We were trying to figure out what street and CNJ station had been there before the name change. I believe it was Jackson Avenue. Any of you Jersey City people know for sure?
i check on some old maps and look like it was bergan ave
Bergen Ave. still exists.
Jackson Avenue. By the way, the old station was not Central Railroad but New York and Newark Railroad. The station building still exists on the west side of the street, but to reach the trains, you had to walk down stairs. To be ADA compliant, the station is now at grade.
I checked an old Hudson County map to try to determine what the tower is along the HBLR tracks at Chapel Street. I had thought it might be Tower C where the CNJ Newark line joined the main line. It isn't. The HBLR West Side Ave. Line pretty much follows the ROW of the CNJ Newark Branch. The split from the main line where Tower C was is about the same location near Liberty State Park station where the West Side Ave Line and Bayonne Line split now. The remains of the tower at Chapel Street appear to be where two Lehigh Valley branches join:one running north-south along side the CNJ main line; and one running east into Caven Point. The tower's name I do not know.
Arrived afternoon at Branford because a colleague at my company invited me to a model RxR open (Yonkers Model RxR Club). They had three layout operating: G scale, Linoel & HO, two are permanent layouts.
At Shoreline we were treated to some Model As & the like, which fit right in with trolleys. Private car 316 came out (a Union Ry/3rd Ave) that is in marvelous shape. One of the bench cars also came out on her own power, but she didn't go down the line :-(
Members Day is when non-operating folks get their chance for handle time ... a lot of folks showed up, so my plan was to ride a few cars & leave early, however many left in the early afternoon, so to my great surprise I was able to get a turn driving the BU El Gate Car, 1227 and the IRT R-17. Doug, Lou & Steff all got time on the R-9. Then I hopped on the H&M 503 for what I thought was just a move within the yard limits (the R-17 & H&M were trading places). To my surprise we were treated to ride down the line & back. Inside she's a work in progress, but mechanically she made the round trip without a problem ... nice to know she's still functional !
P.S. It was also great to see a few SubTalkers who are also members, about a dozen in all.
Mr t__:^)
It was a great day. The weather turned out to be sunny ( rain was predicted ). The horseless carriages
was a nice surprise also. Stef gave me a tour of 6688 ( R17 ) and explained the ongoing work being
done ( Thanks Stef ). Meeting up with fellow Subtalkers was also great. We held our own chat room
and talked before boarding the El Gate car for a ride down the line.
Doug, Stef, Lou and myself handled the switches for awhile ( Doug was our radioman ).
I enjoyed getting handle time on the R17 and H&M. An experience that will not be forgotten.
Overall, B.E.R.A did an outstanding performance. The turnout was great along with the food.
Thanks to Jeff H. and the crew at Bradford for a job well done.
Paul :-)
Thank You for coming. Hopefully, you can get together again with myself and the other gentlemen at sometime. Did someone say H and M Car 503 came out? Gosh, I can't believe I left early and missed a great moment!
Regards,
Stef
I'm glad to see you guys had a great time. You went down the line in 503????? Awww shucks, I knew I missed something. It was good to get together with other railfans for the day. I certainly hope to see many of them again.
See Ya at the Next Member's Day.
-Stef
Stef,
There is something you have to see on eBay...
Check eBay 320546621 & 320546624
I hope I have those numbers right, they are your beloved R-17's.
I heard about it. Perhaps I should buy one, paint it up as a redbird and number it 6688, put a trolley pole on it and let her roll. What do you think? Speaking of which, a gentleman came from Mike's Train House to record what will be the proto sounds for the R-21 Set due out at some future time. What did he use to produce the sounds? Why 6688, of course. If the MTH Train sounds like a subway car, then know that it came from 6688! Doors, compressors, motor generators, and so on, all to give life to what should be an interesting R-21 set.
-Stef
-Stef
Good point, Stef.
BTW, some folks will find it odd, but that recording guy is supposedly going to use the motor/traction noises from R-9 #1689 for the Proto Sounds of the MTH O-gauge GG1! Go figure....
Doug aka BMTman
Thurston,
I can't believe that you actually ran 1227! I'd give anything just to be able to ride on it one more time.
It IS quite amazing that this old wooden girl from 1903 is in the shape she is. Even has an old BRT route map inside.
So, mark October 7th or 8th on your calendar, i.e. "Autumn in NY" at Shoreline. Join the museum and let the staff know EARLY on that day that you want you drive the BU Gate car as your welcome prize. Chances would be good if you give them plunty of time to work it out, as the BU mechanically is quite reliable.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, it was a GREAT Member's Day!
I got handle time on 1689, 1227 (the "Luciano car") and much later, 6688 (with a special "thank you" to Steve K for his patience).
Later, both Lou and I got to put trolley cars 775 and 629 to "bed" w/o supervision (we're qualified on those cars). Of course, Thurston & Company were getting hands-on experience with the H&M car and holding up the "lineup" of barn-bound equipment. I gotta admit, it was a most unusual feeling to be working on a railroad in darkness while maneuvoring equipment up and down the line. It sharpens your senses as you have to be more alert than normal for anything that might occur unexpectedly.
It was also good meeting up with Anon E. Mouse, and fellow Brooklynite and Branford "newbie", Paul.
Lou is a bit under the weather right now, so here's a "shout-out" to him: Hey, Lou, fight that bug so you can help sand the roof of 6688 next weekend. I heard Lou S. needs some "real men" for that project!
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Thurston, another operator ( I can't recall his name - certified ) and myself were down the line getting handle time on the H&M. A different handling feeling than the R17. I perfer the R17. But you’re right
about working in the darkness. The H&M had no headlights and a flashlight was used to light up the
roadbed.
But the best view that came out of the darkness was 6688 approach to the yard. It looked like a whole
trainset of R17’s from a distance were waiting for the R9 to clear the track. As the R9 moved towards
the barn, the R17 moved in closer. As the R17 cleared the switches, Doug and Lou went into action
to place 775 and 629 into the barn. The yard was quite active towards the end of the day ( or night )
Quite a sight!
Paul :-)
It was good to see you too, Doug, and Thurston and all the rest of the folks. Jr. and I had a great time ... good thing they had plenty of food at the buffet, he made at least four trips through the line (he's a growing boy, what else can I say). I took the controls of Johnston 357, Third Avenue 629, and Union 316 (hand brakes, no less) and rode 1001 and a couple of other cars. I wanted to ride 1227 but 316 was supposed to follow it down the line so I needed to stay put there (as it turned out, the dispatcher slipped up and waited until it had returned before sending us). We arrived at 10 and didn't leave until after 5:30 for the three-hour run back to Eatontown. Wish we could get up more often but especially during the summer it's not practical.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
nd Union 316 (hand brakes, no less) and rode
1001 and a couple of other cars. I wanted to ride 1227 but 316 was supposed to follow it down the line so I needed
to stay put there (as it turned out, the dispatcher slipped up and waited until it had returned before sending u
Consider yourself privileged! Not many have operated 316.
(Or 503 for that matter)
As for 1227, you must have misunderstood the supervisor's
instructions. When we operate rapid transit cars, they have
an absolute block down the line.
I dont consider myself privileged! I have volunteered at shoreline for two years and have yet been able to operate the regular stuff!!!
Not that I complaining, but I would love to operate anything but,,,
As for 1227, you must have misunderstood the supervisor's instructions. When we operate rapid transit cars, they have an absolute block down the line.
I can certainly understand that, given the power consumption if for no other reason. I have a hard time sorting out what people say when more than one person is talking (even if it's just an unrelated conversation nearby), so I'm sure you're right, I probably did misunderstand the dispatcher. Oh well ... maybe on New York Days this fall ...
316 was an interesting car to operate - indeed, rather than being trickier than the other cars I found it easier to bring it to a smooth stop. Now if only it had a smooth ride :-) The restoration work is incredible though. I was very impressed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I never knew the Museum had a privately-owned trolley car in the collection, until I was introduced to Ron and his son who did the complete resto job on 316.
It certain is an impressive piece of rolling history.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug (& others), 316 is NOT privately owned. Ron gave
the museum clear title to the car several years ago.
Thanks, Jeff.
I stand corrected.
Doug aka BMTman
Ron also had a close partner in the restoration of 316 - Charlie Loinaz. They did much of the work in one of the side barns, and put a lot of their own money into it. Ron does excellent fine detail work. He is the one who paints the gold lettering on the 'Sprague' signs that adorn our main building. Just one of the many tasks that gets done by a volunteer who is not looking for any pats on the back.
We had the opportunity yesterday to test whether the transfer will work with a zero balance. Rosanne and I left Bedford Ave. on the L. The balance on the card at that point was zero. We got off at Sixth Avenue and transferred to a M-14. It worked.
That's great news, maybe they fixed the problem. I've seen a lot fewer data errors lately & asked if it was imagination or did they fix something ... they haven't replyed yet.
Mr t__:^)
Metrocard that have a Zero balance after the last fare is taken off always had the transfer on it. The only time that it dose not have it, is when the person put the card in to a fare box with out look at what is on it and it gose into split fare mod. Then the transfer is then ereased off it.
I never had a problem, as long as you were within 2:18 limit
It is actually 2:18 to 2:23, depending on when dipped/swiped.
In split mode, are all previously encoded trasfers wiped out?
In split mode, are all previously encoded transfers wiped out?
I've recorded some strange sounds from a couple of subway cars, and I don't
know what this sound is. It sounds like the subway car is whining. The pitch
of the sound changes as the doors open and close. I don't know what it is. I
have two samples of this sound. One from an R36, the other from an R68. I've
also heard a similar sound on an R44 and on an R40 slant. I don't know what these
sounds are. If you do, tell me. There are two ways of telling me. First,
you can E-mail me.
Second, post responses here. (In order
to make a post, you need to obtain a password. If you don't have a password, click
here.)
What could these sounds be? Those who subit an idea through the E-mail by
1:00:00 PM EDT on May 12, 2000 will get their name, e-mail address and idea, on an LED
sign to be located above this text. Anyone who submits an idea after this time will
not get that honor. (I reserve the right to change or
omit any text that I consider inappropriate. By this I mean profanity, vulgarity or
any other crude language that any religious organization's leader wouldn't say. This
also includes any submissions that I feel do not answer the question.)
HERE ARE THE MYSTERY SOUNDS
Mystery Sound #1
This is from the R36
WAV, 425K, 39s
Mystery Sound #2
This is from the R68. The sound change fromm the closing doors is drowned out by
the announcement on the PA, but it's there.
WAV, 287K, 26s
I apologize about the way it looks, it came from the HTML source for the latest Subway Sounds 2000 Page. It does get the message across, though. What are those sounds?
I am fairly certain that the r-68 sound is from thier stellar PA systems. I hear that sound alot when I ride them. The r-36 sounds like a similar problem but I do not ride them that much and do not really know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The thing is the sound can be heard on the outside of the car, and the sound changes pitch when the doors move. I don't think it could be the PA. It might be something else on the outside of the car that's causing the sound.
The whining sounds to me like a chopper circuit (solid state DC to AC converter). If the doors are operated by AC motors (I have no idea if they are in these classes of cars), that would explain why the pitch changes when the doors are operated.
When will the 63 street connection be opened? What trains will run in it? I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked
This question gets asked EVERY WEEK. And every week the same answer is given: There is no real published plan, but lots of theories. Wait and see.
Thanks! BTW is it May already?
Arti
When will the 63 street connection be opened? What trains will run in it? I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked
SECOND TIME: This question gets asked EVERY WEEK. And every week the same answer is given: There is no real published plan, but lots of theories. Wait and see.
>I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked <
I don't know. The question does nothing for me.
It does for me, I have my calendar based on it.
Arti
I'm not. Dave, please put something at the top of the board with links to the appropriate FAQ sections for commonly asked questions like what will service be when 63rd Street opens and when will the R142s start running. It is VERY annoying.
Unfortunately I don't have any actual answers to the questions.
Besides, there already is a link to the FAQ at the top of the board.
-Dave
But obviously, no one pays attention to it. I see new posters posting the same thing time and time again. It doesn't occur to them to look there for the answer first.
Obviously, this question, the way it was posed makes it clear that the poster was only seeking to aggravate others.
I say don't satisfy these trolls by posting a response to the elephant dung they post.
I beg your pardon, but the FAQ pages as well as the other sections doesn't answer the question of when the 63rd connection is projected to be opened. You can't blame them for asking this specific question.
If it is, then it is not obvious. I searched the site for 20 minutes and couldn't find the answer to this question.
You can't find because it doesn't exist. There is as of today, May 2, 2000 no published plan from NYCT dealing with the 63rd connection.
Rest assured that as soon as there is something official about the 63rd connection, it will be posted by somebody.
Now that the HBLR is in operation, does anyone have information on the radio frequency the line is using?
Did anyone go on yesterday's walking tour of the West Side Freight Line held by the Transit Museum?
-dave
Yes.
Well.....please tell
Sorry, I didn't have time before. The tour started at 14th St. and 8th Ave. We walked west to the meat -packing area. Our guide, Raanan Geberer, showed us the overhead RR and explained its importance to the meat-packing industry. Where the tracks led into some of the meat plants is obvious. We then walked up 10th Ave. It was evident that the line had several spurs that went directly into other buildings. The line had orginally been at grade level, but was elevated after auto traffic increased. The line became know as the "lifeline" and sometimes the "high-line" of New York. We then walked into the 20s and over to 9th Ave..Raanan then spent a little time on the 9th Ave.El including a mention of the one part of it that was in a tunnel--in the Bronx--in the Polo Grounds Shuttle. Yes, I told him that we had been there. We then walked back to 10th Ave.. The "lifeline" had also been used for passenger service which was evident at the end of the tour at the postal annex on 31st St. which has a plaque commemorating the location of the Hudson River Railroad Terminal whose first passenger was Abraham Lincoln on his way to his inauguration. Lincoln's body was also there for viewing as it made stops along the way to its burial in Illinois. Raanan also mentioned Kevin's Forgotten NY New York Central page two or three times. The tour was interesting, but I think many of us felt it was incomplete without actually walking on the Row itself.
That's too bad, since I thought from reading the literature on the tour, that you WERE going to walk at least on some of the old ROW that is above ground.
Doug aka BMTman
Gents, Ladies a date for your calendar should you be in merry ole' England this month!,
The L A S T "Steam on the Met" event organised by London Underground
will take place over two weekends:
20th & 21st May
27th-28th-29th May
Steam hauled services will operate between Watford and Amersham with
a few early or late services extended from/to Harrow on the Hill.
This event as I mentioned is scheduled to be 'the last' as London
Underground is currently undergoing major restructuring in line with
public-private -partnership (or PPP)so the "buff" events are being shelved for now.
If any subtalkers,perhaps on vacation are in the area on these dates
stop by an visit.
1922 vintage electric locomotive No.12 "sarah siddons" will also be in use (Note this electric loco is actually OLDER than the steam locos!).
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
.
I spent an afternoon at "Steam on the Met" last May. Well worth the time and effort. Your ticket is good for the day; take as many trips as you want! The equipment varies depending on the schedule. You can watch from the platform while the engines do the required "run around" as they change ends and buffer-up to the vintage coaches. "Sarah Siddons" was there last year, along with three steamers.
I presume it will run on at least the original 1863 portion of the Underground.
All collectors: if you haven't seen it, the new card is out as mentioned last week or so. It shore is pertty!
JoeCaronetti
Does anybody know if there were once trolley lines to what are now the Laurelton/Rosedale sections of Queens? I imagine that if there were, they would have originated in downtown Jamaica, but I have no actual information to support that supposition.
There were very few trolley lines that ran completely in Queens. Most were extension of Brooklyn Lines
I note the extensive article in today's NYT on the huge MTA bond issue planned. Will this be good for the proposed big improvements like the Second Ave subway, LaGuardia extension, and LIRR East Side Access?
(I note the extensive article in today's NYT on the huge MTA bond issue planned. Will this be good for the proposed big improvements like the Second Ave subway, LaGuardia extension, and LIRR East Side Access)?
It virtually guarantees that instead of building the Second Avenue Subway, the Transit Authority will return to severe service cutbacks and deferred maintenance after 2004 (actually after 2002, or in the next recession) whichever is first. They are borrowing so much money that they will have to cut the operating budget to fund interest payments, and will be unable to have another capital budget, after 2004. Of all the things that have been done to hurt the future of New York City in the past 20 years, this is the worst.
I see that you have a strong idea about this. Why are they proceeding with this issue if it will screw everything up?
[I see that you have a strong idea about this. Why are they proceeding with this issue if it will screw everything up?]
Because they're a bunch of crooks. From one of the two articles in the Times, this one on the conflict of interest between Bear Sterns's role as financial adviser to the MTA and an underwriter of a deal that will net investment banks about $100,000,000:
Some Long Island politicians grumbled that Bear Sterns's actions were ethically questionable. Critics were already asserting that Bear Stearns's role as a major financial supporter of Senator Alfonse M. D'Amato and the state Republican Party had helped it secure its closeness to the Power Authority. Federal prosecutors ended an inquiry into those allegations last year without issuing any findings.
In the end, authority officials insisted that the firm won the role of lead underwriter because it had the best presentation -- thanks in part, some conceded, to its superior advance knowledge of the deal.
Because no one is held directly accountable for the MTA, and the damage will be felt in the future when those making these decisions are gone.
Pataki hates the city, cut off state tax dollars for the MTA capital plan (but not state tax dollars for roads), then tilted the remaining resources toward the commuter railroads. Giuliani cut city funding for the MTA (and for transportation in general), then the City Council cut it more. Dinkins had already cut it. And it was already below the U.S. local government average.
Then there is the fare. The transit workers will be earning more, but riders won't be paying more. The result, a growing operating deficit which is being funded by extremely high Wall Street tax payments dedicated in the MTA. When the stock market turns down. People on this board take the long view, and are willing to accept fare increases that keep up with inflation. They know the results of "save the fare" politicing in the past -- decline.
Sheldon Silver is the enenmy of the people of New York City. Pakaki and Bruno are also the enemies, but they don't pretend otherwise.
Hmmm.. well, I realize that Pataki's main political allegiances are not in NYC. But NYC is today perhaps the most economically vital portion of NYS. This was the case historically as well, until the late 1960's when NYC began its modern existential crisis. It is now possible to see a new NYC emerging. Economically based on producing intellectual content. A first rate transit system is surely an essential part of that economic vision. And the suburban regions need this NYC to emerge as much as NYC itself does. So, let's face it, the intra-regional bashing is not really in anyone's best long-term interests. Even Upstate cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and Binghamton are likely to benefit from NYC's resurgence (if it can be sustained.)
At some point, if the MTA plan goes forward, Albany and City Hall will be forced to resume their subsidies. This will be driven by the election cycle. In the interrim the bond houses will make big commissions off the bond sales, and make susbstantial election contributions to the candidates who sent them the business.
I just hope that the big projects somehow can proceed. While I am not certain that the LaGuardia extension is justified, the others surely are.
[Hmmm.. well, I realize that Pataki's main political allegiances are not in NYC. But NYC is today perhaps the most economically vital portion of NYS. This was the case historically as well, until the late 1960's when NYC began its modern existential crisis. It is now possible to see a new NYC emerging. Economically based on producing intellectual content. A first rate transit system is surely an essential part of that economic vision. And the suburban regions need this NYC to emerge as much as NYC itself does. So, let's face it, the intra-regional bashing is not really in anyone's best long-term interests. Even Upstate cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and Binghamton are likely to benefit from NYC's resurgence (if it can be sustained.)
At some point, if the MTA plan goes forward, Albany and City Hall will be forced to resume their subsidies. This will be driven by the election cycle. In the interrim the bond houses will make big commissions off the bond sales, and make susbstantial election contributions to the candidates who sent them the business.
I just hope that the big projects somehow can proceed. While I am not certain that the LaGuardia extension is justified, the others surely are.]
It seems to me that the state's policies are even harder on upstate communities than NYC. The type of business that locates in Manhattan is less cost sensitive than the manufacturing businesses that have left upstate New York. A fair structure of taxes and services, more in line with the national average, would benefit both upstate and downstate communities.
Yes, as a former resident of Buffalo, I agree that NYS's policies and politics are often hard on upstate communities. Unfortunately, there has been a culture in NYS favoring an approach of always trying to screw the other guy. Of course, this means that you yourself get screwed when the other guy (or region) wins. If everyone in NY would just pay a little more attention to reasonable local approaches, and a little less to trying to get someone else to pay for local benefits, the state would have a healthier political culture. By the way, Senator Schumer has paid a lot of attention to trying to improve the upstate economy. Of course, this is good politics as well as good policy. See today's Buffalo News (www.buffalonews.com) for an article on Buffalo's economic development pitch at a recent NYC business meeting. Schumer addressed the group and discussed upstate business development. I am very impressed by Schumer. Too bad I now live in Chicago, so I can't vote for him.
[Yes, as a former resident of Buffalo, I agree that NYS's policies and politics are often hard on upstate communities. Unfortunately, there has been a culture in NYS favoring an approach of always trying to screw the other guy. Of course, this means that you yourself get screwed when the other guy (or region) wins. If everyone in NY would just pay a little more attention to reasonable local approaches, and a little less to trying to get someone else to pay for local benefits, the state would have a healthier political culture. By the way, Senator Schumer has paid a lot of attention to trying to improve the upstate economy. Of course, this is good politics as well as good policy. See today's Buffalo News (www.buffalonews.com) for an article on Buffalo's economic development pitch at a recent NYC business meeting. Schumer addressed the group and discussed upstate business development. I am very impressed by Schumer. Too bad I now live in Chicago, so I can't vote for him.]
I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why I like the idea of parity with national averages--it provides an easy formula to bring the entire state's expenditures and services under control.
PS--I just read the article you mentioned. There's something very sad about a pitch that essentially goes "businesses will start to relocate to New York State because they're running out of labor elsewhere and gee, look at all the money those states have to spend to build roads and stuff, plus we've lowered our taxes more than any other state even though our combined state and local taxes are still the highest in the continental United States."
From the article:
Schriner said the state's tax structure remains a looming impediment to attracting new or expanding businesses. He noted that he recently talked with officials from one company in Central New York who are planning to relocate out of state largely because of New York's onerous tax burden.
But Governor George E. Pataki, who gave a welcoming speech at Monday's opening ceremonies, told a standing-room-only crowd that state taxes have been slashed by $97 billion since 1995.
"We're cutting taxes far more than any other state in America," said Pataki. "You don't have to look very far to see that is a dramatically different state than it was five or six years ago."
La Guardia? In most studies for potential transit projects, a major EMPLOYMENT center is a key potential destination. In turn just watch intercity passengers at Penn get off ATK and transfer to the subway.
[La Guardia? In most studies for potential transit projects, a major EMPLOYMENT center is a key potential destination. In turn just watch intercity passengers at Penn get off ATK and transfer to the subway.]
The problem is that it would be cheaper to give everybody who goes to Laguardia free taxi rides than to extend the subway. I happen to agree that the project is justified, though, because it will improve airport access for business travellers.
Yes and Southern Pacific said the same about what is now called CalTrain when they still operated it in a manner to make Prendergast proud--BUT twenty years and some improvements to service later the ridership is close to the records from WWII, and growing each month. So how many LaGuardia employees live within the 5 boros anyway?
[Yes and Southern Pacific said the same about what is now called CalTrain when they still operated it in a manner to make Prendergast proud--BUT twenty years and some improvements to service later the ridership is close to the records from WWII, and growing each month. So how many LaGuardia employees live within the 5 boros anyway?]
I'm not sure, but it's presumably a sizeable percentage.
What's amazing about Laguardia is the extraordinarily high demographics of the patrons.
But I'm getting decidedly lazy about digging out facts and figures that have already been posted (or decidedly short of time). Maybe at some point I'll put everything I have up on a web page, because the same issues seem to come up every month or two.
[Sheldon Silver is the enenmy of the people of New York City. Pakaki and Bruno are also the enemies, but they don't pretend otherwise.]
I don't understand Sheldon Silver. He has the power to block this crap--what's his angle?
The Silver Leaf Third Rail endeavored to reach beyond New York and so does the May 2000 edition at rapidtrasit.net which describes the rapid conversion of the Philadelphia system at mid-century from trolleys to buses (National City Lines yet again again).
Also, an unusual item for the bus fans.
Hope you like it.
Neat bus photo (and I'm not a bus fan). The PTC article is a good summary but, at least for me, didn't contain any new information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first trip to Philadelphia was in 1958 just (sigh) after the damage was done. I missed out on Willow Grove run, but I did get to ride the Ardmore car (not PTC, not NCL). Just as an aside, the Ardmore station is still there, and the retail business within is now a pizzeria. My wife (who's from the area) didn't realize that the popular pizza spot was an ex-trolley station until I pointed out the platform shed to her.
Until this article I didn't realize how fast the ax fell or by what a short time I missed it all.
A Motorman on the 7 during the week, and the 2 on weekends said that starting on memorial day, the 2 and 5 will be reversed. No not with their terminals, but with their characteristics. The 2 will be going down Track M, and the 5 will be making local stops in the Bronx, all times except nights, something like the E and F in queens! Is this true?
Eh? The change in patterns of service is supposed to be in effect only during the rush hours. All service frim 238th and 241 Sts via M Track, and all service from Dyre Av operates via the Local Track.
-Stef
I think it would be a great idea. I can't imagine someone who lives in the 241st or 238th area having to travel entirely local if they want to go down the west side.
Service from Dyre will go down the local track in the AM rush and up the local in the PM rush. Service from 241 and 238 will run on M track from north of E. 180 St to south of Jackson Ave during the AM/ PM rush. The service changes will go into effect on Monday, June 5.
I took a ride on the F and E lines today, because those are my home lines. However, I dunno how the Express service works. I was on the F, and the E was local to queens at 2:15 PM this afternoon. Isn't it supposed to be Express? Also, the E was on the local Tracks on the Manhattan bound side. Can someone tell me how this schedule works? Also, an F was ordered by the Tower to go express from Continental because of lateness. Does this mean the F will go on the express on the Middle tracks on Hillside, or will it switch over before that? But there are no Crossovers before that.
HOW DOES THIS WORK?
The E and F are my home lines, too. The "normal" E/F service pattern is thus:
Weekday daylight hours (Both peaks and Middays):
E via Express Queens Plaza thru to Archer
F via Express west of 71 Av, Local east of 71 Av
Evenings, Weekends:
Both via Express west of 71 Av, Local east of 71 Av (due to use of "outer zone" express tracks for storage)
Overnight:
Both via Local
Deviations from the official pattern are by general order (a frequent weekend phenomenon) or to resolve a service problem. If E's were local WEST of 71st Avenue at 2:15 PM on a weekday, then the G and/or R had problems. If E's were local EAST of 71st Avenue, then maybe the tower made an error, or maybe there was some midday storage onthe express tracks.
The F runs local east of Continental, whereas the E runs express during the day. However the E sometimes will run local east of Continental if the express tracks are either blocked by laid-up trains (nights &weekends) or trains are coming in/out of the Jamaica Yard. This is true for the Manhattan-bound E after 10AM on weekdays. It runs local for about an hour because the express tracks are used by dozens of rush hour trains being taken out of service and getting sent into the yard.
Why does the sign say it runs express from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm weekdays, yet most of the time eastbound express is from 8:AM to 8:PM and westbound express is from 6:AM to 6:PM?
It gets better. When the Archer Ave. line opened, the E was listed on maps and station signs as running express east of Continental at all times. BUZZZZZ!!! During nights and weekend, it ran local as it always had. Not that it's such a big deal; it meant stopping at 75th Ave. and Van Wyck Blvd.
Just got back from seeing this movie about a priest and a rabbi in love with their old childhood girlfriend. They ride the subway twice in the movie. I could not see the rollsign or determine the class of car that was shown. Can any of you sub-talkers shed some light on this if you have seen the movie?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
I saw it too. The one sceen that took place in the 70's? (the one with the kids) took place in what looks like an R-32, signed up as an 'R'.
I don't remember the 2nd sceen, which on was it
Thanks, I forgot the first scene with the kids, but there was a second and third scene with either the rabbi or the priest riding the subway.
Chuck Greene
"either the rabbi or the priest riding the subway."
I never heard that one, how does it go? and what happened to the minister? and don't these things usually involve bars?
No, I was just trying to point out one of the main characters was riding the subway in two different scenes. It wasn't a joke like, the "priest, the rabbi and the minister....... "
Thanks for the humor, anyway -very good!
Chuck Greene
Oh, phooey. I had my finger on the rim shot button.
i am seriously considering collecting signatures to get on the ballot for this year's senatorial race...
i am starting a new party... the right to laugh party
i feel that the right to laugh is being infringed upon by the vast majority of people who take themselves too seriously...
if i am elected by the people of new york state i promise to make this state the laughingstock of the entire nation...
In that case the official seal of NY State should be changed to an image of Moe, Larry & Curly ("Hello!....hello!.......hello!).
And it would be fitting that at every press conference after ten mintues of speaking it should degenerate into a spontaneous pie throwing contest...
any thoughts...
Why, soitanly!:-) Not to mention face slapping, eye poking, and anything else the Three Stooges were known for.
Of course, if Hillary were to be elected, the state would become the laughingstock of the country in another way.
What are your campaign promises about public transportation? I'm not concerned about NY's sense of humor. I'd change the party name tot he Right to Laugh on the Subway party. All my friends say you can't do anything. I met a friend at the T2 bus stop and he said how he was reading the rules for riding the bus and they made it seem all you could do was sit and stare.
Isn't that what Rudy is doing?
If you get elected senator, the state will be like a huge zoo. Mental outpatients will roam free searching the streets for food (while laughing and taking the subway). The third rail cover will be removed and the voltage will be upped to 22 kV DC--like mainline catenary power in Europe (except in DC). This'll keep the morons away from the trains. A railroad causeway could be built across the Hudson to link the HBLR to NY so mental outpatients from the Jersey City Medical Center and Ward's Island Psychiatric can mingle. Certain highways will be converted to rail. The people suffering from the ensuing traffic rill abandon their cars and take the train. Railfans should get government positions and control all the other aspects of society. And of course the Redbird fleet will be upgraded to maglevs (but still preserved)and so will the tunnel tracks. A 150 mph levitating Redbird is what THIS city needs!
LOL
Daniel ;-)
How about Levitating Lardbuckets doing 150 mph? Now, THAT'S a knee slapper!
if i am elected by the people of new york state i promise to make this state the laughingstock of the entire nation...
Too Late!
i just received an e-mail from someone far down in the switching speed party offering me their endorsement... their entire platform rests on having all subway car controllers wired down to two positions: off and switching speed... this would have immediate benefits... all complicated and expensive controllers could be replaced by a cheap toggle switch which could be bought right off the rack at radio shack... the reduced maximum speed of the cars to 4 mph would slash power consumption by 90%, reduce wear and tear on the cars and tracks, and turn the current average one way commute time of 45 minutes to approximately 3 hours, thus resulting in the work place being shifted to the subways... all subway cars would have computer workstations installed so that people could accomplish a full day's work on their way to work...
i am also courting the endorsement of the flat wheel party... if i can get the endorsement of several of these fringe parties, i feel i can offer a definite alternative to the mainstream party choices...
Boo! Hiss!
You might as well have bicycle pedals as a means of propulsion if the trains are going to be that slow. Hey, now that's a thought: install pedals at every seat, so the more passengers you have, the more pedal power you get. Good for those CPR express runs, don't you know. Not to mention getting a good aerobic workout..
Kind of reminds me of a joke I heard from a high school English teacher regarding slaves on a rowboat.
The slave master comes to them and says, "I've got some good news and some bad news. The good news is you get a 30-minute break. The bad news: after that, the captain wants to go water skiing." When the teacher got to the water skiing part, she burst out laughing.
Has anyone heard any new information regarding the old LIRR Rockaway line. Do NIMBY's still rule the day?
[Has anyone heard any new information regarding the old LIRR Rockaway line. Do NIMBY's still rule the day?]
The last serious proposal to reopen the line was a few years ago and involved using it for Kennedy Airport service. It didn't get far and before long was dropped in favor of the Van Wyck Airtrain route. Any proposals since then have been nothing but idle chatter.
Last I heard its been abandoned since the early sixties.
Abandoned in 1962. Looked at as a way of connecting LaGuardia and JFK airports to Manhattan during the 1980"s and 1990's then forgotten about and replaced with the silly elevated LRT over the Van Wyck to LIRR in downtown Jamaica thing. What a great resource the alignment is.....Could relieve terrible traffic on Woodhaven and Cross Bay Blvds. Could provide a much more direct connectioon than the Van Wyck thing! Opinions????
You are correct, but in the political world thats not always enough.
avid
It's absolutely the best way for the airport link.
Just add a connection with the Atlantic Ave. line to Brooklyn, Jamaica and east to LI, and
I meant to say: Just add connections with the Atlantic Ave. line for service to Brooklyn, Jamaica and eastern LI, and reopen Whitepot Junction in Rego Park for service to Penn Station, and you would have the perfect JFK link.
Maybe that's the problem - it's too good!
I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the
history of public transportation!
Agreed! Airtrain is a waste of untold proportions, even by New York standards. Would anybody like to comment on who the ridership will be? Would anybody like to comment on the thinking of the Port Authority?
05/02/2000
Re: The abandoned LIRR Rockaway line.
I'll sum this up simply:
This is the best idea for a one seat ride to Manhattan.
Transit enthusiasts (railfans) agree this is the best idea.
The Port Authority is not interested in using this ROW.
The MTA probably isn't interested in using this ROW.
The NIMBY's who reside along the line don't want it.
The Rockaway Line idea is dead. AIRTRAIN is the final solution.
Good ideas always die young in New York! This is what I observe.
Bill Newkirk
"The final solution"? Where have I heard that phrase before?
Especially on yesterdays date. Holocost Memorial
Thinking?
[I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the history of public transportation!]
LOL, for that $1.5 billion, we're getting a speedy, one-seat ride from JFK airport to JFK airport! It's truly the train to nowhere.
*But,* and here's the big but, the state and the PA are looking for a private partner to provide one seat access to Penn. They'll still have wasted several hundred million dollars on the Van Wyck extension and the Jamaica station, but at least we'll have a service that someone other than Pedro the night watchman will use.
>>I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the
history of public transportation! <<<
Know what? Let's not pronounce the corpse deceased until we've had a chance to see if it's twitching. I'll ride Airtrain when it opens, and make my opinion known then. But I won't comment till then. I'd've preferred the Rock link, but the local yokels will never let that happen.
www.forgotten-ny.com
As opposed to the 2nd Ave STUBway and other projects that never got out of the planning stage the AirTrain is being built as we speak here all the way to Jamaica. That means that a ROW and track will exist. If it does produce the traffic & kind of customers that the Port Auth thinks, THEN we can hope/push for them to do something better with it.
Even though I too think the old Rockaway branch would have made better since, there just ain't no way it's ever going to happen now that the ROW is taking another route. So, what's the use of continuing to beat a dead horse ?????
Mr t__:^)
I have found several uses the residents along the line (N. of Metropolitan) have discovered:
1 - Dumping Ground
2 - Picnicing area
3 - Place to think and reflect while sitting on 3rd rail
4 - Place to hike
5 - Secret passage to get to various streets (every cross street has a way up the embankment or a hole in the fence, check out Dartmouth)!
6 - Bleacher space for little league games
7 - Place to let little kids explore while parents watch their other kids play on the little league team.
8 - Backyard extensions.
In short, local opposition would be high.
Questions: What is that really long bedsheet doing there?
Why are there tons of trees blocking the track to the tunnel under the main line(more tha usual)?
What happened to the bridge over the Lower Montauk?
Why are some ties in almost usable condition, while others are incredibly rotted (good one right next to 3 rotten ones). Even the newest ties in the last replacement should have rotted by now!
Where's the ballast?
[What happened to the bridge over the Lower Montauk?]
That's a good question - I've wondered that myself. It's been gone for as long as I can remember.
way way back the use of cinders for ballast was very common , but the cinder size was small so it compacted between the blue stone gravel.
A fan trip and exploratory dig must be planned.
avid
A good candidate for criminals doing community service , clean it up!
avid
The connection to Atlantic Avenue going westbound is still there; all that needs to be done is to rebuild the crossover. It never went eastbound. Perhaps a connection going eastbound could be established with the Montauk Line further up the way.
The Airtrain is a boondoggle. Nothing more. It is utterly useless. I can't picture anybody coming from Manhattan being willing to use it.
The bloody NIMBYS - a pox on all their houses; and flat tires for all those school buses that have stolen half the Woodhaven station.
Wayne
How come everyone can knock Salaam for knocking the R142 because no one has ridden it yet but all the same people are knocking Airtrain without giving it the same chance they say we should give t the R142?
1) Because there are a lot of us and only one of him?
2) Because he has annoyed so many of us in so many other ways?
3) Because the complaints about Airtrain are based, in part, on facts that are already known, such as its route?
4) Because New Yorkers wouldn't be happy unless we're complaining about something?
05/03/2000
Sorry Jeff, Although I haven't knocked knocked Salaam for his R-142 views, I do however knock AIRTRAIN for it's routing. The abandoned LIRR Rockaway line was ignored and a $5.00 ride will take you to Jamaica station and not midtown Manhattan!
But the AIRTRAIN people are saying this leaves an opening for a ONE SEAT RIDE to Manhattan. That's a promise with no teeth as far as I'm concerned. Remember the last time New York had a promise like that? "We're going to tear down that rusty old Second Avenue elevated and replace it with a subway!" Wasn't that some 70 years ago?
Bill Newkirk
I remember a one seat ride, it was called the Train to the Plane, opps sorry you had to take a shuttle bus to the train, just like in Boston and other places.
[But the AIRTRAIN people are saying this leaves an opening for a ONE SEAT RIDE to Manhattan. That's a promise with no teeth as far as I'm concerned. Remember the last time New York had a promise like that? "We're going to tear down that rusty old Second Avenue elevated and replace it with a subway!" Wasn't that some 70 years ago?]
Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.
05/04/2000
[Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.]
So one man has the state, the PA and the airlines behind him? And AIRTRAIN will be a TWO seat ride?
Something's fishy here!
Bill Newkirk
I've walked through some parts of the former LIRR Rockaway line at around Forest Park, and it is pretty neat. Trees and shrubs grow through the tracks and thrid rail. I was thinking that it would a neat field trip to explore the rest of the abandoned ROW up to the point where the A joins it. I think a metalworker created a giant iron spider that he suspended from a signal mast (it can be seen from the A to Lefferts on the left side). Would anyone be interested in this?
Daniel
It's been done. Recently. Probably will be done again.
[[Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.]
So one man has the state, the PA and the airlines behind him? And AIRTRAIN will be a TWO seat ride? Something's fishy here!]
Your guess is as good as mine. But I gather that the two seat ride was some kind of compromise just to get the damn thing built. For one thing, I don't think it's legal to use airport fees to finance a non-dedicated line--i.e., you can spend lots of money to run a dedicated line all the way to a City, but you aren't allowed to save money. There's something else about the airport having to be the terminating line. I also heard something about NJ PA representatives blocking the one seat ride at one point (rather than offering a one seat ride to EWR too, instead of that braindead monorail). Damn bureaucrats! Also, there was some airline opposition--they don't want to attract skells to the airport.
Now the PA is looking for a private company to offer one seat service. That, I imagine, is a way to get around the Federal regs.
Airport improvements are funded by Passenger Facilities Charges (PFC's) which are actually a surcharge tacked onto the price of every airline ticket. These monies are intended for aviation related costs and improvements. The airlines get to approve any uses to which these are put. They do not want to get into a position of having these airport funds used for mass transit purposes. It was reportedly a struggle even to get approval for the line to Jamaica. As far as the PA struggle, from what has been reported in the Times, there is outright warfare going on between NY and NJ. I think maybe it is time to dissolve the whole PA and replace it with a new organization. The NY advocates certainly make it seem like NJ does disproportionately well off the present arrangement.
In my case, #3 is true. How can they be so short-sighted?
Imbeciles. Morons. Chowderheads.
wayne
ALL school busses should get flat tires, they should also thoroughly burn (asssuming no people inside or nearby) and disintegrate into a wad of twisted steel.
Or tunnel to the IND Queens line. I forget which station has the tunnel stubs for the "eastern" crosstown line...
The tunnel stubs are e of Jamaica Center Station On the E Line. There are simular track stubs e of Euclid Avenue Station On A Line That Continue east under pitkin avenue Past Pitkin Yard tracks to the Brooklyn City Line.
They actually run under the center mall dividing North and South Conduit avenue. This line had been planned to run under or over Linden Blvd to the Queens/Nassau boarder.
Ithink it would have been eaiser to run the line under or open cut on the grass mall between North conduit and Belt Parkway all the way to Rosedale!
avid
There has been several threads on this subject recently, even a "Field Trip" down the line ... search by keyword to get a load of input.
Mr t__:^)
Something interesting was covered on last night's "Extra" TV program: they did a piece on the youth of "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" host Regis Philbin. They showed his high school and the block where he lived (the house he was born and raised in was shown -- I believe Kevin Walsh has a shot of it at his www.forgotten-ny.com site).
Of interest to railfans was a bit where the reporter interviewed one of his Bronx-buddies who embarrassingly mentioned that as kids Regis and some of his friends got arrested for placing stones on the tracks of the elevated line (they didn't mention which one, but I'd guess it was the Pelham line?). They did it in anticipation of watching the rocks "shoot out" as a train went over them, but didn't realize the danger they could have done if this "trick" didn't work out as planned.
Quite an interesting piece.
Anyone else catch this last night?
Doug aka BMTman
Which high school did Regis Philbin go to? Someone said it was the same one *I* graduated from.....
05/02/2000
[Of interest to railfans was a bit where the reporter interviewed one of his Bronx-buddies who embarrassingly mentioned that as kids Regis and some of his friends got arrested for placing stones on the tracks of the elevated line (they didn't mention which one, but I'd guess it was the Pelham line?). They did it in anticipation of watching the rocks "shoot out" as a train went over them, but didn't realize the danger they could have done if this "trick" didn't work out as planned.]
Doug,
Wouldn't it be funny if they slipped this question on "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
[OK now are you ready to try for $100,000 ?]
As a child yours truly would place the following on the rail of the track in elevated station near his Bronx home:
(A) a subway token
(B) a rock
(C) a cheeseburger
(D) a goldfish
.......You know Reeg!...I'm going to have to use a life line......can I call my friend heypaul!.......
Bill Newkirk
LOL
I heard on the news that when the service changes in the Bronx go into effect, only 7 trains will be stopping at the local stations with the #5 as opposed to 12 trains with the # 2. The # 2 will now run at 108% capacity as opposed to its present 98%
The service changes are supposed to alleviate overcrowding and congestion. I'm sorry - I didn't major in math in college. But HOW EXACTLY are these numbers proving that congestion will be alleviated?
And another thing - WHY are there TWO #5's? Why not make the #5's on the White Plains Road line go local? Are we to assume that the people on the Dyre Avenue line have no where to go in the morning? This will add an additional 15 minutes of ride time to a train that doesn't all that frequently to begin with.
I have ridden both the East side and West side lines - the East side line gets VERY crowded south of 149th. To add more passengers to a line (Dyre #5) that runs every 15-20 min during rush hour makes no sense. Whoever doesn't believe this should take a ride on the southbound # 5 in the morning. Passengers are packed in like sardines most times even before 180th Street. If you want to make such a drastic service change, why not add more Dyre #5 trains?
Look at the track map of the area around East 180th Street.
When this change goes into effect, all trains going to/from Bronx Park East will use the crossovers just south of the station, and arrive/depart E 180 on the center track. The delays are caused when Dyre Avenue trains cross over the local tracks to/from the center track at E 180.
When the change goes into effect, maybe they'll hold the Dyre 5 local trains for the arriving 2/5 express trains.
["When the change goes into effect, maybe they'll hold the
Dyre 5 local trains for the arriving 2/5 express trains."]
I'd like to offer the following:
Observation 1... Holding the express negates the time savings offered by express operation. Why go express to save 5 minutes if you're going to lose 4 of those minutes waiting for a local?
Observation 2... In general, holding trains during rush hours results in a net DISBENEFIT - it punishes large numbers of riders for already being on the train, while helping only a few people who are not. For every person who benefits (by not having to wait for the next train), at least 10 other people on the held train are delayed. Who is more important?
Observation 3... If every train must be held, there must be TOO MUCH RUNNING TIME.
In general, during rush hours, trains are not held to make connections - at least by TA people; riders are another story. Every time we don't hold for a connection, someone complains; anytime we do make the connection, someone complains. Net result - forget about connections.
As for Observation 3, if anything during rush hours there is not enough running time for 2 service. Rush hour running time is scheduled at 2 minutes longer than midday service ( or in prior years, than midnight service). Because of trains being crossed in front of me, my first trip on the 2 as a TO, I was already 13 minutes late by the time I got to 149 St/ GC, starting from 241.
wel to repsond to the the point you made about the east side and the additional riders onthe 5 line you are right. But look at all the talkt about building an extension of the LIRR and linking it to the Lexington avenue line BEFORE introducing the 2nd avenue line. sounds pretty retarded doesn't it? cutting local service saves them money so to be honest there attitude to those riders is they really don't have any other resources to look to. Oh, and don't even think that they will really do any serious schedule adjustments o even add on more # 4 service on the east side or 3# service on the west side to make up for the gaps.Yeah it will allow 2 trains to pass but I don't see to amy people complainig about how long they have to wait on the trai nto get off at their stop as opposed to those who will have to wait on one to show up.New York One did a study on the # 5 an the service north of 180th was terrible because there was not enough service well it going to get worse.So if you look at it from a business they standpoint they took what was Benificial for only them and basically screwwed with son=mething that was not a problem as some may make it out to be . i mean what would you want a train to be held for 2 minutes but will show up or no trai nat all? those people out there are getting a royale screwing
question is there a transfer to the # 4 near this area ( s) and or stations ( s) ??
Not until Mott Avenue, quite a ways down the line.
Of course, you could always get the BX9 at East Tremont or go up to Pehlam Pkway to get the BX12 but who's going to fight their way across the Bronx on a bus just to catch another subway train?
Wayne
...........oh well thought there was a transfer point at the 149th or someting like that station !!!
Yes there is. I have no idea why Mr. SlantR40 chooses the old name to answer a modern informational question
Mott Avenue=Old name for 149th Street/Grand Concourse.
If all White Plains Road trains from 241 or 238 are going to run express south of 180St, and only the Dyre Ave. trains will run local south of 180th St., then apparently there is low passenger count at stations between 149 St. and 180 St. and huge demand north of 180th on W.P.Rd.
Dyre Avenue passengers have similar service to before because at 180 St. they can get a train every 2 minutes running express. W.P.Rd passengers will have better service, because instead of 2/3 of their trains being local and them all getting off at 180 St to get an express, all of their trains will be express.
All the discussion of service south of 149 St. is unnecessary because people switch trains to get what they want at 149 St. and 180 St. anyway.
Really, the only big change is that people along Westchester Avenue south of 180 St. are getting half the rush hour service they used to get, but it is the same rush hour service that people get on the M line, many J/Z stops, the F south of Kings Highway, the B south of Bay Parkway, the G in Brooklyn, etc. And people at 174 and W.Farms Sq can always take a northbound train (one every 90 seconds) and get an express at 180 St. I think that is the only raw deal on the line, people at 5 stops suddenly getting less rush hour service. Everybody north of 180 St. on either line gets improved or barely changed rush hour service.
i am very gratified to announce the support of my bid to be the next senator of new york from the following groups:
1) railfan enthusiasts of sheepshead bay
2) railairconditioner enthusiasts of sheepshead bay
3) sounds of the r-9's preservation society
4) sheepshead bay chapter of railfans anonymous
5) kings county survivors of psychosis support group
.... I SECOND YOUR NOMINATION............applause!!!!!.......applause!!!.......
The procastenators Society has yet to endorse a candidate
avid
A platform must be built, on a salvaged R/33 single. The better to tour the state. Your opinions on Beruit, and just he was a good ball player for a white dude. Your opinions on the Abortion bill, not wether or not it was paid. Your stand on capital punishment and the rest of the state as well.
We must curry favor and rice is nice too.
Let the pundits beware as well as the pundnots. Vote and often
avid
Very funny, avid....LOL!!!
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
......... I second the nomination for heypaul..................... applause !!! .......... applause !!!......
Also the James Madison High School, Brooklyn New York class of 1960 Reunion Committee of the World
So, I haven't been able to keep up on the messages since last Wednesday, and now there are about 1300 new messages I have yet to even scan for interest. Never again shall I upgrade 2 computers simultaneously, no matter how easy it is...
Can anyone tell me if I missed any interesting threads?
-Hank
[So, I haven't been able to keep up on the messages since last Wednesday, and now there are about 1300 new messages I have yet to even scan for interest. Never again shall I upgrade 2 computers simultaneously, no matter how easy it is...
Can anyone tell me if I missed any interesting threads?]
Let's see ...
There have been ongoing threads about R-68 hatred, abandoned movie theaters, comparisons of European vs. US passenger rail equipment, and filthy LIRR trains, to name a few that I've been following. Aside from some criticism of the MTA bond issue, there haven't been too many political/economic discussions. And oh yes, Salaamallah has been spouting his typical nonsense.
don't forget avid's stories and heypaul's senator campaign run
Thanks for the the positive mention, I was afraid I was posting for my own enjoyment. I guess I know how a cook feels when nobody say anything.
avid
Thanks....doesn't look like I missed much new, then.
-Hank :)
Mechanik doesn't seem to be working on my computer. I downloaded Mechanik, Mechanik Deluxe, Both the English and Duch version and it still doesn't work. Whenever I press the right door close/open, left door close/open, and the door chime buttion the game frezses. Also when I download different routes it comes out really messed up. I have a new computer, with windows 98, Pentium III, and I don't know what to do! HELP!!!
I forgot to mention that on the main menu it says options but you can select it.
I have the same as you but with a Pentium II and it works fine.
I also noticed the thing w/ the options. What is up with that?
Well, I have a Pentium 120 with 32 MB RAM on Windows 98 Pre-release Beta 3, and it runs great, though when I use door open and close as well as door chime it freezes for half a second, but that's just because of my weak processor. To load other maps you must dump everything for that map into the Mechanik folder and overwrite files (make sure you save a copy of the layout you're replacing, the BMPs as well as TRASA.DAT).
It says options in English? I have the pure Polish version.
The English version is at http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/SimMechanik/ go there and click on download and they have a patch to turn eveything to english.
My game also stops for half a second, then it starts up again but i can't press anything.
BTW, there is no Options menu, it's a fluke from the programers
A use for the Options menu:
Speed Measurement: MPH km/h
Distance Measurement: Miles Kilometers Chaining
It never shows up. How can I get it to work?
I think his saying ehat it could be used for.
That's right!
Since there is no options menu, do they force users to use the infinitely superior km and km/h measurements?
1. Those were suggestions.
2. My idea is that, from the programmer's point of view, since Poland uses the Metric system, Metric is better.
How could you still have the Windows 98 Beta? Did you set the clock on your computer for before 12/31/98?
No, I replaced IO.SYS with the one from the real version.
That's not bad... I have a Pentium MMX 200Mhz running Windows 98. When I start Mechanik my system crashes. I have to Start Windows and boot into DOS to run the game. If it freezes you should try this. Remember that you need to have MS-DOS sound drivers for the sounds effects in MS-DOS.
Does anybody remember a scrapped Long Island Railroad electric car that was visible from Shea Stadium and the Van Wyck? How did it get there? It was removed years ago; not exactly sure when.
Welcome to a new poster. As mentioned several weeks ago, there is a cut-off from the Port Washington Line that used to go up into Whitestone. That is how the car probably got there. That section of track has been used before for that purpose. I remember in the early 70's some of the old double-deckers were kept there and then fell on their sides after rails shifted because of a heavy rain.
Also, some of the old heavyweight parlor cars were scrapped there as well. I also remember in 1979 or 1980 seeing a pair of burned M-1's -- I believe those were 9175/9176.
I think 175/6 was the pair that burned roughly a month after delivery.
That's the ones......
I think the experimental turbine car burned and were disposed of at that location. The time frame fits.
avid
No, these were definitely 9175-9176, which were M-1's that burned when they were VERY new. I just checked some slides and at one end, the car numbers show up. No sign of the gas turbine car there. Just these two M-1's, some old heavyweight parlors, and a couple MP54 types.
The experimental gas turbine car (GT-1) went on to become the gas turbine-electric (GT-2), which was the test car for the 4000-series turbine/electric M-1 type trains.
That was the original #9625, wrecked at Babylon, cut in two and dumped in that spot. Last I saw it there was summer of 1982.
Another car wears #9625 now - don't know what its original number was.
Wayne
Not that we have many of them, but a major 'GO' (not sure what SEPTA lingo is for them) was in place on the Broad St Subway this past weekend and will also be in effect on 5/19-21. Apparently the southbound local track is being worked on and is out of service from Erie to Girard during these periods. The locals and Ridge spurs use the southbound express track and bypass Allegheny, Susquehanna-Dauphin and Columbia, stopping at the express platform at North Phila.
What was interesting was the local media spin on this. 'Metro' advised southbound patrons to ride past their stops and cross over at either North Phila or Girard for the northbound local. It also explained that extra Route C bus service would be provided between Erie and Girard for those who wanted to go direct (although the transfer would require payment for a transfer or use of a TransPass). The Inquirer noted that service was not being offered at the three southbound stops affected. KYW newsradio had a different story almost each time it did a traffic report (every 10 minutes on the 2's, as it says). A couple of the TV news reports I saw also misreported this.
I found another source to confirm the gear ratios of all NYCT cars R-10 and up. Here are a few interesting facts to note.
As I originally stated, all cars (except as noted) were built with 7.235:1 gear ratios.
The 75' cars were delivered with gear ratios of 5.087:1
Two notable exceptions are the R-11 at 7.17:1 and the R32 with Pioneer trucks at 9.39:1
Is the wheel size the same for all cars. Gear ration, motors and wheel size will combine to give an expected level or performance.
What size wheel does the MTA use? Chicago was 26" and is now 28."
Standard new wheel for all NYCT cars is 34 inches.
in todays los angeles edition of the daily news tuesday may 2 2000 article TRANSIT WISH LIST by alexa haussler
i will try to make it to the point ...the san fernando valley expected to get $400 million to ease traffic congestion and
improve puiblic transit by some bus transportation sceme of some sort as a part of a $ 15 billion dollar statewide .
This latest jive & bull transportation initiative scheme to unclog local streets even though most expressed doubts that a high sped busway is the best use of $ 400 million dollars for the valley section of los angeles county only ??? what ????? why not the idea of trolley buses light rail subway etc...and why only in the valley ? how about the rest of us ?? census 2000 B.S. again ?? we had a rail system once before !!
what was missing in my opinion is to neglect the subject of some type of light to regular rail transit which at least try to extend the red line and that might start to take some strain off the overcrowded streets & freeways etc.....
............ ""THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES "'........
I rode on PATH for the first time today and I was very impressed. I took both the 33rd street line and the WTC to Newark line. Alot of curves in Manhattan, but those trains handle them beautifully. Also got good speed in both tubes. The WTC one is very straight and fast.
Also nice above ground stretch after Journal Square and into Newark. All the railroad bridges and power plants made for quite a sight.
And you can sit in the front car and look out the window!
I notice PATH uses similar signals to NYC subway, and uses tripcocks for speed control, just like subways.
Train ride was very smooth and quiet, and much better than the LIRR. I like the PATH cars, they seem to be pretty "state of the art".
Anyone can tell the difference between a P3 and P4 car?
The signal aspects are different.
Once again... PA1 PA2 and PA3 cars are painted aluminum with 2 doors per side, and are numbered in the 100, 600, and 700 series. The PA4's are shiny stainless steel with 3 doors per side and are numbered in the 800 series. The easiest way to differentiate the PA1 PA2 and PA3 classes is by car number, look it up on the roster in the PATH section. Additionally the PA3's have interior lighted destination signs over two of the sets of doors, one on each side and one on each end of the car. The PA4's have lighted destination signs on the interior car ends. The PA3's doors make a distinctive clicking when closing that none of the other models make.
05/03/2000
[The PA3's doors make a distinctive clicking when closing that none of the other models make.]
My friend is a conductor on PATH and he says the PA-3 (Hawker-Siddely) cars are problematic and may be the first to go whenever the pA-5's arrive.
Bill Newkirk
I like PATH too, I rode out to Newark a couple of weeks ago, on a rainy day, and on the way back the front "storm" door was leaking so badly I had to stand back because water was spraying up into the air. Has this happened to anyone else?
I noticed a conductor riding in the second car, I guess there are platform length issues?
I see the "elevator" on track maps in Hoboken; Is it still in use? Is it worth riding over there to check out?
Dave
> I noticed a conductor riding in the second car, I guess there are
> platform length issues?
Standard PATH practice is to ride at the first operating position - in the first car if doors open on the left, second car if they open on the right. But, the eastbound trains to World Trade Center have a platform length issue at Exchange Place; the eastbound platform there is only 7 cars long due to the proximity of the interlocking at the west end. So they pull one car past into the tunnel and the conductor only opens the rear 7 cars.
> I see the "elevator" on track maps in Hoboken; Is it still in use?
I think it's still there but I doubt it's used any longer. Either way you can't see it from the platform and only briefly from the head end of a train departing track 3 (usually to WTC). They want to tear down the headhouse on the surface that it raises into (a long narrow building adjacent to Observer Highway at the foot of Washington St. inside the Hoboken Terminal yard)
I was told that that elevator once had a direct track connection in-street to the Lackawanna. Anyone konw for sure/have any pix?
05/03/2000
Sorry, no pix here. But that building did have a track conection to the Lackawanna since that's how the new Hudson & Manhattan cars were delivered. Which series, I'm not sure. I doubt the elevator is used let alone if it works, there seems no logical use for it anyway.
Bill Newkirk
Probably the original 'black cars' were delivered that way in 1908....
... as well as the Black Cars of 1910, 1911, 1915, 1925 and 1927.
All PATH cars before CLASS=K/MP-51 (EXCEPT MP-38 and CLASS=D) were referred to as "Black Cars".
wayne
Would any cars have been delivered that way after the PRR connection was opened? A lot easier to use a direct track connection, as opposed to an awkward elevator.....I suppose depending on the supplier of the equipment....
[Track connection to the Lackawanna]
That would make sense,as the building served as the line's car shop before Henderson St. opened. Cars were lifted out for maintenance.
In later years,the building was used by the track department. The flat cars would be cut away from the work motors and raised to shop level to be loaded with rail,ties,etc. Inside the shop was a huge hydraulic press that was used to bend rail to fit the curves.
The track Dept. moved to new quarters at "C" Yard in Jersey City a few years ago. AFAIK,the building is unused at present. The elevator,now a spur track, is sometimes used for storage of MOW equipment.
The PA-1 cars are a year younger than the R36 cars, and were made by the same company that made the last of the Redbirds (St. Louis Car). The PA-2 cars are about as old as the R38 cars. The PA-3 cars are about as old as some R44's, and the youngest passenger cars, the PA-4 cars, are about as old as some R68 cars. They don't do bad for cars that are about as old as the Redbirds. The Redbirds don't do so badly themselves, either.
And one year older than the R26 is the venerable Class K/MP-51, 1958 stock, which are still in work service for PATH, about 20 or so of them; including one in PATH 60's livery.
Has anyone at the museums thought of inquiring about preserving a Class K/MP-51 car (I realize they are married pairs in some cases)?
They are of historical significance because they are the first fleet of rapid transit cars to be air-conditioned. They had said it could't be done prior to then. Also built by St.Louis Car.
Wayne
05/03/2000
John,
I take it you're new to this website? I don't know if you're very young or from out of town, but you did miss The H&M class K cars which were retired in the eighties when the PA-4's arrived. I miss those cars with their wide LOW-V doors, padded bench seating and incandescent bullseye lighting. Add to this being air conditioned too!
Bill Newkirk
PATH/H&M Class=K
Yes, they are sorely missed too by yours truly. And their A/C was in working order last time I rode one, which was WTC to Hoboken, sometime around 1981.
Some cars were green inside, some grey, others pink, and even light blue. Their PCC saucer lites were impeccable. And the songs they sang in the curves- I thought the PA-1/2/3 cars were bad - the Class K were absolutely operatic.
wayne
Those were great cars if for nothing else than they disproved all the TA's whining in the 1960s about how they could never air-condition the subways, especially the IRT, because there just wasn't enough space in the cars.
Were it not for the Class K cars (and the PA-1s), air conditioning would have undoutably come to the NYC subway system 10 to 15 years later than it did (try to picture an R-44 with those sooty R-38/40 fan vents on the ceiling, because the TA/MTA would have definetly held out at least until the mid-1970s if they could have).
The Ks always remainded me of one of those World's Fair Low-Vs on the outside, and something like an old New York Central commuter car on the inside. They also stir up what few memories I still have of Hudson Terminal, since there were always some parked there.
One of the main reasons the TA FINALLY adopted AC was that Mayor Lindsay pressured them into doing it (although he had PATH to hold up as an example...)...Another thing that Lindsay accomplished was making the TA look for a more modern car design; hence the Slant R40..right Wayne??
That is basically correct, although the R40 design proved to be problematic, and that's where the R40M and R42 came in, and later on, all that wonderful hardware you see adorning each and every slanted nose.
Wayne
I had been told that the original design for the R40 (as produced by Raymond Loewy) was for 5 car sets with A and B cars. The A cars would have a 15 degree slope at one end each, these would bracket 3 blind motors with flat bulkheads. The doors at the #1 end of the A cars would be locked, isolating each half of the train.
The design as built was for all identical "A" type cars with 7 degree slants, leading to a set of porches between each set and decreasing seating capacity. Anyone know if this is true?
I also heard an anecdote about when the cars were new. A maintainer at 207th Street had no use for the fibreglass ends and punched the side of one, cracking it with his bare hand. Sounds a bit like a "tall tale" but feasible for a wannabe boxer type. Anyone know if this is true?
Perhaps "Mr R40" has the expertise here!
I can not a test to the truth of this statement.
I always wanted to see a consist of :
1) a slant R/40 married to a R/40m
2) a pair of R/40s x 3
3) followed by a R/40m married to the remaining slant R/40
/====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====\
I must run before Wayne reads this,
avid
|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''
Nice, but could you explain? I seem to be missing your point.
avid
R68(D) & R40 (Q) on the el structure with station.
