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We were trying to figure out what street and CNJ station had been there before the name change. I believe it was Jackson Avenue. Any of you Jersey City people know for sure?
i check on some old maps and look like it was bergan ave
Bergen Ave. still exists.
Jackson Avenue. By the way, the old station was not Central Railroad but New York and Newark Railroad. The station building still exists on the west side of the street, but to reach the trains, you had to walk down stairs. To be ADA compliant, the station is now at grade.
I checked an old Hudson County map to try to determine what the tower is along the HBLR tracks at Chapel Street. I had thought it might be Tower C where the CNJ Newark line joined the main line. It isn't. The HBLR West Side Ave. Line pretty much follows the ROW of the CNJ Newark Branch. The split from the main line where Tower C was is about the same location near Liberty State Park station where the West Side Ave Line and Bayonne Line split now. The remains of the tower at Chapel Street appear to be where two Lehigh Valley branches join:one running north-south along side the CNJ main line; and one running east into Caven Point. The tower's name I do not know.
Arrived afternoon at Branford because a colleague at my company invited me to a model RxR open (Yonkers Model RxR Club). They had three layout operating: G scale, Linoel & HO, two are permanent layouts.
At Shoreline we were treated to some Model As & the like, which fit right in with trolleys. Private car 316 came out (a Union Ry/3rd Ave) that is in marvelous shape. One of the bench cars also came out on her own power, but she didn't go down the line :-(
Members Day is when non-operating folks get their chance for handle time ... a lot of folks showed up, so my plan was to ride a few cars & leave early, however many left in the early afternoon, so to my great surprise I was able to get a turn driving the BU El Gate Car, 1227 and the IRT R-17. Doug, Lou & Steff all got time on the R-9. Then I hopped on the H&M 503 for what I thought was just a move within the yard limits (the R-17 & H&M were trading places). To my surprise we were treated to ride down the line & back. Inside she's a work in progress, but mechanically she made the round trip without a problem ... nice to know she's still functional !
P.S. It was also great to see a few SubTalkers who are also members, about a dozen in all.
Mr t__:^)
It was a great day. The weather turned out to be sunny ( rain was predicted ). The horseless carriages
was a nice surprise also. Stef gave me a tour of 6688 ( R17 ) and explained the ongoing work being
done ( Thanks Stef ). Meeting up with fellow Subtalkers was also great. We held our own chat room
and talked before boarding the El Gate car for a ride down the line.
Doug, Stef, Lou and myself handled the switches for awhile ( Doug was our radioman ).
I enjoyed getting handle time on the R17 and H&M. An experience that will not be forgotten.
Overall, B.E.R.A did an outstanding performance. The turnout was great along with the food.
Thanks to Jeff H. and the crew at Bradford for a job well done.
Paul :-)
Thank You for coming. Hopefully, you can get together again with myself and the other gentlemen at sometime. Did someone say H and M Car 503 came out? Gosh, I can't believe I left early and missed a great moment!
Regards,
Stef
I'm glad to see you guys had a great time. You went down the line in 503????? Awww shucks, I knew I missed something. It was good to get together with other railfans for the day. I certainly hope to see many of them again.
See Ya at the Next Member's Day.
-Stef
Stef,
There is something you have to see on eBay...
Check eBay 320546621 & 320546624
I hope I have those numbers right, they are your beloved R-17's.
I heard about it. Perhaps I should buy one, paint it up as a redbird and number it 6688, put a trolley pole on it and let her roll. What do you think? Speaking of which, a gentleman came from Mike's Train House to record what will be the proto sounds for the R-21 Set due out at some future time. What did he use to produce the sounds? Why 6688, of course. If the MTH Train sounds like a subway car, then know that it came from 6688! Doors, compressors, motor generators, and so on, all to give life to what should be an interesting R-21 set.
-Stef
-Stef
Good point, Stef.
BTW, some folks will find it odd, but that recording guy is supposedly going to use the motor/traction noises from R-9 #1689 for the Proto Sounds of the MTH O-gauge GG1! Go figure....
Doug aka BMTman
Thurston,
I can't believe that you actually ran 1227! I'd give anything just to be able to ride on it one more time.
It IS quite amazing that this old wooden girl from 1903 is in the shape she is. Even has an old BRT route map inside.
So, mark October 7th or 8th on your calendar, i.e. "Autumn in NY" at Shoreline. Join the museum and let the staff know EARLY on that day that you want you drive the BU Gate car as your welcome prize. Chances would be good if you give them plunty of time to work it out, as the BU mechanically is quite reliable.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, it was a GREAT Member's Day!
I got handle time on 1689, 1227 (the "Luciano car") and much later, 6688 (with a special "thank you" to Steve K for his patience).
Later, both Lou and I got to put trolley cars 775 and 629 to "bed" w/o supervision (we're qualified on those cars). Of course, Thurston & Company were getting hands-on experience with the H&M car and holding up the "lineup" of barn-bound equipment. I gotta admit, it was a most unusual feeling to be working on a railroad in darkness while maneuvoring equipment up and down the line. It sharpens your senses as you have to be more alert than normal for anything that might occur unexpectedly.
It was also good meeting up with Anon E. Mouse, and fellow Brooklynite and Branford "newbie", Paul.
Lou is a bit under the weather right now, so here's a "shout-out" to him: Hey, Lou, fight that bug so you can help sand the roof of 6688 next weekend. I heard Lou S. needs some "real men" for that project!
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Thurston, another operator ( I can't recall his name - certified ) and myself were down the line getting handle time on the H&M. A different handling feeling than the R17. I perfer the R17. But you’re right
about working in the darkness. The H&M had no headlights and a flashlight was used to light up the
roadbed.
But the best view that came out of the darkness was 6688 approach to the yard. It looked like a whole
trainset of R17’s from a distance were waiting for the R9 to clear the track. As the R9 moved towards
the barn, the R17 moved in closer. As the R17 cleared the switches, Doug and Lou went into action
to place 775 and 629 into the barn. The yard was quite active towards the end of the day ( or night )
Quite a sight!
Paul :-)
It was good to see you too, Doug, and Thurston and all the rest of the folks. Jr. and I had a great time ... good thing they had plenty of food at the buffet, he made at least four trips through the line (he's a growing boy, what else can I say). I took the controls of Johnston 357, Third Avenue 629, and Union 316 (hand brakes, no less) and rode 1001 and a couple of other cars. I wanted to ride 1227 but 316 was supposed to follow it down the line so I needed to stay put there (as it turned out, the dispatcher slipped up and waited until it had returned before sending us). We arrived at 10 and didn't leave until after 5:30 for the three-hour run back to Eatontown. Wish we could get up more often but especially during the summer it's not practical.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
nd Union 316 (hand brakes, no less) and rode
1001 and a couple of other cars. I wanted to ride 1227 but 316 was supposed to follow it down the line so I needed
to stay put there (as it turned out, the dispatcher slipped up and waited until it had returned before sending u
Consider yourself privileged! Not many have operated 316.
(Or 503 for that matter)
As for 1227, you must have misunderstood the supervisor's
instructions. When we operate rapid transit cars, they have
an absolute block down the line.
I dont consider myself privileged! I have volunteered at shoreline for two years and have yet been able to operate the regular stuff!!!
Not that I complaining, but I would love to operate anything but,,,
As for 1227, you must have misunderstood the supervisor's instructions. When we operate rapid transit cars, they have an absolute block down the line.
I can certainly understand that, given the power consumption if for no other reason. I have a hard time sorting out what people say when more than one person is talking (even if it's just an unrelated conversation nearby), so I'm sure you're right, I probably did misunderstand the dispatcher. Oh well ... maybe on New York Days this fall ...
316 was an interesting car to operate - indeed, rather than being trickier than the other cars I found it easier to bring it to a smooth stop. Now if only it had a smooth ride :-) The restoration work is incredible though. I was very impressed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And I never knew the Museum had a privately-owned trolley car in the collection, until I was introduced to Ron and his son who did the complete resto job on 316.
It certain is an impressive piece of rolling history.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug (& others), 316 is NOT privately owned. Ron gave
the museum clear title to the car several years ago.
Thanks, Jeff.
I stand corrected.
Doug aka BMTman
Ron also had a close partner in the restoration of 316 - Charlie Loinaz. They did much of the work in one of the side barns, and put a lot of their own money into it. Ron does excellent fine detail work. He is the one who paints the gold lettering on the 'Sprague' signs that adorn our main building. Just one of the many tasks that gets done by a volunteer who is not looking for any pats on the back.
We had the opportunity yesterday to test whether the transfer will work with a zero balance. Rosanne and I left Bedford Ave. on the L. The balance on the card at that point was zero. We got off at Sixth Avenue and transferred to a M-14. It worked.
That's great news, maybe they fixed the problem. I've seen a lot fewer data errors lately & asked if it was imagination or did they fix something ... they haven't replyed yet.
Mr t__:^)
Metrocard that have a Zero balance after the last fare is taken off always had the transfer on it. The only time that it dose not have it, is when the person put the card in to a fare box with out look at what is on it and it gose into split fare mod. Then the transfer is then ereased off it.
I never had a problem, as long as you were within 2:18 limit
It is actually 2:18 to 2:23, depending on when dipped/swiped.
In split mode, are all previously encoded trasfers wiped out?
In split mode, are all previously encoded transfers wiped out?
I've recorded some strange sounds from a couple of subway cars, and I don't
know what this sound is. It sounds like the subway car is whining. The pitch
of the sound changes as the doors open and close. I don't know what it is. I
have two samples of this sound. One from an R36, the other from an R68. I've
also heard a similar sound on an R44 and on an R40 slant. I don't know what these
sounds are. If you do, tell me. There are two ways of telling me. First,
you can E-mail me.
Second, post responses here. (In order
to make a post, you need to obtain a password. If you don't have a password, click
here.)
What could these sounds be? Those who subit an idea through the E-mail by
1:00:00 PM EDT on May 12, 2000 will get their name, e-mail address and idea, on an LED
sign to be located above this text. Anyone who submits an idea after this time will
not get that honor. (I reserve the right to change or
omit any text that I consider inappropriate. By this I mean profanity, vulgarity or
any other crude language that any religious organization's leader wouldn't say. This
also includes any submissions that I feel do not answer the question.)
HERE ARE THE MYSTERY SOUNDS
Mystery Sound #1
This is from the R36
WAV, 425K, 39s
Mystery Sound #2
This is from the R68. The sound change fromm the closing doors is drowned out by
the announcement on the PA, but it's there.
WAV, 287K, 26s
I apologize about the way it looks, it came from the HTML source for the latest Subway Sounds 2000 Page. It does get the message across, though. What are those sounds?
I am fairly certain that the r-68 sound is from thier stellar PA systems. I hear that sound alot when I ride them. The r-36 sounds like a similar problem but I do not ride them that much and do not really know.
Peace,
ANDEE
The thing is the sound can be heard on the outside of the car, and the sound changes pitch when the doors move. I don't think it could be the PA. It might be something else on the outside of the car that's causing the sound.
The whining sounds to me like a chopper circuit (solid state DC to AC converter). If the doors are operated by AC motors (I have no idea if they are in these classes of cars), that would explain why the pitch changes when the doors are operated.
When will the 63 street connection be opened? What trains will run in it? I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked
This question gets asked EVERY WEEK. And every week the same answer is given: There is no real published plan, but lots of theories. Wait and see.
Thanks! BTW is it May already?
Arti
When will the 63 street connection be opened? What trains will run in it? I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked
SECOND TIME: This question gets asked EVERY WEEK. And every week the same answer is given: There is no real published plan, but lots of theories. Wait and see.
>I am sure that we all will be happy that I am making sure this question is asked <
I don't know. The question does nothing for me.
It does for me, I have my calendar based on it.
Arti
I'm not. Dave, please put something at the top of the board with links to the appropriate FAQ sections for commonly asked questions like what will service be when 63rd Street opens and when will the R142s start running. It is VERY annoying.
Unfortunately I don't have any actual answers to the questions.
Besides, there already is a link to the FAQ at the top of the board.
-Dave
But obviously, no one pays attention to it. I see new posters posting the same thing time and time again. It doesn't occur to them to look there for the answer first.
Obviously, this question, the way it was posed makes it clear that the poster was only seeking to aggravate others.
I say don't satisfy these trolls by posting a response to the elephant dung they post.
I beg your pardon, but the FAQ pages as well as the other sections doesn't answer the question of when the 63rd connection is projected to be opened. You can't blame them for asking this specific question.
If it is, then it is not obvious. I searched the site for 20 minutes and couldn't find the answer to this question.
You can't find because it doesn't exist. There is as of today, May 2, 2000 no published plan from NYCT dealing with the 63rd connection.
Rest assured that as soon as there is something official about the 63rd connection, it will be posted by somebody.
Now that the HBLR is in operation, does anyone have information on the radio frequency the line is using?
Did anyone go on yesterday's walking tour of the West Side Freight Line held by the Transit Museum?
-dave
Yes.
Well.....please tell
Sorry, I didn't have time before. The tour started at 14th St. and 8th Ave. We walked west to the meat -packing area. Our guide, Raanan Geberer, showed us the overhead RR and explained its importance to the meat-packing industry. Where the tracks led into some of the meat plants is obvious. We then walked up 10th Ave. It was evident that the line had several spurs that went directly into other buildings. The line had orginally been at grade level, but was elevated after auto traffic increased. The line became know as the "lifeline" and sometimes the "high-line" of New York. We then walked into the 20s and over to 9th Ave..Raanan then spent a little time on the 9th Ave.El including a mention of the one part of it that was in a tunnel--in the Bronx--in the Polo Grounds Shuttle. Yes, I told him that we had been there. We then walked back to 10th Ave.. The "lifeline" had also been used for passenger service which was evident at the end of the tour at the postal annex on 31st St. which has a plaque commemorating the location of the Hudson River Railroad Terminal whose first passenger was Abraham Lincoln on his way to his inauguration. Lincoln's body was also there for viewing as it made stops along the way to its burial in Illinois. Raanan also mentioned Kevin's Forgotten NY New York Central page two or three times. The tour was interesting, but I think many of us felt it was incomplete without actually walking on the Row itself.
That's too bad, since I thought from reading the literature on the tour, that you WERE going to walk at least on some of the old ROW that is above ground.
Doug aka BMTman
Gents, Ladies a date for your calendar should you be in merry ole' England this month!,
The L A S T "Steam on the Met" event organised by London Underground
will take place over two weekends:
20th & 21st May
27th-28th-29th May
Steam hauled services will operate between Watford and Amersham with
a few early or late services extended from/to Harrow on the Hill.
This event as I mentioned is scheduled to be 'the last' as London
Underground is currently undergoing major restructuring in line with
public-private -partnership (or PPP)so the "buff" events are being shelved for now.
If any subtalkers,perhaps on vacation are in the area on these dates
stop by an visit.
1922 vintage electric locomotive No.12 "sarah siddons" will also be in use (Note this electric loco is actually OLDER than the steam locos!).
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
.
I spent an afternoon at "Steam on the Met" last May. Well worth the time and effort. Your ticket is good for the day; take as many trips as you want! The equipment varies depending on the schedule. You can watch from the platform while the engines do the required "run around" as they change ends and buffer-up to the vintage coaches. "Sarah Siddons" was there last year, along with three steamers.
I presume it will run on at least the original 1863 portion of the Underground.
All collectors: if you haven't seen it, the new card is out as mentioned last week or so. It shore is pertty!
JoeCaronetti
Does anybody know if there were once trolley lines to what are now the Laurelton/Rosedale sections of Queens? I imagine that if there were, they would have originated in downtown Jamaica, but I have no actual information to support that supposition.
There were very few trolley lines that ran completely in Queens. Most were extension of Brooklyn Lines
I note the extensive article in today's NYT on the huge MTA bond issue planned. Will this be good for the proposed big improvements like the Second Ave subway, LaGuardia extension, and LIRR East Side Access?
(I note the extensive article in today's NYT on the huge MTA bond issue planned. Will this be good for the proposed big improvements like the Second Ave subway, LaGuardia extension, and LIRR East Side Access)?
It virtually guarantees that instead of building the Second Avenue Subway, the Transit Authority will return to severe service cutbacks and deferred maintenance after 2004 (actually after 2002, or in the next recession) whichever is first. They are borrowing so much money that they will have to cut the operating budget to fund interest payments, and will be unable to have another capital budget, after 2004. Of all the things that have been done to hurt the future of New York City in the past 20 years, this is the worst.
I see that you have a strong idea about this. Why are they proceeding with this issue if it will screw everything up?
[I see that you have a strong idea about this. Why are they proceeding with this issue if it will screw everything up?]
Because they're a bunch of crooks. From one of the two articles in the Times, this one on the conflict of interest between Bear Sterns's role as financial adviser to the MTA and an underwriter of a deal that will net investment banks about $100,000,000:
Some Long Island politicians grumbled that Bear Sterns's actions were ethically questionable. Critics were already asserting that Bear Stearns's role as a major financial supporter of Senator Alfonse M. D'Amato and the state Republican Party had helped it secure its closeness to the Power Authority. Federal prosecutors ended an inquiry into those allegations last year without issuing any findings.
In the end, authority officials insisted that the firm won the role of lead underwriter because it had the best presentation -- thanks in part, some conceded, to its superior advance knowledge of the deal.
Because no one is held directly accountable for the MTA, and the damage will be felt in the future when those making these decisions are gone.
Pataki hates the city, cut off state tax dollars for the MTA capital plan (but not state tax dollars for roads), then tilted the remaining resources toward the commuter railroads. Giuliani cut city funding for the MTA (and for transportation in general), then the City Council cut it more. Dinkins had already cut it. And it was already below the U.S. local government average.
Then there is the fare. The transit workers will be earning more, but riders won't be paying more. The result, a growing operating deficit which is being funded by extremely high Wall Street tax payments dedicated in the MTA. When the stock market turns down. People on this board take the long view, and are willing to accept fare increases that keep up with inflation. They know the results of "save the fare" politicing in the past -- decline.
Sheldon Silver is the enenmy of the people of New York City. Pakaki and Bruno are also the enemies, but they don't pretend otherwise.
Hmmm.. well, I realize that Pataki's main political allegiances are not in NYC. But NYC is today perhaps the most economically vital portion of NYS. This was the case historically as well, until the late 1960's when NYC began its modern existential crisis. It is now possible to see a new NYC emerging. Economically based on producing intellectual content. A first rate transit system is surely an essential part of that economic vision. And the suburban regions need this NYC to emerge as much as NYC itself does. So, let's face it, the intra-regional bashing is not really in anyone's best long-term interests. Even Upstate cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and Binghamton are likely to benefit from NYC's resurgence (if it can be sustained.)
At some point, if the MTA plan goes forward, Albany and City Hall will be forced to resume their subsidies. This will be driven by the election cycle. In the interrim the bond houses will make big commissions off the bond sales, and make susbstantial election contributions to the candidates who sent them the business.
I just hope that the big projects somehow can proceed. While I am not certain that the LaGuardia extension is justified, the others surely are.
[Hmmm.. well, I realize that Pataki's main political allegiances are not in NYC. But NYC is today perhaps the most economically vital portion of NYS. This was the case historically as well, until the late 1960's when NYC began its modern existential crisis. It is now possible to see a new NYC emerging. Economically based on producing intellectual content. A first rate transit system is surely an essential part of that economic vision. And the suburban regions need this NYC to emerge as much as NYC itself does. So, let's face it, the intra-regional bashing is not really in anyone's best long-term interests. Even Upstate cities like Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany and Binghamton are likely to benefit from NYC's resurgence (if it can be sustained.)
At some point, if the MTA plan goes forward, Albany and City Hall will be forced to resume their subsidies. This will be driven by the election cycle. In the interrim the bond houses will make big commissions off the bond sales, and make susbstantial election contributions to the candidates who sent them the business.
I just hope that the big projects somehow can proceed. While I am not certain that the LaGuardia extension is justified, the others surely are.]
It seems to me that the state's policies are even harder on upstate communities than NYC. The type of business that locates in Manhattan is less cost sensitive than the manufacturing businesses that have left upstate New York. A fair structure of taxes and services, more in line with the national average, would benefit both upstate and downstate communities.
Yes, as a former resident of Buffalo, I agree that NYS's policies and politics are often hard on upstate communities. Unfortunately, there has been a culture in NYS favoring an approach of always trying to screw the other guy. Of course, this means that you yourself get screwed when the other guy (or region) wins. If everyone in NY would just pay a little more attention to reasonable local approaches, and a little less to trying to get someone else to pay for local benefits, the state would have a healthier political culture. By the way, Senator Schumer has paid a lot of attention to trying to improve the upstate economy. Of course, this is good politics as well as good policy. See today's Buffalo News (www.buffalonews.com) for an article on Buffalo's economic development pitch at a recent NYC business meeting. Schumer addressed the group and discussed upstate business development. I am very impressed by Schumer. Too bad I now live in Chicago, so I can't vote for him.
[Yes, as a former resident of Buffalo, I agree that NYS's policies and politics are often hard on upstate communities. Unfortunately, there has been a culture in NYS favoring an approach of always trying to screw the other guy. Of course, this means that you yourself get screwed when the other guy (or region) wins. If everyone in NY would just pay a little more attention to reasonable local approaches, and a little less to trying to get someone else to pay for local benefits, the state would have a healthier political culture. By the way, Senator Schumer has paid a lot of attention to trying to improve the upstate economy. Of course, this is good politics as well as good policy. See today's Buffalo News (www.buffalonews.com) for an article on Buffalo's economic development pitch at a recent NYC business meeting. Schumer addressed the group and discussed upstate business development. I am very impressed by Schumer. Too bad I now live in Chicago, so I can't vote for him.]
I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why I like the idea of parity with national averages--it provides an easy formula to bring the entire state's expenditures and services under control.
PS--I just read the article you mentioned. There's something very sad about a pitch that essentially goes "businesses will start to relocate to New York State because they're running out of labor elsewhere and gee, look at all the money those states have to spend to build roads and stuff, plus we've lowered our taxes more than any other state even though our combined state and local taxes are still the highest in the continental United States."
From the article:
Schriner said the state's tax structure remains a looming impediment to attracting new or expanding businesses. He noted that he recently talked with officials from one company in Central New York who are planning to relocate out of state largely because of New York's onerous tax burden.
But Governor George E. Pataki, who gave a welcoming speech at Monday's opening ceremonies, told a standing-room-only crowd that state taxes have been slashed by $97 billion since 1995.
"We're cutting taxes far more than any other state in America," said Pataki. "You don't have to look very far to see that is a dramatically different state than it was five or six years ago."
La Guardia? In most studies for potential transit projects, a major EMPLOYMENT center is a key potential destination. In turn just watch intercity passengers at Penn get off ATK and transfer to the subway.
[La Guardia? In most studies for potential transit projects, a major EMPLOYMENT center is a key potential destination. In turn just watch intercity passengers at Penn get off ATK and transfer to the subway.]
The problem is that it would be cheaper to give everybody who goes to Laguardia free taxi rides than to extend the subway. I happen to agree that the project is justified, though, because it will improve airport access for business travellers.
Yes and Southern Pacific said the same about what is now called CalTrain when they still operated it in a manner to make Prendergast proud--BUT twenty years and some improvements to service later the ridership is close to the records from WWII, and growing each month. So how many LaGuardia employees live within the 5 boros anyway?
[Yes and Southern Pacific said the same about what is now called CalTrain when they still operated it in a manner to make Prendergast proud--BUT twenty years and some improvements to service later the ridership is close to the records from WWII, and growing each month. So how many LaGuardia employees live within the 5 boros anyway?]
I'm not sure, but it's presumably a sizeable percentage.
What's amazing about Laguardia is the extraordinarily high demographics of the patrons.
But I'm getting decidedly lazy about digging out facts and figures that have already been posted (or decidedly short of time). Maybe at some point I'll put everything I have up on a web page, because the same issues seem to come up every month or two.
[Sheldon Silver is the enenmy of the people of New York City. Pakaki and Bruno are also the enemies, but they don't pretend otherwise.]
I don't understand Sheldon Silver. He has the power to block this crap--what's his angle?
The Silver Leaf Third Rail endeavored to reach beyond New York and so does the May 2000 edition at rapidtrasit.net which describes the rapid conversion of the Philadelphia system at mid-century from trolleys to buses (National City Lines yet again again).
Also, an unusual item for the bus fans.
Hope you like it.
Neat bus photo (and I'm not a bus fan). The PTC article is a good summary but, at least for me, didn't contain any new information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first trip to Philadelphia was in 1958 just (sigh) after the damage was done. I missed out on Willow Grove run, but I did get to ride the Ardmore car (not PTC, not NCL). Just as an aside, the Ardmore station is still there, and the retail business within is now a pizzeria. My wife (who's from the area) didn't realize that the popular pizza spot was an ex-trolley station until I pointed out the platform shed to her.
Until this article I didn't realize how fast the ax fell or by what a short time I missed it all.
A Motorman on the 7 during the week, and the 2 on weekends said that starting on memorial day, the 2 and 5 will be reversed. No not with their terminals, but with their characteristics. The 2 will be going down Track M, and the 5 will be making local stops in the Bronx, all times except nights, something like the E and F in queens! Is this true?
Eh? The change in patterns of service is supposed to be in effect only during the rush hours. All service frim 238th and 241 Sts via M Track, and all service from Dyre Av operates via the Local Track.
-Stef
I think it would be a great idea. I can't imagine someone who lives in the 241st or 238th area having to travel entirely local if they want to go down the west side.
Service from Dyre will go down the local track in the AM rush and up the local in the PM rush. Service from 241 and 238 will run on M track from north of E. 180 St to south of Jackson Ave during the AM/ PM rush. The service changes will go into effect on Monday, June 5.
I took a ride on the F and E lines today, because those are my home lines. However, I dunno how the Express service works. I was on the F, and the E was local to queens at 2:15 PM this afternoon. Isn't it supposed to be Express? Also, the E was on the local Tracks on the Manhattan bound side. Can someone tell me how this schedule works? Also, an F was ordered by the Tower to go express from Continental because of lateness. Does this mean the F will go on the express on the Middle tracks on Hillside, or will it switch over before that? But there are no Crossovers before that.
HOW DOES THIS WORK?
The E and F are my home lines, too. The "normal" E/F service pattern is thus:
Weekday daylight hours (Both peaks and Middays):
E via Express Queens Plaza thru to Archer
F via Express west of 71 Av, Local east of 71 Av
Evenings, Weekends:
Both via Express west of 71 Av, Local east of 71 Av (due to use of "outer zone" express tracks for storage)
Overnight:
Both via Local
Deviations from the official pattern are by general order (a frequent weekend phenomenon) or to resolve a service problem. If E's were local WEST of 71st Avenue at 2:15 PM on a weekday, then the G and/or R had problems. If E's were local EAST of 71st Avenue, then maybe the tower made an error, or maybe there was some midday storage onthe express tracks.
The F runs local east of Continental, whereas the E runs express during the day. However the E sometimes will run local east of Continental if the express tracks are either blocked by laid-up trains (nights &weekends) or trains are coming in/out of the Jamaica Yard. This is true for the Manhattan-bound E after 10AM on weekdays. It runs local for about an hour because the express tracks are used by dozens of rush hour trains being taken out of service and getting sent into the yard.
Why does the sign say it runs express from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm weekdays, yet most of the time eastbound express is from 8:AM to 8:PM and westbound express is from 6:AM to 6:PM?
It gets better. When the Archer Ave. line opened, the E was listed on maps and station signs as running express east of Continental at all times. BUZZZZZ!!! During nights and weekend, it ran local as it always had. Not that it's such a big deal; it meant stopping at 75th Ave. and Van Wyck Blvd.
Just got back from seeing this movie about a priest and a rabbi in love with their old childhood girlfriend. They ride the subway twice in the movie. I could not see the rollsign or determine the class of car that was shown. Can any of you sub-talkers shed some light on this if you have seen the movie?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
I saw it too. The one sceen that took place in the 70's? (the one with the kids) took place in what looks like an R-32, signed up as an 'R'.
I don't remember the 2nd sceen, which on was it
Thanks, I forgot the first scene with the kids, but there was a second and third scene with either the rabbi or the priest riding the subway.
Chuck Greene
"either the rabbi or the priest riding the subway."
I never heard that one, how does it go? and what happened to the minister? and don't these things usually involve bars?
No, I was just trying to point out one of the main characters was riding the subway in two different scenes. It wasn't a joke like, the "priest, the rabbi and the minister....... "
Thanks for the humor, anyway -very good!
Chuck Greene
Oh, phooey. I had my finger on the rim shot button.
i am seriously considering collecting signatures to get on the ballot for this year's senatorial race...
i am starting a new party... the right to laugh party
i feel that the right to laugh is being infringed upon by the vast majority of people who take themselves too seriously...
if i am elected by the people of new york state i promise to make this state the laughingstock of the entire nation...
In that case the official seal of NY State should be changed to an image of Moe, Larry & Curly ("Hello!....hello!.......hello!).
And it would be fitting that at every press conference after ten mintues of speaking it should degenerate into a spontaneous pie throwing contest...
any thoughts...
Why, soitanly!:-) Not to mention face slapping, eye poking, and anything else the Three Stooges were known for.
Of course, if Hillary were to be elected, the state would become the laughingstock of the country in another way.
What are your campaign promises about public transportation? I'm not concerned about NY's sense of humor. I'd change the party name tot he Right to Laugh on the Subway party. All my friends say you can't do anything. I met a friend at the T2 bus stop and he said how he was reading the rules for riding the bus and they made it seem all you could do was sit and stare.
Isn't that what Rudy is doing?
If you get elected senator, the state will be like a huge zoo. Mental outpatients will roam free searching the streets for food (while laughing and taking the subway). The third rail cover will be removed and the voltage will be upped to 22 kV DC--like mainline catenary power in Europe (except in DC). This'll keep the morons away from the trains. A railroad causeway could be built across the Hudson to link the HBLR to NY so mental outpatients from the Jersey City Medical Center and Ward's Island Psychiatric can mingle. Certain highways will be converted to rail. The people suffering from the ensuing traffic rill abandon their cars and take the train. Railfans should get government positions and control all the other aspects of society. And of course the Redbird fleet will be upgraded to maglevs (but still preserved)and so will the tunnel tracks. A 150 mph levitating Redbird is what THIS city needs!
LOL
Daniel ;-)
How about Levitating Lardbuckets doing 150 mph? Now, THAT'S a knee slapper!
if i am elected by the people of new york state i promise to make this state the laughingstock of the entire nation...
Too Late!
i just received an e-mail from someone far down in the switching speed party offering me their endorsement... their entire platform rests on having all subway car controllers wired down to two positions: off and switching speed... this would have immediate benefits... all complicated and expensive controllers could be replaced by a cheap toggle switch which could be bought right off the rack at radio shack... the reduced maximum speed of the cars to 4 mph would slash power consumption by 90%, reduce wear and tear on the cars and tracks, and turn the current average one way commute time of 45 minutes to approximately 3 hours, thus resulting in the work place being shifted to the subways... all subway cars would have computer workstations installed so that people could accomplish a full day's work on their way to work...
i am also courting the endorsement of the flat wheel party... if i can get the endorsement of several of these fringe parties, i feel i can offer a definite alternative to the mainstream party choices...
Boo! Hiss!
You might as well have bicycle pedals as a means of propulsion if the trains are going to be that slow. Hey, now that's a thought: install pedals at every seat, so the more passengers you have, the more pedal power you get. Good for those CPR express runs, don't you know. Not to mention getting a good aerobic workout..
Kind of reminds me of a joke I heard from a high school English teacher regarding slaves on a rowboat.
The slave master comes to them and says, "I've got some good news and some bad news. The good news is you get a 30-minute break. The bad news: after that, the captain wants to go water skiing." When the teacher got to the water skiing part, she burst out laughing.
Has anyone heard any new information regarding the old LIRR Rockaway line. Do NIMBY's still rule the day?
[Has anyone heard any new information regarding the old LIRR Rockaway line. Do NIMBY's still rule the day?]
The last serious proposal to reopen the line was a few years ago and involved using it for Kennedy Airport service. It didn't get far and before long was dropped in favor of the Van Wyck Airtrain route. Any proposals since then have been nothing but idle chatter.
Last I heard its been abandoned since the early sixties.
Abandoned in 1962. Looked at as a way of connecting LaGuardia and JFK airports to Manhattan during the 1980"s and 1990's then forgotten about and replaced with the silly elevated LRT over the Van Wyck to LIRR in downtown Jamaica thing. What a great resource the alignment is.....Could relieve terrible traffic on Woodhaven and Cross Bay Blvds. Could provide a much more direct connectioon than the Van Wyck thing! Opinions????
You are correct, but in the political world thats not always enough.
avid
It's absolutely the best way for the airport link.
Just add a connection with the Atlantic Ave. line to Brooklyn, Jamaica and east to LI, and
I meant to say: Just add connections with the Atlantic Ave. line for service to Brooklyn, Jamaica and eastern LI, and reopen Whitepot Junction in Rego Park for service to Penn Station, and you would have the perfect JFK link.
Maybe that's the problem - it's too good!
I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the
history of public transportation!
Agreed! Airtrain is a waste of untold proportions, even by New York standards. Would anybody like to comment on who the ridership will be? Would anybody like to comment on the thinking of the Port Authority?
05/02/2000
Re: The abandoned LIRR Rockaway line.
I'll sum this up simply:
This is the best idea for a one seat ride to Manhattan.
Transit enthusiasts (railfans) agree this is the best idea.
The Port Authority is not interested in using this ROW.
The MTA probably isn't interested in using this ROW.
The NIMBY's who reside along the line don't want it.
The Rockaway Line idea is dead. AIRTRAIN is the final solution.
Good ideas always die young in New York! This is what I observe.
Bill Newkirk
"The final solution"? Where have I heard that phrase before?
Especially on yesterdays date. Holocost Memorial
Thinking?
[I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the history of public transportation!]
LOL, for that $1.5 billion, we're getting a speedy, one-seat ride from JFK airport to JFK airport! It's truly the train to nowhere.
*But,* and here's the big but, the state and the PA are looking for a private partner to provide one seat access to Penn. They'll still have wasted several hundred million dollars on the Van Wyck extension and the Jamaica station, but at least we'll have a service that someone other than Pedro the night watchman will use.
>>I will say it again, Airtrain will be the bigges white elephant in the
history of public transportation! <<<
Know what? Let's not pronounce the corpse deceased until we've had a chance to see if it's twitching. I'll ride Airtrain when it opens, and make my opinion known then. But I won't comment till then. I'd've preferred the Rock link, but the local yokels will never let that happen.
www.forgotten-ny.com
As opposed to the 2nd Ave STUBway and other projects that never got out of the planning stage the AirTrain is being built as we speak here all the way to Jamaica. That means that a ROW and track will exist. If it does produce the traffic & kind of customers that the Port Auth thinks, THEN we can hope/push for them to do something better with it.
Even though I too think the old Rockaway branch would have made better since, there just ain't no way it's ever going to happen now that the ROW is taking another route. So, what's the use of continuing to beat a dead horse ?????
Mr t__:^)
I have found several uses the residents along the line (N. of Metropolitan) have discovered:
1 - Dumping Ground
2 - Picnicing area
3 - Place to think and reflect while sitting on 3rd rail
4 - Place to hike
5 - Secret passage to get to various streets (every cross street has a way up the embankment or a hole in the fence, check out Dartmouth)!
6 - Bleacher space for little league games
7 - Place to let little kids explore while parents watch their other kids play on the little league team.
8 - Backyard extensions.
In short, local opposition would be high.
Questions: What is that really long bedsheet doing there?
Why are there tons of trees blocking the track to the tunnel under the main line(more tha usual)?
What happened to the bridge over the Lower Montauk?
Why are some ties in almost usable condition, while others are incredibly rotted (good one right next to 3 rotten ones). Even the newest ties in the last replacement should have rotted by now!
Where's the ballast?
[What happened to the bridge over the Lower Montauk?]
That's a good question - I've wondered that myself. It's been gone for as long as I can remember.
way way back the use of cinders for ballast was very common , but the cinder size was small so it compacted between the blue stone gravel.
A fan trip and exploratory dig must be planned.
avid
A good candidate for criminals doing community service , clean it up!
avid
The connection to Atlantic Avenue going westbound is still there; all that needs to be done is to rebuild the crossover. It never went eastbound. Perhaps a connection going eastbound could be established with the Montauk Line further up the way.
The Airtrain is a boondoggle. Nothing more. It is utterly useless. I can't picture anybody coming from Manhattan being willing to use it.
The bloody NIMBYS - a pox on all their houses; and flat tires for all those school buses that have stolen half the Woodhaven station.
Wayne
How come everyone can knock Salaam for knocking the R142 because no one has ridden it yet but all the same people are knocking Airtrain without giving it the same chance they say we should give t the R142?
1) Because there are a lot of us and only one of him?
2) Because he has annoyed so many of us in so many other ways?
3) Because the complaints about Airtrain are based, in part, on facts that are already known, such as its route?
4) Because New Yorkers wouldn't be happy unless we're complaining about something?
05/03/2000
Sorry Jeff, Although I haven't knocked knocked Salaam for his R-142 views, I do however knock AIRTRAIN for it's routing. The abandoned LIRR Rockaway line was ignored and a $5.00 ride will take you to Jamaica station and not midtown Manhattan!
But the AIRTRAIN people are saying this leaves an opening for a ONE SEAT RIDE to Manhattan. That's a promise with no teeth as far as I'm concerned. Remember the last time New York had a promise like that? "We're going to tear down that rusty old Second Avenue elevated and replace it with a subway!" Wasn't that some 70 years ago?
Bill Newkirk
I remember a one seat ride, it was called the Train to the Plane, opps sorry you had to take a shuttle bus to the train, just like in Boston and other places.
[But the AIRTRAIN people are saying this leaves an opening for a ONE SEAT RIDE to Manhattan. That's a promise with no teeth as far as I'm concerned. Remember the last time New York had a promise like that? "We're going to tear down that rusty old Second Avenue elevated and replace it with a subway!" Wasn't that some 70 years ago?]
Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.
05/04/2000
[Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.]
So one man has the state, the PA and the airlines behind him? And AIRTRAIN will be a TWO seat ride?
Something's fishy here!
Bill Newkirk
I've walked through some parts of the former LIRR Rockaway line at around Forest Park, and it is pretty neat. Trees and shrubs grow through the tracks and thrid rail. I was thinking that it would a neat field trip to explore the rest of the abandoned ROW up to the point where the A joins it. I think a metalworker created a giant iron spider that he suspended from a signal mast (it can be seen from the A to Lefferts on the left side). Would anyone be interested in this?
Daniel
It's been done. Recently. Probably will be done again.
[[Apparently there's a fellow in the state government who's been pushing the one seat ride very hard. Don't know if that means it will happen, but he has the state, the PA, and even the airlines behind him.]
So one man has the state, the PA and the airlines behind him? And AIRTRAIN will be a TWO seat ride? Something's fishy here!]
Your guess is as good as mine. But I gather that the two seat ride was some kind of compromise just to get the damn thing built. For one thing, I don't think it's legal to use airport fees to finance a non-dedicated line--i.e., you can spend lots of money to run a dedicated line all the way to a City, but you aren't allowed to save money. There's something else about the airport having to be the terminating line. I also heard something about NJ PA representatives blocking the one seat ride at one point (rather than offering a one seat ride to EWR too, instead of that braindead monorail). Damn bureaucrats! Also, there was some airline opposition--they don't want to attract skells to the airport.
Now the PA is looking for a private company to offer one seat service. That, I imagine, is a way to get around the Federal regs.
Airport improvements are funded by Passenger Facilities Charges (PFC's) which are actually a surcharge tacked onto the price of every airline ticket. These monies are intended for aviation related costs and improvements. The airlines get to approve any uses to which these are put. They do not want to get into a position of having these airport funds used for mass transit purposes. It was reportedly a struggle even to get approval for the line to Jamaica. As far as the PA struggle, from what has been reported in the Times, there is outright warfare going on between NY and NJ. I think maybe it is time to dissolve the whole PA and replace it with a new organization. The NY advocates certainly make it seem like NJ does disproportionately well off the present arrangement.
In my case, #3 is true. How can they be so short-sighted?
Imbeciles. Morons. Chowderheads.
wayne
ALL school busses should get flat tires, they should also thoroughly burn (asssuming no people inside or nearby) and disintegrate into a wad of twisted steel.
Or tunnel to the IND Queens line. I forget which station has the tunnel stubs for the "eastern" crosstown line...
The tunnel stubs are e of Jamaica Center Station On the E Line. There are simular track stubs e of Euclid Avenue Station On A Line That Continue east under pitkin avenue Past Pitkin Yard tracks to the Brooklyn City Line.
They actually run under the center mall dividing North and South Conduit avenue. This line had been planned to run under or over Linden Blvd to the Queens/Nassau boarder.
Ithink it would have been eaiser to run the line under or open cut on the grass mall between North conduit and Belt Parkway all the way to Rosedale!
avid
There has been several threads on this subject recently, even a "Field Trip" down the line ... search by keyword to get a load of input.
Mr t__:^)
Something interesting was covered on last night's "Extra" TV program: they did a piece on the youth of "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" host Regis Philbin. They showed his high school and the block where he lived (the house he was born and raised in was shown -- I believe Kevin Walsh has a shot of it at his www.forgotten-ny.com site).
Of interest to railfans was a bit where the reporter interviewed one of his Bronx-buddies who embarrassingly mentioned that as kids Regis and some of his friends got arrested for placing stones on the tracks of the elevated line (they didn't mention which one, but I'd guess it was the Pelham line?). They did it in anticipation of watching the rocks "shoot out" as a train went over them, but didn't realize the danger they could have done if this "trick" didn't work out as planned.
Quite an interesting piece.
Anyone else catch this last night?
Doug aka BMTman
Which high school did Regis Philbin go to? Someone said it was the same one *I* graduated from.....
05/02/2000
[Of interest to railfans was a bit where the reporter interviewed one of his Bronx-buddies who embarrassingly mentioned that as kids Regis and some of his friends got arrested for placing stones on the tracks of the elevated line (they didn't mention which one, but I'd guess it was the Pelham line?). They did it in anticipation of watching the rocks "shoot out" as a train went over them, but didn't realize the danger they could have done if this "trick" didn't work out as planned.]
Doug,
Wouldn't it be funny if they slipped this question on "Who wants to be a millionaire?"
[OK now are you ready to try for $100,000 ?]
As a child yours truly would place the following on the rail of the track in elevated station near his Bronx home:
(A) a subway token
(B) a rock
(C) a cheeseburger
(D) a goldfish
.......You know Reeg!...I'm going to have to use a life line......can I call my friend heypaul!.......
Bill Newkirk
LOL
I heard on the news that when the service changes in the Bronx go into effect, only 7 trains will be stopping at the local stations with the #5 as opposed to 12 trains with the # 2. The # 2 will now run at 108% capacity as opposed to its present 98%
The service changes are supposed to alleviate overcrowding and congestion. I'm sorry - I didn't major in math in college. But HOW EXACTLY are these numbers proving that congestion will be alleviated?
And another thing - WHY are there TWO #5's? Why not make the #5's on the White Plains Road line go local? Are we to assume that the people on the Dyre Avenue line have no where to go in the morning? This will add an additional 15 minutes of ride time to a train that doesn't all that frequently to begin with.
I have ridden both the East side and West side lines - the East side line gets VERY crowded south of 149th. To add more passengers to a line (Dyre #5) that runs every 15-20 min during rush hour makes no sense. Whoever doesn't believe this should take a ride on the southbound # 5 in the morning. Passengers are packed in like sardines most times even before 180th Street. If you want to make such a drastic service change, why not add more Dyre #5 trains?
Look at the track map of the area around East 180th Street.
When this change goes into effect, all trains going to/from Bronx Park East will use the crossovers just south of the station, and arrive/depart E 180 on the center track. The delays are caused when Dyre Avenue trains cross over the local tracks to/from the center track at E 180.
When the change goes into effect, maybe they'll hold the Dyre 5 local trains for the arriving 2/5 express trains.
["When the change goes into effect, maybe they'll hold the
Dyre 5 local trains for the arriving 2/5 express trains."]
I'd like to offer the following:
Observation 1... Holding the express negates the time savings offered by express operation. Why go express to save 5 minutes if you're going to lose 4 of those minutes waiting for a local?
Observation 2... In general, holding trains during rush hours results in a net DISBENEFIT - it punishes large numbers of riders for already being on the train, while helping only a few people who are not. For every person who benefits (by not having to wait for the next train), at least 10 other people on the held train are delayed. Who is more important?
Observation 3... If every train must be held, there must be TOO MUCH RUNNING TIME.
In general, during rush hours, trains are not held to make connections - at least by TA people; riders are another story. Every time we don't hold for a connection, someone complains; anytime we do make the connection, someone complains. Net result - forget about connections.
As for Observation 3, if anything during rush hours there is not enough running time for 2 service. Rush hour running time is scheduled at 2 minutes longer than midday service ( or in prior years, than midnight service). Because of trains being crossed in front of me, my first trip on the 2 as a TO, I was already 13 minutes late by the time I got to 149 St/ GC, starting from 241.
wel to repsond to the the point you made about the east side and the additional riders onthe 5 line you are right. But look at all the talkt about building an extension of the LIRR and linking it to the Lexington avenue line BEFORE introducing the 2nd avenue line. sounds pretty retarded doesn't it? cutting local service saves them money so to be honest there attitude to those riders is they really don't have any other resources to look to. Oh, and don't even think that they will really do any serious schedule adjustments o even add on more # 4 service on the east side or 3# service on the west side to make up for the gaps.Yeah it will allow 2 trains to pass but I don't see to amy people complainig about how long they have to wait on the trai nto get off at their stop as opposed to those who will have to wait on one to show up.New York One did a study on the # 5 an the service north of 180th was terrible because there was not enough service well it going to get worse.So if you look at it from a business they standpoint they took what was Benificial for only them and basically screwwed with son=mething that was not a problem as some may make it out to be . i mean what would you want a train to be held for 2 minutes but will show up or no trai nat all? those people out there are getting a royale screwing
question is there a transfer to the # 4 near this area ( s) and or stations ( s) ??
Not until Mott Avenue, quite a ways down the line.
Of course, you could always get the BX9 at East Tremont or go up to Pehlam Pkway to get the BX12 but who's going to fight their way across the Bronx on a bus just to catch another subway train?
Wayne
...........oh well thought there was a transfer point at the 149th or someting like that station !!!
Yes there is. I have no idea why Mr. SlantR40 chooses the old name to answer a modern informational question
Mott Avenue=Old name for 149th Street/Grand Concourse.
If all White Plains Road trains from 241 or 238 are going to run express south of 180St, and only the Dyre Ave. trains will run local south of 180th St., then apparently there is low passenger count at stations between 149 St. and 180 St. and huge demand north of 180th on W.P.Rd.
Dyre Avenue passengers have similar service to before because at 180 St. they can get a train every 2 minutes running express. W.P.Rd passengers will have better service, because instead of 2/3 of their trains being local and them all getting off at 180 St to get an express, all of their trains will be express.
All the discussion of service south of 149 St. is unnecessary because people switch trains to get what they want at 149 St. and 180 St. anyway.
Really, the only big change is that people along Westchester Avenue south of 180 St. are getting half the rush hour service they used to get, but it is the same rush hour service that people get on the M line, many J/Z stops, the F south of Kings Highway, the B south of Bay Parkway, the G in Brooklyn, etc. And people at 174 and W.Farms Sq can always take a northbound train (one every 90 seconds) and get an express at 180 St. I think that is the only raw deal on the line, people at 5 stops suddenly getting less rush hour service. Everybody north of 180 St. on either line gets improved or barely changed rush hour service.
i am very gratified to announce the support of my bid to be the next senator of new york from the following groups:
1) railfan enthusiasts of sheepshead bay
2) railairconditioner enthusiasts of sheepshead bay
3) sounds of the r-9's preservation society
4) sheepshead bay chapter of railfans anonymous
5) kings county survivors of psychosis support group
.... I SECOND YOUR NOMINATION............applause!!!!!.......applause!!!.......
The procastenators Society has yet to endorse a candidate
avid
A platform must be built, on a salvaged R/33 single. The better to tour the state. Your opinions on Beruit, and just he was a good ball player for a white dude. Your opinions on the Abortion bill, not wether or not it was paid. Your stand on capital punishment and the rest of the state as well.
We must curry favor and rice is nice too.
Let the pundits beware as well as the pundnots. Vote and often
avid
Very funny, avid....LOL!!!
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
......... I second the nomination for heypaul..................... applause !!! .......... applause !!!......
Also the James Madison High School, Brooklyn New York class of 1960 Reunion Committee of the World
So, I haven't been able to keep up on the messages since last Wednesday, and now there are about 1300 new messages I have yet to even scan for interest. Never again shall I upgrade 2 computers simultaneously, no matter how easy it is...
Can anyone tell me if I missed any interesting threads?
-Hank
[So, I haven't been able to keep up on the messages since last Wednesday, and now there are about 1300 new messages I have yet to even scan for interest. Never again shall I upgrade 2 computers simultaneously, no matter how easy it is...
Can anyone tell me if I missed any interesting threads?]
Let's see ...
There have been ongoing threads about R-68 hatred, abandoned movie theaters, comparisons of European vs. US passenger rail equipment, and filthy LIRR trains, to name a few that I've been following. Aside from some criticism of the MTA bond issue, there haven't been too many political/economic discussions. And oh yes, Salaamallah has been spouting his typical nonsense.
don't forget avid's stories and heypaul's senator campaign run
Thanks for the the positive mention, I was afraid I was posting for my own enjoyment. I guess I know how a cook feels when nobody say anything.
avid
Thanks....doesn't look like I missed much new, then.
-Hank :)
Mechanik doesn't seem to be working on my computer. I downloaded Mechanik, Mechanik Deluxe, Both the English and Duch version and it still doesn't work. Whenever I press the right door close/open, left door close/open, and the door chime buttion the game frezses. Also when I download different routes it comes out really messed up. I have a new computer, with windows 98, Pentium III, and I don't know what to do! HELP!!!
I forgot to mention that on the main menu it says options but you can select it.
I have the same as you but with a Pentium II and it works fine.
I also noticed the thing w/ the options. What is up with that?
Well, I have a Pentium 120 with 32 MB RAM on Windows 98 Pre-release Beta 3, and it runs great, though when I use door open and close as well as door chime it freezes for half a second, but that's just because of my weak processor. To load other maps you must dump everything for that map into the Mechanik folder and overwrite files (make sure you save a copy of the layout you're replacing, the BMPs as well as TRASA.DAT).
It says options in English? I have the pure Polish version.
The English version is at http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/SimMechanik/ go there and click on download and they have a patch to turn eveything to english.
My game also stops for half a second, then it starts up again but i can't press anything.
BTW, there is no Options menu, it's a fluke from the programers
A use for the Options menu:
Speed Measurement: MPH km/h
Distance Measurement: Miles Kilometers Chaining
It never shows up. How can I get it to work?
I think his saying ehat it could be used for.
That's right!
Since there is no options menu, do they force users to use the infinitely superior km and km/h measurements?
1. Those were suggestions.
2. My idea is that, from the programmer's point of view, since Poland uses the Metric system, Metric is better.
How could you still have the Windows 98 Beta? Did you set the clock on your computer for before 12/31/98?
No, I replaced IO.SYS with the one from the real version.
That's not bad... I have a Pentium MMX 200Mhz running Windows 98. When I start Mechanik my system crashes. I have to Start Windows and boot into DOS to run the game. If it freezes you should try this. Remember that you need to have MS-DOS sound drivers for the sounds effects in MS-DOS.
Does anybody remember a scrapped Long Island Railroad electric car that was visible from Shea Stadium and the Van Wyck? How did it get there? It was removed years ago; not exactly sure when.
Welcome to a new poster. As mentioned several weeks ago, there is a cut-off from the Port Washington Line that used to go up into Whitestone. That is how the car probably got there. That section of track has been used before for that purpose. I remember in the early 70's some of the old double-deckers were kept there and then fell on their sides after rails shifted because of a heavy rain.
Also, some of the old heavyweight parlor cars were scrapped there as well. I also remember in 1979 or 1980 seeing a pair of burned M-1's -- I believe those were 9175/9176.
I think 175/6 was the pair that burned roughly a month after delivery.
That's the ones......
I think the experimental turbine car burned and were disposed of at that location. The time frame fits.
avid
No, these were definitely 9175-9176, which were M-1's that burned when they were VERY new. I just checked some slides and at one end, the car numbers show up. No sign of the gas turbine car there. Just these two M-1's, some old heavyweight parlors, and a couple MP54 types.
The experimental gas turbine car (GT-1) went on to become the gas turbine-electric (GT-2), which was the test car for the 4000-series turbine/electric M-1 type trains.
That was the original #9625, wrecked at Babylon, cut in two and dumped in that spot. Last I saw it there was summer of 1982.
Another car wears #9625 now - don't know what its original number was.
Wayne
Not that we have many of them, but a major 'GO' (not sure what SEPTA lingo is for them) was in place on the Broad St Subway this past weekend and will also be in effect on 5/19-21. Apparently the southbound local track is being worked on and is out of service from Erie to Girard during these periods. The locals and Ridge spurs use the southbound express track and bypass Allegheny, Susquehanna-Dauphin and Columbia, stopping at the express platform at North Phila.
What was interesting was the local media spin on this. 'Metro' advised southbound patrons to ride past their stops and cross over at either North Phila or Girard for the northbound local. It also explained that extra Route C bus service would be provided between Erie and Girard for those who wanted to go direct (although the transfer would require payment for a transfer or use of a TransPass). The Inquirer noted that service was not being offered at the three southbound stops affected. KYW newsradio had a different story almost each time it did a traffic report (every 10 minutes on the 2's, as it says). A couple of the TV news reports I saw also misreported this.
I found another source to confirm the gear ratios of all NYCT cars R-10 and up. Here are a few interesting facts to note.
As I originally stated, all cars (except as noted) were built with 7.235:1 gear ratios.
The 75' cars were delivered with gear ratios of 5.087:1
Two notable exceptions are the R-11 at 7.17:1 and the R32 with Pioneer trucks at 9.39:1
Is the wheel size the same for all cars. Gear ration, motors and wheel size will combine to give an expected level or performance.
What size wheel does the MTA use? Chicago was 26" and is now 28."
Standard new wheel for all NYCT cars is 34 inches.
in todays los angeles edition of the daily news tuesday may 2 2000 article TRANSIT WISH LIST by alexa haussler
i will try to make it to the point ...the san fernando valley expected to get $400 million to ease traffic congestion and
improve puiblic transit by some bus transportation sceme of some sort as a part of a $ 15 billion dollar statewide .
This latest jive & bull transportation initiative scheme to unclog local streets even though most expressed doubts that a high sped busway is the best use of $ 400 million dollars for the valley section of los angeles county only ??? what ????? why not the idea of trolley buses light rail subway etc...and why only in the valley ? how about the rest of us ?? census 2000 B.S. again ?? we had a rail system once before !!
what was missing in my opinion is to neglect the subject of some type of light to regular rail transit which at least try to extend the red line and that might start to take some strain off the overcrowded streets & freeways etc.....
............ ""THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES "'........
I rode on PATH for the first time today and I was very impressed. I took both the 33rd street line and the WTC to Newark line. Alot of curves in Manhattan, but those trains handle them beautifully. Also got good speed in both tubes. The WTC one is very straight and fast.
Also nice above ground stretch after Journal Square and into Newark. All the railroad bridges and power plants made for quite a sight.
And you can sit in the front car and look out the window!
I notice PATH uses similar signals to NYC subway, and uses tripcocks for speed control, just like subways.
Train ride was very smooth and quiet, and much better than the LIRR. I like the PATH cars, they seem to be pretty "state of the art".
Anyone can tell the difference between a P3 and P4 car?
The signal aspects are different.
Once again... PA1 PA2 and PA3 cars are painted aluminum with 2 doors per side, and are numbered in the 100, 600, and 700 series. The PA4's are shiny stainless steel with 3 doors per side and are numbered in the 800 series. The easiest way to differentiate the PA1 PA2 and PA3 classes is by car number, look it up on the roster in the PATH section. Additionally the PA3's have interior lighted destination signs over two of the sets of doors, one on each side and one on each end of the car. The PA4's have lighted destination signs on the interior car ends. The PA3's doors make a distinctive clicking when closing that none of the other models make.
05/03/2000
[The PA3's doors make a distinctive clicking when closing that none of the other models make.]
My friend is a conductor on PATH and he says the PA-3 (Hawker-Siddely) cars are problematic and may be the first to go whenever the pA-5's arrive.
Bill Newkirk
I like PATH too, I rode out to Newark a couple of weeks ago, on a rainy day, and on the way back the front "storm" door was leaking so badly I had to stand back because water was spraying up into the air. Has this happened to anyone else?
I noticed a conductor riding in the second car, I guess there are platform length issues?
I see the "elevator" on track maps in Hoboken; Is it still in use? Is it worth riding over there to check out?
Dave
> I noticed a conductor riding in the second car, I guess there are
> platform length issues?
Standard PATH practice is to ride at the first operating position - in the first car if doors open on the left, second car if they open on the right. But, the eastbound trains to World Trade Center have a platform length issue at Exchange Place; the eastbound platform there is only 7 cars long due to the proximity of the interlocking at the west end. So they pull one car past into the tunnel and the conductor only opens the rear 7 cars.
> I see the "elevator" on track maps in Hoboken; Is it still in use?
I think it's still there but I doubt it's used any longer. Either way you can't see it from the platform and only briefly from the head end of a train departing track 3 (usually to WTC). They want to tear down the headhouse on the surface that it raises into (a long narrow building adjacent to Observer Highway at the foot of Washington St. inside the Hoboken Terminal yard)
I was told that that elevator once had a direct track connection in-street to the Lackawanna. Anyone konw for sure/have any pix?
05/03/2000
Sorry, no pix here. But that building did have a track conection to the Lackawanna since that's how the new Hudson & Manhattan cars were delivered. Which series, I'm not sure. I doubt the elevator is used let alone if it works, there seems no logical use for it anyway.
Bill Newkirk
Probably the original 'black cars' were delivered that way in 1908....
... as well as the Black Cars of 1910, 1911, 1915, 1925 and 1927.
All PATH cars before CLASS=K/MP-51 (EXCEPT MP-38 and CLASS=D) were referred to as "Black Cars".
wayne
Would any cars have been delivered that way after the PRR connection was opened? A lot easier to use a direct track connection, as opposed to an awkward elevator.....I suppose depending on the supplier of the equipment....
[Track connection to the Lackawanna]
That would make sense,as the building served as the line's car shop before Henderson St. opened. Cars were lifted out for maintenance.
In later years,the building was used by the track department. The flat cars would be cut away from the work motors and raised to shop level to be loaded with rail,ties,etc. Inside the shop was a huge hydraulic press that was used to bend rail to fit the curves.
The track Dept. moved to new quarters at "C" Yard in Jersey City a few years ago. AFAIK,the building is unused at present. The elevator,now a spur track, is sometimes used for storage of MOW equipment.
The PA-1 cars are a year younger than the R36 cars, and were made by the same company that made the last of the Redbirds (St. Louis Car). The PA-2 cars are about as old as the R38 cars. The PA-3 cars are about as old as some R44's, and the youngest passenger cars, the PA-4 cars, are about as old as some R68 cars. They don't do bad for cars that are about as old as the Redbirds. The Redbirds don't do so badly themselves, either.
And one year older than the R26 is the venerable Class K/MP-51, 1958 stock, which are still in work service for PATH, about 20 or so of them; including one in PATH 60's livery.
Has anyone at the museums thought of inquiring about preserving a Class K/MP-51 car (I realize they are married pairs in some cases)?
They are of historical significance because they are the first fleet of rapid transit cars to be air-conditioned. They had said it could't be done prior to then. Also built by St.Louis Car.
Wayne
05/03/2000
John,
I take it you're new to this website? I don't know if you're very young or from out of town, but you did miss The H&M class K cars which were retired in the eighties when the PA-4's arrived. I miss those cars with their wide LOW-V doors, padded bench seating and incandescent bullseye lighting. Add to this being air conditioned too!
Bill Newkirk
PATH/H&M Class=K
Yes, they are sorely missed too by yours truly. And their A/C was in working order last time I rode one, which was WTC to Hoboken, sometime around 1981.
Some cars were green inside, some grey, others pink, and even light blue. Their PCC saucer lites were impeccable. And the songs they sang in the curves- I thought the PA-1/2/3 cars were bad - the Class K were absolutely operatic.
wayne
Those were great cars if for nothing else than they disproved all the TA's whining in the 1960s about how they could never air-condition the subways, especially the IRT, because there just wasn't enough space in the cars.
Were it not for the Class K cars (and the PA-1s), air conditioning would have undoutably come to the NYC subway system 10 to 15 years later than it did (try to picture an R-44 with those sooty R-38/40 fan vents on the ceiling, because the TA/MTA would have definetly held out at least until the mid-1970s if they could have).
The Ks always remainded me of one of those World's Fair Low-Vs on the outside, and something like an old New York Central commuter car on the inside. They also stir up what few memories I still have of Hudson Terminal, since there were always some parked there.
One of the main reasons the TA FINALLY adopted AC was that Mayor Lindsay pressured them into doing it (although he had PATH to hold up as an example...)...Another thing that Lindsay accomplished was making the TA look for a more modern car design; hence the Slant R40..right Wayne??
That is basically correct, although the R40 design proved to be problematic, and that's where the R40M and R42 came in, and later on, all that wonderful hardware you see adorning each and every slanted nose.
Wayne
I had been told that the original design for the R40 (as produced by Raymond Loewy) was for 5 car sets with A and B cars. The A cars would have a 15 degree slope at one end each, these would bracket 3 blind motors with flat bulkheads. The doors at the #1 end of the A cars would be locked, isolating each half of the train.
The design as built was for all identical "A" type cars with 7 degree slants, leading to a set of porches between each set and decreasing seating capacity. Anyone know if this is true?
I also heard an anecdote about when the cars were new. A maintainer at 207th Street had no use for the fibreglass ends and punched the side of one, cracking it with his bare hand. Sounds a bit like a "tall tale" but feasible for a wannabe boxer type. Anyone know if this is true?
Perhaps "Mr R40" has the expertise here!
I can not a test to the truth of this statement.
I always wanted to see a consist of :
1) a slant R/40 married to a R/40m
2) a pair of R/40s x 3
3) followed by a R/40m married to the remaining slant R/40
/====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====||====\
I must run before Wayne reads this,
avid
|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''
Nice, but could you explain? I seem to be missing your point.
avid
R68(D) & R40 (Q) on the el structure with station.
...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...|...
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
Q /====||====\/====||====\/====||====\/====||====\
|---------- Brighton Beach ------------------------------------]
D [====][====][====][====][====][====][====][====]
|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''|'''
No point, Jorge is just illustrating. Nice illustration.
Which one is #4246?
Wayne
They used to do stuff like that all the time back in the late 60s and early 70s; mix Slants with R38s, Slants with R40Ms, Slants with R42s, R40Ms with R42s (they still do THAT) -
I wonder how #4461 is making out in her transformation from R40M to Slant R40. She received the nose of #4260, who dashed himself against a curtain wall in the tunnel west of 9 Avenue, and she will also get #4260's number, making the SHE a HE. She took a nasty bop on the bonnet there back on June 5, 1995. Her "A" end was all mashed up. And the poor motorman was killed, too.
Wayne
I know of the mixed married pairs, I'm suggesting two devorces and two remarriages.
/====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====|-|====\
avid
Yes, the days of smorgasbord trains on the B division, when you could find up to five different car types in the same 10-car train. On second thought, if you had four different married pairs, plus one R-16 and one R-10, you'd have six different car types. Oy-oy-oy...
They were more likely to do something like that on the "A" division. I rode a smorgasbord #3 train back in Jan.1969 that had R14, R15, R17, R21, R22, and R29 all mixed into one 9-car train.
wayne
Not likely. The TA liked its married pair SMEE concepts.
Isn't this still posible, odd & even, odd & even?
avid
The "K" were by far the most "moosical" at Hudson Terminal. My very first encounter with a PATH train featured #1207, who rolled slooooowly into Hudson Terminal, screaming like a wounded banshee as she came. #1207 had a light blue interior.
What was parked on the inside pocket track? Why, it was a train of Black Cars, albeit in yellow work livery.
Wayne
PATH cars have always been the sopranos of the New York area subways system squeals, and not just because they go to New Jersey. The IRT and BMT squeals are more in the tenor range, as far as metal against metal squealing wheels go.
did you ever notice how path trains tend to bounce a little bit more ???
They were also a relatively QUIET car too.....
K Class = relatively quiet cars
Yes, I thought so too, especially with the blowers going. Especially on the straight tube stretches. When they got into the tight spots, or in the Hudson Terminal Loop, hold your ears (unless you like wheel music like I do).
Wayne
.... i remember the ACF pre world war 2 cars in path back in the 1950s !!
those were the good old days !!
Of course, back then it was the Hudson & Manhattan RR, since PATH as an acronym didn't exist until 1963 when the Port Authority renamed it.
Or Hudson Tubes
No one ever seemed to call it that, everyone called it the "Hudson Tubes".
On my way home in the evening, I try to time so I catch a Rock PK "A" at 8th Ave and 42nd. They usually have seats avaible, however it seems that all to often the seats have large pools of water in them.
The cars are clean, smell clean and look clean. I suspect the interiors are washed, but please wipe the seats!
avid reader (likes his seat dry)
If it's a R38 and raining outside... good luck... that is a genuine swimming pool. The water leakage problemn is so bad on those cars that the water actually pours in from the roof.
NOPE, not an R/38. It is almost always an R/44. Each seat has a pool of its own. This goes for latereral and longitudinal.In an effort to preserve what dignity I have, I have taken to carry paper towels (6) for just this event. I try to warn off others, but some are to quick or ignore other people on subways. Sadly its amuseing to watch the expression change on their faces as the cold wetness gives them a wakeup call.
avid
ps last evenings train was a successful dry run !
Sound like the train went through the car wash at 207 Yard and ddin't have time to fully dry before going back in service
That would fit. I guess the force of the water pressure forces the windows open and hoses all the seats.
The window latches must be wearing a little.
avid
Or maybe they forgot to close the doors while the train was going through the car wash...:-) Oops!
all of the buses in atlanta 1984 1988 leaked like there was no roof on them !
everytime it rained there !! ( except for the old flexible and old gm & gmcs !! ).........
Here goes:
My dream opens at Union Square on the Lex. An ex-R-21/22 work car is on the uptown express track, piloted by none other than the instructor who was on our J train last October. And he remembered me! He said the work car was heading back to the Bronx, and asked where I was headed. When I said Grand Central, he offered me a lift on the work car. Cool. We get in, he closes the doors, and wraps the controller from a dead stop. Now, in my dream, the curve at Union Square was just to the north of the station, instead of in the middle of it. This work car squealed around the curve, and once it straightened out, we were off to the races. It got up to 50-55 in about two seconds, and 23rd, 28th, and 33rd Sts. were blurs. I tried to spot the abandoned 18th St. station, but missed it. I'm thinking, man oh man, the R-10s were nothing like this.
Then I woke up. You gotta love that Park Ave. straightaway.
[in my dream, the curve at Union Square was just to the north of the station]
In reality, the curve is north of the uptown platform, while in the middle of the downtown platform.
Interesting.
I forgot about the offset platforms at Union Square. Nontheless, it was a rocket ride.
I dreamed last night that I was going to Times square with my friends. We got on a 6 train, except that it was on the west side of manhattan. There were signs at the station that said we had to transfer to the A,C,E line to get to times square. how thoughtful of them to have signs on how to get to times square just for me. anyway I was about to buy a metrocard, when the power went out for a second then i started to talk to the station attendant, then i woke up.
You missed the best part! When I have more time and inspiration but right now I must clip my coupons, the weekend approaches and its time to abuse the supermarket chais!
Beware Grand Union,Waldbaum's and Edwards , my scissor is out and sharp!
But tahts another tale
snip snip snip snip snip
avid
You missed the best part! When I have more time and inspiration I'll tell you all about it and Estaban Via Ocho Espresso your native guide but right now I must clip my coupons, the weekend approaches and its time to abuse the supermarket chains!
Beware Grand Union,Waldbaum's and Edwards , my scissor is out and sharp!
But tahts another tale
snip snip snip snip snip
avid
At ti\his time I must beg off interpreting any new dreams. Heypaul and BMTman are a handfull as it is.
keep on dreamin'
avid.
I'm usually good for one weird subway dream per month.
What is the official use for the yellow piece of wood found in every subway cab, it has to be for more then proping the door open...
To isolate the car(s) from third rail power in the event of an emergency. Other uses include:
1) Proping the cab door open.
2) Self-defense
3) Self-offense
4) Teach noisy teens a leason.
5) Stick it out the window to make people stand behind the yello line.
6) To punch route selector buttons, if you stop short.
7) To punch route selector buttons if you are short yourself.
8) Hold it and swing it around to show signs of power.
9) On breaks, T/O and C/R use it to have fun by dueling.
10) Walking stick
lol
I saw another use of that yellow pieceof wood yesterday.
A TO was getting ready to leave Times Square. I saw him use two of those things as places to put his feet. I guess he doesn't like his legs dangling while he's driving the train.
Thanks for letting me be your straight man for you top ten list
Wouldn't you need two pieces to isolate the car?
That is why there is one in each cab. As far as R44/46 you would have to walk a bit for the second paddle.
R44/46 carry 2 in the operators cab, none in the B cars.
-Hank
In practice, you actually need 3 Shoe paddles to safely isolate a car from the 3rd rail. The third paddle is actually used as a fulcrum to assist in raising the contact shoe off the rail against gravity and the force of the shoe beam fulcrum spring.
You know, that raises a question that I've wondered about:
When, in practice, do you actually need to slipper a car?
What do you do after it is off the rail? You can't move it
with the slippers in place. Do you then break the shoe fuses
or open both knife switches?
Depends on why you slippered it.
It may be just to replace a shoe fuse.
Or it might be to make another minor repair.
However, if you break one shoe fuse, you need to break
all four. By the way, there is only one knofe switch that
I am aware of.
By the way, there is only one knofe switch that
I am aware of.
Umm, yeah, I was thinking either of the main/aux fuses or
the older equipment, which has separate main and aux knife
switches....then again I suppose Lo-Vs don't roll into
Concourse too often :)
It's called a shoe slipper or shoe paddle. They were for many years painted black.
In Boston we use steel hooks with wooden or fibreglass handles to attach the third rail shoe to the beam, removing it from the third rail. The same effect.
05/03/2000
And many moons ago when those shoe paddles were painted black, they were also used to prevent storm doors on BMT Standards from springing open.
Bill Newkirk
I saw plain old unpainted 2x6s used to hold storm doors shut on BMT standards once or twice. But if those storm doors were powered, how could they open without pushing the corresponding console button?
05/04/2000
Steve B,
I don't know if those storm doors sprang open or just slid open by car movements. At any rate, the doors couldn't lock and the shoe paddle was wedged in place to prevent an accident.
Bill Newkirk
But didn't those storm doors have keyholes so they could be locked? I'm almost positive they did. They were kept locked on the standards for the same reason they're locked on the 75-footers. Anyway, as I said, I only saw 2x6s wedged against the door handles once or twice in two years. Otherwise, nothing else was ever used. I never had a storm door open by surprise on the standards in the two years I rode on them.
This last weekend saw the heaviest usage of the Central Branch in a while when all the Ronkonkoma went to Babylon, reversed to Bethpage, then continued to Ronk (and v.v.).
I thought I might be able to take the kids on a ride from Babylon to Ronkonkoma, but the trains didn't go as far as Babylon station. They just cleared Belmont, with the lead engine going a little east of Little East Neck Rd., then reversed.
Anyway, picking up the discussion of the Central Branch, many Montauk trains that used to take it have been switched to Babylon because the Main Line is clogged (and sometimes it's just shorter). When and if the railroad fairies grants the LIRR two of its fond wishes, third track Hicksville-Queens and electric on the Central Branch, we should see quite a renaissance of the line.
Comment re: NYC transit. Central Branch shows the importance of maintaining lightly-used lines--they're still there in the event you need them for emergencies, increased or new service. NYCTA just HAD to sever, downgrade and eliminate Culver. Who knows if the Franklin shuttle r-o-w may be critical in the future? And if the LIRR (or NYCTA) had maintained even a skeleton service on the old White Pot-Ozone Park part of Rockaway, we might be using it as airport access today.
Another reason for the decrease in use of the Central Branch has to be the emergence of reverse signalling on the Babylon Branch. Now, trains coming from Patchogue and Montauk can be routed around slow moving locals.
That combined with the increased congestion on the Main Line means railfanning along the South Shore is just a little bit more interesting than it was 10 or 15 years ago.
Chuck
[Anyway, picking up the discussion of the Central Branch, many Montauk trains that used to take it have been switched to Babylon because the Main Line is clogged (and sometimes it's just shorter).]
As noted before, I take the 6:41 dual-mode from Patchogue about twice a week, and maybe one-fifth of the time it takes the Babylon line rather than the Central Branch for its Babylon-Jamaica express run. I have found that the time difference between the two routings is just about zero. If the train takes the Babylon line, it normally slows down quite a bit between c.Merrick and c.Freeport, presumably following a local, but makes up the difference through generally higher speeds elsewhere.
Also, they never should have severed the connection between the LIRR & the IND in Far Rockaway. It was only about a block long.
But then they couldn't have built that wonderful strip mall.
[But then they couldn't have built that wonderful strip mall (between the IND and LIRR in Far Rockaway)]
I trust that's scarcasm ... the last time I was in the area, a couple of years ago, I noted that the strip mall was at least half vacant.
Are they tennents or owners of the land. They must go for obvious reasons......
Bring back the LOOP!
avid
Now 3/4ths empty. I think there are a few empty lots left. It'd be neat if they had left it for at least an across platform transfer from A to LIRR.
Speaking of Belmont...
My sports calendar says that today marks the 95th anniversary of the opening of Belmont Park. It mentions that the race track was named after August Belmont and that he was a banker, but it doesn't say anything about his ties with the subway or LIRR.
"It mentions that the race track was named after August Belmont and that he was a banker, but it doesn't say anything about his ties with the subway or LIRR."
Yeah, and the usual biographies of Sam Insull, the transit and electric power magnate of the 1920s -- whose improvements to the Chicago-area interurban lines he owned helped keep the North Shore Line alive into the early '60s and the South Shore Line to today -- discuss almost exclusively his electric power activivies and give VERY little mention to his transit holdings.
The odd thing is that it was his transit business that did him in. Owning the Chicago Rapid Transit and all three interurbans into Chicago made him a target for populist ire and demagoguery -- despite his willingness to invest in solid capital improvements, he was portrayed as an out-of-towner coming in and living high off the nickels of the poor beset straphangers. (Sounds like the attitude of a certain New York City mayor to the IRT and BMT, no?) Therefore, his public image was VERY low when the '29 market crash severely affected his businesses, and he was (wrongly) accused of fraud and embezzlement.
http://post.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=1600442784&tid=budgiesandparrakeets&sid=1600442784&mid=1&n=1
......question ......bird lovers out there ??
...not...what i... expected.
if so maybe a town and or city served by the long island railroad would be a better choice than lodging n.y.c....etc..
i suppose they do not run 24 /7 right ??? the LIRR...
Coming east? One possibility of lodging is the Holiday Inn two short blocks from the Rockville Centre LIRR station, adjacent to the tracks. There is a double advantage: Rockville Centre LIRR service is 24/7 and mostly on 30-minute headway (35 minutes or so to Penn Station). Fare is $7 peak, $4.75 off-peak. Another advantage is that Rockville Centre station has an inexpensive bus or van connection to JFK airport called the JFK Flyer, which stops at the public bus platform at each airline. I don't have a timetable here with me, but the headway is about 40 minutes, maybe 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. The JFK Flyer is operated by LI Bus, but I understand the drivers get only paratransit salaries, not the transit bus scale. Fare is $1.50 coins or NY Metrocard (purchasable not on board, but at LIRR and subway stations). There are probably a few other motels convenient to the LIRR, but I cannot think of them now. Enjoy the trip.
Salaamallah
I'm not sure if Long Island is a great idea for lodging. Hotel prices tend to be rather high, and there aren't many hotels of decent quality. Those that do exist are rarely within walking distance of the LIRR.
One which comes to mind is the Holiday Inn in Rockville Centre, but that will run you $125-$150 per night. There are some other smaller, independent motels along Sunrise Highway (which parallels the LIRR's Babylon branch) which are probably less expensive. You have to be careful with these places, though. Many cater to the "3-hour rate" crowd and can be a bit dicey though not unsafe. I'd stay there by myself, but I wouldn't bring my family.
The best hotel deal that I recall are the two hotels located in either Rutherford or East Rutherford NJ, right along Route 3. I believe one is (or was) the Novotel, I don't remember the other one's name. NJ Transit offers fairly frequent (half-hourly for most of the day) service from right near the hotels to the Port Authority. The fare is considerably cheaper than the LIRR, too.
Chuck
Doh!!!
As soon as I hit "post" I thought of a Long Island spot for you. The Best Western in Hempstead is about 3 or 4 blocks from the LIRR station. Rates there are probably under $100 per night -- the website indicates rates as low as $79.
You can also catch a Long Island Bus in Hempstead which will take you to Jamaica where you can catch the F train, all on one Metrocard.
Enjoy your visit,
Chuck
An N-6 bus from Hempstead to Jamaica is a good hour spent looking at scenic Hempstead Turnpike and a gazillion traffic lights. Then your LOCAL "F" train awaits you.
The Hempstead LIRR station is right near there as well. Hempstead also has a museum of African-American history, IIRC.
wayne
You would be better off in New Jersey, the prices are cheaper. But you could always try a couple of the YMCA s in Manhatten. These have a web site here some place. You just would have to find it.
The Sheraton Hotel is located in downtown Flushing-Main Street area. If you stay there, you have access to LGA and for traveling into Manhattan, you can use either the IRT #7 line or the LIRR at Flushing-Main Street.
If you want better lodging in a better area, you might try Great Neck which is on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. In Great Neck there two hotel within walking distance of the train station and it is safe at night there. the two hotels are the Bayberry-Great Neck Hotel(516-482-2900) and the Inn at Great Neck(516-773-2000).
You might also try looking in the Mobil travel guide book for location and pricing of accomdations outside of Manhattan.
........I would like to thank all on this thread of posts to this question I asked bout the LIRR and lodging
etc...... you all have been very helpful and I appreciate this very much
I only wish ALL SUBTALKERS were like this on this subtalk forum !!!!!! thank you ...( salamallah) .....
........I would like to thank all on this thread of posts to this question I asked bout the LIRR and lodging
etc...... you all have been very helpful and I appreciate this very much
I only wish ALL SUBTALKERS were like this on this subtalk forum !!!!!! thank you ...( salaamallah)...
try westfield nj there is a best western there. it is a short walk to the westfield train station on the raitan line.
Would any expert on subway cars care to explain what the improvements (or lack thereof) have been over time as each new series of cars has come into service?
R40 Air conditioning!
The Triplexes introduced route and destination signs on the end bulkheads, as well as backlit side destination signs.
The BMT standards brought in couplers which incorporated mechanical, pneumatic, and electric coupling of cars without having to connect anything else.
If the trains before the Standard had automatic couplers, what made them automatic?
Probably the fact that you could make a coupling by just hitching cars together rather than having a man guide it from the ground as with the infamous link and pins. I believe the good old knuckles used on mainline railroads for a century were called automatic when new.The IRT "J" couplers looked much like the BMT, IND etc ones but only the "iron" hitch was automatic. Oh yes, the air pipes made up too but the angle cocks had to be opened manually, amd all jumper cables for trainline circuits plugged in, as is done on diesels.
The last ten cars of the R/38 were the ones to introduce air. The R/40 Slants first 300 had fans, next 100 had air . My numbers might be off but the R/38,s were first. Thank you very much.
avid.
R-15 6239 (the one now in the Transit Museum, as it happens) was the first NYC subway car with air conditioning. It was retrofitted in 1955. In 1956, R-17s 6800-6809 came with air conditioning. The equipment was replaced with more powerful units, then by fans. R-38s 4140-4149 came in 1967, followed by R-40s 4350-4549 (current numbers) in 1969. Everything since then has been air conditioned.
David
First 200 SLANT had fans (4150-4249/4350-4449); last 100 had air (4450-4549). R40M had air (4250-4349).
Note: The numbers shown are the ORIGINAL car numbers.
Wayne
An interesting point about the 10 R-38s equipped with AC is that the units totally blocked all normal access to the headsigns. Obviously a modification!
Its always a pleasure to draw out the real answers with guesstimates.
I stand corrected and educated, i didn't know about the early attemps .
avd
Well, the R-10s brought in SMEE braking as well as four motors per car. They were also the last cars to have air-operated doors. Still, they could, and occasionally did, intermix with later cars. I'm glad they ran in solid trains for the most part.
There is a photo on ebay showing the passengers in the back of the 1st PCC car trip in 1932. Somebody's father, grandfather or someone you may have know is in that picture.
See Ebay Item #322274869
This looks like one of the prototypes, perhaps #5200, that ran in Brooklyn. The PCC design wasn't finalized until 1935.
It's definately not a PCC, that's for sure. The angle of the rear window supports is wrong, along with several other details.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't we look at that same picture about a year ago, and
didn't we conclude that it was ERPCC-B, formerly BQT 5200,
the pre-PCC test car?
Now that you mention it, I think you're right, Jeff. The window arrangement in the back would certainly fit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right except that I think that it was as recent as a few months ago. The same picture was on eBay then, and I thought it had sold!
I knew it was a pre-prod model, but I was not sure which one it was.
I was more interested in the people in the pix. I would think that someone (on Subtalk) may have know someone in the photo. Some of those people in the photo look like some of my relatives. They used to live a block or two west from Lexington. I remember that there was a day-storage trolley yard across the street from my aunt's house.
Do we have any Brooklyn trolley track maps on this site.
No, there aren't any trolley track maps here...
I do have a map of the Brooklyn trolleybus wire in the Bus section though.
-Dave
Why is the subject named the way it is? Read on:
Today I rode the HHLR, parked at 34th Street and rode to Exchange Place and then on to PATH. The trip (both ways and parking, not counting PATH) costed $5.00.
Do you have to put the receipt inside the car windshield as a parking ticket or do they keep track electronically?
I used the UNMARKED stop request strip going back towards 34th, IT WORKED! The automated announcement acknowledged my request, and it was on the display (which announced every stop one stop early, BTW).
The map engraved into the platform at Exchange Place showed the north of Hoboken extension, consult This map (will open in new window) to know what I will talk about below:As we already know, Jersey City Medical Center is called Jersey Avenue and Liberty Harbor is called Marin Boulevard.
The engraved map DOES NOT show the Route 440 Park and Ride proposal
Nor does it show the southern Bayonne extension
The 17TH Street Station is not shown on the engraved map
Nor is Port Imperial South
Finally, the reason for the subject line: The engraving shows the line terminating at Tonnelle Avenue, NOT going to 69TH or 85TH Street or especially the Vince Lombardi Service Plaza in Ridgefield.
Do you think they will EVER correct those auto-PA problems?
use the stop request strips?
or have the doors manually controlled?
As for LR-spurred development, Van Vorst Street and Dudley Street (between Essex and Marin stations) are both being extended to meet one another, the curbing and drainage is done, the asphalt is still not there. I guess they ran out of streets on which to build townhouses!
Garfield Avenue has an elevator, except for the one under construction at 34th Street, do any other stations have any?
And that's it, hope this provokes hours of meaningless discussion (just kidding).
The automatic stop announcements were humorously out of sync the one time I rode the HBLR. Practically each time the train stopped for signals or traffic lights, the computer perceived this as a station stop and announced that we were arriving at the station! We hadn't even reached Liberty State Park when the train was telling us we were approaching LAST STOP...FINAL STOP...EAST THIRTY-FOURTH STREET :^) The operator just gave up, shut off the voice (but the visual display kept flashing LAST STOP/ FINAL STOP/ E. 34TH STREET), and announced the stops himself.
CTA hasn't had these bizarre problems with its automatic (voice only) announcements. I have only heard the auto-voice go out of sync once, and the train operator quickly set it right. Not that people haven't been complaining that the voice is too loud or too quiet, but at least it calls out the stops in the right order at the right time.
It's manually controlled from a small panel to the right of the operator. LIRR trilevels have a similar system.
-Hank
Hi
Can anyone confirm if there is now a Relay layover track on the SB Side,,west of the Revenue Tracks?? I understand that this is supposed to extend North to the Bridge Area.
and yes,I do know there is a relay track on the NB Side,,north of the Diamond Crossover .
Thanks
Steve
I beleive it will be Track F5 ,,located West of the SB track,can any one verify this location and Track ID
I saw it a couple of days ago. I think there was a switch north of the double crossover north of BC, but as I looked at the track itself, there are some buildings in its way that need to be moved. I say this because there is some track, a building, more track, another building, etc. These aren't big buildings, just some small shacks, but I still call them buildings.
Thank you
Steve
Thank you
Steve
Yeah, I took a ride out on the Far Rock A to look at the work going on over there.
Apparently, NYCT has to remove or demolish a couple of their trackside shanties before the F5 track can be completed. Also, third rail has yet to be added.
I saw two rail-tamping units on that track further south toward Broad Channel station. Also, the trackwork train was sitting on the southbound express tracks between Howard Beach and Acequduct/North Conduit stations. Diesel locos #899, 71, and 78 were involved in the consists of rail-carrying flatcars.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone have an Updated Drawing of the Track Layout for the 63 st Connection..
I assisted Peter Doughtery in the Tracks of NY Boook ,Version 1 to version 2,etc,,however I understand there have been additional changes in the track layout
BTW,,has anyone spoke to Peter,,I have not been able to contact him,,as of recent
Thank you
Steve Lowenthal
Tonight oh TLC, they had a special on the subway, the piece was about a smoke condition at Grand Central, they showed the command center, what goes on there, i saw the inside of the Grand Central tower, nice shots of redbirds and R-62's. They also talked about the subway musicians, now they doing a piece on the homeless living in the amtrak tunnel on the westside any comments?
I'm really sorry I missed this... and ticked off. I've set up my DirecTV search option to find programs containing 'subway' and it missed this one completely.
Bill J.
Your search would have missed this one. It was a "48 Hours" episode on NY "underground". The word "subway" was not in the title.
From the TLC Schedule:
48 Hours - The N.Y. Underground
Each day, three and a half million people ride New York City's subway. Beneath the city lies another world, where 5,000 homeless people live, and the public library stores George Washington's beer recipe.
Air Time(s) Eastern/Pacific Time:
TLC May 3 2000 2:00 AM
TLC May 3 2000 7:00 PM
PS. I missed it too. :>(
(It is not listed for a repeat in May, but I predict that it will be shown again, on either TLC or Discovery.)
Thanks for the info wsteil. I'll keep an eye out for it. Actually the DirecTV search (they call them 'scouts') does search on program descriptions too, but they use such condensed descriptions that it's pretty useless.
Bill J.
It's wensday and that means another chat. Come if you want to and talk for a while.
Starts at 8
just go to:
metrocard.cjb.net
and click on:
Metrocard Chat
or just go to:
www.chat.cjb.net/metrocard
Has anyone ever noticed that at the ends of many (if not all) IRT R62s there are circular dents in the shiny metal walls? It looks like people have swung hammers at it. Are these just the mischevous punks that like to destroy subway cars?
Those dents could be caused by assholes throwing rocks at the trains on outdoor portions of the routes. The Amtrak trains out here in California have plenty of those dings even with fluted siding.
I think most bullets would have the power to go through the walls of a subway train. I belive it is more hammers doing the damage
05/04/2000
[Has anyone ever noticed that at the ends of many (if not all) IRT R62s there are circular dents in the shiny metal walls? It looks like people have swung hammers at it. Are these just the mischevous punks that like to destroy subway cars? ]
I can't prove this but my suspicions tell me they were caused by bullets. It's easier to conceal a gun than a ball peen hammer. I've seen these dings in other cars as well. In fact years ago, I saw an R-27 or 30 with several holes that had to be caused by bullets on that irregular stainless steel surface by the end storm door.
Bill Newkirk
How about a BB gun pellet?????
BM34x
05/05/2000
[How about a BB gun pellet?????
BM34x]
I don't think a BB pellet would put a dent that large in it. Most likely and not as deep.
I still don't thin a ball peen hammer did those dents. You notice how close they are? A gun most likely did, maybe from some armed low lifes who prowl the system in the wee hours.
Bill Newkirk
I've seen this phenomenon on the R68's which run on the "D". #2511 was particulary full of these saucer-shaped dents (which may have been fixed by now). They are on the inside of the car, on either interior end wall. The R62's on the #4 also have many. I don't think a gun did this, more likely a punch or a small hammer.
wayne
Is anyone good at identifying diesel switchers? I saw NYCHRR loco #11 last monday and I didn't know what it was! It looks like an Alco-made unit, but I could be way off. I've got photos at http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/nychrr.html
I need your help to put in captions too!
Daniel
THAT NYCHRR SWITCHER IS AN ALCO S-4
One can find out more about the NYCH's rolling stock at:
http://www.nyrr.com/
The line will also be featured in the July issue of Trains magazine.
Dave
05/04/2000
I believe NYCH #11 was formerly a Massena Terminal engine from upstate New York, I'm not sure of the old number.
Bill Newkirk
AEM-&
Test Test Test
This concludes the test
Daniel
If you were trying to show pictures as part of a message, then you passed.
05/03/2000
I just picked up the new Continental Airlines Metrocard at 57th St and 7th Ave (N)(R).
The message is: TEST THE LIMITS OF YOUR GEOGRAPHY SKILLS
If you find a Continental Airlines with a different message, it's probably an older one.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill,
I believe there are a total of ten in the series that go all the way back to April of 1998 ... all have the same basic graphics with different comments (the first one the globe is a bit bigger).
BTW, I don't know about the rest of you NYC collectors, but I finding that the recent issues aren't as readly available ... is it smaller distribution of more folks getting into the hobby ?
Mr t__:^)
There seems to be a miscommunication regarding card delivery. One of the stations where I work was supposed to get the Board of Ed card and they did not. The station called called a friend at another station that was also supposed to get the cards and the second station did not get them either.
Info on new cards which I post is based on the information as stated in official AFC Bulletins.
The Board of Ed card is available at Lawrence ST/ Metrotech BMT as you stated. It is a beauty, too.
JCaronetti
I just got my Bd Of Ed Card at 59-Lex.........
3TM
I've noticed that many LIRR work trains have chain-link and buffer combination couplers instead of the standard American knuckle. Is this because of their European pedigree? But even if so, why didn't the european manufacturers retrofit the cars to American standards. The buffers look so ugly, and the system is less efficient than the knuckle.
Daniel
Have the opened the Monorail link from Newark Airport to the NJT railroad station yet?
[Have the opened the Monorail link from Newark Airport to the NJT railroad station yet?]
Not yet. It's still at least a year to 18 months off, IIRC.
I took a look at it a few days ago. The "tracks" (what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?) were in place from the operating portion to a point just short of the gas pipeline ROW. From that point on, there are 15 or 16 sets of piers or footings onto which no track segments have been placed. Never having been involved in construction in any capacity, I can't see why it would take more than two months to finish the project.
> what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?
"Guideway"
One problem is that the whole monorail is due to be shut down for retrofitting of some faulty steel welds. I wonder if the new portion of the guideway was built with the same technology that was found to be faulty...
-Dave
The manufacture or builder if you will will cover the costs of repair so if it is the same outfit it is big $$$
Is there anyone who agrees with me that the idea of building "split-level" terminals such as those at Newark, where all drop-off is on one level and you have to take escalators either up to departure or down to arrival, shows just how much bad judgment the Port Authority is capable of?
This design is hardly unique to the Port Authority... it seems typical of airports I've ever been to. You almost *always* go down to the arrivals level to claim your bags. At Newark, cars approaching the terminal have three levels to choose from, not one:
1. Departures Level (topmost) People being "dropped off" would be on the departures level where the baggage is collected and the check-in desks are located, then they go down a half level to the gates. Remember the terminals were built prior to the monorail where you only had two choices to get there: park at hourly and come up from the lower level, which I suspect is not the way most departing passengers arrive, or use a taxi/bus from long-term and get dropped off right at the departures level.
2. Baggage Claim Level (middle). Arriving passengers come from the gate concourse and go down a half level to the baggage pickup. (Why would they need to go up to departure?) From the baggage claim level you have direct access to ground transportation (taxi/bus).
3. Parking Lot Level (bottom). If you're parking here and departing, you have to go up two levels for departure check in but how many people park in the hourly lots to fly somewhere? I suspect most people who park there are meeting people and would either go up 1 level to Baggage Claim or 1 and a half levels to the gates. If you're driving to the airport to fly out, you'd probably park at long-term and take the monorail to your terminal.
Some airports take the split level to an extreme. For instance Heathrow Terminal 4 has two levels in the gate area. Arriving passengers enter the building on the lower level which has no services- just immigration and customs service. Departing passengers use the upper level of the gate concourse areas and generally have to use stairs or a lift to get down to the lower level where the jetway is to board the plane.
Charles De Gaulle in Paris has a two level structure too, but the jetways can actually raise and lower to connect to the upper or lower levels (like an elevator).
It's more important at an international terminal to keep arriving and departing passengers separate. I think American domestic airports are designed mostly to provide extra road space (on two levels)- once you're checked in, departing passengers co-mingle with arriving passengers on the gate concourses. If it were truly designed to keep the passenger flows apart, the two level system would have to be extended all the way to the gates like at Heathrow or CDG. But really, have you ever seen a major airport that did not have different levels for different services? Space is at a premium..
Hmmm...maybe I am too harsh on Newark. I have only used it a few times. I just have a pretty vivid recollection that I was forced to lug my baggage, and at the time a baby stroller (with baby)up and down escalators when I arrived at the terminal. I have never had that experience at any other American airport. However, I may have arrived by monorail from the rental car area. According to your post, this is a weakness in the way the monorail was retrofitted into the terminal design. Thus, perhaps I was seeing the terminal from its weakest perspective in this regard. Nonetheless, I am obviously not the only passenger who arrives via monorail and encounters this problem with the airport's design.
True, the monorail was retrofitted in what might be seen as a clumsy manner but I still don't feel too sorry for you. You could have used the elevators for your baggage! :-)
-Dave
Okay, okay, I will stop picking om Newark. Thanks for your thoughtful and informative comparisons of Newark's design to other airports.
Good. If you used LaGuardia a few times, you'ld be more appreciative of Newark.
The use of the "split level" design in has become the accepted standard for large, busy airports; ticketing and departures are usually on the upper level, and baggage claim and arrivals are on the lower level. Often there may be an intermediate level for an airport people-mover system and for various back-of-house service areas such as baggage handling.
All four terminals at O'Hare Airport are designed this way, and such a configuration provides a very efficient passenger flow. Given how huge O'Hare is, it is generally a very easy airport to navigate and one shudders to think what a nightmare it would be if everything shared one level. Midway Airport is a fraction of the size of O'Hare, but I find it much more difficult to use because of its antiquated single-level design. (Luckily, Midway is in the process of being completely rebuilt from the ground up. It will literally be a brand-new airport in a few years, with a standard "split-level" design for the terminal.)
(On a related topic, the City of Chicago just announced plans to build two more terminals at O'Hare, and local business leaders are pushing for additional runways and a western access road. Watch the suburban NIMBY's fight tooth-and-nail to stop this project from proceeding.)
A few large airports have been foolish enough to have arriving and departing passengers on the same level, and the results have almost always been chaotic. Hartsfield in Atlanta comes to mind, where ticketing and baggage claim occupy the same level and large numbers of passengers going in opposite directions must cross paths in the terminal. Dallas - Ft. Worth Airport also occupies a special place of honor in the Hall of Shame for bad airport design.
In the case of international terminals, the federal government requires that arriving and departing passengers be kept absolutely seperate. There are also some extrememly strict security design guidelines put forth by the FAA and U.S. Customs for the arrivals area prior to entering the customs checkpoint. (Long, straight corridors with no blind corners, no shops or restaurants, etc. Since these areas are technically international territorry, security is of paramount concern.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I did not make my original objections to Newark's design altogether clear. Of course, most airports are "split level" in the sense that they have an arrival and departure level. What is odd about Newark is the fact that you can arrive at an intermediate level that requires you to go up 1/2 level or down 1/2 level, as the case may be, while dragging your baggage. O'Hare does not have this feature, nor do any other American airports that I am aware of.
By the way, the new Midway Terminal will be a modern two level terminal. DOA intends to encourage its development as a shopping location, which seems to be the favored modern mode for new airport development.
Terminal 5 at O'Hare, the new international terminal, is set up in this fashion. The airport people mover system comes in at an intermediate level between departures and arrivals. There are also entrances from a parking lot on this level as well; this intermediate level is actually the ground floor, with arrivals located below-grade. This is due in large part to security measures, and also the fact that the people mover system was built before the terminal.
People have to carry their luggage on the escalator or elevator no matter what, but that's pretty much a fact of life in any large airport. People movers are much like subways, and like it or not, chances are you're not going to get to the platform level without using stairs, escalators or an elevator.
The location of the people mover station at an intermediate level is actually ideal, since that puts it within a short distance of both departures and arrivals. At the three domestic terminals at O'Hare, which were all built before the people mover system, the people mover is located on the departures level opposite the roadway. People must still use and escalator to go up to a pedestrian bridge that crosses the roadway, and then another escalator down to the platform. Arriving passengers must use an additional escalator to get from baggage claim to the departures level in order to use the people mover. I'd much rather use one escalator than three.
Terminal 5 at O'Hare, designed by my former employer Perkins & Will.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Oh, did you have something to do with T5? It is an unusually beautiful terminal building. We can hope that the new major expansions at O'Hare will be a similar quality.
I wish I could claim some credit for it ("See that door knob? I put that there"), but I joined the firm a couple years after the terminal was completed.
I know Helmut Jahn's design for the United Airlines terminal (Terminal 1) gets a lot of press ink for its design, but I think Terminal 5 is every bit as good, IMO. Terminals 2 and 3 are starting to look a bit dated, but they're still not bad after 30 years. Maybe they'll get a decent facelift with along with the proposed expansions.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Wow, for a second there I was thinking, what's the deal with the four track railroad in front of the building. :-)
-Dave
[By the way, the new Midway Terminal will be a modern two level terminal. DOA intends to encourage its development as a shopping location]
That's a peculiar abbreviation for the Department of Airports :-)
Yes, come to think of it. It stands for Department of Aviation, but the acronym is unfortunate. Nonetheless, that is how it is referred to in Chicago City government.
Why would arriving passengers need to go to departure?
Maybe if they are changing planes but have no checked baggage to pick up? Maybe they figure that cabs will be easier to catch on the departure level, having just dropped off departing travelers.
Changing planes. It's a rare treat when I get a non-stop flight westbound when going to see my grandchildren, and depending on the airport I may have to change levels to change planes. Pittsburgh is the worst, level-wise, that I've been through; fortunately, it's been quite a few years since I've had to change there (back before the grandchildren were born). I arrived on the bottom level (of four), and departed from the top level. The two levels in between were a shopping mall at that time, the gates were clustered, and if you needed to get from one cluster to another you had to go down to level 1, up through the mall to level 4, and then back down to the other cluster. Maybe they've improved it by now; I think it was 1982 when I was last through there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pittsburgh opened an entirely new airport (at least the terminal portion) a few years ago - 1992 I think. By all reports, it is an exceptionally nice airport now.
That's good. Back in those days I was travelling from Raleigh to Lansing, Michigan every couple of months and Allegheny was the only choice, which meant a change in Pittsburgh on the return trip (going north the change was in Cincinnati). I grew to hate that airport! Now, I change in Salt Lake City on Delta going JFK to my daughter's home in Las Vegas, and fly nonstop coming east; this last trip I lucked into a nonstop going west too, and it was cheaper to boot! The Salt Lake airport has a nice peoplemover shuttle, as does Las Vegas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The main terminal at Denver International Airport has SIX - count 'em, six - levels, although once inside, only the top three are used. The parking garages on either side of the main terminal have six levels apiece which coincide with the main terminal's levels. Departures pull up to the top level, where the ticketing areas are. Baggage pickup is on the fifth level along with the security gates to the subway trains and, at the far northern end, the skybridge to Concourse A. The trains are on what would be the fourth level, then they dip down beneath the taxiway to Concourse A and stay at that grade.
Tampa Int. has 7- 2 for the main termanal the rest for parking. They also have a monorail to get to/from the main termanal to the gates, If the monorail breaks down, the only other way to get to the gate is to walk on the tarmack outside
[I took a look at it a few days ago. The "tracks" (what is the proper terminology in the case of a monorail?) were in place from the operating portion to a point just short of the gas pipeline ROW. From that point on, there are 15 or 16 sets of piers or footings onto which no track segments have been placed. Never having been involved in construction in any capacity, I can't see why it would take more than two months to finish the project.]
Government. Somehow government construction sites are idle most of the time. I don't know quite how they do it . . .
Because they move equipment and people to other places, usually private, where they can get more money. When they're done, they go back and work at the government project for a while.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Normally I don't post off-topic here,but I wanted to make a brief tribute to John O'Conner, who passed away tonight @ 8:05 PM. While subtalkers and all New Yorkers come from many different faiths, I hope is remembered for being a leader, and his years of dedicated service. -Nick
I am of a different faith than his, but I agree that he was a great person of God and a very charismatic, likeable person.He will be missed by all New Yorkers
DAVE: Sorry this is off topic.
I'm sure Irish Catholics never worked on the subway, --Oh ya they did so they might be interested. Sorry to hear of his passing. May he ride the train of red birds to the great here after.
I just heard about it this morning. I'm Catholic myself, and have heard many good things about him. God bless him.
God Bless you Cardinal O'Conner
Peace Out
David Justiniano
05/04/2000
I was amazed how much abuse he took from others who didn't agree with him and his teachings. A lesser man would have cracked and exploded. A lesson in it for us all. Rest in peace Cardinal O'Connor, you definitely have a space reserved in heaven for you.
Bill Newkirk
The mystery is solved, I'm pleased to report. Today I went to a specialty-foods store and did a little label checking. Then I compared what I saw to some recent Subtalk posts. It is finally settled, no further discussion:
Salaamallah IS Dr.Bronner.
is dr. bronner that your real name ?? ...you didnt settle anything except to put up another typical idiot post !!
it also seems that you label yourself very nicely ...no mystery except the nut you see every time you look at yourself
in the mirror !!! eh dr. bronner ??!!
Is there some reason you feel you need to be malicious instead of just ignoring those you don't see eye to eye with? Please keep this crap off this board.
[Is there some reason you feel you need to be malicious instead of just ignoring those you don't see eye to eye with? Please keep this crap off this board.]
I have *tried* to ignore Salaamallah. He went on my killfile list as soon as that capability was added. It appears that some other people have done the same. But he just won't go away! Even with the killfiles, I can tell from responses that he's posting like crazy. Ignorning schmucks is usually the best move because they end up going away. But what happens when they *don't* go away?
Buy stronger sunshades!!! seriously, I am here to have fun, elucidate fine points and occasionally make a political (but on point) rant. As to those who are or not part of various killfiles, I long before learned to skip co9mments by some posters as I sure others have behaved the same vis-avis yours truly. In any event go out and ride a train!!! And if one is not enough ride several!!! Believe me living in the SF Bay Area, I am envious of the variety available to you.
At least BART trains get up to 70 mph. I was on one in 1981 which reached 85.
Is anyone able to provide the history of subway car types on the
Franklin Shuttle since the early- or mid-sixties? When did the line switch from four to two car trains? Thanks,
Dave
There were R11 cars on the Franklin Shuttle back then; they went for rebuild in 1964-5 and came back as R34.
I'm not sure if the MS saw their last runs there in 1961...
Other types on the Franklin Shuttle were AB's (while the R11 was being rebuilt). R32 showed up alongside the R11/R34. Once the R11/R34 passed, it was R32, then R27, then R32 again, then R68, in that order.
Prior to the R11, there was a mix of ABs, MS, even D-Types. And the Zephyr ran there as well.
Wayne
There was a time in the Summer of 1996 when there were R68A cars on the Franklin Shuttle. I remember that one of those cars operating on that 2-car R68A set was #5176.
When exactly did the switch from R68A to R68 cars occur?
Nick
The R68 has always been the only R68 to regularly serve the FS. The R68A's you saw were an annomoly.
You said the AB's ran on it while the R11's were being rebuilt which would be around '64 & '65. However I defnitely remember Standards on it in the late 60's.
Since the BMT standards were around until 1969, it's possible you may have seen them on the Franklin Ave. shuttle during that time frame. They also ran on the Culver Shuttle during the late 60s; however, by 1965, they were gone from the rest of the Southern Division.
As of April 1969, R11 was on the Franklin SS; the Culver had the last of the BMT Standards, along with the "M" train. My trip journal from April 11, 1969 shows only R11s on the Franklin.
There could have been other cars there; I just didn't see them.
August 4, 1969: The LAST RIDE for the BMT Standards.
Wayne
There were still some BMT standards on the Canarsie in the spring of 1969. One Saturday, after school had let out, I just missed a train of R-7/9s out of Lorimer St.; by the time I went through that "iron maiden" gate at the western end of the station, the train started to pull out. The next train was a train of standards. I would have waited for another R-7/9 train, but I had a bus to catch from Port Authority.
During the 40s and 50s the Main Stay was a 3 Car Standard, Sometimes they ran the R11, but that was very rare, even though it was always on the local track inbound just south of Prospect Park.
During the 40s and 50s the Main Stay was a 3 Car Standard, Sometimes they ran the R11, but that was very rare, even though it was
always on the local track inbound just south of Prospect Park.
My memory may be bad (I was just a kid then), but I always thought that the stainless steel train parked south of Prospect Park in the early 50s was the 1934 experimental multi-section built by Budd - aka "the Zephyr".
-- Ed Sachs
Trust me - your memory is outstanding! The Zephyr did indeed run on the Franklin Ave. shuttle, so that's probably what you saw.
Didnt they also at one point run a 2 car (one pair) of R-32s with a single R11 for a 3-car train on the Franklin SS?
My understanding was that the TA wanted to run solid 3 car trains of R-11's (using up 9 of the 10 that were built) but the TWU balked about exposing the conductors on the steps to the tough neighborhood in the 70s.
The R-32s gave the conductors inside door controls.
Very true. A neighbor of mine worked it as a Motorman in the early '70's. Typical consist was 2 R-32's and an R-11. A 3 car R-11 set was usually laid up south of Prospect Park as a "gap" (reserve) train and rarely used. IIRC,the reason was complaints from the Conductors that they were easy targets for morons inclined to throw things or spit at them while they were perched on the steps. Evidently such complaints had merit; at about the same time,Conductors working R-7/9's on the Canarsie Line were issued goggles and hard hats for their protection.
Maybe they should have been issued football helmets. This must have taken place in the early 70s, as I don't ever recall conductors wearing anything except uniform hats on the Canarsie line's R-7/9s when I rode on that line. Except for a one-station hop in Manhattan in October of 1984, I haven't been on the LL/L since June 6, 1970.
'70 or '71, if memory serves. I think it was the TA's response to a rise in injury claims. Once the number of claims declined, enforcement probably declined as well. In any event, it didn't last very long.
Make that October 27, 1999! :o>
wayne
I stand corrected on that one. Make that the 14th St. tunnel then.
Could you provide approximate dates for the two periods when the R32s inhabited the Shuttle? Did they run in four or two car sets?
Thanks again,
Dave
R-32's were at first MU'd with R-11's. Then later on the R-11's were retired and the 32's lasted until the R-68A's showed up.
I'm not sure that there were any other R-types used between the time of the 32's and 68's.
Doug aka BMTman
When did the R68s arrive on the shuttle? Did the R32s ever run in two-car sets? By the way, where can I see active R32s?
Thanks,
Dave
Don't know when the 68's started on the Shuttle, but I do recall the 32's running in 4 car sets on the line during the early-70's. I had moved from Crown Heights to Flatbush by that time, and do not know what was run on the Franklin from the mid-70's thru the 1980's.
Doug aka BMTman
The R68's showed up in 1988. Before that, un-rehabbed R27/30 cars ruled this line straight from the mid-late 70's. The R32's showed up in 1992 (?) after an incident where one collided with the bumper block at Franklin Ave, leading to the R68 being banned from the entire line until the rehabbed line re-opened last year. During this time 4 car sets of R32's operated, but only 2 of the 4 cars were actually used in each train.
05/04/2000
And "Redbird" R-30's also did some time here. usually with a grey (S) on front and once with a yellow (S). I witnessed this.
Bill Newkirk
INCORRECT.
The R-68 was running on the line until it's closure in July of 1998. This includes the time before and after Independence Day 1997 (when they switched to electronic tickets).
I can't recall the R68 running on the Franklin Shuttle at this time, because I only witnessed the R32's. I do know that the R68 was banned from the FS for quite some time after the incident I described took place. Perhaps Larry Redbird R33 has exact dates of that incident.
The R-32 cars hold down service on the "E" and part of the "N". There's a train of R-32 GE cars that occasionally pops up on the A or C as well.
The R-32s can also be seen and ridden on the C, which also has R-38s assigned as well. More recently, R-32s have been spotted on the A, sometimes by themselves, sometimes intermixed with R-38s in the same train. The GE rebuilds Dave is referring to are usually found in a train of R-38s; I don't believe they run as a solid train.
Since the R-32s and R-38s look similar, here's a quick way to tell them apart: the R-32s have fluted sides from top to bottom, while the R-38s are fluted on the lower half of each side. If you want to get really specific, the front pixel sign on the R-32s can be very difficult to read because of its relatively small size. The pixel signs on the R-38s are larger and easier to decipher.
Another way to spot R-38's and 32's: the name of the R-type will be marked on the front of the couplers (watch an approaching 32 or 38 and chances are you'll see the marking).
Doug aka BMTman
Yet another way is to look at the front bulkhead above the storm door. On R-32s, it's smooth all the way across with no hint that anything else was ever there. The ten GE rebuilds have outlines where the marker lights used to be. On the R-38s, the entire area where the marker lights and end signs used to be is still delineated.
And if it looks like an R32 outside and an R38 inside, it's a R32GE.
The font on the plaques is a little different too.
When are they pulling these Rollin' Roasters off the road? It's gettin' kinda warm out there.
Wayne
Rollin' roaster? Sounds like a certain F train to me. Know what I mean, know what I mean, nudge, nudge?
As built also the R-38s had a sliding cab window as opposed to the drop sash on the R32s.
ACTIVE R32's??? Well, 590 of the 600 cars ordered are still up and running about on the "A", "C", "E", "N" and "R" lines. I'd say they're a pretty active bunch of 35-year-olds.
The "E" line is just about 100% R32. The "C" is about 66.67% (2/3ds) R32.
Wayne
Gotham Turnstiles has a photo of one R-11 coupled to a pair of R-32s on the Franklin Ave. shuttle. There are also photos of 3-car trains of R-11s on the shuttle carrying #7/Franklin Ave. signs.
Have you ever seen any pics of the MS on the Franklin? I sure haven't...
Have you ever seen any pics of the MS on the Franklin? I sure haven't...
I haven't either. But during a period about 1959-1960, just before the first R27s were delivered, the BMT had such a critical car shortage that the TA dug out every piece of car equipment it could find and it seemed that when they shook the car pool, everything loose ended up on the Shuttle. If the MSs ever ran on the shuttle, that would have been the era.
That was when a group of Lo-Vs were fitted with skirts and sent to various BMT shuttle lines to help out.
According to my source, who may or may not be a contributor to this site:
"The Multi-Section cars ran on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle for one week in February, 1958."
"The Q-Types ran there for 5 hours on October 10, 1957."
"The ex-Staten Island cars ran there from May to August, 1959."
Wayne
It sounds as if the Qs were used there just before they went to the Myrtle Ave. el. But just for 5 hours? That's a bit odd. They would have been perfect if for no other reason than because they were lighter than steel subway equipment.
I'm sorry I can't answer your question as to '60s forward, since I'm not familiar with the mix of R-types that were used after all the original BMT equipment.
However, this is overall an interesting question, since I would argue that the Franklin Shuttle has seen more different types of equipment in regualr service in its history than any other single line or line segment. I say "regular service" because there's always the possibility that a converted Lo-V made a single run on the Brighton Express one day because of a diversion or something that noone remembers--and of course i don't count fantrips.
Note: "Not used" simply means equipment I have no personal recollection of seeing, either personally or in photos, but I'm sure others can fill in the blanks. I moved out of Brooklyn in 1972 so probably missed a good number.
Steam equipment
Its own equipment as BF&CI and Brooklyn and Brighton Beach.
LIRR equipment running from Atlantic Ave. terminal in joint operations years.
Elevated equipment
Every type of elevated motor and trailer car except Brooklyn Bridge, C's and Qs.
BRT/BMT/IND Subway equipment
Standards, Triplexes, the Zephyr, imported SIRT cars, R-11 (R-34), R27/30s, R68A. I can't recall first-hand memory of Bluebird, Hornet, Multi, R-1/9, R-10, R-16, R-32, R-38, either R-40, R-42, R-44 or R-46, but I'm sure others can fill in the blanks (with approx. dates, maybe?).
IRT equipment
Lo-Vs, modified.
Trolleys
The Brighton saw trolleys, entering at Prospect Park, Avenue C (Cortelyou Road) and Neptune Ave. Not sure Ave C was regular oepration, but there were switches.
But I don't know that regular passenger trolleys operated on the Franklin Shuttle portion.
Buses
I'm referring to the bus replacement shuttle during the recent rebuilding. I thought it might be fair game to list, since the buses were in direct substitution and some other lines had similar substitution--i.e., Sea Beach in 1913.
Comments additions corrections?
R32 was surely there - (the original) #3669 was involved in Malbone II on December 1, 1974.
Wayne
Good historical point, Wayne.
Doug aka BMTman
I started riding the Franklin Ave. Shuttle in the late 60's/early 70's and only recall the R-11 sets, and later the R-11/32 combinations.
I think Paul Matus should be able to assist in this area.
Doug aka BMTman
05/04/2000
Did the R1-9's and R-10's run on Franklin except for fan trips?
Also I seen images of one R-11 mixed with a pair of R-32's and yes a pair of R-38's !
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I seriously doubt R-9 or R-10 types ran on the Franklin -- at least not in regular service.
I'd think that the TA would have been scared to run heavy all-steel cars on the rapidly-disintegrating Franklin el structure. If those R types did run on the FS, I'd assume it was back in the days when the line was in better physical shape.
As far as I know the R-38's never ran as sets on the Franklin. They might have been teamed with 32's. I know the R-11/34's were ONLY paired with themselves or R-32's.
Doug aka BMTman
I thought the R-1/9 R-10 cars were lighter than the R-11s, so weight shouldn't have played a part. More likely, it was just that those cars rarely showed their faces on the Brighton line until after Chrystie St., with the R-1/9s keeping to themselves on the Culver line, while the R-10s plowed their normal route on the A. By the time the lines were jumbled in 1967, the R-11 had pretty much been consigned to shuttle duty.
The average R-1/9 weighed in at 84,000 pounds, a tad less then an R-16. The R-10s probably also tipped the scales at the 80,000 pound range. The R-1/9s did appear on the Brighton with regularity on the D line as well as the QJ. I rode on a D train of R-10s once in 1979 or 1980, so that marked one of the very few appearances of those cars on the Brighton. I must admit that it seemed strange indeed to see the R-10s signed up as a D; however, they thundered along CPW just as they did on the A.
It is doubtful if any of those cars were used on the Franklin Ave. shuttle for revenue operation.
The "D" was R-4 with a very occasional R-1.
The "QJ" was Eastern Division stock, R-7A and R-9.
Wayne
Yes, and the coolest part about the R-4s on the D was - no headlights! In fact, the last prewar D train I ever took didn't have them. I even stayed on it for an express run up CPW. The I-beams were nothing more than silhouettes, with only the tunnel lights providing illumination. And, of course, with the bull and pinion gears wailing away at about F# above middle C, it was music to my ears indeed.
The R-11/34 being stainless steel, would certainly weigh less than all-steel, heavy-constucted cars like R-1/9 & R-10's. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I'd surmise that the stainless steel equipment was easier on the Franklin el structure than the heavier all-steel cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Is it possible someone could post a map and or directions from some of the more recent fieldtrips, including the upcoming Sunday one? I missed the LIRR one and will most likely miss Sundays. I'd like to try doing it myself, or find a friend of some sort. But I'd hate to go without some form of directions, or guide. Especially on Staten Island. I have no sense of direction on Staten Island.
Or maybe we could try some of these fieldtrips again, when I can show up? As we did for the Polo Grounds?
Been researching the old roads of Manhattan that predated the street grid commissioned in 1811, but I've found out about some REALLY old streets in London.
"Ermine Street" is one of Britain's traditional "Royal Roads" dating from Roman times and probably earlier. The best known one is Watling Street, which runs from London (and is now the A5) to Shrewsbury. The others are Icknield Street and the Fosse Way. Ermine Street runs north from London towards Lincoln, and was a major Roman road. The most obvious straight stretch is now used by the A10 and A14, between Cheshunt (London) and Huntingdon. However, there is a Roman road called "Ermin Street" which touches the outskirts of Swindon and goes to the Roman town of Cirencester.
Of course when you take into account that Manhattan's Broadway and Brooklyn's Kings Highway are, in part, old Native American trails, those roads may be as old as London's Roman roads. Older, maybe.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I am just curious if the R-110B is still operating on the C.
Has anyone seen it running THIS week?
Nick
For the past week or so, I've seen the R-110B just collecting dust at the 207th Street Yard!
Check the times
168th at 9:56 or 10:03
Euclid at 11:23 or 11:33!
If you see it, Great Luck!
R142 Boi 2K
last night at about 11:30 I was waiting for the Queens bound E or F at Lex when the garbage train came flying through toward queens, then it must have turned around because as I was getting on my F it was back, stopped on the downtown side to pick up garbage. Also there seems to be a series rat problem at Lex you can here them squeeling and we saw at least 15 or 20 rats on the tracks...
Saw the garbage train at 34th St./Bwy loaded and headed southbound on the express tracks aboout 10:30 last night. Must've been busy.
I also saw rats on the end of the Queens-bound platform at Roosevelt avenue at the Queens IND station there, mostly because of lots of garbage bags piled up there. That was the first time I saw them at platform level, usually they are on the tracks.
Rats are a major problem. The end of the Queens bound Queens Plaza station as well have those piles of heavily rat-infested garbage. Makes you wonder whether the rat poison actually reduced or increased the rat population...
Those rats have probably built up a resistance to rat poison by now.
Queens Plaza has lots of big ones on the platform at night crawlig all over the garbage bags
One night while waiting at Metropolitian Av Grand street station for a Brooklyn bound G there was trash under the stairs while some construction was going on. There must have been 50 rats at LEAST. They were crawling into the garbage bags (this is right on the plateform) and then running under the construction area. Their were so many rats that the bags were moving and you could see bumps in the bags moving around. Talk about nasty!
Our three boro "Field Trip" starts at Main Street on the Flushing line at 4 PM. Meet at the East end, i.e. the new section of the station to see the art work, escalators, elevator & very high ceiling. If time
permits the plan is to make three stops along the #7 line: At Woodside for a quick look at the renovated LIRR station; At 46th to see the stained glass in this renovated station; and Queensboro Plaza (if we're short of time we'll talk you through this mass of trackways left over from the trolley days). At Times Square at about 5 PM we'll wait for another Red Bird Express, although a R62 with a Railfan window would be OK too. On to Atlantic Ave non-stop (i.e. we're not getting off anywhere). Now the Red Bird part of the trip is done as we transfer to the N line at Pacific (we should make it here before 6 PM). We'll wait for a R-32 or a Slant 40.
Down the Sea Beach line to Coney Island we go for our tour of Stillwell Ave. There are a number of interesting parts of this station complex to see, but it realy won't take us too long to do it.
Now it's time for Frogs legs at Nathans, yes they'er still on the menu. As we return to the station the Salt Water Taffy shop may still be open. We'll complete the evening by taking the D to Brighten
Beach and wait for a Slant 40, then it's up the Brighton line as we drop off SubTalkers along the way. BTW, you can catch the Franklin Shuttle at Prospect Park on this line if you're a mind to.
Date: Wednesday May 17th, rain date is Wednesday May 24th
Fare: One F-U-N Pass
Hosts: Thurston Clark & Peggy Darlington
I'm going to post this to the Events list, and I'm going to try to make it however may I suggest one slight thing: If you DO get to Pacific Street before 6, stay there and wait until 6 to depart, so that those of 9 to 5'ers can make it to Pacific Street from Manhattan to meet up with you at that point. Does that sound okay to you Thurston and Peggy?
[If you DO get to Pacific Street before 6, stay there and wait until 6 to depart, so that those of 9 to 5'ers can make it to Pacific Street from Manhattan to meet up with you at that point.]
Great minds think alike ... that was the plan sorry I didn't make it clearer. The same goes for Times Square, we won't leave until 5 PM, but might not make it their until 5:15, i.e. the #7 is about 45 min, incl. two or three short stops & waiting for the next train may delay us a little ... that's way Queensboro Plaza maybe a TALK THRU, if we're running late we won't get off. The other two stops you realy have to get off to see what we're going to be talking about.
Mr t__:^)
According to the head of the Chicago Planning Department, Chicago requires two off-street parking spaces per housing unit in new buildings in the center of town. Not permits, requires. A huge new residential tower going up sits on top of a 19 story parking garage. It seems folks are convinced that people will not live in the Windy City without a suburban, auto-oriented lifestyle.
Compare that with NYC. We do not even allow much residential parking in Manhattan south of 110th Street. We require little if anything in the rest of Manhattan and the west Bronx. In my neighborhood, five miles out, no parking is permitted on lots less than 40 feet wide -- the requirement is one per housing unit. Even on the south shore of Staten Island, only one parking space per housing unit is required, although builders are allowed to provide more.
The thing is, if lots of new high-rise residential buildings were built in central Chicago, and all those residents tried to drive, how could there be enough room on the streets to accomodate all those cars?
The parking requirement in Chicago is largely to placate the many residents of the denser areas who complain that new development aggravates an already severe shortage of parking. Chicago is not like NYC in the sense that most Chicagoans do drive, and own cars, even if they do not use them to commute to work. NYC is pretty unique in America in having a culture where most people do not own cars.
I think what Chicago is doing is recognizing the reality that in most of the U.S., folks have a car, even in dense cities, even if transit meets many of their needs.
So they're saying: "you want to build residential space in dense areas--take responsibility by assuring you have parking for the cars they will generate."
(I think what Chicago is doing is recognizing the reality that in most of the U.S., folks have a car, even in dense cities, even if transit meets many of their needs).
I can understand requiring one parking space per unit, but TWO? Structured, those are $30,000 a piece.
It would be interesting to see comparative car-ownership statistics on Chicago and NYC. Chicago's rate is probably much higher, even though it surely is below the national average.
NYC is really in a class by itself on this point. Where else is it common for adults never to have gotten a driver's license? Even here in Chicago, getting a license is a rite of passage for most middle class teenagers.
[NYC is really in a class by itself on this point. Where else is it common for adults never to have gotten a driver's license? Even here in Chicago, getting a license is a rite of passage for most middle
class teenagers.]
And it's not just Manhattan. Car-ownership and licensure rates are way below national averages in the outer boroughs. Even in Staten Island, which is generally more suburban than urban in its development patterns and has many neighborhoods with poor transit, something like 20% of households (IIRC) have no cars and no licensed drivers.
I find that to be quite a remarkable fact about Staten Island. I would not have expected it. Does Staten Island have good public transit aside from the light rail line?
[re low car ownership rates on Staten Island]
[I find that to be quite a remarkable fact about Staten Island. I would not have expected it. Does Staten Island have good public
transit aside from the light rail line?]
Heavy rail, actually.
Staten Island does have a reasonably decent bus network, much of which provides feeder service to the Ferry terminal or to the rail line. Some neighborhoods also have express buses to Manhattan. My assessment is that Staten Island transit service is better than in most suburbs - which ain't sayin' much, of course - but worse, frequently a lot worse, than in most other parts of the city.
Car ownership rates probably vary quite a bit by neighborhood. Some of the poorer, higher density 'hoods along the north shore presumably have lower rates than the more affluent, more typically suburban areas farther south. I'd be interested in seeing statistics.
(Staten Island statistics)
I have them in the office, but NYC internet access has been terminated due to fear of "I Love You." As I recall, Staten Island car ownership is pretty damn high.
As for Chicago, we're not talking about requiring two spaces per unit on the outskirts of the city. We're talking about in and around the loop -- that's what doesn't make sense to me. If a car is for shopping and recreation, not travel to work, why do you need two? And if you don't work downtown, why live in the middle of Chicago? It doesn't make sense.
NYC auto ownership works like this:
The poor generally don't have cars, especially if they are immigrants.
The elderly generally don't have cars.
Young singles and couples generally don't have cars.
Middle- and upper-income families with children usually do have cars, even if they live in Manhattan.
The two car requirement is easily explained. Jersey City tried to get away with a one space per two unit ratio back in the mid-1980s, before the Crash (the response of the City Councilman sitting on the Planning Board at the time was classic: "I know they're making cars smaller, but I don't think you can fit two in one space"). It didn't work, and yuppie vehicles flooded corners and fire hydrants.
What is happening is that platonic roommates (the doubling up necessitated by astronomic rents, worse than Chicago's; as for the cost of the car and Jersey City's absurdly high insurance rates, this doesn't seem to enter the yuppie mindset) go their separate ways on weekends. As for Chicago being a Transit Town, I had an ex who broke up with me after her pot-smoking co-ed friends told her I had put her life in danger by taking the Congress to Oak Park after a concert at the United Center.
It all comes down to the following -- my car improves my quality of life and hurts yours, your car improves your quality of life and hurts mine. They should require one space, and charge for a permit to park on the street. If people are willing to pay for a second space, then builders can provide it. But to FORCE builders to provide it is absurd.
If you insist on having two cars, move to Piscataway.
Before the EPA forced the City to ban parking in new residential buildings in most of Manhattan, builders were required to provide parking. How much were they required to provide?
[NYC auto ownership works like this:
The poor generally don't have cars]
More precisely, they don't have cars that are registered or insured, and they don't have driver's licenses. That doesn't mean they don't drive, however.
Since I photographed them the other day, what's the definitive story? Did they go to a former LIRR platform?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes.
From http://www.nycsubway.org/bmt/brighton/
Until the mid-20s, a parallel service to the old Sheepshead Bay race track and Manhattan Beach was provided by the LIRR and branched off from the (today) South Brooklyn freight line that crosses under the Brighton Line between Avenues H & I. The racertrack covered an area which extended approximately from Ave. X to Ave. Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. Evidence of the railroad line can be seen in various places:
-- The "unusually long" bridge abutments on the east side of many of the avenue crossings along the Brighton Line embankment. Some of the houses built along East 16th Street use these abutments to support backyard porches!
-- An abandoned tunnel or flying junction at Avenue X which was part of the R.O.W. of the BRT - Sheepshead Bay Race Track.
-- At Gravesend Neck Road & East 16 Street, there are blocked up "stairways to nowhere". At one time, they led to the Neck Road station of the LIRR Manhattan Beach line The widely-spaced stairways would seem to indicate side platforms.
FYI....
This same location (East 16 Street / Gravesend Neck Road)
was used during location filming for an episode of
the "Naked City" television program during the early 1960's.
The stretch of Neck Road from E. 15 to East 16 also appeared,
briefly, in the 1993 film "A Bronx Tale" starring Robert De Niro.
On October 7, 1886, a 250-foot water tower, erected at East 16 Street and Avenue "W" (one short block south) for the Kings County Water Works, exploded violently during a preliminary trial and flooding the surrounding area.
And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years. On hot summer evenings, I can swear I can still hear four-unit D-types flying past towards Brighton Beach.
Nice to see a discussion of my "home" station when I was growing up in Brooklyn. I remember well the west side of E. 16th St. from Neck Rd. to Ave. Y as being undeveloped RR right of way until the early 1960s, when row houses were built along there. In those days, you could easily see where the race track line branched off from the Brighton.
I also recall "stairways to nowhere" at Elm Ave. (Ave. M). The LIRR Manhattan Beach line had a station there also. I don't know if the Elm Ave. stairs are still there.
-- Ed Sachs
<< I remember well the west side of E. 16th St. from Neck Rd. to Ave. Y as being undeveloped RR right of way until the early 1960s, when row houses were built along there. >>
I do, too, and I can remember the sloped dirt paths. We called this area "the funny hills", which was "off limits" to us "urchins" of East 15th. I can also remember, vividly, the beatings we'd get when my father would catch me or my brother playing there.
It was from these same "funny hills" that during a particularly hot summer's afternoon in 1964, at a time when the D-types were laid up on the southbound express track overnight and weekends, my younger brother, Ernie, and another kid decided to engage in target practice with the windows of the last "unit" of a D-type.
When they were done, EVERY window on the side of that unit was broken.
(Even the "local/exp" signs.) I showed up om the scene as the next lay-up pulled up just behind his leader, and we watched the motorman step into that very same unit to turn off the car lights. Needless to say, he wasn't too happy with what he discovered. Surprisingly, no one in the neighborhood heard this happening so the police weren't called. (My brother passed away in 1980.)
The "fly-under" at Avenue "Y" is still there (you have to know where to look, though.) The part of the abutments that carried the L.I.R.R. (and extended to the sidewalk on East 16th were demolished about 15 years ago to make way for houses. The steel trestle (for the south-bound ramp) is still there, and visible from the East 15th Street side (although the tunnel is completely filled inn with scrap ballast.) We used to play in that tunnel during the late 1950's until we were convinced that "The Blob" lived there (yes, from the movie). The tunnel portion has shallow niches in the walls.
Our next-door neighbor, George Steininger, had worked as a motorman, starting with the B.R.T. in 1910. During the late 1940's until he retired in 1955, he operated on the Brighton Local, and on early Sunday mornings, he'd buy the Daily News at a newsstand on the platform at Times Square, wrap it with rubber bands, and toss it out of his cab window into his backyard for his wife. One morning, he missed, and it landed in our backyard. My father didn't get along with this guy. My sister, Virginia, who had fallen and scraped her head the day before, was brought to my neighbor's door along with the newspaper. My father pointed to the newspaper, then to the bandage on my sister's head. Needless to say, the deliveries stopped. (It's a good thing he wasn't dropping off bottles of milk.)
The T.A. installed fencing along the line during the early 1970's. Before that, neighborhood kids would climb up to the south-bound platform to save the one-way fare to Coney Island. I still have pennies we'd put on the rail; we would hope for a 67-foot car. They did a smashingly better job than a D-type.
Memories, memories . . . . .
[And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years.]
Could you supply a photo of that ramp to the website www.forgotten-ny.com? Kevin Walsh, the webmaster would probably be interested in something like that for his site.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>And I've lived with the race-track ramp just beyond my backyard for more than 45 years. On hot summer
evenings, I can swear I can still hear four-unit D-types flying past towards Brighton Beach. <<<
Any way you can get a shot of that ramp for...
www.forgotten-ny.com?
I don't want to invade any backyards. I get enough problems from neighborhood denizens just by showing up with a camera in the street sometimes...
That's where a telephoto or zoom lens comes in handy. I'll bet my 180-600 mm howitzer would do the trick.
Does anyone have information about the former right of way to Rockaway? The old (and no longer extant) is said to have cut south from the LIRR further west than the current r/w, which originates in the vicinity of the Valley Stream station. This may or may not be associated with the "Cedarhurst cut-off" that is another former LIRR r/w that no longer exists.
The LIRR turn off is called "Whitepot" and can still be seen from the LIRR main, but don't wait too long for the trees & grass to come up.
It includes a cut off (Eastbound/South) and duck under (Westbound/North).
Also see the other end at Rockaway Blvd. on the A (at the split).
Mr t__:^)
No, he wasn't talking about that. I'm sure he knows about that one. There is a former ROW that went to the Far Rockaway E/O the present Far Rock Line through the Five Towns around the turn of the century. Very little is left of it. Bob Anderson?? Can you help??
Yes, this is what I am referring to. According to one LIRR site, this line was electrified in the 30's, and then abandoned! I am originally from Rosedale (between Laurelton and Valley Stream) and am wondering if the route of this line might have gone through my old neighborhood. In any event, it sounds like an interesting story.
I have some information on this branch on my website at the bottom of the individual branches page. I got some of the information from the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George.
Thank you for your response. This is exactly what I was referring to. Could you direct me to a map that shows this old r/w? Thanks.
I don't have a map of it, but my guess is that, from Laurelton, it ran between Edgewood and Lansing, then between Edgewood and Huxley then through North Woodmere Park, and eventually to cross the current Far Rockaway branch of the LIRR (at that time the South Side RR) at Cedarhurst.
I grew up in that immediate neighborhood. I am tickled to discover that a RR might once have run within a block of my childhood home. I am doubtful about the siting between Edgewood and Huxley, because that strip, (always referred to as the "gulley" by locals) is low lying wetland that routinely flooded when heavy rains were met by high tides in the nearby tidal salt water swamps (now part of Jamaica Bay Wildlife Preserve I believe.) Nonetheless, I recall certain odd encroachments in what we referred to as the 'swamp' that may, in retrospect, have had something to do with the former presence of a railroad. If you are interested in my thoughts on this, feel free to contact me at mpk0@mailexcite.com (that is a zero after mpk by the way, not an "oh".)
I wonder if there are any maps around from, say around 1930 when the line was electrified, that would show enough detail to see exactly where the ROW went?
Yes, those would be ideal. I am in Chicago these days, and far from any obvious sources, although the NY Public Library might be a resource.
There is a map from 1917 at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/New_York_City_1917.jpg
It shows the path of the cutoff from Springfield Jct to Cedarhurst.
-- Kirk
[There is a map from 1917 at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/Map_collection/historical/New_York_City_1917.jpg
It shows the path of the cutoff from Springfield Jct to Cedarhurst.]
Interesting map, but I'm suspicious of the 1917 date. It does not show the New York, Westchester and Boston line in the Bronx, which had been open for several years by that time.
Thanks for the map. It is hard to be entirely sure how the old r/w relates to the present street system, since almost none of the modern streets exist in this map! Not even the major ones like South Conduit Boulevard (Sunrise Highway)or Rockaway Boulevard. I can say for sure though, as someone who grew up in the area, that there is no trace of the r/w left in the residential neighborhoods. It is clear that all of the residential development occurred after the r/w was destroyed and the pattern of the development was not therefore effected by the old r/w.
There is an embankment of some sort that protrudes beyond the edge of residential development into undeveloped wetland. It may or may not have been a part of the route that the r/w took to cross the swampy areas between Rosedale and Cedarhurst. We always thought that it was an abandoned plan to extent the street system into the swamp for further development (things have changed, no way that wetland could be filled for development today.)
Thanks for the map. It is hard to be entirely sure how the old r/w relates to the present street system, since almost none of the modern streets exist in this map! Not even the major ones like South Conduit Boulevard (Sunrise Highway)or Rockaway Boulevard. I can say for sure though, as someone who grew up in the area, that there is no trace of the r/w left in the residential neighborhoods. It is clear that all of the residential development occurred after the r/w was destroyed and the pattern of the development was not therefore effected by the old r/w.
There is an embankment of some sort that protrudes beyond the edge of residential development into undeveloped wetland. It may or may not have been a part of the route that the r/w took to cross the swampy areas between Rosedale and Cedarhurst. We always thought that it was an abandoned plan to extend the street system into the swamp for further development (things have changed, no way that wetland could be filled for development today.)
On page 78 of "Change at Ozone Park" there is a picture of the ROW and the caption reads:"A 1951 view of the right of way of the abandoned Laurelton-Cedarhurst Cutoff just after it turned away from the station area. The site now has a home on it and one would never know a railroad ran there"
The more I think about this old r/w, the more I think there is a remnant of an embankment through the south shore wetlands no more than a block from where I grew up in Rosedale.
Brighton Line #1
Once again, it's time to report what I saw from the depths of my aprtment window. Another 5 car set of Bombardier R-142s have appeared in test service. These cars were delived a week and a half ago by the SBK. Cars 6311-6315 went on the road, southbound last night about 11PM. The test train was followed by a protection train made up of cars that the 142s will eventually replace, R-26s, 28s, and 29s from the 5. Strange.... On several occassions, personnel utilized an electric locomotive (E02) as the protection train. I guess it wasn't available this time around.
I haven't seen the new Kawasaki 5 car unit, but I expect it to be out and around at sometime....
-Stef
Tell me, what is a "protection train"? Thanks.
In this case it's a train they can use to couple onto a disabled train (in case the R142 test train fails) and pull/push it out of the way.
-Dave
That's sounds about right unless someone says otherwise. God forbid if there's trouble, someone's got to get the test train out of the way to keep traffic from being held up. Call it teething problems right now. With the sincerest hopes, those cars should be considred reliable considering the TA has very high expectations of how this equipment should perform.
-Stef
About what percent of the 142's are "tried and true" proven subway technologies, and how much are untested new engineering?
thats the question the what I have coined "" the transverse-cab-car club "" and thier supporters can not answer !!..
A follow up to your thread "" new ""does not always mean built better.... In total agreement with your post
"" tried and true & time proff proven subway technologies "" and many untested new to not so fail-safe enginerring ..
( try to explain this common sense to the transverse-cab-car-club !! ).........................!!!
finally check out the anger when you correctly post this and point this out !! .. the hysteria over the
""newness"" of the r-142s !!! the truth you said correctly is like shining bright light in a dark room full of roaches and watching them scatter !!
Actually I can't give you a figure. Someone else working closely with the project might know.
But I will tell you this, every train set will go through some teething problems. That's what this testing is for. To work out the bugs before large quantities of so called new cars are delivered. If there's a problem with some particular feature of the car, the option for the TA would be to review the design flaws, whatever it maybe. They can fix the problem by making revisions, or just drop the particular feature in question.
We're having this discussion about the proven technologies of the R-142s, but keep in mind these will not be the first cars to have had any kind of trouble the first time on the road (if any). The R-62s and the R-68s were troublesome at first. As I recall, didn't they go on to become among the most reliable cars in the fleet? What does that say? What critic can predict the future and say that the R-142s won't be proven to be reliable? If there's a fortune teller out here who knows how things will turn out, I'd like to hear about it.
-Stef
P.S. As a side note, on this particular topic, the R-142 test train returned several minutes ago with a protection train trailing and headed northbound to E180th St Yard.
The new car acceptance program consists of 72 separate tests, of which the 30-day in-service test is Number 72. Some of the tests must be done individually, while others can be done concurrently. At any rate, they're not up to Number 72 yet and won't be for a few weeks.
David
72 Tests? That's pretty good. At least they're working on producing results. I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that the 142s get through all the tests and especially test 72 without incident.
Regards,
Stef
Does anyone know (or know some who knows) how the testing is proceeding. Either good, bad, or something inbetween?
Does anyone know when the SBK receives new subway cars? I would love to go down to Brooklyn to see them unload them of of ships.
The cars are no longer brought through the South Brooklyn Yards! Most of them are trucked in or locomotived in!
R142 Boi 2K
What R142 Boi 2K is trying to say is that car deliveries are done at locations other than the yard at the piers. SBK engines are utilized for such deliveries of cars, but deliveries are done at Linden Yard on the east end of Brooklyn, where the SBK units pick up the cars from the NY and Atlantic Rwy.
-Stef
So far, the test have been going great, not much adjusting needed to be done. The only problem they had was during the Trip Cock test but by now I'd guess that they'd have that adjusted and up to par.
It was the Bombardier set that was really having the Trip Cock problem.
R142 Boi 2K
OK, folks, sharpen your pencils. Implied routes are not necessarily from today's service patterns. Some questions may have more than one correct answer. Good luck! Here we go:
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The routes are the B and D, the terminals are CI and 57/7.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
Dont' know
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
The E and F. The stations are W 4 St and Jay Street
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
B and D
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
C and AA
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
F and G
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
dont know
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
N and R
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 4 and 6
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
dont know
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
E and F
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become? DONT KNOW
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded. dont know
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
At 47-50/6, the F is to the east of the B/D/Q. At 42/6, the F is on the west.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them. 5 and 6
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes. 7 and shuttles
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
2 and 3
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
dont know
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they? 2 and 5
BTW, great quiz. Post answers once others get a chance to post their responses.
2: Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
(F) and at 34th St & CI
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
(1) and (3)
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
(D) and (E) at 53rd & 7th.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
(7) and (L)
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
(D) and (Q)
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
(A) and (C)
2: Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
(F) and < N > at 34th St & CI
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
(1) and (3)
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
(D) and (E) at 53rd & 7th.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
(7) and (L)
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
(D) and (Q)
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
(A) and (C)
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
My guess would be A & AA
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
My guess would be B & M
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
My guess is A & C
18 is D and Q. I just realized it.
"4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?"
But for one station in the difference -- Nereid Ave. (238th St.) vs. Wakefield-241st St., that would describe the 2 and the rush-hour 5 today.
"8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them."
The N and the R.
"9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them."
The rush-hour 5 and the 6.
"15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them."
The non-rush-hour 5 (terminating at Bowling Green) and the 6 (terminal at Brooklyn Bridge).
"16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes."
The L and the 7.
"17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them."
The 2 and the 3.
"19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn."
The A and the C.
Here's my answers -- some of the questions seemed to duplicate and I wasn't able to figure them all out.
1. The N and Q left Stillwell from opposite directions and both wound up at 57th Street in Manhattan.
2.
3. E & F from 179th, were on two levels at West 4th, and side-by-side and Jay Street/Boro hall.
4. 2 & 5
5. AA & BB
6. F & GG
7.
8. N & RR (?)
9. 5 & 6
10. CC & D
11. #7 is one of them
12.
13. 53rd St./Seventh Avenue on the B & D
14. D & F between 47/50th & 42nd.
15.
16. 7 & L
17-20. ?
This is without looking at any of the responses, and by someone from Philadelphia, and without a map. So I'm not cheating.
6. If it wasn't for the "Brooklyn" part, I'd say A and C.
11. E and F
16. 7 and L
20. 4 and some 5s
19. J and M
10 and 9. 1 and 3
17. 2 and 3
8. N and R
15. 5 and 6
I'll try my best at these...
1. No idea - but I think they're from Times Square to Coney Island...
2. The E and GG lines, at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
3. The E and F, on different levels at West 4th Street, and across at Jay Street.
4. Probably the 2 and the since shortened 5 thru-express, beginning at 241 Street and ending at Flatbush.
5. B (168 - 34 at the time) and C (168 - WTC).
6. The G and F.
7. The A and 168-World Trade Center C.
8. The N and R lines... too bad about that bridge situation.
9. Probably the 4 and 5 (Bowling Green version). But the 4 and 6 are also possible.
10. The 1/9 and 3 lines.
11. The E and F lines - express in Queens, local in Manhattan.
12. The N and EE became the (N) and <N>, running (N) 57th to Coney Island (express on Broadway) and <N> 71-Continental to Whitehall (local on Broadway)
13. 7th Avenue and 53rd Street: the E to Queens and the B/D to Central Park West. (I consulted one relevant track map for this one.)
14. Probably the southbound-only B and F on 49th - 42nd.
15. The 5 to Bowling Green and the 6.
16. The L line and 7 line (if you don't count the 7 express as another line). The two main shuttles also don't share track with any others.
17. The 2 and 3 lines.
18. The D and Q, currently.
19. The A and C on weekends.
20. The B and D, obviously.
1.?????
2. ???????
3. E and F W.4St and Jay St
4. 2 and 5
5. C and K ???
6. F and G
7. ????????
8. N and R
9. 1 and 2 or 4 and 6
10. 1 and 3
11. E and F
12. ?????
13. ??????
14. D and F CI Bound 47-50 then 42St
15. 5 and 6
16. 7 and L
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q
19. A and C
20. 2 and 5
BM34x
1. QB and N; 57th Street-7th Avenue
2. E and GG, Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street.
3. E and F, West 4th street and Jay Street
4. 2 and 5, Flatbush Avenue? BTW they diverge in the Bronx at Mott Avenue.
5. AA and BB.
6. F and GG, or today's F and G.
7. A and AA, with today's equivalent being the A and C.
8. N and R.
9. 4 and 5.
10. 1 and 3
11. E (in Queens) and N (in Brooklyn, on 4th Avenue)
12. This is a guess: EE and N...
13. N and 7 at Qveensboro Plaza. The N appears to be operating lefthanded on the Queens-bound upper level and the 7 appears to be operating lefthanded on the Manhattan-bound lower level.
14. F and B/D/Q at 47th-50th Street and 42nd Street.
15. 5 and 6, at Bowling-Green and Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, respectively.
16. L and 7.
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q.
19. A and C
20. B and D.
Wayne
1. N and QB: 57 St/7 Av-Coney Island
2. GG and E, Hoyt-Schermerhorn
3. E and F, West 4th Street (different levels), Jay St (cross platform)
4. 2 and rush hour 5
5. AA and 1 (not 242 Street trains)
6. F and G
7. A and AA, now C
8. N and R
9. 4 and 6
10. 1 and 3
11. E, F, N, 6*, 7*
12. RR, RJ --> RR
13. B, D, E; 7th Avenue; both directions
14. Downtown 6th Av line, Rockefeller Center-42 Street
15. 5 and 6
16. 7 and L
17. 2 and 3
18. D and Q
19. A and C
20. B and D
Looks Easy...
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The QB and the NX both left Brighton Beach Station in opposite directions, and both terminated at 57/7. The NX ran via the Sea Beach, the QB via the Brighton. Also, during the north side Manny B shutdown, the D, B, and N did the same thing, most hours. The D left Coney Island southbound and ran via Brighton, the B left northbound and ran via West End, the N northbound and via Sea Beach. Oh, and let's not forget various different permutations of the Nassau Street Loop service, when it ran via the Manhattan Bridge.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
This one has me a bit stumped. I can only think of the Jamacia/Lexington and Myrlte Ave Els. But they ran together from Brooklyn and had seperate stations near Myrtle and Washington, IIRC. Was the downtown Brooklyn terminal a loop? Now, if you want to think PARALLEL instead of on the same track, the F and one of the versions of the KK. The F would enter all the 6th Ave stations from the north, while the KK would enter from the south.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
This would be the E and F prior to 1974? or so. The E used to be Queens Blvd/8 Ave/Fulton, and the F was Queens Blvd/6 Ave/Culver. They'd run together on Queens Blvd, split up at 53St/5Ave meet on seperate levels at W4St, split up again, and meet again across the platform at Jay St in Brooklyn, and then split again.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
That is most likely the 2 and the 5 from 241St to Nostrand Ave, Utica Ave, or New Lots Ave, depending on exactly when the train left the terminal in the Bronx.
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
The AA (later K) and CC (later C) The AA was a daytime, non-rush train from WTC to 168st; the CC replaced it on weekends from WTC to 145St. And though technically a shuttle, the Grand St Shuttle from Grand St to 57St.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
The F and G.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
The AA, B, and C come to mind immediately, with the AA and B coming from 168, and the C from 145. The AA ended at WTC, the C and B continued to Brooklyn. But I don't think they all ran together at the same time from those terminals. Most definately the AA and C did not.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
The N and R. The N from Astoria, the R from Forest Hills run on the Broadway and 4Ave lines between Lexington Ave and 59St (Brooklyn) where they split up; the R continuing on the 4Ave line, the N going to the Sea Beach.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 2 on the West Side, the 4 and 6 on the East Side. The 1 from W242 and B'way, the 2 from E241 and White Plains Rd. The 1 ends at South Ferry, while the 2 runs to Nostrand Ave in Brooklyn. The 4 starts at Woodlawn and Jerome in the Bronx, the 6 from Pelham Bay Park. The 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, the 4 continues to Utica Ave in Brooklyn.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 3. The 1 from the Bronx (see previous) and the 3 from Lenox Terminal. See previous for the 1, while the 3 runs to New Lots Ave in Brooklyn.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
The F, 6, and 7 all fit this answer. The F on Queens Blvd, the 6 on the Pelham Line, and the 7 on the Flushing Line. All 3 have express service, but are local in Manhattan, unless there's a GO.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
I'm thinking QJ and RJ, but I'm also thinking B and TT. Can't dfetail my answer since I'm actually not sure here.
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean the northbound is on the left, 7Ave/53St fits for the B and D on the lower level, and the southbound E on the upper level. If you mean Express on the left southbound, that's 47-50 Rockerfeller Center where the B, D, and Q come from Columbus Circle or 21st.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
B/D/F/Q Southbound 47-50 and 42St on the 6Ave Line.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
The 5 and 6, East Side IRT. The 5 starts at Dyre Ave or 238St and ends at Bowling Green, the 6 starts at Pelham Bay Park and ends at Brooklyn Bridge. Both run on the East Side IRT.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
The Flushing (7) Line and Canarsie (L) Line. Of course, the Times Square and Franklin Ave shuttles fit this answer as well.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
The midday B and the D. D from 205St via the Concourse line, the B from 145st on the CPW Line. Both share track from 145/St. Nicholas Ave to the Myrtle Ave Jct. coming off the Manhattan Bridge, where the D makes a station stop and runs on the Brighton, and the B skips the station and runs on the West End. The night B also works, but alas, its terminal is Queens, however, pre 1993 this would have been a good answer.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The A from 207 and C from 168, both via 8Ave/Fulton lines.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
The B and D. See previous answers to previous questions
-Hank
Looks Easy...
1. Once upon a time, two routes departed from the same terminus in Brooklyn but in opposite directions, and wound up at the same Manhattan destination. What were these two routes and their terminals?
The QB and the NX both left Brighton Beach Station in opposite directions, and both terminated at 57/7. The NX ran via the Sea Beach, the QB via the Brighton. Also, during the north side Manny B shutdown, the D, B, and N did the same thing, most hours. The D left Coney Island southbound and ran via Brighton, the B left northbound and ran via West End, the N northbound and via Sea Beach. Oh, and let's not forget various different permutations of the Nassau Street Loop service, when it ran via the Manhattan Bridge.
2. Back in the good old days, two routes began in Queens during rush hour and ran side by side for part of their journey before taking diverging paths. They would meet further along the same journey, but would enter one particular station from opposite ends. Name the two routes and the station where this phenomenon occurred.
This one has me a bit stumped. I can only think of the Jamacia/Lexington and Myrlte Ave Els. But they ran together from Brooklyn and had seperate stations near Myrtle and Washington, IIRC. Was the downtown Brooklyn terminal a loop? Now, if you want to think PARALLEL instead of on the same track, the F and one of the versions of the KK. The F would enter all the 6th Ave stations from the north, while the KK would enter from the south.
3. Once upon a time, two routes started in Queens from the same terminus during rush hour and at one stretch ran on the same track. They parted company in Manhattan, then stopped at the same station at one point but on different levels. After taking separate paths to Brooklyn, they met once again, this time across the platform from one another. Name the routes and stations in question.
This would be the E and F prior to 1974? or so. The E used to be Queens Blvd/8 Ave/Fulton, and the F was Queens Blvd/6 Ave/Culver. They'd run together on Queens Blvd, split up at 53St/5Ave meet on seperate levels at W4St, split up again, and meet again across the platform at Jay St in Brooklyn, and then split again.
4. In bygone days, two routes started in the Bronx during rush hour at the same terminus, went their separate ways in Manhattan, met up again in Brooklyn, and terminated at the same station. What were they?
That is most likely the 2 and the 5 from 241St to Nostrand Ave, Utica Ave, or New Lots Ave, depending on exactly when the train left the terminal in the Bronx.
5. At one time, there were two routes which operated exclusively in Manhattan, but not at the same time. Name these two mainline routes. Note: shuttles do not count.
The AA (later K) and CC (later C) The AA was a daytime, non-rush train from WTC to 168st; the CC replaced it on weekends from WTC to 145St. And though technically a shuttle, the Grand St Shuttle from Grand St to 57St.
6. Two routes begin in Queens, part company, and meet again in Brooklyn. One of these routes is entirely encompassed within the other. In other words, one begins after, and ends before, the other. Name these two routes.
The F and G.
7. Once upon a time, two routes started in Manhattan at different terminals and ran side by side with one route terminating in Manhattan and the other continuing to Brooklyn. Name these routes. As a bonus, name today's counterpart.
The AA, B, and C come to mind immediately, with the AA and B coming from 168, and the C from 145. The AA ended at WTC, the C and B continued to Brooklyn. But I don't think they all ran together at the same time from those terminals. Most definately the AA and C did not.
8. Two routes start in Queens at different locations, converge before entering Manhattan, and share common trackage all the way to Brooklyn, where they go their separate ways. Name them.
The N and R. The N from Astoria, the R from Forest Hills run on the Broadway and 4Ave lines between Lexington Ave and 59St (Brooklyn) where they split up; the R continuing on the 4Ave line, the N going to the Sea Beach.
9. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines, then run side by side in Manhattan. One of them ends in Manhattan while the other continues to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 2 on the West Side, the 4 and 6 on the East Side. The 1 from W242 and B'way, the 2 from E241 and White Plains Rd. The 1 ends at South Ferry, while the 2 runs to Nostrand Ave in Brooklyn. The 4 starts at Woodlawn and Jerome in the Bronx, the 6 from Pelham Bay Park. The 6 ends at Brooklyn Bridge, the 4 continues to Utica Ave in Brooklyn.
10. Two routes run side by side in Manhattan at one point. One begins in the Bronx, the other in Manhattan. The former ends in Manhattan while the latter goes on to Brooklyn. Name them.
The 1 and 3. The 1 from the Bronx (see previous) and the 3 from Lenox Terminal. See previous for the 1, while the 3 runs to New Lots Ave in Brooklyn.
11. Name the two routes which run express at one point, but not in Manhattan.
The F, 6, and 7 all fit this answer. The F on Queens Blvd, the 6 on the Pelham Line, and the 7 on the Flushing Line. All 3 have express service, but are local in Manhattan, unless there's a GO.
12. In the mid-70s, two routes were integrated, resulting in essentially two different services with the same marking. What were they and what did they become?
I'm thinking QJ and RJ, but I'm also thinking B and TT. Can't dfetail my answer since I'm actually not sure here.
13. Name the two routes, the station, and the direction in which they appear to be operating lefthanded.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean the northbound is on the left, 7Ave/53St fits for the B and D on the lower level, and the southbound E on the upper level. If you mean Express on the left southbound, that's 47-50 Rockerfeller Center where the B, D, and Q come from Columbus Circle or 21st.
14. At a certain station, two routes are side by side across the platform. At the next station, they are still side by side, but appear to have traded places without any switching maneuvers. Name these routes and the stations involved.
B/D/F/Q Southbound 47-50 and 42St on the 6Ave Line.
15. Two routes start in the Bronx on different lines and run side by side in Manhattan. Both end in Manhattan, but at different terminals. Name them.
The 5 and 6, East Side IRT. The 5 starts at Dyre Ave or 238St and ends at Bowling Green, the 6 starts at Pelham Bay Park and ends at Brooklyn Bridge. Both run on the East Side IRT.
16. Name the two routes which do not share trackage with any other routes.
The Flushing (7) Line and Canarsie (L) Line. Of course, the Times Square and Franklin Ave shuttles fit this answer as well.
17. Two routes share the same track in Manhattan. One begins in Manhattan, the other in the Bronx. Both continue on to Brooklyn before parting company. Name them.
The midday B and the D. D from 205St via the Concourse line, the B from 145st on the CPW Line. Both share track from 145/St. Nicholas Ave to the Myrtle Ave Jct. coming off the Manhattan Bridge, where the D makes a station stop and runs on the Brighton, and the B skips the station and runs on the West End. The night B also works, but alas, its terminal is Queens, however, pre 1993 this would have been a good answer.
18. These two routes begin in separate boroughs outside of Manhattan. Once they meet, they operate together the rest of the way to Brooklyn. One continues after the other ends. Name these two routes.
The Q from Queens and the D from the Bronx. They meet at 47-50, and operate togther down 6Ave, over the Manhattan Bridge, and down the Brighton line. The Q ends at Brighton Beach, while the D continues to Coney Island.
19. Name the two routes which begin in Manhattan and operate side by side in Manhattan and Brooklyn.
The A from 207 and C from 168, both via 8Ave/Fulton lines.
20. During rush hours, two routes start in the Bronx at different terminals, run side by side in the Bronx and Manhattan, take separate paths in Brooklyn, and end up at the same terminal. What are they?
The B and D. See previous answers to previous questions
So, What do I win?
-Hank
I'm interested in how the cams gradually reduce resistance to the traction motors during acceleration. How fast are the resistance steps notched out? Is it dependent on current speed (a feedback system) or does it just happen at some preset rate? About how long does it take for the cam to travel the full extent (which I guess is related to the rate of acceleration the car is capable of)?
Hope some of you tech oriented sub-talkers can shed some light on this.
Bill J.
I think it's time for the subtalktechies to write a book, or
at least a web page! Actually, Ray & Ray of the Electric
Railroader's Association I think are working on a series of articles
on the topic of controls.
Here goes. You seem to know that there is a cam which advances,
at each step closing a switch that bypasses another portion of the
grid resistance. The cam is advanced by a battery-voltage (38 volts)
motor on General Electric cars and by an air piston on Westinghouse
cars (although the TA is now replacing the older WH gear with
E-CAM which I think uses a pilot motor....Steve will jump in if
I'm wrong since he's dealing with E-CAM these days).
When the train is running in Switching, the cam does not advance
and resistance stays in the circuit continuously. When the controller
is moved to Series, the cams start to advance. There are 9 steps
in series. At the 9th step, the motors are in series with each other
and the line, and all resistance is removed. If the controller
is in Series then the cam will not advance further. If the controller
is in Parallel, the cam will be allowed to advance further into
the parallel notches (on GE controllers the cam actually runs backward
here). There are 8 parallel notches..In the first resistance is
re-inserted into the circuit, except now the motors are in parallel.
By the last parallel notch, each motor group is directly across
the line. Then there are an additional 2 notches of field shunting,
but that's been disabled on the entire fleet. Grrrrr.
What controls the advance of the cam, you asked? (yes, you did)
The current flowing through the motor circuit is continuously
measured. On older cars they used a series-wound relay, now they
use a solid-state circuit. Whenever the cam advances, resistance
is notched out, and therefore current increases. The cam then
holds in that notch until the current subsides. This happens because
as the car gains speed, the counter-EMF increases and opposes the
line voltage. When the current reaches a preset value, called
the notching current, the cam is allowed to advance another notch.
The torque, and therefore the acceleration rate, produced by a
series DC motor is directly related to the current through it.
I'd say it is proportional, but it is not....it is a messy non-linear
equation. Nonetheless, for a given motor current there will be
a given torque. The notching current is therefore selected to deliver
a specific torque based on the weight and gear ratio of the car.
This tuning is done by the manufacturer.
All this would be fine except that weight varies as a function of
passenger loading. There is a sensor that measures the loaded
weight of the car. This measurement is taken every time the car
doors close, the logic being that passenger loading shouldn't change
while the doors are shut! A circuit increases or decreases the
notching current setpoint depending on sensed weight. The effect
is to deliver an approximately constant acceleration rate regardless
of loading. There are now speedometers in all cars, but they do
not form a part of the control loop for the motors.
How long does it take the cam to reach the last notch? In theory,
this would be a constant time since the acceleration rate is fixed.
In practice, grade is not factored into the rate circuits. A train
will accelerate faster than the spec rate (which is 2.5 MPHPS)
on a downgrade and slower on an upgrade. This will affect how long
each notch is held. Regardless, the last notch is reached somewhere
between 16 and 22 MPH.
Did you know that you can notch up a train by hand? Unfortunately,
you can only use this technique to make the train notch up more
slowly. There is no way to "kick" the groups (a feature that is
provided on some older trolley car MU systems).
I hope this is helpful.
"All this would be fine except that weight varies as a function of passenger loading. There is a sensor that measures the loaded weight of the car. This measurement is taken every time the car doors close, the logic being that passenger loading shouldn't change while the doors are shut!
Formerly, the car's weight was monitored by a device called the 'Load Sensor'. It was activated by the Guard Light finger on the 'signal light relay' (SLR). When the doors closed, the car was weighed by a change in air pressure. That's why you heard that little puff when the doos closed. Of course, if 20 or 30 people boarded at the front of the train and the doors closed. the first car was weighed. Then as they walked towards the rear of the train in search of seats, the equilibrium in accelleration & braking was upset. Hence, today we use a slightly different system. A valve mounted over the #1 truck, called a load sensor, continually measures the car weight. The propulsion package is immediately updated as to any change in car weight,resulting in a smoother ride.
Wow! Jeff H. and Train Dude, thanks. I think you guys just wrote a good first draft for the propulsion article! I had no idea the control system was that sophisticated.
Does the loading factor adjustment help prevent cars from bumping and tugging on each other as the train starts out? IIRC in the old days on Philly's Broad Street subway and even some of the older redbirds there was a lot of bumping and banging as trains pulled out of stations.
Thanks again for your well written and informative answers.
Bill J.
The whole thing sounds like an empty/load valve on a coal gon.
Oh that's nothing. Let's talk about AC drive with it's choppers, inverters, GTO's and thyristors.
Wait, you called both things a load sensor. The older system
was called a "variable load valve", and was mounted on the car
body with a connecting rod that rested on the truck bolster. Thus,
as the car was loaded, the deflection of the bolster increased and
this adjusted the position of both a potentiometer for the propulsion
package and a relay valve for the air brakes. The variable load
reset magnet valve latched the rod position when the doors closed.
The only cars I know of that still use that system are the Flushing
33/36 fleet.
How is load sensed using the new load sensors? Is it a strain gauge,
or mechanical? How does the system prevent hunting and bouncing
from affecting the reading (a low pass filter I'd imagine)?
Jeff, you are 100% correct. In my rush this AM I did call both Load Sensors and as you properly pointed out, the former was called the variable Load valve. As for how the load sensor works, it's very similar in operation to the Variable Load Valve. There is a striker plate mounted on the #1 truck and the valve is mounted on the car body above it. The position of the bolster determines the position of striker plate and consequently, the load sensor arm. The valve acts as a transducer, converting the mechanical position of the arm into a variable air pressure signal (15 - 75 LBS I think). Whereas the variable load sensor repositioned a rheostat each time the side doors were closed, the load sensor sends continuous signals to the propulsion logic which allows the logic circuit to continually re-calculate the load & adjust for it.
So it is basically the same thing except there is no freeze
when the doors are open and there is no rheostat.
Looking over my GE drawings for SCM-I, I answer my other question
about rocking. It appears that a capacitor is connected across
the load sensor pressure transducer circuit to act as a low-pass.
Got on this train (this or the 16:48 I use everyday) coming home from work. Since I wasn't dog-tired, I decided to look out the railfan window. I immediatly took notice of a radio conversation the TO was having with the tower. Much of it was garbled but I distinctly heard "front truck of motor car 4488". I suspected something was wrong but the train was operating fine. However, as soon as we switched over to the middle track at Essex St I suspected that the train would get discharged. I was right. Anyone know what exactly caused this train to be take out of service? The train ran fine from Fulton to Essex.
What is a railfan window? Why is this not explained in the FAQ?
[What is a railfan window? Why is this not explained in the FAQ?]
It's the window in the front door of a subway's lead car, right next to the motorman's cab. You'll also see them on LIRR and Metro North electric trains. Unfortunately, some subway car models (R-44 and up, except R-62) have full-width cabs and hence no railfan windows.
Actually the R62s are starting to lose them. They're gone from the 1 Line now.
WHOOPS!!! Peter Rosa said R62s. Those run on the 4 Line. They have no more railfan windows. The R62As out of Van Cortlandt Park Yard (Red Stickers) have full width cabs as well. They don't have it neither. Actually, I believe that all 5 cars set trains don't have them anymore. The only ones that I know that have them are the ones from the 3 Line (Singles).
There is absolutely no reason why railfan windows and transverse cabs don't mix. Ever seen the cab window on the HBLR?
I looked through a pseudo-railfan window on a R-62 #4 train yesterday. As long as the Train Operator's cab door window and the storm door window are both unobstructed (which they are supposed to be by rule), it's possible.
David
There's a rule against obstucting the pseudo-railfan window? Why, then, do I sometimes see newspapers, advertisements, etc. covering them, and what's with the glass on the R44, 46, 68(A) cars? It's not completely clear, and some of the light passing through it gets distorted.
The window on the 44/46/68/68A has a polarizer on it, which reduces the glare on the windows in the cab. You see black if you look left or right, but the view straight ahead is somewhat distorted.
-Hank
Newspapers, etc. sometimes obstruct the Train Operator's window because some Train Operator put them there. It's done either for glare or for privacy. Doing something doesn't make it legal or within the rules to do so.
David
Well, apparently you've never read any of salaam allah's old threads (you're saner for it, believe me!). However, railfan windows are actually the viewing window on the end-doors -- or more appropriately the storm-doors -- of subway/rapid transit cars. In most cases they give an excellent view of the road ahead, and are naturally the place where railfans tend to congregate -- hence 'railfan window'.
Doug aka BMTman
.............but If I answered this then I would have to endure a long line of children launching
flamage attacks and personal insults etc......
what i do like about railfan window equipped transit cars is an oppertunity to show on vidieo
what it is like to ride on such equipment I am only sorry that nightshot and 0.6. light lux 8 mm vidieo
camcorders with lp speed 4 hour recording modes were around during the days of the pre world war 2
subway and transit cars etc... !! especially with the 0.6 light lux and 0 light lux ""nightshot ""...!!!
In Chicago, they used to have a railfan seat before OPTO. Now they
block the whole front end off of trains that don't have full-width
cabs.
IIRC, there was a CTA president who was a railfan himself. He saw to it that cars built during his tenure had a railfan seat. The funny thing is, I never sat in one of them. I always stood at the storm door.
i found that out when like in 1981 i tried to shoot thru the railfan window only to find out that
"" the transverse cab car club "" was alive and well ....!! ruined my chicago experence ...
Actually there might be a way to get all those cab door windows cleaned up. How bout making it a public safety issue? If the windows are obscured, the operator (who has a radio for help) can never see what's going on in the passenger compartment.
It's an easy play for some politician to make and the MTA wouldn't have a leg to stand on (nor would the operators).
With apologies to those of you who drive trains and don't like goofy people staring at you..
Bill J.
Stupid idea. Who watches the other 6-7-8 cars of the train that DON'T have a crewman now? This is another failure of the anti-OPTO arguement. The majority of the cars are already unstaffed!
-Hank
I was reading a placard in the Customs House today, and it referred to a planned subway station in the sub-basement that has been converted to an auditorium. It seems that the original tile walls are still in place. Anyone know what it was intended for?
I'm sorry but where's the Customs House? I know where the current one is in the WTC complex but I suspect you are talking about the older one?
-Dave
[I'm sorry but where's the Customs House? I know where the current one is in the WTC complex but I suspect you are talking about the older one?]
At the foot of Bowling Green. It currently houses the Museum of the American Indian and the bankruptcy court.
See Ghost Buster II for exterior view.
since the custom house is right over Bolwing Green it might be part of it
[since the custom house is right over Bolwing Green it might be part of it]
The Bowling Green Lexington Avenue station is immediately to the west, on Broadway/State Street, while the N/R Whitehall Street Station is immediately east.
It's a spectacular building with a wonderful location, and whenever I'm there I toy with the idea of turning it into a train station.
You'd just have to screw the American Indian again, that's all.
-Hank
why do you want to screw american indians again ?
[You'd just have to screw the American Indian again, that's all.
-Hank ]
I'd leave the museum pretty much where it is. If anything, traffic would increase.
Whatever happened to the R110?
05/04/2000
[Whatever happened to the R110?]
If you're talking about the R-110A (IRT), it seems to have died from lack of parts. Revival of any kind is not certain.
Now the R-110B (BMT-IND), some on this site say it's laid up and some say it's running. If anybody out there can help the flange master, speak up!
Bill Newkirk
The R110Ais not in revenue service anymore...but have no fear, a better version called the R142 will be in service come this summer.
Apparently the R110B makes a couple trips a day M-F, and leaves Euclid ave at either 9:56 or 10:06 AM, and sometimes makes an afternoon trip too....but this schedule is not always followed. -Nick
Will the R-110's be rebuilt to be compatable and run with the new trains when they are all delivered?
The bodies can't be that different from the production cars, and if they are rebuilt and upgraded with the new running gear so they are compatable with the new cars they could get some extra life out of them.
Outside of the R-143 being 6-1/2 feet longer, maybe there's no difference between the R-110B and R-143 carbodies :-)
David
I must remember to engage brain before fingers...
The R-110B, at 67 feet long, is 6-1/2 feet longer than the R-143, at 60-1/2 feet.
David
Can anyone ID this loco?
Daniel
Can anyone ID this loco?
Daniel
It looks like it might be a GM SW 1200. I may be wrong about the model but it sure looks to be built by General Motors. It is probably about 40 years old.
EMD Sw7, SW9, and SW l200 almost identical in appearance, but the Diesel Spotters Guide spotting features rule out the SW7; most likely al200 as these were a very little bit newer built between l954 and l966. The SW9 from l95l thru l953. I had a blast running these on Montana Rail Link at Laurel Yard... not much for tonnage but sure were lively.. better than their successor.
What are L200, L954, L966, L95L and L953? Aircraft manufactured by Lockheed?
Looks like a SW1200
If you learned how to type in the days before computers or electric typewriters, a lower-case 'L' is what you used for a '1', since the keyboard lacked it. A buddy of mine has an anchient Smith-Corona; standard QWERTY layout, but no '1' key.
This concludes our brief history lesson.
-Hank
What about the other numbers, how would one type them?
There were keys for 2-9 and a 0, which on a typewriter was different enough that it mattered. Most of the punctuation was on different keys, not as the shift for the numbers.
-Hank
I can identify this unit. The official designation is SSB1200. They are rebuilds of older switchers from the 1950s, namely the SW9. SSB1200 stands for Switcher San Bernadino, 1200 horsepower. The locomotives are of Santa Fe origin, rebuilt at the San Bernadino Shops in California, and upgraded to 1200 horsepower. 18 SSB1200s were traded to AMTK in the 1980s for other equipment that AMTK desired to dispose of. You can find these in numerous locations, but I can tell you that you can find the SSB1200s at Sunnyside Yard in Queens, and up in New Haven, CT.
Hope this helps,
Stef
Specifically, they were traded for a smaller number of SDP40Fs, the original lemon.
-Hank
Right. Amtrak got rid of it's SDP40Fs in exchange for the SSB1200s and the CF7s. You can still find those SSB1200s on the road, but most CF7s are probably gone, these days.
-Stef
Amtrak may have thought they were lemons -- but seventeen of the eighteen are still running on the BNSF nowadays. The other one? It was wrecked in one of those nasties on Cajon Pass, north of San Bernardino, CA.
Kinda like some certain "lemons" that NYCTA had -- they "went elsewhere" and many of them are still running, quite well, to this day (and right across the river, at that....)
Ah, Yes, the SDP40F, Now Known as SDF40's on BNSF they weighed something like 210 tons and were a high speed engine. when combined with the bad track of the time, there were several derailments., some theories centered on the HTC truck (Same truck used on the magnificent MFE36D6 (SD45-2) Erie Lackawanna engines) Unfortunately this misconception led to Conrail specifying old style Flexicoils for it's SD40-2's although the HTC was a far superior truck. Yes, ATSF got a good deal on some fine locomotives.
The following is a message from the Metropolitan Transit Authority.
We will be shutting down train service on the #7 between Manhattan and Queens this weekend. We will also be cancelling J train service over the Williamsburg Bridge. We've noticed that service has gotten rather reliable of late, and we don't want you to get your expectations too high. We're here to make money, after all, not to cater to your convenience. Don't like it? Buy a car.
The New York City Transit Authority. Going out of our way to make your trips miserable.
That's OK. The Mets are out of town anyway, Flushing their season down the toilet.
I actually approve of the practice of shutting down service, rather than pay twice as much to have disruption three times as long by keeping service open.
Come out to Queensboro Plaza tomorrow - I'll be therea few times during the day - and see what it is like when 7 service shuts down to Manhattan. We usually have abig problem, since there are not a lot of us that speak Korean (Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, Mexican, Tagalog - you get the idea) and most of the riders on the 7 stare blankly when we talk to them in English, making for great fun trying to get them off the train.
Are they going to jack up N service to Whitehall for the occasion? Seems only fair.
>>>>Are they going to jack up N service to Whitehall for the occasion? Seems only fair. <<<
That's FUNNY! Got any more jokes?....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I know. That's even worth a rim shot. N service has been jacked up for the last decade since the south side Money Pit tracks have been closed.
No, they didn't. However, for the next three weekends there will be more service (than usual) on the 7, while the B division works on a GO suspending service passing thru Roosevelt Ave - I don't know what they are doing; any B div people out there?
I can't imagine what the MTA employees have to put up having to make the same announcements once, twice, thrice, quatrice..., ONLY to those people who doesn't understand English... even with big loudspeakers! ... and one word at a time! Some people still asks them if it was the last stop. I fear to be involved in the complications of the situation.
What's the problem? The train isn't going out of service. Make the announcement once or twice and then close up and go back the other way. After one or two stops, the non-English speakers will get the idea.
I got news for you: people who speak English fluently and understand it fully don't listen to directions or announcements.
Case in point: On a downtown '4', someone asks me how to get to 14th and 8th. I tell them to get off at 14th and go upstairs, following signs to the 'L'. When we reach 14th, they run across the platform to the waiting '6'. I wave frantically, yelling to get off and go UPSTAIRS! They cheerfully wave back, and yell, "Thank you!"
Most days on the way home on the '7', the conductor will loudly announce at Queensboro Plaza that we're an express, Woodside next, at least three times. This is immediately followed by several people asking, "Is this an express?"
Yeah I agree, that can be soooooo irritating. I've seen those people. Riding a subway isn't as complicated if they open their ears.
Well, it's like my father says: "What's the sense of being stupid if you can't show it?".
He was a wise man !!!!
Once again a white man who can't get used to the diverity of the city.
The diversity is GREAT; the problem is that
a) many of the riders don't understand English
b) many of the TA employees don't speak all of the various languages (although quite a few do speak Spanish).
wayne
>>>>Once again a white man who can't get used to the diverity of the city. <<<
Yes, the evil white man is to blame. I wouldn't want to move to the suburbs like some of my friends did. Too boring. But I would like some of our immigrants to at least TRY to adopt the language of the country they have moved to.
When you walk down Union Street in Flushing, you are confronted with signs that are completely in Korean. Maybe there's a liitle English way down in the corner, in small type. This practice is spreading eastward to my part of Flushing.
It may not be intentional, but the message is: "non-Koreans not welcome here".
I'd prefer the signs in English, with perhaps a sign in the Korean equivalent of Aqui se habla español.
www.forgotten-ny.com
We get the same stuff here in Crab City. I have a friend who (courtesy of the US Air Force) could read and speak fluent Korean. He was great for translating those Korean only signs for the English only speaker acompanying him. Unfortunately, he is not in good sape these days (in a VA Funny Farm) and I miss his stories and comradship.
There are whole areas here that nary a sign is in English, or even Spanish. Hopefully they can at least read English, as the MTA programs the signs in English only.
Some of those areas are also rather high in shopkeeper shootings.
Where is "Crab City"?
It's a nickname for Baltimore. The domestic soft-shell crab-fishing industry is centered on Maryland and the Chesapeake Bay, and Baltimore is the largest city in the region.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maryland!! MMMMM.....Crab Cakes.....
-Hank :)
(Specifically, Baltimore nearest Chesapeake Bay)
two and more ...places and more in southern california koreatown and parts of alhambra rosemead san gabriel rosemead..
.........most of these areas asian & korean only exckuding all others.............. i know what I am talking about and if you
dont believe me visit out here and see this for yourself ...!!!
Thats all right the Koreans don t even like them selves
my goldstar flying erase
with vidieo and audio dubbing
was ruined by an expert korean tv vidieo repair specialist !!
I had to take this vcr over to glendale california ,,outside pasadena california..
i guess i have to give up on this fine piece of equipment as
everything was destroyed as the only function that needed to be repaired was the eject part ..2 pieces..
he ruined my hi-fi heads so only one speed playback the SP mode only !!!
Ever since then mr korean vcr man never gets any of my busness ever again !!
Please not I do not believe all Korerans and negative or down on themselves at all !!
I met some progressive types usually the younger generation but not restricted just to them !!
Many Koreans dont care for black men like me but not all !! I have met some that I feel were very much like some latinos I know that treat me ""like a brother""....
all I do say is that the communities they have here seems to be exclusive and private ...for themselves only & you get a ""bad vibe" that others are not welcome ...
I don't think places like Flushing fit the stereotype though. In Flushing you have alot of asian business (Chinese and Korean)and you see plenty of latinos, blacks, indians, whites all over Flushing.
Perhaps suburban Koreans may have this attitude, but the ones I see in NYC are very open minded, much different than you have described here.
.......yea southern california is spread out and isolation and excluseveness may tend to exceed ....
We've gone off the track, so to speak, with this topic before, so I'll not prolong the subject too much, but I must say that I agree with you. I read quite a number of languages and can speak a couple of them passably well, but I do not feel that I should have to speak a language other than English in order to communicate anywhere in this country. I don't have a problem with immigrants who choose to speak their native language at home, and to teach their children that language as well - it's an important part of their heritage. But the public language of this country is something known loosely as English, and when in public everyone should be expected to use it. No more government documents in any language other than English; for just one example, if you can't read the driver's manual in English, then don't drive until you can. If you'd rather not learn English, then go back wherever it is you came from. I didn't live in Spain without learning the language first; by the time I left I had learned the regional language (Catalan) as well. Certainly I was not as fluent as a native speaker in either tongue, but I spoke both languages well enough to converse freely with people who knew no English.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with almost everything you said. A country in which its citizens cannot communicate with each other is in danger of disintegration. I would point out, however, that some people move on such short notice that they don't have time to let the dough rise, much less learn a new language beforehand. We shouldn't be too critical of those who have only been here a few months and are trying to learn the new language. As for those who are young enough to learn the basics of a new language, have been here for over five years, and still can't understand second grade level English, I think they need more encouragement.
You're absolutely correct, and I should have qualified my statements to include the essence of what you said. It is only with those who don't choose to make the effort - and there are many of them, unfortunately - that I have a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My aunt who lives in LA for the last 30 years (a former rider of the # 4 in the Bronx) said the same thing happened in LA with the rise in immigrants. The signage got so bad that the City Council had to pass a law mandating the name and address had to be in English, with anything additional optional. It had to be done so that FIRE and POLICE would know where to respond in case of an emergency..
Kevin, remember you no longer live in eastern Flushing but rather eastern Flu-Shing.
[We shouldn't be too critical of those who have only been here a few months and are trying to learn the new language]
Couple of months should be enough to learn basic language. At least at the level to understand the train announcements.
Arti
I've been here 48 years and still can't understand some of the announcements.
[I've been here 48 years and still can't understand some of the announcements. ]
That's the quality of PA system issue. It's usually not malfunctioning in all the cars.
Arti
Jeez, on the old R-16s, I always though the PA announcements were in a foreign language.
R-16 PA had amplifiers that utilized vacuum tubes. They did not stand up to the constant vibratiion and environment like the current stuff does.
Speaking of which, are there any blueprints available used in the conversion to COMCO for the overhaul cars and if so, what differnces are there aside from the different H wire voltages? I suspect in the long term, cars like 6398 will need to be converted when the repair shops and tube supplies dwindle down. They do sound nice with the COMCO speakers and they have MUZAK capabilities. The tubes burn out on extended play music.
Since R-16s were never overhauled, there are no blueprints for a comco conversion. I do have a schematic for Comco as installed on R-46s etc.
I don't think you're going to see vacuum tubes become obsolete, as tube-powered amplifiers are still being manufactured. We have an electronic supply store in Denver, Fistell's, which has been around for years in the same location. They still carry tubes, and until a few years ago had car radio vibrators. Some fellow who is into American Flyer bought out their entire stock. A. C. Gilbert used a car radio vibrator as a frequency generator for their diesel horn circuit.
I guess that would make sense, since the transitor itself was only three years old at the time the R-16s went into service. Still, when I think of fuzzy, garbled and inaudible PA announcements, I will always think of the R-16 (specifically on the EE in the 1970s, but it could be anywhere on the system)
I agree with you 100%. Because the official language in this country is English, you should see English everywhere. Those signs only in a foreign language only seems to welcome those who understands it, ... not necessarily to a particular group? I once saw a WHITE MAN reading a JAPANESE NOVEL on a Manhattan N train. Pretty impressive!
Something that is bothering me is that people can take the Driver's License exams in a foreign language. Also, the exams for Naturalization are in very basic English and it's possible people can pass it and forget about whatever English they know.
Since this board is on transit-related topics, I'll stop here also. Lets hope the signs in the subways remain in English.
The INS English test may seem basic to you, but I've seen people fail it. I've also seen it administered to immigrants from the UK and other English speaking countries. Your tax dollars at work! (They spoke better English than the INS officer.)
One of the problems is that English was never made the official language of this country. In fact, there is none (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Up until the last qyarter of the 20th century, this seemed irrelevant. However, immigrant groups have been empowered by laws that, in some ways, give them more rights than the citizens of this country. For today's exercise, lets all practice bending over backwards. Ready - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -- one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two -one - two - one - two - one - two - one - two
You're right, and you're wrong.
Point 1: I think you're right. As far as I know, the Federal government has never adopted an "official" language. Maybe one or more of the states or localities has done so, but I wouldn't know. Of course, most organs of government operate predominantly or exclusively in English. For example, most Information Officers in the NY District office of INS speak only English. If an alien doesn't speak English and wants to find out anything, he'ld better bring along someone who does.
Point 2: I think you're wrong. Off hand, I can't think of a single right that aliens have in the United States that is not also enjoyed by citizens. Do you have something partuclar in mind?
Several laws have been passed in various states - Arizona is one, IIRC, not sure about the others - declaring English as the official language. These laws have been struck down as unconstitutional.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Right now down in South Texas near Laredo, there's a town where the city council and mayor have voted to conduct all business and post all legal notices and city ordinances in Spanish instead of English. It got a little play when it first happened a few months ago, and could become a factor in the presidential election, since it is Bush's home state, but right now, it seems like nobody wants to touch the problem because of the racial issues involved.
You're right, and you're wrong.
Point 1: I think you're right. As far as I know, the Federal government has never adopted an "official" language. Maybe one or more of the states or localities has done so, but I wouldn't know. Of course, most organs of government operate predominantly or exclusively in English. For example, most Information Officers in the NY District office of INS speak only English. If an alien doesn't speak English and wants to find out anything, he'ld better bring along someone who does.
Point 2: I think you're wrong. Off hand, I can't think of a single right that aliens have in the United States that is not also enjoyed by citizens. Do you have something particular in mind?
He may not, but I do. It's considered discrimination NOT to hire someone who can't speak english. It doesn't matter if he speaks Martian, and won't be able to understand his duties. If he's capable of doing the job, the the only reason you DON'T hire him is because he only speaks Martian, you're now likely to be sued for discriminating against immigrants.
-Hank
Right. I work in a very multi-cultural environment, where English is the native language of less than half of the professional employees. For many of them, including my boss and his boss, the accent or even their name is the only clue that English isn't their mother tongue, they have learned it so well. For others, it's obvious in other ways (grammar and spelling), but they certainly understand it well enough to do a professional job - better than a couple of members of the secretarial pool for whom English is their native language. And then there are a few - very few, fortunately - who can't communicate in English at all. I have one on my staff, a very energetic Korean fellow in his mid-'40s, well-educated at one of the universities in Seoul, who simply has not mastered enough of the English language to do his job without a translator. He performs system upgrades and general system administration, does it reasonably well, and is willing to come in at odd hours on a regular basis, but I have to have another Korean-speaking employee translate my directions when I want to give him an additional assignment or change his routine. He's a nice guy, but I'll be glad when his contract is up and I can politely decline to renew it. He tries, I'll grant him that, but in today's business environment trying just isn't enough. I can't afford to pay people who are anything less than 100% successful at what they do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[It's considered discrimination NOT to hire someone who can't speak english. It doesn't matter if he speaks Martian, and won't be able to
understand his duties. If he's capable of doing the job, the the only reason you DON'T hire him is because he only speaks Martian, you're now likely to be sued for discriminating against immigrants.]
I'm not so sure about that. Certain characteristics are considered "bona fide occupational qualifications" and do allow exceptions to usual nondiscrimination requirements. A classic example is a locker room attendant, where gender is a "BFOQ." I would say that the ability to communicate with other employees and understand instructions - in other words, the ability to speak and understand English - would be a BFOQ in most cases.
While I haven't read all of the civil rights laws, I thought I knew what grounds for decision making Congress had outlawed. I must say that it comes as a surprise to hear that alienage is one of them.
Does that include the various dilects of english? Some conductors I've listened to have a heavey "patwa" or creole accent . I found myself exchanging bewildered looks with other travelers. I guess they pass the english requirements but choose not to make the effort through the work day.
avid
Regardles of what the government states there is no problem with discriminating The only discrimination that is forbidden is against political connected persons not to be confused with races. The EEOC is a rubber stamping organisation
I think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean right (as in Bill of Rights) but what I was referring to is that immigrant groups have been empowered, in some circumstances, beyond that of sitizens.
I think I used the wrong word. I didn't mean right (as in Bill of Rights) but what I was referring to is that immigrant groups have been empowered, in some circumstances, beyond that of citizens.
FEI, when I got my driver's license in 1994, the written test was availible in _23_ languages. Among them:
English, Hebrew, Spanish, Italian, French, Russian, Greek, Yiddish, Cantonese, and Korean.
For a CDL license, there is actually a part of the law creating (49CFR?) it that says drivers of certain vehicles (Haz-Mat and buses come to immediate mind) MUST speak and read english. This caused a big flap with the hispanic representation when an immigrant truck driver was cited for NOT having that ability. Amid arguments about it, it was pointed out WHY it was required, butr still the politicians pushed for its repeal. I'm not sure what happened with it.
What really bugs me about the whole thing is when they put someone on TV, and they need a translator to say for them that they've been in the USA for 16 years, and "Can't believe this can happen!"
-Hank
Not having driven in NYC (being a sane man), I don't know this as fact, but it's my understanding that the parking regulations can be positively Byzantine -- based on side of street, day of the week, time of day, etc. -- and that parking signs are therefore wordy and potentially very confusing.
That said, how do people who cannot read English but who get a license to drive in New York deal with these encyclopedic parking signs? The concepts are too abstract to be conveyed with universal symbols, and I doubt a sign that's large in English alone would be translated into even one other language, not to mention several.
Or do they just park illegally and get lots of tickets?
You don't actually need much English to read a No Parking sign. Remember, the times are the most complicated part; and they aren't -- strictly speaking -- in English, anyway. A lot of people who don't speak English use the same Arabic numerals we do. Moreover, "a.m." and "p.m." are Latin, not English.
And a big red 'NO' is pretty obvious.
-Hank
Hank,
You are correct. I just renewed my Commercial Drivers License (CDL)
which has HAZMAT and Passenger Bus endorsements, and the test is only
available in English.
[Back on topic] When we did the Willy-B FieldTrip last year, it
was interesting to see the passenger information signs in so
many languages in Williamsburgh, including Yiddish!
I may be correct, and the test may be in english in Massachucetts (were I assume you're licensed), but in NY, you can get it in multiple languages. The test is NOT preprinted. You go up there, choose your language, they print you a test, and you're off.
CDL test is a booklet, which is availible in at least English, Spanish, Arabic, Hebrew, and Greek at the SI DMV.
-Hank
you ought to see how many different languages the department of motor vehicles tests are given in in california !!
more than i could count and or mispell .... ( joke) ....and none of these in american...
I remember when I was very yound going to my great granmother's apt in a neighborhood in which all of the "For Rent" signs on the bldgs were in Yiddish. I dare say that today you will find a lot of street-visible signage exclusively in Spanish in some parts of the City. The Koreans did not invent this obnoxious practice.
Quite true - but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My neighborhood Grand Union became a Korean supermarket several years ago, but they still carry enough domestic stuff that I'll go in there for milk or bread. The staff knows just enough English to get along, or least to announce the amount of money you owe. If I point out a discrepancy in price or an expiration date that has passed, I get blank looks.
What I love is when announcements come over the P.A. in Korean. For all I know, they could be saying, "For anyone who can understand this, everything is half price."
I remember when I was very young going to my great granmother's apt in a neighborhood in which all of the "For Rent" signs on the bldgs were in Yiddish. I dare say that today you will find a lot of street-visible signage exclusively in Spanish in some parts of the City. The Koreans did not invent this obnoxious practice.
[When you walk down Union Street in Flushing, you are confronted with signs that are completely in Korean. Maybe there's a liitle English way down in the corner, in small type. This practice is spreading eastward to my part of Flushing.
It may not be intentional, but the message is: "non-Koreans not welcome here".]
What these business owners probably don't realize is that they're holding back their chances of growth. Appealing solely to a single ethnic community is inherently self-limiting, especially as members of the community become more Americanized and move off to the suburbs. In running a Korean-only (or any other language-only) business, the owners are more or less restricting their clientele to first-generation immigrants, who by and large aren't particularly affluent.
When someone asks me directions in Spanish, I'm able to say, "No Habla Espanol". A common occurrence on the '7' and the greater Flushing area is for someone who is obviously Asian asking me a question in THEIR language. I'll shrug, as if to say, "I don't speak Chinese, or Korean, or whatever it is you're speaking." They repeat their question in their language, LOUDLY.
Well, that's what you get in New York. I am able to speak a little bit of español when the need requires it, but I mostly speak inglés. I once heard a conductor on the 7 line, after saying that the train would return to Main Street from Queensboro Plaza in English, say the same message in Spanish. I was standing there, waiting for him to say it in another language, but all I heard was English and Spanish.
BTW, the correct way to say "I don't speak Spanish" in Spanish is "(Yo) no hablo español." I put the "Yo" in parentheses because it's optional. The verb, conjugated from the infinitive "hablar" to the first person singular "hablo". "Habla" is third person singular, which means "(He/She/It) doesn't speak Spanish."
BTW, the correct way to say "I don't speak Spanish" in Spanish is "(Yo) no hablo español." I put the "Yo" in parentheses because it's optional. The verb, conjugated from the infinitive "hablar" to the first person singular "hablo". "Habla" is third person singular, which means "(He/She/It) doesn't speak Spanish." I don't think people like to refer to themselves as it.
Hey, it sure as heck conveys the notion that you don't speak the language :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David, I love the diversity of NYC. It's one of the things that keep it vibrant. What's different is that in the past, the immigrant group of the time (and most of us were at one time) did not have signs, public forms and even Driver's manuals in our native languages. We were forced to learn the majority language. This did not deminish our own cultures but it did permit us to function successfully and compete. The present trend is for the tail to wag the dog. Learning English is no longer mandatory to survive. However survival is not flourishing. Personally, I occassionally hit the Flushing area for lunch or whatever. However, if the merchant or restauranteur does not have some sinage in english, I assume he's not interested in doing business with me and I simply move on. But perhaps you can at least ponder a question that I can't explain. Thousands come here from where-ever each day. They are fleeing their native land which we must assume was a less desirable place to be. Yet they come here and they:
First: Do not try to assimillate.
Secont: Try to make 'here' just like there.
,WHY?
In some eyes this is not a place of refuge, but a place of wealth to be mined and exploited then left. That may be the original plan for some, but their next generation may not share the veiws of the parants.
The parants then blame this, our home , for corrupting their children.
It would make for an intresting study. To see the stresses of culture clases within an emigrey family.
avid
Like a lot of other things, corruption is in the eye of the beholder. What Train Dude describes is just a particular instance of a more general phenomenon, people wanting two, mutually exclusive things and trying to have it both ways. You can't really blame them for trying. Although they found the old country intolerable for one reason or another, they miss it. It's sort of like the way some people view the relations between the sexes: can't live with them, can't live without them.
I refuse to rant off-subject here. If you would like to insult me use the email address that I so thoughtfully included.
david b . when you point this out all of the litle immature white male children come running out calling you
a bigot and cant see themselves in the mirror ... its easy to hide behind a computer screen like a coward !!
David, you know, I read Alex's post, the one you are responding to. Perhaps I'm missing something but from that post, how did you determine that Alex is white or even a man? I am not trying to be funny but Alex could be male or female and for the life of me I don't see anything there that would indicate his/her nationality, race or anything else.
It's pretty obvious you are making assumptions and painting with a very broad brush. IF Alex's statement was racist (and I am not ready to concede that it was) you make the assumption that Alex is White and from there label all or most white males as racists.
I once heard from a person of color that only whites could be considered racists because whites are the majority. On the face of it, that's crap on both points. Whites are no longer a majority in the NY vacinity. Secondly, we've seen too many instances here and in the media where non-whites have lead the tirades of racist rhetoric. Clearly, one who preaches & perpetuates such stereotypical generalities (such as the one you made) is by definition a racist. Yes David, the deamon you see is your own reflection. I suggest you and SalaamAllah start your own board. Perhaps you can call it "Anti-white male talk" and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Um, it's May, and the Mets are still above .500 ...
How did that happen?
Next, you'll be telling me the Red Sox are in first place.
I've seen it happen before at this point in the season. BTW, they dropped two of three to the fish this weekend. 'Nuff said.
P. S. I hear security at Shea is going to be really tight when the Braves come to town at the end of June.
Of course it is ... because you know how unruly Mets fans can get when their team loses :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The added security is because of you-know-who.
Speaking of (off his) Rocker, did you hear he balked in the winning run the other night when the ball fell out of his glove? Unbelievable. Of course, the fans were really letting him have it.
P. S. The Mets gave up their very first run in history on a similar play. Roger Craig dropped the ball while in his pitching motion, and the Cards' Bill White was waved in from third base.
It's still May. As I predicted (not really believing it) 10 days ago, the Red Sox are now in first place. (Miracle of miracles! We'll see how long that lasts.) Are the Mets still above .500?
The Mets are right at .500 as of today. We'll see how they do now that Henderson has been released. Al Leiter is pitching today against the Rockies.
05/05/2000
Kevin,
I can tell that this message bogus. You Mentioned Metropolitan TRANSIT Authority, of Boston and Los Angeles fame.
What is the reason for the service stoppage anyway?
Bill Newkirk
Trackwork
the year is 2003... although people continue to
debate whether global warming is something to worry
about, the average daily temperature in new york
city is 113... our intrepid avid reader continues
to commute every day from his villa in the rockaways to his wall street job fleecing the sheep...
one day, late in the afternoon, he is riding his
trusty A train back to the rockaways... the air
conditioning in the r-44 brings the temperature
down to a comfortable 95 degrees... the train is
travelling under fulton street in brooklyn, when a
massive power failure strikes the northeast... avid
and his fellow passengers are trapped and the temperature in the car starts to rise... people are sweating and dehydrating and beginning to faint...
then avid has a vision of 3 years ago, when every afternoon rush hour train came into the station with a nice cooling pool of water on each seat... if only he had some of that water to splash across his feverish brow ....
Can the side destination signs on the R62 and 68 light up like the R21 and 22 back in the day???????
BM34x
No, sadly, they cannot.
Peace,
ANDEE
There was a post some time ago which said the sign boxes are equipped for illumination; i. e., they have fluorescent bulb sockets, but this feature isn't being used. It's just as well, IMHO. It's nice to have, but is a high maintenance item.
Last night comming home to Queens on an F leaving Lex we swithced to the Manhatten bound track and switched back before 23 Ely is there track work going on in the tunnel?
There was probably work going on in the tube on track D4. This particular occurrance is common.
I think they're replacing the 3rd rail insulators on D4 track.
some times when the insulators are replace, its in advance of welded rail, watch and see if thts develops.
avid
Why? (are insulators replaced in advance of welded rail?)
How does the normal speed of the Hudson-Bergen light rail compare to that of the NYC subway? What about accelaration? What about top-speed?
I read a FAQ about the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail at the following site. This should answer your questions.
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/hblrfaq.htm
"The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail cars are powered by 750 volts of electricity conducted through an overhead catenary system. The speed of the light rail car depends entirely on which segment of the line the car is traveling on. In sections where the light rail car is operating along city streets, the car must adhere to local speed limits and traffic signals. Along some off-street segments of the line along an exclusive right-of-way, light rail cars can travel up to 55 MPH. The stopping distance for light rail cars depends largely upon passenger loads and traveling speeds. Generally speaking, a light rail car traveling 20 MPH would come to a stop within approximately 160 feet from the initial braking point."
This discussion triggers a memory of a meeting between Essex Street residents and the Jersey City Police. Denizens of the two blocks claim that because their structures are historic, State Historic Preservation Office standards mandate a maximum speed of 8 MPH. When a police official cited the above 25 MPH figure, one brownstone-dweller challenged with: "Well, what are you going to do if they go over 25? Tell them to 'pull it over?' "
05/05/2000
[. Along some off-street segments of the line along an exclusive right-of-way, light rail cars can travel up to 55 MPH. ]
I don't think so. On the first day of inaugural service (April 15th) I peered through the operator window and noticed the speedometer (not digital) needle was exceeding 60 MPH so I guess 65MPH was the speed south of Liberty State Park to Bayonne.
Bill Newkirk
Once out of the street, the trains are cab-signal controlled; max allowed speed is 55. Past 55, an alarm goes off, and the brakes automatically apply. trains are limited to 15 until leaving Jersey Ave, 35 from Jersey Ave to Liberty State Park (15 around the curves past the turnpike), and 55 from Liberty State Park to Bayonne. I didn't watch the cab signals out the West Side Ave branch.
-Hank
They really seem to creep around those curves. I wish they could go a little faster on the curves and wire the traffic signals so that they would change automatically as the trains approached instead of having them change when the operator presses a button when the train is already at the crossing.
They ARE set up this way, but it's not yet fully functional. They no longer flag all the crossings, since the signals are working properly, just not in favor of the trains at all times as they should be by the end of this month. They still flag the crossing at the Liberty State Park station due to the 'S' curve under the railroad bridge. That's not going away anytime soon, and when it does, it will reappear for special events at the park.
Some real positive news is that there has yet to be an idiot collision.
-Hank
Thanks for the info. Glad to hear it. That ought to take a few minutes off the running time.
05/06/2000
Re: Liberty State Park crossing.
You just wait, eventually they will install crossing gates at that crossing since people like to run red lights. That's a real blind curve there and installing crossing gates will be the only way to prevent someone from broadsiding an LRV.
Bill Newkirk
05/06/2000
Hank,
Well, that's what I saw on the speedometer. Perhaps a show for the riders just for opening day?
Bill Newkirk
Perhaps. Any train I've been on, if the speed is exceeded, an alarm goes off (bee-dee-bee-dee) and the train starts to brake. I've seen it creep past 55, but it was always accompanied by the alarm. It's entirely possible that the speedo was defective. It's also possible that the speed control was disabled in the area (there's a button on the control panel for the speed control) and you're right (my money's on that), and it could be something that tricked your eye because you're looking at it at an angle, and not straight-on.
-Hank
The motorman running the Liberty Liner (nee Electroliner) on the P&W some years ago told me that they liked to "fix" the speedometer to read faster than actual speed when a railfan organization chartered the liner; they enjoyed the excitment displayed by the fans.
I used to watch the ammeter; it was redlined at 600 amps, but the train wouldn't move from Bryn Mawr inbound with less than 650. As soon as it got down to 600, the motorman would notch it up to 650-680 briefly.
Here we go again with my adventures from the apartment window. A rare appearance was made by a 10 car train of R-21s and R-22s, heading northbound to 239th St Yard for washing. The 10 Cars are normally assigned in groups of 2 to the Revenue Collectors. One pair of cars, Revenue Collector Cars OR and IR715 wondered away from home in Corona Yard and came onto the mainline. It's not too often I see a blazing train of yellow workhorses, but this is one of interest, let alone the fact it's a 10 car train of R-21s and R-22s. A rare one at best!
-Stef
I knew that the train was going for a wash because I heard a radio transmission from the T/O operating the consist. That's what I heard.
-Stef
This week , Tuesday and Wednensday saw a ROW layup on the Southbound Express track (F-3) I think, it had two sections really:
1) A2 unit monster that appeared to be a track tamper #16 550
Deisel #71, work car #330, deisel #78, about 10 flatcars , 4
empty and six loaded , 4 high of pre-fab track & ties,
mixed in were #339 workcar deisel #891, workcar #331 (R15)
deisel #898 and work car #358
They are involved in track replacement were the Rockaway branch leaves the raised embankment and climbs on the tight curve on the 'EL" to join the liberty ave "EL". This explains the "NO SERVICE" during the day notices for the Rockaway branch.
Some good Photo ops for the gainfully unemployed.
avid
Interesting stuff, avid. But who's gainfully unemployed if I may ask?
-Stef
BINGO! BINGO!
This evening the elusive cars were found laid up just north of the Howard Beach Station. Both express tracks were in use. There was about a half mile of MOW rolling stock. Heres a list of what I could identify.
Deisels DL-70,D-76, D-72, D-78, R/15 335 equiped with a knuckle coupler and 4 seperate cables connecting it to a deisel at each end. R/12-14 #331. 5 gondolas r/21-22 286 and 293 5 more gondoles. I could make out about 2, mabey 3 flat cars. MOW R21 347 and r/12-14 343. One MOW I could only see r38_ the last digit was out of veiw.
Further along were deisels 891 and 898 R/12-14 RO329 and deisel 56.
Now the best of all the missing r/21s , they were in two 8-car consists numbered CCR01 thru CCRO8 and DCR01 thru DCR08. These sets had no stormdoors and a small portion of the front lower wall on each side of the doorway were cut away.
These badboys were carring a load of welded rail, it could be veiwed as it ran thru from one car to the next. It looked to be stacked aboud four or five rails high and maybe five or six wide. I guessing here.It would behoove anyone close by with vidio or photo equipement to get there. 8 cars x 50ft = 400ft welded rail. Rare event in the making.
avid
Glad to hear my favorite Work Motor (R15 RD335) was out there having some fun in the sun. That's quite an array of equipment out there. Sounds like a big project underway. Was all this for the track repair at the Liberty avenue junction?
Wayne
I cant't imagin all of this for a tight curve. The curve is going in in short sections, about 39ft or less. The ties are pre banked and stored on the abandoned ROW above Liberty Ave. Other Equipement there too. Gangboxes, hardware, yellow catwalks etc.
The big collection leeds me to beleive the section south of Howard Beach, maybe the North bound track is get the welds. The So. bound side was welded about 5 years back. This branch has been receiving a lot of MOW for the last few years. I must confess I haven't been beyond Broad channel To access the trackwork down that-a-way. Just the "test tracks added to the Broad Channel- Howard Beach race way.
You're right. It sounds like heavy work is going down there. The Welded Rail Train is interesting. What were once passenger cars are now nothing more than carriers of continuous welded rail. It's not the most attractive piece of equipment, but it does serve a purpose.
-Stef
Hey Stef: Were are the pics? did you shoot any?
Just when I needed the camera, I didn't have one handy. Gosh darn it! I've been meaning to send the webmaster some photos someday when I get around to it....
-Stef
That is no way to run your TOWER there Stef!!!
Scanner, Spy Glass, Camera, PC--> Subtalk in that order.
Sorry! What can I do to make up for not entertaining the railfans?
-Stef
I made an error in reference to two of the Revenue Collectors. I referred to the two Revenue Collector Cars numbered 715, as OR715 and IR715, and is really 0R715 and 1R715. Sorry! I don't know how I could miss that. I thought at the front of the number on the plate was a complete letter designation.
-Stef
Any idea of the car(s) serial numbers?
What the actual car numbers are or their work service designations? For actual numbers head over to the Subway Roster Page, where you'll find info on the Rider and Revenue Collector Cars. The cars on this particular train today are all assigned to the IRT with the exception of 0R715 and 1R715. These are assigned to Corona.
Wait! Something strange is going on here. One of the collector cars assigned to Flushing has apparently been replaced. What gives? The car I recall seeing had a black roof, but the cars I saw had yellow roofs. Forget about paint jobs. These don't look like they've had it for a while.
You know, while on the subject, someone scribbled "GO METS" on the side of one of the Corona collectors, as was an insult hurled at Whitey Ford. I won't even mention the insult.
-Stef
Somewhere around 2:00pm, this same train was still roaming the system, because I saw it at Utica Ave (upper) on the Express track heading toward New Lots. Actually, I was downstairs and saw it on one of the monitors for the upper level. It surprised me, because you usually don't see 10 Collector cars running around in the middle of the afternoon.
It looks like several large consist of MOW stock are out cruising.
avid
They were getting washed up at 239th St, but how often does that happen? And why is a B Division Collector Roaming the IRT? Collectors 714, 716, 717, 718 are regulars, but Collector 715 is assigned to Corona. If all they wanted was a car wash, I figure that pair would have gotten washed at Corona. Some things I'll never understand.....
Hey Alex, what was going on with the 4 at Kingsbridge Rd? 11:11 Atlantic dropped dead over the switch heading north. Cars had a loss of power requiring the operator to run his train from the 6th Car in the R-62 Consist. Not an easy task operating from other than head end, I imagine.
-Stef
Nope, just ask they guys who were at Roosevelt on May 20, 1970.
The 6TH car? GOOD GRIEF! I would guess that being out of doors helped matters some in that case.
wayne
These things happen from time to time unfortunately. The 11:11 out of Atlantic Av was stranded on the road. Service was suspended down to Burnside Av. Even the train dispatcher from Woodlawn got involved, assisting in getting that train off the mainline. Personnel were aboard the train with the conductor flagging his motorman to Mosholu Pkwy, and then turned back south and crossed over to the yard approach before turning again and headed into the barn.
If you plan things carefully, nothing should go wrong, even if you're operating from other than the head end.
-Stef
Curious - was that a Redbird or a Kawasaki?
Wayne
NEVER MIND! I guess I didn't read the earlier post fully.
wayne
Presently, the LIRR has three branches in Brooklyn, two of which get little freight service (the Bay Ridge and Bushwick branches.)
But, the LIRR has also had other operations in Brooklyn. Manhattan Beach was one such branch, and I recall reading something about the LIRR operating along the prsent-day J tracks as far as Marcy Avenue at one point. There's also what is sometimes called the "Evergreen Branch" in Ridgewood; the ROW can still be made out in places for it.
Can someone provide details on those, as well as other LIRR Brooklyn expansions?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, back in steam-era days, the LIRR had ownership -- briefly -- over the Culver line (via the connection at Parkville junction). And of course the LIRR Atantlic Avenue Branch and the Brighton Beach had some sharing of equipment/trackage rights around the turn of the century as well.
FYI, a peculiarity of the Canarsie line is that a portion of it was co-owned by both BRT and the LIRR in the days of the Brooklyn Grade Elimination Project. The co-ownership had something to do with the Canarsie's proposed elevated ROW hanging over onto property of the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch (as it does today between Atlantic & Sutter Aves.). This agreement was only in effect for the area of the shared embankment -- East New York Ave. to the north and Linden Boulevard to the south.
I believe Bob Anderson's website, www.lirrhistory.com can help you out in some of these areas.
Doug aka BMTman
I haven't been there in a few years, but I believe the ROW of the connection between the Bay Ridge branch and the South Brooklyn Railway is still there, but paved over. Also at the point where the switch is on McDonald Ave., you could still see part of the switch.
Kevin, check out this page and this page from my LIRR History website.
If I remember correctly, you were the one who first told me about that RR Crossing sign for the Evergreen branch on Hancock St.
By the way, today is the second anniversary of the establishment of the LIRR History website . (I had to get that plug in! :-)
Kevin: From Pg 16 of "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George (I hope my typing is OK-its alot to copy!! The abbreviations are mine)
Chestnut Street Agreement
To implement the joint service, two track connections were made between the LIRR and the Bklyn Elevated. The more important one was between the LIRR Atlantic Branch and the Bklyn Elevated Bway Line in the E.NY area near the Queens Co line. For a distance in this location, the 2 lines are a block apart. At a point east of Chestnut Street, a steel structure was built from the elevated railway's right of way to the LIRR Atlantic Branch tracks in a flying junction arrangement, due to the Atlantic Branch tracks being on the ground. The Chestnut Street Agreement made on 4/13/1898 detailed the arrangement and joint operation.
In 1898 the Bklyn Elevated Bway Line terminated westward at the Bway Ferry, in the Williamsburg Section of Bkyn. Bklyn elevated trains, using a mix of their own and LIRR equip., operated between this terminal and the LIRR's Rockaway Park eastern terminus. Service using steam powered trains started 7/17/1898. To more easily handle the elevated railroad rapid transit trains, a turning loop was built at the Rock Pk station in 1899. The Bklyn Union Elevated RR became part of the Bklyn Rapid Transit (BRT) in May 1899.
The LIRR electrified service to the Rockaway Peninsula started 7/26/05. Although the BRT Bway Line was electrified in 1901, they continued to use steam powered trains to the Rockaways until 1906, when the Chestnut Street Connection was electrified.
At that time the BRT started using electric power trains between the Bway Ferry and Rockaway Park. Although good service was provided, patronage was not heavy from Manhattan due to the need for the ferry. To mproe the situation the BRT extended its Bway Line across the recently completed Willamsburg Bridge to Delancy Street in Lower Manhattan. At the same time they strenghened the Bway elevated structure to permit use of heavier cars. This would also allow the LIRR to run their electric powered trains over the elevated structure. The LIRR service between Delancey St and the Rockaways started 5/30/08. It was extended further downtown to Chambers Street on 8/4/13. Both the LIRR and BRT electric-powered trains ran from these terminals to Rockaway Park. This was the only time in the history of the LIRR that it had a second rail terminus in Manhattan that could be reached without changing to a ferry or subway (the principal one of course, was and is, Pennsylvania Station).
Even wih the extensions, the joint-service usage by the public declined after the opening of service to Penn Station. By 1917, the U.S. was formally involved in WWI and ridership in the joint service was at an all time low. The 2 partners in the agreement chose this as a good time to terminate the service; it ended on Sept 3, 1917. The Chestnut St connection flying junction at the LIRR's Atlantic Branch was removd, but the one-block elevated strcture remained unti 1943, during WWII when it was removed as part of a scrap drive. The loop at the Rockaway Park Station had been razed in the early 1920's
End of quote.
That's pretty definitive.
I will be in NYC for 1 day on Wednesday. How much are the 1 Day Metro Cards?
Easily found by looking at the official MTA site, but the answer is $4.
Four dollars, but they are NOT sold at Token Booth, so step to MVM machine or buy it at a news stand. It's good for the rest of the day that you start using it (actually until 3 AM the next morning, but NOT 24 hours).
Mr t__:^)
I used to work Fridays until midnight, then Saturdays until midnight. I bought a one-day pass and got three rides out of it, feeling very smug until I realized I'd saved 13 cents.
Fun pass is $4 at all Metro Card Vending Machines not at the token booths, also at some stores and hotels vending machines are the best bet.
Do most stations have vending machines. I will most likely use the Q33 to Jackson Hts or the Shuttle Bus to Howard Beach on the Rockaway Lines. I will not know what airport I will come in on until I get to St Louis and change planes.
Howard Beach does NOT, unless I missed seeing them when I was there in March. You also can't buy one at a newsstand at JFK.
Perhaps subway-buff (one of our resident station agents) or one of the MetroCard fans can provide more information (and correct me if I'm wrong).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Visit metrocard.cjb.net. The list hasn't been updated in a while. Also be sure to check out the metrocard.cjb.net chat there tonight at 8!
About the list, Subway-buff is going tp provied me with a new list of MVM, which in be on the site as soon as i get it.
Thanks for the free pulg
metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
05/06/2000
Worse comes to worse, maybe someone can mail you a Funpass, if time permits.'
Bill Newkirk
I m leaving Wednesday so it will be too late, I will check some news stands at JFK or LGA
No it won't
Visit http://metrocard.citysearch.com to buy it online.
BUT: There is a $15 minimum.
Not to be obtuse, but doesn't your plane ticket say where your plane is going? My ticket always says whether it is JFK, LGA, or EWR, it never just says "New York".
Just asking....
My ticket says JFK, but I will have a 5 hour layover in St Louis, Then 1 11PM Overseas flight to Tel Aviv. I would rather spend the time in NYC rather then St Louis(I was there last month) so I will try to go standby on a 7.20AM flight to LaGuardia, and have more time in NYC to do some things.
The switch on the southbound Q or B , just south of 57th, and north of 47th/ Rockefeller , to the "F" tracks, the local tracks is being replaced. Does anyone know if it will be longer, to reduce side motion and allow for fast movement? Its difficuld to see in the darkened tunnel . Rght now the old switch has been removed. The ties are raised up on shims. Do the shims remain when the concret is poured? It seemed they left the shims when similar work was done on the diamond southboundat Jay st . Do the shims rot or what?
avid
For you railfans out there that have been paying attention, you'll notice that many friendly rivalries have sprang up over the past few months ( or is it years) over which train is better than which. Stuff like this sets the tone for some friendly ribbing between colleagues and is a far cry from some of the poison that has engulfed this site in recent weeks. Perhaps we can all police ourselves to see that bad feeling don;t erupt on this site again. Kill files help but only to a point. It is up to all of us to keep things civil and it can be done. After all how easy do really think it is to have to listen to #1Brighton Beach Bob's droning on and on about his half baked Brighton Beach train without wanting to pull out what remains of my hair? But I manage. This is the most enjoyable part of my use of my computer and I want to keep it that way.
Hey Fred - do they call it the See Beach (I know, they spelled it Sea Beach, but that's because someone in the BMT's office hadn't been off the boat long enough and couldn't tell the difference) because you can see the vastly superior Brighton Beach from there???? :-)
Sorry Fred, I just couldn't resist pulling your chain! I like 'em all, no real favorites myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree with Slow Beach Fred. I really enjoy these barbs about the Brighton and Sea Beach, and his Brooklyn(Now LA Bums) It makes my day, and most of the guys on this web site know it is all in fun, even though Fred is real old, tries to live 50 years ago, and lives in California and is a Republican. Maybe it is all the Smog he breaths in in the San Gabriel Valley, which is the most air polluted part of So Calif. I can hear him wheezing right now, on his respirator
.......do you want the dodgers back ??... you can have them !!.....they cant even beat the braves at dodger stadium !!
They did once. And then we can move them to Hawaii because that's where Bob lives and he's a Yankee fan. We can then really torment him.
.........hawaii...? .....not a bad idea at all......
Hey I lived from 1942-57 with them in Brooklyn and 1959-1993 Seasons with them in LA. Send them to Hawaii, who cares. I still will root for the Yankees
send the dodgers to hawaii and give chavez ravine back to whom it was stolen from ...!!!
Chavez Ravine was own by the City and County of Los Angeles, The people who were moved from there were squatters, and did not belong there.
..........wrong many were home owners low income not important like beverly hills or west los angeles
but owners and families who lived there going back when los angeles was owned by mexico !!
there was land near what is called hollywood park where the los angeles lakers built this stadium
named the forum which later became the great western forum and all of that once vacant land could
have ben used to build the 1962 dodger stadium without taking away peoples homes just becuse they
would not do this to the rich all white section of los angeles eminent domain !!!
this was a shame after the dodgers which should have stayed in brooklyn where they came from !
At least the california - anahiem angels built thier stadium in anahiem in a vacant strip of land on the edge
of town without taking one homeowners house away !!!
so while we were losing the pacific electric railway by a very racist mayor yorty he condemms a whole
family community of chavez ravine just because they were latino and black
I am sorry but facts and history prove you wrong on this the people of chavez ravine were hard working
class homeowners who did not deserve the LYNCHING they got in 1961 by the racist city of los angeles !!
( by the way there are many who still know the victims of chavez ravine and many of them still suffer today )
and all just to build a sports stadium that could have been built in ingelwood with no pain ??
I am sorry sir but you got this one wrong !!
Yorty was not the Mayor, Norris Poulson was (A Republican)
ok when did mayor yorty s term begin ?? ......and yorty was a democrat .........?
1961
i first moved to los angeles county in late 1959 attended hobart elementary on olympic boulevard back then
moved to the pasadena altadena area in 1961... I was in the 4 th grade then ....
however I did see the last of the pico PCC trolley cars ....!!!
Good boy Bob. For that we'll give you honorary California citizenship. Now you can say you are a part, if only honorary, of the greatest state in the Union----BAR NONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Why Honorary. I was a citizen of the Granola State from 1958-1994
But you defected. That makes you a traitor. However, I'm giving you a pardon and forgiving your transgressions. After all, you can't help yourself. Brighton people just haven't got it together. It's not your fault. You're forgiven.
You've got the wrong mayor Salaam. It was Norris Poulson who gave the Dodgers the land for Dodger Stadium, not Mayor Yorty. Yorty was not elected until June, 1961, three years after the sale of land to the Dodgers. And the area was Hispanic, not African-American. To my knowledge no AA's lived in Chavez Ravine.
i did agree with you it was not yorty man what a bummer yorty was .... sure was silent when our rail
systems were being destroyed !!
The rail system was destroyed before Yorty, except the 5 Street Car Lines, and that was a state decision not city, since the Old MTA was a State Agency, and County Agency with only 2 City Members of the 15 on it. I remember sitting in a classroom in the Bungalows by LACC across Monroe St and Watching the Trolleys turn in the Wye.
Ohh, Bob, you're giving your age away. 1963 was a very bad year for streetcar fans, both L.A. (March 31, 1963) and Baltimore (November 3, 1963) quit the same year.
The late Ira Swett produced a wonderful book entitled "Die Day in L.A.", a text and photo tour of the last 5 lines. I have it in my library, and the cover (all in black, of course) features the "crying streetcar, 3002, tears falling on her dash.
Ira cosidered it a death, considering that streetcars have a personality and buses don't, it most certainly was.
I remember that day well, not only did LA loose their narrow gage trolleys but their 2 trolley bus lines also. Thank God for the Orange Empire Trolley Museum 100 90 miles from LA for the 2 PCCs theyhave up and running. Both Types.
OERM's L.A. PCC collection includes 3 cars - 3001, a P2 class (I forget the number) and P-3 3165. Each car is in a one of the 3 paint schemes the cars carried. I believe all 3 are operational.
One was undergoing a major overhaul when I was there in March. We rode on the P-3.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
yea...... thats the place I am trying to find the Oramge Empire Trolley Museum where is it..???.............
( near pasadena california ) maybe not so close ......... and do they have a website ???....... etc....
I did see some PBS special on some station some 40 miles away as I couldnt pick up the reception
very well to make out a clear address as to where it was !!....... oh well ......
Also i will visit Traveltown were some red car equipment also rests in mothball form ..........
The Orange Empire Railway Museum is located in Perris, not too far off I-215. I was there in March with my son-in-law, my grandson, and his other grandfather. Great place! They have recently revamped the web site; don't know what happened, but the old site was much nicer, in my opinion. All the key information is still there but it's not as visitor-friendly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
......a very nice website and a million thank yous !! man i cant wait to go there i live only 40 -50- miles away !!
also have you ever visited the traveltown website ??
I may have but don't recall ... in any event it's been a while ... what's the URL?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what i did was go to the search engine YAHOO and enter the orange '''''''''railway museum
( i forgot the exact words etc..) i think it was orange railway museum and then i bookmarked it !!
I think it is http://www.oerm.org/
I have not been to the Orange Empire Museum in about 9 years. Miss it. Did you know that Maui has a steam railway? A touris line from Lahaina to Napali on the West Shore, Thru Sugar and pineapple fields, and beautiful views of the Coast, There was also a article a few weeks back in the local paper of a real railroad prior to WWII that took people and kids from the hills to school in the only town then and back.
Would that be the Lahaina, Kaanapali & Pacific? I've heard of it, but don't kow much else about it but the name.
Thats it with Singing Conductors. Kind of fun
For OERM that's correct - I posted the same information earlier in the thread. The reference (and URL request) was for Traveltown, which is elsewhere in California.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Supposedly, they were considering keeping the P line and shutting the other four lines down. Had that happened, a lot of nonrevenue trackage would have had to be kept open for yard moves.
Do you know if the book is still in print? if so where can I get one
I don't think it is, as it was an Interurban special published in late 1964.
You might try E-bay, somebody may put a copy up for bid.
Please e mail me the answer, I will be off line starting Wed for 2 1/2 weeks.
And just to think of that is wierd for a railfan like me because 1963 was the happiest year of my life.
Why because the Bums swept the Yanks the only and only time in how many series.
Good God Bob when are you going to get it straight? I am not a Dodger fan and haven't been one in over 40 years. I'm a Mets fan. 1963 was a great year for me because I got super grades in college, my Pony League team won the championship, I met a very nice girl, and I finally learned to swim. Besides, I had my all time favorite job as a recreation leader. The Dodgers had nothing to do with it. Are you now clear on it? BTW, 1963 was the last year you saw #4 on the Sea Beach consistently. Starting in 1964 you saw more N's than 4's on that line.
And Bob lives in Hawaii, where EVERYTHING comes by boat, and the last vestage of electric transit vanished when Howdy Doody was still on television, and Bob was riding Standards on his beloved Brighton.
"And Bob lives in Hawaii, where EVERYTHING comes by boat, and the last vestage of electric transit vanished when Howdy Doody was still on television,"
If not completed yet, there is a mass transit system which will operate on the main island (Oahu?). One of the trade publications had a map of the route. Supposedly, it was being built by MK or their successor. Anyone have any info on the status of the project?
Has the first shovelful of dirt even been turned yet?
Don't you mean Shovelful of lava?
Pumice is a better word.:-)
No Volcanic Lava, If you take a rock from one of the Volcanos off the island with you, especially from a Native Hawaiian Holy Place, BAD LUCK will get to you. This is true, people who took souveneers of those things, had loads of bad luck, and the Honolulu Post Offices gets 2-3 rocks back a day. BEWARE The Kauhunas are watching
Funny you should mention this, Bob!!
I was just hearing this same thing from another acquaintance just this past Friday -- tourists will take "souvenirs" and when they get home, all kinds of strange things/bad luck occur, and they send back whatever they removed from Hawaii!!
I wonder -- does it happen if you decide to take home one of the wicked wahines??
GOOD LUCK, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh
[GOOD LUCK, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh]
And there's somebody right here on Subtalk (no names, however) who'd make a good donor ... scratch that, the local girls probably are better off as is.
Sheese, Peter.
The possible donor is a transplant candidate himself.
I fully expect a (name withheld) diatribe to this post, but since's he's in my killfile, I'll never read it.
Actually, a transplant involves switching one for another.
In that person's case, I think it would have to be called a brain INSTALLATION, as there wasn't one to begin with.
Good luck, most of the local girls need brain transplants duh. for example. Saturday around the corner from my house, a local women was stopped by the police. She had 5 kids in the car, all from infant to 4 years old. No seat belt for her, NO CAR SEATS for the kids, No Insurance, and could not understand why she was pulled over, and why the cop took her keys.
It has been put on hold, and you know what that means. I am on Maui where we don t even have any Public Bus Service. HRT or the Bus in Oahu has been voted one of the top 10 bus companies in the USA and Canada for 10 years now, but that belongs on Bus Talk.
Don't believe Bob. He takes his lessons from Bill Clinton. There is no smog out here. Today we have a light breeze, white puffy clouds and it is partly sunny. Very nice. No respirator, and I'm told I don't look 59. I am giving the SAT test today between threads, and when I'm through I'm going on a 6-mile run. That's a Sea Beach man for you. Brighton Beach guys are pale, and walk with a cane, so I'm told. I will say this about my buddy Bob----he has got me pegged about being nostalgic and furious at the TA for what they have done to the Sea Beach. But being an optimist, the Sea Beach will rise again to greatness one day. I hope.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I think you are starting to become annoying with your many complaints about why the Sea Beach is what it is today. You should calm down because at least you know the other Broadway Line R will never EVER become an express service. I don't see people from THAT line complain as much as you are about the Sea Beach line. Or as you put it as just a friendly rivalry between you and Brighton Bob. I think if there are some issues that only concerns both of you and doesn't affect much of the others on this board then you should consider emailing each other privately.
I'll avoid reading any messages from now on with the subject containing the words "sea beach vs. brighton" and anything related.
Shouldn't this topic be on the FAQ section also? This has been going on for awhile.
Hey guy, you're the only one complaining as far as I know. Others seem to enjoy the jousting. If you don;t like it fine, you can put it in killfile or just don't read it. Either way I could care less. And you annoyed me with your thread. So we're even.
Ditto,
And I've got my finger poised on the rim shot button...
Did anybody see Discovery Channel s History of Coney Island on Sunday Afternoon/evening. To show you how popular the Brighton Line was, they showed 9 pictures of the Brighton, 1 of the West End, and No SEA BEACH or Culver Line. To Bad Fred
There was one shot in which a Culver train could be seen on the lower level of the elevated structure.
Geez, now I'm craving some Nathan's hot dogs after watching that show!! (Guess I'll drive up to Las Vegas, there's one at the MGM Grand....)
Go to your nearest Ralphs or Vons They usually have some. I even get them in Safeway here in Hawaii
One of the local chains here in SoCal has them. But they just aren't the same as when you get them at a REAL Nathan's place!
I know, my late Uncle said the same thing when they opened a Nathans in Studio City and then in the early 80s in Encino. You did not get the taste of the cook sweating over the grill to give it the special flavor, or in Yiddish the Schvitz of the Schvartza. Sorry he is a older generation.
Hehehe, that's a good way of putting it!
Seems like all the "available in your grocer" products just don't taste anything like the REAL thing. Like, uh, White Castle burgers. You just gotta have that special kind of grease on the grill to float the onions and see-through patties in!!!
Just made myself a egg cream, Seltzer, The last of my Fox s Ubet and milk. Just right
Gee. First it was Nathan's hot dogs to make me hungry. Now you're making me drool for a real egg cream!!!
Eat Your Heart Out. I will be at Nathans In 48 hours, for desert Carvels
Lucky you!
We HAD Carvel in SoCal for awhile, years ago, but they all disappeared off the face of the earth. That had to be the BEST soft ice cream on the planet!!
Come on Carvel couldn't compare with Baskin-Robbins, and that's why it disappeared off the face of the earth. BR was invented in California and has become an icon out here. It also drove Tastee Freeze and Foster's Freeze for cover. Soft Ice cream cannot match regular ice cream for flavor. And as far as egg creams are concerned, you can't get them in New York anymore because there are no candy stores around anymore. They didsappeared off the face of the earth.
Guess I'll have to go over to Albertson's and get some Fox's U-Bet syrup and make my own.
Wanna drop in for an egg cream, Fred? I'm only a few miles away!!
I have a railfan buddy nearby? Great!!!! Where are you from? E-Mail me at fperitor@ausd.k12.ca.us I love egg creams but didn't know that Albertson's sold Fox's U-Bet syrup. I have to get with the program. I will be in New York for three days in August on a baseball tour, but I'm still waiting for someone on this site to tell me if they know of a candy store-soda fountain establishment that still sells egg creams. I missed not having one last summer.
Someone did tell you of one.
There was a lengthy article in the New York Times about a year or two ago about "dead professions." These included profiles of a sign painter, seltzer man, bra store and CANDY STORE. Reportedly, the last one in New York is in on Lexington Avenue, closest to the 86TH Street Station.
Syrup in the Coke, Fizz in the Customers
Pigs: I don't live in New York so I didn't see the article, but I did write down Lexington Avenue close to the 86th Street Station. Now if I only knew the name of the place and is it still open. I guarantee that if I can find it I will go in there and have not only an egg cream, but an ice cream soda, and God knows what else. We have a drugstore-soda fountain six miles from where I live in California. An ex-Brooklynite named Mike Miller is doing a great business there. Th only problem is it's not in New York. To me soda fountains and egg creams were New York---if you know what I mean.
I posted an excerpt.
And it was in the New York Times, so not being in New York is no excuse in that case.
You got me Pigs. But give me a better attitude or I'll sik Salaam on you. Anyway I know of one such place off the 86th Street station on Lexington on what I think is the #4 line. I hope to get my real New York egg cream this summer when I'm there August 17-18.
I was the one that told you about it!
That's old age for you. Hell I can remember what happened 50 years ago to the day but can't remember what happened yesterday. Anyway thanks and I won't sik Salaam on you.
Just go to any ice cream shop and order an ice cream soda without the ice cream. Viola!!! An egg cream!!!
Come on Sarge, are you trying to be funny? Somehow I don' believe you solved my problem, but thanks anyway. I was told of a candy store on Lexington Avenue near the 86th Street station. I will make my way in there this summer when I visit your fair city----that is if I can find it or if it hasn't gone out of business.
NAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!
It just ain't quite the same, Jeffrey! :-)
You MUST -- absolutely MUST -- start out with Fox's U-Bet syrup and use genuine seltzer. Club soda and Hershey's syrup just don't cut it!
Not only Fox's U-bet syrup and whole milk is needed, you must use the seltzer that comes in a SYPHON bottle, not the garbage that is sold in the super markets. For a while there was a guy here on LI that had a route with a van with racks on its roof selling the seltzer in syphon bottles. Since the bottles are made of thick glass they can put more gas in the water without the bottle exploding like the thin plastic ones sold in the markets.
Unfortunately the bottles aren't being made anymore. The seltzer man said that if I found any bottles at garage sales, etc., that I should get a receipt and he would pay me double for the bottle. When I used to get the seltzer I would look at the etched glass on the bottles and realize that there must have been 50 seltzer companies in the NY area, all are probably gone now...Wonder if any survived.
You got to be kidding!!! Carvel is a million times better 'n Baskin Robbins and they certainly haven't disappeared from the face of the earth. They are all over New York, the only place in the world that counts!!! There was a problem with them years ago when Tom Carvel was acting like a dictator with his franchisees but he's out of the picture now and alot of the Carvels that changed names then have since reopened as Carvels.
Sure Sarge, New York is the only place that counts......Tell that to George W or Big Al and see what they tell you. You are #2 or is it #3? I will give you this. New York CITY is still No.1 among metropolises, but don't even think that as a state yours compares with mine. California is NO. 1. BTW, is it true that if Rudy drops out, Governor Pataki might run for the Senate? I would even declare loyalty to New York if it would keep Hillary out of the Senate. I just can't stand her.
As a state? Did you ever drive the Adirondack's Northway (I-87) between Albany & Montreal? One of the most beautiful roads in the world. Even if there was no such place as NYC look what you have in the rest of thestate:Lake GeorgeThe AdirondacksThe CatskillsCooperstown (baseball Hall of Fame)Saratoga SpringsNiagara Falls (Quiet, Hey Paul)The Finger LakesWest PointThe HamptonsMontaukThe Sleepy Hollow Area (From Washington Irving Fame)Howe CavernsFort TicondarogaLake PlacidLake Champlaineetc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
I-87 was voted America's most scenic highway back in the 60s. And this was before it was fully completed! They didn't finish it in time for Expo 67. We had to wind our way along US 9 for a good 60 miles while heading to Montreal on May 27, 1967.
It is a beautiful stretch of highway. Overgrown a bit, but beautiful.
OK, you guys have I-87. We have Yosemite, the Central and South Coast, beautiful beaches, Disneyland, Magic Mountain, and the best climate anywhere in theworld. Aas it is we are both proud of our respective states. As a native New Yorker, I don't want to bring my native state down and so I will just wish you a great weekend and get back to talking about candy stores that no longer exist, and about my Sea Beach.
Glad to hear they're still around. I'd do anything for some Carvel right now.....
........the same outfit is called '''CRYSTAL"" down south in atlanta those white castle things are much too small
especially coming off of a construction site building freeways and marta stations !!!
Crystal is a copycat chain, just like White Tower and a couple of others. They not only copy the architecture, the burgers are equally bad too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
like rallys - checkers ...
An ex-girlfriend of mine -- who is African-American -- used to remark on the fact that alot of White Castle's were found in black neighborhoods.
She even coined a play-on-words phrase about them that I still use: 'The Black Dungeon'.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting. I hadn't ever noticed anything particular like that about their location, I just remember that my mother was fond of the place and I never could understand why. There's one about a mile from our NJ house and I will admit I've been there a couple of times simply because (1) I wanted to prove it was possible to eat there and survive and (2) they do have good mozzarella sticks. Plus my wife wanted a square coffee mug for her collection :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first experience with White Castle happened about ten years ago. Not knowing much about the place, I ordered *one* burger. When it came, my reaction was similar to what would happen if you looked in the oven on Thanksgiving Day and saw a rock cornish game hen instead of a turkey. Little did I know that the customary order is at least four at a time.
BTW - those nasty wormburger stories about White Castle are NOT TRUE. They contain (reasonably) pure cow, nothing else.
If you have some desire for worms, don't fret, just hop on over to the nearest sushi bar (no joke).
Quite true. I like sushi, but only the cooked variety. The raw stuff I'll pass on, thank you.
Years ago White Castle burgers had a relatively high percentage of beef liver in the mix, something no other burger chain has done, AFAIK. I'm told that it is no longer used as an ingredient now, however - hasn't been since the Jack in the Box incident about 15 years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I never noticed any correlation between White Castle and the ethnicity of neighborhoods.
The only two I definitely remember...one was on Fordham Road in the Bronx, a couple blocks east of the Third Avenue "el" station. I grew up four blocks west of there -- but don't remember it being (at least in the 50's) a neighborhood of color). The other one I definitely remember the location of was on Queens Blvd., under the #7 line, around 40th Street or thereabouts. I don't know what kind of neighborhood that was (late 1960's).
I seem to remember stopping at one (around 1981 or so) on US-9 in Linden, NJ. More like a truck stop area than a neighborhood.
FYI, White Castle has a significant presence in the Chicago metro area, where their burgers are colloquially referred to as "sliders." Does anybody know here they are based?
They used to be based in Columbus, Ohio. The frozen packages in grocery stores still come from there.
That's cause they "slide" right through you, no doubt.
For that reason, some people refer to White Castle burgers as "Belly Bombers".
Want to do a number on yourself? Eat a minimum of FOUR White Castle Double Cheeseburgers. Works like a charm, as good as Castor Oil, every time.
Wayne
Back in high school days, a friend of mine used to work at a White Castle's (it's still there, the one on Fort Hamilton Pkwy in Borough Park) and told me the secret ingredients for the unusual -- and enticing taste of their burgers: (1) the buns are heated on the onion-soaked grilles; (2) the fact that the meat is from Liverwurst; (3) the holes in the burgers allowing the flavors to circulate throughtout the burger; (4) addition of the pickle.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, see my earlier post on the same subject. Liverwurst is made from pork, but beef liver supposedly was used as an ingredient up until general food safety concerns arising from the Jack In The Box incident about fifteen years ago caused the company to change the recipe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Last week I did something completely masochistic while working. I first went to the Tower Island Beef Paddy place on Atlantic & Boyland (Hopkinson) and had 2 spicy beef paddies. An hour later I went to White Castle (the one on Metropolitan & Buswick, by the "L" station) and had 8!!! And I actually survived!!!
P.S. I think the thing that makes White Castle so good is the grease getting into the bun. Its hard to tell where the meat ends and the bread begins.
Jeff, isn't that Tower Isle Beef Paddy place the "main plant" for that company? I understand that the company is based in Brooklyn and has been around since 1962.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes it is Doug. And they have a retail counter on Boylan Street. Since most pizzarias screw up beef paddies, they either leave it in the oven too long or actually deep fry 'em I figure the only place to get a perfectly cooked one is at the factory where they make 'em.
Tower Isle beef patties are GOOD! Every so often I grab a box at the supermarket to use as a side dish. I didn't know you could buy them right at the source. They're available in the frozen food section of just about every supermarket I've been to here on LI.
That sounds like a very dangerous and volatile combination - the jerk spices in the beef patties AND the "secret ingredients" in the W.C. burgers' mystery meat. Of course, some people are wholly unaffected by such stuff. White Castles don't bother ME but they DO bother some of my friends and acquaintances. What bothers me? Eggs.
wayne
Yes, those combinations of spicy dishes are almost as dangerous as thermo-nuclear weapons...:-)
Doug aka BMTman
A subway friend of mine introduced me to Beef patties wrapped in cocoa bread. Sad to say it was way too spicey for my aging digestive system. Now White Castles are something else. When i worked the midnight tour last year, once a week I'd send out to the one on Hillside Avenue for 2 or 3 sacks full with fries and onion rings. Everyone had 3 or 4 but any cleaner who didn't properly clean their train got 5 or 6. That taught them a lesson.
The one on Queens Blvd is still there, fairly recently remodeled....that particular area is quite heavily New Irish now...also about 100 other various ethnicities....White Castle is a very interesting company- all the stores are company owned, they only build new ones on a strictly cash basis by company builders, and they are VERY VERY conservative about where they locate [Ive been writing them for YEARS trying to get one up by our town...]. Another one that I know of is in JC, about 2 or 3 blocks north of Journal Square on Kennedy Blvd....Also one in Spring Valley/Nanuet......
There used to be a White Castle on Sunrise Highway, east of Valley Stream (was it in Lynbrook?). Does anyone know if that one is still there? Also, I am sort of surprised to find that White Castle has a couple of spanking new restaurants in Chicago's southern suburbs. It is an interesting Chicago phenomenon that White Castle is identified as a "South Side" presence, including the nearby southern suburbs.
Allow me to chime in on this topic. First I grew up in Sunnyside, Queens on 43rd St between Qns Blvd and 43rd Ave. This was just north of the White Castle that has been referred to. Its still there but has been expanded and a drive-in window put in. This effectively elimated the parking lot...Ethnicity of the neighborhood was predominately Irish and Jewish then, now new immigrant Irish and a lot of other nationalities.
There is another Chateau Blanc further east on Queens Blvd. near Woodhaven Blvd.and the Queens Center Mall. That is Elmhurst and a large Indian/Pakistani population. If you drive for the Green Bus Lines on their Q-60 you pass both of these.
The White Castle mentioned in Valley Stream or Lynbrook, is in Lynbrook on Sunrise Highway, corner of Broadway directly underneath the LIRR station. Lynbrook is a predominately blue collar community of whites.
There are several other Chateau's that are not in poor neighborhoods, namely Bayside (Bell and Northern), East Meadow ( Hempstead Tpke near NCMC),Melville (Rte 110 near Walt Whitman Mall), Commack (Jericho Tpke and Commack Rd) so I don't think that its a racial thing but there is a fairly new one on Atlantic Ave and Classon (Brooklyn) and Atlantic Ave east of Penn ave ( East NY section of Brooklyn)
There's a White Castle a few blocks from Journal Square station, in which was probably once a mostly Black neighborhood but is now 100% Indian. The only redeeming value is that it's open 24 hours, so that if you've knocked back a few beers and all of a sudden get a white castle jones, you're set. (Or, as the Smithereens sung, the White Castle Blues)...
If my memory serves me correctly, most -- if not all White Castle's ARE open 24 hours! That's why in poor or 'marginal' neighborhood's you will find ample bulletproof glass separating you from the workers!
BTW here's a bit of White Castle Trivia(unless it was posted already): where was the very first White Castle in Brooklyn (hint -- it's still there!)?
Doug aka BMTman
But they have holes in the glass! Not that useful if you ask me.
Duck when you see the bullets coming!
('I'll take a round of ammo with those fries, please!')
:-)
To match the holes in the hamburgers?
Aiming a bullet to fly directly through the holes is surely not easy. And if someone were to carefully line up a gun flush with the glass so the bullet would get through the hole, that WOULD give the clerk time enough to get out of the way. I guess. I'm sure someone thought this through when designing the partitions.
Could the first Chateau Blanc in the County of Kings been on Malbone St. a/k/a Empire Blvd ??? Of course Malbone St, this is Sub-Talk.
I don't know if that was the first but I was once talking to a big honcho from the White Castle Comp who said the one at Empire Blvd & Utica is the busiest branch in the country.
Hey, Jeff!
You inadvertantly answered the WC's Trivia Question correctly: the first White Castle's (at least in Brooklyn was the one at Empire Blvd. and Utica Ave.)
Doug aka BMTman
[There's a White Castle a few blocks from Journal Square station, in which was probably once a mostly Black neighborhood but is now 100% Indian. The only redeeming value is that it's open 24 hours, so that if you've knocked back a few beers and all of a sudden get a white castle jones, you're set. (Or, as the Smithereens sung, the White Castle Blues)...]
White Castle *Browns* is probably a more appropriate expression, given their alleged effects on the gastrointestinal system :-)
We had a couple in Baltimore (I don't think they're around anymore) but our local spin was the Little Tavern Shops. Same burgers, same distinctive flavour, and square buns to boot. They started out in the 1930's, cost was 5 cents. Their slogan was "Buy 'em By The Bag". The last one I remember was in our answer to Dizzyland, Harborplace. The price wasn't 5 cents anymore, and the buns were the standard round, but that distinctive flavour was still there. It was still there in 1994, but the last time I wandered downtown to Harborplace, it was gome. Somebody told me that there's still one or two around, but I've never located 'em.
[We had a couple in Baltimore (I don't think they're around anymore) but our local spin was the Little Tavern Shops. Same burgers, same distinctive flavour, and square buns to boot. They started out in
the 1930's, cost was 5 cents. Their slogan was "Buy 'em By The Bag".]
Interesting ... White Castle has a very similar slogan, "Get a Sackful," or something to that effect. One of them probably copied from the other.
In central Connecticut, particularly in the cities of Meriden and Middletown, the local favorite is *steamed* cheeseburgers. I know, they sound disgusting, but they're actually quite good. It's not as if there's a separate layer of cheese on top of the meat, as is usually the case; instead, the meat and cheese become blended together. A fairly strong cheddar cheese is recommended.
As far as I know, "steamers" aren't served at any franchised places, but rather at a number of independent diners and taverns. I think that their popularity may have faded somewhat in recent years, though I'm not certain.
Hmmm. Do you mean that the raw meat is cooked only by steaming it with cheese? Or that a cooked meat patty is steamed together with cheese to make the cheeseburger?
[re central Connecticut's steamed cheeseburgers]
[Hmmm. Do you mean that the raw meat is cooked only by steaming it with cheese? Or that a cooked meat patty is steamed together with cheese to make the cheeseburger?]
I've seen "steamers" made at a couple of places. I can't guarantee that every place follows the same method. But at the ones I saw, the cook places raw meat and a piece of cheddar cheese in a rectangular mold, and then puts the mold into a steam cabinet. Both the mold and the cabinet probably are purpose-built for steamers. Just a couple of minutes are enough to cook the meat and melt the cheese into it. The result is more like a flattened ball than a neat patty, as we're normally accustomed to seeing.
You know, I lived in Cheshire, CT (right next to Meriden) for just over four years and never heard of a steamed cheeseburger. Ignorance? Perhaps.
Now, grinders is another story....
"Alleged" effects?
Believe me, if I have a problem getting stuff through, a round of White Castle's products will make everything just slide right on out. Works better than anylaxative available over the counter!!
Thats because the heavy-duty fats in the meat and the grease can't broken down or absorbed by bacteria and enzymes in the colon, and they just go right on through.
wayne
There are no enzymes in the colon, they would serve no purpose if there were. And everything that makes it that far would slide right out anyway.
Kind of like olestra, isn't it?:-)
There was a staged interview done by a couple of radio hosts in Denver a few years back. They talked with someone who was supposedly taste testing fat-free potato chips made with olestra, and about every 30 seconds you could hear a toilet flushing. The interviewee kept muttering stuff like, "Oi, gevalt". I could tell by the timbre of his voice he was the show's producer. It was still pretty funny, though. He even made olestra jokes:
"They want me to try a candy bar made of this stuff."
"What's it called?"
"Depth Charge"
Tastes better than any laxative too!!!
[The White Castle mentioned in Valley Stream or Lynbrook, is in Lynbrook on Sunrise Highway, corner of Broadway directly underneath the LIRR station. Lynbrook is a predominately blue collar community of whites.]
I lived in Lynbrook, and although the town is predominantly blue-collar German/Irish/Italian, I can say with much authority that the White Castle's main clientele were blacks (probably from the next town to the west, Valley Stream, or otherwise city travelers stopping off from a drive down Sunrise Hwy).
Doug aka BMTman
Not to mention the utterly FILTHY White-Castle near the Sunrise Mall, along Sunrise Highway, west of Louden Street in East Massapequa. This one's burgers literally OOZE grease. Delicious!
You guys forgot the W.C. (no pun intended) in Bay-Ridge at 5 Avenue and ~ 96 Street, as you get off the Verrazano Bridge.
Wayne
The one on Sunrise Hway in Lynbrook under the LIRR is still there.
Most White Castles in NY seem to be in good railfanning locations. As a kid in the late 50's early 60's my parents used to take us to the West Hempstead one on Hempstead Tnpk just N/O the W Hemp station next to S Klein on the Square. There were waitresses that would take your order right at your car and deliver the tray right on your car window. It was right next to the railroad crossing for the old route from West Hempstead to Country Life Press. Although I think service was long since stopped I was a lil kid and always prayed for a train to go through. When I saw a train in the W Hemp station I hoped it would continue north. The tracks are long gone now, Kleins is now Shopper's Village, and the White Castle was rebuilt and actually moved a few doors east to the corner of Front Street.
Other White Castle notes: Alot of them in NYC are combinations White Castle/Church's Fried Chicken. The one under the West End at 86th Street is something else now.
All of the NYC ones were White Castle only, then they added Church's to most if not all of them.
That's what I meant.
A funny White Castle story. Its true and it points out that subliminal messages can actually give you a craving. Whenever I drove on the Cross Bronx Expressway I always got a craving for White Castle and never understood why. One day I noticed a sign on the Expway and realized the reason for the cravings. This is what the sign said:
White Plains Road
Castle Hill Ave
You mean this:
Yes!!!! And believe me its true about subliminal messages. I definitely thought about White Castles when I passed there. Coincidentally I think there is a W.C. on the service road around there.
Did you actually go out and snap that picture just for that posting??
That's actually some clever graphics that Pigs has done - I've seen similar stuff on a Pennsylvania Turnpike fan site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
http://www.kurumi.com/roads/signmaker/index.html
...........i knew you stole this from somewhere ......!!
Good grief, Salaam, can't you say anything to Pigs without flaming him? He didn't steal it, he used the program furnished on that site to generate it. I thought it was nicely done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
..................you know how ( some ) people ""borrow something permanetly "" then claim it as thier original .....!!!!
I wasnt picking on anybody however since he hides behind his ""killfile"" only you and I will see it !!
( what I last posted )........
WRONG
...........flushed out a quail.........i mean a pig ....!!!!!
Can anyone think of a White Castle in Midtown or downtown? Took the train into the city for the day - uneventful. Had lunch at a local semi-famous deli on Houston St although we would have liked some belly-bombs. Question - not train related. The place we ate at had cold cuts hanging in the window. How long can a Salaami hang without spoiling?
There's a Blimpie near where I work and they have a large hero sitting in the front window - looks very realistic - but it's been there for weeks - what gives? So I checked it out- It's plastic.
Very nice facsimile.
I take it the salamis were real. Dried, cured salami can last quite a while. That's how they preserved meats before modern refrigeration.
Wayne
.........A Spoiled BALONEY ( yours ) is already spoiled and stinking ...........!!!!!
I do not eat rotten spoiled and stinking BALONEY like you do fool ......!!!!
Coincidence!!!! Me and my 3 1/2 yr old son Arthur had dinner yesterday at Katz's!!!
Very coincidental. They have the Carnegie and Stage beat - hands down.
Oh yeah.....I took someone there once who had only been to the Carnegie before, and they almost went out of their skull after tasting the pastrami! Wait til they try Pastrami King!!! [To keep this sort of on topic, they all agreed it was worth the subway ride...OK Dave?!?]
Lou, where is Pastrami King now, since the one on Queens Blvd. in Kew Gardens shut down in 1998? I read where they were going to move to Manhattan, but I haven't found an address for them yet.
And yes, Pastrami King was worth the ride out on the E/F to Kew Gardens.
T'was one advantage of working in Jamaica Yard albiet the prices were a tad steep. On the other hand, you could get a full meal in the Con Edison Cafateria for $3 or $4 and have a view of jamaica Yard too.
KATZ' Kosher Delicatessen is the Genuine Article, no contest. Nothing even comes CLOSE as far as Corned Beef and Pastrami are concerned. It's worth the trip.
Wayne
Our President ate at Katz's last year. According to the sign at the table he sat at, 'chubby' had 2 hot dogs, a corned beef sandwich, fries and a diet soda. NO SALAMI..... Hilly did not eat at Katz's. According to her, pastrami without butter is uncivilized.
Pastrami WITH butter is unspeakable! The only things I put on pastrami are Gulden's Mustard AND/OR Mayo.
wayne
And I thought she wanted the Jewish vote.
She does as long as she doesn't have to get too close.
...and on white bread with a Seven-Up, no doubt.
Gee, did Mr. Bill ask for a definiton of "pastrami"?:-)
Or did he even remember having it before?
They told him it tasted like ferrett so he tried it.
They didn't bring Hilly along on that trip after the
time before that. It seems that Hilly went down to
the lower east side on a Sunday. When introduced to
the leader of the Hasedic community, ms. clinton
expressed suprise that NY City had so many Amish.
Talk about Ignorance with a capital I.... I can only imagine what that leader's reaction was.
Steve,
Please forgive me. That was just my attempt at humor - to illustrate how much Hilly actually knows about the mosaic of New York. To my knowledge, it never really happened although I'm quite sure that it would.
05/15/2000
Here we go again, talkin' about food again.
If we're young, we talk about sex,
If we're middle age, we talk about food,
If we're old, we talk about the weather.
Somewhere along the line, we should talk about trains.
Am I missing something here?
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill,
We've had trains, but if you ever spend a lot of time with trains, ya gotta eat. I love streetcars, but every once in a while, the stomach starts to rumble. So, food is usually welcome.
Gino's (our local once-upon-a time burger chain in Baltimore) and the Little Tavern looked mighty inviting at 11 PM on an all-night straight. I had quite a few Gino Giants on the dash of a PCC car, working too many all-night straights.
Bill
There was a time in the gloriest past of the NYCT when the platforms were cluttered with vending mahines of every type. The passageways had chain and indepentant fast type food servers. This all contributed to garbage on the tracks and everywhere else. I'm sure we'll agree things are a lot better now .Near transit food establishments sort of makes it under the wire as a topic.
Here's a thought , Katz Deli dinning cars with just legal waitress and the weather channel on flat screen ,followed by the history channel's episode on "Subway Living" hosted by Martha Steward. (sic)
avid
Dan, that "Gino's" chain that you said was local to Baltimore -- they were even out here in California around 1980-1981!!! I was surprised,
actually, when I went back to the DC area in 1981 and found them there; I thought they were local to US out here!!!
Gino's is the place to go.
The chain got its name from Colts star Gino Marchetti. He got into the food business when he teamed up with Alan (The Horse) Amechie in Alan's drive-in business. Their company was A&G Foods, from (very obviously,) their initials. Amechie's was noted for its star burger, The GIANT. Gino started the fast-food side, named after him. The Giant migrated over to Gino's, and the rest was history. Eventually, A&G Foods was acquired by Marrott, who folded the chain into their Roy Rogers chain.
In 1963 it was solidly Gino's and the chain was 95% still drive-in. They were starting to enclose the outlets to provide an inside dining room at that time, but the ones on the 8 & 15 lines were still drive-in/walk up and open.
IIRC, Gino's had the Sirloiner, a hamburger with ground sirloin.
And, in at least parts of New Jersey Gino's had the KFC franchise.
I had relatives that used to live in the Baltimore area [Perry Hall] back in the late '60s-early '70s, and IIRC, Ginos was the ONLY place in the Balt. area that had KFC, as they were one of those companies that bought their franchise directly from the Colonel, before he sold out to John Brown. In another Balto oddity I remember that there were no Dairy Queens in Baltimore for some reason....
There are no Dairy Queens in New York either. I only know of one in Fort Lee.
Speaking of chains that are no longer existant, how many here remember Carrols? Wetsons? We never got Wetsons up here, but Carrols was our only fast food around here for a longgg time..we used to put it down terribly...but now...I sure could use a ClubBurger right now! What was Wetsons like? Was there any other chains that anyone misses??
I recall a Weston's used to be at Empire Blvd. and Flatbush Ave. back in the 70's! I almost forgot about that! Thanks for jarring my memory banks!
Doug aka BMTman
Wetsons on Flatbush , across from Kingsplaza, circia 1967,68,69
avid
Kings Plaza existed in neither of those years.
Wetsons was very much like the early McDonalds. No inside eating area, you purchased your burgers etc. from a window and ate in your car. There was one on Sunrise Highway somewhere east of Valley Stream that my family used to frequent every Summer, particularly after a day at Hewlitt beach which we did quite a bit back then. Is Hewlitt Beach Club still there?
05/18/2000
The closest thing you'll find to a Wetson's out here on Long Island is "All American" on Merrick and Hicksville Roads in Massapequa. In fact the building is a copy of a Wetson's drive in except the glazed bricks are blue and white. The food is first rate and cheaper than McDonald's, Burger King etc. Long lines at lunch and dinner time will explain that.
Bill "Newkirk"
Say, Bill, would you know if that old-time themed ice cream parlor is still there out in Massapequa? I think the name of the place is 'Frisches' or something like that. I belonged to a car club a few years back that used to meet there once a month (it was an interesting drive for me, considering I was coming from Midwood!).
P.S., I think the establishment was a block or two north of Sunrise Hwy (and the LIRR El structure).
Doug aka BMTman
why not hank ?? you get hungry shooting railfan vidieos in 5 hour shifts... and then you need something to eat !!!
Why do you always confuse Bill Newkirk with Hank Eisenstein?
Maybe I shouldn't even ask.
You shouldn't. It's self evident. Killfile Hurrah!!!!
There's a White Castle on the odd side of 5th, between 32nd and 33rd (near the Empire State Building). It has (predictably) a Church's Chicken built in.
Thank you. I was through the area yesterday and must have walked right past it.
During my trip into the city, I saw several of the 500 series locos. Seems that the've all (the one's I saw) had the horns relocated. They look lousy & sound indistinct. The clean looks of the loco are ruined by the placment. Seems that for $125,000 per for the modification, they could have done better.
The $125,000 figure was to do ALL the locomotives. LIRR said it cost about $2700 per unit to relocate the horns.
I thought the same thing but knowing what vendor modifications cost it sounded a bit low. The cost of engineering, drawings, material, labor, etc. amortizes over 34 locos....... However, I have heard the same figure (per loco) from 2 engineers. Neither the $2700 or the $125,000 figure sounds realistic to me.
The $2700 figure sounds VERY realistic to me.
As built, the units' horns had an air pipe up to the base of the horn, with an electric solenoid controlled valve.
Now they have the horns on the front of the unit with a mechanically controlled air valve. All they had to do was make a new mounting for the horn itself up front, run an air pipe from the middle of the units (where the horns were) up to the control stand, attach the air valve, and then run an air pipe up to the new horn mounting.
The air valves run around $750 bucks or more, depending on which model they chose to use. A couple grand for the rest of the job on each unit sounds reasonable.
These are actually the ONLY WC outlets that are franchised..a VERY bold step for a VERY conservative company....
...........ok young man ......how did you post that ?? did you create this or download that image ??........
Sounds just like the In-N-Out Burger chain in California (and lately Nevada and Arizona). Family owned, no franchises. Very selective locations. They have a VERY limited menu -- hamburgers, cheeseburgers, and double cheesburgers, fries, sodas and milkshakes. No need for a product development department!! They are a thriving operation.
Ditto for Nathan's Franks. While the store-bought Nathan's franks are not bad if grilled or broiled, they certainly aren't the same as at Coney Island - the munge that grows on the grills at CI can't be easily duplicated at home.
Wayne
05/10/2000
Add to this that the only way to eat a Nathan's hot dog and their famous fries is being there in Coney Island and looking dead at Stillwell Terminal!!
Bill Newkirk
Nevertheless, Nathan's still tastes better than other hot dogs. For some reason Kosher hot dogs taste much better to me. I'm not a Jew so I'm certainly no expert in the field, but I can swear that Kosher hot dogs taste a lot better than ordinary hot dogs. I don't know if it's psychological or what, but I know what my taste buds tell me. Do any of you get the same feeling? BTW, even though Coney Island is not part of the tour we are taking in our three day stay in New York in August, I will be heading out to Coney to ride the Cyclone and eat at Nathan's. Can a native New Yorker coming back to his ancestral city do anything else?
Oh, see the Mets at Shea, take an A train up CPW, etc.:-)
I should talk, right? I'm not even a NYC native.
Being a New Yorker is also a state of mind. If you are a subway buff and an "A" train fanatic, which you are, you are an honorary New Yorker at the very least.
Yeah, I agree, Fred! It's either Nathan's or Hebrew National for me when I want to have hot dogs.
The crap from Oscar Mayer and Farmer John is awful.....
........one of the better kosher dogs I tasted was at the penn station at newark below the PATH ....
next is the steamed hebrew national dogs and polish dogs at COSCO wharehouse served with a soda......price $ 1.5o....!!!
i agree with you on oscar myer and especially farmer john !! the awful SMELL"" as you drive by thier plant ...!!!
besides I cannot eat ""pig" and or ""pork"" being muslim ..........nathans are not kosher approved..!!!
......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
My favorite hot dogs is Katz' on Houston Street even though they are not Kosher. Get off the IND at the 2Av & Houston stop.
Who cares how many times they showed the Brighton on the Discovery Channel.. No one watches that has-been channel. So probably no one saw it. Too bad Bob. As a matter of fact I'm bidding on a book on the Sea Beach on E-Bay right now. They are a dozen or so who have bid. I haven't seen anybody bidding on a book on the Brighton because there haven't been any and probably won't be. Sorry Bob.
That's funny, Fred, I couldn't find it when I searched just now ... but I did find another item (so far with no bids) that might interest you - from the New York and Sea Beach RR days.
New York and Sea Beach Victorian Trade Card
Disclaimer: While I do buy and sell items on eBay this is not one of my listings; I have no knowledge of this item other than having spotted it while trying to find the item Fred referenced above.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Anon. What I'm bidding on is the the 1979 book Riding on the Sea Beach. It has over 80 pictures of my favorite train. Somebody in Texas, of all places, has put it on E-Bay for sale. Still, I see a lot of Sea Beach stuff, and no Brighton material whatsoever. What does that tell you? Now tell Bob.
Whats the name of the book?
