she's not sure how it happened, what happened, or even why it happened. She knows two things though. It was not her fault and she's going to sue someone. Ah, America!!! Come here, find a lawyer and hit the lottery.
Just changed the name of the thread-Idiot is too strong of a word.
I didn't use the term idiot in the title. This is not a thread I started.
If you change idiot to mother, then downplaying the murder card is also a good idea.
You're right, I realized it afterward.
Since one human year = about two subway car years, we can think of the cars on the No. 2 as the equivalent of the blue haired senior citizen drivers who sometimes fail to pay attention to what they're doing and cause scare on the roads of towns in Florida and other retirement communities.
Surely, the indicator light for the doors should not have gone out if a stroller was stuck in the doors. A small child's arm maybe, but not an 18-inch wide stroller. Either the equipment or the conductor needs to be checked out over this one.
Are we sure the cars aren't fighting retirement the only way they know how?
>>fighting retirement the only way they know how?
the pep talk paid off!
.....yea they just keep on running .....
if YOU knew you were being replaced by
someone new.. wouldn't you DRAG your feet
towards the end to show you want to stay?
You know, you're describing my job situation....
Except I'm dragging my feet to get my bonus. And this company is just as technologically backwards as those redbirds.
-Hank
Now I'm going to have to rewrite the lyrics to "Rusty the Redbird".:-)
Who could have known the Redbirds would react to being dumped like Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction"? They seemed like such nice, well behaived cars all these years....
One thing I have to say:
Step all the way into the train!
Stand clear of the closing doors!
I think that one thing that the TA could do that could be helpful is removing the seats right next to the doors. That would stop people from blocking the doors.
That won't work on anything before R-44; there's mechanical equipment under the seats. PATH had their doors like this until the PA4, where that space was sacrificed for the 3rd doorway.
I'm not trying to be morbid but I think that all the recent insidents In the subway system are the "Revenge Of The Redbirds" Against the MTA for Removing them from service. I belive that any well functioning subway cars on IRT, BMT or IND Should operate Until they wear out!
They ARE worn out. Yes, I'll miss them too - I like the railfan window as much as the next person - but it's time for them to go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Their carbodies have seen better days, that's for sure.
I guess the 400 or so Redbirds which survive the R-142s' arrival will have to undergo psychological counseling to keep them from going off the deep end and snapping their doors shut on all the passengers after watching their brothers and sisters carted off to the scrapper. :-)
I think that at the least they should keep the Redbirds in service until they reach 50 years old, and that will happen around the years 2010-2015, also by 2020 the MTA already is planning to scrap the R-62 (the best car of the 1980's/90's) For a new cars. The 142's are to be scrapped between 2040-2045 (MTA says life expentancy is 40 years for subway cars) It looks like New Technology is not NYC subway cars best friend.
Christopher Rivera
Also lets go redbirds!
You want the R-142 to last 40 years but the Repulsive Rustbirds to last 50? That's obviously biased towards the RRs.
What makes you think New Technology has not been NYC's best friend? Because the TA does everything like it was 30 years ago?
We've just installed a magnetic card system, and other cities are using smart cards.
The R-44 and R-46 WERE NOT new technology. They were for New York City, but they were proven, used and continued to be used, without the detechnification of the R-44/R-46 in cities that aren't as anti-progress.
[Because the TA does everything like it was 30 years ago?]
Except the stuff they do like 100 years ago . . .
If I had to bet on which cars will make it to 50 years, I'd go with the R-32s. As much as I love the Redbirds, it's a sure bet they won't last that long. Many are in the advanced stages of corrosion. You'd have to fashion new body panels, which isn't going to happen.
The frames are also rotten, and that's even more important to the integrity of the train than the walls.
And impossible to replace without taking apart. At that point, you might as well put in new equipment. Once you do, you wouldn't be replacing anything and you're building a whole new car.
They are eaten up with rust and won't last another five years, let alone another ten. I know it's hard to accept, but many of the Redbirds (esp. the R26, R28 and R29) are past repair. At the very BEST circumstance, some of the R33 and R36 (not the singles) may make another five, six years tops.
The R32s will win the longevity contest and will run until 2015.
wayne
Just a quick question:
Were the R30s (the B Division's version of Redbirds) ever fitted with door sensors before they were taken out of service? Were draggings frequent on those particular trains?
Okay, that was two questions. Sorry.
I don't think anything was fitted with door sensors (the ones you're talking about) until '96, after a baby carriage was dragged on the #7.
[I'm not trying to be morbid but I think that all the recent insidents In the subway system are the "Revenge Of The Redbirds" Against the MTA for Removing them from service. I belive that any well functioning subway cars on IRT, BMT or IND Should operate Until they wear out!]
Seems to me they should save the ones that aren't too badly rusted and use them to restore rush hour service levels.
Very late last night on 1010 wins, they reported that because of police activity the E was running on the B from Queens Plaza to Stillwell Ave. Does this mean that the 63rd street tunnel was being used?>
I doubt it. It probably meant that the E ran on Sixth instead of Eighth Avenue, and travelled via the West End line instead of Culver in Brooklyn.
Please say you BOTH meant 'F'. The E could easily make its own terminal at WTC from the 6th Ave line.
-Hank
I doubt it since the 63 St tunnel does not connect to Queens Plaza.
Maybe the E trains were running along the N,R lines. Its perfect to get to Stillwell Avenue. If it ran along 6th Avenue it could have gone back to 8th Avenue around W. 4th Street.
Also the 63 st connector it not complete yet so thats out of the question.
Why would an E train go to Stillwell, police activity or not? It sounds like another reporter who isn't familiar with the system.
Yesterday while standing on the southbound platform of 42nd Street-Port Authority Bus Terminal Station, I watched as several Queens bound E-Trains come up the Express track heading in to queens, to a better surprise, they were all my second favorite cars, the R46s. So to kill the time, I switched over to the Northbound platform for some photo ops, the next R46 set of a E-Train pulled and I took the photo, at the same time, which almost caused a heart attack, a Queens bound F-Train pulled in on the Local Plat.
Is the E/F on a G.O. on the weekends? I know the Ds are, but I wasn't aware of the E/F.
Trevor Logan
www.nyctransitfamily.net
I'm a conductor on the A line, so as far as the E, I can tell you that there was a G.O. in effect. All Manhattan-bound A and C trains were being rerouted to the F line at Jay Street up to West 4th Street. At West 4th, the A and C were diverted back to the 8th Avenue local track. Queens-bound E trains were sent up the express tracks from Canal Street to 42nd Street so that E service would not be snarled from the A and C trains coming from 6th Avenue.
That F train you saw probably took the wrong line-up at the switch and wound up going with the A and C instead of over its regular route over 6th Avenue. So it had to run over the 8th Avenue Local and run with the E to Queens.
Cool, Then It Looks like I got some rare photos of the F on the 8th Avenue Line
Thanks
Trevor
What would cause a train to "take the wrong line at the switch" ... conductor hit the wrong button? Or a switch malfunction? ... just curious...
Human Error. Operator did not read the signal properly is the most likely cause, especially during a GO.
-Hank
Yeah, but you can read the iron too.
Every operator should carry Peter Doughtery's book as a reference!
The uptown F was in fact running on the 8th ave line. It was a posted G.O. The lower level local platform of W4th had the pink tape and signs directing people to go upstairs.
I saw that too, it is interesting to note that, while west 4th st. was signed correctly other stations were not signed at all, B'way-Lafyt, 23rd st. This inconsistent type of behavior is why people get stranded and develop attitudes about the TA. BTW- 34th st was "somewhat" posted, 28th st was very good, 42nd and rock center like 34th.
(I was on a "D" that went local)
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>28th st was very good<<<
oops, I meant 14th st,
No, that "F" train was supposed to run up 8th Avenue. I saw the GO posted on the walls of the W. 4th St station.
Also could someone tell me what on earth was the purpose to have all northbound "A" trains running local all the way to 207th Street from West 4th St. when you also had the "C" trains running their usual local service to 168th Street as well?
Don't know what the reason was this past weekend, but two weeks ago they were retiling the floor at 34th Street on the express platform's uptown side, so all the A trains were running local to 168th and sharing trackage with the C (and E below 42nd), while the A ran its normal express route downtown, including stopping at 34th Street.
Trevor,
I must have been there the same time as you. I was waiting for an uptown E at 42nd st. I saw A & C on the local track then an E arrived on the express tracks. While the E was sitting there, the F arrived. Since my destination was 179st, I got off the E and went to the F. Surely unusual, but convenient for me.
--Peter
For what it's worth, IMO the R-142 is a pretty sharp looking car. Much better than the R-62/62A's, which I think look kind of homely.
One question - what's the deal with the red area around the headlights? Is this meant to match the subway line (i.e, the #2 trains will be red, the #6 will be green, etc.)? That would be kind of neat, but it might be a maintenance headache down the road.
Just one fan's two cents worth.
- Jim (RailBus)
Yes, those R142s are a sharp looking car, can't fight that statement.
The red around the headlights from what I was told, but I think it more of a opinion, was that it was to represent the end of the Redbird Era! I would've like to have seen them use blue to represent the TA's true color.
Another two cents, NOW IT'S four cents! LOL!
Trevor Logan
www.nyctransitfamily.net
>>The red around the headlights...
the result of many sleepless nights
worrying about their date with the mulcher.
It's nice that you don't worry about your imminent date with the guys in the white coats who will take you to Ward's Island.
I thought all those places closed up. Kings Park's gone, Creedmoor's a drug rehab and sr. citizen houseing, only a couple buildings are still in original use; even Pilgrim's going to go bye bye in the next couple of years.
I wonder if the abandoned hospital is still on Roosevelt Island.
wayne
Only the octagonal tower, it stands, fenced in, in the center of the aptly named Octagon Park.
The prison, now housed at Riker's, is gone completely.
I think the red around the R142's headlights and the screened red line on the sides of the cab cars was a nice touch. Sharp-looking indeed. But I would have liked to see the whole front painted red to pay tribute to the Redbirds.
Maybe they'll use blue on the R143s
A shame indeed. I thought the original intent was to do the entire end in red? At least this is what the R-142 mock up led me to believe...
-Stef
Not just that. On the mockup, the left bulkhead window displayed a big red circle 2 like on the R62s. But the MTA went with an LED display over the storm door like on the R110A, but larger.
Since no one has posted anything about the great free rides on the Los Angeles Red Line this past weekend, I thought I'd jump in.
I did see some unusual people there. One guy kept muttering "It should be an open cut with two express tracks." I have no idea what he meant.
Another one kept talking in CAPITAL LETTERS with many !!!!!!! in his speech. He seemed to be trying to photograph some of the MTA's top secret equipment, so I of course notified some Deputy Sheriffs. I don't know what happened to him after that. I'll keep an eye out for any local news stories.
On a more serious note, I'm afraid the MTA did not get very high marks for the operation of the subway this weekend. Since the price was FREE, they could naturally expect large crowds, and presumably they were trying to entice these people to become regular riders, but the service left something to be desired.
They were running four car trains, although the stations are long enough and have markings for six car trains. This meant the passengers were being packed in rush hour style. 50% more capacity on each train would have eased the crowding and made a better impression on potential future fare paying passengers. Headway between trains was clocked at 7.5 minutes. More trains would have made a better impression, but I am not aware if this is the best the system could do.
I entered the first train I rode at the Civic Center Station which is one away from the Union Station terminal. The train was crowded. I entered the first car at the middle door and was not able to move forward because of the crowd. I did some timing of how long the doors remained open at the stations, and found them to vary between 40-45 seconds. Not very impressive, but in fairness, the riders were not experienced transit riders and seemed to amble on and off of the train. One man came to the door put his head in and looked around as if he was looking for someone, then finally stepped in. I felt like grabbing him and pulling him in. The doors have both a bell and flashing light before closing, and one time after the door I was standing near fully closed, it snapped fully open again, the bells and lights went again and the door closed. I do not know if the reopening was due to an automatic sensor or the T/O reopened the door.
The ride was smooth and quiet except for strong acceleration and deceleration. If you stood facing the side of the car and assumed a sailor's stance you could ride standing up without holding on. The air conditioning was on, but with a full load of people in the car it was inadequate. There are no openable windows in the cars, so complete air conditioning failure would result in sauna conditions (the platforms were not uncomfortably warm). I saw no evidence of an emergency cord which a passenger could use to stop the train (but a way for passengers to open the side doors manually). There is an emergency intercom system to communicate with the T/O, but that would not make me feel any better if something happened to him. I am not clear on all the safety features, but the T/O pushes a lever forward on a desk like console in front of him to make the train go forward.. If the T/O slumped forward from a heart attack, wouldn't his upper body on the lever defeat the dead man's throttle? I did not see any trigger or squeeze device there. At one point the T/O leaned over to pick up something from the floor and transferred his left hand to the lever while bending over, pressing it with just his fingertips.
At the North Hollywood terminal they were reversing the trains beyond the station and requiring all passengers to leave the train and the station. Since this was a new station, the crowds were the heaviest there. (The MTA was also giving free rides on a connecting bus line). One thing you have to say for the Red Line is that you will never find a dirty restroom there. Nor will you find a clean one either, there are none. Since this is a land where everyone carries a bottle of foreign water in a designer bag, there are no drinking fountains either.
When I got out of the station I found that there was not much there except a medium sized park and ride lot and several bus bays. Because of the subway opening there was a virtual tent city of various food servers (roast corn, hot dogs, BBQ ribs, etc.) and some entertainment.
After finding a port-a-potty set up for the crowds I returned the station to return downtown. Getting back on was like going to a popular attraction at Disneyland. There was a long line wending back and forth under a tent with a light spray of water to keep the patrons cool. MTA monitors policed the line and were stationed at entrance elevators and escalators to prevent overcrowding of the station platform.
When I got to the mezzanine I had the good fortune to be right at the head of a group held up from going to the platform until the train then in the station left. When they opened the escalator to the platform I was directed to go to end of the platform, and got great position for the first door on the train. As I said earlier these were not regular transit riders, so it was a piece of cake to get to the railfan window. (I didn't even have to kick the crutches away from the guy who was trying to get in ahead of me.)
The railfan window was disappointing since this is a transverse cab. There is a smoked glass window to the cab, but it cuts down so much light that even though the train has headlights, it was like traveling in the NY subways before there were headlights.
It is advertized that the train reaches 70 mph during the trip under the Santa Monica Mountains. I could not dispute the accuracy of that claim. The tunnel lights were flying by too fast for me to count them. There was no observable speedometer in the cab. There was one digital display that I thought was speedometer because I saw it reading 60 while we were traveling and later 47 while we were decelerating, but it read 38 while we were stationary so I suspect that was a brake air pressure gage.
I expected more of the OPTO than I saw. I have seen pictures of the London subway cabs, with in cab TV monitors and station cameras to assist the T/O. These were not present on this line. The T/O who sits on the left of the cab because the stations are center island, had to open a window and lean out to see the platform and the doors at each station. At every station except one which was on the right side of the train, the T/O started the train while still leaning out of the window and looking backward. I noticed that the T/O had quite a stretch to reach the drive lever while still leaning out the window and looking toward the rear of the train. This probably added to the time the doors remained open, and may be the reason they did not run six car trains.
When I got back to the Civic Center station, I took the escalator back to the surface. Because there is a large opening at the top of the escalator it contributes to the parallax effect and makes it look like a stairway to heaven. Very impressive, but I thought if it stopped while I was in the middle I would be one of those who waited to be rescued. (My guess without any measurement is that this escalator rises at least 50 feet).
I left after only two hours, very thirsty. I decided any more railfanning would have to be done under less crowded conditions.
Tom
is the new Terminal itself in North Hollywood(Where) or at Universal City?
Bob;
The terminal station is in North Hollywood, but since this was not intended to be the end of the line when the station was planned it looks like any other station on the platform and has nice but not spectacular architecture in the mezzanine.
The MTA does not identify the nearby streets. Here is a link to their web page.
North Hollywood Red Line Station
Tom
Seems to be a lot of interest in R-9s and the lines they ruled on, so
This weekend three buses pulled into the Shoreline Museum with 230 or so folks aboard. The mngt. decided to add a subway trip so as to give this big group a little something special. So the R-9 & Lo-V were put togather for this purpose (and we attempted to open all the windows to suplement the ceiling fans). For us trolley operators it was also a busy day with as many as five cars on our single track line at one time (I used all the items on my cheat sheet to pass the time while waiting for permission to proceed).
At the end of the day most of the trolley operators were hanging around just in case the subway set might make a extra run. The qualified operator obliged and even let most of them have a little handle time. I am personally pleased to see how many of the trolley guys like the subways too !
Now why did I said R-9 local ... well the lights dimmed when power was applied to the two cars full to the brim of happy rail fans on this hot day. There was actually two of these runs made for them, then one more for the other customers before we employees got the equipment all to ourselves for an express run.
For those that don't know the R-9 & Lo-V couple up just like they were made to with lights and fans operating in both while one acts as a trailer. Taking them apart is a three man operation: one on each couple (wrench in hand) and one in the cab.
Mr t__:^)
The unusual part is the R-9 and Lo-V were never coupled together in passenger service. But at Shore Line, anything's possible. It was great being at the controls of the R-9. I'll need some practice though. What a car!
Did I tell you? I went into the Quonset with the R-17 on my own? This R-17 Fan just loves the sounds of the brakes being released.... Positioned for the shop, that now left me with the daunting task of positioning 629 and 775 behind her.
I told you the Trolley Museum Really Rocks. Now, if I could only be done this project, I could turn my attention to the other veterans of the Rail.
-Stef
So, using a cutting key isn't enough to separate those two cars, eh? Or is it because the cars are coupled only mechanically?
Jeff H. will have to explain this one. The last time we tried to uncouple them the first way he tried didn't work and we had to do it manualy.
I think they share air only??
Jeff runs a wire on the roof to give juice to both cars with only having one of the cars pole up.
I did real RR work that day, spiking switches and uncoupling cars.
The R-9 has an H2A head while the Lo-V has a modified J, which
looks a lot like an H2, but has no electric portion (the IRT
used jumpers). The H2A (and C) couplers are really 3 pieces
sandwiched together. There's the top part which provides the
mechanical connection and two air lines, the bottom part, which
is the electric portion, and a small middle section that contains
a third air line. This is used to trigger the mate to cut when
you put in a cutting key.
When you mate an H2 to a J, the third air line tappet valve just
isn't there on the J side, and the valve is leaky on our R-9
so when you put in the cutting key, you just get a continuous blow
of air and the cutting piston doesn't advance. On our Lo-V, the
cutting valve under the car is frozen. One of these days I have
to undo a lot of piping, remove it, and repair it. So, neither
side has a functioning air cut and we use cutting wrenches.
From this layman's point of view both couplers looked the same, but that's why many of us in the 3/4 ton crew are happy to just do what we are told and maybe lear a thing or two in the process.
This weekend was another of those times ... Lou & I enjoyed spiking rails (due broken switch) and getting up close and personal to the couplers when we broke the train apart. You too can have some of this kind of fun, as there's always plunty of work to go around.
Mr t__:^)
Did anyone else catch the article (in the NYT?) on the Airtran where American Airlines complained that it does not provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan? It seemed clear that American is going to advocate for extending the system to Manhattan, and maybe LaGuardia. Having a powerful airline backing the use of Passenger Facilities Charges (PFC) monies for this purpose could make it a reality. What do people think: would a one sear airtran ride from Manhattan to Kennedy make a big difference?
Well, at the risk of responding to a topic which has been beaten to death in these parts, and responding with a viewpoint that is definitely in the minority here...
I think the need for a one-seat ride between Manhattan and JFK is overblown. After all, it will only be a one-seat ride if you live within a few blocks of Penn Station. As railfans, we tend to look at things from a somewhat optimistic perspective when considering whether something is really needed (let's reopen the Rockaway branch, so we'll have new trains and scenery to photograph, and then lots of people will ride those trains, so the public will see how vital mass transit is, and then they'll build more trains and more lines, and I'll take photos and ride those too...)
In assessing the need for a Manhattan to JFK train, it is important to consider who uses JFK, and their likelihood of needing a one-seat ride from Penn Station...
1. Business Travelers taking long distance trips (Europe or the West Coast -- but not day-trippers, they use LGA or EWR). These people will generally be coming to JFK from their homes. Very few of these people live within walking distance from Penn Station. On the other hand, you just might coax a few (but not many) of them out of their taxi's and limo's if they could take an LIRR train into Jamaica with an easy connection to the AirTrain.
2. Vacation travelers leaving New York. Again, these are people coming from their homes. Very few live anywhere near Penn, and given that Vacationers generally travel in groups, taxi's are more efficient and often, more economical.
3. Business travelers arriving in NYC. This could be a market, but Penn Station isn't near the major Manhattan hotels (tourist or business). When you consider that most travellers arriving at JFK have been on a plane for 5 hours or more, the idea of adding a transfer from the Train to the Subway (with your bags) just doesn't cut it. A cab is the obvious choice for this group.
4. Vacation travelers arriving in NYC. Here's a potential market, although it's limited by the fact that (again) the hotels aren't located near Penn Station, and cab fare for 4 would probably be cheaper than train fare for 4 (since they're taking $5 just to Jamaica, one can only imagine what they'd charge to Penn).
5. Airport and Airline employees. Most airport employees probably live in Queens and Brooklyn and would be unlikely to use a direct Manhattan service. Airline flight staff (pilots and crew) would probably be frequent users going to and from Midtown hotels with their compact luggage. In fact, one of the major hotels for flight crews is the one at 32nd and 7th across from the entrance to Penn.
These 5 categories probably cover 90% of the people using JFK on a daily basis. Obviously, there are exceptions for each of these groups, but overall I don't see an awful lot of demand for the service.
I think that the demand might actually be higher for the Jamaica to JFK service, but that $5 price tag is a real demand killer.
Chuck
[Well, at the risk of responding to a topic which has been beaten to death in these parts ...]
The first point is a good one, i.e. check this site for lots and lots of posts on the subject.
The only thing that I don't remeember seeing are stats on volumn of riders on: LI Bus JFK Flyer; Bus (Carey) trips from Manhattan; analysis of who is using the Long Term Parking (businessmen, crews, vacationers); quantity of folks transfering from A train at Howard Beach to Long Term Parking bus; Q10/Q3; taxi destinations; short term parking (drop off/pick up). Also how many employee cars come to the many employee lots (the was a car pooling survey done some years ago, so they have some idea where these folks are comming from).
The problem with data is that you still have the politicians in the equation & they have decided that this line needs to serve Long Island. Anyone ever seen a full JFK Flyer ?
Mr t__:^)
"The problem with data is that you still have the politicians in the equation & they have decided that this line needs to serve Long
Island. Anyone ever seen a full JFK Flyer ?"
I use the Rockville Centre station daily, and the most I've ever seen on board at that point is 6 or 7. Most of the time it's more like 1 or 2. I've never noticed a Flyer at JFK to see if ridership picks up along the way.
Chuck
[Well, at the risk of responding to a topic which has been beaten to death in these parts, and responding with a viewpoint that is
definitely in the minority here...
I think the need for a one-seat ride between Manhattan and JFK is overblown
In assessing the need for a Manhattan to JFK train, it is important to consider who uses JFK, and their likelihood of needing a
one-seat ride from Penn Station...
4. Vacation travelers arriving in NYC. Here's a potential market, although it's limited by the fact that (again) the hotels aren't
located near Penn Station, and cab fare for 4 would probably be cheaper than train fare for 4 (since they're taking $5 just to
Jamaica, one can only imagine what they'd charge to Penn).]
Not to mention the fact that visitors from elsewhere in the United States aren't likely to be familiar with transit. Sure, most of them probably will end up riding the subway at some point during their visits, but it might be asking too much to expect them to use transit when they're first arrived at the airport.
The same is likely true for business travelers from other parts of the country, with the added twist that their expense accounts make taxis and limousines even a better option.
[5. Airport and Airline employees. Most airport employees probably live in Queens and Brooklyn and would be unlikely to use a direct Manhattan service. Airline flight staff (pilots and crew) would probably be frequent users going to and from Midtown hotels with their compact luggage. In fact, one of the major hotels for flight crews is the one at 32nd and 7th across from the entrance to Penn.]
An article this weekend in the Times noted that Kew Gardens is sometimes called "Crew Gardens" due to the number of airline flight crew members who maintain residences (often shared pieds a terre) in the neighborhood. Airtrain to Jamaica would work fine for them. As far as aircrews at the Hotel Pennsylvania are concerned, as best I can tell they seem to use chartered van shutles for airport transportation. I suspect that their airlines, running as they do on tight schedules, would not want their flight crews subject to the unavoidable delays often encountered with mass transit.
These 5 categories probably cover 90% of the people using JFK on a daily basis. Obviously, there are exceptions for each of
these groups, but overall I don't see an awful lot of demand for the service.
I think that the demand might actually be higher for the Jamaica to JFK service, but that $5 price tag is a real demand killer.
People currently take cabs to GCT to catch an Exp bus to the airports. Train would beat the congestion on the bridges/tunnels and highways and make the trip time more deterministic. Would I have to use the LIRR it would mean taking 3 means of transportation, way too much hassle.
Arti
Even with a "one-seat" ride from Penn Station, you'd have to take 3 means of transportation. 1. Cab, 2. "One-Seat" ride; 3. Airport Circulator.
Many of the "one-seat" advocates forget that the frequency of service needed for the between terminal circulator is very different from that required for the City-to-JFK leg of the journey (not to mention the type of car and seating capacity). As a result, you'll need two different systems if you're going to have a heavy rail link from Midtown.
So most of those coming from the city will have a "3-seat" ride either way.
Chuck
I thought the Jamaica - JFK portion was the same vehicle as the airport circulator. Is this not the case?
This is a major reason for the use of the unique technology, as I understood it: the airtrain, unlike subways, will be able to make the sort of sharp turns needed for the airport circulator route.
If this is the case, you simply make one out of every 4 or so circulators a vehicle going off the grounds of the airport.
I think Chuck was talking from the prospective IF the train went to Manhattan, as the current plan is one driverless train.
BTW, supports are being installed on the Van Wyke.
Mr t__:^)
[Even with a "one-seat" ride from Penn Station, you'd have to take 3 means of transportation. 1. Cab, 2. "One-Seat" ride; 3. Airport Circulator.
Many of the "one-seat" advocates forget that the frequency of service needed for the between terminal circulator is very different from that required for the City-to-JFK leg of the journey (not to mention the type of car and seating capacity). As a result, you'll need two different systems if you're going to have a heavy rail link from Midtown.
So most of those coming from the city will have a "3-seat" ride either way.]
It won't work with a three seat ride. It has to be a two seat ride with transportation from Penn Station to the terminal on a single vehicle, or nobody will take it. Fortunately, the system was designed with that in mind. It will probably consist of a train that can be run manually on the LIRR tracks and automatically within the Airtrain loop.
(1. Cab, 2. "One-Seat" ride; 3. Airport Circulator.)
Look, anyone traveling with a large group, with lots of luggage, will not and probably should not use this service.
For those travelig lighter, it should eventually be possible to board an LIRR train at Penn OR Grand Central (or on Long Island), or a subway anywhere along the 8th and 6th Avenue lines, and make your way to Jamaica or Howard Beach, there to take the AIRTRAIN.
The thing about JFK is that travel by auto is so unreliable, because the Van Wyck is jammed almost all the time. If the airtrain was extended up the Kew Gardens interchange to allow access from a large number of highways, in fact, you might have people taking cabs to the Airtrain just to avoid the Van Wyck.
Personally, I would never try to take the lower Van Wyck. But I get caught in its traffic anyway just trying to get from the Whitestone to the Jackie Robinson.
[People currently take cabs to GCT to catch an Exp bus to the airports. Train would beat the congestion on the bridges/tunnels and highways and make the trip time more deterministic. Would I have to use the LIRR it would mean taking 3 means of transportation, way too much hassle.]
To the point and I agree 100%. "Deterministic" is a great word here. People who are going to the airport worry more than anything else about getting there on time. They don't want to deal with and suss out myriad train schedules and connections.
"People who are going to the airport worry more than anything else about getting there on time. They don't want to deal with and suss out myriad train schedules and connections."
And the streets and highways are a dependable system for getting to the airport on time?!?
Despite all the jokes and the detailed discussion on this board of every delay and incident on the rails, the subway and even the Wrong Island Rail Road has got to be faster and more reliable than driving, by car or taxi, from anywhere in the city west of the airports (not just locations within a stone's throw of Penn Station). Unless by "dependable" one means that one can depend on a traffic jam occurring. :^)
[And the streets and highways are a dependable system for getting to the airport on time?!?
Despite all the jokes and the detailed discussion on this board of every delay and incident on the rails, the subway and even the Wrong Island Rail Road has got to be faster and more reliable than driving, by car or taxi, from anywhere in the city west of the airports (not just locations within a stone's throw of Penn Station). Unless by "dependable" one means that one can depend on a traffic jam occurring. :^)]
I don't think the issue is one of objectivity, but one of perception and access to information. Wherever I am around the world, I know I can get to my plane terminal by hailing a cab. When I contemplate taking another form of transportation, all sorts of questions arise--where are the connections, how do I buy tickets, how frequently does it come, how long does each leg of the route take, etc. Have you ever suggested to a New Yorker that they take the subway and bus to the airport? They may be down to their last dollar, but they look at you like you're nuts.
That's because the subways don't go to the airport and buses in general are WAY too slow. New York needs to get out of the Port Authority. The only thing worse than a state government agency is a bi-state government agency.
I travel a lot and this year I have been to many cities in the USA that have transit to Airports( NYC/CLE/St Louis/SF/Oakland/Atlanta/BOS Most local people will have someone pick them up and drop them off. use Van Services or cabs. For the most part, 90 pct of the people I saw use the public transportation were workers at the Airport. and they use it every day. Except at JFK where there were about 4-5 German Speaking people who were waiting for the A Train(Any anybody in the Tourist Trade, knows how cheap Germans Are)
That's been my observation as well.
I think Airtrain can work, but only if it adheres to the "extension of the airport" concept. If it adds complexity or uncertainty or inconvenience or perceived hazard to the trip, it will be a failure.
Most flight crews who are based in another city usually go to local Airport Hotels. If they use a Hotel in the City, the Airlines usually has a contract wth a Limo or van company to transport them , since they usually will have a few crews going back and forth at the same time. Many JFK based crews usually live in Queens and use the Q 10 or park in the company owned lots for free and then use aAirline shuttlesto getb them to their terminals.
The market created by a Long Island Rail Road connection to JFK would comprise not only airport-to-Penn Station traffic, substantial as that might be. It would also open up possibilities for airport service by LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT to points throughout metropolitan New York and beyond. (Yes, I know there are problems with power system compatibility between LIRR and the Corridor lines; but dual-collection-mode systems are technically quite feasible.)
In many European airports the national railway system is represented directly, occasionally even with dedicated trains carried in computers as airline flights (I am thinking, for example, of the Lufthansa rail service from Koln to Frankfort Airport. In the U.S., airport rail has almost always had a more limited role, consisting either of a local transit operation (e.g., Cleveland, Chicago, Baltimore, and the new lines being built by BART and MAX), or a rather remote bus connection to main-line rail (the Amtrak-MARC BWI station, or the Newark Penn - Newark Airport bus, for example). The only recent North American approximation to the European model that comes to mind was the short-lived through-ticketing arrangement between US Air and Amtrak to Atlantic City via Philadelphia Airport, which ended after a year or so of operation when US Air discontinued its Philadelphia hub.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
[The market created by a Long Island Rail Road connection to JFK would comprise not only airport-to-Penn Station traffic, substantial as that might be. It would also open up possibilities for airport service by LIRR, Amtrak, and NJT to points throughout metropolitan New York and
beyond.]
Are we going to let a guy from Calif. come up with the best ideas for NYC ? How about JFK to New Haven ... the tracks are there !
Mr t__:^)
I think they're looking at this the wrong way. Planes are a link between subway systems!
[I think they're looking at this the wrong way. Planes are a link between subway systems!]
Now that's a profound thought Josh, but only us railfans don't think it's a joke.
Mr t__:^)
[...short-lived through-ticketing arrangement between US Air and Amtrak to Atlantic City via Philadelphia Airport, which ended after a
year or so of operation when US Air discontinued its Philadelphia hub.]
USAir still has a Philadelphia hub; Amtrak no longer runs to A.C.
The idea is that people will take a cab to the Airtrain terminal, which will in effect become an "extension of the airport." For many people in Manhattan a cab ride to Penn Station followed by a one seat ride to the terminal will be faster, more convenient, and cheaper than a cab ride directly to the airport--*if* service is frequent, simple, and fast enough that people don't have to worry about the uncertainty of schedules.
A well designed one seat ride would be a LOT faster than a cab from manhattan at most hours of the day.
"A well designed one seat ride would be a LOT faster than a cab from manhattan at most hours of the day."
Sure, if the one seat ride departs from in front of your building. Don't forget that for a good percentage of Manhattan residents (Upper East Side, Harlem, Washington Heights), you can probably take a cab or car service to JFK in about the same amount of time the subway or a taxi would take to get you to Penn Station.
Chuck
Huh? You can get from Harlem to JFK faster than the #2 will take you to Penn?
"Huh? You can get from Harlem to JFK faster than the #2 will take you to Penn? "
I guess you've caught me in a bit of an exageration there. But, it's not as much as you might think. If you figure that someone might have a 10 minute walk from their doorstep to the #2 or 3, 5 minutes waiting time and a 10 minute ride down to Penn, that's 25 minutes.
In 25 minutes, from Harlem in a cab, you're over the Triboro and past LGA on your way to JFK.
...if traffic is light.
That's a big if.
Then change to the train a couple times, probably, plus shlepping backs between the subway, up and down stairs. Think about it.
It might make sense to have an Airtrain depot on the upper east side, above the 59th Street traffic crunch, and on the Upper West Side as well. That shouldn't be particularly difficult to arrange, given that both are served by RR tracks. Service to JFK could run like this:
Upper West Side-Penn-JFK alternating with
Newark-Javits-Penn-JFK
Upper East Side-GCT-JFK (would require a reverse at GCT to get to the 63rd St. tunnel) or
Upper East Side-GCT-JFK via 33rd St. tunnel (would require the GCT-Penn link) or
LGA-63rd-WTC-JFK via the Broadway BMT
Sixty-third isn't ideal for passengers travelling from the upper east side and above, but it's a pretty good compromise because it serves both the East Side BD and the residential areas.
There should remain the line to Jamaica, and be another one to Downtown Manhattan via Downtown Brooklyn.
But then again, the LIRR should also be extended from the middle of nowhere in Brooklyn (It's not in the heart of downtown) to Manhattan via a more centrally located Brooklyn stop.
I'd use the Bway BMT for that. Atlantic Ave branch - Bway BMT at Jamaica. Eventually they could extend the Atlantic Ave line proper through a new tunnel.
You could apply these reasons to any major International Airport. Penn Station is I believe a starting and finishing point for a vast number of journeys from all parts of the NE Corridor and would make an idael hub if only it could be enlarged.
I have suffered the present arrangements on several occasions. The Air Train even at $5.00 must be an improvement, but if I could travel one stop to Penn that would be worth the money and some picture alongthe way.
Simon
Swindon UK
"You could apply these reasons to any major International Airport. Penn Station is I believe a starting and finishing point for a
vast number of journeys from all parts of the NE Corridor and would make an idael hub if only it could be enlarged. "
Not really. JFK is unique in that it doesn't handle the one type of passenger who could potentially generate enough trips to make the service worthwile. That passenger is the Short Trip business traveler (i.e. maybe one item of luggage and a briefcase, flight time less than 3 hours and destination Midtown).
In New York, those passengers use LGA almost exclusively. For that reason, I feel the proposal to extend the N train to LGA holds much more promise for actually generating passengers.
Also remember that Penn Station is the Western edge of JFK's clientele. Those who live in New Jersey will use Newark airport for their international (and domestic) travel -- unless they're flying to one of the more exotic destinations (Air Uzbekistan, anyone?).
I'm sure someone can provide the actual numbers, but my quick estimate is that 75% of the metropolitan area residents (I'm figuring Long Island, Queens, Bkln, S.I., eastern Bronx) would have to back-track to use Penn Station on their way to JFK.
The question nobody seems able to answer about the one-seat ride from Penn Station to JFK is "Who will actually ride it?".
Chuck
I agree about the light-baggage traveler thing. JFK is mainly for overseas flights, while almost all domestic flights use LaGuardia. Even an inexpensive (no bloody $5 gouge fee!) direct train to JFK would not gain the ridership of a LaGuardia subway extension -- airport and airline workers would use an *inexpensive* JFK link (they won't use a $5 train for daily commuting) but luggage-laden overseas travelers wouldn't in any significant numbers.
That said, I disagree about having to backtrack to Penn Station for one-seat service. "One seat" doesn't automatically mean "no stops" and a train from Penn making a single stop at Jamaica en route to JFK would still be legitimately called express service while making the train available to the non-Manhattan users of JFK you point out.
I agree that a train from Penn to Jamaica and then to JFK would serve many more people. I was reacting to those who suggest that an express service from Penn to JFK (bypassing Jamaica, and just about any other transit hub) over the abandoned Rockaway Branch is the best mass transit solution for JFK. Actually, I've always wondered why a spur was never built off the LIRR near Laurleton into the airport. (Of course, it wouldn't be my house or business that they'd be knocking over to build it -- so perhaps I'm not as much of a visionary as I'd like to think I am).
Even if you could get an LIRR train onto the grounds at JFK somewhere, you'd still need a frequent service (every 90 seconds or so is what you have at most other airports) to get people from terminal to terminal and to and from the LIRR and subway stations.
Chuck
Which airports have 90-second headways on the terminal-to-terminal trains?
At O'Hare, where the train also serves Economy Parking Lot E (Economy Lot F is served by a bus to Economy Lot E, which is why it's cheaper), headways are roughly five minutes, IIRC.
"Which airports have 90-second headways on the terminal-to-terminal trains?"
Atlanta and Newark (when the monorail is actually running).
That should be easy to achieve at JFK too, given that the system is automated.
[I agree that a train from Penn to Jamaica and then to JFK would serve many more people. I was reacting to those who suggest that an express service from Penn to JFK (bypassing Jamaica, and just about any other transit hub) over the abandoned Rockaway Branch is the best mass transit solution for JFK. Actually, I've always wondered why a spur was never built off the LIRR near Laurleton into the airport. (Of course, it wouldn't be my house or business that they'd be knocking over to build it -- so perhaps I'm not as much of a visionary as I'd like to think I am).
Even if you could get an LIRR train onto the grounds at JFK somewhere, you'd still need a frequent service (every 90 seconds or so is what you have at most other airports) to get people from terminal to terminal and to and from the LIRR and subway stations.
Chuck]
I don't think Jamaica is a significant stop. Most suburban commuters, including those from the prosperous suburban areas of Queens, will drive, and for reasons of demographics and tourism most other airport travellers will travel to/from Manhattan.
Those who live in New Jersey will use Newark airport for their international (and domestic) travel -- unless they're flying to one of the more exotic destinations (Air Uzbekistan, anyone?).
Not necessarily. By public transportation it takes me about two hours to EWR and about three or three-and-a-half to JFK. However, the best fare I can usually get from EWR to Vegas is around $800 round trip, while I can travel from JFK to Vegas for $209 round trip, or in any event less than $300 when that one's sold out. For that much savings, JFK is worth it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse. You must have a lousy travel agent who says the fares to Vegas are 800 bucks from Newark. Have them try America West and National Airlines. Newark is more convient to Manhatten then JFK and faster to get to. I usually tell that to my clients, unless they are going to stay with friends on the Island , Brooklyn or Queens, I usually book them into Newark, I tell them to take a Olympic Bus to Manhatten and then a cab. NJT if they will run a non stop train from the new Nwk Airport Station to Penn will be helpful(Maybe a stop in Newark)
I'm not sure if they will. I read that there's inadequate capacity on the Northeast Corridor and then there's the usual Penn Station slot problem. Both of course could be solved, but it sounds like they're no more anxious to accomodate direct airport service than the LIRR is.
Bob, I've checked America West on a number of occasions and they have tended to run on the high side, right up there with Continental and Northwest. Not sure if I've compared National; I'll keep that in mind. I don't use travel agents normally, I usually find my fares on the web. Delta from JFK has been my choice the last couple of years. From where I am in NJ, Philadelphia is about as close as JFK so my wife has gone via America West from Philly one time since it was the best fare available for the dates she had to fly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Also remember that Penn Station is the Western edge of JFK's clientele. Those who live in New Jersey will use Newark airport for their international (and domestic) travel -- unless they're flying to
one of the more exotic destinations (Air Uzbekistan, anyone?).]
A few months ago, I was walking to Penn Station along 32nd Street when I noticed a number of crew members in Air Uzbekistan* uniforms boarding a shuttle bus. I had two thoughts:
1) Air Uzbekistan must recruit its stewardesses from beauty contest winners. None of the matronly 50-year-olds you'll see on U.S. airlines, that's for sure.
2) Who in their right mind would fly Air Uzbekistan in the first place? You'd have to have a raging death wish ...
* = it actually might have been Uzbekistan Air, not the other way around. Either way, you'll never see me flying them.
I think it actually is Air Uzbekistan. I happened to get stuck waiting for someone at Terminal 4 in JFK a few months back. You can get a good geography / current events lesson by taking a walk around and seeing who flys once or twice a week from JFK.
A friend of mine took Kuwaiti Air to London to save a few $$. Interestingly, the majority of the passengers were Pakistani. I guess that there was either a good connection to Pakistan off that flight once it got to Kuwait.
Pakistan International Airlines commonly called in Karachi as PLEASE INFORM ALLAH
"Pakistan International Airlines commonly called in Karachi as PLEASE INFORM ALLAH"
And TACA in Guatelmala (I think. One of the Central American nations, anyhow) had such a bad safety reputation that TACA was said to stand for Take A Coffin Along.
TACA never had a fatality, but is know as Take A Chance Airlines. TWA- Try Walking Again, or The Worst Airlne, and anything with West in it like North and South-Worst.
[1) Air Uzbekistan must recruit its stewardesses from beauty contest winners. None of the matronly 50-year-olds you'll see on U.S. airlines, that's for sure.]
None of the age discrimination laws, which seem intensely stupid to me, given that part of the service was sex appeal.
Most countries outside of Western Europe, Canada, and the USA, discharge their flight attendents by their 30th birthday. That is why if you fly a Asian, Latin or East European Carrier, you will find younger women. Up until the early 70s this was true in the USA, but age and sex discrimination suits against the airlines stopped this. This I know from experience, and so does my wife, who when she was turning 31, would of had to quit her Flight Attendent Job on Hong Kons Cathy Pacific Airlines. I was hired by National Airlines as a Flight Attendent because was a male
[Most countries outside of Western Europe, Canada, and the USA, discharge their flight attendents by their 30th birthday. That is why if you fly a Asian, Latin or East European Carrier, you will find younger women. Up until the early 70s this was true in the USA, but age and sex discrimination suits against the airlines stopped this.]
In a novel I'm just finishing (Cryptonomicon, by Neal Stephenson), a character muses during a long flight that the airplanes operated by Asian carriers have secret doorways which eject stewardesses into the stratosphere on their 28th birthdays.
-While business travellers prefer LGA, JFK is the hub for international flights
-Most tourists, international or domestic, head to Manhattan
-Long Island, Queens, and Brooklyn residents will presumably board the Airtrain at Jamaica and Atlantic Avenue if it goes there too
-But demographics suggest that a disproportionate numbers of travellers will come either from the NY/CT suburbs--in which case they'll probably drive--or Manhattan. The demographics for airports are amazing, particularly LGA.
This doesn't really answer your question, I know--I'm as curious as you are about the actual numbers.
AFAIK, Penn Station is the world's most heavily used transportation hub. I think we should take advantage of that, not just for Airtrain, but for transportation in general. Instead, we've demolished and balkanized it, and that's only going to get worse when Amtrak moves to the Farley building.
Madison Square Garden is interested in moving further east. Why not trade land above the yards to MSG for the Penn location and rebuild the concourse? That's not an expensive building--it was glass with a metal framework. But it's in the right place to link everything together in a convenient and spectacular hub.