...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''
No point, Jorge is just illustrating. Nice illustration.
Which one is #4246?
Wayne
They used to do stuff like that all the time back in the late 60s and early 70s; mix Slants with R38s, Slants with R40Ms, Slants with R42s, R40Ms with R42s (they still do THAT) -
I wonder how #4461 is making out in her transformation from R40M to Slant R40. She received the nose of #4260, who dashed himself against a curtain wall in the tunnel west of 9 Avenue, and she will also get #4260's number, making the SHE a HE. She took a nasty bop on the bonnet there back on June 5, 1995. Her "A" end was all mashed up. And the poor motorman was killed, too.
Wayne
I know of the mixed married pairs, I'm suggesting two devorces and two remarriages.
/====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====\
avid
Yes, the days of smorgasbord trains on the B division, when you could find up to five different car types in the same 10-car train. On second thought, if you had four different married pairs, plus one R-16 and one R-10, you'd have six different car types. Oy-oy-oy...
They were more likely to do something like that on the "A" division. I rode a smorgasbord #3 train back in Jan.1969 that had R14, R15, R17, R21, R22, and R29 all mixed into one 9-car train.
wayne
Not likely. The TA liked its married pair SMEE concepts.
Isn't this still posible, odd & even, odd & even?
avid
The "K" were by far the most "moosical" at Hudson Terminal. My very first encounter with a PATH train featured #1207, who rolled slooooowly into Hudson Terminal, screaming like a wounded banshee as she came. #1207 had a light blue interior.
What was parked on the inside pocket track? Why, it was a train of Black Cars, albeit in yellow work livery.
Wayne
PATH cars have always been the sopranos of the New York area subways system squeals, and not just because they go to New Jersey. The IRT and BMT squeals are more in the tenor range, as far as metal against metal squealing wheels go.
did you ever notice how path trains tend to bounce a little bit more ???
They were also a relatively QUIET car too.....
K Class = relatively quiet cars
Yes, I thought so too, especially with the blowers going. Especially on the straight tube stretches. When they got into the tight spots, or in the Hudson Terminal Loop, hold your ears (unless you like wheel music like I do).
Wayne
.... i remember the ACF pre world war 2 cars in path back in the 1950s !!
those were the good old days !!
Of course, back then it was the Hudson & Manhattan RR, since PATH as an acronym didn't exist until 1963 when the Port Authority renamed it.
Or Hudson Tubes
No one ever seemed to call it that, everyone called it the "Hudson Tubes".
On my way home in the evening, I try to time so I catch a Rock PK "A" at 8th Ave and 42nd. They usually have seats avaible, however it seems that all to often the seats have large pools of water in them.
The cars are clean, smell clean and look clean. I suspect the interiors are washed, but please wipe the seats!
avid reader (likes his seat dry)
If it's a R38 and raining outside... good luck... that is a genuine swimming pool. The water leakage problemn is so bad on those cars that the water actually pours in from the roof.
NOPE, not an R/38. It is almost always an R/44. Each seat has a pool of its own. This goes for latereral and longitudinal.In an effort to preserve what dignity I have, I have taken to carry paper towels (6) for just this event. I try to warn off others, but some are to quick or ignore other people on subways. Sadly its amuseing to watch the expression change on their faces as the cold wetness gives them a wakeup call.
avid
ps last evenings train was a successful dry run !
Sound like the train went through the car wash at 207 Yard and ddin't have time to fully dry before going back in service
That would fit. I guess the force of the water pressure forces the windows open and hoses all the seats.
The window latches must be wearing a little.
avid
Or maybe they forgot to close the doors while the train was going through the car wash...:-) Oops!
all of the buses in atlanta 1984 1988 leaked like there was no roof on them !
everytime it rained there !! ( except for the old flexible and old gm & gmcs !! ).........
Here goes:
My dream opens at Union Square on the Lex. An ex-R-21/22 work car is on the uptown express track, piloted by none other than the instructor who was on our J train last October. And he remembered me! He said the work car was heading back to the Bronx, and asked where I was headed. When I said Grand Central, he offered me a lift on the work car. Cool. We get in, he closes the doors, and wraps the controller from a dead stop. Now, in my dream, the curve at Union Square was just to the north of the station, instead of in the middle of it. This work car squealed around the curve, and once it straightened out, we were off to the races. It got up to 50-55 in about two seconds, and 23rd, 28th, and 33rd Sts. were blurs. I tried to spot the abandoned 18th St. station, but missed it. I'm thinking, man oh man, the R-10s were nothing like this.
Then I woke up. You gotta love that Park Ave. straightaway.
[in my dream, the curve at Union Square was just to the north of the station]
In reality, the curve is north of the uptown platform, while in the middle of the downtown platform.
Interesting.
I forgot about the offset platforms at Union Square. Nontheless, it was a rocket ride.
I dreamed last night that I was going to Times square with my friends. We got on a 6 train, except that it was on the west side of manhattan. There were signs at the station that said we had to transfer to the A,C,E line to get to times square. how thoughtful of them to have signs on how to get to times square just for me. anyway I was about to buy a metrocard, when the power went out for a second then i started to talk to the station attendant, then i woke up.
You missed the best part! When I have more time and inspiration but right now I must clip my coupons, the weekend approaches and its time to abuse the supermarket chais!
Beware Grand Union,Waldbaum's and Edwards , my scissor is out and sharp!
But tahts another tale
snip snip snip snip snip
avid
You missed the best part! When I have more time and inspiration I'll tell you all about it and Estaban Via Ocho Espresso your native guide but right now I must clip my coupons, the weekend approaches and its time to abuse the supermarket chains!
Beware Grand Union,Waldbaum's and Edwards , my scissor is out and sharp!
But tahts another tale
snip snip snip snip snip
avid
At ti\his time I must beg off interpreting any new dreams. Heypaul and BMTman are a handfull as it is.
keep on dreamin'
avid.
I'm usually good for one weird subway dream per month.
What is the official use for the yellow piece of wood found in every subway cab, it has to be for more then proping the door open...
To isolate the car(s) from third rail power in the event of an emergency. Other uses include:
1) Proping the cab door open.
2) Self-defense
3) Self-offense
4) Teach noisy teens a leason.
5) Stick it out the window to make people stand behind the yello line.
6) To punch route selector buttons, if you stop short.
7) To punch route selector buttons if you are short yourself.
8) Hold it and swing it around to show signs of power.
9) On breaks, T/O and C/R use it to have fun by dueling.
10) Walking stick
lol
I saw another use of that yellow pieceof wood yesterday.
A TO was getting ready to leave Times Square. I saw him use two of those things as places to put his feet. I guess he doesn't like his legs dangling while he's driving the train.
Thanks for letting me be your straight man for you top ten list
Wouldn't you need two pieces to isolate the car?
That is why there is one in each cab. As far as R44/46 you would have to walk a bit for the second paddle.
R44/46 carry 2 in the operators cab, none in the B cars.
-Hank
In practice, you actually need 3 Shoe paddles to safely isolate a car from the 3rd rail. The third paddle is actually used as a fulcrum to assist in raising the contact shoe off the rail against gravity and the force of the shoe beam fulcrum spring.
You know, that raises a question that I've wondered about:
When, in practice, do you actually need to slipper a car?
What do you do after it is off the rail? You can't move it
with the slippers in place. Do you then break the shoe fuses
or open both knife switches?
Depends on why you slippered it.
It may be just to replace a shoe fuse.
Or it might be to make another minor repair.
However, if you break one shoe fuse, you need to break
all four. By the way, there is only one knofe switch that
I am aware of.
By the way, there is only one knofe switch that
I am aware of.
Umm, yeah, I was thinking either of the main/aux fuses or
the older equipment, which has separate main and aux knife
switches....then again I suppose Lo-Vs don't roll into
Concourse too often :)
It's called a shoe slipper or shoe paddle. They were for many years painted black.
In Boston we use steel hooks with wooden or fibreglass handles to attach the third rail shoe to the beam, removing it from the third rail. The same effect.
05/03/2000
And many moons ago when those shoe paddles were painted black, they were also used to prevent storm doors on BMT Standards from springing open.
Bill Newkirk
I saw plain old unpainted 2x6s used to hold storm doors shut on BMT standards once or twice. But if those storm doors were powered, how could they open without pushing the corresponding console button?
05/04/2000
Steve B,
I don't know if those storm doors sprang open or just slid open by car movements. At any rate, the doors couldn't lock and the shoe paddle was wedged in place to prevent an accident.
Bill Newkirk
But didn't those storm doors have keyholes so they could be locked? I'm almost positive they did. They were kept locked on the standards for the same reason they're locked on the 75-footers. Anyway, as I said, I only saw 2x6s wedged against the door handles once or twice in two years. Otherwise, nothing else was ever used. I never had a storm door open by surprise on the standards in the two years I rode on them.
This last weekend saw the heaviest usage of the Central Branch in a while when all the Ronkonkoma went to Babylon, reversed to Bethpage, then continued to Ronk (and v.v.).
I thought I might be able to take the kids on a ride from Babylon to Ronkonkoma, but the trains didn't go as far as Babylon station. They just cleared Belmont, with the lead engine going a little east of Little East Neck Rd., then reversed.
Anyway, picking up the discussion of the Central Branch, many Montauk trains that used to take it have been switched to Babylon because the Main Line is clogged (and sometimes it's just shorter). When and if the railroad fairies grants the LIRR two of its fond wishes, third track Hicksville-Queens and electric on the Central Branch, we should see quite a renaissance of the line.
Comment re: NYC transit. Central Branch shows the importance of maintaining lightly-used lines--they're still there in the event you need them for emergencies, increased or new service. NYCTA just HAD to sever, downgrade and eliminate Culver. Who knows if the Franklin shuttle r-o-w may be critical in the future? And if the LIRR (or NYCTA) had maintained even a skeleton service on the old White Pot-Ozone Park part of Rockaway, we might be using it as airport access today.
Another reason for the decrease in use of the Central Branch has to be the emergence of reverse signalling on the Babylon Branch. Now, trains coming from Patchogue and Montauk can be routed around slow moving locals.
That combined with the increased congestion on the Main Line means railfanning along the South Shore is just a little bit more interesting than it was 10 or 15 years ago.
Chuck
[Anyway, picking up the discussion of the Central Branch, many Montauk trains that used to take it have been switched to Babylon because the Main Line is clogged (and sometimes it's just shorter).]
As noted before, I take the 6:41 dual-mode from Patchogue about twice a week, and maybe one-fifth of the time it takes the Babylon line rather than the Central Branch for its Babylon-Jamaica express run. I have found that the time difference between the two routings is just about zero. If the train takes the Babylon line, it normally slows down quite a bit between c.Merrick and c.Freeport, presumably following a local, but makes up the difference through generally higher speeds elsewhere.
Also, they never should have severed the connection between the LIRR & the IND in Far Rockaway. It was only about a block long.
But then they couldn't have built that wonderful strip mall.
[But then they couldn't have built that wonderful strip mall (between the IND and LIRR in Far Rockaway)]
I trust that's scarcasm ... the last time I was in the area, a couple of years ago, I noted that the strip mall was at least half vacant.
Are they tennents or owners of the land. They must go for obvious reasons......
Bring back the LOOP!
avid
Now 3/4ths empty. I think there are a few empty lots left. It'd be neat if they had left it for at least an across platform transfer from A to LIRR.
Speaking of Belmont...
My sports calendar says that today marks the 95th anniversary of the opening of Belmont Park. It mentions that the race track was named after August Belmont and that he was a banker, but it doesn't say anything about his ties with the subway or LIRR.
"It mentions that the race track was named after August Belmont and that he was a banker, but it doesn't say anything about his ties with the subway or LIRR."
Yeah, and the usual biographies of Sam Insull, the transit and electric power magnate of the 1920s -- whose improvements to the Chicago-area interurban lines he owned helped keep the North Shore Line alive into the early '60s and the South Shore Line to today -- discuss almost exclusively his electric power activivies and give VERY little mention to his transit holdings.
The odd thing is that it was his transit business that did him in. Owning the Chicago Rapid Transit and all three interurbans into Chicago made him a target for populist ire and demagoguery -- despite his willingness to invest in solid capital improvements, he was portrayed as an out-of-towner coming in and living high off the nickels of the poor beset straphangers. (Sounds like the attitude of a certain New York City mayor to the IRT and BMT, no?) Therefore, his public image was VERY low when the '29 market crash severely affected his businesses, and he was (wrongly) accused of fraud and embezzlement.
http://post.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=1600442784&tid=budgiesandparrakeets&sid=1600442784&mid=1&n=1
......question ......bird lovers out there ??
...not...what i... expected.
if so maybe a town and or city served by the long island railroad would be a better choice than lodging n.y.c....etc..
i suppose they do not run 24 /7 right ??? the LIRR...
Coming east? One possibility of lodging is the Holiday Inn two short blocks from the Rockville Centre LIRR station, adjacent to the tracks. There is a double advantage: Rockville Centre LIRR service is 24/7 and mostly on 30-minute headway (35 minutes or so to Penn Station). Fare is $7 peak, $4.75 off-peak. Another advantage is that Rockville Centre station has an inexpensive bus or van connection to JFK airport called the JFK Flyer, which stops at the public bus platform at each airline. I don't have a timetable here with me, but the headway is about 40 minutes, maybe 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. The JFK Flyer is operated by LI Bus, but I understand the drivers get only paratransit salaries, not the transit bus scale. Fare is $1.50 coins or NY Metrocard (purchasable not on board, but at LIRR and subway stations). There are probably a few other motels convenient to the LIRR, but I cannot think of them now. Enjoy the trip.
Salaamallah
I'm not sure if Long Island is a great idea for lodging. Hotel prices tend to be rather high, and there aren't many hotels of decent quality. Those that do exist are rarely within walking distance of the LIRR.
One which comes to mind is the Holiday Inn in Rockville Centre, but that will run you $125-$150 per night. There are some other smaller, independent motels along Sunrise Highway (which parallels the LIRR's Babylon branch) which are probably less expensive. You have to be careful with these places, though. Many cater to the "3-hour rate" crowd and can be a bit dicey though not unsafe. I'd stay there by myself, but I wouldn't bring my family.
The best hotel deal that I recall are the two hotels located in either Rutherford or East Rutherford NJ, right along Route 3. I believe one is (or was) the Novotel, I don't remember the other one's name. NJ Transit offers fairly frequent (half-hourly for most of the day) service from right near the hotels to the Port Authority. The fare is considerably cheaper than the LIRR, too.
Chuck
Doh!!!
As soon as I hit "post" I thought of a Long Island spot for you. The Best Western in Hempstead is about 3 or 4 blocks from the LIRR station. Rates there are probably under $100 per night -- the website indicates rates as low as $79.
You can also catch a Long Island Bus in Hempstead which will take you to Jamaica where you can catch the F train, all on one Metrocard.
Enjoy your visit,
Chuck
An N-6 bus from Hempstead to Jamaica is a good hour spent looking at scenic Hempstead Turnpike and a gazillion traffic lights. Then your LOCAL "F" train awaits you.
The Hempstead LIRR station is right near there as well. Hempstead also has a museum of African-American history, IIRC.
wayne
You would be better off in New Jersey, the prices are cheaper. But you could always try a couple of the YMCA s in Manhatten. These have a web site here some place. You just would have to find it.
The Sheraton Hotel is located in downtown Flushing-Main Street area. If you stay there, you have access to LGA and for traveling into Manhattan, you can use either the IRT #7 line or the LIRR at Flushing-Main Street.
If you want better lodging in a better area, you might try Great Neck which is on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. In Great Neck there two hotel within walking distance of the train station and it is safe at night there. the two hotels are the Bayberry-Great Neck Hotel(516-482-2900) and the Inn at Great Neck(516-773-2000).
You might also try looking in the Mobil travel guide book for location and pricing of accomdations outside of Manhattan.
........I would like to thank all on this thread of posts to this question I asked bout the LIRR and lodging
etc...... you all have been very helpful and I appreciate this very much
I only wish ALL SUBTALKERS were like this on this subtalk forum !!!!!! thank you ...( salamallah) .....
........I would like to thank all on this thread of posts to this question I asked bout the LIRR and lodging
etc...... you all have been very helpful and I appreciate this very much
I only wish ALL SUBTALKERS were like this on this subtalk forum !!!!!! thank you ...( salaamallah)...
try westfield nj there is a best western there. it is a short walk to the westfield train station on the raitan line.
Would any expert on subway cars care to explain what the improvements (or lack thereof) have been over time as each new series of cars has come into service?
R40 Air conditioning!
The Triplexes introduced route and destination signs on the end bulkheads, as well as backlit side destination signs.
The BMT standards brought in couplers which incorporated mechanical, pneumatic, and electric coupling of cars without having to connect anything else.
If the trains before the Standard had automatic couplers, what made them automatic?
Probably the fact that you could make a coupling by just hitching cars together rather than having a man guide it from the ground as with the infamous link and pins. I believe the good old knuckles used on mainline railroads for a century were called automatic when new.The IRT "J" couplers looked much like the BMT, IND etc ones but only the "iron" hitch was automatic. Oh yes, the air pipes made up too but the angle cocks had to be opened manually, amd all jumper cables for trainline circuits plugged in, as is done on diesels.
The last ten cars of the R/38 were the ones to introduce air. The R/40 Slants first 300 had fans, next 100 had air . My numbers might be off but the R/38,s were first. Thank you very much.
avid.
R-15 6239 (the one now in the Transit Museum, as it happens) was the first NYC subway car with air conditioning. It was retrofitted in 1955. In 1956, R-17s 6800-6809 came with air conditioning. The equipment was replaced with more powerful units, then by fans. R-38s 4140-4149 came in 1967, followed by R-40s 4350-4549 (current numbers) in 1969. Everything since then has been air conditioned.
David
First 200 SLANT had fans (4150-4249/4350-4449); last 100 had air (4450-4549). R40M had air (4250-4349).
Note: The numbers shown are the ORIGINAL car numbers.
Wayne
An interesting point about the 10 R-38s equipped with AC is that the units totally blocked all normal access to the headsigns. Obviously a modification!
Its always a pleasure to draw out the real answers with guesstimates.
I stand corrected and educated, i didn't know about the early attemps .
avd
Well, the R-10s brought in SMEE braking as well as four motors per car. They were also the last cars to have air-operated doors. Still, they could, and occasionally did, intermix with later cars. I'm glad they ran in solid trains for the most part.
There is a photo on ebay showing the passengers in the back of the 1st PCC car trip in 1932. Somebody's father, grandfather or someone you may have know is in that picture.
See Ebay Item #322274869
This looks like one of the prototypes, perhaps #5200, that ran in Brooklyn. The PCC design wasn't finalized until 1935.
It's definately not a PCC, that's for sure. The angle of the rear window supports is wrong, along with several other details.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't we look at that same picture about a year ago, and
didn't we conclude that it was ERPCC-B, formerly BQT 5200,
the pre-PCC test car?
Now that you mention it, I think you're right, Jeff. The window arrangement in the back would certainly fit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right except that I think that it was as recent as a few months ago. The same picture was on eBay then, and I thought it had sold!
I knew it was a pre-prod model, but I was not sure which one it was.
I was more interested in the people in the pix. I would think that someone (on Subtalk) may have know someone in the photo. Some of those people in the photo look like some of my relatives. They used to live a block or two west from Lexington. I remember that there was a day-storage trolley yard across the street from my aunt's house.
Do we have any Brooklyn trolley track maps on this site.
No, there aren't any trolley track maps here...
I do have a map of the Brooklyn trolleybus wire in the Bus section though.
-Dave
Why is the subject named the way it is? Read on:
Today I rode the HHLR, parked at 34th Street and rode to Exchange Place and then on to PATH. The trip (both ways and parking, not counting PATH) costed $5.00.
Do you have to put the receipt inside the car windshield as a parking ticket or do they keep track electronically?
I used the UNMARKED stop request strip going back towards 34th, IT WORKED! The automated announcement acknowledged my request, and it was on the display (which announced every stop one stop early, BTW).
The map engraved into the platform at Exchange Place showed the north of Hoboken extension, consult This map (will open in new window) to know what I will talk about below:As we already know, Jersey City Medical Center is called Jersey Avenue and Liberty Harbor is called Marin Boulevard.
The engraved map DOES NOT show the Route 440 Park and Ride proposal
Nor does it show the southern Bayonne extension
The 17TH Street Station is not shown on the engraved map
Nor is Port Imperial South
Finally, the reason for the subject line: The engraving shows the line terminating at Tonnelle Avenue, NOT going to 69TH or 85TH Street or especially the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza in Ridgefield.
Do you think they will EVER correct those auto-PA problems?
use the stop request strips?
or have the doors manually controlled?
As for LR-spurred development, Van Vorst Street and Dudley Street (between Essex and Marin stations) are both being extended to meet one another, the curbing and drainage is done, the asphalt is still not there. I guess they ran out of streets on which to build townhouses!
Garfield Avenue has an elevator, except for the one under construction at 34th Street, do any other stations have any?
And that's it, hope this provokes hours of meaningless discussion (just kidding).
The automatic stop announcements were humorously out of sync the one time I rode the HBLR. Practically each time the train stopped for signals or traffic lights, the computer perceived this as a station stop and announced that we were arriving at the station! We hadn't even reached Liberty State Park when the train was telling us we were approaching LAST STOP...FINAL STOP...EAST THIRTY-FOURTH STREET :^) The operator just gave up, shut off the voice (but the visual display kept flashing LAST STOP/ FINAL STOP/ E. 34TH STREET), and announced the stops himself.
CTA hasn't had these bizarre problems with its automatic (voice only) announcements. I have only heard the auto-voice go out of sync once, and the train operator quickly set it right. Not that people haven't been complaining that the voice is too loud or too quiet, but at least it calls out the stops in the right order at the right time.
It's manually controlled from a small panel to the right of the operator. LIRR trilevels have a similar system.
-Hank
Hi
Can anyone confirm if there is now a Relay layover track on the SB Side,,west of the Revenue Tracks?? I understand that this is supposed to extend North to the Bridge Area.
and yes,I do know there is a relay track on the NB Side,,north of the Diamond Crossover .
Thanks
Steve
I beleive it will be Track F5 ,,located West of the SB track,can any one verify this location and Track ID
I saw it a couple of days ago. I think there was a switch north of the double crossover north of BC, but as I looked at the track itself, there are some buildings in its way that need to be moved. I say this because there is some track, a building, more track, another building, etc. These aren't big buildings, just some small shacks, but I still call them buildings.
Thank you
Steve
Thank you
Steve
Yeah, I took a ride out on the Far Rock A to look at the work going on over there.
Apparently, NYCT has to remove or demolish a couple of their trackside shanties before the F5 track can be completed. Also, third rail has yet to be added.
I saw two rail-tamping units on that track further south toward Broad Channel station. Also, the trackwork train was sitting on the southbound express tracks between Howard Beach and Acequduct/North Conduit stations. Diesel locos #899, 71, and 78 were involved in the consists of rail-carrying flatcars.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone have an Updated Drawing of the Track Layout for the 63 st Connection..
I assisted Peter Doughtery in the Tracks of NY Boook ,Version 1 to version 2,etc,,however I understand there have been additional changes in the track layout
BTW,,has anyone spoke to Peter,,I have not been able to contact him,,as of recent
Thank you
Steve Lowenthal
Tonight oh TLC, they had a special on the subway, the piece was about a smoke condition at Grand Central, they showed the command center, what goes on there, i saw the inside of the Grand Central tower, nice shots of redbirds and R-62's. They also talked about the subway musicians, now they doing a piece on the homeless living in the amtrak tunnel on the westside any comments?
I'm really sorry I missed this... and ticked off. I've set up my DirecTV search option to find programs containing 'subway' and it missed this one completely.
Bill J.
Your search would have missed this one. It was a "48 Hours" episode on NY "underground". The word "subway" was not in the title.
From the TLC Schedule:
48 Hours - The N.Y. Underground
Each day, three and a half million people ride New York City's subway. Beneath the city lies another world, where 5,000 homeless people live, and the public library stores George Washington's beer recipe.
Air Time(s) Eastern/Pacific Time:
TLC May 3 2000 2:00 AM
TLC May 3 2000 7:00 PM
PS. I missed it too. :>(
(It is not listed for a repeat in May, but I predict that it will be shown again, on either TLC or Discovery.)
Thanks for the info wsteil. I'll keep an eye out for it. Actually the DirecTV search (they call them 'scouts') does search on program descriptions too, but they use such condensed descriptions that it's pretty useless.
Bill J.
It's wensday and that means another chat. Come if you want to and talk for a while.
Starts at 8
just go to:
metrocard.cjb.net
and click on:
Metrocard Chat
or just go to:
www.chat.cjb.net/metrocard
Has anyone ever noticed that at the ends of many (if not all) IRT R62s there are circular dents in the shiny metal walls? It looks like people have swung hammers at it. Are these just the mischevous punks that like to destroy subway cars?
Those dents could be caused by assholes throwing rocks at the trains on outdoor portions of the routes. The Amtrak trains out here in California have plenty of those dings even with fluted siding.
I think most bullets would have the power to go through the walls of a subway train. I belive it is more hammers doing the damage
05/04/2000
[Has anyone ever noticed that at the ends of many (if not all) IRT R62s there are circular dents in the shiny metal walls? It looks like people have swung hammers at it. Are these just the mischevous punks that like to destroy subway cars? ]
I can't prove this but my suspicions tell me they were caused by bullets. It's easier to conceal a gun than a ball peen hammer. I've seen these dings in other cars as well. In fact years ago, I saw an R-27 or 30 with several holes that had to be caused by bullets on that irregular stainless steel surface by the end storm door.
Bill Newkirk
How about a BB gun pellet?????
BM34x
05/05/2000
[How about a BB gun pellet?????
BM34x]
I don't think a BB pellet would put a dent that large in it. Most likely and not as deep.
I still don't thin a ball peen hammer did those dents. You notice how close they are? A gun most likely did, maybe from some armed low lifes who prowl the system in the wee hours.
Bill Newkirk
I've seen this phenomenon on the R68's which run on the "D". #2511 was particulary full of these saucer-shaped dents (which may have been fixed by now). They are on the inside of the car, on either interior end wall. The R62's on the #4 also have many. I don't think a gun did this, more likely a punch or a small hammer.
wayne
Is anyone good at identifying diesel switchers? I saw NYCHRR loco #11 last monday and I didn't know what it was! It looks like an Alco-made unit, but I could be way off. I've got photos at http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/nychrr.html
I need your help to put in captions too!
Daniel
THAT NYCHRR SWITCHER IS AN ALCO S-4
One can find out more about the NYCH's rolling stock at:
http://www.nyrr.com/
The line will also be featured in the July issue of Trains magazine.
Dave
05/04/2000
I believe NYCH #11 was formerly a Massena Terminal engine from upstate New York, I'm not sure of the old number.
Bill Newkirk
AEM-&
Test Test Test
This concludes the test
Daniel
If you were trying to show pictures as part of a message, then you passed.
05/03/2000
I just picked up the new Continental Airlines Metrocard at 57th St and 7th Ave (N)(R).
The message is: TEST THE LIMITS OF YOUR GEOGRAPHY SKILLS
If you find a Continental Airlines with a different message, it's probably an older one.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill,
I believe there are a total of ten in the series that go all the way back to April of 1998 ... all have the same basic graphics with different comments (the first one the globe is a bit bigger).
BTW, I don't know about the rest of you NYC collectors, but I finding that the recent issues aren't as readly available ... is it smaller distribution of more folks getting into the hobby ?
Mr t__:^)
There seems to be a miscommunication regarding card delivery. One of the stations where I work was supposed to get the Board of Ed card and they did not. The station called called a friend at another station that was also supposed to get the cards and the second station did not get them either.
Info on new cards which I post is based on the information as stated in official AFC Bulletins.
The Board of Ed card is available at Lawrence ST/ Metrotech BMT as you stated. It is a beauty, too.
JCaronetti
I just got my Bd Of Ed Card at 59-Lex.........
3TM
I've noticed that many LIRR work trains have chain-link and buffer combination couplers instead of the standard American knuckle. Is this because of their European pedigree? But even if so, why didn't the european manufacturers retrofit the cars to American standards. The buffers look so ugly, and the system is less efficient than the knuckle.
Daniel
Have the opened the Monorail link from Newark Airport to the NJT railroad station yet?
[Have the opened the Monorail link from Newark Airport to the NJT railroad station yet?]
Not yet. It's still at least a year to 18 months off, IIRC.
I took a look at it a few days ago. The "tracks" (what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?) were in place from the operating portion to a point just short of the gas pipeline ROW. From that point on, there are 15 or 16 sets of piers or footings onto which no track segments have been placed. Never having been involved in construction in any capacity, I can't see why it would take more than two months to finish the project.
> what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?
"Guideway"
One problem is that the whole monorail is due to be shut down for retrofitting of some faulty steel welds. I wonder if the new portion of the guideway was built with the same technology that was found to be faulty...
-Dave
The manufacture or builder if you will will cover the costs of repair so if it is the same outfit it is big $$$
Is there anyone who agrees with me that the idea of building "split-level" terminals such as those at Newark, where all drop-off is on one level and you have to take escalators either up to departure or down to arrival, shows just how much bad judgment the Port Authority is capable of?
This design is hardly unique to the Port Authority... it seems typical of airports I've ever been to. You almost *always* go down to the arrivals level to claim your bags. At Newark, cars approaching the terminal have three levels to choose from, not one:
1. Departures Level (topmost) People being "dropped off" would be on the departures level where the baggage is collected and the check-in desks are located, then they go down a half level to the gates. Remember the terminals were built prior to the monorail where you only had two choices to get there: park at hourly and come up from the lower level, which I suspect is not the way most departing passengers arrive, or use a taxi/bus from long-term and get dropped off right at the departures level.
2. Baggage Claim Level (middle). Arriving passengers come from the gate concourse and go down a half level to the baggage pickup. (Why would they need to go up to departure?) From the baggage claim level you have direct access to ground transportation (taxi/bus).
3. Parking Lot Level (bottom). If you're parking here and departing, you have to go up two levels for departure check in but how many people park in the hourly lots to fly somewhere? I suspect most people who park there are meeting people and would either go up 1 level to Baggage Claim or 1 and a half levels to the gates. If you're driving to the airport to fly out, you'd probably park at long-term and take the monorail to your terminal.
Some airports take the split level to an extreme. For instance Heathrow Terminal 4 has two levels in the gate area. Arriving passengers enter the building on the lower level which has no services- just immigration and customs service. Departing passengers use the upper level of the gate concourse areas and generally have to use stairs or a lift to get down to the lower level where the jetway is to board the plane.
Charles De Gaulle in Paris has a two level structure too, but the jetways can actually raise and lower to connect to the upper or lower levels (like an elevator).
It's more important at an international terminal to keep arriving and departing passengers separate. I think American domestic airports are designed mostly to provide extra road space (on two levels)- once you're checked in, departing passengers co-mingle with arriving passengers on the gate concourses. If it were truly designed to keep the passenger flows apart, the two level system would have to be extended all the way to the gates like at Heathrow or CDG. But really, have you ever seen a major airport that did not have different levels for different services? Space is at a premium..
Hmmm...maybe I am too harsh on Newark. I have only used it a few times. I just have a pretty vivid recollection that I was forced to lug my baggage, and at the time a baby stroller (with baby)up and down escalators when I arrived at the terminal. I have never had that experience at any other American airport. However, I may have arrived by monorail from the rental car area. According to your post, this is a weakness in the way the monorail was retrofitted into the terminal design. Thus, perhaps I was seeing the terminal from its weakest perspective in this regard. Nonetheless, I am obviously not the only passenger who arrives via monorail and encounters this problem with the airport's design.
True, the monorail was retrofitted in what might be seen as a clumsy manner but I still don't feel too sorry for you. You could have used the elevators for your baggage! :-)
-Dave
Okay, okay, I will stop picking om Newark. Thanks for your thoughtful and informative comparisons of Newark's design to other airports.
Good. If you used LaGuardia a few times, you'ld be more appreciative of Newark.
The use of the "split level" design in has become the accepted standard for large, busy airports; ticketing and departures are usually on the upper level, and baggage claim and arrivals are on the lower level. Often there may be an intermediate level for an airport people-mover system and for various back-of-house service areas such as baggage handling.
All four terminals at O'Hare Airport are designed this way, and such a configuration provides a very efficient passenger flow. Given how huge O'Hare is, it is generally a very easy airport to navigate and one shudders to think what a nightmare it would be if everything shared one level. Midway Airport is a fraction of the size of O'Hare, but I find it much more difficult to use because of its antiquated single-level design. (Luckily, Midway is in the process of being completely rebuilt from the ground up. It will literally be a brand-new airport in a few years, with a standard "split-level" design for the terminal.)
(On a related topic, the City of Chicago just announced plans to build two more terminals at O'Hare, and local business leaders are pushing for additional runways and a western access road. Watch the suburban NIMBY's fight tooth-and-nail to stop this project from proceeding.)
A few large airports have been foolish enough to have arriving and departing passengers on the same level, and the results have almost always been chaotic. Hartsfield in Atlanta comes to mind, where ticketing and baggage claim occupy the same level and large numbers of passengers going in opposite directions must cross paths in the terminal. Dallas - Ft. Worth Airport also occupies a special place of honor in the Hall of Shame for bad airport design.
In the case of international terminals, the federal government requires that arriving and departing passengers be kept absolutely seperate. There are also some extrememly strict security design guidelines put forth by the FAA and U.S. Customs for the arrivals area prior to entering the customs checkpoint. (Long, straight corridors with no blind corners, no shops or restaurants, etc. Since these areas are technically international territorry, security is of paramount concern.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I did not make my original objections to Newark's design altogether clear. Of course, most airports are "split level" in the sense that they have an arrival and departure level. What is odd about Newark is the fact that you can arrive at an intermediate level that requires you to go up 1/2 level or down 1/2 level, as the case may be, while dragging your baggage. O'Hare does not have this feature, nor do any other American airports that I am aware of.
By the way, the new Midway Terminal will be a modern two level terminal. DOA intends to encourage its development as a shopping location, which seems to be the favored modern mode for new airport development.
Terminal 5 at O'Hare, the new international terminal, is set up in this fashion. The airport people mover system comes in at an intermediate level between departures and arrivals. There are also entrances from a parking lot on this level as well; this intermediate level is actually the ground floor, with arrivals located below-grade. This is due in large part to security measures, and also the fact that the people mover system was built before the terminal.
People have to carry their luggage on the escalator or elevator no matter what, but that's pretty much a fact of life in any large airport. People movers are much like subways, and like it or not, chances are you're not going to get to the platform level without using stairs, escalators or an elevator.
The location of the people mover station at an intermediate level is actually ideal, since that puts it within a short distance of both departures and arrivals. At the three domestic terminals at O'Hare, which were all built before the people mover system, the people mover is located on the departures level opposite the roadway. People must still use and escalator to go up to a pedestrian bridge that crosses the roadway, and then another escalator down to the platform. Arriving passengers must use an additional escalator to get from baggage claim to the departures level in order to use the people mover. I'd much rather use one escalator than three.
Terminal 5 at O'Hare, designed by my former employer Perkins & Will.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, did you have something to do with T5? It is an unusually beautiful terminal building. We can hope that the new major expansions at O'Hare will be a similar quality.
I wish I could claim some credit for it ("See that door knob? I put that there"), but I joined the firm a couple years after the terminal was completed.
I know Helmut Jahn's design for the United Airlines terminal (Terminal 1) gets a lot of press ink for its design, but I think Terminal 5 is every bit as good, IMO. Terminals 2 and 3 are starting to look a bit dated, but they're still not bad after 30 years. Maybe they'll get a decent facelift with along with the proposed expansions.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow, for a second there I was thinking, what's the deal with the four track railroad in front of the building. :-)
-Dave
[By the way, the new Midway Terminal will be a modern two level terminal. DOA intends to encourage its development as a shopping location]
That's a peculiar abbreviation for the Department of Airports :-)
Yes, come to think of it. It stands for Department of Aviation, but the acronym is unfortunate. Nonetheless, that is how it is referred to in Chicago City government.
Why would arriving passengers need to go to departure?
Maybe if they are changing planes but have no checked baggage to pick up? Maybe they figure that cabs will be easier to catch on the departure level, having just dropped off departing travelers.
Changing planes. It's a rare treat when I get a non-stop flight westbound when going to see my grandchildren, and depending on the airport I may have to change levels to change planes. Pittsburgh is the worst, level-wise, that I've been through; fortunately, it's been quite a few years since I've had to change there (back before the grandchildren were born). I arrived on the bottom level (of four), and departed from the top level. The two levels in between were a shopping mall at that time, the gates were clustered, and if you needed to get from one cluster to another you had to go down to level 1, up through the mall to level 4, and then back down to the other cluster. Maybe they've improved it by now; I think it was 1982 when I was last through there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pittsburgh opened an entirely new airport (at least the terminal portion) a few years ago - 1992 I think. By all reports, it is an exceptionally nice airport now.
That's good. Back in those days I was travelling from Raleigh to Lansing, Michigan every couple of months and Allegheny was the only choice, which meant a change in Pittsburgh on the return trip (going north the change was in Cincinnati). I grew to hate that airport! Now, I change in Salt Lake City on Delta going JFK to my daughter's home in Las Vegas, and fly nonstop coming east; this last trip I lucked into a nonstop going west too, and it was cheaper to boot! The Salt Lake airport has a nice peoplemover shuttle, as does Las Vegas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The main terminal at Denver International Airport has SIX - count 'em, six - levels, although once inside, only the top three are used. The parking garages on either side of the main terminal have six levels apiece which coincide with the main terminal's levels. Departures pull up to the top level, where the ticketing areas are. Baggage pickup is on the fifth level along with the security gates to the subway trains and, at the far northern end, the skybridge to Concourse A. The trains are on what would be the fourth level, then they dip down beneath the taxiway to Concourse A and stay at that grade.
Tampa Int. has 7- 2 for the main termanal the rest for parking. They also have a monorail to get to/from the main termanal to the gates, If the monorail breaks down, the only other way to get to the gate is to walk on the tarmack outside
[I took a look at it a few days ago. The "tracks" (what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?) were in place from the operating portion to a point just short of the gas pipeline ROW. From that point on, there are 15 or 16 sets of piers or footings onto which no track segments have been placed. Never having been involved in construction in any capacity, I can't see why it would take more than two months to finish the project.]
Government. Somehow government construction sites are idle most of the time. I don't know quite how they do it . . .
Because they move equipment and people to other places, usually private, where they can get more money. When they're done, they go back and work at the government project for a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Normally I don't post off-topic here,but I wanted to make a brief tribute to John O'Conner, who passed away tonight @ 8:05 PM. While subtalkers and all New Yorkers come from many different faiths, I hope is remembered for being a leader, and his years of dedicated service. -Nick
I am of a different faith than his, but I agree that he was a great person of God and a very charismatic, likeable person.He will be missed by all New Yorkers
DAVE: Sorry this is off topic.
I'm sure Irish Catholics never worked on the subway, --Oh ya they did so they might be interested. Sorry to hear of his passing. May he ride the train of red birds to the great here after.
I just heard about it this morning. I'm Catholic myself, and have heard many good things about him. God bless him.
God Bless you Cardinal O'Conner
Peace Out
David Justiniano
05/04/2000
I was amazed how much abuse he took from others who didn't agree with him and his teachings. A lesser man would have cracked and exploded. A lesson in it for us all. Rest in peace Cardinal O'Connor, you definitely have a space reserved in heaven for you.
Bill Newkirk
The mystery is solved, I'm pleased to report. Today I went to a specialty-foods store and did a little label checking. Then I compared what I saw to some recent Subtalk posts. It is finally settled, no further discussion:
Salaamallah IS Dr.Bronner.
is dr. bronner that your real name ?? ...you didnt settle anything except to put up another typical idiot post !!
it also seems that you label yourself very nicely ...no mystery except the nut you see every time you look at yourself
in the mirror !!! eh dr. bronner ??!!
Is there some reason you feel you need to be malicious instead of just ignoring those you don't see eye to eye with? Please keep this crap off this board.
[Is there some reason you feel you need to be malicious instead of just ignoring those you don't see eye to eye with? Please keep this crap off this board.]
I have *tried* to ignore Salaamallah. He went on my killfile list as soon as that capability was added. It appears that some other people have done the same. But he just won't go away! Even with the killfiles, I can tell from responses that he's posting like crazy. Ignorning schmucks is usually the best move because they end up going away. But what happens when they *don't* go away?
Buy stronger sunshades!!! seriously, I am here to have fun, elucidate fine points and occasionally make a political (but on point) rant. As to those who are or not part of various killfiles, I long before learned to skip co9mments by some posters as I sure others have behaved the same vis-avis yours truly. In any event go out and ride a train!!! And if one is not enough ride several!!! Believe me living in the SF Bay Area, I am envious of the variety available to you.
At least BART trains get up to 70 mph. I was on one in 1981 which reached 85.
Is anyone able to provide the history of subway car types on the
Franklin Shuttle since the early- or mid-sixties? When did the line switch from four to two car trains? Thanks,
Dave
There were R11 cars on the Franklin Shuttle back then; they went for rebuild in 1964-5 and came back as R34.
I'm not sure if the MS saw their last runs there in 1961...
Other types on the Franklin Shuttle were AB's (while the R11 was being rebuilt). R32 showed up alongside the R11/R34. Once the R11/R34 passed, it was R32, then R27, then R32 again, then R68, in that order.
Prior to the R11, there was a mix of ABs, MS, even D-Types. And the Zephyr ran there as well.
Wayne
There was a time in the Summer of 1996 when there were R68A cars on the Franklin Shuttle. I remember that one of those cars operating on that 2-car R68A set was #5176.
When exactly did the switch from R68A to R68 cars occur?
Nick
The R68 has always been the only R68 to regularly serve the FS. The R68A's you saw were an annomoly.
You said the AB's ran on it while the R11's were being rebuilt which would be around '64 & '65. However I defnitely remember Standards on it in the late 60's.
Since the BMT standards were around until 1969, it's possible you may have seen them on the Franklin Ave. shuttle during that time frame. They also ran on the Culver Shuttle during the late 60s; however, by 1965, they were gone from the rest of the Southern Division.
As of April 1969, R11 was on the Franklin SS; the Culver had the last of the BMT Standards, along with the "M" train. My trip journal from April 11, 1969 shows only R11s on the Franklin.
There could have been other cars there; I just didn't see them.
August 4, 1969: The LAST RIDE for the BMT Standards.
Wayne
There were still some BMT standards on the Canarsie in the spring of 1969. One Saturday, after school had let out, I just missed a train of R-7/9s out of Lorimer St.; by the time I went through that "iron maiden" gate at the western end of the station, the train started to pull out. The next train was a train of standards. I would have waited for another R-7/9 train, but I had a bus to catch from Port Authority.
During the 40s and 50s the Main Stay was a 3 Car Standard, Sometimes they ran the R11, but that was very rare, even though it was always on the local track inbound just south of Prospect Park.
During the 40s and 50s the Main Stay was a 3 Car Standard, Sometimes they ran the R11, but that was very rare, even though it was
always on the local track inbound just south of Prospect Park.
My memory may be bad (I was just a kid then), but I always thought that the stainless steel train parked south of Prospect Park in the early 50s was the 1934 experimental multi-section built by Budd - aka "the Zephyr".
-- Ed Sachs
Trust me - your memory is outstanding! The Zephyr did indeed run on the Franklin Ave. shuttle, so that's probably what you saw.
Didnt they also at one point run a 2 car (one pair) of R-32s with a single R11 for a 3-car train on the Franklin SS?
My understanding was that the TA wanted to run solid 3 car trains of R-11's (using up 9 of the 10 that were built) but the TWU balked about exposing the conductors on the steps to the tough neighborhood in the 70s.
The R-32s gave the conductors inside door controls.
Very true. A neighbor of mine worked it as a Motorman in the early '70's. Typical consist was 2 R-32's and an R-11. A 3 car R-11 set was usually laid up south of Prospect Park as a "gap" (reserve) train and rarely used. IIRC,the reason was complaints from the Conductors that they were easy targets for morons inclined to throw things or spit at them while they were perched on the steps. Evidently such complaints had merit; at about the same time,Conductors working R-7/9's on the Canarsie Line were issued goggles and hard hats for their protection.
Maybe they should have been issued football helmets. This must have taken place in the early 70s, as I don't ever recall conductors wearing anything except uniform hats on the Canarsie line's R-7/9s when I rode on that line. Except for a one-station hop in Manhattan in October of 1984, I haven't been on the LL/L since June 6, 1970.
'70 or '71, if memory serves. I think it was the TA's response to a rise in injury claims. Once the number of claims declined, enforcement probably declined as well. In any event, it didn't last very long.
Make that October 27, 1999! :o>
wayne
I stand corrected on that one. Make that the 14th St. tunnel then.
Could you provide approximate dates for the two periods when the R32s inhabited the Shuttle? Did they run in four or two car sets?
Thanks again,
Dave
R-32's were at first MU'd with R-11's. Then later on the R-11's were retired and the 32's lasted until the R-68A's showed up.
I'm not sure that there were any other R-types used between the time of the 32's and 68's.
Doug aka BMTman
When did the R68s arrive on the shuttle? Did the R32s ever run in two-car sets? By the way, where can I see active R32s?
Thanks,
Dave
Don't know when the 68's started on the Shuttle, but I do recall the 32's running in 4 car sets on the line during the early-70's. I had moved from Crown Heights to Flatbush by that time, and do not know what was run on the Franklin from the mid-70's thru the 1980's.
Doug aka BMTman
The R68's showed up in 1988. Before that, un-rehabbed R27/30 cars ruled this line straight from the mid-late 70's. The R32's showed up in 1992 (?) after an incident where one collided with the bumper block at Franklin Ave, leading to the R68 being banned from the entire line until the rehabbed line re-opened last year. During this time 4 car sets of R32's operated, but only 2 of the 4 cars were actually used in each train.
05/04/2000
And "Redbird" R-30's also did some time here. usually with a grey (S) on front and once with a yellow (S). I witnessed this.
Bill Newkirk
INCORRECT.
The R-68 was running on the line until it's closure in July of 1998. This includes the time before and after Independence Day 1997 (when they switched to electronic tickets).
I can't recall the R68 running on the Franklin Shuttle at this time, because I only witnessed the R32's. I do know that the R68 was banned from the FS for quite some time after the incident I described took place. Perhaps Larry Redbird R33 has exact dates of that incident.
The R-32 cars hold down service on the "E" and part of the "N". There's a train of R-32 GE cars that occasionally pops up on the A or C as well.
The R-32s can also be seen and ridden on the C, which also has R-38s assigned as well. More recently, R-32s have been spotted on the A, sometimes by themselves, sometimes intermixed with R-38s in the same train. The GE rebuilds Dave is referring to are usually found in a train of R-38s; I don't believe they run as a solid train.
Since the R-32s and R-38s look similar, here's a quick way to tell them apart: the R-32s have fluted sides from top to bottom, while the R-38s are fluted on the lower half of each side. If you want to get really specific, the front pixel sign on the R-32s can be very difficult to read because of its relatively small size. The pixel signs on the R-38s are larger and easier to decipher.
Another way to spot R-38's and 32's: the name of the R-type will be marked on the front of the couplers (watch an approaching 32 or 38 and chances are you'll see the marking).
Doug aka BMTman
Yet another way is to look at the front bulkhead above the storm door. On R-32s, it's smooth all the way across with no hint that anything else was ever there. The ten GE rebuilds have outlines where the marker lights used to be. On the R-38s, the entire area where the marker lights and end signs used to be is still delineated.
And if it looks like an R32 outside and an R38 inside, it's a R32GE.
The font on the plaques is a little different too.
When are they pulling these Rollin' Roasters off the road? It's gettin' kinda warm out there.
Wayne
Rollin' roaster? Sounds like a certain F train to me. Know what I mean, know what I mean, nudge, nudge?
As built also the R-38s had a sliding cab window as opposed to the drop sash on the R32s.
ACTIVE R32's??? Well, 590 of the 600 cars ordered are still up and running about on the "A", "C", "E", "N" and "R" lines. I'd say they're a pretty active bunch of 35-year-olds.
The "E" line is just about 100% R32. The "C" is about 66.67% (2/3ds) R32.
Wayne
Gotham Turnstiles has a photo of one R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. There are also photos of 3-car trains of R-11s on the shuttle carrying #7/Franklin Ave. signs.
Have you ever seen any pics of the MS on the Franklin? I sure haven't...
Have you ever seen any pics of the MS on the Franklin? I sure haven't...
I haven't either. But during a period about 1959-1960, just before the first R27s were delivered, the BMT had such a critical car shortage that the TA dug out every piece of car equipment it could find and it seemed that when they shook the car pool, everything loose ended up on the Shuttle. If the MSs ever ran on the shuttle, that would have been the era.
That was when a group of Lo-Vs were fitted with skirts and sent to various BMT shuttle lines to help out.
According to my source, who may or may not be a contributor to this site:
"The Multi-Section cars ran on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle for one week in February, 1958."
"The Q-Types ran there for 5 hours on October 10, 1957."
"The ex-Staten Island cars ran there from May to August, 1959."
Wayne
It sounds as if the Qs were used there just before they went to the Myrtle Ave. el. But just for 5 hours? That's a bit odd. They would have been perfect if for no other reason than because they were lighter than steel subway equipment.
I'm sorry I can't answer your question as to '60s forward, since I'm not familiar with the mix of R-types that were used after all the original BMT equipment.
However, this is overall an interesting question, since I would argue that the Franklin Shuttle has seen more different types of equipment in regualr service in its history than any other single line or line segment. I say "regular service" because there's always the possibility that a converted Lo-V made a single run on the Brighton Express one day because of a diversion or something that noone remembers--and of course i don't count fantrips.
Note: "Not used" simply means equipment I have no personal recollection of seeing, either personally or in photos, but I'm sure others can fill in the blanks. I moved out of Brooklyn in 1972 so probably missed a good number.
Steam equipment
Its own equipment as BF&CI and Brooklyn and Brighton Beach.
LIRR equipment running from Atlantic Ave. terminal in joint operations years.
Elevated equipment
Every type of elevated motor and trailer car except Brooklyn Bridge, C's and Qs.
BRT/BMT/IND Subway equipment
Standards, Triplexes, the Zephyr, imported SIRT cars, R-11 (R-34), R27/30s, R68A. I can't recall first-hand memory of Bluebird, Hornet, Multi, R-1/9, R-10, R-16, R-32, R-38, either R-40, R-42, R-44 or R-46, but I'm sure others can fill in the blanks (with approx. dates, maybe?).
IRT equipment
Lo-Vs, modified.
Trolleys
The Brighton saw trolleys, entering at Prospect Park, Avenue C (Cortelyou Road) and Neptune Ave. Not sure Ave C was regular oepration, but there were switches.
But I don't know that regular passenger trolleys operated on the Franklin Shuttle portion.
Buses
I'm referring to the bus replacement shuttle during the recent rebuilding. I thought it might be fair game to list, since the buses were in direct substitution and some other lines had similar substitution--i.e., Sea Beach in 1913.
Comments additions corrections?
R32 was surely there - (the original) #3669 was involved in Malbone II on December 1, 1974.
Wayne
Good historical point, Wayne.
Doug aka BMTman
I started riding the Franklin Ave. Shuttle in the late 60's/early 70's and only recall the R-11 sets, and later the R-11/32 combinations.
I think Paul Matus should be able to assist in this area.
Doug aka BMTman
05/04/2000
Did the R1-9's and R-10's run on Franklin except for fan trips?
Also I seen images of one R-11 mixed with a pair of R-32's and yes a pair of R-38's !
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I seriously doubt R-9 or R-10 types ran on the Franklin -- at least not in regular service.
I'd think that the TA would have been scared to run heavy all-steel cars on the rapidly-disintegrating Franklin el structure. If those R types did run on the FS, I'd assume it was back in the days when the line was in better physical shape.
As far as I know the R-38's never ran as sets on the Franklin. They might have been teamed with 32's. I know the R-11/34's were ONLY paired with themselves or R-32's.
Doug aka BMTman
I thought the R-1/9 R-10 cars were lighter than the R-11s, so weight shouldn't have played a part. More likely, it was just that those cars rarely showed their faces on the Brighton line until after Chrystie St., with the R-1/9s keeping to themselves on the Culver line, while the R-10s plowed their normal route on the A. By the time the lines were jumbled in 1967, the R-11 had pretty much been consigned to shuttle duty.
The average R-1/9 weighed in at 84,000 pounds, a tad less then an R-16. The R-10s probably also tipped the scales at the 80,000 pound range. The R-1/9s did appear on the Brighton with regularity on the D line as well as the QJ. I rode on a D train of R-10s once in 1979 or 1980, so that marked one of the very few appearances of those cars on the Brighton. I must admit that it seemed strange indeed to see the R-10s signed up as a D; however, they thundered along CPW just as they did on the A.
It is doubtful if any of those cars were used on the Franklin Ave. shuttle for revenue operation.
The "D" was R-4 with a very occasional R-1.
The "QJ" was Eastern Division stock, R-7A and R-9.
Wayne
Yes, and the coolest part about the R-4s on the D was - no headlights! In fact, the last prewar D train I ever took didn't have them. I even stayed on it for an express run up CPW. The I-beams were nothing more than silhouettes, with only the tunnel lights providing illumination. And, of course, with the bull and pinion gears wailing away at about F# above middle C, it was music to my ears indeed.
The R-11/34 being stainless steel, would certainly weigh less than all-steel, heavy-constucted cars like R-1/9 & R-10's. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I'd surmise that the stainless steel equipment was easier on the Franklin el structure than the heavier all-steel cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Is it possible someone could post a map and or directions from some of the more recent fieldtrips, including the upcoming Sunday one? I missed the LIRR one and will most likely miss Sundays. I'd like to try doing it myself, or find a friend of some sort. But I'd hate to go without some form of directions, or guide. Especially on Staten Island. I have no sense of direction on Staten Island.
Or maybe we could try some of these fieldtrips again, when I can show up? As we did for the Polo Grounds?
Been researching the old roads of Manhattan that predated the street grid commissioned in 1811, but I've found out about some REALLY old streets in London.
"Ermine Street" is one of Britain's traditional "Royal Roads" dating from Roman times and probably earlier. The best known one is Watling Street, which runs from London (and is now the A5) to Shrewsbury. The others are Icknield Street and the Fosse Way. Ermine Street runs north from London towards Lincoln, and was a major Roman road. The most obvious straight stretch is now used by the A10 and A14, between Cheshunt (London) and Huntingdon. However, there is a Roman road called "Ermin Street" which touches the outskirts of Swindon and goes to the Roman town of Cirencester.
Of course when you take into account that Manhattan's Broadway and Brooklyn's Kings Highway are, in part, old Native American trails, those roads may be as old as London's Roman roads. Older, maybe.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am just curious if the R-110B is still operating on the C.
Has anyone seen it running THIS week?
Nick
For the past week or so, I've seen the R-110B just collecting dust at the 207th Street Yard!
Check the times
168th at 9:56 or 10:03
Euclid at 11:23 or 11:33!
If you see it, Great Luck!
R142 Boi 2K
last night at about 11:30 I was waiting for the Queens bound E or F at Lex when the garbage train came flying through toward queens, then it must have turned around because as I was getting on my F it was back, stopped on the downtown side to pick up garbage. Also there seems to be a series rat problem at Lex you can here them squeeling and we saw at least 15 or 20 rats on the tracks...
Saw the garbage train at 34th St./Bwy loaded and headed southbound on the express tracks aboout 10:30 last night. Must've been busy.
I also saw rats on the end of the Queens-bound platform at Roosevelt avenue at the Queens IND station there, mostly because of lots of garbage bags piled up there. That was the first time I saw them at platform level, usually they are on the tracks.
Rats are a major problem. The end of the Queens bound Queens Plaza station as well have those piles of heavily rat-infested garbage. Makes you wonder whether the rat poison actually reduced or increased the rat population...
Those rats have probably built up a resistance to rat poison by now.
Queens Plaza has lots of big ones on the platform at night crawlig all over the garbage bags
One night while waiting at Metropolitian Av Grand street station for a Brooklyn bound G there was trash under the stairs while some construction was going on. There must have been 50 rats at LEAST. They were crawling into the garbage bags (this is right on the plateform) and then running under the construction area. Their were so many rats that the bags were moving and you could see bumps in the bags moving around. Talk about nasty!
Our three boro "Field Trip" starts at Main Street on the Flushing line at 4 PM. Meet at the East end, i.e. the new section of the station to see the art work, escalators, elevator & very high ceiling. If time
permits the plan is to make three stops along the #7 line: At Woodside for a quick look at the renovated LIRR station; At 46th to see the stained glass in this renovated station; and Queensboro Plaza (if we're short of time we'll talk you through this mass of trackways left over from the trolley days). At Times Square at about 5 PM we'll wait for another Red Bird Express, although a R62 with a Railfan window would be OK too. On to Atlantic Ave non-stop (i.e. we're not getting off anywhere). Now the Red Bird part of the trip is done as we transfer to the N line at Pacific (we should make it here before 6 PM). We'll wait for a R-32 or a Slant 40.
Down the Sea Beach line to Coney Island we go for our tour of Stillwell Ave. There are a number of interesting parts of this station complex to see, but it realy won't take us too long to do it.
Now it's time for Frogs legs at Nathans, yes they'er still on the menu. As we return to the station the Salt Water Taffy shop may still be open. We'll complete the evening by taking the D to Brighten
Beach and wait for a Slant 40, then it's up the Brighton line as we drop off SubTalkers along the way. BTW, you can catch the Franklin Shuttle at Prospect Park on this line if you're a mind to.
Date: Wednesday May 17th, rain date is Wednesday May 24th
Fare: One F-U-N Pass
Hosts: Thurston Clark & Peggy Darlington
I'm going to post this to the Events list, and I'm going to try to make it however may I suggest one slight thing: If you DO get to Pacific Street before 6, stay there and wait until 6 to depart, so that those of 9 to 5'ers can make it to Pacific Street from Manhattan to meet up with you at that point. Does that sound okay to you Thurston and Peggy?
[If you DO get to Pacific Street before 6, stay there and wait until 6 to depart, so that those of 9 to 5'ers can make it to Pacific Street from Manhattan to meet up with you at that point.]
Great minds think alike ... that was the plan sorry I didn't make it clearer. The same goes for Times Square, we won't leave until 5 PM, but might not make it their until 5:15, i.e. the #7 is about 45 min, incl. two or three short stops & waiting for the next train may delay us a little ... that's way Queensboro Plaza maybe a TALK THRU, if we're running late we won't get off. The other two stops you realy have to get off to see what we're going to be talking about.
Mr t__:^)
According to the head of the Chicago Planning Department, Chicago requires two off-street parking spaces per housing unit in new buildings in the center of town. Not permits, requires. A huge new residential tower going up sits on top of a 19 story parking garage. It seems folks are convinced that people will not live in the Windy City without a suburban, auto-oriented lifestyle.
Compare that with NYC. We do not even allow much residential parking in Manhattan south of 110th Street. We require little if anything in the rest of Manhattan and the west Bronx. In my neighborhood, five miles out, no parking is permitted on lots less than 40 feet wide -- the requirement is one per housing unit. Even on the south shore of Staten Island, only one parking space per housing unit is required, although builders are allowed to provide more.
The thing is, if lots of new high-rise residential buildings were built in central Chicago, and all those residents tried to drive, how could there be enough room on the streets to accomodate all those cars?
The parking requirement in Chicago is largely to placate the many residents of the denser areas who complain that new development aggravates an already severe shortage of parking. Chicago is not like NYC in the sense that most Chicagoans do drive, and own cars, even if they do not use them to commute to work. NYC is pretty unique in America in having a culture where most people do not own cars.
I think what Chicago is doing is recognizing the reality that in most of the U.S., folks have a car, even in dense cities, even if transit meets many of their needs.
So they're saying: "you want to build residential space in dense areas--take responsibility by assuring you have parking for the cars they will generate."
(I think what Chicago is doing is recognizing the reality that in most of the U.S., folks have a car, even in dense cities, even if transit meets many of their needs).
I can understand requiring one parking space per unit, but TWO? Structured, those are $30,000 a piece.
It would be interesting to see comparative car-ownership statistics on Chicago and NYC. Chicago's rate is probably much higher, even though it surely is below the national average.
NYC is really in a class by itself on this point. Where else is it common for adults never to have gotten a driver's license? Even here in Chicago, getting a license is a rite of passage for most middle class teenagers.
[NYC is really in a class by itself on this point. Where else is it common for adults never to have gotten a driver's license? Even here in Chicago, getting a license is a rite of passage for most middle
class teenagers.]
And it's not just Manhattan. Car-ownership and licensure rates are way below national averages in the outer boroughs. Even in Staten Island, which is generally more suburban than urban in its development patterns and has many neighborhoods with poor transit, something like 20% of households (IIRC) have no cars and no licensed drivers.
I find that to be quite a remarkable fact about Staten Island. I would not have expected it. Does Staten Island have good public transit aside from the light rail line?
[re low car ownership rates on Staten Island]
[I find that to be quite a remarkable fact about Staten Island. I would not have expected it. Does Staten Island have good public
transit aside from the light rail line?]
Heavy rail, actually.
Staten Island does have a reasonably decent bus network, much of which provides feeder service to the Ferry terminal or to the rail line. Some neighborhoods also have express buses to Manhattan. My assessment is that Staten Island transit service is better than in most suburbs - which ain't sayin' much, of course - but worse, frequently a lot worse, than in most other parts of the city.
Car ownership rates probably vary quite a bit by neighborhood. Some of the poorer, higher density 'hoods along the north shore presumably have lower rates than the more affluent, more typically suburban areas farther south. I'd be interested in seeing statistics.
(Staten Island statistics)
I have them in the office, but NYC internet access has been terminated due to fear of "I Love You." As I recall, Staten Island car ownership is pretty damn high.
As for Chicago, we're not talking about requiring two spaces per unit on the outskirts of the city. We're talking about in and around the loop -- that's what doesn't make sense to me. If a car is for shopping and recreation, not travel to work, why do you need two? And if you don't work downtown, why live in the middle of Chicago? It doesn't make sense.