........the best ice cream I have ever tasted was homemade..........hands down ,,,,,,,,,
And another Brighton boy comes crawling out of the woodwork. Come on you Sea Beach aficiandos, start crawling out, too. I can't keep fighting this battle alone, but if I have to you bet I will. Good thread Anon, now go out and pick some cotton in that Confederate state of yours. Or is it tobacco? Maybe both? Should I ask Al Gore?
Gore the bore? Sorry, we've got our hands full with Gov. Jim Hunt. At least this fall there will be a real election for governor of North Carolina, not some dog-and-pony show. The Republicans have the better candidate in Dick Vinroot (former mayor of Charlotte, but I won't hold that against him) but I have to admit that Mike Easley has a lot of good points too - not the least of which is that, as a District Attorney and now Attorney General, he hasn't been afraid to tackle corruption at the highest levels of his own party (as a DA he sent the late former Lt. Gov. Jimmy Greene to jail for bribery, income tax evasion, and arson, among other crimes). And then there's the Libertarian, Barbara Howe - a certified nut case if there ever was one (trust me, I know - she and my wife have been friends for nearly 20 years - thank G-d the craziness hasn't rubbed off).
And no, it's not cotton or tobacco, it's chickens, soybeans, cucumbers, and yams :-) (Mount Olive pickles are THE best!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All right! I'll come out of the closet and admit, tha I always liked the Sea Beach line more than the other Brooklyn lines, even if my favorite was REALLY the IRT in the Bronx wher I was raised.
Yeh, but you are in Calif., It seems only Southern Calif People like the Sea Beach Line, no wonder it is the area of Fruits and Nuts(Only kidding Steve)
No, it's not only fruits and nuts. Southern California is th GRANOLA BOWL of the world.
If it isn't a fruit or a nut, it's a flake!!! :-)
Especially in Disney County
Bet you didn't know Southern California had a suburb where it snows. Western Montana and South Central Montana became such in the late 80's and early 90's. So now I'm in North Dakota , no mountains, nobody want to move here. My days in Livingston MT confirm your thoughts.. ha ha, all in good fun though.
in fact i have been here when it did snow !! especially in the upper regions of altadena california...
the town above pasadena california.. ( the higher elvations )
the angeles crest highway # 2 rides north of la canada called the angeles crest and angeles forest highway ...
it is my favorite when its hot here its nice and cool up there where there are real mountains ...
the mount wilson transmitters are up there also And with a spectactular view when there is no rain fog or smog ...
the drive thru the breathtaking forrest is much better than any i have seen in georgia !!!
even when i was up there all i could seem to think about were the mount lowe railway that used to be there !!
Thanks for the education.Being honest I've never been to any part of California except Frisco. I enjoyed their gem of a light rail system and to a degree BART. Might mention since Frisco has Milan Peter Witts that when Ivisited Milan in Oct/98 the Witts were in regular service on several lines, not just as trippers. But as the subject is So.Cal now that LA has some rail transit (electric) not to mention San Diego I guess I owe the place a visit.
skip lost angeles ( los angeles ) and go straight to san diego and ride the red trolley down there ....
thats where a transit system is ....!!
Don t let anyone from San Francisco hear you call the city Frisco, that was a name of a old Railroad, They call in SAN FRANCISCO or the City. Some times in So Calif you could go Surfing in the Morning, Ski at lunch, and have dinner at a desert Casino, and the total round trip is less 350 miles for all 3.
I guess I'm doing something wrong here in Southern California!! I don't surf, I don't ski, and I'd be damned if I I'm gonna eat dinner at the casino before riding the roller coaster for half the night (like I usually do when we stay up at Buffalo Bill's at the state line....wifey is the one that keeps the handles on the slot machines warm.)
I m talking about the Indian Casinos out by Palm Springs, and the Poker Casinos in Gardena have good food
I belly board surf, and toboggan. That's close enough. And I love roller coasters. I rode the one in New York, Las Vegas over Easter vacation. Two 144 drops. Sensational. Oh yes, you have to ride in the front car. That's the only was to fly.
Yep, great coaster. Expensive though, it's now up to EIGHT BUCKS a ride. But, they did try to give it some NY theming, you pay your eight bucks and get a brass token that looks very much like a larger version of the subway tokens. And the waiting queues look like an elevated station, with the corrugated aluminum siding, yellow handrails, grafitti. Only thing it didn't have was the urine smell!!
My coaster preference is the one out at the state line at Buffalo Bill's. Twenty-one bucks gets you an all-you-can-ride pass, and believe me, after you ride it for four hours without getting out of the seat (when it's slow, they don't make you get out...), your bottom is sore the next morning. (Unfortunately, this coaster is one of the bumpier ones on planet earth.....though it is one of the fastest and tallest.)
Only in California is that possible. We're the greatest,,,but all of you guys out there knew that already. BTW, after a slight drizzle coming in from the north, it became warm and sunny. Typical California day. How was it in your neck of the woods? Not so good I'd bet.
It's May, it's always warm and sunny.
Does anyone know why the IRT, BMT, and IND electrified their lines with 660 v thrird rail as opposed to catenary? I've been to many foreign countries and almost all of their metros use overhead wire. Same thng goes for the LIRR. And since it was owned by the PRR and it was so close to the New Haven shoulden't they too have used catenary to be more versatile?
And when was freight catenary along the Bay Ridge Line removed?
When was the catenary over the PATH tracks removed? What was it used for? Some sections still remain up (like at the bridge after Journal Sq. You'll see it outside the railfan window).
/*Does anyone know why the IRT, BMT, and IND electrified their lines with 660 v thrird rail as opposed to catenary?*/
Tunnel clearnces.
And the small detail that single phase AC traction, nor 3kv DC traction was around back then.
/*Same thng goes for the LIRR.*/
ditto. They never converted it because by the time the AC MP-54s came around (1917), the LIRR had a lot of third rail down.
/*When was the catenary over the PATH tracks removed? What was it used for? */
It was pulled over various years. It was used for PRR commuter train out of Exchange place, I think.
Were any of the PRR pre-Hudson River tunnnel main line trains into exchange place electric also?
No. The electrification was done as part of the tunnel project, and was initially third rail on the PRR as well, Manhattan Transfer to Penn Station only. The overall Northeast Corridor electrification was done some twenty years later. Overhead wire was selected at that time for a number of reasons, including the voltage being used (11,500 volts AC, 25 cycles) and the numerous grade crossings still existing at that time (they weren't all eliminated until sometime in the '60s).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The third rail was used for two reasons: tunnel clearances and reliability. Overhead wire was thought to be insufficient for the current levels required to power subway trains. It was also considered impractical for elevated railways, and there is some justification for that - try maintaining overhead wire strung along a structure shoehorned between buildings and/or over a street.
The overhead wire remnants found on PATH come from the days when the H&M was a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania RR. The Pennsy ran commuter trains into Journal Square and also ran electric-powered freight on immediately adjacent tracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The H&M also used PRR PL signals in the above ground sections and the H&M tracks were controled from PRR interlocking towers (namely DOCK, HUDSON, HACK and WALDO). Between DOCK and WALDO the only differance between H&M and PRR tracks was that they had 3rd rail as well as overhead. The H&M was fully integrated into the PRR system and the tracks were used interchangeably. If you look at the segment between HUDSON and DOCK you'll see the remains of PL signals over the PATH tracks and crossovers that just don't quite connect anymore. That is the reason H&M was classified as a railroad.
Right. While I don't remember the H&M very well (we rarely had occasion to ride it) I was there on a couple of occasions back when PRR was still in charge and seeing the freights move through Journal Square. For that matter, I've got pictures of a Conrail train doing the same thing about 1989.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has anyone seen the white semaphore on the PATH tracks entering Journal Sq. from Newark? Is this also a remnant from the H&M, or does it serve a purpose?
Daniel
the "k" cars of the h&m also had prr cab signals
Actually,only 1200-1229 which were owned by PRR and designated MP-52 were equipped with PRR cab signals. When in Newark service,these cars had to be on the head end for that reason.
You're referring to the "Smashboards" that are found at either end of the "Hack" and "Dock" lift bridges. When down,they serve as added warning that the bridge is open.
I was thinking that too, but A) Smashboards are yellow and B) he said entering JSQ from NWK so the train would be heading east into JSQ and by that point they are way past the bridges.
PATH's smashboards are white,and they're the only things remotely resembling semaphores in the outdoor section. In my memory,the only other type of signals used in this area were Position Lights,the last of which were replaced in the early '80's.
There's smashboards on both tracks on the JSQ side; so you would actually see one on your track heading off the bridge into JSQ. I can't remember but I would think they are on the Newark side of the bridge as well.
I ride the PATH to Newark fairly often. It seems that there has been a recent resurgeance of freight through Journal Square.
There should actually be less freight going thru JSQ in the past few years since they re-aligned the Waldo connection. Trains coming from Kearny used to have to pull thru JSQ and reverse. A new bridge (opened in 1994 or 1995 or thereabouts) has eliminated that so trains can get from Kearny to Croxton without reversing thru JSQ.
Dave, does the track going west through the Bergen tunnel circle around through Journal Square? I think that the trains I have seen at Journal Square were coming from or going to the track that curves around to the north just before the PATH portal.
I have had the opportunity several times to see and hear the MTH 0 Gauge model of the D train. The set with the sound effects realy sounds good even though the real R-42's do not have door chimes. I took particular notice of the car #'s on the MTH train and they are 4714-4715, 4698-4699 and 4550-4551.
I have been wondering ever since I wrote the numbers down if the actual cars bearing these numbers are still rolling along or have some of them been lost through accident or otherwise over the years.
Do any of the roster experts on the site know?
Four of the six cars are in service in the Eastern Division, and they share duties between the "J", "L", "M" and "Z" lines.
#4714-4715 have been scrapped. Not sure exactly what happened to them.
The only R42 to be lost through accident or attrition are as follows:
#4664 (wrecked 6-5-1995)
#4680-4681 (accident in 1980s)
#4685 (accident at 135th st in 1980s, just went to scrap recently)
#4714-4715 (scrapped, no other information available)
#4726 (wrecked in 1980s - nose grafted onto #4918)
#4766-4767 (scrapped, no other information available)
*** #4684 and #4727 - odd couple
*** #4665 odd couple with R40M #4460.
wayne
Thank you, Wayne!
It's just a guess, but I suspect that MTH picked these numbers for their models about three years ago since the train came on the market almost two years ago. 4714 is the number on the MTH power car that actually pulls the other five cars. It's kind of ironic that the number that pulls the train, actually has already been scrapped.
Karl
As an aside to that: #4714 and #4715, as well as #4698-4699, when originally delivered, were assigned to the "D" line.
#4550-4551, when originally delivered, were assigned to the "RR" first (during their tests), and then the "N".
I wonder if they provided a decal/sticker kit to put on the models.
Wayne
I don't know if they did or didn't. I thought the two sets came with the D or the E stickers on them.
Since the J is the line I am most familiar with, it would be great for me to get the set and some J stickers, if they were available. I'm sure that I would have a tough time explaining why the train was signed J and the voice was announcing Stillwell Ave.:)
I don't know if they're O27 or HO gauge; but you can make a stick-on pretty easily:
Get some white self-stick labels from a stationery store and draw the "J" bullet with a brown pencil (Sanford Prismacolor #941 Light Umber is a good match) and the "J" itself with a white one (#938 White, same brand as above) and use a black felt-tip to fill in the background.
Then you can cut out the label to fit the sign on the car end; an Exacto knife would work well. Peel off the backing and press in place.
Wayne
That's a good idea! They are 0-27 sets.
I guess that I had better try to save up for a set of the cars first.
Maybe you could sign them as an M train prior to when they went from the Brighton Line to the West End.
This is an M train to Coney Island.
The next stop is Church Avenue.
Stand clear of the closing doors.
You know, that's not a bad idea! I always liked the M except where they competed for passengers with my beloved gate cars on the Myrtle Ave portion of the line. In my railfan days the train only went to Chambers St, so I was not that familiar with the rest of the route.
If you're going to sign it up as an "M" - don't forget, the "M" to use is the light blue one, not the brown one. And a full sign, not a little bullet. Sanford Prismacolor Deco Blue #1015 is a good match for the blue "M".
Wayne
I am going to print out these colors, I'll never remember those names.
Thanks!
Well, there used to be a QJ (with a red bullet) which ran to Coney Island on weekdays and to Broad St. all other times. It became the J in January of 1973 when it was permanently cut back to Broad St.
A red bullet? That was the "QB". The "QJ" was black like the "LL" or the "B" used to be. The "JJ" was orange.
wayne
I stand corrected. You're absolutely right. I must have been thinking of the RJ, which did have a red bullet.
Actually, the "RJ" only had a red bullet on the map, not on any of the cars. Only the R27/R30 had "RJ" signs, and they were a white letter on a black oil-cloth. The R16/R32/R38 multi-colored roll signs never had an "RJ", but did have red "QB"s as well as red "HH"s, and a black "QJ" AND an orange "JJ".
How I wish I still had that sign....looks like if I want one I'll have to shell out to Mr. Fiori...
Wayne
You know, we haven't heard a peep out of Mr. Rollsign in some time now. I wonder how he's doing. The R-1/9 destination curtain I picked up from him is nice; the Wash. Hts 207th St. sign is immaculate. So is the BMT standard route curtain (a bit dirty, but in good shape).
Just for the record, I don't know anyone who has an E train from MTH, but if my old eyes haven't failed me, the catalog picture would indicate that the E train is numbered 4904-4905 and 4824-4825. The picture of the two car add-on set shows the same numbers as the last two, so I don't know what numbers are really on the add-on cars.
Are the above four numbers good ones?
The add-0ns for the E trai are numbered 4600-01.
Thank You! MTH sure did not have those numbers on the add-on cars pictured in the catalog.
Since you did not say anything, I must have read the numbers for the original four cars correctly out of the catalog. They sure were tough to read!
I have both sets of 6 cars. The E train numbers are correct as you gave them.
Thanks for the input! Out of curiosty, do you have the sets with the complete sound system? From the aftermarket prices that I have heard, I could apparently buy a set without the station annouincements at a much lower price than one with announcements. I realize that there was a $100.00 price difference originally. One MTH buff has told me that the sound sets have appreciated since issue whereas those without have depreciated. Would you agree with that? Have you heard anything about a rumor that MTH is going to make sound chips available for other lines beside the D & E? Supposedly an A train is the first on the list to be offered, but the parts necessary are to be very expensive, and there is no mention of a way to change the trains visible letter designation. Wayne posted a way to change them which sounds as if it should work.
My D train set is horn only. My E train set is with the Proto-sound. The proto sound is nice but takes a little practice to coordinate it with the operation. I just sold one E-set on E-bay for approximately $180 which was slightly less than the list price. I bought the proto version on Ebay for around $230 which is significantly below list price. The R-21 set I have on order will also be with proto-sound and at somewhat less than the $300 list. All things being equal, if you can afford it, the proto is a nice feature but if that $100 difference means the difference between having a set or not, opt for the non-proto version. They're just too nice to pass up.
Thanks for all of the information! I have seen the D train with the sounds in action on several occasions. I have looked at the catalog pictures of all three sets, and think that I am going to wait for the R-21, which is coming out in the fall. They seem to be the same, or close to the R-17 which is the last NY subway car that I have ridden on.
The R-21s and R-17s were very similar in appearance. The most noticeable difference is the storm door window. As you may recall, the R-17s had a round, opening porthole window on their storm doors while the R-21s and R-22s had drop sash windows. One other minor difference was the absence of the side knockout glass panels on the R-21s. Finally, IIRC, the cab door on the R-21s was hinged on the opposite end when compared to the R-17s.
Mechanically and electrically, they were identical.
Whew, I had to go some to find any mechanical and/or electrical differences between the R-17 and R-21. The only ones I could find is a slight difference in the group switch boxes (both GE & Westinghouse versions) between the R-17 and R-21s. The only other difference listed was that the R-21s had overhead heat added to the under-seat heaters present on both models. Otherwise, you were absolutely correct.
This is not commercially motivated since my sets are not for sale. However, for anyone interested, there are 2 MTH Subway sets for sale today on EBAY. One is the E train version with horn only. The other is the much rarer D train version with Proto-sound. item #s are 325511117 & 325541799 OR you can simply type in "MTH Subway" in the search box. Be warned, I may be bidding on the latter.
Pretty expensive for a model but they sound like good ones.
I wonder if they're going to make an R40...
Wayne
If I had any influence witht he good people at MTH I'd try to persuade them that the next model be R-36 Worlds Fair cars in the original paint scheme. I like the IRT cars simply because the dimentions used by MTH is exactly scale for the IRT but a bit off for the B division.
As far as expense, it's all relative. To finance my new O gauge railroad, I sold my N scale equipment. If you can believe that one N scale boxcar (plastic) was sold by me for more than $85.00, I suppose $50 - $75 for an O scale car is reasonable.
By the way, based on the success that MTH is having in the Rapid Transit market, K-Line says it's also considering marketing NYCT O Scale equipment.
I'd have to scrap everything I have, buildings included, to start up an O27 railway. Everything I own is HO gauge.
Does MTH make any HO equipment?
Wayne
No, they're strictly a Lionel competitor. There IS some nice subway stuff in HO from MTS Imports though. Of course, it makes MTH look cheap.
BTW, did you get the email I sent you this morning regarding decorative tiles?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm still waiting for them to come out with S gauge subway equipment.:-)
You ought to compare notes with "bigedirtmanl" on this board, he has been an S gauge NYC transit car builder for many years. I've seen a lot of pictures of his work over the years, and they look pretty darn good to me!
Yes they're all active.
4824-4825 was on the "RR" when originally delivered.
4904-4905 was shared by the "KK" and "LL" when originally delivered.
4600-4601 (mentioned as an add-on) was shared by the "A", "AA" and "B" when originally delivered.
Wayne
Thanks again Wayne, you and I were apparently posting at the exact same time!
Well Karl, if you enjoyed that, wait until the R-21 set arrives on a doorstep near you. The proto sounds are provided by a retired SMEE Car, Branford's R-17. Hey, I might go out and purchase an MTH set.
Regards,
Stef
Stef, if you have any intention of buying an R-21 set, I sure hope you have your order in with a dealer. All of the trains made today seem to be limited edition, and if you don't order when they are announced, you may wound up having to pay secondary market prices.
Stef, I'm counting on you to let me know immediately when MTH comes up there to record the sounds of 1227! Now that would be a set that I would take out another mortgage to buy. I wonder if they would put door chimes on that sound chip! :)
You'll be the first to know.The guy with the recording equipment intends to use the sounds of R-9 #1689, for their GG1 model also due out at sometime.
-Stef
That ought to be something, an R-9 posing as a GG-1!
Is it true that the voice making the station announcements on the D Train belongs to one of your fellow members at BERA?
from studying some of the posts here over the last week or so, i have concluded that all of the people here have been replaced by exact replicas...
there used to be occasional spurts of humor, but now it's grim business...
just last night my seed pod came to life, and now i am just a shell of myself...
what time do we meet by the town square tomorrow morning to receive more pods for the rest of the town?
10:54am I shall be there, and I myself will sound the Main Siren.
wayne [mr R40M]
............be sure that the "" transverse cab car club members "" recieves thier pods first do not miss a single member !!
do not get too complacent salaam... we are just about finished with all the railfan window photographers... i have seen several of them riding on the subway staring at the ads for vocational schools...
ok ...........i understand.....................!!!!
please respond to you two posts on us-talk and greyhound-express I have several posts I would
like for you to answer !! ........... finally the transverse cab car club knows only one thing......""dummy up""
thanks for the info wayne...
what got me to suspect that the railfans have been replaced by replicas was riding with several groups of railfans on the hblr... rarely did anyone look out the front window... they were all busy planning distribution of more pods
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
You're Next!!!
The meeting place for distribution of pods has changed. It will now be at the unused center platform of the 59th st IND station. Time: 3:20am saturday May 13th. Pods will be distributed from flatcars being pulled by an r-127.......
If you miss that one, the next will be 4:10AM Monday May 15th, upper level, Wilson Avenue station on the "L". Look for a train of local work motors pulled by revenue cars #4444-4445
............
Anybody know when the Hoboken Transit Festival will be this year?
PLEASE don't say the weekend of May 20th. If it is, don't bother posting it (for my benefit), because I will be on a band trip that weekend to Mystic, Conn, and knowing that the festival is going on while I'm there will be torture.
In Philadelphia, my organization, the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passangers is debating over whether a 62 mile railroad should use dual mode locomotives, or electrify and use EMUs. As of now, all commuter services in Philadelphia are ac catenary electric. Some members say that an ac catenary/diesel locomotive can readily be made, others say it cannot. What do you think about this?
Some members say that it is inefficient with operating to have a locomotive pull less than 5 coaches, and say that a locomotive should not pull 2 or less, whereas others say that operating costs from dual mode and all electric will be within 2% of each other. What do you think?
The cost differential I'm not qualified to comment on, not having the figures at my disposal. But I can state that, with the advent of practical AC traction motors, it is possible to have a dual-mode locomotive utilizing overhead AC power. (It was possible before, actually, but would have been ridiculously costly; now that factor is gone.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would prefer to see the Harrisburg Line electrified to Reading and run with a combinations of electric locomotive hauled and EMU trains. However that's just the railfan in me talking and I know that such a plan would be cost prohibitive. Probably the way to go it with dual-modes with plans to eventually electrify the route (thus freeing up the DM's for another service extention). NJT runs 3 car trains on the Atlantic City line and they've had no problems with it. Many studies have shown that push/pull operations (probably > 3 cars) are much cheaper than MU's. After all most of the maintainence items are affiliated with moving the train. Why have more sets of motors/transformers/control equipment that can fail? I'd say use the Dual Modes and save the electrifacation for the extention to Quakertown. Then as time passes you can electrify to Pottstown and then all the way to Reading. At which point the DM's can be switched to Allentown-Philly service or maybe on to the Newton line.
I rode HBLR yesterday after work to the Martin Luther King Drive stop to plunk down some bucks on the $220 million lotto (that is now something like $300 million).
Anyhow, I think I'll be riding over there again -- or at least to visit Exchange Place -- to play in Tuesday night's game.
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry, Doug, but I'll be winning that $300 million on tues.
...no problem Rob....WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!!!!! Heh, heh, heh!
Ummm, sorry, Rob, but I already have the winning numbers for Tuesday's game :)
--Mark
Does anybody know why on these subway cars fleet when you want to walk between cars why are those doors on those trains are locked at all times. If you know write to me.
This has been discussed many times here. The end doors are kept locked between the cars because on a sharp curve or while going over switches, the cars move in such a way that you can be swept off if you are caught between cars. Simply put, it's for safety.
The longer 75-foot cars basically require a wider turning radius than the 60-foot cars on the BMT and IND lines, or the IRT's 51-footers. The larger radius means there's a wider gap between the cars on turns of up to 90 degrees, and a sharper `whip-around' from one direction to the other on S curves like the one between City Hall and Cortlandt Street on the N/R.
It will be intersting to see whether or not the doors between cars on the new 60-foot R-143s will be opened when they go into service a few years from now.
Hmm... are the storm doors on the R110B unlocked?
I would hope so. If my memory serves me, the "standards" had theirs locked.
avid
Hate to disappoint you, but they're LOCKED! Just like on the 75-footers. So far, the R110B and the R68(a) are the only groups of in-service cars I haven't walked between.
I'm not disappointed, I thought I was saying I thought they should be locked. I, m not so good sometimes for the grammar.
Yes the doors should be locked on any cars 67ft and longer!
Unless your selling batterys and Yo-Yos .
avid
I remember being on a train once whose rear storm door of the car I was riding in kept opening and closing, back and forth, back and forth. It was somewhere in the middle of the train, not the first or last car. I'm tempted to say it was the 14th St. tunnel, and am really tempted to say it was on a train of BMT standards, powered storm doors and all. After all, I distinctly remember the bull and pinion gears droning at about a half step above middle C while all this was going on.
per official AFC Bulletin. Goes on sale 5/15/2000 at 7am. Stations are gruoped to save space. Of course- it depends on the cards being actually delivered to these booths which is beyond our control!
Prince-N,R
Canal- J,M,N,R,Z,6, A,C,E
City Hall- N,R
Whjitehall- N,R
Fulton/Broadway-Nassau-2,3,4,5,6,A,C,E,J,M,Z
51/Lex- 6, E,F
Bway/Laffayette/Bleecker- 6,B,D,F,Q
S Ferry- 1.9
Cortlandt- 1,9
Christopher- 1,9
79-1,9
86-1,9
Wall- 4,5
Spring- 6
Astor- 6
23-6
28-6
77-6
96-6
Two more "flavors" go on sales at 0700 on/15/2000.
variety A (original) is "Tel Avciv 9 Cents"
Version B is "Ireland 9 cents" and Version C is "China 37 cents".
I am grouping stations for each card.
*****Version B- Ireland***
36-G,R
Steinway,46,65- G,R
Roosevelt/74- E,F,G,R,7
75av- F
21/Queensbridge- Q
36/Washington- N
Broadway-N
30/Grand- N
Astoria Blvd/Hoyt- N
Ditmars-N
33 to 52- 7
69-7
82-7
******Version C- China*****
53-R
9 av-B
Ft Hamilton- B
50,55-B
20 av-B
25 av-B
Elmhurst, Grand, Woodhaven- G,R
90-7
Jct Blvd-7
103-7
111-7
Willets Pt-7
Main Street-7
Yes, you all heard I am running for MTA President. If you elect me or write enough letters to the governor, I will guarantee the return of the railfan window, higher speeds on the express runs, that the redbirds will make it to 50 years old, nicer station, more trains per hour. Also I need a vice president, who will help me?
I will help!
After that I will overthrow you in a bloodless coup (or if that doesn't work, a bloody coup). Every train will be retrofitted with special chairs designed exclusively for the pig. Except for the Redbirds which will all be scrapped. The Second Avenue subway will be built just as I mentioned (with express tracks, surrounded by sound insulated walls). Pigs will ride free, and so will four humans travelling with any pig.
Then, when it is time for the PIGVOLUTION (which will not be televised), the subways will be closed in order to hinder human commerce and be used to transport weapigry for use by the hooved forces.
Although since the Yuppigs (Young Urban Pigs) have taken control of the Boarsheviks, don't expect the pigvolution to come anytime soon.
The OLORI Board and the POLORI board (I work with both) have endorsed heypaul as the candidate for Senate. The Willingdon Memorial Institute has failed to endorse a candidate.
I Support the PIGVOLUTION, humans have messed the world up so bad that I sing "All we are saying is give pigs a chance".
8->
..........now folks dont feel bad !! I nominated myself for worst subtalker - posted and lost hands down to
candidate mr pig who won that election. Since he now has more experence in subtalk politics and I dont etc.
I couldnt even win the ultimate contest on subtalk as worst subtalkrer - poster so I third the nomination
for the ""PIGVOLUTION" nomination for highest possibe office.........
be sure you vote for him at the next election for president of the MTA mr subway of new york city !!
by the way what party are you running with ??? democrat or republican or independent or reform party ??
Beasts of the IRT, beasts of the BMT
Beasts of every tunnel size
Hearken to my joyful tidings
Of a steel-wheeled future timeŠ
....... I resign form all subtalk politics lost the last election hands down just like the film
vidieo annimal farm ..........vote for pigs .....
There is no such position as "MTA President." The MTA has a Chair, and each operating agency (such as NYCT or LIRR) has a President. None of these positions are elected.
David
So, this morning I woke up and since it was so hot today, I thought I'd go railfaning. After many transfers and hours of riding I was going home. I live at Brighton Beach and was at West 4th Street. I wanted to take the long way home so I toke the B Train. Luck me, the R40 B Train pulled into the station and no one was at the window. The window was mine all the way to Coney Island. The train got up to 36 Street and the signal was set for 59 Street. We got to 59 Street and the C/R told the train that we were making all stops on the N Line to Coney Island. So, on the ride to Coney Island, I saw a North-Bound N Train on the Express Track stopped at a home signal near 8th Avenue with the T/O stepping on the trip arm. I was thinking to myself, why was a N Train on the express? I thought it was another GO. The train continued onto 28 Avenue. There, a R32 N Train was stopped between stations with workers all over the train. I thought it ran over someone. I then saw workers pulling a bike from under the wheels. I got off at Bay Parkway and there was the N Train stuck behind it. I asked some of the people on the train how long they've been there. They said for 30 minutes. I looked at my watch and it was 4:00. The AC on the train kept turning on and off (a sign that power to the 3rd Rail was turned off). So... in conclusion,
1) Train runs over bike
2) Trains behind jammed
3) Trains re-routed to the express tracks
4) Express track home signal malfunctions
5) Trains behind jammed
6) B Train that was supposed to run on express track, runs local
What a great day, I finally get a R40 on the Sea Beack express, it runs local. How was your day?
man !! that would have been a good vidieo to shoot !! wish i could have ben there to shoot this with you !!
Yep, you can only get a full perspective of whats going on with a railfan window.
There is no 28th Ave on the Sea Beach, Bay Pkwy is 22nd Ave, and there the Trains South between West 7th and 8th Sts. The West End Crosses 28th Ave by the Bay 50th St Station(Bay 48 St is 28th Ave)
Oy!!! I got mixed up. I accidently crossed 18th and 20th. It was 20 Avenue. It ran over the bike right before 20th Avenue.
Those overpasses are inviting places for vandals to dump things on the rails.
Back in 1977 I was on my way out to CI via "N" train. Our R46 train stopped somewhere around Fort Hamilton Parkway. Since I was up front, I got to see what was causing the problem. Someone had dropped a couple of toilet bowls onto the tracks. They broke, but the motorman stopped because there were large pieces in the way.
Wayne
Probably some jealous Brighton Beach ruffian. Maybe Bob can tell us who it was. BTW, someone on this website is getting tired of seeing BB vs SB arguments breaking our all over. How significant is this? I can't even remember the guy's name. That how.
05/08/2000
Sorry Fred, I don't think some ruffian fro the Brighton Line dropped that bicycle on the tracks. Besides, why would he waste his time traveling over to the Sea Beach when he could be flying up the Brighton on a true express!
"Bad day on the Sea Beach" ?? sounds that old film with Spencer Tracy and Ernest Borgnine, "Bad day at Black Rock". My favorite scene was when Ernest was harrassing Spencer by dumping ketchup (or catsup) on his chili. Since Hollywood has a knack for reviving old classic films with disasterous results, maybe they can revive "Bad Day at Black Rock".
A revival would show Sea Beach Fred arriving at Black Rock on a train of D-types pulled by FL-9's! A few scenes later, the town suspicious of Fred's arrival witness local bully Brighton Beach Bob who saunters into the local greasy spoon where Fred is about to down some hot chili. Brighton Beach Bob obviously agitated with Fred's silence dumps a load of catsup (ketchup) and speaks these immortal words:
"HEY STRANGER......I HEAR THIS IS HOW THEY SERVE CHILI IN ARCADIA!!"
Now if I can get ahold of Spike Lee, maybe we can get this cinematic tour de force off the ground.
Bill Newkirk
LOL
Of Course the station would be Kings Highway, and why am I the Bully? Fred only traveled the Slow Beach to see his grandma, So he was a part time user. Whenever I traveled on the subway. I ALWAYS used the Brighton, it was 7 short blocks from my house. I always had to have a window seat at Dubrows so i can see the trains.
05/08/2000
Bob,
Kings Highway was one brighton express stop from Newkirk Avenue, home of Newkirk Plaza and DeSica's Pizzeria. Where you could get a slice of pizza for 15 cents and a Coke for 10 cents (circa 1961). That's lunch for a quarter! Add 10 cents for an italian ice for dessert!
Bill Newkirk
And you guys talk about me living in the past. Tell me Bill, were you a Brooklynite who rooted for the Yankees when the Dodgers played there? No wonder they left for Los Angeles. Apack of traitors living in their midst and rooting for the US Steel Yankees. Disgusting!!!
Yeh, and you still have the Dodgers 20 miles from your place
05/09/2000
[And you guys talk about me living in the past. Tell me Bill, were you a Brooklynite who rooted for the Yankees when the Dodgers played there? No wonder they left for Los Angeles. Apack of traitors living in their midst and rooting for the US Steel Yankees. Disgusting!!! ]
No Fred, the Bronx to me was a foreign country back then! I am from a family of Brooklyn Dodger fans and although very young, I have no memories of when I was taken to Ebbets Field. After the Dodgers were kidnapped we like many other Brooklyniets were in mourning until the Mets made their appearance in 1962. No, we didn't root for the Giants either. To keep this on topic (trains), I remember at the Prospect Park station the original large porcelain free standing sign that said "Prospect Park" had a smaller sign above that was painted over that had the markings "Ebbets Field". Those signs are gone since the TA put up the familiar black and white ones there today.
Bill Newkirk
Well Bill I'm glad you weren't a Yankee fan. I hope you aren't one today either. I like the Mets even though I live in California. I never took to the Dodgers when they came out here. For some reason I didn't think of them as MY team anymore. Bob will jump out of his seat but my favorite station in the whole NYC subway system was always Prospect Park Station when I was a kid. It meant that we were coming out of the tunnel into God's own sunshine and a trip to see the Dodgers at Ebbets Field. Those are my most pleasant memories, and yes, unfortunately, it had to be on the Brighton.
05/10/2000
Well the Prospect Park station should be your favorite, since the concrete wall design is identical to the Sea Beach from Prospect to Church Ave.
Bill Newkirk
Yeh, but we had Beladonna Pizza on KH and E 19th plus Cone s Candy Dtore, Pizza 15 cents and coke/egg cream 10 cents also, plus the Brighton was elevated so you can stand outside turn west 2 1/2 blocks and watch the Standards and Triplex going by.
05/09/2000
[Yeh, but we had Beladonna Pizza on KH and E 19th plus Cone s Candy Dtore, Pizza 15 cents and coke/egg cream 10 cents also, plus the Brighton was elevated so you can stand outside turn west 2 1/2 blocks and watch the Standards and Triplex going by.]
So I was right Bob, you could get a lunch for a quarter! At the "Plaza" was Paul's Barber shop where as a young boy I got my hair cut. On a warm day, Paul (since deceased) would prop open the door and I could hear the sound of the bull and pinion gears of the Standards and D-types down below.I still get my hair cut there till this day even though I moved out the neighborhood in 1972! The thing is on a warm day with the door propped open I now hear the whining deceleration sound of the R-68's (sigh!).
Bill Newkirk
Now am I starting a Kings Hwy Newkirk Ave feud. Hope not
05/09/2000
[Now am I starting a Kings Hwy Newkirk Ave feud. Hope not]
No fued here Bob, just waxing nostalgic on the old Brighton Line!
Bill Newkirk
Sounds good to me Bill. But if I remember correctly, one armed Spencer Tracy grabs bully boy Ernest and twists his arm into a pretzel. Can I get to do that to my buddy Bob. After all, if I play Spencer's part I'm the good guy. And I promise not to be too rough on my friend. BTW, you can play Robert Ryan, the cowardly leader who gets his just desserts at the end. But I can put in a good word and make you one of the good guys if you want to be with the winners.
05/09/2000
Consider that in the script, Fred. We'll make you a star!
Bill Newkirk
OK!! Now if we can get ahold of Spike Lee, we're in business. I will even try to get a part of Salaam so this film is brought up to date as an equal opportunity employer, but Salaam will have to play a heavy since there are more parts for them than good guys. Do you think BX55 would be willing to play Anne Francis' part? One more thing. I have to be motoring that Triplex #4 Sea Beach train when I come roaring into town. Is it a deal?
Well, you could take a crash course on 6095 at the Transit Museum - signed up as 4, of course.
05/10/2000
It's a deal Fred! As long as we leave a bit part for Jeff Rosen as the town Sheriff! Now what part would heypaul play? I don't remember any scenes with a partial R-9 cab mockup inside.......Hmmmm !
Bill Newkirk
I can make you happy:
I drove under the Brighton line on the Belt Parkway and went on to ride the Sea Beach from 86th Street, although Manhattan-bound trains were running express which meant I had to go one stop to Coney Island to go non-stop to 59th. BTW, that was a slow and awful express run as far as express runs go.
Will they be doing that mid day on Thursday?
When I become President of the United States, I will change all that by Executive Order 44 ( my favorite number) which will make the Sea Beach completely express in both Brooklyn and Manhattan. I can dream can't I. But since you rode my train, I will make you an honorary member of the Sea Beach fan club.
Probably some jealous Brighton Beach ruffian. Maybe Bob can tell us who it was. BTW, someone on this website is getting tired of seeing BB vs SB arguments breaking our all over. How significant is this? I can't even remember the guy's name. That's how.
Why waste a good bike on the Sea Beach anyway
If you stood on a trip stop, wouldn't it just pop back up?
If it remains in "red" yes.
However, I once was riding a Canarsie bound "L" train when we came upon a red signal -- south of New Lots as the train left the elevated and entered grade operation. We were there for quite a while. The T/O radioed Command. His response from C/D was that the signal was malfunctioning and that he should override the trip-feature. I was at the railfan window and had to move out of the way as the T/O went down to the roadbed. He pushed the trip arm down and used a "hook" (attached to the tie) to secure the trip arm in the "green" position.
We then proceeded to 105th Street.
Doug aka BMTman
It happened once when I was on a Q Train while it was entering DeKalb Avenue. The home signal in front of us didn't clear but the one after it cleared and the T/O knew something was wrong because the signals were timed. On that incident, not even the call-on worked.
All I can say is that I'm glad the Sea Beach wasn't the only line that happened to. I might have become suspicious. However, we can all agree that those perps who did that crap are idiots.
so....every trip arm has a hook nearby on a tie?
.....I would like to vote for downtown Detroit where a short non transit related etc....
""TOKEN TROLLEY RIDE "" operates on a line shorter than the useless DPM the dertoit people mover !!!
i mean its cute a short loop downtown in ONE section of downtown only and not even as long as some
transit museums ... One in Illinois got this one beat !!....
The other is the infamous downtown new orleans "" streetcar named desire "" cute and a nice piece of history etc..
but not much else !! .....like in los angeles i nominate the unidentified useless GREEN-LINE......
Hell !! it doesnt even go into the Los Angeles airport ( LAX) .......!!!
Why not have both a museum trolley ride and one who takes care of business as well ??
I guess that is too much to ask !! any other nominations in other cities and your answer is ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________!!!
please fill in the blank space thank you ..!
Charlotte, North Carolina - a mere one-quarter mile of track, which might eventually serve an antique shop or two if they can extend it another quarter mile.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
what are they going to run on that ""token track""...?? and did they say what kind of trolley cars old or new ??
example ; in dowtown los angeles some kind of token pacific electric red car re-creation was proposed etc...
where is it now ??............hold your breath ...!!!
I stand corrected - there's only a few hundred feet of wire but they are now running 1.8 miles, using a towed diesel generator. I haven't been there in several years.
Here's some websites with more information:
Rail Transit in Charlotte
Charlotte Trolley
A Brief History of Streetcars in Charlotte
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
......thank you very nice sites !!!
I don't know why I'm bothering, but...
The New Orleans operation is meant only as a tourist line, and not as a mass transit line. If it were meant to be a mass transit line, they wouldn't be building Peter Witt cars.
-Hank
fine a tourist attraction is ok but a tram or light rail that serves the people is better !
What annoys me much more than the token trolleys which run on a short segment of track downtown as you said, is where the token trolley is a bus/truck with a custom body that tries to look like a trolley out of the end of the 19th century.
There's some outfit that owns a couple (I've counted two so far) of these junkers in Toronto, and runs them around giving tours. The tours focus on downtown Toronto, and the nearby areas - which is where the bulk of the streetcar network is located. Everywhere their tacky little tour bus-attempt-at-a-trolley goes can be gotten to on a real streetcar.
This really irritates me because they use the bus pretending to be a streetcar when they could use the genuine article if they were to make the necessary arrangements with the TTC. However, since they haven't, and prefer to use their own vehicles, the TTC's small fleet of historic PCCs spends most of its time sitting at one of the carhouses waiting to be used on charters or the occasional special event, while the PCCs could be put to very good use as tour vehicles on the TTC's extensive downtown streetcar network.
I've heard several accounts of people attending PCC charters opening the windows right up and leaning out as the PCC passes one of the tour "trolleys" and shouting at the people on it "GET A REAL STREETCAR!" I've never done this myself, although I will admit I've been very tempted, but I wish they would take that advice and dump their sorry excuse of a token trolley that doesn't even run on track in favour of a proper streetcar.
-Robert King
I must differ with your complaint about the 15-mile long LA Green line. Yes, there is a problem with it not going into LAX Airport itself. However, I'll bet that the people who live near it between Norwalk and El Segundo do not consider it useless. By your thinking the #7 train in NYC is "useless" because it does not go to LaGuardia. Or the Blue Line in Boston is "useless" because one has to take a five-minute bus ride to Logan (similar to the 5-minute bus ride from the Green Line into LAX). And the Harlem Branch of the Metro North Line does not stop at White Plains Airport (Oh no....) :-)
if you look at the los angeles gren line on this page...( sorry I do not have a scanner I would post it here )....
at what if you look at the green line photos in the la section.....( some of which i took etc..)
check out how the tracks stop on thier way to ( LAX ) the los angeles international airport `. There is a
break away section that was killed by the taxi and shuttle bus industries as they feared loss of money if
the gren line rail runs all the way into the airport as it was planned originally ...!
the green line uses ONE CAR only even during rush hours !! why is that still being done ?
these so called transit agencies do what they want to do . example : atlanta and washington dc...
they shure got it right there so why could the MTA in los angeles do the same ??
all rail systems should serve airports, even St Louis light rail serves the airport !!
I remember in the film DIE HARD 3 there alot of changes on the R30 subway cars in the scene why did they have to do different changes.
Some of the R30 cars in Die Hard 3: With A Vengeance were not REAL R30's. There were about a dozen REAL ones shipped out to Los Angeles and then another handful were made in the studios.
The "subway" in this movie was also in Los Angeles; it was a fake one constructed on a former Southern Pacific railroad yard just north of downtown Los Angeles. (It was also used to film "Money Train".) It is no longer there as the property has been sold and is undergoing commercial development.
The fake cars look almost like the real ones, except that they have left-side (i.e. "railfan") windows at the ends of the cars; they also have an additional passenger window at the left front/right rear corners.
While the movie depicts a lot of car "8408", recent posts have made me wonder if ANY of the car numbers shown in the movie were the real ones or if the plates were switched. I went to a Warner Bros. backlot in Glendale, just outside of Los Angeles, and there were four real R-27/30's there -- one of them was numbered "8401", but someone else reported that the REAL 8401 is still at Coney Island Yard being used for fire training purposes. The inside of the motorman's cab door on the car "8401" in Glendale, CA shows "8 97" (note: one digit is missing....looked to be either an 0, 2, or 3 as the rounded top is still there.)
#8408 & #8322 show in the movies called "End of Days" They show real inside the cars but outside the cars show #7818???? I hate the way they make the movies in diffirent cars & number while making in New York City.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
You want a bad subway movie see Stigmata:
Opening shot, some R-30's rounding a curve
Inside shot - some set that looks NOTHING LIKE any car in exsitance
Outside shot - The front of the MONEY TRAIN!!!
Another inside shot - same
Outside shot - same front shot of the MONEY TRAIN!!!
Inside - shot of train as eveyone gets thrown back of forth, even thoe the next shot shows them going straight
Outside shot - Shot of ANOTHER R-30 going STRAIGHT
Inside Shot - more throwning about
Outside Shot - The Money Train bleeding it's breaks
Another outside shot - from the 'Money Train' movie of an R-22 pulling into a station.
Closing shot - The actors get off of a train that looks nothing like any train in exsitance.
I dare anybody to find a worst subway sceen that that!
That movie's producers did what is called "let's use subway footage from some other movie, so we don't have to spend a fortune filming it ourselves" copout.
Doug aka BMTman
There was an R-22 in 'Money Train!!'(other than 51050)
...and it all takes place in PITTSBURGH...
Which one would you prefer to ride on and or operate ?? which one do you think is the better than the other
and or both ?? I thougnt San Francisos tfrolley bus system was prety good and they still had trolleys !!
Each has its benefits and its drawbacks. Light rail is higher capacity and uses less fuel per passenger mile when filled to nominal capacity than a trolley bus, and the rail cars last considerably longer with normal maintenance than a trolley bus does. The trolley bus can manuever around obstacles in mixed traffic to a limited extent, is more suited to lightly-travelled lines (it's sort of like a Birney car, as compared to a standard light rail vehicle), has less fixed equipment than a light rail vehicle (although the difference isn't as great as it seems, since there is twice as much overhead wire), and can be rerouted at a lower construction cost than light rail. As a simple personal preference I like trolleys/light rail better, but I'd rather see a trolley bus than a diesel bus.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Light rail is higher capacity and uses less fuel per passenger mile when filled to nominal capacity than a trolley bus]
Aren't light rail and trolley buses elctric? What fuel are you talking about?
Daniel
I assume electricity is made by little gnomes pedaling bicycles.
trolley buses ( no diesel or gas engine ) are all electric just like trolley rail however two pickup wires
are overhead on the trolley bus i believe trolley or so called light rail has one pick up wire overhead
and the tracks are the other electric conductor to the all electric system....
now do i have this right or wrong folks and if i am wrong no problem point this out to me !!!
That's usually correct. There are some trolley/light-rail systems - none that are currently operating in the US, AFAIK - that use the two-wire overhead also rather than using the rails as the return. Why I don't know, although it does eliminate the expense of rail bonding; possibly it's to allow joint service on tracks used by heavy freight in the off hours, where rail bonds would get broken more easily, or possibly it's to allow joint trolley/ETB operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Certain soil condiions can be handled better with a double overhead wire.
like parts of tne marina sections of san francisco .........
I thought that might be the case also, but I wasn't sure - high water table, high iron content, or what?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Cincinnati I believe used double overhead as the city lies in a high water table area(flood plain). As to the fuel issue SF MUNI is in theory powered by hydro--but in the end all electricity generation has some 'pollution cost'--ask the salmon.
Some soils are very conductive to electricity. Has to do with the PH and other minerals in the earth and how it reacts to electricity.
In Cincinatti, I have been told that the requirement had more to do with the water utility and protecting their water pipes. They had the city pass an ordiance within the city that required two poles. Out in the fringes (out of the city) they operated on some track with single overhead.
Someone else may know more of the technical details.
No, the two-wire system used in Cincinatti was the result of a predecessor company that was sued by a telephone company due to interference caused by both companies using a ground return. The decision in favor of the telephone company, requiring the streetcar company to use a two-wire system and not a ground return was made by Ohio Supreme Justice William Howard Taft. The decision was later overturned by a Federal Court, but that time the double wire system was universal in Cincinatti.
As an aside, the wire "gauge" in Cincinatti was 18 inches, while standard trolley couch gauge was 24 inches. Cincinatti Street Railway used it's ready made TC wire by running TC's on charters in streetcar only territory. The only problem with these operations was that a supervisor had to follow the coach in order to guide the poles through streetcar wire frogs to guide the poles in the right direction.
Thanks for the info. I knew it had something to do with utilities but the the whole story.
An unmentioned comparison is performance. Part of the reason for the proliferation of trolleybuses in San Francisco is the great accelleration and hill climbing ability of the trolleybuses - far better than either diesel buses or streetcars.
You are right. Seattle had the same experience. Rubber tires will handle a much larger grade than steel wheels. The high torque of the electric motors is impressive when I ride the trolley buses in San Francisco. Trolley wire is also much cheaper than maintaining cable car infrastructure to operate over the hills.
I had a strange and somewhat frustrating experience on the subway this past Tuesday.
I was on the platform of the Brooklyn-bound Sixth Avenue Subway at the 34th Street station. I noticed an R train (of R-32 cars, mind you!) on the express track. For a moment, I thought I was on the wrong platform, but I looked at the signs above the platform and saw that I was right. I got on the train, and the conductor said that it was an R train to Brooklyn going express on the Sixth Avenue line. I stayed on the train. It went express, and it even skipped Broadway-Lafayette!
Here is the frustrating part. At Grand Street, the conductor said the next stop would be Dekalb Avenue, so I figured I would transfer to a D or Q train there. However, after going over the Manhattan Bridge, the train stopped for a while, and then the conductor said the next stop would be Pacific Street! It skipped Dekalb Avenue, so I couldn't get off there. It went to Pacific Street. There, I saw a regular R train on the local track that was about to leave, so rather than walking all the way across to Atlantic Avenue, I got on the other R train and took it to the F train at 9th Street. (Fortunately, the F train skipped a few stops. The othere R train seemed to have gone express, but I don't know how it went after that.)
Why did this R train go the wrong way, and why did the conductor say it would stop at Dekalb Avenue when it didn't?
Why was it on the 6th Ave line in the first place? There was probably a problem with a train already in the station at Dekalb, or somewhere between Dekalb and the jct where the bypass track splits off. Not all that unusual. Happens on the 6th Ave and CPW lines all the time. I was on a D train that entered 59st on the local track, then crossed over after the station.
-Hank
The R train was probably rerouted because of a delay or obstruction on the Broadway line. As for it skipping Dekalb when the conductor said it wouldn't, I'm guessing the conductor assumed it would. For the R train to run local south of Pacific, it would have to stop at Dekalb, as the bypass tracks don't connect to the 4th Ave. local tracks. Since the train skipped Bway Laffayette as well, I'm assuming the train was so late that it ran express all the way to 59th.
Usually, when there are problems on the Broadway N and R lines going into Manhattan from Queens, the R is rerouted from it's regular route over the F line to Broadway-Lafayette, then over the Manhattan Bridge on the D and B lines to DeKalb Avenue where it resumes normal service to Bay Ridge. I cannot explain why it did not stop at Bway-Laf, because technically, it should have. But I can explain to you why it skipped DeKalb Avenue. At Grand Street, the motorman must punch in the train's identification so that it will be routed properly. Because it was an R train, the motorman had to punch the button for the B line so that he would be routed over the 4th Avenue Line and not the Brighton Line, which is for the D. B trains do not stop at DeKalb Avenue; they go straight to Pacific Street. Because there is no switch to cross over to the local tracks from the express at Pacific (but there is from local to express, which is how N trains get to go express from Pacific to 59th), the R wound up going express from Pacific.
Whew! That was a mouthful!
He could have punched the N lineup or punched the D lineup and then punch the 4th Avenue Local lineup at DeKalb.
No N lineup at Grand St. There's a lineup for the Brighton and for the 4th Ave Line. That's the jct at the Brooklyn end of the Manhattan Bridge. That puch is currently set to route all Brighton trains to the outside platform, and all 4th Ave trains to the bypass track. Makes sense, because the B NEVER stops at Dekalb. At Dekalb, there's a punch on the outside platform for 4th Ave Local, 4th Ave Express, or Brighton; on the inner track, there's a punch for Brighton and a punch for 4th Ave Local and Express.
-Hank
Of course there is... the punches are BDQN but I doubt it's in that order but there is. Go to Grand Street's southbound platform and look at the punch box at the 10-car train marker. It's there.
A true railfan would not be complaining.
[ A true railfan would not be complaining. ]
I wasn't complaining about the rerouted R train. I was complaining that the conductor said it would stop at Dekalb Avenue when it wasn't going to, causing some inconvenience for me and probably others. Besides, if I weren't a railfan, I probably wouldn't have taken the R train in the first place!
By the way, does anyone have any specific knowledge of what happened with he train that I was referring to?
I'm a railfan and I detest the R. When I stayed at the Pan American Inn last summer, the Grand Avenue Station featured the R and G trains. I would take the G to Queens Plaza and then change to the N at the station and pay the extra $1.50 to avoid riding the R. Of course, I had a little extra scratch with me but you get the idea. The only time I rode the R was to finally reach 95th Street and see what it looked like. The worst station of the bunch, a turkish bath. But when I climbed to the street there was a Baskin-Robbins at the corner. That was a relief, but I still had to take the R back to 59th Street before I could rise another train back. That was pure hell.
The R can't be that bad! Yes it's local, may be a little slow because of the stops, but it has one of the best-looking car fleets around. The line is very demanding along the Queens Blvd portion (can't wait untii the 63 St connector opens!). You don't have to take the R if you don't want to, but if it's only a few local stops from Queens Blvd or Roosevelt to Grand it couldn't hurt.
You could have taken th B-64 to Coney Island on 86th St and catch the N there, or the B16 to 62nd
I took the R twice last year. One from 63rd Drive Rego Park, to Jackson Hts, to catch the F, and from Cortland Street(WTC) to DeKalb to catch the Brighton. If the N came along first I might have lowered myself to do that also
I heard every word of that Bob. I'm happy you didn't have to "lower" yourself and take the "N", although, unknown to you if would have injected you with a new burst of class.
95th Street gets a zero for liveability because there are R46s idling there all the time, throwing off gobs of heat. The station itself is small and there's no circulation.
One of the nice features at 95th Street is the Globe frieze and wall tablets, which are all in pretty good condition, especially in the ambiently-lit mezzanine. They're light brown in the center with dark blue, light blue and maroon trim, with yellow globes. Pretty sharp-looking.
Wayne
This isn't really true. The train could have simply punched the D/Q button and then punched the "R" button at Dekalb. I've witnessed this and I've ridden these re-routed R trains. They almost always stop at Dekalb. Some "B" trains stop at Dekalb anyway.
I was once on a B that stopped at DeKalb. It happens.
We are all talking about Punching this and Punching that, someone at Dekalb Tower could have rerouted (over ridden) whatever the T/O punched.
I will agree that there are times when the B does stop at DeKalb Avenue, but that is only when cold weather plans are in effect (during the winter months), there is a general order in effect, or if there's a delay in the D service to/from Manhattan. However, under normal circumstances, the B does not stop at DeKalb Avenue.
The R also could have stopped at DeKalb Avenue after punching the D/Q button and then alerted the tower at DeKalb as to its identification.
Good looking out, gentlemen!
Southbound B trains often stop at Dekalb in the early AM, before the Q's reach Brooklyn. I've witnessed these trains a lot....usually before 7 AM.
Reminds me of that misguided
Reminds me of that misguided M train that went up the wrong Broadway.
Are you sure this wasn't on Wednesday? That's when I saw a Bklyn-bound "R" roll throughB'way-Lafayette, but didn't stop...
[Are you sure this wasn't on Wednesday? That's when I saw a Bklyn-bound "R" roll through B'way-Lafayette, but didn't stop... ]
No. It was Tuesday, May 2, approximately 4:00 P.M. I remember because I was trying to get home to celebrate my parents' anniversary. I had just taken a bus with a broken fare collector, so they let us ride for free, which didn't really matter to me anyway since I would have transferred to the subway for free if I did have to pay on the bus. (I had to stop off at the Empire State Building.) But that's another story. Anyway, it was definitely Tuesday. But since you saw the same thing on Wednesday, I'm guessing this is happening more often than I thought. It's like what happened a few years ago when I would see an N Train on the Brighton Line every night at about 9:55 and every weeknight at about 10:20. Why do so many trains regularly go the wrong way? Don't trains have schedules?
An N train on the Brighton line? Uh-oh, don't tell Fred about that.:-)
[ An N train on the Brighton line? Uh-oh, don't tell Fred about that. :-) ]
Not just one. One or two a day regularly for over a year! Am I the only one who noticed it?
One or two A DAY?? Good heavens!:-)
Do they run express or local?
[ One or two A DAY?? Good heavens!:-) ]
Yes, and sometimes more! I know, it was crazy!
[ Do they run express or local? ]
I don't know. I only saw them from my apartment right by the West 8th Street Station. I didn't see where they went from there.
A s/b N rerouted via the brighton line can still reach its scheduled terminal and customers just riding north to reach their stops. N/B N customers for stops from 86th st- dekalb av well thats a different story all together!
From Dennis:
______________________________________________________________________
Dear Lyle:
I never saw this. I couldn't believe that the misguided R train you rode
on the express
track of the 6th Avenue line was an R-32. Was there a big problem on the
Broadway
line that forced this reroute?
However, in 1998, I rode an R-32 R train south from Rockefeller Center to
9th Street due
to an incident. It ran express on 6th Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge to
DeKalb
Avenue, then made regular R stops to 95th Street. The conductor I had,
Jose, is now
on the F train.
What a mess! I was aware of the G.O. and took an N train to Queensboro plaza to get the 7. There was severe crowding there like I never saw before.
The 7 was so packed and there was no more room, so I had to catch the N and take it back to 34th. I found a much better alternate, just to avoid the 7 completely. I took the F to 71st/Continental (which ran local between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt), I wasn't even going to try and catch the 7 up at Roosevelt, lots of people were going up there and I didn't want to be on a packed Redbird with lousy A/C on a hot day like today.
So I got the Q65A and got the Q20A to go back to Flushing. It's longer, but in general a much better way to avoid the G.O.
The buses weren't too crowded, as most people choose to opt for
the 7 train.
What exactly is the reason for this 7 train G.O.? Can't they do this late at night when there are less people using it? The 7 train is quite busy on Saturdays and there should be more options listed by the MTA. People with Pay Per ride Metrocards should get block transfers to use the buses as alternates. Fortunately I had a weekly unlimited Metrocard, otherwise I would've had to take the packed 7 train.
They were pouring concrete under the skeletonized track between Times Sq and Grand Central. Between the pour itself and time allowed for setting up of the concrete, this job takes up an entire weekend.
did they use a concrete pumper upstairs to deliver the concrete and or did they mix it downstairs etc.. ??
Just finished watching the video of "The Astronaut's Wife" with Johnny Depp and Charlize Theron. It wasn't a bad movie, though definitely weird in spots. Its basic plotline was drawn from "Rosemary's Baby," albeit with enough differences to avoid being called a rip-off or anything. Anyway, there were two reasonably lengthy subway scenes. The more important of the two took place at the City Hall station on the N/R, actually on the stairway leading up to the street. The station name is plainly visible near the end of the scene, as are the surrounding streetscape. One possible nitpick is that a metal panelling of some sort covered the railing around one side of the street entrance. The presence of this panelling was crucial to the scene, by preventing one character, who was on the street, from seeing another character, who was on the stairs. I'll have to mosey on by the station to see if there is such a panelling - most similar railings have just the open metal bars. The second scene takes place mainly on what looks like an R32. There are some railfan-window views of the train travelling through the tunnels at what is obviously a much faster speed than trains ever reach.
"Keeping the Faith" also had a few short subway sequences as well, one of which was definitely filmed at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
--Mark
When was that movie made? In their day, the R-32s were speed demons. I once saw a D train of R-32s streak effortlessly past 81st St. It was just as fast as a train of R-10s, minus the thunder. Of course, there's always the possibility that the camera shots looking ahead into the tunnel were filmed at a lower speed, then played back normally. I suspect that's what they did in the original Pelham 1-2-3 as the runaway car races through Spring St. and Canal St.
[When was that movie (The Astronaut's Wife) made? In their day, the R-32s were speed demons. I once saw a D train of R-32s streak effortlessly past 81st St. It was just as fast as a train of R-10s, minus the thunder. Of course, there's always the possibility that the camera shots looking ahead into the tunnel were filmed at a lower speed, then played back normally. I suspect that's what they did in the original Pelham 1-2-3 as the runaway car races through Spring St. and Canal St.]
The movie came out about a year ago, so it probably was filmed within the past couple years or so. I don't know whether the railfan window views were filmed specifically for the movie or simply were stock footage.
Speeds were way beyond anything you'd actually see on the subway. That fits in with the nature of the scene - Charlize Theron's character is dazed and confused, having fled a hospital in fear of her life. Oddly enough, her character was *not* shown at the railfan window.
Why would the work motors R-127 and the R-134 have a front roll sign. All it would ever say would be 'out of service'
What's the point of these signs, and what do they say?
I think they also have signs for
"You're screwed"
and
"Wait some more"
They DO NOT have signs. What you see appears to be a rollsign but, Actuially is a stencil in the window.
That isn't a rollsign, it's right on the window. The reason its there is so that people know it's not a passenger train, and won't attempt to board while the crew picks up the garbage. If it was blank, people wouldn't know what it is.
I really hope that New Yorkers don't need the sign to tell them a train isn't for them but for some, serious mental help is required. While at Times Square on the Northbound express track, two passengers tried to enter my domain. Two yellow work motors without seats and a crane car in the middle. Maybe the signs are necessary.
Its funny how New Yorkers are always in a rush to go no where. Where I work at Mother Hale depot there will be a empty bus with no operator parked engine not running and some genius will run down the block yelling "wait wait!".
Sometimes I give up!
Hmm... no windows? Maybe this is the cure for scratchs on the window... damn!!! Look at all this crap!!!
Mispell... scratchs = scratches
Except for the fact that they are garbage train motors, they are just like R33 singles that look like R62's with one set of doors on each side and no windows. Like the R33 singles, they have no air conditioning.
Exactly... no windows... no scratches. Maybe on the doors if someone has alot of time.
Thinking about deciding either Transport Tycoon or Traffic Giant. Need opinions as to which is better. Thanks, in advance.
Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too. I have told this person to come to the chat on Wednesday to convince us that it is. Please come willing to fight for railfanning not being gay and to show this person they are wrong and we don't critizize their hobbies! Thanks!
I guess you've never seen to original definition of the word.
-Hank
I have. I was quoting the person who told me that it was "gay". Gay means happy which is how it was originally used up until very recently. The Wizard of Oz books use gay to mean happy.
To my children's (daughter 14, son 11) contemporaries, the adjective "gay" is mostly used to describe a person or thing that fits the speaker's own narrow definition of what is "awkward" or "geeky." This is pretty much the same as when I was junior-high-school age in the late sixties and early seventies, when kids who didn't fit someone else's idea of what was "cool" were unfairly labelled as "faggots."
So my point is that if your hobby, or lifestyle, or whatever you are into, doesn't break the law or interfere with anyone else's rights, but perhaps is not "cool" enough to suit someone else's tastes, that's their problem, not yours.
Then there were the phrases prohibited by the Hayes Commission movie code. The ban was so effective that most of the phrases like "in your hat" have passed out of the language.
It has been noted that if a word or expression has both a clean and a dirty meaning, the dirty meaning eventually will become the exclusive one. For instance, "feces" once meant any sort of waste or dregs, especially those found at the bottom of wine bottles, in addition to its current, familiar one. Over time, these other meanings gradually faded out of use.
When I moved to New York from RI in 1996, I shocked quite a few new female friends when I suggested we "hook up" - meaning meeting somewhere - not knowing what the phrase meant here. To this day, when my RI friends use the phrase suggestively, they say "hook up in the New York sense."
You do know don't you, that the meaning of the word "gay" has changed in the last forty years. In the old days, a "gay" person was one who was high spirited, carefree, reckless, irresponsible and lived life to the fullest (riding at the railfan window). To the day they died, my parents never accepted the fact that "gay" now refers to sexual orientation. Some words in the English language have really changed their meaning over the years, and others have just stopped being used at all.
well......maybe riding busses is a little.
WHOA! Wait a minute, being a bus or subway buff is not being gay! Yes, there is Gay bus and subway buffs.
I for one have nothing against Gay or Bi-Sexual people, I have many of friends that are. But because being a Bus or Subway buff does not signify you as being gay, Especially a BUS BUFF!
I have a love for buses and trains, and the comment you made was a little offensive to me as a bus buff!
To WMATA:
I have been called gay on several occasions becuase of the field I like. OH WELL, Shake it off and keep stepping high, at least your not doing drugs!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
I thought she dissed YOU! You better be there after all that because its my money on the line here.
Oh Honey, Pay It!
She didn't diss me, she thought she dissed and in actuality she humored me!
But I will stomp a serious Mud Hole in her tomorrow, believe that!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Please, don't argue. It distracts people from what we do when there's a full moon.
Personally, I haven't been gay and a railfan since the Triplexes were scrapped...
last I knew genitalia and use thereof were irrelevant to rail enthousiasm. If these persons of diminished capacity (evidenced by lack of rail interest) have some problem, I reccoment new friends.
The most knowlegeable rail preservationist I know of is openly gay, he is also a good friend. IMMATURE McCarthy types like to say certain individuals arent "True" Railfans, Americans, Aryans, whatever, other STUPID people say that because a person has certain hobby interests, he must be of a certain sexual orientatiom. Ignore them, just make sure everyone knows that both groups are IDIOTS. for the sake of freedom.
It's just curious that all these years after Stonewall, etc., saying someone is gay is such a common (and boring) insult.
Mark
Actually, a gay friend once asked me not to say things were "gay" when I disapproved of them. He felt that it was degrading to his state of being. I found it strange that you could not use the same word with two different meanings depending on context: his sexual preference, which is "gay" meaning homosexual, and that train station looks "gay", meaning it looks shoddy and done up with cheap plastic, and doesn't look nice. The description of train station has nothing to do with the sexual preference of my gay friend or with his dress code.
It's kind of like saying that the girl is "hot" and that cup of coffee is "hot". It doesn't mean that you find the coffee sexually attractive, or if you touch the girl you will have burns on your hands.
AEM7
A feminist would find it very offensive that a person should refer to a girl as "hot". Being "hot" can be a negative attribute, especially when the girl does not intend to be considered sexually attractive. Girls also feel threatened if they are labelled "hot". It's not a positive meaning of "hot" except to the most chauvinistic male.
If things that are cheap and plastic and shoddy is not "gay", then girls who are pretty and dressed seductively are not "hot".
AEM7
Well that is because there are very few feminists that can be considered "hot".
What about my girlfriend... AND my hourse-riding ex-girlfriend?
I do take issue with some feminists, but I don't have prejudices with respect to their appearance and the level of attractive quality.
I've known girls like that...
You know that people who call others "gay" (assuming that the people being called aren't openly gay) are just insecure about their own sexual orientation.
Just tell this dumbass that, and watch how angry they get. And this person would become angry because of his own homophobia.
How true. It reminds me of a kid who would be the first to scream 'faggot' at you in insult. 10 years later, I run into the same jerk at college. He turned into an OK guy. And he's gay.
Just one of life's little ironies...
-Hank :)
[Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too. I have told this person to come to the chat on Wednesday to convince us that it is. Please come willing to fight for railfanning not being gay and to show this person they are wrong and we don't critizize their hobbies! Thanks!]
Don't bother wasting your time by responding to the schmuck. What a ridiculous comment!
These people don't understand what you do, and are afraid of you because you think for yourself. Saying something "is gay" is just an off the cuff dismissal from someone who can't "think outside of the box"
Anyone have a problem with that?
Bill J.
None from here. Besides it's nobody's business but your own. How's that from a Conservative Republican? However, if you are anti Sea Beach then we have a problem; if you're pro Sea Beach then you have a new buddy on this site. Have a great day.
No problem kid! More power to you! I have more gay friends then straight friends and they are the coolest and funniest bunch of people I've hung out with!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
The point of the original post in this tread is to refute the idiotic claim that ALL railfans MUST be gay BY DEFINITION.
Of course there are gay railfans. There are also gay baseball fans, gay joggers, gay rifle collectors, gay architects, and so forth. By somebody's odd logic, then, ALL baseball fans, joggers, rifle collectors, and architects must be gay by definition. But how can that be, when there's at least one non-gay baseball fan, etc.?
My own approach is not to rush over to some chatroom to "discuss" the matter with someone who probably won't change his/her mind, anyway. There's no sense in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, and no use dignifying a bigot's comments with a response.
It isn't just me. She isn't that best in choosing the right words. What she said is that it is stupid and she went on insulting what we believe. She things horseback riding and going to the mall is interesting and I never said it was "gay" (if u have AOL, u can pull up her profile: nikebabe17). Just come anyway because if she doesn't show, she gets to be in debt and we can talk about subways. If she comes, we can annoy the heck out of her and insult her, and then talk about subways.
WHOA!
Horseback riding IS interesting -- the only girl railfan I'd met was really into her horses, and she once told me that trains are, well, just like horses, each having their own personality, and they just go faster, and they have to be cared for, too. I ended up going horsueback riding with this girl. Anyway. Well Jersey Mike met this horsueback riding girl too, and he went riding with her, too. I even have the fotos. Once you understand hourseback riding, you'll realize it's as much fun as going train riding.
But going to the mall IS boring.
AEM7
Peace,
ANDEE
It's bad sign on SubTalk when we have to restart ancient threads.
No it isn't. If the discussion simply started anew, no one would complain.
Reviving old threads is BETTER, everyone can see earlier versions of the discussion instead of rehashing the same exact points.
So in theory, if you are skilled at riding one horse, you should be able to ride any horse. But also like a train, each horse has its own personality. I would like to see a BART operator try to tame a crazed Triplex! Yeeeee-hah!
As to railfans liking women who ride horses, who wouldn't? A girl or woman on a horse is a very pretty, graceful and attractive thing.
It used to be said that young women shouldn't go horseback riding because their husbands wouldn't think they were virgins on their wedding nights.
AcelaExpress2005 - R160
Then again, being this is a three year old thread maybe you already did prove it.
Yeah, when I read that thread, I sensed that WMATAGOAUGH had a crush on this girl. The thing is, railfan males tend to fall for horsueriding girls -- until they realize it's unattainable, and then they go for something far more practical and better. I've had the same experience.
WMATAGOAUGH is such a cool dude. I can really relate to him, at least on the railfan in their 20's level.
AEM7
That's an interesting theory. I wonder is some foundation would give me a $10 million grant to study it?
If we still lived in the age of horsedrawn streetcars that make for a perfect match, I suppose.
Mark
I guess the author associate people who use tokens are "queer"
The word "gay" has taken on different meanings to the 20 something generation. It usually means that activity is "weird" or "unusual." The person who said it would probably think coin or stamp collecting was "gay" as well. Again, it is a lack of understanding of what railfanning is all about.
As a Muslim, I find it totally offensive to associate railfanning (which I love) with homosexuality. They are two different things not related to each other, and I will not divulge any further on this issue because then I will end up preaching religion here.
The issue isn't so much about who is gay, but what if somebody is gay. If someone in here is gay, he still deserves to be treated with the same respect as a railfan would treat another railfan.
There is a correlation between being gay and being a railfan, just like there is a correlation between smoking and getting cancer. But lots of people who smoke do not get cancer, and lots of people who get cancer are not smokers. Regardless of whether someone has cancer or not, people who smoke treat each other with the same respect that a smoker would treat another.
By the way, just out of my college class:
Number of students: 15 (of which 12 are male)
Number of railfans: 5
Number of gays: 4
Number of gay railfans: 3
Not a big sample, but illustrates my point about correlation, not causation.
AEM7
Railfans appear much more likely than average to be male (by an overwhleming margin), or to be in the Autistic spectrum, or to be of unusual intelligence (either very high or lower than average). I would say that railfans are also people are more likely than the general populace to pursue technical and scientific fields. Interestingly, there appears to be zero correlation of race or ethniciry.
What's unusual to me is that this charge was made by a girl. Usually it's only men and boys who would deride another male's sexuality. It sounds to me like she was pissed because she wasn't being paid attention to. Or maybe it was a challenge.
Seems to me the question wouldn't be whether railfanning might attract gays as why it might. A non-rail example is body-building. Body builders are often accused of being gay--Joe Wieder, the body-building guru acknowledged that body-building probably does attract more gays (but not overwhelmingly more) than in the general population, because of its emphasis on perfection of the male (and more recently female) body. But the great majority of body-builders are not gay--ask the people who tried to mess up Arnold's campaign.
A more credible rumor is that many top-level bodybuilders, while they do not consider themselves gay, are willing to pose nude to be photographed or sketched by gay men, in return for money. They do not actually engage in any sexual activity. What makes this rumor fairly easy to believe is the oft-cited claim that gay men tend to be excited by hugely muscled male bodies - much more so than women, who are often repulsed by the sight. In addition, money is usually a big problem for all but the very top bodybuilders: endorsements are few and far between, prize money is minimal, the extreme demands of a bodybuilder's training regimen make it very difficult to hold a day job (many work as bouncers, but that usually doesn't pay well), and last but definitely not least, the average competitive pro or top amateur bodybuilder has to spend at least $60K per year on 'roids.
A correlation to that would be to assume that a professional female artist's model could be viewed as "easy" because she accepts money to allow straight males to sketch her nude.
A corollary, not correlation.
cor·ol·lar·y (kôr-lr, kr-)
n. pl. cor·ol·lar·ies
A proposition that follows with little or no proof required from one already proven. A deduction or an inference. A natural consequence or effect; a result.
It as off-topic as it can be, and has already ventured into the gasoline saturated part of the BBS world known as FLAME WARS.
You're only jealous because you don't have a horseriding girlfriend.
From the 9 fantrips I've attended, I have also noticed the same things. The only women I see on these trips are either TA employees or wives/girlfriends of male riders. I have also noticed that many of the regular attendees are either very intelligent or have less than average intelligence (I'm not sure what group I fit in). The younger ones tend to be obsessed with details, the older ones with their experiences as a younger person. I have made many new friends on these trips, but there are plenty of people I've met that I would never want to associate with anywhere else.
Ones that do a credible imitation of an Arnine compressor while shaking your hand?
Wait, I know... GUYS! Well and maybe makeup and shopping.
I guess shopping is a biggie, but I'm not sure how many like to shop with men, and I don't think many guys like to be hauled around on a girl's shopping trip.
Depends also what kind of girl you like. If you meet a girl at a nature preserve wearing a flannel shirt and little makeup, she's probably going to be turned on to a different kind of guy than a prep at a shopping mall glued to her cell.
Since when do shopping malls have cells that hold perps? :-)
Mark
Dang! This thread keeps drifting back on topic!
King of Prussia Mall should be served by the route 100 line and would be if anyone who has a say in the matter had any sense, but...
Isn't there a mall in Cleveland called Tower Center that has rail service? In St. Louis the old passenger rail station was turned into a mall, and is served by the Metrolink light rail.
Mark
Speaking of Springfield Mall, does anyone know if The Leftorium is still open?
Mark
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Crime" from the Light Rail is a total lie, since Hunt Valley is on Shawan Road, which is an 8 lane highway (which the Light Rail crosses at grade) that runs west from York Road. The 8 lane part stops at I-83 and Shawan continues west as a typical north Baltimore County local road.
The current owners are converting it to a "Main Street" center, which is the latest trend in shopping places - bringing back the era of the "Main Street" of yore.
The old ownership "blew it" when the Hunt Valley extension was built. The MTA offered to put the station right at the Mall's front door, but no, the owners had it put between the access road and Shawan, so it's a walk across the parking lot to the stores.
Considering the headways on the Light Rail (currently 21 minutes), not too many "bad guys" are going to hang around for 15 or more minutes for a LRV. They are doing what they always have - coming and going by auto. (Sometimes hot, sometimes not.)
I know... I simply quoted deadmalls.com as a way of pointing out one more bunch of folks misled by the stereotype. You had mentioned the plan to put the light rail station by the mall entrance before; too bad they didn't do it, but then again given the NCL mentality that still seems to define Baltimore transit planning it probably wouldn't have made much difference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If this was the case, you're absolutely correct. The mall will ONLY benefit from the light rail if it's within about 500 feet of the store and headway is within 10 to 15 minutes. The Hudson Bergen light rail is less than 500 feet of Macy's in the New Port Mall. The majority of the customers that enter that store come from the the Lightrail.
The person who made the decision for the mall probably did NOT want the light rail to block motor traffic and placed it far away. He protected the interests of the motorists and got burned big time when they did not patronize his mall.
Justice deserved.
Rouse used a simple trick to make customers happy - wallboard. Vacant store spaces were enclosed with painted wallboard, while at Hunt Valley the vacant store spaces left open, with lighting cables and bare beams showing. Turned the customers off, and with White Marsh opening just 22 days after Hunt Valley, the customers voted with their steering wheels.
With I-83 right on the Mall's entrances, the trip to White Marsh was 20 minutes away.
White Marsh prospered and kept growing, while Hunt Valley atrophied. The light rail was the last hope, and the owners blew that.
Different kind of guy? Haven't you heard the old stereotype - flannel shirts = chewed carpets?
: )
All men love the Three Stooges.
All women HATE them.
The positions are completely reversed for I LOVE LUCY.
At the risk of generalizing, women seem to go for shopping, soap operas, talking about the dumb things their husbands or boyfriends do, and 'touring' a house they're at for the first time.
There have been scattered women on a few previous Subtalk trips. I know of only one who regularly posts on this board. Maybe there are others whose handles obscure their genders. The Transit Museum and MOD trips seem to attract a fair amount of women. Maybe it's because these are 'family' attractions.
I'm a guy, but am not the least bit interested in football. Before you call my masculinity into question, I am into baseball- and trains, obviously.
I have to be the weird one here. I would rather receive a really nicely wrapped pooh bear than some expensive computer gadget that comes in the store bag. See, the point is, I can buy myself computer gadgets, but I can't buy myself nice wrapping -- someone who cares about me has to make it :-)
For years, I've kept wrappings intact for some of the packages I got during the holidat season. I'd cut open the wrapping carefully from one end, and remove the box, and save the wrapping the way it was wrapped (having first flattened it).
The positions are completely reversed for I LOVE LUCY.
Howard, thank you for introducing more ambiguity into my life! :)
--Mark
- Amanda
I am unaware of any worthwhile scientific studies proving such a correlation.
Jeez, has Subtalk fallen so low that we have to argue such BS?
Too bad, cuz it would be interesting to see how religion affects railroading... I wonder if there are particularly Islamic or Christian or Jewish ways of building a railroad or riding a train.
Here are some things that I can think of Judaism (my religion) that can affect railroading:
-Orthodox Judaism requires people to be within walking distance of synagogues on Shabbat (a weekly holiday corresponding to the period between Friday's setting sun and Saturday's setting sun). Because of this, it follows that Orthodox Jewish settlements would be naturally transit-oriented (so long as you build the train station near the synagogue).
-Orthodox Judaism also requires folks to abstain from traveling on Shabbat, as tradition considers this to be work. (This is one reason why I'm NOT an Orthodox Jew. I look forwards to weekend train trips.) Therefore, there will be less ridership on Saturdays coming from stations near Orthodox synagogues.
-Orthodox Judaism practices a code of dietary laws called Kasthrut (origin of the word "kosher"). This applies to food, banning pork and shellfish (another reason for my non-Orthodoxy), requiring meat to be salted to remove the blood, etc. Therefore, kitchens on intercity trains with a largely Orthodox Jewish ridership would be run somewhat differently from other railroad kitchens.
-There may be other rules in Judaism (well, the strict varieties of it, anyway) that may be applicable to railroads. I wonder... How many ways that u can think of does religion affect railroading and taking trips?
Very interesting tie-in piece of Religion and Railfanning. Very nice Richard.
I'd appreicate it if you could email me as I have some other questions about the Muslim religion.
Thanks
Bill
One cannot eat meat for 1/2 hour after eating dairy, and cannot eat dairy 6 hours after eating meat.
Note that poultry is considered meat in this case, which makes no sense, fish isn't.
Common sense. If fish were considered meat, you couldn't have lox & bagel with a schmeer. Who ever heard of chicken & bagel with a schmeer?
Maybe in Kansas...
Make that lack of advanced scientific knowledge. Virtually all Kosher laws are based on an understanding of which foods or ways of handling food are likely to cause illness, and/or on ethical considerations.
It took milennia to have an understanding of proper food raising, handling, and cooking. You can safely eat raw pork in Germany, but I wouldn't do it here. You have to be very careful of the origin of shellfish eaten raw, and so on.
Speaking of institutional menu planning, the Army had rules on what the mess halls had to serve. They allowed a lot of flexibility, but, for example, they had to serve eight pork meals for dinner each month. Well, some bright light got the idea that mess halls should serve one "regional dish" (local to the post) each month. So one month when I was at Fort Meade (Maryland) they served oyster stew. Picture about 100 soldiers sitting at tables staring into bowls of white stuff thinking "what the &*^&*@%#^???". Ate a lot of vegetables and fresh milk for dinner that night.
I wish that oyster stew had been merely bland. Think of the tougest scungili you ever ate. Now cut it in pieces and put it in the bottom of a bowl of warm milk. Nothing can rescue it.
If anyone sneaked it to the base cats, they would probably have been court-martialed.
Fish consumption still peaks on Fridays despite the end of the no-meat rule. Which is why you should never order fish if you go to a restaurant on a Monday - it may be left over from the big shipment received on Friday. If the Monday fish is vinaigrette style, definitely do not order it!
I think a deep-set part of the American rural psyche is the picture of Shakers and their horse-drawn wagons, within a day's journey from a small town. Thus the deep-set prejudice against being dependent on cities, mechanized transport, and what the Shakers call "English" capitalist values, which depend on railroads.
But Amish will ride in a car or take a train or bus if necessity warrants; otherwise it would be almost impossible for Pennsylvania Amish to visit Amish communities in Ohio.
Like many other religions, Amish also find other ways to get around the more difficult burdens of their life-style--for example, keeping large perishables in communal refrigerators at grocery stores. Many Amish are in the construction business (for non-Amish). They may keep a telephone, but out on the front porch to keep in touch with non-AMish clients.
Some Amish will have a telephone booth located close to several homes for emergency purposes. Another common practice is to use the telephone, washing machine, microwave or whatever of your Mennonite neighbor/cousin who lives next door. In commercial ventures sometimes Amish will go into business with "English" partners who will do all the stuff that uses electricity, etc.
Mennonites on the other hand cover a broad spectrum, ranging from conservatives who live very much like the Amish to very modern-living liberals on the other extreme. I'm a Mennonite, and I'm definitely the latter. Bringing this back on topic, I know lots of Mennonites who prefer to use transit to driving for environmental reasons and such.
Mark
Is Mennonite all Green and stuff? I once met this Mennonite girl who was talking about some urban farm stuff. Apparently she wants to do the grassroots farmer thing except in urban land like in downtown Camden (NJ). I thought she was crazy. But she was very Green and hippie. She also invited me to her house hinting that more might happen. Is that against Mennonite values? Well anyway I wasn't all that interested, but she was fun to talk to for 30 minutes on the train. It gives me a world of insight into other cultures and people when I talk with random strangers onboard transit vehicles.
AEM7
It gives me a world of insight into other cultures and people when I talk with random strangers onboard transit vehicles.
That's very true!
Mark
So she hinted that "more" might happen but you weren't interested? Not good. Maybe you should eat more oysters.
Whoops, I forgot to answer the second part of your question...technically it is, but individuals always come up with their own unorthodoxies in any religion I suppose.
Mark
For me, mostly the issue of food. Like you, I am Jewish but not Orthodox, so the issue of travel on the Sabbath doesn't affect my choice of transportation. Food is an issue, though; while I do not keep strictly kosher, I will not eat pork or shellfish, nor will I mix meat and milk, so selecting a meal on Amtrak can be a challenge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mark
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Tanqueray is SO yesterday ... a true Episcopalian should be drinking Bombay Sapphire :)
A true Episcopalian drinks.
I think Jesus would probably join a bunch of disciples on a bus, or a subway if available.
Mark
I sort of envision a modern-day Jesus as driving an older Volvo or Subaru.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not about the whole environment thing, but rather he would be with people.
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
'Cause they're all up above
Drinkin' beer and makin' love
Oh there's no Epicopalians down in hell
Let's just say "WASP," it's shorter if not totally accurate.
Put it this way, when I'd visit WASP friends, the second question was "How the Hell Are Ya?" The FIRST question was "What Can I Make You?"
But the WASPs I've known are mostly real nice people, with many fine qualities, not the least of which is that you can stereotype them without their coming after you with their squirrel guns. ;-)
I think the social drinking is beginning to go out with the older generation, though.
Episcopalians occasionally believe in miracles and sometimes even expect them, particularly during stewardship canvasses or when electing bishops or vicars, or recruiting church school teachers.
Episcopalians believe in ecumenical dialogue because they are certain that after all is said and done, everyone else is bound to become Episcopalian.
Episcopalians strongly believe in Scripture, tradition and reason. While they aren't sure what they believe about these three things, there is almost universal agreement that that is hardly the point.
Episcopalians believe that everything in their life and faith is improved by the presence of good food and drink, not including lime-carrot jello, tropical punch Kool-Aid, or canned tuna fish in any form.
Episcopalians believe that anything worth doing is especially worth doing if it has an obscure title attached to it (e.g. sexton, thurifer, suffragan, canon, dean).
Likewise, Episcopalians believe that any place worth visiting is greatly enhanced by a name that only obliquely describes it (e.g., nave, narthex, sacristy, undercroft, church school supply room).
Episcopalians firmly believe that coffee hour is the eighth sacrament, but only if the coffee is caffeinated.
Episcopalians believe that anthems are most efficacious if sung in Latin or German, especially during Lent.
Episcopalians generally believe that they are the only people God trusts enough to take the summers off from Church.
Some Episcopalians believe Rite I is the best expression of the liturgy. Some believe Rite II is better. Most Episcopalians haven't noticed the difference; they just hope the whole things gets over before noon.
***
Q: What's the difference between Episcopalians and Southern Baptists?
A: Episcopalians actually wave to each other in the liquor store.
***
A line of people was formed up at the Pearly Gates, waiting to enter. St. Peter was checking their names off a clipboard. The next man stepped up and said, "Peter, I'm Jewish, can I still get in?"
St. Peter said, "Why, of course. We have a reciprocity agreement. Let me just check your records here . . . Uh oh. You know that BLT sandwich you had last week? The "B" is for bacon, and bacon is pork, and you know you're not allowed to eat pork. Sorry, come back later."
The next man stepped up. "St. Peter, I'm Roman Catholic, surely you'll let me in."
St. Peter says, "Why, of course. Let me just check the documentation here . . . Hmmmm -- you know that Big Mac you ate last Friday. It's Lent, you know -- no meat on Friday. You'll have to come back later."
The next man steps up. "I'm Episcopalian, I can get in right away, can't I?"
St. Peter says, "Naturally! Let me just check this over . . . Uh oh. That vestry dinner last week? You ate your salad with the dinner fork."
***
Q: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: What???!! My grandmother donated that light bulb in 1954!
***
Q: How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two, one to summon the butler to call the electrician, and the other to mix martinis while they wait.
***
Q: How many Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Seventy:
1 Crucifer
2 vergers
2 torchbearers
1 Thurifur
1 Alcolyte to carry new bulb on pillow
1 Subdeacon
1 Deacon
1 Celebrant
50-member choir of men and boys to sing the Mass for the Changing of a Lightbulb (Anglican Missal)
10 people to go to a bar afterwards to argue about the liturgy and vestments.
***
Roman Catholics go to Heaven because of their exceptionally good works.
Lutherans go to Heaven because of their exceptionally good faith.
Episcopalians go to Heaven because of their exceedingly good taste.
***
Different Denomination Ministries:
The Salvation Army picks you up out of the gutter.
The Baptists get you saved.
The Methodists teach you how to sing.
The Presbyterians educate you.
The Episcopalians introduce you to high society.
Then the Salvation Army picks you up out of the gutter again.
***
In all seriousness, the Episcopal Church in the USA is the American branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion, which traces its roots back to the Church of England. Of course, the C of E split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500's ostensibly due to King Henry VIII's desire to get a divorce, although there had already been a strong movement in England at the time to split from Rome.
In terms of theology, the Episcopal Church is unique in that it has no specific dogma or doctrine beyond the traditional Creeds of the early Church (the Apostle's Creed and Nicene Creed). We tend to me more liberal in terms of social issues (we just consecrated our first openly gay bishop earlier this year), although there's actually a fairly wide range of opinions within the church. In terms of worship, there's a fairly great deal of variety, although your typical Anglican mass is almost indistinguishable from a typical Roman Catholic mass. In fact, some Anglo-Catholic parishes (St. Mary the Virgin near Times Square comes to mind) arguably have far more pomp and formality than any RC church, especially since Vatican II.
That's the Episcopal Church in a nutshell...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Whenever you want to bring religion into the subject, it's OK, but when someone else wants to make an informative, witty and funny post about religion, you call them up on it.
But have to quibble with "[will not eat] canned tuna fish in any form."
You forgot Tuna Noodle Casserole. And I don't think the Episcopal Church in America could exist without Campbell cream soups and Lipton onion soup.
What is it with all those Germans marrying Irish? I mean, Irish girls may have been desparate at that point, but surely they could do better than Germans!??? For Goodness sake, they could have married BRITS!!!
Or they could have married a Jewish guy, like my Irish wife Rosemary did.:)
If you don't have to eat it every day of your life, that's fine by me. One of my big complaints with ethnic restaurants is that when you ask for it to made "native style" or "native hot" (for food I'm familiar with) they say "oh, yes, yes" and then they still serve it for what they think is American taste.
OTOH, a well-known German restaurant (Luchow's, on 14th Street) is the only restaurant I was ever in where the waiter ordered me what to eat. I didn't get to German (as opposed to the sometimes similar Continental) resaturants very often, and I knew what I wanted, but he said to me: "You ordered two starches. You can't have that." Yes, it was a la carte. Read the quote with a Colonel Klink accent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(On topic reference: There are a lot of Italians in Howard Beach, who have a new great commute if they work in Jamaica that just opened this week).
It may simply have been because both groups tended to arrive in the United States, or at least in Brooklyn, at roughly the same time and therefore occupied similar rungs on the socioeconomic ladder. Members of both groups consequently encountered each other in schools jobs and neighborhoods with some frequency, and relationships tended to follow.
The Methodists followed them when they built the railroads.
The Episcopalians finally showed up when they put bar cars on the trains.
So does the Bible, by the way. But the Protestents of New Hampshire doesn't seem to give a flying Donkey. Also, there were documented homosexuals in ancient Greek times, apparently practicing their 'deed' under full protection of the religious powers in effect at the time.
What people believe is a personal choice, including what people believe is in their religion. I believe in God, but I only choose to believe in the parts of God that I like to believe in. That's my religious belief.
AZEM7
So it looks like shrimp is out too.
Since I believe that it is widely held that God is the only perfect being and since the holy texts are written by man, translated by man, published by man and interperated by man, there's bone to be some SNAFU's along the way. I mean the Bible dosen't even have a Checksum at the end.
You know, I think that there could be really good penitration with a Special Edition Bible with all the deleted scenes restored. From what I have heard there is some really cool stuff.
: )
Mark
A quick check on Amazon shows that you can get compilations of the gnostic gospels and things like that. A lot of really interesting scholarship is being carried out on those texts these days.
Mark
Same for catfish.
OH NO! Maine's going to hell!
I thought Mainers were all Christian Catholic. Oooopsue. Is this the Aramagaddon?
AEM7
I can't wait to bless the Cabbage.
So it looks like shrimp is out too.
I don't think fornication with shrimp should be legal, no matter what your religious persuasion.*
____________________________
*Except, of course, if you are another shrimp, of the opposite sex, and within the bounds of matrimony.
Yes it does. You just haven't learned how to read it yet. If you look at Revelations, some of the passages in there seem to make no sense. That's because these are actually nonsensical words that are used to represent checksum for the previous chapters. We just havn't figured out the algorithm used to calculate the checksum, so we can't verify the validity of the Bible. Once we have the algorithm, the issues like "wise men" versus "prophets" debate in Genesis would be settled for ever. Presumably "wise men" and "profits" will checksum to different values. If the sum to the same value, then it means God was indifferent as to who those guys were. They were just either wise men or prophets.
AEM7
Remember the OKC bombing on 4/15/1996? The day after the tragic incident, much of the news media were quick to rush to judgement that the same Islamic radicals who were responsible for the 2/1993 WTC bombing might be behind the OKC bombing. Little did they knew that two people who were behind the attack were anything but what the media falsely accused of.
Number Two, Neither gay nor striaght is better than than the other.
I think the vast a majority of people here would not stand for intolorence
OK, take this quick test:
When approaching a home signal, would you prefer that it be green over green, or green over yellow? If you say "red over red" I can probably get you a good rate on therapy. If you say "green over red" you are an unreconstructed IRT fan, and beyond help.
My head is always stuck at a 90 degree angle, especially on the R40 slants.
I wonder what a Sea Beach fan is like. Head totally upside down in California?
As a frequent New Englande NEC and Boston Line rider you should know that.
Recently, someone has said that riding trains and buses for fun is gay and that I am gay too
Have you ever had a railfan riding the train “for fun” that was of your gender make a pass at you? No? Has this fool challenging you observed just what gay people do on the train? (Mostly they look at each other.)
No, it is widely known that being a railfan is a hobby for straights…
It does not have feelings and males don't have problems relating to it.
Women, on the other hand, desires things that are real in nature or connected to the earth. Women do not value electrical components and things that is remove from GOD's creation.
Most places you will see women at: Churches, Family reunions, Social clubs, ect. But you will never see a woman on a subway train unless she is using it for going to point A to point B.
I do not dislike the person for saying GAY men like riding subways, but I do think she needs help in understanding the male spices.
I wonder what she thinks about males who have a fascination with electronic gadgets? There is definitely a similarity in liking the subway/bus and spending great time in experiment with your car stereo.
How many women experiment with their car stereo with the cover taken off? How many women would go under the hood of their car?
How would the function without the male spices? We built the trains, planes, buses and everything else that this woman benefits from. And we can't forget computers.
Women are not hands on. But they are nurturers. And this aspect is very important.. because it makes getting the job done easier.
Funny I might say this, but maybe her boy friend (or former boy friend) is (was) a subway fan. If that's true, it becomes clear why she would say that these men are Gay. Because it is a way to hide her own insecurities. Maybe he admired the subway over her.. who knows.. Women are very funny creators.. Don't always take what they say to be realistic.. READ BETWEEN THE LINES!
Remember, I've been married for over 5 years now. And I know how women think. Just be careful
that's all. I. Have. To. Say.
N Broadway Line
Ummmm....exactly which spices are the male ones? :-)
: )
Mark
I love Nutmeg in my Koffee. And before you say it I AM NOT GAT and I AM A RAILFAN.
: )
Mark
How more off-topic can this thread get?
--Mark
Regards,
Jimmy
Not that there's anything wrong with it. :)
In the days before Oct 13th,1950, the Jamaica train ran express from Essex St to Eastern Parkway, stopping only at Myrtle Ave (Marcy Ave was a local stop in those days, Honest). The train from Chambers St to Metropolitan Ave handled the local stops at Marcy, Hewes, Lorimer and Flushing. The Lex handled the local stops at Gates, Halsey and Chauncey.
Who the devil made the local stop at Kosciusko? Was there another train on the line that in my old age I have completely forgotten?
big ed, this question ought to be right up your alley, do you know?
You forgot the #14 line, which ran local from Canal St to either Atlantic Ave, Canarsie or sometimes out to Jamaica, making skip stops with the #15 (like the J/Z). This line was changed to the JJ after 11/27/67 and was eliminated on 7/1/68. I don't believe the Lexington Ave el line ever served the Bway local stops exclusively at any time after the connection to the Willy B was made to the Bway el in 1913.
You're right, I had forgotten about that train, perhaps because I hardly, if ever, used it.
You know, back in those days, no one knew anything about numbers or letters. They were never shown anywhere, not even on the maps. LarryRedbirdR33 asked me in a post, many months ago if I enjoyed riding on the 12, and I did not know what he was talking about. I'm not even sure that I can remember the Carnasie Line displaying a 16 on the "Multi's", and they should have. The numbers were the best kept secret of the BMT.
All trains were referred to by names such as Lex, Myrt, Jamaica or Carnasie until the R-16 came on the scene displaying that big 15.
You know, back in those days, no one knew anything about numbers or letters. They were never shown anywhere, not even on the maps.
Actually, if you look at the BMT maps from the 1920s and 1930s on this site, you'll find the route numbers in the service information.
-- Ed Sachs
Until 1955 and the R 15s, the only trains tht showed the numbers were the Triplex, The Multis, The R1-9 and the R11.
As far as I know the R1-9's never never had numbers on their rolls.
The destination head signs had number 2 as well as other numbers, when they wereused in the 50s on the 4th Ave Local
And the R-1s which ran tests on the Sea Beach in 1931 carried #4 signs up front. Their side destination signs had the terminals reversed, with the upper signs set to Coney Island and the lower signs showing Times Square.
Many R1's did after getting sent to the BMT in 1948.
Here's one of them. R1 #100 spending it's last days on the Culver Shuttle @ 1971 ...
That would have been the museum train.. pity I missed seeing that. I was working the A division at the time.
Nope, this is an in-service R1 on the Culver Shuttle. In 1971 R1 #100 was still in service.
Yes, in-service she was, BUT I never remember seeing ANY R-1 thru R-9 cars looking THAT spiffy back in 1971 (they were endemic in Jamaica Yard and Eastern Division); #100 had to have been tapped for the Museum and she certainly looks to be in museum condition, even though in service.
What others were in the train with #100? R4 #484? R7 #1575 was still toiling away in Eastern Division back then.
wayne
There are photos in the car section of #100 on the Culver Shuttle in 1971. And elsewhere. IIRC, 1440 was also part of that consist. I agree with you: 100 looks as if it's ready for the museum. There's a photo of it in New York Subway Cars from 1969 or thereabouts, and it definitely shows its age. It was part of a D train.
Here's the same car from 1969 on the B line. You're correct, it was definatly spruced up:
Sometime back in 1970, I spotted #100 on the "F" train, amid a consist of mixed R-4s (800-series), R-6s and lo-number R-7s. She's been everywhere, it seems.
Wayne
I noticed something in those photos of R-1/9 B trains. The "6th Ave." subscript on the bulkhead route curtains was frequently covered over. Take a good look at #100 and you'll see it. Don't ask me why. In addition, a "B/via 6th Ave." sign was spliced into the side route curtains, which IMHO was totally unnecessary because the R-1/9s already had "B/6th Ave. express" signs. Most of the B trains I saw in the late 60s were R-32s with B overlays pasted over the BB signs on both bulkhead and side route curtains.
Guess the offering my memory can make is that the R40 and R42 cars pretty near wiped out the oldest of the Rl-9 types, or did wipe out the Rl's anyway. I'd also guess that the last of the R42 was delivered by l97l. Note the almopst polished brass around the markaers and signs; they never looked that good in service not to mention what appears to be fresh paint?
The last of the R42s arrived in late 1970.
wayne
R-1 #100 was spruced up at about that time, no doubt about it. Curiously, the R-1/9s were never repainted on the outside, except for the few which received the silver and blue treatment. Nor did all of the R-1/9s have those brass strips around their rollsigns. Shore Line's 1689 certainly doesn't. My sign box doesn't have them either; #100's does. I saw this at the Transit Museum last fall.
A lot depended on which group of cars it was from. There were small variations from R1,R4,R6,R7,R9 but it took a bit of riding to notice. Needless to say as time went by a method of cutting production costs evolved which would be the likely reason.
Very true. 1689 is an R-9, so any such cost-cutting measures would have been implemented when it was built. I'm looking at my photo of me assuming the position between 100 and 484 at the Transit Museum as I write this, and it appears that 484 has those same brass strips around its bulkhead signs as well. OTOH, R-4 714 in the 1967 photo of two A trains at Rockaway Blvd., which is my computer's desktop photo, does not appear to have them.
Of course, the most obvious difference between earlier and later R-1/9s was the storm door window. On R-1s and R-4s, it was one large pane of glass; on R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s, it was split. The doors on the R-1s and R-4s sounded different from those on later cars as well.
And R-6-2's had those distinctive (and rather musical) bottle-nosed GE fans, with the curly blades.
The R-6-2 had a few other minor cosmetic differences as well. One of these involved the ceiling lite just outside the motorman's cab. Not only was the rod a little longer, the flare around the bulb socket was wider as well. The bracket leading from the standee pole on the transverse seat to the side of the roof was angled differently too.
Too bad not ONE R-6-2 has survived; what's especially unsettling is that one (#1208) had been slated for preservation and was nicely rehabilitated; somehow they wound up scrapping it. A Cardinal SIN.
My old friend R-6-2 #1277 went to the scrap heap in the fall of 1976.
wayne
How about those little square recesses on the outside of the doors. They were not on all the R1-9's.
You mean those indentations? I thought all of the R-1/9s had them. They looked soo-ooo-oo inviting. That's one thing I noticed right away on that AA train which pulled into 42nd St. on May 7, 1967. I came this close to taking hold of the doors and trying to pry them open.
I've definitely seen 1-9's without them. Maybe some of the car experts can explain.
Well Steve, I did some research on this site and guess what, I'm not nuts after all!!! On the pics of the R1's including R1 100 there is no indentation under the door windows such as this one. But on the pics of the R9's such as this one the indentations are there, right under the door windows. Funny thing, when I was still riding those cars in the 60's & 70's I never knew there were car differences, that they were all the same-so those little differences such as the indentations & storm door windows (double, single, with or without wire mesh) used to drive me nuts. I remember saying many times: "don't these cars have...."
indentations in side doors on R-1 thru R-9 cars
Obviously, R-7 has 'em too (to wit, #1528 in the photo above), and I do remember seeing them on R-6. The R-4 has them too. It seems that the only ones which don't are the R-1.
wayne
That's not the one that was involved in that 1973 incident, was it?:-) Speaking of that, how would that tie in with that sick passenger thread? You said you got off at Queens Plaza along with just about everyone else in the car a la "A Night at the Opera", and I assume the train went on its way without further delay.
I've always thought of myself as being very observant, but I never picked up nearly as many nuances on the R-1/9s as you did. Other than the differences in storm door windows, interior paint schemes, and door sounds, there wasn't much else. Maybe I was just soaking in all those marvelous sounds. Then again I wasn't a daily rider, just a Saturday commuter, and really didn't ride on those old timers all that much. In fact, I rode on them more times on the Canarsie line than all of the IND routes combined. That's what happens when you insist on taking an A train at all costs.:-)
R-6-2 #1277
That's not the one that was involved in that 1973 incident, was it?:-)
Yep, it sure was!
When we got to Queens Pza, most everybody on the RIGHT side fell out. Me? I was wedged in pretty tight (I squeezed in at Lex., remember?) and had no place to go (at Lex. the doors open on the left). After a shuffle, we got going again; halfway between QP and Roosevelt Ave the air began to get very bad and was putting a hurt on my nose. Still I couldn't get off, even at Roosevelt. Too many people. I endured the situation until 71st Avenue when I bailed out.
wayne
Thanks. I printed your post from last summer with the Gray Book and all. You said you changed trains twice after that, but I wasn't sure if you got off that F train at Queens Plaza or Roosevelt or 71st.
Do you think they would have held up that train at QP if the same sort of thing had happened today?
I got off the R-6-2 at 71st Avenue, the first station where I could manage to maneuver my way out. By that time the air in the car was bluddy SOUR. The next train into 71st was also an "F" (remember, there wasn't any "F" for 20 minutes plus before the R-6); it was a Slant R40 with A/C (#4376) and I took it to Parsons, where I got the "E" to 169th; that was an R40M #4496.
Wayne
I take it the fans weren't running on 1277 that day. That's when you find out just how long you can hold your breath.
How fast did that F train of slants take the Union Turnpike-Parsons Blvd. racetrack stretch?
As a matter of fact, #1277's GE fans were INTERMITTENT. They'd be off, then one or two of them would go on then off again. PLUS there was HEAT in the car as well, for no good reason. There was quite a bit of this phenomenon, heat going on when not needed in the R-6 and R-7 cars during their last days.
The Slant was pretty much right behind the R-6 so we had a couple of places where we got yellows. It wasn't a spectacular run like that of R-6-2 #1233 in '73 and R-10 #3020 in 1981; we may have gotten a bit above 40MPH. The A/C was on full tilt in #4376 and it was ice cold, with condensate on the windows. BTW the entire consist of the Slant was R40-AC. No R40 Soots. The R40M was pretty cold too.
Wayne
The R1-9 didn't have thermostats , neither did the rest of the old heavyweights. So who ever made thew train up turned the heat on by mistake or didn't bother to look.
Ah, so that prewar F rocket ride you spoke of occurred in '73. I have to say I never heard the bull and pinion gears get up to A above middle C. A flat above middle C, yes, on the BMT standards in the 14th St. tunnel. I'm pretty sure the R-7/9s got up there as well. Other than that, F# or possibly G above middle C was as high as they ever got along CPW or Queens. I can't remember how high that E train got up to along Fulton St. in 1969. That's one thing I regret - express rides on the R-1/9s were very few and far between for me.
The Fulton St. express ride on the R1-9 was a blast, believe me. One of my favorite runs in those days was the E from Jamaica to either Rockaway branch, including 8th Ave. express.
Yep, #1233 was homeward bound Monday November 12, 1973. I don't ever remember the gears hitting "A" before that or after it. I was afraid we were going to become airborne - I was spellbound at the front window as everything went by at a blur. We went round the broad curve between Van Wyck and Sutphin at probably 45 MPH then he gave it the gun on the straightaway.
BTW I rode #1277 on November 6, 1973 as well, this time inbound from 179th Street to Lexington Avenue.
Wayne
You realize, of course, that A above middle C is none other than A-440 in today's scheme of things. I'm willing to bet the R-1/9s may have hit that magic pitch on the Howard Beach-Broad Channel drag strip. If that blistering R-10 ride in 1969 was any indication...
Looking back, I was surprised that E train I took back in 1968 on the Queens line didn't get up to A-440, as fast as it was moving. The motorman gave it juice just as we reached 36th St., and the gears bellowed out a resounding F#. That station was a blur.
I presume 1277 had been, shall we say, cleaned up when you rode on it on Nov. 6. BTW, was there a whole lot of graffiti on either of those cars then?
OOPS I didn't fully read the post and in so doing didn't respond to the question -
First (to those who didn't know the overall scenario - a crush-loaded R-6 "F" train with a sick passenger in the first car) I think that if someone had notified the crew that there was a sick passenger aboard they might have done something but there hadn't been an "F" train in close to a half hour (we were already way late). In this day and age I think the passengers would be less tolerant of someone getting sick on the train and would probably have plugged it right there at QP.
Wayne
I imagine that a picture of 1575 before it was made to look like an R10 is rare.
Not really. Here are 3. More are available in the car roster part of this website:
I think what he meant was a picture of R-7 #1575 before its 1946 accident is rare. This accident was the reason #1575 got its new body and interior.
Wayne
05/10/2000
Isn't it funny that on all three of those pix and some others I have seen that #1575 is on an operating end and not buried in the middle. Didn't any motormen confuse it with an R-10 as I have heard?
Bill Newkirk
There is a photo in Gotham Turnstiles of 1575 in the middle of a D train at Smith-9th Sts. or 4th Ave. I've heard that 1575 was better suited as one or the other; i. e., lead motor or in the middle of a consist. It's easy to imagine a motorman wondering if that car had AMUE braking, which it did, or SMEE because it resembled an R-10.
I'm surprised 1575 had a Canarsie sign on its destination curtain, not that it mattered. When the R-7/9s ran on the Eastern Division, their front destination curtains weren't used, even though they remained in place. The canvas was cranked all the way to the blank portion at one end.
You are absolutely right Steve - I never remember seeing ANY of the R-7A/R-9 wearing end destination signs - ONLY route markers.
Wayne
The funny thing is, if you look at that picture of 1575 with the "Canarsie" destination sign, that sign looks as though it came out of an R-16, judging from the graphics. But why did they bother to install that curtain if they weren't going to use destination signs?
Although destination signs weren't "officially" used on the R-7/9s when they ran on the Eastern Division, once in a while a train would display a destination. There is a photo of a QJ train on the Brighton line with "Coney Island" in the front slot.
A similar analogy would be the marker lights on the Redbirds. Officially, they're supposed to be set to red-red, but once in a while, they'll be set to an old corresponding route color code.
Steve..I believe the R-16's had ROCKAWAY PARKWAY on their front roll signs, not CANARSIE. This looks like a homemade sign on 1575.
Carl M.
Thanks, I'll take your word for it.
Oops. When was the re-building done? 1939?
I believe the car was rebuilt in 1946-47 in anticipation of the R-10 order. It was a cosmetic rebuild more than anything else because the car's mechanical and electrical innards remained the same. 1575 ended up looking like an R-10, but was still an R-7A.
I heard that, "Hey - you - almost an R-10!" was a commonly heard phrase.:-)
And its looks never won it any brownie points in William Padron's book, either.
Wayne
I assume thats Ditmas, right?
Yep
Hey Chris R16,
Thanx a heap for the to-die-for shot of R-1 #100. It is now wallpaper on my PC here at work. And it looks great, as R1-9's generally do.
Nice addition to my surroundings. Thanx again.
Joe Caronetti
Please, all credit deserves to be given to the original photographer and Dave Pirmann for scanning it.
While they didn't "regularly" have numbers on their sign rolls, there were some cars used on the BMT in 1931. A photo in Greller's "New York City Subway Cars", page 31, shows car 381 with a #4 in the end sign, and the caption stated that it was being used on the Sea Beach Line "as part of a test". (The caption also states that cars 214-211-208-207-384-387-385-381 were the consist for the test train, so I assume at least the end cars of the train had the signage.)
The side signs read:
CONEY ISLAND (top)
TIMES SQUARE (bottom)
Bridge (upper line of large route)
Sea Beach Express (lower line of large route)
The test apparently ran from July 8, 1931 when the photo was taken until 12/1931 -- captioning says "December 1931 will see this small group return to 207th Street."
Might add that (sorry I'm not exact for dates nor duration) about l952 a group of the low-number R1 cars went on loan to the BMT, and about l958-59 a group og high number R9's were loaned to the BMT. These unfortunately used on the 4th Ave. local (would have been more fun on a fast line) and carried the "2" route designation signs..
Many R1's did after getting sent to the BMT in 1948.
In l955 it was the Rl6 that appeared on the Eastern; the Rl5 were built for Fluching in l950. As the Rl0's did a short stint on the Eastern as Karl B also mentioned they have had the numbers too... or at least provision for them.
Some R10's did have BMT numbers:
That picture of the R-10's looks like they are on the city bound track at Myrtle Ave. Is there any chance that it was taken in late 1954 or early 1955 when they were used to acquaint crews for the arrival of the brand new R-16's.
I remember that usage very well but I didn't remember any of them having signs, of course that was 45 years ago, and they say the memory is the first thing to go. I do remember that they never ran as fast on the Jamaica Line as they did on the "A".
Nothing ran as fast on any of the Eastern lines as they did on the IND. I've heard that the BMT had lower voltage; I had the same feeling with an Rl-9 on the D train. When they ran below DeKalb on the Brighton local they weren't as snappy; onthe express they had achance to highball. As for training crews never rode the Jamaica el until the summer of l955 and they already had Rl6's and I rode an Rl0 on the Jam. el after that... maybe the winter of '56? I concur with your idea of location.
As a kid, motormen and gatemen that I talked to always used to mention 550 volts, and I assumed that the entire system was 550.
Maybe it was just the BMT that operated on 550 volts.:-)
I would imagine those 30 R-10s on the Eastern Division all had BMT number curtains while they ran there. You mentioned earlier that they kept their original paint scheme. As for slower speeds on the elevated structures, even my mother thought that was true. I can remember the R-27s getting a nice head of steam between, IIRC, Flushing Ave. and Lorimer St. along Broadway.
Oh and speaking of on-this-date trivia, it was 28 years ago today that I arrived in Gettysburg with my high school band. My host family had this ratty '59 or '60 Pontiac station wagon, and the senior bandsman took it up to around 60 on one of those two-lane country roads.
I have a snapshot of an R-10 on the curve at Crescent St in late 1954, with nothing showing in the front signboards, neither number or destination. The picture was supposed to have been taken on the first day of revenue service on the BMT, which was Nov 1st 1954.
Just in passing, 1972 was the year I bought my first Pontiac Station Wagon, it was getting kind of "ratty" when I finally traded it in many years later.
I can't believe your ability for remembering dates! :-)
Hey, what can I say?:-) Yesterday also marked 30 years since my first and only visit to Philadelphia. Saw some PCCs cruising along. My college commencement is an easy date to remember; Mt. St. Helens blew up on that very day. The ultimate example of my quirk is a coworker of mine was born on Sept. 16, 1962, and I remember that day! It's become a private joke between us. We were throwing a surprise birthday party for my grandfather. I look at it as sheer coincidence.
Back on topic, it may have been that those R-10s which were transferred to the Eastern Division received roller curtains later on. You would think that they would be fitted with signs first.
The multis did show #16 when they ran on the 14th St. Canarsie line. When they ran out to Lefferts Ave. on the old Fulton St. el portion, they carried #13 signs. This sign display mechanism tended to malfunction in later years, so they often operated with the wrong signs showing. Karl's observation is correct: until the R-16s arrived, no one knew about the 14 and 15 markings for Broadway-Brooklyn and Jamaica trains.
The BMT number code never really caught on because only a small percentage of rolling stock was equipped with end signs, and then it was all subway equipment. Number markings never appeared on el cars. Passengers relied on marker lights to identify trains, and referred to routes by name or title. Chances are no one on the Southern Division ever referred to the Brighton, 4th Ave., West End, Sea Beach, and Culver lines as the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.
When the Jamaica Ran Express on The Broadway Brooklyn Line, there was a Local named the Broadway Brooklyn Line, some ran to Eastern Pkwy. some ran to Jamaica, and even to Rockaway Pky. That train made all local stops.
IIRC, Broadway-Brooklyn trains ran only as far as Crescent St. on the Jamaica line during PM rush hours. Some went as far as Atlantic Ave; others went on to Rockaway Parkway. JJ trains continued this PM rush hour service pattern.
The #14 did run to 168th St. in the 1950's as part of a 14/15 skip stop service. I believe this was only during the PM rush.
There is a pamphlet describing 14/15 skip-stop service during AM rush hours along Jamaica Ave. on Joe Korman's website. It was implemented in 1959.
It was that website in which I learned this fact from. It must have sucked to have your station designated for the #14 only, making all local stops east of Bway Junction with the #15 going express.
First time on the scene today..home repairs yet you know. The answer has been given by Chris R16..I think I found one flaw though, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Guess the JJ discontinuance was upon the creation of the KK line; for some reason I thought the KK came about with the Nov 67 merger but I could be wrong. In any event add the KK (later just K) to the list of trains that made the local stops when the J or earlier yet the QJ ran express. The K was the train that ran to and from 57/6 north of Essex. Part of the grandplan to lighten the burden on the E and F lines but very regrettably it never caught on and was completely dicontinues --I think in l975 or 76; from then on the J made all stops past B'way/ Myrtle.Spoiled a fun express ride on that nice el straightaway; pity.
Yes, the KK took over from the JJ on 7/1/68, the day the new 57th/6th Ave. terminal stop opened. Running the KK as the local doomed it to failure.
Yes, about a dozen of us walked the SIRT north shore line today in the heat, through the over-growth, and over some very muddy swamp-like terrain. We walked through the remains of a few stations. It was one of our more difficult hikes, but interesting. Keep in mind the previous time this tour was scheduled it was snowed out. It did not snow today.
Oh--and thanks go again to Mark W. for his role as tour guide.
Did anyone take photographs....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hank did. See his post.
It will, unfortunately, be a few days. I was requested to work overtime, and I currently have no time during the week to work on the photos. I expect to have them up by Saturday night. ALl that's left to do is resize them so they're less unweildy.
-Hank
no problem, I get photos of the canal street station being rebuilt.
I need to send them to dave.
I'm sorry I missed you guy. The Five Boroughs Bike Tour was going on, and I got caught in traffic.
Met Mark W. and several others at Port Richmond for the SIR walk 5/7/00. Will post some pictures later, since I haven't made it home yet.
-Hank
FYI, we walked approximately 4 miles, but that's driving via Richmond Terrace, and doesn't cout our walk backwards toward the end of the viaduct. I hope to be able to post the pictures shortly. I've downloaded them from the camera, and renamed the files appropriately. I need just to resize them so they can be downloaded in a reasonable amout of time.
-Hank
Rosanne and I walked a total of about 6.5 miles including the walk from the end of the tour to our car which was parked on Gulf Road.
05/08/2000
When I walked the LIRR Rocakway Line back 1990, the total trip for me was 4.2 miles, that was devised by taking an odometer reading on my car and multiplying it by 2. So roughly that was how much I walked. I am not sure if your walk was one way or round trip, but when I walked the "Rock" it was early spring and had a light jacket on. being it was a scorcher yesterday, I hope you guys had water and took a rest in the shade. How long was your tour and did you encounter any problems?
Bill Newkirk
We stopped in a store before we left and some people bought drinks. We did take a few breaks along the way, and at one point Mark found a way off of the ROW and offered it as a way out if anyone wanted to leave. I think a few people did leave, but I wasn't paying much attention to it since we were in for the duration. The plant growth along part of the ROW was a problem but we managed to get through it. Another problem was the mud in a few spots that resembled a swamp. There was no problem where we began. That is, we started at street level, and we ended at street level. We exited the ROW through a hole in a fence at Arlington Place and South Street just before the line entered Port Ivory. Most of the group took a bus back to St.George, Hank took one back to Port Richmond where his car was, and Rosanne and I walked back to our car near the Goethals Bridge. The total mileage on the ROW was about 3.5 or 4 miles. We started at about 12N and ended about 2:30.
What is the fastest way Mid Week, Mid Day, from LaGuardia to Grand Central. The Q 33 bus to Jackson Hts and then 7 Train, or the M 60 bus to 125th Lex and the 4/5 Train
Interesting question. My instinct is to stay away from any motor vehicle across the city's rivers, but the Lex express certainly would be a lot quicker than a Flushing local. I presume you are setting your time frame so that there is no express. I think we need someone who has had more experience commuting through the airpot. Todd, where are you?
Bob, I've done both repeatedly. In fact, monthly (or more) for 20+ years.
The Q33/7 is a consistent 50 minutes, +/-5 depending upon traffic in Jackson Heights. The M60 can get really bogged down on the Triboro and/or 125th street, making it a 60+ minute ride. If you're looking to minimize ride time, I'd go for the Q33/7.
I would take whichever comes first, M60 or Q33. BUT....
Take the M60 only as far as the N line Astoria Blvd. station on 31 St. in Queens, then take the N into Manhattan.
Also if you take the Q33 to Jackson Heights, taking the E/F into Manhattan is possibly faster than the #7.
Going back to LGA, take the E/F to Roosevelt Avenue, then the Q33.
WHAT: The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy, a non-profit organization of
historians, architects, artists, educators and other professionals, is
sponsoring walking tours of local historic landmarks during National
Preservation Week, May 14-20, 2000.
WHEN/WHERE: The following tours are scheduled:
* The Bergen Arches, May 14th, 10AM (meet at 10th & Brunswick Streets)
* The Warehouse District (self-guided; download from website) which includes the H&MRR Powerhouse
* The Barrow Mansion, 83 Wayne Street, May 20th, doors open 12-4PM
Bonus Tours:
* The Pennsylvania Railroad Harsimus Stem Embankment, May 21, 1PM (meet at
6th & Brunswick Streets)
* Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Historical Tour, May 21, 4PM (meet at Exchange
Place stop)
Background info on these events/sites can be found on our web site, www.jerseycityhistory.net
Topping the agenda of the Landmarks Conservancy starting in the year 2000:
* A major preservation campaign for Jersey City's last great architectural
monument on the waterfront––the wondrous Hudson & Manhattan Railroad
Powerhouse, a 1906 Romanesque Revival industrial structure that the New York
Times has hailed as a "cathedral...a masterpiece of brickwork."
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of Jersey City's few
remaining cobblestone streets, including those located in the Heights,
Communipaw, and Downtown.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the stone walls of
the Jersey City Waterworks Reservoir located in the Heights between Central
and Summit Avenues. The Reservoir, with its graceful Egyptian Revival
design, was erected around 1850, making it the oldest large-scale stone
structure in Jersey City today.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the Bergen Arches, a
turn-of-the-twentieth century railroad cut commissioned by the Lackawanna
Railroad. The Arches, which stretch from the foot of Dickinson High School
to the western edge of Jersey City, consist of a narrow corridor of brick
arches and chiseled cliffs that soar up to one hundred feet high. Until
recently the Arches, abandoned for sixty years, have become a natural
habitat for vegetation and wild life. However, recent federal funding has
permitted a transportation feasibility study to be conducted. As a result
much of the dense vegetation has been cleared.
* An awareness campaign calling for the preservation of the Medical Center
Complex, including the Margaret Hague Maternity Hospital. The Medical
Center, designed by Jersey City's most prolific architect, John Rowland,
will be abandoned soon when the hospital's new Downtown location is
completed. The Margaret Hague Hospital, where a large percentage of Hudson
County residents were born, has been abandoned and deteriorating for nearly
twenty-five years.
The Landmarks Conservancy also supports the following preservation
campaigns:
* The massive Sixth Street Pennsylvania Railroad Embankment, designed by
James J. Ferris, for whom a local high school is named. The Embankment,
which was recently listed on the State & National Registers of Historic
Places, once led to the Harsimus Cove freight yard (now Avalon Cove, a
sprawling residential complex).
* The Apple Tree House on Academy Street, a colonial home at the heart of
Old Bergen Township, where it is said George Washington visited. The City
plans to house an historical museum here.
CONTACT:
John K. Gomez, Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy
P.O. Box 68, Jersey City, NJ 07303-0068
www.jerseycityhistory.net
Too bad the Bergen Arches tour is on Mothers' Day - otherwise I would try and participate, my somewhat limited walking ability notwithstanding (after all, I did manage to do the Polo Grounds shuttle, thanks to some assistance from Jr. and a couple of other SubTalkers).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Arches are a veritable trash heap. Lost count of the old tires and wheel rims. Spotted half a motorcycle. The place needs a serious clean up. As for being "narrow," it's wide enough for four tracks. In fact, there is still an isolated piece of track in the cut, with some 4-5 inch thick trees growing between the rails. Kind of reminds me of part of the abandoned Rockaway line.
Leslie Stahl did a report on new mental illness laws in New York State that force paitents to take their medicine, and focused on Charles Stevens (LIRR samurai sword attacker), Andrew Goldstein (who pushed the woman in front of the N train at 23rd and Broadway) and James Sachs (less dangerous, only kissed the floor at Penn Station) and their treatement under the new laws.
The opposing idea, that making these people take their medication is a violation of civil rights, was pretty much blown away by Steven's mother, who asked what about her rights not to be pushed in front of a train by a violent, crazy son. Still, the report said the law was facing court challenge, so it will probably depend on which judge it gets assigned to as to whether or not it survives.
On a lighter note, Sachs was at the Union Square station when a train of Redbirds came in, turned to Stahl and said "We got a new one!" And, yes, he was supposed to be on his medication at the time.
Notice the association between mental illness, violence, and mass transit. The implication is that the subway is the place to be afraid of people who are off their medication.
On the other hand, the assumption is that those who lash out in road rage ARE sane.
The Albanian research sais that a dayly ride in ANY subway equals a recomended doze od Thorazine.
Arti
I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.
.........un-named president and my former idiot state of california ex govonor...... RONALD REAGAN.......
with his cut the funding off them off and kill them his hatred of the working class and working poor
his belief that all homeless are that way because they want to be ....( totally insane )..............
and finally the rich mans president ........RONALD REGAN..... and his side kicks bush and quail !!!
the latest republican president....bill clinton. !! i saw 60 minutes tonight the mentally ill should be taken care of !!
I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.
Why is this a good thing? There is a certain sense of satisfaction to the thought of ex-President Reagan wandering the streets, impoverished, as a result of his own policies.
CH.
isnt he ...ex president regan suffering from some kind of alzheimers association mental disorder breakdown ??
probably also when he was our govonor and then president as well !!
To anyone knowledgeable about LACMTA: Is it true that the Division # is permanently painted onto the bus? I have seen this in movies, tv shows, etc. I spotted this on the back of a certain bus. Please comment. Thanks.
[[I also resent the implications. They are not just on transit but they are also on the streets. Record numbers of people who needed help were turned out on the streets in the 80's when an unnamed President cut the funding for their facilities. Good thing he has private (federal pension) insurance or he would be turned out too.]
[Why is this a good thing? There is a certain sense of satisfaction to the thought of ex-President Reagan wandering the streets,
impoverished, as a result of his own policies.]
IIRC, the "deinstitutionalization" program well predates Reagan's presidency. Patient counts in most mental hospitals have been declining since at least the late 1950's. And I suspect that the problem of the mentally ill using subways as a refuge also goes back many years.
True. The big push to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill occurred in New York City in the early 1970s, after Geraldo Rivera's reports on the abuses at Willobrook that made him a star at WABC. The city and state responded by closing the wards and releasing people onto the streets, but the city, state and federal government never provided the support needed to keep track on most of those released and keep their problems under control, if possible, with medications.
The reports and the scandal broke when Lindsey and Beame were mayors, Rocky and Malcolm Wilson were governor and Nixon was president. Reagan was finishing off his term in California at the time, so I guess we can wish Alzheimer's on to the remaining survivors of the afformentioned group. And what the heck, throw Geraldo in there too -- after all, he started the whole thing.
[The big push to deinstitutionalize the mentally ill occurred in New York City in the early 1970s, after Geraldo Rivera's reports on the abuses at Willobrook that made him a star at WABC. The city and state responded by closing the wards and releasing people onto the streets, but the city, state and federal government never provided the support needed to keep track on most of those released and keep their problems under control, if possible, with medications.]
You may be right about the dates, but wasn't Willowbrook for the mentally retarded rather than the mentally ill?
It was for the people with severe mental retardation who were unable to or whose families were unable to care for them. But after the reports aired the overreation set in, and the pedlium swung too far in the other direction. Instead of locking everyone with mental disabilites or problems up, they started releasing everyone to either other care facilities or into the general population, but in that case without funding for after-care support.
Most people remember the effect of the latter part, which is why the brief dust-up Giuliani had last year with Hillary about his plans to detain the homeless failed to strike a chord with the population the way Mrs. Clinton hoped it would.
how do you feel about persons who are mental & physical disabled being denied ssi and then forced into
the welfare rolls instead ?? what about those innocent victims or reganomics ??
[re Geraldo's Willowbrook expose]
[It was for the people with severe mental retardation who were unable to or whose families were unable to care for them.]
Back in the late 1960's, there was a full-length documentary film called "Titicuit Follies" that exposed the ghastly conditions at the Titicuit mental hospital in Massachusetts. It has been described as about 1000% more brutal and shocking than Geraldo's work at Willowbrook. As far as I can recall reading, the state mental health department had allowed the filmmakers into the institution thinking that they were going to make a much softer, educational-type documentary. You wonder how these bureaucrats could have been so naive. After the film came out, the officials in Boston went totally ballistic, and got a court order preventing its distribution. Their claim was that the film would violate the privacy of the patients (I don't know why the filmmakers didn't blur the patients' faces and avoid these issues). "Titicuit Follies" remained snagged in the court system and very rarely seen for twenty or more years. By the time it finally got off the restricted list, deinstitutionalization had made it largely irrelevant.
Pardon me if this was posted before, but I'm wondering how does the MTA determine which type of cars should go on a particular line? Apart from the obvious in the tunnel clearances and curves for IRT, BMT-eastern , and IND/BMT-western. More specifically, why does the N have 3 types of cars and the D have only 1 type if the cars can run on both lines? ... and why the redbirds mainly inhabit the 2 & 5 while the R62 100% inhabit the 1 & 3?
All decisions regarding car assignemnts (except for one celebrated instance) are made by the 'Operations/Planning' department. The only exception was when the General Superintendent of Coney island Maintenance Shop decided that it made more sense from a maintenance standpoint to run R-68 on the B and Slant 40s on the Q. There was an initial outcry from the community and some in Operations Planning. However, the performance of both fleets has surged and the community anguish has subsided. Seems like everyone now agrees that it was a good move.
A major factor in determining assignments is the number of cars of each type available and the shop and yard capacities. Usually you want one type of car at each shop to simplefy parts inventories. The major exception seems to be the R-32s, which are somewhat spread around. But as examples the R-46s are all at Jamaica, R-38 and R-44 split between Pitken and 207th, all R-68 at Concourse and so on. The same holds on having the 1/9 shop be all R-62 and the 3 (nine car trains) all R-62A.
Coney Island and some other locations have multiple car types by necessity - there aren't enough cars of one type to serve these locations.
>>> all R-68 at Concourse <<<
All R-68's are not at Concourse.
ANDEE
>>> The same holds on having the 1/9 shop be all R-62 <<<
1/9's are R-62a's the only line running R-62's is the 4.
ANDEE
Concourse Shop has all R-68s but does not have all of the R-68s. For southern maintenance shops, here is the distribution of car fleets.
Jamaica Shop - All R-46, R-32 Phase I, R-32 Phase II
East NY Shop - R-40S, R-40M and R-42
Coney Island Shop - R-32 Phase II, R-40S, R-68, All R-68A
Concourse Shop - R-68
Pitkin Shop - All R-44, R-32 Phase I
207th St. Shop - All R-38, R-32 GE, R-110B (last 6)
My friends always wanna know why the Trains are local on Saturday. I also have a question. Do all Subway Trains go local on Saturday? My friend said they were riding the Lex line, waiting at 68street for an uptown 6, but they gotta 4 instead. They said no 4's and 5's were going express. Is this a Tower ordered move? or do some Trains go express on Saturday and weekends? Also, I saw something kinda Extraordinary. I think (Correct me if I am incorrect) That the 2(7th avenue express, White plains RD) uses the R29 Redbird equipment and the 3(lenox avenue) uses the R62-R62A's. However, last week, I heard my Mom,(a 2,3) rider say that the 2 she rode was Grey(R62) and the 3 she rode home was Red. Huh? I thought It was supposed 2 be reversed? Does this happen often? or was it a Subway Car OOPS?
In Manhattan, the #2, #3, #4, #5, A, B, and D trains are scheduled to run express on weekends, at least during most of the day. However, track work often results in scheduled diversions, and an incident (stalled train, etc.) can cause an unscheduled diversion.
As noted, Redbirds (R-33s, not R-29s) are assigned to #2 service and silver trains (stainless steel R-62As) are assigned to #3 service. Usually the equipment is not swapped between the two routes, especially since #3 trainsets are 9 cars long and #2 trainsets are 10 cars long. Perhaps the "silver" train was actually a #5; two 10-car R-62A sets from the #6 line are used in #5 service during the day and are broken up into 4 OPTO 5-car sets at night for Dyre Avenue shuttle service.
David
Hey folks - this morning NPR did a piece on a remarkable subway Elevator Operator. He works at 181 St on the IND, and apparently has an elevator full of pictures, with music and plants. Interesting story, here is a link:
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=05/07/2000&PrgID=10
you can listen to is by strolling down to the story called "elevator man." You need real audio.
Today as I was railfanning on the Frankford branch of the Market Frankford Line, I heard the T/O announce that there was a broken rail at 60st Station. I did not have time to go there and check it out, but it seems as is my train was directly involved with it somehow. Even so, the rides were still interesting. As I just went from 8th and Market to Frankford and back, my train left Frankford right after it entered it (unusual for a Sunday). Going from Frankford to 8th, we skipped 4 stops, and stopped first at Allegheny, not a normal service pattern. A train follwed right behind us, so I figure it must have been the train I took up to Frankford that was directly involved with any accidents (which would be on the eastbound track), and that delayed traffic, the skip-stop was to get back on schedule.
In other news, I hear that there was still a G.O. on Broad Street Southbound, 3 stations being out of service. Perfect for the weekend of the Broad Street Run, which closed the street for the whole morning.
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club is a new webpage created by NYC Transit employees. It not only provides links to all of your favorite Transit sites but is is also a web portal powered by Dotplanet, an up and coming isp that you will hear much about in the future. Dotplanet has a world class search engine, shopping, news, sports, chat, free email, personalized stock quotes, weather, tv and movie listings. To access the site type http://www. dotplanet.com/groups/default.asp?gid=13714 into your browser. Then you will need to fill out a simple registration to join the web portal which will entitle you to free email and other great features. Please enter registration #290EA and thats all there is to it. Don't forget to bookmark the page. Hope you enjoy our page and keep coming back. Robert DiStefano,Train Service Supervisor.
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club is a new webpage created by NYC Transit employees. It not only provides links to all of your favorite Transit sites but is is also a web portal powered by ---------, an up and coming isp that you will hear much about in the future.
[sniff, sniff.] I smell spam. Do you get kickbacks from your portal for advertising their services?
CH.
It is definitely not spam. Check out the site and see weather it is legit or not. You are free to use it or not use it. You will not receive any solicitations. Robert DiStefano
Getting the popular 'can't find server' error message when I try to go to the site you mentioned.
I'm assuming you did a cut-and-paste from his post. He hit the space bar at one point which will give you that error (I got it too).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How many of you went on the subtalk trip yesterday? Mark W. gets my personal thanks. The temp and hot sun was the real killer.
Were there ever any Pix of the Roosevelt terminal visit posted here or elsewere? Please if anyone has info of new or old posted photoes let me or the board know.
Many thanks
avid
I went on the field trip with Mark W's trip and encountered a very funny subtalker. His laught was hysterical. Hank was there, anyone know what his name is?
I thought we were too busy sweating to laugh.
Hi, there. I am curious if anyone rode the "F" Shuttle bus between Stillwell and Kings Highway the last two weekends. If so, can anyone tell me whether any fare was collected/transfers issued on the bus, especially K.H. bound? I do know that transfers were accepted at but not issued at K.H.Station. What about Stillwell, or the intervening bus stops? Please respond. Thanks.
I got into a discussion with another former New Yorker over the weekend, regarding Fulton Lex rush hour service before Oct 13th, 1950.
He acknowledged the service but claimed that there were never any steel signs lettered for the gate cars for Grant Ave. I claim that eastbound the trains displayed
Fulton-Lex Line
Grant Ave
and westbound they displayed
Fulton-Lex Line
Bridge-Jay St
Is there a historian out there who can back me up on the existence of a Grant Ave sign? If it existed, did it say Grant Ave, Grant Av or Grant Avenue?
The train service is not in question, the existence of the sign is the question.
My excursions into Brooklyn didn't begin until l955 (except for family trips to Coney Island) so I can't say anything about Fulton-Lex service. But I'm almost positive I'd seen the C types, and an occasional l300 type BU with Grant Av. signs.. think that was the abbreviation; as some "Fulton" trains turned back at Grant. Most of the line was on either Pitkin or Liberty Ave, the run on Fulton only one stop to Rockaway Ave. Aloso the Lefferts signs still said Lefferts Av. long after it was renamed a boulevard.
I know a guy that has one of those Lefferts Ave signs, and he keeps it packed away in a box. If it were mine, I would have it up on a wall where I could enjoy it. I think it is neat how the BMT called it Ave instead of Blvd. We had a thread here about a year ago as to when Ave actually became Blvd, but we were never able to tie it down as to when.
I do not remember if there was a Grant Ave Station on the old El, The current Grant Ave Station came into existance when they extended the A to Lefferts Blvd in the mid 50s
There was definately a Grant Ave el station. It was a wooden center platform station, which I used on many occasions. It was also the eastern terminus of the Fulton-Lex Line during rush hour.
My dispute with my friend was not over the existence of the station, but whether a Grant Ave sign existed in use on the BU cars.
I used to walk to my dentist after school. His office was at Grant & Liberty. Afterwards I would pay the nickel or dime fare, and ride the gate cars to Eastern Parkway, run up a flight of stairs, then down a flight to the other platform, where I would try to catch a rush hour Lex gate train to 111th St. I normally got off at Crescent St, but if I had extra time, I would ride to 111th St, go thru the stair bit again, and catch still another gate train back to Crescent St.
This was one hell of a roundabout way of getting home, and it caused my mother to get upset with me, but it sure was a great way to ride three different gate trains.
The BU's out of Grant Ave were always 1300 series. Those to 111th St were a mixture of 600's, 900's, 1200's or 1400's (there were only two gate cars carrying 1400 numbers).
Boy you are really showing your age. I barely remember the Lex and Fulton El.
And the term "Fulton el" to me refers to the portion of the J line over Fulton St. So I'm even younger....lol
Hope this answers your question:
www.bmt-lines.com
Thank You very much! You have made my day! I have printed your response, and will show it to him with great glee when I see him later this week.
My compliments to you on a really nice looking sign. When you find signs like that today, they are never in that kind of shape. I'm sure you realize that sign's last day of use was Oct 13th 1950, almost fifty years ago.
OK I was wrong about the abbreviation! Oh well. I'd assume they still used those signs until April l956 when the "Fulton St" el died and service east (south in railroad direction) of Grant Ave. was assumed by the A train via the new connection.
You're right! They did still use the signs until the connection was complete, but the signs for Fulton-Lex Line, Lexington Av Line, Grant Avenue, and 111th St had no use after the "Last Lex" in 1950.
Signs for Eastern Pkway, Rockaway Ave and Lefferts Ave were still being used until the subway-el connection was complete. They would have had to use them in the "C's" or the "Q's" because all of the 1300 series BU's were transferred to Fresh Pond Yards for use on the "Myrt".
You lived in Brooklyn and I lived in the Bronx so I shouldn't see otherwise... but I did ride the "Fulton" in its last l0 months roughly and had ridden a l300 BU set once! Beleieve I had seen one go by on other occasions. The beloved Q's never ran on Fulton. From Queens they went to 3rd Ave. then to Myrtle. I'm almopst positive there was a train turned at Grant Ave. once in a while, if not a rush hour short line it was done for track work. see ya later. Hate to say it but I' addicted to this subtalk thing!
"Hate to say it but I' addicted to this subtalk thing!"
That's the same thing I said two years ago. But be warned, leave it for more than 3 days and you'll be so left out of everything, that you will not know where to start.
You may be right about the 1300's. I thought that the only ones retained at East New York were those used for the work trains involved in the IND connection. The old turnaround track between Grant and Hudson seemed to always have a work train setting in it, and 99% of the time they were powered by 1300's.
You may have liked the "C's" and "Q's", but I hated them. I thought of them as gate cars that had lost their original identity. I was young at the time, but I would go out of my way not to ride on them.
Don't let the addiction interfere with those renovations. Remember, when the house is done, you will have more time for the layout. I'm still counting on you for a three car set of custom built 900's in 0 gauge. :)
Thanks for the positive thoughts on more layout time later. Can't say the C's or Q's were my favorites but indeed I always liked them. After all they were from the awesome generation. The C's were as ugly a homemade remodel as you could ask for but moved. The Q's, especially in their days on 3rd Ave. and first few years on Myrt were very handsome indeed but miserably underpowered with the composite trucks the IRT div. put under thjem, not enough power to have trailers in a set. But they were classics.
I have often been puzzled as to why they went to all that trouble to restore the end platforms and gate hardware to those re-rebuilt Q's in the museum. It must have been a major undertaking and I wonder why they did not restore the clerestory roofs at the same time. I guess they left the composite trucks under them because the correct trucks had long since gone to a scrap yard. The absence of the Van Dorn couplers also is so obvious.
Karl, don't forget the de-construction of those 3 BQ cars,
as we like to call them, was performed when Court Street was
just getting started. It was called the "Transit Exhibit"
back then. It was not a museum, it was a nostalgic exhibit
of old trains. The logic at the time was that it was more
important to convey the "feel" of the BU cars than to attempt
an authentic, museum-quality restoration, which would have been
very difficult anyway because of the lack of mechanical equipment.
To that end, they are successful. The average visitor gets the
point of the open platforms, the gates, the rattan seats, the
wood body, etc. They don't notice the huge H-2 head, they don't
look under the platform and say "hey, where the heck are the
Peckham 40 motor trucks?", and they don't know that the etched glass
BRT logo on the cab doors was not used on the "real" 1400s.
Nowadays, Court Street is the New York Transit Museum. They
have a curator and follow accepted museum practices with their
collection. If the same conversion project were to be suggested
today I doubt it would be approved.
In a way, it is unfortunate
that a Q or QX set was not preserved, as these cars had historic
value, ugly as they may have been, in their final configuration as
the last wooden transit cars to run in the U.S.
Incidentally, raising the roof back to original specs would make
those cars extremely difficult to handle. I'm not sure how far
they'd get in the tunnel before they found a clearance problem.
At one time in the late 1970s someone from Court Street approached
Branford about borrowing or acquiring one of the BUs, but when we
reminded them of the dimmensions that was the end of it.
Jeff, I gripe a lot but do realize that "half a loaf is better than none". I'm glad that they are there, even if they don't look right.
Height wasn't always a problem, was it? I thought that the composite trucks made the cars set higher than the original. In other words, if they could have put the correct trucks back under the cars, they probably could have restored the cars to the original configuration with clerestory roofs. Am I wrong about this?
Are all of the BU's at Branford still on their correct trucks?
The composite trucks did put the cars over the edge height-wise,
but that was 40 years ago. As they found out the hard way with
the Low-V fantrips, not every tunnel clearance remains constant
over the years. The BUs, on their original trucks, are 12'8"
to 12'10" high. All of the B division equipment today is 12'2".
That becomes the de-facto standard and a lot of times the track is
raised up or conduits are run on the tunnel roof. I'm pretty sure
there's no way a 12'8" car is making it into Court Street.
All of Branford's BU cars retained their correct trucks, at least
as of the time of their retirement. We have 4 BUs plus 197,
a Kings County elevated trailer. The 600s were built with Brill
trucks, the 1200s and 1300s with Peckhams, and the 1400s with
ALCos. When the Qs got the so-called Composite trucks (which of
course were not the original Composite trucks but the IRT home-made
jobs from 1912), the ALCo motor trucks went to the remaining 1300s.
Therefore, 1349 and 1362 have those trucks which limits them to
the 1950s in terms of restoration plan. At some earlier time, 659
received Peckham 40 motor trucks which unfortunately precludes its
restoration to a center-door car, unless we can come up with a set
of Brill 27G trucks and WH50E motors! 1227 still has the original
Peckham 40 trucks and could theoretically be back-dated to 1903
with some body work to restore the trap steps, drop-down window
sash and some electrical work.
Thank you Jeff! I have certainly learned much more about my favorite cars from your posts over the last year.
I have a question for you which you may not be able to answer. My favorite BU's were the 900's (particularly #902). Unfortunately none of these cars were preserved anywhere. They had some notable differences from the other BU's. The first thing that comes to mind were the extremely high stormdoor windows. I always had the feeling that this series had slightly taller cars than the others.
Do you know what kind of trucks these cars rode on? Was I correct in remembering that these cars were slightly taller?
My copy of "The Brooklyn Elevated" shows indeed that the earlier cars had higher rooves, likewise some of my photos. This would be all pre-l200 series. The l000 type was also lower but they were arch roof. So you're right on that account, but I must advise that the BRT el fleet was quite a hodgepodge and there were variations within number series below the l000's. Soo to say not all 900's, or 600's and in 2 cases 700's are identical. Can't help you on trucks.
Karl, the only drawings I've seen indicate that the 900s were
about the same height as the 1000s-1400s. Only some of the 700s
and 800s, which were rebuilt from steam coaches, were higher,
coming in a few inches over 13 feet!
The 900s were probably delivered on Brill 27E trucks but
later in life received the BRT standard Peckham 40s.
Those of you who did not get detailed shots of HBLR train sets are out of luck. I noticed over this weekend that skirts have been installed over the trucks. It gives the cars a streamlined appearance, but does not allow good photos.
Skirts make for a good appearence, but are a problem in a derailment.
Skirts came in basically with the PCC, especially Chicago, Pacific Electric and Shaker Rapid's Pullmans. Most Brilliners came with skirts, most properties that had (a) Brilliner removed the skirts after the first derailment.
Chicago kept theirs despite derailments and accidents, Shaker cut holes in the front skirts for the trip arms used on the joint trackage with CTS, and Ferrocarril General Urquesil (FGCU) removed the skirts from the ex-PE cars they bought.
In short, they look great, just don't derail or hit anything and untrack.
But there purpose here is simple-ruduce the noise.
-Hank
But skirts are still a problem in derailments and I doubt a simple skirt reduces noise much, plus with the resilient wheels used today, the only noise is wheel-on-rail, which skirts do little to suppress, as they have to have sufficient ground clearance to prevent contact.
But how often do you have a derailment?
-Hank
And what exactly is the problem in the case of derailments?
1. The skirts get damaged. If on "T" rail, they are bent when the truck hits the ties.
2. The skirts get in the way of the crews doing the rerailing, and are removed to make the job easier.
In Baltimore, we have already have experienced a LRV derailment that resulted from operator error. A 3-car train was run through a reversed switch at 25 MPH, breaking the switch and derailing all 3 cars. It took the crews 7 1/2 hours to rerail the cars, repair the switch and the 125 feet of track that was torn up by the untrackment. If our cars had come with skirts, I suspect that the MTA would have had them removed from the rest of the cars.
Seems like the skirts are a minor problem on top of all that!
We don't have skirts. We'll never know if the skirts would have been a problem.
Does anyone have an informed view of the merits, or lack thereof, of the JFK rail system. I realize that it has been much criticized at this site, because it is objectively less desirable than a service utilizing the old Rockaway LIRR connection (which is presently moribund.) But I don't think the airlines were willing to approve the cost of building a new heavy rail line along that right of way with airport funds. Given that funding limitation, is the proposed system the best alternative?
First of all, we don't allow "informed" views on SubTalk.
Secondly, you seem to think that the airlines have control over all possible sources of funding. The best alternative would have been to do it right with a different source of funds.
Well, that is easy enough to say. But given the tremendous demand that the new 2nd Avenue Subway creates, add the demand for the LIRR East Side Connection, then factor in worthy projects like the LaGuardia extension, the extension of the #7 to the far west side, and the conversion of the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line to subway service, and it is clear that no alternative mass transit funds are available for the JFK project.
Non sequitor. Just because other things are in the works or dreamed of doesn't mean that money isn't available. The NYC economy is huge. The NYS economy is even bigger. Not everything has to be paid for with federal grants.
As an aside, what is that nonsense about turning the Atlantic Branch into a subway doing on your list of "worthy" projects?
The idea of turning the Atlantic branch into transit service is one that has been advocated by some transit policy groups. I do not really know all of the details as to why this would be a good idea. Do you not agree that it would be a good idea? If not, why not?
The line already duplicates the Brooklyn Fulton line. There should be no reason why this idea should even come up.
Converting the Atlantic Ave LIRR ROW into a subway line would provide a nice express service to take the pressure off J/M and A/C AND to some extent help E/F AND if extended past Jamaica to Valley Stream would provide NEW service, however once you get to Atlantic Ave with the trains you would have a capacity problem getting to lower Manhattan.
Therefore converting without another tunnel or bridge would be a bad idea.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, this raises an interesting issue. I have noticed that in the great debate as to what major transportation projects to fund no one has focused on building a new tunnel to connect the LIRR branch through downtown Brooklyn under the East River to the Financial District. Yet, with the great growth in downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District that is presently occurring, this might actually be an excellent choice from an economic development perspective.
They should've kept the Chestnut Street connection!!!
They should've kept the Chestnut Street
connection!!!
There has been some proposals to use the Nassau Loop, i.e. LIRR would come North & terminate at Chambers or Canal, while J/Z/M would come South off WillyB probally only as far as Chambers. This doesn't solve the East River capacity problem, and unless the new LIRR service was TA would also create a fare problem within the Nassau Loop.
To me it's only half a plan, i.e. much more money would need to be spend putting in additional tracks in Manhattan in addition to a new tunnel for it add service, take pressure off Penn Station and not have a bad effect on existing Brooklyn customers.
Mr t__:^)
Since the powers that be probably plan on cursing the N line to its present existence (will there ever be trains on the BMT-Broadway subway express tracksagain) how about the South side of the Manhattan Bridge? Some dry land surgery would be better (between Flatbush & Atlantic to the bridge) than building a new under-river tunnel. Clearances for LIRR cars are another story even within the Nassau loop.. on the bridge too? I wouldn't hold my breath though, doubt that we'll see any such service.
These issues are probably behind the related proposal to convert the LIRR Atlantic terminal service to MTA standards and make it part of the subway. If this were done, then perhaps you could engineer cross-platform connections at Jamaica between the LIRR and MTA service to downtown Brooklyn, with continuing service through to downtown Manhattan, via bridge or new tunnel. I am uncertain of how to handle the fare control issue. Perhaps it should be considered as part of the LIRR for fare purposes, even though it uses subway cars. In theory, this would be a nice addition to transit in NYC. But I wonder if the cost-benefit analysis would support it.
This idea interests me quite a bit. Has it been formally studied? Are the studies available (hopefully on-line)?
[There has been some proposals to use the Nassau Loop, i.e. LIRR would come North & terminate at Chambers or Canal, while J/Z/M would come South off WillyB probally only as far as Chambers. This doesn't solve the East River capacity problem, and unless the new LIRR service was TA would also create a fare problem within the Nassau Loop.
To me it's only half a plan, i.e. much more money would need to be spend putting in additional tracks in Manhattan in addition to a new tunnel for it add service, take pressure off Penn Station and not have a bad effect on existing Brooklyn customers.
Mr t__:^)]
Both the Nassau Street and Broadway lines are currently underutilized. If you tied the Atlantic Avenue branch into the BMT, you could run B div size hybrid commuter trains and high amenity superexpress shuttles on a 4 minute headway right into the Broadway Line. Add a link at East New York and you could run peak service to the Nassau Street stations, bringing headway down to 2 minutes. You could also offer direct Airtrain service to Lower Manhattan via Broadway, continuing on to Laguardia via the N/R extension. And while you're at it, bring peak Metro North and Bronx superexpress service the other way on the Broadway line, via the Park Avenue and 63rd Street tunnels.
If that cut into subway service, the handful of stations that served the commuter trains and superexpresses could be lengthened. Infrastructure changes: connections at Atlantic Avenue, East New York, the 63rd Street tunnel; some new or modified multimode B division trains; some degree of station renovation.
Excellent ideas. If only as I thought of previously be able to route LIRR over the MannyB-- at the Manhattan end could be routed via Nassau or via Broadway... the old BMT routes restored albeit with both services on the south side of the bridge. I appreciate your idea Josh... it may happen in my lifetime but don't bet on it.
[Excellent ideas. If only as I thought of previously be able to route LIRR over the MannyB-- at the Manhattan end could be routed via Nassau or via Broadway... the old BMT routes restored albeit with both services on the south side of the bridge. I appreciate your idea Josh... it may happen in my lifetime but don't bet on it.]
Hey, suppose you did this:
A and C combine on local tracks west of Lafayette Avenue--they go to two tracks anyway so there would be no difference in capacity
LIRR/superexpress trains replace A at Atlantic Avenue station and run onto Court Street stub, then join the F, which has half its capacity free, west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn
Extend the old stub from chambers street one block to just east of East Broadway
That would be much faster than going over either the Manhattan or Williamsburg Bridges and would have absolutely no effect on subway frequency.
Guess you're thinking harder than I am. Any number of possibilities with very little new trackage and excavation considering the potential benefits.lIKE A FEW OTHER PEOPLE I wish we'd see BMT-B'way Express service back one way or another so I don't even think of more 6th Ave service. I'm still full of thoughts on how the only benefit of what construction they've done is stop at Roosevelt Island, and E and J services shortened; so therefore that doesn't leave me much optimism. Of course the big thing that shouild have been done was 2nd Ave. With 4 tracks south of 63rd that could have offered a downtown LIRR service too. Stick with the idea making; maybe the powers that be will get some ideas.
[Guess you're thinking harder than I am. Any number of possibilities with very little new trackage and excavation considering the potential benefits.lIKE A FEW OTHER PEOPLE I wish we'd see BMT-B'way Express service back one way or another so I don't even think of more 6th Ave service. I'm still full of thoughts on how the only benefit of what construction they've done is stop at Roosevelt Island, and E and J services shortened; so therefore that doesn't leave me much optimism. Of course the big thing that shouild have been done was 2nd Ave. With 4 tracks south of 63rd that could have offered a downtown LIRR service too. Stick with the idea making; maybe the powers that be will get some ideas.]
Sadly, there are plenty of good ideas. Everything is done in a political, half-assed way, and we end up spending billions on trains to nowhere like the Q or the Airtrain, or fabulously expensive projects that sit idle and unused like the 63rd Street tunnel. Everyone knows that the Airtrain should have used the Rockaway Branch and offered service to the business districts. The Federal Government studies overcrowding on the E and F, and concluded what anyyone else would--that the trains should be lengthened, because they stations were designed for longer trains! They proposed a Queens Superexpress but it was killed by NIMBY's. The Laguardia Extension is being killed by Valone and the NJ members of the Port Authority, who won't let the MTA build the line to the terminals because they don't want it to compete with Newark Airport. And so on and so on.
[Yes, this raises an interesting issue. I have noticed that in the great debate as to what major transportation projects to fund no one has focused on building a new tunnel to connect the LIRR branch through downtown Brooklyn under the East River to the Financial District. Yet, with the great growth in downtown Brooklyn and the Financial District that is presently occurring, this might actually be an excellent choice from an economic development perspective.]
It's been suggested--check out the MTA's Lower Manhattan Access Study.
Part of the problem with these studies is that none of them study the region's overall transportation needs, so they often work at cross purposes to one another. Considering that billions of dollars are at stake, you'd think they'd do a more comprehensive analysis. Right now they're talking about building a new tunnel from NJ to a Penn Annex, then to the GCT lower level and a freight tunnel to the Sunnyside Yards. But it seems to me that it would make much more sense to build the NJT tunnel to the World Trade Center, take it across Manhattan, and join it to the Atlantic Avenue Branch. That would open up plenty of capacity in Midtown, reduce crowding on the subway, and reduce the time required to get to Lower Manhattan significantly. As far as I can tell, it's win-win all around.
This is very interesting from a transit perspective, but would it supply the freight capacity that the Sunnyside option seems to provide?
[This is very interesting from a transit perspective, but would it supply the freight capacity that the Sunnyside option seems to provide?]
Good question. I'd say it does, since the Atlantic Avenue branch crosses the Conrail freight line at East New York. That would make it a bit more convenient to Brooklyn, a bit less convenient to Western Queens than the Sunnyside tunnel.
See the two other responses to your post. In addition, contrary to LIRR management's apparent views, I see the Atlantic Branch as a jumping off point for an extension of LIRR service into lower Manhattan. It makes a lot more sense to me to split the midtown traffic from the downtown traffic at Jamaica instead of running all trains into midtown and then extending the LIRR through Manhattan.
In general, I disagree with the notion that the LIRR is of benefit only to its riders and that those of us who only ride the subway should eagerly abet LIRR's break up. We're all in this together, and a balanced system is what we need.
Yes, I agree with this view generally, and have posted a reply to that effect. I think extending LIRR service through Downtown Brooklyn to the Wall Street area would be an enormous economic development boost for those areas, and NYC generally. It would be interesting to know what the MTA's thoughts on this matter might be. Frankly, it is probably the case that the decision to build the Grand Cetnral access was largely dictated by the political clout of LIRR commuters, particularly under former Senator D'Amato. The LIRR might be just as well served by the Brooklyn alternative, but I think it is too late now to change the scheme.
Hoow about this.. we should live so long to ever see it! A 4 track 2nd ave. subway with the 2 tracks for the LIRR south of 63 st? to Downtown from there?
[Frankly, it is probably the case that the decision to build the Grand Cetnral access was largely dictated by the political clout of LIRR commuters, particularly under former Senator D'Amato.]
Percentage of MTA riders who use City subways and buses: 90
Percentage of MTA capital funds going to City subways and buses: 70
yes and with both arms broken using your teeth might be... The realities I think are as follows. PANYNJ which runs the airports wanted to expand its own empire(read more jobs more managers) and were not willing to enlist enough political muscle to defeat the selfish airline lobby. (We did a little better in the Bay Area--we got the funding BUT the design is completely wrong) As to the total money crunch, just read L. Littlefield's posts-- we just don't spend the capital or operating monies as necessary. The auto/oil industry lobbies have way too much clout. As I have argued previously(and others as well) part of the need for this line is the daily workers at the airport. Thus building a stand alone system neither physically nor farewise integrated, is design sabotage. IMHO the correct options for the service would have started from the following. Either direct integration into the TA or LIRR or at least equipment compatability with IND-BMT standards. Its bad enough having two divisions in the TA which can't cross run, a brand new yet different one just splinters the acquisition market and expands the spare parts inventory costs. These last two are the "structural" economic sabotage which will be there forever as wasted money.
What, may I ask, is "Dead Horse Discipline"? I am not familiar with the phrase, so I don't know what you intend to convey by its use. I am in complete agreement with you that the JFK line SHOULD be compatible with either the LIRR or the BMT/IND standards. I am not certain why it is not, other than that the airlines do not want to spend aviation money on the provision of general public transportation. Airlines want the money spent in ways that will benefit them! This may mean better airport access by transit for PASSENGERS, but it CANNOT mean (from the airlines' perspective) the provision of off-airport transit capacity. From the airlines perspective, diverting PFC money to general transit capacity is tantamount to turning the PFC charge into a general tax, rather than a dedicated fund. That, in a nutshell, is why the idea of a discrete transit system for the airport has been proposed. It is literally the only way that the airlines are convinced that the transit improvement is a dedicated airport improvement, rather than a back-door way to subsidize NYC transit.
While I agree that the PFC money should be used for building a transit spur to JFK and/or LaGuardia, it would probably require an act of Congress, literally, to direct that the money be so used. What do you think the odds are of Congress standing up to the airlines in favor of the users of NYC transit? In case you have any doubt, I think it is very small.
So you've never heard of "beating" a dead horse?
Yes, I have. Just being a bit thick-headed I guess.
Good thoughts; additionally why does NYC have to be without a low-cost rail service into JFK when existing trackage (Howard Beach) is so near? Chicagho invested in several miles of new line to both its airports, it isn't the only one. So why can't NYC move on with it (other than the worthless political reasons you mention==sadly true)
Re: Chicago's rail transit to both airports.
Yes, it's a point of civic pride that this was done, not to mention damn handy when you need to catch an early-evening flight directly from work downtown. But to be fair to New York:
1) The Orange Line to Midway was Chicago's equivalent of the Second Avenue Subway for many years. Transportation plans going back to the 1939 subway plan (if not earlier) called for an Archer Avenue subway ending at Midway. It got built only in the early 1990s, and then not as a subway.
2) Cheap, if not free, right-of-way with few NIMBY problems.
For O'Hare, the old "Met" L to Logan Square had already been extended to Jefferson Park in 1970 by subway, directly under Kimball Street and Milwaukee Avenue as much as possible, but mainly by expressway median. From there to O'Hare, the line was extended in the very early 1980s entirely on expressway median right up to where it ducks underground on the airport property just before its terminal under the airport parking garage. The stations (including vast parking at Cumberland and Rosemont) are on publicly-owned and otherwise unbuildable land in the midst of interchanges and on-off ramps, and even the yards just past Rosemont station are between the inbound and outbound lanes of the airport access road.
For Midway, the line was cobbled together from unused land along (active) rail lines, whose owners were eager to sell otherwise-useless linear plots of land. And the Orange line had very few worries with NIMBYs -- with a few exceptions, the Orange line runs through industrial areas, with freight rail lines and the Sanitary Canal on one side of it and the Stevenson Expressway on the other.
It's a lot easier to get a line built when you don't have large numbers of householders either squawking to their elected officials about "diminished quality of life" (read: THEY will come here on the trains) or holding out their hands for condemnation payments because the line goes through a row of houses.
These are quite valid points. However, the difficult truth is that Chicago has more effective political leadership, as well as a more pliant political atmosphere. Robert Moses and his deeply abusive practices are in some ways at the root of New York's inability to be effective in pursuing public projects. It is strange that New York, which exists as we know it entirely as the historic result of the Erie Canal ( a New York State project), has been rendered so inept at big projects by the poisoned political atmosphere.
Thanks for the thoughts, true of course but still it got done. I think the Northeast has the biggest NIMBY problem; like a one time idea to convert some lightly used LIRR track to act as a rush hour express for IND Queens lines. To use the Brighton for an example I never saw where it caused blight nor heard of kids getting killed as a way of life on a busy 4 track main. But they sure did scream about that when that Montauk Brnanch was it? idea came up.IMHO I don't recall too many back yards between Howard Beach on the A line and Kennedy, not to mention it "ain't" very far. I still consider it a pity that a high priceiride(unless you take a slow bus to the subway first) in often heavy traffic is the only way to JFK. But thanks....
(Just read L. Littlefield's posts-- we just don't spend the capital or operating monies as necessary. The auto/oil industry lobbies have way too much clout).
Just to clarify, the auto/oil industry lobbyists did very well from the 1920s to about 1973. Then again, we were expanding rail at that time as well.
Since then, we haven't done much to improve roads in the New York Area either. The way I would put it is the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY has too much clout. Elsewhere in the U.S., they are still building roads, but they are improving transit too. On the margin, we could use a few road improvements as well as transit improvements. We get little of either, and when we do get them they take too long and cost too much.
Thoughtful comments ... I particularly liked:
"or at least equipment compatability with IND-BMT standards"
Bring back the standards, there are at least a couple of sets still around (yes I know that's NOT what you ment), but this is a railfan site after all.
Mr t__:^)
I'd like to hear an explanation for why the airlines oppose funding for something that will make it *easier* for people to get to the place where they do business. This stance does not make sense to me.
Personally, JFK is my *last* choice if I'm flying from NYC because it's so difficult and expensive to get to from most of the city, compared to LGA or EWR. I'd almost rather go to White Plains or Islip!
In response, I suggest that you see my recent posting in reply to "Dead Horse Discipline".
The airlines are opposed because they are the ones who are collecting the Airport taxes on tickets, and now that they are making money they are so damn greedy. They don t want to pay their employees back for all the non pay raises during the lean times in the late 80s and early 90s. They cut Travel Agents Commissions from 10 pct to 5 pct, and if a group of Travel Agents try to boycot the airline for just one day they threaten to take away their appointments. They pack so many people in a plane, Customer Service is so bad, that when the feds started to make waves, they promised all sorts of reforms, but have not done them yet. and so forth
Under normal circumstances, JFK would be no better than second place for me either - I live in NJ part of the time (NC the rest of the time) and consequently EWR is the closest. But flights to Nevada (where my grandchildren live) or the west coast are significantly cheaper from JFK - $207 for my last round trip, nonstop both ways, from JFK to LAS (Las Vegas) vs. $455 with a change each way from LGA and $680 with a change each way from EWR. And the transit connection isn't bad - Jersey Coast Line to NYP, A train to Howard Beach, and the shuttle to the terminal. Other than adding unnecessary expense, the Airtrain won't make it any worse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is truly damning with faint praise to say that the Airtrain "wont make it any worse", considering the hundreds of millions of dollars (billion?) that is involved in buildinig it. Do you really think that it additional benefit is so very small?
I don't see much additional benefit, at least from the Howard Beach connection. Certainly not enough to be worth an extra five bucks. At most it will save me ten minutes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Airtrain will help people move around the airport, and get from the parking lot to the terminals. Having driven to JFK and flown out, that is a benefit. It will also allow people coming from Midtown to take a cab to Jamaica and the Airtrain to JFK, avoiding the Van Wyck (which is worth avoiding).
The $5.00 feet is inexcusible, however. They want the airtrain to break even so more airport profits will be available for the PATH, but they don't want to charge people to take in from the parking lot. Hence, they overcharge the transit rider -- who is paying the same $3.00 passenger facility charge on the ticket to build it. The fare should be $1.50.
The Airtrain will serve exactly the same clientele as the current free bus, plus a few who will have taken a train to Jamaica. Who's going to switch from a cab to the Airtrain? No one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We're forgetting that one of the main reasons that the AirTrain is going to Jamaica has nothing to do with folks from NYC, can you say LONG ISLAND ? I'm not saying that hords of folks from Nassau or Sufolk counties are going to actually use it, just that we seemed to have forgot that it's one of the main reasons that it's going there.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston's right on the Long Island issue. Lots of NYC pols never understood that the goal was to serve Long Island from Jamaica.
As for taking a cab to Jamaica, south of the Kew Gardens interchange three lanes of Van Wyck are all you've got to JFK. It can take an hour to get down that stretch of road, at almost any time. Most New Yorkers don't even bother to use it.
Now if you had the Airtrain to Jamaica, some folks might hop a cab from Midtown, as they do now. But if the Van Wyck were jammed, they could get off the highway, go to Jamaica, and get on the Airtrain there. If the Van Wyck is OK, then on to the airport by cab. This works especially well if baggage can be checked at Jamaica and also travels on the Airtrain (if it's by truck on the Van Wyck it will never get there).
Well, this is a new insight into the exclsuive Jamaica connection. If it is true that the PA has capitulated to the airlines and sold NYC out this cheaply, then I think Giuliani is right when he says NYC should get rid of the PA as airport operator.
[Well, this is a new insight into the exclsuive Jamaica connection. If it is true that the PA has capitulated to the airlines and sold NYC out this cheaply, then I think Giuliani is right when he says NYC should get rid of the PA as airport operator.]
Because of a tradition that 50% of PA proceeds be invested in NY and 50% in NJ and the massive PATH subsidy, the Port Authority is basically a subsidy for NJ. It's hard to see how it's in New York's interest to stay in it.
What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ?
[What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ? ]
Nothing!
Arti
????
By that token, Giuliani should be able to give the PA the boot starting now with NYC getting full control after a couple of years.
I think they could dissolve PA if they really wanted to.
Arti
[What would be involved in getting out of the PA agreement with NJ?]
I don't know, beyond the fact that NYC can take JFK back when the lease expires in 2012.
[Because of a tradition that 50% of PA proceeds be invested in NY and 50% in NJ and the massive PATH subsidy, the Port Authority is basically a subsidy for NJ. It's hard to see how it's in New York's interest to stay in it.]
None of this bickering over subsidies would be necessary if New Yorkers got rid of their absurd world-ends-at-the-Hudson attitude and started thinking of themselves as part of a region. Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.
[Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity. ]
I don't see that in real life.
Arti
[[Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.]
I don't see that in real life.
Arti]
I was looking at the Census figures today, and growth in the Northeast is pathetic compared to the rest of the country. Some of that has to do with the costs of union labor, but I think most of the blame has to go to the region's petty politicians. If they asked themselves what was right for the region rather than what's politically expedient, we could be competitive again; but we're like a sinking ship where everybody's so busy fighting over pockets of air that nobody bails. Nobody wants to take responsibility for the NYC poor, but everybody wants the tax revenues and jobs from Manhattan's businesses. Everybody wants to subsidize away the other guy's sports stadium, at great loss to themselves. Nobody wants to deal with pork and make taxes competitive.
Just look at what's happening in Nassau County--one of the richest counties in the country, and it's virtually bankrupt.
[If they asked themselves what was right for the region rather than what's politically expedient, we could be competitive again; but we're like a sinking ship where everybody's so busy fighting over pockets of air that nobody bails. ]
But what would change it? Honestly looks pretty hopeless.
Arti
[But what would change it? Honestly looks pretty hopeless.
Arti]
I sure wish I knew. In NY the voters got upset enough to kick out Cuomo, but instead of someone better we got a mediocre governor who seems to favor tepid tax cuts and political handouts. It seems that the structure of NY State's government is designed to keep anything positive from happening. Maybe if we went to one legislative body that could swing between Republican and Democratic control we'd see some improvement.
Meanwhile, the only thing I can think is to spread the word. I've learned a lot about what ails the region since I was here, and I know if others learned what I have we'd see some very different faces in government.
You leave out an awful lot. The areas with heavy growth in this country tend to be out here in the west and in the south, for a number of reasons:
- lots of green fields to bulldoze for development, which will always be cheaper (if you exclude external costs) than redeveloping urban land
- a more car dependent lifestyle. Face it, that's what most people want. Too bad, but true.
- Heavier subsidies to build infrastructure down here. This is the fault of NE politicians who don't focus on infrastructure. The NE is a huge % of the US politician, but has relatively little power in congressional leadership - as has been true for a while. Maybe this is because there are less congressional seats up there that are "safe seats???"
Also, traditionally, military spending has been tilted away from the NE.
- Nicer weather. This is a BIG factor. Of course, that's due to air conditioning, made possible in part with cheap energy, and out here in the west, big federal $$$ to bring water to cities.
So I don't think you can blame it all on NE politicians!
I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.
Back to the topic...As an update, the JFK airtrain construction has passed the Howard Beach station on the Rockaway Line but has not made the bridge to cross the subway tracks yet. Will the cars on the line be automatically operated like at EWR? Who is building them? Also, the guage of the tracks seem to be very narrow--like 2.5'. I think that the capital wasted on the airtrain realy was wasted. Even with a rail link, I'm still taking car service to JFK simply because the A Rackaway line just takes too long and does not stick to schedules well. Especially since I usually fly out in the early morning when the A is infrequent. I believe the airtrain will extend to Jamica, and that too is inconveniet for me. I live in Manhatten!
-Daniel
Do you know anyone who lives in Manhateleven?
[Will the cars on the line be automatically operated like at EWR?]
Yes the will be no operator.
[Who is building them? Also, the guage of the tracks seem to be very narrow--like 2.5'.]
Standard guage, but "light rail" so support structure & rail guage (vs. width of track) would not support heavy subway cars.
Mr t__:^)
[Standard guage, but "light rail" so support structure & rail guage (vs. width of track) would not support heavy subway cars. ]
I remember reading someplace that it could support subway cars, also LRV-s are heavier than subway cars.
Arti
Anyone who wants to see current construction pictures of the JFK light rail line or artist renderings of the station at Howard Beach and dowtown Jamaica should check out www.jfkairtrain.com The complex that will be built at the Howard Beach Station looks totally out of proportion with tiny Coleman Square in Howard Beach. What a waste of dollars!! I wish it was built on the old LIRR Rockaway line. So much more direct!
[Anyone who wants to see current construction pictures of the JFK light rail line or artist renderings of the station at Howard Beach and dowtown Jamaica should check out www.jfkairtrain.com The complex that will be built at the Howard Beach Station looks totally out of proportion with tiny Coleman Square in Howard Beach. What a waste of dollars!! I wish it was built on the old LIRR Rockaway line. So much more direct!]
Gets my vote for biggest boondoggle since the Tweed Courthouse.
[I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.]
I agree that NYC is no longer suited as a large-scale manufacturing center, but I don't think that's really apropos. The factory regions in upstate New York are dying, and land costs aren't a constraint there. And Manhattan would attract more of the high end businesses it traditionally has if it weren't taxed insanely.
[I don't think that the NE political establishment alone can be blamed for certain sorts of economic decline in the NE. The NE simply is not competitive in some area of economic activity because costs are cheaper elsewhere. In part, this is a result of the success of some portions of the NE economy. Why is Manhattan not competitive as a manufacturing center? The answer may really turn less on issues of taxes, infrastructure, labor costs, utiilties, and transportation and more on the fact that Manhattan real estate is worth more being used for other purposes than factories for low value-added manufactured goods.
While the analysis of Manhattan is not true of all NE locations,like sections of upstate NY and northern New England, it is true of other attractive portions of the NE, like metro Boston, where businesses might be inclined to locate if the costs were more tolerable.]
I agree that NYC is no longer suited as a large-scale manufacturing center, but I don't think that's really apropos. The factory regions in upstate New York are dying, and land costs aren't a constraint there. And Manhattan would attract more high end businesses if it weren't taxed insanely.
[You leave out an awful lot. The areas with heavy growth in this country tend to be out here in the west and in the south, for a number of reasons:
- lots of green fields to bulldoze for development, which will always be cheaper (if you exclude external costs) than redeveloping urban land
- a more car dependent lifestyle. Face it, that's what most people want. Too bad, but true.
- Heavier subsidies to build infrastructure down here. This is the fault of NE politicians who don't focus on infrastructure. The NE is a huge % of the US politician, but has relatively little power in congressional leadership - as has been true for a while. Maybe this is because there are less congressional seats up there that are "safe seats???"
Also, traditionally, military spending has been tilted away from the NE.
- Nicer weather. This is a BIG factor. Of course, that's due to air conditioning, made possible in part with cheap energy, and out here in the west, big federal $$$ to bring water to cities.
So I don't think you can blame it all on NE politicians!]
All? No. But it also doesn't surprise me that NY State has the highest taxes in the continental US and the lowest growth. Yes, Congress funnels $2000 more to a rural resident than an urban one, and that money tends to go down south and out west. But that's not enough to explain what's happened here. Businesses care about, in descending order, costs, costs, and costs. NYS has plenty of land and cheap labor. I don't know how much of what's happened has to do with the factors you mention and others, but I do no this--no cost sensistive business is going to locate to New York State, and that includes most manufacturers. They're leaving in droves, driven out by insanely uncompetitive taxes and fees.
[None of this bickering over subsidies would be necessary if New Yorkers got rid of their absurd world-ends-at-the-Hudson attitude and started thinking of themselves as part of a region. Under this more enlightened viewpoint, it would be irrelevant whether more PA subsidies went to NY or NJ because both states would be effectively a single entity.]
I agree up to a point, which is that it would have to happen on *both* sides of the river. As far as I can tell NY has been more generous with NJ than the other way around; for example, Governor Cuomo gave PATH commuters the very generous WTC revenues, and now Gov. Whitman won't allow the PA to raise the fare. Other MJ actions have been even worse--such as when they blocked the one seat Airtrain and their current prohbition of an extension of the N to the terminals at LGA, because they didn't want to increase competition for Newark.
Until the politicians start doing what's right rather than what's politically expedient, it seems to me they should work out an objective formula based on who does the paying and who does the using; that way the PA would be free to avoid the political BS and just build what it can afford from within its revenue base.
[re commonality of interests between NY and NJ]
[I agree up to a point, which is that it would have to happen on *both* sides of the river. As far as I can tell NY has been more generous with NJ than the other way around; for example, Governor Cuomo gave PATH commuters the very generous WTC revenues, and now Gov. Whitman won't allow the PA to raise the fare.]
My reaction is, big deal. If we think of New York and New Jersey as identical component parts of the *same entity*, it makes no difference which side is more generous with the other.
This is essentially a dishonest answer, because NYC has not consented to having a disproportionate share of the revenues of the PA go to NJ. Such a redistribution means that NY and New Yorkers pay more and get less. When the PA was established, it was thought that both sides would share equally in the benefits. If it is true that NJ has gone out of its way to use the PA to benefit itself, and to hurt NY interests, then this is a betrayal of the original, somewhat idealistic, intent. If we are to think of the region as a whole, then why shouldn't NJ get back only those revenues that it generates? The PA was never intended to be a vehicle for redistributing wealth on a substantial scale from NY to NJ in the name of "regional" benefit.
In fact, the entire discussion of regional benefit has been largely dishonest, since there has been little discussion of developing the NY side of the port or other NYC based development ideas. The PA has always refused to engage in NYC development, and has gotten away with this because of the usual schisms between NYC and NYS (since NYS controls its share of the PA, not NYC.
Both NY airports were developed by the City of New York, not the PA. In fact, the PA has not engaged in a single important economic development effort in HYC, and uses the WTC to subsidize itself.
NJ has been more focused politically than NY, and has used the situation to its advantage. In the game of interstate warfare (economic development), this is perfectly understandable and NY has no one to blame but itself. However, it is simply not true to say that there is no inequity or wrongfulness about this neglect of NY to benefit NJ. Nor it is at all illegitimate for NY politicos finally to demand that the PA pay more attention to the NY side.
The PA exists in a strange netherworld where NYS politicos get to control a lot of power and patronage controlled by the PA, despite the fact that the NYC airports, the major generator of revenue, were developed by NYC.
Chicago developed and still controls its airports as a division of City government. They are tremendous assets for the City and the region, and are generally regarded as the best run airports in the nation. It is difficult to overstate the central importance of airport access and availability of flights in creating a favorable business climate. Atlanta as we now know it exists solely because of its tremendous success at developing itself as a world airport city. Ditto for the emergence of Dallas/Fort Worth, and Denver, Pittsburgh, and others are all trying hard.
NYC should do all it can to regain control of the wasting assets of JFK and LaGuardia before it finds that it has lost its place as the main gateway to Europe in favor of Newark. To maintain that it does not matter because the region as a whole will benefit begs the question of why that rationale always means the NJ gets more and NY gets less.
[This is essentially a dishonest answer, because NYC has not consented to having a disproportionate share of the revenues of the PA go to NJ. Such a redistribution means that NY and New Yorkers pay more and get less. When the PA was established, it was thought that both sides would share equally in the benefits. If it is true that NJ has gone out of its way to use the PA to benefit itself, and to hurt NY interests, then this is a betrayal of the original, somewhat idealistic, intent. If we are to think of the region as a whole, then why shouldn't NJ get back only those revenues that it generates?
The PA was never intended to be a vehicle for redistributing wealth on a substantial scale from NY to NJ in the name of "regional" benefit.]
In an ideal world, the flow of benefits or money from New York to New Jersey should be utterly irrelevant because both areas are parts of the same region. New Yorkers have got to stop their parochial way of thinking. Wake up, the world DOES NOT end at the Hudson. For Christ's sakes, New Yorkers think they're so cosmopolitan and sophisticated, while in reality they're among the most narrow minded country bumpkins anywhere in the nation.
City-states were fine in ancient Greece, but not in the United States today. As far as I am concerned, there is but one region - the New York metropolitan area - and from an economic and political standpoint it should make no difference whatsoever where in the region a particular development or facility happens to be located.
[In fact, the entire discussion of regional benefit has been largely dishonest, since there has been little discussion of developing the NY side of the port or other NYC based development ideas. The PA has always refused to engage in NYC development, and has gotten away with this because of the usual schisms between NYC and NYS (since NYS controls its share of the PA, not NYC.]
Give the people at the Port Authority more credit. They know full well that even the simplest public works project in NYC will be a [deleted]-up of enormous proportions. How else can you describe a city in which it takes several months to fix an subway station escalator, three years to repave a street, fourteen years to build a public school, and 75 years and counting to dig a subway tunnel?
[Both NY airports were developed by the City of New York, not the PA. In fact, the PA has not engaged in a single important economic development effort in NYC, and uses the WTC to subsidize itself.]
Once again, the PA knows that any project in the city will be a disaster.
[NJ has been more focused politically than NY, and has used the situation to its advantage. In the game of interstate warfare (economic development), this is perfectly understandable and NY has no
one to blame but itself. However, it is simply not true to say that there is no inequity or wrongfulness about this neglect of NY to benefit NJ. Nor it is at all illegitimate for NY politicos finally to demand that the PA pay more attention to the NY side.]
Maybe if these NY politicos were able to function on a level greater than that of a person with an I.Q. score of 65, the PA *would* pay more attention.
[The PA exists in a strange netherworld where NYS politicos get to control a lot of power and patronage controlled by the PA, despite the fact that the NYC airports, the major generator of revenue, were developed by NYC.]
Sure they were developed by the city - decades ago. Big [deleted] deal. If the city were a person, with a similar competency level, he'd be unable to wipe himself without assistance.
Chicago developed and still controls its airports as a division of City government. They are
tremendous assets for the City and the region, and are generally regarded as the best run airports in
the nation. It is difficult to overstate the central importance of airport access and availability of flights
in creating a favorable business climate. Atlanta as we now know it exists solely because of its
tremendous success at developing itself as a world airport city. Ditto for the emergence of
Dallas/Fort Worth, and Denver, Pittsburgh, and others are all trying hard.
NYC should do all it can to regain control of the wasting assets of JFK and LaGuardia before it
finds that it has lost its place as the main gateway to Europe in favor of Newark. To maintain that it
does not matter because the region as a whole will benefit begs the question of why that rationale
always means the NJ gets more and NY gets less.
Well, your response really speaks for itself. Apparently you think that NY has inadvertently entered into a suicide pact by participating in the PA, and that it has no right to extricate itself now that it sees its error. Fortunately, NY has the right to get out. But I agree with your assessment that NY might not have the political competence to exercise its right.
By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.
[Well, your response really speaks for itself. Apparently you think that NY has inadvertently entered into a suicide pact by participating in the PA, and that it has no right to extricate itself now that it sees its error. Fortunately, NY has the right to get out. But I agree with your assessment that NY might not have the political competence to exercise its right.]
Whether New York gets a good deal out of the Port Authority is the sort of question that could be argued from now until Doomsday without an answer. For every point, there's a counterpoint, and so on. But I couldn't care less. As I've stated, I think almost exclusively in regional rather than local terms. Unfortnately, most New Yorkers, especially the Manhattan elites whose opinions are those which count, seem to be genetically incapable of regional thinking. They'll come to regret that parochial outlook, mark my words.
[By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.]
My suspicion - a strong suspicion - is that most people elsewhere in the country who are at all familiar with NYC politics have an attitude that's a synthesis of scorn, pity and amusement. They must wonder how the city can squander its advantages and set itself on the road to absolute ruin, while at the same time its residents regard the city as the zenith of human civilization.
Well, we have found something to agree upon. I very much agree that the regional interests of the NY/NJ area should be of concern to NY as well as NJ. I just don't see why NY should be called upon to subsidize NJ.
I also agree with some of your perception of Manhattan-centered NY politics. The working people of the "outer boroughs" need a city government that pays more attention to the creation of jobs that blue-collar workers can participate in. The fact that the largest percentage of New Yorkers in modern times are foreign born makes the creation of these jobs all the more important. Recent imigrants need entry level jobs. It is for precisely those same reasons that I am critical of the PA for not trying harder to create such jobs in NY so that the immigrant and welfare communities will have the resulting job opportunities.
By the way, if the PA were to support building the PATH through to NY to give these immigrant and poor New Yorkers access to the NJ jobs the PA is busy creating, then I would agree that it was pursuing a fairer regional approach to economic development.
"The fact that the largest percentage of New Yorkers in modern times are foreign born makes the creation of these jobs all the more important."
The United States is the only country that produces educated persons?
Hardly.
[Whether New York gets a good deal out of the Port Authority is the sort of question that could be argued from now until Doomsday without an answer. For every point, there's a counterpoint, and so on. But I couldn't care less. As I've stated, I think almost exclusively in regional rather than local terms. Unfortnately, most New Yorkers, especially the Manhattan elites whose opinions are those which count, seem to be genetically incapable of regional thinking. They'll come to regret that parochial outlook, mark my words.
My suspicion - a strong suspicion - is that most people elsewhere in the country who are at all familiar with NYC politics have an attitude that's a synthesis of scorn, pity and amusement. They must wonder how the city can squander its advantages and set itself on the road to absolute ruin, while at the same time its residents regard the city as the zenith of human civilization.]
You keep blaming the City. But what the Hell is the City supposed to do? The schools are controlled by the State. The MTA is controlled by the State. The airports are controlled by both states. State disbursement formulas favor the suburbs over the City. Federal disbursement formulas do the same. We're paying our teachers less than anybody else. We're paying our cops less. We're paying our transit workers less. If the money were going to something that would benefit the region, it might not be a problem. But that's not what's happening. it's going to local upstate governemnts that spends 20-30% more than the national average for cops who sit around all day eating donuts. To LIRR and PATH conductors who earn far more than their equivalents in NYC transit. To places like Nassau County, which in spite of living off the City's revenues and being one of the country's richest counties is bankrupt because of years of corrupt politics. Does it somehow benefit the region to spend only 70% of the MTA's capital funds on 90% of the MTA's riders? Or to build up Newark Airport and let JFK die? It seems to me that you're talking just the sort of talk that you excoriate. We should be spending money where the need is, on the basis of what benefits the region, and we aren't.
I too am an ex-New Yorker; when I left I had enough of big city problems so have lived in cow towns ever since. But I consider Chicago my adopted city (only coincidental that my dad was from Chicago, I never really knew him.) and always enjoy visiting. The el, excuse me L (which is what th e "l" at the end of my handle means,is my main drawing card, but second id the people. Some may think otherwise but I've always appreciated the friendliness of Chicagoans compared to a lot of other big cities. But you're right, about NYC government; Chicago didn't fall into the name "the city that works" by accident, they earned it.
[By the way, I am not a New Yorker (although I am an ex-New Yorker.) In fact, I live in Chicago. My assessment is a relatively objective view of the situation NY has put itself into. It is especially informed by my perspective gained in watching a competent urban government (Chicago) act to protect and advance its municipal interests.]
Perceptions don't always equal reality when it comes to Chicago. Many people probably consider it to be the prime example of bad politics, with crooked ward bosses, dead people voting, and so on. Whatever the case may have been in the past, Chicago now embodies good government, while NYC is a horror pit.
Perceptions don't always equal reality when it comes to Chicago. Many people probably consider it to be the prime example of bad politics, with crooked ward bosses, dead people voting, and so on. Whatever the case may have been in the past, Chicago now embodies good government, while NYC is a horror pit.
Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David
Chicago, IL
My poly sci professor in college always felt the Chicago system was better in responding to the needs of the citizens than the civil service "good government" system New York put in place following the Seabury investigations and the arrival of LaGuardia as mayor in the 1930s. He basically said the further away you take government from a one-on-one relationship between the people of a neighborhood and their local ward leader, councilman or whatever, the less resposive government becomes. To a civil service rep, you're no longer a person with a face and a vote in November, you're Case No. 436-7905-2187-A and the future of their job doesn't matter whether on not your problem is completely resolved.
If everybody's job was directly on the line if the Second Avenue Subway didn't get built and the current elected officials were throw out of office, it would get built if there were more votes to be gained from satisfied riders than lost from the NIMBY groups.
[My poly sci professor in college always felt the Chicago system was better in responding to the needs of the citizens than the civil service "good government" system New York put in place following the Seabury investigations and the arrival of LaGuardia as mayor in the 1930s. He basically said the further away you take government from a one-on-one relationship between the people of a neighborhood and their local ward leader, councilman or whatever, the less resposive government becomes. To a civil service rep, you're no longer a person with a face and a vote in November, you're Case No. 436-7905-2187-A and the future of their job doesn't matter whether on not your problem is completely resolved.]
I think you're right.e
Nothing important but you might look up my message of May l5 at l2;56;05. It's not my first pro-Chicago comment on this site. I've mentioned in others that politics or not things get done there. I Feltsafe in most of Chicago in the 70's when New York was an atmosphere of fear, there was virtually no graffitti on CTA when NYC was a mess of it. I'd take Richard Daley [father or son] for a lifetime over 2 years of John Lindsay or some of the other deadbeat NYC mayors. On the plus side NYC is a lot cleaner now and I feel safe when I visit compared to what I lived with in the 70's.
[On the plus side NYC is a lot cleaner now and I feel safe when I visit compared to what I lived with in the 70's.]
I came back to NYC a couple of years ago after living in San Francisco, and I feel *much* safer here. SF was like the City before Giuliani.
[Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David]
I think it worked in New York, too. The City boomed under Tammany Hall. Cronies got rich, but the subways got built.
I think New York's problems have to be seen in a different perspective:
-The NYC and NY State developed a huge welfare system when they were the richest and most populous area of the country. But beginning in the sixties, as the poor migrated in vast numbers from rural areas to the City, the region's generous welfare policies--and that includes "white welfare" to the unions and politicians, not just welfare for the poor--began to strangle it. High taxes and poor services drove out prosperous residents and businesses. The City reached a point where any increase in taxes actually reduced the tax base, and that led to bankruptcy.
-The constitutional prejudice against urban areas hurts cities when it comes to funding. Subsidies for the South and West, enacted by a generous Northeast at the height of its prosperity, mean that money continues to flow away from the region. The South gained political power, and when its turn to control things had come, did not reciprocate.
-Welfare-related violence and busing also drove out middle class residents, reducing the City's tax base.
-These phenomena were apparent in many American cities. The ones that did and do best were the southern cities, which offer little in the way of welfare benefits. But NYC actually did better than most older cities--look at Newark or Detroit. Even LA, while it prospered for a awhile, eventually went downhill--and like other cities, suffered from riots which New York City managed to avoid, in part because the infamous Mayor Lindsay walked the streets of Harlem in his shirtsleeves when things got hot.
-NYC suffered a bad rap because of the bankruptcy--caused by a combination of the City's odious unions and welfare policies--and because as the country's largest City, it got the lion's share of bad publicity. But even at its worst, it was only #6 in the national crime statistics, and most of that crime was committed within the ghetto.
-NY State, like other states, dumped its mental patients on the City. This created the problem of homelessness--once bums became acceptable, junkies and alcoholics moved out of their traditional haunts and began to engage in behaviors that would have been unacceptable a few years previously.
-Idiotic court decisions really hurt the City. It became impossible to control porn shops, loiterers, beggars, subway musicians, wandering madmen, etc. That led to a huge reduction in the quality of life, and contributed to the exodus of businesses and middle class residents.
-The City ceded control of many important functions to the corrupt, incompetent, and out-of-touch State government during the fiscal crisis, and still doesn't control its own schools or transportation. The result has been moderately disasterous.
-After the collapse of the hapless Beame administration, much of the damage that did occur to the City has been reversed during the Koch, Dinkins, and Giuliani administrations. But they're limited in what they can do by the State and the Feds. The City operates under all sorts of odious court and government mandates. If the City so much as keeps a homeless family waiting in an office overnight, it gets fined. Money that should educate children goes to dribblers in special education classes. Unlike any other City, NYC has to provide apartments at luxury prices for junkies and madmen. Etc., etc.
-At the same time, the City has to be blamed for maintaining and encouraging politically popular pork like rent control.
So......a Daley type person cn be the Robert Moses for transit!
[So......a Daley type person cn be the Robert Moses for transit!]
Me, me, me. No, make me Mayor. Wow, would I ever be a one term mayor--if I wasn't assassinated first.
The Late Mayor's Platform
Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead.
Dump all the muncipal unions.
Secede from New York State.
Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing.
End rent control.
End the senior citizen rent increase exemption.
End the reduced fare program for the elderly.
Abolish home care for the elderly.
Outlaw social workers.
End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.
End all but emergency services to drug addicts.
Offer drug treatment on demand.
Require drug treatment for addicts who commit a crime or are committed.
Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.
Eliminate open admissions.
End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.
Require a drug and alcohol test for emergency shelter.
Cut Medicaid to the national average.
Expand the subway.
Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.
Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.
Build new highways and tunnels.
Abolish borough presidents.
Get the mob out of construction.
Arrest subway musicians and beggars.
Arrest people who sleep, pee in public places, or are intoxicated.
Commit the insane.
Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.
Build parks on the river.
Build the world's tallest building.
Rebuild Penn Station.
Told you I'd be a one term mayor!
Here's how my ideas, if I suddenly wielded unlimited powers, would match up with yours:
[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead.]
Me too.
[Dump all the muncipal unions.]
Same here.
[Secede from New York State.]
I'd try to make a new state out of the NYC metro area, which would include parts of NJ and Connecticut.
[Sell the muncipal hospitals.]
I'd just as soon close most of them.
[Sell public housing.
End rent control.
End the senior citizen rent increase exemption.
End the reduced fare program for the elderly.]
I'll go along with all of these.
[Abolish home care for the elderly.]
Dunno ... home care sometimes is more cost-effective than nursing home care.
[Outlaw social workers.]
Absolutely. Could we add personal-injury lawyers to the list?
[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.]
I disagree on this one, immigrants (legal or otherwise) probably contribute more in taxes than they take in services. And without immigration, NYC would have a shrinking population a la Detroit or Philadelphia.
[End all but emergency services to drug addicts.
Offer drug treatment on demand.
Require drug treatment for addicts who commit a crime or are committed.]
I agree here too.
[Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.]
Good idea, though it would be no panacea.
[Eliminate open admissions.]
And while we're at it, I'd vastly downsize the CUNY system.
[End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.]
Good ideas all, but we'd also have to get rid of the teacher's union.
[Require a drug and alcohol test for emergency shelter.
Cut Medicaid to the national average.]
And how!
[Expand the subway.]
You'd better believe it!
[Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.]
Maybe - I'm still not convinced.
[Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.]
No. Doing so would make NYC less attractive to business.
[Build new highways and tunnels.]
To some extent, yes.
[Abolish borough presidents.]
I can't figure out why we still have them.
[Get the mob out of construction.]
That's been happening already.
[Arrest subway musicians and beggars.]
Beggars, yes, as well as the people who give them money. I'd allow some musicians, within limits.
[Arrest people who sleep, pee in public places, or are intoxicated.
Commit the insane.]
Absolutely.
[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.]
I disagree on this one.
[Build parks on the river.
Build the world's tallest building.]
Yes, and yes.
[Rebuild Penn Station.]
I disagree, we can get by without it.
[[Here's how my ideas, if I suddenly wielded unlimited powers, would match up with yours:
[Secede from New York State.]
I'd try to make a new state out of the NYC metro area, which would include parts of NJ and Connecticut.]
You're right, that's even better.
[[Sell the muncipal hospitals.]
I'd just as soon close most of them.]
I shouldn't have said "sell"--who would buy them? I'd just make them nonprofits and close any that aren't needed.
[[Abolish home care for the elderly.]
Dunno ... home care sometimes is more cost-effective than nursing home care.]
True, and the sad thing is that the home care workers themselves aren't paid squat--the money goes to poverty pimps. The problem as I see it is that the program discourages people from taking care of their elderly parents themselves. And elderly people are extremely reluctant to go into nursing homes--most die within a year of entering--but none of that reluctance applies to free nursing care!
So I'd be delighted to keep it, *if* someone could figure out a way to eliminate the perverse incentives.
[[Outlaw social workers.]
Absolutely. Could we add personal-injury lawyers to the list?]
You bet!
[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants.]
I disagree on this one, immigrants (legal or otherwise) probably contribute more in taxes than they take in services. And without immigration, NYC would have a shrinking population a la Detroit or Philadelphia.]
I wonder. Illegal immigrants are part of the subterranean economy, and probably don't contribute income taxes. They don't vote, and that hurts us. Then too, people bring their superannuated parents here. Mostly, I'm reluctant to sanction lawbreaking, particularly since illegal (as opposed to legal) immigration creates second class citizens. At the very least, I think I'd have to have better figures.
[[Reduce taxes to match the sunbelt states.]
Good idea, though it would be no panacea.]
No, but I'm perfectly content if people want to move elsewhere because the weather's nicer or there's more space or what have you. It's the shooting ourselves in the regional foot business that bothers me.
[[Eliminate open admissions.]
And while we're at it, I'd vastly downsize the CUNY system.]
I agree. It should grant real four year degrees to real students the way it used to; I'm all in favor of remediation for those who are motivated, but why pay a PhD to do what should be done through the high schools?
I was going to say give CUNY to the state, but then we already did that. Does the City contribute to CUNY? I gather it maintains some control. Either way, it strikes me as nonsense for the City to be running a university, just as it strikes me as nonsense for the State to be running local schools.
[[End bilingual education.
Restore tracking.
Restore neighborhood schools.
Eliminate special education for any but the handicapped.]
Good ideas all, but we'd also have to get rid of the teacher's union.]
Covered!
Also, I forgot about abolishing tenure--and raising teachers' salaries to make them competitive.
[[Charge riders for the actual operating cost of their ride.]
Maybe - I'm still not convinced.]
I didn't know you weren't
[[Charge drivers to enter Manhattan.]
No. Doing so would make NYC less attractive to business.]
That's always a concern. But we already do charge drivers, or at least the PA does; I'd simply close the loopholes in the system. And I wouldn't send the money to general revenues--I'd use it to build a transportation infrastructure so good it would become a regional asset. People would stop at the closest park and ride facility and take the train in not just because it was cheaper, but because it was faster, more convenient, and more comfortable than threading through rush hour traffic.
[[Abolish borough presidents.]
I can't figure out why we still have them.]
Patronage, I think.
[[Get the mob out of construction.]
That's been happening already.]
Has it? That's good news. Do they still have to hire imaginary Teamsters?
[[Arrest subway musicians and beggars.]
Beggars, yes, as well as the people who give them money. I'd allow some musicians, within limits.]
LOL, how about soundproofing?
{[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status.]
I disagree on this one.}]
I thought it would be controversial. But I'm not sure I understand why. AIDS can't be cured, but it can be prevented easily enough--and we've doomed millions to death because we've refused to do that.
[[Rebuild Penn Station.]
I disagree, we can get by without it. ]]
Awe, that's my favorite proposal!
[Illegal immigrants are part of the subterranean economy, and probably don't contribute income taxes. They don't vote, and that hurts us]
Legal immigrants cannot vote either, you have to US citizen.
Arti
[Legal immigrants cannot vote either, you have to US citizen.]
Good point. I was thinking of naturalized citizens. But I still feel uncomfortable about illegals. Because they have to be paid off the books, they're regularly exploited. Someone who's here legally can go to the state if his boss doesn't pay him--not an illegal. That's not just a problem for the aliens, who aren't supposed to be here in the first place, but for American citizens and legal immigrants who get shafted because businesses find it more economical to abuse the illegals.
[That's not just a problem for the aliens, who aren't supposed to be here in the first place, but for American citizens and legal immigrants who get shafted because businesses find it more economical to abuse the illegals]
Another cathegory is H1 legal non-permanent residents, they cannot easily change their jobs thus making them very dependent of the employer. BTW regarding illegals there's a proposal for another amnesty for those here before 1986.
Arti
[Another cathegory is H1 legal non-permanent residents, they cannot easily change their jobs thus making them very dependent of the employer. BTW regarding illegals there's a proposal for another amnesty for those here before 1986.]
Talk about perverse incentives! Seems to me they should just increase the quotas and have a genuine crackdown on illegal immigration.
But then there are those who would argue that it's necessary to have a subclass of low wage citizens so that the country can compete.
Similar amnesty was declared on 1986, I think you had to be here for at least 15 years but I'm not sure. One way to look at it is that these people are de facto naturalized and if they are legalized they will start paying taxes.
Arti
When illegals are given an amnesty, are they immediately eligible for applying for citizenship, or must they wait five years after amnesty?
They'll get the "Greencard" first, then they have to wait for 5 years after what they can apply for citizenship.That's how it worked last time.
Arti
Actually according to the law only permanent residents (greencard holders) can become naturalized citizens.
Arti
You have a point.
This is really confusing.
Can you use <BLOCKQUOTE> to start your quotes instead of a [ and </BLOCKQUOTE> to end them?
I suppose so. It's a lot of typing (or pasting), though. Some people used to use italics, but again, that's clumsy when you have to type in the tags.
Is there message board software that quotes prior messages with arrows like Usenet or email? I think it would make this board much easier to use for posters and readers alike.
Most of us don't quote the prior messages, though, because it means that much more to scroll through and additional download time (not a problem for me, but it is for a lot of folks). I will only quote if it is necessary to make the point, or to clarify which part of a long message I am responding to.
When it is necessary to quote, the italic option is (to me at least) the most readily identifiable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Most of us don't quote the prior messages, though, because it means that much more to scroll through and additional download time (not a problem for me, but it is for a lot of folks). I will only quote if it is necessary to make the point, or to clarify which part of a long message I am responding to.
When it is necessary to quote, the italic option is (to me at least) the most readily identifiable.]
True. But I always find myself going back and looking at the prior message, which takes even more time.
It's actually an option, to include the message being replied to into the reply box, but it's an all or none thing. I fear most people would not bother to erase the material that they were not replying to.
Sofar I find this format to be the best.
Arti
[It's actually an option, to include the message being replied to into the reply box, but it's an all or none thing. I fear most people would not bother to erase the material that they were not replying to.]
I'm not sure. Technically, quoting isn't all or nothing on Usenet, because it can be turned off in a newsreader, but in practice almost everybody has it turned on and there are complaints when somebody doesn't. It seems to work well enough there, though there are always a few who don't erase old stuff and others who misattribute quotes.
Maybe the thing to do is to try it and see if everybody likes it?
I get on a board that uses a shareware program that copies each post to the reply box. It gets really irritating to read through lines of prior message text (set off with :) because the replyers didn't bother to delete the copied text in the reply box. On the whole, it's a pain.
The shareware BBS software has one other problem. It gets VERY unstable if the message load gets over 2500. Three boards that I frequent that use it have crashed at least three times in two years, with the resulting loss of the posts. One board shut down completely, because the Webmaster got tired of rebuilding the Board after the crashes. The site is still running, but the BBS is gone.
I like what Dave has here. It's stable,and can carry some heavy post loads. Dave has tweaked the software a bit to improve the performance.
And unlike USENET, where you have different servers running at different rates, here everything is one. Messages are available immediately (with reloading of course), but on USENET, you could have a huge thread start in one day, then a week later you finally see the original message.
And messages on most USENET servers tend to expire faster.
[And unlike USENET, where you have different servers running at different rates, here everything is one. Messages are available immediately (with reloading of course), but on USENET, you could have a huge thread start in one day, then a week later you finally see the original message.
And messages on most USENET servers tend to expire faster.]
True, though the better servers (Mindspring, some of the pay services) don't really suffer from these problems. The main thing I like about Usenet is that it's much faster--I can automatically download all the messages in a group when I get the headers, so I can read through them without a wait. Also, I like having the groups and message headers on the left while the messages are on the right.
It isn't that clumsy. While <BLOCKQUOTE> is long (they should have let it be abbreviated to BQ), italicizing is only 3 or 4 chars long. I can understand having to hit SHIFT for the < and > though, but don't we do it with names, the beginnings of sentences and I anyway?
[It isn't that clumsy. While is long (they should have let it be abbreviated to BQ), italicizing is only 3 or 4 chars long. I can understand having to hit SHIFT for the < and > though, but don't we do it with names, the beginnings of sentences and I anyway?]
True, but it's still more typing, and you have to think about it . . .
And see, when you copied, you didn't replace < with < and > with > so it takes <BLOCKQUOTE> literally!
Oops
Among the many responses is one that says the mob influence in the construction trades has been declining. Is this really the case? If so, what is the story behind it? Is this Giuliani's accomplishment?
Changing economy :-) ((
Arti
[Among the many responses is one that says the mob influence in the construction trades has been declining. Is this really the case? If so, what is the story behind it? Is this Giuliani's accomplishment?]
Supposedly there is less mob influence than in years past. I don't know that for sure, it's just what I've heard.
Most likely, the general decline in the mob's strength is more significant than any of the mayor's efforts.
Sounds like a deal.. I've said myself if I were ever elected to such a job I'd probably be assassinated too. I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things; not all. Was glad to see vreate REAL jobs. Something that offers mopre than a sub-welfare living standard. But there's a fly in the ointment: the troublemakers with nothing else to do would get their attorneys and drag it all into federal court and the@#$!%^&* would undo all the good. Have you read BOSS (meaning Richard Daley Sr) by the late great Mike Royko? If you can find a copy its great. Stick with it.. what ticket will you be on? Ha Ha.
[Sounds like a deal.. I've said myself if I were ever elected to such a job I'd probably be assassinated too. I'm in agreement with you on a lot of things; not all. Was glad to see vreate REAL jobs. Something that offers mopre than a sub-welfare living standard. But there's a fly in the ointment: the troublemakers with nothing else to do would get their attorneys and drag it all into federal court and the@#$!%^&* would undo all the good. Have you read BOSS (meaning Richard Daley Sr) by the late great Mike Royko? If you can find a copy its great. Stick with it.. what ticket will you be on? Ha Ha.]
Funny, I'm not sure whether people would call me an arch-conservative-fascist (wants to close public housing) or lefto-liberal-commie (wants to eliminate poverty by giving everybody jobs with living wages). How about the Dead Mayor's Party, since that's what I'd be after everyone from elderly Jewish ladies to gay Rastafarians stormed City Hall?
Maybe NYC national-socialist. (It's a joke :-)
Arti
Government doesn't create real jobs, businesses create real jobs, and businesses refuse to hire Afro-Americans if they can help it.
One other criticism. NYC can't cut taxes to the national average, let alone the sunbelt, without accepting public services with far lower spending than elsewhere -- as a result of federal funding formulas.
Remember also that much of the nation does not have subways, professional fire departments, public water and sewer, public trash collection, local parks (upstate gets state parks), local police (rural areas get state police and just a few local cops), etc. You get the picture.
We ought to get what we pay for, but there are certain things a city has to have. In exchange, we have cost cutting economies of scale -- which the federal government offsets with subsidies for rural areas. Ie. rural roads, electrification, small city air service deliveries, rural free postal delivery, and (once Al Gore OR George Bush gets in) rural internet subsidies to help move the new media industry out of NYC.
[Government doesn't create real jobs, businesses create real jobs, and businesses refuse to hire Afro-Americans if they can help it.]
That may have been true at one time, but it's very seldom the case anymore. Most private businesses choose employees according to their qualifications and potential. Race and ethnicity aren't in the mix. Yes, there are exceptions, but most of them are notable because of their rarity.
[That may have been true at one time, but it's very seldom the case anymore. Most private businesses choose employees according to their qualifications and potential. Race and ethnicity aren't in the mix. Yes, there are exceptions, but most of them are notable because of their rarity.]
A few years back my brother worked for a temporary agency. When he tried to get a job for a black secretary whose qualifications were in every way equal to her white equivalents, no one would accept her. It turns out that businesses use the temp agencies to avoid hiring black secretaries. The main reason--attitude problems, which aren't just peculiar to poor black residents but to ghetto residents in general as things now stand. I've seen many examples myself. OK, rant about to begin:
THE FUCKING SCHOOLS HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS FOR BEHAVIOR FOR THESE KIDS. Kids can talk back, act out, and dress like fools, and the teachers aren't allowed to punish them. That creates a situation in which teachers and administrators become nasty themselves. When these kids grow up and enter the workforce, they're apt to be sullen, slow workers with attitudes, who talk back to their bosses and insult customers. They go nowhere and don't understand why, or blame it on the boss or racism.
Businesses don't want to hire them, but since discrimination is illegal it's hard to avoid. My guess is that that's one of the things that makes them reluctant to locate in the City--but it's something they won't ever say, because they're sensitive to accusations of racism and to the legal ramifications.
Whether Black people deserve to be hired or not, and deserve equal pay or not, is a subject for debate, but the initial fact is indisputable.
In 1980, and in 1990, the average white high school dropout earned more than the average Black or Latino high school graduate. The average White high school graduate earned more than average Black or Latino high school graduate. (census, public use microdata sample run).
This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact.
[Whether Black people deserve to be hired or not, and deserve equal pay or not, is a subject for debate, but the initial fact is indisputable.
In 1980, and in 1990, the average white high school dropout earned more than the average Black or Latino high school graduate. The average White high school graduate earned more than average Black or Latino high school graduate. (census, public use microdata sample run).
This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact.]
I don't want to give the impression that I'm overlooking or minimizing the history of out-and-out discrimination against black (or Latin-American or Chinese or Jewish or Female) Americans. But the issues are a good deal more complex than we typically acknowledge. Asians suffer at least as much discrimination as Hispanics, but they do better. Puerto Ricans are near the bottom of the economic heap in New York City, but in the rest of the country they've done extremely well.
A high school diploma really means nothing if you're rude to customers or talk back to your boss. Every time I leave the City I'm struck by the difference in attitude, work ethic, and capability between the people at the checkout counters at the supermarket. It's soemthing that goes way beyond traditional New York City gruffness. You could almost map American social trends by doing a survey of checkout counters.
I think this is an issue that gets buried in political correctness. A little shouting match "Business won't hire Blacks or open in Black neighborhoods!" vs. "Blacks don't work as hard and disrespect the boss!" might clear the air. Ignoring the issues ensure they will never go away. No business is willing to admit it tries to avoid hiring Afro-Americans (they still want them as customers), so they never say why.
[I think this is an issue that gets buried in political correctness. A little shouting match "Business won't hire Blacks or open in Black neighborhoods!" vs. "Blacks don't work as hard and disrespect the boss!" might clear the air. Ignoring the issues ensure they will never go away. No business is willing to admit it tries to avoid hiring Afro-Americans (they still want them as customers), so they never say why.]
Not to mention legal liability.
It won't even be discussed here on Subtalk, which is surprising the way the post and insults fly whenever race is even on the margin.
I've learned that subjects that don't quite fit anyone's ideology and self-interest seldom appear in public discourse.
You could almost map American social trends by doing a survey of checkout counters.
Tonight was a good example. I was in a grocery store in a neighboring town - not a store I usually shop at, but I was detouring that way because of problems on the Garden State and my daughter had asked me to pick up a couple of items for dinner. I could not find any Velveeta, of all things, which my daughter was going to use for macaroni and cheese (she's a vegetarian so my nice juicy hamburgers don't hold any appeal for her). When I asked the clerk at the service desk I was told that they didn't carry it because their class of customers didn't buy it, but I might be able to find it at a store in Long Branch or Asbury Park (LB is 60-70% minority, mostly Hispanic with some blacks, and AP is nearly 100% black). As it happens, I did find it, several aisles away from where I expected it would have been, while heading for the soup aisle to get cheese soup as a substitute. She was quite surprised when I brought it back and showed it to her. Not only did they have the brand name, but they carried the store equivalent as well. Interesting though how the clerk associated that food item with a particular socio-economic strata.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"This may be the result of discrimination, connections, or a bad attitude among those not hired or given raises. But it is a fact."
I don't think that anyone doubts that there is higher unemployment and "underemployment" (working but at a low-paying job) among blacks than whites, and that discrimination has a definite part in it.
[As an aside, strictly from personal observation and by no means scientific, I would say that the effects of discrimination hit black men MUCH harder than black women. In any office I've worked in, dealt with regularly, or even just visited, there is a **significant** proportion of black women in the workforce but not nearly as many black men. This could support either theory presented in this debate. It's evidence of stereotyping, as black men are perceived as much more threatening than black women, but it's also evidence for the "bad attitude" theory, as in general men of any race are more likely to "mouth off" to customers and bosses than women are.]
But some people here, including myself, object strenuously to your characterization that "business" -- meaning ALL business, no exceptions -- avoid hiring blacks if they can get away with it. It smacks of the old saw that all whites are racists. Or at least all those evil bourgeois capitalist white people.* This is just as bizarre and even in its own way naive a position as the other extreme, that discrimination has been vanquished and all hiring is done nowadays strictly on a merit basis. It's a near-slanderous insult to every private-sector personnel/human-relations director in the country to assert that the only reason blacks get hired in the private sector is to avoid boycotts or legal charges of discrimination.
*If I didn't have some idea of your politics from your positions in other postings, I would have presumed that WAS your meaning.
In 1962 when i was in high school in Brooklyn, there was some black students who were constantly bothering the rest of the class which had a high precentage of blacks as well as other minorites,when we asked the troublemakers why do you keep doing this don't you relize that if you don't graduate you will not get a good job.....the" reply i plan to be on welfair like the rest of my family.".....
[We ought to get what we pay for, but there are certain things a city has to have. In exchange, we have cost cutting economies of scale -- which the federal government offsets with subsidies for rural
areas. Ie. rural roads, electrification, small city air service deliveries, rural free postal delivery, and (once Al Gore OR George Bush gets in) rural internet subsidies to help move the new media
industry out of NYC.]
What's funny is that all of these rural subsidies have accomplished very little. All around the country, most rural areas are stagnant at best, in decline most of the time. The exceptions tend to be very distant exurbs or vacation-home locations. By and large, the suburbs are where the growth is, and their subsidies are more limited (consisting mainly of road construction).
Speaking of Al Gore, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that he's looking more and more like Vince McMahon's twin?
[Speaking of Al Gore, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that he's looking more and more like Vince McMahon's twin?]
Maybe because he's a Jabroni?
'Can you smell.....'
;-)
,,,...........count los angeles out of this .......a massive almost lifelong failure.....!!......want proff...???
???????????????
ditto
I've always wanted to know what the hell PROFF means.
.....to the two last threads.....the proff is the removal of the pacific electric rail cars and trolley pcc cars...in Los Angeles county...
& southern california & the totally efficent massive mass rail transit system..... track mileage the equal of new york.....
that is osme of the answer to the last two threads .........PROFF.........& ........????????????????????????
if you dont believe me go to the history books on this .....!!!
Salaam- the word you are looking for is: PROOF, not Proff. It is only a typographical error.
wayne
A typo is when you make a mistake once.
When you make the same one, consistently, it's something else.
[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead. ]
Wellfare and workfare are products of economic depression. Don't see that in NYC. I'd eliminate welfare and let them find jobs themselves.
Or they could get a Greyhound ticket and find another area where they get paid for doing nothing:-)
[Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing. ]
Agreed but so that the developer could do anything with the property.
[End rent control. ]
It's phased out already. But immediately revise ridiculous rents not even covering the maintenance.
[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.
[Arrest subway musicians and beggars. ]
..and stop giving musicians permits to perform in the subway.
[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status. ]
Can't be done, unconstitutional and unecessary as the HIV is pretty much under control, and it is a felony to knowingly infect someone.
[Build the world's tallest building. ]
What has city government to do with that. Getting little Socialist here? :-)
Rest of it I pretty much agree or have no opinion.
Arti
[[Eliminate welfare. Give people real jobs instead. ]
Wellfare and workfare are products of economic depression. Don't see that in NYC. I'd eliminate welfare and let them find jobs themselves.
Or they could get a Greyhound ticket and find another area where they get paid for doing nothing:-) ]
In truth, I think we should have public jobs program at the national level, with a negative income tax a la Moynihan to encourage private enterprise to employ low level worksers. Not welfare, not workfare, just honest work. It would pay a living wage and set a minimum standard. No perverse incentives here, because you'd have to work. I couldn't care less about the lazy, but if someone wants to pull his own weight I'm with him 900%!
[[Sell the muncipal hospitals.
Sell public housing. ]
Agreed but so that the developer could do anything with the property.]
Absolutely! That would be true of private landlords too, once a lease was up.
[[End rent control. ]
It's phased out already. But immediately revise ridiculous rents not even covering the maintenance.]
AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* (only way the landlord could get his hands on her $200/month 14-room prewar apt). But I should have said I'd get rid of rent stablization, too. And I'd establish what I call a "no-op" plan--it would allow people to get an automatic, no paperwork, no downpayment mortgage and reap tax advantages from the Feds while bringing housing costs down by restoring the housing liquidity that's been killed by co op conversions and rent control.
[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.]
I'm not sure about that. You can't tell someone he can't go to court, or send his kids to school, can you?
[[Require mandatory confidential AIDS testing and make it a serious felony to have sex with someone without informing them of your HIV status. ]
Can't be done, unconstitutional and unecessary as the HIV is pretty much under control, and it is a felony to knowingly infect someone.]
What's unconstitutional about it?
As to HIV being under control, there are still *lots* of people getting AIDS.
[[Build the world's tallest building. ]
What has city government to do with that. Getting little Socialist here? :-)]
No way! We've seen what happens when government builds tall buildings--they build two of the world's almost-tallest buildings instead of one of the world's tallest, sheesh! I'd let Donald Trump build it, as long as he didn't make it pink. He wanted to do it in the 66th Street yards, but people wouldn't let him, and I don't blame them--it belongs in a business district.
[[[End all but emergency services to illegal immigrants. ]
Instead of immigrants for everybody who can't pay.]
I'm not sure about that. You can't tell someone he can't go to court, or send his kids to school, can you? ]
Well you can't deny a non-immgrant (tourists) these services either.
[AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* ]
She's not going to live forever. If apartment gets vacated rent control ends. Same about rent stabilization. Do you know what's the share of these?
[with a negative income tax a la Moynihan to encourage private enterprise to employ low level worksers. ]
But this in effect is a subsidy creating jobs otherwise not-profitable.
[What's unconstitutional about it? ]
One could argue it's illegal detention.
[As to HIV being under control, there are still *lots* of people getting AIDS. ]
Not at pandemic levels anymore.
Arti
[AFAIK there are still people in rent controlled apartments, like the mother of a friend of mine who gets to stay in an 8 room prewar apartment for the rest of her life *free* ]
She's not going to live forever. If apartment gets vacated rent control ends. Same about rent stabilization. Do you know what's the share of these?]
She'll live for many years--she's 65 or so now, and will quite likely live into her 80's or 90's. And the way the law is now, she'll be stuck in a large apartment, because it would actually be more expensive for her to move to a smaller one. That's the great sin of rent control/stablization/vacancy decontrol/senior citizen rent exemption, and why it's driven up the price of housing so dramatically.
Unless things have changed, rent stabilization goes on forever. New construction isn't covered, though.
[But this in effect is a subsidy creating jobs otherwise not-profitable.]
True. I'm opposed to subsidies in general, but it seems to me that both decency and intelligent self-interest mean that we should give jobs to the unemployed. Decency because we're easily wealthy enough to afford it, and if some guy is trying I think we should help him out. Intelligent self-interest because people with jobs are likely to raise kids with very different values than people who are on welfare: values like hard work, thrift, responsibility.
The trick as I see it is not to distort the economic picture by creating perverse incentives.
[One could argue it's illegal detention.]
I'm not sure that would wash. All we're talking about here is a mandatory test, and you can force someone to give blood in a medical exam for the draft . . .
{Not at pandemic levels anymore.]
? I don't have recent figures, but worldwide it's certainly still a pandemic, and in this country it's still hitting the gay and poor communities very hard. However many people are getting it, I don't think they should die, and from a purely selfish perspective I don't think *I* should face the risk of getting it, even though that's fairly small.
[Unless things have changed, rent stabilization goes on forever. New construction isn't covered, though. ]
My impression was that the same rules applied on both rent control/stabilization.
[The trick as I see it is not to distort the economic picture by creating perverse incentives. ]
Highly doubt that NYC government would be capable of that.
[All we're talking about here is a mandatory test, and you can force someone to give blood in a medical exam for the draft . . . ]
Always suprised me that mandatory mil. service was not challenged.
[and from a purely selfish perspective I don't think *I* should face the risk of getting it, even though that's fairly small.]
Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.
Arti
Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.
Unfortunately, there's still blood transfusions, and despite the testing done on all donated blood there remains a risk. That's how a number of children have contracted the disease. I have no sympathy for those who voluntarily engage in behavior that might lead to contracting the disease, but I have a great deal of sympathy for its innocent victims, be they children born to an HIV-positive mother, hemopheliacs, rape victims, or spouses unwittingly infected due to the irresponsible behavior of their husband or wife.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can't believe that!! Do really people get HIV via unchecked blood xfusions. Tell me this is not true.
Arti
[I can't believe that!! Do really people get HIV via unchecked blood xfusions. Tell me this is not true.]
The risk is very low, but it's still there.
And it's not that the blood is unchecked - it is, but no test is 100% foolproof. Call me chicken, but one of the reasons I have not had some knee and hip surgery that might help me walk better is the fact that I would need a couple of pints of blood - and, because of other medical problems, I'm not a candidate for self-donation as an alternative.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Call me chicken]
Wouldn't but dacades after the problem was idntified, I don't think you'll have anything to be worried about.
Arti
[The risk is very low, but it's still there. ]
The whole life is a risk. Driving without seatbelts is a risk.. If you behave reasonably (no swinging :-)) you chanches of getting infected are less than being in a plain crash.
Arti
[The whole life is a risk. Driving without seatbelts is a risk.. If you behave reasonably (no swinging :-)) you chanches of getting infected are less than being in a plain crash.]
Depends on where you are. It's heavily localized in some geographic areas and among some subpopulations, and lots of them are in New York.
I knew a woman who was a junkie, and she told me that she had lied to her boyfriend about her drug use--this after her husband had died from AIDS. I find that sort of thing fairly chilling.
[I knew a woman who was a junkie, and she told me that she had lied to her boyfriend about her drug use--this after her husband had died from AIDS. I find that sort of thing fairly chilling. ]
That's why it is a good idea to have an HIV test with you partner before engaging in sex.
Arti
[That's why it is a good idea to have an HIV test with you partner before engaging in sex.]
Not very romantic, though. Candles, music, vials . . .
[Always suprised me that mandatory mil. service was not challenged.]
I think there were people who asked that question when conscriptoin was first introduced, but courts have a way of overlooking constitutional provisions in times of national emergency; at the time, the constitution was stretched in many other ways. It's almost as if the constitution has an unwritten provision built into it that says, stick to these ideals *to the extent you reasonably can.* In any case, I'm not sure what provision you'd use to challenge it--freedom of speech and association aren't broad enough.
[Prevention: condoms, monogamic relationships etc.]
That's not prevention, it's risk minimization. You may be monogamous, but your lovely new wife may have been a junkie or the whore of Babylon. Just look at those weird personals ads, the ones that say "discrete." There are lots of people out there doing really weird things that their partners don't know about! 60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point.
As for condoms, they don't begin to offer 100% protection, though sadly enough they slow the rate of transmission enough so that if everybody used them the disease would die out.
[though sadly enough they slow the rate of transmission enough so that if everybody used them the disease would die out. ]
Why is it sad?
Arti
Because it's such a simple remedy. But people don't do it, and many have died as a result--including complete innocents like children.
It looked like you were sad about the condoms slowing the rate of transmission.
Arti
[You may be monogamous, but your lovely new wife may have been a junkie or the whore of Babylon. Just look at those weird personals ads, the ones that say "discrete." There are lots of people out there doing really weird things that their partners don't know about! 60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point.]
"Afternoon encounters" is another code term in the personals. I am suspicious of those percentages you've given. I've seen others that are far lower. It all probably depends on who's asking the questions, and how the questions are worded.
One interesting thing I read about extra-marital affairs is that most involve married men and single women, with a smaller number involving men and women that are both married, but to other people. The percentage that involve married women and single men is exceedingly low, probably not more than two or three percent.
["Afternoon encounters" is another code term in the personals. I am suspicious of those percentages you've given. I've seen others that are far lower. It all probably depends on who's asking the questions, and how the questions are worded.
One interesting thing I read about extra-marital affairs is that most involve married men and single women, with a smaller number involving men and women that are both married, but to other people. The percentage that involve married women and single men is exceedingly low, probably not more than two or three percent.]
So if you're going to fool around you should do it with a married woman . . .
I got the figures off a silly religious website I visited by mistake a few days ago--just happened to remember them. Not the world's best source, but I've seen broadly similar figures elsewhere.
[60% of American men have affairs, as do 30% of women, and a majority of guys will visit a prostitute at some point. ]
This would render mandatory HIV test meaningless. Or would you recomend repeating it after every 3 mo, I think that's the time it takes for the virus to achieve detectable levels.
Arti
[This would render mandatory HIV test meaningless. Or would you recomend repeating it after every 3 mo, I think that's the time it takes for the virus to achieve detectable levels.]
I'd certainly recommend repeating it--it would be fairly useless if you didn't. My main concern would be that people would conclude that they were safe and be more likely to engage in unprotected sex. Still, Cuba successfully prevented the spread of AIDS, and while I deplore their Draconian measures its evidence that it can be done.
[My main concern would be that people would conclude that they were safe and be more likely to engage in unprotected sex. Still, Cuba successfully prevented the spread of AIDS, and while I deplore their Draconian measures its evidence that it can be done.]
I think there is enough public awareness. As for Cuba I wouldn't trust what they claim, remember there was no AIDS in Romania during Chaucescu (or however his name is spelled.)
Arti
The musicians are OK - the panhandlers and beggars have GOT TO GO.
Krazy Glue guys are OK as long as they aren't aggressive.
wayne
[The musicians are OK ]
Some of them are very loud and right on the platform, so there's no escape.
It would be OK with me if they were in mezzanines.
Arti
How are you going to cut taxes by putting so many people in jail?
Fortunately, in some jurisdictions, it is now required that the legislature appropriate the $$$ when they enact laws to send people to jail.
[Well, even today Chicago is still rife with examples of bad politics, crooked ward bosses and dead people voting. Such a political culture seems to be as much a part of Chicago as the lakefront, the L, and Wrigley Field. Don't expect it to go away anytime soon.
At one point just about every major city in the country experienced a period when it was dominated by machine-style politics. New York had Tammany Hall, Cincinnati had Boss Cox, the list goes on. But Chicago's machine learned an important lesson that was lost on most of those other cities: Voters usually have a high threshold of tolerance for municipal corruption, but they get very angry when municipal services and public infrastructure suffer in the process. Chicago took heed, and even today the city's municipal services and public works projects serve as gold mines for political patronage jobs in return for political and financial support come election season.
If Richard Daley were mayor of New York, his mouth would be watering at the prospect of all the no-bid contracts he'd be giving to his friends and all the favors he'd be doing to organized labor by building a full Second Avenue Subway. And since he's The Boss, he would have the power to make it happen tomorrow. For better or worse, no other large city government is closer to a benevolent dictatorship than Chicago.
In Chicago the question the question has never been how you made it, but if you made it. This city was built by great men who demanded that drunkards and harlots be arrested, while charging them rent until the cops arrived."
-- Mike Royko
It's not a pretty process, and it's not cheap, but it works.
-- David]
I think it worked in New York, too. The City boomed under Tammany Hall. Cronies got rich, but the subways got built.
I think New York's problems have to be seen in a different perspective:
-The NYC and NY State developed a huge welfare system when they were the richest and most populous area of the country. But beginning in the sixties, as the poor migrated in vast numbers from rural areas to the City, the region's generous welfare policies--and that includes "white welfare" to the unions and politicians, not just welfare for the poor--began to strangle it. High taxes and poor services drove out prosperous residents and businesses. The City reached a point where any increase in taxes actually reduced the tax base, and that led to bankruptcy.
-The constitutional prejudice against urban areas hurts cities when it comes to funding. Subsidies for the South and West, enacted by a generous Northeast at the height of its prosperity, mean that money continues to flow away from the region. The South gained political power, and when its turn to control things had come, did not reciprocate.
-Welfare-related violence and busing also drove out middle class residents, reducing the City's tax base.
-These phenomena were apparent in many American cities. The ones that did and do best were the southern cities, which offer little in the way of welfare benefits. But NYC actually did better than most older cities--look at Newark or Detroit. Even LA, while it prospered for a awhile, eventually went downhill--and like other cities, suffered from riots which New York City managed to avoid, in part because the infamous Mayor Lindsay walked the streets of Harlem in his shirtsleeves when things got hot.
-NYC suffered a bad rap because of the bankruptcy--caused by a combination of the City's odious unions and welfare policies--and because as the country's largest City, it got the lion's share of bad publicity. But even at its worst, it was only #6 in the national crime statistics, and most of that crime was committed within the ghetto.
-NY State, like other states, dumped its mental patients on the City. This created the problem of homelessness--once bums became acceptable, junkies and alcoholics moved out of their traditional haunts and began to engage in behaviors that would have been unacceptable a few years previously.
-Idiotic court decisions really hurt the City. It became impossible to control porn shops, loiterers, beggars, subway musicians, wandering madmen, etc. That led to a huge reduction in the quality of life, and contributed to the exodus of businesses and middle class residents.
-The City ceded control of many important functions to the corrupt, incompetent, and out-of-touch State government during the fiscal crisis, and still doesn't control its own schools or transportation. The result has been moderately disasterous.
-After the collapse of the hapless Beame administration, much of the damage that did occur to the City was reversed during the Koch, Dinkins, and Giuliani administrations. But they're limited in what they can do by the State and the Feds. The City operates under all sorts of odious court and government mandates. If the City so much as keeps a homeless family waiting in an office overnight, it gets fined. Suburban communities give their mental patients bus tickets to the City, which has to care for them. Money that should educate children goes to dribblers in special education classes. The City has to provide apartments at luxury prices to junkies and madmen. Etc., etc.
-At the same time, the City has to be blamed for maintaining and encouraging politically popular pork like rent control and cowtowing to every NIMBY, union, and aggrieved-minority-who-will-riot-unless-people-who-can't-add-get-into-City-College type.
-But overall, the City really hasn't done that badly. Further improvements will require action at the State and Federal level, and by the courts.
[aggrieved-minority-who-will-riot-unless-people-who-can't-add-get-into-City-College]
Hey, I love that term! Of course, it's sort of irrelevant, because people who can't add (or manage to use the toilet without assistance) DO get into City College :-)
Thanksfor sharing my thoughts in another message you sent. Thanks also for the education given in your long story. I can add 2 things to confirm a lot of what you write: 1) in the intro to Sherlock Holmes Detective stories Dr. Watson described London as a city where all the empire"s (British) got dumped; 2)I've never been sorry for living in Montana for 22 years but many of the welfare ideas being racially based when one lives in the city get disproven when you live in small towns..not as much as numbers are so much fewer; any problem including drugs and teenage motherhood and other "big city'inner city"lifestyles exist in too many of these towns. But the initial topic being rail transit and cities I still maintain that for a city where rail transit is a way of life New York is backward; with less service than existed 60 years ago, or less potential if nothing else.
Not only is there less service, but the trains have been slowed down. Thundering along CPW at 45-50 mph is now a thing of the past.
[But the initial topic being rail transit and cities I still maintain that for a city where rail transit is a way of life New York is backward; with less service than existed 60 years ago, or less potential if nothing else.]
To say the least! And that date just happens to correspond to the City's takeover over the private transit lines . . .
It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.
[It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.]
We had some discussions here about privatization some time back, but I'm not holding my breath--too many fingers in the pot. OTOH, if the London Underground is successfully privatized, maybe it will serve as a salutory example.
Perhaps we can coax Lady Thatcher out of retirement . . .
[It seems obvious in retrospect that it would have been better to have private transit providers. The Pols could not tolerate raising fares to allow necessary spending. The unions were dealing with sitting
ducks once transit was government controlled. Modern transit has become yet another mode for redistributing wealth, while those with large means do not dream of subjecting themselves to the degraded experience of the subways. Everyone wanted something for nothing. In the long run, everyone lost out.]
It's hard to say what would have happened had the City not taken over the IRT and BMT in 1940. I suspect that they wouldn't have lasted all that much longer even if their fares hadn't been artificially surpressed. Postwar suburbanization, the rise of the automobile, and the end of the 5 1/2 day workweek probably would have doomed them by the early to middle 1950's, at the latest. But we'll never know for sure.
A good argument even though I've always felt that a railroad is a business and should be run by business people. I think if they were allowed to make a profit the IRT and BMT could have survived, and pay taxes to boot. But then there are the memories of the suburban railroads carrying on about their losses on commuters and the eventual public takeover of suburban mass transit. Of course the properties were taxed quite heavily too. Then of course the final straw was the creation of Amtrak , unfortunately even at present fares no form of rail transit (or for that matter most bus lines)make a profit. People movers generally. The one token exception seems to be Greyhound and perhaps some regional intercity busses. Airlines? I doubt that if oyou were to dig deep enough that they'dbe making money if it weren't for mails, public facilities and gosh knows what aid they get that you never hear about. The only thing some pols complain about is subsidy to mass transit [rails mostly] and Amtrak.
[But then there are the memories of the suburban railroads carrying
on about their losses on commuters and the eventual public takeover of suburban mass transit. Of course the properties were taxed quite heavily too.]
What we need to remember that initially the RxRs made lots of money, i.e. some of the most well known fat cats from those days long ago were rail barrons. Then things changed & it became harder & harder for them to make extraordinarily profits. The public & politations slapped taxes on them (rightly so initially), but weren't willing to reduce the burden when they started loosing money. So RxRs walked away from the money loosing passenger business. In NYC there were several incidents where the owners demanded a fare increase or else, the politations called there bluff and ended up with a trolley/subway/commuter rail/bus line to run.
Now local governments want to get out of the transit business. If they give the new owner/operator the ability to make a reasonable profit, but keep them on a short leash so that service & maint. doesn't suffer it could be a very good thing. HBLR & Phoniex (Valley Transit) are examples of this new trend. I consider the "private" bus companies in NYC a kind of 1/2 way approach because there are still a great number of government people involved, so the "operators" don't have a lot of say in the equipment bought or service provided.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are my own.
Mr t__:^)
I believe that if the city had taken back the TRACKS AND STATIONS, which it owned, and used tax dollars to maintain and upgrade them the way it uses tax dollars to maintain and upgrade public buildings and roads, then the private companies could have made money on operating the subway VEHICLES. We could still do that deal today. Same with the commuter railroads, if they weren't so featherbedded. So could express buses. You'd have just needed to allow fares to rise with inflation.
The government made railroads pay for themselves and pay taxes, while roads were paid for and tax free.
Local Buses are more of a problem. They are really a social service for the elderly and those too poor to own cars, and are expected to provide mobility on routes that don't pay.
Express bus service ... at $3 vs about $5 for the LIRR ... not too much room to raise this money looser.
Local bus service ... some routes carry enough folks to almost pay for them selves, but 24 hours a day incl. frequent mid-day is a big cost for a lot of mostly empty buses. So the question is SERVICE vs. profits. Government would need to set the service level & pony up the cash to provide it. You would need folks with sharp penciles to ensure that the public is getting the best deal. At DOT that kind of effort goes on, but does it at TA ?
The subways seem to carry a lot more folks more of the time, so it seems logical that a fare increase & some fat cutting could make it pay for itself ... capital improvements is another issue which you seem to agree should not be left up to the "operator".
Mr t__:^)
The commuter fares are higher, yet the farebox recovery ratio is always lower, why? The very nature of the commuter service makes it a loser. If the subway was comprably priced (I mean same rate per mile), then it could turn a profit.
The DC Metro, which uses this system, is more like a commuter railroad that doesn't require a transfer at a central terminal downtown. And acts as the subway downtown, with normal fares.
[The commuter fares are higher, yet the farebox recovery ratio is always lower, why? The very nature of the commuter service makes it a loser. If the subway was comprably priced (I mean same rate per mile), then it could turn a profit.
The DC Metro, which uses this system, is more like a commuter railroad that doesn't require a transfer at a central terminal downtown. And acts as the subway downtown, with normal fares.]
The commuter RR's pay their employees much more money than NYC transit and uses them less efficiently--the fare collection system would have been familiar to Dickens. But the NYC subway system is fairly unique among modern transit operations because the difficulty of driving in the City leads to unusually heavy usage. The commuter RR's, while they have plenty of passengers, are basically peak services, meaning that the ROW, vehicles, and operational employees are underutilized most of the time.
The NYC subway could make a profit if privately run, even with ongoing capital expenses, but it would reqire drastic changes in labor practices and/or the fee/service structure. You would effectively have to kick out the union and do everything as economically as possible--one and then zero person train operation, unattended stations, part time employees, that sort of thing. Or you wold have to charge fares and offer services on a zone based, peak/off peak/way offpeak basis. It costs a small fortune to carry someone to the Rockaways at 3AM.
[The NYC subway could make a profit if privately run, even with ongoing capital expenses, but it would reqire drastic changes in labor practices and/or the fee/service structure. You would effectively have to kick out the union and do everything as economically as possible--one and then zero person train operation, unattended stations, part time employees, that sort of thing. Or you wold have to charge fares and offer services on a zone based, peak/off peak/way offpeak basis. It costs a small fortune to carry someone to the Rockaways at 3AM.]
Changes might not even have to be that drastic. If you exclude capital expenses (granted, a big "if"), farebox revenues bring subway reasonably close to break-even. It might not be necessary to get rid of the unions entirely, if there could be some common-sense compromises.
Rather than see high "way offpeak" fares, I'd reconsider whether 24/7 service at virtually all stations really makes sense. You're right that it costs a lot to take a passenger to the Rockaways at 3AM. A "true cost" fare would cost an arm and a leg. I would ask whether such service is really necessary.
[Changes might not even have to be that drastic. If you exclude capital expenses (granted, a big "if"), farebox revenues bring subway reasonably close to break-even. It might not be necessary to get rid of the unions entirely, if there could be some common-sense compromises.
Rather than see high "way offpeak" fares, I'd reconsider whether 24/7 service at virtually all stations really makes sense. You're right that it costs a lot to take a passenger to the Rockaways at 3AM. A "true cost" fare would cost an arm and a leg. I would ask whether such service is really necessary.]
That's the problem with subsidies, and why I favor charging something like the actual cost of providing a service. No more political arguemnts about whether one or another uneconomical service should be retained: people can decide what something is worth to them. I doubt that we'd see 3 AM Rockaway service very long if the fare went up to $20.
But I think you're right about changes not having to be that drastic--I was using the extreme case as an illustration. In practice, I think the subways could become profitable with a combination of changes in work rules and uneconomical scheduling. I'd like to see the government pay for the maintenance of the ROW, with fares paying for service and rolling stock, which would give it parity with cars.
[It's hard to say what would have happened had the City not taken over the IRT and BMT in 1940. I suspect that they wouldn't have lasted all that much longer even if their fares hadn't been artificially surpressed. Postwar suburbanization, the rise of the automobile, and the end of the 5 1/2 day workweek probably would have doomed them by the early to middle 1950's, at the latest. But we'll never know for sure.]
They might have required a subsidy, but then, maybe not--after all, the BMT squeaked by even with the 5c fare, and the IRT would have if it hadn't been required to maintain unprofitable el service. It seems to me that an inflation-adjusted fare would have accomodated the drop in ridership.
Even if subsidies had been required, the private operators would have been more efficient.
Addenda: Dr. Watson sid all the empire's garbage got dumped on London. One word left the punchline hanging.
>>>politically popular pork like
rent control<<<
Necessary, though, to keep rents in the boroughs from rising to Manhattan's outlandish levels...
www.forgotten-ny.com
So what? There are plenty of areas that are poor and downtrodden that could use people who are priced out of new Yuppie havens near Manhattan. There will certainly never be a point where any outer-borough will be consistently overpriced like Manhattan. If that happens, you'll see taller buildings going up in places. Although I'm sure that NIMBYs will oppose zoning changes that will allow detached one familys to be replaced with 2 or 3 family rows, 7 floor apartment buildings and eventually high-rises.
If rent control was ended, other than a few neighborhoods (Forest Hills), rents in the outer boroughs would stay the same or fall.
There are lots of people outside Manhattan who'd rather be in Manhattan, but cannot get an affordable apartment there because so many are "occupied" by people paying $500 a month, some of whom sublet and live elsewhere. Ending rent control would throw a lot of those units on the market at, say, $2,000 per month. That would stop rents in neighborhoods attracting Manhattan wannabes from rising to the $2,000 per month they can afford.
Rent regulation primarily benefits those paying below market rents in Manhattan. In the outer boroughs, rents are either unregulated (in 2-3 family homes), no higher than they would be anyway, or low but balanced by lack of maintenance.
]>>>politically popular pork like
rent control<<<
Necessary, though, to keep rents in the boroughs from rising to Manhattan's outlandish levels...]
I don't think that would happen. It's a supply and demand thing, after all. If landlords raise the rents to high, people will move elsewhere.
Econ 101: subsidies and price controls create inefficiencies of use and shortages, and ultimately *drive up* the price of a product. New York Econ 101: combining price controls with partial destabilization and perverse tax incentives drives the cost of a product through the roof.
What I'd expect if we eliminated rent control is a sudden rent increase to start, followed by an overall decrease as people moved and housing stock was used more efficiently. Ultimately, average rents would be higher than they are now in the most desireable neighborhoods, lower in the shoulder neighborhoods, and much lower in outlying areas.
Keep in mind that the City didn't have rent control prior to the Second World War, and not only did things work fine, most of our current housing stock was built.
[What I'd expect if we eliminated rent control is a sudden rent increase to start, followed by an overall decrease as people moved and housing stock was used more efficiently. Ultimately, average rents would be higher than they are now in the most desireable neighborhoods, lower in the shoulder neighborhoods, and much lower in outlying areas.
Keep in mind that the City didn't have rent control prior to the Second World War, and not only did things work fine, most of our current housing stock was built.]
My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan (which doesn't mean that I favor keeping rent control, however). Figure it this way - the costs of construction being what they are, any newly constructed unsubsudized apartment building has to charge very high rents. Apartment shortages caused by rent control mean that there are plenty of people who are willing to pay these high rents. Now, get rid of rent control, and the rental vacancy rate is likely to rise substantially, at least in the initial stages. You might very well see fewer people willing to pay the enormous rents in new buildings. Many of them might instead go for that eight-room prewar on the Upper West Side that's now occupied by an elderly widow paying $300/month.
(My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan).
Bear in mind that while new rental buildings are theoretically exempt from rent regulation, that law could change at any time. In fact, lots of new rental housing was built in the 1950s and 1960s with the promise that it would be exempt from rent control. Then in 1969, rent stabilization was created and applied retroactively to the new, "exempt" buildings.
One reason little rental housing is built is the difficulty of getting financing. You want to invest your 401K in NYC residential apartments? I sure don't.
When you think about, rent control and rent stablization spring from the same political mindset that gave New York City the mandated nickle fare through the 1920s and 1930s. It was great for the politicians to use to curry favor with the voters, but by keeping the fare below resonable market prices, the city ended up putting the IRT and BMT out of business. The rent policies of the city have led to the abandonment of buildings in less desirable neighborhoods, and the strange situation that apartments that are less desirable will have tenants who pay higher rents than those in more desirable spots, because those people never move out.
Hence, the $2,000-a-month one-bedroom, one-half kitchen walkup.
[When you think about, rent control and rent stablization spring from the same political mindset that gave New York City the mandated nickle fare through the 1920s and 1930s. It was great for the politicians to use to curry favor with the voters, but by keeping the fare below resonable market prices, the city ended up putting the IRT and BMT out of business. The rent policies of the city have led to the abandonment of buildings in less desirable neighborhoods, and the strange situation that apartments that are less desirable will have tenants who pay higher rents than those in more desirable spots, because those people never move out.
Hence, the $2,000-a-month one-bedroom, one-half kitchen walkup.]
Yeah. It really hurts the City overall, making it virtually unaffordable for young middle class people with kids, while driving the poor out of marginal areas that gentrify.
It also retards the cycle of replacement and rewnewal that allows neighborhoods to respond to supply and demand.
[Bear in mind that while new rental buildings are theoretically exempt from rent regulation, that law could change at any time. In fact, lots of new rental housing was built in the 1950s and 1960s with the promise that it would be exempt from rent control. Then in 1969, rent stabilization was created and applied retroactively to the new, "exempt" buildings.
One reason little rental housing is built is the difficulty of getting financing. You want to invest your 401K in NYC residential apartments? I sure don't.]
It probably would be unlikely in the extreme to apply rent regulation to new construction in a retroactive manner. If the city tried, the building owners and lenders would fight tooth and nail, and the whole matter would be tied up in court for years.
There's clearly a lot of new residential construction going on right now - check the west side between 23rd and 34th streets - but I don't know how much is rental and how much is coop/condo. I suspect there's more of the latter, condominiums in particular, simply because homeownership makes a lot more sense than renting. If you own a condominium, you get a neat income tax deduction for mortgage interest and property taxes, plus you benefit from appreciation and amortization (with the 15-year mortgages that are quite common today, you start seeing amortization far sooner than with a 30-year). You get none of that, of course, with a rental.
[If you own a condominium, you get a neat income tax deduction for mortgage interest and property taxes, plus you benefit from appreciation and amortization (with the 15-year mortgages that are quite common today, you start seeing amortization far sooner than with a 30-year). You get none of that, of course, with a rental.]
Unfortunately, that creates a perverse government incentive really hurts the efficiency of the City's housing supply. It's so much work to buy and sell and apartment that people don't move very often. One of the reasons the City worked as well as it did was because people used a fluid rental market to compensate for the high cost of space and the fact that they couldn't add a new bedroom when a new kid arrived. Then too, it's virtually impossible to demolish a co-op bulding and put in something bigger and more appropriate if demand changes.
One possible solution which I think I mentioned a few days ago would be to create a new type of automatic condominium mortgage. The down payment would be equivalent to today's security deposit. The building would manage the loans, and the law would be written to allow the management company to repurchase the apartment under terms similar to those in a lease, providing the equivalent of eviction and obviating the need for overly thorough background checks. In short, it would act like a rental, but would confer the tax and capital gains benefits of ownership to rich and poor alike.
The structure you propose is actually very similar to a time share condominium, which is fairly common these days. You rproposal is essentially just that one owner will own all of the "time" in a unit. Usually, these are not a great deal for the owners, expecially because they are usually done in resort areas by operating companies interestedin making money managing the buildings. However I suppose that they could be structured in a way that might make sense for permanent residents.
[The structure you propose is actually very similar to a time share condominium, which is fairly common these days. You rproposal is essentially just that one owner will own all of the "time" in a unit. Usually, these are not a great deal for the owners, expecially because they are usually done in resort areas by operating companies interestedin making money managing the buildings. However I suppose that they could be structured in a way that might make sense for permanent residents.]
Interesting. I'm far from up on real estate, as you can see!
[My guess is that abolishing rent control might lead to a dropoff in new apartment construction, at least in Manhattan (which doesn't mean that I favor keeping rent control, however). Figure it this way - the costs of construction being what they are, any newly constructed unsubsudized apartment building has to charge very high rents. Apartment shortages caused by rent control mean that there are plenty of people who are willing to pay these high rents. Now, get rid of rent control, and the rental vacancy rate is likely to rise substantially, at least in the initial stages. You might very well see fewer people willing to pay the enormous rents in new buildings. Many of them might instead go for that eight-room prewar on the Upper West Side that's now occupied by an elderly widow paying $300/month.]
I think you're right about the demographic changes, insofar as this is now the province of rent control/stabilization (co op conversions have taken a huge slice out of the upscale rental market). It's a perfect example of how it would benefit overall housing prices. But I'd expect things to get more expensive closer to the core of the desireable housing stock.
[In an ideal world, the flow of benefits or money from New York to New Jersey should be utterly irrelevant because both areas are parts of the same region. New Yorkers have got to stop their parochial way of thinking. Wake up, the world DOES NOT end at the Hudson.]
I don't see how not wanting to be ripped off makes one a parochial country bumpkin, or the world stop at the Hudson. I live in New York, and the taxes I pay are insane. They aren't going to me, and they aren't going to help little orphan children in Hoboken either. And while it's well and good to rail at New York City's construction problems, the days when the City paid its muncipal employees more than other areas of the region are gone. Now they receive less. We've basically squeezed the goose that laid the golden eggs until it can't lay very well anymore.
Also, you talk as if the PA didn't put funds in NY because of construction boondoggles, but you know that has nothing to do with it. They won't even let the MTA bring subway access to the Laguardia terminals! That's about as helpful to the region as subsidizing sports stadiums.
[My reaction is, big deal. If we think of New York and New Jersey as identical component parts of the *same entity*, it makes no difference which side is more generous with the other.]
I think that's oversimplifying the situation. When the City contributes too much to New Jersey or upstate or anyplace else, it has to raise taxes and reduce services, making it a less attractive place to live and a less attractive place for businesses. That in turn hurts NJ and the other suburban areas, which are dependent on Manhattan's prosperity. If Manhattan were safer, the subways and trains faster and more comfortable, the streets cleaner, it would benefit everybody.
But more than that--the sort of unfairness I'm mentioning results in boondoggles, money going where it isn't needed for political reasons. And that wastes the region's resources, and makes it less competitive. The business with the airports is a prime example: the PA built up Newark airport for political reasons, and that was all well and good as far as it went--it made the region stronger. But at the same time it starved JFK of funds, and JFK turned into a dump. And that made the region weaker.
Don't get me wrong--I don't see anything wrong with one part of the region spending extra money to build up another if there's a reason. Economically, we're one big town with a huge central business district. If the region will benefit by improving roads for manufacturers in New Jersey or commuter access to Midtown, I'm all in favor of it. It's just that that's not what's happening, not by a long shot! Look at how far we are from having the sort of trasnportation infrastructure we should--direct commuter access to the business districts, comfortable stations and fast, uncrowded subways for commuters from inside and outside the city, park and ride garages with plenty of capacity, new highways to relieve congestion, PATH/subway/Light Rail integration, freight service to Brooklyn and Queens, fast one seat rides and links between the region's three airports. The State won't build these things because--too much money to Manhattan. The City can't build these thigns because all its money goes to the State or State-mandated programs like Medicaid. The PA won't do these things because it's blocked by politics.
[The $5.00 feet is inexcusible, however. They want the airtrain to break even so more airport profits will be available for the PATH, but they don't want to charge people to take in from the parking lot. Hence, they overcharge the transit rider -- who is paying the same $3.00 passenger facility charge on the ticket to build it. The fare should be $1.50.]
Let's see how long that fee lasts when nobody uses it. They should offer a free transfer to the subway, which would attract airport employees, and a $5, maybe $10 ticket for direct service via the LIRR--whatever it takes to pay the actual cost of the operation.
(Since not all subway trains could go to the airport, it would I think be better for passengers to transfer at Howard Beach and the otherwise useless Jamaica terminal.)
[I'd like to hear an explanation for why the airlines oppose funding for something that will make it *easier* for people to get to the place where they do business. This stance does not make sense to me.
Personally, JFK is my *last* choice if I'm flying from NYC because it's so difficult and expensive to get to from most of the city, compared to LGA or EWR. I'd almost rather go to White Plains or Islip!]
Rumor has it the airlines were afraid direct subway service would bring a skell infestation. Rumor also has it that PA board members from NJ opposed a one seat ride to JFK because it would create competition for Newark Airport, and that to use ticket fees Federal regulations meant that the PA would have had to build an entirely new ROW into Manhattan at exhorbitant cost.
*But*--at the behest of New York State, the PA is now looking for a private partner to offer one seat service from JFK to the new Farley terminal. The MTA is opposed, of course--damn bureaucrats don't want to take five minutes to figure out how to get the extra trains into Penn, but the Airlines are now behind the proposal, perhaps because it doesn't involve the risk of a direct subway link.
I suspect that the whole thing is a way to get around the Federal regulations: government may not be able to run direct service without buying the Airtrain loop for $1.5 billion, but there's no reason they can't accomodate vehicles owned by someone else. The authors of the Talmud would be proud!
I dont follow your last point. If the Airtrain is funded by non PFC money, why wouldn't it be able to run whatever service it wanted to?
[I dont follow your last point. If the Airtrain is funded by non PFC money, why wouldn't it be able to run whatever service it wanted to?]
Because construction was funded by a ticket surcharge.
Everybody's already written off Airtrain as a hopeless case. I say let's wait and see. Surprises do happen, after all.
I just rode it on Sunday. It was a lot of fun and affords great views. It still smells like a brand new car and goes fast in parts. Every train has a security agent and so do some stations. Every car has video camera on the outside (I didn't notice one on the inside). The railfan view is superb. Not only can you easliy watch the track but you're basically looking over the driver's shoulder. You can see exactly what button and switches the driver is using and they are clearly labelled so you know what exactly what they're doing. You can also watch the speedometer. I never saw it go above 50 and there's a red line between 60 and 70 (which appears to be the max). In addition, it's very progressive in that some stations are active but the developments around them have yet to be built. This strategy was used in Portland and worked in forcing the developers to build around the stations, thereby making the stations a focal point and reducing the residents reliance on the automobile.
But:
1. The system uses the very European, and inefficient, method of ticket validation. First, you have to purchase your ticket from a machine. The you have to take your ticket (and there are no obvious signs telling the customer to do this) and stick in a validation machine which stamps it with the datetime.
2. You cannot transfer from any other public transit method free onto the light rail.
3. The signs at Liberty Park Station only show that the train for Bayonne stops there. There is no sign indicating that one could catch the train for the West. There are NO announcements at that station that one can transfer to the other line.
4. The train conducters are too nice! If they see people running toward the train, or buying tickets they'll wait until they're on the train before moving forward. Only once, when these guys were taking way too long, did they train leave with people still on the platform.
5. Nobody ever checked my ticket. Maybe they don't check on Sundays.
6. There are these gray vertical bands every few feet or so which appear to be Next Stop Requested indicators like you find on busses. I was tempted to push one but I was afraid it would cause an emergency stop. There are no signs labelling them.
Answer to 6: I pressed it, it caused the automated voice to say that the stop was requested and show that on the display.
Car # 3805 continues to be hooked up to modified car # 3682, and is running on the C line. Due to this, it is also being stored at cleveland circle instead of riverside.
I have also seen car # 3808 running with # 3622, but I don't know what line they are on at the moment. -Nick
Type-8/Type-7 3808/3622 is running on the B/Boston College. A third Type-8 is rumored to be coming back to revenue service next week.
While having my friendly jabs with Brighton Beach Bob, it struck me that aside from the Sea and Brighton Beach lines, there are no open cuts in the system. Or are there? I must admit that I have nor rode every line from terminal to terminal so I might have missed some. Can someone out there tell me if the IRT, for instance, has any part of its system that's open cut? Or any of the BMT's that cross over the Willy B.
Well, not counting transitions from tunnel to surface, the West End line is in a cut from 9th Ave to the interchange with the SBK. The Dyre Ave line has portions that are in a cut, and I think that's it.
-Hank
.....hank........ if you think thats bad wait until the redbirds are gone the few 142s who replace them with ( less trains )
then less and less service etc.........If they had it thier way the entire subway system would be scrapped
then you would be stuck with buses & your personal car !! aka the pacific electric electric system ......
all across the country all of the trolley systems should have never been scrapped not only L.A. ca. !!!
Some would count the L near the cemetary, where half is on the surface and half is underground. The Franklin Ave. shuttle is 2/3 cut.
Part of the Franklin shuttle's in a cut.
wayne
The Franklyn Shuttle if you think about it is really part of the Brighton.
pssst... does the Port Washington line count???
In the beginning, but they numbered it the 7 for many years.
Does Amtrak still operate the 14 Rohr Turboliners built in 1976 that served on the Empire Builder? What about the 12 French ANF-Frangeco Turboliners built in 1974?
Daniel
I don't know about the French sets, but at least 4 Rohr sets are being rebuilt by the state of NY for High-Speed Empire Corridor service (NY-Albany-Buffalo)
-Hank
Empire Service, Not Empire Builder. The Empire Builder froms From Chicago to Twin Cities and then to the Pac Northwest.
They used to run them on the Hiawatha between Mill. and Chicago. (The first leg of the Empire Builder)
As for the rebuilds I heard the prototype rebuild was running. Is that true if so how is it doing?
Will there be a total of 4 train sets or the prototype and 4 more in progress?
The plan is for a total of 7 rebuilt Turboliner trainsets. If by "prototype" you're referring to the single trainset that was rebuilt under a previous initiative (some years ago-- not directly related to the current rebuilds going on), that will also undergo the current rebuild and counts as one of the 7. If instead you're referring to the first of the trainsets finished under the current rebuilding program, it's good news if it's actually out and running; I haven't heard anything about it, though it should have been done a month or two ago.
Back in the 70s I remember taking a train (Amtrack) on the New Haven Line from Providence RI to Boston, was that a Rohr?
I would say a United Aircraft Turboliner. The French/Rohr on the NH is rare.
I didn't say Builder, I said Corridor.
-Hank
That remark was in response to the original post, not yours.
Ah. Well, you should've backed up one more post before responding so I could figure it out!
-Hank :)
Last night I was watching the movie WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S 2 on COMEDY CENTRTAL and it was showing subway scenes on a R62 train on the "Shuttle" and it was showing scenes at Grand Central shuttle platform and I also saw some scenes on the "6" train but show most scenes on the "Shuttle" and some good playing scenes on the R62 train and a character was playing like died on the train. And it was a funny movie but my great scene were from the "Shuttle" train it was very funny.
Saw R42 49## on the J, dark, with a broken door and sporting exterior grafitti ....
The skells probably heard about the MTA debt and decided to start practicing for 2004.
Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Hope someone at Jay Street has heard that parable before.
The turnout was great and, Nobody passed out from the 90+ degree tempature. We walked the ROW from Port Richmond to State Street, Arlington.
Thank you for coming and stay tuned........Another walk on a rail ROW is planned soon.
-Mark W.
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club is a new webpage that will not only connect you to your favorite transit links, but will allow you to have your own free email, search, shop and chat all from one location. There is even a link to this site. It's a great starting point for all of your web surfing. To reach the site just type http://www.dotplanet.com/groups/default.asp?gid=13714. Then create a password and enter registration # 290EA. Then make the page a favorite so that you can access it with one click. Happy surfing, Bob DiStefano.
I tried it,,it did not work
The Stillwell trip is scheduled for 5/17 at 4pm for first meeting at Main Steet, 5pm at Times Square and 6pm at pacific Street
An hour from Main St to Times Sq? are you guys planning on crawling? If I have a late job on Thursday the 18th, maybe I'll find you somewhere along the way.
05/08/2000
[ 5pm at Times Square and 6pm at pacific Street]
If I wish to join at Pacific St, where will the group congregate? North end, south end or middle?
Bill Newkirk
SOuth end- near the head car!
A Date has been finalized for Sunday, May 21.
Meeting Place: Canarsie "L" line Southbound platform at Broadway Junction.
Time: 11:00 am
Details/itinerary: Leave Broadway/Junction at 11:30 to Atlantic Avenue station. Tour the remaining sections of the structure. Then proceed south to Livonia Ave. where the flyover to Linden Shops is easily viewed. Continuing down to New Lots Ave. for a photo-op of the old brick fare-control building (very untypical of old BMT station-houses). There is also the remnants of the old LIRR/BMT switch connection at New Lots. At Rockaway Parkway the group will proceed south along the former Canarsie ROW to observe some remnants and end up at Canarsie Pier for an antique auto show. This should be approximately a 2-hour trip. Bring a camera -- bagged lunch optional.
For further details, please contact me at my e-mail address.
Doug aka BMTman
I expect to be joining Doug on this day. Are there any other souls interested in going on an adventure?
-Stef
I will be attending my younger daughter's graduation from college in Staunton, Virginia, so I guess I'll have to pass :-(
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have loved to do this tour. I'm coming back from Toronto on this day, though, so I'll have to pass.
--Mark
I'll try . It sounds like a good jump in time . Will any of the LIRR cut be examined? Sure wish we could have it declared a historic land mark or move it to Central Park as a Mueseum/monument/restaurant with a trolley line and horse omnibus beneath. Rent it out to movie makers?
wake up avid, its just another dream bubbling up.
avid
Hey Doug,
Sorry but I won't be able to attend- I have a sweet 16 which I already RSVP'd for that day.
-Harry
I may or may not, I want to but plans are in the air for the last two weekends of the month pending a graduation of two cousins.
I'll try to be there.
Ill be there. I will probably meet u guys @ Livonia.....
Email me Doug with more info......
3TM
The posters started going up this afternoon on the R32's and platform at Jamaica Center. For the next 4 weekends (and "the extra day" over Memorial Day weekend), the following stations will be closed: 23/Ely, Lex/53rd and Fifth/53rd. The G.O. itself did not come out yet explaining the scope of the work, and bus service to/from Queens Plaza will have to be provided for Court Sq. "G" station. There will be split "F service: 179 St. to 34/Bway (N/R s/b express platform)and Stillwell to 42/6th., presumably relaying at 21 St/Queensbridge. The E will be suspended entirely with the R being extended from 71/Continental to Jamaica Center. Transfer at 34 St. between the 2 "F" services. Transfer to/from the "R" at Times Square with the "A"/"C" for Eighth Ave. service. There will be "take one" handout booklets availiable at Queens IND stations.
According to the NY Division/ERA "Bulletin" that just arrived, this GO is for work in the 53rd Street tubes.
The article says that the southern F service will relay from 42nd street back to 34th street, thus not going to Queensbridge.
I don't recall if this is simultaneous or at different times, but another GO will have B trains terminating at 57th/6th, with a B shuttle from 21/Queensbridge to 57th/7th.
Right, Todd. Also this means that the WTC platform for the E train will be closed.From the WTC you can take the R (to Parsons) on the R platform, the 1 or walk down the passageway to the A,C or 2,3
I wonder if
R BROADWAY LOCAL
R JAMAICA CENTER
is one of the messages on those R46 signs.