So:
-Newark, JFK, LGA service radiating from the concourse
-Amtrak, LIRR, and Metro North, ditto
-One stop connection via 8th Avenue line to the Port Authority Bus Terminal
-A high speed people mover running from 8th to 7th to 6th Avenue, giving complete access to most Manhattan subway lines & PATH
-A combined 34th Street ferry and heliport complex
-A crosstown link as follows:
Phase I: Heliport/Ferries/Javits-10th Avenue-8th Avenue-6th Avenue via existing trackage. Phase II: Join with PATH, then go 34th-42nd via existing unused PATH tunnel. Use two of the shuttle tracks & go to GCT/2nd-3rd/UN-new East Side Ferry terminal (or leave ferry terminal at 34th and go down to it and the heliport on the surface). Phase III: 34th St. Crosstown extension, with connections to the Lex, the Second Avenue Subway, and the 34th Street heliport/ferry terminal
Oops, forgot New Jersey Transit!
(Did anyone else catch the article (in the NYT?) on the Airtran where American Airlines complained that it does not provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan?)
If anyone from American Airlines made such a statement, they should be shot out of the skies. The airlines fought airport transit access tooth and nail, and (through the FAA) forced a half-assed compromise -- a completely separate system that does not connect to any other system, and cannot be used to go to the airport.
If they've changed their mind, they should start advocating for airport rent/PFC money to be used to extend the N to LaGuardia.
[(Did anyone else catch the article (in the NYT?) on the Airtran where American Airlines complained that it does not provide a one-seat ride to Manhattan?)
If anyone from American Airlines made such a statement, they should be shot out of the skies. The airlines fought airport transit access tooth and nail, and (through the FAA) forced a half-assed compromise -- a completely separate system that does not connect to any other system, and cannot be used to go to the airport.]
Maybe this is related to American Airlines' somewhat strained relationship with the Big Apple. Turns out that the feds are planning to grant some additional nonstop air routes to China. Delta has proposed nonstops from Kennedy (as well as from Atlanta), while American wants to fly from Chicago. American's plan has come under some criticism, as: (1) United already flys nonstop from Chicago; (2) New York is a bigger market than Chicago; and (3) Mayor Daley's brother is the former Transportation secretary and now runs Al Gore's campaign. So it could be that American, well aware of this criticism, is trying to get back into NYC's good graces by backing the single-seat plan.
(So it could be that American, well aware of this criticism, is
trying to get back into NYC's good graces by backing the single-seat plan.)
American is already in the City's good graces. Despite pulling its headquarters and maintenance operations out of the city, it still is on the list of the city's largest employers. No other airline has been since PanAm went under.
American or the other airlines really don't have to care about mass transportation to the airports. It's cities that like these big ticket projects, the airlines could care less. They know you are going to get to the airport no matter what. Which does make American's position a bit unusual. They are spending big bucks on new terminals however.
Well, one thing that mass transit to the airport may help with is folks who come into town to go to conventions. They may be only in town for a few days and on more limited budgets than people in for meetings, etc. I have read that the lack of an airport mass transit connection in NYC is a significant disadvantage for the city getting conventions.
So if airline X has a big hub in NYC, and the city is able to get more conventions, that means more money for the airline. Its a bit of a stretch, but...
[Well, one thing that mass transit to the airport may help with is folks who come into town to go to conventions. They may be only in town for a few days and on more limited budgets than people in
for meetings, etc. I have read that the lack of an airport mass transit connection in NYC is a significant disadvantage for the city getting conventions.]
Airport transportation indeed may be a hindrance to the city's convention business, but high hotel prices probably are a much bigger factor. Other issues concern the Javits Center. It's in a fairly isolated location, is too small to handle the largest mega-conventions, and even in its (supposedly) de-Mobbed condition is no bargain.
I was talking to a friend today about going to PC Expo. "It's a nightmare to get there!" he said, & I had to concur. Getting to that entire region of Manhattan is always a time consuming puzzle.
I don't know what percentage of the center's problems arise from any given factor, but the transportation situation is fairly inexcusable, particularly given that they could run a shuttle off Track 21.
[I was talking to a friend today about going to PC Expo. "It's a nightmare to get there!" he said, & I had to concur. Getting to that
entire region of Manhattan is always a time consuming puzzle.]
It would be one thing if a transit line had been in place when the Javits Center was built but then was abandoned sometime thereafter. But no, the city built the Javits Center in an area that was far from any transit. I find that difficult to understand.
I think the Javits Center was supposed to act as a spur to development. Considering the enormous positive changes in fortune on the West Side, including Times Square, since the center was conceived in the 1970's, I suppose it has to be seen as a success. I suspect that the extension of the 7 line westward to the Javits will eventually happen.
A lot of that development didn't occur. Hotels were supposed to spring up around Javits, etc., but the area is still much as it was.
[re Javits Center as a spur to development]
[A lot of that development didn't occur. Hotels were supposed to spring up around Javits, etc., but the area is still much as it
was.]
Lack of development could be tied into lack of transit access. When the city and state built the Javits Center, they must have known that it would be many years before the subway or other mass transit ever came that far west. It seems like an ultra-naive attitude to think that the Center (plus all the hotels etc.) would make a subway extension inevitable.
NY Subways still have a bad rep to out of towners. Most take cabs. If you look at a Convention in Javits Center, the Convention usually charters busses to take it s delagates to and from the host hotels. The only people who will take the subway will be employees at the Center. With Metrocard now they take the subway and transfer to a bus. Beside wouldn t the building of the 2nd Ave be more important that then extension of the 7 or L lines?
The 2nd Avenue is more important, but it's sort of apples and oranges because we're talking about $13 as opposed to $1 billion. Anyway, it seems fairly clear that the TA isn't building either.
Remember, the Javits Center was SUPPOSED TO BE BUILT ADJACENT TO TIMES SQUARE. In exchange for agreeing to drop environmental lawsuits on the gentrification issue, Hells Kitchen activists demanded and received all kinds of development restrictions on the West Side.
Then the Javits Center was moved, and the restrictions remained.
The idea of extending the #7 is to couple it with an upzoning of the low rise, low value blocks along the rail yards. The property taxes on the office development that would ensue would pay for the extension many times over. In fact, one variant has the gains in property tax revenues used to fund the Second Avenue Subway (not what I would do, but a favorite of someone two levels up).
Unfortunately, it's hard to break out of the status quo thinking without some other big project migrating to the area. Most New Yorkers see the Javits Center is there already and wouldn't make a big push to extend the 7 westward because they would not be able to see any direct usage of it other than to serve the center.
However, if the extension was coupled with the relocation of Madison Square Garden or construction of a new football or baseball stadium (though I'd prefer George keep the Yanks where they are now)then there would be more of a public push to get subway access over to 11th Avenue.
Did you see those articles on the future of the Javits area? There's talk of all sorts of things right now, including an Olympic Stadium.
I think there's a wonderful opportunity. We could build an Olympic Stadium which would become a football stadium when the ceremony was over--it would effectively be free, given the tourist money the Olympics would bring to the City. And we could move the Garden over too. If the Garden were colocated with a convention center extension, the Garden itself could be added to the center for huge events like CES or a political convention, and because conventions/games are typically held at different times the two could share traffic ramps and parking facilities.
So--
-New convention center/MSG across the street from Javits, with an Airtrain/Penn shuttle/future crosstown stop going to Penn using existing track. Convention center would be *competitive with Javits* to drive down prices. Shared parking for all facilities.
-Football stadium across the street.
-Olympic village housing/hotels which would become hotels serving Javits or office space when the Olympics was over.
-Trade current MSG land for new land and rebuild Penn Staton concourse, leaving office building where it is. The rest of Penn Station can be rebuilt over time as finances allow. A wonderful transportation center, and they wouldn't ruin Farley.
Who would play in the football stadium, it should be a baseball stadium for both the Yanks and the Mets
The idea is to lure the Jets back to New York when their stadium lease expires in 2008. In fact, a 70,000 to 80,000 seat stadium would absoutely force the MTA -- kicking and screaming -- to divert some of the money from their LIRR-Grand Central project to finance a No. 7 extension to the West Side.
If they did that, I'd love to see them have enough brains to also fund an extension either along the old NY Central tracks (unlikely due to NIMBYs) or along West Street (elevated between the traffic lanes) down to WTC, which would also allow people better access to the new Hudson River Park. Like the Javits Center, once built it also will be a way from any mass transit access.
[The idea is to lure the Jets back to New York when their stadium lease expires in 2008. In fact, a 70,000 to 80,000 seat stadium would absoutely force the MTA -- kicking and screaming -- to divert some of the money from their LIRR-Grand Central project to finance a No. 7 extension to the West Side.
If they did that, I'd love to see them have enough brains to also fund an extension either along the old NY Central tracks (unlikely due to NIMBYs) or along West Street (elevated between the traffic lanes) down to WTC, which would also allow people better access to the new Hudson River Park. Like the Javits Center, once built it also will be a way from any mass transit access.]
I agree, except that I'd run the trains along the surface. There's plenty of room, it's cheaper than an el, and there would be no ugly structure to block people's views or cast shadows (talk about NIMBY opposition!). You'd have to build overpasses though for the park. If you put escalators in them, they wouldn't impede access.
[[I'd love to see them have enough brains to also fund an extension r ... along West Street (elevated between the traffic lanes) down to WTC, which would also allow people better access to the new Hudson River Park.]
[I agree, except that I'd run the trains along the surface. There's plenty of room, it's cheaper than an el, and there would be no ugly structure to block people's views or cast shadows (talk about
NIMBY opposition!). You'd have to build overpasses though for the park. If you put escalators in them, they wouldn't impede access.]
Overpasses are needed whether there's a rail line or not. Crossing West Street on foot is a dicey proposition; a long wait for the light to change is followed by an all-to-brief Walk signal.
Exactly why the park will be an absolute failure.
The anti-Westway people haven't the slightest bit of common sense.
[Exactly why the park will be an absolute failure.
The anti-Westway people haven't the slightest bit of common sense.]
Yup. Although Westway was ridiculously bloated, with extensions into the river. What we need is something in-between--call it Westway Lite.
There's a section of park already here in the village and its pretty dismal--a jogging lane that looks like a small highway, a railing, a few plants in concrete planters. I call it Gribble State Park, because whoever's designing parks these days ain't exactly Olmstead . . .
Why Gribble then?
Because of the rotten piers--gribbles are little animals that eat them.
I'm not thrilled with the park, either, but people are using it.
True. It's better than nothing. A real shame, though, considering what they could be building.
Good point.
I'm not wild about them, though. I've used them on the East Side parks and they really impede access. I think underpasses would be better if not for the crime problem . . .
[re overpasses to get to West Side Park]
[I'm not wild about them, though. I've used them on the East Side parks and they really impede access. I think underpasses would be better if not for the crime problem . . .]
I suppose the traffic signals along West Street could be modified to make park access a bit easier. Right now, the Walk lights come on far too infrequently and for too short a period of time.
[I suppose the traffic signals along West Street could be modified to make park access a bit easier. Right now, the Walk lights come on far too infrequently and for too short a period of time.]
True, but on balance it seems to me we need that traffic flow more than we need easy access--unless of course there's a safety issue involved, e.g., old people don't have time to get across the streeet.
Who's going to take a train to a park?
Unless there's a facility there that people would use. Like Chelsea Piers.
Many people will take a train to the park. The Brighton to Prospect, most trains to Central. IRT to Bronx, Van Cortlant and Pelham Park.
Unless you think only people from Fifth Ave., Central Park West and the hotels on 59th Street use Central Park, there are a lot of people who take the train to a park.
The Hudson River Park -- assuming they keep cleaning up the river itself, would have its own uniqueness that would attract people from all over the city -- if it's not a freakin' pain in the butt to get there. An elevated extension of the 7 south from 34th Street to WTC (with overpasses to the stations along the line also serving as West Street crossovers) would both make the park far more accessible to the general population, and keep the park itself more in the public's mind, since commuters going downtown Monday through Friday to work would see the park along the way.
Of course, I'm sure there are people living along the west side who would rather there not be any better trasnit access to the park, so it could be come their own little public place. For the money they plan to spend building the thing, that shouldn't happen.
[Of course, I'm sure there are people living along the west side who would rather there not be any better trasnit access to the park, so it could be come their own little public place. For the money they plan to spend building the thing, that shouldn't happen.]
I don't think that's a problem. But they'll never go for an el, which would destroy views, etc. They won't even allow the restoration of service on the existing freight line.
If building the Park was combined with a West Street modficiation -- creating vehicle overpasses/pedestrian underpasses say at Chambers, Canal, Christopher, 14th and 23rd Streets -- you could probably fit in an elevated 7 train running above and between the north and southbound lanes that way.
Also as a public relations battle (which nowadays is what so many of these fights are) NIMBY opposition to the elevated line could be portrayed as those people selfishly wanting to deny the access of poor people in other parts of the city to the Hudson River Park (just picture the reaction of some of the people in the West Village to being labeled racially insensitve), while from an enginnering standpoint it would be pretty easy to show digging a subway tunnel so close to the waterline would be totally impractical.
A West Street modification? West Street is in the process of being significantly modified right now, in conjunction with installation of the park. It's not about to be modified all over again now.
Whether or not it should be modified is one question, but if some pol saw a chance to gain glory with an Olympic Stadium/Javits Center/West Street/Hudson River Park/WTC link, you'd be amazed how fast the money would be found for another modification, whether or not it was needed at the time. Look at how many cities are coming up with the money for new stadiums, indoor arenas and the surrounding infastruction to replace buildings that in some cases are less than 30 years old -- Atlanta, Dallas, Denver, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Seattle, and I'm sure I've forgotten one or two.
[A West Street modification? West Street is in the process of being significantly modified right now, in conjunction with installation of the park. It's not about to be modified all over again now.]
Sadly. It's a wonderful example of governemnt myopia, because there's plenty of room for mass transit. An extension of the rail lines to the Lower Manhattan Business District would cost practically nothing and would be excellent for business. And a simple busway, electric or not, would effectively solve the lower West Side mass transit problem at very little cost.
Actually, parts of the run are through nice areas and I'd hate to see them marred by a new elevated line. It's not really necessary given that trains could run on the surface to the west of the traffic. Eventually both the highway and the tracks could be covered over as in Riverside Park.
Um, did they widen Riverside Park to cover the highway while I wasn't looking? (The tracks, sure.)
Typo.
[Remember, the Javits Center was SUPPOSED TO BE BUILT ADJACENT TO TIMES SQUARE. In exchange for agreeing to drop environmental lawsuits on the gentrification issue, Hells Kitchen activists demanded and received all kinds of development restrictions on the West Side.
Then the Javits Center was moved, and the restrictions remained.]
Why in the world was it moved, to a transitless location no less?
The far west side between 42nd and 34th streets probably had the lowest concentration of NIMBYs (and the cheapest real estate) in the midtown Manhattan area.
(The far west side between 42nd and 34th streets probably had the lowest concentration of NIMBYs (and the cheapest real
estate) in the midtown Manhattan area.)
That's right. Of course, buying off the NIMBYs and then siting elsewhere anyway was not good policy. Beware of politicians trying to make deals.
$1 Billion just to extend the 7 to the Javits Center. How on Earth can that short extention could cost so damn much?
[$1 Billion just to extend the 7 to the Javits Center. How on Earth can that short extention could cost so damn much?]
Welcome to New York.
[Welcome to New York.]
Yep, that's always the excuse for everything that's wrong with the Big Apple. I've lived in New York my entire life and that's always been the excuse for why we have the highest sales taxes in the U.S., dumpy apartments for $1000 a month in lousy areas, horrendous traffic jams all the time, inept government officials, schools that are war zones, brutally hot summers (compared to the rest of the NE) and billion-dollar subway stubs that don't do much to relieve traffic. And Hillary Clinton running for Senate, knowing almost nothing about New York except what tourists and other obnoxious newcomers know.
Maybe Arnold Schwartzenegger should run for Senate in New Hampshire. Think people in New Hampshire would stand for it. I doubt it, even though he is a Republican.
"I doubt it, even though he is a Republican."
Strange, being married into the Kennedies and all.
[[Welcome to New York.]
[Yep, that's always the excuse for everything that's wrong with the Big Apple. I've lived in New York my entire life and that's always been the excuse for why we have the highest sales taxes in the U.S., dumpy apartments for $1000 a month in lousy areas, horrendous traffic jams all the time, inept government officials, schools that are war zones, brutally hot summers (compared to the rest of the NE) and billion-dollar subway stubs that don't do much to relieve traffic. And Hillary Clinton running for Senate, knowing almost nothing about New York except what tourists and other obnoxious newcomers know.]
New Yorkers have no one to blame except themselves. They may bellyache about the quality of life, but do absolutely nothing to change matters. When it comes to voting, they display the thoughfulness and independence of a herd of cattle being led into the slaughterhouse chute.
I understand that NYS regulations make it extremely difficult for NYC and other NYS localities to let contracts for public projects efficiently. I believe that the City is prohibited from hiring one general contractor for an entire project. Rather, it is required to hire each subcontractor sepearately. This was originally intended to prevent corruption and abuse, but has come to be a building trades subsidy act, viciously defended in Albany by the unions. How about beginning by rescinding these laws?
(I understand that NYS regulations make it extremely difficult for NYC and other NYS localities to let contracts for public
projects efficiently. I believe that the City is prohibited from hiring one general contractor for an entire project. Rather, it is
required to hire each subcontractor sepearately. This was originally intended to prevent corruption and abuse, but has come to
be a building trades subsidy act, viciously defended in Albany by the unions. How about beginning by rescinding these laws?)
It's known as the Wicks Law. There are many other laws like it, one of which, for example, prevents public entities from purchasing "wrap" insurance for both the construciton and occupancy of a building, at a discount of 10 to 20 percent. Insurance agents favor that one.
That's what Albany is, a place where connected people show up with a small wheelbarrel of cash and leave with a big wheelbarrel of cash, often sucked out of NYC. What are we going to do about it? I understand the Green Party is looking for volunteers to try to get Sheldon Silver voted out.
[(I understand that NYS regulations make it extremely difficult for NYC and other NYS localities to let contracts for public projects efficiently.]
[It's known as the Wicks Law. There are many other laws like it, one of which, for example, prevents public entities from purchasing "wrap" insurance for both the construciton and occupancy of a building, at a discount of 10 to 20 percent. Insurance agents favor that one.
That's what Albany is, a place where connected people show up with a small wheelbarrel of cash and leave with a big wheelbarrel of cash, often sucked out of NYC. What are we going to do about it? I understand the Green Party is looking for volunteers to try to get Sheldon Silver voted out.]
Municipal bankruptcy would be a quick and easy solution to the problem and wouldn't be contingent upon the cooperation of New York's sheep-like voters.
(Municipal bankruptcy would be a quick and easy solution to the problem and wouldn't be contingent upon the cooperation of New York's sheep-like voters.)
I'm telling you the problem is at the state level. If the state ever got hold of what little of NYC's budget power they don't already control indirectly, what would disappear are the services, not the waste. Believe it or not, NYC is now better run than most local governments in the the state (not saying much). But there is a limit to what you can do at the local level, due to those bastards in Albany.
This is one of the reasons why NYC should be a seperate City/State. They have been talking about this for 75 years, and still nothing is done. The State would not like it, because it would loose taxes that goes to Albany and then to the upstate counties, rather then returned to NYC.
I think Upstate residents (not politicians) would love to see New York City and Long Island become a separate state. They hate NYC and LI. Probably because they blame the City and the Island for high taxes and because the vast majority of New York State's wealth is there and they basically think the exact opposite; that it is their taxes that are going to the City and the Island towards wasteful spending.
Both sides are wrong and both sides are right. I, for one, definitely want to see the City, the Island and maybe Westchester split off from the rest of the state. And even a few politicians want to see this happen. A Republican State Senator from Utica (can't remember his name) has been one of the biggest voices of making the City and the Island into a separate state called South New York. Bless him, he may be one of the few New York State politicians who actually makes sense. I hope he has friends in high places who will go along with him, because splitting the City, the Island and possibly Westchester will please everyone (except tax-loving, inept politicians who haven't passed a budget on time for 16 years in a row and never will again).
(I, for one, definitely want to see the City, the Island and maybe Westchester split off from the rest of the state.)
Will never happen. No one is going to allow what is now New York State to have two additional Senators. My idea is to split the state at I-84, and have the lower half join New Jersey.
But only if we can leave our state "representatives" in Albany. If they will be coming with us, there is no point.
Why Jersey? Why not Connecticut?
(Why Jersey? Why not Connecticut? )
New Jersey is better run, and closer for most "South New York" residents.
South New York should be called New York, they could call North New York Albania as far as I care.
Arti
That's great. Both places would be named after their capitals.
Works for me. We have a state called Georgia which shares that name with an Eastern European republic. We can have a state that shares its name with another one.
"with an Eastern European republic"
And what's Western Europe then? Poland?
The threat of bankruptcy would allow a NYC mayor to call attention to these abuses in a very public way. Perhaps he could force the State to compromise.
It's not just a matter of corruption; the bureaucrats at the state level are much less competent overall than their counterparts in NYC and the Federal Government.
(It's not just a matter of corruption; the bureaucrats at the state level are much less competent overall than their counterparts in NYC and the Federal Government. )
Have you met some state bureaucrats, and compared their intellegence and dedication to the needs of ordinary people with the members of the state legislature? The latter are a bunch of posturing, pandering, pimps.
Damn, how do you reach the voters! They're taken in by the simplest political tricks. Even when a politician like Al D'Amato is so overwhelmingly corrupt and stupid that it gets into the press it's practically impossible to get rid of him.
[I understand the Green Party is looking for volunteers to try to get Sheldon Silver voted out.]
How can I help? I would love to see him get his inept, tax-loving ass get booted out of office. Then maybe he'll finally wake up and see what he hasn't done for NYC. Is there an address or website that has more information? Even though I registered Republican, I have no problem joining the Green Party if it means doing away with a certain corrupt State Assembly Leader named Sheldon Silver!
[New Yorkers have no one to blame except themselves. They may bellyache about the quality of life, but do absolutely nothing to change matters. When it comes to voting, they display the thoughfulness and independence of a herd of cattle being led into the slaughterhouse chute.]
New Yorkers voted for Giuliani, and it's hard to imagine a better choice. They also voted for Pataki, who's been a disappointment, but what was the alternative? They kicked out one guy who wasn't doing a good job, and got a guy who sin't doing a good job. Tweedlee and tweedledum, just like the Senate race.
[[New Yorkers have no one to blame except themselves. They may bellyache about the quality of life, but do absolutely nothing to change matters. When it comes to voting, they display the thoughfulness and independence of a herd of cattle being led into
the slaughterhouse chute.]
[New Yorkers voted for Giuliani, and it's hard to imagine a better choice. They also voted for Pataki, who's been a disappointment, but what was the alternative?]
Ah, but what about the state Senate and Assembly, as well as the City Council? You get the same anencephalitics re-elected again and again.
[Ah, but what about the state Senate and Assembly, as well as the City Council? You get the same anencephalitics re-elected again and again.]
Who the hell knows what they do? I think that's probably true in any region.
Some of our congresspeople are pretty scary, too. I see some of them speaking on C-Span sometimes, and they sound like slightly retarded schoolchildren.
[[Ah, but what about the state Senate and Assembly, as well as the City Council? You get the same anencephalitics re-elected again and again.]
[Who the hell knows what they do? I think that's probably true in any region.]
Yes, but in most parts of the country, the Sunbelt in particular, the local and state politicians can get things done!
That used to be here too, even in the days of Boss Tweed. Conversely, the southern states were mired in poverty for years, and still do worse than the Northeast in just about any measure--crime, per capita income, income inequality--except growth.
Are the politicians different, or the circumstances? I don't know if you saw that article in the Times the other day about Columbia's plan to build a high school, but New York sure has some vicious losers in its local communities. Heaven help any politician who has to deal with them . . .
Wouldn't be surprised if those summers are the fault of the politicians too.
Yeah, Congress figured out how to send the hot air extracted from the Capitol by the A/C right to NYC.
Air conditioning is the WORST thing ever invented for the United States. Back in the pre air conditioning days, Congress used to adjorn around Memorial Day and didn't reconvene until after Labor Day. Washington was a humid swamp in the summer, so they all went home. Once the House and Senate were air conditioned, they never adjorn for very long. That's three more months of mischief.
$13? Which is that for, the 7 extension to Javits or the Second Avenue line? In either case, I'll gladly pay for it. Where do I send my check?
Most conventions run shuttle buses from the major entrance points to NYC from the suburbs (Grand Central / Hyatt Hotel, Penn Station, PABT, etc) and the hotels they put guests at.
PC Expo is no exception.
--Mark
Its all over
That's right -- and the PC Expo shuttle buses are just as packed as the M34 and M42. (And the buses they charter aren't designed for loads of standees.)
Blame the people who are in charge of the Convention and even the Conventioneers, who use the wrong busses, or won t wait for the next bus, or charter too few busses. Not the Javits Center or the TA
Well, I sure blame the TA for not running adequate service on the 34th And 42nd Street lines when a convention is in town. And why can't they provide a direct shuttle to the subway? Dedicated bus lanes to Penn Station, with traffic agents at the cross streets? A shuttle to Penn using the existing tracks?
Why shouldn't I blame the TA? Isn't it the TA's responsibility to move people around the city? And if lots of people need to get to the Javits Center on certain days of the year, shouldn't the TA make sure they can get there? (As it stands, the vast majority of M42's go to 42nd Street Pier. At the very least, the TA could sent the vast majority to Javits instead on convention days.)
Because government agencies just love to blame one another. It makes it so much easier to get away without improving things . . .
The all-time champion of buck-passing has to be the Manhattan Bridge. "We're terribly sorry, but service will be delayed for a quarter of a century while the MTA presents its spectacular new production of "Waiting for Godot" . . .
As I stated before, Most conventions held at Javitts the people are from out of town and will use cabs, and the shuttle busses provided by the conventions to the hotels. and it will not hurt people to walk a couple blocks to work. Peoplke are getting lazy.
Am I imagining the crowds I've seen on the M42 and M34 trying to get to Javits for PC Expo in years past? (The shuttle buses aren't any emptier.)
And do you really think it is reasonable for thousands of people to be told to walk a mile (after having already paid their fare) in a typical New York summer because the TA is too lazy to reroute a few buses? I'm not even asking them to run more buses! I'm just asking that most of the 42nd Street Pier M42's be sent instead to Javits on the big convention days, particularly the ones when in past years the Javits-bound buses have
Have you ever seen the bus loading area at Javits at the end of a day of PC Expo? It's an absolute madhouse! The last time I was there, one day I boarded a bus to some hotel in the 50's and grabbed the 1/9 from there since all the buses to the transportation hubs (Penn Station, Port Authority, Times Square, Grand Central) had lines so long that I would have been lucky to make it onto the second bus. The next day I gave up on the madhouse and got an M11 on 10th Avenue instead -- even that was quite crowded (one of the regular riders asked me what was going on and why everyone was wearing those funny badges).
what mile/ Did you walk all the way to the East river, that is a mile, 2 blocks to 8th Ave will not kill most people.
Actually, 1 1/2 miles. In the midsection of Manhattan in general, the East River to Seventh Ave. is a mile. Going all the way across the island it about an extra 1/2 mile (of the island's main two-way cross streets in the central section, Houston, 14th and 86th are the longest, between 1 3/4 and two miles, while 34th and 96th are the shortest, at under 1 1/2 miles)
So it is not a mile from the Javitts to the subway, something like a 1/3 to 1/2 max
MapQuest claims it's half a mile from 11th Avenue to 8th Avenue. Add a short block or two for the walk from the building itself (keep in mind that the buses pull up directly in front of the building). And, as I said before, not everyone has any use for the 8th Avenue IND.
But you could always connect to some other line using the A-C-E
Yes, they could walk half a mile, cram onto the wrong train, and shlep through one or two transfers before getting to the train they want. (In the afternoon. Of course, they'd do the reverse in the morning.)
Or they could take an M34 or M42 bus that stops in front of Javits to the Manhattan north-south trunk line of their choice (or the 7).
And wouldn't it be even better if the M34 and M42 weren't invariably overcrowded? Or, better yet, if (say) the 7 train, with much higher capacity than a bus yet with the same subway connections as the M42, were extended to Javits?
Why is it so hard to understand that, yes, people can walk wherever they need to go, but that there's no reason they should be forced to? (As Peter Rosa points out, this makes NYC unattractive for conventions.)
Also, many people who attend conventions aren't familiar with the intricacies of transit. They look at a map or the convention literature and take what they assume is the suitable bus.
I find this whole conversation sort of ridiculous. The MTA runs empty buses at weird hours of the night to all sorts of strange areas. Does it take a supergenius to look at the Javits situation and say "OK, there's high demand here, we'd better divert some buses to fill it"?
The Javits Center is at 11th Avenue. It's three blocks to 8th Avenue.
Three long blocks. Nearly half a mile, if not more. That's nearly a mile round-trip.
The 8th Avenue IND isn't particular convenient for everyone. It's more than three blocks to 7th Avenue, Broadway, 6th Avenue, and Park Avenue South.
It's the summer. Many people who will gladly walk a mile in cool weather will balk at walking a mile in typical New York summer weather.
At the end of the day, many conventioneers have their arms full with bags and boxes full of literature. And prizes. In 1994 or so I won a tree (!) at PC Expo; I'm probably one of the few people ever to hold a sequoia over his head on a crowded 2 train.
By your argument all bus service should be cancelled. Everyone should just walk to the subway! (Unless the subway is shut down too.) I prefer to look at the overcrowding the current service is getting; just think about how many people would use it if it weren't overcrowded. People need to get east from Javits, and despite your argument, many of them aren't interested in walking.
[reasons why making people walk to the Javits Center is a bad idea]
[ 1.The Javits Center is at 11th Avenue. It's three blocks to 8th Avenue.
2.Three long blocks. Nearly half a mile, if not more. That's nearly a mile round-trip.
3.The 8th Avenue IND isn't particular convenient for everyone. It's more than three blocks to 7th Avenue, Broadway, 6th Avenue, and Park Avenue South.
4.It's the summer. Many people who will gladly walk a mile in cool weather will balk at walking a mile in typical New York summer weather.
5.At the end of the day, many conventioneers have their arms full with bags and boxes full of literature. And prizes.]
And the most important reason of all:
There are plenty of convention centers in other cities where long walks aren't required. Microsoft may be a monopoly. The Javits Center is not.
I never said to stop bus service. I said a little walk never hurt anybody. I have been to shows in LA, and the nearest parking was 1/2 mile away, in hot weather. Sometimes the walk is faster then the wait.
(I said a little walk never hurt anybody. I have been to shows in LA, and the nearest parking was 1/2 mile away, in hot weather. Sometimes the walk is faster then the wait.)
I walk most of the way into Manhattan, over the Brooklyn Bridge, every change I get.
But today my family and I got back from my parent's 40th Anniversary cruise, and walked the four blocks from the passenger ship terminal to the 50th St and 8th Avenue IND, with five suitcases. We walked because the wait for a cab would have taken hours.
Let me tell you, a little bit of stuff makes a big difference. If they do build a stadium next to Javits, and an underground pedway, the suburbanites can walk from Penn Station to the stadium no problem. But, because a convention might have stuff involved, I'd say you've got to make it a little easier.
[2 blocks to 8th Ave will not kill most people.]
Not kill people? Is that your criterion for service?
I walked that three (not two) blocks to and from Javits the other day because of the stupid buses. A waste of my time, but that's not the issue. The issue is that people have every right to expect decent service. Overcrowded buses do not constitute decent service. That in spite of what you say most of the people on these buses are convention goers or people working at convention booths makes this lack of service even more obscene, because it makes Javits even less competitive with other convention centers than it already is.
[Not kill people? Is that your criterion for service? ]
Right, wasn't NYC to dicourage people to drive their own cars as the street system (parking lot :-)0 is incapable to handle it?!
Arti
[Right, wasn't NYC to dicourage people to drive their own cars as the street system (parking lot :-)0 is incapable to handle it?!]
Yeah, that was a brilliant one, wasn't it!
But as I recall the City was under a lot of pressure from the EPA at the time. They needed a plan that would convince the Feds, while not actually doing anything.
[Lack of development could be tied into lack of transit access. When the city and state built the Javits Center, they must have known that it would be many years before the subway or other mass transit ever came that far west. It seems like an ultra-naive attitude to think that the Center (plus all the hotels etc.) would make a subway extension inevitable.]
I'm not sure whether they had the subway in mind when they built Javits. The thing that gets me though is that it's so easily accessible from Track 21! $1 million or so and they could offer a convenient shuttle.
It is? So why don't the City and the MTA consider an extension from Penn Station to the Javits Center instead of extending the 7 there? And while we're at it, how about continuing the line to the World Trade Center? That might take pressure off the 7th and 8th lines too.
But no, those goddamn bureaucrats just have to go with the more complicated, expensive alternative rather than the simpler, less expensive one?
"MTA. We just love screwing the public!"
The main reason is MONEY, who will pay. Not the Feds with a Republican Congress and screw Liberal Demo NYC, even though Rudy is a Republican, NYC Mayors this century were too Libral for the RightV Wing Main Stream Southern and Western Republican. Most of the people in this country can t stand people from 3 areas. 1-New York City, California and Texans
[Most of the people in this country can t stand people from 3 areas. 1-New York City, California and Texans.]
I've always wondered about that hatred. Jealousy, I guess--there's a strange viciousness to it, and no real reason that I can detect.
Some times it is New Yorker,s Attitude, that they are better thgen, Californians the same. Texans, Biggest loud mouth people around
But is that an actual, expressed attitude, or an assumption that people make? After all, by the time you add in Texas all the three states have in common is size.
The three largest states in Population for now.
And probably for a long time
Population (in millions):
CA:33.1
TX:20.0
NY:18.2
Closest contenders
FL/IL:12.1
PA:11.9
OH:11.2
[It is? So why don't the City and the MTA consider an extension from Penn Station to the Javits Center instead of extending the 7 there? And while we're at it, how about continuing the line to the World Trade Center? That might take pressure off the 7th and 8th lines too.
But no, those goddamn bureaucrats just have to go with the more complicated, expensive alternative rather than the simpler, less expensive one?
"MTA. We just love screwing the public!" ]
Amazing, isn't it? There are at least two ways to go between Penn and Javits. The LIRR yards run right up to 12th Avenue across the street. And the West Side line carries Amtrak trains right past Javits into Penn.
As to a downtown link, a good part of that already exists too--the West Side Freight Line runs from right next to Javits to a few blocks below 14th Street. It's been demolished below 14th, but it could easily be extended along the surface of West Street to the World Trade Center at very little cost, providing direct downtown access for New Jersey Transit, Metro North, the LIRR, Amtrak, and anything else you feel like running. But no, nothing gets done.
[But no, those goddamn bureaucrats just have to go with the more complicated, expensive alternative rather than the simpler, less expensive one?
"MTA. We just love screwing the public!" ]
. . . and funding MORE $TUDIE$ !!
With all of those studies, they might as well change their name to MTU: Metropolitan Transportation University.
Ah, those studies. It's too bad I'm such a lousy businessman. Instead of sitting around coming up with schemes for things that will never be built, I could be earning money coming up with schemes for things that will never be built.
In the park across 11th Av from the Javits Center, at W 35th St, there is what certainly appears to be a closed-up subway entrance. There are also closed entrances on the west side of 11th Av. Someone on this board told me that it was supposed to connect to the new spur carrying Amtrak trains from Penn Station to the line under Riverside Park.
Was there any actual plan for Amtrak or other RR service at that station?
Bob Sklar
[In the park across 11th Av from the Javits Center, at W 35th St, there is what certainly appears to be a closed-up subway entrance. There are also closed entrances on the west side of 11th Av. Someone on this board told me that it was supposed to connect to the new spur carrying Amtrak trains from Penn Station to the line under Riverside Park.
Was there any actual plan for Amtrak or other RR service at that station?]
As far as I know, if there were any plans, they never got beyond the idle-chatter stage. Remember that there had been no passenger service on that line for many years when the Javits Center was built in the middle 1980's. Amtrak didn't begin using it until the early 1990's.
It does apparently go down to the Amtrak line, but I don't know why it was built. There's also a sealed up passage under 11th Avenue to where the bus stops are that may have been intended to provide direct access to the convention center.
AFAIK, it could be used for Penn Station-Javits service right now, this very second, and I sure could have used it today when I was slogging between the 8th Avenue and PC Expo. But hey, what's a billion dollars and a 20 year delay between friends?
Smallest PC Expo in years, BTW. Perhaps if we do nothing for a few years more we'll drive the rest of the exhibitors away . . .
For starters MTA should run M34 on schedule. Many times I've waited it for 30 min or more.
Arti
Service frequencies on the crosstown buses are a joke, and so are the schedules!
(Service frequencies on the crosstown buses are a joke, and so are the schedules! )
Crosstown buses in general are a joke. If there is no grade separation, you might as well walk.
[Crosstown buses in general are a joke. If there is no grade separation, you might as well walk. ]
If traffic laws were to be enforced and few stops removed they could actually be usable.
Arti
True. If they ran enough buses and had stops only every other block, they might at least be marginally serviceable.
I have to go from Javits to a doctors appt on the east side tom'w, and I don't see how I can do it without losing a big chunk of the show. Not only do the xtown buses get stuck in traffic, they're grossly overloaded during show days and the frequency is ridiculous, so I'll presumably have to walk to the 8th Avenue subway or waste money on a cab.
At the very least, the MTA could provide adequate service when shows are on. It's like the City and State do everything they possibly can to drive convention attendants to other cities.
You can tell when a big show is on at Javits. Just stand on 42nd Street and watch the buses go by. Some will be moderately full -- that's the M104 -- or empty -- that's the M42 to 42nd Street Pier. Once in a while a bus will come by that's so crowded that various body parts are hanging out the windows -- that's the M42 to Javits.
[American or the other airlines really don't have to care about mass transportation to the airports. It's cities that like these big ticket projects, the airlines could care less. They know you are going to get to the airport no matter what. Which does make American's position a bit unusual. They are spending big bucks on new terminals however.]
According to at least one article I read, American's concern is with competiton from Newark now that they're talking about extending PATH.
They opposed it because they thought it would raise ticket prices; now they're in favor of it because the competition is doing it.
No comment!
This is not an uncommon corporate (or government) pattern. Consider the automobile industry. They fought airbags for years and now they compete to advertise how great they are and new gimmicks like the side impact air bag. They fought countless pollution regulations and now they market cleaner cars - like it was their idea all along! Its a common pattern.
Right now the Airlines for the past 5 years years have made more money then the previous 30 years combined. Their attitude now is screw the Travel Agents(Cut Commissions) Screw their employees(Who have not gotten raises in years to keep the airlines from Flying, and screw the passengers. Remember last year all the promises they made to SELF POLICE themselves, after Congress threatened to investigate. BS, they have not done anything yet. They are the only industry who DOES NOT GIVE REFUNDS. You buy your ticket, and can t go. You are stuck with it. They used to be non changeable but after many threatened lawsuits, they let you cange it for a penalty up to $100.00 plus fare increases. Your ticket price goes down, sure we will give you a reduction. 1 We will charge you so much, then cancle your reservation and hope we can rebook you for the same fare classification. I know I worked for Airlines for years and now a Travel Agent
Correction to keep the Airlines flying, pay cuts and no pay raises are better then unemployment
True. I sometimes wonder at the myopia of industries that waste effort and PR capital--and hurt the rest of us--fighting regulations that would have little effect on their profitability, or in some cases might even enhance it. As long as a businessman's competitors have to do the same thing, why should he care?
[American is already in the City's good graces. Despite pulling its headquarters and maintenance operations out of the city, it still is on the list of the city's largest employers. No other airline has been
since PanAm went under.]
What about Delta and TWA? Both of them have major operations at Kennedy, and also at LaGuardia in Delta's case.
(What about Delta and TWA? Both of them have major operations at Kennedy, and also at LaGuardia in Delta's case. )
I don't know how many they employ. I do know they do not show up on the list of largest employers.
TWA has always had a hanger at JFK, #12 I think, but it's never been a main base. I think theirs is in Kansas City. Delta's is in Atlanta.
Mr t__:^)
"(3) Mayor Daley's brother is the former Transportation secretary and now runs Al Gore's campaign."
Umm, no. Bill Daley was (until very recently) the COMMERCE Secretary. And the Commerce Department hasn't had a role in regulating or promoting aviation since the Department of Transportation was created back in the 1960s.
[What do people think: would a one sear airtran ride from Manhattan to Kennedy make a big difference?]
Absolutely. If it just goes to Jamaica or uses the subway, no one will take it. We had that experience with the disasterous "Train to the Plane." The PA says that the Airtrain from Jamaica will be 20 minutes faster than the shuttle bus, but that makes no sense at all--20 minutes or not, the Train to the Plane was faster than taking a cab, and the trains were empty.
It's amazing how often this subject comes up. In fact, I commented in a similar thread today.
It would be fairly easy to connect not just JFK and LGA, but EWR as well. Three airports connect by frequent, high speed terminal to terminal service. An "extension of the airports" at Penn Station, already the world's most heavily used transportation complex, with satellite faciliites in Jamaica, Atlantic Avenue, Queens Plaza, Newark, Grand Central Terminal, the Lower Manhattan Business District, and the Javits Center, all offering a quick one seat ride to the region's three airports, along with subway and PATH access for employees.
Because most of the required infrasturcture is either in place or
coming on line, we're in a wonderful position to add a real asset to
the region at relatively low cost. But the PA is running the Airtrain
only to Jamaica, where few people will use it. They're charging $5 for
a transfer from the subway, which is ridiculous. NIMBY's won't allow the construction of the subway extension to LGA or use of the Rockaway Branch. If it gets built, the FRA probably won't allow Airtrain to run on both the LIRR and subway tracks. The LIRR doesn't want to make room for more trains at Penn. The MTA is wasting billions and years of construction on a tunnel and annex at GCT, when the existing infrastructure could handle the load. The PA won't allow the subway to go to the terminals at LGA, apparently because New Jersey doesn't want the competition for EWR. Newark built a monorail system which is incompatible with the region's transportation network. The PA is extending PATH to EWR, but doesn't want to run more trains on the Northeast corridor.
It seems that our wonderful asset is being squandered by a bunch of
piddling, shortsighted bureaucrats and politicians.
How about a high-speed ferry service? I've never seen that option discussed here, but I did read about it in a newsletter I picked up at the NY Waterway terminal at the WFC. It talked about a possible high-speed ferry that would connect the airports, among other things (I can't remember all the details). That seems like an option that could be more pleasant than a train (if you're a water person and enjoy a nice sea breeze) or could be more frightening than a train (if you have a fear of water) or possible unpractical (too time consuming, affected by rain, wind, etc.)
(How about a high-speed ferry service?)
There are two problems with a ferry. On the JFK end, you'd have to take another mode to get to a ferry terminal, although I suppose the Airtrain could have been designed to do that. On the Manhattan end, you'd probably have to travel crosstown on another mode to get to your destination, unless it is in Lower Manhattan. There was a discussion of extending the Times Square shuttle to a ferry terminal at the E river for that purpose.
The Marine Air Terminal works better for ferrry service.
[How about a high-speed ferry service? I've never seen that option discussed here, but I did read about it in a newsletter I picked up at the NY Waterway terminal at the WFC. It talked about a possible high-speed ferry that would connect the airports, among other things (I can't remember all the details). That seems like an option that could be more pleasant than a train (if you're a water person and enjoy a nice sea breeze) or could be more frightening than a train (if you have a fear of water) or possible unpractical (too time consuming, affected by rain, wind, etc.)]
There is a ferry service from LGA, but in general ferries don't go to the right places or to the terminal. I suppose you could design some kind of roll on-roll off arrangement, but by the time you've done that, why not use the existing rails?
I do think we could do more with ferries in general, though. Seems to me we should have real ferry ports on E 42nd And E 34th and connect them by rail to GCT and Penn.
Anybody into exploring abandoned subway stations?
Sure, if you want to get hit by a train or arrested.
You will find that the advice here is not to do this at all.
You'll jeopardize legal access to the sites for everyone.
-Dave
[re exploring abandoned stations]
[Sure, if you want to get hit by a train or arrested.
You will find that the advice here is not to do this at all.
You'll jeopardize legal access to the sites for everyone.]