NYC auto ownership works like this:
The poor generally don't have cars, especially if they are immigrants.
The elderly generally don't have cars.
Young singles and couples generally don't have cars.
Middle- and upper-income families with children usually do have cars, even if they live in Manhattan.
The two car requirement is easily explained. Jersey City tried to get away with a one space per two unit ratio back in the mid-1980s, before the Crash (the response of the City Councilman sitting on the Planning Board at the time was classic: "I know they're making cars smaller, but I don't think you can fit two in one space"). It didn't work, and yuppie vehicles flooded corners and fire hydrants.
What is happening is that platonic roommates (the doubling up necessitated by astronomic rents, worse than Chicago's; as for the cost of the car and Jersey City's absurdly high insurance rates, this doesn't seem to enter the yuppie mindset) go their separate ways on weekends. As for Chicago being a Transit Town, I had an ex who broke up with me after her pot-smoking co-ed friends told her I had put her life in danger by taking the Congress to Oak Park after a concert at the United Center.
It all comes down to the following -- my car improves my quality of life and hurts yours, your car improves your quality of life and hurts mine. They should require one space, and charge for a permit to park on the street. If people are willing to pay for a second space, then builders can provide it. But to FORCE builders to provide it is absurd.
If you insist on having two cars, move to Piscataway.
Before the EPA forced the City to ban parking in new residential buildings in most of Manhattan, builders were required to provide parking. How much were they required to provide?
[NYC auto ownership works like this:
The poor generally don't have cars]
More precisely, they don't have cars that are registered or insured, and they don't have driver's licenses. That doesn't mean they don't drive, however.
Since I photographed them the other day, what's the definitive story? Did they go to a former LIRR platform?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes.
From http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/
Until the mid-20s, a parallel service to the old Sheepshead Bay race track and Manhattan Beach was provided by the LIRR and branched off from the (today) South Brooklyn freight line that crosses under the Brighton Line between Avenues H & I. The racertrack covered an area which extended approximately from Ave. X to Ave. Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. Evidence of the railroad line can be seen in various places:
-- The "unusually long" bridge abutments on the east side of many of the avenue crossings along the Brighton Line embankment. Some of the houses built along East 16th Street use these abutments to support backyard porches!
-- An abandoned tunnel or flying junction at Avenue X which was part of the R.O.W. of the BRT - Sheepshead Bay Race Track.
-- At Gravesend Neck Road & East 16 Street, there are blocked up "stairways to nowhere". At one time, they led to the Neck Road station of the LIRR Manhattan Beach line The widely-spaced stairways would seem to indicate side platforms.
FYI....
This same location (East 16 Street / Gravesend Neck Road)
was used during location filming for an episode of
the "Naked City" television program during the early 1960's.
The stretch of Neck Road from E. 15 to East 16 also appeared,
briefly, in the 1993 film "A Bronx Tale" starring Robert De Niro.
On October 7, 1886, a 250-foot water tower, erected at East 16 Street and Avenue "W" (one short block south) for the Kings County Water Works, exploded violently during a preliminary trial and flooding the surrounding area.
And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years. On hot summer evenings, I can swear I can still hear four-unit D-types flying past towards Brighton Beach.
Nice to see a discussion of my "home" station when I was growing up in Brooklyn. I remember well the west side of E. 16th St. from Neck Rd. to Ave. Y as being undeveloped RR right of way until the early 1960s, when row houses were built along there. In those days, you could easily see where the race track line branched off from the Brighton.
I also recall "stairways to nowhere" at Elm Ave. (Ave. M). The LIRR Manhattan Beach line had a station there also. I don't know if the Elm Ave. stairs are still there.
-- Ed Sachs
<< I remember well the west side of E. 16th St. from Neck Rd. to Ave. Y as being undeveloped RR right of way until the early 1960s, when row houses were built along there. >>
I do, too, and I can remember the sloped dirt paths. We called this area "the funny hills", which was "off limits" to us "urchins" of East 15th. I can also remember, vividly, the beatings we'd get when my father would catch me or my brother playing there.
It was from these same "funny hills" that during a particularly hot summer's afternoon in 1964, at a time when the D-types were laid up on the southbound express track overnight and weekends, my younger brother, Ernie, and another kid decided to engage in target practice with the windows of the last "unit" of a D-type.
When they were done, EVERY window on the side of that unit was broken.
(Even the "local/exp" signs.) I showed up om the scene as the next lay-up pulled up just behind his leader, and we watched the motorman step into that very same unit to turn off the car lights. Needless to say, he wasn't too happy with what he discovered. Surprisingly, no one in the neighborhood heard this happening so the police weren't called. (My brother passed away in 1980.)
The "fly-under" at Avenue "Y" is still there (you have to know where to look, though.) The part of the abutments that carried the L.I.R.R. (and extended to the sidewalk on East 16th were demolished about 15 years ago to make way for houses. The steel trestle (for the south-bound ramp) is still there, and visible from the East 15th Street side (although the tunnel is completely filled inn with scrap ballast.) We used to play in that tunnel during the late 1950's until we were convinced that "The Blob" lived there (yes, from the movie). The tunnel portion has shallow niches in the walls.
Our next-door neighbor, George Steininger, had worked as a motorman, starting with the B.R.T. in 1910. During the late 1940's until he retired in 1955, he operated on the Brighton Local, and on early Sunday mornings, he'd buy the Daily News at a newsstand on the platform at Times Square, wrap it with rubber bands, and toss it out of his cab window into his backyard for his wife. One morning, he missed, and it landed in our backyard. My father didn't get along with this guy. My sister, Virginia, who had fallen and scraped her head the day before, was brought to my neighbor's door along with the newspaper. My father pointed to the newspaper, then to the bandage on my sister's head. Needless to say, the deliveries stopped. (It's a good thing he wasn't dropping off bottles of milk.)
The T.A. installed fencing along the line during the early 1970's. Before that, neighborhood kids would climb up to the south-bound platform to save the one-way fare to Coney Island. I still have pennies we'd put on the rail; we would hope for a 67-foot car. They did a smashingly better job than a D-type.
Memories, memories . . . . .
[And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years.]
Could you supply a photo of that ramp to the website www.forgotten-ny.com? Kevin Walsh, the webmaster would probably be interested in something like that for his site.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years. On hot summer
evenings, I can swear I can still hear four-unit D-types flying past towards Brighton Beach. <<<
Any way you can get a shot of that ramp for...
www.forgotten-ny.com?
I don't want to invade any backyards. I get enough problems from neighborhood denizens just by showing up with a camera in the street sometimes...
That's where a telephoto or zoom lens comes in handy. I'll bet my 180-600 mm howitzer would do the trick.
Does anyone have information about the former right of way to Rockaway? The old (and no longer extant) is said to have cut south from the LIRR further west than the current r/w, which originates in the vicinity of the Valley Stream station. This may or may not be associated with the "Cedarhurst cut-off" that is another former LIRR r/w that no longer exists.
The LIRR turn off is called "Whitepot" and can still be seen from the LIRR main, but don't wait too long for the trees & grass to come up.
It includes a cut off (Eastbound/South) and duck under (Westbound/North).
Also see the other end at Rockaway Blvd. on the A (at the split).
Mr t__:^)
No, he wasn't talking about that. I'm sure he knows about that one. There is a former ROW that went to the Far Rockaway E/O the present Far Rock Line through the Five Towns around the turn of the century. Very little is left of it. Bob Anderson?? Can you help??
Yes, this is what I am referring to. According to one LIRR site, this line was electrified in the 30's, and then abandoned! I am originally from Rosedale (between Laurelton and Valley Stream) and am wondering if the route of this line might have gone through my old neighborhood. In any event, it sounds like an interesting story.
I have some information on this branch on my website at the bottom of the individual branches page. I got some of the information from the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
Thank you for your response. This is exactly what I was referring to. Could you direct me to a map that shows this old r/w? Thanks.
I don't have a map of it, but my guess is that, from Laurelton, it ran between Edgewood and Lansing, then between Edgewood and Huxley then through North Woodmere Park, and eventually to cross the current Far Rockaway branch of the LIRR (at that time the South Side RR) at Cedarhurst.
I grew up in that immediate neighborhood. I am tickled to discover that a RR might once have run within a block of my childhood home. I am doubtful about the siting between Edgewood and Huxley, because that strip, (always referred to as the "gulley" by locals) is low lying wetland that routinely flooded when heavy rains were met by high tides in the nearby tidal salt water swamps (now part of Jamaica Bay Wildlife Preserve I believe.) Nonetheless, I recall certain odd encroachments in what we referred to as the 'swamp' that may, in retrospect, have had something to do with the former presence of a railroad. If you are interested in my thoughts on this, feel free to contact me at mpk0@mailexcite.com (that is a zero after mpk by the way, not an "oh".)
I wonder if there are any maps around from, say around 1930 when the line was electrified, that would show enough detail to see exactly where the ROW went?
Yes, those would be ideal. I am in Chicago these days, and far from any obvious sources, although the NY Public Library might be a resource.
There is a map from 1917 at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/New_York_City_1917.jpg
It shows the path of the cutoff from Springfield Jct to Cedarhurst.
-- Kirk
[There is a map from 1917 at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/New_York_City_1917.jpg
It shows the path of the cutoff from Springfield Jct to Cedarhurst.]
Interesting map, but I'm suspicious of the 1917 date. It does not show the New York, Westchester and Boston line in the Bronx, which had been open for several years by that time.
Thanks for the map. It is hard to be entirely sure how the old r/w relates to the present street system, since almost none of the modern streets exist in this map! Not even the major ones like South Conduit Boulevard (Sunrise Highway)or Rockaway Boulevard. I can say for sure though, as someone who grew up in the area, that there is no trace of the r/w left in the residential neighborhoods. It is clear that all of the residential development occurred after the r/w was destroyed and the pattern of the development was not therefore effected by the old r/w.
There is an embankment of some sort that protrudes beyond the edge of residential development into undeveloped wetland. It may or may not have been a part of the route that the r/w took to cross the swampy areas between Rosedale and Cedarhurst. We always thought that it was an abandoned plan to extent the street system into the swamp for further development (things have changed, no way that wetland could be filled for development today.)
Thanks for the map. It is hard to be entirely sure how the old r/w relates to the present street system, since almost none of the modern streets exist in this map! Not even the major ones like South Conduit Boulevard (Sunrise Highway)or Rockaway Boulevard. I can say for sure though, as someone who grew up in the area, that there is no trace of the r/w left in the residential neighborhoods. It is clear that all of the residential development occurred after the r/w was destroyed and the pattern of the development was not therefore effected by the old r/w.
There is an embankment of some sort that protrudes beyond the edge of residential development into undeveloped wetland. It may or may not have been a part of the route that the r/w took to cross the swampy areas between Rosedale and Cedarhurst. We always thought that it was an abandoned plan to extend the street system into the swamp for further development (things have changed, no way that wetland could be filled for development today.)
On page 78 of "Change at Ozone Park" there is a picture of the ROW and the caption reads:"A 1951 view of the right of way of the abandoned Laurelton-Cedarhurst Cutoff just after it turned away from the station area. The site now has a home on it and one would never know a railroad ran there"
The more I think about this old r/w, the more I think there is a remnant of an embankment through the south shore wetlands no more than a block from where I grew up in Rosedale.
Brighton Line #1
Once again, it's time to report what I saw from the depths of my aprtment window. Another 5 car set of Bombardier R-142s have appeared in test service. These cars were delived a week and a half ago by the SBK. Cars 6311-6315 went on the road, southbound last night about 11PM. The test train was followed by a protection train made up of cars that the 142s will eventually replace, R-26s, 28s, and 29s from the 5. Strange.... On several occassions, personnel utilized an electric locomotive (E02) as the protection train. I guess it wasn't available this time around.
I haven't seen the new Kawasaki 5 car unit, but I expect it to be out and around at sometime....
-Stef
Tell me, what is a "protection train"? Thanks.
In this case it's a train they can use to couple onto a disabled train (in case the R142 test train fails) and pull/push it out of the way.
-Dave
That's sounds about right unless someone says otherwise. God forbid if there's trouble, someone's got to get the test train out of the way to keep traffic from being held up. Call it teething problems right now. With the sincerest hopes, those cars should be considred reliable considering the TA has very high expectations of how this equipment should perform.
-Stef
About what percent of the 142's are "tried and true" proven subway technologies, and how much are untested new engineering?
thats the question the what I have coined "" the transverse-cab-car club "" and thier supporters can not answer !!..
A follow up to your thread "" new ""does not always mean built better.... In total agreement with your post
"" tried and true & time proff proven subway technologies "" and many untested new to not so fail-safe enginerring ..
( try to explain this common sense to the transverse-cab-car-club !! ).........................!!!
finally check out the anger when you correctly post this and point this out !! .. the hysteria over the
""newness"" of the r-142s !!! the truth you said correctly is like shining bright light in a dark room full of roaches and watching them scatter !!
Actually I can't give you a figure. Someone else working closely with the project might know.
But I will tell you this, every train set will go through some teething problems. That's what this testing is for. To work out the bugs before large quantities of so called new cars are delivered. If there's a problem with some particular feature of the car, the option for the TA would be to review the design flaws, whatever it maybe. They can fix the problem by making revisions, or just drop the particular feature in question.
We're having this discussion about the proven technologies of the R-142s, but keep in mind these will not be the first cars to have had any kind of trouble the first time on the road (if any). The R-62s and the R-68s were troublesome at first. As I recall, didn't they go on to become among the most reliable cars in the fleet? What does that say? What critic can predict the future and say that the R-142s won't be proven to be reliable? If there's a fortune teller out here who knows how things will turn out, I'd like to hear about it.
-Stef
P.S. As a side note, on this particular topic, the R-142 test train returned several minutes ago with a protection train trailing and headed northbound to E180th St Yard.
The new car acceptance program consists of 72 separate tests, of which the 30-day in-service test is Number 72. Some of the tests must be done individually, while others can be done concurrently. At any rate, they're not up to Number 72 yet and won't be for a few weeks.
David
72 Tests? That's pretty good. At least they're working on producing results. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that the 142s get through all the tests and especially test 72 without incident.
Regards,
Stef
Does anyone know (or know some who knows) how the testing is proceeding. Either good, bad, or something inbetween?
Does anyone know when the SBK receives new subway cars? I would love to go down to Brooklyn to see them unload them of of ships.
The cars are no longer brought through the South Brooklyn Yards! Most of them are trucked in or locomotived in!
R142 Boi 2K
What R142 Boi 2K is trying to say is that car deliveries are done at locations other than the yard at the piers. SBK engines are utilized for such deliveries of cars, but deliveries are done at Linden Yard on the east end of Brooklyn, where the SBK units pick up the cars from the NY and Atlantic Rwy.
-Stef
So far, the test have been going great, not much adjusting needed to be done. The only problem they had was during the Trip Cock test but by now I'd guess that they'd have that adjusted and up to par.
It was the Bombardier set that was really having the Trip Cock problem.
R142 Boi 2K
OK, folks, sharpen your pencils. Implied routes are not necessarily from today's service patterns. Some questions may have more than one correct answer. Good luck! Here we go:
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The routes are the B and D, the terminals are CI and 57/7.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
Dont' know
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
The E and F. The stations are W 4 St and Jay Street
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
B and D
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
C and AA
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
F and G
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
dont know
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
N and R
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 4 and 6
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
dont know
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
E and F
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become? DONT KNOW
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded. dont know
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
At 47-50/6, the F is to the east of the B/D/Q. At 42/6, the F is on the west.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them. 5 and 6
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes. 7 and shuttles
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
2 and 3
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
dont know
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they? 2 and 5
BTW, great quiz. Post answers once others get a chance to post their responses.
2: Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
(F) and at 34th St & CI
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
(1) and (3)
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
(D) and (E) at 53rd & 7th.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
(7) and (L)
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
(D) and (Q)
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
(A) and (C)
2: Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
(F) and < N > at 34th St & CI
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
(1) and (3)
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
(D) and (E) at 53rd & 7th.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
(7) and (L)
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
(D) and (Q)
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
(A) and (C)
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
My guess would be A & AA
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
My guess would be B & M
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
My guess is A & C
18 is D and Q. I just realized it.
"4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?"
But for one station in the difference -- Nereid Ave. (238th St.) vs. Wakefield-241st St., that would describe the 2 and the rush-hour 5 today.
"8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them."
The N and the R.
"9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them."
The rush-hour 5 and the 6.
"15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them."
The non-rush-hour 5 (terminating at Bowling Green) and the 6 (terminal at Brooklyn Bridge).
"16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes."
The L and the 7.
"17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them."
The 2 and the 3.
"19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn."
The A and the C.
Here's my answers -- some of the questions seemed to duplicate and I wasn't able to figure them all out.
1. The N and Q left Stillwell from opposite directions and both wound up at 57th Street in Manhattan.
2.
3. E & F from 179th, were on two levels at West 4th, and side-by-side and Jay Street/Boro hall.
4. 2 & 5
5. AA & BB
6. F & GG
7.
8. N & RR (?)
9. 5 & 6
10. CC & D
11. #7 is one of them
12.
13. 53rd St./Seventh Avenue on the B & D
14. D & F between 47/50th & 42nd.
15.
16. 7 & L
17-20. ?
This is without looking at any of the responses, and by someone from Philadelphia, and without a map. So I'm not cheating.
6. If it wasn't for the "Brooklyn" part, I'd say A and C.
11. E and F
16. 7 and L
20. 4 and some 5s
19. J and M
10 and 9. 1 and 3
17. 2 and 3
8. N and R
15. 5 and 6
I'll try my best at these...
1. No idea - but I think they're from Times Square to Coney Island...
2. The E and GG lines, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
3. The E and F, on different levels at West 4th Street, and across at Jay Street.
4. Probably the 2 and the since shortened 5 thru-express, beginning at 241 Street and ending at Flatbush.
5. B (168 - 34 at the time) and C (168 - WTC).
6. The G and F.
7. The A and 168-World Trade Center C.
8. The N and R lines... too bad about that bridge situation.
9. Probably the 4 and 5 (Bowling Green version). But the 4 and 6 are also possible.
10. The 1/9 and 3 lines.
11. The E and F lines - express in Queens, local in Manhattan.
12. The N and EE became the (N) and <N>, running (N) 57th to Coney Island (express on Broadway) and <N> 71-Continental to Whitehall (local on Broadway)
13. 7th Avenue and 53rd Street: the E to Queens and the B/D to Central Park West. (I consulted one relevant track map for this one.)
14. Probably the southbound-only B and F on 49th - 42nd.
15. The 5 to Bowling Green and the 6.
16. The L line and 7 line (if you don't count the 7 express as another line). The two main shuttles also don't share track with any others.
17. The 2 and 3 lines.
18. The D and Q, currently.
19. The A and C on weekends.
20. The B and D, obviously.
1.?????
2. ???????
3. E and F W.4St and Jay St
4. 2 and 5
5. C and K ???
6. F and G
7. ????????
8. N and R
9. 1 and 2 or 4 and 6
10. 1 and 3
11. E and F
12. ?????
13. ??????
14. D and F CI Bound 47-50 then 42St
15. 5 and 6
16. 7 and L
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q
19. A and C
20. 2 and 5
BM34x
1. QB and N; 57th Street-7th Avenue
2. E and GG, Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street.
3. E and F, West 4th street and Jay Street
4. 2 and 5, Flatbush Avenue? BTW they diverge in the Bronx at Mott Avenue.
5. AA and BB.
6. F and GG, or today's F and G.
7. A and AA, with today's equivalent being the A and C.
8. N and R.
9. 4 and 5.
10. 1 and 3
11. E (in Queens) and N (in Brooklyn, on 4th Avenue)
12. This is a guess: EE and N...
13. N and 7 at Qveensboro Plaza. The N appears to be operating lefthanded on the Queens-bound upper level and the 7 appears to be operating lefthanded on the Manhattan-bound lower level.
14. F and B/D/Q at 47th-50th Street and 42nd Street.
15. 5 and 6, at Bowling-Green and Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, respectively.
16. L and 7.
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q.
19. A and C
20. B and D.
Wayne
1. N and QB: 57 St/7 Av-Coney Island
2. GG and E, Hoyt-Schermerhorn
3. E and F, West 4th Street (different levels), Jay St (cross platform)
4. 2 and rush hour 5
5. AA and 1 (not 242 Street trains)
6. F and G
7. A and AA, now C
8. N and R
9. 4 and 6
10. 1 and 3
11. E, F, N, 6*, 7*
12. RR, RJ --> RR
13. B, D, E; 7th Avenue; both directions
14. Downtown 6th Av line, Rockefeller Center-42 Street
15. 5 and 6
16. 7 and L
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q
19. A and C
20. B and D
Looks Easy...
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The QB and the NX both left Brighton Beach Station in opposite directions, and both terminated at 57/7. The NX ran via the Sea Beach, the QB via the Brighton. Also, during the north side Manny B shutdown, the D, B, and N did the same thing, most hours. The D left Coney Island southbound and ran via Brighton, the B left northbound and ran via West End, the N northbound and via Sea Beach. Oh, and let's not forget various different permutations of the Nassau Street Loop service, when it ran via the Manhattan Bridge.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
This one has me a bit stumped. I can only think of the Jamacia/Lexington and Myrlte Ave Els. But they ran together from Brooklyn and had seperate stations near Myrtle and Washington, IIRC. Was the downtown Brooklyn terminal a loop? Now, if you want to think PARALLEL instead of on the same track, the F and one of the versions of the KK. The F would enter all the 6th Ave stations from the north, while the KK would enter from the south.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
This would be the E and F prior to 1974? or so. The E used to be Queens Blvd/8 Ave/Fulton, and the F was Queens Blvd/6 Ave/Culver. They'd run together on Queens Blvd, split up at 53St/5Ave meet on seperate levels at W4St, split up again, and meet again across the platform at Jay St in Brooklyn, and then split again.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
That is most likely the 2 and the 5 from 241St to Nostrand Ave, Utica Ave, or New Lots Ave, depending on exactly when the train left the terminal in the Bronx.
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
The AA (later K) and CC (later C) The AA was a daytime, non-rush train from WTC to 168st; the CC replaced it on weekends from WTC to 145St. And though technically a shuttle, the Grand St Shuttle from Grand St to 57St.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
The F and G.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
The AA, B, and C come to mind immediately, with the AA and B coming from 168, and the C from 145. The AA ended at WTC, the C and B continued to Brooklyn. But I don't think they all ran together at the same time from those terminals. Most definately the AA and C did not.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
The N and R. The N from Astoria, the R from Forest Hills run on the Broadway and 4Ave lines between Lexington Ave and 59St (Brooklyn) where they split up; the R continuing on the 4Ave line, the N going to the Sea Beach.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 2 on the West Side, the 4 and 6 on the East Side. The 1 from W242 and B'way, the 2 from E241 and White Plains Rd. The 1 ends at South Ferry, while the 2 runs to Nostrand Ave in Brooklyn. The 4 starts at Woodlawn and Jerome in the Bronx, the 6 from Pelham Bay Park. The 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, the 4 continues to Utica Ave in Brooklyn.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 3. The 1 from the Bronx (see previous) and the 3 from Lenox Terminal. See previous for the 1, while the 3 runs to New Lots Ave in Brooklyn.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
The F, 6, and 7 all fit this answer. The F on Queens Blvd, the 6 on the Pelham Line, and the 7 on the Flushing Line. All 3 have express service, but are local in Manhattan, unless there's a GO.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
I'm thinking QJ and RJ, but I'm also thinking B and TT. Can't dfetail my answer since I'm actually not sure here.
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean the northbound is on the left, 7Ave/53St fits for the B and D on the lower level, and the southbound E on the upper level. If you mean Express on the left southbound, that's 47-50 Rockerfeller Center where the B, D, and Q come from Columbus Circle or 21st.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
B/D/F/Q Southbound 47-50 and 42St on the 6Ave Line.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
The 5 and 6, East Side IRT. The 5 starts at Dyre Ave or 238St and ends at Bowling Green, the 6 starts at Pelham Bay Park and ends at Brooklyn Bridge. Both run on the East Side IRT.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
The Flushing (7) Line and Canarsie (L) Line. Of course, the Times Square and Franklin Ave shuttles fit this answer as well.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
The midday B and the D. D from 205St via the Concourse line, the B from 145st on the CPW Line. Both share track from 145/St. Nicholas Ave to the Myrtle Ave Jct. coming off the Manhattan Bridge, where the D makes a station stop and runs on the Brighton, and the B skips the station and runs on the West End. The night B also works, but alas, its terminal is Queens, however, pre 1993 this would have been a good answer.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The A from 207 and C from 168, both via 8Ave/Fulton lines.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
The B and D. See previous answers to previous questions
-Hank
Looks Easy...
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The QB and the NX both left Brighton Beach Station in opposite directions, and both terminated at 57/7. The NX ran via the Sea Beach, the QB via the Brighton. Also, during the north side Manny B shutdown, the D, B, and N did the same thing, most hours. The D left Coney Island southbound and ran via Brighton, the B left northbound and ran via West End, the N northbound and via Sea Beach. Oh, and let's not forget various different permutations of the Nassau Street Loop service, when it ran via the Manhattan Bridge.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
This one has me a bit stumped. I can only think of the Jamacia/Lexington and Myrlte Ave Els. But they ran together from Brooklyn and had seperate stations near Myrtle and Washington, IIRC. Was the downtown Brooklyn terminal a loop? Now, if you want to think PARALLEL instead of on the same track, the F and one of the versions of the KK. The F would enter all the 6th Ave stations from the north, while the KK would enter from the south.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
This would be the E and F prior to 1974? or so. The E used to be Queens Blvd/8 Ave/Fulton, and the F was Queens Blvd/6 Ave/Culver. They'd run together on Queens Blvd, split up at 53St/5Ave meet on seperate levels at W4St, split up again, and meet again across the platform at Jay St in Brooklyn, and then split again.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
That is most likely the 2 and the 5 from 241St to Nostrand Ave, Utica Ave, or New Lots Ave, depending on exactly when the train left the terminal in the Bronx.
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
The AA (later K) and CC (later C) The AA was a daytime, non-rush train from WTC to 168st; the CC replaced it on weekends from WTC to 145St. And though technically a shuttle, the Grand St Shuttle from Grand St to 57St.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
The F and G.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
The AA, B, and C come to mind immediately, with the AA and B coming from 168, and the C from 145. The AA ended at WTC, the C and B continued to Brooklyn. But I don't think they all ran together at the same time from those terminals. Most definately the AA and C did not.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
The N and R. The N from Astoria, the R from Forest Hills run on the Broadway and 4Ave lines between Lexington Ave and 59St (Brooklyn) where they split up; the R continuing on the 4Ave line, the N going to the Sea Beach.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 2 on the West Side, the 4 and 6 on the East Side. The 1 from W242 and B'way, the 2 from E241 and White Plains Rd. The 1 ends at South Ferry, while the 2 runs to Nostrand Ave in Brooklyn. The 4 starts at Woodlawn and Jerome in the Bronx, the 6 from Pelham Bay Park. The 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, the 4 continues to Utica Ave in Brooklyn.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 3. The 1 from the Bronx (see previous) and the 3 from Lenox Terminal. See previous for the 1, while the 3 runs to New Lots Ave in Brooklyn.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
The F, 6, and 7 all fit this answer. The F on Queens Blvd, the 6 on the Pelham Line, and the 7 on the Flushing Line. All 3 have express service, but are local in Manhattan, unless there's a GO.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
I'm thinking QJ and RJ, but I'm also thinking B and TT. Can't dfetail my answer since I'm actually not sure here.
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean the northbound is on the left, 7Ave/53St fits for the B and D on the lower level, and the southbound E on the upper level. If you mean Express on the left southbound, that's 47-50 Rockerfeller Center where the B, D, and Q come from Columbus Circle or 21st.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
B/D/F/Q Southbound 47-50 and 42St on the 6Ave Line.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
The 5 and 6, East Side IRT. The 5 starts at Dyre Ave or 238St and ends at Bowling Green, the 6 starts at Pelham Bay Park and ends at Brooklyn Bridge. Both run on the East Side IRT.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
The Flushing (7) Line and Canarsie (L) Line. Of course, the Times Square and Franklin Ave shuttles fit this answer as well.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
The midday B and the D. D from 205St via the Concourse line, the B from 145st on the CPW Line. Both share track from 145/St. Nicholas Ave to the Myrtle Ave Jct. coming off the Manhattan Bridge, where the D makes a station stop and runs on the Brighton, and the B skips the station and runs on the West End. The night B also works, but alas, its terminal is Queens, however, pre 1993 this would have been a good answer.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
The Q from Queens and the D from the Bronx. They meet at 47-50, and operate togther down 6Ave, over the Manhattan Bridge, and down the Brighton line. The Q ends at Brighton Beach, while the D continues to Coney Island.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The A from 207 and C from 168, both via 8Ave/Fulton lines.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
The B and D. See previous answers to previous questions
So, What do I win?
-Hank
I'm interested in how the cams gradually reduce resistance to the traction motors during acceleration. How fast are the resistance steps notched out? Is it dependent on current speed (a feedback system) or does it just happen at some preset rate? About how long does it take for the cam to travel the full extent (which I guess is related to the rate of acceleration the car is capable of)?
Hope some of you tech oriented sub-talkers can shed some light on this.
Bill J.
I think it's time for the subtalktechies to write a book, or
at least a web page! Actually, Ray & Ray of the Electric
Railroader's Association I think are working on a series of articles
on the topic of controls.
Here goes. You seem to know that there is a cam which advances,
at each step closing a switch that bypasses another portion of the
grid resistance. The cam is advanced by a battery-voltage (38 volts)
motor on General Electric cars and by an air piston on Westinghouse
cars (although the TA is now replacing the older WH gear with
E-CAM which I think uses a pilot motor....Steve will jump in if
I'm wrong since he's dealing with E-CAM these days).
When the train is running in Switching, the cam does not advance
and resistance stays in the circuit continuously. When the controller
is moved to Series, the cams start to advance. There are 9 steps
in series. At the 9th step, the motors are in series with each other
and the line, and all resistance is removed. If the controller
is in Series then the cam will not advance further. If the controller
is in Parallel, the cam will be allowed to advance further into
the parallel notches (on GE controllers the cam actually runs backward
here). There are 8 parallel notches..In the first resistance is
re-inserted into the circuit, except now the motors are in parallel.
By the last parallel notch, each motor group is directly across
the line. Then there are an additional 2 notches of field shunting,
but that's been disabled on the entire fleet. Grrrrr.
What controls the advance of the cam, you asked? (yes, you did)
The current flowing through the motor circuit is continuously
measured. On older cars they used a series-wound relay, now they
use a solid-state circuit. Whenever the cam advances, resistance
is notched out, and therefore current increases. The cam then
holds in that notch until the current subsides. This happens because
as the car gains speed, the counter-EMF increases and opposes the
line voltage. When the current reaches a preset value, called
the notching current, the cam is allowed to advance another notch.
The torque, and therefore the acceleration rate, produced by a
series DC motor is directly related to the current through it.
I'd say it is proportional, but it is not....it is a messy non-linear
equation. Nonetheless, for a given motor current there will be
a given torque. The notching current is therefore selected to deliver
a specific torque based on the weight and gear ratio of the car.
This tuning is done by the manufacturer.
All this would be fine except that weight varies as a function of
passenger loading. There is a sensor that measures the loaded
weight of the car. This measurement is taken every time the car
doors close, the logic being that passenger loading shouldn't change
while the doors are shut! A circuit increases or decreases the
notching current setpoint depending on sensed weight. The effect
is to deliver an approximately constant acceleration rate regardless
of loading. There are now speedometers in all cars, but they do
not form a part of the control loop for the motors.
How long does it take the cam to reach the last notch? In theory,
this would be a constant time since the acceleration rate is fixed.
In practice, grade is not factored into the rate circuits. A train
will accelerate faster than the spec rate (which is 2.5 MPHPS)
on a downgrade and slower on an upgrade. This will affect how long
each notch is held. Regardless, the last notch is reached somewhere
between 16 and 22 MPH.
Did you know that you can notch up a train by hand? Unfortunately,
you can only use this technique to make the train notch up more
slowly. There is no way to "kick" the groups (a feature that is
provided on some older trolley car MU systems).
I hope this is helpful.
"All this would be fine except that weight varies as a function of passenger loading. There is a sensor that measures the loaded weight of the car. This measurement is taken every time the car doors close, the logic being that passenger loading shouldn't change while the doors are shut!
Formerly, the car's weight was monitored by a device called the 'Load Sensor'. It was activated by the Guard Light finger on the 'signal light relay' (SLR). When the doors closed, the car was weighed by a change in air pressure. That's why you heard that little puff when the doos closed. Of course, if 20 or 30 people boarded at the front of the train and the doors closed. the first car was weighed. Then as they walked towards the rear of the train in search of seats, the equilibrium in accelleration & braking was upset. Hence, today we use a slightly different system. A valve mounted over the #1 truck, called a load sensor, continually measures the car weight. The propulsion package is immediately updated as to any change in car weight,resulting in a smoother ride.
Wow! Jeff H. and Train Dude, thanks. I think you guys just wrote a good first draft for the propulsion article! I had no idea the control system was that sophisticated.
Does the loading factor adjustment help prevent cars from bumping and tugging on each other as the train starts out? IIRC in the old days on Philly's Broad Street subway and even some of the older redbirds there was a lot of bumping and banging as trains pulled out of stations.
Thanks again for your well written and informative answers.
Bill J.
The whole thing sounds like an empty/load valve on a coal gon.
Oh that's nothing. Let's talk about AC drive with it's choppers, inverters, GTO's and thyristors.
Wait, you called both things a load sensor. The older system
was called a "variable load valve", and was mounted on the car
body with a connecting rod that rested on the truck bolster. Thus,
as the car was loaded, the deflection of the bolster increased and
this adjusted the position of both a potentiometer for the propulsion
package and a relay valve for the air brakes. The variable load
reset magnet valve latched the rod position when the doors closed.
The only cars I know of that still use that system are the Flushing
33/36 fleet.
How is load sensed using the new load sensors? Is it a strain gauge,
or mechanical? How does the system prevent hunting and bouncing
from affecting the reading (a low pass filter I'd imagine)?
Jeff, you are 100% correct. In my rush this AM I did call both Load Sensors and as you properly pointed out, the former was called the variable Load valve. As for how the load sensor works, it's very similar in operation to the Variable Load Valve. There is a striker plate mounted on the #1 truck and the valve is mounted on the car body above it. The position of the bolster determines the position of striker plate and consequently, the load sensor arm. The valve acts as a transducer, converting the mechanical position of the arm into a variable air pressure signal (15 - 75 LBS I think). Whereas the variable load sensor repositioned a rheostat each time the side doors were closed, the load sensor sends continuous signals to the propulsion logic which allows the logic circuit to continually re-calculate the load & adjust for it.
So it is basically the same thing except there is no freeze
when the doors are open and there is no rheostat.
Looking over my GE drawings for SCM-I, I answer my other question
about rocking. It appears that a capacitor is connected across
the load sensor pressure transducer circuit to act as a low-pass.
Got on this train (this or the 16:48 I use everyday) coming home from work. Since I wasn't dog-tired, I decided to look out the railfan window. I immediatly took notice of a radio conversation the TO was having with the tower. Much of it was garbled but I distinctly heard "front truck of motor car 4488". I suspected something was wrong but the train was operating fine. However, as soon as we switched over to the middle track at Essex St I suspected that the train would get discharged. I was right. Anyone know what exactly caused this train to be take out of service? The train ran fine from Fulton to Essex.
What is a railfan window? Why is this not explained in the FAQ?
[What is a railfan window? Why is this not explained in the FAQ?]
It's the window in the front door of a subway's lead car, right next to the motorman's cab. You'll also see them on LIRR and Metro North electric trains. Unfortunately, some subway car models (R-44 and up, except R-62) have full-width cabs and hence no railfan windows.
Actually the R62s are starting to lose them. They're gone from the 1 Line now.
WHOOPS!!! Peter Rosa said R62s. Those run on the 4 Line. They have no more railfan windows. The R62As out of Van Cortlandt Park Yard (Red Stickers) have full width cabs as well. They don't have it neither. Actually, I believe that all 5 cars set trains don't have them anymore. The only ones that I know that have them are the ones from the 3 Line (Singles).
There is absolutely no reason why railfan windows and transverse cabs don't mix. Ever seen the cab window on the HBLR?
I looked through a pseudo-railfan window on a R-62 #4 train yesterday. As long as the Train Operator's cab door window and the storm door window are both unobstructed (which they are supposed to be by rule), it's possible.
David
There's a rule against obstucting the pseudo-railfan window? Why, then, do I sometimes see newspapers, advertisements, etc. covering them, and what's with the glass on the R44, 46, 68(A) cars? It's not completely clear, and some of the light passing through it gets distorted.
The window on the 44/46/68/68A has a polarizer on it, which reduces the glare on the windows in the cab. You see black if you look left or right, but the view straight ahead is somewhat distorted.
-Hank
Newspapers, etc. sometimes obstruct the Train Operator's window because some Train Operator put them there. It's done either for glare or for privacy. Doing something doesn't make it legal or within the rules to do so.
David
Well, apparently you've never read any of salaam allah's old threads (you're saner for it, believe me!). However, railfan windows are actually the viewing window on the end-doors -- or more appropriately the storm-doors -- of subway/rapid transit cars. In most cases they give an excellent view of the road ahead, and are naturally the place where railfans tend to congregate -- hence 'railfan window'.
Doug aka BMTman
.............but If I answered this then I would have to endure a long line of children launching
flamage attacks and personal insults etc......
what i do like about railfan window equipped transit cars is an oppertunity to show on vidieo
what it is like to ride on such equipment I am only sorry that nightshot and 0.6. light lux 8 mm vidieo
camcorders with lp speed 4 hour recording modes were around during the days of the pre world war 2
subway and transit cars etc... !! especially with the 0.6 light lux and 0 light lux ""nightshot ""...!!!
In Chicago, they used to have a railfan seat before OPTO. Now they
block the whole front end off of trains that don't have full-width
cabs.
IIRC, there was a CTA president who was a railfan himself. He saw to it that cars built during his tenure had a railfan seat. The funny thing is, I never sat in one of them. I always stood at the storm door.
i found that out when like in 1981 i tried to shoot thru the railfan window only to find out that
"" the transverse cab car club "" was alive and well ....!! ruined my chicago experence ...
Actually there might be a way to get all those cab door windows cleaned up. How bout making it a public safety issue? If the windows are obscured, the operator (who has a radio for help) can never see what's going on in the passenger compartment.
It's an easy play for some politician to make and the MTA wouldn't have a leg to stand on (nor would the operators).
With apologies to those of you who drive trains and don't like goofy people staring at you..
Bill J.
Stupid idea. Who watches the other 6-7-8 cars of the train that DON'T have a crewman now? This is another failure of the anti-OPTO arguement. The majority of the cars are already unstaffed!
-Hank
I was reading a placard in the Customs House today, and it referred to a planned subway station in the sub-basement that has been converted to an auditorium. It seems that the original tile walls are still in place. Anyone know what it was intended for?
I'm sorry but where's the Customs House? I know where the current one is in the WTC complex but I suspect you are talking about the older one?
-Dave
[I'm sorry but where's the Customs House? I know where the current one is in the WTC complex but I suspect you are talking about the older one?]
At the foot of Bowling Green. It currently houses the Museum of the American Indian and the bankruptcy court.
See Ghost Buster II for exterior view.
since the custom house is right over Bolwing Green it might be part of it
[since the custom house is right over Bolwing Green it might be part of it]
The Bowling Green Lexington Avenue station is immediately to the west, on Broadway/State Street, while the N/R Whitehall Street Station is immediately east.
It's a spectacular building with a wonderful location, and whenever I'm there I toy with the idea of turning it into a train station.
You'd just have to screw the American Indian again, that's all.
-Hank
why do you want to screw american indians again ?
[You'd just have to screw the American Indian again, that's all.
-Hank ]
I'd leave the museum pretty much where it is. If anything, traffic would increase.
Whatever happened to the R110?
05/04/2000
[Whatever happened to the R110?]
If you're talking about the R-110A (IRT), it seems to have died from lack of parts. Revival of any kind is not certain.
Now the R-110B (BMT-IND), some on this site say it's laid up and some say it's running. If anybody out there can help the flange master, speak up!
Bill Newkirk
The R110Ais not in revenue service anymore...but have no fear, a better version called the R142 will be in service come this summer.
Apparently the R110B makes a couple trips a day M-F, and leaves Euclid ave at either 9:56 or 10:06 AM, and sometimes makes an afternoon trip too....but this schedule is not always followed. -Nick
Will the R-110's be rebuilt to be compatable and run with the new trains when they are all delivered?
The bodies can't be that different from the production cars, and if they are rebuilt and upgraded with the new running gear so they are compatable with the new cars they could get some extra life out of them.
Outside of the R-143 being 6-1/2 feet longer, maybe there's no difference between the R-110B and R-143 carbodies :-)
David
I must remember to engage brain before fingers...
The R-110B, at 67 feet long, is 6-1/2 feet longer than the R-143, at 60-1/2 feet.
David
Can anyone ID this loco?
Daniel
Can anyone ID this loco?
Daniel
It looks like it might be a GM SW 1200. I may be wrong about the model but it sure looks to be built by General Motors. It is probably about 40 years old.
EMD Sw7, SW9, and SW l200 almost identical in appearance, but the Diesel Spotters Guide spotting features rule out the SW7; most likely al200 as these were a very little bit newer built between l954 and l966. The SW9 from l95l thru l953. I had a blast running these on Montana Rail Link at Laurel Yard... not much for tonnage but sure were lively.. better than their successor.
What are L200, L954, L966, L95L and L953? Aircraft manufactured by Lockheed?
Looks like a SW1200
If you learned how to type in the days before computers or electric typewriters, a lower-case 'L' is what you used for a '1', since the keyboard lacked it. A buddy of mine has an anchient Smith-Corona; standard QWERTY layout, but no '1' key.
This concludes our brief history lesson.
-Hank
What about the other numbers, how would one type them?
There were keys for 2-9 and a 0, which on a typewriter was different enough that it mattered. Most of the punctuation was on different keys, not as the shift for the numbers.
-Hank
I can identify this unit. The official designation is SSB1200. They are rebuilds of older switchers from the 1950s, namely the SW9. SSB1200 stands for Switcher San Bernadino, 1200 horsepower. The locomotives are of Santa Fe origin, rebuilt at the San Bernadino Shops in California, and upgraded to 1200 horsepower. 18 SSB1200s were traded to AMTK in the 1980s for other equipment that AMTK desired to dispose of. You can find these in numerous locations, but I can tell you that you can find the SSB1200s at Sunnyside Yard in Queens, and up in New Haven, CT.
Hope this helps,
Stef
Specifically, they were traded for a smaller number of SDP40Fs, the original lemon.
-Hank
Right. Amtrak got rid of it's SDP40Fs in exchange for the SSB1200s and the CF7s. You can still find those SSB1200s on the road, but most CF7s are probably gone, these days.
-Stef
Amtrak may have thought they were lemons -- but seventeen of the eighteen are still running on the BNSF nowadays. The other one? It was wrecked in one of those nasties on Cajon Pass, north of San Bernardino, CA.
Kinda like some certain "lemons" that NYCTA had -- they "went elsewhere" and many of them are still running, quite well, to this day (and right across the river, at that....)
Ah, Yes, the SDP40F, Now Known as SDF40's on BNSF they weighed something like 210 tons and were a high speed engine. when combined with the bad track of the time, there were several derailments., some theories centered on the HTC truck (Same truck used on the magnificent MFE36D6 (SD45-2) Erie Lackawanna engines) Unfortunately this misconception led to Conrail specifying old style Flexicoils for it's SD40-2's although the HTC was a far superior truck. Yes, ATSF got a good deal on some fine locomotives.
The following is a message from the Metropolitan Transit Authority.
We will be shutting down train service on the #7 between Manhattan and Queens this weekend. We will also be cancelling J train service over the Williamsburg Bridge. We've noticed that service has gotten rather reliable of late, and we don't want you to get your expectations too high. We're here to make money, after all, not to cater to your convenience. Don't like it? Buy a car.
The New York City Transit Authority. Going out of our way to make your trips miserable.
That's OK. The Mets are out of town anyway, Flushing their season down the toilet.
I actually approve of the practice of shutting down service, rather than pay twice as much to have disruption three times as long by keeping service open.
Come out to Queensboro Plaza tomorrow - I'll be therea few times during the day - and see what it is like when 7 service shuts down to Manhattan. We usually have abig problem, since there are not a lot of us that speak Korean (Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Mexican, Tagalog - you get the idea) and most of the riders on the 7 stare blankly when we talk to them in English, making for great fun trying to get them off the train.
Are they going to jack up N service to Whitehall for the occasion? Seems only fair.
>>>>Are they going to jack up N service to Whitehall for the occasion? Seems only fair. <<<
That's FUNNY! Got any more jokes?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I know. That's even worth a rim shot. N service has been jacked up for the last decade since the south side Money Pit tracks have been closed.
No, they didn't. However, for the next three weekends there will be more service (than usual) on the 7, while the B division works on a GO suspending service passing thru Roosevelt Ave - I don't know what they are doing; any B div people out there?
I can't imagine what the MTA employees have to put up having to make the same announcements once, twice, thrice, quatrice..., ONLY to those people who doesn't understand English... even with big loudspeakers! ... and one word at a time! Some people still asks them if it was the last stop. I fear to be involved in the complications of the situation.
What's the problem? The train isn't going out of service. Make the announcement once or twice and then close up and go back the other way. After one or two stops, the non-English speakers will get the idea.
I got news for you: people who speak English fluently and understand it fully don't listen to directions or announcements.
Case in point: On a downtown '4', someone asks me how to get to 14th and 8th. I tell them to get off at 14th and go upstairs, following signs to the 'L'. When we reach 14th, they run across the platform to the waiting '6'. I wave frantically, yelling to get off and go UPSTAIRS! They cheerfully wave back, and yell, "Thank you!"
Most days on the way home on the '7', the conductor will loudly announce at Queensboro Plaza that we're an express, Woodside next, at least three times. This is immediately followed by several people asking, "Is this an express?"
Yeah I agree, that can be soooooo irritating. I've seen those people. Riding a subway isn't as complicated if they open their ears.
Well, it's like my father says: "What's the sense of being stupid if you can't show it?".
He was a wise man !!!!
Once again a white man who can't get used to the diverity of the city.
The diversity is GREAT; the problem is that
a) many of the riders don't understand English
b) many of the TA employees don't speak all of the various languages (although quite a few do speak Spanish).
wayne
>>>>Once again a white man who can't get used to the diverity of the city. <<<
Yes, the evil white man is to blame. I wouldn't want to move to the suburbs like some of my friends did. Too boring. But I would like some of our immigrants to at least TRY to adopt the language of the country they have moved to.
When you walk down Union Street in Flushing, you are confronted with signs that are completely in Korean. Maybe there's a liitle English way down in the corner, in small type. This practice is spreading eastward to my part of Flushing.
It may not be intentional, but the message is: "non-Koreans not welcome here".
I'd prefer the signs in English, with perhaps a sign in the Korean equivalent of Aqui se habla español.
www.forgotten-ny.com
We get the same stuff here in Crab City. I have a friend who (courtesy of the US Air Force) could read and speak fluent Korean. He was great for translating those Korean only signs for the English only speaker acompanying him. Unfortunately, he is not in good sape these days (in a VA Funny Farm) and I miss his stories and comradship.
There are whole areas here that nary a sign is in English, or even Spanish. Hopefully they can at least read English, as the MTA programs the signs in English only.
Some of those areas are also rather high in shopkeeper shootings.
Where is "Crab City"?
It's a nickname for Baltimore. The domestic soft-shell crab-fishing industry is centered on Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay, and Baltimore is the largest city in the region.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maryland!! MMMMM.....Crab Cakes.....
-Hank :)
(Specifically, Baltimore nearest Chesapeake Bay)
two and more ...places and more in southern california koreatown and parts of alhambra rosemead san gabriel rosemead..
.........most of these areas asian & korean only exckuding all others.............. i know what I am talking about and if you
dont believe me visit out here and see this for yourself ...!!!
Thats all right the Koreans don t even like them selves
my goldstar flying erase
with vidieo and audio dubbing
was ruined by an expert korean tv vidieo repair specialist !!
I had to take this vcr over to glendale california ,,outside pasadena california..
i guess i have to give up on this fine piece of equipment as
everything was destroyed as the only function that needed to be repaired was the eject part ..2 pieces..
he ruined my hi-fi heads so only one speed playback the SP mode only !!!
Ever since then mr korean vcr man never gets any of my busness ever again !!
Please not I do not believe all Korerans and negative or down on themselves at all !!
I met some progressive types usually the younger generation but not restricted just to them !!
Many Koreans dont care for black men like me but not all !! I have met some that I feel were very much like some latinos I know that treat me ""like a brother""....
all I do say is that the communities they have here seems to be exclusive and private ...for themselves only & you get a ""bad vibe" that others are not welcome ...
I don't think places like Flushing fit the stereotype though. In Flushing you have alot of asian business (Chinese and Korean)and you see plenty of latinos, blacks, indians, whites all over Flushing.
Perhaps suburban Koreans may have this attitude, but the ones I see in NYC are very open minded, much different than you have described here.
.......yea southern california is spread out and isolation and excluseveness may tend to exceed ....
We've gone off the track, so to speak, with this topic before, so I'll not prolong the subject too much, but I must say that I agree with you. I read quite a number of languages and can speak a couple of them passably well, but I do not feel that I should have to speak a language other than English in order to communicate anywhere in this country. I don't have a problem with immigrants who choose to speak their native language at home, and to teach their children that language as well - it's an important part of their heritage. But the public language of this country is something known loosely as English, and when in public everyone should be expected to use it. No more government documents in any language other than English; for just one example, if you can't read the driver's manual in English, then don't drive until you can. If you'd rather not learn English, then go back wherever it is you came from. I didn't live in Spain without learning the language first; by the time I left I had learned the regional language (Catalan) as well. Certainly I was not as fluent as a native speaker in either tongue, but I spoke both languages well enough to converse freely with people who knew no English.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with almost everything you said. A country in which its citizens cannot communicate with each other is in danger of disintegration. I would point out, however, that some people move on such short notice that they don't have time to let the dough rise, much less learn a new language beforehand. We shouldn't be too critical of those who have only been here a few months and are trying to learn the new language. As for those who are young enough to learn the basics of a new language, have been here for over five years, and still can't understand second grade level English, I think they need more encouragement.
You're absolutely correct, and I should have qualified my statements to include the essence of what you said. It is only with those who don't choose to make the effort - and there are many of them, unfortunately - that I have a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My aunt who lives in LA for the last 30 years (a former rider of the # 4 in the Bronx) said the same thing happened in LA with the rise in immigrants. The signage got so bad that the City Council had to pass a law mandating the name and address had to be in English, with anything additional optional. It had to be done so that FIRE and POLICE would know where to respond in case of an emergency..
Kevin, remember you no longer live in eastern Flushing but rather eastern Flu-Shing.
[We shouldn't be too critical of those who have only been here a few months and are trying to learn the new language]
Couple of months should be enough to learn basic language. At least at the level to understand the train announcements.
Arti
I've been here 48 years and still can't understand some of the announcements.
[I've been here 48 years and still can't understand some of the announcements. ]
That's the quality of PA system issue. It's usually not malfunctioning in all the cars.
Arti
Jeez, on the old R-16s, I always though the PA announcements were in a foreign language.
R-16 PA had amplifiers that utilized vacuum tubes. They did not stand up to the constant vibratiion and environment like the current stuff does.
Speaking of which, are there any blueprints available used in the conversion to COMCO for the overhaul cars and if so, what differnces are there aside from the different H wire voltages? I suspect in the long term, cars like 6398 will need to be converted when the repair shops and tube supplies dwindle down. They do sound nice with the COMCO speakers and they have MUZAK capabilities. The tubes burn out on extended play music.
Since R-16s were never overhauled, there are no blueprints for a comco conversion. I do have a schematic for Comco as installed on R-46s etc.
I don't think you're going to see vacuum tubes become obsolete, as tube-powered amplifiers are still being manufactured. We have an electronic supply store in Denver, Fistell's, which has been around for years in the same location. They still carry tubes, and until a few years ago had car radio vibrators. Some fellow who is into American Flyer bought out their entire stock. A. C. Gilbert used a car radio vibrator as a frequency generator for their diesel horn circuit.
I guess that would make sense, since the transitor itself was only three years old at the time the R-16s went into service. Still, when I think of fuzzy, garbled and inaudible PA announcements, I will always think of the R-16 (specifically on the EE in the 1970s, but it could be anywhere on the system)
I agree with you 100%. Because the official language in this country is English, you should see English everywhere. Those signs only in a foreign language only seems to welcome those who understands it, ... not necessarily to a particular group? I once saw a WHITE MAN reading a JAPANESE NOVEL on a Manhattan N train. Pretty impressive!
Something that is bothering me is that people can take the Driver's License exams in a foreign language. Also, the exams for Naturalization are in very basic English and it's possible people can pass it and forget about whatever English they know.
Since this board is on transit-related topics, I'll stop here also. Lets hope the signs in the subways remain in English.
The INS English test may seem basic to you, but I've seen people fail it. I've also seen it administered to immigrants from the UK and other English speaking countries. Your tax dollars at work! (They spoke better English than the INS officer.)
One of the problems is that English was never made the official language of this country. In fact, there is none (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Up until the last qyarter of the 20th century, this seemed irrelevant. However, immigrant groups have been empowered by laws that, in some ways, give them more rights than the citizens of this country. For today's exercise, lets all practice bending over backwards. Ready - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -- one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two
You're right, and you're wrong.
Point 1: I think you're right. As far as I know, the Federal government has never adopted an "official" language. Maybe one or more of the states or localities has done so, but I wouldn't know. Of course, most organs of government operate predominantly or exclusively in English. For example, most Information Officers in the NY District office of INS speak only English. If an alien doesn't speak English and wants to find out anything, he'ld better bring along someone who does.
Point 2: I think you're wrong. Off hand, I can't think of a single right that aliens have in the United States that is not also enjoyed by citizens. Do you have something partuclar in mind?
Several laws have been passed in various states - Arizona is one, IIRC, not sure about the others - declaring English as the official language. These laws have been struck down as unconstitutional.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right now down in South Texas near Laredo, there's a town where the city council and mayor have voted to conduct all business and post all legal notices and city ordinances in Spanish instead of English. It got a little play when it first happened a few months ago, and could become a factor in the presidential election, since it is Bush's home state, but right now, it seems like nobody wants to touch the problem because of the racial issues involved.
You're right, and you're wrong.
Point 1: I think you're right. As far as I know, the Federal government has never adopted an "official" language. Maybe one or more of the states or localities has done so, but I wouldn't know. Of course, most organs of government operate predominantly or exclusively in English. For example, most Information Officers in the NY District office of INS speak only English. If an alien doesn't speak English and wants to find out anything, he'ld better bring along someone who does.
Point 2: I think you're wrong. Off hand, I can't think of a single right that aliens have in the United States that is not also enjoyed by citizens. Do you have something particular in mind?
He may not, but I do. It's considered discrimination NOT to hire someone who can't speak english. It doesn't matter if he speaks Martian, and won't be able to understand his duties. If he's capable of doing the job, the the only reason you DON'T hire him is because he only speaks Martian, you're now likely to be sued for discriminating against immigrants.
-Hank
Right. I work in a very multi-cultural environment, where English is the native language of less than half of the professional employees. For many of them, including my boss and his boss, the accent or even their name is the only clue that English isn't their mother tongue, they have learned it so well. For others, it's obvious in other ways (grammar and spelling), but they certainly understand it well enough to do a professional job - better than a couple of members of the secretarial pool for whom English is their native language. And then there are a few - very few, fortunately - who can't communicate in English at all. I have one on my staff, a very energetic Korean fellow in his mid-'40s, well-educated at one of the universities in Seoul, who simply has not mastered enough of the English language to do his job without a translator. He performs system upgrades and general system administration, does it reasonably well, and is willing to come in at odd hours on a regular basis, but I have to have another Korean-speaking employee translate my directions when I want to give him an additional assignment or change his routine. He's a nice guy, but I'll be glad when his contract is up and I can politely decline to renew it. He tries, I'll grant him that, but in today's business environment trying just isn't enough. I can't afford to pay people who are anything less than 100% successful at what they do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[It's considered discrimination NOT to hire someone who can't speak english. It doesn't matter if he speaks Martian, and won't be able to
understand his duties. If he's capable of doing the job, the the only reason you DON'T hire him is because he only speaks Martian, you're now likely to be sued for discriminating against immigrants.]
I'm not so sure about that. Certain characteristics are considered "bona fide occupational qualifications" and do allow exceptions to usual nondiscrimination requirements. A classic example is a locker room attendant, where gender is a "BFOQ." I would say that the ability to communicate with other employees and understand instructions - in other words, the ability to speak and understand English - would be a BFOQ in most cases.
While I haven't read all of the civil rights laws, I thought I knew what grounds for decision making Congress had outlawed. I must say that it comes as a surprise to hear that alienage is one of them.
Does that include the various dilects of english? Some conductors I've listened to have a heavey "patwa" or creole accent . I found myself exchanging bewildered looks with other travelers. I guess they pass the english requirements but choose not to make the effort through the work day.
avid
Regardles of what the government states there is no problem with discriminating The only discrimination that is forbidden is against political connected persons not to be confused with races. The EEOC is a rubber stamping organisation
I think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean right (as in Bill of Rights) but what I was referring to is that immigrant groups have been empowered, in some circumstances, beyond that of sitizens.
I think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean right (as in Bill of Rights) but what I was referring to is that immigrant groups have been empowered, in some circumstances, beyond that of citizens.
FEI, when I got my driver's license in 1994, the written test was availible in _23_ languages. Among them:
English, Hebrew, Spanish, Italian, French, Russian, Greek, Yiddish, Cantonese, and Korean.
For a CDL license, there is actually a part of the law creating (49CFR?) it that says drivers of certain vehicles (Haz-Mat and buses come to immediate mind) MUST speak and read english. This caused a big flap with the hispanic representation when an immigrant truck driver was cited for NOT having that ability. Amid arguments about it, it was pointed out WHY it was required, butr still the politicians pushed for its repeal. I'm not sure what happened with it.
What really bugs me about the whole thing is when they put someone on TV, and they need a translator to say for them that they've been in the USA for 16 years, and "Can't believe this can happen!"
-Hank
Not having driven in NYC (being a sane man), I don't know this as fact, but it's my understanding that the parking regulations can be positively Byzantine -- based on side of street, day of the week, time of day, etc. -- and that parking signs are therefore wordy and potentially very confusing.
That said, how do people who cannot read English but who get a license to drive in New York deal with these encyclopedic parking signs? The concepts are too abstract to be conveyed with universal symbols, and I doubt a sign that's large in English alone would be translated into even one other language, not to mention several.
Or do they just park illegally and get lots of tickets?
You don't actually need much English to read a No Parking sign. Remember, the times are the most complicated part; and they aren't -- strictly speaking -- in English, anyway. A lot of people who don't speak English use the same Arabic numerals we do. Moreover, "a.m." and "p.m." are Latin, not English.
And a big red 'NO' is pretty obvious.
-Hank
Hank,
You are correct. I just renewed my Commercial Drivers License (CDL)
which has HAZMAT and Passenger Bus endorsements, and the test is only
available in English.
[Back on topic] When we did the Willy-B FieldTrip last year, it
was interesting to see the passenger information signs in so
many languages in Williamsburgh, including Yiddish!
I may be correct, and the test may be in english in Massachucetts (were I assume you're licensed), but in NY, you can get it in multiple languages. The test is NOT preprinted. You go up there, choose your language, they print you a test, and you're off.
CDL test is a booklet, which is availible in at least English, Spanish, Arabic, Hebrew, and Greek at the SI DMV.
-Hank
you ought to see how many different languages the department of motor vehicles tests are given in in california !!
more than i could count and or mispell .... ( joke) ....and none of these in american...
I remember when I was very yound going to my great granmother's apt in a neighborhood in which all of the "For Rent" signs on the bldgs were in Yiddish. I dare say that today you will find a lot of street-visible signage exclusively in Spanish in some parts of the City. The Koreans did not invent this obnoxious practice.
Quite true - but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My neighborhood Grand Union became a Korean supermarket several years ago, but they still carry enough domestic stuff that I'll go in there for milk or bread. The staff knows just enough English to get along, or least to announce the amount of money you owe. If I point out a discrepancy in price or an expiration date that has passed, I get blank looks.
What I love is when announcements come over the P.A. in Korean. For all I know, they could be saying, "For anyone who can understand this, everything is half price."
I remember when I was very young going to my great granmother's apt in a neighborhood in which all of the "For Rent" signs on the bldgs were in Yiddish. I dare say that today you will find a lot of street-visible signage exclusively in Spanish in some parts of the City. The Koreans did not invent this obnoxious practice.
[When you walk down Union Street in Flushing, you are confronted with signs that are completely in Korean. Maybe there's a liitle English way down in the corner, in small type. This practice is spreading eastward to my part of Flushing.
It may not be intentional, but the message is: "non-Koreans not welcome here".]
What these business owners probably don't realize is that they're holding back their chances of growth. Appealing solely to a single ethnic community is inherently self-limiting, especially as members of the community become more Americanized and move off to the suburbs. In running a Korean-only (or any other language-only) business, the owners are more or less restricting their clientele to first-generation immigrants, who by and large aren't particularly affluent.
When someone asks me directions in Spanish, I'm able to say, "No Habla Espanol". A common occurrence on the '7' and the greater Flushing area is for someone who is obviously Asian asking me a question in THEIR language. I'll shrug, as if to say, "I don't speak Chinese, or Korean, or whatever it is you're speaking." They repeat their question in their language, LOUDLY.
Well, that's what you get in New York. I am able to speak a little bit of español when the need requires it, but I mostly speak inglés. I once heard a conductor on the 7 line, after saying that the train would return to Main Street from Queensboro Plaza in English, say the same message in Spanish. I was standing there, waiting for him to say it in another language, but all I heard was English and Spanish.