No, there is apparently no regular code for the R on the R46s that say Jamaica Center as a destination or terminal. If there is no special code that they can use for this general order, what might wind up happening is that the R46s might be shelved for the weekends, and they might be replaced with R32s.
You'd think there was, with all the different permutations programmed into those electronic signs. Looks as if they missed that one.:-)
I am a conductor on the "E", "F" and "R" lines. There are over 1000 different combinations of destinations for the R46 programable signs.
At the 95th Street dispatchers office, there is a complete listing of codes for the "R" line signs. There is definately one that says R-Jamaica Center. There is also a code for R- 179 Street and R- Ditmars Blvd- Astoria. Since I normally work the "E" on Saturdays, I will probably be on the "R" Instead. I am sure there will be extra service. I will find out Friday night, when I am on the "R".
If I were home, I'd check the list (an unamed person was so kind to send it) But considering it allows for the A to 205 St-Norwood, I'd say it allows for the R to Jamacia Center.
-Hank
The R46 digital signs can be easily programmed for this GO. In fact, they can be programmed for any GO. Their memory contains the programming for all 468 subway stops. Wanna ride the Y train from Elderts Lane to Burnside Ave? The R46 signs can actually show that.
Not every station...just every place (or close to it) in the BMT-IND where a train can be turned, plus a few other signs (LIRR, METRO-NORTH, etc.).
David
Not true. I've seen trains flashing such non-terminal stations like Beach 44th St and Wykoff Ave.
I didn't say anywhere trains ARE turned, I said anywhere trains CAN BE turned. Basically, the signs include readings for anywhere there's a switch, plus a few others (LIRR, etc., as I mentioned before). The R-44 and R-46 signs do not contain IRT-only destinations, and they do not contain every BMT-IND station.
David
Neither Wykoff Ave nor Beach 44th St can be used to turn trains around. I've seen many more of these stations where there are no switches present flashed on an R44/46 digital sign. They obviously do have more than just possible terminal stations programmed inside. Since the signs are digital, it's relatively easy to program and store every station in the system, something impossible with roll signs.
Fine. Maybe it's POSSIBLE to store all stations on the R-44/46 digital signs (I'll check if I remember), but it isn't done! I've got the list, and not every station's on it.
David
Maybe the two of you would like to fight!!!
David, is it possible for me to obtain these lists for the electronic signs on the R44s and R46s? Being a subway conductor myself, it is often frustrating not being able to put up the proper signs and destinations on these trains. Currently, I'm working the A line. I've spoken with dispatchers and superintendents in the RTO Division and nobody has a set listing for all of the correct codes for the R44/46 equipment. Any help you or anybody else can give would be greatly appreciated.
My copy is the New York Division ERA Bulletins from a few years ago. They didn't contain the sign codes.
David
saw last night about 11:30, an F at Lex F Culver Lcl
Coney Island
Via 8th Ave...
as all service was running on 8th Ave..
How about the K from Coney Island to Parsipanny NJ via 8th Ave. or the P from Whitehall to Flushing? Or the U train from Pelham Bay Park to Coney Island via Bridge(My 2nd Ave. Subway)?
I checked with the guy in charge of the sign readings. There are 1,089 readings on the R-44/46 side signs. Every BMT-IND station is in there, as are some other readings (LIRR, etc., as I've said). There are NO IRT readings.
There may be room for more readings; he wasn't sure.
I would think so, with no "E" service, there should be plenty of R32 for the "R" service.
Pray tell, what are they doing in the tube that requires this heavy a G.O. ? They're not getting ready to unleash the rehab at Lexington Avenue station, are they? It will take an army of plumbers and masons to plug and fix all those leaks. That station needs to be EMBALMED!
wayne
Oh, come on now. It can't be as bad as Chambers St.:-)
Concrete pour in 53St tubes
Actually, can't they show the destination without a route? Or R Listen For Announcement (Have seen that one).
I once heard that the the SIR Tottenville branch was set to meet the Arlington trains at St. George. Is this true? Do they still run using that schedule? Anyone have a old SIR schedule with them?
SIR runs to meet the ferries, always has, and likely always will. It would be a fact of the scheduling that Tottenville trains met Arlington trains at St. George, as well as South Beach trains. All were keyed to arrive about 10-15 minutes prior to the ferry departure to Manhattan, and all left within 10 minutes of the ferry's arrival.
-Hank
I know that Coney Island Yard is actually 3 different yards. Where do each line (B, M, N, F ,D & Q) goes ?
I've been off the system for 23 years so things may have changed. My memories are the the Culver service (F since Nov 67, and D from Oct 54 till then) was the only line to use the "City Yard" as they called it then, between the loop and Mc Donald Ave; likewise they didn't use the rest of the yard. Other services used the tracks betwwn sides of the loop; also some trains for those lines were stored at Stillwell Yard between the Sea Beach and West End tracks if I remember.
Coney Island Maintenance Shop and Yards
B N Q Franklin Shuttle ---Maintenance and Inspection s
D F M layup and receive cleaning and running repairs,,and car washes
SI Transit also involved in overhaul activities
TAPD ,Firefighting schools,,etc
Stillwell Yard-----
layups for B and N Lines
Culver (Av X or City) for the F Train
Pages 89-93
Tracks of the NYC Subway
Second Edition
Steve Lowenthal
There's obviously an error in the book because 14 - 15 D trains lay up in Stillwell yard every night along with several Q trains.
How many D trains and B trains lay up in Concourse Yard every night?
Chaohwa
D is 30 trains during peak hours. 14 at Stillwell yard and 10 run all night which means that 5 lay up at Concourse Yd. and one on C-2 track behind 205th Street. The B lays up 3 trains in Concourse Yd. at night and 5 between the AM & PM.
There hasn't been a TAPD in over 5 years!!
OK,,we still say Transit Police onthe job ,the layman knows them as NYPD only
Steve
OK,,we still say Transit Police onthe job ,the
layman knows them as NYPD only
Steve
Technically the Police Officers assigned to the subway work for the "NYPD Transit Bureau". I asked an officer the other day if an officer can pick where they want to work and I was told they can (sometimes).
Couldn't resist this:
The International Herald Tribune claims to be the "world's daily newspaper", "published with the New York Times ans the Washington Post"
On the front this morning is a feature abount Ken Livingstone's election as Mayor of London (an incredible victory in its own right). Transport in London is rightly identified as the major issue, and we are treated to front page photos:
One is claimed to be "A crowded Underground platform in London" and it is crowded, but it shows a British Railways Southern Region 'slam door' train, just pulled into a terminus, possibly Charing Cross. Not only did the last slam door trains run on the Underground in 1962, but they also vaanished from South London commuter trains a few years ago too. This error is of about the same magnitude as claiming that an electro-diesel LIRR train is a subway train.
> but they also vaanished from South London commuter trains
I rode a Connex train from Victoria to East Croydon on April 21, 2000, it was a slam door variety (two or three slam doors per side per coach). Here's a picture of it:
I found it hard to believe they are still used at all considering they have practically no safety systems (to prevent the doors being opened while the train was moving, for instance).
The MBTA commuter trains have the standard sliding doors, but these don't have any safety systems either. There is nothing to prevent the doors from opening while the train is moving, and the trains frequently ride aroun with doors open. As for the slam doors, I see the reasons for eliminating them, but they are kind of cool looking.
David is of course right, there are plenty of slam doors in action all round the UK, and when a train arrives late, they are a useful way of venting frustration.
Even South of the River Thames though, there is a distinction between local and long distance traffic (for thouse with maps, it is trains terminating roughly at Dartford, Orpington, Croydon, Sutton, and various short branches starting from Waterloo). Slam doors have been eliminated from all of these short commuter runs which mainly serve London and the immediate built up area.
There is definitely a safety issue, and stories of children opening and swinging on the doors while the train is in motion are not unknown. There is not even talk of removing slam doors from my local line though (the Clacton Line from Liverpool Street). Of course, its a money issue, but now that locks have been fitted to high speed trains (no more door blowing open and nearby passenger getting sucked out at 125 mph) most door accidents are the passenger's fault, and its much harder to get compensated for being silly in the UK.
And, of course, Graham Chapman is no longer around to stop anyone if they get too silly.:-)
I understand his memorial even says, "Stop us if you think we're getting silly."
Sounds like an excellent motto for public sector workers (i.e. including myself, before anyone reaches for vitriol).
Lets go completely off topic, Monty Python have performed at least one sketch on a bus (the Spanish Inquisition) but I can't recall any involvement with the London Underground in any way. Have I forgotten anything?
I think I know that sketch. Three of the clan are on a bus responding to "I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition" line while the closing credits are rolling, and just as they get to where they were going, the credits end, the screen cuts to black with "The End". Michael Palin is all ready to say, "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" and gets as far as "No one" before realizing the show is over and says, "Oh, bother".
AFAIK, there were no sketches involving the Underground. British Rail is mentioned occasionally; the Dead Parrot sketch comes to mind.
Yes, thats the one, and it still makes me laugh just thinking about it. Strange, but British Rail jokes have always been part of British humour, but the Underground is tends not to be.
I'm surprised they never considered putting John Cleese at either a British Rail or Underground station behind that desk of his and having him say, "And now for something completely different".
Guess someone reached too far back in that file to get a "file photo" :)
--Mark
i've been reading the board over the last couple of
days, and wondering what it was that used to make me
want to hang out here?
maybe i was just getting off on my own sense of
humor?
the message board really does seem like children
playing around a sandbox... but at least real little
kids have fun... a lot of kids here seem to more
involved with making fools of others and of
themselves...
you really shouldn't worry about being called GAY...
worry more about being cruel, boring and humorless..
Said like a true statesman. You've got my vote, heypaul.
hISTORICAL FICTION repeats itself. In the last true to life fictional adventures of BMTman & heypual the dullwitted Wagoneers saved themselves by brawling over the trivial.
Some nation states and belief systems do the same. The become boring and are avoided. Their own actions push them to the wayside and the world will pass them. They will wallow in third and forth world swill.
For some, time is precious. We won,t allow our time to be squandered by the infantile grandstanding of those who lack respect for others.
I treasure the knowledge that all of you share, but keep your bitterness.
avid
AMEN - Leave us ignore the malcontents, the dull-witted and the race baiters. Now back to trains.
......thats what i say about some of these threads attacking me my religion calling me racist ..... all false etc....
and by the children who post this hate on what is supposed to be a rail transit forum ....
children fighting in thier sandboxes !!!!!!!
perfectly said, i never get involved in those sandbox threads, i don't even read them. can't people just carry on a conversation like they were talking face-to-face? i doubt everyone would be insulting each other if we were all in the same room.
heypaul, have you noticed that none of the boring and humorless subtalkers have responded to this thread?
Until now :-)
"maybe i was just getting off on my own sense of
humor?"
And maybe the Pope is Catholic. You know,Paul, we've disagreed publically and privately in the past. But here I must agree with you. You and your few 'followers' have added little in the way of useful or significant information here.
Two more sets of R142A Cars are near completion at the Yonkers Kawasaki Heavy Industries plant.
Nothing can be said about the Bombardier cars yet, and thank god because the Bombardier cars not doing that well.
During the recent test period, the Bombardier cars have shown to be alot of trouble and needed much adjusting while the Kawasaki cars show to be 99% flawless.
This is also the reason why the TA shifted gears and gave the option order to Kawasaki completely.
GO KAWASAKI!!!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Uh oh. Now what happens with the Bombardier Cars? What will Bombardier do to fix the problems on these cars?
The option orders - Each company has an option order for additional cars. By giving Kawasaki the option order completely, do you mean that they also got what was supposed to be Bombardier's?
-Stef
Exactly, Bombardier will no longer hold the cards for option cars. As a matter of fact I have pics of Kawasaki Cars #7209 and 7210 which were suppose to be Bombardier cars.
Kawasaki is a better built and better look car compared to the Bombardier R142. The Bombardier R142 looks very sloppy while the R142A from Kawasaki looks tight!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Kawasaki is a better built and better look car compared to the Bombardier R142. The Bombardier R142 looks very sloppy while the R142A from Kawasaki looks tight!
Aren't they supposed to "look" the same?
--Mark
They are suppose to, but there are differences in the end designs. The sides are the same though. Take a look below and compare:
Kawasaki R-142A:
If you look below the LED Sign you'll notice that it's smooth, lineless, the operators window looks nice and rigid. Very Tight Looking!
Bombardier R-142:
If you look below the LED Sign you'll notice a line and a small indentation from that point down, also the driver's window is more rounded off. Very Sloppy looking!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Can't really tell from those pics. The second pic is from a completely different angle, and completely in shadow. You can't make out the detail. Do you have a pic of the Bombardier car in the light, from a similar angle as the Kawasaki car?
-Hank
it looks ok to me the design gives both makes identity. the bombadier isn't sloppy looking at all. its made that way so u can tell them apart from kawasaki
Unfortunately I do not see the same detail as you - the two pictures are from different angles and one is shadowed.
--Mark
<and 7210 which were suppose to be Bombardier cars.>>
To alter the option order on those cars that fast, wouldn't the change have had to have been made at least a year ago? Building subway cars takes a little longer than something like baking bread, so if the MTA ordered a change in the option order, there would have to be some kind of lag time between the change and the delivery from Japan to Yonkers.
HERE IS 7210
HERE IS 7209
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I don't doubt you on the numbers, but as Hank says in another post, the numbers can be changed on the whims of the MTA at a moments notice.
We all know Bombardier has had problems with their order -- the Post had that story last year about the wiring being screwed up on the initial production orders, but if the MTA was to cancel the supplimental order and transfer it to Kawasaki, espeically with New York State being as heavily connected to Bombardier as it is, we would have heard something about it, and how this will mean a loss of manufaturing jobs upstate.
It may make more sense in the long run to let Kawasaki get the order, but unless their cars are in service for several months while Bombardier's continue flunking the 72 point test, I don't think there's the political will to shift the order around, especially in an election year.
question what type of film did you use what speed and did you use a flash ??
What would take longer: building new subway cars the right way, or building them the wrong way and having to fix their problems, which could possibly be a problem for safety of passangers (e.g. There were some bad welds in the M4s that could have caused a major accident but thankfully did not).
But don't forget the politics involved. Bombardier has more of a direct connection with jobs in New York State than Kawasaki does, so even if Kawasaki does build a better subway car, there would have to be some blatently obvious problems -- such as the Kawasakis going into service sometime this summer while the Bombardiers fail to pass the tests for several more months -- before there would be the political will to take the supplimental order away from Bombardier and sent it overseas.
Building it right the first time does make more sense, but politics and common sense aren't always traveling companions.
Another thing to think about - NYC is such a large system that it's purchasing has a major effect on the market. I think that the poobahs in MTA may think it would be a bad idea to throw all their business to one company (Kawasaki). They want to keep at least two companies healthy and active to keep the competition out there.
I've read that the large freight railroads tend to balance their orders between GE and EMD for this purpose.
Well, New York certainly kept St. Louis Car Co. humming for a time. If the Bombardier cars continue to have problems, the Bondo Squad will be busy for a while longer.
.............its because they are made out of styrofoam..!!!
If the cars are that bad, does the MTA have the right to cancel the order and get them off the property, or are we permanently stuck with them?
The MTA will probably let Bombardier build the 600+ cars the are suppose the build but they have pulled the option from them and handed it over to Kawasaki based on the fact that cars #7209 and #7210 were suppose to be Bombardier option cars but are now on Kawasaki's Yonkers property with Kawasaki Mfg plates on them.
R142 Boi 2K
i am responding to this thread not to any poster etc......
nice new shiny JUNK does not always mean ""the quality is built in before the name goes on ""
the older subway cars r 38 and older low v high v etc.... with time proff thru the test of time tested proven technologies !!
to build a new rail car ( just like these new junk automobiles ) why cant they just remake the best of the redbirds etc ??
study how the older cars lasted so long and leave well enough alone !! ........asking for too much ??
I understand where you are coming from. The 142's have a lot more equipment and technology than the redbirds. This means that there is more stuff on the new trains that could possibly go wrong/breakdown. HOWEVER, I believe that the TA knows this and that is why they are testing the hell out of them, beginning all the way back with the R110a.
I don't agree with your automobile analogy. I may be only 18, but I've read and heard stories about old cars. They were not safe whatsoever, people were being killed in 10 mph wrecks. todays cars are more reliable and safe than ever before. My car is an '85 BMW, it has 194,000 miles on it, it still runs perfectly, although it is finally starting to show it's age. Back before the 80's, it would be a miracle for a car to last 100,000 miles. Even crappy automolibe manufacturer Hyundai has a 10 year/100,000 warranty now. I'll give you this: older cars are a helluva lot easier to work on than newer ones. Except now, you don't really need to maintain new cars that much anymore.
Her's a saying I've heard many times: "They don't make 'em like they used to, thank God."
the older automobiles you could repair them in your back yard with a small box of standard american tools
also it depends on what era of and make and type of automobile you speak of...
of all the vehicles you praised which one can you repair and or fix yourself with simple hand tools ???\
when these new junk cars get older ( like the marta cars r110 r110bs and new subway cars )........
how well will they ""hold up without all this high-useless-tech crashing and falling apart and breaking down ??
remember how the brand new state of the art french made marta cars doors freezes shut everytime the
outside temp. goes close to freezing back in 1984 1988.... i understand that maybe that problem has been repaired ??
give me a good old automobile like the 327 small block chevrolet indestructable engine equipped vehilce
and almost any idiot could repair and keep it running !!!
Well, I don't know why I opened this, but anyway:
Few people are qualified or will even bother to try to repair a car by one's self. Cars are too expensive and complicated to risk being worked on by unskilled labor. The whole repair with a tool chest in one's driveway wouldn't happen either way. We no longer live in a society where people try to do things for themselves. Civilization cam into existence when people began to specialize in a particular field. As it progresses, specialization will become more profound.
I don't mean this post as anything negative against you and do not wish to start any fights or arguments. I just wanted to post this message.
Proof Positive. Older cars like the ones you're talking about are much less efficent, and a hell of a lot more polluting than anything built a mere 10 years ago. Oh, yeah, most didn't come with seatbelts as standard equipment!
-Hank
I wouldn't say it took a miracle for a pre-1980 auto to last 100,000 miles, just proper maintenance. My folks have owned six cars in 50 years, and four of them went over the century mark, including their present car. Both cars I've owned did so likewise, and my Jeep is now at 392,000+ and still rolling along with its original, untouched engine.
i agree with u. however Hyundai isn't a crappy company as it was in the 80's. it has gained its respect and their cars are better than most japanese econoboxes.
KMI- that's my point. hyundai's quality has improved a lot since the 80s, but so has the entire auto industry, so hyundai is still towards the bottom when compared to all the other cars.
Steve- okay, maybe i was generalizing a bit about how long older cars last, but it isn't that far from the truth. but wouldn't you agree that older cars were a lot less safer than they are now?
Salaam- like with your 327 chevy small block, the NYCT, MARTA, and other transit companies will have to properly maintain their trains in order to have a reliable fleet. the TA is trying to make the 142 as relible as possible by testing them thoroghly and familarizing themselves with all the components. remember, the mechainics working on these cars are skilled in working with complex equipment, have some faith in them.
.......who is leading who ?? is TA MTA NYC telling the r-142 s builders what to do how they want thier
subway cars to be quality built and or is .....BOMB-BAB-BARNER - bombbadiner etc..........
Leading the TA around like a dog on a leash ??
Who is in charge here ?? the experts or the new car salesmen gadgets .... instead of time tested proven quality ??
slick hip and not cute fkim flam scam whistles and bells............with the shiny new junkyard ""scrap styrofoam "
new cars salesmen promoting all of thier ""high tech"" goodies quanity not quality !!!................ ...
Did you see the crash results for the Kia Sephia and the Daewoo Leganza?
NEVER buy a car that in a 30MOH frontal barrier crash results in the doors coming OFF the car.
-Hank
In terms of safety, I would agree. Cars today are designed to telescope (is that the proper word?) in the event of a crash, thereby absorbing energy. Plus you've got seat belts and air bags. In contrast, if for example my father's '53 Pontiac (he sold it when we left Indiana) were to slam into a wall, it might sustain some chrome damage, but the energy would be transmitted to the passenger compartment. Its hood and fenders were not designed to telescope, plus there were no seat belts. Never mind the fact it was built like a BMT standard and rode like a tank (and always started no matter how cold it got).
Of course, if you have a '74 Eldorado or similar boat, you'd have 5000+ pounds of hulk surrounding you.
Accordian is more accurate. Telescope implies that it's going up and over (which is what an anti-climber does for a rail car)
-Hank
With all due respect to Rob from Atlanta - my '68 Impala with 307 V8 and Powerglide tranny went 174,000 before I sold it - original engine and all other main components in driveline- still in OK shape. And keep in mind - the Chevy 307 was not their best effort. I just took care of her and she went the distance.
The Dodge taxis I drove from '75 to '80 all went between 150 and 350K in New York City stop and go traffic before retirement. They came with Torqueflite 727 trannys and 225 CID slant 6 engines. Engines and tranny's rarely required replacement during the lifetime of the car.
And yes - some powertrains these days are better engineered. But given proper treatment - the older stuff was quite durable.
Now if you want to talk about fuel efficiency - there's no contest. Today's stuff wins hands down. Same thing for power per CC or CID. Today's stuff is better. But for tolerance in wear and tear - The older stuff with proper maintenance was really quite durable.
ok then, i'll give you that.
"torqueflite"- is that what they called their automatic transmission? i've heard some pretty wacky names for them in old cars, like "hydramatic"
You want new cars=safe? I'll let you talk to my brother, who happened to not die last Thursday because the 1991 Saturn he was riding in had seatbelts and side door beams. I've got pics of what's left of the car, too. Were it not for the fact that he was squeezed between the exhaust tunnel and the passenger side door, he'd have been able to walk away (which he did, after 10 hours in the hospital for tests). The car was hit broadside by a 1998 Cadillac traveling 60MPH in a 35 zone.
-Hank
With that mentality, we will never advance ourselves. I would bet the redbirds seemed very complex and new to lovers of the Lo-Vs they replaced, but they survived and did well.
advancing is when you do it with time tested proven technologies on what worked in the past thats what the
current redbird replacement builders types seem to be missing .. you improve with caution and moderation
not just a whole bunch of new useless company promoted whistles and dead door-bells added on accessories,.
and over high tech unproved and not time tested proven success.. !!
But Bombardier will have to make modifications to their cars, as needed to meet the TA's needs.
-Stef
But Bombardier will have to make modifications to their cars, as needed to meet the TA's expectations.
-Stef
Does Kawasaki have to rebuild them so they are 100% Kawasaki?
Those two cars are already 100% Kawasaki Cars! I was really referring to the numbers as they were designated for Bombardier cars.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Numbers are meaningless. They can be changed at any time, witness the original delivery of the R40.
Just because the numbers that were assigned to one set of cars is applied to another set, doesn't mean the order was moved from one company to another. The subway, and especially new equipment, is such a political football that if there were serious problems with the order that resulted in major changes midstream (such as a change of manufacturer) it would be a lead story on every news outlet in NY. Look at how they covered a Bombardier employee running a train off the end of a test track!
-Hank
Why DID they change the numbers on the R40's?
They weren't consecutive as delivered. Don't ask why - they had multiple orders and variants thereof going on at the same time: R40 Slant (non A/C), R40 Slant (A/C) and R40M. I believe it had something to do with the fact that the last 100 cars of the Slant R40 order were rebuilt with straight ends and A/C but don't quote me on that one.
wayne
The reordered numbers made the most sense based on how they were originally delivered -- 4150 to 4349 were the un-air conditioned Slant 40s (or the "Soot 40s" based on the areas around their ceiling fans), while 4350-4449 were the ACed Slant 40s and 4450-4549 were the ones with AC the MTA had modified, after the problems with the slanted ends became apparant.
Your posting leaves the impression that the last 100 were rebuilt. They were not. The MTA modified the contract for the last group to be delivered with a straight front before STLC started on the last batch. The side panels were already drilled for the NYCTA logo, and the holes were filled in to accept the MTA decals.
My thinking is that cars were delivered based on the electrical equipment. The NYCTA seems to order their rolling stock as 50% GE and 50% Westinghouse. As the R40 arrived on the property, the first two batches were GE's and the last batch (Air Conditioning) were Westinghouse. I could not remember if the a/c were TRANE or SAFETY ELECTRICAL air conditioning or the a/c were split 50-50.
Wow, an employee running a train off the test tracks? That's like dropping a baby on its head. Don't expect those cars to perform good later on in life.
Yeah: "How do you stop this....whooooops!! Oh, #@$%#!!!"
They'll perform fine, as it was written up as human error. There's no bumper on the end of the track, and just like when you back the car up to far and hit the garage door, this guy just didn't stop at the mark, and rolled off the track end.
-Hank
Wait, so, Bombardier gets their Primary Order, Kawasaki gets their Primary Order, their Option Order AND Bombardier's Option order? Wow! That's alot for Kawasaki. I just noticed that every time Kawasaki had an order, Bombardier also had the same order. The R62/R62A, R68 (Yes, ANF Industries got chewed up by Bombardier)/R68A and R142/R142A. All except the R143s. Kawasaki got all 212 cars.
You basically explained it yourself, LOL!
Yes Bombardier will do their primary order, Kawasaki will do their primary order, BUT Kawasaki now also does their primary, their option AND Bombardier's option order. Yes it's a lot for Kawasaki, BUT they are eating this up alive.
The reason why Kawasaki got the full order for the R143s is that Bombardier's Plattsburgh plant has shown to not produce quality cars. Thus the reason why NJT did not let Bombardier do the Comet V Commuter Cars, POOR QUALITY!
I'd rather have the cars done by Kawasaki anyways because they have shown they can produce a quality car better than Bombardier. Granted Bombardier banged out a quality R62A car but that was not built by the under Quality Controlled Plattsburgh plant.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I'm really confused by this thread.
Here at MIT today, I had a chance to talk to the Vice President/Material for MTA/NYC Transit (he was here for a conference on new technology for research directors). This is the gentleman who signs the contracts for all larger purchases, such as subway cars.
I asked him explicitly about the R142 option; he said that NO OPTION HAS YET BEEN TAKEN by MTA/NYCT; that won't be done until next year. He said that both Bombardier and Kawasaki will be considered for options AFTER the cars have been in revenue service, and it is much too early in the process to even speculate on the merits of one vendor over another.
On what basis is your information that conflicts with this?
Basis for my information is the hard copy photos that I have taken of option order cars with the option car number assigned for the Bombardier option YET Mfged by Kawasaki. ALSO in talking with Car Equipemt.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Then there must be a problem with the nubmering scheme, since the options have NOT been awarded, and won't be until next year (if they are in fact awarded - that's why they're called "options"). The cars now being delivered (and constructed) are part of the original base contracts.
Must be, we'll see when the order is completed!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Pray tell, who in Car Equipment have you been talking to? I had lunch with a very senior manager on 5/5/00 and as of that date, your information seems to be - shall we say, premature.
Sorry one thing I do respect is my sources wish not to give out names unless I've been given permission, I honor that because I don't want to loose my source by giving out names!
However, I did also hear that people in the TA can not be that reliable either as information changes almost on a daily basis.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Yup, rumors in the TA do tend to become lore. However, this information doesn't change daily. Once the contract is signed - then it becomes fact. Until then it's meaningless prattle. Once again, your source is feeding you nonsense.
Not a Problem! I wouldn't say "Once Again" because there were times my source has passed me info and I was deemed wrong and a month or so later, it came to pass!
This happened as a matter of fact today on a bus issue, when I stated back in mid-1999 that there was a 3rd SI bus depot coming and everyone said, "yeah right" "your lying" "BS" and now a article came about about it in the local SI paper.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
It's not 'coming' yet. Unless the bond issue passes in November, there's no chance at all. In fact, it's been fully funded 3 times in the last 3 years, only to never see a shovel turn. 15 years, 3 capital plans. Not many people on SI hold out hope for it this time. When they see a shovel in the dirt, that's when it happens. It took them 10 years to START building a school that had been funded 6 years previously (PS56) but just 2 years to fund and start contruction on PS6. Part of the reason for this is that they're using the exact same plans for PS6 that they used for PS56, and the schools will be identical.
-Hank
Thats how Kawasaki has been smart businesswise. When over 800 R62a cars had to be pulled from service for coupler clearances somewhat delaying the scrapping of run down R21s, Kawasaki had reliable cars in service with few recalls, if any I heard of. They learned from the TAs past not to do major business with them. Grumman, ACF, BUDD, SueMeTomo CAN NOT do business with the MTA. BOMBadier had major problems delivering the Comet IV coaches to NJT, the cab cars and previously subway equipment. Hell, they changed ALL the OEM on the R62a cars by now, with Wabco valves, ECAM controllers and the thousands of mods over the last ten years of service. They are reliable today because the TA spent the money to make them right. Richard Ronan's goon squad from new car engineering designed the R46, the likes of P-Wire, air bag trucks and the like. It appears they haven't retired yet.
Two things:
1. Delivery was stopped on the (Kawasaki) R-62s several times for various reasons.
2. The Chairman of MTA at the time the R-46s were being designed was WILLIAM Ronan (yeah, I know...minor nitpick ).
David
Remember the "Ronan Stinks" editorial? That was it, sum and substance.
Ok, since this question has not been asked for quite awhile, I'll take my chances: It looks like Bombardier's cars may have some problems, but are the Kawasaki cars very close to beginning their 30-day revenue test, or do we still have a few months? -Nick
The Kawasaki and Bombardier sets began their tests no more than a few days apart. Neither is ready for the in-service test, and neither will be for some time.
David
Actually the cars are now scheduled to begin the 30-day revenue test in July or August! You can figure by then that at least 10 more train sets will be built and delivered.
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
For the next NY Division ERA meeting, INVATATIONS ARE REQUIRED.
Check upcoming events for info on how to get an invatation.
-Mark
Please indicate where it says that invitations are required. My copy of the meeting notice doesn't say that.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Ah...I see. An invitation is NOT, repeat, NOT, required. The information given in the nycsubway.org Upcoming Events section is incorrect. Just show up. First-timers get in free, other non-member/subscribers pay $5.
Thanks go to Mark W. for pointing this error out.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Dave,
Larry Furlong called me and asked for this to be posted saying it was by his invatation ONLY. I'll forward you the E-mail.
> The information given in the nycsubway.org Upcoming Events
> section is incorrect. Thanks go to Mark W. for pointing
> this error out.
Hey it's not like this is my fault. I just cut and pasted Mark W.'s email into the upcoming events section in the first place.
-Dave
Hello folks,
We had a thread a couple of weeks ago regarding the upcoming 5th year anniversary of the opening of this site. I've been hashing out some ideas and need some input from you all.
I have four sorts of events in mind for the weekend.
An organized, coordinated charter trip and/or behind the scenes tour of some facility. For instance, the Newark City Subway, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, Coney Island Shops, PATH, SIRT, something like that. I know that some of these agencies are generally amenable to taking small groups. What I don't have are contact numbers, cost information, etc. If anyone's familiar with this please let me know.
An evening gathering, with food and some transit presentations. I have a local hotel in mind that is convenient to the PATH and HBLR and with parking for this but that's just my initial idea. The presentations would be by SubTalkers, myself and others, and would be slide-based (or video if the site has equipment). I can supply a slide projector. The food I would expect to be just a bunch of pizzas and soda. Nothing fancy. I have a lead on a Guest Presenter as well, but I am open to other leads for the "keynote" portion of the evening.
A "SubTalk" field trip like others we've held. Perhaps this could be in between the organized trip in the morning and the evening's "banquet".
A full day's trip to (somewhere). Lets have part of the anniversary celebration somewhere outside of NYC. My first idea would be to take the train down to Philadelphia and spend the day doing a SubTalk fieldtrip of the rail lines down there. Might even be able to charter a PCC.
My main questions to you all are:
Who all would go? The anniversary is August 5, 2000 (Saturday), and perhaps Sunday if there's enough interest. 20 people seems like a good minimum number for an organized trip.
Would you be willing to pay for the events in question in order to offset costs (whatever fees are charged for a charter/tour, renting some space for an evening, and food). The ERA typically charges around $25 for a coordinated outing/fan trip. I don't know what it would cost to do these things yet and I'm certainly not looking to make a profit but any costs would absolutely have to be offset by those participating.
Does anyone have any leads on organizing tours at any of the facilities I mentioned?
Ideas and suggestions are welcome. We can't wait to the last minute on this especially if we want to organize a real fan trip/tour. You all are the ones who made this site what it is so I hope you'll offer your input... and join in the anniversary celebrations whatever they might turn out to be.
Thanks,
Dave
Coney Island shops? Just tell me when. It would have to be limited to appx. 30 people.
As part of the anniversary gala, I can arrange a guided tour of Coney Island yard given by Mike Hanna. Before I do this, I need to know how many are interested in going if I set it up? Please mail me if interested.
-Mark W.
Count me in!
Depending on the date, I'll come.
Coney Island Yard??? COUNT ME IN!
Can you get Mike to let us visit the wrecks?
wayne
Good God, if you could make it on either August 16-18 I could be part of it. That would be great for me. When is it scheduled?
The anniversary events are scheduled for the weekend of August 5-6 2000. You can read the whole thread about the plans by clicking on the Gala link at the top of the Subtalk Index page. I suspect the Coney Island tour would be on Saturday but I haven't heard from Mark which day is available.
-Dave
Count me in... A tour of Coney Island would be well worth the trip down from Boston.
-- David
Chicago, IL (T-minus two weeks and counting)
05/14/2000
I'm interested too
Bill Newkirk
I'll be interested in the shop tour and to see the "museum row" of subay cars. But are we still going to Philly?
I did a Coney Island Yard tour with the ERA last year ... it was great, but will come again if Mike is going to let us get closer to his fleet ... I would also be very interested to see the progress on the Standards that you've been working on.
Mr t__:^)
Dave, I think I prefer the Coney Island yard better. IDK if I can make it that weekend as of yet though. I do have another option for you though. Why don't you write into Transit Transit News Magazine and say that you have your 5th Anniversary of your site? It's transit-related. Maybe they'll do something for you on either the July or August show. Hey it's worth a shot.
R36Gary
I'll definately try to make this.
-- Dave
Is anything planned on August 16-19? I would love to take part in something and I will be in the city on those days on a baseball tour.
Mark W ...
I'm interested.
--Mark F
Count me in!
I plan on being in the city for this event and the others planned for this weekend.
Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I will be there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be there with bells on!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I plan on coming based on my schedule. Count me in
I will certainly try to be there.
If it happens on aSaturday, I'll be there.
COUNT ME IN!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I'll do my best to join in. I like the idea of a hotel-based presentation night, preceded or followed by a Field Trip.
I'll also bring good weather, and some press coverage (me!).
05/10/2000
Dave,
I'm definitely interested. My birthday is Friday, August 4th ! That's a double celebration for me.
Bill Newkirk
Hey, count me in!!
I think that a tour of coney Island yard would be great!
being that is on a weekend, it might be possible for me to go. i'd have a to make a few arrangements. count me in as a 1/2.
We'll go to any Sunday events or Saturday night events.
I prefer option #2. I'll make the time (MUST be on a weekend for me to attend) and I'll definatly pay ...
May I suggest a field trip to the Baltimore Powerhouse, which is now a Barnes & Noble superstore (with walk-through smokestacks), Hard Rock Cafe, and ESPN Zone?
Just an idea. The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is visiting this landmark in June so that we may model the H&MRR Powerhouse's adapative resuse upon it...
If you have a slide show, I'd like to contribute slides of the H&MRR Powerhouse (current and historical)...
If you decide to do as suggested, by all means include the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. We are open (in August) Saturdays and Sundays noon to 5PM. See our web site @ www.baltimoremd.com\streetcar.
Baltimore is a fine transit city but IMHO it's a little far for a day trip. The cost involved is probably higher than most would like to spend for a day- somewhere around $75-100 RT on Amtrak. A bus could be chartered but I don't want to get too far into that business... Philadelphia on the other hand can be done for $20 on NJT/Septa.
Or...
How about a tour of that magnificent Long Island Powerhouse sitting on the East River, the one designed by McKim, Mead & White?
john... do you mean the big powerhouse at 59th street on the west side?.... i think that was the original irt powerhouse, which was indeed built by mckim, mead and white... you could fit a couple of the h&m powerhouses in there... if i am not mistaken that plant is now offline altogether...
i went on a tour of that building several years ago...i think it was sponsored by the era... it was then being run by con edison... it's funny i don't really remember much of that visit...
i am really sorry that you were subjected to the 3rd degree about the bergen arches by one of our budding prosecution lawyers...
It's still in use. As a weather station - There are all sorts of weather stuff up on the tall stack. (I see I guy up there every two months from my school window) Also the last stack (closest to the water) is still churning out smoke, so it still could be being used.
BTW, any one know where to second stack came down? There's only three now and it was built with four.
Oo, Oo! Go to Philly, go to Philly! That way I will be able to attend. You could all ride the wonderful NJT commuter train to Trenton and change to SEPTA for the ride into town. From there every possible transit oppurtunity awaits. From Amtrak and SPETA/NJT commuter rail, to trollies and Route 100 whatevers. There's the new M4 or the older stuff on the BSL. Finally, for under a buck you can ride out and back on PATCO. Most of you already live in New York, try going some place new.
count me in too. i am game for almost anything
If it's in Philly, I'll will be there. I live 30 miles west of center city in Exton. It would be great to meet all the 'subtalkers".
Chuck Greene
Sweet, right on the R5. Hey can you tell me what's left of the Paoli yard and there they fit the new yard at Malvern.
Mike:
I haven't been by there (Paoli) lately, but I think everything is stored some-where else. Could be at Malvern?
Chuck Greene
I'll be there ... option #2 looks the best for me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would definately be interested in one or a combination of your above options.
Everything sounds great, unfortunately I have a wedding to go to in Florida :-( But here's an idea.
A Time Capsule. Placing items ( i.e. Tokens, metrocards, maps, etc ) into the capsule and storing it for the 25th anniversary. Where the capsule would be stored and what it would look like is something to discuss. Keep in mind that this capsule would have to be airtight to preserve the items.
Paul
Dave, Count me in too ... I like the Philly trip idea. We'ld get a nice rail trip & lots of time to get acquainted with each other. Peggy Darlington and Mark W. (seperately) were talking about such a trip so they may have some detail to jump start this.
Although, I'll join most anything that seems to be the best idea.
Mr t__:^)
I'll go if I can get the day off - AVAs on a weekend in the summer are kind of hard.
Count me in... Just about any of the aforementioned ideas would be worth a trip down from Boston.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It all sounds good to me. A trip to Philly would be great, as it's close enough to NYC to make it convenient, and far enough to make it feel like a whole 'nother metropolitan area. Philadelphia has enough variety of mass transit modes to make it worthwhile.
Maybe one day of the weekend for New York stuff and the other for Philly. I'd be willing to pay for both.
>>Maybe one day of the weekend for New York stuff and the other for Philly. I'd be willing to pay for both.<<
I'm game for a two-day affair as Howard suggested. Since I would be flying in from the Midwest, having multiple events over two days makes it more cost effective for me. And knowing this far in advance allows finding cheaper airfare and hotel.
I'm willing to chip in for the cost of food, charters, costs of tours, etc.
Sounds excellent.
I'll probably have to pass on it though, as I may be Italy that week on vacation. (And if the boss lets me, maybe even some railfanning there, too).
Assuming I could go, yes, I'd be willing to pay for it. And yes, I'd willing to present on something, too.
Idea on guest speaker: Maybe ask Joe Raskin to present something on the IND Second System? He seems like a pretty amenable guy and I know he knows his stuff on that. And lotsa people on the board are interested in that, too.
--Mark
Option 2 with/or without a fieldtrip preceeding it would be best for me. If there is interest, I could arrange a slide presentation on modeling the NYCTA (you can see some of my work on www.monmouth.com/~patv). Also, I might be able to convince Joe Frank to attend and present, or I could present on his behalf, a slide show on the Third Avenue El in the Bronx. Mr. Frank is a noted transit historian/modeler and his collection of slides of the Third Avenue El in the Bronx rivals or even surpasses the work of Lothar Steltor ("By the El") in Manhattan. Not only technically complete, but artistically photographed. Also, Mr. Frank has produced a video with synchronized prototype sound of his amazing 10' X 60' O Scale Elevated model railroad that has to be seen to be believed! I know that these would be of interest to Subtalkers, and would make for a very entertaining presentation.
I had the opportunity to run Mr. Frank's layout a number of years ago. Awesome!
--Mark
If option 2 is selected -- I'll definitely go. Unfortunately a knee injury won't let me go on fan trips or walking tours.
I would enjoy going to Philly. They have SEPTA, Amtrak, PATCO, PCCs and light rail. How much time are we going to spend there if we go? and what systems will we have a change to ride? I would love to see the transit. Count me in wherever we go (almost).
-Daniel
Philly's PCC's are used only for charters.
There aren't any PCC's in active service in Philly. We might have the opportunity to charter one, I'm looking into that.
I would expect we head down in the morning, meeting up for instance at Newark Penn Station in order to arrive in Philly around 11am, and head back around 5pm or thereabouts. The 101-102 Media-Sharon Hill lines are really interesting so I would definitely have those on the list. PATCO is interesting if you've never ridden it, nice fast runs in Jersey but nothing really remarkable. I personally would concentrate on the "trolley" based lines but we could break into groups depending on interest. Plus there's the aforementioned chance of a charter. I'll let everyone know the details when I find them out.
-Dave
Philly is ideal for Transit Trips. The best is the R6 out to Norristown, then the Rt. 100 to 69th. Then the Rt. 102 to Cliffton-Adden, then the R3 back to Philly. If time dosen't allow you can subdivide the trip by taking the MFL to 69th.
With PATCO you can go out to Lindenwald and then ride NJT back into 30th St. It gives you a ride over the Delair Bridge, past Frankford Jct., North Philly and ZOO.
If you don't want to spend the money just use PATCO for a ride over the Bridge. It only costs like 80 cents.
YES!YES!YES! For option #2, maybe you can make a deal with the hotel,as far as rooms for some of the out-of-towners are concerned, so a COUPLE of brewskies can be enjoyed by all! Maybe combine options 1&2, as I guess that Mark W can make the CI arrangements.....
Suggested itinerary:
10:00 am- Formal Tour of CI Shops [probably a couple of hours..right?]
12:00N- Lunch at Nathans Famous
1:00 pm- general ride around the system, ending up at Chambers/WTC/Courtlandt..then on to the PATH to Exchange to ride HBLR and whatever else we wanted to....
EVENING: Banquet/Meeting....
Sounds great, but I work the "E" on Saturdays, and the "R" on Sundays.
It is very hard to get an AVA on weekends during the summer. Hope you all have a great time. If you have a tour of Coney Island Yard, look for the Redbirds near the overhall shops that are used for "School Cars". This is where all Conductors and Train Operators receive training- in addition to field training.
Although I don't have leads on organizing, I would be willing to join in and donate time/effort etc.
Wayne
sounds like a very good response. I'll make every effort to keep my calander cleared for it.
Steam town and its new trolley museum would be a nice alternative.
Steamtown could be left for a field trip later down the time line.
Philie also has the U.S. Mint. I,ll try to find out if its open on Saturdays.
avid
[Steam town and its new trolley museum would be a nice alternative.]
As many of you know I was there last summer & it is a very large place with tons & tons of stuff ... the "Lackawanna Station" hotel is also a great place to spend the night, BUT the trolley line isn't running yet, and it would be hard for a lot of SubTalkers who don't have cars to get their. Philly seems to much more doable, if we're going to make it a Field Trip vs. a dinner & speaker thing ... either is fine with me.
BTW, I'm still working out some detail on the Boston/Seashore Field Trip which probally will be July 15 & 16. Looks like we'll go to Seashore Saturday (will see more equip. come out on Sat.), then Boston Sunday.
Question: Todd, et., al., how much would it cost to park under Boston Common for a good part of the day ?
Mr t__:^)
According to a Boston Common garage site I found it looks like it's $7 a day on weekends. I can't confirm that because I've never parked there.
An alternative is to park right across the river near MIT and take the Red Line into Boston.
I'll be at Seashore tomorrow, and I'll alert the troops to the probably SubTalk FieldTrip visit date of Saturday, July 15!
Keep me updated - if I've got the time and money (I'm seriously looking at a second bike for me - a pretty hot '88 Harley Sportster....), I'd probbably go.
I wish I could be there for any event you plan.
However, Jacksonville, Florida is little beyond the last stop south, Tottenville, that you can get to on the NYCT.
Many years ago, I would take the 3rd Ave El from 204th St in the Bronx to 149th St, transfer to a South Ferry train, take the ferry to Staten Island. Then the SIRT to Tottenville, then another ferry to Perth Amboy, New Jersey. Then I would hitchhike to Keensburg where we had a summer place.
I had a neighbor in the Bronx then who had a place in Long Branch, and I was able to caatch a few runs behind a PRR (A1A) Sharknose on that trip when I could afford the fare from Penn station, and change Locomotives at Perth Amboy.
So maybe, the Perth Amboy engine house could be the destination of your trip without getting to far out from NYC, and traveling, using at least two or three different lines to get there and back to NYC.
Thank you for your site,
Mellow One
Dave,
I will definitely try to be at this event. usually i have conflicts on saturdays, but I'll see what I can do. Perhaps something on Sunday (like a field trip) would be a good idea. -Nick
I could do that. But keep in mind the Republicans will be in town this summer. I don't know if around 8/5 but close enough as I recall.
I can't come. I have a convention that weekend, I think
Mr Pirmann, I would like to thank you personally for this site and for putting my pics up. I've taken more redbirds and hopefully be bringing you more to put up in the near future. This is the only site that I know of that has anything affiliated with Transit across the United States. Ever consider going overseas and getting their transit equipment? I always hear how magnificent the Russian Subways are. They're so clean that you can eat off of the floor. Just a suggestion. Again, thank you very much for nycsubway.org.
R36Gary
Why not take a look at
http://www.nycsubway.org/world.html
I've personally been to London, Paris, Amsterdam, (those three are covered pretty extensively) and a little bit in Brussels. We also have overseas features from Bangkok and Singapore thanks to world travellers Mark Feinman and Todd Glickman.
I'd love to cover the Moscow Metro some day but without some assistance from a Russian-speaker I probably wouldn't try. I have heard that they are not too amenable to a lot of subway photo-taking. The official Moscow Metro web site (http://metro.ru/) has a lot of good photos if you look for them (the site is entirely in Russian/Cyrillic character set). I downloaded most of them if anyone wants a zip file.
Later this year I should have a feature of preserved railways of England and Wales to add; and next year I'd like to visit Switzerland's Jungfrau Railway, and some of the other tramway systems around Europe. Anyone up for a real field trip?
-Dave
[...and next year I'd like to visit Switzerland's Jungfrau Railway, and some of the other tramway systems around Europe. Anyone up for a real field trip?]
I would be game for a "major session" field trip! You once spoke of doing a simular thing this Fall (Oct-Nov 2000). Is that still on?
No, can't do it this year, my father decided he wanted to tour preserved steam railroads of England & Wales so I'm going with him, using up the last of the available vacation time. Tough break huh? :-) At least there will be a couple of electric things to visit along the way.
The next trip would have to be in the springtime of 2001 (or summer for the Jungfrau).
Do we have an "expert" on board about tram systems of eastern Europe? That would be interesting. Lots of old equipment still around there. A couple of days touring the *-Bahns of Berlin would be interesting as well... Maybe a Berlin-Vienna-Prague combination tour. So much to see so little time!
[Do we have an "expert" on board about tram systems of eastern Europe? That would be interesting. Lots of old equipment still around there]
I'm from EE. But the tram's over there are pretty much the same built in Czechoslovakia mostly 2 visually different types with slight variations. Exeption was East Germany where you might find something more interesting.
Here's a link with few pictures.
Arti
Thanks for the pics!
Another thing that might be interesting is to track down cities that have PCC-based cars (Brussels, Den Haag, etc), probably many others. Not sure if Amsterdam's older cars are PCC based or not...
-dave
Link to Amsterdam tram pictures.
Link to Brussels tram pictures.
Ati
any october plans sir ??
ANY OCTOBER PLANS SIR ???
David--I think that the Coney Island tour is worth the price of an airplane ticket from San Francisco. That's right I would fly into New York just for that. If you are thinking of doing something with Coney Island, why not have the "gala" reception at Nathan's. They have rooms for kiddie parties, why not use those rooms for Subtalker parties? Another suggestion would be some place like Lundy's in Sheepshead Bay.
If you wanted to have such a celebration in Manhattan my suggestion would be the Pizza Box on Bleeker Street. I don't think they have a backroom, but they do have a back porch which overlooks the backyards of several Village Brownstones. Perhaps slides could be viewed on this patio area once it gets dark, about 8:15pm or so.
Another idea would be to have the gala in a roped off area of the West 4th Street Station Mezzanine. Pizza Box is only a couple of blocks away and they could cater it. Perhaps there is a room which could be rented for this purpose on the NYU Campus.
I am already earmarking overtime money to finance this trip.
George Devine Jr.
San Francisco, CA
Is anyone interested in coming to Philly on that Saturday? I haven't
seen anything posted on that lately.
Chuck Greene
Oops, I think it was a Coney Island Shops tour on Saturday, and Philly
on "Sunday". Anything doing on these 2 items?
Chuck Greene
Coney is almost a go!
Is there any "safe" automobile parking at Coney Island. I'd like to drive up from Philadelphia and park my "small" car right at Coney
Island. Would be the best route there off the Jersey Turnpike?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
NJ Turnpike to Exit 13 Goethals Bridge into I-278 Staten Island Expressway towards the Verrazano Bridge ...
-OR-
NJ Turnpike to Exit 10 (I-287/440) to 440 across Outerbridge Crossing (I guess Outerbridge Bridge sounds redundant redundant) to West Shore Expwy NORTH (still 440) to Staten Island Expressway towards the Verrazano Bridge ...
Then cross the Verrazano Bridge, pick up Belt Pkwy east (exit is from left lane after crossing the bridge) to Ocean Pkwy NORTH (exit 8N, I think). Take Ocean Pkwy 3 blocks NORTH to Ave X, turn left onto Ave X. Take Ave X to McDonald Ave with the Culver Line appearing overhead.
I've parked in the vicinity of Ave X near the CI yard (I think it was along West 1st or West 2nd Sts) and never had a problem.
--Mark
Thanks for the directions, Mark!
See you there , I hope.
Chuck Greene
I have been reading the posts and critiques about HBLR. Like many of you, I too visited the line on its opening day and was impressed with its newness and modernity, as well as its seeming practicality. Since I don't live along the line and don't use it for my commute, what I want to know is:
How many people are riding each workday? Are the cars crowded during rush hours? Are the "real" commuters satisfied? Has the line met initial ridership projections? Etc., etc.
Let's hear from someone who actually uses the line every day, eh?
As part of my commute to work I have to take the HBLR from Exchange Place to Garfield Avenue.
Yes, at rush hour the cars are packed pretty tight. And in talk to officials the the projections were under estimated and they will begin running two car trains very soon.
Also, everyone seems to be pretty content with the service, I've yet to hear anyone complain about the service when I ride it, I ride it at 8:15am and then again at 6pm.
The cars also seem to be holding up fine to the heavy rush loads that ride. but after about 8pm the cars look like moving ghost towns as I had to stay at work overtime and ride the train at that time!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Good to hear!
This is the type of first-hand account that our legislators, from the Feds to local, need to hear:
"projections were under estimated," and
"everyone seems to be pretty content with the service," and
"I've yet to hear anyone complain," and
"cars also seem to be holding up fine to the heavy rush loads," and
"I had to stay at work overtime and ride the train at that time."
Take that, anti-transit lobby!
Anti-Transit lobby? Who are they?
Highway contractors.
The fact that the line currently ends at Exchange Place may limit its appeal to people who work in midtown. After all, at Exchange, you can only take PATH directly to the Trade Center; to get to midtown requires a backtrack to Grove or Pavonia.
A co-worker of mine lives in Bayonne and still prefers to take the bus to Grove Street for direct PATH access to Midtown. (I work in Long Island City, so it's much more convenient to connect from PATH to subway at Herald Square than at the Trade Center.)
Once the line is extended north to Hoboken, its appeal to people who live in Jersey City and Bayonne, and work in Midtown, may increase considerably.
Actually, those people may be helped even before it gets to Hoboken. The extension to Newport Centre (read: Pavonia-Newport PATH station) is to open later this year.
Once you get to Pavonia-Newport, you can go in any direction.
BTW: remember that, as little as 10-15 years ago, the Pavonia-Newport station (then known as Pavonia Street) was actually CLOSED at night and on weekends? Mass transit was on its way out, supposedly.
My, how times change...
Michael
The area occupied by the Newport Mall was heavily industrial before it was built, so there was little need for weekend service. The Mall has become a huge success judging by all the people riding PATH out to it from Manhattan on the weekends. It also may be why there is now direct weekend service from WTC to Hoboken.
It looks like extreme coastal Jersey City may be the next Hoboken judging from all the construction going on along the light rail.
Not because transit was on the way out, but because Newport (the station was called Pavonia AVENUE) was a derelict old industrial area, there wasn't much need for off-peak service. Eventually, all the industry came down in favor of the commercial/residential/hotel development that has completely changed the area. Somebody who last saw Newport (originally an independent town founded by Hamilton) 20, maybe even 15 years ago would be shocked.
Heh, I remember riding through Pavonia at night one time 15 yrs ago when our family had been in NYC to visit the stock exchange. I was about 8. We came through the empty, dimly lit station and I asked my dad if ghosts lived there.
They did a nice job of fixing up Pavonia. My first trip through there was on a Saturday when it was closed (Dec. 27, 1969) - it was very creepy looking. The green/brown wall tile helps a lot. So do the new lights and the flocked stuff on the ceiling (forget what the correct name for it is). And the artwork in the exitway's nice too. The new station entracne building is spectacular.
They still have the "E"s on the pillarheads, which, of course, stands for the station's former name: "ERIE". They could have sanded, chiseled and puttied them into "P"'s of course, but wisely chose not to do so.
Wayne
How bout that odd dripping all throughout the station! Odd substance forming lump on track, dripping onto aa handrail, and forget the West end of the platform (Very west end). Dome of the pillars are covered in this unknown substance, but about a year ago I had the misfortune of getting hit in the head with it. It definitely isn't water.
It's water all right, but mixed in with groundwater leachates, forming a sort of mineral soup (though that's in an industrial area - heaven knows wot's in the ground! :o>) . We have this dripping all round the NYCT system. It forms stalactites from the ceiling and stalagmites on the floors.
wayne
I used it to commute once, coming in from Brooklyn (I'm one crazy person). The whole trip costed $16.60, although I filled up on cheap NJ gas (although the gas wasn't as cheap as usual NJ gas).
IRT 240 street yard cars have a red label below their number plates
IRT 239 street yards have a green stripe beneath their number plates
IRT Westchester Yard----Yellow Stripes
IRT Jerome Yard--Orange stripe beneath number plates
IRT 148 st Yard have a Blue Stripe beneath their number plates
IRT Livonia Yard have a Blue Stripe beneath their number plates
IRT E180 and Unionport Yards---a Black Stripe
IRT Corona Yard--a Purple Stripe beneath their number plates
There are three corrections.
Since 1995, the cars between E180 Street Yard and 239 Street Yard have been swapped. That is,
(1) E180 and Unionpoint Yards-- Green Stripe
(2) 239 Street Yard-- Black Stripe
As for Corona Yard, there are both black and yellow stripes and each stripe has a purple diamond on it.
Chaohwa
Thank you ,I will
try to notify Peter of these any any other corrections
in the Book
9300's and 9400's have the black strip and 9500's through 9700's have the yellow strip.
Last week I attended a Genetics Conference at Rosemont College near Philadelphia, in which new discoveries in that field were discussed. It was conducted by Sam Rhine (note: website may not be working) . If he ever comes to your area, I reccomend that you go to hear him.
You may be wondering what this has to do with transit. But let me tell you, as a transit fan, I am used to projects with studies that go on for years and never produce tangible results. What took 4 years in 1900-1904 may take 30 years now. However, when I attended the conference and heard about the fact that the Human Genome Project was "ahead of schedule and under-budget," I was blown away. Here I was thinking progress took years of studies, and millions of dollars just to use rail already in place (not to mention billions for a block of tunneling) something like this seemed like a dream. The human genome project was appropriated $3 billion, which is really not that much considering its magnitude. The Schuylkill Valley Metro, which will only affect a few people, wants half that. Also, it seems as if genetics makes more progress in a month than transit made in the last 10 years.
Its a truly amazing field, and will divert your attention from the nothing of Second Avenue.
I saw AEM7AC 924 at Union Station, Washington, D.C. Because of tight security in Union Station, I only watched it from the parking garage.
AEM7AC 924 is the third AEM7 with AC traction. 916 and 918 are the first and second AEM7 receiving AC traction.
I also saw an Acela Express trainset at Union Station. I am still wondering when Acela Express begins revenue service. I don't have any confidence in Bombardier products.
Chaohwa
Are the AEM&ACs any quieter than the old AEM-7s?
I haven't seen them on the road running yet. So I am not able to answer it now. Once I caught an AEM7AC on the road, I will tell you right away.
Chaohwa
Just by chance, I found a telephone listing for the Brooklyn
Historic Railway Society in a phone book from the mid-90's. Does the group still exist? What is (was) its function?
David
Thanks to all who helped with my questions about the cars
on the Franklin Shuttle.
As many, if not most, of you probably already know, the #4 train is terminating at Atlantic Avenue weekday afternoons. However, the side destination signs (as well as the front destination signs on the red trains) say the trains are going to Utica Avenue. Why weren't they changed? Someone on a #3 train at Nevins Street might see a #4 train, get on it thinking they will be going express to Utica Avenue, and have to get off at Atlantic Avenue while the #3 train rolls away before they can catch it. If no #3 train comes by for a long time, which often happens at off-peak hours, it will take a lot longer for that person to get home. Why can't transit workers just change the destination signs to Atlantic Avenue so passengers are not misled like this?
Because this only for a GO middays. 10am~3pm. Plus the 4 run too frequent for crews to change all the signs. The front sign on the Redbirds should be changed though......
4Train#9279Mike
From Dennis:
______________________________________________________________________
Dear Lyle:
Maybe, the NYCTA should get smart and run #4 trains to Utica Avenue,
running
express from Atlantic Avenue to Utica, on mid-day weekdays instead of
terminate them
at Atlantic Avenue.
______________________________________________________________________
And I replied:
You mean like they normally do? I'm sure they would if they could.
As many, if not most, of you probably already know, the #4 train is terminating at Atlantic Avenue weekday afternoons. However, the side destination signs (as well as the front destination signs on the red trains) say the trains are going to Utica Avenue. Why weren't they changed? Someone on a #3 train at Nevins Street might see a #4 train, get on it thinking they will be going express to Utica Avenue, and have to get off at Atlantic Avenue while the #3 train rolls away before they can catch it. If no #3 train comes by for a long time, which often happens at off-peak hours, it will take a lot longer for that person to get home. Why can't transit workers just change the destination signs to Atlantic Avenue so passengers are not misled like this?
They'd have to change them back when the PM rush hour begins.
two things 1-read the red/white signs postd listing service changes
2-Listen to COnductor announcements
Only railfans do that.
Easier said than done, it seems.
I notice on the subway maps that the #4 train goes all the way to New Lots Avenue at night. Why is that? Can't the #3 train handle the sparse traffic that is on that line at night?
The 3 doesn't run at night.
Sorry about posting the same message twice. I had trouble connecting to SubTalk, and I didn't think my message got posted at all.
It doesn't make a difference! When I work the 4, I ALWAYS change the side signs to read Atlantic Ave: unfortunately, no one ever reads the damn things. I dump the train at Atlantic, get out of the cab and have people asking what's happening. I inform them that its the last stop, just like the CR had been saying, and show them the signs. They tell me that I must have just changed them, because they didn't say that before. I also sign my 3 trains to Utica and have the same thing happen.
I saw a double decker train on the LIRR heading east at Mineola at around 4:58pm. I did not hear any noise from the diesel engine, and the train stopped quickly, unlike a diesel.
Was it a dual mode operating from 3rd rail power? I thought they did the switch by the East river tubes.
That's a DM. They run from third rail quite a lot in electric territory. It's quieter, it's also a bit faster.
And it's a lot cooler too :)
I congratulate the LIRR for the current practice of sometimes running the 500's on third rail power far from the East River Tunnel. If the various owners of FL-9's had used third rail for as many miles as possible, there might be less diesel soot clogging lungs in The Bronx and Upper Manhattan. Some weekday nights I am entering Garden City High School when a LIRR 400 gets a clear signal: the cloud of diesel soot rises over the train, not as bad as an Alco, but bad and unhealthy. Pollution from power plants, diesels, trucks, and cars needs to be reduced.
There is no set rule where to switch from 3rd rail to diesel that I've heard but my source is not operating DM's.
I'm trying to find out since the DM's are double ended is one engine just providing Hotel Power like the Power Packs did or are they both providig Traction and Hotel Power. Same question no matter if it is 3rd rail or diesel.
Both engines are supplying traction and hotel power. One for the each half of the train.
Th DM's are supposed to switch over to third rail as soon as they are in electric territory.
-- Kirk
Interesting - GE has proposed building a dual mode caternary/diesel locomotive. But in electric mode, it would not have sufficient cooling capacity (for the transformer) to operate in this mode for long periods of time (under significant load, I presume). I guess the transformers need to be bigger when you're coming down from 10-25 kV.
DVARP has been making tons of noise that Septa should be getting their hands on some of these to serve Reading, Quakertown, Newtown, etc.
05/10/2000
Yes John! That was a dual mode operating in electric mode. If it were in diesel mode that obvious deep rumble rattling you teeth, cups, saucers and plates for blocks would be omnipresent !!
Bill Newkirk
And the car alarms! At Mineola at least one always goes off!
Yeah, I love setting them off while riding my Harley!!!
You can now visit the home of SubTalk Live: SubTalk, without the wait (I still think the one with the discriminating Subtalker is better) for schedules, logs, access information, sports scores and weather (just kidding about those last two).
Note: I will most likely be late for today's chat. If you find me there at 8, I will most likely be AFK, sitting there exclusively for the purpose of logging (in that case, I would be doing that from 11 in the morning or so).
I suggest people take the IRC client route to chatting.
It's 7:16 and I'm already home, so I won't be late for the chat.
P.S. Is this board programmed to automatically strip JavaScript coding?
Please come to the chat to avoid a SubTalker loosing money. If my friend can NOT convice us that railfanning is stupid and "gay" (walking and talking dictionaries, I am quoting my friend and I have gay in quotations), she's going to be paying me some money. I need your help. Thanks, in advance.
SHE IS NO FRIEND, Insulting the intelligent is how plain jane,average people get ahead you can tell her that this ferroequinologist (student of locomotives)is ON TO HER GAME oh well, she'll probably do well in business school (that's why American companies WILL be in the toilet in a few years)
"ferroequinologist (student of locomotives)"
Literally, student of the iron horse.
I've been laying low on this one..no, I don't have an alternate persuasion to hide. Whatever negatives are sid about railfans (Like any other passion some take it too far) think of some other things people do.. like sit for hours watching sports but their woman has to bring them beer and munchie because they cant lift their backsides. BUT I AM NOT SAYING ALL ARE LIKE THIS. hunting, fishing, racing cars,horses... you name it. We're no more "gay" or nuts than any other fans; railfanning generates a lot of good responsible people.
Thanks for making that site, it give's the text of the past two chats that have been held and I will link to it from Metrocard.cjb.net
metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
I'm going to put in another log, but first I want to set up a form where people can "opt out."
saw this pakage of nathans franks right here in vons supermarkets !! straight out of new york !!
too bad they are not kosher like hebrew national franks or best kosher shofar or issac jells etc...
i heard so much about them sorry if this is slightly off topic .........
These franks are not really the same as the ones in NY. The meat packer only uses the name from Nathans, and the quality is not the same as the NY ones.
When I lived in the southland (77-78, 84-87), I recall a Nathans in North Hollywood. These days Nathans will sell a franchise to anyone. I once had a Nathan frank at the Phoniex Airport.
The White Castle on the other hand are made by the same people in their plant in the Mid West. The frozen ones are ALMOST the same as the ones in the east. The WC fed my Crave for the monment.
reminds me of the ""rallys"" burger chain it is called ""checkers"" down south !!!
05/10/2000
"Checkers" is here east in long Island, The first one I saw was in Philadelphia looking out of a PCC on a fantrip!!
Bill Newkirk
We've got Checkers here in Baltimore, too. One I've seen is up on East Joppa Road in my area and I know of 1 on Frederick Avenue in West Baltimore. They are noted as being basically carry out only, except for some outside tables. Not very good in January when it's 3 degrees and snowing. Both Checkers also have competeting burger chains almost right door.
There used to be both Rally's AND Checkers in the Los Angeles area. If I remember right, there was a Checker's on Vermont Avenue & Third Street about 12-15 years ago, and then it became a Rally's.
Rally's, at least out here in California, is now run by Carl Karcher Enterprises (Carl's Jr.) of Anaheim, California. I don't know if they took over the Checker's outlets. They also own most of the Hardee's outlets around the country too.
........now the same Carl Karcher Enterprises Carls Jr. etc ......runs the HARDEES chain coast to coast ..........
the vermont avenue rallys is gone and boarded up however the vermont RED LINE station is
walking distance from where the rallys & checkers vermont outlet ... 12-15 years ago used to be .......
The Carl's Jr. chain owns the Hardee's chain (formerly based in Rocky Mount, North Carolina) now. Hardee's made a series of marketing blunders, including the disastrous acquisition of the Roy Rogers chain (which wasn't bad until they started rebranding them as Hardee's - it would have been better had they done it the other way around, and changed the Hardee's to Roy Rogers, IMHO - that move cost them 60% of Roy Rogers' customers) and was left wide open for a takeover. Unfortunately, the Carl's Jr. approach, even leaving them branded as Hardee's, isn't working too well; if they didn't have a good breakfast trade the chain would probably collapse. The East Coast just isn't ready for Chicken Stars. Actual restaurant ownership is under 10%, though - Hardee's was largely a franchise operation, although three of the major franchisees controlled nearly 70% of the franchises at one time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
.........so in the end like the banks media and everything else there is going to be one or two companies
owning everything coast to coast and no more individual (s) anymore running thier own !!??
like taco bell / kfc ...........etc.........
HA! Pepsico almost ran KFC, Taco Bell, etc right into the ground, not to mention handing Coke almost the greatest selling line EVER to use with other chains... As in, "Gee, why the hell should you guys be selling Pepsi, and giving money to your competition??" As a result, almost EVERY fast food chain not owned by that company spun off by Pepsico now serves Coke....Also, it hs been shown that Coke drinkers are much,much more loyal to their drink than Pepsi drinkers. The restaurant biz is way to specialized for amateurs to run
I don't RR was EVER all that hot of an operation, even when Marriott owned them. The big problem with RR was this: If you wanted burgers, there was a hundred places that did them better; fried chicken, the same, and if you wanted roast beef, Arbys or your local deli does THAT better....Roys never had a standout item of their own that would want you to make you come to them...PLUS, the unforgivable sin of serving PEPSI instead of COKE...just ask ANY KFC franchisee who had to stop selling Coke when Pepsi bought the chain from the Hubleien corporation.
What "Anon e Mouse" posted is EXACTLY what was reported in the Orange County, California newspapers a few weeks ago, about Carl's/Hardee's, even down to the breakfast report!!!
Having lived almost my entire adult life in North Carolina (my current sojourn in New Jersey is the primary aberration, and even with that we still have our home in NC) I consider myself something of an expert on biscuits. Hardee's, in NC at least, makes the absolutely best biscuits of any chain, even including Bojangles (although theirs are in second place). My older son, who eats pork now that he's dating a minister's daughter (we're Jewish), also says that their ham and sausage is far superior to any other chain's, and I'll vouch for their chicken and their eggs. But their lunch/supper menu is so-so - better than McDonald's, but so's almost everybody.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Nathans outlets at airports,on the turnpikes, etc are all franchised by the same outfit that has those horrible 'food courts' in Manhattan[The Riese Organization..] HOWEVER, the Nathans that are popping up in MALLS, are actually owned by Nathans Famous, and hence the company has a LOT more control over the QSC end of things...My local Nathans in my local mall is ALMOST as good as Stillwell Ave, whereas most of the Nathans on the turnpikes, in airports, etc, are pretty lame....I got to talk to a Nathans guy once, and he said about 15 years ago, the family sold those franchise rights,and regretted it ever since....they were lucky that they retained the rights for shopping malls, etc.... The packaged Nathans franks are also done on a local basis...the same way that Sam Adams beer is now made by such quality breweries as Genesee up in Rochester...
Talking about Nathan's-does anyone remember a hot dog place near Penn Station called Snack Time?? It was supposedly owned by a relative of Nathan's owner Nathan Handwerker and had the same franks and fries.
And how about the old Nathan's on Long Beach Road in Oceanside. I remember when they gave puppet shows to us kids there.
BY: Liam Pleven and Jordan Rau. ALBANY BUREAU
EDITION: ALL EDITIO
SECTION: News
DATE: 05-04-2000
A21
Albany-The day after leaders endorsed their most ambitious effort to control soaring state debt, they returned to the more familiar business of completing a budget that plans on borrowing billions for transportation and maneuvering to ensure favored projects are included.
Tuesday's talk of frugality was quickly replaced with extensive praise of the virtues of $17.1 billion in new road and bridge expenditures, which were detailed yesterday. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has a matching $17.1 billion capital plan. Only a few of the projects in each plan would be paid for through a $3.8 billion bond act that voters will consider in November.
In a joint statement, Gov. George Pataki praised the "smart investments in our highways and bridges" and Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno (R-Brunswick) trumpeted "parity in investments"- shorthand for guarantees that different regions of the state get their fair share. "Every region of the state will benefit," said Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver (D-Manhattan). There were several versions of the statement, each tailored to a different region.
Lawmakers were also looking to see which of their pet projects would be included in the budget bills that are due to be voted on starting today. Senate Democrats, who are in the minority, chose not to attend yesterday's legislative session and are threatening to sit out again today if they don't have a chance to review budget bills before they are asked to vote on them, which could halt adoption of the budget.
State officials said the new transportation debt would not exceed limits set under a debt overhaul agreement to be included in the $77.5 billion budget. That agreement sets specific caps on the amount the state can borrow.
But critics of the transportation projects said the huge expenditures contradicted the spirit, if not the letter, of the debt agreement.
"On the one hand, they're preaching fiscal restraint for the state; on the other hand, they're going deep in the hole," said Gene Russianoff, counsel to the Straphangers Campaign, a nonprofit group critical of the MTA plan.
Lawmakers shrugged off those complaints, and instead extolled the particular benefits to their regions. Sen. Dean Skelos (D-Rockville Centre) said, "When you take into account highway and bridges and the MTA capital plan, Long Island comes out about a billion dollars more than it would under traditional plans."
The Long Island projects include $50 million to bypass railroad crossings on the Long Island Rail Road's main line, which stretches from Jamaica to Hicksville. The plan also includes a new Wantagh State Parkway bridge over Sloop Channel; a wider Northern State Parkway bridge over bottlenecked Route 110; and improvements on the northbound Robert Moses Causeway bridge over Great South Bay.
Lawmakers also agreed to build a new 14-mile paved path along Ocean Parkway from Wantagh Parkway to Robert Moses Causeway and extend the Bethpage State Parkway bikeway. The MTA projects include a new LIRR link to Grand Central Terminal; the purchase of 470 new electric cars for the railroad; and renovations to Jamaica Station and Atlantic Terminal.
The New York City projects include fixing and resurfacing the Grand Central Parkway between Bell Boulevard and Jackie Robinson Parkway and installing better electronic monitors of road conditions in the nexus of the Van Wyck Expressway, Long Island Expressway and Brooklyn Queens Expressway. The plan also pays for the first stages of building a Second Avenue subway, improved access to LaGuardia Airport and more buses and subway cars.
"Our industry had a major lobbying effort this year to try to persuade the Legislature to address various levels of deficient bridges, safety and traffic congestion problems across the state," said Robert Carlino, director of Long Island Contractors' Association. "There are many Long Island projects that are deserving, and if the public sees fit to pass the referendum in November, those are some of the projects that will be funded by it."
© Copyright 2000, Newsday Inc.
what is going to happen to 63 street tunnel service
LOL. hey, i heard there is some repairs going on with the Manhattan bridge, what's going on?
Hey, stop screwing with my calendar. You are days LATE!
Arti
05/10/2000
[what is going to happen to 63 street tunnel service]
Do I detect an echo?......an echo?.....an echo?.......
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone have any access to free .shp files of the NYC subway that i can use with arcview? I need this for a school project i am working on. Thanx! Please respond via tewong@oise.utoronto.ca
What is an .shp file?
In the Steel Panthers (tm) series of wargames an .shp file contains the little tank icons.
One Hundred Thiry-one years ago, on May 10, 1869, the Golden Spike was driven at Promentory Point, Utah. This signaled the completion of the Transcontental Railroad, which was the beginning of the operning of the West.
Good news from NJT ! They just told me it is tentatively scheduled for Mid September 2000!
Hope it doesn't conflict with Bus Fest 2000 which I was told by the transit museum is Sunday 9/16/2000.
Hoboken festival has always been on a Saturday. If they did it on Sunday, the lack of service on the Main / Bergen line (what do they have, 3 trains each?) would deter many people from going. They can't do it on a week day for obvious reasons.
I hope this upcoming event improves...over the years.IMO, its just gone down hill....and was of little of no interest to me. In years past the festival was super...lots of interesting displays, vendors &lots of people...the last one was a dud..and I left after 1 hour...
I haven't gone to one since HF14. What's different / Missing?
Compared to the previous ones ( Been to most of them)...the last one was in '98...had half the vendors & rail exibits....and really not that many visitors....I was really dissapointed...Hope things improve this time around..as I always had a great time there....
My dad accidentally found the one in '98. There weren't many visitors because they didn't advertise enough.
This is probably a moot point to begin with, but I remember when the M used to run local to Coney Island Monday thru Friday. When they did reconstruction on the trestles on the Brighton Line, the M was switched over to the West End Line with the B. After the construction was finished, the M never returned back to the Brighton Line. Instead, the Q turned into the Brighton Exp, and the D, a full-time Brighton Lcl.
Is there anyone who can explain why the M was never brought back to the Brighton Line?
Apparently because most of the Brighton passengers wanted a one seat ride into the midtown Manhattan area. Running the M (or QJ before it) as the Brighton local forced passengers there to change to the D, while since the West End is only a three-track line, passengers at all stations have access to midtown via the B train under the current set-up.
Does the West End Line see a lot of traffic during rush Hrs? Because it would nice to have the B run as the West End Express from 9th Ave to Coney Island. Am Rush hour would be 6am - 10am, and pm rush hour would be from 3pm - 7pm. Have like a B and a B diamond.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Riders at the West End local stops would howl at having only M service at their stations, which is the very reason the M was never put back onto the Brighton line in the first place.
BTW, M service on the Brighton line ended in 4/86, with the first MAnhattan Bridge closure. This website has the date incorrectly as 1988.
Hence the B diamond and the B in the circle... At Coney Island have one B then send an diamond B (express next), after the regular B in the circle passes, send the M. That way West End local station folfs will have a local every 2 to 3 mins. An and express every 5 mins. But it all depends how many passengers use the West End.
Frank D
West End express service is really pointless. All it does is rush passangers up the line to the eventual bottleneck at Dekalb Ave.
Not really, both B's will bypass Dekalb Ave. Leving only the M, N and R stopping. Same traffic on the B now just one is a sort of Super Express From Coney Island. The Trip would cut 10-15 mins into Manhattan. My point is why have a third track and not use it in revenue service. Look at the 2 and the 5. The make that clutter work.
ECU Pirate
The 2 and 5 (in the Bronx, I assume you mean) has 8 stations on the WPR and 5 on the Dyre line. They then skip 7 stations south of 180 St.
The B-exp would only have passengers from Coney Island, Bay 50 St, and Bay Parkway, then some from 62 St., not enough to justify having a train skip most of the crowded stations. Besides the M and B run only about every 7 minutes each. Together they provide good service (from Bay Parkway), but losing any of them would really provide not enough service.
Also, lots of lines have 3rd tracks, but not all of them are useful for the passenger density: Jerome Avenue, New Utrecht Avenue, upper Broadway, McDonald Avenue, Liberty Avenu, even the 2 & 5 in the Bronx north of E.180 St. Sometimes more frequent service is better than infrequent but faster (for some) service.
Yes the 2 and 5 on WPR has 8 stops, but you are still pushing three trains into E 180th Street. Which was my point to Chris. IF the 2 and 5 can do it, why not the B and M. Also it really would depend on how many passengers are riding the West End.
You actually are not losing any service because the M will run local and every other B will run local as well. But i do understand where you are coming from.
1)Jerome Ave express wouldn't make sense, since the D is underneath.
2)New Utrecht I assume you mean West End Line (B and M)
3)Mc Donald Ave, which is the Culver Line use to have an express, dunno why they stopped?
4)Liberty Ave, impossible to do an express. Very Hard
5)WPR line, I don't know if E180th can handle the traffice, plus I inquired about that express a while back and the response was that E241st couldn't handle both 2 Local and 5 Bronx Thru Exp.
Frank D
Both the 2 and 5 run to midown. Both run at 5 minute headways during the rush hours. West End express trains would bypass the most heavily used stops on the line, leaving the practically useless M train to shoulder the burden of these stops. The M runs on an 8.5 minute headway and the B runs on a 6.5 minute headway. This makes running B trains on the express tracks impractical and inconvienent to the bulk of the West End riders. And M trains are 20% shorter than B trains, meaning less capacity.
Sometimes, express service is not a desirable thing...
Exactly...
..especially when the local can outrun the express....
The reason the <5> doesn't go to 241st is because it is easier to move trains to/from the yard if they start/end at 238th.
Is there anyone who can explain why the M was never brought back to the Brighton Line?
I don't know the official reason, but the switch of the M to West End restored two historical service patterns--two Brighton services to midtown (ex-Brighton Local and Express) and a West End express service to midtown and a local service to the Nassau Loop. (ex-West End Express and West End Short Line).
The fact that the service pattern has remained since implies that the historical service pattern was valid and shouldn't have been altered in the first place.
The only problem with that is today there are two West End locals. The B doesn't go express.
It seems kind of silly to have 3 tracks and use only 2.
Maybe they should tear down the third track 8-)
Both West End services ran local on the West End Line itself but express on 4th Avenue, and the B does this.
And if that bothers you, think of how I feel about the Sea Beach having become a local like the rotten R is. That hurts. My favorite train was the real express when I was a kid, and so was the West End for that matter. We have to accept reality but it isn't easy sometimes.
The 1967 plan having the Brighton local served only by Nassau St trains (QJ and then M lines) was a huge mistake in the first place.
[The 1967 plan having the Brighton local served only by Nassau St trains (QJ and then M lines) was a huge mistake in the first place.]
Why? Athough in NYC and the majority opinions here seem to favor one seat ride. Rest of the world seems to operate on the concept of transferrng or even intermodal (especially Eastern Europe average b/w stations 3/4 of a mile.)
Arti
Well, the Brighton line is the only one to Coney Island with four-track service, which means it has to have two lines. Putting the Q on the line with the D means every station on the line has direct access to midtown Manhattan.
The Sea Beach has four tracks (sort of), but only uses two, while the West End, and Culver for that matter, are three track els that aren't using their center track. Putting the M on the West End means if it comes first in the morning, people on the platform cna just wait for the B to arrive next instead of having to get on, and then off again at another stop.
People in the outerboroughs are pretty demanding about that one-seat ride into Manhattan. If they weren't, Culver F express service bypassing Carroll Gardens never might not have been discontinued. But the Caroll Street passengers didn't want to deal with the G and a transfer at Bergen Street.
Almost True. M riders can go to 36 St. maybe get an N to DeKalb and then a D/Q to Manattan, and I bet some do that.
But back to the F/G Bergen St. thing: It wasn't so much the changing trains at Bergen St. that bothered the passengers at Carroll, Smith-9 and 4 Avenue, it was the walking downstairs to another platform to do it. And the G (actually then the GG) didn't run often enough and used shorter trains, and those were the most popular stations. And in the evening, you had to walk UP a flight of stairs. And to go to lower Manhattan, you then had to take 3 trains, and to go up Lexington Avenue, you had to take 4 trains. And to go to a local stop on Park Avenue South, you had to take 5 trains. Even though the service on paper seemed great, these other factors conspired against it.
There are 5in. x 3ft. 'slots' spaced every 13ft on the original 5(?) car IRT platforms (delineated by the cast iron columns). They can be seen at 72,110 and Bleecker Sts and possibly others. They are perpendicular to platform edge and denote some early 'experiment'.
Is it possible the 1st IRT line addressed safety concerns with handrails? If so, what motivated their demise aside from passenger impalement when exiting a car at rush hour?
It's quite possible that handrails were once used on the Contract One portion. In fact, they're still used on the outer ends of the Flushing line's Grand Central station. They may have been removed when the R units were all phased in, since their door arrangement was different from the vestibuled equipment they replaced.
I recently was waiting at Times Square for a Queensbound N/R train. I turned around and, on the Downtown bound N/R platform, saw a "7" Train going slowly by (obviously not stopping). Where do you think it was going and do you think it got onto that line via QueensBoro Plaza? It still seemed VERY odd to see a "7" train on that line!
Going to CI yard perhaps !!
they are seen there fairly often usually in the evenings on their way to the CI yard for any maintanece that can't be done in Corrona
Wonder how fast the Redbirds go in the 60th street tubes. I'd like to see them fly through there!
Pretty fast, I would imagine. I'll bet they have plenty of steam to make the upgrade s well. They probably zip past the local stops along Broadway.
If it followed the N Route to Coney Island, I wonder how fast it could take the Sea Beach express straight to Coney Island?
Frank D
Good question.
Even odder yet to see an N/R on the "7" at Times Square, no?
JRC
it would be mor fun seeing what was left of the platform after it plowed through the station.....
Actually seven stations, since it would have to take out the edges of Queensboro Plaza, Court House Square, Hunterspoint, Vernon-Jackson, Grand Central and Fifth Ave. before it could even get to Times Square.
Of course, odds are it would be plugged up in the Steinway Tunnel before it ever could get to Manhattan. Now an N train of Triplexes going at full speed...
Oi vey! The Triplexes would blaze a path of their own through the Steinway tubes. Nothing could stop one of those brutes.
OK, gang, here are the answers to my route quiz.
1. I was looking for the NX and QB. Both left Brighton Beach in opposite directions and wound up at 57th St.-7th Ave. Keep in mind that from 11/27/67 thru 8/16/68, QB trains terminated at Brighton Beach. However, since I didn't specify " two rush hour, peak-direction routes", I will also accept N and QB. On August 18, 1968, QB trains began terminating at Coney Island.
2. Rush hour E trains met up with GG trains at Hoyt-Schermerhorn from opposite ends of the station after running side by side in Queens.
3. Rush hour E trains shared the same track with F trains in Queens, stopped at W. 4th St. on different levels, and met again at Jay St. across the platform.
4. The 2 and 5 thru express started at 241st St. WPR and ended up at Flatbush Ave.
5. The AA and BB operated exclusively in Manhattan. When one was running, the other wasn't.
6. The GG/G is encompassed within the F.
7. The A and AA ran side by side in Manhattan. This pattern continued on weekends with the A and C until last year.
8. N and R.
9. I was looking for the 1 and 2. Other correct answers are the 4 and 5 during non-rush hours and the 4 and 6.
10. 1 and 3.
11. I was looking for the E and F. Since the question was phrased ambiguously, I will also accept E and N, F and N, also 6 and 7.
12. The EE and N were integrated, with the N taking over the EE portion to Whitehall St. during rush hours while at the same time maintaining its existing service pattern.
13. Uptown Bronx-bound D and Queens-bound E trains appear to be operating lefthanded as they enter 7th Ave.-53rd St. Uptown B and E trains would also be correct. Downtown trains appear to be operating righthanded at 7th Ave.
14. At 47th-50th Sts. on the 6th Ave. line, southbound B, D, and Q trains are against the wall while F trains are in the middle. At 42nd St., they flipflop. B/F, D/F, and Q/F are all correct.
15. 5 (non-rush hours) and 6.
16. L and 7. Shuttles do not count.
17. 2 and 3.
18. D and Q.
19. A and C.
20. B and D.
(Drum roll) And the winner is none other than our resident tile and mosaic enthusiast and car spotter extraordinaire, Mr. Slant R-40!!!
Congratulations, Wayne! You have your choice of prizes:
A trip to Coney Island on a Q train of your favorite cars (what else?) and lunch at Nathan's. Yes, you have to change trains at Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach. Hey, don't laugh. The old Concentration game show awarded such a prize in The Envelope once. Only the announcer said the contestant would be whisked there on a NY subway train "under the East River". There was an accompanying front end photo of an R-32, IIRC, with the front destination curtain set to Coney Island. Don't recall the route; it may have been an N. (They didn't say anything about Nathan's.)
An hour in heypaul's motorman's cab, BMT setup and all, to practice controller and brake valve applications to the sounds of his tape recordings.
A one-pound can of Bondo for patching Redbirds. Or maybe one Redbird.:-) Or for patching roofs on R-38s.
Second prize, a choice of what's left, goes to 73 WAVERLY SQ. via Harvard, or Hahvahd.
Thanks to all who gave it a shot.
You know, my message about forms has disappeared, any reasons?
I don't recall seeing this posted. For the second time in two weeks, I've seen R46 #5940 at the north end of an "R" train. The front destination sign displayed an "R" in a DIAMOND and the color was BROWN, not yellow.
Why is a Broadway route designation brown? And why is there a "diamond" display for route "R"?
Joe Caronetti
It's a relic of the time that R trains went from Brooklyn via the Nassau Street Line to Chambers Street, in addition to Broadway R service during Rush Hours. For clearance purposes, they don't allow any 75-foot cars on any BMTED lines. My guess on car choice would be any 60-foot car starting with R27 for that line (in existanse late 1970s?-mid 1980s?). It may have been made like that when the person changing the sign from something like "Not In Service" saw an R and just stopped, not knowing it was brown. I have no idea why signs for the BMTED are on cars that can't run on those lines.
Hey R.M. Wow, I actually forgot about that alternate "R" service. Must be having "senior" moments now or something. But why on an R46??
That's the real kicker. Like you said, train operator saw 'R' and stopped there. Maybe he's a fan and signed it up that way for the fun of it. I can't figure how it got on a 75 footer in the first place.
Another prank?
Joe Caronetti
I don't think its a mistake. The sign might not have a normal R in there, or it was damaged. I have seen the brown diamond R around for the past few months, as well as the brown round R for the past few years, always on the same cars (5924, I believe).
Can you make me a G.O. What if graphic with blue B,D,and F,yellow P and E,Orange A and C,and a Purple P(Flushing BMT service). Also a Red 5 and a green 2. The R46 clearance problems start near the Willy B so the R46 cars on the Chambers trains would be no problem
AFAIK, 75-footers can navigate their way through the Nassau St./Kenmare/Delancey portion without any problems. It's when they get to Essex St. that clearance problems arise.
I don't know, the Queens bound curve between Canal St and the Bowery is very sharp. But no speed restrictions exist here, probably meaning that this track is fairly safe.
The curve may be sharp, but it's in open tunnel (no walls) with no revenue tracks next to it; therefore, any "overhang" problem should not prevent a 75-footer from passing this curve.
subfan
Won't those trains break into pieces? Personal observation suggests that curve between Bowery & Canal seems too sharp for a 75 footer unless it is made more gradual.
It's no worse than the one on the "N"/"R" n. of Cortlandt Street.
75-footers go there all the time.
wayne
The sharpest curve is northbound just south of Chambers Street. Any 75-footer would be advised to go slowly there, if indeed it is possible to clear.
The curve north of Canal is in a four-track stretch - probably not a problem for 75 foot cars. The one near Chambers is to worry. And there's the clearance/sidewsipe problem east of Essex.
wayne
Shhh!! Not so loud! Next thing you know, they'll install a WD or GT there.:-)
I was going to ask what the difference is between GT and WD? They are both speed controls !
They should install a Wheel Detector to enforce a speed of 40 MPH.
WD
40
I always liked that curve since you can see across all 4 tracks. My understanding is that it was built that way - no walls between tracks - in case the BMT were to build a link with the Broadway subway there. This was a popular place for publicity pix years ago....
05/12/2000
I remember in the late 70's when riding R-44's on the (D) and the Manhattan Bridge was closed, the (D)'s were routed from DeKalb through the tunnel, up the Nassau St.line, past Chambers all way to Essex St making no stops!. At Essex middle, the train would change ends and proceed through the (KK) connection back to Sixth Avenue. I remember riding this move and 75' R-44's were used. Does anybody out there remember the "scenic route"?
Bill Newkirk
...my website, that is. The new URL is http://nav.to/rmmarrero. Nothing is there yet, but soon, I'll have everything that was at http://forbin.qc.edu/wcb/students/rmarrero/files/ in here. I'll tell you when to update your links. Until then, continue to visit my current home here.
Transit Pictures 5 and Transit Pictures 6 have successfully been uploaded.
Transit Pictures 1 through 4 will be uploaded as soon as I make some file modifications, mostly reducing the file sizes and editing the HTML a little bit. Transit Pictures 1 will have a new version along with the old version. The new version will be called Transit Pictures 1a.
Subway Sounds, TransferPoint, and everything else will be uploaded next week.
See my site as it is now Go!
I have successfully uploadedTransfer Point, Transit Pictures 1, Franklin Av Shuttle, Download Center, Bus Signs, and others. I should have Transit Pictures 3 and 4 up by 11:00 EDT today. Click above to go directly to Transfer Point, then navigate through the site. If you get a 404 error, the link hasn't been completed yet. See you there!
The floodgates have been opened all the way. My site has been moved to the new server. You may now update your links. The URL is:
http://nav.to/rmmarrero.
See you there!!
[ http://nav.to/rmmarrero ]
Whenever I go to that page, I am always redirected to a fortunecity page:
http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/romrow/1360
Why is that? It seems that you are telling us to go to one server when your files are actually on a different server.
That's the way it's supposed to be. The first one is shorter and easier to remember.
My files are on said FortuneCity server. As PoRI said, the URL I gave "is shorter and easier to remember." It's a free service I got as part of signing up for web space on FortuneCity. Want your own? Go to www.v3.com.
CJB.net is better.
No popups.
As the A or C train leaves Euclid Ave for Grant Ave, there looks t be some trackage about 4 tracks that head under the Grant Ave station out to somewhere. I am not talking about the Tracks that head to the Pitkin yards...
Anyone, have a clue where they end up or do they just dead end.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Heading East
Tracks A5 and A6 Head for Pitkin Yard
Euclid Station East Side
A2
A6 to Yard
A4
A3
A5 to Yard
A1
You can access A6 from Tracks A2 and A4
You can access A5 from A3 and A1
then
A2 Deadend
K2 to Grant Av Queens Bound
A4 deadend
YOu can access K2 from A2 or A4
You can access K1 from A3 or A1
A3 Dead end
K1 to Grant Av Brooklyn Bound
A1 Dead End
From the Yard
K6 to Grant Av Middle Track,,becomes track K5-6
K5 Track to K1 Local Eastbound Queens boundtrack
Heading out of the yard immediately on the Eastbound Side
Stub end Track A8 heads into K6 into the yard SB
Stub end track A7 heads into K6 into the yard NB
Looks like
from Euclid Av to Grant Av
A5 A6 K6 A8 K5 A7
Track Map:
Thank you
My interpretation came from the book also,,and BTW,,my name is in this book
Steve L
NYC FD
Are the NYCTA electric locos (EO7,8,9 etc.) built by General Electric? If so what are the specific model numbers? Does the SBK operate any electrics?
-Daniel
According to my reference source, there was no #8 ever built. #s 5, 6 & 7 were built by General Electric in 1910, 1921 and 1925 respectively. #9 was built in 1943 by Whitcomb Locomotive. While no date is given, Locos 10 & 11 were also built by GE. They were 4 wheel locos with no trucks. Wheels & traction motors were mounted tot he frame.
BTW, 10-11 last ran around 1987 or so. They were last tranferred in 1997 from Westchester to 207 Street. One is on the scrap line while the other (11?) was incorporated to the museum fleet, or the restoration society. It was the only transfer I ever made where there was a brake pipe rupture in the middle of a train (10? being stripped) AND both ends could SAFELY control the entire train. Any guesses?
According to the same source, #10 was transferred to the Museum 8/9/95. Of course, that could mean transferred on paper. #11 was scrapped but no date was given. Locos #12 & 13 were built by GE in 1948. They were the last built pre-unification. #s 50 - 53 were built in 1968 as R-37s
I might be wrong on that date. I made the transfer the year "dieselgate" went down but somehow I remember it as 1997. I clearly remember the rubber air hose used to run around the 11, which was sandwiched in the middle with 10 on the north end dead in tow but brakes cut in trainline leaving the IRT. Thanks to the supt at the time, I got a lot of interesting moves while on work trains.
By the way, #9 is still alive and well. Click here.
Happy to report that I ran this engine once, at 36 st yard about 30 years ago. I believe , am sure, there was a loco #8 that was the same but was out of service and cannibalized as iit was the same type.
Saw this rare sight this afternoon. Around 5PM, a train of R40 slants (containing set #4393-4394) signed as a Z running MAnhattan-bound at Kosciosco St. I always thought the slants didn't have Z signs...
er, make that set #4392-4393 ....
I just witnessed outside my window another (possibly the same string) R40 slant train, running as a J train along Jamaica Ave. A very weird sight indeed ...
They're short cars right now. I noticed E.N.Y. yard totally empty during the rush hour last night with the exception of cars in the maintenance shop. Usually, you normally see a few cars on some of the tracks.
I wonder if it's still there today...
Was that the front end sign or the side destination sign?
Those are likely leftover "L" trains. They've sent an additional 28 Slant R40 to Eastern Div. recently.
wayne
Both front and side said "Z". They must've come from the L, because some of the signs in the middle of the train were set to "L".
I saw a set of R40 slants on the L, where the side signs on one car had the Z indication. I took a picture of it.
Funny, I was just thinking during last weekend's GO that they should put slant 40's on the J, because many of them had "Marcy Av" pasted on the bottom sign for last year's M service to Marcy.
This week I started trainning on the R142. Today on the White Plains Road Line I got a feel of the train. I did good on it but have to get more of a feel for it. The train Operators have only 5 day to learn how to run it and Conductors have one day. I was told the Goal is to get the train running in service starting in June. Also I was told the Bombardier train will be tested in Service on the No.2 Line and the Kawasaki will be tested on the No.6 line which I am one of the No.6 crews that will be running the train during the test in service. I will see my Conductor on Friday since he will also be tested on it. Its been a interesting week learning all this new stuff.
Congratulations Dave on being one of the early ones to run the R-142 in revenue service. I look forward to hearing updates of your activities, and reactions to the various systems and features on the cars!
Good for you Dave i thought they would start the tests on the 5 line first they could use the equipment those trains are rustboxes now, so how did they handle the hairpin curves on the Elevated structure? i think the big tests will come when R142's hit revenue service the stop and going, people holding the doors, overcrowding so forth hope to hear from you soon,I personally saw the train in the East 180th street yard,its a beautiful train, i cant wait to ride it.
Yes I also though they would pick the No.5 over the No.6. It was a suprise.
Thanks Todd I'll keep you updated.
Dave, how does the R-142 feel, compared to the Redbirds and R-62s you're used to operating? Harder or easier to handle, more or less responsive?
Any new train without a railfan window sucks...
"Any new train without a railfan window sucks..."
How poetic. Hand the man an award!
I'm being sarcastic, people!
I think it's like the R62. Double windows, but you still can see through clearly.
Come to Philadelphia. We have both new trains and railfan windows (real windows on the Market Frankford and PATCO lines, a transverse cab on Broad Street, but you can still see the track ahead, and what goes on inside the cab.
Did they change the seats on th M-4 yet? If so, they still have the two that face out the front window, right?
They did not change seats, and I have no idea when they will. They have 3 sets of 2 seats that face out of both the front and back windows.
You are correct! Those (3) sets of (2) seats are the best seats in the house. If you can't get to the first row, the 2nd row isn't too bad and the 3rd row still gives you darn goos view!
Chuck Greene
Any new train without a railfan window sucks...
Take a chainsaw and make some unauthorized modifications. :-)
CH.
The R 142 is easier to Operate. The Brakes smooth and there no run off when you take a Brake like those currect trains. Also you only need one hand instead of two to operate the train. Also if there are any problems it will come up on the Operating Screen. The Operating Screen will have the Time,Date, All car Nos., Intervel,Pervious Stop,Next Stop,Desination and other stuff like if the Line map is on or off. Also in the Cab there are 2 heaters and 2 horns. Also one diffrence in Braking is with the current car you Lose Dynamic Brake under 10MPH with the R142 you lose it under 3MPH. Also the train has the Doors Right and Doors Left feature. The T/O must activate the Button before the Conductor can open.
More later
Also the train has the Doors Right and Doors Left feature. The T/O must activate the Button before the Conductor can open.
No more opening the doors on the wrong side, or over nothingness! Good idea, but might be a pain if the T/O forgets.
Two horns, eh? I wonder what pitches they are.
I think I remember seeing a Doors Left and a Doors Right button in an R44 cab.
Does the conductor have a "door reopen" button? For instance to reopen a door that someone is blocking without reopening the whole section of the train. The new cars on the Jubilee line (and presumably the Northern as well) have this feature. Saves a lot of door motor wear and tear.
-Dave
Yes its called Local Recycle button which the door being obstructed will open only instead of the whole train.
This is a good feature that may save time at busy stations.
Also about the New R142 is the Communications Feature. Train Crews can now hit a button that will put important messages from Control Center over the PA. The PA speckers are on the Inside and outside the train so everyone will know whats happening.
Also like airplanes these trains will have a Black Box.
..............thats fine until it breaks down like some of the non -- r 38s do on the A train to far rockway when they
either half work or break down and go silent .........at least the redbirds work ( the pa systems )
see you in october for ......""PROJECT REDBIRD"".............!!!
Ah, but the $64,000 question is: will passengers actually listen?
Answer that correctly, and you're 4 questions away from $1,000,000.
Of course not, only railfans will, who, in turn, will inform passenegers who will ignore anyone's transit info unless they are wearing an MTA hat or jacket. Most times station employees know less of what's going on than the well-educated railfan, ie. me, who gave accurate directions to someone who had to travel through 2 different G.O.s on a Sunday to Roosevelt Island(take the F shuttle (S) to 34st, then uptown (N), then Queensbridge (S)). He immediately asked a station agent afterward, who told him what to do (Take this F (points to the one that clearly says via crosstown) to 50st and transfer to Q.)
Dave we miss ya at Pelham Bay can't wait to get the story from you first hand!!!
Anthony
On the northbound exp. track, near the north end of the 8th Ave. station, there is a home signal for southbound trains. But, there's no interlocking between it and the next two signals (I think they're auotomatic or approach signals.). What's the purpose of the home signal?
It's there to stop a train operating in the reverse direction from conflicting with a train using the interlocking to change ends. Say a northbound is using the middle track and is heading towards 8th Av. At the same time a southbound has entered the same track to turn and return North. In order to ensure the two don't have a head on crash, the northbound is held at that home signal in the middle of nowhere.
During evening rush hours, there are several deadhead F trains running Manhattan-bound on the middle track of the Culver line.
Where do these deadhead F train start their revenue service?
Thanks a lot in advance.
Chaohwa
Jay Street
Deadhead trains come out of Coney Island yard and run down the middle track until they reach 4th Avenue, then they go to the local northbound track and start at Smith and 9th Streets. I have started many runs from there when I worked the "F" line from CI Yard.
Also, If a southbound train is late, the tower dispatcher may send the train express down the middle track after the Ditmas Avenue station.
Why can't they use the express tracks north of 4th Ave, and run express all the way to Jay?
TransitWorker is right. I, too, have worked those jobs for the PM rush hour. Those F trains are put-ins from Coney Island Yard and run on the express tracks up to 4th Avenue, then go into service at Smith-9th Streets.
Though there is a platform on the lower level for express trains to stop at the Bergen Street Station, it is currently closed to revenue service; therefore eliminating the express from Church Avenue to Bergen Street. But take heart. I have heard it being said that once the G permanently terminates at Court Square in Queens, the TA will extend it to Church Avenue. So perhaps there will soon be express service on the Culver Line.
And I have yet another question: north of 4th Avenue after the switches that connect the express and local tracks, I've noticed that there is another track that breaks off from the express tracks in the middle and descends to a lower level. Where does this track go? Or is it just a relay track used to turn trains back to Coney Island?
This track descends a bit, and runs as far as the first steel bridge (note the stairway where the track terminates). I suppose that this track may once have been used to hold a spare train to provide "gap" service, but I have only seen it used to store and turn a train which was taken out of service (somewhere between Ditmas Ave. and 4th Ave.).
Thanks BigJohn. So this track leads to nowhere special? Is there a bumper block at the steel bridge?
During morning rush hours, where do those F trains at Coney Island Yard start their revenue service? Kings Highway or Smith-9th Streets?
Chaohwa
YES,
During rush hour, every other train terminates at Kings Highway and turns in the middle track. Well not every other but close to it. This is in addition to put ins from CI Yard. I've also seen put ins from CI Yard arrive empty center track, wait to go into service with other trains from CI passing on the local.
Will be on the F from the Highway Friday, have to go to our Brooklyn Office near the canal so no Head end R40 trip for me :-(
Also, I notice that some of these "deadhead" trains say "NOT IN SERVICE" on the electronic side signs, while others say they're going to Queens. Why can't they all say "NOT IN SERVICE" until they come into service, so as to confuse people less?
I totally agree. Sometimes when I'm waiting for a train at Church Avenue, I see a train pass by on the express track signed
F 6 AV LOCAL
F QUEENS EXPRESS
F to179 ST/QUEENS
Every time I see one of those trains with signs like that, I hope that it stops so I have a quick ride between Church and Jay. Except that now, they switch to the local track north of 4th Avenue, that means you'd hear from the conductor at 7th Avenue: This is a Manhattan-bound F train. The next stop is Smith & 9th Street. Stand Clear of the closing doors.
These trains operate lite to Jay Street where it goes into servuce at this point. They are reguarly scheduled trains that do that.
The trains use the express tracks all the way to Jay Street, then they go into service at Jay Street. Sometimes they will hold them outside of 4 Avenue instead of stacking them up at Bergan Street to wait to go into service. This is done not to block the G Trains coming out of 4 Avenue.
COME ON PEOPLE!!!
This morning at 9:10am, I got off a Manhattan-bound #7 express and was on the Manhattan-bound Queensboro Plaza platform waiting for the N. I was surprised to see a R32 N with the last few cars still in the station with the first half pulled out already. But the train wasn't moving and I saw many people & Transit workers near the last car. I approached the last car from the platform and was told there was a sick lady unconscious on the floor inside the last car of the R32 N. There were MANY people trapped inside the entire R32 N since it was still rush hour. I took the next #7 train that pulled into the station for work instead.
A friend of mine who uses the same lines and starts a little later told me that at around 10:00am the train was STILL in the station (!) and my friend had to take the next #7 also.
Isn't it possible to carry that one sick passenger onto the platform (since the last car was still in the station) and not cause lateness for those poor fellows trapped inside that R32 N for more than an hour most likely, or those that uses the Astoria line, or even those in Manhattan wanting to go to Sea Beach? She was only about 3 feet from the nearest R32 car door to the platform. Is there a policy preventing sick passengers from being carried off at situations like this? And is it proper for another passenger to pull the emergency brake as this situation indicated?
What would have been the most proper thing to do if this wasn't?
Thanks in advance.
I do not know what happened to the customer. We do not move sick customers for fear of lawsuits--if we move a person incorrectly we could cause further injury to the customer or to ourselves. I have had first aid training and they always tell us that unless there is an exztreme immediate danger ie car is burning then dont move the person-- wait for the professional help.
NYCT is experimenting with nurses at several locations to assess if a person can be moved or if we have to wait for EMS.
As an employee of NYCT I regret you had an inconvenience.
OK thanks for the response.
It didn't cause me much inconvenience anyway, since I wasn't on that train. Guess it's unfortunate those other people were. I think there were transit workers with the sick woman initially, but probably not professional physicians.
The real question is not why TA personnel did not move the sick passenger. The real question is how long it took EMS to respond and why they chose not to move the passenger. Maybe they responded promptly and needed as long as it took to stabilize their patient, or maybe not.
We transit workers are not authorized to MOVE a sick or injured customer, the individual can be asked If they can move to the station platform and if no other person ie: Police Officer, Platform Conductor or Train Service Supervisor is available to wait with the sick/injured customer till EMS arrives the train Conductor must wait with then person and the train must now be discharged. lets put the shoe on the other foot IF YOU left your home/work feeling well and after you've boarded your train became ill how would you prefer to be treated? must passengers start sucking their teeth and causing attitude or chaos because someone becomes sick on their train... how about some compassion for the person number one and nummber two if you see a sick customer NOT PULL the EMERGENCY BRAKE between stations notify the train crew who will call for assistance and remember that help may not always arrive immediately..
Well said.
Where I disagree is with the requirement that the conductor must wait with the sick passenger on the platform (thereby taking the train out of service). It would be a lot less disruptive to have the station agent close the booth and wait with the passenger, with the train going on its merry way. Conductors can't provide any more assistance than station agents can, and the inconvenience of a closed booth is tiny compared to that of having to discharge a train.
the inconvenience of a closed booth is tiny compared to that of having to discharge a train.
Really? What if this happened at Grand Central? West 4th St? Port Authority Bus Terminal? Massive lines to get Metrocards or tokens. Tiny inconvenience? I don't think so. Or what about those stations in the outer boroughs with one token booth and only one person staffing it?
the requirement that the conductor must wait with the sick passenger ..
Sick / injured passengers on rapid transit facilities is unfortunate, but it does happen, and I think the NYCT employees are taking reasonable and prudent steps to take care of the situation. Holding a train to prevent further injury or to stablize a patient is the right thing to do. I wouldn't want this to happen to me and have me left "unattended". Sometimes, in treating the sick passenger, they're may not be sufficient personnel to let the others off the train, as the situation here was a few cars were still adjacent to the platform.
--Mark
excellent point Mark! Also there is *our* security. We are taught never to open the booth door to any customer. Their reasoning is that it could be a trick to get in the booth and rob the booth. If the person is able to get off the train we ask them to sit near the booth or not to enter the system to start with.
[re having station agents wait with sick customers]
[Also there is *our* security. We are taught never to open the booth door to any customer. Their reasoning is that it could be a trick to get in the booth and rob the booth. If the person is able to get off the train we ask them to sit near the booth or not to enter the system to start with.]
This is one of the things about the Transit Authority that really disgusts me. Management is more concerned about the money in a booth than about the safety of their customers. Let's say that a passenger collapses in front of the booth and doesn't appear to be breathing. The station agent follows the rules and stays locked away in the booth and merely calls for help ... by the time help arrives, of course, the passenger will be dead. And let's further assume that the station agent could have saved the passenger if he or she had been able to intervene directly (I know, that certainly won't be the case all the time). This is not "proper procedure," no matter what the suits at Jay Street say, it is an outrage and in an ideal world should lead to a massive judgment against the TA. In fact, wasn't a station agent's "just following orders" refusal to help part of the reason behind the big judgment in that Utah tourist's murder?
Oh yes, about the "ruse" factor. Maybe it's true, the collapsed passenger is part of a scheme to get the booth open, and the thieves pull off a robbery. BIG [DELETED] DEAL. The loss of a few thousand bucks, if that, doesn't remotely begin to compare with the potential loss of a person's life.
Forgive me for ranting, but this money-is-more-valuable-than-life attitude really annoys me. People who ride the subway are trusting that the TA will look out for their safety. They probably would be very disappointed, if that's the word, to know that safety of the TA's precious money is more important.
If a booth is robbed Transit does not pay- the Station Agent has to pay and will be interrogated by the police, face charges and possible dismissal by transit, police search of your residence, drug test, etc.
We had to sign an agreement that any shortage in booth funds must be paid by the station agent. (If we are over we send in the money and when verified they'll let us know and then we can deduct from a future remittance to Transit.)
Station Agents do not make the rules. Transit usually sends a Station Supervisor to the secene for sick customers along with first response by NYPD. EMS, ambulance or Fire Dept will be called by the NYPD upon their arrival. In the case of a track fire, NYFD will respond but police will usually get to the location first, followed by NYFD and Supervision.
[If a booth is robbed Transit does not pay- the Station Agent has to pay and will be interrogated by the police, face charges and
possible dismissal by transit, police search of your residence, drug test, etc.]
That is just plain ridiculous. If I ever had any doubts about the idiocy of the suits at Jay Street, they've just been dispelled.
First of all, most places where people handle money, if the till comes up short, the cashier usually is held liable.
Second, A station Agent or token clerk is not qualified to administer to an ill customer.
Third, The station agent and the MTA could be held liable if the station agent's incorrect actions when attempting to render assistance.
I think you are overzealously and illogically seeking to blame the TA/MTA for a societal problem.
[re station agents' unwillingness to help people in distress]
[First of all, most places where people handle money, if the till comes up short, the cashier usually is held liable.]
Yes, in cases of ordinary cash shortages. Not in cases of robbery.
[Second, A station Agent or token clerk is not qualified to administer to an ill customer.]
I clearly acknowledged as much in my original posting. But that doesn't mean that there are NO situations (medical or crime-related) in which a station agent's direct intervention might help.
[Third, The station agent and the MTA could be held liable if the station agent's incorrect actions when attempting to render
assistance.]
True. But as I said earlier, human life is more important than money. And don't forget that the TA can be (and IIRC has been) held liable for *not* helping people.
[I think you are overzealously and illogically seeking to blame the TA/MTA for a societal problem]
Horsefeathers. Subway riders are trusting their safety to the TA. I fully acknowledge that there are limits to that trust, that riding the subway (like everything else) cannot be made 100% risk free. But that *does not mean* that the TA should not be required to do its utmost to keep its riders safe and sound. If that requires that some transit workers take on a degree of risk themselves, so be it. If they're unwilling to do so, let them look for jobs somewhere else.
I think you are overzealously and illogically seeking to blame the TA/MTA for a societal problem.
Maybe the TA should spend a little money (I know I just said the magic word and people are going to scream) on first aid training for some of its token clerks and conductors. I'm sure that many of these people would be more likely to render assistance when needed if they felt more capable of doing so and the TA would be more willing to permit or even encourage such assistance if it felt that its people were prepared to do so without creating legal problems. Rather than justify the status quo, we should seek to improve it.
Perhaps CityBank or Starbucks or Barnes & Nobel should train its pesonnel to respond to emergencies in front of their stores. Do you want to be the first? And what if the person who keels over is not a 20 or 30 year old blond or a guy in a business suit? What if he or she is homeless, with body lice or worse? Will you be the one, with minimal training, to administer CPR? Will you risk bringing home god-knows-what to your family because your boss sends you to a 2-day first aid course? Of course not and neither should any other minimally trained individual be required to do so. Don't be so quick to burden others unless you are willing to do more than talk. In the incident that started this thread, the person allegedly had a massive coronary. If a TA person did apply CPR and the outcome were the same, there'd be 50 - 100 people who would gladly testify for some ambulance chaser who will be suing the TA & the employee for wrongful death, swearing that the TA employee did 'IT' wrong.
Let us back up a second, Peter. The problem is not that the TA abdicates its responsibilities. Clearly it does not. It leaves the conductor behind. The conductor is just as qualified to perform that function as is the station agent. In addition, the Conductor is usually closer to the scene than is the station agent. The basic difference is that the TA way seems more inconvenient to you. So, in fairness, you'd have to admit that if the conductor & station agent are equally qualified then your concerns are more about your inconvenience than the welfare of the sick customer.
[re having conductors stay with off-train sick passengers]
[Let us back up a second, Peter. The problem is not that the TA abdicates its responsibilities. Clearly it does not. It leaves the conductor behind. The conductor is just as qualified to perform that function as is the station agent. In addition, the Conductor is usually closer to the scene than is the station agent. The basic difference is that the TA way seems more inconvenient to you. So, in fairness, you'd have to admit that if the conductor & station agent are equally qualified then your concerns are more about your inconvenience than the welfare of the sick customer.]
Well yes, my concerns are with the convenience of all the other riders. I thought that would be fairly evident. The welfare of the sick passenger really isn't at issue, as either the conductor or the station agent can do the job equally well. In other words, the sick passenger's welfare is being looked after, no matter what.
Clearly, having the conductor stay with the sick passenger would be preferable if, as you suggested, the conductor is closer to the scene.
[If a booth is robbed Transit does not pay- the Station Agent has to pay and will be interrogated by the police, face charges and
possible dismissal by transit, police search of your residence, drug test, etc.
We had to sign an agreement that any shortage in booth funds must be paid by the station agent.]
I find this unbelievable! Why would you sign such an agreement? It's reasonable to be held responsible for routine shortages or mistakes, but robbery?!! Don't you guys have a union, and why would it allow its members to sign something so clearly unfair?!
"(If we are over we send in the money and when verified they'll let us know and then we can deduct from a future remittance to Transit.)"
Am I reading this incorrectly? Does this mean that if a station agent is over by 50 bucks at the end of the shift, they send it in to Jay Street. Then if Jay Street verifies that they were indeed over the agent is free to skim $50 from the till at some future date?
Please tell me that I'm wrong.
Chuck
Talk about an incentive to short change the public! On the other hand, if they have to make up the shortages, . . . .
No ! IF a customer gets short changed we have to send in the change left behind. If we are over or under by $50 or more we face a biooth audit. Being over can also lead us to loose our job.
Let's say we give a customer change for a $10 when they actually gave us a $20. Now- the customer realizes it (at home or another station) and they call up and bingo- we have a customer complaint which alone could give us days in the street (suspension).
We are not thieves. 99.99% of us are very honest. I have done gate jobs and have trotted after customers who have left change behind. I have screamed through my booth mic to tell them pto pick up their change.
It usually takes about 6 months before a certain bag is opened and counted at Jay Street. IF they find we are short we add that amount to a deposit in another booth. Let's say I did %1825.50 and was short $12.00 six months ago. I would send in $1837.50- with a notation "remittance from prior shortage."
Now let's say I was over $5.00-- I would remit $1820.50 with a notation "deduction for prior overrage."
I resent the implied belief that we are thieves!
Interestingly, when I worked the streetcars, we had a $20 change fund. The fareboxes were Johnson Type D boxes. We kept a manifest that required start and stop times and farebox readings. The start reading came from the T-4 that the previous operator left in the farebox door.
When the run was finished, the farebox was unplugged (they were electric boxes and we called that pulling the box) and the readings were taken. One set went on a T-4 form that was left in the box door. The other went on the ending space for the run on the manifest. Once this was done, I would do the subtraction, that would show what was to be turned in.
(Some runs worked two or more cars, all those readings went on the same manifest. All the totals from the subtractions were then added to get the amounts due.)
I would first remove $20 from the bills collected and put it in my shirt pocket. That was my change fund for the next day. The money left should equal the total on the manifest. If it did, OK. Put in Turn-in bag, seal and turn in to Dispatcher. If not, recheck and see if mistake made. If no apparent mistake found, turn in. Two days later, check short/over list. If short, make up difference. If over, see Dispatcher for refund.
I NEVER was on the short/over list.
The fareboxes counted tokens, cash (nickels, dimes and pennies) and quarters. We carried a quarter conversion chart to convert the number of quarters to the money amount.
Oh, yes. We did this all without the electronic calculator. We never dreamed that would ever exist.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that the station agents were theives -- only that the system is set up so that they can be. If overages are refundable to the agent, whether through actual cash or through offsets against deficits, then the system is creating an incentive to skim.
This thing seems to go from the bizarre to the surreal, though. Are you saying that the TA sits on 6 months of receipts -- in cash -- without counting it or doing anything else with it?? Talk about cash flow mismanagement!!
If you assume 5% interest, that means that in any given year the TA is squandering 2.5% of revenue just by having bags of cash sitting in the TA basement.
Thanks for the clarification! I have been with thwem for over two years. Since then I have never been over but i have been short. Every month or so we get a statement from Revenue showing our "account balance" If this statement shows we have a shortgae then we must pay that amount to transit as soon as possible. There is a line on our paperwork "Remittance for prior shortage".
If you are over it is usally $1 or $2. You do not want to be over. SUpervision does do routine booth audits. it is just as bad if they find you over than if you are short- in fact over is worse because they think you shorttted a customer.
In any event- if you are off by $50.00 or more you must call for a booth audit and supervision calls Jay Street to let them you you are off by $50 or more.Not a pleasant thought! we can lose a job over out of balance funds.
Well what do you want for a buck fifty? To live forever?
05/11/2000
Pete Rosa,
One thing you haven't mentioned is when a station agent leaves the booth to aid the so called sick passenger, that the agent now becomes the victim and possibly a dead one. Now how do we explain this to the agents family? Better off in that bullet proof booth and follow those archaic orders. It's more than a few thousand bucks and some tokens. Booths have been robbed and agents have been victims before. Agents are people just like a sick passenger who takes ill.
Bill Newkirk
Really? What if this happened at Grand Central? West 4th St? Port Authority Bus Terminal? Massive lines to get Metrocards or tokens. Tiny inconvenience? I don't think so.
All of these stations have vending machines, maybe the people should finally learn how to use them.
Right. At a big station, there are often several clerks on duty in any case. It's only at a small station with only one clerk (who might fear being jumped if he leaves the booth) that you can understand this head-in-the-sand attitude.
Big stations...
Due to MVMs they have cut second person jobs even in the big stations.
Some big stations such as WTC on the E have one or more MVM station agents who help customers witrh the MVMs but even those Station Agents (S/A) are to answer to the person in the booth. IF there is someone outside the booth and there is a sick customer at their location sure they'll stay with the person but after telling the booth to hit the alarm and request EMS. Once the alarm is turned in Police will be the first responder. Upon arrival Police will call their dispatcher to request EMS. Station Supervisor is not far behind the police- often beating EMS.
Once we hit the alrm, we must notify Station COmmand when police, EMS, Fire responds, their badge number, District, EMS badge number, and where they took the customer (which hospital). Inb the case of an accident such as falling on the stairs we must fill out an accident investigation form and give it to supervision when they come.
HEY MR ROSA,
THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR IDEA IS THE SECURITY OF FUNDS IN THE TOKEN BOOTH. THIS IS THE ONE TIME THAT MTA ACTS LIKE THEY HAVE COMPASSION FOR THE HUMAN LIFE. THE CONDUCTOR STAYS, TRAIN OUT OF SERVICE, SORRY FOR THE DELAY WE SHOULD BE MOVING SHORTLY.
MIKE
There's no need to shout. In other words, please turn off your caps lock.
Corrections
There is no EMS anymore since 1996
Either you will get an Ambulance from a Voluntary
hospital or a FDNY Ambulance
You really do not want to move a pt,you can agravate
any condition they might have,,also giving liability
problems to the person moving the aided
you are right as usual Steve, but even Police in talking over their radio to thewir dispatcher will say " We need EMS. We have a... with ..." (Fill in race, gender, problem.)
[but even Police in talking over their radio to thewir dispatcher will say " We need EMS. We have a... with ..." (Fill in race, gender, problem.)]
Out of curiosity, why would the sick passenger's race be reported? That seems largely irrelevant under the circumstances. Approximate age would be a much more significant factor.
Identification. I've heard approximate age reported as well in other places (I've never been close enough to a problem in NYC to hear the communications).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(We transit workers are not authorized to MOVE a sick or injured customer, the individual can be asked If they can move to the station platform and if no other person ie: Police Officer, Platform Conductor or Train Service Supervisor is available to wait with the sick/injured customer till EMS arrives the train Conductor must wait with then
person and the train must now be discharged).
Depending on the sickness, perhaps this can be handled better. Sometimes the trains make people sick -- if they get motion sick, if the train is packed and hot. Those folks need to get off the train.
But let's say its a heart attack, stroke, or something like it. If the subway is on the way to a station near a hospital, it might be better just to keep going. There are lots of hospitals in proximity to subway stations, and the protocal could be mapped out. It takes EMS long enough to respond as it is. Add it communication from the train to the booth to EMS, and the need to get down the stairs, and it could take forever. Perhaps some kind of deal could be worked out in which hospital staff get called, scramble down to the platform and meet the train.
True, there are different levels of severity to being 'sick', but when a train is held up, a car isolated and emergency personnel called in because someone feels "queazy" or "feverish", that's a bit excessive!
I've been caught in delays caused by a passenger complaining of the symptoms mentioned above.
[True, there are different levels of severity to being 'sick', but when a train is held up, a car isolated and emergency personnel called in because someone feels "queazy" or "feverish", that's a bit excessive!
I've been caught in delays caused by a passenger complaining of the symptoms mentioned above.]
I'm getting tired of the MTA's cowardice concerning potential lawsuits. Look at how many people are delayed and what their time is worth to themselves and the businesses they work for. I would never suggest doing anything that actually endangered someone who is ill; but if all they're doing by holding up a train is protecting lawyers and bureacrats, f*** it.
[True, there are different levels of severity to being 'sick', but when a train is held up, a car isolated and emergency personnel called in because someone feels "queazy" or "feverish", that's a bit excessive!
I've been caught in delays caused by a passenger complaining of the symptoms mentioned above.]
I'm getting tired of the MTA's cowardice concerning potential lawsuits. Look at how many people are delayed and what their time is worth to themselves and the businesses they work for. I would never suggest doing anything that actually endangered someone who is ill; but if all they're doing by holding up a train is protecting lawyers and bureacrats, f*** it.
Hey, and while we're at it, anyone want to join me on a speaker-smashing expedition to that obnoxious escalator at 51st and Lex--the one that lectures you about strollers and such? It's even worse than the musicians.
In the case of the N at Queensboro, that was clearly an actual injury or illness.
However, on the busiest lines and/or at the busiest times of day, there's some chance that the "sick passenger" might really be an employee of Straphangers Campaign, pulling a "sick" in order to sabotage service.
If Straphangers issues a report or holds a press conference to complain about lousy service within 3 weeks after a string of "sick passengers" and BIEs, it's NOT a coincidence.
I agree that you might be right, however, in the absence of Police (who always respond first and verify need for EMS) or EMS we must assume actual illness or injury.
We do ask people who hold door, or interfere with other customers to leave the train/ system or we will call for police to remove them.
Let's say that a demonstration takes place. we'd just call police to remove them.
Delay lasted for 35 minutes. The customer expired during that time. I suppose that they could have had the body laying on the platform - after all, who cares?
They are not worth the effort to keep them alive
Another mindless moron for the kill file....
Hey. "Subway Crash", that passenger may be sick but you are a hell of a lot sicker, Please check into Creedmoor, SOON!!!
They are not worth the effort to keep them alive
That's sick.
Do elucidate. I'm sure many of us are interested in your conclusion.
--Mark
Both people have a point here, and should probably bring this up on a philosophy chat. This is more off-topic than my genetics post.
This is a policy that seems to be enforced selectively.
Back on a weekend in '92, I was robbed and roughed up by five or six teenage thugs on an uptown '5' between Brooklyn Bridge and Union Square. While trying to apply pressure to a nosebleed, I made my way to the conductor's car and told him what happened, and that he should blow the horn and hold the doors closed at the next stop. He callously replied that he had a schedule to keep and couldn't hold it up over one passenger. Naturally, when we reached Union Square, he opened the doors and the roving youths happily escaped.
I tried to get the train operator and the token clerk to call the police. Their responses were that I "should go chase them myself", and not to make a scene about this; there was a (Democratic) convention in town, and I'll give the city and subway a bad reputation.
After getting MYSELF to an E.R., I wrote the TA, the mayor, Straphangers and my councilman, among others. Only the TA responded, with a form letter thanking me for writing to the TA. When I mentioned this incident at a transit Forum at Queens Borough Hall, I was told I should have gotten the numbers of the lead car, conductor's badge, operator's badge, token booth and clerk's badge. Hardly a priority when you've just been physically and mentally ambushed.
Since then, every time there's a delay due to a 'sick passenger', this incident just sticks in my craw. When I see those advertising placards from the TA stating that "IF YOU ARE SICK, YOU WILL NOT BE LEFT ALONE", I think, "What if you're robbed?"
Of course, I can't help but think that if I were female, elderly, or stated I was a tourist, the response would have been much different. A physically large young male being robbed and assaulted doesn't seem to arouse any compassion.
P.S: Despite all this, I still enjoy riding the subway for fun.
Too bad They didn't try to rob Berhhard Goetz, then they would have gotten what they deserved.
B"H
Even better! Monday evening on the 2. Some fool pulls the cord as we were leavin atlantic ave southbound. Lucky for us the last few cars of the train were still by the platform, and since it was a set of redbirds, we were able to march out and catch a 3 on the express platform. what a genius move. this fool said there was a sick passenger in the second car. *why* he didn't pull the cord in the station or in the next one is beyond me. luckily i was on my way home and wasn't late for anything except dinner.
-yitz
This topic comes up every once in a while. I see the current policy as another example of the way the medical profession has usurped control of society.
The subways exist for the purpose of providing transportation. They are not waiting rooms for sick people to await medical aid. The chance that moving a sick passenger off a train and onto a platform will injure him/her is small. Not zero, but still small. The subways are primaily for healthy people. The risk that a rider who is healthy when boarding a train will both
(a) become so ill during the trip as to be unable to leave the train under his/her own power and
(b) have this illness/injury be of such a nature that being moved off the train (by staff trained in the safest way to do so) will result in significant further injury
is so small as to be utterly negligible for the average rider.
But in our litigous society, I guess even this negligible risk must be addressed. The state legislature should pass a law clearly stating that this tiny risk is one that subway riders must assume, and that transit workers will be immunized against lawsuits in such situations, provided they act in good faith with the minimum degree of intrusiveness to the sick/injured party necessary to keep the trains running.
Then these lengthy delays for "sick passengers" will end. People who are not in sufficiently good health to be willing to assume this extremely small risk probably shuld not be riding the trains in the first place. Paratransit services (Acess-A-Ride) are available to the handicapped. If it is not already, certainly having a condition which significantly increases the likelihood of a person becoming unconcious or unable to walk while riding public transit should be considered a handicap entitling a person to use paratransit.
I too am not fond of the medical establishment. Their voodoo medicine has killed quite a few members of my family.
All they want is your money and all they give you is lies!
'Sick passenger' can mean anything. A guy who just puked on the train is NOT a risk to be moved. Nor is someone feeling faint. Now, someone who HAS fallen, or is having a heart attack; THEY are at risk to move. Any basic first aid training will tell you that. Unfortunately, I can't remember it all, but the first thing to do with an injured person is to find out if it's a risk to YOU (life-wise, not liability-wise) before taking action.
-Hank
"People who are not in sufficiently good health to be willing to assume this extremely small risk probably shuld not be riding the trains in the first place. Paratransit services (Acess-A-Ride) are available to the handicapped."
Assuming the risk I can agree with. It's not the transit authority's fault that someone is ill, and so long as they respond reasonably to the emergency, there should be no question of a lawsuit. But the idea that sick people shouldn't ride the subway is absolutely bizarre!
Lots of people have general health conditions -- heart trouble, diabetes, epilepsy, etc. -- that *don't* manifest themselves most of the time but *could* strike anywhere. All these people should ride paratransit? If everyone with a bad heart had to forgo the subway and use dial-a-ride, there wouldn't be enough vans or taxis in the entire Northeast to carry them all! Sick isn't the same as handicapped, and paratransit is for people who cannot get around by subway, not every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a fluttery ticker!
I agree that if a person is feeling ill, they shouldn't get on the subway, and I agree that people who have previously felt ill due to the conditions on the subway (no bad jokes, please!) shouldn't ride either. But a lot of people who fall ill on the subway get on the train feeling healthy and with no history of medical problems on the subway before.
It would be a better thing if people with bad hearts or epilepsy drove?
I'll have to agree on this -- the risk of being delayed by a sick passenger is one we have to assume, like the risk of being stuck in traffic behind a car that breaks down. The latter happens more often than the former.
But how about this example, legal wise. It's a packed car, with the heat blasting, with a delay in service. After standing for a while, a pregnant woman keels over, and comes to feeling naseau, dizzyness, weakness, and shortness of breath. She cannot move herself off the train.
If a conductor asks if she'd like to be helped off the train, and she say's "yes," and he supports her as she moves off, is the TA assuming a big liability? How about if a passenger does it?
Is this something no one should do? Should everyone just watch as her heat prostation gets worse, for a half hour, until EMS arrives? Would a "good samaritan" not on the job be less liable than a "good samaritan" on the job, or does the person not on the job not have the deep pockets to be worth suing?
Some states have put in "Good Samaritan" laws to prevent lawsuits in this type of situation, but AFAIK, New York is not one of them.
Latham, Massachussetts has such a law.
That was the WORST episdoe of Seinfeld EVER
Last and least
I agree, it was forced and unfunny. But the law in that episode was more coercing than the ones I've heard of.
Jerry and his wild and wacky friends were arrested for not helping someone. The laws I've read about don't force people to help, but if you see a problem and happen to stop and render aid -- espcially if you're a physician -- you can't be sued by that person or their family later for alleged malpractice or contributing to the person's permanent disablity or death.
Obviously, the trial lawyers would not be big fans of this law.
What is an episdoe??
A typo, I believe. Pigs meant to say episode. It reminds me of an instructor I had in college who typed "himslef" while writing an opera synopsis. He caught his own mistake and put "(slef?)" after that. This was back in the Dark Ages when typewriters and ditto machines (remember the alocohol fumes?) were still the rule.
It's an episode that wishes to remain anonymous.
No no, that law is completely different. REAL good Samaritan laws protect non-professionals against lawsuits from the people they are helping. This was because people so were to afraid to help due to lawsuits they would often sit back and let the person die (or just leave).
Because the TA is too big a lawsuit target it must now be up to the passengers to make sure things run smoothly. If someone goes down sick on a train A) make sure nobody pulls the BIE handle and B) If the person is not bleeding and dosen't appear to have a head injury, when you get to the next station HAUL THEIR ASS OFF THE TRAIN. After all the floor of a subway car is not the best place to be for a sick person. There are all kinds of good semeritan laws to protect the help-er from lawsuits by the help-ee if the help-er is making a valid effort to help. After the sick passenger is no longer within the train you aleart the C/R or ticket agent. Besides you get to look like the hero as you rescue the victim from the coffin like subway car that was probably the reason the person was sick in the first place.
I don't understand why the "help-ee" would want to charge a "help-er(s)" if the "help-er(s)" were only trying to prevent them from further pain. Besides, how bad can the help-er's reputation go if they don't do something but just standing there and watch the woman die?
One thing I don't like about some of the people in this country is that all they care about is money. If something happens, lawsuit. If something else happens, lawsuit. Settlements may go to an absurd amount that not only may pay off medical bills, but also may pay for their children's education!
It used to be that if you pulled someone from like a burning car they could sue you for injuring them in the extraction process. As a result many people would run screaming from someone in need for fear of being sued. Most if not all states passed laws to protect simple people who are just trying to help in an emergency situation. This applies even if you do something stupid (unintentionally) like injure their spine or kill them in the act of trying to save them.
This country needs deplties of common sence. Before a case ever goes to court it is run past a deputy of common sence. If the lawsuit is frivilious the DoCS woulc order a bailiff to beat the plaintiff as to toughen them up so that maybe the next time they won't complain about "little" stuff.
It used to be that if you pulled someone from like a burning car they could sue you for injuring them in the extraction process. As a result many people would run screaming from someone in need for fear of being sued. Most if not all states passed laws to protect simple people who are just trying to help in an emergency situation. This applies even if you do something stupid (unintentionally) like injure their spine or kill them in the act of trying to save them.
This country needs deputies of common sence. Before a case ever goes to court it is run past a deputy of common sence. If the lawsuit is frivilious the DoCS woulc order a bailiff to beat the plaintiff as to toughen them up so that maybe the next time they won't complain about "little" stuff.
Perhaps you could be sued, in theory, for bruising someone while pulling them from a burning car. But the chances that the case would not be dismissed very quickly are very small.
Can anyone name a case where this actually happened? There is a lot of "lawsuit lore" that gets repeated here and many other places that I'm pretty skeptical about. No jury would give you money if you were accidentally injured by someone clearly trying to save your life.
I think the good samaritan law is a good idea. But lets not exaggerate too wildly!
There were examples where someone who was trying to help moved an injured person and caused spinal damage. If the person had been left alone and moved after their head and neck had been imobilized they would have been fine. I don't know the specific case names, but they did happen. Now in this case the rescuer sis a stupid thing, but if the victim was allowed to sue all non-professional rescuerswould think twice b4 preforming any action even if it was warrented. These laws help shift the focus from punishing stupid rescuers to educating the public to make smarter rescues.
Also, I forgot to mention that all the doors including the last car were closed, except for a brief moment when I saw the door nearest to the 9th car open, only to see it closed from my departing #7's view. That's why I mentioned those people were trapped inside. Perhaps if the workers had at least opened the doors to the last cars it can alleviate the situation from those not involved. And it seems kind of strange for the door nearest the 9th car on the last car to be temporarily opened, while the lady lies 3 feet across from the very very end car door of the last car, which was closed...... hmm.... unless it was used to prevent people from accidentally enter the "area" from the platform if the doors ever opened...
Guess I should read more about First-Aid.
9[ # # # # ]_10[ a # # b ]
(a): door seen temporarily opened, else all doors were closed
(b): where the sick lady was
at the RR crossing at 88st on the LIRR Lower Montauk branch I saw the stupidest act by a motorist I had ever seen. At 5:08 PM, he parked his car right at the crossing in a position which left the last foot of his car hang right over the rail. Not only did this put his car in danger of the 4:54 out of LIC, but it also forced the cars behind him to slow down and have to turn to go around him, prolonging their time on the crossing. I was walking over to warn him of the train, but the gates went down when I was too far away. He finally heard the horn, and moved about 6 seconds before the train flew threw the crossing. Another reason for more service. Less people would make the assumption of "I've driven across these tracks for months and have never seen a train".
Last month I made a concerted attempt to catch the 4:54 out of LIC so I could ride a double decker over the Montauk branch for the first time. Much to my chagrin, after leaving the LIC yard, the train beared left over the Borden Avenue crossing and crawled through Hunters Point to assume the mainline route to Jamaica.
When I inquired about this to a conductor, he (after rolling his eyes in the standard "Oh no, not another rail buff" expression) informed me that passenger service on the Montauk branch was permanently discontinued due to the closures of all local stations between LIC and Jamaica combined with the much more favorable running conditions along the main line- no crossings, concrete ties instead of wood, no more S-curves through Maspeth. He also stated that the inbound 8:11 to LIC would also be using the mainline permanently.
From what you've said, this conductor was either misinformed or pulling my leg. Apparently, the 4:54 still DOES use the original trackage, even with the local stops having closed. Thing is, how can I be sure which way the train will go on a given day? I don't want to invest in a peak ticket for nothing.
BTW, the actions of the motorist as you described them is common on much busier lines. I was riding shotgun at the front railfan window on a NJT diesel, Coast Line (back in '86 when they HAD front railfan windows), and we almost creamed a woman nudging her car under the gates at Middletown. SHE screamed bloody murder and vowed to sue the railroad for all it was worth.
Although I haven't ridden it lately I was on a Tri-Level that used the Montauk Branch from LIC last fall. Actually its not as much fun as it was on the old diesels as I automatically associate that route with old equipment, sort of like NYC's own Straussburg Railroad or Hooterville Cannonball!!!
[Last month I made a concerted attempt to catch the 4:54 out of LIC so I could ride a double decker over the Montauk branch for the first time. Much to my chagrin, after leaving the LIC yard, the train beared left over the Borden Avenue crossing and crawled through Hunters Point to assume the mainline route to Jamaica.
When I inquired about this to a conductor, he (after rolling his eyes in the standard "Oh no, not another rail buff" expression) informed me that passenger service on the Montauk branch was permanently discontinued due to the closures of all local stations between LIC and Jamaica combined with the much more favorable running conditions along the main line- no crossings, concrete ties instead of wood, no more S-curves through Maspeth. He also stated that the inbound 8:11 to LIC
would also be using the mainline permanently.
From what you've said, this conductor was either misinformed or pulling my leg. Apparently, the 4:54 still DOES use the original trackage, even with the local stops having closed.]
If there has been a change, it must be very recent. I took the 8:11 from Jamaica to Long Island City sometime in early April, can't remember the exact date, and it used the Montauk routing.
It also doesn't quite follow that that re-routing should be promoted by the closings of the local stations. Those stations were closed something like two years ago.
I took the 8:11
I took the 8:11 one day last week. We used the Montauk routing. As it was my first trip along that line, I had a few observations/questions:
- We've often noted here that there are only 2 electrified grade crossings in NYC, Little Neck Parkway and Borden Avenue. But just west of Borden Avenue, there is another crossing (with gates and lights) for what appears to be 11th Street. Is this a third crossing, or is the crossing on LIRR property and thus "not public"?
- There was also some discussion that the high-level platform at LIC cannot be serviced by the LIRR's MUs as it does not have a third rail. From what I saw, it looked like the track on the north side of the platform is not electrified, but the south side track had a third rail (at least it had one going as far west as to where my train blocked it's view).
Chuck
For the most part the LIC direct trains usually use the lower Montauk branch. I saw it again today. I have also ridden it all last week since I had purchased a weekly to ride bilevels in and out of Penn during the Ronkonkoma line diversion. They have to keep service on the lower Montauk running for a good long while anyway, even if it is minimal. When they finally decide to rehab Hunterspoint in ten years or so, they would divert service through there. Also, the next Main Line Track rehabilitation in 50 years would require reroutes through there, like the more recent one did.
It seems many motorists don't really know how to drive safely and I've seen it many times. I don't know how those people got their licenses (or lack thereof), but their driving ability was so horrible. The last time I saw another such stupidity was just last week at the busy Manhattan Lexington & 14th St intersection. Just when the light about to turn yellow, this yellow taxi driver tried to beat it and wound up blocking the intersection (the box). To add more fuel to the fire, 2 police cars with blaring sirens couldn't get through also because of this yellow taxi guy. Not to mention since it's NY, I heard enough profanities & horn honking than I've ever heard in awhile.
Lexington Avenue and 14th Street don't meet; Lex runs uptown from East 21st Street. You might mean where Union Square East, 4th Avenue and East 14th Street meet. That is a very troublesome intersection, as downtown Broadway traffic is forced to combine with downtown Union Square East traffic at 17th Street, and then separate again at 14th. The nearby convergence of Union Square West and University Place don't help either.
On rare occasions when I do drive into such congestion, I try to resist driving into the intersection until it's clear I won't be blocking it. For my troubles, I'm usually cursed and honked to the heavens. (People behind me have actually gotten out of their vehicles and threatened me in front of my wife and son!)
Block the intersection and risk getting a ticket. Don't block the intersection and risk verbal, or physical, abuse. A great advertisement for using mass transit.
Union Square's actually way better than the way it used to be when Broadway was two-way north of 17th Street. Back then, the parking area on the west side of Union Square was for uptown through traffic, and traffic had to be set at 17th street to allow it to go north, while the downtown traffic still had the split between Broadway going south or Union Square West/University Place. (That was also the time when buses wrong-wayed at the traffic island on Broadway next to the Flatiron Building, when the island served as a starting point for some of the M-4 buses headed uptown on Fifth Ave. when it was two-way. A mess all around)
They still have at-grade railroad crossings in New York City?
[They still have at-grade railroad crossings in New York City?]
There are some on the lightly used Lower Montauk line that runs between Jamaica and Long Island City, which is where the incident in the original posting occurred. There also are a few on freight spurs in Queens and Brooklyn. There is at least one on Staten Island, but it won't become active unless and until the Arthur Kill lift bridge is reopened. I don't believe there are any in the Bronx.
Only two grade crossings on electrified lines (both LIRR) still exist within city limits: Borden Avenue, on the connecting track between Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City, and Little Neck Parkway, on the Port Washington line.
Of course in the Bush Terminal area of Sunset Park the street trackage is used primarily by New York Cross Habor RR and sporadically by the NYCT's South Brooklyn Railway.
Since the area is strictly-heavily industrial, there are very few RR Crossing signs at intersections. Your car's suspension will remind you know you're riding on RR tracks!
Doug aka BMTman
Some years ago, I was riding my bike past the crossing by New Hyde Park station, when some thuggy looking teenage kids flagged me down. Between snickers, they claimed that their dog, who was casually lounging on the grass next to the ROW, had just been hit by the train that had just passed. (An M-1 had just flown by at about 65MPH on its way to Mineola.)
I wanted to say that if their dog had been hit by a train going that speed, it wouldn't be laying there in one piece licking itself. But I thought the better of it and promised I'd get a policeman.
I didn't.
These suburban kids obviously have nothing better to do. Once at the Atlantic Avenue crossing adjacent to East Rockaway station, the gates were coming down. Two teenagers were shouting to all the braking motorists, "It's broken- no train's coming! Go on through!"
A second later, a westbound train came roaring in.
[Some years ago, I was riding my bike past the crossing by New Hyde Park station, when some thuggy looking teenage kids flagged me down. Between snickers, they claimed that their dog, who was casually lounging on the grass next to the ROW, had just been hit by the train that had just passed. (An M-1 had just flown by at about 65MPH on its way to Mineola.)]
What did they expect you to do?
What DID they expect me to do? Probably come over to offer assistance so they could take my bike and/or my wallet, possibly using the dog for intimidation.
I'll stop to help someone who's lost and needs directions. But if someone rolls up in a car with some horror story about losing all their money and being out of gas, all I'll do is direct them to the nearest police station. I'll offer the same service to anyone hanging out in front of a bank ATM claiming they lost their card and need money to get home right away.
It doesn't take long to tell when someone's trying to pull a fast one, especially when it's teenagers giving you what's obviously a line of bull.
[...all I'll do is direct them to the nearest police station.]
Good idea!
05/10/2000
This morning I traveled into New York leaving from the LIRR Hicksville station. I saw a sight that I believed was only seen in New York City, THE METRO CARD VAN!
Is this the same Metrocard van that tours the 5 boros or is this one assigned to Nassau County?
BTW-As a Metrocard collector, I saw taped to the window the new Continental Airlines and Board of Education Metrocards. I had a "plain Jane" MC with $7.50 on it. I requested to the lady inside I would like the Contiental Airlines card and please transfer the value on my old card to that one. The lady stated two times that this could not be done unless there was something wrong with my old card. i kept my cool knowing station agents on the subway did this with no questions asked. She gave up and complied with my request and thanked her yet recieved no "you're welcome".
Was she wrong ??
Bill Newkirk
Yes, Bill, she was being stubborn (or perhaps she was new and did not know all the details of MC rules & regs).
BTW, just today I was planning on trading TWO Plain Jane cards (each w/$3.00 on them) for two of the new Bd of Ed cards at Lawernce St on the N/R. The agent accpeted my cards for trade. HOWEVER, although there were no questions asked, I was alittle pissed that I did not get an "even trade": the fare-control agent gave me ONE Bd of Ed card w/$6.00 value and not TWO w/$3.00 values. I guess it's an arbitrary in the way you get your card and values assigned?
Doug aka BMTman
The MetroCard Van was at Rockville Centre a few weeks ago. It was the first sighting I'd had of it outside NYC.
Chuck
That is most UNUSUAL, since the MTA fliers that list the locations where the MetroCard Bus and Van visit DO NOT list any spots outside of the five boroughs.
This must be some new strategy of the MC Marketing Division.
Doug aka BMTman
[That is most UNUSUAL, since the MTA fliers that list the locations where the MetroCard Bus and Van visit DO NOT list any spots outside of the five boroughs.
This must be some new strategy of the MC Marketing Division.]
I can't figure out the point behind the new strategy. Most if not all LIRR ticket windows already sell $3 and $15 prepackaged MetroCards. Bringing the van out into Nassau doesn't seem to serve any additional purpose.
"I can't figure out the point behind the new strategy. Most if not all LIRR ticket windows already sell $3 and $15 prepackaged
MetroCards. Bringing the van out into Nassau doesn't seem to serve any additional purpose."
There wasn't an awful lot of business being conducted at the van. Most LIRR commuters already have a Metrocard (either through the Mail-n-ride program or just purchased at their subway station), and the random nature of Van sightings with no advance publicity isn't going to change that. They'd be better off parking the Van near some of the major Long Island bus transfer points that aren't LIRR stations.
Chuck
Maybe they park at stations that don't have ticket agents midday for people who use Long Island Bus or want to get metrocards without the lines at Penn Station.
The Rockville Centre sighting was at about 8AM. Other than LIRR commuters, the train station there isn't a big destination or transfer point for LI Bus riders. The more logical spot would seem to be a few blocks away where the north/south lines meet the Jamaica-Freeport bus.
Chuck
Just thought our fellow SubTalkers should know that track inspectors have found dangerous conditions in heypaul's apartment. First of all, they found the continuous rail that had been laid out in his living room is NOT continuous after all. Then, to make matters worse, fare control had found that a number of unsavory types had entered heypaul's residence w/o first swiping their MetroCards at the front door.
The Skeptic Society has formed a coalition with the Transit Proctologist and Jockey Foundation . They are in conference at an undisclosed location, to look into his past and determine who is supporting him and whats behind him!They wish to avoid any scandles similar to what the other candidates are currently going through.
the coalition will uncover no dirt in my background...
they would be better off examining their own undergarments for soiling... although that might be beyond their ability for self reflection...
Did they notice that the brake stand and controller are set up BMT-style?:-)
Hey does HeyPaul's train dump if you let go of the Deadman's with the key in foward??
Did that by mistake in Brandford.. hehe....
Yeah, except the tenants living beneath him are the ones who get "dumped on" when that happens.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Rim shot!!
As a matter of fact, heypaul's CC tape does include a dump sound when the train reaches its terminus.
http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=subway&c=news_photos
Question why are german subway workers not afraid of strike but new york transit were afraid?
Trams return to London streets yesterday for the first time since 1952. This is a light rail system designed to link an extremely important business area (Croydon - on the Southern outskirts of London) with various areas poorly linked to it. It is not particularly designed to link into the Underground but has excellent links with the South London railways. Most of the lines are conversions from heavy rail.
Anyway, the line to new Addington is open, fares were free yesterday, and people turned out in droves to try it. Rather than ramble on, here is a particularly useful link for those who are curious:
http://website.lineone.net/~dodosjp/index.html
Are those Kinkisharyo trams? They sure look like it.
Wayne
The Croydon cars are Bombardier manufacture, but as I posted before, I suspect Kinki and Bom. shared the plans or jointly designed them since the Croydon cars are nearly identical to the HBLR cars...
-Dave
When the #5 resumes Manhattan bound service from Brooklyn for the PM rush, where are these trains originating from? (That is, those that head out before any southbound trains arrive.) The schedule posted on the MTA site notes that some of these trains originate from Utica Ave rather than Flatbush. I looked at Pete Dougherty's track maps and there does indeed seem to be layup tracks (tracks 2, 3, and M) beyond Utica Ave station. Do any #5 trains layup there between the AM and PM rush? What is the capacity?
And speaking of layups. How do train operators get to some of these locations? Do they have to walk through the tunnels?
Thanks for any info.
Bill J
Many AM #5 trains run out to Utica or New Lots and lay up in the Livonia yard until the PM rush starts. It's these trains that are probably used for early #5 service from Brooklyn, before the #5's coming in from Manhattan start arriving at Flatbush.
B"H
I've seen 5's laid up in the tunnel east of atlantic ave. Can't remember exactly when, but at the time I thought it was odd. How would the TO get to the train? :)
They are not my family or friends. I once thought different many years ago and thought I was supposed to treat them with respect until I was taught very painfully that the prime directive is KILL THE PASSENGERS. Email me if you want some of the stories
(Email me if you want some of the stories )
How about if I don't? Please keep your handle the same so the Killfile works.
I heard on the TA radio of a movement of R142 from Linden Yard 5 cars to be exact any other info?? could remember whats TSSs were on board for the move..
I was told the train came from Pitkin Yard. It was the R142A Kaw.
What procedures does the NYCTA have for retirement of cars when new equipment is arriving? Are the old cars pulled from service on a one-for-one (or trainset-for-trainset) basis as the new ones arrive? Are the old cars kept in storage for a certain period of time? I assume that with the limited amount of yard space it would be impossible to keep, say, 600 cars around when an order for 600 new ones is completed.
Also, I assume the condition of the old cars is taken into account when deciding which units are retired first.
Thanks for the info.
I assume that with the limited amount of yard space it would be impossible to keep, say, 600 cars around when an order for 600
new ones is completed.
I will venture to guess that we may temporarily see trains of redbirds lined up on middle tracks of Els awaiting disposition if they can't be moved off the property fast enough.
--Mark
Friends;
These are the last few weeks I will be spending as a conductor. I love the Brighton line and work there regularly despite the fact that I live in Kew Gardens. Should any of you wish to join me for a trip or two let me know. Maybe we can have a subtalk fan trip.
Erik
I ride it every day, live at Kings Highway. Let me know the trips your on via email and I'll look ya up. I've ridden this line since I was in diapers, I live the same apartment building my Father was born in. From R9's to R68A's >G<..... Never got on the 110 though.
It's too bad you guys won't be around in August when I'm in New York so I can touch base with you and, yes, even ride the Brighton.
Don t tell Fred I rode his Graffiti Beach Train when I was in NYC 2 weeks ago from Boro Hall to Coney Island. Very slow on express between 59 and 36. Left the same time at 36th as the R, and got to 59th the same time, and that was the Exp. Outside all Graffiti on the walls, and junk. I sent him a N T Shirt, and I received a complaint from his wife, that in two weeks he has not taken it off. (only kidding about the T Shirt)
I heard you Bob, ol' buddy. And you are right about my wife. She wants that shirt in the machine and I just complied. And thanks, I love that shirt. You know what? Some of those stoops out here have not clue to what the shirt signifies. I've been asked only twice as to the significance of the N. But I'll educate them.
Don't feel bad about your shirt. Think of it as a conversation starter. I've been stopped many times by people inquiring about my license plates, and only one person has ever figured out what they mean.
As I said Steve, we have to educate them. And we will, won't we?
As I told you on the phone. Say Nurd, Nice, etc. By the way your tickets have been ordered, and You should get them in 7-10 business days
You were Mahvalus, Bob, simply Mahvalus. But I don't think anyone on this site knows what the hell I'm talking about.
Neither do I
Lou, where on Kings Hwy Do you live? I used to live at 2301 Kings Hwy
I used to live on East 35th Street just off Kings Highway (at the traffic circle / rotary / roundabout / source of confusion).
--Mark
It's called Fraser SQUARE.
At least the buildings around it are arranged in a square, Bartel Pritchard Square is not even a square at all!
Bartel Pritchard Square (15th Street at PPW and PPSW) is a roundabout.
wayne
I didn't say it wasn't.
Hey, Mark I think I have the name of the Brooklyn neighborhood you lived in (I recall a posting awhile back where you weren't sure what your area was called). It's called Greenfield or South Greenfield, according to old Kings County map lingo. You're too south for Midwood, but too north for Marine Park. I'm pretty certain that's what it was called. Paul Matus might be able to help here.
Doug aka BMTman
Erik,
Why are you leaving the conductor's job? What are you going to do now?
Reply from Erik:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyle;
After all this time I have decided to accept the promotion for Motorman.
Nothing sinister.
I have many examples but let me give you just one. I was once a very gung ho employee when i started working at new york transit. I received numerous commendations which is virtually impossible in new york transit. After i was assaulted in line of duty transit refused to pay me compensation. I went to workers compensation and won my case. Then transit appealed that my commendations were really violations and had my docter seen them he would have agreed. Workers compensation agreed and with out having transit explain why they did not present my so called violations to my doctor totally dismissed my case. All my hard work for the people of new york ruled to be violations. I even spoke to Governor Pataki but the state couldnt afford 20,000 for my compensation. However Pataki can supply MTA with billions to build a second avenue subway
[I even spoke to Governor Pataki but the state couldnt afford 20,000 for
my compensation. However Pataki can supply MTA with billions to build a
second avenue subway.]
Change that to: However, Patake can supply the MTA with millions to get some group of people with a degree in college (where who knows what they did, but I'd highly doubt it was studying) to study the second avenue subway, when they really know less about transit than the people with less formal education who spend their days by the railfan window. He's never going to build.
Thursday May 11, 9:33 am Eastern Time
Company Press Release
IBM Introduces World's Fastest 6-Way Web Server
Rack-Mounted RS/6000 H80 Speeds Midrange E-Business
SOMERS, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 11, 2000--IBM today introduced the world's fastest 6-way Web server - the RS/6000 H80 -- a rack-mounted dynamo that uses copper microprocessors to speed e-business on the Web.
In independent testing on the SPECWeb99 benchmark(a), a 6-way RS/6000 H80 running Zeus Web server software supported 2200 simultaneous connections, 22 percent better than the 1800 connections handled by the nearest competitor, an AlphaServer ES40 from Compaq Computer Corp. Designed to predict real-world Web server performance, SPECWeb99 simulates a server that supports multiple Web home pages with rotating advertisements, customized page creation, user registration and other dynamic operations.
``Today's e-businesses require servers that can scale and provide power when demand skyrockets,'' said Rod Adkins, general manager, IBM Web Servers. ``The RS/6000 H80 server provides rack and stack firepower for the mission-critical needs of customers ranging from dot.coms to large corporate data centers.''
Offered in a rack-mounted design for easy installation, the H80 is an ideal machine for Internet server farms, where systems are stacked to conserve floor space. The H80 also includes mainframe-class reliability, availability and serviceability features implemented for the first time in a midrange UNIX machine. These features, which help ensure round-the-clock peak performance include:
- Hot-plug PCI for uninterrupted growth; - Redundant Hot-plug fans and power to improve availability; - Hot-swappable disk drives to help manage unexpected growth; - Dynamic CPU Deallocation to isolate potential processor problems
and keep applications running; - Service processor to monitor vital signs and keep system running.
Copper Power
The H80's performance is fueled by RS64 III microprocessors containing copper wire. Pioneered by IBM researchers, copper microprocessor technology adds immense value. Smaller, denser, faster and cooler than their aluminum counterparts, copper chips are also more reliable and less expensive to manufacture. With today's announcement of the new midrange H80, M80 and F80 models, IBM's RS/6000 server line becomes the first in the industry to be completely powered by copper chips.
About RS/6000
More than 1,000,000 IBM RS/6000 systems have been shipped to over 150,000 commercial and technical customers around the world. The RS/6000 family of computers feature IBM RISC-based microprocessors and run AIX, IBM's UNIX operating system. RS/6000 products range in size and capacity from workstations, workgroup and enterprise servers, to the RS/6000 SP supercomputer. From businesses deploying advanced technologies to become more efficient and profitable, to governments and universities seeking to solve the grand challenge problems of our time, RS/6000 computers support a wide range of applications and provide the reliability, availability and price/performance that today's information technology managers demand. For more information about RS/6000 systems and the AIX operating system, see the RS/6000 home page at http://www.rs6000.ibm.com.
(a) For more information on SPECweb99, see http://www.spec.org
[Thursday May 11, 9:33 am Eastern Time
Company Press Release
IBM Introduces World's Fastest 6-Way Web Server
Rack-Mounted RS/6000 H80 Speeds Midrange E-Business
SOMERS, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 11, 2000--IBM today introduced the world's fastest 6-way Web server - the RS/6000 H80 -- a rack-mounted dynamo that uses copper microprocessors to speed e-business on the Web.]
I guarantee you that Dave will be eager to put SubTalk on this server, if you are so kind as to give him the money to buy one. Is your check in the mail yet?
Since all robert does is copy other stuff to post here, that many times has no bearing on the general SubTalk subjects and spew trash, then this is more of the same. The check in the mail (Which, if the post is true should be in the full amount of the new server.) will be one of the standard lies of all time.
That's gotta help my IBM stock.
last night i was clipping my toenails when it occurred to me that boston is a very compact city. about how far in miles does the T radiate out to from the center? how far do the longest lines of the commuter rail go out to? the riverside "D" green line seems to go out farther than the Needham heights commuter line. i want to compare the lengths of boston's lines compared to atlanta's proposed commuter lines, which would go from atlanta to athens, and another line to macon. the distance from atlanta to athens is around 60-70 miles and from atlanta to macon is around 80-90 miles.
Good questions, Rob!
Here's a Commuter Rail Map from Boston.
There are a number of lines which run 40-50 miles from Boston. Namely, on the north side, Rockport and Newburyport. On the south side, Providence and Worcester (even though Worcester is west of Boston, its line terminates at South Station). To put things in perspective, our "inner beltway," Route 128, is where the D/Riverside trolley terminates. This is Zone 2 on the commuter rail lines which cross Route 128. Providence and Worcester are Zone 9 stations.
The aforementioned MBTA Web site has all of the schedule, fare, and station information.
I went down to the "out of service" canal street station to take a roll of pics. It was around 90 degrees that day. It was last Sunday.
Down at the station, I noticed that the new tilework is up, the Brooklyn bound platform and track look like new. The other side still looks like hell with small waterfalls flowing down.
The strange thing is that the station seems a bit on the cold side.
It had to be at least 30 dregrees cooler that street level.
I could see my own breath! Is it under the watertable cause it sure seems like a good place to "chill out" if your not afraid of being alone in a station.
-About the temperature, it was the same at Olney Station on the Broad Street Line. But, wait until September, when it gets to be about 105° in the smaller Market Frankforld tunnels.
They haven't sealed all the leaks yet - the rehabbed side they've taken care of (well, they're trying - looks like they used pool paint on the ceiling) but the other side is still hurting.
wayne
Up on the street, it looks like they're digging around in a number of places. I hope that some of this is also aimed at dealing with the water problems. There are quite a few water spots on the new platform pavers.
They don't call it Canal St. for nothing.:-)
Next project: Chambers St.
On one of those hot days, not only was it cool, but the walls and floors were soaked with dew, almost as if it was still leaking.
Yesterday, I reported that the R-44/46 electronic side signs have 1,089 readings. I should have mentioned that the Eastern Division (Canarsie, Broadway-Jamaica, and Myrtle Avenue Lines) isn't on the signs. The Nassau Street Line is on the signs, however.
David
The list I have has 1,042 messages including the two diagnostic/test messages. I also have the original software and message file.
Once I saw a 4-car train of R46 cars on their way to Jamaica Yard. The sign said:
] ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
No kidding! The sign was full of right square brackets!
Was that part of the test message?
Do you have available copies ??
Steve
FDNY
Nope...sorry.
David
Hi
I have a list that has 1087 Readings from 1998
including things like
V Jamaica Center via 6 Av
W Jamiaca center via BROADWAY
T TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
T QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
V TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON EXP
V TO CONEY ISLAND VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON LOCAL
W TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON EXP
W TO CONEY ISLAND VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON LOCAL
T TO 57 ST/ 7 AV VIA BROADWAY
W TO 57 ST/7 AV
W TO 34 ST /BWAY
W TO CANAL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
W TO ITY HALL BROADWAY LOCAL
W TO WHITEHALL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
V TO 2 AV/MANHTN 6 AV LOCAL
V TO SMITH - 9 ST 6 AV LOCAL
V TO CHURCH AV 6 AV/ULVER LOCAL
V TO CHURCH AV 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESS
V TO KINGS HIGHWAY 6 AV CULVER LCL
V TO KINGS HIGHTWAY 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESS
V TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV/CULVER LCL
V TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV LOCAL CULVER EXPRESSS
T TO ESSEX /DELANCEY VIA NASSAU ST
T TO CHAMBERS ST VIA NASSAU ST
V TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
V 71 /CONTINENTAL VIA 6 AV
W TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA BROADWAY
W 71/CONTINTAL VIA BROADWAY
W TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LINE VIA SEA BEACH
T TO BAY PARKWAY WEST END LINE
T TO CONEY ISLAND WEST END LINE
W TO BAY PARKWAY BROADWAY LINE VIA WEST END
W TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LINE VIA WEST END
W TI 95 ST/BKLYN VIA BROADWAY 4 AV LOCAL
V TO 34 ST/ 6 AV VIA 6 A
V TO WEST 4 ST VIA 6 AV
V BWAY -LAFAYETTE VIA 6 AV
V TO GRAND ST VIA 6 AV
T TO 21 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
T TO 21 ST/QUEENS VIA BROADWAY
T TO 57 ST/6 AV VIA 6 AV
V TO 21 ST /QUEENS 6 AV LINE
V TO 57 ST/6 AV 6 AV LINE
W TO 2 ST /QUEENS BROADWAY
X TO 21 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
X WORLD TRADE CTR VIA 6 AV
T TO 207 ST/MANHTN VIA 6 AV
T TO 168 ST /MANHATN VIA 6 AV
V TO 145 ST/MANHTN 6 AV LINE
V 59 ST /COL CIRC 6 AV LINE
V WORLD TRADE CTR 6 AV LINE
T
U
V
V 6 AV
W
W BROADWAY
X
Y
Z
WALK THRU TRAIN
EXPRESS
LOCAL
SKIP-STOP
LONG ISLAND RR
METRO - NORTH RR
NYCTA
AND ALL THE K SIGNS
PLUS S SIGNS
AND ALL OF THE USUAL SIGNS
STEVE
WALK THRU TRAIN? What is that?
It's when they couple a bunch of trains between stations and have you walk between them.
I printed some of the list ,from the actual typed listing,,about 1087 readings
Steve
05/12/2000
A walk through train is usually parked on a double island platform, on the express track with all doors open. It really goes nowhere, just acts like a walk thru for passengers to get from one platform to the next without using the stairs/
I witnessed this at 61st St-Woodside on the #7 Flushing Line several years ago, don't remember why they were doing this back then.
Bill Newkirk
It's also done at Main Street, a 3-track terminal station with 2 island platforms. You know, when a train just left Track 1 and the next train is on Track 2 or vice versa. Saves a lot of walking and climbing/descending stairs.
That's probably the same list I have. The total is only off by 2, indicating the possibility that somebody miscounted.
David
Question: Do you have the list that shows the ODK entry codes? Or do you have the list with the various lines of text?
why do they have Metro North and LIRR? is that so they can run there as a just in case???
I thought I saw " LONG ISLAND RR" on one of those signs on an A train. Strangest thing is, that I saw it at 34th Street!
Now the only letters not in the subway alphabet are I and O ("eye" and "oh").
What? No "Z JAMAICA CENTER"? Guess they just weren't made for that line.
Remember, the 75-footers cannot run on the Jamaica line because of clearance problems on the curves between Crescent St. and Cypress Hills.
Of course.
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS LOCAL
E WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
F TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS LOCAL
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS EXPRESSS
B TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
B BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F TO 179 ST /QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
TO KINGS HIGHWAY 6 AV/CULVER LCL
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
Q BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F TO 179 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS EXPRESS
F TO 47-50 /6 AV 6 AV LOCAL
Q TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G TO SMITH -9 STS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO CHIRCH ST CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO COURT SQUARE CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO QUEENS PLAZA CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G 71/CONTINENTAL CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A TO 207 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
A TO 207 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
A TO 168 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
PAGE TWO OF 42
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON EXP
R TO 95 ST/BKLYN BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO WHITEHALL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO CANAL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO 34 ST/6 A VIA 6 AV
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON LCL
R TO 36 ST /BKLYN SHUTTLE
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV /FULTON EXP
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS BROADWAY LOCAL
R 71/CONTINENTAL BROADWAY LOCAL
A TOLEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV/FULTON LCL
C TO BEDFORD PARK 8 AV LOCAL
C TO 145 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
C TO ROCKAWAY PK 8 AV /FULTON LCL
C TO EUCLID AV 8 AV /.FULTON LCL
C WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
H TO EUCLID AV VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H TO BROAD CHANNEL SHUTTLE
H TO EUCLID AV SHUTTLE
H TO FAR ROCKAWAY VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
THIS IS THE BEGINNING FOR A LONG TERM SERIES I WILL BE DOING
IF YOU ARE INTERESTED
STEVE
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS LOCAL
E WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
F TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS LOCAL
E JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS EXPRESSS
B TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
B BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F TO 179 ST /QUEENS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
TO KINGS HIGHWAY 6 AV/CULVER LCL
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS VIA 6 AV
Q BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F TO 179 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL QUEENS EXPRESS
F TO 47-50 /6 AV 6 AV LOCAL
Q TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G TO SMITH -9 STS CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO CHIRCH ST CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO COURT SQUARE CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G TO QUEENS PLAZA CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G 71/CONTINENTAL CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A TO 207 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
A TO 207 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
A TO 168 ST/MANHTN 8 AV EXPRESS
PAGE TWO OF 42
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON EXP
R TO 95 ST/BKLYN BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO WHITEHALL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO CANAL ST BROADWAY LOCAL
R TO 34 ST/6 A VIA 6 AV
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
A TO FAR ROCKAWAY 8 AV /FULTON LCL
R TO 36 ST /BKLYN SHUTTLE
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV /FULTON EXP
A TO LEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV EXPRESS FULTON ST LOCAL
R TO 179 ST /QUEENS BROADWAY LOCAL
R 71/CONTINENTAL BROADWAY LOCAL
A TOLEFFERTS BLVD 8 AV/FULTON LCL
C TO BEDFORD PARK 8 AV LOCAL
C TO 145 ST /MANHTN 8 AV LOCAL
C TO ROCKAWAY PK 8 AV /FULTON LCL
C TO EUCLID AV 8 AV /.FULTON LCL
C WORLD TRADE CTR 8 AV LOCAL
H TO EUCLID AV VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H TO BROAD CHANNEL SHUTTLE
H TO EUCLID AV SHUTTLE
H TO FAR ROCKAWAY VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
THIS IS THE BEGINNING FOR A LONG TERM SERIES I WILL BE DOING
IF YOU ARE INTERESTED
STEVE
I took the liberty of editing this list and putting it in a nice, neat table.
For reasons unknown at this time, you have to scroll down all the way to the bottom to see the table.
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS LOCAL
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESSS
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
B
BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
F
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
6 AV/CULVER LCL
R
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
VIA 6 AV
Q
BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R
TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
TO 47-50 /6 AV
6 AV LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G
TO SMITH -9 STS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO CHIRCH AV
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO COURT SQUARE
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO QUEENS PLAZA
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
71/CONTINENTAL
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
A
TO 168 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON EXP
R
TO 95 ST/BKLYN
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO WHITEHALL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO CANAL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO 34 ST/6 AV
VIA 6 AV
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON LCL
R
TO 36 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON EXP
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
R
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
71/CONTINENTAL
BROADWAY LOCAL
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO BEDFORD PARK
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO 145 ST /MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO ROCKAWAY PK
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO EUCLID AV
8 AV/.FULTON LCL
C
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
H
TO EUCLID AV
VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H
TO BROAD CHANNEL
SHUTTLE
H
TO EUCLID AV
SHUTTLE
H
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H
TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR
ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
Because every carriage return you have becomes a BR tag
These are all placed by the browser BEFORE the table.
That's why you should have written the table only with natural carriage returns.
I hope this works:
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS LOCAL
E
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS LOCAL
E
JAMAICA CENTER
QUEENS EXPRESSS
B
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
B
BWAY - LAFAYETTE
F
TO CONEY ISLAND
6 AV/CULVER LOCAL
F
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
F
TO KINGS HIGHWAY
6 AV/CULVER LCL
R
TO 179 ST /QUEENS
VIA 6 AV
Q
BWAY -LAFAYETTE
R
TO 95 ST /BKLYN
SPECIAL
F
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
QUEENS EXPRESS
F
TO 47-50 /6 AV
6 AV LOCAL
Q
TO 21 ST/QUEENS
6 AV LOCAL
SHUTTLE
G
TO SMITH -9 STS
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO CHIRCH AV
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO COURT SQUARE
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
TO QUEENS PLAZA
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
G
71/CONTINENTAL
CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO 207 ST/MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
A
TO 168 ST/MANHTN
8 AV EXPRESS
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON EXP
R
TO 95 ST/BKLYN
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO WHITEHALL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO CANAL ST
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
TO 34 ST/6 AV
VIA 6 AV
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
A
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
8 AV/FULTON LCL
R
TO 36 ST/BKLYN
SHUTTLE
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON EXP
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV EXPRESS
FULTON ST LOCAL
R
TO 179 ST/QUEENS
BROADWAY LOCAL
R
71/CONTINENTAL
BROADWAY LOCAL
A
TO LEFFERTS BLVD
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO BEDFORD PARK
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO 145 ST /MANHTN
8 AV LOCAL
C
TO ROCKAWAY PK
8 AV/FULTON LCL
C
TO EUCLID AV
8 AV/.FULTON LCL
C
WORLD TRADE CTR
8 AV LOCAL
H
TO EUCLID AV
VIA FAR ROCKAWAY
H
TO BROAD CHANNEL
SHUTTLE
H
TO EUCLID AV
SHUTTLE
H
TO FAR ROCKAWAY
VIA ROCKAWAY PK
H
TO ROCKAWAY PK
LISTEN FOR
ANNOUNCEMENT
NOT IN SERVICE
LAST STOP
I am going to start posting ALL the signs ,
Please note that I am using the listing with the Codes,,
Code Number Reading #1 Reading @2 reading #3
I will not be giving out the codes,for obvious reasons
,I have been using the same format for the Buses,,again ,no codes
I am going to start posting ALL the signs ,
Please note that I am using the listing with the
Codes,,
Code Number Reading #1 Reading @2 reading #3
I will not be giving out the codes,for obvious
reasons
,I have been using the same format for the
Buses,,again ,no codes
Who needs codes when you can make up your own? Here's my system:
Numbers less than 100: P/R messages ("Not in service," "Last Stop," etc)
100's: A line messages
200's: B line messages
...and so on through the alphabet...
2600's Z line messages
2700-3099: Messages for terminals without lines
3100's: 1 line messages
3200's: 2 line messages
...and so on through the numbers...
B to 168 st /manhtn 6 av express cent pk w.local
B TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV EXPRESS
B TO 36 /BKLYN SHUTTLE
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS WEST END EXP
B TO CONEY ISLAND
N TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY EXP
N TO DITMARS BLVD 4 AV EXPRESS BROADWAY LOCAL
N TO DITMARS BLVD 4 AV LOCAL BROADWAY EXP
N TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY LOCAL
N TO KINGS HIGHWY BROADWAY EXP SEA BEACH EXP
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY EXP SEA BEACH LOCAL
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH EXP
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH LOCAL
D TO 205 ST /BRONX 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE EXP
D TO 205 ST/BRONX 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
D TO BEDFORD PARK 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS CONCOURSE LOCAL
Q TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON LOCAL
Q TO 21 ST/QUEENS 6 AV EXPRESS
S TO FRANKLIN AV
S TO PROSPECT PK
E
E JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
E JAMAICA CENTER
N TO KINGS HIGHWY BROADWAY LOCAL SEA BEACH LOCAL
PAGE 4
F JAMIACA CENTER QUEENS EXPRESS
F JAMAICA CENTER QUEENS LOCAL
F JAMAICA CENTER VIA 8 AV
G JAMAICA CENTER CROSSTOWN LOCAL
N JAMAIA ENTER BROADWAY EXP
N JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
N JAMAICA CENTER VIA BROADWAY
R JAMIACA CENTER BROADWAY LOCAL
R JAMAICA CENTER VIA 6 AV
S JAMAICA CENTER SHUTTLE
S TO UNION TPKE SHUTTLE
V JAMIACA CENTER VIA 6 AV
W JAMAICA CENTER VIA BROADWAY
JAMAICA CENTER
SUTPHIN / ARCHER
JAMAICA /VN WYCK
B TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
B QUEENSBORO PL Z VIA BROADWAY
D TO DITMARS LVD VIA BROADWAY
D QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
N
N TO DITMARS VLD BROADWAY LOCAL VIA BRIDGE
N TO DITMARS BLVD
N QUEENS BORO PLZ
Can you e-mail me the list, the whole list and nothing but the list?
Can anyone explain why this car has an R16-type storm door?
Because you're looking thru the regular square window at the R16 it's coupled to... :-)
-Dave
No, that round-windowed storm door IS in the R10. Look at where the doorknob is. The knob would be on the other side if it was on the adjoining car.
Chris R16's photo appears to be car 3076. Bill Newkirk's 2000 subway calendar, May photo, shows car 3047 also to have a R16-type storm door in the leading end.
DUH! Now that I zoomed in on the car number, I see I had a case of HUA (or just bad eyes). 1575. 1575. (I will write that on the blackboard 500 times....1575)
Slap me silly for that one......
But the round-windowed storm door is still in 1575 not the adjoining car.
Two questions....
1. When was that round-windowed door put in 1575?
2. What happened, and when, that caused 1575 to be the car that was rebuilt with the R-10 type body? (I know it was some sort of a wreck. Details, locations, date, anyone?
Look closer at the window - you can clearly see the square shape of the window - and the round window behind it - on the NEXT car. Dave is right.
It's an optical illusion. There is no porthole window in 1575. I was with Dave when he snapped the picture.
--Mark
WRONG. Their is a R16 car display in the Transit Museum and that are # happens to be #6387. thank you
Nobody said there wasn't an R16 down there.
I said "Chris R16's 1575 photo...."
Chris R16 is someone's handle. 1575 is the car number whose interior photo he posted.
No, both doors are closed, but in that picture you are looking thorugh the large,square window and seeing the round window behind it. Look carefully - you can see the reflections in the square window if you look just outside the circular shape.
05/11/2000
I looked at that photo of #1575 and it seems that the storm door with the porthole window is a little shiny. Isn't that the R-11?
Also, the R-10 with the storm door porthole window is #3047 as seen in the May image.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, that is R11/R34 #8013 back there.
wayne
Yep. I downloaded a copy at the office and magnified it on Photoshop with an 18-inch monitor, and you can clearly tell that 1575's door is closed and that's 8013 behind it, not 6387.
Even though it's not really an R-10, just the idea of hooking the R-10 prototype together with an R-16 seems a bit sacreligous. Put it on the CPW run and one half the train would get to 125th Street five minutes ahead of the other half :)
Okay, did the same thing, and yes -- it does show that the 1575's door is shut. Normally, I'm looking at a 15" monitor, and at my ripe old age.......
One more reason I used to make use of circular polarizing filters when I shot my slides, it reduced a lot of the glare, even in artificially lit subjects.
Thanks for the help, guys!!
05/12/2000
Isn't R-16 #6387 coupled to the R-30 in the museum?
Bill Newkirk
Well, 6387 is parked next to the R-30. I can't remember if they're actually coupled together.
Every car is coupled together on that side of the platform, except for the D Types and Diesel 10, located at the end of the Museum Consist.
-Stef
I heard that BMT standard 2204 has an R-1/9 truck on the end facing #100. Is that so?
Also, is the blind end of the R-30 facing 6387? I'm pretty sure it is, but can't remember for sure.
Yes, the "B" end of R30 #8506 is facing the end of R16 #6387. If you look VERY carefully, you can see where #8506 was fixed after the horrific crack-up on the Astoria El in 1974, which destroyed his mate, #8507, and friend #8545. The damage to #8506 was minor, the result of contact with his mate.
Wayne
Well, since 1575 is an R-7A, it wouldn't be compatible with the R-16 anyway. Now, the R-10s could and occasionally did intermix with the R-16s in the 50s when both ran on the A. In fact, there is a photo in the car section of 6463 coupled to the end of a string of R-10s.
I personally thought it would have been sacriligeous to couple R-10s to anything else, period, and luckily it didn't happen very often. I only saw them in solid trains.
They probably had ice on the tracks at the Rockaways that day and 6463 was being used as ballast to slow down the other R-10 cars :)
Could very well be. Maybe that's why the R-10s ran in solid trains. Anything else thrown into the consist would slow them down.:-)
There's a photo of R-42s and R-10s coupled together in the car section. Larry Redbird R-33 says he once saw a train of 8 R-32s with an R-10 coupled to each end. Not much compromise on speed there.
Hey, the IRT's version of the R10, the R12 was commonly coupled with other cars.
Unfortunately so. In the period where the IRT had a mix up of different cars in all trains except Flushing the trains handled terribly. Dynamic braking was different by each period and the dynamic fade and when the brake shoes took over was different and it was hard to make a smooth stop. It would be like mixing an Rl0,Rl6, and R27 in the same train on B Division, for acomparison.
I often rode on mixed R16-R2730 trains on the J. Yes, they lurched a lot, but that may have more to do with the crappy condition of the cars at the time (early 80's).
Were it #3076, the seats would not be as they are, they'd be the charcoal-grey fiberglas, and most likely the car would be awash in graffitti. Not a spot on her blouse, that's our #1575.
Wayne
The 3076 I mentioned was in Bill Newkirk's calendar (as I posted).
Woops, did it again...3047 was Bill Newkirk's photo. I'm looking on my desk at a slide of 3076 that I took years ago. Need to stop posting, looking at calendars, slides, and trying to eat dinner at the same time!!
I also have a shot of 3138 taken around 1967 or so, and talk about strange door windows -- the passenger side doors were modified so they have smaller windows like the R-1/9 fleet.
Anyone know the reasoning behind THIS one?
05/12/2000
I believe that car had the experimental air vents combiined with the door windows. I believe an R-12 or 14 had those too.
Bill Newkirk
You wouldn't happen to have any photos of R-10s with two circular windows on each door leaf, would you? Honest to goodness, I've seen R-10s with those R-11/R-15-style door windows, but no one else seems to have. Even Mister R-10, William Padron, says he's never seen any. I know they were R-10s because they had the teal-and-blue paint scheme, which I loved, and they were on the A line.
Since I've been there a dozen times as tour guide, let me chip in on what you see in the picture. The picture looks decieving, but the truth is that 1575 has a door with a rectangular window, while the next car is the R-11, #8013. 8013 is the one with the circular window.
-Stef
Five years ago, the storm doors were kept open between the cars on display, and you could assume the position between 100 and 484, or 484 and 1575. When I did that for the first time, I said out loud, "Man, I've always wanted to do this." Then there was an incident which resulted in the locking of all storm doors and the installation of protective railings along the platform edge between cars. Now I can't play conductor anymore...
On the topic of that calendar, the page with the cars being pulled by an engine, What types of cars are those?
lincoln
The cars being pulled by the loco look like R27/30's.
Are you sure? It really really looks like the rounded window door is on the R7 and not appearing through the normal square window you'd expect to see. I haven't been to the Transit Museum in 8 years so I don't remember what's what...
What you're looking at is the storm door window of R11 #8013, which is adjacent to the R-7. The NEXT car up the line is R16 #6387.
Wayne
Well, I can't zoom in and see, so I'll take your word for it ...
Exactly when and where was this picture taken?
This picture was taken at The Transit Museum. Within the last year I believe.
Peace,
ANDEE
.......all fo this fuss over a RAILFAN-WINDOW.??.... well, I have a close up of this r-7 & all others at the subway museum!!
it is in my vidieo section with the E train four hours long total with an added bonus .....!!!
Transit Museum. July 2000.
--Mark
As a further note, R-7 car 1575, rebuilt in 1946-47 with an R-10 body, was last operated on the LL (14th Street-Canarsie line) in 1976 before it was retired to the Transit Museum. I got this information from a friend.
Either I'm lucky and keep getting the same train, or they seem to be running a lot of R46 E trains this week.
I assume that the reason is because several R-32s are out of service as they are getting new floors.
Those would be ones that currently have mushy floors, I hope.
Wayne
Yes they are and hopefully they are doing the worst ones first.
Do I hear...#3612-13...
Mighty mushy!
WAYNE
Lots of mushy ones out there. That's why the R-32s are being done first. I'll pass the info on to the General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop in the AM. I'm sure he has a priority list for cars to go out for floor replacement. Incidently, he's the same person responsible for the Slants on the Q line.
Funny - I haven't noticed any mushy floors on the Slants - I DID however notice a few R40Ms with them. Unfortunately I didn't take the car numbers down. If I see any more I will make note of them.
Didn't see any problems with R38 either.
wayne
3402/03 are disasters. The worst pair of JAM 32's I've walked thru. I haven't seen that pair for a few weeks. Hopefully, they are part of the first batch having their floors replaced.
No more duct taped foors!! All right!!
.........now that the rude rudy is toast ....... and winding down...... ( never rode a redbird ) ..... i really enjoy the
silence now that the countdown to his final fall into the abiss is now no longer a myth .......!!!
Rudy is far from done, he will hopefully be our next senator and Hillary will be going home.
Don't hold your breath. I think Hillary is now a shoe-in.
The last thing Hillary wants is for Rudy to drop out. There are lots of people who dislike Rudy because of decisions he made, and lots of people who dislike Hillary because of things she stands for.
Put in someone with no big negatives, and Hillary is just a carpetbagger. All those people yelling about police brutality aren't going to come out to vote for Hillary, but they will come out to vote against Rudy. Take Rudy out, and everyone voting against Hillary still does so.
[The last thing Hillary wants is for Rudy to drop out. There are lots of people who dislike Rudy because of decisions he made, and lots of people who dislike Hillary because of things she stands for.
Put in someone with no big negatives, and Hillary is just a carpetbagger. All those people yelling about police brutality aren't going to come out to vote for Hillary, but they will come out to vote
against Rudy. Take Rudy out, and everyone voting against Hillary still does so.]
I was talking about politics with a co-worker this afternoon and he made very similar comments. He noted that this anti-Rudy sentiment was particularly strong among black voters, who might be expected to turn out in unprecedented numbers to vote for Hillary (or, more accurately, against Rudy) if the race is between the two. But if we end up with a Hillary-vs.-someone else race, black turnout is likely to be significantly lower, and that'll hurt Hillary - who may not have much appeal to black voters except as the anti-Rudy candidate. I suppose the same might be true among Hispanic voters as well. Of course, the highly politicized Upper West Siders will turn out en masse to vote for Hillary regardless of her opponent, but their numbers probably aren't big enough to sway the election under most circumstances.
I say put in a REAL Republican who has two pluses going for him: his youth AND his temperment.
That means RICK LAZIO.
He doesn't have the baggage of Rudy G. and he's well known -- and liked -- throughout the New York area.
(Besides, he WAS the original GOP candidate until Pataki told him to sit on the sidelines).
Doug aka BMTman
where is Alphonse D' when you need him??
I think you're exactly right, Doug. I suspect that Giuliani never really wanted to be a senator, anyway.
I'd expect that the coming two years will bring:
1. Sen. Lazio.
2. A tightly contested mayors race between Hevesi and Fosella (which wouldn't be so tightly contested if Hevesi didn't have to go through primarys against Ferrer and Green.
3. Mr. Pataki moves to Washington (but not as a V.P.).
4. A governors race between Giuliani and McCall. (I'd count on McCall to squash Andrew Cuomo like a bug in any primary).
Fun stuff coming. Probably not as much fun as Clinton vs. Giuliani, but fun nevertheless.
Chuck
Why would Pataki move to Washington and why would Fosella give up a relatively safe seat (the only GOP seat in the city) to run for a job that he probably could'nt win. He might be a senator someday, or governor. As far as Hillary is concerned, I sure hope she doesn;t win. I just can't stand the sight of her.
With the latest news from Rudy, between the prostrate cancer and the split with the Mrs. he has a bit more problem to handle. On the nat'l news tonight, he looked good, and professed he's staying in the Senate campaign. This was immediately followed by the Smartest Woman in the Entire World who annouced that she is never dropping out and has support all over the state. This is May, there are 6 more months of the same drivel from either camp.
It will be interesting to see if the Candidate with no discernable substance shows up in New York to endorse Rudy.
Speaking of the Pres. contest, here we go again: Our choice will be the candidate who will do the least amount of damage to the country in four years. Party labels do not count.
Fie on all of them. Let's go ride rail.
My bone to pick with Rudy is not that he had an affair -- big deal -- look at most politicians. But, WHY DID HE WAIT till now to get around to "coming out". He should have done this back in the Chirstyne Latagno-affair days. This was a DUMB move.
Doug aka BMTman
Rudy's fate probably hinges more on how this plays out among upstate Republicans than it does in the city, since that's actually his base in the general election against Hillary.
My feeling is he'll decide within the next week or two, depending on what the internal polls show. If the affair looks like it's going to either switch voters or just depress Republican turnout numbers upstate, Rudy's gone.
The mayor's admissions are, perhaps, a bit late. However, we elected a president who had oral-genital contact with a 20 year old aide. He and Hilly still insist that this did not constitute sex. If the Clinton's can define non-sexual that way, I have grave concerns about what Hilly's concept of honesty is. Hilly's got many skeletons in her closet. "Rest in peace, Vince Foster!"
[The mayor's admissions are, perhaps, a bit late. However, we elected a president who had oral-genital contact with a 20 year old aide.]
Technically, that is NOT having sex.
Copulation, however, IS sexual intercourse.
What Bill got was 'Presidential favors'. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, you are less funny than our "comedian in residence".
Steve aka TrainDude
I have a question, did Rudy ever use the term Family Values? The word Trust seams to come to mind. Donna trusted Rudy , He faied that trust. The Gods and Goddess don,t like UGLY. Rudy will lose his manhood and the trust of strangers.(voters)
One of my beleifs is in Family, If you can not give your partner (legally certified by marriage) your trust, how can you ask the voters of the state of New York , to trust in you. The man has insulted his marrige contract, his wife, and now seeks to further insult the public. He has not a shredd of deciency in his political heart.
Beware of this man, don,t fall for his sympathy ploy.
He should get a plaid jacket and sell abused cars.
avid
Well, to be fair, we'd have to judge all public officials and leaders by the same standard of conduct, wouldn't we? There goes John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy and of course Ted (the Swimmer) Kennedy. There goes Eisenhower, Roosevelt, Jefferson (Not George) and of course Mr. & Mrs. Clinton. Again let's not forget Martin Luther King and the guy who cried "I have sinned" on national TV.
What you and your elitist snob ilk can't seem to do is seperate the private from the public - that is unless the person has a slightly left-leaning gait. If you are going to criticize Mr. Giuliani for screwing his press secretary then criticize Dinkins for screwing the rest of the city with a $19,000 headboard, Crown Heights and The US Open. Criticize Ed Kock for his weekly scandals starting with Bess Meyerson, Donald Mannus etc. Let's not forget White-Water and Vince Foster. The mayor's affair has not affected anyone but his family. Can the other's I mentioned say the same thing?
He is still NOT TRUSTWORTHY! Not to the ikl. Is He good to those he serves. The special interest hacks, he has learned since he supported Coumo. He is one of your Conservitive Yankee Imperialist Running Dog Lackies. If he spouts family values and seduces subordinates you deserve him , but the senate does not. If the government can,t clean its house, more nuts will form so called Patriotic groups. We're going in the wrong direction, Past wrongs don't give a free pass to more seekers of the same . We are getting fair warning from an UNTRUSTWORTHY Hack. Pick your own poison but not mine.
enjoy your weekend
avid
So what you are saying is that there is something wrong with being patriotic? I suppose we all now know what we are dealing with here.
And yes, I will enjoy my weekend.
Hey Avid Reader: You still didn't answer Train Dude's question. Is it all right for liberals as those mentioned to do their "thing"
and not Republicans? You sound like an elitist liberal dork and you will not be allowed to get away with such hypocracy. Do you understand that? When I hear you condemn the libs who violated their morals then I'll get off your case. Now answer the question.
Sea Beach Fred: A couple of things. I'm sorry, but it has to be pointed out that Bill "Wild Bill" Clinton IS NOT a liberal. All you have to do is look at his policies in the White House AND during his Arkansas Govenorship. He IS a Dem but he's NOT a liberal.
Secondly, I must take you to task for your shameless name-calling aimed at Avid Reader. It is not necessary and only shows a lack of maturity on your part.
Let's try and be more civil even when we disagree on things that otherwise make our blood boil.
Thanks.
Doug aka BMTman
There seems to be some kind of rule that to run for public office as a Republican, you have to fool around and then dump your first wife and kids.
With the Democrats, fooling around seems to be optional, and you seem to be able to keep your wife and kids even if you do. Seems like a better deal.
But getting back to a transit subject: can you think of ANY New York area pol who is known to ride the subway on a regular basis? The only one I can think of is Ed Koch.
You might be right there, Larry.
Although, I bet Lindsay rode the subway -- if only to 'test drive' his 'utra-modern' slant R-40 cars.
None of our Mayors rode the subway on a regular basis -- not even Ed Koch. Most of them rode only for some public-relations business.
That's too bad, since getting around the city -- even for a chauffeur-driven limo is alot tougher than riding the subway. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. Larry, I ARGEE with your assesment. Just today at work everyone was talking about how politicians and sexual escapades seem to go hand-in-hand (regardless of party affiliation). One of my staff discussed how the psychology of those who go into politics (a deep-seated drive for power & control) is related to sexual desires/wants & needs. So perhaps there is something mentally-ingrained in those who seek political power that thrives on sexual "conquests" as well. Food for thought???
During the time I was in college (in Staten Island) I rode the inaugural trip of the R-44s on the SIRT. John V. Lindsay was in the cab along with the MTA Charman who's name escapes me now. I met Ed Koch on the subway when a train derailed at W4th St. David Dinkens, to the best of my knowledge, never rode the subway during the time he was mayor (even to the Arthur Ashe tennis center)
Was Ronan the MTA chairman when the R-44s debuted, by any chance?
Oh yea. Big Bill was the man behind those babies, along with the idea that painting every subway car MTA colors would make up for actually maintaining them.
Since Ronan was actaully the one who drew up the proposal for the MTA for Rockefeller, his transportation legacy in NYC is pretty big, though not as well-known as that of Robert Moses, since Ronan never had his own power base outside of the one Rocky gave him.
Exactly!!! I couldn't think of the name. Thank you. He was on the inaugural run on the SIRT with mayor Linsley!
[P.S. Larry, I AGREE with your assesment. Just today at work everyone was talking about how politicians and sexual escapades seem to go hand-in-hand (regardless of party affiliation). One of my staff discussed how the psychology of those who go into politics (a deep-seated drive for power & control) is related to sexual desires/wants & needs. So perhaps there is something mentally-ingrained in those who seek political power that thrives on sexual "conquests" as well. Food for thought???]
It may be something that goes beyond politicians. Rich and powerful men in general seem to have a "roving eye," so to speak. Tom Wolfe's recent novel _A Man in Full_ goes into this phenomenon in a fictional but probably accurate way. The allure of the Trophy Wife remains a strong one.
"But getting back to a transit subject: can you think of ANY New York area pol who is known to ride the subway on a regular
basis? The only one I can think of is Ed Koch"
Well, with Gracie Mansion being so far east... Maybe if there were a Second Avenue Subway...
Second Avenue subway! Just think of the possibilities! Rudy G could have jumped on at a stop two blocks from Gracie Mansion, visted his girl pal at 95th Street and gotten back into bed before Donna H. ever noticed he was missing! What more reasons do you need to build the Second Ave. Subway than that??
Well perhaps if Bill and Monica got tired of the Oval Office Desk, they could have tried a bench seat on an R-36. Still another reason to open a new subway line.
...I could not vote for anyone who views all of the black & latinos as crimminals and all of the homeless should
be ""CRACKED DOWN UPON"" instead of thier social services & benefits cut off & especailly the disabled....
And then use good nypd officers like Officer Rosen and others to do Ruby "G" s dirty work for him !!!
I cant even begin to say how much I am against the framing of ALL homeless as crimminals like rudy ""G"" does !
( by the way I feel the same way about willie brown of san francisco and our STEALPH mayors in my state !!
"...I could not vote for anyone who views all of the black & latinos as crimminals "
Could you vote for Jesse Jackson, Salaam? Several years ago Mr. Jackson related an incident about when he was in DC late at night, walking the streets. He heard footsteps behind him and when he turned he say the silhouette of three men behind him.
These are Mr. Jacksons words...He said:
He turned around and was relieved to find that the three young men were white.
Perhaps not as racist as his Hymie-town comment but Mr. Jackson and Mr. Giuliani must hold similar opinions of young black males. Perhaps if Mr. Jackson was a police officer we'd get some first hand information on profiling........
..........since you asked ......and go all thru the unecessary troudle to post it in red etc ............
mr jessie jackson is not my favorite I would go into how he might have even been involved in the murder
of martin luther king ............and his behaviour around MLK that looks not so good to me even back in 1968 ........
you got me wrong mr train dude ( unfortunatey ) I will not use subtalk to discuss the few black men & women
who I do believe spoke and some of them are still alive today !!!!
If you insist I will list them thru private e mail ..................... asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com ............
I will answer this on my and your e mail...............NOT ON SUBTALK PLEASE .......!!!!!!!
No.....!!!! You got me wrong willie brown san franciscos mayor cracks down on homeless just like tom bradley
did !!! I was against them just like the rude rudy G anti social services on the poor and homeless union busting
using workfare to bust up transit workers unions etc.... with welfare workfare workers..................
I didnt agree with andrew youngs war against the homeless in atlanta as he was supposed to be MLKs
right hand man ..........( thanks for spelling my name right )........
If any spelling errors I am sorry ........
i responded to you on this silly post..........typical when some of you lose you dont respond proving I was right ..!!
Ah, Salaam, at last we've connected. No' I am not ignoring your response. Work doesn't afford me the opportunity to respond to Sub-talk postings regardless of how intriguing they are. I really do not want to speculate as to Jesse Jackson's complicity in Reverend King's death. If there were any evidence to support the theory, the FBI, I'm quite sure, would love to nail him. I've heard that, depending on who you believe, the Democratic National Committee gave him anywhere from $2 million to $7 million (not to deliver the black vote but) to go away and be quiet during the 1996 campaign. This is why so many people of color actually believe that Clinton is good for them (or at least don't know what Jesse does).
I beleive I mentioned this before, those of poor moral backbone do not deserve support in or to a public office . To reward one candidate because a previous office holder of an opposing party displayed a tendancy to violate TRUST is saying two wrongs make a right. They all should be punished in Singapore. A public caning and denied admission to public office.
Is that good enough for you . I never said I supported those who violated a trust. Do that and the next chance (in the Voting booth) your fired! If the violater can be prosacuted, even better. I beleive the politicians have their own "Blue wall" but at least the police clean their own house.
avid
Get over the past, catch up to now, HEis not worthy
avid
Hey liberal elitist---you've been uncovered and with such sputterings I can't say for sure, but you could be a dork. Get your crap together and portray a balanced picture or you will have more problems with some of your colleagues on this site than you want.
Does that go for Bill Clinton, the Big Kahuna of liars and cheaters or does this just apply to Republicans? What about Al Gore? He lies through his face and does a lousy job of it. What about him, or are Dimorats exempt from your scrutiny?
Does that go for Bill Clinton, the Big Kahuna of liars and cheaters or does this just apply to Republicans? What about Al Gore? He lies through his face and does a lousy job of it. What about him, or are Dimwotorats exempt from your scrutiny?
.........there is this idiot named larry nicols down in arkansas interviewed by the black helicopter right wing extermists
talk radio types .......there is where you get the vince foster murder conspiricies etc......
did he participate in vince fosters murder ?? I do not know !! however I still have questions on the three assanations
""executive action"" & the JFK murder the RFK asanation and the assanation of "X" the truth is still out on these !!
executive action a movie made 1973 was the best movie I have ever seen on the kennedy assanation......
on robert kennedy and min. malcolm shabazz I wont go into this as it is too long but too many questions remain (for me).
rude rudy g running against the presidents wife as I said if I was a voter in new york I would hold my nose...& vote against him !!
I cannot vote for a candidate who uses police to rape and murder !!.... & his abuse of the homeless not helping them
his haterd of and abuses of disabled welfare reciepents...... It is a shocker to hear he rode the subway !!!!!
One thing is for shure rudy G does not have the black & latino vote and a lot of others !!
May Donna Hanover take him for every cent he's got!!!
Acutally, working in the television business for so many years, Donna probably has a higher net income than Rudy does.
I'm 100% behind your statement.
She had to put up with his sh-t for a looong time, apparently.
Doug aka BMTman
Do you suppose that Hillary has also put up with Bill's s--t for a long time or is that different? Or is it Bill putting up with hilarious Hillary's s--t? Or is that different for a lib like you. Are you sure you and avid reader aren;t one in the same? You and him are certainly sounding like two liberal elitist in a pod.
Do you suppose that Hillary has also put up with Bill's s--t for a long time or is that different? Or is it Bill putting up with hilarious Hillary's s--t? Or is that different for a lib like you. Are you sure you and avid reader aren;t one in the same? You and him are certainly sounding like two liberal elitists in a pod.
Wow! You're really getting hot under the collar, aren't you???
Better take your meds before you get a stroke or something...
I am not avid reader. And I resent your calling me a 'liberal elitist' (whatever that is) -- which I am NOT.
I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Most clear-thinking people aren't as black-and-white on issues as obviously you are Mr. Sea Beach (BTW, second-rate rapid transit line).
Doug aka BMTman
..........no one can give me any reason why blacks & latinos should vote for rudy G especially his support
of police brutality and murder and his war against the new york city homeless an disabled reciepents of
public social services .........his personal war against them too .......!!!!!
salaam.....PLEASE -- ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THIS RANT!
Doug, it's like shouting at a brick wall. It does no good whatsoever.
Killfile him NOW, and receive peace forever.
...........all of the other threads contained nothing about why rudy G odds of winning are not good at all........
unfortunately the other threads were so to the right of attilla the hun that some common sense
( missing in the last two threads ) ....... and most of them had to be challenged for the lack of content ..
< acciadntal spacing ........................tried to ......... close the gap on this .............. oh well >
( my opinion ) ......hillary is not my favorite person at all but rudy G to most black and latinos
leave a lot to be desired !!
So....!!! rudy rode the # 4 redbird ?? seems hard to believe !!!
Well Doug, at least your answer to Salaam was a start in the right direction. Have fun on the Brighton. I'll alsos bet you're a Yankee fan.
........i disagree ...... his backing of police miurder & rape with a toilet plunger and his assults on the homeless
in which willie brown the mayor of san francisco also does with his war against the homeless ...........
and his war against disabled reciepents of social services is at best more imoral than any thing he does
in or out of his filthy bedroom ........ none of my business i dont want to know !!.
El-wrongo.
I'm a Met's fan. Duh...
Doug: I'm also a Mets fan. How about smoking the peace pipe with El Wrongo. We finally got rid of that cancer Henderson. Maybe now we can end the distractions and get on a winning streak.
....EL - rightgo........i used to like the dodgers & angels ....!!!!
Sea Beach second rate? I guess you want to keep me hot under the collar. As far as liberal elitist, you claim you don't know what one is, heh? How about that woman running forthe Senate in your state. Would she qualify? What you are is your own business, but some day I will see what issues you are conservative on. I've seen plenty of liberal beliefs, and I'd bet you are squarely in carpetbagger hilarious Hillary's corner. But have a good day anyway and enjoy riding on your second rate Brighton.
She's not my candidate. And I am not of her ilk a 'liberal elitist' as you put it.
You can put labels on people all you want. Unfortunately, you are a very little man who obviously has trouble relating to others.
Good day to you sir.
Doug aka BMTman
Wrong on both counts friend!!!!!! I relate quite well and I'm 5:9, not a giant but certainly not a squirt. Anyway, we agree Rudy did himself no good and you are BMT man, so we do have something in common. Maybe our next exchange will be friendlier. At least you're not for Hillary.
He is not WORTHY!
Ypur sorry excuse of a conservative tin god jumped off of his pedestal, and now he is up to his mouth in his own swill. Attempts to excuse him because other political figures in the passed did the same or abused their offices doesn't wash. Two or many WRONGS don't make a right.
He is not WORTHY. He is NOT entitled to TRUST. Neither are passed .
Mistakes are excuseable , Violations of TRUST are NOT.
avid
I happen to agree with you on that. SURPRISE??????? But you neve answered if that goes for your boy Clinton? Well does it? At least we Republicans will condemn one of our own when they are in the wrong. You dimwitocrats have defended that Presidential bum with all of your heart and soul. That's disgusting. Anyway, we might just be better off with Lazio or Governor Pataki running against her. I think the GOV would clean the street of your Hillary. What do you think?
I happen to agree with you on that. SURPRISE??????? But you never answered if that goes for your boy Clinton? Well does it? At least we Republicans will condemn one of our own when they are in the wrong. You dimwitocrats have defended that Presidential bum with all of your heart and soul. That's disgusting. Anyway, we might just be better off with Lazio or Governor Pataki running against her. I think the GOV would clean the street of your Hillary. What do you think?
I never trusted Rudy since the first police contract he was involved in as mayor. After promising cops everything and saying how much better he would be to cops than Dinkins he screwed us on 2 contracts and took the Perb bill to court saying it was unconstitutional because it violates home rule. During his first campaign he even had the PBA supply volunteers to answer the phones for him free!!!! Then of course he stabbed them in the back. Thats why he has to support the police in the media. However I'd rather he not support us verbally but give us more money. Saying you support cops doesn't feed my wife and kid!!! The NYPD went from one of the highest paid police departments in the country under Ed Koch to one of the lowest paid urban departments in the country under Giulliani. The last contract was 5 years at 0-0-3-3-6. The first 2 years of zero's was to avoid any retroactive money!! My vote goes to Hillary Clinton.
What goes around comes around. May Donna Hanover take him for everything he's got!!!!
We had a family dinner today that included my son-in-law (a NYPD Sgt.) and his father (retired NYPD detective). My son-in-law's father is very active in politics and it's clear from what he told me, Mr. Giuliani could not count on the support of the PBA in the forthcoming senatorial election. Understandable in light of your portrayal of his past relations with the NYPD. However, considering the 'double jeopardy' policy the Clinton Justice Dept. has used to persecute police, how can the police feel safe voting for her beastliness. Seems to me that money is one thing but equal treatment before the law is more vital to a policeman's security.
It'll be interesting to see how local 100 members will treat the mayor IF he continues his senatorial run. After all it was Mr. Giuliani who singlehandedly forced the transit settlement on local 100 and the MTA. However, the union leadership may now be backing away from parts of that agreement as portions of it are heading to arbitration. It will be interesting to see if the spin-doctors of local 100 can deflect the blame (for the 'poor' contract) to the mayor.
Your sorry excuse of a conservative tin god jumped off of his pedestal, and now he is up to his mouth in his own swill. Attempts to excuse him because other political figures in the passed did the same or abused their offices doesn't wash. Two or many WRONGS don't make a right.
He is not WORTHY. He is NOT entitled to TRUST. Neither are passed
abusers .
Mistakes are excuseable , Violations of TRUST are NOT. He must and should be made to see this in the Voting Booth.The republicans would be better off with out him. In the public eye they'll stand with him and say the matter is a personal one, but be sure , behind closed doors they'll ask him to leave for personal reasons or reasons of health. Those of you that name call me or others are just showing your own anger at having been deceived and having your trust stepped on. His dark side is in full view . Admit it , he had you fooled. That the mans job, he is a laywer, and some times they twist the truth. How can you tell when he is lying? Ans. His lips are moving!
avid
I got just two words for yuh.....
SENATOR GIULIANI!
www.forgotten-ny.com
# 1 besides you who will vote for him ?? .....I would ( hold my nose ) and vote for hillary ......remember I would hold my nose !!
#2 who would vote for him ?? the black & latino vote ?? democrat vote ?? conservative white males only ??
#3 what ever support rude rude rudy did have has fast-faded including his blessing s of police brutality & murder......
has he ever rode the subway ????
Well in answer to your last query -- I would assume Rudy G. rode the subway. However, this would not include his stint as Mayor.
You see, Rudy grew up in Flatbush (Hawthorne Street) so he would have at some point no doubt ridden the subway -- most likely the Flatbush 2/5 branch. In those days the cars were most likely pre-Redbird R-12 and/or R-17 types.
As Mayor, I doubt he ventured anywhere NEAR a subway train.
Doug aka BMTman
my only question to all the threads is who is going to vote for the rude rudy g ???....who supports him now ??
where is his over-whelming support come from now ??. not just a few right wing talk show types etc.....!!!!!
>>>where is his over-whelming support come from now ??<<<
The ABH vote.
Anyone But Hillary...
However.
I am very disppointed with what Giuliani did re Dorismond, and what he did to his wife, carrying on with the girlfriend while still married.
I'd vote for Pataki, Green, even Bozo the Clown against Hillary. Since I consider Sharpton a step down from Bozo, I'd have to think hard about him.
And, BTW, I've yet to hear Her Highness say word one about mass transit.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[And, BTW, I've yet to hear Her Highness say word one about mass transit.]
Interviewer: Mrs. Clinton, what are your opinions concerning mass transit?
Hillary: What's that?
After what happened to her and her husband at St. Patrick's on Monday, I doubt she wants to hear about anything with the word "mass" in it for a while :)
(And, BTW, I've yet to hear Her Highness say word one about mass transit).
No, Hillary doesn't care about infrastructure, or about education for the kids (although she does pander to the teacher's union by saying the kids who aren't getting educated shouldn't have choices).
Then again, those aren't really Rudy's issues either. It's either more social services and health care, or more tax cuts and police.
The only NY politician who understands is Moynihan.
And Grandpa Al (least we forget The Green Party candidate).
Will someone please fill me in Re: Clintons @ St. Patrick's. I guess I wasn't paying attention to our Baltimore TV news when it was mentioned. Or, because it's the Middle-Atlantic hinterlands, it didn't get mentioned at all.
>>>Will someone please fill me in Re: Clintons @ St. Patrick's. <<<
Cardinal Law (of Boston) was talking about O'Connor's opposition to abortion in the sermon. There was a spontaneous standing ovation in the cathedral. The politicos stood, but did not applaud.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin: Hear hilarious Hillary talk about mass transit? Please do not hold your breath. It will not happen until she feels she needs to pander to some group. Maybe she can get that pathetic Al Sharpton to be her spokesman for MT.
........now remember i said i would hold my nose first.......!!! and then vote against rude rudy G ........
you didnt respond to rudys support of police brutality and toilet plungers rape & murder !!
and his war against social safety nets for the poor and his war against the homeless ....... to name a few !!
now !!! you have to know the black-latino vote aint there for rudy !!
HE IS NOT WORTHY
AVID
You can either post your mindless claims of worthiness or you can elaborate on your (obviously weak) stand.
He joinedinto a marriage contract. Has taken the conservative/republican dogma, of which is the claim to family values, as if no one else has strong or better family values. When questions of his relations has been brought up in the past at news conferences, he stonewalled them. I beleive he felt this would be a negative factor in his run for the senate . The republicans can't have a similar Clinton scandal: the aid trist thing. The real world is People in the public eye and office better be squeekie clean and trustworthy in small and private things if they expect to have the public trust. The senate is about the third or fouth most powerful elected position in the world. There are only 100, term is six years, and can be re -elected for more then 2 terms. You better be able to trust the two from your state, because you can't vote for the others.
He violated the 11th and 12th Commandments
Thou shall not get caught!
Thou shall not get involved!
How can you trust him with national and international issues.
He's probly against farm aid, where does that leave you?
avid
Why do I care about farm aid?
Are you sure he does not ride Subway? You are totally wrong. Rudy Giuliani is a huge Yankee fan. He and his son Andrew rode #4 line from 86th Street to Yankee Stadium. His ride was on the New York Times several years ago.
¿Is a home signal just a signal with two sets of lights (i.e. green, yellow, red [break] green, yellow, red) instead of the regular one set, or is it something different?
A home signal (also known as an interlocking signal) is different from a block signal in that it is absolute. A train can pass a block signal set at stop and then proceede at restricted speed and still remain perfectly safe. However a home or interlocking signal is interlocked with turnouts. If a train passes a home signal set at stop there is a very good chance that it will derail. A home signal can have any munber of signal heads, but they often have more than one. This is because of course that trains require more information as they approach interlockings then they do when passing from block to block. In the world of Railroads home signals usually have 2 heads, but I have seen many with just one. Furthermore distant signals are automatic and may be passed at red, but they have more than one head. The key piece in the definition of a home signal is that home signals show Stop and Stay while automatic signals show Stop and Proceede.
The name home probably comes from ye olde Englande where each block limit was controled by a signalbox. The only signals were distants (some distance up the line) and home signals that were located at the signalman's "home" ie the signalbox.
So where did the term "Home Ball" come from? I assume its an adulteration of Home Signal and Highball.....?
In the United States where railway safety was abismal until aboot 1880 there where very few signaling systems. However where there were signaling towers the prefered method of signaling was coloured balls that were raised up and down. A Hi-ball usually signaled clear. However, even though the signals were balls, not sema-4's the signals that gaurded interlockings were still home signals and if the signals were balls they were the home-balls. BTW I have a pic somewhere of a ball signal on some B&M branch line in New Englande that survived into the 1960's.
Oh, so the "Ball" was literal. It goes back further than my guess "high-ball"
Dig it
You're close. The first railroad signals were ball signals, and a high ball meant the block was clear, low meant it wasn't.. before my time buit I assume low ball meant stop. Highball was adapted to mean speed along; there were manual block signals. So balls were the term used for signals on NYCT and I presume some other roads; on some RR's or different areas signals can be called boards orm blocks, but only one term is used in a given area, for block signals at least. I worked the ex NP line in Montana where blocks were block signals and a board was a telegrap order board. I find the Spanish typewriter interesting in the topic line.. with the inverted question mark.Sooo..homeball indeed is ahome signal.. or ball.
This definition is correct for "real" railroads, but in NYCT
vernacular, the term "home signal", or "home ball", would only
be used to refer to a multi-headed interlocking signal. Since
by a rule change some 30 years ago all red signals are STOP AND STAY,
the big deal about a home ball is that is has a different
"retaining circuit" and can not be keyed-by. If it is necessary
to get by a red home ball, one needs to have a call-on from the
tower and then pull the call-on-accept lever. (or one could hook
the stop arm, or one could just trip through the damn thing).
The TA also has "automatics" that are in fact interlocking signals.
They have a lever number in the tower and they must be normaled
up before conflicting routes can be established. However, they
have one head and can be keyed-by like a pure automatic. These
are properly called "approach" signals.
There are also dwarf interlocking home signals which are never called
"home balls", but instead "jacks".
Well the very fact that block and approach signals can be keyed by after a radio call to the command centre means that they do not show Stop N' Stay. The calling-on signal that home signals give is like a Restricting on real railroads. It informs that the route is set, but block occupancy may not be clear. However if the route through the interlocking is not set the home signal will not clear to anything other then red. This extra level of restrictivity sets home signals appart. I can also think of where you might have single headed home signals. Take a 3 track line and at the end of the 3-track segment there is a Y junction. Because the #1 track's only directional option is the straight ahead (it just trails through the centre track switch) the home signal would only have one head.
On quizzes given in TO School Car, the answer to the question "What does an automatic signal displaying a RED aspect mean?" is STOP and CALL Control.
The calling-on signal that home signals give is like a Restricting on
real railroads
It has the same appearance (Red/Red/Yellow), but you do not
have to stop and acknowledge a Restricting signal as you do a
transit-style call-on.
and at the end of the 3-track segment there is a Y junction. Because the #1 track's only directional option is the
straight ahead (it just trails through the centre track switch) the home signal would only have one head.
Again, that's railroad style. In the NYCTS, this layout would
always have a double-headed home ball to protect the switch.
Whetheer the bottom head displays green or yellow when lined seems
to be a matter of signal designer preference, though.
One significant difference is that on the railroad, you are
expected to know the characteristics of the line. You have to
know where the interlockings are, which signals are home signals,
which are automatics, etc. On the transit system, your aren't
required to know anything beyond your line of sight. It's gotten
so bad they have color printouts at major junctions telling train
operators what the correct lineup is!
Pity indeed that skill requirements on NYCT have been so reduced. In my day you had to know the railroad. (in my book NYCT is as much a railroad as some that ARE legally railroads, in some cases more, e.g. PATH, SBK and others). Guess my main thought though was the railroiads involved are not necessarily all the same. On Montana Rail Link the "call on" even it it wasn't called that was getting verbal permission from the disp. to pass an "absolute" re; after stopping proceed at restricted speed. I'd imagine there are differences all over.
I've noticed that there are two head signals at locations where there is not track intersection ahead. One "stop length" north of 57th street on T1 there is one like this. I assume that it is there to protect a train crossing from B6 to B5 at 57th street from southbound trains coming from Queensbridge. Are these still considered "Home Signals?" They only seem to exist on the IND...
Dave
Well on real US railroads you need only be familliar with a route to be able to drive a train on it. This means a cab ride or two to learn the route. Automatic and non-automatic signals are plainly labeled as such (automatics have a number plate, interlocking signals do not. In the Uk, however, a driver must pass tests to be able to drive a train on a partyiciular line. Training for the tests can take weeks. Crazy.
The "call-on" is like a restricting in that it can only be shown if a route is aligned properly so that the train will not derail. This is the same for a RR restircting, although trains do not have to stop for it. I was getting at that a call-on is one step up from having to order a train past a red home signal. I call-on would be used if the next block was occupied just like a restricting.
Finally I find it hard to believe that in a route signaling system, if the reason for 2 headed signals is to slow the driver straight or diverging, that at a interlocking where a track only has one possible route (straight), the signal would only have one head. There is nothing the other head could add if the only route is the straight, hi-speed one.
Finally I find it hard to believe that in a route signaling system, if the reason for 2 headed signals is to slow the
driver straight or diverging, that at a interlocking where a track only has one possible route (straight), the signal
would only have one head. There is nothing the other head could add if the only route is the straight, hi-speed one.
That is entirely correct and logical. Nonetheless, on the New
York City Transit system, this trailing point move will always
be protected by a "home ball" with 2 heads (plus a call-on light).
The NYCTS does not relay on number plates or white permissive
discs to distinguish automatic from home signals.
In days-of-key-by, The two headed signals meant that you couldn't key by them, whereas everything else you could.
Isn't a marker signal the same thing, with two reds indicating stop and stay? (the two red aspect being associated with two head "home" signals)
There are both high and low marker signals. There are also
dwarf signals that display either a single red or a single
yellow aspect. High markers are usually used at bumping
blocks, while low markers are used to protect reverse movements.
I'm pretty sure you can (can, not necessarily may) key by a marker
signal but I'm not as sure about an interlocking dwarf signal.
I thought that _some_ markers were placed when movements aren't allowed into an interlocking from a particular track, to simplify the design paramaters......?
[The TA also has "automatics" that are in fact interlocking signals.
They have a lever number in the tower and they must be normaled
up before conflicting routes can be established. However, they
have one head and can be keyed-by like a pure automatic. These
are properly called "approach" signals.]
I guess this would explain the signal on 2 track of the Broad Street Subway that, often after one train passes, shows nothing at all for a few seconds, I imagine as they change the switch directly south of there.
And another question: why, on the Broad Street Subway (and the Market Frankford Line) are there double headed signals that are nowhere near an interlocking. (Not as if the Broad Street Subway in any way reflects the signalling on NYCT. The Broad Street Line goes by left and right on most interlocking signals, not by straight or diverging. Green over red is right, red over green is left).
iI might add that on many other roads the signal aspects you describe on the Broad St. subway exist. As a matter of fact until the IRT signal system was updated/replaced that was the type of signals the IRT had. Chicago L has that system, so soes Montana Rail Link, former BN, former NP; likewise the ex GN lines. In all the cases I mentioned indicating straight rail or diverging. In the case of a 2-headed signal nowhere near an interlocking it may be an"absolute" or stop and stay .. requiring trains to remain stopped until it clears. Just a thought. We had absolutes, one I know of anyway, on MRL that were there just to keep a train from proceeding past if red.
When I was at New Carrollton today, I saw AEM7AC 924 hauling Train #85 today. The train was on time. The engine sounded quieter.
It seems that the trip from NY was pretty well. However, one trip doesn't mean the overall performance is good. Wait until Amtrak put AEM7ACs on either Metroliners or Acela Regionals.
Chaohwa
There's a Yahoo Club known as "LIRR Commuters" which exists mainly for frustrated commuters to vent their anger at/about LIRR. Every now and then a "newsy" post comes along. The other day, one such post did...but as I titled this, it is only a RUMOR. It was originally posted at that Yahoo club by someone who is an LIRR locomotive engineer.
The post mentioned that LIRR's DE30ac's will likely have to go back to the manufacturer for some retrofitting, and that LIRR is going to lease a fleet of approximately 25 EMD GP60's from someone.
I find big holes in this rumor -- first, why wouldn't they send just 1 or 2 of the DE30ac's back at a time if need be? And what the heck would they do about HEP (head end power) for the DD's?
Anyone else heard this one yet? I thought it was a good one....
Just a quick note here. Can all you people refrain from using to term DD to describe the Double Deck cars. When I hear LIRR and DD in the same sentence I instantly think about the DD-1's that worked on the LIRR for so many years. I feel that applying the DD term to a bunch of new commuter coaches is disrespectful to those pioneering electric locomotives. Thank you for listening.
When I hear DD I think of DOUBLE DEATH!
Doulbe Diamond?
Sixth Avenue Local via Concourse.
Goodthought. As Pennsy is one of my interests I hastened to read a DD message and found it didn't mean the DD-l. Of course I have too much rail and too many years behind me.
The cars are C3's.
/*There's a Yahoo Club known as "LIRR Commuters" which exists mainly for frustrated commuters to vent their anger at/about LIRR. Every now and then a "newsy" post comes along. The other day, one such post did...but as I titled this, it is only a RUMOR. It was originally posted at that Yahoo club by someone who is an LIRR locomotive engineer.*/
I read it. Makes sense though...
/*The post mentioned that LIRR's DE30ac's will likely have to go back to the manufacturer for some retrofitting, and that LIRR is going to lease a fleet of approximately 25 EMD GP60's from someone.*/
I'm surprised EMD^H^H^H Siemens, and the LIRR aren't pointing fingers at each other...
/*I find big holes in this rumor -- first, why wouldn't they send just 1 or 2 of the DE30ac's back at a time if need be?*/
Cause there ain't enough. And they're hardly any better than the DE-30s anyway.
/*And what the heck would they do about HEP (head end power) for the DD's? */
What about it? The A/C doesn't work in those cars anyway...
Why did the LIRR go with a fleet of all hi-tech locos. Wouldn't it have been better to get like 2/3 of the DM30's and then use the leftover $$ to retrofit the Geeps with 3rd rail shoes. After all the Geeps use DC traction motors so all they would need is some control equipment to get to voltage from the shoes to the motors. They would be AC/DC, but how much extra tractive effort and acceleration does one need on branch lines. I'm also surprised that the LIRR didn't convert its Geeps and Mups to FL-9 style electro-diesels earlier.
Most of LIRR's Geeps have been sold off by now. A small handful went tot he New York & Atlantic, and the rest were shipped to Altoona to be rebuild by a motive-power leasing firm.
I'd agree with one point, EMD, Siemens, and LIRR are most likely pointing fingers.
As for the HEP (Head End Power) it does a lot more than make the a/c work. It supplies ALL of the electricity for the passenger cars -- for the a/c, yes -- but also for lighting, probably some of the braking system, door controls, etc.
They wouldn't be able to just hook up to the C3's and pull them around with GP60's. They're gonna need some kind of head-end-power supply somewhere. (No, it wouldn't be possible to just run some wiring from the GP60, either.)
05/12/2000
The only thing I heard concerning this is that the DE-30's will go back for new main generators which are giving trouble. I didn't hear about the leasing of equipment. Nice, now all the GP-38's are gone.
Bill Newkirk
There are still some old cars left and those dinky engines that look like switchers (100 series).
Has anyone learned this hard lesson when they find out that the SIR runs at 30-minute (or even 1-hour at night) intervals?
By the way, has anyone seen 5-car or 2-car trains on the SIR? Even in midday, SIR trains are 4 cars long. I assume 2 car trains are for the night service.
Note: Tompkinsville, Pleasant Plains and Atlantic have short platforms which means you must be in the last car in order to get off at those stations. Kind of a pain in the neck isn't it?
Nick
Tompkinsville, Pleasant Plains and Atlantic have short platforms which means you must be in the last car in order to get off at those stations. Kind of a pain in the neck isn't it?
Not really. I'm sure that the one or two passengers per week that those stations handle can easily plan on being in the appropriate car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So Staten Islanders are not taking advantage of free travel then?
SIR has tried running three and two cars but to save money (the manpower to break up and put back the trains and the need to turn A cars on the wye) they went back to 4 car sets.
Tompmkinsville has a very long platform, could handle almost an 8 car subway train. It has been under "re"construction for years. I don't know when or if they will ever get around to fixing it. When fare collection switched to St. George they used to put a Conductor there as well as Grasmere to collect the fare >G<. Now that they only collect at St. George who knows when they will finish the repairs.
As to Atlantic, it was always been a flag stop since I grew up on SI. I beleive (HANK??) there was once a fire long time ago and because of low ridership from that station it was converted to a flag stop one door type of thing. Tompkinsville used to be listed in the public time table as a flag stop, even during the day back in the 80's but they have changed that.
I don't know when the last time you were at Tompkinsville was, but it most definately is NOT (and never has been) long enough for even a 4-car train. Even when the platform extensions were finished, the first car was closed at Tompkinsville. The Tompkinsville station renovation has been held up for the last 5 (yes, five) years, due to the default of the DOT contractor who rebuilt the Victory Blvd bridge. The staircase was condemned immediately after it was completed, and the finished section of the platform was unusable. Now that the stairway has finally been finished, the Hannah St end of theplatform is being worked on, and should be done before the end of the summer. Until then, you must be in the last car to get on or off at Tompkinsville.
Atlantic has always been a single-car platform, Nassau and Richmond Valley were not extended, and in fact were the last remaining wood and asphalt platforms on the line. The ultimate plan is to close Nassau and Atlantic, and build a new station at Arthur Kill Rd. Richmond Valley is in the rebuild process.
They still run 2-car trains most weekends, 4 car trains all other times, but only the 735 express from Great Kills runs regularly with 5 car trains.
-Hank
There is substantially more ridership than that at all 3 stations.
-Hank
The SIR is timed to meet the ferries. When the ferries run every half hour so do the trains. Likewise when the ferries run every hour.
The trains never run less often than the ferries. So if the SIR runs at half-hour intervals, the ferries are running at half-hour intervals. Check the schedule that's available at St. George, and you will see that. It is somewhat unfair to intra-borough riders, but it's main use is to get you to the ferry.
[It is somewhat unfair to intra-borough riders,
but it's main use is to get you to the ferry.]
This is true, and since the MTA does not collect revenue on intra-borough rides, it becomes an extra expense that can be eliminated. That is why the SIR trains operate on a ferry schedule. Whenever I take the SIR, I do my best (if time allows) to get on and off at the Tompkinsville Station. I don't have to pay a fare and it is only a short 10-minute walk to the ferry.
-Daniel
They operate to meet the ferry schedule because that's where a great majority of the ridership is coming or going.
They eliminated the fare on-board the train not so much as a cost-cutting move, but because of the Metrocard. They had no way of collecting MC fares on-board the train, and fare controls at the stations would have been prohibitively expensive, since they'd need to install everything from scratch, including buildings at many stations. They collected very few fares outside of St. Geeorge even when they DID have on-board collection. In any case, even riders not going to/from St. George eventually pay, because they go to or from a connecting bus. Unless you work downtown or in St. George, getting off at Tompkinsville and walking is pointless, since you get a free transfer with Metrocard to any of the subway and bus lines the ferry meets in Manhattan. In fact, using a connecting bus at many stations is also free (double transfer).
Oh, that short walk is all uphill, and you'll usually miss the ferry the train makes, which adds time to your commute. Most people would rather have the extra 1/2 hour to be productive, rather than wait for the boat.
-Hank
SIR trains are timed to meet the ferry to Manhattan, and always has been. 95% of the ridership is either going to or from St. George, so that's the way they set their schedule.
Rush hours there's a train about every 10 minutes from Huguenot and points west, but 30 minute service east of there during the AM rush. PM service is a little better, but if you board a train between Tompkinsville and Bay Terrace, you have to change trains at Great Kills, as all local trains during the PM rush terminate there. The local (for example) would be the train from the 5pm boat, and the express would be from the 5:15 boat. The express winds up less than 5 minutes behind the local at Great Kills.
-Hank
The end doors are unlocked though, so people walk through. Wait a second, I thought the trains had 6 cars! I usually don't bother counting, but once remember seeing a midday train a few years ago with 6 cars. Is SIR OPTO, or are those cab cars in the middle unoccupied.
SIR isn't OPTO yet, but will be eventually. There are STILL ex-B&O employees working on the line. Longest train that can be in-service is 5 cars, since that's all the platforms can handle (in fact, St. George platforms are only 5 cars) OOS trains have been as long as 8 cars between Tottenville and Clifton and St. George.
Engineer in the first car, conductor in the last car. Trainmen are mostly gone.
-Hank
Another question, do they ever use the higher track numbers, like 8-10? What else is on the roll sign, other than Tottenville Local, Tottenville Express, Great Kills Local. And do they ever use the flip boards?
There's Great Kills Express, South Beach Local, Arlington Express, and Arlington Local. Those flip boards were installed 10 years ago, and have never been used. No one knows where the controller is, according to the line superintendant (and that was 6 years ago)
-Hank
Those routes are on the R44's roll signs?
Wayne
No, the roll signs at St. George. SIR cars have only end signs, which have only St. George, Great Kills, Huguenot, and Tottenville Express and Local, along with Not In Service (red). The Express signs are red, the Local are blue.
-Hank
How does one know from which track the next train departs?
A blinking green light, plus people can look at the time under the destination.
A blinking blue or green light, along with a lit rollsign. If the scoll numbers are still functional (not all of them have all the slots working anymore) the time is displayed and also lit.
-Hank
I guess you'd have to walk through the cab when the B end of one car is coupled to the A end of the next. (Like #6207 on the G)
Generally, people don't change cars. The line gets very few new riders.
-Hank
I have seen people change cars many times, but that's because they had to run to get on, and they ended up at the wrong end.
But as I said, it's not a normal occurance. People usually picj the car they want to ride in when they get on, especially since the majority of the exits are at the west end of stations, Old Town, Huguenot, and Tottenville being the exceptions.
-Hank
Sometimes, I take the long, scenic way into Brooklyn. Take the subway to the ferry, take the ferry to the train, take the train to Grasmere, then catch the S53 bus bound for Brooklyn, then take the R train from there. I recommend it with an unlimited ride MetroCard.
THE GREATEST SUBWAYS SERIES OF METROCARD HOLDERS IS LYING!!!
The SIR has two fare zones, which I call Zone A (St. George) and Zone B (Tompkinsville to Tottenville). The Base Fare is $0.00. Travel entirely within Zone B has this base fare. Travel between Zone A and Zone B has the $1.50 fare. It just so happens that so many people are travelling between the two zones, that they don't recognise the existance of these two zones.
i believe that the inconvenience caused by sick
passengers to thousands of healthy subway customers
has to be prevented... after discussing this issue
with my handlers (attendants), i am considering
several possible solution to the sick customer
syndrome ...
1st possibility... all customers entering the system
will be given a liquid crystal pendant to wear from
their necks... the liquid crystal display is
sensitive to customer's energy levels...a person in
good health will have a clear color on their
pendant... anyone with a fever or serious infection
will have a bright red color... anyone who is
undergoing massive system failure will have an ice
blue color... the crystal pendants will be inspected
by roving health inspectors who will randomly patrol
the cars... anyone with red or blue display will be
removed from the cars and ejected from the system
before they cause needless delays to their fellow
passengers...
2nd possibility... in the event that the liquid
crystal technology does not prove to be reliable,
customers will be asked to get regular monthly
physical checkups from their private doctors... the
doctors will be asked to assess the likelihood of
the customer becoming gravely ill on the way to and
from work... doctors will provide customers with
notes indicating that they have been recently
examined... in the event that a customer does not
have a note certifying his health, roving bands of
health inspectors will randomly perform physical
examinations on customers... customers will be
screened for heart disease, stroke, psychotic
episodes, and colon cancer...
although these measures may be somewhat invasive of
people's privacy, i believe that they are essential
to the efficient running of the subway system...
i will be announcing a series of town meetings so that i can listen to the thoughts of the people....
YAWN!!!!
I suppose you are the disignated SubTalk 'Yawnmeister'?
Yawning is the first indication of a need for a Colonoscopy.
Early detection is essential to smooth running S U B W A Y Systems.
Call 1-800-FAT-BUTT.
avid
I fail to see the link between yawning (an indication of a need for oxygen) and a colonoscopy. Then again, I have to remember that the post is coming from you so we know it makes sense to at least one person.
Do I see signs of bitterness? I like to see you try to write a good story like avid or keep SOME comedy on this board like heypaul.
I'm waiting...
Why does everybody think that this board even needs comedy or those long drawn out stories.
This isn't SubLaugh. When one contributes piles full of information about real things, then they deserve a commendation.
So when one subtalker puts down another subtalker it called contributing piles of information?
It's piles of SOMETHING...
-Hank :)
You're one to talk!
You are correct to that extent. However, the person in question:
A) Is not humerous.
B) Contributes nothing to the exchange of information.
C) It takes up space and time
I have no problem if he wants to work out his material or if you want to read it. If Dave doesn't mind the waste of space then who am I to say otherwise. On the otherhand, who are you to say that I can not express my opinion regarding what I perceive as a waste of time. It just ain't funny.
Do have a kid.
Arti
I have a better plan. Doctors or nurses or other medical professionals could be the only ones allowed to issue Metrocards and then only after a checkup. They would be signed by the user upon their recieving the card to prevent transfer. Token booth clerks could be trained as EMT's and if someone really needed a metro card they could preform a spot check.
Wait wait. I have an even better plan. We cna actually use sick people to IMPROVE the subways. How you ask? Simple. Sick people posess great power. Well their body dosen't but their soul does. If you pass out on the subway train TA employees will be instructed to take the passenger to an abandoned station or out of service subway car where they would be left to expire. The stations and cars would have been enchanted beforehand (there are pleanty of "occult" people in the city and most of them don't have jobs anyway) to trap the souls within the NYCS. Once trapped they could be put to work speeding up the trains, scareing away vandals or graffiti artists, holding up the Manny B, keeping the Redbirds running, etc. The third rails could be modified to create a megnetic field that would prevent the sould from leaving the system.
Of course there would be warnings and disclaimers to inform the traveling public that if they die on the system, the TA will keep their soul. They can sugar coatit be offering the kext of kin a lifetime metrocard for "services rendered".
mike... you raise an interesting issue concerning the soul... i think the distribution of seed pods is at such an advanced stage in new york city, that there few people left here with a soul... this state of soullessness is quite obvious on this message bored...
....yeah, heypaul, I also get the feeling that the soul-less and humorless inhabit certain areas of rapid transit yards just north of Manhattan....hmmmm....
i think you've hit on something doug... that would be an ideal distribution point for the pods... put them under the seats of the subway cars, and any customer who nods off on a slow moving r-68 gets a makeover...
Uh-oh, that's all the more reason for me to avoid R-68s....
Lest we forget today May l2th is the 45th anniversary of the death of the last of the once great Manhattan els.Sorry to admit I only rode it once, on the last day (in Manmhattan anyway-rode it in the Bronx regularly afterwards.) as I was such a gung ho kid on the IRT of the 50's. I have been sorry ever since that I din't ride it more often but that's life. I've been a fan of it ever since. Long live the 3rd ave el.. and the rest of the Manhattan els, if only in memory.
Didn't the 27th anniversary of the closure of the Bronx portion just pass as well?
Yes - the 149 St - Gun Hill Road portion closed April 29,1973. Remember it well - I was then on the faculty of a Bronx high school located near the 3d Ave el route.
To me the closure date was a few years before that-the date they got rid of the World's Fair & LowV cars off the line. I was more interested in the equipment than the structure.
Inndeed! I worked the 3rd Ave. shuttle occasionally in l970 and l971, like everything else in life I just missed the World's Fair cars (as a motorman anyway...had of course been a passenger). I had no feelings as a fan for the Rl2's on that line and as for the line itself the Westchester Ave to West Farms and Upper Broadway elevated lines both had far nicer stations, etc. If nothing else the negative was an el being replaced by a bus. Ohwell.
I am interested to know whether, at the time the El was closed, it was generally thought that it would be replaced by a subway in the then-foreseeable future?
The Second Avenue subway had just been funded again. If the politicians hadn't wasted the money, it would have been replaced by that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, the Second Avenue subway was supposed to run up the Northeast Corridor to Hunts Point Avenue and then to East 180th Street, so it would not have been a direct replacement for the 3rd Avenue line. Around 1968 there had been a proposal for rapid transit along Park Avenue in the Bronx, but there were never any serious plans drawn up.
Plans were made and $500 million allocatyed approx. l947 for a 2nd Ave subway. Actually it was planned sooner, with the 3rd Ave, el being held until a replacement subway could be built. That gave 8 years 47-55 no subway but the 3rd ave. el was shut down and demolished. The money secretly went into new cars, fluorescent lights in some subway sttations, painting etc. Work that should have been paid for otherways. Then there was a l967 bond issue that included a 2nd Ave. subway... anybody honestly believe we'll ever see it? Trust the politicians..ha ha. The big deal 63 st. tunnel, and no additional trackage to connect to in Queens..Queens Blvd. line as overl;oaded or worse than Lex. which now handles the whole east side alone. Archer Ave..trains not going as far as they did before routing into Archer.. gimme a break. Maybe we'llsee a modern 2nd ave. el some day???
The "stubway" is the only realistic 2nd Ave. plan, but politics will kill that as well. Any vote for a "full length" 2nd Ave line is a sure way to assure it will never get constructed.
I trying to determine if there was anything left of the base of the stations on the PROW south of 143rd St. I remember before the wood el cars were replaced by the subway cars, the structure to the river remained for a while. The trains were turned back using that part of the structure until the release signals were ready at 149th St. I can not remember if that coincided with the use of the Steinway and other low-v subway cars. I remember when the subway third rail was installed and the old MUDCs were stored on the center track below 177th St.
What little the memory of a then l2-l3 year old can offer wooden cars both MUDC and Q were in service until sometime around December l956, when they were replaced by solid trains of Steeinways, 6 cars. This was later (when?) reduced to the 4 motors Steinway or Worlds's Fiair with a Low-V trailer in the middle. But I'm almost positive this had nothing to do with relaying trains via l43 St being discontinued because my guess is that the crossovers north of l49 st. were operating by the time summer of 55 was over. Don't swear by it, that's the best I canm remember.
i don't seem able to conceal my anger about things...
rather than continue to express it or cover it with humor, i am retiring to a simpler world at ustalk...
i hope to be able to express genuine humor there...
i have met a number of good people here... i hope to continue to get to know them...
i wish you all good health and peace...
Paul, don't let a couple of cynics spoil things for you. Life can't be all seriousness. Please hang around ... we need you here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, Paul, as the Anon y Mouse has said, don't abandon us ... you and a few others have brought many smiles to my lips. It a side of this site that makes it a pleasure to come here every day.
To those that have been throwing rocks your way ... most I haven't read because I either didn't answer CRANK'S call or I KILLED them.
Mr t__:^)
Oh no, not again. Aw come one, why do you have to keep leaving. I didn't even know there was something wrong. I would guess that most of the regulars here consider you an Internet Friend and by constantly running out on us you are betraying that friendship. Its like your some sort of drug dealer. You got this MB hooked on heypaul and then you leave us all to go through withdrawl. That's not very nice. Please come back, you know this is where you belong.
Lets try to take a vote on whether he should stay. I think it will be 50 to 1 for staying !!!
Stay!!! Stay!!! Stay!!! We NEED you.
Lets try to take a vote on whether he should stay. I think it will be 50 to 1 for staying !!!!!!
I don't know about that. Some time away might be beneficial for many of us.
It seems like many of the old-time regulars have grown increasingly angry/intolerant in recent weeks.
When people who don't know each other face-to-face start discussing politics and religion, things disintegrate fast.
Perhaps there just isn't that much left to discuss in terms of transit systems. I've found my own interest waning recently -- most of my questions have been answered and curiosities satisfied. Now, SubTalk has become more of a soap opera of who's getting into it with who over what.
I think there are quite a few of the regulars who could stand to take a month off from SubTalk. Some of us would probably never come back. Others of us would, with perhaps a better appreciation for why we visit this site in the first place.
Chuck
heypaul,
As you can see, there are many people here on subtalk who don't want to see you go, and are even willing to take a vote to have you stay.
If anything, lets talk about the people who are spoiling things here on subtalk. Remember when this board was not flooded with crap...like last fall?? We have a password program here on subtalk, and those who continue to violate the boards gvuidlines, should have their posting privlages revoked. Perhaps it is time for a non-binding subtalker vote on who should be removed, and Dave can make a final decision, or at least give a final warning.
When it comes to the point that good subtalkers like you want to leave...something has to be done about those who love to spoil things.
Just My Two Cents,
Nick
Stay or go as you please. Makes no difference to me. I come here for just one reason - to talk about trains and transit. I'm tired of the politics. I'm tired of the race baiting and I'm bored by what I consider feeble attempts at humor. Again, my taste, not everyone elses. If you need a public mandate, you know at least 4 people want you to stay. Let's just agree to disagree in public as we've agreed to do privately.
we haven't always disagreed... i appreciated your honesty several months ago when you answered my questions about how mdbf were calculated... we were in agreement the other day about my suspicions that that i was getting off on my own strange sense of humor... we both desire to see less politics on subtalk with the exception of my candidacy [ another febrile attempt :-) ]
Perhaps so. Perhaps part of my anger is the linkage between you and our resident race-baiter. If so, I appologize for that anger. Comments on the humor still stand, however. Then agian, I'm more of a Rodney Dangerfield type of person.
Paul ain't leaving. I just got a slide scanner and I'm posting scrapyard pictures of his apartment :-)~ He has to stay to see them. I'm painting my bike in bright fire colors and since my dughter may require eyeglasses, she will get the Woody Allen style. See, I'm not funny! Thats why we need Heypaul. For those of us who don't have a sense of humor, we will at least have R9 sounds.
inspector callahan, if i may use your real name...
did your clip of the conflicted r9 compressor ever
get aired here?... it is a wonderful 10 seconds of
the compressor kicking in and falling out several
times i still have the clip you sent me, and i would
love to see it get some air time here... perhaps it
could clear some of the rancor out of the air....
Last night there was a head-on crash of two self-propelled railway vehicles in an under-construction water tunnel 400 feet below a Boston suburb. Here is the link to the Boston Globearticle. From the TV pictures, the cars had the look of the Dallas Tandy "subway cars," though I would assume these were diesel-powered since I didn't see any 3rd rail or catenary on the videos.
Dallas...Tandy Subway Cars??
As a former resident of Fort Worth (through my USAF service), I can assure you that Tandy Center (former M&O Subway) is still in Fort Worth, where the west begins....
Sorry about that Phil! I must have taken the wrong turn-out at the homeball.
Hi Todd:
They were probably battery electric. See bmec.com for some neat info on mining equipment. The accident was a terrible tragedy.
Two separate contract woes at Boston's MBTA. One may result in disruption of Commuter Rail service. Here's the link to the Boston Globearticle.
There is a service advisory ad running in today's papers concerning the E and F service for the next sereral weekends. There will be no E service and the F will run in two sections as it uses BMT tracks to 34th St., Manhattan. This leaves the stations at 23rd St.-Ely Ave., Lexington Ave., and Fifth Ave. closed. Where does this leave the G passengers with no Court Sq.-23rd St. transfer? There was no mention of extending the G. Yes, I know the G can be taken south to the L, but wouldn't extending service for a F/R transfer make more sense?
Gary, I hear that there would be a shuttle bus connecting Court Sq station and the Queens Plaza station to connect with F/R service.
Nick
Better, but that information still should have been in the ad.
It was in the ad I saw. It said thre would be a shuttle bus connecting Queens Plaza and Court Square.
It's in a separate ad. The oly one I saw was at the Queens Blvd. North entrance at Van Wyck Blvd.
per of the official bulletin:
There will eb a shuttle bus connecting these stations:
45 rd/Courthouse Square (7), Queensborough Plaza (7), Queens Plaza (EFGR), Cour Square (G). Stop at the booth for a G.O. Ticket.
Note to my Bus Friend in Queens: Here again since we are providing the bus, the G.O. Tickets are **not** good on your fleet but only on our *shuttle bus*
It proves again that what's easier for the TA is what governs, not what is best for the passengers.
Remember when the 60th street tubes were closed, the terminated the trains at 42nd-Times Square and then still had the trains going to 57th to turn around. Of course w/o passengers. To get to 59th and Lex they were forced to get to Grand Central and then the 4/5/6.
A single track shuttle could of been arranged, but that would probably been beyind there mental capabilities.
Was the 53rd st track in really that bad condition that it couldn't have waited the 63rd st connector to be completed?
Arti
I hate to ask: but what are you talking about??? And what does the 60 St. track have to do with the G train, if that is what your subject line even means...
Ignore the previous response... I hadn't seen the original comments....
When the 60th St tubes were closed last summer, they were working south of Lexington Ave station on both tracks, so there was NO chance of a single track shuttle. As a result, service on the BMT Broadway line was terminated at 42nd St because it left the traveler at a station where connections could be made to other Queens-bound lines as well as a connection to the East Side and 59/Lex. if the train had continued in service to 57 & 7, lost passengers would have had to travel BACK to 42nd St before continuing on to Queens.
(As an aside, having seen some silly things from your company, I wouldn't worry to much about things being "beyind there mental capabilities" at the TA)
There is a pocket after QP and I imagine it would be easier to have the G go t QP and cross the express tracks. On weekends, how much time should this take? Or, have G trains wrong rail from Court Square to QP with a T/O at each end. At QP, have the train immediately head out in the opposite direction, the T/O at the end of the now Brooklyn-bound train goes to the back of the next Queens-bound train and will head back to Brooklyn that way.
The track at QP used to be used to turn around G trains way back when they terminated on weekends there instead of Court Square. Because of the 63st connector project, it needs to be resignalled and therefore can't be used.(not sure why, saw it in a post a while back).
Then they can still do the second plan with wrong railing trains to QP.
No, because both the F & R's are on the local track.
Actually, they could run the shuttle from the Brooklyn Bound express track and switch it to the G just west of QP, and have the Brooklyn bound track at Court Sq used solely for the shuttle.
Or, here's a thought, extend it to 179th and do away with the F. Releive conjestion in the 60st tunnel (had to wait 5 minutes at EVERY STOP!) That would be interesting, no F, use G. No E, use R. Let the locals take over!
I was actually going to suggest that; had typed it at the end of the message, and then erased it. But they probably wouldn't want to try to take away direct Manhattan service to 179th (they tried this at night for a while), and have all those extra people pile onto the R at Queens Plaza.
I was on the 6 train around 1 PM yesterday, there was someone who was recording sounds b/w 51st and 14th streets. Anyone from here?
Arti
Well, I can tell you this: It wasn't me. I was in class at that time.
Does anyone know where I can get R40 & R68 subway cars models?
I'm planing to build the Brighton line El structure.
If anyone know, let me know.
As a veteran oif some 70 scratch built main line RR and rapid transit cars, in S scale no less, can I suggest you try building them yourself? It can be quite rewarding once you get the knack. Of course my stuff was all boxy prewar stoff like the old IRT and els, but I expect you're younger than I am and can learn techniques easier.You may not get the exact trucks, etc but in HO anyway the streamline car trucks aren't far off... just a little big. Look at a Walther's catalog for detail parts and raw materials.
At the present time none of the R-types you mentioned are available as models. You'll have to scratch-build your own until someone (MTS perhaps??) gets around to offering them.
Currently, MTS Imports (see model directory elsewhere at nycsubways.org) has the R-32 and R-38 cars in HO scale. They are made in nickel-plated brass and cost around $700 for a set. They look great but are not practical for the average modeler due to their price.
Good luck,
Doug aka BMTman
Currently, MTS Imports (see model directory elsewhere at nycsubways.org) has the R-32 and R-38 cars in HO scale.
Yeah? I thought MTS sold out both runs. Maybe I'll get myself an R-38 set.
MTS is mulling production of an R-40 set, last I heard, but I haven't heard anything definitive for a while. He was looking for interest.
--Mark
The red caboos on 45th st between 5Ave and 6th ave had some r - types but Inever save r40 or r 68s . Its been a while so I'm not positive there are any at all. If he does be prepared to leave body parts and first born child. Prices are high!
avid
[be prepared to leave body parts and first born child. Prices are high!]
Avidreader is right about the price! R-38s run about $60 a pop (assembled and painted) and the unassembled and unpainted cars run about $45 each. If you are looking to build a 10 car train, look elsewhere unless you are rolling in the cash. The Red Caboose is too expensive. I once paid $250 for a Metro-North Genesis, and now I see that they are actually much cheaper, and I am stupid. Allen, the Professor and Kibri the cat are still there after over 20 years (kibri wasn't there at the beginning of course.
-Daniel
On route 22 ,,north from White Plains Hospital ,,nr Hamilton Street,,there is a RR Modeling Place that has the Subway Cars,, with Sound effects,,etc
I dont remember the name of the place,sorry
Steve
Bronxville.Westchester Cty
In the fall, I'm planning to begin construction of an N scale version
of the Franklin Shuttle. I was hoping to build a contemporary version
using R68s, but I decided to settle on a early to mid-70s version using R32s. Images Replicas is now taking reservations
for N scale brass R32s that will be available in the fall. They are
expensive - $400 for a two car set (one powered and one dummy), but
they should be nice models
You'll find an announcement about these models on the Model SubTalk
BBS at:
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/ModelSubTalk/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
I've seen the Images Replicas N scale version of the R46 and they
are quite nice. The company maintains a site at:
http://www.imagesreplicas.com/new.htm
Have fun!
Dave
..........I do wish you could get the R -1 ......-100 101 102 103 and so on subway models !! ......
Time-Warner's Metroguide channel has been showing reruns of various old shows set in New York, including some short-lived ones never seen in syndication.
Last night I bumped into the opening titles of SERPICO (NBC, 1976) starring David Birney. For a few seconds, we see him at a platform with a black-on-white sign (only the second digit, a '7' was visible) and what looked like 1575, with its' distinctive two-tone grey exterior and red stripe, going by.
Metro is also showing THE BRONX ZOO (NBC, 1987) starring Ed Asner. The opening sequence shows a montage of various 'Bronx' scenes, including a shot of a graffiti-scarred 215th Street station on the '1', which of course, is in Manhattan! Funny how with all the el stations in the Bronx, the location scouts choose one of the only ones in Manhattan. They probably assumed that a street numbered in the 200s must be the Bronx, and you know what happens when you ASSUME-
BROOKLYN BRIDGE (CBS, 1991-93) is also said be rerunning on Metro after several years on Bravo. I recall an episode in which the older son was accepted to a 'private school', the Bronx High School of Science. His dad was describing all the trains and buses he'd have to take from Bensonhurst to Bedford Park- incorrectly, of course.
[The opening sequence shows a montage of various 'Bronx' scenes, including a shot of a graffiti-scarred 215th Street station on the '1', which of course, is in Manhattan! Funny how with all the el stations in the Bronx, the location scouts choose one of the only ones in Manhattan. They probably assumed that a street numbered in the 200s must be the Bronx, and you know what happens when you ASSUME-]
Good catch Howard. That's the part of Manhattan that's on the mainland, right? Didn't it have something to do with changing the course of the Harlem River?
No, 225 station is in Marble Hill.
The rest of what you said is correct.
Brooklyn Bridge didn't have any subway footage at all. Since it was set in 1956, they would have had to bring out the old museum stuff for authenticity, a la Class of '44.
One episode had a mockup of the right field wall at Ebbets Field.
Actually, there was one episode that depicted the Bay Parkway station. Only problem is that it was shown with a sidewalk stairway!!!
I'm not sure where Brooklyn Bridge was filmed, probably on a studio backlot in California. No doubt a few liberties were taken. The subway was mentioned on occasion.
The weirdest part of that show was hearing Marion Ross (Mrs. C on Happy Days) speaking in that foreign accent. I kepr waiting for her to say, "Sit on it".
I saw #064 on a track located between tracks 33 and 34 of Grand Central. It doesn't have a platform, so it has no identification more than what I give you. The area it was in is well-lit, and the loco has other markings that say that it is a subway locomotive. I wonder how and when it got there. Was it towed, or did it come on its own power?
-I think that this isn't new news, but I did take some pictures of it if anyone wants to see it. They haven't been developed, though. If they're good enough, maybe they'll be on the locomotive page of this site.
I forget where I read it, but Metro-North RR either borrowed or leased a couple of NYCTA's locomotives specifically for tunnel work in GCT.
Do they still have those ex-Niagara Junction electrics working GCT?
05/12/2000
I just recieved an E-mail from a customer of mine from Australia! He asked me whether or not there is a publication of any kind about the #7 Flushing Line. Does anybody out there know if a publication on the history of this line exists or not?
Thank You,
Bill Newkirk
I don't know of anything published specifically on the #7/Flushing line. Unfortunately we're not like London where there are lots of published, easily accessible, current, and even official books on the history of the system. That being said, we've got some stuff here on the site obviously.
..........it sure shoots an nice senic vidieo and is one of my favorite lines to shoot......
I cant wait until this fall to re shoot it again ..........the # 7 line day and nightime this time with ""nightshot ""
Too bad you couldn't go back in time and shoot when all those great signs were up and lighted...[i.e. Breyers, Silvercup, etc...]
Don't forget Swingline and Stevens TV on 52nd and QB. I understand that Stevens closed recently and the city wants the property for a school or police station.
I pass by the old Stevens a lot, and there is a sign that says that it will soon be a PC Richard & Son.
Are they in competition with Mac Richard & Son?
Steven's (now gonna be PC Richards) is located on 50 Street and Queens Blvd. Another electronic store returns to Woodside. Years back, Fast Break which is located on the North side of Queens Blvd and 48 Street used to be a Newmark and Lewis. I got 2 questions about the 7:
a) 2 weeks ago when the 7 wasn't going past Queensboro Plaza, I saw all of the front and signs say Times Square. Don't they have signs that say Queensboro Plaza?
b) Last week I saw a Willets Point Shea Stadium 7 pull into Main Street Flushing with passengers. All signs said Willets Point Shea Stadium. WASSUP with that?
R36Gary
It's possible that some 7 trains may terminate at Willets Point during sporting events such as the US Open. Interestingly, this is not normally done during Mets games.
...........thank you i always wondered about how those old classic signs looked back in the good old days
Since it is on the National Historic District Register, mayhap Uncle Sam might have some info?
Now if he was a Sea Beach fan (old #4, now "N") he'd be in business because there have been three such books on my line. In fact I am bidding on E-Bay for a book that my wife (she's doing the bidding for me) says is called, I think, "A Ride on the Sea Beach"---or something like that. I will know today if I have won the bid. To my colleagues on this site, keep rooting for me.
Fred,
Could you give me a writeup for the bibliography if you win the bid?
I have a copy of Fausser's Sea Beach to Coney Island. What's the third book?
-Dave
Dave, I would have loved to but at the last minute my wife got outbidded and she couldn't put in a new bid. I told her to go $10,00 more before the bidding stopped but she thought that $30,00 was too high. What a bummer. I would love to get the book you have, though.Is there someplace I could order "The Sea Beach to Coney Island"? There was one book on-line that is out of print, written by some person with an Italian last name which I can'r remember. I'll try to look it up and get it back to you.
Bob: What a rockhead I am. The book my wife was bidding on was the one you mentioned: "The Sea Beach to Coney Island". I never did get the official name of it and made a guess. As long as it was about the Sea Beach I didn't care about titles. Some rummy put in a last bid 30 seconds before the deadline and we lost out. The book I couldn't remember this morning was by a guy name Panetta called "The Sea Beach Express". It's out of print and I have been unable to buy it, but I'm going to try and get the one you have.
Bill, You might find this of interest:
By 1907, August Belmont, Jr. and others had completed a tunnel between Queens & Manhattan. In September and October of that year NY&QC, then a subsidy of the IRT, ran trolley cars between two loops at Forth Avenue and 42nd Street in Manhattan, and 21st Street and 50th Street in Queens. The line was closed on October 23rd, but was not sold to the City of New York until 1913. Two years later work began in Queens to extended the line to Queensboro Plaza. In June of that year the "Steinway" tunnel was re-opened as part of the "Queensboro Subway". We now know it as part of Belmont's IRT, "Flushing Line", also called the #7 line.
One of the sources for the above was "BRT Trolley Lines in Queens" by Vincent F. Seyfried 1959 (there is a re-print, Shoreline at Branford may have some copies)
I've been working on a history of Queens Surface Corp. that may get started again because Motor Coach Age has asked a colleague to do one on the company ... I've offered to help him with the pre-bus part.
Mr t__:^)
In 1907, Queens streets were not numbered.
He probably means that as the streets are called now. BTW, it's not 21st Street and 50th Street, it's 21st Street and 50th Avenue. Big difference.
I wrote a paper on the subway in New York, and I live 2 blocks from the 7. I have a little bit of info I can write. You can check some books from Clifton Hood, Stan Fischler, Brian Cudahy, etc. It basically started because of Jackson Heights (my neighborhood.) These new apartments advertised as a nice residential neighborhood which would steer away from the hustle & bustle of Manhattan. Plus the tunnel at Jackson Avenue made it possible to get from LIC to Grand Central in 5 minutes, as opposed to 30 by ferry. This info could also be useful for our buddy John Rocker (you believe the "phans" in Philly gave him a standing O). Anyways, in case anybody needs that info, just thought I'd present it.
"Broadway (IRT) Jorge" Catayi
N.Y.C. Bus & Subway "4" Dummies - COMING SOON
You may wish to consult Section 11 from the April 5 1964 issue of the NY Times. It may be available on microfilm in a library.
Would someone tell me the distance on Hudson-Bergen from Exchange Place to 34th Street, Bayonne? Reports talk of a 7.5 mile system, but I presume that includes a mile or so to West Side Avenue. I was unable to find mileposts or distance markers on the system. Thanks.
The distance from Exchange Place to 34th street is 6.25 miles. The spur from Liberty park to West Side avenue is 1.75 miles.
I also have a question for those knolegeable in the HBLR: Does 21st Century Ril operate any work trains on the system? If so, how do they negotiate the sharp turs?
-Daniel
The work equipment I've seen are construction equipment and trucks with rubber tires. They fit flanged wheels to them via a gadget that raises and lowers the flanged wheels at the press of a button.
I'll be in Atlanta for a week starting Wednesday(we're taking Slamtrak there instead of a plane so we'll leave Tuesday).
We're staying in Marietta so how far are we from a MARTA station. I'll most likely be able to spend most of the days exploring the city on my own, so any help/places to see would be appreciated.
You will be kinda far from any station, but you can use Cobb Community Transit (CCT) bus system which connects to Arts Center station with a free transfer.
You'll probably be able to ride the whole system in probably a day. go to www.itsmarta.com and they got some links and info for attractions and stuff like that.
How far from the city is Arts Center?
Arts Center is in Atlanta, in Midtown. And it's only 1/2 mile or less away from the Amtrak station, no direct link to the station, though, only via bus. If you mean from Marietta to Arts Center, it's about 18 miles.
I've only ridden the CCT once, and I heard it has infrequent service, you might be better off using a taxi to get to the station or getting a ride from someone.
that was the one thing i could not figure out about atlanta !! why the AMTRAK and marta rail system could
not be linked together for transfer from one to another... especiallt back in 1985 1986 when i worked for
Jasper Construction Company R 20 roadway construction project there at the I 75 - I 85 road improvement
project there !!..........makes no sense to me how the arts center station and the lindberg station nowhere near
the AMTRAK station .........( oh well) .....there is a bus I think the # 10 runs from the arts center station
past the AMTRAK station and ends in lenox mall the transfer is free from both martas stations ....
as best i can remember !!
it was planned that were was going to be a station at the amtrak station, but it never got built. besides, i really doubt the amtrak station here in atlanta is ever packed with passengers wanting to transfer to MARTA, unfortunatly.
.........I just knew this was going to be fixed when we rebuilt the 75 -85 freeway.......... wrong !!!...
I was wrong !!!!! and marta rail not being anywhere near fulton county stadium ( HANK ARRON FIELD )....
was another mistake , the georgia hill community there could have been served there also !!!
do they still refuse to run the trains even after a late night game there ?? ( after 1200 am ) .........
and the Braves fans fans have to wait until 5 30 am in the morning to get a train home !!!
i think MARTA does a decent job shuttling passengers between turner field and five points (or west end, i can't remember). before the game ends, there's usually a shitload of buses waiting for passengers, and they keep running until the stadium is empty, no matter how late it is.
MARTA does have (or did have) Bus service to Amtrak to either Lenox or Arts Center- running between the two MARTA stations.
.........right !!!!! ( as i said before ) running on one of those streets called peachtree avenue arts center station
to the lenox mall and station bypassing the linberg center station .......
Can some one explain the TA's plans...extend the N on structure or extend from the R..via a tunnel to the airport..many thanks.
I think it was to extend the N from Astoria.
N from Astoria is the plan, but the Speaker of the City Council is against it. So the plan is to "study" it until 2002. If Vallone is elected Mayor, it dies. If Vallone is not elected Mayor, it might get built.
But the Port Authority is opposed, because they are afraid it would help New York. The plan is only funded to the edge of the Airport, because the Port Authority won't cooperate. You'd think with that passenger facility charge, the PA could bring it the rest of the way.
[But the Port Authority is opposed, because they are afraid it would help New York. The plan is only funded to the edge of the Airport, because the Port Authority won't cooperate. You'd think with that passenger facility charge, the PA could bring it the rest of the way.]
I didn't know that.
Ah, well, just another obscenity to add to my collection . . .
They could run the train around all the terminals and charge an exit fee which would go to the PA.
It would be nice if they could forget all the inter-agency bickering and worrying about fees and think of all the benefits from rail. Not just for travellers but for employees who mighjt just stop driving to work [I say MIGHT..] Once upon a time they howled about profit-hungry companies and public operation was supposed to be for service.
Thanks to David V and Dave P and others for the railfanning tips for San Francisco.
I have to say that the railfanning in SF surpassed my expectations so much that I have to now rate it ahead of NYC, Boston and fair Toronto as the railfan capital of the world.
Operationally there are some serious problems for MUNI to overcome such as - grafiti, rampant fare evasion (from what I saw) and infrequent off peak service.
But the great veiws, spectacular overhead, beautifully restored PCCs and Witts and the Embarcadero extension more than made up for that.
I took 23 rolls of film on my 8 day trip (mostly of transit) - it was that good.