I'd also mention that you can get quick glimpses of all but one of the abandoned stations from passing trains. And realistically speaking, a quick glimpse is plenty. The one station not currently visible from any train, and alas by far the most interesting one, is the old City Hall station. Yet I'd say it's a safe assumption that at some point it'll reopen to public view, even if that has to wait until there's a new mayor.
Well, if you find a car with no p/a you have an excuse to sit on a downtown #6 after Brooklyn Br. and go around the loop (claim: I didn't know it was the last stop!) Try feigning sleep, too. Be wary of a few things:
1. There is a layup track that some morning rush 6 trains use, don't try this before 11:00 AM.
2. 'This train is going to a storage yard' means get off!!
3. 'This train is going back uptown' means rest easy, you're going around the loop.
4. 'The train is not in service' 'No Passengers' 'Last Stop' 'All off' , OK to stay on, unless accompanied by #2.
5. Stay in one of the last 3 cars!
6. C/R flicks lights on and off, O.K.
7. C/R turns lights off, not O.K. This is done on the last Bowling Green 5 because it sits in the loop for about 25 minutes.
Same rules for trying S. Ferry inner loop, when 5 trains turn at Bowling Green. 4 trains that terminate at Bowling Green go OOS.
Currently, 2 other abandoned areas, the lower level City Hall BMT station and the 9th Ave lower level (Culver line) are also not visable from passing trains.
As well as 42st. Lower Level, but a closer look can be obtained on this weekends' G.O., since the E will be going direct to the express track after 50st, it will have to venture about 50' closer to the lover level than it currently does. The signal that is normally Red-Red will finally be able to use its other bulbs.
[Currently, 2 other abandoned areas, the lower level City Hall BMT station and the 9th Ave lower level (Culver line) are also not visable from passing trains.]
The lower level of the City Hall BMT station was never in revenue use, so I didn't count it. As far as 9th Avenue is concerned, I was thinking only in terms of fully abandoned stations, not parts of stations.
Besides, I doubt if there's much to see at either one.
Well, I've been in both places, so I'll have to disagree with you on one count - the lower level of BMT City Hall station actually is kind of neat. A number of signs are still in place, and you can see where the main line ramps down to the BMT level south of the station (the line the lower level was originally intended to serve).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
today in part 6 of Jersey Mike Asks Pointless Opinion Questions About the Subway I pose to all of you: Do you think that the motorman should be locked away from the train in a clousterphobic booth or drive the train from a lightly paritioned area within the passenger compartment. Examples of this include PATCO trains, LRV's and Busses. Advantages include faster responce time for passenger problems and questions and passengers get a better feeling because they can see the human that's driving the train. inversely the motorman would be less inclined to smoke or sleep.
Because PATCO has the operator in plain view of the passengers I have noted some really interesting ones. there is this not so old guy who has short white hair and tatoos all over his arms. He usually drives the train w/ the window open and his arm sticking out. Furthermore he always looks like he's having fun doing his job. I have seen him on 3 non-consecqutive occasions. Do any of youse guys have a favorite motorman?
As a TO, I prefer my little claustrophobic cab - it keeps the psychos who like to spit and throw things away from me.
Fave Motorman:
Harry Nugent, IRT 1/9 Line.
Harry was a Conductor. Try again.
I'd much rather have no interior light reflecting off the motorman's window, impeding his view. With that said, I enjoy when the motormen leave the cab door ajar.
I think some take a great deal of pride in their work and like to share it. My job is kind of similar in that if you're doing your job, nobody should notice, but if you're not then everybody screams bloody murder. So I too "leave the door open" when I can to let people see in.
If people can see the motormen doing their jobs, then they will have more respect for the trade, and be more inclined to support them at times when TA management is bashing their operators.
From what I have heard from a Flagman on the Broadway Junction Station, he says that after the L line is automated, All other Subway Trains will be automated. Is this because of the R143's? If so, this could be the 1st Subway car I actually hate. I don't mean to be judgemental, but I say if all the Trains are automatic, I feel that people like myself can have no lifelong dreams. Ever since I knew and Understood what a Train was at the age of 12, I wanted to be a Motorman. However, this Flagman is just a Flagman. Please someone tell me he is wrong! As a matter of fact, the only hope is that a T.S.S. Says that most likely only short lines like the L and shuttles will be automated. But I dunno if he will be correct or not. I really like Trains and how they are operated. I hope that the TA never reaches this point.
I'm not a t/o, but I do know only the L will be automated, too expensive / complicated to do anything else, its the only completely isolated line, and anyway it is only supposed to be really large permanant test. Everything up to R-68 would have to be scrapped before all lines are automated, since every single train along the track route would require automation. The only other lines that could be automated easily are the Franklin and 42st S (which already tried automation), and the 7. The G touches the F, so both would have to be automated, the F touches the B,D,Q,A,C,E,&R, which connect with the N & M, which connects with the entire Eastern Division, all of which is the entire B division, which would have to be automated simultaneously. For the A division, the 1/9 connect with the 2/3, which connect with the 4/5, which connect with the 6, the chain reaction of automation is clear. Its all or few.
BTW, this is for automation to work as intended: trains, when moving slowly, only a few feet apart, but at higher speeds have larger gaps. This is supposed to enable more TPH. We shall see.
Anyway, there will be a T/O watching the controls just in case something goes wrong.
BTW #2 - I, too, have aspirations to become a motorman.
Even though I am not a Motorman they would never automate the system.
1. It would be too expensive to remove the current signaling system, and tracks for digital tracks (Tracks that send digital signals to the computer in the train like in the TGV)
2. System is too big.
3. Computer Crashes
4. Upgrading the current fleet (changes in the body of the car, and system)
5. Too many cars to upgrade
6. Too many station to upgrade
7. Alot of people would have no job
Plus they would ruin the dreams of too many kids to become motormen. (like me and the millions of kids, and teenagers, and adults around the world)
(Plus they would ruin the dreams of too many kids to become motormen. (like me and the millions of kids, and teenagers, and adults around the world))
What does the TA care about dreams. Many of the railfans who want to be motorman want railfan windows, and you know what they are doing with them !!!
It would be too expensive to remove the current signaling system, and tracks for digital tracks (Tracks that send digital signals to the computer in the train like in the TGV)
They intend to do it anyway for CBTC. After the L pilot program, all signal replacements are to be for CBTC. It will take 22 years (signals have to be replaced every 20 years anyway).
System is too big.
It's obviously not going to be done at once.
Computer Crashes
That would be a useful argument, if only you mentioned what a computer would prevent that the current system does not.
Upgrading the current fleet (changes in the body of the car, and system)
Since it will take almost 30 years, and not starting from today either, the cars not compatible will get to live out a whole life as the rest of the system is CBTC-ized. The R-142s and R-143s are already compatible. So are the R-44 and R-46 even. The R-6x could be upgraded, but the system will not be fully CBTC ready by the time they are removed from service.
Too many cars to upgrade
See above comment
Too many station to upgrade
What do stations have to do with CBTC? Or automation even? Any stopping commands would be an aspect of the signal system.
Alot of people would have no job
Not a valid argument. When was the last time you saw a blacksmith? A real one, not a Colonial Williamsburg one. There are many examples of jobs eliminated over the last few centuries by automation (or primitive versions thereof). The population of the industrialized world affected by this has gone up, why hasn't the unemployment rate gone up. Not to mention that any automation would take so long that any person hired now would be able to retire late, and still not worry about ever being laid off. Just hire less people than are lost for other reasons and you have a shrinking workforce without screwing the existing ranks.
All of this, over the given period of time, will pay for itself in saved labor.
Just curious...
What are the steps that one takes in order to become an MTA train operator?
Thanks,
Dave
There will be a chat at the #metrocard chatroom at 8:45 PM tonight, 6/26/00. You must use the irc.cjb.net server, channel #metrocard by IRC client, or the web address http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard through the web.
Remember, chat is in 10 minutes.
Refer to the message linked above for connection information.
If a TO was on a really good acid trip, he would most likely see something like this:
-Daniel
nyrail.cjb.net News:
2 pics added to Amtrak section
1 added to acela section
3 pics will be added to BMT/IND section this week
SIR North Shore line, PATH, and Metro-North sections are being created and will be up this week.
Heeeeyyyy....like, far out, man!
I can dig it...
:-)
Last week, it was NYC, now Chicago. Unfortunately there is no public transit in Honesdale, PA, my next destanation.
Arrived at Midway on Friday and took the Orange line to State/Lake. Scratchitti (sp?) on the railfan window. Other than that, great run. Please explain why the doors closing announcement is made so long before the doors close. We had lunch and went to the Sears Tower on the 151 bus but got on the Harrison branch instead of the Union Station Branch. When we made it up there, the view was pretty good. Went back to Michigan and Wacker in a cab and took a tour on the river and the lake.
On Saturday, we took a cab to the Science and Industry Museum. Getting back was an adventure. My first time/last time chart said the last northbound 10 was at 5:40, 10 minutes after the closing of the museum. At 5:55, a museum employee came out and told the 20 or 30 tourists there that the last 10 now left at 5:30 and we would all have to take the 6. We all walked up the driveway and across the street to the 6 stop and waited another few minutes. At about 6, the 6 pulled up. It took about 10 minutes to load and there were so many people, there were about 3 passengers standing in front of the standee line. While passengers were boarding the 6, a bus did pull in to the Museum from the direction of Lake Shore Drive. No one knew what route it was or was willing to go check out what it was because they would run the risk of missing the 6 as well. About 2 stops later, the driver of the 6 bus behind us invited the standing passengers onto his bus which he said was empty. I stayed on the original bus and got off at Michigan and Wacker, ate dinner, and went to bed.
On Sunday, we took the 146 to the Field Museum. Then walked to Shedd Aquarium and took the water taxi to Navy Pier. After dinner, we walked back to the hotel.
Today, we took a taxi to State/Lake on the Orange line where I noticed a sign reading "No Liotering, Passengers Only". While waiting for the Midway bound Orange Line, I saw a (ugly) full car add on the exterior of a green line train. Also, platform widening at State/Lake would not be a bad idea.
Questions are are those RTS like buses RTSs and how does the roll sign on the L trains work? Is it like the old roll signs in DC?
Honesdale Pa is the county seat of Wayne County, which is the most northeastern county in Pennsylvania. I took my PA driver's license test there so many, many years ago. If I recall correctly, there is a lot of railroad history in that area, and I think I heard that there is a tourist railroad operating in or near the town. It may not be as bad a visit as you think! :-)
I am aware of the fact it is where the first American Railroad was run but there is currently no public transport. All transport done in that area is on the school buses my camp gets from the school district.
And what a horrible form of transport it is!
Oy, why didn't you use the IC (Metra Electric) to get the museum? I gather you were with non railfans so the Red Line/55 Bus was probably out of the question (in addition to taking a bit longer).
The RTS looking buses are RTS's but RTS 08's that wee invented for Chicago. Front door lifts, rear windows, opening transon windows, no AC ( I think added later, roof mounted )
The RTS buses are OK. The Flex buses are not doing as well.
The low floor Flyers are doing well but the next new bus order is for Low Floor Nova's
I think they have some of those RTS busses in Long Beach, California, too. I think Novabus (who now makes the RTS busses) wanted to eliminate the "swing-out" door, just as Neoplan did.
I was without railfans so it would have been hard on them.
I have an additional question which I didn't post last night. What is the side platform at Midway used for?
Re. the side platform at Midway.
The trains can theoretically arrive and depart at Midway from either platform at any time, and there are overhead electric signs indicating which train on which platform is the next one out. IIRC, the side platform is mainly used during rush hour and other high-traffic periods, while trains are routed solely to the main platform the rest of the time.
Also, they plan to eventually extend the Orange line to Ford City, about two miles due south of Midway station. Then, with Midway as a through station for some trains and a terminus for others, it would need both platforms.
They plan to eventually extend the Orange line to Ford City, about two miles due south of Midway station.
Any timetable on this?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
how does the roll sign on the L trains work?
The roll signs on the entire train are controlled remotely by the TO.
It's fun to watch the signs changing on Brown and Purple line trains approaching the Loop.
-- Ed Sachs
I am Presently working on a Bahn layout for Manhattan Bridge changes.
The changes that i made r
B-145-wtc
D-205-Rockaway Park
J/Z-JamacaC.-CI,via west end, Z local on 4th ave,J Express
M-57th,6th-Metropolitan(6ave EXP)
SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line use cameras and one person train operation. How many draging accidents occur? It seems that the T/O sits in the cab, look at a monitor and close the doors. The different camera images causes the images to scroll. How many people have been in "redbird" accidents?
London Underground is quite similar to SEPTA's Market - Frankford line, in that all of the Underground's lines are OPO now that the last of the 1959 stock trains which required guards were withdrawn from service in January.
The Underground train operators benefit from closed circuit TV images presented on a number of monitors located at the end of the platforms in stations, where they are in front and to the side of the driver's cab. Newer trains seem to have them built in, on the driver's console in the cab. People still get caught in the doors while they are closing, but I don't know of any recent incidents where people have been dragged, barring a few involving the now retired 1959 stock, during their last few months of service. I don't know how many people have been caught in Redbird accidents, but those trains seem to be doing a good job of continuing what the 1959 tube trains started...
-Robert King
None that I know of. An simple escalator incident made such big headlines here a while ago, that I imagine a dragging incident would be really huge news here.
The M4s have relatively sophisticated doors. Like the R142s, each door panel operates independently. They are worm-drive, so they cannot be forced open, except the inch or two that an extra spring seems to afford. Each door panel has a circuit which keeps a yellow light flashing inside next to it until it is fully closed. This circuit is also connected to the (very bright LED) red lights on the side, and the computer in the cab.
The doors are sensitive enough that, when the M4s first started running, merely leaning against a door while the train was in motion could stop the train. They have since made them less sensitive, I believe, but it is still common to have the doors open and close several times before the train leaves the station, due to the sensitive door-safety systems. This gets quite annoying with the over-active announcements ("Doors Closing. Doors Opening. Please Stand Clear of the Doors. Doors Closing. Doors Opening. Please Stand Clear...")
Anyone been to Philly? Notice the cab and dash lighting on the M4s?
They are quite cool. They use 4 or 5 small red bulbs to light the dash in a slight angle. They are located on the left side of the cab and can easily be seen on a oncomming train.
Yes, I have noticed the red lights - I imagine they are very effective. It certainly makes a lot of sense. The cabs also have mirrored mylar windowshades on all three windows, a fully adjustable high-back seat, and a cup holder.
I think it's great to see the same sort of thought put into subway cabs as has been applied to automobiles for decades. As a passenger, I feel better knowing the TO has full control over his/her environment, and that environment is a user-friendly one.
How old are redbirds when did they start painting them red and for what reasons.
isn't this like the 3rd time there is a thread
"redbirds" by marty?? how about READING the
site for a change, Einstein? All the information
is there.. just give the mouse a run or two...
Dave Pirmann (and staff) didn't do all this
hard work for nothin.. read around.
Yeah Moron get with the program.
We all know Borg and Marty and the same person.... Lets not get to moronic here...
-Harry
They can't be, unless they (or he) has figured how to be in two places at once (which could be a great time saver). Borg (resistance is futile) is in Canada (aka Great White North) and marty is somewhere in the USA. They seem like the same person since they generally ask dumb questions about stuff that's elsewhere on this great site.
A simple solution: if you ignore them, they will go away. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Certain posters don't seem to go away, they keep coming back for more BS. Time for the infamous killfile, eh?
-Stef
They are the same person, it's been admitted
marty: x2-130.generation.net*
borg: ip199.montreal24.dialup.canada.psi.net
*Registrant:
Generation.NET (GENERATION2-DOM)
2020, rue Universite bureau 1620
Montreal, QC H3A 2A5
CA
Even if they weren't the same person, they're both from Montreal or it's environs, and it proves marty is not from the United States.
If they are the same person, then how come the IP addresses on the two posts are different?
Marty: 205.205.197.83
Borg: 154.5.103.199
However, both IPs are in Canada but different providers.
Unless he's got two computers, each with it's own phone line.
Dan;
What's unusual about having two providers. I have one computer, one telephone line and three internet providers.
And while I usually post from home, I have been known to post from the office laptop, dialed in through the office network, when I'm on the road. Of course, I still use the same handle and post my home email address.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He posted once that borg is is computer at work, and marty is from his home.
Well thanks for bringing this to my attention since I have essentially two rules for SubTalk accounts.
1. One per person
2. Must supply real name
There's no reason you need a different handle for work or from home. Also, I have just locked out many passwords of several people who decided they didn't need to give me their real name. So if you thought the simple rules didn't apply to you when you registered and now you find that all of a sudden you can't post, drop me an email with your handle and real name and we'll take care of things.
-Dave
I dont understand why a person cannot have 2 handles, it does not make sense to me, how can it hurt
Well, mainly because I feel that multiple handles allows people to say things they wouldn't ordinarily say if they knew they had to be accountable for their words. If you need multiple handles you are not willing to stand by your own words.
Secondly, and more selfishly I guess, it's my site, my dollar, and my rule.
-Dave
YOU GO DAVE! This is your s#!t, you do what you want! :) LOL!
Trevor Logan
Flxible Metro B #3511
Disable the accounts of people who say things that are offensive.
And maybe for those who you know have multiple handles for that purpose or for what you mentioned.
It doesn't prove anything of the sort -- it's not difficult at all to connect to a server in some other part of the world. When I'm in NYC, my email and newsgroup posts all come from the same uiuc.edu domain they come from when I'm here in Champaign.
It's unlikely that someone from outside of Montreal would use a Montreal PSINet node.
With Generation.NET it's more possible, but his admission is the rock solid evidence here. This is just proof after that admission has been removed from the archives.
He is from Montreal though. So it does corroborate that.
And he is NOT, he is Canadian, and a very well-spoken individual, may I add, his quizzical posts nonwithstanding.
wayne
He is not what, an American? I already said that.
You did, eh? :-)
Wow, I feel like the "John Rocker" of subtalk! I'm from Montreal and still new with this computer thing. Forgive me for some of the redundant posts.
Wayne; thank you.
And how many handles did you have?
I never had more than one handle simultaneously.
Over a period of the 3 years this board has been around, I've had 5 handles.
R26-28 1957?
R29 1960?
r33-36 1963-4
If you've ever read Stan Fischler's book - The Subway, A Trip Through Time on New York's Rapid Transit, you see on the back of the book, what would've been had all plans gone through for extensions. These will never happen, but I thought I'd still extend the Flushing IRT to Bayside & Hillside Ave IND to Little Neck Pkwy.
The 7 line
----------
Main Street - Flushing, Roosevelt Av
Parsons Blvd, Northern Blvd
162 Street, Northern Blvd
Utopia Pkwy, Northern Blvd
Bell Blvd - Bayside, Nothern Blvd
The F line (G on late nights)
----------
179 Street, Hillside Av
188 Street, Hillside Av
196 Street, Hillside Av
Francis Lewis Blvd, Hillside Av
214-Vanderveer Streets, Hillside Av
Springfield Blvd, Hillside Av
Winchester Blvd (Creedmore), Hillside Av
Little Neck Pkwy, Hillside Av
Reminds me that I'm doing a few LIRT (Long Island Rapid Transit) extensions on BAHN that I will upload to the BAHN files directory soon.
Now keep going and capture the Hempstead Branch of the LIRR and go to Hempstead . It gets better. Having fed the hunger for steel and ties, push further and re-connect to the West Hempstead Branch and complete the loop back towards Jamaica and Parsons center. So now have the Flashing "F" run Clockwise around this loop and the Elegant "E" run counter clockwise. A terminal of sorts can be developed at Greater Hempstead with multiple platforms for short duration connections and layups.
Watch out Rockaway loop, your food for a lot of thought.
Any thinkers out there?
avid
The subway can't go that far. It would be too slow. That's why the current system exists.
Sublocal=Bus
Local=Local
Express=Express
Superexpress=Commuter Rail
With a hungry eye this wolf looks towards the Flushing line and thinks , "Yes it should be fattened!" The fly under/over must be forced and the Noble "N" should be given dominion over this overlooked leg. The # 7 can service the provincial areas of Astoria and its vasal neighbors.
The Empire Grows!
avid
Since arriving at Taipei for vacation, I ride Taipei's subway system (aka MRT system) every weekday. I am very impressed with this subway system. All I can say is that it has the level of Washington DC's Metrorail.
There are four lines in the Taipei Subway system.
(1) Green line between Tamshui and Hsintien
(2) Yellow line between Peitou and Nanshihchiao
(3) Blue line between Taipei City Hall and Longshan Temple
(4) Brown line between Taipei City Zoo and Chungshan Junior High School (the official English name is Chungshan Middle School).
All lines are high-capacity subway lines except Brown line, which is a middle-capacity subway line. You will see the Red line stations between Tamshui and Chiang Kai-Shiek Memorial Hall. Red line is for future use. The sevice is between 6AM to 11:30PM everyday. The average frequency is 5 to 10 minutes. Like DC Metrorail, Taipei Subway prohibits eating, smoking, and littering; therefore, it is very clean.
Like DC Metrorail, Taipei Subway uses farecards to collect fares. The official word of farecard is called stored-value ticket. The fare depends on your travel distance, which is from 0.67 to 3.17 US dollars. If you purchase a 1000 NT-dollar farecard, you will automatically have a 20% discount. (1 US dollar = 30.76 NT dollars)
Similar to NYC Metrocard, if you transfer from subway to bus within 2 hours, you will have a free bus ride. However, the subway farecard is different from the bus farecard. Before you leave the subway station, be sure to put your bus farecard to the transfer machine to validate your free bus ride.
As a three-year-old system, I give the Taipei Subway system very high marks. As for subway buffs, they will be very disappointed that except the Brown line, there is no railfan windows.
Chaohwa
How fast do the trains go?
The trains can run as fast as 56 mph (90 km/hr).
Chaohwa
06/27/2000
[As for subway buffs, they will be very disappointed that except the Brown line, there is no railfan windows.]
I guess that rules out Salaam going to Taipei to videograph the system !
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right. Passengers cannot even see the cab from the inside. I bet Salaam will hate this system very much because he doesn't think about videotaping from the cab!
Chaohwa
[[As for subway buffs, they will be very disappointed that except the Brown line, there is no railfan windows.]
[I guess that rules out Salaam going to Taipei to videograph the system !]
Lucky for Taipei!
Like DC Metrorail, Taipei Subway uses farecards to collect fares. The official word of farecard is
called stored-value ticket. The fare depends on your travel distance, which is from 0.67 to 3.17 US
dollars. If you purchase a 1000 NT-dollar farecard, you will automatically have a 20% discount. (1
US dollar = 30.76 NT dollars)
I have an error. The fare is ranged from 20 NT dollars to 65 NT dollars. In US currencies, it is from 0.67 dollars to 2.11 dollars.
Chaohwa
Sounds a lot like Singapore's MRT.
--Mark
Even the high-capacity-line cars are similar to Singapore's.
Chaohwa
I just arrived yesterday afternoon here in New York from San Francisco and I have a couple of questions. First of all I rode the 9 train from Times Square to South Ferry last night and had a delightful round trip on the "American Legion". The "Kennedy Class" ferryboats should never be retired. Here's my first question, how long has it been that you can only exit and access the first five cars of a train at the South Ferry loop? I lived in Parkchester as a tot and I don't remember that from my numerous trips to South Ferry.
My second question is, is the large building being constructed in the middle of the JFK Parking Areas the new American Airlines terminal? I know that they have very ambitious plans, but their regular terminal area looks no different than when I was here last year.
I got a good look at the Airtain construction along the Van Wyck, it's a shame that Robert Moees and company didn't allow something like that 40 years ago. What a difference it could have made!
George
South Ferry station has always been that length. Here is some history from elsewhere on this sight.
SOUTH FERRY LOOP
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, I've seen this too many times, from too many people (please don't take this personally, Andee!) to let it go.
Sight is something you have. It's one of those odd words that is a noun, a verb, and an adjective. You have a sight on a rifle. He's a sight for sore eyes, etc. But it's not a location. When refering to a place to go, it's a site, as in a website.
End of nitpick rant.
-Hank
oops...
Don't forget to cite Hank's name when we refer to his comment. :-)
The guy said he was a newbie in town ... I don't see anything a matter with the reply, i.e. it was a thumb nail & pointed to where more detail exists. I for one am still learning here and have gotten rather good at identifing when a few of us our throwing mud vs. having a thoughtful debate or just kidding around (the latter two I don't mind).
Mr t__:^)
I like my loop.
1SF9
It is a interesting station and every subway buff should go there at least once. Plus if you have Peter Dougheaty's track maps it becomes even more interesting.
Mr t__:^)
It took 18 years, but a Bay Ridge Pol seems to have noticed that N and R service stinks. He doesn't connect it to the Manhattan Bridge problem, though he should. The article is in the Daily News. I don't know how to do links, but it's at www.mostnewyork.com.
Heres the link, to the News site/story.
18 years and whadya get?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee: Those guys in the TA seem to have an excuse for everything, don't they? We call it passing the buck. My solution would be to send the Sea Beach back over the Manhattan Bridge, and tunnel either the B or D in order to provide quicker service to Bay Ridge. It might be an immediate solution, that is, temporary. Sooner or later they will have to decide on a new tunnel or to really rebuild the weak links of the Manny B. A five year program taking over 20 years? Ridiculous.
The B or D can t tunnel because the tunnel goes to Broadway the B and D go 6th Ave, The Q can run up Broadway. Fred you live in thye past for the N to be a thru Express. he express on Broadway only saves 6 minutes top from Canal to 57th. The Manny B well who the hell knows It is not the TA that keeps the trains off the bridge but the DofT.
Unfortunately, the TA is telling the truth on this. The State DOT owns the bridge, the City DOT maintains the bridge (poorly) and the TA is just a tenant. If the DOT says 'Bridge bad, no choo-choo', then off they go.
-Hank
Fred, just to give credit where credit is due, Larry Littlefield is the originator of this post. I just put in the link so all could read it easier.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>"There is no evidence that there is a need to put more trains on that line," Transit Authority spokesman Al O'Leary said last week. "Everyone [in the city] complains that the trains are crowded and slow. You cannot go by what passengers say." <<
'You cannot go by what passengers say".
I give Al O'Leary credit for not giving us the usual pablum. He comes right out and says it. The MTA disregards complaints by passengers. After all, the MTA is there to make money, not move people from place to place.
At least the MTA's arrogant stewards now have a voice.
www.forgotten-ny.com, formerly of Bay Ridge but unlikely to return till they get their s@#$ together
O'Leary might as well have said "MTA. We don't give two flying f---s what the passengers think. They don't have a choice. Hah!" And even though the MTA is supposed to make money, it can't even seem to do that!
Any monopoly will rip you off, private, political, labor, public, or non-profit. Those on the left often forget about the last three.
And those on the right the first!
The MTA is not there to make money, it's there to do the best it can with the money it is given. Unfortunately, the state, city, and feds have been pretty consistant in cutting the funding, which means they have to do more with less. Remember the 'surplus' discussion? It's not a real surplus, just a smaller than expected loss.
-Hank
Yes 17 billion dollars just wont buy what it used to. I feel so sorry for the poor MTA who dont have enough money to steal
The MTA could go to OPTO. They could go to unattended stations. They could stop subsidizing pork barrel spending on the commuter RR's at the expense of the subways, buses, and for that matter the commuters.
And they don't have to waste billions on unneeded projects that never seem to get finished. The politicians decided to built the LIRR-GCT link at the behest of the MTA. Did the MTA really have to propose a completely unnecessary tunnel and annex as part of the deal? And how can it possibly cost a billion dollars to extend the #7 tunnel a few blocks?
(And how can it possibly cost a billion dollars to extend the #7 tunnel a few blocks?)
Just for a clarification, I saw the NYC Olympic Authority's plan for a #7 extention to LaGuardia. Rather than due west into the Amtrack cut and then south, they want to extend the Flushing Line UNDER THE 8th AVENUE LINE, build a station at Penn Station (also under the 8th Avenue Line), then put in a second turn to the West before ending near the waterfront.
Building under a rail line without disrupting it must be REAL expensive. They want to do it to have a direct ride from Penn Station to Grand Central Station without a change of train.
Not sure I agree with that. I'd rather spend the money to connect MetroNorth to Penn, thus (with the LIRR to GCT) providing most folks with a choice of stations.
With Amtrak scheduled to move west into the Post Office building, it would be a lot easier to extend the 7 west along 41st St. to Ninth Ave. (deep enough to stay under the Port Authority bus ramp) and then turn it south to 34th Street. It wouldn't be as convienent for LIRR riders, but you would still have Penn Station access without having to shore up the A/C/E tracks during construction. It would also allow for a new Port Authority subway stop, at 40th Street and Ninth Ave., as well as serving Penn Station and the Javits Center/proposed new stadium over on 11th Ave.
Not sure I buy the easier part of your suggestion, but the concept certainly has merit. If the bus terminal had additional subway service that could put additional passengers underground and off the streets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[With Amtrak scheduled to move west into the Post Office building, it would be a lot easier to extend the 7 west along 41st St. to Ninth Ave. (deep enough to stay under the Port Authority bus ramp) and then turn it south to 34th Street. It wouldn't be as convienent for LIRR riders, but you would still have Penn Station access without having to shore up the A/C/E tracks during construction. It would also allow for a new Port Authority subway stop, at 40th Street and Ninth Ave., as well as serving Penn Station and the Javits Center/proposed new stadium over on 11th Ave.]
Or just turn the trains into the 8th Avenue line! The A tracks are used at only half capacity, and there's already a flying junction from the end of the #7 tunnel to the 8th Ave. Surely Javits and Penn could get by with 4 minute service instead of 2?
But...how would you run IRT-sized cars on the 8th Avenue Tracks? Who wants to have a giant gap at the platforms? Also..There is a myth that has circulated here that all Dual Contracts tunnels can handle B-Division cars, which isn't true; The Steinway tunnels can't be retrofitted, for one. This would rule out using B-Divsion cars on the Flushing line.
The Steinway Tunnels predate the Dual Contracts.
Run the 7 down 8th Avenue until just before 34th Street -- then turn west and stop at a dedicated platform.
Or run the 7 outside the local tracks at 34th, with an across-the-platform transfer to the local. Then turn west at 30th and run to Javits.
I know a very easy and cheap way to get the #7 line to 34th Street and Penn Station. Much cheaper and easier than turning it onto the 8th Av line. Just put a connecting track with switches to the Port Washington Line at the Willets Point yard!!!!
I know, I'm being a wise guy!!!
Or do it just before Hunter's Point, then you could have the LIRR, NJT, AmTrak & #7 all waiting for a turn on the tunnels to Penn.
Mr t__:^)
"Also..There is a myth that has circulated here that all Dual Contracts tunnels can handle B-Division cars, which isn't true"
You are correct if myth means a true story and true means false.
The Steinway tunnel predates the IRT! It just was stopped because of a construction accident and not completed until 1908.
The rest of the 7 line is wide enough.
The train need only share tracks, they would switch off before stops.
OR they can share platforms if you'll get involved sort of like at South Ferry, although more advanced.
Are the 7 tunnels in Manhattan B div width? I know the Queens side is, but I've always assumed the Manhattan side was A div because of the Steinway tunnels.
There is no reason why it should be B division width west of Grand Central. Grand Central is New York and Queens County era construction (pre-1908). The line under 41st Street was built in 1926-27.
Forget the #7 line!
Extend the "L" line from 14th streetand 8th avenue to the westside, linkup with the unused NYC freight line.Head uptown to The Javits Center and have the possibility of extending north all the way to the Bronx . If the second Ave line can never get beyond "studies" at least use a facility where most of the structure is complete and needs track,power, stations and signal equipement.
avis
That's an interesting proposal, though it doesn't do anything for lower manhattan commuter access. Traffic along that line is light, and I wonder if some kind of subway-stop spaced bus service wouldn't do as well.
Another possibility--connect PATH, which is already FRA. You could go PATH-West Side Freight Line-Heliport/Ferries/Javits-Penn-PABT-rest of the #7. That would kill any number of birds with one stone.
Could they connect PATH to the LIRR tracks and run it to Javits?
Arti
IIRC PATH is blocked from comming North ... physically that is.
Mr t__:^)
[But...how would you run IRT-sized cars on the 8th Avenue Tracks? Who wants to have a giant gap at the platforms? Also..There is a myth that has circulated here that all Dual Contracts tunnels can handle B-Division cars, which isn't true; The Steinway tunnels can't be retrofitted, for one. This would rule out using B-Divsion cars on the Flushing line.]
Well, the plans call for the #7 to continue on to Javits, so there's no reason it would have to use the 8th Avenue stops at all. Since it's on the same level, it could enter at the lower level of the 8th Avenue station and stop there (great stop for the PABT). Then it would continue up the ramp and switch onto the A. At Penn, it would turn right and head down the existing tracks and stop at Track 21.
But if you did want to share platforms, you could use gap fillers on the car or platform, or better, use a second pair of tracks with a switch to pull the train closer.
BTW, I don't think anyone here ever said the Flushing line was B division outside of Queens. I'd be curious to know though if there's anything else not part of the original IRT Z that isn't B division width.
Well, you could redirect them into the lower level at 42nd st. In theory, you could build a spur that would branch off before that, and enter that lower level, which could be expanded to accomodate the traffic, and then curve onto ninth avenue
[Well, you could redirect them into the lower level at 42nd st.]
That is an idea that I had at one time, but our friend Todd G. did some measurements & feels that the #7 is actually below the 8th Ave lower level tracks. Maybe there's room (between 7th & 8th) to come up to meet it, then turn South (under the 8th Ave) until 34th, then West to the Javits Centre.
I don't like the #7 ext. designed for Penn to Grand Central use because it's only two tracks a maxed out in capacity already. So maybe it should proceed West to 11th Ave then South to the Javits ... that would incl. a stop at the Port Auth. bus depot.
I also don't favor cross platform transfers, but do favor using the closed/now abandoned 8th Ave lower level because it's only one stair case down.
Mr t__:^)
Across the platform transfers are the best, easiest type of transfer.
The #7 may be one level down, but there's plenty of room for it to come up depending on where you want it to emerge. Since you're dealing with a flying junction & going to the express tracks I don't see any reasonable way it could share the upper level at 42nd Street for a cross platform transfer, so it seems that the best station location would be 8th Avenue N-S under the existing tracks--plenty of staircases, which is the next best thing for a transfer, and it would align nicely with the 8th Avenue end of the PABT too for rapid access.
The #7 may be one level down, but there's plenty of room for it to come up depending on where you want it to emerge. Since you're dealing with a flying junction & going to the express tracks I don't see any reasonable way it could share the upper level at 42nd Street for a cross platform transfer, so it seems that the best station location would be 8th Avenue N-S under the existing tracks--plenty of staircases, which is the next best thing for a transfer, and it would align nicely with the 8th Avenue end of the PABT too for rapid access.
Anyway, it seems to me it would be really easy to put in a grade between between 7th and 8th Avenue, because the tunnel has room on top so no digging would be necessary. Don't know what you'd do about the passage, though. Another consideration--you may want to extend the line all the way down 42nd Street some day, so there has to be some way for it to go straight through without crossing the tracks.
Well, if it is under then perhaps they should curve onto ninth, and provide ninth avenue service for the first time in a few years. As for volume, I always though if they could think of a way, they should have extended the third track to the rest of the line.
[I always though if they could think of a way, they should have extended the third track to the rest of the line.]
Four tracks would be put to very good use on that line, but it ain't going to happen. Three to Grand Central is probally not in the cards either. With the within fare control passageway (between 7th & 8th) the TA may not be motivated to do anything, that's too bad.
Mr t__:^)
The Steinway Tunnel predates the 20th Century
Using the Eighth Ave. line for the 7 would increase the number of switches and/or decrease the number of trains per hour you could run on either the A or the C/E tracks, since the 7 runs enough TPH on its own to just about fill up the Steinway tunnel capacity during rush hour. Better to keep it as it's own dedicated line, like the L.
[Using the Eighth Ave. line for the 7 would increase the number of switches and/or decrease the number of trains per hour you could run on either the A or the C/E tracks, since the 7 runs enough TPH on its own to just about fill up the Steinway tunnel capacity during rush hour. Better to keep it as it's own dedicated line, like the L.]
Since the A has to share tracks in other areas, it doesn't use this area of the line to capacity. Agreed, you couldn't accomodate all #7 trains during rush hour without reducing A service, but given that it would serve only a spur I don't see why half the trains can't continue to reverse at the Seventh Avenue stop. That would still provide a 4 minute headway to Javits and Penn, which is more than sufficient.
Assuming the A was given priority, the switches would of course add a delay to the #7, but only to the trains heading on to Javits, which would have plenty of tunnel to back up in. Both the average and maximum delays would be trivial, a matter of seconds.
Would a whole new tunnel be better? Sure. But is a few seconds' difference worth several hundred million dollars that could be spent on other system needs? I'd rather see a stop at second avenue, or an extension East on 34th Street, which is virtually impassable by bus.
I think you're right. That would coincidentally allow them to devote two of the four Park Avenue tracks to the LIRR, saving billions on the 63rd Street access project.
Sounds like they've picked the most expensive option possible out of about a zillion, as well as the one that will be least useful.
They must have taken Frank Corrall's attitude of "Screw the $&$%#@# passengers! What the hell did they expect for their lousy $1.50 - a private charter train?"
Did it ever cross anyone's minds that O'Leary is RIGHT?
Everyone thinks *their* subway line is the worst in the city. But perception isn't reality (by definition, every subway line can't be the worst one). Remember the Upper East Side-Upper West Side "who has worse service" thread just a few days ago? Or the interminable "R68s are hippos/Are not!" exchanges in various threads? Or threads where someone asserts that "hardly anybody uses [fill in station name/line number or letter]" and someone else points to boarding/ridership numbers to demonstrate that its usage is actually fairly significant.
People have been complaining about transit since they ran the first horse car up Broadway. Some people on this board point to the time when the system was at its largest, before the elevated lines were torn down without replacement. But passengers complained then. Some people on this board remember when the speed limit and number of trains per hour on a given line was much higher than now. Yet the riders complained back then.
If you had a subway in every avenue and a cross-town line every half-mile in Manhattan with every line leading to a different route in the outer boroughs, each line with four tracks, 24-hour express service, and a train every 60 seconds, people would still complain.
Which isn't to say that there aren't shortcomings in the subway system (Second Avenue line!), just that subjective passenger perceptions of how bad a line is aren't a proper basis for making any sort of decision. O'Leary was exceedingly tactless, but what he said sounds, IMHO, more like "pull the other one" than "screw the passengers".
It didn't cross my mind, not in the least.
I don't happen to think my own subway service is worst--it's rather clearly among the best in the City. And as one of the participants in the East Side/West Side debate, I *never* said that 7th Avenue service was as bad as Lexington Avenue service, or for that matter the E and F and other seriously underserviced lines.
But when I lived along the Lexington Avenue line, boy did I think it sucked eggs!
That's not to say that everybody who complains is right about overall priorities. People do tend to gripe about their own problem. But has it occurred to you, or Mr. Leary, that subway service is pretty inexcusably wretched in much of the City?
Is that anything new? No, of course not. I don't think anyone here would begrudge the MTA credit for some of the improvements that have occurred since the system's darkest days. Air conditioning, quieter cars, more reliable operation. But even in the dismal Mike Quill years, trains were faster and more frequent than they are today. The trains still had shunt coils. Schedules were denser. As to service levels 50 years ago, yes, the trains were overcrowded, but the system handled many more passengers than it does today.
Meamwhile, trains have slowed and slowed and slowed as brakes and shunt coils and the operating procedures have been emasculated. The Manhattan Bridge has been screwed up for longer than some here have been alive. Rush hour travellers are jammed into trains like sardines, when there's plenty of capacity on existing lines to alleviate overcrowding.
It seems to me that people have every right to complain.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
The subways are better than 50 years ago, but so is everything else. Most other things have improved RELATIVE to the subway, especially those portions affected by the big infrastructure problems ie never built Second Avenue, Manny B.
I often use economic data to refute the idea that things were better in the "good old days." But I can't argue with Sea Beach Fred.
Larry: My buddy Brighton Beach Bob says I live too much in the past, and he argues with me all the time. So if you want to disagree with me go at it. My point was, however, that since I do not live in New York anymore, and only visit, my feelings are colored by what I see now as an adult---somewhat jaded by experiences we adults endure, and as a child when I thought the subway was the fastest, greatest, and more enduring thing in our little world.
Actually, I saw Senator Gentile today at a Mass today for a police officer killed in a car accident. I mentioned this to him, and he promised that he is working on this. He believes that it has gone on long enough, and that there's no reason why the bridge can't handle the extra payload. Please feel free to write him, if you have any comments. If we lobby strong enough, maybe this can finally be put to rest.
(Actually, I saw Senator Gentile...he promised that he is working on this. He believes that it has gone on long enough, and that there's no reason why the bridge can't handle the extra payload.)
You give him too much credit. I spoke to Gentile some time ago, and used the Manny B as one (of many) examples of why if the people of Brooklyn had any choice they would vote every one of our "representatives" out.
As long as half the bridge is out, one service's gain is another's loss. One alternative is to swap the Q and N, sticking it to Brighton Riders. This, in fact, was considered in the MTA's East River Crossing study, but it never happened.
If they built the Rutgers/DeKalb connection as the MTA planners proposed, then service would be better with half the bridge out (or with the whole bridge opened). But they didn't. And if the area under the bridge becomes redeveloped (it's happening now), the cost of that potential connection will skyrocket.
We have had several threads about the thinking behind the route of the G. The general impression is that it was designed to bring workers to Brooklyn's factory districts, which were much more important at the time, and to replace the Myrtle/Lexington Els in bringing people to Downtown Brooklyn.
But why is it designed to turn south towards Coney Island at Hoyt? The IND was designed in the 1920s, when service to Coney Island was much more important. After all, the Sea Beach had express tracks that did nothing else. Perhaps the idea was, in fact, to extend the G to Coney Island on weekends, to compete with the BMT specials. With specials and other IND routes, millions of people could have gotten to Coney Island on the IND alone with, at most, one change of train.
Of course, Coney Island went downhill and the subways were unified anyway, some competition to Coney was no longer important. My question is, did the G ever run to Coney Island?
Well, it couldn't until the connection was made between Ditmas Avenue and Church Avenue in 1954. After that the D and F trains were the only ones to run to Coney Island. In fact G service would have been so superfluous that I remember a time 30 years ago, and possibly it is still done sometimes, where F trains really only go to Kings Highway (even if they say Coney Island) and you change for a 1/2 time shuttle the rest of the way to Coney Island.
there are F everymoring that go only as far as Kings Highway
At a time, SOME F trains DID go only as far as Kings Highway. They still do. It may not say it on newer maps, but they do. During rush hours (as late as 1985, when there were now single letter routes), the Coney Island trains would go express between Ditmas Avenue and Kings Highway, while the Kings Highway trains would run local. They still do run to Kings Highway during rush hour, the only difference is that the Coney Island trains would go local, too.
As far as I know, it never went beyond Church Avenue.
The G (or GG) never ran to Coney Island. It never ran past Church Ave. in regular service and, in pre-1940 times, I don't believe it ever ran south of Smith-9th (as today).
Obviously, express and local service was contemplated on the Brooklyn (Coney Island) line of the Independent, but as to the thinking behind its route it was typical urban planner City-think--the GG was really three lines--a Queens local, a BQ Crosstown Line, and a Brooklyn local. Looked good on paper.
Bad market decision? Who bothered with market decisions when you use the taxpayer's credit and the taxpayer's money?
[Bad market decision? Who bothered with market decisions when you use the taxpayer's credit and the taxpayer's money?]
Funny, that seems to apply only when they're spending a fortune on unnecessary boondoggles like the LIRR tunnel or the second avenue "study." When it comes to customer safety or better service, it's amazing how quickly the bureaucrats rush to announce that there isn't enough money! Not enough money to retrofit the redbirds, not enough money to widen the 72nd Street platforms . . .
The original intention may have been to run 'GG' service to Coney Island. Just look at the cumbersome way the current 'G' reverses south of Smith 9th Street. But who knows what operational or political considerations went into route planning back then.