BTW, the correct way to say "I don't speak Spanish" in Spanish is "(Yo) no hablo español." I put the "Yo" in parentheses because it's optional. The verb, conjugated from the infinitive "hablar" to the first person singular "hablo". "Habla" is third person singular, which means "(He/She/It) doesn't speak Spanish."
BTW, the correct way to say "I don't speak Spanish" in Spanish is "(Yo) no hablo español." I put the "Yo" in parentheses because it's optional. The verb, conjugated from the infinitive "hablar" to the first person singular "hablo". "Habla" is third person singular, which means "(He/She/It) doesn't speak Spanish." I don't think people like to refer to themselves as it.
Hey, it sure as heck conveys the notion that you don't speak the language :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David, I love the diversity of NYC. It's one of the things that keep it vibrant. What's different is that in the past, the immigrant group of the time (and most of us were at one time) did not have signs, public forms and even Driver's manuals in our native languages. We were forced to learn the majority language. This did not deminish our own cultures but it did permit us to function successfully and compete. The present trend is for the tail to wag the dog. Learning English is no longer mandatory to survive. However survival is not flourishing. Personally, I occassionally hit the Flushing area for lunch or whatever. However, if the merchant or restauranteur does not have some sinage in english, I assume he's not interested in doing business with me and I simply move on. But perhaps you can at least ponder a question that I can't explain. Thousands come here from where-ever each day. They are fleeing their native land which we must assume was a less desirable place to be. Yet they come here and they:
First: Do not try to assimillate.
Secont: Try to make 'here' just like there.
,WHY?
In some eyes this is not a place of refuge, but a place of wealth to be mined and exploited then left. That may be the original plan for some, but their next generation may not share the veiws of the parants.
The parants then blame this, our home , for corrupting their children.
It would make for an intresting study. To see the stresses of culture clases within an emigrey family.
avid
Like a lot of other things, corruption is in the eye of the beholder. What Train Dude describes is just a particular instance of a more general phenomenon, people wanting two, mutually exclusive things and trying to have it both ways. You can't really blame them for trying. Although they found the old country intolerable for one reason or another, they miss it. It's sort of like the way some people view the relations between the sexes: can't live with them, can't live without them.
I refuse to rant off-subject here. If you would like to insult me use the email address that I so thoughtfully included.
david b . when you point this out all of the litle immature white male children come running out calling you
a bigot and cant see themselves in the mirror ... its easy to hide behind a computer screen like a coward !!
David, you know, I read Alex's post, the one you are responding to. Perhaps I'm missing something but from that post, how did you determine that Alex is white or even a man? I am not trying to be funny but Alex could be male or female and for the life of me I don't see anything there that would indicate his/her nationality, race or anything else.
It's pretty obvious you are making assumptions and painting with a very broad brush. IF Alex's statement was racist (and I am not ready to concede that it was) you make the assumption that Alex is White and from there label all or most white males as racists.
I once heard from a person of color that only whites could be considered racists because whites are the majority. On the face of it, that's crap on both points. Whites are no longer a majority in the NY vacinity. Secondly, we've seen too many instances here and in the media where non-whites have lead the tirades of racist rhetoric. Clearly, one who preaches & perpetuates such stereotypical generalities (such as the one you made) is by definition a racist. Yes David, the deamon you see is your own reflection. I suggest you and SalaamAllah start your own board. Perhaps you can call it "Anti-white male talk" and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Um, it's May, and the Mets are still above .500 ...
How did that happen?
Next, you'll be telling me the Red Sox are in first place.
I've seen it happen before at this point in the season. BTW, they dropped two of three to the fish this weekend. 'Nuff said.
P. S. I hear security at Shea is going to be really tight when the Braves come to town at the end of June.
Of course it is ... because you know how unruly Mets fans can get when their team loses :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The added security is because of you-know-who.
Speaking of (off his) Rocker, did you hear he balked in the winning run the other night when the ball fell out of his glove? Unbelievable. Of course, the fans were really letting him have it.
P. S. The Mets gave up their very first run in history on a similar play. Roger Craig dropped the ball while in his pitching motion, and the Cards' Bill White was waved in from third base.
It's still May. As I predicted (not really believing it) 10 days ago, the Red Sox are now in first place. (Miracle of miracles! We'll see how long that lasts.) Are the Mets still above .500?
The Mets are right at .500 as of today. We'll see how they do now that Henderson has been released. Al Leiter is pitching today against the Rockies.
05/05/2000
Kevin,
I can tell that this message bogus. You Mentioned Metropolitan TRANSIT Authority, of Boston and Los Angeles fame.
What is the reason for the service stoppage anyway?
Bill Newkirk
Trackwork
the year is 2003... although people continue to
debate whether global warming is something to worry
about, the average daily temperature in new york
city is 113... our intrepid avid reader continues
to commute every day from his villa in the rockaways to his wall street job fleecing the sheep...
one day, late in the afternoon, he is riding his
trusty A train back to the rockaways... the air
conditioning in the r-44 brings the temperature
down to a comfortable 95 degrees... the train is
travelling under fulton street in brooklyn, when a
massive power failure strikes the northeast... avid
and his fellow passengers are trapped and the temperature in the car starts to rise... people are sweating and dehydrating and beginning to faint...
then avid has a vision of 3 years ago, when every afternoon rush hour train came into the station with a nice cooling pool of water on each seat... if only he had some of that water to splash across his feverish brow ....
Can the side destination signs on the R62 and 68 light up like the R21 and 22 back in the day???????
BM34x
No, sadly, they cannot.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a post some time ago which said the sign boxes are equipped for illumination; i. e., they have fluorescent bulb sockets, but this feature isn't being used. It's just as well, IMHO. It's nice to have, but is a high maintenance item.
Last night comming home to Queens on an F leaving Lex we swithced to the Manhatten bound track and switched back before 23 Ely is there track work going on in the tunnel?
There was probably work going on in the tube on track D4. This particular occurrance is common.
I think they're replacing the 3rd rail insulators on D4 track.
some times when the insulators are replace, its in advance of welded rail, watch and see if thts develops.
avid
Why? (are insulators replaced in advance of welded rail?)
How does the normal speed of the Hudson-Bergen light rail compare to that of the NYC subway? What about accelaration? What about top-speed?
I read a FAQ about the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail at the following site. This should answer your questions.
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/hblrfaq.htm
"The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail cars are powered by 750 volts of electricity conducted through an overhead catenary system. The speed of the light rail car depends entirely on which segment of the line the car is traveling on. In sections where the light rail car is operating along city streets, the car must adhere to local speed limits and traffic signals. Along some off-street segments of the line along an exclusive right-of-way, light rail cars can travel up to 55 MPH. The stopping distance for light rail cars depends largely upon passenger loads and traveling speeds. Generally speaking, a light rail car traveling 20 MPH would come to a stop within approximately 160 feet from the initial braking point."
This discussion triggers a memory of a meeting between Essex Street residents and the Jersey City Police. Denizens of the two blocks claim that because their structures are historic, State Historic Preservation Office standards mandate a maximum speed of 8 MPH. When a police official cited the above 25 MPH figure, one brownstone-dweller challenged with: "Well, what are you going to do if they go over 25? Tell them to 'pull it over?' "
05/05/2000
[. Along some off-street segments of the line along an exclusive right-of-way, light rail cars can travel up to 55 MPH. ]
I don't think so. On the first day of inaugural service (April 15th) I peered through the operator window and noticed the speedometer (not digital) needle was exceeding 60 MPH so I guess 65MPH was the speed south of Liberty State Park to Bayonne.
Bill Newkirk
Once out of the street, the trains are cab-signal controlled; max allowed speed is 55. Past 55, an alarm goes off, and the brakes automatically apply. trains are limited to 15 until leaving Jersey Ave, 35 from Jersey Ave to Liberty State Park (15 around the curves past the turnpike), and 55 from Liberty State Park to Bayonne. I didn't watch the cab signals out the West Side Ave branch.
-Hank
They really seem to creep around those curves. I wish they could go a little faster on the curves and wire the traffic signals so that they would change automatically as the trains approached instead of having them change when the operator presses a button when the train is already at the crossing.
They ARE set up this way, but it's not yet fully functional. They no longer flag all the crossings, since the signals are working properly, just not in favor of the trains at all times as they should be by the end of this month. They still flag the crossing at the Liberty State Park station due to the 'S' curve under the railroad bridge. That's not going away anytime soon, and when it does, it will reappear for special events at the park.
Some real positive news is that there has yet to be an idiot collision.
-Hank
Thanks for the info. Glad to hear it. That ought to take a few minutes off the running time.
05/06/2000
Re: Liberty State Park crossing.
You just wait, eventually they will install crossing gates at that crossing since people like to run red lights. That's a real blind curve there and installing crossing gates will be the only way to prevent someone from broadsiding an LRV.
Bill Newkirk
05/06/2000
Hank,
Well, that's what I saw on the speedometer. Perhaps a show for the riders just for opening day?
Bill Newkirk
Perhaps. Any train I've been on, if the speed is exceeded, an alarm goes off (bee-dee-bee-dee) and the train starts to brake. I've seen it creep past 55, but it was always accompanied by the alarm. It's entirely possible that the speedo was defective. It's also possible that the speed control was disabled in the area (there's a button on the control panel for the speed control) and you're right (my money's on that), and it could be something that tricked your eye because you're looking at it at an angle, and not straight-on.
-Hank
The motorman running the Liberty Liner (nee Electroliner) on the P&W some years ago told me that they liked to "fix" the speedometer to read faster than actual speed when a railfan organization chartered the liner; they enjoyed the excitment displayed by the fans.
I used to watch the ammeter; it was redlined at 600 amps, but the train wouldn't move from Bryn Mawr inbound with less than 650. As soon as it got down to 600, the motorman would notch it up to 650-680 briefly.
Here we go again with my adventures from the apartment window. A rare appearance was made by a 10 car train of R-21s and R-22s, heading northbound to 239th St Yard for washing. The 10 Cars are normally assigned in groups of 2 to the Revenue Collectors. One pair of cars, Revenue Collector Cars OR and IR715 wondered away from home in Corona Yard and came onto the mainline. It's not too often I see a blazing train of yellow workhorses, but this is one of interest, let alone the fact it's a 10 car train of R-21s and R-22s. A rare one at best!
-Stef
I knew that the train was going for a wash because I heard a radio transmission from the T/O operating the consist. That's what I heard.
-Stef
This week , Tuesday and Wednensday saw a ROW layup on the Southbound Express track (F-3) I think, it had two sections really:
1) A2 unit monster that appeared to be a track tamper #16 550
Deisel #71, work car #330, deisel #78, about 10 flatcars , 4
empty and six loaded , 4 high of pre-fab track & ties,
mixed in were #339 workcar deisel #891, workcar #331 (R15)
deisel #898 and work car #358
They are involved in track replacement were the Rockaway branch leaves the raised embankment and climbs on the tight curve on the 'EL" to join the liberty ave "EL". This explains the "NO SERVICE" during the day notices for the Rockaway branch.
Some good Photo ops for the gainfully unemployed.
avid
Interesting stuff, avid. But who's gainfully unemployed if I may ask?
-Stef
BINGO! BINGO!
This evening the elusive cars were found laid up just north of the Howard Beach Station. Both express tracks were in use. There was about a half mile of MOW rolling stock. Heres a list of what I could identify.
Deisels DL-70,D-76, D-72, D-78, R/15 335 equiped with a knuckle coupler and 4 seperate cables connecting it to a deisel at each end. R/12-14 #331. 5 gondolas r/21-22 286 and 293 5 more gondoles. I could make out about 2, mabey 3 flat cars. MOW R21 347 and r/12-14 343. One MOW I could only see r38_ the last digit was out of veiw.
Further along were deisels 891 and 898 R/12-14 RO329 and deisel 56.
Now the best of all the missing r/21s , they were in two 8-car consists numbered CCR01 thru CCRO8 and DCR01 thru DCR08. These sets had no stormdoors and a small portion of the front lower wall on each side of the doorway were cut away.
These badboys were carring a load of welded rail, it could be veiwed as it ran thru from one car to the next. It looked to be stacked aboud four or five rails high and maybe five or six wide. I guessing here.It would behoove anyone close by with vidio or photo equipement to get there. 8 cars x 50ft = 400ft welded rail. Rare event in the making.
avid
Glad to hear my favorite Work Motor (R15 RD335) was out there having some fun in the sun. That's quite an array of equipment out there. Sounds like a big project underway. Was all this for the track repair at the Liberty avenue junction?
Wayne
I cant't imagin all of this for a tight curve. The curve is going in in short sections, about 39ft or less. The ties are pre banked and stored on the abandoned ROW above Liberty Ave. Other Equipement there too. Gangboxes, hardware, yellow catwalks etc.
The big collection leeds me to beleive the section south of Howard Beach, maybe the North bound track is get the welds. The So. bound side was welded about 5 years back. This branch has been receiving a lot of MOW for the last few years. I must confess I haven't been beyond Broad channel To access the trackwork down that-a-way. Just the "test tracks added to the Broad Channel- Howard Beach race way.
You're right. It sounds like heavy work is going down there. The Welded Rail Train is interesting. What were once passenger cars are now nothing more than carriers of continuous welded rail. It's not the most attractive piece of equipment, but it does serve a purpose.
-Stef
Hey Stef: Were are the pics? did you shoot any?
Just when I needed the camera, I didn't have one handy. Gosh darn it! I've been meaning to send the webmaster some photos someday when I get around to it....
-Stef
That is no way to run your TOWER there Stef!!!
Scanner, Spy Glass, Camera, PC--> Subtalk in that order.
Sorry! What can I do to make up for not entertaining the railfans?
-Stef
I made an error in reference to two of the Revenue Collectors. I referred to the two Revenue Collector Cars numbered 715, as OR715 and IR715, and is really 0R715 and 1R715. Sorry! I don't know how I could miss that. I thought at the front of the number on the plate was a complete letter designation.
-Stef
Any idea of the car(s) serial numbers?
What the actual car numbers are or their work service designations? For actual numbers head over to the Subway Roster Page, where you'll find info on the Rider and Revenue Collector Cars. The cars on this particular train today are all assigned to the IRT with the exception of 0R715 and 1R715. These are assigned to Corona.
Wait! Something strange is going on here. One of the collector cars assigned to Flushing has apparently been replaced. What gives? The car I recall seeing had a black roof, but the cars I saw had yellow roofs. Forget about paint jobs. These don't look like they've had it for a while.
You know, while on the subject, someone scribbled "GO METS" on the side of one of the Corona collectors, as was an insult hurled at Whitey Ford. I won't even mention the insult.
-Stef
Somewhere around 2:00pm, this same train was still roaming the system, because I saw it at Utica Ave (upper) on the Express track heading toward New Lots. Actually, I was downstairs and saw it on one of the monitors for the upper level. It surprised me, because you usually don't see 10 Collector cars running around in the middle of the afternoon.
It looks like several large consist of MOW stock are out cruising.
avid
They were getting washed up at 239th St, but how often does that happen? And why is a B Division Collector Roaming the IRT? Collectors 714, 716, 717, 718 are regulars, but Collector 715 is assigned to Corona. If all they wanted was a car wash, I figure that pair would have gotten washed at Corona. Some things I'll never understand.....
Hey Alex, what was going on with the 4 at Kingsbridge Rd? 11:11 Atlantic dropped dead over the switch heading north. Cars had a loss of power requiring the operator to run his train from the 6th Car in the R-62 Consist. Not an easy task operating from other than head end, I imagine.
-Stef
Nope, just ask they guys who were at Roosevelt on May 20, 1970.
The 6TH car? GOOD GRIEF! I would guess that being out of doors helped matters some in that case.
wayne
These things happen from time to time unfortunately. The 11:11 out of Atlantic Av was stranded on the road. Service was suspended down to Burnside Av. Even the train dispatcher from Woodlawn got involved, assisting in getting that train off the mainline. Personnel were aboard the train with the conductor flagging his motorman to Mosholu Pkwy, and then turned back south and crossed over to the yard approach before turning again and headed into the barn.
If you plan things carefully, nothing should go wrong, even if you're operating from other than the head end.
-Stef
Curious - was that a Redbird or a Kawasaki?
Wayne
NEVER MIND! I guess I didn't read the earlier post fully.
wayne
Presently, the LIRR has three branches in Brooklyn, two of which get little freight service (the Bay Ridge and Bushwick branches.)
But, the LIRR has also had other operations in Brooklyn. Manhattan Beach was one such branch, and I recall reading something about the LIRR operating along the prsent-day J tracks as far as Marcy Avenue at one point. There's also what is sometimes called the "Evergreen Branch" in Ridgewood; the ROW can still be made out in places for it.
Can someone provide details on those, as well as other LIRR Brooklyn expansions?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, back in steam-era days, the LIRR had ownership -- briefly -- over the Culver line (via the connection at Parkville junction). And of course the LIRR Atantlic Avenue Branch and the Brighton Beach had some sharing of equipment/trackage rights around the turn of the century as well.
FYI, a peculiarity of the Canarsie line is that a portion of it was co-owned by both BRT and the LIRR in the days of the Brooklyn Grade Elimination Project. The co-ownership had something to do with the Canarsie's proposed elevated ROW hanging over onto property of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch (as it does today between Atlantic & Sutter Aves.). This agreement was only in effect for the area of the shared embankment -- East New York Ave. to the north and Linden Boulevard to the south.
I believe Bob Anderson's website, www.lirrhistory.com can help you out in some of these areas.
Doug aka BMTman
I haven't been there in a few years, but I believe the ROW of the connection between the Bay Ridge branch and the South Brooklyn Railway is still there, but paved over. Also at the point where the switch is on McDonald Ave., you could still see part of the switch.
Kevin, check out this page and this page from my LIRR History website.
If I remember correctly, you were the one who first told me about that RR Crossing sign for the Evergreen branch on Hancock St.
By the way, today is the second anniversary of the establishment of the LIRR History website . (I had to get that plug in! :-)
Kevin: From Pg 16 of "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George (I hope my typing is OK-its alot to copy!! The abbreviations are mine)
Chestnut Street Agreement
To implement the joint service, two track connections were made between the LIRR and the Bklyn Elevated. The more important one was between the LIRR Atlantic Branch and the Bklyn Elevated Bway Line in the E.NY area near the Queens Co line. For a distance in this location, the 2 lines are a block apart. At a point east of Chestnut Street, a steel structure was built from the elevated railway's right of way to the LIRR Atlantic Branch tracks in a flying junction arrangement, due to the Atlantic Branch tracks being on the ground. The Chestnut Street Agreement made on 4/13/1898 detailed the arrangement and joint operation.
In 1898 the Bklyn Elevated Bway Line terminated westward at the Bway Ferry, in the Williamsburg Section of Bkyn. Bklyn elevated trains, using a mix of their own and LIRR equip., operated between this terminal and the LIRR's Rockaway Park eastern terminus. Service using steam powered trains started 7/17/1898. To more easily handle the elevated railroad rapid transit trains, a turning loop was built at the Rock Pk station in 1899. The Bklyn Union Elevated RR became part of the Bklyn Rapid Transit (BRT) in May 1899.
The LIRR electrified service to the Rockaway Peninsula started 7/26/05. Although the BRT Bway Line was electrified in 1901, they continued to use steam powered trains to the Rockaways until 1906, when the Chestnut Street Connection was electrified.
At that time the BRT started using electric power trains between the Bway Ferry and Rockaway Park. Although good service was provided, patronage was not heavy from Manhattan due to the need for the ferry. To mproe the situation the BRT extended its Bway Line across the recently completed Willamsburg Bridge to Delancy Street in Lower Manhattan. At the same time they strenghened the Bway elevated structure to permit use of heavier cars. This would also allow the LIRR to run their electric powered trains over the elevated structure. The LIRR service between Delancey St and the Rockaways started 5/30/08. It was extended further downtown to Chambers Street on 8/4/13. Both the LIRR and BRT electric-powered trains ran from these terminals to Rockaway Park. This was the only time in the history of the LIRR that it had a second rail terminus in Manhattan that could be reached without changing to a ferry or subway (the principal one of course, was and is, Pennsylvania Station).
Even wih the extensions, the joint-service usage by the public declined after the opening of service to Penn Station. By 1917, the U.S. was formally involved in WWI and ridership in the joint service was at an all time low. The 2 partners in the agreement chose this as a good time to terminate the service; it ended on Sept 3, 1917. The Chestnut St connection flying junction at the LIRR's Atlantic Branch was removd, but the one-block elevated strcture remained unti 1943, during WWII when it was removed as part of a scrap drive. The loop at the Rockaway Park Station had been razed in the early 1920's
End of quote.
That's pretty definitive.
I will be in NYC for 1 day on Wednesday. How much are the 1 Day Metro Cards?
Easily found by looking at the official MTA site, but the answer is $4.
Four dollars, but they are NOT sold at Token Booth, so step to MVM machine or buy it at a news stand. It's good for the rest of the day that you start using it (actually until 3 AM the next morning, but NOT 24 hours).
Mr t__:^)
I used to work Fridays until midnight, then Saturdays until midnight. I bought a one-day pass and got three rides out of it, feeling very smug until I realized I'd saved 13 cents.
Fun pass is $4 at all Metro Card Vending Machines not at the token booths, also at some stores and hotels vending machines are the best bet.
Do most stations have vending machines. I will most likely use the Q33 to Jackson Hts or the Shuttle Bus to Howard Beach on the Rockaway Lines. I will not know what airport I will come in on until I get to St Louis and change planes.
Howard Beach does NOT, unless I missed seeing them when I was there in March. You also can't buy one at a newsstand at JFK.
Perhaps subway-buff (one of our resident station agents) or one of the MetroCard fans can provide more information (and correct me if I'm wrong).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Visit metrocard.cjb.net. The list hasn't been updated in a while. Also be sure to check out the metrocard.cjb.net chat there tonight at 8!
About the list, Subway-buff is going tp provied me with a new list of MVM, which in be on the site as soon as i get it.
Thanks for the free pulg
metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
05/06/2000
Worse comes to worse, maybe someone can mail you a Funpass, if time permits.'
Bill Newkirk
I m leaving Wednesday so it will be too late, I will check some news stands at JFK or LGA
No it won't
Visit http://metrocard.citysearch.com to buy it online.
BUT: There is a $15 minimum.
Not to be obtuse, but doesn't your plane ticket say where your plane is going? My ticket always says whether it is JFK, LGA, or EWR, it never just says "New York".
Just asking....
My ticket says JFK, but I will have a 5 hour layover in St Louis, Then 1 11PM Overseas flight to Tel Aviv. I would rather spend the time in NYC rather then St Louis(I was there last month) so I will try to go standby on a 7.20AM flight to LaGuardia, and have more time in NYC to do some things.
The switch on the southbound Q or B , just south of 57th, and north of 47th/ Rockefeller , to the "F" tracks, the local tracks is being replaced. Does anyone know if it will be longer, to reduce side motion and allow for fast movement? Its difficuld to see in the darkened tunnel . Rght now the old switch has been removed. The ties are raised up on shims. Do the shims remain when the concret is poured? It seemed they left the shims when similar work was done on the diamond southboundat Jay st . Do the shims rot or what?
avid
For you railfans out there that have been paying attention, you'll notice that many friendly rivalries have sprang up over the past few months ( or is it years) over which train is better than which. Stuff like this sets the tone for some friendly ribbing between colleagues and is a far cry from some of the poison that has engulfed this site in recent weeks. Perhaps we can all police ourselves to see that bad feeling don;t erupt on this site again. Kill files help but only to a point. It is up to all of us to keep things civil and it can be done. After all how easy do really think it is to have to listen to #1Brighton Beach Bob's droning on and on about his half baked Brighton Beach train without wanting to pull out what remains of my hair? But I manage. This is the most enjoyable part of my use of my computer and I want to keep it that way.
Hey Fred - do they call it the See Beach (I know, they spelled it Sea Beach, but that's because someone in the BMT's office hadn't been off the boat long enough and couldn't tell the difference) because you can see the vastly superior Brighton Beach from there???? :-)
Sorry Fred, I just couldn't resist pulling your chain! I like 'em all, no real favorites myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with Slow Beach Fred. I really enjoy these barbs about the Brighton and Sea Beach, and his Brooklyn(Now LA Bums) It makes my day, and most of the guys on this web site know it is all in fun, even though Fred is real old, tries to live 50 years ago, and lives in California and is a Republican. Maybe it is all the Smog he breaths in in the San Gabriel Valley, which is the most air polluted part of So Calif. I can hear him wheezing right now, on his respirator
.......do you want the dodgers back ??... you can have them !!.....they cant even beat the braves at dodger stadium !!
They did once. And then we can move them to Hawaii because that's where Bob lives and he's a Yankee fan. We can then really torment him.
.........hawaii...? .....not a bad idea at all......
Hey I lived from 1942-57 with them in Brooklyn and 1959-1993 Seasons with them in LA. Send them to Hawaii, who cares. I still will root for the Yankees
send the dodgers to hawaii and give chavez ravine back to whom it was stolen from ...!!!
Chavez Ravine was own by the City and County of Los Angeles, The people who were moved from there were squatters, and did not belong there.
..........wrong many were home owners low income not important like beverly hills or west los angeles
but owners and families who lived there going back when los angeles was owned by mexico !!
there was land near what is called hollywood park where the los angeles lakers built this stadium
named the forum which later became the great western forum and all of that once vacant land could
have ben used to build the 1962 dodger stadium without taking away peoples homes just becuse they
would not do this to the rich all white section of los angeles eminent domain !!!
this was a shame after the dodgers which should have stayed in brooklyn where they came from !
At least the california - anahiem angels built thier stadium in anahiem in a vacant strip of land on the edge
of town without taking one homeowners house away !!!
so while we were losing the pacific electric railway by a very racist mayor yorty he condemms a whole
family community of chavez ravine just because they were latino and black
I am sorry but facts and history prove you wrong on this the people of chavez ravine were hard working
class homeowners who did not deserve the LYNCHING they got in 1961 by the racist city of los angeles !!
( by the way there are many who still know the victims of chavez ravine and many of them still suffer today )
and all just to build a sports stadium that could have been built in ingelwood with no pain ??
I am sorry sir but you got this one wrong !!
Yorty was not the Mayor, Norris Poulson was (A Republican)
ok when did mayor yorty s term begin ?? ......and yorty was a democrat .........?
1961
i first moved to los angeles county in late 1959 attended hobart elementary on olympic boulevard back then
moved to the pasadena altadena area in 1961... I was in the 4 th grade then ....
however I did see the last of the pico PCC trolley cars ....!!!
Good boy Bob. For that we'll give you honorary California citizenship. Now you can say you are a part, if only honorary, of the greatest state in the Union----BAR NONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Why Honorary. I was a citizen of the Granola State from 1958-1994
But you defected. That makes you a traitor. However, I'm giving you a pardon and forgiving your transgressions. After all, you can't help yourself. Brighton people just haven't got it together. It's not your fault. You're forgiven.
You've got the wrong mayor Salaam. It was Norris Poulson who gave the Dodgers the land for Dodger Stadium, not Mayor Yorty. Yorty was not elected until June, 1961, three years after the sale of land to the Dodgers. And the area was Hispanic, not African-American. To my knowledge no AA's lived in Chavez Ravine.
i did agree with you it was not yorty man what a bummer yorty was .... sure was silent when our rail
systems were being destroyed !!
The rail system was destroyed before Yorty, except the 5 Street Car Lines, and that was a state decision not city, since the Old MTA was a State Agency, and County Agency with only 2 City Members of the 15 on it. I remember sitting in a classroom in the Bungalows by LACC across Monroe St and Watching the Trolleys turn in the Wye.
Ohh, Bob, you're giving your age away. 1963 was a very bad year for streetcar fans, both L.A. (March 31, 1963) and Baltimore (November 3, 1963) quit the same year.
The late Ira Swett produced a wonderful book entitled "Die Day in L.A.", a text and photo tour of the last 5 lines. I have it in my library, and the cover (all in black, of course) features the "crying streetcar, 3002, tears falling on her dash.
Ira cosidered it a death, considering that streetcars have a personality and buses don't, it most certainly was.
I remember that day well, not only did LA loose their narrow gage trolleys but their 2 trolley bus lines also. Thank God for the Orange Empire Trolley Museum 100 90 miles from LA for the 2 PCCs theyhave up and running. Both Types.
OERM's L.A. PCC collection includes 3 cars - 3001, a P2 class (I forget the number) and P-3 3165. Each car is in a one of the 3 paint schemes the cars carried. I believe all 3 are operational.
One was undergoing a major overhaul when I was there in March. We rode on the P-3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yea...... thats the place I am trying to find the Oramge Empire Trolley Museum where is it..???.............
( near pasadena california ) maybe not so close ......... and do they have a website ???....... etc....
I did see some PBS special on some station some 40 miles away as I couldnt pick up the reception
very well to make out a clear address as to where it was !!....... oh well ......
Also i will visit Traveltown were some red car equipment also rests in mothball form ..........
The Orange Empire Railway Museum is located in Perris, not too far off I-215. I was there in March with my son-in-law, my grandson, and his other grandfather. Great place! They have recently revamped the web site; don't know what happened, but the old site was much nicer, in my opinion. All the key information is still there but it's not as visitor-friendly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
......a very nice website and a million thank yous !! man i cant wait to go there i live only 40 -50- miles away !!
also have you ever visited the traveltown website ??
I may have but don't recall ... in any event it's been a while ... what's the URL?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what i did was go to the search engine YAHOO and enter the orange '''''''''railway museum
( i forgot the exact words etc..) i think it was orange railway museum and then i bookmarked it !!
I think it is http://www.oerm.org/
I have not been to the Orange Empire Museum in about 9 years. Miss it. Did you know that Maui has a steam railway? A touris line from Lahaina to Napali on the West Shore, Thru Sugar and pineapple fields, and beautiful views of the Coast, There was also a article a few weeks back in the local paper of a real railroad prior to WWII that took people and kids from the hills to school in the only town then and back.
Would that be the Lahaina, Kaanapali & Pacific? I've heard of it, but don't kow much else about it but the name.
Thats it with Singing Conductors. Kind of fun
For OERM that's correct - I posted the same information earlier in the thread. The reference (and URL request) was for Traveltown, which is elsewhere in California.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Supposedly, they were considering keeping the P line and shutting the other four lines down. Had that happened, a lot of nonrevenue trackage would have had to be kept open for yard moves.
Do you know if the book is still in print? if so where can I get one
I don't think it is, as it was an Interurban special published in late 1964.
You might try E-bay, somebody may put a copy up for bid.
Please e mail me the answer, I will be off line starting Wed for 2 1/2 weeks.
And just to think of that is wierd for a railfan like me because 1963 was the happiest year of my life.
Why because the Bums swept the Yanks the only and only time in how many series.
Good God Bob when are you going to get it straight? I am not a Dodger fan and haven't been one in over 40 years. I'm a Mets fan. 1963 was a great year for me because I got super grades in college, my Pony League team won the championship, I met a very nice girl, and I finally learned to swim. Besides, I had my all time favorite job as a recreation leader. The Dodgers had nothing to do with it. Are you now clear on it? BTW, 1963 was the last year you saw #4 on the Sea Beach consistently. Starting in 1964 you saw more N's than 4's on that line.
And Bob lives in Hawaii, where EVERYTHING comes by boat, and the last vestage of electric transit vanished when Howdy Doody was still on television, and Bob was riding Standards on his beloved Brighton.
"And Bob lives in Hawaii, where EVERYTHING comes by boat, and the last vestage of electric transit vanished when Howdy Doody was still on television,"
If not completed yet, there is a mass transit system which will operate on the main island (Oahu?). One of the trade publications had a map of the route. Supposedly, it was being built by MK or their successor. Anyone have any info on the status of the project?
Has the first shovelful of dirt even been turned yet?
Don't you mean Shovelful of lava?
Pumice is a better word.:-)
No Volcanic Lava, If you take a rock from one of the Volcanos off the island with you, especially from a Native Hawaiian Holy Place, BAD LUCK will get to you. This is true, people who took souveneers of those things, had loads of bad luck, and the Honolulu Post Offices gets 2-3 rocks back a day. BEWARE The Kauhunas are watching
Funny you should mention this, Bob!!
I was just hearing this same thing from another acquaintance just this past Friday -- tourists will take "souvenirs" and when they get home, all kinds of strange things/bad luck occur, and they send back whatever they removed from Hawaii!!
I wonder -- does it happen if you decide to take home one of the wicked wahines??
GOOD LUCK, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh
[GOOD LUCK, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh]
And there's somebody right here on Subtalk (no names, however) who'd make a good donor ... scratch that, the local girls probably are better off as is.
Sheese, Peter.
The possible donor is a transplant candidate himself.
I fully expect a (name withheld) diatribe to this post, but since's he's in my killfile, I'll never read it.
Actually, a transplant involves switching one for another.
In that person's case, I think it would have to be called a brain INSTALLATION, as there wasn't one to begin with.
Good luck, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh. for example. Saturday around the corner from my house, a local women was stopped by the police. She had 5 kids in the car, all from infant to 4 years old. No seat belt for her, NO CAR SEATS for the kids, No Insurance, and could not understand why she was pulled over, and why the cop took her keys.
It has been put on hold, and you know what that means. I am on Maui where we don t even have any Public Bus Service. HRT or the Bus in Oahu has been voted one of the top 10 bus companies in the USA and Canada for 10 years now, but that belongs on Bus Talk.
Don't believe Bob. He takes his lessons from Bill Clinton. There is no smog out here. Today we have a light breeze, white puffy clouds and it is partly sunny. Very nice. No respirator, and I'm told I don't look 59. I am giving the SAT test today between threads, and when I'm through I'm going on a 6-mile run. That's a Sea Beach man for you. Brighton Beach guys are pale, and walk with a cane, so I'm told. I will say this about my buddy Bob----he has got me pegged about being nostalgic and furious at the TA for what they have done to the Sea Beach. But being an optimist, the Sea Beach will rise again to greatness one day. I hope.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I think you are starting to become annoying with your many complaints about why the Sea Beach is what it is today. You should calm down because at least you know the other Broadway Line R will never EVER become an express service. I don't see people from THAT line complain as much as you are about the Sea Beach line. Or as you put it as just a friendly rivalry between you and Brighton Bob. I think if there are some issues that only concerns both of you and doesn't affect much of the others on this board then you should consider emailing each other privately.
I'll avoid reading any messages from now on with the subject containing the words "sea beach vs. brighton" and anything related.
Shouldn't this topic be on the FAQ section also? This has been going on for awhile.
Hey guy, you're the only one complaining as far as I know. Others seem to enjoy the jousting. If you don;t like it fine, you can put it in killfile or just don't read it. Either way I could care less. And you annoyed me with your thread. So we're even.
Ditto,
And I've got my finger poised on the rim shot button...
Did anybody see Discovery Channel s History of Coney Island on Sunday Afternoon/evening. To show you how popular the Brighton Line was, they showed 9 pictures of the Brighton, 1 of the West End, and No SEA BEACH or Culver Line. To Bad Fred
There was one shot in which a Culver train could be seen on the lower level of the elevated structure.
Geez, now I'm craving some Nathan's hot dogs after watching that show!! (Guess I'll drive up to Las Vegas, there's one at the MGM Grand....)
Go to your nearest Ralphs or Vons They usually have some. I even get them in Safeway here in Hawaii
One of the local chains here in SoCal has them. But they just aren't the same as when you get them at a REAL Nathan's place!
I know, my late Uncle said the same thing when they opened a Nathans in Studio City and then in the early 80s in Encino. You did not get the taste of the cook sweating over the grill to give it the special flavor, or in Yiddish the Schvitz of the Schvartza. Sorry he is a older generation.
Hehehe, that's a good way of putting it!
Seems like all the "available in your grocer" products just don't taste anything like the REAL thing. Like, uh, White Castle burgers. You just gotta have that special kind of grease on the grill to float the onions and see-through patties in!!!
Just made myself a egg cream, Seltzer, The last of my Fox s Ubet and milk. Just right
Gee. First it was Nathan's hot dogs to make me hungry. Now you're making me drool for a real egg cream!!!
Eat Your Heart Out. I will be at Nathans In 48 hours, for desert Carvels
Lucky you!
We HAD Carvel in SoCal for awhile, years ago, but they all disappeared off the face of the earth. That had to be the BEST soft ice cream on the planet!!
Come on Carvel couldn't compare with Baskin-Robbins, and that's why it disappeared off the face of the earth. BR was invented in California and has become an icon out here. It also drove Tastee Freeze and Foster's Freeze for cover. Soft Ice cream cannot match regular ice cream for flavor. And as far as egg creams are concerned, you can't get them in New York anymore because there are no candy stores around anymore. They didsappeared off the face of the earth.
Guess I'll have to go over to Albertson's and get some Fox's U-Bet syrup and make my own.
Wanna drop in for an egg cream, Fred? I'm only a few miles away!!
I have a railfan buddy nearby? Great!!!! Where are you from? E-Mail me at fperitor@ausd.k12.ca.us I love egg creams but didn't know that Albertson's sold Fox's U-Bet syrup. I have to get with the program. I will be in New York for three days in August on a baseball tour, but I'm still waiting for someone on this site to tell me if they know of a candy store-soda fountain establishment that still sells egg creams. I missed not having one last summer.
Someone did tell you of one.
There was a lengthy article in the New York Times about a year or two ago about "dead professions." These included profiles of a sign painter, seltzer man, bra store and CANDY STORE. Reportedly, the last one in New York is in on Lexington Avenue, closest to the 86TH Street Station.
Syrup in the Coke, Fizz in the Customers
Pigs: I don't live in New York so I didn't see the article, but I did write down Lexington Avenue close to the 86th Street Station. Now if I only knew the name of the place and is it still open. I guarantee that if I can find it I will go in there and have not only an egg cream, but an ice cream soda, and God knows what else. We have a drugstore-soda fountain six miles from where I live in California. An ex-Brooklynite named Mike Miller is doing a great business there. Th only problem is it's not in New York. To me soda fountains and egg creams were New York---if you know what I mean.
I posted an excerpt.
And it was in the New York Times, so not being in New York is no excuse in that case.
You got me Pigs. But give me a better attitude or I'll sik Salaam on you. Anyway I know of one such place off the 86th Street station on Lexington on what I think is the #4 line. I hope to get my real New York egg cream this summer when I'm there August 17-18.
I was the one that told you about it!
That's old age for you. Hell I can remember what happened 50 years ago to the day but can't remember what happened yesterday. Anyway thanks and I won't sik Salaam on you.
Just go to any ice cream shop and order an ice cream soda without the ice cream. Viola!!! An egg cream!!!
Come on Sarge, are you trying to be funny? Somehow I don' believe you solved my problem, but thanks anyway. I was told of a candy store on Lexington Avenue near the 86th Street station. I will make my way in there this summer when I visit your fair city----that is if I can find it or if it hasn't gone out of business.
NAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!
It just ain't quite the same, Jeffrey! :-)
You MUST -- absolutely MUST -- start out with Fox's U-Bet syrup and use genuine seltzer. Club soda and Hershey's syrup just don't cut it!
Not only Fox's U-bet syrup and whole milk is needed, you must use the seltzer that comes in a SYPHON bottle, not the garbage that is sold in the super markets. For a while there was a guy here on LI that had a route with a van with racks on its roof selling the seltzer in syphon bottles. Since the bottles are made of thick glass they can put more gas in the water without the bottle exploding like the thin plastic ones sold in the markets.
Unfortunately the bottles aren't being made anymore. The seltzer man said that if I found any bottles at garage sales, etc., that I should get a receipt and he would pay me double for the bottle. When I used to get the seltzer I would look at the etched glass on the bottles and realize that there must have been 50 seltzer companies in the NY area, all are probably gone now...Wonder if any survived.
You got to be kidding!!! Carvel is a million times better 'n Baskin Robbins and they certainly haven't disappeared from the face of the earth. They are all over New York, the only place in the world that counts!!! There was a problem with them years ago when Tom Carvel was acting like a dictator with his franchisees but he's out of the picture now and alot of the Carvels that changed names then have since reopened as Carvels.
Sure Sarge, New York is the only place that counts......Tell that to George W or Big Al and see what they tell you. You are #2 or is it #3? I will give you this. New York CITY is still No.1 among metropolises, but don't even think that as a state yours compares with mine. California is NO. 1. BTW, is it true that if Rudy drops out, Governor Pataki might run for the Senate? I would even declare loyalty to New York if it would keep Hillary out of the Senate. I just can't stand her.
As a state? Did you ever drive the Adirondack's Northway (I-87) between Albany & Montreal? One of the most beautiful roads in the world. Even if there was no such place as NYC look what you have in the rest of thestate:Lake GeorgeThe AdirondacksThe CatskillsCooperstown (baseball Hall of Fame)Saratoga SpringsNiagara Falls (Quiet, Hey Paul)The Finger LakesWest PointThe HamptonsMontaukThe Sleepy Hollow Area (From Washington Irving Fame)Howe CavernsFort TicondarogaLake PlacidLake Champlaineetc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
I-87 was voted America's most scenic highway back in the 60s. And this was before it was fully completed! They didn't finish it in time for Expo 67. We had to wind our way along US 9 for a good 60 miles while heading to Montreal on May 27, 1967.
It is a beautiful stretch of highway. Overgrown a bit, but beautiful.
OK, you guys have I-87. We have Yosemite, the Central and South Coast, beautiful beaches, Disneyland, Magic Mountain, and the best climate anywhere in theworld. Aas it is we are both proud of our respective states. As a native New Yorker, I don't want to bring my native state down and so I will just wish you a great weekend and get back to talking about candy stores that no longer exist, and about my Sea Beach.
Glad to hear they're still around. I'd do anything for some Carvel right now.....
........the same outfit is called '''CRYSTAL"" down south in atlanta those white castle things are much too small
especially coming off of a construction site building freeways and marta stations !!!
Crystal is a copycat chain, just like White Tower and a couple of others. They not only copy the architecture, the burgers are equally bad too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
like rallys - checkers ...
An ex-girlfriend of mine -- who is African-American -- used to remark on the fact that alot of White Castle's were found in black neighborhoods.
She even coined a play-on-words phrase about them that I still use: 'The Black Dungeon'.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting. I hadn't ever noticed anything particular like that about their location, I just remember that my mother was fond of the place and I never could understand why. There's one about a mile from our NJ house and I will admit I've been there a couple of times simply because (1) I wanted to prove it was possible to eat there and survive and (2) they do have good mozzarella sticks. Plus my wife wanted a square coffee mug for her collection :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first experience with White Castle happened about ten years ago. Not knowing much about the place, I ordered *one* burger. When it came, my reaction was similar to what would happen if you looked in the oven on Thanksgiving Day and saw a rock cornish game hen instead of a turkey. Little did I know that the customary order is at least four at a time.
BTW - those nasty wormburger stories about White Castle are NOT TRUE. They contain (reasonably) pure cow, nothing else.
If you have some desire for worms, don't fret, just hop on over to the nearest sushi bar (no joke).
Quite true. I like sushi, but only the cooked variety. The raw stuff I'll pass on, thank you.
Years ago White Castle burgers had a relatively high percentage of beef liver in the mix, something no other burger chain has done, AFAIK. I'm told that it is no longer used as an ingredient now, however - hasn't been since the Jack in the Box incident about 15 years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I never noticed any correlation between White Castle and the ethnicity of neighborhoods.
The only two I definitely remember...one was on Fordham Road in the Bronx, a couple blocks east of the Third Avenue "el" station. I grew up four blocks west of there -- but don't remember it being (at least in the 50's) a neighborhood of color). The other one I definitely remember the location of was on Queens Blvd., under the #7 line, around 40th Street or thereabouts. I don't know what kind of neighborhood that was (late 1960's).
I seem to remember stopping at one (around 1981 or so) on US-9 in Linden, NJ. More like a truck stop area than a neighborhood.
FYI, White Castle has a significant presence in the Chicago metro area, where their burgers are colloquially referred to as "sliders." Does anybody know here they are based?
They used to be based in Columbus, Ohio. The frozen packages in grocery stores still come from there.
That's cause they "slide" right through you, no doubt.
For that reason, some people refer to White Castle burgers as "Belly Bombers".
Want to do a number on yourself? Eat a minimum of FOUR White Castle Double Cheeseburgers. Works like a charm, as good as Castor Oil, every time.
Wayne
Back in high school days, a friend of mine used to work at a White Castle's (it's still there, the one on Fort Hamilton Pkwy in Borough Park) and told me the secret ingredients for the unusual -- and enticing taste of their burgers: (1) the buns are heated on the onion-soaked grilles; (2) the fact that the meat is from Liverwurst; (3) the holes in the burgers allowing the flavors to circulate throughtout the burger; (4) addition of the pickle.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, see my earlier post on the same subject. Liverwurst is made from pork, but beef liver supposedly was used as an ingredient up until general food safety concerns arising from the Jack In The Box incident about fifteen years ago caused the company to change the recipe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last week I did something completely masochistic while working. I first went to the Tower Island Beef Paddy place on Atlantic & Boyland (Hopkinson) and had 2 spicy beef paddies. An hour later I went to White Castle (the one on Metropolitan & Buswick, by the "L" station) and had 8!!! And I actually survived!!!
P.S. I think the thing that makes White Castle so good is the grease getting into the bun. Its hard to tell where the meat ends and the bread begins.
Jeff, isn't that Tower Isle Beef Paddy place the "main plant" for that company? I understand that the company is based in Brooklyn and has been around since 1962.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes it is Doug. And they have a retail counter on Boylan Street. Since most pizzarias screw up beef paddies, they either leave it in the oven too long or actually deep fry 'em I figure the only place to get a perfectly cooked one is at the factory where they make 'em.
Tower Isle beef patties are GOOD! Every so often I grab a box at the supermarket to use as a side dish. I didn't know you could buy them right at the source. They're available in the frozen food section of just about every supermarket I've been to here on LI.
That sounds like a very dangerous and volatile combination - the jerk spices in the beef patties AND the "secret ingredients" in the W.C. burgers' mystery meat. Of course, some people are wholly unaffected by such stuff. White Castles don't bother ME but they DO bother some of my friends and acquaintances. What bothers me? Eggs.
wayne
Yes, those combinations of spicy dishes are almost as dangerous as thermo-nuclear weapons...:-)
Doug aka BMTman
A subway friend of mine introduced me to Beef patties wrapped in cocoa bread. Sad to say it was way too spicey for my aging digestive system. Now White Castles are something else. When i worked the midnight tour last year, once a week I'd send out to the one on Hillside Avenue for 2 or 3 sacks full with fries and onion rings. Everyone had 3 or 4 but any cleaner who didn't properly clean their train got 5 or 6. That taught them a lesson.
The one on Queens Blvd is still there, fairly recently remodeled....that particular area is quite heavily New Irish now...also about 100 other various ethnicities....White Castle is a very interesting company- all the stores are company owned, they only build new ones on a strictly cash basis by company builders, and they are VERY VERY conservative about where they locate [Ive been writing them for YEARS trying to get one up by our town...]. Another one that I know of is in JC, about 2 or 3 blocks north of Journal Square on Kennedy Blvd....Also one in Spring Valley/Nanuet......
There used to be a White Castle on Sunrise Highway, east of Valley Stream (was it in Lynbrook?). Does anyone know if that one is still there? Also, I am sort of surprised to find that White Castle has a couple of spanking new restaurants in Chicago's southern suburbs. It is an interesting Chicago phenomenon that White Castle is identified as a "South Side" presence, including the nearby southern suburbs.
Allow me to chime in on this topic. First I grew up in Sunnyside, Queens on 43rd St between Qns Blvd and 43rd Ave. This was just north of the White Castle that has been referred to. Its still there but has been expanded and a drive-in window put in. This effectively elimated the parking lot...Ethnicity of the neighborhood was predominately Irish and Jewish then, now new immigrant Irish and a lot of other nationalities.
There is another Chateau Blanc further east on Queens Blvd. near Woodhaven Blvd.and the Queens Center Mall. That is Elmhurst and a large Indian/Pakistani population. If you drive for the Green Bus Lines on their Q-60 you pass both of these.
The White Castle mentioned in Valley Stream or Lynbrook, is in Lynbrook on Sunrise Highway, corner of Broadway directly underneath the LIRR station. Lynbrook is a predominately blue collar community of whites.
There are several other Chateau's that are not in poor neighborhoods, namely Bayside (Bell and Northern), East Meadow ( Hempstead Tpke near NCMC),Melville (Rte 110 near Walt Whitman Mall), Commack (Jericho Tpke and Commack Rd) so I don't think that its a racial thing but there is a fairly new one on Atlantic Ave and Classon (Brooklyn) and Atlantic Ave east of Penn ave ( East NY section of Brooklyn)
There's a White Castle a few blocks from Journal Square station, in which was probably once a mostly Black neighborhood but is now 100% Indian. The only redeeming value is that it's open 24 hours, so that if you've knocked back a few beers and all of a sudden get a white castle jones, you're set. (Or, as the Smithereens sung, the White Castle Blues)...
If my memory serves me correctly, most -- if not all White Castle's ARE open 24 hours! That's why in poor or 'marginal' neighborhood's you will find ample bulletproof glass separating you from the workers!
BTW here's a bit of White Castle Trivia(unless it was posted already): where was the very first White Castle in Brooklyn (hint -- it's still there!)?
Doug aka BMTman
But they have holes in the glass! Not that useful if you ask me.
Duck when you see the bullets coming!
('I'll take a round of ammo with those fries, please!')
:-)
To match the holes in the hamburgers?
Aiming a bullet to fly directly through the holes is surely not easy. And if someone were to carefully line up a gun flush with the glass so the bullet would get through the hole, that WOULD give the clerk time enough to get out of the way. I guess. I'm sure someone thought this through when designing the partitions.
Could the first Chateau Blanc in the County of Kings been on Malbone St. a/k/a Empire Blvd ??? Of course Malbone St, this is Sub-Talk.
I don't know if that was the first but I was once talking to a big honcho from the White Castle Comp who said the one at Empire Blvd & Utica is the busiest branch in the country.
Hey, Jeff!
You inadvertantly answered the WC's Trivia Question correctly: the first White Castle's (at least in Brooklyn was the one at Empire Blvd. and Utica Ave.)
Doug aka BMTman
[There's a White Castle a few blocks from Journal Square station, in which was probably once a mostly Black neighborhood but is now 100% Indian. The only redeeming value is that it's open 24 hours, so that if you've knocked back a few beers and all of a sudden get a white castle jones, you're set. (Or, as the Smithereens sung, the White Castle Blues)...]
White Castle *Browns* is probably a more appropriate expression, given their alleged effects on the gastrointestinal system :-)
We had a couple in Baltimore (I don't think they're around anymore) but our local spin was the Little Tavern Shops. Same burgers, same distinctive flavour, and square buns to boot. They started out in the 1930's, cost was 5 cents. Their slogan was "Buy 'em By The Bag". The last one I remember was in our answer to Dizzyland, Harborplace. The price wasn't 5 cents anymore, and the buns were the standard round, but that distinctive flavour was still there. It was still there in 1994, but the last time I wandered downtown to Harborplace, it was gome. Somebody told me that there's still one or two around, but I've never located 'em.
[We had a couple in Baltimore (I don't think they're around anymore) but our local spin was the Little Tavern Shops. Same burgers, same distinctive flavour, and square buns to boot. They started out in
the 1930's, cost was 5 cents. Their slogan was "Buy 'em By The Bag".]
Interesting ... White Castle has a very similar slogan, "Get a Sackful," or something to that effect. One of them probably copied from the other.
In central Connecticut, particularly in the cities of Meriden and Middletown, the local favorite is *steamed* cheeseburgers. I know, they sound disgusting, but they're actually quite good. It's not as if there's a separate layer of cheese on top of the meat, as is usually the case; instead, the meat and cheese become blended together. A fairly strong cheddar cheese is recommended.
As far as I know, "steamers" aren't served at any franchised places, but rather at a number of independent diners and taverns. I think that their popularity may have faded somewhat in recent years, though I'm not certain.
Hmmm. Do you mean that the raw meat is cooked only by steaming it with cheese? Or that a cooked meat patty is steamed together with cheese to make the cheeseburger?
[re central Connecticut's steamed cheeseburgers]
[Hmmm. Do you mean that the raw meat is cooked only by steaming it with cheese? Or that a cooked meat patty is steamed together with cheese to make the cheeseburger?]
I've seen "steamers" made at a couple of places. I can't guarantee that every place follows the same method. But at the ones I saw, the cook places raw meat and a piece of cheddar cheese in a rectangular mold, and then puts the mold into a steam cabinet. Both the mold and the cabinet probably are purpose-built for steamers. Just a couple of minutes are enough to cook the meat and melt the cheese into it. The result is more like a flattened ball than a neat patty, as we're normally accustomed to seeing.
You know, I lived in Cheshire, CT (right next to Meriden) for just over four years and never heard of a steamed cheeseburger. Ignorance? Perhaps.
Now, grinders is another story....
"Alleged" effects?
Believe me, if I have a problem getting stuff through, a round of White Castle's products will make everything just slide right on out. Works better than anylaxative available over the counter!!
Thats because the heavy-duty fats in the meat and the grease can't broken down or absorbed by bacteria and enzymes in the colon, and they just go right on through.
wayne
There are no enzymes in the colon, they would serve no purpose if there were. And everything that makes it that far would slide right out anyway.
Kind of like olestra, isn't it?:-)
There was a staged interview done by a couple of radio hosts in Denver a few years back. They talked with someone who was supposedly taste testing fat-free potato chips made with olestra, and about every 30 seconds you could hear a toilet flushing. The interviewee kept muttering stuff like, "Oi, gevalt". I could tell by the timbre of his voice he was the show's producer. It was still pretty funny, though. He even made olestra jokes:
"They want me to try a candy bar made of this stuff."
"What's it called?"
"Depth Charge"
Tastes better than any laxative too!!!
[The White Castle mentioned in Valley Stream or Lynbrook, is in Lynbrook on Sunrise Highway, corner of Broadway directly underneath the LIRR station. Lynbrook is a predominately blue collar community of whites.]
I lived in Lynbrook, and although the town is predominantly blue-collar German/Irish/Italian, I can say with much authority that the White Castle's main clientele were blacks (probably from the next town to the west, Valley Stream, or otherwise city travelers stopping off from a drive down Sunrise Hwy).
Doug aka BMTman
Not to mention the utterly FILTHY White-Castle near the Sunrise Mall, along Sunrise Highway, west of Louden Street in East Massapequa. This one's burgers literally OOZE grease. Delicious!
You guys forgot the W.C. (no pun intended) in Bay-Ridge at 5 Avenue and ~ 96 Street, as you get off the Verrazano Bridge.
Wayne
The one on Sunrise Hway in Lynbrook under the LIRR is still there.
Most White Castles in NY seem to be in good railfanning locations. As a kid in the late 50's early 60's my parents used to take us to the West Hempstead one on Hempstead Tnpk just N/O the W Hemp station next to S Klein on the Square. There were waitresses that would take your order right at your car and deliver the tray right on your car window. It was right next to the railroad crossing for the old route from West Hempstead to Country Life Press. Although I think service was long since stopped I was a lil kid and always prayed for a train to go through. When I saw a train in the W Hemp station I hoped it would continue north. The tracks are long gone now, Kleins is now Shopper's Village, and the White Castle was rebuilt and actually moved a few doors east to the corner of Front Street.
Other White Castle notes: Alot of them in NYC are combinations White Castle/Church's Fried Chicken. The one under the West End at 86th Street is something else now.
All of the NYC ones were White Castle only, then they added Church's to most if not all of them.
That's what I meant.
A funny White Castle story. Its true and it points out that subliminal messages can actually give you a craving. Whenever I drove on the Cross Bronx Expressway I always got a craving for White Castle and never understood why. One day I noticed a sign on the Expway and realized the reason for the cravings. This is what the sign said:
White Plains Road
Castle Hill Ave
You mean this:
Yes!!!! And believe me its true about subliminal messages. I definitely thought about White Castles when I passed there. Coincidentally I think there is a W.C. on the service road around there.
Did you actually go out and snap that picture just for that posting??
That's actually some clever graphics that Pigs has done - I've seen similar stuff on a Pennsylvania Turnpike fan site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.kurumi.com/roads/signmaker/index.html
...........i knew you stole this from somewhere ......!!
Good grief, Salaam, can't you say anything to Pigs without flaming him? He didn't steal it, he used the program furnished on that site to generate it. I thought it was nicely done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
..................you know how ( some ) people ""borrow something permanetly "" then claim it as thier original .....!!!!
I wasnt picking on anybody however since he hides behind his ""killfile"" only you and I will see it !!
( what I last posted )........
WRONG
...........flushed out a quail.........i mean a pig ....!!!!!
Can anyone think of a White Castle in Midtown or downtown? Took the train into the city for the day - uneventful. Had lunch at a local semi-famous deli on Houston St although we would have liked some belly-bombs. Question - not train related. The place we ate at had cold cuts hanging in the window. How long can a Salaami hang without spoiling?
There's a Blimpie near where I work and they have a large hero sitting in the front window - looks very realistic - but it's been there for weeks - what gives? So I checked it out- It's plastic.
Very nice facsimile.
I take it the salamis were real. Dried, cured salami can last quite a while. That's how they preserved meats before modern refrigeration.
Wayne
.........A Spoiled BALONEY ( yours ) is already spoiled and stinking ...........!!!!!
I do not eat rotten spoiled and stinking BALONEY like you do fool ......!!!!
Coincidence!!!! Me and my 3 1/2 yr old son Arthur had dinner yesterday at Katz's!!!
Very coincidental. They have the Carnegie and Stage beat - hands down.
Oh yeah.....I took someone there once who had only been to the Carnegie before, and they almost went out of their skull after tasting the pastrami! Wait til they try Pastrami King!!! [To keep this sort of on topic, they all agreed it was worth the subway ride...OK Dave?!?]
Lou, where is Pastrami King now, since the one on Queens Blvd. in Kew Gardens shut down in 1998? I read where they were going to move to Manhattan, but I haven't found an address for them yet.
And yes, Pastrami King was worth the ride out on the E/F to Kew Gardens.
T'was one advantage of working in Jamaica Yard albiet the prices were a tad steep. On the other hand, you could get a full meal in the Con Edison Cafateria for $3 or $4 and have a view of jamaica Yard too.
KATZ' Kosher Delicatessen is the Genuine Article, no contest. Nothing even comes CLOSE as far as Corned Beef and Pastrami are concerned. It's worth the trip.
Wayne
Our President ate at Katz's last year. According to the sign at the table he sat at, 'chubby' had 2 hot dogs, a corned beef sandwich, fries and a diet soda. NO SALAMI..... Hilly did not eat at Katz's. According to her, pastrami without butter is uncivilized.
Pastrami WITH butter is unspeakable! The only things I put on pastrami are Gulden's Mustard AND/OR Mayo.
wayne
And I thought she wanted the Jewish vote.
She does as long as she doesn't have to get too close.
...and on white bread with a Seven-Up, no doubt.
Gee, did Mr. Bill ask for a definiton of "pastrami"?:-)
Or did he even remember having it before?
They told him it tasted like ferrett so he tried it.
They didn't bring Hilly along on that trip after the
time before that. It seems that Hilly went down to
the lower east side on a Sunday. When introduced to
the leader of the Hasedic community, ms. clinton
expressed suprise that NY City had so many Amish.
Talk about Ignorance with a capital I.... I can only imagine what that leader's reaction was.
Steve,
Please forgive me. That was just my attempt at humor - to illustrate how much Hilly actually knows about the mosaic of New York. To my knowledge, it never really happened although I'm quite sure that it would.
05/15/2000
Here we go again, talkin' about food again.
If we're young, we talk about sex,
If we're middle age, we talk about food,
If we're old, we talk about the weather.
Somewhere along the line, we should talk about trains.
Am I missing something here?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
We've had trains, but if you ever spend a lot of time with trains, ya gotta eat. I love streetcars, but every once in a while, the stomach starts to rumble. So, food is usually welcome.
Gino's (our local once-upon-a time burger chain in Baltimore) and the Little Tavern looked mighty inviting at 11 PM on an all-night straight. I had quite a few Gino Giants on the dash of a PCC car, working too many all-night straights.
Bill
There was a time in the gloriest past of the NYCT when the platforms were cluttered with vending mahines of every type. The passageways had chain and indepentant fast type food servers. This all contributed to garbage on the tracks and everywhere else. I'm sure we'll agree things are a lot better now .Near transit food establishments sort of makes it under the wire as a topic.
Here's a thought , Katz Deli dinning cars with just legal waitress and the weather channel on flat screen ,followed by the history channel's episode on "Subway Living" hosted by Martha Steward. (sic)
avid
Dan, that "Gino's" chain that you said was local to Baltimore -- they were even out here in California around 1980-1981!!! I was surprised,
actually, when I went back to the DC area in 1981 and found them there; I thought they were local to US out here!!!
Gino's is the place to go.
The chain got its name from Colts star Gino Marchetti. He got into the food business when he teamed up with Alan (The Horse) Amechie in Alan's drive-in business. Their company was A&G Foods, from (very obviously,) their initials. Amechie's was noted for its star burger, The GIANT. Gino started the fast-food side, named after him. The Giant migrated over to Gino's, and the rest was history. Eventually, A&G Foods was acquired by Marrott, who folded the chain into their Roy Rogers chain.
In 1963 it was solidly Gino's and the chain was 95% still drive-in. They were starting to enclose the outlets to provide an inside dining room at that time, but the ones on the 8 & 15 lines were still drive-in/walk up and open.
IIRC, Gino's had the Sirloiner, a hamburger with ground sirloin.
And, in at least parts of New Jersey Gino's had the KFC franchise.
I had relatives that used to live in the Baltimore area [Perry Hall] back in the late '60s-early '70s, and IIRC, Ginos was the ONLY place in the Balt. area that had KFC, as they were one of those companies that bought their franchise directly from the Colonel, before he sold out to John Brown. In another Balto oddity I remember that there were no Dairy Queens in Baltimore for some reason....
There are no Dairy Queens in New York either. I only know of one in Fort Lee.
Speaking of chains that are no longer existant, how many here remember Carrols? Wetsons? We never got Wetsons up here, but Carrols was our only fast food around here for a longgg time..we used to put it down terribly...but now...I sure could use a ClubBurger right now! What was Wetsons like? Was there any other chains that anyone misses??