Rob,
Were you riding the proof-of-payment lines? (I forget which are converted to POP and which aren't). If you were that might explain some of the fare evasion. Although, I noticed most of the drivers don't really look at the farecards (the scratch-off ones, I mean) close enough to see if they're really valid or not.
I'd love to host some of your Embarcadeo extension photos and anything else you might want to contribute. It's unlikely I'll be able to get out there this year myself so I need some help to cover the new things..
-Dave
I was on the N line a lot which is the only POP line outside of the subway at the moment. All the MUNI metro stations have POP signs on platform level telling you that you need to have a pass or a transfer when you are on the platform. I thought that was a little strange since you need to show your pass or pay a fare to get in there in the first place.
The fare evasion I was refering to was on buses and non POP routes where lots of people boarded through the back doors. Let's just say I don't think they all had passes. The F line was bad for this. Some of the buses even have signs by the back door that say "it is unlawful to enter through the rear doors" or something like that.
The last day I was there, an operator on the F going up the Embarcadero refused fares. He said "everyone in, grab a seat, don't pay." I suppose he was late. I also noticed only one operator who went to the trouble of ripping transfers. Most tend to let them serve as an all you can ride three hour pass for $1.
I even saw homeless people on the street asking for transfers "if you won't give me 25 cents at least gimme a transfer."
I hear the POP is going to be extended to all the streetcar lines soon. I hope they intend to enforce the POP somewhat. I laud MUNI's efforts, trying to speed up service, but they have to get some presence out there - I didn't see anyone checking while I was there. In Toronto, the POP on route 501 (one of the two streetcar routes that uses articulated streecars primarily) is being dropped. The fare evasion rate was too high despite high profile warnings.
As for the Embarcadero - I will scan and send a few to the site.
Rob, Glad you had a good trip. As to POP, it is officially in use in two areas--the N Judah on the surface west of Church St. and any trolleys on the south Embarcadero(MMX)line to the ballpark and CalTrain station. Enforcement on the latter is a joke. While I ride sporadically, I have only been challenged once in two plus years. On the outer N however the story is the opposite. Teams of two of SF' finest are assigned on overtime(!) to accost riders. As I carry a pass at all times its a big so what--but two gun toting ticket checkers? The practice of entering buses--particularly artic's on major route--at the rear doors has a history in SF. Years ago"platform workers" were assigned at strategic stops to process riders into the coaches at exit doors speeding up the operation. They collected fares and issued transfers. Those positions were abolished during a stupid belt tightening period and have not been replaced. However, in a recent official MUNI publication, the 'Ask Molly Muni' column encouraged riders with valid fare receipts, passes etc to board.One should remember that the farebox is 30% on average recovery so fare evasion is IMHO economically neglible.
trolleycar.org has some of the new embarcadaro pictures.
Today I went and rode the Hudson-Bergen light rail line for the first time. As I emerged from the Exchange Place PATH station I noticed a lot of police and other emergency vehicles near the Exchange Place light rail station. Upon further examination I discovered that one of th light rail vehicles had been backed into by a car just north of the station. The light rail vehicle had no visible damage and the car appeared to be slightly dented. There were no serious injuries. This accident ocurred around 4:30PM and seriously screwed up the evening rush hour. Two other light rail vehicles were stuck behind the affected vehicle. After about an half hour of confusion, the two light rail vehicles were coupled together and were wrong railed as a shuttle to the Marin Blvd station. There a transfer could be made to cars going to both West Side Avenue and 34th Street. Cars coming from West Side Avenue and 34th Street crossed over just north of Marin Blvd and terminated there. By the time I returned to Exchange Place around 6PM everything had been cleared up and service was back to normal.
thanks for describing how the blockage was dealt with on the hudson light rail... i wonder if they had contingency plans for what they did... did they require special signalling or orders to wrong rail?... i guess a lot of it could be handled by the computer console which oversees the operation... in fact that might be an interesting place to visit...
i was also wondering about how a situation like this would be handled on an older trolley system... suppose they had a broken rail on a section of trolley track going northbound on coney island ave, would they have ever been able to wrong rail around that and set up a temporary service that would be turned around south of the problem?
The problem with wrong railing a trolley is that they only have cabs in one end.
Arti
i really didn't think of that... although i can remember from my youth, that the trolley cars on the ocean avenue line were double-ended... i guess i was wondering how much flexibility a trolley line has to go around blockages...
[i guess i was wondering how much flexibility a trolley line has to go around blockages... ]
Not much unless you can reroute. Wrongrailing would be dangerous as to my knowledge most of the old lines weren't signaled.
Arti
yeah... the wrong railing idea on a city street
would be really dangerous, since cars shared the
lanes with the trolleys...
how did a trolley operator communicate with his
supervisors? if a car broke down, i guess he would
go into a candy store and use a public phone..
speaking of "he", during world war II when
"man"power was in short supply, were there any women
trolley operators?
[speaking of "he", during world war II when
"man"power was in short supply, were there any women
trolley operators? ]
I would guess so. Actually in former USSR as far as I've seen most of the trolley and trackless trolley operators were women.
Arti
According to today's Jersey (City) Journal, the operator of the light rail vehicle was a woman. She was given a summons for not having a driver's license (this sucker may be privately operated, but it's still subject to the Jersey City curse)!
Unless she didn't have her license with her, this means that 21st Century hired her without one; which means they either don't need one, or they didn't check to see if she had one. Since LRVs are NOT motor vehicles, I can't see why one would need a drivers license to run one, especially since each operator is individually trained. Near as I can tell, in NYS, a driver of a Trolley Coach (Trackless) is subject to the same rules that apply to the operators of a regular bus, but a trolley car operator (Vehicle is defined as a 'train' even when it's running in the street) is not required to be licensed by the DMV, but is subject to rules set by the PSC.
-Hank
-Hank
Some previous postings on this theme recalled to mind a bit of memory on Vanderbilt Avenue, Brooklyn, during the 1940's, when I was 9 or 10. We were on a northbound PCC, and apparently blew a fuse. The motorlady didn't know what to do, or there was some other foul-up. However, as the overhead wire had "reporters," a tan BMT radio-car soon showed up. The driver jumped out of the car, replaced something (as I recall it, but my memory could be tricky) near the front stairwell or tinkered with something there, and we continued to Park Row. No big delay. In a different incident, one wet day at Williamsburg Plaza, our Metropolitan (or Grand) car's motorman spent time shoveling sand into the sandbox on his car. Our car left the loop. On the downgrade to a bridge (over a branch of Newtown Creek? near the crossing of Metropolitan and Grand as at present) we came upon our leader (a Grand? a Metropolitan?), which had slid into a lumber truck backing out of a lumber yard on the right. Dad and I surveyed the damaged, guessed that the line would be blocked, and hiked back to the Canarsie subway. Yes, accidents blocked trolley routes in the old days.
Joe, just outta curiosity, what equipment did the Canarsie Line have then?? Multis, bluebirds? Standards?
Answering the question about the Canarsie line in the late 1940's, I recall mostly multis. There was one train built by Clark, with (as my memory says, but with errors possible), PCC trucks, upholstered seats (as opposed to rattan), and a forward-facing railfans' window. I only rode it once, on a day we saw it running the west. We got off at First Avenue and waited for it to come east. I could be wrong, but the multis were used on 14th Street because they were light enough for the el to Lefferts and they allowed passengers to pass within each part of the five-car unit on the snaking curves through Brooklyn. The Lefferts service was affected first by the extension of the A train to Euclid, then by the construction of the ramp near "City Line."
The Clark-built train you saw and rode on was our long-lost and much-beloved "Bluebird". Never was one like her, never will be another.
Regular MS ran on the Canarsie line for some time, both to Canarsie AND to Lefferts.
Wayne
Thanks!!!
But in the case you are talking about, it sounds like the streetcar sustained actual damage that prevented it from continuing. The recent incident on the HBLR apparently caused NO damage to the rail vehicle. And it occurred at Exchange Place, where (if I have understood correctly) there is some trackage beyond that currently in revenue service. Is this track usable, even for a car length? If so, couldn't the car involved in the accident have pulled up onto that trackage so as not to block the in-service track?
I think the track north of Exchange Place is live almost to the next station, which is Harborside-Financial Center.
wayne
> I think the track north of Exchange Place is live almost to the next
> station, which is Harborside-Financial Center.
Yes the track is used into Harborside. There is currently a Y that puts north-bound traffic on the south-bound side of the platform where the operator then changes ends.
-- Dave
A driver's license? Is the light rail vehicle a "motor vehicle"? Surely there must be some confusion on this issue. If a driver's license is required, then 21st Century Rail Corp. wouldn't have hired her if she doesn't have one. Or does "not having" a license just mean "not having it on her" in this case?
Was a driver's license required for trolley operators when trolleys were common?
Depended on the city or state, I suppose. I recall reading of a similar incident in Washington, D.C. back in the '50s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A Licence was not necessary for streetcar motormen/operators in Maryland before 1975, when the General Assembly removed the rail/electric powered exemption from the Motor Vehicle code. In 1963, as total bus conversion was in the immediate future, BTC still had 16 men who did not posess a Maryland Driver License. (Their wife had the license in the family, and they all lived close to one of the 3 carhouses and could walk to work.) BTC had to take them down to the Glen Burnie office of the DMV and get 14 of them driver licenses as well as the chauffeur license that you needed in those days. The other 2 were retiring on 3 November and didn't need it.
The MTA plays CYA by requiring anyone who works in a Transportation related job MUST have a CDL with air brake and passenger endorsement. If you don't have it, they help you to get it. Fail? Sorry, no job.
*how did a trolley operator communicate with his
supervisors? if a car broke down, i guess he would
go into a candy store and use a public phone.. *
A trolley stalled in a blizzard on Haddon Ave in Collingswood, NJ (Camden to Haddonfield line) in the 1920's on a Sunday when no stores were open. The motorman knocked on my grandparents' door during dinner to inquire whether they had a phone. They did, and my grandmother fed the motorman dinner while he waited for help from Public Service.
I have not seen the line yet nor know anything about its operation so forgive me if I'm totally out in left field. It seems to me that where a trolley line is running on city streets, it would be extremely dangerous to have trolley traffic running counter to auto traffic.
[I have not seen the line yet nor know anything about its operation so forgive me if I'm totally out in left field. ]
Sorry, we were actually discussing old trolley lines, but your point is still valid.
Arti
They don't run in the street, exactly. They're set up on the street in a sort of median, and there's really no place where the trains run with traffic.
-Hank
actually i think there is a section south of exchange place where the tracks are not really isolated from traffic... i remember one day the trolley had to wait for a couple of minutes, near some of the new construction, for a double parked truck to pull closer to the curb, so that the light rail car would have enough clearance to get by safely...
This double parking has to end! Stiff fines, PD run as a revenue generating business, I hope you get my drift...
Arti
The spot where the accident occurred was not isolated from other vehicle traffic. Since the tracks are pretty close to the curb at that point, there should definitely be no parking allowed.
Here is my take/problem about this. We are now into a new century. One of the lessons we learned from the last few decades of the previous century is that we know that rail vehicles and internal combustion vehicles do not share the same right of way effectively. They both need to be separated from each other. I freely admit to eliminate every grade crossing and common rights of way throughout this country will cost billions. And to completely seperate the new Bergen Hudson Light Rail line from diesel & gasoline powered vehicles with tires would have raised the cost prohibitively. And here is the first of many, many accidents between the two modes. What shocks me even more is the Newark City Subway extension past Franklin Ave. I checked it out a few months ago. And what did I see? A grade crossing just past the current loop! We need federal guidelines that say that all new heavy and light rail projects must be on their own right of way. If this causes some new projects to be shelved, so be it! In the long run, it is much safer and is better for service reliability & regularity.
I disagree with you at least as far as grade crossings are concerned. I remember my high school driver's ed teacher 29 yrs ago (damn, is it that long ago?) telling us that a railroad crossing should be treated no different than any other intersection, just with gates & flashing lights instead of traffic lights. If you are going to replace them all with overpasses by the same reasoning you should replace all intersections with overpasses. Its actually safer than intersections because of the gates and the train's whistle. There are many more accidents at intersections than at railroad crossings. Although I sincerely feel bad for the 9 youths killed in the van at the Herrick's Rd crossing almost 20 yrs ago I feel the Herricks Rd grade crossing elimination project was a huge waste of millions of dollars. Sunrise Hway in Nassau was a very scenic road before the concrete wall was put up about 30 yrs ago.
The benefit of light rail is that it can share with streets. If it was isolated, might as well build heavy rail or a subway.
I think grade crossing elimination is a good way to spend $$$, in terms of saving live per dollar. Further, it saves the RR $$ because they do not have to maintain signals and a grade crossing (maintenence of the physical crossing is a significant expense, in addition to avoiding accidents that are costly in more ways than one. However...
Getting people out of cars is the biggest thing we can do to save lives. If we make rail prohibitively expensive due to excessive safety requirements, we hamper this goal. So too many safety requirements COST lives. If you say that new passenger rail cannot go over grade crossings, you will essentially end the expansion of Metra in Chicago, for instance - costing many lives in the long run.
There are counterflow bus lanes in some North American cities.
As I recall there was one on the approach to the Lincoln tunnel. There is also counterflow express bus service in Montreal. Traffic cones, overhead signals and big arrows on the front of the buses telling motorists to keep right are the only things that separate the cars from a head on collision with the 11 ton bus. While it may be dangerous it can and is be done with busses.
They have it on the LIE just E/O the Midtown Tunnel. Years ago when I drove a cab I used it.
There used to be one on 2nd Ave. from 57th St. to the bridge.
Not all trolley cars were single-ended. In fact, IIRC, PCC cars were the first single-ended cars. The majority of cars before the advent of the PCC were double-ended. And contrary to popular (and my own) belief, there ARE double-ended PCC cars. San Francisco has a few.
-Hank
Actually, most trolley cars built after 1900 were single-ended. It's just that the older cars that many of us remember were double-ended, because they were the survivors - the double-ended cars were required on certain lines, and the PCC couldn't handle them. But the added cost (and loss of seating space) on the double-ended PCC made their purchase much harder to justify.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends on the company. The United Railways & Electric Company of Baltimore (UR&E) did not purchase a single end car until the Peter Witts of 1930. These and the first one-man conversions (UR&E class OMSE - One Man Single End) were UR&E's first. BTW, all single end cars were equipped with backup controls, since 98% of of the car houses were single-ended. Only 3 had either an internal loop or were run-through.
The first production single-end streetcar built in bulk was the Nearside of 1910-1913. The Peter Witts of Cleveland were single end, as were most of Cleveland's cars. Double-enders were a rarity.
Toronto also had very few double-enders, most came from the Civic Railway when it and the Toronto Street Railway were combined with the formation of the TTC. IIRC Spadina was the last major TTC route using double-end cars. It ended in 1948.
One of the pecular things about Cleveland and Toronto was that both systems used single-end fleets very early (1908-9 for Cleveland, 1905 for Toronto) but neither city had many loops. Cleveland turned many lines with wyes, the Madison Ave. line, the last line in Cleveland, used a wye up to conversion in 1954.
One of the TTC's first acts in 1921/22 was to install loops and get rid of the TSR's wyes.
Seems to me they are going to have to figure out how to get things moving quicker after a fender bender like this. The auto driver seems to have been clearly at fault, and there was essentially no damage to the LRV. So what were they waiting for?
with malice toward many, and poverty for all...
my apologies to lincoln... he said:
with malice toward none; with charity for all: with
firmness in the right, as god gives us to see the
right, let us strive on to finish the work we are
in: to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him
who shall have borne the battle and for his widow
and his orphans; to do all which may achieve and
cherish a just and a lasting peace, among ourselves,
and will all nations.
what does this have to do with anything? yesterday
i made another of my melodramatic departures from
this message board... it was motivated by a personal
attack against the person posting information about
the bergen arches... nobody took offense at that
attack, and i felt guilty for having told this
person to post information here on this message
board... after the attack i felt ashamed to be part
of this scene...
we all come to subtalk as people on the road to
realizing our purpose in life... along the way to
gaining awareness of our purpose is, we may hurt
others and ourselves... here at subtalk, the means
of communication is the written word... what we
write is there to be read by everyone... the written
word can hurt...
perhaps we can find a way to discourage people from
engaging in personal attacks... perhaps it is as
simple as reminding them of how they feel when their
own name has been shown disrespect...
paraphrasing captain queeg,another great hero of
mine
if only there was a way we could help each other
instead of hurting each other
.......you are talking over thier heads heypaul ......
i have few pretensions of influencing other people's
behavior... and lincoln's words both in the 2nd
inaugural address and the gettysburg address perhaps
spoke above people's heads... but that made it
easier for the words to speak to their hearts...
i would hope that we can have our differences here
without having to name call or demonize people who
disagree with us... as much as i can get really
angry with things that are said here, the people
saying them are just people making their way through
life just like you and i are... we are as much
victims of our own reactions to other people's words
and actions as we are victims to what they actually said and did...
Hey Paul, no "Slowly I Turn" references but I'm actually considering taking the wife & kid to Niagara Falls next month. Might even take in the Toronto Subway while I'm there, I hear its not too far.
About 80 or 90 miles from Niagara Falls to toronto if I remember correctly. Check out the Welland Canal along the way. it's quite impressive. I plan to see it again this summer.
About 80 or 90 miles from Niagara Falls to toronto if I remember correctly. Check out the Welland Canal along the way. it's quite impressive. I plan to see it again this summer.
At the posted speed limit of 100km/h, and with average traffic, it's about a 1½ hour drive from Niagara Falls (Ontario) to Toronto. That works out to around 150km or 94 miles.
Visitors to the Toronto subway system should be aware that, while it is reasonably safe to use expensive camera equipment--from a crime standpoint--in most parts of the system, the transit police here don't take kindly to photography. Expect to be harassed.
CH.
Should we cue up the theme from Welcome Back, Kotter once again?:-)
Oooops, forgive me but I'm about to break a promise I made to myself by answering one of your posts.
______________________________________________________________________
If you can understand it, how can you possibly think it's over anyone else's head?
He never said he understood it.
Restraint of tongue and pen (in this case, keyboard) is essential to harmony here. Sure, some things get me ticked off but do I ever get my back up over it? Nah.. I haven't got time to be angry.
I'm going back to my tornado watching; then I'll be back to read & post some more.
wayne
Oh, no, don't tell me you have a tornado log, too!:-)
BTW, I will be in Toronto during the 4th of July weekend; however, there won't be any time for subway or streetcar joyriding. Bummer. The very first streetcar I ever saw in my life was a PCC (actually, lots of PCCs) in Toronto in 1963.
"BTW, I will be in Toronto during the 4th of July weekend"
How awful! Spending Independence Day abroad.
No, spending Independence Day away from the crowds ... not a bad idea, if you ask me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I always thought the term "abroad" meant across the ocean. (Except when it means awoman)
I thought this was a board for transit-related issues.
Over half the posts now seem to be about Hillary, Giuliani, and anything from burgers to hotdogs.
This is not what this site is about. And writing a post that Giuliani was spotted eating a burger on a Redbird DOES NOT qualify as a transit-related post.
Please...can we PLEASE get back to talking about transit? There are other sites to vent your love or hate of a political figure. Thank You.
Amen to that! And while we're at it, enough about food, and movies, and how to do HTML, and baseball, and using this forum to send personal messages to each other when both parties supply e-mail addresses, et cetera, et cetera.
David
..allright I am guilty of this too....... however when I try to talk about rail systems worldwide (not just the northeast ) ..
......and dont mention your support for the good old days the way subway cars were quality built ( r 38 and older )
and when you discuss railfan vidieos & railfan windows and you are not a member of the r 142 transverse-cab-car-club.. etc...
all of these idiots and creedmor mental cases come out of thier killfiles and launch thier hate flamage attacks etc...
so to ""lighten up things "" some of us jump offtrack to cool off a little bit .........
i wish this forum had more photographers and vidieo-photographers on it talking more about how shoot the subway
and light rail ( systems ) .............thats who i am looking for !!!
"....how to do HTML"
That is very much a part of this board, how would people tell people how to post links?
Direct people to a "how to do HTML" site. There must be one somewhere...there's at least one of everything else on the Web. Or, write a short tutorial and ask Dave P. to post it on the site so people can refer to it without incessant postings.
David
When someone posts asking about the subway I guess they should be directed to a site too as opposed to being given a friendly explanation.
Asking about the subway is on-topic. Asking about anything else is tangential at best, off-topic at worst (and as usual).
I will no longer respond on this matter.
David
Asking about the subway OR OTHER RAIL TRANSPORTATION, PARTICULARLY IN THE NEW YORK CITY AREA, is on-topic. Asking about anything else is tangential at best, off-topic at worst (and as usual).
I will no longer respond on this matter.
David
You said it twice. OK, you have a point but it is very hard to let a slam or two instigated by others opposed to your beliefs pass without rebuttal.
Here Here!!!! I read messages almost everyday, although I seldom post since I'm usually 5-10 days behind. Since I don't post that much, I didn't want to get involved, but I must say that in the last few weeks some large percent of the posts seem to be trival political comments, personal attacks, attacks on various equipment, etc. As soon as someone posts their opinion on something, an 'attack thread' starts. If you don't agree thats ok, but don't argue endlessly back and forth.
And really, stop the personal junk, as stated in this thread, send an email instead of endless pointless one word posts. I would like to continue to enjoy the 'real' stuff that this BB is about, but don't have the time to weed through the rubbish (or put 87 people in a kill file). Thanks, and by the way, everyone who posts here DOES seem to have many things to say that are INTERESTING and on topic without being brain waste.
There has been much discussion accusing the PA of being unfair to NYC. Mayor Giuliani certainly seems to think so. The funding of the PATH system seems a central part of this issue. Does anyone have an informed opinion as to what the actual financial breakdown behind the issues may be?
[There has been much discussion accusing the PA of being unfair to NYC. Mayor Giuliani certainly seems to think so. The funding of the PATH system seems a central part of this issue. Does anyone have an informed opinion as to what the actual financial breakdown behind the issues may be?]
I don't have a breakdown, but since there don't seem to be any qualified respondents, AFAIK the problem is that half of PA capital spending goes to the NJ side, but the capital spending typically benefits NJ residents whether it's spent in Manhattan or New York, because they're more likely to use the tunnels, bridges, bus terminal, and PATH; similarly, PA subsidies, particularly the immense PATH subsidy, mostly benefit NJ commuters. The revenues of the World Trade Center go to subsidize PATH, and the NY is derived of the taxes that would be paid by private office buildings.
To add insult to injury, the PA built up Newark airport while letting JFK rot, blocked a reasonable Airtrain, and now, it seems, is blocking an extension of the N to the Laguardia terminals.
Since the City can't take back JFK until 2012, it seems to me they should total up the City and State subsidies to NJ and reinstate the commuter tax in an amount designed to make NJ residents' payments equal to the subsidy they receive. That would require reinstating the commuter tax in NYS as well, which is more than jusified, but if greedy suburban politicians can't stomach it, they should cut services to NYC and increase them to the suburbs to make it a zero sum game. (In fairness to NJ, they're rank amateurs when it comes to stealing money from the City.)
Well, the issue of a commuter tax will not be resolved so easily because the NYS residents will vote in NYS. Resolving the NJ issue is somewhat easier in the sense that NY could (if it has effective political leadership) act in its own interests without the political actors having to face issues of being reelected, since NJ residents obviously do not vote in NY.
I also note that it is not altogether clear to me that NYC is being ripped off by its suburbs. These calculations are never as clear as they might be. I do think that NYC has had a somewhat rougher road of it recently under Pataki than was the case a few years ago. Just more self-destructive NYC/NYS politics.
I think we need BB to discuss just that.
Arti
Hello, I tried that, do you think anybody cared?
NO!!!!!
[Well, the issue of a commuter tax will not be resolved so easily because the NYS residents will vote in NYS. Resolving the NJ issue is somewhat easier in the sense that NY could (if it has effective political leadership) act in its own interests without the political actors having to face issues of being reelected, since NJ residents obviously do not vote in NY.
I also note that it is not altogether clear to me that NYC is being ripped off by its suburbs. These calculations are never as clear as they might be. I do think that NYC has had a somewhat rougher road of it recently under Pataki than was the case a few years ago. Just more self-destructive NYC/NYS politics.]
As you point out, it's very hard to get real figures for any of this stuff, though Larry Littlefield has written an excellent paper on the Vampire State and I'm sure he'd be glad to send it along. But--I would save a lot of money in taxes and receive more services by moving to a NY suburb, and that would be even truer if I moved to NJ. That's not because the City is being profligate--NYC workers are now paid less than their counterparts in other parts of NYS and NJ. It's because the state has devised formulas that favor the suburbs--for example, 70% of MTA capital spending is allocated to the suburbs, but City subway and bus riders make up 90% of the MTA's passengers (and some of them are commuters form the suburbs, making the discrepancy worse). Operating subsidies too are much lower for City residents than suburban residents both on a percentage and absolute basis. And the state mandates a 50-50 transit/road split. In conjunction with a 15% cap on NY transit aid when NY has more than 50% of the country's mass transit passengers, that screws City residents even further. Add to that the fact that while NYS has 7% of the nation's population and contributes 8% of its tax revenue, it receives only 5% of transportation funding.
In a fair system, people would pay the same for a given income wherever they were, and receive the same services.
Which is why subsidies are pure crap.
Why pay Big Brother the money, just so you could beg to get it back later. Nobody should pay anything unless it's redistributed for purposes of egalitarianism (and other crap like that).
In that case, you either pay, and get nothing, or pay nothing and get something. Sure, it looks like somebody's being robbed, but that's just the way it is now, except that people are being taken for a ride thinking they actually get the tax dollars back.
[Which is why subsidies are pure crap.]
I wish more people understood that. Subsidies trick people into believing that they're getting a free lunch, when they're actually paying more because everybody ends up paying for everybody else's use of uneconomical services. It's basic economics, but hard to explain!
(I also note that it is not altogether clear to me that NYC is being ripped off by its suburbs).
The deal is -- New York City gets a health and social services network that costs far more than in other places -- even adjusting for the concentration of poor and troubled people in the city -- and the rest of the state gets everything else. However, the health and social services network is really at least 1/3 a low-effort employment scheme for college-educated liberals in the city, while the high spending on other services elsewhere in the state is a low-effort employment scheme for suburbanties and upstaters with connections to the Republicans.
Ie. -- we are all screwed. NYC is being screwed more today, but is the rest of the state really benefitting? No. Similarly, when the next census shows 8.5 million people in NYC, and redistricting leaves Democrats in control of the state senate, upstate will be screwed more, but most people in NYC won't benefit.
As for the Port Authority, it became a ripoff in the recession, when difficult circumstances forced the MTA to cut back service and raise tolls and fares, while the Port Authority just started draining NYC instead.
[(I also note that it is not altogether clear to me that NYC is being ripped off by its suburbs).
The deal is -- New York City gets a health and social services network that costs far more than in other places -- even adjusting for the concentration of poor and troubled people in the city -- and the rest of the state gets everything else. However, the health and social services network is really at least 1/3 a low-effort employment scheme for college-educated liberals in the city, while the high spending on other services elsewhere in the state is a low-effort employment scheme for suburbanties and upstaters with connections to the Republicans.
Ie. -- we are all screwed. NYC is being screwed more today, but is the rest of the state really benefitting? No. Similarly, when the next census shows 8.5 million people in NYC, and redistricting leaves Democrats in control of the state senate, upstate will be screwed more, but most people in NYC won't benefit.
As for the Port Authority, it became a ripoff in the recession, when difficult circumstances forced the MTA to cut back service and raise tolls and fares, while the Port Authority just started draining NYC instead.]
Well said. The bottom line seems to be that we're pushing pork around, and the entire region gets hurt.
ACME NEWS PHOTOGRAPH FROM 1938 WITH THE ORIGINAL INFORMATION ON THE BACK. IT READS AS FOLLOWS: "12 HURT IN CRASH OF ELEVATED TRAINS NEW YORK CITY-STATION AT 110TH STREET, HIGHEST SPOT IN THE CITY'S ELEVATED RAILWAY SYSTEM, WAS THE SCENE OF A CRASH AUGUST 1 WHEN A DEADHEAD TRAIN HEADING FOR THE YARDS CRASHED INTO THE REAR OF A LOCAL DISCHARGING PASSENGERS. FIRE BROKE OUT IN ONE CAR OF THE LOCAL AND ANOTHER CAR WAS DERAILED AND DAMAGED AS 12 PERSONS SUFFERED HURTS. WARNING SHOUTED BY THE LOCAL'S CONDUCTOR PERMITTED MANY PASSENGERS TO LEAP TO SAFETY ON THE PLATFORM. PHOTO SHOWS: HARRY WATSON INJURED, HELPED DOWN STAIRS TO WAITING AMBULANCE. CREDIT LINE (ACME) NY 8/1/38
I guess, with a little research, someone could turn up some pix of the wreck scene.
What is St. Mary's Park Tunnel in the Bronx?
Arti
That would be the tunnel on the Port Morris line, a freight spur off the Metro-North Harlem Line in the Bronx. It runs southeast from just north of the Melrose station to the Oak Point yard. For the most part it has been superceded by the new Oak Point Connector track that runs along the Bronx shoreline, but it still sees some use. I saw a train parked on it a couple of weeks ago, while passing over on the 2/5 IRT line (between Jackson Ave. and 3 Ave.-149 St.).
Thanks. RPA has some Ideas about using it for Triborough RX link (Bay Ridge, etc.)
Arti
I just uploaded the pics from the SIR walk to http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/SIR/
-Hank
Nice shots, Hank ... for the benefit of those of us who don't know all that much about the SIR, do you think you could write a description that will sequence them? I'll help with the html if necessary.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice Pix Hank.
I am sure that few if any people new that line existed.
I'm working on the video I took, it's bits and pieces, and I need to edit out where we found something 'dirty'. My first attempt at a .avi came out to 26MB. I'm playing with streaming compression, so I'll see what comes out best. I'll let you all know.
-Hank
the 1.26MB Real Media file is kinda icky, but if you want to see it, it's in the same place as the pictures.
-Hank
Hey, put up the 26 meg vid. I can DL it no prob.
Me too!!
Arti
Hank, why don't you put the big file up, if you've got the disk space? I would like to have seen the tour, but the resolution wasn't real good in the small version - just enoujgh to tantalize me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unfortunately, the problem is for me UPLOADING. In any case, I just set iut up to upload 3 versions; a 24MB .avi, a 49MB .mpg, and a <2MB .asf (MS Streaming Video) All are of decent quality, and are under the 'video' folder in the previously posted link.
-Hank
I wasn't able to open the .mpg file after downloading it ... got a -40 error. But the .avi file played reasonably well - still kind of grainy but much better than the original small file. Since I'm on a Mac I didn't try the other one. Thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What was the text of the error? I need to know if I should upload it again, or what. The file itself plays fine on my computer, but ofcourse, I've got the original and don't have to download it.
-Hank
I'm uploading it again. So far, it's taken 4+hours.
-Hank
Hank, it simply says it "Could not open the file "sir2.mpg" because of an unknown error. The number of the error is: -40"
Sorry you went through the trouble of uploading it twice, since your upload is probably not the problem. I would guess it's the curse of Microsoft vs. Mac.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, I couldn't download it myself, and it didn't read right on the server; so I deleted it, and uploaded it again. It took 290 minutes according to FTP. Try it again.
-Hank
I've downloaded it again ... still the same result. Not sure what the problem is. Oh well ... the .avi gave me some idea of what it was like :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It won't download for me either, which is very odd. The MPEG starts to download, but stops almost immediately. I'm just going to delete it.
The .avi is just fine...
-Hank
>>>>>I'm working on the video I took, it's bits and pieces, and I need to edit out where we found something
'dirty'.<<<
What, something happened that the kiddies shouldn't see?
www.forgotten-ny.com
We found a box from a video. I zoomed in on it. I didn't edit it out. The video may also have some 'personal' details, since I intended it for Jodi initially, but with my fancy new vid-card...
I'm going to work on my HBLR video as well.
-Hank
I'll add it to the field trips part of the site. Hank, can you send me along a little writeup?
-Dave
I can try.
-Hank
Most excelent job of scanning ... nice group shots too.
Thanks for posting :-)
Mr t
Scanning? Scanning what? Those are pure digital. The video is analog, though.
-Hank
....and now so does South Jersey (or soon will).
Ground was broken this week for the South Jersey Light Rail line, which will run from Trenton to the Camden Aquarium and Broadway PATCO station.
Sibernaut's Lair
Another cheap way to Philly?
It's too early to know fares, frequency, etc but theoretically, yes it would be but the train would drop you off in Camden (not a good place for tourists to find themselves) so you'd either have to take a walk across the Ben Franklin Bridge(longer than both the Manhattan and Brooklyn Bridges at 1,750 feet) or take PATCO for $.85(but you'd have a three seat ride).
The NJT Atlantic City line is expected to add a station to accommodate the light rail line at Delair. This would be another alternate route to 30th St. Fare would probably be around $2.50 from Delair to 30th St.
Bob
Unless the plans have suddenly changed, the South Jersey light rail line is supposed to use DLRV's - That's Diesel Light Rail Vehicles.
Yecch!!!!
Yep...a bus on a fixed guidway....
-Hank
They actually MAKE diesel LRV's?
Siemens, I believe, does. They did a demo 3-4 years ago.
-Hank
I saw the U.S Marshalls movie today, and I noticed in a chase scene, Sheridan (played by Wesley snipes) ran over some Tracks in Manhattan by the Cemetary. However, then Tommy lee Jones ran over the Tracks after a Large Train went over it. I dunno if any of you saw that movie, but do those coaches belong to MNRR? Also when Sheridan makes the jump on to the Train from the Roof, is that 125th street Harlem MNRR Station? just a guess, but I think that Train was headed for poughkeepsie, because it had a Genesis P42 series locomotive on it.
I saw U.S. Marshalls. Yes those are MNRR cars. They probably were headed to Poughkeepsie, but they do assign Genesis engines and center-door cars on through trains to Danbury as well as the one evening through train to Dover Plains.
I thought they assigned FL-9's on Danbury trains because it was a CDot service.
There aren't enough remaining in operation for 100% of peak service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You didn't pay as close attention as you might have. The cemetary is in Queens, somewhere right over the 59th st. bridge, because the other officers get there quickly. So Snipes leaps over the cemetary walls, crosses the tracks, which interesting enough seem to be near a grade crossing, because you can hear the sound. And then runs into a building he later leaps off of onto a Metro-North train at 125th. Wesley Snipes and the rest must be in very good shape.
The cemetary in the movie was SUPPOSED to be in Queens. In reality, it was filmed in the Chicago area -- at the (I think...) Bavarian American Cemetary. That train that passed while in the cemetary was a Chicago Metra (RTA) gallery train. Note the orange and brown stripes on the different levels.
If you go to the Internet Movie Database, it will tell you the exact name of that cemetary.
http:\\www.imdb.com\
The scenes on Metro-North, well, they were filmed where they look like they were filmed!!!
Make that the "Bohemian National Cemetary" in Chiago, IL.
Just checked it myself.....
I know. When I was on the 125th St. Station tour sponsered by the Transit Museum, I met the technical advisor.
I was at the 125 st sation when they were filming that sceen. You would have never known that it was a stunt dubble. And that nobody really jumped off a building onto a MNRR car. That Hollywood for you
Any Metro-North fans seen "Falling In Love" (Robert de Niro, Meryl Streep). Lots of good MN scenes, M-l's anyway; I'd almost call MNRR a co-star.
I saw it ten years ago, barely remember it.
Well, as Bill from Mespeth posted there was a G.O. on the Queens Boulevard Line. So, I took a ride to see the faces of the pissed commuters. The E Line didn't run today. The F was split in 2 parts, Coney Island-42 Street/6 Av Line, and 34 Street/7 Av Line. The F trains from Coney Island went into the NB Local track at 42 Street. To reverse, it crossed all the lines back to SB Local. This caused major delays for the D Line. The D Trains were all bunched up in the area. The B Train ran only to 36 Street because of this. F Trains from Queens ran on the R Line from Queens Plaza to 34 Street. F Trains returning north ran express from 34 Street to 57 Street. It switched over before 57 Street because of the B Shuttle. The R Line has a mix of R32s and R46s. They ran from Jamaica Center to 95 Street. BTW, the destination signs on the R46s said "R" "Jamaica Center" "Broadway Local" when going north. There was one car of R32s that had the E Line signed up. That obviously confused some but when you look at the other signs they say R. I was at Grand Street for over an hour telling the people about the B Train situation. Most didn't read the sign or didn't know how to read it. Yes, I know chinese. I even got a thanks from a C/R. I got on and went to 95 Street on the R Train. Now I have rode the entire B Division! Now the A Division.
Thoughts are welcome
-Edward
[The F trains from Coney Island went into the NB Local track at 42 Street. To reverse, it crossed all the lines back to SB Local. This caused major delays for the D Line. ]
Why couldn't they have gone to 57th & 6 and reverse there or even to Queensbridge, no need for that inconvenient shuttle then.
Arti
They can't reverse at 21-St Queensbridge because of track work. Trains are single tracking in the 63 Street Tunnels. They can't reverse at 57 Street neither because they were doing work on the SB switches north of 47-50 Streets on the F Line Tracks. They were also doing work along the edge of the 42 Street/6 Avenue SB Local platform. 57 Street/6 Avenue is closed during this time.
In this case I don't get why all that stuff has to happen at the same time.
Arti
So you can have one big disruption instead of several little ones.
BTW, this is the first time they replaced the E with the R, instead of calling it the E.
[So you can have one big disruption instead of several little ones. ]
Yes, IMHO people do use the Subway on weekends too.
Arti
It allways confuses people when they run an E on the R line. Many passengers have no clue where it is going.
Well, they won't be able to tell bupkus if they try and decipher the front-end destination sign if it's an R32. If they are set correctly (and in most cases they are) the customers should be able to see where they're going by reading the side window signs.
The platform announcements should be made with care during these G.O.'s. Saturday I'm going down to the Queens Blvd line to take a peek at what's going on. Should be interesting.
wayne
I was in it last Saturday and SUnday . Saturday( Friday olvernight) was not too bad. But Sunday (Saturday overnight) was atrocious. There was a big gap in shuttle bus service and crowds at Court Sqquare--unhappy at that. Queens Plaza was also crowded with sheep waiting for the express (yes- I know there was no express!) and would not move even when I told them all trains are local!
At 75th Ave waiting for a train- waas not too bad. The train was the North F to 34/Broadway- requiring a train change at 34th. I arrived at 34- N/R plat amid huge crowds and tried to explain to the sheep of the need to go to the IND plat for Brooklyn F. I arrived at the IND platforms amid worse than rush hour crowds. It took almost an hour to get from 75th ave to Jay Street Brooklyn vs 35 minutes normal.
The only problem Saturday at 630am was sardine conditions aboard the bus due to only two buses.
People- this will be the same way this weekend, Memorial Day long weekend and the weekend after that! If you can take the 7 you will save time!
And... the destination signs on the train were no help! I dont know if it was deliberate or accidental but when I boarded it said E train to 95th Street and changed seemingly at will to every letter (no J,L,M,Z) and some interesting routes such as Via Broadway, Via Crosstown, COncourse Express, Broadway Express, Last stop (not last stop!), Listen for announcements (yes, they were made!), Not in Service, etc! and yes, that did confuse the people even more! I took quite a bit of gripes and cusses and tried to explain- The Joy of Transit! (Yes- I do enjoy working for Transit)
Yeah, it's better to take the 7. If you get off at 5th Avenue, the F Trains are waiting for you.
Well now I have my answer. I took my son Arthur to the Central Pk Zoo today. I took the LIRR from Mineola to Woodside, the "7" to Queensborough Plaza, and the "N" to 5th Av. When I got off the "N" at 5th Av and was walking to the stairs, the next train pulled in-an "F"!!! I couldn't figure out what it was doing on the Bway BMT. Thanks for the answer Edward!!
I've said in previous posts that too much goes on at one time and this G.O proves it. I knew that switching F trains completely "across the plant" from B2 to B1 would be a disaster and it is. That's lots of switches and home signals that have to be working for each move. Wonder how many levers the Tower Operator has to manipulate for that move! And naturally, that kind of move will halt D trains in both directions! Hope are no trains have BIE (emergency brake application) during this G.O. in this area. That will stop everything on Sixth Ave. I freely admit that I am being ultra selfish about this, but I picked a simple 3 tripper on the E for Memorial Day. Now the TA has changed my job to have me do 2 trips to 95th St. All local! I would have NEVER picked that! 50 stops each way? If I knew this was going to happen when we picked, I would have picked off for the holiday or picked the F from 179 to 34 St.!
If I understand this correctly, it means that F trains moving "across the plant" at 42nd St. would cross three sets of scissor switches, including the second set between the express tracks. That would be the one closer to 42nd St., which I had remarked was never used anymore. Now I know why it was left in...
Did you see the 5 trains signed as Brown Diamond R's? There were probably more, but I counted 2 sets with the signs on both ends, 1 set with the sign on the ends and the middle, 1 set with the sign on the Jamaica end only, and 1 set with the Manhattan end only.
There were a few F's last evening that pulled in on the 57st Express track queensbound. Conductor had to say 'This is not the shuttle to Queensbridge'.
Yesterday afternoon one R went express from Roosevelt to 71st - only train to use the express track. (Late?)
R conductors were having trouble with the whole Van Wyck Blvd Jamaica Van Wyck thing and kept mixing them up.
Sidenote: The R-46s mostly said:
R Jamaica Center
R Broadway Local
Though one said:
R Jamaica Center
R Via 6 Ave
All the F's said
to 34st/BWAY
or
F to 179st/Queens
F 6 Ave Local
F Queens Local
One F said
to 179st/Queens
Another said
Q to 179st/Queens
Q 6 ave line
I was one of the conductors on the "R" line this past Friday, Saturday, and Sunday . It was a total mess for not only the customers, but much worse for the train operators and conductors. There was extensive delays, confused and lost customers, and 10 to 12 hour shifts because of these delays. Many t/o and c/r's had no meal break time because of late trains. Trains were backed up trying to get to either Jamacia Center or 95th Street. There were "R" trains running at 5 minute intervals. "N" trains were cut, and there were only 2 "F" trains running between 34th Street and 179 Street. The "R" trains were overcrowded, Customers confused and lost holding doors at most stops, especially 71st and Continental, Roosevelt, Queens Plaza, 34th Street and 42nd Street. Some trains were held up by more than 10 minutes at a single stop. Part of thr problem was inadequate signage in stations and on trains, the other part is customers not listening to announcements. At some stops, I made the announcement 5 times, only to have the same question asked to me by a customer with their foot in the door preventing me from closing. The TA had better do something to make service better for the next 3 weekends. Most of the "E" and "R" crew is burnt out. Start work at 3 or 4 in the afternoon and not get off until 2 -3 in the morning is too much. Also a trip and a half- then having to deadhead back to the other end to sign out adds up to 2 hours to the job, especially when you have to take the "R" shuttle from 95th street to 36th street- then the "N" train from 36th street to WhiteHall Street. At Whitehall you then get another "R" train to Parsons/Archer- Jam. Center. If you do not make the connections, you can wait for up to 20 minutes for another train. This is what happened to me on Friday- Early Saturday morning.
Suggestions- No layups on express tracks during GO. Use express tracks for "F" trains in Queens from 179 to Queens Plaza. Use Express tracks in Manhattan from 57th Street to Canal Street for "N" express and also "N" express in Brooklyn from 59th street to Pacific Street. This will eliminate some congestion for the "R" and also relieve the "R" of some passengers who would use the express service.
Hopefully the TA will do something- if not we will have our hands and heads full again next weekend.
Well done report. I appreciate an outlined complaint with a suggested fix or work around. Lets hope the powers that be at on it.
avid
I was looking through the Employment Section of the MTA's website and I came across this...
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/hr/may15/00-198.htm
In the requirements it says "new car design for approximately 150 new "A" Division railcars" The TA is already thinking about new cars when the R142/R142As are still being tested. Well then again the TA might pull a 1960s again, a handfull of new cars all at the same time.
As I sit here sending out this thread, I am respledent in my bright navy blue Sea Beach shirt with the yellow background and its "N" insignia. #1 Brighton Beach Bob is in New York on a combination trip and vacation and he air-mailed me this shirt---which I may sleep in. As you can see some friendships have developed on this site. Of course, we will still be arguing about the Brighton vs Sea Beach until the cows come home, but now as I tool around town the people can
look at my shirt and say======"Whaaaaaat the hell is that"? But there are a number of New York natives in my area so it won't be a complete mystery. When I come to New York on the Sports Tour in August, I'm going to make sure that I wear my Sea Beach shirt when I ride in the front seat on the Cyclone and then eat at Nathan's. Just thoought I'd share my joy with you.
As I sit here sending out this thread, I am resplendent in my bright navy blue Sea Beach shirt with the yellow background and its "N" insignia. #1 Brighton Beach Bob is in New York on a combination trip and vacation and he air-mailed me this shirt---which I may sleep in. As you can see some friendships have developed on this site. Of course, we will still be arguing about the Brighton vs Sea Beach until the cows come home, but now as I tool around town the people can
look at my shirt and say======"Whaaaaaat the hell is that"? But there are a number of New York natives in my area so it won't be a complete mystery. When I come to New York on the Sports Tour in August, I'm going to make sure that I wear my Sea Beach shirt when I ride in the front seat on the Cyclone and then eat at Nathan's. Just thoought I'd share my joy with you. I'm 59 plus and still a kid at heart.
"Sea Beach Man" sounds like something archeologists a few thousand years from now will dig up on the site of what is now called southeast Brooklyn :)
That can only happen if my wife smuggles me into New York when I cash in my chips and has some of my colleagues on this site bury me beneath the express tracks. Sounds like a plan
I'm going to have my head frozen when I die
Either that or I'll have grand tomb built for myself in the shape of a large lead pig. The figure will be cast around a heat proof box where my mummified (egyptian-style, jewels and all) body will be located. This will prevent cracks from existing that will allow grave robbers to do their tampering. I still haven't decided which large plot of high-density slums I should condemn to build the Lead Swine Memorial Square.
That also sounds like a plan. How about in Central oe Prospect Park?
As you know I'd prefer my place to be under thr tracks or at CI if I have to be buried in New York. However, I've already told my wife where I want to be buried and it's Cypress Cemetary in Cypress, Calif. It happens to be on Lincoln Avenue and Abe Lincoln is my all time hero.
Those parks are not slums, and Swine Square wouldn't fit in with those parks at all. I'm thinking of going to Canarsie (OK, not really a slum either) and building the square at Varkens Hook Road, which means Hog's Corner in Dutch. That's where the Boarsheviks (which I may soon lead again) wanted to build their headquarters when I was the Chairpig (even back when I was the Deputy Chairpig, when such a position still existed).
Now as for your liking of Lincoln, it would be great for you to know that there is an exit from Prospect Park (D,Q) Station onto...
Lincoln Road!
Uh Oh, on the Brighton? If #1Brighton Beach Bob finds out, he'll never let me live it down. Why couldn't there be a Lincoln Road on the Sea Beach. Please don't tell Bob when he gets back.
That also sounds like a plan. How about in Central oe Prospect Park?
As you know I'd prefer my place to be under thr tracks or at CI if I have to be buried in New York. However, I've already told my wife where I want to be buried and it's Cypress Cemetary in Cypress, Calif. It happens to be on Lincoln Avenue and Abe Lincoln is my all time hero. Hopefully, it won't happen for a long time.
Haven't you heard? As part of the compromise to get our battle flag off the South Carolina capitol building, all streets named Lincoln are going to be renamed Robert E. Lee Boulevard :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank God you're kidding or you would have a contract taken out on you by the multitude of Lincoln lovers in this country. Lincoln means even more to me than the Sea Beach or the Mets. Cool the rhetoric. BTW, and this ought to surprise you, my wife is a direct descendent of Robert E. Lee. Seems the Lees and Harveys married up in the 1840's, and my better half is the 4th great granddaughter of the general. She wouldn't even tell me that, I had to find out from her father before were married 30 years ago this August 1. My Linda knew what a Yankee fanatic I was (civil war not baseball). She found out when I took her to see Gone With The Wind and cheered like crazy when Sherman burned down Atlanta. She must have wondered just what sort of character she had gotten involved in. Have a great day.
Well, guess your wife and I are related then ... I've got Lee blood in my veins, albeit coming from several generations earlier. I'd have to go study the charts to find out exactly where.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a well-worn T shirt with an old "Independent Subway" logo on it, and have had people ask just what that is. Not to mention my license plates. I've had them for nine years now, and so far, only one gentleman has made the connection to New York and the A train. Then there's my subway map necktie. It shows most of Manhattan, and the 8th Ave. routes cut a vertical swath all the way down. Needless to say, I wear it with my token tie clip.
Steve: You're a gentleman and a scholar. We will have to meet one day and compare notes. Maybe at Nathan's after we ride the Cyclone.
Why, thank you, Fred. Oh, and did I mention my token cufflinks? I wear them when I'm playing in a concert. Unfortunately, I don't have a shirt with a large A on it (or a picture of an R-10, for that matter). Then again, people might associate that with Alvin, as in The Chipmunks.
Not me---but you've given me an idea. I'm going to see if I can get a Sea Beach watch made----a special order, or maybe a ring. They don't make those things already, do they?
I know I haven't seen one of those anywhere. All you'd have to do is take a picture of, say, a Triplex with "4-Coney Island" signs and use it as the watch face.
Tonight a new member joins our family. His name is Mike Miller and he is the owner of the Fair Oaks Pharmacy and Soda Fountain in South Pasadena, California. It's a fantastic place, and our New York link to the city we once called home. He is originally from Brooklyn and lived ten blocks from Ebbets Field as a kid. But he has a bad malady. Like my pal Brighton Beach Bob, he is and always was a Yankee fan. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEGGGGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDS.
Anyway, when I told him about our website, he said as soon as he went home he'd log in.
Hey! What does this have to do with transit? Your personal attacs have more relevance.
Arti
Your netcopping has no relevance either.
Yep, not really.
Arti
Egad, another Californian!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on Sarge, you know that deep within that soul of yours there's a California spirit that'ss dying to come out. Besides, how many New Yorkers do you know who go around flouting their bright navy blue "N" Sea Beach shirt like one guy I know.
Uh, Fred, what if his favorite subway line happens to be the Brighton?:-)
Steve: So what if his favorite is the Brighton. I'm outnumbered up the giggy already so what's one more Brightoneeeny gonna hurt?
i was riding around astoria on my bike this afternoon trying to find a greek coffee shop... i ended up underneath the hell gate bridge and was dismayed to see that they had painted it... i kind of liked it better in its unpainted rugged shape... i also wonder whether the cement support structures have required much maintenance over the years...
Hey, what's going on Heypaul is asking serious questions, Salaam is getting coherent... But I'm still plugging in Eastern Europe any time I can! Please stop me! (My feeble attempt to be humorous)
Arti
HellGate was given its new red color three years ago. A massive paint job, took about six months.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No surprise there; Hell Gate Bridge is one massive bridge. I just wish the Manhattan Bridge was as strong.
You biked all the way from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria?
What's so strange about that. I biked all the way from Long Island to Montreal, Virginia, Maine, N Carolina, etc.,etc.,etc.
Psst...of course my bike was a Harley!!!
I have a question, to you it might sound like a silly question, but I don't know this:
What the hell is a moped?
Isn't it a motorized bicycle.
Arti
Yes. You can engage or disengage a low-powered motor on it. For people in need of exercise for medical/health reasons, it can come in handy, but it tends to have weight/horespower disadvantages for anyone trying to either pedal fast or go fast with the motor in operation.
Back before the laws were changed, a moped was the standard form of transportation for someone with too many DWIs. Now, since even riding a bicycle or a lawn tractor while tipsy can get you arrested, the moped has falled out of favor. Since the penalty is the same for driving a car or a bicycle when you've had a few too many the drunks get in their SUVs and kill innocent people.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That is utterly insane that you can get arrested for BWI (Biking While Intoxicated). What on earth are you going to do? Put a dent in the side of a car? If you are BWI the most harm you are going to cause is to your self. If you run a red light in your bike even a Geo will leave you as a smear on the pavement. And what if you get "pulled over" for BWI. What are they going to do? Suspend my non-existant bicycle liscance? This sounds like another method for the Police Dept to increase it operating budget. What's next, Walking while Intoxicated?
Actually, that one's already covered under "public intoxication". The logic is that, if you are on a public road with a vehicle of any kind, you are subject to the traffic laws. Motor vehicle licensing laws are a special kind of traffic law, of course, but a bicycle on a public road must observe the rules of the road, including stopping for traffic lights and properly signalling turns and stops (using hand signals, of course). Being sober is just another one of those laws.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ever see the bike messengers in midtown. They should all be charged with attempted manslaughter. As a group they are a bunch of irresponsible SOBs.
My first powered two wheeler was a Sears (Puch) moped. I was actually able to get the thing up to 45 MPH. I had that until I purchased my Honda CA160 in 1966. By then, you needed a motorcycle license in NY State.
The new menace seems to be the motorized skateboards. Won't be long until they are zipping down the platform at W4th St.
The new menace seems to be the motorized skateboards. Won't be long until they are zipping down the platform at W4th St.
I've only seen one of those so far ... with any luck I'll never see another :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The next step is "attempted biking while intoxicated.
Conspiring to operate a bike while intoxicated.
Operating a bike while intoxicated with grave indifference.
Premeditated operation of a bike while intoxicated.
avid
[Back before the laws were changed, a moped was the standard form of transportation for someone with too many DWIs. Now, since even riding a bicycle or a lawn tractor while tipsy can get you arrested, the moped has falled out of favor.]
Is a license needed for operating a moped? If not, they might be useful for people who've had their licenses suspended (for DWI or anything else) yet still need some form of transportation that's faster than a bicycle. (Of couse, the vast majority of people with suspended licenses continue to drive, but once in a great while you might come across someone who'll honor the suspension).
Is a license needed for operating a moped?
Not in most jurisdictions. But the penalty for operating one while impaired is the same as if you were operating a car, so most drunks just keep on driving. Back when the penalty was far less (public intoxication, which in most jurisdictions is a disorderly persons offense) there was some incentive to ride a moped - all you got was a slap on the wrist if you were drinking and riding, not a huge fine and/or jail time. Now you're going to jail regardless, so you might as well drive your car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[Is a license needed for operating a moped?]
[Not in most jurisdictions. But the penalty for operating one while impaired is the same as if you were operating a car, so most drunks just keep on driving. Back when the penalty was far less (public
intoxication, which in most jurisdictions is a disorderly persons offense) there was some incentive to ride a moped - all you got was a slap on the wrist if you were drinking and riding, not a huge fine
and/or jail time. Now you're going to jail regardless, so you might as well drive your car.]
But mopeds still might be useful as a means of transportation for people whose licenses have been suspended. They can use the mopeds to get around while *not* intoxicated, without running the risk of an operating under suspension conviction (which is generally a fairly serious offense, particularly if the suspension was for DWI).
But mopeds still might be useful as a means of transportation for people whose licenses have been suspended. They can use the mopeds to get around while *not* intoxicated, without running the risk of an operating under suspension conviction (which is generally a fairly serious offense, particularly if the suspension was for DWI).
That's true, but I'd venture a guess that most people who have had their licenses suspended or revoked for DWI are either (a) too poor to afford one [more on that in a moment], (b) too stupid to consider it (after all, they didn't consider the consequences of drinking and driving, probably because what little brain they have is picked from the alcohol anyway), or (c) too arrogant (riding one would be beneath their station, and besides, they aren't going to get caught again).
Ever spend a day in traffic court? Over the past twenty years I've been involved in a several motor vehicle cases (as either a witness or victim in traffic accidents, plus once being framed by a cop with a personal vendetta [the judge gave a directed verdict of innocent, which in North Carolina means that the record of the charge is automatically expunged as well]) and have had the opportunity to observe numerous DWI cases. In over half of the cases, the drunk was represented by the public defender and usually had several additional charges pending as well. One case, in which I happened to be involved as a witness, the drunk was convicted of his seventh DWI, his fifth or so NOL, and at least his second charge of no insurance. Given that NOL and no insurance charges are usually dropped in DWI cases since the DWI charge is more serious, he probably had been charged with those offenses before as well. They dropped the stop sign and open container charges as part of the plea. This was back in 1984, under the old laws, so he got six months supervised probation for all that (he already had a permanent revocation of his license from a prior conviction).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[But mopeds still might be useful as a means of transportation for people whose licenses have been suspended. They can use the mopeds to get around while *not* intoxicated, without running the risk of an operating under suspension conviction (which is generally a fairly serious offense, particularly if the suspension was for DWI).]
[That's true, but I'd venture a guess that most people who have had their licenses suspended or revoked for DWI are either (a) too poor to afford one [more on that in a moment], (b) too stupid to consider it (after all, they didn't consider the consequences of drinking and driving, probably because what little brain they have is picked from the alcohol anyway), or (c) too arrogant (riding one would be beneath their station, and besides, they aren't going to get caught again).]
I'd have to agree with you. During the early 1990's, I spent a couple of years working as a court clerk in Connecticut, mostly for criminal matters. Connecticut has a very tough law when it comes to operating under suspension - if the suspension had been for DWI, there's a mandatory penalty of 30 consecutive days behind bars, no community service option or serving the sentence on weekends or any of that nonsense. Yet there was a steady parade of morons being hauled off to Hartford Correctional Center for running afoul of that law. A typical excuse in court would run something along the lines of "Ah've been drinkin' a lot since ah ain't been workin', an' ah reckon ah doan tink much when ah'm drinkin'."
It wasn't too common to see operating under suspension cases that involved suspensions for non-DWI matters. I would imagine that people who get suspension notices for unpaid tickets usually take care of the matter pretty quickly.
It seems to me that the best use of a moped is for someone who has had his car confiscated for DWI or NOL.
I just got home and saw your question plus the answers. I guess it was answered correctly by the others. Basically its a bicycle with a small engine.
He probably took the subway at least part of the way.:-)
i started out my bike ride, by greyhound's bus parking lot, at 12th ave and 29th street... from there i passed the site of the railway express west side terminal on 10th ave. & 33rd street, where i worked for a couple of summers in my youth...the long island railroad's lay up yards occupy the site now.
i rode over the 59th street bridge and passed over the sunnyside train yards along 39th street... i was happy to see that the building that led down to the railway express pxt terminal was still there... it is still marked american railway express over the entrance... after college i worked for railway express for about 10 years... i worked in the garage department, shifting trucks and tractors around, fueling trucks, and generally goofing off... when i worked midnights to eight, there was always a scramble around 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning to find a truck that had a long front seat so that you could sleep comfortably for a couple of hours..
Two questions:
1. What exactly is "pxt"?
2. Doesn't your computer support capital letters?
Just a guess but I think pxt= Package Express Terminal
old tom... we almost posted at the same time... for a minute, i thought you might be an old expressman... i don't think i have run into any former railway express or REA workers in many many years...
pxt was in the sunnyside yards, reachable from 39th street...
I never worked for REA but I certainly remember the trucks all over Manhattan. Especially the chain driven hard tired ones. I saw those trucks in the 40's. They were probably pressed into service because of the lack of production of new trucks during '41-'45.
old tom... i just looked through a book i have on railway express, and the only solid tire truck i see was an electric truck made by walker electrics in 1927 that did survive into the 1950's... i can't see a chain drive... railway express was quite a company... it was the opposite of united parcel...
I don't think the truck I am thinking about was from 1927. I had an open cab and was similar to trucks I've seen in pictures of WW I.
REA was really the FedEx of the pre jet era rather than like UPS
back to world war I??? in the book, they show a 1917-1919 american railway express truck with a definite chain drive... then there is a 1919 two ton white with solid tires, but it is hard to see if they have chain drive...
when you said that railway express was like the fed express of its day, i laughed to myself and thought that you must be kidding... just goes to show how stupid i am... they did have a really good air express division, which was pioneered by american railway express in 1919... by 1937 railway express agency handled all air express for all the airlines... they were indeed the fed express of those days...
my memories of working around the surface divisions clouded my appreciation of what they were in air express
(in the book, they show a 1917-1919 american railway express truck with a definite chain drive)
These are probably the trucks I remeber seeing. After all in the mid 40's they had to reach back into inventory to get anything that would roll because of the shortage of new vehicles.
When I referred to REA as the FedEx of its time it was not so much because of its air division, but because at the time the DC-3 was the main air carrier, and most normal small freight went by truck or train with time sensitive items going REA. Virtually nothing but documents went by air. The advent of the jet age brought the big cargo planes, and now time sensitive items go by air. This is what put REA out of business.
What does REA stand for?
It says it in the subject.
[ It says it in the subject. ]
Not really. It says Railway Express, but it does not have anything beginning with A (except for "and," which I doubt is part of the name). So there!
Sorry then!
Anyway, Anon_e_mouse answered the question.
also lyle, in the last couple of years of railway express, they changed the name of the company to
REA EXPRESS, in hopes of modernizing the image of the company...
Were they nailed by the Department of Redundancy Department nailed them?
Railway Express Agency.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1. pxt stood for pennsylvania express terminal or there abouts and was one of railway express's largest distribution terminals in the new york city area...
2. as far as my use of all small case letters... since the use of all capitals is likened to shouting, i consider my use of small case letters to be akin to speaking quietly, which reflects my kindler gentler personna, which is occasionally belied by my outbursts of anger...
According to the May 11 Queens Chronicle, alot of Queens improvements are apart of the newly approved 2000-2004 Capital Plan, and this includes $4.5M for a connection from Court Square to Courthose Rd (under design), $2M for preliminary work for a passageway connectiong Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza and a new LIRR Snnyside Yards station, and $47M for rehabilitation of Myrtle Wyckoff, including handicap acessibility, and $2.5M to improve the streets for the buses nearby
I think $47Million sounds a bit high for a rehabilitation at Myrtle-Wyckoff - the two stations don't need THAT much work. Unless, of course, the bulk of the money is for the handicap access (i.e. an elevator to BOTH stations)
wayne
1M, 10M, 100M, 1B, it's not THAT MUCHS MONEY!
Arti
But that station is so forboding! When I was there the mezzanine was so dark I thought the power was out. That station is the type that gives people the ideas they have about the subway.
Last time I was there I found ambient incandescent light in the mezzanine. A number of bulbs were missing or out. Solution: Brighter, but still ambient light by replacing the incandescent bulbs with: COMPACT FLOURESCENTS, like they did in the tunnel.
Wayne
They're already installing standard flourescent fixtures.
BTW, compact flourescents suck, I can come up with actual reasons later.
Well, I will rest my case about those on the G that were going to suffer having to change TWICE to a #7.
However, there will still be two transfers for an R from the G (Once at Court Sq to either the E/F or [future] #7), and another at either 74th/Roosevelt (#7, E/F) or QP (E/F) or 71st Ave (E/F).
Is the G at Court Sq. closer to the #7 station or the E/F?
Perhaps the MTA did think far enough about the consequences of reducing the G to Court Sq 24/7.
Nick
The 7 is upstairs, the G is underground. Is that closer than the tunnel to 23-Ely on the E/F? Maybe...
Chicago Tribune Article
From what I saw on the TV news, it appears that a pair of 2200-series cars had "jacknifed". That's about all the info I have.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It seems a spaceman descended upon R-4 #825 today:
So, Shore Line isn't the only place where this phenomenon has happened. Click here for another photo.
HA! That's a good one Evan. When you get to work on an RT Car like I have, you descend into a whole new world....
Just a question: Aren't spacemen supposed to be little green men from mars? All the spacemen I've seen wear white suits.
-Stef
Great stuff! thank you for sharing !
avid
Yikes, that R4 is in bad condition. Who painted it that red color?
BTW, any report on how the rehab of my namesake, #6398, is doing?
On average every other weekend some work is done on the R-16 car. The main thrusts remain finishing the exterior paint and working on the flooring.
The R-4 has been sporting red primer paint for a number years now. I think the Q car is next on the queue after the R-16 to get major restoration work done.
As usual, more volunteers and money welcome to help move things along...
...........I could see the outer space-man saying """"eeeekkkk"""" likum rail-fan -window-.........ooooooooo...!!!!
......nothing like a good old railfan window equipped pre world war 2 rail car ....................
now about that r 142 junkers ???
Evan, I too enjoyed the photos very much. It gives me, and I'm sure most of the SubTalkers here, pleasure to see work being to to restore/stablize some of our favorite cars, no matter where they are residing !
BTW, Steff, Doug the BMT man & Phil (new member of 3/4 ton crew) were on top of the R-17 at Shoreline this Sat. getting the last of the white primer on the roof, while Lou from Brooklyn & I were doing birthday parties in monkey suits ... Ding Ding
Mr t__:^)
Were marker lights ever used on the R26,28,29,33, and 36 cars?????? I noticed that they are being used today......
BM34x
The marker lights were used on all the cars years ago. They could be set to show red, white, green or yellow. There was a "color code" to be followed to indicate route/destination, if you go to Joe Korman's website, he has it all illustrated there.
All three divisions of NYCTA had such a color code system, and PATH did too.
Even though marker lights are no longer used by NYCTA, here in Chicago the CTA 'L' trains still use the colored marker lights.
-- Ed Sachs
PATH still uses marker lights. I will list the codes as seen from the platform looking at the oncoming train. First color listed is the left marker light
Red /Red..........Newark to WTC
Yellow / Yellow...Journal Square to 33
Blue / Blue.......Hoboken to 33
Green / Green.....Hobken to WTC
Blue/Yellow.......Journal Square to 33 Via Hoboken
All trains use Red/ Red as rear marker lights
Gotham Turnstiles has a complete listing of PATH marker light combinations - from an earlier time. It would be interesting to see if those same combinations were in use back then.
->Red /Red..........Newark to WTC
->Yellow / Yellow...Journal Square to 33
->Blue / Blue.......Hoboken to 33
->Green / Green.....Hobken to WTC
->Blue/Yellow.......Journal Square to 33 Via Hoboken
->(The above was what subway-buff@mindspring.com posted.)
Checking "Gotham Turnstiles", there are 12 combinations listed, but I'll only reference the ones above.
Red/Red...........Park Place to Hudson Terminal (SAME, BASICALLY)
Yellow/Yellow.....Light Train (I guess they mean a deadhead move.)
Blue/Blue.........Blues not used!!!
Green/Green.......Hoboken to 33rd St.
Blue/Yellow.......Blues not used!
And from the same source ... the combination for Summit Avenue (now Journal Square) to 33rd Street was white/white, Hoboken to Hudson Terminal was red/green (local) or green/red (express). There was no Summit Avenue/Journal Square to 33 via Hoboken.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone have an updated listing
Thanks
Steve
I can give you a partial list, based on what I remember... I can't make any guarantees of accuracy here, though.
Red Line: Yellow / Yellow
Brown Line: Red / Green (or Green / Red... I forget)
Purple Line: Lunar White / Lunar White
Blue Line (Congress branch): Yellow / Yellow
Blue Line (Douglas branch): Red / Green (or Green / Red)
Orange Line: ??
Green Line (Englewood branch): ??
Green Line (Jackson Park branch): ??
Yellow Line: ??
Since I have a couple weeks off before I move (not exactly my choice -- My employer felt my services were no longer needed), I plan on doing a bit of riding throughout the CTA system to take photos and write up a line-by-line description for nycsubway.org. I'll be sure to make note of the marker lights.
-- David
Chicago, IL
N QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY EXP
N QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY LOCAL
Q TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
Q QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
R TO DITMARS BLVD BROADWAY LOCAL
R QUEENSBORO PLZ BROADWAY LOCAL
S TO DITMARS BLVD
S QUEENSBORO PLZ SHUTTLE
T TO DITMARS VLD VIA BROADWAY
T QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
Q TO DITMARS BLVD VIA BROADWAY
Q QUEENSBORO PLZ VIA BROADWAY
TO DITMARS BLVD
TO ASTORIA BLVD
TO 30 AV/QUEENS
TO BROADWAY /QNS
TO 36 AV/QUEENS
TO 39 AV/QUEENS
QUEENSBORO PLZ
A TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON EXP
A TO CONEY ISLAND VIA 6 AV BRIGHTON LOCAL
B TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV LINE VIA BRIGHTON
B TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY VIA BRIGHTON
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV LINE VIA BRIGHTON
B TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV VIA CULVER
G HOYT - SCHERMERHN CROSSTOWN LOCAL
A train to Brighton Beach?
That's interesting.
READ SOME OF THE OTHERS,,,AND MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE TO COME
STEVE
Q to Atlantic Av
Q to Prospect pk
Q to Brighton Bch 6 Av Express Brighton Local
Q to Brighton Bch via Broadway Brighton Exp
Q to Brighton Bch via Broadway Brighton Local
Q to Coney Island 6 Av Express Brighton Exp
Q to COney Island 6 Av Express Brighton Local
Q to Coney Island via Broadway Brighton Exp
Q to Coney Island via Broadway Brighton Local
S to Atlantic Av Shuttle
S to Prospect Pk Shuttle
S to Kings Highwy Shuttle
S to Brighton Bch Shuttle
S to W 8 St / Bklyn Shuttle
S to Coney Island Shuttle
v to Brighton Bch via 6 Av Brighton Exp
V to Coney Island via 6 Av Brighton Local
W to Brighton Bch via Broadway Birghton Exp
W to Coney Island Via Broadway Brighton Local
to Dekalb Av
to Atlantic Av
to 7 Av /Bklyn Brighton Line
to Prospect Pk
to Parkside Av
to Church Av Brighton Line
to Beverly Rd
Page 7
to Cortelyou Rd
to Newkirk Av
to Avenue H
to Avenue J
to Avenue M
to Kings Highway Brighton Line
to Avenue U Brighton Line
to Neck Road
to Sheepshead ( This is the exact reading)
to Brighton Bch
to Ocean Pkwy
to w 8 st/Bkln Brighton Line
to W 8 st/Bklyn
to Coney ISland Brighton Line
to Coney Island
B to 57 st/ 7 Av via Broadway
B to 57 st/7 Av Shuttle
D to 57 st/7 Av via Broadway
E to 34 st/Bway via Broadway
E to Canal St via Broadway
E to Whitehall St via Broadway
N to lex Av/60 st
N to 57 st/7 Av Broadway Exp
N to 57 st / 7 Av 4 Av Express Broadway Local
N to 57 St/7 Av 4 Av Local Broadway Exp
N to 57 st / 7 Av Broadway Local
I understand there was a recent list with over 1100 signs,,,my listing is from 1996 /=====dated 3/19/91
---total 1087 Signs
Please contact me on Smokiecat@webtv.net
The color of the PATH marker lights correspond to the colors used on the system map.
Red: WTC-NWK
Yellow: JSQ-33rd
Blue: HOB-33rd
Green: HOB-WTC
Blue/Yellow: 33rd/HOB-JSQ/HOB
I referred to the above routes as they appear on the signs on the sides of the train.
Right! I just answered the question with rgeards to marker lights.
The WTC Express trains in the AM from Newark still use red/red marker lights. The startiong lights flash " E X P R E S S " and an announcer will say " this is an express train" (and so will the conductor). The last local before the express an announcer will say "The next train will be an express. This is a local train."
I found this listing on the Model Railroader web site:
Jersey City: Liberty State Park Train and Transit Show - May 20-21. Restored CNJ passenger terminal. Sat. 10 a.m. to 5 p.m., Sun. 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. $6. Mike Lech, Big City Expos, 814-255-1650; maljst@aol.com.
-Dave
This came up at our Ntrak club meeting last night too. Apparently it's a different bunch of folks than have sponsored the previous shows at Liberty State Park. There will be model displays, dealers, and who knows what all else. The State of New Jersey is apparently underwriting at least part of the expense too. I won't be able to attend myself since I'll be in Virginia for my younger daughter's college graduation that Sunday, but hopefully some of you all can go and report.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If he drops out there will simply be no choice but to take Conductor Steinbach and force him to run in Guilianis place. However since Guiliani has to drop out of being the mayor anyhow this also would be an excellent oppourtunity for Steinbach to become mayor
SubTalker heypaul has better credentials. :-)
thanks doug for your endorsement... but i don't think this city is ready for me... now that i've gotten back into scrolling text, i am afraid that i would hold a press conference, and have scrolling text at the bottom of the screen saying what i really felt... i think this city needs a leader who says what he/she means... as anyone who knows me should know: i never say what i really mean
except for now
maybe
i just realized... there aren't 3 f's in affect...
there are 4 f's.... which coincidentally was my
draft status years ago... and there aren't just
2 p's in dropping... there are 4 p's... i'm not even gonna mention the r's in correction
............I wont miss rude rudy G and his backing of police brutality rape and murder !!.......good riddance !!
Let's put it this way: if heypaul were elected mayor, one of his top priorities will be improving the math skills of every New Yorker.:-)
Not to mention having his CC tape piped through City Hall as an endless loop....
I'd go for that!
Peace,
ANDEE
no i think conductor steinbach should run for
senator and let
why am i getting involved in this?
subway_crash_means_more_money_for_transit run for
mayor... this way when there is a subway crash or
derailment, subway_crash can go to the scene and
have a much larger forum for his ideas...
i am hopeless
here's a math question.... if the two scrolling
text initially start out in synch, how many seconds
will have to go by for them to be back in synch
(being in synch means moving head to head across the
screen)
(assume constant velocity)
(hint: the biot savart law is not necessary here)
(i have no intention of figuring this out myself)
here's a math question.... if the two scrolling text initially start out in synch, how many seconds will have to go by for them to be back in synch (being in synch means moving head to head across the screen)
(assume constant velocity)
(hint: the biot savart law is not necessary here)
(i have no intention of figuring this out myself)
E. Not enough infomation has been provided for solving this problem
Just out of curiosity. If I were to visit the Shore Line Trolley Museum on any given Sunday in the next few weeks (which I am planning to do), how many folks from this web site would I be likely to meet ? It is my understanding that some of you volunteer there on a weekly basis.
If you were to venture to Shoreline on Sunday, May 28th you are likely to run into at least three SubTalkers: myself, Lou from Brooklyn and Stef. There is also the possibility that Jeff H. or Thurston might be up there too.
Usually Lou, Thurston, and myself are up on Saturdays, but due to specific work being done to the R-17 car, we are working Sundays for a bit (not next Sunday, where I'll be involved in the Atlantic Avenue/B'way Junction/Canarsie Line tour -- see previous posting on this).
Doug aka BMTman
I am there virtually every Sunday. Wear old clothes and you can join the crew.
If you're also able to pick either of the following two weekends there will be some special things happening there:
- May 20 & 21 = Silent Film Festival
- June 17 & 18 = Pagent of 100-year-olds, many still operate and are in fine condition, 316 from Union Ry/3th Ave Ry Sys. comes to mind. I had the please of a ride with her Members Day of this year ... mfg 1895
Mr t__:^)
316 - quite a pretty car! You may have only had the pleasure of a ride, Thurston, but I had the pleasure of operating her out to Short Beach. Quite an experience, especially with the manual brakes, which were much smoother and easier to operate than I expected.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since the subject of 316 has come up recently I would just like to say as a friend of both I have passed on to Rich and Ron all the comments on how excellent the restoration has come out, and that everyone appreciates the work both of them as well as Charlie Loinaz have done.
Why does Amtrak and the LIRR (and probably other RRs) insist on using european work trains with the funny chain link buffer couplers? How can they attach to regular freight cars with those couplers? Why don't American companies like sperry rail make good work equipment that major American RRs would buy?
Daniel
The bottom line is $$$. I bet the American-made equivalent work cars would be more expensive.
Also, keep in mind that Europe as a whole has a more vested interest in railroads (America is more dependant on gas-powered motive power). They tend to have more-intensive high-tech work equipment, at least over the past ten-twenty years.
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone have any information on the Brooklyn Trolley Museum?
Such as whether it is possible to visit?
Contact Bob Diamond (bowtrolley@email.msn.com). He posts here on occasion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We will be operating Oslo #3 this Saturday, May 20th during the Brooklyn Waterfront Artists Coalition festival from approx. 10am to 3pm. Hope to see you all there.
Please keep your arms and head inside the car. Hooold tight.
Dave - we'll be sending you updated pics for the BHRA/BTM section.
I was travelling on the Bklyn line of the LIRR to take my son Arthur to the C.I. Aquarium today. I noticed something at the E.NY Station which I never noticed before. At the extreme east end of what looks like part of the W/B platform (even though its pretty dark there as if its in the tunnel) there appears to be an old stairway going down. Now since I saw it from the train I couldn't see if its closed off or cemented in. Although it possibly could lead to an old storage room or an old crossover there is a big possibility it led to the old station on the Bay Ridge Branch. Its in the right place. I know there was once an elevator between the 2 stations.Is there anyone out there that knows for sure?
P.S. To Fred in Calif & Bob in Hawaii: From the LIRR to Coney Is I took the Sea Beach to and the Brighton fro. Sorry guys, the West End beats both hands down!!!
Jeff, having visited the Bay Ridge branch's hi-level platform at E. NY last year, all I can say is that if there were elevators or staircases there, all remnants have since been. That staircase may indeed lead to the Bay Ridge branch below, but perhaps directly to the roadbed on the Bay Ridge's western-most tunnel (southbound track). The hi-level platform is an island-type, situated between the two eastern-most or northbound tracks abutting Van Sinderin Ave. And only the southern-half is accessible since the northern side is cinderblocked over with some -- LIRR/MTA? -- installation of some kind. I think it was a generating or A/C plant. There was no way to tell, but it made a hell of a racket.
If you're interested, contact me at my e-mail address as I'll be putting together another Bay Ridge Walking tour at some point before the real summer heat sets in. Exploring the East New York tunnel might reveal some answers to your question.
Doug aka BMTman
Could that tour be combined with the Canarsie /Atlantic Ave Station tour?
Avid
Going to Coney Island the Culver's nice too..good view of the Manhattan skyline fromSmith/9th especially at night. Think I'll start plugging for the Culver.. nobody else seems to (all in fun but it's worth its salt)
I was at Linden NJ visiting my grandma today when one of the Acela Regional trains raced down the NEC. What exactly is the differance between them and regular Amtrak service? I noticed that that train (headed by new AEM7AC #924) was painted in the new aqua color sceme, and seemed quieter. Why are they running Acela Regional down the same piece of track where they are going to run Acela Express? I'm sure this also confuses other commuters and travellers.
-Daniel
Quick note: There is no way to tell from observation alone if any given train is Acela Regional or just normal Metroliner/NE Direct. Amtrak does not care what rolling stock goes on what trains. Aclea painted coaches and locomotives can be used on non-Aclea serivces and vice versa. The only differance is that Aclea Regional trains go through to Boston 100% electric. You need to check the time table for that info.
So, are some trains still changing power at New Haven, then?
Yeah, you can still go there and catch all the action. I'm sure that all the power change workers are happy for all the Acela delays. If we're lucky they might more the change out to Harrisburg so it would still be possible to see some Main Line power changes.
-Keep the dream alive.
I doubt we'll ever see any more mainline power changes in my humble home city of Harrisburg, PA. The reason is because
1) there's not enough equipment to risk stranding needed-much-more-on-the-NEC electric locomotives there (they don't do it there now because Keystone schedules are unfriendly in this regard), and
2) mainly, the NY & Pittsburgh subway is no longer in use -- PA Mainline trains changing power @ 30th St. is not really a power issue, its a directional one. Trains from NYP enter 30th St. heading south. The Mainline emerges from 30th St. Sta. heading north before turning west. I have had the occasional pleasure, in the past few years, of riding electric all the way from NYP to Harrisburg, but 2 different AEM7's were used anyway! I've never ridden Harrisburg to Philly electric in the 5 years I've been doing it *regularly*. (Lately, if I'm lucky, I get to ride in one of those "new" "Acela Regional" business coaches! -- tho the name refers to the service, not the equipment.)
However, last I read, the plan is to run Phila. - Harrisburg Keystone Service all-electric. (I'm thrilled by this!) This will happen once equipment (AEM7's) becomes available resulting from the utilization of the new "Acela Express" trainsets (instead of some AEM7AC's) on the NEC. Also, we may even see the end of the engine switch in Philly for all but the 2 inter-city trains (Three Rivers & Manhattan Limited), as some or all Philly - Harrisburg "Keystone" trains are meant to use the new track connection & terminate @ Suburban Sta.! (A very *bad* idea, IMHO, as I currently enjoy thru service betw. NYP & HAR!)
Why doesn't Amtrak consider the use of bi-directional MUs for Harrisburg as well as Springfield service? Then you could still have through service from Harrisburg to New York and they wouldn't have to change power at New Haven for trains to Springfield.
Probably because of the experience with the Metroliners. Traditional MUs aren't all that good for high-speed long-distance service. Also, they'd still need to change power at New Haven for Springfield service.
-Hank
Not necessarily! Amtrak tested Flexliner DMUs around the country from 1996 to 1998. These MUs run successfully in Denmark, Sweeden and Israel. From what I've read, the Amtrak tests went well. They make an electric-powered Flexliner and the electric and diesel versions can operate together. The top speed for the Flexliner DMUs is 115 mph and the EMUs can do 125. They look nice too, with really large windows.
Last fall I went back and forth from Boston to New York every week, and never once failed to hop off at New Haven and watch the power change. It was kinda weird once the rebuilding of track started, the locos were coming from really far up and down the line. Does anyone have a map of the trackage at New Haven before the reworking started?
Dave
There are currently two electric trains in each direction (one AM and one PM) on weekdays. On weekends, it's one train in each direction. All of the rest are diesel. The rumor mill has additional electrics being added over the summer as engines become available.
There are three things to decide whether to put additional electrics north of New Haven.
(1) when Acela Express starts its revenue service
(2) the continued test of HHL-8s
(3) the performances of AEM7ACs.
If one of these factors is doing well, we will see more electrics running north (or east) of New Haven.
Chaohwa
I saw the #924 (and #927) on (I think) either Metroliner or Acela Regional service on the NEC at Linden NJ at about 3:33 PM. I was waiting for the 3:45 NJT train the NYC. I think #924 was in Northeast Direct livery and #927 was in regular Amtrak livery.
-Daniel
I look up the northeast timetable and found the train you were watching was Metroliner 214. Acela Regional 132 won't arrive at Metropark until 3:50PM.
AEM7AC 924 is actually in Acela livery, i.e., nearly all gray look. It is common to see an AEM7AC accompanied by an AEM7. It is to make sure when an AEM7AC is down, the other AEM7 can pick up the power.
Chaohwa
These are powered with AEM7's?
There are four Acela Regional trains, two for northbound and two for southbound during weekdays. All Acela Regional trains consist of two AEM7s and eight to ten cars. All rail cars are refurbished and painted in Acela livery.
Currently AEM7ACs are not good enough to haul Acela Regional trains because Amtrak wants the most reliable AEM7s to haul trains between Boston and DC.
Of course some refurbished cars are mixed in NortheastDirect and Metroliner trains. If you want to see when Acela Regional trains come by, remember to bring Amtrak Northeast timetable.
Chaohwa
What tracks do you expect Amtrak to run trains on? Acela is designed to 'rebrand' Amtrak's Northeast and Empire Corridor services. Metroliners will be renamed 'Acela Express' when the new trains come online. Northeast Direct (trains from NYC and south to Boston, Springfield, and points north) and NYC-Philadelphia services, and other 'short-distance' runs, such as the Clockers, will be renamed 'Acela Commuter'. In addition to the rebranding, the majority of the Amfleet cars assigned to NE and Empire Corridor service will have their interiors completely refurbished in new colors and comfort levels.
-Hank
Frankly I'd be fine with crappy cars and the same PRR era Metroliner name.
Did any RR buy the old PRR/Amtrak Budd Metroliner MUs or were the scrapped? I think the new drab grey color sceme for the AEM-7s in Acela service looks ugly and bland. I much prefer the old red white and blue livery of regular AEM-7s.
They were scrapped or rebuilt. Amtrak uses rebuilt Metroliner cab cars on the Vermonter and California Capitol Corridor service, although 'Cabbage Cars' made from rebuilt F40s are starting to show up; they'll be used on the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited. The body style of the Metroliner MUs were used as the pattern for Amfleet I and II.
-Hank
Amtrak used the Budd EMU's up until they early 80's when the AEM-7's came on the scene. I remember seeing a few of them sitting in the Penn Coach Yard around 1990. They were still powered at that time. Amtrak also used to use them on the Atlantic City Line before they pulled out in 1993. I remember seeing some that still had the pantograph and transformer hump on the head end of the trains. Also don't forget that the ConnDot SPV's are Metroliners powered by diesel engines (well not anymore) and they are still used in regular service.
The Budd 'SPV' You know the best joke about them, right? 'Seldom Propelled Vehicle'
They used the same body shells, and were an update to the venerable RDC. In the 60s and 70s when these things were built, they wanted them to resemble the new 'jetliners' as best as possible, and succeded. Unfortunately, until the powered cars were rebuilt into unpowered coaches, they were a maintainance headache, by all accounts.
-Hank
I thought the SPVs were built in the late 70s. Other than the MTA and ConnDOT, who purchased SPVs?
The demotored 'liners are used in Micigan-Chicago runs, but the Capitol Corridor service is all bilevel "California" cars. built to spec for in state services. As to car assignments/amenities in the NEC, when I rode in Nov 99 there was a single Acela upgraded coach on my train NB NYO-BOS with the electrics at my seat for the mythical laptop or boombox. The entire Acela rebranding effort IMHO is a sad example of misspent energies. They phoned up my sister in suburban DC last fall to ask all sorts of silly stuff. She basically told them just run the damn trains on time with enough seats and try cleaning them. 'nuff said.
You can see several of the old Budd MUs at the Wilmington shops...
Hey, don't get on Amtrak for trying to serve its customers better. From what I can tell Amtrak has been upgrading its coaches for several years now and Aclea will just give them a new warpper. Aclea aside Amtrak is very good in the customer service department. How many Airlines would call you up and ask your opinion? How many Airlines would call you up if there was some confusion as to how you wanted your ticket delivered to you? Whenever I have to call up to alter my ticket (usually due to my stupidity) the phohe personal are friendly and helpful and I would like to publicly acknowledge them here. Frankly anyone who flys is just a sucker.
There are situations where flying is the only valid option, like going cross-country.
Last year I tried to take Amtrak to China and they said they don't have a route going there, so I took the plane. Don't they have a carfloat accross the Bering Straight?
;-)
Daniel
I am certainly glad YOU are pleased with ATK service. My own experience however is less positive. Of course the problem could be that I am old enough to remember some REAL passenger trains in this country. But coach "attendants" who put on the walkman as we leave the station don't impress me very well. Nor am I pleased by the service in the 'lounge' cars--close NB somewher south of N Brunswick so the count is done by Newark--first body off the train at Penn. Run the overnight train Bos to Wash with full overhead lights on south of NY--howareya supposed to sleep?. All that said, come fall I will be riding again seeing friends and kin in the East anfd riding the IND, BMT, and IRT AND HBLR yay!
David, if you're like me your memories of the older trains are clouded by the mists of time, and quite possibly by the trains you rode. As a child I rode the rattletrap coaches, "change at Harmon", of the New York Central from Poughkeepsie to Grand Central, but I also rode the Broadway Limited from New York to Chicago and the Electroliner for the remainder of the journey to Milwaukee. I've also ridden the name trains of the C&O to Tidewater Virginia, the Twentieth Century Limited along the Water Level Route to Chicago, and the Silver Meteor to Florida, back when all those trains were run by the railroads who owned the tracks where they ran. So my experiences on Amtrak - many day-trains but also including its modern incarnation of the Silver Meteor and the Cardinal - have necessarily been viewed in that light. You are absolutely right when you say that the quality of the attendants is far below the standards set by the PRR, and that the lounge car closes way too early - not that I care much about what they have to offer, but it's the principle of the thing. On the other hand, I don't miss the lousy track that characterized the C&O route to Williamsburg in the '60s (we called it the "square wheels line") or the dirty stations of that era. Amtrak has insisted on better track for its trains and mostly clean stations these past few years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
First, who can you sleep with all the railfan action going on outside the window. I know its dark out, but if you press you head up against the window you can see ok. That or stand at the rear window. Second, why would you want to go to the lounge car. It just served overpriced food and again you're missing all the railfan action.
My only complaint w/ amtrak is that sometimes they the lounge car, first class or intermodal trailers on the rear of the train and it blocks the view out the railfan window. Also it would be nice it they would let me stand in the rear vestabule and/or provide me with a stool, because my back starts to hurt after 5 hours of standing up.
BTW, Daniel. When did you see AEM7AC 924 yesterday?
Chaohwa
I may have been in the dark for the past couple of years, but I just noticed today that they are building what seems to be a light rail or monorail link to EWR from a new station on the NJ Transit. So far, the elevated steel structure has crossed over many of the roads and railyards and is almost finished. The new station is brand new and has a huge building for the rail link interchange. Can someone tell me about this? It is obviously nothing new.
-Daniel
It's a monorail; it's been running for a few years and will soon be extended off the airport grounds to a new station on the NEC (National Electrical Code, just kidding).
Travel Town Museum here in los angeles is owned and operated by the city of los angeles department of recreation
and parks it is located at 5200 zoo drive right off highway here in grifffith park
A nice collection of steam and diesel and western electric locomotives freight cars and cabooses passenger cars
of many types........And the most interesting a ATSF electromotive gas electric powered motorcar,
los angeles metro horse pulled car an antique san francisco cable car and finally...............
a Los Angeles Metropolitan Transit Authority ........."" Red CAR ""........ pacific electric classic transit car ....
built by American Car and Foundry 1911 driver diameter 36' weight 61 tons .........!!!!!!
there she was my first chance to see a pacific electric classic rail car..... what a beautiful sight this was ........
I tried to get up on her so i could see the motorman controls.!!......... BIG RAILFAN WINDOW...
The dissapointment was that this car was blocked off the windows were fogged up & you could not see inside !!
and she was so high up into the air !!, a beautiful graceful work of art .......................
Man she was so big long high and tall !! I only wished that I could have hitched a ride on this !! she still looked modern !!
maybe one day the perris california railway red car museum......... I must go there ......!!!!!
travel towns website.. TravelTown@rap.lacity/org e mail
www.lacity.org/RAP/grifmet/tt ( web site ) ........
........has anyone seen the one acf red car at travel town ?? formerly with the pacific electric railway in
southern california ?? made the acf in 1911 ?
this is waht happens on this forum when you post an ON TOPIC question but if i talk about hot dogs & burgers...
........ a whole chain of off topic responses !!............
Well, since most of us haven't been to Travel Town ... but I'd like to get there someday!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
.......it is right off the highway 134 near the gene autry museum and across the river from some nyc ind bmt r 30s
..( uesd for props )... traveltown is free and has one working railroad ...a small loop around the park etc & a fleet of railroad type museum of vehicles !. open 10 am to 5 pm everyday quiet family frendly about a one acre site & they do have a website !!
the rest of the classic locomotives and train type cars are all resting there even one antique S.F. cable car.....
I of cource was dissapointed & the lack of attention paid to the acf built 1911 red pacific electric rail car...........
Travel Town is located in griffith park also a nice place to relax & visit during the day !!!!!
I visited last summer. I found the whole place disappointing. The rolling stock was in poor condition. As I recall, there was a SF cable car that looked particularly bad. I'm glad that I finally stopped in, after years of intending to go but never making it when visiting LA.
It is too bad. They have a lot of equipment and a nice facility. With a little money, it could be a good museum. It isn't a bad place for classes to visit. The kids were having fun. And, I suppose locomotive enthusiasts would probably like it. But, I was there to see California transit equipment and to look for California transit books in the shop, so I was disappointed.
........yes it is sad....... why dont they donate that pacific electric car to the orange transit museum in perris
california just off the 215 were a collection of pacific electric electric red cars run and are restored ??
and running !!!!
........yes it is sad....... why dont they donate that pacific electric car to the orange transit museum in perris
california just off the 215 were a collection of pacific electric electric red cars run and are restored ??
and running !!!!
........yes it is sad....... why dont they donate that pacific electric car to the orange transit museum in perris
california just off the 215 were a collection of pacific electric electric red cars run and are restored ??
and running !!!!
........yes it is sad....... why dont they donate that pacific electric car to the orange transit museum in perris
california just off the 215 were a collection of pacific electric electric red cars run and are restored ??
and running !!!!
Okay, I know everyone has a tight schedule and a tight budget, but is anyone interested in a trip to the Bombardier factory in Ontario? They make everything from european light rail cars to metros to Acela train sets. I don't even know if they let in visitors, but the idea just came to me and I think it would be interesting. Hypothetically, if this trip was planned, would anyone go?
-Daniel
Isn't the factory in QC? I mean it is a French name, and Armand Bombardier was a Quebecois person.
No, it's in Thunder Bay, Ontario.
Bombardier bought out Hawker Siddeley who owned that factory, and that's how they got it. If you want to see how Quebec the company is, check out their website and notice the occasional word or phrase in Frenglish, on the English version... This plant doesn't seem to have any of the quality control problems affecting the plant producing the New York R142 (correct me if I'm wrong about the number designation) cars. The T1s have been good enough cars, although we dislike them anyway for railfan reasons.
-Robert King
Thunder Bay is on the shores of Lake Superior. IIRC, it used to be two towns, Port Arthur and Fort William, which must have merged.
It's a fairly long trip from the East Coast and Colorado, for that matter.
Can anyone explain what the difference is between the GT and WD timers. The are both supposed to control speed so that there must be some differences.
One uses time in a block to calculate speed (the GT). If a train enters a block, and stops, the timer can go green (or yellow) and then the train can speed through the rest of the block at higher than the speed limit. In a WD, the system uses magnets to control speed. When a train lowers speed, the signal clears. When it speeds up, it goes red again, so the train can never go at a higher speed.
GT signals force the train to slow down as it approaches the signal. Once the signal clears, the train may then accelerate - providing ther are no other GT signals ahead of it - up to the posted speed for that area, which it must maintain until another speed is posted or the train makes a station stop. In the IRT at least, the speed posted for a GT area is generally 5 to 10 mph higher than the speed at which the signal will clear.
WD signals force the train to slow down as it approaches the WD area. The system uses a lunar white light to inform the TO of his compliance - if the light is flashing, the train is still going to fast and must slow down further before the next signal; if the light is solid, the train is moving at an allowable speed. Once the train is moving at the allowable speed for the WD area, it must maintain that speed (or slower) until the last axle of the train has moved over the last wheel detector. The TO knows when this occurs because he will pass agreen sign that says WD END. At this point, the train may once again accelerate to the normal speed for the area. If at any time while going thru the WD area, the train should overspeed, the system will apply the train's brakes in emergency
When/where was the third rail first used?
Arti
Professor Leo Daft electrified the Baltimore & Hampden Railway with a third rail raised on insulators between the running rails. Operation started in August 1885 and continued for four years. This information comes from "Who Made All Our Streetcars Go?" by Michael R. Farrell. There are several photos that document this operation. I don't know if this was the first use of third rail, but it must be among the first. The rail was electrified at 250 volts, and it operated in the street, making it somewhat hazardous for humans and livestock.
Street is not exactly what we consider it today. In 1885, north of today's West 25th Street the streets were little more than dirt paths wide enough for two carriges to pass unobstructed. The human population could be warned off with signs, but horses and livestock didn't figure it out until zapped. The B&H did replace the third rail with gaspipe "trolley wire" at major crossings. This required the motorman to be quite a busy fellow as the train (Daft Motor & horsecar) approached the crossing. He had to raise the overhead collector to the pipe, raise the third rail pickup wheel with a foot pedal, ring a gong, and watch for pedestrians/animals, all at the same time. The line reverted to animal power in 1889 due the Daft equipment being worn out. The Hampden electrifcation poisoned the City Council (despite being an rural village at the time, it was part of Baltimore City, having been annexed in the 1883 expansion of Baltimore. That moved the northern boundry from Boundry Avenue (Today's North Avenue) to the Cold Spring Lane.) against electricity to the point that the Baltimore City Passenger Railway was forced to install cable on 3 of it's major lines in the early 1890's because the City Council refused to allow the use of electricity.
Was the first B&O tunnel electrification in baltimore in the late 1800s third rail or catenary? I fancy it was AC.
-Daniel
The B&O's electrication of the Howard Street Tunnel and part of the Belt Line in 1893 was the first electrication of a steam railroad in the world. The line was initially equipped with overhead in the form of a Z-bar. This proved difficult to operate under, and a very high maintainence item. It was replaced around 1901-3 with standard overrunning third rail. The voltage used from opening in 1893 to abandonment in 1952 was 600 volts DC.
Northbound passenger trains picked up a motor at Camden Station, the motor pulled the train through the tunnel (It has a 1.5% upgrade) to a point near 25th Street & Huntingdon Ave, where the motor would be uncoupled at speed. The engineer of the steam locomotive would work steam leaving Mount Royal Station, along with the motor(s). Southbound trains drifted downgrade, the engineer would work steam just enough to get the train started, then shut off and drift to the stop at Camden.
Freights had an electric in both directions.
Did they ever get new motive power or did they keep using the 1896 engines until 1952? I have never seen any pics of later power.
They did get newer motors as the years pat, the fleet included BLW steeplecabs, a couple of box cabs, and believe it or not, the original GE motors of 1893 vintage remained in service until the late 1920's. One of them (No.1) was cosmetically "restored" and displayed at the B&O's centennal celebration, The Fair of the Iron Horse in 1928 and 29.
Frank J. Sprague was also experimenting with 3rd rail on
the 34 St shuttle branch of the Manhattan elevated system in
1884-1885.
There was an el on 34th St? Any more info about this?
A spur of the Third Avenue Line on 34th Street connected with Long Island Rail Road ferries to Long Island City starting in 1880. It was a popular way to reach Belmont Park Race Track. It was also used for electrification experiments mentioned earlier in this thread. Service was discontinued in 1930 and the structure was demolished. This information comes from "The New York Elevated" by Robert C. Reed.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20000513/wl/britain_duck_drama_1.html
The two events I will describe in this post happeded around the same time, 9:30 PM on Saturday, 13 May 2000:
• Between 61st St-Woodside and 52nd St-Lincoln Av: I see a train on the middle track. I couldn't give a positive I.D. on it because the train was somewhat crowded. Anyone have any idea as to what that train is and what it was doing there?
• 46th Street-Bliss Street: I see a train on the Flushing-bound side. I get off the Manhattan-bound train I was on and go downstairs to find fire fighters climbing up the stairs to the platform, and fire trucks on the street. What was going on there?
What exactly is a B&O Switch? I've seen signs that read that all along the #7 line. What is it?
Whenever I'm on an L train going through the 14th Street Tunnel, I see a sign that says GT 45. But all I see are red signals. No red over white, no yellow over S, just red. Of course, this means the train has to slow down at every signal and the signal clears just before the train passes said signal. I find it so annoying. Why can't they replace those antique signals with signals that can display the yellow over S indication, so the train can smoothly go from Bedford Avenue to First Avenue (or vice versa), without having the train slow down for every signal?
Sothings haven't changed since I left in l977? That red timer always bothered me. Adding a lunar as the rule book showed (red over lunar)would have been simple enough. It isn't necessary to crowd the timers as I'venoticed most of the operators do (on my last visit) It's easier and smoother to keep speed down. Back in the days when violations weren't handled too roughly and we had the AB's which resetted trip cocks without going to the ground as on the R1-9 we cut the timers so close you couldn't see them go yellow from the railfan window! Then we got the R9's and were more careful. But indeed, those signals always should have been red over lunar, and it would be less stressful on the operator and smoother for the passengers if they'd just lay back a bit and let the timer clear. Everything from the R10 up had self resetting trip cocks but I imagine they deal with it pretty strictly now if you trip, even on a timer.
Better yet, make them yellow-S. I don't think there's a single high speed run besides 14th Street that uses anything other than that on the timer signals.
Aren't all the signals on the 'L' supposed to be replaced when the R-143 comes so they can test CBTC?
yes
You get a guy who knows how to play the timers like a fiddle - AND put him in a Slant R40 and you'll get the same thing - right up to the timer and BANG - You can barely see the yellow. Of course, most T/O's aren't so bold... but you can ask my friend Simon Billis, he was right there with me at the window of #4399 that Saturday and we got quite an eyeful going out to Brooklyn. We were both wondering aloud just how the T/O managed to play the timers so skillfully.
Wayne
Maybe we'll get lucky this October.
Well, with an additional 4½ consists of Slant R40 now populating the "L", our odds of getting one have increased. Let's put the outbound "L" trip on the to-do list this time around. Sounds like a good ride.
Also let's check out Montrose Avenue station, some interesting things there and in the surrounding neighborhood.
Wayne
I'd love to get off at Lorimer St. for old time's sake and look around. We wouldn't have to leave the paid fare zone. That's where we disembarked every Saturday morning and boarded in the afternoon for three years. I'm heavily into nostalgia, as you can probably tell.
OK, Lorimer Street is on the agenda.
Since we would probably be armed with fun passes, we could pop outside a bit.
They've done a nice renovation at Lorimer Street. To wit:
New tablets - Duplicating the originals.
New sections of frieze at platform level - exact duplicate of original.
New friezes in east end mezzanine - duplicates the original.
New Artwork in the east end mezzanine.
New directional signs in the east end mezzanine in the original style.
New platform surface and white wall tile.
New lighting throughout the station.
wayne
I don't suppose the Iron Maiden setup is still there on the Manhattan-bound side, or for that matter the boarded-up token booth. I even remember a partial "Tokens 15c, how many, please?" sticker on that booth. Quite frankly, I'd be very tempted to retrace the path we took to Annunciation School, down Metropolitan Ave. We'll see.
Has it really been 30 years since I've seen that station? Heck, today marks 20 years since my college graduation - the very same day Mt. St. Helens blew its top.
4½ consists? What, one train is half R40M/42 and the other half is R40 slant?
I think Wayne means there are four 8-car trains of slants, plus one 4-car train. AFAIK, the slant R-40s run exclusively in solid trains.
I remember riding on an N train that had six R-42 cars, and four R-32 cars (or was it the other way around?). I think there's also a picture somewhere on this site with R40 slants running with B-division Redbirds.
There was a brief period after the B division merger in late l967 maybe thru l968, can't remember exact dates where mixed consists were run on the B division. Thankfully the practice was stopped as they handled terribly. It continued on the A division for years with poor handling but at least car weights were relatively similar. (Indeed the R26-36 were a few tons lighter)
The thing is that R-32's and R-42's don't look anything like each other.
The train ran at the same time Q trains were running with R-42 and R-40M cars, and R-40 slants were on the M as 4-car sets, and J trains were 6 cars long.
IOW, during the 1999 Williamsburg Bridge track work.
BTW, there's a picture in a book called New York City Subway Cars that shows, among other things, R62 cars on the 7, and an R62 at the end of a consist of R22 cars.
A group of R-62s ran tests on the Flushing line when they were first delivered. I've seen that very photo you're referring to, of that R-62 coupled to an R-22. Since they had the same H-2-C couplers, that part was easy. I'm not sure about the electric portions and air lines.
I remember seeing and riding on D trains consisting of four R-32s and four R-42s, with possibly another two R-32s on the end. The 1968-70 period, roughly, was the era of smorgasbord trains, as I liked to refer to them, on the B division. It seemed as though the cars were thrown together for yard moves, and the yard crews didn't bother to sort them out afterwards. I think I've seen that photo you're referring to.
No! It wasn't B-Division Redbirds, it was R38's! Here's the picture:
R40 slants and R38 cars. What a combination!
I also found one of '40-slants, '42s, and '32s ('38s?)
Looks like all 4, thanks for the great picture!
Peace.
ANDEE
Those are R-32s down there.
And two R-42s down at the end. Yep, a typical smorgasbord train from that era. I HATED mixed consists!!
BTW, have you seen that photo of R-42s and R-10s coupled together in the same A train? It's a good thing I never saw that train in person.
ACTUALLY, there were ALREADY 48 Slant R40 on the "L", about two months ago they sent another 28 out there, making a total of 76, which is 9 ½ 8-car consists. They usually have a couple of four-car lashups in the ENY Yard (maybe in the Rockaway Pkwy yard as well) as spares, these are all types: Slant R40, R40M and R42.
Cars #4370 thru #4449 are currently assigned to Eastern Div.
(80 unit numbers minus four wrecked/scrapped [4420,21,27,28]
= 76 cars)
wayne
The BMT standards regularly got up to at least 45, if not 50, in the 14th St. tunnel. The motorman would reapply power before reaching the lowest point in the tunnel, and the bull and pinion gears would sing out an F# or so above middle C, then rise another whole step before their pitch would start dropping slowly and steadily.
I wonder if that particular expansion joint I remember in the Brooklyn-bound tube is still there. It was past the lowest point, and as a train would pass it, you'd hear a loud ka-chink as each truck went by. You could even see it from the railfan window.
Actually they don't always slow down. On the 4th Avenue Express the trains seem like they are slowing down but if you've ever looked through the hinges of an R32 the train is actually picking up speed when it is being coasted. That's why the T/O has to apply the brakes.
Look through the hinges to see the digital speedometer, I presume.
on advice of my handlers (attendants) and
psychiatrists i will be seeking the support of the
ta power department workers for my run for senator..
i am currently polishing up my standard "watts the
unit of power speech?"... i am also interested in
discussing with the power department my idea of
eliminating on board train operators and operating
trains via remote control using lionel zw power
controllers, so that one operator could control 2
trains..
it is hoped that with 625 volts behind me, there
would be no stopping my candidacy... drs. howard,
fine, and howard also hope that 625 volts might help stabilize my mood swings..
on another front, i am reviewing the film career of
rodney dangerfield, hoping to win the support of the
concourse repair shops... if elected, i will promise
to make the r68's the official subway car of new
york state.
he'll never support you
what more can i do?
sarge... can i count on 10,000 volts from the city's finest?... if so, i will stop pandering to the ta and start pandering to the police department... it will probably be a good move, since i will need a lot of police protection if i am elected senator...
This Wed. at 4 PM we'll begin at Main Street Flushing, then meet additional SubTalkers at Times Sq (2/3) at 5 PM, then meet more folks at Atlantic/Pacific (N/R/B/M) at 6 PM ... we're taking the N to Coney Island & short tour of terminal complex there.
Read more about it in "Field Trip" section of this site.
Mr t__:^)
I'll be with you in spirit here in California. Glad to know you are taking the Sea Beach to Coney Island. I can tell by that that you are a man of class. Good show and have a great time.
Railfaning at a storm window via a open cut on a warm evening with some good friends, is there anything finer ?
Mr t__:^)
No there isn't Thurston but you're preaching to the choir. Try telling that to Brighton Express Bob and Doug aka BMT man. They're the ones who need convincing.
Fred, I've convinced Doug to come. He's done the same with me and Hippos & Rinos, i.e. I've come to appreciate a ride on a R-32, R-38 or even a R-44, but still don't care much for R-68s even though our friend Steve keeps them in tip top shape.
Mr t__:^)
No there isn't Thurston but you're preaching to the choir. Try telling that to Brighton Express Bob and Doug aka BMT man. They're the ones who need convincing.
Hey, have fun. I'll be there in spirit. The Rockies will be playing the Mets at Shea, coincidentally. It's the same old Rockies: outslugging the opposition at Coors Field, can't hit worth a lick on the road.
I was out of the house this past Saturday, so I programmed my VCR to record Transit Transit (Sat. 3:30 PM, Ch. 25 WNYE). When I got home to see what was recorded, I discovered some kind of Regents Review program, discussing math problems for the Sequential Math II Regents exam. I already took the exam (and passed with high marks, I'm happy to say) a couple of years ago, and I don't need it to be recapitulated. The questions: What does Channel 25 do to the displaced programs? Will Channel 25 broadcast the May edition of Transit Transit at any time before the end of the month, because the Regents isn't until mid-June. I sure hope so.
If you search around the TA's Web site you'll find the listing of the TV stations that carry Transit Transit ... Channel 71 (was 80) on Long Island is still carrying the show at the same time (Wed at 8 PM) and the new one for May started 5/10 ... not too much for subway fans this month.
Mr t__:^)
That doesn't help me. I DON'T HAVE CABLE!
GOOD FOR YOU!
Cable is evil!
If rotting your brain so you become like a certain person on this board I won't mention, at least do it right and get a sattelite dish.
Is he still around? He's still the one and only entry in my killfile.
[I was out of the house this past Saturday, so I programmed my VCR to record Transit Transit (Sat. 3:30 PM, Ch. 25 WNYE). When I got home to see what was recorded, I discovered some kind of Regents Review program, discussing math problems for the Sequential Math II Regents exam. I already took the exam (and passed with high marks, I'm happy to say) a couple of years ago, and I don't need it to be recapitulated.]
You didn't need to say that you scored well on the Regents math test; we could have figured out as much from the fact that you were able to program a VCR to record in your absence :-)
[You didn't need to say that you scored well on the Regents math test; we could have figured out as much from the fact that you were able to program a VCR to record in your absence]
It's not that hard to program a VCR. If anyone asks as to how, tell them to RTM!
i have always hated transit transit...
as a math tutor, i am happy to see that they are doing something useful with that time slot...
The show was on Channel 25 on May 6. The show was not that good. It had little to do with Transit. More about the circus.
It's not useful.
They should do more differential equations and calculus. At least some Napierian Logarithms to stimulate the mind.
BTW, are you ignoring me?
pigs asked if i am ignoring him....
pigs should know better than to ask personal questions on this message board... i have an e-mail address which is accessible to all... pigs should ask personal questions via e-mail...
i will ignore his e-mails also
WNYE is owned and Operated by the NYC Bd of Ed, so educational shows will take precedence over most anything else.
-Hank
Transit Transit is still on WNYE, subject to pre-emption. To see WNYE's program schedule, click here.
To see at a glance when Transit Transit is on with the next two weeks,
click here.
--Mike
I had a similar experience a while back. I had attempted to set my VCR to tape some shows on Channel 9 (WWOR), but unfortunately I ended up taping something that was apparently called the Golden Eagle Awards, or something like that. I don't know what happened; I could not find any such show in the TV listings, and the shows I wanted to record were listed in all TV listings I had. And just my luck, the shows I wanted to watch were never aired again. I must have set the VCR for the wrong time.
This was about ten years ago.
Does anybody have a definitive answer to the question of whether the Airtrain facilities are theoretically able to accommodate NYC subway service?
In theory the tracks can handle subway cars, however..the aerial guideway would not structurally be able to deal with subway vehicles. Especially over the Van Wyck..supported by single columns. Check out www.jfkairtrain. com for pictures
I see. Well then the entire project really seems very misconceived. No chance of ever being able to incorporate it within the larger system. What an awful piece of public policy!!
duh!!!
All of this dumb public policy and stupid waste of taxpayer dollars because Robert Moses did not allow for the provision of a transit envelope down the center of the Van Wyck when it was being design and constructed. No one ever stood up to him!
Yes, and the decision to build the Airtrain in its current configuration rather than in one compatible with the Subway (perhaps along the Rockaway r/w?) seems very much more the same short-sighted Moses-like anti-transit (prejudiced?) nonsense.
Was the proposal ever set forth to run the LIRR down the center of the LIE? How would stations have been set up if it actually did go through? Would they be elevated? I attribute most of NYC's plaguing traffic problems to Moses. Although he opened up a lot of land for development, he should have made more concessions to transit, instead he felt that "highways will end traffic jams forever" and was too short-sighted.
I also blame his for a lot of NY's suburban sprawl which I hate. Suburbs are not only cheap cookie-cutter communities made of cheese, but they also breed the type of mentality that drives kids and other people to commit offensive acts. You never see a Neo-nazi or skinhead group in a city office tower. Only in the suburbs. Without Moses's massive highway system to the undeveloped areas around NYC, the sprawd would have been limited to the five boroughs.
More teansit would have exposed diversity to these isolated people and might have prevented the prejudice that many suburbanites have towards minorities.
As a note, I hate SUVs. Even Ford motor company amitted that they are ecologically unsound. The New York Times, May 13 A1.
-Daniel
[I also blame him for a lot of NY's suburban sprawl which I hate. Suburbs are not only cheap cookie-cutter communities made of cheese, but they also breed the type of mentality that drives kids and other people to commit offensive acts. You never see a Neo-nazi or skinhead group in a city office tower. Only in the suburbs. Without Moses's massive highway system to the undeveloped areas around NYC, the sprawd would have been limited to the five boroughs. More teansit would have exposed diversity to these isolated people and might have prevented the prejudice that many suburbanites have towards minorities.]
You are being *way* too simplistic. Suburban sprawl [1] exists just about everywhere in the United States. New York may not even be the worst example, if you take population into account. For instance, the Atlanta metropolitan area has maybe one-quarter the population of New York's, yet spreads out in most directions about 50 miles from downtown. You're talking several thousand square miles. I understand that Phoenix is almost as spread out. And needless to say, neither city had anyone like Robert Moses.
It's reasonable to say that suburban development is one of these things that'll happen, no matter what. While some people of course enjoy living in cities, most people prefer a little more elbow room. The lure of the single-family house with a yard is a strong one, something almost visceral in nature. I don't know whether this is something inherent in people - going back to when Uggah the Neanderthal moved to a new cave because the old one was too crowded - or whether it's something conditioned in us, of more recent vintage, but it's definitely there. And efforts to fight this urge are doomed to failure. Many if not most people like suburban living, and that's just the way things go.
Moreover, I fail to see what is so bad about suburban living. Remember that retail and commercial development has spread to the suburbs too, meaning that most conveniences are reasonably close at hand even in the more exurban areas. I live quite far into Suffolk County, near Exit 64 of the Long Island Expressway, yet even here almost anything we need is within a 15 minute drive, usually less. True, a car is a virtual necessity here, but that's true in most places outside a relative handful of cities. I'd certainly like to see more transit, but it wouldn't be remotely cost-effect here - Suffolk County Transit's farebox recovery ratio already is the saddest song you've ever heard. But keep in mind that people who move into these less-dense suburban areas presumably know about auto dependency, and are willing to accept that as a price for the lifestyle they covet.
As far as suburban bigotry is concerned, I won't deny that it might exist, but it also exists - and might in fact be worse - in the cities. And you might also be surprised to see how diverse most suburbs have become. The desire for a single-family house with a yard is most assuredly *not* a white phenomenon.
[1] A Supreme Court justice (Potter Stewart?) made a famous comment about pornography that applies to suburban sprawl as well: it's impossible to define, but you know it when you see it.
[ The lure of the single-family house with a yard is a
strong one, something almost visceral in nature.]
Well this is true--for America. Take any European city for example. None of them have sprawl farter than 20 miles from the center of the city. Everyone there seems to be pretty content. That desire for a yard and a house which is part of the "American Dream" is way overrated. The result are these communities that you see popping up all over America. I have many problems with these communities.
First of all, the houses are made of crap (hollow plastic composite doors, weak wood contruction, strange non-practical designs). Second, they are all the same, creating a vast wilderness of homogeneous structures--an unwelcome sight in my eye. Third, these communities are being built far from any urban centers. I know someone who lives in one of these in the middle of NJ 70 miles from Philly and NY (she works in NY). Fourth, the "mauling" or "malling" of America has made popular bulk shopping and strip malls. Nowhere in suburbia could you find an independent "mom and pop" or corner bodega amidst the national chains in the malls. And fifth, they consume vital forestland which is fast disappearing from the American scene yet is essential in our ecosystem.
-Daniel
Actually, there are more trees -- planted as windbreaks and for soil erosion prevention -- in the middle sections of the United States than there were at the turn of the century.
As far as urban sprawl goes, the cities that have grown up in the last 30 years in those areas, with no natural barrier such as a lake or ocean on one side to block growth, you now tend towards creation of a "second downtown" one built near the most affluent areas near the loop highway around the city. Upscale malls move into the area, followed by commerical office buildings, and then suddenly you create a new commuting pattern, where drivers are going across the flow of the traditional travel patterns towards downtown.
That makes mass transit systems even tougher to get past the public, because planners want to built them (light or heavy rail) the same way the DC Metro was built, with all lines leading into the downtown area. But for those people who live in the suburbs and are commuting across the outer edge of the city, they see no benefit in paying for thses systems, since they don't go to where they want to go, unless they want to travel all the way downtown and then back out again.
To the extent that Moses played a role in the development of the Interstate Highway System's layout in the 1950s, he deserves some of the blame for this, since these "second downtowns" had begun sprining up even before Moses was forced out of power in the late 1960s.
Every time I'm moving on the Northern State and look over and see the LIE bumper to bumper I thank G-d for a man like Robert Moses!!!!!
[Every time I'm moving on the Northern State and look over and see the LIE bumper to bumper I thank G-d for a man like
Robert Moses]
Its funny that you say that because the Northern State is not as direct a route out to LI than the LIE. As you may have noticed, the Northern State swings way south away from the LIE to avoid the homes of Moses's affluent and influential friends. It is not until many miles later does the Northern State swing back, making it "the long way around". Yes, thank Moses for his twisty road that was not as direct as the LIE.
So, he built both.
So he obviously corrected his mistakes.
If he hadn't built either, the price of potatoes would be lower.
And how then would the potatoes get to market?
On the NY&A?
Modern industry is stupid and therefore prefers trucking.
The potatoes would come from someplace else and not be cheaper.
[Its funny that you say that because the Northern State is not as direct a route out to LI than the LIE. As you may have noticed, the Northern State swings way south away from the LIE to avoid the homes of Moses's affluent and influential friends. It is not until many miles later does the Northern State swing back, making it "the long way around". Yes, thank Moses for his twisty road that was not as direct as the LIE.]
Remember, though, that the Northern State (like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut) was built almost as much for pleasure drives in the country than it was for ordinary commuting. Long Island was far less developed in the 1930's than it is today and LIRR service was more extensive. Not many people used the Northern State for commuting and hence its admittedly roundabout routing was less of a concern. You might say that the driving experience was meant to be savored. Sounds corny by today's standards, but things were different then.
[Remember, though, that the Northern State (like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut) was built almost as much for pleasure drives in the country than it was for ordinary commuting. Long Island was far less developed in the 1930's than it is today and LIRR service was more extensive. Not many people used the Northern State for commuting and hence its admittedly roundabout routing was less of a concern. You might say that the driving experience was meant to be savored. Sounds corny by today's standards, but things were different then.]
To say the least! I wonder how many of us could do as well as Moses did if we had to meet the transportation needs of 2070? "What a creep that Hill was, advocating subway lines instead of twisty highways fit for robo-crawlers . . . "
Josh, while I agree with your comment about hindsight, I wonder if any of RM's contemporaries anticipated the eventual problems that RM's approach has led to. If so, he should be criticized, not for what we can see now but for what others saw then.
Right you are Pete! Before we moved to California in 1954, we loved to travel on the Northern State Parkway. The only problem was that then it deadended in the middle of nowhere in Suffolk County and we had to take Sunrise Highway, the Jericho Turnpike or some other road to get to Selden where my maternal grandparents finally settled. In fact, we got from the NSP to Lake Ronkankamo and Patchogue where we had friends and almost bought a home in 1953. I'm told the Northern State still deadends where it did in '54, but the rest of the place has built up considerably. BTW, when the the Big Lie finished? I don't remember ever traversing it. Was it built after the mid-1950's?
[Right you are Pete! Before we moved to California in 1954, we loved to travel on the Northern State Parkway. The only problem was that then it deadended in the middle of nowhere in Suffolk County and we had to take Sunrise Highway, the Jericho Turnpike or some other road to get to Selden where my maternal grandparents finally settled. In fact, we got from the NSP to Lake Ronkankamo and Patchogue where we had friends and almost bought a home in 1953. I'm told the Northern State still deadends where it did in '54, but the rest of the place has built up considerably. BTW, when the the Big Lie finished? I don't remember ever traversing it. Was it built after the mid-1950's?]
You heard correct about the Northern State. It comes to a suprisingly abrupt end at Route 454 in Hauppauge, close to the Suffolk County offices. It's certainly not the middle of nowhere anymore. Selden's not too far from where I am (Medford), and today's it's basically a fully developed area.
Dunno for sure when the LIE was completed, but I suspect it was in the early 1960's. Steve Anderson's site, www.nycroads.com, will have the information.
Actually, in 1954, the highway ended at Sagtikos/Sunken Meadow Parkways (it's the SA to the south and the SM to the north). In 1962, it was extended to it's current terminus at NY-454 in Hauppauge. The LIE was opened as the Queens-Midtown Expressway, and was a relatively short approach to the Queens-Midtown Tunnel. Both opened in 1940. Eventually, it was extended as the Horace Harding Expressway to the city line. When it crossed it in the early-mid 1950s, the whole thing became the Long Island Expressway.
The road was completed in stages, finally reaching Exit 73: NY-25 Middle Country Road in Riverhead (the seat of Suffolk County)in 1973.
Visit NYCRoads.com
Last time I was in NY they were building bus lanes on the LIE in Nassau and Suffolk county. How is that project coming?
HOV lanes, High occupancy Vehicles(two or more humans) about 60 % done,
most of the planned Suffolk part is done, cosmetics mostly. Nassua about 45% in service the rest under construction . These are just WAG of %.
avid
What we need and never had is a "Robert Moses" type person for transit. Someone or some entity that cuts across all the interagency garbage with a dedicated funding source that could fill in the gaps of the system. We all know what those gaps are. The problem will be what Moses's legacy left behind....NIMBY's. Moses rammed through so many harmful roadway projects through unsuspecting and totally unorganized neighborhoods, that his legacy is now the complete opposite. His legacy is not our crumbling roadways, but our "don't build that in my backyard, front yard, not on planet earth mentality". So many good projects are stopped by very few voices. Transit has always suffered from myths and half truths during the public outreach processes. "My house value will depreciate....they will come to rob my house...rape my daughter....wreak havoc on my car...,etc."
[What we need and never had is a "Robert Moses" type person for transit. Someone or some entity that cuts across all the interagency garbage with a dedicated funding source that could fill in the gaps
of the system.]
What is realy funny, actually it makes me cry, is that is what the MTA is supose to be ... better then a NYC entity (to remove the politics ... ha ha ha, more fingers in the soup now), with dedicated funding (well George realy did a number on that one) & do long range metropolitian area/region planning (well they do a lot of plans now don't they).
Mr t__:^)
Peter Rosa has already mentioned the specifics on suburbia being nationwide.
The fact that Europe is less suburbanized has to do with the fact that less Europeans moved towards car ownership following World War II. In the United States, the infrastructure was left intact while the powerful industrial machine used to support the war effort was now left to peacetime, leading to a period of prosperity and industrial expansion. In addition, American industry on all levels was working towards the support of the cold war, which was not spent on any actual battle and therefore left us in a world where everyone could own their own driving machine.
In Europe, in addition to the collapsed infrastructure, it was not the "Arsenal of Democracy" that the United States was. There was not such a level of industrial growth to support the war effort. Following the war, The "Marshall Plan" was to rebuild European cities with American Support, policy therefore dictated that the focus would be on the city center.
In the United States, nöone could predict the way certain cities would fall (look at Detroit), and the policies were just what the people wanted, the U.S. was doing the building itself.
Robert Moses is not solely responsible for the highway building, he was one person with extraordinary powers. Since projects still had to be approved by state and municipal governments, elected governments, this was the sentiment at the time. People supported Moses. If those East Tremontians had not succumbed to the Cross-Bronx Expressway, they would have been thankful for Moses, for giving them a highway (assume it would have been elsewhere) to move out from their small apartments and into the suburbs. The neighborhood would have declined as much. Robert Moses is merely a convenient scapegoat for the public policies of the entire United States during this period. Had he not existed, nor had the power of shaping the region's transportation infrastructure have been vested in one individual, the region would have looked much the same, except without horrible NIMBYism.
Robert Moses was chiefly responsible for ending the era of public works with the end of his reign.
As for housing construction, suburban buildings are durable. You may decry them as they do not involve steel or concrete, but they do not NEED it. The heavy duty stuff is for heavy duty buildings that have larger capacity. As for your thoughts of suburban architecture, they are your opinions and are no more valuable than those of any other (although I must say I agree with your assessment). City buildings can often look worse. The fact that malls are popular, even in the city, says that they are better than mom and pop stores. Why would anyone otherwise flock to them? With cars, they have a choice.
[The fact that Europe is less suburbanized has to do with the fact that less Europeans moved towards car ownership following World War II. In the United States, the infrastructure was left intact while the powerful industrial machine used to support the war effort was now left to peacetime, leading to a period of prosperity and industrial expansion. In addition, American industry on all levels was working towards the support of the cold war, which was not spent on any actual battle and therefore left us in a world where everyone could own their own driving machine.]
All quite true. In addition, most European countries (and Japan) have long been densely populated, meaning there wasn't a huge amount of vacant land surrounding most cities. Development therefore became squeezed into the city centers.
Actually, things might be changing at least some places in Europe, as cities start to experience US-style suburban sprawl. Space constraints mean that it probably will never be as extensive as here in the United States, but clearly the city-center focus may weaken considerably.
[If those East Tremontians had not succumbed to the Cross-Bronx Expressway, they would have been thankful for Moses, for giving them a highway (assume it would have been elsewhere) to move out from their small apartments and into the suburbs. The neighborhood would have declined as much.]
Witness all the 'hoods elsewhere in the city that declined even without highways in their midst. As far as East Tremont is concerned, I've noted before that there was much evidence of its decline even before the Cross-Bronx came through, and in any event the Expressway's physical destruction of the area was limited to a very narrow corridor.
[The fact that malls are popular, even in the city, says that they are
better than mom and pop stores. Why would anyone otherwise flock to them? With cars, they have a choice.]
Freedom of choice is no less worthy than freedom of speech or freedom of religion. Some urban planners and others of their ilk think that malls and superstores should be strictly limited in order to protect Main Street shopping. While I don't rejoice at the decline of Main Streets, I also believe that people have a right to shop where they choose. If they prefer malls and superstores, so be it. No urban planner has the right to stop them.
Robert Moses was responsible for two major changes in the history of New York City. One was the highway system that led out of New York City. The Depression and World War II arrested any attempt at suburbinizing the outskirts of the city, but the end of World War II saw GI's come by the millions and with the GI Bill and full employment were able to start leaving the city for homes on former potato fields on Long Island. Some moved north to Westchester, some near west to New Jersey, and some, like my family and others, lead frogged all the way to the West Coast to suburbs in the Golden State. This movement didn't start immediately but with Levittown's development by 1949 the move was well underway. By the mid 1950's this phenomenan led to the second Moses "contribution"----the fleeing of the Brooklyn Dodgers to California. Moses was all for highways and that suburbabized much of the white population of NYC, and with Brooklyn becoming more poppulated with immigrants from Puerto Rico and elsewhere, Walter O'Malley wanted a better stadium in a mnore choice location, and Moses wouldn't comply. So Moses leaves a mixed bag.
As much as I dislike much of Moses' legacy, I don't really think that he can be blamed for the Dodgers' choice to leave Brooklyn. The Dodgers wanted NYC to help them out, and NYC refused because it then thought that stadiums for privately owned teams were private, not public, matters. In many ways, the Dodgers' move was the vanguard of America's orgy with public financing of stadiums. Actually, in this case, NYC was probably (unwittingly) on the right side of an important policy debate. Unhappily, being right also meant that the Dodgers left town. But frankly, I think that teams should be allowed to leave if the price of keeping them is huge public subsidies.
There is no rationale basis to believe that localities get value for their money when they subsidize stadiums. It may work for smaller places that are trying to become "big league", but it makes no sense at all for NYC. In fact, museums draw more people in NYC than professional sports stadiums, and provide a far more lucrative tourist trade. I realize that sports teams are a highly emotional issue, but does that emotion really justify the coercive use of the taxing power to subsidize sports teams?
Absolutely not (even if I feel the Dodgers were traitors by leaving the place that loved them, win or lose). The money changing hands by management and players in pro sports is outrageous.How many years, if ever do most if not all our readers have to work to see what some of the high paid players make. Nuf said.
You make a very good point---even to a baseball fanatic like me. I also happen to be a teacher so your argument makes sense. I don't know how old you are but if you are close to my age (59) and I hope you're not, New York suffered a real bummer when the Giants and Dodgers left town after the 1957 season. My relatives in Brooklyn did not recover for years and if left a bad mark on the city. Fortunately, you got the Mets and Yankees, and a new generation hardly knows that the former New York teams played there. Still it is not in the best interests of a city when sports franchises pack up and leave because many people identify a city with a team and no better example of this was Brooklyn and the Dodgers. When Brooklyn was mentioned in any context until their departure, the Dodgers were always synonomous with the borough. But, then again, I admit, you made a good point.
I know that Brooklyn took it on the chin when the Dodgers left. And in retrospect it is certainly clear that it would have been much better to provide the relatively modest aid O'Malley was demanding. I am really responding to huge sums being discussed for a new Yankees stadium and maybe a new Mets stadium. Do you think that NYC would cease to be NYC if the yankees played in NJ (at the expense of the NJ taxpayer?)
The Dodgers were about in the same boat the Yankees were in a few years ago when they were whining about a new stadium. Brooklyn drew 1,250,000 fans in 1957 -- bad by current standards, but I believe it was the third or fourth best attendance in the National League that year, behind NL champion Milwaukee, St. Louis and (maybe) the Cubs. So it wasn't like O'Malley was in desperate shape with Ebetts Field. Horace Stonham and the Giants were really the ones hurting, they only drew about 650,000 their last year in New York, and were hemmed in by the perceptions about their surro
It was 1956 when the Dodgers drew 1,200plus thousand people; they were barely over a million in 1957, but your point is well taken. Ebbets Field was in a deteriorating area, the transportation was ok with the subway, but there was parking for only 700 cars. Moses offerd them Flushing Meadows in Queens but O'Malley said he couldn't call his team the Brooklyn Dodgers if it played in Queens. He wanted the site at Atlantic and Flatbush, where there were more subway lines, plus the LIRR. Moses said no and that was that. BTW, O"malley wanted the city to get him the land, he would build the stadium on his own.
When you look at the success of Madison Square Garden (forgetting, if you can, the asthetics of destroying Penn Station), O'Malley was on solid ground with his idea of building a baseball stadium over the LIRR depot. With so many Brooklynites moving out to Long Island in the 1950s, it would have given them a direct one- or two-seat connection back to the ballpark, while fans in the rest of the borough would have had access through the IRT, BMT and, if you were willing to walk a couple of blocks, the IND as well.
Of course, by now, they would have been arguing the stadium is old and outdated and they don't have enough luxury boxes to compete with the other big market teams. But chances are there would have already been an expansion team in L.A., so the best the O'Malleys (or Rupert Murdock and the Fox crowd) could have done is to ape Steinbrenner's recent threat about moving the team to New Jersey.
Jay: Well said. You're probably right, but wouldn't it have been great to see if that really would have taken place. I have never felt the way I felt for the Brooklyn Dodgers with their place now in Los Angeles. They're my home team but I don't root for them.
That's how I feel about the Rockies. I don't dislike them, and they've been great for Denver, but I've been a Mets fan for too long to switch allegiances now. And I have yet to set foot in Coors Field.
BTW, the honeymoon appears to be over between the fans and the team. While the Rockies have led the NL in attendance every year since their inception, it's been declining. You can actually get tickets on game day now, and not just in the Rockpile section.
Pitching in general is bad enough as it is but in Coors Field it's an impossible situation. Unless the Rockies can come up with pitchers who can pitch in Coors Field ( some can like Hideo Nomo) they are toast as far into the future as anyone can see. But what's wrong with our Mets? They sure are sucking wind so far.
The lack of parking at Ebbets Field was one of the reasons given by O'Malley for a new ballpark, plus the park itself had become outmoded.
Interestingly, Coors Field isn't surrounded by acres and acres of parking lots. Oh, there are parking facilities near the park, but it was intended to be accessed by foot on the premise that there was and is plenty of parking downtown. You can actually drive down Blake St. right past the ballpark.
Wow! This thread on Robert Moses is getting interesting.... I started it yesterday by mentioning what the transit industry really needs is a Robert Moses type of individual and so far we have had a discourse on the growth of surburbia, returning WW II vets, European urban planning, America's failure in urban planning, Boss Daley in Chicago and now why the Dodgers left brooklyn. This is great!
So to bring it back to transit....lets take a page from an old Robert Moses trick: Raise a couple of million dollars to build transit on the Old LIRR Rockaway line to JFK....turn some dirt, build some platforms and then say to the politicos that we already spent some $$$ and we can't go back on that now. Give us the rest of the money to finish the job. And Oh.... by the way ...we don't need to do an Environmental Impact Statement...we are exempt because we'll quit and then you will have no one to build projects and you will have no ribbons to cut and no projects to point to and say "look what I did for you".
Anyway...that's my fantasy....what's yours??
The Dodgers returning to Brooklyn. And that, my friends is fantasy. Even though I live in California and love the state, I have never really taken to the Los Angeles Dodgers.
Even if you were to buy them, then the Yankees of Mets could veto a move into Brooklyn with their territorial rights. Maybe if you threaten them with an Anti-trust suit. Would one work if the government bothered? Legal people have an answer?
Doesn't sound to me like you're a baseball fan, but New York at least now has two representative teams, one a world champion, the other, I would hope, a future one. Of course, it's been over 40 years since the Giants and the Dodgers packed up and left. That's almost two generations, and I remember ace sportswriter Dick Young of the NY Daily News once say that in time the Dodgers link with New York will have rusted. I doubt if you know a handful of people in New York who still root for the Dodgers, and probably none who root for the Giants.
Why does it not sound to you like I'm a baseball fan?
Even so, I am a BROOKLYN patriot first. The moving out of the Dodgers was a huge blow to local morale, and it's not like the city can't support three teams. The two that we have are too overpriced.
And of course, I oppose the use of tax dollars for stadia. If they want to be here, they should afford it. Besides, New Jersey is right across, it's still the same region and NOTHING would be lost.
With regard to an antitrust suit, the owner of the team who wanted to move into Brooklyn would be more likely to sue than the govt. As for the outcome, who knows? If true competitors divide up a market geographically, they enter into an agreement in restraint of trade in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act. Major league baseball teams are not clearly in competition with each other economically. In many ways, MLB is economically a single business, a joint venture or partnership of the various teams in which they agree to split the gate from performing publicly against each other for the audience's entertainment. The only thing certain about such a case is that the lawyers and "expert" witnesses would make out like bandits.
Baseball enjoys a peculiar status under federal anti-trust law due to a Supreme Court ruling many years ago (I think no more recently than the 1930's and maybe even the 1920's) that Baseball is not subject to the anti-trust statutes. The rationale at the time said that since Congress had not explicitly included baseball within the language of the statute, that it was not covered. This was at a time when Baseball was alone in its status as a big time sport, and may have been influenced by a desire of some judges to protect the sport.
In the intervening years, other major league sports have made it into the big time, and have been held to be subject to the anti-trust laws. So, Baseball hangs out there alone in its status due to this now-somewhat-anachronistic opinion.
The actual alleged reason why Baseball was exempted was exempted was because it was a "public exhibition" and not a business.
At the time, teams and entire leagues were being created and folding regularly, the average team drew 15,000 fans per game, and teams built their own stadium. Suspect then, the ruling is absurd now. If they could reverse Plessy Vs. Ferguson, they could reverse this.
mpkO: I can't figure out how you New Yorkers are so lacking in pride. You are willing to support a carpetbagging liberal hag from DC, or is is Arkansas, or is it Illinois? Then to top if off you lose the Giants and Jets to New Jersey and support them with your hard earned dough even though they are NOT New York teams anymore. Can't you get your own team that plays in NEW YORK? As far as the Yankees are concerned, that would be the last straw. There can be no New York Yankees anywhere but New York City. Any idea to the contrary is prepostrous. I never liked the team but they are the most storied franchise in sports and for New Yorkers to let the unthinkable happen and lose the Yankees----well New York wouldn't deserve to recover from that.
Why is it that you always make the broad generalization about NYers and that they support Hillary. I certainly don't, so why should I be generalized with them?
And as for the Yankees moving to New Jersey, assuming they actually do carry out the threat (FAT CHANCE), I'd rather they do move to New Jersey. Let those idiots west of the Hudson pay money to support what is already one of the largest money making businesses on Earth. I'd rather flush my money down the toilet than pay one cent of corporate welfare to that dumbass, Steinbrenner. Sure, I would have liked it if Brooklyn had the Dodgers, even though I never knew them (I heard of the Brooklyn Dodgers before I heard there was an LA Dodgers team). I like it much better that the city had not spent a dime. Corporate welfare means higher taxes already, and does that lower the highest ticket prices in the nation? Hardly.
Hillary is now ahead in the polls and New Yorkers have elected carpetbaggers before----RFK in 1964 and J. Buckley in 1970, so
you have that reputation. Though not a New Yorker for over 45 years, I still retain pride in the city of my birth, and feel that the city should set an example for the rest of this nation's other metropolises. To lose sports teams to other states is not the way to go. Now if you can convince a lot of your friends to vote against Hillary, my hat will be off to you. I don't generalize because I dislike New York, I do it because I still have a soft spot for it. A person is is ashamed of where his roots are is a zero in my book.
(Let those idiots west of the Hudson pay money to support what is already one of the largest money making businesses on Earth).
The idiots are east of the Hudson. No New Jersey politician has been willing to support public monye to build a stadium for the Yankees. They'll provide a site if George is willing to do it himself.
NJ also insisted that the Nets and Devils share an arena, rather than expecting New Jersey to build two. Would that NYC would use the same logic with the Mets and Yankees. The two of them together could certainly afford any kind of stadium they wanted.
The difference is that the Nets and Devils are from different sports and not rivals. It's sort of silly to have a combined stadium, especially when either of them alone can afford a domed stadium with retractable grass built in pylons in the deep sea with the world's longest and widest bridge connecting it to the mainland.
[The difference is that the Nets and Devils are from different sports and not rivals. It's sort of silly to have a combined stadium, especially when either of them alone can afford a domed stadium with retractable grass built in pylons in the deep sea with the world's longest and widest bridge connecting it to the mainland.]
Yeah. This isn't about what the teams can afford, but about the extent to which they can play local governments against one another to get subsidies for rich owners. It's a fairly obscene abuse of monopoly power by trusts; Congress should amend the antitrust law to remove the exemptions for professional sports.
There are exemptions for professional sports?
How horrid!
[There are exemptions for professional sports?
How horrid!]
For baseball, anyway. It made sense in the days when players were chosen by draft and teams paid for their own stadiums.
[All quite true. In addition, most European countries (and Japan) have long been densely populated, meaning there wasn't a huge amount of vacant land surrounding most cities. Development therefore became squeezed into the city centers.
Actually, things might be changing at least some places in Europe, as cities start to experience US-style suburban sprawl. Space constraints mean that it probably will never be as extensive as here in the United States, but clearly the city-center focus may weaken considerably.]
OTOH, Europe didn't desert its cities the way we did. The thought that a City resident should pay higher taxes to support the poor person who lives next to him would never occur to a European. They may not like poor immigrants and the problems they cause, but they consider social welfare a national responsibility.
Frankly, if I look at the people I know, I see no great rush to move to or from suburbia. I've seen people move out of the City, and I've seen people move into it. Some people I know are into lawns, yes, but at least as many who find the suburbs stultifying and boring and would gladly trade it for the action. It's a matter of personal preference and tradeoffs. The people who fled NYC and other cities in great numbers during the 70's were fleeing lousy schools and services, crime and skellums, and onerous taxes, not trading one lifestyle for another. The fact that the City is now a mixture of the very rich--who can afford the high taxes and private schools for their children--and the very poor is to me a fair indication that white flight was not primarily a desire for a different lifestyle, but unlivability for the middle class. After all, the rich can live anywhere they want, including the nicest of suburbs, but many choose to live in Manhattan. Even the Queen returns to London, however relucantly, from her summer estate.
And this is a surprise to you because...?
The project has been pretty much classified a boondoggle since the very beginning...
-Dave
This (JFK AirTrain) has got to be the favorite whipping boy of this chat room! How come we all see it so clearly and others think this will be the greatest thing since the 8th Avenue line was built? As someone earlier so elegantly put it before.... Duh! Lets get the Rockaway Branch reactivated...
Being out of town, I have followed this only through the opaque lens of the little the New York Times has published on the topic. I had formed the (erroneous) idea that the system was going to be discrete from the Subway, but compatible. I specifically recall Mayor Giuliani demanding that Airtrain be compatible. Obviously, he did not get his way. This just shows how the dispersion of authority in NY often leads to bad policy. Don't we wish the the IRT and the BMT had been required to adopt compatible standards? It almost makes one wish for a modern Robert Moses.
Robert Moses caused the current problems when building major public works.
How you ask? All of that NIMBYism and general failure to get a good project going is a reaction to Moses's strong arm tactics. In the future, people will get fed up with the city's failure to get something done and swing the pendulum the other way.
You might also say that Moses ruined transit by not supporting it, but that isn't exactly true. If the building had continued to this day, then the focus would be shifted towards transit anyway.
It was not just Moses that was anti-transit, it was America.
[Robert Moses caused the current problems when building major public works.
How you ask? All of that NIMBYism and general failure to get a good project going is a reaction to Moses's strong arm tactics. In the future, people will get fed up with the city's failure to get something done and swing the pendulum the other way.
You might also say that Moses ruined transit by not supporting it, but that isn't exactly true. If the building had continued to this day, then the focus would be shifted towards transit anyway.
It was not just Moses that was anti-transit, it was America.]
An unusually fair assessment.
[I see. Well then the entire project really seems very misconceived. No chance of ever being able to incorporate it within the larger system. What an awful piece of public policy!!]
It's the pits. The City and RPA had to fight the Port Authority to get what little we have, which is form factor and power compatibility--the PA wanted to build a completely incompatible people mover. At least that means that Airtrain may someday link to the LIRR and subway; it can still be connected via the Rockaway Line, or lightweight vehicles could travel via Jamaica.
A) Where the Airtrain meets the MTA at Howard Beach , the Air train is Heading SOUTH towards Rockaway Beach, Not North towards the city. Good planning by the PA to kill possible joint use.
B) The curves and grades on the current Airtrain ROW would rule out the use of R/44, R/46, R/68 type cars.
They the PA pulled the wool over the eyes of our elected officials to get their foot in the door, they'll ask to proceed with more routs.
We need " heypaul for Regional Transit CZAR".
avid
avid... although i could use the money, i am a non smoker and will not allow my name to be used to promote cigar smoking...
If I remember correctly...Robert Moses brothers name was Paul... Maybe you are the reincarnated Moses. YES!!! thats it! HeyPaul for Transit Czar!!!
hill billy ray... i do not believe in life after death... i have come to that sad conclusion because i haven't experienced any life before death...
Cigar Smoking at board meetings is no longer required, Nicaderm has a new product line. Nico-suppositories, they come in three strengths and can be used as earplugs when on the "REDBIRDS" a major breakthrough in the Medico/transit self engrandizement industry. Samples will be dispensed at an IRON maiden near you. Beware of attendants standing by (with cameras). They conform to the no smoking policy of the ta. (sic)
avid
[Where the Airtrain meets the MTA at Howard Beach , the Air train is Heading SOUTH towards Rockaway Beach, Not North towards the city. Good planning by the PA to kill possible joint use.]
Astounding.
It gets better, when the air train get to Jamacia, it will turn EAST , away from the city , to reach Jamaica RR station. It seems it always shys away from a logical direction to serve the city.
Is there a hidden message here? The PA seems to act like a reluctant teenager. They comply, but so poorly to be useless or expensive.
avid
It seems remenisant of August Belmont and the Steinway tunnel, fit only for div A cars.
avid
[It gets better, when the air train get to Jamacia, it will turn EAST , away from the city , to reach Jamaica RR station. It seems it always shys away from a logical direction to serve the city.
Is there a hidden message here? The PA seems to act like a reluctant teenager. They comply, but so poorly to be useless or expensive.]
Government's management of transit in general is fairly sickening; it chills me to think that it's probably just as political and useless with everything else it's responsible for!
I thought subway trains couldn't operate over the line because of the curves on the line within the terminal area. Is the structural strength of the guideway a problem too??
[I thought subway trains couldn't operate over the line because of the curves on the line within the terminal area. Is the structural strength of the guideway a problem too??]
The Airtrain cars are 60', so while it won't take 75 footers it should take the 60's.
For all the talk about direct subway service, though, I'm not sure if it makes sense. The subway will basically be used by airport employees and others with little baggage. Since not all lines could head into JFK, eadways will actually be shorter if people transfer to the Airtrain from the many lines that go to Jamaica or Howard Beach. The problem there is that the PA wants to charge $5, which is more than those people are willing to spend. Instead, they'll keep taking the bus.
Where we need direct access is for the one seat rides to the business districts, and those would travel wholly or partly along the LIRR. There's no reason an Airtrain-type vehicle couldn't travel on the LIRR if it could be made strong enough to meet FRA specs.
Aren't airtrain vehicles narrow guage? I passed by the construction and the tracks look to be 2.5' wide. I don't think they can run on LIRR or subway tracks. $5 is too much for the new tram. I pay $20 (just $13.50 more then the A/Airtrain combo) for cab service from Manhatten and they get me to JFK on a one-seat ride, and they pick me up at my door. No hassels!
-Daniel
[Aren't airtrain vehicles narrow guage? I passed by the construction and the tracks look to be 2.5' wide. I don't think they can run on LIRR or subway tracks. $5 is too much for the new tram. I pay $20 (just $13.50 more then the A/Airtrain combo) for cab service from Manhatten and they get me to JFK on a one-seat ride, and they pick me up at my door. No hassels!]
No, Airrain vehicles are standard guage and the cars are 10' wide, thanks to lobbying by the City and RPA.
I agree about the cab business. Nobody will take Airtrain without that one seat wide. The original idea was that the train station in NYC would become an "extension of the Airport"--you'd take a cab to Farley, say, check your bags and get your boarding pass, get on the Airtrain and zip to the terminal. That would work, and be well worth $5. Asking people to take the LIRR and lug their bags around won't. Too complicated, too many variables, too much work.
Josh, I'm paying less than $10 to get a bus from GCT. I know the uncertinty of how long it's going to take at the terminal, so I'll be there long before required. 1h here or there, what does it matter.
Actually I've usually taken the A train.
Arrti
BART runs exclusively on center-column concrete "els" in San Francisco. Are NYC subway cars that much heavier?
Dave
Yesterday when coming home from the Coney Is Aquarium with my little guy (3 1/2 yr old Arthur) we just made the 6:04 out of Flatbush. We were going to Mineola where the 'ol 85 Buick was parked. Changing at Jamaica we had the choice of a packed Ronkonkoma train or an empty OB tri-level. Since Arthur always begs me to take the upstairs-downstairs train as he calls it, we too the OB train of course. When it came I noticed there was an engine on both ends, suggesting dual mode. When we got to Mineola the train was still in the station when we crossed over to the other side and I definitely noticed third rail shoes on the rear loco. (didn't see the front loco, I assume it also had shoes) I was wondering what dual modes were doing on the OB line on Sunday night. I assume they were bringing 'em out to Oyster Bay to store overnight for Monday's rush hour. By the way, they were definitely using diesel as both locomotives were loud as anything.
The third rail pickup is for when the train is run into Penn Station.
this is an update of the famous FL-9 locomotive of New Haven Railroad lineage, although now this is run on the LIRR. I wonder what will be used if and when the link between Penn Station and GCT is ever built. The third rail types are different, so which would be used, or would the equipment have pickups for both types?
The LIRR link into Grand Central will be on seperate tracks, so there will be no third rail problems.
Also the new double decker (C-3) equipment won't fit through the 63 street tunnel, so they won't be going there.
-- Kirk
They probably won't be in service, anyway, by the time the GCT connection is finished. How far out of spec are they for the 63rd St. tunnel?
They use the DM30's whenever they want to. because they have third rail shoes does not disqualify them from service on weekends. I seen the dual modes in Bridgehampton on off-peak trains.
They use the DM30's whenever they want to. because they have third rail shoes does not disqualify them from service on weekends. I seen the dual modes in Bridgehampton on off-peak trains.
According to NY1 and Larry Rueter the R-142 testing is going along very well and both trains should begin revenue testing by mid-June. Rueter says the testing of the cars "have exceeded Expectations"
ny1 website
On a sadder note it seems someone died this morning while riding on top of a #7 train at Grand Central
Peace,
ANDEE
> On a sadder note it seems someone died this morning while
> riding on top of a #7 train at Grand Central
Hope he got himself out of the gene pool before he had time to muddy the waters...
-dave
Yea, I hear you
Peace,
ANDEE
BTW, just so everyone understands. My handle in no way supports the practice of "surfing". I have had this handle for 6 years. It was made up from the fact that I love the "subway" and I "surf" the internet. I knew nothing of this pratice when I made up this name.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ewwwww! That means they were mushed against the Steinway Tunnel roof! What a gruesome way to die...
wayne
Your "Ewwww!" reminds me of a female radio personality we have here in Denver. She doubles between an FM rock station and an AM sports talk show, and on the latter, she once said "Ewwww!" in response to something someone said. Since everything is recorded, that bit was dubbed and stored, and can now be cued up anytime (along with the good old rim shot). It's not uncommon to hear both at the appropriate moment.
I feel sorry for the tunnel and the people responsible for keeping it clean.
That's it.
Let's see, here's a line where the tunnel clearances are so tight that they had to modify the R-62s to get them to fit through, and someone tries to subway surf on top of a Redbird? Not very bright, but I'm sure if this little epidemic keeps up, we'll be seeing our first `surfing fatality' lawsuit against the MTA filed any day now.
[ I'm sure if this little epidemic keeps up, we'll be seeing our first `surfing fatality' lawsuit against the MTA filed any day now. ]
I'm sure that will happen. I think anyone stupid enough to ride on the roof of a train should by law not be allowed to file lawsuits!
Unfortunatley, it probably won't be the surfer himself filing.
YEEEE HAWWWWWW!! Yes, I knew the R142s wouldn't fail us!!!!!!!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
YEAH!!! At last! I can't believe it's finally gonna happen. I'm finally gonna get to ride new cars on my line. I never thought this day would come. Amen!
I was told By the TSS on the R142 school car June 1st is the date that is being pushed.
That's great! I can't wait to see what it's like to ride them!
Too bad they don't have forward-facing seats like the R-110's had, though.
There's an article in today's Daily News about the R-142's (on page 8). Click here to view it.
Cool!!! I can't wait. Time really flies, because sometimes it seems like yesterday that the (then) new R-62 were showing up on the #4.
Wayne
SUBWAYSURF:
Let's hope that their won't be any major problems with the R-142s when they enter service. I don't want to see a repeat of the fiasco like the one involving the R-44s and the R-46s.
BMTJeff
As I was riding a northbound "B" train into 145th Street today the strangest thing happened. When we got to the the last stop the "B" train I was on was wrong railed onto the downtown local track of 145th St. There was another "B" train siting in its usual spot in the center track (north motor #5020). We were instructed to walk through the train in the center track to transfer to the "D". Funny thing was that the "B" train in the center track appeared to be in service as ther were passengers on it. No attempt was made by any TA employee to inform the passengers on the "B" train in the center track that the train that was wrong railed would be leaving first. It did not appear that there was any problem with the train in the center track. The train I was on was turned around quicker than anything I've ever seen.
Less than 90 seconds. (sorry i did not get car number, but it had a black floor).
Any thoughts? This all happened at around 1:05PM.
Peace,
ANDEE
Tons of fast turnarounds occurred at 21st when the shuttles ran every 20 minutes on weekdays back in 97.
And also happens on the #7 during the morning rush at Main St. Express trains once they come in from Shea, they get shipped right out in about 2 minutes because of all the people bussed in from Bayside, College Point, etc... and Flushing who all start their journey at Main St.
Yes, but I was more interested in why this N/B "B" train would be wrong-railed onto the downtown local track at 145th. A highly unusual move.
Peace,
ANDEE
I guess it would be in preparation for the fast turnaround.
andee--- do you take that train regularly?... i don't like to bother people with questions, but if you're on it again ask the train operator... or check with the tower at 145th, assuming there is still a tower... i just thought of a reason... maybe the b on the center track was having problems, and they wanted to get service moving downtown... unfortunately that idea is unlikely, since they left the people on that b stay on the train... it seemed from your description, that it was a planned move, as they had the b in the station with doors open on both sides... in your years of riding, you've never seen that move?... perhaps they were just trying to mess with your head, under orders from the uptown shops...
Yes, Paul, I do take it regularly. Have not ever seen the move before.
Your theory is interesting.
Peace,
ANDEE
If any one is interested...
Published in the Asbury Park Press 5/15/00
By JOHN A. HARNES
COASTAL MONMOUTH BUREAU
FREEHOLD -- The Monmouth County Board of Freeholders has called on NJ Transit to use $2 million in existing funds to conduct an environmental impact statement for the proposed $300 Monmouth-Ocean-Middlesex passenger rail line.
A resolution passed last week states that the rail project "must be advanced immediately because further delays will result in more encroachments adjacent to the line, making the implementation of this new passenger rail service more difficult and costly."
The freeholders said the rail line is critically needed to relieve traffic congestion along the Route 9 corridor and provide a transportation alternative for commuters.
Earlier this week, the rail line -- designed to link western Monmouth and Ocean counties to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor -- picked up momentum when the Assembly Transportation Committee recommended it for federal funding.
The plan calls for passenger trains to run over existing freight tracks now used by Conrail. This new passenger rail line would link Lakehurst to a station to be built at Monmouth Junction on the Northeast Corridor line in South Brunswick.
Jim Redeker, assistant executive director of planning for NJ Transit, has said other lines were considered when the plan was conceived in the mid-1980s. However, the federal government, which will fund the bulk of the project, determined the three-county route was the most economically feasible.
The freeholders said that almost $8 million had been originally earmarked for studies and preliminary engineering for this project. The remaining balance of more than $2 million should now be used by NJ Transit to proceed with an environmental impact statement, the freeholders said.
The environmental statement is necessary before the passenger rail project can advance.
John A. Harnes: (732) 922-6000, ext. 4316
Published on May 15, 2000
Just finished a tour of the alignment last week. Lots of challenges...especially at monmouth junction at the NE Corridor Line. Significant tunneling will be required to make the connection work. I'm sure new homes constructed near the junction will be up in arms. Middlesex County still firmly opposed to project. South Brunswick hates it...Too Bad....NIMBY's rule the day yet again.
Right. I live in Eatontown when I'm not down home in North Carolina so I've been following this for some time. Conrail is also opposed to the project and has said they will not permit NJT to operate passenger trains on that line, but NJT still persists. The more intelligent solution would be to look at reactivating the old ROW through Freehold, but the bike path people don't like that idea.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What more proof could we ask for that NJ politics and NY politics are different? Middlesex, Conrail, and the NIMBYs are all screaming; and the project continues forward anyway. Picture that in NY, if you can.
The NIMBYs screamed against the light rail in Burlington and Gloucester counties, too. They prevailed in Gloucester County, but ground was broken last week for the Trenton to Camden line through Burlington County.
Bob
I think the NIMBYs will prevail here too, if only because both Conrail and (I hate to admit it) common sense are on their side. The route selected is far from the best choice for the commuters or the taxpayers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about extending the Jersey Coast Line further south, at least to Atlantic City?
I agree that there should be some sort of NJT access to Atlantic City from Northern New Jersey or, even better, from NYC. I'm surprised that NJT hasn't considered this in all the years that Atlantic City has had
gambling. Right now, the only way to get to Atlantic City by rail is
via Philadelphia. The Monmouth County extension is a good start for
a possible Atlantic City link. At least the direction is towards the
south. Extending the Jersey Coast Line via Toms River would be a
good alternative.
Do you have anything to do with the GEICO commercials? They sound like something you would make up.
wmatagmoach (whatever the hell that is supposed to stand for) asked if i had anything to do with the geico commercials... although the question has nothing to do with the stated purpose of this message board, i will answer it here because it involves heypaul, which is the only subject that i am really concerned about...
i haven't seen the geico commercials...
are they that innovative and brilliant?
or are they just asinine?
WMATAGMOAGH stands for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority General Manager and then my initals.
Is GEIGO not in your area? I was talking about the radio ads which have comments like the ones you post.
geico is big in new york... i haven't heard their ads on the radio...
That should be "whatsamatta", as in Whatsamatta U., if you're familiar with Rocky and Bullwinkle.
I cannot for the life of me figure out why they are building a new right of way for the JFK rail link, when there is an existing, weed covered right of way paralleling Woodhaven Blvd. in Queens from the LIRR main line to the NYC subway Rockaway line. Money would be saved just by using this land instead of letting it sit and rot away. What gives? Didn't our politicians think about this, since they would like to or at least claim to like to save money?
<sit and rot away. What gives? Didn't our politicians think about this, since they
would like to or at least claim to like to save money? >>
Politics 101 the purpose of government is to redistibute money from the productive working classes to the bribing class through extortionate taxation and the "bidding" process. Oh yes, and the PA doesn't own the ex LIRR ROW but they do own JFK. Cooperation between competing fiefdoms?--surely you jest!
If the PA doesn't own the ex LIRR ROW, then who does, LIRR? Oh please! That IS a waste of money like the "Doc" says.
[If the PA doesn't own the ex LIRR ROW, then who does, LIRR?]
The city.
You would think that someone would want to get a long stretch of unused, weed covered land into productive use. The government is full of termite food. That is dead wood for all of you who want it in plain talk.
[I cannot for the life of me figure out why they are building a new right of way for the JFK rail link, when there is an existing, weed covered right of way paralleling Woodhaven Blvd. in Queens from the LIRR main line to the NYC subway Rockaway line. Money would be saved just by using this land instead of letting it sit and rot away. What gives? Didn't our politicians think about this, since they would like to or at least claim to like to save money?]
This comes up at least once a day--and everybody here agrees with you.
The LIRR Rockaway Line ROW has development on some of it (see previous post regarding a tour on the line earlier in the year).
But most of it has trees growing through the ROW and the ties, roadbed, etc. are so far rotted that a rebuild of the entire line would be in order, and that would certainly NOT be cost effective. If the line wasn't overgrown and dilapidated, it could have been rehabilitated some years ago for JFK Express service.
LIRR missed an opportunity years ago.
Doug aka BMTman
05/17/2000
[But most of it has trees growing through the ROW and the ties, roadbed, etc. are so far rotted that a rebuild of the entire line would be in order, and that would certainly NOT be cost effective. If the line wasn't overgrown and dilapidated, it could have been rehabilitated some years ago for JFK Express service.]
I really don't agree with you on this. Those trees can be cut down, new concrete ties and rails can be installed. Possibly some of the overpasses would have to be replaced with new ones since of inactivity and no maintainence over thr years. No way in hell could the old tracks and roadbed be reused.
The point here is "cost effective" doesn't really apply here. Monies for any rail projects for reviving abandoned ROW's have always been spent almost to the max! If you're going to do this, you might as well do it right. I can imagine the LIRR Rockaway ROW with concrete ties and welded rails. But unfortunatly we all have to imagine since this ROW is crying out "use me!". As far as the encroachments onto the ROW is concerned, was this done leaglly? Did the city sell or lease the ROW? If not all those cars parked on it would be evicted big time!
Bill "Newkirk"
Those trees are so embedded over there that merely cutting them down would not suffice. You have to go in and get them at their roots, otherwise they'll just grow back. There' alot of work involved in reclaiming the ROW.
Doug aka BMTman
Rebuilding on an abandoned right-of-way is far cheaper thann building a new right-of-way. (Do you think it is easy building something in the middle of the Van Wyck Expressway where you have to go over the cross streets.) You would not have used the old track anyway since you would need noise abatement treatment for a modern line.
Basically, power equipment would clear the right-of-way and then new roadbed and track added. Most bridges could be rehabilitated.
05/17/2000
[Those trees are so embedded over there that merely cutting them down would not suffice]
I see your point in a way. But deep rooted trees are no problem with today's advanced equipment. How about over a hundred years ago when the first railroads were built and trees were in the way. They didn't have the advanced construction equipment they have today.
Bill "Newkirk"
[I see your point in a way. But deep rooted trees are no problem with today's advanced equipment. How about over a hundred years ago when the first railroads were built and trees were in the way. They didn't have the advanced construction equipment they have today.]
They had to use poles with beavers tied to them
05/18/2000
[They had to use poles with beavers tied to them ]
Well if thre beavers refused to work they could have always hired termites who usually work for sawdust!
Bill "Newkirk"
[Well if thre beavers refused to work they could have always hired termites who usually work for sawdust!]
Uh, not in New York. The termites would join the union and demand $35 per hour plus overtime.
[Uh, not in New York. The termites would join the union and demand $35 per hour plus overtime.]
NIMBY's would complain about the noise from the gnawing, environmentalists would complain that they were eating trees, the MTA would ignore the fact that they only took a nibble or two every five weeks, and the politicians would send 90% of them to devour a stray twig in Long Island.
[Well if thre beavers refused to work they could have always hired termites who usually work for sawdust!]
They did that in New Orleans, and now look at the trouble they're in . . .
I'm getting a kick out of all these dreaming, wishful thinking threads about reviving the LIRR's Rockaway Line.IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!
If there was ANY plans of using it to go to JFK they never would have abandoned it in the first place. And they certainly wouldn't have started Airtrain!!!! So let those people extend their yards onto it. Its making it better!!! For trains to JFK you have 2 choices:AirtrainImproving the 'ol Train To The Plane over the 'ol "A" Train and making it more user friendly.Me, if I have to go to the airport (which is VERY infrequently) I'll just drive or take a cab.
Good point!
I don't disagree -- I didn't start this thread. Just wanted to add my two-cents of an opinion on the conditions of the ROW.
It would be a pipe-dream for ANYONE to attempt to resurrect the Rockaway line.
Doug aka BMTman
Stranger things have happened. E.g., the recent revival (talk about raising the dead!!) of the plan to have PATH extended to EWR. Who'ld have thunk?
[Stranger things have happened. E.g., the recent revival (talk about raising the dead!!) of the plan to have PATH extended to EWR. Who'ld have thunk?]
Do I detect some intrastate competition, i.e., JFK's gonna have a ride so we'd better have one too? If so, it's definitely for the best. In fact it strikes me as an argument for doing away with the Port Authority. If NY and NJ dealt with their own airports, docks, etc., they might devote some energy to outdoing one another. If only this were business and not government, because local governments tend to go to war with idiocies like stadium subsidies.
Actually, it's quite the contrary. From what I've read, it's part of a package deal connected to George and Christy burying the hatchet. The Penn Station expansion, water port work, and a bunch of other stuff is also included, IIRC.
05/17/2000
[Improving the 'ol Train To The Plane over the 'ol "A" Train and making it more user friendly.]
Nice try Jeff but as you said, AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN !!
The ol' Train To The Plane" didn't have the great ridership because of the somewhat slow route and bus connection making it "THE TRAIN TO THE BUS TO THE PLANE".
However, the JFK Express was a boon to some Rockaways people who paid the premium fare making it a "commuter" type super express.
Bill "Newkirk"
[If there was ANY plans of using it to go to JFK they never would have abandoned it in the first place. ]
There are other ROW-s abandoned and then resurected. Prove your point, please.
Arti
"If there was ANY plans of using it to go to JFK they never would have abandoned it in the first place."
While I agree with what you wrote before that (it ain't gonna happen). At the time transit was not en vogue and the powers that be did not feel that transit to the airport was justified. Things change.
With the Van Wyck Airtrain ROW, there's already a way to get to the airport, it CAN be used for a one seat ride in the future.
.........since I am going to give this metrolink system a try soon just thought I would ask !!
especially if you ride it often !!
,,,,,,,,,any metrolink commuters out there ??
Does anyone know how often CP Rail runs down to the Fresh Pond yard from the Husdon rail link over the Hellgate Bridge? I would be cool to see Cp Rail in operation in Queens. Who owns the Hudson rail link anyway? CSX?
-Daniel
The Lower Montauk has an almost daily train in the afternoon heading west, so I'd imagine the Hell gate route would also be used daily. Just a guess, though.
CSX sends a train over once a day. Loads in, empties and trash out shipping. On Thursdays P&W sends over 40 or so TILCON cars of Connecticuit blue stone. CP comes sporadically but most often late in the week on Fridays. Two Geeps are common.
Transit proffessional??? You got the CSX part right, but PW comes in to Pond Thurs. nite, and Mon nite. CP comes down 4 or sometimes 5 days a week, with two SD40's not geeps.
P&W on Thursday. That's what I said. The crews usual move
is to spend the night at a company paid for hotel, as they
can't make it back home within the FRA 12 hours.
As for CP Rail, EMD is what I meant by Geep, only their
locomotives are refered to as geeps. Four or six axles is
irrelevant to those of us within the industry (unless you
want to nit pick). The locomotives used by P&W are
generally GE's although they occasionaly send a Geep down
as well. I was trying to make a quick statement, so
please don't be so judgemental.
"Professional"? I don't feel like listing my resume, but
many of the regulars here can vouch for my qualifications.
The NY&A Rwy. I was among the first group of Locomotive
Engineers they hired, and I worked every run they have
before I left to come to the Transit Authority.
I never understood the need for railfans to constantly
correct one another in a game of one upsmanship. It's
almost like they need to prove their superiority to themselves by the possesion of trivial information. So what? Does it get you a job or promotion? It never helped me any.
[I never understood the need for railfans to constantly correct one another in a game of one upsmanship. It's almost like they need to prove their superiority to themselves by the possesion of trivial information. So what? Does it get you a job or promotion? It never helped me any.]
One-upsmanship of this sort appears to be endemic to online discussions in general. In other words, it isn't particular to railfans. Just go to any Usenet newsgroup, the topic doesn't matter, and see what happens when someone posts something that's even very slightly incorrect. The nitpickers descend like flies on [deleted], just to show that they know better.
One Upsmanship is akin to find a place for a puzzle peice and then hammering it into place with a three pound sledge. It does nothing
does the name Gorka ring a bell?
avid
Yeah it does! If this is who I'm thinking, E Mail me man.
You're only lashing out because you were the one to be proven wrong. Would you rather the wrong information stand as the truth?
[Peter said ... One-upsmanship of this sort appears to be endemic to online discussions in general ... even very slightly incorrect. The nitpickers descend like flies ... just to show that they know better.]
Some of us are asking questions because we're still learing, but you can usually tell who's nitpicking & who's trying to understand better.
For example: I thought a Geep was a GP-###, i.e. General Purpose vs. EMD SD-###. So are you saying everything in freight service or looking like a GP or SD mfg after the "Covered Wagons" put out by any mfg. is a Geeps ? I thought GEs were "U-boats".
BTW, Do you call the R-16 a Red Bird ?
Mr t__:^)
I work on the NY&A crew who first deliverd the first batch of R142's to the TA. The R-142 cars were pulled of off 90ft flats which came from Bombardier via CP rail. I remember that we dragged the first 5 car set down the Bay Ridge branch with NY&A GP38 270 to the TA's Linden yards in ENY. We had to use a compromise coupler between the 38 and the R-142 coupler. Let me tell ya those R-142s' looked pathetically small coupleb to the GP38. I could almost step out of my GP cab and walk onto the R-142 roof. These cars are tiny. The interior of these cars were white, seats, ceiling, the works. I hope that was only just prototype seating. Those seats will be destroyed when those R-142's will be in service for a while. I wonder how they will be kept "milk white" as the first batch came equipped with. More of those cars are on the way soon. This time I will try to post some #'s of the cars delivered. Hey one day you will say that, that car was towed by a GP38. See ya next time!!! SLAYER.
Do you know the delivery dates for the new R142?
The white is most likely plastic wrap, which protects the surfaces while in transit. New cars (autos) are delivered like this, too.
-Hank
..........thats how styrofoam products are delivered ...!!!
When the order will go full swing, the NY&A will have a dedicated job just to unload the subway cars, and deliver them to the TA. This roughly translates to about 15 to 20 cars per week. It takes about an hour just to pull the R142 of the flat and then have the Bombardier mechanical forces install the drawbars and couplings between the cars. When all cars are coupled and inspected, they are wheeled to the TA in 5 car sets. Usually between 3 and 5PM the cars run to Linden yard.
I saw on Saturday a 'Pretender' epsidode which involved a bomb on the DC metro in car 7677. Toward the end there was a scene on that car, which looked nothing like a DC subway car, but seemed familiar (LA?) (by the way, the explosion scenes were taken from 'End of Days' - recognized blue-silver R30s). Today, I saw a coke commercial with a kid riding none other than the exact same car, number 7677. The DC metro map wasn't there anymore, but it was obviously the same car.
I saw that "Pretender" episode, and while the train had WMATA-style "M" signs on the outside, and Metrorail maps on the inside (at least SOME attention to detail) I distinctly saw an overhead ad for (New York) MTA's bright gold Metrocard in one scene as they were walking or running through the cars! I didn't realize there would be a market for New York subway passes in Washington. :^)
Speaking of walking through the cars, they distinctly crossed between cars in the episode, which you cannot do on a normal WMATA train. Also, IIRC, there was no deadman feature on the train: the brainwashed bomber (I forget the character's name) walked away from the motorman's booth to confront Jarod, but the train kept going.
Needless to say, there is no Freedom station on WMATA. Although, on the other hand, that would be a great name for a station. Considering the jokes people make about train and station names,* you'd hear a lot of people saying that they're taking the train to "Freedom" at the end of the workday.
*You know what I mean. In the vein of potty humor, Flushing gets some laughs, as do the 1 and 2 trains and any potential P train. My favorite station name: Great Kills. Fits every bad image of New York City that out-of-towners have to show them a photo of a big station sign marked "GREAT KILLS". :^) And yes, I know that "kill" in Dutch doesn't mean the same as "kill" in English. It's still funny.
Flushing is funny, all right. What can you say about a baseball team that plays its games there? The Mets have certainly done their share of Flushing seasons down the crapper in the past.
Bob Hope even made a joke once about a Tidy Bowl game being played in Flushing. Yuk-yuk-yuk.
I was riding R-44 #466 and the door chime was reversed, with the low chime first. I also saw R-46 #6182 was missing the two seats right near the cab, and a pole was taken out. The car was in the middle of an E train. By the way, that E was followed immediately by another R-46 E train.
Car #6182 (if I remember correctly) began its life as car #630. Car #630, when overhauled, was deliberately delivered with that space open. That car was the prototype for the 'Handicap mod'. The space was intended to be available at all times for a wheel chair. The conductor was supposed to have a small ramp in his cab which he would be required to deploy when needed. Hence car #630 was intended to only be used in a conductor's position. It's the only R-46 with handicap emblems on the outside.
Do the R142 series and forthcoming R143 have bridge plates (like you said 6182 did)? or would customer using a wheelchair need assistance of another person
The bridge was never installed in the car. it was only a proposal...
#466 - Is that a Staten Island R44? or perhaps #5466?
Wayne
Staten Island - I should have specified.
I rode that car and stood in the "hole" It was bizarre
Boston took four seats out of each LRV in order to put blue handicap stickers on the side of each car, despite the fact that I could find only one ramp on the system at the time! I suppose they have more now, and I suppose if they hadn't done something, they're federal funding would have been cut off. And on those afternoon trips up Commonwealth ave, you definitely needed the extra standee space.
(RANT/DIGRESSION)
Since the B line was free outbound on the surface, a bzillion students piled on every afternoon, severely slowing service down. I always thought that BU should buy their own LRV's for the MBTA and run them from Blandford street up comm ave to Chestnut Hill ave or Washington street. Students could get on free with ID, and "civilians" would pay a normal fare. BU did have charter service set up with Crystal Transport, running transit liners, but it was woefully inadequate.
there, I'm done.
What NYC needs is the connection the DC MetroRail provides at Reagan National Airport. That is the best connection in the country. It takes no more than 5 minutes to make it from the train to the plane if you already have your ticket and don't need to check bags. NYC doesn't have the best subway until it has that. I like the idea of the light rail. JFK is an important airport with no rail service.
Atlanta has the exact same thing at hartsfield. so DC doesn't have the best connection, it's equal (but never better) to atlanta's.
I beg to differ... I've never been to Reagan Airport in DC, so I can't comment on that, but I found the MARTA connection at Hartsfield rather combersome because of the long walking distances involved. However, I think this is more the result of Hartsfield's atrocious terminal layout as opposed to the placement of the MARTA station; it looks like the MARTA station was located as close to the terminal as possible.
All personal bias aside, I have to say that O'Hare in Chicago has the best airport / rapid transit connection I've ever seen. Get off the train, go up the escalator and you're within a short walk of all three domestic terminals and the airport people-mover system. Short of having a direct transfer between the trains and the aircraft itself, you can't get a much better connection than that.
Midway Airport also has a direct CTA connection, but the walking distance is a bit longer.
I agree that New York should take heed... It continues to baffle me that neither LaGuardia nor JFK have a direct connection to rapid transit; this is something that even many lesser cities simply take for granted. Get with it, NYC!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hong Kong opened its new route in 1998. I rode the MTR Airport Express from the new airport through new tunnels and a new bridge to downtown Hong Kong in 20 minutes. The station was built right into the new airport and is just yards away from the main check-in area. The train which was smooth and comfortable (built by Bombardier) travelled at an average of 90mph on a new ROW. I think this far surpasses any American system when it comes to speed and comfort. tens of billions of dollars went into building the airport, railway and suspension bridge which is longer than the Verrazano, and I don't think any competant American city would pay for that.
-Daniel
Let's all agree, many cities have excellent airport-to-subway or railroad connections. Other good ones are Frankfurt, Cleveland, Zurich, Paris, London, Amsterdam, Philadelphia (except that it only runs every half hour), Baltimore, etc. However, it is a shame that NYC has none like that.
I can see why the PA wants to build a JFK connection to Jamaica: so it can have direct Railroad service from Penn Station. Because the airport is so far from midtown, subway service is unacceptable to some people, even though logically it is the most convenient in many ways. As evidence: London has had direct tube line service for 25 years from Heathrow, yet the 50-minute ride many-stop ride through the suburbs discouraged people from using it. Now they have a 15-minute railroad ride at 3x the price and it is popular. I, personally, would take the tube, but apparently different people are different. Many people preferred Gatwick because, though it was twice as far away, had a 30-minute railroad ride into London.
Now to LGA, extending the N train or building a connecting light rail line to the N would be worthwhile because it is a short ride to Astoria from Midtown.
Here is an interesting train to bus example that, if duplicated in NYC might work. Hamburg, Germany, has two train lines, U1 and S1, that come within about 3 miles of its airport. Every 5-10 minutes a bus with space for luggage leaves for the airport non-stop, at the normal fare, i.e. a free transfer from the subway.
NYC has tried everything but that for La Guardia. The M60 bus makes lots of stops along Bway and 125 St. It stops in Astoria but does not publicize that, and it only runs every 20-30 minutes. By using the Tri-Borough Bridge, it becomes unreliable. The Q33 is a neighborhood bus and "who knows how often is runs?"
What is needed is a well publicized, every 10-minute, non-stop bus (5 AM-12M) from either Roosevelt Avenue (E/F/G/R/7) or from Astoria Blvd (N). Lots of publicity that the N train (which goes nearly everywhere) leads to an express bus to LGA might work at nearly no extra cost. It would be reliable because of no traffic, it would be predictable because the N train always runs exactly the same way 24 hours a day, and it might be considered convenient because the N runs local through the Financial district, the Village, and along B'way and 59 St and connects with everything else at 4 big stations (14,34,42,Lex&59).
The London example is probably best for JFK Airport: the LIRR for those with no time and some money, the subway for those with time and wishing to save on expenses. Actually light rail from Jamaica would serve both, those taking the LIRR, and those taking the E Train to Sutphin Blvd, so it really is a good idea, at least to me.
The PA put the station at Jamaica because of politics, not because it belongs there. The LIRR Rockway line is a much more direct route and would have been much more economical to build and operate than the el on the Van Wyck.
Now that government has screwed things up, what we need is direct Airtrain service to Penn Station via the LIRR with through service to Newark and service to a new downtown terminal via the Atlantic Avenue branch of the LIRR and the BMT express, travelling through to the N extension and LaGuardia.
Yes, this "dream" system would likely redeem Airtrain as a concept and a coherent system. But can it actually be built? By this I guess I am asking whether the airlines would agree to have PFC's used to construct such an elaborate and expensive transit system?
[Yes, this "dream" system would likely redeem Airtrain as a concept and a coherent system. But can it actually be built? By this I guess I am asking whether the airlines would agree to have PFC's used to construct such an elaborate and expensive transit system?]
I don't think it's up to the airlines--don't federal regulations require a dedicated system?
But what I have in mind isn't really that expensive--in fact it probably could have been paid for within the $1.5 billion that went to build those grandiose stations and the useless Van Wyck extension. Penn service really involves nothing more than rolling stock for Penn/Newark service (assuming that NJ goes ahead with the Newark monorail link), and a connection via Rockaway or at Jamaica. Bringing trains to Lower Manhattan would mean joining the Atlantic Avenue Branch to the BMT, which would cost a few hundred million, but I'm assuming the MTA would do that (it would also benefit LIRR and subway riders). And the N extension to Laguardia is already in the works as an MTA project.
I think it's more a matter of will than cost. The City has wanted one seat access for a long time, but various parts have been blocked or are being blocked by
NIMBY's (don't want Rockaway branch)
Valone (doesn't want el extension to LGA)
The Airlines (didn't want to spend money on Airtrain)
The Port Authority (didn't want one seat service, is blocking LGA terminal access)
The LIRR (doesn't want Penn Station service)
NJT and Amtrak (say there's no room for Newark service on Northeast Corridor)
The FRA (doesn't want intermodal service)
Congress (bans airport fees for intermodal service)
Typical. The main reason in life for politicians and bureacrats seems to be to figure out new ways how not to block things.
[Yes, this "dream" system would likely redeem Airtrain as a concept and a coherent system. But can it actually be built? By this I guess I am asking whether the airlines would agree to have PFC's used to construct such an elaborate and expensive transit system?]
I don't think it's up to the airlines--don't federal regulations require a dedicated system?
But what I have in mind isn't really that expensive--in fact it probably could have been paid for within the $1.5 billion that went to build those grandiose stations and the useless Van Wyck extension. Penn service really involves nothing more than rolling stock for Penn/Newark service (assuming that NJ goes ahead with the Newark monorail link), and a connection via Rockaway or at Jamaica. Bringing trains to Lower Manhattan would mean joining the Atlantic Avenue Branch to the BMT, which would cost a few hundred million, but I'm assuming the MTA would do that (it would also benefit LIRR and subway riders). And the N extension to Laguardia is already in the works as an MTA project.
I think it's more a matter of will than cost. The City has wanted one seat access for a long time, but various parts have been blocked or are being blocked by
NIMBY's (don't want Rockaway branch)
Valone (doesn't want el extension to LGA)
The Airlines (didn't want to spend money on Airtrain)
The Port Authority (didn't want one seat service, is blocking LGA terminal access)
The LIRR (doesn't want Penn Station service)
NJT and Amtrak (say there's no room for Newark service on Northeast Corridor)
The FRA (doesn't want intermodal service)
Congress (bans airport fees for intermodal service)
Typical. The main reason in life for politicians and bureacrats seems to be to figure out new ways to block things.
One of the above impediments can be removed in November 2001. Retire Vallone.
[One of the above impediments can be removed in November 2001. Retire Vallone.]
Can I vote against the FRA too?
Vallone becomes Mayor, forget N to LGA (or any other public works anywhere). Vallone does not become Mayor, it will probably happen.
I would just like to mention that although Balimore has railway airport service, it is not "direct". Light rail would take you to BWI, but it takes a long time and makes amny stops and runs through some streets. MARC and Amtrak offers service to BWI, but you still have to take a bus and go by the limited scedules of the commuter train that is primarily a Baltimore-DC rail link down the NEC.
-Daniel
.........do any of you out there use the forum of US-TALK anymore ? when wa s the last time you visited and or
posted on this fine forum hosted by ""heypaul"" .........
......are there and or do any of you use the us-talk forum anymore hosted by ""heypaul""???
I do, and you know that,
BTW good luck on Project Redbird
I am a member and read all the messages but rarely post....
-Harry
..............thank you very much I......... intend to work very hard on PROJECT REDBIRD ......
..............thank you very much I......... intend to work very hard on PROJECT REDBIRD ......
..............thank you very much I......... intend to work very hard on PROJECT REDBIRD ..........
An "incident" at 145th Street on the 1/9 line
supposedly had all UPTOWN Service terminating
at 96th Street leaving a mass of humanity
(amidst an incomprehendable voice on the intercom
inviting us to take the Uptown 3 to the Bx 19 bus
--the reasoning still befalls me) Finally, a IRT 1
managed to not spill-out it's contents at 96th
and continued northward.. at 145th there was a
scent of burnt.. with a pool of water leading
from the rear of the platform all the way to
the midway... perhaps a track/platform fire?
When did all this happen?
Why can't the TA tells us what is really happening? Everything is an 'incident'. Fires, floods, sick people, etc.
>>>Everything is an 'incident'. <<<
Not true some things are, "police activity" others are "train ahead of us" still other things are blamed on "supervision", "red signal", "holding lights" etc, 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
I should of made myself a little clearer. The 'incident' message is what is heard at on the platform. The train announcements are even funnier. I've been in the front and we stop for a work crew. Five seconds later the conductor says either 'red signal' or 'congestion'.
And speaking of congestion-the T/O can find out how far the congestion extends to. It would be nice to announce it so that people could switch to another train. It really hurts when the express is crawling but local after local go wizzing by.
[I've been in the front and we stop for a work crew. Five seconds later the conductor says either 'red signal' or 'congestion']
And more often than not, the next signal is NOT red! If the TO told the people on the train that it stopped to pick up/drop off a work crew, it would be more reasonable, and truthful, than making up an excuse of a red signal or congestion that doesn't even exist. Maybe the TO should respond to the CR's excuse by telling him/her, and the people on the train, the truth.
This happened yesterday... and after dumping
4 consecutive trains at 96th, the 5th uptown
train actually proceeded onward.. did i
mention the smell of burnt at 145th??
Why terminate at 96th?? 42nd seems the more
intelligent choice.. at least there we can
catch the A for 168th to skip it all.
What do we do with the train then? It would still have to go north of 96 St to be sent south again. Isn't it better to keep it in service?
Smell of burnt what? Just curious....
>>>Everything is an 'incident'. <<<
Not true some things are, "police activity" others are "train ahead of us" still other things are blamed on "supervision", "red signal", "holding lights" etc
I've been in the front and we stop for a work crew. Five seconds later the conductor says either 'red signal' or 'congestion'. And speaking of congestion-the T/O can find out how far the congestion extends to. It would be nice to announce it so that people could switch to another train. It really hurts when the express is crawling but local after local go wizzing by.
And more often than not, the next signal is NOT red! Maybe the TO should respond to the CR's excuse by
telling him/her, and the people on the train, the truth.
Ok lets get a few things straight around here. Most of the time the train crew doesn't have a much better idea of why they are stopped than you do.
If the train is stopped in a station and the 3 yellow lights hanging from the ceiling are illuminated, the train is being held by supervision via the HOLDING LIGHTS and will not proceed until the lights go out. (Times Sq, for example, loves putting the lights on for NB 1 trains and forgetting to turn them off)
If the train is stopped in a station and the CR says "we are being held by supervision", it mean that Control has called on the radio and told ALL trains in a certain area to stop and stay. If the crew on your train can't hear the converstion from the train with the problem, they don't have a better reason to give you than SUPERVISION.
POLICE ACTIVITY should be fairly obvious, or should I have told everybody on my am rush train that we weren't stopping at Penn Station because of the possibility of bomb being located somewhere in the station? There is a fine line between the truth and THE TRUTH. Since I'm responsible for you when you are on my train, you'll get the version I think it best you hear.
THE TRAIN AHEAD OF US does occasionally have problems and we therefore get stuck behind it. If we're lucky we get stuck in a station and then might use the SUPERVISION ruse above, but at least you can leave. If we get stuck in the tunnel, you still complain and I 'm stuck with you yelling at me because we DIDN'T stay in the station.
RED SIGNAL/ CONGESTION. Actually these are both no-nos. The proper form is TRAIN TRAFFIC AHEAD OF US. According to the rules, the CR is to make an announcement immediately if there is a delay. As a result, the first announcement is usually made before the crew knows why they are stopped. Since the most likely reason is another train, it is probabaly a red signal preventing us from moving. The CR, being in the middle of the train, can't see what the real reason is. The work gang or the red signal will probably both hold us for about the same time, so what is the real difference between reality and what gets said? The end result is still the same - the train ain't moving. As for how far ahead the congestion goes - the TO doesn't know, no one will tell him, so he can't tell you. Even if he did, who's to say that something else won't happen to further delay service. Now you're all mad, beause I said the congestion last to 42nd St and we drag all the way to 125, and I have to deal with you. Why would I do this?
As a final note, the words you/your in the previous rant do not apply to any specific SubTalk poster, but instead to the general population of NYC Subway riders. If you see yourself being described, remember what I said; if you don't,watch your fellow passenger - it might be him.
Because the truth is not always pretty. If you were stuck in the tunnel, and they told you there was a fire, there's the possibility of panic. You can't predict human behavior. Do you want to stuck on a train and be told the reason you're stopped is because there's a guy who is now chop meat under the train? That might make a few people sick. You have to consider these things.
-Hank
If I am at 14th ST and the smoke condition is at Fulton-TELL ME.
If we ran over someone I still want to know. Sitting without knowing can be worse.
Do you like waiting in a doctors office way past your appointment time and not being told anything by the nurse or receptionist ???
[Do you like waiting in a doctors office way past your appointment time and not being told anything by the nurse or receptionist ???]
Especially when the doctor is unable to see you FSSR (busy with another patient, stuck on the highway, car broke down, involved in an accident, etc.).
I was once on an F train (of R32 cars) that passed through the 34th Street station due to a smoke condition. I think I remember hearing announcements with the words "smoke condition" in them.
This was before the station was changed into what it looks like now, mind you.
When was 34th Street rebuilt?
I think it's one of the nicer stations, while I think they should have done more that way, that would ruin the uniqueness of 34th.
1991 is when they did it, I always thought the ramps of that station made it look like a labrinth
There's that ramp that takes you from the mezzanine towards the northern end of the station. You have a choice of continuing in the same direction or doubling back if you're headed downtown via a second ramp. Then it's down a flight of stairs and you're at the platform. It gives you an idea of how deep that station is. 34th St. was one of the most, if not THE most, difficult engineering endeavors ever undertaken. If anything, it looks a lot brighter with the rehab. In the olden days, there was only incandescent lighting along the ramps, which was much dimmer.
Ah yes, the ambient incandescent light on the REALLY REALLY LONG rods in the 34th Street-6th Avenue ramps. Those rods had to be ten feet long or more. Pooh! Replaced by a mobile (or is it a stabile)?
One MAJ0R blunder NYCT made in choosing the 34th Street station decor was that they made it a non-traditional IND design, AND in the wrong color group as well. The original tile was in the Yellow family (42nd St: Red, 34th St: Yellow, West 4th: Green, B'way-Lafayette: Blue; 2nd Ave: Purple). The current design puts it in the Red family. Perhaps they weren't as aware of the IND designs in 1991 as they appear to be now. These days, they're very careful when they replace IND tile - every recent one's been pretty accurate.
I'm very picky about my IND tile.
Wayne
So I've noticed.:-)
I like it this way better. Excepting the color, nearly EVERY IND station looks the same. This way we get some variety. I don't think the subway should be stuck in 1930s era design, it's not like some priceless Bas-reliefs on the original IRT line, it's just cheap old IND tile.
Ah yes, cheap IND tile, but still beautiful in its cheapness. Even the ugliest colors (i.e. Queens Plaza, 125th Street, Bway-East NY) have their unique form of beauty.
They could have done the same design at 34th Street instead of using red and grey, used yellows, golds and browns; that would have been correct; red isn't. I guess they didn't know there was a pattern there. I was saddened by the sight of the original tile being stripped from the wall; this was back round 1990 or so.
i.e.
grey plaque background = GOLD plaque background
maroon background = BROWN background
red numerals = GOLD numerals (different shade than above)
orange tile accents = yellow tile accents
Wayne
We'll always find something that can be better. While it would have been better to use the IND color pattern, the station is at least better off with what it has now, as opposed to standard IND fare (no pun intended).
What about IND stations that have teamed up with Arts for Transit? Like the 81th St. station on the 'C'? I think it looked really neat, and they kept the orginal IND tile.
Actually, at 81st Street they've given it tile bands it never had. None of the local stops along 8th Avenue (NORTH of 23rd Street) had tile bands - colored tablets, yes, but no tile bands. 81st Street is the first local stop to have one - AND it's the right color too - Midnight Blue. The tablets are restored; and the little "81" captions are actually new. Too bad they couldn't have done this at 110th Street.
The mosaics and bas-reliefs in the rest of the station are great too.
I like the "Big Bang" sunburst one in the stairwell.
Wayne
It's not about not being told anything, it's about being notified. 'Delayed due to an incident ahead' is just fine, no need for specifics. It's the same as 'The doctor is busy.' Who cares why, especially since it's likely NOYB, given the circumstances (confidentiality). Right now, my company's email server is down due to an idiot activating the 'ILOVEYOU' virus. But all the people calling in need to know is that the server is down, and when we expect it back up. No need for the gory details.
-Hank
As a guess, they were probably terminating southbound service at 145 St and using only one track. To continue uptown from 96St you take the 3 to 145/Lenox, the Bx19 over to B'way and the 1 uptown from the sb track.
Doesn't anyone know (or can't anyone find out) what actually happened at 145th Street? Maybe it would be easier if the original poster would tell us what when the incident happened.
I've designed a rail transit system for Nassau county and eastern Queens using BAHN.
Anybody who's interested in it email me and I'll send you the file. How can I have it posted in the Bahn files directory here at www.nycsubway.org?
Long
Island
Rapid Transit
L-I-R-T---->
You can mail it to me as a zipped attachment.
-Dave
R-142 News
The final paragraph of the online version doesn't appear in the print version. I guess that got left on the cutting room floor given the space the article is in.
Hopefully our SubTalk friend Pelham Bay Dave will be able to let us know the 142's expected schedule. And maybe if we're really lucky, we can get word on it's first revenue trip -- that would be a great SubTalk Field Trip!
As for the No.6 line the TSS in R142 school car told me there Pushing for June 1st.
If there is a subtalk trip maybe with a Little luck I may be the First to operate it in service.
>...get word on it's first revenue trip
>..that would be a great SubTalk Field Trip!
You're kidding, right?
I quote SalaamAllah's previous month's
post about predicting the downfall of
the 142's and the "transverse cab club"..
Redbirds still lead this contest, 5-0.
The redbirds are so out the door man! the R26's are 40+ yrs and the 28 and 29's are just about there soon to be the R33's and 36's. these cars are so inefficient now to operate rusted at the car body its amazing we don't see light thru the carbodies!!!!
(snicker snicker)
You still have 2to5 more years with REDBIRDS so deal with it. And anything rehabed once can be done again have heard about luminator signs replacing roller signs for continuing redbird fleet for cars not replaced by 142s if that should happen. And anyway testing for R142s are still not completed 2nd full rehab of redbird fleet? possibility try looking out the window you might see the light more clearly... {snicker}...{snicker}
All Redbirds will be replaced by R-142/R-142A, their options (not contracted for yet), and the next (150-car) order. This is necessary; the Redbirds' bodies are falling apart and are beyond a cost-effective rebuilding. Mechanically, the cars are relatively modern (thanks to the 1980s overhauls) and are generally reliable, but their bodies are simply worn out due to years of New York weather and acid washes.
David
God that's so sad,I love those cars I grewup riding those cars.
I'm just joking here, so please don't take it as offensive.
YOU KNOW YOU'RE GETTING OLD WHEN...
5. You refer to subway lines and stations by their oldest names.
4. You still use a token to pay the fare because you believe that the MetroCard is a piece of junk.
3. You call the Bx55 bus the "Third Avenue El."
2. You remember riding the subway at a 5-cent fare.
And the #1 sign that you're getting old is...
1. The subway cars you remember riding as a kid have gone to the scrap yard.
As I said before, I was just joking.
My dad has something to add to #1.
The new cars you remember anticipating the arrival of have gone to the scrapyard.
......they dont build automobiles cars and even buses like they used to ..!!
now they build them out of styrofoam.......
Last week I picked up a Metro magazine, (not TPI metro) in which there was an article saying that transit vehicles (Especially buses) are getting lighter. They seemed to pride themselves (unlike Salaam) in that because it reduces fuel/electric costs. I have yet to read the full article.
Last week I picked up a Metro magazine, (not TPI metro) in which there was an article saying that transit vehicles (Especially buses) are getting lighter. They seemed to pride themselves (unlike Salaam) in that because it reduces fuel/electric costs. I have yet to read the full article. This does not hold true on the Market Frankford Line.
since you mentioned my name ( thank you for spelling it right )................
my response is that of cource styrofoam is lighter...!!!........... thank you .....
The term "light rail" is a misnomer in Denver, IMHO. Each of our LRVs weighs 40 tons, yet at 55 mph is very quiet.
And as long as we're on the subject:
Testing of the new Southwest Corridor has been held up while repairs are being made on the bridge over Big Dry Creek. Tests revealed insufficient concrete encasing around the inner steel core of each girder, and while strength is not an issue, durability is. The new line is still scheduled to open on July 14.
It has nothing to do with mass.
The "light" refers to the passenger volume.
It is in fact the weight the term is referring to. That's one of the main advantages of LRV's- being lightweight, it is easy for them to run on streets, and it also makes for a less expensive infrastructure. A light rail line is much cheaper to build than a typical rapid-transit or other "heavy rail line". In any case, the term dates back to the early 1980's when Boeing introduced their "Light Rail Vehicle" into the transit systems of Boston and San Francisco.
Streets are on the ground, weight doesn't matter. Trains of any weight can run in the street. They can run on ballast, can't they? That's weaker.
NO, wherever you put the tracks you must have the proper subgrade, drainage and foundation or the rails will settle. Different types of soils have different bearing capacities. Without proper preparation of the soil the track could become uneven, lose gauge and the settlement could break any water and sewer lines that run underneath the track.
but streets are not necessarily lightweight. You had heavy rail lines running in 11TH Avenue and there are still heavy rail lines in Brooklyn's 1ST and 2ND Avenues.
[but streets are not necessarily lightweight. You had heavy rail lines running in 11TH Avenue and there are still heavy rail lines in
Brooklyn's 1ST and 2ND Avenues]
TRUE! Here is the NYCHRR operating at 1st and 2nd aves. I would not classify this 50-year-old Alco S4 as "light" by any standards!
-Daniel
"Light Rail" was a British term for railways built lightly than main line railways. The US Urban Mass Transit Administration (UMTA) "hijacked" the term to sell new streetcars (the ill-fated Boeing built US Standard Light Rail Vehicle) to Boston and San Francisco.
The transit industry adopted the term to mean rail transit lines not built to "heavy" rail (Subway or rapid transit). It has nothing to do with car weights, Baltimore's and Dallas' cars are among the heaviest LRV's built.
I think that the work light in the term light rail is used a bit loosely. But I think that the thing that is light would be the infrastructure. Not necessarily light in terms of weight bearing strength - though keep in mind that all these LRVs are really lightweight compared to a modern diesel locomotive. But light in terms of infrastructure demand. Light rail can go around sharper turns, boards at low platforms, runs in shorter consists, can run on streets if need be, maybe go up pretty steep grades (?), etc. All of these things make for much less infrastructure, even if the vehicles are not that light.
......they dont build automobiles cars and even buses like they used to ..!!..
now they build them out of styrofoam.......
if you are 46 that could be true
How? The newest car scrapped was the R-30. If the person was born in 1954, they would have been 7 when the R-30 came in. That seems a bit too young to be sentient of new trains. Especially back then when they often looked the same.
OFTEN looked thesame? With the exception of the R32 and to stretch the matter a little the R36 with different side windows there was little difference on either division for all cars built between l955 and l964 which numbered thousands. (R16 thru 36).
Straps and storm doors are kinda distinguishing, as for the R-16 there were slanted door pockets and (i think) conversational seating.
The R-16's were not built with those slanted door pockets, They served a number of years before they were converted.
I think they were for larger door motors.
I know that they had to put the slanted panels in because of new larger door motors. The thing I am puzzled by is that they supposedly had to put new door motors in the R-17's too, and they did not have to put the dopey slanted panels in them!
The original R-16 door engines were under the seats, with one engine for two leaves except for the last leaves on either end, which had separate engines. They developed some sort of problem later, and in the mid-70s, the door engines were replaced with individual ones for each leaf. These were installed in the door pockets, with the slanted panels to enclose them.
Don't know if the R-17s ever got new door engines. They definitely never had slanted pockets in any event.
I agree, the R-17's did not get slanted panels. I thought I had read it here that they did get new door motors though! My problem was understanding if both the R-16's and R-17's got new door motors why were the 16's the only ones to get slanted panels?
When the R-16s were fitted with new door engines, there wasn't enough room under the seats for them. Consequently, the new engines were installed in the door pockets. Because of their size, the pockets had to be slanted.
If anything, Gene Sansone's book would have information regarding the R-17s. I will dig out my copy and check. If the R-17s did get new door engines, they must have been installed under the seats. Because the doors were more widely spaced, there was more room beneath the seats.
I'm 12, I remember the 30's
You obviously don't remember them new. You remember nothing new. Except for the new R-142 that's coming.
How can you remember a car that was scrapped when you were 5?
Gee, I recall someone on this board posting something about how all of your memories are stored in your sub-concious or something to that effect. It was recently too. I think his handle began with a P. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, but these are conscious thoughts, we're not talking about dreams!
Maybe we can look at it another way. I remember blue doored trains running on the Brighton El even though those were gone when I was 5. Later, I almost forgot it until I saw pictures of the blue-doored R-32 on this site. That's why I hold those trains in high esteem, it's the only thing that I can remember from that era (I remember them being scrawled in black graffiti too). I used to ride the R-46 all the time, but I didn't even notice it had a blue stripe! And I obviously didn't make the connection between the trains running on the Culver El (I saw them from below, didn't ride) in 1990 with the blue doored trains. I actually thought they were new!!! Although something made me feel they weren't and my beloved F was the victim of a transfer and got ugly looking trains (I must have been 8 or 9, old enough to remember).
At one point I think I remember seeing a red train on the Canarsie at Rockaway Parkway, but didn't think it unusual. It might be just a thought mix-up in my head, or it might have been real. It could only have been an R-30 because the R-16 was gone by the time we moved to Old Mill Basin in 1987. When I lived on Ocean Parkway, only the Culver El was part of my family's public transport.
I could continue talking about all of these things I faintly remember, but that belongs in a different thread. Or does it?
Man, you're not kidding about #1. #5 also pertains to me. The L is still the Canarsie to me; the N/R is still the BMT Broadway line, etc.
I still refer to the "N" as the Sea Beach and the "R" as the 4th Avenue Local. I MUST be getting old!! -- I still consider R-32's NEW!
Here's a possible new trend. I met a young woman (about 22, not a native New Yorker) who refers to the West Side IRT as the "Red Line" and the East Side IRT as the "Green Line." More generally, the terms IRT, BMT, and IND are disappearing from use.
At the other end of the scale, I know people over 60 who refer to PATH as "the Tubes" and Metro-North as "the Central" (i.e., New York Central.)
That's the one thing I hate about non-native New Yorkers. If you want the Red Line or the Green Line go to L.A. or D.C.!
or Boston !!
Or Chicago!
I still use IND, BMT, and IRT freely. Ditto for letter and number markings. The A train is simply, the A.
Conductor on the 42nd St. Shuttle:
This is Times Square. Transfer here for the Red, Blue, Yellow and Purple lines.
Why would anyone transfer from the shuttle to the 7?
By mistake.
:-)
Arti
You only have to be 41.
I grew up with the 62s I wouldent be too sad if they left
At least they're not as bad as the old coaches on the LIRR! The end vestibules were so rusted you could see through the floor and watch the track go by through half-dollar sized holes! Major thing I will miss about the redbirds is the blinking lights on switches (and propping the doors open on the R33s - a breeze through 2 open storm doors in an empty car with the windows open is better than any A/C experience - miss Philly M-3s), but as long as I can see out the front, even if it is through double windows, I'm happy. Of course, if the windows are like R-46 ones, I will be sufficiently pissed.
"a breeze through 2 open storm doors in an empty car with the windows open is better than any A/C experience"
NO!
DOWN WITH THE R-33 Singles.
And while we're at it, burn all school busses too.
The singles are a problem because the cars in front and behind have closed storm doors. A perfect breeze from front storm door, through all the middle cars, all the way to the last storm door would be better. I'm not saying more comfortable, but feeling a strong breeze on a subway car is a much better experience than recirculated air. Maybe that's why I've been riding the S.I. ferry a lot recently (can't seem to get anything but the American Legion lately, and haven't seen the Andrew J. Barberi in weeks.)
You can!!!
Crain's New York Business is running an extra-thick edition this week to mark its 15th anniversary. Its theme is the many ways in which New York has become a more liveable and prosperous place over the past several years. There are profiles of developers, corporations, civic leaders, and so on, and I have to say that I was quite impressed with many of the things I read. Crain's tends to be a reliable and reasonably unbiased source, so it's fair to say that the issue isn't just Chamber of Commerce-ish boosterism.
Yet every silver cloud has a dark lining, and this issue is no exception. There was an article on NYC's biggest missed opportunities and blunders, the things that should have been done during this period of prosperity, but haven't.* And number one on the list was, you guessed it, the almost complete lack of any significant public works projects - subways in particular. Some of this failure was attributed to political squabbling, and some to the mayor's obsession with building a new Yankee Stadium (is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the stadium plan is on the back burner?) But a couple of academic types cited something else - a general lack of public interest in these types of projects. One of the academics noted that people today increasingly retreat into what I'd call their private spheres of interest, their "private clubs and gated communities," to quote the article. Focusing on one's private life quite clearly translates into unconcern with public works projects. I suspect that this sort of focus also leads to a rise in NIMBYism, as people concern themselves solely with minor personal inconveniences and ignore the greater public good. The article ended with the quote that "even a Robert Moses" can't get public works projects build in today's environment.
* = some of the other missed opportunties and failures include the sluggish pace of development in Harlem (federal $$ is available, but Charlie Rangel wants to use it for social services rather than business development), the failure to expand the Javits Center (it's too small for some conventions, and a private developer has snatched up a logical expansion parcel), the lack of development of the old Alexander's site on 59th Street (a foundation's being built, but it just might be a ploy to evade new zoning rules), and the travails of the Venator (formerly Woolworth) Corporation (aka the incredible shrinking business).
I think there is some correlation between bad economic times and public works -- that is, politicians gain big points by pushing through public works programs when jobs are scarce.
Since the economy has been doing rather well and unemployment on a fairly steady decline for about 20 years, that may be a contributing factor in the lack of new public projects.
Chuck
[* = some of the other missed opportunties and failures include the sluggish pace of development in Harlem (federal $$ is available, but Charlie Rangel wants to use it for social services rather than business development), the failure to expand the Javits Center (it's too small for some conventions, and a private developer has snatched up a logical expansion parcel), the lack of development of the old Alexander's site on 59th Street (a foundation's being built, but it just might be a ploy to evade new zoning rules), and the travails of the Venator (formerly Woolworth) Corporation (aka the incredible shrinking business).]
I can certainly see and agree with the failure to develop Javits (and I agree with you that Giuliani backed down), but development in Harlem seems to me just the sort of let's-put-fancy-streetlights-downtown-so-people-will-come-back public works boondoggle we want to avoid. Businesses won't locate in Harlem because of its reputation for crime, period. Hell, as you (?) pointed out once, they won't even located to 14th Street in spite of its wonderful transportation.
My fantasy-vote for public works (apart from subway routes, about which I've yapped more than enough), based largely on ideas that are currently being floated or have been mentioned here:
-New convention center with space to accomodate huge shows like CES and NAB, ample parking, and new Madison Square Garden over the yard to the West of Javits. MSG and the center would share the parking space, and the Garden would be linked to the center for the largest events. It would be privately run and would compete with Javits, driving Javits's ridiculous costs down. It would also be designed with future expansion in mind, vertically if necessary (a network of ramps would permit direct truck access).
-Olympic stadium over the yard one block east, also sharing parking with the convention center and Madison Square Garden. The cost would be justified by tourism revenues from the Olympics; after the Olympics was over, it would house the Jets.
-New Penn Station. In return for the site near Javits, Amtrak would get the old Madison Square Garden. Penn Station is the world's busiest transportation facility; the current basement is a joke, and the Farley proposal will just create in inconvenient gash for Amtrak passengers in an otherwise wonderful building. The original Penn Station concourse, which was made of steel and glass and so is not that difficult to reconstruct, would be recreated where the current Garden is, and with the addition of walkways and moving sidewalks would be the primary Manhattan gateway for Amtrak, NJT, the LIRR, Metro North, the region's three airports via one seat rides, PATH, and most of the City's subway lines, with a stop at the convention complex and the existing one stop ride to the Port Authority Bus Terminal. The office building would remain initially, but over a period of time that could be as long as necessary the original station would be recreated.
-Columbia Hudson campus extension, built with landfill from the Second Avenue Subway. With more campus space the university could expand, creating a reliable source of regional revenue. Special attention would go to enlarging and beefing up the engineering school to attract more high tech businesses.
-Park creation and enhancement around Manhattan's waterfront, with San Francisco-like dvelopment, lots of marinas and such. We really overlook the watefront, a superb resource for tourism and a good way to increase property values.
-Inexpensive airport hotels in Queens to serve the convention center, served by those one seat rides.
-Better highway access to Brooklyn and Queens, also a business requirement, and a cross-Manhattan tunnel to facilitate passengers who are passing through.
-Lots of park and ride garages everywhere.
-And I'd love to fit the world's tallest--*way* tallest--building in there somewhere too. Trump would be delighted to build it (can anyone say "Ozymandias"?), and we should let him, as long as it's not pink and has a spike on top. Could it fit in the new convention center complex? No NIMY's there, and transportation up the wazoo.
[I can certainly see and agree with the failure to develop Javits (and I agree with you that Giuliani backed down), but development in Harlem seems to me just the sort of let's-put-fancy-streetlights-downtown-so-people-will-come-back public
works boondoggle we want to avoid. Businesses won't locate in Harlem because of its reputation for crime, period. Hell, as you (?) pointed out once, they won't even locate to 14th Street in spite of its wonderful transportation.]
It was me who pointed that out. It's not that 14th Street is a high crime area, it's that the Waverly "Income Maintenance" center has made the block between Fifth and Sixth avenues really downscale. There's some hope, as a few of the vacant storefronts have been occupied (many still remain, however), and a former social-services facility on the SE corner of 14th and Sixth is being renovated into upscale apartments.
[re proposed developments]
[-New convention center with space to accomodate huge shows like CES and NAB, ample parking, and new Madison Square Garden over the yard to the West of Javits. MSG and the center would share the parking space, and the Garden would be linked to the center for the largest events. It would be privately run and would compete with Javits, driving Javits's ridiculous costs down. It would also be designed with future expansion in mind, vertically if necessary]
Javits clearly has to be expanded, but I'm not sure that building a competing center would be the best idea. There's the risk that one might drive the other out of business in a fierce price war, and then the survivor will boost its rates (causing, of course, more losses to other cities). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any other cities with two or more full-scale convention centers. What really needs to be done is a major expansion of Javits. Whether that's physically possible, after the loss of the nearby expansion parcel as noted in Crain's, is another matter. I'm not familiar enough with the area to know for sure.
Javits' rates in this post-Mob era are reasonably competitive with other convention centers. Its main problem in attracting major cenventions, in addition of course to lack of space, is the simple fact that New York hotels cost an arm and a leg. Your proposal for inexpensive hotels near the airports would be a help ... *if* convention-goers would be willing to stay far from Manhattan, with single-seat access to Javits.
[Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any other cities with two or more full-scale convention centers]
Las Vegas.
Arti
[Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any other cities with two or more full-scale convention centers]
Las Vegas.
Arti
Houston, Orlando/Kissiminee, LA/Orange County.
Larry
McCormick Place in Chicago is said to be the largest in the USA (the world?). But McCormick is really 3 large halls interconnected by skyways. I am told that yet another huge hall is likely to be added to McCormick in the near future. There seems to be no limit to the need for more convention space. NYC would likely be a worthy competitor for the largest conventions if Javits could handle them. McCormick is no bargain by the way, and the unions have an outrageous stranglehold on the place (union electricians to plug in lamps for example.) Chicago hotels are not exactly cheap either. Once again, this shows that if NYC could just make a decent effort, it could be competitive.
As I understand Las Vegas has the largest capacity combined b/w different convention halls. I've been at NAB few times and heard rumours that in US it's the only place where it could be held (hotel capacity is also an issue). Once I was there as an exibitor and don't remember any crap like hiring an electrician to plug in a lamp etc. We could pretty much do whatever we wanted ourselves. Of course the prices of hotelrooms skyrocket during NAB.
Arti
[As I understand Las Vegas has the largest capacity combined b/w different convention halls. I've been at NAB few times and heard rumours that in US it's the only place where it could be held (hotel capacity is also an issue). Once I was there as an exibitor and don't remember any crap like hiring an electrician to plug in a lamp etc. We could pretty much do whatever we wanted ourselves. Of course the prices of hotelrooms skyrocket during NAB.]
Which is why if you're going it's a good idea to pretend you're a gambler--you can get the hotels' regular package rates, and you can get rooms even when there aren't any more available for NAB.
Chicago and LA have 60,000 hotel rooms. Orlando and Las Vegas have over 100,000.
New York City is a much bigger place than any of those, with many more non-convention travelers, yet it has only 60,000 hotel rooms. Result, you pay through the nose. The Javits Center is not the big liability for conventions in NYC. The shortage of hotel rooms, and the lack of a rail connection to the airport, are cited for the industry.
(I know this because I was assigned to write up an analysis of the convention industry for City Planning. As usual, a memo was written, plans were made, and the project diappeared).
NYC's plan to add hotel rooms? Ban them in more and more places, to ensure "hot sheet" hotels can't be built be ensuring NO hotels can be built. After all, hotels generally provide lots of low skill jobs, and shouldn't low skill people spend their lives sitting around in housing projects while on welfare?
My parents were in town. They couldn't get into the ONE major hotel in Brooklyn (which changes almost $200 per night).
The Golden Gate Inn was booked solid? (Only kidding.)
[Chicago and LA have 60,000 hotel rooms. Orlando and Las Vegas have over 100,000.
New York City is a much bigger place than any of those, with many more non-convention travelers, yet it has only 60,000 hotel rooms. Result, you pay through the nose. The Javits Center is not the big liability for conventions in NYC. The shortage of hotel rooms, and the lack of a rail connection to the airport, are cited for the industry.
(I know this because I was assigned to write up an analysis of the convention industry for City Planning. As usual, a memo was written, plans were made, and the project diappeared).
NYC's plan to add hotel rooms? Ban them in more and more places, to ensure "hot sheet" hotels can't be built be ensuring NO hotels can be built. After all, hotels generally provide lots of low skill jobs, and shouldn't low skill people spend their lives sitting around in housing projects while on welfare?
My parents were in town. They couldn't get into the ONE major hotel in Brooklyn (which changes almost $200 per night).]
I take back everything I said in defense of the City's government.
When they built Javits, I assumed hotels would spring up in the neighborhood of the convention center. With all those air rights going begging, it has to be one of the cheapest places to build in Manhattan.
At least there's hope for the rail link--if the state finds a partner for its one seat proposal, Airtrain could come right through to Javits via Track 21, and act as a shuttle from Penn to boot. Of course, that would cost about $999 million less than a $1 billion project, so it will never get done.
(When they built Javits, I assumed hotels would spring up in the neighborhood of the convention center. With all those air rights going begging, it has to be one of the cheapest places to build in Manhattan).
Not considering that you only get to build two FAR in floor area (two times the size of the lot), while the price of land assumes you are speculating to one day be permitted to build 10 FAR as in Midtown. Forget upzoning -- we need to "protect" the neighborhood from jobs, taxes for the city, etc. We need to protect the environment by having auto-oriented hotels built in NJ instead.
[Not considering that you only get to build two FAR in floor area (two times the size of the lot), while the price of land assumes you are speculating to one day be permitted to build 10 FAR as in Midtown. Forget upzoning -- we need to "protect" the neighborhood from jobs, taxes for the city, etc. We need to protect the environment by having auto-oriented hotels built in NJ instead.]
Is that so? In the neighborhood of Javits? That's entirely insane! It's not a residential area, it's a bunch of sleazy garages and bus yards.
I thought he meant in air rights in general. Maybe I misunderstood.
BTW, a new hotel just opened on the south side of 42nd St. between 7th and 8th Aves.
Is it true that NYC has only 60,000 hotel rooms? I thought the number was much higher, like 200,000. Obviously, I am wrong. By the way, my experience of the ability of city Planning Departments to have significant influence on policy leads me to believe that they rarely do - after all what is the point of being an elected official if control over these decisions is left to a bunch of dubious planner types?
[Is it true that NYC has only 60,000 hotel rooms? I thought the number was much higher, like 200,000. Obviously, I am wrong. By the way, my experience of the ability of city Planning Departments to have significant influence on policy leads me to believe that they rarely do - after all what is the point of being an elected official if control over these decisions is left to a bunch of dubious planner types?]
They wouldn't have to cede authority, just listen and do what's right rather than political expedient.
Oh well, case closed.
[Which is why if you're going it's a good idea to pretend you're a gambler]
Just pretending wouldn't work. You need some gambling history, i.e. member of some Casino club.
Arti
[[Which is why if you're going it's a good idea to pretend you're a gambler]
Just pretending wouldn't work. You need some gambling history, i.e. member of some Casino club.]
There are apparently package deals designed to appeal to gamblers.
[There are apparently package deals designed to appeal to gamblers. ]
But they are not usually available during big conventions. If you're an "insider" that's a different story.
Arti
[But they are not usually available during big conventions. If you're an "insider" that's a different story.]
I'm reluctant to say what I know here, so I'll have to email you.
[McCormick Place in Chicago is said to be the largest in the USA (the world?). But McCormick is really 3 large halls interconnected by skyways. I am told that yet another huge hall is likely to be added to McCormick in the near future. There seems to be no limit to the need for more convention space. NYC would likely be a worthy competitor for the largest conventions if Javits could handle them. McCormick is no bargain by the way, and the unions have an outrageous stranglehold on the place (union electricians to plug in lamps for example.) Chicago hotels are not exactly cheap either. Once again, this shows that if NYC could just make a decent effort, it could be competitive.]
las Vegas too has repeatedly pissed off the NAB by doing things like scheduling prizefights during the convention and withholding hotel tickets. NAB actually went elsewhere as a protest, but they had to come back, because there are only a handful of places that can handle the show.
Las Vegas is its own animal, but I don't see why New York can't just look at Chicago and match their facilities and hotel costs.
[NAB actually went elsewhere as a protest]
That was the fall Radio Show. It's much smaller than the spring show. NAB has grown from year to year and there's probably no other place they could hold it.
Arti
[Javits clearly has to be expanded, but I'm not sure that building a competing center would be the best idea. There's the risk that one might drive the other out of business in a fierce price war, and then the survivor will boost its rates (causing, of course, more losses to other cities). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any other cities with two or more full-scale convention centers. What really needs to be done is a major expansion of Javits. Whether that's physically possible, after the loss of the nearby expansion parcel as noted in Crain's, is another matter. I'm not familiar enough with the area to know for sure.
Javits' rates in this post-Mob era are reasonably competitive with other convention centers. Its main problem in attracting major cenventions, in addition of course to lack of space, is the simple fact that New York hotels cost an arm and a leg. Your proposal for inexpensive hotels near the airports would be a help ... *if* convention-goers would be willing to stay far from Manhattan, with single-seat access to Javits.]
Actually, I thought that was your proposal.
I haven't seen the Crane's article yet so I didn't know about the lost parcel. But competition between two centers doesn't bother me! I'd be more concerned with price fixing than a price war.
The folks cited in that article are fairly liberal, and they fail to mention one factor in the public works decline -- the capture of (by national standards) an unusually large share of the city's budget (and whatever money the state and federal government make available in the city) by what used to be called the "reform" element of the Democratic Party -- and their health and social service agencies and non-profit organizations.
We're talking about 100,000 people employed in the government, and 500,000 outside it but substantially with public money. Two-thirds of that may be for services, but one-third is the liberal low-effort full employment act. To pay for it, the city's local government taxes are already among the highest in the country. The rest of the country and state -- who seem to want to destroy NYC anyway -- respond to paying for their share by screwing the city on state and federal infrastructure funding.
Public works was a jobs program for traditional machine Democrats. But with all the money going to support those working in the health and social services industries, there is little money left. The construction unions and companies have responded to scarcity by ensuring that the few public works investments that do happen cost LOTS of money.
Then there is the procedural issue -- equaling the idiocy of Robert Moses, but in reverse.
For the record, Crain's isn't in favor of public works either.
[The folks cited in that article [in Crain's] are fairly liberal, and they fail to mention one factor in the public works decline -- the capture of (by national standards) an unusually large share of the city's budget (and whatever money the state and federal government make available in the city) by what used to be called the "reform" element of the Democratic Party -- and their health and social service agencies and non-profit organizations.]
But whose fault is that? The sad truth is that NYC residents, or at least the ones whose opinions count, *like* these absurd spending levels. Remember the outcry when Giuliani proposed selling some of the public hospitals? From the way the Upper West Siders and the Times reacted, you'd have thought he had proposed selling babies for fish bait.
[But whose fault is that? The sad truth is that NYC residents, or at least the ones whose opinions count, *like* these absurd spending levels. Remember the outcry when Giuliani proposed selling some of the public hospitals? From the way the Upper West Siders and the Times reacted, you'd have thought he had proposed selling babies for fish bait.]
There's some kind of masochistic impression here that if the City cuts any social service, it's being cruel to the poor. When I complained the other day that poor people around the world are told to fly to New York for free operations, someone attacked me for being callous to the sick. I don't know where that attitude comes from--maybe it's a reaction to the welfare-for-the-rich policies of the national Republican party in recent years--but it's damn hard to get through. Or maybe it's just Jewish guilt. Whatever it is, it's damn hard to break through.
There is also a racial/economic angle to the anti-public works situation: with the city currently being heavily Black/Hispanic/Asian populated (who tend to be lower-middle class) -- and with those in charge of the purse-strings NOT of those groups -- there's a certain amount of "it'll only benefit the minorities so why bother" attitude attached to such policy decisions.
Doug aka BMTman
(There's some kind of masochistic impression here that if the City cuts any social service, it's being cruel to the poor).
Generosity does not extend to the city's poor school children. NYC public school spending is low, and what does get spent is designed to provide a low-effort income for public employees commuting in from the suburbs. Judging by those who "represent" them the city's Blacks and Latinos don't care about education.
As for the Upper West Siders, New York State #2 in abortions per 1,000 women of childbearing age. "We would have let you exterminate them, so don't ask us to educate them."
Despite allowing seniors to ride for half-price, the MTA didn't think much of my suggestion for half-price Metrocards for kids either.
[As for the Upper West Siders, New York State #2 in abortions per 1,000 women of childbearing age. "We would have let you exterminate them, so don't ask us to educate them."
Despite allowing seniors to ride for half-price, the MTA didn't think much of my suggestion for half-price Metrocards for kids either.]
Kids don't vote, and neither do the poor. Old people, OTOH, vote in droves, and it pays off.
Interestingly enough, some recent studies have suggested that the widespread availability of abortion beginning in the 70's is responsible for the drop in crime. Fewer unwanted children.
What the Pro-life (aka Pro-suffering) movement doesn't realize is that when an unwanted child is born, it WILL NOT have a good life and will suffer throughout it.
Regardless of how you define life, a embryo/fetus within the first two trimesters of pregnancy does not "feel," nothing would be lost to the person. And certainly if it's being aborted it doesn't affect it's "loved ones" in grief.
[What the Pro-life (aka Pro-suffering) movement doesn't realize is that when an unwanted child is born, it WILL NOT have a good life and will suffer throughout it. ]
Pro-life as a religious movement doesn't need any arguments or analysis.
Arti
Then there are those that believe it should be imposed on the remainder of society.
If they believe it solely from a religious point-of-view, then their wish to ban it violates the first amendment (although banning it would require an amendment, so it's moot).
[Pro-life as a religious movement doesn't need any arguments or analysis.]
Actually, I don't think that's true; I'm no expert, but AFAIK the Bible contains no prohibition on abortion, nothing that says a child gets a soul at the moment of conception (which, BYW, is what--the moment the lucky sperm touches the egg? Finishes entering it? The moment the chromosomes start to link? Finish linking?), and nothing that equates abortion to "murder." And the Catholic Church sanctioned abortion at one time.
It's just he impression I've got.
Arti
Not to get off topic, but the Catholics aren't the only religious group in this town with an opinion on when abortion is prohibited, allowed, or required. I've been told that under Jewish law, abortion is never optional; it's either prohibited or mandatory, depending on the circumstances.
[Not to get off topic, but the Catholics aren't the only religious group in this town with an opinion on when abortion is prohibited, allowed, or required. I've been told that under Jewish law, abortion is never optional; it's either prohibited or mandatory, depending on the circumstances.]
Mandatory? After what, sex with a gorilla?
So what? These are the same people that believe that the world was created in 7 days, and daytime and plants both existed before the sun did.
"These are the same people that believe that the world was created in 7 days, and daytime and plants both existed before the sun did."
HELLO!!! Since when are Catholics fundamentalists, you gibbering moron? Show me where the Catholic Church has claimed that the Genesis story of creation is literally true. There are plenty of practicing Catholics -- including priests -- that are scientists and physicians.
[HELLO!!! Since when are Catholics fundamentalists, you gibbering moron? Show me where the Catholic Church has claimed that the Genesis story of creation is literally true. There are plenty of practicing Catholics -- including priests -- that are scientists and physicians.]
IIRC, Catholic doctrine interprets the Creation story as meaning the process by which God instilled man - who may very well have evolved in the Darwinian sense - with human consciousness. No claims are made that God was responsible for actual physical creation of man or anything else in the literal sense.
It's nice to see that you've matured to the point of using insults in your arguments.
Not every person in a religion feels the same way, there are Catholics who believe in creation, those who believe in other theories, and similarly those who believe that abortion should be allowed.
And there are pro-lifers that are against abortion. They would never do it and don't want anyone to do it, but are sane enough to be against a law that would ban it.
"What the Pro-life (aka Pro-suffering) movement doesn't realize is that when an unwanted child is born, it WILL NOT have a good life and will suffer throughout it."
I really shouldn't do this, because I know it will spin out of control and it's totally off-topic (although sometimes I think this board should be called Pol-Talk for how much politics comes up), but I've got a one-word answer to your absolute, unqualified, statement that an unwanted child "WILL NOT" have a good life: adoption.
I know adoption isn't appropriate in every case, and I'm not against abortion in some cases. But a bald-faced assertion that every unwanted child should be aborted because it will with metaphysical certainty (to quote a certain television host) have a bad life is a gross misstatement.
[I know adoption isn't appropriate in every case, and I'm not against abortion in some cases. But a bald-faced assertion that every unwanted child should be aborted because it will with metaphysical certainty (to quote a certain television host) have a bad life is a gross misstatement.]
Unfortunately, the minority kids who are likely to need adoption are the ones least likely to get it.
Then too, I think there's something subtler going on here. Statistically speaking, a certain percentage of girls who would choose an abortion if avaialble will keep their children rather than putting them up for adoption if it isn't. There are very strong instincts at work here! Thus the percentage of unwanted babies being raised by mothers with behavioral deficiencies will increase.
aybe so, and I speak as awhite man who isn't a lioberal. To quote George Bailey in "It's a Wonderful Life" these are the people who do most of the living and dying and buying in this town. That was in reference to a racial minority, albeit Caucasians, that were looked down on some years ago.(Italians) The same applies here and these people are (like the average white American) the people who are making the money for those who live fancy and are just as entitled to good services as anybody else.
[There is also a racial/economic angle to the anti-public works situation: with the city currently being heavily Black/Hispanic/Asian populated (who tend to be lower-middle class) -- and with those in charge of the purse-strings NOT of those groups -- there's a certain amount of "it'll only benefit the minorities so why bother" attitude attached to such policy decisions.]
Not only do the poor tend not to vote, but the few who do they vote Democratic.
It's hardly by chance that the MTA wanted to build the Second Avenue stubway for the silk stocking district while ignoring everybody else.
And kids don't vote at all. Which leads me to an interesting notion, which is that parents should be able to cast a vote in the name of their kids.
[And kids don't vote at all. Which leads me to an interesting notion, which is that parents should be able to cast a vote in the name of their kids. ]
Why not let the kids vote for themselves. Reason for not letting kid's to vote is the belief that they will vote whatever the parents tell them. That was the reasoning not letting women to vote.
Arti
It works that way when you're younger, because your parents know everything and what did you ever do without them.
With teenagers they (or actually, I should say we) can think for themselves. People who say that teens will choose candidates for all the wrong reasons are the same ones who want to keep a certain adult group from voting because they will vote against the politicians.
As for voter apathy, it doesn't make a big difference whether or not the people who have been given the right to vote will vote in the long run. The generation given the right to vote obviously will appreciate it (or maybe not).
And if you think I have a vested interest in the matter of lowering the voting age, I'd be happy to tell you that I no longer do (thanks to the 26TH amendment).
[And if you think I have a vested interest in the matter of lowering the voting age, I'd be happy to tell you that I no longer do (thanks to the 26TH amendment).]
The most interesting thing about said amendment is that, on average, teens didn't vote any differently than adults.
[And if you think I have a vested interest in the matter of lowering the voting age, I'd be happy to tell you that I no longer do (thanks to the 26TH amendment).]
The most interesting thing about said amendment is that, on average, teens don't vote any differently than adults.
[Why not let the kids vote for themselves. Reason for not letting kid's to vote is the belief that they will vote whatever the parents tell them. That was the reasoning not letting women to vote.]
LOL, I had that idea a few years back. What a great lesson in democracy! But they'd never do it, because the younger kids would put their parents to shame, studying the issues in school and turning out 100%.
More seriously, it would interfere with our fantasy that adult voters make some sort of informed choice. The outcome of eletions is essentially random with an occasional overlay of issue, such as a depression or unpopular war.
But that gives me an idea. What about having a kid's election the day before election day? The polling places would open a day early, and kids could go in and vote, with their votes counted and reported on the evening news. And I'd lower the real voting age, and for that matter the age of majority, to 14, which is more in line with the actual developmental level of adolescents.
[And I'd lower the real voting age, and for that matter the age of majority, to 14, which is more in line with the actual developmental level of adolescents. ]
I think that's a good idea. BTW in the USSR the voting age was 16, not that really mattered of course.
Arti
[There is also a racial/economic angle to the anti-public works situation: with the city currently being heavily
Black/Hispanic/Asian populated (who tend to be lower-middle class) -- and with those in charge of the purse-strings NOT of those groups -- there's a certain amount of "it'll only benefit the minorities so why bother" attitude attached to such policy decisions.]
That may be true in general - the city's decrepit public schools are an example - but I'm not so sure when it comes to the subway. Figure that the biggest blunder is the failure to build a Second Avenue line. Who suffers most? Affluent whites on the Upper East Side.
Did the poor, of any race or color, ever control the City government?
The lowest class never controls anything.
The middle class will, from time to time, decide that it cannot stand the upper class anymore and take over.
All that happens is a periodic shift between the two upper classes, the proles are always down there on the bottom.
See "Theories and Practice of Oligarchic Collectivism" by Emmanuel Goldstein (clue: you'll find it on the shelf in your library, but not in the catalog).
[Did the poor, of any race or color, ever control the City government?]
Yes and no. In the late 19th--early 20th Centuries, the poor (who were at that time the working class) took over both the City and State governments, and gave us Tammany-style ward politics. But whether that constituted control is another question entirely. Many of the pols they chose were Senator Pothole types, who distributed petty largesse while keeping most of the booty for themselves. It took the efforts of the middle class (which again, in those days didn't include the working class) and the traditional old money establishment to move things in the direction of genuine social services. As the services grew in magnitude and became entitlements, as poor people moved in from the southern states, and as unionization lifted the working class into the middle class, the social services system created a new type of poverty, a stubborn, reluctant, self-destructive and violent poverty of welfare dependency. These people do not vote, although they have some influence over local policies and elections.
[That may be true in general - the city's decrepit public schools are an example - but I'm not so sure when it comes to the subway. Figure that the biggest blunder is the failure to build a Second Avenue line. Who suffers most? Affluent whites on the Upper East Side.]
I think that's why they proposed the stubway. Which gets back to a dilemna we've discussed: poor and middle class residents have very different needs. Ask a poor person if he'd pay extra for a nice station or a seat, and he'll probably tell you that he'd rather have the money to by rent, or food, or booze. Ask a middle class person and if the cost differential isn't too much he'll take the seat.
The main problem as I see it isn't that poor people are getting lesser transportation service than middle class people--they pay more in taxes, after all--but that NYC residents *of a given income* pay more in taxes and receive less in services, and that creates inefficiencies by distorting the economic fabric.
But the overall issues are complex, both economically and politically. What we really need is a regionally policy, that taxes equally and competitively with the sunbelt, that shares the burden of the poor equally and doesn't try to do what the Fedreal government should be doing, that distributes business and income taxes equally. But we're so damned far from that!
The car culture, NIMBY'ism, and self isolation are on the rise these days. Shopping malls are not as crowded today, because many now shop
online. Also beaches and parks seem to get less people, as people are working more and are concerned more with finances.
And growth has slowed in alot of ways. Traffic gets worse in NYC, and has gotten MUCH worse here in Nassau county. Yet no one here dares to mention a solution to this problem, which is especially severe in northern, western, and central parts of the county.
There has not been many new major public works projects in Nassau county. It amazes me how the LIRR Main line has not been elvated to eliminate grade crossings in central Nassau county. LIRR is a perfect example of the lack of improvement. Jamaica station is disgusting, yet this major terminal has not had any major improvement.
Also electrification of the Oyster Bay and Port Jefferson branches of the LIRR has not taken place. The OB line's poor service testifies to the power of area NIMBY's, who've opposed everything from mass transit and road improvements, to supermarkets and shopping centers.
Nassau county only has three shopping malls(excl Green Acres, which really serves Queens), and only one major one, Roosevelt Field, the site of extreme traffic congestion much of the time. Broadway Mall (in Hicksville) is small, and has had only minor improvements. And the new JC Penney there is only ONE level, probably a result of the neighorhood's protest of the mall's expansion.
And in NYC, airport access remains a problem. The LIRR Rockaway branch which could easily connect to the NYC subway system, sits in waste while an expensive Airtrain is built in such away to deter people from using it because of pricing and design.
Expansion of the N line to LGA is halted by strong NIMBY'ism.
Our arteries in the NYC area are clogging and new ones must be built, or it dies of a "heart" attack because it's blood cannot flow, we cannot let the attitude of corrupt politicians and selfish NIMBY civic groups kill us. A Metropitan area is like a person, it needs it's "blood" to flow or it cannot grow and die.
[There has not been many new major public works projects in Nassau county. It amazes me how the LIRR Main line has not been elvated to eliminate grade crossings in central Nassau county. LIRR is
a perfect example of the lack of improvement. Jamaica station is disgusting, yet this major terminal has not had any major improvement.
Also electrification of the Oyster Bay and Port Jefferson branches of the LIRR has not taken place. The OB line's poor service testifies to the power of area NIMBY's, who've opposed everything from mass transit and road improvements, to supermarkets and shopping centers.]
I suppose we could say that the LIRR's replacement of its ancient diesel fleet is a "public works project" of sorts. It certainly has made commuting much better for many people, and the advent of dual-mode service, in my view, makes it pointless to extend electrification any further. Now if they could just hurry up and replace the electric fleet ...
Jamaica station is pretty shabby, but as far as I know there are some major renovations in the works, some of them connected to Airtrain. At any rate, most riders who use Jamaica aren't there for long, just enough time to change trains. Oh, as far as grade-crossing elimination is concerned ... remember the Herricks Road fiasco?
[makes it pointless to extend electrification any further]
Aren't electric trains more cost effective over their liftime (operating/maintenance.) Also they accelerate better.
Arti
Guess everyone has their own axe to grind on this matter, including the almost forgotten pollution by generation of electricity. Of course we use native fuel mostly coal [I think] to generate electricity; look at what the GGl's could do, for that matter some of the lesser known electrics as compared to diesels OF THEIR TIME.Check out Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain most intercity main lines are electric so [admittedly their traffic density is greater] simply stated their must be something right about electric railroads.The petroleum industry and related matters have the USA by the throat and the public loves it.
[including the almost forgotten pollution by generation of electricity. ]
The larger the fossil fuel to energy conversion facility the more effective it is, i.e power plants pollute less than equivalent of cars, locos etc.
Arti
(The larger the fossil fuel to energy conversion facility the more effective it is, i.e power plants pollute less than equivalent of cars, locos etc).
I'm not sure that's true, once power lost in transmission is added. Would a battery operated electric car recharged from a remote oil-fired power plant (assuming state-of-the-art but not outside the envelope ie. superconductor) really use less oil than a gasoline powered car of similar size?
Would a battery operated electric car recharged from a remote oil-fired power plant (assuming state-of-the-art but not outside the envelope ie. superconductor) really use less oil than a gasoline powered car of similar size?
Yes, it probably would. The savings would not be huge, however.
The real savings in mass transit electrification comes from three sources: one, a large amount of electricity is generated by other than fossil fuel (hydro - still the largest energy source in North America - and nuclear); two, energy is only used when the vehicle is in motion; and three, electric motors are much more capable of starting and accelerating a train quickly and efficiently. A diesel at rest still consumes a prodigious amount of fuel, and it cannot produce electrical energy nearly as efficiently as a huge fixed generating plant. Transmission losses, by comparison, are small.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[A diesel at rest still consumes a prodigious amount of fuel]
That's why diesel locomotives are rarely ever turned off. The energy required to start them is too great. One advantage to gasoline engines is the great acceleration potential, while electrics get more torque at low speeds.
-Daniel
Perhaps, but Diesel locos do not use anti-freeze. It woud leak out. If the deisel were shut down it would be necessay to keep it warm or from freezing. I beleive its because of the large size of the engin block casting that creates many more seems than a small deisel or gasoline engin. While running it uses very little fuel when idleing.
Maybe a bus mech would know for sure.
avid
There are computerized systems on new locomotives that are designed to keep the block warm on cold nights. A conventional locomotive is run all night if there is ANY chance whatsoever that it will freeze. This system runs the engine only if the temp of the block drops below 34 F or so. I think it may also have a special heating mode, or maybe even an external heater, instead of just running the engine. These things cut down on wear, in addition to saving fuel. Of course, the engine will dump its coolant if it does get too cold, an additional safety measure.
The freight RRs are making noises about conserving fuel. One wonders if anything has changed in reality. Of course, the new locomotives are quite fuel efficient relative to the older ones.
Also nowadays regenerating is possible when decelerating.
Arti
What would be huge is the savings in smog causing pollution. *New* fossil fuel plants can (and are) be made to emit very small amounts of smog causing pollution - even smaller than todays clean burning cars.
However, I still think it would be better to go with a fuel cell/hybrid system. No heavy batteries means less total energy use (therefore, less CO2 production) and these could be made a lot cleaner in terms of smog pollution than a conventional auto engine ever will be.
I'm not sure that's true, once power lost in transmission is added. Would a battery operated
electric car recharged from a remote oil-fired power plant (assuming state-of-the-art but not
outside the envelope ie. superconductor) really use less oil than a gasoline powered car of similar
size?
Power transmission losses are pretty small.
It is the efficiency of the battery system and the motor system
that is the key point. With today's technology that can re-generate
braking energy, AC motors and better batteries, the efficiency should
be higher as opposed to conventional internal combustion engine
vehicles. Hybrid gas-electric cars, in which the engine normally
operates at a fixed RPM where efficiency is peaked, also effect
an energy savings. As someone else pointed out, though, a primary
advantage of electric distribution is that non-fossil energy sources
can be used.
[As someone else pointed out, though, a primary
advantage of electric distribution is that non-fossil energy sources
can be used.]
One problem though with this is that as things now stand these are essentially fixed resources. We're out of rivers to dam (and will probably be undaming some), and the political situation makes it virtually impossible to build new reactors. So switching to mass transit doesn't reduce our dependency on fossil fuel, except insofar as the train may be more efficient.
Well, not quite. Although I am adamantly anti-nuclear(an argument for another forum), there is a huge electrical potential in simply more efficient use of what we have. Frinstane, have you compared an electronic ballast "T-8" 48 inch fluorescent to an old style magnetic T-12? Ballast 30 % better tube 20 % less juice AND 20 % more light output. Typically 2 or 3 tubes replace four old tubes. Though much has been done there is a huge area out there not yet retrofitted. Item two, in some limited commercial settings heat exchangers have been set up to use waste heat from the refrigeration units to heat water(ice'maker powers dishwasher). If we ever set this up for homes
(most newer homes have water piped to the fridge anyway for the ice making function), we could see another jump in efficiency. And remember when PRR used electrics for freight? They had generating capacity at a dam on the Susquehanna IIRC the freight motors are gone (dumb politics). The other issue raised has to do with which generating method is able to get away with dirty processes--see current news about over the road diesel truck fuel.
Nuclear Power does have concerns. I mean look at the worst nuclear energy disaster in U.S. History: Nothing happened, the area is still clean, people still work in the neighboring reactor and people still live around it. Tourists come to see the dead one, which is nothing more than a huge concrete block with a metal wad for a core.
See, Nuclear Energy is dangerous and must be stopped at any cost.
I don't think you could build a nuclear plant anywhere in US, NIMBYs (NIMSes) won't let it happen. Of course if one would come up with some friendlier name for the whole thing, maybe:-)
Arti
Let the private sector decide. Could a nuclear plant get liability insurance after Chernobyl? What would be the cost of disposing of the waste truly safety, and having someone assume liability for 10,000 years?
If the government is expected to pick up the tab for any and all accidents and disposal, that's a subsidy.
Forty-five years ago at the dawn of the commercial nuclear age one of the concerns voiced by the anti-nukes was how to deal with spent nuclear fuel. The response was that new technology would be developed by the time spent fuel came into existance.
Spent fuel happened 30 years ago and we're still trying to figure out what to do with it.
Bob
[Could a nuclear plant get liability insurance after Chernobyl? ]
Yes, as Russian reactors were built differently. There is no chanche Cherobyl could happen here.
Arti
I was about to say the same thing. We cannot use the same standards for American equipment that are used for underengineered Soviet crap that wasn't even enclosed in concrete.
And so many people cry on and on about nuclear waste.
The effects of spent nuclear waste on the environment are much less than those of emissions from the burning of fossil fuels. And that IS taking into account the larger amount of fossil fuel plants.
Let me say for the record that I am NOT anti-nuclear.
The big problem with spent nuclear fuel is that fission of uranium-235 is raw plutonium, which, unfortunately, is prime bomb fuel, so it sits in swimming pools at every power plant. The NRC was supposed to find a way to safely store/dispose of it (and, keep it out of the hands of terrorists and other nutballs), but either is still (1) doing nothing or (2) researching something that isn't ready yet.
I gotta way to get rid of it and the technology to do it exists right now. All you gotta do is load it into a rocket booster and shoot it into the Sun. The star is so big that it can chew the waste up like it's rice cakes. It would take a lot of boosters to do it, but the Russkies have a lot to sell and an economy that needs any cash it can get. They have a lot of excess rocket stuff to sell, including a lot of boosters.
Here in Crab City, the local utility, Baltimore Gas & Electric, can run the whole electric grid off Calvert Cliffs, their nuke plant on the weekends. At that time we at BSM have a nuclear powered twelve bench open car, and all the MTA's LRV's are, too.
If there is a nuke in the house, I would appreciate being told how a "spent" fuel rod is different from a new one. They're both highly radioactive, aren't they? Is a "spent" fuel rod less radioactive? Does it produce less heat? If not, why can't fuel rods be left in the reactor forever?
It reaches a point where controlled fission of something is either dangerous or impossible (try to split a hydrogen atom, will you).
Might be difficult unless it's duterium or tritium; and even then, I'll leave it to the experts.
Nuclear fission is the splitting of the nucleus.
That wouldn't actually cause fission, you'd just be taking away neutrons, which you need to do in order to start the first fission reaction anyway (fission is caused by neutron bombardment). You also have beta radiation in which an electron is emmited, but the atomic number goes up by one because a neutron becomes a proton.
[Is a "spent" fuel rod less radioactive? Does it produce less heat? If not, why can't fuel rods be left in the reactor forever?]
A spent fuel rod means that the percentage of unreacted fissionable material that remains is insufficient to generate heat efficiently. It is still radioactive, hence the concern about safe storage. It is also full of toxic metals. It will not generate a dangerous amount of heat in storage because it is no longer bombarded by excess neutrons of appropriate energy to sustain nuclear reaction. It is decaying only at its natural rate for whatever isotopes it is comprised of.
It has to be replaced with a new rod that has enough fissionable material to generate heat efficiently when subjected to reactor conditions (neutron bombardment).
Bob
Just make sure Lex Luthor doesn't attach a strange device to one of the missiles that cause a rival to superman to emerge from the energy of the reaction
I did read that there has been developed a method of either using of producing Thorium that eliminates the weapons grade Plutonium as a byproduct. This should be only a few years off, but is doomed to failure if it is not compatible with existing reactors.
Better hope the rockets lifting the fuel off don't blow up. And it takes a lot of energy to transport a ton of material to the sun. Lots.
I don't think the private sector deals with the long term effectively. Frankly, if the power company told me that they had been told by their private insurer that their nuke plant was safe, that would mean nothing to me. Why?
Because the chances of a problem are very small, compared to the chances of a fire at a grocery store (a reasonable thing for an insurance company to worry about). But if there is a problem, it could be absolutely catastrophic. So they (power company and insurer) just go under, in that case. The insurer is essentially useless. And the power company has made a reasonable decision in the context of how business decisions are made. Has allowing the power company to do this this way been good public policy? I have my doubts.
Fear of future liability has done essentially nothing to prevent most forms of pollution. Yes, regulation has its place.
[Nuclear Power does have concerns. I mean look at the worst nuclear energy disaster in U.S. History: Nothing happened, the area is still clean, people still work in the neighboring reactor and people still live around it. Tourists come to see the dead one, which is nothing more than a huge concrete block with a metal wad for a core.
See, Nuclear Energy is dangerous and must be stopped at any cost.]
The actual risk seems to be a bit less than the risk of a coal fired plant--which is fairly low, but not negligible.
But people don't trust the government and the nuclear power industry, and Three Mile Island is the main reason. If they hadn't lied through their teeth and said that nuclear power was completely safe and that you couldn't possibly have a meltdown, people might be more trusting. Reminds me of a term I haven't thought of since the sixties--"credibility gap."
Which is totally wrong. Three Mile Island PROVES that even with a nuclear meltdown occuring, there isn't much danger of it other than a wasted plant.
Nuclear Power advocates and opposers both look to Three Mile Island as an example of Nuclear Safety. For the opposition, it seems foolish to use TMI as an example.
[Which is totally wrong. Three Mile Island PROVES that even with a nuclear meltdown occuring, there isn't much danger of it other than a wasted plant.
Nuclear Power advocates and opposers both look to Three Mile Island as an example of Nuclear Safety. For the opposition, it seems foolish to use TMI as an example.]
Three Mile Island was only a partial meltdown, not a worst case scenario. You can't really extrapolate from such a rare occurence. But again, I don't think the issue was the magnitude of the accident itself, but rather of public trust. I read an article once which compared peoples' assessments of everyday risks with the assessments of professionals. Overall, the public was amazingly accurate--an old evolutionary trait, I suppose--but they were way wrong on two things. They assumed that the lung cancer risk from smoking was higher than it is, understandable given the years of publicity. And they assumed that nuclear power was one of the greatest dangers, when in fact it was down in the (low teens? I don't remember the exact figure) right below coal and oil fired plants, which kill insidiously and without drama.
[Overall, the public was amazingly accurate--an old evolutionary trait]
I'd think more of a statistical one.
Arti
The scary thing about TMI was the sheer and amazing incompetence displayed by the people running the plant.
Pro Nukes say "see the problem wasn't the nuclear reactor, it was just not run like it should have been."
Anti Nukes say "see, the problem is the nuclear reactor - we can't count on people to run them like they should be run..."
Personally, I'd like to see solar panels on my roof, but I looked into it recently and we're a long way from decent pricing on solar. Maybe someday.
Talk about the market failing to get it right!. If this country had spent one third the funds we have sent to opec 'friends' for oil on sel sufficiency our dollar would be way stronger. The UP and BN were both rumoured to be interested in electrification some years back but then oil prices plummeted as a result of the Gulf War and interest faded. Meanwhile tonnage increases every year but so does the price of diesel fuel.
[Talk about the market failing to get it right!. If this country had spent one third the funds we have sent to opec 'friends' for oil on sel sufficiency our dollar would be way stronger.]
Seems to me the market got it *way* right--companies searched for oil, found it, and the price plummeted as a result.
The only way we could achieve energy sufficiency without raising costs significantly would be to build more nuclear plants, and that's not politically possible. Subsidies or requirements to use costlier energy sources like solar energy or ethanol would drive up the cost of American products, and drive down the cost of the dollar as a result.
For those who haven't lived in small town America I'd like to think how much closer we'd be or how much less petroleum we'd be using if people would take a 5 or l0 minute walk for their two-bit errands instead of taking their cars everywhere; not to mention goofy kids constantly cruising. Of course when I lived in NYC more transit workers drove their cars when they could have ridden train or bus on a pass. Oh well.Convenience at any price. Then there are things like all the PRR freights that used to be electric, same line, same wires, diesel freights. On Amtrak I THINK diesels replace electrics west of Philly. They all do it so more and more foreign oil; good for the oil companies.In the long run we'll all pay for this.
[For those who haven't lived in small town America I'd like to think how much closer we'd be or how much less petroleum we'd be using if people would take a 5 or l0 minute walk for their two-bit errands instead of taking their cars everywhere; not to mention goofy kids constantly cruising. Of course when I lived in NYC more transit workers drove their cars when they could have ridden train or bus on a pass. Oh well.Convenience at any price. Then there are things like all the PRR freights that used to be electric, same line, same wires, diesel freights. On Amtrak I THINK diesels replace electrics west of Philly. They all do it so more and more foreign oil; good for the oil companies.In the long run we'll all pay for this.]
It's amazing, isn't it? People will take their cars to go from one end of the driveway to another. That's not true in Europe, where gas taxes are exhorbitant.
But the thing that really gets to me is those 10 MPG SUV's. People say they care about the environment, but apparently care so little about global warming that they drive giant Jeeps to the shopping mall!
Depends what you mean by "right." I would say that our environment, and our health, has suffered quite a bit for our choice. And now we have an atmosphere with a lot more CO2 in it than we used to have. We'll see in 20 years or so what the market's definition of right gets us.
[Personally, I'd like to see solar panels on my roof, but I looked into it recently and we're a long way from decent pricing on solar. Maybe someday.]
I've been hearing promises that solar panels would become economical for 40 years now!
Price per kWh has come down by about a factor of 10 or more. It actually IS getting close.
The electric utility makes no money from a solar panel on your roof. Coincidence...? :)
[Well, not quite. Although I am adamantly anti-nuclear(an argument for another forum), there is a huge electrical potential in simply more efficient use of what we have. Frinstane, have you compared an electronic ballast "T-8" 48 inch fluorescent to an old style magnetic T-12? Ballast 30 % better tube 20 % less juice AND 20 % more light output. Typically 2 or 3 tubes replace four old tubes. Though much has been done there is a huge area out there not yet retrofitted. Item two, in some limited commercial settings heat exchangers have been set up to use waste heat from the refrigeration units to heat water(ice'maker powers dishwasher). If we ever set this up for homes
(most newer homes have water piped to the fridge anyway for the ice making function), we could see another jump in efficiency. And remember when PRR used electrics for freight? They had generating capacity at a dam on the Susquehanna IIRC the freight motors are gone (dumb politics). The other issue raised has to do with which generating method is able to get away with dirty processes--see current news about over the road diesel truck fuel.]
Not to mention no flicker. But this wasn't my point. My point was that with an essentially fixed hydropower and nuclear capability, moving to mass transit doesn't change the degree to which we can take advantage of these resources.
The example of reuse of a waste product is up in westchester. They are using the methane gas waste from the sewage plant to power a fuel cell generating electricity instead of flaring it off. Look at the benifits. Reduced polution and a subzero polution electric supply
Energy loss in electrical transmission is small. Energy loss in electrical generation is not, assuming we are talking about a heat engine using fossil fuels. So we could try to switch to fuel cells at the power plant.
But a big advantage of fuel cells is that they are the type of technology which can be effectively scaled down in size. Liquid fuels, be they alcohols, hydrogen, CNG, or gasoline, have a lot more energy per kilo than batteries do at this point - and battery technology is not advancing *that fast*. So it would be more efficient to put the fuel in the car then to put in a battery that your car has to carry everywhere. Also, lightweight battery technology is $$$ and won't get as cheap as lead acid batteries for a long time. Furthermore, most batteries are made of rather nasty stuff, environmentally speaking.
The great thing is that the hybrid technology now breaking through in cars will work out a lot of bugs for an eventual fuel cell car - electric transmission, etc. And fuel cells are getting a lot of research now.
Personally, not really knowing the numbers, I think Larry's point is correct - electric cars as the term is used now (an electric motor, a big battery, and an extension cord) are stupid. They simply move the pollution problem elsewhere. And it seems likely that an electric car emits more CO2 per mile traveled than a modern, fuel efficient (non SUV) conventional car, even given that some power in the US is nuclear or hydro.
[And it seems likely that an electric car emits more CO2 per mile traveled than a modern, fuel efficient (non SUV) conventional car, even given that some power in the US is nuclear or hydro. ]
So you saying that modern car converts fuel to motion power more efficiently than a power plant > electric car?
Arti
Not quite. But what someone else here was saying is that since hydro and nuclear are not expanding in capacity in N. America, if you increase electric power usage, you cause more fossil fuels to be burned. Right now hydro and nuclear produce all they can (given the current and fixed capacity) and the variable amount above that will be fossil fuel. If you snap your fingers and 10% of the cars in the country go electric, that increases electricity demand A LOT. The increase would be generated with fossil fuels.
My statement was about CO2, so it would depend on which fossil fuel. If it were coal, there is a lot more CO2 produced per unit of energy, than gasoline. If it were natural gas, it would be a less CO2 compared to gasoline. I am not sure, but I am guessing that a lot more coal-fired capacity is going on-line these days than gas. So I think if we we assume a coal fired electric plant powering up your electric car vs. a new, efficient gasoline internal combustion engine, i'm betting against the electric car - I think it would produce more CO2 per mile.
If we assume a natural gas power plant, I think the the electric car would be better. And if it was an oil power plant, I think the inefficiency of the internal combustion engine would catch up to it - the electric car would probably be a bit better. But a hybrid would be much better!!!
If we had any insight at all, we would be pushing coal to natural gas conversions and hybrid cars HARD. I imagine in 25 years we will judge the decisions being made today, and the folks in the US Senate, very harshly.
But coal, shale will probably last much longer than oli, gas, don't you thin so?
Arti
Coal will certainly be around a lot longer than petroleum. (Someone said something to me a long time ago that I think is very true. The last thing we should do with petroleum is burn it! As a chemist, I have to agree - petroleum is the starting material for many many useful products). Natural gas is a little fuzzier. I think known reserves of coal are far greater than known reserves of natural gas, at least those reserves currently considered economically useful. However, natural gas is not really used in the same way that petroleum is. There is currently not really an international infrastructure for natural gas; in the mideast, i think it's mostly burned off as waste (truly an environmentally bad idea!). So I do not think that natural gas has really been looked for in the way that the other fossil fuels have been.
Actually there is definitely more natural gas than coal - perhaps 100 times more. But the vast majority of it is in the form of methane hydrates, lying around at the bottom of the ocean. No one has any real idea how to use this at this point. And there is a significant danger in it. Methane is a greenhouse gas, just as CO2 is. The methane hydrates at the bottom of the ocean are not in a terribly stable state. So a big attempt to mine the stuff might recover a small amount of it for economic use while disturbing a lot of it which would be released into the atmosphere and act as a greenhouse gas. That would not be good.
So if we assume the current economics will still apply, coal will be around longer than natural gas. But I bet we find a lot more natural gas. And if we are still relying this heavily on fossil fuels, particularly coal, when we run out of petroleum, we are big big trouble.
What about oil-shale AFAIK US has huge deposits of it?
Arti
"Also electrification of the Oyster Bay and Port Jefferson branches of the LIRR has not taken place. The OB line's poor service testifies to the power of area NIMBY's, who've opposed everything from mass transit and road improvements, to supermarkets and shopping centers."
Actually with the new tri-levels the Oyster Bay Line is a more modern branch than any of the electric line. The poor service on that line is not because its diesel, nor because of NIMBY's, (an extremely overused word in SubTalk) but because its a long North/South route in mid Nassau. After Mineola you still have a long route without going any further out on the island. The West Hempstead, Long Beach, and Far Rockaway Branches are the same way and they are electric. None of them have one seat rides to Penn either. They normally go to Flatbush. If I lived in Roslyn, Glen Cove, Oyster Bay and wanted a fast train ride into the city I think I'd drive to Port Washington. By the way, the station I normally use is Mineola and I usually go out of my way to get an Oyster Bay Train rather than a standing-room-only Ronkonkoma Train or a pretty crowded Huntington Train. Even with the old diesels I still preferred the ride.
Now on the silly side-how many people take the OB line to Locust Valley when they're really going to Locust Manor and whats there facial expression when they get off???
Happened to read he's Senate run ad. He proposes a 2nd Av subway using his patented rubber wheel "Bullet Trains". Anyone know what they are.
Also he has a "revolutionary" diet plan, I could see how this could ease the overcrowding on Lex :-)
Arti
"... patented rubber wheel 'Bullet Trains'. Anyone know what they are."
Incompatible with all existing NYCTA trains and tracks, making the sharing of cars and through-routing impossible. :^)
Oh, he also wants to convert rest of the subway and commuter rail. Overall the whole ad is quite amusing.
Arti
Abe Hirschfeld is a wealthy eccentric. He has run for too many offices to keep track of. He even owned the New York Post for a short time. At least he's adding some unintentional comic relief to the election.
The 'Rubber Bullet Trains' is the idea he's come up with so he has something to do when he's eventually put in the rubber room.
-Hank
He would make papers more fun to read, if he ever gets elected someplace high enough:-)
Arti
I looked up the patent, it's actually a tilting train. That would be fun speeding through IRT curves at 50 MPH :-)
Arti
The LIRR has posted the new schedules effective May 22 on the MTA Website. There are a number of schedule changes, including increased Montalk service for the weekend, and a trackwork schedule for the OB branch. But I don't see any increase in DM usage; there's still none on weekends. Perhaps all qualified DM engineers work a M-F schedule?!? I know that DMs are used on diesel runs to/from Jamaica on weekends, but has anyone ridden a DM through to Penn Station on a weekend that was not on the public schedule?
I would imagine that the LIRR has rearranged the schedules so that they can put in some secret runs of DMs, the easy way to find them is to check all branch line schedules and identify the connecting train. If connecting train is only in the City Zone schedule and the one for the train you're looking at, than it is a train that only goes between NYP and Jamaica, which will be replaced with a dual mode before the schedule change, and will be shown in the next change.
They should make the 9:02 out of Babylon a DM into Penn Station. It's a regular Bilevel now (I THINK), one of the last to give up the MP-75s (I will refrain from maligning them...)
Wayne
"but has anyone ridden a DM through to Penn Station on a weekend that was not on the public schedule?"
Two weeks ago when they were working on the signals outside of Hicksville they were running dual modes on the Ronkonkoma Line going from Penn to Babylon on the South Shore then to the Main Line via the central line track.
"but has anyone ridden a DM through to Penn Station on a weekend that was not on the public schedule?"
Two weeks ago when they were working on the signals outside of Hicksville they were running dual modes on the Ronkonkoma Line going from Penn to Babylon on the South Shore then to the Main Line via the central line track. This was on the weekend and not on the schedule.
It is very clear under Mayor Daley (although not necessarily under every potential leader) that Chicago's governance is more effective than NY's. I do not mean this as a criticism of Giuliani by the way. I think he has been a very superior Mayor in many ways (although this has been achieved in part through his tenacious stubborness and narrow-mindedness which sometimes are a real problem as well.)
Chicago is not overly burdened by state-dominated public authorities. Chicago is left alone to manage its own affairs free of state interference to a degree that NYC can only dream of.
The Chicago airports are run directly by the City as a Department of City government. The County, not the City, is responsible for providing public health services, thus relieving the City of a messy and expensive obligation. The Board of Education is a separate corporate entity that levies its own taxes (although the City has now largely taken over control of the schools and is making an attempt to improve them.)
This system works very well in many ways, although it tolerates overt corruption in ways and degrees that would not be tolerated in NY. This does not mean that there is less corruption in NY. I think the opposite. In Chicago, since there is accountability, the corruption essentially is in the form of overcharging for goods and services provided. However, the goods and services are delivered. In NY, where the corruption is more insidious, there is actually less pressure for the goods and services to be delivered in exchange for the payment. In NY, I think that money is often paid without the City getting anything at all for it. It has ceased to be "how much can I get away with charging" and actually become "how much can I get without having to provide anything in exchange?"
[It is very clear under Mayor Daley (although not necessarily under every potential leader) that Chicago's governance is more effective than NY's. I do not mean this as a criticism of Giuliani by the way. I think he has been a very superior Mayor in many ways (although this has been achieved in part through his tenacious stubborness and narrow-mindedness which sometimes are a real problem as well.)
Chicago is not overly burdened by state-dominated public authorities. Chicago is left alone to manage its own affairs free of state interference to a degree that NYC can only dream of.
The Chicago airports are run directly by the City as a Department of City government. The County, not the City, is responsible for providing public health services, thus relieving the City of a messy and expensive obligation. The Board of Education is a separate corporate entity that levies its own taxes (although the City has now largely taken over control of the schools and is making an attempt to improve them.)
This system works very well in many ways, although it tolerates overt corruption in ways and degrees that would not be tolerated in NY. This does not mean that there is less corruption in NY. I think the opposite. In Chicago, since there is accountability, the corruption essentially is in the form of overcharging for goods and services provided. However, the goods and services are delivered. In NY, where the corruption is more insidious, there is actually less pressure for the goods and services to be delivered in exchange for the payment. In NY, I think that money is often paid without the City getting anything at all for it. It has ceased to be "how much can I get away with charging" and actually become "how much can I get without having to provide anything in exchange?"]