Judging from the original intent of the IND builders, both in Brooklyn and in Queens -- remember, trains on the local tracks between Queens Plaza and Continental Ave. could go no place but to Greenpoint before 1955 -- the idea was probably never to send the GG further south than Church Ave. while having it serve as the local between Church and Bergen, while the F (or before that, the D) handled the express run from Church to Bergen. Back then, planners probably didn't think you would need more than two lines going in from Queens to Manhattan, and that local stop riders in Manhattan and Brooklyn wouldn't mind having to switch to an express to get into the city. Live and learn...
Given that there was some thoughts of having the express tracks of the South Brooklyn IND Line extend to Staten Island as part of the IND Second System, the G to Coney Island may have also been a glimmer in some planners eye.
<<< The original intention may have been to run 'GG' service to Coney Island. Just look at the cumbersome way the current 'G' reverses south of Smith 9th Street. >>>
The turnback for the IND South Brooklyn Line as designed is Church Avenue. The complex of crossovers at 4th Avenue obviously shows that the IND planners wanted the option to turn back trains at Smith-9 Sts., and the IND and its successors have put those tracks to good use ever since.
I'm surprised that NYCT hasn't yet installed a crossover at Hoyt-Schermerhorn to allow nights and weekends OPTO 'G' trains to terminate in downtown Brooklyn instead of running to Smith-9 Sts.
- Jim (RailBus)
I wonder if the IND planners deliberately put the switches west (north) of 4th Avenue rather than east (south) of it to make IND-BMT transfers difficult.
In today's Daily News:
Red Cars Are Blamed in Subway Draggings
I knew this day would come soon enough!
Trevor Logan
Trevor,
The equipment is outdated. Would it be a worthwhile investment to upgrade cars that only have a few years of life left in them? They're going and that's that. I don't always blame the cars for being old, I blame the people who constantly try to stick themselves through the closing doors, just so they don't miss their train. Unfortunately mistakes do happen, and dragging incidents occur as a result. But what can one do? Can't the conductor see if someone's stuck in the doors? Cameras at stations are supposed to help.....
-Stef
Stef
Of course it wouldn't be worth while to retrofit the cars with the elevator-type senors. That would be stupid, with only a year of life left in most of these cars. I do blame the people AND the conductor! I've seen countless conductor's shut door and give the motorman the signal to move with a single glance out of thier windows.
It's gonna be a ongoing problem until these birds fly out to pasture!
Trevor
www.nyctransitfamily.net / www.transitalk.com
AOL Screen Name: Metro D 3700
What elevator type doors? There's no such thing, except on the new cars. Just better sensors.
(The 1,400 cars are the only ones in the Transit Authority fleet not retrofitted with elevator-like sensors and doors that automatically retract upon contact with passengers entering or leaving cars, TA spokesman Al O'Leary said).
Sine when did the doors open automatically? I thought that the conductor still had to press the door open button or else the train would never be able to close the doors during rush hours with everyone trying to push in !!
The TA may be opening Pandora's Box here - how long will it be before opportunistic politicians and community activists begin to clamor to have the Redbirds retired RIGHT NOW! The pressure will then become intense to rush the R142's into service before they are fully tested. Then, when the TA has large numbers of the new cars on the property, they will begin experiencing a shortage of yard space, leading to premature scrapping of operable Redbird cars. Inevitably some major flaw is found in the new fleet and cars must be removed from service, leading to service disruptions and packed trains because the TA suddenly doesn't have enough trains to meet peak hour requirements ...
How many times has that scenario (or some variation thereof) happened in the last 25 years in various U.S. cities?
Well, it's happened in New York more than once.
And there are still going to be a couple of hundred Redbirds that will remain in service even after the R-142s are delivered (unless the MTA has changed its mind and decided to have an A Division car shortage just like the one they have on the B Division). I'm sure a dragging incident sometime next year after the 142s go into service will increase the calls for a retrofit on the older cars (and since they figure to be used mostly in rush hour service where crowding is the worst, the chances of a dragging incident on the `birds is unlikely to go down)
But the A Division has a car shortage, or so the large crowds on the rush-hour 1/9 (which could easily come more often) would indicate.
Redbirds can't run on the 1/9, a little car shuffling might get a few more R-62as on the line but that would require the #7 to keep most of its redbirds (incl. R-33s).
Why can't Redbirds run on the 1/9?! They used to (before they were red).
Other than the temporary restriction bet. 96st and Dyckman st., the gapfillers at South Ferry were realigned in the 80s to fit the R-62as. Redbird doors (and R-142 doors) will not align correctly to the GFs, half the doors would end up where the chains are.
No, they would'nt. THey fit just fine, the gap fillers are much wider than the door openings.
-Hank
So align them back or have Redbirds skip South Ferry. It's an important stop but I'm sure even South Ferry riders will agree that halved headways couldn't hurt even if only every other train stopped at their station. If that absolutely won't do, send all R-62's to the 1/9 and put the Redbirds elsewhere.
In any case, the notion that the A Division has enough cars is just plain wrong.
I'm for redbirds!
1SF9
It was also the 1 line back then. For one thing, they have small bulkhead destination signs which sometimes makes it hard to tell what number is displayed, especially above ground. Also, the roll signs only go up to 7 on the Redbirds. I know, because I saw a redbird scrolling through its signs and after 7 came S, Special, Not in Service, blank white, then back to 1. That was in 1995.
Believe it or not, there's a couple of redbirds that do have the 9 signs. These are GOH R-33s, overhauled, late 1990, early 1991.
Among them, R-33GOH #8822-8823, 9002-9003, 8860-8861, 9058-9059. These are just a few. Some cars actually had their R-63 rollsigns replaced.
-Stef
That's hardly reason to declare that, with all these new cars about to enter the system, there can't be any service improvements on the 1/9. The roll signs could be replaced. The skip-stop service could be abandoned (it was reduced a few years ago, after all). The Redbirds could go to the 3 or 4 or 6, which would send its cars to the 1/9. Half of the 1/9 fleet could remain R-62A; during rush hours the R-62A's would run on the 9 while the Redbirds would run on the 1.
And all it will take is one dragging incident with a 142 for the politicians to complain that the cars are 'defective'
And wait until that wonderous 'bounce-back' sensor delays service for a month....
-Hank
"The 1,400 cars are the only ones in the Transit Authority fleet not retrofitted with elevator-like sensors and doors that automatically retract upon contact with passengers entering or leaving cars, TA spokesman Al O'Leary said."
Calling it 'Official' is a bit misleading. Especially so when it comes from an error-free news organ likr the NY Daily News. How can anyone give credibility to anything they write on this subject when they can't even get the basic premise of the story correct? More appropriate would be a thread titled, " Daily News Editorial Blames Redbirds for Drags".
That kind of makes you wonder if the person writing that
copy actually rides the subway?!
Check out what the MTA has to say about passengers!
Astounding, simply astounding.
B'klyn N Riders Rip Dis-Service
By ROBERTO SANTIAGO
Daily News Staff Writer
Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, residents who want to return to the days when the N train zipped them to midtown Manhattan in a half-hour probably shouldn't hold their breath while they wait.
And the Metropolitan Transportation Authority doesn't offer much hope that they will get more R trains in the near future, either.
"There is no evidence that there is a need to put more trains on that line," Transit Authority spokesman Al O'Leary said last week. "Everyone [in the city] complains that the trains are crowded and slow. You cannot go by what passengers say."
The MTA also said that it will not know until 2004 whether the N train can run express over the Manhattan Bridge as it did 20 years ago.
"The fact is that service was discontinued because the Manhattan Bridge could not handle the N train," said O'Leary. "It will not be until the Department of Transportation completes work on the Manhattan Bridge in 2004 that any determination can be made on restoring service."
None of this sits well with the Alliance of Bay Ridge Block Associations which, since last year, has been petitioning both the MTA and the DOT to beef up service to Bay Ridge residents.
"Sadly, we are not surprised that the MTA is not interested in improving service in Bay Ridge," said frustrated R train rider Brian Honan, co-president of the alliance, whose organization surveyed 900 subway riders. "As [the MTA] says, you cannot go by what the passengers say; they only ride the subways."
State Sen. Vincent Gentile (D-Brooklyn, S.I.), another frustrated R train rider, wasn't surprised by the MTA's reaction either, but he didn't like it a bit.
"What the MTA says is a bunch of malarkey," he said. "There is nothing to consider: They promised the residents of Bay Ridge in 1985 that N train express service would be restored after the Manhattan Bridge was fixed. The MTA is on the 15th year of its five-year plan" to restore service.
Members of the alliance distributed flyers last week at the 86th St. R train station on Fourth Ave.
The flyers, headed with "Late getting to work? Late getting home? Fed up with the R train?" contended that the trip from Bay Ridge to Manhattan is the slowest in New York.
That's a pretty flip response by Al O'Leary. And it's bothersome that the TA is only promising to determine "if" the N train can be restored to the Manhattan Bridge, not when. But I don't understand the R train riders' beef. The R (and the RR before it) has always been a local train. Yeah, those riders lost the N express run from 59th St. all the way into Manhattan. But they can always transfer to a B express at 36th St. or to a D or Q express at DeKalb Av. IMO the 6th Ave. express run is superior to Broadway - better connections at West 4th St. and along 6th Ave. to trains serving upper Manhattan, the Bronx and Queens.
- Jim (RailBus)
Actually, the BMT has better northward connections than the Sixth Avenue IND.
(Yeah, those riders lost the N express run from 59th St. all the
way into Manhattan. But they can always transfer to a B express at 36th St. or to a D or Q express at DeKalb Av.)
With 75 percent of the jobs and most of the other attractions north of Canal St, but less than 60 percent of the trains going there directly, the bridge trains are jammed, while the Lower Manhattan trains are 1/2 empty beyond DeKalb. If both sides of the bridge were empty, there would be supply/demand balance to Midtown/Downtown. The slog through Lower Manhattan takes an extra 10 mintues for those going uptown.
[But they can always transfer to a B express at 36th St. or to a D or Q express at DeKalb Av. ]
R passengers have to squeeze in to the crowded B D Q trains.
At least he's telling the MTA's honest opinion, LOL.
I would think when the Manny B bridge swap takes place in a couple of years they could at least throw N and R riders a bone by making the N the express, swapping the R-40 and R-68 cars on the D and Q and running the 60-foot cars on the southern portion of the D as a Brighton local from Coney Island to Chambers Street (the 60-foot Slant 40s could handle that nasty curve between Fulton and Chambers where the R-68s might not), while the B could take the N train's place through the Montague Street tunnel and the N and Q trains could go back to their normal express runs on the Broadway line. The northern B and D lines could contiue to run from the Concourse to 34th Street as planned, along with the Queensbridge-Grand shuttle service.
Doing that would mean eliminating rush hour M service through Montague Street and I'm sure the West End riders would be slightly ticked off about losing their B express/DeKalb bypass service, but the MTA should at least try to "rotate the pain" a little bit from the Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst riders who've had to put up with this crap for nearly two decades now.
Jay: You will get no argument out of me on that. The Sea Beach should be an express for that very reason, and the fact that the Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge riders have to stand for this nonsense is
ridiculous. You could have both a Sea Beach and a Brighton operating as an express on the Broadway line. But I can just hear Bob, Q, Doug and the rest of my foils steaming over such a suggestion. But it would be fair and equitable, and, more importantly, workable.
I have no Problem with Both the N and Q as a Broadway Express
(I have no Problem with Both the N and Q as a Broadway Express)
Are you gents proposing sticking the D (or should I say the Ds) in the tunnel? The only problem with that is that two of the three bridge services would bypass DeKalb, leaving 1/2 of the D riders trying to squeeze onto the Q. At least N riders via tunnel have the full choice of bridge services.
Of course, D riders could haul themselves up the steps at Atlantic, but that station stinks, and its a lot harder than a cross-platform transfer.
Just think, if they had built that Rutgers/DeKalb connection the Q could run as a 6th Avenue local with the F, allowing the D, B and N as bridge express trains on Broadway. But Nooooo, they couldn't spend the $500 million on Brooklyn, could they?
Actually, my idea was replace Montague N tunnel service with the Bs going to Astoria (basically the same as the current N service now north of 36th St.) run the Ds in place of the M through Montague to Chambers using R-40 Slants, keep the Q on the bridge using the normal R-68s from the D and running the N over the Manny B, skip-stopping DeKalb.
One less service going over the bridge, but the number of trains per hour on the N and Q can be bumped up to make up the difference.
But as I stated the B)BB) was always a 6th Ave-CPW Local for 60 plus years. The D the same as an Exp. It would make sense to run the Q up Broadway, where it really belongs. Either the N or the Q will be the Exp on Bdwy thru Monty St Tunnel and the other via Bridge.
The B hasn't been a Sixth Avenue Local service for over 20 years.
David
Yes, but there always been a B(BB) on 6th Ave since it opened in the 30s, even if it was only Rush Hours terminating at 34th St
No the D would remain the Same, the Q would go back to Broadway Manhatten, but the would become at least a 6 day a week train, Exp in Manhatten, Local in Bklyn to Coney Island, The D would begin at Brighton (reverse rolls as before)
They can't spend a measly (by New York State standards) $500 Million for a useful Rutgers/DeKalb connection but they can spend Billions on an LIRR/Grand Central connection that isn't going to help much and Billions more to prop up an ugly old Manhattan Bridge that's going to fall into the East River anyway. Ah, the NYC and State clowns, I mean, politicians. What will they think of next?
You wonder if the press will pick up the story, and start asking questions. One thing I have realized is that (in an effort to cut costs) the press is practicing press-release journalism. Someone well know issues a press release, you call two or three people who tend to disagree with the person who wrote the press release, but the two points of view together, and you have a story. No press release, no story. Brooklyn: no one cares.
This seems like an issue the Straphangers, or someone, ought to take up. Something like a big public meeting during rush hour at DeKalb might attract some attention. Does DeKalb or Atlantic/Pacific have a large mezzanine (a la the IND) where such a gathering can take place? During the PM rush hour, when no one has to go out of their way, maybe a crowd can be attracted. Maybe we can do something about it.
Larry: If it can be held on August 16 and 17, I know I would be there. That might be the only way to go. It does seem that the outer boroughs, namely Brooklyn and Queens, seem to get the short end of the stick when it comes to the convenience of its citizens on public transportation. Your idea might have some merit if enough of us could be at such a gathering.
[Larry: If it can be held on August 16 and 17, I know I would be there. That might be the only way to go. It does seem that the outer boroughs, namely Brooklyn and Queens, seem to get the short end of the stick when it comes to the convenience of its citizens on public transportation. Your idea might have some merit if enough of us could be at such a gathering.]
Actually, it seems to me that Brooklyn is far and away the best served borough. Don't get me wrong, you have plenty of genuine gripes like everybody else, but Bronxites get stuck on the Lexington Avenue, Queens residents have to crowd on the E and F--and the vast majority of the City's underserved people are on the East Side right now.
How about a campaign to limit use of the south side tracks to rush hours only while the north side are closed? The newspaper quote that the N "may" return indicates that they're going to repeat the 1986-88 scenario: beat the hell out of the downriver rails by running a previously unseen three trains close to eighteen hours a day on them again. Even after two years of repairs, they lasted only three months. Must history repeat itself?
(How about a campaign to limit use of the south side tracks to rush hours only while the north side are closed?)
I don't think the Montigue Tunnel could handle the base service. IF they had built the Rutgers connection, then limiting the use of the bridge to rush hours might have been possible. But 6 D + 6 Q + 6 B + 6 N + 6 R = 30 trains. That maxes out, plus you've got all that switching. Can't see how it could work.
How bad was midday and weekend service in 1995, when the N, R and a Broadway Q used the tunnel while the north side tracks were being
serviced?
Well, the express run along Broadway on the Q was fun.
(How bad was midday and weekend service in 1995, when the N, R and a Broadway Q used the tunnel while the north side tracks were being serviced?)
The thing I remember was the 1986-88 period. At that time, I wasn't as much as a rail fan (although I worked for the TA), so I stuck to my home line (the F) with transfers to the A, C, and IRT. So I didn't experience conditions on Broadway, and never went over the Manhattan Bridge.
What I do remember as the Grand Street Shuttle. It was almost entirely residential, and smelled of human excrement, as did the Broadway-Lafayette station. I hope we don't have that again.
Even though I've gone for awhile, we still haven't solved the Sea Beach (N Train for all you non fans) dilemma. A Brighton and a Sea Beach over the Manny B, the other Brighton a local using the tunnel and the B becoming the train to Astoria would help solve this problem for the Bay Ridge residents. It might even make for faste service. But I still can't fathom why it has teken so long to make those repairs on the bridge.
As I stated before I doubt they will change the B and D Lines, They were since day 1 6th Ave Lines. The Q would be changed, Maybe a Mon-Sat Line like the old BMT Days via Bridge and Bdwy/ or Tunnel, Local All the way and the D back to a Exp on the Brighton when the q is not running
Was in Grand street the other day and it is very busy, all the time. That station needs to be bigger, and not having bridge trains over that when A/B tracks are closed will create a mess for all those passengers who use that station, mostly chinese from the now booming eastern part of Chinatown.
The passengers who use Grand Street will go to Canal Street, which (if even THEY remember) is where they came from when the current service pattern started. Also, Grand Street is getting an additional entrance stairway as we speak.
David
(The passengers who use Grand Street will go to Canal Street, which (if even THEY remember) is where they came from when the current service pattern started.)
Irony: Brooklyn's Chinatown spread from the 8th Avenue station on the N because that was a fast ride to Chinatown. No sooner had it become established than the bridge s--t happened. If half the bridge had gone out a few years earlier, Brooklyn's Chinatown might be in Flatbush.
When I first arrived in New York City, I lived in Astoria, and one of the first things I learned from my friends were the nicknames of the "N" and "R" trains: The "Never" and the "Rarely." Speaking as one of those know-nothing passengers, I can only relate 5 years experience: As anyone who has watched 6 or 7 "7" trains go by to one "N" train at Queensboro Plaza, or about a billion "E" and/or "F" trains go by to one "R" (or "G") train at Queens Plaza (both examples during rush hour) can attest, these nicknames do seem more than a little justified. Though I can guess some of the reasons for this phenomenon, I can't help but feel sympathetic to those "Brooklyn N Riders."
06/28/2000
I don't see why the MTA bashing is necessary here when it's the Department of Transportation that holds the cards in the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction. This project should be a 7 day a week job to speed things up.Shouldn't priority be given to finish this job rather than push the deadline ahead numerous times?
Bill "Newkirk"
No it shouldn't Bill---and you know why? Because it makes too much sense. I have to wonder again what motivates the DOT anyway. There has to be an incompetent or two running the show. If most of us were an inefficient as those guys we'd be walking the streets with a tin cup.
Fred, I understand they are going to get new jobs in the So Cal Division of Cal Trans next year and design Freeways and their repairs
Oh God, that is all wse would need out here. Our freeways are parking lots as it is, but those nincompoops would------on second thought, they couldn't screw it up any worse than it already is.
I'm fairly ambivalent about that. Yes, the bridge is the responsibility of another agency. OTOH buck passing seems to be a favorite game among bureaucrats. If the MTA were a private company, would they wait for the DOT? Of course not. They'd scream, build a tunnel, sue.
Notice that the Daily News only grudgingly included a quote which actually explains the reason for the N not using the Manhattan Bridge:
While Transit runs the trains that should be using those tracks, SOMEBODY ELSE (city/state) evicted the trains in order to do some work on those tracks, and ISN'T FINISHED YET.
Why aren't Straphangers and the elected officials willing to acknowledge that, and go after DOT to actually finish the work? (Maybe they'd be confused by facts?)
Because the elected officials and the MTA officials don t use the subway
I wonder what would happen if someone in New York active on this site would organize a mass rally of all railfans. Give a three month or so notice, and all of us flood the place and raise holy hell. Maybe the Daily News and Post would finally get off their dimes and understand the gravity of the situation and the frustration of all of us, those who use the subway daily and those of us who are emotionally attached to the subway even though we live far away.
Sadly enough, the best way to bring an issue before the public these days seems to be to do something photogenic for the evening news. A protest of a few hundred people would be sufficient to attract TV coverage.
I wonder sometimes about the possibility of a subway boycott. Not just a few railfans, but the general public. Even if nothing came of it, the plan would generate publicity. The one thing the politicians can't deal with is an informed public.
(I wonder sometimes about the possibility of a subway boycott.)
That would be about as effective a form of protest as rioting and burning down your own neighborhood.
To really hit'em where it hurts, we'd all have to drive our cars in instead of taking the subway. They'd want us back on those trains in a hurry, to leave more room for them on the streets.
[(I wonder sometimes about the possibility of a subway boycott.)
That would be about as effective a form of protest as rioting and burning down your own neighborhood.
To really hit'em where it hurts, we'd all have to drive our cars in instead of taking the subway. They'd want us back on those trains in a hurry, to leave more room for them on the streets.]
The boycott would be short (one day, perhaps) and its purpose of the boycott would be publicity, not economic incapacitation of the MTA. A bit of pressure gave us a phony plan for a Second Avenue Subway; what would a bit more give us? My guess is a lot. Politicians care about only one thing, and bad news makes them fear they'll lose it.
The whole crazy thing here, is not only that there was a 5 year plan, which is taking 20 years, it's the other added extras. The tracks were fixed a long time ago. Stabilizers were installed to prevent the bridge from twisting so much. Now, they're painting the bridge. How nice. Excuse after excuse. Procrastination, after procrastination. What can be done now?
(The tracks were fixed a long time ago. Stabilizers were installed to prevent the bridge from twisting so much.)
I believe the east side was fixed, but has started cracking again, and will be rebuilt. We'll see if the fix works on the H tracks.
Do a search on newsday archive. They probably still have the article on Al Garner It was written by Ellis Henican The title was 100,000 dollars in reference to the personnel money management had to pay out.
"Where The Dream Was Made," a brief history of the Vitagraph Studio next to the Brighton Line near Avenue M (with some transit notations) is now on urbanography.com, also accessible at rapidtransit.net.
Planes RARELY crash. Subway trains however always have drags. Just to mention 2 of ur examples the 737 was not concluded until 1996 and it takes time to fix the problem if it even can have the rudder fixed. Here is the NTSB report link http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1999/A99_20_29.pdf
As far as the 747 flight 800 there is very strong evidence that it was not bad wiring but even so it was one out of 1300 vehicles. Transit has many more drags which are more simple to fix.
I have to go now will finish in 2 days since will not be here tommorrow
Do any of you remember a few years ago when transit systems were all going for the newest craze, Metro Vision. Basically they would install TV's at majour train and subway stations either hung from the ceiling or in little stands. Their function was to provide transit information (delays and service changes) and possibly some special commuter TV shows that handled the weather or event news. Well everytime I have run into a Metro Vision TV it has either been off (99%) or has a Metro Vision logo on it on some tape loop or freeze frame. Does anybody here know of any system that actually uses Metro Visoion like it was intended and do they do a good job?
PATH ditched their Metrovision. The replacement service sucks just as bad. It's apparently some sort of intranet Internet Explorer based kiosk system. I've seen it when it's down, with I.E. error boxes on the screen.
-Dave
According to PATH's director of Customer Service, Metro Vision went bankrupt.(Commuter Channel also went Belly up.
Their new system is designed to allow for future station by station and even track by track "instant" messaging for delays and next train arrival time. At this time, the system is in Phase one deployment.
I´ve never heard of Metro Vision. What cities used it?
BART had a similar set up for a while. Although the hype wwhen they installed it said it would ber system wide in fact it was only th downtown SF and two downtown Oakland stations. The ugly screens had lame news flashes promos for TV shows etc and badly programmed destination info(they replaced ist generation destination signs, and have since been superceded by third generation signs). Mostly these signs run endless warnings about parking lot security and occasional prediction of upcoming trains
I was wondering if anybody has statistics regarding Peak hour rolling stock usage vs non-peak usage. On PATCO during the non-peak they run 2 car trains, but for the few peak hours they run 6 car trains 3 time as freaquently. I have the feeling that most of the PATCo trains sit around in a yard waiting for a few hours of work. I am interested if people have % figures about car and personel usage.
Just from the schedules, the TA's "peak" car usage is well more than 50 percent of its "base" usage. For example, the F runs 12-14 trains per hour peak, and 6-8 off peak. Weekends and late nights are lower.
I have taken notice that many people have opnions on the eventual service disruptions because of the Manhattan Bridge. Most of them seem good, but the one I have to disagree on slightly is the re-routing of the B, D & Q lines along the BMT Broadway line. My opinion: this line should not have all those lines. I understand that years ago, there used to be 2 locals and 2 or 3 expresses running on this line. But what's the point? The difference in time travelling from Canal St to 57th St via the express is only 4 minutes (can somebody confirm that) less than the local. Is it really worth running 5 lines on Broadway?
What should occur? Here's my opinion:
B - During rush hours, run the following 2 section service:
Bet. Bedford Park Blvd. & 34th St (or W. 4th... whatever)
Bet. 21st/Queensbridge & Coney Island via Broadway line
During other times, run the following service:
Bet. Pacific St & Coney Island
D - During rush hours, run the following 2 section service:
Bet. 205th St & 34th St (or W. 4th...whatever)
*Bet. 57th St/7th Ave & Coney Island via Broadway line
*Train will run express between Prospect Park & Brighton Beach
All other times, run the following 2 section service:
Bet. 205th St & 34th St (or W. 4th...whatever)
Bet. 57th St/7th Ave & Coney Island via Broadway line
F - Service will be normal.
M - During rush hours, trains will be re-routed via the Brighton line, going local between DeKalb Ave & Brighton Beach. All other times, train service will be normal.
Q - Since the Rutgers St tunnel (F) is underused, the Q line will run via the F. Service will begin @ 21st/Queensbridge, run via 6th Ave line to W4th St, then the F line to Brooklyn. However, after Jay St, while F trains will run its normal route, the Q will do the following:
Rush-Hours: Service to Kings Highway, running express bet. Jay St to Church Ave, then express in peak direction (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM) between Church Ave & Kings Highway.
All other times: Service to Church Ave, running express bet. Jay St & Church Ave.
It's a little radical, but at least service is somewhat spread out, and the lines do not suffer too much from severe overcrowding.
Until next time...
PS - My question is this: Why didn't they have an area either before or after Grand St for trains to switch tracks so that service can be provided to Grand St customers without having a disruption of service?
Just a little food for thought...
You can't have trains turning at 57th/7th and going from Queensbridge via B'way at the same time, unless they put tracks in the direct to local connection at 57th/7th.
The time difference between Broadway via Bridge and Broadway via Tunnel is more like 10 minutes. Figure 2 minute per stop, 3 minutes through the tunnel (and 5 minutes Dekalb to Canal) 6 stops is 12 minutes, + 3 minutes for the tube is 15 minutes; vs 5 minutes from Dekalb to Canal.
-Hank
How much faster is a 6th avenue express from W4th to 47-50st than a local. I believe the local (F) only makes 2 additional stops.
And since the the speed on the dash from 34th to W4th seems reduced lately, B,D,and Q trains could make better time on the Broadway line.
I do think it is a shame that Grand street will be closed, because it's a very busy station. Too bad they can't just switch 6th avenue trains to the H tracks, like you said.
It won't be closed, the S to Queensbridge will originate there, as did the 57/6th one in the mid-late '80s.
Hopefully by then the new connection will be finished and nothing will be "to Queensbridge." Then the S won't be an S anymore.
Then it will (as it should) be a V.
They should run the Queensbridge shuttle using this sign. It'll get people used to seeing that letter used for 6th Avenue local service.
wayne
but it won't be going to Grand, then. The single track operation requirement leading up to the station would be too restrictive on the new Queens service headways. (unlike the little used 57th St. Shuttle.) The V will go to 2nd Ave and hopefully, beyond (rendering the original poster's "Q" service unnecessary).
Grand St. will only have a shuttle to W4. This seems like a waste. They should have built a passage to
Bowery, so Grand St. passengers could still use the station, and then transfer to the JKZ one stop one way for the F, and also one stop the other way for Brooklyn. Otherwise, they should have put in scissor switch so the 34th St. B&D terminal could be moved to Grand. (Might be hard N of the station where the tracks pull apart for the 2nd Av connection provision. Perhaps to the S)
BTW, I felt the 86-88 shuttle to 57th, plus all the shuttles to 21st St. throughout the 90's should have been called "V" too.
I don't think M trains can turn at Brighton Beach as long as D's are using the express tracks. Either the M would have to run express (and the D local) or both lines would run through to Stillwell.
It was done for a short time in the past, in the days of the NX, the D ran express to Coney Island and the QB and QJ ran local to Brighton Beach.
I assume it was stopped for a reason. On paper, it certainly makes more sense for expresses to run further than locals, but at Brighton Beach IINM the only place to reverse trains is on the express tracks.
It was stopped quickly for precisely the reason mentioned-- all the cross switching.
Besides, it has been the policy for this entire Bridge partially closed period to keep the M off the Brighton. When (if) it's all finished in a few years, you may see the M return, but this time, it will be the rush hour special. The Brighton has always wanted direct access from both exp. and local to the bridge. It is why the QB hd been retained in the first place (the earlier Chrystie plans eliminated it), and also why both Brighton services are given bridge priority over the N, even when the Bway side is open.
A lot of additional switching had to be done by QB and QJ trains terminating at Brighton Beach before the TA came to its senses and resumed the pattern of having Brighton expresses terminate there.
Move Gracie Mansion to Bay Ridge and sell the city limo fleet, give the Mayor a monthly Metrocard.
Here is something from MSNBC http://www.msnbc.com/local/WNBC/869118.asp
He will have cops surrounding him, the train will run express (he gets special treatment), cops at each station, + other stuff. What a farce !!
Jeez, if he's going to get that kind of special treatment, they really need to make sure to send out a train with seven R-33 WF singles in the middle now, just to try and balance things out :-)
The latest word (6 PM news on the radio) is that baseball commissioner Bud Selig has prohibited Rocker from riding the subway "so as not to distract from the game".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like a borderline restriction on the constitutional right of freedom of association -- in this case Rocker's right to (stupidly as it may be) associated with the people on the No. 7 train he ripped in Sports Illustrated back in December.
Unless there's something in the standard player contract or Rocker's pact with the Braves specifying how he must get to a stadium, he could probably defy Selig and win in court. Of course, after all the trouble Pascual Perez had finding Fulton County Stadium when he was with the Braves in the early 1980s, they just may have a "pre-designed mode of transportation" clause in all their player contracts...
[Unless there's something in the standard player contract...he could probably defy Selig and win in court.]
Baseball is a dictatorship, not a democratic government with a Constitution that protects the people from the government. Players routinely get fined for stating opinions with which the League disagrees. Some of the fired umpires may be re-hired, but they will be barred from criticizing Bud Selig.
It is unconstitutional as hell for Selig to give such an edict and it would be thrown out of court. Rocker could even file suit and might win. At any rate, the police said they would escort him if he decided to ride the #7 train. All this is pure garbage if you ask me. The Mets have been playing well, and they can make some hay if they can win the four-game series with the Braves. They're playing at home, they're playing well, and the Braves have been inconsistent and have a big distraction. The Mets should ignore all the other stuff, and just play ball. The devil with Rocker. His problems should not be a factor in the Mets' thinking.
Maybe Selig should ride the 7 Too, with Rocker
...while I am here in phoenix arizona drinking TONS OF WATER ....
in the 100 + dergee heat I did an investigation to if this so called ""phoenix light rail transit "" project is on line or going to be built..
As best AS I could gather the phoenix light rail is DEAD....
Or has played out and dissapeared they seem to be more interested in finishing freeways & highways here for cars & buses..
Construction of the Phoenix Street Raiolway Will Begin Construction In Approx 2004, The First 22 Miles Will Open In 2007 to 2009. The Sales Tax Only Kicked In May For Bus route Improvements & Light Rail.
Construction of the Phoenix Street Railway Will Begin Construction In Approx 2004, The First 22 Miles Will Open In 2007 to 2009. The Sales Tax Only Kicked In May For Bus route Improvements & Light Rail.
Its that time of year again. Here are WMATA's plans for providing better train service.
The Blue line will operate between Franconia-Springfield and Mount Vernon Square-7 Street/Convention Center. BTW, this is the original Yellow line route.
The Orange line will have twice as much service between Vienna/Fairfax-GMU and Stadium-Armory. Alternate trains will serve Addison Road-Seat Plesant instead of New Carrolton.
The Yellow Line will operate between Huntington and Rosslyn Upper Level.
The Red line will have alternate trains ending at Silver Spring after 11 AM.
The Green line will have normal service.
Also, Friday and Saturday service until 2 AM begins this Friday night (Saturday Morning).
Do you have a Good detailed track map??
Steve
Do you have a Good detailed track map??
Thank you
Steve
We have a track map here on the site. It does not yet include with 100% accuracy the area south of Anacostia on the Green line (still under construction), nor does it have yard details.
-Dave
Well. I think its pretty impressive that WMATA is being so proactive. The Blue/Yellow/Orange switch is a lot more efficient for most commuters, I imagine. The only thing I would say about it is that it probably means a lot more downtown transfers - I'd guess the old blue line directly serves a lot more downtown destinations than the old yellow line.
As for finally offering late night service, yahoo!
Has the management of WMATA changed? I can't imagine them thinking "outside the box" like this 5 years ago!
This isn't even on WMATA's site yet. When is this supposed to start or is it just a proposal?
Here's a new map reflecting these changes:
-Dave
Dave:
Mike Adler's map was great. What sweeping changes! I hope it serves
the riding public better.
Chuck Greene
This is just for July 4th and it is on WMATA's web site.
Ahh, well had you originally mentioned it was for 4th of July I'd have noticed it. I first went to Press Releases and there's nothing there pertaining to schedule changes or the 4th of July.
Better idea: Run the Yellow line through to Addison Road; then run the Blue Line north all the way to Greenbelt.
Or better still: forget swapping Blue and Green, save some money on pylon paint and run the Yellow Line out to Greenbelt, at least Mon-Fri 6AM-9PM (all other times Mt Vernon Sq). Swap terminals in Virginia, between Blue and Yellow as described above.
How do they plan to turn the Yellow Line trains at Rosslyn in the face of doubled-up Orange Line service? That is going to be awkward, even for holiday service.
wayne
This is for July 4th only. I forgot to put that in.
I asked the same question last year about turning around the National Airport to Rosslyn Shuttle at Rosslyn and I never rode to find out since it was the weekend of my Bar Mitzvah. I won't be able to ride this year either because I will be at camp.
You mean you are only 14 year old? Kudos to you! You are a transportation expert for your age. I'm 57 and I don't know 1/100th
of the stuff you post. Have fun at camp!
Chuck Greene
Wayne:
The original maps way back when actually showed the yellow line
going all the way to Greenbelt. I guess they thought double service
wasn't needed on that portion of the route. I ahve a "old"
color map that shows this service.
Chuck Greene
"Its that time of year again. Here are WMATA's plans for providing better train service."
Let's see if that's true.
"The Blue line will operate between Franconia-Springfield and Mount Vernon Square-7 Street/Convention Center. BTW, this is the original Yellow line route."
"The Orange line will have twice as much service between Vienna/Fairfax-GMU and Stadium-Armory. Alternate trains will serve
Addison Road-Seat Plesant instead of New Carrolton."
I presume they mean double the number of trains because trains originating at Addison Road and at New Carrollton will both go down the Orange route all the way to Vienna. But since the Blue trains at present share the Orange route between Stadium-Armory and Rosslyn, the doubling of trains is only from Rosslyn to Vienna. Between Rosslyn and Stadium-Armory, it's the same number of trains as now, only all Orange instead of half Orange and half Blue. Nevertheless, twice the trains from Vienna to Rosslyn is an improvement.
"The Yellow Line will operate between Huntington and Rosslyn Upper Level."
Whoa! This is definitely NOT an improvement! Trains that now go all the way into the center of town and interchange with all other lines will now dead-end on the Virginia side of the river, requiring a change at Rosslyn or Pentagon? For example, a person with luggage traveling from National Airport to Union Station (changing plane to train) or Dupont Circle (location of many hotels) now doesn't have to worry if the next train is Blue or Yellow. They will definitely have to in the future unless they want to make a train change with luggage at Rosslyn when they realize their Yellow train isn't going into the District.
"The Red line will have alternate trains ending at Silver Spring after 11 AM."
What do they do now? If all the trains now go to Wheaton, then it's a diminishment. If all the non-rush-hour trains terminate at Silver Spring now, and in the future only half will, then it's an improvement. And if the ridership doesn't exist beyond Silver Spring outside rush hour, why are they extending the line from Wheaton to Glenmont?
"The Green line will have normal service."
"Also, Friday and Saturday service until 2 AM begins this Friday night (Saturday Morning)."
An indubitable improvement in service, one necessary if the city wants people to consider the city as a social as well as a work and cultural/sightseeing destination. With a midnight end of service, people working in the city who stay out after work for dinner, etc. have to keep an eye on the clock to make sure their Metro carriage doesn't turn into a pumpkin. :^) And "take a cab" is not viable advice if your car is parked at a Metro lot somewhere in Maryland and you have to be at work again the next day.
This is for July 4th only!
Good thing, too. Permanent split service on the Prince George's County leg of the Orange line would probably end up being as welcome as the split service on the A train is for unknowing JFK-bound riders who try to get to Howard Beach and end up at Lefferts Blvd.
Sorry folks. I omitted this was for July 4th, 2000 ONLY! THIS IS NOT PERMANANT!
This is how they provide faster service to and from the fireworks.
The entire re-routing - ALL of the changes - are only for the 4th of July??
Despite increased service along many routes, I foresee massive problems with rider confusion. I've never heard of re-routing an entire system to this extent for one event. I think it's a terrible idea.
FLUSHING "REDBIRD" DRAGS JOHN ROCKER TO SHEA
millions hail maligned cars, R142 order cancelled.
If he rides the train, make sure its the 3rd car from the flushing end on a really hot day.
Nah, that'd just remind him of the good ol summer days of his childhood in whatever town spawned him.
They should leave the cabs unlocked, see if he thinks they're bathrooms.
Person escorting Rocker: Mr. Rocker, what are you doing?
Rocker: Just usin' the old toilet.
PER: That's not a toilet, for one thing, there's no water.
Rocker: Water? Toilets have water?
I've heard on the news that John Pocker may ride the #7 train which is the one he made fun of back in December when he voiced his own opinion about New York. He said that all the Asian ride that train and so on. City officials are trying to tell him to take a cab but I think that might also be a bad idea since he'll pick on the cab driver especially if he is a foreigner. I think it might be better for him to buy a MetroCard and ride the #7 train.
BMTJeff
I've heard on the news that John Rocker may ride the #7 train which is the one he made fun of back in December when he voiced his own opinion about New York. He said that all the Asian ride that train and so on. City officials are trying to tell him to take a cab but I think that might also be a bad idea since he'll pick on the cab driver especially if he is a foreigner. I think it might be better for him to buy a MetroCard and ride the #7 train.
BMTJeff
For one thing, I'm glad he won't be travelling alone. I don't want to get on my train knowing disorder may break out this thursday.
His train will be making express stops, so the whole brouhaha shouldn't last more than about ~20 minutes.
I don't think fans should get carried away over just one guy's opinion and start do stupid things on the #7 line. If fans do, then it's the fans who really deserve to be fined, suspended, and be sent to the minor leagues.
are you listening Conan??? there's a
sideshow gimmick in all this.. put
YOUR carbon-copy Rocker on a 7 train
before the REAL one hops it.
The "official" word as reported on the Baltimore TV stations: Rocker will ride the 7, but he will be accompanied by Police and the car he and the cops are in will be closed to the public. Not even the press will allowed.
The police will inform NYCT as to which train Rocker will be on so that the car can be isolated from the train until Rocker and the cops board.
The guy's an idiot. What does he hope to accomplish by riding the 7? Is he a railfan? Hell no! He ridiculed the city. He isn't even riding with the public. This is what I call useless publicity.
-Stef
Stef:
Your probably right that he'll be creating useless publicity but, it will be a way for the news media to take up airtime and use printer's ink for a long and drawn out story about a person that some people call an idiot. It's to bad in a way that he'll have a car to himself on the #7 train because I think it would be more interesting if he had to ride amongst others that he made racial slurs to.
BMTJeff
[It's to bad in a way that he'll have a car to himself on the #7 train because I think it would be more interesting if he had to ride amongst others that he made racial slurs to.]
We all seem to have forgotten the fact that John Rocker did not make any racial slurs. His main criticism of NYC in the Sports Illustrated interview was directed at non-English-speaking foreigners. This was not a racial comment, and wasn't even necessarily anti-immigrant (many of these foreigners might be tourists rather than immigrants). Even if Rocker had been anti-immigrant, he certainly isn't the first person to have that viewpoint. People may disagree on whether immigration has been a good thing for the United States, but there's surely no doubt that it's a controversial topic.
Rocker's comments regarding the 7 train were directed at welfare mothers, ex-cons and people with purple hair (hippie types, presumably). None of those are racial in nature and probably were meant to be funny rather than malicious. His only truly offensive comment was the one about a queer with AIDS. Yet that's also the comment that seems to have been the least remembered.
Rocker did leave Black people specifically off the list of people he hates (perhaps because they have those in Atlanta to a greater extent than in NYC).
Then again, if you assume that by "foreigner" he means any recent immigrant with a foreign language or accent (I don't think that's a stretch), he said he can't stand more than half of all NYC residents (more than half are foreign born or first generation foreign stock). Throw in the alternative lifestyle crowd, and you're pushing 60 percent. And we still have eight percent of the population on welfare, most of which are NOT immigrants of in the alternative lifestyle crowd. That pushes you close to 2/3.
If these are the people Rocker can't stand, no wonder he doesn't like NYC.
Still, I think people are making too big a deal about the guy. And plenty of New Yorkers make disparaging remarks about Rednecks, in this forum among others.
[Then again, if you assume that by "foreigner" he means any recent immigrant with a foreign language or accent (I don't think that's a stretch), he said he can't stand more than half of all NYC residents (more than half are foreign born or first generation foreign stock). Throw in the alternative lifestyle crowd, and you're pushing 60 percent. And we still have eight percent of the population on welfare, most of which are NOT immigrants of in the alternative lifestyle crowd. That pushes you close to 2/3.]
As long as we're looking at percentages ...
He also criticized ex-cons and (to use Pigs' expression) serial birthers. Figure they have to be, conservatively speaking, about 5% of the population. But then you also have to add gays into the mix, and clearly they're a substantial percentage of the city's population, probably another 5% at least. So we're up reasonably close to 75%.
{And plenty of New Yorkers make disparaging remarks about Rednecks, in this forum among others.]
Exactly. As the expression goes, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Rocker may actually be a little more mentally complicated (!) than we think. I mean, judging from the remarks of a lot of baseball players (Juan Gonzalez being the latest) they do not like the idea of being in New York because of the crowds and the press attention. Rocker in some strange way, seems to enjoy being appaled by the city at it's normal level, or else why would he have taken the Flushing Line in the first place, sometime in the past. He could have just stayed in his hotel, taken the Braves' charter bus to Shea, and taken cabs to whatever the reommended night spots in the city were for team players after a day game.
This is not an attempt to excuse what the guy did. It's just that I doubt many out-of-town players would even think about taking the subway to Shea and getting out of the cocoon pro athletes are kept in normally during their road trips.
>>>He isn't even riding with the public. This is what I call useless publicity.<<<
Not to mention a monuMENTAL waste of our tax dollars on police O/T etc.,
Peace,
ANDEE
I'll bet if he just put on some inconspicuos clothing and a baseball hat he could ride the 7 and nobody would notice.
Jersey Mike:
Maybe someone would notice because he might be stupid enough to open up his filthy mouth.
BMTJeff
It was reported today on the CBS Station in Baltimore (13) that New York will be spending up to $200K extra for security. All for Rocker.
The Mets and Braves just can't play a baseball game. This Rocker thing has taken a life of its own.
Dan Lawrence:
At least the N.Y. Mets split the four game series with the Braves. I'm g;ad that John Rocker was booed by the fans. He deserves it after what he did. Hopefully we'll have no more publicity about a stupid baseball player for sometime.
BMTJeff
Spotted yesterday:
R68 #2587 (D) and, another R68, #2918 (S)
Is anyone keeping track of any of these cars (and others) actually being fixed?