I recall a Weston's used to be at Empire Blvd. and Flatbush Ave. back in the 70's! I almost forgot about that! Thanks for jarring my memory banks!
Doug aka BMTman
Wetsons on Flatbush , across from Kingsplaza, circia 1967,68,69
avid
Kings Plaza existed in neither of those years.
Wetsons was very much like the early McDonalds. No inside eating area, you purchased your burgers etc. from a window and ate in your car. There was one on Sunrise Highway somewhere east of Valley Stream that my family used to frequent every Summer, particularly after a day at Hewlitt beach which we did quite a bit back then. Is Hewlitt Beach Club still there?
05/18/2000
The closest thing you'll find to a Wetson's out here on Long Island is "All American" on Merrick and Hicksville Roads in Massapequa. In fact the building is a copy of a Wetson's drive in except the glazed bricks are blue and white. The food is first rate and cheaper than McDonald's, Burger King etc. Long lines at lunch and dinner time will explain that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Say, Bill, would you know if that old-time themed ice cream parlor is still there out in Massapequa? I think the name of the place is 'Frisches' or something like that. I belonged to a car club a few years back that used to meet there once a month (it was an interesting drive for me, considering I was coming from Midwood!).
P.S., I think the establishment was a block or two north of Sunrise Hwy (and the LIRR El structure).
Doug aka BMTman
why not hank ?? you get hungry shooting railfan vidieos in 5 hour shifts... and then you need something to eat !!!
Why do you always confuse Bill Newkirk with Hank Eisenstein?
Maybe I shouldn't even ask.
You shouldn't. It's self evident. Killfile Hurrah!!!!
There's a White Castle on the odd side of 5th, between 32nd and 33rd (near the Empire State Building). It has (predictably) a Church's Chicken built in.
Thank you. I was through the area yesterday and must have walked right past it.
During my trip into the city, I saw several of the 500 series locos. Seems that the've all (the one's I saw) had the horns relocated. They look lousy & sound indistinct. The clean looks of the loco are ruined by the placment. Seems that for $125,000 per for the modification, they could have done better.
The $125,000 figure was to do ALL the locomotives. LIRR said it cost about $2700 per unit to relocate the horns.
I thought the same thing but knowing what vendor modifications cost it sounded a bit low. The cost of engineering, drawings, material, labor, etc. amortizes over 34 locos....... However, I have heard the same figure (per loco) from 2 engineers. Neither the $2700 or the $125,000 figure sounds realistic to me.
The $2700 figure sounds VERY realistic to me.
As built, the units' horns had an air pipe up to the base of the horn, with an electric solenoid controlled valve.
Now they have the horns on the front of the unit with a mechanically controlled air valve. All they had to do was make a new mounting for the horn itself up front, run an air pipe from the middle of the units (where the horns were) up to the control stand, attach the air valve, and then run an air pipe up to the new horn mounting.
The air valves run around $750 bucks or more, depending on which model they chose to use. A couple grand for the rest of the job on each unit sounds reasonable.
These are actually the ONLY WC outlets that are franchised..a VERY bold step for a VERY conservative company....
...........ok young man ......how did you post that ?? did you create this or download that image ??........
Sounds just like the In-N-Out Burger chain in California (and lately Nevada and Arizona). Family owned, no franchises. Very selective locations. They have a VERY limited menu -- hamburgers, cheeseburgers, and double cheesburgers, fries, sodas and milkshakes. No need for a product development department!! They are a thriving operation.
Ditto for Nathan's Franks. While the store-bought Nathan's franks are not bad if grilled or broiled, they certainly aren't the same as at Coney Island - the munge that grows on the grills at CI can't be easily duplicated at home.
Wayne
05/10/2000
Add to this that the only way to eat a Nathan's hot dog and their famous fries is being there in Coney Island and looking dead at Stillwell Terminal!!
Bill Newkirk
Nevertheless, Nathan's still tastes better than other hot dogs. For some reason Kosher hot dogs taste much better to me. I'm not a Jew so I'm certainly no expert in the field, but I can swear that Kosher hot dogs taste a lot better than ordinary hot dogs. I don't know if it's psychological or what, but I know what my taste buds tell me. Do any of you get the same feeling? BTW, even though Coney Island is not part of the tour we are taking in our three day stay in New York in August, I will be heading out to Coney to ride the Cyclone and eat at Nathan's. Can a native New Yorker coming back to his ancestral city do anything else?
Oh, see the Mets at Shea, take an A train up CPW, etc.:-)
I should talk, right? I'm not even a NYC native.
Being a New Yorker is also a state of mind. If you are a subway buff and an "A" train fanatic, which you are, you are an honorary New Yorker at the very least.
Yeah, I agree, Fred! It's either Nathan's or Hebrew National for me when I want to have hot dogs.
The crap from Oscar Mayer and Farmer John is awful.....
........one of the better kosher dogs I tasted was at the penn station at newark below the PATH ....
next is the steamed hebrew national dogs and polish dogs at COSCO wharehouse served with a soda......price $ 1.5o....!!!
i agree with you on oscar myer and especially farmer john !! the awful SMELL"" as you drive by thier plant ...!!!
besides I cannot eat ""pig" and or ""pork"" being muslim ..........nathans are not kosher approved..!!!
......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
My favorite hot dogs is Katz' on Houston Street even though they are not Kosher. Get off the IND at the 2Av & Houston stop.
Who cares how many times they showed the Brighton on the Discovery Channel.. No one watches that has-been channel. So probably no one saw it. Too bad Bob. As a matter of fact I'm bidding on a book on the Sea Beach on E-Bay right now. They are a dozen or so who have bid. I haven't seen anybody bidding on a book on the Brighton because there haven't been any and probably won't be. Sorry Bob.
That's funny, Fred, I couldn't find it when I searched just now ... but I did find another item (so far with no bids) that might interest you - from the New York and Sea Beach RR days.
New York and Sea Beach Victorian Trade Card
Disclaimer: While I do buy and sell items on eBay this is not one of my listings; I have no knowledge of this item other than having spotted it while trying to find the item Fred referenced above.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon. What I'm bidding on is the the 1979 book Riding on the Sea Beach. It has over 80 pictures of my favorite train. Somebody in Texas, of all places, has put it on E-Bay for sale. Still, I see a lot of Sea Beach stuff, and no Brighton material whatsoever. What does that tell you? Now tell Bob.
Whats the name of the book?
........the best ice cream I have ever tasted was homemade..........hands down ,,,,,,,,,
And another Brighton boy comes crawling out of the woodwork. Come on you Sea Beach aficiandos, start crawling out, too. I can't keep fighting this battle alone, but if I have to you bet I will. Good thread Anon, now go out and pick some cotton in that Confederate state of yours. Or is it tobacco? Maybe both? Should I ask Al Gore?
Gore the bore? Sorry, we've got our hands full with Gov. Jim Hunt. At least this fall there will be a real election for governor of North Carolina, not some dog-and-pony show. The Republicans have the better candidate in Dick Vinroot (former mayor of Charlotte, but I won't hold that against him) but I have to admit that Mike Easley has a lot of good points too - not the least of which is that, as a District Attorney and now Attorney General, he hasn't been afraid to tackle corruption at the highest levels of his own party (as a DA he sent the late former Lt. Gov. Jimmy Greene to jail for bribery, income tax evasion, and arson, among other crimes). And then there's the Libertarian, Barbara Howe - a certified nut case if there ever was one (trust me, I know - she and my wife have been friends for nearly 20 years - thank G-d the craziness hasn't rubbed off).
And no, it's not cotton or tobacco, it's chickens, soybeans, cucumbers, and yams :-) (Mount Olive pickles are THE best!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All right! I'll come out of the closet and admit, tha I always liked the Sea Beach line more than the other Brooklyn lines, even if my favorite was REALLY the IRT in the Bronx wher I was raised.
Yeh, but you are in Calif., It seems only Southern Calif People like the Sea Beach Line, no wonder it is the area of Fruits and Nuts(Only kidding Steve)
No, it's not only fruits and nuts. Southern California is th GRANOLA BOWL of the world.
If it isn't a fruit or a nut, it's a flake!!! :-)
Especially in Disney County
Bet you didn't know Southern California had a suburb where it snows. Western Montana and South Central Montana became such in the late 80's and early 90's. So now I'm in North Dakota , no mountains, nobody want to move here. My days in Livingston MT confirm your thoughts.. ha ha, all in good fun though.
in fact i have been here when it did snow !! especially in the upper regions of altadena california...
the town above pasadena california.. ( the higher elvations )
the angeles crest highway # 2 rides north of la canada called the angeles crest and angeles forest highway ...
it is my favorite when its hot here its nice and cool up there where there are real mountains ...
the mount wilson transmitters are up there also And with a spectactular view when there is no rain fog or smog ...
the drive thru the breathtaking forrest is much better than any i have seen in georgia !!!
even when i was up there all i could seem to think about were the mount lowe railway that used to be there !!
Thanks for the education.Being honest I've never been to any part of California except Frisco. I enjoyed their gem of a light rail system and to a degree BART. Might mention since Frisco has Milan Peter Witts that when Ivisited Milan in Oct/98 the Witts were in regular service on several lines, not just as trippers. But as the subject is So.Cal now that LA has some rail transit (electric) not to mention San Diego I guess I owe the place a visit.
skip lost angeles ( los angeles ) and go straight to san diego and ride the red trolley down there ....
thats where a transit system is ....!!
Don t let anyone from San Francisco hear you call the city Frisco, that was a name of a old Railroad, They call in SAN FRANCISCO or the City. Some times in So Calif you could go Surfing in the Morning, Ski at lunch, and have dinner at a desert Casino, and the total round trip is less 350 miles for all 3.
I guess I'm doing something wrong here in Southern California!! I don't surf, I don't ski, and I'd be damned if I I'm gonna eat dinner at the casino before riding the roller coaster for half the night (like I usually do when we stay up at Buffalo Bill's at the state line....wifey is the one that keeps the handles on the slot machines warm.)
I m talking about the Indian Casinos out by Palm Springs, and the Poker Casinos in Gardena have good food
I belly board surf, and toboggan. That's close enough. And I love roller coasters. I rode the one in New York, Las Vegas over Easter vacation. Two 144 drops. Sensational. Oh yes, you have to ride in the front car. That's the only was to fly.
Yep, great coaster. Expensive though, it's now up to EIGHT BUCKS a ride. But, they did try to give it some NY theming, you pay your eight bucks and get a brass token that looks very much like a larger version of the subway tokens. And the waiting queues look like an elevated station, with the corrugated aluminum siding, yellow handrails, grafitti. Only thing it didn't have was the urine smell!!
My coaster preference is the one out at the state line at Buffalo Bill's. Twenty-one bucks gets you an all-you-can-ride pass, and believe me, after you ride it for four hours without getting out of the seat (when it's slow, they don't make you get out...), your bottom is sore the next morning. (Unfortunately, this coaster is one of the bumpier ones on planet earth.....though it is one of the fastest and tallest.)
Only in California is that possible. We're the greatest,,,but all of you guys out there knew that already. BTW, after a slight drizzle coming in from the north, it became warm and sunny. Typical California day. How was it in your neck of the woods? Not so good I'd bet.
It's May, it's always warm and sunny.
Does anyone know why the IRT, BMT, and IND electrified their lines with 660 v thrird rail as opposed to catenary? I've been to many foreign countries and almost all of their metros use overhead wire. Same thng goes for the LIRR. And since it was owned by the PRR and it was so close to the New Haven shoulden't they too have used catenary to be more versatile?
And when was freight catenary along the Bay Ridge Line removed?
When was the catenary over the PATH tracks removed? What was it used for? Some sections still remain up (like at the bridge after Journal Sq. You'll see it outside the railfan window).
/*Does anyone know why the IRT, BMT, and IND electrified their lines with 660 v thrird rail as opposed to catenary?*/
Tunnel clearnces.
And the small detail that single phase AC traction, nor 3kv DC traction was around back then.
/*Same thng goes for the LIRR.*/
ditto. They never converted it because by the time the AC MP-54s came around (1917), the LIRR had a lot of third rail down.
/*When was the catenary over the PATH tracks removed? What was it used for? */
It was pulled over various years. It was used for PRR commuter train out of Exchange place, I think.
Were any of the PRR pre-Hudson River tunnnel main line trains into exchange place electric also?
No. The electrification was done as part of the tunnel project, and was initially third rail on the PRR as well, Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station only. The overall Northeast Corridor electrification was done some twenty years later. Overhead wire was selected at that time for a number of reasons, including the voltage being used (11,500 volts AC, 25 cycles) and the numerous grade crossings still existing at that time (they weren't all eliminated until sometime in the '60s).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The third rail was used for two reasons: tunnel clearances and reliability. Overhead wire was thought to be insufficient for the current levels required to power subway trains. It was also considered impractical for elevated railways, and there is some justification for that - try maintaining overhead wire strung along a structure shoehorned between buildings and/or over a street.
The overhead wire remnants found on PATH come from the days when the H&M was a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania RR. The Pennsy ran commuter trains into Journal Square and also ran electric-powered freight on immediately adjacent tracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The H&M also used PRR PL signals in the above ground sections and the H&M tracks were controled from PRR interlocking towers (namely DOCK, HUDSON, HACK and WALDO). Between DOCK and WALDO the only differance between H&M and PRR tracks was that they had 3rd rail as well as overhead. The H&M was fully integrated into the PRR system and the tracks were used interchangeably. If you look at the segment between HUDSON and DOCK you'll see the remains of PL signals over the PATH tracks and crossovers that just don't quite connect anymore. That is the reason H&M was classified as a railroad.
Right. While I don't remember the H&M very well (we rarely had occasion to ride it) I was there on a couple of occasions back when PRR was still in charge and seeing the freights move through Journal Square. For that matter, I've got pictures of a Conrail train doing the same thing about 1989.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has anyone seen the white semaphore on the PATH tracks entering Journal Sq. from Newark? Is this also a remnant from the H&M, or does it serve a purpose?
Daniel
the "k" cars of the h&m also had prr cab signals
Actually,only 1200-1229 which were owned by PRR and designated MP-52 were equipped with PRR cab signals. When in Newark service,these cars had to be on the head end for that reason.
You're referring to the "Smashboards" that are found at either end of the "Hack" and "Dock" lift bridges. When down,they serve as added warning that the bridge is open.
I was thinking that too, but A) Smashboards are yellow and B) he said entering JSQ from NWK so the train would be heading east into JSQ and by that point they are way past the bridges.
PATH's smashboards are white,and they're the only things remotely resembling semaphores in the outdoor section. In my memory,the only other type of signals used in this area were Position Lights,the last of which were replaced in the early '80's.
There's smashboards on both tracks on the JSQ side; so you would actually see one on your track heading off the bridge into JSQ. I can't remember but I would think they are on the Newark side of the bridge as well.
I ride the PATH to Newark fairly often. It seems that there has been a recent resurgeance of freight through Journal Square.
There should actually be less freight going thru JSQ in the past few years since they re-aligned the Waldo connection. Trains coming from Kearny used to have to pull thru JSQ and reverse. A new bridge (opened in 1994 or 1995 or thereabouts) has eliminated that so trains can get from Kearny to Croxton without reversing thru JSQ.
Dave, does the track going west through the Bergen tunnel circle around through Journal Square? I think that the trains I have seen at Journal Square were coming from or going to the track that curves around to the north just before the PATH portal.
I have had the opportunity several times to see and hear the MTH 0 Gauge model of the D train. The set with the sound effects realy sounds good even though the real R-42's do not have door chimes. I took particular notice of the car #'s on the MTH train and they are 4714-4715, 4698-4699 and 4550-4551.
I have been wondering ever since I wrote the numbers down if the actual cars bearing these numbers are still rolling along or have some of them been lost through accident or otherwise over the years.
Do any of the roster experts on the site know?
Four of the six cars are in service in the Eastern Division, and they share duties between the "J", "L", "M" and "Z" lines.
#4714-4715 have been scrapped. Not sure exactly what happened to them.
The only R42 to be lost through accident or attrition are as follows:
#4664 (wrecked 6-5-1995)
#4680-4681 (accident in 1980s)
#4685 (accident at 135th st in 1980s, just went to scrap recently)
#4714-4715 (scrapped, no other information available)
#4726 (wrecked in 1980s - nose grafted onto #4918)
#4766-4767 (scrapped, no other information available)
*** #4684 and #4727 - odd couple
*** #4665 odd couple with R40M #4460.
wayne
Thank you, Wayne!
It's just a guess, but I suspect that MTH picked these numbers for their models about three years ago since the train came on the market almost two years ago. 4714 is the number on the MTH power car that actually pulls the other five cars. It's kind of ironic that the number that pulls the train, actually has already been scrapped.
Karl
As an aside to that: #4714 and #4715, as well as #4698-4699, when originally delivered, were assigned to the "D" line.
#4550-4551, when originally delivered, were assigned to the "RR" first (during their tests), and then the "N".
I wonder if they provided a decal/sticker kit to put on the models.
Wayne
I don't know if they did or didn't. I thought the two sets came with the D or the E stickers on them.
Since the J is the line I am most familiar with, it would be great for me to get the set and some J stickers, if they were available. I'm sure that I would have a tough time explaining why the train was signed J and the voice was announcing Stillwell Ave.:)
I don't know if they're O27 or HO gauge; but you can make a stick-on pretty easily:
Get some white self-stick labels from a stationery store and draw the "J" bullet with a brown pencil (Sanford Prismacolor #941 Light Umber is a good match) and the "J" itself with a white one (#938 White, same brand as above) and use a black felt-tip to fill in the background.
Then you can cut out the label to fit the sign on the car end; an Exacto knife would work well. Peel off the backing and press in place.
Wayne
That's a good idea! They are 0-27 sets.
I guess that I had better try to save up for a set of the cars first.
Maybe you could sign them as an M train prior to when they went from the Brighton Line to the West End.
This is an M train to Coney Island.
The next stop is Church Avenue.
Stand clear of the closing doors.
You know, that's not a bad idea! I always liked the M except where they competed for passengers with my beloved gate cars on the Myrtle Ave portion of the line. In my railfan days the train only went to Chambers St, so I was not that familiar with the rest of the route.
If you're going to sign it up as an "M" - don't forget, the "M" to use is the light blue one, not the brown one. And a full sign, not a little bullet. Sanford Prismacolor Deco Blue #1015 is a good match for the blue "M".
Wayne
I am going to print out these colors, I'll never remember those names.
Thanks!
Well, there used to be a QJ (with a red bullet) which ran to Coney Island on weekdays and to Broad St. all other times. It became the J in January of 1973 when it was permanently cut back to Broad St.
A red bullet? That was the "QB". The "QJ" was black like the "LL" or the "B" used to be. The "JJ" was orange.
wayne
I stand corrected. You're absolutely right. I must have been thinking of the RJ, which did have a red bullet.
Actually, the "RJ" only had a red bullet on the map, not on any of the cars. Only the R27/R30 had "RJ" signs, and they were a white letter on a black oil-cloth. The R16/R32/R38 multi-colored roll signs never had an "RJ", but did have red "QB"s as well as red "HH"s, and a black "QJ" AND an orange "JJ".
How I wish I still had that sign....looks like if I want one I'll have to shell out to Mr. Fiori...
Wayne
You know, we haven't heard a peep out of Mr. Rollsign in some time now. I wonder how he's doing. The R-1/9 destination curtain I picked up from him is nice; the Wash. Hts 207th St. sign is immaculate. So is the BMT standard route curtain (a bit dirty, but in good shape).
Just for the record, I don't know anyone who has an E train from MTH, but if my old eyes haven't failed me, the catalog picture would indicate that the E train is numbered 4904-4905 and 4824-4825. The picture of the two car add-on set shows the same numbers as the last two, so I don't know what numbers are really on the add-on cars.
Are the above four numbers good ones?
The add-0ns for the E trai are numbered 4600-01.
Thank You! MTH sure did not have those numbers on the add-on cars pictured in the catalog.
Since you did not say anything, I must have read the numbers for the original four cars correctly out of the catalog. They sure were tough to read!
I have both sets of 6 cars. The E train numbers are correct as you gave them.
Thanks for the input! Out of curiosty, do you have the sets with the complete sound system? From the aftermarket prices that I have heard, I could apparently buy a set without the station annouincements at a much lower price than one with announcements. I realize that there was a $100.00 price difference originally. One MTH buff has told me that the sound sets have appreciated since issue whereas those without have depreciated. Would you agree with that? Have you heard anything about a rumor that MTH is going to make sound chips available for other lines beside the D & E? Supposedly an A train is the first on the list to be offered, but the parts necessary are to be very expensive, and there is no mention of a way to change the trains visible letter designation. Wayne posted a way to change them which sounds as if it should work.
My D train set is horn only. My E train set is with the Proto-sound. The proto sound is nice but takes a little practice to coordinate it with the operation. I just sold one E-set on E-bay for approximately $180 which was slightly less than the list price. I bought the proto version on Ebay for around $230 which is significantly below list price. The R-21 set I have on order will also be with proto-sound and at somewhat less than the $300 list. All things being equal, if you can afford it, the proto is a nice feature but if that $100 difference means the difference between having a set or not, opt for the non-proto version. They're just too nice to pass up.
Thanks for all of the information! I have seen the D train with the sounds in action on several occasions. I have looked at the catalog pictures of all three sets, and think that I am going to wait for the R-21, which is coming out in the fall. They seem to be the same, or close to the R-17 which is the last NY subway car that I have ridden on.
The R-21s and R-17s were very similar in appearance. The most noticeable difference is the storm door window. As you may recall, the R-17s had a round, opening porthole window on their storm doors while the R-21s and R-22s had drop sash windows. One other minor difference was the absence of the side knockout glass panels on the R-21s. Finally, IIRC, the cab door on the R-21s was hinged on the opposite end when compared to the R-17s.
Mechanically and electrically, they were identical.
Whew, I had to go some to find any mechanical and/or electrical differences between the R-17 and R-21. The only ones I could find is a slight difference in the group switch boxes (both GE & Westinghouse versions) between the R-17 and R-21s. The only other difference listed was that the R-21s had overhead heat added to the under-seat heaters present on both models. Otherwise, you were absolutely correct.
This is not commercially motivated since my sets are not for sale. However, for anyone interested, there are 2 MTH Subway sets for sale today on EBAY. One is the E train version with horn only. The other is the much rarer D train version with Proto-sound. item #s are 325511117 & 325541799 OR you can simply type in "MTH Subway" in the search box. Be warned, I may be bidding on the latter.
Pretty expensive for a model but they sound like good ones.
I wonder if they're going to make an R40...
Wayne
If I had any influence witht he good people at MTH I'd try to persuade them that the next model be R-36 Worlds Fair cars in the original paint scheme. I like the IRT cars simply because the dimentions used by MTH is exactly scale for the IRT but a bit off for the B division.
As far as expense, it's all relative. To finance my new O gauge railroad, I sold my N scale equipment. If you can believe that one N scale boxcar (plastic) was sold by me for more than $85.00, I suppose $50 - $75 for an O scale car is reasonable.
By the way, based on the success that MTH is having in the Rapid Transit market, K-Line says it's also considering marketing NYCT O Scale equipment.
I'd have to scrap everything I have, buildings included, to start up an O27 railway. Everything I own is HO gauge.
Does MTH make any HO equipment?
Wayne
No, they're strictly a Lionel competitor. There IS some nice subway stuff in HO from MTS Imports though. Of course, it makes MTH look cheap.
BTW, did you get the email I sent you this morning regarding decorative tiles?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm still waiting for them to come out with S gauge subway equipment.:-)
You ought to compare notes with "bigedirtmanl" on this board, he has been an S gauge NYC transit car builder for many years. I've seen a lot of pictures of his work over the years, and they look pretty darn good to me!
Yes they're all active.
4824-4825 was on the "RR" when originally delivered.
4904-4905 was shared by the "KK" and "LL" when originally delivered.
4600-4601 (mentioned as an add-on) was shared by the "A", "AA" and "B" when originally delivered.
Wayne
Thanks again Wayne, you and I were apparently posting at the exact same time!
Well Karl, if you enjoyed that, wait until the R-21 set arrives on a doorstep near you. The proto sounds are provided by a retired SMEE Car, Branford's R-17. Hey, I might go out and purchase an MTH set.
Regards,
Stef
Stef, if you have any intention of buying an R-21 set, I sure hope you have your order in with a dealer. All of the trains made today seem to be limited edition, and if you don't order when they are announced, you may wound up having to pay secondary market prices.
Stef, I'm counting on you to let me know immediately when MTH comes up there to record the sounds of 1227! Now that would be a set that I would take out another mortgage to buy. I wonder if they would put door chimes on that sound chip! :)
You'll be the first to know.The guy with the recording equipment intends to use the sounds of R-9 #1689, for their GG1 model also due out at sometime.
-Stef
That ought to be something, an R-9 posing as a GG-1!
Is it true that the voice making the station announcements on the D Train belongs to one of your fellow members at BERA?
from studying some of the posts here over the last week or so, i have concluded that all of the people here have been replaced by exact replicas...
there used to be occasional spurts of humor, but now it's grim business...
just last night my seed pod came to life, and now i am just a shell of myself...
what time do we meet by the town square tomorrow morning to receive more pods for the rest of the town?
10:54am I shall be there, and I myself will sound the Main Siren.
wayne [mr R40M]
............be sure that the "" transverse cab car club members "" recieves thier pods first do not miss a single member !!
do not get too complacent salaam... we are just about finished with all the railfan window photographers... i have seen several of them riding on the subway staring at the ads for vocational schools...
ok ...........i understand.....................!!!!
please respond to you two posts on us-talk and greyhound-express I have several posts I would
like for you to answer !! ........... finally the transverse cab car club knows only one thing......""dummy up""
thanks for the info wayne...
what got me to suspect that the railfans have been replaced by replicas was riding with several groups of railfans on the hblr... rarely did anyone look out the front window... they were all busy planning distribution of more pods
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
You're Next!!!
The meeting place for distribution of pods has changed. It will now be at the unused center platform of the 59th st IND station. Time: 3:20am saturday May 13th. Pods will be distributed from flatcars being pulled by an r-127.......
If you miss that one, the next will be 4:10AM Monday May 15th, upper level, Wilson Avenue station on the "L". Look for a train of local work motors pulled by revenue cars #4444-4445
............
Anybody know when the Hoboken Transit Festival will be this year?
PLEASE don't say the weekend of May 20th. If it is, don't bother posting it (for my benefit), because I will be on a band trip that weekend to Mystic, Conn, and knowing that the festival is going on while I'm there will be torture.
In Philadelphia, my organization, the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passangers is debating over whether a 62 mile railroad should use dual mode locomotives, or electrify and use EMUs. As of now, all commuter services in Philadelphia are ac catenary electric. Some members say that an ac catenary/diesel locomotive can readily be made, others say it cannot. What do you think about this?
Some members say that it is inefficient with operating to have a locomotive pull less than 5 coaches, and say that a locomotive should not pull 2 or less, whereas others say that operating costs from dual mode and all electric will be within 2% of each other. What do you think?
The cost differential I'm not qualified to comment on, not having the figures at my disposal. But I can state that, with the advent of practical AC traction motors, it is possible to have a dual-mode locomotive utilizing overhead AC power. (It was possible before, actually, but would have been ridiculously costly; now that factor is gone.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would prefer to see the Harrisburg Line electrified to Reading and run with a combinations of electric locomotive hauled and EMU trains. However that's just the railfan in me talking and I know that such a plan would be cost prohibitive. Probably the way to go it with dual-modes with plans to eventually electrify the route (thus freeing up the DM's for another service extention). NJT runs 3 car trains on the Atlantic City line and they've had no problems with it. Many studies have shown that push/pull operations (probably > 3 cars) are much cheaper than MU's. After all most of the maintainence items are affiliated with moving the train. Why have more sets of motors/transformers/control equipment that can fail? I'd say use the Dual Modes and save the electrifacation for the extention to Quakertown. Then as time passes you can electrify to Pottstown and then all the way to Reading. At which point the DM's can be switched to Allentown-Philly service or maybe on to the Newton line.
I rode HBLR yesterday after work to the Martin Luther King Drive stop to plunk down some bucks on the $220 million lotto (that is now something like $300 million).
Anyhow, I think I'll be riding over there again -- or at least to visit Exchange Place -- to play in Tuesday night's game.
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry, Doug, but I'll be winning that $300 million on tues.
...no problem Rob....WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!!!!! Heh, heh, heh!
Ummm, sorry, Rob, but I already have the winning numbers for Tuesday's game :)
--Mark
Does anybody know why on these subway cars fleet when you want to walk between cars why are those doors on those trains are locked at all times. If you know write to me.
This has been discussed many times here. The end doors are kept locked between the cars because on a sharp curve or while going over switches, the cars move in such a way that you can be swept off if you are caught between cars. Simply put, it's for safety.
The longer 75-foot cars basically require a wider turning radius than the 60-foot cars on the BMT and IND lines, or the IRT's 51-footers. The larger radius means there's a wider gap between the cars on turns of up to 90 degrees, and a sharper `whip-around' from one direction to the other on S curves like the one between City Hall and Cortlandt Street on the N/R.
It will be intersting to see whether or not the doors between cars on the new 60-foot R-143s will be opened when they go into service a few years from now.
Hmm... are the storm doors on the R110B unlocked?
I would hope so. If my memory serves me, the "standards" had theirs locked.
avid
Hate to disappoint you, but they're LOCKED! Just like on the 75-footers. So far, the R110B and the R68(a) are the only groups of in-service cars I haven't walked between.
I'm not disappointed, I thought I was saying I thought they should be locked. I, m not so good sometimes for the grammar.
Yes the doors should be locked on any cars 67ft and longer!
Unless your selling batterys and Yo-Yos .
avid
I remember being on a train once whose rear storm door of the car I was riding in kept opening and closing, back and forth, back and forth. It was somewhere in the middle of the train, not the first or last car. I'm tempted to say it was the 14th St. tunnel, and am really tempted to say it was on a train of BMT standards, powered storm doors and all. After all, I distinctly remember the bull and pinion gears droning at about a half step above middle C while all this was going on.
per official AFC Bulletin. Goes on sale 5/15/2000 at 7am. Stations are gruoped to save space. Of course- it depends on the cards being actually delivered to these booths which is beyond our control!
Prince-N,R
Canal- J,M,N,R,Z,6, A,C,E
City Hall- N,R
Whjitehall- N,R
Fulton/Broadway-Nassau-2,3,4,5,6,A,C,E,J,M,Z
51/Lex- 6, E,F
Bway/Laffayette/Bleecker- 6,B,D,F,Q
S Ferry- 1.9
Cortlandt- 1,9
Christopher- 1,9
79-1,9
86-1,9
Wall- 4,5
Spring- 6
Astor- 6
23-6
28-6
77-6
96-6
Two more "flavors" go on sales at 0700 on/15/2000.
variety A (original) is "Tel Avciv 9 Cents"
Version B is "Ireland 9 cents" and Version C is "China 37 cents".
I am grouping stations for each card.
*****Version B- Ireland***
36-G,R
Steinway,46,65- G,R
Roosevelt/74- E,F,G,R,7
75av- F
21/Queensbridge- Q
36/Washington- N
Broadway-N
30/Grand- N
Astoria Blvd/Hoyt- N
Ditmars-N
33 to 52- 7
69-7
82-7
******Version C- China*****
53-R
9 av-B
Ft Hamilton- B
50,55-B
20 av-B
25 av-B
Elmhurst, Grand, Woodhaven- G,R
90-7
Jct Blvd-7
103-7
111-7
Willets Pt-7
Main Street-7
Yes, you all heard I am running for MTA President. If you elect me or write enough letters to the governor, I will guarantee the return of the railfan window, higher speeds on the express runs, that the redbirds will make it to 50 years old, nicer station, more trains per hour. Also I need a vice president, who will help me?
I will help!
After that I will overthrow you in a bloodless coup (or if that doesn't work, a bloody coup). Every train will be retrofitted with special chairs designed exclusively for the pig. Except for the Redbirds which will all be scrapped. The Second Avenue subway will be built just as I mentioned (with express tracks, surrounded by sound insulated walls). Pigs will ride free, and so will four humans travelling with any pig.
Then, when it is time for the PIGVOLUTION (which will not be televised), the subways will be closed in order to hinder human commerce and be used to transport weapigry for use by the hooved forces.
Although since the Yuppigs (Young Urban Pigs) have taken control of the Boarsheviks, don't expect the pigvolution to come anytime soon.
The OLORI Board and the POLORI board (I work with both) have endorsed heypaul as the candidate for Senate. The Willingdon Memorial Institute has failed to endorse a candidate.
I Support the PIGVOLUTION, humans have messed the world up so bad that I sing "All we are saying is give pigs a chance".
8->
..........now folks dont feel bad !! I nominated myself for worst subtalker - posted and lost hands down to
candidate mr pig who won that election. Since he now has more experence in subtalk politics and I dont etc.
I couldnt even win the ultimate contest on subtalk as worst subtalkrer - poster so I third the nomination
for the ""PIGVOLUTION" nomination for highest possibe office.........
be sure you vote for him at the next election for president of the MTA mr subway of new york city !!
by the way what party are you running with ??? democrat or republican or independent or reform party ??
Beasts of the IRT, beasts of the BMT
Beasts of every tunnel size
Hearken to my joyful tidings
Of a steel-wheeled future timeŠ
....... I resign form all subtalk politics lost the last election hands down just like the film
vidieo annimal farm ..........vote for pigs .....
There is no such position as "MTA President." The MTA has a Chair, and each operating agency (such as NYCT or LIRR) has a President. None of these positions are elected.
David
So, this morning I woke up and since it was so hot today, I thought I'd go railfaning. After many transfers and hours of riding I was going home. I live at Brighton Beach and was at West 4th Street. I wanted to take the long way home so I toke the B Train. Luck me, the R40 B Train pulled into the station and no one was at the window. The window was mine all the way to Coney Island. The train got up to 36 Street and the signal was set for 59 Street. We got to 59 Street and the C/R told the train that we were making all stops on the N Line to Coney Island. So, on the ride to Coney Island, I saw a North-Bound N Train on the Express Track stopped at a home signal near 8th Avenue with the T/O stepping on the trip arm. I was thinking to myself, why was a N Train on the express? I thought it was another GO. The train continued onto 28 Avenue. There, a R32 N Train was stopped between stations with workers all over the train. I thought it ran over someone. I then saw workers pulling a bike from under the wheels. I got off at Bay Parkway and there was the N Train stuck behind it. I asked some of the people on the train how long they've been there. They said for 30 minutes. I looked at my watch and it was 4:00. The AC on the train kept turning on and off (a sign that power to the 3rd Rail was turned off). So... in conclusion,
1) Train runs over bike
2) Trains behind jammed
3) Trains re-routed to the express tracks
4) Express track home signal malfunctions
5) Trains behind jammed
6) B Train that was supposed to run on express track, runs local
What a great day, I finally get a R40 on the Sea Beack express, it runs local. How was your day?
man !! that would have been a good vidieo to shoot !! wish i could have ben there to shoot this with you !!
Yep, you can only get a full perspective of whats going on with a railfan window.
There is no 28th Ave on the Sea Beach, Bay Pkwy is 22nd Ave, and there the Trains South between West 7th and 8th Sts. The West End Crosses 28th Ave by the Bay 50th St Station(Bay 48 St is 28th Ave)
Oy!!! I got mixed up. I accidently crossed 18th and 20th. It was 20 Avenue. It ran over the bike right before 20th Avenue.
Those overpasses are inviting places for vandals to dump things on the rails.
Back in 1977 I was on my way out to CI via "N" train. Our R46 train stopped somewhere around Fort Hamilton Parkway. Since I was up front, I got to see what was causing the problem. Someone had dropped a couple of toilet bowls onto the tracks. They broke, but the motorman stopped because there were large pieces in the way.
Wayne
Probably some jealous Brighton Beach ruffian. Maybe Bob can tell us who it was. BTW, someone on this website is getting tired of seeing BB vs SB arguments breaking our all over. How significant is this? I can't even remember the guy's name. That how.
05/08/2000
Sorry Fred, I don't think some ruffian fro the Brighton Line dropped that bicycle on the tracks. Besides, why would he waste his time traveling over to the Sea Beach when he could be flying up the Brighton on a true express!
"Bad day on the Sea Beach" ?? sounds that old film with Spencer Tracy and Ernest Borgnine, "Bad day at Black Rock". My favorite scene was when Ernest was harrassing Spencer by dumping ketchup (or catsup) on his chili. Since Hollywood has a knack for reviving old classic films with disasterous results, maybe they can revive "Bad Day at Black Rock".
A revival would show Sea Beach Fred arriving at Black Rock on a train of D-types pulled by FL-9's! A few scenes later, the town suspicious of Fred's arrival witness local bully Brighton Beach Bob who saunters into the local greasy spoon where Fred is about to down some hot chili. Brighton Beach Bob obviously agitated with Fred's silence dumps a load of catsup (ketchup) and speaks these immortal words:
"HEY STRANGER......I HEAR THIS IS HOW THEY SERVE CHILI IN ARCADIA!!"
Now if I can get ahold of Spike Lee, maybe we can get this cinematic tour de force off the ground.
Bill Newkirk
LOL
Of Course the station would be Kings Highway, and why am I the Bully? Fred only traveled the Slow Beach to see his grandma, So he was a part time user. Whenever I traveled on the subway. I ALWAYS used the Brighton, it was 7 short blocks from my house. I always had to have a window seat at Dubrows so i can see the trains.
05/08/2000
Bob,
Kings Highway was one brighton express stop from Newkirk Avenue, home of Newkirk Plaza and DeSica's Pizzeria. Where you could get a slice of pizza for 15 cents and a Coke for 10 cents (circa 1961). That's lunch for a quarter! Add 10 cents for an italian ice for dessert!
Bill Newkirk
And you guys talk about me living in the past. Tell me Bill, were you a Brooklynite who rooted for the Yankees when the Dodgers played there? No wonder they left for Los Angeles. Apack of traitors living in their midst and rooting for the US Steel Yankees. Disgusting!!!
Yeh, and you still have the Dodgers 20 miles from your place
05/09/2000
[And you guys talk about me living in the past. Tell me Bill, were you a Brooklynite who rooted for the Yankees when the Dodgers played there? No wonder they left for Los Angeles. Apack of traitors living in their midst and rooting for the US Steel Yankees. Disgusting!!! ]
No Fred, the Bronx to me was a foreign country back then! I am from a family of Brooklyn Dodger fans and although very young, I have no memories of when I was taken to Ebbets Field. After the Dodgers were kidnapped we like many other Brooklyniets were in mourning until the Mets made their appearance in 1962. No, we didn't root for the Giants either. To keep this on topic (trains), I remember at the Prospect Park station the original large porcelain free standing sign that said "Prospect Park" had a smaller sign above that was painted over that had the markings "Ebbets Field". Those signs are gone since the TA put up the familiar black and white ones there today.
Bill Newkirk
Well Bill I'm glad you weren't a Yankee fan. I hope you aren't one today either. I like the Mets even though I live in California. I never took to the Dodgers when they came out here. For some reason I didn't think of them as MY team anymore. Bob will jump out of his seat but my favorite station in the whole NYC subway system was always Prospect Park Station when I was a kid. It meant that we were coming out of the tunnel into God's own sunshine and a trip to see the Dodgers at Ebbets Field. Those are my most pleasant memories, and yes, unfortunately, it had to be on the Brighton.
05/10/2000
Well the Prospect Park station should be your favorite, since the concrete wall design is identical to the Sea Beach from Prospect to Church Ave.
Bill Newkirk
Yeh, but we had Beladonna Pizza on KH and E 19th plus Cone s Candy Dtore, Pizza 15 cents and coke/egg cream 10 cents also, plus the Brighton was elevated so you can stand outside turn west 2 1/2 blocks and watch the Standards and Triplex going by.
05/09/2000
[Yeh, but we had Beladonna Pizza on KH and E 19th plus Cone s Candy Dtore, Pizza 15 cents and coke/egg cream 10 cents also, plus the Brighton was elevated so you can stand outside turn west 2 1/2 blocks and watch the Standards and Triplex going by.]
So I was right Bob, you could get a lunch for a quarter! At the "Plaza" was Paul's Barber shop where as a young boy I got my hair cut. On a warm day, Paul (since deceased) would prop open the door and I could hear the sound of the bull and pinion gears of the Standards and D-types down below.I still get my hair cut there till this day even though I moved out the neighborhood in 1972! The thing is on a warm day with the door propped open I now hear the whining deceleration sound of the R-68's (sigh!).
Bill Newkirk
Now am I starting a Kings Hwy Newkirk Ave feud. Hope not
05/09/2000
[Now am I starting a Kings Hwy Newkirk Ave feud. Hope not]
No fued here Bob, just waxing nostalgic on the old Brighton Line!
Bill Newkirk
Sounds good to me Bill. But if I remember correctly, one armed Spencer Tracy grabs bully boy Ernest and twists his arm into a pretzel. Can I get to do that to my buddy Bob. After all, if I play Spencer's part I'm the good guy. And I promise not to be too rough on my friend. BTW, you can play Robert Ryan, the cowardly leader who gets his just desserts at the end. But I can put in a good word and make you one of the good guys if you want to be with the winners.
05/09/2000
Consider that in the script, Fred. We'll make you a star!
Bill Newkirk
OK!! Now if we can get ahold of Spike Lee, we're in business. I will even try to get a part of Salaam so this film is brought up to date as an equal opportunity employer, but Salaam will have to play a heavy since there are more parts for them than good guys. Do you think BX55 would be willing to play Anne Francis' part? One more thing. I have to be motoring that Triplex #4 Sea Beach train when I come roaring into town. Is it a deal?
Well, you could take a crash course on 6095 at the Transit Museum - signed up as 4, of course.
05/10/2000
It's a deal Fred! As long as we leave a bit part for Jeff Rosen as the town Sheriff! Now what part would heypaul play? I don't remember any scenes with a partial R-9 cab mockup inside.......Hmmmm !
Bill Newkirk
I can make you happy:
I drove under the Brighton line on the Belt Parkway and went on to ride the Sea Beach from 86th Street, although Manhattan-bound trains were running express which meant I had to go one stop to Coney Island to go non-stop to 59th. BTW, that was a slow and awful express run as far as express runs go.
Will they be doing that mid day on Thursday?
When I become President of the United States, I will change all that by Executive Order 44 ( my favorite number) which will make the Sea Beach completely express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. I can dream can't I. But since you rode my train, I will make you an honorary member of the Sea Beach fan club.
Probably some jealous Brighton Beach ruffian. Maybe Bob can tell us who it was. BTW, someone on this website is getting tired of seeing BB vs SB arguments breaking our all over. How significant is this? I can't even remember the guy's name. That's how.
Why waste a good bike on the Sea Beach anyway
If you stood on a trip stop, wouldn't it just pop back up?
If it remains in "red" yes.
However, I once was riding a Canarsie bound "L" train when we came upon a red signal -- south of New Lots as the train left the elevated and entered grade operation. We were there for quite a while. The T/O radioed Command. His response from C/D was that the signal was malfunctioning and that he should override the trip-feature. I was at the railfan window and had to move out of the way as the T/O went down to the roadbed. He pushed the trip arm down and used a "hook" (attached to the tie) to secure the trip arm in the "green" position.
We then proceeded to 105th Street.
Doug aka BMTman
It happened once when I was on a Q Train while it was entering DeKalb Avenue. The home signal in front of us didn't clear but the one after it cleared and the T/O knew something was wrong because the signals were timed. On that incident, not even the call-on worked.
All I can say is that I'm glad the Sea Beach wasn't the only line that happened to. I might have become suspicious. However, we can all agree that those perps who did that crap are idiots.
so....every trip arm has a hook nearby on a tie?
.....I would like to vote for downtown Detroit where a short non transit related etc....
""TOKEN TROLLEY RIDE "" operates on a line shorter than the useless DPM the dertoit people mover !!!
i mean its cute a short loop downtown in ONE section of downtown only and not even as long as some
transit museums ... One in Illinois got this one beat !!....
The other is the infamous downtown new orleans "" streetcar named desire "" cute and a nice piece of history etc..
but not much else !! .....like in los angeles i nominate the unidentified useless GREEN-LINE......
Hell !! it doesnt even go into the Los Angeles airport ( LAX) .......!!!
Why not have both a museum trolley ride and one who takes care of business as well ??
I guess that is too much to ask !! any other nominations in other cities and your answer is ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________!!!
please fill in the blank space thank you ..!
Charlotte, North Carolina - a mere one-quarter mile of track, which might eventually serve an antique shop or two if they can extend it another quarter mile.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what are they going to run on that ""token track""...?? and did they say what kind of trolley cars old or new ??
example ; in dowtown los angeles some kind of token pacific electric red car re-creation was proposed etc...
where is it now ??............hold your breath ...!!!
I stand corrected - there's only a few hundred feet of wire but they are now running 1.8 miles, using a towed diesel generator. I haven't been there in several years.
Here's some websites with more information:
Rail Transit in Charlotte
Charlotte Trolley
A Brief History of Streetcars in Charlotte
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
......thank you very nice sites !!!
I don't know why I'm bothering, but...
The New Orleans operation is meant only as a tourist line, and not as a mass transit line. If it were meant to be a mass transit line, they wouldn't be building Peter Witt cars.
-Hank
fine a tourist attraction is ok but a tram or light rail that serves the people is better !
What annoys me much more than the token trolleys which run on a short segment of track downtown as you said, is where the token trolley is a bus/truck with a custom body that tries to look like a trolley out of the end of the 19th century.
There's some outfit that owns a couple (I've counted two so far) of these junkers in Toronto, and runs them around giving tours. The tours focus on downtown Toronto, and the nearby areas - which is where the bulk of the streetcar network is located. Everywhere their tacky little tour bus-attempt-at-a-trolley goes can be gotten to on a real streetcar.
This really irritates me because they use the bus pretending to be a streetcar when they could use the genuine article if they were to make the necessary arrangements with the TTC. However, since they haven't, and prefer to use their own vehicles, the TTC's small fleet of historic PCCs spends most of its time sitting at one of the carhouses waiting to be used on charters or the occasional special event, while the PCCs could be put to very good use as tour vehicles on the TTC's extensive downtown streetcar network.
I've heard several accounts of people attending PCC charters opening the windows right up and leaning out as the PCC passes one of the tour "trolleys" and shouting at the people on it "GET A REAL STREETCAR!" I've never done this myself, although I will admit I've been very tempted, but I wish they would take that advice and dump their sorry excuse of a token trolley that doesn't even run on track in favour of a proper streetcar.
-Robert King
I must differ with your complaint about the 15-mile long LA Green line. Yes, there is a problem with it not going into LAX Airport itself. However, I'll bet that the people who live near it between Norwalk and El Segundo do not consider it useless. By your thinking the #7 train in NYC is "useless" because it does not go to LaGuardia. Or the Blue Line in Boston is "useless" because one has to take a five-minute bus ride to Logan (similar to the 5-minute bus ride from the Green Line into LAX). And the Harlem Branch of the Metro North Line does not stop at White Plains Airport (Oh no....) :-)
if you look at the los angeles gren line on this page...( sorry I do not have a scanner I would post it here )....
at what if you look at the green line photos in the la section.....( some of which i took etc..)
check out how the tracks stop on thier way to ( LAX ) the los angeles international airport `. There is a
break away section that was killed by the taxi and shuttle bus industries as they feared loss of money if
the gren line rail runs all the way into the airport as it was planned originally ...!
the green line uses ONE CAR only even during rush hours !! why is that still being done ?
these so called transit agencies do what they want to do . example : atlanta and washington dc...
they shure got it right there so why could the MTA in los angeles do the same ??
all rail systems should serve airports, even St Louis light rail serves the airport !!
I remember in the film DIE HARD 3 there alot of changes on the R30 subway cars in the scene why did they have to do different changes.
Some of the R30 cars in Die Hard 3: With A Vengeance were not REAL R30's. There were about a dozen REAL ones shipped out to Los Angeles and then another handful were made in the studios.
The "subway" in this movie was also in Los Angeles; it was a fake one constructed on a former Southern Pacific railroad yard just north of downtown Los Angeles. (It was also used to film "Money Train".) It is no longer there as the property has been sold and is undergoing commercial development.
The fake cars look almost like the real ones, except that they have left-side (i.e. "railfan") windows at the ends of the cars; they also have an additional passenger window at the left front/right rear corners.
While the movie depicts a lot of car "8408", recent posts have made me wonder if ANY of the car numbers shown in the movie were the real ones or if the plates were switched. I went to a Warner Bros. backlot in Glendale, just outside of Los Angeles, and there were four real R-27/30's there -- one of them was numbered "8401", but someone else reported that the REAL 8401 is still at Coney Island Yard being used for fire training purposes. The inside of the motorman's cab door on the car "8401" in Glendale, CA shows "8 97" (note: one digit is missing....looked to be either an 0, 2, or 3 as the rounded top is still there.)
#8408 & #8322 show in the movies called "End of Days" They show real inside the cars but outside the cars show #7818???? I hate the way they make the movies in diffirent cars & number while making in New York City.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
You want a bad subway movie see Stigmata:
Opening shot, some R-30's rounding a curve
Inside shot - some set that looks NOTHING LIKE any car in exsitance
Outside shot - The front of the MONEY TRAIN!!!
Another inside shot - same
Outside shot - same front shot of the MONEY TRAIN!!!
Inside - shot of train as eveyone gets thrown back of forth, even thoe the next shot shows them going straight
Outside shot - Shot of ANOTHER R-30 going STRAIGHT
Inside Shot - more throwning about
Outside Shot - The Money Train bleeding it's breaks
Another outside shot - from the 'Money Train' movie of an R-22 pulling into a station.
Closing shot - The actors get off of a train that looks nothing like any train in exsitance.
I dare anybody to find a worst subway sceen that that!
That movie's producers did what is called "let's use subway footage from some other movie, so we don't have to spend a fortune filming it ourselves" copout.
Doug aka BMTman
There was an R-22 in 'Money Train!!'(other than 51050)
...and it all takes place in PITTSBURGH...
Which one would you prefer to ride on and or operate ?? which one do you think is the better than the other
and or both ?? I thougnt San Francisos tfrolley bus system was prety good and they still had trolleys !!
Each has its benefits and its drawbacks. Light rail is higher capacity and uses less fuel per passenger mile when filled to nominal capacity than a trolley bus, and the rail cars last considerably longer with normal maintenance than a trolley bus does. The trolley bus can manuever around obstacles in mixed traffic to a limited extent, is more suited to lightly-travelled lines (it's sort of like a Birney car, as compared to a standard light rail vehicle), has less fixed equipment than a light rail vehicle (although the difference isn't as great as it seems, since there is twice as much overhead wire), and can be rerouted at a lower construction cost than light rail. As a simple personal preference I like trolleys/light rail better, but I'd rather see a trolley bus than a diesel bus.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Light rail is higher capacity and uses less fuel per passenger mile when filled to nominal capacity than a trolley bus]
Aren't light rail and trolley buses elctric? What fuel are you talking about?
Daniel
I assume electricity is made by little gnomes pedaling bicycles.
trolley buses ( no diesel or gas engine ) are all electric just like trolley rail however two pickup wires
are overhead on the trolley bus i believe trolley or so called light rail has one pick up wire overhead
and the tracks are the other electric conductor to the all electric system....
now do i have this right or wrong folks and if i am wrong no problem point this out to me !!!
That's usually correct. There are some trolley/light-rail systems - none that are currently operating in the US, AFAIK - that use the two-wire overhead also rather than using the rails as the return. Why I don't know, although it does eliminate the expense of rail bonding; possibly it's to allow joint service on tracks used by heavy freight in the off hours, where rail bonds would get broken more easily, or possibly it's to allow joint trolley/ETB operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Certain soil condiions can be handled better with a double overhead wire.
like parts of tne marina sections of san francisco .........
I thought that might be the case also, but I wasn't sure - high water table, high iron content, or what?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cincinnati I believe used double overhead as the city lies in a high water table area(flood plain). As to the fuel issue SF MUNI is in theory powered by hydro--but in the end all electricity generation has some 'pollution cost'--ask the salmon.
Some soils are very conductive to electricity. Has to do with the PH and other minerals in the earth and how it reacts to electricity.
In Cincinatti, I have been told that the requirement had more to do with the water utility and protecting their water pipes. They had the city pass an ordiance within the city that required two poles. Out in the fringes (out of the city) they operated on some track with single overhead.
Someone else may know more of the technical details.
No, the two-wire system used in Cincinatti was the result of a predecessor company that was sued by a telephone company due to interference caused by both companies using a ground return. The decision in favor of the telephone company, requiring the streetcar company to use a two-wire system and not a ground return was made by Ohio Supreme Justice William Howard Taft. The decision was later overturned by a Federal Court, but that time the double wire system was universal in Cincinatti.
As an aside, the wire "gauge" in Cincinatti was 18 inches, while standard trolley couch gauge was 24 inches. Cincinatti Street Railway used it's ready made TC wire by running TC's on charters in streetcar only territory. The only problem with these operations was that a supervisor had to follow the coach in order to guide the poles through streetcar wire frogs to guide the poles in the right direction.
Thanks for the info. I knew it had something to do with utilities but the the whole story.
An unmentioned comparison is performance. Part of the reason for the proliferation of trolleybuses in San Francisco is the great accelleration and hill climbing ability of the trolleybuses - far better than either diesel buses or streetcars.
You are right. Seattle had the same experience. Rubber tires will handle a much larger grade than steel wheels. The high torque of the electric motors is impressive when I ride the trolley buses in San Francisco. Trolley wire is also much cheaper than maintaining cable car infrastructure to operate over the hills.
I had a strange and somewhat frustrating experience on the subway this past Tuesday.
I was on the platform of the Brooklyn-bound Sixth Avenue Subway at the 34th Street station. I noticed an R train (of R-32 cars, mind you!) on the express track. For a moment, I thought I was on the wrong platform, but I looked at the signs above the platform and saw that I was right. I got on the train, and the conductor said that it was an R train to Brooklyn going express on the Sixth Avenue line. I stayed on the train. It went express, and it even skipped Broadway-Lafayette!
Here is the frustrating part. At Grand Street, the conductor said the next stop would be Dekalb Avenue, so I figured I would transfer to a D or Q train there. However, after going over the Manhattan Bridge, the train stopped for a while, and then the conductor said the next stop would be Pacific Street! It skipped Dekalb Avenue, so I couldn't get off there. It went to Pacific Street. There, I saw a regular R train on the local track that was about to leave, so rather than walking all the way across to Atlantic Avenue, I got on the other R train and took it to the F train at 9th Street. (Fortunately, the F train skipped a few stops. The othere R train seemed to have gone express, but I don't know how it went after that.)
Why did this R train go the wrong way, and why did the conductor say it would stop at Dekalb Avenue when it didn't?
Why was it on the 6th Ave line in the first place? There was probably a problem with a train already in the station at Dekalb, or somewhere between Dekalb and the jct where the bypass track splits off. Not all that unusual. Happens on the 6th Ave and CPW lines all the time. I was on a D train that entered 59st on the local track, then crossed over after the station.
-Hank
The R train was probably rerouted because of a delay or obstruction on the Broadway line. As for it skipping Dekalb when the conductor said it wouldn't, I'm guessing the conductor assumed it would. For the R train to run local south of Pacific, it would have to stop at Dekalb, as the bypass tracks don't connect to the 4th Ave. local tracks. Since the train skipped Bway Laffayette as well, I'm assuming the train was so late that it ran express all the way to 59th.
Usually, when there are problems on the Broadway N and R lines going into Manhattan from Queens, the R is rerouted from it's regular route over the F line to Broadway-Lafayette, then over the Manhattan Bridge on the D and B lines to DeKalb Avenue where it resumes normal service to Bay Ridge. I cannot explain why it did not stop at Bway-Laf, because technically, it should have. But I can explain to you why it skipped DeKalb Avenue. At Grand Street, the motorman must punch in the train's identification so that it will be routed properly. Because it was an R train, the motorman had to punch the button for the B line so that he would be routed over the 4th Avenue Line and not the Brighton Line, which is for the D. B trains do not stop at DeKalb Avenue; they go straight to Pacific Street. Because there is no switch to cross over to the local tracks from the express at Pacific (but there is from local to express, which is how N trains get to go express from Pacific to 59th), the R wound up going express from Pacific.
Whew! That was a mouthful!
He could have punched the N lineup or punched the D lineup and then punch the 4th Avenue Local lineup at DeKalb.
No N lineup at Grand St. There's a lineup for the Brighton and for the 4th Ave Line. That's the jct at the Brooklyn end of the Manhattan Bridge. That puch is currently set to route all Brighton trains to the outside platform, and all 4th Ave trains to the bypass track. Makes sense, because the B NEVER stops at Dekalb. At Dekalb, there's a punch on the outside platform for 4th Ave Local, 4th Ave Express, or Brighton; on the inner track, there's a punch for Brighton and a punch for 4th Ave Local and Express.
-Hank
Of course there is... the punches are BDQN but I doubt it's in that order but there is. Go to Grand Street's southbound platform and look at the punch box at the 10-car train marker. It's there.
A true railfan would not be complaining.
[ A true railfan would not be complaining. ]
I wasn't complaining about the rerouted R train. I was complaining that the conductor said it would stop at Dekalb Avenue when it wasn't going to, causing some inconvenience for me and probably others. Besides, if I weren't a railfan, I probably wouldn't have taken the R train in the first place!
By the way, does anyone have any specific knowledge of what happened with he train that I was referring to?
I'm a railfan and I detest the R. When I stayed at the Pan American Inn last summer, the Grand Avenue Station featured the R and G trains. I would take the G to Queens Plaza and then change to the N at the station and pay the extra $1.50 to avoid riding the R. Of course, I had a little extra scratch with me but you get the idea. The only time I rode the R was to finally reach 95th Street and see what it looked like. The worst station of the bunch, a turkish bath. But when I climbed to the street there was a Baskin-Robbins at the corner. That was a relief, but I still had to take the R back to 59th Street before I could rise another train back. That was pure hell.
The R can't be that bad! Yes it's local, may be a little slow because of the stops, but it has one of the best-looking car fleets around. The line is very demanding along the Queens Blvd portion (can't wait untii the 63 St connector opens!). You don't have to take the R if you don't want to, but if it's only a few local stops from Queens Blvd or Roosevelt to Grand it couldn't hurt.
You could have taken th B-64 to Coney Island on 86th St and catch the N there, or the B16 to 62nd
I took the R twice last year. One from 63rd Drive Rego Park, to Jackson Hts, to catch the F, and from Cortland Street(WTC) to DeKalb to catch the Brighton. If the N came along first I might have lowered myself to do that also
I heard every word of that Bob. I'm happy you didn't have to "lower" yourself and take the "N", although, unknown to you if would have injected you with a new burst of class.
95th Street gets a zero for liveability because there are R46s idling there all the time, throwing off gobs of heat. The station itself is small and there's no circulation.
One of the nice features at 95th Street is the Globe frieze and wall tablets, which are all in pretty good condition, especially in the ambiently-lit mezzanine. They're light brown in the center with dark blue, light blue and maroon trim, with yellow globes. Pretty sharp-looking.
Wayne
This isn't really true. The train could have simply punched the D/Q button and then punched the "R" button at Dekalb. I've witnessed this and I've ridden these re-routed R trains. They almost always stop at Dekalb. Some "B" trains stop at Dekalb anyway.
I was once on a B that stopped at DeKalb. It happens.
We are all talking about Punching this and Punching that, someone at Dekalb Tower could have rerouted (over ridden) whatever the T/O punched.
I will agree that there are times when the B does stop at DeKalb Avenue, but that is only when cold weather plans are in effect (during the winter months), there is a general order in effect, or if there's a delay in the D service to/from Manhattan. However, under normal circumstances, the B does not stop at DeKalb Avenue.
The R also could have stopped at DeKalb Avenue after punching the D/Q button and then alerted the tower at DeKalb as to its identification.
Good looking out, gentlemen!
Southbound B trains often stop at Dekalb in the early AM, before the Q's reach Brooklyn. I've witnessed these trains a lot....usually before 7 AM.
Reminds me of that misguided
Reminds me of that misguided M train that went up the wrong Broadway.
Are you sure this wasn't on Wednesday? That's when I saw a Bklyn-bound "R" roll throughB'way-Lafayette, but didn't stop...
[Are you sure this wasn't on Wednesday? That's when I saw a Bklyn-bound "R" roll through B'way-Lafayette, but didn't stop... ]
No. It was Tuesday, May 2, approximately 4:00 P.M. I remember because I was trying to get home to celebrate my parents' anniversary. I had just taken a bus with a broken fare collector, so they let us ride for free, which didn't really matter to me anyway since I would have transferred to the subway for free if I did have to pay on the bus. (I had to stop off at the Empire State Building.) But that's another story. Anyway, it was definitely Tuesday. But since you saw the same thing on Wednesday, I'm guessing this is happening more often than I thought. It's like what happened a few years ago when I would see an N Train on the Brighton Line every night at about 9:55 and every weeknight at about 10:20. Why do so many trains regularly go the wrong way? Don't trains have schedules?
An N train on the Brighton line? Uh-oh, don't tell Fred about that.:-)
[ An N train on the Brighton line? Uh-oh, don't tell Fred about that. :-) ]
Not just one. One or two a day regularly for over a year! Am I the only one who noticed it?
One or two A DAY?? Good heavens!:-)
Do they run express or local?
[ One or two A DAY?? Good heavens!:-) ]
Yes, and sometimes more! I know, it was crazy!
[ Do they run express or local? ]
I don't know. I only saw them from my apartment right by the West 8th Street Station. I didn't see where they went from there.
A s/b N rerouted via the brighton line can still reach its scheduled terminal and customers just riding north to reach their stops. N/B N customers for stops from 86th st- dekalb av well thats a different story all together!
From Dennis:
______________________________________________________________________
Dear Lyle:
I never saw this. I couldn't believe that the misguided R train you rode
on the express
track of the 6th Avenue line was an R-32. Was there a big problem on the
Broadway
line that forced this reroute?
However, in 1998, I rode an R-32 R train south from Rockefeller Center to
9th Street due
to an incident. It ran express on 6th Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge to
DeKalb
Avenue, then made regular R stops to 95th Street. The conductor I had,
Jose, is now
on the F train.