I'm not particularly familiar with the current government of Chicago, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I wouldn't hold Giuliani's pigheadness against him, though. It's necessary to get anything done in an environment where the State has arrogated most political power. One of his remarkable characteristics is his ability to jawbone special interests over which he has no power. It's Melville's law of loose and fast fish: people always scream when you take stuff away from them, but any good Mayor has to do that as things now stand.
Things get done in Chicago because in general, you only have to bribe one person, and you can figure out who it is. Not so in NYC. Everyone has a veto, so everyone demands a cut, and no one has an incentive to moderate their demands to the point where the total of the demands is affordable.
Here's a couple little tidbits that illustrate how NIMBY's are dealt with by the City of Chicago:
The Nature Museum recently opened in Lincoln Park on the north side of Chicago. Prior to the museum being constructed, the site was the location of a rather dilapidated Park District maintenance building. This building also happened to be home to several dozen stray cats that were being fed by local residents.
When plans were announced that the maintenance building would be torn down to make way for the museum, the local neighborhood groups demanded that the city find shelters for all the cats before demolition proceeded on the building.
City Hall's response? At around 7:00 one morning, a Park District employee enters the building and gasses all the cats. The demolition soon proceeds.
* * * * *
On a much larger scale, there's always the legend surrounding the opening of the Santitary and Ship Canal, the world's largest civil engineering feat at that time and the means by which the Chicago River would be reversed.
The objective? To send all the city's waste water into the Mississippi River system rather than into Lake Michigan, the source of Chicago's drinking water.
The state of Missouri, to be at the recieving end of Chicago's sewage, soon realized what Chicago was planning and filed suit in federal court to stop the opening of the canal. So, at the break of dawn on January 2, 1900, a small group of canal trustees went to a small wooden dam that was holding back the waters of the Chicago River from the newly-completed canal. Without even informing the governor of Illinois, they set the dam on fire and posed for photographs in front of the blaze. They then called in a dredge, which completed the work by noon. At that point the Chicago River became the world's first river to flow away from its mouth.
(Source: City of the Century: The Epic of Chicago and the Making of America by Donald L. Miller. Excellent book that reads better than most fiction!)
Sixty years later one of Chicago's most famous architects, Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe, was quoted as saying "Don't Talk. Build." It's a philosophy that Chicago fully embraced, as the city seems to enjoy a massive public works project every few years the way some people enjoy a big fat cigar and a dry martini every so often.
And it continues...
Just recently the city announced plans to build two additional terminals at O'Hare, and the local rumor mill has it that a backroom deal has been made with Governor Ryan to include an additional runway as part of the project, suburban NIMBY's be damned.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm printing this post out to put on my wall in the office -- right next to the Dilbert cartoons that sum up life working for the City of New York.
[Things get done in Chicago because in general, you only have to bribe one person, and you can figure out who it is. Not so in NYC. Everyone has a veto, so everyone demands a cut, and no one has an incentive to moderate their demands to the point where the total of the demands is affordable.]
I agree 100%. Not sure what can be done about it, though--the City gave away so much in the sixties and seventies, the Port Authority has become a political pawn, and the various divisions of the MTA seem to be at least as balkanized as the private railroads were.
Before you canonize Richard II you might want to look at some of the service cuts at CTA in the last few yerars. Chicago just like NYC is the only major economic engine in a state full of people who don't like urban dwellers. Thus a Republican governor--and way more money per rider for suburban Metra services than CTA within the city.
Do you think that Mayor Daley is somehow answerable for the state's indifference to the CTA? I think that Illinois has the indifference to inner-city transit needs writ even larger than NY. But what can the city of Chicago really do about it? This Mayor has a good old boy relationship with Governor Ryan, which has lead to quite a bit of infrastructure spending in the City and elsewhere (this is the "Illinois First" pork barrel.)
All in all, its as good as Chicago is going to get. Don't forget that Chicago's population position relative to the remainder of Illinois has deteriorated far more notably than NYC's relative to NYS. Chicago's share of Illinois' population is now probably only about 22%, and it is surrounded by largely Republican suburbs who are hostile to the City, and not for the nicest of reasons. In this regard, NYC with about 40% of NYS's population, suburbs that are not as hostile, and some fair size upstate cities interested in transit funding themselves, is actually in a better relative position than Chicago.
All in all, its as good as Chicago is going to get. Don't forget that [Chicago's population position relative to the remainder of Illinois has deteriorated far more notably than NYC's relative to NYS.
Chicago's share of Illinois' population is now probably only about 22%, and it is surrounded by largely Republican suburbs who are hostile to the City, and not for the nicest of reasons. In this
regard, NYC with about 40% of NYS's population, suburbs that are not as hostile, and some fair size upstate cities interested in transit funding themselves, is actually in a better relative position than
Chicago.]
I'm not so sure if New York encounters any less hostility from its suburbs than Chicago does from its suburbs. New York's city/suburb relationship is rather complicated on account of two factors. First of all, the dislike is a two-way street. Many suburbanites fear and sometimes hate the city, though probably fewer than in the recent past. On the other hand, many city residents have nothing but scorn for the suburbs, regarding their residents (to use one of my favorite lines) as three-toothed hillbilles who marry their 12-year-old cousins. I do not believe that Chicago residents, by and large, have such a low view of the suburbs. Secondly, state boundaries add a layer of complexity. A majority of New York's suburban residents live in other states, mostly New Jersey with some in Connecticut and a few in Pennsylvania. Some of Chicago's suburban residents live in Indiana or Wisconsin, of course, but the large majority are in Illinois.
I do not believe that Chicago residents, by and large, have such a low view of the suburbs.
Yes, in fact we do. :-)
Most of us consider the suburbs as nothing more than self-absorbed parasites that suck people, money and jobs away from the city while contributing nothing in return. On the other hand, most suburbanites regard Chicago as a vile cesspool of welfare dependency and gang warfare.
A few years ago, back in far simpler times when the region only had two area codes (312 for the city and 708 for suburbs), a popular item in the city was a black baseball cap with "(312)" embroidered prominently on the front, with a smaller "(708)" on the back with a red slash through it. Even today, the suburbanites who make their once-a-year trip into the city to visit the Hard Rock Cafe are derisively referred to as "708-ers". You could probably build a 20-foot fence between the city and suburbs, and it would be years before anybody noticed it was there.
Of course, I make no secret of which side of the fence I stand on. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Let's remove that extra layer of complexity. The northern boundary of Westchester looks pretty good to me as the place to put the re-located NY/NJ border.
(Let's remove that extra layer of complexity. The northern boundary of Westchester looks pretty good to me as the place to put the re-located NY/NJ border).
I'd include the entire Metropolitan Transportation District, but I agree. In any event, there is hope. The Times Union is reporting a rebellion to unseat Sheldon Silver.
I know this is wishful fantasizing, but I envision a new state comprised of the following areas:
New York - the five boroughs, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Orange, Ulster, Sullivan, Rockland, Nassau and Suffolk counties.
New Jersey - Hudson, Union, Essex, Bergen, Pasaaic, Sussex, Warren, Somerset, Hunterdon, Morris, Middlesex, Mercer, Monmouth and Ocean counties.
Connecticut - Fairfield County.
Pennsylvania - Pike, Monroe and Wayne counties.
Of course, the chance that this ever would happen is almost as bad as the chance that there'll ever be a Second Avenue subway.
You're right. What's the point of a small dream. If we're going to dream, we might as well dream big.
I have recently read that the nation's fastest growing city is building a light rail system to transport it's exploding population.
The city proper is quite large(on the scale of Los Angeles) with a population comparable to Philadelphia(it will definately be larger than Philadelphia within the next few years) so I wonder how well do you think such a system would serve the city. That number of people spread out over that much area would deserve several lines, right?
What do you think?
I've been to Phoenix, and the amount of sprawl in that city is staggering. What's worse is that it doesn't show any signs of letting up. We counted 50 miles on the odometer to get from our hotel on the north end of town to the southern edge of the sprawl on our way to Tucson. 50 miles! That's almost as bad as Chicago's sprawl, but with a fraction of the population.
The few people on this board who insist on defending suburban sprawl should take a good look at Phoenix: The city is literally a rapdily-growing maligancy, with mile after mile of poorly constructed cookie-cutter subdivisions, continuous strip malls with typical "big box" retailers, with acres and acres of parking. Every major street is 6-8 lanes wide, and yet the traffic is still horrendous and the air quality is a joke. What they call "downtown" consists of a few bland office buildings surrounded by parking lots.
And yet somehow its inhabitants are convinced that they've found (wheeze) paradise on earth. You'd think they've been brainwashed into thinking that there is no greater good in life than having a Wal-Mart and an Olive Garden down the street, but having to sit in traffic for an hour just to get there. Scottsdale isn't much better, the only difference being that the strip malls and subdivisions cater to a slightly higher income bracket. The only good thing I can say about the area is that once you get beyond the sprawl, what's left of the natural scenery is incredible.
Light rail is probably a good idea, but IMO, it's too little too late. It's like prescribing Tylenol for a brain tumor. Phoenix has become the way it is because of some fundamental decisions made in laying out the street pattern and the zoning, and I suspect that no amount of token efforts to establish a light rail system will make much of a difference. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I suspect this system will become like MARTA in Atlanta: A fleet of shiny new rail cars and attractive stations, but mostly running around the city empty while people continue to inhale exhaust fumes on I-17.
Just my thoughts.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[I've been to Phoenix, and the amount of sprawl in that city is staggering. What's worse is that it doesn't show any signs of letting
up. We counted 50 miles on the odometer to get from our hotel on the north end of town to the southern edge of the sprawl on our way to Tucson. 50 miles! That's almost as bad as Chicago's sprawl, but with a fraction of the population.]
Fifty miles isn't *that* bad. Some months ago, I drove from my house in Medford, on Long Island, to East Brunswick, New Jersey. This was all within the NYC metro area, reasonably close to an east-west traverse. Medford and So. Brunswick are close to but not at the edge of the area. The trip was (IIRC) 95 miles each way.
[The few people on this board who insist on defending suburban sprawl should take a good look at Phoenix: The city is literally a rapdily-growing maligancy, with mile after mile of poorly constructed cookie-cutter subdivisions, continuous strip malls with typical "big box" retailers, with acres and acres of parking. Every major street is 6-8 lanes wide, and yet the traffic is still horrendous and the air quality is a joke. What they call "downtown" consists of a few bland office buildings surrounded by parking lots.]
I've never been to Phoenix, and admittedly it sounds a bit over the top, but consider this: thousands and thousands of people *want* to live there. None of us has any right whatsoever to tell them "Sorry, Phoenix is too sprawled, you can't move there." If that's what people want, and population growth statistics make that abundantly clear, that's what they can have.
I don't understand why you think that each individual has the right to live wherever he wants, no matter what. The natural consequence of land use regulation is that there is a maximum aggregate occupancy for each jurisdiction with such regulation.
As KMA seems to be pointing out, there are plenty of ways that government has been encouraging the type of development that Phoenix typifies, ever since WWII. I'm not saying people don't want their own house, etc. But when all the houses that are built are built in places like phoenix, people are going to mover to places like phoenix. And houses are not all built that way simply because of demand. Crabgrass Frontier has lots of good stuff about how gov't has encouraged suburbia.
But if you take it as a given that people want to live in places like phoenix, that's fine. But how do you feel about the taxes you pay to support their lifestyle? Phoenix is a ridiculously energy intensive place, so thank uncle sam for keeping oil cheap for their sake. And untold billions have been spent bringing them water so they can grow bluegrass in the desert (and increase the humidity, negating the reason that many moved there originally). And how many of your tax dollars have built their highways?
And that leaves out all the costs of the pollution that they are producing down there. I wonder how much more CO2 the average phoenix resident produces than the average NY resident.
If they orient the system towards the Del Webb Sun City retirement community on the northwest side of the metropolitan Phoenix area, they might find a more receptive target for the light rail system, since rush hour traffic in the area is getting as bad as Los Angeles or Houston for drivers 30 or 40 years younger.
...I heard about this flim flam scam being proposed last month on talk radio there when i was in phoenix arizpna........
I do like the PCC trolley car and antique bus on display downtown !!
So when does this so called construction start ?? do they have a website on this ?? hold your breath ??
...I heard about this flim flam scam being proposed last month on talk radio there when i was in phoenix arizpna........
I do like the PCC trolley car and antique bus on display downtown !!
So when does this so called construction start ?? do they have a website on this ?? hold your breath ??
...I heard about this flim flam scam being proposed last month on talk radio there when i was in phoenix arizona.....
I do like the PCC trolley car and antique bus on display downtown !!
So when does this so called construction start ?? do they have a website on this ?? hold your breath ??
Here's the problem I see with the new rapid transit systems in growing cities is that they were put in after the city was basically built.
As I've always said, the reason the systems of New York, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago work is because they were built right along with the city.
NYC in particular grew outwards in all directions(even New Jersey) as a result of rail growing around it.
Atlanta, Dallas, Los Angeles and now Phoenix have new systems built long after the cities were modernly established. Plus, they came after the advent of the car.
While such systems certainly benefit these cities, you'll never see www.atlsubway.org. These systems have no history, no real meaning in many instances and IMHO, were built simply because "other large cities have subways too".
That sound weird?
One can say that New York's subway was built because London and Boston, among others, had subways. The subway was built for the same reason as in these new cities: Streets were congested, and travel was slow.
You may consider the original 1904 IRT line to have history, but in 1904, it was no more historic than the DC Red Line in 1976. Nothing comes instantly.
Very true, but you have to remember that the Els, which caused the expansion of NYC up to the Harlem River and into the Bronx, were a couple of decades old when the IRT subway was built.
[As I've always said, the reason the systems of New York, Philadelphia, Boston and Chicago work is because they were built right along with the city.
Atlanta, Dallas, Los Angeles and now Phoenix have new systems built long after the cities were modernly established. Plus, they came after the advent of the car.]
Yet it's possible that future growth in these newer cities will follow the light rail lines. That's happened with MAX in Portland, although regional land-use restrictions mean that the area's development might be different than in other Sunbelt cities.
Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago were established cities when underground/elevated railways were built. Boston built the first subway in America in 1897, simply to get the streetcars off Boylston Street. It was said that prior to the subway opening, you could walk from Scollay Square to the Public Garden on the car tops. Philadelphia got the Market St. line in 1906, Chicago didn't open a subway (The L was king) until the 1940's.
All 3 cities were long established when underground rail transit was constructed.
Your arguement does not allow for the facts.
the problem with phoenix is like what I see with Salt Lake City Utah Denver Colorado where you have a short
""trolley museum nostalga ride "" downtown only ( not just in los angeles ) .....
Also this short ( usually built in the areas where people dont go ) like Miami Florida etc........
Then the local government braggs about how this proves why everyone should have filled out thier census forms &
or some other BULL like that !!.........On opening day like GIANTS STADIUM in san francisco the free ride (S) are
packed with riders using breakdown failure public transit .... then a month later .....................a very small low ridership failure(S) and everyone rides to work bumper
to bumper .....!!!( traffic jams on highways and expressways ) ........etc........oh what the hell i like rail transit !!
The Phoenix Street Railway System will begin reconstruction in 2 years with the first line 22 miles opening in 2006 or 2007. the original system operated from 1882 to 1947.
i just checked ch 25 wnye-tv's website and found that transit transit will be in its regular timeslot on saturday may 27 at 3:30pm... as always do not eat a heavy meal before watching it
After a ten-year battle, agreement was reached yesterday to build the third branch of the "Old Colony" commuter rail lines to Greenbush. Here are the details from the Boston Globe.
Agreement includes a $41 million payoff the rich people of Hingham.
Now if we could just payoff Astoria residents at a similar amount, we just might be able to get the N to LaGuardia.
Larry that is unfortunately the only way to placate a NIMBY - PAY IT OFF. All the NIMBY cares about is his investment; everything he gets back over and above that is gravy.
wayne
I couldn't post this before because the file size was waaaaaaay too big, but I've reduced its size for all to see. Here it is.
It's from my Transit Pictures 2 page, now uploaded into the new space.
white box.. red x..
yep, THAT was worth the wait..
Can't see the sign...I'm getting the popular Broken Link mark. Can you save it as a jpeg and beam it over to me?
Walsh'
www.forgotten-ny.com
Click here to see it.
Go! It's picture #05.
The Star-Ledger has an article on the low initial ridership on the HHLR: http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/f82696.html
I am sure that it is well understood that the present public transport arrangemets do not meet the needs of this major international airport. I agree that a "real rail system direct to the airport is the best solution but the problem is which terminal?
A light rail system linking all terminals is a sensible solution for internal travel needs, and provided the journey time to Jamaca is not excessive should provide external needs provided easy access is possible.
London's Heathrow has four termials one to three are grouped close together and are served by one station and long walks, terminal four has a seperate station. JFK has eight widely spaced terminals.
It has been suggested in the press over here that our own British Airports Authority may take over the JFK operating agreement so you may get a Heathrow Express style service after all if things don't work out.
Simon
Swindon UK
The new airport in Hong Kong has an internal light rail system that operates on 1.1 miles of indoor track in the airport. The terminals there are VERY far aprt and need the system. The cars are automated and accelerate up to 40 mph on the indoor track. They're also free.
-Daniel
[I am sure that it is well understood that the present public transport arrangemets do not meet the needs of this major international airport. I agree that a "real rail system direct to the airport is the best solution but the problem is which terminal?
A light rail system linking all terminals is a sensible solution for internal travel needs, and provided the journey time to Jamaca is not excessive should provide external needs provided easy access is possible.
London's Heathrow has four termials one to three are grouped close together and are served by one station and long walks, terminal four has a seperate station. JFK has eight widely spaced terminals.
It has been suggested in the press over here that our own British Airports Authority may take over the JFK operating agreement so you may get a Heathrow Express style service after all if things don't work out.]
Believe me, it would be welcome! Reminds me of my proposal to give the LIRR to New Jersey Transit.
And while you're at it, perhaps you can convince Lady Thatcher to run in the next mayoral election. These days Cuba, North Korea, and New York are all that's left of the socialist world. I hear the Russians have taken to calling Moscow "New York on the Moscow."
[These days Cuba, North Korea, and New York are all that's left of the socialist world. ]
What this city need is more transparancy. This kind of socialist crap flourishes if no-one is accountable. With Internet it would be easy to post the information regarding spending public money.
Arti
Yes, all layers of government need more transparency. Even this posting forum is an indication of the future power of ordinary people sharing information directly.
Yes, it is but we haven't changed anything. We speculate on things without facts we should know as we would care. I should be able to know where our taxes went to the last cent whenever I feel like it. Right noe I know for example that MTA will spend b/w 10 - 50 M$ to rebuild the Lex station. Analogy, I know that I'll spend 100k on something a year...
Got my drift?
Arti
[What this city need is more transparancy. This kind of socialist crap flourishes if no-one is accountable. With Internet it would be easy to post the information regarding spending public money.]
We were talking about that here a while back. It's truly frustrating to see this stuff go on and know that it could end if people only knew what was happening.
Which is why officials keep the citizens in the dark, where they believe they belong.
[Which is why officials keep the citizens in the dark, where they believe they belong. ]
They shouldn't have that option.
Arti
[Which is why officials keep the citizens in the dark, where they believe they belong.]
Both the press and the citizens themselves deserve much of the blame. The press spouts endless garbage about fires, lost babies, and who's ahead in the polls, and says virtually nothing about what the issues are or where politicians stand on them. Most of the public doesn't even watch the evening news, never mind read a newspaper, and shows the same gullibility when it comes to choosing candidates that it does when buying toilet paper.
What are we to do when people can be fooled into believing that George W. Bush is a "Washington outsider"?
Maybe too many people got like me. As lifetime conservative "our people ran the country for l2 years, " but all the crap the liberals made law remained and the non-propfessional working people took the biggest beating in decades. Just that a different minority got all they wanted just like before only different causes. And I don't mean race..I mean pressure groups and rights groups; later the corporations got fatter. I must stay home on election day, I usually vote for spite. mMost of these people got apathetic at a lot younger age than I did.
Yesterday was my first day working in Jersey city, why are PATH station so windy, it seems to keep them nice and cool but its seems to almost blow people over and was spraying water from puddles onto people,
Also I brought my camera today and took some shots of HBLR if they are nice I'll scan them and post them.
I think the PATH stations are windy because ventilation towers are spaced far apart creating pockets of high pressure in the tunnel. Since wind is the result of the differance in two air pressure regions, it is probably blowing in the direction of the nearest tunnel vent. Wind could also be caused by trains pushing through the tunnel. The lack of ventilation makes each tunnel a closed system where elements such as wind and precipitation are not affected by outside forces such as vents. The displaced air has nowhere to go but in the direction of the train in front of it.
-Daniel
You get a nice breeze at 59th and Lex while waiting for the N and R.
The high speed and tight spaces in the 60th street tube makes conditions ideal for high speed winds at Lex.
I could imagine an announcement on the Lexington Av. Line approaching the station.
This is 59th Street. Transfer downstairs to the N and R. Attenetion passengers: due to tight tunnel clearance on the east side of the station, be prepared for up to gale force winds in the station.
Yes there are noticable air currents in the PATH system. You can tell that a train is coming long before you can see or hear it at some stations.
Has anyone else noticed how windy some HBLR stations can be? When I was at Exchange Place last week I needed two hands to validate my ticket because the wind was so strong (the wind made it flutter so it wouln't go straight into the machine). It seems that the wind tunnel between the buildings will be quite interesting.
My other experience with the wind is at the yet-to-be-finished Newport station. A month or two ago when I was poking around I checked it out. It was a breezy day, but the wind was not too bad from on top of one of Newport's parking garages. But down on the HBLR platform I almost had to hold on to the light pole there! I sure don't want to have to be there during a winter storm. I hope the LRVs are heavy enough not to be blown over :)
-- Dave
Well, HBLR stations may be windy because (particularly Exchange Place and Newport) are inbetween large building which have a tendancy to funnel light breezes making them into winds. The LRVs should have no problem staying upright against the wind because they are actually quite heavy. A bus has less of a chance against wind of the same strength. The LRV has it's weight evenly distributed accross six axles and have a "firm foot" of the ground.
-Daniel
Oh I'm sure the area's buildings have alot to do with the wind. What do you get when you put tall buildings along a large body of water? Windtunnel city.
I feel safe about the weight of the LRVs, I was mainly joking. And those wheel skirts may help by serving as ground effects to prevent large gusts from getting under the cars.
At least it isn't as bad as my college (Stevens Tech in Hoboken) with the 14 story main admin building on top of Castle Point. The winds are always fierce there and they actually put out ropes during the winter -- one end tied to the building, the others along the paths to the other parts of campus.
And yes as a Stevens' alum I am familiar with the family's contibutions to transit (steam boats, steam locos, the T rail, etc..)
-- Dave
Those tight cast iron tunnels have a lot to do with it. Because the wind cannot go around the tops and sides of the train, it has to go in front. You can get a similar experience standing at the Third Ave. end of the Grand Central platform on the Flushing line with a Times Square train coming through the Steinway Tunnel.
Also for some reason, the Brooklyn-bound track on the L was always good for wind at Union Square with a train coming in from Sixth Ave., and I'm sure there are other tight clearance locations that have strong wind gusts.
Northbound #2 and #3 trains push wind ahead of them at Clark Street station. You can always tell when a train's coming there - howling wheels and wind.
Wayne
A lot of stations at the end of a long river tunnel tend to be windy. The other day I waited for an uptown 'F' at East Broadway and got the wind well in advance of seeing or hearing the train. Due to a sharp curve just south of the station, you can't see the approaching train until the last few seconds.
Grand Street is similarly windy, as it's just downhill from the portal opening onto the Manhattan Bridge.
How about Broadway-Nassau Street. That's somewhat windy.
High St on the A/C......
I was at Clark Street and the wind was CONSTANT.
But I say that a walk in the park compared to the heat I've experienced in some of the stations last summer, especially
95th Street on the southern terminal end of the R line. I
actually felt like I was getting short of breath as I hurried
out of the place to open air above. Are there any other stations
that some of you have experienced that are oppressively hot?
In the summer - 42md st & Lex - 4/5/6 platform !!!
Try the canal street bridge station. When I was there 2 weeks ago I could see my own breath. It had to be 90 degrees out but it must have been 45 down there. Nice place to cool off. Wonder why its like that? Is it under the water table or something?
The canal street station on the Broadway line is not like that.
Yes , that station leaked like a sive until goo was pumped behind the walls . Geographical its a low spot , and was a swampy area in historical times. There was a pond somewhere in the area , it was filled in as New Amsterdam grew.
avid
ps
History channel has had some interesting stuff about the area a couple or three times.
".... as New Amsterdam grew."
No, it was filled in as NEW YORK grew.
Roosevelt Ave - Ususally hot in summer, but I think a Daily News article said the temperature was 100+ when the outside temp was only 94.
Any underground station where local and express trains stop is likely to have that problem.
Grand Central is a hot one too
Grand Central on the 4,5,and 6 is pretty hot, also Times Square station as well.
Also the E,F station at Lex can get pretty hot, even though it is by the east river tunnel.
What about Roosevelt Island? I was there once long time ago I remember it being cool, as if air-conditioned.
Arti
[What about Roosevelt Island? I was there once long time ago I remember it being cool, as if air-conditioned.]
Roosevelt Island might be cool because it's so deep. In addition, there aren't too many trains running through it and throwing off heat.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I think that most of the underground stations become oppresively hot during the summer and the air conditioning systems on the cars make the conditions even worse.
BMTJeff
Yup, coming back from the transit museum, Got on a Redbird at Borough Hall, went to the RailFan window, realized I forgot something and got off a Clark st. I was at the end of the platform and consent wind was coming out of the tunnel it was very strong and knocked my hat off my head!
Speaking of hats being blown off heads, I was going downstairs from the downtown local platform to the express platform at 59th Street/Lexington Av when a high gust of wind came up and blew my hat right off my head, and on to the adjacent upward escalator! I got to the bottom of the stairs and got on the escalator to retrieve my hat. When I got to the top, I just turned around and went back down the stairs. Hat stayed on during this run down the stairs.
I wish I had an anemometer to see how fast the wind was blowing!
I have a small wind-meter, next time I go to that station I might measure the wind speed. It's probably similar to the speed of the trains pushing air out, around 40mph or so.
Another windy station is Flushing on the G. Hold on to your hats on the stairs to the street! If a train is nearby, the wind goes up the stairs and will blow off your hats
It was at Clark Street last summer when I got the surprise of my life. I was standing at the end of the platform when I heard a rustle and the next thing I knew this giant rat went scurrying right my me and down the steps into the tunnel. I was shook up but one person near by said that was par for the course, that there were rats all over the place. They ever tried fumigating the stations? Fortunately, it was the only one I saw. I'm told the system is loaded with them. A bad scene. What amazed me, though, was that the creature went by me like I wasn't even there. He certainly didn't seem afraid of me, and that was not my feeling. I can tell you that.
My aunt saw a bunch of rats on the tracks at 34th Street/6th Av playing with a Coke bottle.
I've seen rats at Roosevelt Avenue.
I've also seen rats on the platform at one B-division underground station. I think it might have been Pacific Street.
That's all I remember seeing so far, thankfully.
They also exist on the elevated lines at QP. One wonders, how did they get up there!
They took the train!
Speaking of rats, I saw two pigeons (the flying rats) get on an F train at West 8th Street and get off at Kings Highway, just before the train went express to 18th Avenue. It didn't slow down until the train got to 18th Avenue.
R.M.
I guess that anything will try to ride the subway. They should have charged the pigeons with fare evasion since they didn't pay to ride the train. (Just Kidding)
BMTJeff
Number7Rider:
In New York I guess anything can happen including rats in the elevated subway stations. The next time I go to or pass through the Queensborough Plaza station I'll try to look for rats if I can. I guess rats will live anywhere including elevated subway stations.
BMTJeff
Good luck. Don't try to look too suspicious though. It's not up there in terms of the number of rats at a station, but they are there in a few numbers occassionally running along the trackbed.
Speaking of which, has anyone seen what happens when the rats make contact with the third rail? They always seem to go under it or avoid it. They must have developed the ability to detect electromagnetic force to know not to touch it.
I wonder how many rats get fried by touching the third rail?
John:
Apparentlt Number7Rider has mention that the rats have learned to crouch down while crossing underneath the third rail in order to avoid being electrocuted. The rats seem to be very smart in that regard.
BMTJeff
Do you mean Electric field or electro motive force.
probably electric field... my bad!
I saw rats on the Queens Blvd viaduct from the front window of a 7 once. They were under the tracks, but they were there.
I wonder how they get up there. Do they ever get on the trains?
The many passageways and ramps of Times Square are very popular with vermin.
There used to be a popular luncheonette on the mezzanine between the BMT and the Shuttle that no doubt attracted them.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
In 1993 I was riding the front car of a #6 train and I saw a good sized rat down on the tracks at the 103rd St. station. There was also the remains of a dead rat right on the tracks. The subway system has no shortage of these creatures.
BMTJeff
Bedford ave on the canarsie line standing on the end of the canarsie
bound platform.
[Yesterday was my first day working in Jersey city, why are PATH station so windy, it seems to keep them nice and cool but its seems to almost blow people over and was spraying water from puddles onto people.]
PATH was designed to be windy intentionally, so that the trains would draw air into the long tunnels without the need for mechanical ventilation.
I need to know something about the 63rd St connection. Not about routes or compleation
I need to know if anyone has or know where I can find a track map of it.
It would be very appreative
metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
Peter Dougherty's book has it.
-Dave
Is there any reason why the #6 is getting them and not the #5?
The #5 has the oldest redbirds, and many of them are at the near end of the lives. What will the redbirds on the #5 be replaced with? R-62As???????
Nick
My guess is: all in due time.
The information you saw about testing on the #2 and #6 is just for testing. Maybe to get operators used to operating them on different lines, or maybe to give different passengers a chance to ride them. Who knows. It's just two trains. When the rest come in I'm sure you'll see them doing duty on both the 2 and 5, as well as the 6.
This is just testing. The rumors are that the redbirds and Pelham R62s will go to Flushing, 2, 5, and 6 will get the R142s. About 400 redbirds will be left to run out of Flushing.
The 2 and 5 Lines have to be the first lines to get them because their yard (East 180 Street Yard) was overhauled just for the new cars. If any line they should be the first to get them.
E. 180th Street isn't "their" (#2 and #5 lines) yard. It's a #5 yard. Besides, the yard wasn't replaced; the maintenance shop was.
Getting back to the original question, in all likelihood the #6 line was picked instead of the #5 for two reasons, taken together: 1) A Lexington Avenue route had to be picked for the second route, and 2) The #5 shares track space on White Plains Road with the #2, so people on other lines might complain that only White Plains Roaders would get to ride the cars.
Just speculating, of course...
David
Ahhhh. I see.
atleast they didn't plop them on my line..
if anything, we want the redbirds back
1/9
The 1/9 will probably always have R62s as long as there are R-62s, because the gapfillers only line up with them. Cabs and trailers on R-142s have different door configurations from each other, both of which are different from the R62, causing major gapfiller realignment at SF, which they already did when they booted the R-21/22. The TA will worry about that in another 10 years or so.
Not only that, but the cars must operated for 30 days without any mechanical defects. Technically, the #5 does not run midnites. It is the Dyre Ave. shuttle with 5 car OPTO R62A cars. For testing purposes, the test is ran with full 10 car trains with a conductor. I'm sure it will be some time before the cars are ran in OPTO service.
"The 2 and 5 Lines have to be the first lines to get them"
Why? I think that you need to look at the issues from an operational standpoint. Since the 2 fleets (R-142 & R-142A) will likely not be compatible. Not a great move if true. However, you have 400 cars of one type and 680 of another. Obviously you need to put the 400 car fleet into a service that will require approximately that number of cars. I think for that reason, the Pelham line makes sense. The Pelham line has easy access to E-180th Street for maintenance that needs to be done there (HVAC). Also keep in mind that it'll likely be the pelham R-62As that move over to the #7 line.
About when will the R62A's begin to show up on the #7? And what are the proposed ways to get there from the Pelham (Pelham, to Woodlawn branch, to Concourse branch, to Sea Beach, to Flushing???) Sorry.
pelham bay via number 4 right into Concourse yard. via the D line thru stillwell ave thru N cutoff up the N to North of Queensboro Plaza to connect with the 7 line
Nah, they don't need to do that. 6 Line to 4 Line to D Line to 2nd Avenue in Manhattan reverse to 63 Street tunnel (Lexington) reverse to 57 Street/7th Avenue and north to Queensboro Plaza.
[Nah, they don't need to do that. 6 Line to 4 Line to D Line to 2nd Avenue in Manhattan reverse to 63 Street tunnel (Lexington) reverse to 57 Street/7th Avenue and north to Queensboro Plaza.]
If you have the extra crew or time change 2nd Ave to 34th St and 6th Ave
My friend has chosen to quit the bet, neither of us looses or gains money. Thus, the event we've all been waiting for is cancelled.
This morning on the downtown local 6th ave. track at w4 I saw an out of service R32 train with all different signange. R, E, and one car was completely decked out with JFK airport express. Was someone playing around with all the roll signs?
The R might have been from the GO this weekend.
"E" is a regular R32 haunt; and "R" is about 1/3 R32 so they're not unusual. The JFK Express signs? Somebody had to have set them to that on purpose.
Wayne
I spotted a R32 at Kings Highway on the F at about 1:00 p.m. I believe there were student Train Operators or Conductors on it. I didn't get a look at the signage on the train.
There were 3 different school cars on the road Tuesday. One on the "F"- Train operators. One on the "A"- Conductors, and one on the "D"- Conductors.
Hey Guys, I was wondering when will the next edition of the subway map will be issued?
Hey Guys, I was wondering when will the next edition of the subway map will be issued?
We know. You just said that.
My guess is in June 2000. That is when the changes in #2 and #5 rush hour service are scheculed to go into effect.
From the reaction to the change announcement that I have seen in local Bronx papers there is a possibility that it may not happen as the Local Politicians and residents in the affected areas are not thrilled about it. There have been numerous petitions going around and I heard some legal action is planned.
More to come I am sure.
What changes are planned in the 2/5 rush-hour service?
Just curious,
Tim
According to a number of people on this board, the changes can be summarized as follows:
Rush Hour in the Bronx:
2: Express from 180 to 149-3rd Ave.
5: Express from 180 to 149-3rd Ave. if its terminal is 238-WPR
5: Local from 180 to 149-3rd Ave. if its terminal is Dyre Avenue.
I just discovered what the largest single item in my internet cache was. Give up? Well its the SubTalk main page and it weighs in at over a meg. I thought I had it set to 2 weeks, but it might be a month. Gives you all an idea as to how busy this MB really is.
I was also reading e-mails from the Conrail-Talk site and some guy just started a NYC Subway list at onelist.com Go look it up and sign up. Maybe it won't die like Off-Subtalk did.
-Keep the dream alive.
Mike,
What's the URL for the Conrail-Talk site?
it dosen't have a site, I don't think. Try sending a message to conrail-talk@dsop.com with subscribe in the subject.
just a reminder about this friday's era meeting
which will have a slide show and a lecture about
hblr
from one of the light rail staff... plus movie films
of public service trolleys in weehawken, hoboken,
and jersey city from the 1940's and perhaps
earlier... there is a remote possibility that the
hblr staff will bring a light rail vehicle for
closer inspection...
please be reminded that the new york division
reserves the right to exclude from any meeting
anyone engaging in disruptive behavior
Disruptive behavior shall include but not be limited
to the possession of alcoholic beverages, illegal
drugs, illegal weapons or any other illegal
substance or item
thus to avoid being turned away at the door, do not
bring any flame throwers, gas chain saws, gas barbeques, cuban cigars, endangered species, illegal aliens, vodka, bourbon, gin, rum, or poker to the meeting
HeyPaul,
You forgot that many of the ERA participants ARE endangered species.
A few illegal aliens too. By the way, will the reporter from the Jersey Journal be there to misinterpret things?
Joe Caronetti
joe... we obviously differ on what we are willing to do for attention... i won't let the truth stand in the way in my search for recognition...
What about Dominican Cigars? Are they exempt from ERA rules and regulations??
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug and Paul,
Could either of you please give me information on how to join the ERA and where their meetings are? I would love to join them and attend these lectures/tours etc...
-Harry
I believe they meet the third Friday of every month at The College of Insurance (never heard of it till I attended my first ERA meeting). It is located on Chambers Street between Greenwich St. and West Side Highway (It's the funky looking building you'll see as you walk west from the A/C Chambers Street train station.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, it's 109 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Streets.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
101 Murray Street, not 109.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
It doesn't matter, it's the last building currently addressed to Murray Street. Eventually that will change as the North Neighborhood in BPC becomes more developed.
Okay, I would also like to join the ERA and I plan on attending. The college of Insurance is one block away from my school! (Stuyvesant HS) and I could just walk there after shcool.
I plan on bringing a charcoal barbeque and illegal species drinking scotch and smoking dominican cigars. I will protect them with my nunchaku and and M-16 rifle. (your list of prohibited items did not include these things)
Are armored vehicles and tanks also prohibited?
-Daniel
I can say with some authority that people who bath, dress decently and do not make air compressor noises are also prohibited. They enter at there own risk. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!
The College of Insurance sub-basement is littered with the corpses of those who did not take to the warnings!
:-)
It's two blocks away. You're forgetting Warren Street.
Darn. I thought from the subject line that the meeting was going to be in one of the LRVs.
Has anyone heard anything recently about the MTA or Transit moving forward on this?? I think a study will be started soon. Where would its termnius be?? by the LIRR yards?? the Convention Center?? or where??
Rudy G. was pushing for it along with a new MSG for the Yankees. There were a number of items on the wish list. The 2nd Ave STUBway & LIRR connection to Grand Central (plus some station rehabs, etc.) are all that made the final cut. Search this site by keyword for previous post on the subject.
Mr t__:^)
The revised MTA 2000-2004 (dated April 26, 2000) contains $68 million towards Penn Station Access, Lower Manhattan Access, and #7 Extension to Javits Center Area. This is down from $75 million in the October 1999 proposal.
David
The revised MTA 2000-2004 (dated April 26, 2000) contains $68 million towards Penn Station Access, Lower Manhattan Access, and #7
Extension to Javits Center Area. This is down from $75 million in the October 1999 proposal.
It cost $30 million to add 3 escalators and an elevator to the Main St Station. The $68 million won't even get them to 8th Avenue.
I never said the money was for construction. Probably the $68 million is for planning/engineering, for all three projects.
[It cost $30 million to add 3 escalators and an elevator to the Main St Station. The $68 million won't even get them to 8th Avenue.]
Well, they COULD just punch a hole in the wall of the 8th Ave lower level, extend the #7 a little further to make a station. After all they are using the single track lower level anymore. Then they could ask for some realy big bucks to get to the Javits Center.
Nah, they ain't going to do that :-(
Mr t
[Well, they COULD just punch a hole in the wall of the 8th Ave lower level, extend the #7 a little further to make a station. After all they are using the single track lower level anymore. Then they could ask for some realy big bucks to get to the Javits Center.
Nah, they ain't going to do that :-( ]
Yup. They could also run a shuttle from Track 21 at Penn to Javits--total cost to set that up, perhaps $1 million. But that's $999 million less than they want to spend! But they'll never come up with the $1 billion, so nothing will ever get built . . .
Well, you know, one man's graft, inefficency, and waste is another man's retirement fund.
Well, you know, one man's graft, inefficiency, and waste is another man's retirement fund.
[The revised MTA 2000-2004 (dated April 26, 2000) contains $68 million towards Penn Station Access, Lower Manhattan Access, and #7 Extension to Javits Center Area. This is down from $75 million in the October 1999 proposal.]
$68 million? This is a billion dollar project!
This way they can say "We are working on it"
Hey, at that rate they'll be done in 16 years. That's 2/3 the projected time for the 2nd Ave subway.
Working on it means going on expensive vacations and buying luxury homes and cars, not to mention yachts. Meanwhile the secretary is back at the office photocopying the original 1970s studies.
It can't happen because 8th ave IND lower level is in the way. The track stubs at the western end of the Times square station right next to IND lower level.
Not true. A few months ago, I took depth measurements of both the Times Square terminal of the #7 line, and the 8th Ave./42nd Street station on the IND. Assuming that the lower level of the IND station is 20 feet below the upper level, the #7 line's stub tracks are about 40 feet lower. While I have no idea what's below the lower level of the IND (utilities, etc.) that might block westward extension of the IRT, it's not the IND station.
[While I have no idea what's below the lower level of the IND (utilities, etc.) that might block westward extension of the IRT, it's not the IND station.]
Rumor has it that underground fuel tanks at the Port Authority Bus Terminal would be in the way of any westward IRT expansion. This is just what I've heard, I certainly have no independent knowledge.
Once again, the PA blocks sensible transit expansion.
And being the PA, the only way they could be forced to take them out was if they were leaking. Even then they would use every trick in the book to delay it.
[re underground tanks at the PABT which may block the 7 line's expansion]
[Once again, the PA blocks sensible transit expansion.]
A couple of things to keep in mind:
1) I do not know for a fact that the tanks even exist. I was simply repeating what I've heard.
2) Presumably, the tanks were installed when the PABT was constructed c.1950. At the time, no one was thinking about expanding the 7 westward.
The original PABT only took up the block between 40th and 41st, so I would think if any underground tanks were put in at the time, they would have gone in beneath the bus terminal itself and not underneath 41st St.
If more tanks were added after the late-1970s expansion, that might be a different story, but as deep as the Flushing Line is at Times Square, I wouldn't think any of the tanks would be at the same level (about 45-50 feet below ground).
Actually, I was kidding. If the tanks are really there, I'm sure they didn't put them there just to block subway expansion.
The expansion of the #7 line to the west side -- and other transit improvments -- are in fact blocked by the new hospital wings over the FDR drive -- and other health care spending.
How do these wings over the FDR affect expansion to the West Side?
[How do these [hosptial] wings over the FDR affect expansion to the West Side?]
The city's enormous levels of health care spending mean that there are inadequate funds for almost everything else, transportation included.
[I took depth measurements of both the Times Square terminal of the
#7 line, and the 8th Ave./42nd Street station on the IND ... the #7 line's stub tracks are about 40 feet lower.]
Todd, Sorry I forgot that you did that. It would be interesting to discover the truth about these two often claimed rumors:
1. The #7 goes right up the wall of the 8th Ave lower level
2. PA tanks are blocking the way West
It would seem that #1 is incorrect. If so it would seem even easier for the #7 to duck under the 8th Ave & have the esclator go right past the lower level.
Mr t__:^)
[It would seem that #1 is incorrect. If so it would seem even easier for the #7 to duck under the 8th Ave & have the esclator go right past the lower level.]
What difference does it make? The lower level isn't used anyway, hence the rumors that Mayor Hylan put it there to block the #7 from expanding to the river. It could even prove an asset depending on the route they choose.
This came off another list, thought you'd get a little laugh out of it.
Norfolk Southern's Top Ten work rule changes for Conrail
This special Top Ten List comes straight from NS corporate headquarters,
located behind Sam Drucker's General Store, Hooterville, North Carolina.
The Top Ten changes in work rules expected to most adversely affect former
CONRAIL employees:
10. All locomotives must now have gun racks.
9. Instead of meal tickets, train crews will be issued a CoCola and a Moon
Pie.
8. Train crew headgear must display the "Redman" chewing tobacco logo.
7. All train crews are now required to have a coon dog asleep on the front
platform of the loco.
6. Each crewmember must put sticker for favorite NASCAR driver in cab
windows and an NRA Freedom bumper sticker on the cab nose.
5. Robert E. Lee's birthday now a paid holiday; 4th of July (fall of
Vicksburg)
a day of mourning.
4. All yards required having at least two inoperable locos on blocks in
front
of the yard office.
3. Grade crossing whistle signal is now the first 12 notes of "Dixie."
2. All radio transmissions now required to end with "Y'all."
And the Number One change to CONRAIL work rules after the NS takeover:
1. Road Foreman of Engines job title changed to Overseer!
D TO DEKALB AV
D TO ATLANTIC AV
D TO PROSPECT PK
D TO KINGS HIGHWY 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON LINE
D TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON EXP
D TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON LOCAL
D TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON EXP
D TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BROADWAY BRIHTON LOCAL
D TO BRIGHTON BCH SHUTTLE
D TO W 8 ST/BKLYN SHUTTLE
D TO CONEY ISLAND
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS BRIGHTON EXP
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS VIA CULVER
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS VIA SEA BEACH
D TO CONEY ISLAND 6 AV EXPRESS VIA WEST END
D TO CONEY ISLAND VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON EXP
D TO CONEY ISLAND VIA BROADWAY BRIGHTON LOCAL
D TO COENY ISLAND 6 AV VIA ESSEX VIA NASSAU ST
F TO BRIGHTON BCH 6 AV LOCAL VIA BRIGHTON
M TO BRIGHTON BCH VIA BRIGHTON
M TO CONEY ISLAND VIA BRIGHTON
N TO BRIGHTON BCH BROADWAY LINE VIA BRIGHTON
N TO CONEY ISLAND BROADWAY LINE VIA BRIGHTON
G TO BERGEN ST CROSSTOWN LOCAL
Q TO DEKALB AV
SEE YA NEXT WEEK
STEVE
See if you can detect a theme in this.
"
Now I've lived down south for about 15 years and have followed CSX & NS very
closely, so here's a "Southern" view of the Top Ten change in work rules
expected to most adversely affect former Conrail employees:
10. Employees must actually report to work in order to be paid.
9. Picking up a six pack at the Liquor store is no longer a requirement for
all job briefings.
8. Employees may no longer claim one day a week off to meet with "Union"
rep.
7. Conrail engines will no longer be equipped with roach clips hanging from
the ceiling.
6. Yard crews will be required to make more than 2 train movements before
taking mandatory 1 hour coffee
break.
5. Conrail trucks will no longer come equipped with pillows.
4. Employees are allowed no more than 3 "lunch hours" each work day.
3. Employees may not claim "massage parlors" as occupational therapy.
2. Employees no longer have the right to layover at Ritz Carltons.
1. Employee who "pass away" at the work site are required to advise
supervisors prior to dying, so as not to
be confused with working employees.
"
Funny, but are you really sure David Letterman will allow continued use of the copyrighted Top Ten List (TM)? If he (or the shysters employed by World Wide Pants, Inc.) objects, your penance will be washing and waxing all redbirds working the 2,5,or 7.
I went to visit a friend who works on Sneidiker Av and parked on Sneidiker. The Southbound "LL" "L" was running above as usual. When I told my friend they were going to tear down the el & run trains both ways on Van Sinderin he didn't believe me at first and asked me when. I didn't know. I know the plans are in the works. Does anyone have dates???
Jeff -- glad you mentioned the proposed Sneidiker structure demolition.
Under 'Upcoming Events' is this Sunday's Atlantic Ave./Canarsie Line Tour which will cover the proposed elimination of the eastern sections of the Atlantic Avenue L and former Pitkin Ave. Line platforms (as well as the Sneidiker portion of the El).
Under MTA Captial Programs is #C33226: 'Reconfigure Atlantic Avenue Interlocking -- $10-50 Million'.
The details include: removal of the "K" layout tracks; relocation of F2 track from the east platform to the west platform; demolish existing concrete deck on the north end of the station; creating new open deck tracks; lower K1 track to meet the P1 track on the south end of work limits; and rehab portions of the El line structure
That's it in a nutshell. Contact me at my e-mail address if you're interested in joining the group.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, the proposed time frame for the Atlantic Avenue/Sneidiker Ave. El demolition is between 2001 and 2003.
Doug aka BMTman
I may be there if the weather's OK.
Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
Would be glad to have you 'aboard', Kevin.
[The details include: removal of the "K" layout tracks; relocation of F2 track from the east platform to the west platform; demolish existing concrete deck on the north end of the station; creating new open deck tracks; lower K1 track to meet the P1 track on the south end of work limits; and rehab portions of the El line structure ]
So it sounds like L service will be worse not better. There'll be less options for the train and there'll be less trackage system wide. Our system continually gets smaller while other systems around the world grow.
True, but the Sneidiker structure is antiquated and much of it is not used (with the exception of the Willy B. closure where the K tracks were used for storage/turnaround of J/Z trains).
I feel that the K tracks SHOULD be kept as is, in case there are any future G.O.'s related to the WB. Certainly the eastern-most platform and tracks at Atlantic are at this point excess steel structure.
Doug aka BMTman
Be warned that there's a GO on the 3 that will have the whole Livonia Ave line shut down from Utica to New Lots, with shuttle buses running. The result will probably be a lot of extra traffic on the L.
I have read in some places that service on Metro-north is generally much better than on the LIRR. I am not in the NY area these days, so I have very limited personal experience with this issue (although 20 years ago I specifically recall service on Metro-north being appalling - like being entombed within a RR car in mid-summer with no AC.)
Is Metro-north better, and if so why? Will conditions improve in the LIRR? If so, why?
MNCR seems to do a better job with maintenance than the LIRR. I'm not sure why the LIRR fleet receives less maintenance than MNCR but it might be a matter of budget.
Other than that - the LIRR has been having teething problems with a new custom design diesel fleet. For whatever reason, the LIRR had to have special design bi-level cars and went with non-standard GM DE30AC
diesel locomotives.
MNCR on the other hand replaced it's diesel hauled carfleet in the mid 1980's and has made smaller additions to it since. The MNCR car fleet is quite standard - somewhat similar to Amtrak Horizon cars - rather boring - and quite reliable. And now that it's beyond it's own teething stage - it tends to run quite well.
One major difference here is the diesel engine fleet. Compare the two railroads. The LIRR in 1955 purchased ALCO RS3s. These were augmented by 2 orders of ALCO C420s in 1963 and 1968. The entire diesel fleet was replaced again around 1977 by GM GP38-2s and MP15ACs.
And that diesel fleet has just this year been replaced for the most part by new DE and DM30AC diesel engines - though a few MP15ACs were retained for work train service.
During the same time period, MNCR's ancestor railroad - the New Haven - bought 30 FL9 diesels in 1957 and 30 more in 1960. Some of those same diesels are still in service today. Some have been upgraded or rebuilt. About 6 were converted to FL9ACs and only one of those is out of service. In addition, MNCR purchased something like 20 new GE Genesis locomotives between 1995 and 1999. And although they definitely had teething problems of their own, they too are now pretty steady.
With the exception of the Montauk trains, the LIRR has no great difference in route distance. And so I relly don't understand why LIRR has to replace their locomotives so much more frequently than MNCR. But I suspect it has once again - something to do with maintenance.
The same applies to the electric fleet. MNCR has about 30+ cars of 1963 vintage known as ACMUs in their 1100 series. These cars are the same design as the recently retired LIRR ZIP cars that were bought by LIRR for the '63-'64 Worlds Fair. Prior to the retirement of the LIRR ZIP cars, they were demotored and made into trailing diesel hauled cars.
On the other hand, the MNCR fleet of tired old ACMUs is still in limited service - typically during rush hour holding down shorter routes. And - they retain their own electrical propulsion systems.
So - why the LIRR was unable to keep the ZIP cars in service - let alone with their own propulsion systems - is difficult to understand as MNCR has been able to keep those cars running - even now.
The big answer is probably budget.
And a guess is that morale is probably not what you'd want it to be in the LIRR shops.
The LIRR also has a lower farebox recovery than Metro North--more reason to suspect that the real difference is the incompetence of the LIRR's management and the greed of its unions.
Someone should ask why us LIRR communters have to put up with dirty cars constantly and why when they ordered the M1 and M3 MUs that one thought to have trash recepticles installed near the seats. Go figure.....and why there are no cleaning someone along the various lines that can come in and pick up the trash before the get sent out on a run.......
I heard that vandals set trash receptacles on fire from a MN conductor, and thats why their new cars only got them in the can.
All valid questions but here are some others.
Why do LIRR customers allow their coffee to spill on the floors of cars?
Why do LIRR customers leave empty bottles and cans on the seats and floors?
Why do LIRR customers leave magazines and newspapers behind?
Why do LIRR customers feel its permisible to ride with their feet on the seats?
Trash recepticles pose the potential for fire due to vandalism. They present an additional maintenance issue and a breeding ground for roaches and vermin. So my final question must be, why can't LIRR customers sit for an hour without having to eat or drink?
Because Long Islanders are slobs. They treat places like Roosevelt Field mall like the LIRR too. They wreck the bathrooms (Rolls of toilet paper all over the place, even in toilets), they leave merchandise all over the floor, like a shoe department in Bloomingdale's with shoes all over the floor. And they never clean up at the food court. In Manhattan, stores like Bloomingdale's and Macy's
are fairly neat even though they get crowded. And public bathrooms are better than those at Roosevelt Field. And subway trains are cleaner than LIRR trains.
Let's face it, Long Island is the land of slobs and snobs.
One reason might be is that the MNRR might have better crews becase almost all of them WANTED to work for MNRR, having been given the choice between Metro North and AMTRAK or Conrail...Also, a NAIVE question: Aren't a lot of MN crews based in places other than Croton Harmon?? Or does everybody start out at CH[or NH or GCT] for some of the early AM scheds? Does a conductor [or trainman or engineer] who has, say the 5:42 am out of Poughkeepsie have to go to the Croton Harmon yard? Have always wondered....I know that a LOT of the conductors on the PJ line [especially the peak trains]actually live in the area..especially the vets who have actually worked for the EL in their lifetime! But the guys who sub have to drive a LONGG ways some mornings...or sleep on the damn train overnight! But to give an example from another mode of transportation, I know that the local bus company actually maintains apartments [or have a motel room perpetually rented] in some key cities for drivers on certain bids.....
Can someone tell me the weight difference between the HBLR (or new Newark) cars and a Newark PCC? I'm wondering whether light rail is really light rail, or whether the weight is reaching that of a heavy interurban, pre-1930. Is there any website that gives gives the specs of the new NJT light rail cars, including number of motors, horsepower, etc. Thanks.
The Newark PCC's weighed approx. 37,000 lbs. each when delivered.
I am sure that the HBLR cars weigh substantially more, as they are much larger articulated cars. Loaded probably even more.
I recall seeing that H*LR cars are around 91,000 lbs
ANDEE
I was thinking of walking the SIR south beach line. Any suggestions?
I want to take pics of the old line before it dissapears due to construction.
Are any of the stations on that line still there or are they all gone?
[I was thinking of walking the SIR south beach line. Any suggestions?
I want to take pics of the old line before it dissapears due to construction.
Are any of the stations on that line still there or are they all
gone?]
Construction indeed has gobbled up much of the right of way. There's still probably enough remaining for you to follow it, at least part of the way.
I believe that all the old stations are long gone.
Sorry, you are SOL. The only stations left from the line are St.George, Tompkinsville, Stapleton, and Clifton. All the tracks, platforms, and stations are gone. A majority of the ROW is also now houses, streets, and the V-Z toll approach. Many of the bridges have been demolished in recent years, as they are in extremely poor condition. In fact, on cllapsed while it was being disassembled a few weeks ago.
-Hank
05/19/2000
[In fact, on cllapsed while it was being disassembled a few weeks ago.]
Which overpass might that be?
Bill "Newkirk"
Come chat now and bail me out from literature homework (at least for a few minutes)!
I spoke to Bill Bell of the Daily News today about Forgotten NY. Look for an article in Friday's Daily News profiling the site.
Meanwhile today's Post headine:
Hill: I'll Champion Forgotten NYers
With friends like these...
Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Hill: I'll Champion Forgotten NYers)
Yeah, those who have moved down to the Sunbelt.
Thanks again to Thurston for the event.
A "thank-you" also goes to Subwaybuff who initiated the tour plans. Unfortunately, we never met up with our fellow SubTalker (and railfan tour planner).
Doug aka BMTman
I arrived at Main Street 315pm(after a photo shoot at LIRR Flushing and a drink at McD's.). I waited at Street Level till 410pm when I went downstairs to see if anyone was there- no one. Went back up to the street and left at 420 when no one was there. I arrive at Times Square at 501 to see the redbird leaving- and thusly went home.
I hope all of you had a good time.
I do not plan on any more tours. I left Thurston instructions to meet at Street Level at the down excaaltor on what would be the Manhattn bound side if the line went further- Oh Well! Glad you guys liked the trip!
It was good meeting up for the Stillwell part of this evenings SubTalk-sponsored tour.
I met up with Dave P., Thurston, Paul P., Carlos (a new comer), Howard, and another Long Islander who's name escapes me at the moment.
Unfortunately, we were greeted by a Hippo (OOps! I mean an R-68) at Pacific Street on the N line. We rode in an ever thinning rush-hour crowd to Coney Island where -- after dodging assorted vagrants and panhandlers -- arrived at our destination of NATHAN'S FAMOUS! (Ahh, they still make a GREAT hot dog n' fries -- not to mention a tasty corn-on-the-cob to boot!!). It was nice to sit down outside and chow down while chatting about rapid transit(the tables were already setup for the summer crowds not far from invading the establishment).
We got a great, and quite unexpected treat upon our trip city-bound: on a Manhattan-bound D train, while slowly pulling out of Stillwell, we spied a worktrian that was on it's way north on the Culver Line. It snaked beneath us at West 8th and was visible from above for photo-ops as the Culver parted from the Stillwell El structure. There were a team of diesels pulling several hopper cars of ballast. The best part was that we saw an R-14 that was probably being used as the "tender" for the head diesel locomotive. Very rare sighting since this run was barely at 8:00 p.m.
A good afterwork trip that I wouldn't mind doing again.
Doug aka BMTman
I hope those photo's do come out. Not easy shooting while moving and aiming at another moving target. I know in a couple days.
But our tour started at Main Street on the #7 with Thurston and two
other Subtalker ( there names escapes me also, must be something in those hot dogs ). We proceed to Woodside to see the completed work done on the LIRR station. Next stop was 40 St. ( Lowery ) to examine the stain glass on the platform and downstairs.
We then continued on to Times Square where we meet up with another Subtaker Howard. We hopped on the #2 ( Redbird ) to Altantic Ave
to meet up with Dave. Then it was downstairs to Pacific St to meet up
with Doug.
It was good trip before going to work, but I'm hurting. Need to get some shuteye. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzz
Guess I missed this one in Subtalk...damn!
As always, it was nice getting together. The weather, company and franks were all great. We must have been quite a sight to all those tired commuters, standing at the front of the '2' and 'N' trains discussing the fine points of rapid transit.
If we go to Coney again, it might be worthwhile to take the 'B' out, which, while being all R-68As, at least offers some great elevated views of Brooklyn, Staten Island and the yards without that annoying car wash in the way. You can't depend on getting a 32 on the 'N' when you want one, or, for that matter, any other given model of train at any time.
The mini-tour of Stillwell terminal was quite interesting; I never knew the public had access to that ramp to the elevator. I also
never realized how SLEAZY Coney is, even on a nice spring evening before sunset. We must have all been harrassed by panhandlers while on line; for a short time it looked like there was going to be a nasty confrontation between a beggar and a biker.
It seems that as recently as ten-fifteen years ago, the Stillwell terminal was a good place to see many different models of stock, all the way from R-27 through 46. It seems deflating to see nothing but 46s and 68s resting there, with only the odd 32 or even rarer Slant.
John and I boarded a 'D' that sat in the terminal long enough for me to finish all three franks. We took part in a thrilling and suspenseful chase with a Slant 'Q' from Brighton to Sheepshead, and won out in the end as we barely made the connection. After the usual speedfest up East 16th, and a dazzling sunset on the Bridge, I changed at 34th for the 'N' to Broadway and my car.
I can't make this Sunday's Canarsie line trip, but hope to go on any future ones.
Hi Howard,
Sorry I forgot your name in my earlier post. That was a nice ride we had on the "Q". Unfortunately I did not make my 8:50pm N21 bus so I had to catch the 9:50pm one, because most of the 7's were local. The one express I did see just beat our train to Junction, and closed it's doors just as we were pulling in. But I'm glad I missed that train because it got stuck just outside of Shea, and even though only the first car was off the platform, people were stuck inside the train.
Got to Flushing at about 9:03pm, and spend the time in Wendy's having a nice Frosty.
Yeah, Coney Island is kind of sleezy. Flushing used to have alot of beggars but they seem to be gone this year, however the problem was quite evident in Coney Island.
Still Coney has alot of trains, nice views, and great food (even though I wasn't hungry at the time).
I didn't get home until 10:45pm last night, and I fell asleep right away! I wish I could live in Flushing instead of the boon docks here in Sea Cliff!
John
It was a magnificent trip.
The slants.
The bay.
The frog legs.
The friendly Station Crewman.
The railfanning with the Holy Pirmann.
Even the videotape... Just Magnificent.
There were eight of us in all: Greg (a new SubTalker); John; Paul P.; Howard; Carlos; Dave P.; Doug & myself. It also appears there were two more: one who couldn't wait & one who thru my miss cue was left waiting at a different spot :-(
We also saw the iron gate art work at Woodside as well as the concrete ties, welded rails & new LIRR platforms there... I talked the group thru Queensboro Plaza & had a nice all Red Bird ride to Atlantic Ave.
There we found Dave on the uptown IRT platform. We walked to the end and saw the stub that the Mineola probally used to go from Grand Central to Bellmont Race Track. The existing track aleignment seeems to beg for a re-connection.
At Pacific we waited until just after 6 PM when Doug's smilling face emerged from the crowd. Then Dave & Doug pushed me thru the open jaws of a Hippo ... oh I felt sick, I felt confined, only the good company kept me from throwing up ... seriously it wasn't THAT bad a ride and in fact the D we caught from Stillwell to Brighten Beach was another Hippo.
Another small note, it appears that the one man token booth that Peggy Darlington showed us in October has now been replaced by MVMs :-(
So, for me it was 6 hours of Railfaning (4 to 10), as the last leg of my journey was on the LIRR from Atlantic Ave., AND I managed to get in a little MetroCard Swapping, i.e. I've been unable to get the Net2Phone card but found the Station Agent at Main Street was selling them so I traded in a expired one & bought a second for Doug, at Pacific we did a little trading before my Hippo adventure.
Mr t__:^)
Your telling me Doug was on time???
He always misses his posted leaving time, WOW.
Sorry I missed it, couldn't get off fromwork.
Doug had a good excuse. He was at an Al Sharpton rally. BTW Doug, I've been getting this: Sorry, the message has not been posted and it doesn't exist. Someone out there is sabotaging me.
Because these threads are off topic and inflammatory and the webmaster deletes them.
It could be Al Sharpton's gremlins. I hear they can get into ANYWHERE.
;-)
I hear you Doug, and I don't mean any harm by it. Politics cam make some people seem strange and we should all be careful about how we make those statements. That Al Sharpton rally thing was said tongue-in-cheek, but now you have Lazio in there. He any better in your book, and I wonder if he rides the subway when he comes to the city.
I think one thing that we've all overlooked here with the "has so-and-so ridden the subway..." is that most public personalities -- whether they be political (Sharpton, Lazio, Rudy G.) or theatrical (Woody Allen, Robert DeNiro, etc.) -- rarely, if ever take the subway or any form of mass transit for TWO reasons (1) they don't want some errant 'lunatic' fan from reconizing them and following them home and (2) public transportation can ecounter service problems that would put a serious dent into the schedules of the above mentioned 'big shots'. With a limosuine or taxi, at least any delays that the celeb encounters could be minimized with alternate planning. With the subway, there ain't no way to get out of a train stuck in a tunnel unless they start digging!
Doug aka BMTman
PS -- I like Lazio: he's got more principals than Hillary (or Rudy G.) Damn shame Pataki didn't go with him from the get-go. I think he'll have to work extra-hard to get his name out there to make a serious difference. At this point I'm still going for the underdog Green Party candidate, Al "Grandpa" Lewis.
[I like Lazio: he's got more principals than Hillary (or Rudy G.) Damn shame Pataki didn't go with him from the get-go. I think he'll have to work extra-hard to get his name out there to make a serious difference. At this point I'm still going for the underdog Green Party candidate, Al "Grandpa" Lewis.]
Lazio probably will do all right as far as name recognition is concerned because of the manner in which he became the (presumptive) nominee. If he'd been nominated out of a field of run-of-the-mill politicians at the convention, then indeed he might have run into the "Rick who?" factor. Instead, he stepped into the void following Giuliani's much-publicized and much-delayed withdrawal. That was almost guaranteed to garner Lazio ample publicity.
05/21/2000
[If he'd been nominated out of a field of run-of-the-mill politicians at the convention, then indeed he might have run into the "Rick who?" factor. ]
Hillary who ???
Bill "Newkirk"
So far he has only presented him self as a NATIVE New Yorker, his Misses and children. There are many of us , that are not Native, but chose to be here. Are we too carpet baggers? Are his opinions the same for our new citizzens from foreign lands , now US citizens that vote also to be looked down upon? Wasn't there a recent uproar after a certain ballplayer from Atlanta who made remarks about the deversity of our city. This nation is a nation of migrants , Domestic and foreign. Mr Lazio should say someting with substance by now.
Agreat many people have picked up and moved on to different locations through out this nation. Mr. Lazio, get over it a talk issuses not trying to be the all state home boy. Thats how groups in the past treated the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the latinos. He should reach out to all , not try to be exclusive.
avid
Ethnic or racial background has nothing to do with the argument at hand. The question is simply a person with no New York background whatsoever coming into the state to launch per political career, and a party so desperate for talent that it has to resort to importing candidates. As a Californian you can say that it's really isn't my business, but we out here would never and have never tolerated carpetbaggers coming into the state just to run for office. Ever hear of Norbert Schlei, Lloyd Hand, Pierre Salinger? They tried that and got beaten to a pulp. No one has tried it out here since 1966, and they better not.
I know one actor who has taken the subway for sure: Hector Elizondo. There was a subway poster ad two, maybe three years ago with Elizondo's picture and a plug from him about using mass transit. He said he's a native of NYC and has been a subway rider all his life.
Doug: I fondly hope that our little rivalry is over. I meant it in all good fun but politics sometimes isn't a funny thing to talk about. I get your drift about riding the subway, but it my simple mind my reaction is this: "Boy, do they really know what they are missing." I met all sorts of characters on the subway last summer and to a person they were all interesting and friendly. I don't know why but New Yorkers seem to be more open and friendly than the last time I was there in 1991. And the subway? Well, I can say this only. Whenever I go to New York, the first thing I do is ride the subway.
You don't like the R-68's and I am impressed with them. One of these days we'll find something we both agree on. Good to know, though, that your tour went well. It's too bad there isn;t one planned for the 16-18 of August when I will be in town. Those tours sound great.
Hi,
I'm the Long Island'er from the Glen Cove area that came. This was the first time I was on a subtalk trip and I had a good time. The ride on the 7 was quite nice with those Redbirds, and we saw the newly refurbished Woodside LIRR station.
And we had a really fast ride on the 2 train on the 7th avenue express, and got to see Clark street closed for renovation, and the sign telling motormen not to to stop there.
We got off at Atlantic and saw the connection from the IRT to LIRR for Belmont, which was quite evident. It was early and unfortunately we couldn't catch the 3 R32 N trains that came into Pacific street, and there was hippos after that. The N ride was kind of slow as the Hippo moaned it's way down the tracks. I did get to check out the LIRR Bay Ridge line, which is seen right from the tracks of the Sea Beach. Stillwell avenue was quite interesting, there is quite a nice view of the ocean and the Coney Island yards from there.
Unfortunately I had to leave early to catch my bus from Flushing to Glen Cove. I wish I could've stayed longer, but it's a long way from Coney Island to Sea Cliff. Maybe if --L--I--R--T--> existed maybe I could've gotten home later!
I wish I could've seen that work train that you guys saw later! One of you accompanied me on my ride from the D to the Q in Brooklyn and Manhattan but I don't remember your name. The D was kind of slow (a Hippo of course!) but we just made a Q train of slant R40's at Sheepshead Bay. Someone was at the window but the train was pretty fast, there's nothing like Slants on the Brighton express!
I got off at 42nd and walked fast to the 7 train, but not fast enough as I saw an express pulling out of the station just as I got there. There was two locals after that, and I got on the 2nd one. I guess there are less 7 expresses at that hour.
I stayed on the local, and a 7 express just got ahead at Junction and closed it's doors just as we were pulling in. But I'm glad I missed that train, because when we got to Willets point, that 7X train was stuck, the first car was halfway out of the station, and the doors were closed with people inside. Why didn't they let them out so they could transfer to the local?
Anyway I could not catch the 8:50pm N21 bus and had to wait for the 9:50pm one, which was the same bus #205 that I had on the morning run in, sitting in that half hour traffic jam before Roslyn, all because of construction in the middle of rush hour. I felt the bus should have detoured away from that traffic jam.
Well anyway thanks for the great time on Redbirds to Stillwell, and I wish I could've stayed longer.
[R110A/B]
Where are these cars and can they be seen in plain view? If so, from where.
[R110B]
Did these cars use cantenary pick-ups or were they always third rail?
I ask this because I think I saw one in a book with a cantenary pick-up like the ones the LRV's have.
They used the cantenary pick up while they were at the manufacturer. On the NYCTA system they use conventional third rail contact shoes like the other subway car classes.
Wayne
R-110B can be seen at 207st yd from 207st on the 1/9 during rush hour (no other trains in the way). You can see the front from the bridge the Bx12 goes over.
R-110A can be seen at the #2 yard in Wakefield, only during rush hour. Last I went, there were R-62 cars 1910-1906 signed up as a 10.
This is a little bit off...but how are you getting colors to get thru.
Thanks..Have a nice weekend
COLORS
and many other tricks are possible thru the use of HTML tags
Thanks !!!!
Have a nice weekend
You are welcome, if you are interested in learning more about the world of HTML here is a link you may like, HTML INFO.
Peace
ANDEE
I suggest you read that page too.
I suggest you get a stress ball. I am learning myself and only trying to help.
Peace,
ANDEE
The lack of closing tags here is annoying.
The program should automatically strip any unclosed tags like it does with JavaScript.
Question - that consist of R62 cars DID or DIDN'T include body-damaged car #1909? If it DID, was the repair completed?
Wayne
The 110Bs had cantenary poles for the picture on Tomorrows train today
Not sure if they still do
Looking at the cup as half full as compared to half empty, I was reminded of the fact that the Sea Beach, my train, as well as the Brighton Beach and West End, are serviced by the R-68's. It is only my opinion, of course, but I think they are as handsome a train as any others used in the system. Of course, I'm clueless as to how the TA assigns certain trains to different lines, but as noticed last summer that you'd find the 68's on certain lines, while the Redbirds were confined for the most part to three IRT lines, 2, 5 and 7. You get the picture. It would be nice to know why it is done this way instead of the lines having inter-changeable trains run on their tracks. But as long as the R-68's stay on the Sea Beach line all is not lost. However, it would be a pleasant surprise to ride that train this summer during my three day stay in New York and find that they have done some refurbishing of some of the stations that are in bad need of repair. I also found out that the Manny B's work will not be completed until 2003. The work has to be enormous for it to have gone on this long.
I like the R-68, but I prefer the R-68A as they seem to be faster and R-68 appears to have dull sheetmetal. In terms of appearance I still think the R-46 are at the top.
Wayne
R68's #1
The 68s and 46s also appear to be more roomier... despite being 8-cars compared to the other 10-car R40 & R32s. Probably the latter doesn't quite being able to encourage people to move in enough, at times I feel I am forced to push my way inside to get people to move into the more sparsely populated portions of the cars. On the other hand, when those R68s/R46s pull in, most people manage to get their way inside the car.
What's up with those people who don't move all the way inside the cars and just standing near the doors? What's up with that? And those baby carriages can certainly be folded up especially when a child is not in it! And then there's some people who pulls their luggages near the poles, and sits on somewhere far away so the luggage appears to be belonged to noone. What's up with this? and that! etc...
Passive-aggresive behavior? Is there a shrink in the house?
My favorites are the clowns with the bicycles, BLOCKING 5 SEATS...
Peace,
ANDEE
R68As are great, and are on the top of my "Favorite 75' car" list, followed by R-44SI, R-46, R-44 Regular, R-68.
Car assignments have a lot to do with the yards they operate out of. All of the R-46s, for instance, operate out of Jamaica Yard and are assigned to routes which originate there (F, G, R, and at times the E). Concourse Yard has only R-68s, but not all of them. That's why all B and D trains are R-68 consists. By having only one car class per yard, or perhaps two, parts inventories and tools can be standardized, and maintenance personnel can focus on that particular car type.
As for the 7, the R-36s are used exclusively, and have been since the day they arrived in 1963-64. Well, some of the WF R-36s are now on the 6. It's a safe bet that this will be one record which may never be broken - one line being served exclusively by one car class for so long. Even the R-10s didn't stay on the A line that long.
As I've said before, I still associate the R-32s with the N, even though they've run on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of and then some during their careers.
Of course, the Q line is served exclusively by slant R-40s, but not all of them. Some are on the N; the rest are on the L. Occasionally, the B line will get a set or two during weekends.
In reference to the Flushing line it is quite unusual for essentially one car class to serve a line for it's entire career. As far as I can remember the Flushing line has never quite had all of the WF R-36 cars at one time. Before they were on the 6 line they also servered on the 2 and 4 lines briefly. Also in the 1970-early 1980's a few of them were on the 1 & 3 lines. As far as the WF R-33 are concerned - I've never seen them anywhere else, but on the Flushing line.
Wayne
I think when first delivered, all the R-36WF were on the Flushing line, because of the extra service provided during the 1964-65 World's Fair. Sometime in the late 1960s, some of the cars migrated over the No. 1 line, while still wearing their World's Fair colors.
I remember seeing a few WF R-36s on the West Side IRT in the late 70s. In every case, they would be intermixed with other cars and stuck out like sore thumbs because of their unique paint scheme. Apparently, a solid train or two was known to run on the 1 in the early 70s.
Didn't some R36s appear on the 3rd Avenue El for a short period of time?
The "B"'s home yard is Coney Island; they only sleep along the Concourse cos they're only there in Rush Hour.
wayne
I stand corrected.
Speaking of R10s operating on the A line, I seem to remember reading in "They Moved the Millions" that when the R10s first arrived, they served the E & F lines first. Can anybody verify that? Does anybody dispute it.
That's interesting because I thought the City acquired the Rockaway Division from LIRR, the R-10's were planned to run as the 'designated' R-types for that line.
BTW, welcome back, Far Rock! Where have you been hiding all this time?
Chat later,
Doug
Hey, What's Up Doug:
I been away a little while, but I am definately back now! I will definately keep in touch
No, the R-10s first entered revenue service on the A on November 20, 1948. William Padron, Mister R-10, is an authority on this subject. Except for the thirty units which were sent to the Eastern Division from 1954 to 1959, the R-10s ran exclusively on the A until the Chrystie St. connection opened, when a handful were assigned to the B line. Others were sent to the HH. They still dominated the A line until October of 1977, when the slant R-40s, a worthy successor, took over. From then until their retirement, the R-10s ran on every IND route at one time or other, but were concentrated on the CC. During the R-46 truck crisis, the R-10s could be found on the E and F lines.
The R-38s and slant R-40s were initially assigned to the E and F.
I just heard on the news that cracks are being found on them. It'll cost them $160,000 to study why this is happening and about $3 million per locomotive to fix. Luckily, they're still under warranty. Lets hope they still have some old coaches around for service.
They should've just electrified the OB and PJ lines! Now we are paying for it. You can thank the NIMBY's in part!
John, you are correct about electrifying the entire system. However NIMBYism is not to blame in the case of the Port Jeff Branch. I have lived in Greenlawn (on the PJ line) for almost 24 years. I still remember the low level platforms.
During the time that Bob Mrazek was the local Congressman, he secured some funding to electrify from Huntington to Port Jeff. But then LIRR president Bruce McGiver took the money and electrified the system to Ronkonkoma. Not because of NIMBYism but by electrifying that branch they could reduce the travel time from Ronkonkoma to Penn by 30 minutes since that branch is basically flat and straight into Farmingdale. The honchos said that if PJ was electrified that the reduction in time would only be 10 minutes since PJ branch is windy and hilly the trains could never get up to the speeds that R's could.
Also at that time there was talk of moving the passenger terminal at McArthur to the north side of the field and build a long bridge with a people mover for people to get to the LIRR and then into the city. Made sense, never happened.
Regarding the loco trouble..according to Newsday the cracks are in the frame of the engines near the "Yaw Control". Apparently the YC controls the side-to-side swaying of the engines if they go over 100 MPH. However since the engines are limited to 80 MPH "this is not a major concern". Sure, then why are the engineers complaining of a bumpy ride with the YC disconnected. First it was the computerized brakes, now the YC. Hey, with my mechanical ability, I could be in charge of Hillside Facility
05/18/2000
According to that Newsday article, the cracks were discovered in the "Yaw damper". Some loco's had their yaw dampers removed as a precaution, but the engineers complained to their union of "swaying". I guess if I were piloting a train of bi-levels with passengers and noticed swaying that wasn't present before, I would be concerned too, thinking a derailment was about to happen. Cracks in the Yaw dampers were discovered in both the DE and DM engines. Were cracks discovered in diesel locomotives built by Fairbanks-Morse, Baldwin, Alco, General Electric and EMD ? Don't build them that good anymore!
Bill "Newkirk"
The trucks seems to be of an unproven design. The "Bloomberg" trucks of the GP38's have proven themselves since the FT's of 1939. Why the LIRR asked for or why the LIRR accepted EMD specifications is beyond me.
The Yaw damper is a strut that connects the truck to the bottom of the frame. It is designed to stop the side to side rocking. The rocking could cause the lost of contact with the rail as the locomotive's weight is shifting side to side. A crack means the strut needs to be of a heavier design.
Just as something new was tried in NY (R46 trucks, 870's, etc), again history shows it should have been tested in NY first before committing itself to accept the design.
The engines were built to LIRR specs. GE's EMD tried to talk them out of some the the specs, but the LIRR overruled them.
-- Kirk
Thanks. EMD is a division of General Motors, not GE (General Electric).
IIRC when the locomotives were nearing the end of the design stage GM notified LIRR that they were considerably heavier than the LIRR wanted. If too heavy the vibrations would weaken many trestles. If they have to make the yaw dampers heavier what will happen to the trestles or will they modify another part of the engine by lightening it up to compensate for the extra weight ????
A yaw damper is like the shocks on your car. Two are normally used per truck or four total. If each weights 100 pounds, then a heavier one may be 250 pounds each or 300 pounds total (for four). To make the locomotive ligher, decrease the fuel capacity.
Don't they need those 4000 gallons? (or 400, not sure how to read the indicator, don't know much about engines).
4000 gallons? Do you know how much that would be?
I don't know, the stupid indicator has four digits, no decimal points, says "gallons", and the highest reading I've seen was 3750. I guess it would have to mean 375.0, since it rounds to the tenth (have seen it alternate from 560 to 570, must have been at 565 and couldn't figure out what to round to.)
Those new LIRR diesels in fact do hold 4000 gal of fuel. The GP 38's hold about 3000 gal.
I disagree. The new locomotives only carry 3000 gal in the tank. If it was 4000 gals, the wheelbase would be longer.
It would be just the right amount for a locomotive.
You know what kind of mileage a locomotive gets?
The GP38-2's for example, would burn about five gallons an hour at IDLE. At full throttle, the consumption rate goes up to over 300 gallons an hour.
By contrast, your average city bus gets around 5-6 miles per gallon, so a 125-gallon tank is suffice on buses, which weigh around one-tenth as much as a small locomotive, and don't pull anything around behing them.
I wonder how much all that diesel fuel costs with the high rates these days. Just another reason that LIRR should've electrified the Oyster Bay branch (as well as the PJ) and kill any NIMBY's that would stop it.
Even with the high fuel costs that we see at service stations, the LIRR (as well as most other fleet-users of diesel fuel such as bus and truck companies) do NOT pay those prices. Generally, they negotiate a contract price for months in advance and if the price fluctuates, the fuel price is locked until the expiration of the contract.
In recent times, though, the contract terms are NOT the long ones that we used to hear of, i.e. a year in advance. Now it's down to two months or so in most cases. The transit ageny where I drive said their current price for diesel was 83 cents a gallon -- but they go through 20,000 gallons or more a day.
And, the grade of diesel fuel used by the railroads is a bit cheaper. It's not the sort of stuff you want to run through your diesel powered automobile or pickup truck.
Just whator how many grades of diesel fuel are there? I thought diesel fuel was diesel fuel.
avid
Just like there are multiple grades of gasoline, there are multiple grades of diesel.
-- Kirk
It used to be the common grades were "#1" and "#2" diesel. Generally, you'd find #2 diesel at pumps at service stations, and this is the stuff that automobiles and most highway trucks would run. Bus companies tended to use the #1 diesel, which asn't readily available to the public, but could be gotten by delivery to a company's own tanks/fueling facilities. The #1 diesel burned a little cleaner (i.e. less smoke) and stunk a little less, and of course, cost a slight bit more.
And then there's the really cheap shit that the railroads would use for locomotives. Somehow, I think Santa Fe gets the worst or the cheap crap, as every time one of their freights passes my residence, the place reeks to high heaven and it lingers for quite a while! (Never smell a thing when Amtrak or Metrolink go by.....)
I don't know the answer as to the actual fuel capacity of the DE30s. However, the NYCT R-120s (the newest diesel loco) have a 500 gallon capacity. Considering the size of the DM30s relative to the R-120 and the fact that they also have a second engine for HEP, I'd say 4,000 gallons sounds about right.
Well there are many differences in the neighborhoods around the PJ line versus the OB. In general that northern Suffolk area is in a lot better shape, with more new commercial development than along the OB line.
NIMBY's did sink the OB line, and they continue to keep this area down. Anybody who's been around LIRR Oyster Bay line stations like Glen street and Sea Cliff, knows how decripid the area is around them.
People around this area (Sea Cliff, Glen Cove,etc) don't want commercial development, so commercial areas (retail and industry) rot.
And service on the LIRR OB sucks, trains run at only every two hours off peak, and for some reason even the new trains don't do more than 30mph on the OB line. Yet there continues to be new housing built, but no service improvements, and very little commercial development. The result, is overcrowded and out of stock supermarkets, traffic congestion that is terrible on roads that lead out of the area, because 90% of the people that live here have to work and shop in places outside of the area, because there is such little here.
And the OB line gets a bad crowd too, last time I took the OB train there were drunks, punks, and some guy blasting his radio.
All this delapidation, in a major part thanks to those damn NIMBY's.
Maybe they only have to drive past the slummy areas, but soon they will be on the street they live, and all the NIMBY's (many of whom are affluent) will move out and this whole area will become a dump.
The smell of beer and urine is quite evident on some streets here in Sea Cliff, and it is choking by Sea Cliff and Glen street RR stations. Not to mention the day laborers and homeless that I've seen walking the tracks.
People who opposed Oyster Bay line electrification feared "urbanization" would result. The end result is everything rots like in some "inner city" area the NIMBY's feared.
And of course the addition of a third rail would eradicate those problems. Yeah, right!!!
Might get rid of some of those day laborers and homeless walking the tracks.
Well I am not sure what streets in Sea Cliff smell of urine since I live on Daniel Place and have walked around my area many times without smelling that sort of odor. As for the other points, the OB line was a touchy issue among the wealthy areas of Locust Valley and Mill Neck for many years. Those "old monied" families did not want "their areas" to be gentrified with "city folk" if the OB were to be improved with the use of the M3 MU cars. So they did all that they could to keep the line as is....in otherwords...they did not want to start a "bedroom community" boom along the line.....I guess not they are happy that the LIRR closed the Mill Neck station because of lack of use and would not be worth it to spent the money to upgrade the station to meet the new handicap regulations. As for the point of retail development, Glen Cove has turned around over the last couple of years, with new stores opening up, so I am not sure why John feels there is a lack of it in Glen Cove.
Parts of Glen Cove have turned around, but southern and western sections are still pretty bad. Any NIMBY's have fought any development tooth and nail.
Sea Cliff "downtown", particularly Roslyn avenue and Sea Cliff avenue, by the bars, do smell like urine and beer. And cars often park and drive illegally, but the police don't do anything (except patrol the two stop signs where Carpenter and Main intersect with Sea Cliff avenue for wheel rolling at stops.
Glen Cove has too few supermarkets, the only ones are inaccessible by public transportation (wonder why?) on Forest avenue. Farmers bazaar is nice but is often overcrowded an out of stock, and Edwards is just plain disgusting.
And the urine stench is bad by the N21,N27 bus stop downtown.
While Glen Cove has improved somewhat (Sweezy's, Staples,etc), the NIMBY's have fought any improvement tooth and nail. Now the NIMBY's (mainly the Village of Sea Cliff) spends it's taxpayers money on fighting a ferry.
I like the south shore much better, newer housing, more retail (especially supermarkets), and easier access to public transportation.
And new development sails through, with very little opposition.
Also neccesary conveniences, like supermarkets, pharmacies, and gas stations are open late, many all night. Glen Cove should have a 24 hour supermarket, and Farmers Bazaar should step up to the plate of being more like Pathmark, instead of the small family run operation it is.
And the quietness of the areas of Glen Cove where transit serves, especially at night, make me feel unsafe. Downtown by the bus stops
is very desolate at night, and when I've walked home from Sea Cliff LIRR station I've felt quite unsafe, because it is so dark and quiet.
Boy, do I miss the bright lights and the "happening" where I used to live in Levittown. Why doesn't LI Bus have one of it's routes go onto Forest avenue where the shopping centers are? Is LI Bus in charge of where it's routes go, or is route expansion being stopped by local NIMBY's (wouldn't be suprised).
I must admitt that certain people in Sea Cliff want to keep the "small town USA" atmosphere by clamming down on development in the area, including the ferry in Glen Cove. People do move to Sea Cliff because it is quiet and not like towns on the south shore of Long Island. Sea Cliff boasts good schools and low taxes which makes the real estate in that area rather pricey, but to the extreme as some other areas on the Gold Coast. As far as downtown Sea Cliff goes, the bars are very few there. You should come to Bayside, Queens and see Bell Blvd. on a summer weekend night. Bayside was also a "small, quiet town until a few years ago when so many mom-pop shops closed to make way for the bars....now everyone goes there to party. Yes, Sea Cliff and the surrounding areas are definitely not like Levittown, which is basically a "real bedroom" community.
As for walking home from the Sea Cliff station, I have never had a problem walking there or anywhere else late at night going to Daniel Place in Sea Cliff.
As for public transportation, certain areas are not well serve for good reason, most people in Nassau County would rather drive to where they are going. Prime example is oosevelt Field, where so many new parking lots have been built for consumers. Have you seen any new bus routes going to that area?...no....have you seen LIRR try to make any sort of station nearby the abandonded ROWs? no.....yet residents around the Westbury area are now complaining about effects of air pollution from the increase in traffic.
If the LIBUS really wanted to go foward, they could start by have a really good ad campaign to get people to use mass transit instead waiting in all that traffic.
It seems that many posts drift rapidly away from the original thread subject. This one was titled New LIRR Loco Troubles but instead is a discussion of the smell of urine in SeaCliff etc. It would be helpful if the Subject line were modified when the subject of the post is more than a little off the original topic. This way we can easily find those posts that interest us without wasting time reading those that hold no relevance or interest to the reader.
...and likewise people would not miss posts that might interest them because the topic has changed TO something they are interested in.
[If the LIBUS really wanted to go foward, they could start by have a really good ad campaign to get people to use mass transit instead waiting in all that traffic.]
Unfortunately, thanks to Nassau County's fiscal woes, LI Bus is proposing major service cutbacks. It's truly a shame, as Nassau's density makes it better suited to transit than most suburban areas. Suffolk County is quite different in comparison. Its larger size and generally lower density means that intra-county transit is a dicey proposition at best. Suffolk Transit, not surprisingly, has a gruesome farebox recovery ratio. Yet no one is discussing any cutbacks, which indicates a willingness to maintain current service levels. If only Nassau had similar resolve.
It gets me so mad that in a county with so many upper middle and upper income people that Nassau can't afford a better transit system. There is plenty of money for LI Bus here from the many residents of Nassau county who have. And also, what is up with the Hub light rail system?
Are we going to ever get it, and hopefully it'll be light rail, not the "people mover" idea. Having individual cars for people to ride in is sooo Long Island. And anybody know what the Jones Beach bus schedule will be this year for LI Bus, or are they canning the JB routes?
BTW, my new BAHN file (lirt.nt3) is now in the BAHN files are here at nycsubway.org. LIRT stands for Long Island Rapid Transit.
It is a propsed rail transit system that serves Nassau and parts of Queens (so far). I would appreciate if any of you are interested to take a look at LIRT and tell me what you think (any suggestions, improvements,etc). Thanks to David Pirmann for posting it on nycsubway.org.
---L---I---R---T--->
[It gets me so mad that in a county with so many upper middle and upper income people that Nassau can't afford a better transit system. There is plenty of money for LI Bus here from the many residents
of Nassau county who have. And also, what is up with the Hub light rail system? Are we going to ever get it, and hopefully it'll be light rail, not the "people mover" idea. Having individual cars for people to ride in is sooo Long Island. And anybody know what the Jones Beach
bus schedule will be this year for LI Bus, or are they canning the JB routes?]
Nassau certainly has many affluent people, but I suspect that most of them have never ridden a bus since their school days. It's the old "what's in it for me?" syndrome. Because these affluent people don't use transit, indeed can't even conceive of themselves doing so, they see no need to support better service. Some of the more enlightened sorts may have come to the realization that many people *do* use transit and therefore it's an essential component of the economy. But theirs is likely an uncommon viewpoint among the upper crust.
I haven't heard a whisper about the Nassau Hub light rail plan in months. My guess is that the county's fiscal woes have pretty much shelved the idea. As far as Jones Beach is concerned, it's a reasonable assumption that the service is a big money-maker for LI Bus, and these fiscal woes won't stop it this summer.
Well we all know that LI Bus service stinks. Service from this area to Roosevelt Field (via the N27) is pretty poor, with buses only running once an hour and stopping at 6:30pm, and that does not run on Sundays.
That transportation problem is not just confined to this area, but has problems all over the county. I've written a great many letters to LI Bus about expanding service to the congested area of Roosevelt Field, but they have not done anything about it.
And even if they did, LI'ers are always in a rush and would find the bus too slow. Perhaps a system of express buses should be set up.
Or how about an even farther out idea? How about designing a rail transit system for Nassau county? Well I have, it's Long Island Rapid Transit (LIRT) and it is now available in the Bahn files directory in nycsubway.org. I know the lines would cost alot, and there'd be a ton of opposition, but I honestly believe we'd be much better off with them. Also, Glen Cove and Long Beach are the two cities in Nassau county. Long Beach has a city run bus service which is good. Why doesn't Glen Cove?
The main problem is the car culture here in Nassau, as well as Long Island as a whole. LI'ers in general want everything their way, and the car helps keep them seperated from other people and is a status symbol they are obsessed with. Unlike people who live in NYC, LI'ers have this attitude about transit (both rail and bus) that it is dirty and slow. They prefer driving, even when it comes to going to NYC.
Basically the rule about LI is, if you don't have a car you can't live here. The LIRR may have poor maintainance, but LI'ers are the ones who make the trains dirty. Then they blame the LIRR.
LI'ers know there's a traffic problem, but they don't want the answer to it. What can I say, when it comes to mass transit, LI'ers will run from the idea like they are being chased by bees.
The names and dates have been changed to protect the
innocent.
Recently a Brighton express left it's southern terminal
seven minutes late. The reasons are unimportant, however
the dispatcher did instruct the train's conductor to make
Church Avenue the next stop after Sheepshead Bay. This in
order to make up lost time.
For those of you unfamiliar with the Brighton line, it's
a wonderful almost straight line on fairly level track.
Built on embankment or in open cut it makes for great
railroading. After leaving the Sheepshead Bay station, the
train accelerated to it's usual 40 or so speed range.
Here's where the fun begins. Speeding through Kings
Highway allowed the train sufficient distance to stretch
it's legs so to speak. Passing through Avenue J this set
of ten R-40's was already pulling ahead of 45 MPH. In
itself that's not unussual. But here's where the story
gets good.
Going North from Avenue M into Newkirk Avenue is a
downgrade. Using this hill as a speed generator those
Slants gathered up momentum in bucketfulls. The motorman
of that particular train was a maverick with the nerve to
hold his controller in full parallel (that's right, NO
feild shunting) all the way through. After clearing
Newkirk Avenue this train had achieved an amazing 54 MPH!
What's more exciting is that on level, straight railroad
this train maintained that 54 MPH. It wasn't until the
curve south of Church Avenue that the actual speed became
apparent. The train lurched through the curve with such
authority that hasn't been felt since the golden days of
Astor Place in the 1980's. Sure the motors were moaning
and the car bodies rocking heavily from the worn wheel
truck hunting, but not much more than at 45. It was really
the lateral acceleration in that curve that let everyone
know: this train is MOVING!
The post Steve put up a few weeks ago detailed how given a
sufficient distance transit cars could attain reasonable
speeds. This was the real world test proving his data's
validity. Reaching 54 MPH using a grade is no surprise.
Holding that speed for another mile on level track is.
Giving credence to the conductor's announcement at
Sheepshead Bay:
"SUPER EXPRESS! Super express, Brighton super express to Manhattan. Next stop; Chruch Avenue. Stand clear of the closng doors."
Interesting. I like the Brighton Speedway, too, but I've never seen R-40's do 54 MPH on that line. I've seen 'em go faster, but not there. (59 on an N between Lexington Av and Queensboro Plaza, but that's a downgrade, then an upgrade through the tunnel. The peak speed was 59. I was fortunate enough to see the speedometer through one of the three holes drilled through the wall of the cab.)
A Question. Did the train ever slow down while passing Kings Highway or Newkirk Avenue, or did they go at 40+ MPH through the whole stretch.
It would have been interesting to see what the TSSPEED program on my TI-86 calculator would have produced. It takes two signal numbers (supplied by user) and the time elapsed between the signals (also) and calculates the estimated average speed between the two signals (S=D/T). The program works great, and sometimes matches what the train's speedometer says.
This motorman was a real rogue, he kept it wrapped from Sheepshead all the way to Church.
If I supply you numbers from a trip, can you calculate for me?
That wasn't a Q train; that was really a QX.:-)
The NX was stupid.
It was a double letter express! And what an express it was!
I always wondered how fast those NX trains ran along the Sea Beach express tracks.
The letter X is used as a suffix to denote express bus routes in Denver.
Erik,
What nostalgia you've brought back! You made my day.
And that's Transit and Weather for today...........
Indeed, Erik. And the next Transit & Weather Together on WCBS is Memorial Day.
And here's an early plug for our upcoming SubTalk Field Trip to Seashore and Boston, the weekend of July 15-16. My co-organizer
Mr. t_:^ is doing a write-up, which will be posted shortly on the Upcoming Events page. Even our friends from BusTalk are invited, as I hope to have our Fishbowl available, for rides both on Seashore property and to downtown Kennebukport (no promises that we'll see former President Bush, however!).
Oooohhhhhh, Wayne's going to love this!:-) That train couldn't have gone that fast while bypassing Kings Highway and Newkirk Ave., could it? Ordinarily, trains doing such a maneuver will slow down considerably, with the T/O honking the horn in the interest of safety.
P. S. Can you imagine just how fast that train would have gone WITH field shunting?
With field shunting it most likely hit 70.
Oh he was sounding the horn alright. He was encouraged to toot: - - 0 - the traditional RR crossing signal. But no, the train never slowed. Which is why......
"The names and dates have been changed to protect the innocent". Or maybe not so innocent?
New York must be the only city where that practice is followed. In Chicago, skip-stop trains never so much as skipped a beat when bypassing stations, and no horns were honked. In fact. I don't believe Chicago's L cars even have or had horns, as I've never heard one being sounded.
Yes and no. I'm pretty sure you're right that the A and B trains didn't whistle (CTA trains have a whistle, but IIRC not a horn strictly speaking) when they skipped stops. It's been a while since they got rid of A-B service, and my stops were usually AB (all-stop) stations anyway, so I can't be sure.
But when CTA trains run "express" -- unscheduled skipping of stops to make up for delays; "battery" runs as they are called on some other systems -- they whistle as they pass through stations they are skipping. Repeatedly and intensely for the entire time they are passing through the station. :^) It makes sense to me -- if the trains are delayed to the point that CTA needs to run trains express, people will be peering over the edge of the platform to see if the train is coming.
[It makes sense to me -- if the trains are delayed to the point that CTA needs to run trains express, people will be peering over the edge of the platform to see if the train is coming.]
Yes, it seems to be a good operating procedure, even if the T/O doesn't see anybody in the station. On the LIRR they use the horn because folks will hang out in the on-station waiting room, so they'll pop out unexpectedly.
Mr t__:^)
On the LIRR and SIR, in parts of the platform where there are no seats, people sit on the platform edge. If you know the sechedule, are near an RR crossing, and are observant, good idea. Otherwise, if the T/O (engineer) doesn't honk, squish.
Back when Metro North was operated by Conrail, trains would just rip past stations at 70+ mph if they weren't stopping without blowing their horns. Ordinarily, Grand Central-bound trains would run on the inner tracks between Stamford and 125th St., in which case it wasn't an issue.
I've ridden on trains in Chicago which ran skip-stop, and never heard any whistles or horns. My aunt said she was on a Red line train recently which ran nonstop from either Fullerton or North-Clyborne to Washington. I'll have to find out if it used its horn.
Some J/Z skip stop T/Os don't honk. Annoying, since somehow hearing the horn honk on anything other than motor vehicles has always been fun for me (subways, RRs [especially engines], ferries).
All right! Way to go! How many "D"'s did it pass?
BTW - Who was that lead motor? #4314? #4246? #4208? #4163? #4230?
Wayne
"Pass" ain't the word.
Sorry Wayne, he can't give you the operating motor's since it might give the name of the innocent away. >G<
At that speed, one might not notice an R 68 at all, maybe a silver streak to the side if it is moving at top speed.
And the emergency brake cord wasn't pulled? Shame on the conductor of that train! 15 MPH leaving the stations, please or I shall fan the brake handle in a socket not meant for them.
05/19/2000
54 MPH on the Brighton Express! Now that's RAPID TRANSIT !!
Too bad WayneR40Slant wasn't a pasenger there. Is this (54MPH) the fastest speed known on the TA so far?
Bill "Newkirk"
BRIGHTON EXPRESS #1
I've been as high as 48MPH (#4314 lead motor, 3-15-1999) on the Brighton Express, but never 54. 53MPH on an R38 was the recent best (#4008).
wayne
My personal bests:
57 on the flats with an unmodified R-44
61 in the 60th street tube and an R-46
54 on the Brighton express with an R-40
Gosh darn it, the "Field Trip" on Wednesday missed that run :-(
Our Slant 40 had all green down the Brighton but I don't think we got much above 40, if we were going that fast. We were probaly doing somewhere between 30 and 40, which made it a pleasent ride.
Mr t__:^)
Cheers to the Brighton Express motormen who on the downhill to Newkirk Av. don't apply their breaks too soon and let the train approach 50!
Operating at that speed is rapidly (sadly) becoming a lost art. Not many current operators ever had the opportunity to do so and fewer feel comfortable in doing so.
Surely there must still be a few motormen out there who are sufficiently experienced with the Brighton Express to know when to let up on the full throttle on that downhill. Back in the 60s, the M and Q R32 Brightliners went flying through the Avenue H area and the downhill, and without fail the motormen knew when to let up on the throttle so as to not have a not too hard braking into Newkirk Av. And this was in the morning rush with over 1000 passengers on each train. By the way, those new Brightliners really moved, I would not at all be surprised if they approached 55 mph on that stretch every time.
Yes, and those R-32s made it look easy to boot.
I honestly wouldn't feel comftorable doing that speed. About the fastest I can get an R32 E train up to is about 45 MPH (D3 track south of 65 St. and in the 53rd St. tube before the upgrade). Anything above that, especially the occasional time I operate in the BMT 60th St. tube, I don't have the balls to go much faster! I refuse to do 50 downgrade with those timers eventhough they are timed for that speed. BTW, there was a serious rule violation here: whenever a train is passing thru a station platform without stopping, it can enter at any speed, but must not pass the leaving signal at the end of the station at a speed in excess of 15 MPH. The TA says that the safety of the signal system is being compromised. A clear violation! And if he/she got written up/disciplined, I guess that person would bitch and moan about the sadistic practices of the TA. FOLLOW THE RULES PEOPLE! Go on the Coney Island Cyclone to get your thrills!
I agree with you about the rules and safety. Way back when we were testing the R-46s after overhaul we'd keep them on the post on D-3 right to 36th street. Amazing that they held the rails so well. That was before speedometers so we used a radar gun for some of the tests. 56 was about the max there.
Getting back to rules, I saw anotice in the Bedford Park Tower about the TA hiring TSSs to catch you not in proper uniform or violating other rules. The notice said "Cover Your Ass". In any event, I took exception to the poster. It said obey the rules so you don't get disciplined. It could have easily said follow the rules and do the right thing. The end result is the same but the message is more positive.
I routinely ride J trains which barrel through skipped stops at top speed. So I guess many TO's vilate that rule.
05/21/2000
As far as this discussion of speed on the TA is concerned, I have one clear memory back in the late 60's. After riding the R-11's on the Franklin Avenue shuttle, I went downstairs to the Franklin Avenue station Manhattan bound side. A speeding train of teal and white R-10's obviously a dead head move speeded through the station so fast that after the last car passed the train kicked up a cloud of dust! No kidding!!
Also since it's a long shot, did the slant end of that R-40 help a little in aerodynamics to achieve 54 MPH ??
Bill "Newkirk"
I love these R-10 speed stories! Unfortunately, I never experienced a Fulton St. express run on them.
05/23/2000
Steve B,
One thing I forgot to mention on that speeding R-10, was that it flew through the station on the local track, not the express !!
Bill "Newkirk"
I have probably several times ridden with you as the T/O on the E, since I rarely see them pass 40 through that tunnel. The one time I saw one go 65 there, it turned out the speedometer was broken. I noticed that when every time the brake was applied, the speed shot up by 30, and kept flickering between two numbers. On the approach to Queens Plaza, it shot up to 97, 98, 99, then blank! Halfway into the station, it flies down from 99 to 0 in about 5 seconds. I believe the car was 3386, which is now located in the middle of a train.
Yes, I did have a car that did that 90-ish speed thing last week. Some are stuck on zero. Quite frankly, I don't pay too much attention to them since I have been moving trains long before speedomoters were installed in NYC subway cars! The air gague is more important to me! I wonder how accurate those speedomoters actually are.
If properly maintained the speedometers are accurate +/- 1 MPH. There are two types in current use. The typr on the R-46/R-68 uses a magnetic sensor that counts the teeth on the bull gear in the #1 gearbox. Therefore, the accuracy of these devices is dependent on the measurement of the wheel and adjusting for wheel wear. However, a minimum size wheel and a speedometer calibrated for a new wheel will yield an error of 2 MPH.
The type used by all other cars is a radar type speedometer. These are checked simply by holding a tuning fork under the sensor. Very little to go wrong here unless the sensor is aimed wrong and it begins to read fluorescent lighting from tunnel walls or from the street below elevated structures.
If properly maintained the speedometers are accurate +/- 1 MPH. There are two types in current use. The typr on the R-46/R-68 uses a magnetic sensor that counts the teeth on the bull gear in the #1 gearbox. Therefore, the accuracy of these devices is dependent on the measurement of the wheel and adjusting for wheel wear. However, a minimum size wheel and a speedometer calibrated for a new wheel will yield an error of 2 MPH.
Over what period of time does this counting take place? Is it a moving average (convolution) or are all measurment periods discrete?
As Richard Nixon said, "I'm glad you asked that question."
One of the design criteria was that the speedometer, when counting up or counting down, would not skip any numbers. Thus even in a 'full service brake' application, the speedometer should count down from say 30 MPH to zero without skipping numbers. To insure the speedometer logic was able to do this and maintain that level of accuracy, the sampling rate was set at 100 micro-Seconds. I hope that this answers your question.
As Richard Nixon said, "I'm glad you asked that question."
One of the design criteria was that the speedometer, when counting up or counting down, would not skip any numbers. Thus even in a 'full service brake' application, the speedometer should count down from say 30 MPH to zero without skipping numbers. To insure the speedometer logic was able to do this and maintain that level of accuracy, the sampling rate was set at 100 micro-Seconds. I hope that this answers your question.
I question that sampling period for the following reason. The precision figures you give would indicate that the sensor would count 30 teeth in 0.0001 seconds. This translates to a rate of 30,000 teeth per second or 1,800,000 per minute. Assuming a higball estimate of 7200 rpm for shaft rotation, this would require 250 teeth on that gear. I think something is wrong somewhere.
Stephen, I know you love to play with the numbers. I tried to find the old specs but couldn't. Perhaps I had the decimal place in the wrong spot and it was actually 100 Milli-seconds as opposed to 100 Micro Seconds. However, I'm confused by your numbers. A new wheel has a circumference of 8.9 feet. At 30 MPH or 44 ft/sec. the wheel turns 4.94 times per second. The bull gear has 117 teeth x 4.94 revolutions per second = 578 teeth per second or 58 teeth per sampling. Try working with those numbers. I think some of your assumptions may be a bit off. Specificly, the # of teeth on the bull gear and the RPM of the gear. Let me know..
Steve
Milliseconds, microseconds - what's 3 orders of magnitude difference! Our difference of opinion over MTBF involves only 1/2 an order of magnitude.
Your numbers make sense for 100 millisecond averaging. This is rougly 2 counts for each mph. I've not seen these R44/R68 in action but these numbers should give good visual performance as opposed to the noticeable lag of the Doppler units.
BTW, I'd expect that with braking rates in excess of 20 mph/s (1 g) that these units would miss a beat. I didn't understand the importance of not skipping a unit design criteria. However, if the MTA wants their operators to see the speedometer to count backwards to zero, when it crashes into a wall, I won't complain. I hope they did not pay too much for this enhanced capability. :-)
Can't help you with the rational for the desire to count each number. The person who wrote the specs. retired in 97 and recently passed away.
As for the 3 decimal error, it was not a mathematical error on my part. It was one of memory. The info on the sampling rate is one that's not necessary to know in maintenance. Speedometers are replaced in the shops and repaired in the lab. I only remembered it because I worker on the prototype in 92-93.
The type used by all other cars is a radar type speedometer. These are checked simply by holding a tuning fork under the sensor. Very little to go wrong here unless the sensor is aimed wrong and it begins to read fluorescent lighting from tunnel walls or from the street below elevated structures.
I would assume that you are talking about a Doppler shift measurement. The wave from the moving train is bounced off a stationary object. The reflected wave is shifted in frequency proportional to the relative velocity. I assume that you are not measuring the tuning fork (transmitter) directly because it is attached to the train along with the sensor to give a 0 relative velocity of the train relative to the stationary object.
How often are such measurements taken?
i've always been fascinated by recording mileage and bicycle speed... as i kid, i once set away for a cheap bicycle speedometer that i saw advertised in a magazine... i was very disappointed when i got a speedometer that had a curved wind vane, that measured speed by the force that the air exerted on the vane... the vane was mounted on a shaft which was connected to the needle on the dial....
I had a Raleigh 3 speed racer with a S&W speedometer on the handlebars. A friend of mine had the one that you refer to. It was an orange or pink transparent plastic. At the time I would have perferred that one since wind speed is more critical when you are peddling. I suppose one of those speedometers would bring a handsome amount on ebay.
steve... i sent mine back to the company... if i was peddling into the wind, it showed i was doing 30 miles per hour... in the magazine ad they never showed exactly how the thing worked...
nowadays, i ride a $35 bike i bought at a yard sale, with a $30 catseye electronic speedometer... i keep track of how many miles i ride each day... i'm curious to see how far i can go in my lifetime before some component of my inner machinery fails or before the next motorist opens their driver's door in my face...
Sorry about that Paul. Next time I'll check my mirror.
at least you said you are sorry... about a year ago, a young woman opens her car door in my face and i hit the door and went flying into the street... i wasn't hurt, but she starts screaming that there was a scratch on her new car's door... she didn't ask if i was hurt... she continued to curse... i told her to call the police, if she felt she had suffered damages... she huffed and puffed some more, and finally told me to be more careful... i got really angry with that, but just shook my head realizing that she wasn't concerned about anything but herself..
I had a similar incident that happenned while I was motorcycling several years ago. I got my right knee banged up a bit, but I survived otherwise. Needless to say, that is one of the reasons why I gave up the two-wheeled motor vehicle for the four-wheeled tank that I now drive.
Doug aka BMTman
...and it IS a tank...you should wash that thing in the car wash at CI...
Peace,
ANDEE
Since I average 15,000 miles per year on two wheels, I found it makes sense not to ride between cars at any time. In fact we have a nick-name for people who do ride between lanes of traffic.......Future Organ Donors.
Be careful.....If you get killed I won't have you to pick on.... :)
Steve
steve... i didn't know that you rode a motorcycle, which is what i am assuming you put 15,000 miles a year on... i put about 4,000 miles on a bicycle... i do not ride between cars in moving traffic like the bike messengers in the city... i have driven cars and a delivery truck for enough years to put too much faith in some motorists awareness of my presence on the road...
i have been thrown from the bike at least 4 times by driver's opening their car door to alight from their vehicle... one of the times i fractured a rib...
thank you for sharing my concerns about my safety... subtalk wouldn't be the same for me if i was dead..
Motorcycling for 30+ years. 4K on a bike is quite a feat.
i use the bike to go from appointments and to go from place to place... i average 10-15 miles per day, but i only average about 10 mph, so it is not aggressive riding...
just to compare stats: my mdbf** with a new set of tires is about 1500 miles...
i rode on the back of a motorcycle only once... the driver told me not to lean into the turns... i was unconsciously doing that... i might consider riding on a motorcycle again, if they put training wheels on it... it's too scary for me..
**mdbf= mean distance between flats...
Honda makes the Goldwing in a 3 wheel version. With AM-FM-CD, Passenger intercom, cruise control etc. figure around $30,000. On the other hand I'm rebuilding a wrecked CB550 which will include a side car.
BTW - I had the opposite problem when learning to fly a glider. While thermaling I tried to keep my head vertical despite the fact that my body was at about 45 degrees. When I started to get dizzy from restricted blood flow, I got the message.
In a feeble attempt to get this thread back on topic...
I wonder if this will be a problem on the TILTING Acela Express?
I doubt that the tilt train tilts as much as a Shweitzer 2-38 or similar plane. While thermaling over Kendal, Fla. recently our turns were so tight the buzzards were flying outside of us. Speaking of relevance, the tilt train will never replace the fun of the Auto-Train. I think the Autotrain is one of this countries truly great railroading experiences.
I've never done the Autotrain, but my parents loved it.
My all-time favorite railroad experience (well, that I can talk about :-) was riding the Eurostar from Paris to London through the Chunnel. Yes, I could tell it was tilting at first, but you get used to it quickly.
My all-time favorite railroad experience (well, that I can talk about :-) was riding the Eurostar from Paris to London through the Chunnel. Yes, I could tell it was tilting at first, but you get used to it quickly.
Technically speaking, it's the trackbed that tilts, not the Eurostar. There are no tilting TGV varients--if you want to ride a tilting train, you'll need to visit somewhere in Europe other than France.
CH.
[I've never done the Autotrain, but my parents loved it.]
I've taken the Autotrain to Florida twice, and found it very enjoyable. One caution, however - since many of your fellow passengers are on their way to Walt Disney World, there are a LOT of young children on the train. Don't expect to get much sleep if you ride coach. I suggest taking a sleeping car and bring earplugs!
Many of your fellow passengers are on their way to Walt Disney World.
I'm surprised - I always assumed that the AutoTrain's clientele was largely senior citizens.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For the novice, The Goldwing is like the Cadallic of motorcycles.
As it turns out, I have a riceburner -- a 1985 Honda Nighhawk 650. It hasn't been used since 1995. It has low miles and am considering selling it.
What kind of bike do you have Train Dude?
Doug aka BMTman
Three right now. I have a rebuilt '74 CB360. I'm rebuilding a a '78 CB550K and for my real riding I have a Shadow VT1100 Cruiser.
A Shadow VT1100 Cruiser? Verrrry nice ride! Do you have it decked out with stereo speakers on the fairings and all that jazz?
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Doug. Just bags, windshield, CB & a light bar. Those other frills cost money.
"For the novice, The Goldwing is like the Cadallic of motorcycles."
Aw cmon Doug, the Harley has always been considered the Cadillac of motorcycles.
I just meant in the Honda brand it's a Cadallic.
Sarge, Going cross counry a few years ago, only one Harley owner from my club even attempted it. By the time the Grand Canyon was reached, his Harley was wearing a diaper because of the oil it was spewing. (Although the Goldwing interstate on the trip fried the alternator stator). But I'm sure you heard the old saying:
Ride a Harley - Ride the best
Rida a mile and walk the rest. :)
That was true of the Harleys from the '70s and early '80s, but not any more. My nephew is setting out this weekend on his fourth grand tour of the USA and Canada on a Harley, riding over 11,000 miles during the next three weeks. He's made three similar trips, between 7000 and 10,000 miles in length, on the same bike (a '96 model he purchased after graduation from high school). As far as I know he hasn't needed to make any major repairs to the bike since he purchased it new, although since he helps run the parts department at a Harley dealership in Detroit I'm sure it has the best maintenance. He tows a two-wheel trailer on these trips but that's just for "souvenirs and dirty laundry", as he puts it - no spare parts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He's very lucky, even the new ones with the Evolution engines break down alot.
Does Honda actually make a Goldwing trike? I know there are companies that convert Goldwings into trikes but I didn't think Honda actually made one new from the factory.
Ah Jeff, you have me there. I was up at West Point 2 weeks ago and 2 of them rolled into the parking lot. They were so similar that I assumed they were stock. I've never seen one on a showroom floor but then again that's a lot of cash to tie up when a catalog pix does almost as well. BTW, I seem to recall that Mile Tyson bought one on the spur of the moment once. That would have to be stock in that case.
........is any speedometer on any equipment ever 100% accurate ?? even on buses cars and small vehicles...??!!
to give you a real technical answer from a mathematician's viewpoint ( which i am NOT ), velocity at any given instant in time requires a very very small time interval of measurement of the distance travelled.... the closer it is to zero, the more accurate the speed will be
on a practical level... train dude pointed out that just the difference in wear on the wheel might account for inaccuracy... in cars, i'm sure that differences in tire size matter... on the average speedometer driven by a mechanical cable, i doubt if the needle will be 100% accurate...
i guess if you have an accurate stopwatch, and the road has mileage markers, you could observe the time it takes to travel a mile, and convert that into a speed...
if my answer is confusing, don't worry, i don't really know what the hell i am talking about...
Tire size on an automobile will have an effect on speedometer error.
30+ years on a motorcycle is impressive... do you know that besides his interest in losing at the racetrack, abbott & costello, and looking for remnants of the elevated lines in brooklyn, the sarge, jeff rosen, is into motorcycles pretty seriously also...
i rode on the back of a motorcycle only once... the driver told me not to lean into the turns... i was unconsciously doing that... i might consider riding on a motorcycle again, if they put training wheels on it... it's too scary for me..
i use my bike to go appointments with people i tutor and to go to visits to the emergency room at the psychiatric hospital ... i average 10-15 miles a day, but i only average about 10 mph, so it is not aggressive riding...
just to compare stats: my mdbf** with a new set of tires is about 1500 miles...
**mdbf= mean distance between flats...
speedometers are only somewhat a mesure of speed right ??......
speedometers sort of have two major uses... they do give a measure of speed... and the odometer part records the number of miles travelled... in some ways people talk more about the total miles travelled... when someone calls an automobile program like cartalk, they will invariably give the mileage on the car... yet people will often brag about the speed that they went late at night on the parkway... or how many miles per hour over the speed limit you can go without getting a ticket..
i always get a kick watching the odometer make a major change from 9999.9 to 10000.0... in fact today on my bike the odometer turned to 5000.0 miles...
I'll second that. Come late July or early August, my Jeep's 7-digit odometer will roll to 400000.0. That'll be worth a few beep-beeps on the horn.
I was referring to the Doppler type. As far as I know, the criteria of being able to count all numbers was the same but since I was not involved with the implimentation of the Doppler system, I do not know the refresh rate of the system. I do know that the Bach-Simpson (doppler) speedometers do occassionally can be seen skipping numbers.
I do know that the Bach-Simpson (doppler) speedometers do occassionally can be seen skipping numbers.
With max acceleration/braking rates reduced to 1 to 2 mph/sec that would imply that the minimum interval between readings is once per second.
My own anecdotal experience has been to see these speedometers remain at 3 mph for "several" seconds after a train had stopped at a station. I attributed this lag to excessive averaging on a differentiator circuit. However, no such methodology is usually required for Doppler measurements. So, I'm a bit puzzled by the sluggish performance.
I always attributed the sluggishness you refer to as incorrect refresh rate. It really isn't a big deal operationally. But I've also seen doppler units that continue to read 4-5 MPH when sitting over an inspection pit. They apparently read the fluorescent light.
I always attributed the sluggishness you refer to as incorrect refresh rate. It really isn't a big deal operationally. But I've also seen doppler units that continue to read 4-5 MPH when sitting over an inspection pit. They apparently read the fluorescent light.
I have not witnessed enough of the Doppler units to identify malfunctioning behavior. The units I've seen show every sign of using an overdamped readout. This is usually done to reduce jitter and noise. Doppler is notoriously subject to interference. Quite possibly the manufacturer used this technique to average out such interference. This would not work on the inspection pit because the interference is steady.
The operational problem is that the train operators tend to believe that the reading is current. They overcompensate by reducing train speed too much when approaching yellow aspects and speed control signals. My preliminary studies indicate that this may prove to be an important factor in reduced service capacity.
The operational problem is that the train operators tend to believe that the reading is current. They
overcompensate by reducing train speed too much when approaching yellow aspects and speed
control signals. My preliminary studies indicate that this may prove to be an important factor in
reduced service capacity.
They should have never put those stupid things in the cabs.
While it seems cool to know exactly how fast the train is
going, it also means that supervision has an excuse to bust
a t/o for the slightest speed infraction. That, coupled with,
how shall I say this, the firm disciplinary practices of recent
years have train operators scared.
EngineBrake has pointed out in the past the motivational structure
that results in slower service. There is no reward for running
on time or ahead of schedule...in fact, running ahead just gets
you the holding lights at the nearest gap station. If you come
in a little late, even 5 or 10 minutes, there's not much punishment.
Perhaps you will get harassed by the dispatcher "where did you
lose your time?" but they have no real way of pinning a specific
rules violation on the crew just because they were late. The
proper answer is "door holding". On the other hand, running behind,
especially when congestion compounds the delays and results in
very late trains, an extra trip, etc., can mean overtime $$$.
P.S. Motormen were able to negotiate timers for 70+ years without
speedometers. Hopefully, they have not diluted schoolcar training
so much that they teach new t/o's to rely on the speedometer!
With max acceleration/braking rates reduced to 1 to 2 mph/sec that would imply that the minimum interval
between readings is once per second.
Wow, I'm shocked Train Dude didn't give you the long buzz for
that one. The rates haven't been reduced. Still 2.5 acc,
about 2.9 full service and about 3.2 emergency.
I missed that completely Jeff.
So did you get a "final answer" on the mystery numbers
printed on the trucks?
No I didn't Jeff. Aside from the GO related to the asbestos deal, I spent the better part of the day dealing with a broken spring switch (the only one in the system) and some serious employee problems. Hopefully Tuesday I'll have the opportunity to call.
Steve
There's a spring switch? Where??
The car wash track in Concourse Yard. Steve, where is asbestos located in these scraps? Underbody wiring or weather insulation?
Engine Brake: I have no idea where the asbestos is located. I suspect that there may be asbestos in the magnesite flooring. I'll find out once the work actually begins.
Jeff H.: The spring switch is beyond the car wash in concourse yard. It's referred to as 99 switch. Trains pass the car wash on a parallel track, passing over the spring switch in the reverse direction. The switch then causes the train to return thru the car wash. It's usually one of the first thing visitors to Concourse yard want to see. Currently, it is out of service while parts for it are fabricated in Pennsylvania.
Jeff H: The answer to the numbers stenciled on the trucks straight from the Coney Island Truck Shop Superintendent is not as I originally believed. Those numbers are actually a code taken from a tape gauge. They indicate via a conversion table, the size of the wheel so that wheels cab be matched when the truck is assembled. Frankly, I thought my answer sounded more logical but I'm assured that his is the correct one,,,
It's usually one of the first thing visitors to Concourse yard want to see.
I wonder why? Spring switches aren't that fascinating, it's just
that NYCT doesn't use them. Is there actually any mention in
the rulebook? Do train crews understand why you can't change
ends there?
indicate via a conversion table, the size of the wheel so that wheels cab be matched when the truck is assembled.
Frankly, I thought my answer sounded more logical but I'm assured that his is the correct one
Yeah, I thought so too :) By matching, do you mean putting the
same wheels back in the same sequence, or making sure all the
wheels are the same size?
Train Dude,
Isn't there some sort of spring switch on the Franklin Shuttle as well, just after Botanic Gardens headed toward Prospect Park to shift trains from O2 (Malbone Street track) to O1? I seem to remember reading about a spring switch there.
subfan
The rates haven't been reduced. Still 2.5 acc, about 2.9 full service and about 3.2 emergency.
Actually, I observed the speedometer and motorman's actions and timed the acceleration and braking with my stopwatch. This is what has made be suspicious about the speedometer behavior.
I've also stood outside in a station and timed how long it takes two cars to pass from a standing start. The acceleration is between 1 and 2 mph/s. If it's still 2.5 mph/s, nobody has informed the train operators.
Ooooh, empirical data! Now we're cooking!
On tangent, level track and with no "dead motors" (cars with
propulsion failures) in the train, it should accelerate at 2.5mphps.
However, with the field shunting disabled, that acceleration rate
will fall off at about 20 MPH. There is "soft start" but that
shouldn't make more than a few % difference in the overall measurement
The in-station timing seems hard to dispute. You are starting from
a known velocity (0), you know the distance covered (2 car lengths)
and you know the time it took to cover it. I'll mention that
t=.5at^2 in case it amuses heypaul. I'll try to reproduce your
results. The only "excuse" I could think of that would lead to
the lower acc rate numbers is that the m/m didn't wrap it up
leaving the station, or there were a few dead motors in the train.
thank you jeff for thinking of me when you rolled out d=1/2at2
as for steven b's lower observed acceleration rate:
1) i think your explanation of a soft start is very valid... 2.5mph/s kicked in from a dead start might really jerk the people on the train
2) d=1/2at2 is valid for constant acceleration, which strictly speaking isn't the case... i would imagine that calculating the acceleration while observing the passage of 2 cars from a stop might require using some other formula...
3) i don't know much about motors (in addition to my first two points ), but would a motor be capable of full acceleration from a dead stop?
One thing I've noticed since GOH is that trains don't jerk the way they used to when power is applied. Of course, the R-44s and R-46s never jerked to begin with.
That 2.5 mph/sec rate of acceleration sounds familiar. All SMEE cars had that rate, didn't they? At least it started with the R-10s.
We got a Slant on the "L" going from 8 Avenue to Lorimer to-day but the fellow driving the train was ultra-conservative in the tunnel, and he didn't get it moving well at all, even when under full green. What a disappointment BUT at the same time, a safe, smooth, steady ride. No charging the timers.
Fastest ride of the day? R38 #3980 between Nostrand & Hoyt (before the GT's nipped it in the bud) probably about 45mph.
Wayne
Ah, yes - 8th Ave. to Lorimer St. I can still mentally picture that run. The funny thing is, when I do visualize it, trains of BMT standards come up.
I have compiled a list of both stations that could be confused with each other and stations that have the same name, but are in different parts of the city.
Todd Glickman, you might want to pass this along to Shadow Traffic. It may help them give more accurate reports when they do report subway problems.
CONFUSING STATIONS
Stations that sound similar, but are in totally different places
Station Name
Confused With
Station
Line(s)
Station
Line(s)
Woodlawn
4
Woodside (61st Street)
7
Woodhaven Blvd
GR J/Z
Ditmars Blvd
N
Ditmas Avenue
F
Hunters Point Avenue
7
Hunts Point Avenue
6
Euclid Avenue
AC
Utica Avenue
AC
Rockaway Blvd
A
Rockaway Parkway
L
Rockaway Avenue
C
Rockaway Park
S
Franklin Street
1/9
Franklin Avenue
C S 2345
Roosevelt Island
Q
Roosevelt Avenue
EFGR
Pelham Bay Park
6
Pelham Parkway
2 5
Avenue N
F
Avenue M
D
Grand Avenue (Newtown)
GR
Grand Street
L BDQ
Grant Avenue
A
36th Avenue (Washington Avenue)
N
36th Street
GR BMNR
Hoyt Street
23
Hoyt-Schermerorn Streets
ACG
Queens Plaza
EFGR
Queensboro Plaza
7N
Broadway
G
Broadway Junction
L
Broadway-Lafayette St
BDFQ
Broadway-East New York
AC
East Broadway
F
Stations that have the same name, but different borough or part of borough
Station Name
Cross Street
Lines
46th Street
Queens Boulevard (Sunnyside)
7
Broadway (Long Isl. City)
GR
Prospect Avenue
Westchester Avenue (Bronx)
25
4th Avenue (Brooklyn)
MNR
36th Street
Northern Boulevard (Queens)
GR
4th Avenue (Brooklyn)
BMNR
Park Place
Franklin Avenue (Brooklyn)
S
Manhattan
23
7th Avenue
53rd Street (Manhattan)
BDE
Flatbush Avenue (Prospect Heights)
DQ
9th Street (Park Slope)
F
8th Avenue
14th Street (Manhattan)
L
Sea Beach Line (Brooklyn)
N
Church Avenue
McDonald Avenue (Kensington)
F
Brighton Line (Prospect Pk. South)
DQ
Nostrand Avenue
2
DeKalb Avenue
Wyckoff Avenue (Ridgewood)
L
Flatbush Avenue (Brooklyn)
DMNQR
Fulton Street
Manhattan
23 45 JMZ
Lafayette Avenue (Brooklyn)
G
Atlantic Avenue
Flatbush Avenue (Brooklyn)
2345 DQ
Van Sinderen Avenue (E. NY)
L
33rd Street
Queens Boulevard (Long Isl. City)
7
Park Avenue (Manhattan)
6
50th Street
New Utrecht Avenue (Brooklyn)
BM
8th Avenue (Manhattan)
CE
86th Street
4th Avenue (Brooklyn)
R
Lexington Avenue (Upper E Side)
456
Central Park West (Upper W Side)
BC
Broadway (Upper W Side)
1/9
79th Street
New Utrecht Avenue (Brooklyn)
BM
Broadway (Upper W Side)
1/9
Grand Street
Chrystie Street (Manhattan)
BDQ
Canarsie Line (Brooklyn)
L
23rd Street
44th Drive (Queens)
EF (Ely Avenue)
Manhattan
CE 1/9 F NR 6
111th Street
Roosevelt Avenue (Corona)
7
Jamaica Avenue (Richmond Hill)
J
Liberty Avenue (Ozone Park)
A (Greenwood Avenue)
Also, when suggesting alternate routes to Yankee Stadium, DON’T mention the C train. It NEVER GOES THERE! (It used to, but now doesn’t.)
Yankee Stadium Service
Line
Times
Notes
4
All Times
B
Weekday Rush Hours
NO SERVICE OTHER TIMES. USE D.
Use in place of D during peak hours, in peak direction.
C
NEVER
C trains run from Euclid Avenue in Brooklyn, to 168th Street in Manhattan. DO NOT USE THIS TRAIN TO GET TO YANKEE STADIUM.
D
All Times
Does not stop here in peak direction during Rush Hours. Use B.
Peak Direction means, of course, to Manhattan in the morning and from Manhattan in the evening.
It really annoys me when the traffic guys say to take the C, D, or 4 to Yankee Stadium, when the C doesn’t even go to the Bronx anymore.
Old habits die hard.
There is one more. Seventy Seventh Street is on the LExington Avenue Line and 4th Avenue Line.
AND - 59th Street (N,R) and various other 59th Streets (A,B,C,D; 4,5,6) etc...
Wayne
I didn't put any Manhattan crosstown stops unless they had the possibility of being confused with a station outside of Manhattan (23-Ely).
You can also add 59th St. on the N/R with an asterisk -- there is no official 59th St. station on the line in Manhattan, only in Brooklyn, but the Lexington Ave. station is often refered to as 59th St. because of the connection with the IRT 4/5/6 there (even though the transfer itself is on 60th St.)
You might as well add 50th Street on the 1/9 line as well.
There is a station on Lexington Av called 59th Street, and also underneath Columbus Circle there's a 59th Street (ABCD). The 59's in those stations are permanently set in tile!
I'm also annoyed when I hear people suggest using the C to Yankee Stadium.
It should be noted, though, that on evenings when the Yanks are at home the D train often is run local in the Bronx -- even during the PM rush.
Chuck
>>>It should be noted, though, that on evenings when the Yanks are at home the D train often is run local in the Bronx -- even during the PM rush.<<<
God forbid we inconvienience the visting yahoos (fans). They may end up at Tremont. Let's screw the daily rider instead.
Peace,
ANDEE
WHAT yahoos...most folks taking the D to YS are from Brooklyn.....or transferring to/from the E at 7th ave....
Those are the excites, I mean altavistas, I mean yahoos.
Yeah but people use the D express daily in the Bronx lose 5 minutes because its running local..........
3TM
You'd loose more from confused passenegers blocking and holding the door in an attempt to figure out what's going on, as well as annoying the C/R and T/O.
Funny you should say that, but I have been having a go at redrawing the NYC Subway map in the style of the London Underground Diagram. Because of the casual disregard for geography (and topology) that is necessary in order to produce a London Transport style map, my first effort would probably be useless, especially to tourists: With same-named stations in different parts of the city, users would need high familiarity with the local geography. Hence the detailed geographical map provided by the MTA.
If the London Underground system had stations named after streets in the same way, the diagramatic map probably would never have been devised (one habit of the British is to name the street leading to the station "Station Road" or "Station Approach". THAT would be confusing :-)
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Maybe if the stations were named after the neighborhoods they served, it woo little less confusing, but then you would have to add directional refrences to distinguish what part of the neighborhood the station serves. Take for example, the #7 line, east of Grand Central.
Riverside, Long Island City West, Courthouse Square, Queensboro Plaza, Long Island City East, West Sunnyside, East Sunnyside, West Woodside, Central Woodside, East Woodside, West Jackson Heights, East Jackson Heights, Elmhurst, West Corona, East Corona, Shea Stadium, Flushing.
All those Easts and Wests would be confusing!
This style appears even more confusing!
R.M.
Your list for naming subway stations on the #7 line would be quite confusing.
BMTJeff
He just said that!
The names have a certain ring to them that you don't get with numbers. Perhaps directions could be suffixed: Woodside West, Woodside Central, Woodside East etc., that way, the locality is given emphasis and then qualified. Alternatively, famous landmarks could be used. I notice that on the SIR, there is not this problem, even though the stations seem quite closely spaced. If anyone has location names for all of the NY Subway stations, let me know, and I can try changing them on my map.
London has similar problems, although fewer. Shepherds Bush, Hammersmith and Paddington all have two sepatate stations. Likewise, there is one interchange station with different names (Monument and Bank). Where street names are used they are often unhelpful. I have been using Goodge Street for years (Tottenham Court Road Central) and have no idea where this street is. It is just an arbirary name. The French go further and give the names of famous people to stations.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
George V station on the Paris Metro comes to mind.
Maybe Shadow Traffic and Metro Traffic should sue Transit for changing the service just so their announements would be wrong.
Don't laugh - Disney once demanded that Transit put the grafitti back in the subway system, so that the theme-park representation could once again be accurate. (Apparently, the NYC subway exhibit was "more believable" with grafitti than without.) Then-president David Gunn told Disney what to do with the grafitti.
I love when people are directed to go to the "Roosevelt Avenue station" on the '7'. Some stay on the train all the way to Flushing in search of one, but there's NO STATION BY THAT NAME on the line! What they want is the elevated 74th Street/Broadway station, which connects to the underground Roosevelt Avenue/Jackson Heights station. Problem is, people assume that two connecting stations have the same name, which is not always the case. There's Lexington Avenue('E/F')/51st Street ('6'); Metropolitan Avenue ('G)/Lorimer Street('L'); Myrtle Avenue ('L')/Wyckoff Avenue ('M'), to name a few instances.
The fact that there are three separate street numbering systems within the city causes a lot of confusion. I was once on a Brooklyn-bound 'R' approaching Rector Street when a woman asked me if it topped at 36th Street. I told her it would be ten more stops. She said she was told it would only be two stops, and she got on the train way back at Lexington Avenue. It was then that we realized she wanted 36th Street and Northern Boulevard in QUEENS, not 36th Street and 4th Avenue in Brooklyn. When I told her it would take more than a half an hour to reverse diretion, she went ballistic. I didn't dare ask her why she waited so long to realize she was going the wrong way.
At the token booth of Grand Avenue/Newtown ('G/R'), an elderly woman proferred me an address in Astoria that betrayed the fact she obviously wanted 30th Avenue nee Grand Avenue on the 'N'. She must have gotten on the wrong train in Manhattan, and wasn't happy to hear she would have to backtrack to Lexington, or change at Roosevelt (or is it 74th Street?) and Queensboro Plaza.
Every day I get the Flushing-bound '7' at 45th Road/Court House Square. At least one a week someone erroneously enters that station instead of the nearby Court Square on the 'G' judging from the fact that by the time we pass Shea Stadium, they realize they're nowhere near downtown Brooklyn.
Here's the list.
Lexington Av (NR) - 59th Street (456)
74th St-B'way (7) - Roosevelt Av-Jackson Hts (EFGR)
Lexington Av (EF) - 51st Street (6)
23rd Street-Ely Av (EF) - Court Square (G)
42nd Street (BDFQ) - 5th Avenue (7)
14th Street (F 1239) - 6th Avenue (L)
Metropolitan Av-Grand Street (G) - Lorimer St (L)
Myrtle Avenue (L) - Wyckoff Avenue (M)
Broadway Junction (L) - Eastern Parkway (JZ) - Broadway-ENY (AC)
Broadway-Lafayette St (BDFQ) - Bleecker Street (Dntn 6)
Delancey Street (F) - Essex Street (JMZ)
Chambers Street (JMZ) - Brooklyn Bridge (456)*
Chambers Street (AC) - World Trade Center (E) - Park Place (23)
Broadway-Nassau Street (AC) - Fulton Street (23 45 JMZ)
Borough Hall (23 45) - Court Street (MNR)
Atlantic Avenue (2345 DQ) - Pacific Street (BNMR)
Franklin Avenue (2345) - Botanic Garden (S)
4th Avenue (F) - 9th Street (MNR)
62nd Street (BM) - New Utrecht Avenue (N)
*(456) station originally called Chambers Street-Brooklyn Bridge. Chambers Street was removed, City Hall was added after the loop station closed. Now called Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall.
Philadelphia has one:
City Hall (Broad Street Line) - 15th Street (Market Frankford Line)
They're not the same station. The Broad St. subway zig-zags around the City Hall foundation (the station is actually at a 45 degree angle to Broad Street and and the building.
15th Street Station (MFSE and Subway Surface) is west of City Hall. If Broad were a numbered street, it would be 14th, so 15th is one block west of Broad. The station is under the intersection of 15th and Market, and is connected to BSS City Hall by a passageway.
When the Market line was opened in 1906, the line curved around the City Hall foundations. Those trackways are partially visible from a streetcar as it rounds the loop into Juniper St. Station (the Third station in the City Hall - 15th Street complex. It is below and south of City Hall. Part of the inbound and outbound streetcar subway tracks were relocated into the old Market trackways to ease the curvature in the Juniper Street Loop area.
The 15th Street (westbound) subway-surface station has, to the best of my knowledge, no indication of its name anywhere in the station. I've been told that this is the case since no one is getting off here (only a short ride from Juniper). Despite this, I've seen people riding this short distance and presumably transferring to the Broad St Subway. My question would be, then, does the station really have a name?
15th westbound lost its signed identity when the station was expanded and the outbound streetcar track relocated to the old MFSE trackways. It's still officially 15th Street (westbound), it just doesn't say it.
Why people would ride from Juniper to 15th is beyond me. The same passageway that connects to Juniper also connects to the MFSE and the BSS. Go fig.
I considered them the same station because there is a free interchange.
Also, has anyone ever noticed that the walk from the BSS to the MFSE westbound is much shorter than to the MFSE eastbound?
Free interchange has nothing to do with it. The stations have different names and are on three seperate lines.
The reason that MFSE Westbound is a shorter walk has to do with where the two lines are and where the BSS turnstyle is. The MFSE in over the BSS at City Hall, so when you climb the stairs, you actually cross over the BSS and exit into the passageway on the westbound side. To get to the eastbound MFSE you have to cross back over the Market tunnel and descend to the 15th westbound Market station.
The passageways are a real "rabbit warren" and are not handicapped friendly. There are a number of stairs in the passages, and making them ADA compliant would be very costly and very disruptive.
Wait a second... All the stations in NYC listed in the original post as having different names were also originally different stations. They just have been connected to each other since the merger of the three systems into the NYCTA in 1940. In fact, most interchange stations have two separate names. Once in awhile by coincidence or because they were original BMT, IND, or IRT planned interchanges, they have the same name (but even that, not always).
You forgot 14th St. (ACE) - 8th Avenue (L)
Or 42 St (ACE), and Times Square (1237NRS)
There are more than 3:
Manhattan-Bronx
Williamsburg
Queens
Western Brooklyn
Southern Brooklyn
Rockaways
Also smaller systems such as:
Broad Channel
Sea Gate
Brighton Beach
Paerdegat
East Canarsie (Flatlands System)
New Dorp
Edgewater Park
College of Staten Island
There are also alphabetical naming systems that deserve mention (these are the only ones I know of):
Manhattan Beach
Gerritsen Beach
Greenpoint
Breezy Point
Forest Hills
And if we go regional, we cannot forget the numbering systems of Jersey City, Bayonne, and North Hudson County.
You forgot Flushing.
Ash, Beech, Cherry, Deleware, Elder, Forty-Fifth, G, Holly, I, Juniper, Kalima, Laburnum, Mulberry, Negundo, Oak, Poplar, Quince*, Rose.
*I pronounce it "keen-se," like the Spanish number 15.
You forgot Flushing.
Ash/Avery, Beech/Blossom, Cherry, Dhalia/Delaware, Elder/Elm, Forty-Fifth, Geranium, Holly, Juniper/Jasmine, Kalmia, Laburnum, Mulberry, Negundo, Oak, Poplar, Quince*, Rose.
*I pronounce it "keen-se," like the Spanish number 15, spelled exactly the same.
Rego Park has a bunch of Crscents in alphabetical order (View from Alderton heading East - Ellwelle, Dieterle, Cromwelle, Boelsen, Asouth, 64th RD, Asouth, Boelsen, Cromwelle, Dieterle,Ellwelle, Fitchett).
RE: the C to Yankee Stadium
You guys would be surprised how many times we arrive at Ditmars Blvd. in Astoria and I have a passenger approach me with directions written out that say something like: Take the G or N train to woodhaven Blvd., 63rd Drive, etc. The N and R switched terminals in Queens in May 1987. That's 13 years. I guess old habits really do die hard.
Or sometimes the habits never die at all..just a couple of years ago the city FINALLY caved on Sixth Ave/Ave of the Americas, after NOBODY had called it "Ave..etc" for 50 years.....And I bet the Northbound terminal of the 2 is still called "241 st- White Plains Road" by most folks...Anybody think of any more? oh yeah- the building that houses NBC is STILL the RCA building to me.....
The city finally caved on that a decade and a half ago!
If the name had not been so unwieldly, it would have made it in.
Do you know anyone who calls Park Avenue South, Fourth Avenue? Or York Avenue, Avenue A?
Do you know anyone who calls Park Avenue South, Fourth Avenue? Or York Avenue, Avenue A?
In the latter case, yes: Donald Fagen. (Although he may have done it just for the rhyme....)
-- Tim
Are you sure he wasn't talking about Avenue A?
What I mean is the part south of 14th that's STILL CALLED Avenue A.
[ [ Do you know anyone who calls Park Avenue South, Fourth Avenue? Or York Avenue, Avenue A? ]
In the latter case, yes: Donald Fagen. (Although he may have done it just for the rhyme....) ]
What rhyme?
If only there were MORE resistance to name changes, especially dopey corporate name changes!
It is the sign of a weak and possibly diseased mind for anyone to refer to the Meadowlands Arena as "Continental Airlines Arena."
Ferdinand Cesarano
Sorry, I couldn't do it. Maybe I could get a Subcotine patch that would let me quit, because I can't leave SubTalk cold turkey and I'm not going to have one lamebrain ruin it for me.
As for the substance of my response:
It wasn't called the Meadowlands Arena, it was called the Brendan Byrne Arena.
The original name was Brendan Byrne Arena.
The official name at the time it changed to Continental Airlines Arena was Meadowlands Arena.
And I am honored that you even considered leaving on my account. Maybe next time. Since you're staying, I won't let one smug, loudmouth, wiseass boy ruin it for me.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I obviously did not consider leaving on YOUR account, when did you ever cross me?
What about Woodlawn Road !!!!
There never was such a thing
What about Woodlawn Road !!!!
There never was such a thing
Woodlawn Road was the former name of Bainbridge Av as it was mapped in 1893 from East 205 Street north to Jerome Avenue at Woodlawn Cemetery. (History in Asphalt;Orgin of Bronx Street Names)
Larry,RedbirdR33
It was also called Second Avenue, but not that portion of it.
If you wanna add one more, kind of: Van Siclen Avenue (A, C) and Neptune Avenue/Van Sicklen (F), both in B'klyn. Of course, the "Van Sicklen" was separated from Neptune Ave. sometime in the early 1990s; the most recent map I have with the full name is from September 1990.
Whoops...forgot Van Siclen on the J/Z line as well, a short distance from the IND station.
Also Van Siclen on the 3. A short distance from the A,C. In fact if you get off @ Van Siclen on the A, and look north you will see the BMT station. If you look south you can see the IRT station..........
3TM
Also Van Siclen on the 3. A short distance from the C. In fact if you get off @ Van Siclen on the C, and look north you will see the BMT station. If you look south you can see the IRT station..........
3TM
The only truly confusing ones are the ones where both stations with the same name are on the same line such as 7th Avenue on the D or 36th Street on the R. The others are less of a problem unless you are from out of town.
I really don't see the "problem" you are trying to solve here.
On the issue of "confusion", for every halfway-decent example of potential confusion which you show on your chart ("Queens Plaza" and "Queensboro Plaza"; "Rockaway Blvd." on the A and "Rockaway Ave." on the A/C), you show several more which in reality pose no problem whatsoever.
"Woodlawn" and "Woodhaven Blvd".? "Roosevelt Island" and "Roosevelt Ave."?? "Avenue N" and "Avenue M"?!?!? Who makes these errors? No one I have ever met, heard, or even overheard. And I have encountered and directed many lost, confused people in the subways over the years.
Of course, in a city of millions I am sure that SOMEONE has made the above errors. But, I can tell you that your chart is the first I have seen any of them.
Also, it seems bizarre to include examples like "Franklin St."-"Franklin Ave." and "36th Ave."-"36th St.". I think that "Avenue" and "Street" are sufficiently established, so that confusion between them is rare. How many meetings sheduled for "X Ave. and Y St." leave one party waiting futilely on Y Ave. and X St.? Not many at all, I would wager. (And I live in Woodhaven, Queens, where the avenue and street numbers are both in the 80s and 90s!)
Futhermore, your chart didn't include the multiple "14th St.", "57th St.", or "96th St." stations in Manhattan, but it did include the two stations called "Woodhaven Blvd." and the three called "111th St." in Queens, as well as the two called "Church Ave." in Brooklyn.
Those Manhattan sets of names are not any more or less confusing than the sets of names from Queens or Brooklyn. In Manhattan, in order to differentiate, you simply say "14th St. on the A" as opposed to "14 St. on the F". Likewise, in the other boroughs, you simply say "Church Ave. on the D" as opposed to "Church Ave. on the F", and "111th St. on the J" as opposed to "111th St. on the A".
And, to the extent that any of them *are* confusing, it is only because of the lack of secondary names. If all stations had secondary names, you would never have made that chart in the first place. ALL station should have secondary names.
Some stations currently do have secondary names, and some are even known *primarily* by their "secondary" names. No one confuses "42nd St.-Times Square" with "42nd St.-Grand Central", since each has a well-known secondary name.
Some stations had historical secondary names, like 111th St-Greenwood on the A; and some had landmark-related secondary names, like Woodhaven Blvd.-Slattery Plaza which later became Woodhaven Blvd.-Queens Mall. These should be restored.
And for all other stations, the secondary name would just be the cross-street. Two stations officially named "36th St.-Northern Blvd." and "36th St.-4th Ave." would be very unlikely to be confused for one another.
So, nice work on the chart. But, you are addressing a "problem" which, in my view, is extremely minor, if existant at all.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Some stations had historical secondary names, like 111th St-Greenwood on the A]
To what did the Greenwood refer?
Greenwood Street, since renamed 111th Street.
Many moons ago the D train ran to Coney Island over the Culver Line...from Broadway-Lafayette south to Coney Island. Just for memory sake! Thjere were TWO Sventh Ave. stations on the same line then..7th Ave-53rd In Manhattan and Seventh Ave at (9th St I think in Brooklyn).Also many moons ago I lived in Cypress Hills and often did business at l0lst and l0lst in Ozone Park!
Don't forget 86th St on the N Sea Beach.
As to the C train stopping at Yankee Stadium, see the TA official C train web page at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/cline.htm
This has been unchanged since the B C switch happened.
Many, many, many, many times I see people who plan on going to Rego Park (I guess for the "SEARS")get confused at the 65st and think they passed it, or that was it, or something along those lines. Explaining that the 'streets' intersect ávenues', roads, and drives and the numbering is different is impossible to some Manhattanites, who deal only with 'street' and ávenue'. Then again, these are the same people who wait for the R even though the Es and Fs are going local, or run off the R when they say Äll trains running express to Roosevelt Ave".
Whenever the LIRR encounters big delays in the East River tunnels during the evening rush hour, there are bound to be many people getting off the E at Jamaica-Van Wyck and looking unsuccessfully for the LIRR station.
Not sure when it was posted, but it appears to be new:
http://www.septa.org/reports/cb01.pdf
...lots of interesting stuff, including details about cab-signalling the MFL, installing CBTC on the subway-surface track, replacing the Silverliner II and IIIs, and upgrading the Silverliner IVs.
Sorry if this was noted earlier - I hadn't seen it before.
They've put up signs at 30th St and 15th St MFL stations with more details about the ATC project, so the project actually appears to be underway.
The signs also mention a new traction-power return system being installed. I assume this is referring to new wayside power equipment to take advantage of the M-4's regen braking. Neat.
the low ridership figures in the first weeks of operation suggest that the presence of the security guard was to intended to boost ridership figures...
or perhaps to provide company for the train operator, to keep them from feeling like they were
operating a ghost trolley...
I think the guards were placed there as alien robot drones to watch over and learn about our race. They take advantage of their high seating position to sudy the behavior of people who take light rail.
Daily reports are sent back to the mothership via the pantograph that also serves as an antenna. Using these reports, the aliens send down more drones like Ross Perot and Jesse "The Mind" Ventura to see if they could win the popular support of the people to prepare for their future landing and peaceful takeover of the world.
-Daniel
Hey, people from JC are not aliens, I repeat THEY ARE NOR ALIENS!!.
:-)
aRTI
Hey, people from JC are not aliens, I repeat THEY ARE NOt ALIENS!!.
:-)
Arti & sorry for misspelling
Don't be so sure. In the 1990 Census, ten percent of Jersey City's population was classified as "other" (seriously, this was also a problem in California, resulting in redefined categories this time out).
In the race section of the census, I checked other and wrote in HUMAN.
i'm getting jealous of all the events that doug,
mark w, david, and others have been hosting...
unfortunately, i have been a bit depressed lately,
and i can't really think of anything i want to
do... i thought of just a get together where we
could discuss the disappointments in our lives... we
could meet outside of some closed movie theater or
abandoned subway station to set the right tone... i
would strongly suggest bringing along some reading
material, or a walkman to help pass the time while
we all stare off into space... it will probably be
an afternoon you will be glad you missed...
date, time, and location will follow as soon as i
can get up the energy to give it some thought... all
suggestions are welcome, but i probably won't be
able to respond to them...
Flat soda ,warm beer, worn out chewing gum. Brady bunch re-runs. a collection of three week old super market flyers. pocket full of quarters , and none of them the new state type. Sitting on an express train and being passed by a local. Being all dressed up , best suit , going to a formal affair, and breaking a shoe lace. Useing the commode and the last person left three sheets of paper. Finding a newspaper with the JUMBLE done. Listening to someone tell how their store gives Double coupons. Getting a seat next to a FOX, and she gets off at the next station. Counting dead batteries between the tracks and lose your spot and have to start over.
Let's channel all our energy (or whats left of it) and explore the Worth St. IRT station. The thrill of trespassing into MTA property will give new meanings to our otherwise meaningless lives.
-Daniel
Worth Street has been open on occasion for Transit Museum tours. That's a much safer and more appropriate way to go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
...OR we could just order a WCW Pay Per View
and stare off into space in mere silence
wondering how aloof we could have been to
trash our hard earned dollars on such
a travesty of mankind.
It's going to be a rainy weekend ... depressing enough by itself. So why not grab your copy of War & Peace and go up to Shoreline at Branford. Doug & Lou from Brooklyn will be going Ding Ding this weekend. They won't mind you staying on the car between trips, but no sleeping because it's bad for the museum's image. Just think back and forth, back and forth down the line with no panhandlers asking you for change & no hoods sizing you up as a mark.
P.S. Transit Transit might stop by, so this could be your opportunity to get in the next segment.
Mr t__:^)
>>no panhandlers asking you for change & no hoods sizing you up as a mark
Nah we just ask for money for the musuem, but I won't get on my knees or sing a song or tell you I'm homeless.
avid reader... thanks... now i understand what that sign on the street meant...
What were the fastests cars you were on? How fast can the R1 and R10s go?
My favorite is the R-38s. They could hit at least 50 on the straightaways. I wish they keep field shunting on those. Just imagine how fast they could go.
I remember on the Lex when I was young, we used to do at least 55 on the express run between 14st and 42nd. Now, I think they should use r-38s or R40s on the D. Remove the wheel. grade, station timers and add field shunting. Imagine how fast they could go.
Oh, BTW anyone know about BART in San Fransciso? Do they have field shunting?
R-9's could do 48 or so on a straight with a good run. Very much like what we have today. R-10's could do 55 under similar conditions. With a hill more.
Your suggestions forget one other critical "wish". Un-Modified brakes. That one, or rather one series of events lead to all the timers, wheel detectors, feild shunt mods, etc. etc.......
Would you remind us again what the reason was for modifying the brakes in the first place?
Several, all revolving in one way or another around money. The costs associated with trueing flat spots off wheels is the largest. Brake shoe wear was a major reason for removal of the inshot valve. Again...money. Lawsuits from the extreme hard stops the equipment of the time was capable of making. Those are the main ones.
I was always surprised that the geniuses never figured out this one until it was too late. The signal system is predicated on a simple formula: signal blocks are spaced apart based upon maximum train speed versus stopping distance for a given area. It's a no brainer that legnthening stopping distances would negate the value of the signal system's protections.
It's possible because no single modification can be laid to blame but rather a series throughout the 1980's that no one put it all together. I doubt it though, as there are quite a few sharp people in CED. But since they aren't neccesarily the decision makers........
I was on an R-6-2 (#1233) that probably did 55MPH, maybe more. The Bull gears were pitched at A 440; it was FLYING.
R10 was very fast too. #3194 on Aug 5 1971 had to be going 55MPH.
Slant R40: can hit 50MPH or more if conditions are right.
March 15 1999: #4314 = 48MPH (Brighton express).
Nov 8 1998: #4399 = 50MPH (14th st Tube)
R38: Dec. 11, 1999: 53MPH through Cranberry Tube; car #4008.
I've been on a couple of R33 Redbirds on the #2 that have been fast.
#8883 was one that got up to 47MPH.
The R44 was fast before they modified them. Now and then one will surprise you: #5408 got to 47MPH on the Fulton express recently.
Wayne
55 mph for the R-10s was like a day at the office.
The fastest cars, at least in terms of acceleration, were the
lightweight BMT cars of the 1930s and 40s, such as the bluebird,
green hornet, zephyr and multis.
AFAIK, New York's subway trains are the only ones which do not have field shunting. Not anymore, anyway. Back in 1981, I was on a BART train which hit 85 along the Oakland portion and 72 in the Transbay Tube.
Maybe I missed it...But what is field shunting ???
Without getting too technical, it's a means of increasing the balancing speed of a DC series motor. It's kind of like an extra set of higher gears on a bicycle.
Would the replacement of the current B type trucks on the R/68 give better breaking and tractive effort? Would the addition of 32 points of conntect allow for higher speeds because of the additional breaking capibilities? Would the completion for the welding rail program make longer intervals between trips to the Shop? Pros and cons please , at least one of each.
avid
avid.... be careful.... you asked for pros and cons, at least one of each... don't carry too much money on you if that is what you want...
Ben'e Verbosus
avid
Ben'e Verbosus?? translation please....
Nice play of words , double-entendre.
avid
NO! I could take any B Division car and by playing with the variable load valves, increase the braking rates 25 to 100% with no trouble. I could adjust the rates in the propulsion logic and do the same witht he dynamic brake. However, the 3.2 MPH/SEC rate just didn't happen. It's been set as a standard because it's virtually the maximum braking rate you can have and still maintain some level of passenger comfort. Even now, if you take a NYCT train moving at 20 MPH or less and apply a full service brake, that 3.2 MPH/SEC decelleration rate is enough to throw people the length of the car or wrench some shoulders. Fortunately, at higher speeds, the effects of that braking rate deminish somehat inversely proportional to the speed.
The trucks are not the issue. The cars are not the issue. Right now the signal system limitations are the determining factor for MAS.
I guess then , that the spacing between signals would have to be changed, signals moved , isolated sections of track changed, and who knows what else. Would the cost justify the time gained over the next 20 or 30 years? The rapid has changed to moderately rapid transit.
Has the welded rails effected truck and wheel repairs? Do you have comparitive lines to show the differences between welded and unwelded lines as it pertains to car maintenance? This has me thinking, are there any lines unwelded ?
It seems a lot of elevated lines are unwelded. Is that to allow for liner expansion ? It seems one question leads to another , then another. Does anyone Know if the #7 line is unwelded on the elevated portion? Both ways? I beleive parts of the tunnel portion are welded.
avid
For those of you who participated in the 'Acela Regional' thread this week, I refer to an article in the Feb 2000 issue of Trains Magazine regarding 'Keystone' service, or the Philadelphia-Harrisburg line:
--track to 110mph standards, upgrading to all welded rail
--1 hr 30 min 'express' service
--rehabilitation of 10 AEM7 locomotives
--construction of 12 push-pull cab-cars, some rebuilt from stored former Metroliner cars
--possible use of the NY & Pittsburgh Subway to bypass 30th St. during NYP-HAR runs
--replacement of PRR position lights with color position lights
--a new station at HIA (Harrisburg Intl. Airport, "MDT")
**Will this mean the elimination of the current stop @ Middletown? And, could this new stop and fast trains mean HIA will become to Philadelphia what BWI is to Washington, D.C. as far as an alternative airport? Perhaps a silly thought, but one I had nonetheless :-) **
--improvments at Harrisburg, Lancaster, & E-town stations
--service to/from Philadelphia's Suburban Sta.
--no engine change in Philadelphia for NYP-HAR service (not clear on exactly how this will be done due to directional change at 30th St., possibly by using cab-cars.)
--death of the ridiculous idea of runnig DMUs beneath perfectly good catenary (possible future use of DMUs for service betw. HAR & Altoona)
--cars up to 'Acela' standards (business class, etc.)
--food service!!!
--elimination of last 3 grade crossings in Lancaster Co.
--target: Spring 2000, providing infrastructure upgrades completed
--costs: $140MM ($70MM from Amtrak, $56MM from Federal Transit Administration, the rest from Commonwealth of PA)
If anyone (Jersey Mike?) has heard anything different since February, let us know.
Visit Trains Magazine here.
KP
Sorry, here's the correct link for Trains Magazine.
Well I just hear scattered rumors so I guess this sounds about right. I'm having a mixed reaction. I'm really going to miss the jointed rail. Its still 155 lb/yard PRR Special out on most of it which is better than any welded rail today*. I love riding on a Keystone with the THUMP-THUMP-THUMP and the train seeming like its going to run off the tracks. The joint-every-20-feet really makes a nice rythem at about 60-70mph. Its better than any band and if I'm standing in the rear vestabule I start tappin my feet. I'm also glad to hear that Amtrak is keeping the PRR signals, just converting them to Amtrak CPL. I think I prefer Amtrak CPL to PRR Yellow PL, but I'm not that sure. Interestingly enough the stretch of track from Overbrook to Paoli was the first on the PRR to get RED stop lenses. I just hope they don't try and CTC the line. Its like last stretch of track in the US still worked under the old paper dispatcher system. The re-use of the Pittsburg Subway will be cool (more work for ZOO) and so will be the use of those wasted tracks at Suburban station (more work for BROAD). Don't know what they think the problem is with those grade crossings. The Amish don't usually try and beat trains. I think they give the line some character.
* Only is new and well maintained.
The Amish don't usually try and beat trains.
No, but the friggin' tourists do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure whether it's the transition from welded to bolted rail, but I sure can always tell without looking, by sound and feel, when we've passed Downingtown! Once you get out of the Philadelphia commuter zone, it sure does get bumpier!
I once rode in the rear vestiblue on a 'Keystone' train through the Hudson River tunnel almost all the way to Newark before the conductor kicked me out. (It's one tight fit!) I was so bummed. I wish I could have stayed there. You must know somebody important or something!
Can you recommend a book or video about the PRR infrastructure? Your talk of signal types and interlockings gets a little bit beyond me, but I'm interested.
I agree the grade crossings lend character. You know when one is coming up by the engine whistle. I guess the Amish don't have enough political clout our desire to try to pass one of those unsafe, accident-contributory whistle-bans. And why try to beat the train when you can join it? On more than one occasion I've sat among the Amish using Keystone trains to travel between points in Lancaster County. That family of 6 or 8 was probably the largest single group to board at an interim (not 30th Street or Lancaster) station in quite some time!
[On more than one occasion I've sat among the Amish using Keystone
trains to travel between points in Lancaster County. That family of 6 or 8 was probably the largest single group to board
at an interim (not 30th Street or Lancaster) station in quite some time!]
Last fall the West Jersey Chapter NRHS ran a trip to the Middletown and Hummelstown. We were a group of 54 that boarded at Middletown for the trip back to 30th St.
That must have been a sight! 54 Railfans filing into the one open vestibule, and then taking over the coach. I would love to have seen the conductor's face at that moment. His eyes must have been wide as saucers as he wondered what decade he had just been transported to! :)
I still wonder if the pending new Harrisburg International Airport station will mean the eventual elimination of the Middletown stop. We'll see, I guess.
Amtrak knew about us and had an extra coach for us. The passengers on the other cars were wide-eyed, however, and we did all file into one vestibule.
Bob
Riding in the rear vestibule is all about luck I guess. I've had conductors not mind at all. Maybe cause the train was pretty full?
Amish ride the trains quite a bit all throughout the amtrak system. Too bad they don't vote (i think). Not that I would necessarily agree with them on too many issues!
What is the NY & Pittsburgh Subway?
For those of you unfamilliar with the Pennsylvania RR or ZOO interlocking in particiular here's what's going on. Being quite forward thinking and being the Standard Railroad of the World, the PRR always went the extra mile to make things better. When most railraods build interlockings they are single level, all the tracks interact on a signle plane. These are easy to build, but certain movements can foul the entire plant and block any other train from passing through. In the early part of the century the PRR realized that interlockings like these would cause massive traffic congestion, so they embarked upon a plan of Flying Junctions and Multi-Level interlockings. This There is also the 'K' ladder, but I don't know where the name came from.
For those of you unfamilliar with the Pennsylvania RR or ZOO interlocking in particiular here's what's going on. Being quite forward thinking and being the Standard Railroad of the World, the PRR always went the extra mile to make things better. When most railraods build interlockings they are single level, all the tracks interact on a signle plane. These are easy to build, but certain movements can foul the entire plant and block any other train from passing through. In the early part of the century the PRR realized that interlockings like these would cause massive traffic congestion, so they embarked upon a plan of Flying Junctions and Multi-Level interlockings. This webpage diagrams it best (scroll all the way down). Now your basic flying junction usually has a pair of tracks go to another level and then fly over/under the main b4 going on their merry way. However lets say the interlocking is slightly more complex and instead of a Y you have a like a Delta. This is ZOO interlocking. ZOO had to route trains to/from 30th St. or Suburban Station or Hi-Line (freight) down the Main Line to NYC or Harrisburg. This is a total of 6 routes all conflicting with one another. To get everything moving ZOO operates on 2-3 levels with tracks twisting and snakeing over one another in a complex system of bridges and tunnles.
There is also a 7th route, the one that allows trains to go right from the NYC main to the "Main Line" to Harrsiburg. Because the north side of ZOO is a 12 track frieght yard, trains bound for the west must travel under the whole thing. The Pittsburg subway is like a leg of a wye junction, underground. It is a single track, but was designed for 2. Because it is a sharply curving underground tunnel there is a special signaling arrangement. Because there is a possibility of lo speed collission due to lack of visibility the PRR installed an automatic signal (in the middle of an interlocking) at the eastern mouth of the subway. It has no number plate and is treated as absolute. There are 3 other subways in ZOO. The New York subway (for trains going from Suburban Station to the NY main), the River Subway (for southbound trains accessing 30th St.) and the Belmont Subway for Reading interchinge freights to access the Hi-Line. A map of zoo can be found at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/zoo.gif
There is also the 'K' ladder, but I don't know where the name came from.
For railroad passengers, this complex arrangement resulted in the use by PRR of North Philadelphia as *the* Philadelphia stop for some thru trains between the Main Line and New York. I find it fascinating that trains such as the famed Broadway Limited stopped at the stark North Philadelphia Station rather than the ornate 30th Street Station. Or perhaps eastbound trains *did* stop @ the more centrally located 30th St. to discharge Chicago passengers before continuing on to New York, while westbound used N. Philadelphia -- there would be fewer disembarking passengers after the short hop from NYC. Can someone let me know. I'd love to see a timetable.
I remember seeing the North Philadelphia Station building from the train as recently as a year or so ago when it was a dilapidated ruin. Now it's been fixed up, and the station has new platforms which do not appear to be connected in any way to the station building. What function does this building serve now? Is it still part of the railroad?
My father rode the Broadway to and from Chicago once a year from late '40's to early '50's. He got on and off at North Philly. The train used the Pittsburgh subway in both directions at Zoo.
Bob
Anybody know the Pennsy was once nicknamed "The Big Red Subway'? I thought the name came from the electrification and traffic density, but another reply adds another reason..the flying junctions to make movements safer and cause less congestion. Just like rapid transit RR';s did. PITY that the grand old PRR has lost most of its identity with the mergers/sales whatever of the last 30 odd years.
Has anyone here ever met the general manager or someone else with a high ranking transit position?
I met Richard White, General Manager of WMATA, exactly one year ago today and got my pic taken with him. Anyone else have similar experiences?
I interviewed Mr. Pendergast (president of NYCT) for WCBS Newsradio-88 on the occasion of the 90th anniversary of the NY subway system.
I met the guy back when the Kawasaki plant was dedicated for the LIRR Bi Levels. I met David Gunn in 1986 and I met Nat Ford RTO chief several times last year.
A number of them over many years, from companies big and small. NYCTA, city agencies, LIRR, PTC, Philly Suburban and some others. But usually through Silver Leaf.
I suppose it would be harder to see higher-ups in a lot of agencies today as they seem to be buffered by a lot more middle managment and flak-catchers.
I once briefly interviewed former TA chief John Gilhooley while he was president of Transport of NJ during the bus strike in the 70s. I was not impressed.
I was fortunate to meet Larry Reuter, President of the NYCT, one day at the Transit Museum while serving as Tour Guide. It was very brief, since he was being interviewed by the Transit Transit Crew and went off to that appointment. I got to shake hands with the gentleman. What an experience to rub shoulders with the President of the TA!
-Stef
I have met Larry Rueter and spoken with him at length a number of times. A real nice, down to earth guy, unlike many of his subordinates. I also have met Tom Pendergast and the President of MNCR (whose name escapes me at the moment).
Peace,
ANDEE
When I got my pic in the Daily News, I met Jack Leary, GM of SEPTA, and got a pic with him. It was on a Monday morning, at the ceremony for SEPTA's new Bombardier coaches.
I had read that Amtrak's Rohr turboliners (at least 2 of them) are currently being rebuilt upstate with 7 more to be overhauled next year. Has anyone seen the rebuilt producy yet? Will they wear the new Acela livery?
Michael B.
I don't know if the turboliners will wear Acela livery (as to preserve their own distinctiveness). But there are being run on the Lake Shore Limited (NY-Albany-Chicago). But you do raise an interesting point as the Lake Shore Limited is one of the lines to be replaced by Acela Regional. Other lines include the Keystone Service, Clockers, Metroliner, Northeast Direct, and Empire Builder).
-Daniel
"Empire Builder"? Where does the Empire Builder run?
James Hill build the railroad across the nothern tier of the United States. The train was named after Hill, and it ran from Chicago to the west coast. That's the Empire Builder.
He meant to say Empire Service, as in Empire State (The nickname of New York State).
An ex-Montana man, now a Noodak here to answer your question. The Empire Builder was the Great Northern's premier train from Chicago to Seattle (with a Portland section) Ran CB&Q Chi Minn-StP, under Amrtak has run that stretch over Ex-Milwaukee. From [actually, St. Paul] to the coast still runs over ex GN trackage. (unfortunatelt the last remnant of the NP North Coast Limited died under Amtrak in l979.) Oh I'm forgetting most of you guys are younger... the EX-GN line is BNSF's north line thru NoDak and MOntana., the south line was the Northern Pacific way back when.
"Other [Acela] lines include the Keystone Service, Clockers, Metroliner, Northeast Direct, and Empire Builder."
No, no, no! Empire SERVICE is going to be incorporated into Acela. The Empire BUILDER is the daily Amtrak train that runs between Chicago and Seattle/Portland. Not empire as in the Empire State, but empire for a western train, as in "westward the star of empire" and all that.
Just to clear up some other easily-confused trains;
Coast Starlight: West Coast "cruise train" from Seattle to Los Angeles
Twilight Shoreliner: East Coast "cruise train" from Boston to Virginia
Twilight Limited -- Midwest day train from Chicago to Detroit
The Turboliners will indeed wear Acela livery and logos-- I thought the proposed scheme shown at the NARP/ESPA meeting in Albany several months ago was quite attractive. (At least, it beats the colors and splotches on the Acela Regional Amfleet trains right now.)
They Turboliners will NOT run NY-Chicago on the Lake Shore. They will run exclusively in Empire Corridor service, and I'm not even sure if they'll run west of Albany, since their higher speed is useless on track that can't support it. 2 are being finished now, but I believe the total will be 7 rebuilt sets, so 5 more (including the single Turboliner that has been operating in service) need to be rebuilt.
Acela Regional will replace Keystone, NortheastDirect, and Empire service. Acela Commuter will replace Clocker service. Acela Express will replace Metroliner service. The riders along the Chicago-Spokane-Seattle/Portland Empire Builder route would be pretty upset if their bi-level train with diner, lounge and sleepers were replaced by Turboliners!
The 2 Vermont trains, Adirondack, Twilight Shoreliner, Maple Leaf, and all long-distance trains (Lake Shore, Silver Service, etc.) will retain their identities.
There's a picture in the July issue of Railfan of the rebuilt Tubro power car in full Acela livery.
-Hank
An anti light rail article appeared in the South Jersey section of Thursday's Phila Inquirer, writter by a member of "Rail Truth Coalition", an anti-light rail organization.
http://web.philly.com/inquirer/2000/May/18/sj/JCOL18.htm
Bob
I fully agree with them. They are right on all of their points. The route was blocked from being in the only place where it would do some good. The Camden-Trenton route is a piece of shit that nobody will ever use. If those fat cats up in the state house could open their eyes and see the people sitting in traffic along the Rt. 55 corridor maybe they would build a transit line where it would actually transport.
I have no idea whether the particular allignment is good or bad or whether anyone at all ever travels from Trenton to Camden or will use this LR to do so; BUT I do know that the calculation in the newspaper article is garbage. Thus, no one can make an informed judgment based on the author's analysis.
The author just grabbed a couple of easily available numbers (provided by NJT) and divided one by the other to achieve an entirely meaningless figure. The author says that the system will cost $711 million over its 13 year life. Since he's combining capital acquisition, construction, and operating expenses, he's mixing apples and oranges; but let that pass. Dividing that number by the 4,650 NJT-projected round trips per day, the author comes up with a "cost" of $152,900 "per daily commuter."
Sounds like a lot of money, but it is really a lot of nonsense. This is not the cost of moving one passenger back and forth once. It is not even the cost of moving one passenger back and forth every day for the next 13 years. It is the cost of doing so before you subtract the value of the ROW, improvements, equipment, etc. at the end of that 13 year period. Unless NJT is planning on abandoning the line at the end of the contract, the value of the asset at the end of the period must be subtracted from the expenditures during the period before anything at all can be known about the economics of the project.
The author also asserts the LR will fail to meet federal safety standards. He doesn't say why or how. Not a hint. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am sceptical of people who make unsuppoted, general allegations. If there is really something unsafe about the proposal, he should tell us.
Bottom line? I don't necessarily favor this project, but I sure don't see any information in the article that would make me oppose it.
The author shows his true colors with this statement:
"Coupled with the fact that the Transportation Trust Fund is due to expire this year and is obligated to pay off bonds even beyond its statutory life, we probably can count on an increase in the gasoline tax immediately after the fall elections."
I can just hear him whining now, 'But I don't want to pay 1.95 per gallon to drive my SUV into the city by myself. I pay enough as it is.'
"We have been told that each time a passenger boards this train, the taxpayer will subsidize 84 percent of the cost of his ride. But that's if the rider even bothers to buy a ticket under the honor system that NJ Transit says it plans to use in its operation."
I guess he's forgotten how subsidized the highways and gasonline is that he uses.
FYI Back in the 70's when the NJDoT paid, PRSL commuter service in south Jersey was failing, the Camden-Millville line had about 300 daily riders. The state paid 300,000$ a year to subsidize the line. That would have been enough to buy all the riders a car.
As I recall, you couldn't get much car for $1,000 in the early 70s.
I need a show of hands to see who is going to the ERA meeting tomorrow. Since I'm a new Subtalker, how do I know who the rest of you are? I'll be pretty easy to recognize. I'll probably be the first one there and I'll have my green backpack and hat. I'll probably be the only teenager there too. Again, I don't want to be at this meeting knowing no one slse there. Also, is it a worthy occasion to bring my camera?
-Daniel
I am 16 and going for the first time as well. And I'll also have a green backpack....Look foward to meeting you.
-Harry
i hope to make it to the meeting tomorrow night... i will be wearing a nehru style straight jacket... there will be at least 3 attendants there to protect me from attacks from my enemies...just kidding, you can usually find me in a corner talking to myself, with my shopping cart full of all my worldly possessions... actually i'll be the guy with a veil over his face and a stack of blank subtalk message forms... i never look anyone in the eye, and i only respond in writing to written questions...
Don't believe anything he says ... he'll be the quite one, i.e. one of the few not makeing all kinds of rapid transit noises (compressors, doors open & closing, brakes being applied, wheels squealing).
Seriously I've been several times & you WILL enjoy it. You can find the SubTalkers by WHAT they are talking about.
Mr t__:^)
Would somebody kindly let me know what the ERA is? I have seen references to it at this site, but always as an acronym. Thanks.
ERA is of course the Electric Railroader's Association. Each major area has a chapter like New York. It is a transit advocacy group as well as a good source of railfan fun. I am not a member yet, but I'm looking to join. This group is based on REAL electrically-powered trains such as subways and light rail, and NOT, I reapeat NOT a group for electric model railway hobbyists. Although most of the members are hobbyists.
-Daniel
Anyone feel free to elabiorate on what I just said, or correct me if I'm wrong.
i've been just trying to find the era website with no success... the electric railroader's association has been in existence for at least 60 years, since they have been publishing their bulletin since 1939... as daniel suggested they are not a model railroading group, and i'd be surprised if many members are into model railroading... new york has its own division, which meets monthly and usually has slide shows... they have occasional trips, one of which is this saturday to the electric trolley museum in scranton, pennsylvania... the new york division publishes a monthly bulletin of upwards of 20 pages with transit news of the new york area and reports from all over the country...i find the bulletin to be an excellent source of news... new york division dues is $30 a year, which includes the monthly bulletin and admission to the monthly meetings... non members are charged $5 to attend a meeting...
The New York Division did have a website at one point ... not sure what the address is since it moved. AFAIK the national (of which I am a member - I've not joined the NYD, though) does not have a website. David Ross, of the NYDERA, posts here on occasion and I'm sure will post the address if he spots this thread.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He does, indeed, post here on occasion (I ought to know, since I am he). At this time, we don't have a website. We had one for a time, but the webmaster went into the military and was unable to donate time to it. We're working on getting it started again, but without people who have time and are willing to donate it, it's difficult.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
The webmaster joined the Marines after moving to the twin cities. As a spouse of a Marine Civilian, these enlisted kids can't have much stuff since they are subject to short notice deployment hopefully to a place with streetcars/subways).
The webmaster joined the Marines after moving to the twin cities. As a spouse of a Marine Civilian, these enlisted kids can't have much stuff since they are subject to short notice deployment (hopefully to a place with streetcars/subways).
heypaul left out a couple of items about ERA meetings.
First of all most members there will be wearing clothes that will be older than you.
Second, chances are that during a slideshow presentation you will get subway car air-compressor and wheel-screeching noises in stereo provided by some of the more ecentric members. Some of the 'sound effects' are actually quite impressive!
Check your sanity at the door!
Doug aka BMTman
05/19/2000
The Electric Railroaders Association usually meets on the 3rd Friday of the month at the auditorium of the College of Insurance at 101 Murray St. in Manhattan. There are transit items for sale on the stage before the meetings get underway. The movie and slides show are top notch, you won't be disappointed. Occasionally there is a guest speaker like tonight's. Meetings usually come to order about 7:30PM. Nearest subway station is Chambers Street on the #1,2,3,9.
Bill "Newkirk"
The midwest equivilant is the Central Electric Railfan Assn. (CERA) They meet Friday nights (I think it's the first Friday) on Wacker drive in Chicago and do some nice field trips. They are planning an all weekend event on Labor Day weekend. You can sign up for one day or all three. I will post more information when it is published.
It's a geological term defined as the three units into which the Phanerozoic eon is divided. Each era begins and ends with a cataclysmic event that causes drastic change in the makeup of the living things on Earth.
The three eras are Paleozoic, Mesozoic and Cenozoic, each is further divided into periods, which in the Cenozoic are also divided into epochs.
A detergent
A real estate company
Almost forgot:
Earned Run Average
[Almost forgot:
Earned Run Average]
Equal Rights Amendment.
Where do the carfloats from Brooklyn go? All to Greenville or so some go to Perth Amboy. I saw some steel bridges there, and I wonder if they still use them.
Brooklyn carfloat photo (Taken by me of course)
-Daniel
[Where do the carfloats from Brooklyn go? All to Greenville or so some go to Perth Amboy. I saw some steel bridges there, and I wonder if they still use them.]
Greenville, exclusively.
05/19/2000
Back when they were scrapping the red R-30's, I was told that there they were being taken by carfloat to a scrapper in Perth Amboy. I tried chasing the area by car but never found the site as well as the red R-30's. This may be it.
Bill "Newkirk"
Does anyone know what the latest news is on the BNSF-CN merger? Is the STB (Surface Trans. Board) still getting in the way?
-Daniel
The STB has put ALL rail mergers on hold for the forseeable future, especially in light of the recent fiascos on UP + SP and the CR division between CSX and NS.
GOOD! I wonder whatever happened to antitrtust laws. Seems they only apply them where they want to and when they do it cost the consumer money. (Breakup of the Bell System for one.) BNSF never should have happened, and once MILW died Evertything from Minnesota to the W. coast was BN-captive: in itself merging GN and NP should have been a trust violation. from an ex-BN conductor/brakeman
Judging from the amount of hits I get, no one cares, but I would just like to say that my NY railfan/photo website, autoexecbat.tripod.com is now down for a complete rehaul, facelift and a move to xoom.com. But even if I had not put up this message, no one would notice the change anyway.
-Daniel
What makes you decide to switch to xoom.com? Aren't both services free?
xoom.com gives me unlimited disk space whereas tripod give me only 11mb. xoom also has less and smaller ads and are not as intrusive as tripod's.
Actually, one can minimize the popup on Tripod and not bother with it. Although, one can bypass the Xoom frame with the use of _XMCM (ie: www.xoom.com/_XMCM/user/index.html).
Crosswinds doesn't have ads at all, but it's pretty slow and it's hard to get through to the ftp server.
Geocities gives you 15mbs, and that adsquare is way better than popup windows.
And you can replace it with a standard ad banner. Even participate in their banner exchange!
Of course, I don't bother with any of that. I remembered that my ISP offers 6 megs of free space.
I've noticed. Just remember to use /_XMCM/ when providing links to a
Xoom webpage.
I have a proposal to create the Subtalk webring where we can bring together all the websites run by subtalkers. All in favor say aye.
-Daniel
I'm game!
R142 Boi 2K
Aye!
I like it! While I am not a webmaster until at least the end of the summer (I need 2 buy a scanner), i would join as soon i built the page.
Aye, but I alos think that the webring should also display clubs ran by subtalkers also.
How is one going to put the webring code into a Yahoo club?
put it in the links section
Then you would have to put a page on which the code resides, at which point you have a site and no longer need to put a "club" on the list.
Here is a question that I'm sure Train Dude could answer.
On the truck frames of SMEE trucks, next to each wheel, are
stenciled markings such as .062 or .081. Sometimes they are
crossed out and marked over with paint pen. What do these
signify? I would imagine it is a measurement of mechanical
wear, but in what...wheel flange thickness, tread depth, etc?
Sadly I can't answer the question positively since I am not a truck expert nor have I ever worked in the truck shop. I can tell you that wheel flanges are measured using an AAR gauge. Flanges measue on a scale 0 - 9 with zero being the ideal size and 9 being the worst. A 5 flange is the highest number tollerable on a wheel used in revenue service. 6 or above, the wheel is sent for truing.
My belief was that the decimal numbers you refer to are used to indicate axle size above the nominal value so that a matching journal bearing can be installed for proper fit when the truck is rebuilt. I will confirm this on Monday. I can tell you that this is done exactly the same way when wheels are pressed onto axles. The wheel bore must be (I believe) .005 smaller than the axle diameter onto which the wheel is pressed. (Don't quote the 0.005" number - it's been a long time)
Oh, that would make sense...sort of (what happens if the axle
is a little below nominal) Let me know when you find out. Thanks!
Since the wheel bores do vary by thousanths of an inch, invariably a set will be found for every axle. If not, the axle is simply scrapped.
1. Did there used to be grade crossings?
2. Do the R-44s have field shunting?
3. Why can I hear diesel engine horns from Tottenville station (In the distance).
4. What is the average speed of an SIR train?
5. That switch on the inside of the R-44s near the door to unlock the storm door, is it on all the R-44s and R-46s behind those metal panels?
6. Why do these R-44s not have that annoying ambient noise or duct-tape stripe on the side, yet the ones on the A do?
7. Why don't they have the sacrificial plastic layer to protect the tinted windows?
8. Why are the places for the panes of glass in that area by the door empty, yet the frame is there (can't put arm there like R-46, can't lean on it like R-44 regular).
9. Why do the horns sound different?
10. Why do the brakes sound different?
11. Are any cars linked?
I can answer some of these:
1. Did there used to be grade crossings?
Yes, and Grand City/New Dorp ran on the street. Eltingville at Richmond Ave there is a sign on the wall about the grade elimination project in the depression.
2. Do the R-44s have field shunting?
The did I believe but I don't know what the rebuild at the CI shops did.
3. Why can I hear diesel engine horns from Tottenville station (In the distance).
SIR has two diesel engines for MOW (Maintenance of Way). One I think is X-Army but not sure.
4. What is the average speed of an SIR train?
Don't know, they don't have speedometers but to move a good pace between Clifton and Grassemere
5. That switch on the inside of the R-44s near the door to unlock the storm door, is it on all the R-44s and R-46s behind those metal panels?
They used to have them before rebuild, don't know if they were covered up or removed. There is also the switch on the outside as well.
8. Why are the places for the panes of glass in that area by the door empty, yet the frame is there (can't put arm there like R-46, can't lean on it like R-44 regular).
Choice of the SIR, removed the glass after the rebuild.
11. Are any cars linked?
Nope, SIR trains can run A-A, A-B-A, A-A-B-A and on yard moves (from Cliftion to the St. George wye) B-A (seen this) with B leading and crew in the storm door with radio.
[they don't have speedometers]
Yes, they do! Instead of the speedometers you would find on an R44 on the A train, the SIR speedometers have LEDs in an arc around a digital speedometer. Each LED lit represents 1MPH, and there are other LEDs in the arc that stay lit to indicate tens of MPH. Look into the cab on the first car of the train and you should be able to see it if nothing is blocking the window on the door leading into the cab.
I stand corrected, its been a long time since my cab ride on an SIR R44. In 1985 I was friendly with a Trainman who let me do the doors home from school.
What hasn't been answered:
I know that the last crossings were eliminated in the 60s, check out the SIR Line by Line tour on this site.
Yes, they do
Like a subway train before field shunting was removed, although they might get higher because of longer straightaways.
They gray stripe is carbon steel, it has to be painted to prevent rust. On the SIR R-44s and the MK rebuilt Subway R-44s, that part was replaced with stainless steel. On the R-46, they were built with stainless steel.
Why isn't there sacrificial plastic on the subway?
In the R-46, there used to be a pane of glass, but it was removed and so was the extra bar. On the SIR maybe they forgot about the extra bar.
As the resident Staten Island Expert, here we go:
1. Did there used to be grade crossings?
Yes. all but the ones on the stretch from Jefferson Ave to Bay Terrace were eliminated in the mid 1930s under the auspices of the WPA.
2. Do the R-44s have field shunting?
Unknown. They can do 50 MPH on the stretch from Clifton to Grasmere
3. Why can I hear diesel engine horns from Tottenville station (In the distance).
Directly across Raritan Bay from Tottenville is South Amboy and the Raritan River, which NJT's North Jersey Coast line crosses on a bridge.
4. What is the average speed of an SIR train?
35-40
5. That switch on the inside of the R-44s near the door to unlock the storm door, is it on all the R-44s and R-46s behind those metal panels?
It was. SIR cars did not recieve the entire rebuild that the rest of the NYCT fleet recieved.
6. Why do these R-44s not have that annoying ambient noise or duct-tape stripe on the side, yet the ones on the A do?
You probably don't notice the noise on the SIR because there's no tunnel, no concrete, and no walls or roof, so there's nothing for the sound to reverberate against. The stripe was regular steel, but was replaced with stainless on the SIR cars. The R46 was built all-stainless.
7. Why don't they have the sacrificial plastic layer to protect the tinted windows?
They replace the windows quickly. No idea why they don't have a coating yet.
8. Why are the places for the panes of glass in that area by the door empty, yet the frame is there (can't put arm there like R-46, can't lean on it like R-44 regular).
When fare collection between stations stopped, vandalism increased, and those windows were removed after they were badly scratched and/or kicked out.
9. Why do the horns sound different?
See 6.
10. Why do the brakes sound different?
See 6. Also, the cars generally run fewer miles with much lighter loads between servicings.
11. Are any cars linked?
No. SIR generally runs 2, 4, or 5 car trains, excepting light trips which may have 6-8 cars. They can be connected in any manner, including A-A-A-A.
-Hank
6. Actually, I can hear that ambience from the street at Broad Channel coming from the A trains.
As Kevin previously mentioned his Forgotten New York is in todays Daily News complete with a picture of him. I could not find it in the online edition.
If you get your hands on a copy, go to Page 29. There's a large article and picture.
It feels funny reading stuff in the paper that you've known about for a long time.
Congratulations to Mr Walsh
Peace,
ANDEE
i ran out to buy the daily news, hoping to find a small article with a small picture of kevin... instead i found a large article with a large picture of kevin...
i'm devastated...he got more coverage than i did
my congratulations to kevin for the fine article in the today's daily news... it's good to see other railfans getting the attention they so well deserve
if i had the money, i'd buy up all the copies and burn them
Maybe, but he probably doesn't have a motorman's cab in his residence.
Congratulations Kevin!
Just read the FULL PAGE piece! Congratulations, Kevin!
And kudos to the photographer -- they got a good shot of you (where are your shades?).
Hope to see ya Sunday!
Doug
>>>And kudos to the photographer -- they got a good shot of you (where are your shades?). <<<
Susan, the photographer, needed 30 shots of me before finding a publishable one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Agree with the rest of you that it's a nice feature story ... well done Kevin, although the next two pages did a better job of getting my blood flowing, what is Victoria's Secret anyway ?
Mr t__:^)
Congrats!
I'm sure many of us here have enjoyed you site for quite a while. Now many more people can look at NY a little diferently. I just hope you can handle all the increased hits :)
-- David
Actually, while getting a small bump, the hits and email have *not* increased as much as they did when the site was new and was featured in the NYTimes in April 1999. Could be that the site has reached its core audience (about 300-500 daily fanatics). If I get it between 750 and 1000 daily I can start retailing stuff from the webpage.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Whether it's lead to a lot more hits or not, it still was a cool article!
Congrats, Kevin... Even though I don't have access to the Daily News, I'll take everybody else's word for it.
Excellent website -- Keep up the good work!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, congratulations, Kevin.
Couldn't happen to a nicer Subtalker.
Lets see, that's two down (Times and the News) for Kevin, and one (the Post) to go, as far as making it into all three local papers.
Actually I wanted to get into the weekly, the New York Press, because it's way cooler than the Voice or Observer, but Andrey Slivka, the editor, turned me down. He said they couldn't copycat the Times. Anyway I hope Good Day NY might notice me and fit me in between the astrologists and psychologists. Maybe Ernabel or Julie Golden will interview me.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Actually I wanted to get into the weekly, the New York Press, because it's way cooler than the Voice or Observer, but Andrey Slivka, the editor, turned me down. He said they couldn't copycat the Times.]
Well, speaking as someone who reads the NYPress (and the Observer) on a regular basis, I'd have to say that you didn't miss much. Read the NYPress for a few weeks and you'll see that most of its material is the same old same old. "Mugger" pontificates on politics and babbles about his boring family; "Slackjaw" chronicles his seen-one-seen-'em-all urban misadventures; Alan Cabal makes us wonder why he hasn't OD'ed years ago; Taki bemoans the loss of elegant Old World culture, and so on. Oh, and the back pages are always chock full with ads for full-service massage parlors and transsexual hookers.
>>>Oh, and the back
pages are always chock full with ads for full-service massage parlors and transsexual hookers <<<
I have to overlook the back of the book; these ads, which creep me out too, apparently make a lot of coin for the weeklies. I enjoy Mugger's non-PC editorials, tho the man should edit himself better. I like Knipfel's stuff (remember he has RP, robbing him of his vision, and a brain condition, and has persevered a LOT better than I would). And, I like it that the Press uses writers of every ideological stripe; at the Voice, only Castro and Hillary admirers need apply. And, William Bryk's "Old Smoke" column is always entertaining, especially if you like...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[re NYPress]
[And, William Bryk's "Old Smoke" column is always entertaining]
Right, I'd forgotten about that one.
[Oh, and the back pages are always chock full with ads for full-service massage parlors and transsexual hookers.]
That's the best part of the paper!!!
:-)
Actually in all seriousness, when The Village Voice got boring and tired about 10 years ago, NY Press came out of left field and gave The Voice a race for its money (NYPress had the advantage of being FREE). NY Press was actually quite good when it first arrived on the scene. It was like The Voice, but had a more Right-of-Center ideology behind it, which was good, as it off-set the left-leaning Voice. Unfortunately, in the past year or so it has fallen into a rut of lazy writers who have a hard time coming up with stuff we haven't heard before.
Doug aka BMTman
[[Oh, and the back pages [of the NYPress] are always chock full with ads for full-service massage parlors and transsexual hookers.]
[That's the best part of the paper!!!]
And, as Kevin noted, they're probably a big money-maker. While I don't know about the Press or the Voice specifically, it is common for publications to charge premium rates for "adult" advertisers. If a column inch costs x dollars for a regular advertiser, an adult advertiser might have to pay something like 1.5x dollars. Publications that accept these ads can get away with the higher charges precisely because most publications won't accept the ads at any price.
Lest anyone think this practice is confined to alternative papers and sleazy ads, I should point out that the oh-so-mainstream New York Times charges a premium rate for one (and only one) type of advertisement - those for Broadway shows. The Times is a perfect demographic match for most shows, and even more significantly that are few other advertising media that come remotely close. As a result, the Times can adopt the 400-pound gorilla strategy and do whatever it wants. Next time you see an article or column in the Times bemoaning the lack of "serious" plays on Broadway, keep this in mind.
Attaboy, Kevin! Way to go.
Too bad I was in Canada or I would've bought myself a copy.
--Mark
[Too bad I was in Canada or I would've bought myself a copy.]
As they sang in the South Park movie, Blame Canada, Blame Canada ...
The News 12 Long Island Web site has an interesting report on more LIRR maintenance woes, this time focused on the MU cars' shoe beams.
It's been said that a camel is just a race horse that was designed b committee. Perhaps so but committees do have their uses. Back in the 1980s, NYCT Division of Car Equipment brought together a panel who's express purpose was to examine the problems with shoe beams, identify problem areas and recommend & impliment corrective actions. No small task in a culture that had always resisted change. Recommendations included changes in materials, mounting hardware and maintenance practices. Thereafter, every shoe-beam incident was thoroughly investigated and the results of the investigation were applied to modify the solutions. Of course, today, shoe beam incidents are rare on the NYCT and treated as significant incidents when they do occur.
The three single biggest factors in shoe beam viability are the materials used, the mounting of the beam and the maintenance of the beam. NYCT has extremely rigid standards for the type of wood used and the lenght of kiln drying used. Mounting is between resilliant rubber blocks to cushion it against unnecessary stress. Maintenance is a high priority with rigid standards applied.
While it would not be fair for me to comment on the LIRR problems per se', I can tell you that they are not sitting on their hands. They have visited several NYCT facilities to observe maintenance practices. I disagree with the report from news 12 that states that the LIRR shoe beams are exposed to substantially different envirinmental factors. If anything, the NYCT environment is the odd environment and is far more hostile than the other two.
I found your post intriguing, but frankly I do not understand the technical elements you are referring to. Could you please explain what a shoe beam is, and what NYCT did so to improve their performance? Also, do I understand correctly that these beams are made of wood? Are they part of the railroad car? If so, I am surprised. Why would any structural element be made of wood rather than metal?
I hope you don't mind these questions. Thanks.
Shoe beams attach to the 3RD rail shoes. Wood doesn't conduct electricity.
I'm sure that Train Dude will be able to give you a more complete answer when he spots your post. In the meantime, let me tell you what I can.
The shoe beam is the part on which the third rail shoe is mounted. The third rail shoe draws current from the third rail at 600 VDC (volts direct current). The shoe must stay in contact with the rail as it rides along to prevent arcing. Arcing occurs when two conducting materials of different electrical potential (e.g. an electrified 3rd rail and a shoe connected indirectly to ground) are close enough to each other for current to jump the gap but not in direct contact. Arcing generates a great deal of heat. Heat causes fires and may also melt or otherwise damage parts. Thus, you need to attach the shoe to a pretty good structural part so that it can be held in its proper place.
Just as the shoe must be kept in contact with the third rail, it must be kept insulated from the car body and the parts of the truck to which the current is not designed to flow from the shoe. In other words, you want the current to go from the shoe into the motor (via a bunch of complex electrical parts that I don't entirely understand), not directly into the axle and the wheels. The beam is wood because wood is both a pretty good insulator and a pretty good structural material.
So, the shoe is mounted on the beam; and the beam is mounted on the truck, while a proper electrical connection is made from the shoe directly to the next part of the circuit leading to the motor instead of through the beam to places you don't want the current to go. As the linked article points out, if the surface of the beam becomes contaminated with steel dust, the current will flow through the steel dust, causing a short circuit and the usual, undesireable consequences.
I'm not sure what technical elements you are referring to. Let me try to give you a better picture of the shoe beam. The shoe beam is made of laminated kiln dried maple. It's approximately 4' long and about 5" on every side. Bolted to the ends of the shoe beam are devices called Gibb Brackets. They are steel with interlocking teeth to adjust the height of the beam, The gibb brackets fit into a slot cut into a resilliant rubber block called the Gibb Rubber. This block is seated into a holder which is part of the truck frame. Hence, the beam is suspended between two rubber blocks. This provides additional insulation as well as cushioning the beam from vibration.
Mounted to the beam is the fulcrum and contact shoe assembly. This is mounted in the center of the beam. The fulcrum, as the name implies, is a pivot point on which the contact shoe can move vertically. The fulcrum has a spring which aids gravity in holding the contact shoe to the 3rd rail. The fulcrum is a poor conductor of electricity so the shoe is connected to the fulcrum mounting bracket via a braided shunt. Since the fulcrum is now at 3rd rail potential, it is connected to the shoe fuse box by a heavy piece of wire. The shoe fuse is mearly a copper strip rated at 600 AMPS. The other end of the shoe fuse goes to the trolley lead, hence if one shoe is hot, they all are hot. The trolley lead goes to the knife switch box and from there to the propulsion package and to those components requiring 600 volts.
Incidently, in the 1990s, fiberglass shoe beams were tested. They were supposed to require less maintenance. They were about 50% heavier than the wood and could not withstand the flexing caused by the soft roadbed on the Brighton line. Every one of them broke while in service and the idea was scrapped.
Curious - what cars did they try the fiberglas shoe beams on?
wayne
The fiberglass shoe beams were tried on several contracts in the B division. Since IRT shoe beams are slightly different (yes they are) I don't believe that any were produced for the A division. In any event, they were tried on R-46s, R-68s and R-68As. They may have even been tried on R-44s but I can't say for sure. The R-46 trial was satisfactory. Even the R-68 and R-68A survived until they made it to the Brighton line. From that information, the shoe beam was videotaped in action. It was found that the fiberglass shoe beam would not or could not tollerate the flexing of the truck due to the soft roadbed on the Brighton line.
Dates: Saturday July 15th & Sunday the 16th
The Plan: Probally best to arrive Friday night because we plan to be there when the gates open at 10 AM. One of our hosts will be Todd Glickman, including lots of "Traffic" on the line and of course good "Weather". Stay until 5 PM when we hope to get a ride on the IND pair, i.e. the R-4 & R-7A. Seashore has many NYC cars, not all operating, but we'll get to see them all. There is also a pair of Chicago L cars and "SOAC" pair (State Of the Art Car) that were demo-ed at many cities in the 70s.
- Sunday we'll ride the "T" so go to their web sight and order your day pass. Those that want to do it as a group can meet at Park Street at 10 AM which is a central spot in downtown Boston.
Where to stay: No frills = Biddeford Motel, ask for the Seashore/Todd Glickman rate of $65 plus $5 for extra person. Another inexpensive and convient spot is the Turnpike Motel just off Exit 3. Current rate is $70, but you'll need to send a one night deposit to hold the room.
Want a little fancy or more atmosphere ? Log onto the Yankee Magazine web site (www.newengland.com), I found 31 hotels/motels in the area.
As Todd mentioned, a bus MAY be waiting at the Biddeford to transport us in style to Seashore.
- In Boston: Holiday Inn at "Riverside" at the end of the green line. The "T" is just across the parking lot AND just off the Mass Pike and 95 (128). The Beacon Inn is also on the Green line a little closer in on Beacon Street. The Tage Inn is near the Orange line and offers free van service. On the Lowell commuter line at Mishawum/Woburn are a Courtyard Marriott, Suisse Chalet & Red Roof Inn. This is just off route 95 (128) on the North side of Boston.
- I've provided the above to give you a jump start on making your own arangements.
Getting there: Get on route 684 off of 15 & 287, then 84, keep on it beyond Hartford, then the Mass Pike to Boston. Take 95 north there to go around downtown Boston. Get off exit 3 in Maine, which is Kennebunkport. I'm going to give AAA a call to obtain more detail, so you may want to do the same.
E-mail me directly so we have some idea of the size of group and maybe some car pooling. There's three in my car already, but I would be happy to coor. who has a seat & is looking for a SubTalk friend to keep him/her company.
Mr t__:^)
Lots more info including detailed directions on the Seashore Web site. (Note that when entering Maine, I-95 exit numbers go from 1 to 4, then start over again at 1 after the tolls at York. You want to get off at the SECOND exit #3, Kennebunk/Kennebunkport.)
I recommend the Biddeford motel heartily. Clean, comfortable
rooms at a reasonable rate, but call ahead since it will be during
the summer tourist season.
And we also have a personal recomendation for the Turnpike Motel in Kennebunkport as well ... with the same caution ... reserve early.
Mr t__:^)
Well, it's official -- Rudy G. bows out of the race.
Boo Hoo!
And Mark Green may NEVER be Mayor, not even for a year...
What a catastrophe.
In a way Rudy G. spoiled the chances for another Repub to get in, because he dodged and weaved so damn much in the past couple of weeks. He damn well knew he wasn't going to run -- I think he did all of that to show Pataki that he's still his own man and won't cow-tow to the State Rep. Party. (remember Rudy G. and Gov. Pataki may still have some 'bad blood' between them going back to the days of Rudy's backing Cuomo for Governor. Just a thought...)
Doug aka BMTman
Here's a thought for you Doug. Think about why you're crazy about carpetbagger hilarious Hillary. You know who I mean, the one who calls herself a Yankee fan, claims she has Jewish blood un her past, yet calls for a Palestinian state.
Just to be 'fair' I've retitled this thread and must say that I heard a report on WINS that according to a report from Associated Press that Rudy G. is not going to seek the Senoratorial position.
Please pardon the previous post.
Doug aka BMTman
I guess that leaves Heypaul to run against Hillary!
He's got my vote!
And mine. Just think, we have another chance for a Republican from Long Island to be our US Senator.
I would've voted for Rudy without a doubt. I prefer Lazio even more since he's a conservative. If Hillary should somehow get in, be prepared to see a return of welfare to the state of dependency that it once was.
Lazio is my Congressman. He's a very decent young man. Well liked in general, even by very liberal Newsday. He's pro-environment and pro-choice, so if you're thinking Jesse Helms, he ain't it.
[Lazio is my Congressman. He's a very decent young man. Well liked in general, even by very liberal Newsday. He's pro-environment and pro-choice, so if you're thinking Jesse Helms, he ain't it.]
He'll surely do very well in the suburbs, and with enough campaigning Upstate should be promising territory. What I fear, however, is that Hillary's strong lead over Giuliani in the city will remain just as strong over Lazio. It all may come down to turnout. The anti-Giuliani city voters may simply decide to stay home rather than vote for Hillary over Lazio. I certainly hope so.
Hillary vs. Giuliani voters were so polarized, I can't see a former Hillary voters going Republican, or a former Giuliani voter going for Hillary.
However, there may be a number of voters who couldn't pull the lever for H or G who would vote for Lazio. His big deficit is that Hilly has all the name recognition.
But Lazio is a LIKABLE guy. IF there should be debates I think people (even city-dwellers) will see through Hillary's veneer of smiles (but little substance) and RL COULD get a foot-hold among some urban voters. It's slim, but the chance is there.
Doug aka BMTman
Lazio's candidacy will probably depend more than Giuliani's would on Bush keeping his race at least close against Gore, even if he doesn't win. If upstate and suburban Republicans turn out at the presidental level, you know they're not going to switch party lines to vote for Hillary one slot down.
The news reports said tonight Hillary's people are going to try to paint Lazio as the Newt Gingrich of the north. If I were Rick, I would get McCain in here in a hurry to capaign with me, to nip that effort in the bud.
[ ... ] paint Lazio as the Newt Gingrich of the north [ ... ]
I don't think that will resonate with people who aren't inclined to vote for Hillary anyway.
Would it be too dirty to paint Hillary as "the Hillary Clinton of the North"? ;-)
I believe that would be definition of character :)
It wouldn't be dirty to paint Hillary anything. In fact, a paint job would probably do her some good. But New Yorkers have to decide if they are going to surrendertheir pride once again and send a carpetbagger to the Senate to represent them. Remember, they've done that twice before in the past 35 years. Three such carpetbaggers tried that here in California and we kicked their butts good and proper.
Doug baby----I don't believe what I just heard from you. Well OK!!!
Take a bow. For that I'm going to make you an honorary Sea Beach man.
If Lazio is smart, he'll start by campaining in places like Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. I'm not kidding. Republicans seem to be out to screw minorities and the poor, and he needs to work against that, the way Hillary needed to spend time upstate.
Lazio can score some points by claiming that he has a different view of how to improve their lives, while the Hillaryites are just selling out people the Dems can take for granted. He may not be able to prove the former point, but the latter is easy to document.
I think Lazio has a better chance than Rudy. Unlike Rudy and Hillary, not many people DISLIKE him. And Rudy's dropping out saves the city from Mark Green, and removed the incentive for Democrats to try to wreck the city to bring Rudy down (although Sheldon Silver has done enough damage already).
[If Lazio is smart, he'll start by campaining in places like Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. I'm not kidding. Republicans seem to be out to screw minorities and the poor, and he needs to work against that, the way Hillary needed to spend time upstate.
Lazio can score some points by claiming that he has a different view of how to improve their lives, while the Hillaryites are just selling out people the Dems can take for granted. He may not be able to prove the former point, but the latter is easy to document.]
It has long seemed as if the national Republican party has totally written off the minority vote as hopeless. And it's probably safe to say that many Republicans on a national level don't care much about minorities. But that does *not* mean that a Republican candidate like Rick Lazio, running in a state or area with a high minority population, should concede their vote to his or her opponent. If he could get, say, 15% of the black vote and 25% of the Hispanic vote, he'd be well on his way toward defeating Vince Foster's Murderess.
Right Mike, and besides that, using her position as a stepping stone tothe Presidency. You guys in New York must not let that happen. Every anti-Hillary individual must vote to keep her out. Maybe we can even convince our good buddy BMT Doug to fall into line.
Apparently you haven't heard that SHE IS NOT MY CANDIDATE. You are confusing me with salaam (God help me!!!)
If I am confusing you with Salaami, then God help me----and you have my deepest apologies. I'm now convinced that your're for the Green Party candidate Al Lewis. And I promise I will not even entertain the thought that you and Sallami are in any way connected
....leave me out of this please i am not a hillary fan either .....
Well I'll forgive you----this time. But just understand, I'm watching every move you make, and somebody else also is besides me.
>>>Well, it's official -- Rudy G. bows out of the race.<<<
A race that he was never officially in I might add.
Peace,
ANDEE
>>>>>>>>........GOOD RIDANCE.......and goodbye !and dont come back !!! .......ha!!ha!!hha!!........
How about buying a dictionary and learning how to spell, you intellectual desert.
..........coming from a immature child like yourself ??.......like some spoied brat etc.........!!
Salaam, do you pay any attention to whose post you are responding to? Fred's older than you by a decade or so!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Salaam does not pay attention to anyone. He does not seem to have any sense or smarts. That's why he's #1 in a lot of killfiles. If he's not in yours, the time is now!!
first of all do you have positive information on who has the most killfiles ..... i dont think so !!.....
also your judgement of someones intellegence... or nonsense & lack of smarts ..( yours of cource ) speaks all about you ......
Of course, to remind me of the fact that I'm a decade older than Salaam makes me really feel old. Hey Dan, did Anon really have to say that? Oh well, I'm young at heart. But you're right about Salaam. I don't respond to him at all anymore and I feel better because of it. If only I could convince Pigs of that he'd feel better about it, too.
Fred, Don't feel bad about getting old, it sure beats the alternative.
How do you think I feel since I am apparently another ten years older than you!
Karl: Are you really in your late 60's? Well there aren't too many on this site older than me, so it's nice to know that I'm not the dean of this website. But you sure are correct about getting old being a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
Mid sixties! I'm about to go on medicare, I was a teenager when I rode the "Last Lex". I thought there used to be someone older than me on the site about a year ago, but I can't remember his "handle". He hasn't posted in a long, long time. I used to buy those vending machine peanuts for a penny a handful, and ride my beloved BU's for only a nickel. Those were the days! Now I even sound old. :-)
........# 1 this series of threads should have ended a long time ago........
.........# 2 my name should never come up at all.. ----- on this off topic threads etc ........
thank you for spelling my name correctly ..........
Well, I try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt ... I've chosen not to use the killfile option. On the other hand, if I had that option at the office ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I personally find that the kill file has relaxed me. Out of sight- out of mind. I will not even respond to serious posts by that individual.
We all gave him the benefit of the doubt. As if it's worked. He's still serves the same unintelligible drivel (and racist too).
......the only untinellgible drivel & racisms seems to "work" with you ........
Anon and Pigs: PLEASE----Ignore him. Pay him no mind and do not even mention or refer to him. You'll both feel better.
Wonderful! We have a chance at a qualified senator, and we avoid Mark Green.
Maybe Giuliani can run for governor when he retires.
I mean, what a disaster. I'll have to go third party. I don't want Lazio, I don't want Pataki, I don't want the Grammy®-Winning, Hollywood-endorsed, Most Intelligent Woman Who Ever Walked either.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, come on over to the "forgotten third party" The Greens. Al "Granpa" Lewis is running and the guy's mind is as sharp as a tack.
PS. Sorry for the shameless 'plug' in this posting ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
...........good riddance to that bastard rude rudy g ..!!!!!!
Okay, I admit it. For everyone who told me publicly as well as those who told me privately, I admit it. You were right and I was wrong. Salaami is an incourageable racist moron who is beyond redemption. Welcome to my kill file you imbicile!!!!!!!
Salami is a moron? Why compliment that dork at all?
.......bork-baloney to you .......mr compliment.....!!
i think for the amount of text your scroll was carrying, the scrolling speed was a little high, almost at dangerous levels, especially for the manager of the r68 fleet
i brought the scrollamount speed down more to the r-68 speed levels and i think it is much easier to read and much less likely to decrease the mdbf statistics
The slower scroll was much too slow for me. Then again it was still probably too fast for your West-Coast ignorant racist buddy, Salaami. By the way, what's the MDBF of your R-9 cab?
..........cant even spell someones name right.....a posted name at that ........mr baloney ..!!!
Actually, I think that message could scroll faster, R-10 style.:-)
.......baloney to you too ...!! ....& still cant spell someones posted name right......
Maybe soon we can good riddance to you. In fact, take my advice and bug off. You know I'm now convinced that your folks took out termite insurance on your head.
... be careful what you wish to happen to others... your fate might wind up worse than rudy "G"..!!
The Independence Party is having its Senate nominating convention on June 5 in Albany. Maybe they'll nominate someone else, and find a way to dump Pat Buchanan.
Mena Suvari?
Arti
I can hear those tears all the way out here, or is that a guffaw I hear. Well it looks like your Hilarious Hillary might have the inside track on that senate seat, which would make it consisten with New York continuing in its tradition of electing carpetbaggers. However, maybe Lazio may surprise everyone and take her cookies.
[Well it looks like your Hilarious Hillary might have the inside track on that senate seat.]
Well, she sure IS NOT my candidate.
The level is NOT being pulled for Her Royal Phoniness.
Don't confuse me with someone else.
Doug aka BMTman
Again Doug, sorry. You're for Al Lewis. I finally got that. Sorry I gave you a bad time. I think Salami is rubbing off on me. You're in the clear. The question is: Am I?
I have no problems with ya.
Let's get back to talking about R-9's.
And how you can get one into an apartment!
Chaio,
Doug
I thought he would. I don't think he wants it badly enough. He's just too uncompromising to be comfortable as a legislator.
I think he'd make a great governor--if only Pataki would retire to Florida or something!
Thanks to some new constution on Broadway between 72nd and 73rd St. The old trolly tracks have been uncoved. They have dug about 4 feet below the surface us the traks are pretty exsposed. Be usure to check them out before they are covered again!
Any evidence of the conduit? (This is the power pickup between the tracks.)
I was on a the M7 when I passed them so all I couls see was the side of the tracks
[Thanks to some new constution on Broadway between 72nd and 73rd St. The old trolly tracks have been uncoved.]
Which Broadway? Queens or Manhattan...?
Or Brooklyn!! (OK, so there isn't any numbered street around Broardway-Brooklyn)
Us old timers called these things "Streetcars". There ain't no trolley poles allowed in the interior of Manhattan.
If that's Manhattan's Broadway, the IRT Contract One line runs right beneath the street at that point, and the distance between the tunnel roof and the street is 30 inches at the most. In fact, if you look through the grating outside the station house, you'll see one of the express tracks.
This looks like a job for...
Joe Brennan, whose excellent Tracks On Broadway photos are available somewhere on nycsubway.org.
www.forgotten-my.com
There have been a plethora of questions as to who really rides the subway. We've heard Al Sharpton (Doug's buddy), Charles Manson, William Shatner, and even Moamar Khadafi. What's interesting is that when we try to download the messages, they seem to disappear and such dribble as "the message does not exist" appears. What's the story. Are these notices just not being posted or what? BTW, does Governor Pataki ride the subway, and I wonder if my governor, Gray Davis, rides the subway. We have them in Frisco, and in LA.
I deleted all those threads because not only were they so far off topic, they were getting pretty inflammatory. Reload your index and you'll see.
By the way do you really need to post twice?
-Dave
Dave: I swear I hit the post button only once and it comes up dup-
licate submission about a third of the time. Why I don't know. Is t here a different way to hit the key so it won't duplicate? I'm told that others have had this problem as well.
Fred...when you get the "message posted" screen do you hit "return to message index", or do you hit the "back" button on your computer/browser? Sometimes hitting "back" can result in duplicate posts.
I always hit back and have never had a duplicate post.
Sometimes people either
have bad mice
double-click
[There have been a plethora of questions as to who really rides the subway. We've heard Al Sharpton (Doug's buddy), Charles Manson, William Shatner, and even Moamar Khadafi. What's interesting is that when we try to download the messages, they seem to disappear and such dribble as "the message does not exist" appears. What's the story. Are these notices just not being posted or what? BTW, does Governor Pataki ride the subway, and I wonder if my governor, Gray Davis, rides the subway. We have them in Frisco, and in LA.]
I read somewhere that Gov. Pataki road the subway back when he worked on Wall Street.
There have been a plethora of questions as to who really rides the subway. We've heard Al Sharpton (Doug's buddy), Charles Manson, William Shatner, and even Moamar Khadafi. What's interesting is that when we try to download the messages, they seem to disappear and such dribble as "the message does not exist" appears. What's the story? Are these notices just not being posted or what? BTW, does Governor Pataki ride the subway, and I wonder if my governor, Gray Davis, rides the subway? We have them in Frisco, and in LA.
[There have been a plethora of questions as to who really rides the subway. We've heard Al Sharpton (Doug's buddy), Charles Manson, William Shatner, and even Moamar Khadafi. What's interesting is that when we try to download the messages, they seem to disappear and such dribble as "the message does not exist" appears. What's the story? Are these notices just not being posted or what? BTW, does Governor Pataki ride the subway, and I wonder if my governor, Gray Davis, rides the subway? We have them in Frisco, and in LA.]
Maybe Dave P. deleted them. Not that I could blame him, the messages were getting a bit boring.
To answer your question, in my wildest dreams I couldn't possibly imagine Gov. Pataki riding the subway. He's more than a bit too patrician, for lack of a better term, to mix with the common people. Dunno about Gray Davis, from what I've heard his personality sort of fits his first name, he might be a more likely rider.
IT WILL BE ANNOUNCED @ 1530
Just a quick word, I developed some nice, red, itchy blotches on my lower legs 2 days after the walk. Saw a doctor Wednesday (I'm a procrastinator, OK?) at the insistance (read: kicking and screaming) of Jodi. It's poison ivy. If anyone else who came on the walk is experienceing similar symptoms, the ONLY way to get rid of it (it spreads throught the bloodstream!) is to see a doctor and get a prescription for 'Prednizone'. It takes about a week to work on a 'weening' doseage.
-Hank
So that was what it was? I was wearing shorts and got a rash. It healed on its own and I don't think its Poison Ivy. I do however have lots of cuts and straches from thorns cutting into my legs. Next time we should bring a mechete.
We should always wear long pants. When I went on the LIRR Rockaway walk, I worn a winter jacket. Worked wonders, bulldozed myself through
a ton of thorns and weeds.
I remeber when I was a kid going to day camp at the Henry Kaufman campgrounds off Manor Road they were always warning us about the poison ivy and poison sumac that might be in the area. I guess 35 years of development on Staten Island hasn't gotten rid of at least some of the native plants.
It is my understanding that Congressman Rangel of Harlem will be in a very senior position if the US House goes Democratic. Does he care enough about Transit to use his power for funding the Second AVenue line, and the other expensive projects NY is contemplating?
It would depend on the Senate and who is elected president. A Republican Senate with two Democratic Senators from New York would have zero clout in Washington.
If all three (House, Senate, President) go Democratic like during 1993-94, funding would be more likely if the elected Democratic reps acaully push for it, while with a Democratic House with a Republican Senate, it would be much better for New York if Lazio was elected over Hillary, because at least the state would have some voice in the majority, though his concerns would more likely be getting the LIRR link to Grand Central completed than a Second Ave. subway.
[It is my understanding that Congressman Rangel of Harlem will be in a very senior position if the US House goes Democratic. Does he care enough about Transit to use his power for funding the Second AVenue line, and the other expensive projects NY is contemplating?]
I tend to doubt it. Rangel has never shown a particular interest in transit. He's much more oriented toward social service and health spending.
No, it won't mean funding for the 2nd Ave. line. Congressman outside NY would kill it.
It's all moot, as the GOP will maintain their control over both houses of congress through 2002 at least.
[No, it won't mean funding for the 2nd Ave. line. Congressman outside NY would kill it.
It's all moot, as the GOP will maintain their control over both houses of congress through 2002 at least.]
Back in the days when the democrats had solid majorities, the City did do better on transit funding. The Second Avenue subway was funded (that idiot Beame diverted the money, legally as it turned out), and of course Westway.
If Charles Rangel obtains a position of power, it will mean more funding for non-profit social service organizations and health care. The federal government will pay for 75 percent of this extra spending in the sunbelt, but only 50 percent in New York, as is its custom. As a result, NY taxes will have to rise, or spending on transportation and education will have to fall, as they have in the past.
With friends like these...
I live in Onondaga County, home of the next Speaker of the NY State Assembly., N.Y. City subway riders should have nothing to fear from Bragman's victory over Silver in Monday's Assembly Speaker vote.
When Mike was Chairman of the Assembly's Transportation committee,he secured funding for many important rail projects. furthermore, his ability to reach across party lines to achieve solutions will enable him to work with Senator Clinton or Senator Lazio -- whoever wins that race. As Speaker, Mike Bragman will work to see that all New Yorkers get better rail service.
Wow. All this off-topic stuff recently. This board is such a gem when we can discuss the subway and related issues for which it was created by our host. I for one hope it can stay that way.
Anyway, good news: I just received my "members only" mailing from the Transit Museum, and the D-types will run on June 18, July 9, and July 23 from Columbus Circle to the Transit Museum and Coney Island, with a return to Columbus Circle. Transit Museum members may sign-up on May 31 & June 1, so watch your mail! Any remaining slots will be available to non-members as of June 6.
There are other great looking tours on the schedule too, right Doug?!?!
Yeah, Coney Island shops is hurriedly trying to prepare these
cars for service!
I wonder if all three units will be running. I'm VERY interested in this; haven't been on the D-Types since Oct. 1998.
I guess they'll be going to CI via the "F" line, making this an IND Triplex trip.
wayne
Great! Could you please tell us exactly what route it will take and what time it will be running?
Guess about the route: Columbus Circle to Hoyt-Schermerhorn via IND 8th Ave Line, then from the museum, out to just past Lafayette Ave, reverse to just past Jay St, reverse via IND South Brooklyn Line and BMT Culver Line to Stillwell Avenue.
Departure time for each trip is 10am.
--Mark
[... Culver Line to Stillwell Avenue. ]
Is it really going to Stillwell Avenue, or will it go only to Avenue X and branch off to the yard there? I notice that very few trains go between the Culver tracks at Stillwell Avenue and the Coney Island Yard. Most F trains coming into service in Brooklyn enter the line at Avenue X. Even when B, D, and Q trains are rerouted along the F line, they usually terminate at Kings Highway and go through Coney Island Yard to connect to Stillwell Avenue (although I'm guessing they do that to reduce congestion).
I could be wrong about any of this.
Assuming the Transit Museum didn't make arrangements to go through the yard at Ave X, I guess we'd stay on the Culver through that stretch.
There were two trips that I attended that did that:
- A March of Dimes trip in June of 1995
- The 7/95 trip that went to Coney Island twice - we left CI using the Culver Line, including the structure between Stillwell & Ave X.
--Mark
Okay, Todd you let the cat out of the bag!
I'll be hosting a second "Brooklyn Waterfront Railway Tour" the day after the D-Types go on their run. It'll be on July 24, and cover the remaining street trackage of the SBK, as well as the street ROW of NYCHRR and the massive buildings of the Brooklyn Army Terminal.
I'll send Dave P. the details for posting next week.
Doug aka BMTman
any october runs planned ?? ot august 2000...???
NO, sorry
Peace,
ANDEE
Will this nostalgia train be a Sea Beach train with an old #4 insignia it used to carry? If so, please let me know becuase
if it is possible I might fly in for that trip. I'm coming in
August but I would take a side trip for that.
Well, since it appears that the Triplexes will be running along the F line to Coney Island, and since that's the former Culver line, they might carry #5 signs. However, there's a 1980 photo of a Triplex Nostalgia train running along the Culver line with a #4 sign.
I've heard the two units at CI yard, 6019 and 6112, were in sad shape. They'll have to hustle to get them ready. 6095 should be OK, since it's kept indoors at the museum.
Of course, July 23 will mark 35 years since the last Triplexes prematurely rode off into the sunset, as smoothly and quietly as ever.
Wasn't #6095 a Sea Beach train back in the 40's and 50's? That number seems very familiar to me. Someone clue me in. OTOH, why would a nostalgia train riding on a line bear the number or letter of a train that travels on another line? Do they pick them at random?
Since the cars ARE only 73 years old, The sign mechanism does not exactly work. Adding to that, All the signs in 6112ABC were stolen, I had to take signs from my own collection and make copies which are just inserts. Until the real ones are recovered, 6112 will bear the # 1 and the dest. Brighton Beach and the other side saying Bay Parkway. Yes I know the 1 never went to Bay Parkway but, you get what we have and this is all we have! ANYONE OUT THERE WANT TO DONATE D-TYPE ROLLSIGNS???? E-mail me.
6019 IS signed at one end for 3 Coney Island and 4 Coney Island on the other. I don't know about 6095.
-Mark
Mark: Thanks for replying. I can understand your frustration and also mine. I wonder if those low lifers who stole those signs actually realized they were stealing transit history. What would be their purpose except to prove they are a pack of AH. They couldn't be worth a lot of money on the open market could they?
Yes, you guys are right. Railfans who steal stuff for their own personal collections are no better than that jerk who broke into the tower a little while ago, they give all of us a bad name. They are beneath contempt and deserve to be thrown under a speeding train.
Peace,
ANDEE
I have seen 6095 displaying a 1 sign on the end facing the tunnel entrance at Court St., and last fall, the opposite end had a 5 sign showing. Haven't seen any other end signs on it, but that doesn't mean they're not there.
Looks like I'd better get in there. Being that I am a volunteer, I might just be an official guide during a trip. I just love excursions!!!
-Stef
Run those puppies down the Brighton Line express tracks! I wanna see these babies in action on a REAL line.
They'll probably run on the local tracks, since on weekends there is no switchman on duty (I assume this would sill be necessary to switch from local to express tracks on the Brighton line. Is this really true?).
uh.uh.uh.... someone has been out of new york for a while... to the best of my limited knowledge, the brighton line is controlled by workers in southeast asia, where the wages are 12 cents an hour :-)... i don't think there is any control from prospect park or kings highway or perhaps even brighton beach...
however, from the description of the routing of the triplexes, it sounds like the trip will be on the f line, unless the rutgers street connection is completed within the next 3 or 4 weeks...
i am curious to know how many three car units will be ready to roll... from descriptions of the 2 units sitting in coney island yard, it didn't seem that they were going to roll anywhere except the scrap heap... and i say that with sadness as i have lived along the brighton line all my life...
heypaul----I have it in good authority that it will be 2 units.
Peace,
ANDEE
05/23/2000
I received the Transit Museum notice featuring the 3 "Nostalgia Specials". It seems that all three Coney Island runs will be up and down the (F) Culver Line. While the trip starts at 59th St-Columbus Circle, the first stop stop will be the Transit Museum and out to Coney Island. On the return trip, the first stop will be Jay St-Borough Hall. I guess that rules out runs on the West End, Brighton and Fred's Sea Beach Line!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Thanks Bill. It's great to hear someone call the Sea Beach Fred's line. I thoroughly identify with it, and , silly as it seems, to hear it referred as my line is a big ego boost.
Not "Switchman", the title is Tower Operator. The express tracks can be used. Prospect Park interlocking is controlled by DeKalb Ave. Tower, the other interlockings are controlled by Stillwell Tower (Coney Island Yard).
Not necessarily. On the last trip in 1998, we went to Coney Island via the Brighton Express tracks, and we were stopped before Kings Highway because someone forgot to clear that signal! We also had a hard time reaching the tower operators.
--Mark
How the hell could the system operate before the days when trains had radio equipment in the trains to converse with tower operators?
How the hell could the system operate before the days when trains had radio equipment to converse with tower operators?
There were, and still are, telephones by the power boxes along the tracks every 500 feet, IIRC.
Well, they did just that on July 23rd, 1995, exactly 30 years from their last revenue run.
That was SOME trip. We went to Coney Island TWICE. Once via Culver, through CI yard and down the Brighton Line to Whitehall St, then back via the BMT 4th Ave line and West End Line into Coney Island, returning to the Transit Museum via the Culver Line.
The express run down the Brighton Line was worth the price of the trip all by itself!
--Mark
Come on Mark, you took the Culver (I assume you meant F train), Brighton, 4th Avenue Local and West End and NEVER the Sea Beach?
What an insult. When you take such a trip again, don't treat the
Sea Beach like an orphan. I'm counting on you Mark, don't diss the
Sea Beach.
I didn't organize (nor am I ever involved in the organization of) the trip's route - I am merely stating the route we took. On that day, we did not use the Sea Beach.
However, on October 18th, 1998, the last trip thus far on the D Types, we left 57th St / 7th Ave and traveled to Coney Island using the old QT route: via the BMT Broadway Express to Canal St, the Montague ST tunnel to DeKalb Ave and the Brighton Express to Stillwell Avenue.
Coming BACK, we followed the route of most of the Sea Beach line - used the Sea Beach local to 59th St, the 4th Ave Express to DeKalb Ave, then via Montague St tunnel to Canal St, then via Broadway Express back to 57th / 7th.
See, we didn't forget you :)
--Mark
Mark baby, I feel a whole lot better now. Can't neglect my train. BTW, Brighton Beach Bob sent me an "N" Sea Beach shirt from New York. My wife is wondering if I'm going to wear it around the house until it rots on me. See if something can be planned for Aug 16-18. I will be in town and would love to partake in a tour of some kind. I'm trying to line up a few of the railfanners so I can touch base with them and ride the rails together.
Yep, I've been following those posts ... as plans firm up, lemme know and perhaps I'll join you.
--Mark
The October 1998 run had the D-Types go down the Brighton Express tracks, but we caught a red signal around Avenue "U" and had to wait. We didn't get much over 35MPH out there.
On the return trip, we went up 4th Avenue. We got up above 40, maybe to 45 between 36th and Pacific Street. The Triplex can still move.
Wayne
Wayne ... it wasn't Ave U - it was just north of Kings Highway.
--Mark
Sorry bout that - I keep coming up with Avenue "U" for some unknown reason...must be a screw loose or a bulb out somewhere. :o>
wayne
Hey, Wayne, how high did you say those bull and pinion gears got up to along 4th Ave. - F# above middle C, perhaps?
The prospect of getting to ride a Triplex for the first time in 35 years forced me to make a visit to the Transit Museum today, where I just signed up for membership. I had been meaning to become a member for some time now, but your post on this nostalgia tour spurred me to finally take action.
I can't wait!
Does anyone else remember the old small (slightly larger than a dime) thin tokens of the early 1960's, and the funny little aluminum token holders that used to be sold to keep them in? The holders each had three (or four?) little spring loaded tubes to put the tokens into. It would be great fun to see one of those again.
Here is one on eBay that you can bid on!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330719221
Circa 1930s my ass!
Think that description is bad. Someone is auctioning the Arno Press reprint of the IRT book and indicating only that it is "Copyright 1904".
Bidder Beware!!!
I looked at the photo, looked like one I used when I was in high school (Stuyvesant HS, class of 1963). So, I would say it was from the 60s. The tokens pictured were introduced in 1953, so I doubt it's older than that.
-- Ed Sachs
This was before free rides for students?
At that time, students paid what ammounted to 1/3 fare. On the busses, it was 5 cents with a student pass. On the subway, we paid full fare (one token, or 15 cents) on the way to school for the first two thirds of each semester. The last third of the semester, and trips home from school, were free with the student pass.
Each pass was marked with not only the student's name and school, but also the stations used at each end of the trip.
-- Ed Sachs
If I remember correctly, we paid full fare of a dime on the way to school, and rode home for free using the pass. Students got no break on the fare on other than trips to and from school.
The system of home and school station was finally abolished in 1997 in favor of the more sensible trip system.
This works for someone like me who has a different home station every day. It also works when something comes up and you can't go home and a different station is more useful.
I never filled out the back of my pass. If an agent asked me to, I would go to another station (or another booth in the same station).
Of course, things were much different in the 60s from now. In those days, passes were merely a piece of colored, printed cardboard. No mag stripe to swipe into turnstiles (which where mechanical and only took tokens, anyway). As for filling out passes (name, home station -- the school had already rubber stamped in the school and school station info), that task fell to the home room teacher (do they still have home room teachers in high school in NY? My kids didn't have them when they were in high school here in Illinois.) Since Stuyvesant HS draws students from all over the city, he had to fill out a pass for every student the first day of classes each fall.
(BTW, in those days, Stuyvesant HS was on 15th St. near First Ave.)
-- Ed Sachs
There isn't anymore regular homeroom, at least in Stuyvesant, but there is homeroom for when it is necessary: the first two weeks of each semester, report card distribution, transcript distribution etc.
During my Freshman year, it was every day in September and February and every Wednesday, except sometimes when the last of the month fell on a Thursday or Tuesday and homeroom was held then to distribute passes, the last year they were distributed.
Into the 90s the bus company that served the school issued the passes, i.e. we had one person at this depot who did it.
Mr t__:^)
I went to Westinghouse h.s. at the Bridge Jay station on the BMT Myrtle Ave line from Fresh Pond Rd again 15 cents,@ 1962.
That student pass is more trouble than its worth. Until I got my friend to lend me his (he only uses it once a day, and we take the same bus after school) I used to frequently have to run and constantly check the time to see when my final transfer runs out. Some kid got yelled at by a bus operator hen his pass read Ëxceeded Daily Limit". That stupid 8:30 lockout is annoying if I have to go to school dances, if I time it right I could use the pass at 8:29 on the bus, and the transfer at 10:47 on the subway.
I got one in Philadelphia when the cash fare was a quarter and tokens sold at 10 for $2.20. The holders were sold at many dime and varity stores in Philadelphia for around 79 cents, and were lightweight steel with a siver-like plating. The usual use was the passenger would purchase 10 tokens (usually on Monday), deposit one in the farebox, then put the remaining 9 in the holder, which is all it was designed to hold. The holders were not strongly built, and the little steel tabs that held the top on would break pretty rapidly.
I got mine and used it in Philly, then took it home to Baltimore. When the tabs broke, you could easily fix it with a soldering iron. I did that to mine, and I still have it. It sits in my jewelry box, with 9 of my rarer small tokens in it.
I bought one of those token holders from a vending machine on the subway. It's still in pristine condition, since I never used it, and still has a few 20-cent tokens in it. Well, I call them 20-cent tokens, anyway. That was the fare in 1967 before being raised to 30 cents and larger tokens in January of 1970.
There actually were T-W-O of those dime sized tokens, one with a "Y" cut out and one with out, then three of the larger size ... again one with a "Y" cut out & one with out, the third was a "Diamond Jubliee" issued in 1979. And last there was the jumbo version with a "Y" cut out that was used on express buses & Aquedduct Special.
This is all before the two part and then current token.
There are still a few of these tokens (other then dime sized) laying around this depot. E-mail me privately to buy at cost plus postage.
DIsclaimer: I'm not a retailer & can still send them to TA for credit & melt down, just keeping a few around for my "AVA" friends.
Mr t__:^)
Weren't those tokens actually slightly smaller than a dime?
It could be, I was just a kid and my memory is sketchy. I do remember quite clearly that the "carfare", as my working relatives used to say, was 15 cents. People were outraged when it went up, first to 20 cents, and so forth.
Definitely smaller than a dime. Thinner too. A dime didn't fit into the slot in the turnstiles.
-- Ed Sachs
I used to use dimes all the time in the turnstiles, but I think that was before 1953! :)
Yes, before the fare went up to 15 cents in 1953, you inserted a dime in the turnstile. My father remembers his cousin treating him and my mother to a subway ride once, either in 1949 right after they got off the boat or 1952. His cousin put one dime in and told my mother to go ahead, then did the same for my father.
My folks were never afraid of using the subway. Their sponsors in Linden were utterly shocked when they went into the city by themselves, and returned in one piece! My mother says they simply looked at a map where to go, and managed just fine.
According to Brian Cudahy, there were problems when the token was first implemented with turnstiles being activated by German pfennigs and slugs. Supposedly, the sensitivity was increased on the turnstiles and the problem subsided.
Steve, I can't say for sure, but I think the fare was only a nickel till about 1948. I can remember using a nickel first. There was really an uproar from the public when it went from a nickel to a dime, but there was really an outcry when it jumped again to 15 cents. The debut of the token was quite a novelty, and at first people were buying one token each time they rode. At some stations you did not have to buy a token, because the change booth attendent had one of those old style wood turnstiles right at the booth, which he would release when you put your 15 cents in the window cup.
I wish I had saved one of the original solid tokens (before the Y was stamped out), they must be quite the collectible today!
Wish I knew you were looking for one. I left a bunch with Arnold Joseph in nYC for sale.
Big Ed, I think the same thing happened about ten years ago when you found out I was looking for some of the old gate car signs. You had disposed of those that you had too,
I guess that's the story of my life, a day late and a dollar short!
Yes, the fare doubled in 1948 from 5 to 10 cents. When the TA was formed in 1953, the fare jumped once again to 15 cents. It managed to stay at 15 cents (at the expense of gutting the system) until July of 1966, when it went up to 20 cents. I can vaguely remember seeing 15-cent signs on token booths in July of 1965.
I think you're right: those original small solid tokens are collector's items today.
You know what is really funny? Every once in awhile I see an eBay auction advertising "1st NY subway Token", starting bid of $9.99, and it turns out to be the token with the Y punched out.
I guess in all fairness to the seller, those tokens are getting to be
about as scarce as the solid ones, but they really aren't the first NY Subway token!
My token tie clip and token cufflinks feature 20-cent (OK, dime-sized) tokens. I also have a token key ring with an early (thick) quarter-sized 30-, 35-, and/or 50-cent token, compliments of my sister.
Someone sent me the message shown below, it's funny how the same word is spelled the same, pronounced differently and means two different things.
REASONS WHY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HARD TO LEARN
1) The bandage was wound around the wound.
2) The farm was used to produce produce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4) We must polish the Polish furniture.
5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to
present the present.
8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10) I did not object to the object.
11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13) They were too close to the door to close it.
14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?
Yes, English is full of apparent contradictions. The regularity of a language like Spanish makes English much harder to learn in comparison.
Here's a sample of words that look like they rhyme but don't:
Sour - Tour
Mow - Cow
Tear - Ear - Hear - Bear
Dash - Wash
Rush - Bush
(there are hundreds more I'm sure)
and the homonyms: Forget it!
wayne
A few of those are even worth a rim shot.
I should have kept a record of the rim shot awards you have given me over the last 18 months. I think the first one was for the "kayak" joke!
I surprised nobody mentioned that street in Manhattan just south of 1rst Street and that city in Texas with the same spelling.
I bet you're talking about Houston, aren't you?
In New York it used to be pronounced Howston Street.
I think they pronounce it Hueston Texas!
What do you think of Newark, both in New Jersey and Delaware?
Pronounced New Ark in Delaware and Noourk in New Jersey.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Proposal: Use accents and other stress marks to indicate which syllable gets what, like in Spanish. Using some examples from the previous post:
2) The farm was used to produce próduce.
3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more réfuse.
6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the désert.
7) Since there is no time like the présent, he thought it was time to
present the présent.
10) I did not object to the óbject.
11) The insurance was invalid for the ínvalid.
20) I had to subject the súbject to a series of tests.
To bring this back on-topic, What kind of pronunciations have you heard for subway station names?
I just copy and pasted an Email that was sent to me that I thought others might have found interesting. I wasn't trying to write a dictionary! :-)
How about Kosciusko St?
How about MUSHolu or moSHUlu Pkwy instead of the correct MOSHolu . I hear these mispronunciations constantly.
Peace,
ANDEE
Someone sent me the message shown below, it's funny how the same word is spelled the same, pronounced differently and means two different things.
It's the responsibility of the MOW department to mow the ROW.
CH.
Well, I left the city for a while, but its good to be back.
I was working with a friend (senior VP of Marketing) over at Kawasaki to get us into the plant and to take a tour, and it was approved, but he was fired and replaced by some Japanese Guy I have never met. So I am working on getting us a fisthand tour of the 142's in the near future.
If anyone is intereseted, please let me know.
I am hoping to have it within the next month, and invite between 25-50 people. I am not sure if there will be a donation, or what it will be used for, but I am pretty sure I will either give the donations to Dave, or to a charity in Dave/Kawasaki's Name.
I will keep everyone posted on my "negotiations"
fred.
Ps-I have so much to say on Acelas, genesis', and more, but I am just too beat to type anymore now.
Good night
Why does a multinational corporation need charity?
They don't. The idea was to charge a fee for the tour, give Kawasaki what they want to cover liability (as the de facto "leader" I certainly don't want to be responsible if something gets broken, someone gets hurt, or something is stolen. Let them pay for some liability insurance.) Any leftover money would be donated to a transit "charity" like the Transit Museum or one of the trolley museums in Kawasaki's name.
souns like a great idea, Keep us informed
I am not sure how you want to collect a list of interested parties, so I'll post here. Yes, I am interested in attending any proposed Kawasaki plant tour.
--Mark
Does anyone know why SEPTA token booths in general do not sell tokens nor give change. Just the other day I only had $20 bills and a train was approaching the 15 St station on the MFL. I had to buy $20 worth of tokens.
[Does anyone know why SEPTA token booths in general do not sell tokens nor give change. Just the other day I only had $20 bills and a train was approaching the 15 St station on the MFL. I had to buy $20 worth of tokens.]
I suspect SEPTA would have to pay their token booth personnel more if they knew how to make change.
I encountered this same situation in l97l. Remnant of the crime situation tha blew in the late 60's I guess. Much like New York bus drivers not handlinmg cash in Philly it extended to station clerks.Absurd of course, why even have the clerk? But the unions must have been behind it.???
If they on't sell tokens, how did you buy $20.00 worth of tokens then?
'Token' booths on the SEPTA system are actually not token booths in the NYC subway sense, i.e. most SEPTA booths are merely 'cashier' booths to collect fares, dispense transfers, etc. Only a handful of the cashiers sell tokens and even at these locations the hours are limited (30th St, Walnut-Locust and Olney come to mind).
SEPTA has been an exact-fare system since 1968, and PTC actually started the practice in response to hold-ups. Before then, not only could you get change on the buses, trolleys, etc, (and from subway cashiers), you could buy tokens from the operators/cashiers. On the Route C bus, where there was a 2 cent surcharge on transfers where it paralleled the Broad Street Subway, you could even get change in pennies. (The coin changers used on the route had a penny barrel which was longer than the other coin barrels!)
Surprisingly, there are many retail outlets at which one can buy SEPTA tokens and passes. If one is at 15th St, it is a very short walk to SEPTA's retail spot where tokens, etc can be bought. They are also sold at the Center City train stations (from the ticket agents). Additionally, a separate booth is open during certain hours at the 15th St station mezzanine for token purchases.
Token Machine. Stick in a $20 bill, get 17 tokens and $0.45 change.
05/20/2000
Does anybody know if SEPTA will be going over to a Metrocard type farecard system?
Bill "Newkirk"
Thats' unknown at this time. SEPTA is looking into revising the system's entire fare structure, and has looked at several other fare systems, including Baltimore's, which the people from SEPTA were very interested in, especially with the flat fare/no transfer we use here. Since the $1.35 per ride, no transfers, no zones system was started , ridership has actually increased.
Our fare system is so simple and easy to use. Here it is:
Base fare is $1.35. (There are express fare add-ons, but we will ignore that here.) A Day Pass is sold for $3.00, on all buses and at all subway /Light Rail fare machines. It is good from time of purchase to end of service for unlimited rides. Weekly and Monthly passes are sold, good for unlimited rides during the period the pass is good for.
Pass ridership in Baltimore is approaching 90% of riders.
SEPTA may not be able to use the system themselves, but it has sparked an intrest. The system was the brainchild of then Administrator John Agro. We threw away 135 years of fare structure when we adopted it.
There is a fare policy comittee, which is deliberating this, but they have not met for about 6 months.
I don't see how the Metrocard is much different from the Transpass SEPTA has used for quite some time(at least the Unlimited Metrocard).
SEPTA is planning to re-invent their fare structure which, even at the last SEPTA meeting for the MFSE recon I attended, they admit is too confusing. There, we were told that during the process of the recon, the fare structure might even be changed and that SEPTA is seriously considering getting rid of tokens.
Why ask why?
It's Septa.
Septa baffles many people.
Including themselfs.
I gave up on trying to figure them out long ago. Last train I got from Trenton to 30th street had 6 cars, 2 open, and 8 conductors.
A model of efficiency, I know.
One wonders what the system would be like if it was actually well managed, and wasn't at the mercy of the various unions...
[Septa baffles many people.
Last train I got from Trenton to 30th street had 6 cars, 2 open, and 8
conductors.]
And I thought the LIRR was bad!
...and that means the University is kicking me out and I am loosing my 24/7 hi-speed internet connection. This means that the volume of my posts will decrease and I probably won't be in chat on Saturday. I regret that I will not be able to promote the great Pennsylvania Railroad and everything it built on a full time basis and I fear that this MB may be over run by the New York Central. If anybody wants take over the job of "Loud PRR Fan" until get back send an application via e-mail.
SubTalk has been a centrepiece of my day since I discovered it in Novembre and I've had a great time talking to all of you. I hope you all have a wonderful summer and I again voice my support for having the big SubTalk party in Philly.
See you full time again in Septembre.
-Keep the dream alive!
hey mike... spring for $150 and get on webtv... we need your voice here... help keep the nightmare alive...
Well I'll still be around, but I won't be able to stay on top of things like I used to. But I might het the net at home or at work so you never know.
Sounds as if it's time to cue up "See You in September".:-)
This evening I was on a Brooklyn Bound "A" Train (R-38s), gracefully bouncing down Central Park West, we caught up to a Brooklyn Bound "B" Train at 81st Street, due to the darkness I could not catch the number of the car initially, but based on the look and the windows, I was like ok, it's your normal R68A on the B, But as we both entered the station at the same time, the other cars had R68 windows, and I noticed the numbers, 2885 and so on. Confused by this I was praying the Motorman followed the rules and slowed to a crawl for the timers, in which he did, thank god. This gave the "B" Train a chance to blow by us, looking closly the last car that I thought was a R68A had actually turned out to be R68 Car #2884 but with R68 styled window.
Which poor R68A car lost it's windows to a cousin R68 car?
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I have seen regular R68's (Alsthom; refugees from the "N") on the "B" in lieu of the R68As - ON OCCASION. One such bunch is 2900-01-03-02; and I would guess the high 2800's would be in the range as well.
Wayne
On several occasions I have seen regular R68s from the "D" train (2501 - 2770) on the "B" train.
What's the difference btwn. R68 windows and R68A windows?
You notice the top part of the side windows on a R68 is much like that of a R44. A Small Opening!
On the R68A, the top part is a bit large as a opening!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
The side windows with the destination curtains. On the R68s, there are 2 window panes. On the R68As, there is only one.
The windows on an R68s have a thick piece of black rubber areound the border. The R68As have steel in place of the rubber.
That's not the weirdest thing I've seen. Yes, I've seen the R68 with the R68A window, so have you. Have you ever seen the R68 without a destination sign? I remember the entire 4 car set had no side destination signs.
You wouldn't happen to remember the car numbers, would you? It's be nice to ride some subway cars without destination signs (not just SIR).
I think the numbers are in the vicinity 2882. Last I saw it, none of the cars in the 4 cars set had destination..
I think the numbers are in the vicinity 2882. Last I saw it, none of the cars in the 4 cars set had destination signs.
You mean no signs, no mechanisms, no nothing? Interesting.
Nope. Nothing was there. The entire "box" that hold the signs and everything was gone. It was just a normal window that you can see through.
Yep I've seen that too! What is going on with these cars, they are getting shitty treatment!
R142 Boi 2K
......just a simple on topic question ......... this october & also what lines will they still be on ??
It all depends on how well the R 142'S do with the testing.
thank you...
i do not agree with scrapping the r-12s
the triplexes will be running on sundays
june 18
july 9
july 23
it will leave columbus circle at 10 am and proceed to the transit museum
from the transit museum, it will go out to coney island where people will have 2 hours to do as they wish
it will return to columbus circle, stopping at jay street to allow anyone to get off
do not listen to doug... the train will NOT return over the franklin shuttle.
fees:
adults: $25
children under 17: $10
under 3: free( one child per adult)
railfans: $75
heypaul supporters: free (must bring psychiatric case history)
there will be a members reservation period from wednesday may 31 to thursday june 1
general reservations for non members will begin monday june 6
reservations and advanced payment is required.
i don't know if the trips will be sold out... it might pay to consider becoming a member for about $40 a year to qualify for early reservations...
phone number of the education department for info:
(718) 243-8601 between 10AM to 4PM
..........heypaul are there any october runs planned or august ....??.....I really would lkie to know......
also the TRANSVERSE-CAB-CAR-CLUB-MEMBERS ........are to be ""screened out amd banned""....!!!!!!!
salaam... the three dates i posted was all that was listed in the museum flyer... i have no inside information about future trips... try calling the education department's phone number and see if they can answer your question...
as to your questions about the redbirds... from what i have read here, the r-142's will be going into 30 day in service testing period sometime in june... if they pass that, then delivery of the order will begin... i don't imagine that all the cars will be in by the end of the year... so i would guess that the redbirds will be around through the end of this year... from what i heard there has been some trouble with the bombardier test train... i haven't really been following this stuff too carefully...
..........heypaul are there any october runs planned or august ....??.....I really would lkie to know......
also the TRANSVERSE-CAB-CAR-CLUB-MEMBERS ........are to be ""screened out amd banned""....!!!!!!!
salaam... the three dates i posted was all that was listed in the museum flyer... i have no inside information about future trips... try calling the education department's phone number and see if they can answer your question...
as to your questions about the redbirds... from what i have read here, the r-142's will be going into 30 day in service testing period sometime in june... if they pass that, then delivery of the order will begin... i don't imagine that all the cars will be in by the end of the year... so i would guess that the redbirds will be around through the end of this year... from what i heard there has been some trouble with the bombardier test train... i haven't really been following this stuff too carefully...
Back in '98 I walked on; just showed up at 57th Street with my fare and away I went. Perhaps I'll try that tack again.
Never been on the Triplex through the IND ....I wonder if it will be carrying a letter sign up front.
wayne
I wonder if it will be carrying a letter sign up front.
I doubt it Wayne. From what I heard, it's difficult to change the signs without ripping them.
--Mark
I have some suprises as to the sinage. You'll have to wait to see :-)
You mean the side with no sign has a sign now? Cool!
--Mark
Well.....For those who don't know, Many of the D-types signs were stolen in recent years. I have been building up a collection of them and we now have enough (I hope) for most of the train.
Stolen?!? Oooooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooo.
Let me guess: from the two units at CI yard, right?
A couple of months ago this site had a discussion about how the D-Types were being left to rot in Coney Island Yard. Has any restoration work been done on them? Are all three units going to be used on these trips?
Let me say.........They look like a million bucks. (At least 6112 does)
Well, it would appear that the D-Types are getting some of the TLC they deserve.
And it looks like the original Nostalgia Train is BACK! This is close to the route of those taken in 1980, except in 1980, the departure station was 57th St/6th Ave. I even have my original tickets.
Now all we need are the R-1/9s to the Rockaways and the ABs to the Cloisters, all running on the same days, and we'd really have deja vu all over again :)
--Mark
I'm told there are only three D-type Triplexes that still exist. I assume it will be a three car train, or are there others I don't know about. Are there any R 1-9's that will be used as in those fan trips of the 1970's?
I doubt it will be a three-unit train (remember a "unit" is made up of three "cars" articulated together. They have three units.) I saw a picture of one of the units recently that is really sad, I doubt they'll fix it up in time for the nostalgia trains. Also, since they are running so many trips in such a short time I would suspect that they are only running a 1-unit train, possibly two units, but not three.
I have it, on good authority, that it will be 2 units.
Peace.
ANDEE
At least 6095ABC should make it out, since it is the most cosmetically sound of the three units (may need some mechanical work). However, at least one additonal unit will have to be deployed to accomodate the passengers. Sounds like 6112ABC is coming out if I read Mark W's post right.
By the way, does anyone know if the train will layover at 207th St Yard prior to the excursion, or will it come up from C.I.? If if comes from C.I., where does the equipment get turned, north of 59th or perhaps at 135th St on those storage lay up tracks?
-Stef
They may have it lay up on that spur track along CPW (I think it's between 72nd & 81st). The D-Type should overnight at 207th Street, and be afforded the royal treatment there.
Is 6019 still suffering from roof problems?
Wayne
I have no idea what 6019's status is right now. Perhaps Mark W. would know....
-Stef
Wouldn't it be something to see the Triplexes thundering along CPW?
There are three units still intact: 6019, 6095, and 6112. One section of another unit was discovered in upstate New York on a farm, IIRC, and may have been acquired by TMNY.
If you've ever seen Class of '44, the sequel to Summer of '42, there's a brief pan shot of 6095 gliding along (empty) what appears to be the elevated portion of the Brighton line with one of the other two units.
[D-Type unit] acquired by TMNY.
Yeah? cool. Evan - true??
--Mark
Steve: Thanks for the info. I haven't seen Class of '44 in years and will rent the movie just to see that train. It is also a good flick. I am., however, disappointed that it was on the Brighton tracks. I was sure 6095 was a Sea Beach train. Maybe I had it mixed up with a 6019. Anyway thanks.
There you go again, I guess the new N T Shirt is sticking to your brain
Those are simply car numbers. There were 121 Triplexes in all, and they were numbered from 6000 thru 6120. It's quite possible that 6095 may have been assigned to the Sea Beach at one time. There are photos in the car section of 6019 in revenue service on the Brighton.
05/26/2000
That center D-Type section hasn't been acquired by the TMNY since I haven't heard of this myself since I am a member of the museum.
I did some detective work a few years ago since this center unit was removed from the property it stood on for years to make way for a furniture store. I found out that it was moved furthur upstate just south of Albany and was utilized as a lavatory at a camp grounds, now abandoned. I haven't seen the unit personally to report just what it looks like since the property owner discouraged me from entering the property because of hunting season!
I guess it's still there even though the property owner expressed ridding his property of the center unit to anyone interested. Anybody need a D-Type center unit / lavatory ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Where is the center unit now. I remember it like you said on Route 28 just a few miles west of Kingston. Where is this farm that is south of Albany. Since I live in Poughkeepsie, I might be able to check on it.
I stand corrected.
For the past couple of evenings, I have been taking the Z line home and was wondering... Shouldnt some of the name on the line change their name. Here is a few......
1. Gates Av to Linden St. There is not even an exit at Gates.
2. Chauncey St to Rockaway Ave. The exit is at Rockaway.
3. Koscziusko St to Dekalb Av.
4. Eastern Pakway to Van Sinderen Av. The exit at Eastern Parkway is closed.
Any more in the system that you can come up with?????
What does it take for a name change??????
3Train#2119Mike
How about stations where the 24/7 exits are not the station names; such as First Ave. (Second Ave.) and Madison St. (East Broadway) on the F?
<< such as
First Ave. (Second Ave.)>>
When I lived on T Sq Pk 30 years ago the second ave end was busier(and of course the name was supposed to indicate the transfer to the soon to be built second ave line. All that said I generally favor retention of traditional names unless there is a VERY good reason for chane. SIXTH Ave!
Personally I think it would be better to change the Gates Av sta to Quincy rather than Linden as the staircase comes right down to Quincy. As far as Eastern Pkway I don't think any part of the station is over that corner and never understood why its called that. For years I've driven E/B on Bway and turned left on Eastern Pkway to get to the Interborough Jackie Robinson on the way home from work.
For the past couple of evenings, I have been taking the Z
line home and was wondering... Shouldnt some of the stations
on the line change their name. Here is a few......
1. Gates Av to Linden St. There is not even an exit at
Gates.
2. Chauncey St to Rockaway Ave. The exit is at Rockaway.
3. Koscziusko St to Dekalb Av.
4. Eastern Pakway to Van Sinderen Av. The exit at Eastern
Parkway is closed.
Any more in the system that you can come up with?????
What does it take for a name change??????
3Train#2119Mike
Koscziusko St to Dekalb Av? Why?
Although I'd hate to see the original tile work design altered, Cortlandt Street on the 1/9 should either be changed to World Trade Center or Vescy Street, since the main entrance/exit is on Vescy, and the entrances and exits inside the WTC complex require a block walk through the underground corridors (and the BMT N/R station) before you can even get close to what remains of Cortlandt Street.
They wouldn't alter the tilework at all. They would put one of those Whie-on-Black signs over the tilework, like at 149st Grand Concorse.
World Trade Center on the 1/9 doesn't have any tilework.
It USED TO - it is just buried beneath that horrid putty-coloured brick. A POX on the imbecile who authorized that!
I think if they remove the brick, the original tile will be revealed.
Off post topic - did a nice little photo shoot at Wall Street on the 4/5 today - lots of doodads and fancy stuff there including an original wooden token booth and ticket chopper. They have the blue tile over the original stuff but the tablets are visible and quite a few original plaques (with the fort) have been cleaned and restored. There is quite a leak going on there and water damage is evident.
Wayne
And ONE Mott Avenue tablet is still visible - they had better NOT cover it over.
Here's one that wouldn't be such a big deal to change the name of:
138th Street (on the #4/#5) -- change it to "138th Street - Mott Haven".
a) It would be consistent with the "MH" tiles
b) They could expose a few of the original tablets to reveal "Mott Haven"
Wayne
Why did they change the name of Mott Haven anyway?
Peace,
ANDEE
Not sure why, Andee but I do know they changed it early on - maybe as little as three years after the station opened. It may have been causing confusion with nearby Mott Avenue.
wayne
I heard a while ago that the tilework at 149th-Concourse was landmarked - that's the tiles AND the information!!.
Thus, if it were ever changed, the original tiles would have to be recreated AND the original text ("Mott Avenue" in some cases) would have to be preserved, at ALL COSTS.
Presumably all new signage must be ordered for platforms and subway cars. Also the route signs on buses would have to be changed if any runs terminate at those stattions. What about the cost to advertisers and potential loss of businesses.
Change the name of Chauncey Street ??? NEVER !!!! How dare you deprive us Honeymoonies and Bus-Talkers of the only thing in NYC named after our patron saint RALPH KRAMDEN !!!!!!!!
#9306 WF a/k/a HART BUS
Seen at Chauncey Street to-day: survey marks are up on the canopy supports, ostensibly for some much-needed REHABILITATION.
One stop up the line found workmen diligently installing flourescent light beneath the inbound platform canopy at Eastern Parkway: can new cast-iron platform lamps be far behind?
"The Barn" isn't quite done yet (crossover the "L" tracks) and two out of the three escalaters leading to the "A" were NFG, including the one going UP. And they're installing new platform surface at Broadway East NY but the gnarly Blue Berry tile is the same as it ever was.
Wayne
He meant changing the name of the station, not the street!!!
I realize that, but as a bit of homage to Jackie Gleason who had a well documented love of transit and transit workers, I feel we should keep the station name as Chauncey Street.
Station name changes serve no purpose other than to confuse people who are used to station names as they are. Changing Gates to Dekalb would be incredibly stupid, as 2 stations named Dekalb Ave. already exist. As long as the streets still exist near the station (like Eastern Pkway is, under the station), no name change should take place, even if the exit to that street has been closed.
BTW, the only station I've seen renamed was 102nd. St on the J, which is now referred to as 104th St. But this too is confusing, as 104th St already exists on the A at Liberty Ave. Most people still use "102nd St" anyway.
I would only advocate one change. Jamaica/Van Wyck on the Eshould rightfully be called "Jamaica Avenue", as to not confuse it with the Van Wyck Blvd. stop that's next. Yes, I understand that the original intention of calling it "Jamaica/Van Wyck was to avoid confusion with passangers who might think that "Jamaica Ave." would allow a transfer to the J line. The Archer Ave. lin's been open 11 years now, so that really doesn't mean much anymore. Most people in that area probably havent lived there long enough to have utilized Jamaica Ave. el service east of 121 St.
Chris R16:
I would agree with you the changing the name of the Gates Ave. station to DeKalb Ave. would only serve to confuse riders further. They should think twice before changing the name of a station that has had that particular name for 80 years or more. If you've noticed that the real name of the 149th St. station/Grand Concourse on the #2 and #5 lines is Mott Ave. A few years ago I was riding that line and noticed where the new station signs had been removed the old name of the station could be seen.
BMTJeff
Mott's the good woid....
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
The picture that you posted is a very good one indeed. I think that they should take down all of the newer signs to reveal the old tilework.
BMTJeff
In many cases, they have. Don't forget old is new again. They haven't done so yet at 138th Street. I don't say take ALL the signs down, just one or two on each platform to reveal the original tablet. And so the customers don't get confused, put a small sign with the current name beneath the old tablet.
Wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
I've seen the letters "MH" at the 138th St. station on the No.4 IRT line and an old timer will tell you that the station name was Mott Haven.
BMTJeff
I think you mean Gates to Linden or Quincy AND Kosciusco to DeKalb. DeKalb is nowhere near the Gates Av Station.
So you notice the problem that some stations only have one exit, and you suggest re-naming the stations? Why would you want to make these problems worse by enshrining them in name-changes? They should re-open the exits, not change the stations' names!
The Forest Pkwy. station on the J no longer has an exit at Forest Pkwy, so now the station is called 85th St. We need FEWER examples of that kind of foolishness, not more.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Well said and spot on!!!
I think some of those exits open depending on which one more people enter or exit from. Maybe it was expected that the station name exit would be the primary exit, but as it really turned out, more people use the secondary exit. And to save money on overnight and weekend shifts, and to make it more convenient for the majority of the passengers, the primary exit is closed in favor of the secondary one.
There are people who complains of walking that extra few yards... like senior citizens and the handicapped... especially in more dangerous neighborhoods. Some things can't really be predicted accurately. Hence the saying: "Nobody's Perfect."
[ 4. Eastern Pakway to Van Sinderen Av. The exit at Eastern Parkway is closed. ]
Or, better yet, reopen the exit to Eastern Parkway. That would benefit us all!
The station sign at the Eastern Parkway exit does not include the Z train. Thats how long it has been closed...... It just says A,C,J,L. How long since it has been closed??????
BM34x
The TA should tread very carefully when renaming stations. These are ingrained in peoples minds and often create unnecessary confusion. The MBTA in Boston is notorious for making such changes, and is often forst to rescind them.
The classic is 'Scollay Sq.' renamed 'Government Center' back in 1964. By the 1990s, the panels read 'Government Center at Scollay Sq.'
Another bad example is 'Columbia', now 'JFK-Umass'. Both those institutions are almost a mile away via bus, Columbia Rd is still at the top of the stairs.
'Cambridge Center - MIT' was the biggest loser of all, it is now as it was, 'Kendall'.
Then there was 'Massachusetts' at the intersection of Mass Av. and Newbury. The War Memorial Auditorium, located nearby, fostered a change to 'Auditorium', which was fine since the Avenue had Northampton and Symphony stations too. The Auditorium was renamed for an ex-mayor - Hynes, but the station remained as was until another local institution the Institute for Contemporary (or Contemptable) Art decided it wanted a piece of the free advertising, hence the name is now 'Hynes - ICA' To bring things full circle, the new Orange Line has a 'Massachusetts' station down the street!
Sometimes the change is right, and reduces confusion, until the tinkering starts again.
The Washington St. Tunnel stations on the Orange Line had multiple names and the MBTA made them consistent in 1964, and has since renamed three. Union and Friend became Haymarket matching the connecting Green Line station, a good move since neither Union St. nor Friend St. pass near the station today.