I am a conductor on the "R", "F" and "E" lines. I have reported close to 30 cars with defective A/C since the beginning of May. Most have been repaired. We do have a problem with "Warm" cars that have A/C that is not working properly or is low on freon. With the shortage of cars, the TA is not taking trains out of service unless the A/C is completely broken. I am not happy about this, and I am sure you and all of the other passengers are not either. We need more cars so the TA can properly service defective cars. Hopefully, the State will find more money to increase the fleet in the next few years.
I saw a hot car on the E, 3803 an R32.
Add 1303 and 1325 on the 4 line to the list. 1325 is a lead car..........
BTW, 1301-1305 have black floors installed in them......
3TM
I've noticed for a few years now that the CR points to the Conductors Indicator Board ... have they always done this? Or is this something I've just noticed? Why is this done?
[I've noticed for a few years now that the CR points to the Conductors Indicator Board ... have they always done this? Or is this something I've just noticed? Why is this done?]
They point in order to acknowledge that the train is properly platformed, so that all cars will open on the platform.
>>> They point in order to acknowledge that the train is properly platformed, so that all cars will open on the platform.
Peter;
I'm confused. How does pointing at the Conductor's Indicator Board accomplish that? Where is the Board? What does it look like? How does pointing help the T/O position the train?
Tom
It's a zebra striped board in the middle of the platform facing the conductor. Sometimes they are marked with numbers to be different for different length cars.
Pointing is just a useless thing invented by the TA brass. Looking is enough. It doesn't help the TO platform the train, but (assuming the conductor is responsible) will allow the conductor to be sure of the train's safe placement on the platform.
If a conductor is not paying attention he can say well i thought we were in the station but if he has to point he cannot say i thought i pointed
He can just point mechanically and get it by chance.
If he's not going to pay attention anyway, he's not going to bother to point.
Whats funny about the pointing is that its common practice amoung Japanese rail workers. The engineer raises his arm at a signal when passing, the conductor raises his arm when the train comes to a stop, and whenever they cross railtracks they look both ways and raise their arms. Different cultures I guess.
Yeah, that's where the TA got the idea. A few high-level
types (the names aren't important) made a trip over to Tokyo
and came back with this. The Japanese conductors have a much
more intricate pointing ritual that is effectively a step-by-step
safety checklist.
Of course, transported to NY the pointing just becomes another
meaningless, mechanical action. It may be good for the blame
game ( "how could you manage to open off the board, after all,
YOU POINTED AT IT, DIDN'T YOU?) though.
then he has to admit he wasnt paying attention.
He would have to do so anyway if the doors opened improperly.
First time poster. I work as a SW engineer for a supplier/developer of a major common subsystem of the R142/R142A cars. Apart from that, I'm a train buff.
Last week, during integration testing, I got the opportunity to visit the 180th street car barn and work on the new trains. In particular, I spent two full days in and around the new Kawasaki cars. They certainly are a nice article (without bias).
An obvious ergonomic issue in the cab is that the horn button is too close to the Train Operator Display touch screen. I accidentally hit the horn button while manipulating the TOD and scared my coworker out of a year's growth!
(START-SOAPBOX)
These new trains are fanstastically complex and I wanted to remark that I hope the BBS and the public will be patient while working the kinks out of the train. There's a lot of brand new, state of the art technology on board. A lot of it, in some ways, is a politically motivated technology for technology's sake attitude within the TA. The rush is on to start the 30-day test and Sys Qual, despite the fact that some systems aren't quite wrung out. Problems are bound to crop up at this stage and each issue resets the 30-day clock....
(END-SOAPBOX)
I have been following posts about Bombardier's quality relative to Kawasaki's. I can't say either way. They both have their ghood points and bad points. However, I will say that the Bombardier guys are substantially more pleasnat to work with...
-John
>>>"There's a lot of brand new, state of the art technology on board."<<<
OK John, stop the teasing and describe some of this new technology.
Tom
Geez, where do I start? Each car has it's own computer network that interfaces the signs, Train Operator Display, AAS (auto announcements system), etc. For more details go to http://www.echelon.com and search for "railroad"
Another network passes digitized audio to each car as generated by the A-car master. A built in 30 channel E1 (European T1) bus handles this.
In R110 fashion, the cab has a touch screen panel to query and control the various subsystems in the train. Eg route selection, special announcements, system status, fault history, and much more.
-John
Reminds me of an incident when the SD60m's were new and [BN ones anyway] had a foot button on the floor.. step on it once and it blew the grade crossing signal automatically. Another "only Ed could do it" We were stopped to meet another train and my partner was on the ground to make a roll by inspection of the train we were meeting. I stood to get up from the seat and by mistake stepped on that cursed button, blasting my partner's eardrums. oh, he didn't lose his hearing, but I'm glad they removed that silly device! [I'm referring to the two-engineer train opertaion on Montana Rail Link; I was the assistant but it was my turn to run.]
"A lot of it, in some ways, is a politically motivated technology for technology's sake attitude within the TA."
It is the opposite, the TA is finally stripping itself of it's conservative (pure conservative, not right conservative) attitude about technology. However, many people are still stuck in their ways and refuse to accept technology as the improvement it is.
I agree with your statement. However, it doesn't preclude my statement. Many things on the new trains are substantially more complicated than they need to be. For example, each A-car has a built-in computer system (at significant cost - custom software, etc) to interface to another A-car. All to save pins in the coupler...
Rumor has it that the TA wanted to have the "most technically advanced" train cars in the US.
All for good reason.
It's much easier to fix something on the software level as opposed to the hardware level.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I am originally an EE that now does software. I'm currently involved with fixing software problems on the new cars. It's hell. And I designed a lot of it!!!
Remember when the average Joe could fix his own car? Now the typical home mechanic cannot diagnose his own computerized car without spoecial know-how and equipment. Even professional certified mechanics have a tough time with some of it. Granted, it has improved short-term reliability (< 10 years), fuel economy, and emissions. But then again, how many auto manufacturers jumped right in from the start and specified that the headlight switch be linked to a computer to eliminate a wire from the dashboard?
Or when you could fix your own radio? Now the typical low-cost radio has a computerized tuner. It's a throw-away item. Granted, however, they are significantly more reliable over the *short term*.
I'm constantly supporting our very qualified field technicians since the system has grown more complicated. It's no longer a matter of buzzing out an open wire or replacing a bad circuit module.
For example, A door closing signal no longer comes through a single wire dedicated for this purpose. It comes through a car network that carries messages for many other functions as well. How do you trace a particular message without a network analyzer and special know-how? Worse yet, what if the hardware's working properly and the software has a intermittent bug (it's happened many a time in my career)
But, even if I were to agree with your statement, the cars are more compicated, software-wise, than they need to be. There's already a large number of pins in the existing couplers. They have proven to be reliable (barring ice ;-) ). What's two more to eliminate an entire computer system that's used to multiplex audio and data on existing pins?
Furthermore, computer circuitry is much more prone to odd problems due to power glitches (obviously common an a train). The particular system I mentioned has undergone many growing pains due to this. It would suddenly stop working, but pass all BIT tests. It ended up being due to a random power glitch stopping the software in it's tracks.
The Kawasaki cars use a computer network to interface the propulsion and braking systems with the cab controls. God forbid a glitch takes this interface out. I'd much rather depend on an electro-mechanical or pneumatic interlock system.
My previous job involved design and development of life-saving medical instrumentation. The hardware components used had to be qualified for this purpose. This ruled out MOST microprocessors. Even the software had to be designed to FDA guidelines. As a result, computer systems were reliable, but were VERY conservative by design. This was to ensure reliability.
This isn't meant to be a flame, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, design experience has taught me that the KISS (keep it simple stupid) philosophy wins in the long run.
By the time these cars have finished with their projected lifespan of 30 years, I will have retired along with many of my collegues. Who will be around to debug the systems when the people who designed it (i.e. understand the innner workings) to a rigid, over-complex specification are all gone?
Bottom line, IMHO, computers definitely have their place and their advantages. However, a blanket statement that software is better than hardware is what will cause the TA heartache in the long term....
John
John, First thanks for your input on this new car !
[By the time these cars have finished with their projected lifespan of 30 years, I will have retired along with many of my collegues. Who will be around to debug the systems when the people who designed it (i.e. understand the innner workings) to a rigid, over-complex specification are all gone?]
Oh I think someone will come along ... just look at the area museums (trolley/steam/diesel). They all have at least a few people who have learned to give their babies TLC. Meanwhile keep up the good work so that W-E don't start braning the R-142As a junk.
Mr t__:^)
I wholeheartedly disagree. I am originally an EE that now does software. I'm currently involved with fixing software problems on the new cars. It's hell. And I designed a lot of it!!!
Remember when the average Joe could fix his own car? Now the typical home mechanic cannot diagnose his own computerized car without spoecial know-how and equipment. Even professional certified mechanics have a tough time with some of it. Granted, it has improved short-term reliability (< 10 years), fuel economy, and emissions. But then again, how many auto manufacturers jumped right in from the start and specified that the headlight switch be linked to a computer to eliminate a wire from the dashboard?
The average Joe is not supposed to fix his own car. Modern cars have things that older cars didn't have: Catalytic converters, computerized fuel injection, anti-lock braking, air bags. Not to mention digital radio tuners (analog tuners should be banned by the FCC as an impediment to communication).
Or when you could fix your own radio? Now the typical low-cost radio has a computerized tuner. It's a throw-away item. Granted, however, they are significantly more reliable over the *short term*.
An IMPROVEMENT, why waste time fixing a radio when it can be more easily replaced. We haven't reached that point with cars and trains and may likely never. As I've mentioned above, analog knob tuners should be banned by the FCC as an impediment to communication. Whenever I want to set the tuner on an analog radio, the only way is to take a portable digital radio, set it to the station, and then tune the knob on the analog one until they sound the same. If radios used channels with clicks on the knob as opposed to frequency, then maybe it wouldn't be as hard.
I'm constantly supporting our very qualified field technicians since the system has grown more complicated. It's no longer a matter of buzzing out an open wire or replacing a bad circuit module.
Society has also grown more complicated. The tendency of everything is towards greater complexity and disorder.
Look at the Metrocard system for instance, it's obviously more complicated to understand than a simple buy token from agent for $1.50, drop token in slot system, but the possibilities more than make up for it.
For example, A door closing signal no longer comes through a single wire dedicated for this purpose. It comes through a car network that carries messages for many other functions as well. How do you trace a particular message without a network analyzer and special know-how? Worse yet, what if the hardware's working properly and the software has a intermittent bug (it's happened many a time in my career)
If you have to retrofit something, it's a good thing, it makes it cheaper and more possible. The people who do this work need tools and special know how anyway. The analyzer is another tool. It might replace the use of a more conventional tool.
But, even if I were to agree with your statement, the cars are more compicated, software-wise, than they need to be. There's already a large number of pins in the existing couplers. They have proven to be reliable (barring ice ;-) ). What's two more to eliminate an entire computer system that's used to multiplex audio and data on existing pins?
Just because something is reliable, does not mean it should be forever supported. The use of paper filing in offices is reliable and still used. But it's obviously easier to use a computer. Anybody who has worked in an office will know that. Unless they're computophobic.
Furthermore, computer circuitry is much more prone to odd problems due to power glitches (obviously common an a train). The particular system I mentioned has undergone many growing pains due to this. It would suddenly stop working, but pass all BIT tests. It ended up being due to a random power glitch stopping the software in it's tracks.
The Kawasaki cars use a computer network to interface the propulsion and braking systems with the cab controls. God forbid a glitch takes this interface out. I'd much rather depend on an electro-mechanical or pneumatic interlock system.
But the mechanical system can just as easily break. The difference being whether a physical item breaks or the software does is how it's diagnosed. It's obviously better to be able to modify things on the software level than rewire everything with every little thing ENIAC style.
Removing field shunting called for a wire modification in all the cars. Doing so in the new cars will be a simple matter of changing a software setting, which can be done automatically with a central computer link.
My previous job involved design and development of life-saving medical instrumentation. The hardware components used had to be qualified for this purpose. This ruled out MOST microprocessors. Even the software had to be designed to FDA guidelines. As a result, computer systems were reliable, but were VERY conservative by design. This was to ensure reliability.
The systems could have been designed with a failsafe more conservative layer. The main layer would be more computerized.
This isn't meant to be a flame, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, design experience has taught me that the KISS (keep it simple stupid) philosophy wins in the long run.
It's not always more efficient to think of the long run. Really? Don't basic economics teach one that it's better to keep something longer? Because of the rapidly changing pace of technology, and the unpredictability of the future, it's more prudent to plan for things in the shorter run as they are more predictable. If subway car material becomes cheap enough, it would be better to build units that are scheduled to last 20, not 40 years. If this had been done, the Redbirds with their obsolete features would have been gone.
By the time these cars have finished with their projected lifespan of 30 years, I will have retired along with many of my collegues. Who will be around to debug the systems when the people who designed it (i.e. understand the innner workings) to a rigid, over-complex specification are all gone?
The same thing can be said of the complex wiring on modern cars. Computerization simplifies the wiring. An upgradable software level allows a multitude of possibilites. Wiring is not as upgradable.
Bottom line, IMHO, computers definitely have their place and their advantages. However, a blanket statement that software is better than hardware is what will cause the TA heartache in the long term....
As opposed to the overtly complex, search for which wire is faulty system they currently use.
There's a reason why things are increasingly computerized.
Since this is becoming more of a philosophical discussion than having to do with the NYC subway, I will not respond to the above. I will say this, however: the philosophy in question is what is causing Bombardier and Kawasaki such hell right now. Only time will tell regarding the long term prospects of these new cars....
over the last couple of months, i have been amusing myself here taking occasional pot shots at the new equipment... most of the shots were cheap shots alluding to possible derailments or the general quality of the cars... your first post on this subject chilled me when you spoke of some political considerations of having high tech for its own sake... i was unaware and probably am still unaware of how high tech the new cars are... i hope for the city's sake and the riding public's sake some of the difficulties experienced with the changes in technology when the r-44's and r-46's were first introduced do not repeat themselves with the new equipment... as fond as i personally am of the older equipment and simpler technology, it would not bring me joy to see major problems with the new cars... i hope they serve as a safer, more comfortable, and reliable means of moving people around this city..
And it would be nice if the motor mounts on the trucks don't crack.
...because they are made out of recycled used styrofoam........
There are a few statutes and a century of case law that may require a greater burden on the MTA than they may be willing to assume. I took the case law citations from McKinney's, which is available at most local public libraries.
NYS Railroad Law S 239 This section derives from the Laws of 1881 c 399 s 1. It was incorporated into the Railroad Law of 1890.
Case Law Citations:
1. Boarding passengers
An instruction is too broad which tell the jury that it is presumptive negligence for the conductor on an elevated train to start his train without using ordiary care to discover if any person upon the platform within the range of his vision is approaching to board the train, as this would include persons about to purchase tickets, etc. and in any event a mere violation of this section is not presumptive negligence as a matter of law. Brown v. Manhattan R Co. 1905
Where a person attempted to board the train while in motion and was injured because of such motion, his contributary negligence bars a recovery. Fahr v manhattan R Co., 1894
2. Intent to depart train
Where a passenger arises as a train stops and proceeds toward the door this is notice of his intention to alight and the guard will be presumed to have seen him or will be deemed negligent in not seeing him, and starting the train under such circumstances is evidence of negligence. Fruhauf v Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1906
3. Notice to board
The mere fact that the conductor is engaged in closing the gate on a train is not notice that the car is so full as to deprive an intending passenger of the right to board the same. Wehn v Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1909
NYS Railroad Law S 240 This section dates from the Laws of 1881 c 399 s 2. It was incorporated int the Railroad Law of 1890.
Case Law
1. Closed or closing gate - Generally
A violation of the requirement that gates shall be closed while the train is in motion is evidence of negligence. Graham v. Manhattan R Co. 1896
2 -- Starting before closing gate
See also Notes of Decisions relating to boarding passengers set out under S 239
After a conductor has closed the gates and before the train has actually started he is under no duty to open the gates and admit one whom he sees approaching with intent to become a passenger. Lauterer v. Manhattan R Co. 1904
The provision of this section requiring that the train shall not be started until all intending passengers have boarded the same does not relieve an intending passenger from the imputation of negligence in boarding a train after the gate has been closed. Hills v. Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1917
Even though a conductor or guard has started to close the gate on a train this does not operate to deprive an intending passenger of the right to board the train, which should not be started until after the gate has been fully closed. Wehn v. Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1909
3. Subways
This section and S 239 apply to subway trains as well as to trains operated on elevated railroads. Levine v. Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1932
Sections 241 and 242 might also prove interesting reading
What are NYCT's rules regarding conductor responsibility for closing doors and watching for passengers? Isn't the conductor required to look in both directions after the train has begun to move to make sure nobody is being dragged?
- Jim (RailBus)
As far as I know, that is exactly what happened with the dragging boy. The conductor spotted him and pulled the brakes, probably saving his life.
Yes but sometimes the platform ios too crowded and also a lot of times passengers are so close to the train that you have trouble seeing if they are free of the doors
Going back to the 60's when I hired out the rule on the IND only stated that the conductor would ride the steps [or look out a window on later cars] for 3 car lengths after the train started to move, observing the train in both directions. The rule was applied to the ex-BMT with the Chrystie street connection and merger in late 67; I'll assume it was also put in effect on the IRT. But as was already stated sometimes platform crowding [or curves] can prevent the conductor from seeing trouble.
[Even though a conductor or guard has started to close the gate on a train this does not operate to deprive an intending passenger of the right to board the train, which should not be started until after the gate has been fully closed. Wehn v. Interborough Rapid Transit Co., 1909]
This has fairly scary implications for rules about doorholders . . .
OK, lets see if I have this straight. You are quoting laws that were written at a time when each usable opening onto a train was staffed by a Conductor who had to manually open and close the gates. Judging by the years of the cited caes, these laws ALL pre-dated the current technology that enables one CR to operate all the doors on the train.
Since the Signal Light Relay on current subway cars has taken the place of all CRs except one, it would seem that the following hold true:
If the SLR says that all the doors in that car are closed, then they are.
If all the SLRs on the train say that their doors are closed, then it is allowable for the train to proceed.
If the SLRs on the train say that all doors are closed, and, when the train is in motion, it is discovered someone is lodged in one of the doors, they must have attempted to board after the doors were closed, thereby losing the right to recovery.
Once the doors begin to close, a passenger may still board the train if it does not interfere with the closing of the door.
Now, if you wish to enforce these laws I hope you also want to enforce the ones that require a hitching post in front of NY City Hall for reporters to tie up their horses, as well as the one that requires a person to walk ahead of an automobile to warn the horses away; (The last I looked - in the mid80's - these two were still on the books also) if you are really serious, I'm sure the MTA can be forced to place a CR at every door opening to enforce compliance. Of course most people would no longer be able to afford to ride the subway at that point.
As a final point, all the cases cited were filed against private companies. as we all know, the MTA is NOT a private company - it is a NYS Authority, and as such is probably exempt from most NYS laws governing operation of a private company.
It's a free country. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. The only opinion that really matters is that of the magistrate that last ruled on these statutes.
I think that you are concentrating too much on the case law without examining the text. (I've just noticed that the NYS Laws link is down again - so the links I provided in my original post will not work). However, I prefer to view these statutes more literally in their original language - guaranteeing passengers the right for entry and exit. S 239 ...and no train on such railroad shall be permitted to start until every passenger desiring to depart therefrom shall have left the train, provided such passenger has manifested his intention to so depart by moving toward or upon the platform of any car; nor until every passenger desiring to board or enter such cars, shall have actually boarded or entered the same... I do think that the question of rights of passengers entering and exiting a car are as relevant today as they were when these statutes were first enacted.
Since the Signal Light Relay on current subway cars has taken the place of all CRs except one, it would seem that the following hold true:
If the SLR says that all the doors in that car are closed, then they are.
If all the SLRs on the train say that their doors are closed, then it is allowable for the train to proceed.
If the SLRs on the train say that all doors are closed, and, when the train is in motion, it is discovered someone is lodged in one of the doors, they must have attempted to board after the doors were closed, thereby losing the right to recovery.
Have you overlooked these parts of S 240: ...and every such gate or door shall be kept closed while the train is in motion...the car shall not start until such gate or door is again firmly closed.
If you description of the SLR's is accurate (I do have some doubts) then clearly the doors are not firmly closed so as to permit a passenger to partially open them.
I hope you also want to enforce the ones that require a hitching post in front of NY City Hall for reporters to tie up their horses,
I did see ornamental hitching posts in front of City Hall the last time I was permitted to walk in front of it. I was not aware that they fulfilled a statutory obligation. I do believe that the present City Hall incumbant has contemplated some form of restraint for reporters I don't recall whether is was a hitching post or a rack. :-)
as well as the one that requires a person to walk ahead of an automobile to warn the horses away;
You will no doubt be pleased (or saddened) that Section 318 of the NYS Highway Law was repealed about a decade ago. However, the case law had exempted automobiles when they were declared a pleasure carriage by Chapter 531 of the General Laws of 1901.
I do find it slightly ironic that a person whose complaint is that existing statutes have been made obsolete should himself be so out of touch the current state of the law.
I'm sure the MTA can be forced to place a CR at every door opening to enforce compliance. Of course most people would no longer be able to afford to ride the subway at that point.
Of course, that's the excuse given by almost every entity when the safety of its practices is questioned.
As a final point, all the cases cited were filed against private companies. as we all know, the MTA is NOT a private company - it is a NYS Authority, and as such is probably exempt from most NYS laws governing operation of a private company.
That is a question for a magistrate to decide.
"I'm sure the MTA can be forced to place a CR at every door opening to enforce compliance."
Stephen, we've been down parallel roads before.You seem to delight in attempting to bash transit managementat every turn. However, as I pointed out in my last related post, your arguments are beginning to wear thin. If you think century old case law has any relevance to today's subway system then go for it. Try to have the MTA forced to provide a conductor at every door. I think any right-minded magistrate would find that you are sounding a few cards short of a full deck.
To that end, what is your problem? If you hate the system so much - take a cab or walk. To put not such a fine point on things, every day the New York City Subway System carries 4.2 million customers. Every day more than 99.999% get to where they are going without incident or unreasonable delay. Yet you and a few others here sieze on the unusual as evidence thatthe system is mis-managed. Here's a thought. Apply for a job as a manager. They are posted on the TA website. If you think you can do better - come on down.... And then when you have to juggle trains for service, removing crews for random testing, capturing cars due for inspection and maintaining a 95% OTP with 91,000 mile MDBF, you can cite 1890's labor law to insure that your employees live up tot the collective bargaining agreement.
I never thought that posting a couple of NYS Statutes would create such controversy. Nor, did I think that suggesting that they be obeyed would touch a raw nerve.
"I'm sure the MTA can be forced to place a CR at every door opening to enforce compliance."
Stephen, we've been down parallel roads before.You seem to delight in attempting to bash transit managementat every turn. However, as I pointed out in my last related post, your arguments are beginning to wear thin. If you think century old case law has any relevance to today's subway system then go for it. Try to have the MTA forced to provide a conductor at every door.
Please review the posts. I did not make that statement. Again, the statute says that anybody that is on the platform when a train stops is entitled to board it- provided there is enough room in the car. Is that objectionable? Does NYCT believe that the only way to comply with this existing law is to place a conductor in every car? Does NYCT seriously believe that anyone would believe them, if they made such a statement? N.B. the apparant volume of litigation in the gate car days would indicate that this was not a very effective strategy.
If you hate the system so much - take a cab or walk.
Too many people find the system unattractive and have done that or used a private automobile. I would hope that official policy is to attract riders rather than discouraging them. Alas, your statement appears to echo the latter sentiment.
To put not such a fine point on things, every day the New York City
Subway System carries 4.2 million customers. Every day more than 99.999% get to where they are going without incident or unreasonable delay. Yet you and a few others here sieze on the unusual as evidence thatthe system is mis-managed.
So, what you're saying is that an average of 420 customers per day are injured or unreasonably delayed. Is there any breakdown between injured and delayed? Is there any definition of delay and unreasnoable delay. The statistic is more meaningful as a measure of management ability, if it can be compared to previous figures.
Thirty years ago a delay of 5 minutes in terminal to terminal running time would have been considered late. You have already stated that the F train running time was increased by 6 minutes during the last decade. Thirty years ago, today's performance would have resulted in a 0% on time rating. I believe the current jargon for such statistical legerdemain is decreased expectations.
Here's a thought. Apply for a job as a manager. They are posted on the TA website. If you think you can do better - come on down.... And then when you have to juggle trains for service, removing crews for random testing, capturing cars due for inspection
I'm afraid I'm over age. I'm enjoying retirement. The believe the best contribution I can make is to point out mediocrity where I see it. After all a recent survey on that subject disovered that mediocre performers don't know that their performance is mediocre. :-)
... and maintaining a 95% OTP with 91,000 mile MDBF,
These numbers have been established by changing the the calculation method. I do not respect such management ploys.
You seem to have done it again, Shephen. I say more than 99.999% and you take that as the worst case. What does that really mean. One train with 1,000 on board is delayed by one sick customer, one bad signal, one vandal or a defective door and there you have it - 99.999%. That doesn't mean that management accepts it or likes it. However, name any other service business that does as well. Your problem is that you focus on the minutia in life and never see the larger picture. That's going to be your cross to bear because I'm opting out of you ping-pong BS debates.
Here's a thought. Today an 80 year old woman was struck and killed by a fire truck in lower Manhattan. Perhaps you can spend a week in the library and uncover some English Common Law that governs the safe operation of a fire truck in an emergency. Perhaps 18th Century law requires a fire warden to walk in front of the truck banging a pot with a hammer to alert pedestrians. In short, if you really think that 19th century laws related to mass transit have any relavence in thus century, you have issues that far surprass my lack of tollerance for your trivialities.
[You seem to have done it again, Shephen. I say more than 99.999% and you take that as the worst case. What does that really mean. One train with 1,000 on board is delayed by one sick customer, one bad signal, one vandal or a defective door and there you have it - 99.999%.]
I don't really want to intrude on this debate, but the notion that only one in 1000 trains is significantly delayed on a given day is laughable, given that in the last few months alone I've experienced numerous announced delays due to sick passengers and such, including one that forced me to obtain a transfer and walk to another line. Is that an official figure? If so, the TA goes down, well, about 99.999% in my estimation.
Jump in - the water is fine. I ride the NYCT every workday as do most people in NYC. Rarely am I delayed significantly. This by no means is to suggest that it does not happen because it does. We all know it does. My point was not the number. My point in my original post was the following: Every day the NYC Subway system carries 4.2 million people. Most arrive on or close to time in relatively good shape. The problem is that there are roughly 4 people on Subtalk who sieze upon every negative incident as proof of managerial incompetance or indifference. This is not the case and I can state this from personal experience.
However, I took particular exception to MR. Bauman resorting to looking up century-old laws to prove that the TA management should be held liable for drag cases when he knows perfectly well that the cars involved were operating as designed. I also strenuously resented posts from heypaul who implied (clearly without any knowledge) that the car involved in the last drag case was improperly maintained and that the mechanic & TA should be held criminally liable. Again, if the number was 90% the TA would be doing a credible job. I was just gettig tired of the Ping-Pong BS from these 2 effete pseudo-intellectuals who wait like old maids for another piece of gossip to chew on. (No offense guys)
I took particular exception to MR. Bauman resorting to looking up century-old laws to prove that the TA management should be held liable for drag cases when he knows perfectly well that the cars involved were operating as designed.
My remarks made it clear I thought there was fault in the design. I mentioned a fundamental design difference with the D-cars, when challenged. The challenger conceeded the point.
As an effete pseudo-intellectual old maid gossip engineer I almost always found it advantageous to make sure that my designs conformed to all laws, regulations and codes. Not following them left my company wide open for liablilty in any negligence action. Following them did not by itself protect my company but it did not hurt.
Again, if the number was 90% the TA would be doing a credible job.
Assigning a subjective value to such a metric depends on the context and previous performance. I don't know what the number is. I'd wager it's a lot less than the 99.999% you stated. I'd also wager it's a lot less than what it was 30 and 40 years ago.
Again, we go back 30 or 40 years ago. It was a different world then. Dare I say the demographics of NYC were different. People had respect for the system. There was not the outrageous vandalism of the equipment. There was a stronger work-ethic in the workforce. You are remembering the good old days but think back to the 70s. the decade of deferred maintenance. the decade of derailments and mornings where being 20 trains down was considered a good day.
The fact is that it's a different world today with different equipment, different people and a different workforce. TA has become more bottom line driven and has taken on more of the characterisitcs of a business. it's clearly more top-heavy than it once was. At the same time EEO, workrules FTA and the like have all changed the was the TA operates. Clearly it's a different organization than it was 30 or 40 years ago. As for assertion about the service being better 30 or 40 years ago - definitely not!!!!
You are remembering the good old days but think back to the 70s. the decade of deferred maintenance. the decade of derailments and mornings...
Actually, I was thinking back to the 50's and early 60's.
...where being 20 trains down was considered a good day.
Has today's solution been to schedule 50 fewer trains? It would appear that the shortage problem was solved by taking the worst performance days from the late 70's - early 80's and declared it the new base line schedule. Instant solution to the shortage problem.
As for assertion about the service being better 30 or 40 years ago - definitely not!!!!
My assertion is based on the figures for train frequency, trip duration and passenger load factor. What additional parameters should I consider to contradict this assertion?
Since I was a customer back in the 50s and 60s, I am not privy to the same facts you are. Where do you get your data?
You also have not responded to my assertations that changing demographics and a growing disrespect for public property have also contributed to increased delays to service. While we are pondering, how would you account for the rapid rise in the number of delays caused bu sick customers (over the 50s and 60s?)
Since I was a customer back in the 50s and 60s, I am not privy to the same facts you are. Where do you get your data?
I've always been a customer. This is my bias as an observer. The data that I'm using for service levels comes from the first annual TA report. They placed the rush hour service levels and capacities in a supplement in the jacket. That's how a guesstimated the 50 fewer trains.
The running times come from various third party guides such as the Geographia Red Book series. Both figures do correlate to my memories of that period.
If you have access to additional data, please supply them I do not need nor do I want to fabricate data.
You also have not responded to my assertations that changing demographics...
I have not responded because I wish to maintain focus on this topic. I think that an updated release of Moynihan and Glazer's "Beyond the Melting Pot" might well be fascinating. However, I believe that it is not relevant.
...and a growing disrespect for public property have also contributed to increased delays to service.
Please supply some data, if it exists. However, this is a dual edged sword. Some observers might rightly identify the TA's policy of deferred maintenance as disrescpect for public property.
I am not trying to give you what you term a pseudo effete liberal, etc. response. Personally, I felt a lot less respect for the buses I rode, when they introduced plastic seats and non-powered rear doors back around '57 or '58.
While we are pondering, how would you account for the rapid rise in the number of delays caused bu sick customers (over the 50s and 60s?)
This is certainly an interesting question for thorough examination. Are there data for the number of incidents for comparable periods? Has there been any difference in the response to reported incidents? I don't know these answers. I think these questions should be answered early in any such examination.
In the 50's the subway was as good a railroad as anybody could want; people have always complained. The deferred maintenance of the late 50's caught up by the mid-late 60's, by the 70's even the l950's-early 6o's equipment was bad. In comparison even the old IRT relics did a good job right up to the end, but of course were junked before things hit the fan. When I left in l977 the system was a disaster. I was pleased to see when I finally visited in l996 [and subsequent visits] that the system was as good as ever and the atmbience of fear, filth, and graffitti was almost nonexistant. Comparing today to the 50's the only improvement is [service wise] that the modern (?) equipment saves about 5-6 minutes an hour in running time.
Comparing today to the 50's the only improvement is [service wise] that the modern (?) equipment saves about 5-6 minutes an hour in running time.
I don't think the new cars or the present operation live up to your expectations. Let's compare some running times that are available on the web. The BMT running times from 1924 using Standards and BU cars were then available. I would assume that these would not qualify as modern equipment.
Old BMT Equipment Timetables
The current schedules are also available on the MTA website.
#1/D - Brighton Local CI - Dekalb - both are 34 minutes.
#1/Q - Brighton Exp BB - DeKalb 22 min (1924) 23 min (2000)
#2/R - 4th Ave Loc 86 Bklyn - Times Sq 45 min (1924) 50 min (2000) N.B. 2000 from 95th St
#3/B - West End Exp - CI - Times Sq 44 min (1924) 49 min (2000) N.B. 2000 to 34th St & 6th Ave
#4/N - Sea Beach Exp - CI - Myrtle 29 min (1924) 34 min (2000) N.B. 2000 to DeKalb
#10/M - Myrtle-Chambers - Metropolitan - Chambers 26 min (1924) 30 min (2000)
#15/J - Jamaica Exp - 168 - Chambers 45 min (1924) 44 min (2000) N.B. 2000 from Jamaica Ctr (160 St)
The times were obviously faster in 1924 using old equipment. Even the Eastern District trains which were using BU cars at that time were faster.
I have running times from the 1972 "Little Red Book" published by Geographia. The runs are more in keeping with today's routes. It shows that the 1972 running times were significantly faster than todays. However, the 1972 equipment was to a large extent contemperanous with today's. I think that figures shown above do justice to the performance exhibited by the bright shiny modern equipment you so admire.
...the system was as good as ever and the atmbience of fear, filth, and graffitti was almost nonexistant.
I think you have been blinded by the razzle dazzle and not taken a long hard look at the performance.
I think I left a lot of misunderstanding: Jeff H.'s reply brought up a good thought, and yes, I admit the trains do feel slower now. But that was not the original intent of the equipment. My general feeling about the present is that it is better than what I left in the 70's but then so is the city generally,, a matter of opinion.Whether I liked them or not the SMEE (R10-42) equipment did reduce running times. The R44/46 did not, on the F for instance an R1-9 would make better time if it were a good one. I do need to clarify that given my druthers I druther have the old High-V, Low-V, R1-9,AB's D''s, BU's, Manhattan el cars over any postwar equipment. I loved them and hated their replacements for seeing old "friends" junked.But like everything else I got used to them. But my feelings for any of them is nothing like what I knew in my youth. It wasn't a thing I"d give up a job over, or desert the system and my interests as a railfan.
Comparing today to the 50's the only improvement is [service wise] that the
modern (?) equipment saves about 5-6 minutes an hour in running time.
What the god of SMEE giveth, the god of Enercon hath taken away.
Running times with _today_'s equipment are actually longer than
with the AMUE equipment of the 1930s. Add to the no-field-shunt
issue all of the timers (of various flavours) and speed restriction
signs and it is pretty bad.
how would you account for
the rapid rise in the number of delays caused bu sick customers (over the 50s and 60s?)
That's an easy one and it doesn't even have to touch the
surface of xenophobia.....LAWYERS!
When there was a sick passenger in the 50s or 60s, the train crew
was allowed to deal with it, including giving first aid, taking
the passenger off the train, etc. Now, because of the sue-sue-sue
mentality, the train crews are required to freeze and do nothing
until police or EMS arrive.
>>> That's an easy one and it doesn't even have to touch the surface of xenophobia.....LAWYERS! <<<
Jeff;
Blaming lawyers for the change in TA policy is like killing the messenger that brings bad news. Society has decided that a higher standard of care is needed than having medically untrained personnel remove a sick or injured person from a subway train. I'm sure there were just as many lawyers opposing the change as advocating it.
The TA made the conservative decision to allow a lower level of service by halting a train to permit trained paramedics respond to sick or injured passengers. I assume, without doing any research on the subject that at some time in the past the TA was sued and lost a bundle when a CR helped a sick or injured passenger off a train to a platform, and left him/her there without further care and the passenger then died or suffered further injury from inattention.
Alternative solutions were available (but maybe not as good) such as extensive training of CR's as paramedics, and having personnel on hand at stations to remain with sick or injured passengers who could be safely be removed from a train, but this was the one the TA chose.
Tom
To the TA--oh so what. The actual wellbeing of a sick passenger is paramount, but as to fear of lawsuits, what about the aggregate value of the passengers' time?
What we have in this thread it seems is a whole bunch of bureaucratic justifications for slower service, less frequent service, longer delays. The employees aren't as good. There's more vandalism. We have to conserve energy. We have to install grade timers. We have to remove shunt coils. We have to cripple brakes. We have wait for the ambulances to arrive.
What I haven't seen is a compelling argument for *any* of these things.
That wasn't a casual lawyer-bashing shot. You're right, lawyers
per se, as individuals, are not exactly to blame. However, the
legal system provides financial rewards for making trouble.
As our society ages, it becomes bloated with laws and bureaucracy.
"Common sense" died a few decades ago. It's getting to be that one
can't do anything anymore without consulting with a lawyer. Curious
parallels to other great empires that have fallen, such as the
Roman, Ottoman and British.
But back to the immediate subject, train crews are both trained
and empowered to do less and less. This is advantageous for
their employer in that instead of having to deploy thousands and
thousands of well-trained, highly-skilled workers who only rarely
need to draw on those attributes, they can utilize lower-paid
workers with much less training and much less autonomy, and simply
tell them to call Control Center if they don't know what to do.
This goes beyond sick passengers, as Train Dude et al. have
lamented the decline of mechanical knowledge that crews possess.
Once I struck up a conversation with an extra list crew dead-heading
to a midnight job. They had just gotten out of the training class.
"Do you know the procedure for pulling the electric portions?"
Grimace. "Do you remember what that star on the #3 door panel
means?" "uh, wow, yeah, they mentioned something about that in
training class"
The net result is that, when things are going right, the system
is economically a lot more efficient. When things are not so
great, though, there is a significant delay in having skilled
persons respond to the location of the incident.
As Train Dude points out in this thread, in most cases the
sick passenger is conscious and could be moved off the train,
if only the train crew were allowed to offer assistance. Often,
paramedics are available a few stops away, but it is not permissible
to have the train run out to that point.
[[how would you account for the rapid rise in the number of delays caused by sick customers (over the 50s and 60s?)]
[When there was a sick passenger in the 50s or 60s, the train crew
was allowed to deal with it, including giving first aid, taking the passenger off the train, etc. Now, because of the sue-sue-sue mentality, the train crews are required to freeze and do nothing
until police or EMS arrive.]
AIDS fears probably are a factor as well.
I was a NYCT conductor l965-67 and a motorman 67-77; we had no first aid training nor were we able to physically contact a passenger legally. But I agree with you on the sue-sue-sue mentality. It has gotten out of hand nationwide and everyone begins at a million dollars or more. In whatever aspect of life..rails, auto, home insurance it is the general public who'll pay-pay-pay.The insurance companies nor the self-insured will absorb it, they couldn't survive. But more likely than not the whole line wouldn't be tied up, passengers delayed as much, etc.
Unfortunately, good samaritan laws do not extend to the untrained but good intentioned. Although I have had some first aid training, I'd be reluctant to get involved in any such situation because, frankly, I have too much to lose. It's quite apparent that the NYCT policy of waiting for medical assistance has evolved because of just such situations. Since we all support the NYCT through taxes, we should all appreciate this. I think that the recent change in strategy where a nurse is stationed at key locations is a band-aid approach tot he situation. I believe that new laws need be enacted. these laws would serve to permit the train crew, after consultation via radio to either:
1) Remove the sick passenger from the train and leave him or her in the care of a station agent or
2) Discharge the train and use it as an ambulance to transport the sick customer to a point in the system where help could be speedily available.
In both cases, I believe the end result would be to reduce delays caused by sick customers without placing the sick customer at undue risk.
Makes sense.
1. all for it!
2. Public transit is neither ambulance nor paratransit (my personal grouge against 2 block spacing of bus stops)
Arti
Dude;
Both your ideas have merit, but each requires someone to take a decision, and the TA seems to prefer to have one SOP that takes no thinking to follow, and is the most conservative course of action.
Tom
(1) Remove the sick passenger from the train and leave him or her in the care of a station agent or
2) Discharge the train and use it as an ambulance to transport the sick customer to a point in the system where help could be
speedily available.)
I agree, to an extent.
In the case of #1, I wouldn't remove a passenger who couldn't move by dragging them off the train. Only if they were sick, but could move with assistance, would it work.
I wouldn't even discharge in case of #2. I'd just inform the passengers that the train would be going express to stop X to transport a sick customer to the hospital, then ram it through. #2 would work especially well outside Manhattan, where express tracks are available. Ideally, paramedics could be posted -- or at least able to quickly get to -- stations near hospitals, and these could be equipped with elevators.
The current policy doesn't help the passenger. It just avoids liability.
The key here is communications. The conductor/T/O station agent would have to be able to talk to medical personnel and the passenger. That requires a hand held radio that could connect with HQ. I don't think the TA is capable of this, a factor that also restricts its response to crime.
larry... if you mean a hand held radio that connects to the ta command center, i think the motorman and conductors are all using battery powered portable radios now...
The old motorola radios with the handles are all but gone. The crews now carry portable bendix units.
"I wouldn't even discharge in case of #2. I'd just inform the passengers that the train would be going express to stop X to transport a sick customer to the hospital, then ram it through. #2 would work especially well outside Manhattan, where express tracks are available. Ideally, paramedics could be posted -- or at least able to quickly get to -- stations near hospitals, and these could be equipped with elevators."
What you say makes a lot of sense except that customers would also have their say. At virtually every station, there would be a pulled cord.
("I wouldn't even discharge in case of #2. I'd just inform the passengers that the train would be going express to stop X
to transport a sick customer to the hospital, then ram it through."
What you say makes a lot of sense except that customers would also have their say. At virtually every station, there would be a
pulled cord.)
That's more cynical than even I'm prepared to be.
Let's say the T/O announced that an F train would be going express to Bergen St to rush a sick passenger to Long Island College hospital, and that the train would be met by paramedics at Bergen.
I believe passengers would get off if they required intermediate stations, and stay on if they were going to Manhattan and believed the paramedics would be there and the sick passenger would be removed quickly.
I can't imagine what sort of person would pull the cord in a station if that would prevent someone from getting to the hospital. I'd bet that such a person would be grabbed by the other passengers, and end up going to jail.
I have noticed some stations now have EMTs/Paramedics on the standby such as Jay Street IND Brooklyn.
As I said, a band aid approach to the problem. having a nurse at jay Street will do no good when the train is heading south and the customer becomes ill at Carroll St. Clearly, if the good Samaritan laws were expanded to include people in authority such as a train crew, more would likely come to their aid.
I always thought public transit carried passengrs,not customers.
The language is changing. Just about the time a correspondent told me that passengers were now called customers I noticed that my freight railroad employer now called the shippers customers. This goes back about ten years.
I read in Crane's the other day that the NY State legislature could do something about the lawsuit problem by limiting lawsuits as other states have, but it seems that our corrupt legilators are in the pay of the trial lawyers.
Damn, is there anybody our state legislators don't work for--besides the public, I mean?
[I read in Crane's the other day that the NY State legislature could do something about the lawsuit problem by limiting lawsuits as other states have, but it seems that our corrupt legilators are in the pay of the trial lawyers.]
It's not as if any other states have been able to accomplish much. Take a look at a telephone book for almost any city, large or small, in the United States - it'll be chock full of lawyer ads ("Have you been injured?"). Only chiropractors come remotely close to lawyers when it comes to sleazy advertising.
Well, there is a dentist in Bismarck, ND that advertizes that he has a cure for bad breath.(Can probably get one without a prescription at a drugstore). My equation is: more and more higher education because most of the mid level decent paying jobs are move out of the country or automated equals too many degrees especially too many lawyers therefore the work is needed so the sue the illegitimates idea, and for millions of dollars, creates work. It doesn't end there..anybody think of how many people now make a living off the increasing social problems: drug rehab, abortion,"bad kids", poverty, whatever. I bring this up to specify that I'm notpicking on lawyers. But with [rough figures] I've heard the USA has 5% of the world's population and 50% of the lawyers. Don't mind me..I"m from the 50's.
[It's not as if any other states have been able to accomplish much. Take a look at a telephone book for almost any city, large or small, in the United States - it'll be chock full of lawyer ads ("Have you been injured?"). Only chiropractors come remotely close to lawyers when it comes to sleazy advertising.]
Yeah, but who are they suing? Businesses, or the states?
[It's not as if any other states have been able to accomplish much. Take a look at a telephone book for almost any city, large or small, in the United States - it'll be chock full of lawyer ads ("Have you been injured?"). Only chiropractors come remotely close to lawyers when it comes to sleazy advertising.]
But who are they suing? Businesses, or the states?