What a mess! I was aware of the G.O. and took an N train to Queensboro plaza to get the 7. There was severe crowding there like I never saw before.
The 7 was so packed and there was no more room, so I had to catch the N and take it back to 34th. I found a much better alternate, just to avoid the 7 completely. I took the F to 71st/Continental (which ran local between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt), I wasn't even going to try and catch the 7 up at Roosevelt, lots of people were going up there and I didn't want to be on a packed Redbird with lousy A/C on a hot day like today.
So I got the Q65A and got the Q20A to go back to Flushing. It's longer, but in general a much better way to avoid the G.O.
The buses weren't too crowded, as most people choose to opt for
the 7 train.
What exactly is the reason for this 7 train G.O.? Can't they do this late at night when there are less people using it? The 7 train is quite busy on Saturdays and there should be more options listed by the MTA. People with Pay Per ride Metrocards should get block transfers to use the buses as alternates. Fortunately I had a weekly unlimited Metrocard, otherwise I would've had to take the packed 7 train.
They were pouring concrete under the skeletonized track between Times Sq and Grand Central. Between the pour itself and time allowed for setting up of the concrete, this job takes up an entire weekend.
did they use a concrete pumper upstairs to deliver the concrete and or did they mix it downstairs etc.. ??
Just finished watching the video of "The Astronaut's Wife" with Johnny Depp and Charlize Theron. It wasn't a bad movie, though definitely weird in spots. Its basic plotline was drawn from "Rosemary's Baby," albeit with enough differences to avoid being called a rip-off or anything. Anyway, there were two reasonably lengthy subway scenes. The more important of the two took place at the City Hall station on the N/R, actually on the stairway leading up to the street. The station name is plainly visible near the end of the scene, as are the surrounding streetscape. One possible nitpick is that a metal panelling of some sort covered the railing around one side of the street entrance. The presence of this panelling was crucial to the scene, by preventing one character, who was on the street, from seeing another character, who was on the stairs. I'll have to mosey on by the station to see if there is such a panelling - most similar railings have just the open metal bars. The second scene takes place mainly on what looks like an R32. There are some railfan-window views of the train travelling through the tunnels at what is obviously a much faster speed than trains ever reach.
"Keeping the Faith" also had a few short subway sequences as well, one of which was definitely filmed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
--Mark
When was that movie made? In their day, the R-32s were speed demons. I once saw a D train of R-32s streak effortlessly past 81st St. It was just as fast as a train of R-10s, minus the thunder. Of course, there's always the possibility that the camera shots looking ahead into the tunnel were filmed at a lower speed, then played back normally. I suspect that's what they did in the original Pelham 1-2-3 as the runaway car races through Spring St. and Canal St.
[When was that movie (The Astronaut's Wife) made? In their day, the R-32s were speed demons. I once saw a D train of R-32s streak effortlessly past 81st St. It was just as fast as a train of R-10s, minus the thunder. Of course, there's always the possibility that the camera shots looking ahead into the tunnel were filmed at a lower speed, then played back normally. I suspect that's what they did in the original Pelham 1-2-3 as the runaway car races through Spring St. and Canal St.]
The movie came out about a year ago, so it probably was filmed within the past couple years or so. I don't know whether the railfan window views were filmed specifically for the movie or simply were stock footage.
Speeds were way beyond anything you'd actually see on the subway. That fits in with the nature of the scene - Charlize Theron's character is dazed and confused, having fled a hospital in fear of her life. Oddly enough, her character was *not* shown at the railfan window.
Why would the work motors R-127 and the R-134 have a front roll sign. All it would ever say would be 'out of service'
What's the point of these signs, and what do they say?
I think they also have signs for
"You're screwed"
and
"Wait some more"
They DO NOT have signs. What you see appears to be a rollsign but, Actuially is a stencil in the window.
That isn't a rollsign, it's right on the window. The reason its there is so that people know it's not a passenger train, and won't attempt to board while the crew picks up the garbage. If it was blank, people wouldn't know what it is.
I really hope that New Yorkers don't need the sign to tell them a train isn't for them but for some, serious mental help is required. While at Times Square on the Northbound express track, two passengers tried to enter my domain. Two yellow work motors without seats and a crane car in the middle. Maybe the signs are necessary.
Its funny how New Yorkers are always in a rush to go no where. Where I work at Mother Hale depot there will be a empty bus with no operator parked engine not running and some genius will run down the block yelling "wait wait!".
Sometimes I give up!
Hmm... no windows? Maybe this is the cure for scratchs on the window... damn!!! Look at all this crap!!!
Mispell... scratchs = scratches
Except for the fact that they are garbage train motors, they are just like R33 singles that look like R62's with one set of doors on each side and no windows. Like the R33 singles, they have no air conditioning.
Exactly... no windows... no scratches. Maybe on the doors if someone has alot of time.
Thinking about deciding either Transport Tycoon or Traffic Giant. Need opinions as to which is better. Thanks, in advance.
Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too. I have told this person to come to the chat on Wednesday to convince us that it is. Please come willing to fight for railfanning not being gay and to show this person they are wrong and we don't critizize their hobbies! Thanks!
I guess you've never seen to original definition of the word.
-Hank
I have. I was quoting the person who told me that it was "gay". Gay means happy which is how it was originally used up until very recently. The Wizard of Oz books use gay to mean happy.
To my children's (daughter 14, son 11) contemporaries, the adjective "gay" is mostly used to describe a person or thing that fits the speaker's own narrow definition of what is "awkward" or "geeky." This is pretty much the same as when I was junior-high-school age in the late sixties and early seventies, when kids who didn't fit someone else's idea of what was "cool" were unfairly labelled as "faggots."
So my point is that if your hobby, or lifestyle, or whatever you are into, doesn't break the law or interfere with anyone else's rights, but perhaps is not "cool" enough to suit someone else's tastes, that's their problem, not yours.
Then there were the phrases prohibited by the Hayes Commission movie code. The ban was so effective that most of the phrases like "in your hat" have passed out of the language.
It has been noted that if a word or expression has both a clean and a dirty meaning, the dirty meaning eventually will become the exclusive one. For instance, "feces" once meant any sort of waste or dregs, especially those found at the bottom of wine bottles, in addition to its current, familiar one. Over time, these other meanings gradually faded out of use.
When I moved to New York from RI in 1996, I shocked quite a few new female friends when I suggested we "hook up" - meaning meeting somewhere - not knowing what the phrase meant here. To this day, when my RI friends use the phrase suggestively, they say "hook up in the New York sense."
You do know don't you, that the meaning of the word "gay" has changed in the last forty years. In the old days, a "gay" person was one who was high spirited, carefree, reckless, irresponsible and lived life to the fullest (riding at the railfan window). To the day they died, my parents never accepted the fact that "gay" now refers to sexual orientation. Some words in the English language have really changed their meaning over the years, and others have just stopped being used at all.
well......maybe riding busses is a little.
WHOA! Wait a minute, being a bus or subway buff is not being gay! Yes, there is Gay bus and subway buffs.
I for one have nothing against Gay or Bi-Sexual people, I have many of friends that are. But because being a Bus or Subway buff does not signify you as being gay, Especially a BUS BUFF!
I have a love for buses and trains, and the comment you made was a little offensive to me as a bus buff!
To WMATA:
I have been called gay on several occasions becuase of the field I like. OH WELL, Shake it off and keep stepping high, at least your not doing drugs!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
I thought she dissed YOU! You better be there after all that because its my money on the line here.
Oh Honey, Pay It!
She didn't diss me, she thought she dissed and in actuality she humored me!
But I will stomp a serious Mud Hole in her tomorrow, believe that!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Please, don't argue. It distracts people from what we do when there's a full moon.
Personally, I haven't been gay and a railfan since the Triplexes were scrapped...
last I knew genitalia and use thereof were irrelevant to rail enthousiasm. If these persons of diminished capacity (evidenced by lack of rail interest) have some problem, I reccoment new friends.
The most knowlegeable rail preservationist I know of is openly gay, he is also a good friend. IMMATURE McCarthy types like to say certain individuals arent "True" Railfans, Americans, Aryans, whatever, other STUPID people say that because a person has certain hobby interests, he must be of a certain sexual orientatiom. Ignore them, just make sure everyone knows that both groups are IDIOTS. for the sake of freedom.
It's just curious that all these years after Stonewall, etc., saying someone is gay is such a common (and boring) insult.
Mark
Actually, a gay friend once asked me not to say things were "gay" when I disapproved of them. He felt that it was degrading to his state of being. I found it strange that you could not use the same word with two different meanings depending on context: his sexual preference, which is "gay" meaning homosexual, and that train station looks "gay", meaning it looks shoddy and done up with cheap plastic, and doesn't look nice. The description of train station has nothing to do with the sexual preference of my gay friend or with his dress code.
It's kind of like saying that the girl is "hot" and that cup of coffee is "hot". It doesn't mean that you find the coffee sexually attractive, or if you touch the girl you will have burns on your hands.
AEM7
A feminist would find it very offensive that a person should refer to a girl as "hot". Being "hot" can be a negative attribute, especially when the girl does not intend to be considered sexually attractive. Girls also feel threatened if they are labelled "hot". It's not a positive meaning of "hot" except to the most chauvinistic male.
If things that are cheap and plastic and shoddy is not "gay", then girls who are pretty and dressed seductively are not "hot".
AEM7
Well that is because there are very few feminists that can be considered "hot".
What about my girlfriend... AND my hourse-riding ex-girlfriend?
I do take issue with some feminists, but I don't have prejudices with respect to their appearance and the level of attractive quality.
I've known girls like that...
You know that people who call others "gay" (assuming that the people being called aren't openly gay) are just insecure about their own sexual orientation.
Just tell this dumbass that, and watch how angry they get. And this person would become angry because of his own homophobia.
How true. It reminds me of a kid who would be the first to scream 'faggot' at you in insult. 10 years later, I run into the same jerk at college. He turned into an OK guy. And he's gay.
Just one of life's little ironies...
-Hank :)
[Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too. I have told this person to come to the chat on Wednesday to convince us that it is. Please come willing to fight for railfanning not being gay and to show this person they are wrong and we don't critizize their hobbies! Thanks!]
Don't bother wasting your time by responding to the schmuck. What a ridiculous comment!
These people don't understand what you do, and are afraid of you because you think for yourself. Saying something "is gay" is just an off the cuff dismissal from someone who can't "think outside of the box"
Anyone have a problem with that?
Bill J.
None from here. Besides it's nobody's business but your own. How's that from a Conservative Republican? However, if you are anti Sea Beach then we have a problem; if you're pro Sea Beach then you have a new buddy on this site. Have a great day.
No problem kid! More power to you! I have more gay friends then straight friends and they are the coolest and funniest bunch of people I've hung out with!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
The point of the original post in this tread is to refute the idiotic claim that ALL railfans MUST be gay BY DEFINITION.
Of course there are gay railfans. There are also gay baseball fans, gay joggers, gay rifle collectors, gay architects, and so forth. By somebody's odd logic, then, ALL baseball fans, joggers, rifle collectors, and architects must be gay by definition. But how can that be, when there's at least one non-gay baseball fan, etc.?
My own approach is not to rush over to some chatroom to "discuss" the matter with someone who probably won't change his/her mind, anyway. There's no sense in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, and no use dignifying a bigot's comments with a response.
It isn't just me. She isn't that best in choosing the right words. What she said is that it is stupid and she went on insulting what we believe. She things horseback riding and going to the mall is interesting and I never said it was "gay" (if u have AOL, u can pull up her profile: nikebabe17). Just come anyway because if she doesn't show, she gets to be in debt and we can talk about subways. If she comes, we can annoy the heck out of her and insult her, and then talk about subways.
WHOA!
Horseback riding IS interesting -- the only girl railfan I'd met was really into her horses, and she once told me that trains are, well, just like horses, each having their own personality, and they just go faster, and they have to be cared for, too. I ended up going horsueback riding with this girl. Anyway. Well Jersey Mike met this horsueback riding girl too, and he went riding with her, too. I even have the fotos. Once you understand hourseback riding, you'll realize it's as much fun as going train riding.
But going to the mall IS boring.
AEM7
Peace,
ANDEE
It's bad sign on SubTalk when we have to restart ancient threads.
No it isn't. If the discussion simply started anew, no one would complain.
Reviving old threads is BETTER, everyone can see earlier versions of the discussion instead of rehashing the same exact points.
So in theory, if you are skilled at riding one horse, you should be able to ride any horse. But also like a train, each horse has its own personality. I would like to see a BART operator try to tame a crazed Triplex! Yeeeee-hah!
As to railfans liking women who ride horses, who wouldn't? A girl or woman on a horse is a very pretty, graceful and attractive thing.
It used to be said that young women shouldn't go horseback riding because their husbands wouldn't think they were virgins on their wedding nights.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Then again, being this is a three year old thread maybe you already did prove it.
Yeah, when I read that thread, I sensed that WMATAGOAUGH had a crush on this girl. The thing is, railfan males tend to fall for horsueriding girls -- until they realize it's unattainable, and then they go for something far more practical and better. I've had the same experience.
WMATAGOAUGH is such a cool dude. I can really relate to him, at least on the railfan in their 20's level.
AEM7
That's an interesting theory. I wonder is some foundation would give me a $10 million grant to study it?
If we still lived in the age of horsedrawn streetcars that make for a perfect match, I suppose.
Mark
I guess the author associate people who use tokens are "queer"
The word "gay" has taken on different meanings to the 20 something generation. It usually means that activity is "weird" or "unusual." The person who said it would probably think coin or stamp collecting was "gay" as well. Again, it is a lack of understanding of what railfanning is all about.
As a Muslim, I find it totally offensive to associate railfanning (which I love) with homosexuality. They are two different things not related to each other, and I will not divulge any further on this issue because then I will end up preaching religion here.
The issue isn't so much about who is gay, but what if somebody is gay. If someone in here is gay, he still deserves to be treated with the same respect as a railfan would treat another railfan.
There is a correlation between being gay and being a railfan, just like there is a correlation between smoking and getting cancer. But lots of people who smoke do not get cancer, and lots of people who get cancer are not smokers. Regardless of whether someone has cancer or not, people who smoke treat each other with the same respect that a smoker would treat another.
By the way, just out of my college class:
Number of students: 15 (of which 12 are male)
Number of railfans: 5
Number of gays: 4
Number of gay railfans: 3
Not a big sample, but illustrates my point about correlation, not causation.
AEM7
Railfans appear much more likely than average to be male (by an overwhleming margin), or to be in the Autistic spectrum, or to be of unusual intelligence (either very high or lower than average). I would say that railfans are also people are more likely than the general populace to pursue technical and scientific fields. Interestingly, there appears to be zero correlation of race or ethniciry.
What's unusual to me is that this charge was made by a girl. Usually it's only men and boys who would deride another male's sexuality. It sounds to me like she was pissed because she wasn't being paid attention to. Or maybe it was a challenge.
Seems to me the question wouldn't be whether railfanning might attract gays as why it might. A non-rail example is body-building. Body builders are often accused of being gay--Joe Wieder, the body-building guru acknowledged that body-building probably does attract more gays (but not overwhelmingly more) than in the general population, because of its emphasis on perfection of the male (and more recently female) body. But the great majority of body-builders are not gay--ask the people who tried to mess up Arnold's campaign.
A more credible rumor is that many top-level bodybuilders, while they do not consider themselves gay, are willing to pose nude to be photographed or sketched by gay men, in return for money. They do not actually engage in any sexual activity. What makes this rumor fairly easy to believe is the oft-cited claim that gay men tend to be excited by hugely muscled male bodies - much more so than women, who are often repulsed by the sight. In addition, money is usually a big problem for all but the very top bodybuilders: endorsements are few and far between, prize money is minimal, the extreme demands of a bodybuilder's training regimen make it very difficult to hold a day job (many work as bouncers, but that usually doesn't pay well), and last but definitely not least, the average competitive pro or top amateur bodybuilder has to spend at least $60K per year on 'roids.
A correlation to that would be to assume that a professional female artist's model could be viewed as "easy" because she accepts money to allow straight males to sketch her nude.
A corollary, not correlation.
cor·ol·lar·y (kôr-lr, kr-)
n. pl. cor·ol·lar·ies
A proposition that follows with little or no proof required from one already proven. A deduction or an inference. A natural consequence or effect; a result.
It as off-topic as it can be, and has already ventured into the gasoline saturated part of the BBS world known as FLAME WARS.
You're only jealous because you don't have a horseriding girlfriend.
From the 9 fantrips I've attended, I have also noticed the same things. The only women I see on these trips are either TA employees or wives/girlfriends of male riders. I have also noticed that many of the regular attendees are either very intelligent or have less than average intelligence (I'm not sure what group I fit in). The younger ones tend to be obsessed with details, the older ones with their experiences as a younger person. I have made many new friends on these trips, but there are plenty of people I've met that I would never want to associate with anywhere else.
Ones that do a credible imitation of an Arnine compressor while shaking your hand?
Wait, I know... GUYS! Well and maybe makeup and shopping.
I guess shopping is a biggie, but I'm not sure how many like to shop with men, and I don't think many guys like to be hauled around on a girl's shopping trip.
Depends also what kind of girl you like. If you meet a girl at a nature preserve wearing a flannel shirt and little makeup, she's probably going to be turned on to a different kind of guy than a prep at a shopping mall glued to her cell.
Since when do shopping malls have cells that hold perps? :-)
Mark
Dang! This thread keeps drifting back on topic!
King of Prussia Mall should be served by the route 100 line and would be if anyone who has a say in the matter had any sense, but...
Isn't there a mall in Cleveland called Tower Center that has rail service? In St. Louis the old passenger rail station was turned into a mall, and is served by the Metrolink light rail.
Mark
Speaking of Springfield Mall, does anyone know if The Leftorium is still open?
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Crime" from the Light Rail is a total lie, since Hunt Valley is on Shawan Road, which is an 8 lane highway (which the Light Rail crosses at grade) that runs west from York Road. The 8 lane part stops at I-83 and Shawan continues west as a typical north Baltimore County local road.
The current owners are converting it to a "Main Street" center, which is the latest trend in shopping places - bringing back the era of the "Main Street" of yore.
The old ownership "blew it" when the Hunt Valley extension was built. The MTA offered to put the station right at the Mall's front door, but no, the owners had it put between the access road and Shawan, so it's a walk across the parking lot to the stores.
Considering the headways on the Light Rail (currently 21 minutes), not too many "bad guys" are going to hang around for 15 or more minutes for a LRV. They are doing what they always have - coming and going by auto. (Sometimes hot, sometimes not.)
I know... I simply quoted deadmalls.com as a way of pointing out one more bunch of folks misled by the stereotype. You had mentioned the plan to put the light rail station by the mall entrance before; too bad they didn't do it, but then again given the NCL mentality that still seems to define Baltimore transit planning it probably wouldn't have made much difference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If this was the case, you're absolutely correct. The mall will ONLY benefit from the light rail if it's within about 500 feet of the store and headway is within 10 to 15 minutes. The Hudson Bergen light rail is less than 500 feet of Macy's in the New Port Mall. The majority of the customers that enter that store come from the the Lightrail.
The person who made the decision for the mall probably did NOT want the light rail to block motor traffic and placed it far away. He protected the interests of the motorists and got burned big time when they did not patronize his mall.
Justice deserved.
Rouse used a simple trick to make customers happy - wallboard. Vacant store spaces were enclosed with painted wallboard, while at Hunt Valley the vacant store spaces left open, with lighting cables and bare beams showing. Turned the customers off, and with White Marsh opening just 22 days after Hunt Valley, the customers voted with their steering wheels.
With I-83 right on the Mall's entrances, the trip to White Marsh was 20 minutes away.
White Marsh prospered and kept growing, while Hunt Valley atrophied. The light rail was the last hope, and the owners blew that.
Different kind of guy? Haven't you heard the old stereotype - flannel shirts = chewed carpets?
: )
All men love the Three Stooges.
All women HATE them.
The positions are completely reversed for I LOVE LUCY.
At the risk of generalizing, women seem to go for shopping, soap operas, talking about the dumb things their husbands or boyfriends do, and 'touring' a house they're at for the first time.
There have been scattered women on a few previous Subtalk trips. I know of only one who regularly posts on this board. Maybe there are others whose handles obscure their genders. The Transit Museum and MOD trips seem to attract a fair amount of women. Maybe it's because these are 'family' attractions.
I'm a guy, but am not the least bit interested in football. Before you call my masculinity into question, I am into baseball- and trains, obviously.
I have to be the weird one here. I would rather receive a really nicely wrapped pooh bear than some expensive computer gadget that comes in the store bag. See, the point is, I can buy myself computer gadgets, but I can't buy myself nice wrapping -- someone who cares about me has to make it :-)
For years, I've kept wrappings intact for some of the packages I got during the holidat season. I'd cut open the wrapping carefully from one end, and remove the box, and save the wrapping the way it was wrapped (having first flattened it).
The positions are completely reversed for I LOVE LUCY.
Howard, thank you for introducing more ambiguity into my life! :)
--Mark
- Amanda
I am unaware of any worthwhile scientific studies proving such a correlation.
Jeez, has Subtalk fallen so low that we have to argue such BS?
Too bad, cuz it would be interesting to see how religion affects railroading... I wonder if there are particularly Islamic or Christian or Jewish ways of building a railroad or riding a train.
Here are some things that I can think of Judaism (my religion) that can affect railroading:
-Orthodox Judaism requires people to be within walking distance of synagogues on Shabbat (a weekly holiday corresponding to the period between Friday's setting sun and Saturday's setting sun). Because of this, it follows that Orthodox Jewish settlements would be naturally transit-oriented (so long as you build the train station near the synagogue).
-Orthodox Judaism also requires folks to abstain from traveling on Shabbat, as tradition considers this to be work. (This is one reason why I'm NOT an Orthodox Jew. I look forwards to weekend train trips.) Therefore, there will be less ridership on Saturdays coming from stations near Orthodox synagogues.
-Orthodox Judaism practices a code of dietary laws called Kasthrut (origin of the word "kosher"). This applies to food, banning pork and shellfish (another reason for my non-Orthodoxy), requiring meat to be salted to remove the blood, etc. Therefore, kitchens on intercity trains with a largely Orthodox Jewish ridership would be run somewhat differently from other railroad kitchens.
-There may be other rules in Judaism (well, the strict varieties of it, anyway) that may be applicable to railroads. I wonder... How many ways that u can think of does religion affect railroading and taking trips?
Very interesting tie-in piece of Religion and Railfanning. Very nice Richard.
I'd appreicate it if you could email me as I have some other questions about the Muslim religion.
Thanks
Bill
One cannot eat meat for 1/2 hour after eating dairy, and cannot eat dairy 6 hours after eating meat.
Note that poultry is considered meat in this case, which makes no sense, fish isn't.
Common sense. If fish were considered meat, you couldn't have lox & bagel with a schmeer. Who ever heard of chicken & bagel with a schmeer?
Maybe in Kansas...
Make that lack of advanced scientific knowledge. Virtually all Kosher laws are based on an understanding of which foods or ways of handling food are likely to cause illness, and/or on ethical considerations.
It took milennia to have an understanding of proper food raising, handling, and cooking. You can safely eat raw pork in Germany, but I wouldn't do it here. You have to be very careful of the origin of shellfish eaten raw, and so on.
Speaking of institutional menu planning, the Army had rules on what the mess halls had to serve. They allowed a lot of flexibility, but, for example, they had to serve eight pork meals for dinner each month. Well, some bright light got the idea that mess halls should serve one "regional dish" (local to the post) each month. So one month when I was at Fort Meade (Maryland) they served oyster stew. Picture about 100 soldiers sitting at tables staring into bowls of white stuff thinking "what the &*^&*@%#^???". Ate a lot of vegetables and fresh milk for dinner that night.
I wish that oyster stew had been merely bland. Think of the tougest scungili you ever ate. Now cut it in pieces and put it in the bottom of a bowl of warm milk. Nothing can rescue it.
If anyone sneaked it to the base cats, they would probably have been court-martialed.
Fish consumption still peaks on Fridays despite the end of the no-meat rule. Which is why you should never order fish if you go to a restaurant on a Monday - it may be left over from the big shipment received on Friday. If the Monday fish is vinaigrette style, definitely do not order it!
I think a deep-set part of the American rural psyche is the picture of Shakers and their horse-drawn wagons, within a day's journey from a small town. Thus the deep-set prejudice against being dependent on cities, mechanized transport, and what the Shakers call "English" capitalist values, which depend on railroads.
But Amish will ride in a car or take a train or bus if necessity warrants; otherwise it would be almost impossible for Pennsylvania Amish to visit Amish communities in Ohio.
Like many other religions, Amish also find other ways to get around the more difficult burdens of their life-style--for example, keeping large perishables in communal refrigerators at grocery stores. Many Amish are in the construction business (for non-Amish). They may keep a telephone, but out on the front porch to keep in touch with non-AMish clients.
Some Amish will have a telephone booth located close to several homes for emergency purposes. Another common practice is to use the telephone, washing machine, microwave or whatever of your Mennonite neighbor/cousin who lives next door. In commercial ventures sometimes Amish will go into business with "English" partners who will do all the stuff that uses electricity, etc.
Mennonites on the other hand cover a broad spectrum, ranging from conservatives who live very much like the Amish to very modern-living liberals on the other extreme. I'm a Mennonite, and I'm definitely the latter. Bringing this back on topic, I know lots of Mennonites who prefer to use transit to driving for environmental reasons and such.
Mark
Is Mennonite all Green and stuff? I once met this Mennonite girl who was talking about some urban farm stuff. Apparently she wants to do the grassroots farmer thing except in urban land like in downtown Camden (NJ). I thought she was crazy. But she was very Green and hippie. She also invited me to her house hinting that more might happen. Is that against Mennonite values? Well anyway I wasn't all that interested, but she was fun to talk to for 30 minutes on the train. It gives me a world of insight into other cultures and people when I talk with random strangers onboard transit vehicles.
AEM7
It gives me a world of insight into other cultures and people when I talk with random strangers onboard transit vehicles.
That's very true!
Mark
So she hinted that "more" might happen but you weren't interested? Not good. Maybe you should eat more oysters.
Whoops, I forgot to answer the second part of your question...technically it is, but individuals always come up with their own unorthodoxies in any religion I suppose.
Mark
For me, mostly the issue of food. Like you, I am Jewish but not Orthodox, so the issue of travel on the Sabbath doesn't affect my choice of transportation. Food is an issue, though; while I do not keep strictly kosher, I will not eat pork or shellfish, nor will I mix meat and milk, so selecting a meal on Amtrak can be a challenge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Tanqueray is SO yesterday ... a true Episcopalian should be drinking Bombay Sapphire :)
A true Episcopalian drinks.
I think Jesus would probably join a bunch of disciples on a bus, or a subway if available.
Mark
I sort of envision a modern-day Jesus as driving an older Volvo or Subaru.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not about the whole environment thing, but rather he would be with people.
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
'Cause they're all up above
Drinkin' beer and makin' love
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
Let's just say "WASP," it's shorter if not totally accurate.
Put it this way, when I'd visit WASP friends, the second question was "How the Hell Are Ya?" The FIRST question was "What Can I Make You?"
But the WASPs I've known are mostly real nice people, with many fine qualities, not the least of which is that you can stereotype them without their coming after you with their squirrel guns. ;-)
I think the social drinking is beginning to go out with the older generation, though.
Episcopalians occasionally believe in miracles and sometimes even expect them, particularly during stewardship canvasses or when electing bishops or vicars, or recruiting church school teachers.
Episcopalians believe in ecumenical dialogue because they are certain that after all is said and done, everyone else is bound to become Episcopalian.
Episcopalians strongly believe in Scripture, tradition and reason. While they aren't sure what they believe about these three things, there is almost universal agreement that that is hardly the point.
Episcopalians believe that everything in their life and faith is improved by the presence of good food and drink, not including lime-carrot jello, tropical punch Kool-Aid, or canned tuna fish in any form.
Episcopalians believe that anything worth doing is especially worth doing if it has an obscure title attached to it (e.g. sexton, thurifer, suffragan, canon, dean).
Likewise, Episcopalians believe that any place worth visiting is greatly enhanced by a name that only obliquely describes it (e.g., nave, narthex, sacristy, undercroft, church school supply room).
Episcopalians firmly believe that coffee hour is the eighth sacrament, but only if the coffee is caffeinated.
Episcopalians believe that anthems are most efficacious if sung in Latin or German, especially during Lent.
Episcopalians generally believe that they are the only people God trusts enough to take the summers off from Church.
Some Episcopalians believe Rite I is the best expression of the liturgy. Some believe Rite II is better. Most Episcopalians haven't noticed the difference; they just hope the whole things gets over before noon.
***
Q: What's the difference between Episcopalians and Southern Baptists?
A: Episcopalians actually wave to each other in the liquor store.
***
A line of people was formed up at the Pearly Gates, waiting to enter. St. Peter was checking their names off a clipboard. The next man stepped up and said, "Peter, I'm Jewish, can I still get in?"
St. Peter said, "Why, of course. We have a reciprocity agreement. Let me just check your records here . . . Uh oh. You know that BLT sandwich you had last week? The "B" is for bacon, and bacon is pork, and you know you're not allowed to eat pork. Sorry, come back later."
The next man stepped up. "St. Peter, I'm Roman Catholic, surely you'll let me in."
St. Peter says, "Why, of course. Let me just check the documentation here . . . Hmmmm -- you know that Big Mac you ate last Friday. It's Lent, you know -- no meat on Friday. You'll have to come back later."
The next man steps up. "I'm Episcopalian, I can get in right away, can't I?"
St. Peter says, "Naturally! Let me just check this over . . . Uh oh. That vestry dinner last week? You ate your salad with the dinner fork."
***
Q: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: What???!! My grandmother donated that light bulb in 1954!
***
Q: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two, one to summon the butler to call the electrician, and the other to mix martinis while they wait.
***
Q: How many Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Seventy:
1 Crucifer
2 vergers
2 torchbearers
1 Thurifur
1 Alcolyte to carry new bulb on pillow
1 Subdeacon
1 Deacon
1 Celebrant
50-member choir of men and boys to sing the Mass for the Changing of a Lightbulb (Anglican Missal)
10 people to go to a bar afterwards to argue about the liturgy and vestments.
***
Roman Catholics go to Heaven because of their exceptionally good works.
Lutherans go to Heaven because of their exceptionally good faith.
Episcopalians go to Heaven because of their exceedingly good taste.
***
Different Denomination Ministries:
The Salvation Army picks you up out of the gutter.
The Baptists get you saved.
The Methodists teach you how to sing.
The Presbyterians educate you.
The Episcopalians introduce you to high society.
Then the Salvation Army picks you up out of the gutter again.
***
In all seriousness, the Episcopal Church in the USA is the American branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which traces its roots back to the Church of England. Of course, the C of E split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's ostensibly due to King Henry VIII's desire to get a divorce, although there had already been a strong movement in England at the time to split from Rome.
In terms of theology, the Episcopal Church is unique in that it has no specific dogma or doctrine beyond the traditional Creeds of the early Church (the Apostle's Creed and Nicene Creed). We tend to me more liberal in terms of social issues (we just consecrated our first openly gay bishop earlier this year), although there's actually a fairly wide range of opinions within the church. In terms of worship, there's a fairly great deal of variety, although your typical Anglican mass is almost indistinguishable from a typical Roman Catholic mass. In fact, some Anglo-Catholic parishes (St. Mary the Virgin near Times Square comes to mind) arguably have far more pomp and formality than any RC church, especially since Vatican II.
That's the Episcopal Church in a nutshell...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Whenever you want to bring religion into the subject, it's OK, but when someone else wants to make an informative, witty and funny post about religion, you call them up on it.
But have to quibble with "[will not eat] canned tuna fish in any form."
You forgot Tuna Noodle Casserole. And I don't think the Episcopal Church in America could exist without Campbell cream soups and Lipton onion soup.
What is it with all those Germans marrying Irish? I mean, Irish girls may have been desparate at that point, but surely they could do better than Germans!??? For Goodness sake, they could have married BRITS!!!
Or they could have married a Jewish guy, like my Irish wife Rosemary did.:)
If you don't have to eat it every day of your life, that's fine by me. One of my big complaints with ethnic restaurants is that when you ask for it to made "native style" or "native hot" (for food I'm familiar with) they say "oh, yes, yes" and then they still serve it for what they think is American taste.
OTOH, a well-known German restaurant (Luchow's, on 14th Street) is the only restaurant I was ever in where the waiter ordered me what to eat. I didn't get to German (as opposed to the sometimes similar Continental) resaturants very often, and I knew what I wanted, but he said to me: "You ordered two starches. You can't have that." Yes, it was a la carte. Read the quote with a Colonel Klink accent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(On topic reference: There are a lot of Italians in Howard Beach, who have a new great commute if they work in Jamaica that just opened this week).
It may simply have been because both groups tended to arrive in the United States, or at least in Brooklyn, at roughly the same time and therefore occupied similar rungs on the socioeconomic ladder. Members of both groups consequently encountered each other in schools jobs and neighborhoods with some frequency, and relationships tended to follow.
The Methodists followed them when they built the railroads.
The Episcopalians finally showed up when they put bar cars on the trains.
So does the Bible, by the way. But the Protestents of New Hampshire doesn't seem to give a flying Donkey. Also, there were documented homosexuals in ancient Greek times, apparently practicing their 'deed' under full protection of the religious powers in effect at the time.
What people believe is a personal choice, including what people believe is in their religion. I believe in God, but I only choose to believe in the parts of God that I like to believe in. That's my religious belief.
AZEM7
So it looks like shrimp is out too.
Since I believe that it is widely held that God is the only perfect being and since the holy texts are written by man, translated by man, published by man and interperated by man, there's bone to be some SNAFU's along the way. I mean the Bible dosen't even have a Checksum at the end.
You know, I think that there could be really good penitration with a Special Edition Bible with all the deleted scenes restored. From what I have heard there is some really cool stuff.
: )
Mark
A quick check on Amazon shows that you can get compilations of the gnostic gospels and things like that. A lot of really interesting scholarship is being carried out on those texts these days.
Mark
Same for catfish.
OH NO! Maine's going to hell!
I thought Mainers were all Christian Catholic. Oooopsue. Is this the Aramagaddon?
AEM7
I can't wait to bless the Cabbage.
So it looks like shrimp is out too.
I don't think fornication with shrimp should be legal, no matter what your religious persuasion.*
____________________________
*Except, of course, if you are another shrimp, of the opposite sex, and within the bounds of matrimony.
Yes it does. You just haven't learned how to read it yet. If you look at Revelations, some of the passages in there seem to make no sense. That's because these are actually nonsensical words that are used to represent checksum for the previous chapters. We just havn't figured out the algorithm used to calculate the checksum, so we can't verify the validity of the Bible. Once we have the algorithm, the issues like "wise men" versus "prophets" debate in Genesis would be settled for ever. Presumably "wise men" and "profits" will checksum to different values. If the sum to the same value, then it means God was indifferent as to who those guys were. They were just either wise men or prophets.
AEM7
Remember the OKC bombing on 4/15/1996? The day after the tragic incident, much of the news media were quick to rush to judgement that the same Islamic radicals who were responsible for the 2/1993 WTC bombing might be behind the OKC bombing. Little did they knew that two people who were behind the attack were anything but what the media falsely accused of.
Number Two, Neither gay nor striaght is better than than the other.
I think the vast a majority of people here would not stand for intolorence
OK, take this quick test:
When approaching a home signal, would you prefer that it be green over green, or green over yellow? If you say "red over red" I can probably get you a good rate on therapy. If you say "green over red" you are an unreconstructed IRT fan, and beyond help.
My head is always stuck at a 90 degree angle, especially on the R40 slants.
I wonder what a Sea Beach fan is like. Head totally upside down in California?
As a frequent New Englande NEC and Boston Line rider you should know that.
Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too
Have you ever had a railfan riding the train “for fun” that was of your gender make a pass at you? No? Has this fool challenging you observed just what gay people do on the train? (Mostly they look at each other.)
No, it is widely known that being a railfan is a hobby for straights…
It does not have feelings and males don't have problems relating to it.
Women, on the other hand, desires things that are real in nature or connected to the earth. Women do not value electrical components and things that is remove from GOD's creation.
Most places you will see women at: Churches, Family reunions, Social clubs, ect. But you will never see a woman on a subway train unless she is using it for going to point A to point B.
I do not dislike the person for saying GAY men like riding subways, but I do think she needs help in understanding the male spices.
I wonder what she thinks about males who have a fascination with electronic gadgets? There is definitely a similarity in liking the subway/bus and spending great time in experiment with your car stereo.
How many women experiment with their car stereo with the cover taken off? How many women would go under the hood of their car?
How would the function without the male spices? We built the trains, planes, buses and everything else that this woman benefits from. And we can't forget computers.
Women are not hands on. But they are nurturers. And this aspect is very important.. because it makes getting the job done easier.
Funny I might say this, but maybe her boy friend (or former boy friend) is (was) a subway fan. If that's true, it becomes clear why she would say that these men are Gay. Because it is a way to hide her own insecurities. Maybe he admired the subway over her.. who knows.. Women are very funny creators.. Don't always take what they say to be realistic.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!
Remember, I've been married for over 5 years now. And I know how women think. Just be careful
that's all. I. Have. To. Say.
N Broadway Line
Ummmm....exactly which spices are the male ones? :-)
: )
Mark
I love Nutmeg in my Koffee. And before you say it I AM NOT GAT and I AM A RAILFAN.
: )
Mark
How more off-topic can this thread get?
--Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
Not that there's anything wrong with it. :)
In the days before Oct 13th,1950, the Jamaica train ran express from Essex St to Eastern Parkway, stopping only at Myrtle Ave (Marcy Ave was a local stop in those days, Honest). The train from Chambers St to Metropolitan Ave handled the local stops at Marcy, Hewes, Lorimer and Flushing. The Lex handled the local stops at Gates, Halsey and Chauncey.
Who the devil made the local stop at Kosciusko? Was there another train on the line that in my old age I have completely forgotten?
big ed, this question ought to be right up your alley, do you know?
You forgot the #14 line, which ran local from Canal St to either Atlantic Ave, Canarsie or sometimes out to Jamaica, making skip stops with the #15 (like the J/Z). This line was changed to the JJ after 11/27/67 and was eliminated on 7/1/68. I don't believe the Lexington Ave el line ever served the Bway local stops exclusively at any time after the connection to the Willy B was made to the Bway el in 1913.
You're right, I had forgotten about that train, perhaps because I hardly, if ever, used it.
You know, back in those days, no one knew anything about numbers or letters. They were never shown anywhere, not even on the maps. LarryRedbirdR33 asked me in a post, many months ago if I enjoyed riding on the 12, and I did not know what he was talking about. I'm not even sure that I can remember the Carnasie Line displaying a 16 on the "Multi's", and they should have. The numbers were the best kept secret of the BMT.
All trains were referred to by names such as Lex, Myrt, Jamaica or Carnasie until the R-16 came on the scene displaying that big 15.
You know, back in those days, no one knew anything about numbers or letters. They were never shown anywhere, not even on the maps.
Actually, if you look at the BMT maps from the 1920s and 1930s on this site, you'll find the route numbers in the service information.
-- Ed Sachs
Until 1955 and the R 15s, the only trains tht showed the numbers were the Triplex, The Multis, The R1-9 and the R11.
As far as I know the R1-9's never never had numbers on their rolls.
The destination head signs had number 2 as well as other numbers, when they wereused in the 50s on the 4th Ave Local
And the R-1s which ran tests on the Sea Beach in 1931 carried #4 signs up front. Their side destination signs had the terminals reversed, with the upper signs set to Coney Island and the lower signs showing Times Square.
Many R1's did after getting sent to the BMT in 1948.
Here's one of them. R1 #100 spending it's last days on the Culver Shuttle @ 1971 ...
That would have been the museum train.. pity I missed seeing that. I was working the A division at the time.
Nope, this is an in-service R1 on the Culver Shuttle. In 1971 R1 #100 was still in service.
Yes, in-service she was, BUT I never remember seeing ANY R-1 thru R-9 cars looking THAT spiffy back in 1971 (they were endemic in Jamaica Yard and Eastern Division); #100 had to have been tapped for the Museum and she certainly looks to be in museum condition, even though in service.
What others were in the train with #100? R4 #484? R7 #1575 was still toiling away in Eastern Division back then.
wayne
There are photos in the car section of #100 on the Culver Shuttle in 1971. And elsewhere. IIRC, 1440 was also part of that consist. I agree with you: 100 looks as if it's ready for the museum. There's a photo of it in New York Subway Cars from 1969 or thereabouts, and it definitely shows its age. It was part of a D train.
Here's the same car from 1969 on the B line. You're correct, it was definatly spruced up:
Sometime back in 1970, I spotted #100 on the "F" train, amid a consist of mixed R-4s (800-series), R-6s and lo-number R-7s. She's been everywhere, it seems.
Wayne
I noticed something in those photos of R-1/9 B trains. The "6th Ave." subscript on the bulkhead route curtains was frequently covered over. Take a good look at #100 and you'll see it. Don't ask me why. In addition, a "B/via 6th Ave." sign was spliced into the side route curtains, which IMHO was totally unnecessary because the R-1/9s already had "B/6th Ave. express" signs. Most of the B trains I saw in the late 60s were R-32s with B overlays pasted over the BB signs on both bulkhead and side route curtains.
Guess the offering my memory can make is that the R40 and R42 cars pretty near wiped out the oldest of the Rl-9 types, or did wipe out the Rl's anyway. I'd also guess that the last of the R42 was delivered by l97l. Note the almopst polished brass around the markaers and signs; they never looked that good in service not to mention what appears to be fresh paint?
The last of the R42s arrived in late 1970.
wayne
R-1 #100 was spruced up at about that time, no doubt about it. Curiously, the R-1/9s were never repainted on the outside, except for the few which received the silver and blue treatment. Nor did all of the R-1/9s have those brass strips around their rollsigns. Shore Line's 1689 certainly doesn't. My sign box doesn't have them either; #100's does. I saw this at the Transit Museum last fall.
A lot depended on which group of cars it was from. There were small variations from R1,R4,R6,R7,R9 but it took a bit of riding to notice. Needless to say as time went by a method of cutting production costs evolved which would be the likely reason.
Very true. 1689 is an R-9, so any such cost-cutting measures would have been implemented when it was built. I'm looking at my photo of me assuming the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum as I write this, and it appears that 484 has those same brass strips around its bulkhead signs as well. OTOH, R-4 714 in the 1967 photo of two A trains at Rockaway Blvd., which is my computer's desktop photo, does not appear to have them.
Of course, the most obvious difference between earlier and later R-1/9s was the storm door window. On R-1s and R-4s, it was one large pane of glass; on R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s, it was split. The doors on the R-1s and R-4s sounded different from those on later cars as well.
And R-6-2's had those distinctive (and rather musical) bottle-nosed GE fans, with the curly blades.
The R-6-2 had a few other minor cosmetic differences as well. One of these involved the ceiling lite just outside the motorman's cab. Not only was the rod a little longer, the flare around the bulb socket was wider as well. The bracket leading from the standee pole on the transverse seat to the side of the roof was angled differently too.
Too bad not ONE R-6-2 has survived; what's especially unsettling is that one (#1208) had been slated for preservation and was nicely rehabilitated; somehow they wound up scrapping it. A Cardinal SIN.
My old friend R-6-2 #1277 went to the scrap heap in the fall of 1976.
wayne
How about those little square recesses on the outside of the doors. They were not on all the R1-9's.
You mean those indentations? I thought all of the R-1/9s had them. They looked soo-ooo-oo inviting. That's one thing I noticed right away on that AA train which pulled into 42nd St. on May 7, 1967. I came this close to taking hold of the doors and trying to pry them open.
I've definitely seen 1-9's without them. Maybe some of the car experts can explain.
Well Steve, I did some research on this site and guess what, I'm not nuts after all!!! On the pics of the R1's including R1 100 there is no indentation under the door windows such as this one. But on the pics of the R9's such as this one the indentations are there, right under the door windows. Funny thing, when I was still riding those cars in the 60's & 70's I never knew there were car differences, that they were all the same-so those little differences such as the indentations & storm door windows (double, single, with or without wire mesh) used to drive me nuts. I remember saying many times: "don't these cars have...."
indentations in side doors on R-1 thru R-9 cars
Obviously, R-7 has 'em too (to wit, #1528 in the photo above), and I do remember seeing them on R-6. The R-4 has them too. It seems that the only ones which don't are the R-1.
wayne
That's not the one that was involved in that 1973 incident, was it?:-) Speaking of that, how would that tie in with that sick passenger thread? You said you got off at Queens Plaza along with just about everyone else in the car a la "A Night at the Opera", and I assume the train went on its way without further delay.
I've always thought of myself as being very observant, but I never picked up nearly as many nuances on the R-1/9s as you did. Other than the differences in storm door windows, interior paint schemes, and door sounds, there wasn't much else. Maybe I was just soaking in all those marvelous sounds. Then again I wasn't a daily rider, just a Saturday commuter, and really didn't ride on those old timers all that much. In fact, I rode on them more times on the Canarsie line than all of the IND routes combined. That's what happens when you insist on taking an A train at all costs.:-)
R-6-2 #1277
That's not the one that was involved in that 1973 incident, was it?:-)
Yep, it sure was!
When we got to Queens Pza, most everybody on the RIGHT side fell out. Me? I was wedged in pretty tight (I squeezed in at Lex., remember?) and had no place to go (at Lex. the doors open on the left). After a shuffle, we got going again; halfway between QP and Roosevelt Ave the air began to get very bad and was putting a hurt on my nose. Still I couldn't get off, even at Roosevelt. Too many people. I endured the situation until 71st Avenue when I bailed out.
wayne
Thanks. I printed your post from last summer with the Gray Book and all. You said you changed trains twice after that, but I wasn't sure if you got off that F train at Queens Plaza or Roosevelt or 71st.
Do you think they would have held up that train at QP if the same sort of thing had happened today?
I got off the R-6-2 at 71st Avenue, the first station where I could manage to maneuver my way out. By that time the air in the car was bluddy SOUR. The next train into 71st was also an "F" (remember, there wasn't any "F" for 20 minutes plus before the R-6); it was a Slant R40 with A/C (#4376) and I took it to Parsons, where I got the "E" to 169th; that was an R40M #4496.
Wayne
I take it the fans weren't running on 1277 that day. That's when you find out just how long you can hold your breath.
How fast did that F train of slants take the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. racetrack stretch?
As a matter of fact, #1277's GE fans were INTERMITTENT. They'd be off, then one or two of them would go on then off again. PLUS there was HEAT in the car as well, for no good reason. There was quite a bit of this phenomenon, heat going on when not needed in the R-6 and R-7 cars during their last days.
The Slant was pretty much right behind the R-6 so we had a couple of places where we got yellows. It wasn't a spectacular run like that of R-6-2 #1233 in '73 and R-10 #3020 in 1981; we may have gotten a bit above 40MPH. The A/C was on full tilt in #4376 and it was ice cold, with condensate on the windows. BTW the entire consist of the Slant was R40-AC. No R40 Soots. The R40M was pretty cold too.
Wayne
The R1-9 didn't have thermostats , neither did the rest of the old heavyweights. So who ever made thew train up turned the heat on by mistake or didn't bother to look.
Ah, so that prewar F rocket ride you spoke of occurred in '73. I have to say I never heard the bull and pinion gears get up to A above middle C. A flat above middle C, yes, on the BMT standards in the 14th St. tunnel. I'm pretty sure the R-7/9s got up there as well. Other than that, F# or possibly G above middle C was as high as they ever got along CPW or Queens. I can't remember how high that E train got up to along Fulton St. in 1969. That's one thing I regret - express rides on the R-1/9s were very few and far between for me.
The Fulton St. express ride on the R1-9 was a blast, believe me. One of my favorite runs in those days was the E from Jamaica to either Rockaway branch, including 8th Ave. express.
Yep, #1233 was homeward bound Monday November 12, 1973. I don't ever remember the gears hitting "A" before that or after it. I was afraid we were going to become airborne - I was spellbound at the front window as everything went by at a blur. We went round the broad curve between Van Wyck and Sutphin at probably 45 MPH then he gave it the gun on the straightaway.
BTW I rode #1277 on November 6, 1973 as well, this time inbound from 179th Street to Lexington Avenue.
Wayne
You realize, of course, that A above middle C is none other than A-440 in today's scheme of things. I'm willing to bet the R-1/9s may have hit that magic pitch on the Howard Beach-Broad Channel drag strip. If that blistering R-10 ride in 1969 was any indication...
Looking back, I was surprised that E train I took back in 1968 on the Queens line didn't get up to A-440, as fast as it was moving. The motorman gave it juice just as we reached 36th St., and the gears bellowed out a resounding F#. That station was a blur.
I presume 1277 had been, shall we say, cleaned up when you rode on it on Nov. 6. BTW, was there a whole lot of graffiti on either of those cars then?
OOPS I didn't fully read the post and in so doing didn't respond to the question -
First (to those who didn't know the overall scenario - a crush-loaded R-6 "F" train with a sick passenger in the first car) I think that if someone had notified the crew that there was a sick passenger aboard they might have done something but there hadn't been an "F" train in close to a half hour (we were already way late). In this day and age I think the passengers would be less tolerant of someone getting sick on the train and would probably have plugged it right there at QP.
Wayne
I imagine that a picture of 1575 before it was made to look like an R10 is rare.
Not really. Here are 3. More are available in the car roster part of this website:
I think what he meant was a picture of R-7 #1575 before its 1946 accident is rare. This accident was the reason #1575 got its new body and interior.
Wayne
05/10/2000
Isn't it funny that on all three of those pix and some others I have seen that #1575 is on an operating end and not buried in the middle. Didn't any motormen confuse it with an R-10 as I have heard?
Bill Newkirk
There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of 1575 in the middle of a D train at Smith-9th Sts. or 4th Ave. I've heard that 1575 was better suited as one or the other; i. e., lead motor or in the middle of a consist. It's easy to imagine a motorman wondering if that car had AMUE braking, which it did, or SMEE because it resembled an R-10.
I'm surprised 1575 had a Canarsie sign on its destination curtain, not that it mattered. When the R-7/9s ran on the Eastern Division, their front destination curtains weren't used, even though they remained in place. The canvas was cranked all the way to the blank portion at one end.
You are absolutely right Steve - I never remember seeing ANY of the R-7A/R-9 wearing end destination signs - ONLY route markers.
Wayne
The funny thing is, if you look at that picture of 1575 with the "Canarsie" destination sign, that sign looks as though it came out of an R-16, judging from the graphics. But why did they bother to install that curtain if they weren't going to use destination signs?
Although destination signs weren't "officially" used on the R-7/9s when they ran on the Eastern Division, once in a while a train would display a destination. There is a photo of a QJ train on the Brighton line with "Coney Island" in the front slot.
A similar analogy would be the marker lights on the Redbirds. Officially, they're supposed to be set to red-red, but once in a while, they'll be set to an old corresponding route color code.
Steve..I believe the R-16's had ROCKAWAY PARKWAY on their front roll signs, not CANARSIE. This looks like a homemade sign on 1575.
Carl M.
Thanks, I'll take your word for it.
Oops. When was the re-building done? 1939?
I believe the car was rebuilt in 1946-47 in anticipation of the R-10 order. It was a cosmetic rebuild more than anything else because the car's mechanical and electrical innards remained the same. 1575 ended up looking like an R-10, but was still an R-7A.
I heard that, "Hey - you - almost an R-10!" was a commonly heard phrase.:-)
And its looks never won it any brownie points in William Padron's book, either.
Wayne
I assume thats Ditmas, right?
Yep
Hey Chris R16,
Thanx a heap for the to-die-for shot of R-1 #100. It is now wallpaper on my PC here at work. And it looks great, as R1-9's generally do.
Nice addition to my surroundings. Thanx again.
Joe Caronetti
Please, all credit deserves to be given to the original photographer and Dave Pirmann for scanning it.
While they didn't "regularly" have numbers on their sign rolls, there were some cars used on the BMT in 1931. A photo in Greller's "New York City Subway Cars", page 31, shows car 381 with a #4 in the end sign, and the caption stated that it was being used on the Sea Beach Line "as part of a test". (The caption also states that cars 214-211-208-207-384-387-385-381 were the consist for the test train, so I assume at least the end cars of the train had the signage.)
The side signs read:
CONEY ISLAND (top)
TIMES SQUARE (bottom)
Bridge (upper line of large route)
Sea Beach Express (lower line of large route)
The test apparently ran from July 8, 1931 when the photo was taken until 12/1931 -- captioning says "December 1931 will see this small group return to 207th Street."
Might add that (sorry I'm not exact for dates nor duration) about l952 a group of the low-number R1 cars went on loan to the BMT, and about l958-59 a group og high number R9's were loaned to the BMT. These unfortunately used on the 4th Ave. local (would have been more fun on a fast line) and carried the "2" route designation signs..
Many R1's did after getting sent to the BMT in 1948.
In l955 it was the Rl6 that appeared on the Eastern; the Rl5 were built for Fluching in l950. As the Rl0's did a short stint on the Eastern as Karl B also mentioned they have had the numbers too... or at least provision for them.
Some R10's did have BMT numbers:
That picture of the R-10's looks like they are on the city bound track at Myrtle Ave. Is there any chance that it was taken in late 1954 or early 1955 when they were used to acquaint crews for the arrival of the brand new R-16's.
I remember that usage very well but I didn't remember any of them having signs, of course that was 45 years ago, and they say the memory is the first thing to go. I do remember that they never ran as fast on the Jamaica Line as they did on the "A".
Nothing ran as fast on any of the Eastern lines as they did on the IND. I've heard that the BMT had lower voltage; I had the same feeling with an Rl-9 on the D train. When they ran below DeKalb on the Brighton local they weren't as snappy; onthe express they had achance to highball. As for training crews never rode the Jamaica el until the summer of l955 and they already had Rl6's and I rode an Rl0 on the Jam. el after that... maybe the winter of '56? I concur with your idea of location.
As a kid, motormen and gatemen that I talked to always used to mention 550 volts, and I assumed that the entire system was 550.
Maybe it was just the BMT that operated on 550 volts.:-)
I would imagine those 30 R-10s on the Eastern Division all had BMT number curtains while they ran there. You mentioned earlier that they kept their original paint scheme. As for slower speeds on the elevated structures, even my mother thought that was true. I can remember the R-27s getting a nice head of steam between, IIRC, Flushing Ave. and Lorimer St. along Broadway.
Oh and speaking of on-this-date trivia, it was 28 years ago today that I arrived in Gettysburg with my high school band. My host family had this ratty '59 or '60 Pontiac station wagon, and the senior bandsman took it up to around 60 on one of those two-lane country roads.
I have a snapshot of an R-10 on the curve at Crescent St in late 1954, with nothing showing in the front signboards, neither number or destination. The picture was supposed to have been taken on the first day of revenue service on the BMT, which was Nov 1st 1954.
Just in passing, 1972 was the year I bought my first Pontiac Station Wagon, it was getting kind of "ratty" when I finally traded it in many years later.
I can't believe your ability for remembering dates! :-)
Hey, what can I say?:-) Yesterday also marked 30 years since my first and only visit to Philadelphia. Saw some PCCs cruising along. My college commencement is an easy date to remember; Mt. St. Helens blew up on that very day. The ultimate example of my quirk is a coworker of mine was born on Sept. 16, 1962, and I remember that day! It's become a private joke between us. We were throwing a surprise birthday party for my grandfather. I look at it as sheer coincidence.
Back on topic, it may have been that those R-10s which were transferred to the Eastern Division received roller curtains later on. You would think that they would be fitted with signs first.
The multis did show #16 when they ran on the 14th St. Canarsie line. When they ran out to Lefferts Ave. on the old Fulton St. el portion, they carried #13 signs. This sign display mechanism tended to malfunction in later years, so they often operated with the wrong signs showing. Karl's observation is correct: until the R-16s arrived, no one knew about the 14 and 15 markings for Broadway-Brooklyn and Jamaica trains.
The BMT number code never really caught on because only a small percentage of rolling stock was equipped with end signs, and then it was all subway equipment. Number markings never appeared on el cars. Passengers relied on marker lights to identify trains, and referred to routes by name or title. Chances are no one on the Southern Division ever referred to the Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, and Culver lines as the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
When the Jamaica Ran Express on The Broadway Brooklyn Line, there was a Local named the Broadway Brooklyn Line, some ran to Eastern Pkwy. some ran to Jamaica, and even to Rockaway Pky. That train made all local stops.
IIRC, Broadway-Brooklyn trains ran only as far as Crescent St. on the Jamaica line during PM rush hours. Some went as far as Atlantic Ave; others went on to Rockaway Parkway. JJ trains continued this PM rush hour service pattern.
The #14 did run to 168th St. in the 1950's as part of a 14/15 skip stop service. I believe this was only during the PM rush.
There is a pamphlet describing 14/15 skip-stop service during AM rush hours along Jamaica Ave. on Joe Korman's website. It was implemented in 1959.
It was that website in which I learned this fact from. It must have sucked to have your station designated for the #14 only, making all local stops east of Bway Junction with the #15 going express.
First time on the scene today..home repairs yet you know. The answer has been given by Chris R16..I think I found one flaw though, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Guess the JJ discontinuance was upon the creation of the KK line; for some reason I thought the KK came about with the Nov 67 merger but I could be wrong. In any event add the KK (later just K) to the list of trains that made the local stops when the J or earlier yet the QJ ran express. The K was the train that ran to and from 57/6 north of Essex. Part of the grandplan to lighten the burden on the E and F lines but very regrettably it never caught on and was completely dicontinues --I think in l975 or 76; from then on the J made all stops past B'way/ Myrtle.Spoiled a fun express ride on that nice el straightaway; pity.
Yes, the KK took over from the JJ on 7/1/68, the day the new 57th/6th Ave. terminal stop opened. Running the KK as the local doomed it to failure.
Yes, about a dozen of us walked the SIRT north shore line today in the heat, through the over-growth, and over some very muddy swamp-like terrain. We walked through the remains of a few stations. It was one of our more difficult hikes, but interesting. Keep in mind the previous time this tour was scheduled it was snowed out. It did not snow today.
Oh--and thanks go again to Mark W. for his role as tour guide.
Did anyone take photographs....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hank did. See his post.
It will, unfortunately, be a few days. I was requested to work overtime, and I currently have no time during the week to work on the photos. I expect to have them up by Saturday night. ALl that's left to do is resize them so they're less unweildy.
-Hank
no problem, I get photos of the canal street station being rebuilt.
I need to send them to dave.
I'm sorry I missed you guy. The Five Boroughs Bike Tour was going on, and I got caught in traffic.
Met Mark W. and several others at Port Richmond for the SIR walk 5/7/00. Will post some pictures later, since I haven't made it home yet.
-Hank
FYI, we walked approximately 4 miles, but that's driving via Richmond Terrace, and doesn't cout our walk backwards toward the end of the viaduct. I hope to be able to post the pictures shortly. I've downloaded them from the camera, and renamed the files appropriately. I need just to resize them so they can be downloaded in a reasonable amout of time.
-Hank
Rosanne and I walked a total of about 6.5 miles including the walk from the end of the tour to our car which was parked on Gulf Road.
05/08/2000
When I walked the LIRR Rocakway Line back 1990, the total trip for me was 4.2 miles, that was devised by taking an odometer reading on my car and multiplying it by 2. So roughly that was how much I walked. I am not sure if your walk was one way or round trip, but when I walked the "Rock" it was early spring and had a light jacket on. being it was a scorcher yesterday, I hope you guys had water and took a rest in the shade. How long was your tour and did you encounter any problems?
Bill Newkirk
We stopped in a store before we left and some people bought drinks. We did take a few breaks along the way, and at one point Mark found a way off of the ROW and offered it as a way out if anyone wanted to leave. I think a few people did leave, but I wasn't paying much attention to it since we were in for the duration. The plant growth along part of the ROW was a problem but we managed to get through it. Another problem was the mud in a few spots that resembled a swamp. There was no problem where we began. That is, we started at street level, and we ended at street level. We exited the ROW through a hole in a fence at Arlington Place and South Street just before the line entered Port Ivory. Most of the group took a bus back to St.George, Hank took one back to Port Richmond where his car was, and Rosanne and I walked back to our car near the Goethals Bridge. The total mileage on the ROW was about 3.5 or 4 miles. We started at about 12N and ended about 2:30.
What is the fastest way Mid Week, Mid Day, from LaGuardia to Grand Central. The Q 33 bus to Jackson Hts and then 7 Train, or the M 60 bus to 125th Lex and the 4/5 Train
Interesting question. My instinct is to stay away from any motor vehicle across the city's rivers, but the Lex express certainly would be a lot quicker than a Flushing local. I presume you are setting your time frame so that there is no express. I think we need someone who has had more experience commuting through the airpot. Todd, where are you?
Bob, I've done both repeatedly. In fact, monthly (or more) for 20+ years.
The Q33/7 is a consistent 50 minutes, +/-5 depending upon traffic in Jackson Heights. The M60 can get really bogged down on the Triboro and/or 125th street, making it a 60+ minute ride. If you're looking to minimize ride time, I'd go for the Q33/7.
I would take whichever comes first, M60 or Q33. BUT....
Take the M60 only as far as the N line Astoria Blvd. station on 31 St. in Queens, then take the N into Manhattan.
Also if you take the Q33 to Jackson Heights, taking the E/F into Manhattan is possibly faster than the #7.
Going back to LGA, take the E/F to Roosevelt Avenue, then the Q33.
WHAT: The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy, a non-profit organization of
historians, architects, artists, educators and other professionals, is
sponsoring walking tours of local historic landmarks during National
Preservation Week, May 14-20, 2000.