The next stop south 'State' and 'Milk' became 'State' with the Blue Line station at 'Devonshire' revised to match. It's now 'State - Citizens Bank' which initially combined the names of two competing banks, but fear not - Citizens bought State Street's consumer banking operations. And if you climb the stairs at the southbound platform you still emerge at Milk St. (or Water St.) several blocks south of State St.
'Summer' and 'Winter' became 'Washington' matching the Red Line station below (but kind of confusing on a line which followed Washington St. for about 7 miles). Fear not - it's now 'Downtown Crossing' which is an euphemism for the intersection of Summer, Winter and Washington Sts. (Oh well...)
And last but not least there was Essex and Boylston, the latter renamed Essex to avoid confusion with the Green Line station just a block away. Now the name is Chinatown, a neighborhood just a couple of blocks away, but in between is what's left of the old adult entertainment district, known as the 'Combat Zone'! And even more sinister, right at the top of the stairs lies the 'Registry of Motor Vehicles', known world wide for its surly clerks and three hour lines (though the present administration is doing better).
Moral - Leave the station names alone!
I agree, Gerry! One addendum to your note... Kendall on the Red Line is signed "KENDALL/MIT," but the automated announcement in the 1800 Red Line cars still says, "KENDALL/MIT -- MIT CAMBRIDGE CENTER."
Yesterday morning at Penn Av, I saw the following cars together on the 3: 1984-1981. (NL bound). Just coincidence???????
3Train#1981Mike
On 5/15/00 I saw 1901-1902-1903-1904-1905 on the 3
On 5/17/00 I saw 1890-1889-1888-1887-1886 on the 3
Yesh, possible link.
There are several books of varying worth about the NYC subway, from the best (Cudahy) to the worst (Frattini), but are there any about the history of the Boston T? Could do an Amazon or bn serach, but figure somebody in here would know.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have a list in my Bibliography about Boston.
Have there been budgetary cutbacks at the Transit Museum Stores? This year, I've found the bookshelves, especially, to be getting pretty bare. The TM used to be the place to find esoteric transit titles; the last couple of years I've found books on Brooklyn's waterfront railway, LIRR's Rockaway branch, and Peter Dougherty's track book. I didn't feel like spending then, but each book cannot be found now (I've visited each TM shop once since February).
Sure, demand dictates availability, but I don't think these titles were big sellers at any time. I'm disappointed in what's happened to the Transit Museum bookshelves.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I should've bought that Rockaway line book when I had the chance. Oh well, there's always the library (I hope).
Try the 2000 Trolley & Transit Show this June 3rd.
I am sure you'll find the books you're looking for there, possibly even at a discount.
--Mark
If you could send me the full title of the books you are looking for, and include the author and/or publisher, I can see if I can scare up copies to add to our museum store (tmny.safeshopper.com).
--Evan
NYCTA folio plan sheet book, 8.5"x11" spiral bound, $14.00 postpaid. On Ebay now at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337335476
Thanks for looking!
Features these drawings:
Electric Locomotives
General Electric/ALCO steeplecab #5
General Electric steeplecab #6
General Electric steeplecab #7
Diesel Locomotives
Whitcomb #9 (originally US Army #7980)
General Electric #10 & 11
General Electric #50-53
General Electric #54-59
General Electric #60-62
Subway Passenger Cars
IRT Division Q type: #1600ABC-1629ABC (2 pages)
BMT Division type A, B, BT #2400-2799 (2 pages)
IND Division type R-1 #100-399
IND-BMT Division type R-4 #400-899
IND-BMT Division type R-7A #1575
IND-BMT Division type R-11 #8010-8019
IRT Division type R-12 #5703-5802
IRT Division type R-14 #5803-5952
IRT Division type R-15 #5953-5999 and 6200-6252
IRT Division type R-17 #6500-6899
IRT Division type R-21 #7050-7299
IRT Division type R-22 #7300-7749
IND-BMT Division type R-30A #8352-8411 (2 pages)
IRT Division type R-33 #9306-9345
MOW Service Cars
Contract R-3: Motor Flat Cars #20010 & 42
Contract R-3: Pump Car #20128
Contract R-3: Trailer Dump Cars #35/36 and 20137-20140
Contract R-20: Telescoping Boom Crane Car #20153
Contract R-20: Traveling Crane Cars #20151/52
Contract R-20: Trailer Dump Cars #20141-20144
Trailer Hopper Cars #H250-H279
Trailer Flat Car #20023 after 1954 rebuild
Tank & Weed Spray Car #20048
Trailer Tank Cars #20122-20125
Trailer Rail Handling Crane #20149
...I have managed to find a few out here who rode the PCC cars of los angeles and the pacific electric railway
out here but so few people..!! Just wanted to hear some experences from those of you who did ..!!
The Pacific Electric PCC cars ran only on the North Glendale and Burbank lines (from Subway Terminal). I rode them, as a mere child, of course, in 1953 and 1954. The tunnel route to Subway Terminal was the high point of the trip and made the whole thing exciting.
Didn't they share common dual-gauge trackage with LA streetcars at one point?
Yes they did, especially in downtown LA when the PE ran on the same streets as the LATL, there were 3 rails, being that both companies shared on rail, and then each used the seperate rail, both shared the same electric trolley lines.
Right, but this never affected the Pacific Electric PCC cars, which ran only out of Subway Terminal and not on any downtown streets in LA.
.......I am learning a lot about the history of these fine beautiful GIANTS that once roared all around
soutnern california . You can still see these beautiful GIANTS at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california..
visit thier website at http//www.oerm.mus.ca.us/ or enter orange empire museum on yahoo or any transit museum search...
if you live in the southern california area a visit is a must if you are a true rail transit systems worldwide fan ..!!
.......I am learning a lot about the history of these fine beautiful GIANTS that once roared all around
soutnern california . You can still see these beautiful GIANTS at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california..
visit thier website at http//www.oerm.mus.ca.us/ or enter orange empire museum on yahoo or any transit museum search...
if you live in the southern california area a visit is a must if you are a true rail transit systems worldwide fan ..!!
.......I am learning a lot about the history of these fine beautiful GIANTS that once roared all around
soutnern california . You can still see these beautiful GIANTS at the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california..
visit thier website at http//www.oerm.mus.ca.us/ or enter orange empire museum on yahoo or any transit museum search...
if you live in the southern california area a visit is a must if you are a true rail transit systems worldwide fan ..!!
bascially they ran on Private Right of Ways, and onn the center medium of Glendale and Brand Blvds thru Glassel Pk, Glendale and Burbank
.........these fine museum pieces including the pacific electric PE cars are still doing museum runs at the ORANGE EMPIRE
TRANSIT MUSEUM in peris california $ 6.oo to ride all day plus free tours of the grounds ...... website.......
http//www.oerm.mus.ca.us/ & or enter ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM under ""yahoo""...........
.....thank you very much sir.....!! unfortunately for me most of my childhood 1960s experence was with the pcc - type cars
on pico boulevard ........I can not wait until I ride them again at the orange empire trolley & red car museum
in peris california..! It will be interesting to see and hear the grinding engines sounds coming from them like
the good old r-1 thru 9s in new york city ...!!!!
I have once posted a message about obtaining GIS files on subway systems for my grade 10 geography project which requires the incorporation of arcview and GIS. The due date is approaching and i need as much help as i can get. Do any of you know the URL for sites and databases where i can obtain free shp files of subway systems around the world? Furthermore, since i live in toronto,canada does anyone know a site where i can obtain specific info on the subway system there such as the number of riders per day or per station, etc?
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Ummm, maybe because not many people here know what a GIS file or a shp file is.
Having just returned from Toronto 5/21, here's the official TTC web site that has the info you're looking for on the Toronto Transit Commission, as well as a 94 page report on its future.
--Mark
My wife found me a copy of yesterday's NY Daily News (I never saw the weekday edition sold in this area before). This is the "National Edition" of the paper (only 48 pages), and the story about Kevin and his picture are on page 22.
Great article, Kevin! I was afraid that I was never going to be able to read it being out here in the country and everything. I do have one question though, now that you work for Macy's, does this mean that you will have to march in the Thanksgiving Day Parade?
>>>I do have one question though, now that you work for Macy's, does this mean
that you will have to march in the Thanksgiving Day Parade?<<<
If there is one thing I will NEVER do it is get into a clown suit and hold a balloon.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[get into a clown suit and hold a balloon]
That looks like a job for.......Heypaul :-)
Some of you might be interested in the three eBay auctions listed below. Each auction is for a different sign from the LO-V cars, the signs are not pictured, but the seller describes them as being in good shape.
The auctions are...
333897184
333897653
333897975
Congrats to the New York Division (ERA) for a good HBLR show: to the man from NJT planning with slides of the first light rail car entering the Newark Subway (also pointing out the 3-digit number, instead of 4-digits for the railroad-profile wheel cars on HBLR; he also answered questions well); to the person who supplied "freebies" left over from opening day; to the member who showed movies of 1949 on the Hoboken & JC el and the Weehawken slope; to the slides from last Sunday (in sun) of HBLR. Thanks to all.
Thanks! We aim to please. By the way, the member who showed the movies was Gary Grahl; the movies themselves were from the Roger Arcara collection. The slides were by Andrew Grahl (Gary's son), our current Program Chairman, and Eric Oszustowicz, our former Program Chairman. Andrew's were from Opening Day, and Eric's were from last Sunday.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
How about a rush-hour through express on the #4 Line at least from
Burnside Ave. in the A.M. and to Burnside in the P.M. Right now, the
diamond #4 just skips 138 St. With ridership up so much, there would be a better passenger balance and it would give Northern Bronx riders a faster ride into Manhattan.
Another possibility of new express service-- a diamond N from Astoria
via the express track to Queens Plaza and then express down Broadway to Canal St. in the A.M. rush and the reverse in the P.M. rush.
These two lines seem to be ideal candidates for using unused express tracks. There's also the A (in Queens), the B (in Brooklyn), the
F (in Brooklyn), the M (in Queens) that could warrant consideration.
The portion of the M train in Queens, from Wyckoff to Metrolopitan Aves, is only 2 tracks - there is no express track.
There is, however, a middle track structure on the M train from Wyckoff to Broadway that would enable trains to skip Knickerbocker and Central Aves. The track was taken up many years ago. There is a picture in Greller's "The Brooklyn Elevated" on page 36 that shows this track in service.
Really? I was told that this track was never actually built. I've seen pictures of gate cars at Knickerbocker Ave in the 1940's without the track there.
At the Wyckoff Ave. Station, if you look down where the track would have been, you can actually see where the ties were by the difference in the height of the paint - at least you could back in the '60's. Perhaps by now they've painted over it a few more times so that it is not as noticable.
All of the services you describe wouldn't really improve service, and it would probably make it worse. There's a reason these express tracks aren't utilized: it doesn't make sense to.
The West End express track can't be used during rush hours. The M uses it to turn back at Bay Parkway.
The whole track?
I always thought that either the B or M could run express to 62nd street in the evenings
I'd say you need at least 16 tph to split a service local and express. That will get you a tolerable 7.5 minute wait at the local stop.
As it is, C local service is too infrequent. People in Ft. Greene often take a bus to Downtown Brooklyn rather than wait for the C.
And, if they did ran express you'd have to wait forever for a train.
When was the last time a thru express ran on the Jerome Ave Line?
Did that servce end with the end of the 9th Ave El service in 1940?
I never saw or rode an express on the line from the from the mid 50's, when I started riding it.
I tried to post this message yesterday, but, I kept getting errors.
To my knowledge there never has been such a service On Jerome; but personal experience only goes back a few years longer than yours.I've read, and been advised that that type service on Westchester Av/White Plains Rd didn't exist until the early 50's[?] son no surprise that or if Jerome and Broadway never had one far uptown. I'm sure you'll get other replies but for now thisa is my offering.
I know that there was thru-express service on all the other Bronx lines, except the Dyre Ave line. Again, it probably had something to do with the 9th Ave El shut-down. I had not thought about the Broadway line. Although it was built with three tracks, I do not know if there ever were any thru expresses on the part of the line.
Likely not: there was a Broadway Thru Express briefly in the mid 50's, for a couple of years I guess; but the timesaved (between 96th and l37th) was lost at the point whjere the express track switched back into the local as it was rush hour, other trains, etc. Especially l37 st. as the locals terminated there (the Van Cortlandt Park trains were B'Way-7 Av Exp in those years).
The MTA during every single rush hour runs, at random, a few R and even fewer N in the rush hour direction on the Broadway express. And it's not because of a gap in service; they would use the local tracks for that, and also there has been frequent service on the local tracks all along in some cases.
I managed to get onto 2 express N's (express I mean on the Broadway express track, both R68s BTW) at Times Sq last week on separate dates. When those trains arrived, the amount of people waiting at Times Sq seemed like there WAS a gap in service. And when the trains bypass the 49th St station, there certainly were many people waiting and envious of not being on the train also. I could be wrong though, since they both occurred during the PM rush.
UGH! I have to disagree with you on the frequent service on the local tracks along the Broadway line there! I take the N/R every weekday and more often than not, service is not very frequent...
Lex Man:
I agree with you that they should utilize the unused express tracks during non-rush hours. How about Manhattan bound trains during the late morning until 12 noon and Bronx bound after about 12 noon. I've also suggested in other message that they use the unused express track on the Sea Beach Line on which the "N" train travels on.
BMTJeff
Any time saved on the Astoria express track would be lost due to the need to merge with local trains at Queensboro Plaza; hence the reason there is no express service there.
A nonstop Sea Beach express service would be underutilized, IMHO. If there were express stops along the Sea Beach line, an express route could catch on. Let's face it: that nonstop run was designed to the masses to and from Coney Island. That's it.
I have this transit rail jpeg in my macintosh hard drive .......Question please if it is allright .. is how do you load it for
posting on this message board ?? would appreciate any help from mature intellegent persons thank you ...!!
You can't directly load a picture up to the site.
What you can do is start up a web page of your own. There's lots of free services for this, GeoCities, Tripod, etc. Then, once you've got your photos on your own web site, you can link to them in your post with the appropriate HTML markup. When you see images in posts, this is generally how it's been done.
-Dave
thank you david pirmann I was trying to load a recent los angeles red rail car picture loaded from my hard drive
to the post an new response etc.....it seems to work when setting a desktop oh well .........
I have heard about LE's from the LIRR and MNRR now require College education. Also I heard that One should have to be 21. To any Engineers or Engineer experts(wanna be an LE when they grow up), do you think it is worth going to college, or should I just throw in the towel and become a Motorman?
Also, Can anyone tell me about the Job of Locomotive Engineer and its benefits?
Email me
I was both a motorman and an engineer. NYCT and Montana Rail Link.On the LIRR or MN I'd imagine the duties would be much like a motorman's. Engineer training was much more thorough, required much higher passing grades (90%) on MRL, not to mention rules exams [should be on All RR's even transit]every year or two, now recertification of federal license required every 3 years; including hazmat exam (short) but maybe they don't have that on commuter lines.Thanks to the engineer';s union lobbying for the licenses in Congress every discipline is a matter of federal record, and you're on propbation for some time if you get disciplined. My feelings are they took the fun out of the job; but I still enjoyed it. My own feelings are [I know college wasn't required to be an engineer on mMRL]skip the time and expense and go for the motorman's job. The wages are almost as good and benefits are similar.The NYC pension plan is better (but this can change) and in my opinion the sick leave and vacation setups are better. But everything has its good and bad.Happy running whatever you decide.
Do you have to be a locomotive engineer to operate the electrics (M-1, M-3) on the LIRR?
Can't give you an up to date answer but would guess you would be. Quoting an article from Railroad Magazine of about 50 years ago re the NY central, now Metro North commuter territory there were no motormen as all were qualified engineers that might bring an MU down one way and bring the 20th Century Ltd. back. Likewise in modern times I saw a job bulletin when I was an engineer in Montana that PATH was seeking loco engineers and I'm sure you're awarethat PATH is an interstate IRT.Buut its under the FRA for some reason so that makes them engineers for some reason. Can't say for sure but that shouldbe some answer to your question.
Yes, on the LIRR everyone is an engineer. You must be an engineer to operate those MU tincans as well as the shoebox diesels.
I'm a Train Operator for NYCT, and I can tell you that you're better off getting a college degree and putting it to good use. I'm currently working on an accounting degree part time. You should get a degree in a business concentration in order to make a decent starting salary. The NYCT job isn't all bad, but if you feel you can do better than that, get a degree.
Its ALWAYS worth it to go to college.
per offical bulletin:
2--express from 149/3av to 180 in peak direction during am/pm rush
circle 5-- no change. Runs local
diamond 5--no change. Still runs Express during peak hours in peak direction.
The only change is the added 2 express
Any idea how the trains will be signed? Perhaps <2> stickers are being made?
I don't think new signs would be needed for the trains, but the stations will need them, especially in the Bronx.
I don't think so since ALL 2 trains will be express in The Bronx. You just have to know what time express service starts and ends and listen to the announcement (a challenge to most).
Must take pictures of <5> on Bronx express soon! (Probably May 29th).
The diamond 5 will still go express! It will be joined by all #2 trains.
Yes, I just realized that from the spanish notice on an R26 this afternoon. It had (2)<5>(5) on the top, in color, with some spanish writing that I could deduce and summarize as 2 and 5 will be bronx expresses. Since they did not mention a <2>, will the 2 be express in non-rush like the <7>?
Hey that would be nice. Another way to Tame the "Beast".
Didn't the 6 run express all day? South until about noon, north shortly after, I believe.
Joe C
Yes the No.6 out of Pelham does run Express all day. Around 12:30PM the direction swiches.
Monday, May 29 is Memorial Day; there won't be any rush hour service. Everything's on a Sunday schedule.
If you want to experience an exercise in futility, go to a station with supplemental weekday or rush-hour service on a major holiday and try to tell all the people that the train they're waiting for isn't running.
But the Dyre Ave. trains will be the "circle 5" at all times, right? Having the 2 go express during the rush can't be the only change, that would mean all trains running express during the rush, and no service at all to local stations, which can't be right.
I believe he said Cirle 5 would be ALL local from 241st, taking the old 2's place. Diamond 5 would be the express originating at 241st, but express south of 180th.Express 'tween Gun Hill & 180th is too much to ask for. The 2, I presume, is both circle and diamond, depending on time of day, all out of Dyre.
Joe C
Not at all. Simply put, ALL trains starting at 241 or 238 Streets will be express in the peak direction, ALL Dyre Avenue trains will be local. ALL trains go to Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn diring these times.
During Rush Hours some No.2+5 Trains go to Utica or New Lots. Most are layed up in Livonia but some do a round trip to Utica. However a go 95% do go to Flatbush.
During Rush Hours some No.2+5 Trains go to Utica or New Lots. Most are layed up in Livonia but some do a round trip to Utica. However a good 95% do go to Flatbush.
Some 2s and 5s start in New Lots, I believe.
That's not true. If you look at the transit schedule for the "5", you'll see that the bulk of the E. 238th Street "5s" begin or end at Utica Ave. or New Lots Ave.
There were a couple of Dyre Ave. "5's" that began there trip at Bowling Green during the PM rush hours.
Also, some "2's" trains also go to New Lots Ave. during the rush hours.
I'm figuring it's gonna operate like the 7 service. Southbound express ervice till around noon, and then reverse Northbound Express service. With alternating trains (Bronx Local, Bronx Express, Bronx Local, Bronx Express, and so on just like the 7). As for 5 service, they are ruining one great Express Line!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Sounds like they are gearing up for the R142s on the 2..but what a cool ride on the Redbirds while they last!
The Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy is sponsoring an historical tour on the new Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Jersey City. The rail travels through and by several local landmarks, including the Paulus Hook Historic District, the American Sugar Refining factory, the Morris Canal, the Medical Center complex, Bayview Cemetery, and others.
Meet at Exchange Place light rail stop on the Jersey City waterfront (take PATH from World Trade Center to Exchange Place). Be there 4PM sharp! And bring change for the low fare. Hope to meet SubTalk's rail enthusiasts!
For more info on the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy, visit our web site at: www.jerseycityhistory.net
i went on the tour today sponsored by the jersey city landmarks conservancy... it was hosted by john gomez and three other people with knowledge of the morris canal and the lehigh valley and jersey central railroads... there were at least 20 people in the group of varying ages and interests... there were no other subtalkers there, so i really didn't need my flame retardant asbestos lined vest...
from the descriptions of the large amount of industrial and railroad activity in jersey city, it seemed like it must have been a really nice gritty town back 30 or 40 years ago... a city that manufactured real things, rather than processing profit and loss statements as it does now... of course, nowadays things are much cleaner in the city, as there are few people who do anything that might dirty their hands...
it was a nice couple of hours spent with some people who never once asked what voltage the trolleys ran on...
from the descriptions of the large amount of industrial and railroad activity in jersey city, it seemed like it must have been a really nice gritty town back 30 or 40 years ago... a city that manufactured real things, rather than processing profit and loss statements as it does now... of course, nowadays things are much cleaner in the city, as there are few people who do anything that might dirty their hands...
And of course, what these people do is a lot more important to the rest of us than those gritty manufacturing jobs.
That's it, I can't take it. I promised I wouldn't post anything else on this board, but this is the only place I can turn.
There is a chat NOW! If you didn't know, well, now you do.
http://subtalklive.cjb.net
Today, I became one of the first two people in years to ride a moving Mineola. It was moved out into the daylight for the visiting Transit Transit crew and afterward, the R17 pushed it back into the barn, with Doug Diamond and myself on it. I wish I hadn't forgotten my camera.
Yeah, Dave, that was quite a car.
I was even tempted to us the antique toilet on board, but thought better of it since I wasn't about to consider where the refuse would end up!
Beautiful wood work throughout the car! It was my first time seeing her in all her glory.
I must get that car photographed sometime, too.
Doug
I'm still kicking myself for forgetting mine.
Do you need help with the kicking?
:-)
Hey! What did I miss? Who the heck's idea was it to use the R-17 as a tow motor?
By the way I hope you guys didn't move the R-17 in the rain....
-Stef
Sorry, Stef but a certain Westchester Yard person made the move. It wasn't raining when the Mineola was moved outside or put back in the barn with 6688. Don't sweat it.
The Transit Transit crew wanted a good light source for a sequence inside 'Minnie' -- hence the move outside.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, it did drizzle while it was outside. And dampness on the R17s pole caused the entire line to be shorted out for a few minutes.
Right, I forgot about that!!
But, there was no heavy rain while it was out. Just a drizzle/mist sort of thing. (And it didn't last long -- don't panic, Stef).
Doug aka BMTman
That's good to hear. I don't have to worry about rusted sides when I return to work on her next weekend.
-Stef
Dave!
Keep this tucked away in the back of your mind somewhere....
They're called disposable cameras and you can buy them in any drug store.
Bill
05/21/2000
I am wondering why Transit Transit is showing interest in the "Mineola". Perhaps with the 2004 subway centennial coming up, it would be a unique showpiece on loan for the Transit Museum? Maybe a grant for the long overdue restoration?
Bill "Newkirk"
Yes, and Yes. Also, it is certainly one of the most unique pieces of antique RT cars in Branford's collection.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S.: Bill, sorry you didn't make it to the Atlantic Ave/Canarsie Line Tour. It was a good trip.
I'm looking forward to a great June Transit Transit, as I've heard they have already been to photo Bob Diamond's PCCs & will visit Warehouse Point who's have a 60th birthday party this year.
Mr t__:^)
If Doug is right, there will be a great shot of my great rear end in the closing credits, they were filming on 775 while I was operating. They also filmed W3, 629 (in the opening of the show) 3rd Ave Car and 4373 (in the barn, BRT Car). Doug hung out with them, I had to WORK.
Hey, Lou, I did my share of work, too -- they caught me on tape taking a torch to the side of 6688!
Doug aka BMTman
I wish I'd inserted myself into the scene somewhere.
Lou:
With all due respect, it would take the greatest Hollywood special effects men many years to get a "great" shot of your rear end. However, I look forward to operating our new car - 4373. When did that arrive on the property?
05/22/2000
What car is #4373?
Bill "Newkirk"
4573 Okay Typo
Lou, I would assume that that was a simple 'Lou from Brooklyn Blooper'. I believe Lou actually meant to say 4573.
He hasn't been the same since being distracted by the camera that was zooming in on his glutimus maximus. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
4573 Okay Allright geee not like I said 8866 boy that would get Stef Mad.
It must have been the TV Camera Lights in my eyes and my 15 minutes of fame. Final Answer.
Hey! It's 6688, gosh darn it. I had no idea Branford had gotten an R-33 mainline car. Lou Shavell, are you reading this? We got a new car! Hehehe. I wish I had been there. Perhaps the camera crew could have gotten footage of me priming the old girl's roof (the R-17). Hehe.
I was at the Liberty State Park Train Show on Saturday, and who should I find walking around? The guy working on H and M Car 503. I guess he decided to play hooky from the shop. There was a Trolley Museum Donation Box on a table, but I had no idea who was watching it. An interesting item was there at the Box: Pictures of 5466 and 6688 on the road to the Museum. I almost wished I had been around to see those two beauties being hauled by truck.
Regards,
Stef
Is he the only one working on the H&M (Class=J) Car?
Wayne
There are basically 2 guys who are doing the work on that car.
I suspect the other one was at the train show too. He posts
here sporadically.
Wayne, are you asking if they need a third ???? If you have an interest I garrantee that Jeff, Lou S. or Vick will find something for you to get your hands dirty with :-)
Mr t
theres a movie from 1984 called beat street its about breakdancing graffiti art on ny subway cars and stations its got some good subway and elevated footage hoyt schermerhorn station and the court street shuttle tracks are shown as well as a graffiti artist who spraypaints a white r2730s subway car and a guy named spit spray paints his tag on the artists work and chases him down the track into the station and fights on the track and both fell on the 3rd rail and get electrocuted theres also tunnel walking scenes breakdancing in 57th and 6th ave sations and el scenes in the bronx
The two R-12s, stored for years in the back of Concourse Yard will be on the move this weekend. They're moving from their former resting place to 6 track in Concourse Yard. They'll be there (virtually under the Bedford Park Blvd. bridge for about 2 weeks while asbestos is removed from the cars. Then it's off to the scrap pile. All this to make room for the storage of at least 40 Red Birds.
Bummer.
So 40 redbirds can fit in the space of 2 R-12's? ;-)
I know it costs money, but its too bad they couldn't be bought by a museum...
Bought by a museum is being a bit premature. The redbirds will be stored around the system in the event that the R-142/R-142As need to be pulled from service. They will receive routine maintenance and kept in a 'ready for service' state.
No, I meant the R-12's.
Forgive me. I should have realized that. I'm also assuming that the cars are heading for the scrap yard - if only because of their terrible condition. Of course one or both may be slated for a better fate.
There's a pair already slated for presrvation. R-12 5782 and R-14 5871 still wear MTA Blue and Silver . They were last used as Fire Department training cars in the 1980's down at Coney Island.
-Stef
05/21/2000
Stef,
Are these two ex- fire school R-12's to be preserved by the TA for museum fleet or the Railway Preservation?
Bill "Newkirk"
The R-12/R-14 combo belong to the TA. It and several IRT units (formerly work motors) reside at a Bronx Train Yard. The AB's, Lo-Vs, R-1/9s, and the R-10, meanwhile, belong to the Railway Preservation Corporation.
-Stef
I saw the workers removing asbestos from the R42 at the NYCH interchange yard two weeks ago, and I took a picture (I don't know why). I'll have it up next week.
Meanwhile, here is the R42 before the work:
-Daniel
These are great pictures. Perhaps the Webmaster can put them on this site?
-Stef
Thanks, I took them a month ago. Did you notice the small white dog in front of the car? He chased me out the gate of the SBK yard after I took the picture. I'm putting these two up on MY site, byt if David Pirmann wants them, he could e-mail me. Some of my HBLR photos are on nycsubway.org.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail
05/24/2000
Do these R-42's still have what's left of their blue stripes and light blue interiors? If so those R-42's were sent up to Morrison-Knudsen in Hornell when the R-42's were being overhauled. I guess they were judged unrebuildable and were used as "pusher" cars to push the overhauled ones onto the flat cars for the trip back to the TA. What wreck were they involved in?
Bill "Newkirk"
Hey, the more the merrier. I emailed the Western Railway museum in CA, and suggested they send one of their diesels out here (3000 miles) to pick them up and drag them back.
;-)
Dave
Especially since they are the closest cars around to the R-10's. They were pretty much the IRT's version of the R-10's. Unless I'm wrong the only museum car that even comes close is the R-11 at the Court Street Museum.
How 'bout that R7a 1575? I think they also have an R10 school car.
That's true, but you could never link these two cars up to have a fan trip because of the different braking systems.
Not to mention different propulsion systems. 1575 LOOKS like an R-10, but it still has R-7A innards.
R10 #3184 has been restored, is painted bottle green, and is at Coney Island Yard, when it SHOULD be stored inside out of the salt air!
wayne
"it SHOULD be stored inside out of the salt air!"
Those frills cost money.
05/21/2000
Wait a minute Wayne! Wasn't #3184 repainted a couple of years ago in the two tone grey with orange belt rail scheme?
Bill "Newkirk"
That's right. With the exception of the signage, I'd say that the car looks ok.
-Stef
I was not aware of the paint job; last time I saw that car it was GOH Bottle Green so I must have out-dated information.
Thanks for the update.
Wayne
No salt air will do anything to those indestructable R10's. LOL
I would guess not, since they were stored in the Rockaway Park Yard for almost 33 years.
They didn't call them German pinzer tanks for nothing.:-)
Thunderbirds would be a good nickname for them. They thundered, all right, especially along CPW.
They've got R-12 5760(?) already there in its original colors.
I know about #5670? But what about the rest. Once they are gone, that is it. The R-12/14 are the first IRT original type "R" equipment and are unique with their "monitor type" roofs, small fans and signs and old type window and door arrangement. (miniature R-10's with electric doors) It would be nice to have a nostalgia train with these cars. Couldn't five cars or so be stored at Coney Island? Afterall, the scrap value is almost nothing.
But if they're in bad shape, they won't be worth fixing.
wayne
...........just had to get rid of them instead of going to a museum.......... what parts are still use-able ??
also why the rush to scrap an old classic r -12 ??..
Hey, would you know if the split R-62 from Union Sq sitting near those R-12s is going off to scrap anytime soon?
-Stef
I'd like to see it go. It's become a target for vandals and a duming ground for garbage. However, They take up very little room so they are not a priority.
I've been wondering this about the redbirds as well. I think I said it.
If I want to strip parts out of cars prior to scrapping for my own collection, how would I go about getting authorization.
Those kinds of approvals are rarely given. Are you an employee or just a fan?
[Those kinds of approvals are rarely given]
True, and scrappers aren't railfan friendly either. But seeing how popular the Redbirds are,I think there's a market for items such as signboxes,controller handles,horns,etc. When the end finally comes,these could be removed before the cars are sent to scrap and sold through the Transit Museum.
If and when you go to the actual scrap yards, carry CASH and don't look like a railfan. No scanners, no cameras, nothing but cash. That is their only language. Frequent visits from the EPA and OSHA cost them $$$. They see someone snooping around in the yards without or even with permission, they will escort you off the property. When we went to Sarnelli Brothers in 1986 to purchase 6398, we were definately being watched, until the "transaction" took place.
And be prepared to pay for little trinkets, such as a safety chain for Heypauls's R9 or a horn or bell. I am trying to upload more scrapyard pictures to Dave for the yard site but I would not go there again unless for official business for the TMNY. Those steel shredding and bus compactor machines are fascinating to watch but taking things to the extreme, I wouldn't want to end up disappearing in one.
If the cars are being sent to scrap, why remove the asbestos? Is it because the cars cannot be sent to scrap (or discarded) with this material?
--Mark
That's my guess. Scrap yard workers don't want aesbestos anymore than the next guy.
Sounds like they'll be headed for SBK.
What is "SBK"
South Brooklyn Railway.
05/23/2000
If you wonder why SBK is the intials for South Brooklyn Railway, the reason why SBR wasn't used was because those letters were used by the South Buffalo Railway. Freight trivia!
Bill "Newkirk"
My guess is South BrooKlyn railway.
-Daniel
05/24/2000
[My guess is South BrooKlyn railway.
-Daniel ]
Your guess is right!
Bill "Newkirk"
I guess the cars are too far gone to save them for museum pieces ; how many R-12/R14's are left in work train service? I saw one at Pelham Yard and possible a couple at the 207 St yard. Are there any plans to save these two cars and what numbers are they.
5802 and 5851 are the numbers of the cars going to scrap. 5802 stood at East 180th St for many years before being moved over to Concourse, while 5851, in MTA Blue and Silver sat at Westchester Yard. Only now are they getting around to scrapping them.
There's another pair that hasn't been active in many years. 5782 and 5871 are slated for preservation. I've seen these cars and no real work had gone into them. Hopefully, as time passes that will change. 5760 is the best looking car since she resides at the NY Transit Museum. This car is decked out in the as delivered 1948 paint scheme. Wouldn't it be great to see these in operation someday?
There's a number in work service, mainly in tow by diesels for the work trains. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a working R-12/R-14 since I was a kid in the mid 80's. You can find about 15 of these old timers in work service along with a couple of R-15 units.
Your handle is interesting. Are you an R-17 fan?
-Stef
Hey, Stef, could someone make NYCT an offer on 5802 and 5851 so they could be saved?
I'm sure NYCT would be happy to unload them for chump-change (obviously, the buyer would pay transportation fees).
Doug aka BMTman
I don't even know if they'd be worth saving. 5802 could be a parts source for 5851. And perhaps 5851 could be brought back from the bring of death. Really, they don't look that great. 5851's missing a pantograph, and is covered with grafitti. She's decked out in MTA Blue Silver, while 5802 is decked out in red. There are pictures by Peter Dougherty at Concourse Yard on this site in the Yards Section, so take a look and you be the judge for yourself. You should also be able to find shots of 5802 and 5851 on the R-12/14 Roster Section. I would have preferred to salvage R-12 5704 and R-15 5992, stored away at 239th St Yard among the batch of old cars, but they were disposed of 5 or so years ago. 5704 was on the South Ferry Shuttle for many years. She still had and old rollsign, while she was at Concourse Yard in 1995, the 5 LEX. An additional R-15 would have been nice, as there are no other R-15s being preserved by any Museum besides 6239. They were in red and appeared decent, but mechanically is a different issue.
A variety of issues need to be considered, before preserving the units, but I suppose it's not impossible. We could always pick up 5782 or 5871 (Museum Cars), and do it over at our turf (you know the guys in CT). Anything's possible, but who's willing to invest?
-Stef
If you are talking about the Danbury museum in CT, they might be brought there; just thinking. Why can't the MTA send them there and donate them. Somebody at the Kingston museum told me scrap walue is less than $500 each. The MTA could write them off or a fund drive could be started. Of course the Danbury museum would have to be contacted first. I also think that there is an R-15 in the 207 Street yard next to the main building. It is hard to tell from the Fordham Rd bridge, but the door side windows appear to be the R-15 round type.
No, no. I was actually referring to the Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT. They have a vast assortment of Rapid Transit and Trolley Cars, including a working R-17.
We brought our R-17 car from the TA for $1450, which was the scrap value, plus a large shipping charge which was in the thousands. This is not a cheap investment. Who wants to invest in the car, and where is the car going to get stored in the confines of the Museum are among the issues to be considered. Not all of our cars are stored indoors. To store them outside might become a problem, because the elements can do damage.
-Stef
I was a member of the shortline museum years ago but distance prevents an active part in it. The museum at Danbury is on the Metro-north Line which is connected to the subway in New York somewhere. Therefore the cars could be delivered by rail without trucking charges since the MTA and Metro-North all belong to the same agency.
If someone in the MTA would be interested, these cars or any number of others within reason, could be saved for posterity at no cost to the museum, or whatever, to save and restore them. Even $1500 for scrap value is nothing compared to the amount of money spent by the MTA and the transportation costs could also be minimal for the agency who owns the track and the employees.
The cars could be towed to the museum using a diesel locomotive.
These are just ideas that I have come up with upon seeing the notice about these cars and possibly other work train cars that are still around. By the way, are these cars still in working order?
By the way, are these cars still in working order? (R-17 Writes)
No. The cars in work service, can only be pulled by diesel since they were stripped of their running gear years ago.
The museum at Danbury is on the Metro-north Line which is connected to the subway in New York somewhere. (R-17 Writes)
Not exactly. There's an interchange yard in Brooklyn which connects the NY Subway to the NY and Atlantic Rwy (formerly LIRR) Trackage. To get up to Danbury from Eastern Brooklyn would require the subway cars to get across the Hell Gate Bridge via Amtrak. I don't know if Amtrak or the local freight carriers would be interested in pulling old NYC Subway Cars. It's could be done for a price.
The best way to do a move such as this: South Brooklyn Rwy from the NY Subway and interchange with the NY and Atlantic Rwy in Eastern Bklyn - then to Canadian Pacific at Fresh Pond. CP can take the consist via the old Port Morris Branch to Mott Haven Junction to be picked up Metro North and taken to Danbury (if this were to happen).
I don't know about the Danbury Railway Museum, but they specialize in conventional rail equipment, such as a New Haven Diesel, or old coaches. Subway cars? That would be an interesting addition even though they wouldn't be able to run under their own power.
-Stef
I would hazzard a guess that the cost to pull some subway cars up to Danbury vs. on a flatbed to Shoreline/Branford or Kingston wouldn't be all that much less. Then the trolley/subway museum that was having them "stored" at Danbury would have to worry about what the kids were doing to them out in the back after dark.
So, if these cars are going to get saved it will take desire on the part of a museum to want them, then some hard cash. Both are tough nuts to crack.
Several of us at a local museum are still hopeful that at least one of the R-33S World's Fair cars get saved.
Mr t__:^)
one is saved
One is saved for the Transit Museum, yes. But some of us at Shore Line have a fantasy about getting one coming out of passenger service, somewhere along the way. We'll see; anything can happen.
-Stef
I don't know of any other working R-15s in the system. Perhaps the car you saw was a work car that get's pulled by a diesel locomotive?
-Stef
I observed the car at the 207 St yard last week and several other times while crossing the Fordham Road bridge. It is against the wall of the building about 100' from the south end on the first track. The side doors look like the porthole windows. The end door is hard to see but it is either the round window which is correct or a rectangular window like the R21/22's (of which several of those cars are in this yard too).
I think the car has the side rails for the window stops and has the round roof. This was all oberved while driving in traffic across the bridge although I've looked at it several times from the same position.
There are IIRC five rail museums in CT:
- Essex, a steam museum
- Warehouse Point, trolleys
- Danbury, a diesel engine museum
- Putman, just getting started with some RDCs & diesels
- and Shoreline at Branford, the one Stef was talking about
Mr t__:^)
[There are IIRC five rail museums in CT:
- Essex, a steam museum
- Warehouse Point, trolleys
- Danbury, a diesel engine museum
- Putman, just getting started with some RDCs & diesels
- and Shoreline at Branford, the one Stef was talking about]
Add Waterbury to the list. IIRC, it mostly has old diesels.
There were R15s at bush terminal in 1997, dont know if they are still there or are worth saving.
By the way, you should see the arrival condition of some of the cars in the Kingston museum. If they were worth saving, graffiti covered R-12/14's are also worth saving. As long as there is life, there is hope.
Graffiti is not a big deal. Are the cars structurally and mechanically sound? You can preserve as much equipment as you like, but know this: The constant exposure to the elements will take it's toll on the Museum Fleet.
-Stef
By law, they can't be scrapped without asbestos abatement.
That must be something passed within the past few years. I remember playing with some old R22s on Second Avenue awaiting the NYCH that were retired under their own power. Most of the batteries were still holding a charge (doors actually opened and closed with C/R indication) and their was nothing removed from the cars. No light covers, no junction or knife switch covers, nothing. I could imagine that many scrap iron workers will suffer from asbestosis in the future if the material is not taken out.
heypaul , useing your jaundice eye, please evaluate the scrape cabs for future time transit.
avid
Apparently the asbestos abatement project will be somewhat more than first reported. Apparently this will involve more than just the 2 cars currently in Concourse Yard. No numbers yet but more to follow.
WELL, There are four cars at the SBK yard in Brooklyn being abated. Three R-44's and an R-42.
A few weeks ago there was an open bidding notice in the New York Post iviting those interested to bid on 32 subway passenger cars and 20 work cars. Looks like they really need the track space.
The opening of the Wassaic Extension on the Metro-North Harlem Line is scheduled for July 9,2000. Some ceremony is planned and the first official train will be headed up by a Genesis engine. There will be two new stations; Tenmile River and Wassaic. There will be four through trains each day between Wassaic and GCT,four down in the morning and four back at night in addition to the Wassaic-Brewster North Shuttles. There will be some good old fashioned railroading. As this is a single track line above Brewster North one train will have two scheduled meets. The biggest change will be in the train numbering system,Wassaic trains will use the 900 series while Brewster North trains will now use the 600 srs, North White Plains trains will stay in the 500 series while Crestwood and Mount Vernon West turns will use the 300 srs.
More info as it becomes available.
Larry,Redbird R33
[The opening of the Wassaic Extension on the Metro-North Harlem Line is scheduled for July 9,2000. Some ceremony is planned and the first official train will be headed up by a Genesis engine. There will be two new stations; Tenmile River and Wassaic. There will be four through trains each day between Wassaic and GCT,four down in the morning and four back at night in addition to the Wassaic-Brewster North Shuttles.]
Am I correct in assuming that trains will no longer terminate at Brewster North?
Regular electric trains will continue to terminate at Brewster North as they do now. There will be connecting diesel-hauled shuttles between there and Wassaic. In addition,there will be four daily through round-trips between Wassaic and GCT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Those trains will also serve Patterson, Pawling, Dover Plains, etc? If so, are those trains in addition to the current direct diesels from the Harlem valley to GCT?
Today, I went out to look at what was going on on the Blue and Orange Lines because of the trackwork. They were operating Blue and Orange Line trains every 20 minutes per direction per line and were single tracking trains at Federal Triangle, Metro Center, and McPherson Square. I saw a WMATA work train for the first time at Metro Center and got some pics. I then took an Orange Line train to Dunn Loring (I didn't feel like going to Vienna and having an 11 minute layover) and then came back to Federal Triangle. The return trip is the one where we wrong-railed. The trains ran at the normal speed on that stretch to my suprise. I went back to Metro Center to take the Red Line home.
For those of you who wish to see this operation again, it will occur from 10 PM on June 9th to 4:30 AM on June 12. That time, the track that will be open will be the Prince George's County bound one.
Also, I will probably get a scanner sometime before late June and will have part of my web page up by the time school starts (hopefully). I will keep you informed of any major progression.
As far as i can tell, the A train goes to either Lefferts Blvd or the Rockaways. I guess there's a sign on the train to which terminal it's going to. Anyway, why are they both A trains? Why can't they come up with a different letter for one of the routes, why must they both be "A" trains? I hope it's not for some historical reason, because that's a stupid reason to have the same letter for two different routes.
,,,,,,same problem I had in atlanta with the buses ..
,,,,,,same problem I had in atlanta with the buses ..
There are signs.
Why should they be different routes? It is not hard to read the sign which clearly says either "LEFFERTS BLVD", "ROCKWAY PARK" and "FAR ROCKWAY" when it isn't an R44 that scrolls through all that garbage about how it is an 8th Avenue Express.
Here in DC, we were single tracking trains on the blue and orange lines and almost everyone heard either "Blue Line to Franconia-Springfield" or "Orange Line to New Carrolton" and their signs which said "|| FRANC-SPRINGD" and "|| NEW CARROLTN" respectively. There were the few stupid people who didn't bother listening to the announcements or reading the signs and I saw them try to board the train as the doors were closing.
.....is there anything wrong with the final destination sign on the front of the train as well as the sides also......
the way it used to be ?? Also why only the letter & or number only on the front of the train ??
why was the old way wrong and now how it is done so right ?? bet nobody has an answer to his one ..!!
On the front of the new cars there are BIG numbers and letters. I guess they figure that having a huge simple thing on the front, with no other information makes it easier for people. That doesen't explain the R32/38's with indecipherable tiny letters atop the doors.
I'm surprised you haven't suggested that the train letters be made of one-way polarized material, so windows could be installed on the left side of the front car, to see out the front, like Chicago. ;-)
I'm surprised you haven't suggested that the train letters be made of one-way polarized material, so windows could be installed on the left side of the front car, to see out the front, like Chicago. ;-)
Since going to OPTO, all Chicago 'L' cars are being refitted with full-width cabs, so the railfan window is rapidly becoming a thing of the past here in the windy city.
-- Ed Sachs
The digital sign was required because of the addition of Air Conditioning units to the rebuilt cars. The mechanical componants didn't fit the front of the car, but a nice, slim, albiet poorly designed and maintained electronic unit installed.
-Hank
......my question is for example the ""A" train pulls in which one is it ?? ....... you have to look at the side first ??
If you are standing at the station head (at, say, 59th Street-Columbus Circle), and an "A" train comes in, you haven't got a clue as to whether it's going to Lefferts or Far Rockaway. You must look at the side destination signs to determine the route.
This is true of all three cartypes currently running on the "A" - the R44, the R38 AND (yes, they're out there) the regular R32.
Wayne
...............i agree with you 100 % ...... the r 38s and 32s should have kept thier orighinal roller signs like
the redbirds did ......
When the redbirds go, bulkhead destination signs will disappear altogether. Looks like we all have to get used to the way things were in the pre-triplex days ...
What do you mean, the R-142s have bulkhead destination signs, albeit, electronic. Also, there will still be bulkhead signs on the R-32/38s, albeit, electronic garbage.
Peace,
ANDEE
The R142's have no bulkhead destination signs, only route signs. Neither do the R32/R38 cars as well. Destination sins mean where the trains is going, like "E242nd. St" or "Bowling Green".
See attached pic of an R142:
You would think with the use of the LEDs they could have thought to program them to alternatly display both the route of the train and the destination a la the side signs on the R-44s and R-46s or the front of almost any MTA bus in the system.
The R110B had front end destination rollsigns. I'm sure they could have been installed had the TA wanted them.
Yes I realized what you meant after I posted. Thanks for the pic.
Peace,
ANDEE
At least there are route signs today. Before the Triplexes, there weren't any signs at all up front (my biggest complaint about the BMT standards). You could tell by the marker lights what train it was and where it was going. In all fairness, most trains keep the same set of terminals, so front destination signs aren't an issue there. I strongly support the idea nevertheless; however, once the last of the Redbirds are gone, the front destination sign will follow.
It wasn't until the mid to late 60s that A trains began operating to the Rockaways. As a general rule today, they alternate between Lefferts Blvd. and Mott Ave/Far Rockaway. The R-1/9 and R-10 destination curtains featured the latter sign. As for the former, both car classes had "Fulton-Lefferts Blvd.", and some R-10s had "Fulton St.-Lefferts Blvd.", which I honestly don't remember ever seeing (and I rode on dozens of A trains of R-10s).
The R38 signs are
a) Bigger
b) have bigger dots
c) have more dots
d) have a brighter lite
They also seem to clean the glass regularly.
The R32s? Hmmphh! Gibberish!
wayne
You can say that again.:-)
Because the main route, Fulton Street and 8th Ave, is the 'A' route. Basically, Far Rock and Lefferts are spurs. The letters/numbers are for the main route, not the spurs.
The same can be said of the 5, but if you wanted to stretch your idea, you'd have to add quite a few routes, since part-time expresses and routes that short-turn off-hours would get their own route designations. Not to mention buses...
-Hank
I do remember this correctly, don't I? At one time the last stop for the A in Brooklyn, and its eastern terminal, was Euclid Ave. The mid-fifties extension took it onto the el out to what the TA used to call Lefferts Ave.
Yes - the "A"s terminals were first Rockaway Avenue (up to 1946), then Broadway-East NY (1946-48) and then Euclid Avenue (1948-1956). They extended it east in 1956 to the former (dual-contracts built) terminus of the Fulton El - Lefferts (Avenue) Boulevard, and also to the Rockaways.
There were also various "HH" services to Rockaway, but the Lefferts end was always "A" with occasional rush-hour visits by the "E".
Wayne
My memory is from the 1946-1956 of using the station called East New York on the A. I would have to walk up a terribly long flight of stairs to get the Jamaica train at Eastern Parkway. Ironically the Carnasie train station was right above it and it was called Broadway Junction. Three different names for stations basically at the same location. Unfortunately I never rode on the A past East New York to Euclid Ave, but I remember the signs in the cars reading Euclid Ave.
A good friend has one of those old steel Lefferts Ave signs out of one of the old gate cars. I think it is a collector's item since it says Ave instead of Blvd.
The station you remember is "Broadway East NY" (that's what the wall tile says). It's getting a mini-facelift: the platform surface is being replaced and the I-beams are being painted dark blue. The wall tile is also getting cleaned; it's in relatively decent shape (no water damage) but it is a hideous shade of blue.
There are escalators linking the "J" level with the IND; have been for many years now. The elevated station complex is undergoing a serious facelift. Many changes:
Replace canopy (including asbestos removal) Eastern Parkway (J/Z)
Install new flourescent lighting under canopy Eastern Parkway (J/Z)
Install eight new cast iron platform lamps (1917 style) Eastern Parkway (J/Z)
Install skylights and new roof (interchange area) Eastern Parkway (J/Z)
Install new enclosed crossover and stairs Broadway Junction (L)
Close old crossunder and remove stairways Broadway Junction (L)
Replace roofs and station canopies (Broadway Junction) (L)
Retrofit original platform lamps with new fixtures Broadway Junction (L)
Make everything handicapped-accessible - all three stations
Modernize escalator link and put new roof over it
Install Metrocard Vending machines
Modernize station entrance Broadway East NY (A/C)
wayne
I don't remember Broadway being part of the station name, but I just checked an old map and you are right!
The escalators were rather narrow, and were in the middle (one up and one down), with stairs on either side of them. The up escalator seemed to be out of order most of the time, but the down always seemed to be working.
If all of those improvements take place, I won't know the station, but since I have not seen it in so long, I probably would not know it now!
Broadway East NY
That is one AWFUL shade of blue, no?
wayne
I didn't doubt your word, I just didn't remember Broadway being part of the station name. When you get old, they say the memory is the first thing to go.
I can't even remember the blue stripe. It sure does not look very attractive in the picture.
It's even WORSE in person. It's the color of blueberries (hence its color "Blueberry") - a sad mix of blue and grey with a touch of Olive Green thrown in for good measure. YUK!
wayne
Wayne, what are the indentations at the eastern end of the station walls for? I realize the LIRR ROW runs underneathe, but why the indents? Also where were the cutouts just down the local tracks planned to go? The LIRR Atlantic Branch? The Broadway- Jamaica Branch? The Canarsie Branch? This has been bugging me for years.
Avid
The Fulton St. line was supposed to continue along Pitkin Ave. All four tracks dead end at a bulkhead beyond the ramp which leads to Grant Ave. Legend has it that a local station at 76th St. exists on the other side of the bulkhead.
Ahh, another ridiculous legend. While the original plan was for a full Pitkin Ave. subway, the plan to capture the Fulton St. el east of Grant Ave. was already decided upon before the Second System was proposed in 1929. The plans for this "station" were cancelled 20 years before this section of the subway was even completed.
It doesn't exist
Of course, the Dual Contracts portion of the Fulton St. el was supposed to continue along Liberty, Brinkerhoff, and Hollis Aves. all the way to Springfield Blvd.
I suspect you may have The work east of Euclid Ave confused with what I'm referring to , Just east of B'way East NY.
Its the East NY cut outs I'm referring to. What were they planned for?
avid
Although I hope the MTA doesn't do this, this is the usual practice in Washington DC (buses anyway) assigning part-time expresses and routes that short-turn off-hours their own route designations.
Philadelphia had a system on it's roller signs of having a red slash
through the letter/number to indicate a short turn route. Later on, the slash was dropped, and the route number/letter was squeezed in
with the words "short route" under it.
With the electronic (ugh) signs of today, I'm sure something could be
worked out that would flash "short route" or something else to indicate this option.
I side with everyone about the problems with the "A" train. You need
something more on the front than just a big "A".
Chuck Greene
How about a sign with a lower case "a" to indicate shuttle or short route?
wayne
There have been separate designations for Rockaway routes in the past. The Rockaway shuttle (1963-1976) from Euclid Ave. was called
HH. The E train went to Rockaway Park during rush hours from 1973-
1976. This service was replaced by the CC in 1976.
05/21/2000
There should be a new letter for Far Rockaway service like (H). No sense having two routes with the same letter.
Bill "Newkirk"
Until 1997 or so, there WAS. I distinctly remember seeing R-32s signed "H Rockaway Shuttle" during a summer Nostalgia Train trip to the Rockaways that year.
--Mark
And prior to that, when double letters were in use, the HH was a shuttle between Euclid and Rockaway Park or Far Rockaway using R1-9 cars.
By the way, on NYCT internal operating documents that I have seen, the Rockaways Shuttles are still listed as H.
When the A train terminated at Euclid until the mid-1950's, there were still some underground stations before a train surfaced. Did the elevated train that went to Rockaway also go underground up to Euclid, and if not what were those stations in between used for?
huh?
There never were any trains to the Rockaways on the subway until the A connection in 1956, and Grant Avenue is the only "new" underground station added after the line was extended from Euclid Ave. At the same time it was being built, the ramp down to the LIRR tracks from the Fulton Street el was being put in place.
After Grant Ave., the A train emerges from underground and connects with the Fulton el and has three elevated stops -- 80th, 88th and Rockaway Blvd. -- before the split, with one brach going to the Rockaways, while the other continues along the original Fulton el to
Lefferts Blvd.
Mr Lee: Thank you very much. You made it very easy to understand and another major question of mine has been answered. I'm sorry I confused Pigs; perhaps my wording could have been better. Glad you understood it.
The single letter H train ran from 1985 (when it replaced the double lettered CC) until it's elimination in 1992 when the Rockaway Park spur became serviced by the now S train. It ran to Euclid Ave weekday middays (until 12/88), Broad Channel weekends, and it did the "round robin" thing late nights.
There was indeed a Rockaway Shuttle "H" which was reinstated by the TA from December 1988 until 1992. It provided service to Rockaway Park all times except normal hours (6am - 9pm weekdays) and midnight hours.
There was indeed a Rockaway Shuttle "H" which was reinstated by the TA from December 1988 until 1992. It provided service to Rockaway Park all times except normal hours (6am - 9pm weekdays).
Before there was subway service to the Rockaways in 1956, was there any way to get there besides by car? Did the LIRR go there? We always went by car but I never liked it. While my parents capitulated to me where it came to taking the Sea Beach over other trains, when it came to amusement parks and beaches they insisted on Far Rockaway. When I went to Coney Island, it was usually with friends and usually on the sly.
Until the Jamaica Bay trestle fire knocked out LIRR service in 1950, the LIRR was what you used to get to the Rockaway Peninsula. The service was built with the intent of eventual conversion to rapid transit operation; the LIRR was hoping to sell it to the IND before 1940, but that never happened. That's why it was relatively "easy" for the TA to take over Rockaway service after the LIRR sold it to the TA in the early 50s. Other than rebuilding the trestles and roadbed across Jamaica Bay, the stations on the peninsula were nearly ready for subway service by design.
--Mark
05/22/2000
I understand about the (H) & (HH) Rockaway shuttles, but to clarify things a little, What I meant in my original post is when a someone who is waiting at 59th St-Columbus Circle sees an (H) they'll know it for Far Rockaway or (A) for Euclid Ave. Still, no sense in having two routes assigned to one Letter.
Bill "Newkirk"
Doing that would needlessly confuse thousands of riders in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Basically, the difference between both A services is minor.
Yes, but the HH was a shuttle, the EE and CC went to Rockaway Park.
-Hank
The EE never went to Rockaway, let alone south of Manhattan. The CC and E never went to Rockaway simultaneously. The A has always gone to Rockaway.
Rockaway trains should have a plasma screen animated display on the front showing a family of four with two giant suitcases each pressing into a train and riding to the airport.
Lefferts trains should have a picture of the same family on the platform at Lefferts looking extremely confused, and with their plane taking off in the background....
Yes, the confusing split A service has led many people to miss their planes at JFK. Another reason to send BOTH A trains to the Rockaways and to extend the C to Lefferts.
Wow. A transit improvement I haven't thought of. I have been attempting to figure out a way to improve Rockaway service and simplify it, thought of C to Rock Pk, use an S to Lefferts, use a S from one Rockaway to the other, never thought of C to Lefferts and both As to Rockaways. I would imagine the TA never did either.
It would reuire extra cars for the C line, so it's impossible to do right now. I'm sure that southern Rockaway riders would appreciate full time thru service to MAnhattan for a change...
Would they have enough if they used 8 @ R44 for the "C" line and moved the R38s and R32s over to the "A" services? I know there are 196 R38s (not sure exactly how many devoted to the "A"), eight R32GE and an undetermined number of MKCo R32 at Pitkin and 207th Street. Would this be enough cars to field the "A"? I think that using the R44 for the "C" exclusively wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. They're certainly slow enough.
Wayne
You must not have been on an R44 lately.
Are you saying the R-44s actually approach 40 mph on the CPW run nowadays? That sounds almost too good to be true.
Yes, they max out at about 37MPH.
wayne
Untrue. The R44 routinely beaks 40mph in the Cranberry street tube and the CPW express tracks, and even on the Fulton St. express. They aint R68's.
I have yet to see the R-44s get up to 40 along CPW. Fulton St, yes. Not only are they not R-68s, they sure aren't R-10s, either.
I have, routinely. You gotta ride them more ...
Only if a train of R-38s doesn't arrive within an hour or two.:-)
c'mon, stop bashing the R44. It's very fast compared to the R68. So is the R46.
He's not going to stop bashing the R-44, just like you won't stop bashing the R-68.
What is it wit dem young'uns and there fancy shmancy R-38 wit dem fancy air conditioners? In my day, the cars had manual doors, and dem was pulled by locomotives, like real trains! And we didn't have no fancy fans, electric lights or brakes. We had to walk through 10 feet of snow, uphill both ways to get to our trains, and now these young'uns they want park and ride.
Yeah, but my R68 bashing is based on the fact that they are slow hippos. The R44 isn't.
I rode with one of our SubTalk C/Rs this past weekend, on an R-68 from 34th to W4th on the 6th Ave. IND express. Travel time from brake release to full-stop was 2:20, with peak top speed of 44 mph as displayed by the Edo Speedo.
The record time I've recorded on a Slant-40 on that same journey was 2:20, with a peak top speed of 45 mph.
These are for all intents and purposes exactly the same. So while I am a big Slant-40 fan due to its STORMFAN WINDOW and more "rocking and rolling," from this limited experiment I can't conclude that the "hippo" is slower. Yes, it feels slower, since its supension is better, and the newer, longer cars tend to track better, giving the impression of slower speed.
The only way to know for sure is to put two 600" trains side-by-side on level, tangent track, and wave the green flag.
Todd, Thank you for the unbiased report. I've been saying that it was a matter of perception all along. I hope some of our regular sub-talkers will now put the issue to rest once and for all.
Steve did a very good job proving scientifically that the R68 CAN go as fast as any other subway car. But in real life, they don't. They don't seem slower, they ARE slower, and this is from countless rides on these cars I've taken since 10/86. It's probably due more to their awful sluggishness, as they accelerate at a slower rate then molassas running downhill during the winter.
BTW, I have rarely seen an R68 speedometor top 40 MPH. Your's was unique, at least according to my experience.
Todd was that an R68A ("B" train) or a regular R68 ("D" train)?
Do your experiment starting at Sheepshead bay and the Slant will be approaching Kings Highway before the R68 gets to Neck Road.
wayne
It was a D train, Wayne. Admittedly, the experiment was over a small stretch -- 34/6 to W4th, but I've timed that over and over on Slant-40s, and the record is 2:20!
I know who you were with! BTW, when new, the R68s could make that stretch in 1:58 maxed out with almost a full service stop. I wonder why no one complains of the field shunt mods as much as they do of the R68s.
I complained very vocally about the mods on all 75' cars. In some ways, the mod was justified on the 60' cars and older 50' cars. in those cases, the HP was increased by 15% at overhaul, thereby increasing the accelleration & performance. This pushed them to operate outside of the signal envelope, making the field shunting mod questionably justifiable. However, the R-44 through R-68A were delivered with 115 HP traction motors. No changes were made during overhaul and therefore the field shunting mod should not have been done on these cars.
However, the R-44 through R-68A were delivered with 115
HP traction motors. No changes were made during overhaul and therefore the field shunting mod should
not have been done on these cars.
The R62/62A were also delivered with the 115 motors. At the time
of its delivery, I believe the R62 was the fastest car class on
the system.
Jeff, somewhere between 44 and 68 is the number 62. Those cars were inclusive in my argument.
Jeff, somewhere between 44 and 68 is the number 62. Those cars were inclusive in my argument. However, I also felt that the lack of size and weight plus the additional 920 HP per train made them too peppy so I did not include them when I fought the 'good fight' for the 75' cars with the head of Propulsion Systems Engineering.
That's a good arithmetic point!
From the outcome I'd guess the argument was unsuccessful.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I sure wish I had timed a few of those CPW A runs I took 30-odd years ago. It seemed as though the 59th-125th dash took all of two minutes the way the R-10s could motor. I remember glancing at my watch on select Saturday mornings as we boarded an A train at 42nd St. and then again as we got off at 14th. It usually took perhaps 5 minutes, but it seemed more like one minute. Not that there was anything spectacular about that stretch. Maybe it was the sheer joy of riding on the subway (we'll skip the part involving the BMT standards). My folks say now they know why I used to look forward to going to Saturday school.:)
Todd,
Did you take into account the "balsy-ness" of the train operator?
This is a big factor in determining such a "test". Even the fastest cars on the clearest road can "die" on the stretch with a whimpy operator. The road conditions 'tween 34th & W4th? Another factor to take into account.
Try a test on the upgrade sometime and see the 68's lumber along. I ride the "D" both directions daily. The city fathers that designed and built the IND are vomiting in their graves, to be sure, and not just due to the R68.
I've posted not too long ago that my opinion of the R68 of late is changing, somewhat. While they are still poor in appearance (that dull exterior finish), with good conditions they can move nicely. One operator comes to mind on the evening n.b."D"; this guy knows that downgrade on CPW at 103rd and the upgrade at 110th. He makes that baby sail right up to the curve at 116th. It's all in knowing how.
Joe Caronetti
Joe, on each ride (R-68 & Slant-40) which did the 34/6 to W4th, the controller was on the post for the entire trip.
Scientist that I am, any further experiment to compare the speed/acceleration of these two types would have to be side-by-side,
or sequential on the same track, controlled under like conditions (same M/M, same power on/off points, etc.). Subjective
arguments ("it definitely feels slower") don't work for me. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the R-68s newer construction
and larger size gives a more comfortable ride thanks to different suspension and longer distance between trucks.
If one of our NYCT friends is willing to arrange for the facilities, I'd be happy to come down and oversee the experiment to
settle this once and for all!
Todd,
I'd walk a few miles myself to witness this!
Actually, we always used to think the trains ran faster in the tunnel when in fact they did the same speeds, in certain spots, as they did in the open. The tunnel walls always accentuated the noise so the cars appeared to go faster. Sidesway another factor.
Not being a scientist, I do know when an R46 is along side an R68 at one of the 6th ave stations and the R68 starts first but the R46 makes it into the next station first there is a problem with the 68.
Could be dead motors in there, but nearly every time??
Joe
What about passenger loading, that is if the R68 is full and the R46 empty surely the latter has an advantage. l000 passengers x 130 lbs. per passenger = 65 tons more to move.
I thought sensors and electronic circutry was supposed to compinsate for that !!!
That's absolutely true. The load sensor and propulsion logic can compensate for variations in loads of up to 240 (I think) people or roughly 18 tons per car. That's a lot of Big Macs.
I've been in situations when both trains were traveling side by side, and saturated with passengers and the R46s still beat the hell out of the R68s.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no place where R-46s and R-68s currently run side by side where:
A) They are on parallel tracks.
B) Where they operate under the same restrictions of signals.
C) The tracks maintain the same grade.
D) They carry identical loads.
E) They are started at exactly the same time.
F) They are operated in exactly the same manner.
Comparisons of the type you report are meaningless because they are undocumented and uncontrolled. This discussion has gone from the expression of opinions to a point now where the arguments are becoming infantile. So if you (and others) have such a burning need to insist that the R-68 is slower than other car classes, fine. Ignore the scientific evidence. Ignore the mathematical proof offered. Ignore the common sense arguments. It's not my mission in life to prove otherwise and I really don't want to waste any more time doing so. Yes, Mr. Far rockaway A train, - there is a Santa Clause.
Was there always compensation for passenger loads? If there was, then I am puzzled by the following two situations that I observed a number of times around 1966:
8:00 A.M. Northbound R27/R30 QT leaves Kings Highway (empty) simultaneously with R32 Q (packed like sardines) with R27/30 travelling about 2 mph faster until QT slows approaching Avenue M.
3:15 P.M. Southbound R32 Q leaves Newkirk Av. (uphill) (half-full) simultaneously with R27/30 QT (half full) with R32 travelling about 2 mph faster until QT slows approaching Avenue H.
In 1966, essentially the same type of load compensation was in use albiet in a more primitive form. Back then, the car was 'weighed' each time the doors were closed and the propulsion circuits were re-calibrated pneumatically. Today, the car is weighed continuously and the compensation is made through the propulsion logic circuits.
Again, as for the situations you are relating, your observations were made under uncontrolled conditions. Hence, there is no guarantee that the trains were being operated in the same manner or that other parameters were equal.
If you didn't want to respond then you should have followed your first instinct and not respond, instead of leaving such as low classed post such as this.
Furthermore Mr. Train Dude, since you really believe in Santa Claus you couldn't possibly have any mathematical or scientific evidence as well as common sense.
Low class? In what way? I'd say it's your post and its attempt to mislead that is low-brow. On the contrary, I do want to respond to posts and to posters - to those who are capable & willing to approach a subject with an open mind. I have posted things that I know to be facts after more than 2 decades in the industry. I have provided scientific proof of what I claim. I have provided mathematical data to document my position. You, on the contrary, post one observation, made under uncontrolled circumstances and because it supports your otherwise unsupportable position, you post it as absolute fact. YOU are incorrect in your position - end of story. If you elect to cling to your fantasy - it will be you who will be incorrect. Not my concern.
BTW: The Santa Clause reference was a fairly well known reference from Journalistic History. An newspaper Editor responded to one of his young readers in a similar manner when she was reluctant to give up her belief in the man. It was not meant to be derogatory then. How you choose to view it is entirely up to you.
Save the drama for your mama. End of story!
Several years ago I took an advanced course in "Organizational Behavior" At John Jay College. Part of the course involved 2 exercises to determine our individual management style. Both results showed that my particular management style was too people oriented & not goal oriented enough. They also said that I had problems relating to people of sub-standard intelligence. This is likely why I have angered you. I do appologize.
Don't even flatter yourself. Quite frankly, you're not even worth the time it would take someone to scratch themselves.
Aren't R68's heavier than most current rolling stock, including the R44/46s? Perhaps because the "hippo" is heavy is why it may accelerate slower, yet possibly have similar top speeds.
Or, it could be (as someone put it recently) a wimpy M/M!
As another analogy, if you fly in a Lear Jet at 250 knots alongside a Boeing 747 going 250 knots, the Lear will feel as it it's going faster, and will definitely be bumpier if there's turbulence in the area.
Hopefully, if I were in that Lear jet we wouldn't be flying anywhere NEAR that "heavy"!
But I get your drift.
Joe
I guess the only route that could be an actual real-life test -- if they ever get the damn think repaired, would be if an R-68 and and R-40 began crossing the Manhattan Bridge at the same speed coming out of DeKalb Ave. That's the only place in the system I can think of where paralell tracks run for a considerable distance between stations (albeit it up and down on the bridge), and where it's easily observed.
One train, say an R-68 train on the B line would have to start on the bypass track, while the other, a Slant 40 Q back on the Broadway line, would start up from a full stop at the station. But both could reach about the same speed before beginning the climb.
Maybe sometime in 2002 or so the great experiment can be conducted. While I have to go by Todd's figures, my unofficial judgement, based on the stroboscopic effects of the support beams passing by the train at the stations on CPW, it always seems as though the strobe is slower on the R-68 D trains than on past runs with the R-10, or the current runs with the R-38s.
The thing is that some of you would not be convinced even if such a test were possible. I could see it now - 'tampering with track voltages. It seems like you are saying, "Don't confuse me with the facts because my mind is made up!"
Hey, I'm not saying you and Todd aren't right, it's just that, riding in the middle of an express on CPW, the poles just seemed to go past faster on the R-10s in the past than on the R-68s now. Maybe the smaller windows on the R-10s hightened the effect, but that's just the way it seemed.
I faithfull await the reopening of both sides of the Manny B for regular service so this burning controversy can finally be resolved -- The Great Race to Manhattan, Winner Take All :)
The I-beams DID go by much faster when riding on the R-10s. Stations were blurs. That's all I'm going to say.
Unfortunatly having both sides of Manny-B won't make a good scientific test. Too many variables with the timers, different M/M techniques, etc. The only way to do this is have some non-revenue trackage where timed "sprints" can be set up under controlled conditions. I repeat my offer -- if someone from NYCT can arrange the facilities, I'll work out the specifics of the experiment with you!
The R-68s have a higher gear ratio than the slants, according to Train Dude. While this can help achieve greater speed, it can also cause a hindrance when climbing grades. It's like tryign to climb a hill on an automobile in fourth or fifth gear vs. second or third.
Yes we had a wimp at the wheel back on May 20 aboard our Slant R40 "L" train. The way he tippy-toed around the GT's in the tunnel you'd have thought he'd tripped one in the past. He was WAY too conservative and took all the fun out of the ride. I like it when the T/O goes balls to the wall, charging and challenging the timers. Of course it's not safe (!) but it sure is fun! :o>
wayne
Spoken like a true thrill seeker.:-)
I've had fast ride on an R68 "D" from 34th to W4th and a slow ride on a slant R40 on the same stretch, same day. It all depends on the T/O. Some are way too overcautious and slowpokes. Others know how to really beat the signals. I had one T/O on an R68 "N" last week who was doing near 55mph in the 60th street tube Queensbound.
The was one of the fastest rides through 60th street. In order to have a fair race you must have two T/O's who have a similar operating style and identical tracks. In general there are alot of "slowpoke" T/O's, especially middway on the IND.
Sometimes the 7X is fast, sometimes you got a slow guy and it's slow. And that's with the so-called "fastest" Redbirds.
Perhaps we are all underestimating the T/O styles. I still don't like the R68's that much because they don't have a front window are in not so great shape. In general, I enjoy riding on R44/46's better because they have the smoothest ride. If the 68's were overhauled they'd probably be more like the R44's.
You are probably right about the "overhaul" statement. As far as I know, the 68's are not in any overhaul program; they are still as they came in. The 46's are quiet, the 44's even more so.
The 68/68A with the mirrored interiors got to go. The 44/46 is so pleasant inside. Admittedly a little dated, but easier on the eyes nevertheless.
Joe C
The SRS maintenance program was already in place when the R-68s arrived, so they've never been subjected to neglect. They have been well-maintained right from the start.
I also like the R-46 interiors, BTW.
It's been my experience that most of the Red Birds on the 7th Ave Express make good speed, especially North of Times Sq.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, indeed. Ditto for the straightaway down 7th Ave.
Well I guess a Hippo can get up to a trot if it's late for lunch, but even sitting in comfort staring at walls and other folks just ain't my idea of Railfanning ? I have a habbit of standing up in a subway car (something I leared to do since my 11 year going to & from Harlem) ... EYE can't do that in a Hippo. But the Train Dude & I do thank you for you factual report ... now Hippo bashers like me can no longer say that they CAN'T get up to that kind of speed.
Mr t__:^)
I got news for you. Lately, they have been running faster than the R32s and the R38s.
Then you truly do not ride them very often.
As a matter of fact, I only come out to the city once a year for a few days in October and get my annual subway fix. Unless I'm pressed for time, I wait for a train of R-38s when I do ride on the A.
Where do you live now, Steve?
Littleton, Colorado.
Thank you. At least somebody notices.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, especially downtown. Another location is between 59th and 42nd Sts. (southbound only) and between Howard Beach & Broad Channel (both directions).
I have seen the R-44s get up to 42-43 on that downhill sprint from 59th to 42nd. Ho-hum. With the R-10s, it was almost terrifying.
The R44 and R46 are pretty decent speed wise. An R38 A is still faster, but not by much ...
Forgiving the R44's uneven performance (OK, some of them DO move along pretty well)- if all the R44 were assigned to the "C", would there be enough R32 and R38 stock to allow the R44 "C" to serve Lefferts and the R32/R38 "A"/"H" to serve the Rockaways?
wayne
No, unless you reduce C trains to 6 car R44 trains, which would decrease C train capacity. And many A train riders would howl, seeing the R44 get demoted.
I would be doing cartwheels and/or handsprings if that were to happen.:-)
Platform length isn't an issue with the "C"; it's the number of cars.
OK would assigning the 5400-series R44 to the "A" and the remaining R44 to the "C" be enough to provide "C" service to Lefferts and "A" service to Rockaway?
wayne
How's about a digraph of a plane (like the old "Train To The Plane") but with a red circle round it and a red slash through it?
Wayne
And the conductors could say "This is an A train to NOT the airport, everyone with a big suitcase get off, stand clear closing doors"
LOL
How about a taped up sign in the cab window: PLANE - NO PLANE
Or any indication on the front as to what train goes where. Many people only look at the front and hate to check the side while the thing scrolls to the needed info; turns out the C/R left the signs on that 4 car set to 207st/Manhattan, have to run to the other set. See Far Rockaway, doors close and train leaves after you roll your luggage on.
If you're waiting in Manhattan for an A train to Far Rockaway (or, more likely, Howard Beach) and you're not sure if the train that just pulled in is the right one, get on anyway and listen to the announcements. If they're inaudible, ask your fellow passengers. You probably have aboult a half hour to determine if you're on the right train or not -- and if you're not, just get off and wait for the next one.
Actually, it would be easy for them to post a notice at the Lefferts Blvd. station that you can take the Q-10 bus from there to JFK, or make an announcement when the train pulls into the station. That would avoid the extended ordeal of having to double back to Rockaway Blvd., cross platform to another A train and take it to Howard Beach.
But that takes all of the fun out of it!
Actually its probably faster than than d*%@ airport shuttle, which always seems to be crush loaded when I ride it.
You're right. Actually making an announcement to people that got on the wrong A train that there's an alternative way to JFK on the Q-10 would make way too much sense, so there's no way in hell they'll ever do it.
I'm not sure, but from various pictures, it looked like the "E" train provided non-rush hour shuttle service between Rockaway Park to Broad Channel from 1967 until August, 1976.
But, I definately know from experience that the "CC" provided all Rockaway Park shuttle service during non rush hours (except during midnight hours when the round robin "A" from Euclid Ave. to Far Rockaway via Rockaway Park to over) as well as thru rush hour service to the Bronx. from August, 1976 until December 1988. In other words, all service to Rockaway was provided by the "CC" all times except midnight hours.
So in reality, the "CC" hasn't been a "rush hour only" route since 1976.
Today I was at Times Square on the N,R lines. I notice that all the "R" trains were R32 and some R32 trains on the "R" the roll signs were mixed with "R" and "E" and some R32 trains on the "R" said "Whitehall Street-South Ferry" why did it say that? And why some R32 had the "E" sign on the train if there was no "E" trains running? And also today I was on the Astoria Line I noticed a R68 "N" going downtown one of the cars was marked "B" in diamond (orange) and one of the other cars was marked "E" does anybody know why it was marked with both letters? (if you know write to me)
R32s on the R - Only half were R32, probably from the E before the GO. They didn't have enough time to change all the signs. As for the Whitehall st. South Ferry ones, they were supplemental service for E passengers, like when the E went to S. Ferry in previous GOs.
Odd signage in R68s - Someone like me used a screwdriver to scroll the signs to see what they could say, though they didn't put it back like I do (or at least something close, like B on a B.)
Very simply: the trains were not signed up properly. There used to be a guaranteed platform conductor at terminals to insure proper signs, but no more. With this General Order, the R32's are supposed to be signed up: Jamaica Center/Parsons (top); 95th St. Brooklyn (middle); and R B'way/4th Ave.(bottom). The train operator preparing the train for service from the yard or storage area is responsible for proper signage, but if the train is already running around when the G.O starts, there may not be someone available to change signs, or he may not have enough time to change all 20 signs. In addition, the trains from Parsons/Jamaica Center terminate at Whitehall St. during the midnite hours of this G.O., hence the sign would be correct on the midnite and wrong during the day. Swapping the R & E fleets for the 4 weeks of this G.O. may have been a good idea since R46 cars can easily have proper signs all the time. This was not done.
Bill- I have noticved many R46 with strange signs- first they say E to Whitehall (or 95th) then R to Whitehall (or 85th) and then they cycle through strange combinations such as Concourse Express, Q via Broadway, etc.
I've seen an R-44 A with the sign
Q to 179st/Queens
Q 6th Ave Line
As well as
S to Far Rockaway
S via Rockaway Park
As well as R-46s saying
R Listen for
R Announcement
A to Dyckmann St
R to 34st/Bway
R to 95st Brooklyn
R to Jamaica Center
R via 6 ave
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Address 0003 (different number for every sign).
Some of the above signs are not wacky at all.
As far as "A to Dyckman St."
During the morning rush hours, there are some northbound trains that indeed terminate at Dyckman St. Eventhough all the maps and schedules state that the Rockaway Park "A" trains terminate at 59th St., Columbus Circle, in reality they all terminate at Dyckman St.
There are also some "A" trains out of Far Rockaway that do indeed terminate at Dyckman St. during the morning rush.
As far as "S to Far Rockaway":
You will definately see this during GOH when there is no thru "A" service to the Rockaways, causing one to have to take a Lefferts Blvd. "A" to Rockaway Blvd., change for a shuttle bus to B.98th St., Playland, then change for the shuttle train (thus "S to Far Rockaway") to continue there destination. During this time the "S" shuttles between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park only. This has been going on every weekend for the past 2 months.
Sounds as if the R-46s need an "I'm so confused!" sign.:-)
05/21/2000
I don't know why Amin, but I was on the Astoria line today and I saw that same train. Nobody can accuse you of seeing things!!
Bill "Newkirk"
Hello,
The posting problems some people reported are due to some problem with our database software. When it is down handles cannot be validated. Tomorrow I'll fix the webbbs code to allow posts if the database is down, but I'd prefer to fix the database!
-Dave
Thank you, Dave, for the speedy reply to our questions, both on the Board and by private e-mail.
I knew it wasn't on my end, as the cookie was firmly in place and reading properly.
I backup my cookies and Netscape's history file after every heavy on-line session. This has saved my personal history, as Netscape has a habit of resetting its history when the file size gets over 14 MB. Mine is now above 19 MB and has been reset twice. Copy the backup file over the history file and Netscape's happy - until the next time it thinks "Time to reset the history."
.........Has anyone ever posted a jpeg or gif or a rail transit photograph or picture inside the message from your
hard drive or scanned floppy disc file.... i tried testing this came close but could not do it ...
I was told by the webmaster you have to post from your website into the message area..
The reason why I asked is because I have seen many transit photographs posted inside the ""message area""
I would like to do the same as well from my hard-drive on my macintosh if possible....
Any good answers would be helpful I am still new to this internet and computer stuff thank you .....!!
Like I said, the only way you can do it directly off your hard drive is if you are running a web server on your machine at home and you leave your machine connected all the time in order to link to it. You can't simply "paste" an image into the message field. My server does not accept uploads in that manner. Go back and look at posts with pictures in them. Use the "View Page Source" command in your browser. You'll see that each image is a link to a web server, somewhere, either this one (www.nycsubway.org) if I already had the picture on line, or on their own personal web site.
I guess I can get a free page and load as many jpegs in it ( thumnails etc..) the try to transfer it that way .
homestead and geo cities might be my best bet..... I am still quite new to this computer and the internet etc..... thank you ..!!
Anytime, good luck!
By the way you mentioned before about getting some more L.A. pictures scanned, if you want to just email them to me I can put them on the site here for everyone to look at...
-Dave
right now i am planning to send you pictures loaded to a kodak picture CD on most of them ..............
the rest of the pictures of a few chicago rail pictures at the clinton station and a calssic marta train & steam train
shots some of them were shot on the 110 film format I Hope you can stil use the chicago shots as well.....
I still have to develop and process over 200 + plus new york subway shots I took last november 1999 & march 2000 that due to everything hitting me at one time &...........................................................
high coists plus getting all of my vidieo gear overhauled for this october or setember-- PROJECT REDBIRD etc...
and of cource " building up my credit cards "" for the high costs of lodging at new jersey or new york ...
I am sorry sir..... I would have sent this to you earlier except for the costs all coming at one time.......
hopefully next month or so the CD will be loaned to you for as long as you need it with all of the pictures....
I plan to go station to station this summer and cover the good bad and ugly of all of these ""OVERBUILT STATIONS "
It is very hard for me with my modest low income but somehow I will get it all done for you ...here in Lost Angeles ..
My thanks as I am still getting very good reviews to my vidieos I still need to send you some of those as well !!
Please excuse any mistakes as my eyesight is not as good as as it once was even with new $ 1.oo glasses.....!!...
Thank you again to yourself for this forum and all of the good folks of NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES...... !!!...
right now i am planning to send you pictures loaded to a kodak picture CD on most of them ..............
the rest of the pictures of a few chicago rail pictures at the clinton station and a calssic marta train & steam train
shots some of them were shot on the 110 film format I Hope you can stil use the chicago shots as well.....
I still have to develop and process over 200 + plus new york subway shots I took last november 1999 & march 2000 that due to everything hitting me at one time &...........................................................
high coists plus getting all of my vidieo gear overhauled for this october or setember-- PROJECT REDBIRD etc...
and of cource " building up my credit cards "" for the high costs of lodging at new jersey or new york ...
I am sorry sir..... I would have sent this to you earlier except for the costs all coming at one time.......
hopefully next month or so the CD will be loaned to you for as long as you need it with all of the pictures....
I plan to go station to station this summer and cover the good bad and ugly of all of these ""OVERBUILT STATIONS "
It is very hard for me with my modest low income but somehow I will get it all done for you ...here in Lost Angeles ..
My thanks as I am still getting very good reviews to my vidieos I still need to send you some of those as well !!
Please excuse any mistakes as my eyesight is not as good as as it once was even with new $ 1.oo glasses.....!!...
Thank you again to yourself for this forum and all of the good folks of NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES...... !!!...
right now i am planning to send you pictures loaded to a kodak picture CD on most of them ..............
the rest of the pictures of a few chicago rail pictures at the clinton station and a calssic marta train & steam train
shots some of them were shot on the 110 film format I Hope you can stil use the chicago shots as well.....
I still have to develop and process over 200 + plus new york subway shots I took last november 1999 & march 2000 that due to everything hitting me at one time &...........................................................
high coists plus getting all of my vidieo gear overhauled for this october or setember-- PROJECT REDBIRD etc...
and of cource " building up my credit cards "" for the high costs of lodging at new jersey or new york ...
I am sorry sir..... I would have sent this to you earlier except for the costs all coming at one time.......
hopefully next month or so the CD will be loaned to you for as long as you need it with all of the pictures....
I plan to go station to station this summer and cover the good bad and ugly of all of these ""OVERBUILT STATIONS "
It is very hard for me with my modest low income but somehow I will get it all done for you ...here in Lost Angeles ..
My thanks as I am still getting very good reviews to my vidieos I still need to send you some of those as well !!
Please excuse any mistakes as my eyesight is not as good as as it once was even with new $ 1.oo glasses.....!!...
Thank you again to yourself for this forum and all of the good folks of NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES...... !!!...
right now i am planning to send you pictures loaded to a kodak picture CD on most of them ..............
the rest of the pictures of a few chicago rail pictures at the clinton station and a calssic marta train & steam train
shots some of them were shot on the 110 film format I Hope you can stil use the chicago shots as well.....
I still have to develop and process over 200 + plus new york subway shots I took last november 1999 & march 2000 that due to everything hitting me at one time &...........................................................
high coists plus getting all of my vidieo gear overhauled for this october or setember-- PROJECT REDBIRD etc...
and of cource " building up my credit cards "" for the high costs of lodging at new jersey or new york ...
I am sorry sir..... I would have sent this to you earlier except for the costs all coming at one time.......
hopefully next month or so the CD will be loaned to you for as long as you need it with all of the pictures....
I plan to go station to station this summer and cover the good bad and ugly of all of these ""OVERBUILT STATIONS "
It is very hard for me with my modest low income but somehow I will get it all done for you ...here in Lost Angeles ..
My thanks as I am still getting very good reviews to my vidieos I still need to send you some of those as well !!
Please excuse any mistakes as my eyesight is not as good as as it once was even with new $ 1.oo glasses.....!!...
Thank you again to yourself for this forum and all of the good folks of NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES...... !!!...
Gee no railfan window into the database???
Well, the pictures themselves aren't in a database. If there were the ability to directly upload files to my web server it would be filled with warez, mp3z and pr0n before you could blink...
-Dave
yes i shot plenty of railfan window still pictures .......the ones i have developed so far were something else .....
What exactly do the people in the booths beside turnstiles on WMATA actually do?
Answer questions, give directions and help passengers decipher the farecard machines, the addfare machine, and the turnstyles themselves.
That's the infomation booth. It mainly help out of town people from the country how to use the fare system (don't fold the card, don't throw it away until you exit, etc) or how to get to the mall (not that mall, the Smithsonian.
They don't sell anything.
Just help people who need it. If there is a problem with your farecard or SmarTrip or if you are having a problem with a machine.
So if someone were to jump the turnstile, would they do anything?
I imagine they would. I have never done such a thing but the faregate makes a loud sound when 2 people try 2 pass through (like when i'm with my sister who doesnt pay b/c she is 2 young). It will beep and the station manager will glance to see what is going on.
They're instructed to shoot to kill.
Yes, because they are also the security people for their station. They have TV monitors in the booth that display every part of the station, including outside escalators, elevator waiting areas, the entire platform, etc. So if anything happened, they can use their intercom to talk to people anywhere in the station, call police, and communiate with station security at any other station.
If anyone jumped the turnstile, all station personnel would be notified and the person would probably be caught... because, A) the person was video-taped, B) the person could not exit anywhere else without jumping the turnstile or telling the station personnel somewhere else that their card was "lost."
Of course, most of the time they are telling people how to used the darn farecards.
Speaking of which...
They now have SmarTrip cards which have a computer chip transponder in them, just like EZPass. You just wave it over the transmitter, and bingo the right amount is subtracted. BUT WAIT... Next year the computers MAY be upgraded to figure out how you are using your card each day. If you have surpassed the cost of a 1-day pass ($5) for that day (after 9:30 weekdays, all day on a weekend), the rest of your rides will be free for that day. If, over a month, you have spent as much as a monthly pass, the rest of your rides for the month will be free. Is that not ingenious?? Then I would never need to decide whether to use my SmarTrip card or buy an all-day pass again.
Those are not videos. My bike was stolen from the Metro and even though there was no camera that covered the area of the bike rack, the police officer told me that they only monitor, don't tape.
What is the age limit for various MTA jobs, like car cleaner (forgot the official name), conductor, and train operator?
I dont know about age limjit but to be hired you must pass medical. Certain jobs such as conductor or train operator are classed "Safety Sensitive" (Nopt the entire list of safety sensitive jobs) and certain conditions will either place you on medical hold with a request for further tests at a private physician or specialist or outright disqualification.
The scope of the exam varies with job title and your age-- over 50 requires EKG.
If placed on medical hold you must clear it as soon as possible if you wish to be considered for that postion.
No job posted by the MTA has an age requirement or limit. As Subway Buff correctly points out, if you are applying for a position classified as 'Safety Sensative', there are some medical considerations. Even in non-safety sensative titles a physical is still required. Again, to answer the question, there are no numerical age limits.
I meant minimum age. Not yet 18, need a job, want something other than filing.
Jobs not requiring filing for Civil Service exams are posted at 370 Jay Street on the 1st Floor. The requirements are listed in the posting. They usually require a level of education which tends to set a minimum age by its nature.
05/21/2000
This question may have been posed here on this board, but here goes.
Does anybody know when the all the TA's stations will have MVM's and station agents will no longer sell Metrocards and tokens? At least a target year?
Bill "Newkirk"
In the most recent edition of the Cubic newsletter "Collection Point" they said "By the end of 2000, it is planned that a total of 2,594 ticketing machines (MVM) will be installed ..."
Mr t__:^)
I just wanted to say "Thanks" to all the SubTalkers (and others) who joined in yesterday's interesting trip to photograph and view the Atlantic Avenue station & structure before it is altered in the upcoming MTA Capital Projects program.
Meeting up at B'way-East New York at 11 a.m. was Andee, Stef, Doug, Ken, Tom and Mike.
We stopped over at Atlantic Ave. and photographed the remaining structure, including the pre-dual contracts tower on the old Fulton Line's island platform. Also, photo ops were provided by the LIRR's now-defunct Sub-Station #2, which is sandwiched between the eastern and western arms of the Atlantic structure.
Moving down the line we stopped off at Livonia and witnessed a track crew working on a switch on the IRT New Lots Line just above the Canarsie's platform. There was a diesel unit with an R-15 as a tender and one of the Mantis crane cars attached to it. The switch at Juinus Street station was also being worked at the same time (NYCT trying to avoid weekday rush-hour service, apparently).
Next stop was New Lots Avenue, where we inspected the stationhouse which is a red-bricked structure that had indications of having been in service prior to station-based fare collection (only a photo can do this any justice).
At Rockaway Parkway, Tom had to depart on his way back to the island. The rest of the group walked the 1/2 mile south to Jamacia Bay, paralleling the old Canarsie Lines's ROW the entire route. We got glimpses of BRT fencing at various points along the way (mostly between houses and back yards).
Unfortunately, due to the threat of rain, a promised antique auto show ended up not happenning at all. A few car owners had participated in the morning, but were gone by time our group arrived at the Pier. At least my car was able to transport the tour members back to the Rockaway Parkway station for the ride home (it was one of the few cars parked for the show).
I appreciate everyone who came on this trip. Hopefully, I see all of you on future excursion.
Doug aka BMTman
Thank You. I probably should have brought my own camera for the excursion!
By the way, you forgot to mention the R40 train we saw on the flyover, heading south on K1 towards Canarsie.
-Stef
Don't forget that picture you guys got for Kevin Walsh. As usual an excellent and informative afternoon. THANKS!!
ANDEE
I'm surprised that tower hasn't blown over!
[I'm surprised that tower hasn't blown over!]
Heh heh, you want to see a tower that's seemingly about to blow over, take the LIRR out to Patchogue and get a look at "PD Tower!"
PD Tower
That tower has been leaning that wasy since before 1960. I have photos of it taken then.
And it's been through a couple hurricanes to boot, and it hasn't moved an inch.
At the last minute, I was granted permission to go on the field trip inasmuch as the threat of rain killed any chance of any family-related activities. After parking at the Metropolitan Avenue terminal of the 'M', I arrived at Canarsie at 1:00 and criss-crossed the right of way on foot all the way down East 95th and 96th Streets to the pier.
As Doug stated, the antique car show appeared to have never gotten off the ground. By then it was drizzling steadily so I caught the B42 back to the station. I got the front window of a 'J' all the way over the Bridge, but visibility was very poor. At Chambers, the conductor advised those wishing to continue downtown and to Brooklyn to change for the '4', '5' and '6'(!).
Since having walked to ROW six years ago, I noticed a lot more of it has succumbed to housing and alleys with NO TRESPASSING signs. There appeared to be a clear swath of it between Flatlands and J that has become a side yard for the VFW post. New housing seems to have been built between Seaview and the parkway. Some kind of street fair had Saint Judes Place closed off next to the Jewish Education Center, preventing any exploration in that area.
There's still that fenced off property between Glenwood, Conklin, 95th and 96th with posted signs claiming ownership of the MTA. A commercial strip on Avenue L completely obliterated any evidence of the ROW.
Couldn't help noticing that the bus gates facing Rockaway Parkway were wide open with no bus in sight both times. This enabled people to bypass the fare control and stroll right onto the platform. No TA resistance was offered whatsoever. I thought those gates only opened to let B42s out after loading.
We must have just missed each other at the pier, but it wouldn't have made much sense to linger. Even the usual spectacular views of the Rockaways and its bridges were lacking. I figured the group would have been easy to spot. We DO stand out in a crowd.
Do you think we're EVER going to have temperatures between 50 and 90?!
Better luck next time-
Hey, Howard!
Sorry you missed us. It sounds like you missed us because we when down to street-level at two locations for photo ops: Atlantic Ave. and New Lots Ave. We spent a good 1/2 hour checking out all three platforms there. Then we stopped and got some shots at New Lots (one of an old staircase at the fare control building and one of an old Liquor store ad fadding on the side of the Canarsie ROW retaining wall).
We didn't get to Canarsie Pier till near 2:00 p.m. Sounds like you road straight to Rock Parkway and walked down the ROW briskly to the Pier. Yes, we too encountered the block party that was setting up over on St. Jude's Place (actually a renamed portion of Rockaway Pkwy prior to modern development of Canarsie).
You might have seen an old car there -- a big Chrysler that looked alot like the New Yorker model of the late 60's? That was my car (land yacht) that I used to ferry everyone back to Rock Parkway station. I was such a nice guy about it, I didn't even ask for the guys to swipe their cards as they entered ;-)
Again, sorry you missed us. At least you got to ride the line and view it before the dreaded date arrives for demolition (BTW, no date has been mentioned as the contract has yet to be awarded, but rest assured that the work would probably commence before the end of the year).
Doug aka BMTman
You mention the bus gates at Rockaway Parkway. I noticed the same thing the one time I rode the L out to the last stop, but I was very impressed that I did not see a single person walk into the station via the open gates (although many used them to exit).
I just want to say thanks to all. I'm a lurker more than a poster.
I would like to say that this Sunday was an enjoyable and educational time. Thanks to Doug and the others.
Ken
p.s. we also saw a wrong-railed LIRR east-bound to Jamaica.
It was a pleasure meeting you.
Peace,
ANDEE
You're right Ken. I forgot about that.
Thanks for coming. And glad you enjoyed yourself.
See ya on the next trip!
Doug
I had fun!!!!! Great to meet some of the faces of SubTalk. Gotta do it again!!!!!!!
3TM
Mike, no problem -- you're on the "Designated Trip List".
It was good to meet you. You lucked out that we were still at B'way Junction before we headed out or you would have ended up like Howard Fein (the solo tour)!
Better late than never, right?
Doug aka BMTman
I might be planning on riding the L and J train this week. What are the safest parts of the J train to ride on, as well as the L? I don't plan on riding the entire lines but wonder how far into Brooklyn I should go. I will be riding in the afternoon, and just wondering what those lines are like since I've never been on them.
Sorry I couldn't make it to the "L" train excursion but Sunday LI Bus service is lousy so I couldn't make it.
As far as safety is concerned I don't imagaine any one area is a problem area over another. I would firmly recommend riding the J if not inentirety at least from Essex to the first underground stop in Jamaica. It's the longest elevated ride in the city, some of the scenery might be depressing but as a whole looks OK. If it weren't fro the trains or vehicles in the street much of the line could be a throwback of 100 years. I never saw much o0f interest on the L except the neat tile work on the signs at Montrose and Bushwick-Aberdeen. Nice colors. From Broadway Junction to Canarsie is outdoors, the rest with one brief exception underground and pretty twisty. The el part of the L worth a ride; the J an absolute must. If you're concerned aboutsafety don';t make valuables too obvious; II had no problems last couple of times I was in NYC.
I'd second that. Other than in the middle of the night, you need to worry about the safety of stations, not trains.
About how often does the J run, and how long does it take from Jamaica to Manhattan?
I've never felt uncomfortable or threatened riding the trains, but since I'm guessing you'll be at the front window, just bang on the cab door. The J is well worth the ride, as it the outer part of the L
The safest places to ride are always either the first car or the middle of the train -- preferably nearest to the Conductor's car.
However, if your riding in daylight hours I'd say any part of the train on the J or L lines should be okay.
BTW, you should be aware that both the J and L lines run pre-R-44 cars, so railfan window-equipped trains are all you will find. Therefore, you should have a GREAT time on thos lines. Enjoy the rides!
PS- here's a hint for making your trip easier for you: You can take your LIRR train/bus to Jamacia and get the J line at the terminal at Suphtin Blvd. Take the J to B'way Junction and you can switch there to either a Manhattan-bound L train (some curves, but boring subway running), or a southbound train to Rockaway Parkway where you'll have great scenery including the shared embankment with the LIRR's Bay Ridge line -- not to mention the street-grade running south of New Lots Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
One of the main reasons I am especially curious about the J, is because all the trains (mostly R42s) have railfan windows and
the line is mostly an El.
I was riding my bike around Brooklyn yesterday afternoon, when it began to rain. After waiting most of an hour for it to stop, I said to heck with it, and I rode to a nearby subway station to get home. (By the way, this is one of the many things I love about the subway -- it makes bike-riding easier. The consequences of getting caught in the rain or of getting a flat tire are greatly reduced. Bike access to the subway is a beautiful thing.)
So, I was waiting for a Jamaica-bound J to take me home to Woodhaven, when I noticed a sign above that track which was announcing daytime Z service -- to Metropolitan Ave.!
After doing a few double-takes at that sign, I asked the motorman of an M train across the platform about it. He said the sign was wrong, and that I was about the 99th person to ask about it.
Then I asked him why they didn't just cover the "Z" with an "M" decal. He sarcastically said that that would be too easy, that they had to get a committee, and a study, and so forth. Then he launched, in a manner worthy of a John Cleese, into a one-man characterization of a high-level MTA meeting on the issue that went something like:
FIRST MTA EXEC: You think we should put a decal?
SECOND MTA EXEC: Duh, I don't know, what do you think about a decal?
THIRD MTA EXEC: Uh, er, maybe; I'm not sure.
As the train pulled out, he was still riffing on the whole "decal" thing.
So, until the correct forms necessary to requistion a decal are filed, there will no doubt be people at Myrtle Ave. who get on Jamaica-bound Z trains thinking they are going to Metropolitan Ave.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Speaking of signs, has anyone ever noticed that the N/B 4/5/6 platform at Union Sq. has no signs at all indicating what station you are at from aprox. the conductors position south. This has been this way since the "renovation". Really, no signs on the poles, no platform signs whatsoever indicating the station. If you are in the last 5 cars of a N/B 4/5/6 you can see this incredible phenomenon yourself. Check it out!
Peace,
ANDEE
For you and Mr. Cesarano I will say leave it to a public agency/bureacracy. Have a good day... ralfans shouldn't care..we know where we're at!
This is true, however I have complained about the situation at 14th St. to the TA at least 3 times to no avail. Since many members of TA mgmnt. "lurk" here it just might get done. Besides, don't you want tourists and the casual rider to enjoy our system too?!?
Peace,
ANDEE
Actually, signs are kindof necessary in my case. I fall asleep unless I am standing. I loose track of what station was last and what is next. I have never mistaken 14st for something else (please stand clear of the moving platforms is good enough ID, plus offset station), but I have several times gotten off at 67th instead of 63rd on the QB line, and realize my mistake only after viewing the sign or running into the gate that is present at the stair in the same position at 67th as the one I always use at 63rd, though the 63rd one has no gate.
Clinton-Washington on the G still has signs showing G to 179!
At least that was true at one time. Similarly, my friend who lives uptown tells me that he sees many signs indicating the C train going to the Bronx.
However, the Myrtle Ave. sign is just a plain error. It would be like a sign showing the A train going to Jamaica, or the F going to the World Trade Center. Just wrong.
Frankly, I am surprised at the lack of interest on this board about this potentially very confusing sign. One guy even said that "railfans shouldn't care" about incorrect signs!
Utter nonsense! (And that's being kind.)
Signage is one of the most interesting aspects of the subway, and the topic deserves PLENTY of attention and comment in any case, even when there are no errors!
In fact, signs are so cool, that, ever since Pigs posted that "White Plains Road/Castle Hill Ave." sign from the kurumi.com SignMaker website, I have been spending lots of time there adapting the highway signs to a higher and more noble purpose, namely subways! You can make cool-looking subway signs by placing the route letter/number inside a circle (NJ state route symbol), square (Conn.), or diamond (NC).
So, don't be telling me not to care about signs!
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. - that SignMaker site is at http://www.kurumi.com/roads/signmaker/signmaker.html
Oops.
The above message was meant to be a response to Subway-buff, message 121702.
Although I do talk to myself at times.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I was at Myrtle Ave months ago switching from the J to the M and the sign was wrong then. (The wait for the M was a long one, so I had lots of time to stare at the blatantly incorrect information the signs showed.) The MTA website should have a form to submit things like this-- the NYCDOT has a form on their website for street signage, and the couple of times I submitted missing or misdirected signs they fixed the problem less than 2 weeks later.
thanks for the reply.
I saw the Superintendent of the sign shop at Brooklyn Bridge on the 4 one day and told him of another error. He did make a note of it and it was fixed. Perhaps someone is reading this who can correct Clinton- Washington on the G
I took a picture of that sign, to be put on TP9, which will be uploaded tomorrow.
Sounds like a variation on the How-many-(blank)-does-it-take-to-change-a-light-bulb joke.
Can anyone explain to me what the extra platform under the Muncipal Building at Chambers Street in Manhattan used for? When was the last time they saw service and what was the route structure?. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
This link should answer your questions.
Chambers Street
Peace,
ANDEE
It's kinda complicated. Todays Chambers St. station is much less significant than it was when it was opened in 1913. Then, it was a major terminal for trains coming off the Manhattan Bridge (this service was terminated in 1967) and from trains coming off the Williamsburgh Bridge, via Centre St (today's J/M/Z lines). The stations south of Chambers weren't opened until 28 years later, in 1931. The center and side platforms haven't been needed, nor have they been used since.
Also remember, from 1913 to 1917 the LIRR, using the Chestnut Street connection, terminated at Chambers. (Before 1913 it terminated at Delancie)
I wonder why they decided to stop serving downtown Manhattan.
"I wonder why they decided to stop serving downtown Manhattan."
From Pg 16 of "Change At Ozone Park":"Even with the extensions, the joint-service usage by the publc declined after the opening of LIRR service to Pennsylvania Station. By 1917, the United States was formally involved in World War I, and ridership in the joint service was at an all-time low. The two partners in the agreement chose this as a good time to terminate the service; it ended on September 3, 1917."
Might be another item although I won't swear it's the reason: wkth the creation of the United States Railway Admn. during the First WW I kind of judge that urban transit operations were at that time divorced by law from mainline railroads. Of course the North Shore line from Chicago to Milwaukee, which was a common-carrier RR under the ICC (also the CA&E) both ran over the Chicago elevated into the city; I'd imagine there were others. Staten Island Rwy, PATH, etc are still "railroads" under the FRA but NYCT isn't...it ought to be.But combined "railroad" and "subway-el" operations are normally gone for years. At least during the smae hours. It's a thought and may be one of the reasons.
Of the various types of PCC made between 1936 and 1952, what are your favourite kinds? Particularly, do you prefer the all electric or air electric body designs? Also, perhaps some of you who operate them at streetcar museums can answer this one, which are better, for lack of a better term, to drive/operate, and maintain?
For riding, I personally liked the all electric PCCs, because they had the little row of standee windows. The strobe effect that happened when looking out the standee window in one PCC, through the standee windows of a PCC passing in the opposite direction used to fascinate me.
As for operating, I suspect that an air PCC might be a little easier to operate than an all electric car, due to the configuration of the deadman pedal, which was simply held to the floor unlike the all electric PCCs where you have to hold the deadman in the safe range approximately halfway down to prevent the car from going into the emergency stop mode with full brakes and the clanging gong.
I suppose all electric cars are easier to maintain, as they don't have a pneumatic system to worry about, and the added electrical functions are an extension of equipment already found on the PCC (MG set, batteries, the whole low voltage system basically).
What are your thoughts?
-Robert King
I prefer Pullman-Standard built cars, particularly standard air-electrics. Pullman's standard air-electric production was 254 cars for Baltimore Transit and 1 for Cincinatti. Only 1 car, BTC 7407, survives in the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.
..........another one might be at the orange transit museum in perris california i cant wait to go there...........
they have a webpage so you can check it out ...........
As Dan said, the only PS air-electric to survive is 7407 at BSM. There are at least seven PCC cars at OERM, of which three are operable and four are not. (There may be more but that was all I saw when I was there in March - somewhere I've got their roster but I can't find it right now to check.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I like the ones DC had and Newark has - I guess those are all-electrics.
wayne
........any los angeles pcc car riders out there ???
The DC cars were one window shorter than a standard car. I think they were the only cars that were smaller than the standard car. Several over sized options including the 9' wide 50' long Chicago cars were built.
My favorites are the Toronto 4500 series 46' 8'4" all electrics.
I remember reading in a number of places that the PCC bodies were designed to be somewhat modular, so that window length sections could be added or removed as length requirements dicatated.
People seem to like the Toronto 4500 series (4500 - 4549, class A8, A15 after 2nd rebuild) over the other various other classes of all electric PCC made, for some reason. True enough the 4500s are nice cars, and the windows do go up all the way, which is quite unique, but those PCCs are missing several things.
The 4500s don't have the window cranks, unlike all others (to the best of my knowledge, at least) which had the cranks to raise and lower the windows. The 4500s also don't have the decorative steel panelling inside, between the normal windows and standee windows either. Again, to the best of my knowledge, they were the only PCCs constructed like this - missing several things that all other PCCs had.
On the other hand, is this the reason why people like those PCCs more than others?
-Robert King
..........the los angeles pcc cars are still running at the perris california orange railway museum ......
A muesum with PCCs running is the next best thing to having a streetcar network with PCCs running...
Does the museum have a website? If so, what's the link?
-Robert King
Orange Empire Railway Museum
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A muesum with PCCs running is the next best thing to having a streetcar network with PCCs running...
Would these be Los Angeles MTA PCCs or the Pacific Electric PCCs, or examples of each?
Does the museum have a website? If so, what's the link?
-Robert King
no message
I think people like them because they survive. Thats my reason.
DC had all air-electric PCC's, even the 1400 and 1500 Standee-window cars. Capital Transit did not buy any all-electrics. The Newark car are all-electric, and were purchased secondhand from Twin City Rapid Transit.
Photo taken Wed. August 12, 1953: Twin City #360 is delivered to Newark.
(photo credit: E. A. White, TMNY catalog #462)
Personal preference: Pacific Electric's double-ended cars, first because they're double-ended and second because of the fantastic paint scheme. Second choice: Illinois Terminal's double-ended cars. Third choice: the cars that ran in Barcelona, Spain (ex-Washington, DC I believe) that I rode just before abandonment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course I've got to be partial to Phila and the 2100's were my favorites of the various groups operated here. Although conductors were nearly phased out before I arrived on the scene, I also liked the air cars with conductor booths (I actually recall seeing a conductor still working Route 56 in my youth, after hearing my dad tell me about trolley conductors whenever we saw a car with a booth still intact).
I was not a big fan of the Kansas City group (2200's). The blinker doors were oddballs on the Phila system and those at the center seemed to be quick on the draw when closing. The group also seemed not as peppy as the others on PTC/SEPTA.
I enjoyed the Toronto expatriates while they were here, although the ex-KC cars of this group seemed to have the same problems as their brethren (you'd have thought that TTC would've worked that out of them!). The ex-Birminghams were different, being the only Pullman PCC's locally, but they didn't last very long.
My two favorite rides on PCC's were in the subway-surface tunnel and on the stretch of Main St, Darby (Route 11) just leaving Phila, a narrow street on an upgrade with a few gentle curves that always tested the mettle of the cars. A close third would be the short stretch of tunnel on 5th St (Route 50) under the Ben Franklin Bridge plaza.
Well, I just got back from my trip to Atlanta.
We left Wednesday afternoon on the 4:30 Crescent out of 30th Street.
We had several serious delays(including one in which we sat in the middle of nowhere Virginia for 2 hours with no lights or ventilation/AC.
We got to Peachtree station 3 hours later than scheduled. I was surprised that a city built upon railroads had such a sorry station. Our cab driver explained that since Atlanta is such an air traffic hub with Hartsfield and since only two trains go through the city a day, it's not a rail hub like it used to be.
We stayed at a retreat in Norcross about 30 miles from town so I wasn't able to ride MARTA until yesterday in the rain!
I got on at Arts Center(after hotfooting it all the way from the Amtrak station) and rode out to the Airport, then I took the E/W Line from Five Points to Hamilton Holmes(though the train I had still said Hightower) and then did the Proctor Creek branch. By the time I made it back to Five Points it was an hour before my train was ue so I went back.
My impression of the system: Not unlike the DC Metro. Large distance between stations, large roomy(yet uncomfortable) cars and spacious, airy stations. I was surprised at how massive Five Points was. It must have been murder on downtown when it was under construction.
But it doesn't end there! As my train was pulling into Baltimore this morning on the way home, what should I see going south from the station but a full Acela EX set with HHP-8. The train wasn't going much faster than us but I knew it when I saw that slanted nose. I hope someone got a picture!
All in all, the trip was alright. I found Atlanta nice to visit but I still prefer Philadelphia over what I saw.
One of my disappointments last summer when I was in New York for 12 days was my failure to touch base with any of my rail fan colleagues. I will be in New York for three days on, I believe August 16-18, and would love to get in touch with some of you guys that live in the city. I have already got two railfans who might join up with me, and would think it great totake a rail tour around the city. Let me know if you will be in town on those days. I'm afraid I can't make that nostalgia trip as that comes two weeks before.
I no longer live in NYC, but I can arrange to be in town during those days.
Wayne
Wayne: E-Mail me at fperitor&ausd.k12.ca.us and as soon as I know where I'm staying with the group I'll get in touch. I don't plan on taking the city tour with them but with strike out on my own with a few railfan buddies---I hope.
Hey Wayne: Alan Glick and Thurston of our website have said yes to a trip when I get in town. BMT Jeff might also. That would be great to get a bunch of railfans together for a tour. I'm also working onthe possibility of leaving my group of baseball tourists behind in Boston when the trip ends and returning to New York City for a few days of riding the trains. I'll keep you posted.
Does this mean the 2 will go to dyre avenue now? or will it always go to wakefield and be express? also, if they go express in peak direction, does that mean they come up local in the morning?
The 2 express will go ro Wakefield.
the line from Jackson to E180 has 3 tracks. In the AM rush, express runs to Manhattan and in the PM rush to the Bronx. At all other times, the 2 runs as a local.
I get it. I just don't see the
reasoning behind it. Better not
put down any lay-ups on the center
track otherwise we'll read it in
newsday....
They have been running express trains between 180 and 149-3rd since my parents were dating, and I'm 49. Back then they were called Thru-Express trains.
The change is that during rush, all #2 run express in the Bronx, and half of the #5 trains run express (238 St), with the other half (Dyre) running local. This way 3/4 of the trains in that part of the Bronx run express, and the section south of 180 St. still gets 5-minute service during rush hour, which is better than many other lines during rush hour.
Error of mine.... The local section will get 8-10 minute service, unless they change the ratio between Dyre Avenue and 238 St. #5 trains.
To sum it up, the only change is that as far as rush hour express/local service is concerned, the "2" and the Dyre Ave. "5" are switching places. That's all it is.
I believe the TA is doing this to eliminate the track switching at East 180th.
The way it is set up for example, the only link to the uptown Dyre Ave. track is from the local track. This means that the Dyre Ave., which is on the express track currently, would have to switch over to the local track, then switch over to the Dyre Ave. track (causing it to cross over in front the "2", which is on the local track, causing delays).
With the May 30th change, by having the Dyre Ave. "5" operating local on the local track, and the "2" and E. 238th St. "5" operating express (on the express track) this would eliminate any track switching or cross over because the Dyre Ave. "5" is already on the local therefore it has direct access to Dyre Ave. track. You no longer would have to cross a train over in front of another train, thus eliminating waiting time.
The same applies for southbound travel.
Does not this "improvement" also mean a 50% service reduction from 177th St and Jackson Ave?
I think the 238th Street <5> train needs a different number.
James Li
<2> would work.
I'm talking about using the numbers OVER 7. I would use 8 or 10 for the rush hours <5> train.
It's roughly a 35% reduction. They are losing the 2 (listed in the Sept. 1997 timetable as running "every 5-8 minutes") and gaining the Dyre Ave. 5 (listed in the March 1998 timetable as running "every 8-12 minutes") instead.
Anyone know roughly what percentage of riders on those lines get on at stations from Tremont to Jackson, compared to those boarding at or north of 180th St?
Current timetable on mta website shows:
#2 every 4-6 minutes
#5 every 8-10 minutes on each branch north of E180 and
every 4-6 minutes south of E180th
This means that stations between E180th and 3rd Ave currently get trains every 4-6 minutes to be replaced by 8-10 minute service.
At peak times this means a 50% reduction in service:
4 minute headway vs 8 minute headway or 15 tph down to 7.5 tph for a 50% reduction
Perhaps there is an associated increase in service from Dyre Ave or E180?
No, that won't work because they can't squeeze more trains onto the Lex without cutting them from somewhere else.
-Hank
Maybe 2/3 of the 5 will go to Dyre Avenue? Who knows...?
Were the headways so dense that this became a problem?
I used to use the subway all over NYC without thinking very much about crime, at least during the daylight hours. From the postings on the topic, I am wondering if people are more worried about this issue than when I used the Subway in the 1980's. If so, I am surprised, since the general level of crime in NYC is down considerably in the intervening years.
Those who seem to be worried about crime on the subways are naturally those who are not from the city and/or used to ride the subways, moved to suburban areas during the period of rampant subway crime and are therefore not knowledgable of current conditions.
Doug aka BMTman
Clean system + brighter lighting + more cops --> safer atmosphere + less fear + less crime.
The TA had to hire a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
In the 1980's, there was a very ambitious plan to totally rebuild the station all along 42nd Street, including raising the ceilings (I think) and providing direct access to the then-planned office buildings in Times Square. This plan collapsed with the late 80's real estate bust (which is just as well, because Times Square has emerged as a much better place than it would have been if the dull office buildings had been built.)
I understand that the Times Square station is being rebuilt now as part of the Times Square boom, but I have not seen any detailed description published. Does anybody have a detailed knowledge about the renovation of Times Square station?
just look at it!!
oh what a difference!!
....which leaves me to wonder
whatever came of that hot dog/record store
joint that used to be "up the ramp"
from the N or R level... is it me
or is there really something different
about it.. there IS.
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0522rail21.html
-Hank
Isn't it supposed to be the Port Authority screwing up the TA's plans for advancement? I can't belive that the TA would be against a service like that, which could benefit both NY and NJ transit. What if NJT had decided "We don't do interstate?" And anyway, NYC transit already runs buses through NJ, so this is not totally foreign to them.
Through, not TO. That's the rub.
-Hank
What about the train service to Port Jervis. Doesn't the MTA operate that, and does it have any stops in New Jersey?
I believe NJT does it, with MTA kicking in some of the cost of the NY part of the trip.
All of the PJ line trains stop at Hoboken, and several stop at Ridgewood. There are some super locals that make all stops on the Main or Bergen line in NJ.
Hmmm ... onder if NYC Transit is afraid of losing SIRT riders to St George with these passengers using the HBLR/PATH connection instead ...
--Mark
I don't expect that would be a faster trip. Maybe to the Trade Center, but having done it by car, most definately NOT to Midtown. More likely, the run would attract (and make more attractive) riders to jobs in the Exchange Place area, along with weekenders to Liberty State Park.
-Hank
I'm just wondering, how come there's no transfer between the L and the 3 at the Livonia Ave & Junius St junction?
Good question. NYCT should be made to answer that one.
My guess is that they never encouraged it, partly due to the great distance between the Livonia and Junius Street platforms and fare control areas.
Doug aka BMTman
You have to remember that when these lines were built, the IRT and BRT/BMT were private companies that would not allow free transfers between companies. When the system was unified in 1940, it was never made a priority to make this transfer free. It would not be heavily used.
In addition, a MetroCard allows a free transfer anyway, even with going outside the fare control area.
Budgets being what they are, this is not a high priority item.
--Mark
I was about to say Transfer at 14st/NYC
but then the Junius/Livonia specific
was thrown in..
You can only get a free metrocard transfer if you have an all-day, all-week or all-month card. Otherwise you can't go from subway to subway.
I recall that, circa 1960, there was indeed a complete connection between the Junius St. and Livonia Av. stations, although a separate fare was required. It was probably removed at the time the Linden yard connection tracks were built.
Doesn't the current bridge serve strictly as an exit from the Livonia Av. station? I don't think there is even an entrance turnstile there. Due to the setup of those streets and stations, those living west of Junius St must use the IRT station, while those living east of Van Sinderen Av must use the BMT station. When I lived in Canarsie (1985-88), hardly anyone boarded or got off at Livonia Av, but a fair-sized crowd did at Sutter Av.
Bob Sklar
[When I lived in Canarsie (1985-88), hardly anyone boarded or got off at Livonia Av, but a fair-sized crowd did at Sutter Av.]
Correct observation. Even today that is the case. It has to do with the fact that there is more residential dwellings around Sutter while the blocks around Livonia (by Van Sinderen) are more industrial.
Doug aka BMTman
Also the pedestrian bridge that can connect the two stations is used for neighborhood people to cross over the LIRR Bay Ridge tracks and is outside the fare control. To make a transfer you'd have to put a gate/fence all along the middle of the bridge to accomodate both the transferees and the pedestrans crossing over. But the bridge is too narrow for that. Also that bridge has historically been a robbery spot.
Has anyone seen those 3-5 black teens that do those wacky gymnastic and human rolling barrel thing (whatever it's called) in the subways lately?? The last time I remember seeing those "kids" was during a weekday afternoon when regular school should be in session.... hm.... maybe these kids were just out to make a living. Even though it was disgusting, and utterly despicable because of their contact with the dirty subway floor, it was kinda funny actually. I don't remember exactly what everyone did, but there were 2 of them that did that barrel thing where one would hold onto the other's shin, and start rolling from one end of the car to the other while the car floor stains attaches to their clothes.
Haven't seen these guys for a long time now. What happened to them?
Well, they probably got older and moved on to better things. I haven't seen them in about 5 years or more -- they used to frequent the A and D train between 59th and 125th.
One night, one of the kids apparently banged himself up early in the act. When it came time for him to be in the "rollerball thing" (I haven't got a better name for it), every time he was on the bottom you would hear this "OW!!" as they rolled the length of the car. They made some good $$ that night, people felt pretty bad for the kid.
I almost confuse them with the 5-some who
appear at various points in the system...
1 sits drumming a plastic bucket while the
4 others dance about in single or dual mode
to the music created by the first fella..
recently seen playing under the new "times
square" overlights near the (S) platforms..
also seen riding the (3) line uptown..
[I almost confuse them with the 5-some who
appear at various points in the system...
1 sits drumming a plastic bucket while the
4 others dance about in single or dual mode
to the music created by the first fella..
recently seen playing under the new "times
square" overlights near the (S) platforms..
also seen riding the (3) line uptown.. ]
Maybe that's them!!! Moving on to new stincts...
but these bucket-tapping freestyle dancing
fellas appear in tip-top form.. and they
perform under a "music under new york"
banner ala the grand central cd-selling
performers..
I once saw a "magic buggy" magician performing
ON the #3 train where he would do a few tricks
moving from car to car.. would like to know
his whereabouts.
I once saw a magician on the J train do a trick where he would stick his hat between the legs of a woman wearing a skirt that went a bit below the knees. He pulled out the hat and took out a pair of panties. Some strange sick people out there.
[I once saw a magician on the J train do a trick where he would stick his hat between the legs of a woman wearing a skirt that went a bit below the knees. He pulled out the hat and took out a pair of panties. Some strange sick people out there.]
That must've been a sight ... although I'm sure that the woman was a shill.
Saw them a few months ago on the A between 125 and 59. Only time I saw them before that was in '98 on the E between Roosevelt and 71st.
I've seen them. They almost hit an old lady on the #2 train last year.
BTW, anyone seen the crazy "horse" guy on the J line? LOL...
I think it's a NYC tradition. There were kids doing that when I was in high school in 1965. It might even be with the same paper cup...
I know that the CI master tower is quite expansive, but that there are a good number of manned towers in the subway system. What makes the TA decide wichi towers to keep manned, like 53rd st/5ave and which ones to run on punches, like 47-50 st?
Does the LIRR use individual manned towers or centralized control, or a little of both.....?
Thanks,
Dave
The LIRR uses a little of both. The LIRR happens to be one of the last bastions of manned Interlocking towers in the US with about 14 inoperation. However there were once a lot more and much of the LIRR has been CTC'd. On the bright side much of the CTCing in done inside Interlocing towers instead of some office building. There are less than 180 madden interlocking towers left in he US (discounting transit systems) o go out and see them while you can.
A tower is kept maned if its volume of operation is sufficient towarrent it. The whole of CTC is to allowone dispatcher to operate many interlockings. If an interlocking is SO busy that it needs its own dispatcher it is often better to just leave to tower open where the tower op can respond faster to situations than if he's inthe control centre.
Does anyone know how the TA partitions its ispatchers? Is it by line or geographic area?
4 PUSHING ATTEMPTS
BTW, I hope that the "anonymous good samaritan" was one of us.
Peace,
ANDEE
And I hope the "season" ends with this one guy
Me too!
Peace,
ANDEE
Question: Could the perp arrested it this lastest mass pushing incident be the one who killed Kendra Webdale in that pushing, or was that perp caught. Baltimore's new outlets don't usually carry New York news unless it's of national intrest. If there is any follow-up, its usually buried and hard to find.
The jerk who pushed Kendra Webdale to her death was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. His attempt at an insanity defense failed.
--Mark
05/23/2000
[And I hope the "season" ends with this one guy]
I hope so, copycats always surface for their moment of "fame".
Did you ever wonder why "good samaratans" always leave without making themselves known? Maybe they're afraid of being sued by the criminals usually represented by Ron Kuby.
Bill "Newkirk"
The guy didn't leave without making himself known. Turns out he's an actor on NBC's "Third Watch."
David
That guy, Ernest Mingione of NBCs 3rd Watch, was one of the people attacked. The good samaritan is still unknown.
SEE ARTICLE
Peace,
ANDEE
Sorry about that...early radio reports made it seem as if he had been the good Samaritan, not just a victim.
David
The Pusher sounds like a former New York Senator, right?
Doug aka BMTman
Rode the HBLR Saturday. Notices posted in the cars mention that effective 5/22 there would be rush hour express services from all three terminals in both directions. Interesting. They must be carrying. However, in Saturday's downpour, there were three people on my car. No wonder. Anyone going to Liberty State PArk in that weather did best NOT to take the light rail. There was no shuttle bus connection to the park or Science Center. Have any idea what a schlepp it is from the station, on a crummy old cobblestone street with puddles up the kazoo, to the old r.r.station? I suppose the persons responsible for the building of the lightrail line are the same that did the Newark mono-toy. Don't serve a purpose, folks. Lets just be cutesy!
Joe Caronetti
[Notices posted in the cars mention that effective 5/22 there would be rush hour express
services from all three terminals in both directions]
Which stops get skipped?
Arti
NJ Transit ad in yesterday's Jersey Journal announced "Bayonne Flyer"
stopping at E34, E45, Liberty State Park and Exchange Pl.
05/23/2000
flx870,
I was at Liberty State Park on Saturday with my friend but he drove at parked in the parking lot. I did a NJ TRansit shuttle bus for Liberty Science Center and Liberty State Park, but I was told they ran ever hour on the half hour!!
Maybe some better communication between NJ Transit and the train show promoters on a publicized bus schedule so people can better time there trips with HBLR.
Bill "Newkirk"
Bill, There was a guy in a van just outside the Liberty PK Light rail stop; he was parked at the grade crossing and appeared "official" as he was flagging trains thru and likewise the auto traffic. I asked him about shuttle bus connections and he drew a total blank! Same for a security guy. I stopped him as he was entering his parked Chevy Caprice. He indicated that there was weekday service but not sure about weekends. Of course, there are no signs there with info.
I opted to take the ferry back to Manhattan as it was pouring & I was bogged down with goodies I had just bought. All the while I was waiting I saw not one shuttle nor any L&G &/or M&W bus.
Joe Caronetti
05/23/2000
I guess new timetables are in order. The premier ones lasted about a month !
Bill "Newkirk"
The notice did say that new schedules would be available soon.
I hope before it gets extended to Hoboken.
Joe Caronetti
05/24/2000
Joe,
Extension to hoboken is planned for the end of 2001 from what I've heard.
As far as those shuttle buses are concerned, I did see one, a Metro-Flex flashing signs for Liberty State Park and Liberty Science Centre. But that doesn't mean anybody in range knows the shuttle was running!
Bill "Newkirk"
Just curious, did anyone other than me experience major diversions on the Brighton Beach and Stillwell lines today (around 9:30A)? They were turning the B around at Pacific St. and the D at Prospect Pk. Seems something was going on at Bway/Laff. Just curious.
Regards,
ExTk
Newsradio88 reported an attempted subway pushing incident at W 4th St where some miscreant tried to push a woman by her hair onto the tracks. She held onto a support beam for dear life and screamed until some good samaritan came by and kicked the guy until he left. He moved onto Bway-Lafayette where he tried to push 3 others to the tracks. He was subsequently apprehended and arrested. This police activity probably led to the diversions in Brooklyn.
--Mark
Ummmm...beg to differ...
The original posting was made on Tuesday, May 23 and appeared to concern something that had happened about an hour before the posting. The incident referred to in the answer happened Monday, May 22. Unless, that is, the same thing happened again :-)
David
My bad - I didn't look at the date.
--Mark
I experienced the same thing. The D train that I was on would not go past DeKalb Avenue, so I got on a Q train that went express over the Broadway Line. They said there was a "sick passenger" at the Broadway-Lafayette Street station, but I don't know what the full story is, and I doubt I ever will, since very few people in the know seem to post here.
>>>but I don't know what the full story is, and I doubt I ever will, since very few people in the know seem to post here<<<
But, you post here
Peace,
ANDEE
Insults are becoming the norm on this board, just let it go over your head. At some point and juction we've all been insulted singly or as a group. Just take it with a grain of salt! We know our stuff and that's all we need to know!
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insult anyone here. It's just that I don't always get a full answer. For example, no one seems to know why the R train in one of my previous posts went along the 6th Avenue Line, or why the N train used to go along the Brighton Line so consistently like I mentioned earlier, even though I have noticed it happening for over a year.
You are all very knowledgeable about subways, and you know a lot more than I know. I just meant that I often don't hear questions answered satisfactorily about specific incidents, even though I know that many subway employees do post here.
Once again, my sincerest apologies.
Lyle
Apology accepted. You will find that most people here will try to answer you when and if they can.
Peace,
ANDEE
On any given day there are over 100 incidents reported. Some result in little or no delay to service. Others result in temporary service diversions while still others result in major service disruptions. Most are for totally uninteresting reasons. Where there is some real transit issue, it'll usually be posted here. To put it another way, some are not worth posting.
Also keep in mind that the chances of one of us who work here actually knowing about an given incident is kind of small. If we are not affected by it, we might not even know something happened. For example, I mostly work the 1/9 on the AM tour. Unless something happens on that line or the 2/3 between 96St and Chambers, I don't know about it and don't want to know about it.
Lyle,
You've got to realize that this board is primarily transit hobbyists. I'd say 90% or more of us do not work in the transit industry. Not all of those who are in the industry (specifically those who work for NYC Transit) have the ability to look up what might have caused a delay in service on your particular line on a particular day. The rest of us depend, like you, on station and train annoucements which we all know are pretty lax (if you didn't hear it, why do you think that some random person on this board might have been there as well and heard it? The odds are pretty low). And you never hear about things like that on the news unless it's serious like the recent push attempts, and even those reports aren't specific enough usually to correllate to a particular time, line, or station. As for first hand knowledge, of ALL the riders of the subway, and ALL the transit employees, and ALL the police officers out there, and ALL the EMT's that might be called to a sick/injured passenger scene, what are the odds that one of the people on the scene are SubTalk posters? Nil. Better than the odds of winning the lottery but still nil. So relax. You'll find that plenty of people "in the know" post here but in general are not so concerned with this sort of trivia. Everyone's late to work once in a while. Would you have REALLY felt better knowing why? Just go on with your day. Think of more important things.
-Dave
I guess I was tired and I wasn't thinking clearly. Sometimes I say things without thinking of the consequences. It's a bad habit that I really should get out of. Also, I often forget that when I communicate in writing, other people may read what I wrote in a different tone of voice that I intended. I hope there are no hard feelings.
Lyle
I have always wondered which trains carried the most passengers, and if the TA kept those figures. It stands to reason it would be some train traveling to Manhattan from one of the larger populated boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens. Of course, that only eliminates one suspect, the G, the only one that DOESN'T go to Manhattan. If someone can tell me the answer, if there is one, I'd be in your debt.
IRT Lex "looks" to be most populated
but I'd have to say the 1/9 for namesakes
1SouthFerry9
Can't be an IRT line then since the cars are smaller... unless I underestimated the capacity on those lines.
Number7Rider:
I would agree that the No.7 line is thoroughly travelled because I noticed that the few times I've ridden it in recent years it is often crowded.
BMTJeff
Thanks old buddy. You may not believe this but that was what I thought was the most used. I don't even remember riding that train when it wasn't filled to overflowing.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
You should keep in mind that the No. 7 IRT Flushing Corona line is also known as the "Orient Express" because of all of the Asians that ride it.
BMTJeff
..........to some of the subtalkers who called me racist etc........My question is calling the flushing # 7 line an
""ORIENT EXPRESS"" because of the Asians who ride it....!!! Well there is a wonderful Asian man who has an
wonderful subway page called """CHENS SUBWAY PAGE""" I do not think that fine man would appreciate
being called a racist ""orient express"" rider....!! ( but I am the racist on subtalk ??) >>>>>>.......!!!!!!!
Yes there are many oriental people riding the line, but there's still a significant number of people of other ethnicities riding along the line too.
Number7Rider:
I do agree with you that people of many other ethnicities do ride the No. 7 line but for quite some time asian stood out in my own experience. Please let other people no that I'm not being racist and that I do have respect for asians.
BMTJeff
I've been conversing with Jeff on the phone for months now. He is not only not a racist, but he has a strong feeling for people. His only problem is that he feels a need to let people know he's not one, which only plays into the racist Salaam's hands. Anytime that guy can put any one of us on the defensive he is glory heaven. With him you just have to attack head on and expose him for the racist ignoramous that he is.
...I would for some of you cowards out there first to apologize to my friend Mr. Chao-Hwa-Chen who has an excellent
subway page listed here as "CHENS NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY PAGE"" linked to this page also.........Mr Chen & I
who we have E mailed to each other how we have recieved absoultely racist-hate mail from some-"subtalkers""
who hide behind thier blocked e mail returns.....& you know who you are if this applies to you.......!!
the nerve of again I say SOME of you to label the # 7 line as a racist"" orient express"" etc........
How do you think my friend the fine Mr. Chao-Hwa-Chen feels about this & how would you feel if you were him??
And if there Asian subtalkers on this forum ( for those of you who false-ly accuse me of your bigotry ) ...........
How do you think the Aisan subtalkers see some of your hatred-bigoted terms as the "" orient express"" # 7 train ??
Finally again to those of the children who like to play in your sandboxes should note. Look at yourself in the
mirror first before throwing around and trageting someone else as a racist make sure this dosent fit you first..!!!
lets see now "" rail transit systems world-wide "".....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................................................
Who cares if it is the Orient Express. The great majorityof these people raise their children well, work hard and keep good homes. I personally don't care who I'm riding with, black, yellow, or any of the other non-whites, mixed groups, subdivisions of Caucasians etc. Once upon a time trains that had a lot of Italian passengers were called the garlic express (but they're not alone on garlic!) As long as a person carries his weight, respects others..why care?
.....i was responding to the false charges against me and shining a light to show how roaches scatter ....( example)......
..... especially to all of those who did falsely accuse me in the past of ......................racism etc..........................!!!!!
Look up the word Orient, Means East
....thank you ....
For one thing, the Orient Express never came anywhere NEAR China. It went from Paris to Istanbul.
Calling a train Orient Express because of a large population of East Asians is just a sign of ignorance.
Relax Pigs! My two friends, Brighton Beach Bob and BMT Jeff have given what they thought were statements as tothe state of affairs on the #7 line. No racism was intended and none was given. These are two class acts, so cool it. There is nothing to get worked up as far as this is concerned. If you want to get worked up, think about the possibility of having Hillary representing you in the Senate. That ought to give you nightmares.
Maybe is she looses, she will move to California, Arcadia sounds like a good place for her
.........arcadia california is republican right wing.......... now maybe the san francisco area & north california.....
los angeles rail system (salaamallah):
Excuse me salaamallam, I you think I'm racist you are dead wrong!!!! For many years the No. 7 line has been called the "Orient Express" because of the large number of people who are of Asian origin who ride the No.7 line. Yes their are many other ethnic groups who ride the No. 7 line but asian at least for a time have predomindated the ridership on that particular line. I also wish to tell you that I have plenty of respect for asian people.
BMT Jeff
There was a article in Tuesday Daily News about the diversified ethnic people on the 7 line. Very interesting. Arabs, latinos, Turks, East Asians, All on the 7 line
...........well thats what I was trying to say being a black man & american indian it just seemed like slaming the
# 7 line as the ""asian orient express"" seemed a litttle racy to me whoever said it ......!!
It reminds me of this ""JOHN ROCKER"" guy remember him ? slamming the number # 7 subway line as well ......!!!
Do you also have a problem with calling a certain section of Manhattan "Chinatown" or another section "Little Italy"? Neither reflect in a negative way on the inhabitants of those areas, just the ethnic concentration of the area.
Old Tom: I'' give you the same advice I gave my friend Jeff. Ignore Salaam. He doesn't buy or understand what you, Jeff or I am selling. He's convinced we're all racists. Just kiss him off and you'll be happier for it.
I was wondering if and when someone would mention John (off his) Rocker...:-)
You shouldn't bother with him.
I would find it insulting if someone considered likening something to a particular race to be revolting.
.........ignore that lst post before this one.........this person is still too young to vote ......( by his own admission )......
It's obvious you can't subtract.
Probably a symptom of being a racist.
Pigs: Cool it! You aren't going to get him to make sense. You're just spitting in the wind. IGNORE HIM. You know he's a racist, I know he's a racist, we all know he's a racist, and I'm sure even he suspects it. Just shine him on.
.........ignore that last post before this one.........this person is still too young to vote ......( by his own admission )......
Jeff: Why even waste your time talking to him? He doesn't hear you, doesn't understand you, and has his own agenda. Shine him on and you'll be doing yourself, myself and all the rest of us a big favor.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I must have really started something when I called the No. 7 IRT Corona Flushing line the "Orient Express". I must have gotten all the "racists" angry. I will not even have a hoot to do with Salaamallah anymore. He is the most disagreeable person that logs onto this website. I have two words for him. BUZZ OFF!!. He is politically incorrect. He should go to Coney Island and find out that the operator of the B&B Carousell is jewish and say something out of line he'll propbably have some explaning to do with the police. A message for Salaamallah. "Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.00."
Meabwhile I was at Coney Island yesterday and I rode the Cyclone twice and had a good time.
BMTJeff
..........all you proved is what a bigot you are mr ""buzz off""....why is your racism against asians ok in your book ??
maybe you can come out from behind your childish flamage and personal attacks and act like a real man??
or return to your sandbox where all children like yourself refuse to grow up & play.....!!!
There you have it BMT Jeff and if that doesn't prove to everyone that Salaam is a horse's -------, well nothing will.
....thank you for spelling my name right.....as for the """"horse """that was the symbol of my high school ( the mustang )
john muir high school pasadena california......during the summer i rode some R-1 thru R-9 in 1969 &1972 ..1975...
man.............. loved those R -1 thru R -9 s dont you ..???
Maybe we should all pitch in for Saalam to make a Haj Pilgramage next year. Maybe he will learn some respect for other people
Both size and frequency of trains has to be taken into account. If you're going by one single line, it might be the 7, becuase during AM and PM rush there are so many of those trains going through the Steinway Tunnel every hour it makes up for the smaller IRT width.
In terms of sheer numbers alone on one single track, I'll bet the 53rd Street tunnel carries the most riders, though they're split up between the E and F trains.
From one end of the line to the other, I would have to say the E train. Not only between Manhattan & Queens, but within Manhattan to/from Penn Station & WTC. And you have wide bodied (compared to the IRT) 600 foot trains on the E.
I say the M line without a doubt!
The M? Its half empty during the morning rush hour on 4th Ave!
Do the number of trains per hour on the E during rush come close to the number on the 7. I was figuring because it has to share trackage with the F between Kew Gardens and Fifth Ave., that would cut down on the total number of passengers either the E or F could handle alone. Plus, the 7 does have that 11th car (even if it's not air conditioned), which cuts down on the capacity difference a little between the 600-foot BMT/IND trains and their IRT 510-foot mainline counterparts.
This depends on how you measure things.
If you do it by letter and number, it would have to be the #7 because it's the only train on the line, with 20+ tph at rush hour, while the #4 only provides half the service on the Lex and the E only provides 40 percent of the service on the QB express.
If you measure by line, it would have to be the Lex or the QB Express.
My guess is the IND Queens Blvd Express lines (E/F) from Queens into Manhattan.
--Mark
Brian McGrory's Tuesday Boston Globe column
-- David
Chicago, IL
David, when will you be changing your destination sign to [C/Beacon Street] or some variant? I hope you can make our Seashore FieldTrip on July 15th.
By the way, I saw Type-8 3808 leading Type-7 3622 this morning at Park Street on that route. There are still five or fewer Type-8 cars in service.
Well unless otheroppurtunties present themselves I will be using transit every day to get my my summer class at the University of Pennsylvania. This means walking to PATCO and then transfering to the MFL at 8th. Wel my first trip went along w/o a hitch. I was dismayed by the fact that the SePTA traser rose to $1.80 (up $.20) so thanks to the DRPA my round trip now costs $5. I gotta hand it to the DRPA for encourageing ppl to use transit by raising prices.
Anyway i got my first trip on the new M-4's. They are really cool with the padded seats, automated anouncements and RaILFAN WINDOW. I noticed all the grade timers in the Schukyll river tunel. BTcan anyone tell me aboot how the home signals on the MFL work?
Those "grade timers" have been there since the Market subway was extended to 49th Street in the 1950's. They are also on the Subway-Surface (streetcar) tracks. The grades in the under river portion approach 5%, so it is imperative to keep speed on the downgrade to controllable limits. Both the MFSE and streetcar subway time signals (the REAL name on PTC/SEPTA) go to clear 3 signals from the bottom of the grades. At least on the streetcar side, the signals go yellow as the car's corner post hits it. If you keep the speed at that level, the signals go yellow until the third signal from the bottom. Hit that one at the right speed, it goes yellow, to green and the last two signals clear also, so you can power up the grade into the next stop. The westbound MFSE runs non-stop from 15th to 30th, the streetcar subway has stops at 19th and 22nd, then 30th.
Nobody in Philadelphia (motormen, operators or railfans have ever made any comments about the time signals. Considering the grade, which is severe enough that the rear markers on a PCC or LRV preceeding yours will dissappear from view if there is enough spacing between cars at 30th inbound or 22nd outbound, there was good reason for them.
Broad Street has an annoying Speed-timed signal on the southbound express track south of Hunting Park, and a couple on both express tracks south of Olney. I have yet to figure out their purpose.
As for signals timed to a schedule, there a whole bunch on both Broad Street and Market Frankford. They go by signal/T instead of signal/S, for speed timed signals.
In the last days of PCC operation in the subway, some of the older air cars would struggle up the grade in the river tunnel. I managed to catch one on one trip that stalled on the upgrade and had to be nudged up into 22nd St station by one of those newfangled Kawasakis.
The time signals don't bother me as much as the SEPTA requirement that trolleys must stop at every facing point turnout. This can create a real bottleneck in the subway where the Route 10 diverges. There are also a couple of time signals on the westbound approach to the junction as well as on the curve past the junction (into the subway segment beneath 36th St). There are also a couple on the curve from the 36th St segment into the section beneath the former Woodland Ave.
As to the stop before facing point switches (as was (and is at BSM) a Baltimore reqirement) it was instituted when the electronic switch control equipemt was installed (I forget the name). The switches automatically change to the proper route according to the setting on the operator's console. The switches change so fast that it is possible to miss the operation as it happens so fast. SEPTA instituted the rule to prevent switch accidents, and it seems to work.
Enjoy your commute! I used to drive to Camden and take the pre-PATCO bridge train to the MFL at 8th and Market, then to 34th St. One evening I left U of P later than usual and three young (about 12) taggers (led by "Popcorn") were spraying the station. Popcorn asked me my name and suddenly "Bob" was on the platform and on the wall on the other side of the westbound track. Fellow student Mike (from Philly, now North Jersey; an avid trolley fan) photographed my name for me.
Bob
I forgot to mention that when I borded the PATCO train at haddonfield there was an NJT train in "the Trench" heading back to Philly via the Delair Bridge. Well it passed us as we were stopped in the station, but the PATCO train caught it and passed it wint in 300 yards from a dead stop.
[there was an NJT train in "the Trench" heading back to Philly via the Delair Bridge. Well it passed us as we were stopped in the station, but the PATCO train caught it and passed it within 300 yards from a dead stop.]
NJT has a serious speed restriction in Haddonfield because the owners of older homes that stood firm with PRR K4's, RDG Pacifics and 8 to 12 heavyweight coaches for many years were afraid GP40PH-2's and 3 to 6 lightweight coaches would shake their foundations, and PATCO still does 60 or 65 mph.
NJT's speed restriction in Haddonfield is probably due to the fact that the people with the fears are not the residents that lived there in the halycon days of steam. They moved there thinking "those tracks won't get used any more" and then found out differently. Remember, there was a break in passenger service in the 1970's and 80's, and freight traffic dwindled down to almost nothing.
I thought the speed restriction in the Haddonfield cut was more due to the limited clearances in the cut itself, especially in the 'walled' section through the PATCO Haddonfield station area. I believe the speed limit is 30 from the curve west of Haddon Ave to almost Woodcrest.
And speaking of Woodcrest, some of you may recall that PATCO used the 'freight' track for some time (westbound trains) while the Woodcrest station was under construction. It was a real shock to have a PATCO train gingerly picking across jointed rail after riding other portions of the line at 75 mph on welded, smooth tracks.
The speed restriction in Haddonfield was mainly the result of complaints from residents in the condos at Haddon Avenue, which were, in fact, built during the train service hiatus.
Bob
[The speed restriction in Haddonfield was mainly the result of complaints from residents in the condos at Haddon Avenue, which were, in fact, built during the train service hiatus.]
But the reason given by those opposed to the "Gamblers' Express" was that the trains would weaken the foundations of the historic houses of Haddonfield.
Pennsauken was also a hotbed of opposition. Rumor had it that many of the chartered bus companies were based in Pennsauken and were controlled by organized crime. The stated reason for opposition in Pennsauken was that their kids were too stupid to learn to stay off the track.
Bob
Well just before the trains enter the cut going west there is a speed limit sign for 30 mph. Apparently it is faster outside of the cut. You can hear the Geeps reving up or down as they make the transition.
I haven't really paid attention, but I think eastbound trains accelerate after they leave Haddonfield (around the Little League field, before PATCO's Woodcrest station) before decelerating for the Lindenwold stop.
Bob
I just saw one today. As soon as an eastbound passes the Haddonfield station he guns it and the train starts to pick up speed by the time it reaches the end of the trench.
Even at the higher prices, PATCO is still a bargain in this area. Take it from a rider of SEPTA ($1.60 a pop each way, although tokens bring it down to $1.15). The $1.80 SEPTA round-trip ticket you can buy at the NJ stations is a good deal.
And, of course, to get to more places at good ol' U of P (where I spent part of my misspent youth), the subway-surface is often better than the El.
Yeah, I plan to start switching at 30th St. and taking the SS to 38th. However if I want to stop by the bookstore or buy stuff from vendors I'll just walk to 34th. BTW do the SS operators accept the transfers for the ride back?
I believe every SEPTA route accepts the "return" PATCO ticket for the ride back to Center City. The PATCO ticket restriction on the first part, i.e., you have to use the first part on a Center City line. There is supposedly some long list of the valid ones. Going home at night, I'd take a subway surface car to 15 St. and then walk to 15-16 and Locust for the PATCO line, which is a nice walk on summer evenings. Also the MFSE only runs about every 10-12 minutes in the evening, while the trolleys are still running one every 3-4 minutes.
Also the Subway-surface stops at Penn are 37 St. (and Spruce) or 36 (and Sansom). And don't take the #10, it goes north on 36 St. then west on Lancaster Avenue and does not stop at either station on the Penn campus.
I have used PATCO return transfers on SS lines.
Bob
An L train with a Z sign.
A misplaced Corona Redbird.
Another picture of R29 #8689. (That 5 sign looks gray to me!)
Locomotive #064
All available at TRANSIT PICTURES 8.
Directions:
• Click here.
• Once you get to the main page, take the Express Train to Transfer Point.
• Take the Court Street Shuttle to Transit Pictures 8.
I have no pictures in this to whet your desire to see what these things look like.
There has been much discussion about public toilets on this page, oriented on those in the subway, and in particular if they could be free or would require a charge.
The City seems to have made an attempt to provide public toilets at Prospect Park. There are Port-O'-John's at nearly every playground. The other day I took a walk around the park and, having once again started the day with two huge mugs of coffee, I had to go.
The first Port-O'-John I went to had paper towels and toilet paper clogging both the urinal and the bowl, each of which was filled with unrine and feces respectively. More of same was on the floors. The entire thing stank.
The same was true of all other Port-O'John's in that group, and all other groups all around the park. Every single Port-O-John was filthy, unusable, and would be a horror to clean.
The reality is that the volume of waste in the city, coupled with the selfish behavior of the few, creates a disgusting mess very quickly if public toilets are not cleaned and maintained constantly. And it is a lousy job, and people in unions (ie. civil servants) are not about to put that much effort into such a job.
The cost of "free" toilets in New York is enormous, and would have to come from somewhere. Paid toilets not only have a revenue stream but, if they are attended, are cheaper in the long run because the conditions observed in Prospect Park do not develop in the first place, and thus do not have to be cleaned up.
Obviously, the city spent considerable money on those "free" toilets around the park. I invite you to take a look (and a whiff) at what your money bought.
[The City seems to have made an attempt to provide public toilets at Prospect Park ... The first Port-O'-John I went to had paper towels and toilet paper clogging both the urinal and the bowl, each of which was filled with unrine and feces respectively. More of same was on the floors. The entire thing stank.]
As someone who's seen and smelled the restrooms on LIRR trains, I understand what you mean.
[Paid toilets not only have a revenue stream]
And a stream of a different type.
[I invite you to take a look (and a whiff) at what your money bought.]
I'll take a rain check on that offer.
Sad, yes. But Port-O-Johns get filthy because they are not connected to the sewer lines, they are basically old-fashioned outhouses. How about building tiny bathrooms the same size as those (so there's no room to "hang out" in) but with working flush toilets? Very little maintenance should be required.
Such exist--more commonly in Europe--a Belgian(/) outfit has installed some in San rancisco mainly adjacent numerous BART stations(ALL of which BTW have toilets(mostly inside fare control). The sidewalk facilities are self cleaning after each use. As part of the revenue deal the toilet vendor got rights to sidewalk advertising kiosks in the CBD.
(Such exist--more commonly in Europe--a Belgian(/) outfit has installed some in San Francisco mainly adjacent numerous BART stations(ALL of which BTW have toilets(mostly inside fare control). The sidewalk facilities are self cleaning after each use. As part of the revenue deal the toilet vendor got rights to sidewalk advertising
kiosks in the CBD).
New York City went through a three year bid process to award a contract to install such facilities, with a quarter to use the facility and advertizing to cover the cost of installation and maintenance. Two of the Mayor's biggest campaign contributors made bids, one of which (TDI) has controlled all transit advertizing in New York for years. At the last minute, the Mayor cancelled the bids and decided to start the process over. This was in 1997, and the process has yet to start, and probably never will. The architect who led the bid review for City Planning got fed up and went back to Australia.
At this time, the City Council Speaker seems tired of waiting, and wants something done. Hence, the disgusting Port-O-Johns.
Larry: Bob did you hit a raw nerve. While getting off my Sea Beach during my first day in New York last summer, I had to use the restroom at Stillwell Avenue. Yuk, what a disgrace. There was water all over the floor, at least I hope it was water. The smell in there could have killed a cow, and there was no paper in the stalls. Fortunately, I didn't need paper for what I did, but I asked someone if the restroom here was always like this. He gave me a smart alecky remark that this was an improvement over what it usually was. After I left, I wondered if he wasn't telling the truth. Such a condition, especially in a heralded station like Stillwell, is a disgrace.
But you forget what the neighborhood around the station is like and that's why the bathroom there is a hell-hole.
No surprise to me.
Doug aka BMTman
The Loo at Stillwell Avenue
Last time I was there, March 13 2000, it was relatively clean (what do you expect for a John), didn't smell of doo-doo and there was no water on the floor.
wayne
Lucky you Wayne. Maybe it will be that way when I get there in August but I wouldn't bet the garage on it.
although i found larry's description of the port-a-john situation in prospect park to be a little too graphic, i did find the subject of the availability of restroom facilities in the city to be of deep personal interest... due to some difficult early socialization, i find it embarrassing to have to use a public bathroom... about 2 weeks ago i was riding in a subway car in which all the advertising was from the manufacturer of a well known adult diaper... one of the cards intrigued me... it suggested that even middle aged people who have no problems with incontinence, might enjoy the freedom of wearing an adult diaper... i'm sure we have all the experience of having to go, but being in a situation where there were no restroom facilities... getting stuck on a subway train for a couple of hours, getting trapped in an elevator, or being on an escalator which suddenly lost power would put me in a frightening position ... however, if i were wearing an adult diaper, i could rest secure, knowing that i had made provisions in the event of an emergency... although not the ideal solution, perhaps the adult diaper will be a temporary fix, until such time that being a unionized washroom attendant gets the respect and professional regard from the general public...
Heypaul, in my youth -- in rare in cases of personal emergency -- I would head for the nearest tunnel and do it there. Nowadays, you just have to hold it in and plan for someplace to go like a bar or a restuarant.
Doug aka BMTman
As I mentioned in a prior posting on the Mineola, it was equipped with a bathroom. NYCT should require that future orders of subway equipment include a toilet and sink.
This would pose as an interesting addition to heypaul's R-9 cab. He could have a genuine subway car bathroom installed in his apartment, allowing him the opportunity to feel like a railfan while on the 'throne'.
Can you say 'Flushing' Line?
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
Old subay cars should be convered into mobile homes. It would be called Transit Village and people will live in the cars. Sections could be partioned and windows darkened to make rooms. The bathroom idea would fit in well. That would be interesting.
-Daniel
Back around 1982 the last of the mechanical refrigerator cars were being retired from service by FGE and its allied companies. Rather than being scrapped, many of these well-insulated box cars, 57' 1" in length (exterior dimension) were made available for sale to whoever wanted them, CHEAP! One large group of these cars was stored in an otherwise-disused SCL yard on the outskirts of Atlanta. A community-based organization purchased a large number of these cars and also purchased a large tract of land adjacent to (or nearby? I don't remember for certain) the yard and proceeded to take groups of three cars, place them (sans trucks) on a concrete foundation, connect them door-to-door, add windows and conventional residential exterior doors, and build a residential interior. They were then sold to low-income families in the same fashion as Habitat does today with their houses. An entire subdivision (over 100 homes) was built from these cars and I'm told they are holding up quite well. The amount of insulation in the walls makes for a highly energy-efficient home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And then there's the man in Oregon who bought a 727 airliner to use as his house. As with the FGE refrigerated cars, the airliner's excellent insulation makes it extremely energy-efficient regardless of the weather.
What was even more interesting is that the Oregon man lived about 15 miles from the nearest airport. He had to have the plane partially disassembled and hauled to his homesite on flatbeds. It cost a fortune, but it sure makes for an interesting conversation piece.
I had planned to purchase two of the FGE reefers myself to use as storage on my property in North Carolina, which is just over a mile from a grade crossing (before the line was removed in 1982 - indeed, the only train I ever saw on the branch was the scrap train). Even though I was in an area zoned Agricultural and Residential, the county commissioners turned me down. A used shipping container would have been okay, though, or so I was told. I'm sure if I had been one of the "good ol' boys" it would have been another story, but we were new to that area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If they had the same type of toilets as the pre-Environmental Protection Agency rolling stock on the LIRR and other railroads -- where the waste was simply dropped out of the bottom of the train -- it would definitely cut down on vehicular and pedestrian traffic beneath the city's elevated lines :)
It sounded like a real 'crappy' idea.
:-)
You just couldn't resist could you....
Rim shot!!
And on our sports talk show on KOA in Denver, they'd cue up an "Eewww!!" by the show's female personality.
Rim shot!!! That's what the Mets have done many times over the years.
True story: during our jaunt to the Museum of Natural History on May 7, 1967 on an AA, my father glanced at one of the motorman's cabs on the R-1/9 we were on and wondered out loud if that wasn't a john. I said I didn't think so. Since we were conversing in Lithuanian, no one else in the car could understand us.
"i'm sure we have all the experience of having to go, but being in a situation where there were no restroom facilities... getting stuck on a subway train for a couple of hours, getting trapped in an elevator, or being on an escalator which suddenly lost power would put me in a frightening position ..."
I once saw a guy standing in the middle of a stuck escalator for about an hour. I asked what he was doing there. He said he was on it when it suddenly broke down and he was stuck between floors. I asked him "why don't you just walk down?" He replied, "cause its an UP escalator!!!
sarge... are you serious about that one, or are you just making a joke in the middle of a serious discussion?... i threw that escalator image in for laughs... you have to be kidding... why didn't the guy just walk up to safety?... i guess he could have been a child of the 50's, when there were up and down staircases in school that were not to be violated...
i must admit to something i witnessed at ps 254 when i was a student there... i was going up the up staircase keeping to the right, when a group of teachers came down that staircase... the passed me without saying a word... that was when my sense of right and wrong was shattered, and i lost my respect for authority...
It was still like that in Elementary and Middle Schools at least as far as 1996, the last time I was in Middle School. In High School, the up and down was enforced by having the stairs move, when they weren't broken.
Are you saying that your high school had escalators? WOW!!!
It has 10 floors!
I like the idea of the Elevateds, one would be abke to detect the more efluent neighborhoods. The rate of tunnel graffitie might good down.
avid
The 25 cent pay toilets in City hall before it was destroyed had water jets that shot across the floor and had a toilet that automatically flushed when the door closed. Are there any more of those?
-Daniel
(The 25 cent pay toilets in City hall before it was destroyed had water jets that shot across the floor and had a toilet that automatically flushed when the door closed. Are there any more of those?)
Several companies submitted bids (which cost millions of dollars to prepare) to install such toilets throughout the city. I reviewed the finances of the bids at DCP. Before a bid could be awarded, the Mayor cancelled the process, saying he wanted to start over and award bids to different contractors in different places to promote "diversity." That was in 1997.
Speaking of s__t, Sheldon Silver survived as Speaker of the NYS Assembly, with the help of the Nassau County Republicans, a group of like-minded individuals. My Assemblymember came out against Silver, so perhaps he isn't that bad afterall.
Expect the health care industry, which lobbied on his behalf, to be even more richly rewarded. Don't expect more than "studies" of transportation improvements, or a fair share of funding to (and accountability for) NYC schools, anytime soon.
Bragmam oughta jump over to the Republicans along with a couple dozen others and give all three houses of state government to the reps.
TAMMANY HALL POUR TOUJOURS
(Bragmam oughta jump over to the Republicans along with a couple dozen others and give all three houses of state government to the reps).
Sure. NYC's share of school aid would be cut to 20 percent with 37 percent of the kids, and all the money would be passed out to friends of the Republicans. You'd never see a dime.
I think we need a third party.
There are already 5 or 6.
I am currently making all the NYC Subway Markers in all the colors. I need a complete list of HIDDEN MARKERS, which are extra letters or numbers. I need to know the color of those makers makkred with a question mark (?).
IRT Division Lines
(1) Red
(2) Red
(3) Red
(4) Green
(5) Green
(6) Green
(7) Purple
(8) Green (?)
(9) Red
(10)Green
(11)Purple
(12)Red (?)
(13)Red (?)
IND-BMT Division Lines
(A) Blue
(B) Orange
(C) Blue
(D) Orange
(E) Blue
(F) Orange
(G) Light-Green
(H) Blue (?)
(I) (?)
(J) Brown
(K) Blue (?)
(L) Grey
(M) Brown
(N) Yellow
(O) (?)
(P) (?)
(Q) Orange/ Yellow
(R) Yellow
(S) Grey
(T) (?)
(U) (?)
(V) Orange
(W) Yellow (?)
(X) (?)
(Y) (?)
(Z) Brown
James Li
I believe IRT is right, there may be a 14 or 15, not sure what colors.
The R110B has an orange "A" sign, there are also some JFK signs still floating around.
The 8 is green, the 12 is green, the 13 is red.
The H and K are both blue.
There are no signs on any equipment for the I or the O.
The P, T, U, X, and Y show up as white circles on the R-32 and R-38 only.
The W is a yellow diamond.
Hope this helps,
Billy
Those who went to Stillwell can confirm
the W being in a yellow triangle..
#9306
I saw an "O" one time: it was in R32 #3918 which was back then running around on the "Q" line. Either the flip dots in the tail of the "Q" were out, it was actually set to "O", or the glass was SO ABSOLUTELY FILTHY that you couldn't see the tail of the "Q".
This was one of those idiotic bulkhead signs they have on the R32. A plague and a pox on all of 'em!
Wayne
The R32 signs are controlled by a dial (That's right!) that has all 26 letters, numbers 0 through 9, space, and test. The R38 has a control console similar to what older RTS's have, and they only display a single character. I remember an old episode of Rescue 911 in which there is a dramatization of a man being pushed onto the subway tracks in front of a #1 train. As I saw the train pass by, I saw a silver train like the R32's with that cycloptic sign with a "1" in it. I noticed the car number beginning with a 4, in the typical IND font, and looked in my August 1993 Passenger Train Journal, which had an article on the New York Subway (I still have it, NOT FOR SALE!) In that article, there was a roster of subway cars. I looked for a car class whose car numbers had a range covering the 4000's and 4100's (I think the number of one of the cars on that train was 41-something). I looked at the roster, and saw the car class, R38.
Should the subject line be "Subway map trunk line colors". Markers meant marker lights.
To complement the others: B and D have yellow variations, R has a brown diamond version, and there are also a few brown round Rs. I think there is also an orange, marroon, or brown N floating around (I remember white letter in dark colored circle.) There is a yellow R with white letter floating around as well, have only seen it in conductor's position.
Don't forget about the yellow diamond N. I'm sure they're on the R-32s. They might be on the R-68s.
Right. Funny, I've only seen it once on an R32, as well as the yellow diamond < B >, yet always see it on the R68 (when changing from D to N they probably saw N and stopped, like when travelling from E to R and stopping at . Sometimes, the inside is right but the outside is an upside down something else, though that's probably because a flipped N is identical to a regular one on the inside.
Right. Funny, I've only seen it once on an R32, as well as the yellow diamond < B >, yet always see it on the R68 (when changing from D to N they probably saw N and stopped, like when travelling from E to R and stopping at < R >. Sometimes, the inside is right but the outside is an upside down something else, though that's probably because a flipped N is identical to a regular one on the inside.
The list:
A Division Lines
Red (1) (2) (3) (9) (13)
Green (4) (5) (6) (8) (10) (12)
Purple (7) (11)
Dark Gray/Black* (S)
B Division Lines
Blue (A) (C) (E) (H) (K)
Orange (B) (D) (F) (Q) (S) (V)
Light Green (G)
Brown (J) (M) <R> (Z)
Gray (L)
Yellow (B) (D) (N) (Q) (R) (S) <W>
Dark Gray/Black* (S)
White? (P) (T) (U) (X) (Y)
? (I) (O)
*appears black on maps.
Is there a yellow "T" anywhere, just in case they ever wish to revive the Broadway-West End Express?
Bob Sklar
Afterschool today I had to get to 50th and 6th. I took an R46 R train from court to DeKalb where I waited for anything but an R68/R68a so I could have a railfan window. I got an R40M Q train. We went over the Manny B very, very slowly I was looking through the railfan window the whole time. Finally we arrived at Grand, then Bway-Lafayette. We then waited 10 mins at Bway-Lafayette. The conductor told us there was a train (It was a Q as well) with Brakes in Emergency in front of us. I then went out and got the reluctant motorman to open his window. He said they didn't know what was wrong with the train in front. BIE was just an excuse. Finally after we made fun of the fine souls over at the command center they rerouted us to B2 (local track). We stopped at west fourth and ran express honking the horn to 34th on the local track. After 34th we transferred back to B4 (express track). I got out at 47th-50th. This is where the real story starts.
About 1 hour later I boarded a downtown D train of R68's at Rock Center. 42nd and 34th were uneventful but it took 25 minutes to get from 34th to West 4th where I tranferred for an A. I was in the 7th car during all of this so I have no idea why this occured. Does anyone have any clues or ideas???
-Harry
It was a sick customer at Grand Street.
This happened after school? I had a very similar experience at about 9:30 in the morning! The train was still stuck in the afternoon? I heard that someone was pushing people onto the tracks. Maybe that had something to do with it.
By the way, you got an R40M Q train? I haven't seen one of those since the big Williamsburg Bridge closing! Now all I see are regular slanty R40 trains on the Q line.
It definetly wasn't a slant R40, I would be estatic if it was... It was something like car 45xx I'm pretty sure it was an R40M
-Harry
It was probably an R40M - but it could have been an R42: their numbers begin at 4550. They sent an additional 28 Slant R40 to the Eastern division recently; so they COULD have gotten a train of R40M in exchange.
Wayne
Except they didn't. No R-40Ms are assigned to Coney Island. They're all in the Eastern Division.
David
That's what I thought.
Wayne
Anyone have any thoughts why did city decide to build 6th Ave subway before the 2nd Ave one. If that would have been the case what would the system look like today. Also I highly doubt anyone would be demanding "long promised 6th Ave subway."
Arti
I strongly suspect that the choice of the 6th Avenue line as a priority reflects the strong demand for transit that once existed in west midtown to serve the once-huge garment industry, and perhaps the docks further west as well. The emergence of east midtown of a major corporate business area, and the heavy residential development of the east side, all post-date the conception of the IND 1st system which dates to the 1920's.
At the same time it was technically more difficult (H & M tubes.)
Arti
To replace the 6th Ave. el. The IND was originally intended to compete with and eventually drive the "private" interests out of transit.
Bill
2nd Ave el would have been easyer. But really let fanatazise:-)
Arti
Perhaps the 6th Ave El drew more patronage than the 2nd Ave El.
--Mark
Again 2nd Ave (or 3rd Ave) subvay could have captured both 2/3 els.
Also running parallel to Lex could have been a competition to IRT (Concourse then 2nd to Wall st area)
Arti
Indeed it did. 3rd and 6th were both a lot busier than 2nd or 9th.
You have to remember that the section of the east side east of Third Ave. and below the Queensboro Bridge was pretty crappy until after World War II, with the gaslight district between Houston and 23rd St. (think little versions of those big gas tanks next to the LIE in Maspeth, and some not-very deesirable housing), and the stockyards where the United Nations is now located.
Sixth Ave., meanwhile, was already undergoing some development in the early 1930s, with the creation of Rockefeller Center and Radio City, so a line into that area would be more desirable, while removing the Sixth Ave. el from in front of Radio City would make it more desirable. And the Rockefeller did have a wee bit of influence on New York politics, even when people were ticked off at capitalism in the earyl 30s.
There was IRT 7th Ave, BMT on Bway and IND on 8th. On the same token why G?
Arti
The G was to replace the Myrtle Avenue and Lexington Avenue (Brooklyn) Lines, which it has. Also if the system really ran the way it was planned, all IND Brooklyn and Queens express trains would go into Manhattan, all locals would be short trains feeding into these expresses. Look at the Crosstown line at both ends, both Smith St. and Queens Blvd. Only the expresses go into Manhattan. Look at the track map at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The Fulton St. local track goes right into a dead end at Court St, only the express tracks go to Jay St. On paper, it looked so good...
[The G was to replace the Myrtle Avenue and Lexington Avenue ]
Interesting that they saw G as a higher priority than 2nd Ave.
[all locals would be short trains feeding into these expresses.]
Was original Church Avenue - Manhattan train an express, G being the local?
Arti
As far as I know, the "GG" was not extended to Brooklyn until 1937. The "A" train originally served the Jay St. to Church Ave. segment until the opening of the Fulton St. subway in 1937. The "A" was replaced by the "E" train until 1940 (?), when the upper 6th Ave. subway opened; at that point, the "D" train provided service from Jay St. to Church Ave. Except for GO-type operations, the "GG" (and later, the "G") never provided service south of Smith-9th Sts., except from (approximately) 1969-1975, and then during rush-hours only. During that time, there was some "F" express service during rush hours. (I don't know of any other regularly-scheduled express service on the line.) As I live at one of those local stations, I can assure you that the service provided by the "GG" during that time was definitely inadequate, and it was a nuisance having to change trains to reach Manhattan.
By the way, does anyone know if the Bergen St. junction was intentionally designed the way it is currently? It seems to go somewhat against the "flying junction" design of the independant system. Or was the crosstown connection somewhat of an afterthought? I know that the Jay St. express tracks once connected to the tracks heading toward Bergen St. (the tunnel cut-outs are still in place), but were the 2 S-curves always required, even before the 1937 crosstown connection was in place?
Pretty close on the changes of service along that line. But if my memory serves me right the F train took the E's place on the Smith St to Church Ave. route. The D train didn't assume that service uintil it was thru routed to Coney Island in Oct 54 (approx) over the Culver Line, not its present routing. Before then the D terminated at Hudson Terminal, or Chgambers St. as the signs said then. When the D was routed over the Brighton in late 67 the F took the Culver so once again served Church Ave, in this dicussion. Funny all the years I was a motorman I never noiticed any "cutouts' for prospective routes. But I do remember highballing right into Bergen from Jay, when the F ran express to Church; the GG cvame in on straight iron too so I interpret the plan was originally for the Crosstown to be a thru local and the service from Manhattan to be express, so no thought at the time about the l0 MPH turnouts from Manhattan trackage to the local track at Bergen. Hence one of the rare l0 MPH movements on an IND route.
Some of my information was gathered from the maps published in the "Historical Maps" section of this site. A 1948 map lists the "D" train's southern terminus at Church Ave (a bit before the 1954 extension to the Culver line); the "E" train terminating at Broadway-Lafayette St.; the "F" train terminating at Hudson Terminal (Chambers St.). Of course, some interim maps would be of great help in resolving questions such as these. The next earlier map is from 1939, which shows the "E" train in this service.
BTW (Webmaster) ... Is there anyone out there (such as a TA worker/fan) who has access to historical information regarding train routings and dates the routings changed? This would make a great addition to the historical information area on this site!
Thanks for the enlightenment. I can remember riding the D train with my mom (late 40's early 50's as a child and seeing Chambers St. as the terminal. Guess I jumped the gun and assumed there had been no other changes...). Keep up the good work
Back in those days, the switches south of W. 4th St. got a good workout. One of these days, I'm going to have to take a C or E into or out of W. 4th and see if I can get a glimpse of those switches.
That dead end at Court St. was supposed to continue to Manhattan via tunnel and feed the 2nd Ave. line.
Can someone jog my memory a bit? I remember the opening of the express track 'tween W4th and 34th. All the pre-Christy ST stuff.
But were the express tunnels always there, just void of tracks? I can't remember that.
Joe C
No, they were dug during the 60s, I recall an exit tower on w8th street, I think, the rock rubble was removed there.
That tunnel had the first welded rail inthe city, the rails were welded by two then a joint, smoother and quiiter then the 39ft rails. Now the sections go in 400ft stretches, except for signal blocks.
avid
So by this, that means the two express tracks at W4TH station were not there either? The roadbed was empty and ended at a solid wall at the north end. Funny, I just can't recall that.
Joe C
Not so , the express tracks were there but dead ended looking north of W4th. Express service had to use the local tracks north of W4th st.Perhaps an old timer could shed so light here.
avid
I would imagine the tracks went through the station. North of W. 4th St., there were switches which essentially merged the "express" tracks with the local tracks. I don't know if the scissor switches which are there now were always there or not. If so, then the express tracks would have deadended just beyond that point.
I encountered W. 4th St. twice before Chrystie St., once going through on a Coney Island-bound D train on April 30, 1967 and once on Sept. 23 of that same year, when we waited for an A train on the lower level. OK, so we were confused. As we saw one D train after another go by, they all ran on the outside tracks, which have always led to the Rutgers St. tunnel (D trains were still using the Culver line then).
For the first 30 years or so of their existance, the express tracks between West Fourth and Houston-Second Ave. were only slightly more useful than the express tracks at Canal Street on the Nassau Loop are now. They were only used for turn-arounds at Second Ave. and/or Broadway-Lafayette until the 1967/68 completion of the Chrystie Street connection and the express tracks between West Fourth and 34th St.
Of course, the express tracks at Second Ave. are still pretty useless today, except for storage. But when they build the Houston St. tunnel to Brooklyn and that South Fourth Street connection, watch out :)
When I was commuting to High School in Brooklyn from Queens, to avoid the long waits for the then "GG", I took the "A" and transferred to the "F" at W4th ST. The "F" at that time (prior to Chrystie St) terminated at Bway-Lafayette, and all trains on 6th Ave stopped at 14th and 23rd Sts. The "F" used a crossover to access the express track when entering W4th St. Southbound, then proceeded to Bway-Lafayette, crossing over and terminating at the northbound express platform. Returning northbound, it stopped at W4th St express platform then used a crossover to access the local (actually at that time the ONLY) tracks for the rest of the journey. There were not tracks in the express tunnels (between W4th St and just south of 34th St. prior to the construction. On Sundays, the "F" terminated at 34th and 6th Ave, again at the northbound express platform. Of course at that time the only other train on the line was the "D", so delays weren't a problem due to the switching between 34th and 42nd Sts.
I so seem to remember that the "express tracks" on 6th Ave opened PRIOR to the Chrystie St revamp of the system, with the "D" running express, and the "F" local, so when they built the tunnel the crossover was replaced with a scissors switch.
If at this time the F terminated at B'way/Lafayette, then why were there any local tracks at all, and did they continue to 2nd ave at this time?
As my memory serves me 2nd Ave-Houston was reached from B-1 track, the local track. For a brief period in late summer or early autumn l966 when I was a conductor in Queens the F terminated at 2nd Ave. I believe to make traction connections at Broadway-Lafayette [ but then the Chrystie connection didn't open for another year]. So the F ran on the local track to Bway/Laff and then into the middle tracks.. don't remember which at 2nd Ave. In other words it shared the same track with the D south of West 4th.
I thought it was the other way around: F trains terminated at 2nd Ave. up until sometime in 1966. When work began on the final connection to Chrystie St., F trains began terminating at Broadway-Lafayette. The R-1/9 destination curtains had signs for both of those stations.
May have been a time that they did but in my conductor years Mid 65-mid 67 the F terminated at B'way-Laff. we had a supplement schedule briefly to run to 2nd Ave. I've learned I've been wrong on other matters because service changes were frequent even then.
As far as I know the F terminated at Bway Lafayette even as early as 1963 and probably since 1954. 2nd was sometimes used as a terminal, but really only rarely. It terminated at 34 St. on Saturdays and Sundays.
The 6th Avenue Express tracks only began being used when the Chrystie St. connection opened. In fact, they were used only during rush hours, because the B only ran to W. 4 St. and turned around in the express track area during non-rush hours (the 57 St.-6th Avenue station was not open yet). Once 57 St. opened, the B and D ran express all the time because the B could run to 57 non-rush, and the new KK train to/from the Williamsburg Bridge would run there rush hours.
Let me ask you this: did the R-1/9s have drum switches in the cabs for zoning purposes? For a long time, I thought the exterior key switch above the storm door was used to sectionalize a train's doors, but found out it actually served as a light switch of some sort. IIRC, there was no door key as such when using the trigger boxes.
The 6th Ave. express tracks opened along with the initial phase of Chrystie St., in November of 1967. However, because the new 57th St. station wasn't quite ready yet, they were used only during rush hours by B and D trains. During non-rush hours, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. On July 1, 1968, the 57th St. station opened for business, and was served by KK trains during rush hours and B trains at all other times. D trains began operating express along 6th Ave. at all times, while B trains did so only during rush hours. I still have my pamphlet describing the second (July 1) and third phases (August 18) of service changes.
The Fulton St. local track goes right into a dead end at Court St, only the express tracks go to Jay St.
Well, it wasn't intended for long .... had the Second System been built ....
--Mark
As another poster has stated "to compete with the 6th Ave el [also the 8th Ave line to compete with 9th Ave. el, Fulton st-Brooklyn ditto ..The A line vs. the BMT Fulton el.]" Just like the Concourse subway--the Jersome el was also served by 6th & 9th Ave. trains, so the Concourse subway (C train, later D) ran full length competition, and indeed the IND was planned to replace the els. Third Ave. was kept "until the 2nd Ave subway repalced it" asthe 2nd ave. el had been razed too. Haha I've lived nearly a lifetime and the Lex is still holding down the east side by itself. I still haven't straight out answered your question though? Maybe with 2 els on the east side they didn't see immeidate need; but the west side IND indeed wiped out those els.
The original plan for the IND 6th Ave subway was to use the Hudson & Manhattan tubes as the local and build two express track. In essence, part of the infrastructure was already there, and the opening of the line would have been "quick". Upon further examination, it was deemed too expensive to retrofit the H&M tunnels to IND clearances, and the first phase of the line was to build the local tracks only. When construction of the line began, the City fought cery hard to get the 6th Ave EL condemned, so it wouldn't have to be shored up to construct the subway beneath, saving time and money (it simply would have ben demolished). The City was not successful until December 1938, when the El was closed.
The 6th Ave express tracks between 34th & W 4th run under the H&M (today's PATH).
--Mark
The original plan for the IND 6th Ave subway was to use the Hudson & Manhattan tubes as the local and build two express track. In essence, part of the infrastructure was already there, and the opening of the line would have been "quick". Upon further examination, it was deemed too expensive to retrofit the H&M tunnels to IND clearances, and the first phase of the line was to build the local tracks only. When construction of the line began, the City fought very hard to get the 6th Ave EL condemned, so it wouldn't have to be shored up to construct the subway beneath, saving time and money (it simply would have ben demolished). The City was not successful until December 1938, when the El was closed.
The 6th Ave express tracks between 34th & W 4th run under the H&M (today's PATH).
--Mark
Why wasn't 5th Ave then considered as an alternative, analogy: 9th Ave el > 8th Ave subway.
Arti
[Why wasn't 5th Ave then considered as an alternative, analogy: 9th Ave el > 8th Ave subway.]
Wealthy property owners and business interests wanted no part of a Fifth Avenue subway.
Fifth Avenue was also the only Avenue never to have a street railway.
Even Park Avenue had a railway, the first one to boot!
[Even Park Avenue had a railway, the first one to boot! ]
Wasn't it for the rr that Park Avenue got it's name.
Arti
That's true, it was a failed attempt at gentrification. Now, it obviously didn't fail in the long run, but the removal of the RR was the primary catalyst for Park Avenue's ultimate gentrification.
On SIR, the timetable for the tottenville line goes west/east. The line heads south/north. Is the line governed by the north shore line?
Is heading away from St.George west and to St.George east?
On the LIRR M1 MUs, there is a switch in the cab covered by a black guard. Is this the main switch for the cab equiptment? There is also a switch right next to the controller on the right hand panel. It has a red lable and seems to be covered. What does this do?
SIR runs railroad East West. Going to Tottenvile is Railroad EAST going to St. George is West, this ties into the East/West of the B&O.
Notice the signs on the signals, the will have an E or W for which way they are facing.
Don't know about LIRR.
And to really confuse the east/west thing, when the LIRR ran the Rockaway Line before the IND took it over, trains going from Far Rockaway towards Rockaway Park were considered going Eastbound!!!
Achtung! Atencion!
My New York railfan site is now semi-presentable for your viewing pleasure. I know there are some querks with it that I will address but mostly it is ok. Check back often as I will be adding new content throughout the month. Tell me what you think, and how I can improve it. (I have very litle subway stuff right now, but I will scan them and post them shortly)
-Daniel
(http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail)
No forced banner ads!
You forgot to insert the HTTP:// so the browser thinks it's a relative path and you also forgot to include the filename, so the Xoom frame is still there.
Sorry! The link was messed up! It's fine now
My New York railfan site is now semi-presentable for your viewing pleasure. I know there are some querks with it that I will address but mostly it is ok. Check back often as I will be adding new content throughout the month. Tell me what you think, and how I can improve it. (I have very litle subway stuff right now, but I will scan them and post them shortly)
-Daniel
(http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail)
No forced banner ads!
Sorry, I forgot to read this one before I responded to the other one, but the comment on filenames stands.
I know, I changed every page on my site to the _XMCM thing so the xoom banner would be eradicated. can anyone help me ID PRR #7000 on
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail/prr.html?
-Daniel
When did they stop naming cars like Low-V and started using the "R" designation? Why did they do that? And who coined the term "brightliners"?
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail
The "R" designation started with the IND. Check the history of the IND on this site. Can anyone explain to me the observable differences between the Hi-V and Low-V cars? Can anyone explain the drastic change in appearance of the last Low-V cars? (they look more like R1s) Why didn't they get a different designation?
[Why didn't they get a different designation? ]
Different company.
Arti
ok. ok. maybe i speedread the FAQ here
but can someone hit REWIND and tell me
(again) what the r as in r62 & r33
stands for besides contract order..
is it
registry?
register?
regard?
redbird?
Revenue, the reason being that R numbers are contract numbers and originally assigned only to purchases to be used for revenue producing equipment..
Peace,
ANDEE
Rolling stock. Basically, anything that runs on rails is under the R contract. The R127/134 cars are garbage train motors (two separate contracts), and the R137 is for the vacuum train, just to name a couple.
[Basically, anything that runs on rails is under the R contract]
This is not true of MTA diesel/electric locomotives and work cars such as cranes, tampers, ballast sweepers, rail grinders and flatcars. I think THEY run on rails too.
-Daniel
They have R contracts too.
The trucks that ran under the R-1 car had their own contract number - R-2, I believe. Starting with the R-4, the contract for the trucks kept the same contract number as that for the car body.
--Mark
Quote from the IND capsule history on this site:
>>> The "R" stood for "revenue", "rolling stock" or "rapid" depending on whom you speak to.<<<
Seems we may all be right.
Peace,
ANDEE
The easy one first:the last Low-V's...the l938 World's Fair cars. It was l3 years since the last of the standard body cars was built [those were built l9l0-l925]; image for the World's Fair, more modern etc. so they looked more modern; actually more like the rl0 or R12/14 than even resembling an R1-9. The visual differences between High-V and Low-V were few , except with the oldest [1904 Gibbs cars and l907 Deckroofs] From l9l0 thru l925 the bodies were the same; the high-v's built l904-l9l5 and the Low-v's l9l6-25. The l9l0 HV motors had 3 panels below the windows on side doors as the l9l5 and up cars, meaning all Low-v had only one panel. The l9l5 HV trailers were identical in appearance to the Low-v version. If you see a photo with a deckroof car in the train (instead of railroad roof) oor a Gibbs car (side doors at endsof cars were smaller) that would have to be a HV set. The Low-v although all standard body: the l9l7 and later cars didn't have the car numbers in glass panes, they were on metal. If you see such a car in a train it had to be an LV , or Steinway maybe. The Flivvers were a crossbreed between HV and LV's of sorts... they were the only train consists that had all the same vintage cars..l9l5. On first sight to a novice you wouldn't norice much difference. Need more help.. e-mail me.
Thanks for the information, it was enlightening.
As others have noted, it was the city-owned IND that began using
R- designations. The R stands for "Rolling Stock" and the number
indicates the government contract under which the cars were procurred.
After unification in 1940, all further cars purchased for all 3
divisions were R- types.
I don't know who, specifically (as in the name of the individual)
coined "brightliners" to describe the R-32s, which were the 3rd
stainless steel cars in the system (the BMT Zephyrs being the
first, the R-11s being the 2nd)
While the R-32s were the 3rd stainless steel cars on the system, they were the first "production" models. The Zephyr (only one built) and R-11 (10 built) were prototypes.
-- Ed Sachs
On this website there is a picture of the R32s being delivered with banners on which were written Brightliners. I first rode them in September, 1965. I do not know who coined the name and I first heard it from this website. The name is highly appropriate for two reasons: they were the first all-stainless steel equipment (except perhaps for the GOH R11s on the Franklin Shuttle) and they were first used on the Brighton Line (Q and M expresses) (and West End and Sea Beach). My favorite all-time subway picture (on this website, too) is of Q #3359 having ridden off into the sunset at Brighton Beach in October 1964.
If memory serves me right the name Brightliner was used instead of Silverliner in deference to that name being used in the Philly area for the new or late model Silverliner suburban MU's [used on both Reading and Pennsy I believe]. So as not to have two types of cars with the same name. But...don't know who coined the name.
If anyone out there has not seen any of salaam allah's videos check them out!!
excellent cab rides on the IRT #2,5 and 7 lines
the night time cab ride on the Flushing line is
fantastic as is Q and A lines to the Rockaways and
Lefferts blvd!!
as I no longer live on the east coast I am now able
to take the subway or el anytime I want when
watching these videos 2 thumbs up from a former
bronxboy.
.........thank you very much I am now getting excellent reviews of ""the best subway vidieos I have ever seen ""
from everybody who sees them how about that some of you IDIOTS here on subtalk ??????
How much,how long is it, and what is the address to receive a vodeo?
.......Thank you for your question .........
#1 FLUSHING -LINE NOVEMBER 1999 day and night views the entire line back & fourth 6 hours long
""night views not seen typically on any other railfan vidieos!!""
#2 irt redbirds entire line end to end 4 hours long shot with a sony tr 86 in the lp mode....... # 2 line fill ins added....
# 5 is used to fill the tpe up in the end total six hours long.......
#3 irt redbirds DYRE AVE six hours long shot november 1999 and march 2000 six hours long night views of # 5 .......
#4 MUSEUM TRAINS & then the E train also shot thru the motormans operating the controls !!!! 4 hours long...
#5 the Q $ A trains eight hours long full far rockway service night views and sunset views as well
the Q line e3nd to end .......
#6 L & J ( jay) trains end to end 4 hours plus fill in to total 6 hours long
THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER .........sometimes used to"" fill in ""......blank vidieotape space etc.....
COMING SOON THE LOS ANGELES METRO SAN DIEGO TROLLEY ORANGE EMPIRE RED CAR AND PCC
TROLLEY MUSEUM IN PERIS CALIFORNIA WITH THE OLD PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAIL STOCK.........
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
"" I have recieved reviews as being the best"" ( BY THOSE WHO HAVE BOUGHT MY TAPES )......
Thank you for your question......
3
Well, I can't let this go unanswered :)
Here are others, and an updated list should be posted any day now ....
--Mark
Recently, along the Concourse line, the stations department has taken to painting the unused advertisement squares on the station walls mustard yellow instead of black. This really looks like crap and of course marker grafitti has already started to appear and appear and appear. What in God's name are they thinking?
Peace,
ANDEE
Was it supposed to match the tile band on the wall, maybe?
--Mark
>>>Was it supposed to match the tile band on the wall, maybe?<<<
That would be nice but, alas, it is not the case. It is a really crappy paint job to boot looks more like some kind of primer job.
But, it's been 2 weeks or so since they've done it.
Peace,
ANDEE
From: The Bosses who sit on their collective asses
To: The folks who do the actual work in the stations
We over-ordered mustard yellow. Please use the remaining 700,000 gallons of mustard yellow paint to repaint anything that needs painting. No paint of any color will be ordered until we use up all the mustard yellow.
Next month, we will be accepting delivery of a few dozen new subway cars. Please paint any exposed metal surfaces on these cars mustard yellow.
The Management
-Hank :)
So THAT'S why the I-Beams at Queens Pza, which s/b PURPLE are actually that vomitious shade of Mustard Yellow! PHHOOOOEY!! PTOOEY!
Did they paint the ad-panels at 182nd-183rd Street Mustard Yellow as well? That would be a real hoot if they did!
I simply can NOT STAND stations which have I-beams painted a different color than the tile band...i.e. 169th Street (red band + lt.green I-beams = AWFUL!). This seems to be a problem particularly on the Queens Blvd. IND. And the choice of color at the recently-overhauled Lorimer Street station: Marine Green? What??? They HAD slate blue there before the overhaul (that color's in the mosaic and tablets), why on earth did they use this ugliest shade of green?
wayne
05/25/2000
Speaking of green paint and the over ordering of paint. That shade of green used on the R-10's must have been an surplus order now the TA is using it to paint EL structures and some station columns.
Bill "Newkirk"
>>>Did they paint the ad-panels at 182nd-183rd Street Mustard Yellow as well? That would be a real hoot if they did!<<<
Not yet, but the ad panels at Bedford Park have been painted this color. Do not know about KB and Fordham (haven't been upstairs recently). All ad panels south of Tremont have been painted this color. Have even noticed some CPW stations receiving this treament. It is not even the coreect shade it is about 4 shades lighter than it should be.
Peace,
ANDEE
Checked it out and yes they have done the same thing to Fordham, 116th, 103rd and 86th.
Peace,
ANDEE
Back date that memo by about 30 years and change the color and I think you'll find the explanation for why they peainted the inside of all those subway cars pistachio green and gray.
Here come the "MustardBirds" ......
--Mark
Here's a fantasy railfan El trip for you.
Start at Woodlawn & Jerome, south to the Anderson cut-off to the 9th Ave El, then down all the way to South Ferry. Then up the the 3rd Ave line all the way back up to the 241st St in the Bronx. Return on the White Plains Rd line and up the Bergen Cut-off back to the 3rd Ave line to the river, the down the 2nd Ave line back to Chatham Sq to get back on the 3rd Ave line to South Ferry. Then back up 6th Ave line. Return back to South Ferry and back up the 3rd & 2nd Ave lines to the Queenboro Bridge and out to the Astoria and Flushing lines and then return back to City Hall so we can take the Brooklyn El trip.
And, what is amazing, that this trip could have been taken about 60 years ago. Anybody have any idea how many miles and how long this trip may have taken (assume express tracks, and only stopping for junctions and reverses. (There was a Y at South Ferry).
How does this elevated track milage compare to the old Brooklyn elevated track milage, (from the time of the entire Fulton St line that would have connected to the Brighton Line and the other Brooklyn el lines.
Here is that Brooklyn fantasy trip.
From Park Row in Manhattan, (after concluding the NY El trip), across the Bridge to the Fulton Ave Line, down the Franklin line to Coney Island, up the Culver line back to 69th St, then down and back on the 3rd Ave line (or a trolley over to the 5th Ave line down & back to Sands St Terminal. Then, out on to the Myrtle Ave line all the way to Metropolitan Ave, then back and switch to the Broadway line to Delancy St and/or the ferry terminal. Then back out all the way to the Jamacia line, then back to East NY, then out to Canarsie and back, the out the rest of the Fulton line & back to ENY and on to the Broadway line to pick up the Lexington Ave line back to the Brigde and the Fulton Ferry Terminal.
The Brooklyn Fantasy trip could be further enhanced with the former connections to the LIRR and the West End line and the various electric freight lines and trolley or ground running lines that existed. The possibilities are almost endless the the Brooklyn trips when the Els connected with those various surface lines and trolley lines.
There was also a possibility of interchange with the NY Els with the NYC RR at Sedgwick Ave, (the former route of the NY&N from the 155th St Terminal) and a connection with the New Haven at Willis Ave & 133st from the 3rd Ave line (at the river). Although, this would have been strictly interchange, not thru (electric) running like the Brooklyn connections. I do not believe that there were any connections from the NY El to any other surface or trolley lines in Manhattan or the Bronx.
Then, when you start talking about the El connections to the interurbans and surface lines in the Chicago area, Wow! You get to cross a few state lines with those trips, and then those outer (former electic interurban) connections will require you to pack a lunch or two.
Thanks for the thoughts; I missed most of those old els but what little I sampled was great. Guess that was my initial fascination with Chicago (that's what the "L" at the end of my handle means.)Chicago is the only city left where you can ride into the city center on an el, and its great night or day; I did have a brief taste of the North Shore Interurbans on the Chi. L. Just think, not only those dandy els (especially Manhattan) but all those classic, nostalgic trains too. The sounds, smells, and ambienmce nothing modern has. Sad to say, iI only orode 3rd Ave el on its last day, but it made me a fan of that system. It was great.
I can't think of anything better than El trips and I am sorry they are gone. I did get to ride the 3rd Ave El from Gunhill Road to South Ferry. The best part of the ride was south of Chatam Square where the train twisted and turned with only inches (well maybe about 36 inches) from the near by buildings. The speed was always slow and the wheels were always screeching on the turns.
Another fun trip was the Myrtle Ave line in the summer. It's a shame the line was so short, but grat fun to ride the gate cars, especially the ones with the open sides and pull down curtains. (See Car #1301 in the El section of this site).
One day as a child my mom thought we'd take the 3rd ave. el home from the ferry [I was about 6---my mom was grown] but unfortunately I enjoyed the IRT subway quite well so we didn't I missed the South Ferry stretch, and never rode the line at all until closing day 5/12/55 for a farewell trip. bOY WAS I EVER SORRY I hadn't done 3rd Ave. sooner. But then I started chasing wood equipment (remains of 3rd Ave, Myrtle, and the remains of Fulton.) and had the good fate to ride the open platform BU's on Myrtle until 4/58, almost 3 years. Then as luck would have it the Q's were still kicking when I became a motorman in l967 and I had the good luck to run them off and on for about 2 years! As a kid I never dreamed I'd see that day. I suggest you try to contact Karl B. on this site. He's a n old Brooklyn el buff.
How's this for a fantasy El: A high-speed elevated line running down the median strip of Massachusetts Route 9 from Worcester to Boston. Anyone from Mass will know that this is an old highway, featuring many steep hills and curves. A high speed trip on this would resemble a roller coaster more than a train in some places, but it could cut the time from Worcester to Boston in half.
Since my office just moved to Jersey City last week I was walkig around to day and on Washington St 1 block south of the HBLR there is a set of tracks coming through the pavement I was only able to follow it for the one block because al others are being or have been repaved, there is only a small section showing but the crack on the stret is easy to follow for the res of the block.
Does anyone knw what these track were once for?
These were probably trolley tracks that were used at the turn of the century. Were they in cobblestones? All trolley lines in Jersey City were taken out of service in the late 1940s.
-Daniel
These were probably trolley tracks that were used at the turn of the century. Were they in cobblestones? All trolley lines in Jersey City were taken out of service in the late 1940s. If you go to Hoboken, tracks could also be seen in the street closest to the river by Stevens Institute. These were used for freight and lead into an industrial shipyard.
-Daniel
the prr ran fright cars over tothe colgate plant. the big clock on the river is all that left.
Thought that was coming down too.
The clock is a landmark, it's not coming down.
That street is called Sinatra Drive.
And the HBLR is from the turn of the century, and is built in cobblestones.
Cobblestones are not mutially exclusive to the 19th Century. When you say "turn of the century" you are referring to the change in 1901. We are all still in the 20th Century, the 21st doesn't start until 1/1/01. At BSM, 4 of our cars will have operated in three centuries - 19th, 20th and 21st!
I can remember Broadway in Brooklyn in the 1940's still being cobblestone. My dad used to try to keep the car wheels on the trolley tracks for a smoother, quieter ride.
Cypress Hills St in Brooklyn ( a very heavily traveled street in those days ) was completely cobblestone up till the late 1940's. Its nickname then was "Stoney Road". They never tore up the cobblestones, they just put blacktop on top on them.
Germantown Ave in Philadelphia (the route of the #23 trolley there) was cobblestone up till around 1980 when IIRC the center portions were redone in concrete and the shoulders left in cobblestone. I think it's still like that (was last there in 1994).
-Dave
Flushing Avenue in Greenpoint is also partially cobblestoned with the Flushing Ave. trolley tracks still in them. They could also be seen elsewhere in potholes where the cobble stones were paved over with asphalt.
-Daniel
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail
I can remember driving on the street tracks under the Culver el for the same reason. 2) INow I know what one of my friends from East Brooklyn Presbyterian church meant..Stoney Road. You answered a long standing question. 3)We weren't lucky to get rid of cobblestones in the Bronx that early. I can remember l959 thru l96l still riding my bike on them.. chattered my teeth when I got the 3speed bike, not bad on balloon tires. But I had more than one wipeout hitting those trolley tracks with my bike (even though l2 years had gone by since there were trolleys). Oh well, I'm lucky I'm around to laugh about it. Next time take the train...haha. 4) Maybe Arnold Joseph still has some of thos token for sale..then he can pay me..haha.
I thought that Stoney Road was its real name. I was very surprised the first time that I heard Cypress Hills St, and thought it was a brand new name.
It was quite an experience riding a B-13 bus through there when the surface was still cobblestone.
The turn of the century does not refer to one day, it's a period of a few years around the century change. Anything from about 1997 to the present date qualifies.
yes they are in cobblestones
I was walking up 48th Street. I saw a sign indicating a railroad crossing ahead. The sign was on a support column for the railroad tracks crossing over 48th Street.
Further up, I noticed the RXR marking on the northbound side of the street, just south of 37th Avenue. North of 37th Avenue, not at the intersection, but about 40 feet north of the intersection, a similar marking can be found on the southbound side. The thing is, THERE IS NO GRADE CROSSING BETWEEN THE TWO MARKINGS! There used to be, but it no longer exists. I did see tracks on the west side of 48th Street, but they only spanned the width of the sidewalk, about 3 feet. To the west, is a patch of land where weeds cover up any evidence of railroad tracks. To the west of that sidewalk, any remains of a grade crossing have been paved over. On the east sidewalk, there is no evidence of a grade crossing. If the tracks were there today, they would run right through the Edward's supermarket on the east side of the street, the parking lot to the east of that, then the Home Depot parking lot and building to the east. I remember many years ago seeing a freight train cross here, but that was before it looked like what it does today. In fact, the crossing was there when I entered William C. Bryant High School in 9th grade, and was gone by the time I was in 11th grade. Now here it is, I'm a college freshman, and the signs are there indicating a railroad crossing, BUT THERE IS NO CROSSING! What's up with that?
I believe the crossing served the old Ronzoni pasta factory which stood where the Home Depot is now located. The factory was demolished a few years ago after having been vacant for some time.
There is another one of these phantom crossings along the old Evergreen Branch on Hancock St. between Wyckoff and Irving Aves.
Here's a picture.
I remember passing the old Ronzoni factory in its delapidated state. I think they took it down while I was in the 10th or 11th grade.
"There used to be, but it no longer exists. I did see tracks on the west side of 48th Street, but they only spanned the width of the sidewalk, about 3 feet."
Was it a narrow gauge RR crossing?
Today this morning like around 11:00AM I saw a R46 #6460 southbound at Times Square with a "R" brown circle first time I have seen but other people have posted that they seen it so I agree. Sorry if I am posting this but I know that 2 people have posted this but this happen to do with car #5940 I just saw it today and it is still with the "R" brown diamond I was wondering why can the motorman change it to the right color is the motorman a big time fan with the "R" brown diamond or he is just marking it just for people could remember the line? (if you know right to me)
I saw the same car a few months ago, but it was on the rear of the southbound train. Is there a loop track at Jamaica, or is there anyhwhere else the train could have turned all the way around?
You did not see car #6460..................
#6460 isn't an R-46, it's an R-16.
I am sorry guys my mistake it wasn't car #6460 that I saw it was R46#6064 were I saw the "R" brown circle please forgive me guys my fault.(I am sorry about the mistake of the car # it could happen to anybody) Thank you for reminding me that car #6460 was an R16. Thanks
#6460
And it will soon be an R-142.
wayne
As a conductor, I have experienced many signs on the 46 equiptment that won't move. The front and rear signs are turned by motor- they are not turned manually. Several of these motors are not working and have been reported to the RCI's who then inspect these conditions and notify the yard- either Jamacia or Coney Island- to repair the motor.
Obtaining parts may also cause a delay in repair if the needed parts have to be ordered and are not in stock. The 68 car with the "K" sign on it became another issue. This occured when the sign became stuck when it was being changed. Generally, trains are not taken out of service because of defective sign motors. Repairs will be made during regular scheduled maintenance checks and service.
When I was in Union Station, Washington, D.C. around noon, I found that AEM7AC 924 was ready to haul Train #190 to New York. I found that this was the time to take pictures on it at New Carrollton. Therefore I went back home, pick up my camera bag, and drove to New Carrollton.
As expected, AEM7AC 924 haul train #190. I took a lot of pictures on AEM7AC 924. The only regret was that it was against the light.
Phillip asked me two weeks ago about the noise on AEM7ACs, but I didn't have an answer then. When AEM7AC 924 stopped, I observed that it was as noisy as an AEM7. I don't think there is noise reduction on AEM7AC.
Chaohwa
Would you consider posting the photos once developed?
I will do it once my slide film is developed.
I've already had a picture of AEM7AC 924 here, but it was very dark that day.
Chaohwa
I saw AEM7AC 916 hauling Metroliner #126 at New Carrollton today. I was so surprised that it was too late to pick up my camera to shoot it.
I think that when an AEM7AC hauls a Metroliner train by itself, it is good sign that this AEM7AC is in good shape. It seems that the remanufacturing program begins to work.
Chaohwa
I've been looking at some of the pictures of R32 cars on this site. It seems to me that some of these cars (3950-1) don't look like R32's. They look like R38 cars!!! What's up with that?
The answer? THEY ARE R38 cars, put on the wrong page!
And another thing, why aren't there more pictures of R32-GOH cars on this site? The only one I've seen was of #3718.
He's right. 3950 and 3951 are R38s. The ridges only go half way up. And according to the roster summary on this site, they are the first 2 R-38s.
Same thing with the R40 and R40M - not too many post-GOH pictures. I have quite a few of these; may get them to Dave in the NTDF.
wayne
Thanks for pointing out the mis-classification.
As to why there aren't pictures of "X" on the site, well, when someone contributes them I put them up. I too do a fair amount of travelling and photography but even I can't be out there every day getting pictures for requests.
-DAve
Don't expect any R32GE pictures soon, unless someone has them already... they've done the ritual dissapearance act for the summer already.
At what point does the Metro-Norh start using overhead catenary on the New Haven line? I want get some photos for my site.
-Daniel
I believe the merger point is somewhere in Mount Vernon.
It's just past Pelham Station.
It is about halway beteween Mount Vernon and Pelham, but you might haqve some trouble finding the exact spot as they do it while the trains are moving. The driver puts the controller in "coast" and switches a little switch in the cab.
So they put the pantographs up while in motion? On the Boston T blue line at Maverick, they put them up standing still at the station.
-Daniel
Yes. If you happen to be sitting beneath one with a car full of quiet passengers, you can hear them going up distinctly.
Often when I am waiting at new Haven station they will repeatidly raise and lower the pans on a train about to depart. They make crashing sound when they come down and they shake the catenary when they pop up.
As an aside my friend told me about how once on durring his daily commute to school from Jersey Ave. to Newark Penn, one of his roudy friends got into one of the NU control areas and lowered the pans while the train was in motion. Of course the lights went out and the train slowed a little b4 the engineer put them back up again.
The reason for the crashing sound is because the pans arc visably (this winter, I'm going to try to get a photo of this) as they lower. This is because the M-2/4/6 cars don't have any main circuit breaker that can open, thus the pans lower under a load.
As for going up - some tracks at new haven are better than others in terms of bounce. The new constant tension stuff isn't that great - it bounces a bit (it's supposed to give a bit), but not much. I'm not sure if there's any intentional damping in the support structure (there may be). Last I checked they were about halfway through the station with it...
BTW - all PRR MP-54 cars had a button in them to drop *all* the pans in the train regardless of whether or not a control plug was stuck in the controller (one needs only the plug, not the handle, BTW) I'm not sure if one needs to release the button (by pulling it out) to allow the pans to be raised again (I think you do).
BTW - the propper procedure for raising the pans on those cars was to first hit the down button for a few secs THEN hold the up for a few secs. This prevented the pans from comming up too fast or bouncing.
No, the crashing sound is when the decending pans impact with the top of the MU car. When the MU's are in the station and are not providing much load the arcing is negliable, but you can see it when they are departing the station and pass through the catenary breaks.
The catenary starts east of Mount Vernon and the third rail stops just west of Pehlem. For a stort distance both exist.
A little bit of history:
The third rail used to begin just north of Woodlawn tower, but was
extended in the late 1980s, I believe.
The 4400s had retractable 3rd rail shoes, when the M2s were introduced
in the late 70s the shoes often broke off because of lack of clearance...
Heh. The pantographs used to break off too! Still do in fact. You can see pantograph parts all over the New Haven line, though I hear the washboards had REALLY bad pans on them.
The third rail extention was to allow the switchover to take place farther up thew New Haven line. Thus, a train that blew the switchover (and they do at times), wouldn't get stuck in the interlocking there and tiew up everything.
What is the differance between single arm and double arm pans? It seems that all the modern locos and MUs have single arms, but the older stuff like Arrow MUs and GG1s have doubles. It would seem that two arms would provide more support, but it probably also wighs down the pan more too.
Did anyone notice that the Amtrak AEM7s have recently (withing the last two years) changed all their pantographs to a lighter thin red one. They all used to have a heavier black one of a differant design.
-Daniel
Also, some Jersey Arrows used to have single arm pans, but they have
all been converted to double...
Pans aren't classified in terms of single or double arm. There are Stiensen (or something like that) style abd Faverly (or something like that) style. The Stiensen pans are the older diamond shaped type found on GG-1's, EP-5's, MP-54's etc. They are made of 4 jointed planes with diagonal bracing. At the Reading, Blue Mt. and Northern yard in Hamburg PA there is a stack of Stiensen pans pull off of old reading Blueliners if anyone would like a souvenier.
The Faverly pan is made of 2 pieces jointed at the "shoe". The lower piece is a solid tube and the upper part is a triangular fan. These are found on Silverliners, E-44's, E-60's, the Metro-North EMU's and the SEPTA Arrows. The NJT Arrows have a bizzare double faverly which is made of two normal ones joined at the top. The AEM-7's have an economy Faverly which does away with the upper triangular fan and just has another metal rod which hooks onto the "shoe".
Those "Blueliner pans sound inviting. One might just do well on my K-Line Reading Blueline Iterurban.
avid
Is the new equipment on the Newark City Subway yet? I want to know before I take a ride out there.
Train Buff Headquarters
No, It's still PCC Equipment operated on the 7 City Subway Line, the new Kinkishayro cars won't see service until fall of 2000!
R142 boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
But the cars are all there at the new maintenance yard. There is no wire up (as of 3 weeks ago) at the yard and a track-mobile was on the end of a string of cars last time I and Mark W. were there.
The cars have been there for about 2-3 months already, but they reconstruction will not be ready until the fall!
Trevor
R142 Boi 2K
www.transitalk.com
Track work is stille being done and not all the catenary is up yet last time I checked. PCCs have pantographs though. Also, a new bridge was built ast the Orange Street station accross the NJ Transit rail cut under I-73 (I think). I've got a before and after shot of this location at:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail/pcc.html
I would still go to ride the PCCs before they are gone forever.
-Daniel
05/25/2000
One set of LRV's is on the property on the Newark City Subway as shown in a slide show at the ERA meeting on Friday, May 19th.
The one trainset was moved with a diesel powered track vehicle where the wire is not functional, or even up yet. This is to test clearances and to train operators on the new equipment. One PCC, #25 was moved for storage in the new maintainece facility to make room in Newark-Penn Station since storage space is at a premium. PCC #25 is said to be retired early due to electrical problems.
At Orange St. station, that's I-280 above.
Bill "Newkirk"
That'd be I78, not I73.
-Hank
And it's not I-78 either.
I-73 doesn't exist yet. If it did, it would be between I-71 and I-75 or close enough to it.
You guys don't drive much (or look at maps) do you.
I-280 is the road that crosses over the Orange St. station. The Newark Subway doesn't reach as far south as I-78 (which goes past Nwk Airport) and it certainly doesn't go far enough west to reach I-73.
I guess there's not much crossover between railfans and roadgeeks. :-)
-Dave
Can't speak for others, but I'm both a railfan AND a roadgeek. If I ride an outside rail line in a strange city I take along a road map so I can trace my route; otherwise I feel like I'm in a vacuum.
It's a double-edged sword. When I used to go to Transit forums at Borough Hall, I'd hear motorist-bashing and I'm a motorist! When I read CAR & TRAVEL, the magazine sent to AAA members such as myself, I read mass transit-bashing, and I use mass transit!
It seems like you can't be both without getting hit from both sides.
[Can't speak for others, but I'm both a railfan AND a roadgeek. If I ride an outside rail line in a strange city I take along a road
map so I can trace my route; otherwise I feel like I'm in a vacuum.
It's a double-edged sword. When I used to go to Transit forums at Borough Hall, I'd hear motorist-bashing and I'm a motorist! When I read CAR & TRAVEL, the magazine sent to AAA members such as myself, I read mass transit-bashing, and I use mass transit!]
I also try to keep my feet in both camps, so to speak.
As far as intolerance is concerned, I have to say that railfans seem to be worse. Many of them are quite anti-car, as you noted at the forums. I'd have to attribute that mainly to a lack of gepgraphical sophistication. Even the most pro-transit people can see that much of the country is unsuited to transit use on account of low density and residential/employment dispersion. But if your sphere of knowledge is limited to New York and a few other large cities - if you're one of those people who avoids the suburbs like the plague - you very well might not come to that realization.
My knowledge of roadgeek attitudes is more limited, gained mainly from discussions on misc.transport.road. Not many roadgeeks have strong opinions on transit, although they may consider some projects to be expensive boondoggles for unions and other special interests. But most roadgeeks, like most people living outside a few urban areas, simply don't give transit much thought. They don't use it, and don't know anyone who does, and therefore it's out of sight, out of mind.
As far as intolerance is concerned, I have to say that railfans seem to be worse. Many of them are quite anti-car, as you noted at the forums. I'd have to attribute that mainly to a lack of gepgraphical sophistication. Even the most pro-transit people can see that much of the country is unsuited to transit use on account of low density and residential/employment dispersion. But if your sphere of knowledge is limited to New York and a few other large cities - if you're one of those people who avoids the suburbs like the plague - you very well might not come to that realization.
Just for the record...
I was born within the city of Cincinnati, and lived in Fort Thomas, KY, an older bedroom community across the river from Cincinnati until I was about 9.
We then moved to Asheville, NC, a medium-sized city where we lived for a couple years in a quiet residential neighborhood within the city.
In 1987 we moved to Jacksonville, FL, and lived in an apartment complex in the midst of suburban sprawl on the city's south side.
The following year we moved to Beaufort, SC, a small town on the coast. We lived in military housing in a predominantly rural area northwest of the town.
In 1991 we moved back to Jacksonville and lived in the same general area as before.
In 1993 we moved to Great Lakes Naval Training Center, about an hour north of Chicago. We lived in base housing adjacent to the rather depressed towns of North Chicago and Waukegan, between the upper-class town of Lake Bluff and the suburban sprawl of the rest of Lake County.
In 1998 I moved out of my parents' place and into my own apartment in Chicago's Lincoln Park neighborhood, a very dense urban neighborhood about 3 miles north of the Loop.
About a year later, my parents moved to Raleigh, NC and now live in a cookie-cutter subdivision surrounded by strip malls. My dad sits in traffic for 2 hours each day, and is convinced that an additional expressway now under construction will solve all that area's traffic woes.
In two days I move to Brookline, MA, an older, close-in suburb of Boston not unlike my childhood home of Fort Thomas in terms of density.
As you can see, in my 25 years I've pretty much covered the entire spectrum between very high-density urban living and very low-density rural living, and just about everything in between.
I point this out just in case anybody gets the idea that my intolerance of suburban sprawl and its accompanying narrow-mindedness comes from any sort of urban provincialism on my part. I've lived that life and I've seen it with my own eyes.
I don't hate automobiles per se; I just believe that the physical design of urban areas should allow for as many diverse transportation modes as possible. The current patterns of suburban sprawl, forced mainly by 1950's-era zoning laws and traffic engineering dogma, all but preclude any form of transportation other than the automobile. That's just plain wrong.
Such development patterns have already been proven many times over to be a dismal failure in terms of sustainability and the environment, as well as deeper issues of social isolation and upper-class bigotry. (Columbine High School, anybody? I fear that was just the tip of the iceberg.) But people seem addicted to it as if it were some sort of narcotic. That addiction is the focus of my intolerance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
About a year later, my parents moved to Raleigh, NC and now live in a cookie-cutter subdivision surrounded by strip malls. My dad sits in traffic for 2 hours each day, and is convinced that an additional expressway now under construction will solve all that area's traffic woes.
So he's fallen for the myth of the Outer Loop, eh? Our North Carolina home is about 35 miles ENE of Raleigh, in Franklin County 3.5 miles east of Bunn. The traffic nightmare that Raleigh has become is worse than the traffic here on the Jersey Shore. And the Outer Loop isn't going to solve it - indeed, I suspect that it will only make matters worse. I-40 to RTP was originally constructed with a reserved median for rapid transit, similar to I-66 west of Washington, D.C.; room to widen the highway was left along the edges. When the highway was widened about ten years ago, the legislature succumbed to the highway lobby and put a condition in the funding bill that the additional lanes had to go in the designated transit median, thereby guaranteeing that construction of a rapid transit line would forever be too costly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I own 3 vehicles..my wife's 88 yuppiemobile, my classic 56 Buick and my truck, a junky 83 Chevy van. At one time or another one is needed, and we probably dont drive l0,000 miles a year. In this little NoDak town I walk or ride my bicycle when I can [I"m 57].. I wish people would do the same but everyone else drives for every two-bit quarter mile ride. In smaller cities such as Billings, MT or Bismarck ND there is poor or no bus service but I wish there were some timely service and people would use it; in places like NYC or Chicago there's ample public transit..likewise for some suburbs..I wish more people used it; there are a lot who'll drive everywhere. In other words there are times cars/trucks are needed but the abuse of them and not using=more environmentally friendly modes when they can, including bicycles or walking, irritate me to no end.
A '56 Buick, eh? Is it in nice shape? I always thought it would be cool to get my hands on a '56 Chevy, if for no other reason than because I was born that year. My father had a '56 Pontiac on order, then canceled it when he ruptured a disk in his back. He wound up keeping his '53 Chieftain until we left South Bend in 1967.
A recent study shows that 4% of the population of metro Denver (2 million or thereabouts) uses mass transit. I-25 is approaching gridlock during rush hours. A major 19.6-mile widening project is slated to begin next year, which will include a light rail line alongside the highway. It promises to be a 7-year headache; however, something has to be done.
69 Buick riveria,Hard topconvt. White top, charcole grey bottom, 47K original mi. Garaged, Estate sale e-mail me.
avid
People don't learn until it's too late; everyone loves the convenience of their cars until situations as you describe develop and or they can't breathe the air. If Denver is anything like the growth in Montana much of the huge growth is people from other metro areas that should have been a step ahead. So now light rail gets a little toehold but systems could have been in place long ago. RThe 56 Buick is quite nice by the way. Could use a new paint job but body and machinery well kept. No salt on the roads in Montana or NoDak.
Mint, Mint Mint
[I don't hate automobiles per se; I just believe that the physical design of urban areas should allow for as many diverse transportation modes as possible. The current patterns of suburban sprawl, forced mainly by 1950's-era zoning laws and traffic engineering dogma, all but preclude any form of transportation other than the automobile. That's just plain wrong.
Such development patterns have already been proven many times over to be a dismal failure in terms of sustainability and the environment, as well as deeper issues of social isolation and upper-class bigotry. (Columbine High School, anybody? I fear that was just the tip of the iceberg.) But people seem addicted to it as if it were some sort of narcotic. That addiction is the focus of my intolerance.]
I agree that development in most parts of the country is way too auto-oriented. This goes for commercial as well as residential development. Unfortunately, I don't see what can be done to change matters. Many people - no, not everyone, but what seems like a majority - prefer this sort of low-density lifestyle. *Somebody's* buying suburban houses and *somebody's* shopping at strip malls. There are no reasonable ways to impose changes that will reverse these preferences, at least within the context of a democratic society. At best, we have to hope that preferences will shift, and more people will decide on a less-dense, more transit-friendly lifestyle. But that can't be imposed.
(Many people - no, not everyone, but what seems like a majority - prefer this sort of low-density lifestyle).
You have to consider two factors.
First externality -- my car improves my quality of life, your car reduces may quality of life. That's why no one is willing to support restrictions on the auto per se, but everyone wants traffic calming in their neighborhood and no one wants new highways. In the end, the auto will be choked by NIMBY.
Second, were it not for zoning (ie the government stopping people from doing what they choose) builders would make lots smaller and streets narrower, residents would convert to two families to accomodate relatives and get income, and some people would convert houses in the middle of subdivisions to convenience stores and local services, which would then be in walking distance.
Since most of the planning/environmental lobby is "liberal," the think of reducing auto dependency in terms of increasing government regulation, not decreasing it. And since much of the anti-planning/enviornmental lobby is conservative/pro-business, it is blind to the hypocracy of tacitly supporting government intervention in the marketplace to hurt the environment and keep people poor. I guess I'm a "hard green."
So am I. I enjoy a good drive around an area. In addition to being on street level, you can stop at will (well, not always, but you can always take the next ramp) and turn around to check something out. I also have a greater feel for where I am when in a car.
I absolutely LOATE transit maps that do not at least try to be geographically accurate. I have Boston road maps and the T map, but I can't relate them, except downtown. I couldn't relate Washington, D.C. either until I got the street map with transit. I wouldn't stand not keeping geographical track of my path.
Just to point out some crappy geographically non-accurate maps in addition to the Boston T and the D.C. Metro:
-The 1972 NYC Subway map: It was terrible and had several stations in the rivers. The colored lines and dots were confusing and not accurate at all. The crave for aesthetisicm I guess clouded the judgements of TA officials in publishing this monstrosity of a map.
-The current PATH map is also terrible. According to the map, the distance between Journal Sq. and Harrison is equal to the distance between Grove St. and Exchange Pl. Although it also has roads, the location of the roads are incorrect. If I was a tourist, I would easily get lost outside the train.
As an example of a good map, the HBLR map (non-condensed form) is very accurate. It shows EVERY street in Jersey city and has an accurate scale.
-Daniel
The TA map of the late 50s and early 60s wasn't accurate at all, either. It was all straight lines. The TA must have figured people wouldn't have any concept of direction while traveling in a tunnel.
No attempt was made for geographic accuracy at all in the 1974 map.
Inaccuracies of the '74 map:
1. Forest Pk. .5 cm from 71/continental.
2. Court Sq. 2 inches from 23/ely.
3. Cortland St stations on B'way, 2-3, and 1 lines nowhere near Chambers-WTC, which is shown as one station.
4. N, QB, B, D, F all use same East River Crossing.
5. E. B'way & Grand st in East River.
6. B'way lines run perpendicular to 6th ave lines at 34st, yet paralell N and S of it.
7. Franklyn ave SS runs paralell to 2,3,4,5 from Botanic GDN to Prospect Pk.
8. Willets Pt. Shea Stadium in Flushing Bay
9. Flushing Bay the size of a small hand, Flushing Meadow Park smaller than a thumb.
10. Distance between Last Manhattan / Last Queens station on East River crossings is less than the distance between other stations immediately adjacent on the same line.
All subway maps are geographically inaccurate. The '70s version is probably the worst. Even today's map is distorted for convenience. Staten Island is no where near as close to Manhattan as it shows, but to show it to proper scale would require the map to be much bigger.
As some of you alrady know I enjoy both. Every chance I get I drive home with my top down ... which BTW has a little sign on the back that says "I love trolleys". I also enjoy a drive on an open road away from the city. If a mass transit commute wasn't so complicated or time comsuming (1/2 hour vs. 1 1/2 to two) I would probally ride. This I did very happly for 11 years to Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
I was standing in 42nd street around 3:00 today, and I saw a 2 Train that was headed upwtown that its Tailling Car said New Lots Avenue. Also on the Downtown side, I saw a 2 headed for Utica Avenue. Does this happen often?
I see a lot of 2's on the New Lots line after rush hour, so I assume that all SB #2's that are going out of service after rush hour get sent to Livonia. These trains continue over the Eastern Parkway line at Franklin, and either discharge all passengers at Utica and deadhead to Livonia (saves a few minutes for the 7 station stops between Utica and New Lots) or terminate at New Lots.
In the AM rush there are two 2 trains to Utica and (Ithink) five of them to New Lots. The trains to Utica actually come back uptown during the morning; the ones to New Lots lay up at Livonia.
Yes, it happens at least every weekday. There are the trains that start from or go to Livonia Yard to lay up.
Chaohwa
They have scheduled 2 Trains as well as 4 and 5 trains that start and terminate at New Lots Avenue this is due trains havig to lay up in Livionia Yard. The 2 Train that terminates at Utica Avenue in the morning rush hour returns as a 5. There are also 5 trains that terminate at Utica Avenue so the trains can lay up in the storage tracks at the south end of the station. To allow a gap in service on 4 Avenue to let work trains from 36 Street Yard heading to work sites and the revenue collector more time to pick up on the local track between 36 Street and Pacific Street. There are three B Trains between 8:00 P.M. and 9:30 P.M. that operate lite over the Culver Line to Broadway Lafayette Street and then go into service. They also had Two N Trains that operate in service over the Brighton Line (I have not checked the current schedule if this service still operates.)
[ They also had Two N Trains that operate in service over the Brighton Line ]
So that's why they did it? To allow a gap in service on 4th Avenue to let work trains from 36th Street Yard heading to work sites and the revenue collector more time to pick up on the local track between 36th Street and Pacific Street? I actually asked about those trains a little while back. Where were you then?
Apparently there was a relatively minor derailment on the R6 commuter line in Philadelphia this afternoon. There is not much coverage, except on the traffic reports (in fact, on Channel 6, they had the traffic report about it, and 45 minutes later "this just in..."
05/24/00 3:15 p.m. -- Regional Rail R6 train service is being substituted with shuttle buses between center city and Norristown due to a derailment. Shuttle train service is available between Norristown and Elm Street. Passengers should use the following alterate SEPTA Routes:
Passengers from center city should take the R8 to the Queen Lane station where they can board shuttle buses to their final destinations.
From center city to Spring Mill and Conshocken, passengers should take the Market- Frankford El to 69th Street Terminal and then connect with the Route 100 Trolley to Gulph Mills, where they can take shuttle buses to their final destinations.
From East Falls, Wissahickon, Manayunk, Ivy Ridge and Miquon Stations, passengers should take shuttle buses to the Queen Lane Station and connect to the R8 Line to center city.
From center city to the Norristown Transportation Center, Main Street, and Elm Street passengers should take the Market-Frankford to 69th Street Terminal, then connect to
the Route 100 the Norristown Transportation Center. To get to Main Street and Elm Streets there will be a shuttle bus at the Norristown Transportation to take passengers to those two stations.
I had seen some buses signed up for R6 Shuttle headed in the opposite direction from my bus on the way home this evening but hadn't noticed anything on the 6:00 news. I guess this explains it...
Does anyone here have a way of letting me know what times the Acela Express train will be running on June 12 and/or 17 and/or the times the R142 will be leaving/arriving at Pelham Bay Park, East 177 Street, 86th Street, 77th Street, and Brooklyn Bridge on June 15, 16, and 17th?
Thanks, in advance.
I saw one running out of Baltimore Penn on Monday when I was coming back from Atlanta.
It was just before 10. The full set with HHP-8's was rolling along at about 70mph.
Are you talking about an Acela Express?
Yes! It was one of the trains that will be used for Acela Express service.
If it was HHL-8s, then it wasn't Acela Express. Acela Express are the new high-speed trainsets that will replace the Metroliners. The HHL-8 locos will be used on the Acela Regional service, currently known as Northeast Direct. It will use rebuilt current equipment, not new trainsets.
-Hank
The latest is the R 142A should be running on the Pelham Line on June 15th and the first trip is suppose to Start anywhere around 5AM to 6AM out of Pelham Bay Park.
THIS IS NOT Final Yet!
I will have more Updates.
Orange, Milford, New Haven, or West Haven CT? My job is being relocated, and I'm thinking about going; however, I'm looking for costs and such. Right now, I don't really have any, since I live with 'Mommy', so I don't have too much of a clue on what I'm going to get myself into.
-Hank
[Orange, Milford, New Haven, or West Haven CT? My job is being relocated, and I'm thinking about going; however, I'm looking for costs and such. Right now, I don't really have any, since I live
with 'Mommy', so I don't have too much of a clue on what I'm going to get myself into.]
I'm originally from Waterbury, which isn't too far away, so I know a bit about those towns. West Haven is probably your best bet. It's a decent enough town with a fairly wide range of housing types and prices. If you're looking to rent, there's a fairly ample supply of apartments. I really don't know enough to give you an idea of what rents might be like, but they're surely a lot less than what you'd see in the city. Milford is somewhat like West Haven, though generally more upscale and with more single-family houses as opposed to apartments. Orange is *very* upscale; don't let the commercial strip along the Post Road (US 1) fool you, most of the town consists of expensive houses on large lots.
As for New Haven itself, I'd be inclined to stay away. Yes, there are trendy sections around Yale, but most of the city is quite poor with a high crime rate.
Well, with East Haven being a short distance away, maybe you could arrange for temporary housing in 6688 or 1689 :)
--Mark
I thought this link was interesting.
http://www.nationalreview.com/dissent/dissent052400b.html
It was posted today on their website by Paul Wyerich, who if you don't know, has been one of the leaders of the far-right movement for the last 20 years. If he comes out for public rail programs (he must like Metrorail in DC), maybe there's hope yet some of the other politicians will finally see the light.
Paul was a contributor (if not more) of The New Electric Railway Journal. This publication ceased publication last year.
Thanks Todd, I didn't know that.
(BTW -- You got a complement a couple of days ago at the New York Radio message board about dropping those Weather Channel reports on WCBS and putting you on more)
The magazine is now on line at trolleycar.org
Yeah, I saw that post. Nice to see, but not likely to happen. I think they have a multi-year contract. At any rate, I have a "day job" and can't work 7 days a week anymore (been there... done that). Memorial Day is the next stop for Transit and Weather Together.
Back on topic: The New Electric Railway Journal was a huge supporter of mass transit. Too bad it went under. I think part of the problem was the high production costs. The good news is that there was a spin-off electronic edition, which subsequently had a change in "ownership" but still exists. When I get the June issue on or about the first of the month, I'll post the URL for anyone who wishes to subscribe (there is a small cost).
I'm conservative and I certainly back mass transit!
But in general you don't see these views get a public airing from a conservative magazine like the National Review. The stereotpyical response is usually the one voiced by Republican House Whip Tom DeLay last week when he pretty much scuttled a light rail proposal for Houston because he considers it a waste of money.
If you have ever been on Loop 610 in Houston, this city needs some kind of mass transit system as much as any place else in the U.S. (Houston being the city that decided the best use for their old railroad station was as the left field wall for the Astros' new ballpark). Bbut DeLay just follows the standard anti-government spending line the GOP leadership has stuck with for years -- unless its for funding Interstate 69 to run through Houston from Brownsville to Indianapolis, of course.
My point was if Wyerich's article helps makes it safe for conservatives in Congress to actually support mass transit without being seen by other conservatives as "pork-barrel" spenders, so much the better.
The way to get conservatives to back mass transit is to say that if you raise the cost of driving, and provide low-quality mass transit as an alternative, poor and working people will be forced out of their cars, leaving more room on the road for ultimate driving machines.
I once read a book "Great Planning Disasters" which described BART as one. It was created with overwhelming support, but ridership fell way short of expectations. Why? It was sold as a cure for traffic congestion -- ie. the OTHER guy would stop driving.
Ditto for me as well. Who comes up with these ridiculous assertions that Conservatives are against mass transit anyway? Does that mean that liberals are for mass transit. I can see it now---Hillary becomes a big mass transit afficiando and pushes for the 2nd Avenue subway. Dream on.
05/26/2000
[I can see it now---Hillary becomes a big mass transit afficiando and pushes for the 2nd Avenue subway. Dream on.]
I know this sounds like I am resurrecting an old post, but Hillary Ramrod Clinton won't be caught riding the subways unless she's stomping for votes. She won't get mine !!
Bill "Newkirk"
Good show Bill! But I can't figure out why anyone would NOT want to ride the subway. It's fun, fast for the most part, and you meet the strangest people on it. If you're like me, you ride in the front and get to gabbing with the motorman, most of whom are friendly. When I introduced myself last summer and asked the motorman to shake hands with the Sea Beach Man, he smiled and gave me a good shake. I swear if I was a millionaire I would still ride the subway any chance I got. I've ridden on seven subway systems and I enjoy all of them, but the New York one is my favorite. Something to do with nostalgia and being a kid again.
Me too.. even if a ride at the railfan window isn't done every trip. The train gets most people to the city in 30 minutes give or take 10; so why sit in traffic and get frustrated. Besides there's always a young lady or two to improve the interior scenery. The highest cab fare or limousine ride won/t make things move faster. Right again on NYC..as much as I love Chicago and appreciate a lot of other systems New York has to be number one, although London comes close!
Conservatives are not 100% anti-rail transit. The Free Congress Foundation, of which Paul Wyerich is a principal, if not a founder were the originator of The New Electric Railway Journal, and have recently resurected it as The New New Electric Railway Journal. The web address is http://trolleycar.org and it's housed on the Free Congress Webserver. Nice to see it back. There is a place and a voice for conservatives who support mass rail and electric transit.
(There is a place and a voice for conservatives who support mass rail and electric transit).
There are different types of conservatives. One type is a free-market conservative that believes the private sector produces and distributes goods and services more efficiently (likely) and fairly (not always) than the government.
A free market conservative may believe that if all the subsidies (taxpayer financed roads on free and tax-free land) and externalities (pollution) could be removed, transit would be competitive.
Whats the difference between a Conservative and a Libertarian?
A conservative (like me) is narrow minded towards values of 40 and more years ago. usually right wingers or right leaning. A LIBERAL is narrow minded toward modern causes, social change, and things many people considered unacceptable in the 60's now a way of life. They usually lean left. A Libertarian is different again: they believe people should be able to live and let live in any lifestyle they please (hopefully they don't mean a life of crime or living off the state).A good theory if you can make it work. Like a friend told me once there's idealism that everyone should have the same benefits of life equally and then there's reality.
The definitions you mention for conservative and liberal, while they are the true meanings, are obsolete. You have many conservatives who want change, and liberals against it. It has more to do with what you support. Under your definition, I would be so to the left of the spectrum I'd fall off. Under the modern definition, that is obviously not true.
A Conservative believes in low taxes, strong national defense, more state and local con trol and balanced budgets (unless you're Reagan and want to bringdown the Soviet Union, which he certainly helped in a big way to bring down) We also believe in less government and more individual initiative. Liberals, for the most part, have believed in just the opposite over the years since the late 60's. As far as balanced budgets under Clinton, remember the President was writing potential budgets in the mid 90's that had deficits until 2002, big ones, too, in the 200-300 billion range. It was when the Republicans took over Congress that all this changed. The libs don;t want to admit this but the Congressional budget office can verify it.
While the Republican party deserves a good deal of credit for pushing the balanced budget, the actual events and motivations are more complex than what you've described here. Ronald Reagan cut taxes and social spending, and increased the military budget, and that resulted in record deficits. His successor had to pay the piper; after lying about not raising taxes, he had to agree to a tax hike to keep the deficit from ballooning even faster. Clinton promised a balanced budget and a tax cut for the middle class, something neither Democratic nor Republican presidents had delivered in many years, but as you point out his initial programs included deficit spending. When the Republican Congress took over, it sought massive tax cuts for the rich, small tax cuts for the middle class, and more cuts in social spending. Clinton drew the line at a small tax cut and smaller cuts in social spending. The result was a compromise that significantly reduced funding for the welfare state, but didn't effectively close down the EPA, the DOE, or the NIH.
Make of that what you will, but it seems to me that in truth the Republican definition of deficit spending is money that Democrats want to spend and vice versa, and I think it's important to seperate what the politicians on both sides of the aisle say from what they actually do.
"DOE"
Department of Energy or Department of Education?
Actually, I think they tried to get rid of both . . .
But which one were you talking about?
I was thinking about the Department of Education--I'd forgotten about the Department of Energy bit until you mentioned it.
[The definitions you mention for conservative and liberal, while they are the true meanings, are obsolete. You have many conservatives who want change, and liberals against it. It has more to do with what you support. Under your definition, I would be so to the left of the spectrum I'd fall off. Under the modern definition, that is obviously not true.]
I think it has to do with the direction you want to go in, not whether you want change. Othewrise, they're relative terms, which depend on the current political situation. Old guard Russian communists are generally referred to as conservatives, while Russian free marketers are called liberals. In the 18th Century, the term liberal was applied to someone who was in favor of free trade and bourgeois democracy, while a conservative favored monarchy and such.
In the long run, liberals are more likely to have their way. Doesn't mean they're always right or the new way is always better, just that in a world that is changing rapidly they're more likely to catch a train!
(Whats the difference between a Conservative and a Libertarian?)
A conservative is someone who believes the government should get off the backs of good people like themselves, and control other people who are not like themselves.
So is a liberal.
A libertarian is liberal who was mugged by a co-op board (or, for those non-NYC people, a homeowner's association).
A libertarian is liberal who was mugged by a co-op board (or, for those non-NYC people, a homeowner's association).
An interesting analogy. I've been "mugged" by a homeowner's association more than once, but I'm not sure I would consider myself a libertarian, and I'm certainly not a liberal. On the other hand, I don't consider myself a strict conservative either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just returned from a vacation in Toronto. I used the subway extensively, and found it to be extremely clean and reliable.
Granted, it is tiny by New York Standards. But scratching windows does not seem to be anybodys occupation, nor does throwing chewed gum and assorted other garbage on the platform seem to be the norm.
Comments please.
The problem of vandalism is not terribly large to begin with, and the TTC does their best to make it look as though people don't scratch on the windows or make messes on the platforms. Graffitti is removed from surfaces, scratched window panes are replaced, all promptly, and stations are cleaned thoroughly and regularly as well as given extra cleaning when in need of it. All of this is done, so that vandals aren't encouraged by the traces of other vandalism.
However, people do graffitti, scratch on window glass, and through junk on the platforms, but the evidence of it having happened is quickly removed. By far, Yonge and Bloor is the worst station, as it sees the most traffic with people changing lines, and quite often you'll find little round things that once were pieces of chewing gum embedded on the stairs, since they're difficult to clean, and on the busier areas of the platform. The TTC does their best, but they can't catch everything.
On the other hand, I've noticed quite an improvement take place recently on the streetcars. The TTC has become much better at removing the black squiggles written in wide marker on the interior surfaces of the rear doors on streetcars...
-Robert King (from Toronto)
Even with a 'small' subway system, Toronto is an example which other transit operations would do well to follow. On a visit there last summer (my third in the past 15 years), I still found the system impeccably clean and safe, and it still amazes me that it isn't worth running for a bus or streetcar since there's always another one in sight on the major lines. My only disappointment remains with the withdrawl of trackless trolleys.
I don't have anything to add to this topic but this makes four Robert/Bob posters in a row! How about Rob from Atlanta, chuchubob, #1Brighton Exp Bob, and Bob D. :-)
My god, I was about to say the same thing!
And of course, I broke the series.
Ok, might as well keep the pattern. I've to Toronto three times and I think the subway there is excellent. The trains are frequent and clean. When I think about it, I think they play classical music in the stations. Am I just trippin', or do they? I makes the atmosphere very pleasant. I know they do this on MARTA.
Ok, might as well keep the pattern. I've to Toronto three times and I think the subway there is excellent. The trains are frequent and clean. When I think about it, I think they play classical music in the stations. Am I just trippin', or do they?
The TTC uses classical music and, if need be, opera in some high-crime stations to deter high-school scum from loitering during the pm rush.
CH.
[The TTC uses classical music and, if need be, opera in some high-crime stations to deter high-school scum from loitering during the pm rush. ]
And it works?
Arti
[The TTC uses classical music and, if need be, opera, in some high-crime stations to deter high-school scum from loitering during the pm rush. ]
And it works?
The latest news I have (which is, admittedly, dated) is that the practice has been very successful in reducing both the loitering problem and the in-station crime rate.
I'd skeptical about the value of classical music for loitering control in NY, though. The thugs you have down there seem far more brazen than the thugs we have up here.
CH.
Classical music is played in the Port Authority Bus Terminal at 42d & 8th, and has been since about 1995. Seems to be working there, with the help of increased police patrolling.
WOW! I guess other people my age are STUPID.*
Classical music would only make me want to loiter someplace MORE.
*-Does not apply to everyone.
Classical music would only make me want to loiter someplace MORE.
It's a sad commentary on the justice system that the high-school scum are more afraid of Vivaldi and Beethoven than winding up in court for loitering and/or whatever else they happened to be doing.
CH.
Well, High School scum are not afraid of landing a court date for breaking the rules. I highly doubt that they are a fraid of Beethoven, Vivaldi (one of my favourites) or any of the other classical composers either. More than anything else, they probably find classical music annoying, unlike signs stating the rules.
I must say I do prefer good buskers playing in the stations to classical music fed over the PA system, which does a very poor job of reproducing music.
-Robert King
what are the rules there about photography ???.......& shooting vidieos
[ what are the rules there about photography ???.......& shooting vidieos ]
I'm sure they don't mind. (I am, of course, assuming that by "vidieos" you mean "videos")
........if I am looking for some comedy I will get out some of my old red fox albums and listen to them........
Everybody here is disappointed/annoyed/angry/infuriated with the cancellation of electric buses.
The TTC just had a staff report done on how to decrease their dependence on fossil fuels, and it mentioned electric buses but it brushed that option aside for various reasons, primarily the costs associated with constructing new electric bus infrastructure and buying new electric buses themselves. For something that was officially "mothballed", to use the TTC's phrase from the time it happened, they did a rather good job of permanently removing electric buses.
Also, this is right when the electricity utilities are about to be deregulated, and one would think a large consumer of electricity such as the TTC would be able to negotiate a very good price too, which would obviously benefit electric buses, as well as the streetcar and subways, and reduce operating costs.
Oh well, at least we still have the streetcars.
-Robert King
There were a number of streets that had streetcar trackage, but there was no streetcar service on them (Adelaide St comes to mind, I believe). Are these tracks going to see service again?
--Mark
Adelaide, Parliament, Wellington, etc. have track but don't have service on them because they are one way streets, that used to be two way streets, prior to the opening of the Yonge subway. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other streets with track and wire that aren't used, besides Dufferin.
Adelaide in fact does have some regular streetcar service, for all of one block between Charlotte street and Spadina, which is used by the 510 King streetcars on Spadina which turn around via the on street loop comprising of:
South from Spadina station to Adelaide
East on Adelaide to Charlotte
South on Charlotte to King (where the last stop for 510 King cars is)
West on King to Spadina
North on Spadina, back to Spadina station.
My webpage has a good description of the Spadina streetcar, including the 510 King short turn service, with pictures (2 nice night photos of a streetcar on Charlotte st.)
It's http://members.xoom.com/wobit
-Robert King
There is lots of TTC trackage that is not used for scheduled routes, but is often used for short turns.
Here are some examples:
501 Shaw - Cars travel shouth on Shaw from Queen to King, then north up Dufferin.
504 Parliament
Cars often use Parliament from King to Dundas if they are turning at Parliament
504 Church - Church north to Richmond, Richmond east to Victoria, Victoria north to Queen, Queen west to Church and back down to King. This loop is also used 7 times daily for the 508 car. Note, cars often lay over on Richmond just past Church.
504 Dufferin - cars head south down Dufferin from King to loop just outside the Exhibition gates.
506 Queen and Coxwell - 506 Cars short turning at Coxwell or heading back to Russell carhouse go south on Coxwell from Gerrard to Queen.
512 Roncesvalles - 512 cars coming in and out of service use the track on Bathurst between King and St. Clair. From Bloor to St. Clair the 512 cars coming in or out of service provide the only streetcar service. Main service is provided by the 7 Bus.
There are tracks that are seldom used - Bay St. from Dundas to College, Ossington from Dundas to College and McCaul from north of the 502 loop to College. These tracks are used for occasional short turns though.
There are also tracks that are never used. There are "wrong way" tracks on streets that have been one way since the 1960s. York, Wellington, Adealaide and Richomond streets all have wrong way trackage with wires still in tact.
Even the right way tracks on Adelaide seem to be in jeopardy though. They are currently out of service between Charlotte st. and Victoria and they were used so seldomly, it is questionable whether the TTC will bring them back to life.
Had I more time during this trip, I probably would have caufht some of the short turn streetcar lines. I focused in on some of the main lines, but didn't cover them all. That's something for me to look forward to next year :)
--Mark
The 510 from Spadina Station to Union Station was a great ride. All of it is in ROW separated from auto traffic with its own signals that, at times, seemed to preempt the signalling for autos.
I didn't ride the short-turn 510s because of time constraints.
The 510 is highly recommended if you go for a visit.
--Mark
Well, TTC must be doing a great job because I was also there for a week last week, and didn't see ANY evidence of any type of vandalism whatsoever, not on the streecars, not on the trains, nor on any of the GM "new look" buses I got to ride. Very clean. Service very frequent.
I was videotaping the University-Spadina line from Eglinton West northward to about the Yorkdale Mall. I must have used every overpass in between. This was on a Sunday between 6pm and 8:30pm and service was every 5 minutes.
--Mark
I know the last person anyone wants to hear from is another Rob...
The TTC had a problem with Scratchitti recently on the subway and made an effort to replace the scratched plexi-glass ASAP. It turns out only a handful of people were causing widespread damage (surprise).
Even though Toronto only has two subway lines (plus the SRT but that's really not a subway line is it?) - the TTC has the thrid most subway passengers in North America after NYC and Chicago, according to published reports in the Toronto Star.
The subway lines are well used and provide very frequent service 20 hours a day.
The greatest downfall (other than the ugly stations) is that they do not go far enough.
The subway in Toronto is also bad for railfanning. But that's another story.
......what is thier policy on photography and shooting vidieos etc....??......next time I am in detroit i want to go there ..!!
The subway in Toronto is also bad for railfanning. But that's another story.
It is? Why? I've made two trips, one shooting the cab ride on both lines and the other for runbys. No problems. Train operators very happily answered my questions (difference between amber and flashing red aspect, for example). Last year, I met up with a bus dispatcher who, after telling him I was from NY, took me up to the not-in-use tower at Davisville for some pictures.
--Mark
It depends.
Should a driver panic and send those vicious "TTC SPECIAL CONSTABLE"s after you, they can be quite a mess to contend with. One person I know calls them Storm Troopers, and with good reason. They are essentialy Rent-a-cops as privately hired security are politely known, or, more accurately in some cases, hired thugs. They did a good job on damaging the gears in the manually cranked rewind mechanism of my camera, after I had taken pictures of a subway train at Davisville.
Generally, they don't seem to be aware of the photography guidelines contanied in the TTC bylaws posted in every vehicle (on the back exterior wall of the driver's cab on the subway cars).
-Robert King
Generally, they don't seem to be aware of the photography guidelines contanied in the TTC bylaws posted in every vehicle (on the back exterior wall of the driver's cab on the subway cars).
Yep, seen that myself.
--Mark
I think the subway is bad for railfanning due to the design.
There is a wall between each side of the tunnel so you can't see approaching trains passing.
The stations are not only bland but very poor for photography. There are the iron beams and low rooves in most stations so you can't get a good view of the trains on the other side.
The equipment is also very boring. There are soon to be only three models of subway car left - all of which are boring.
BUT - the most important part is how the subway is run. It is frequent and very well used. The TTC is improving the service levels so the longest scheduled headways EVER are 5 minutes - even at 1am. The lines also stretch from side to side of the city and the bus streetcar transfers are very well designed.
And all of that is more important than good railfanning... but it would be nice to have cake and eat it too.
Your points are valid. But if you know where to look, there are some mighty fine shots to be had. I guess you have to be willing to EXIT the system.
For instance, all the overpasses just north of Davisville. The overpass just south of Davisville over the yard there (connecting to Mount Pleasant cemetary). The open area between Rosedale and Bloor. There's a parking garage just outside of the Ellis(?) portal that has a great perch for photos. You just have to time it right and listen real carefully for a northbound Yonge train leaving Bloor. Indoors, the Bloor/Yonge platform is very wide, you can see across to the other track and I got some good shots in there. There's a long crossover switch just east of St George. The architecture of the St Patrick & Queens Park stations is right out of the London Underground. There are other good spots along the Bloor/Danforth line, but the exact station names escape me at the moment (and viewing the TTC's map on their site isn't showing me actual station names in their PDF file).
--Mark
The Toronto Subway theory is: everyone takes a straight-line bus to one of the two main routes in the city Yonge (N/S)or Bloor (or Danforth) (E/W). Then the subway takes you the major part of the trip. And the subway runs always at worst every 5 minutes. There are few surface routes into downtown Toronto (just Bay St. and the crosstown streetcars).
The University line was added to effectively double the capacity of the Yonge line, which Bloor/Danforth people needed to transfer to. The Spadina extension was built in place of the Allen expressway (which was built north of Eglinton only).
Philadelphia and Montreal have similar "spine" systems (except the Philadelphia trains don't run often enough except in rush hour).
"There are few surface routes into downtown Toronto"
To take pressure off the subways, the TTC has a few rush hour "premium express" buses, that take people directly downtown from the Beach, Flemmington Park, Avenue Rd and Mt. Pleasant.
These routes are numbered in the 140s and cost two fares.
There are also other routes that run into downtown - Sherbourne, Spadina, Bathurst, Yonge and Wellesley come to mind but your point is well taken.
People traveling from the outer parts of the city will take a bus to the subway and the subway in, rather than taking a direct bus. The subway is fast and frequent as noted - and the transfers are convenient (in station).
I was up there last May and must agree. the one thing that surprised me however, were the end doors on their cars -- they have NO locks whatsoever. Anybody want to picture what would happen here in NYC if the front and rear door of a train were to be left unlocked? When I queried TTC supervision about it, they said,"Oh no one does that. They'll get a ticket if they do." The cost of said ticket --$53.00 Canadian!
In all honesty, I'm not really sure if they were joking about the cost of the ticket. After all, these were the same guys who heard we here in NYC hit so many people with our trains that we just roll them under the platform until the midnight hours when we collect the bodies. This from a system that claims an average of 35 hit by train accidents a month (again, told to me by the same members of supervision).
Chao-Hwa, this is a really nice picture of a family of ducks, but why is it on your railroad websitefull of AEM7s and subways? Where did you take it?
-Daniel
They are the statues of Ducklings at Boston Common in Boston. I took it two years ago. I intended to post it to my friends, but I forgot to delete it. So it is still there, sitting with locomotives and subway cars. :)
Chaohwa
The ducks are a sculpture in bronze, honoring Robert McCloskey's classic story Make Way For Ducklings. The story took place in Boston, among the swan boats on the Common, and also on the Charles River. The statue is located on the Boston Common.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well it does look sort of like a train (of ducks)! 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
Yesterday I was walking through Suburban Station to get the El. As I usually do, I checked the schedule kiosks to check for anything new or updated. What I found there was most unusual.
On the bottom row of schedules taking up each slot in the row were bus and light rail schedules for the Pittsburgh and St. Louis transit systems. I did a double take when I first saw them, thinking SEPTA radically changed their schedules but when I looked closer, I saw the Gold Port Authority logo and the schedule for the 42L, which I knew was a light rail line in Pittsburgh. Then I saw the less stylish St. Louis Bi-State schedules. I grabbed a bunch and looked at them at home, wondering what they were doing in Philadelphia.
At least I know what time the bus to 41A leaves...
Sounds like some railfan's idea of a practical joke.
Remind me to pick up a few handfulls of CTA and Metra maps and timetables before I leave for Boston. :-)
(BTW, three days to go... I pack up and leave on Saturday.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, have a safe trip - from the Windy City to Beantown, guess that means you'll be trading one kind of wind for another :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, given that Chicago's nickname was actually given to us by arrogant New Yorkers as a response our politicians' civic boosterism during the 1893 World Columbian Exposition, it looks I'll merely be trading one form of hot air for another. :-)
Not to mention:
Trading the L for the T...
Trading one mediocre baseball team for another...
Trading the John Hancock Center for the John Hancock Tower...
Trading bitter-cold winters and sweltering summers for, umm, bitter-cold winters and sweltering summers...
Trading one family of corrupt Democrats (Daley) for another family of corrupt Democrats (Kennedy)...
Trading excessive fees at Bank One for excessive fees at FleetBoston...
Couldn't I just stay here and pretend I'm in Boston? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Can anybody tell I'm already homesick?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The biggest advantage of Northeast cities vs. Chicago is outside the city, not in it. We've got an ocean and mountains, not flat cornfields. And you can get to some of them by rail and bus.
Then again, I've heard northern Michigan is worth a look, and there at least used to be boats up the lake.
I've heard northern Michigan is worth a look.
So it is alleged, by my wife (a native thereof) and others. My opinion? I didn't lose anything there, I don't need to go back and find it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[[I've heard northern Michigan is worth a look.]
[So it is alleged, by my wife (a native thereof) and others. My opinion? I didn't lose anything there, I don't need to go back and
find it.]
You'd better not let her know about your lack of enthusiasm. Yoopers are a *very* proud bunch, and they don't take kindly to criticism. You have been warned :-)
Oh, she knows! I did pay a brief visit to the state last December (got up as far as Cadillac, where my mother-in-law lives) but that was my first trip there since '93. She goes back every year for a week or two to see her sister.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, you are getting the team Sports Illustrated picked to win the Series, their first in 82 years, a team tied with the Bombers for first place going into a showdown Memorial weeekend series, and a team with the best pitcher in baseball...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If their World Series opponent is the Chicago Cubs, then I'll get excited. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, the real baseball team in Chicago is doing really well this year. I don't consider teams that are adored for losing real teams.
There are basically two routes left in Pittsburgh, the 42S , South Hills Village via. Beechview, & the 42L , Library via. Beechview.
I rode on a charter and covered both of these about 6 years ago?
The Drake and Overbrook lines, which use PCC's are gone. They may rebuild the Overbrook line for LRV's in the future. The Seimens-Duwag
cars run fairly well on the 2 routes.
Chuck Greene
Exactly what happened to the last three running PCCs that PAT had?
Did they keep any for charter use, especially since they were already equipped with pantographs, and weren't a problem in the subway, especially since most (if not all, unless I'm wrong) stations were constructed with a two level platform, with a short low area for the PCCs to pull in at?
If none were kept in Pittsburgh, hopefully they ended up at good homes in streetcar museums.
-Robert King
One car, 4004, as been preserved by PAT for Arden. It will be stored at South Hills Village until Arden is ready to receive it. At this point the status of the other two cars is uncertain.
Well I stopped by Market East on Tuesday to get a schedule for a bus that could take me from Bala Cwnyd to the Overbrook station on City Line. Well I determined that I needed the #65 bus, but when I went for the timetable they were all out. And they were like only out of 3 routes.
In South Station in Boston, they have LIRR schedules. I do not know if anyone ever takes any, gut they're there.
All of the schedules, or just the Montauk branch (Teal color)? I remember a while back seeing a thing of Montauk schedules in either 30st station Philadelphia, or Washington D.C. Union Station (Can't remember which!).
Hi Railfans, The New York City Subway Club now supports voice chat. Invite all your railfan friends and have a live voice chat anytime you want. Discuss your favorite rail topics. All you need is a microphone and speakers and your all set to go. Just type http://www.dotplanet.com/groups/default.asp?gid=13714 into your browser. Enter registration # 290EA and your a member. Chat anytime you like, 24 hrs. a day. It may be slow in the begining because it's new, but once it gets going and people find out about it, it will take off. Don't forget to make the page a favorite so that you can access it with one click. Send your comments and suggestions to Motorinstructor@yahoo.com.
There is STILL something wrong with you web site address as I can't link to it (several other failed previously).
I will in town on Friday, and need to be reminded about the current car assignments....slant40s where? Old Redbirds still on the 5?? Thanks folks!!
Slant R40: Mostly on the "Q", but there's no "Q" service on the
weekend. Also about half of the fleet of the "L" are Slants. You may also see a rare one on the "N". Weekends, two consists prowl the "B".
R38: Neat railfan window view on the "A" and "C" lines. Sometimes you'll get a jackrabbit.
Redbird assignments:
R26, R28: #5 line
R29: #5, #6
R33: #2 (singles on #7)
R36: #7, #6 (R36 mainline, some WF cars)
wayne
What were the names of the current MTA trackage and lines that used to be former LIRR ROWS. I know of the A line. I heard some history of the Cluver line. Is that too a former ROW too?
The lines curves sharply to the west to the CI terminal. Did the line ever turn out to the east to Manhattan Beach?
Yes, but it wasn't in connection with the Culver Line. The Manhattan Beach Branch of the LIRR acutally branched off of the Bay Ridge Line. The trackage for Manhattan Beach left the Bay Ridge in a wide sweeping curve at approximately Ave. H and E. 16th Street. The Line shared an earthen embankment with the Brighton Beach Line up until 1924, when the LIRR decided to cancel passenger service on the branch (too much commpetition from the Brighton, which made similar stops to that of the Manhattan Beach).
The remnants of the Manhattan Beach branch can be seen along E. 16th Street at some of the street crossings in the Homecrest & Sheepshead Bay neighborhoods. You will find a larger than normal retaining wall for the Brighton -- the empty areas indicate the location of the former LIRR roadbed.
Doug aka BMTman
There is also an apartment building on the east side of E. 17th St between Avenue I and the Bay Ridge LIRR with a curved side, as well as a curved property line behind some houses on the west side of E. 17th St. south of Avenue I, both of which clearly delineate the route of the connecting track.
Bob Sklar
In anticipation of the upcoming holiday, I couldn't help but remember a Decoration Day right after WWII. As a pre-teen, my dad and I were waiting for a train at the Knickerbocker Ave station. The next train (I think it was a 600 series BU) had a small American flag on a stick wired to the front right gate stanchion. The flag was flapping in the breeze as the train entered the station.
I asked my dad about it, and he said that the motorman was probably feeling very patriotic. Seeing our flag on the front of the train sure made a lasting impression on me.
I don't imagine any of you New York transit buffs will see any American flags wired to the pantagraphs of the trains this upcoming holiday.
[In anticipation of the upcoming holiday, I couldn't help but remember a Decoration Day right after WWII. As a pre-teen, my dad and I were waiting for a train at the Knickerbocker Ave station. The next train (I think it was a 600 series BU) had a small American flag on a stick wired to the front right gate stanchion. The flag was flapping in the breeze as the train entered the station.
I asked my dad about it, and he said that the motorman was probably feeling very patriotic. Seeing our flag on the front of the train sure made a lasting impression on me.
I don't imagine any of you New York transit buffs will see any American flags wired to the pantagraphs of the trains this upcoming holiday.]
I certainly don't expect to see any. In fact, fewer and fewer people seem to think of Memorial Day as a day to honor the natin's war dead. Today it's basically become a date to mark the beginning of summer (similar to the way Labor Day has become the end-of-summer marker). I think this is a regretful development.
I have gotten used to the use of the name Memorial Day, even though I still refer to it as Decoration Day.
The thing I can't get used to is that it is no longer always on May 30. They seem to move it around to the nearest Friday or Monday, just to create a long weekend.
It's always the last Monday in May. Never a Friday.
-dAve
Monday or not Dave, I can understand where Karl is coming from. Decoration or Memorial Day was always May 30 until some political dorks changed it around. As a kid there used to be double-headers in New York on Mamorial Day, as well as July 4, and Labor Day. Sometimes changes leave you sad even thought you know that changes have to come.
That Dork was your Buddy from Whittier Tricky Dicky Nixon in 69
The nerve of him. Imagine Tricky Dick doing that? I guess there are some bad Republicans around. Boy, it didn't take you long to get warmed up again. Salaam will be on the lookout.
Since I don't have a sound card, I can only guess at what was on that bit. One of these, perhaps?:
1. "I'm glad you asked that question."
2. "Well, I'm not a crook."
3. "You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore."
4. "Sock it to ME?" (Yes, he did make a cameo on Laugh-in.)
5. None of the above
It's 2.
How could anyone not have a sound card?
I'm glad you asked that question.:-) My company is into compulsive pennypinching.
[I guess there are some bad Republicans around.]
Duh! There are much more than just "some" bad Republicans! (:-)
One very memorable Memorial Day doubleheader in NY took place in 1964 betwen the Mets and Giants at Shea. The nightcap went 23 innings with a paid crowd in excess of 57,000. Had it gone another 20 minutes, it would have gone down as a game which started in May (it was played on May 31) and ended in June. The Mets pulled off a triple play in the top of the 14th. Willie Mays put in a few innings at shortstop. And Duke Snider, in the twilight of his career with the Giants, appeared as a pinch hitter. Hey, Fred, can you guess what number he was wearing? It wasn't 4, as that had been Mel Ott's number and the Giants had already retired it. Hint: it was a multiple of 4.
Steve: Never doubt my knowledge of baseball trivia, especially where Brooklyn Dodgers are concerned. Snider wore #28.
Ding! Ding! Ding!!
OK, here's another Snider question: what number did he wear when he first joined the Mets? Charley Neal wouldn't give up #4 - imagine that!
Monday or not Dave, I can understand where Karl is coming from. Decoration or Memorial Day was always May 30 until some political dorks changed it around. As a kid there used to be double-headers in New York on Memorial Day, as well as July 4, and Labor Day. Sometimes changes leave you sad even thought you know that changes have to come.
Political dorks, as in Congress. Congress - always beholden to special interest groups (where the soft money always is). The shifting of many national holidays to Mondays (except for Independence Day) came at the bequest of the Hotel, motel and tourism industries. The shifting of the holidays to Mondays makes for more 3-day weekends, and more money to the industries, and by inference to certain politicians.
[Political dorks, as in Congress. Congress - always beholden to special interest groups (where the soft money always is). The
shifting of many national holidays to Mondays (except for Independence Day) came at the bequest of the Hotel, motel and tourism industries. The shifting of the holidays to Mondays makes for more 3-day weekends, and more money to the industries, and by inference to certain politicians.]
Shifting Memorial Day to a Monday isn't too bad, as it doesn't commemorate a specific historical event and therefore doesn't have to fall on any particular day. Of course, Congress had to go a step further and shift Martin Luther King Day and Columbus Day (and create a specious "Presidents Day") to Mondays even though these days should be on specific dates. At least they were forced to return Veterans Day to November 11.
I just don't get the fuss about having holidays on Mondays. As far as I'm concerned, the absolute best day of the week to have off is Wednesday, as it neatly breaks up the workweek.
That's why Thanksgiving is on Thursday. Back when it was established, people worked on Saturdays, thus it offered a midweek break.
It also accomadated those who for religious beleifs could not eat meat on Fridays, at that time.
Ah, yes, the other major reason for the change was the bosses got more work out of a four day shift thsn two two's.
I think the special interst groups that wanted the change to mondays was no so much the travel industry but big business which found too much monday or friday absenteeism when a holiday fell on tuesday or thursday. They just did not have the political abilty to change Christmas, Independence Day and New Years day, or they would have changed them too. They could not change Thanksgiving day because many people already had the day after Thanksgiving as a holiday and that day was the biggest retail shopping day of the year
You are gettin old Fred, Repeating yourself again
At least no one calls Veterans Day by its original designation anymore, Armistice Day.:-)
I was in high school when Veteran's Day was moved to, IIRC, the last Monday in October. That didn't last too long.
Actually Time Magazine had an interesting article this week about Memorial Day. The suggestion was that it has/should come to symbolize memorials of other than the war dead, for instance the Holocaust, terrorist attacks like Oklahoma City, and school violence like Columbine. I think the problem is that for most people, connection to anyone who died in a war is getting further and further into the past; memories are fading. I can't think of anyone within a couple of generations of my own family that died in a war even though both my father and grandfather served (WWII and Vietnam). So why not use the day for other memorials as well.
Interesting you should mention it. I've always had a problem with Memorial Day simply because it is just a renamed Decoration Day - a day established to honor the Yankee dead from the Late Unpleasantness. We honor our dead earlier in the month - the 10th or 12th I think, I don't remember for sure since I wasn't back home in North Carolina this year - and we've always used the term Memorial Day for that holiday. So having two Memorial Days doesn't make sense to me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I lived in Louisville in the 1950's, "Confederate Memorial Day" was Jeff Davis' birthday, early June.
Perhaps it varies from state to state.
Bob
Jefferson Davis? Now that is a name from the past that could make my skin crawl.
Why? I'm quite proud of him. He was our President during the time your country invaded mine.
But anyway, enough of politics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He was the only president of a nation founded solely upon the peculiar institution.
The confederacy came into existence for no other reason, it only existed to allow one of the greatest atrocities in history to continue to exist.
Wrong. I'll not take time to debate it here, but the preservation of slavery had nothing to do with it. You only know what you have been taught, of course, and what you believe is the "politically correct" viewpoint, not the truth. As you correctly state, the "peculiar institution" was wrong, but it was not unique to the Confederacy - it was still legal in several of the northern states as well, and was not abolished there until the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment on 18 December 1865, some seven months after the war ended. Taking the discussion a bit further, if one follows the Union position that the Confederate States were always part of the Union, then that amendment was not legally ratified, since the southern states were excluded from the ratification process and it did not receive the necessary ratification by three-quarters of the states.
Regardless, the "peculiar institution" is ended now, as it should be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All you told me was that slavery existed in the north (DE, MD, KY and MO). You have failed to give me one reason why the south existed except to allow slavery to continue to exist.