[[It's not as if any other states have been able to accomplish much. Take a look at a telephone book for almost any city, large or small, in the United States - it'll be chock full of lawyer ads ("Have you
been injured?"). Only chiropractors come remotely close to lawyers when it comes to sleazy advertising.]
[But who are they suing? Businesses, or the states?]
I'm not sure if I entirely understand your question, but if you mean who are these lawyers (in the phone book ads) willing to sue, the answer is anyone with money. They certainly aren't choosy.
"I read in Crane's the other day that the NY State legislature could do something about the lawsuit problem by limiting lawsuits as other states have, but it seems that our corrupt legilators are in the pay of the trial lawyers."
"Damn, is there anybody our state legislators don't work for--besides the public, I mean?"
I used to work in a small general practice law firm and we had a couple of cases against the CTA while I was there. Good, solid cases where a CTA employee caused somebody severe injury because they were clearly negligent. Nothing systematic that could be attributed to faulty design of buses or trains, just lapses of common sense by individual CTA employees.
Suing CTA is not easy. The Metropolitan Transit Authority Act* requires notice to the CTA within six months of an accident or you lose your right to sue. The notice has to contain very particular information and has to go to very particular people (the Secretary of the Board and the General Counsel, IIRC), and any slipup, however minor, is ironclad grounds to throw out the suit.
ANY organization that operates hundreds of vehicles a day is bound to have some of its workers injure passengers or the public through negligence. UPS, Domino's Pizza, anyone. But, according to you, the Transit Authority is different because it's owned by the people. People who are injured through the negligence of a hotshot UPS driver should be able to collect for their legitimate injuries, but someone injured by a common-sense-impaired TA employee should just "suck it up", grin and bear it?!? Are TA workers somehow more perfect and less prone to screw up than workers for UPS or Domino's?
Are there frivolous and stupid lawsuits? Yes. But there are completely legitimate suits too, where someone just wants to be made whole, as best as the law can with compensation, for the wrong done to them. Limiting or eliminating lawsuits does nothing to distinguish between the lousy cases and the deserving ones. It just throws them all out, making no distinction between thwarting the frauds and screwing the honest victims. Cloaking the TA in immunity from lawsuits would just make the victims of TA errors into victims a second time, and also take away any incentive the TA has to fix problems so that there would be more victims of negligence in the future.
Sovereign immunity, the idea that governments can't be sued, arose in England on the theory that "the king can do no wrong." We fought a revolution to prove that even a king CAN be wrong and that the government is not superior to its citizens. Anyhow, nobody's going to be mistaking the TA president or a bus driver for a king anytime soon. They're human, humans individually and in organizations make mistakes, and human individuals and organizations must be held responsible for their mistakes. That the individual is working for the government, that the organization IS the government, doesn't change that.
*Yes, though it's the Chicago Transit Authority, that's the name of the law that created it. Go figure.
[Are there frivolous and stupid lawsuits? Yes. But there are completely legitimate suits too, where someone just wants to be
made whole, as best as the law can with compensation, for the wrong done to them. Limiting or eliminating lawsuits does nothing to distinguish between the lousy cases and the deserving ones. It just throws them all out, making no distinction between thwarting the frauds and screwing the honest victims. Cloaking the TA in immunity from lawsuits would just make the victims of TA errors into victims a second time, and also take away any incentive the TA has to fix problems so that there would be more victims of negligence in the future.]
Here's where we disagree. I believe that for the good of society, all personal injury lawsuits should be outlawed, without any exceptions whatsoever. It shouldn't matter whether the negligent parties are private or public entities, or whether the incidents involved car crashes, slips-and-falls, transit accidents, or whatever. If you're injured, you can be compensated by your own health insurance policy.* If the negligent party was really reckless, let the criminal law handle the matter.
* = the money saved by getting rid of personal injury lawsuits probably would be enough to provide health insurance for the currently uninsured.
"If you're injured, you can be compensated by your own health insurance policy."
The damages from a personal injury case can easily go way beyond the medical bills.
If I get hit by a bus, my HMO is going to not only pay to treat my injuries but they'll cover my lost wages from spending two weeks in the hospital? Not in this reality, pal!
When the bus hit me, I lost $100 of groceries and ruined a $350 suit. Who pays for that in your system? Do I eat the cost (and the lost income) and thank my lucky stars that my medical bills were paid? Or could I sue the driver for the damage to my property? If I can sue for that, why can I sue for someone negligently tearing up my blue double-breasted and a roasted chicken dinner but not my own skin and flesh and muscle?
[re banning personal injury lawsuits]
["If you're injured, you can be compensated by your own health insurance policy."
The damages from a personal injury case can easily go way beyond the medical bills.
If I get hit by a bus, my HMO is going to not only pay to treat my injuries but they'll cover my lost wages from spending two weeks in the hospital? Not in this reality, pal!]
With the massive amounts of money that would be saved by getting rid of all personal injury lawsuits, just maybe we could have decent health insurance policies - including loss-of-income benefits (which many employers have anyway).
[When the bus hit me, I lost $100 of groceries and ruined a $350 suit. Who pays for that in your system? Do I eat the cost (and the lost income) and thank my lucky stars that my medical bills were paid? Or could I sue the driver for the damage to my property? If I can sue for that, why can I sue for someone negligently tearing up my blue double-breasted and a roasted chicken dinner but not my own skin and flesh and muscle?]
Life 101: bad things can happen, and sometimes you just have to take your lumps.
You can't ban personal injury suits. After all, we have the court system as an alternative to people settling things themselves some other way, like the Hatfields and the McCoys.
I do believe that proportional liability, and limiting "pain and suffering" payments to cases where a party was predominantly responsible, would solve the major problem -- the "deep pockets" problem.
Take the lawsuit filed against New York City for failing to protect those women in Central Park. I'm not sure the plaintiffs are even bothering to sue the men who actually committed the crime, or the cops who failed to do anything -- just "you and me." If we had proportional liability and a fair judge or jury, "you and me" would be found one-hundreth of one percent liable. If those less than 50 percent responsible could not be made to pay pain and suffering, we'd end up owing a few dollars at most (depending on the ability to demonstate "psychic harm").
Chances are, many of the most frivilous lawsuits would not be filed.
Unfortunately, dropped groceries and torn clothing aren't what bring lawsuits. Some have likened the civil courts to a lottery, with the prizes being thousands upon thousands of dollars in non-economic damages, such as "pain and suffering", "emotional distress" and "loss of consortium".
The problem is that it is extremely difficult to quantify a dollar amount for something which is by definition non-economic. Defense attorneys are also caught in a bind -- they can't dispute the amount of damages requested without appearing to be admitting some degree of culpability.
Governmental immunity isn't the answer, however. Everyone needs to be held responsible for their actions. Bifurcated trials (a first trial to establish responsibility, and a second to determine damages) and/or caps on non-economic damages seem to me to be the best ways to rein in ridiculous lawsuits without leaving injured parties uncompensated.
Chuck
Can you imagine how much more negligence there would be in this country if people couldn't be sued for negligence. Companies would cut corners on safety to save money. Homeowners wouldn't fix cracks in their sidewalks. Airlines wouldn't have to spend millions to have safety studies and fix airplanes for safety. And what about wrongful death cases? The health insurance companies won't pay for death. Or even medical malpractice cases? For the city ad other gov't agencies to save money on civil lawsuit cases all they have to do is get rid of all the lawyers that only think "settle out of court" and hire lawyers with the balls to take every case to trial. As a cop I know of numerous cases which had no merit whatsoever (the plaintiff was lying through their teeth) but the city still settled for thousands.
(For the city ad other gov't agencies to save money on civil
lawsuit cases all they have to do is get rid of all the lawyers that only think "settle out of court" and hire lawyers with the balls to take every case to trial.)
Just another example of government short-sightedness. The cheapest way out of any given case, or the cases in any given year, is to settle. But that just encourages more cases. Fighting every case would be expensive in the short run, not in the long run.
>>> all they have to do is get rid of all the lawyers that only think "settle out of court" and hire lawyers with the balls to take every case to trial <<<
Jeff;
Simple solutions may lead to unwanted consequences. If every case is fought to the bitter end at trial (for example, a case where an intoxicated bus driver runs a red light and hits a child in a cross-walk), juries will bring back much higher awards than a settlement would cost, plus the expenses of litigation. In addition, there would be very unfavorable press coverage if the TA were seen to be trying to deprive deserving victims of just compensation.
Perhaps, whoever is managing the cases should look at those being settled for nuisance value more closely to determine it the added expense of taking them to trial (and winning) will be cost effective in the long run by limiting future litigation.
Tom
We all pay, in the form of higher insurance premiums.
I quite agree to eliminate punitive damage suits, and to eliminate the contingency fee system that encourages marginal law suits.
If an injured person needs a lawsuit to recover damages, and to continue living decently, and cannot afford a lawyer, then this is a separate issue that society needs to address, but we all pay double the way it is now.
I don't have a problem with contingency fee lawsuits -- it does open up avenues of recourse for those who might otherwise have none. But I do think that the loser should pay the reasonable legal fees of the prevailing party.
That alone would probably reduce the number of frivolous lawsuits.
Chuck
>>> the loser should pay the reasonable legal fees of the prevailing party <<<
This is the English system which has been rejected in America unless it is provided for in a contract between the parties.
If this were the general law, there would still be two problems.
(1) If you are being sued by a person with no assets, if you lose you pay his attorney's fees, but if you win, you will be entitled to attorney's fees but have no way to collect. It has been suggested that either the plaintiff put up a bond to cover the attorney fee cost, or make the plaintiff's attorney responsible if the plaintiff cannot pay. Either way would put the courts out of reach to the poor.
(2) If you are an average person with assets and want to sue a large corporation (like Ford, or Microsoft) you can be sure that they will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorney's fees to defend the suit. Unless you have a dead bang winner, the risk of losing all your assets will probably stop you from filing a meritorious suit.
This system would cut down on the number of lawsuits for the reasons stated above, but it would not be specific to frivolous lawsuits. Most jurisdictions now have some remedy against frivolous litigation, usually through a second suit by the prevailing party for "Abuse of Process".
Tom
[We all pay, in the form of higher insurance premiums.
I quite agree to eliminate punitive damage suits, and to eliminate the contingency fee system that encourages marginal law suits.
If an injured person needs a lawsuit to recover damages, and to continue living decently, and cannot afford a lawyer, then this is a separate issue that society needs to address, but we all pay double the way it is now.]
I think a modified loser pays system can take care of the contingency fee problem, while still providing representation to indigent victims.
Another thing that would help is some kind of limit on contingency fees. As it now stands, ambulance chasers can afford to shotgun cases knowing that they'll make it up on the ones they win. Plaintiffs, whether they win or lose, are effectively financed by a percentage of overall judgments, while defendants have to cough up for their own laywers. Given the cost of defending a case like this, some are forced to settle just to avoid legal expenses.
>>> As it now stands, ambulance chasers can afford to shotgun cases knowing that they'll make it up on the ones they win <<<
Josh;
Just the opposite is true. An attorney on contingency is putting out his own money to investigate the circumstances, pay the filing fees and other costs of litigation. A complicated case may require the advancing of costs into six figures. As soon as the lawyer determines the case has no merit it is dropped.
A contingency fee lawyer wants two things, clear liability and deep pockets on the other side. He may sign up a lot of clients looking for the big case, and get a lot of small settlements where the facts are not clear but there is some indication that the defendant is at fault, but will not press a sure loser.
Tom
That would remove an important incentive for companies and individuals to avoid placing people at risk. There's too much negligence as it is--just look at those redbird doors or those narrow express platforms.
The problem isn't with the existence of personal injury lawsuits, the problem is that too frequently they're too easy to win, judgments are excessive, and the threat of a lawsuit itself becomes a weapon with which to extort money. In New York the corrupt state legislature has prevented the sort of reforms that other states have adopted to reduce judgments to reasonable levels. We should eliminate jury trials for this sort of suit, limit payments to actual damages, set a high threshhold of negligence, and adopt a loser pays system with the caveat that the loser's responsibility would be no higher than his own legal fees (so that losers don't have to pay the exhorbitant contingency fees charged by ambulance chasers).
Sometime in the late 1970s I discussed the dragging problem with a TA attorney who was a neighbor of mine. I asked him why the doors did not have sensors, like those on elevators, to detect when there was someone caught in the doors. He told me that the TA had rejected that option because no train would ever leave the station if the doors reopened every time someone got caught in them. He also told me that the TA had recently replaced the door motors with more powerfull motors so that the doors could close despite someone standing between them.
While I don't know whether the attorney, who spent his time defending tort cases brought against the TA, knew what he was talking about, I found the TA's callous attitude, as reflected in his remarks, so disturbing that I still remember the conversation.
Would you care to comment on the accuracy or inaccuracy of what I was told? Or on the feasibility, today, of building an idiot-proof door system for a subway car?
Or on the feasibility, today, of building an idiot-proof door system for a subway car?
Even if they do, someone will just develop a smarter idiot :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For smarter idiots, consult the Wise Men of Chelm.
Is the law still in effect that required the New York Central to have a flagman mounted on horseback to precede their freight trains, no doubt small ones, when running on the streets in Manhattan? Must not have applied in other areas as I don't remember such when the South Brooklyn ran on Mc Donald Ave.
Is the law still in effect that required the New York Central to have a flagman mounted on horseback to precede their freight trains, no doubt small ones, when running on the streets in Manhattan?
I cannot find my copy of S 318 of the NYS Highway Law. From memory, it stated a requirement for a flagman preceeding the train at a certain distance. The NYC chose to place the flagman on horseback. However, I do not know for certain that this was the operative statute for this requirement in the NYC case.
Must not have applied in other areas as I don't remember such when the South Brooklyn ran on Mc Donald Ave.
There was indeed a flagman the one time I rode on the original Culver Line (a fan trip in 1975). We also collected a police escort because somebody reported that a train had fallen from the El.
I've had a chance to visit my local public library. Let me offer a partial retraction.
The statute in question was S 317 of the NYS Highway Law (Traction engines on highways) not S 318 as stated. It did not apply when the the machinery was upon railroad tracks. This section was repealed in 1984 effective Feb 21 1984. The current Section 317 (Drug free school zone signs) was passed in 1996.
as well as the one that requires a person to walk ahead of an automobile to warn the horses away;
You will no doubt be pleased (or saddened) that Section 318 of the NYS Highway Law was repealed about a decade ago. However, the case law had
exempted automobiles when they were declared a pleasure carriage by Chapter 531 of the General Laws of 1901.
Repealed S 317. Traction engines on highways
The owner of a steam roller, steam traction engine, any other machinery propelled or driven by steam, or of any gasoline driven traction engine, his servant or agent, shall not allow, permit or use the same, to pass over, through or upon any public highway or street except upon railroad tracks, unless such owner or his agents or servant shall send befor the same a person of mature age, at least one-eighth of a mile in advance, who shall notify and warn persons traveling and using such highway or street with horses or other domestic animals, of the approach thereof, and at night such person shall carry a red light, except in incorporated villages and cities.
Derivation. Highway Law of 1909 c 30 s 329, amended 1914., Highway Law of 1908 c 568 s 155, Highway Law of 1890 amended 1901, L 1866 c 269 ss 1 3.
Case Law.
1. Automobiles
Section 155 of Highway Law of 1890 has no application to an automobile, however crude its construction. Nason v. West 1900
N.B. McKinney's does not reprint its NYS Law Volumes each year. The current volume for Highway Law still contains this section. McKinney's DOES print an annual supplement that fits into the book jacket. The reader must consult both to determine the current statutes.
I trust that the case law citation clarifies its applicability to automobiles to your satisfaction.
3880-3881
3936-3937
3892-3893
In Fresh Pond Yd. today, some signed up as A, others C. Anyone know where the other 2 operational R-32 GEs are hiding?
3934-5 is up at 207th Street yard, NOT operational, having been picked over by the Parts Vultures. I'm not sure where 3594-5 is; could be out at Pitkin-Yard or up at 207th Street. I would guess it's not out on the road.
wayne
My question for the night is WHY are they there?
06/29/2000
My guess is that since they are the GE overhauled R-32's with the non functioning air conditioning, they are probably being mothballed. Since the AC don't work and parts are unavailable to repair and replacement is cost prohibitive, maybe the 207th St yard needs extra track space for motballed redbirds.
It seems the TA is cleaning out junk and freeing up track space for stored Redbirds in case if the R-142/A lays an egg.
Bill "Newkirk"
Or it might be that if for some reason they had to put them in service during the summer, doing it on the M -- a line that runs mostly outdoors -- is considered better than keeping them on an all-underground line like the C.
R32 GE cars are not used during the summer, so they might be just hanging out there until the summer ends.
No, they're gone (by Thurs. afternoon)
The train left sometime Tuesday night.It was delivering supplies. I spotted the train on the express track between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Ave. There was a conductor assigned to this train. Maybe there was a G.O. in the vicinity.
Just a thought but if you want to store cars and hope to keep them from being stripped, you put them in a place where the parts are not usable on the resident fleet.
07/01/2000
[Just a thought but if you want to store cars and hope to keep them from being stripped, you put them in a place where the parts are not usable on the resident fleet]
Remember back in the 70's when the GE R-16's were mothballed at Fresh Pond? You couldn't miss them with their sunbleached roofs.
Bill "Newkirk"
[from MSNBC.com: ..officers will be on every subway platform
along the No. 7 line ...and any train Rocker boards
will become an express..]
whatif you absolutely, positively, bottom dollarly,
end-of-the-worldishly, NEED to get off at
69th Street and the redbird goes a'flyin by
thanks to mr rocker???
The same thing that is told to the passengers every time a train suddenly becomes an express:Transfer to a local in the opposite direction at the first station stop.
Approx. 4:45 PM:
Apparently an uptown express was stalled at 59th (no reason given), so my uptown #6 crawled along and was held for 3 minutes at every station while non-existent expresses were diverted to the local track. THEN, somebody pulled the cord as my train arrived at 42nd, leaving 5 cars in the tunnel.
Does anybody know what happened to start that mess?
My initial theory is that the Straphangers Campaign might be at it again - sabotaging the rush hour in order to complain about lousy service and late trains. If a few more incidents like that happen in quick succession, followed by a Straphangers news conference, we'll know for sure.
Yes a Uptown No.5 Express train went Brakes In Emergency around 59 St. I was going Northbound leaving 59 St on the Uptown No.6 Local at that time. The BIE started about 4:30PM and cleared at 5:15PM. During this time No.4,5 trains where sent up the Local Track from Grand Central to 125 St.
Last night on the Canarsie Line I was able to view inside the T/O's cab as the door was ajar. I noticed some black magic-markered inscription on the frame near the window that read "Long Brakes! Rookies Beware! #4856".
Once we got to Rockaway Parkway I asked the T/O if that was a gag to scare the "newbies". He said no, the scribling was indeed accurate -- the braking on that particular car leaves alot to be desired.
Interesting -- too bad I didn't have my camera with me.
Maybe other cars with similar or other defects also have "cab graffiti warnings." Anyone else find these "notes" among the crew?
Doug aka BMTman
On the 1/9, many times I have seen in magic marker which stops the 1 makes and which the 9 makes above the window, or by the controller(also, someone keeps adding a 'y' to the 'horn' sticker). On R-46s, helpful additional sign codes are markered in under the reference table provided. I also saw on an R-38 'I did 59 thru Cranberry on (some date)'.
"No Ashes Please"
r36 cab on the 7 line
Back in the 60's, this seemed to be a very common practice on all the buses at NYCTA/MABSTOA. One driver explained that if it was written on the wall above the driver seat, at least the next driver knew what to expect!
Operators on BTC's PCC's used to mark the back of the front signs in pencil as to what the destination was: CAT for Catonsville, TOW For Towson, GO for Govanstown and my personal favorite HOME for York Road Car House.
The only other way to set the sign is to turn off the half of the car lights that has the sign lights on it, so you could read the back of the sign.
>>>Back in the 60's, this seemed to be a very common practice on all the buses at NYCTA/MABSTOA. One driver explained that if it was written on the wall above the driver seat, at least the next driver knew what to expect<<<
It still is common pratice in the Bronx. On many busses, particularly those from Gun Hill, NO SMOKING signs are neatly written in magic marker replacing the usual decal.
Peace,
ANDEE
It would appear that some of the garages are more concerned with "making service" then sending out a bus free of defects ? Hopefully none of the defects are "safety senstive" !
Mr t__:^)
Hmm... on a R40 on the Q Line, I've seen 3 messages. One with magic markered words that read "Please take trash with you." I also saw "Please leave trash in car." And the most hilarious, this wasn't magic marker but it was scratched out. In the cab there is a button labeled "By-Pass Switch," Some one scratched out a few letters and it read "____ass __itch." Hmm... I make the most constructive posts eh?
Whew. Just reformated. Cookies Lost. Forgot to type E-Mail.
[In the cab there is a button labeled "By-Pass Switch," Some one scratched out a few letters and it read "____ass __itch." Hmm... I make the most constructive posts eh?]
Very funny!
Wouldn't it be a hoot if someone were to try and get to read all the "subway cab graffiti" compile them and put it out as a book? It'd sell like hotcakes! (at least to the railfan crowd).
Doug aka BMTman
Some of the best ones I remember seeing were in the signage on board the buses of San Francisco Municpal Railway years ago. They still have signs that say "The is no limit to the number of seeing eye dogs on Muni vehicles" -- and of course, everyone removes the "seeing eye" portion of the decal.
Then the decals which admonished people to "Reserve these seats for elderly and handicapped" lost a few letters -- "..serve these .eats"
And on the Gilligs where I drive, there's a decal under the dash that says "Driver Heater" -- most have somehow lost the "H".
In Philadelphia, the PCC's came with electric fare regesters that were replaced with fareboxes in the 1950's. The register was controlled by two switches on the gang switch. When the regesters were removed, the gang switch got a new label plate with blanks where the now unused switches were. In the 60's many cars were spotted with carefully scratched lettering over the formerly blank spaces that read "Smoke Screen" and "Ejection Seat"
Ass itch? Time to get the emergency bra!
LOL!
That was probably conceived by a bored train operator who had to wait 3 hours to get into CIYD!!!!!!
Sure. Another CI R42 overhaul car with its' horribly undependable NY Air Brake system. Just one of the 110 (4840-4949) sh**cans of the Eastern Division.
Oops. I guess they'll be up for eventual scrapping.
-Stef
06/30/2000
[Oops. I guess they'll be up for eventual scrapping.
-Stef ]
From what has been posted here, those Coney Island overhauled R-42's will go before the M & K overhauled ones.
Bill "Newkirk"
several weeks ago, avid reader brought up the problem of wet seats on the A train especially on his return trip to his villa in queens... is that still a problem?... i ask, because it might be an opportunity for some of the squeegee people who have been hounded off the streets, to offer a needed service to new yorkers... if they still have their squeegees, they could work the A line and offer to wipe down the seats and help provide customers with a clean dry seat for the trip back to their country estates...
Since the pos, the seats have been clean and dry. Kudos to the car wash crew and seat wiper-uppers.
I had also pitched a bitch about deep puddling at the Woodhaven/Slattery Plaza entrance 6-A-m. The drains appear to have been Rotorooted . The puddling problem is gone. I just hope the riders that discard cigarette , gum and other small trash items realize they are the cause of the puddling.
Kudos to all involved in correcting these annoyances.
My personal thanks
avid
I thought I recalled seeing a Blue Stripe on the r42/44/46 cars, and the pictures on this site confirmed it. Why did the TA get rid of the blue stripe on these trains?
le$$ paint.
avid
Also, during the days of the great garffiti problems the blue stripe was coming off along with the spray paint, so the decision was to just stop painting it back on, though the R-44 does get silver paint over its former blue stripe, supposedly as a rust preventative.
That's because on the R-44, the strip area is made of steel instead of stainless steel; I'm not sure if they did that because paint sticks better to steel, or just to save a few bucks per car. On some R-44's, you can see rust streaks and bubbles in the silver paint.
Because with the exception of the R44, all the paint was on stainless steel, a material that needs no painting. Why pay to paint something that doesn't need it, when those resources ($$$ and manpower) could be better utilized elsewhere. A rare example of a smart decision by the Transit Authority.
Also note that some MU equipment that had blue stripes on the LIRR now lack it, except for a yellow visibility stripe on the front of the MUs.
-Hank
Understood... but what happened to the painted stripe that was there in the first place? Did they strip it? I do remember LIRR cars also having it...
It was stripped off the R-46s. You'd never guess the stripe was there.
Actually, those blue stripes on LIRR and NYCTA equipment was not painted on. It was self-adhesive 3M reflective panels. I noticed this when driving on LI in the early 1980's, the panels would reflect when car headlamps shone onto the train sides. On the LIRR push-pull stock, it was painted; I guess they figured it would be cheaper. However, one trainset was done around 1980 (the experimental p.a. system train set, engine 266 with five 2800 cars and power pack 620) with the reflective self-adhesive panels.
In the grafitti era, the taggings could easily be removed from the bare metal, but the solvents used to remove such taggings would "bleach" the color right out of the reflective panels and it looked awful.
I meant to be a little more specific -- on the R40/42/44/46's, it was reflective panels. On all the painted NYCTA cars, the blue stripe was merely painted.
40 slopes did no t hav them
Both the Slant 40s and their cousins, the R-40Ms did have a narrow blue stripe painted into the slot that runs along the side of the cars just below the window line.
As did the R-38.
Did the R-38s have a two-tone blue and orange stripe? I know the TA logo on the cars was in blue and orange, and I seem to remember the little line was also more than one color, but I could be wrong.
If I'm not mistaken, the R-38 originally had a thin, light blue stripe running along the side of the car.
That's correct. They had a light blue stripe, very similar to the shade of blue that was on the carbody of the R33/36WF's when delivered.
And that stripe went all the way around the car at the belt rail, much the same as the racing stripe on the R-10s when they had the teal and white paint scheme. However, the R-38 stripe was narrower.
07/01/2000
This is how the stripes were:
R-38's .....Thin light blue pin stripe in the center of the sides.
R-40 Slant..Blue strip in the sculped center of the sides.
R-40 Mod....Broad stripe on the lower 1/3 on the fluted stainless.
R-42........Same as above
R-44........Blue stripe on steel portion on lower 1/3
R-46........Blue stripe on stainless steel portion of lower 1/3
R-62/62A....No stripes
R-68/68A....No stripes
R-110A/B....No stripes
Bill "Newkirk"
This was as delivered,
When did the R-40M have the thin stripe? Any photos I've seen (and my own memory, as well) would indicate that the R-40M had the fat blue stripe (and the lighter blue vertical stripe around the T/O window) as on the R-42 cars.
Because the R-40Ms were simply the R-40s with the modified front ends, the sides of the cars didn't (and still don't) have the same wide-pleated area below haflway between the windows and the floor of the car where the blue stripe was painted. They have the narrow groove located higher up towards the window line, which is where the paint job went when the first arrived.
Metro-North equipment still has its blue and red stripes and since 1996 they've been painting the cab ends of the MUs blue (Hudson and Harlem) or red (New Haven). If it costs so much to paint stainless steel, why does MN continue to do so.
The side stripes aren't painted -- they are self-adhesive "tape". It applies very easily.
The ends are fiberglass moldings, believe it or not. Very easily paintable.
All cars are fiberglass ends since r38 have them (38s dont)
some Lirr M3s and M1s still have stripes and all Mnrr mus have them
07/01/2000
[some Lirr M3s and M1s still have stripes and all Mnrr mus have ]
Metro North seems to be retaining the blue stripes, the LIRR has eliminated them with car overhauls. Since the car overhauls have stopped, there are some MU's with the stripes. I guess the stoppage of overhauls reflects the coming of the M-7's
Bill "Newkirk"
MNCR ConnDOT cars have red stripes.
Speaking of, I saw a ConnDOT SPV at Washington Union Station during the engine change on Thursday night. It was attached to a MARC train.
-Hank
Hmmmm... An SPV down in Washington. I wonder why it was there. I saw another SPV on the back of an Amtrak train in New Haven. But when that train left for Boston, the SPV was gone.
Mid 1970's I rode Amtrak from Philly to Newark; the train had a pre-SPV Budd car on the end; I assumed it uncoupled at New Haven and went to Springfield.
[the train had a pre-SPV Budd car on the end]
On second thought, it might have been an SPV. The memory is getting a little cloudy with age.
My guess would be that it's there for it's capabilities as a cab-car for push-pull operation. The SPV ws on what would be the north end of the train. I'll see what's there on Thursday morning, I'm taking 98 back Wednesday night.
-Hank
07/02/2000
[Speaking of, I saw a ConnDOT SPV at Washington Union Station during the engine change on Thursday night. It was attached to a MARC train.]
Maybe Amtrak was borrowing equipment from Shoreline East. They do that usually on holidays when extra equipment is warranted. Look for MARC equipment on Amtrak consists around Thanksgiving.
Bill "Newkirk"
[Look for MARC equipment on Amtrak consists around Thanksgiving.]
In 1998 and 1999 at Frankford Junction I saw MARC, ConnDot, and NJT equipment on Amtrak the Sunday after Thanksgiving.
Personally, I disagree with the policy of conformity in the look of subway cars. I like the idea that the railcars on the 3 divisions of Metro-North have individualized styles (It's curious that the same cars at the LIRR do not have the same stylized look, nor do they perform as well). I also think that the costs are easily offset by performance improvements that come from increased pride from the workers. This became evident when some R-68 cars had their threshhold plates painted red. The original purpose not withstanding, the result was that Concourse cars were immediately identifiable to the public and to the workers. The maintainers and even the cleaners have responded by working smarter to produce a better product. It's akin to their signature. (The department of busses also has the maintenance depot logo displayed on each bus)We've been kicking around the idea of amillenium paint scheme for the R-68s. I don't know if it will be permitted by the powers that be but we intend to either submit a proposal in terms of computer generated artwork or actually doing one car (2592).
BTW: If anyone is graphically inclined and wants to send me their idea(s), I'll be happy to have the concept considered - with all due credit given.
IMHO, the subway shops should follow the lead of the bus division and have a unique logo identifying the shop affixed to each car, or a sign inside the car noting "This Car Maintained By The 207th Street Shop" (with the appropriate shop name). I think it's great that the bus division does this. I doubt worker morale in any enterprise has ever gone down when the workforce is allowed to put their own stamp on the product or service that they provide.
- Jim (RailBus)
No argument here. In fact at one time the plan was to have the actual inspection team place a put their names in the car Such as inspected at 207th St team #3 with the 3 inspector's names.
I had heard a similar rumor a long time ago that the TA was going to order the Train Operators badges and nameplates, the same reason to identify token booth attendants. Glad that didn't come about.
Yeah, sure wouldn't want to be identified so you could be held responsible for your actions, would you?
-Hank
Numbered badges would be a good idea. This would allow identification of a T/O without the need to identify them directly by name to the public (given the wackos out there, unfortunately, who would find it all too easy to track someone down personally that way). Number identification would allow for a "customer" (I still hate that term in this context) to identify an employee to management in a positive or negative way, as necessary and appropriate. (And yes, I know some of the reports will be inappropriate too, but I respectfully submit that those are probably a greater percentage of complaints now, simply because people with an axe to grind will usually take the trouble to dig for identifying information anyway, be it by train and/or car number, time, etc.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Instead of a millenium paint scheme why not some kind of "wrap" for the upcoming subway 100th anniversary?
Peace,
ANDEE
A rose by any other name..........
No wraps!! I like to look out the window on the subway (or bus). I do not pay $3 for an express bus to have to look thru little tiny holes on my way home! I enjoy red, orange, and blue skies at night while the sun is setting over Jamaica Bay, and watching the sky contrast with the water while going over the East River in the evening. I do not enjoy the various shades of grey that come out of a sunset thru a wrap! I cannot see out a wrapped window without my glasses on, so I'm screwed if they break or get lost during the day! And while using my fingernails and screwdriver to peel enough of a hole to see out of is a good way to pass the time, doing so on a subway car would be too difficult and time consuming. Now, if they didn't cover the windows, I'd be all for it.
The unWrapper
Henry R32 #3730
07/03/2000
Nah! A commemerative logo next to the MTA logo would do just fine.
Bill "Newkirk"
Because the blue stripe looked good
It was pointless, and totally uneccesary. The only stainless car that needed it was the R44.
-Hank
Are you sure that the R42 had the stripe? It seems to me that R42s have a corrugated lower half much like R38s.
-Daniel
The R-42's had the blue stripe applied ON TOP of the corrugations
The R42s had a fat stripe between the window sills and the
corrugated siding. The R40s also had a blue stripe in the same
area, but much thinner. Both were lost during GOH.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000621/us/train_derailment_kk4.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000621/us/train_derailment_iog.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000621/us/train_derailment.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000621/us/train_derailment_4p9.html
The other day a supervisor (plain clothes, radio, vest in back pocket) got on the front of the SB C train at Chambers, and motioned for the TO to leave the cab. He then ran the train to Jay street, where he got off. I've also seen supervisors run trains out on the F, and get off at Jay.
Is this a perk of being a supervisor? After sitting in a tower all day I bet it would be a "kick" to run your train home.
Dave
Several years ago a train operator on franklin shuttle reported long brakes. A supervisor was sent to check out the train and promptely crashed it into the bumping blocks. He got out and said yup the train has long brakes
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000621/us/train_derailment_3sj.html
In today's NY Times:
"Residents Say Trolley Line Is Nuisance, Not Nostalgia"
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/nj-train.html
I heard a report on this from WINS NEWS last night.
Those NIMBY's are making mountains out of mohills. They act like the streetcars are on par with the decibel level of the SST if you were to believe them.
Doug aka BMTman
If it's only six blocks, the proper response is to condemn the properties, buy the people out, and turn Essex St into a commercial area. That's my solution for the N to Astoria NIMBYs. Buy them out.
how much did the value of there home go up? and why is there some new building in that area?
Well just as I was reading your message my power went out for one minute! Thanks to NIMBY's of course. Tree branch caught on a transformer, heard on the scanner.
Same thing happened last night at 2am. I sure lose power alot, over 10 times in past two years.
It's all thanks to "tree hugging" NIMBY's who don't want their trees trimmed or cut, so they are all around power lines.
Just another day in the preservationist psycho community of Sea Cliff.
I know this is off the topic of transit issues, but I really do take offense to calling my good friends in Sea Cliff who belong to the Landmark Committee as being "preservationist psycho community." Would you call the late Jackie Onassis a "pyscho preservationist" for all the work she has done in the name of landmark preservation? Maybe you were happy when they tore down the old Penn Station and replaced it with the current structure. I think you really need to visit Great Neck's Old Village section to see first hand the destruction of old homes in old neighborhoods with huge behemoths on small plots. Everyone that I know who has visited Sea Cliff for the first time has always had positive responses about the community.
They are obstructionist lunatics whose dreams have to be smashed by the big 3 of prosperity, Big Business, Big Labor, and Big Government Architectural perservationists get Z*E*R*O sympathy from me and mortgage slaves who only care about their blessed property values are simply idiots who made a very bad economic decision i.e. buying a house with the expectation of getting more than a TINY fraction of what they paid back out. Between mortgage interest, property taxes, having the furnace break down in the middle of the night and all of the other unpleasent surprises that await the poor person who listens to the con man (Real estate salesman) as well as opportunity cost (money that could have been earned in a sensible investment) that $250.000 house can easily cost well over a million dollars over 30 yrs. THINK BEFORE YOU BUY AND IF YOU STILL WANT A HOUSE, FINE BUT DO NOT BUY A HOUSE FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, YOU'LL BE SORRY
(THINK BEFORE YOU BUY AND IF YOU STILL WANT A HOUSE, FINE BUT DO NOT BUY A HOUSE FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, YOU'LL BE SORRY)
Even if I didn't already know it, I'd have to say you live in Upstate New York.
The one good economic reason to buy a house is that it locks in part of your housing cost. I don't have to worry that the price of housing has gone bonkers in my Brooklyn neighborhood.
That said, those who bought houses at the 1987 peak got clobbered. Those who buy now will probably get clobbered also. And those in Upsate New York have just gotten clobbered, period.
[The one good economic reason to buy a house is that it locks in part of your housing cost. I don't have to worry that the price of housing has gone bonkers in my Brooklyn neighborhood.
That said, those who bought houses at the 1987 peak got clobbered. Those who buy now will probably get clobbered also. And those in Upsate New York have just gotten clobbered, period.]
Tell me about buying at the 1987 (1988, in my case) peak [sigh]. At any rate, the trend toward 15-year instead of 30-year mortgages actually may be taking some of the deflation risk out of buying a house. Significant amortization occurs much sooner with a 15-year. Or it might be more accurate to say that amortization takes forever with a 30-year. After making 12 years of payments on my 30-year mortgage, I've reduced the outstanding balance by less than ten percent.
Depends on a rate.
At 5 % 30y would make sense @10% 15 would be much more favorable.
Arti
>>> DO NOT BUY A HOUSE FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, YOU'LL BE SORRY <<<
When I bought a three bedroom house in 1971 for the price of $31,000.00 the payments plus taxes plus insurance seemed like a lot more than the $125.00 per month I was paying for my one bedroom apartment at the time.
It's true I recouped some of the cost from tax deductions for interest paid, but it still seemed steep.
Now with my monthly payments still at $171.00 (but dropping to $0.00 next year), and having received offers of $175,000.00 for the house, I think it has been a good economic investment despite having to replace the roof twice, rewire the house, and replace the plumbing (built in 1922), I think I'm ahead of those who continued to rent, and I am not sorry I bought the house.
Tom
That was then, this is now, deflation, the shrinking population in the northeast and the vanishing middle class will all work to drive down the value of residential real estate, particularily in near suburbs (those closest to cities)
John;
The "real" in real estate connotes that this is the place where everything else gets its value from. It is not a short term type of investment, but something that will have value over the long term. Neither of us can predict 30-40 years into the future, but it is probable that residential real estate in established areas will retain its value and more than offset the general inflation rate.
Tom
[That was then, this is now, deflation, the shrinking population in the northeast and the vanishing middle class will all work to drive down the value of residential real estate, particularily in near
suburbs (those closest to cities)]
I'm sure you've heard the old joke, that the three most important things when it comes to buying a house are location, location and location. It may be a corny old joke but it's completely true. Many homebuyers make the mistake of researching houses but not neighborhoods. I know, it's not always possible to predict what an area will be like in 20 or 30 years, but that doesn't mean that anyone should blunder into a decision without careful research.
If you hate your beautiful, tree lined community, then move to the horrible, 100% concrete south shore you love so much.
I wonder why these rich people didn't propose burying wires.
"I wonder why these rich people didn't propose burying wires."
LIPA has no plans to bury electric wires because of cost and maintainance. Besides I don't think ConEd is doing to well with it's underground feeders either. I heard on the news there was a blackout in Jackson heights and East Elmhurst too.
I can't entirely fault trees either, old, unreliable equipment can also be to blame for alot of power outages.
Speaking from experience (Hurricane Fran in North Carolina, 1996): where possible, utility lines should be buried. The disruption from power loss was by far the most serious impact of the storm. There were very few breaks in the major high-tension lines in the state, but lines in the neighborhoods and rural areas were devastated. In those areas with buried lines, power was out for less than 12 hours while the major grids were restored, if it was out at all. It took six days to achieve 90% restoration in areas without buried lines; I'm not sure when they declared total restoration, but it was at least a month. Our home is in a rural area; power was restored to the lines on the road after six days, but it took two more days before we had it back because the service entrance was ripped off the side of the house by the storm. However, we had only a two hour disruption in phone service because the lines were buried.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The properties along 31 St. along the Astoria Line aren't worth much, for the most part, especially in Dutch Kills. You find decent business on the corners of the el stops (the stops being why, of course!), but the in-between properties are dumps. My first Astoria apt. was on 29th street, & I heard the N train clearly out my 5th floor window, but, like all the other noise nuisances you find in New York City (those annoying car-alarms come to mind), you get used to it and tune it out. There are very few people of middle-class means who don't have to sacrifice some comforts to live where they live, and not just in New York City. I for one will take the noise of the N train as long as I can continue to enjoy its convenience.
(My first Astoria apt. was on 29th street, & I heard the N train clearly out my 5th floor window.)
A friend lives on a second floor apartment on 30th Street, one block off the N. I asked him if he ever heard the noise of the train. He said he did not.
I believe the nuisance aspect of an elevated railroad only travels about one block. So if the extend the Astoria Line to LaGuardia, I'd favor compensation for residents and residential property owners in the four blocks immediately adjacent to the extension. As for everyone else, they'd be better off with more service and an easy trip to LaGuardia.
[I'd favor compensation for residents and residential property owners in the four blocks immediately adjacent to the extension. As for everyone else, they'd be better off with more service and an easy trip to LaGuardia.]
I don't know if the plan is to build any new neighborhood stops on the extension, but another form of compensation which might be considered is the fact that the residents along the extension route may benefit from new subway service!! From what I've heard, parking availability in northern Astoria is just as atrocious as everywhere else in the neighborhood. If I lived way up there, I'd be glad to have the subway extend near me! And who says it has to continue to be an elevated structure? Why not continue it as a true subway? On the other hand, one of the proposals called for splitting the line off at Queensboro Plaza and using Sunnyside yard as the right-of-way to minimize the residential disturbances. Another called for splitting the line off at Astoria Blvd. and running it down the median of the Grand Central Pkwy. (wouldn't *that* make Robert Moses roll over in his grave!). Nothing wrong with these 2 ideas, I suppose, but if you're going to build that much new subway, some of it should serve new customers, and not just travelers to the airport.
There are only two blocks of 31st Street past the Ditmars Boulevard terminal.
(There are only two blocks of 31st Street past the Ditmars Boulevard terminal.)
That's right, it doesn't make sense to try to extend the El as a subway, because by the time it ramped down you'd be in an industrial area. What the neighbors would like is to stop to extension, or get rid of the El altogether and force its replacement by a subway. Not a bad idea, if it wasn't for the money, construction disruption, etc.
Money being unlimited, one option would be a four track line, with the local tying in the G (allowing a stop under Queens Plaza for a wider variety of connections) while the express branched off from the 60th Street tunnel underground. The G would terminate at the airport. The express would run non-stop from Queens Plaza to the airport, then come out the other end and travel onto Flusing and perhaps College Point. But that is number 1,000 on our little list of things to do.
The one place of a new station would be Astoria Heights, but I doubt the neighbors would want it. You'd make them happier by extending a spur over to Rikers Island, then running special jail trains direct from Queensboro Plaza to the jail, so visitors wouldn't have to travel through their community.
Yeah, but I'm talking about the fact that at some point, its gotta turn right and head for the airport. If it did so and then followed Ditmars Blvd. (and I'm looking at a map here -- it's been a long time since I've been in that area to view the actual 'topography') for example, you might want to have stops at Steinway Street, Hazen Street, and, say, 77th Street before reaching the airport, whether its a subway or el. That way people in Steinway would get subway service. Stops along the Grand Central Pkwy. or between Sunnyside yard and the BQE would be nice too I guess, depending on which line you'd build.
(Yeah, but I'm talking about the fact that at some point, its gotta turn right and head for the airport.)
The area along the waterfront is industrial, so the right of way could be separated from housing by a respectable distance. Of course, this assumes that it would be possible to get an easement through the Con Edison property, but I have a scheme for that too. Have Con Ed sell the easment for a dollar -- the money they'd make putting up billboards for the incomming business executives to look at would make it more than work their while.
The only downside of this is that new visitors to our city would be treated to a view of a noisy airport, Rikers Island Jail, the Bowery Bay Sewage Treatment Plant, and a Power Plant on their first ride to the city. But the view of Manhattan from the Astoria El might be enough to make them forget it.
What? These people come from places that don't have these things? I think they should get a taste of reality.
(What? These people come from places that don't have these things? I think they should get a taste of reality.)
Perhaps they could have the line run right over the sewage treatment tanks, so they could get a whiff of reality.
Given my musing about a spur to Rikers to carry prisoners to court (special platforms at Chambers St BMT and in Downtown Brooklyn) I have often imagined a double fare airport special passing the prison special with bars on the windows and a guard at the handle. Now THAT would be reality.
[Given my musing about a spur to Rikers to carry prisoners to court (special platforms at Chambers St BMT and in Downtown Brooklyn) I have often imagined a double fare airport special passing the prison special with bars on the windows and a guard at the handle. Now THAT would be reality.]