WHEN/WHERE: The following tours are scheduled:
* The Bergen Arches, May 14th, 10AM (meet at 10th & Brunswick Streets)
* The Warehouse District (self-guided; download from website) which includes the H&MRR Powerhouse
* The Barrow Mansion, 83 Wayne Street, May 20th, doors open 12-4PM
Bonus Tours:
* The Pennsylvania Railroad Harsimus Stem Embankment, May 21, 1PM (meet at
6th & Brunswick Streets)
* Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Historical Tour, May 21, 4PM (meet at Exchange
Place stop)
Background info on these events/sites can be found on our web site, www.jerseycityhistory.net
Topping the agenda of the Landmarks Conservancy starting in the year 2000:
* A major preservation campaign for Jersey City's last great architectural
monument on the waterfront––the wondrous Hudson & Manhattan Railroad
Powerhouse, a 1906 Romanesque Revival industrial structure that the New York
Times has hailed as a "cathedral...a masterpiece of brickwork."
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of Jersey City's few
remaining cobblestone streets, including those located in the Heights,
Communipaw, and Downtown.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the stone walls of
the Jersey City Waterworks Reservoir located in the Heights between Central
and Summit Avenues. The Reservoir, with its graceful Egyptian Revival
design, was erected around 1850, making it the oldest large-scale stone
structure in Jersey City today.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the Bergen Arches, a
turn-of-the-twentieth century railroad cut commissioned by the Lackawanna
Railroad. The Arches, which stretch from the foot of Dickinson High School
to the western edge of Jersey City, consist of a narrow corridor of brick
arches and chiseled cliffs that soar up to one hundred feet high. Until
recently the Arches, abandoned for sixty years, have become a natural
habitat for vegetation and wild life. However, recent federal funding has
permitted a transportation feasibility study to be conducted. As a result
much of the dense vegetation has been cleared.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the Medical Center
Complex, including the Margaret Hague Maternity Hospital. The Medical
Center, designed by Jersey City's most prolific architect, John Rowland,
will be abandoned soon when the hospital's new Downtown location is
completed. The Margaret Hague Hospital, where a large percentage of Hudson
County residents were born, has been abandoned and deteriorating for nearly
twenty-five years.
The Landmarks Conservancy also supports the following preservation
campaigns:
* The massive Sixth Street Pennsylvania Railroad Embankment, designed by
James J. Ferris, for whom a local high school is named. The Embankment,
which was recently listed on the State & National Registers of Historic
Places, once led to the Harsimus Cove freight yard (now Avalon Cove, a
sprawling residential complex).
* The Apple Tree House on Academy Street, a colonial home at the heart of
Old Bergen Township, where it is said George Washington visited. The City
plans to house an historical museum here.
CONTACT:
John K. Gomez, Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
P.O. Box 68, Jersey City, NJ 07303-0068
www.jerseycityhistory.net
Too bad the Bergen Arches tour is on Mothers' Day - otherwise I would try and participate, my somewhat limited walking ability notwithstanding (after all, I did manage to do the Polo Grounds shuttle, thanks to some assistance from Jr. and a couple of other SubTalkers).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Arches are a veritable trash heap. Lost count of the old tires and wheel rims. Spotted half a motorcycle. The place needs a serious clean up. As for being "narrow," it's wide enough for four tracks. In fact, there is still an isolated piece of track in the cut, with some 4-5 inch thick trees growing between the rails. Kind of reminds me of part of the abandoned Rockaway line.
Leslie Stahl did a report on new mental illness laws in New York State that force paitents to take their medicine, and focused on Charles Stevens (LIRR samurai sword attacker), Andrew Goldstein (who pushed the woman in front of the N train at 23rd and Broadway) and James Sachs (less dangerous, only kissed the floor at Penn Station) and their treatement under the new laws.
The opposing idea, that making these people take their medication is a violation of civil rights, was pretty much blown away by Steven's mother, who asked what about her rights not to be pushed in front of a train by a violent, crazy son. Still, the report said the law was facing court challenge, so it will probably depend on which judge it gets assigned to as to whether or not it survives.
On a lighter note, Sachs was at the Union Square station when a train of Redbirds came in, turned to Stahl and said "We got a new one!" And, yes, he was supposed to be on his medication at the time.
Notice the association between mental illness, violence, and mass transit. The implication is that the subway is the place to be afraid of people who are off their medication.
On the other hand, the assumption is that those who lash out in road rage ARE sane.
The Albanian research sais that a dayly ride in ANY subway equals a recomended doze od Thorazine.
Arti
I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.
.........un-named president and my former idiot state of california ex govonor...... RONALD REAGAN.......
with his cut the funding off them off and kill them his hatred of the working class and working poor
his belief that all homeless are that way because they want to be ....( totally insane )..............
and finally the rich mans president ........RONALD REGAN..... and his side kicks bush and quail !!!
the latest republican president....bill clinton. !! i saw 60 minutes tonight the mentally ill should be taken care of !!
I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.
Why is this a good thing? There is a certain sense of satisfaction to the thought of ex-President Reagan wandering the streets, impoverished, as a result of his own policies.
CH.
isnt he ...ex president regan suffering from some kind of alzheimers association mental disorder breakdown ??
probably also when he was our govonor and then president as well !!
To anyone knowledgeable about LACMTA: Is it true that the Division # is permanently painted onto the bus? I have seen this in movies, tv shows, etc. I spotted this on the back of a certain bus. Please comment. Thanks.
[[I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.]
[Why is this a good thing? There is a certain sense of satisfaction to the thought of ex-President Reagan wandering the streets,
impoverished, as a result of his own policies.]
IIRC, the "deinstitutionalization" program well predates Reagan's presidency. Patient counts in most mental hospitals have been declining since at least the late 1950's. And I suspect that the problem of the mentally ill using subways as a refuge also goes back many years.
True. The big push to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill occurred in New York City in the early 1970s, after Geraldo Rivera's reports on the abuses at Willobrook that made him a star at WABC. The city and state responded by closing the wards and releasing people onto the streets, but the city, state and federal government never provided the support needed to keep track on most of those released and keep their problems under control, if possible, with medications.
The reports and the scandal broke when Lindsey and Beame were mayors, Rocky and Malcolm Wilson were governor and Nixon was president. Reagan was finishing off his term in California at the time, so I guess we can wish Alzheimer's on to the remaining survivors of the afformentioned group. And what the heck, throw Geraldo in there too -- after all, he started the whole thing.
[The big push to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill occurred in New York City in the early 1970s, after Geraldo Rivera's reports on the abuses at Willobrook that made him a star at WABC. The city and state responded by closing the wards and releasing people onto the streets, but the city, state and federal government never provided the support needed to keep track on most of those released and keep their problems under control, if possible, with medications.]
You may be right about the dates, but wasn't Willowbrook for the mentally retarded rather than the mentally ill?
It was for the people with severe mental retardation who were unable to or whose families were unable to care for them. But after the reports aired the overreation set in, and the pedlium swung too far in the other direction. Instead of locking everyone with mental disabilites or problems up, they started releasing everyone to either other care facilities or into the general population, but in that case without funding for after-care support.
Most people remember the effect of the latter part, which is why the brief dust-up Giuliani had last year with Hillary about his plans to detain the homeless failed to strike a chord with the population the way Mrs. Clinton hoped it would.
how do you feel about persons who are mental & physical disabled being denied ssi and then forced into
the welfare rolls instead ?? what about those innocent victims or reganomics ??
[re Geraldo's Willowbrook expose]
[It was for the people with severe mental retardation who were unable to or whose families were unable to care for them.]
Back in the late 1960's, there was a full-length documentary film called "Titicuit Follies" that exposed the ghastly conditions at the Titicuit mental hospital in Massachusetts. It has been described as about 1000% more brutal and shocking than Geraldo's work at Willowbrook. As far as I can recall reading, the state mental health department had allowed the filmmakers into the institution thinking that they were going to make a much softer, educational-type documentary. You wonder how these bureaucrats could have been so naive. After the film came out, the officials in Boston went totally ballistic, and got a court order preventing its distribution. Their claim was that the film would violate the privacy of the patients (I don't know why the filmmakers didn't blur the patients' faces and avoid these issues). "Titicuit Follies" remained snagged in the court system and very rarely seen for twenty or more years. By the time it finally got off the restricted list, deinstitutionalization had made it largely irrelevant.
Pardon me if this was posted before, but I'm wondering how does the MTA determine which type of cars should go on a particular line? Apart from the obvious in the tunnel clearances and curves for IRT, BMT-eastern , and IND/BMT-western. More specifically, why does the N have 3 types of cars and the D have only 1 type if the cars can run on both lines? ... and why the redbirds mainly inhabit the 2 & 5 while the R62 100% inhabit the 1 & 3?
All decisions regarding car assignemnts (except for one celebrated instance) are made by the 'Operations/Planning' department. The only exception was when the General Superintendent of Coney island Maintenance Shop decided that it made more sense from a maintenance standpoint to run R-68 on the B and Slant 40s on the Q. There was an initial outcry from the community and some in Operations Planning. However, the performance of both fleets has surged and the community anguish has subsided. Seems like everyone now agrees that it was a good move.
A major factor in determining assignments is the number of cars of each type available and the shop and yard capacities. Usually you want one type of car at each shop to simplefy parts inventories. The major exception seems to be the R-32s, which are somewhat spread around. But as examples the R-46s are all at Jamaica, R-38 and R-44 split between Pitken and 207th, all R-68 at Concourse and so on. The same holds on having the 1/9 shop be all R-62 and the 3 (nine car trains) all R-62A.
Coney Island and some other locations have multiple car types by necessity - there aren't enough cars of one type to serve these locations.
>>> all R-68 at Concourse <<<
All R-68's are not at Concourse.
ANDEE
>>> The same holds on having the 1/9 shop be all R-62 <<<
1/9's are R-62a's the only line running R-62's is the 4.
ANDEE
Concourse Shop has all R-68s but does not have all of the R-68s. For southern maintenance shops, here is the distribution of car fleets.
Jamaica Shop - All R-46, R-32 Phase I, R-32 Phase II
East NY Shop - R-40S, R-40M and R-42
Coney Island Shop - R-32 Phase II, R-40S, R-68, All R-68A
Concourse Shop - R-68
Pitkin Shop - All R-44, R-32 Phase I
207th St. Shop - All R-38, R-32 GE, R-110B (last 6)
My friends always wanna know why the Trains are local on Saturday. I also have a question. Do all Subway Trains go local on Saturday? My friend said they were riding the Lex line, waiting at 68street for an uptown 6, but they gotta 4 instead. They said no 4's and 5's were going express. Is this a Tower ordered move? or do some Trains go express on Saturday and weekends? Also, I saw something kinda Extraordinary. I think (Correct me if I am incorrect) That the 2(7th avenue express, White plains RD) uses the R29 Redbird equipment and the 3(lenox avenue) uses the R62-R62A's. However, last week, I heard my Mom,(a 2,3) rider say that the 2 she rode was Grey(R62) and the 3 she rode home was Red. Huh? I thought It was supposed 2 be reversed? Does this happen often? or was it a Subway Car OOPS?
In Manhattan, the #2, #3, #4, #5, A, B, and D trains are scheduled to run express on weekends, at least during most of the day. However, track work often results in scheduled diversions, and an incident (stalled train, etc.) can cause an unscheduled diversion.
As noted, Redbirds (R-33s, not R-29s) are assigned to #2 service and silver trains (stainless steel R-62As) are assigned to #3 service. Usually the equipment is not swapped between the two routes, especially since #3 trainsets are 9 cars long and #2 trainsets are 10 cars long. Perhaps the "silver" train was actually a #5; two 10-car R-62A sets from the #6 line are used in #5 service during the day and are broken up into 4 OPTO 5-car sets at night for Dyre Avenue shuttle service.
David
Hey folks - this morning NPR did a piece on a remarkable subway Elevator Operator. He works at 181 St on the IND, and apparently has an elevator full of pictures, with music and plants. Interesting story, here is a link:
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=05/07/2000&PrgID=10
you can listen to is by strolling down to the story called "elevator man." You need real audio.
Today as I was railfanning on the Frankford branch of the Market Frankford Line, I heard the T/O announce that there was a broken rail at 60st Station. I did not have time to go there and check it out, but it seems as is my train was directly involved with it somehow. Even so, the rides were still interesting. As I just went from 8th and Market to Frankford and back, my train left Frankford right after it entered it (unusual for a Sunday). Going from Frankford to 8th, we skipped 4 stops, and stopped first at Allegheny, not a normal service pattern. A train follwed right behind us, so I figure it must have been the train I took up to Frankford that was directly involved with any accidents (which would be on the eastbound track), and that delayed traffic, the skip-stop was to get back on schedule.
In other news, I hear that there was still a G.O. on Broad Street Southbound, 3 stations being out of service. Perfect for the weekend of the Broad Street Run, which closed the street for the whole morning.
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club is a new webpage created by NYC Transit employees. It not only provides links to all of your favorite Transit sites but is is also a web portal powered by Dotplanet, an up and coming isp that you will hear much about in the future. Dotplanet has a world class search engine, shopping, news, sports, chat, free email, personalized stock quotes, weather, tv and movie listings. To access the site type http://www. dotplanet.com/groups/default.asp?gid=13714 into your browser. Then you will need to fill out a simple registration to join the web portal which will entitle you to free email and other great features. Please enter registration #290EA and thats all there is to it. Don't forget to bookmark the page. Hope you enjoy our page and keep coming back. Robert DiStefano,Train Service Supervisor.
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club is a new webpage created by NYC Transit employees. It not only provides links to all of your favorite Transit sites but is is also a web portal powered by ---------, an up and coming isp that you will hear much about in the future.
[sniff, sniff.] I smell spam. Do you get kickbacks from your portal for advertising their services?
CH.
It is definitely not spam. Check out the site and see weather it is legit or not. You are free to use it or not use it. You will not receive any solicitations. Robert DiStefano
Getting the popular 'can't find server' error message when I try to go to the site you mentioned.
I'm assuming you did a cut-and-paste from his post. He hit the space bar at one point which will give you that error (I got it too).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many of you went on the subtalk trip yesterday? Mark W. gets my personal thanks. The temp and hot sun was the real killer.
Were there ever any Pix of the Roosevelt terminal visit posted here or elsewere? Please if anyone has info of new or old posted photoes let me or the board know.
Many thanks
avid
I went on the field trip with Mark W's trip and encountered a very funny subtalker. His laught was hysterical. Hank was there, anyone know what his name is?
I thought we were too busy sweating to laugh.
Hi, there. I am curious if anyone rode the "F" Shuttle bus between Stillwell and Kings Highway the last two weekends. If so, can anyone tell me whether any fare was collected/transfers issued on the bus, especially K.H. bound? I do know that transfers were accepted at but not issued at K.H.Station. What about Stillwell, or the intervening bus stops? Please respond. Thanks.
I got into a discussion with another former New Yorker over the weekend, regarding Fulton Lex rush hour service before Oct 13th, 1950.
He acknowledged the service but claimed that there were never any steel signs lettered for the gate cars for Grant Ave. I claim that eastbound the trains displayed
Fulton-Lex Line
Grant Ave
and westbound they displayed
Fulton-Lex Line
Bridge-Jay St
Is there a historian out there who can back me up on the existence of a Grant Ave sign? If it existed, did it say Grant Ave, Grant Av or Grant Avenue?
The train service is not in question, the existence of the sign is the question.
My excursions into Brooklyn didn't begin until l955 (except for family trips to Coney Island) so I can't say anything about Fulton-Lex service. But I'm almost positive I'd seen the C types, and an occasional l300 type BU with Grant Av. signs.. think that was the abbreviation; as some "Fulton" trains turned back at Grant. Most of the line was on either Pitkin or Liberty Ave, the run on Fulton only one stop to Rockaway Ave. Aloso the Lefferts signs still said Lefferts Av. long after it was renamed a boulevard.
I know a guy that has one of those Lefferts Ave signs, and he keeps it packed away in a box. If it were mine, I would have it up on a wall where I could enjoy it. I think it is neat how the BMT called it Ave instead of Blvd. We had a thread here about a year ago as to when Ave actually became Blvd, but we were never able to tie it down as to when.
I do not remember if there was a Grant Ave Station on the old El, The current Grant Ave Station came into existance when they extended the A to Lefferts Blvd in the mid 50s
There was definately a Grant Ave el station. It was a wooden center platform station, which I used on many occasions. It was also the eastern terminus of the Fulton-Lex Line during rush hour.
My dispute with my friend was not over the existence of the station, but whether a Grant Ave sign existed in use on the BU cars.
I used to walk to my dentist after school. His office was at Grant & Liberty. Afterwards I would pay the nickel or dime fare, and ride the gate cars to Eastern Parkway, run up a flight of stairs, then down a flight to the other platform, where I would try to catch a rush hour Lex gate train to 111th St. I normally got off at Crescent St, but if I had extra time, I would ride to 111th St, go thru the stair bit again, and catch still another gate train back to Crescent St.
This was one hell of a roundabout way of getting home, and it caused my mother to get upset with me, but it sure was a great way to ride three different gate trains.
The BU's out of Grant Ave were always 1300 series. Those to 111th St were a mixture of 600's, 900's, 1200's or 1400's (there were only two gate cars carrying 1400 numbers).
Boy you are really showing your age. I barely remember the Lex and Fulton El.
And the term "Fulton el" to me refers to the portion of the J line over Fulton St. So I'm even younger....lol
Hope this answers your question:
www.bmt-lines.com
Thank You very much! You have made my day! I have printed your response, and will show it to him with great glee when I see him later this week.
My compliments to you on a really nice looking sign. When you find signs like that today, they are never in that kind of shape. I'm sure you realize that sign's last day of use was Oct 13th 1950, almost fifty years ago.
OK I was wrong about the abbreviation! Oh well. I'd assume they still used those signs until April l956 when the "Fulton St" el died and service east (south in railroad direction) of Grant Ave. was assumed by the A train via the new connection.
You're right! They did still use the signs until the connection was complete, but the signs for Fulton-Lex Line, Lexington Av Line, Grant Avenue, and 111th St had no use after the "Last Lex" in 1950.
Signs for Eastern Pkway, Rockaway Ave and Lefferts Ave were still being used until the subway-el connection was complete. They would have had to use them in the "C's" or the "Q's" because all of the 1300 series BU's were transferred to Fresh Pond Yards for use on the "Myrt".
You lived in Brooklyn and I lived in the Bronx so I shouldn't see otherwise... but I did ride the "Fulton" in its last l0 months roughly and had ridden a l300 BU set once! Beleieve I had seen one go by on other occasions. The beloved Q's never ran on Fulton. From Queens they went to 3rd Ave. then to Myrtle. I'm almopst positive there was a train turned at Grant Ave. once in a while, if not a rush hour short line it was done for track work. see ya later. Hate to say it but I' addicted to this subtalk thing!
"Hate to say it but I' addicted to this subtalk thing!"
That's the same thing I said two years ago. But be warned, leave it for more than 3 days and you'll be so left out of everything, that you will not know where to start.
You may be right about the 1300's. I thought that the only ones retained at East New York were those used for the work trains involved in the IND connection. The old turnaround track between Grant and Hudson seemed to always have a work train setting in it, and 99% of the time they were powered by 1300's.
You may have liked the "C's" and "Q's", but I hated them. I thought of them as gate cars that had lost their original identity. I was young at the time, but I would go out of my way not to ride on them.
Don't let the addiction interfere with those renovations. Remember, when the house is done, you will have more time for the layout. I'm still counting on you for a three car set of custom built 900's in 0 gauge. :)
Thanks for the positive thoughts on more layout time later. Can't say the C's or Q's were my favorites but indeed I always liked them. After all they were from the awesome generation. The C's were as ugly a homemade remodel as you could ask for but moved. The Q's, especially in their days on 3rd Ave. and first few years on Myrt were very handsome indeed but miserably underpowered with the composite trucks the IRT div. put under thjem, not enough power to have trailers in a set. But they were classics.
I have often been puzzled as to why they went to all that trouble to restore the end platforms and gate hardware to those re-rebuilt Q's in the museum. It must have been a major undertaking and I wonder why they did not restore the clerestory roofs at the same time. I guess they left the composite trucks under them because the correct trucks had long since gone to a scrap yard. The absence of the Van Dorn couplers also is so obvious.
Karl, don't forget the de-construction of those 3 BQ cars,
as we like to call them, was performed when Court Street was
just getting started. It was called the "Transit Exhibit"
back then. It was not a museum, it was a nostalgic exhibit
of old trains. The logic at the time was that it was more
important to convey the "feel" of the BU cars than to attempt
an authentic, museum-quality restoration, which would have been
very difficult anyway because of the lack of mechanical equipment.
To that end, they are successful. The average visitor gets the
point of the open platforms, the gates, the rattan seats, the
wood body, etc. They don't notice the huge H-2 head, they don't
look under the platform and say "hey, where the heck are the
Peckham 40 motor trucks?", and they don't know that the etched glass
BRT logo on the cab doors was not used on the "real" 1400s.
Nowadays, Court Street is the New York Transit Museum. They
have a curator and follow accepted museum practices with their
collection. If the same conversion project were to be suggested
today I doubt it would be approved.
In a way, it is unfortunate
that a Q or QX set was not preserved, as these cars had historic
value, ugly as they may have been, in their final configuration as
the last wooden transit cars to run in the U.S.
Incidentally, raising the roof back to original specs would make
those cars extremely difficult to handle. I'm not sure how far
they'd get in the tunnel before they found a clearance problem.
At one time in the late 1970s someone from Court Street approached
Branford about borrowing or acquiring one of the BUs, but when we
reminded them of the dimmensions that was the end of it.
Jeff, I gripe a lot but do realize that "half a loaf is better than none". I'm glad that they are there, even if they don't look right.
Height wasn't always a problem, was it? I thought that the composite trucks made the cars set higher than the original. In other words, if they could have put the correct trucks back under the cars, they probably could have restored the cars to the original configuration with clerestory roofs. Am I wrong about this?
Are all of the BU's at Branford still on their correct trucks?
The composite trucks did put the cars over the edge height-wise,
but that was 40 years ago. As they found out the hard way with
the Low-V fantrips, not every tunnel clearance remains constant
over the years. The BUs, on their original trucks, are 12'8"
to 12'10" high. All of the B division equipment today is 12'2".
That becomes the de-facto standard and a lot of times the track is
raised up or conduits are run on the tunnel roof. I'm pretty sure
there's no way a 12'8" car is making it into Court Street.
All of Branford's BU cars retained their correct trucks, at least
as of the time of their retirement. We have 4 BUs plus 197,
a Kings County elevated trailer. The 600s were built with Brill
trucks, the 1200s and 1300s with Peckhams, and the 1400s with
ALCos. When the Qs got the so-called Composite trucks (which of
course were not the original Composite trucks but the IRT home-made
jobs from 1912), the ALCo motor trucks went to the remaining 1300s.
Therefore, 1349 and 1362 have those trucks which limits them to
the 1950s in terms of restoration plan. At some earlier time, 659
received Peckham 40 motor trucks which unfortunately precludes its
restoration to a center-door car, unless we can come up with a set
of Brill 27G trucks and WH50E motors! 1227 still has the original
Peckham 40 trucks and could theoretically be back-dated to 1903
with some body work to restore the trap steps, drop-down window
sash and some electrical work.
Thank you Jeff! I have certainly learned much more about my favorite cars from your posts over the last year.
I have a question for you which you may not be able to answer. My favorite BU's were the 900's (particularly #902). Unfortunately none of these cars were preserved anywhere. They had some notable differences from the other BU's. The first thing that comes to mind were the extremely high stormdoor windows. I always had the feeling that this series had slightly taller cars than the others.
Do you know what kind of trucks these cars rode on? Was I correct in remembering that these cars were slightly taller?
My copy of "The Brooklyn Elevated" shows indeed that the earlier cars had higher rooves, likewise some of my photos. This would be all pre-l200 series. The l000 type was also lower but they were arch roof. So you're right on that account, but I must advise that the BRT el fleet was quite a hodgepodge and there were variations within number series below the l000's. Soo to say not all 900's, or 600's and in 2 cases 700's are identical. Can't help you on trucks.
Karl, the only drawings I've seen indicate that the 900s were
about the same height as the 1000s-1400s. Only some of the 700s
and 800s, which were rebuilt from steam coaches, were higher,
coming in a few inches over 13 feet!
The 900s were probably delivered on Brill 27E trucks but
later in life received the BRT standard Peckham 40s.
Those of you who did not get detailed shots of HBLR train sets are out of luck. I noticed over this weekend that skirts have been installed over the trucks. It gives the cars a streamlined appearance, but does not allow good photos.
Skirts make for a good appearence, but are a problem in a derailment.
Skirts came in basically with the PCC, especially Chicago, Pacific Electric and Shaker Rapid's Pullmans. Most Brilliners came with skirts, most properties that had (a) Brilliner removed the skirts after the first derailment.
Chicago kept theirs despite derailments and accidents, Shaker cut holes in the front skirts for the trip arms used on the joint trackage with CTS, and Ferrocarril General Urquesil (FGCU) removed the skirts from the ex-PE cars they bought.
In short, they look great, just don't derail or hit anything and untrack.
But there purpose here is simple-ruduce the noise.
-Hank
But skirts are still a problem in derailments and I doubt a simple skirt reduces noise much, plus with the resilient wheels used today, the only noise is wheel-on-rail, which skirts do little to suppress, as they have to have sufficient ground clearance to prevent contact.
But how often do you have a derailment?
-Hank
And what exactly is the problem in the case of derailments?
1. The skirts get damaged. If on "T" rail, they are bent when the truck hits the ties.
2. The skirts get in the way of the crews doing the rerailing, and are removed to make the job easier.
In Baltimore, we have already have experienced a LRV derailment that resulted from operator error. A 3-car train was run through a reversed switch at 25 MPH, breaking the switch and derailing all 3 cars. It took the crews 7 1/2 hours to rerail the cars, repair the switch and the 125 feet of track that was torn up by the untrackment. If our cars had come with skirts, I suspect that the MTA would have had them removed from the rest of the cars.
Seems like the skirts are a minor problem on top of all that!
We don't have skirts. We'll never know if the skirts would have been a problem.
Does anyone have an informed view of the merits, or lack thereof, of the JFK rail system. I realize that it has been much criticized at this site, because it is objectively less desirable than a service utilizing the old Rockaway LIRR connection (which is presently moribund.) But I don't think the airlines were willing to approve the cost of building a new heavy rail line along that right of way with airport funds. Given that funding limitation, is the proposed system the best alternative?
First of all, we don't allow "informed" views on SubTalk.
Secondly, you seem to think that the airlines have control over all possible sources of funding. The best alternative would have been to do it right with a different source of funds.
Well, that is easy enough to say. But given the tremendous demand that the new 2nd Avenue Subway creates, add the demand for the LIRR East Side Connection, then factor in worthy projects like the LaGuardia extension, the extension of the #7 to the far west side, and the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line to subway service, and it is clear that no alternative mass transit funds are available for the JFK project.
Non sequitor. Just because other things are in the works or dreamed of doesn't mean that money isn't available. The NYC economy is huge. The NYS economy is even bigger. Not everything has to be paid for with federal grants.
As an aside, what is that nonsense about turning the Atlantic Branch into a subway doing on your list of "worthy" projects?
The idea of turning the Atlantic branch into transit service is one that has been advocated by some transit policy groups. I do not really know all of the details as to why this would be a good idea. Do you not agree that it would be a good idea? If not, why not?
The line already duplicates the Brooklyn Fulton line. There should be no reason why this idea should even come up.
Converting the Atlantic Ave LIRR ROW into a subway line would provide a nice express service to take the pressure off J/M and A/C AND to some extent help E/F AND if extended past Jamaica to Valley Stream would provide NEW service, however once you get to Atlantic Ave with the trains you would have a capacity problem getting to lower Manhattan.
Therefore converting without another tunnel or bridge would be a bad idea.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, this raises an interesting issue. I have noticed that in the great debate as to what major transportation projects to fund no one has focused on building a new tunnel to connect the LIRR branch through downtown Brooklyn under the East River to the Financial District. Yet, with the great growth in downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District that is presently occurring, this might actually be an excellent choice from an economic development perspective.
They should've kept the Chestnut Street connection!!!
They should've kept the Chestnut Street
connection!!!
There has been some proposals to use the Nassau Loop, i.e. LIRR would come North & terminate at Chambers or Canal, while J/Z/M would come South off WillyB probally only as far as Chambers. This doesn't solve the East River capacity problem, and unless the new LIRR service was TA would also create a fare problem within the Nassau Loop.
To me it's only half a plan, i.e. much more money would need to be spend putting in additional tracks in Manhattan in addition to a new tunnel for it add service, take pressure off Penn Station and not have a bad effect on existing Brooklyn customers.
Mr t__:^)
Since the powers that be probably plan on cursing the N line to its present existence (will there ever be trains on the BMT-Broadway subway express tracksagain) how about the South side of the Manhattan Bridge? Some dry land surgery would be better (between Flatbush & Atlantic to the bridge) than building a new under-river tunnel. Clearances for LIRR cars are another story even within the Nassau loop.. on the bridge too? I wouldn't hold my breath though, doubt that we'll see any such service.
These issues are probably behind the related proposal to convert the LIRR Atlantic terminal service to MTA standards and make it part of the subway. If this were done, then perhaps you could engineer cross-platform connections at Jamaica between the LIRR and MTA service to downtown Brooklyn, with continuing service through to downtown Manhattan, via bridge or new tunnel. I am uncertain of how to handle the fare control issue. Perhaps it should be considered as part of the LIRR for fare purposes, even though it uses subway cars. In theory, this would be a nice addition to transit in NYC. But I wonder if the cost-benefit analysis would support it.
This idea interests me quite a bit. Has it been formally studied? Are the studies available (hopefully on-line)?
[There has been some proposals to use the Nassau Loop, i.e. LIRR would come North & terminate at Chambers or Canal, while J/Z/M would come South off WillyB probally only as far as Chambers. This doesn't solve the East River capacity problem, and unless the new LIRR service was TA would also create a fare problem within the Nassau Loop.
To me it's only half a plan, i.e. much more money would need to be spend putting in additional tracks in Manhattan in addition to a new tunnel for it add service, take pressure off Penn Station and not have a bad effect on existing Brooklyn customers.
Mr t__:^)]
Both the Nassau Street and Broadway lines are currently underutilized. If you tied the Atlantic Avenue branch into the BMT, you could run B div size hybrid commuter trains and high amenity superexpress shuttles on a 4 minute headway right into the Broadway Line. Add a link at East New York and you could run peak service to the Nassau Street stations, bringing headway down to 2 minutes. You could also offer direct Airtrain service to Lower Manhattan via Broadway, continuing on to Laguardia via the N/R extension. And while you're at it, bring peak Metro North and Bronx superexpress service the other way on the Broadway line, via the Park Avenue and 63rd Street tunnels.
If that cut into subway service, the handful of stations that served the commuter trains and superexpresses could be lengthened. Infrastructure changes: connections at Atlantic Avenue, East New York, the 63rd Street tunnel; some new or modified multimode B division trains; some degree of station renovation.
Excellent ideas. If only as I thought of previously be able to route LIRR over the MannyB-- at the Manhattan end could be routed via Nassau or via Broadway... the old BMT routes restored albeit with both services on the south side of the bridge. I appreciate your idea Josh... it may happen in my lifetime but don't bet on it.
[Excellent ideas. If only as I thought of previously be able to route LIRR over the MannyB-- at the Manhattan end could be routed via Nassau or via Broadway... the old BMT routes restored albeit with both services on the south side of the bridge. I appreciate your idea Josh... it may happen in my lifetime but don't bet on it.]
Hey, suppose you did this:
A and C combine on local tracks west of Lafayette Avenue--they go to two tracks anyway so there would be no difference in capacity
LIRR/superexpress trains replace A at Atlantic Avenue station and run onto Court Street stub, then join the F, which has half its capacity free, west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn
Extend the old stub from chambers street one block to just east of East Broadway
That would be much faster than going over either the Manhattan or Williamsburg Bridges and would have absolutely no effect on subway frequency.
Guess you're thinking harder than I am. Any number of possibilities with very little new trackage and excavation considering the potential benefits.lIKE A FEW OTHER PEOPLE I wish we'd see BMT-B'way Express service back one way or another so I don't even think of more 6th Ave service. I'm still full of thoughts on how the only benefit of what construction they've done is stop at Roosevelt Island, and E and J services shortened; so therefore that doesn't leave me much optimism. Of course the big thing that shouild have been done was 2nd Ave. With 4 tracks south of 63rd that could have offered a downtown LIRR service too. Stick with the idea making; maybe the powers that be will get some ideas.
[Guess you're thinking harder than I am. Any number of possibilities with very little new trackage and excavation considering the potential benefits.lIKE A FEW OTHER PEOPLE I wish we'd see BMT-B'way Express service back one way or another so I don't even think of more 6th Ave service. I'm still full of thoughts on how the only benefit of what construction they've done is stop at Roosevelt Island, and E and J services shortened; so therefore that doesn't leave me much optimism. Of course the big thing that shouild have been done was 2nd Ave. With 4 tracks south of 63rd that could have offered a downtown LIRR service too. Stick with the idea making; maybe the powers that be will get some ideas.]
Sadly, there are plenty of good ideas. Everything is done in a political, half-assed way, and we end up spending billions on trains to nowhere like the Q or the Airtrain, or fabulously expensive projects that sit idle and unused like the 63rd Street tunnel. Everyone knows that the Airtrain should have used the Rockaway Branch and offered service to the business districts. The Federal Government studies overcrowding on the E and F, and concluded what anyyone else would--that the trains should be lengthened, because they stations were designed for longer trains! They proposed a Queens Superexpress but it was killed by NIMBY's. The Laguardia Extension is being killed by Valone and the NJ members of the Port Authority, who won't let the MTA build the line to the terminals because they don't want it to compete with Newark Airport. And so on and so on.
[Yes, this raises an interesting issue. I have noticed that in the great debate as to what major transportation projects to fund no one has focused on building a new tunnel to connect the LIRR branch through downtown Brooklyn under the East River to the Financial District. Yet, with the great growth in downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District that is presently occurring, this might actually be an excellent choice from an economic development perspective.]
It's been suggested--check out the MTA's Lower Manhattan Access Study.
Part of the problem with these studies is that none of them study the region's overall transportation needs, so they often work at cross purposes to one another. Considering that billions of dollars are at stake, you'd think they'd do a more comprehensive analysis. Right now they're talking about building a new tunnel from NJ to a Penn Annex, then to the GCT lower level and a freight tunnel to the Sunnyside Yards. But it seems to me that it would make much more sense to build the NJT tunnel to the World Trade Center, take it across Manhattan, and join it to the Atlantic Avenue Branch. That would open up plenty of capacity in Midtown, reduce crowding on the subway, and reduce the time required to get to Lower Manhattan significantly. As far as I can tell, it's win-win all around.
This is very interesting from a transit perspective, but would it supply the freight capacity that the Sunnyside option seems to provide?
[This is very interesting from a transit perspective, but would it supply the freight capacity that the Sunnyside option seems to provide?]
Good question. I'd say it does, since the Atlantic Avenue branch crosses the Conrail freight line at East New York. That would make it a bit more convenient to Brooklyn, a bit less convenient to Western Queens than the Sunnyside tunnel.
See the two other responses to your post. In addition, contrary to LIRR management's apparent views, I see the Atlantic Branch as a jumping off point for an extension of LIRR service into lower Manhattan. It makes a lot more sense to me to split the midtown traffic from the downtown traffic at Jamaica instead of running all trains into midtown and then extending the LIRR through Manhattan.
In general, I disagree with the notion that the LIRR is of benefit only to its riders and that those of us who only ride the subway should eagerly abet LIRR's break up. We're all in this together, and a balanced system is what we need.
Yes, I agree with this view generally, and have posted a reply to that effect. I think extending LIRR service through Downtown Brooklyn to the Wall Street area would be an enormous economic development boost for those areas, and NYC generally. It would be interesting to know what the MTA's thoughts on this matter might be. Frankly, it is probably the case that the decision to build the Grand Cetnral access was largely dictated by the political clout of LIRR commuters, particularly under former Senator D'Amato. The LIRR might be just as well served by the Brooklyn alternative, but I think it is too late now to change the scheme.
Hoow about this.. we should live so long to ever see it! A 4 track 2nd ave. subway with the 2 tracks for the LIRR south of 63 st? to Downtown from there?
[Frankly, it is probably the case that the decision to build the Grand Cetnral access was largely dictated by the political clout of LIRR commuters, particularly under former Senator D'Amato.]
Percentage of MTA riders who use City subways and buses: 90
Percentage of MTA capital funds going to City subways and buses: 70
yes and with both arms broken using your teeth might be... The realities I think are as follows. PANYNJ which runs the airports wanted to expand its own empire(read more jobs more managers) and were not willing to enlist enough political muscle to defeat the selfish airline lobby. (We did a little better in the Bay Area--we got the funding BUT the design is completely wrong) As to the total money crunch, just read L. Littlefield's posts-- we just don't spend the capital or operating monies as necessary. The auto/oil industry lobbies have way too much clout. As I have argued previously(and others as well) part of the need for this line is the daily workers at the airport. Thus building a stand alone system neither physically nor farewise integrated, is design sabotage. IMHO the correct options for the service would have started from the following. Either direct integration into the TA or LIRR or at least equipment compatability with IND-BMT standards. Its bad enough having two divisions in the TA which can't cross run, a brand new yet different one just splinters the acquisition market and expands the spare parts inventory costs. These last two are the "structural" economic sabotage which will be there forever as wasted money.
What, may I ask, is "Dead Horse Discipline"? I am not familiar with the phrase, so I don't know what you intend to convey by its use. I am in complete agreement with you that the JFK line SHOULD be compatible with either the LIRR or the BMT/IND standards. I am not certain why it is not, other than that the airlines do not want to spend aviation money on the provision of general public transportation. Airlines want the money spent in ways that will benefit them! This may mean better airport access by transit for PASSENGERS, but it CANNOT mean (from the airlines' perspective) the provision of off-airport transit capacity. From the airlines perspective, diverting PFC money to general transit capacity is tantamount to turning the PFC charge into a general tax, rather than a dedicated fund. That, in a nutshell, is why the idea of a discrete transit system for the airport has been proposed. It is literally the only way that the airlines are convinced that the transit improvement is a dedicated airport improvement, rather than a back-door way to subsidize NYC transit.
While I agree that the PFC money should be used for building a transit spur to JFK and/or LaGuardia, it would probably require an act of Congress, literally, to direct that the money be so used. What do you think the odds are of Congress standing up to the airlines in favor of the users of NYC transit? In case you have any doubt, I think it is very small.
So you've never heard of "beating" a dead horse?
Yes, I have. Just being a bit thick-headed I guess.
Good thoughts; additionally why does NYC have to be without a low-cost rail service into JFK when existing trackage (Howard Beach) is so near? Chicagho invested in several miles of new line to both its airports, it isn't the only one. So why can't NYC move on with it (other than the worthless political reasons you mention==sadly true)
Re: Chicago's rail transit to both airports.
Yes, it's a point of civic pride that this was done, not to mention damn handy when you need to catch an early-evening flight directly from work downtown. But to be fair to New York:
1) The Orange Line to Midway was Chicago's equivalent of the Second Avenue Subway for many years. Transportation plans going back to the 1939 subway plan (if not earlier) called for an Archer Avenue subway ending at Midway. It got built only in the early 1990s, and then not as a subway.
2) Cheap, if not free, right-of-way with few NIMBY problems.
For O'Hare, the old "Met" L to Logan Square had already been extended to Jefferson Park in 1970 by subway, directly under Kimball Street and Milwaukee Avenue as much as possible, but mainly by expressway median. From there to O'Hare, the line was extended in the very early 1980s entirely on expressway median right up to where it ducks underground on the airport property just before its terminal under the airport parking garage. The stations (including vast parking at Cumberland and Rosemont) are on publicly-owned and otherwise unbuildable land in the midst of interchanges and on-off ramps, and even the yards just past Rosemont station are between the inbound and outbound lanes of the airport access road.
For Midway, the line was cobbled together from unused land along (active) rail lines, whose owners were eager to sell otherwise-useless linear plots of land. And the Orange line had very few worries with NIMBYs -- with a few exceptions, the Orange line runs through industrial areas, with freight rail lines and the Sanitary Canal on one side of it and the Stevenson Expressway on the other.
It's a lot easier to get a line built when you don't have large numbers of householders either squawking to their elected officials about "diminished quality of life" (read: THEY will come here on the trains) or holding out their hands for condemnation payments because the line goes through a row of houses.
These are quite valid points. However, the difficult truth is that Chicago has more effective political leadership, as well as a more pliant political atmosphere. Robert Moses and his deeply abusive practices are in some ways at the root of New York's inability to be effective in pursuing public projects. It is strange that New York, which exists as we know it entirely as the historic result of the Erie Canal ( a New York State project), has been rendered so inept at big projects by the poisoned political atmosphere.
Thanks for the thoughts, true of course but still it got done. I think the Northeast has the biggest NIMBY problem; like a one time idea to convert some lightly used LIRR track to act as a rush hour express for IND Queens lines. To use the Brighton for an example I never saw where it caused blight nor heard of kids getting killed as a way of life on a busy 4 track main. But they sure did scream about that when that Montauk Brnanch was it? idea came up.IMHO I don't recall too many back yards between Howard Beach on the A line and Kennedy, not to mention it "ain't" very far. I still consider it a pity that a high priceiride(unless you take a slow bus to the subway first) in often heavy traffic is the only way to JFK. But thanks....
(Just read L. Littlefield's posts-- we just don't spend the capital or operating monies as necessary. The auto/oil industry lobbies have way too much clout).
Just to clarify, the auto/oil industry lobbyists did very well from the 1920s to about 1973. Then again, we were expanding rail at that time as well.
Since then, we haven't done much to improve roads in the New York Area either. The way I would put it is the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY has too much clout. Elsewhere in the U.S., they are still building roads, but they are improving transit too. On the margin, we could use a few road improvements as well as transit improvements. We get little of either, and when we do get them they take too long and cost too much.
Thoughtful comments ... I particularly liked:
"or at least equipment compatability with IND-BMT standards"
Bring back the standards, there are at least a couple of sets still around (yes I know that's NOT what you ment), but this is a railfan site after all.
Mr t__:^)
I'd like to hear an explanation for why the airlines oppose funding for something that will make it *easier* for people to get to the place where they do business. This stance does not make sense to me.
Personally, JFK is my *last* choice if I'm flying from NYC because it's so difficult and expensive to get to from most of the city, compared to LGA or EWR. I'd almost rather go to White Plains or Islip!
In response, I suggest that you see my recent posting in reply to "Dead Horse Discipline".
The airlines are opposed because they are the ones who are collecting the Airport taxes on tickets, and now that they are making money they are so damn greedy. They don t want to pay their employees back for all the non pay raises during the lean times in the late 80s and early 90s. They cut Travel Agents Commissions from 10 pct to 5 pct, and if a group of Travel Agents try to boycot the airline for just one day they threaten to take away their appointments. They pack so many people in a plane, Customer Service is so bad, that when the feds started to make waves, they promised all sorts of reforms, but have not done them yet. and so forth
Under normal circumstances, JFK would be no better than second place for me either - I live in NJ part of the time (NC the rest of the time) and consequently EWR is the closest. But flights to Nevada (where my grandchildren live) or the west coast are significantly cheaper from JFK - $207 for my last round trip, nonstop both ways, from JFK to LAS (Las Vegas) vs. $455 with a change each way from LGA and $680 with a change each way from EWR. And the transit connection isn't bad - Jersey Coast Line to NYP, A train to Howard Beach, and the shuttle to the terminal. Other than adding unnecessary expense, the Airtrain won't make it any worse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is truly damning with faint praise to say that the Airtrain "wont make it any worse", considering the hundreds of millions of dollars (billion?) that is involved in buildinig it. Do you really think that it additional benefit is so very small?
I don't see much additional benefit, at least from the Howard Beach connection. Certainly not enough to be worth an extra five bucks. At most it will save me ten minutes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Airtrain will help people move around the airport, and get from the parking lot to the terminals. Having driven to JFK and flown out, that is a benefit. It will also allow people coming from Midtown to take a cab to Jamaica and the Airtrain to JFK, avoiding the Van Wyck (which is worth avoiding).
The $5.00 feet is inexcusible, however. They want the airtrain to break even so more airport profits will be available for the PATH, but they don't want to charge people to take in from the parking lot. Hence, they overcharge the transit rider -- who is paying the same $3.00 passenger facility charge on the ticket to build it. The fare should be $1.50.
The Airtrain will serve exactly the same clientele as the current free bus, plus a few who will have taken a train to Jamaica. Who's going to switch from a cab to the Airtrain? No one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're forgetting that one of the main reasons that the AirTrain is going to Jamaica has nothing to do with folks from NYC, can you say LONG ISLAND ? I'm not saying that hords of folks from Nassau or Sufolk counties are going to actually use it, just that we seemed to have forgot that it's one of the main reasons that it's going there.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston's right on the Long Island issue. Lots of NYC pols never understood that the goal was to serve Long Island from Jamaica.
As for taking a cab to Jamaica, south of the Kew Gardens interchange three lanes of Van Wyck are all you've got to JFK. It can take an hour to get down that stretch of road, at almost any time. Most New Yorkers don't even bother to use it.
Now if you had the Airtrain to Jamaica, some folks might hop a cab from Midtown, as they do now. But if the Van Wyck were jammed, they could get off the highway, go to Jamaica, and get on the Airtrain there. If the Van Wyck is OK, then on to the airport by cab. This works especially well if baggage can be checked at Jamaica and also travels on the Airtrain (if it's by truck on the Van Wyck it will never get there).
Well, this is a new insight into the exclsuive Jamaica connection. If it is true that the PA has capitulated to the airlines and sold NYC out this cheaply, then I think Giuliani is right when he says NYC should get rid of the PA as airport operator.
[Well, this is a new insight into the exclsuive Jamaica connection. If it is true that the PA has capitulated to the airlines and sold NYC out this cheaply, then I think Giuliani is right when he says NYC should get rid of the PA as airport operator.]
Because of a tradition that 50% of PA proceeds be invested in NY and 50% in NJ and the massive PATH subsidy, the Port Authority is basically a subsidy for NJ. It's hard to see how it's in New York's interest to stay in it.
What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ?
[What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ? ]
Nothing!
Arti
????
By that token, Giuliani should be able to give the PA the boot starting now with NYC getting full control after a couple of years.
I think they could dissolve PA if they really wanted to.
Arti
[What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ?]
I don't know, beyond the fact that NYC can take JFK back when the lease expires in 2012.
[Because of a tradition that 50% of PA proceeds be invested in NY and 50% in NJ and the massive PATH subsidy, the Port Authority is basically a subsidy for NJ. It's hard to see how it's in New York's interest to stay in it.]
None of this bickering over subsidies would be necessary if New Yorkers got rid of their absurd world-ends-at-the-Hudson attitude and started thinking of themselves as part of a region. Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.
[Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity. ]
I don't see that in real life.
Arti
[[Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.]
I don't see that in real life.
Arti]
I was looking at the Census figures today, and growth in the Northeast is pathetic compared to the rest of the country. Some of that has to do with the costs of union labor, but I think most of the blame has to go to the region's petty politicians. If they asked themselves what was right for the region rather than what's politically expedient, we could be competitive again; but we're like a sinking ship where everybody's so busy fighting over pockets of air that nobody bails. Nobody wants to take responsibility for the NYC poor, but everybody wants the tax revenues and jobs from Manhattan's businesses. Everybody wants to subsidize away the other guy's sports stadium, at great loss to themselves. Nobody wants to deal with pork and make taxes competitive.
Just look at what's happening in Nassau County--one of the richest counties in the country, and it's virtually bankrupt.
[If they asked themselves what was right for the region rather than what's politically expedient, we could be competitive again; but we're like a sinking ship where everybody's so busy fighting over pockets of air that nobody bails. ]
But what would change it? Honestly looks pretty hopeless.
Arti
[But what would change it? Honestly looks pretty hopeless.
Arti]
I sure wish I knew. In NY the voters got upset enough to kick out Cuomo, but instead of someone better we got a mediocre governor who seems to favor tepid tax cuts and political handouts. It seems that the structure of NY State's government is designed to keep anything positive from happening. Maybe if we went to one legislative body that could swing between Republican and Democratic control we'd see some improvement.
Meanwhile, the only thing I can think is to spread the word. I've learned a lot about what ails the region since I was here, and I know if others learned what I have we'd see some very different faces in government.
You leave out an awful lot. The areas with heavy growth in this country tend to be out here in the west and in the south, for a number of reasons:
- lots of green fields to bulldoze for development, which will always be cheaper (if you exclude external costs) than redeveloping urban land
- a more car dependent lifestyle. Face it, that's what most people want. Too bad, but true.
- Heavier subsidies to build infrastructure down here. This is the fault of NE politicians who don't focus on infrastructure. The NE is a huge % of the US politician, but has relatively little power in congressional leadership - as has been true for a while. Maybe this is because there are less congressional seats up there that are "safe seats???"
Also, traditionally, military spending has been tilted away from the NE.
- Nicer weather. This is a BIG factor. Of course, that's due to air conditioning, made possible in part with cheap energy, and out here in the west, big federal $$$ to bring water to cities.
So I don't think you can blame it all on NE politicians!
I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.
Back to the topic...As an update, the JFK airtrain construction has passed the Howard Beach station on the Rockaway Line but has not made the bridge to cross the subway tracks yet. Will the cars on the line be automatically operated like at EWR? Who is building them? Also, the guage of the tracks seem to be very narrow--like 2.5'. I think that the capital wasted on the airtrain realy was wasted. Even with a rail link, I'm still taking car service to JFK simply because the A Rackaway line just takes too long and does not stick to schedules well. Especially since I usually fly out in the early morning when the A is infrequent. I believe the airtrain will extend to Jamica, and that too is inconveniet for me. I live in Manhatten!
-Daniel
Do you know anyone who lives in Manhateleven?
[Will the cars on the line be automatically operated like at EWR?]
Yes the will be no operator.
[Who is building them? Also, the guage of the tracks seem to be very narrow--like 2.5'.]
Standard guage, but "light rail" so support structure & rail guage (vs. width of track) would not support heavy subway cars.
Mr t__:^)
[Standard guage, but "light rail" so support structure & rail guage (vs. width of track) would not support heavy subway cars. ]
I remember reading someplace that it could support subway cars, also LRV-s are heavier than subway cars.
Arti
Anyone who wants to see current construction pictures of the JFK light rail line or artist renderings of the station at Howard Beach and dowtown Jamaica should check out www.jfkairtrain.com The complex that will be built at the Howard Beach Station looks totally out of proportion with tiny Coleman Square in Howard Beach. What a waste of dollars!! I wish it was built on the old LIRR Rockaway line. So much more direct!
[Anyone who wants to see current construction pictures of the JFK light rail line or artist renderings of the station at Howard Beach and dowtown Jamaica should check out www.jfkairtrain.com The complex that will be built at the Howard Beach Station looks totally out of proportion with tiny Coleman Square in Howard Beach. What a waste of dollars!! I wish it was built on the old LIRR Rockaway line. So much more direct!]
Gets my vote for biggest boondoggle since the Tweed Courthouse.
[I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.]
I agree that NYC is no longer suited as a large-scale manufacturing center, but I don't think that's really apropos. The factory regions in upstate New York are dying, and land costs aren't a constraint there. And Manhattan would attract more of the high end businesses it traditionally has if it weren't taxed insanely.
[I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.]
I agree that NYC is no longer suited as a large-scale manufacturing center, but I don't think that's really apropos. The factory regions in upstate New York are dying, and land costs aren't a constraint there. And Manhattan would attract more high end businesses if it weren't taxed insanely.
[You leave out an awful lot. The areas with heavy growth in this country tend to be out here in the west and in the south, for a number of reasons:
- lots of green fields to bulldoze for development, which will always be cheaper (if you exclude external costs) than redeveloping urban land
- a more car dependent lifestyle. Face it, that's what most people want. Too bad, but true.
- Heavier subsidies to build infrastructure down here. This is the fault of NE politicians who don't focus on infrastructure. The NE is a huge % of the US politician, but has relatively little power in congressional leadership - as has been true for a while. Maybe this is because there are less congressional seats up there that are "safe seats???"
Also, traditionally, military spending has been tilted away from the NE.
- Nicer weather. This is a BIG factor. Of course, that's due to air conditioning, made possible in part with cheap energy, and out here in the west, big federal $$$ to bring water to cities.
So I don't think you can blame it all on NE politicians!]
All? No. But it also doesn't surprise me that NY State has the highest taxes in the continental US and the lowest growth. Yes, Congress funnels $2000 more to a rural resident than an urban one, and that money tends to go down south and out west. But that's not enough to explain what's happened here. Businesses care about, in descending order, costs, costs, and costs. NYS has plenty of land and cheap labor. I don't know how much of what's happened has to do with the factors you mention and others, but I do no this--no cost sensistive business is going to locate to New York State, and that includes most manufacturers. They're leaving in droves, driven out by insanely uncompetitive taxes and fees.
[None of this bickering over subsidies would be necessary if New Yorkers got rid of their absurd world-ends-at-the-Hudson attitude and started thinking of themselves as part of a region. Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.]
I agree up to a point, which is that it would have to happen on *both* sides of the river. As far as I can tell NY has been more generous with NJ than the other way around; for example, Governor Cuomo gave PATH commuters the very generous WTC revenues, and now Gov. Whitman won't allow the PA to raise the fare. Other MJ actions have been even worse--such as when they blocked the one seat Airtrain and their current prohbition of an extension of the N to the terminals at LGA, because they didn't want to increase competition for Newark.
Until the politicians start doing what's right rather than what's politically expedient, it seems to me they should work out an objective formula based on who does the paying and who does the using; that way the PA would be free to avoid the political BS and just build what it can afford from within its revenue base.
[re commonality of interests between NY and NJ]
[I agree up to a point, which is that it would have to happen on *both* sides of the river. As far as I can tell NY has been more generous with NJ than the other way around; for example, Governor Cuomo gave PATH commuters the very generous WTC revenues, and now Gov. Whitman won't allow the PA to raise the fare.]
My reaction is, big deal. If we think of New York and New Jersey as identical component parts of the *same entity*, it makes no difference which side is more generous with the other.
This is essentially a dishonest answer, because NYC has not consented to having a disproportionate share of the revenues of the PA go to NJ. Such a redistribution means that NY and New Yorkers pay more and get less. When the PA was established, it was thought that both sides would share equally in the benefits. If it is true that NJ has gone out of its way to use the PA to benefit itself, and to hurt NY interests, then this is a betrayal of the original, somewhat idealistic, intent. If we are to think of the region as a whole, then why shouldn't NJ get back only those revenues that it generates? The PA was never intended to be a vehicle for redistributing wealth on a substantial scale from NY to NJ in the name of "regional" benefit.
In fact, the entire discussion of regional benefit has been largely dishonest, since there has been little discussion of developing the NY side of the port or other NYC based development ideas. The PA has always refused to engage in NYC development, and has gotten away with this because of the usual schisms between NYC and NYS (since NYS controls its share of the PA, not NYC.
Both NY airports were developed by the City of New York, not the PA. In fact, the PA has not engaged in a single important economic development effort in HYC, and uses the WTC to subsidize itself.
NJ has been more focused politically than NY, and has used the situation to its advantage. In the game of interstate warfare (economic development), this is perfectly understandable and NY has no one to blame but itself. However, it is simply not true to say that there is no inequity or wrongfulness about this neglect of NY to benefit NJ. Nor it is at all illegitimate for NY politicos finally to demand that the PA pay more attention to the NY side.
The PA exists in a strange netherworld where NYS politicos get to control a lot of power and patronage controlled by the PA, despite the fact that the NYC airports, the major generator of revenue, were developed by NYC.
Chicago developed and still controls its airports as a division of City government. They are tremendous assets for the City and the region, and are generally regarded as the best run airports in the nation. It is difficult to overstate the central importance of airport access and availability of flights in creating a favorable business climate. Atlanta as we now know it exists solely because of its tremendous success at developing itself as a world airport city. Ditto for the emergence of Dallas/Fort Worth, and Denver, Pittsburgh, and others are all trying hard.
NYC should do all it can to regain control of the wasting assets of JFK and LaGuardia before it finds that it has lost its place as the main gateway to Europe in favor of Newark. To maintain that it does not matter because the region as a whole will benefit begs the question of why that rationale always means the NJ gets more and NY gets less.
[This is essentially a dishonest answer, because NYC has not consented to having a disproportionate share of the revenues of the PA go to NJ. Such a redistribution means that NY and New Yorkers pay more and get less. When the PA was established, it was thought that both sides would share equally in the benefits. If it is true that NJ has gone out of its way to use the PA to benefit itself, and to hurt NY interests, then this is a betrayal of the original, somewhat idealistic, intent. If we are to think of the region as a whole, then why shouldn't NJ get back only those revenues that it generates?
The PA was never intended to be a vehicle for redistributing wealth on a substantial scale from NY to NJ in the name of "regional" benefit.]
In an ideal world, the flow of benefits or money from New York to New Jersey should be utterly irrelevant because both areas are parts of the same region. New Yorkers have got to stop their parochial way of thinking. Wake up, the world DOES NOT end at the Hudson. For Christ's sakes, New Yorkers think they're so cosmopolitan and sophisticated, while in reality they're among the most narrow minded country bumpkins anywhere in the nation.
City-states were fine in ancient Greece, but not in the United States today. As far as I am concerned, there is but one region - the New York metropolitan area - and from an economic and political standpoint it should make no difference whatsoever where in the region a particular development or facility happens to be located.
[In fact, the entire discussion of regional benefit has been largely dishonest, since there has been little discussion of developing the NY side of the port or other NYC based development ideas. The PA has always refused to engage in NYC development, and has gotten away with this because of the usual schisms between NYC and NYS (since NYS controls its share of the PA, not NYC.]
Give the people at the Port Authority more credit. They know full well that even the simplest public works project in NYC will be a [deleted]-up of enormous proportions. How else can you describe a city in which it takes several months to fix an subway station escalator, three years to repave a street, fourteen years to build a public school, and 75 years and counting to dig a subway tunnel?
[Both NY airports were developed by the City of New York, not the PA. In fact, the PA has not engaged in a single important economic development effort in NYC, and uses the WTC to subsidize itself.]
Once again, the PA knows that any project in the city will be a disaster.
[NJ has been more focused politically than NY, and has used the situation to its advantage. In the game of interstate warfare (economic development), this is perfectly understandable and NY has no
one to blame but itself. However, it is simply not true to say that there is no inequity or wrongfulness about this neglect of NY to benefit NJ. Nor it is at all illegitimate for NY politicos finally to demand that the PA pay more attention to the NY side.]
Maybe if these NY politicos were able to function on a level greater than that of a person with an I.Q. score of 65, the PA *would* pay more attention.
[The PA exists in a strange netherworld where NYS politicos get to control a lot of power and patronage controlled by the PA, despite the fact that the NYC airports, the major generator of revenue, were developed by NYC.]
Sure they were developed by the city - decades ago. Big [deleted] deal. If the city were a person, with a similar competency level, he'd be unable to wipe himself without assistance.
Chicago developed and still controls its airports as a division of City government. They are
tremendous assets for the City and the region, and are generally regarded as the best run airports in
the nation. It is difficult to overstate the central importance of airport access and availability of flights
in creating a favorable business climate. Atlanta as we now know it exists solely because of its
tremendous success at developing itself as a world airport city. Ditto for the emergence of
Dallas/Fort Worth, and Denver, Pittsburgh, and others are all trying hard.
NYC should do all it can to regain control of the wasting assets of JFK and LaGuardia before it
finds that it has lost its place as the main gateway to Europe in favor of Newark. To maintain that it
does not matter because the region as a whole will benefit begs the question of why that rationale
always means the NJ gets more and NY gets less.
Well, your response really speaks for itself. Apparently you think that NY has inadvertently entered into a suicide pact by participating in the PA, and that it has no right to extricate itself now that it sees its error. Fortunately, NY has the right to get out. But I agree with your assessment that NY might not have the political competence to exercise its right.
By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.
[Well, your response really speaks for itself. Apparently you think that NY has inadvertently entered into a suicide pact by participating in the PA, and that it has no right to extricate itself now that it sees its error. Fortunately, NY has the right to get out. But I agree with your assessment that NY might not have the political competence to exercise its right.]
Whether New York gets a good deal out of the Port Authority is the sort of question that could be argued from now until Doomsday without an answer. For every point, there's a counterpoint, and so on. But I couldn't care less. As I've stated, I think almost exclusively in regional rather than local terms. Unfortnately, most New Yorkers, especially the Manhattan elites whose opinions are those which count, seem to be genetically incapable of regional thinking. They'll come to regret that parochial outlook, mark my words.
[By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.]
My suspicion - a strong suspicion - is that most people elsewhere in the country who are at all familiar with NYC politics have an attitude that's a synthesis of scorn, pity and amusement. They must wonder how the city can squander its advantages and set itself on the road to absolute ruin, while at the same time its residents regard the city as the zenith of human civilization.
Well, we have found something to agree upon. I very much agree that the regional interests of the NY/NJ area should be of concern to NY as well as NJ. I just don't see why NY should be called upon to subsidize NJ.
I also agree with some of your perception of Manhattan-centered NY politics. The working people of the "outer boroughs" need a city government that pays more attention to the creation of jobs that blue-collar workers can participate in. The fact that the largest percentage of New Yorkers in modern times are foreign born makes the creation of these jobs all the more important. Recent imigrants need entry level jobs. It is for precisely those same reasons that I am critical of the PA for not trying harder to create such jobs in NY so that the immigrant and welfare communities will have the resulting job opportunities.
By the way, if the PA were to support building the PATH through to NY to give these immigrant and poor New Yorkers access to the NJ jobs the PA is busy creating, then I would agree that it was pursuing a fairer regional approach to economic development.
"The fact that the largest percentage of New Yorkers in modern times are foreign born makes the creation of these jobs all the more important."
The United States is the only country that produces educated persons?
Hardly.
[Whether New York gets a good deal out of the Port Authority is the sort of question that could be argued from now until Doomsday without an answer. For every point, there's a counterpoint, and so on. But I couldn't care less. As I've stated, I think almost exclusively in regional rather than local terms. Unfortnately, most New Yorkers, especially the Manhattan elites whose opinions are those which count, seem to be genetically incapable of regional thinking. They'll come to regret that parochial outlook, mark my words.