I don't intend to get into a debate here on that subject. But the fundamental reasons were the same ones that drove representatives of the thirteen colonies to sign the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What representation did the south not believe it had in Washington?
Economic strangulation was the basic issue in both cases, specifically restrictive tariffs. In 1776 the tariffs and other laws forced the colonies to deal almost exclusively with England; in 1861 the tariffs forced southern producers and consumers to deal almost exclusively with northern merchants and industrialists rather than with the British and the French.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"...in 1861 the tariffs forced southern producers and consumers to deal almost exclusively with northern merchants and industrialists rather than with the British and the French."
The tariffs weren't preventing investment in railways (to keep this remotely on topic) or factories in the Southern states. The only thing preventing the rise of industry in the pre-Civil War South was that Southerners with money to invest:
1) tended to have the attitude that industry was not something a gentleman should lower himself to being involved with. The proper occupation for a gentleman was farming -- never mind that said "farm" was just as industrial and had just as much manpower as any Northern factory, only slave instead of free. (This attitude was inherited from the British, and is an odd echo of republican Rome, where no man who openly earned his living from trade or manufacture could be a senator, and therefore could not hold other high offices.) Therefore, they...
2) tended to invest their profits and savings in buying more land and slaves rather than financing factories and railways.
There were some exceptions, of course. But the tariffs did not stop the construction in the South of a single factory or a single mile of railway track. Southern attitudes did.
The best weaving machines in the world were produced in Britain. Many Southern farmers would have loved to purchase them and produce cotton cloth rather than selling the raw cotton, figuring that they could make a much greater profit that way. But the Northern industrial interests wanted to keep that profit for themselves, so Congress imposed an 800% import duty on weaving machinery, and the Northerners wouldn't sell their technology to the South except at prices that would make production of cloth unprofitable, so they were able to keep an economic stranglehold on cotton production. And that's just one example of many.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry Anon, but you are off there. Seven states had seceded before the Morill Tariff was passed in 1861. Until just a couple of months before the Republicans did not control the Congress.
John, you're a gentleman and a scholar and not a half bas historian, You are really on the mark and this US History teaches salutes you.
In todays politics, the 1860 demos would be the Republicans and Lincoln would be a Demo, the same with Teddy Roosevelt, the only 2 Good Republicans in History
Why our boys, the Republicans won and the Southern Democrats couldn't abide by that so they took their toys and went home. We went to their house and destroyed their toys,
[All you told me was that slavery existed in the north (DE, MD, KY and MO).]
If you go back not too many years before the Civil War, slavery existed in many if not most of the "northern" states - not just the border ones. New York had slaves as late as the first couple decades of the 1800's. I believe Ohio and Pennsylvania had slaves even longer.
At the time of the revolution, slavery was legal in every state. New York was the last Northern (as opposed to Southern or Border) state to abandon slavery. This was in 1820.
You sure? I thought it was in 1799. I know New Jersey abolished it in 1804, and until I heard it from you I believed NJ was the last Northern state to abolish it. I'm sure I'm right, but let's both check up. At least we know that our side was the good guys and Anon's was the bad guys. But remember this, Anon is a good guy and all this is done in fun.
Why are we fighting it here, and now? I thought this board was for talking about rail transit, especially in New York City.
If you people want to talk about the Civil War, fine. It's actually pretty interesting conversation. But it doesn't belong here. Please do us a favor and take it to e-mail.
Thank you.
David
(rant mode off)
We're both right:
At http://www.brooklynhistory.org/time.htm:
1799 A system for the gradual emancipation of slaves is begun in New York State. Brooklyn's first newspaper, the Long Island Courier, is published.
So the law to end slavery was passed in 1799, but it was only completed in 20 years.
Actually, only you were right:
On the same page:
1827 The Village of Willamsburg is incorporated within the Town of Bushwick. Slavery is abolished in New York State. Weeksville is settled by free African Americans.
It still makes it the last northern state, even more so!
Actually, only you were right:
On the same page:
1827 The Village of Willamsburg is incorporated within the Town of Bushwick. Slavery is abolished in New York State. Weeksville is settled by free African Americans.
It still makes it the last northern state, even more so!
Actually, only you were right:
On the same page:
1827 The Village of Willamsburg is incorporated within the Town of Bushwick. Slavery is abolished in New York State. Weeksville is settled by free African Americans.
It still makes it the last northern state, even more so!
[At the time of the revolution, slavery was legal in every state. New York was the last Northern (as opposed to Southern or Border) state to abandon slavery. This was in 1820.]
Huh? We abandoned slavery? Hear that, Rufus? You can go!
But our boys Lincoln, Grant and Sherman ended that garbage. We won and Anon's boys lost.
But the best General was stll Lee
So in other words you are not American And think of the United States as occupying your country the way Germany occupied most of the countries of Europe.
I wouldn't go to that extreme - we're all in it together now, like it or not - but I do cherish and honor the memory of my ancestors who died for their country, on both sides of that terrible war.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I wouldn't go to that extreme - we're all in it together now, like it or not - but I do cherish and honor the memory of my ancestors who died for their country, on both sides of that terrible war.]
Well, Anon, I know you seem to like the Confederacy, but think of something else. You've noted before that you are Jewish. If you were living back in the _ante bellum_ South, I doubt you would have been treated very nicely. I suspect that anti-Semitism was the common practice at the time.
Actually, I've studied that issue in some detail over the years, and I think there's more of it today in the South than there was back then, simply because there were very few Jews, and essentially all were very prosperous - merchants, lawyers, and bankers, mostly. Judah Benjamin, a lawyer from Louisiana (and former US Senator) served the Confederacy as Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State during the war, so it was no barrier to public service at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re anti-Semitism in pre-Civil War South]
[Actually, I've studied that issue in some detail over the years, and I think there's more of it today in the South than there was back then, simply because there were very few Jews, and essentially all
were very prosperous - merchants, lawyers, and bankers, mostly. Judah Benjamin, a lawyer from Louisiana (and former US Senator) served the Confederacy as Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State during the war, so it was no barrier to public service at that time.]
Something came to my mind after I made my first posting. In the novel _Sophie's Choice_ (fictional, but based in some part upon author William Styron's upbringing in 1930's and 1940's Virginia), the narrator says that Southerners always had a degree of tolerance and even respect for Jews. I don't remember whether this was attributed to any particular reason, and no longer have a copy of the book. I suppose that Southerners had no reason to get too worked up about Jews, or other ethnic groups for that matter, given their preoccupation with black/white race relations.
Southerners always had a degree of tolerance and even respect for Jews.
Right. I suspect it stems from the fact that Southerners have tended to have respect for anyone with a good education. Culturally and religiously, education has always been stressed in Jewish homes - culturally because it was our means of survival, religiously because the Torah is central to our faith and we must be able to understand it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Here is some consolation for you. The next President is going to be a Southerner. One of them is one born in the South and as phony as they come because he lived much of his life in DC; the other hails from Yankee parents but imbued himself with Southern tradition to become a great governor and a proud Southerner. This Yankee is going to vote for the latter Southerner, George W.
Fred, I am going to have to disagree with you. As a part-time student of politics, our choice in November is going to be who will do the LEAST amount of damage to the country in four years. The candidate who would have been the best for our country couldn't get the primary support from a large part of his supporters because they were registered in the wrong party. I don't really like Al, and I can't stand the Empty Suit from the Lone Star State. Not much of a choice, is it?
I'll just pick whoever has a female VP, if it's both or neither, then it becomes more complicated.
In that case, choosing Gore could have an interesting effect: It could prove that the religious right is destructive to the Republican party, but getting the RR (not the on-topic kind) out of any party is a noble endeavor.
[Anon: Here is some consolation for you. The next President is going to be a Southerner. One of them is one born in the South and as phony as they come because he lived much of his life in DC; the other hails from Yankee parents but imbued himself with Southern tradition to become a great governor and a proud Southerner. This Yankee is going to vote for the latter Southerner, George W.]
Whta makes you think Bush isn't a phony? Not that Al Gore is a model of rectitude, but Bush repeatedly lied about McCain during the primary.
The word from Washington people (try Richard Nixon!) is that Al Gore is solid and impressive when he's not making a fool of himself on the campaign trail. Bush is a better campaigner and seems a decent guy who seems to share his father's unfortunate willingness to make moral compromises when it's time to get elected. And neither Bush--the son of a president and the head of the Republican Party, for Heaven's sake!--nor Gore are Washington outsiders in any respect. The fact that Bush, in one of his periodic flip flops, has characterized himself as an "outsider" and a "reformer" is itself a measure of the man. At least he was being honest when he described himself as a "fairly good retail politician." Read my lips, that vision thing?
Sarge, I knew it might lead this. Anon is a proud transplanted Southerner and I know of some friends of mine, like my brother, who moved to the South and became Southern in spirit. It is just natural to take up their lost cause once you become one of them. That's why I would never live in the South.
Sorry Anon, but yours was not a country but a province in rebellion and we put it down good and proper. BTW, I carry a picture of Lincoln in my wallet. He is my all time historical hero.
[BTW, I carry a picture of Lincoln in my wallet. He is my all time historical hero.]
I have a couple of pictures of Lincoln in my wallet too. Of course, I'd rather have pictures of Grant and Franklin :-)
Of, for that matter, McKinley or Cleveland.:-) Except those bills are out of print.
Franklin is OK. I used to like him a lot better but those new bills are ugly man. Pete likes Franklin either way and I do set aside a few of those for emergency occurances but try and cash a Grant. Everyone looks at you like you're from a strange planet. And most of those stores say they can't any bills over $20.00. Yet for some reason, when I do cash a Franklin, they look at me in awe, like I'm some high roller. Little to they know that when I have to resort to that it is just before payday and I'm really tapped out.
Well, now the only old bill is $1, all of the others are ugly.
The Federal Government still wants to stop printing ones and print new twos, they should start printing new twos NOW! Canada, when they began the dollar coin, at the same time stopped making ones and started making twos.
More recently, they started making two dollar coins and stopped making even the two dollar bills.
You may say that Canadian money is worth less (not worthless, that's a completely different discussion) and they can get away with $2. Just like those carnival games there cost $2 and here they cost $1. European printed/minted currency, which will begin circulation in January, has no bill under €5, there will be €1 and €2 coins.
There are Series 1995 $2 bills in existence. I have a badly rumpled one. The Treasury must have run out of Series 1976 notes.
Some stores won't accept large bills for fear of counterfeits. Others aren't required to accept anything larger than a twenty, but will if they have sufficient change. When I worked as a gate cashier at Lakeside Park in Denver, the latter rule applied. If a customer pulled up with a fifty or hundred, I would explain that I could break his Grant or Franklin this time, but may not be able to next time. On one occasion, a customer paid for his admission with a Grant, which I was able to break, and a few hours later, another customer paid with a Franklin. I included the Grant in his change, and after his car pulled away, I remarked this was like playing Monopoly.
Back in the days of the 20-cent fare, there used to be a notice on token booths which stated, "RR clerks are not required to change bills larger than $5.00."
I knew I liked you from Day One Pete. Good Man. Nice to know there are some other Lincoln fans on this site. If you want Grant and Franklin, I'm sure there are some around. Franklin? I guess he's ok.
Lincoln is certainly better than Washington or Jefferson, but not as good as Hamilton, Jackson, Grant, Franklin, McKinley, Cleveland, Madison or Chase.
Or Wilson.
When you knock Lincoln it is worse than knocking the Sea Beach or the Mets. So you guys had better watch out because you're getting The Kid mad.
I always try to carry Lincoln in my wallet, I want at least 5 dollars there all the time
You mean the Great and Unsuccessful Disgusting Rebellion, don't you? Your friends were traitors who wanted to bring down our consitutional government, and got the hell kicked out of you by my boy Sherman and others. There shouldn't be any Confederate memorial day of any kind since they were traitors, and no vestige of that despicable Confederate flag anywhere in sight. Other than that, you're a cool guy and I like you. Don't take it personal.
I just realized what you guys were conversing about.
Decloration Day is the rememberance of thr Declaration Of Independence in 1776. For you tar heels, there was also a Mec Dec day to commemorate the (so called) Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence, which was one of several of the 13 states (at that time) to also declare thier independence from England.
Memorial Day, May 31, was the northern commemoration of those who died in the War between the states from 1861 to 1865. That day became the national holiday superceding the Southern Memorial Day which was a day of rememberence long before the May 31 date became a popular event in the north.
However, those of us who served in the armed forces still regard Memorial Day, May 31, as a day of rememberance for of all those, who had passed before us.
The original thread was for Decoration Day which used to be celebrated every year on May 30th. In more recent times it has become known as Memorial Day, and now is celebrated on the nearest Monday to May 30th.
Check the thread, it is rather extensive, and has gotten off topic!:-)
Out here we put our flags out and fly them all day. Each home on our block has a holder for flags, but I remember 1947 for other reasons. That was the year that I became an insufferable baseball nut, even though I was only 7 years old. My father, who took me to games at the end of the war and in 1946 only to be nagged to leave, leave, leave, was shocked when I asked to go to a game. From then on hewas bugged to go, go go to Ebbets Field. My first hero was Dixie Walker, who played his last season for the Dodgers that year. He hit 306 and drove in 94 runs. Jackie Robinson was Rookie of the Year, Eddie Stanky was a great leadoff man, and Ralph Branca (that Ralph Branca) was the ace of the staff and a 21-game winner. Need I also say that on the 19th of April that year I rode the Sea Beach for the first time. Need I say more?
And the Yankees Beat the Bums 4-0 That Year Too
You're not the Yankee fan you think you are Bob. The Yankees won four games to three----they won the first and second by the scores of 5-3 and 10-3, the Dodgers took the next two 9-8 and 3-2, the Yanks the fifth 2-1, the Dodgers the sixth 8-6, and the Yankees the seventh 5-2. How;s that for a real baseball man? Get your facts straight Bob buddy. All of this from the top of my head. Impressed?
My Mistake, but then the Dodgers did not win another world series game for HOW MANY YEARS against the Yankees 8 I think when they got lucky with a bad call at home on Robinson, and Yogi to this day says he was out, and a freak catch by Amaros
Freak catch? It was a great catch, and what made it great was not that it more or less clinched it for Brooklyn, but that Amaros was never known much for his defense. For that matter, he was not much of an offensive machine either. He lost his position to Gino Cimoli in 1957, the Dodgers last year in Brooklyn. You were right about how many years it took. 1955. By then I had moved to California, but I still followed the team because for some reason it seemed that NBC's Mutual Game of the Day always seemed to have the Brooklyn Dodgers on its schedule. I must have heard 40 games during the summer of 1955.
By 1956 the novelty had worn off and I was too busy with my own baseball career to worry about Brooklyn any more since they were so far away. You know the rest.
There was a pair of R-46s decked out with stars where the blue stripe was for the BiCentennial in 1976. Stayed that way for a while until the overhauls.
--Mark
"I don't imagine any of you New York transit buffs will see any American flags wired to the pantagraphs of the trains this upcoming
holiday."
Probably not, but at least here in Chicago, Pace (suburban bus authority) buses fly a small American flag from the radio aerial at the front of the bus on every national holiday. I'm sure Memorial Day will not be an exception.
The next train...had a small American flag on a stick...
That flag should have been at half mast to have been flown properly on Memorial Day.
[That flag should have been at half mast to have been flown properly on Memorial Day.]
Until noon; then to the top. A flag on a stick should have black crepe on it until noon.
Actually some LIRR cars are still emblazoned with a flag and the slogan (I think) We Do Our Part.
www.forgotten-ny.com
We do our part?!? Wasn't that the slogan of the old "sick chicken" of the New Deal, the National Recovery Agency? Lasted two or three years at most, before it was killed off by a Supreme Court decision in 1937.
Participating companies would put a sign in their window, with "NRA. We do our part." and a rather fascist-looking blue (!) stylized eagle holding a gear in one of it's claws. Hence the "sick chicken" nickname.
How old ARE those LIRR cars, anyhow? :^)
Today, the oldest car dates back to about 1970.
The recently retired diesel fleet dated back to..... 1955!
I loved the Blue Eagle and felt the NRA was never given a serious chance to succeed because of Republican and Conservative Democratic opposition. Fascist it was not, dignified it was----at least to me.
It was FDR's major design for industrial recovery and two parts that remained of it was the Wagner Act which replaced Section 7A, allowing unions to organize, and the Public Works Administration which was passed the same day (June 16, 1933) as part of the NRA. FDR was a great President and I have a picture of him hanging in my classroom. BTW, it was declared unconstiutional on May 8, 1935. PLEASE' PLEASE, someone revive #1Brighton Beach Bob quickly. I think he's fainted from fright at what he has just read from me.
05/26/2000
[The next train (I think it was a 600 series BU) had a small American flag on a stick wired to the front right gate stanchion. The flag was flapping in the breeze as the train entered the station.]
I wonder would happen if a train operator (ex-motorman) attached an American flag to the pantograph gate. Would he or she be written up or berated by supervision?
Besides it seems we have moved from a society of patriotic flag wavers to ultra-liberal flag burners!
Bill "Newkirk"
There's nothing wrong with flag burning. In fact, burning is the approved, proper, respectable way to dispose a flag, unless you work for the EPA.
I once actually saw a wreath tied to the front of a Slanty R-40 train a few years back around Christmas time! Has anyone else seen anything like that?
I have seen Christmas wreaths attached to the front of diesel engines used in local freight service here in Pennsylvania. It doesn't happen very often, but I remember a Reading crew who always did it back in the 1960's and 1970's.
Sorry for the off-topic post, but does anyone know the story behind the Premier Cruises ship tied up at the Red Hook Container Terminal this morning? It looks like Holland-America's old Rotterdam.
Apparently, it arrived about 7 last night.
Any answers for why it's there would be appreciated. Thanks!
[Sorry for the off-topic post, but does anyone know the story behind the Premier Cruises ship tied up at the Red Hook Container Terminal this morning? It looks like Holland-America's old Rotterdam.
Apparently, it arrived about 7 last night.]
It's probably at some sort of repair facility. A few weeks ago, I noticed a Wallenius Lines auto carrier at about the same spot. Now, I'm reasonably certain that there aren't any auto shipments in or out of the Brooklyn docks, so it presumably was there for repairs.
I can see it from Jersey City it looks like there is a tug or barge against it prob being fixed..
For those of you who (like me) have eclectic tastes, one of the AMF nonorail cars from the 1964 World's Fairs has been "found" in Texas. (I didn't know it was "lost!).
Check it out at
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/News.html#anchor2376285
And some history at:
http://home.netcom.com/~gemmalou/amf.html
Although I went to the Fair over 25 times in '64-'65, I only rode the Monrail twice. As a teenager at that time, I found the 80 cent fare way too expensive!
We usually travelled to the Fair on the B-58 Corona bus from Ridgewood.
Ah, great memories, Conrad & Bob! At the time of the 64-65 Fair I was < 10, and we lived in Howard Beach. It was a nearly every weekend activity for my family. But instead of driving up the Van Wyck, I urged my father to take us via subway. It was longer, sure, but half the fun of the Fair was getting there! The usual route was the HH to Euclid, then A to Times Square, then 7 SuperExpress.
Somewhere at home I may have some slides of the Monorail in action ... taken with my little Kodak Instamatic. I'll have to look around.
>>>It was longer, sure, but half the fun of the Fair was getting there! <<<
As the song in the TV commercial said, "Part of the fun of the Worlds Fair, is the subway special that takes you there!"
Peace,
ANDEE
We visited the World's Fair on July 20, 1965, taking the LIRR from what was left of Penn Station. There was a recorded announcement at the gates; I can remember "Welcome to the New York World's Fair. Please have your tickets.." I do remember taking the Swiss Sky Ride (the same cable gondola-type ride as at Coney Island and Palisades) and the rubber tire Ferris Wheel, but I don't believe we took the monorail. And there was the porpoise show and dinosaur exhibit. It was a hot day, and to this day, I find it hard to believe I was actually dressed in BLACK!! My folks insisted that we all hold hands all day so we wouldn't get lost, and it worked.
Of course, the following day I rode on the subway for the first time, and the rest is history.
Funny, same situaton here -- 80 cent fare was a little "high" for a teenager at the time. I also visited the NYWF a couple dozen times.
Of course, I was one of those who found the hole in the fence under the LIE.....that helped me get in "free" a few times!!!
Interesting. Now I know what AMF stands for, too.
--Mark
What a mess this morning coming to work. I walked toward the corner of Main St and Roosevelt Ave for my train around 8:50am today 5/25 to see many police officers and police vehicles in the area. Crowds of people all along the sidewalk and traffic was a nightmare that one officer acted as a traffic agent. Then I was so shocked after a police van made a public announcement about last night's murder and asking for public's help. I've never ever been so close to a crime scene before like this. I hope those 2 suspects get what they deserve if they are caught: capital punishment.
I agree .. and its about time NY state executed such a hood. Like why weren't the World Trade Center bombers executed. This was so cold blooded death is the onmly proper punishment. Hope NYC won't be like it was 20 or so years ago again.
Because at the time, fools ruled New York and the death penalty did not existed. The death penalty is only in effect for crimes committed after September 1, 1995.
Before the grammar police decide to pounce on my message (and I know they will, some people have too much time on their hands). That was supposed to have read:
Because at the time, fools ruled New York and the death penalty did not exist. The death penalty is only in effect for crimes committed after September 1, 1995.
Let no one here make the mistake of thinking that the death penalty would have prevented this tragedy. That is not to say that I am against the death penalty because the opposite is true. Let's just understand that the death penalty serves two purposes. It allows society a measure of revenge and revenge can be very theraputic. It also prevent recidivism.
The cause of this tragedy has been engineered, has been educated, has been legislated into the very fabric of our society. When Dave Thomas was legally prevented from asking this miscreant if he had ever been arrested for robbing a fast food restaurant - we created the situation. In fact he had been arrested twice for robbing McDonalds according to the early news reports. Likely he was convicted of loitering thanks to plea bargaining. Not surprising in a society where a charge of Sodomy is reduced to 'Following too close' and the prosecution winks at the defense.
We've recently seen a 6 year old kill a 6 year old classmate. Today we saw a 13 year old kill his language teacher in Florida. Lets not forget Columbine or the World Trade Center or Oklahoma City. So lets talk about capital punishment - but lets not forget that when we finally do kill this bastard, we'll have already created 20 more. We already know some waiting in the wings.
[Not surprising in a society where a charge of Sodomy is reduced to 'Following too close']
Well, actually, that's not an entirely inappropriate description :-)
Rim Shot!!!!
...oops-that could also be inappropriate.
I'll keep it brief by saying I was called for jury duty in Livingston, Montana several years ago. I got off by saying I didn't believe in the justice system in this country. Why.. my immediate reason was that a cop killer's lawyer got a change of venue to my county, then a mistrial because the cop killer was drunk at the time.Yes it happens in the wild west too. Think what you will of me but watch the axe fall when one us us everyday nobodies does a misdemeanor..maybe not jail but they'll grab your money. I won't waste time on what I think of schools, pushing kids into tranqilizers from little on. Human nature is always the same.. but life in the 50's wasn't like this , and I blame the social planners and lack of a real home life. Guess I wasn't brief.
Guess I wasn't brief.
No, but you're right, to a point at least. Not sure about the social planners stuff, but the lack of a home life is a definite contributor to the problems.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
where was the crime scene located..... ??.... & what subway station was the closest ?? ...the # 7...?
Main Street is the Flushing terminal of the 7.
.........oh my god ...i had one of those wendys ""frostys"" right there on main street ....... near the # 7 terminal ...!!!
You know,when 5 people are brutally murdered,,it is very sad,you humour is in very very poor taste
I was there after the incident,,as part of my job with the NYC Fire Dept,I work OEM
.....wrong sir i was only asking about the location because i felt i was at athyat location only seeing a brief vidieo
shot of this on the nightly news..... i have worked in fast foods and cafeterias this could have happened to me ......
wrong..... I am not making light of this at all !! FDNY good speed in bringing these murderers to justice ...!!!!
.....wrong sir i was only asking about the location because i felt i was at that location only seeing a brief vidieo
shot of this on the nightly news..... i have worked in fast foods and cafeterias this could have happened to me ......
wrong..... I am not making light of this at all !! FDNY good speed in bringing these murderers to justice ...!!!!
What is wrong with you?
A "Frosty" is the Wendy's brand of milkshake. I once ate there too.
......ok fine..... now ....it is a frozen soft serve -milkshake........right ......!!!..... now ..whats the point ..???.....
I wasn't talking to you! I was informing FDNY so he would stop making stupid comments.
......then do not respond to the post ......
Salaam, Pigs was defending you! FDNY completely misunderstood your post #122685, and was taking you to task for it. Pigs saw the mistake that FDNY made, came to your rescue, and you misunderstood his rescue attempt!
.....sorry my apologies .....
Thank you.
Hard to believe, isn't it?
......again my apologies I would never make a joke ot of this mass murder.......
To all involved readers,
I worked the WTC Bombing in 1992,the Plane crash out of LaGuardia
Airport,and numerous other serious incidents in NYC,most recently the Plane Crash /disappearance over LI Sound.
When I see people make light out of other people's misfortunes or death,,it bothers me.
How about the Happyland Fire??
Did you ever see a person burned to death ,,or ripped apart in a train incident---man under as we call it on the radio .
So when I see things like some of the things recently posted regarding the Wendy's Massacre ,,making jokes and comments,,I think that It would bother any mature adult,,,perhaps am I overestimating some of you when I use the word "adult."
Yes,I hope these 2 fellow get the death penalty ,but a Capital Trial takes years,and alot of money ,I agree with alot of you ,lets go back to the European Style of a Firing Squad in the Town Square.--Main St right off of Northern Blvd,,east of Main St or Union St.
Steve
Nobody was making any jokes, that's the point. Salaam was expressing his disbelief at having been in a place where such a horrible tragedy occured.
I have eaten there once too.
Although I don't think Salaam was trying to be funny, I think he was just expressing how shocked he was to realize he had eaten in that very place, I must say that humor can many times be a defense mechanism (albeit denial) with tragedies. As a cop for 18 1/2 yrs I've seen some really bad things during my career and I have to admit I've exchanged some really sick jokes with others. Certainly not to the victims or families. Its just human nature, a form of denial.
Thank you very much officer rosen....I used to work in the fast food & cafeteria type employment.......
this should not be the type of work that should cost you your life...... Y ou have seen things as a policeman
that even hollywood could not never show .. my comment of drinking a frosty at the main streets wendys was
more from the horror and shock of knowing I was there last november 1999 while shooting the mumber # 7 on vidieo..
The Wendy's is located on Main St., about one-half block from the intersection of Roosevelt Ave. and Main St. in Flushing. The 7 line travels above and below Roosevelt Ave.
Datails:
From the New York Times - suspect arrested
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/26cnd-wendys.html
-----------------------------
from the NY Daily News:
http://www.MOSTNEWYORK.COM/2000-05-26/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-67962.asp
05/26/2000
[. I hope those 2 suspects get what they deserve if they are caught: capital punishment.]
We'll never see capital punishment utilized in New York. We clamored for it for years and has it been used? There has been some henious crimes committed since but no death penalty. Even if 10 people were slaughtered at Wendy's, capital punishment will never a reality as long as the liberal press, ACLU and other assorted anarchists have their way.
Bill "Newkirk"
Capital Punishment takes a long time. The law was passed in 1995, it takes many years from committing a crime to trial, sentencing and then a LONG death row before finally being killed. I'd like to see it made shorter.
Summary execution in a case like this. I just saw the 10 O'clock news and they caught this thug out in Brentwood. Maybe the inmates at whatever jail they take him to can arrange for him to have an "accident".
This whole incident just makes me madder and madder so I'm probably just venting here. Must "do the right thing", go through the appeals process, ...year RIGHT! Did this guy give a shit? NOPE.
wayne
[Summary execution in a case like this. I just saw the 10 O'clock news and they caught this thug out in Brentwood.]
Not exactly good publicity for Long Island ...
I'm all for life imprisonment...
WITH TORTURE!!!
This country sure needs corporal punishment.
That whole (eighth) amendment is too vague, it just depends on the makeup of the Supreme Court at any time.
Go get'em Sarge. I'm with you.
I'm all for life imprisonment... WITH TORTURE!!!
I agree completely. Cruel and unusual punishment is far more satisfying to society than 'humane' prison sentances. And if the justice system actually worked, the police wouldn't have an incentive to randomly mow down unarmed suspects in a hail of gunfire--the truly guilty would already be in prison.
There is a very simple recipe to update the legal system to cope with modern crime. Unfortunately no politician has the guts to do what is necessary.
1. Two strikes. No repeat offenders.
2. Change 'guilty beyond a reasonable doubt' to 'reasonably
guilty based on the evidence.' No more 'technicalities.'
3. Proactive justice, where those who are likely to commit a
crime (for instance stalkers, the insane, gang members,
and the members of violent hate groups) can be imprisoned
before they push someone under a subway train
rather than afterwards.
4. Expanded RICO laws so that all members of a criminal
organization can be prosecuted for the crimes of one
member, regardless of each individual's personal
involvement. This measure would break the back of
organized crime.
5. Enact broad-based exemptions for self-defense and vengeance
killings. Make it clear to all scum that, even if the
"justice" system is too inept to prosecute them, their
victims or next of kin have a right to solve the problem
themselves.
6. Ensure long prison terms for white-collar and corporate
crime, such as fraud, health-and-safety violations,
environmental violations, monopolistic behavior, and the
marketing of unsafe products.
As it is simply too dangerous to testify against organized crime (street gangs and the mafia) in open court, the following changes are needed to increase the willingness of witnesses to report gang and mafia activity:
1. Make witness intimidation a capital crime.
2. Allow anonymous testimony in cases where retaliation is
possible.
3. Remove the right for all hired psychopaths (aka lawyers) to
cross-examine non-expert witnesses.
Some people would call this manifesto a blueprint of totalitarianism. I call it justice.
I have a problem with #3 (Proactive justice): That would allow police too much leeway in determining who "fits" those profiles. Cops would be encouraged to bust anyone who looks like "trouble", guilty or not. Now, punks who wear the "colors" of the Crips and other well-known gangs should indeed be watched closely. But how do you define "violent hate groups"? There are quite a few people, some carrying badges and service revolvers, who would lump the NAACP and the Nation of Islam together in that category...
And then there's #2. The "reasonable doubt" standard exists partly to discourage misconduct on the part of police and prosecutors. Recently, there has been a rash of overturned convictions as a result of such behaviors (including numerous death-penalty cases in Illinois).
We ALL would love to see a dramatic reduction in crime. But I, for one, don't want to lose my basic rights and freedoms under a totalitarian state...such oppression eventually affects law-abiding citizens as well. As the old saying goes, "Those who would trade freedom for security end up with neither, and deserve neither." Or..."Be careful what you wish for..."
I like the part about white collar crime, however. Republicans claim to be tough on crime, but they are really only tough on street crimes, which are mostly committed by poor minorities. Heck, sometimes it seems like Republicans believe in being tough on minorities whether then commit crimes or not.
But on white collar crime, Republicans are...well...liberal. And we have an epidemic of white collar crime in this country, which is seldom prosecuted and lightly punished.
[I like the part about white collar crime, however. Republicans claim to be tough on crime, but they are really only tough on street crimes, which are mostly committed by poor minorities.]
While white collar crimes do deserve strict punishment, they aren't quite in the same category as street crime:
1. White collar crime only involve money. People sometimes *die* as a result of street crimes.
2. White collar crimes are geographically dispersed, meaning they aren't a factor behind neighborhood decline (as street crime most assuredly is).
[Heck, sometimes it seems like Republicans believe in being tough on minorities whether they commit crimes or not.]
I suppose that's true of some Republicans, though surely not anything close to a majority of them. And it's also true that certain people on the other end of the political spectrum (think of the Upper West Side) have infantilized minorities, and believe in being soft on them even if they do commit crimes. It all probably evens out.
White collar crime does kill, just not so directly. When an older person is swindled out of his life savings or tricked into signing over their home, or has a expected pension terminated because someone stole the funds their lives are shortened.
[White collar crime only involve money. People sometimes *die* as a result of street crimes.]
Wrong. White collar crimes CAN cost lives, such as in cases where a person is on a fixed income or physically incapacitated and never gets the needed assistance due to intentional mismanagement of funding and/or sabotage of documents for medical aid. It's been known to happen. In those cases the murders are more "cause and effect" rather than an out-right hands-on murder, but the outcome is the same.
Doug aka BMTman
"But on white collar crime, Republicans are...well...liberal. And we have an epidemic of white collar crime in this country, which is seldom prosecuted and lightly punished."
Larry when you talk about White Collar crime are you talking about scams like White Water? If so, I can see your point and I agree that republicans like Janet Reno don't want to touch it.
"But on white collar crime, Republicans are...well...liberal. And we have an epidemic of white collar crime in this country, which is seldom prosecuted and lightly punished."
Larry when you talk about White Collar crime are you talking about scams like White Water? If so, I can see your point and I agree that republicans like Janet Reno don't want to touch it.
I'm not going to willingly open the Whitewater can of worms on Subtalk, but it's an unfortunate truth that nobody, regardless of political stripe, wants to touch white collar crime. Here are a few Canadian examples from top of my head:
A serious blood contamination problem in the early 1980s. several thousand people (mostly haemophiliacs) contracted HIV and Hepititis C from contaminated blood products. Cause: the blood system managers didn't want to spend the money on HIV testing equipment even when it was available. No one served a day in jail.
About five years ago, 18 miners were killed in an underground explosion. The mine management skimped on safety equipment and cut corners around safety standards. Two managers were charged but the RCMP bungled the investigation and charges had to be dropped. No one served a day in jail.
It has been widely reported that the Quebec police will not investigate or shut down Quebec-based telemarketing fraud operations which do not prey on Quebecers.
Another poster argued that white collar crime isn't really important because it doesn't kill people. I hope he doesn't say that within earshot of the next of kin to those eighteen dead Westray miners.
CH.
I understand that the E.Coli outbreak at Walkerton ON which has killed five and sickened a hundred times that could have been prevented - officials knew and failed to act. THAT'S criminal!
wayne
(Larry when you talk about White Collar crime are you talking about scams like White Water? If so, I can see your point and I agree that republicans like Janet Reno don't want to touch it).
My impression is that Democrats and Republicans are soft on different aspects of white-collar crime -- the aspect associated with their political and financial backers.
The Democrats, for example, will go after Medicare fraud by for-profit hospital chains and insurance companies, but not the rich non-profits that are part of their machine. They aren't exactly tough on welfare fraud either. The Republicans go easy on employer fraud, consumer fraud, environmental fraud, and tax fraud.
It's not about what, it's about who, for these SOB's, and most of us are nobodies in the "who" department.
[...sometimes it seems like Republicans believe in being tough on minorities, whether they commit crimes or not....]
That's because most minority voters are Democrats.
That's also why the Republican Party, through the NRA, ensures that the streets are flooded with guns -- most victims of (urban) gun violence are minorities, and thus Democrats! It's a really simple equation: More Guns = More Shootings = Fewer Democrats!! And if a Republican just happens to get shot, that's too bad, because a real Republican should be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Party.
:-)
Gun Control is nothing more than counter productive nonsense. all police should be required to encourage law abiding citizens to own guns and to store and use them safely. there is no better deterrent to a criminal than to know he may not survive his crime.
Whenguns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. Is NY City's Sullivan Law any proof?
What is the Sullivan Law?
The first stage of a cancer which began in New York City and metastasized throughout America: Gun Control
I agree whole-heartedly with this one. Clearly the police cannot protect the entire citizenry from violent crime. Hence, responsible citizens should be allowed to own and carry weapons for self protection. The problem is that the same moron who comes out of his car with a tire iron after a minor fender-bender will now emerge with a 44 magnum. There is no happy medium. Perhaps binding psychological testing to evaluate who is likely to fire in anger when he/she could flee would help. [SCREW THE ROSIE O'DONNELL'S OF THE WORLD WHO HIRE BODY GUARDS AND THEN SAY THE AVERAGE CITIZEN SHOULD NOT HAVE OR DOES NOT NEED PROTECTION]. Just to try to keep this topical, despite the assignment, all NYCT employees, with the exception of Revenue Agents, are prohibited from carrying a firearm on the property whether they are licensed or not.
I've deduced that much, but what does it achieve? Is it the law that prevents carrying of firearms?
I used to hear that term Sullivan Law many years ago, like in the 40's so I guess the name is pretty much unused. Essentially the forbidding of carrying firearms without a permit; needless to say only the chosen have permits. Whether it refers to other deadly weapons I don't know. Regrettably there are nutswith guns, but they are the minority of gun owners. Personally I don't care to own one for my own reasons but feel that people should be allowed protection. Constitutional guarantee.
This is getting out of the transit area, but in response to the question "what is the Sullivan law?" (which is still in effect), the following excerpt from an article by Jeffrey R. Snyder should help:
"In 1911 New York enacted the Sullivan Law, which was to become the model for restricting the ownership and carrying of handguns. The law outlawed handgun ownership without a police permit and was modeled after European firearms laws that were considered to be successful in dealing with political dissidents, anarchists, and labor agitators.
...
"Within metropolitan areas, the issuance of permits under discretionary systems depends on factors unrelated to any simple determination of whether the applicant can be reasonably expected to act responsibly. The list of permit holders in New York City, for example, strongly suggests that the Sullivan Law has been applied on the basis of wealth, celebrity status, political influence, and favoritism. Licensees have included and include such luminaries as Eleanor Roosevelt, Lyman Bloomingdale, Henry Cabot Lodge, Nelson Rockefeller, Laurence Rockefeller, Mayor John Lindsay, New York Times publisher Arthur Ochs Sulzberger, William F. Buckley Jr., Donald Trump, Leland DuPont, publisher Michael Korda, Arthur Godfrey, Sammy Davis Jr., Robert Goulet, Sid Caesar, Bill Cosby, Joan Rivers, and Howard Stern. Other licensees have included several major slumlords, a Teamsters Union boss who was a defendant in a major racketeering suit, and a restaurateur with ties to organized crime. Meanwhile, taxi drivers, who face a high risk of robbery, 'are denied gun permits because they carry less than $2,000 in cash,' and city courts have ruled that ordinary citizens and store owners may not receive permits to carry firearms because they have no greater need for protection than does anyone else in the city."
Cato Policy Analysis No. 284 October 22, 1997
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-284.html
This is off the topic of this board so should not be answered. The total article is much longer and very interesting reading.
While no fan of Republicans, I think that's overstating things a bit.
["While no fan of Republicans, I think that's overstating things a bit."]
Not really. Notice that most of the illegal guns in NYC (mostly Democratic) are sent here by the NRA-sponsored manufacturers through Georgia, Virginia, and other big gun-lobby states (mostly Republican). And even in those states, the mostly Democratic large cities (e.g. Atlanta) are forbidden - by state law, in violation of "home rule" - to prosecute the NRA and the manufacturers for flooding their streets with illegal guns.
Coincidence? Absolutely not. It's a concerted effort to keep the illegal guns where the Democrats are, so that they can be used against said Democrats.
---
Maybe it would be better to REQUIRE everybody to carry loaded Uzis, with or without proper training in their use?
So these large manufacturers hire minority thugs to buy and transport these guns to large cities. They then create a demand for the product by minority youths - how exactly? They encourage minority youth to go out and kill other members of the minority community (like the 11 murders in NY this week starting with Wendy's - all were minority on minority crime). If we are to follow your somewhat bizzar and convoluted logic, one would have to conclude that The good Reverends, Sharpton and Jackson are on the payroll of the Republicans and the NRA as they have never publically condemned members of the minority community who traffic in or illegally possess guns. If we are to follow your somewhat bizzar and convoluted logic, one would have to conclude that a similar proportion of the inner-city white and Asian communities (also mostly democratic) also possess and use illegal weapons. We also know this is not true. Time for a reality check sir. Your rantings are starting to sound very similar to those of our resident Left Coast hate-monger. The only difference is that your grammar and spelling are better.
Sorry to see mental health is passing you by.
Your comments are so absurd they require no further response.
KF#4
I have a problem with #3 (Proactive justice): That would allow police too much leeway in determining who "fits" those profiles. Cops would be encouraged to bust anyone who looks like "trouble", guilty or not. Now, punks who wear the "colors" of the Crips and other well-known gangs should indeed be watched closely. But how do you define "violent hate groups"?
I was thinking of a formal due process (i.e. a trial) for proactive justice rather than writing a blank cheque to imprison anyone who looks suspicious. I'm certainly not trying to create a police state.
For instance, I propose that 'intent to commit murder' be a crime, with the same potential punishments as first degree murder currently carries. A stalker could then be charged for intent, and based on his/her prior actions (tresspassing, harassment, etc, etc, etc), he/she could be imprisoned until they were no longer a threat to their intended victim.
The inability of the justice system to imprison for intent is a story of failure told in the trail the dead bodies of stalking victims.
I agree that objectively identifying violent hate groups could be difficult, but I believe stronger legal tools are necessary to deal with groups like Christian Identity and the KKK.
And then there's #2. The "reasonable doubt" standard exists partly to discourage misconduct on the part of police and prosecutors.
It is impossible to prove, but it is my opinion that most law enforcement abuse occurs out of frustration at the sheer inability of the courts to take the dirtbags off the streets.
If the average repeat-offender dirtbag keeps getting out of jail through a revolving door, it's understandable that the law enforcement process will eventually snap and wind up brutalizing a suspect or knowingly trying an innocent person.
If the dirtbags are put away for good, I would assume that the level of job satisfaction and pride within the law enforcement community would improve to the point that abuses deminish significantly. In my mind, there's no reason for law enforcement to violate the civil rights of a 30 arrests-no-convictions gangbanger if the courts will give the dirtbag what he deserves.
CH.
It's a shame you haven't been reading the Los Angeles newspapers where they have been reporting an ongoing scandal which will eventually cost the taxpayers millions if not billions because of police misconduct in which police planted guns and drugs on individuals including one case where they shot and permanently crippled an individual then planted a gun on him and got him convicted to prison with false testimony.
Of couse it's true if we could short circuit all the appeals available to inmates sentanced to death, we wouldn't have the embarrasment as in Illinois of finding so many innocent people sitting on death row.
You can charge "attempt" to almost any crime in the NYS Penal Law, so #3, Proactive justice is a moot point.
It's a shame you didn't live in Nazi Germany. You would have loved their efficient justice system.
I'm all for life
imprisonment...
color="red">WITH TORTURE!!!
I'm all for life
imprisonment...
WITH
TORTURE!!!
Life imprisonment...solitary confinement 24/7...no contact with other cons...no visits...no books or other diversions. Just the perp, alone with his thoughts for the rest of his damnable life. In my opinion, that would be more effective than the death penalty.
According to the 5PM news casts the perp in the case, a John Taylor, was apprehended in Brentwood LI a short while ago.
A large Yasha Koach ( hebrew for "job well done" ) to all law enforcement officials involved for the swift apprehension of this menace.
May G-d bring peace and comfort to the families of the deceased.
One perp down, one to go. Unless they split up completely just after the robbery, I don't think the first one is going to stay silent for his pal very long.
Hope they got the right guy. What the perp didn't count on, and what will hopefully make sure, is one and perhaps two eye-witnesses.
I reminds me of my teen job as a busboy/diswasher/cook in a family restaurant in Tulsa OK. I'd close the place at 2 a.m., walk the mile home, then go out for a jog (oh how my body has deteriorated since 1979).
At about that time, a bunch of thugs robbed a Sirloin Stockade restaurant at closing down the road in Oklahoma City, herded employees into the walk-in refrigerator, and shot them all. It was a national story. There were some other walk-in wipeouts I remember from that time. We always thought that we might end up dead in the walk-in, and were really wary around closing. Hadn't heard of one in recent years.
A really rotten thing to do to working people bustin-ass for the minimum wage.
I think these guys should have the death penalty. They took innocent people's lives. We have the death penalty here in NY, if we have to use it, we should-no exeptions.
MTAKing823
Nope, I'm not even prepared to sentence these guys to death, and this is the worst. Killing them won't bring the victims back to life. Locking them in a cell will do what I believe the criminal justice system is for -- protecting use from further crimes, not revenge.
And there is always the outside chance that (because of this guy's record, because he was an employee, because he was just nasty) they have the wrong guy. The chances are low, but the law of very big numbers says that anything that is not impossible is CERTAIN to happen sooner of later given enough cases. So why take that chance.
Put 'em in cells, with a tape of statements by the victim's families and other aggreived community members playing in a continous loop for the 50 years until death. No shoelaces on the shoes.
"And there is always the outside chance that (because of this guy's record, because he was an employee, because he was just nasty) they have the wrong guy."
Let's see! They recovered the gun that was used. They recovered the cash that was taken. They recovered the video tape from the security system. They have 2 eye witnesses. They have bloody fingerprints. Gee, Larry, I hope they really get some hard evidence on these bums so we can all sleep at night knowing that the right guys were caught.
As with all tough guy wannabes, where did this piece of garbage go to hide from the police????? Right to his mama's house in Brentwood LI. Real tough guy. Lets see how tough he is without a gun.
I'd prefer not to waste society's money on this scum and just get rid of the body quickly and cheaply. No need for expensive video feeds.
"A really rotten thing to do to working people bustin-ass for the minimum wage."
Larry, I know that you don't mean that it would be more acceptable or less terrible if the people shot were patrons at the "Rainbow Room". Crime is crime and the economic status of the victim or the perp should have no bearing on the way we view the incident.
[One perp down, one to go. Unless they split up completely just after the robbery, I don't think the first one is going to stay silent for his pal very long.]
I'm sure that Taylor (the one who was caught) will be singing like a canary. Even the most hardened criminals turn into sniveling cowards when they're in custody. Given that the average criminal has an I.Q. score of 85, I suppose it's not surprising.
I think those suspects are already cowards to begin with by
#1: using guns. They don't want to fight with fists like real men.
#2: hiding in his mommy's place in Long Island.
#3: having an accomplice to help him commit the crime instead of by himself.
#4: committed the crime in a predominantly quiet bustling neighborhood instead of the South Bronx or other high-crime areas where he might've get his own @$$ kicked by other fellow perps.
So now they both admitted to everything. Justice should be swift and carried out in a matter most tortuous (like Jeffrey Rosen said). In Singapore, a kid gets caned for graffiti. In Arabia convicts get limbs and/or heads cut off for rapes and murders. In the US, a needle injection for murders is definitely not sufficient enough.
[Given that the average criminal has an I.Q.score of 85]
That seems like a pretty high score to me.
Most of these vermin have IQs matching their sperm count - ZERO!!
[[Given that the average criminal has an I.Q.score of 85]
That seems like a pretty high score to me.
Most of these vermin have IQs matching their sperm count - ZERO!!]
Unfortunately, most criminals do NOT have a sperm count of zero, as shown by the new generations of criminals they keep spawning :-(
As a matter of fact, John Taylor (who has confessed to one of the shootings)has two children. Needless to say, his wife left him.
Both Peter and Train Dude are correct: criminals DO keep spawning more clones.
But my comment re: IQs near or at zero still holds:
From Sunday's NY Times . . .
"Both are saying, 'I got nothing,' or 'I only got a little,'"
the senior law enforcement official said.
"Both are attempting to minimize their part in the crime.
We're not dealing with terribly intelligent people here.
Both implicated themselves. They are in very deep."
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/052800ny-wendys.html
Maybe, along with the torture mentioned previously, castration would be in order for these maggots. Stop the cloning!
I was there to see the mess,,very very sad,,,people were crying in the streets
They should put this animal against the wall,,and shoot him ,,immediately ,,,no questions asked
Steve
FDNY
[They should put this animal against the wall,,and shoot him ,,immediately ,,,no questions asked]
One possible question is whether the animal wants to be shot in the head: front-to-back, sideways, back-to-front, with bags over head, gagged, hands tied behind back, etc...
One possible question is whether the animal wants to be shot in the head: front-to-back, sideways, back-to-front, with bags over head, gagged, hands tied behind back, etc...
Rather than death by firing squad, I'd suggest burning them at the stake. It takes longer.
CH.
You want slow torture? How about this?
The condemned criminal is strapped into a special electric chair. This chair will start at .0001 volts, then S-L-O-W-L-Y increase to a lethal
voltage. The increase period can be as long as 48 or more hours, but will ALWAYS increase to a lethal voltage. Once strapped in the chair, the condemned cannot leave - for any reason. Anyone else - guards, officials, clergy, witnesses, may leave and return after a decent interval. The increase time can be random, and the condemned does not know the interval. Should be the greatest form of torture ever developed. The physologial stress itself could kill.
Just throw him in jail -- the good ol' boys fixed Dahmer good. this thread is deteriorating into sickness.
perhaps the thread on the tragedy at wendy's could end on an expression of great sadness for the lives that were taken and sorrow for the families of the dead workers...
Thread should never have begun (with apologies to whomever started it). This thread never had anything to do with transit.
David
It even made the front page in the Local Maui Paper, and nothing from NYC makes it on the front page here/
Oddly enough, for someone who supported the Rudy/Bratton crime initiatives 100%, I oppose capital punishment. But, if the DA fails to ask for it in this case, they may as well go back to the Cuomo era of no death penalty...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Oddly enough, for someone who supported the Rudy/Bratton crime initiatives 100%, I oppose capital punishment. But, if the DA fails to ask for it in this case, they may as well go back to the Cuomo era of no death penalty...]
One often-overlooked advantage of the death penalty is that it's a terrific way of getting criminals to plead guilty. Faced with the prospect of the Hot Squat or the Big Needle, many criminals will waive the right to a trial - thereby saving lots of taxpayer money and avoiding the never-nonexistent chance of a Not Guilty verdict - in return for life imprisonment.
While at 34th St. station waiting to go home I was watching the signal and trip-cock at the start of the westbound platform. By luck a westbound arrived b4 my train and I got to see the little dohickey in action. Well the train thundered past and the little white painted arm came up after the last car ha passed. Then when the signal went to yellow the little arm went down. I was wondering how they get the arm to stay down while the train passes overhead. The triping arm is connected to a box in the middle of the tracks with metal "ramps" on either side. Does that have something to do with it?
I also noticed how much of a waste some of the stations are. I mean the distance from the end of the 13th platform to the 11th St. platform can't be more than 150 feet. I also noticed that the MFL blocks seem to be quite short and most platforms have a signal at either end (making the block legnth about one car legnth.
I've noticed this too. I was amazed how fast the trains went on these stretches, though.
The signals in Philly are the same as NYC. This site has an excellent explanation in FAQ:
http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/signals/stops.html
Basically, the signal sits at a insulated joint in the rail. It knows when a train is on the section of track (block) leading up to it, and it knows when a train is on the next block. The signal goes red as soon as the leading wheels of the train are in the next block, but the trip arm does not go up until the last wheels have cleared the block leading up to that signal.
There is that period of time, as the train passes, when wheels of the train are in both blocks, and the signal knows to leave the trip arm down until the train is only in the next block, and thus the train has passed.
I know how the NYC subway trip arms work, but the MFL arm went up imeadiately after the last wheels went past it and it went back down after the changed to yellow. I would guess that due to the shortness of the blocks the MFL has multiple reds behind each train, but still the trip arm went up as soon as the train passed. I think it has something to do with the box in the middle of the tracks. As each truck passed over the trip a metal on metal sound could be heard. There is some sort of interaction going on there.
I thought the multiple reds are for extra spacing during non peak hours. That is also why many signals are outfitted with a T on them, timed to the schedule.
IIRC, the Market Frankford interlocking signals are like NYCT, and the Broad Street signals are like PATH.
Market Frankford: Red/Red: Stop and Stay Red: Stop Green/Yellow: Approach (next signal is red) Straight Green/Green: Full clear Straight Yellow/Yellow: Approach Diverging Green/Yellow: Clear diverging.
Broad Street: Signals go by left and right tracks, the top signal begin for right tracks, the bottom for left tracks. So theoretically, every interlocking signal must have at least one red for the direction in which the switch is not set.
15, 13, and 11th are somewhat close together, but that is the exact center of Philadelphia, so it is useful for stations to be close together there. It is similar to the closeness of stations in Lower Manhattan, like the Wall (or Rector or Broad St.), Fulton (or Cortlandt), Chambers (or City Hall) trio of stations everywhere there.
Also, as close together as they are, the Center City Philadelphia stations get really crowded during rush hour. Think how crowded they must have been when the city had its full 2 million people, most without cars. Then think what they would have been like had there not been these stations. Finally, remember that the Pennsylvania RR used to end at 15 St and the Reading Railroad ended at 11 St (and 13 St. was Wanamaker's Dept. Store). There was no through commuter RR service until the Center City RR Tunnel was opened about 15 years ago.
The stations are perfectly logical, but with only about 150' between them I wonder if a short walk wouldn't have been better. Most people could stand to use the exercise.
Not after they have walked from Walnut or Arch Street in the rain. And the 150' is from the front of one platform to the back of the other, not from the entrance on 13 to the entrance on 11, which is about 1000' ft. (1/5 of a mile).
I vote that they should close 13th st. What does everyone else think?
Chuck Greene
It would make a bigger mess at 15th with transfers from eastbound subway-surface cars. However, 13th eastbound is effectively closed to 'outsiders' (i.e. those not transferring from Juniper) on weekends as the cashier booth is closed at that time. You can go to the surface, cross Market St, re-descend to the subway, pay your fare at the westbound platform, use the stairs to Juniper as a crossover to the eastbound side, and then you're there, but in that space of time you've probably missed a train.
Interestingly enough, before the opening of Gallery 2 in the early 80's, 11th St was often rumored to be the station to be closed, to be replaced by a lengthened 13th St that would effectively become 12th/13th (creating confusion with PATCO's station of the same name a few blocks south). This didn't happen (although 13th eastbound was lengthened) and now 11th St has become very popular once again with the Gallery, Convention Center, and Market East station, among other attractions.
A couple of us are heading up to the Museum at Kingston, NY to work on R-16 6398. All are welcome to join. Let me know via E-Mail.
Original painting scheme (red-white-blue paint):
Without ditchlights: 908, 946.
With ditchlights: 915, 917, 922, 923, 925, 926, 927, 928, 929, 931, 932, 933, 935, 936, 937, 941, 942, 945, 949, 950, 951, 952, 953.
NortheastDirect painting scheme (wide blue paint with red and white stripes):
902, 906, 909, 910, 911, 913, 921, 930, 938, 939, 940, 943, 944, 947, 948.
Acela painting scheme (gray paint with blue paint on roof and front-end windows):
904, 907, 912, 914, 916(*), 918(*), 924(*), 934.
(*) means AEM7AC.
Painting scheme unknown because of heavy repairs at Wilmington Shop:
901, 905, 919, 920.
I have never been to Astoria before(except when the N was out of service my Dad a QV B/O was doing the Shuttle up there). It looks alot different from a Train's Elevated view. I couldn't see much as I rode a R68 with a Transverse cab. but the M/M didn't cover it with a news paper. I hate that! anyway I saw the R68 (4th car) say K on it.
Was it on the transverse or non-transverse end, or a side sign? Usually weird signs like (K) & (M) are found at the non-transverse end of the car. Many R68s have this occur, but this is the first time I've heard it happen with an R68a. The car type is irrelevent though, since it probably is some employee or railfan with keys who likes to scroll the signs. There also might not have been enough time to get the sign right, the train may have had to leave in a hurry and the sign changing person didn't get to finish what he was doing. If you are inquiring as to why there is a (K) on the sign, those cars came with them, since the K was running at the time of the order.
Just came back from a 11 day trip to Israel, and rode their main rail line from Tel Aviv to Haifa. The trains run daily except Sat from 6A to 10P on mainly a hour schedule and the thru trains run express. The trains consist of British Built equipment. The oldest being plain old coach rail cars, converse sitting, 2 seats across from each other, the trains are pulled by old US GE U BOATS and will be retired in the next 2 years. The newer equipment is the same type of equipment as Brit Rail Uses, with locos on each end. The local service is new diesal MU equipment, quite modern. Tickets are bought by cash or credit card by machine, The tickets are inspected by a guard(conductor) who punches the ticket. There is one 1st class car on each train, which has softer seats. Rt trip was just over $10.00. There was a guy selling soft drinks and sandwichs on the train, and was clean and reasonable. Israeli Rail just re-started 2 rt trains daily between Tel Aviv and Jersul'm and will add more trains when 4 more train sets will be available by the end of the year. It was great watching on Sunday, the trains filled with the soldiers going back to duty on Sunday after the Sabbath, all carrying their equipment, including Uzis on their shoulders. No wonder why ARAB TERRORISTS never attacked a train, too many armed soldiers.
Somebody ought to preserve one of those GE's in an Israeli rail museum
There is a Rail Museum there, and they already have one in there. They try to save a piece of every equipment they had, ever since it was the Constanople(Istanbul) to Cairo Railroad built over 100 years ago by the Brits. It was the rail service that Lawrence of Arabia Destroyed during WWI
When I was in Israel in 1985 I couldn't believe both the organization of the country or the security. What was amazing was on our trip from Ashdod to Jerusalem, all we saw was green. In what was the desert, it was all green. Orange groves, tomato and carrot and spinach fields, wheat as far as the eye can see. I guess their drip, drip irrigation system was working well. When we got to Jerusalem we could see the desert east of the town. And the security. It was an armed camp. One official told us, though, that we had missed the boat in not taking the railroad. I remember him saying it was fast and efficient and clean. I also remember asking him if Israel had a subway system like we did in America and in Europe. Glad to know you had a great time.
There's one in Haifa. It's two tracks and cable pulled (one goes up, the other goes down). Also, the platforms are like stairways, with the doors meeting the landings.
The diesel MU trainsets are built by Adtranz. One made a tour of the USA a couple years ago, and Amtrak used it for a week or so on the San Diego line. I was fortunate enough to ride it, and was quite impressed with everything about it. The acceleration was fantastic, the ride was smooth, and the train was comfortable.
I rode it on the return to Tel Aviv, and it was quite fast and comfortable at 100kmh cruseing
> Israeli Rail just re-started 2 rt trains daily between Tel Aviv and > Jersul'm and will add more trains when 4 more train sets will be > > available by the end of the year.
Are they using the new route that they have been constructing?
I am not sure exactly how they used to route it, but I seem to remember the trains leaving TV to the north and then switching
back south. But it now looks like they can run the trains directly south in the highway median (at least until around Lod)?
Bill
You mean they've reinstated the toonerville Trolley from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Unless they've made a massive improvement of the line as it snakes through the hills near Jerusalem, it will never work out: the trip takes too long. Trains between Haifa and Tel Aviv are efficient and really fast, running at least one per hour. Even more frequent service can be had (for the last several years) between Tel Aviv and Netanya, this being a kind of suburban train. The entire distance from Haifa to Tel Aviv is now two-tracked, allowing for greater safety and more efficient service. There is now service to Rehovot (a college town to the south) and hopefully soon to Be'er Sheva', "the capital of the Negev".
The weapons you saw were probably not Uzis but rather good old American M16A1 and Israeli Galil assault rifles, mostly.
Israel Railways has come a long way in improving service and efficiency over the past seven years. But Bob, in my book the Brighton Express is still #1.
Harry
I was riding on the L today going towards Rockaway Parkway. While enjoying the view from the train, I happened to look down at the street and looked at the area where the old tracks for the LIRR used to run on. I got to wondering why those old tracks and stations that the LIRR used a long time ago aren't used for subway purposes. Build a few new stations, repair the old ones and the tracks, create a new line. But I guess that only sounds simple.
By the way, what type of equipment are the LIRR revenue trains? They look similar to the R44 and R46 on the outside. I think a single car is longer than the 75 footers, but I'm not sure. B Division trains should have no problems using the old LIRR stations and track layout.
What do you think? Any information and/or opinions are appreciated.
The LIRR cars are called "M-1" and "M-3" and are 85 feet long. The similarity to the R44 and R46 cars is limited to the shape of the car ends. These cars were manufactured in 1970-1971 (M-1) and 1987 I THINK (M-3).
B Division trains actually DO use former LIRR tracks: the "A" line to the Rockways is a former LIRR branch.
Wayne
Are the M-3's slower than the M-1's. I notice that whenever I have an M-3 train, the ride on the express stretches (like between Mineola and Jamaica, Jamaica and Woodside) seems somewhat slower than an M-1.
Do the M-1's have a higher top speed?
Well,this site has a lot of info on LIRR equipment, but the LIRR mainly used electric M1 MUs. I think they are 80 feet long. Track guage is also standard so any train could run on them. Several subway trainsets including R68s have run on the LIRR before for testing.
-Daniel
Well, the old Bay Ridge branch would make a dandy Brooklyn crosstown line, which Brooklyn sorely lacks. But the demographics aren't there to make it happen, and even if they were, NIMBYs trump all.
BTW Road Dogg, has X-Pac been riding the trains with you?
ww.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, I agree with you 100% about the Bay Ridge Line being a good Brooklyn Crosstown line. There could be room for a two track system along that line, don't you think?
As for X-Pac, he doesn't share the same passion for the railroads as I do. And lately, he's had his hands full with other things. I'm sure you know what I mean.
The LIRR M-1 and M-3 are 85' long. 75' cars would of course work, though I think the LIRR cars are wider so platforms would need extending. Not sure though. The excessive refencing that would need to be done would be a major task in itself, since RR ROWs don't have to be as separated from surrounding areas as subways do. Also, 600v 3rd rail would need to be used, the LIRR uses 750 (not sure if the line was electrified).
Thanks, Henry. I've often wondered about that. With subway ridership at an all-time high, I wondered why some of those stations and tracks couldn't be used for subway purposes. For example, I see the closed Richmond Hill Station every time I ride the J or the old Far Rockaway Line (which hasn't been used in so long that trees have grown on the on the span, which I feel is a shame -- and a waste) and how they could be used to improve service on the subways.
Maybe something can be done to make this a reality.
Since the 1960's there have been plans to run passenger trains on the old Bay Ridge Branch, but as you can see, nothing has come of it.
Doug aka BMTman
Hello,
Just a reminder, the NYC Model Transit Association's Model Trolley & Transit Show is coming up, Saturday, June 3. It will be held at:
Saint Augustine of Canterbury School
45 Henderson Rd
Kendall Park, NJ 08824
From 9am till 4pm
Admission: $10 (spouse & children free)
From NYC public transportation: Port Authority Bus Terminal take Suburban Transit's NY to Princeton Line. It runs every 1/2 hour & stops at Henderson Rd (1/2 a block from the school)
Please check our web-site for more details & photos -
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Thanks,
Steve Olsen
Steve, could you perhaps update the website with directions? Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I are planning to attend but we need to know how to find it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A friend and I are also planning to attend if the weather is okay. ( I live in Suffolk County and am not going to make a 160 mile round trip in inclement weather).
Perhaps a time and spot could be set up for all S-T/B-T contributors to meet and greet each other????????
Well, since Mark Feinman will have a table there, perhaps he can suggest a time, with his table as the rendezvous point. Anyone who hasn't purchased any of his videos will be wanting to stop by anyway, and those of us who have will be wanting to stop by for more!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, thanks for the plug - I hope I have enough :)
I'm there all day so the time doesn't matter to me.
How about NOON? That would give those people who are traveling from far distances enough time to make it without having to wake at some ungodly hour .....
--Mark
Noon sounds fine
#9306 WF
See you then!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Very good, then, noon it is. Looking forward to saying hi to old and new friends.
If there's anyone else planning to attend the 2000 Trolley Show in Kendall Park NJ this Saturday (6/3), we're having an informal SubTalk "hello" gathering at my table at NOON.
Maybe I'll throw a "SubTalk Gathering Here" sign up ....
--Mark
Mark,
That sounds great, thanks.
Steve
You know, I was thinking ... since we're meeting at lunchtime, do you think heypaul will remember to bring his grill? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
........heypaul is a vegetarian.......
You can still grill vegetables ....
--Mark
.........on an open pit BBQ?? ...... maybe on a tray or wrapping in foil first corn ever tried that american indian style ??
also i have cooked vegatables on and near a BBQ pit ( I had to seal them up in a metal box and add lots of butter
and water) ..........Also have you ever cooked RED SNAPPER on a BBQ pit ??....I still eat BEEF but not pork!!.....
I am still going to send you that vidieo sorry i have been so busy ....
I have a cooler .... if he brings the grill, I'll bring the dogs ...
--Mark
And I'll help cook eat!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I should be able to handle the load ... I was a short order cook for 6 years through high school and college ... at a kosher chinese restaurant, no less ....
--Mark
Was the restaurant called "So Sue Mi" ? Or was it the restaurant on Ave. S and Flatbush ?
That's Avenue O. It's Avenue R across the street but on that's side of Flatbush it's Avenue O.
Complain to the Kings County Board of Supervisors in 1869.
No, it was Chaap-a-Nosh on Elm Ave & East 15th St (just where Elm & Ave M meet). There used to be a Consumer's Catalog Showroom across the street.
--Mark
I'll bet you guys will be tossed out on your ear if you try to fire up a grill in the middle of that Transit Show! :-)
Why absolutely!
He intends on roasting Thurston, Stef, and myself!!
Doug aka BMTman
Oops.... A cannibalistic railfan? I think we'll be in serious trouble, Doug.
-Stef
Mmmmm ... yum :)
--Mark
Barring any unforeseen emergencies, restored Mid Island Transit Bus #699 (ex-Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority) will be on display at the New York City Model Transit Association show in Kendall Park, New Jersey next Friday and Saturday, June 2nd and 3rd.
At the show, thousands of professional quality 8"x10" photos of subways, elevateds, buses, trolleybuses and railroads, dating from the early 1930s to the 1970s, primarily from the New York City metropolitan area, will be available for purchase.
Is that your bus I always see and marvel at?
--Mark
Wish I can go, but will not be back on East Coast until first week in Nov. Hope something is going on then, beside my High Schools Reunion, and getting Hey Paul to buy me a drink, in exchange for Hawaiian Mac Nuts.
.... stop on over at my table (the one with the 20" TV at eye level playing subway videos), and say hi! Would love to meet some of you in the NY area who follow the board.
--Mark
Just letting everybody know that I'm in the process of riding the entire CTA system in order to write up a line-by-line description for nycsubway.org. On Tuesday I covered the Purple, Brown, and Yellow Lines as well as the northern half of the Red Line. Today I got the Green Line and the rest of the Red Line, and tomorrow I hope to cover the Orange and Blue Lines. The weather has been spectacular the past few days -- great for photographs -- and hopefully my luck will continue through tomorrow. Rain is predicted, but maybe Mother Nature will smile upon me and allow me to complete my quest first.
I've already used up about five rolls of film, and will probably use up at least a couple more tomorrow. I've found that the best way to do a station-by-station description is to ride the train out to its terminal and back, taking photos in one direction and writing down notes for the write-up in the other direction.
This afternoon I had the pleasure of catching up with a small armada of sailboats heading up the Chicago River, with all the drawbridges raising in succession. The Lake Street bridge got stuck in the up position for about 45 minutes, making a mess of the Green Line's schedule. Eventually they began reversing westbound trains at Clark / Lake and sending them back south. I assume they did something similar with the eastbound trains at Clinton, on the opposite side of the river. They eventually got the bridge lowered, and proceeded to raise the bridges at Franklin, Wells, LaSalle, Clark, Dearborn, State and Wabash. (I took off after Wabash, as there was apparently going to be a significant delay before opening Michigan, Columbus and Lake Shore.) I got photos of them all, and hope to have them on my own website soon.
I really can't think of a better way to cap off my seven years in Chicago than seeing these fascinating bridges raised, in addition to riding the L to every corner of this great city and capturing the ride for posterity.
As part of my write-up, I will also be including descriptions and background info of the notable sights, neighborhoods, and landmarks along the routes. (I can't possibly describe the Red Line station at Addison without also throwing in a few words about Wrigley Field, nor the 35th Street Green Line station without mentioning the Mies-designed IIT campus.) This will be more than just a description of the CTA system, it will also be a guided tour of my hometown.
Wish me luck tomorrow... I've already got the photos of my North Side trip developed and scanned, and hope to have the rest done, as well as the write-up, soon after arriving in Boston. You all will be the first to know when it's complete.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>The weather has been spectacular the past few
days -- great for photographs <<<
Lucky Chicago. After a week of rain, NYC broke out in semi-sunshine today and Friday, but the weathermen are going to ship the rain back in for the holiday weekend...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, Kevin. And the weatherman is going to ship HIMSELF back to NYC for Memorial Day. Transit and Weather Together
5-10am and 4-7pm.
David -
You may want to also try to catch the Wendella River Bus between the Canal St. bridge (2 N. Riverside) and the Wrigley Bldg. (400 N. Michigan). On a nice afternoon, the ride is spectacular (not to mention in how many ways it beats a CTA bus).
I just started a new job in the N. Michigan Ave. area this week, and I'm really enjoying that part of the commute.
-- Ed Sachs
Since Chicago has more movable bridges than anywhere else, it is a spectacular sight. Most of the bridges are unmanned and a team of bridgetenders drive from bridge to bridge to convoy ships through, raising no more than one downtown bridge at a time. Transit fans are keen to the Wells street and the Lake Street bridges as these carry the elevated "L" tracks along with the street. The "L" tower 18 overrides the bridgetenders. The city's bridge crew talk marvelously of the "United Lift." For a TV commercial, United Airlines paid to have all the bridges downtown rise simultaneously. Obviously this was done in off traffic hours.
David Harrison
Most of the bridges are unmanned and a team of bridgetenders drive from bridge to bridge to convoy ships through, raising no more than one downtown bridge at a time.
Actually, they usually use two teams, leapfrogging one another. Occasionally, two bridges are in motion at once (one being raised while the previous one is still being lowered).
-- Ed Sachs
........what are thier rules - shooting photography & taking vidieos of the toronto subway system ??
Long ago, I think it was 1947, I rode on a streamlined stainless steel electric (3rd rail, not overhead) two car train in New Jersey. I believe this line had just opened and had only two stations, it was at surface level. Can anyone identify that train?
Can you remember what geographic area of the state it was in?
Was it used for "transit" purposes or something specialized like a fairgrounds monorail might be considered specialized (and not transit).
There's two third-rail operations in the state now, PATH and PATCO. In 1947 the line that is now PATCO was just the line over the Ben Franklin Bridge into Camden. Actually I'm not sure when that opened so 1947 could be plausible. PATH, then H&M, was complete to its current configuration. The PRR joint service to Exchange Place via the H&M meadows trackage used overhead catenary while the H&M used third rail.
The Northeast Corridor PRR route from Penn Station was third-rail electrified from Penn Station NYC to Manhattan Transfer but it was mostly PRR DD-1 locomotives that were spliced onto the front of long haul steam pulled trains. I am not sure when the NEC overhead electrification project took place but it was probably in the late 30s-early 40s. In any event, use of the third-rail was suspended by the time Manhattan Transfer closed and later torn up to the tunnel portal.
I can't think of any other former third rail electric transit operations in NJ.
-Dave
The Delaware River Port Authority train on the Ben Franklin Bridge (Delaware River Bridge at the time) did not run on the surface; it ran over the bridge, then went underground where the bridge comes down. It had two stations in Camden, but both were (are) underground.
I think it opened in 1938.
The bridge was constructed for trolley tracks in the outside lanes, but a line connecting Camden with Philly was never built.
Bob
Thanks for the response, but I do not think this was what I remember. The line I remeber was really a shuttle between two places, possibly with a single track and only one two section vehicle. Was it a prototype test track? At one end I remember high bridges near by, maybe the Pulaski Skyway. The train looked a lot like the Zepher.
A short train in New Jersey running on the surface with ony two stations makes me think of the "Dinky" between Princeton and Princeton Junction. Could that have ever had third rail power? Coud it have appeared to somehow?
It originally ran with steam, then a gas-powered doodlebug. I'm not sure when it was electrified, but the electrification has always been overhead catenary.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess it is possible that the train I rode on was gas powered. I do know there was no overhead electric connection. Thanks for the responses.
The PJ&B (Princton Junction & Back) was electrified as part of the PRR's suburban electrificion in the 19 teens through the 1930's. Anon_e_mouse mentioned steam, neither he or I are old enough to have first hand knowledge of steam on the PRR's NY-Washington line. (Somebody quick!! Get the WayBak machine!) More detective work is needed.
Couple of questions: What time period are we talking about?
What part of New Jersey did this take place?
Dan, at the start of the thread I indicated that this was probably 1947. For a true New Yorker New Jersey beyond Palisades Park was considered the unexplored territory on the other side of the Hudson river, so I am not sure where it was. I seem to remenber an elevated highway over one end of the line. That might have been the Pulaski skyway.
Are we talking about the NYS&W ACF rail car? It ended near the Lincoln Tunnel, and a shuttle bus took the passengers into Manhattan.
Post Script
These rail cars were replaced with RDC in 1950.
I don't know if that is the train I remember. Do you have a description or pictures?
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_rdc_m7a.jpg
I found an interesting picture of a PRR "streamlined" stainless steel thing. Looks diesel/gas powered to me but it's more than two cars. Also based on the design, it looks like a GM fishbowl bus on the sides-- probably 1960s era, not 1947. Anyone know what it is? This picture was taken in Philadelphia 30th St. (that's the Art Museum in the right background) but conceivably it might have run in NJ.
David: What you have there is a picture of one of the three Aerotrains built by EMD in 1955-6. This is probably #1000 which entered service on December 28,1955 on the PRR's Chicago to Pittsburgh run.A second unit #1001 began service on the NYCRR on January 5,1956. Although owned by GM and running as demonstrators on the host railroads both Pennsy and NYC applied there logos to them.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[David: What you have there is a picture of one of the three Aerotrains]
I assume the rear end of the train is pictured. I'd have recognized the front.
Bob
Yes, that's the rear.
Ultimately they were owned by the Rock Island.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i never knew of the aerotrain's existence... i was really surprised to see its bus body appearance... i found some front and side shots of the train on a railroad site
www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel38.html
Some museum out west has it in their collection. I cannot recall the name of the museum but, did see it recently on the History Ch. (in between shows about hitler)
Peace,
ANDEE
i think the museum is in st. louis... it is called the national museum of transportation, or just the museum of transportation... i don't think they have a website, but i think they have a rock island aerotrain in their collection...
(I looked at those pictures. Man that thing is ugly.)
Sort of like a Late 50s caddy with a glandular condition.
Peace,
ANDEE
Ah, the GM Aerotrain. There's a whole chapter dedicated to it in Geoffrey Doughty's book on New York Central's lightweight trains. According to Doughty the PRR's Aerotrain ran between Pittsburgh and New York City so it had to have gone through Jersey. Its cars were based on GM's standard Greyhound bus body. Luggage was even stored under the floors in compartments only acessable from the outside. All this is described in Doughty's book as well as accounts about the Aerotrain's ride (not so good).
Doughty's incorrect in stating that the PRR train ran to NYC - since it wasn't electric it couldn't run through the tunnels. AFAIK it ran only as far as Philadelphia.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It could have used the PRR Exchange Place terminal (an approximate value of "NYC"). In which case it would have passed under the Pulaski Skyway as the original poster remembered....
Theoretically possible, but I don't believe it ever did. It ran on only two regular runs during its time on the Pennsy - Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and Ft. Wayne to Chicago.
The New York Central, on the other hand, tried it on almost every run except the Century during the first two months, after which they exiled it to the Chicago to Detroit local.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Ah, the GM Aerotrain. There's a whole chapter dedicated to it in Geoffrey Doughty's book on New York Central's lightweight trains. According to Doughty the PRR's Aerotrain ran between Pittsburgh and New York City so it had to have gone through Jersey. Its cars were based on GM's standard Greyhound bus body. Luggage was even stored under the floors in compartments only acessable from the outside. All this is described in Doughty's book as well as accounts about the
Aerotrain's ride (not so good).]
Were any of the trainsets preserved?
St Louis and Green Bay each has a set of the LWT1200.
At approx 6AM something happended at Tremont Ave Northbound that closed the local track. Over the radio as we were passing by they were sending a rescue train to pick up the passengers on a New Haven train. Apparently, judging by the number of police and EMS units its possible that someone got runover trying to cross the tracks.
with one track out of commission its going to be a long morning for anyone coming down the New Haven or Harlem lines.
Have a nice long weekend.
Yeah, my train arrived 30 minutes late at Fordham. Some guy was apparently trying to cross the tracks at Tremont, and got hit by the 5:53 New Haven line train. When we passed by Tremont there were lots of cops, and the train that hit the guy was resting on track 1.
At 06:12 A.M. R/46 5940 sporting a Brown Diamond "R" boldly strutted into Queens Plaza heading towards Continential Ave. With that "WhattheHellareyoustareingat" look She swaggered out. I've seen her type before, anything to be different from the run of the mill. She'll get hers eventually, mark my words.
avid
And she probably got a wolf whistle from Odd Couple R32 #3348 (whose bulkhead sign was set to "U"), going in the opposite direction...:o>
Wayne
At 06:12 A.M. R/46 5940, sporting a Brown Diamond "R", boldly strutted into Queens Plaza heading towards Continential Ave. With that "WhattheHellareyoustareingat" look She swaggered out. I've seen her type before, anything to be different from the run of the mill. She'll get hers eventually, mark my words.
avid
Hey Avid,
That's the tootsie I've seen twice before. Posted it about two weeks ago. Still looking like that, eh? Sure an eye opener.
Joe C
I saw it too. To my eyes, it looked a little darker than the "normal" yellow and slightly lighter than "normal" brown found on all the other roll signs. Looks like an error in the production of that R in that particular roll sign box.
Where did they come from.
At one time, almost all streets with trolley tracks had cobblestones. My favorites were at Grand Unions. No not the Supermarket although thats were that name came from. A grand Union was where two trolley lines crossed each other and had almost every manner connection or switching.
I beleive there are several schools of thought as to the cobblestones origins. 1) from penal institutions
2) Ballast from sailing ships.
Now the things fetch a tidy sum to line driveways to the portico.
avid
They were probably made locally. Cobblestones were used to pave streets from the ancient times.
Arti
A grand union is not a "Almost". It is where a streetcar can make a right and left turn from all four directions to all any of the other three. I believe there is one in Toronto at King and Church, maybe.
Your right. Is the one you speak of cobblestone?
avid
I last saw it in 1995, but I think the space between the rails is mostly cobblestone. But I don't really remember.
I was just there. Most of the rails I saw are encased in concrete now. I didn't see any cobblestone.
--Mark
Yes, cobblestones were used as ballast for sailing ships in the 19th century. They were deposited here and were used to pave streets. I live on a cobblestone street and I believe they were there for over 150 years. BTW, I hate it when construction crews slice through the stones to get to underground pipes and cables.
-Daniel
Not only as ballast in ships, but cobblestones were preferred as street paving in the 1800's because they gave good footing for horses, but because they could be easily washed down. They were also better than the alternate paving method, belgian blocks. These were creosorted wood blocks that gave good traction for horses, but wore much faster than stone. Later in the 1800's, fire hardened bricks were employed. Set first in sand, later with concrete, they gave reasonable traction, wore well, and did not impede wheels to the extent that cobblestones did.
Baltimore had miles of brick paved streets, many lasted until the 1970's. When streetcar tracks were removed from North Howard Street in 1940, the street was rebuilt with red brick paving, with yellow brick laid as the center line. Much of this paving was removed for the construction of the Central Light Rail Line and the return of streetcar tracks to Howard Street.
What most people call cobblestones are actually granite or Belgian blocks. These are the cut pieces of granite that are usually used in pavements. Cobblestones, also used as ship ballasts, are more often the random sized (and often round) stones which are much more uneven and harder to walk on. If you're in Phila any time, stop by Dock St between Walnut St and 3rd St to see an actual cobblestone street. It's preserved and, luckily, closed to vehicles, but you can walk on it.
Back in trolley days, it was easier to set tracks in granite block and easy to remove them for maintenance.
A few years ago somebody stole an enormous amount of cobblestones from a few streets in Phila. I guess they planned to sell them. Well, they got caught, tried, and ordered to reinstall them. Not sure if they ever did a satisfactory job installing them.
Where are they?
I heard they were stored on the lower lower levels of GCT in mothballs, but some were damaged in a fire caused by a homeless person.
Any body have the skinney on this.
avid
Except for two at the Danbury RR Museum, I believe thay are all gone.
There is nothing stored under GCT; counter-productive for the railroad and/ or the MTA to do so.
Joe C.
Those Washboards seem to have had a relatively short life.
Weren't they delivered around 1955 and then retired in the early '70's?
Anybody know why they were retired so early? I had heard that they were troublesome on long runs - i.e. GCT-New Haven. Any validity to this? Could this have been cause for early retirement?
I don't know if they were "troublesome" on the longer runs, but they did run GCT-New Haven quite regularly. Used to be a train #372, it left GCT around 4:30 p.m., that seemed to get them most days. An old friend was the engineer, and I'd sometimes ride up to New Haven on Friday nights with him.
They didn't exactly ride very well, so perhaps this might have something to do with why they didn't go to New Haven on many trains. Maybe the real reason is that the NH's electric m.u. shops were at Stamford so it just made more sense to keep them near the shops for inspections, etc.
Before they were scrapped, they were stored in Maybrook freight yard for many years.
AFAIK, there are none stored in GCT, though there was one outside of Stamford station until a few years ago.
The Washboards were, I believe, the first "rectifier" type AC MUs made (beyond experimentals), using water cooled ignitron rectifiers to convert AC to DC. I'm not sure if they were tap changers or firing angle controlled (as the Silverliners and unrebuilt NJ Arrows and I think M-2s were). Basically a scaled up vacuum tube technology, the physical tubes were (then modern) steel envelope, water cooled things, probbably about the size of a small wastebasket. The technology came from welding origionally.
In transit use, the first (stationary) use was the LIRR in the late 20's with their substations, and then the Lacawanna a few years later with their 3kv system. I believe the PRR tested a few MP-54s that were retrofitted with them, but the New Haven was the first equipment actually ordered. The Silverliner (MP-85) cars used them, but in the more modern air cooled variety. I believe all later cars were air cooled. They also had heaters wrapped around them - on cold days, the mercury could condense on the (graphite?) anode, and this was bad - it could actually result in the destruction of the tube...
The New haven I believe had problems with theirs blowing out, and a few Washboards were in fact converted to solid state rectifiers (which were in their infancy at the time - the Westinghouse equipped Metroliners used them and were failures). The cars themselfs were apparently of a composite carbon / stainless steel construction, and this causes corrosion problems (stainless steel doesn't corrode, but apparently also sets up electrolytic (?) effects that basically cause other metals it's bonded to to corrode even faster than normal.) The ride quality wasn't there because of the NH's deferred maintenance, though I can't imagine they were any worse than the LIRR's old diesel fleet in recent years (which could be pretty bad at times).
The British used a slightly different type of rectifier with their early AC locomotives and MUs, which also was not very sucessful (the early 25kv system gave them numerous problems), though the bugs were ultimately ironed out.
The PRR experimented with a few rectifier locomotives in the early 50's, and when they worked, they were great. The E-33 was the first real sucessful one, followed by the E-44, though later E-44s were actually solid state. The EP-5 was the first passenger motor to use them, but the EP-5 wasn't very sucessful, and I believe notorious for catching on fire (though I'm not sure if that's due to bad design, or the technology). The later E-60 is solid state, as is the AEM-7.
I've heard that the M-2s were origionally delivered with ignitrons, but later retrofitted with sillicon controlled rectifiers. I'm not sure if Septa's stuff is SCR or ignitron (certainly the acient MP-85s still floating around could be)
Why this technology? First, it allowed for the use of the equipment on 60hz AC. Second, it allowed the use of DC motors, with their high starting torque. Third, it allows for a continuously variable (in fact, notchless) control. Though these cars had notches on them, they were in fact capeable of sweeping between off and full power smoothly, much like a light dimmer. The controller simply selected which transformer tap was used (thus determining the final voltage and sort of determining the top speed of the car). I have the (operators) manual for the Arrow I cars - even back then, GE had managed some pretty fancy wheelslip control. The Arrow I, BTW, uses 2 air cooled ignitrons per car, along with a few sillicon rectifier assemblies - I'll have to add this to my pile of info I want to plug GE for some day (Including info on the M-2s...)
Interestingly, the Arrow is used genuine Faviliey pans, but the later ones don't....
{I'm not a total expert on these things, so any additions/corrections/comments are more than welcome...}
To David Pirmann: Have you given any consideration to setting up a section containing subway maps. While I don't have back ones, I'm sure that enough exist that you could get quite a collection posted
Actually, the Bd of Transptn and the NYCTA had a good assortment of the years, not to mention the individual operators, although they tended to be "customized" Hagstrom or Geographia maps.
Outside of the NYCTA, you could get Hagstrom, Geographia, Nestors plus some other, lesser-known products. I try to get them all. The disease struck sometime in the late 1950's.
Amazingly, no new maps (or signs) posted for so-called terminal switching of the 2/5 lines.
Joe C.
Are the 2 & 5 switching terminals, or just which one runs express during rush hours? They also don't change the signs or maps until the schedule changes. Usually, they'd rather be late than early. The excuses sound more plausible, viz. "Oh, you've got our OLD map" sounds better than, "Uh we haven't actually begun that service yet...". Also, "Oh we just haven't changed the signs yet" versus "Well that's not true until next week..."
One exeption I can recall. Before they restored Q to Queensbridge the map showed the service with a note and a tiny map showing the actual shuttle service.
Arti
The #2 will run express in the Bronx in AM and PM rush hours, local at other times.
The #5 (Diamond) to/from 238th St will run express in the Bronx in AM and PM rush hours
The #5 (circle) to/from Dyre Avenue will run local at all times except nights (when the shuttle runs).
Expect some sign changes over the weekend. Most of which I am sure will be paper signs which have already been posted. The new maps will most likely not be in circulation until mid-June (it is rare these days that they are out at the beginning of the month).
Odd exception to the 'Çhange maps after the service starts'. I have two maps from September 30, 1990 that show completely different information in the 'Service Changes' box as well as the main map for the Manhattan Bridge.
Have you spent much time looking around the site? Remember, www.nycsubway.org hosts a whole lot more than SubTalk. For a complete list of everything, visit the Table of Contents. Every single page on the site is listed there, organized by topic.
There is a Maps link right on the front page (and in the Contents, etc). Subcategories are:
current route map
track maps
historical maps
transit maps from other systems
fantasy maps
Scanning real maps is hard due to the size but if you want to do some of them I'd be happy to add them to our collection.
-Dave
Today's Times has a long story decrying the noise level in the NY subway. It is interesting to read about all of the elaborate actions that have at times been taken to alleviate noise. Any ideas here on Subtalk as to what else could be done?
I believe that the anti-noise group's discussion of subway noise is out of date.
The big noise is outside the car, especially on older models. You hear it as the train pulls in and out, but that exposure is brief.
Prior to the advent of AC, the windows were open and noise would rattle off the walls of the tunnel and into the car. I remember riding the #1 up the Bronx. I'd long for Dykman Street, where the train went outdoors and the noise dispersed rather than blasting into my ears. Today, no problem -- the windows are closed.
I don't have a decibel meter, but I think the subway number is overstated.
I agree that the means of gathering this info is out of date. All the points you state are accurate. I think they should look into the continual squealing brakes for one thing. The other noise problem stems from the all the high-pitched tinny sounds eminating from all those walkmen (walkmans?). Get in a car with half a dozen of these things and its like a night in the forest with strange creatures
about.
Joe C.
Overall noise is WAY down from say, fifteen years ago. The latest models (R62 class and R68 class) are quieter overall. That's not to say there aren't some noise problems. Almost all trains squeal when they stop. Curve noise is still a problem here and there (to wit. the IRT 7 Avenue from Boro Hall to Chambers) but it's better than it was in the 70s and 80s.
I happen to enjoy curve and wheel noise and am not too thrilled about it being abated.
Wayne
In 1978, the Big Screechers group measured the B train along New Utrecht Ave at 2 db LOUDER than the Concorde.
--Mark
I wonder if anyone ever measured to sound level of an A train of - you guessed it - R-10s at 81st St. uptown. You were guaranteed an earful if you were standing on the platform.
P. S. Was that a B train of R-38s? I understand they were pretty noisy before GOH.
The R38 was one noisy train before their GOH! Much better now with the soundproofing material below the floor. Another noisy train: Non A/C Slant R40s, before the GOH. They were almost as bad as R10s.
wayne
The old un-ACed Slant 40s had their noise level heightened if you were walking through a train of mixed AC and non-AC cars. Having ones with air conditioning and their windows shut made the other cars seem even noisier. The same was true if you could catch one of those rare R-38 trains that had two of the 10 original AC units on it. Much quieter.
IMHO, the only time the R-10s became painfully loud was near the end of their distinguished careers. I never thought they were that noisy when they ran on the A.
All you all speake in terms of pre and post GOH and unAC and AC , but you also leave out Welded Rail. A very big factor in noise. More welded rail equals less noise. So an R/10 didn't seem so noise compared to an unACed pre GOH car as compared to an ACed post GOH car on welded rail.
avid
Finish the welded rail program. Use the "Avid Mated wedge" were appropiate. Sound baffels and absorbing material in the worst spots.Polyetheline pads were metal to metal on rail and tie plates.Windows that remain shut, some keep popping open. Ear plugs
avid
[Finish the welded rail program. Use the "Avid Mated wedge" were appropiate. Sound baffels and absorbing material in the worst spots.Polyetheline pads were metal to metal on rail and tie plates.Windows that remain shut, some keep popping open. Ear plugs]
Yeah, and keep the wheels and rails in better shape. Last time I was in the London underground (many years ago), it was virtually silent.
I like the comment about warning signs. It will make NY like California, where you get warned with a sign about almost anything.
You can't board an airplane without seeing a sign that warns
about the dangers of alcohol, or go into a enectronics supply store
without a sign that says that some of the chemicals may cause cancer..
Bill
Some stations on Philly's MFL have what appears to be noise-baffling material under the platform edges. 13th St Station comes to mind. I don't know for sure that the material I've seen is for that purpose, but it seems like the most likely explanation.
49th Street on BKT Broadway has some kind of noise-baffling done, It's actually quite weird to be there.
Arti
So that's why the curve sprayers at South Ferry were fixed recently! The TA must of heard about the story and decided to take some action. If anything, the sprayers make it worse, since without the squeal all you hear is the roar (Union Square especially). By the way, isn't it harmful to have water shooting up at the underside of a train as it rolls over the one at South Ferry? It used to spray continuously after a train left and stop when the next approaches; now it sprays as a train approaches and goes over it in quick short bursts.
Has noise baffling and sound absorbing materials been a feature of any station renovation?
49th Street on Broadway.
Arti
Even as far back as Bowling Green, from the look of it.
???
Arti
The ceilings at Bowling Green seem to be designed to disperse noise.
[Has noise baffling and sound absorbing materials been a feature of any station renovation?]
Some years back they added cinderblocks between the local and express tracks at some IRT stations. Before they did it, the noise from a passing express was incredibly loud, but after they did it, the noise from a passing express was incredibly loud.
[Before they did it, the noise from a passing express was incredibly loud, but after they did it, the noise from a passing express was incredibly loud. ]
So nothing changed.
Arti
[So nothing changed.]
Well, I'm exaggerating a bit. I'm sure there was some sound abatement, but subjectively it's still noisy as hell.
The noisiest part of a subway car outside of the car-track interface is the HVAC system. In fact, this is the greatest source of interior noise. How many people are willing to do without AC for the sake of noise reduction? Noise is just something else to complain about now that OTP is improved, graffiti is under control and the station environment is improving.
Well, in New York, constructive criticism doesn't really exist. Complaints are the way these things are expressed.
Seriously, nothing is wrong with urging a good system to get better. Make the system a little quieter and it will be more pleasant to take the subway, and more people will take it.
Actually subway/train noise is nowhere near as bothersome as traffic noise. A walk in Midtown today is an ordeal, even on beautiful days like Friday, becasue of screeching sirens, impatient drivers honking horns (cabbies are the worse culprits) and construction. The city has given up on trying to control the number of cars that enter the city, if it ever did put forth an effort. Has the Times ever done a special on that?
www.forgotten-ny.com
In the Midtown I've wxperienced traffic noise caused by trucks as bad that I was unable to hear anything while on my cell phone.
Arti
[In the Midtown I've wxperienced traffic noise caused by trucks as bad that I was unable to hear anything while on my cell phone.]
They really ought to do something about diesel noise, horns, booming radios, and those damn car alarms. But they don't seem to care.
[They really ought to do something about diesel noise, horns, booming radios, and those damn car alarms. But they don't seem to care. ]
I think the diesel noise is the worst, especially in slow traffic because its continuous but that's one thing the least can be done.
Arti
[I think the diesel noise is the worst, especially in slow traffic because its continuous but that's one thing the least can be done.]
Only thing worse is the noise from my computer!
In some neighberhoods, honking isn't aloud. There's a fine, either $100 or $200, but I don't know if it's enforced or not.
>>>In some neighberhoods, honking isn't aloud. <<<
You made an unintentional pun there!
I love the signs surrounding Washington Square Park ....
"Unnecessary Noise Prohibited".
--Mark
[In some neighberhoods, honking isn't aloud. There's a fine, either $100 or $200, but I don't know if it's enforced or not.]
They passed a law some years ago making it illegal, but AFAIK it's never enforced
There were a few inaccuracies in the NY Times article.
First, the measurement technique shown in the figure should flunk any student taking his first accoustics lab. The student MUST keep the microphone away from any object that might reflect or absorb sound waves - such as himself in order to get an accurate reading. The preferred technique is to hold the instrument at arm's length to one's side. Another observer, standing behind the holder, looks over his shoulder and records the data. The instrument manufacturer designed the instrument so that the microphone is detachable from the unit. The detached microphone can be mounted on a tripod away from any object likely to cause reflections. This permits single person operation. Depending on the nature of the noise source and transmission path readings taken as shown in the NY Times photograph can be 10 db off.
Second, the greatest incentive to any company or agency to limit noise exposure is the Federal Public Contract (Walsh-Healy) Act. It has prohibited any entity from doing business in excess of $1 million with the US Government from exposing its workers to excessive noise for excessive durations as a condition for accepting such contract. The proscribed maximum limits of exposure per day, as detailed by the CFR, are as follows: 90 dbA - 8 hrs; 92 dbA - 6 hrs; 95 dbA - 4 hrs; 97 dbA - 3 hrs; 100 dbA - 2 hrs; 102 dba - 1 1/2 dbA; 105 dbA - 1 hr; 110 dbA - 1/2 hr and 115 dbA - 1/4 hr. There are also formulae for calculating combined exposure limits at different noise levels throught the day. These limits were chosen because exceeding them results in non-recoverable hearing loss. Contrary to what NYCT lawyers may think, this law is still operative.
Third, doubling of sound level results in a 6 db gain not the 10 db implied in the article. The actual human perception of sound levels vs. actual physical levels depends on the number of reference points presented when asking subjects to supply a sould level metric.
The new equipment is quieter than its replacement. However, there is one critical area in which NYCT practices has made the environment noisier.
There are three principal methods for noise control: reduce the noise source; attenuate the noise transmission and finally add sound absorbing materials to reduce reverberation. Subway noise travels through both air and solids. In the case of the noise generated from the car/track interface transmission through solids (aka vibration) is the principal mode. The method for reducing such transmission is to accoustically isolate the sould source from its surroundings means of a resilient material. This used to be provided by 12" of rock ballast on the IRT and BMT lines. The IND was built with half ties locked into the concrete - which is a very good medium for sound transmission. The IND lines were always noiser. The NYCT has successfully undertaken a program to bring the older lines up to this standard. The 3/8" rubber pads used on which the rails rest do not attenuate sound transmission as much a foot of the old rock ballast. Anyone doubting the importance of such this transmission path should recollect his experience with a new car and how it becomes noisy once its rubber engine mounts become brittle and loose their sound attenuation property.
Although I am a big fan of traditional ballasted (Type 1 as they
say in the TA) track, I dispute that the principal means of
transmission of the high-pitched squealing that was the subject
of the NYT article is via conduction through the track. Not
at those frequencies. I would meet you half way though and agree
that the concrete roadbed reflects the sound whereas the the loose
stone would tend to absorb it.
I was pleased to see that the TA is going to try top-of-rail friction
modifiers. Evidently they read Railway Track & Structures too.
I'd say you're right about transmission paths insofar as it applies to high frequencies. There are any number of relatively inexpensive materials that will trap high frequencies effectively--I'm not sure what you could use on the bed that wouldn't be either a fire or cancer hazard; I wonder if you could mount shrouds above the wheels?
My wife and I will be vacationing in York Harbor, Maine this weekend, Saturday morning to Monday evening. While there, we plan to visit the Seashore Trolley Museum. I was wondering if anyone familiar with the museum could tell me if there is anything special happening at the museum on one of those days which would make it a better day to visit. Also, as a member of other Transit/Trolley museums, do I qualify for an admission discount?
Since we're flying to Boston & renting a car for the rest of the trip, I was wondering if there are there any traffic hazards I should generally avoid between BOS & Maine (Big Dig, etc.)? Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
KP
Good questions... and here are some answers:
If you are a member of a sister museum, show your membership card and you should get complimentary admission.
I'll be at Seashore on Saturday, but probably not until late afternoon. Saturday is our "Annual Meeting" day, and there should be lots of activity. There is a members' dinner (off property) at 6pm, so there may not be much happening during the evening. Sunday should be a busy day too. Traditionally, Memorial Day Monday is much slower, but you'll find a good selection of cars to ride, and frequent tours of the grounds.
As far as road travel is concerned, if you're flying into Logan, you will be north of the Big Dig and it won't affect you at all. The trip up Route 1 to get to I-95 can be a bit slow, but once you get on I-95 you'll do OK. However Saturday of Memorial Day weekend has been known in the past to have heavy traffic heading to Maine, with jams especially at the Portsmouth, NH tolls, and also the York tolls in Maine. But you should make it from Logan to Seashore in 1-1/2 to 2 hours if there are no major back-ups.
Have a great time, and if you are there Saturday around 4 or 5 pm ask around for me... it's always great to meet a fellow SubTalker.
So is Shoreline a sister Musuem or do I stick to my AAA discount?
Of course Shoreline is a sister Museum! And so is Warehouse Point, Baltimore, TMNY, Orange Empire, Illinois Railway Museum, and on, and on...
Are the M-3's slower than the M-1's? I think I heard somehwere M-1's have a higher top speed. Whenever I have an M-3 the ride seems slower.
Also why do LIRR trains blow their horn when entering the east river tunnel portals?
They blow the horn just to warn anyone that might have walked into the tunnel that a train is coming. It is standard practice on most railroads; you hear it all the time on UP/BNSF freights around the tunnels in the vicinity of Tehachapi Loop in California, etc.
And on the PATH when it is approaching the portal from either direction.
>>>They blow the horn just to warn anyone that might have walked into the tunnel that a train is coming<<<
The trains are moving very fast as they enter the tunnel. Do track workers have a lot of clearance they can duck into? I imagine this is a self-answering question, since I never hear of any fatalities. Still, the train is at a sufficient speed that I never get a good look at those LIRR tunnels.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The tunnel speed is 60-70 MPH.
Well it felt like we were going slower than that. The engineer kept hitting the brakes the moment we entered the tunnel, and the train that was supposed to get into Penn at 10:19am didn't make it till 10:30am, the result of going slower than normal the whole way from Mineola. And with adding the fact that the first 4 cars (I was in the first) did not arrive on the platform, I didn't get off the train till 10:40am. Was there a train in front of us or does the engineer not care about keeping his train on schedule?
>>>Was there a train in front of us or does the engineer not care about keeping his train on schedule? <<<
Most likely the former. If I'm not wrong the LIRR uses Tracks 16-21, only six tracks, in non-rush hours and there are only two Manhattan bound tunnels so sometimes delays do occur.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The M-3s are heavier but also have more than 10% more horsepower than the M-1s. It's pretty close to a wash. Since they MU well together, I'd say they both operate at the same speed.
Having borrowed to the limit (about $30 billion), NYC is in the process of cutting off its capital plan. I wonder how this will affect the Manhattan Bridge?
My understanding is that the city has the money to complete existing work, but not to enter into any new contracts. Will the restoration of the A/B tracks be cancelled, and trains forced to run on the H tracks alone until THEY start cracking again?
No knowledge, but whatever they do they better have the money to keep those bridges maintained. The Williamsburgh mess a few years ago proved that. Can you imagine the money they'd have to shell out to build replacement crossings and demolish existing ones?
I was on the 7 Train yesterday the 14:28, when me and the M/M saw alot of 7 Trains one behind the other. It was to the point where one 7 Train would leave 103rd corona plaza and then around 20-30 seconds later another 7 would enter. Me and the Motorman said Whoa at the same time. The 7 when it is backed up runs tighter than the Queens Boulevard Express, Where an F leaves say Queens Plaza, and 55-60 seconds later an E comes in and the Homeball clears to Proceed with caution on Main route. But this problem on the 7 line had homeballs still red when the 7's entered each station.
ya know them redbirds... eager to run..
can't stand still for long...
color="red"> test
color="green"> hello
color="blue"> test
Howard, you need to use
font color="red"
etc.
Why doesn't anybody PREVIEW???
BTW, next time anybody wants to test their HTML skills, use Notepad and a web browser.
The 7 line is by the way the International Express because of the many diversed ethnic and cultural groups. Many, not only asian ride that train. The diversed neighboorhood is the reason it got its nickname.
What should we called the other lines? G-Ganster's paradise?
Brighton trains? Russian local/express
LIRR- Aryan lines?
I was changing planes at Dulles today, and noticed that the "mobile lounges" have bodies made by Budd in 1962- complete with the "washboards". Then it dawned on me that they are just really wide versions of the R32. Really, REALLY wide.
;-)
Dave
Right you are about the mobile lounges. And guess what? Older versions of jetbridges that connect the terminal to the plane have 600v controllers too. (I wonder if they've done away with the field shunt...)
Wow, that I didn't know -- cool!
Enjoy them while they last. A subway to connect all the terminals is going to be built sometime soon. Hopefully, the orange line will go there at that time since right now, only the fantasy Hirsch Rail A train goes to the airport.
I've been thinking about people's failure to close HTML tags and other things, and I was thinking what's the easiest way to solve the problem.
I think the webmaster (when he has the time) should force any message that has HTML in it to automatically preview, regardless of the button clicked. I don't know how hard this would be to implement, but it would certainly stop those annoying scrolling response boxes.
Those of us who always remember to close our tags would be punished for the actions of the few. Color, size, and simple text formatting tags are all I mostly use, so I rarely have to preview. I don't think I've ever forgotten to close the tags. It would be less annoying if the tags were stripped or automatically closed. Maybe in the page for each post have this: [/font][/b][/i][/u>[/s]... etc. between the message and responses list to cover any unclosed tags. Pigs: Yes I know that [] should be <>, I just haven't figured out how to keep the damned things from disappearing.
Use < for < and > for >
Oh, and for & use &
For & use &amp;
Anyway, previewing is not painful, it should be done no matter what you do to prevent the sting of careless errors. HTML errors will clearly be noticed, and it's only ONE MORE CLICK. It's not like you have to scroll down to check a box and then scroll up to sign a release form, then print and mail.
Also you could substitute Alt + 0139 and 0155 to get these similar brackets ‹›. Close enough for people to get the idea. (Remember, this works with the right Alt key and number pad only.)
And remember to have NUM LOCK activated.
I forgot to mention the autoclosure proposal you made:
It would be nice if the system could close any tags you opened and forgot to close, but this may involve some level of programming and I have no right to force anyone to do it as I don't know what's involved. Just putting them in automatically is unwieldly and would require a LOT to close every possible tag. Also, it might wreak havoc with some browsers, like those that will display a tag that is closing nothing.
...wreak havoc with some browsers...
Solution: Conform to the majority with browsers without that problem.
...putting them in automatically is unwieldly and would require a LOT to close every possible tag...
Only the most common ones, like text formatting and marquees.
It's a stupid idea, it would also cause problems with people who do close their tags.
I don't know if its just me (or WebTV) but I have more html trouble when I DO preview my post. Alot of times when I used to preview extra spaces would appear (especially from one line to another) and the html would not show up. But when I hit "Post Message-click once" the html always shows up.
This problem wouldn't happen, the preview message is supposed to look exactly like the posted message. That's assuming you actually click the post button in that message as opposed to go back and clicking post in the original form. In that case, you're normally supposed to get a "Duplicate Submission" message, unless you change the formatting. In the case of WebTV, it could involve the way the system reloads cached form data. So always use the Post message button in the preview window, never go back to post, unless changes are being made and then preview anyway.
This problem wouldn't happen, the preview message is supposed to look exactly like the posted message. That's assuming you actually click the post button in that message as opposed to go back and clicking post in the original form. In that case, you're normally supposed to get a "Duplicate Submission" message, unless you change the formatting. In the case of WebTV, it could involve the way the system reloads cached form data. So always use the Post message button in the preview window, never go back to post, unless changes are being made and then preview anyway.
I actually think it's a good idea, because the use of bad HTML bugs me as well. Have thought a little on how it would be done. Unfortunately the current software doesn't parse the message in any way BEFORE deciding what to do with it (it just does what you tell it with the buttons). Every message would have to be parsed before posting adding a little bit of overhead to the system (but probably nothing significant). I'm going to look around for a small HTML validation routine in Perl, I'm not going to try and write one myself. If I can find one and get it in the code easily enough....
font color="red"
test
I think you wanted something like this? Eh?
You need to use HTML HEXADECIMAL color codes.
-Daniel
And always close your HTML tags. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
and always PREVIEW.
And stop clogging the board with HTML tests, you can use preview for testing, and if you have a computer, you have notepad and a web browser.
Today is a great day to take photos. I went to BWI Rail Station to shoot my favorite locomotives-- AEM7s.
I was not disappointed today. AEM7AC 924 hauled NortheastDirect #85 today. Not only I took some pictures on it, I saw a certificate plate on the side of AEM7AC 924 and then took a picture on it. I asked the engineer the performance of AEM7AC 924, and he said it ran very well.
After Train #85 left, there came Metroliner 126. Look which locomotive hauled that train? AEM7AC 916 again! As usual I took a picture on AEM7AC 916, but AEM7AC 916 did not have a certificate plate on its side.
I should go to 7-Eleven to buy a lottery ticket.
Chaohwa
Consider yourself lucky. Today I went afterschool to the NEC hoping to see an AEM7AC, but All I got were a bunch of F40PHs, PATH trains, Arrow MUs, Comets, an E60, AEM7 926, 912, and 906. 912 was the first Acela livery one I ever saw! It and 906 was pulling Acela Regional 138 (I think) from DC to Boston this afternoon. I also saw an Acela cafe stuck in the middle of a Metroliner. I just noticed, Acela regional trains are long!
But I got a good vantage point for photos today. I ws at Harrison NJ, and found the door leading out onto the tracks of th NEC open, so I was actually able to stand on the PATH and Amtrak tracks to shoot. It gave me an adrenaline rush just being there.
-Daniel
The Acela Regional train was Train #132.
AEM7 926 hauled Metroliner 121 today, but it was 20 minutes late when it arrived at BWI Rail Station.
Daniel, if you waited for more than 20 minutes, you would see AEM7AC 924 pulled Train #85 today.
Chaohwa
HTML can be very useful when illustrating points (formatting for emphasis), colouring line names, eg. the Blue line, linking to various things like images, other sites, online newspaper articles etc.
Click to load picture.
However, if you aren't sure if your code works, leave it out as a preventative measure against problems.
Thank you,
-Robert King
As Pigs of Royal Island told me, you can liminate the annoying xoom ad banner on all your pages by adding _XMCM to the URL.
por ejemplo, http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/username/pagename.html
I am also a xoom.com user. And NONE of my pages have that annoying banner on the top.
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail/lirr.html
-Daniel
I suppose you mean eliminate...
I've known this for quite a while. I used it in one of the frames, to prevent the eyesore bar from loading twice (this is legitimate).
However, I don't want to break the terms of service and risk having my site pulled down as I don't really want to set it up again elsewhere. One of my friends had that happen to him all of a sudden without even recieving a warning letter from Xoom concerning their dispute with him beforehand, which was the elimination of the nusiance frame.
Par example, Urban Rails (Robert King's Webpage) will load it sans la annoying advertising.
-Robert King
Par example, Urban Rails (Robert King's Webpage) will load it sans la annoying advertising.
Not for everybody. Xoom.com does some funny things with their servers. The /_XMCM/ trick produces 404 errors for those of us who use privacy or caching proxies to strip the browser identification and referer tags. On the bright side, those of use who use privacy proxies never see the Xoombar in the first place.
Wierd.
CH.
also, you must ALWAYS use the filename:
So instead of http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail
use http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail/index.html (or index.htm whichever one it is)
I always use the file name anyway, as it is not a standard index.htm which will load up when no file is specified.
The file to load on my site is main.htm; the name arising out of habit from too much C++ programming.
Also, since it is so much trouble to cheat out of the Xoom frame, when the cheat itself leads to problems with people who have their computers set up so that they don't see it anyway, and the fact that cheating out of the Xoom frame breaks their rules which could lead to your page being pulled down, why would I bother going to all that trouble, when it is much simpler just to ignore the little grey band at the top of the browser window which is quite unobtrusive compared to the little windows that Geocities and Tripod pop up which announce themselves every time you click on something.
-Robert King
also, you must ALWAYS use the filename:
So instead of http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail
use http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/nyrail/index.html (or index.htm whichever one it is)
I always use the file name anyway, as it is not a standard index.htm which will load up when no file is specified.
The file to load on my site is main.htm; the name arising out of habit from too much C++ programming.
Also, since it is so much trouble to cheat out of the Xoom frame, when the cheat itself leads to problems with people who have their computers set up so that they don't see it anyway, and the fact that cheating out of the Xoom frame breaks their rules which could lead to your page being pulled down, why would I bother going to all that trouble, when it is much simpler just to ignore the little grey band at the top of the browser window which is quite unobtrusive compared to the little windows that Geocities and Tripod pop up which announce themselves every time you click on something.
-Robert King
Or just to embed sound........
listen
shhh...
quiet, listen...
To those youngsters out there, that's what pre war trains sounded like!! (R1-9's, BMT Standards, hi&low V's, pre-war electric LIRR coaches, etc, etc, etc)
Geez ... with you repeating it, the very start of it sounds like someone's SNORING :)
--Mark
Nothing there, Sarge. Except the woids. And the dots. I guess you need to try it again.
No its working. Ya gotta give the .wav time to load.
Nope, no wave ever came up, as I have the correct plug-ins for every type of audio file on the Web. That's why I posted what I did. BTW, every other wave file you've embedded has played after the load time.
There are some differences how you code for sound between Netscape and IE. I use Netscape, and the sound did not play automatically. I viewed the HTML source, then cut and pasted the wave file locator to hear it.
the marquee tag is also an IE only function. Blink is Netscape-only, I believe, but the latest version of IE supports it.
-Hank (midspan on the Goethals Bridge)
Hank:
Are you driving while using your Palm??
Nope. Dad's driving. I sold the Palm, and upgraded, bigtime. I know use a laptop and a cellular phone, at least off-peak. I can surf as long as my batteries hold out (the cell phone is the battery I worry about)
-Hank
The best way to use HTML here is to preview your post first before posting it officially. Never post anything with HTML unless you've previewed it and it works to your satisfaction.
That's why I made my PROPOSAL
Basically, it forces the system to give you a preview regardless of which button you press (post or preview).
With all this new equipment like AEM7ACs and Acela Expresses, are the days of the E60 numbered? The E60 wasn't a very efficient design for the NEC (although it works fine in mine to power plant RRs). Amtrak sold a number of them already. Does anyone know the fate of the E60 after all the new locos enter Acela service?
-Daniel
Who did amtrak sell them to?
NJ Transit has some (now all retired), the others that Amtrack have disposed of have, AFAIK, been sold for scrap.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think 2 went to a mine-to-power line in Texas,but don't quote me. I believe it was in Trains within the last few months.
-Hank
Originally, Amtrak wanted to sell out the E60s to Conrail, but when freight electrification from the PRR was dismatled, the plan as junked.
Two Amtrak E60CHs (966 & 968) were sold in 1982 to the Navajo Mine in New Mexico--a mine to power plant RR. They were renumbered LOE20 & LOE 21. in 1983 958-963, 967, and 971-973 were sold to NJ Transit.
Amtrak now only had 13 E60CHs (600-613).
-Daniel
Actually, the roster of E60s are 600-610, 620, and 621.
Chaohwa
It wasn't exactly Conrail's doing that got rid of the electric freight. Blame Amtrak. You can also blame a lack of maintainence on the cantenary that WASN'T on the NEC. Too expensive a proposition to replace all that power line, fuel was no longer 'expensive', and electricity was getting there. While I'd like to see electric mainline freight in the US sometime in my life, I don't expect to see it anytime soon, especially with the advent of the double-stack container train.
-Hank
I'm not sure I see many advantages for electric freight here. Its hard to imagine any cost advantage any time soon. And environmentally, I am not seeing much advantage, unless new non-fossil fuel generating capacity is brought on line. One primary environmental advantage to electrifying, say, rapid transit is that you do not have to haul around all the fuel and the generating engine. But in freight service, you want the locomotive to be heavy! A modern electric freight locomotive would have to have all sorts of weight added to its design. And new AC locomotives are pretty efficient and burn pretty clean.
I'll bet we see fuel cell powered locomotives within 20 years but very very little freight electrification within the next 50.
05/27/2000
Does anybody know what became of those mothballed E-60's NJ Transit stored between Dover and Denville ?
Bill "Newkirk"
Daniel, this is a very good pictures. When did you take it, morning or afternoon? Did you take it from the LIRR platform?
Chaohwa
I took this (and others) at Hunters Point Avenue in Queens. From where I ws standing, the entrance to tube #2 going under the East river was about 200 feet behind me. This was taken at around 11:00 am in January. I actually jumped off the LIRR platform onto the tracks to get the angle I wanted. The only thing I had to worry about was tripping over the third rail!
I feel that shots taken from a station platform are not as good as ones taken from track level. Track level shots make the train look bigger and more real.
I ould probably devolop my latest roll today or tomorrow of several trains I saw yesterday on the NEC standing on the PATH tracks. (Call me the intrepid type)
-Daniel
We shouldn't endorse illegal activites as tresspassing onto railroad properties. This gives Railfans a bad name and even when a railfan is not breaking the law causes the authorites to be called.
IMHO
[This gives Railfans a bad name and even when a
railfan is not breaking the law causes the authorites to be called]
I'm not too worried about it.
-I've walked through the tracks at the yard at Hoboken and the other NJT workers say good morning to me.
-When I was in Sunnyside yard, and Amtrak cop asked me what I was doing, and when I saud I was taking pictures, he said "have fun".
(Another Amtrak worker on a break let me into an E60)
-What I was at the NEC yesterday, the TO of the PATH train smiled and waved at me when he passed me (alhough he did blare his horn). I was only about two yards from the track with nothing in between too.
-The guard at the SBK interchange yard let me photograph the scrapped subway cars.
-Daniel
STILL illegal. STILL dangerous. Still gives the 99% of us railfans who WON'T improperly enter restricted areas a bad name. There was a cover shot in Trains a while back, and several readers wrote in about how the photo should never have been run, since the photographer was standing on the tracks, in front of a tunnel portal, directly in the path of the train he photographed. Obtain written permission before entering restricted areas. It makes it a hell of a lot better for the rest of us.
-Hank
There was a controversial Steve Barry photo within the last year or two fitting the above description. He got a lot of flack for it. Turned out it was a telephoto shot and he wasn't on the track at all.
Bob
Yes but the above poster stated he jumped down from the platform onto a track in service and then joked about 600 volts of 3rd rail. Unsafe as well as tresspassing all to get a shot at track level.
Don't brag about it if you do it, it is your choice.
Alright alright, I'll try to refrain from trespassing, but I hate taking pictures from behind a fence. If someone could tell me a good place (non-platform) to watch the NEC, tell me. I also plan to buy a 300mm telephoto lens for my camera which would come in handy and substitute the trespassing.
NOW, can someone tell me when and what is going to happen to all the E60s?
-Daniel
The former Frankford Junction station in Philly is a good track-level location for photographing the NEC.
I've always wanted to see short from the around MIDWAY or GRUNDY towers. there's even an ond abandonned station at MIDWAY.
Near Elizabeth some backyards lead into the NEC with no fence (Amtrak). Saw a resident standing 4 feet from the train videoing. I think there is a narrow section of non-private property you can walk through to get from the street to the tracks. If you need track level areas for the LIRR Main Line between Jam and NYP, go to the entrance to the Rockaway ROW at 64th Rd. S. of the RR and walk left along the tracks, following the bedsheet.
To Lou from Brooklyn, I believe that is 750 volts.
No, its 600 and anywhere on SEPTA is good for tracklevel shots because SEPTA dosen't believe in hi-level platforms.
It's 750 on the LIRR and MNR.
Subways (except SF which is 1000) are 600.
SIR is 650v
-Hank
DC's Metrorail is also 750 Volts DC.
Chaohwa
didn't the PRR install 660 (600)? Why did the LIAR change it? After all the PRR new best.
Over time, it needed to be upgraded. Cars now have more powerful motors, they're longer, they're air conditioned. All of this requires more current, and thus more voltage to overcome the resistance. SIR was upgraded from 550 to 600, and now 650 as the trains got longer (from 3-car 67' to 2 and 3-car 75', now the occasional 5-car 75') Of course, when the MTA took over the SIR, the electrical infrastructure was decrepit.
-Hank
As Henry mentioned, all SEPTA stations have track-level platforms south of Trenton and north of Newark, DE (south of Wilmington, DE).
I recommend Bristol, PA. That is a pretty nice place to shoot trains. I also went to Eddystone, Prospect Park, and Chester. They are not as good as Bristol. Especially Chester, it is like a ghosttown.
Although I never go to Newark, Deleware to take pictures, there is a lot of freight train action, it is worth going there to take pictures.
Chaohwa
yes he should brag aboot it. i have never had the gumption to jump down onto 3rd rail'd track to take a picture. Now that Mr. flange has proven that it can be done i might get up enough nerve to do it one day. he is an inspriation to railfans everywhere. He'll do anything for a shot.
-keep the dream alive.
Why? Are the two of you in competition for the Darwin Award?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For the Darwin you have to be stupid enough to tough the 3rd rail or get hit by the train.
Oh stop being a stick in the mud. its only illegal if you get caught and thanks to radio scanners ans stealth its very unlikley.
And thanks to idiots such as yourself, keeping lawyers (sorry, JB) in business. So, you get away with it. Someone sees you get away with it, tries it themselves, and the end result is spaghetti.
Stop being a moron, play by the rules.
-Hank
man, you are so lucky. I was walking on the access road to the crew building at Dover NJ taking pictures of the trains in the yard and some ass hole started yelling at me over the PA system. the sign only said "no unauthorized vehicles" and the last time i checked i was not a vehicle. i was even walking back to my car at the time away from the crew building when the jerk desided to start yelling. i was tempted to sneak back and change the safety sign to "1 days with out an accident".
The tests of HHL-8 also determine when E60 are going to retire. I haven't heard about HHL-8s for a long time. I was told that the maximum speed of HHL-8, like E60, is restriced to 90 mph.
Is the speed restriction lifted yet?
Chaohwa
.Exelent picture!!! next time you're tresspassing try to work in F tower or a PRR signal.
If anyone can tell me what these two green dieselas are, where they are from and why they are in Sunnyside yard, PLEASE TELL ME. Any info is appreciated. I found these in January of this year.
-Daniel
Those engines are NY&A MP15AC 155 and SW1001 106. The building photo in the picture is the NY&A engine shop. NY&A engines routinely show up to YARD A, not Sunnyside yard, for scheduled maintenance.
It seems that MTA/NYC Transit may be rethinking their plan
to end the Dyre Ave Thru Express and Running #2 Thru Expresses
during rush hours in the peak direction. Local political leaders
were not informed of the proposed change and local riders didn't
have a clue. Thousands signed petitions, wrote to politicians and contacted media outlets. Early this week the Notice signs came of the #5 trains, and today, the Service Change Notice has been removed from the MTA website. It may be just a temporary delay, but the Tuesday, 5/30 effective date is no longer valid.
Here come the supplement schedules!
NIMBYism back in full force. Screw a majority of riders who would benefit from a new service plan simply because a minority can't deal with a minor inconvienence. The Dyre Ave. line SHOULD be the local train south of E180th St.
Half the #5 rush hour thru-express trains run on the White Plains line. White Plains riders have a choice of local or express. The straphangers who board at Dyre, Baychester, Gun Hill, Pelham Pkwy and Morris Park deserve the same. When it's standing room only, an extra 10 minutes can seem like an eternity. The Dyre line stations are poor,
Pelham Pkwy has never had a PA system, the token booths are unmanned after 8 pm, and the rolling stock is aged redbirds. We should not be second class citizens. Thanks to Assemblyman Jeff Klein for fighting for the Dyre Express.
The Dyre Ave. line carries less pasangers, has fewer stations for a quicker run into Manhattan and uses basically the same rolling stock as the White Plains Rd. #2 line. The #5 specials to/from 238th St account for only 25% of #5 service in the Bronx. It takes exactly the same amount of time to get from 242nd. St to E180th St via the thru express as it takes the Dyre Ave train running local. So that pretty much shoots down all your points.
what i was trying to find out is about the express service on # 5 like thru gun hill road ( station ) etc.........
is the center track used for express service etc......sure would look good on a railfan vidieo ( the type i shoot this fall )...
No, the express track along White Plains Rd. north of E. 180th St. is normally not used.
I left the Dyre Ave section of the Bronx a tad over 12 years ago. Up to that point I rode the #5 out of Dyre, which was Thru Express, along with the 238th/ 241st #5. When was the Dyre 5 made local?
In the '60's, when the 2 & 5 switched terminals, the center track northe of 180th was used primarily for lay-ups. It was a shame it was not used for expresses; what a heck of a ride it was when it was used. Even the lo-v's did it justice.
Joe Caronetti
Chris,
I knew that the local politicians and the communities would prevail.
The MTA fouled up royally by not making public hearings known on a wide spread basis. I can just imagine the Chaos at E180th St and at 149th-GC during the AM/PM rush hours had this gone through.
(just for the record, I am in the NE Bronx and use the #6 daily, the #5 only on occasion). When the MTa came to my community to try to drastically change bus service they were put in their place.)
The Dyre situation is not a case of NIMBY, but rather a case of very poor planning on the part of so called transit professionals who think that they can get away with anything. Remember when they tried to close the Franklin Av Shuttle permanently? They never bothered to properly consult the community for its needs. Result?? The Shuttle has been completely rebuilt.
It the TA wants to cut delays at the East because of all the switching that is needed the why don't they put the trains from the WP line down the spur track (a/k/a scenic route) and then bring the trains into the Downtown platform while bringing Dyre Trains in the regular way and crossing over just before the station. tHey have done it during emrgencies, why not as a part of normal service.
Just my 2 cents (and I have change coming).
It's not poor PLANNING. If anything, it's poor COMMUNITY RELATIONS. The plan is a sound one, in that it eliminates the bottleneck at the E. 180th Street station and puts the least-used service (the Dyre Avenue #5) on the local track. It sounds, however, as if little or no information was given to the affected communities beforehand.
David
Which is perfectly understandable, as these people are howling over a minor delay into their trip. Why is the MTA such a slave to community pressure? Perhaps it's time for the MTA to say "We are doing it, there's nothing you can do to stop it, and you'll adjust" ...
If the MTA said they they would lose every time. A lot of the Bronx politicians are on the NY Senate Finance committee (you know they one that allots $ for projects). They would simply threaten to block any future funding and the MTA falls into line. It has happened before and will happen again.
The MTA's supposed to serve the public. MTA gets federal funds. We pay federal taxes. The same with the state and city. And most of the cost of a trip comes from the farebox. We are the fare-paying customers. Finally, the MTA board is appointed mostly by the Governor and the Mayor, officials elected by the people.
Assemblyman Jeff Klein is serving his constituants/neighbors who ride the #5 as Klein once did. Jeff Klein and other volunteers painted the Pelham Pkwy Station over 10 yrs ago who he was a member of Community Planning district 11. It hasn't be painted since. It took years to fix a leaky roof (not well), and the station has no PA system, and no open token booth after 8:30. And we're supposed to defer to the MTA's management and technical expertise??
Neither is your point well-taken. If the Dyre Av. line has "a quicker run into Manhattan" from Dyre to 180th St., then by all means it should continue with a quicker run all the way in. It's ridiculous to have one line quicker in one region and slower in another region as compared with a parallel line.
If the Lex is so heavily used, I don't understand why the MTA should be trying to cut corners with it. And "if the wheel ain't broke, don't fix it."
You are absolutely right. I take the #5 train and we ARE treated like second class citizens.
The trains come every 15-20 minutes in the morning.
In the evenings the situation is worse. About 5 #4 trains pull in, then a #5 - 238TH STREET. Then maybe a few more #4's. Then a Dyre 5. You can imagine how crowded it gets. Sometimes the MTA decides to suddenly make the 238th 5 a Dyre-bound train at 180th. So basically you're playing a game of crpas each night if you ride the 238th bound #5.
This is not a case of NIMBY. It is a case of being taken advantage of. This is not a line in the middle of the country. If anyone disagrees, please take the train for a week or a month in the morning and evening up to Dyre. The trains often carry a full load sometimes till the end of the line.
Bull. The 5 runs every 5 minutes during the rush hour. Stop exaggerating.
Yes but No.5's out of Dyre Run every 8 to 10 Minutes as well as the trains out of 238 St. It closes down to 4 to 5 Minutes below E 180 St.
If the No.5 out of Dyre goes Local there will be a 8 to 10 Minute wait on the Local and with the No.2 and No.5 from White Plains on the Express the wait will be 5 Minutes for your Express train.
There would be no change in the wait for the Express but the local is looking at a Extra 2 Minutes.
This again isn't true. Dyre Ave #5 trains are scheduled ever 5-6 minutes during the rush. The 238th St #5's run every 10 minutes. I have family in Morris PArk and am well learned about #5 traffic patterns.
I just don't like people exaggerating their waits, as most people do.
There are some No.5's out of Dyre Ave with 5 Minutes but 90% of the runs are every 8 Minutes during the AM Rush Hour.
I can agree with you that the other comment about 15 Minutes was excessive.
This is probably what the MTA wanted. The local section below 180 St. gets a train every 8 minutes or so, just like the Dyre Avenue section. The expresses being 3/4 of the trains can run every 2 minutes.
Not true, #2 service runs every 5-6 minutes. I wouldn't support any plan that would reduce this, even if it means retaining the status-quo.
Not the Dyre! 9-10 min headway if there are no delays. And there are usually delays. If I'm on the 5 toward 238th, I'll stay on till Pel Pkwy and use my free Metrocard transfer to hop the #12 bus to Williamsbridge Rd. Because God knows when the next Dyre-bound train will arrive(Maybe He doesn't know!)
I hate to ask this question, but why don't you take whichever #5 comes along to 180 St, then take whichever train (2 or 5) comes along to upper White Plains Road? Then you might not have to wait forever for just the right train to arrive. To most New Yorkers a one seat ride is not as important as frequent expresses and a cross-platform change to the final train.
To most New Yorkers a one seat ride is not as important as frequent expresses and a cross-platform change to the final train.
How many New Yorkers get the chance to get any seat? Perhaps it is only the standees who jump - to minimize their discomfort.
My point is that I fail to see why are there more #4 trains than #5 trains.
By the time any #5 train pulls in, they are packed. Whether they be 238th or Dyre Avenue bound.
A plan to make everyone happy:
(2) Bronx Local - 241st / 7th Ave - Non-Rush
<2> Bronx Express - 241st / 7th Ave - Rush - (2 of these for every 1 of these ^)
<2> Bronx Local - 241st / Lexington - Rush
(5) Bronx Local - Dyre ave - Lexington - All Times
<5> Bronx Express - Dyre ave - Lexington - Rush - Limited Service (1 of these for every 2 of these ^)
Well 2 always means 7th Avenue, so why confuse things further???
Screw a majority of riders who would benefit from a new service plan simply because a minority can't deal with a minor inconvienence.
One problem is that one cannot rely on the MTA to determine who the majority and minority of the riders are. There are the following 9 classes of riders in the AM rush hour based on origin-destination:
1. WPR north of E 180th to West Side Line
2. WPR north of E 180th to East Side Line
3. WPR north of E 180th to Jackson to 177th stops
4. Dyre to West Side Line
5. Dyre to East Side Line
6. Dyre to Jackson to 177th stops
7. Jackson to 177th stops to West Side Line
8. Jackson to 177th stops to East Side Line
9. Jackson to 177th stops to Jackson to 177th stops
There are 10 stops on WPR north of E 180th; 5 stops on the Dyre and 7 stops from Jackson to 177th. Let's use the following assumptions for lack of more definitive data. The number of passengers entering each station is the same. The percentage of destinations from north of E 180th St is: West Side - 45%; East Side - 45%; Jackson to 177th - 10%. The percentage destinations for passengers entering south of E 180th are: West Side - 47.5%; East Side - 47.5%; stop north of Third Ave - 5%. The current headways will be continued: #2 - 4 minutes; #5(E238) - 8 minutes; #5(Dyre) - 8 minutes. The express saves 3 minutes running time.
The multipliers for each of the categories are:
1. 0.205 ((10/22) * 0.45)
2. 0.205 ((10/22) * 0.45)
3. 0.045 ((10/22) * 0.10)
4 0.102 ((5/22) * 0.45)
5. 0.102 ((5/22) * 0.45)
6. 0.023 ((5/22) * 0.10)
7. 0.151 ((7/22) * 0.475)
8. 0.151 ((7/22) * 0.475)
9. 0.026 ((7/22) * 0.05)
Total 1.01 - should be 1.0 but round off error above
Let's summarize the changes for each of the rider classes.
1. -3 minutes (now runs express)
2. no change
3. +4 minutes (must now change for Dyre at 180th)
4. no change (previously changed at Third Ave now changes at E 180th St)
5. +3 minutes (now local)
6. -2 minutes (no longer changes at E 180th St)
7. +4 minutes (reduced headways)
8. +2 minutes (reduced headways less change at Third Ave)
9. + 4 minutes (reduced headways)
The average expected change is calculated by multipying the categories by their multipliers and summing up.
1. -0.615 (-3 * 0.205)
2. 0 (0 * 0.205)
3. +0.18 (+4 * 0.045)
4. 0 (0 * 0.102)
5. +0.306 (+3 * 0.102)
6. -0.046 (-2 * 0.023)
7. +0.604 (+4 * 0.151)
8. +0.302 (+2 * 0.151)
9. +0.104 (+4 * 0.026)
Total 0.835 minutes LONGER for the average rider.
Clearly, these results can change based on more accurate assumptions. However, it is not at all obvious that the new plan benefits a majority of riders.
I've ridden both lines, and many more people use the WPR line. It's simply more crowded, and it has more trains serving it during the rush hours. You don't need mathematical statistics to show that. Any plan which would benefit the WPR line would benefit the majority of riders.
I've ridden both lines, and many more people use the WPR line. It's simply more crowded, and it has more trains serving it during the rush hours. You don't need mathematical statistics to show that.
My model implicitly assumes that twice as many people use WPR than use Dyre by virtue of having 10 stations rather than 5. They are currently provided with 3 times the service.
I have been spending some time observing the AM rush hour conditions on the Lex Ave express. I have not been able to observe any discernable pattern to #5 loading levels. The TA has not helped me by keeping all the destination signs as coming from Dyre Ave. However, there is no obvious pattern.
If you have better information regarding the number of people using each of the Bronx stations, I would be happy to use it and recalculate my results.
Any plan which would benefit the WPR line would benefit the majority of riders.
That's not really true. Go back to the pre 1958 days and run a Dyre Ave Shuttle. Provide 33% more service on the WPR branch due to the missing Dyre Ave trains. That's not a plan that can be implementd.
Here are statistics from 1997 (I don't have anything later, unfortunately):
Station Annual Registrations
241 St 957,633
238 St 627,588
233 St 1,147,091
225 St 776,057
219 St 637,678
Gun Hill Rd 901,101
Burke Av 779,014
Allerton Av 1,168,397
Pelham Pky 1,440,914
Bronx Park E 443,098
Dyre Av 803,795
Baychester Av 759,343
Gun Hill Rd 1,242,161
Pelham Pky 495,493
Morris Park 364,721
WPR Total: 8,878,571
DYR Total: 3,665,513
So, at least as of year-end 1997, the White Plains Road Line above E. 180th Street served somewhat more than twice as many people as the Dyre Avenue Line served (71%-29%).
David
Thank you so much.
What about the stations below E 180th St? They are also affected by this shift.
True, but the East side line is more desirable, and they'd have direct access with the #5 going local. So I'd think they'd be served better under the new plan.
Have you considered how long they would have wait to be "better erved" under the new plan?
long live the lexington thru express
If you want to arrive at work flatter than a pancake. The good thing about the current plan is that it moves the crowds to the West Side IRT which has more trains serving it. Also, if people find the 2/3 to be too crowded on the West Side, people there can go over to the A, B, C, and D trains. The last thing the TA should be doing is bringing more people to the already crowded East Side.
This won't happen. People who use the #2 local will simply transfer to the #2 at E149th St/3rd. Ave or 149th/Grand Concourse, as those who need East Side service do today. In fact, I'm sure more local riders will desire the #5 over the #2, judging on the massive transfers that take place at these stations.
BTW, does the Dyre Ave. #5 line run on the same 12 TPH headway as the #2?
I think the combined #5 runs at 12 TPH. The Dyre get 2/3 of those (or is it 1/2?).
Well, here goes:
Station..........Annual Registrations (1997)
E Tremont Av.......957,633
174 St...................996,856
Freeman St...........601,314
Simpson St........1,473,139
Intervale Av..........448,962
Prospect Av......1,115,226
Jackson Av..........750,365
Total: 6,343,498
Thank you very much for these numbers.
The updated proportion for trip origins is: 47.0% WPR; 19.4% Dyre and 33.6% below E 180th St. I have amended my estimate of the average change in travel time for the #2 and #5 riders in the Bronx to an increase of 0.801 minutes, using the same assumptions for travel time changes and destination distribution. My original estimate was 0.835, so I don't think that my "seat of the pants" estimate was not that unrealistic. I have put my figures on a spreadsheet so I can quickly refine this estimate to meet more detailed assumptions.
The load factor has not been addressed. At present there are 75% of the trains servicing 47% of the riders on WPR; 25% of the trains servicing 19.4% of the riders on Dyre and 50% of the trains servicing 33.6% of the riders below E 180th. The proposed changes do not change anything above E 180th. However, it is now proposed that 33.6% of the passengers should board only 25% of the trains - after these trains have absorbed 19.4% of the passengers on the Dyre. Not accounting for changing trains at E 180th nor destinations within the Bronx, the proposal would appear to attempt to load 53% of the passengers into 25% of the trains. The present imbalance is 64.9% of the passengers into 50% of the trains.
I humbly question your assessment that these proposed changes and their subsequent postponement show good planning and poor community relations. If anything, the reverse is true. The community appears to be far more cognizant of this plan's implications than the MTA's planners.
I see Mr. Bauman's point. If I have time, I'll check into it and see what the planners' assumptions were.
David
The following appears in today's (Sun 2 May 2000) NY Times, Section 14 (The City) p 15 - Our Trip's Long Enough as it Is, Commuters Tel M.T.A.
The opposition appears to have given the M.T.A. pause. Two days after Mr. Klein [Assemblyman Jeffrey Klein] delivered his petitions to the agency, it announced a one-month delay in its plan.
Here is a little math problem:
1) The 63rd street connector is how many feet?
2) How many years did it take to build?
3) What is the cost per foot?
Can we translate this into statistics for a full length Second Avenue Subway?
Will all of us who are posting messages tonite be retired in Florida by the time the Second Avenue Subway is finished?
Please note that I am being positive and saying the Second Avenue Subway will be built!!!!!
I have no clue how long the connection is but, the construction began on September 22, 1994. I also don't know the cost per feet.
Funny that in the 70ties when they ran out of money they didn't stop that subway to nowhere instead on 2nd Avenue.
Arti
The 63rd. St line was already funded, contracts were signed and construction had already begun. The tubes that now make the 63rd. St tunnel were already constructed in Maryland by the time the fiscal crisis of 1975 hit. It would have been fiscally imprudent to cancel the construction that far along.
What about 2nd Ave? They were already building some of it, how much was "funded" how much of the construction contracted out? Anyway what was the original intention behind 63rd st line, where was it supposed to go? Connecting it to Queens Boulevard seems like an afterthought not to mention as pretty useless.
Arti
From the MTA's 1974 Annual Report, Page 13:
"The money which will be available for new routes during the six-year period is not enough to complete both the Second Avenue and Queens lines within an acceptable time frame. Accordingly, construction of the Queens trunk line has been given priority over completion of the Second Avenue line. At the same time, construction will be completed on those sections of the Second Avenue line which are already under construction..." The "Queens trunk line" consisted of the 63rd Street Tunnel and the Archer Avenue Line; the Archer Avenue Line's upper level was supposed to be connected to the LIRR Atlantic Branch right-of-way past Jamaica Center and go as far as Springfield Boulevard on its own tracks.
The 1968 plan had trains going through the 63rd Street Tunnel and the Queens Boulevard Line. In addition, a single-track "Queens Bypass" was to be constructed along LIRR right-of-way between Queens Plaza and Continental Avenue. This track would connect to the 53rd Street Tunnel, with a future connection to the 63rd Street Tunnel.
As to Second Avenue, the 1968 plan had trains operating only as far south as 34th Street; the completion of the line to lower Manhattan was to be part of a second phase of construction. However, politics being what they are, the MTA was forced into trying to build the whole thing at once, and when the city and state ran into fiscal problems in the mid-1970s, ended up finishing nothing. The three completed sections are: E. 110th to E. 120th Streets, E. 99th to E. 106th Streets, and a short section under the Manhattan Bridge that was done while Confucius Plaza was being built. A fourth section, from E. 2nd to E. 9th Streets, was started, but apparently only utility relocation work was done. Additionally, connections to the 63rd Street Line were built.
David
Thanks,
I understand the importance of the Archer Ave line, as it was to replace Jamaica El they tore down. But was I can't see the realtive importance of 63rd Street tunnel, they could have just completed whatever was already paid for, then mothballed it, like the LIRR level of the same tunnel instead of mothballing 2nd Ave.
Arti
The Second Ave. line was far more costly and farther behind, construcion-wise, than was 63rd. St. Basically, you had millions spent on 63rd. St which would have been completely wasted had the project been cancelled (including all those completed tunnel tubes). As far as Second Ave. was, it was still just a few holes in the ground in scattered areas.
BTW, didn't the 1968 plan call for the 63rd. St tube to feed the Jamaica "super express" line that was planned for the Montaulk LIRR branch (killed by NIMBYism)?
[BTW, didn't the 1968 plan call for the 63rd. St tube to feed the Jamaica "super express" line that was planned for the Montaulk LIRR branch (killed by NIMBYism)? ]
David previously posted that they had plans for Forest Hills one track superexpress.
Arti
I agree. I recall the MTA annual reports from that era saying the 63rd street line would connect with the Super Express.
If you look at the R-46 roster page, you'll see a photo of car #630 wearing a faux end sign touting the Queens Blvd. Super Express. It was prepared for a tour by his emminance, Count Mario the 1st, who never showed up.
If the Archer Avenue line had gone to Springfield Blvd, it would have been great. Tens of thousands of people in Queens would have an easier ride into the city. It's so logical and probably so inexpensive to build, since the ROW already exists that the MTA probably said, "Too useful and logical, forget it."
The only reasons I have ever discerned for completing the 63 St. tunnel is 1) provide service to Roosevelt Island, and 2) to now get all 4 Queens Blvd. trains into Manhattan and have the G train forever terminate at Court Square.
An okay reason, but not worth the expense, as far as I'm concerned.
(The only reasons I have ever discerned for completing the 63 St. tunnel is 1) provide service to Roosevelt Island, and 2) to now get all 4 Queens Blvd. trains into Manhattan and have the G train forever terminate at Court Square).
If the new signals can get trains on a clear track up to 40 trains per hour, but dwell time in stations slow things down, then there might be another reason. During rush hour, trains on the express track could skip 74th/Roosevelt, and 10 more express trains could be added, diverging through the 63rd Street tunnel.
What about F only taking the 63rd st route (switching terminals with E i.e. from Jamaica) being the only express in Queens. E from 179th Street to WTC via local. R via local as is. Some F trains via express in Brooklyn or short runs.
Arti
The idea is to have 4 trains running, two on the express track, two on the local track. More likely it would be the E and F expresses, the Q and R locals (or something like that).
If you were to run only F on the express track, you'd eliminate merging trains thus increasing capacity. It would also promote people to use more local trains. As it is right now locals are filled around 80% while express is over capacity. I fail to see how MTA-s plan is going to change that (Exp still packed, locals even more empty)
Arti
(As it is right now locals are filled around 80% while express is over capacity. I fail to see how MTA-s plan is going to change that (Exp still packed, locals even more empty)
My suggestion is to have the express trains bypass 74th/Roosevelt during rush hours, and to have one express (F) and one local (Q) use the 63rd St tunnel. That way, "outer" riders would get express service, while "inner" riders would be required to use the local. Inner riders may find this to be unfair, but the ride in from Woodhaven Blvd isn't too long, even on the local, compared with the ride from Jamaica.
You'd also eliminate the bottleneck at 53rd St and 6th Avenue with this system, although you'd create one where the Queens express and local tracks merge before the tunnel. Both local and express tracks would have a 6th Avenue train, and a train which would allow service to either Broadway or 8th Avenue with a change at Queens Plaza.
This sounds like a pretty good idea, the only problem I see is the dual mergers. Especially from exp, local to 63rd street. That place has 4 lines merging diverging of both directions in this case, could be a nightmare.
Arti
If I'm not mistaken, the Queens Super Express Bypass was supposed to rejoin the subway at Continental Avenue.
Does anybody know how this was to be done?
Not sure, but the scheme was so hair-brained that it wasn't really thought through.
I'm not sure that the scheme was hair-brained. If Queens is only going to have one real trunk line (the QB), too bad it has two express tracks instead of four. I think the idea was to extend the subways througout eastern Queens.
Good point. Queens Blvd. is certainly wide enough to accommodate a six-track line. Too bad they didn't take that into consideration when the Queens line was being built, especialy with all those other lines which were planned to tie into it.
[Good point. Queens Blvd. is certainly wide enough to accommodate a six-track line. Too bad they didn't take that into consideration when the Queens line was being built, especialy with all those other lines which were planned to tie into it.]
There's plenty of LIRR ROW. They could easily add another two track express service if they cared.
The plan was never really a plan but mearly a concept in that I don't think plans were ever drawn. Clearly, as we've seen at 36th Street, where there is a will, there is a way. I think that the common belief was that the super express would have branched off around Woodhaven Blvd. and rejoined either immediately before or after Queens Plaza. It would have followed the ROW of the LIRR through the north side of Sunnyside Yard. This was desirable since there are still plans to build a major NYCT complex in Sunnyside Yard. While that plan again is not finalized, I've heard 3 facets of the plan are being considered.
1) A storage facility that would accommodate the overflow from Jamaica Yard making use of D-3 and D-4 tracks for storage, unnecessary.
2) A turn-around loop for the #7 line to facilitate maintenance since cars requiring 'looping' now must loop through Coney Island Yard.
3) A work train servicing facility. Currently work trains serving Queens must be returned to 36th Street in Brooklyn or Westchester Yard in the Bronx.
The 63rd Street Connector is about 1,500 feet long, cost in the neighborhood of $700 million (not including rolling stock), and took about 6 years to build (it'll be about 7 to open for regular service). The connector has no stations. That works out to about $467,000 per foot. It must be remembered, though, that there was a great deal of work ASSOCIATED with the connector, such as hooking it into the Queens Boulevard Line and temporarily supporting the Astoria Line while the connector was being built. This was a VERY complex project.
The Second Avenue Subway should be around two miles from E. 63rd Street to E. 125th Street. At $467,000 per foot, that would be just under $5 billion, not including rolling stock, station finish, etc. However, the construction method is different (extensive use of Tunnel Boring Machines), the line doesn't have to be hooked into an existing line (the pockets are already there), and no elevated lines have to be supported during construction. The lower part of the line (from E. 63rd Street down) is about five miles long -- anyone want to organize a telethon to pay for THAT? :-)
David
Connections are expensive, but the 2nd Avenue Subway should not be. The pockets for the connections to the 63rd St line are already there. And as for the stations, they should install them unfinished and try to get sponsors. Given the income of the area, 96th Street/Chase Station would probably go for a lot of money.
I say there is no excuse for this line to cost more than $400 million per mile. If labor is 2/3 of the cost, and the average construction worker costs $100,000 in wages and benefits, 2,670 man-years per mile. One should be able to do that with a pick and shovel, let alone a tunnel boring machine.
Cost, and the fact that the MTA will be $25 billion in debt in 2004, are the big issues here.
A deep boring machine and prudent contracting would make the "stubway" economically feasible. These are big ifs. Only when people start falling off crowded platforms at Lexington Ave stations will the political will become strong enough to build this damn line.
The connections from the 63rd Street connector to the 2nd Ave line is already built. I saw it before that portion of the tunnel was completed. There are also several segments of the 2nd avenue subway that have already been built. I don't think that the sum of the completed parts would cut the projected costs in half but we could comfortably split the difference. Figure around $15 billion for a 10 mile long line extending from Harlem to Lower Manhattan.
More books and video titles are continually added to the Trolley Museum's on-line store tmny.safeshopper.com. Latest additions include four book titles from Xplorer Press, which includes Greller's interesting books, and several Online Video titles (produced in England). 'PCC Cars' includes footage of PCC 1000 in service and other scenes shot by the late Everett White.
By the way, the R-16 had some needling and grinding done on its roof today, in addition to adjustments to the door control circuits.
Nice to see my namesake get such excellent care, which it probably never saw in it's entire service life.
You know, you could always come up and help. Harold or I would be happy to drive you up with us as well. 6398 needs floor repairs and the body isn't all done yet. Not to mention we need motormen and conductors for weekend operations. Track work and general up keep always seem to be needing something.
Come on up!
Question to the experts out there which lines dont have express service & or dont use them at all ........
( This will help me with my next vidieo this fall ) thank you .....
Aa far as Express service or lack of
B West End
N Sea Beach
F McDonald Av
Astoria Line
Express Tracks are in place,,however ,not used
Is this what you are requesting??
Steve
There is also the IRT Jerome Ave and Broadway Lines.
The Broadway line tracks are used, its just not on the map. The scheduled service isn't on the map because of a really long-assed G.O.
I think he meant the 1/9 north of 96th St.
Express Tracks are used on the B and the F when trains get Battery Runs or are skipping stops to make up time. I've experienced on both lines.
Also GO's will use the express tracks.
As far as lines WITHOUT an express track (we're talking a 3rd for one-way express, not the lack of a fourth) you have only a couple:
The Dyre Avenue line (but there is an express track beyond E 180th).
The G Crosstown (but there were express tracks on the Culver and QB as the route was originally designed).
The A in the Rockaways, and
The L Canarise Line.
The latter is unfortunate. It was expected to be a high capacity line, and a third track would really have helped. Given that the Lex was not expected to be the only transit line on the east side, the L is the only line which I believe was under-designed.
Also, the Myrtle Ave El north of Broadway (Brooklyn) and the IRT Broadway line north of 137th St to Dyckman St. There is a third track from Dyckman to 242nd St, but this is more of a "service" track than an "express" track.
--Mark
Then there's the J line between Eastern Parkway and Parsons-Archer. Two tracks along the entire stretch except for the storage track at 111th St.
thank you for that fine information.....thank you .....
Also, the Queens Blvd line on Hillside ave, the Fulton Line after Grant, the Crosstown line for two stops near the middle, the 1/9 north of 96th, the J/Z from Myrtle to Eastern Pkwy.
On the G, there is room for a third track at Classon Ave., but there are no rails. Bedford-Nostrand has a middle track which would have been used to turn back trains had the Lafayette Ave. extension been built.
Greetings, all...
All my worldly possessions have been stuffed into the cardboard boxes stacked all around me. After I post this message, I will shut down my computer and pack it up as well. First thing tomorrow morning I will load up my rented U-Haul truck, and after saying goodbye to some very close friends, I will head off to my new life in Boston. This is the last you will hear of me until I arrive, probably sometime Sunday night.
It breaks my heart to have to leave my adopted hometown of Chicago, and quite frankly, I'm scared shitless of what I may be getting myself into in Boston. This is one of the most difficult choices I've ever had to make, but I'm confident that I'm doing the right thing. Hopefully someday soon I'll find my way back home.
I'll be driving all day tomorrow and Sunday... Please keep me in your prayers as I embark on this journey.
Thank you,
-- David
Chicago, IL
have a safe trip david...
i'm sure that you will come to love boston...
i wish i were there this weekend myself
i would have been happy to welcome you to click and clack's fair city... any move in life that brings you closer to tom and ray from national public radio's car talk has to be inspired...
the time is right...
Dave,
I have followed your preparations for your move with great interest. I had the same feelings when I left New York so many years ago. I hope that when you read this you will have had a safe trip and will be getting used to your new surroundings. You will never think of Boston as you did of Chicago, but it will have a lot to offer. I hope that you watched all of the reruns of Spenser on TV to get acquainted with your new home. If all else fails, just remember that you are within driving distance of a number of great transit museums!
Born and raised in the Bronx and later moved to Brooklyn, then Montana, now North Dakota I have considered Chicago my adopted city for year. The :L has been the drawing card, hence the L at the end of my handle; You'll have plenty of rail transit to enjoy in Boston, but not like Chicago. But I don't think any American major city has neater people than Chicago; hthey're the most down to earth I've met but good luck anyway.
Best wishes in your new home town. We here in Chicago will miss you.
-- Ed Sachs
Good luck in the new town. I like Boston, It's not Chicago but very nice. Have fun, looking to hear about your adventure.
Joe M
Hope you found a place to pahk your cahr.:-)
I have noted by reading the postings how popular Nostalgia Trips are as evidenced by the upcoming D-type train trip. Unfortunately when I moved away from NYC (one month before the big 100% fare hike) the closest thing to a nostalgia trip was to transfer from the IND to the IRT in Manhattan.
In searching the Rolling Stock section of this site it is easy to find when various types of rolling stock were built and presumably shortly thereafter were put into service. What is not so easy to find is when various types of cars were removed from revenue service. Bigedirtmanl has mentioned driving Q-type cars during the sixties and riding Gate cars through 1958, and I saw a posting that the last of the Redbirds would retire soon. (I personally have never seen a Redbird, but I assume that does not refer to St. Louis baseball players).
I would like to make a comprehensive list of when various types of cars (particularly those before the R series) were retired from revenue service so Dave can post the information on this site. When I was thinking of how to research the project I realized there is probably no better knowledge base than those who contribute to this board.
So, if you can help please let me know what you think the last year each type of retired rolling stock was in regular revenue service, and if possible what line it was running on. I will compile the responses.
Tom
Here's what I can attest to:
BMT Triplex: July 1965 (T)
BMT Standard: August 1969 (Culver Shuttle, JJ/KK)
R7: March 1977 (J)
R10: June 1989 (C)
R12: September 1981 (scattered on IRT lines)
R14/R15: November 1984 (#3, #5)
R16: May 1987 (M)
R17: February 1988 (#5, TS shuttle)
R21/22: October 1987 (#5, #3, #6)
R30: January 1993 (C)
I can get somewhat more specific on two ...
BMT Triplex: July 23rd, 1965 (T)
R7: March 31st, 1977 (J)
--Mark
I believe that the Standard's last run was on August 4, 1969.
Thanks for the input. Now does anyone know aboout the multisection cars? I remember them on the Canarsie line in the early 50's. How about the Hi-V's and Low-V's? Did the gate cars run on Myrtle Ave. until the line was discontinued, or did they leave service earlier?
The gate cars were probably retired shortly after the Q cars were transferred from the demolished 3rd Ave. el to Myrtle Ave. around 1955ish. The multisexions were retired in 1961. The Q's in October, 1969.
Thanks for th input Chris, but I am not sure that Q's ever ran in service on the 3rd Ave. El. They were basically BMT equipment and I remember seeing them on the Astoria line. The Q's were rebuilt from El cars, and after closing the 2nd, 6th, and 9th Ave Els there was quite a surplus of El cars for use on the 3rd Ave. El.
They did. After joint service was ended on the Astoria and Flushing Lines, the Qs became surplus. Rather than scrapping the cars, because they were too valuable, the cars were transferred to the 3rd Av El. The cars were taken off their original trucks and placed on those that belonged to the Composites to lighten the weight on the el structure. These had been scrapped prior to the Qs arrival. Even with the lighweight trucks, the Qs were still heavy and generally deadheaded in one direction during the day. The strongest portion of the structure was the middle track built after 1915.
-Stef
Much of the wooden El cars from the 2nd, 6th & 9th Ave Els were disposed of primarily by burning. Some of the cars became housing at the scout camps north of the city. A few went to the Dyre ave line.
Some found their way out the west coast and were used in war time ship yard and commuter runs of a similar nature both as trailers and as electric powered units. A few continued in service in some Penna interurbans as trailers.
You also have to remember that most of that equipment dated to the turn of the century and was already 30 to 40 years old. All that equipment started out as unpowered steam railway coaches. Only the MUDCs made to the end of the era on the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave Line. There was one or two work trains of gate cars until the last wooden (IRT) equipment was disposed of in 1959.
I took some pictures of one of the 2nd ave cars that was converted
for west cost use in a museum last september, the pictures are at:
http://palter.org/~subway/western-railway-museum.html
Bill
Thanks Bill,
I remember your post from last year.
Then I went down to the Borders Book store down the street,
and in the trasportation section, there was a RR book about the WWII home front. There were pictures of the el cars in electric and steam coach service in California during WWII.
There were also NYW&B cars used as steam RR coaches also.
Their AC electrical gear was of no value out there.
Yes they did, as rush hour expresses, after BMT service on the Flushing line ended in 1949. The Q's were 9' wide and built to IRT clearances. The Myrtle Ave line south of Bway was never rebuilt and could only operate the narrower 9' cars. They operated here until 1955, when the Manhattan portion of the el was closed.
On the July 1998 page of Bill Newkirk's calendar is a shot of a Q on the Myrt, July 62 ... I remember riding one about that time ... just before they were withdrawn from service.
Mr t__:^)
Much of the surplus of el cars were l9th century steamcars that were electrified;therefore disposed of when no longer needed..some dated to l878, the latest were l893. There were still some 20th century (l902-ll) gate cars left after the war, needless to say they were labor intensive and a prime candidate for replacement. The other equipment on 3rd ave. other than the mainstay of the fleet, the l902-11 MUDC cars) were the composites which were originally built for the subway and outlawed and moved to the el because they were combustible. They had been modified several times and from what I've heard pretty deteriorated so the Q's, when they became available, were converted a bit to replace composites on 3rd Ave, /and/or the last of the gate cars.
What is interesting is that the composites didn't last nearly as long as the Hi-V's that were built at approximately the same time...although I guess that NOTHING lasted as long as some of those warhorses....although some of the R-32s MIGHT challenge that record someday....
One exception..the BMT Q's were 62-66 years old when retired, having been remodelled from l903 and l907 gate cars in l938.For longevity other railroads hadsome equals in their MU fleets..Lackawanna , probably some Pennsy and LIRR MP54's, Chi 4000's came close. I love the term Warhorses, as a kid I thought the High V's would be around forever, but alas...the R32 might equal that record, but the old IRT stuff never went thru a major rebuild program, still had all their original equipment except for some improvements in couplers and door controls. The Composites were kind of a lemon; they weren't really wanted in the beginning: steel was wanted; they had several major changes over the years, due to weight thyey were restricted but usable on the els, but why they didn't hold up I don't know. The Q's that replaced them [albeit with Composite trucks] were just as old. E mail me if you wish to share more IRT memories.
The original Gibbs Hi-Vs are still the all-time champions in terms of subway car longevity in New York. All of them made to 50 years, and three of them ran until the spring of 1958. Conductors breathed a sigh of relief when those cars were retired, since they knew they would no longer have to deal with their manual vestibule doors, described in Interborough Rolling Stock as being "brutal".
I'm willing to bet the R-32s will be around well into the next decade and set a new record for longevity.
The gate cars survived on Myrtle until April 58. The Q's ran on 3rd Ave. until late in l956 as did the MUDC's (IRT el cars). Some surgery was required on th lower Myrtle stations to accomodate the Q's as you needed an honest 6cars of room, had there been 6 car gate trains the end platforms of the train would be outside platform limits. So the Q's were in storage and in a modification and repaint program ofor a while and the BU's got over a year's grace.
In reference to the gate cars-
The 200, 600, 900, 1200 and 1400 series gate cars disappeared after the "Last Lex" in 1950.
The 1300 series gate cars were last used in revenue service on the Myrt in 1958.
The 700 series gate cars ended their careers in snow train sevice and were gone in the early 1950's when most of the el lines (except the Myrt) had their third rails relocated and covered after the demise of the Lex. A few of the gate cars were fitted with subway type pickups for work train service.
Third rails relocated? Can you explain what this was?
That may have been a poor way to express myself. At one time all of the third rails on the els were uncovered. The gate car's pick-up shoes made contact from above prohibiting the use of a third rail cover. This third rail was about six inches closer to the running rails. This uncovered third rail was very susceptible to snow and ice. This in turn resulted in the operation of "snow trains". Snow trains were normally two 700 series gate cars, equipped with side mounted brushes, scrappers and in some cases the ability to dispense a liquid de-icer. These trains carried no passengers and operated between regular trains. Shortly after the Last Lex in 1950, the BMT moved the third rail about six inches further away from the running rails, and installed the wood covers resulting in the third rail as you see it today.
The original uncovered third rail was much narrower than the third rail used today. Gate cars could still be operated, but they would have to be specially equipped with "subway type pickup shoes".
Living near an el in the 1940's gave me the opportunity to see some wild light shows from the arcing when a train went by whenever it snowed or sleeted.
I'm sure that Jeff H could give you a clearer explanation than I did but I hope you get the idea!
I was aware that the elevateds once had uncovered 3rd. rails, but I merely thought they were covered for safety purposes and to prevent excessive sparking to cascade down onto the streets. Thanks for the explanation.
The elevted type uncovered 3rd rails remained on Myrtle Ave, (and what was left of the old Fulton) for some time thereafter. TheFulton actually on Pitkin and Liberty had uncovered 3rd rails until the demise with the outer end being taken over by the IND April 56. The BU's still had the gravity shoes until their demise and when the Q's replaced them in l958 they got the BU's shoes. I don't know when upper Myrtle was converted to subway 3rd rail ..early 60'd I think, then the Q's got modified Low-V shoe beams, but the lower line retained the el 3rd rail,.I can remember seeing the 700's in Fresh Pond yard in l955 and If I remember correctly they were still in snow train service.
I am still confused as when and where the Q's ended revenue service. Was it when the 3rd Ave. El was torn down or at the end of the Myrtle El or the Fulton El or some later time?
Also the use of 700 series gate cars as snow trains would not count as revenue service.
So far no one has given me a hint about the Hi-Vs and Low-Vs
Tom, the "Q"s lasted believe it or not to the last day of the Myrtle in 1969. Here's a picture of the last train:
And I'm more than pleased to advise that I was the motorman on one of the last regular trains the last night of operation and also on the fantrip of Q's on October 4, l969. I was honored to have been a motorman on the Q's.
And I was a passenger, no doubt on one of your runs, the night of October 3, 1969. My Mom and Dad came along for the ride. We took a) a fan b) a leather strap and c) a lite bulb from one of the cars as souvenirs and we still have them.
wayne
Is that you?
Well I've looked hard.. can't tell if the striped bibs show there, but my thin face does. The engineer on the Sunday Oct 5 trip was Joe Lyons, I think he had a lot more hair than I do. If this photo was taken on the Sat. October 4 fantrip THAT BE ME. SO you found me on subtalk, speaking to you from NoDak land. Ed Davis of "They Moved The Millions" Hope you enjoyed the trip.
That must have been a sad occasion too! Wouldn't it be nice to have something to remember it by...say an old seat or something?
You have a very good memory!!! If only I had a computer with a scanner instead of WebTV, I'd post a picture of the seat I stole borrowed.
I often wondered why you chose a seat instead of one of the neat steel signs. One of the signs like Myrtle Ave Line or Bridge-Jay St would have been a lot easier to carry,
Have you ever thought about building a frame to hold it so that you could actually sit on it?
Years ago a member of my railroad club bought two B & O coaches to convert into a hobby shop, he gave a pair of seats to every member of the club. We got a carpenter to build us a frame which resulted in a two seat couch that we used for many years in our rec room. My wife would not permit it in the living room.
Actually it was a spur of the moment thing. I had no tools with me. There were guys on the trains taking souvenirs. A few people with knives were taking the straps off. If you remember the "Q"s had soft straps, not hard like modern trains. Even Pigs might've liked those straps!! I don't even think the "Q"s on the Myrtle had signs anyway. I know the one at the museum has signs but I don't really remember 'em on MYrtle.
However, just out of coincidence, I DO have a Myrtle Av street sign, a black one from when all Bklyn street signs were black. I was walking to the 84 pct on Gold Street about 15 yrs ago and saw it lying on the ground near the corner of Myrtle and just picked it up and put it in my car trunk. When I got a new car I just changed trunks and its still there today!!!
I remember the soft straps very well. The gate cars had them too (the "Q's" were formally gate cars).
I missed out on the signs on the Lex in 1950 too. While I was enjoying the ride on an outside platform, the fans inside cleaned out all the signs in all six cars. My dad was able to get me a 111th St sign at the East New York yards the next week, and I still have it. I never was able to locate any of the others.
I imagine that the Myrtle Ave street sign is bigger than the train signs, but you still should still be able to frame it and hang it on your rec room wall.
I'll confirm that there were no signs left on Myrt toward the end. Had probably all been liberated well before the end.
Actually it was a spur of the moment thing. I had no tools with me. There were guys on the trains taking souvenirs. A few people with knives were taking the straps off. If you remember the "Q"s had soft straps, not hard like modern trains. Even Pigs might've liked those straps!! I don't even think the "Q"s on the Myrtle had signs anyway. I know the one at the museum has signs but I don't really remember 'em on MYrtle.
However, just out of coincidence, I DO have a Myrtle Av street sign, a black one from when all Bklyn street signs were black. I was walking to the 84 pct on Gold Street about 15 yrs ago and saw it lying on the ground near the corner of Myrtle and just picked it up and put it in my car trunk. When I got a new car I just changed trunks and its still there today!!!
I remember the soft straps very well. The gate cars had them too (the "Q's" were formally gate cars).
I missed out on the signs on the Lex in 1950 too. While I was enjoying the ride on an outside platform, the fans inside cleaned out all the signs in all six cars. My dad was able to get me a 111th St sign at the East New York yards the next week, and I still have it. I never was able to locate any of the others.
I imagine that the Myrtle Ave street sign is bigger than the train signs, but you still should still be able to frame it and hang it on your rec room wall.
I'll confirm that there were no signs left on Myrt toward the end. Had probably all been liberated well before the end.
You can take regular 35mm camera photos, and a shop can develop them onto the internet.
Read your e-mail Tom.. just fired you a message. Enjoy! There are not too many old IRT people left, it's been a lot of years.
The Q's were retired when the Myrtle Ave. el went in 1969. The Low V's were retired from revenue service in 1969, when the last ones running on the 3rd. Ave. shuttle in the Bronx were scrapped.
And those Lo-Vs were of the Steinway variety. October(?) of 1964 marked the farewell to the Lo-Vs on the IRT mainlines.
Thanks for the input Karl, but you raise a couple of new questions that I'm not sure about. What does "Last Lex" refer to? And what is a snow train, and why would a gate car be more suitable for it?
A "snow train" is one that serves to clear the snow. The 700s were simply what was available at the time for conversion to work train service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Last Lex was the last train to run on the Lexington Ave el in Brooklyn. It was a special train of six 1300 series gate cars that left Eastern Parkway at 9PM on the evening of Oct 13th 1950, and made a round trip to Bridge-Jay St. The train was packed with officials and railfans. I made the trip, and it was a very sad occasion.
Incidentally, I was a railfan, not an official.
Tom send me an e-mail at bigedirtmanl@msn.com. I'll give what I can on the old IRT High V and Low V retirements but they won't be to the date.
BMT Standard's last run was August 4, 1969, and it was an "M" train.
wayne
Of course, with the Triplexes, it would have been a #3 train.
i just started a club at yahoo called:
spirit of the r9
just a place to go to share memories of riding the 9's when they were in service...
click on to go to spirit of the r9 club
i hope i don't make any mistakes with the html...i don't want to antagonize the html thought police
Does it have to be a memory of the car in service. I got my first ever handle time at Banford members day on the R9 an I would like to talk about that!!!
sure lou... the spirit of the r9 is still alive...
| 1689 |
Is this strictly limited to R-9's (i.e. #1653-1802) I have lots of fond and not-so-fond memories of R-6-2, R-6-3, R-6-1, R-7 and R-7A cars....
wayne
wayne... it's for the whole series of r1/9 cars...
Don't forget the R-1s and R-4s. There was nothing like a ride on a train of those old timers with no headlights.
You could write a book on some of your not-so-fond memories, most of which seem to have a common denominator: excessive heat.:-)
I assume you mean excessive car heatimg and not that they were essentially hot? The R1-9 as other similar cars didn't have thermostats and too often the train crews but way too much heat up. Even if it was in violation of instructions that used to be posted at terminals.Anyone remember those boards:heat,vents,windows,fans, how many or how much, on or off.
I meant to say excessive heat. Their fans would be running during the summer months. They never seemed to be too hot when I rode on them. It may have been because I tuned everything else out and just soaked up all those marvelous sounds. It was music to my ears.
Heypaul's tape truly brings those cars back to life.
I haven't got time to go on another website but I'm glad to see an R9 site started. After the last of the old IRT was gone likewise my other love of the rails, the old els, the R1-9 became my salvation for as long as they were around. I loved running them and riding them. They were a beautiful piece of equipment and carried on the traditional sounds and feel of the early days for yet one more generation to enjoy. Thanks for honoring them.
Okay almost 5 years, who do you miss that has disapeated from the board. People that no longer post?
How about that guy (bet it was a kid) that always posted about twice a month about the esculators being backwards at Court Street Station (N/M/R)?? He is gone but you still go down on the left and up on the right at the entrance.
Or that guy that but huge graphic banner on the bottom of each and every one of his posts (remember his name?).
Who do you remember?
I miss Charles Fiori, and Jason DeCeasere.
Whatever happened to THEM?
-Hank
I was thinking the same thing about Jason -- haven't seen him in any newgroups either.
I haven't heard hide nor hare of Jason in ages. Privately or otherwise. However I do notice he ftp's in and updates his web pages now and again.
-Dave
I suppose Dave could create a directory of posters by first and last post, assuming all the old ones are still stored somewhere, and award a verbal flatulence award to the handle with the most posts. Then again, some might consider a directory an invasion of privacy.
So? Assuming such a thing was done, you can have opt outs like on Deja.com.
Does anyone know what happeened to Mr. Willie? I used to read his posts, and I have a suspicion of what happened but it is only a guess.
Mr.Willie is our favourite whipping boy and the #1 entry in a lot of killfiles - Salaam.
Mr Willie is Salaam.
Larry Redbird R-33 hasn't posted in some time. Nor has N Broadway Line/Express/Local.
Larry Redbird R-33 hasn't posted in some time. Nor has N Broadway Line/Express/Local.
I almost forgot Mister R-10 himself, William Padron. In all fairness, he posts rather infrequently, and then does so when an in-depth discussion of the R-10s develops.
Keep in mind that since Dave instituted the password and "one handle" requirement, sometimes the people you think you miss are here posting all along ....
--Mark
Yah but not a single post about the esculators at Court St >G<.
I miss Chris R. This Chris R16 guy is merely a cheap imitation.
BMT Lines had the graphic at the bottom of the page. I did notice he hasn't posted in a long time.
I remember that he disappeared, came back for one post in a thread eminating from heypaul's daily news article, and has not shown up again.
hey isaac... don't go starting rumors that i had anything to do with bmt's disappearance from this message board... i'm tired of being blamed for things around here... it was just a coincidence that seven people who received my r9 audio tape went mad right after receiving it... a mere statistical fluke... especially when we all know of the high incidence of mental illness among railfans...
by the way, i received the picture of you in the newspaper... from your appearance, i would never have guessed that you are a railfan...
[by the way, i received the picture of you in the newspaper... from your appearance, i would never have guessed that you are a railfan... ]
What do railfans look like?
Arti
in answer to "what do railfans look like?"
somewhat crazed in appearance...
Some people have changed their handles and are still posting, while a few others still use the same handle they started with. I have completely given up on trying to remember who a poster used to be.
I think it was "Pigs" who some weeks ago posted a list of all of the different handles he has used. I was amazed at the length of the list.
I miss "Pelham Bay Dave" who still posts occasionally updating us on the R-142, but he does not post like he used to.
RedbirdR33 or LarryRedbirdR33 used to post regularly, but rarely posts anymore. I sort of thought of him as the site historian.
Actually, it wasn't a full list. All of the modifications were listed, but not all suffixes.
For example: I could have chosen (before passwords) to make my handle on this message Pigs of Royal Island - Many Handled Swine.
That would not count as a separate name as the fact that it's the same person is obvious.
I remember Phil Nasadowski used to always put a "nickname" betweeen his first and last names.
That was a LONG time ago, I think I posted under my initials back then.
That's right! LarryRedbirdR33? What happened to him? I completely forgot and shouldn't have. He was really helpful to me when I first got online. We have to track him down and get him back on board.
He shows up occasionally - IIRC he's posted here within the last week or so. The threads just haven't been in his area of interest, I guess.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He seems to post very seldom, but is still around!
Haven't seen anything from Sid from N.J. lately on this board, although he still appears in Bustalk.
When I first came aboard in January '99, there was a Francine Bacques, one of the very few female Subtalkers- at least one of the very few who used a name that revealed her gender. She didn't stick around long.
Back in December in the days leading up to The Strike That Wasn't, there were some very emotionally heated exchanges between a handful of Subtalkers. You could almost see sparks coming out of the monitor.
I remember Francine. IIRC, she was a regular passenger, er, customer on the 7.
Then there was BX55, who was also female. She hasn't been heard from since one of our regulars (I won't mention names) went ballistic in response to one of her posts.
I have never had the privilege of visiting a subway yard, so I hope some of you that have, can answer this for me.
When a subway train is laid up in a yard until its next call to service, is it completely dead? Is it possible that during its layup, when it is completely unattended, will an air compressor kick on to recharge a reservoir?
What has to be done to completely shut down an unused train or a group of cars?
Not a dumb question at all, Karl. There are several answers to the question so I'l try to give you a general answer. In the past, the SOP had always been (on paper) to cut out all operating equipment when a train is layed up. This incluses lights, AC/heat/fans, air compressors and converters (or M-Gs). Of course, one compressor was to be left on to maintain the air reservoirs and one converter was to be left on to maintain the batteries at a charged state. This is true in some lay-up areas such as 174th Street on the A line or the tail tracks behind 179th St., Parsons Arher and Continental Ave. where trains sit for an entire night.
In practice, this is very rare in most maintenance yards, however. These trains seldom sit for an entire night in maintenance yards. They are cleaned so lights and HVAC are used. They may be run through the car wash. Cars may have to be drilled out for inspection or repair. This means that the cars (and trains) don't sit long.
how can we visit one of these yards?
You either need to have a friend who manages one or wait for an open house.
Either that or a good pair of barbed wire cutters.
When I was 12 back in 1997 I walked right up to the gate to Jamaica yard through the vehicle entrance and watched, unnoticed, them move trains around and snip off the A-A pair of a G train. I didn't enter the premesis. I had hidden behind the signs on the fence and could see the guard and the yard, but he couldn't see me. The guard saw me and yelled when I tried to leave; he had finished his magazine and was actually watching the gate. He told me to go over there, so I was able to enter and see the inside. He asked me what I was doing there, and couldn't believe it when I responded with 'watching the trains'. He let me go after looking me over and seeing no spray paint or other vandalyzing materials. I was able to see a car with a blue storm door (couldn't ID it at the time, may have been a pre GOH R32) on my way out.
Earlier I had been watching trains go in and out of the tunnel portal from the Grand Central Parkway overpass, which is now fenced off.
Thanks for the reply! I'm sure that besides air conditioning, the electronics of todays subway cars makes the ones I remember seem primitive by comparision. I distinctly remember cars parked on the layup tracks at 111th and 160th St stations have compressors starting or stopping while unattended. I wondered if the same thing happened in the yards.
I'm sure there are fewer trains inactive between peak hours now than there were in the 1950's.
In the early 80s the TA became very sensative to public concerns. Crews were ordered to cut out all but esssential equipment. This was especially true on el structures such as the Astoria line. Of course, around that time the 2CY compressor was replaced with today's D-4 (which pumps more efficiently so it needs to run less) and motor-generators were replaced by nearly silent static converters. This helped in reducing noise, especially if the crews remembered to cut off the HVAC.
What are the most dangerous subway stations for railfans.
[What are the most dangerous subway stations for railfans.]
You're highly unlikely to run into problems at any station. Probably 99.9% of the riders at even the most (statistically) dangerous ones are just fine.
Nonetheless, the sketchiest lines and station probably would be the A and C in Brooklyn, the 4 in the Bronx, and both ends of the 3.
thanks Peter; can you give me more details on which stations these are, what neighbourhoods to avoid and what do these look like at night. Should we go with someone from the erea, or can we walk around and visit on our own?
What part of the A Rockaway line (and the Rockaway Park shuttle) are dangerous? I know trains don't run that often, which could make things
unsafe. Also I wonder how safe (and in terms of foot traffic) is
the JFK/Howard Beach station on the A?
Is it safer taking the Q53 bus from Rego Park to get to Rockaway Park?
I've always wondered if there any good parts of the Rockaways.
The JFK station is pretty safe, and is heavily trafficked at all hours (according to my friend in Howard Beach). The Rockaways are pretty safe except for the last stop in both directions. Rock Pk. has a few odd people roaming around, talking to themselves, yelling at traffic lights, etc. Far Rock is sort of populated by thugs, but there is also a heavy Jewish population, so unless it is Friday night there will be good people in the neighborhood for protection. Though, in any part of the Rockaways, don't go down sidestreets unless they intersect with a subway station entrance (don't want to walk in on any 'deals' in a quiet dark area).
Q53 - Good ride, cushioned seats on weekdays, super safe since bus drivers yell at trouble makers for putting their feet on seats or littering, or acting harassing toward others. If you get the female driver, better follow every rule. I saw someone get kicked off her bus once in the middle of nowhere for throwing things out the window. However, there is a homeless (I think) woman who daily goes from 63rd dr to Rock Pk. in both directions, sitting on the streets at either end. An old lady at McDonalds on 63rd called her 'Diseased' and 'sick' when she tried to get in to buy (steal?) food.
Sidenote: Broad Channel is pretty safe too, the station would see less off peak passengers than Bowery if it wasn't for the shuttle, and people going from one Rockaway to the other.
BTW: When trains don't run often, use the waiting room. At Broad Channel and Howard Beach you see the train before the beeping thing goes off from the waiting room.
[The Rockaways are pretty safe except for the last stop in both directions. Rock Pk. has a few odd people roaming around, talking to themselves, yelling at traffic lights, etc.]
??? It's been a while since I've been in the area, but Rockaway Park seemed like a decent neighborhood.
I'll probably take the Q53 bus to 116st terminal at Rockaway Park. I hear it's pretty busy there. I don't know if going to the boardwalk is a good idea through.
I'll take the shuttle train to Broad Channel and get the A to JFK station. I hear the A goes pretty fast across the trestle. How fast do they usually go?
When I rode in an R44 cab over it we went about 47, but on that 5 minute stretch of nothingness, not on the bridge itself. On the bridge it was something like 25-30.
[??? It's been a while since I've been in the area, but Rockaway Park seemed like a decent neighborhood.]
Well, not since a couple of those retirement homes on the boardwalk were turned into psychological rehab-centers.
Is that where heypaul summers?
Peace,
ANDEE
[What part of the A Rockaway line (and the Rockaway Park shuttle) are dangerous? I know trains don't run that often, which could make things
unsafe. Also I wonder how safe (and in terms of foot traffic) is
the JFK/Howard Beach station on the A? Is it safer taking the Q53 bus from Rego Park to get to Rockaway Park? I've always wondered if there any good parts of the Rockaways.]
Most of the subway-served portions of the Rockaway peninsula are rather run down. About the only exception is the middle-class Rockaway Park neighborhood around the Beach 116th terminus. The Belle Harbor and Neponsit neighborhoods farther west are quite prosperous, but they're beyond reach of the subway. I'd also say that much of the Arverne area is not run down in the strict sense of the term, but that's because it is a near-deserted ghost town, a mighty depressing sight. But as was noted earlier, even the bleakest areas probably are safe enough, at least during the day.
The JFK subway stop should be fine at any time.
[re condition of the Rockaways]
Just to add to my previous post, there's also a fairly affluent section of Far Rockaway, a mainly Orthodox Jewish district close to the Nassau line. But most of Far Rockaway is a lot worse off. That includes the area around the A train and LIRR terminals. Once again, you'd likely be safe enough exploring the neighborhood, but there's little if anything to see and the area's poverty and generally ramshackle condition might very well be depressing.
I'd never go to Far Rockaway. The only route I'd like to explore is the N-33 bus, which goes through western Long beach and Atlantic Beach. I wouldn't want to get off the bus though!
I remember once going to a shopping center in that area (Woodmere) and wanted to leave immediately. I used to like Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream but I haven't been there in years, that place is crazy and unsafe.
You have extremely sensitive views of safety.
I'm sure you stay out of Central Park at any time of day or night, especially north of 96th Street.
marty... how well do you know your way around new york city?... how comfortable are you if you were the only person of your race in an area?... do you want to get off at the stations and take pictures, or do you want to walk around neighborhoods?... will you be going out at night in dangerous areas?... what are you looking to do?...
on the lighter side... there is a rather dangerous group of people who you should avoid at all costs.. they can often be identified by the t shirts they wear... some of them wear shirts with the f line, or d line, or #7 line, or with pictures of r-40 slants... they may be carrying cameras... they will often be foaming at the mouth... beware of them... they are other railfans...
BTW, Marty, stay away from heypaul's neighborhood of Lambshead Bay. It is THE MOST dangerous neighborhood in the entire city! As a matter of fact the Mayor once remarked that he'd have to wear a bullet-proof vest just to go and campaign there!
The reason why that neighborhood is unsafe? Why it's because heypaul lives there!
Be afraid....be....verrrry....afraid...
:-)
Only if you walk on Ocean Ave between Ave U and Emmons Ave
HEY PAUL, you forgot to mentioned this old Italian Guy from California, Arcadia I think, one of those right winged Republicans who where s a extra large black T shirt with a Yellow Circled N on it. He is really dangerous
Sutter or Livonia Aves. on the "L" line after midnight would be on my "most scariest subway stations" list.
Can't right off think of any others right now.
Doug aka BMTman
In an earlier post I referred to Sutter - I should have clarified that as being during daylight hours. It is one of the dimmest platforms in existence, lit only by handfuls of small bare lite bulbs. That, along with Livonia and New Lots would certainly be less than safe during the wee hours. In fact, ANY station in an outlying area might be suspect during the overnight hours.
Scariest? WILSON upper level, about 4:00AM. You can almost hear the tombstones whispering to each other.
Wayne
Canal street bridge station
3AM
Yeah, kids going between the Brooklyn IRT and Brooklyn BMT.
BTW: When you're waiting for a train there, doesn't it seem like it's been years and still one hasn't come yet?
The bad neighborhoods are the poor neighborhoods, since most of those who are not poor get out of them.
There are two main poverty belts in the city. On runs along north of Eastern Parkway, south to Linden Boulevard and out to Queens, and includes the #3 New Lots line, the A/C Fulton Line, the J/M/Z Broadway Line, and The L Canarsie line.
The other includes the South Bronx and Upper Manhattan.
There are parts of these areas that aren't so bad, and pockets of other areas that are. But I have traveled all around the city in the daylight hours and never been bothered. In New York, an empty area is a dangerous area, so 4 a.m. can be iffy in many places.
[In New York, an empty area is a dangerous area, so 4 a.m. can be iffy in many places.]
Dunno. If an area's really deserted, criminal types aren't likely to be hanging around, simply because there may not be any potential victims. This may be a perceptions-vs.-reality situation. Deserted areas *seem* menacing. But that doesn't necessarily mean they actually are.
Let's put it this way...I grew up in Washington Heights/Inwood...it's so scary up there...even the roaches carry pepper spray!!
RIM SHOT!
Now I've walked around Washington Heights many times and never once felt afraid.
Getting back to a point Peter made earlier -- that white collar crime isn't as bad as street crime because the victims are dispersed, while street crime destroys neighborhoods, the NY Times has a big article today about how neighborhoods are coming back due to the decline in crime. This sort of confirms his point.
So why did people abandon the cities for the suburbs? I think crime and fiscal issues (live near the poor and you pay for them, shut them out and you get better schools and lower taxes) are the reason, rather than a preference for auto-oriented living per-se.
[So why did people abandon the cities for the suburbs? I think crime and fiscal issues (live near the poor and you pay for them, shut them out and you get better schools and lower taxes) are the reason, rather than a preference for auto-oriented living per-se.]
I couldn't agree more, and that article provides welcome evidence for that.
I've always been bothered by what I regard as the rationalizations of those who suggest that people move out of the cities because cities are economically obsolete or people simply prefer the suburbs. Some people do prefer the suburbs, of course, and cities aren't ideal for every kind of economic activity. The automobile has produced real changes in population patterns, although we may be reaching some kind of practical limit in that regard. Then too, an influx of poor people from the south contributed to a rise in crime and placed a strain on municipal services and finances. But it seems to me that the destruction of America's inner cities was essentially a result of misguided government policies.
How busy is downtown Flushing late at night (say 1 or 2am)?
Are there still people around or is it pretty desolate.
I'm guessing it's pretty quiet since the Wendy's shooting gunman got away (at first).
Its pretty busy late at night. Even at 11 at night there are somepeople around. I been seeing cops arounf 10 at night even before the Wendys incident. Most of the cops sit around watching, and most shops are close at that time. It can be quiet 2 am in the morning but If I was you, I would go about 10, 11 pm. Not many people around 1, 2 am I would imagine.
How busy is downtown Flushing late at night (say 1 or 2am)?
Are there still people around or is it pretty desolate.
I'm guessing it's pretty quiet since the Wendy's shooting gunman got away (at first).
After 8pm most stores start closing. By 11pm only a few popular places like McDonald's and (unfortunately) Wendy's would close. By 1am or 2am, my guess is about a very small handful of people walking around the Main St/Roosevelt Ave junction usually waiting for the buses to go elsewhere. If you go a few blocks away from there at that time you will not likely to see anyone. But during the daytime the area is very crowded.
I was surprised that neighborhood even have prostitutes. Thankfully she (or he) was one of those small handful of people in the area at that time.
It looks like F (BDQ) are the most dangerous lines. As far as I can remember all recent violent acts getting prime time have happened there. Recent pushing attempt, knife toting guy couple of months ago, previous pushings. Am I correct or it just seems to me this way.
Arti
Thanks for the info. which specific stations and neighbourhoods should we avoid visiting if we don't want any trouble.
[Thanks for the info. which specific stations and neighbourhoods should we avoid visiting if we don't want any trouble. ]
Sorry for misunderstanding, I wasn't really replying to your post. I wouldn't say F is generally dangerous. I just pointed out that it looks like F has made it to the news alot lately. Also these incidents have usually happened during rush/midday hours and are isolated.
Arti
None of the lines are dangerous, per se. Avoid riding from 11 p.m to 6.a.m, and avoid empty stations.
My main question here is am I correct remembering that all the recent pushing incidents (and other ones getting a lot of publicty) happened on F.
Arti
Empty stations are safe, its ones with one or two people you have to worry about. ;•)
Arti:
The "F" line does not worry me as much as the "L" 14th Street Canarsie line. The "L" runs through some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the 5 boroughs.
BMTJeff
[The "F" line does not worry me as much as ]
Me neither, I just pointed out that it seems to have made it to the front page a lot recently.
Arti
The line that scares me is the #3, with its route through East New York, Crown Heights, and Harlem. The G as well, as it cuts through Bed-Stuy and Ft. Green and is not heavily patronized. However, if your careful and it's during the day, no one line is exponentially more dangerous than another.
Stay away from lines heavily used by high-school kids when they let out. Avoid the B at all costs in Brooklyn from 2 PM to 4 PM on schooldays. Those would be the only exceptions.
I am a high school kid, railfan that sports a 7 line t-shirt AND I take the A to Brooklyn...BEWARE!
I'll be waiting...
-Daniel
Jeff, which stations are we talking about and what neighbourhood does the "L" line go through? If I wanted to visit these can I do it on my own or would this be to dangerous?
75,000 people do it every day. It's not like a warzone ...
The "L"s not that dangerous - I ride it all the time. I was just there on May 20, Sutter Avenue to be exact.
Your chances of finding a thug are pretty much the same at Sutter Avenue as they are at 68th and Lexington.
wayne
Wayne, when are you planning on giving your next tour?
Did you not get my E-mail? If not: June 17, 2000. E-mail me back if this is OK or Not OK.
wayne
[Your chances of finding a thug are pretty much the same at Sutter Avenue as they are at 68th and Lexington.]
Wayne, please do not discuss our comrade heypaul without his prior approval....
:-)
The L runs through the Williamsburg, Bushwick and Brownsville neighborhoods in north Brooklyn. At B'way Junction -- in East New York -- the Canarsie "L" line turns south and runs through New Lots, and then Canarsie, where the line terminates.
If you're by yourself, I'd say walking around in any of those neighborhoods is okay, so long as you're a person aware of your surroundings. However, in the rougher areas -- Bushwick and Brownsville -- there is nothing to see of interest along the route anyway. However, Williamsburg has alot of interesting waterfront history (not to mention the bustling artist's community ala SoHo). When you reach B'way Junction you'll encounter the vast interlocking and flyover connections between the "L" and "J" lines and the East New York Rapid Transit yard. Great photo ops over there from the Southbound "L" train platform. Of course as you head south on the Canarsie you will notice the LIRR Bay Ridge branch off to your right -- which is the real treat of riding the southern portions of the "L" line.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, the Atlantic Avenue station, with its multiple platforms, many stairways and 1917 architecture, should not be missed, especially since more than half of it will soon be gone.
Sutter Avenue station with its 1906 wooden crossunder, ancient platform canopy and tiny fare control area is another gem. This is what the long-lost Dean Street station on the Franklin Shuttle looked like.
Wayne
Wasn't Dean St the only station ever to have more recorded arrests for fare evasion than actual paying customers?
It got so bad there that they stopped enforcing it.
The platform shed design and entrance area is what I was referring to.
There isn't any real way to evade the fare at Sutter now that they have the MC turnstiles there. There's a camera and a bulletproof kiosk and the station agent is right on top of things.
wayne
Is Dean street station closed? and if so, why?
Did you read his message or are you just searching them for station names?
Ohhh,no! I've had my fill of sarcasm for the day thank you!!! I heard they had spent money on Franklin Botanic and Atlantic stations, just wondering what happened to dean?
Dean Street was permanently closed in 1995 and eliminated in the reconstruction of the shuttle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How was what I posted sarcastic?
You asked why it was closed, the answer was given, it needn't have been reiterated.
[just wondering what happened to dean?]
Dean St station wasn't heavily patronized enough.
Now my take on dangerous lines/neighborhoods. Stay away from sections in Upper Manhattan (1234569ABCD), South Bronx (2456BD), East NY/Brownsville Bklyn (34ACJLZ), Bed-Stuy (ACG). Basically drug-infested, high murder rate areas. ENY/Brownsville several years ago had the highest murder rate.
It was fare-beater Heaven and so was closed.
Also, it's close proximity to Park Place made it redundant. That's why it was removed during the Franklin Avenue Shuttle rebuild process.
Doug aka BMTman
I thought it was Franklin Avenue that it was close to.
Pigs, it' pretty much evenly spaced between the two, but you might have it right.
Doug aka BMTman
Is there any chance that the existing station has been or will be documented prior to its partial destruction by one one our intrepid Railfans?
Well, we DO have quite a write-up on it in the Line-By-Line section (BMT Canarsie Line), which may be expanded in the future as doomsday nears for the easternmost tracks.
Wayne
Wayne MrSlantR40:
I wonder what the 14th Street Canarsie line will be like once they make all of the intended changes?
BMTJeff
Well...the only major changes that are pending are that Atlantic Avenue will become a two-track station (or four-track, if they retain the middle two), and the Snediker Avenue elevated structure (and the S curve) will be removed - AND - Communications Based Train Control (CBTC) in conjunction with new R143 equipment.
Recent changes include:
Modernization/new tile at 8th Avenue
Modernization/new surfaces/tile at Union Square
Modernization/new lighting/new artwork at Lorimer Street;
New lighting in the mezzanine at Myrtle Avenue,
Installation of a new roof and crossover ("The Barn") at Broadway Junction.
What NEEDS to be done? Welll....(wish list, wish list)...
Modernization/upgrade/asbestos abatement at Sutter Avenue
Modernization at 6th Avenue
Water damage repair at Wilson Avenue lower level
are among the things I'd like to see done.
wayne
Wayne,
What makes one station more of a"renovation priority" than another?
eg: Sutter vs Atlantic.
That's a tough one to answer accurately.
Of course you have the good reasons (structural problem, community needs) and the not so good reasons (politics).
Sutter Avenue isn't scheduled for renovation.
Atlantic Avenue is. It's really not much of a renovation as it is a reconfiguration/demolition job. Broadway Junction IS a renovation - the entire complex is getting a facelift.
wayne
B'way Junction is a major transfer point. Sutter is just a stand-alone station with very little significance.
Doug aka BMTman
Hate to break late news to a fellow railfan, but a group of SubTalkers went out to Atlantic Avenue station on the Canarsie Line last Sunday and did infact do some picture taking. When the lab returns my prints, the details will be sent to the webmaster.
Doug aka BMTman
Can anyone post the exact plans that the TA will have for the new Atantic Ave. station? Will the Van Sinderen Ave platforms be reduced from 2 to 1 as well as the removing of the Sneideker Ave. el portion?
I believe that one platform is their goal, but it is a very short-sighted one as they are losing a good place for a layup/emergency turnaround. They should leave the middle two tracks and platform there.
I am really going to miss that "S" curve north of Sutter Avenue.
wayne
Yes, as a matter of fact the old Fulton Line's "K-1" track will be put to use as the new northbound track (renaming it "P-2").
The East New York Yard leads will also be realigned to match with the re-constructed interlocking between B'way Junction and Atlantic Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
They're not going to remove the Flyover connection to the "J", are they?
wayne
Yes, the flyover will remain. It's really necessary since J and Z trains often get layed over at Canarsie Yard.
Doug aka BMTman
And let us not forget the surprise outside-of-fare-control staircase that the Canarsie Tour group discovered at the ancient New Lots Avenue stationhouse (it was a feature of a station when fares were collected on the trains).
BTW, when my shots come back from the lab, they'll be promptly sent to the Webmaster.
Doug aka BMTman
marty:
East of Broadway Junction you should be quite careful because the neighborhood the train runs through may be quite rough. Keep in mind these were the conditions of seven years ago.Things may have changed since then.
BMTJeff
[The "F" line does not worry me as much as the "L" 14th Street Canarsie line. The "L" runs through some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the 5 boroughs.]
I don't agree. Except for a few stops, the L serves mostly working-class neighborhoods in Brooklyn. In fact, the area around Bedford Avenue is quite trendy.
Right, Peter.
The funny thing is the L has a "bad spot", being really two stops, the Sutter and Livonia Avenue stations being the area in question.
Doug aka BMTman
Graham Avenue is in a very nice area, called either East Williamsburg or Northeast Brooklyn. I never even knew about it until I was there on the surface.
The L goes through the most dangerous neighborhoods in the city...
And the last stop on the Orient Express is Shanghai.
thanks for the info, what part of town does the "L" line go through and what erea are you refering too?
Do I HAVE to activate my sarcasm mode whenever I post like that? Wasn't the Orient Express comment clue enough.
The most dangerous line in the city is the Lexington, it goes through the Upper East Side one block east of Park Avenue, where all those rich debutantes would just love to rob and kill someone like you.
The most dangerous stations in the city are 14th Street on the Lex and South Ferry on the IRT but they're only dangerous if you DON'T stand clear of the moving platform as train enters and leaves the station.
Some dumbass stood on the moving platform as the train was leaving and was yelling and cursing at the conductor for not reopening the doors. Conductor had a good laugh as the platform jerked back causing the irate passenger to fall on his ass on the platform. A 10 year old pointed and laughed. Good times at 14st...
[re safety of the L line]
Another thing about the L is that it doesn't seem to have many beggars and other skells. I suspect that's because it serves mainly working-class areas, populated by people who probably don't have much sympathy for skells.
The skells are found on the "E" train. I saw a Drunk sleeping it off in #4404 on the "L" once though (March 7 1999).
wayne
Also my mere presence on the Canarsie Line scares the hell out of most street-trash anyway.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Now that you mention it, there is a line that seems to have more than its share of cutthroats. For some reason the G seems to have a lot of unseemly characters. When I took that train back to the Pan American Inn last summer, I got some strange looks and kept a tight hold on my wallet. Most of those guys got off at Queens Plaza and it was AOK after that to my stop at Broadway.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
The 14th Street Canarsie once known as Route #16 now known as the "L" was the line that gave me the creeps particularly the segment between Broadway Junction to Canarsie because it ran through some pretty tough neighborhoods.
BMTJeff
[Now that you mention it, there is a line that seems to have more than its share of cutthroats. For some reason the G seems to have a lot of unseemly characters. When I took that train back to the Pan American Inn last summer, I got some strange looks and kept a tight hold on my wallet. Most of those guys got off at Queens Plaza and it was AOK after that to my stop at Broadway.]
It's not too surprising, as the G runs through some fairly rough neighborhoods and usually isn't too crowded.
We've got at least 8 different beggars who hang out at the L Bedford Ave station to guilt the dotcommies (local speak for the young wealthy trendy computer geeks) who have moved in in the past couple of years. Four years ago it was only Harmonica Tony (now deceased) and Diabetic Frank.
Most beggars and skells are far from stupid, and favor the lines that serve the touristy parts of downtown and midtown, especially on weekends. The '1' and 'N', which serve the Ferry, Trade Center, the Village, Times Square and Central Park, often has a different coming into your car every stop. They seem to know that tourists are more sympathetic and apt to give.
I haven't seen too many beggars on rush hour trains going to and from the outer boroughs, possibly (a) because they're too crowded for them to make their way through; or (b) they know most seasoned rush hour commuters generally turn a deaf ear to their ramblings.
For some reason, a lot of loud religious zealots seem to frequent the lines radiating from downtown Brooklyn.
[For some reason, a lot of loud religious zealots seem to frequent the lines radiating from downtown Brooklyn.]
We have some real wackos in the Bronx too.
A few years ago, I was on a downtown D train and encountered a lunatic preacher who threatened us all with Satan. He was smart enough to wait until the train pulled out of Tremont Southbound as he new we had about a 10 minute ride till we got to 145. During that time, he was very annoying threatening each of us as individuals with the consequences of h-ll.
The luny preacher quieted down between 145 and 125 and I guess most of us thought he was done.
But - he wasn't. As we pulled away from 125 the insane ranting about Satan began again. And out of frustration, I made a comment to him that I thought he'd be going to h-ll alot faster than I would - mostly for annoying so many people who didn't want to hear his bs.
In response to this, he focused on me for the whole ride to 59 where I finally got off the train to escape this lunatic preacher and his racket.
He followed me out of the car and ranted at me by platform edge. This continued for about a minute until I got a cop involved. The nonsense only stopped after the cop hauled this guy away - apparently for menacing.
The United Homeless Organization frequents the F train in the evening rush. They get off at 7th Avenue and return to Manhattan.
Most of the folks who actually cough up money, in my observation, are Afro-Americans.
Brooklyn was called the City of Churches. Although the churches in question were of the mainstream* variety. Of course, many of the zealots claim to be from churches which we consider "mainstream."
*-Common religion, not the Movementarians or some other cult.
[For some reason, a lot of loud religious zealots seem to frequent the lines radiating from downtown Brooklyn.]
That might have something to do with a large mental halfway-house in Boerum Hill that frequently has it's borders roaming through the area (or occasionally riding the subway). There were real problems years ago, but every none and then you'll see a wacko yelling and screaming at shadows or a lamp post.
Doug aka BMTman
As a daily Canarsie L train rider, I must say that I disagree with your assessment of that line. True, it runs through some rough area in the eastern section of Brooklyn -- and a couple of stops along the elevated section through New Lots -- overall it is a safe line.
It also has to be pointed out that nearly any subway line (or neighborhood for that matter) in the city is safe during the day. At night only the "ritziest" neighborhoods are without problems (this includes Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope and Mill Basin). It's been my experience that if you're in a group situation (four or more) you should do okay in even the toughest of neighborhoods.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, a group of three also works.
You, Smith and Wesson.
The area around the 36th street B,N,R station on 4th ave BMT is also rather run down. I walked a few blocks southwest of the station (the area is considered part of Sunset Park) looking for a chinese printing company. There was hardly anybody walking around, alot of closed factories, and an intimidating gang of kids at one of the corners.
Lots of no longer used freight tracks in the area, but the area is too unsafe to explore them. Suffice to say, I couldn't find the printing company and got the hell out of there.
Funny thing is I did see alot of car traffic, with some fancy cars like a BMW and Lincoln around, and business people. I don't know why anybody with money would dare go into that cruddy area. It's like an industrial wasteland. Very different from "Sunset Park" on 8th avenue which is not that bad.
I walked to Bush Terminal from that station along the track that connects to the subway. Other than a dog penned up behind a fence, so no other scary life forms (didn't see it either, only heard). Many non-english speaking people were coming out of some alley and heading for buses and the train. Saw in the scrapyard many retired buses, including my favorite; 3003, digital sign reading [[[[ (or a bunch of dots, forgot which). As for intimidating gangs of kids, don't make eye contact and stare at the floor.
(Funny thing is I did see alot of car traffic, with some fancy cars like a BMW and Lincoln)
Where I come from that usually means drugs are for sale.
What part of town is this in?If we want to go explore these used freight tracks and empty factories, what would be the fastest and safest way to do.
It's an exaggeration, don't take it seriously.
Take the B,N, or R to 36th street. You can catch the B70 to the waterfront, but it only runs about every half hour. Buses run so infrequently, that it pays to walk south down 4th avenue, then head west toward the water on 41st ave. There is a railyard which appeared to have trains in it, also the tracks ran on the street. It looks like there is alot of tracks in this area, now vacant factories probably used them in the past.
Probably the best times are around noon, before any kids get out of school. I really found the area to be pretty much a dump, except for all the interesting RR ROW's. Too bad they couldn't be re-used today, like for trolley or light rail service, which could make the area more appealing. Bus service is pretty bad in that area since I guess there aint much there.
Try contacting the Transit Museum. A tour is being sponsored by them for Saturday, June 24 that will include many rail-related sites between Bush Terminal and the Brooklyn Army Terminal.
Doug aka BMTman
I had to pick up a car from a body shop on 27TH Street. It was held there for the police precinct there as it was stolen and recovered (I had to ride the bus for two weeks), I didn't find the neighborhood to be barren and dangerous, maybe under the Gowanus at 3rd Avenue.
And 36TH Street is the boundary between sequential addresses and grid-based ones. The address was 247 and I thought it was towards the waterfront from 3RD Avenue, when it was actually at 5TH
Another thing to mention: Some of those people may have been driving through, avoiding Gowanus traffic.
[The area around the 36th street B,N,R station on 4th ave BMT is also rather run down. I walked a few blocks southwest of the station (the area is considered part of Sunset Park) looking for a chinese printing company. There was hardly anybody walking around, alot of closed factories, and an intimidating gang of kids at one of the corners.
Lots of no longer used freight tracks in the area, but the area is too unsafe to explore them. Suffice to say, I couldn't find the printing company and got the hell out of there.]
That's the same general area as some of us Subtalkers explored last September on our "Brooklyn waterfront" tour. It's really not as bad as it seems. Many of these seemingly abandoned industrial buildings are still very much active.
That's the area near Bush Terminal. It is industrialized and makes the place look seedy, but it is not as dangerous as it looks -- at least not during 9-5 when the area is bustling with businesses.
The 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, A, B, C, and D trains in Harlem worry me. I was talking with a relative who lives on 110th Street and told me it I were to take the M60 in from the airport, take it to 110/Bway and then take the M4 to the Upper East Side leaving me at 5th Avenue when I need to get to 3rd with a backpack and suitcase and I've used my transfer so the M79 is not an option unless I pay additional (although I would then arrive at Penn Station if I knew I was going to my grandparents' place alone).
Why not take M60 to Astoria Blvd. N station.
Arti
Take the 6 from 125TH Street
I would if it weren't so unsafe to get off at that intersection. It doesn't really matter though because I take Amtrak to Penn Station almost all the time anyway.
Why is it unsafe? Because you could get mugged there?
You could just as easily get mugged on 5th Avenue in the E 60s near the Park.
If you are going to 79th Street? It does work but it would take a LONG time.
I'm going to say what I always say in answering the question as to what the most dangerous line/station/bus route in New York City is:
Ask the NYPD Transit Bureau.
Any information participants on a website or newsgroup can provide is anecdotal, at best.
I'm not saying this to be a troll or to be argumentative. It's better to find out for sure than to be swayed by speculative posts.
New York Police Department
1 Police Plaza
New York NY 10038
David
[I'm going to say what I always say in answering the question as to what the most dangerous line/station/bus route in New York City is:
Ask the NYPD Transit Bureau. ]
OK, I should have put dangerous in quotation marks. My point was that it seems that this line makes it to the new the most.
Arti
Are there still any old 70's graffiti cars in use?If not are they in some place for the public to see and how can we get there?
Thankfully, this is the only way, as all cars are grafitti free today (more or less, as car cleaners have been doing a half-assed job at grafitti-removal lately, but that's another story):
Wow Chris. One hell of a picture! Where was this taken, did you take it, and can we visit this site? Furthur more on the dangerous lines. Are there any subway tours given, or our we left to our own devices for touring these ereas.
Well judging from the fact that a lot of cars in the background, were R12s, the cars had the blue stripe reminiscent of the late 70s and 80s, and all the cars were dirty, I'd say this photo was taken about two decades ago (correct me if I'm wrong). If you want to see subway graffiti, there is a book out called "Subway Art" by martha Cooper and Henry Chalfant published by Owl Books. I have it and although I deplore messy vandalism, the works documented in this book are real works of art.
-Daniel
Perhaps on canvas, but on public property it's vandalism, no matter how pretty it looks. BTW, those cars in the background are R7/R9 cars, as this picture was taken in the ENY yard.
Those cars in the background (that aren't round roofed) are R-10s, not R7/9s.
You can tell by the ogee roofs and distinctive vents
No they AIN'T R10, they are R-12 or R-14. Three doors. See the little side destination signs; an R-10 would have two over one window, a third over another. These have three - one over each of the three windows, and I can see the top of one of the numbers: since when was #5853 an R-10 and when did R-10s have three doors per side? And there's a Lo-V Rider car back there (RD320). I am not sure what yard this is but it doesn't look like ENY - more like Coney Island, maybe.
The car with the Nudie Suit on is an R27-30.
wayne
After further scrutiny, this cannot be the ENY yard, as the picture is captioned. According to that caption, this pic is an R16, at the ENY yard in December 1982. Those ARE R10 AND R12/14 cars, which leads me to believe that this pic was taken at the Concourse yard. Better get Dave to re-caption this pic.
I don't think Concourse Yard has multiple levels as implied in the foreground of the picture. But ENY does.
Are you SURE it's not ENY yard?
--Mark
No. I'm not an expert on some of these older cars. There does appear to be an R12 and an R27/30 in the pic together, leading me to think it could be the Concourse yard. Perhaps it's the 207th St. yard?
I went back to the picture to look a little harder - the R12s particularly caught my attention: One is Yellow and the other two appear to have "3"s in front of their original numbers, meaning that these are work motors. SO - based on that - I'm going with East New York yard - based on the standing lamps.
Wayne
Here's another pic from a different angle showing the multi-levels of East New York Yard. The first picture posted in this thread is definitely ENY.
yup, you're right. I'm mystified by all those recently retired R12's there, though. Perhaps they were sent there to tow the R16's up and down the J line. By 1982, those cars were on life support ...
They (R-16) were on life support long before that. They were yanked offthe Jamaica el by the time I was a road M/M in l967. Before I left in l977 they were the next cars out of service (storage) after the last R9's were gone. If my memory serves me right the R10's outlived them.
Yes, the R16's were retired in 1987, the R10's in 1989.
Yes, the R10s DID indeed outlive the R16. And quite a few of the remaining GOH R10s were still roadworthy even when they were retired. I believe they could have gone on at least until 1993.
Fools - they only preserved ONE of them and they had a few dozen good ones left in '89. You'd think they'd have learned from the 1965 retirement of the still-good D-Types.
wayne
The Triplexes could EASILY have lasted another ten years. It's one thing to put the R-16s out of their misery. Sending the Triplexes to slaughter when they were still rolling along as good as ever is another.
IIRC, the R-16s were scattered around the system after Chrystie St. I rode on them across the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967 on a 15 train. You can imagine my surprise at that marking; I thought, what's a 15?
Yes, the first place the R16 settled down to after Chrystie Street was an invasion of the "RR". This lasted until somewhere about mid-1969. Then they lumped together in the "EE" and "GG". This lasted until about 1976, when they went back to Eastern Division after making a brief appearance on the "N" as it transitioned from the "EE".
wayne
I wonder if those same thirty-two R-16s which filled in on the GG during the 1966 Jamaica Yard crisis returned during the 70s.
Probably. The entire fleet of 199 (198 after 5/20/1970) were assigned to Queens Yard in 1969 thru 1976.
wayne
05/31/2000
Does anybody remember those R-16's with the front and sides painted silver and doors blue? They didn't touch the filthy roofs! I was told they were painted in the yard. I was also told that the were painted like that for Franklin Shuttle service, yet they never saw service in the paint. The interiors were of course tan walls and orange doors. I believe this was in the early 80's.
Bill "Newkirk"
05/28/2000
[The car with the Nudie Suit on is an R27-30]
The car I believe you are talking about is the paint canvas in question? Even though the number boards are painted over, the best way to tell the R-16 apart from the 27/30 is the roof vents. The R-16's are indeed wider. It looks as though that's a mixed consist.
Bill "Newkirk"
And the door windows are a little larger on the R27/R30. Not sure if that's a mixed consist or just a two-car layup there, but the car with the paint job is not an R16; it's an R27/R30. Compare it to the 8300 series car in the foreground.
wayne
Also, if you look at the end bulkhead of the car to the right of the one that's obliterated, you'll see there aren't any marker lights. It does indeed appear to be an R-27/30 pair coupled to that R-16.
05/28/2000
[Those cars in the background (that aren't round roofed) are R-10s, not R7/9s.]
Paul,'
ChrisR16 may be right. Look at the R-16 #6434 in the very back of the photo. To the right is a deck roofed car that doesn't seem like a Low-V. Looks like a R7 or 9.
Bill "Newkirk"
You may be right, Bill. But that guy is so dark and in the background I didn't even notice it.
Right you are!
I was so busy looking at the surroundings and the roofs, I never bothered to count the doors or notice they were kinda short.
I'll tell all of you what ticks me off. On the Subway webpage, there are four trains that are shown and sometimes they are replaced. I have seen only one of my Sea Beach trains featured, and that was a picture from July of 1976 when graffiti was in full flower. It is an ugly looking train and I hope if they decide to feature a Sea Beach train they could do a lot better than the one they've shown. How about an old Triplex or an R4?
The four pictures on the front page are selected randomly from 72 images each time the page is loaded. Occasionally I add more to the selection pool.
And by the way, you don't have to refer to "me" as "they". I do read the board you know. You could just suggest what you wanted without sounding as if it's a personal affront.
-dave
Sea Beach Fred, you are in deep kaka with the Boss David
I don't think I ever saw three R-12s coupled together in a train. Two, perhaps, but not three. In that photo, it occurs twice.
Nope, I merely linked it from this website. It's an R16, freshly vandalized at the East New York Yard in the mid-70's, one of the many indignities these cars had to deal with during their service life.
marty, I could give you a tour of the lines you're interested in. Only thing is my tour fees might be abit high (depends on whether or not you want the 'Drive-By-shooting Tour of Northern Brooklyn').
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Yep, I remember seeing cars like that, with the entire side just obliterated. Sickening...
Remember tonight's chat at 8/7 Central.
Visit http://subtalklive.cjb.net for more information about how to connect.
Does anyone have an Updated Track Drawing/Chart ??
I have a copy from last year,,,however,I understand
there have or will be changes in the not so distant
future.
I was able to obtain earlier drawings from Amtrak Rules and LIRR Instructor Personnel.(Circa 1999)
Thanks,
Steve
I just saw a report on Fox of a derailment on the Flushing Line. A work train was involved, and it wasn't serious enough to disrupt service. Anyone have details?
-Stef
The report you heard was over 6 hours old. As it happened, a work train, working on a closed section of #2 track south of Main St. was involved in a minor incident around 2 PM. One axle of a crane car derailed. This resulted in less than minor service delays as the track was already out of service.
On the 3 today I saw 2 sets of linked R-62As. I rode 1596 an noticed several things:
1 - Black Floor (this car only) - Thought they were only on R68a.
2 - Yard stickers from Pelham.
3 - 6 strip maps in all cars on both ends.
4 - Shudder Transverse cabs.
I guess there are a few R-62 singles floating around on the 6.
BTW - Does the <6> express run on Saturday, because I saw a train with the front sign set to that.
So the R62/R62As on the 6 has ended up on #5 and #3... preparation for the R142s I guess.
As to the question, perhaps someone have a definitive answer.
Does this mean the 3 was running with 10 cars? Or did one of the linked sets consist of just 4 cars?
As for the <6>, it does not run on Saturdays.
The R62s and R62As are linked in 5-car sets.
Except on the 3 line, even though Ive seen a four car linked set........
3TM
One linked set, 4 singles.
Those 2 sets of link cars have been on the 3 since December. The cars are 1886-1890 and 1896-1900.
I see them almost everyday......
BTW, I saw 1914 yesterday. IT STILL HAVE THE PELHAM STICKER ON!!!!!!!!!!
3Train#1914Mike
That is #1696, not #1596 (that one's a regular R62 on the #4)- they also have a black floor in #1391 because of a fire; I belive they had a fire under #1696 as well.
The Diamond 6 doesn't run on weekends (it should) - the sign was set wrong.
wayne
This is what happens when I post st two in the morning. It actually was 1896, I haven't a clue where I got 1596 from.
Brooklyn Bridge Magazine has published average Brooklyn weekday ridership by station.
Five busiest:
Boro Hall 30,406
Utica Avenue 26,048
Jay Street 23,263
Atlantic Avenue (IRT) 21,061
Flatbush Avenue (IRT terminal) 17,054
Five emptiest:
Park Place (S) 383
Botanic Garden (S) 413
Atlantic Avenue (L) 523
Bushwick-Aberdeen (L) 693
Bay Parkway (F) 890
I like the new Shuttle stations. But did the MTA pour a lot of money down a hole rebuilding them? Could they have spent less, given their extremely low ridership?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Rebuilding the stations was part of a complete structural rehabilitation of the whole line. The project was foisted on the MTA as the price of getting the last Capital Program approved. In other words, the decision was politically-based, rather than need-based.
David
The project was foisted on the MTA as the price of getting the last Capital Program approved. In other words, the decision was politically-based, rather than need-based.
I noticed that the Atlantic Ave Station on the Canarsie Line is also on the list of least used stations. I heard that this station is also scheduled for a complete structural rehabilitation and that this project originates withinn the MTA. Are you implying that an extra 200 passengers per day qualifies for a "need-based" decision?
[I noticed that the Atlantic Ave Station on the Canarsie Line is also on the list of least used stations. I heard that this station is also scheduled for a complete structural rehabilitation and that this project originates withinn the MTA. Are you implying that an extra 200 passengers per day qualifies for a "need-based" decision? ]
Isn't it to reduce the cost of maintenance, they're removing tracks also.
Arti
The structure that carries the Atlantic Avenue station on the Canarsie Line is being rehabilitated, including the consolidation of trackage in the area of the station. This is being done, in conjunction with CBTC and new cars, to speed up service.
And let's not get into an argument over the supposed benefits of CBTC again. I've still got a headache from the last time :-)
David
This is being done, in conjunction with CBTC and new cars, to speed up service.
How will this new sped up service compare to that provided by the Multi's prior to 1961?
Me no know.
David
The reason for the Atlantic Av rehab is that they are taking down the el on Sneidiker Av (S/B trains) s all the trains will run on VanSinderin Av.
By the way experts, anyone know if that's the only spot in the city where two els run on consecutive parallel streets? (In the present, so the 2nd & 3rd Av els don't count)
The reason for the Atlantic Av rehab is that they are taking down the el on Sneidiker Av (S/B trains) s all the trains will run on VanSinderin Av.
You are describing what is to be done - not the reason for doing it. The poster to whom I replied implied that station use was the determining factor in the MTA's resons for rehabilitation. He also implied that a dislike for "politically-based" rather than "need-based" decisions.
I brought up the Atlantic Av rehab because is shows that the MTA does not always follow this "need-based" criterion for its own priorities. The same gentleman has in another post excused this deviation on the basis of speeding up service.
I have since inquired regarding a comparison of the speed of the new service to be provided as opposed to that which had been provided by higher performance equipment on the same line some 40-60 years ago. I would not have posed this question had I not known that the answer would debunk the increased speed rationale.
The MTA has its own arbitrary and capricious set of priorities. I resent the pejorative comments used by the MTA and its defenders towards its critics, when these priorities are questioned.
There is no doubt that the $80 million spent on the Franklin Ave El reconstruction could have benefited more riders at the time it was spent. However, the line was in danger of imminent collapse as a result of 60 years of neglect. The MTA has a demonstrated lack of ability to build new facilities once existing facilities are dismantaled. The Franklin Ave reconstruction is the price that the present generation had to pay for the MTA's previous performance.
By the way experts, anyone know if that's the only spot in the city where two els run on consecutive parallel streets? (In the present, so the 2nd & 3rd Av els don't count)
This is a red herring. There are two current instances of parallel services involving subways and els. The first are the 6th, 7th and 8th Avenue subways in Manhattan. The second is the Fulton St Subway and the Atlantic Ave El of the LIRR. Are you proposing discontinuing any of these services due to its close proximity to its neighbor?
I am the "gentleman" in question. Evidently Mr. Bauman don't know me very well, do he?
In any case, I'm merely repeating the given reasons for rebuilding the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and for rebuilding the Canarsie Line in the area of the Atlantic Avenue station. I'm not saying that I agree with them or that I disagree with them, just that those were the reasons given.
Additionally, it is not fair to compare system performance 40 years ago with system performance now. It should be, but it isn't. The emphasis is on safety AT ALL COSTS. NYCT's credo is that "slow is safe." Whether it should be or not is not a matter I'm discussing; it just IS.
David
Why aren't you discussing it? It's a policy choice, not a law of nature. TA has made a deliberate choice to cover up its managerial failings by reducing the speed of the trains.
It's my policy not to discuss my opinions on NYCT policy. I work for the place and I want to keep working for it, OK?
David
Sorry. I didn't know.
You misunderstood me. I meant two els on two consecutive blocks, such as Van Sinderin & Sneidiker. Even if I included underground lines, the Fulton Street IND and the Bklyn LIRR would still not be on 2 consecutive streets since Herkimer Street is between Atlantic and Fulton.
...the Fulton Street IND and the Bklyn LIRR would still not be on 2 consecutive streets since Herkimer Street is between Atlantic and Fulton.
I was referring to the part between Washington and Carlton Aves.
BTW another past example is the Myrtle and Park Ave Els.
I imagine the West End, Sea Beach and/or Culver must be on consecutive blocks at some point before Stillwell.
I know you are talking about the IRT Utica Station (3,4,5) and not the IND (A,C) right??????? Just trying to avoid confusion.....
3TM
I remember well that Bay Parkway of the F line was very lightly used. Hardly ever saw anybody. Surrounded by a cemetary... any chance there were some unseen passengers there?
Does this only include paying passangers? If transferring passangers count, then Broadway East NY, Dekalb Ave. and Stillwell Ave. beat them all ...
My guess is it must be turnstile counts. I also subscribe to Brooklyn Bridge.
And yes, the Franklin shuttle re-build was an inefficient use of money. The area would have been better spent rebuilding the Franklin Ave junction (1st proposed 30 years ago at least). But the past trumps the future every time.
Having rebuilt it, they run so few trains that the wait is interminable.
What was the "Franklin Ave junction"?
"Franklin Avenue" Junction, actually called Rogers Junction (Rogers Avenue's above it), is where the Nostrand Avenue Line meets/diverges from the Eastern Parkway Line. At various times NYCT has proposed reconfiguring it to increase the number of Seventh Avenue Line trains that can use it.
David
Actually I think if they'd just knock out the wall (no easy task I'd imagine) on the southbound tracks where the local has to first move left then branch off to the Flatbush line, and run a straight track through there, that would solve the problem.
Unless the Flatbush Ave terminal gets completely overhauled, there is no need. This terminal already works to maximum capacity during the rush hours.
That's where the little used Bay Ridge LIRR line comes into play. There have been proposals that would increase rush-hour Flatbush-bound trains by extending the Flatbush IRT onto the Bay Ridge just a mere 2 blocks to the south of "The Junction". The LIRR tracks would be used as the turn-around point.
Doug aka BMTman
Wait a minute. How would you get into the Bay Ridge Division? Wouldn't you have to go into the cutat grade, and cutting off freight service? You couldn't go under it with the Buckeye Pipeline there.
Larry, having lived on E. 32nd by Glenwood (a block and a half away from the Bay Ridge) I remember that the Buckeye Pipeline is on the farside of the ROW (southern most point) away from where a turn-out would be placed for the Flatbush Line.
Doug aka BMTman
Kevin --
Did the article list the source of those numbers? I've been curious about ridership by station for a long time, but have never been able to pin down any numbers.
Alternately, do you know where I could pick up a copy of that mag?
Chuck
Consider them cultural and museum pieces.
I would submit the Brighton Line (including the shuttle) has more history per inch than any other line in the Ciry.
[Five busiest:
Boro Hall 30,406
Utica Avenue 26,048
Jay Street 23,263
Atlantic Avenue (IRT) 21,061
Flatbush Avenue (IRT terminal) 17,054]
Atlantic surely would jump up the list if you included the IND as well as the BMT at Pacific.
Where does Brooklyn's busiest rank in comparison with the overall system list, such as Grand Central and 42st-8th Avenue, and 34th-8th Avenue.
As of 1997 (the latest year I have complete figures for), the busiest station in Brooklyn was the Court Street/Borough Hall complex. It ranked #23. The busiest station outside Manhattan was Main Street at #14; the next busiest outside Manhattan were the 74th Street/Roosevelt Avenue complex and Jamaica Center at #18 and #19, respectively. The top 15 stations in the system accounted for 25% of total systemwide registrations.
Someone's bound to ask, so the busiest station in the Bronx was the 161st Street-Yankee Stadium complex at #43.
David
I saw them at Times Square yesterday on the downtown platform.
Car #5940 (talked about a lot) has a brown diamond R, and it was the lead car. But the last car, Car #6128, also had a brown diamond R on the back of that car!
Nick
I counted 5 trains like that the first weekend of the GO. Possible explanations (first 2 are reasons it was done on purpose):
1. To force people to read the side sign and see JAMAICA CENTER.
2. To show it was going to Jamaica Center (J and Z are brown).
3. The train was on the E before the GO, and between (E) and (R) lies < R >.
Am going to NYC on vacation starting June 1st (this Thursday) and would like to know if any Redbirds are still in service. If they are still in operation, would appreciate knowing what lines they're currently running on. Also need to know what lines see the R41 and R44's? Believe the #7 had Redbirds last I heard. Thanks in advance for any assistance provided!
Robert in South Bend, Indiana
[Am going to NYC on vacation starting June 1st (this Thursday) and would like to know if any Redbirds are still in service. ]
Plenty, 2,4,5,6 and all trains on 7. Sometimes I've seen tham on 3.
Arti
.......I was told they will still be there this october .......
There are no redbirds on the 3. The 3 is all siver foxes, just like the 1 and 9 line. 2 and 7 lines are all redbirds. The 5 line is 99.5% redbirds and the 4 and 6 lines have redbirds as well...........
3TM
There is no such thing as R41 -
R40 can be found on the "L" and "Q" (occasionally on the "B" and "N")
R40M can be found on the "J", "L" and "M" (and the rush-hour "Z")
R42 can be found on the same lines as the R40M.
R44 can be found on the "A".
wayne
"There is no such thing as R41"
Actually, Wayne, there are six (6) R-41s and all still in service. They are diesel Locos #54 to #59 and can be found all over the system. They were built in 1968 and overhauled in 1987.
Thank you for the heads-up; I guess I should have said "There is no such car as R41 in revenue service"...
I wonder if the R41 have slanted ends.....NO, JUST KIDDING!!!
Wayne
Yes, they do have slanted ends, but the slants are UPSIDE DOWN as compared to the beloved R-40s :)
--Mark
Hey, ANOTHER South Bend native on Subtalk. I love it! What part of town are you from? I used to live less than a mile from Town & Country, to the north. Go up Hickory Rd., turn left on Corby and right on Whitehall Dr. and you're in my old neighborhood.
The Redbirds are still alive and well, from a mechanical standpoint. Many, especially the older ones, are suffering from corrosion.
They can be found on all IRT routes except the 1, 3, and 9.
Has MTA ever considered connecting Brigton exp tracs to Culver exp?
Assuming they would do it after Brighton Church Ave station, how long of a tunnel would they have to build and would it be any savings in speed?
Arti
It was considered much further north, in fact, north of DeKalb Ave to the Rutgers St tunnel of the F train, as a way of alleviating traffic problems caused by the Manhattan Bridge rehab and its future outlook.
--Mark
Both proposals (Brighton-->Culver via Prospect Park and via Dekalb/Rutgers) have been made over the years. The first was made by Assemblyman Feldman ca. 1982, and the second was made recently in the MTA's East River Crossings study. Neither got much airplay.
David
Why ever would they need to build a tunnel under Church Avenue to add more service to the underused McDonald Avenue line?? I lived between the two lines for 20 years. If the Culver needed more service they could add it in a minute. They could run G trains to Church Avenue, even make short runs to Bedford-Nostrand to get more service on that part. If they wanted they could extend the E train into Brooklyn. And no 1.5 mile tunnel under a narrow major street would be needed. But none of that is necessary. There are lots of 2 miles connections that could be made, but why spend $1B on that when they could use the money to build something more than marginally useful, like the Archer Avenue line to St. Albans or the 2nd Avenue Subway.
[Why ever would they need to build a tunnel under Church Avenue to add more service to the underused McDonald Avenue line??]
Not under Church but Prospect Park, it seems that the express tracks of "F" under the park are pretty near to Brighton line, are they? Idea is to get some service off the bridge and into underused tunnel. I'm also speculating that the run would be faster than over the bridge. Also less merging on 6th Ave exp tracks.
Arti
about a mile apart
School is comming to an end, and so I will be forced away from an internet connection. That means no Subtalk. I will be gone for most of the Summer and will not be able to post.
I will try to get on where every I am, so I could drop by sometimes.
In other news, metrocard.cjb.net will be relocated to nymetrocard.com sometime in the next month. And it will be done.
well, so long, see you soon
Patrick
metrocard.cjb.net
Looking for any yard we can visit that might have these old cars.
The graffiti is gone, may it never return. Your best bet at finding graffiti is in a Los Angeles-area freight yard - seems to be a lot of it originating there over the last couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only the great train yard in the sky has it now.
--Mark
Frankly, I hope that particular era is gone for good. It was depressing, even repulsive, to see every car in the system utterly desecrated by scribbling and spray paint.
Who were these people vandalizing the transit system and have they ever been caught ? Have they been prosecuted?
It is our taxe dollar at work cleaning up the system as well as paying security guards cameras fences in the yards. The list goes on and on.In the long run, it all comes back to us!
The exterior painting didn't bother me too much if it was done well (most of it wasn't) - but the interior scribbling drove me NUTS! Picture this: a dimly-lit R-14 IRT car with EVERY SQUARE INCH of its interior covered in unintelligible marker scrawl and spray paint - even the plastic lenses over the lights AND the individual fan blades inside their cages were written on! Add to this a skell's mess at one end, general litter and filth everywhere else and it got verrrrry disturbing.
wayne
Interesting visual ! When did the subway art movement begin and at what point did it get out of hand?
For it to have come to the point where every inch of the inside and outside of a car was done, the MTA must have lost control of the situation.
How much does it cost to keep the cars clean on a day to day basis?
There is no such thing as "subway art", unless it's an approved project. It never got out of hand. It was out of hand when it started. Please stop referring to grafitti as anything but the criminal defacement of public properety.
I agree with you Chris.
No one has ever answered my question about criminal charges on those who might have gotten caught vandalizing the subway system. Have any grafitti tags been been caught and prosecuted in court or is this a crime that goes unpunished?
Graffitiists are caught all the time and are sent to court all the time. Whether they are convicted or not is up to the judge, and in a jury trial, the jury.
NYCT(A) at one time had a program called WARP (Work Alternative Restitution Program), under which graffitiists were sentenced to removing graffiti, cleaning stations, etc. I don't think it's around anymore.
David
I recall hearing that placing graffiti on transit cars had become a felony, and that some graffiti vandals had been convicted under the "three strikes, you're out" programs. The truth of this, I haven't verified...
That's impossible because New York doesn't have the "Three Strikes" law.
I believe they DO have a law regarding "predicate felons", the specifics of which I am not sure of. I have heard some of my fellows describing their run-ins with the law (mostly DWI and aggravated unlicensed operation of a motor vehicle) and having been threatened with long prison sentences, ranging up to life, so I am told, under this aspect of the New York State criminal law. Again, the specifics of this law I am not sure of.
wayne
yeah, but it's a misdemeanor. Getting arrested really only serves the tagger's purpose, as he can strut through his "hood", proclaiming he's a "badass"...
05/30/2000
The grafitti movement as we knew it started around 1971 when one grafitti "tagger" was written up in the New York Times. He was from 183rd St. and his tag was "TAKI 183". His tag was scribbled all over the system with a marker pen as opposed with a spray can. After the Times article copycat taggers jumped on the bandwagon for their 15 minutes of fame and then it progressed into spray paint and murals.
Thank you New York Times.
Bill "Newkirk"
I highly doubt that the New York Times actually caused the graffiti epidemic. You're just finding something on which to lay the blame, when really it was a general collapse of the subway and the city in general. Not to mention society.
06/01/2000
Yeah but right after the TAKI 183 article that's when all sorts of tags started to show up. And the rest they say is history. What if there was no Times article?
Bill "Newkirk"
Not to disagree with anybody but you might have a point. The reason for taging is for braging rights,beeing seen and publicity. If TAKI 183 made the "New York Times", well lookout; all hell must have broken loose with the flood gates opening for copycats wannabees.
The system and city payed the consequences It looked like an out of control city ravaged by gangs.I could not imagine what taking the subway was like in the South Bronx at that time.
It sure looks better today!
You think those kids read the New York Times?
-Dave
I wouldn't bet on it.
Ha! Good point, you got me there! I'm such a clown!!!
No, but I do remember at least one TV news report, on Ch. 7 I think, about Taki and showing some of his handiwork in the stairways at Madison Square Garden and other Midtown locations. I don't know if that followed the story in the Times or not, but the way broadcast stations copycat what they read in the morning papers, probably. And while the kids may not have read the Times, they did watch TV.
See the vandalism of Taki 183 at:
http://members.xoom.com/nyrail/graffiti.html
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
Grafitti is as old as civilization. The Great Pyramid at Giza was tagged by the laborers who built it. "Kilroy was here" was a common tag seen everywhere American troops went in Europe during WW2. And I doubt anyone who'd think grafitti was cool would even read the New York Times.
The archiologists who excavated Pompeii discovered graffiti from the 1st century (79AD). It's probably as old as mankind.
Yup, the grafitti found at the Great Pyramid is 2000 years older than that. "Tagging" is not a modern invention.
Are we going to start with our biased hang ups again here? I find it extremely offensive when Chris R16 said that he "doubted that anyone who thought that graffiti was cool would even read the NY Times". Guess again, Chris. Where do you base these absurd conclusions on? You seem to think that just because someone respects graffiti as an artform means they are uneducated, illiterate, or of low moral character. I think you need to see past your prejudices and think for half a second before saying something like that.
I for one am a fan of graffiti as an artform. I use graffiti and photographs of graffiti murals in my own art. Yes, there IS a difference between artistic graffiti and the random scrawls across apartment walls with expletives. I think graffti is something you can't truly understand unless you are from the ghetto or have some understanding on what it is like to be an urban youth.
I appreciate graffiti and I'm no ignoramus of low morals. Think before you speak.
Grafitti refers to the illegal "tagging" of public or private property. There is no such thing as "legal grafitti". Those who gain the permission of the property owner to paint "grafitti" on their buildings are not graffitti "artists". They are simply artists. I've seen a few of these sanctioned "murals" and they are definatly art, and quite beautiful.
Grafitti is not "art". It's a crime. Grafitti can never be "art" Never has, never will. Grafitti is an urban blight which needs to be destroyed everywhere. To call grafitti "art" is an insult to all artists everywhere.
[Grafitti is not "art". It's a crime. Grafitti can never be "art" Never has, never will.]
Then maybe graffiti art is not graffiti. Art is (according to the webster's dictionary) "the human expression of other objects by painting, drawing, scuplpture etc." I definately consider some of the more extraordinary pieces of subway "graffiti" art. The definition of art does not say anything about the legality of the surface painted and therefore does not rule out "graffiti".
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
Yes it does. Grafitti is the illegal desecration of public or private property. Even if it's asthetically pleasing, it's still not art, but a criminal act. If permission is obtained to paint "grafitti-STYLE art", then that's a different story.
I agree that some of the murals done on subway cars are quite artistic. However, it's still not art. If it was on a gigantic canvas, then it could be called art.
I think the one thing we are all in agreement with here is that some of the grafitti is quite artistic, and those who did some of these murals are quite talanted. We all seem to hate the scrawlings and tagging that most grafitti appears as. But no matter how artistic it appears to be, if it's on the side of a subway car, it's not art. It's a criminal act.
This is drifting into an intellectual tangent, but I feel
I should point out that in the modern sense, "art", as
defined by Daniel's citation, does not have to be aesthetic
and it certainly does not have to be in the medium of oil
on canvas.
In fact, there is a broad range of human activity that is now
considered "art", including "performance art". Did you know
that taking a dump on stage and throwing your excrement at the
audience is art? Bet ya didn't!
There are no objective measures of the degree of "art" that a
particular work has. That's the nature of the field.
Of course, "tagging" a subway car is a criminal act. That is very
easy to establish. Since a subway car or station is public
property, the public has a right to establish, through the
representative process of the legislature (whatever you may think
of it), that it does not want this particular type of property to
be used for "artistic" purposes. Those that violate these laws
are committing a crime, and the fact that some people find the
resulting work to be pleasing or not pleasing is not relevant.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.that's so funny Jeff! You made me belly laugh reading about throwing excrement to the audience. What a visual. I'm still laughing.
You 're right What is not yours is simply not yours. The moment you cross that line, the legal system (ya right!!) gets involved.
Again if you were to own the building and tag it all you want, there would be no legal discussion, only subjective discussion.
If you tag a building, park, train, highway; anything that does not belong to you, morally and legally you do not have the right. Furthurmore, public places belong to the tax payers, We end up paying the bill for removing the graffiti.Again we end up paying for the crime.
Ah life is fun!
I want to reiterate what someone said before: if it was not for third rail coverboards, there would have been less graffiti. Just look at what this punk was doing with the aid of ther coverboards!
-Daniel
LOL. Rubber soled sneakers would have been enough to protect the criminal. As long as he doesn't slip ...
Actually, he is pretty safe as long as both third rails are fed
from the same section and he stays away from metal-bearing
spray paint.
Good one! Where did you get this picture?
jeff--- if taking a dump on stage and throwing the excrement at the audience is performance art, then i guess we have quite a few performance artists who post at subtalk...
I'm about to enter the world of the performance artist. Coming to a stage near you, I will slowly disect an R68 piece by piece, while I berate the hideousness of wheel detectors, and the horror of the Triplex's early retirement.
Think I'll get an NEA endowment?
Well we can argue over the true definition of "art". My opinion is that defecating on stage and throwing it on a canvas is not "art", at least not to me. Others might think otherwise, and that's their opinion.
However, grafitti is crime, not art. Grafitti-style paintings can be called art.
This is more of a semantic battle here. Grafitti is the illegal marking or tagging of a public or private residence/object. It's an illegal act, not an expression of artistic talent. If a beautiful mural is put on a subway car, it's grafitti and illegal. If the exact same mural was put on the side of a building, with the blessing of the owner (or the artist's own building/car/other object), then it's art and worthy of being called that. It's the illegality that seperates grafitti and art.
Of course, the TA can commission murals to be placed on the side of boring silver subway cars. It can still be graffiti and it can still be art, and all legal.
More or less the point I was making: aesthetics do not make
a particular form of expression more or less "art"istic, in
the modern sense. Whether or not grafiti is art is a moot
discussion; it can be art and an illegal act at the same time.
The fact that one finds a particular grafito visually pleasing
does not ameliorate the aspect of vandalism.
Art as crime? What has society come to to actually make this statement ...
Bingo. You nailed the head in the coffin with that one. If we dissect this discussion in 3 sub-parts 1.GRAFFITI, 2.ART 3.CRIME.
Dictionary Def: GRAFFITI; Scribblings or drawings made on walls
in public places.
ART; Skill applied to design,representation, or
imaginative creation.
CRIME;Act( grave offense) punishable by law.
I love graffiti and there is no doubt according to the dictionary's definition that we saw "ART" throughout the 70's on whole trains.But before beeing art, it was a crime.
If I were to come and paint a mural on your couch without your approval,it would be spectacular "ART' yet you would call the cops stating a crime was in beeing commited.
If these artists back then and today would rent out billboards along highways, pay for them and perform their art beautifully so we can all see it,then we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
Yes, yes, yes.....somebody finally gets it.
And it's not you.
Nothing in the definition of graffiti says it must be illegal.
But it is. The law states that you cannot deface a publicly owned piece of property without expressed permission. If grafitti was allowed by law to exist on subway cars, then your point would make sense. I can't think of a single incident where the MTA gave permission to an individual to paint a mural on a subway car. Therefore, it's ALL illegal.
Graffiti is not all illegal. Every exisiting instance of it is illegal, that doesn't make all possible graffiti illegal. What about those artworks commissioned by the TA in stations? I can't think of any that are painted, but the method is not important.
Are advertisements illegal? Those are drawings.
bingo!This isn't brain surgery.
Sorry, but you didn't buy a bingo card.
There IS legal graffiti.
When the owner and operator of the space that is beeing tagged gives permission,it is not considered illegal or a crime.
That beeing said and done, I will come over to your father's house and paint a beautifull mural on his car. It will be the most breath taking mural you will ever see. I will put my blood sweat and tears in it. There will be different colours, edges to highlight the depth of the image and your father will fall in love with it because it is art, it is not illegal or a crime and he knows that.
I must admitt, I will have to do it late at night so that no one catches me but don't worry my friend I will manage to finish it by morning so he can see it first thing, drive to work with it and have everybody on the block say "Hey there goes GOOBBER with the mural car".
Your father will not call the cops, because no crime has been commited.This is "Art" on a private or public place it makes no difference, it is not graffiti, this is "ART" and it is all legal according to some people!!!!
I am not talking about that which is illegal and that which is not. I was merely fighting over the definition of the word graffiti. It is not necessarily illegal. The definition of graffiti does not make it illegal.
I do not condone illegal tagging. That is not all that graffiti is. If a store owner had a blank wall on his store and decided to have it decorated by local youth in the graffiti style, it would be both legal and graffiti.
And next time, don't waste your time posting garbage that proves nothing to me. I never said I believe in the rights of urban youth to draw on anything they please, in fact, dumb liberals who condone this are complete trash. In the March 8 edition of the New York Times, there was a letter by Alex Rowe (complete bozo) condoning graffiti. I wrote a letter in response to it (a different letter was chosen, I think it was better than my letter anyway, I put too much liberal bashing in the second paragraph). And of course I hope nothing more than to have people like this blinded by a can of spraypaint before they can make it on to the political scene and make everyone's life a living hell.
If you want to read that letter that didn't make it E-mail me.
If you want to read that letter by Mr. Rowe, the article to which it was a response, and the letter in response to that, I have all of this and can e-mail it to you.
If you are a New York Public Library cardholder, then you may visit nypl.org, select electronic resources, then ProQuest Direct. Search for "fickle aesthetes."
"Search for 'fickle aesthetes.'"
ROTFLMAO!!! That was about the best deadpan funny lines I've heard for some time now! Picture it being said by Ben Stein ("ClearEyes. Wow."), and you'll see what I mean.
Neither does the definition of graffiti make it necessarily illegal.
But grafitti is illegal. There is no legal way someone can paint a mural on a subway car. That's a crime. Grafitti-style art is another thing altogether. You're confusing the two.
Haven't you ever heard of public art commissions?
Do you call those mosaics in stations like "Oculus" graffiti? Those are drawings (or something like that) on public surfaces.
Just like other words, the meaning of "graffiti" has evolved. I used to mean just random scrawls on the all but no it is a style of art. A lot of the ILLEGAL graffiti done in the 1970s and 1980s was quite amusing. You can not tell me that Campbell's Soup decorated train was not at all funny. I mean, I understand your principle there. It is someone else's property and that it's not right to do that without permission, but these guys that tagged the trains illegally as teenagers are now successful businessmen in some cases. Rich suburban White kids want to emulate these guys and do what they did.
No, the term grafitti can only be used to describe the illegal vandalizing of a public or private object. Authorized grafitti-STYLE art is another thing altogether.
Once again, your clouded vision refuses to accept that ACTUAL GRAFFITI can be legal and art.
What is graffiti-style? is it something that looks like graffiti? Does that not make it graffiti then?
The technical definition of murder does not imply illegality. All it implies is the taking of a life not your own. The point was that grafitti IS illegal, unless you have the permission to paint it. Who gave permission to these morons to paint their stuff on subway cars? No one.
Can any grafitti "artist" go to court and legally make the claim that tagging something without permission is "art" and not a crime? Legal "grafitti" IS art. No subway "grafitti" is legal. It's vandalism.
That was not the point I was trying to make. You said that ALL GRAFFITI under any circumstances that can arise is illegal. You said nothing about only that graffiti which exists now. You even specifically mentioned that graffiti-STYLE art can be commissioned, and that all legal paintings are automatically not graffiti.
You also mentioned murals on buildings not being graffiti when they are done with the permission of the owner. You didn't limit yourself to the subway.
Well they're not. Murals on the side of a building are on pivate property, and according to Webster's dctioary, the definition of grafitti is drawings on public property. Technically, the definition you posted torpedoes your own arguments. You seem to want to argue the technical definitions of words, whereas I want to argue the reality of what a word means today.
chris said: i want to argue the reality of what the word means today...
i disagree with that stance... i think the quality of my posts have shown that i try hard not to let reality enter into my thoughts... it is much too disturbing...
chris...please try to keep arguments here on the normal level of inspired fantasy :-)
Question;
The cave drawings in Spain, Art or Graffiti?
Was it legal then? Who was the owner? Who gave permission? Who determined it to be "Art"? Have all things necessary to make it art been satisfied. If not it is Graffiti , illegal and must be destroyed forewith.
What do you do? There are those of us who look upon certain styles of subway cars from an industrial art point of veiw. The Atlantic Ave Elavated structure and the East NY Junction as art. To othres its an eyesore or blight on the community. Crime is crime even if it please some eyes.
In a sociaty we have rules and mores' With the impending doom of the red cars, a contest should be commissioned, submit plans , create art, fullsize and small sized , legally get a face for each style and handle. Let the public now who did what . Who has talent and who does not. Then scrape the cars of none talented entrants.
Few things are as aesthetically pleasing to my eyes as the sight of a vintage elevated station with its original lamps and furnishings intact; i.e. the Atlantic Avenue and Sutter Avenue elevated stations on the "L", and the Broadway Junction station up until just recently.
wayne
Are you saying they are renovation the two?
It defines it as a public surface, which doesn't mean something owned by the government.
You also argued that any legally-commission graffiti-style art is automatically not graffiti and becomes graffiti-STYLE. That is what I am arguing. If you had only talked about how graffiti is bad, then there would be no response from me as I wouldn't even have thought of legal graffiti until you decided to say that legal drawing is automatically not graffiti.
Main Entry: 1pub·lic
Pronunciation: 'p&-blik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English publique, from Middle French, from Latin publicus; akin to Latin populus the people
Date: 14th century
1 a : exposed to general view : OPEN b : WELL-KNOWN, PROMINENT c : PERCEPTIBLE, MATERIAL
2 a : of, relating to, or affecting all the people or the whole area of a nation or state b : of or relating to a government c : of, relating to, or being in the service of the community or nation
3 a : of or relating to people in general : UNIVERSAL b : GENERAL, POPULAR
4 : of or relating to business or community interests as opposed to private affairs : SOCIAL
5 : devoted to the general or national welfare : HUMANITARIAN
6 a : accessible to or shared by all members of the community b : capitalized in shares that can be freely traded on the open market -- often used with go
- pub·lic·ness noun
speaking of graffiti, it is making a comeback in a large way. the end car of a bright liner on a southbound #1 was vandalized with permanent markers and paint markers on the seats and dors. it was horrible. mta better step up their fight a little.
Is there one line today that is hit more than others and which one would that be?
If all train yards have been fenced in since the MTA has cracked down on graffiti vandals, how in hell do these people get to tag the cars?
The fences should be electrified.
Electrification of the fences would be way too expensive and impractical. Besides the fact that yard access is not culprit of graffiti, and the current fences are doing their job well, there is no real reason to electrify fences. Also, since fences run along sidewalks of the street, people accidentally knocking into it would be shouck and the MTA would have a ton of lawsuits against them. I say if the MTA wants to meke the fences better, reinstate the rabid attack dogs.
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
They don't have to have rabies. A few Rottweilers, Dobermans, pit bulls, etc. will do.:-)
The cars are tagged on the inside and were probably done in the early morning or late at night when no one else is in the car. Same goes for the scratchiti. The fences around the yards only protect against big whole-car murals done with spray paint. A tag done with marker on the inside of a car takes less than a minute.
-Daniel
New York Area Railroads
Have any of us seen graffiti vandals in action tagging a car? If so what do you do?
Well, you could do what this wrestling coach did in Denver. He caught a couple of guys red-handed and gave them a taste of their own medicine; i. e., he sprayed their faces with their own paint. Bad idea - HE got arrested.
Seriously, you should probably inform a transit employee (T/O, conductor, cop) if you can. I wouldn't try to be a hero.
Can somebody describe to me generally what the city-scape is along the El line that runs from Brooklyn to Jamaica Avenue and the Archer Avenue tunnel? There was a posting here this week claiming that the scene is largely unchanged from the opening of the El 100 years ago. I find that image intriguing. Thanks.
From Marcy Ave to Bway Junction, most of what you'll see are row houses. Also some large vacant lots with ruins from the 1977 NYC Blackout Riots. Closed movie theatres or thjeir remains. Stations between Cypress Hills & Bway Junction contain the steelwork in the stationc canopies from many years ago (though you could see that on the Brighton Line south of Ave H and the Canarsie Line south of Atlantic Ave, too). El structure itself dates back that far, though you'd have to get off the train and walk underneath it to see it. Stretch east of Cypress Hills to Archer Ave tunnel portal is lined with stores and is a busy shopping area.
--Mark
Thanks for the tour description. What a pity about the scars from the 1977 riots. It is obvious to anyone in urban government that there is nothing harder to heal than the damage done by rioting. Chicago is still terribly scarred in many places from the 1968 riots, and talking businesses into investing in the now-moribund neighborhoods is still a very tough sell.
Do you think that this trip is interesting? I am planning to take it next time I am in NYC.
Yes, as the J line is virtually all elevated and represents a great deal of BMT history. You should get off at Myrtle Ave to see the remains of the El that ran south of that point to the Brooklyn Bridge, and again at Bway/East New York for a look at the steelwork that makes up Broadway Junction and the East New York yard. Over the next few years, that complex, as well as Atlantic Ave, is due to be "simplified" and much of it will be gone.
You could give yourself some variety by making the return trip via the E train (all R-32s).
--Mark
Absolutely yes. The only really depressing part of the J is between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway; some places better than others but east of Eastern Parkway mostly pretty good. On your way back from Jamaica get off at Eastern Parkway and ride the L train to Rockaway Parkway. In the Bronx, even though the South Bronx was bad it looks pretty good now... take the #2 train all the way up to 24l-White Plains. It's all elevated past l49th &3rd. But the J is still the longest el. The E train is all subway but daytime has some neat express running.
Well I did get to ride the J from Sutphin Blvd to Broad street last week. The archer ave tunnel looks just like the one used for the E on the upper level. Once on the EL you pass over Woodhaven, which does look old, but delapidated. It was a long El run, perhaps one of the longest I've ever been on. The train was an R42 which was pretty quick and had a nice front window. The J "El" runs through mostly delapidated areas, with lots of closed stores and burnt out buildings.
It was kind of depressing, but alot of stations had people in them, and there is more people on the street as you get closer to the Williamsburg bridge. The ride over the bridge was nice, I like the center tracks design vs. the outer tracks (MannyB). The ride was somewhat smoother (and quicker) than over the Manhattan bridge, and I like being in the middle of the roadway before we entered the tunnel.
Several things to note is, the LIRR lower Montauk line, which you pass over after 121st. Also is the abandoned Rockaway branch (look for the electrical towers)after 104th street, the ROW is in very bad shape, with lots of weed coverage. Also is the S curve around Cypress and Crescent, trains are slow through this area with all GT's set to red.
It was an interesting trip, even though there are alot of run down areas you pass through.
Excuse me! Woodhaven is NOT delapidated. Perhaps East New York and Bushwick are, but not Woodhaven.
I take it you're from Woodhaven - I have some friends there; it is NOT dilapidated, but rather it has acquired the fine patina of age. It's an old but well-kept neighborhood.
Wayne
Many of my Saturday schoolmates were from Woodhaven as well as Richmond Hill. A lot of Lithuanians lived there at one time; some are still there. There's a Lithuanian physician on Forest Parkway, a block or so from the el.
He's retired, and now an Indian/Pakastanian doctor runs his practice. Sorta fits the changing face of the neighborhood I call home.
BTW, that's just a mere 3 blocks from my house ...
BTW, his name was Juozas Dicpinigaitis. My father knew him very well. He and his wife had three sons, one of whom drowned back in 1973. The other two followed in his footsteps and are doctors today. We visitd them on several occasions (I would shoot pool with their youngest son; he was pretty good), and every time a train would rumble past, I would get the urge to go for a ride.
Well I couldn't get the best view from the El, but compared to other areas along the J it Woodhaven was the best of them. There were alot of old buildings though.
Nothing wrong with old buildings if they're taken care of. I lived in Cypress Hills l968-77 and all was well (that's the Brooklyn side of Woodhaven. ) Was pleased to see on my recent visit that That area and Woodhaven are still in good shape. The oldest house I had was built in l900 or so, my present house l9l8.. but this was bad.. it's coming along nicely. Look at European cities, I was in many from Scandinavia to Spain. For the most part the old cities are beautiful.
I was thinking about the "RJ" line that ran between 1967-1968 I was wondering why they eliminated that line so quick? And also about the old Rush hour "R" that went to Chambers Street,I heard that people who got on that train said that majority of the old rush hour "R" trains terminated at Metropolitan Avenue Queens why did they did that and thats weird that they never showed that on the maps because the maps said Chambers on the last stop of "R" line so does anybody know why it went to Metropolitan. And I also heard that they don't allow R44-46's on the Nassau Street line so the "R" went through the Nassau Street line they were R44-46's so whats wrong running R44-46 on Nassau line? if you know right to me
R-44/46/68 can run on Nassau st, just not the el. Since no line goes on nassau st. but not the el, they don't use R-44/46/68s. The Rs that went to Metropolitan were 60' cars. Also, even if they could, they wouldn't since there aren't enough cars to go around for the lines that can (C, E, Q).
The RJ was probably altered when it was noticed that these trains ran basically empty north of Chambers St.
The Nassau St. R did indeed often go to Metropolitan Ave, with a few going to Eastern Pkwy. These trains needed to lay up somwhere, and the yards at Fresh Pond and ENY served this purpose.
All R trains were equipped with the same rolling stock that the J and M used, because the cars were based out of the ENY yard, unlike the Broadway/Astoria RR/R line, which had it's cars based in Coney Island.
This line was killed on 11/19/87 because it was considered redundant, duplicaing the M line, and to ease ovrcrowding on he 4th Ave. corridor.
No it was not exactly "killed". It was replaced with Chambers St.-bound RR trains. About every third RR went to Chambers rather than along Broadway. They realized running a full long line (RJ) for what was basically about 4 or 5 special one-direction trains was wasteful and just confused people with one extra letter name (RJ). The M also ran only from Metropolitan Avenue to Chambers St. The M eventually became the Myrtle-Brighton Local, the J & JJ went only to Broad St. (They realized that the M ran over the Williamsburg Bridge only when the QJ was running, so service would seem more logical if the J/JJ ran the same route 24/7, and the M ran either to B'way-Myrtle or to Coney Island. More recently the M starting going down the West End line when the Q was resuscitated.
Pre-1967 Trivia: The M train was a not-on-the-map Brighton Express to Chambers St via Tunnel. Every third Brighton Express was the M, the other two were Q trains to 57 St.-7th Avenue. Before there were letters and fluorescent lights on the trains (before 1961) the Brighton express train to Broadway was always a trio of Triplexes; the Brighton express train to Chambers St. was always 8 standards.
Remember those "Know Trains at a Glance" placards which were displayed on BMT Southern Division stations before Chrystie St? They did feature an M marking with a "Nassau St. Express" designation.
How were those trains of BMT standards marked?
I assume they had marker lights ...
More than likely, yes. I meant the roll signs on the sides. One of the routes signs was probably set to "Special" while the other one said "Via tunnel then via bridge", since IIRC AM specials on the Brighton line entered Manhattan via tunnel, then deadheaded over the Manhattan Bridge back to Brooklyn. Not all route curtains had the latter sign, mine doesn't. It has separate "Via Tunnel" and "Via Bridge" signs, though.
It didn't say special. It said
Chambers St.
Brighton Beach
(maybe Nassau Loop)
Once it got to Chambers St., I am pretty sure that was the end of the ride.
The M Brighton Express, 1965 until Chrystie Street, was made up of R32s. It signs said:
Chambers St
Coney Island
M / Nassau Street Express
It originated from Coney Island, not Brighton Beach, and made local stops at Gravesend Neck Road and Avenue U before switching to the express tracks. I assume the reverse was true during the evening rush.
Well, the BMT standards did have "via Nassau Loop" signs in their route curtains, so "Express" and "Via Nassau Loop" would make sense. The upper sign had the route while the lower sign gave the destination, and there were two sets of signs per car side, on either side of the center doors. I only rode on them on the Canarsie, and so all of the upper signs were set to "14th St. L'c'l".
I know it wasn't killed, hence the use of the word altered. It was "killed" in 1987, though. The RJ, like the QJ, NX and KK routes, were ill concieved and eventually died or were changed.
There are also other reasons why R44s/R46s do not run on the Broad Street cut. First and most obvious is the fact that the all stations on the J and M lines can only accommodate 8 60'subway cars. R44s/R46s generally run in 8 75' subway car units, which means that a regular train would overhang these stations (there would be cars outside of the station).
Also, R44s and R46s are not allowed to cross the Williamsburg Bridge. Because of the wide bodies of those equipment, they would bang into each other coming from opposite directions because there is little, if any, clearance between trains on the bridge. This is why only R40s and R42s (although R32s and R38s would also qualify) are used on the J and M lines.
The bodies are the same width. It's the lengths that are different. The problems are caused by the greater resulting overhangs on the curves.
This isn't true. The width of an R44/46/68 is the same as that of a R32/38/40/42. They aren't banned from the bridge, and a few have even crossed it. NYCTransit, AKA BMT Lines (MIA) posted pictures of a brand new R46 running over it in 1976.
You're correct about the station length. Only 6 car trains could run on the Eastern Division, and except for the few special G trains, this is impossible with most of the 75' cars being linked into 4 car sets.
The reason that R-44/46/68's don't run across the Williamsburg bridge is because the BMT eastern div. lines have curves that are too sharp for trains that length. So it would be pointless to run trains over the bridge that wouldn't be able to go the whole length of a train line. This also holds true for the "L" line
I am reading from a copy of the MTA New York City Transit bulletin regarding the maximum number of subway cars allowed on transfers, and it states that:
R44/46 and R68/68A cars are restricted from operating in the Eastern Division and are prohibited from operating on or over the Williamsburg Bridge. When 75-foot subway cars are transferred it is imperative that these cars are not inadvertently routed/diverted to the Broad Street cut, "J" and "M" lines.
So, Jtrainloco, you are correct.
These trains can, and have, travelled over the Williamsburgh Bridge. It's the curves around Myrtle Ave and Crescent St which ban them from the NAssau St. line. There is clearance for the 75' cars to cross the bridge, perhaps just barely. They are the exact same width as the 60' cars.
When the 75' cars were first used, the entire rest of the BMT division required "surgery" to make some of the curves in the tunnels have clearance for them. They used a 60' train with flexible rods sticking out of them. If they touched the wall, current would flow into some device that recorded those locations. The Jamaica Avenue El has trouble with them because the wheels are farther apart and need a wider turning radius than is available on the Crescent and Myrtle sections.
Yes, I believe an R1 was "split" in half, and an extra 15' section welded in between the two parts and un through the entire system. The curve north of Cortland St. on the N/R line was one of those areas requiring surgery, IIRC.
Per official bulletin: The service change which was to begin on 5/30/2000 has been postponed " indefinitely"
This means that the 2 will stop at all stations at all times, the diamond 5 will continue to run express in peak direction and the circle 5 will continue to run local.
I dunno if anybody was on the west side IRT on Friday afternoon, but while I was riding the 1 downtown, at 96 Street, the announcer blurted out - "DUE TO A POWER OUTAGE, THIS TRAIN WILL BE BYPASSING 86 STREET." After 96th was passed, you see the abandoned 91 street station on the side, then when 86 was passed, it seemd as if there was no difference between 91st & 86th, with the exception that 91st has graffiti all over it. But at any rate, does anybody who lives on the upper west side, or anybody around the area know what happened?
A contractor digging in the street above the station, struck a Con Ed. feeder cable and disrupted AC power to the station. I do not have the name of the contractor or if his digging equipment melted.
Considering the steps that are supposed to be taken to avoid such accidents, I wonder how they managed it.
....this idiot runs his small car right in front of the BLUE LINE light rail right here in downtown Los Angeles
yesterday ..!! In spite of well posted danger signs and signals even snapshot cameras for red light runners....
Anyway his car had to be ""CUT OUT" with the """jaws of life"" cutters and this man lived without serious injury !!
How do you sandwich your car under a light rail system ( like you now have in new jersey ) and live ??
Man !!!! this guy was lucky !!!!
Please pardon my non-transit related statement.
Too many Americans, including myself see Memorial Day as a three-day weekend, a barbecue with friends and the start of summer activities. But for others, it is a day of remembrance for the friends and loved ones that have died in American conflicts throughout history. These people cannot pass the national holiday without a tear for those who have gave their lives in the name of freedom.
The inscription in the Korean war memorial in DC states: Freedom is not free. Those who have never laid their lives on the line can say this is a clever and powerful phrase. But no one except the brave American servicemen who have lived and died in Hell on Earth can really understand and appreciate the meaning of these four words.
It is for those people who I would like to take this opportunity to salute. They have made the ultimate sacrifice in the name of freedom and the rights of human beings throughout the world.
To all the veterans of wars past and all the men who have passed, God bless you and your effort to defend the American ideals of freedom and equality.
Godspeed to you
-Daniel C. Boyar
Well said, Daniel - very well said.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I took my 'lil one to Adventureland on rt 110 today and going back I decided to take New Highway to Conklin. (which is really Hempstead Tnpk) Just north of the Ronkonkoma Line RR crossing I noticed a small freight yard on the side of the road. It was not fenced in, the offices were closed and there were no security guards so me and Arthur stopped and nosily poked around. There were a bunch of freight cars on one track and what looked to be work trains on another. Does anyone know anything about that yard. Is it used often? I also noticed on the office (which was a trailer) the sign said Long Island Rail Road and not NY & Atlantic. Does the LIRR still run some freight or do they just ow the yard?
[I took my 'lil one to Adventureland on rt 110 today and going back I decided to take New Highway to Conklin. (which is really Hempstead Tnpk) Just north of the Ronkonkoma Line RR crossing I noticed a small freight yard on the side of the road. It was not fenced in, the offices were closed and there were no security guards so me and Arthur stopped and nosily poked around. There were a bunch of freight cars on one track and what looked to be work trains on another. Does anyone
know anything about that yard. Is it used often? I also noticed on the office (which was a trailer) the sign said Long Island Rail Road and not NY & Atlantic. Does the LIRR still run some freight or do they just ow the yard?]
Some years back, the LIRR tried to run some intermodal service at the yard - the crane is still there. It failed pretty quickly, from what I understand, and since then the yard is used mostly for work trains and such. From time to time there are what look like a few regular freight cars.
Although I've been on 110 a number of times, especially going to Adventureland or that great Brazilian restaurant next to it, Greenfields, I've never really used New Highway and really didn't know about the yard. There were about 8 or 9 freight cars there and the work train on the next track was probably the crane you were talking about. I thought the wye leading to both directions of the Ronkonkoma Line was very interesting especially how one track of the wye is just north of the RR crossing but outside of the gates. However Arthur was more interested in the train inside Adventureland.