One of Ron Ziel's books says that the LIRR once operated special trains with barred windows to transport patients to the mental hospitals on Long Island.
[One of Ron Ziel's books says that the LIRR once operated special trains with barred windows to transport patients to the mental hospitals on Long Island. ]
I guess no other means of transportation. ...would explain the heydays of trains.
Arti
There is a 119 unit, 9 story, 13 year old building at the southwest corner of Essex and Greene. At the current rate of light rail ridership, it may be the turn of the next century before enough revenues are generated to fund a replacement!
(There is a 119 unit, 9 story, 13 year old building at the southwest corner of Essex and Greene. At the current rate of light rail ridership, it may be the turn of the next century before enough revenues are generated to fund a replacement!)
I doubt those above the third story are affected by the noise. Perhaps they could buy out the lower three floors and covert them to stores and offices, which would be empty at night.
Saw this also on the news tonight. The trains looked beautiful. How could anybody oppose such a nice system. Only someone with the disease called NIMBY.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Why don't you try to live with train noise yourself when you're used to quietness?
I hate NIMBYs as much as anyone else, but I'm tired and sick of people blanketing everyone with the slightest legitimate gripe against a public work as a NIMBY.
If you're such a YIMBY (yes in my backyard) I'd love to build a sewage treatment plant, methadone clinic and state prison in your backyard. I'm sure you'd love it.
Increasing noise is a loss of property, people should be compensated somehow. Something must be done in exchange if the project in question does not lead to an improvement in the neighborhood (Essex Street people can walk to Exchange Place).
This may seem like an about-face for me, since I am always decrying NIMBYs. But there's a difference between wanting to live in peace and keeping your investment maintained and outright, illogical opposition.
Of course, for you comrade, all land ownership is vested in the state (people collective, as opposed to people individual), so this is of no consequence to you.
"This may seem like an about-face for me, since I am always decrying NIMBYs. But there's a difference between wanting to live in peace and keeping your investment maintained and outright, illogical opposition."
I agree with your point that not all opposition to public works is NIMBYism. But it seems to me that this case falls on the "illogical opposition" side of the line:
1) Electric streetcars generate much less noise than the trucks and cars that used the street before the line was built and still use it now. But there's no outcry from the neighbors about cars and trucks, only the streetcar line.
2) The speed limit for the streetcars (which are indeed STREET cars at this point on the line) is already set, due to neighbor complaints, significantly below that for motor vehicle operating on the same street. The neighbors propose lowering the speed limit for streetcars to 8mph, while all other vehicles on the same street can go up to 20mph (IIRC).
So how is it "wanting to live in peace" to have a rule where trucks can go down the street at 20mph but streetcars are restricted to 8mph?? Yes, there must be a balance struck between "build it anywhere" Moses-ism and NIMBYism. But this case doesn't even come close to being one of landowners reasonably defending their property against a clear nuisance.
Pigs, old bean, you've picked the wrong test case.
Essex Street isn't a main truck route. Trucks going to exchange place to Liberty State Park (like the LR) would use Columbus Drive, and then turn on Jersey Avenue or thereabouts.
Bring back SLAPP suits, the sure cure for selfish NIMBYS!
What's SLAPP? Is it an abbreviation?
This is the first message for me in almost a week.
http://www.metropla.net/news.htm Please note no mention about 63 street connection or Manhattnan bridge reopening to broadway service. Can this be they dont believe NY Transit when they announce something?
Here is a link u might find interesting
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2000/jun/27/510437143.html
I visited the Pelham entry on imdb.com this morning, and a goof was added which states the signal plate at the "28th St." station identifies the track as A2. The goof goes on to say this is an IND designation. I don't have the track map in front of me, but all we have to do is identify A2 and we should know which station was used for 28th St.
Track A2 exists in two places:
Northbound Fulton local, Euclid Ave to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Court St;
and Northbound 8th Ave local, WTC to 168th St.
Most likely the Transit Museum (Court St.) station was used.
I Agree with you about it being filmed in B division on the Flton street line. If you noticed when Martin Balsam approaches the train at the 28th street stop there is a huge gap between the train and the rubbing boards at the platform edge. my estimate that scene was filmed Nostrand avenue lower level exress track
Actually, it was filmed mostly at the Court Street Station and the tunnels between Court Street and Hoyt-Schemerhorn Stations. (I read it on a website)
I'm almost positive they used Court St. for the "Grand Central" portion. 28th St. is another story. For one thing, in the movie, there is fluorescent lighting in that station. Court St. never had fluorescent lights. I doubt if they would have gone through the hassle of installing fluorescent lighting, only to tear it all out once filming was completed. Come to think of it, the outer platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn don't have fluorescent lighting, either.
That is a most interesting observation. I will pay real close attention the next time I view the flik. (I can't believe I never noticed this in my 10+ viewings)
Peace,
ANDEE
That happens to be Court street station (Transit Museum)
The recent Redbird articles have indicated that the TA plans to retain 150 of them. Is this because it ordered 150 too few R142s to replace the existing fleet? Or will the TA have more cars, and thus be a position to run more trains?
The original R142/A order was never planned to replace all of the Redbirds. That's to be a follow-on order from funds in the 2000-2004 Capital Plan. Read all about it from the MTA Web site.
The MTA 2000-2004 capital plan document makes reference to the development of a new subway car storage yard for the B Division. Anyone know the proposed location of this new yard?
- Jim (RailBus)
Sunnyside, where the Amtrak/LIRR interlocking is now located. It's supposed to connect to both the Astoria and Queens Blvd local lines.
Are they going to build a ramp from the Astoria elevated line to the yard?
LONDON (Reuters) -- London's Millennium Bridge Trust said on Wednesday the new span over the Thames would be closed for months while engineers pinpoint and correct the cause of the violent swaying which shut the bridge after just two days.
A spokeswoman said engineers from builders Arup were about two weeks away from producing a final report on the problem after employing "mechanical and human testing" and consulting professors from Germany, Japan and Denmark.
"When there is an excessive number of people on the bridge, the bridge moves and the people move in response to that," the spokeswoman said.
"The solution is damping, but we don't know what kind, where to put it or how much it will cost yet," she said.
"The dampers have got to be specially designed, so we're talking months before we reopen."
The 320-yard long "blade of light" was the first new bridge across the Thames for a century when it opened on June 10, but it was overcome by the shakes hen about 100,000 people tried to make the crossing between St Paul's Cathedral and the new Tate Modern gallery.
The Millennium Bridge Trust said at the time the bridge would be closed "for weeks" while engineers tried to fathom the problem, the latest in a string of misfortunes to hit British millennial projects.
The Millennium Dome is now being kept afloat by government subsidies, the giant London Eye ferris wheel missed its scheduled opening on January 1 and the "River of Fire" overture to the Millennium night festivities simply failed to ignite.
British engineering at it's best.
Hey,
That bridge was designed, built, and will be repaired in less than half the time it would have taken just to conduct the feasibility study in NYC :-)
Yes but the Manhattan Bridge did last 70 years before the problems started (or were discovered). This one sounds like a variant on the good old Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Gallopin Gertie)!
[That bridge was designed, built, and will be repaired in less than half the time it would have taken just to conduct the feasibility
study in NYC :-)]
That's like bragging that you can outrun a three-legged turtle.
You got us there, Max. NYC is the undisputed king when it comes to dragging out any sort of municipal construction project. But I hear this new Lord Mayor of London is a left-wing wacko, so London may soon join the list of over-taxed inept cities.
(But I hear this new Lord Mayor of London is a
left-wing wacko, so London may soon join the list of over-taxed inept cities.)
Perhaps "Red Ken" will be the answer to our "Red Mike," and advocate a public takeover of the Underground.
Mike Quill, what a statesman. Trouble is we have too many politicians that still think like old Red Mike.
(Mike Quill, what a statesman. Trouble is we have too many politicians that still think like old Red Mike. )
Actually, I was comparing Red Ken Livingstone with Red Mike Hylan. I guess when someone is called Red anything, and likes the name, you usually have a problem. Except perhaps for Red Holtzman.
[I guess when someone is called Red anything, and likes the name, you usually have a problem. Except perhaps for Red Holtzman.]
Or Red Schoendienst, or Red Skelton, or Redd Foxx ...
or Buttons.
[I guess when someone is called Red anything, and likes the name, you usually have a problem. Except perhaps for Red Holtzman.]
Or Red Buttons
Red Ken. Hmmmmm ...
Well, he did the job before, and very well too. I think that Londoners have better memories than Britain's journalists, which is of course why he was voted in as an independent candidate.
The big difference is that Ken uses the Underground every day to get to work. Not many politicians do that.
Let's hope it doesn't become another Galloping Gertie...the Tacoma Narrows bridge that blew down in a storm about 60 years ago!
>>> "When there is an excessive number of people on the bridge, the bridge moves and the people move in response to that," the spokeswoman said. <<<
This brings to mind the old New Yorker cartoon of a Boy Scout leader telling his troop as they start across the George Washington bridge "All right men, break step!"
Tom
Jeez, I haven't heard of such large scale urban renewal projects followed by such repeated/dismal failure since Flint MI.
PS: I had been wondering about that "river of fire" thinggie. I watched it on TV, but I thought I missed it or something. Guess it wasn't my fault after all.
So that's what happened to the river of fire. I was watching on TV, and wondering where it was . . .
But what was it supposed to look like?
Some kind of huge fireworks display moving up the river, but I guess we'll never really know!
Well I shall tell you. I was there on New Years Eve with about four million other prople. I was standing opposite the Houses of Parliament.
When the fireworks were suggested to celebrate the arrival of the new millenium, the organisers decided to moor two barges full of fireworks in between each bridge (eight bridges I believe) and to synchronise the display with about a half second delay between them so that the effect would be like a wave of fire sweeping up the Thames. The only problem is that you would need to be at about 300 metres or so in the air to gain the effect. Needless to say the press gave the whole thing much too much hype with the "Wall of Fire" publicity which brought out some four million people who waited for hours to see or not to see the wall of fire.
It was a great night the fireworks lasted about twenty minutes and were magnificent and I got home in time to send greetings to my subtalk friends being some five hours ahead. Perhaps one occasion where we did get there first :)
Simon
Swindon UK
[Perhaps one occasion where we did get there first :)]
That, and GMT. Talk about little conveniences--that alone justifies the trouble it took to amass an empire!
Who is this John Rocker person?
Trevor
No, no.. Who was Jim Neidhart.
John Rocker is really just a snippet
of anyone named John Rockerfeller.
What rock have you been hiding under? John Rocker is the atlanta braves relief pitcher ... read This Article and you'll get the picture...
OH THAT BASTARD!
Trevor
Ding! Ding! Ding!
07/06/2000
I think this Rocker subject has ran it's course!
Bill "Newkirk"
Who even gives a $#!t who John Rocker is?
.
Has anyone out there read Dave Frattini s book the Underground Guide to NYC Subways? I just did, He does a line by line station by station critique on the subway, station decor, cleanliness, sfety, the surrounding neighborhoods, nearby points of interest and resturaunts. Check out your home station. Quite good. For a transplanted New Yorker in Northern Calif
That book was reviewed here a number of weeks back.
From a historical standpoint - LOTS of errors (I counted at least a dozen). Example: On page 2, he states the first subway rolled out of City Hall at 9AM onn 10/27/1904 for the Inaugural run. We all know that it the ceremonies were delayed so the first train with Mayor McClellan left at 2:37 PM.
Another example: On Pages 215 & 216 he has the N train going over the Queensboro Bridge.
As for his critques of the stations - so, so.
I have to tell you that the book is not exactly flying off the shelves at Barnes & Noble or at Border's.
I gave it a rating of B (for borrow from someone - don't buy).
>>>I have to tell you that the book is not exactly flying off the shelves at Barnes & Noble or at
Border's. <<
To be fair, subway and transit books are never #5 with a bullet on the NY Times Bestseller List...
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, but this one's #999,999,999 and dropping :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Basically it is for the visitor, not a rail fan who gets picky on a time delay 96 years ago, and remember it was written in California, Right Fred
No excuse for not getting it right. Especially with resources available like nycsubway.org and the various books that have been written over the years.
- Jim
Good show Jim. But remember Bob and I like to have friendly exchanges. I would be tiffed, however, if I came to New York for a trip and got the wrong guide, or the guide contained false info. There is no excuse for that.
I would say the guide is 99.8 pct accurate, it was written before the B-C Switch and the reopening of the Franklin. He was wrong on some dates, but not on what train goes where and when.
See my review at
http://rapidtransit.com:80/net/book/reviews/frat_cap.htm
www.forgotten-ny.com
I read a article once about the light in between the tracks. The lights are between the two tracks, in the station. Anyone know why this is? Also, I assume the stations are so big and deep because they double up as bomb shelters.
So the lights are not in vandals view.
As for the depth and size having to do with bomb shelters, I have two words: TOTAL BULL.
The WMATA found that the arch design would not be more expensive than uglier, more claustrophobic flat roofs.
Not the whole subway is deep, where it is, it's because deep bore is less disruptive during construction.
Deep tunnel is also better for the DC subway because of the topography. Washington is far more hilly than any part of NYC save for Washington Heights/Upper Bronx and Staten Island. Deep bore tunnels allow the trains to maintain a relatively level track along much of the right-of-way, instead of rising and falling to stay close to the surface level (The Red Line to Shady Grove would have been a major pain to run near the surface coming out of Farragut North)
IIRC, the part of the Red Line from Farragut North to Union Station was built by means of cut and cover.
It was cut-and-cover right up to Dupont Circle. I remember the wooden planks right up past N St. The Blue/Orange from Stadium/Armory to Foggy Bottom is c&c as is the Green/Yellow from the river to Georgia Avenue-Petworth. What is distinctive is that the river tunnels were floated down to the surface and are not necessarily below ground under water.
I think they sank the Green Line tunnels into the Anacostia river bed (they were delivered in eight sections). Anacostia station itself is an oddity - it appears to be underground, but look closely - it is actually in a covered cut. Lift the building above it away and you will see what I mean. Also you can see daylight at either end near the exits.
Congress Heights station, set to open on either January 13th or March 17th of 2001, is a true underground station, with a perfectly round, six-coffered arch, like Mt.Vernon Square or Georgia Avenue-Petworth, and an island platform.
wayne
Float-and-drop tunnels apparently are as old as the subway itself -- I believe that's the way they built the IRT tunnel for the No. 2 train beneath the Harlem River. Don't know if it was just designed to rest on the riverbed surface, but after 96 years, it's probably pretty well silted in if it was done that way.
The bomb shelter thing is an old wives' tale dating to the 1980s, before the end of the cold war.
The light between the tracks serves to light the station. It only occurs at stations that have two bay (side) platforms. Bay platform stations don't have pylons with lights in their heads - the island platform stations (and the upper levels of Pentagon and Rosslyn) DO.
wayne
Try the 50s not the 80s. The Metro was started in the 70s
Today like around 1:30PM I was catching a southbound #'1' train at 168 Street instead the train was signed up as a #'9'on all 10 cars and the conductor said "this is the #'9' train to South Ferry making all local stops". Now could somebody tell me why did the #'9' train was running around that time I thought it only runs during rush hours?
We live.
1 SouthFerry 9
Sounds like they didn't have time to change the signs at VC. If it had been about an hour later, it really was a 9 making all stops SB and 9 skip-stops NB.
If you never noticed in the locomotives/work car section of our subway car pictures I notice that PUMP CAR PC02 was stain steeless. My question is that the car looks kind of a R62/62A body. Does anybody know if this car happens to have comunication with the R62's?
The pump cars were made from R-62(a?) bodies.
06/29/2000
[The pump cars were made from R-62(a?) bodies.]
To be exact, two surplus R-62A bodies. They of course were never R-62A's.
Bill "Newkirk"
I spoke with a deck hand on the American legion today"
a new boat is coming in two years, a second new boat two two yeasr after that and the third new boat two years after the second new boat.
They will be car boats and have four decks with two elevators.
They better have nice, big open end areas for tourists and boatfans (not like the Barberi and the Samuel I. Newhouse.) Hope they pick better initials than the S.I.N. (changed to just plain N). The J.F.K. better be the last replaced (just repainted), while AL will probably be the first (side has more black than yellow). I just hope these new boats handle just as good as the Kennedy class, I love the look on the tourists faces when the boat slams into the wood and produces that loud squeal.
Really -- that docking "technique" is rather startling to those who don't understand it.
I always thought that ferryboats were SUPPOSED to do that -- and riding on all the different routes of the Washington State Ferries, around Puget Sound, none of them ever seemto do it. It's like the ferry ride is missing something, just smoothly coasting into the slip and making a nice smooth stop!
Of course, one about every five years, someone screws up and SLAMS into a slip up there, causing major damage usually to the slip. It happened last year, the "Sealth" on the Bremerton-Seattle run 'decided' to stop a few feet east of its usual spot in Seattle, putting one slip out of commission for a couple months!
The Kennedy boats have a conventional rudder and propeller. The Newhouse, Barberi, Noble, and Austen have a Voight-Schnieder system, which varies the pitch of a vane for much more precise control. THese boats rarely run the boards.
-Hank
The Noble and Austen rarely run! I've never even seen the latter! When do they use these two?
The Noble and Austen rarely run! I've never even seen the latter! When do they use these two?
Non rush hours and late night.
The Noble and Austen are the small passenger boats, right?
I've been on one or both of them a couple times. This was during the time when auto service was suspended a few years ago (what was the reason for that, anyway? I remember a fire at the Manhattan terminal, was that the reason?) Even during the suspension, the Kennedy boats would run regularly.
Before the suspension, I remember on weekends, one car boat and one small passenger boat would run. Now, I think they run two car boats on weekends.
The Noble and Austen are the small passenger boats, right?
The Austen Class boats hold 1500 passengers, the Kennedy Class hold 3500 plus 45 cars and the Barberi Class holds 6600 passengers.
The Noble and Austen - how old are these boats? Are they left over from an older class or are they a new more modern and efficient type?
Where are the Ferries when they are simply out of service? I know there are not enough slips to keep them at the dock. So where do they go when not in use?
Those boats were purchased in the 80s with the intention of eliminating 1/2 of the car service. The boats have a smaller capacity then the rest of the fleet, and thus require less staff, and less fuel, so the city could save the bucks.
When OOS, the boats either sit in the St. George slips, or dock at the adjacent maintainence facility.
-Hank
Hank, is there a good spot for photos? I was on the Ferry last week and could have gotten shots of say - two of the Ferries in the slips but not all. Is there a better vantage point for photos?
Is there any access to the maintenance facility?
Back in the 1980's, I was able to walk onto the deck of the next pier south from the SI Ferries maintenance pier while the "American Legion" was having body work done from its encounter with the seawall at Battery Park. I don't know if that location would still be accessible, as it's been over 15 years.
That pier is G-O-N-E. The maintainence facility is now on the old USCG base, next to the terminal. Best place for photos NOT on the boat would probably be the bus ramp at St. George. The ramp runs along the roof of the terminal, but the motor rooms for the slips block some of the view.
-Hank
They run late nights, and early mornings. Usually, they use one or the other, and swap every month or so.
-Hank
THese boats rarely run the boards
The old steam boats did a lot worse damage especially the Merrell class.
HHL has been repainted recently, so that may be the middle boat to be replaced. AL has been through a couple of collisions, so I agree that she will probably go first. Let's hope they have a more dignified end than did Verrazzano and the Mary Murray class boats. How's about a nice floating restaurant somewhere?
wayne
(How's about a nice floating restaurant somewhere? )
State prison?
How about Bring back the old Electric(69th Bayridge) Bay Ridge Ferris while we are at it along with the 2 to Jersey City, 1 to Hoboken and 1 to Weehawken, opps I forgot the one at 125th St to Ft Lee and the Yonkers one. And maybe the Hudson River Day Line to Indian Point, West Point and Newburg
If I'm not mistaken there are now ferries to Hoboken and Weehawken plus a few other new routes. Of course not with the awesome steamboats I remember; the modern ones are rather small craft. I have a lot of fond memories of them, along with YES the Hudson River Day Line! Pity that such a scenic river lost its public boat trips, even if they weren't the Alexander Hamilton or the Robert Fulton. Then there were my favorites on the Hudson R. ferries: Binghamton, Niagara, etc. Anybody remember the old steam ferries?
Yes, I do, especially the ones that ran between Newburgh and Beacon before the bridge was built.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I understand that the MTA has just announced subsidized ferry service between Havastraw in Rockland County and the Ossining Train station. The Hudson River waterfront is probably the best place to add development in Westchester, because the trains are there. With ferries, that goes for both sides of the river.
Why do the ferry boats slam into the wood at South Ferry rather than come in with just a nudge ?
Simon
Swindon UK
The currents at the Battery are pretty tough, and the Kennedy-class boats don't have as precise a control system as the newer boats do. They require the boards to dock properly. And they don't slam that often, everything depends on the currents and conditions.
-Hank
To further Hank's explanation, the South Ferry terminal is in very close proximity to the confluence of the Hudson and East Rivers, and this has a lot to do with crosscurents when docking.
Also, the ferries must make a rather sharp left turn to face into the slips at South Ferry after their cross-harbor run.
If they didn't, the ferry wouldn't be as much fun!!!
Anyone have any idea who the shipbuilder will be?
I have no further info-sorry !
I could just see it now: Rocker smuggly poses for the press at Grand Central before a train of Redbirds enters the station. Once there, the doors open and he steps partly inside -- then the doors go to work -- he gets an arm and a leg stuck as the doors close w/o warning, and the train moves out. He screams like a 5-year-old girl as New York's Finest laugh as his exposed appendages dangle frantically from the doors. Hilarious!
Or..maybe he'll shoot off his mouth...and a big rusted chunk of redbird will fall down his throat
Or..maybe he'll shoot off his mouth...and a big rusted chunk of redbird will flake off and fall down his throat
Today while entering the "L" @ Livonia, I overheard a lady ask the token booth clerk if she can get to the 3 on her card. She had an unlimited and claimed that she had 15 minutes on it. She must have boarded at either NL or Sutter. Where is that transfer???:):):)
3Train#2119Mike
>>get to the 3 on her card...Where is that transfer?
How abouts 14st Station on the 1-2-3-9
..nice colorful sign telling all the
L is upstairs.
It's a HELL of a ride from Livonia Avenue to 14th Street... an hour or so? Two different boroughs.
I lived in Brooklyn almost all of my life. I occasionally rode the 3 train to go to my aunt's house at Penn Avenue. The L train was closer to my house but about a mile from her house. I had to go all the way Downtown to catch the 3 train and ride from there, where as the L/3 transfer at Livonia/Junius Stations would be ideal. But NOOOO, there is no transfer, so us that lives in Williamsburg have to take the bus all the way downtown and transfer to the 3(back then, metrocards were too advanced, 2 fares). Why don't the MTA just make the connection between the two, I mean the walkway is already there!
I'm certainly not rich (I work for the city) but I think I would pay the extra fare at Junius/Livonia rather than make the trip half a day by travelling all the way to Manhattan to make the transfer. By the way, its a lot less than one mile between Junius & Pennsylvania.
But a rather unsafe "less than a mile". By the way, the walkway over the LIRR tracks connects only to Junius St. It does not actually connect to the (3) station whose easternmost extent is actually Powell St, despite its name.
Bob Sklar
But it use to years ago.
Why doesnt the MTA want this connection made?
There are several connections which are farther
apart,14 7thave is like a three block walk,
Times Square connections for the A,C,E .All they
need to put up is gates and lights the ramp is already there!!!!
The walkway that's there is used by people in the community. There is a big supermarket (Big R) on the west side and also other business's that people on the east side go to. They would have to walk to Blake to cross over without paying a fare. The walkway is too narrow to put fare control down the middle to accomodate both.
Hello Folks, I hope your all ready to ride the 10 car version of the 7 line. Perhaps for the very last time. I think either this weekend or next weekend the 10 car service WILL begin. So get your cameras ready and have a blast.
Great. Can I pick out my R-33 single now? They're sad and rejected by all, because the people don't like the axiflow fans. Well, the R-17 could use a playmate right about now.
Will the MTA let you do that? I don't see why they wouldn't seeing as they will probably be the first of the Redbirds to go along with the R26s and 28s. By the way, what's happening with the transfer of R62As from the 3 and 6 to the 7? Is it really happening or was the last of the many threads about this just more speculation and the NYCT Operations Department messing with our heads once again?
The R62A from the 6 line moves to the 7 line won't happen until the R142s are delivered to Westchester Yard. The R62As from the 3 line won't move anywhere until that Option order of R142s come in. MTA Operations friggin' with our nerves is more like it!
Trevor Logan
What will the IRT car assignments look like after all the R142/142A's are delivered?
I would have thought that the Flushing Line would be getting the new cars, instead of hand-me-down 62/62A's.
- Jim (RailBus)
The assignments will look as such, This is effective May 2000:
(1) - Bombardier R62A
(2) - Bombardier/Kawasaki R142
(3) - Bombardier/Kawasaki R142 Option Order (Line will return to 10 Cars)
(4) - Kawasaki R62
(5) - Bombardier/Kawasaki R142
(6) - Bombardier/Kawasaki R142
(7) - Bombardier R62A (From the 6 and 3 Lines)
(9) - Bombardier R62A
It's still possible that the (7) will see R142s or a high model because in the 2000-2004 budget plan there is a plan for 320 more IRT cars, but not R142s, probably R150s or something or another.
Trevor Logan
Trevor, A question about the 4. There are 90 cars of Redbirds currently running on that line. If these go, wouldn't it be possible to give that line a few trains of R-142s?
Nice assignment, but it assumes that all redbirds are being scrapped right away. This is probably not the case.
-Stef
That is not a all at once deal, that's once the order is completed in 2001.
It is possible for the (4) to see some R142s or they may migrate some R62A Link Bar Sets to the (4).
Trevor
Thanks!
-Stef
Hmm... why did the 3 Line run with 9 cars? Is it because of a shortage?
thats the only line that doesn't have large cabs on their trains. i guess that the reason that it stayed nine cars.
All R-62/62a were delivered with convertible cabs. It is a simple matter to change the r-62A's on the 3 line to transverse cabs.
Peace,
ANDEE
In fact the 3 have trnverse cabs. All cars from 1900-1965 that ends with a 0,1,5, or 6 have these cabs. All except for one. Does anybody know which car it is?
3Train#1905Mike
Ha! 1905!!!! Up until recently, 1910 didn't have a transverse cab either.
-Stef
OK what is in that bunch? #1909 had been laid up with body damage caused by an accident at Hunts Point Avenue switch. Has she been repaired?
wayne
Stef, How did you know???:):):)
3Train#1910Mike
I got a report from someone about the status of transverse cabs on the 3. I recalled that 1910 hadn't got it, then someone told me it did. But someone left 1905 out, and this will probably be rectfied by the shop.
-Stef
No, no, no. The 3 runs 9-car trains because of limitations posed by Lenox Yard. It has nothing to do with cab size.
The 3 runs with 9 car trains because either:
148st - 10 car trains on some of the yard tracks can't clear the switches
145st - 10 car trains heading uptown block the #2 line switch
I think its the first one.
It must be the first. If it were the second, the train could just stop one train-length forward of where it stops and it would clear the switch.
Cool, both of my lines will see new cars......
3TM
When the cars are on the retiring block, they'll let anyone look at them. Show them the money and they'll dance. I can pack the single up and move her to a better place. Now would be a good time to do a visual inspection of the cars, and to see how they are as a whole. I've heard the R-62A transfer routine multiple times, and all I can say is wait and see. Let's get the new kids on the block (142s) into place on the IRT, and then the 62As can finally go into Queens.
-Stef
How will they get those r62's to the flushing
line anyway?Why cant they be 11 cars like the redbirds?
They will be 11 cars, 2 5 car sets from the 6, with 1 single from the 3.
Which may likely be added to create a 6 car set.
The R-62as will probably go to Concorse, reverse down the D to Dekalb, then travel up the N to Queensboro Plaza.
Or, travel down the D to 47-50th, then go to 63rd / Lex, reverse down the B'way line to 49th, then reverse again to Queensboro Plaza.
The way I see it, the go down Concourse, reverse at 2nd Avenue via 6 Av Local, then travel up the 6th Av express to the non-revenue tracks at Lex/63, then go down the northbound B'way express track to 57th St, where they reverse again to go north on the N line to Queensboro Plaza, where they cross onto the 7 line's tracks.
But they can. Two 5 Car R-62A Units and One Single R-62A Unit make up an 11 car train.
They will continue to have 11 car trains even with the 62A's because ridership demands it.
-Stef
If Branford does take one they better repaint it to the original Worlds Fair blue & white!
Yeah. We shall see how this plays out.... For the moment, a two car train of redbirds, doesn't seem like a bad thing. Heck, you've got a rep from the mainline, and one from Flushing. What more can you ask for? But of course, it's up to the Organization to actually acquire one.
-Stef
The real question is, would they still be compatible? 6688 never went through GOH and has the original 39-pin electric portions. The single R-33s, along with the other Redbirds, received 52-pin electric portions. You might be able to couple them together mechanically; the electrical part may be another story.
You get the point. Jeff H. said the same thing. He would have to change the electric portions on the 33 single to make things work, but I'm puzzled by something. The 17s ran with the 36s during the time the 33s were being overhauled, the question I have is when did the 36s go to 52 pin electric portions?
-Stef
This may not necessarily signal a change in rolling stock. In recent summers, '7' trains have been running ten car sets rather than eleven for two reasons. One: They don't have to run the one non-A/C car on each train. Two: Presumably there's less ridership in the summer, so the loss of one car won't hurt too much.
I'm rather looking forward to seeing stainless steel cars on the Flushing line for a change. It's had the same R-33/36WF cars (albeit with several changes in exterior color) for over 35 years now; that may set or rival any record for the longest continuous period the same cars have exclusively served the same line.
Yes, I know the R-1/9s ran on some IND lines- specifically the 'E', 'F' and 'G'- for over forty years, but from the sixties on, they were interspersed with newer cars on those lines. Except for the early eighties when some older mainline IRT cars ran on it, the '7' has had absoultely no variation in rolling stock.
I've seen little mention of movies with Chicago el scenes so thought I'd drop a few for those interested. There are others but I can't remember them by name. Streets Of Fire: scenes of the 6000's, street scenes under the L, and onboard ride. Some good late 50's sound rock & roll too. The Fugitive: onboard and passing scenes, prsent equipment. Ditto: Code of Silence, WhileYou Were Sleeping. (theLatter is a nice old fashioned story too.)
What about "Risky Business"...didn't Rebecca DeMornay spend the night with Tom Cruise on an El train?
<<< What about "Risky Business"...didn't Rebecca DeMornay spend the night with Tom Cruise on an El train? >>>
She sure did. The ultimate railfan fantasy ...
How about "Blues Brothers"?
Looking for Mr. Goodbar. Diane Keaton on 6000 series train.
Also 'The Hunter' with Steve McQueen (his last movie, I believe) ... extended chase scene onto and on top of a CTA train.
Favorite recent movie with el scenes - "While You Were Sleeping" with Sandra Bullock. She plays a CTA token clerk who saves the life of a guy who got mugged on an el platform and fell onto the tracks (bet the CTA loved that story line!). Very funny and romantic movie, and some good downtown El scenes to boot. Highly recommend it.
Goofiest Chicago el scene of all was probably "Running Scared" with Billy Crystal ... a car chase scene in which Crystal's cop chases the bad guys car onto the CTA tracks at a grade crossing and then up onto the El! Like either car would last 100 feet racing down a railroad or el track at high speed. Just stupid.
- Jim (RailBus)
IIRC one of Steven Segal's movies (Above the Law ?) had some CTA scenes.
So did Planes, Trains and Automobiles wich had Steve Martin riding in an L car after finally getting back to home . . . then finding John Candy at his station.
Don't forget all the L shots in ER.
Another TV show with Ls is the just-cancelled Early Edition, already in rerun heaven on the Fox Family Channel. The bar (it's actually a furniture store) at the southwest corner of Franklin and Illinois was always shot toward the L. The hero rarely drove and used Ls to reach potential disaster scenes; he rescued people about to be pushed onto platforms or in one case prevented a train from crashing off the Loop. One major mistake: a scene on an overpass above the Dan Ryan, supposedly at 87th, was actually shot south of 95th. The Red Line was nowhere in sight on the median!
Anybody wonder why the approaching train in the mugging scene didn't make an emergency stop? Didn't look like they even tried. But While You Were Sleeping indeed a sweet story.
The TV series early edition had many scenes involving CTA in some way (bus, L, background or directly involving the plot), before recent cancellation.
So did the show Good Times, showing many scenes of the L and many different car series in its opening montage.
Don't forget the Bob Newhart show.
06/29/2000
Although not a movie, on the TV series "The Untouchables" I remember a scene with Robert Stack and couple of actors seated in a 4000 series L car. It was either the real thing or a convincing mock up.
Bill "Newkirk"
Wasn't Hill street Blues filmed in Chicago. I can remember many scenes panned across the landscape with the "El" in the background.
Does anybody know which lines they were?
Actually HSB was sort of generic. Many scenes were filmed in Chgo, but occasionally a New York location(125th on MN) would flas accross the screen and at leasty once the fabled MFEL 'almond joys' were shown passing along on the el.
There was one recurring shot of the Chicago L on Hill Street Blues that I vividly remember. It featured a train of 6000 series cars crossing over Broadway just north of Wilson Avenue in a North Side neighborhood known as Uptown. (The last 6000s were retired in 1994).
Several episodes of ER featured 3200s, the series that replaced the last 6000s. In one recent ER show, someone with a weird sense of reality added hissing air brakes as a sound effect. Strange!
Strange indeed. None of the postwar Chicago L equipment had air brake!
I did not know they combined both cities.I don't recall seeing any graffiti on the cars. Are you sure they shot in NYC?
Does anybody know which areas were dipicted and which lines were used in the show?
Marty;
Hill Street Blues was set in a fictional Northeastern City. Therefore they tried to obscure the background shots and make them generic rather than identifiable as in one particular city. Some of the shots were from New York and some from Chicago, and many exteriors (without rapid transit) were shot in Los Angeles.
Tom
Thanks for the info Tom. Hill street was one of those shows that set standards and paved ways for copycat shows. There is nothing like the original.
Sorry "Law and Order" is up there as well.
Judgement night starring Cuba Gooding Jr. Inner city flick with a couple of good scenes under the El in Chicago.
Believe it or not, but almost ALL of STREETS OF FIRE was shot INDOORS on a soundstage!! [I really don't know if the one scene where they board a train that isn't leaving because [supposedly] of a riot, was actaully filmed ont ehL or not....] Check out the Streets Of Fire entry at www.imdb.com ...
Having seen the movie I'd have to say the actual train scenes on the line or on board were for real. I did wonder looking at the station they posed under a few times if it was real but you've given me the answer. Interesting that the story was supposed to be San Francisco which has no such railway..unless you want to include BART. [Mention of a neighborhood called Battery and the black musicians with the bus saying "this ain't no MUNI bus"]
The subway is a tropical climate. Lighting (from the third rail) illuminates many of the tunnels. It is sticky and it is hot. Here are some temperatures I took today in the system.
34th street IND 91F
Grand Central IRT Lex platform 94F
Brooklyn Bridge 92F
E/F Lexington 86F
N/R Lexington 83F
Also in Grand Central platform was 90F (away from doorway), Penn was also 90F
Both temperatures in each concourse was 76F I did notice Grand Central had a nice breeze blowing in from the terminal on the platform near the entrance, there must be some suction sytem to suck hot air and pull cool air in. Penn station just had blowers blowing hot air around, actually under the blowers it was 96F!
Relative humidity in the subway stations ranged between 70 and 80 %.
In combination with the heat, it makes it feel over 100, much worse than it actually is.
So indeed the subway was a tropical climate, high temperature, high humidity and lots of lightning!
John,
How did you measure the relative humidity? For example, at 90F with a dew point of 74F the RH is about 55%. Dew points over 75 are virtually unheard of in this area, and over 80 physically impossible, even in the subway.
Might have been the McFlurry test, how long does it take for it to do to soup, and if the M&Ms melt then it must be over 75 <-G->
Mr t
A small handheld thermometer and humidity meter, it's called Thermo-Hydro and I got it from Wind and Weather. The readings may not be 100% accurate, but I'm not gonna stand in a subway station whirling a sling psychrometer!
It must be very humid in the subway because even passing trains don't evaporate the sweat from my face, there is no cooling what so ever. I guess with all the water down there on the tracks and the heat, along with it provides the hot air with more moisture which it can hold alot of.
...except for the lower level at Canal Street, which apparently has its own seperate ecosystem from the rest of the NYCTA :-)
Could it be cooler since there are no trains running through it giving off hot air. and it is the natural temp. all stations would be without trains????
I find it hard to believe that any station other than Canal can have such a low temperature, trains or not, as to enable one to see his own breath during the summer.
The fact there apparently still is an underground water source (other than the sewer, of course) running down Canal Street may also account for cooling the station.
Darn I should've taken the temp down there! I'd estimate it's 60-65F down there.
If you get a chance, could you get a reading at 72nd-Broadway?
You mean 74th and Broadway? That's a pretty hot station too, probably 90 or more degrees in there.
I think he meant 72nd / Broadway, on the 1/9,2,3.
OK, I've never been there yet this summer.
Henry's right. IME, that's one of the more dreadful stations. The staircases -- the only source of ventilation, IINM -- are narrow and don't even lead directly outside.
For one thing, 74-Broadway is elevated. Roosevelt Avenue is the underground portion.
I noticed that the philly transit system experiances a weather lag of about a day or 2. In the first hot day the subways will be nice and cool and will also be cool for the second and possibly third hot day. However after that they are just as hot as the outside temp and sometimes a little hotter. But when the outside temps drop the subways will stay hot and sticky for about another 2-3 days.
(I noticed that the philly transit system experiances a weather lag of about a day or 2. In the first hot day the subways will be
nice and cool and will also be cool for the second and possibly third hot day. However after that they are just as hot as the
outside temp and sometimes a little hotter. But when the outside temps drop the subways will stay hot and sticky for about
another 2-3 days.)
I noticed that in the NYC subway as well -- and in my house. There is no defense against 5+ days over 90 degrees.
In my house, however, I use a fairly high powered window fan set on exhaust to bring in cooler night air. This eliminates the two or three day lag before the house cools down. Perhaps if the TA had enough fans in the hottest stations and tunnels, it could clear the bad air quicker.
Exhaust fans work well, if it gets cooler outside. But in NYC I imagine it don't cool down much at night, due to all the concrete creating a "heat island".
But putting exhaust fans in the subway would be a big help.
I heard that there is a new card out or will be, advertising the circle line. Anyone know of this?
Thanx,
Joe C.
Here it is:
New 1-Year MetroCard Gives Premium Savings
Lifted from DailyNews article:
[But TransitCenter — a nonprofit agency set up by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, New Jersey Transit and the Port Authority Trans Hudson Corp. — plans to start offering the Premium TransitChek MetroCard to others in the fall, Filler said.]
Joe asked: "advertising the circle line?"
We're talking about two different cards ... I think.
The "TransitChek Premium" card that I've seen is yellow & red vs. grey & red. They been in use since June 1st (we saw 20 the first day). Mine is attached to a poster for our drivers to see for a while ("A Couple of New Cards in Town" ... also have the "Single Trip" card on the poster ... we see about 300 a month of these), then they will go back into my collection.
Mr t__:^)
There are two new one for "The Beast", the Circle Line high speed boat ride. Two is one of the perforing art centers. I know the name but am not even going to try spell the name, but it is the one with the "Met", on Broadway in midtown. Someone who can spell it let us know what it is.
Thanks
Robert
Someone (apparently high on something) got clobbered by the outhbound train on track 1. As the train was rounding the curve the person turned around and start to drop his pants. He got hit at approx 65 mph. Took an extra hour for police to let 2 rescue trains come along side to take the people off our train.
During this time only track 4 (the inbound local track) was in use. You can imagine the delays !!
OK, admit it. How many of you actually own the NYC Subway Map Shower curtain?
-- Kirk
I do.
I would, but I hear it's too small for most showers.
Peace,
ANDEE
:)
-Hank
Not me, but I do have service for 12 with those new glasses that have various entrance signs (i.e. Subway A,C,E in blue) ....
--Mark
A while back there was a thread disputing whether the Second Avenue Subway (if built) should be A division of B division. I have the answer -- it should be BMT, and the orignial three operating divisions should be re-separated into competing units!
The MTA would own the tracks, and pay to maintain them with tax dollars and toll subsidies. It would also operate the fare collection system. Turnstiles would be installed between the divisions; the transfer would remain free, but the MTA would apportion fare revenues among the divisions (and the bus system) based on the transfers. Each division would have to break even on an auto-equivalent basis, covering the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating cars with farebox revenues.
The IRT would be today's A division. Dividing up the IND and BMT to enhance competition would require more work.
In South Brooklyn, the BMT would get the Brighton, the West End, and the lower half of the 4th Avenue line, the Montingue Tunnel, the H tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, and half the capacity of the Rutgers tunnel, which would be connected to the DeKalb Tracks on one end and the Second Avenue Subway on the other end. At Pacific and 36th Street, side platforms would be built for BMT use -- the IND would use the island platforms.
Meanwhile, the IND would get the Culver, Sea Beach, and upper 4th Avenue trains, half the Rutgers tunnel, and the A/B Manhattan Bridge tracks. The IND 4th Avenue local would switch to the express tracks before 36th St, to stay separated from the BMT. IND 4th Avenue trains would bypass DeKalb.
So in south Brooklyn, you'd go Sea Beach/4th Avenue (IND), West End (BMT), Culver (IND), Brighton (BMT), Nostrand (IRT). Plenty of people would have a choice.
In Manhattan, the BMT would have the Broadway line, which would be fed from the Montigue Tunnel and the H tracks of the Manhattan Bridge, and the Second Avenue Subway, which would be fed from the Montigue Tunnel/Nassau St Line and the Rutgers Tunnel.
In Manhattan, the IND would be as it is today.
In Eastern Brooklyn, when the the LIRR to GCT was complete, the BMT would get the LIRR Atlantic Branch, which (with 7 or so stations added) would replace the Jamaica El east of Broadway Junction. It would also provide competition for the IND in Jamaica. On the other end, it would hook into DeKalb Avenue and continue on to Manhattan via the Montigue or Rutgers Tunnel. The BMT would continue to operate the L, the M, and the inner Broadway Line.
In Eastern Brooklyn, the IND Fulton St line would be as it is today, but the G would be hooked up to Jay Street and the 63rd Street tunnel. Running in a loop through Manhattan, the G would offer real competition for the L and J.
For the BMT, the 60th St tunnel would be hooked up to the Second Avenue subway as well as the Broadway Line. The Astoria Line would be extended not only to LaGuardia but on to Flushing, providing competition for the IRT.
All IND trains would use the 53rd and 63rd St tunnels to Queens.
Of course, the BMT would get the upper Second Avenue line, extended as orignially proposed up to the Dyre Avenue line, thus providing competition for the IRT.
There it is: the competing, more or less equal entitities. If that wouldn't improve subway service, nothing will.
I'm with you 100%, except that I don't think the MTA should handle fare collection--they do that as inefficiently as everything else. I don't think you need turnstyles between the divisions; periodic passenger surveys could apportion fares where more than one division shares turnstyles. Let the MTA disburse road-equivalent subsidies.
I'm not too keen on re-unification. Competition (in the form of competing private companies I assume) would conceivably open a Pandora's Box of conflicting fares for different routes. Precedent notwithstanding, I could easily envision this leading to additional fares as a person moved from one system to the other.
As to removing the Jamaica Avenue El east of Broadway Junction, well, I can't see that as being anything less than a catastrophe for the affected communities. The Long Island Railroad is blocks away and whereas that may not be such a big deal to those not living in this war zone, it is a VERY big deal to those that do. Being forced to walk a few extra blocks in the areas around Fulton Street and Jamaica Avenue could literally mean the difference between life and death for the scores of people who use that line to commute to and from work in the wee hours of the morning.