My suspicion - a strong suspicion - is that most people elsewhere in the country who are at all familiar with NYC politics have an attitude that's a synthesis of scorn, pity and amusement. They must wonder how the city can squander its advantages and set itself on the road to absolute ruin, while at the same time its residents regard the city as the zenith of human civilization.]
You keep blaming the City. But what the Hell is the City supposed to do? The schools are controlled by the State. The MTA is controlled by the State. The airports are controlled by both states. State disbursement formulas favor the suburbs over the City. Federal disbursement formulas do the same. We're paying our teachers less than anybody else. We're paying our cops less. We're paying our transit workers less. If the money were going to something that would benefit the region, it might not be a problem. But that's not what's happening. it's going to local upstate governemnts that spends 20-30% more than the national average for cops who sit around all day eating donuts. To LIRR and PATH conductors who earn far more than their equivalents in NYC transit. To places like Nassau County, which in spite of living off the City's revenues and being one of the country's richest counties is bankrupt because of years of corrupt politics. Does it somehow benefit the region to spend only 70% of the MTA's capital funds on 90% of the MTA's riders? Or to build up Newark Airport and let JFK die? It seems to me that you're talking just the sort of talk that you excoriate. We should be spending money where the need is, on the basis of what benefits the region, and we aren't.
I too am an ex-New Yorker; when I left I had enough of big city problems so have lived in cow towns ever since. But I consider Chicago my adopted city (only coincidental that my dad was from Chicago, I never really knew him.) and always enjoy visiting. The el, excuse me L (which is what th e "l" at the end of my handle means,is my main drawing card, but second id the people. Some may think otherwise but I've always appreciated the friendliness of Chicagoans compared to a lot of other big cities. But you're right, about NYC government; Chicago didn't fall into the name "the city that works" by accident, they earned it.
[By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.]
Perceptions don't always equal reality when it comes to Chicago. Many people probably consider it to be the prime example of bad politics, with crooked ward bosses, dead people voting, and so on. Whatever the case may have been in the past, Chicago now embodies good government, while NYC is a horror pit.
Perceptions don't always equal reality when it comes to Chicago. Many people probably consider it to be the prime example of bad politics, with crooked ward bosses, dead people voting, and so on. Whatever the case may have been in the past, Chicago now embodies good government, while NYC is a horror pit.
Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My poly sci professor in college always felt the Chicago system was better in responding to the needs of the citizens than the civil service "good government" system New York put in place following the Seabury investigations and the arrival of LaGuardia as mayor in the 1930s. He basically said the further away you take government from a one-on-one relationship between the people of a neighborhood and their local ward leader, councilman or whatever, the less resposive government becomes. To a civil service rep, you're no longer a person with a face and a vote in November, you're Case No. 436-7905-2187-A and the future of their job doesn't matter whether on not your problem is completely resolved.
If everybody's job was directly on the line if the Second Avenue Subway didn't get built and the current elected officials were throw out of office, it would get built if there were more votes to be gained from satisfied riders than lost from the NIMBY groups.
[My poly sci professor in college always felt the Chicago system was better in responding to the needs of the citizens than the civil service "good government" system New York put in place following the Seabury investigations and the arrival of LaGuardia as mayor in the 1930s. He basically said the further away you take government from a one-on-one relationship between the people of a neighborhood and their local ward leader, councilman or whatever, the less resposive government becomes. To a civil service rep, you're no longer a person with a face and a vote in November, you're Case No. 436-7905-2187-A and the future of their job doesn't matter whether on not your problem is completely resolved.]
I think you're right.e
Nothing important but you might look up my message of May l5 at l2;56;05. It's not my first pro-Chicago comment on this site. I've mentioned in others that politics or not things get done there. I Feltsafe in most of Chicago in the 70's when New York was an atmosphere of fear, there was virtually no graffitti on CTA when NYC was a mess of it. I'd take Richard Daley [father or son] for a lifetime over 2 years of John Lindsay or some of the other deadbeat NYC mayors. On the plus side NYC is a lot cleaner now and I feel safe when I visit compared to what I lived with in the 70's.
[On the plus side NYC is a lot cleaner now and I feel safe when I visit compared to what I lived with in the 70's.]
I came back to NYC a couple of years ago after living in San Francisco, and I feel *much* safer here. SF was like the City before Giuliani.
[Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David]
I think it worked in New York, too. The City boomed under Tammany Hall. Cronies got rich, but the subways got built.
I think New York's problems have to be seen in a different perspective:
-The NYC and NY State developed a huge welfare system when they were the richest and most populous area of the country. But beginning in the sixties, as the poor migrated in vast numbers from rural areas to the City, the region's generous welfare policies--and that includes "white welfare" to the unions and politicians, not just welfare for the poor--began to strangle it. High taxes and poor services drove out prosperous residents and businesses. The City reached a point where any increase in taxes actually reduced the tax base, and that led to bankruptcy.
-The constitutional prejudice against urban areas hurts cities when it comes to funding. Subsidies for the South and West, enacted by a generous Northeast at the height of its prosperity, mean that money continues to flow away from the region. The South gained political power, and when its turn to control things had come, did not reciprocate.
-Welfare-related violence and busing also drove out middle class residents, reducing the City's tax base.
-These phenomena were apparent in many American cities. The ones that did and do best were the southern cities, which offer little in the way of welfare benefits. But NYC actually did better than most older cities--look at Newark or Detroit. Even LA, while it prospered for a awhile, eventually went downhill--and like other cities, suffered from riots which New York City managed to avoid, in part because the infamous Mayor Lindsay walked the streets of Harlem in his shirtsleeves when things got hot.
-NYC suffered a bad rap because of the bankruptcy--caused by a combination of the City's odious unions and welfare policies--and because as the country's largest City, it got the lion's share of bad publicity. But even at its worst, it was only #6 in the national crime statistics, and most of that crime was committed within the ghetto.
-NY State, like other states, dumped its mental patients on the City. This created the problem of homelessness--once bums became acceptable, junkies and alcoholics moved out of their traditional haunts and began to engage in behaviors that would have been unacceptable a few years previously.
-Idiotic court decisions really hurt the City. It became impossible to control porn shops, loiterers, beggars, subway musicians, wandering madmen, etc. That led to a huge reduction in the quality of life, and contributed to the exodus of businesses and middle class residents.
-The City ceded control of many important functions to the corrupt, incompetent, and out-of-touch State government during the fiscal crisis, and still doesn't control its own schools or transportation. The result has been moderately disasterous.
-After the collapse of the hapless Beame administration, much of the damage that did occur to the City has been reversed during the Koch, Dinkins, and Giuliani administrations. But they're limited in what they can do by the State and the Feds. The City operates under all sorts of odious court and government mandates. If the City so much as keeps a homeless family waiting in an office overnight, it gets fined. Money that should educate children goes to dribblers in special education classes. Unlike any other City, NYC has to provide apartments at luxury prices for junkies and madmen. Etc., etc.
-At the same time, the City has to be blamed for maintaining and encouraging politically popular pork like rent control.
So......a Daley type person cn be the Robert Moses for transit!
[So......a Daley type person cn be the Robert Moses for transit!]
Me, me, me. No, make me Mayor. Wow, would I ever be a one term mayor--if I wasn't assassinated first.
The Late Mayor's Platform
Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead.
Dump all the muncipal unions.
Secede from New York State.
Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing.
End rent control.
End the senior citizen rent increase exemption.
End the reduced fare program for the elderly.
Abolish home care for the elderly.
Outlaw social workers.
End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.
End all but emergency services to drug addicts.
Offer drug treatment on demand.
Require drug treatment for addicts who commit a crime or are committed.
Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.
Eliminate open admissions.
End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.
Require a drug and alcohol test for emergency shelter.
Cut Medicaid to the national average.
Expand the subway.
Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.
Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.
Build new highways and tunnels.
Abolish borough presidents.
Get the mob out of construction.
Arrest subway musicians and beggars.
Arrest people who sleep, pee in public places, or are intoxicated.
Commit the insane.
Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.
Build parks on the river.
Build the world's tallest building.
Rebuild Penn Station.
Told you I'd be a one term mayor!
Here's how my ideas, if I suddenly wielded unlimited powers, would match up with yours:
[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead.]
Me too.
[Dump all the muncipal unions.]
Same here.
[Secede from New York State.]
I'd try to make a new state out of the NYC metro area, which would include parts of NJ and Connecticut.
[Sell the muncipal hospitals.]
I'd just as soon close most of them.
[Sell public housing.
End rent control.
End the senior citizen rent increase exemption.
End the reduced fare program for the elderly.]
I'll go along with all of these.
[Abolish home care for the elderly.]
Dunno ... home care sometimes is more cost-effective than nursing home care.
[Outlaw social workers.]
Absolutely. Could we add personal-injury lawyers to the list?
[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.]
I disagree on this one, immigrants (legal or otherwise) probably contribute more in taxes than they take in services. And without immigration, NYC would have a shrinking population a la Detroit or Philadelphia.
[End all but emergency services to drug addicts.
Offer drug treatment on demand.
Require drug treatment for addicts who commit a crime or are committed.]
I agree here too.
[Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.]
Good idea, though it would be no panacea.
[Eliminate open admissions.]
And while we're at it, I'd vastly downsize the CUNY system.
[End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.]
Good ideas all, but we'd also have to get rid of the teacher's union.
[Require a drug and alcohol test for emergency shelter.
Cut Medicaid to the national average.]
And how!
[Expand the subway.]
You'd better believe it!
[Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.]
Maybe - I'm still not convinced.
[Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.]
No. Doing so would make NYC less attractive to business.
[Build new highways and tunnels.]
To some extent, yes.
[Abolish borough presidents.]
I can't figure out why we still have them.
[Get the mob out of construction.]
That's been happening already.
[Arrest subway musicians and beggars.]
Beggars, yes, as well as the people who give them money. I'd allow some musicians, within limits.
[Arrest people who sleep, pee in public places, or are intoxicated.
Commit the insane.]
Absolutely.
[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.]
I disagree on this one.
[Build parks on the river.
Build the world's tallest building.]
Yes, and yes.
[Rebuild Penn Station.]
I disagree, we can get by without it.
[[Here's how my ideas, if I suddenly wielded unlimited powers, would match up with yours:
[Secede from New York State.]
I'd try to make a new state out of the NYC metro area, which would include parts of NJ and Connecticut.]
You're right, that's even better.
[[Sell the muncipal hospitals.]
I'd just as soon close most of them.]
I shouldn't have said "sell"--who would buy them? I'd just make them nonprofits and close any that aren't needed.
[[Abolish home care for the elderly.]
Dunno ... home care sometimes is more cost-effective than nursing home care.]
True, and the sad thing is that the home care workers themselves aren't paid squat--the money goes to poverty pimps. The problem as I see it is that the program discourages people from taking care of their elderly parents themselves. And elderly people are extremely reluctant to go into nursing homes--most die within a year of entering--but none of that reluctance applies to free nursing care!
So I'd be delighted to keep it, *if* someone could figure out a way to eliminate the perverse incentives.
[[Outlaw social workers.]
Absolutely. Could we add personal-injury lawyers to the list?]
You bet!
[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.]
I disagree on this one, immigrants (legal or otherwise) probably contribute more in taxes than they take in services. And without immigration, NYC would have a shrinking population a la Detroit or Philadelphia.]
I wonder. Illegal immigrants are part of the subterranean economy, and probably don't contribute income taxes. They don't vote, and that hurts us. Then too, people bring their superannuated parents here. Mostly, I'm reluctant to sanction lawbreaking, particularly since illegal (as opposed to legal) immigration creates second class citizens. At the very least, I think I'd have to have better figures.
[[Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.]
Good idea, though it would be no panacea.]
No, but I'm perfectly content if people want to move elsewhere because the weather's nicer or there's more space or what have you. It's the shooting ourselves in the regional foot business that bothers me.
[[Eliminate open admissions.]
And while we're at it, I'd vastly downsize the CUNY system.]
I agree. It should grant real four year degrees to real students the way it used to; I'm all in favor of remediation for those who are motivated, but why pay a PhD to do what should be done through the high schools?
I was going to say give CUNY to the state, but then we already did that. Does the City contribute to CUNY? I gather it maintains some control. Either way, it strikes me as nonsense for the City to be running a university, just as it strikes me as nonsense for the State to be running local schools.
[[End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.]
Good ideas all, but we'd also have to get rid of the teacher's union.]
Covered!
Also, I forgot about abolishing tenure--and raising teachers' salaries to make them competitive.
[[Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.]
Maybe - I'm still not convinced.]
I didn't know you weren't
[[Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.]
No. Doing so would make NYC less attractive to business.]
That's always a concern. But we already do charge drivers, or at least the PA does; I'd simply close the loopholes in the system. And I wouldn't send the money to general revenues--I'd use it to build a transportation infrastructure so good it would become a regional asset. People would stop at the closest park and ride facility and take the train in not just because it was cheaper, but because it was faster, more convenient, and more comfortable than threading through rush hour traffic.
[[Abolish borough presidents.]
I can't figure out why we still have them.]
Patronage, I think.
[[Get the mob out of construction.]
That's been happening already.]
Has it? That's good news. Do they still have to hire imaginary Teamsters?
[[Arrest subway musicians and beggars.]
Beggars, yes, as well as the people who give them money. I'd allow some musicians, within limits.]
LOL, how about soundproofing?
{[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.]
I disagree on this one.}]
I thought it would be controversial. But I'm not sure I understand why. AIDS can't be cured, but it can be prevented easily enough--and we've doomed millions to death because we've refused to do that.
[[Rebuild Penn Station.]
I disagree, we can get by without it. ]]
Awe, that's my favorite proposal!
[Illegal immigrants are part of the subterranean economy, and probably don't contribute income taxes. They don't vote, and that hurts us]
Legal immigrants cannot vote either, you have to US citizen.
Arti
[Legal immigrants cannot vote either, you have to US citizen.]
Good point. I was thinking of naturalized citizens. But I still feel uncomfortable about illegals. Because they have to be paid off the books, they're regularly exploited. Someone who's here legally can go to the state if his boss doesn't pay him--not an illegal. That's not just a problem for the aliens, who aren't supposed to be here in the first place, but for American citizens and legal immigrants who get shafted because businesses find it more economical to abuse the illegals.
[That's not just a problem for the aliens, who aren't supposed to be here in the first place, but for American citizens and legal immigrants who get shafted because businesses find it more economical to abuse the illegals]
Another cathegory is H1 legal non-permanent residents, they cannot easily change their jobs thus making them very dependent of the employer. BTW regarding illegals there's a proposal for another amnesty for those here before 1986.
Arti
[Another cathegory is H1 legal non-permanent residents, they cannot easily change their jobs thus making them very dependent of the employer. BTW regarding illegals there's a proposal for another amnesty for those here before 1986.]
Talk about perverse incentives! Seems to me they should just increase the quotas and have a genuine crackdown on illegal immigration.
But then there are those who would argue that it's necessary to have a subclass of low wage citizens so that the country can compete.
Similar amnesty was declared on 1986, I think you had to be here for at least 15 years but I'm not sure. One way to look at it is that these people are de facto naturalized and if they are legalized they will start paying taxes.
Arti
When illegals are given an amnesty, are they immediately eligible for applying for citizenship, or must they wait five years after amnesty?
They'll get the "Greencard" first, then they have to wait for 5 years after what they can apply for citizenship.That's how it worked last time.
Arti
Actually according to the law only permanent residents (greencard holders) can become naturalized citizens.
Arti
You have a point.
This is really confusing.
Can you use <BLOCKQUOTE> to start your quotes instead of a [ and </BLOCKQUOTE> to end them?
I suppose so. It's a lot of typing (or pasting), though. Some people used to use italics, but again, that's clumsy when you have to type in the tags.
Is there message board software that quotes prior messages with arrows like Usenet or email? I think it would make this board much easier to use for posters and readers alike.
Most of us don't quote the prior messages, though, because it means that much more to scroll through and additional download time (not a problem for me, but it is for a lot of folks). I will only quote if it is necessary to make the point, or to clarify which part of a long message I am responding to.
When it is necessary to quote, the italic option is (to me at least) the most readily identifiable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Most of us don't quote the prior messages, though, because it means that much more to scroll through and additional download time (not a problem for me, but it is for a lot of folks). I will only quote if it is necessary to make the point, or to clarify which part of a long message I am responding to.
When it is necessary to quote, the italic option is (to me at least) the most readily identifiable.]
True. But I always find myself going back and looking at the prior message, which takes even more time.
It's actually an option, to include the message being replied to into the reply box, but it's an all or none thing. I fear most people would not bother to erase the material that they were not replying to.
Sofar I find this format to be the best.
Arti
[It's actually an option, to include the message being replied to into the reply box, but it's an all or none thing. I fear most people would not bother to erase the material that they were not replying to.]
I'm not sure. Technically, quoting isn't all or nothing on Usenet, because it can be turned off in a newsreader, but in practice almost everybody has it turned on and there are complaints when somebody doesn't. It seems to work well enough there, though there are always a few who don't erase old stuff and others who misattribute quotes.
Maybe the thing to do is to try it and see if everybody likes it?
I get on a board that uses a shareware program that copies each post to the reply box. It gets really irritating to read through lines of prior message text (set off with :) because the replyers didn't bother to delete the copied text in the reply box. On the whole, it's a pain.
The shareware BBS software has one other problem. It gets VERY unstable if the message load gets over 2500. Three boards that I frequent that use it have crashed at least three times in two years, with the resulting loss of the posts. One board shut down completely, because the Webmaster got tired of rebuilding the Board after the crashes. The site is still running, but the BBS is gone.
I like what Dave has here. It's stable,and can carry some heavy post loads. Dave has tweaked the software a bit to improve the performance.
And unlike USENET, where you have different servers running at different rates, here everything is one. Messages are available immediately (with reloading of course), but on USENET, you could have a huge thread start in one day, then a week later you finally see the original message.
And messages on most USENET servers tend to expire faster.
[And unlike USENET, where you have different servers running at different rates, here everything is one. Messages are available immediately (with reloading of course), but on USENET, you could have a huge thread start in one day, then a week later you finally see the original message.
And messages on most USENET servers tend to expire faster.]
True, though the better servers (Mindspring, some of the pay services) don't really suffer from these problems. The main thing I like about Usenet is that it's much faster--I can automatically download all the messages in a group when I get the headers, so I can read through them without a wait. Also, I like having the groups and message headers on the left while the messages are on the right.
It isn't that clumsy. While <BLOCKQUOTE> is long (they should have let it be abbreviated to BQ), italicizing is only 3 or 4 chars long. I can understand having to hit SHIFT for the < and > though, but don't we do it with names, the beginnings of sentences and I anyway?
[It isn't that clumsy. While is long (they should have let it be abbreviated to BQ), italicizing is only 3 or 4 chars long. I can understand having to hit SHIFT for the < and > though, but don't we do it with names, the beginnings of sentences and I anyway?]
True, but it's still more typing, and you have to think about it . . .
And see, when you copied, you didn't replace < with < and > with > so it takes <BLOCKQUOTE> literally!
Oops
Among the many responses is one that says the mob influence in the construction trades has been declining. Is this really the case? If so, what is the story behind it? Is this Giuliani's accomplishment?
Changing economy :-) ((
Arti
[Among the many responses is one that says the mob influence in the construction trades has been declining. Is this really the case? If so, what is the story behind it? Is this Giuliani's accomplishment?]
Supposedly there is less mob influence than in years past. I don't know that for sure, it's just what I've heard.
Most likely, the general decline in the mob's strength is more significant than any of the mayor's efforts.
Sounds like a deal.. I've said myself if I were ever elected to such a job I'd probably be assassinated too. I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things; not all. Was glad to see vreate REAL jobs. Something that offers mopre than a sub-welfare living standard. But there's a fly in the ointment: the troublemakers with nothing else to do would get their attorneys and drag it all into federal court and the@#$!%^&* would undo all the good. Have you read BOSS (meaning Richard Daley Sr) by the late great Mike Royko? If you can find a copy its great. Stick with it.. what ticket will you be on? Ha Ha.
[Sounds like a deal.. I've said myself if I were ever elected to such a job I'd probably be assassinated too. I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things; not all. Was glad to see vreate REAL jobs. Something that offers mopre than a sub-welfare living standard. But there's a fly in the ointment: the troublemakers with nothing else to do would get their attorneys and drag it all into federal court and the@#$!%^&* would undo all the good. Have you read BOSS (meaning Richard Daley Sr) by the late great Mike Royko? If you can find a copy its great. Stick with it.. what ticket will you be on? Ha Ha.]
Funny, I'm not sure whether people would call me an arch-conservative-fascist (wants to close public housing) or lefto-liberal-commie (wants to eliminate poverty by giving everybody jobs with living wages). How about the Dead Mayor's Party, since that's what I'd be after everyone from elderly Jewish ladies to gay Rastafarians stormed City Hall?
Maybe NYC national-socialist. (It's a joke :-)
Arti
Government doesn't create real jobs, businesses create real jobs, and businesses refuse to hire Afro-Americans if they can help it.
One other criticism. NYC can't cut taxes to the national average, let alone the sunbelt, without accepting public services with far lower spending than elsewhere -- as a result of federal funding formulas.
Remember also that much of the nation does not have subways, professional fire departments, public water and sewer, public trash collection, local parks (upstate gets state parks), local police (rural areas get state police and just a few local cops), etc. You get the picture.
We ought to get what we pay for, but there are certain things a city has to have. In exchange, we have cost cutting economies of scale -- which the federal government offsets with subsidies for rural areas. Ie. rural roads, electrification, small city air service deliveries, rural free postal delivery, and (once Al Gore OR George Bush gets in) rural internet subsidies to help move the new media industry out of NYC.
[Government doesn't create real jobs, businesses create real jobs, and businesses refuse to hire Afro-Americans if they can help it.]
That may have been true at one time, but it's very seldom the case anymore. Most private businesses choose employees according to their qualifications and potential. Race and ethnicity aren't in the mix. Yes, there are exceptions, but most of them are notable because of their rarity.
[That may have been true at one time, but it's very seldom the case anymore. Most private businesses choose employees according to their qualifications and potential. Race and ethnicity aren't in the mix. Yes, there are exceptions, but most of them are notable because of their rarity.]
A few years back my brother worked for a temporary agency. When he tried to get a job for a black secretary whose qualifications were in every way equal to her white equivalents, no one would accept her. It turns out that businesses use the temp agencies to avoid hiring black secretaries. The main reason--attitude problems, which aren't just peculiar to poor black residents but to ghetto residents in general as things now stand. I've seen many examples myself. OK, rant about to begin:
THE FUCKING SCHOOLS HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS FOR BEHAVIOR FOR THESE KIDS. Kids can talk back, act out, and dress like fools, and the teachers aren't allowed to punish them. That creates a situation in which teachers and administrators become nasty themselves. When these kids grow up and enter the workforce, they're apt to be sullen, slow workers with attitudes, who talk back to their bosses and insult customers. They go nowhere and don't understand why, or blame it on the boss or racism.
Businesses don't want to hire them, but since discrimination is illegal it's hard to avoid. My guess is that that's one of the things that makes them reluctant to locate in the City--but it's something they won't ever say, because they're sensitive to accusations of racism and to the legal ramifications.
Whether Black people deserve to be hired or not, and deserve equal pay or not, is a subject for debate, but the initial fact is indisputable.
In 1980, and in 1990, the average white high school dropout earned more than the average Black or Latino high school graduate. The average White high school graduate earned more than average Black or Latino high school graduate. (census, public use microdata sample run).
This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact.
[Whether Black people deserve to be hired or not, and deserve equal pay or not, is a subject for debate, but the initial fact is indisputable.
In 1980, and in 1990, the average white high school dropout earned more than the average Black or Latino high school graduate. The average White high school graduate earned more than average Black or Latino high school graduate. (census, public use microdata sample run).
This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact.]
I don't want to give the impression that I'm overlooking or minimizing the history of out-and-out discrimination against black (or Latin-American or Chinese or Jewish or Female) Americans. But the issues are a good deal more complex than we typically acknowledge. Asians suffer at least as much discrimination as Hispanics, but they do better. Puerto Ricans are near the bottom of the economic heap in New York City, but in the rest of the country they've done extremely well.
A high school diploma really means nothing if you're rude to customers or talk back to your boss. Every time I leave the City I'm struck by the difference in attitude, work ethic, and capability between the people at the checkout counters at the supermarket. It's soemthing that goes way beyond traditional New York City gruffness. You could almost map American social trends by doing a survey of checkout counters.
I think this is an issue that gets buried in political correctness. A little shouting match "Business won't hire Blacks or open in Black neighborhoods!" vs. "Blacks don't work as hard and disrespect the boss!" might clear the air. Ignoring the issues ensure they will never go away. No business is willing to admit it tries to avoid hiring Afro-Americans (they still want them as customers), so they never say why.
[I think this is an issue that gets buried in political correctness. A little shouting match "Business won't hire Blacks or open in Black neighborhoods!" vs. "Blacks don't work as hard and disrespect the boss!" might clear the air. Ignoring the issues ensure they will never go away. No business is willing to admit it tries to avoid hiring Afro-Americans (they still want them as customers), so they never say why.]
Not to mention legal liability.
It won't even be discussed here on Subtalk, which is surprising the way the post and insults fly whenever race is even on the margin.
I've learned that subjects that don't quite fit anyone's ideology and self-interest seldom appear in public discourse.
You could almost map American social trends by doing a survey of checkout counters.
Tonight was a good example. I was in a grocery store in a neighboring town - not a store I usually shop at, but I was detouring that way because of problems on the Garden State and my daughter had asked me to pick up a couple of items for dinner. I could not find any Velveeta, of all things, which my daughter was going to use for macaroni and cheese (she's a vegetarian so my nice juicy hamburgers don't hold any appeal for her). When I asked the clerk at the service desk I was told that they didn't carry it because their class of customers didn't buy it, but I might be able to find it at a store in Long Branch or Asbury Park (LB is 60-70% minority, mostly Hispanic with some blacks, and AP is nearly 100% black). As it happens, I did find it, several aisles away from where I expected it would have been, while heading for the soup aisle to get cheese soup as a substitute. She was quite surprised when I brought it back and showed it to her. Not only did they have the brand name, but they carried the store equivalent as well. Interesting though how the clerk associated that food item with a particular socio-economic strata.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact."
I don't think that anyone doubts that there is higher unemployment and "underemployment" (working but at a low-paying job) among blacks than whites, and that discrimination has a definite part in it.
[As an aside, strictly from personal observation and by no means scientific, I would say that the effects of discrimination hit black men MUCH harder than black women. In any office I've worked in, dealt with regularly, or even just visited, there is a **significant** proportion of black women in the workforce but not nearly as many black men. This could support either theory presented in this debate. It's evidence of stereotyping, as black men are perceived as much more threatening than black women, but it's also evidence for the "bad attitude" theory, as in general men of any race are more likely to "mouth off" to customers and bosses than women are.]
But some people here, including myself, object strenuously to your characterization that "business" -- meaning ALL business, no exceptions -- avoid hiring blacks if they can get away with it. It smacks of the old saw that all whites are racists. Or at least all those evil bourgeois capitalist white people.* This is just as bizarre and even in its own way naive a position as the other extreme, that discrimination has been vanquished and all hiring is done nowadays strictly on a merit basis. It's a near-slanderous insult to every private-sector personnel/human-relations director in the country to assert that the only reason blacks get hired in the private sector is to avoid boycotts or legal charges of discrimination.
*If I didn't have some idea of your politics from your positions in other postings, I would have presumed that WAS your meaning.
In 1962 when i was in high school in Brooklyn, there was some black students who were constantly bothering the rest of the class which had a high precentage of blacks as well as other minorites,when we asked the troublemakers why do you keep doing this don't you relize that if you don't graduate you will not get a good job.....the" reply i plan to be on welfair like the rest of my family.".....
[We ought to get what we pay for, but there are certain things a city has to have. In exchange, we have cost cutting economies of scale -- which the federal government offsets with subsidies for rural
areas. Ie. rural roads, electrification, small city air service deliveries, rural free postal delivery, and (once Al Gore OR George Bush gets in) rural internet subsidies to help move the new media
industry out of NYC.]
What's funny is that all of these rural subsidies have accomplished very little. All around the country, most rural areas are stagnant at best, in decline most of the time. The exceptions tend to be very distant exurbs or vacation-home locations. By and large, the suburbs are where the growth is, and their subsidies are more limited (consisting mainly of road construction).
Speaking of Al Gore, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that he's looking more and more like Vince McMahon's twin?
[Speaking of Al Gore, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that he's looking more and more like Vince McMahon's twin?]
Maybe because he's a Jabroni?
'Can you smell.....'
;-)
,,,...........count los angeles out of this .......a massive almost lifelong failure.....!!......want proff...???
???????????????
ditto
I've always wanted to know what the hell PROFF means.
.....to the two last threads.....the proff is the removal of the pacific electric rail cars and trolley pcc cars...in Los Angeles county...
& southern california & the totally efficent massive mass rail transit system..... track mileage the equal of new york.....
that is osme of the answer to the last two threads .........PROFF.........& ........????????????????????????
if you dont believe me go to the history books on this .....!!!
Salaam- the word you are looking for is: PROOF, not Proff. It is only a typographical error.
wayne
A typo is when you make a mistake once.
When you make the same one, consistently, it's something else.
[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead. ]
Wellfare and workfare are products of economic depression. Don't see that in NYC. I'd eliminate welfare and let them find jobs themselves.
Or they could get a Greyhound ticket and find another area where they get paid for doing nothing:-)
[Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing. ]
Agreed but so that the developer could do anything with the property.
[End rent control. ]
It's phased out already. But immediately revise ridiculous rents not even covering the maintenance.
[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.
[Arrest subway musicians and beggars. ]
..and stop giving musicians permits to perform in the subway.
[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status. ]
Can't be done, unconstitutional and unecessary as the HIV is pretty much under control, and it is a felony to knowingly infect someone.
[Build the world's tallest building. ]
What has city government to do with that. Getting little Socialist here? :-)
Rest of it I pretty much agree or have no opinion.
Arti
[[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead. ]
Wellfare and workfare are products of economic depression. Don't see that in NYC. I'd eliminate welfare and let them find jobs themselves.
Or they could get a Greyhound ticket and find another area where they get paid for doing nothing:-) ]
In truth, I think we should have public jobs program at the national level, with a negative income tax a la Moynihan to encourage private enterprise to employ low level worksers. Not welfare, not workfare, just honest work. It would pay a living wage and set a minimum standard. No perverse incentives here, because you'd have to work. I couldn't care less about the lazy, but if someone wants to pull his own weight I'm with him 900%!
[[Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing. ]
Agreed but so that the developer could do anything with the property.]
Absolutely! That would be true of private landlords too, once a lease was up.
[[End rent control. ]
It's phased out already. But immediately revise ridiculous rents not even covering the maintenance.]
AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* (only way the landlord could get his hands on her $200/month 14-room prewar apt). But I should have said I'd get rid of rent stablization, too. And I'd establish what I call a "no-op" plan--it would allow people to get an automatic, no paperwork, no downpayment mortgage and reap tax advantages from the Feds while bringing housing costs down by restoring the housing liquidity that's been killed by co op conversions and rent control.
[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.]
I'm not sure about that. You can't tell someone he can't go to court, or send his kids to school, can you?
[[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status. ]
Can't be done, unconstitutional and unecessary as the HIV is pretty much under control, and it is a felony to knowingly infect someone.]
What's unconstitutional about it?
As to HIV being under control, there are still *lots* of people getting AIDS.
[[Build the world's tallest building. ]
What has city government to do with that. Getting little Socialist here? :-)]
No way! We've seen what happens when government builds tall buildings--they build two of the world's almost-tallest buildings instead of one of the world's tallest, sheesh! I'd let Donald Trump build it, as long as he didn't make it pink. He wanted to do it in the 66th Street yards, but people wouldn't let him, and I don't blame them--it belongs in a business district.
[[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.]
I'm not sure about that. You can't tell someone he can't go to court, or send his kids to school, can you? ]
Well you can't deny a non-immgrant (tourists) these services either.
[AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* ]
She's not going to live forever. If apartment gets vacated rent control ends. Same about rent stabilization. Do you know what's the share of these?
[with a negative income tax a la Moynihan to encourage private enterprise to employ low level worksers. ]
But this in effect is a subsidy creating jobs otherwise not-profitable.
[What's unconstitutional about it? ]
One could argue it's illegal detention.
[As to HIV being under control, there are still *lots* of people getting AIDS. ]
Not at pandemic levels anymore.
Arti
[AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* ]
She's not going to live forever. If apartment gets vacated rent control ends. Same about rent stabilization. Do you know what's the share of these?]
She'll live for many years--she's 65 or so now, and will quite likely live into her 80's or 90's. And the way the law is now, she'll be stuck in a large apartment, because it would actually be more expensive for her to move to a smaller one. That's the great sin of rent control/stablization/vacancy decontrol/senior citizen rent exemption, and why it's driven up the price of housing so dramatically.
Unless things have changed, rent stabilization goes on forever. New construction isn't covered, though.
[But this in effect is a subsidy creating jobs otherwise not-profitable.]
True. I'm opposed to subsidies in general, but it seems to me that both decency and intelligent self-interest mean that we should give jobs to the unemployed. Decency because we're easily wealthy enough to afford it, and if some guy is trying I think we should help him out. Intelligent self-interest because people with jobs are likely to raise kids with very different values than people who are on welfare: values like hard work, thrift, responsibility.
The trick as I see it is not to distort the economic picture by creating perverse incentives.
[One could argue it's illegal detention.]
I'm not sure that would wash. All we're talking about here is a mandatory test, and you can force someone to give blood in a medical exam for the draft . . .
{Not at pandemic levels anymore.]
? I don't have recent figures, but worldwide it's certainly still a pandemic, and in this country it's still hitting the gay and poor communities very hard. However many people are getting it, I don't think they should die, and from a purely selfish perspective I don't think *I* should face the risk of getting it, even though that's fairly small.
[Unless things have changed, rent stabilization goes on forever. New construction isn't covered, though. ]
My impression was that the same rules applied on both rent control/stabilization.
[The trick as I see it is not to distort the economic picture by creating perverse incentives. ]
Highly doubt that NYC government would be capable of that.
[All we're talking about here is a mandatory test, and you can force someone to give blood in a medical exam for the draft . . . ]
Always suprised me that mandatory mil. service was not challenged.
[and from a purely selfish perspective I don't think *I* should face the risk of getting it, even though that's fairly small.]
Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.
Arti
Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.
Unfortunately, there's still blood transfusions, and despite the testing done on all donated blood there remains a risk. That's how a number of children have contracted the disease. I have no sympathy for those who voluntarily engage in behavior that might lead to contracting the disease, but I have a great deal of sympathy for its innocent victims, be they children born to an HIV-positive mother, hemopheliacs, rape victims, or spouses unwittingly infected due to the irresponsible behavior of their husband or wife.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't believe that!! Do really people get HIV via unchecked blood xfusions. Tell me this is not true.
Arti
[I can't believe that!! Do really people get HIV via unchecked blood xfusions. Tell me this is not true.]
The risk is very low, but it's still there.
And it's not that the blood is unchecked - it is, but no test is 100% foolproof. Call me chicken, but one of the reasons I have not had some knee and hip surgery that might help me walk better is the fact that I would need a couple of pints of blood - and, because of other medical problems, I'm not a candidate for self-donation as an alternative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Call me chicken]
Wouldn't but dacades after the problem was idntified, I don't think you'll have anything to be worried about.
Arti
[The risk is very low, but it's still there. ]
The whole life is a risk. Driving without seatbelts is a risk.. If you behave reasonably (no swinging :-)) you chanches of getting infected are less than being in a plain crash.
Arti
[The whole life is a risk. Driving without seatbelts is a risk.. If you behave reasonably (no swinging :-)) you chanches of getting infected are less than being in a plain crash.]
Depends on where you are. It's heavily localized in some geographic areas and among some subpopulations, and lots of them are in New York.
I knew a woman who was a junkie, and she told me that she had lied to her boyfriend about her drug use--this after her husband had died from AIDS. I find that sort of thing fairly chilling.
[I knew a woman who was a junkie, and she told me that she had lied to her boyfriend about her drug use--this after her husband had died from AIDS. I find that sort of thing fairly chilling. ]
That's why it is a good idea to have an HIV test with you partner before engaging in sex.
Arti
[That's why it is a good idea to have an HIV test with you partner before engaging in sex.]
Not very romantic, though. Candles, music, vials . . .
[Always suprised me that mandatory mil. service was not challenged.]
I think there were people who asked that question when conscriptoin was first introduced, but courts have a way of overlooking constitutional provisions in times of national emergency; at the time, the constitution was stretched in many other ways. It's almost as if the constitution has an unwritten provision built into it that says, stick to these ideals *to the extent you reasonably can.* In any case, I'm not sure what provision you'd use to challenge it--freedom of speech and association aren't broad enough.
[Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.]
That's not prevention, it's risk minimization. You may be monogamous, but your lovely new wife may have been a junkie or the whore of Babylon. Just look at those weird personals ads, the ones that say "discrete." There are lots of people out there doing really weird things that their partners don't know about! 60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point.
As for condoms, they don't begin to offer 100% protection, though sadly enough they slow the rate of transmission enough so that if everybody used them the disease would die out.
[though sadly enough they slow the rate of transmission enough so that if everybody used them the disease would die out. ]
Why is it sad?
Arti
Because it's such a simple remedy. But people don't do it, and many have died as a result--including complete innocents like children.
It looked like you were sad about the condoms slowing the rate of transmission.
Arti
[You may be monogamous, but your lovely new wife may have been a junkie or the whore of Babylon. Just look at those weird personals ads, the ones that say "discrete." There are lots of people out there doing really weird things that their partners don't know about! 60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point.]
"Afternoon encounters" is another code term in the personals. I am suspicious of those percentages you've given. I've seen others that are far lower. It all probably depends on who's asking the questions, and how the questions are worded.
One interesting thing I read about extra-marital affairs is that most involve married men and single women, with a smaller number involving men and women that are both married, but to other people. The percentage that involve married women and single men is exceedingly low, probably not more than two or three percent.
["Afternoon encounters" is another code term in the personals. I am suspicious of those percentages you've given. I've seen others that are far lower. It all probably depends on who's asking the questions, and how the questions are worded.
One interesting thing I read about extra-marital affairs is that most involve married men and single women, with a smaller number involving men and women that are both married, but to other people. The percentage that involve married women and single men is exceedingly low, probably not more than two or three percent.]
So if you're going to fool around you should do it with a married woman . . .
I got the figures off a silly religious website I visited by mistake a few days ago--just happened to remember them. Not the world's best source, but I've seen broadly similar figures elsewhere.
[60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point. ]
This would render mandatory HIV test meaningless. Or would you recomend repeating it after every 3 mo, I think that's the time it takes for the virus to achieve detectable levels.
Arti
[This would render mandatory HIV test meaningless. Or would you recomend repeating it after every 3 mo, I think that's the time it takes for the virus to achieve detectable levels.]
I'd certainly recommend repeating it--it would be fairly useless if you didn't. My main concern would be that people would conclude that they were safe and be more likely to engage in unprotected sex. Still, Cuba successfully prevented the spread of AIDS, and while I deplore their Draconian measures its evidence that it can be done.
[My main concern would be that people would conclude that they were safe and be more likely to engage in unprotected sex. Still, Cuba successfully prevented the spread of AIDS, and while I deplore their Draconian measures its evidence that it can be done.]
I think there is enough public awareness. As for Cuba I wouldn't trust what they claim, remember there was no AIDS in Romania during Chaucescu (or however his name is spelled.)
Arti
The musicians are OK - the panhandlers and beggars have GOT TO GO.
Krazy Glue guys are OK as long as they aren't aggressive.
wayne
[The musicians are OK ]
Some of them are very loud and right on the platform, so there's no escape.
It would be OK with me if they were in mezzanines.
Arti
How are you going to cut taxes by putting so many people in jail?
Fortunately, in some jurisdictions, it is now required that the legislature appropriate the $$$ when they enact laws to send people to jail.
[Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David]
I think it worked in New York, too. The City boomed under Tammany Hall. Cronies got rich, but the subways got built.
I think New York's problems have to be seen in a different perspective:
-The NYC and NY State developed a huge welfare system when they were the richest and most populous area of the country. But beginning in the sixties, as the poor migrated in vast numbers from rural areas to the City, the region's generous welfare policies--and that includes "white welfare" to the unions and politicians, not just welfare for the poor--began to strangle it. High taxes and poor services drove out prosperous residents and businesses. The City reached a point where any increase in taxes actually reduced the tax base, and that led to bankruptcy.
-The constitutional prejudice against urban areas hurts cities when it comes to funding. Subsidies for the South and West, enacted by a generous Northeast at the height of its prosperity, mean that money continues to flow away from the region. The South gained political power, and when its turn to control things had come, did not reciprocate.
-Welfare-related violence and busing also drove out middle class residents, reducing the City's tax base.
-These phenomena were apparent in many American cities. The ones that did and do best were the southern cities, which offer little in the way of welfare benefits. But NYC actually did better than most older cities--look at Newark or Detroit. Even LA, while it prospered for a awhile, eventually went downhill--and like other cities, suffered from riots which New York City managed to avoid, in part because the infamous Mayor Lindsay walked the streets of Harlem in his shirtsleeves when things got hot.
-NYC suffered a bad rap because of the bankruptcy--caused by a combination of the City's odious unions and welfare policies--and because as the country's largest City, it got the lion's share of bad publicity. But even at its worst, it was only #6 in the national crime statistics, and most of that crime was committed within the ghetto.
-NY State, like other states, dumped its mental patients on the City. This created the problem of homelessness--once bums became acceptable, junkies and alcoholics moved out of their traditional haunts and began to engage in behaviors that would have been unacceptable a few years previously.
-Idiotic court decisions really hurt the City. It became impossible to control porn shops, loiterers, beggars, subway musicians, wandering madmen, etc. That led to a huge reduction in the quality of life, and contributed to the exodus of businesses and middle class residents.
-The City ceded control of many important functions to the corrupt, incompetent, and out-of-touch State government during the fiscal crisis, and still doesn't control its own schools or transportation. The result has been moderately disasterous.
-After the collapse of the hapless Beame administration, much of the damage that did occur to the City was reversed during the Koch, Dinkins, and Giuliani administrations. But they're limited in what they can do by the State and the Feds. The City operates under all sorts of odious court and government mandates. If the City so much as keeps a homeless family waiting in an office overnight, it gets fined. Suburban communities give their mental patients bus tickets to the City, which has to care for them. Money that should educate children goes to dribblers in special education classes. The City has to provide apartments at luxury prices to junkies and madmen. Etc., etc.
-At the same time, the City has to be blamed for maintaining and encouraging politically popular pork like rent control and cowtowing to every NIMBY, union, and aggrieved-minority-who-will-riot-unless-people-who-can't-add-get-into-City-College type.
-But overall, the City really hasn't done that badly. Further improvements will require action at the State and Federal level, and by the courts.
[aggrieved-minority-who-will-riot-unless-people-who-can't-add-get-into-City-College]
Hey, I love that term! Of course, it's sort of irrelevant, because people who can't add (or manage to use the toilet without assistance) DO get into City College :-)
Thanksfor sharing my thoughts in another message you sent. Thanks also for the education given in your long story. I can add 2 things to confirm a lot of what you write: 1) in the intro to Sherlock Holmes Detective stories Dr. Watson described London as a city where all the empire"s (British) got dumped; 2)I've never been sorry for living in Montana for 22 years but many of the welfare ideas being racially based when one lives in the city get disproven when you live in small towns..not as much as numbers are so much fewer; any problem including drugs and teenage motherhood and other "big city'inner city"lifestyles exist in too many of these towns. But the initial topic being rail transit and cities I still maintain that for a city where rail transit is a way of life New York is backward; with less service than existed 60 years ago, or less potential if nothing else.
Not only is there less service, but the trains have been slowed down. Thundering along CPW at 45-50 mph is now a thing of the past.
[But the initial topic being rail transit and cities I still maintain that for a city where rail transit is a way of life New York is backward; with less service than existed 60 years ago, or less potential if nothing else.]
To say the least! And that date just happens to correspond to the City's takeover over the private transit lines . . .
It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.
[It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.]
We had some discussions here about privatization some time back, but I'm not holding my breath--too many fingers in the pot. OTOH, if the London Underground is successfully privatized, maybe it will serve as a salutory example.
Perhaps we can coax Lady Thatcher out of retirement . . .
[It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting
ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.]
It's hard to say what would have happened had the City not taken over the IRT and BMT in 1940. I suspect that they wouldn't have lasted all that much longer even if their fares hadn't been artificially surpressed. Postwar suburbanization, the rise of the automobile, and the end of the 5 1/2 day workweek probably would have doomed them by the early to middle 1950's, at the latest. But we'll never know for sure.
A good argument even though I've always felt that a railroad is a business and should be run by business people. I think if they were allowed to make a profit the IRT and BMT could have survived, and pay taxes to boot. But then there are the memories of the suburban railroads carrying on about their losses on commuters and the eventual public takeover of suburban mass transit. Of course the properties were taxed quite heavily too. Then of course the final straw was the creation of Amtrak , unfortunately even at present fares no form of rail transit (or for that matter most bus lines)make a profit. People movers generally. The one token exception seems to be Greyhound and perhaps some regional intercity busses. Airlines? I doubt that if oyou were to dig deep enough that they'dbe making money if it weren't for mails, public facilities and gosh knows what aid they get that you never hear about. The only thing some pols complain about is subsidy to mass transit [rails mostly] and Amtrak.
[But then there are the memories of the suburban railroads carrying
on about their losses on commuters and the eventual public takeover of suburban mass transit. Of course the properties were taxed quite heavily too.]
What we need to remember that initially the RxRs made lots of money, i.e. some of the most well known fat cats from those days long ago were rail barrons. Then things changed & it became harder & harder for them to make extraordinarily profits. The public & politations slapped taxes on them (rightly so initially), but weren't willing to reduce the burden when they started loosing money. So RxRs walked away from the money loosing passenger business. In NYC there were several incidents where the owners demanded a fare increase or else, the politations called there bluff and ended up with a trolley/subway/commuter rail/bus line to run.
Now local governments want to get out of the transit business. If they give the new owner/operator the ability to make a reasonable profit, but keep them on a short leash so that service & maint. doesn't suffer it could be a very good thing. HBLR & Phoniex (Valley Transit) are examples of this new trend. I consider the "private" bus companies in NYC a kind of 1/2 way approach because there are still a great number of government people involved, so the "operators" don't have a lot of say in the equipment bought or service provided.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own.
Mr t__:^)
I believe that if the city had taken back the TRACKS AND STATIONS, which it owned, and used tax dollars to maintain and upgrade them the way it uses tax dollars to maintain and upgrade public buildings and roads, then the private companies could have made money on operating the subway VEHICLES. We could still do that deal today. Same with the commuter railroads, if they weren't so featherbedded. So could express buses. You'd have just needed to allow fares to rise with inflation.
The government made railroads pay for themselves and pay taxes, while roads were paid for and tax free.
Local Buses are more of a problem. They are really a social service for the elderly and those too poor to own cars, and are expected to provide mobility on routes that don't pay.
Express bus service ... at $3 vs about $5 for the LIRR ... not too much room to raise this money looser.
Local bus service ... some routes carry enough folks to almost pay for them selves, but 24 hours a day incl. frequent mid-day is a big cost for a lot of mostly empty buses. So the question is SERVICE vs. profits. Government would need to set the service level & pony up the cash to provide it. You would need folks with sharp penciles to ensure that the public is getting the best deal. At DOT that kind of effort goes on, but does it at TA ?
The subways seem to carry a lot more folks more of the time, so it seems logical that a fare increase & some fat cutting could make it pay for itself ... capital improvements is another issue which you seem to agree should not be left up to the "operator".
Mr t__:^)
The commuter fares are higher, yet the farebox recovery ratio is always lower, why? The very nature of the commuter service makes it a loser. If the subway was comprably priced (I mean same rate per mile), then it could turn a profit.
The DC Metro, which uses this system, is more like a commuter railroad that doesn't require a transfer at a central terminal downtown. And acts as the subway downtown, with normal fares.
[The commuter fares are higher, yet the farebox recovery ratio is always lower, why? The very nature of the commuter service makes it a loser. If the subway was comprably priced (I mean same rate per mile), then it could turn a profit.
The DC Metro, which uses this system, is more like a commuter railroad that doesn't require a transfer at a central terminal downtown. And acts as the subway downtown, with normal fares.]
The commuter RR's pay their employees much more money than NYC transit and uses them less efficiently--the fare collection system would have been familiar to Dickens. But the NYC subway system is fairly unique among modern transit operations because the difficulty of driving in the City leads to unusually heavy usage. The commuter RR's, while they have plenty of passengers, are basically peak services, meaning that the ROW, vehicles, and operational employees are underutilized most of the time.
The NYC subway could make a profit if privately run, even with ongoing capital expenses, but it would reqire drastic changes in labor practices and/or the fee/service structure. You would effectively have to kick out the union and do everything as economically as possible--one and then zero person train operation, unattended stations, part time employees, that sort of thing. Or you wold have to charge fares and offer services on a zone based, peak/off peak/way offpeak basis. It costs a small fortune to carry someone to the Rockaways at 3AM.
[The NYC subway could make a profit if privately run, even with ongoing capital expenses, but it would reqire drastic changes in labor practices and/or the fee/service structure. You would effectively have to kick out the union and do everything as economically as possible--one and then zero person train operation, unattended stations, part time employees, that sort of thing. Or you wold have to charge fares and offer services on a zone based, peak/off peak/way offpeak basis. It costs a small fortune to carry someone to the Rockaways at 3AM.]
Changes might not even have to be that drastic. If you exclude capital expenses (granted, a big "if"), farebox revenues bring subway reasonably close to break-even. It might not be necessary to get rid of the unions entirely, if there could be some common-sense compromises.
Rather than see high "way offpeak" fares, I'd reconsider whether 24/7 service at virtually all stations really makes sense. You're right that it costs a lot to take a passenger to the Rockaways at 3AM. A "true cost" fare would cost an arm and a leg. I would ask whether such service is really necessary.
[Changes might not even have to be that drastic. If you exclude capital expenses (granted, a big "if"), farebox revenues bring subway reasonably close to break-even. It might not be necessary to get rid of the unions entirely, if there could be some common-sense compromises.
Rather than see high "way offpeak" fares, I'd reconsider whether 24/7 service at virtually all stations really makes sense. You're right that it costs a lot to take a passenger to the Rockaways at 3AM. A "true cost" fare would cost an arm and a leg. I would ask whether such service is really necessary.]
That's the problem with subsidies, and why I favor charging something like the actual cost of providing a service. No more political arguemnts about whether one or another uneconomical service should be retained: people can decide what something is worth to them. I doubt that we'd see 3 AM Rockaway service very long if the fare went up to $20.
But I think you're right about changes not having to be that drastic--I was using the extreme case as an illustration. In practice, I think the subways could become profitable with a combination of changes in work rules and uneconomical scheduling. I'd like to see the government pay for the maintenance of the ROW, with fares paying for service and rolling stock, which would give it parity with cars.
[It's hard to say what would have happened had the City not taken over the IRT and BMT in 1940. I suspect that they wouldn't have lasted all that much longer even if their fares hadn't been artificially surpressed. Postwar suburbanization, the rise of the automobile, and the end of the 5 1/2 day workweek probably would have doomed them by the early to middle 1950's, at the latest. But we'll never know for sure.]
They might have required a subsidy, but then, maybe not--after all, the BMT squeaked by even with the 5c fare, and the IRT would have if it hadn't been required to maintain unprofitable el service. It seems to me that an inflation-adjusted fare would have accomodated the drop in ridership.
Even if subsidies had been required, the private operators would have been more efficient.
Addenda: Dr. Watson sid all the empire's garbage got dumped on London. One word left the punchline hanging.
>>>politically popular pork like
rent control<<<
Necessary, though, to keep rents in the boroughs from rising to Manhattan's outlandish levels...
www.forgotten-ny.com
So what? There are plenty of areas that are poor and downtrodden that could use people who are priced out of new Yuppie havens near Manhattan. There will certainly never be a point where any outer-borough will be consistently overpriced like Manhattan. If that happens, you'll see taller buildings going up in places. Although I'm sure that NIMBYs will oppose zoning changes that will allow detached one familys to be replaced with 2 or 3 family rows, 7 floor apartment buildings and eventually high-rises.
If rent control was ended, other than a few neighborhoods (Forest Hills), rents in the outer boroughs would stay the same or fall.
There are lots of people outside Manhattan who'd rather be in Manhattan, but cannot get an affordable apartment there because so many are "occupied" by people paying $500 a month, some of whom sublet and live elsewhere. Ending rent control would throw a lot of those units on the market at, say, $2,000 per month. That would stop rents in neighborhoods attracting Manhattan wannabes from rising to the $2,000 per month they can afford.
Rent regulation primarily benefits those paying below market rents in Manhattan. In the outer boroughs, rents are either unregulated (in 2-3 family homes), no higher than they would be anyway, or low but balanced by lack of maintenance.
]>>>politically popular pork like
rent control<<<
Necessary, though, to keep rents in the boroughs from rising to Manhattan's outlandish levels...]
I don't think that would happen. It's a supply and demand thing, after all. If landlords raise the rents to high, people will move elsewhere.
Econ 101: subsidies and price controls create inefficiencies of use and shortages, and ultimately *drive up* the price of a product. New York Econ 101: combining price controls with partial destabilization and perverse tax incentives drives the cost of a product through the roof.
What I'd expect if we eliminated rent control is a sudden rent increase to start, followed by an overall decrease as people moved and housing stock was used more efficiently. Ultimately, average rents would be higher than they are now in the most desireable neighborhoods, lower in the shoulder neighborhoods, and much lower in outlying areas.
Keep in mind that the City didn't have rent control prior to the Second World War, and not only did things work fine, most of our current housing stock was built.
[What I'd expect if we eliminated rent control is a sudden rent increase to start, followed by an overall decrease as people moved and housing stock was used more efficiently. Ultimately, average rents would be higher than they are now in the most desireable neighborhoods, lower in the shoulder neighborhoods, and much lower in outlying areas.
Keep in mind that the City didn't have rent control prior to the Second World War, and not only did things work fine, most of our current housing stock was built.]
My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan (which doesn't mean that I favor keeping rent control, however). Figure it this way - the costs of construction being what they are, any newly constructed unsubsudized apartment building has to charge very high rents. Apartment shortages caused by rent control mean that there are plenty of people who are willing to pay these high rents. Now, get rid of rent control, and the rental vacancy rate is likely to rise substantially, at least in the initial stages. You might very well see fewer people willing to pay the enormous rents in new buildings. Many of them might instead go for that eight-room prewar on the Upper West Side that's now occupied by an elderly widow paying $300/month.
(My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan).
Bear in mind that while new rental buildings are theoretically exempt from rent regulation, that law could change at any time. In fact, lots of new rental housing was built in the 1950s and 1960s with the promise that it would be exempt from rent control. Then in 1969, rent stabilization was created and applied retroactively to the new, "exempt" buildings.
One reason little rental housing is built is the difficulty of getting financing. You want to invest your 401K in NYC residential apartments? I sure don't.
When you think about, rent control and rent stablization spring from the same political mindset that gave New York City the mandated nickle fare through the 1920s and 1930s. It was great for the politicians to use to curry favor with the voters, but by keeping the fare below resonable market prices, the city ended up putting the IRT and BMT out of business. The rent policies of the city have led to the abandonment of buildings in less desirable neighborhoods, and the strange situation that apartments that are less desirable will have tenants who pay higher rents than those in more desirable spots, because those people never move out.
Hence, the $2,000-a-month one-bedroom, one-half kitchen walkup.
[When you think about, rent control and rent stablization spring from the same political mindset that gave New York City the mandated nickle fare through the 1920s and 1930s. It was great for the politicians to use to curry favor with the voters, but by keeping the fare below resonable market prices, the city ended up putting the IRT and BMT out of business. The rent policies of the city have led to the abandonment of buildings in less desirable neighborhoods, and the strange situation that apartments that are less desirable will have tenants who pay higher rents than those in more desirable spots, because those people never move out.
Hence, the $2,000-a-month one-bedroom, one-half kitchen walkup.]
Yeah. It really hurts the City overall, making it virtually unaffordable for young middle class people with kids, while driving the poor out of marginal areas that gentrify.
It also retards the cycle of replacement and rewnewal that allows neighborhoods to respond to supply and demand.
[Bear in mind that while new rental buildings are theoretically exempt from rent regulation, that law could change at any time. In fact, lots of new rental housing was built in the 1950s and 1960s with the promise that it would be exempt from rent control. Then in 1969, rent stabilization was created and applied retroactively to the new, "exempt" buildings.
One reason little rental housing is built is the difficulty of getting financing. You want to invest your 401K in NYC residential apartments? I sure don't.]
It probably would be unlikely in the extreme to apply rent regulation to new construction in a retroactive manner. If the city tried, the building owners and lenders would fight tooth and nail, and the whole matter would be tied up in court for years.
There's clearly a lot of new residential construction going on right now - check the west side between 23rd and 34th streets - but I don't know how much is rental and how much is coop/condo. I suspect there's more of the latter, condominiums in particular, simply because homeownership makes a lot more sense than renting. If you own a condominium, you get a neat income tax deduction for mortgage interest and property taxes, plus you benefit from appreciation and amortization (with the 15-year mortgages that are quite common today, you start seeing amortization far sooner than with a 30-year). You get none of that, of course, with a rental.
[If you own a condominium, you get a neat income tax deduction for mortgage interest and property taxes, plus you benefit from appreciation and amortization (with the 15-year mortgages that are quite common today, you start seeing amortization far sooner than with a 30-year). You get none of that, of course, with a rental.]
Unfortunately, that creates a perverse government incentive really hurts the efficiency of the City's housing supply. It's so much work to buy and sell and apartment that people don't move very often. One of the reasons the City worked as well as it did was because people used a fluid rental market to compensate for the high cost of space and the fact that they couldn't add a new bedroom when a new kid arrived. Then too, it's virtually impossible to demolish a co-op bulding and put in something bigger and more appropriate if demand changes.
One possible solution which I think I mentioned a few days ago would be to create a new type of automatic condominium mortgage. The down payment would be equivalent to today's security deposit. The building would manage the loans, and the law would be written to allow the management company to repurchase the apartment under terms similar to those in a lease, providing the equivalent of eviction and obviating the need for overly thorough background checks. In short, it would act like a rental, but would confer the tax and capital gains benefits of ownership to rich and poor alike.
The structure you propose is actually very similar to a time share condominium, which is fairly common these days. You rproposal is essentially just that one owner will own all of the "time" in a unit. Usually, these are not a great deal for the owners, expecially because they are usually done in resort areas by operating companies interestedin making money managing the buildings. However I suppose that they could be structured in a way that might make sense for permanent residents.
[The structure you propose is actually very similar to a time share condominium, which is fairly common these days. You rproposal is essentially just that one owner will own all of the "time" in a unit. Usually, these are not a great deal for the owners, expecially because they are usually done in resort areas by operating companies interestedin making money managing the buildings. However I suppose that they could be structured in a way that might make sense for permanent residents.]
Interesting. I'm far from up on real estate, as you can see!
[My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan (which doesn't mean that I favor keeping rent control, however). Figure it this way - the costs of construction being what they are, any newly constructed unsubsudized apartment building has to charge very high rents. Apartment shortages caused by rent control mean that there are plenty of people who are willing to pay these high rents. Now, get rid of rent control, and the rental vacancy rate is likely to rise substantially, at least in the initial stages. You might very well see fewer people willing to pay the enormous rents in new buildings. Many of them might instead go for that eight-room prewar on the Upper West Side that's now occupied by an elderly widow paying $300/month.]
I think you're right about the demographic changes, insofar as this is now the province of rent control/stabilization (co op conversions have taken a huge slice out of the upscale rental market). It's a perfect example of how it would benefit overall housing prices. But I'd expect things to get more expensive closer to the core of the desireable housing stock.
[In an ideal world, the flow of benefits or money from New York to New Jersey should be utterly irrelevant because both areas are parts of the same region. New Yorkers have got to stop their parochial way of thinking. Wake up, the world DOES NOT end at the Hudson.]
I don't see how not wanting to be ripped off makes one a parochial country bumpkin, or the world stop at the Hudson. I live in New York, and the taxes I pay are insane. They aren't going to me, and they aren't going to help little orphan children in Hoboken either. And while it's well and good to rail at New York City's construction problems, the days when the City paid its muncipal employees more than other areas of the region are gone. Now they receive less. We've basically squeezed the goose that laid the golden eggs until it can't lay very well anymore.
Also, you talk as if the PA didn't put funds in NY because of construction boondoggles, but you know that has nothing to do with it. They won't even let the MTA bring subway access to the Laguardia terminals! That's about as helpful to the region as subsidizing sports stadiums.
[My reaction is, big deal. If we think of New York and New Jersey as identical component parts of the *same entity*, it makes no difference which side is more generous with the other.]
I think that's oversimplifying the situation. When the City contributes too much to New Jersey or upstate or anyplace else, it has to raise taxes and reduce services, making it a less attractive place to live and a less attractive place for businesses. That in turn hurts NJ and the other suburban areas, which are dependent on Manhattan's prosperity. If Manhattan were safer, the subways and trains faster and more comfortable, the streets cleaner, it would benefit everybody.
But more than that--the sort of unfairness I'm mentioning results in boondoggles, money going where it isn't needed for political reasons. And that wastes the region's resources, and makes it less competitive. The business with the airports is a prime example: the PA built up Newark airport for political reasons, and that was all well and good as far as it went--it made the region stronger. But at the same time it starved JFK of funds, and JFK turned into a dump. And that made the region weaker.
Don't get me wrong--I don't see anything wrong with one part of the region spending extra money to build up another if there's a reason. Economically, we're one big town with a huge central business district. If the region will benefit by improving roads for manufacturers in New Jersey or commuter access to Midtown, I'm all in favor of it. It's just that that's not what's happening, not by a long shot! Look at how far we are from having the sort of trasnportation infrastructure we should--direct commuter access to the business districts, comfortable stations and fast, uncrowded subways for commuters from inside and outside the city, park and ride garages with plenty of capacity, new highways to relieve congestion, PATH/subway/Light Rail integration, freight service to Brooklyn and Queens, fast