In addition, if the Archer Street subway were not extended beneath the current El to meet up with its surviving portion at Broadway Junction, then we could be faced with a similar situation as that which befell those residents living along the Lexington Avenue corridor once that El was removed in 1950. The then extent Myrtle Avenue El was approximately the same distance as is the proposed LIRR replacement of the Jamaica Avenue El. Rather than enhance the community, the El's removal hastened its decline insofar as its removal destroyed a vital lifeline those citizens had to the outlying communities.
There is one final point to be made and that is the Broadway El is the only El remaining from the Nineteenth Century and what's more, the Fulton Street segment of the line (built in the early 1890s) that you advocate being removed, is the only unreconstructed stretch of elevated track remaining from that period. To destroy it for any reason at this point would be a crime. Rather it is better for us to choose the path our neighbors in Chicago have chosen for their aging elevated system and that is rehabilitation rather than destruction.
The system can be made to work as it is. Add new lines as necessary but keep the existing ones up and running. Not only will it be cheaper in the long run, it will also serve to preserve a vital piece of the city's past for years to come.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
(The system can be made to work as it is)
E-dog, I take it that you are not a big fan of plans, advocated by others here, to extend the El down Jamaica Avenue and eliminate the S curve to the Fulton El.
I have toured the area on many occasions, and did not find it to be a war zone. While I did not travel through the area at night, I wouldn't say the walk from Jamaica or Fulton to Atlantic is a death walk.
Dear Mr. Littlefield:
My understanding is that the plans call for the elimination of the El entirely east of Broadway Junction and to replace it through the introduction of joint LIRR/subway service on the LIRR route to Brooklyn. As to the S curve, remember that in the late 1950s there was talk of third-tracking the Jamaica Avenue El all the way out to 168th Street. This effort was fought back by local residents for two reasons: one, they were averse to the increase in noise pollution attendant with the greater number of trains and two, the elimination of this curve would have resulted in the public condemnation of scores of private homes and businesses.
Now I will admit to being somewhat of a sentimentalist when it comes to the Broadway/Jamaica El. I missed the Manhatttan portion of the Third Avenue El by ten years and the Myrtle Avenue El and the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El were both gone by the time I was eight. The S curve of the type we see on the Broadway/Jamaica line is a throwback to an earlier time. It harkens back to the S curve at Coentis Slip of the Third Avenue El in Lower Manhattan and as such is an example of one of the El's unique quirks which throughout the years have endowed it with a sentimental appeal seen in few means of public conveyance.
Now, I have traversed this area at night. If you take the Broadway El east of Myrtle Avenue, you will find the surrounding area in a state of virtual blackout. Aside from the lights of private dwellings dotting the route, the only lights you see will be the streetlamps whose pinkish glow bounces off the El's structure as you pass and even this provides little illumination. Therefore, the closer the line is to their homes then greater will be the margin of safety provided for those who must traverse this area late in the evening. There are many areas where improvements can be made, such as extending the Astoria El to LaGuardia Airport or that new rail link currently being erected between the LIRR Jamaica station and JFK. The Broadway/Jamaica El is the last of its breed and as such I feel very strongly that it should not only be preserved, but restored so as to provide a "living" classroom for generations yet unborn. It is, to put it simply, a museum piece, and as such should be treated with the same care and respect as any such artifact with so rich a history.
Sincerely,
Eric Dale Smith
Just as I was reading about the summer track work west of Jamaica, I spotted the 'rail train' just east of the Jam. station. 2 engines in front of 30 cars of rail, followed by two more engines. This brings some questions to mind I've had since the last time I saw the delivery of continuous rail.
1 - How flexible is that train? I realize rail is flexible, but there must be 20 - 30 rails on the train. Do special provisions have to be made for this train?
2 - How heavy are the rails? Again, I know they're heavy, but enough to require 4 engines?
3 - Can rails become 'damaged' in transit, ie warped or twisted?
Rail weighs about 140 pounds per yard. It is also quite flexable and 4 engines should have no problem with a 30 car train. I guess it would be restricted from tight curved industrial sidings and the like.
Sound like they use 140 lb. “RE” rail on the LIRR, from what you’re describing.
I know that on the New York City Subway, they use 100 lb. “ARA-B” rail on most tracks, and 115 lb. “RE” rail on open-cut sections of the Brighton and Sea Beach lines.
I think the same 115lb rail is used on the "Light Railways" in New Jersey. I find it odd that the rails on "Heavy Rail" sytems are lighter than on "light rail"
The light and heavy refers mainly to the rolling stock and clearances. Rail weight on industrial sidings and some yards can go as low as 85 lb/yard. Most railroad track in the US is 130-140 lb/yard. Up in New Englande where traffic is not as heavy they make do with 110-115. The PRR had the best rail at 152/155 and some of that is still in place on Amtrak's Harrisburg Line.
I saw the train today just east of Jamaica. Stencils on the side of each car indicated that the max net weight load it could hold is about 110,000 lbs (per car).
The train is actually very flexible just like any other freight train. I work at F.Pond yard and seen that train maneuver down the wye which is pretty damn sharp of a curve with ease. The train has 4 engines because it is damn heavy, and 2 engines on each end saves the crew a runaround move. Not everywhere you can run around a 30 car freight on LIRR.
Since I started working at the USTA in Flushing Meadows, I have seen a lot of track work a couple thousand feet west of the Shea Stadium station. There is a really large Hi-Rail crane, a Plasser RM-200 switch tamper, several other Hi-Rail vehicles, other rail machines and many workers. Is this a whole-line rehabilitation, or just spot repairs?
-Daniel
The seat handout on the LIRR for "June 2000" says the train is 1,150 foot long. They plan to replace 12,000 foot of track west of Jamaica which incl. 6,000 concrete ties. From the #7 Woodside station you can see what they have already done.
Mr t__:^)
The Track Laying Machine(TLM) is 1,150 feet long, not the train set carrying the new rails. The TLM looks like a Rube Goldberg device if you've ever seen it in action.
-- Kirk
Which tracks are they replacing? I thought they had just replaced all four tracks west of Jamaica, with concrete ties and everything, only a few years back.
07/01/2000
[Just as I was reading about the summer track work west of Jamaica, I spotted the 'rail train' just east of the Jam. station. 2 engines in front of 30 cars of rail, followed by two more engines.]
Are you sure of this? All 4 tracks were replaced west of Jamaica complete with concrete ties. Maybe you mean EAST of Jamaica? I heard this was the next section to be done.
Bill "Newkirk"
Just wondering if there is on this site or elsewhere a diagram of some kind (like a Popular Mechanics cut-a-way view) of the LIRR DM's. I'm curious on how (in very simple, general terms)they operate, ie just exactly what is inside where. I think they are quite cool looking, and have loads of hatches and doors, which I'd love to open to see whats behind them. If you can offer some kind of description/explanation, I'd certainly appreciate it. Thanks.
Just wondering if there is on this site or elsewhere a diagram of some kind (like a Popular Mechanics cut-a-way view) of the LIRR DM's. I'm curious on how (in very
simple, general terms)they operate, ie just exactly what is inside where. I think they are quite cool looking, and have loads of hatches and doors, which I'd love to open to
see whats behind them. If you can offer some kind of description/explanation, I'd certainly appreciate it. Thanks.
X 2200 South, a locomotive magazine, had a diagram from EMD in one of their past issue.
Notice that it costs a record 250 million dollars per mile and is built to withstand a 8.1 earthquake. The total cost is still only 4.5 billion for 17 miles How long is the entire second ave subway supposed to be? The MTA should be charged with embezzilement for cashing their paychecks
[Notice that it costs a record 250 million dollars per mile and is built to withstand a 8.1 earthquake. The total cost is still only 4.5 billion for 17 miles How long is the entire second ave subway supposed to be? The MTA should be charged with embezzilement for cashing their paychecks.]
We really are talking grand larceny here.
Notice that it costs a record 250 million dollars per mile and is built to withstand a 8.1 earthquake. The total cost is still only 4.5 billion for 17 miles How long is the entire second ave subway supposed to be? The MTA should be charged with embezzilement for cashing their paychecks
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TRAVEL/NEWS/06/07/subwayfinale.ap/index.html
Here is one bound to start a debate.
At 8:30 a.m., a 60 year old passenger on the F line somewhere in Borough Park (66th Precienct) stuck his cane in the door to hold up the train until he could get on. The 46 year old conductor allegedly hit him, and was arrested and charged with assault. No word on how hard the man was hit, or if he was hurt.
a) What will happen to the conductor? Fired? What SHOULD happen?
b) What should be done with passengers like that?
I have my own answer to B. The conductor should have called the police and held the train. Conductors should carry postcards to hand out to passengers, addressed to the Transit Authority. The police should identify the person holding up the train. The TA legal department should file a class action lawsuit against the door holder on behalf of those submitting the postcards -- $20 for the delay, $100 for pain and suffering per person.
If trains further down the line are also delayed, those passengers could also get such postcards.
Yes TA operations also cause delays, but not maliciously.
I cannot confirm this story at this time! However, rule #10c requires all employees treat customers with courtesy, patience, forebearance & restraint, even under the greatest provocation. If true, the charges would be serious enough to seek termination.
[No word on how hard the man was hit, or if he was hurt.]
According to the NYS Penal Law for someone to be charged with assault there MUST be an injury so if the conductor was arrested for assault the victim would have to have been hurt. Otherwise it would just be harassment. Ah, but here's the loophole. Substantial pain can be construed as an injury and how can a cop dispute someone's claim of substantial pain?
(According to the NYS Penal Law for someone to be charged with assault there MUST be an injury so if the conductor was arrested for assault the victim would have to have been hurt. Otherwise it would just be harassment. Ah, but here's the loophole. Substantial pain can be construed as an injury and how can a cop dispute someone's claim of substantial pain?)
According to Newsradio88, the charge is second degree assault, if that makes a difference.
Second degree assault would be: (summarized, not exact)assault with a weapon, any weapon, or:serious physical injury
What about battery?
-Hank
That's what you are charged with when you throw them at John Rocker.
(sorry, couldn't resist).
subfan
Figures.
-Hank
Yes, you can charge batteries, too. :)
People sell them on the train. "$2 in the store $1 on the train..."
8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
What should happen is the conducter should get a commendation. It is public policy to kill passengers. See my previous comments for confirmation of this
if i was a conductor (with bad temper) i would kill a passenger for holding the damn door with his or her cane because he or she is wrecking service and lowering the chances of keeping my job am i correct? if i were in charge of the TA then i would put more door guards through out the system to prevent the damn passengers from holding the doors. two per car at all stations.
Of course, if it had been a Redbird, the door would have simply eaten the man's cane and taken off down the tracks while he fell to the platform floor. It still might have made a story for the 6 p.m. news, but the conductor would be in a better situation than he is right now...
The conductor should have shown courtesy to the man with the cane.
He should have been allowed the 2-4 seconds it would have cost to
have him board. He has a physical disability and he should be
extended some consideration.
On a related note, I can understand conductors not re-opening
for door holders during peak periods. What gets me is conductors
who play that game during night hours, when the next train is perhaps
20 minutes away. They often waste several minutes in their
confrontation with the door holder when it would have cost them
just a few seconds to re-open.
true. if it happened at a non rush hour period then i can under stand ur side. however these people should understand that holding the doors are very unsafe and time costing. look at the redbird incidents. i bet you half or more of the accidents that happened were from people trying to hold the doors for getting in the train or for one person holding it for their friends to run down the stairs or up the stairs to get the train. and for doing so, it cost them an injury.
I guess giving someone control of the doors is almost as bad as giving them a microphone...
SPITTING MAD ON THE F TRAIN
Peace,
ANDEE
"Khalil Moutraji" - Another winning lottery ticket.
As New York City spins around the swirling bowl of 'multi-culturalism', another recent arrival to our shores seeks his piece of the American dream at the expense of those who work for theirs.
Just my personal view of a society in a head-long dive to total collapse.
>>> another recent arrival to our shores seeks his piece of the American dream at the expense of those who work for theirs <<<
Here we go again with another thread of immigrant bashing. Any one who thinks this could not have happened with a native born New Yorker is living in a dream world.
Having said that, and having read the New York Post article with the witness's description of what happened, if I were on the jury, I'd give the passenger $1.00 for his damages. I imagine the TA will settle for a low amount (less than $10,000.00) to avoid the costs of litigation.
I see no possibility of a criminal conviction of the CR, and I would hope he will not get fired (assuming he passes the drug test), but some suspension is definitely in order, and an anger management course. Is the union strong enough to save his job?
Tom
(I see no possibility of a criminal conviction of the CR, and I would hope he will not get fired (assuming he passes the drug test),
but some suspension is definitely in order, and an anger management course. Is the union strong enough to save his job?)
Certainly, after the witnesses description, I have sympathy for the conductor. On the other hand, this definately is NOT what he SHOULD have done.
He pused the cane out. That's good. No reason that pushy people should be able to hold up a train.
After he was spit at, what were his options under TA rules? Could he have held the train and called the cops, or is he just expected to take it? If he had held his temper, the jerk with the cane would be in trouble, and he would be in none.
Upon being spat at, the CR does have the option of calling Control, informing them of the circumstances and that he feels he can not operate safelyand is taking the train out of service. He can also file charges with the NYPD for a misdeamenor assault.
"After he was spit at, what were his options under TA rules? "
He should have notified Control Center to summon the police. Since disease was a real issue he should have removed his train from service and demanded immediate medical attention. Once the C/R retalliated, he was wrong in the eyes of the TA. Will he lose his job - doubtful if only because the arbitrator who hears the case will use common sense.
In Pathmark workers are expected to take it, no matter what. One girl I know one was fired to talking back to someone who called her a "f------ b----. They abuse the workers and Pathmark just tells them to take it. They have said mean things to my mother too like "I got so much money I can make you cry". They actually said that. And no action is ever taken against a customer for being mean to workers, only if a worker speaks up for him/herself, then the worker gets suspended or fired. Pathmark in Greenvale has some of the richest, snooty, and mean customers.
You can't stick up for yourself or you'll get in trouble. We can't upset the rich snobs who rule the world now can we? They have the right to spit on us, curse at us, and we are supposed to take it?
I don't think so, not when the new workers cultural revolution takes place!
Actually, the workers at that PathMark should be allowed to treat the customers with the same disrespect they have to recieve. If that is the only one in the area, the management wouldn't have to worry about loosing customers. The NIMBYs of the area (the same rich snobs) would wish they hadn't opposed all those requests by businesses for more stores. BTW, don't those customers realize that insulting someone who's filling their prescription might be hazardous to their health? If one of those workers snapped, a little medical knowledge might cause great harm.
>>> In Pathmark workers are expected to take it, no matter what. ... They have the right to spit on us, curse at us, and we are supposed to take it <<<
John;
I find it very hard to believe that Pathmark allows employees to be spit upon or be assaulted in any way, without the right to bring criminal charges just like any citizen could if this happened on the street.
As far as customers being generally mean to employees, as long as a business is dependant on the customers for the money to pay the employees' salaries the business will try not to aggravate the customers and this is a condition of employment. If you want to avoid that, work for a government bureaucracy where no one gives a damn for what the clients want.
As far as cursing is concerned, would you expect them to encourage employees to react in kind and escalate a bad situation? Most employers have the employee call a manager to handle the situation, and since cursing is usually a sign of the customer's frustration, the manager will take care of any legitimate gripe the customer has, but will eject any customer that is being abusive without any cause.
Tom
Pathmark is a bad company though. Mean customers have been reported to mgmt and usually nothing is done. One guy who just happens to be a doctor felt like causing trouble and said the pharmacy was unsanitary. The result was pathmark got on their backs at the pharmacy and actually threatened an inspection.
Also pharmacy workers also aren't entitled to the same promotions like "special employee" like the rest of the workers are. And they are cutting hours and positions left and right even though the store is very busy. They are constantly trying to cut costs and care very little about their employees. Pathmark is one of the only supermarkets that do not offer discounts to employees during holidays like Waldbaums and KIng Kullen.
Is Pathmark in major trouble or something?
Is Pathmark in major trouble or something?
They're in bankruptcy.
[Is Pathmark in major trouble or something?]
I believe they're in bankruptcy.
"new workers cultural revolution" -- that was tried once and failed now the free market rope salesmen (IDIOTS) have made China their new frontier. AMERICA IS SCREWED THE ANSWER IS TO ORGANIZE AND BUILD NEW TRADE WALLS AND TEACH YOUR KIDS MORALS AS WELL AS ECONOMICS (Opposites must be balanced}
I totally agree with you. Come to Long Island, especially on the north shore. We have alot of immigrants who are already rich. Persians, Indians, and Europeans. And they look down on anybody poor, and are very mean to workers at Pathmark (I've seen it when I go there).
I don't know how many times I get looks from these people waiting at the bus stop, or for the train, sometimes they even honk at me. They honk at traffic. Rich people look down on public transportation, they believe that a luxury SUV is the only way to travel. Persian jewish people for example are very materialistic. My Mom knows a few who come into Pathmark all the time and they are the most demanding customers. Often we have ones that complain about waiting 20 minutes for medicine, others complain that the pill shape has changed.
This is the same attitude the guy gave to the conductor, he thought he was more important than everybody else and that he should be let on the train.
"Just my personal view of a society in a head-long dive to total collapse. "
Selfishness and snobbiness spreads through our land like a mad disease. Rich people, many of them Persian and Indian immigrants hold their nose up in the air look down at people waiting at the bus stop, especially the hispanic and asian low wage workers. And when it comes to most women around here, most of 'em want their guys rich and tall.
I'm jewish and most women of my creed want to have nothing to do with me since I'm short and poor. That's why I look at asian women, but that's a whole another topic. And I hate that show Survivor, it pits people against eachother in a public popularity contest!
"You see them in their limos, you see the way they stare, they don't see us looking back because they don't really care"
"There's another kind of poverty that only rich men know. The moral malnutrition that starves their very souls"
Glen Frey "I've Got Mine"
This a song I highly recommend listening to.
John;
From reading your post it seems like rather than quoting Glen Frey you should be asking us to all join in on a chorus of the Internationale.
Rather than railing at the "rich snobs" use the opportunities that this land offers to improve your skills, and accumulate wealth, and then when you are rich, live a life that is an example to the other rich by being compassionate and treating those with less wealth with dignity and respect.
Tom
[Come to Long Island, especially on the north shore. We have alot of
immigrants who are already rich. Persians, Indians, and Europeans. And they look down on anybody poor, and are very mean to workers at Pathmark (I've seen it when I go there). I don't know how many times I get looks from these people waiting at the bus stop, or for the train, sometimes they even honk at me. They honk at traffic. Rich people look down on public transportation, they believe that a luxury SUV is the only way to travel. Persian jewish people for example are very materialistic. My Mom knows a few who come into Pathmark all the time and they are the most demanding customers. Often we have ones that complain about waiting 20 minutes for medicine, others complain that the pill shape has changed.]
I really don't know whether rich people tend to be rude, but you may be jumping to an unwarranted conclusion in saying that the North Shore immigrants are rich - some of them surely are, yet on the other hand many of them might be struggling. One thing about immigrants is that they tend to live in extended family groups. For instance, one house might have three or four or even more adults, something that's not particularly common among non-immigrants. What this means is that the total household income might look impressively high, but none of the individuals has a particularly good job. I don't consider people in those circumstances to be rich. Moreover, any change in living arrangements, as members of the extended family move out, can have bad consequences as the remaining members might not be able to pay the mortgage and other expenses without the income of the departing member.
1. Fired and charged with assault
2. There should be a whopping big fine for holding doors and a serious enforcement effort until people get the message
Amazing how many of our problems would go away if we'd just make and enforce some simple rules . . .
Why is the J and Z considered/called the Nassau St. Exp, whne in fact it does not run express in Manhattan let alone Nassau St?
Frank D
The J and Z skip The Bowery.
Also, it was name this way in order to keep riders from beimg confused[BMT BROADWAY LINE-BMT BROADWAY JAMAICA LINE]
No they don't. The J and Z lines have been stopping at the Bowery ever since the Williamsburgh bridge repair project ended on 9/1/99.
So you see my point, what is the Nassau St. Exp for? Obviously its too late to drop the designation, because lord knows we don't what to confuse any riders....
Frank D
The J and Z trains are express in Brooklyn during rush hours. They obviously couldn't call it the Broadway express, and all lines, except for the G are named after their Manhattan routes anyhow. And the F is the Queens Blvd. express, even though it is always local in Manhattan and Brooklyn, ditto the E.
Once again, i've discovered Hollywood working this strange concept of three train destinations. In a recent reaired episode of All in the Family, Archie is on car 1128, set for Dyre Avenue to Grand Central, via South Ferry.
06/29/2000
[Once again, i've discovered Hollywood working this strange concept of three train destinations. In a recent reaired episode of All in the Family, Archie is on car 1128, set for Dyre Avenue to Grand Central, via South Ferry.]
That's the scenic route !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Really? Which route is the South Ferry Line?
Or in End of Days, Chambers Street to Penn Station via the Times Square Line.
The interior resembled that of a R/1-9, which were retired right about when this episode was made, in the 1976-77 season. The seats appeared to be dark green and PADDED, similar to the original seats in the Mack buses of the fifties.
Strange how the whole time they were on the train, it never stopped at a station. They were also able to keep up a conversation without raising their voices, quite a feat in a train with no air-conditioning and open windows. Remember how noisy trains used to be?
When Felix and Oscar went on the subway, the interior of the car was bright yellow.
They did stop at a station, I can't think of the name. It's where the screaming couple got on.
I seem to recall something even stranger. Didn't the trains in the movie, The French Connection, gets mixed up. Wasn't that a Sea Beach "N" train on the West End tracks. I think it was. Hollywood does these dumb things because they feel they can fool us. But as Abe Lincoln said as the last part of this famous quote: "You can't fool all of the people all of the time."
If you looked carefully, (even if you didn't look carefully) that train passed the same high school three times.
That was a wierd show. I was channel surfing and picked up the scene with the 3 different destinations on the side panel. The whole thing
was a fake, but let's give TV and the movies a plus for trying.
That used to be one of the funnier shows on TV.
Chuck Greene
07/01/2000
[Wasn't that a Sea Beach "N" train on the West End tracks.]
Yes Fred, I was told that when filming of the French Connection took place, they (film company) wanted a clean set of cars for the "el" shot. The TA mustered up a set of new R-42's, however this set didn't have the (N) sign but rather the (B) sign we've all seen.
At 25th Avenue, wasn't that a set of R-32's Frog #2 got on? And 25th Ave. is a local stop. However by Bay Parkway before the crash into the layed up R-32's, the consist became R-42's and switched to the express track!! Not to mention various "el" shots between the West End and the Myrtle Ave line (above Broadway) and also the below the "el" car chase made this a nail biter. Gene Hackman's commandeered Pontiac LeMans almost hit the NYCTA bus!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Your ideas and reasons? How to fix the problem?
Too many sharp curves. Speed limits on the Willy B.
Soultions:
Equip the J/M/L/Z lines with articulated cars which can handle these curves safetly at higher speeds.
Tear down the Fulton St. el and replace it with a line straight down Jamaica Ave from Cypress Hills to ENY. Install a center express track all along this line to Jamaica.
Eliminate the sharp curve north of Sutter Ave. and tear down the redundant Sneideker Ave portion of the Atlantic Ave complex (being done as we speak).
Use only the downtown tracks along the Nassau St. line from Essex to Fulton, thus eliminating the speed limits around 2 sharp curves south of Chambers and Canal, as well as the massive and now obsolete interlocking north of Chambers.
Simply put, make it straighter, make it simpler, make it better ...
For starters, they can restore express service between Myrtle ave and Eastern Parkway. Next,they can revive the Jamaica/Bway-Bklyn/6 Avenue ''K''service,BUT not just rush hours,from about 6am to 11pm everyday. Also, what Chris said about the line relocation makes more sense than any dumb skip-stop plan. The only problem,''NIMBY'S''!! Years ago, the T.A. tried to place a third track along with the line relocation along Jamaica avenue ,then along another street from the Norwood avenue station. both plans came under hevey opposition. So to the shelf they went,never to be seen or spoken of again.
There was never a serious plan to equip the J line with a center express track after 1920. The original plan called for a "flyover" express track down Fulton, and a traditional express track along Jamaica Avenue, but this plan was scrapped to speed construction of the Jamaica Ave. portion (which was badly needed after employment soared shortly after we entered WWI.
No serious proposal to equip this line with an express track has been made since, and if it had, it would have been welcomed by most J riders.
On Jamaica Ave, not only is there enough space for that express track, the cross-beams of the structure have little protrusions where the track-beams would have been attached.
The Jamaica Ave portion was designed to be 3 tracks, and Woodhaven Blvd was supposed to be an express station (notice how the girders "swing out" on the Manhattan bound side south of the station, and how the buildings in that area are farther back from the street), however, the plans were scrapped, or delayed to speed construction. An express track might be impossible to install now, as there are several structures build between the tracks to accomodate the newer signal system.
I agree on the point about using articulated cars. I'd like to see cars similar to Stockholm, Sweeden's sleek new C20s operating on the J, M, Z and L trains as well as an express run from Eastern Parkway. the TA really should consider testing C20s in the system considering they won't have trouble running in the NYC subway.
But the thing I'd like to see most is the return of direct Williamsburg Bridge-6th Avenue service. They should run the M to 57th Street via the 6th Avenue local tracks. The J and Z can continue to the Wall Street area with the Z (already a rush hours-only service) continuing on to Bay Parkway over the 4th Avenue and West End Lines.
Now that I think about it, why not use articulated cars over the Manhattan Bridge? Four of Stockholm's C20s must weigh less than eight R68s or 10 R40s, so it might make for less stress on the Bridge and we could finally see a return to service over the Manhattan Bridge before 1986.
Whaddya think, C20 articulated cars for New York? It might be the best solution for the problems of the Eastern Division and the Manhattan Bridge?
I still don't quite understand why so many people think that the use of the Chrystie St connection to the J/M line will be any more successful today than it was 30 years ago, when it failed miserably to improve service on the Eastern Division lines.
I think a Chrystie Street link/Broadway Junction flyover to Rockaway Parkway would work, because it would provide Canarsie riders with a one-seat ride to midtown they don't have now, and even if it runs local between Broadway Junction and Marcy, it would be about the same time as the L takes to get into Manhattann anyway, with all its turns and stops. The problem right now is the L is slated for signal testing work for the next few years, so it's going to remain as a stand-alone line.
Running the M via Chrystie doesn't strike me as a good idea, because a lot of people will end up getting off at Sixth Ave.-14 Street, and taking the L out to Myrtle to see if they can catch up to the M train in front of them during evening rush, while AM rush would be even worse, with people getting off the M ay Wycoff to take the L into Manhattan, instead of looping all the way down to Delancey Street.
Canarsie riders are adequatley serviced by the L line. Adding another line would just be a waste of precious subway cars.
And if I want to get from Canarsie to midtown, I won't take a slow, monotonous ride on a "KK" train. I'd simply switch to the speedy A line at ENY.
I'd be willing to bet once you include the dip down south to serve the downtown Brooklyn area, plus the trip back up north through the financial district, there wouldn't be much of a time differnce, if any between a K local and an A express between East New York and West Fourth Street.
The K would have a lot of stations, but once you get onto Broadway, it's a straight shot to the Willie B and Delancy Street, without the detour to the southeast the A takes. The A feels faster because of all those Broadway el stops, but it's route to West Fourth is about two miles longer than the one the K would take.
Besides, if the A was that much faster right now, all the L riders from Canarsie would be getting off at East New York instead of contiuing in to 14th Street. And as I said in the other post, the L's stops and turns between East New York and 14th Street and Sixth Ave. would make a K service via the Willie B run about at the same time, with the advantage being a one-seat ride from Canarsie to midtown.
My point is, if you're ever going to reopen the Chrystie connection with a route that might actually attract some riders, running it to Rockaway Parkway seems like the best option, since using the M to midtown would create an unnecessary swing south before going north again, while running it to Jamaica won't get passengers off the E or F, unless the MTA shells out the bucks to three-track the Jamaica el for real rush-hour express service.
I'd disagree. With all the speed restrictions on the eastern division, the A line would be a faster way to get into midtown.
Well, A K service via Sixth Ave. to Canarsie won't happen anyway until the new signal systems are fully tested on the L and then extended to other parts of the system. When they add them to the Broadway el, that might cut down on the speed restrictions the Eastern Division is suffering from.
The biggest problem IS that the Williamsburg is two tracks. Therefore eliminating traffic in the Nassau Subway wouldn't really do anything to help congestion over the Williamsburg. What they REALLY need is to take out a traffic lane add another subway track, but the car drivers would scream and yell too much. As for running the Z to Bay Parkway, that is an idea I have been pimping since I first found this message board months ago (back then i went by "Seattle Guy"). I totally agree with that, and I believe that M's should use the Chrystie St. Connection to 57th from 6am to 12pm. This whole idea of having the M not even serve manhattan during evenings is Wakked out. As for another thread i saw about adding an express track on the J/Z, there is no point as long as the Williamsburg is two tracks. Like I said before, take out 1-2 traffic lanes and put in 1-2 subway tracks. Not that that'll ever happen, but that's what needs to happen.
Weren't the inner roadways on the Willimamsburg Bridge trolley tracks at some point? Can't they be converted to subway tracks?
(Congestion over the Williamsburg.)
There isn't any -- only 18 trains per hour, tops. With no stops in the middle of the bridge, its more like an express track than a local, so there is no need for a third track.
I agree about the Midtown service, however. Perhaps if they hook the Second Avenue Subway into the Nassau St subway, as the RPA proposed, they'll divert some Willie B trains to Midtown to make room. The Nassau St subway is 3/4 empty, and it's a real waste. Everyone changes to the F. One of the three bridge services (the J, Z OR M) should be enough for Lower Manhattan. They need to hook the Nassau subway to something else.
Ugh. When will people stop exaggerating the "emptyness" of the Nassau St. line? It's very crowded during the rush hours. And it allows connections with every single north/south trunk line in Manhattan. It's not a wasted line. It's a valuable link with many Brooklyn and Queens riders who'd have no other subway service without it.
Not wasted, just out of mind for most Manhattanites, which is why the MTA can afford to let Chambers Street rot the way it has.
If they ever do build the Second Ave. line and connect it to the Nassau Loop, so that half the station (and the Canal Street one as well) is decidated for the new uptown line,Chambers would be magically transformed into a showplace stop for the MTA, because the people who would ride it would have more influence with the powers that be than those taking the J/M/Z do.
Seems to me they should try K service again.
That's why it's called Barely Moving Transportation.
Let's get Kawasaki to build us replicas of the long-lost MS, complete with ogee roofs, brushed brown stainless steel exteriors and compact flourescent lights. Then we can populate the Eastern Division with them.
They worked out pretty well on the Eastern Division, despite some mechanical flaws.
Wayne
According to my copy of "Subway Cars of the BMT", the St. Louis Car company's multisectional cars had an annoying habit of NOT stopping when the brakes were applied. However, according to everything I read, they performed much better than the traditional Standards did on the plague curved Eastern Division, including the now-gone Pitkin Ave el, which was full of sharp curves.
Under the Ave M station on the Brighton Line there is what seems like a abandoned trackway. Any idea where it goes?
On the West End Line, near the CI complex, there seems to be a wye used to turn tracks? Is that what its used for or does it connect to another line?
It's not an abandoned trackway. It's the LIRR Bay Ridge line, still used for freight.
And it's under Avenue H.
"still used for freight."
yeah, and as a garbage dump!
I belive the wye used to take trains out/put trains in to the west end from CI yard.
The wye is not in use?
I assume you either mean near Avenue H, which as has already been noted, is the LIRR Bay Ridge Line.
Or near Neck Rd., which was the Racetrack Branch, which ran to a seasonal terminal at Ocean Ave, bear Ave. X.
Or are your referring to the abutments adjacent to the Brighton, on the east side, which was the former Manhattan Beach line of the LIRR.
It's so easy to get up to those elevated tracks, and I heard that the news ppl said that they climbed on a roof of a building. Dude, they are only 12-14 year olds. It's easy, where you get off for 125street on the Henry Hudson Parkway, that is where the Amtrak train enters to be outside, you go over the entrance way of the train, but it levels out and there is a rolling fence. It was probably unchained or loose and they just walked up, this is both side's faults, not just the punk teenagers. Vive la teenagers or whatever:)
Clayton Parker
How fast were the train going?
The train was on its way to Toronto from what I heard. It must have several sleepers and dinner cars on it.
serves the person right however it is a grieving thing to hear about. i hope this teaches vandals to stay off of rail property to do their artwork. why can't those kids do artwork somewhere else for instance their backyards? why don't the school systems do graffiti as an art for these kids so they can stay off the damn buildings and trains in New york and other cities nation wide? i think it would help alot and also keep them out of trouble.
They've tried that. But the kids don't want to be artists, they want the thrill of doing something illegal. What can you do?
This wasn't some mama pushing a baby carriage, it was kids out to do something dangerous they weren't supposed to do and knew damn well they weren't supposed to. Kids that age test themselves, and unless you put them in chains if they're too stupid to judge the risks there's nothing you can do about it. Remember that kid that got mauled by the bear? Or the one who sat down in the middle of a highway? If you close off one avenue of risk the kids will just choose another. You can't protect people from themselves.
Yes you can. Keep them locked in their homes. That way, they'll never step into the path of a car, fall out a window, shoot themselves, fall out of bed...
-Hank
Oh, better make that a windowless room with no furniture.
-Hank
Most parents with kids like that probably want to keep them locked *out* of their homes. Which is why I favor preventive detention for teenagers--we should send the whole lot of them to an island somewhere until they stop being sullen.
What were they tagging. I thought the "Graf" movement in NYC was over!
It is on the subways (unless you count those lame window scratches). But there's still plenty of graffitti in poor neighborhoods and out-of-the-way places.
<< You can't protect people from themselves. >>
Tell that to the Democrats in Congress.
[Tell that to the Democrats in Congress.]
C'mon, Republicans too. I can think of lots of laws with conservative support that are intended to protect people from doing things they'll do anyway . . . we seem to be particularly big on insisting that teenagers behave like they're eight-year-olds, unless of course we need them for a war.
"this is both side's faults"
Here we go again. Kids climb to the roof of a building, jump over a fence, onto railroad righ of way that's otherwise protected from sane individuals. And you have the balls to imply that AMTRAK is somehow at fault. I think not. The real culprits are the parents. What were their kids of 12-14 years of age doing with spray paint that is illegal for them to buy, on property that was illegal for them to be at a time when kids that age should have been home committing a criminal act. Where were the parents? I am sorry for their loss but they must be held accountable for not properly supervising their children. How many lessons need to be taught before the message gets through. H-E-L L-O Parents, there are your children - not mine. If you don't care - Oh well.
Well put, Steve. I've had many jobs in my life, but by far the most important ones have been husband, father, and Zayda. I may not always agree with the decisions my children have made, but I do know that they their decisions will be well-considered, honest, and ethical, because my wife and I instilled these values in them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two major rail websites have not been updated in quite a while.
The New England Transportation Website has not been updated since January 12, 2000.
Charlie Publicover's www.trolleycars.com has not been updated since November 17, 1999. Parts of the site have not seen any update since early in 1999.
Anybody know what's going on?
I don't know specifically what the problems are but I'm sure it's a matter of having too much to do and no time to do it. Those sites, as well as this one, aren't full time jobs... Well actually they *are* full time jobs it's just that most of us have more than one job! :)
-Dave
I have heard that the New England Transit Website's Webmater's wife is expecting (perhaps the event has already happened?) and that they recently bought/opened a business which requires their full-time attention.
it was surprising to see. i boarded an R 32 on monday around noon at Queens plaza and seen that the ninth and tenth car had redone floors. like on some of the Kawasaki R 68A's. it gave it a refreshened look. i think those R 32's can go longer than their life span expectancy because they are in such great shape.
They are expected to last until 2015. 2015-1964=51 years, that has to be the longest life expectancy of a subway car in NYC.
Unless you count the Q cars that were rebuilt for the 1939 World's Fair and lasted over 60 years, until the Myrtle el's demise in 1969. But unless they were used in the Essex Street station before the BMT Standards arrived, they never saw service in any of the underground stations.
what was the rest of the car like?
Do the colors match this time?
Knowing the TA the flor will be probably Green, or possibly Blue, i dont think it will
Now, if they are blue, it would be a step in the right direction. Anyway, what did they do with the original sky blue seats?
Painted them.
Car 3?50 or 3?51 has 2 original seat panels, in aqua blue color. The car runs on the N line.
07/01/2000
[Car 3?50 or 3?51 has 2 original seat panels, in aqua blue color. The car runs on the N line.]
Vandals have been known to remove the seat panels anddiscard them trackside somehow. If this was the case, they just pulled out what ever they had in the storeroom with no time to paint them.
Bill "Newkirk"
The cars are 3450-3451.
Yes, I have seen these cars on the N line as well......
3TM
The gray seats are merely the same sky-blue seats painted over.
You were in 3578/79. The other cars I have seen are 3494/95 and 3756/57. There is a fleet defect with the underflooring of the R32's. All R32 cars will have new flooring installed.
To bad the seats couldn't get the color scheme of the R/44,46,68,68a,62. I find the orange , apricot, and tangerene projects a welcoming greeting as opposed to the industrial strength battalship like grayness of the r/32,38,40,40ms.
Perhaps a new makeover of lemon & lime and a soft rosa'
avid
avid... you may like to dream of the tropics when you enter a subway car, but i prefer industrial strength no nonsense battleship gray... i don't want to forget for a moment the very real possibility of dismemberment, derailment, dragging, and disembowelment on my ride... what do you think i dream of as the express goes through a switch as a local passes on the adjacent track?... if i were interested in tangerines, apricots or oranges i would go take a cruise to the tropics... get with it man... it's the possibility of disaster that makes us all red blooded railfans....
Heck, I don't like a fruit salad scheme either... reminds me too much of National City Lines.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just give the R-32s back the original powder blue seats they were born with. The graytones were always more associated with the IRT cars of the 50s and 60s, with the exception of the Salmon colored seats on the R-26/28s (and the R-27/30s on the BMT/IND)
07/01/2000
[Just give the R-32s back the original powder blue seats they were born with. The graytones were always more associated with the IRT cars of the 50s and 60s, with the exception of the Salmon colored seats on the R-26/28s (and the R-27/30s on the BMT/IND)]
Not gonna happen. Tan walls and dark gray seats are the norm, besides this would run into money to satisfy us railfans. Money that could be spent replacing the scratched windows.
Bill "Newkirk"
Whatever, but they should match. The seats gray, the doors stainless steel and the walls tan? Yikh.
In the summer of 1993 one of the 42nd Street shuttle trains had multicolored bench seats. Are they still there?
All 42st. Shuttle trains are R-62as, with the multicolored seats.
But are they all bucket seats, like on every other R-62A (and R-62 and R-44 and R-46 and R-68)? This one train had continuous bench seats, like on (say) the Redbirds, only with flashy colors.
Mayhaps you were on 1587-1590, these 4 R-62s have hard, non-bucket seats in the same color pattern as the rest of the 62(a)s. And no, 1586 (in the same set, strange) and 1591 do not have them (I checked after some people posted they did.)
R-62s 1586-1591 were delivered with the flat seats. Perhaps 1586 and 1591 were retrofitted with bucket seats later.
David
Steve Benkovitz announced in Railpace that Cross Harbor barges will be used as launching platforms for Macy's July 4 fireworks.
http://www.railpace.com/hotnews/
I had a quick trip on an LIRR bilevel (OK, Jeffrey, trilevel!) today from Jamaica to Mineola. The automated announcement system was not operating, and the conductor did manual announcments. It was a DE-30 with four cars bound for Oyster Bay.
A question for those who travel on these trainsets regularly: are these systems failing in general, or was this an isolated incident?
[By the way, on my trip inbound from Mineola to Penn Station, riding in the 1st car of a 12-car train, no ticket was collected on either segment. And the engineer had a very interesting conversation with an off-duty ass't. conductor in a rather loud voice. It's a good think I'm not an FRA inspector! But that's another program...]
[A question for those who travel on these trainsets regularly: are these systems failing in general, or was this an isolated incident?]
I haven't heard them in weeks on the Medford-Ronkonkoma shuttle. On the Montauk line, which I take about once every other week or so (from Patchogue), the automated announcements almost always have been working. It's probably hard to generalize.
to bayshore the only work sometimes
I think its the crew, not the system. If they feel like turning it on, great, otherwise, nope. I know one conductor (who shall remain anonymous) who enjoys editing the route so that interesting announcements are made. He adds every single local stop on the main line to his run, sometimes to Penn Station, other times to Flatbush Ave. Its rather interesting to hear: This is the train to: Flatbush ave; the next station is: New Hyde Park. (a few minutes) This station is: New Hyde Park (speed by New Hyde Park). This is the train to: Flatbush ave; the next station is: Floral Park. And then the same with Queens Village, Hollis, Hillside, and at Jamaica, he turns it off to avoid confusion.
Then again, the error could be in the system, since one time cab car 5013 kept saying 'Friday, Monday, Saturday' in place of the 'ping', of every automated announcement, (not the conductor's announcements, though).
Also, every 30 seconds on one train I had the thing went 'ping-pong', similar to door chimes on the subway.
And lets not forget the times the 'ping' goes off 50 times in a 1 second period, followed by 'ping-pong'.
Ammenities always seem to take a back-seat in maintenance. Unfortunately logical since if you are one car short for service and you have one with door trouble and one with inoperative automated announcements, which do you use? It's hard to say whether the system is unreliable - prone to failure, whether the random failures have led train crews not to rely on it, opting instead for making the announcements or as is my feeling, the repetitive drone is so annoying that the crews just shut them off.
The grafitti-esque "Celebrate the Century Express" Postal Service train is scheduled to be at Hoboken Terminal Sept 16-17.
http://www.usps.gov/ctc/train/where_frame.htm
I'm headed to the Met game on Saturday and want to park my car somewhere in Queens along the #7 line. Any recommendations? Please email me directly at:
jam97@monmouth.com
There are municipal lots at Main Street.
I was thinking, if you could be at the site of a train derailment(s), collision(s) would you be there?
To be at the scene and witness a collision, derailment such as the one at 14st and the one on the Franklin line way back in 1912. How about the NJT collision outside Hoboken?
I always wonder what that would be like.
My dad had been on the Main Line train in that incident, on its inbound trip. He didn't realize it until he looked at the Daily News front page and saw the same cab car he had been on the day before. He also wrote an angry letter to Channel 4, stating that 'Pete Pulumbo'(an interviewed 'rider') was full of $#!%, he claimed 'something made him miss the train, so he was on the next one'. Yeah, was it the next outbound Main Line 3 hours later or the inbound Bergen line 1 hour later, both of which were stopped in their tracks and never made it to /from Hoboken. I believe he also had an M&E line schedule in his pocket.
I have seen all to many collisions/derailments over the past 2 decades. Fortunately, each time, I arrived after the fact. Given the randomness and the enormity of the destruction, I'd say if I must be there, I'd perfer to be late to the 'party'.
I'd want to be in Washington Union Station in 1955 when that GG1 lost its brakes and crashed into the waiting room.
[I'd want to be in Washington Union Station in 1955 when that GG1 lost its brakes and crashed into the waiting room.]
That was 1953, just before Ike's first inauguration.
Well :P
[I was thinking, if you could be at the site of a train derailment(s), collision(s) would you be there?
To be at the scene and witness a collision, derailment such as the one at 14st and the one on the Franklin line way back in 1912. How about the NJT collision outside Hoboken?]
Once place where it wouldn't have been advisable to be was on the platform at the Exchange Place in 1942 when the H&M train derailed while pulling into the station.
I was on an Amtrak train when it hit a car in 1987 near Ashland, Virginia, or more correctly when a car hit it. An old Cougar ran into the side of the lead locomotive, injuring the driver and passenger and delaying us for over an hour. I was also in the cab of a GP-38(?) on a North Carolina shortline RR when it struck a large Oldsmobile (unoccupied and with its gas tank removed) for the filming of an Operation Lifesaver commercial back around 1994 or 1995. We hit that Olds at nearly 40 mph with a ten car train of empty box cars behind us and didn't even feel it. If it hadn't been for the sound and the debris tossed up by the car dragging along the tracks we wouldn't have even known we hit it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The chat will be held tomorrow at 8, NOT SATURDAY. You can come on Saturday and chat, although it won't be officiated by me (unless one of the other ops make one).
Next week, the chat will be at Saturday at 8 as normal.