05/29/2000
[However Arthur was more interested in the train inside Adventureland]
I guess you can say in a way narrow gauge runs on Long Island albiet an amusement ride at that!
BTW - Next time you're in the area, check out the R-21/22 protruding out of the bagel shop on Conklin Street. It's located west on Conklin from Rte.110 a few blocks on your right. I'm not kidding!!
Bill "Newkirk"
It is an R22 - the straps are triangular. But I could not find any trace of the unit number; it had been sanded off.
wayne
Geez. I thought Greenfield's out here in California was unique.
They're actually the best of the Brazilian restaurants. Now if only someone could come up with a good Peruvian place -- the one that was decent folded and nobody else comes close.
There are two others that I know about. One off Linden Place in Flushing and one on Northern Blvd. in Corona. I've been anxious to try one but my wife hates leaving suburbia. Glad to know that there is one out here.
Although I've been on 110 a number of times,
especially going to Adventureland or that great
Brazilian restaurant next to it, Greenfields, I've
never really used New Highway and really didn't know
about the yard. There were about 8 or 9 freight
cars there and the work train on the next track was
probably the crane you were talking about. I
thought the wye leading to both directions of the
Ronkonkoma Line was very interesting especially how
one track of the wye is just north of the RR
crossing but outside of the gates. However Arthur
was more interested in the train inside
Adventureland.
The yard was the first experiment with intermodal freight on the LIRR.
The 10 bogies are sitting on a siding just east of Hicksville. The major problem is/was height restrictions on the main line. NY & A should have better success as those problems are addressed.
On some videos I recently bought from Railroad Video Enterprises, there is some footage shot at that location with a narration noteation that the yard is presenrly used by New York & Atlantic. There were a couple diesels shown in the yard in the video; one was in NY&A colors and the other was still in LIRR colors.
OK, the shots are in! Here is R32 (I think) #4685 in the SBK interchange yard getting the asbestos removed by a private contractor.
This was taken two weeks ago.
-Daniel
She's an R42. And the picture reveals the secret of her demise: Look! She must have hit a pillar or curtain wall just behind her #6 door, and her frame must be bent!
Her mate, #4684, is currently coupled to #4727.
wayne
......question.....can I load pictures like that inside the mesage board like you did ??
I have a older I mac -gs type computer ..... & did you load that picture from your hard drive & or website ??..
Didn't we cover this?
-Dave
You did, but the Man with NO Brain promptly forgot it. Or never recognized it the first time
Blue doors .... pre-GOH, no doubt ....
--Mark
Yes, the accident happened in the early 1980s from what I heard.
wayne
Looks like an asbestos job...
-Hank (Arden Ave and Arthur Kill Rd...Almost home)
I saw this mural on thursday at the corner of 52nd street and fourth avenue in Brooklyn. I think it looks kinda cool. Especially the subway car and segment of west Brooklyn map replicated on the bottom.
-Daniel
VERY well done! Murals like that certainly are NOT graffitti - they qualify as urban art. I wonder if that was painted with the blessing of the building owner. There's another huge mural (just as nicely done) visible from the #7 train between 45 Road and where it goes underground at Hunters Point Avenue; also on the sides of a building.
wayne
I've seen that building on 45th road. The artists call it the "Phun Phactory" and is completely covered in graffiti murals. It changes about every two weeks. Sometimes they have subway-themed murals.
I walked down that street once and I saw the artists have whole storeroom for their equipment includeing about 2000 cans of paint, ladders, lamps, and rollers for solid background colors.
-Daniel
I can just visualize an army of "Phun Phactory" artists descending on a fleet of defenseless Redbirds as they lie parked in cold storage at the nearby Sunnyside Yard...
On the other hand, their works are truly outstanding; as long as they remain fixed to their designated building and not to subway cars.
wayne
Well, the MTA does not use Sunnyside yard, and therefore no Redbirds are kept there. Sunnyside is used by Amtrak and NJ Transit only. Subway yard are locked down tighter than a Federal prison. Double, somethimes triple and quadruple fences intertwined with coils and coils of barbed-wire protect the Redbirs. Armed guards also partol perimeters of the yards (the attack dogs are gone). I think the Redbirds are safe enough. The only thing they have to worry about is retirement.
Also, graffiti artists who value their work will not deface subway cars because they know thier piece would be cleaned off by the time the car leaves the yard.
-Daniel
Yes, I know. Of course, I was just dreaming up a little macabre graffitti humour. There had been some talk of using Sunnyside Yard as a storage area for some of the Redbirds but I believe they abandoned this idea. Very unusual for a train to be seen in service with tags on it these days (DID see #4918-4919 on the "J" with some scribbling on it but not a mural).
I DO think they may have painted that old LIRR MP-72 that's lying abandoned out there. . .
wayne
[I DO think they may have painted that old LIRR MP-72 that's lying abandoned out there]
This is not it, but this old coach has a little writing on it.
-Daniel
That's the one! Only thing, now that I look at it, it's not really an MP-72. And it appeared to have a bit more graffitti on it last I saw it (May 20).
wayne
Great picture Daniel.When and where was this taken? Is it still there and do you have any other pictures you can post?
I've sneaked into the Fresh Pond Yard many times as a teenager. I've never tagged a train, I was much more interested in checking out the trains and equipment.
I agree. I wouldn't even call this grafitti. Grafitti sub-culture glorifies "tagging", which is the illegal defacement of public and private property in an attempt to defy authority and create "juice" (a reputaton for being "bad" and "hard") for the artist/defacer.
As long as permission from the building owner was granted, I have absolutley no problem with this kind of urban painting.
I agree. Do any of these vandals get caught and what kind of fine does our legal system implement?
It is only art when the building owner gives his blessing. No matter how beautiful it looks, if it was painted without permission, it's mere vandalism and should be removed immediatley.
[It is only art when the building owner gives his blessing]
Actually, the artists are the building owners. They have a website too.
www.phunphactory.org
-Daniel
A few days ago, the gapfiller at 14st would not retract on the express tracks. As an R62 4 train left the station, sparks flew as the carbody scraped against the little wheel, and the wheel took a beating every time the front of the next car hit it. It retracted when the last car banged the wheel.
When will the gapfillers at 14st Union Square be replaced?
Why wasn't the GF replaced when the platforms were redone?
You know something's old when a never used portion of a station (Brooklyn Bridge) has the same technology as a busy transfer station.
Why do you think the southern end of Brooklyn Bridge is never used? The station was extended norhward in 1962 to allow the curved southern end to be closed.
Pigs, do you know whether the stairs and passages that are now at the N end of the BB station were installed at the same time?
When the IRT Brooklyn Bridge station was extended northward around 1962, the middle and north entrances were added. The long passage from the north entrance provided a second connection to the BMT Chambers St. station. Proior to the lengthening, the only way from Chambers St. station to Brooklyn Bridge station was a passageway from the south end of Chambers St. station to what is now the south entrance to Brooklyn Bridge station. (The new middle entrance to Brooklyn Bridge station is at the south end of Chambers St. station.)
Also, prior to the extension, local trains at Brooklyn Bridge could not open more than 5 cars. As the #6 ran 8-car trains in those days (early 1960s), only the front four opened. The northbound local platforms at Canal, Spring, Bleeker, and Astor were extended at the same time. Before 1962 or so, the rear cars of the #6 didn't open until 14th St.
-- Ed Sachs
That whole lengthening thing still needs to be done on those 3 line stations (145 st.) If they lengthen that station, then 3 trains could have 10 cars, instead of the 9 they currently have.
Also, after the lengthening of those platforms (Brooklyn Bridge) there were 2 local side platforms closed, as well as the Worth St. Station.
There's no room for it. To the south is the junction with the 2, and to the north the tracks turn sharply westward and begins fanning out for the yard and the terminal.
145 is close enough to 148, it should be closed. If it was in a white neighborhood, it would have been.
Watch out. The PC police are goingto get you.
Watch out. The PC police are going to get you.
That platform has no relation to the length of 3 trains. The problem is the length of the yard tracks at 148st. If they kept 10-car trains in that yard, they would block the throat.
-Hank
That is especially true, since only the first 5 cars open their doors at 145 St.
Wasn't Worth St. also lengthened before it was closed?
The southbound platform at Worth St. was lengthened when all of the southbound platforms between 14th St. and Brooklyn Bridge and plaforms on both sides at 23rd, 28th, and 33rd were lengthened. I believe that this was in the late 40s, shortly after WW II (although it may have been early 50s). Some platform lengthening also occurred at 14th St. station at the same time, eliminating the need for gap fillers at the north end of the northbound platform (express side only, local trains were short and didn't pull up that far). At this time, 18th St. station was closed.
The northbound platforms at Canal, Spring, Bleeker and Astor were lengthened around 1962, at the same time that Brooklyn Bridge station platforms were extended northward, the north exit was built, and Worth St was closed.
Prior to this work, the local tracks at Brooklyn Bridge could only accommodate 5 cars. The #6 line ran only 5 car trains until the early 50s,when they were expanded to 8 cars. Prior to 1962, the last 4 cars didn't open northbound until you got to 14th St, and southbound passengers had to walk forward to the first four cars to exit at Brooklyn Bridge (much as at South Ferry today). The #6 line went to 10 car trains around 1963 or 64.
-- Ed Sachs
From what I understand, the 6 was still running 5-car trains when the R-17s first arrived. At least the first 6 train to operate over the rebuilt trackbed at Astor Place after the 1956 Wanamaker's Washout was a 5-car train.
Did conductors make announcements about only the front section of the train opening up? My aunt says she went around the South Ferry loop several times in 1959 while trying to get off, and finally tracked down a conductor who explained she had to be in the front part of the train. She says she doesn't remember hearing any announcements, nor the vintage of the equipment. I said that had they been Lo-Vs, there wouldn't have been any announcements.
... was the 18th street subway lengthened? Or was it closed rather than lengthened??
The 18th Street station on the Lexington Ave. line was closed when 14th St. was Lengthened.
18TH STREET STATION
Peace,
ANDEE
18th St. was never lengthened.
-- Ed Sachs
Not to mention, the northbound extension of that platform required the partial demolition of one of the wall platforms at Chambers. If you look close at the northbound tunnel, you can still see some of the tilework from the BMT station on the other side of the wall!
-Hank (currently wireless from exit 16w on the NJTP)
The gap fillers at 14th street were cited as one of the 3 major hinderences to increasing service on the #4 line. Signal maintainers man them 24/7. Because of them, the idea of remodeling the 14th Street Station, shifting the platforms 200' north, is again being considered. Replacing the gap fillers is not considered feasible considering the new goals of the NYCT.
Replacing the gap fillers is not considered feasible considering the new goals of the NYCT.
What might these "goals" be?
(What might these "goals" be)?
Just a guess -- cover costs, and pay for interest on the massive debt, through productivity improvments.
Not a bad goal, MTA-wide, but it will apparently be used to cover increasing deficits on the commuter railroads and the further diversion of transporation money to other things. That's why "productivity" is a bad word to public service recipients -- sometimes it's just a eupehnism for cutting services that are not used by the wealthy, but even if it is real, the customers seldom see the advantages in government agencies. That's because government agencies, unlike the private sector, are monopolies.
one way to increase productivity and reduce costs is to reduce the # of token booths. Now that MVM are here many stations could do without all those token booth clerks. The first booths should be removed from stations with multiple fare control areas. One example is Wall street on the 2,3. The chase center fare control booth could be removed without a major hassel to riders. Although elimination of all token booths is not practical, most booths are not needed. I have not used one in nearly 6 months.
The booths keep the morons who can't read directions away from the MVMs. They also keep MVM lines short. However, I can think of 2 stations with extra booths that are unneeded:
71/Continental at 70th Rd., as well as the token booth that is about 100 feet from the 24 hour one.
63rd Drive, 64th ave entrance. There's only one clerk, and its open only during the morning rush. The MVM right next to it is used more frequently.
Booths also should always remain in every station, since I would never make a transaction >$40 in the machine (what if the card never came out?).
That's what credit cards are for.
Why not? I trust the technology more than I trust the clerk to get the card right.
-Hank
I think that in order to reduce the token booths, you need to have another place for a person to person transaction. But Metrocards are sold in stores. In cavernous IND stations, one solution would be to lease out space to stores accessed outside fare control that would also sell Metrocards.
In Windsor Terrace, a store around the corner from the station sells Metrocards. Stores are also more convenient for bus riders than stations -- especially for those who ride the buses because they have trouble making the subway stairs.
At 15th or Fort Hamilton?
Ever use an LIRR or MNRR MVM? Three times on the LIRR, and once on the MNRR, I have gotten blank tickets or air out of the machine. I'd hate to buy a monthly ticket and end up with a blank piece of paper. The refund people never send the money, unless you use the phone. I'm worried that the MVMs will run out of cards and not bother to turn to OUT OF SERVICE.
They would do so automatically.
I would trust the machine more than a person. Most things are done by the machine anyway, all they have to do is count the money, which a machine does better anyway.
05/31/2000
[. I'm worried that the MVMs will run out of cards and not bother to turn to OUT OF SERVICE.]
They already do that. I've encountered a couple of MVM's that may have had their supply of Metrocards depleted. On the screen there is a circle with a slash denoting no Metrocards being sold. Fail safe mode I guess.
Bill "Newkirk"
The marquee on top would usually indicate the problem. You should still be able to buy SingleRide tickets (different kind of card) and should still be able to refill, and trade in cards to put on old card.
How can you compare MVMs to LIRR VM's? Those things are primitive!!!
[Booths also should always remain in every station, since I would never make a transaction >$40 in the machine (what if the card never came out?).]
If the machines have been properly designed, they use a sensor to make sure a card has come out before charging you (that's the way cash machines work--if for some reason they don't dispense enough money, it's detected and you don't get charged). You could always get an unreadable card, but again, if they're nicely designed they check that the card can be read with a second head when they write it.
But even if they screw up occasionally, you're paying much more for the salaries of token clerks than an occasional loss would cost you. It ain't worth it.
You can always use the intercom to communicate with a person.
Failed transactions (like a cash jam) print a receipt for mailing for a refund. It does work.
[Failed transactions (like a cash jam) print a receipt for mailing for a refund. It does work.]
That's a good idea.
but in the meantime you can come to us and buy a card or token to get into the system!
If all of the machines in a station are broken-free rides.
They do it on busses. I don't know what they do if Metrocard acceptance doesn't work, but I sure as hell would not pay with a token and not get a transfer or not be able to use my unlimited ride card, unless I could get a receipt to send to the TA for a refund.
It is up to the Station Agent. IF we can verify that the card was swiped at our station and did not let you in, you would usually be allowed entrance. All cardswhen swiped on our computer will show the last place used-- subway and a code num,ber or bus and a code number. I will not print code numbers but we know what the code for our station is (or sometimes several stations on our street such as 23/7, 23/8, 23/Lex, etc.) or our line such as 175/A line, 168/A line, etc.
If the code number matches our station we'd let you in if it shows usage within the last several minutes.
All turnstiles out-- that is why I think tokens will not go away. There would be no backup for no tokens. With tokens we have the non-revenue farebox(the black tall thing near the service gate))or even hand collect-both under supervision of police or station supervisor. In fact we are to hit the alarm if all turnstiles are out of order and to call in any malfunctioning turnstile every 8 hours until repaired. If we have half or more out we also call our immediate supervisor and our field office in addiiton to Station Command.
Usually, they will send a maintainer with 30-45 minutes.
Simple, if the turnstiles are broken, FREE RIDES. It works on busses. What do you do about transfers and unlimited rides?
As the system gets older and more and more folks use plastic this will become a big problem for the TA. At this depot 75 to 80% of the fares are now plastic. Token useage continues to drop.
I've made my prediction of what the TA REALY has in mind, it doesn't include the word service.
Disclaimer: Speaking for myself not the MTA, TA or nycDOT.
Mr t__:^)
Explain exactly how it will become a problem for the TA.
As the systems ages, just like folks, the parts wear & things break more often ... it's not like they have a MTBF for the turnstiles.
Well, they do probally have more then the "PM" thing planned. At this depot the mfg. is still professing that the boxes are so good that they'll never fail. The guys in the TA O/H shop sing the same song.
The second issue is that as time goes buy it will be harder & harder to find a Station Agent, e.g positions not filled, staff assigned to other duties, maybe NEAR the Token Booth or Station, etc. (this is not the TA stated policy, just what I think is going to end up happening, i.e. if no union person looses their job and maybe get more money for some expanded role service and in general avaliablity of staff in the station will decline). So when the Turnstile/station computer fails there will be no one there to know. Of course the person will be replaced with a minotor and a squawk box, so the function will be handled much more efficiently by remote control. Just think, you're getting mugged and are comforted by the noise you here comming from the speaker.
Disclaimer: This is a very pessimistic view NOT shared by anyone in authority at the MTA, TA or nycDOT.
Piggs, why did you get me started ????
Pig has one G.
I wanted to ask you so I know what you meant, I wasn't asking you to get into an argument, I've done enough of that. As for the mugger, like a station agent will get out of the booth and help.
Turnstiles should have an MDBF system: MSBF, Mean Swipes Between Failures.
[I wasn't asking you to get into an argument, I've done enough of that.]
Now you're going the other way, i.e. getting too sensitive ...
Seriously, I wasn't mad at you, just remaking that you found the ISSUE that makes me see RED, and I don't mean Red Birds.
Mr t__:^)
[Turnstiles should have an MDBF system: MSBF, Mean Swipes Between Failures.]
Hey eye like that one, and on the bus it will be MDBF (Mean DIP Between Failures) ... seriously they keep track of how busy one farebox is vs. another via "cyles", trouble is they havn't come up with a report for the maint. dept. yet, so the numbers keep building, and the mfg. says we SHOULD do maint. by cyles, but we CAN'T :-(
(never asked if TA has a "cycle/turns of the wheel" report for turstiles, i.e. MSBF !)
Mr t
06/03/2000
That happened to me last year on a Manhattan bus, when I boarded, the driver covered the Metrocard slot with his hand and said that the farebox was out of order. What else could he do?
Bill "Newkirk"
Put a garbage bag over it, or put a bent Metrocard in the slot.
Right! we also watch the machines which are usually nwear the booth (either live or CCTV). We also provide change for those insisting on buying a $3 card with a $20- the machine gives only $6 in change!
We also monitor station conditions and call for help if needed for police, fire, medical, water or smoke conditions,items on track, opening gates. We also allow access in the case of malfunctioning turnstiles if the customer signs a log. We are also needed to give out keys to workers ( transit or contractors) working in parts of the station.
OFten times the mere presence of a human on site will defuse a potential crisis.
I assure you, while some part-time booths may (and I emphasize **may**) be superflous, all stations **will** contuinue to have at least one 24 hour booth to serve our customers.
Wall St on the 2 and 3 got MVM's about a month ago......It is at the Pine St exit(middle of platform)
3TM
The New York Times Magazine recently did it's full magazine Suburbs special. The general tone of the articles was not totally anti-suburban, although obviously the letters that came later where (what did you expect? pro-suburban Times readers). I can't say as I disagree.
Anyway, one point being made was how suburban subdivisions and roads often take the names of things that no longer exist on the site. But, is it just the suburbs?
Where is the wall and where are the pines? Even the water on Water Street is no longer there.
But the canal is still there--the street periodically collapses into it.
Are you sure that's not Canal St?
Oh and how about the spring at Spring St?
They have already removed one at 86th St. on the Lex.
Stations without token booth clerks are very dangerous places, and the criminal element knows this very well. Court Square Station on the G line is a hive of sex for pay activity, and with fewer clerks around, there will be more such play places for the low lifes of the city.
At the risk of opening pandora's box once again, the NYCT is actively trying to increase service on the Lexington Avenue line. The gap fillers (moving platforms) were cited as one of the 3 major contributors to slowing down the line.
What were the other two cited contributers?
I could guess that it is Customers blocking exiting customers from trains. That is why we have the nice painted lines on the platform at 42nd St to tell us customers where to stand as well as all those Platorm Conductors.
HA! Like that works?
-Hank (now at 15W)
Without wishing to debate these issues, the committee designated to study the line also cited the signal system and congestion caused by customer loading and unloading. The signal system will be replaced but likely not until 2007. The customer loading and unloading issues are being addressed by putting boxes on the platform that customers may not wait in, better sinage and one way stairways and of course, customer education.
Are there target levels for improvement in terms of trains per hour, load level or travel time?
I was not part of the group for which the question was posed so I don't know how it was framed. From the direction of the solutions, I would assume that the main focus would be trains per hour.
Any idea as to what the target TPH would be?
How about one way turnstiles at end of a one way stairway. People trying to go down the up side would hit the turnstile at the top of the stairs, so they would have to go down the right side and through the turnstiles at the bottom.
How about advertising the escalator rule like DC does: Standers to the right, walkers to the left.
[How about one way turnstiles at end of a one way stairway. People trying to go down the up side would hit the turnstile at the top of the stairs, so they would have to go down the right side and through the turnstiles at the bottom.
How about advertising the escalator rule like DC does: Standers to the right, walkers to the left.]
I don't think the crowded stations have the room/capacity for turnstyles. As to the escalator signs, someone said something here once about lawsuits, though that seems like typical bureaucratic waffling to me. But many escalators are too crowded at peak periods to let people pass anyway. What they could do is speed up the escalators some--right now, they're a lot slower than taking the stairs.
At lexington or Roosevelt though, it is incredibly annoying when two people are standing next to each other and talking, 100 people behind them and no one in front. There are just as many walkers as standers on escalators, as more people are in a rush than not. If the walkers could walk, then they wouldn't stand.
Wider escalators would be better too. Why are the ones at Roosevelt at such an odd size? You can't fit two normal sized people side by side, but there is extra space on the side.
I'm not sure.
Actually, the capacity increases if you walk faster than the escalator moves. If you ever go down the escalator at Lexington, you'll notice the stair walkers are going faster than the escalator standees.
[Actually, the capacity increases if you walk faster than the escalator moves. If you ever go down the escalator at Lexington, you'll notice the stair walkers are going faster than the escalator standees.]
Definitely--but at rush hour you can't get past the standees.
This IS at rush hour.
If standees were discouraged from staying on the left, then some efficiency can be had. But really, things aren't going to be that efficient, if the walkers walk slower than the escalator is moving (walking speed, not actual travel speed) then capacity is LOST.
05/31/2000
I've noticed escalators on the NYCTA are slower than others anywhere. I guess they play it safe to avoid injury lawsuits. Like those recorded safety messages you hear as a disclaimer.
Bill "Newkirk"
Well, they just spent millions rehabbing this station, so the idea of moving the platforms 200' northwards has probably been forgotten about.
I HATE this station, with it's curves. A straight station might mean a possible increase of service on the entire line.
(I HATE this station, with it's curves. A straight station might mean a possible increase of service on the entire line.)
This sounds like a communter as opposed to a Railfan.
Unfortunately in an organization as complex as the NYCT, planning is done decades in advance. This is just supposition but I would guess that the plan for 14th street rehab was purely cosmetic and done long before increased service was a priority. Hence the movement of the platforms might have been viewed as unnecessary, then.
[Unfortunately in an organization as complex as the NYCT, planning is done decades in advance. This is just supposition but I would guess that the plan for 14th street rehab was purely cosmetic and done long before increased service was a priority. Hence the movement of the platforms might have been viewed as unnecessary, then.]
I'd edit that from "complex" to "bureaucratic, monopolistic, and run by the government." There are huge companies that turn on a dime, because competition demands it.
Because the original Contract One route was built as close to the street as possible through most of Manhattan, it followed whatever street it ran under. At Union Square, the line transitions from Park Ave. to Fourth Ave. (the short segment which is still called 4th Ave.), which accounts for the curve in the middle of the station. In retrospect, the station could have been built further south, or the line could have been built deeper and in a straighter line. Either there were buildings on either side which needed to be shorn up, thus preventing a straight station, or it could have been overlooked altogether.
Since I'm sure alot of people aren't aware of the term gap filler, why don't everyone use the term moving platform on this board?
Because anyone familiar with 14th Street will understand the reference.
Those not, will not understand moving platform either.
The reverse should be done. People at Union Sqare (the tourist type) think the actual platforms move, not those 'old looking metal things'. It fills a gap, thus gap filler.
All this talk about gap fillers leads me to a question:
What gap are the gap fillers at Times Square actually filling? They aren't the type you see at 14th St or South Ferry. They come out from underneath the platform and meet the train below the level of the doors. It doesn't fill the gap at platform level or at door level. It's a net under a trapeeze compared to a bridge over water (like 14 and SF). You'll fall if you misstep, just not all the way down to track level.
The gap there isn't as wide, but it's enough. It keeps people, if they misstep, from falling right down to the track.
-Hank
At the very least, I'd like to see the platform widened to eliminate what I think is an unacceptably hazardous narrowing at the south end of the downtown platform. But I wonder--given the cost of a massive remodeling, would it be a lot cheaper to replace the gap fillers with a more modern design? It seeems to me they could be replaced with gap fillers that don't require all that maintenance and supervision, don't require precise alignment of the trains, extend and retract responsively, and sense when someone is standing on them to prevent a safety hazard and free the train to move off as soon as the doors are closed.
The narrow southern end now has a railing on the express side.
-Hank
[The narrow southern end now has a railing on the express side.]
I've seen that. It's an improvement, but it's far from sufficient.
Take a break from my rant about criminals and enjoy a fantastic 360° panorama image of NYC taken at the magic hour from Brooklyn waterfront. The 360s are from Corbis Images web site, in Apple QuickTime VR. (and it's transit related: a PANY&NJ warehouse & sign is in the shot!) Go for the "Jumbo", it's worth it!
http://www.corbisimages.com/pano/default.asp#fd
Three images:
Vegas
NYC
South Beach
What do the different light on the NJT speedometers mean?
Their small circles, red, yellow, green over yellow, green.
No max speed indication. How do they know to what speed they have to slow down to?
I think that the lights are located next to the corresponding speed on the speedometer. There is a similar system on Metro North.
Does anyone need a listing
Metro North --all 3 Branches
Amtrak from Shell to Avenue
Empire Connection
Does anyone need an updated listed for this one,too??
I could use a listing of LIRR Towers for my LIRR History website. I will certainly give you credit for anything you can contribute.
Yes, yes ,yes. Please post them or send them.
Have you ever heard of something called signal rules or NORAC qualifacation? On most railraods other than the LIAR you need to study and pass tests on the many many different type of signals and what they mean. Cab signals are included in this and any RR employee will know that Red (white) is RESTRICTING and means 15 mph, yellow is APPROACH and means 30 mph, G/Y is APPROACH MEDIUM and means 45 mph and Green is CLEAR and means normal speed.
Recently I took a lot of pictures of AEM7ACs. Because I put emphasis on NortheastDirect Trains #182, #85, and #190.
I observed that when a heavily-repaired or remanufactured AEM7 is back on the road, they always start on a shorter route, like between Washington, DC and NYC. Once the locomotive is on road shape, Amtrak will put them to haul Metroliners or NortheastDirect Trains to New Haven.
Because AEM7AC is an unproven product, Amtrak tends to put them on either NY-Washington route or NY-Philly route first to bring them slowly. Because I live near Washington, DC, I focus on NY-Washington NortheastDirect Trains.
I observed that when I caught AEM7ACs, they pulled trains #182, #85, and #190. What's in common between these train numbers? They are all NY-Washinton routes. The locomotive pulling #182 to NY usually pulls #85 back to DC.
My advice is that if you focus on Train #85, you will have a larger chance to catch an AEM7AC.
Chaohwa
I'm interested in knowing..
Which year were the r22's eliminated?
Which units were re-numbered?
Any lifespan information on r22 #7477?
All R22's, as well as their R21 cousins, were retired in the autumn of 1987 after completion of the R62A delivery.
like do you ride the ""san diegan"" or did you once ride the train to las vegas maybe from los angeles to
santa barbara of cource I want to experence the metrolink soon so I can comment on that also !!!
I saw a old film about the cant spell this right ""ZEPHYR" style motor coaches pulled by santa fe & union pacific....
maybe some of you older than me ( I am 50 ) can tell me about riding on those trains back in the good old days !!!
like do you ride the ""san diegan"" or did you once ride the train to las vegas maybe from los angeles to
santa barbara of cource I want to experence the metrolink soon so I can comment on that also !!!....
I saw a old film about the cant spell this right ""ZEPHYR" style motor coaches pulled by santa fe & union pacific....
maybe some of you older than me ( I am 50 ) can tell me about riding on those trains back in the good old days !!!
any west coast commuter or amtrak riders out there ??
Excerpts From the Daily News-
(complete article at http://www.mostnewyork.com/today/News_and_Views/Crime_File/a-68123.asp
Taylor told investigators that he and Godineaux met at 9 p.m. on Merrick Blvd. in
Queens at a prearranged location.
"You got the tape?" Godineaux asked Taylor, referring to duct tape. Taylor replied that he did.
"You got the biscuit?" Godineaux asked, using a street term for gun.
Taylor said he did, patting his fanny pack. The two men took an E train to 74th St. and Roosevelt Ave., then transferred to a No. 7 train to Flushing.
They arrived about 11 p.m., just before closing time. There were a
few customers in the Main St. eatery. The two men went to the
counter, placed orders and then sat at separate tables.
----
Taylor said he took the gun back and put it in his fanny pack. The
duo then lugged their heavy bag of loot out of the restaurant.
Taylor took a Q58 bus home.
--------
It's scary that these guys rode on the subway carrying the weapon used for the murders. Even scarier, is that after committing the murders, he rode on a bus carrying the cash with him.
I sure bet that Q58 bus driver is grateful that the madman didn't do
anything on the bus. Just thinking of it gives me chills. I feel bad for that Q58 driver.
I'm so suprised that the killers got so far.
For me, Main street in Flushing will never be the same. I always ate in that Wendy's and recognized the 5 people that were killed.
This is a major setback for Flushing, as many people re-think how safe it is. And Wendy's will be closed for a long time, and perhaps will never re-open.
And the fact that the woman waiting at the bus stop who identified the murderers was a prostitute, alone states that Flushing can be a very scary place at night.
Not only did the Wendy's killers kill 5 innocent, hard working people and injure another 2, they have killed Main street. Never will I feel the same when I walk down there again. Main street Flushing will never be the same.
"And the fact that the woman waiting at the bus stop who identified the murderers was a prostitute, alone states that Flushing can be a very scary place at night."
Why does that alone state that Flushing can be a scary place at night?
Please see my response to this exact post on Bus-Talk - Post 16140
I have.
We'll have to see what the momentum is. Major development has been approved for the Flushing waterfront, although the planning process may have taken too long for this economic cycle -- lenders are cutting back on financing for real estate.
This was a fairly random crime in a location sense. This guy could, and did, stick up stores just about anywhere. He wasn't from Flushing, and did crimes throughout the borough. If he had been working at a Wendy's in Midtown, the crime would have occurred in Midtown.
I agree that Wendy's will probably close the location if they can open elsewhere in Flushing.
BTW, a NYC executive order makes it illegal to discriminate against someone in hiring based on prior record of arrest and conviction. State and federal discrimination laws to not preclude such discrimination. If either of these guys are ever paroled, he could always get a job as a NYC school lunch room attendant.
[This was a fairly random crime in a location sense. This guy could, and did, stick up stores just about anywhere. He wasn't from Flushing, and did crimes throughout the borough. If he had been working at a Wendy's in Midtown, the crime would have occurred in Midtown.]
Many of the news reports I've read have noted that Flushing is a fairly low-crime district. Hopefully, the neighborhood won't suffer too much as a result.
(This was a fairly random crime in a location sense. This guy could, and did, stick up stores just about anywhere. He wasn't from Flushing, and did crimes throughout the borough. If he had been working at a Wendy's in Midtown, the crime would have occurred in Midtown.)
The location appears to be one of convenience and may have something to do with the availabilty of the subway. The perps arrived by subway and left by bus rather than by car.
In Los Angeles, where there is no good public transit, banks near freeway on ramps are prime targets for robbers.
If either of these guys are ever paroled, he could always get a job as a NYC school lunch room attendant.
There shouldn't be an issue of "ever gets paroled." But there realistically is almost no such thing as life in prison.
And with the blood still fresh, the Queens DA is waffling on whether this is a death peanlty case.
"This was a fairly random crime in a location sense. This guy could, and did, stick up stores just about anywhere. He wasn't from Flushing, and did crimes throughout the borough. If he had been working at a Wendy's in Midtown, the crime would have occurred in Midtown."
I second that. Chicagoans who heard the news reports of the Wendy's shootings were almost universally reminded of the Brown's Chicken massacre (as it seems to be universally termed by the media) a few years ago. Same scenario, only there were no survivors so the criminals haven't been caught yet. That happened out in the suburbs, in Palatine. Palatine isn't Lake Forest (ritzy North Shore suburb) but it isn't Robbins (crime-ridden southern suburb), either.
"I agree that Wendy's will probably close the location if they can open elsewhere in Flushing."
The Brown's Chicken was replaced by a totally different store. I don't remember if the restaurant was torn down and the new store was built on the site, or if the store moved into the restaurant space, but it was clear almost from day one that Brown's Chicken was NOT going to reopen in that location.
There is a diner on the north-west corner of Glen Cove Rd. and Jericho Turnpike. Many years ago, a maurauding band of mis-understoods. went in on a Saturday night and robbed the owner & patrons. They also saw fit to rape several of the females - just for fun. (They were all caught and prosecuted) I was not there that night but I get a small knot in my stomach when I pass there.
I've been mugged twice in my life. Once at the corner of 105th St and 5th Ave (as a cab driver) and once on the L Line (when I taught in Carnarsie). Every time I pass either location, I get a small knot in my stomach.
To associate an uneasy feeling with an unpleasant event is very common. It's how long these uneasy feelings can last, that amazes me. I guess that's why they say "You have to get right back on to the horse."
I pass that diner often and never eat there. It's somewhat isolated location, and what happened there in the past deters me.
The Wendy's shooting alone hasn't made me feel what I feel about Flushing, but it is a major setback for me with that area. There have been other setbacks prior to the Wendy's shooting.
Caldor was a major draw, and when it closed the effect was very noticable. Also vacant buildings have stayed vacant, like the SE corner of Main&Roosevelt, and the vacant graffitied stores between Dunkin Donuts and Chung Hwa bookstore.
Genovese has moved to a more out of the way location up Main street, while the old one sits vacant.
Stern's is in worse shape than ever with escalators always broken, and perhaps it may even close.
The Wendy's shooting has awakened me about what is happening to Flushing. They picked that location because they knew they could get away with it. During the day, Flushing is busy with people traveling between buses and the 7 train. But once that commuter traffic dies down, the there is less people around. The problem is that while the transit is there, big stores and stuff to do at night isn't. The Flushing library, which is a huge, nice facility, closes at 6 or 7pm most days and earlier on the weekend. The library, which is very crowded all the time, should be open till 9 or 10pm at night. Why they close so early is beyond me. Even in "sleepy" Roslyn by me the library is open till 9pm most nights. An effort should be made to have stores be open later, and fill up big vacancies like former Caldor's and to bring a movie theater into town. I think these things would help Flushing a great deal. It is perhaps one of the most easily accessible parts of Queens with so many bus routes going there, as well as the 7 train which has the most frequent service.
But, as I said before, the pain and sickening feeling when I think of Flushing will be with me for a long time. I ate there often and pass there everytime I go to Flushing. Perhaps they should put a memorial garden where Wendy's was.
[There have been other setbacks prior to the Wendy's shooting. Caldor was a major draw, and when it closed the effect was very noticable.]
Finding a replacement tenant for the Caldor's site is not an easy task. It's a big site that I seem to recall is located on more than one level. It's too large for specialty retailers such as CVS, Gap, Barnes & Noble, and so on. Subdividing the property might be too expensive to be worthwhile, and zoning could be an issue. None of the major discount chains are likely candidates - Target prefers to build its own sites (as it did in College Point), Wal*Mart and Kohl's like to stick with suburban locations, and K-Mart is itself in somewhat dicey financial condition. And the site's multilevel design, if my recollection is correct, is yet another obstacle, as most retailers prefer a single level. About the only type of retailer that might be interested is a department store, but the medicore performance of the nearby Stern's probably will quash any interest.
(Finding a replacement tenant for the Caldor's site is not an easy task. It's a big site that I seem to recall is located on more than one level. It's too large for specialty retailers such as CVS, Gap, Barnes & Noble, and so on. Subdividing the property might be too
expensive to be worthwhile, and zoning could be an issue).
Zoning is definately not an issue. The zoning is C4, which allows almost anything except large factories. Given the shortage of just about all stores and services in NYC, the virtual non-existence of commercial zoning (other than neighborhood "main streets"), and the political difficulties and cost of getting a special permit to put a store in a manufacturing zone, the site is a gem.
Most likely, the site is caught up in bankrupcy, and its owners want too much money. National retailers are going broke everywhere, and those left standing want a large site with parking off a highway, because that is what they are used to.
However, indigenous businesses waiting to expand could really use the site. It could renovated into retail on the ground floor, services (ie. a health club) on one upper floor, and small offices above. All are in short supply in Queens. But that takes active management and investment, and you won't get either in a property stuck in bankrupcy.
The site just needs to be sold to be turned around.
[re old Caldor's site in Flushing]
[Most likely, the site is caught up in bankrupcy, and its owners want too much money. National retailers are going broke everywhere, and those left standing want a large site with parking off a highway, because that is what they are used to.
However, indigenous businesses waiting to expand could really use the site. It could renovated into retail on the ground floor, services (ie. a health club) on one upper floor, and small offices above. All are in short supply in Queens. But that takes active management and investment, and you won't get either in a property stuck in
bankrupcy.]
Caldor's bankruptcy shouldn't in and of itself be an insurmountable problem. Most of the sites have been "recycled" to other uses. In particular, Kohl's snagged a number of Long Island sites, demolishing everything except the exterior walls.
I suspect that the ongoing vacancy in Flushing is due to the percieved undesirability of the location. I know of two other former Caldor's site that remain vacant - East Patchogue, Long Island and Waterbury, Connecticut - and both of them are in generally run-down, non-affluent locations.
And Hillary and the West Side Liberals will insist these two rotten scumbags should NOT get the death penalty. I'll bet there are many of us on this site who would love to be the ones to inject those two bastards.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I'm not exactly for the death penalty either but I'm certainly for life without parole for those two scumbags that commited that horrible crime. Let them ROT TO HELL!! in prison. I would certainly be willing to lock them up and throwing away the key. Those scumbags should DIE!! in prison. They should NEVER!! see the light of day AGAIN!!
BMTJeff
I agree that they should die in prison...
Of a death inflicted by an official executioner.
Pigs of Royal Island:
The Wendy's killers should not die of a death in inflicted by an executioner. They should remain in a prison cell for the rest of their lives and die in the prison cell. An executioner putting them to death is too easy for them. They should suffer for the rest of their life then die.
BMTJeff
Yes, they should suffer for the rest of their lives.
For the rest of their lives abbreviated by the death penalty.
Pigs of Royal Island:
Why kill them? Put them in a prison cell for the rest of their lives. This is a worse fate than death. Those scumbags can be bored for the rest of their lives. Maybe they would die from boredom. Plus the prison cell that they would be in should be filled with rats and cockroaches. Those creatures are probably higher up on the evolutionary scale than those scumbags. I also think that their prison cell should be filled with slime since slime is disgusting like them.
BMTJeff
Prisons are filling up. There's always a chance the prisoners can escape even with a dental floss. If there's no doubt who did it, then their fate should be in the justice's hands at will. The members of the victim's families should participate in the eventual execution.
It is not the duty of society to furnish dwellings for murderous scum for 60 years.
Give them 10 or less, then kill them. Free up space for more creatures that deserve to be punished.
06/01/2000
I agree with the sentiment of Pigs and #7rider. Locking them up for 60 years or so is not punishment at all. They won't get bored, they'll adjust to this way of life. Besides the possiblity of an escape and "teaching" their trade to locked up criminals of lesser crimes awaiting parole makes capital punishment a must. The future mass murderers must know that capital punishment rather than life behind bars will happen if they execute innocent people. They must fear their lives will cease if they cease the lives of others. THEY MUST KNOW FEAR !! Criminals don't fear anything, since "beating the system" is always the game. That's when we lose the game.
Bill "Newkirk"
I agree, they took lives and as such should revoke all of there rights,when you cross that line and take a life your'e rights are revoked,execpt in self defense..if there is no other way around it.
Karl M,Ex New Yorker:
You're absolutely right that the Wendy's killers right should be taken away from them for the rest of their lives. They don't deserve to see the light of day EVER AGAIN!!
BMTJeff
a few days before the killing, i was in that exact wendy's around the same time those stinking criminals did what they did on that day. after seeing what happened i was overwhelmed. what if that were me is what i said to myself for the whole time it happened. i hope they give them the croke penalty.
[And Hillary and the West Side Liberals will insist these two rotten scumbags should NOT get the death penalty.]
As much as I loathe Hillary, she has criticized the idiot judge who let John Taylor out on $3,500 bail after he was busted for armed robbery ***while on probation*** for a similar crime. Hillary also supports the death penalty, although she hasn't made it a big issue in her campaign.
I still detest her, though.
To quote one person interviewed by a reporter at the scene, Taylor and friend "should feel the same pain they inflicted on the victims and their families. Put them inside the tiger cage at the Bronx Zoo"
If we do that, we will repeat the fate of the Roman Empire.
There is a limit to everything, brutal killing is not solved by more brutal killing.
They should however, be killed by a firing squad, with no public spectators. It is not the business of our justice system to provide entertainment, such entertainment was provided the last time civilization collapsed.
They should however, be killed by a firing squad, with no public spectators. It is not the business of our justice system to provide entertainment, such entertainment was provided the last time civilization collapsed.
It is only recently, and only in western countries, that public executions are frowned upon. During the inquisition, heretics were frequently burned at the stake in front of an audience. Many people would argue that civilization has improved since then.
I believe your argument fits neatly into the logical falicy known as converting a conditional.
CH.
During the inquisition, heretics were frequently burned at the stake in front of an audience. Many people would argue that civilization has improved since then.
How does that disprove what I've been saying? If civilization has improved since people have stopped public executions, how will it continue to improve if we regress.
Not that executions are the sole reason for any advancement in civilization.
I believe your argument fits neatly into the logical falicy known as converting a conditional.
What the hell is a falicy?
They should however, be killed by a firing squad, with no public spectators. It is not the business of our justice system to provide entertainment, such entertainment was provided the last time civilization collapsed.
The Arab country of Yemen recently made a public execution of a criminal in public by firing squad. It is said to be a deterrent. Let's see if that country will head to a collapse.
"Put them inside the tiger cage at the Bronx Zoo"
Why make a poor tiger sick eating spoiled swine?
Actually if we, as a nation, are committed to the use of the death penalty as a way of seeking a measure of justice and revenge, then we should not trivialize it.
I am not a legal expert but I know that there are very specific criteria that must be met before a murder, even one so brutal as this one, will be considered a capital case. This is why the DA is given 120 days from the date of the indictment to decide whether to seek the death penalty.
I'm personally sorry that the great state of NY did away with the electric chair. Somehow, painlessly slipping intoa deep valium induced sleep before your breathing is stopped, seeps too nice a way for these two to go. The tiger might be inappropriate but I do like the biblical justice of stoning to death - allowing the families of the victims to actively participate. Alternately, the idea of having these two on a gurney around 2nd base at Shea Stadium and then have a Saudi-like executioner 'surgically' remove a limb at a time and leave the limbless torso's to comtemplate their fate as they are slowly permitted to bleed to death.
[ . . . Alternately, the idea of having these two on a gurney around 2nd base at Shea Stadium and then have a Saudi-like executioner 'surgically' remove a limb at a time and leave the limbless torsos to contemplate their fate as they are slowly permitted to bleed to death.]
. . . starting with their 'manhood' (such as it is) and continuing on with the other limbs, in no particular hurry . . . with no anesthesia!
Let them feel the terror that their victims felt.
05/31/2000
(Bleeding hearts, celebrities with too much to say)
"Capital punishment is cruel and inhuman punishment". "Just lockem up for life [at taxpayer expense]".
(Fed up law abiding citzens)
"Well, what about their innocent victims"? "They didn't deserve to die"
(Bleeding hearts, celebrities et al.)
"Well capital punishment is wrong, IT'S NOT GONNA BRING THEM BACK !!!"
Every time I hear that last sentence, my blood pressure rises to 200/100!!
Bill "Newkirk"
I saw another "diamond anomoly" at (yawn) 3:50am this morning: Above the entrance to the N/R Cortlandt Street Station from the World Trade Center concourse, the sign has a diamond N and circle R sign for the lines that can be accessed at that entrance.
What the heck were you doing down there at that time of the morning?
Ah, Todd, sorry i didn't know you'd be up that early (late??). I worked last night. We could have hit China Town for a late supper.
Yikes. That sign probably is at least 14 years old, as there hasn't been a special diamond N line since the first time the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks were closed.
For those of you who might not remember, when the N ran over the Manhattan Bridge (eons and eons ago) there were special diamond N trains which ran from Forest Hills to Whitehall St, making all local stops. These trains ran rush hours only, in the peak direction.
Is there still a blue K sign at 50th St//8th Ave.?
I've seen K signs still hanging around in some of the uptown stops on 8th ave, though this was some time ago.
As for those diamond N signs, some R-32(or is it the R-38's? i don't remeber which)still display these diamond signs, though they are few and far between.
In the Sunday NY Daily News 5/28/00 there is a write up about the effects on Train Operators dealing with suicide by subway.
This article can be found on the NY Daily News website under Sunday
www.nydailynews.com
This has NOTHING to do with the trains, but if you remember WABC radio from the 60s and 70s don't miss WABC Rewound all day today on WABC, with time out fro the ballgame! I know there's a lot of folks in Subtalk who loved that era. And they ain't paying me for promo.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can hear it now ....
"Dan Ingram - Ingram - Ingram - Ingram - Ingram - Ingram - Ingram - Ingram ...."
"Hello world, this is Ron Lundy ...."
And Chuck Leonard is STILL on the radio ....
--Mark
Actually, instead of rewinding it, try listening to it ....
You need the RealAudio player to listen to it ....
--Mark
...... I thought this was some subway & or transit sounds etc.........
You mention radio......does anyone in sub talk remember Joe O'brien and Benny in the mornings on wmca in the 1960's......? it was a show with O'Brien as the disc jockey and he also had a modified high voice which was Benny.....was a wise cracking type which would have O'Brien going crazy...it was a good wake up show along with the rock n roll of the 60's.
I remember both of those guys on WABC. Chuck Leonard was OK. I didn't care for Dan Ingram.
Hey Kevin! Let's tell everyone about the board featuring this:
The New York Radio Message Board
05/30/2000
Yes, and I even recorded about 6 hours of it too!
Bill "Newkirk"
I am planning on buying a scanner to build a web page with my transit pictures over the summer. Any suggestions as to what scanner I should buy? I am looking for something that isn't to expensive but still does a decent scan. I have taken pictures similar to these on this website:
http://www.nycsubway.org/irt/eastside/77th-71.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r262829/r29-8649.jpg (different station, similar pic)
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336/r33-9025.jpg
(different sta, similar pic)
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/wheatn02.jpg (I did the same thing but at Forest Glen)
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/totten05.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/colhts00.jpg (BTW Wayne, I got this pic on September 18)
http://www.nycsubway.org/us/washdc/images/anacos03.jpg
Any help is appreciated. I will make my purchase before I go to camp in the last week of June so that my site can be up by the time school starts (hopefully).
Assuming you are scanning prints: I have an Epson 636U flatbed scanner which cost me about $100 after rebate. It's not listed in the most recent Mac Warehouse catalog I have, but they have a similar unit (the 610) listed for $150 and a much better unit (1200U), including transparency adapter, for $350. All of these units are for a USB port and are both Mac and Windows 98 compatible, and the included software (Adobe PhotoDeluxe, plus more on some models) is easy to use once you get the hang of it. SCSI versions are available as well, I believe. Agfa also has a good model (1236) at $180 for the USB version and $200 for the SCSI version. A transparency adapter is available for another $220, so if you're going to need that then you'd probably be better off with the Epson 1200.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are you planing on scanning slides/negatives or pictures
BIll
I am scanning pictures that have already been developed.
If you plan on scanning pictures (not slides or negatives) Microtek or Hewlett-Packard is a good buy. If you can, get a scanner that uses an SCSI or USB interface; scanners that share your printer port are simply too slow. Alos, if you don't already have one, you should consider some kind of removable mass-storage medium such as a CD-R/RW or ZIP drive.
One thing to remember when scanning pics specifically for posting to web pages: The best resolution you can get on an affordable monitor (read:the majority of internet users) is 72dpi. The best idea when scanning is to scan at 200 dpi, resize it to 72dpi, and then change the width and height of the image. This results in the best quyality for the smallest file size (and thus fastest download time)
-Hank
In general, my advice would be to go either with a paralell port scanner which would have a pass through port to connect your printer to, assuming you don't have another device set up in that way, like a Zip drive, or with a USB scanner because of the flexibility of USB in terms of how many devices you can connect on the same port as well as the fact that they are more plug and play compatible the Plug and Play (especially on the various types of Windows which has always lacked here) systems for PC and Macintosh.
SCSI isn't really an option, as those scanners are often very high level consumer or professional, and show it in the price tag, as well as the fact that you need a SCSI port on your computer - which is not common on PCs, unfortunately - to run SCSI devices like scanners. SCSI in a number of ways is much like USB, and they share many advantages. SCSI is older and less PnP friendly, and of course, more expensive. There are also a whole host of technical differences, naturally, but there's no need to get into those.
Personally, I use a Umax Astra 2000U, which is a USB flatbed scanner which has so far proven to be quite good.
Hope this helps,
-Robert King
My Microtek X6EL (8.5" x 14" scanning bed) was $249, and came with a SCSI card and a slide adapter. The only bad thing I can say is I had to return the first one I got because it was defective. Everything I've scanned on the replacement has been perfect, and there are many examples around.
-Hank
What do I use...
Camera: Canon WP-1 Sure shot 32mm.
Film: Kodak Max 400
Paper and print size: 6 X 4 on Kodak paper
Scanner: UMAX legal-size flatbed
Twain program: VistaScan 32
Paint program(s): Paint Shop Pro 3.1; Corel Photo Paint
I scan at 600DPI but I have the twain program set to scan the 6X4 photo at 22% of actual size; this results in an image roughly 750 by 500 pixels, give or take a few. I also retouch, adjust and sharpen before I make my final JPG file. The working file is BMP until I finish.
wayne
My setup is somewhat similar:
Camera #1:
Canon A-1 SLR with Canon 50mm FD f. 1.8 lens with skylight filter.
This camera is used with Kodak Royal Gold Select Series ISO 100 colour print film, typically the 36 shot rolls. If a desparation situation arises, whatever film can be bought right then and there gets used...better something than nothing.
Camera #2:
Canon AE-1 Program with 50mm FD f. 1.8 lens with skylight filter.
This camera is used with Kodak T400 CN film for black and whitish prints. I say black and whitish because the prints are monochromatic, but have a tint and aren't true greyscales.
When I get the photos back in 4 by 6 inches and scan them, I put them on the Umax 2000U which is essentially the same scanner but for letter size sheets. The scanner is also run by Vista Scan (definately not my favourite scanner operator program). Then, working with a bitmap file about 5.8 MB in size, I used the Lview 2.8 evaluation which expired and now use Photoshop 5 to do the same thing: tinker brightness, contrast, and occasionally colour as necessary, resize images to several useful sizes and save all sizes in both bitmap, GIF, and JPEG and burn a CD when I amass enough images and then remove the originals from the hard drive to free up space for the next time.
The pictures from the all night PCC charter on the transition of May 27/28 are going to go through the computer stage of this process when I get the prints back on Friday...can't wait to see those night shots.
-Robert King
I used to have an AE-1 Program. It was stolen...I loved that camera. Now, when I do film (I don't get the chance that often anymore) I use a Canon Elan II. I do my own B&W processing, again, when time permits. I just wish I had more time to devote to it.
-Hank
It's a shame your AE-1 Program was stolen. Those really are great cameras. I opted to spend all the money necessary to buy the A-1 rather than trade in the AE-1 Program because I like it very much. The biggest reason why I bought an A-1 was so I could use low speed low grain films with the longer controlled exposure times (up to 30 seconds, compared with 2 on the AE-1Pgm) which was really useful on the all night PCC charter on Saturday/Sunday May 27/28 that I'm almost finished recovering from.
B&W processing at home, we'll, I'd love to do that but I don't have the equipment or the time either. So, I'm useing with "colour film for black and white prints" Kodak T 400 CN in the AE-1Pgm since it's 2 seconds maximum exposure time is more than ample for 400 speed film. T 400 CN is supposed to be almost as good as true B&W as far as I know. Does anybody know more about that film?
-Robert King
Visioneer Paperport 3100B does the trick here.
$59.00 at Sam's Club
Visioneer scanners aren't too reliable. The USB versions tend to crash even the most up-to-date PCs (those that are major manufacturers and PCI and USB spec compliant) Acer, HP, and Microtek are the best brands to get.
-Hank
I use a Mustek MFS-8000SP SCSI scanner. When I bought it several years ago it was $400 but I suppose they've come down since. It's been trouble-free over the years. The Micrographics software is excellent and the results are top notch.
I have an HP 6200CSE (now the 6300CSE). $399 at most outlets. USB connectivity. Easy to use. I'm no expert at scanning either, but for me, I'm very happy with it.
--Mark
These prices are on the high side. The prices have dropped significantly, even in just the last 6 months.
-Hank
That's probably true. I was merely quoting the MSRP I've seen ....
--Mark
I am planning on buying a scanner to build a web page with my transit pictures over the summer. Any suggestions as to what scanner I should buy? I am looking for something that isn't to expensive but still does a decent scan.
Don't buy a parallel port scanner. This step immediatly eliminates most of the crap scanners on the market. USB and SCSI scanners scan much faster and generally produce better quality images.
If you're willing to spend the money on good equipment (such as a busmastering host adapter), SCSI is definately the way to go. SCSI is faster than USB and generally more stable. On the downside, you can't hotplug SCSI devices.
CH.
Does anybody know if there is public access to the park on the other side of the Rockaway line tracks in Broad channel? It seems to be a nice place to take a walk and to take pictures of trains and nature. There is a little beach where waterfowl gather and have their nests. You can see the little shore on the left in this photo of the A train.
Here's another picture from a different angle. The park area is on the right side behind the fence.
-Daniel
I'm pretty sure you'd have to go by boat. (the swim might be tough on your camera....)
One way to find out would be at the visitor's center of the Wildlife Refuge. Its a bit north of broad channel on the Cross Bay Blvd. That land is wildlife refuge land, i think, so they'd be the ones to ask.
Even if the answer is "can't go there" it will be worth the trip. Broad Channel is a unique place in NYC, really amazing that it is still out there - and part of the same city as manhattan.
Thanks, I'll check it out. I rode my bike through Broad Channel once and it was like New England! It is probably as far removed from the city as you can get. Maybe they have a place there to rent a JetSki or a canoe to got to the other side.
-Daniel
Yes, it's so rustic out there that indeed Broad Channel still has it's own volunteer fire department, ala most suburban and rural towns.
Ya gotta get a kick out of those houses on stilts over the water. It's a scene right out of some backwater, deep-south community.
Doug aka BMTman
Regarding that volunteer fire department -- perhaps Hank Eisenstein could help answer -- if some fire gets "out of control" and the volunteer department can't really handle it, does FDNY run over to Broad Channel to assist?
I used tohave relatives that lived in Broad Channel -- and hat to admit it, they were a little strange. They fit that place perfectly. Their resience even had an outhouse, and this was in the 1950's!
Steve, I believe that an "out of control" fire in Broad Channel that couldn't be handled by the volunteer corps would certainly get the nearest NYFD unit to respond to the alarm.
Folks should remember that no matter how rustic or backwater Broad Channel might seem, it is still a part of the borough of Queens, and thusly is covered by all the same services as any other neigbhorhood in the city.
Doug aka BMTman
I remember as a kid of 7 and 8, I used to go to Broad Channel Day Camp, and our arch rival was Brooklyn Day Camp in the Rockaways. Are the camps still there. Broad Channel used to be right at the entrance of the bridge (SW corner) to Rockaway on XBay Blvd, Memories
Broad Channel is still there. You can see it's sign from Beach Channel Drive in the Rockaways.
Is it still used as a Day Camp, the place must be 70 years old by now
I was saying that the camp is still there. Not that the site is and it's being used for something else.
And, even if it were a separate jurisdiction, the normal practice is for neighboring fire departments to respond to each other's fires under mutual assistance arrangements.
You can get a good look of the area by taking the A to Broad Channel and walking to the Wildlife Refuge followed by a hike through the refuge. It really is a totally different world. On hot days there is a pond in the refuge that looks like a beach with the ducks acting as the sun-bathers.
Someone seems to have hacked into http://www.wmata.com and changed the front page. Why do people feel like messing up our public transport system's web pages?
The rest of the page is not affected.
That is simply horrible! How did the guy get into the page? How do you get past the first page to get regular transit info?
Chuck Greene
As of this posting the page is back to normal - what did the hacker do?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris:
The page I saw had the most unbelievaable language and was nothing but a "hollaring session" and gripe page. I'm glad the page is back to normal.
Chuck Greene
That is what I saw as well. I guess they found the problem and corrected it. A way to get into the page was to go to Ride-On's web site and go to where it says "Connect to WMATA" which took you to the MD bus schedules.
Metro Web Site Fixed After Bizarre Hacking
(Washington-AP) -- Things are now back to normal on Metro's Internet site. But it was quite a bizarre scene there earlier today, after a hacker got in.
For about four hours, the usual transit information was replaced by an X-rated message. It referred to a squabble involving the rock band Metallica and another Web site, and apparently had nothing to do with Metro.
In fact, the hacker even left an apology of sort at the bottom of the page, writing, "Sorry 'bout this."
Metro is still investigating how it happened. Spokeswoman Cheryl Johnson says they're looking to see if the hacker left an electronic 'signature,' but so far they haven't found one.
And while there's never a good time for a hacker attack, Johnson points out the Metro site normally gets few hits on holidays.
It appears that the hack of the web site had nothing to do with WMATA, and I do not condone hacking, but I found that web site to be extremely frustrating.
I could find no way to leave feedback. I wanted to contact the subway museum to purchase a book and could find no way to do so. As a non-New Yorker, intending to visit in the near future I wnet to the fare section to find out about the fare structure. I expected to find an introduction as to whether there were fare zones or not, what the basic fare was, whether one could pay for a ride upon entering, etc. This was not there. There were only links to Metrocard which assumed the user knew all the basic information. Thats OK for locals, but this is supposed to be information for the whole world.
Whoever developed that site spent a lot of effort on making it look pretty and not enough time on providing information
You're confusing the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of New York State with the Washington Metropolitan Area Transportation Authority.
Thanks for the correction. My rant was directed at the NYC MTA
I spent part of the morning looking at my small collection of pictures of subway and el trains from many years ago. My collection is really pathetic, and I once again realize that most of my best pictures are not on paper but are in my mind.
Don't make the same mistake that I did. If you have favorites such as the redbirds or the slants or any of the other models that are still in service, get out there and take pictures of them now.
The pictures that you take, whether they be good or bad will mean a great deal to you in the years to come. Take my word for it!
My thoughts alike.
As I finish taking pictures of all the stations (I have about 60 to go, mostly elevated), I will turn my attention to taking pictures of what Redbirds remain, as well as R32s, R38s and R40/R40Ms, and PATH PA-1 and PA-2 cars.
A photo of a still-roadworthy R10 #2966 on Death Row at Naporano, sent there only for her lack of air-conditioning, is the saddest sight I have seen in recent memories. I actually cried when I saw it.
"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till its gone..." *
Wayne
*"Big Yellow Taxi"
Lyrics and music by Joni Mitchell
(C) 1969 Siquomb Music Co. BMI All Rights Reserved
It's so sad to see the last one disappear into the gloom of the tunnel. Grab them while you can Wayne.
Simon
Swindon UK
In October of 1989 I was out joyriding and somehow fetched up at the Fulton Street BMT station of the Nassau Street line, just in time to see the Last R10s roar into the station, dressed in their finest Pullman Green and packed with railfans. I am still kicking myself for missing that fan trip. I will NOT make the same mistake next time there is a farewell trip.
wayne
Save me place near the Railfan window. I'll be there.
Simon
Swindon UK
05/30/2000
[Save me place near the Railfan window. I'll be there]
Not if Sallam's there first !!!
Bill "Newkirk"
......... you will be 100% safe until this october when.... I INVADE NEW YORK ( in person ) ..........LOOK OUT MAN ......
Consider it done, mate.
Wayne
You know who was on that train, don't you? Why, none other than Mister R-10 himself, William Padron.
I'm scanning more junkyard pictures. Like HeyPaul, I have a fascination for junk. Maybe we can put an Arrow II in a back yard in Brooklyn one day.
It had to be a sad sight to see the Triplexes being slaughtered in 1964-65.
My last two visits to NYC were done with my still camera and vidieo camera going off shooting the last of the redbirds
on the lines where they last run in panoramic and 28 mm regulat with kodak 400 film day and night ......
all of them and all of the pictures and vidieos are like gold and diamonds to me .........
this october hopefully with the fall colors i will do the same again so I agree with everything you said .........
my redbird vidieos especially the # 7 get excellent reviews & when they are gone they will be loaded into
the new DVD format so they can be preserved forever ..............
I KNOW THE VALUE OF THIS.....!!!..... MAN I SURE MISS THOSE R -1 one THRU R -9 nine....S.....!!!
My last two visits to NYC were done with my still camera and vidieo camera going off shooting the last of the redbirds
on the lines where they last run in panoramic and 28 mm regulat with kodak 400 film day and night ......
all of them and all of the pictures and vidieos are like gold and diamonds to me .........
this october hopefully with the fall colors i will do the same again so I agree with everything you said .........
my redbird vidieos especially the # 7 get excellent reviews & when they are gone they will be loaded into
the new DVD format so they can be preserved forever ..............
I KNOW THE VALUE OF THIS.....!!!..... MAN I SURE MISS THOSE R -1 one THRU R -9 nine....S.....!!!
My last two visits to NYC were done with my still camera and vidieo camera going off shooting the last of the redbirds
on the lines where they last run in panoramic and 28 mm regulat with kodak 400 film day and night ......
all of them and all of the pictures and vidieos are like gold and diamonds to me .........
this october hopefully with the fall colors i will do the same again so I agree with everything you said .........
my redbird vidieos especially the # 7 get excellent reviews & when they are gone they will be loaded into
the new DVD format so they can be preserved forever ..............
I KNOW THE VALUE OF THIS.....!!!..... MAN I SURE MISS THOSE R -1 one THRU R -9 nine....S.....!!!
My last two visits to NYC were done with my still camera and vidieo camera going off shooting the last of the redbirds
on the lines where they last run in panoramic and 28 mm regulat with kodak 400 film day and night ......
all of them and all of the pictures and vidieos are like gold and diamonds to me .........
this october hopefully with the fall colors i will do the same again so I agree with everything you said .........
my redbird vidieos especially the # 7 get excellent reviews & when they are gone they will be loaded into
the new DVD format so they can be preserved forever ..............
I KNOW THE VALUE OF THIS.....!!!..... MAN I SURE MISS THOSE R -1 one THRU R -9 nine....S.....!!!
Recently in the New York Times an article about life in southern Queens referred to St. Albans as an affluent area of expensive houses. This interests me. Has any Subtalker been there, perhaps to the LIRR branch station? If so, what is it like in real life? And what is the LIRR station like?
The Addisleigh Park section of St.Albans has a number of very large and expensive tudor-style homes, similar to those found in Jamaica Estates.
wayne
[Recently in the New York Times an article about life in southern Queens referred to St. Albans as an affluent area of expensive houses. This interests me. Has any Subtalker been there, perhaps to the LIRR branch station? If so, what is it like in real life? And what is the LIRR station like?]
The 'hood itself seems okay, but the LIRR station - at least from track level - is pretty bleak. Half of the platform is closed off and decrepit.
Why is it so surprising to everyone that St. Albans is a nice neighborhood???
What I remember about St. Albans when I was a kid was that Jackie Robinson lived there from about 1948-1954. He then moved to Stamford Connecticut. We all knew where our Brooklyn Dodger heroes lived, and it was nice that Jackie and Gil Hodges became full time residents of New York City when it was just starting to be the beginning of the great migration out of the city into the suburbs of Long Island.
Gil Hodges widow never gave up on city living. She still lives in Brooklyn -- although no longer in their famed Bedford Ave. house. Today Mrs. Hodges lives in Mill Basin which is also the new location of the Gil Hodges Lanes (one of the few remaining bowling alleys in Brooklyn -- that's another topic for forgotten-ny.com -- the disappearing bowling lanes).
Earlier this year, I believe she was trying to get Gil into the Baseball Hall of Fame, but was unsuccessful in her campaign.
Regarding St. Albans: wasn't there a number of affluent blacks that lived there? I know about Jackie Robinson, but I thought that Count Basie, Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong or one or more of those other early Jazz legends lived there. Also, wasn't the house of Malcolm X's that got firebombed in St. Albans?
Doug aka BMTman
Singer Brook Benton (he of the 1970 hit "A Rainy Night In Georgia", among numerous others) lived in Addisleigh Park, St. Albans, IIRC.
wayne
Also Al Roker of the Today show grew up in St Albans, but lives in Yorktown Hts Today. Gil Hodges, lived on East 31 or 32 and Ave L, not Bedfor Ave. Rocky Grazziano used to live on Bedford between N and O
Isn't Bedford a pretty bad street and neighbouhood? just wondering!
Bedford Avenue is 10 miles long. Some parts are more affluent than others, especially south of Avenue H. Just as Broadway in Manhattan has more theaters in some places than in others.
Funny the neighborhood gets better on the other side of the tracks(LIRR) at Ave H. Bedford is the longest street in Brooklyn From Greenpoint on the North to Sheapshead Bay on The South
I thought that honor went to Atlantic Avenue. I could be wrong...
wayne
Atlantic Ave was in 2 Boros, Bedford entirely in Bklyn
Yes, and No.
The northern sections of Bedford Ave. that go through Bed-Stuy and Williamsburg are somewhat depressing. But the Southern areas (from Flatbush down through Midwood) have some very nice homes with tree-lined streets.
Doug aka BMTman
Rocky Graziano is my favorite all time boxer. I have his autograph somewhere and he once paid a visit to our apartment just before he won the middleweight championship in July, 1947. Jack Healy was one of his managers and Tony Lopanto one of my dad's close friends. They brought him by for a visit.
Rocky was a feature on Kings Hwy in the 50s. He always was a guest at PS 197 for assemblies, and at our Temple for boy/cub scout meetings. His wife was really nice(Jewish)
[Regarding St. Albans: wasn't there a number of affluent blacks that lived there? I know about Jackie Robinson, but I thought that Count Basie, Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong or one or more of those other early Jazz legends lived there. Also, wasn't the house of Malcolm X's that got firebombed in St. Albans?]
Louie Armstrong lived in Corona. In fact, I believe his house is some sort of museum today.
Correct. Also St. Albans is/was home to a Naval or a VA hospital providing a lot of jobs for the community. Also Jamaica Bus Lines Garage is at the corner of Guy Brewer and Linden Blvd's in the community.
As a CPA I had a client (she passed away this past December) who lived in a lovely Tudor Style house. All the surronding streets were just as nice. You quickly forgot the notion that you were anywhere near a poor neighborhood.
I happened to be working in a small factory on 164 St. next to Flushing Cemetery in 1971 and saw Louis Armstrong's funeral procession go by.
>>>(one of the few remaining bowling alleys in Brooklyn -- that's another topic for
forgotten-ny.com -- the disappearing bowling lanes).<<<
So it's old bowling alleys you want eh?
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/ADS/morebrook/bowling.html
Hey, Kevin, I almost forgot (sorry about the shameless plug there!) to mention you should also perhaps investigate the few remaining Slot Car Racing emporiums. Remember those?
As of last year I can name one still in existance: Buzzarama on Church Ave. and Dahill Rd. Anybody remember Buzzarama?
I can recall many a "spin-out" on those layouts, while pressing the throttle to make my car pass my brother's car on the hair-pin curves. Those big-scale layouts were something we couldn't get at home with Aurora's miniature version (HO scale). Ahh, the memories!
Doug aka BMTman
Buzzarama sounds like a quiz show with a lot of wrong answers.:-)
I should also mention NYC's ONLY velodrome, in Kissena Park. My friend Gary says that he f...well, he did something for the first time in his life in there and it wasn't bicycling.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey, Fred, Campy lived in St. Albans until 1957 or thereabouts. He moved to Glen Cove before being paralyzed in that tragic auto accident.
And, of course, Pee Wee, Duke, Carl Erskine, and I believe Clem Labine lived in Bay Ridge.
Wasn't Campanella driving a '57 Chevy when the accident occurred?
Caddie Conv. In Manhatten
So did Rube Walker, Preacher Roe and Carl Furillo. That was quite a group and I have never ever given my heart to a team as I did tothe Brooklyn Dodgers. I doubt I can ever feel that way about any team again.
I've noticed that the TA has begun to create trains that use similar, but different cars.
For instance, Trains of R-32s are often mixed with R-38's, and R-40m's get mixed in with R-42s.
But, they don't do this with R-46/44s, R-68/68a's and R-62/62a's. So, why are they doing this?
On the I.R.T., this was common practice, from the time the R12/14's, & R15's left the #7 for the main line in 10/63. (Look at some of the pictures in this site). This "mix & match" lasted into the mid 80's.
The IRT also did this back mixing lo volts and high volts.
Couldn't be done. If you mixed the High-v (600 volt control) and Low-V 32 v or so you'd blow the whole control system out on a Low-v.they could be mixed air only, the electric brake systems were different. Therefore never mixed except for one to p ull the other dead. High-v to HV only; flivvers could probably MU electrically and air but not electric brake; Steinways could mix with Low-v but wasn't normally done, except for trailers on 3rd Ave., due to Steinways having less HP. They didn't look very different but the IRT subway div. had 4 fleets of normally non-compatible cars. Feel free to e-mail me--
The Steinways were geared differently for the grades in the Steinway tubes; hence their nickname. IIRC, standard Lo-Vs could run in the Steinway tubes as long as they ran in a solid train of motors; i. e., no trailers.
Most unfortunately. Because dynamic braking was different on later cars it made for some lousy train handling.
Miixing R40m and R42 had been done occasionally years ago; worked OK; R32 an R38 mix was bad, braking was dissimilar [dynamic brake] and the R38 was the worst braking of the fleet when they were new. Perhaps the rebuild program changed that. On the other hand they were a lot smoother accelerating than the R32. The r44 and R46 were only semi-compatible when new due to the R46 having an electric charging circuit thru the train that the R44 didn't have--all the air came from the head end {brake pipe). Perhaps they still have this difference even after rebuild??? The R68 I don't know, left NYC before they showed up. But when I worked there the 44 and 46 weren't mixed.
When the R-42s were first delivered, you could see them mixed in with then unair-conditioned R-32s.
--Mark
And that's what I remember seeing on the D line in the late 60s.
The R-44s and R-46s are not compatible with one another due to differences in wiring. Even before GOH, there were handwritten notices in R-44 cabs which said, "Do not couple electrically to R-46".
R40M's and R42 are still mixed all the time I was on one last night on the L
R44 and R46 can't be mixed. R68/68a occasionally mixed, in sets of 4, usually on the B or N. R40M and R42 frequently mixed. R32 GE always with R38s. Sometimes regular R32s will end up with R38s. Redbirds of type R26, 28, 29 are always mixed together. R36 Mainline and WF cars are mixed on the 6. There is always an R33 single on the 7, all other cars R36WF. Have no clue on R62 / 62a, but since all the 62s are in one yard, which has no 62as I doubt there was ever an instance where they were mixed.
The G train uses 4th ave. to turn around. At the station, there are the 2 express tracks, and the 2 local tracks. Just outside the station(going northbound) the express tracks are in serious need of a repair, and there are red lamps there signaling drivers not to proceed.
But, just before the location of those lamps, there is a short one-track spur that descends while the viaduct climbs. What was the purpose of this spur? If anyone knows please tell me.
Nobody knows. I've speculated that it was meant to connect to a spur at the docks of the Gowanus canal, but that's never been proven
It's obivous, it's just a storage track.
Pigs, I don't think so. If you go down to the street and look up at the underside of the structure, you can see where the part that carries that track projects down below the rest of the structure. There is now a factory building directly below, but the part that sticks down looks very much like the beginning of a ramp to the surface.
That's because it stays level. The other tracks rise to cross the Gowanus Canal.
It's just a pocket. The track in it is LEVEL, so the train, should there be some kind of brake failure, won't roll down the ramp into the 4th Ave station. That's the ONLY reason it's in a hole like that.
-Hank (Dad's parking the car in front of the house...)
There's been a lot of discussion about this track in the newsgroup nyc.transit lately.
One poster thought it was supposed to descend to Gowanus Canal for new IND car deliveries.
Another suggested that it may have been installed as a connection to the 4th Avenue BMT -- but when the IND was built, it was intended as competition to the IRT and BMT -- and besides, the track would have to do a 180-degree turn to get back to the 4th Avenue BMT.
The explanations in nyc.transit varied -- but the one that made th most sense is that when the IND was built, provisions were made in various places for a layup track where a BO train could be parked out of the way. There are also such tracks on the "A" in the vicinity of Lafayette Avenue, north of World Trade Center, an above 72nd Street/Central Park West, as well as a few other locations on other lines. However, all these other locations have access from both ends of the spur tracks; the one west of 4th Avenue is a stub-end spur track.
I know we ran a thread on this a while ago, but I still don't know: what is going to happen to the powerhouse? Are they going to preserve it, make it into a museum, luxury lofts, commercial, etc.? I think it is quite a grand building and should be preserved or converted. Mr. www.jerseycityhistory.net should have an answer for this.
-Daniel
Last week, 9143 was heading an uptown #6 leaving Brooklyn Bridge, and there was a hole in the red paint. You could see the old ilver and part of the blue strip, and it looked in good condition (I thought they stripped all of that upon overhauling)
Come up to Brandford and see an old paint scheme and some old graffitti that was uncovered as the graffitti proof paint is being pealed off of 6688 (R17). She won't be naked for long, the guys did a great job this weekend on her (a.k.a Stef).
She is in the shop, and that is part of the tour >G<.
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Paul
Congratulations on ridding yourself of the horrors of AOSmell.
I was Railfanning on the Queens boulevard Subway on Friday, because the E line is my Home line. But judging by my Handle you all know which one I like more. I went Railfanning on the E which was an R46. However, when we left Queens Plaza, tell me why the doors close and now Bing-Bong was heard. The doors sounded just like the R32's. But when we got to Jackson heights, the Bells rung then! Can I assume that the bells are controlled by the Conductor, and can be turned off at will?
The conductor has no control over the chime. As to why you didn't hear it once, there are 2 possibilities.
One) It rang and you didn't hear it.
Two) The chime is triggered by a device that for some unknown reason is called the 'Chime Relay'. This relay may have gotten temporarilly stuck.
Of course, this is only a guess.
No way conductors can control the door chime. When I rode R46 trains, sometimes the door chime is out of order, or the sound interval is too short, etc.
Because the electronic device that controls the door chime is unstable, that's why you hear sometimes the door chime is on, or sometimes the door chime is off.
Chaohwa
I have seen that happen several times, though usually it happens in one of three ways:
1. The doors on one side close and chime, but the other side doesn't.
2. No doors chime at all.
3. The door chime will sound only when the conductor uses the PA system, instead of him speaking you hear the combination of both tones. The door does not chime while closing. I only know of one car with that problem, the number escapes me. I actually think the whole set has the problem.
[ 3. The door chime will sound only when the conductor uses the PA system, instead of him speaking you hear the combination of both tones.]
I've been on that one. Sometimes you hear part of the anouncement after the chime finishes. And the doors kind of rattle back and forth as long as they are "open".
These are the list of trains that I want to know when they will retire:
R32
R38
R40
R42
R44
R46
Also are they gonna rebuilt R62/62A and R68/68A? And when? Also is it true that when they rebuilt the R62/62A and the R68/68A they are gonna have digital signs? if you know right to me
R-32...most will be retained for at least 5 years
R-38...most apparently will be retained for at least 5 years
R-40...most to be replaced by next order (660 cars)
R-42...most to be replaced by next order
R-44, R-46...All (except any future accident victims that can't be repaired) to be retained for over 5 years
As to rebuilding, NYCT doesn't do complete overhauls (what used to be called GOH) anymore. The R-62 through R-68A cars, along with all other NYCT car classes (except the experimental R-110A/110B), have been the beneficiaries of what's called the SMS program. SMS stands for Scheduled Maintenance System. Under SMS, the life cycle of each component on each car class has been determined, and the component is replaced before that life cycle has been reached. Where cost-effective, an upgraded version is installed. For instance, the air/electric Westinghouse propulsion controllers under the R-62A, R-68, and R-68A cars are being replaced by all-electric Adtranz e-cam controllers (Adtranz bought out Westinghouse a few years ago).
David
Are the r-40 and r-42 actually less reliable than the r-42 and r-46?
I would have thought the opposite.
The R46 is VERY reliable; the R44 somewhat less so but not by much.
Actually the R40 has one of the best MDBF rates in the entire system (R68 is best).
Wayne
Well, the door chimes on the R-46s could use a tweaking pitchwise.:-)
Actually the R40 has one of the best MDBF rates in the entire system
But isn't this skewed somewhat with most R-40 slants not running during weekends?
--Mark
(Retained beyond 5 years)
With all the debt King George is loading on the MTA, I hope the TA isn't counting on buying any new cars -- or doing any more capital work -- from 2004 until 2020. If a recession hits, you may not even get spare parts.
Hey, wasn't the MTA left in a debt hole the last time the LIRR got a new fleet? I guess they figure that way the suburbanites won't be put out by a return to the 1970s -- until 2030 and the LIRR stink because they haven't been maintained, AGAIN.
AdTranz did not buy out Westinghouse. Westinghouse spun off all of it's technlogical subsidiaries, one such spin-off is the Amrail business, know known as AdTranz. That which was not spun off was sold to another company (like Westinghouse Lighting to Philips). Then, Westinghouse changed it's name to CBS Communications.
They have already been, or are near being taken over by Viacom.
Actually, Westinghouse did what you said, with the following exception: Westinghouse retained the broadcasting part of their holdings, which ACQUIRED CBS, Inc. Westinghouse Broadcasting then changed its name to CBS, Inc. They then acquired Infinity Broadcasting, which remains as the radio side of CBS' holdings. CBS is about to merge with Viacom, it's anybody's guess what the merged company will go by. Betcha it will stay CBS, with the Viacom part as another division. This big fish being eaten by bigger fish stuff, both in communications and computers is a merry-go-round like the street railway combines at the turn of the last century.
CBS, Inc. was acquired a couple of years before Westinghouse decided to get rid of everything industrial and technological that they owned (broadcasting is different).
So who's doing the buying, CBS or Viacom? Hopefully the prior 'cause otherwise it would mean the end of independently owned TV Networks (PAX is too small to count, and I don't think they have any original programming).
The Westinghouse - CBS combine happened all at the same time period. Remember when most tv stations in the country changed networks? That was the manuvering to get all the Westinghouse Broadcasting owned stations as the CBS affiliate. (Example: Balitmore's channel 13 (WJZ-TV) has been owned by Westinghouse since 1957 and was the long-time ABC affiliate here. Suddenly it and the other two VHS stations swapped, too. Two weeks later, it was announced that Westinghouse Broadcasting was acquiring CBS.)
I remember. But I have a question about Baltimore. When WJZ-13 switched from ABC to CBS, what channel became ABC, 2 or 11? You said that all 3 VHF stations changed networks, so how were they before Westinghouse took over CBS?
In Philadelphia (and at my house in the Bronx if the weather was just right) the Westinghouse station, KYW-3, was the NBC station (it was even owned briefly by NBC in the early 60s) while CBS was WCAU-Channel 10 (which it owned). When Westinghouse took over they sold WCAU to NBC and switched KYW-3 (its own station) to CBS. Since CBS already owned Channel 10, why didn't Westinghouse just sell off KYW-3 to NBC and not end up confusing viwers in Philly. That would have been the simpler thing to do. People I knew in Philly kept tuning to Channel 3 for Saturday Night Live and Seinfeld in 1996, 1 year after it was forced to start showing crappy CBS shows (with the exceptions of Letterman and 60 Minutes). The way Westinghouse did it was stupid, and they ruined Channel 2 News here in New York by firing almost all the good anchors and reporters.
BTW, does anyone know if FOX-5 in New York was ever a Westinghouse station? When I was a kid, I remembered seeing a lot of Group W (Westinghouse-produced) shows on Channel 5. Also its call letters were WNEW just like the FM radio station (102.7), which was owned by Westinghouse. Did Westinghouse own any TV stations in New York, because none of our major stations have changed networks in my lifetime (22 years)?
Prior to the big swap, WJZ (13) was ABC, WMAR (2) was NBC and WBAL (11) was CBS. After the big swap, 13 was CBS, 2 was ABC and 11 was NBC. Oddly, back in the late 70's, 2 & 11 swapped networks. 2 had been CBS, which was suffering from ratings lag. 11 wanted to dump long-time NBC, which was lower then than CBS. 11 grabbed CBS, leaving NBC with possibly only a UHF station as the local affiliate (2 wasn't really interested in the ratings loser), but finally NBC actually paid 2 to affiliate. Fast forward to the 90's, NBC is on top nationally, CBS is #2 and ABC is last, but closing fast. The swap takes place, and 2 ends up with ABC - which is promptly eaten by Disney, and guess what local station ended up the major winner?
The old WNEW-TV was at that timew owned by MetroMedia which did a lot of business w/Westinghouse thru syndication of old TV shows.
The purchase of CBS by Westinghouse and the channel swap occured at the same time, but Westinghouse getting rid of it's traditional business happened about a year later.
Actually, Dan, the CBS/Viacom merger happened a few weeks ago. The new company is Viacom, and the stock ticker "CBS" is no longer on the NY Stock Exchange. However, Infinity (INF) sitll is; it's a public company the majority shares of which are held by Viacom (formerly CBS). Infinity holds the radio stations and outdoor advertising (including subway/bus advertising).
And that's Transit and Broadcasting Together.
Basically that means that UPN and CBS are now owned by the same company.
Some aspects GOH would have addressed are not covered by SMS, like getting rid of the useless cabs in the middle of the linked sets for more seating space. Or, replacing (removing?) that metal paneling. And, though I'd hate to see them go, replacing the side signs with digital ones.
GOH might not have covered getting rid of "useless" cabs. There's an awful lot of circuit breakers, wiring, etc. in those cabs even though the cabs aren't being used by the train crews. It would all have to go SOMEplace. Replacement of scratched panels has been deemed too expensive to be worth doing fleetwide. However, SMS does include replacement of flooring, which we should be seeing over the next few months.
David
This is incorrect. The next order (R143) will replace nothing, as the car fleet gets expanded. The next car class slated for retirement is the R38, then the R40's. However, all will be around for at least another 5-7 years. The R32's will probably celebrate their 50th birthday in some kind of service.
The "next" order I referred to is a 660-car order for the BMT and IND, which indeed will do what I said it would do: replace some R-32 and R-38, and most R-40 and R-42 cars. The R-143 is not the "next" order, as it's already on the way. The R-143 is, as Chris R-16 said, an addition to the fleet, not a replacement for anything. It's 212 cars.
David
Actually, the R32s will stay for a very long time. The R32GEs will be scrapped with the 660 car order. The R38s and R40s will also get scrapped. I think it's due to the water leakage problem. I'm not sure about the R42s. What else is probable? When the R143s arrive, they will all go on to the L Line. The remainder will go to the M Line. What the R143s replace on the on the M Line will go to the N Line. The N Line will give all to the Q Line, after it swaps again with the B Line. Now, under this plan, the Q will be extended onto the Queens Boulevard Line. So...
B - R40
L - R143
M - R40M/R42/R143
N - R32/R40/R40M/R42
Q - R68/R68A
I forgot where I read this.
This plan (which is also available at the JoeKorNer, visit the transfer station on this site) was before the B/Q switch occured, so it will most likely not be implemented the same way (the Q will probably get the R-42 from the East directly).
Actually, that order is slated to replace the R38 and R40. Not sure about the R42, as the R38 and R40 combined total nearly 600 cars alone. The R32 will outlive everything made after if up to the R44. Rust is a factor in the lifespans of the R38, R40 and R42, but not the R32 and the 75' cars.
And since this order has yet to be made and paid for, there isn't even a guarantee that it'll be made, given the budget defecits the system will face in the near future.
From the October 1999 version of the 2001-2004: MTA Capital Program Proposal, Page 25:
"The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate ridership growth."
I have nothing further, Your Honor :-)
David
Well, until they "show us the money", this statement is really only an expression of a desire to buy new cars. Given the budget defecits coming up, I won't be suprised if the purchase is postponed or it gets reduced.
One other note:
Subway rolling stock's lifespan will depend mainly on structural integrity, not mechanical reliability. All cars today are running at peak efficiency thanks to our hard-working transit workers. Since the R38, R40 and R42 have superstructures made of carbon steel, their lifespans are coming to and end, due to rust. The R32, thankfully, is 100% stainless steel and will last 15 years more, at least. The R44 and 46 are as well, and will probably be in service 20+ years more.
R32- Retired 2015
R38/R32GE Retired 2007
R40- Retired 2007-2010
R42- Retired 2007-2009
R44/46- Retired After 2015
R68- Possible future interior rebuild
R62- ?
Lincoln
Please correct me if i'm wrong
Exact dates aren't planned, it all depends on when new cars arrive to replace older cars. The R38, R40 and R42 will be gone within 10 years, according to the plans. The R32 will carry on, and the R44/46 will last through 2020.
they were just estimates
(The R38, R40 and R42 will be gone within 10 years, according to the plans. The R32 will carry on, and the R44/46 will last through 2020.)
What will be replaced by 2004?
As I have said, George Pataki is determined to do at least as much damage to New York City as Mario Cuomo did, if not more. After Cuomo left the state in debt and ruins, the MTA was forced to drop its plan to just buy a steady 200 cars per year, and instead went 12 years without any new cars after the arrival of the R68 in 1988.
After 2004, the MTA will be $25 billion in debt. That's $10 per annual mTA ride, and it may cost as much as $1.00 per ride to service it -- more if all $25 billion is to be paid by TA riders, not commuter rail riders. Obviously, the LIRR to GCT will be fininshed and the Second Avenue Subway abandoned, as planned. More than that, if we are in anything other than an exuberant boom, let alone a recession, new car orders will cease. We'll be lucky if maintenance doesn't cease.
My guess is no new cars for at least 16 years -- four more years than the post-Cuomo debacle. So what will be around in 2020, and what will have to last until 2030?
New cars WILL be bought. However, the state will finance them with bonds, increasing the debt even more. Remember, even in the depths of the fiscal crisis of the mid 70's, 600 new R46 cars were purchased.
It was 754 R-46 cars, and the contract (for 745 cars; Pullman provided 9 cars free of charge in exchange for changing the payment terms, later on) was signed in September 1972, well before the fiscal crisis began.
David
That's right, new cars will NOT be bought after 2004. We'll have another hiatus, like the one from 1988 to 2000, only longer, if the MTA goes $25 billion in debt as planned WITHOUT building the Second Avenue subway.
The question is, how bad will it be? Assume another spate of car buying like this one (say 1,500 cars) begins in 2020. What will the fleet and the ages be in 2019 and in 2024. Might this be a rational policy, if buying no cars allows the re-signaling to take place in these years, and part of the Second Avenue Subway to be finished?
[Assume another spate of car buying like this one (say 1,500
cars) begins in 2020. What will the fleet and the ages be in 2019 and in 2024. Might this be a rational policy, if buying no cars allows the re-signaling to take place in these years, and part of the Second Avenue Subway to be finished?]
I fear it wouldn't be too rational. Let's assume that the full complement of R-142's and R-143's are put into service. All of the Redbirds, R-38's, R-40(M)'s and R-42's are gone. In 2020, the fleet would contain 55+-year-old R-32's, and R-44's and R-46's that would be pushing the half-century mark. The R-62's and R-68(a)'s would be getting a bit long in the tooth, as old as the R-40's are today. Heck, even the R-142's and R-143's would be getting old enough that maintenance probably would be getting to be more of an issue.
Bottom line - going almost twenty years between car orders, given the age of the current fleet, sounds awfully risky to me. And that's assuming that there won't be any technological breakthroughs between now and 2020.
As long as the carbodies are in good shape, and as long as incremental overhauls (SMS) continue to be done, there's probably no reason for them NOT to last 50 years or more, easily. In the case of the Redbirds, the carbodies are not in good condition (in general). Almost all of the stainless steel carbodies are in good condition.
David
When was the last time a Slant R-40 ran on Queens Blvd?
During the early 1980's they ran for a very short time in GG service before going to the A Service.
I beg to differ.
The Slants did indeed run on the 'GG', with its inside route map in black instead of green, during the summer of 1977. The 'A' got them in fall 1977 in exchange for the R-10s that went to the 'GG'.
Last time I saw a Slant on an 'E' or 'F' was also around October 1977.
They ran on the 'A' from 1977-84, and began appearing on the 'B' in 1981. They would be a staple on that line until fall 1997 when they went to the 'Q' in exchange for the 68As. The 'AA/K' also had them sporadically until that line's demise in December 1988. They've had a semi-steady presence on the 'L' and 'N' since about fall 1986.
R-40s on the N are rare. There are mostly R-68s and R-32s.
Not that rare. About one in 5 N trains are R40's
Might have been one or two on the "N" during a G.O. a couple of months ago. Regular service? Probably around 1977. Big Papa Cool J also noted that there were some "GG" Slants in the early '80s.
Wayne
I could swear I saw a picture of a Slant R40 on the F sitting at Stillwell here on nycsubway.org.
I forgot exactly where it is, though.
You probably did. The Slants were originally put on the E and F lines, and they came equipped with E and F bulkhead signs only.
I started with the TA 11/79 and I've haven't heard about or seen one operating on the E or F.
Here is the picture I found,
it's a slant R40 F train at Stillwell next to a D.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r42/r42-4635.jpg
The F looks like it's in purple
John,
the question was:When was the last time a Slant R-40 ran on Queens Blvd? There is no dispute that they ran on the "F", Unless my memory is failing me they started on the "F". That's why I subconscously never liked 'em. (sorry Wayne) Because they replaced the R1-9's, the last REAL subway.
The slant R-40s were initially assigned to the E and F lines. I remember when they were brand new. We were at 34th St. and 6th Ave. when an F train pulled in, and believe it or not, I actually didn't notice the huge magenta F to the right of the storm door. My mother had to point it out to me; I had gotten used to looking for train markings above the storm door. My sister liked them, and she's not even a transit buff. A few weeks later, we took an F of slants from 34th to 42nd to appease her. Little did I know I would not ride on those cars again until that memorable CPW jaunt on an A train in March of 1978.
John,
the question was:When was the
last time a Slant R-40 ran on
Queens Blvd? There is no dispute that they ran
on the "F", Unless my memory is failing me they
started on the "F". That's why I
subconscously never liked 'em. (sorry Wayne)
Because they replaced the R1-9's, the last
REAL subway.
This photo had to be taken between 1971 and 1977. The front signs on both trains are original. The R40's pantograph gates have been fitted.
The R40 signs were changed when they went to the "A". The R42 signs were changed at GOH. Odd seeing a mid-4600s car on the "D" - at the time they were #4694-4807. The rest of the 4600s were assigned to the "A"/"AA"/"B".
wayne
Back in '97 I saw a full consist head to Jamaica yard, signed as an N. That same year I saw an R68 do the same, also signed as an N. Both were on the Jamaica bound local track at 71/Continental. Of course, you probably meant in service.
Sorry for the short notice folks, but I was thinking of taking a field trip down the West End line (from 36th St. to Coney Island) in order to get some recent photographs for the line-by-line guide. I would only go if the sun is out that evening (this coming Wednesday 5/31/00).
If anyone's interested in joining me, meet up at 5:15-5:20ish at the head end of the southbound Broad Street station (J/M/Z train).
-Dave
David,
Are you taking any other feild trips later in June and how do we tag along if we're outside NYC?
Marty.
> Are you taking any other feild trips later in June
Probably. I need to cover the Culver line as well for the line-by-line guide.
> and how do we tag along if we're outside NYC?
Well... that's your problem! Or you can wait till I put the pictures up on the site...
-Dave
I take it no one is interested in this? Don't blame you but I figured I'd get at least one taker. Anyway, if the sun is shining at 5:00pm I'll be going out there tonight to take some pictures.
-Dave
Can't join you, but you'll have good weather.
(Of course, I can't guarantee that since that announcement was not approved by our resident transit and weather together spokesperson ....)
--Mark
It's approved, Mark! Your forecast is as good as mine :-)
Wish I could make it, but I'll be at work until about 5PM today. And even the USAirways Shuttle couldn't get me there in time. (Though maybe I can get Tom Kaminski to zoom up here in Chopper 88 -- it's a Jetcopter capable of 125 knots -- though I don't know if it has the fuel capacity for a trip from Cambridge, MA to Brooklyn, NY.)
The good news is that I just got through to the Transit Museum, and made a reservation for the July 23rd Nostalgia Train. "The phone lines are open now" for members only.
The good news is that I just got through to the Transit Museum, and made a reservation for the July 23rd Nostalgia Train. "The phone lines are open now" for members only.
I'll be on that trip AND the July 9th one, too.
--Mark
Well, since no one said they were coming and I didn't see anyone waiting, I didn't wait very long at Broad St. I hope I didn't miss anyone who decided to come at the last minute.
My tour took me down the West End line stopping at: 9th Ave, Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, 50th St., 55th St., 62nd St., 71st St., 18th Ave., Bay Parkway. Unfortunately they've put up screens between the tracks all the way out to around 18th Ave. Blocks the view of the train on the other side. As for the sights, there wasn't anything unusual along the way. On the way back on the "N" I noticed the track screens have been taken down along the Sea Beach line so it might be time to go back out there for pictures. On the other hand the Sea Beach line stations are dire need of a sandblasting and painting.
In a week or so I'll plan another trip. One down the Culver and one out the J to fill in the blanks in the station-by-station guides...
-Dave
Does anybody know what cars were used in the movie "The Warriors"?
They looked messed up and which stations did they film in?
Mostly R27/R30s but other cartypes made cameo appearances.
Hoyt-Schermerhorn mostly, but other stations like Wyckoff, Myrtle-Broadway etc. were used for the elevated sequences.
wayne
Are there any of these still out on the road or are they in a scrapyard somewhere. If so, anyway of seeing them ?
Mostly scrapped, you can see 2 pairs in CI yd. from the F line near Avenue X heading south, and pair in Concorse yd. from the southbound platform of the 4 at Bedford pk. Blvd. There is also one at the transit museum. Most would agree that they were scrapped too early.
There are still three of the R27/30's out in Los Angeles. One of them is red, and is numbered "8401" on the exterior, but one can see "8 97" on the inside of one of the cab doors. The other two cars are blue/silver and are so heavily grafittied that number identification is not possible. There also was another red one numbered 8275, it was cut in half late 1999 but has completely vanished since. The trucks of that car are sitting by themselves in another part of the lot.
They are actually in the city of Glendale, at a Warner Bros. backlot. They are on the east side of the Los Angeles River, directly east of the Gene Autry Museum in Griffith Park.
If anyone wants pictures of them, let me know and I'd be happy to send them along.
New photos of the recent SIRT track walk, by Subtalker/Forgotten Fan Doug Douglass, are on this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
Which stations are the best for taking urban landscape pictures?
Queensboro Plaza(N,7), 46th Street(7) and Smith-9th Streets(F,G).
Chaohwa
Also, 167th Street(4) is a good place in early morning before 9AM with uptown and Yankee Stadium as backgrounds.
Chaohwa
....just would like to ask if anyone out there ever visited the largest electric railway museum in the western
united states in Peris California?? there is an extensive pacific electric railway collection & PCC trolley cars...
maybe some of you have been there . I think I am going to join them soon .....
i USED TO BE A MEMBER WHEN I LIVED IN LA FOR OVER 20 YEARS, GREAT PLACE, I THINK THAT YOU WOULD ENJOY IT.
.........question were you having a earthquake out there when you last posted ??...... by the way I was there last
weekend & your last post reminds me of someone trying to be heard above rush hour ....I understand ...
What line has the most abandonned stations and what part of town are they in?
Probably the originl IRT line, which has 3 local stops (Worth, 18th and 91st. Sts.) abandoned.
WORTH AND 18TH ARE ON THE 6 AND 91ST ON THE 1/9 2 DIFFERENT LINES, ALSO ADD CITY HALL ON THE 6
But he said "The original IRT line" which ran along Park Avenue South (4th Avenue) then 42 St., then upper Bway.
SUBWAY ONLY
Brooklyn:
Myrtle Ave. (D,Q)
Manhattan:
City Hall (6)
Worth Street (6)
18th Street (6)
91st Street (1)
There are also staions that are partially abandoned like Atlantic Ave (L) or Bowling Green (4,5)
I know I missed a few. Anyone want to fill them in?
Bronx:
E 180st (2, 5) former NY & W platforms, used briefly for the 5 shuttle sometime in the past).
Manhattan:
South Ferry (Inner Loop) (1/9 outer loop, off-peak 5 turns in inner loop)
Canal st. Bridge line station, temporarily closed (Transfer passage for N/R, 6, J/M/Z at Canal).
Chambers (J/M/Z) has a boatload of extra platforms
59st / Columbus (A/C,B/D), center platform
42st/8th ave lower level (Downtown A/C, E - E approaching from north switches off tracks to lower level)
City Hall lower level (N/R)
Brooklyn:
Myrtle Ave (J/Z, M - Extra el structure and station above existing station, tracks connect to M).
Hoyt-Schemerhorn (A/C, G), side platforms
Court st. - Transit Museum
Dean St. (Franklyn S)
Bergen st. (F, upper or lower level [forgot which])
Ditmas Av. (F, extra el structure for former Culver S)
9th ave lower level (B, Rush hr. M).
Brooklyn Bridge (4/5/6) - Southern platform extension w/gapfillers.
Honorable mentions:
Times Sq. 42st (S) Track 4 platform (used rush hr. only)
18st and 28st on PATH
I Forgot:
Queens:
Roosevelt ave (E/F,G/R) Upper level
Manhattan:
63rd / Lex (Q,B,S) behind the wall at the platform.
You also forgot ....
- Jerome/Andersen Avenues
- Sedgwick Ave
... both dating back to the 9th Ave El ...
--Mark
Henry, thanks for the info. Can we explore these or is that just looking for trouble?
As has often been posted before, it is not just looking for trouble, it is looking at JAIL. But sanctioned tours are offered from time to time through the Transit Museum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can see most of them from existing stations or trains.
The ones you can explore (actually walk around in) without problems:
1. Canal st. Bridge line station (it's a transfer passage).
2. 42st Shuttle track 4 platform, go during rush hour and you won't look like a lost tourist (all other times the track is unused, but some people think it is track 3 and run there when the next shuttle is announced to be on track 3. The track 3 platform is actually track 2.
3. Bergen st. other level, during special F G.O.s, don't know when these happen. I'd like to see it myself.
4. Court St. is the transit museum, has an R-1, R-4, R-7a, R-11, R-12, R-15, R-16, R-17, R-30, R-33 single, as well as BMT Triplexes and standards and a low-V. Most cars inoperational, though.
[18st and 28st on PATH ]
Aren't these completely destroyed by 6th Ave subway?
Arti
19th Street was abandoned in the 1950s, it was later destroyed for completely different reasons.
[re abandoned PATH station]
[19th Street was abandoned in the 1950s, it was later destroyed for completely different reasons.]
19th Street was not destroyed. What happened a few years ago was that electrical equipment was installed on the platforms, so there isn't too much to see. But the station's still there.
Mostly all of these are parts of existing stations. The original poster was asking about access to closed, abandoned stations. By the way, my favorite abandoned station is Woodhaven on the Bklyn LIRR. It is so dark there you have trouble seeing it even at the railfan window!!! And the trains are usually going very fast there!!!
Jeffrey, have you ever explored any of these?
No, the only time I was ever even in a tunnel between stations was a one day training session on the subway after the NYPD merged with transit.
5/31/2000
Omit the following;
Canal St. via bridge (N). Not abandoned. Will reopen after remodeling and completed bridge repairs.
City Hall lower level (N)(R). Not abandoned since it never was opened for passenger service.
Abandoned should mean closed for ever.
Bill "Newkirk"
In that case, the Roosevelt Ave. terminal should also be omitted, since it was never used for its intended purpose.
Why not take a look at our abandoned stations FAQ.
-dave
Sorry,I found out who took the pictures. My appologies Mark! If you or someone you know was there, I'd love to hear your story!
Thanks Marty.
Is there not a "subway Chat line" where we could all get togheter and chat away.That would be so cool!!
Just an idea.
The Webmaster is not interested in a chatroom.
Are you people deaf or just numb to your surroundings?
Every week I advertise the SubTalk Live Chat, information at http://subtalklive.cjb.net/.
You want a chat, yet you choose to ignore it when there is one.
I even posted a subscription box for a list that reminds you of the scheduled chat every Saturday.
"Yo yo yo in the house of sarcastic insults"!
I've just gotten on subtalk a couple of days ago and did not know about this chat you have.
Thanks for the info!!!!!
Marty.
Then I don't blame you, but there are people who are here for long times and are oblivious to goings on.
Cool man,
I hope to get on one of these days, I'm just now getting to know how this damn computer stuff works. It's really quite fun and interesting.I'll go back and check out the website you talked about. If there are any problemes I'll get back to you...
Marty.
You can try it off-peak (while there is no chat) to make sure it's working.
how dangerous is it to explore disused station.What can we expect to find and have any of you done it?
There was a l-o-n-g discussion about this sometime in the past two weeks on this board. Basically, DON'T DO IT!!!!! There is NO legal way to get into an abandoned station (unless the Transit Museum or some other sanctioned entity runs a tour), and it's an extremely dangerous thing to do on one's own.
David
Tuesday's Star-Ledger has a light rail FAQ article today.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/fa6b35.html
Bob
Yesterday my wife and I went to Smithhaven Mall in Lake Grove, LI. The Great Train Store had signs saying "EVERYTHING 30% OFF - STORE CLOSING". I stopped in looking for buses (there were none) and asked a clerk when is closing. They said that they don't know and weren't sure if it was June 1st. Based on inventory left, I doubt 6/1, 7/1 looks more likely.
I also asked if the Garden City (The Source Mall) store was closing and the clerk said "THE WHOLE CHAIN IS CLOSING" even California. I suggest getting to the nearest store ASAP for largest collection. They have some books and videos also.
Note: I am not associated with them in any way and am just passing along this piece of news to any S-T'er who is interested.
I went on Sunday at Garden City and the inventory is still full execpt for N scale trains and tracks. Sorry to see them go. They had
a nice collection of trains and books.
In the words of Joey Styles:
"OHH MYYYY GAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWDDD!!!"
The Great Train Store in Union Station, Washington, D.C. is also closing. The clerk says it will close in two weeks.
Sad to see them go. It is a fixture in Union Station.
Chaohwa
I love the Great Train Store in Union Station. Maybe I will drop in one last time June 12 and/or 17.
Are you a Washingtonian as well, Chao-Hwa?
I live in Silver Spring, MD now. I don't know whether I can say myself a Washingtonian, but I indeed grew up in the Bronx.
Be sure to visit the GTS as soon as you can. It's easy for you to ride Red line to Union Station. I have to drive 9 plus miles to go to Union Station.
Chaohwa
I'm in Chevy Chase. Why is it so hard for you? Isn't Silver Spring Station closer to Union than Friendsip Heights?
Silver Spring Station is indeed closer than Friendship Heights, but I still have to drive 10 minutes to Silver Spring Station.
Also, it still takes some time to get off my car, and wait for a Red line train. Therefore, I always drive to Union Station.
Chaohwa
ARE YOU GUYS SURE that the GTS will close. I was in the one at Union Station in St Louis and The guy there never mentioned it. Anyway I found them to be kind of expensive compared to a few in NYC
Yes, indeed. The GTS in DC has the clearance sale right now.
Chaohwa
The chain is in bankruptcy. While most stores in their situation would try and restructure, they apparently decided to close since the long-term outlook wasn't very good either. The hobby industry is going through one of its down cycles right now and no one's doing incredibly well - without meaning to sound happy at their demise, since it is a symptom of the general malaise in the industry, they are competition of sorts for the store in North Carolina in which I have an interest and their departure will mean that we get a few more customers, hopefully ones who will discover that our shop not only sells trains, it knows trains, and who will then become loyal customers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The chain is in bankruptcy. While most stores in their situation would try and restructure, they apparently decided to close since the long-term outlook wasn't very good either. The hobby industry is going through one of its down cycles right now and no one's doing incredibly well]
I'm really not surprised that interest in things rail-related is diminishing. Outside of a small number of urban areas, it's likely that most people under age 50 have never ridden on a train, assuming you don't count the Disney World monorail.
[Yesterday my wife and I went to Smithhaven Mall in Lake Grove, LI. The Great Train Store had signs saying "EVERYTHING 30% OFF - STORE CLOSING". I stopped in looking for buses (there were none) and asked a clerk when is closing. They said that they don't know and weren't sure if it was June 1st. Based on inventory left, I doubt 6/1, 7/1 looks more likely.
I also asked if the Garden City (The Source Mall) store was closing and the clerk said "THE WHOLE CHAIN IS CLOSING" even California. I suggest getting to the nearest store ASAP for largest collection. They have some books and videos also.]
I noticed the "store closing" sign at the Smithhaven store about two weeks ago. What I didn't realize until a few days ago was that it was the whole chain that's going belly-up. At any rate, I can't say I'm terribly surprised. They had quite a selection of railfan videos, but yikes, they were awfully overpriced.
I agree abou the overpricing.
I think they might have gotten a more steady flow of repeat customers, and perhaps stayed in business, if they didn't jack up some prices ABOVE normal retail. One of their stores priced books at more than their normal retail price -- and when the manager was alerted to this fact, within a few days, removed all the printed prices on the inside of book jackets!!
Not very good business ethics in my opinion.
The price of gasoline is rising again. So is the whining.
It is hard to believe that in a country where survey show most people are environmentalists, suburbanites (not just rural people who actually need them) buy and use these things. And complain that the price of gasoline costs them too much money. They again, if you are going to blame the tobacco industry for the fact that you smoke...
The unfortunate thing is the price of oil rises for everyone, not just those in SUV's. Those heating their homes, and doing so efficiently, got nailed in the winter. Those driving Saturns will get nailed this summer.
Yes not everyone lives near mass transit. But as incomes have risen, the number of people carpooling has collapsed.
[The price of gasoline is rising again. So is the whining.
It is hard to believe that in a country where survey show most people are environmentalists, suburbanites (not just rural people who actually need them) buy and use these things. And complain that the price of gasoline costs them too much money. They again, if you are going to blame the tobacco industry for the fact that you smoke...]
Not all SUV's are hulking monsters than get 10 mpg. Some of them, indeed, are quite small and compare favorably with many cars in terms of fuel efficiency.
If you think gas is expensive
Here's something to think about...
Diet Snapple 16oz for $1.29 = $ 10.32 per gallon
Lipton Ice Tea 16oz for $1.19 = $ 9.52 per gallon
Gatorade 20oz for $1.59 = $ 10.17 per gallon
Ocean Spray 16oz for $1.25 = $ 10.00 per gallon
Pint of milk 16oz for $1.59 = $ 12.72 per gallon
STP Brake Fluid 12oz for $3.15 = $ 33.60 per gallon
Vick's Nyquil 6oz for $8.35 = $178.13 per gallon
Pepto Bismol 4oz for $3.85 = $123.20 per gallon
Whiteout 0.7oz for $1.39 = $254.17 per gallon
Scope 1.5oz for $0.99 = $ 84.48 per gallon
Visine 0.6oz for $3.59 = $765.85 per gallon
Evian water 9 oz for $1.49 = $ 21.19 per gallon
So next time you're at the pump,
be glad your car doesn't run on
Nyquil, Visine, or Whiteout !!!!
I'm tired of all these 'environmentalists' whining about how bad SUVs are. Consumers are buying them for the simple reason that they like them, which in a free market economy is reason enough. They afford better protection for the occupants and offer the roomy interiors desired by families. If you buy one then you accept the fact that you will be spending more to fill it up. I know they supposedly cause more injuries to others in accidents but that is an unfortunate law of physics. Heavy vehicles inflict more damage to lighter vehicles, a bus, truck or van will do serious damage to the standard sedan. So let's ban them and all drive around in tiny cramped cars? And what's their next campaign going to be against - all cars with V6 or V8 engines, all cars over a certain size. It seems that liberals and environmentalists don't like anything that Americans enjoy.
Liberals and environmentalists whine about everybody buying SUV's and then complaining about the price of gas.
Im a liberal and I like the small and mid size vehicles like the Explorer and Honda CR-V. The problem is not the car itself, its the driver. Better driver means less accidents and lower insurence rates.
Drivers ed is what counts not the vehicle size. Commercial drivers needs to pass tests and go through extensive training. A truck can disintergrate a Ford Expidition. Again its the driver not the vehicle. Same for LRVs.
How about all the accidents that are caused by SUV's parked close to a corner and people pulling out when there is a car coming because they don't see 'em. Also SUV's roll over much easier than cars. Another pet peeve of mine is SUV and pickups being considered private cars and driving on the parkways and parking on the driveways on residential streets at night. If you drive a truck you should follow truck's rules!!! No trucks should be allowed on the parkway, PERIOD. (this post null and void if I ever buy a truck)
Also, many of the narrow streets common on the outer boroughs become nearly impassible when two SUVs are parked at the curb opposite each other. If it's a two-way street, one approaching car has to wait for the other to pass. All too often neither driver wants to wait, and a shouting match starts.
I love when I read people's reasons for buying an SUV. One guy bragged in the DAILY NEWS that it enables him to "bully other drivers." Other people claim that an SUV offers protection in an accident; the other, smaller vehicle gets demolished but theirs doesn't!
Maybe if they drove safer, there wouldn't BE so many accidents!
I often see the arrogance displayed by SUV owners on the road (changing lanes without signalling; refusing to let a signalling motorist into their lane; completely ignoring lights and stop signs; honking furiously at the car in front that does observe them; zooming up in the EZ Pass lane and cutting over into the manned lane at the last second) and in parking lots (taking up two spots; taking the handicapped spot when there's a regular one nearby; parking CROSSWISE over three or four spaces). Pedestrians are often treated with equal contempt.
I've always loved the commercials that show all the great reasons for buying them. How else can we get over all the mountains? And remember the Ford Explorer or Expedition commercial where the father takes his daughter IN PERSON to see the tall ships---at the South Street Seaport? I hadn't realized before that one needed a SUV to drive into Manhattan.
The worst of the SUV commercials remind me of the early soda commercials for no-deposit no return vehicles, which featured a couple of folks drinking Coke fishing at the like -- and just throwing the can into the lake when they were done.
Jeff, that's a good point.
I've encountered many dangerous intersections due to vans or trucks parked at the curb near intersections.
This situation was so bad in my neighborhood, that I once toyed with the idea of writing my Councilperson/Congressman about investigating passing a law where there'd be a fine on vans and trucks (w/o glass panels) parked within 50 feet of intersections.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't they usually have "No Standing" signs there.
Arti
No. That usually applies to houses of worship or a business of some kind that requires space for loading/unloading of goods.
Doug aka BMTman
I don't mind liberals and environmentalists, free marketeers, or people who drive SUVs. I do mind people who yell about the free market when they buy their SUV, claim to be liberal environmentalists, then demand government intervention to push down the price of gas.
Some claim the conservative view is you are free to make your choices, but don't expect others to pay to mitigate the consequences. Perhaps a better description is the affluent are free to make their choices, but should not be required to pay to mitigate the consequences of others, or to suffer consequences themselves.
[So let's ban them and all drive around in tiny cramped cars? And what's their next campaign going to be against - all cars with V6 or V8 engines, all cars over a certain size. It seems that liberals and environmentalists don't like anything that Americans enjoy.]
Banning anything is not the answer and goes against our free-market economy. However, having SUV's reclassified as trucks -- which in reality there are -- is the answer. By shear weight and size (including height above cars) they should be considered trucks.
Doug aka BMTman
According to the government, they ARE trucks - they're not subject to the same safety standards, fuel economy standards, or bumper height standards as passenger cars. If they were classified as passenger cars, which based on their normal pattern of usage they should be, they would have to meet much tougher standards - which would benefit both their drivers and the drivers of other vehicles as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given how dangerous they are to those in cars, I think you shouldn't be able to drive one unless you have a license to operate a truck.
Wonder what GM would think of that idea :)
[According to the government, they ARE trucks - they're not subject to the same safety standards, fuel economy standards, or bumper height standards as passenger cars. If they were classified as passenger cars, which based on their normal pattern of usage they should be, they would have to meet much tougher standards - which would benefit both their drivers and the drivers of other vehicles as well.]
Yet they're allowed on the parkways!!! Robt Moses must be turning over in his grave!!!
[Yet they're allowed on the parkways!!! ]
Isn't this a matter of a commercial plate?
Arti
A new law says that pickup trucks without caps will now be able to get passenger plates, which is wrong because no matter how DMV classifies them, they are still trucks. And on Long Island alot of the parkway entrances have signs that say "no trucks".
Here in the city it's mostly "No Commercial Traffic"
Arti
Actually, there are plenty of PASSENGER CARS ONLY signs.
So what does that mean? If you have something in the trunk you're not allowed on the parkway? Are parkways car pool only? Is a truck allowed to be on a parkway if it's empty and carrying nothing but passengers?
My guess would be that a passanger car is one without commercial plates + livery plates + taxi plates.
Arti
How can they justify banning taxis from the parkways? Its just a slap to those without cars who have to take them occasionally.
[How can they justify banning taxis from the parkways? ]
Huh? They don't. Neither did I say that.
Arti
But how do you define a truck? In some jurisdictions it means a vehicle that requires a commercial license to operate (over 18,000 lbs. gross weight) which means that a 26' U-Haul is not a truck. In other jurisdictions it is defined as 7500 lbs., or 8000 lbs., or some such other weight - which eliminates the big trucks but not the pickups or the SUVs. In still other places it is determined by the kind of license plates it carries. My late New Jersey neighbor owned a Ford F-350 crew cab, long wheel base pickup which was his and his wife's only vehicle. They towed their fifth-wheel trailer south for the winter with it, but otherwise it was just the two of them, tooling around town in it - it was their only vehicle. My grandfather was the same way - for many years his only vehicle was a pickup truck with a cap on the back because it was the only thing my grandmother could get in and out of without significant difficulty. After she passed away he bought a station wagon, and he drove a succession of small wagons for the remainder of his life.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi Anon,
Even though I'm sick of SUVs - I never meant that they should be outright banned. You've given excellent examples of folks that have legitimate use for them.
My point it that there are far too many of them owned by folks who don't have the needs for them that you've mentioned. You probably know who I'm talking about - the corporate brats who own SUVs because it's their BIG VEHICLE - read - I'm bigger and better than the next guy. It's amazing how often I see tiny little ladies hop out of those monster rigs - still babbling on the cell phone in hand - and parked in two spaces because it's very important that HER vehicle doesn't risk a scratch.
I think you know the type I'm talking about as you probably find yourself irritated by the same types on your way to and from work.
The newest SUVs are probably half again the height of your minivan and when you're in busy traffic - they're a menace as you can't see around them - and may have no idea of a panic stop ahead - until it's too late.
[My point it that there are far too many of them owned by folks who don't have the needs for them that you've mentioned. ]
There's no NEED to eat veal tartar either.
Arti
Talk about whining - some people don't much care about the environment they create by the way they live. They don't care if;
- their vehicle causes more pollution for their and our children to breath.
- their vehicle stands too high ruining visibility for following vehicles making it dangerous to safely drive behind.
- their vehicle is too hard to stop or maneuver quickly in an emergency.
People who live their lives this way seem to have a basic hooray for me and the h-ll with you attitude.
If I disagree and don't share their attitudes - they explain it away by branding me a liberal or environmentalist.
Well - if it weren't for liberals - you might not have environmentalists. And without environmentalists - we'd have cars without any pollution controls - causing more cancer, heart disease and asthma, a tourism industry in ruins due to polluted waterways and garbage fouled woods and beaches, unregulated dumping causing more illness and environmentally caused diseases, no systems of parks or recreational areas.
I wouldn't like to see the above. We deserve better and our children deserve better. So if that makes me a liberal - I'll be proud to call myself one.
Lots of people who don't get their own way want to blame liberals and suggest that liberals and communists have the same agenda. Now - if you think being a liberal makes me a communist - then go look at how the former communist countries are coping with widespread pollution. In their own idiotic ways, they have destroyed huge portions of their environments and suffer for it. Look at the Danube - a dead river. How about Chernobyl? If you think ignoring environmental impact is the right way to go - then you are in lock step with the former communist parties of Russia and Hungary.
Ever heard of Teddy Roosevelt?? Was he a liberal and an environmentalist? It just so happens that because of TR and others like him - we have a national parks program that every American can be proud of.
So if you have a problem with environmentalists and liberals - then go where neither exist. Today - that would be the PRC (Peoples Republic of China) where not a sole is even allowed to worry or voice concern about the environment. And that government surely does not tolerate liberals.
[Look at the Danube - a dead river. How about Chernobyl? If you think ignoring environmental impact is the right way to go - then you are in lock step with the former communist parties of Russia and Hungary. ]
EE pollution has nothing to do with ideology. As they were running poor and ineficient economies enviromentalism was just not affordable. That applies to any poor economy. BTW Danube was and is polluted by Romania.
Arti
Hey! Not all liberal environmentalists want to get rid of SUV's. I myself think that we should attack the problem from the other end and plant more trees to suck up all the CO2 from the SUV's.
Hey! Not all liberal environmentalists want to get rid of SUV's. I myself think that we should attack the problem from the other end and plant more trees to suck up all the CO2 from the SUV's.
The ratio of tree area-to-SUV needed to prevent a net gain in CO2 is on the order of acres per vehicle. And trees won't do much for NO2, SO2, ground-level O3, or any of the other chemicals that form smog.
Their are pollution solutions for SUVs: hybrids in the near term, and fuel cells in the next decade. Further down the road there is PRT.
Something will need to be done, however. Auto emmissions are no longer an abstract environmental issue; they have become a public health issue in many parts of the world. Last year, more people in Canada died from air pollution than died from cancer. I don't have the statistics for the US, but I imagine they are similar.
CH.
What is PRT?
Arti
Personal Rapid Transit.
What's Personal Rapid Transit.
Arti
You get your own car and it goes nonstop to the destination station.
You share the car with other people if they're travelling at the same time between the same two places.
Among other things, it stands for Philadelphia Rapid Transit, which was the name of Philadelphia's transit company at one time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is PRT?
Personal Rapid Transit. Automated taxi-like monorail/maglev vehicles which carry passengers on-demand from point to point without making any intermediate stops. If properly implemented, PRT would be much faster than cars or conventional public transport.
For more information, look at Rick Komerska's PRT page on Prof. Jerry Schneider's innovative transportation technologies site.
CH
Thanks.
Arti
I don't think that anyone should wine about reducing SO2 or NOX. Unlike CO2 and fuel efficiency reducing these won't mean light weight econo-boxes or less engine power. Often you just need a few hi-tech gagets or cleaner gasoline.
The first thing we can do to solve the SUV problem is to force all SUV's onto the trucks only lanes of the NJ Turnpike.
Consumers may like them now, but I will bet anyone money that the concept of the SUV will not stick around for more than seven or eight more years. I think the pessimistic view that people should abandon smaller vehicles in favor of gas-guzzling behemoths. I would much rather live in Europe where the cars are the size of soap boxes and get 55 mpg than a land of monsters. I saw the new Ford Excursion today and it was bigger and higher than a commercial Econoline van! Oftentimes I see these 100-pound ladies climbing into these blimps of vehicles. Can a rational person really say this is neccisary? And I hate those commercials that show an SUV trudging though the snow or climbing a mountain ridge on a rock trail. Come on, the only thing people use those for is going down to the claners or down the freeway.
-Daniel
[Oftentimes I see these 100-pound ladies climbing into these blimps of vehicles.]
Isn't it amazing - the smaller the woman - the biger the SUV?? And how about those cell phones? Isn't that a required piece of equipment with the SUV? And aren't all the SUV drivers supposed to BE ON THE CELL PHONE while driving?
And by the way - is there some rule that if one owns an SUV, they must drive the left lane at a slower speed than all other traffic in the middle and right lanes? And aren't they supposed to be sitting in that left lane with the left blinker on - never making a left turn and oblivious to all those around them?
How about the SUV that comes with a TV set built into the dash and/or the back headrest for the rear-seat passengers? The "creature comforts" are getting ridiculous nowadays...
Doug aka BMTman
What I don't like is the male ego commercials. They imply that if you aren't driving an SUV (or, in another variation, one of those marquee lines like Lexus or BMW), you better get a Viagra perscription.
If all the car companies weren't in on the scam, and thus reluctant to expose it, I'd like to see a commercial with two families at a campsite -- a decent family guy in a mid-sized station wagon and having a laid back blast, and a real jerk in an SUV who spends most of his time checking his hair in the vehicle mirror.
I do like the Guiness commercial showing the mystical side of rail transit, however, although I dislike opera.
Yeah, I almost forgot about that really neat Guiness Commercial on that CGI created Interurban train.
Doug aka BMTman
There's a commerical which shows a castle battlement with people on it and then the camera pulls away and it's a chess board with people playing chess and it's inside a train...tgv and the camera keeps pulling away as a car is coming up and passing this train the train is heading into a station which a father is picking up the station and showing it to his son which is a model train the camera shows the car outside this house going down the road....quite impressive...mostly shown on the history channel.
Karl -
I tried to email you some info related to your Pittsburgh/Fineview post of Tue May 30 15:26:58 2000, but the email was returned undeliverable. It's too long to post.
email me.
Bob
I remember a car commercial earlier this month on TV where people were on a crowded subway train (looked like an R32), and they showed one of them dreaming of driving the car driving on the road beside the tracks, and then they woke up as the car passed the train. These car commercials are getting bad for our society, discouraging the more efficient choice (mass transit) and encouraging
individual luxury. Just a symbol of our increasingly selfish society I guess.
Roman society became more selfish 2000 years ago.
[If all the car companies weren't in on the scam, and thus reluctant to expose it]
You mean ad agencys?
Arti
Guess what - they can't sell that add-on in Maryland!! We still have the rule that a motor vehicle cannot have a televsion set that can bee viewed by the driver. And, it's enforced!! A limo company customized one of their stretch Lincolns with one and promptly had the limo's tags impounded and a repair order issued. The tags were not returned until the MVA and the State Police were satisfied. The TV was removed from the dash.
.........I know I am in trouble now ...!! my car has a tv under the dash........IN FRONT ......!!!!!
I even shoot vidieo out of my car mounted at the top of the dashboard ... with my sony trv66 handycam with the lcd screen.....open while shooting ......I am in trouble man ..!!
( the same winning technique I use when shooting subway vidieos )..........
05/30/2000
Salaam,
I don't think you're in any trouble.........unless you move to Maryland !!
Bill "Newkirk"
.......I was just joking !!!!..Also - isnt maryland one of those driving while black states ?? !! actually i have a 2"5"" inch lcd TV that takes its power from the cigarette lighter ........
I get my power to my sony trv 66 dashboard cam .......... the results looks like COPS TV show except no high speed chases...
two of my vidieos I shot while driving cross country from pasadena ca to detroit mi .....
my last vidieo includes our last cross country drive all the way to new york and back !!! the vidieo came out nice & clear
I have sold several copies of it already with some john coltraine music added to the mix ........
About 4 years ago I rode on the whole Skyline Drive and part of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Shenandoah Nat'l Park on my Harley with my wife on the back with the camcorder. So now I have a great 3 hr video of the back of my helmet with Harley sounds!! No, just kidding, it actually came out quite good. The second best video I made was at the Main St RR crossing by Nassau Tower last year with my 3 yr old son narrating all the M1-3's, old diesals, and new tri-levels going by!!!
......thats great officer rosen ...... If I was there I would mount the camcorder to your harley with my 06 wide angle
lens or ""fish eye"" 0.42 .......the view would be awesome..... like I get shooting across my front hood with my
trv66 shooting foward while driving around town or cross country ..
I use this same method when shooting transit systems & nature outdoor desert vidieotrography as well ....
I hope he does.
And I hope that TV in the car is his sole method of accessing the internet.
[Isn't it amazing - the smaller the woman - the biger the SUV?? And how about those cell phones? Isn't that a required piece of
equipment with the SUV? And aren't all the SUV drivers supposed to BE ON THE CELL PHONE while driving? ]
That can apply to their husbands (and boyfriends) too. The smaller the woman, the bigger her husband. As a small man looking for a small woman, I feel it!
And here in Northern Nassau, the materialistic SUV driving woman is representative of the many annoying customers found at the Greenvale Pathmark. (learn more about it at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove)
And I never see them taking the train either. LIRR OB line parking lots are filled with mid-priced vehicles. However you see more Luxury SUV's parked at stations on the PW branch at Great Neck.
These must be the people leaving papers and coffee cups whenever I'm on PW branch trains.
The OB trains may take a little longer, but they are fairly clean.
NOW they are, but last year you couldn't even see outta their windows!!! (but I still liked those 'ol trains better)
Not only are they supposed to be holding their cell phones in one hand, they're required to have a Starbucks' cup in the other!
In fact SUV sales may be near a peak, but again that's for the market to decide. Europeans also drive some heavyweight cars - BMW, Audi, MercedesBenz, Range Rover to name a few. Check out some Euro car manufacturers websites, they are producing, or importing from North America larger vehicles.
For example, from Chrysler-Jeep in Italy - http://www.chryslersyncro.com/gamma/main.htm?grand_cherokee
And Italy is a country where gasoline costs over $5 per gallon.
Let's not forget the showoff's favorite SUV the MASSIVE HumVee (Hummer). Those things look as out of place in the city as a cowboy on horseback on Park Ave.
There is one HumVee that I often see parked on one of the streets in Brooklyn Heights (it's white w/green roof). It serves NO purpose on the streets of NYC. Now, if you live in Vermont, New Hampshire, or Oregon it would make some sense.
Doug aka BMTman
Oh man, you can't see around those things.
Great benifit of a Harley - when I'm stuck in traffic - I can stand up and look right into/through most SUVs. Really pisses SUV owners off too.
But Hummers? 99% of the time, they get on the highway, go right to the left hand lane, and plop along at the 70 or so those things max out at.
Too slow to follow, too fast to pass easily.
As annoying as old ladies doing 35 in the mddle or left lane...
[Let's not forget the showoff's favorite SUV the MASSIVE HumVee (Hummer). Those things look as out of place in the city as a cowboy on horseback on Park Ave.
There is one HumVee that I often see parked on one of the streets in Brooklyn Heights (it's white w/green roof). It serves NO purpose on the streets of NYC. Now, if you live in Vermont, New Hampshire, or Oregon it would make some sense.]
Humvees may be a little over-the-top for most people, but they're sold in very limited numbers and have been anything but a success. AM General deliberately tried marketing them to people looking for the ultimate macho vehicle. What the company discovered is that there are fewer people in search of the ultimate macho vehicle than one might be led to expect. Most likely, Humvees wouldn't be made at all if they were purpose-built rather than merely conversions of military vehicles. I believe that AM General is now trying to market them toward buyers who really need their capabilities, such as utility and pipeline companies.
Getting back to the broader SUV issue, it has to be mentioned that Humvees (or Excursions or even Suburbans) are not typical examples of the vehicle type. Ford Explorers are by quite some margin the best-selling SUVs, followed (IIRC) by Jeep Grand Cherokees and Chevy Blazers/GMC Jimmies. None of these are huge hulking vehicles on the prowl for econoboxes to crush. In fact, most of them probably don't weigh any more than typical sedans in the pre-OPEC era. And some SUVs (Honda CRV's, Kia Sportages, Suzuki Vitaras/Chevy Trackers) weigh no more than average passenger vehicles *today*. Yes, there are some huge SUVs, such as the aforementioned Excursions and Suburbans, and the somewhat smaller Expeditions, Tahoes, and Monteros, but they're only a relatively small minority of all SUVs. In any event, we're jumping to conclusions by saying that people buy big SUVs for the macho image. Some people actually need these vehicles' capabilities, especially for trailer towing. You can't haul too much with an econobox.
Finally, with regard to the safety issue, I get a feeling of deja vu all over again. Back when subcompacts first became popular after the 1973 oil crisis, there was a big scare about their poor crashworthiness. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety ran some well-publicized tests in which subcompacts were smashed head-on into full sized vehicles made by the same manufacturers. I was too young to drive then, but I eagerly devoured the auto magazines, so I remember these tests quite well. One that really stuck in my mind was the matchup between a Chevy Vega and a Chevy Caprice. After an impact at about 40 mph, the Caprice would have been driveable but for a holed radiator, while the Vega's front end was smashed in all the way back to the windshield (with the engine block ending up in the passenger compartment).
Reminds me of an accident I was in about 20 years ago - I was broadsided in my '68 Caprice Estate by a woman who ran a red light at about 50 mph - direct hit to the left "A" pillar (left front fender/driver's door juncture). Although the front of the Caprice was badly damaged, I was able to move it out of the intersection under its own power and about a half mile back to my office. The '71 Corona wagon that hit me had to be loaded onto TWO flatbeds using a front-end loader.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The real problem with SUVs crashing into cars is not weight, in particular. Its the high bumpers and frames. Ostensibly its for cleareance. But even out here in CO, I'd say 1% of SUV's AT MOST ever leave a road I would go down in a station wagon. So why do they keep them so high? I guess they think that people feel better up there - either safer or more macho, I guess.
But they are not any safer. They'll do better in a collision with another vehicle. But SUVs end up being no safer to drive because they roll easily.
[The real problem with SUVs crashing into cars is not weight, in particular. Its the high bumpers and frames. Ostensibly its for
cleareance. But even out here in CO, I'd say 1% of SUV's AT MOST ever leave a road I would go down in a station wagon. So why do they keep them so high? I guess they think that people feel better up there - either safer or more macho, I guess.]
No one seems to complain about vans and pickups, even though they have the same higher bumper and frame profile as SUVs. Could it be because these vehicles aren't associated with the affluent suburban lifestyle as SUVs are? I certainly think so.
I also question whether these anecdotes about bad SUV drivers have any basis in fact. Anecdotes aren't the same thing as statistics.
[But they are not any safer. They'll do better in a collision with another vehicle. But SUVs end up being no safer to drive because they roll easily.]
In reality, the rollover risk for SUVs has been exaggerated. It's basically only the smallest models that have a significantly higher risk. SUVs may seem "tippy," but once again impressions don't always match reality.
One more thing - even if SUVs *do* have a greater rollover risk, that wouldn't cancel their safety advantages. Rollovers are no laughing matter, of course, but they seldom are fatal except for unrestrained occupants or very high speeds. On the other hand, the high seating profile in SUVs clearly does offer better occupant protection in side-impact collisions - the deadliest crashes of all.
Actually, vans have lower bumpers than SUVs. They are also less common.
I guess I have expect to die (or have my children die) for my environmental principles in a 40 mile per hour crash. I can take solace in the fact that the size of the Saturn I drive is more than balanced by how frequently I drive it.
But here in Brooklyn, an SUV presents a more unaccepable risk. With 2-3 story buildings right up to the lot line, and cars parked on the street right up the corner, it is very hard to see who is coming sideways while going through an intersection. Thus, fender-benders are common, though high speed crashes are not. But a bumper coming through a window at 10-15 mph can kill a child. SUV bumpers will go right over the Saturn's side impact panels. A big heavy car (or van) will just push the whole car around.
[I guess I have expect to die (or have my children die) for my environmental principles in a 40 mile per hour crash. I can take
solace in the fact that the size of the Saturn I drive is more than balanced by how frequently I drive it.]
I think you're worrying a bit too much. SUV's are safer than regular cars, that much is true, but the difference is not earth-shattering. Besides, Saturns are among the safer cars, with their "space frame" construction.
If you want a reasonable compromise between environmental responsibility and safety, why not a minivan? They have a high seating position for safety (not to mention excellent visibility), yet their more carlike construction makes them less of a threat to other vehicles and allows for decent fuel economy. We have a 1993 Dodge Caravan, and I find it a pleasure to drive. Plus, you can get decent prices on some minivan models (mainly because everyone wants SUV's).
Their more carlike construction makes them less of a threat to other vehicles and allows for decent fuel economy.
How true. The bumpers on our '96 Windstar - rated at the top of the scale in terms of safety - are at the same height as all three of our other cars - '92 Thunderbird, '93 Sable, and '94 Mustang. The drivetrain and front suspension on the Windstar are almost identical to those on the Sable and the handling characteristics are quite similar.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
You are certainly a good advertisement for the Ford Motor Co! :-)
Well, I've driven their products many, many miles - a couple of them well over 200,000 miles with little more than routine maintenance. Our current fleet runs from 83K to 106K and only one has required major repairs (we had to have the engine rebuilt on the '94 Mustang earlier this year after my wife ignored the temperature gauge). All are in excellent mechanical condition, and the T-Bird is the only one with body problems (our older son has been in two accidents with it). My parents also have an '87 Crown Victoria that is now approaching the 200K mark. But I've also had reasonable luck with Chrysler (a '63 Dodge wagon that I sold at 366K ran to 408K) and GM (we sold our '79 Bonneville with 153K, it had about 180K on it the last time I saw it). On the other hand, I've had some bad luck with Chrysler and GM as well ('82 Reliant wagon - great when it ran, which wasn't often - and a '70 Catalina that leaked 90W by the gallon), and also with our only Japanese car (a '75 Honda that was ready for the junkyard at 65K). So it's probably a safe bet that our next car will be a Ford product as well. (Know anyone with a nice clean '60 Edsel Ranger wagon for sale? No? How about a '58 Bermuda or a '59 Villager? Nine passenger models preferred but will consider a six passenger if the condition is right. Also looking for an Edsel convertible, nice original or restored, that I can afford.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Know anyone with a nice clean '60 Edsel Ranger wagon for sale? No?
How about a '58 Bermuda or a '59 Villager? Nine passenger models preferred but will consider a six passenger if the condition is right. Also looking for an Edsel convertible, nice original or restored,
that I can afford.]
A house not too far from me in Suffolk County has an Edsel sitting in the yard, in what looks like reasonably decent shape. I don't know enough about the models to identify it any better. We go by there at least once a week, as it's on the way to the Smithhaven Mall. Next time I go that way, I'll look for a "for sale" sign and write down the number if there's one.
You sure do put a lot of miles on your vehicles!
We have a craft space at a KKOA car show in a little more than a week, and there will be hundreds of collectible cars there. I'll have to watch for any Edsels. I'll let you know if I see any Bermudas or Villagers, but if I find a Citation I'll probably try to get it for myself.
[The bumpers on our '96 Windstar - rated at the top of the scale in terms of safety - are at the same height as all three of our other cars - '92 Thunderbird, '93 Sable, and '94 Mustang. The drivetrain and front suspension on the Windstar are almost identical to those on the Sable and the handling characteristics are quite similar.]
How do you like your Windstar? My wife and I probably will be in the car market within a few months, and we've been doing some online price checking. We'd really like an SUV, but the prices are through the ceiling. The Windstars seem like a possible alternative.
I love it! It's a '96 LX that I bought new in February '97 (after the '98 models had already come out) so it's got everything on it. We've put over 83K on it so far and the only problem (since warranty) has been a failed power window motor. I see no reason why I won't be able to drive it past the 200K mark with only normal maintenance. I purchased it because of the ease of entry/exit, important to me when my arthritis is acting up, although the hauling capacity has come in handy with college students in the family as well.
There is at least one other SubTalker out here with very positive Windstar experience as well - he just traded his '98 for a 2000 model.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I do complain about pickups. Most pickups get used to carry big stuff around about as often as most SUVs go off road. But most people do not consider what I have to say complaining - more like ranting and raving.
And small pickups are the most dangerous cars _for their occupants_, according to what I have read.
My impression of SUVs, and their propensity to actually go off road, comes from doing a lot of mountain biking in the foothills of the mountains out here. If there is any place people are going to take their vehicles off road, it would be in this area. And you see very few of them off road, whereas you see HUNDREDS of them on the pavement here in town. It's simple statistics. The vast majority never leave pavement.
What I have read contradicts your last paragraph about overall safety. I'll never find the article that said that rollover fatalities approximately make up for the safety advantage SUVs have in crashes with cars - it was in the Times quite a while back. Of course, some of that advantage does come from the fact that an SUV rides up on a car in a collision. So it is a safety advantage at the expense of those in a car.
Here's one thing I found about rollovers which at least confirms that it is a real problem in SUVs:
"More than 60 percent of the SUV occupants killed in 1998 died in crashes where the vehicle rolled over. "
Thats from an AP story that was in the denver post on tuesday (5/30). Automakers are trying to build automatic stability systems to help with this problem, but it is remains to be seen if that will help much.
I agree that it is the smaller SUVs that (seemingly should) account for most of the rollovers. But it is the larger SUVs that are so deadly when they hit other cars. Those high bumpers are really inexcusible.
Actually, I was up in Vermont and New Hampshire last year and NO ONE drove around in either an SUV or a Hummer (the correct trade name). The vehicle of choice for the real rural crowd was a pickup truck. These are more utilitarian and practical than SUVs and Hummers. If people really wanted a tough vehicle, they would get a pickup, bu you can't fit your family in those.
BTW, Humvee is from the Army codename HMMWV of Highly Mobile Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle.
-Daniel
The vehicle of choice for the real rural crowd was a pickup truck. These are more utilitarian and practical than SUVs and Hummers. If people really wanted a tough vehicle, they would get a pickup, bu you can't fit your family in those.
If you want a real tough vehicle, get a surplus (demilitarized) M113. Not a comfortable ride, but it'll get through, or over, pretty much anything. :-)
CH.
U r not the only one seeing mostly ladies driving these SUV's.............
3TM
In a totally "free" market, as perceived by some, if my neighbor pollutes the air, he gets the benefits of whatever he's doing to cause the pollution. But since I am exposed to almost as much pollution than he is, I pay the costs of his pollution, almost as much as he does. If I live next to his factory, and he lives out in Connecticut, then I pay a lot more cost than he does.
This is a failure of the free market. Sorry kids, the free market is not absolutely perfect for everything.
SUVs pollute a LOT more than cars. They are also significantly more dangerous because of a design flaw - high bumpers and frames. We all pay for these things. Just because the cost is not immediately obvious does not mean it is not there.
Wasn't it just last summer when gas was 75 cents a gallon in South Jersey. My famliy was tempted to stop buying orange juice and milk and just drink unleaded. I should have bought an underground tank and filled it up.
Our country is such a wuss now-a-days. Wasn't our national policy to declare war on whoever raised our oil prices? I'm all in favour of sending in the marines right now or the government using the surplus to fund synthetic oil plants that make oil out of coal and superheated steam. It worked for the Germans in WW2.
Yes, that and their wonderful road network is why Germany won World War II.
/*Our country is such a wuss now-a-days.*/
No, we're a nation of whiners....
/*Wasn't our national policy to declare war on whoever raised our oil prices?*/
Since when?
/*I'm all in favour of sending in the
marines right now or the government using the surplus to fund synthetic oil plants that make oil out of coal and superheated steam.*/
I suppose if people went to the supermarket and decided that a gallon of milk cost too much, you wouldn't mind if they just shoplifted it?
Here's a great way to not spend lots of money on gas - DON'T USE IT LIKE CRAZY!!!
/*It worked for the Germans in WW2. */
Which is why we're all speaking German right now, right?
/*I'm all in favour of sending in the
marines right now or the government using the surplus to fund synthetic oil plants that make oil out of coal and superheated steam.*/
I suppose if people went to the supermarket and decided that a gallon of milk cost too much, you wouldn't mind if they just shoplifted it?
I wouldn't mind if their was a cartel working to keep the price of milk as high as possible just for their own personal benefit. Greed is wrong, regardless of if it originates in Washington DC, Redmond, Ottawa, or OPEC.
Well, I guess you can call OPEC taking advantage of our addiction to oil greedy.
But DEMANDING that the price of oil never change, never even keep up with the price of inflation, cause you bought a gas guzzler, is also greed. Greed is greed.
So you'd like to see a war, with Americans and whoever has the oil dying in numbers, so you can keep gas cheap?
The "Red" cruise ship that was docked in red hook last week was just towed up the Hudson by 4 tugboats. I asume it is heading to the crusie ship terminal.
I saw R142A cars #7211-7215 on the Dyre line on Friday. It appeared that the train was undergoing some door tests. One of the tests included testing the doors encountering an object in the way. I saw a guy stick his foot into the path of the closing door on car #7211. One panel closed all the way, while the other closed onto the foot, opened, closed onto the foot again, etc. This reminds me of a passage I read from Stan Fischler's "The Subway..." which reads like this:
"The doors [on the R1 cars]...differed from the IRT car doors in one important respect, however. When they encountered a passenger or other obstruction in closing they did not reopen to their full extent, but stopped where they were. Jocular individuals who held up trains by playing with the doors would thus be thwarted to a considerable degree." (p. 71, emphasis added.)
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to be held at a station for a long time because some group of kids is playing with the doors on one of those R142s and won't stop.
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Door||Foot| |Door
Door| |Door
Door| |Door
Please note that I don't intend on sounding anti-R142, like someone else on this board who shall remain nameless. I'm not anti-Redbird either. This was just a thought I'd like to share.
I also saw #6311-6315 at East 180 Street while I was waiting for the #5 train to go to Gun Hill Road.
>I don't intend on sounding anti-R142,
>like someone else on this board......
There's more than one of us, brah.
Probably an attempt to eliminate the risk of an accidental dragging.
We need to see how it pans out in practice before we come to a conclusion on its usefulness.
Remember that the R-44s, as delivered, had a 3 or 5 second delay between the sound of the "doors closing" chime and the actual closing of the doors. It was removed because it was found to be impractical.
Is there a flashing light or some other sort of sign that the doors are closing for those people who cannot hear? Toronto's subway cars have an audible chime AND a flashing light above each set of doors to indicate that they are closing.
Do Boston's Red Line cars have this flashing light, too - I forget ....
--Mark
--Mark
I remember seeing a flashing light on #6315 as a door closed.
The Boston Red Line 1800 series cars have flashing lights, as do the new Type-8 Green Line cars.
The new LIRR cars have flashing lights as the doors close.
So do the 6300-6400 series coaches on Metro-North !!!!
Market-Frankford Line has it and the new DC cars that will arrive later this year will as well.
Why not make the doors close on the second tone instead of on the first? This way, the first tone could serve as a warning tone, and the second tone would be the "You have been warned. The doors are now closing" tone.
R.M.:
Maybe if the train operators have any brains when they discover that bratty kids are holding the train by obtrsucting the doors they might tell them to stop it or get lost.
BMTJeff
What a childish remark. First of all, it is the duties of the NYC Police to give orders to the riding public or to issue tickets for governmental obstruction. I don't even think supervisory personel has that power, although some may have peace officer status. Personally, I can "ask" someone to release doors but as a twelve year train operator, a union rep, and with brains, I will not ORDER anyone to release doors as my order has no backing. In the customer communications manual, it says that when someone is holding the doors, we must immediately reopen and make the "stand clear of the closing doors, PLEASE" announcements. Note by saying please, we are not forcibly removing you from your reasons of holding doors, not demanding with threat but merely asking you to let them go. Do you even realize that assigned conductors are responsible for the side door operations? BTW, my brains tell me that if someone holds the doors, I will make overtime by arriving late at the terminal and on that note, I'm not that stupid as you claim T/Os are.
The only way you make overtime by arriving late at the terminal is if you are completing your last trip. At all other times, a late arrival means less recovery and lunch time in between trips.
One T/O inched the train forward slowly, scared the brat on the platform who kept putting his arm in the doors to death.
Maybe if the train operators have any brains when they discover that bratty kids are holding the train by obtrsucting the doors they might tell them to stop it or get lost.
Confronting 'misguided' youths is hardly safe--I imagine that most of these subhuman things would be carrying more firepower than the police department.
CH.
The doors will open and close only 3 times. After that, it notifies the T/O and C/R on their computer screens. Action is then take by the crew.
Aah! A high tech solution to a problem faced by older equipment, temporarily solved by the R1's if there's something in the way of the doors closing, stop right there and don't re-open method.
I was informed that one of the R 142'S is experanceing door problems and also problems which the electronic Signs.
A Conductor from a more recent trainning cause informed me of this. The date now for the first run in service is June 15.
I thought it was only the door with the obstruction, all others would remain closed.
I heard an on-train announcement on that same set of cars. It was an "old-fashioned" announcement, but it started in a new-fashioned manner. A tone, about D-sharp, sounded before the announcement. Similar to what the new LIRR cars do. "Ding! This station is... Hunters Point Avenue. This is the train to... Port Jefferson. The next station is... Jamaica." I wonder what gender the voice will sound like: female like the R110A/B, or male like the new LIRR trains.
BTW, for those of you who want to know what the female voice sounds like, the R110B cars that run on the C line would be the best place to hear her in person. She announces the time every 20 minutes. I've heard her say "It is 20 to 11," "It is 11 o'clock," "It is 20 past 11," and "This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train." No dings, though. For those who can't make the train FSSR (it makes only one round trip from 168th Street), check out my web site: http://nav.to/rmmarrero -> Express Train -> Subway Sounds 2000 -> R110B.
I got on the cars at 59th Street going southbound, then caught up with the train at 59th Street going northbound. I got some surprised looks at the train from other passengers on the A train I was on going northbound at West 4th Street. It was across the platform from the A train at W4 and 14th Streets. I simply said "It's just the R110B cars." I noticed something as I came down the stairs to catch the southbound run. Like some buses, the car numbers are on the TOP of the cars.
The HBLR cars have the same kind of announcements, with a female voice. Also the same words displayed on an LED sign. ("This is the train to... Exchange Place. The next stop is... Liberty State Park.")
I wonder if this wording is some kind of Federal specification?
NJT Comet IV says:
The next station is... Elizabeth. This station-stop is... Elizabeth.
At the last stop:
The next and last station is... Hoboken. Ladies and gentelmen may I have your attention please... This station-stop is... Hoboken. Please check the overhead rack and surrounding areas for all of your personal belongings, and dispose of your trash in waste receptacles located on the station platform. If you have small children, be sure to take them by the hand while leaving the train, and watch the gap between the train and the platform. If you need additional directions or assistance, please see a member of the train crew. Thank you for riding New Jersey Transit.
Yes, it is an ADA requirement. The voice is for the vision impared, the LED Sign is for the hearing impared. The MTA (Baltimore) will begin retrofitting the system on all buses, LRV's and subway car next year. The subway (Metro) cars are being rebuilt by AAI in Hunt Valley for 20 more years of service starting now. New propulsion package, interior fittings, and ADA equipment are part of the rebuild package.
The R110B says "it is noon" at noon (vs. "it is twelve"). Rode it for the first time yesterday on the uptown C at noon. :-) The train had everyone at the rear end of the platforms, including me, running up to squeeze into the overcrowded last car.
In the Barcelona metro I noticed they had both male and female voices, preceded by a cheery 4-note sequence playing the major triad (1-5-1-3). The female voice says "Next station..." and the male voice says the station name. Then if there are transfers the female voice announces the transfers. It's the only time I've heard both genders alternating in a train's automated announcements, unless you count the sporadic (if it's still used) female "Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary" addition to the Charles/MGH announcement on the new Red Line cars in Boston.
How long has it been since you've heard someone call the IND the "8th Avenue Subway?" My answer would be "This past Saturday morning." I was on Green Bus Lines #5501 at that time. There were many mistakes on that talking bus. For more info, check out BusTalk, subject "5501: The Talking Bus That Doesn't Know Everything."
That's what we always called it when I was a kid in New York. I often wondered why. Not all the trains ran on 8th Avenue, but we still called that system by that name. If anyone knows why, I'm open to learn more about it. It does seem strange.
I recall in the 50s and even 60s station entrances on the IND lines said "8th Avenue Subway". This was true even in places where the only trains which stopped didn't even run on 8th Avenue, such as the GG (now G) crosstown line and the Culver line stations between Bergen St. and Church Ave.
My guess is that is because the 6th Ave. line was almost the last part of the original IND system to be opened (Dec., 1940). Before that, almost all of the trains (except the crosstown line) did go to the 8th Ave. Subway.
-- Ed Sachs
Back then, station entrances along 6th Ave. said "Independent Subway System", while virtually everywhere else in Manhattan, they said, "8th Avenue - Independent Subway System".
The entire IND division came to be known as the 8th Ave. line because that was the first segment to be opened in 1932. That's basically all there is to it. The 6th Ave. line, the second Manhattan trunk line, didn't open until 1940. Station entrances in Queens still had "Queensboro-8th Ave." signs as late as 1978, perhaps even later, until station entrance graphics were standardized.
That still doesn't explain why there are talking buses running around the city that still refer to a name that more or less died out 20 years before they hit the streets!
Well, the Bway-Nassau St. station is for the 8th Avenue Subway. The Brooklyn Bridge station is for the Lexington Avenue Subway. The Park Place station is for the 7th Avenue Subway. What's the big deal?
What does this have to do with R.M's message?
There was a complaint that the bus referred to the 8th Avenue subway around the City Hall area. These are the trains that run near City Hall.
So then my question still stands.
Sorry, because it was a GBL route I thought it was in Queens, I wasn't thinking of express routes.
It's no deal at all because if it isn't about the BMT then it's strictly minor league. Everyone knows the BMT ruled then, and rules now. That ought to get you minor league IRT fans out of the woodwork.
refer to a name that more or less died out 20 years before they hit the streets
That's NUTHIN'!
There hasn't been an IRT since June 1st, 1940, or a BMT since June 12th, 1940, and the TA even tried to make a conscious effort to eradicate them from our memory in the late '70s.
Did that work? I DON'T THINK SO!!
--Mark
Yeah yeah yeah.
The people who make the signs in the World Trade Center just put up new ones. Still say IRT and BMT on them... :-)
-Dave
I think its because the 8th Av Subway came first before the 6th Av. At one time it was the only IND train in Manhattan so I guess the name just stuck.
The IND was first called the 8th Avenue Subway because the 8th Avenue trunk line was the first to open.
If you want to know more about the IND, you oughtta read my History of the Independent Subway right on the site!
--Mark
5502 does it too. Both also announce the Q65 at 71/Continental as well as the 65a, but the 65 doesn't go there. It at least calls the #7 line the 'Queensboro Subway'. It's still better than all the non-talking buses out there.
The Star-Ledger has another article panning the HBLR:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/fa6b32.html
Bob
The article states that Buffalo has a light rail system, which it does not. Buffalo has a heavy rail system.
Buffalo has one of the strangest Light Rail Systems in existance. The line operates on the surface, but goes undeground on the outer end. The cars are very long cars with USLRV ends - single units. Two and three car trains are operated. Officialy it is considered a Light Rail system.
Going to Philedelphia tommorrow to railfan. Anything in perticular I should check out? Im planning to travel to the 69 st terminal on the Frankford line on the new M4s. Then the Norristown 100 line. The Market street line trains look like a piece of crap. Anyone been on them?
do you mean the MFL trains? I am riding them every day and they are wonderful. they have the padded seats and the anouncements and the ralfan window. make sure you take a trip on a regional rail line and/or visit 30th st. and suburban station. BTW if you want I could meet you. I'll be at the 8th St. MFL stop at aboot 12:40 and I'll be at the 34th St. station no later than aboot 4:25.
Has anyone taken movies of the Fineview line in Pittsburg before it ceased operation in the 60's...?if so are they for sale on video ? does anyone know ?
Has anyone taken movies of the Fineview line in Pittsburg before it ceased operation in the 60's...?if so are they for sale on video ? does anyone know ?
I've been on them, and think they look quite good. More attractive than R44, inside and outside. Cushioned seats at the railfan window facing forward out it! You don't have to stand up! 'Doors are opening' 'doors are closing', and station / destination automated announcements. Fast accelleration, smooth ride, overall great cars.
when are going to update the subway map on the web
Are you talking about the map at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm ? What is wrong with that map that needs updating?
A while back, the map on this page had some problems -- it showed outdated service information, as well as a misplaced Brooklyn-Queens border.
But, that was fixed months ago, and the information there now seems OK to me. What do you see there now that is out of date?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I think he means The Map (on paper).
[What is wrong with that map that needs updating?]
The #2 express service in The Bronx south of E 180 Street.
That isn't going to happen for at least another month. Check out the "Dyre Express Lives On" thread.
Drat! I was looking so forward to riding a #2 Bronx Thru Express tomorrow!
He said on the web.
As you know, a General Order this past weekend closed the 53rd Street tunnel, eliminating E service and causing the F to run on two branches. The southern branch ran from Stillwell to 42nd Street/6th Avenue, where it changed ends (boarding Brooklyn-bound passengers on the northbound rail) and returned to Coney Island. The northern branch ran from 179th Street Queens via Queens Blvd. (local), through the 60th street tube to the Broadway BMT, where it terminated at 34th Street. The transfer point between the two services was 34th street.
Saturday, around 5PM, while stationed at 34th/6th heading northbound on the southern branch I heard:
CONDUCTOR: (Explains construction causing reroutes, etc.) "Passengers for Queens MUST get off here and transfer upstairs to the F train on the N/R tracks. The next and last stop will be 42nd Street, then this train will return to Coney Island. If you are going to Queens, GET OFF MY TRAIN NOW! This train will not be going to Queens until TUESDAY MORNING AT 5:00 AM!"
LADY, SEATED ON TRAIN: "I'm in no rush. I can wait."
LOL.
Wouldn't the train return to the yard before 5AM Tuesday morning? I doubt the TA would keep trains in service that long w/o a break.
G trains go all weekend without returning to the yard. The Franklyn shuttle practically has no yard, though it has an extra train for rotation.
Mr R46 had an even better announcment working on the D with that G.O. I hope if he posts it, it will sound better than it was described.
Hi Engine Brake!
Indeed I rode with Mr R-46 this past weekend, and we traded stories of the GO announcements. They're great!
One of my all time favorites was from a ride on the 1 some years back.
"Stand clear of the clozin' dawz, please.
Watch the dawz!
Leggo of the dawz in the rear, this isn't a taxicab!"
LOL
Sounds as if you had to be there.
Hello,
I've updated our website to include directions to the school in Kendall Park at which the show will be held.
- http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm - or straight to the directions:
- http://home.att.net/~sctransit/directions.htm
Dealers to include: MTS Imports, Q-Car Co., Doylestown Car Co., Images Replicas, The Car Works, H&M Publications, Joseph P. Saitta, Mark S. Feinman, Arnold Joseph, Joseph Guarino, Royal Coach, Imperial Hobby Productions, Alan Zelazo, Rich Short, and many others.
Hope to see you there!
Just letting everybody know I've arrived safely in Boston. I'm slowly getting my stuff unloaded and unpacked, and I've got four job interviews this week. Hopefully by next week I will have settled into some sort of daily routine.
I think I'm off to a good start... Yesterday morning, while waiting at Kenmore Square for an outbound C train, I caught a glimpse of one of the new low-floor LRV's on the inbound D line. Hopefully soon I'll have a chance to actually ride one.
Special thanks to all those who had me in their thoughts while I was on the road.
-- David
Boston, MA
I am assuming Green C and D lines because Boston doesn't have lines named exclusively by letter, unless it's a shortcut for saying "Green C" or something like that.
The Green Line in Boston has four branches:
B/Boston College
C/Cleveland Circle
D/Riverside
E/Heath Street
(If you're wondering, the A/Watertown was abandoned in the 70s.)
Most Bostonians who have been around for a while call the lines the "BC," "Beacon," "River," and "Arborway" lines respectively. (The E line was cut back from Arborway to Heath Street "temporarily" in the 80s, and will never return due to NIMBYs.)
Downtown, all branches run in the central subway, so they are collectively called the Green Line. But west of Copley, the E branches off, and west of Kenmore, the others branch out. See the MBTA Web site for a map.
Welcome to Boston.
Public tours of the Big Dig are sold out through October.
--Mark
And to think it took me over and hour to drive from Burlington to Logan, then the power was lost at 7:40 leaving me stranded in Logan till the next day.
The big dig on the Central Artery is sure big. Was this one of Tip O'Neil pet projects?
Do you still get the smell of beans & coffee in the AM downtown ?
Back in the 60s when I worked at Custom House I would frequently get such sensor awakeing.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I think you've got the signage right. I love doing fake signage for Forgotten NY as well.
I think you'll enjoy it up there, and I only get up there every couple of years. If you like books, check out the place on Harvard St. just off Beacon in Brookline. I think it's Brookline Bookfinders. If they haven't got it they'll find it for you. Very polite service and a small-town feel, much unlike B&N.
To keep this on topic, check out the old-school passenger shelters at Coolidge Corner on the T. They are the original ones.
www.forgotten-ny.com
.....I bought this excellent vidieo called "" FABULOUS TROLLEYS" ( teg vidieo was shown on PBS )........
on this vidieo is a segment dedicated to the Chicago CTA EL cars doing about 50 mph across several miles
of comuter track(s).......This museum is open to the public maybe some of you out there experenced this .....??
Man...!! Got to go there .....!!! I bought this vidieo at the ORANGE EMPIRE TRANSIT MUSEUM in Peris Ca.
anyone ever been there ????..........._________________________________________________________________________.!!
You're probably referring to the Illinois Railway Museum. A really great place. I'm a member and visit several times a year.
-- Ed Sachs
......Thats right ...I didnt label it correctly thanks for the correction ........& ..........I am going to join the
ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM right here in southern california in Peris California 50 miles east of Los Angeles
I certanly hope the electric subway type cars are running this fall....cant wait to shoot this on vidieo / still.....
I'll second that. Hopefully they'll have the Green Hornet out on the loop line the next time I'm there, or perhaps have either the 4000s or the Electroliner on the mainline.
I had the chance to operate the Green Hornet...its different with the handlebar controls. These are also among the longest and widest PCCs built. (It was nighttime when I was watching the PCC being backed out of the barn...it was still pulling power when it went across the insulated bridge in the doorway...HUGE arc. I had spots in my eyes for quite a while after that. Now I instinctively look away or shield my eyes whenever I am near car movements in and out of barns anywhere I am.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Green Hornet also had a conductor as well when they were used in Chicago? I think they were converted to one man operation in later years and then restored by the IRM to the original two man configuration...
PCCs pull a huge amount of power when the motor circuit is engaged. As soon as you step on the power pedal (or handlebar) it draws the maximum current because there is no series stage, and most of the electrical current is converted into heat by the resistor grids during the early stages of acceleration when the motors are to run at their slowest. That's why there's a very big arc when the streetcar passes beneath the section isolator while motoring, especially at low speed coming out of a barn (because the slower the car passes beneath the beginning of the unpowered section, the longer it will continue to arc for through ionized air).
Also, PCCs (and Peter Witts for that matter, and similar older streetcars) jerk if you go through a section isolator with the motors running, hence signs suspended from the support cables holding the section isolators reading "SECTION ISOLATOR - PASS THROUGH WITH POWER OFF" or something to that effect.
-Robert King
Any trolley will do that.
The engineers on the MBTA Green Line put a section breaker on a STEEP UPHILL ramp from Haymarket to North Station. Most operators ignore the "CUTOUT" sign, and the train lurches madly.
Really?
Some engineer placed a section isolator on the uphill climb exiting from Spadina Station. The CLRVs and ALRVs don't have a problem with section isolators. They are quite smooth passing beneath them with the power on, and you can feel the difference between the streetcar handling insulated sections by themselves, and when operators actually obey the signs and take the power off in advance then resume motoring after clearing a section isolator in those cars, but it isn't terribly noticible. The one time an operator ran through that isolator on the uphill incline out of Spadina station in a PCC, the streetcar lurched quite severely.
I must say I'm surprised that the Green line vehicles lurch through section isolators, as the oldest ones (Boeing LRV) are only a little older than the CLRVs which don't.
-Robert King
At BSM we train our Motormen to drift through section insulators and door entrance insulators (aka breakers). We are an all-wheel system, carbon shoes in Baltimore were only used on trolley coaches, and drawing power across a breaker burns the cam tips and causes the Line Department extra work. In 30 years of operation we have never had to replace any cam tips on any insulator, so I suppose we train our people pretty well.
All of Chicago's PCCs were delivered as two-man cars. In 1952, all 83 prewar cars, known as Blue Geese, were converted to one-man operation and remained so until their final runs in 1956. IRM's 4021 remains this way; you can see where the second center door used to be. A group of Green Hornets were converted to optional one-man/two-man operation; later, some of these were converted back to two-man operation before being sent back to St. Louis Car Co. for recycling. I can dig up the exact car numbers if anyone is curious. Those which were converted received foot pedals which were used on all other PCCs. 4391 remained a two-man car during its entire, albeit brief, career. The Green Hornets were the only rear-entrance PCCs ever built.
And, yes, Chicago's PCCs were longer and wider than the "average" PCC. Because of their width, and because Chicago's streetcar tracks were laid closer together than normal, their bodies were mounted on the trucks 3 inches off center so that two cars could pass each other.
I'm watching with caution lest another discussion of arc dynamics
arise. On the topic of section insulators:
PCC cars do not draw very much more current when starting than
conventional streetcars if the pedal is left in the switching
position. If the pedal is pushed down, they can draw up to about
500A in motoring, which is a lot more than an old streetcar.
Any car will jerk when entering a section insulator with power on
because when the current stops flowing, the motors aren't putting
out torque. There is a second jerk when the car reaches the power-on
section again. PCC cars have a cushioning circuit that softens
that 2nd jerk.
The reason for the "POWER OFF" admonishment is to conserve the
insulating material on the section insulator as well as the brass
of the trolley wheel, both of which are consumed by the arcing.
If the porcelain or plastic insulating strip deteriorates from high temperature arcing and falls out of its holder before it is replaced during scheduled maintainance, the carbon shoe on the top of the pole becomes snagged on the end of the holder while the streetcar continues under its own momentum, tearing off the carbon shoe on the end of the pole. I suppose some damage could be done to the pole and overhead wire as well, and the worst that could happen is that the charged overhead wire gets ripped down. Fortunately that's a very rare event indeed. I have only been on a streetcar perhaps twice where the worst that's happened is the little carbon contact shoe is ripped of the pole and has to be replaced before the streetcar can resume running.
-Robert King
What about that ponderous pair of 1926 IC Pullman-Standard 65-ton MU's? Are they up and running? If any train looked invincible, it would be these Goliaths.
I have questions about the CTA 4000-series cars. Who made them and what year did they enter service - and what do the four vertical lights in the front mean? That little spotlight on top looks kind of small. And those cute little roof vents... never seen anything like that.
Wayne
The 4000s were built by Cincinnati Car Company. All of them had end vestibules with single sliding doors a la the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs. Early units had an additional center door; however, these doors were never used in revenue service. They could be found in mixed consists with older wooden elevated equipment. Later units from the 4200s on were equipped with trolley poles and did not have center doors.
The all-steel 4000s were the heaviest rapid transit cars Chicago ever had, weighing in at about 38 tons each. Top speed was in the 40-45 mph range. When the State St. subway opened, all 4000s were rounded up for service there for safety reasons. They ended their careers on the Evanston Express, and the last units were retired when the portion north of Howard was converted to third rail in 1973.
P. S. IRM also has a few Big Orange South Shore cars. You didn't want to mess around with them, either.
The four vertical lights on the front of the 4000s are the colored marker lights. One of each set was lit.
Yes, they still use them in Chicago.
-- Ed Sachs
I was wondering why my beloved 5 out of Dyre Avenue was still express this morning. A helpful conductor, (yes, there are many,) told me the plans to switch the 2 and 5 were canned for good. Is this true, or are the plans just being delayed? Making the 2 the express isn't such a bad idea. At least north-bound 2 and 5 trains wouldn't have to switch in front of each other at rush hour.
By the way, there are THREE NOSTALGIA TRAINS THIS SUMMER!!!! One is in June, and two are in July! I'm going on at least two of them. It's been awhile.
Train Buff Headquarters
According to today's Daily News, the plans are on hold for three months. The main reason seems to be a petition drive organized by Assemblyman Jeff Klein. He is a friend of my mother, but I think he is wrong in this case. He claims going local increases the ride by 15 minutes. Maybe he really believes that, as I'm sure he isn't a regular subway rider, but the MTA schedules show a 4-minute difference between express and local.
Suppose they underestimated 50%, and the difference is really 6 minutes. Avoiding the merge north of 180th St. will still usually save a minute or so, so the difference is back down to 5 minutes, which is not much, certainly less than the interval between Dyre Ave. trains. I say give the new plan a try, it just might work well. Politicans shouldn't be deciding the train schedules.
The basic problem with the plan is not so much the extra 4 minutes on the Dyre BUT that the stations between Jackson and E Tremont would get half the service they did before. All the people would be trying to pack into the trains from Dyre Ave.
Eliminate the 238th St #5
Run all 5's from Dyre, local south of E 180th
Run all #2's express south of E180th
Yeah, this would mean a loss of a few trains on the WPR line, but the express run should make up for any longer waits. Dyre Ave passangers would see more trains during the rush than they do now.
East siders to White Plains road would be royally screwed out of a direct train, and extra transferring at Concourse and 180th would slow things down.
People already transfer at 180th and E149th. And the loss of a few trains won't hurt the WPR line that much.
Why not try #2 and #5 on both WPR and Dyre and run #2 from WPR and #5 from Dyre express and #5 from WPR and #2 from Dyre local? Thus same amount of service as now below E. 180 St + 7th Av. and Lex. trains there and at all other stations. Less transfers and less dwell time, local and express service on both.
You'd want to assign new number markings to the new routings in that case; otherwise, there would be mass confusion (as if there isn't enough already).
How about no number, just look at the destination and wether express or local is lit. But then again, the TA seems to have forgotten the usefulness of bulkhead destination signs.
You're telling me. OTOH, there aren't too many routes whose terminals vary depending on the time of day. That's where front destination signs come in handy. The 5 is a good example. So is the A, especially during rush hours when it terminates at any of three stations. Too bad they couldn't install an electronic destination readout on the R-32s and R-38s.
Let's face it: once the Redbirds are gone, front destination signs will be a thing of the past. And, for that matter, marker lights.
I don't believe this would be necessary. The diamond 2 and circle 5 to Dyre Av., and the diamond 5 and circle 2 to WP Road (or the reverse).
7/12 of the service, actually. See my recent posting of the Staff Summary. I asked one of the planners about it, and he indicated that seven #5 trains per hour would result in loading levels along lower White Plains Road that are within MTA Board-approved guidelines. He also indicated that many passengers who board along the Dyre Avenue segment are likely to avail themselves of the transfer to express service at E. 180th Street, so the trains would essentially be entering the local zone south of that location nearly empty.
David
Thank you very much for posting the Staff Summary.
7/12 of the service, actually
My 50% was referring to peak rate as expressed in average waiting time. The peak period extends only 1/2 hour. The difference between 58 1/3% and 50% is not significant nor more accurate.
I asked one of the planners about it, and he indicated that seven #5 trains per hour would result in loading levels along lower White Plains Road that are within MTA Board-approved guidelines.
I'd be curious as to what these guidelines are. Are they the 110 passengers per IRT car figure that appears in the posted MTA planning studies?
He also indicated that many passengers who board along the Dyre Avenue segment are likely to avail themselves of the transfer to express service at E. 180th Street, so the trains would essentially be entering the local zone south of that location nearly empty.
He is essentially saying that the defacto operation will revert to the pre-1958 days with the Dyre Ave segment operating as a shuttle. I think this is a stretch.
Assuming that the express is 4 minutes faster than the local. The Dyre #5 and WPR #5 will arrive at E 180th together to preserve the timing at 149th (which was this proposal's raison d'etre). The WPR #5 will be 2.42 times more crowded. That does not seem too attractive to me. I will grant you that the West Side bound passengers will get off at E 180th St and wait 2 minutes for the next #2.
Even assuming that all the Dyre passengers left at E 180th, there would be 33.6% of the passengers riding in 25% of the cars for a 1.344 ratio. The present figures as stated in my previous post are: 64.9% of the passengers into 50% of the cars for a 1.298 ratio. So the cars would still be slightly more crowded (3.5%). Now suppose a significant number of Dyre Ave riders misbehaved by keeping their seats and not leaving at E 180th...
[Now suppose a significant number of Dyre Ave riders misbehaved by keeping their seats and not leaving at E 180th... ]
I'd guess they would unless there is an express waiting or coming. That's what I do, at least I'll be moving.
Arti
I'm not going to argue this point forever (I am neither engineer, mathematician, nor subway service planner), but I will say this:
Under the current service pattern (all #5s run express, all #2s run local), there is so much congestion outside E. 180th Street that the full scheduled service cannot be operated on time or reliably. I fail to see how the current service pattern is better (for either White Plains Road/Dyre riders or those in Manhattan) than one that can be operated on time and reliably.
And no, the Dyre Avenue service would not revert to its pre-1958 (actually 1957) configuration. The through service would be operated; it would be the riders' choice whether to take advantage of it or switch to the express at E. 180th Street. Moreover, the original through service on the Dyre Avenue Line was provided by Seventh Avenue #2 trains, not Lexington Avenue #5 trains.
It should also be remembered that currently, many passengers who board #2 trains along lower White Plains Road get off at Third Avenue (or, I would suppose) 149th Street-Grand Concourse to transfer to Lexington Avenue trains. Why keep dwell time high by continuing that when the opportunity exists to let them board the train they want in the first place, at stations that are less crowded?
David
I'm not going to argue this point forever (I am neither engineer, mathematician, nor subway service planner), but I will say this:
Under the current service pattern (all #5s run express, all #2s run local), there is so much congestion outside E. 180th Street that the full scheduled service cannot be operated on time or reliably. I fail to see how the current service pattern is better (for either White Plains Road/Dyre riders or those in Manhattan) than one that can be operated on time and reliably.
I also believe that the current service patterns and operations do not provide the best use of existing facilities. However, I do not think that the proposed changes would have been an improvement. Clearly, any long term Lexington Ave improvement must come to grips with the switching problems at E. 180th (as well as 138th St). It is interesting that this has not been identified as one of the 3 major hindrances to improved performance by NYCT. (See Train Dude's replies to my inqiries in 14th Gap Filler headings in which he relayed contemporary NYCT thinking).
And no, the Dyre Avenue service would not revert to its pre-1958 (actually 1957) configuration. The through service would be operated; it would be the riders' choice whether to take advantage of it or switch to the express at E. 180th Street. Moreover, the original through service on the Dyre Avenue Line was provided by Seventh Avenue #2 trains, not Lexington Avenue #5 trains.
I may not have been sufficiently clear in expressing that observation. The operative word was the qualifier "defacto." The NYCT planner assumed that so many passengers would leave the Dyre Ave trains that they would leave near empty from E 180th. Does this scenerio not result in a defacto shuttle operation?
I'm fully aware that the Dyre Ave Line first provided West Side service. Service was far worse, when the 7th Ave trains terminated at the old Bronx Park Station. Dyre Ave riders wanting to go to the West Side had to first change at E 180th. They then had to take the Lex Ave Express but not the Thru Express 1 stop to 177th St. They would then make a 2nd transfer to a West Side train coming out of Bronx Park. I understand that the crowding at 177th St made the wooden platforms sag. NYCT has made a few improvements over the years.
It should also be remembered that currently, many passengers who board #2 trains along lower White Plains Road get off at Third Avenue (or, I would suppose) 149th Street-Grand Concourse to transfer to Lexington Avenue trains. Why keep dwell time high by continuing that when the opportunity exists to let them board the train they want in the first place, at stations that are less crowded?
I would be curious to find out the destination patterns are. I had assumed equal preferences between East and West Side destinations for my calculations, for want of more accurate information.
Any proposal that provided both East and West Side services at most stations would reduce crowding at transfer stations. The present service pattern provides this on the north WPR segment. Previous service patterns provided such service south of E 180th, including the prewar 2nd and 3rd Ave El services from Freeman St.
If the NYCT planners could come up with service patterns that: 1 - provided multiple destination services at each station; 2 - closely matched train capacity to demand at each station; 3 - provided express service for North Bronx riders; 4 - kept total throughput at 30 or more TPH, they would have a winner.
One of the hindrances to providing 30 TPH or more on the Lexington Avenue Line is the service pattern through E. 180th Street. Another is dwell time. Both of these would be addressed by the proposed service plan.
1. Having all White Plains Road trains run express while all Dyre Avenue trains run local reduces the number of conflicting movements at E. 180th Street to zero. This increases speed and reliability. Perhaps at some point it would be found that an additional trainset or two could be operated through the area during the peak hour(s).
2. Having only Lexington Avenue service run via White Plains Road Local south of E. 180th Street reduces the number of transferring passengers at Third Avenue and 149th Street-Grand Concourse, since the majority of passengers boarding in that area are destined for the East Side of Manhattan. Providing both Seventh Avenue and Lexington Avenue service would either a) increase the number of switching movements at E. 180th Street, or b) result in an imbalance of #2 service between the Dyre Avenue and White Plains Road branches, causing insufficient service along White Plains Road north of E. 180th Street while nearly empty trains serve the Dyre Avenue Line.
Mr. Bauman's wish is a good one, but it doesn't seem that all of his goals can be accomplished given the existing track and switch limitations.
David
I don't follow your point 2b)
or b) result in an imbalance of #2 service between the Dyre Avenue and White Plains Road branches, causing insufficient service along White Plains Road north of E. 180th Street while nearly empty trains serve the Dyre Avenue Line.
The north WPR portion accounts for 47% of the traffic and has 75% of the trains. I would assume that this number can be reduced to 50% without causing insufficient service. Correct?
My point is that one way of providing both Lexington Avenue and Seventh Avenue service to the lower White Plains Road local passengers, is to have both some #2 and some #5 trains start at Dyre Avenue. Given that capacity of the White Plains Road Line below E. 180th Street is finite, this would involve shifting some #2 trains from 241st Street/238th Street to Dyre Avenue. White Plains Road Line riders above E. 180th Street would be inconvenienced to some degree, and Dyre Avenue Line riders could relax in their deck chairs on the trains. This plan pitches service the wrong way.
David
Forgive the second posting; it's early in the day :-)
Since the destinations of local riders south of E. 180th Street are predominantly along the Lexington Avenue corridor, the #2 local trains put into the mix under Mr. Bauman's plan would turn into a de facto shuttle to Third Avenue. Yes, there's less local service than before under NYCT's plan, but it actually goes where the people are going, rather than forcing most of the passengers to transfer, which causes delays due to dwell time. And, while the amount of service provided is not to everyone's liking, it's within the loading guidelines.
By the way, I read the Times article about this matter from earlier this week. The only way that woman could take 90 minutes to get from Pelham Parkway/Dyre to Brooklyn Bridge, even allowing for delays of 50% of the schedule, is if she walked a good part of the way. Also, the difference in scheduled running time between the White Plains Road local and express is 4 minutes, not the claimed 15; the elimination of switching delays and transfers should eat most, if not all, of that up.
David
Go back to sleep, you need your beauty rest. :-)
Since the destinations of local riders south of E. 180th Street are predominantly along the Lexington Avenue corridor...
Where are the hard numbers that corroborate this assumption? I am anxious to incorporate actual origin-destination preferences into my analysis. I was taught as a scientist that "nothing exists unless it can be measured." Bertrand Russell demonstrated that any statement could be proven from a single false hypothesis. We are both spinning our wheels by "proving" our positions from differing hypotheses.
Engineers in the real world are asked to solve problems, when vital numerical data is unavailable. They will make reasonable educated guesses for the missing data. They will state their assumptions and may even check how sensitive their were results were on the assumed data.
My assumption was to show no overt origin or destination preference. There are sound mathematical and physical reasons for making such assumptions. The no preference origin assumption resulted in less than a 5% error, when compared to calculations based on the origin preference data that you graciously provided. Less than 5% error is "good enough for government work," as engineers are fond of saying.
One compelling reason to assume destination indifference is that there are an equal number of 7th and Lex Ave trains scheduled to leave Third Ave. If the predominant destination for all the riders is the Lex corridor such equality is wasteful. The only logical way to reconcile this discrepancy with your statement is to assume that the vast majority riders from Dyre and the local tracks south of E 180th prefer the Lex while those from north WPR prefer the 7th Ave Line. This is not an entirely impossible scenario but it is not one that maximizes entropy.
there's less local service than before under NYCT's plan, but it actually goes where the people are going,...while the amount of service provided is not to everyone's liking, it's within the loading guidelines.
Sounds like Wonder Bread: Vitamin Enriched and puffed up with hot air. :-)
BTW what are these quantitative loading guidelines?
...the mix under Mr. Bauman's plan...
What plan? I have not proposed one. I have stated 4 quantifiable goals against which to measure any proposed service. All I have noted thus far is that the MTA's proposed changes provided worse service quantitatively based on these goals. If somebody has published a service revision plan that I have supposedly authored, please let me know. I'll sue for libel.
I read the Times article about this matter...
The only part of this article that I cited was the postponement of the service changes. I would have used the MTA had they seen fit to post such notice in their web site.
The only way that woman could take 90 minutes to get from Pelham
Parkway/Dyre to Brooklyn Bridge, even allowing for delays of 50% of the schedule, is if she walked a good part of the way
That's not entirely accurate. Try taking this trip during the midnight hours. This trip will take 90 minutes, based on the schedules published on the MTA web site. The only walking this woman would have to do is the transfer from the #2 to the #4 at 149th St. She misses this transfer and waits 18 minutes for the next train.
This is not relevant to a discussion on proposed rush hour service changes. However, 90 minutes travel time for this journey is normal at certain times.
[[Since the destinations of local riders south of E. 180th Street are predominantly along the Lexington Avenue corridor...]
[Where are the hard numbers that corroborate this assumption? I am anxious to incorporate actual origin-destination preferences into my analysis. I was taught as a scientist that "nothing exists unless it can be measured." Bertrand Russell demonstrated that any statement could be proven from a single false hypothesis. We are both spinning our wheels by "proving" our positions from differing hypotheses.]
Without exit swipes, there's no easy way to determine destinations short of conducting polls of riders waiting for trains at the local stations. Somehow, I doubt that enough people would answer to make the results reliable.
Without exit swipes, there's no easy way to determine destinations short of conducting polls of riders waiting for trains at the local stations. Somehow, I doubt that enough people would answer to make the results reliable.
Why not try an "engineering approximation" of the type to which I alluded. I'll assume that most of the people retrace their path during the evening rush hour. I'll also assume that people taking buses to and from stops in the Bronx have the same destination pattern as those within walking distance of their station.
Trace the station origin of all passengers who exercise their train-bus transfer on routes that act as feeders for this #2 and #5 lines in the Bronx. Calculate the ratio of those transferring passengers who entered at a West Side Station from those who entered from a Lex Ave Station.
It's a "guesstimate." It's better than nothing. It's also available.
[I was taught as a scientist that "nothing exists unless it can be measured."]
I thought Heisenberg's uncertainty principle said that nothing can be perfectly measured?
I thought that principle had to do exclusively with electron orbitals?
[Go back to sleep, you need your beauty rest. :-)]
Didn't work...I'm as ugly as ever .
I don't have hard numbers to corroborate my statement, but it isn't really my statement. As I said in a previous posting, the people who actually do the planning told me that the origin/destination data showed that White Plains Road local riders are headed predominantly for the Lexington Avenue corridor (I know this was not always the case, but it is now--change happens). I requested this information in order to address Mr. Bauman's previously noted concerns. Evidently, I have failed to do so to his satisfaction, and it is unlikely that I ever will be able to satisfy his concerns since I do not have ready access to the detailed information he requires nor the time to do the digging. Besides, as I have stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN, I am not an engineer, nor am I a mathemetician or a service planner. I am simply trying to help explain something, as best I can, using whatever information I happen to have or can obtain in informal conversations with my acquaintences in the service planning arena, along with my knowledge of the transit system. If that's not good enough, so be it.
The rush hour loading guidelines for IRT trains, if memory serves, call for an average of 110 passengers per car (crush load is 180).
[One compelling reason to assume destination indifference is that there are an equal number of 7th and Lex Ave trains scheduled to leave Third Ave. If the predominant destination for all the riders is the Lex corridor such equality is wasteful. The only logical way to reconcile this discrepancy with your statement is to assume that the vast majority riders from Dyre and the local tracks south of E 180th prefer the Lex while those from north WPR prefer the 7th Ave Line. This is not an entirely impossible scenario but it is not one that maximizes entropy.]
The Lexington Avenue Line is overcrowded. The Seventh Avenue Line, however, is not overcrowded. Given that Lexington Avenue Line service cannot be increased unless certain conditions can be alleviated (an argument unto itself, and one I ABSOLUTELY will not address since we have been down that road before), should #2 service be reduced simply to give Seventh Avenue riders the same level of discomfort experienced by Lexington Avenue Line riders? Mr. Bauman's conclusion also fails to account for the fact that people board both #2 and #5 trains south of the point where they diverge. Capacity must be provided, to the degree feasible, for these people as well.
The parts of the Times article I addressed that Mr. Bauman had not cited were in fact cited by another poster; maybe I should have made that clear. The rider who claimed a trip from Pelham Parkway to Brooklyn Bridge takes her 90 minutes awakens at 5:45 AM, according to the article, then showers and dresses. The first through train currently leaves Dyre Avenue at 5:50 AM. Clearly, she is not riding during the midnight hours. If this trip regularly takes her 90 minutes, she must be getting off at Union Square and walking to Brooklyn Bridge.
David
The Lexington Avenue Line is overcrowded. The Seventh Avenue Line, however, is not overcrowded.
The #4 and #5 leave the Bronx with a 61% load factor - as shown in Table 9D-9. The overcrowding is as a result of passengers boarding at 125th and 86th Streets, as this table clearly shows.
...should #2 service be reduced simply to give Seventh Avenue riders the same level of discomfort experienced by Lexington Avenue Line riders?
You raised this issue. What is the load factor of #2 trains leaving the Grand Concourse/149th St Station? If it is comparable to the same 61% load factor as the Lex trains, then the number of #2 trains on the WPR line is justified. However, such data weaken your assertion that the vast majority of lower WPR passengers want Lex service.
Mr. Bauman's conclusion also fails to account for the fact that people board both #2 and #5 trains south of the point where they diverge. Capacity must be provided, to the degree feasible, for these people as well.
If the load factor data indicate that the #2's are substantially less crowded than the Lex trains AS THEY LEAVE THE BRONX, then the 7th Ave passengers could be better served by increasing the number of #3's at the expense of #2's. This would provide the same level of service on the 7th Av Line in Manhattan. The shorter #3 route would require fewer trains. These extra trains could be used to reduce the overcrowding on the Lex provided they could be introduced where they are most needed.
The rider who claimed a trip from Pelham Parkway to Brooklyn Bridge takes her 90 minutes...
I will agree with you that the Times did not verify this woman's story. My implicit complaint is that a 90 minute train-only trip from an outer borough into the CBD should not take 90 minutes at any hour.
Mr. Bauman raises some valid issues. There are points to be made on both sides, and I think they've been made. I don't have the information he requested -- maybe such information would support his case, and maybe it would support NYCT's. In any case, as I mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was this one -- who remembers anymore?), I'm not here to take a position either for or against NYCT's decisions. I'm only trying to explain what the thinking behind this decision was, as best I can, using whatever resources I have. Whether one chooses to agree with NYCT's decision or not is up to the individual.
David
One thing no one has considered is that the 2 is a much longer line than the 5. If it ran express in the Bronx, it would shorten the line's run a bit. How 'bout this. The diamond 5 runs express in this way. 241st, Gun Hill, 180th, 149th. The 2 could be the local out of 241st. What a ride!
By the way, ALL city officials should be required to ride the subway to work. I especially think the Mayor should HAVE to. If you work for the city, ride the city's transportation. And, as we ALL know, the subway is the safest, fastest, cheapest and most fun way to go. Can I get a Hell Yeah?
ALL city officials should be required to ride the subway to work. I especially think the Mayor should HAVE to. If you work for the city, ride the city's transportation.
Damn strait!
Well, it used to be faster than it is now.
If you want to know more about AEM7ACs, here is the direct quote from the May 2000 issue of Railway Age Magazine.
New Life for an Old Workhorse
The Acela Express and its companion HHL (High Horsepower Locomotive) aren't the only pieces of new equipment for the NEC. Thirty of Amtrak's AEM-7 locomotives are now undergoing a complete makeover at the Wilmington, Del., shops.
The rebuild program is a public/private partnership between Amtrak and Alstom, which is supplying a.c. propulsion equipment, electrical cabinets, transformers, HEP, and cab displays. Amtrak workers are performing the overhauls under Alstom supervision.
The power modules use water-cooled IGBT (inverted gate bipolar transistor) technology and provide 5 MW (megawatts) of traction power plus 1 MW of HEP, enough for 12 coaches. As such, the reborn AEM-7 ``is the world's first passenger locomotive with IGBT in service,'' says Alstom.
Amtrak also wanted to upgrade the amenities in the AEM-7 cab. This was accomplished by adding two screens, one of which displays main functions and verifies operations; the other, failures and their location. ``Having all information on one operations screen makes the engineer's job easier and more comfortable ergonomically,'' says Alstom. ``The trouble-shooting screen improves locomotive availability, because failures can be identified and corrected quickly.''
To date, six out of 30 AEM-7s have been rebuilt.
Chaohwa's note: the six AEM-7s are 901, 905, 916, 918, 920, and 924. 916, 918, and 924 are on the NEC now.
I just scan three images of AEM7ACs, and here they come.
AEM7AC 924 at New Carrollton, MD on 5/24/00.
AEM7AC 916 at BWI Rail Station, MD on 5/27/00.
The certificate plate of AEM7AC 924.
Chaohwa
Oops, I put the wrong dates on them.
Here are the correct ones.
AEM7AC 924 at New Carrollton, MD on 5/23/00.
AEM7AC 916 at BWI Rail Station, MD on 5/26/00.
The certificate plate of AEM7AC 924.
Chaohwa
How busy (or safe) is the Beach 67th street station about 1 or 2 o'clock in the afternoon? I ask this reason because I'm going on the A from Rockaway Park tomorrow and there's a GO in effect for the shuttle, which will run to Far Rockaway instead of Broad Channel from 10am to 3pm. Will I have to wait long for a northbound A at Beach 67th, or should I wait till after 3pm when the G.O. is over and change at Broad Channel.
If it's anything like Beach 105th Street, it'll be OK. I'm surprised that they're not terminating the shuttles at Beach 67, like they did when I saw the R142's there. Be on the lookout for them between BC and HB.
Beach 67 should be busier than Beach 105. I was the only person on either platform waiting for the Shuttle train that day. There were more birds in the station than people!
A person can go mad waiting for a train at one of those stations. Long periods of no people, no cars, no trains. All you have are birds, and the faint sound of the ocean.
I wouldn't do it. If you must, wait by the token booth until the
train comes...
Well I went to Rockaway after 3pm, so I did not have to contend with the G.O. I took an R38 A train from W4th, it was long trip. But we did speed pretty good through the Cranberry Street tubes, and on those express stretches in Brooklyn.
Then we emerged on the El in Queens. You can clearly see the LIRR former Rockaway Branch and where the A joins it. Then after that we rode on embankment. Just before the curve onto the Rockaway line the T/O went fast and didn't notice construction flags. Thus he went fast and didn't blow his horn, the result was startled track workers running...fast! Thank God nobody got hurt. After JFK it was quite scenic, we went through flatlands and looked like we were doing at least 40mph before Broad Channel. I changed at Broad Channel to the Rockaway Park shuttle, it looked like only 4 cars and reminded me of the R44 OH that SIRT has with the front "peephole".
We arrived at Rockaway Park, nice station, and it was somewhat busy.
The area reminded me of western Long Beach, a real beach community.
The A train was pretty crowded, even the shuttle had only a few seats.
I took the Q53 bus back, nice express ride down Woodhaven Blvd. Really fast Orion CNG bus. I can't believe that it's regular fare and I can ride with my fun pass.
When I was in Flushing at around 9am, it was not that busy. And the 7X
toward Manhattan had seats! I still opted for the front window though.
In Flushing around 6pm, again much less busy. Usually there are like traffic jams of people around 6pm, but not when I was there. I wonder if the recent happeinings there are keeping people away.
I have to say after riding the "A" it is now one of my favorite lines.
The combination of express tunnel stretches, under-river tubes and over-bay bridges and Els, as well as going through scenic Broad Channel and seeing former LIRR Rockaway line makes the "A" one of the most interesting lines. And I didn't even do the CPW stretch!
06/02/2000
[I took the Q53 bus back, nice express ride down Woodhaven Blvd. Really fast Orion CNG bus. I can't believe that it's regular fare and I can ride with my fun pass.]
I didn't know that the Fun Pass is good on private buses!
Bill "Newkirk"
[I didn't know that the Fun Pass is good on private buses!]
Yes Bill there is a Santa Claus ... er I mean MetroCards work on the magnificant seven "privates", i.e. Queens Surface, Green, cTc, Command, Jamaica, NY Bus Service & Liberty.
(As you know the Fun Pass is good all day on LOCAL bus and subway lines)
Mr t__:^)
They also work on LONG ISLAND BUS.
But not companies like City of Long Beach Transit ....
Mr t__:^)
John, Stay tuned to this Bat Channel for the "Field Trip to the Beaches of Rock & Long". Sea Beach Fred will be in town in August, seem like a good time for a trip to the beaches.
I did it last year, it was a long but pleasent trip despite the fact that a little mist was in the air.
Will have to stop by Nathan's in Oceanside to see what night the old cars come by ... think it's Tuesday.
Mr t__:^)
If he's going to come, we'll have to visit Orchard Beach. Maybe we can tell him in advance so he remembers the gun he thinks he needs.
Yes, we don't want him to "sweat" it ;-)
Mr t
Hey, John, glad to hear you like the A. It's my favorite route, as my handle will attest. You would have loved it when the R-10s were still around. When I took it out to Far Rockwaway last time, I gazed towards Manhattan from the station platform, and the Empire State Building seemed far, far away. By all means, do the CPW stretch if you get a chance.
Yeh, but 20 minute headways during mid day week days, long time to wait
Sorry, but what does "CPW" mean? I haven't mastered all those abbreviations, yet!
Thanks.
Chuck Greene
Central Park West.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the meaning of CPW.
Chuck
Take one of the 5 Rockaway Pk express A trains that run every 20 minutes, starting at 4:19. They originate at 59st / Columbus Circle. They arrive 5 minutes early, so this is one of the few times you can regularly hear 'This downtown A train is being held until its scheduled departure time.' All throughout the line, they announce the arrival of the trains ('There is a Rockaway Park bound A express approaching 34th st.') Usually they just say 'Downtown express'.
One negative, seldom is an R38 assigned to the Rock Park "special".
For some reason, they usually run mostly R38s on Fridays to Rock Park.
I wasn't on the 2 today. However, I heard that The plans to Make the 2 Express in the bronx maybe over for good. Honestly, Its not fair to the Train Crews to be on a long Train ride from the Bronx to brooklyn while being express in one borough. In my opinion, The TA shouldn't have to ask permission from someone. Thats as stupid as me asking someone to spend my money. Like "So N So", can I spend my money today"?
[In my opinion, The TA shouldn't have to ask permission from someone]
TA is not a private company, they answer to the public/ public reps.
Arti
Yes, but the power of the "reps" over minutia like which trains run express/local is too extreme. It's the primary reason JFK will never have a direct rail link to Manhattan. Sheldon Silver, all by himself, killed any legitimate shot and any kind of Second Ave. construction with his opposition to the far more feasible "stubway" and his insistance on a full length line, which we all know will NEVER, EVER get built. So the people on the East Side will continue to suffer for generations more.
Well if TA got their way they would probably eliminate all the service. At this point the system will be the most profitable since run by the city. TA is not a capitalist enterprise thus it has to be controlled by politicians (judistical branch), analogy: lets eliminate courts and let the police determine the punishment.
Arti
My Singaporean friend and I were comparing and contrasting our system with Singapore's system and he could not understand why we would ever have express service. He was very proud about Singapore's system always making money and said that they would never build express lines because that would mean that the locals are serving stations which don't deserve to be stations. He said that if a station had so few passengers that it could be skipped by some trains then it makes no sense to build a station there at all. My only comeback was that our lines are so long here that without express trains it would take forever to get to where we want to go. Does anyone have a better comeback?
Perhaps is the same design logic as in Eastern Europe. The stations are de facto ALL express stations paced about a mile apart. Surface tranportation feeds the stations. NY subway dates back before this kind feeder scheme would be practical. In essence that's what exp local service does - locals are feeders exp is the "subway"
Arti
Singapore s system is only 1/4 of what NYC has, and the only place where the stations are closetogether are in central City. The trains do not compete with bus lines like they do in Manhatten and are about a mile apart, with speeds up to 60 mph between stations. There is a extensive feeder bus service at about every station, so no part of the Island Country is without a 1 bus transfer to MRT (*subway) service. Remember the whole Island Country is about the size of NYC less Staten Island. Trains, are clean, fast, reliable.
That's what I'm sayng, different design philosophy. Queen's express could be compared but probably mostly because original plans for the Second System never materialized.
Arti
[Singapore s system is only 1/4 of what NYC has, and the only place where the stations are closetogether are in central City. The trains do not compete with bus lines like they do in Manhatten and are about a mile apart, with speeds up to 60 mph between stations. There is a extensive feeder bus service at about every station, so no part of the Island Country is without a 1 bus transfer to MRT (*subway) service. Remember the whole Island Country is about the size of NYC less Staten Island. Trains, are clean, fast, reliable.]
Hard to imagine that as a model for dense areas here given the traffic. OTOH, I think it would make an excellent model for service in some outlying areas.
It would take too long. The expresses are slow enough as it is! Would you like to take an A train its full length late at night? I think it stops at about 70 stations! Here in DC though, the trips can be somewhat shorter than in NYC. We do not have express service here.
BART in the San Francisco area doesn't believe in express service either. Nor does Los Angeles (but we're damn lucky to have what rail transit we have in the LA area...)
Not to be picky, but the "A" train from Far Rockaway to 207th Street, running local through Brooklyn, is 46 stops (including the end points) according to the subway map I have here. BUT -- how many people really do travel end-to-end on the "A" (or the "D", "F", or other long routes, for that matter)??
Does anyone know any other system that has express service 24 hours?
As far as I know, the only system outside of New York that has express service is in London, and only for two of the lines. I rode one of them, the Piccadilly, from Heathrow to central London. The Piccadilly Line is probably roughly as long as the A line in NYC, perhaps longer. The ride from the airport to the city center is long, taking about an hour. The one express part has four tracks, is laid out on an embankment reminiscent of the Brighton line, and the center express tracks skip four stops.
The London system does not operate 24 hours.
Philadelphia and Chicago have express service.
The express in Chicago runs rush hours only, in Philadelphia, there is no night service.
As for the Red line passing a few stops otherwise made by the Brown line between Belmont and North Clybourn, I'm not sure what they do at night.
Of all the express runs in New York City, only the D runs at night. I'm sure those days are numbered, maybe even the 6th Avenue portion (there are only two stations, it's stupid waiting 20 minutes for an F just to wait 20 minutes for an L so people can save two lousy stops).
"As for the Red line passing a few stops otherwise made by the Brown line between Belmont and North Clybourn, I'm not sure what they do at night."
The Red skips those Brown Line stops (Wellington, Diversey, Armitage) all the time. The Red runs on the two inner tracks, while the platforms at the three stops mentioned are on the outside of the L structure and serve the two outer tracks only.
Does the Brown run 24/7?
"Does the Brown run 24/7?"
Alas, no. The Brown Line runs from about 4 or 5 AM to about midnight or 2AM, depending on the day of the week. And, for the time being, it doesn't operate south of Belmont after about midnight on weekdays, 8PM on Saturdays, or at any time on Sundays. When the Brown trains end at Belmont, Loop-bound passengers change to the Red Line at Belmont, and people leaving the Loop for Brown Line destinations have to ride the Red as far as Belmont.
The latter is being remedied by CTA, though. Starting July 16th, Brown line trains will run the full length of the route, from Kimball terminal to the Loop, up to midnight seven days a week. For most Brown Line passengers, the Belmont shuffle will be over. As anyone who's ridden the Red and Brown Lines south of Belmont can tell you, the ridership is DEFINITELY there for this improvement in service.
In Hong Kong the airport line runs 24/7 and is express, passing 3 stations that the local Lantau Island-Hong Kong use, and share the same tracks. The Picidilley line in London, does pass a few stops but I would not consider them a express and local, since the line that stops there is a different line entirely on a different right of way.
[Of all the express runs in New York City, only the D runs at night. ]
Not entirely correct. The 4 skips Hoyt St. at all times.
1 stop
[Here in DC though, the trips can be somewhat shorter than in NYC. We do not have express service here. ]
I've heard that occasionally DC trains will skip stations during rush hour. Can anyone confirm this?
I dunno about DC, but San Francisco's Muni Metro trains occasionally do it. Not that it was planned to happen, the computer system just
decides now and then to keep trains on time by holding their passengers captive and breezing right on through stations!!
This one I'm not kidding about, have seen it happen a couple times. Once from a station platform, and once from on board a train. Oh well, it was only a couple minutes ride back to the station I REALLy wanted to get off the train at....
You could argue that the Metro *is* express *only*, sans local stations. I always thought of it as a sort of hybrid commuter railroad/subway anyway. Most of the Virginia & Maryland stops are among vast suburban parking lots, the kind you see in New Jersey on the NEC, and there's no practical way one could walk between them, as you can between NYC local stops. Even downtown, the stops are far enough apart that they are, for all intents and purposes, express stops. There are vast swaths of downtown DC, Georgetown most noticably, which lack convenient subway service. WMATAGMOAGH is much more of an authority on this, of course, but this was my impression when I live in Georgetown for a year in the early '90's.
This is not to say I don't like the Metro. I do, and ride it whenever I'm in DC. It's just that its design concept is different than NYC's, as mentioned previously in this thread in regards to Singapore's system. This is a result of changing habitation styles (city to suburban) and also of funding. I'm guessing that the only way the Metro got funding in the '70's was insistance by Marylanders and Virginians that the design incorporate commuter-friendly elements. But I'll defer to WMATAGMOAGH here too.
I think the bottom line is the NYC subways were designed to compete with trolleys, which offered door to door service. Modern rail systems are designed to supplement cars or buses, and to compete with a fast auto-only commute.
You can see a shift to wider spacing on the IND, vs. the IRT and BMT. The IRT and BMT stations are just too close -- what you gain in walk you lose in wait. But the IND local stops are hard to fault, even with express service as well.
"I think the bottom line is the NYC subways were designed to compete with trolleys, which offered door to door service. Modern rail systems are designed to supplement cars or buses, and to compete with a fast auto-only commute."
That is very true. Here in Chicago, before CTA was created, the L/subway system was owned by one private company (Chicago Rapid Transit) while the streetcars, trolley buses, and some bus lines were owned by another (Chicago Surface Lines). Even with transfers between the two companies -- required by city ordinance -- CRT and CSL were competitors, not cooperative. Rather than having stations only every four blocks (1/2 mile) at main streets and using the surface lines as feeders, CRT maintained stations at a two block (1/4 mile) distance on some parts of the system.
Once CTA took over, a lot of these excess stations were closed. On the lines from that era, there are still stations every half-mile, and some surviving quarter-mile stops in particularly densely populated areas. The surface lines were also rationalized: while the bus routes still mostly conform to the grid pattern of the main streets (and for good reason), some bus routes that were repetitious of L routes were eliminated and several bus lines were rerouted at the edges of the city so that their terminal is at an L station.
When the Dan Ryan Expressway median line was laid out in the late 1960s, the stations were sited one mile (two main streets) apart. (However, the line down the median of the Kennedy Expressway, built at the same time, has half-mile spacing.) The bus routes on east-west streets without stations were rerouted so that they veer off their regular street to the nearest Dan Ryan station and return to their regular street. In that way, every east-west bus route on the South Side feeds into the (now) Red line. When the Orange line to Midway was built in the early 90s, stations were also located one mile apart, with similar alterations to north-south bus lines on the Southwest Side in order to serve stations from main streets without stations. And the stations on the 1980s extension of the (now) Blue line from Jefferson Park to O'Hare are **at least** a mile apart.
What you describe about WMATA Metrorail is also true about San Francisco area BART. It's more like a modern-day interurban than like NYCTA's subway system -- with stations spread out vast distances in the suburbs, etc.
On the newer Dublin-Pleasanton Line, BART has a couple stations that are TEN miles apart!!! From Castro Valley to Dublin, the trains run in the median of I-580, and I checked the station spacing on my truck odometer -- 10 miles exactly.
Does anyone know the farthest distance between 2 express stops in NYC (such as 125th-59th on the A, not Broad Channel to Howard Beach on the A). How about the longest distance between any stops in DC.
It would take too long. The expresses are slow enough as it is! Would you like to take an A train its full length late at night? I think it stops at about 70 stations! Here in DC though, the trips can be somewhat shorter than in NYC. We do not have express service here (or more than 2 tracks).
NYC system is of a different/older design. It resembles more of a conventional RR than 20th century rapid transit. At the same time few subway systems are capable of serving commuter without intermodality.
Arti
The botton line is, Singapore is much smaller than New York City. Inner areas of the city can certainly be served by locals, but New York is a big city, and outer areas require expresses. If Singapore keeps growing, it will probably develop a commuter rail service to outer areas, which will function as an express. At that point, they may wish they built four tracks -- just as we wish there were six tracks on Queens Boulevard.
Singapore transit makes money because fewer Singaporans drive, the riders earn more than the workers (not, as in NYC, the other way around), and the system is newer and more automated. We can make the system more automated, but cannot change the other factors.
In Singapore, there is no room to grow, the country is on a island. The exercise tax to import a car is 100pct or more. The city discourages driving in the central area, In fact you have to pay an additional tax to get a sticker to drive downtown, during business hours. As I stated in a earlier post Singapore is the size of NYC less Staten Island with 2.9 people. There is a rail line there which is part of the Malaysian Rail system, and trains run up to the Thai Border. The trains are narrow gage track with standard cars, with one connection 1200 miles to Bangkok. Took the trip in88 and it was great.
Singapore transit makes money because fewer Singaporans drive
There is INCENTIVE to take the MRT. To drive around the CBD during peak hours, you have to have a PERMIT which costs BIG BUCKS to acquire. Many people have chosen NOT to acquire the permit as a result, and take the train.
As other posters have mentioned, the bus lines (and there are many of them) feed the trains, as opposed to running parallel with them.
--Mark
Here are some quick comparisons based on info from both the NYCT and SMRT web sites. Avg distance between stations: NYCT - 0.5 mi; SMRT - 1.0 mi. Top Speed: 50 mph for both. Avg Speed including stops: SMRT - 28 mph; NYCT 24 mph (exp), 18 mph (loc).
I think your friend is wrong. Singaporeans do believe in express service; they don't believe in local service. :-)
There was one other interesting cultural difference that I noticed from the SMRT web site. They spent $1.9 (US) upgrading the toilet facilities at their stations and increased the spending for toilet mainteneance by $725,000!
(There was one other interesting cultural difference that I noticed from the SMRT web site. They spent $1.9 (US) upgrading the
toilet facilities at their stations and increased the spending for toilet mainteneance by $725,000!)
I guess you can have free public toilets in a place where you can serve jail time for chewing gum on the subway.
Not just the subway - anywhere in Singapore!
--Mark
....and whatever you do, don't piss in an elevator. All elevators in Singapore have ammonia sensors, so if you take a leak in the elevator, it will stop, keep you locked in, until police arrive.
[....and whatever you do, don't piss in an elevator. All elevators in Singapore have ammonia sensors, so if you take a leak in the elevator, it will stop, keep you locked in, until police arrive.]
Heh heh, I like that idea. Though it could be awkward for parents traveling with accident-prone small children.
If a kid accidentally pees his pants, his pants will probably absorb it.
Now on the other hand, if someone is gonna intentionally pee in an elevator, they're probably gonna pee into the door cracks and think it's gonna just drop into oblivion....and hit those sensors.
I forget where I read it, but the story about the sensors does seem to be true, just like the gum chewing, etc. There was an article in our local newspapers about allthe "idisynchracies" in Singapore.
Must be a nice, clean place!!
I have been to Singapore at least 6 times in the last 16 years, and it is the cleanest place I have ever been in. Trash bins every 25 meters in the street. Stiff fines for litering. If they try those Wendy s Killers, in Singapore, before they hang them, they will give them a dozen lashes with a cane. They also hang drug dealers and users
We should do the same thing in the United States.
Except for marijuana, that should be legalized.
why?
Why what?
They don t allow gum, because of the weather which is hot and humid all year round, and it costs too much to clean it up, At least no gum on seats of trains and on floors to stick to you
They spent $1.9 upgrading toilets?
They should have spent a few cents more and gotten the $2 package.
Seriously, do you mean 1.9 million or billion? (hey, the latter one is certainly possible in New York, assuming there were toilets)
Sorry for the typo that was $1.9 million (US)
With New York contracting practices, and the lawyers and other sharp operators that know how to exploit them, $1.9 million might get you one urinal, which may or may not work.
With the 30-day revenue test of the R142 and R142A slated to begin in mid-June, I had an idea for an appropriate promotion: Begin these tests on June 9th, the first day of the subway series with the Yankees and the Mets. Now granted the tests are not beind done on the 4 or 7, but thats ok I think. What do fellow subtalkers think about this idea? -Nick
Two things. I'm not really a baseball fan, but I think that's a great idea. Secondly, which line or lines are the 142's being tested on. Please, please, PLEASE let it be the 2 or 5. Those are MY lines, baby.
The 2 and 6, and Pelham Bay Dave said they will start June 15th.
Tony: For a Piasan you are really out of it. Not a baseball fan? NOT A BASEBALL FAN?????? That's heresy in my book. And the 2 and the 5. That's like rooting for the Twins. What losers. In Brooklyn they never leave the tunnel and it's a dull ride all the way. I know they are elevated in the Bronx, but the Bronx is the slag heap of New York and it doesn't register. Even the Yankees want to leave. That ought to bring some more of you out. I'm high right now. Did you see what my Mets did to the Dodgers last night? I was there, dancing in the ailes and raising a fuss.
>>>the Bronx is the slag heap of New York and it doesn't register.<<<
Why must you always knock The Bronx?
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee: To get a reaction. That's why. But I am disappointed at what the Bronx has become. Back after the Second World War there were a lot of areas in the Bronx that were a pleasant sight to behold. That can't be said for most of the neighborhoods today.
there are many areas in the bronx that are still up to snuff. ur probably just not looking in the right places.
You've obviously never been to Riverdale. Or 75% of the rest of the Bronx either.
Can't blame him. More crime news come from the Bronx and/or Brooklyn than any other borough. (i.e. livery cab drivers killed this year)
They got you there Fred, Hey everybody pick on Fred, he lives in Arcadia Calif, world famous for Santa Anita Race Track, and Smog where you can t see 2 feet ahead. Lets get Fred
Hey Bob, I thought you were my friend. Five will get you ten that you'd never live in the Bronx, and neither would most of the others. And five will get you a hundred that just about any Bronxite would trade places with me if they could and live where I lived. My point is that I traveled on the #'s 1, 4, 5, 6, and 9 trains and was not impressed at what I saw. Give me some hints and some directions and I'll traverse those out of the way places in August and see just what a garden sport the Bronx is. Five will get you a thousand I'll stilll be unimpressed. BTW, the same does not hold for Brooklyn and Queens, my old stomping grounds.
I live in Brooklyn, I would much rather live in an active, dynamic place like The Bronx than some HORRIBLE suburban area like the Los Angeles Basin.
Brooklyn and The Bronx are similar, in fact, I find it shameful that Brooklyn is someplace you like, It gives Brooklyn a bad name that people of your ilk like it.
Fred, I bet Pigs never been West of the Del. River. Try going to Riverdale, Bronx Park is nice too, the 2nd best zoo in the world after San Diego. The Bronx got its bad rep during the 70s but is improving, The Northern part of the boro is ok near the city lines. I just like other people giving you hell, even know it all chazer at 17
Yes, I've been west of the Delaware River, just not to Los Angeles, and I don't regret not having been in a super-suburban wasteland.
I really don't get you, first you fight with him, then you defend him, what are you really thinking? Make up your mind!
Hey Pigs: Bob is my buddy, but we rag on each other in good nature. The difference, however, is you've never been to Southern California and have no business making a judgment unless you want to show your ignorance. I have been to the Bronx, and the places I saw left me totally unimpressed. I will try to see those sites that others have said I should see. Before, however, you make deragatory remarks about my state I'd suggest you know what your're talking about before you do. Right now you don't.
Pigs as Fred Says, we are buddies, we have our differances, we talk on the phone, we e mail, we kid all in good nature. Both of us lived in NYC and Southern California, so if I pick on him because he lives in Smog Central. I know what I am talking about. Like NYC Calif has it s good and bad. If I can come to NYC inAugust to be with Fred I would, but I am saving up for a High School Reunion in November.
[I live in Brooklyn, I would much rather live in an active, dynamic place like The Bronx than some HORRIBLE suburban area like the Los Angeles Basin.]
Now hold on Pigs, remember what I've said - more than once - about how New Yorkers naively believe the world ends at the Hudson River? Los Angeles is not a horrible area. It's the nation's second largest metropolitan area, with a population growth rate considerably in excess of New York's, has the nation's largest seaport, and overtook Chicago to be the biggest manufacturing area.
Yes, LA is every bit as diverse and dynamic as the New York area today. An the population density of Metro LA is higher than Metro New York.
The big difference? In LA that density is spread everywhere, so you drive in traffic jams. In NY it is more concentrated, so transit is possible, and some low density areas and green spaces are preserved.
Well said Larry and absolutely true. A New York subway system would never work in such a spread out place where I live. I do admit, however, a little envy that you guys have the subway and we don't.
And that, Fred, is what makes NYC so much better than LA.
.......my response is that after visiting the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california home to the fine museum pieces...
Los Angeles PCC trolleys .....yellow cars & trolleys & the HUGE PE Pacific Electric Railway cars collection......
We had here THE WORLDS GREATEST ELECTRIC RAILWAY SYSTEM ever over 2700 scheduled trains daily
including 5 trains thru the MOUNT LOWE RAILWAY this was the lines of the historical..............
PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY ( in southern california ).....the rest is history .......a sad historical ending .
************************************************************************************************************************************************
We need here to dig up all of the old diesel & internal combustion engine mfgs. the oil and gas companies...
then dig up all of our dead & sick former elected officials of every offfice dig up mayor yorty & the idiot before him
then line them all up against the wall shoot them all ....!!! & for what they did to the worlds largest rail system .............
Now if in southern california if you dont own a car with a valid drivers license you are screwed .......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
.......my response is that after visiting the ORANGE EMPIRE MUSEUM in peris california home to the fine museum pieces...
Los Angeles PCC trolleys .....yellow cars & trolleys & the HUGE PE Pacific Electric Railway cars collection......
We had here THE WORLDS GREATEST ELECTRIC RAILWAY SYSTEM ever over 2700 scheduled trains daily
including 5 trains thru the MOUNT LOWE RAILWAY this was the lines of the historical..............
PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY ( in southern california ).....the rest is history .......a sad historical ending .
************************************************************************************************************************************************
We need here to dig up all of the old diesel & internal combustion engine mfgs. the oil and gas companies...
then dig up all of our dead & sick former elected officials of every offfice dig up mayor yorty & the idiot before him
then line them all up against the wall shoot them all ....!!! & for what they did to the worlds largest rail system .............
Now if in southern california if you dont own a car with a valid drivers license you are screwed .......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
....you kept your rail system........thats what is better about nyc ......
Although it is true that a New York type subway would not work in Los Angeles, a Los Angeles type would. It would have to depend on park and ride with stations farther apart, and good local transportation in the central city areas. The idea being that people might drive a mile or two to get to a station, take the train to the central area, (downtown, Century City, the Wilshire corridor) and then have short haul busses to take them the few blocks to their final destination. This is similar to the idea of the San Francisco BART. Los Angeles already has the DASH buses in the central city and other centers which cost 25 cents to ride.
The one subway that has been built was accompanied by billions of dollars in cost over runs, and has very little ridership. Of course the ridership is low because the subway goes such a short distance. Those against the subway use the low ridership to argue that it should not be extended (and they have won).
The real problem is that the ones who can make it happen are the ones who would never use it in any case. i.e. those in limosines, and they cannot see the value of getting others off the road to make more room for their limosines.
There is suburban rail service called Metrolink, which is comfortable and affordable, but is under attack by the local bus riders who claim scarce transit resources are being taken from them to subsidize out of town yuppies.
A trimodal system wouldn't work, if the subway is to pick up people from Park and Ride, it should drop them off closer to their destination.
I also think New York should build Park and Ride like other cities. I'm sick of trying to find on-street parking, especially on those days (Thursday and Friday) when alternate side parking rules are in effect where I happen to park.
There has to be the short bus trip at the central end of the subway in Los Angeles, because Angelinos by and large will not accept a walk more than two blocks, particularly during hot summer days. The subay stops in downtown are at 1st Street and 7th Street. Although a healthy young person could walk halfway between them, on a hot day he/she would arrive at work soaked in sweat. I'm willing to pay the extra 25 cents and walk only half a block.
OK, I'm just saying that walking should be an option. Why are there busses on Manhattan avenues for example?
........mr pig you would probably get around the L.A. area faster walking that might be your only option .......
I thought that you were too young to vote, so how can you drive in NYCV You have to be 18 to drive in the CITY
No you don't.
Pigs is right. At one time, the minimum driving age in New York State was 18. It was lowered a long time ago; in the 70s, IIRC.
I don't think so.
We discussed this some time ago, Brighton Bob was referring to the restriction on driving with a Junior License or Permit (class DJ) in New York CITY. The point however is that I don't have a Junior License and that restriction doesn't apply to me.
I read that in order to drive with any licesnse in NYC you still have to be over 18, when did they change this, my nephew just turned 21, and he had to wait until he was 18 3 years, ago.???
The rule has nothing to do with age (at least directly), The rule applies to junior license holders, who cannot drive in New York City. I do not have a junior license, I have the same class of license that a 30 or 50 or 70 year old would have.
And, in addition, the law applies only to residents of New York State. Under the federal reciprocity legislation, ANY person who is licensed to operate a motor vehicle in another state or territory of the United States is permitted to do so in any state, providing they comply with the licensing and operational requirements (not after dark, for example, if they have a license that doesn't permit that) of the jurisdiction in which the license is issued. So a fifteen-year-old with a valid North Carolina learner's permit can operate a passenger car in New York City, provided that the vehicle is (1) licensed in North Carolina, and (2) their parent or a person in loco parentis (legal guardian, grandparent, etc.) is in the front seat with them (said person must also be a licensed operator in North Carolina).
Which is how my daughter was able to legally drive through the Lincoln Tunnel into NYC, down the west side, and (via the S.I. ferry) across Staten Island and Outerbridge Crossing two weeks after turning fifteen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thats the same for the point system in NY state. You only get points if you commit violations in NY state. Out of state is just a fine. Thats what I like about a NYS license. Others like NJ has points for out of state violations.
Mouse is right. Points and regulations only affect local residents of the state.
The problem with LA is that there is no real central downtown. Yest there is the downtown area, but a lot of companies are out in Century City, or Westwood. Yes the Red Line will be under Wilshire, but 1 third of the population of the city live in the Valley and the only way to get from there to Century City or Westwood is drive or the commuter bus. If more companies offer to pay for bus passes instead of parking they may get more people to use public transit. When I lived in Northridge and worked by the Airport and Century City. I did take the commuter bus. Drove 2 miles parked. I found that it only took 15 minutes longer each way and could rest and relax. But i was lucky, I worked 1 block from the bus stops.
>>>1 third of the population of the city live in the Valley and the only way to get from there to drive or the commuter bus<<<
This is where rapid transit would help. Especially from San Fernando Valley to to not only downtown, but also the west side, following the route of the San Diego (405) Freeway. This probably will not happen in my lifetime unless something occurs to make driving no longer acceptable.
.....well see thats what should have been done but that was too much like doing it right .......
For example building the rail systems to run with the freeways ( like the 105 ) with the green line........
Instead they displace people from thier homes shops stores & made people even homeless & bankrupt ...
to put a HOLE in the ground .........the red line subway ............
this red line was supposed to tunnel thru the mountain into the valley but it should have been built above ground
like the blue line does most of its route. wouldnt you agree on this ??
The problem with the Blue Line is it was built on the cheap with too may grade crossings. When they laid it out they must have been thinking "trolley cars" but these trains are too fast and too frequent for grade level crossings.
Of course there are some who would say that since these grade crossings are in the poorer areas safety was not considered to be so important.
It was easy to build on existing right of way, it follows the old PE Long Beach Line almost street by street except in Downtown LA. A good West Side line also would be along Exposition Blvd also on the old SP Right of Way
The Green line, "the train to nowhere" was not so well thought out either. One end is in Norwalk, and the other end is at a minature golf course. It was built to service the aerospace industries near LAX, running through blue collar bedroom communites, but the area had the misfortune to lose most of the aerospace industry (as part of the peace dividend at the end of the cold war) just before the line was completed. At least railfans never have to worry about getting a seat on this line.
The line runs close to LAX but there is no connection to the airport.
BTW It is about two miles from where I live to the Norwalk park and ride. I could take the the Green line, transfer to the Blue line to get to downtown Los Angeles, and transfer to the Red Line to get to work. Two light rail and one subway trip each day, just what a real railfan wants!
Considering the cost of gasoline, and the wear and tear on my car, the cost of commuting on the train would be roughly equal to driving the stop and slow freeway, but I have yet to ride on either the Green line or the Blue line, and my only ride on the Red Line was when it first opened and they were giving free rides.
Old Tom: Glad to hear you're a Californian. Two miles from the Green Line. It wouldn't be near Downey where you live, would it? I live there for 15 years and graduated from Downey High many moons ago.
is your high school near atlantic avenue ??
Salaam: Downey High School is on Firestone Blvd, about two blocks from Lakewood Blvd. You might be thinking of South Gate High School. That is also on Firestone but very close to Atlantic Avenue. BTW. are you a Californian? If you are, let me know. I didn;t think you were.
He is your neighbor in Pasadena Fred
Thanks for telling me NOW. If you knew why didn't you tell me. You Hawaian Yankee fans are something else. Well don't get sunburned.
I did badly in Israel.
Doesn't his name say Los Angeles?
Well, then again, your name says Sea Beach and you don't live there (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Thank you Pigs. And you know that by now the Sea Beach and Fred Peritore are almost synonomous. BTW, in case you haven't heard, I will be looking over those nice areas in the Bronx I been told exist.
Few have mentioned Riverdale, you should see that first.
Then go to City Island, this is one of those unique places where ONE wouldn't even believe he was in New York City.
OK........when I drive first south on LOS ROBLES avenue then it truns into ATLANTIC avenue all the way to LONG BEACH
Now ROSEMEAD BLVD tirns into LAKEWOOD BLVD thru DOWNEY right ?? just thought i saw your high school there !!
I live in Pasadena California I am also listed in the Subway Vidieos section on NYC subway resources .....
You did see my high school. It is just few blocks from that intersection. Did you go to school in Pasadena?
Yes sir Mr Sea Beach...John Muir High School an Alumni since 1970 graduated in Pasadenas famous ROSE BOWL ...1970..,
My father graduated from flushing high school back in the 1930s near the # 7 train in flushing .....
There has been times i drive thru and into the Downey area to do work or business etc...
Muir 1970? And you don't consider yourself a Californian|? Come on now. You are a Californian. I live in Arcadia and teach at Arcadia High School. We are neighbors. If I had known that earlier I would have laid of when you got carried away----as I also have a tendency to do. Have a good day neighbor.
Hope you two enjoy Breathin the beautiful brown air of the Pasadena-Arcadia-Monrovia Area
Bob: I just got through with my 5.1 mile run, and I'm breathing fine. It is warm but sunny and the sky is blue. You sure you're not talking about Honolulu?
Nope, 82 degrees humidity 60 pct, breeze at 20-25 miles off the Ocean. No smog, just some Vog from the Volcano over South part of the Big Island
Sorry Fred, I'm not a Californian. I'm a New Yorker, Yankee Fan, who has been living temporarily in California since 1963. Do you think I qulify for the New York Senate race?
.....I was not born in california either !!!!......When I lived in Atlanta ( temporary ) I told them I was born in SOUTHERN ,..California.....Cali...!!!!
I too have been living temporary in Pasadena California since 1960- 1991 with the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM ........in my blood.....
I was born on the R-100 & have been addicted to the RAILFAN WINDOW ever since !!!!!!
I must seek professional help with my lifelong SUBWAY-DRUG-ADDICTION.......man I am in trouble......!!!!!
New York City will always be my home !!!.....The good the bad & the ugly of it... However , never tell this to someone from the south ..
Good God Salaam, you too? Boy you and Old Tom should hook up and trade stories. How can anyone live out here since the early 60's and not consider himself a Californian? To me that seems strange. I also have the New York subway in my bones and I have never even rode on the Red Line in LA. But I'm a proud Californian who has lived here since October, 1954. I guess everybody is different.
....Oh yes .....to the last 2 two threads by mr Sea Beach ....I have the new york subway railfan window in my blood........
& proud of it !!! New York will always be my home. I am living temporary in Pasadena California ......
You see I was born in New York every time i GO HOME I holler at the top of my lungs.....I AM HOME ....!!!!
I enjoy visiting New York, too, but when I'm there I'm cognizant of the fact that I'm a visitor and feel that in my bones. I love the city but I know that I'm far removed from the time when the city was my home. Funny how reactions differ with people. What boroughs did you live in and what are your favorite trains?
my grandparents lived on murray street in flushing near the # 7.... my mother lived at 178 waverly place in the village .......
When I lived in LA I was a Temp Californian from 1958-1995, Once a New Yorker Always a New Yorker. Old Tom and I Think a Lot. As I stated the best defination of a Yankee is any one born within 100 Miles of Times Square, even though they may be Mets Fans. Even herew in Hawaii I am a New Yorker, and I am said to say, the Only NY Style Deli in Hawaii, Bernards NY Deli in Honolulu closed last month, Bernard went back to Long Island.
It is one thing to be proud of being a native New Yorker and respecting the city of your birth and cherishing the memories you had as a kid growing up. It is another to leave the place 20, 30, 40 years ago and still claim New York as your home. I guess it can be done but NOT BY ME!!!!!!!!!!! I am a proud Californian. Here is where I reached maturity, had my teaching career, bought a home, married and raised a daughter, and became a successful baseball coach. California is home. Home. Home!!!!!!!! You guys are really strange!
The only time I claim to be a Yankee is when the Civil War is mentioned and fellow historians take up sides. Then I am an unreconstructed Radical Republican Yankee to the bone.
once a new yorker always a new yorker
And once a Hoosier, always a Hoosier (and a Notre Dame football bleeder for life), even though it's been 33 years since I left South Bend.
Or as Regie Miller says a Hick
Temporarily sisnce 1963? And you don't consider yourself a Californian? Well I guess that's possible. Within two summers, I was a full fledged Californian by 1956. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But how can you be living here for 37 years and still not consider yourself one of us? BTW, 1963 was the most favorite year of my life.
Hey Fred, 63 was a great year of my life. I broke my leg playing baseball on July 7, and after 2 weeks, I spent every day at Santa Monica Beach Old Station 2 near the old Pacific Ocean Park. Well almost every day, Sundays I went with other friends at times.
Hey, were buddies again. Sorry, though, you had to break a leg to enjoy POP. Wouldn't have been better to enjoy all that with a sound leg. BTW, July 7, 1963 was a Sunday. The day before my team, the Giants, lost only their second game of the season. It was our next to last game of the Pony League season, and I got so mad I was thrown out of the game by an umpire named Dave Anderson. We won our last game and finished 18-2. 1963 was a big year for me, my first baseball coaching championship, I learned to swim, I got my first A in a history class, and embarrassing as it now sounds, I had my first real date that year. Yes, I was 22 but a late starter. Don't worry, once I got the hang of it I made up for lost time and eventually married the perfect girl for me.
Yes it happened at aprox 11.11 on the 7th day of the 7th month. A Omen, killed my baseball career in Triple A
Fred, I Know that when I got here anyone who had been here more than two years was considered a native Californian, and it was really hard to find anyone who was born in California.
I still have trouble getting used to the way people talk here. You know, they all pronounce the silent "r" in words like "New York", "New Jersey" and "water". And they fail to pronounce the phantom "r" in words like "boil" (correctly pronounced "berl") and "oil" ("erl").
Once you attune your ear to the strange accent you find the people are pretty nice. Have a good day!!
Thanks Tom, that was a very nice post.
And roof(pronounce ruf, Orange, pronounced ore-ange. and they think every one in NYC says toidy toid and toid. I thought that was a New Jersey saying. Or Boid.
Say, have either one of you retained even a trace of a New York accent?
Steve: You never completely get rid of a New York accent. I have lost almost all of mine, but there are times if you listen carefully or when I'm talking fast that you can pick it up. Bob doesn't sound like a New Yorker on the phone. A few words maybe. When you live away from the city awhile you do pick up some other speech patterns. I say Ore ange and Ore gon, and I pronounce my r's.
I never had a New York accent, I've always pronounced all of my Rs properly and I also say OR-enj instead of AW-renj
My speech has been tempered over the years, having lived in different parts of the country. My short A still has a bit of an Indiana twang, while some words have a New Jersey flavor ("uoff" instead of "off"). Coloradans have their own nuances. Coffee almost sounds like "cahfee"; "good" becomes "gid".
I know people who were born and raised in Chicago, for instance, and have no trace of a Chicago twang.
Most linguists will tell you that the so called "NYC Accent" of bugs bunny fame is virtually non-existent in NYC today. You can find it about 30-40 miles out of NYC in the Suburbs as it moved out with the "white-flight" of the 60s and 70s.
Peace,
ANDEE
New Yorkers Don t have a accent, the rest of the English Language Does.
Bet you a jar of Best Food New Yorkers have an accent.
Yes we do but, it is not the same, toidy towd and towd type accent it was years ago.
Peace,
ANDEE
I still say New Yorkers Natives speak perfect English and all the rest of the woild has the accent, duh
Surprise! Even Rosie O'Donnell, Charles Rangel, and Rosie Perez have New York accents. But New Yorkers are so close to it (which is normal) they don't even notice.
The "toidy toid and toid" is actually that many of the "r" and the "oi" sounds are pronouned like U-Y (it's hard to write it), so r appears to be oi, and oi appears to be r. A similar thing can seen in Japanese people's spoken English. They have a sound in Japanese which is halfway between "r" and "l", so they use the same sound for both letters in English. We think, erroneously that they say r for l and l ro r, when really they use the mid-point sound for both.
Continuing, New Yorkers also spit out their d, t, and k sounds, never pronounce the unaccented "r", pronounce the short e very far along the long-a->short-e continuum, drag out their "aw" sounds (like becaaaauuuuse) and use strange phrases like "Onaconna you we're lost", "You first have to go to the bank??", instead of "Because of you we're lost" and "You haven't gone to the bank yet?" And of course, the world-famous, "Wheyisgoin" for (pardon my southern) Where are you all going?
Now nobody get mad now, y'heah?
Fagetaboutit Already!
I still have a little of mine, and So Does Fred, even if he does not admit it, certain sounds
Who says I don't admit it? I said yesterday that when I speak rapid fire you can sort of tell, and there are times if you listen carefully even when I'm not speaking quickly you can detect it. I don't believe you ever lose it completely, but when you compare it to someone who has lived in New York all of his life the difference is striking.
Fred You still talk fast like a New Yorker
Well maybe another New Yorker can notice that better than others. No problem. If someone doesn't like it, that's their problem, right?
You can always tell them your speech is like the Sea Beach Express of yesteryear.:-)
it dosent matter to me as long as I understnd you post I could care less about peoples word processing skills ......
Leave well enough alone ......
I've been known to speak fast, nothing like John Masheeta (sp), and I'm not even a native New Yorker! Must be all those R-10 joyrides of my youth days.:-)
Well, you said you did live in New York, didn't you? If you did, then you know it doesn't take very long to pick up those speech patterns. And what's wrong with that?
I heard of people dropping Rs, but I NEVER heard of the phantom R except at the end of words.
Check the re-runs of "All in the Family"
Or Ed Norton!!!
All filmed in LA
Same with NYPD Blue. And remember Kojak? It is supposed to be New York, yet they film it in Los Angeles. You ever heard of a show about California filmed in New York? NEVER!!!!!!! Why? Because California rules. Take that Bob buddy, and you, too, Sarge, and you, too, Pigs.
I never insulted the state of California.
Pigs: Then I stand corrected and we're friends again.
No, it's because Californians are too cheap to use the real thing, and too dumb to realize that people DO notice the difference :-)
Now we Southerners, and the folks from New York, are neither cheap NOR dumb ...
(Sorry Fred, I just gotta pull your chain!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Said the Cracker from Carolina, I can compare I lived in both places, both have good and bad. The studios are in Calif, so they film there, but if you notice, a lot of city pictures are now shot in Canada, The only part of LA that looks like a Eastern City is downtown LA and they stopped shooting there because it is used 7 days a week.
The ultimate has got to be a movie which is set in Chicago, yet streetcar tracks are visible in several scenes. Duh! Streetcars disappeared from Chicago's streets in 1958. Those shots were done in Toronto.
I stumbled across Cagney and Lacey the other night on TNT, and the opening titles feature a brief snippet of the two of them pursuing someone through an IRT train. The car is an R-17; I did notice a porthole window in the storm door. No graffiti, but the door interiors are that purplish gray of that era.
Best "What's that doing there?" with streetcar tracks is the Robocop TV series. The city's supposed to be Detroit (in the unspecified future, like Max Headroom), but there are scenes where Robo is driving in his police car and you see streetcar tracks and an CLRV passes sometimes.
Yep, the exteriors were filmed in Toronto.
Anon: I knew it would get a rise out of some of you, so this retort by you and others is not unexpected. I'm a good sport about it, and so there is no hard feelings on my part. Go ahead and pull the chain.
Don't forget the funny way they pronounce words with "au" or "aw" in them out there (daughter, awful, etc.) They pronounce them like "ah" instead of "aw". People also eat "AW-renges" out there instead of oranges and they get "MAIR-ried" instead of married. An earthquake is a "HAWR-ribble" thing there, but we'd say it's horrible. Basically they reverse the pronuciations of "au/aw" and "or" from the way we say them here. People in most of Connecticut talk that way too even though they don't in most of Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New York. I wonder why...
Since it seems that you do live in the Los Angeles area ( I live in the silly big little town of pasadena ) etc.... I totally agree
with all of your last post....I shot still pictures all over the RED LINE when it first opened back in 1984 these pics will
appear on this subway page as soon as I can get them loaded into a photo cd.
The GREEN LINE correctly stated by you ""the train to nowhere"" runs only ONE train even during rush hour !!! There is
a airport station with a connector gillig type school buses "#G" to the airport LAX and the station has a split off that should
have been built into the airport but was not !! you can see the start up construction that should have continued into LAX .!!
In 1991 when the BLUE LINE first opened I rode it and looked down to see the RED LINE ""the subway to nowhere "
being built There is a webpage two of them dedicated to the pasadena to union station BLUE LINE construction plan
The other webpage is called "" no BLAG"" BLUE LINE at grade!!!....It is the same problems that the BLUE LINE has in the
city of LONG BEACH washington boulevard near downtown compton etc......
The real problem with the BLUE LINE is why there is no connection to the long beach BLUE LINE when it is finally built.!!??
Also where will the pasadena BLUE LINE cars be stored & why no ""thru connection into the 7 th street metro center"" etc.....
all the way to LONG BEACH - one BLUE LINE train all the way one line only ......????!!!!
I think they screwed this whole system up & a brand new rail system at that !!! Remember the pacific electric railway that
Yorty & those before him ripped out ?? Finally the RED LINE ""the subway to nowhere" which is non compatible with the
BLUE & GREEN lines what { IDIOT } do we shoot who thought that up ?? & have you seen the TAJ MAJHAL
luxury tower they built for themselves downtown ?? instead of building simple rail stations that work !!
For Pete's sake Salaam, why didn't you say you lived in Pasadena? I would have been a little more tolerant of your diatribes if I had known you were a fellow Golden Stater. I lived right next door in Arcadia? Did you know that. Now that I know we're neighbors, I'll have to be a little more tolerant when you go off the deep end. Speaking of the deep end, I caught some hell when I bagged on the Bronx, but there were half-dozen or so who offered suggestions that would change my mind. I'm takaing them up on that when I get to New York for a two day stay on August 16.
.........we have to meet sometime ...then you can judge for yourself ..( maybe not just when the pasadena blue line is finished )
Yes I live in the norhwest territorry of Pasadena California my address & phone number is listed in
this pages section under Salaam Allahs SUBWAY VIDIEOS.......& if you really want to find out how easy going
I really am my phone number is 1 ( 626) 794 -4503 .....& I am listed in the pasadena white pages .....!!!!
I too have "" bagged on other cities"" so chill out and have one of those FRAPPS an starbucks coffee at hastings ranch.....!!
I am planning PROJECT REDBIRD this fall two weeks this october 2000 ......!!!!!!!!
Reading all the posts about how bad the transit system in L.A.is why didn't the officials of the areas involved get the people living in the areas to help plan this system with meetings...hell one could design a rapid transit system on sim city 2000 and come up with a better one that is now in service....duh
.........Stop making sense..............!!!!!!!!!
Karl;
Rapid Transit was planned to death in Los Angeles. I was hearing about the plans for rapid transit ever since the planning for the 1984 Olympics. It was originally planned to have some kind of subway in place for the 1984 Olympics. After all Mexico City built a subway in one year for the 1968 Olympics, and it has survived several stron earthquakes since then.
To start with many millions of dollars and years were spent on preliminary studies of where earthquake faults were and how big an earthquake might be expected and how a subway should be built to withstand earthquakes. (Keep in mind until they could do computer modeling in the '70s the height limit for buildings was 13 stories)
Because of the fear of earthquakes and seeping methane gas in the area of the La Brea Tar Pits, the subway was overengineered and when construction finally started there were cost overruns into the billions and scandals about substandard construction.
Because the users of any public transportation in Los Angeles tend to be the poor and politically powerless, when the big cost overruns were reported there was a hue and cry not spend any more money by those who did not think they would ever use public transportation. The result was a vote not to spend any more money on any subways.
The true visionaries realized it would take 20-30 years to build a efficient rapid trnsit system in L.A., and the first line was to be the camel's nose in the tent. Unfortunately not enough was built to be useful before it was stopped. Until traffic completely deadlocks on the freeways, it cannot be sold politically.
Isee your point however P.Ewas one of the largest rail systems in the country,what erks me is that the people let that massive rail system slip through there fingers,one could only wonder how the system would be today if the lines were still intact today,ok so there were rail crossings but so did the L.I.R.R.and they got rid of that problem by elevating the line why not the P.E.i know,i know it's political.....
>>>>>what erks me is that the people let that massive rail system slip through there fingers<<<<<<
Rather than slipping through their fingers the rail systems were grabbed from their hands by GM, Firestone, and their friends.
THE OLD NATIONAL CITY LINES THING. From what I read it was never proven in a court of law. You forgot Chevron Oil
Bob, it was proven in court GM had to pay a $5,000.00 fine for its part in the conspiracy. Who says crime does not pay?
$5,000. They give away free toys for that little.
$5,000. They give away free toys for that little. How many cars did GM give to the county or the courts?
what? that fact that GM WAS THE ENGINE behind all the trolly lines in L.A , NYC, and other places getting torn up and replaced with THEIR GAS GUZZLING, POLUTANT SPEWING ROADHOGES THAT GOT ALMOST 2 MILES TO THE GALLON ROLLING ROACHMOTELS?
National City Lines never were in LA, mostly California, El Paso Texas, does anyone else know where National City Lines ran local transit?
NCL was most certainly in Los Angeles, who do you think Los Angeles Transit Lines was?
NCL also controlled Baltimore Transit, St. Louis Public Service, Philadelphia Transit, Key System Transit Lines and a host of bus only systems in many cities in the United States.
I SAID IN CALIFORNIA, I DID NOT KNOW WHERE ELSE, ALSO THE KEY SYSTEM IN OAKLAND, AND MANY OF THE LOCAL MUNICIPAL LINES IN LA LIKE PASADENA AND GLENDALE
.........well one upon a time our rail system was larger than new york has in subway track mileage alone !!!
that mayor yorty was not good to us at all & the other "" criminals in office before him ""........( my comment )..!!
You don't have to SHOUT, I'm not hard of reading.
All seriousness aside, NCL purchase of a rail operator always resulted in the eventual elimination of rail operations. NCL didn't convert "willy-nilly", they always operated their properties in a fiscally prudent manner, with stock dividends being paramount. Older equipment was replaced with modern equipment, which was (most) always GM Buses.
Many NCL properties with rail managed to survive long enough to have the property make it into public ownership. Usually the new authority would kill the last rail line, usually with new GM buses bought with Federal transit money.
National City Lines never were in NY, mostly California, El Paso Texas, does anyone else know where National City Lines ran local transit?
like i said before the pico station anint marching st all..... & right next to the STAPELS WELFARE DOLLARS BUILT...
I read somewhere that they were in Philly. But they left a large number of the trolly lines there alone, even bought PCC cars for them, until they sold the system to SEPTA in 1964. SEPTA was the one that really went to work on the trolly lines.
Where did you read the PTC was a National City Line Company?
I saw it on some website dealing with Philadelphia's trolleys. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was called. I read that SEPTA purchased the lines from NCL in the mid-'60s.
"Because of the fear of earthquakes and seeping methane gas in the area of the La Brea Tar Pits, the subway was overengineered and when construction finally started there were cost overruns into the billions and scandals about substandard construction."
Whoa! To quote Foghorn Leghorn, "Hold on, I say, hold on a minute there!" There was subway CONSTRUCTION in Los Angeles in the 1980s?? Not just plans, but shovels actually cut earth? This is the first I've heard of such a thing. How much got built before funding was cut off? Where? Was any of the work incorporated into the present system?
Or are you referring to the present Red Line subway?
John;
I don't think I indicated that there was construction in the '80s, just studies & plans.
Former L.A. Mayor Tom Bradley and the downtown business interests were the big boosters of rapid transit. The Westside political interests, largely made up of people who could never imagine themselves on public transportation, have been against rapid transit because of the high costs of building the system.
The plan called for 40 miles of subway and 190 miles of light rail. We now have about 15 miles of subway (the Red Line) and 40 miles of light rail (the Blue Line to Long Beach & the Green Line from Norwalk to the LAX area).
Once subway construction was started, it was the largest public works project on the West Coast, and there was a rather unseemly scramble to get the contracts for the work. There were million dollar cost over runs on the contracts, scandals regarding sub standard work and unsafe working conditions after fatal accidents. The contractors seemed to be saying you have to expect a few deaths in this large a construction job. There was even a time when Hollywood Boulevard was sinking into the subway tunnel.
Now that Tom Bradley is gone, the Westsiders seem to have the upper hand. A law was recently passed denying any more funds for subway construction. With no local funds there will be no federal funds and no further subway building. The last station on the Red Line is due to open in two weeks. The only thing that might be built in the forseeable future is a light rail line from Downtown to Pasadena.
....I agree 100 ..% with your last post ........HOLD YOUR BREATH ON THE PASADENA BLUE LINE.........
Which will not connect to the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE...........god damn it ......!!!!
THERE are sevral web-sites on this one is called NO BLAG blue line at grade anti pasadena blue line site ??
By the way did you find the anti Los Angeles mta site yet ?? ......... lamta ??????
How hard and how much would it cost to convert the Red Line in Los Angeles to light rail. Then maybe the proposed branches could be completed on the surface for far less money. Plus since there's going to be "two Blue Lines," why not give the new line to Pasadena a different color like orange, brown, yellow or purple. You have to admit, it's really stupid of the LA MTA not to connect the Pasadena line to the existing Blue Line. Which geniuses decided not to connect these two lines?
I agree with what you last posted 100% ......!!! ALL THREE 3 systems should have been the SAME TYPE OF RAIL SYSTEM... Long ( before ) the first shovel was dug many of us transit riders here.....well we tried everything but we were ignored etc...& the RTD-MTA of los angeles didnt give a rats ass what we the transit riders thought...Even talk radio did not make them budge one inch ..
Many of us here bitched and moaned and flooded downtown with our complaints etc......R -142 # 2 they did not care.
And these Los Angeles M.T.A. Taj Majhal Officials did what the hell they wanted to do .....! Now many of them
have been ""rewarded with kickback money FAT RETIREMENTS - PENSIONS & MEDICAL CARE & GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR LIFE !!.
when i was shooting the 2 5 7 redbird lines I only had less than a short 6 days to "" hurry up & shoot as much as I could ""
Way back in the planning stage it was anticipated that the Red Line would have too much usage for light rail, and it had to be underground because it was in the most travelled areas. If the Red Line were to be completed as planned, I think the volume of travel would support the heavy equipment. There was aso some consideration of obtaining Federal funds, and the subway rather than light rail brought the money.
Now that the equipment is here (in excess of the amount needed) no one sees a reason to convert the existing line to light rail.
..........you see we knew this when we PACKED in to the ""hearing halls "" to tell these rtd-mta idiots this !!!
AGREE WITH YOUR LAST POST 100 % .....!!!!!
If they converted the Red Line to light rail it could be compatible with the Blue and Green lines. The Red Line subway cars could then be used for some kind of service here in New York, maybe some kind of Metrorail service. We've discussed how we think the LIRR should be extended from its Atlantic Avenue terminal to Lower Manhattan to relieve overcrowding on the Brooklyn subway lines. The LA cars could used in this kind of service and since they're the same dimensions as the R46s and R68s so they can operate in existing subway tunnels such as the Montague or Rutgers St Tunnels.
how are you going to...... SHIP ......all of this stuff to new york ?? & where are you going to store it ??
I know, it sounds nuts. What I would like to know is how many "surplus" cars exist, because we know the Red Line is going to stay the way it is. I'm sure there's not a very large number of them. I guess the cars could be shipped by boat from Los Angeles to New York Harbor or maybe cross-country by rail then brought to Coney Island Yard by truck.
Even if you assume that Los Angeles has 50% more cars than it needs, how many cars do you think that is? According to a local unofficial web site the total fleet is 30 double cars. That's small potatoes compared to NY. There is only 17.5 miles of track in Los Angeles.
Assuming there are 10 excess cars, why would NYC want to buy and transport 10 cars that are different from the rest of their fleet? These are Italian made cars, which are compatible with the track and voltage of NYC lines, but what a maintenance headache to have to have parts on hand for these ten cars.
When these cars were ordered it was for the mild climate of Southern California. I do not know if these cars would hold up under the severe operating conditions in the Northeast.
The transportation is the least of the problems. The could be loaded on rail flat cars, or sent by ship (after all they got here from Italy), but unless NYCT were desparate for rolling stock, I doubt anyone would want these cars.
BELEIVE ME YOU CAN HAVE THE ENTIRE RED LINE IT IS A USELESS PIECE OF JUNK THAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT HERE EXCEPT FOR THE DOWNTOWN SECTIONS ONLY..
THE THREE RAIL TRANSIT LINES SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE LIKE DALLAS TEXAS SAN DIEGO & THE MUNI SYSTEM IN SAN FRANCISCO
IF ALL THREE LINES MY BROTHER HAD BEEN THE SAME WITH THE SAME BLUE LINE A COMPLETE THRUWAY FROM LONG BEACH ALL THE WAY TO PASADENA THEN ALL THREE LINES WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD THING..
NOT TO MENTION THAT THE GREN LINE DOES NOT GO TO THE AIRPORT AT ALL !!!
( PLEASE EXCUSE THIS POST I AM USING MY SONS COMPUTER & HIS SCREEN IS HARD TO SEE )..
this month on the 24 th all day free ride on the ""SUBWAY TO NOWHERE"".........................
Man I am so happy I could just sh__t......!!!!!!
Even if they converted the Red Line to light rail equipment, they would have to connect the tracks and run overhead wiring (no room n the tunnel?) to make all three systems interconnected. There is absolutely no political will to spend any money on anything related to the subway at this point, so it does not matter how rational such a suggestion might be, it is not going to happen.
Sounds like the good old days when PE was standard gauge and LARY was narrow gauge. The selling point of a one seat ride is lost.
Basically the PE was for longer distance travel and the LATL was short hall. If I remember correctly the longest LATL Line was either the 5 from Hawthorne to Union Station or the 7 S Broadway Eagle Rock, none longer then aprox 15 miles.
If they converted the Red Line to light rail it could be compatible with the Blue and Green lines. That should be a pretty good reason. All of the Red Line subway cars could then be used for some kind of service here in New York, maybe some kind of Metrorail service.
We've discussed how we think the LIRR should be extended from its Atlantic Avenue terminal to Lower Manhattan to relieve overcrowding on the Brooklyn subway lines. The LA cars could used in this kind of service and since they're the same dimensions as the R46s and R68s so they can operate in existing subway tunnels such as the Montague or Rutgers St Tunnels.
the RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE .........( as it has been ""coined"" & called ) is a HEAVY SUBWAY third rail type..
the BLUE & GREEN lines have been """coined""" as { light rail} ........... ONLY the blue & green are compatible !!!
Now can the RED SUBWAY CARS be custom hooked up with a trolley type pole at the top.......??
Well........dont they have convertables in chicago & boston ??.........
Why instead didnt they build ALL THREE rail systems ""ALIKE" & or the same ??...............!!!!!!!!!
....Just another comment please ......I would like it very much if more subtalkers join this forum that do not live on the
EAST COAST only & that we see more diversity than "" just a new york & new jersey" rail discussion board only .....!!
I love the NYC subway system dont get me wrong there but I love to hear from other ..............................................
RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE etc.... & the good the bad and the ugly about them not just NYC & NJ, only ...........
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......................................,,,!
I am on the list and I live in Hawaii, even though I spent most of my life in LA
....beautiful place was last there in 1967 man!!!! hawaii was beautiful .......!!!!! it blew me away !!!
I have been a Colorado resident since September of 1980. Lived back East for 13 1/2 years and was a frequent visitor of NYC; never lived there.
There is a free shuttle bus connection to the airport, but it takes 2 trains to get from Downtown. Maybe if they would run a connection from the blue to the green lines and run a exp it mayn help, but I doubt it
on the green line at the airport -aviation station there is a ""breakaway section" where construction to tie into LAX
could be built it these MTA IDIOTS had any sense etc.....IF it would have been done right the first time....
go to the los angeles rail section on this subway page and you will see where I took pictures of this .....( example)...
The Red Line is Heavy Rail, The Blue Line is Light Rail a difference, o9f course if you put a light rail over the 405 freeway, the Rich Nimbys in Brentwood, Bel-Air, Encino would object for the rif raf passing thru, but it would help their domestic help to get to them. The perfect light rail would be along the old SP Van Nuys branch from the end of the Red Line in No Hollywood, to connect with the Metro Link in Chatswort, with a stationabout every mile for bus connections.
He was attacking my city, I had to attack his.
I somehow felt there would be a response from you.
Actually, I was really talking about suburbia in general, and not Los Angeles specifically.
As for my Long Island comment ("if I wanted to see suburbia, I'd go to Long Island), it's just the south shore of Nassau and West Suffolk that sucks (except for the beaches, Long, Jones). The rest of Long Island isn't bad.
Pigs: I love New York City. I look forward to visiting it every chance I get. I am a native New Yorker and proud of it. I just don't care for what the Bronx has become. Even you have to admit it has gone down a lot in the past 45 years. It's a shame but it is true. I remember when the Grand Concourse was a treat. Can we say that today?
Years ago I took the #5 to Dyre Av. It's nice up there. And the Dyre Av. spur is mostly embankment and open-cut, like the Brighton and Sea Beach. If you haven't been there and plan on subway touring, try it.
Thank you, Mr Q Brightliner, I will take you up on this. I once rode the #5 to 241st Street, but never the spur. I must do this. As you can probably guess, I like open cut subways. Even the Brighton. Are you listening Bob?
Yes I am listening, and I told you I even rode the N Train from Boro Hall to Coney Island last month, even though the R and the N Left 36th St the same time and arrived at 59th the same time, and the N was on the express track, an no work was going on
What happened is that so many people wanted to ride the Sea Beach that the overflow crowds kept the doors open longer than usual. The more people getting on, the longer it takes for the train to leave. You see my influence is insidious. Tell them about how great a line the Sea Beach is and the crowds flock to see for themselves. Later they tell themselves why they hadn't known that in the first place and why they listened to blowhards like you talking up the has-been Brighton Line. Have a great day friend.
The N was Empty, everyone got off at DeKalb, walked across the Platform to the Scenic D Brighton Line, but I thought what the hell, I will take the Brighton Back which I did to report to Fred.
Thanks Pete for showing Pigs that my area is not a wasteland. And I promise to look up those nice areas of the Bronx when I visit in August.
Pigs: You're wet behind the ears to come out and say such a ridiculous thing. Brooklyn and the Bronx are not the same, and any person not wet behind the ears would know it. The people are different, the recreation activities are different and the subways are different. For an old native New Yorker to hear you say something like that makes me think you have a screw loose somewhere. If you are a proud Brooklynite, as I once was, you would never stoop to say that your borough is just like any other. For that matter, just how old are you? Maybe maturity and experience will make up for a lack of tact. Anyway, have a good day.
It's obvious you're just getting pissed off by all the people attacking your stupid, empty comments, so you decide to take the low road and attack me based on age, the only thing you can put against me here.
Pigs, some how at least every couple of weeks you antagonize someone, think before you speak, and we all shall be better persons.
I will not sit and be idle if people choose to spout half-truths and lies. I will do the same in return!
All concerned: Please knock it off! If you people want to insult each other, that's fine, but there's nothing that anybody else here can get out of it.
David
NEY NOW!!!!
>>>And five will get you a hundred that just about any Bronxite would trade places with me if they could and live where I lived.<<<
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Not on your life. You'd lose that bet.
Peace,
ANDEE
I live in a nice section of Long Island but even I would live in the worst section of the Bronx before I'd even consider living in such a lousy state as California!!!!
I'm happy you live in a nice area of Long Island. Anywhere near Selden? California is not for everyone, I guess. But I love everything about it. That does not mean I hate New York. Quite the contrary. But I did not like what I saw of the Bronx, that;s all.
What exactly did you not like . Bronx 2000 is not what Bronx 1977 was! Charlotte Gardens today, Charlotte Ghetto then.I would walk down that street today. Back then I would have had problemes going there with president Carter.
You keep on saying you did not like what you saw. WELL?
Ok Andee. Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't trade places either, so we're both happy, eh?
I bet they would trade places with me When I was in NYC last year and last month, when I showed my DL they said boy are you lucky, I would trade places with you. ALOHA, now, to praise LA. Where else in this country can a person go surfing in the morning, skiing in the afternoon, and have dinner in a Casino, all with in 100 miles of each other. LA
Glad for you to give my state a well deserved plug, Bob. I owe you one.
Your state, I did not know you were Gray Davis.
Bob: You still don't get it. When I think of California what comes to mind is me, not Gray Davis. BTW, I think he has done a hell of a job so far. He will be the first Democrat I vote for since 1986.
He had too after 16 years of the Duke and Wilson to clean up the mess they made
Now let's not get carried away. Governor Wilson inherited a mess and left the state with a bulging surplus and a fabulous economy. I met Pete several times and liked the man. I thought a lot of him, even though I didn't care for some of that Prop 187 stuff. Fires, earthquakes, a bad economy, floods, etc, greeted him. He left the state a lot better than he found it when he assumed office.
But who did he follow, The Duke, same party, sos
You weren't impressed by what you saw from the various Bronx els? Well, generally speaking, the neighborhoods through which els pass in ALL the boroughs look less than impressive because they're largely working class and filled with apartment buildings.
The same could be said of the view from the MFL, the T's Red and Orange Lines and BART through Oakland. I've never been in Chicago, but it's probably much the same way. (Whenever a Chicago el is shown in the movies, such as BLUES BROTHERS or MIDNIGHT RUN, it seems to be a run-down area.)
You're not going to see mansions through subway windows, with the possible exception of the Brighton open cut between Newkirk and H.
Getting back to the Bronx, if you venture a short distance from the Van Cortlandt terminal, there are some spectacular houses on quiet, winding, tree-lined suburban streets. The Country Club area, which is a short distance from the Pelham Bay terminal, is also quite nice.
When you get off the '5' at Pelham Parkway and emerge from the street-level station house, you would swear you were in eastern Queens.
I've never been in Chicago, but it's probably much the same way. (Whenever a Chicago el is shown in the movies, such as BLUES BROTHERS or MIDNIGHT RUN, it seems to be a run-down area.)
Some of Chicago's els actually pass through rather nice areas. The Howard branch of the Red Line through the gentrified neighborhoods of Lincoln Park and Lakeview, almost the entire Brown Line through Lakeview and Ravenswood, and the elevated portion of the O'Hare branch of the Blue Line through the artsy, funky neighborhood of Wicker Park all come to mind. Even the South Loop, with the Green / Orange Line L tracks, is quickly becoming a desireable neighborhood. Not to mention the Loop itself.
There are even $500,000 townhomes being built next to the L tracks in some of these neighborhoods. Of course, when the yuppies move in, the first thing they complain about is the noise from the trains. So far City Hall has been good about telling these people where they can shove their complaints.
I've never seen Midnight Run, but The Blues Brothers is one of my all-time favorites. Most of the scenes in the movie featuring the L are in the downtown area. (Their single-room "home" facing the tracks was on Van Buren before it met its firey demise, and the chase scenes later in the movie were on Wells Street in the River North area.) These areas may have been a bit seedy at the time the movie was filmed, but today they are all quite desireable.
Chicago seems truly in love with its els; they arean't considered the eyesore that they are in some other cities. Some time ago there was even a proposal to replace the downtown Loop with a subway, but it was rightfully shot down.
-- David
Boston, MA
Being near an El, or other rail transit, is considered an asset in Chicago real estate. People want access to the Loop by rapid transit, and by and large seem willing to live with the noise. Of the areas shown in the "Blues Brothers", almost all have gentrified or are rapidly gentrifying. Chicago is one of the hottest real estate markets in the country, and areas of the city that have been moribund for years are now in line for major redevelopment. This is, of course, true in many places, like NYC, and Boston as well. Let's hope the economy continues to be good (and maybe we will even see a full length 2nd Avenue Subway in our lifetimes.)
Speaking of the Blues Bros....I thought that part when they're "home"..the train was going by every minute was exagerrated...NOT!! When I was there, those trains were going by just about every minute
Howard: Thanks for the info. There have been some of you who have been very helpful in this matter rather than attacking me. I'll check it out when I get to New York.
I've been to Chicago. Downtown, one of the most spectacular sights you will ever see in any metropolitain cities.No garbage,graftti,very clean and friendly.If you take the loop downtown you can really get an idea from the EL.
Don't venture out to far west(GREEN LINE TO HARLEM)!It becomes a buffer zone of urban decay. Unimaginable destruction and urban blight. "PULASKI ave". scary during the day. If I'm not misstaking, this is where they shot the 80's show "Hill Street Blues" and the movie "Jugement night" with Emilio Estavez and Cuba Gooding Jr. It is too bad because from what I saw left; besides tenement houses, many victorian styles cottages just left burnt out or boarded up. Many vacant lots and people just hanging out.
South side Chicago, they call it the longest line of poverty in America. Chicago housing projects along the Dan Ryan Expressway.
The red line goes there.
Those knocking the bronx, check this place out and have fun!!
don't get lost...
Marty.
Knocking the Bronx? Why? It certainly isn't the worst borough.
In context, which one is and what makes it the worst?
[Knocking the Bronx? Why? It certainly isn't the worst borough.]
Well, it might very well be the worst. Manhattan obviously is a special case. Staten Island is considerably more affluent. Queens is also somewhat more affluent and has much more economic activity. Brooklyn has about as low an average income and as high a crime rate as the Bronx, but as I noted elsewhere it also has a substantial independent economic base, while the Bronx is basically nothing in economic terms.
Thanks Pete, and that should settle the argument once and for all. The Bronx is the worst of the five boroughs, but there ARE some nice areas in the North Bronx, and it's a vast improvement since 1977. Case closed.
Worst is just a matter of opinion. You could say Manhattan is the worst because you hate extremely tall buildings.
Who said I hate extremely tall buildings. I HATE nothing, but I do get bugged by people who try to put words in my mouth. Pete said it best and I agree with him and I also say the case is closed. Finis.
CAPICE??????
You missed the point because you're still in a confrontational mode. You said the Bronx is the worst borough. That is YOUR opinion, I don't think any borough is the worst. Someone else can say Manhattan is the worst because they hate tall buildings. Manhattan has nearly all of them.
Maybe I should start using the word ONE as a hypothetical pronoun? I didn't think I needed to because the word could made it clear.
Fred don t pay him any attention, the Teeny=bopper has to have the last word.
To #1Brighton Exp Bob:
Why must you add to the tension by adding the phrase "teeny bopper" to your argument? I know for a fact that we have about 4 teenaged/young adults who post on the board frequently with relevant facts and good comments. The fact that the person you are insulting is a teenager has no validity to it. Why must you make such assinine statements about young people? Age is but a number, Bob. Sorry...
Thank you, I wasn't about to shut up while Fred insulted me and scalded me for no reason.
There's a simple reason why people insult others based on age, they feel pathetic that someone younger than them happens to have a better argument. They cannot accept that. To hell with them.
in the past i took on a condescending, phony, peace making posture on subtalk... i preached peace and understanding... after many hours of psychotherapy, where i have examined my true feelings about fellow subtalkers, especially when they engage in bickering, name calling, and other nastiness, i want to honestly say
keep it up... i love it
I will not shut up while someone insults me and scalds me for no reason. You just can't accept the fact that someone younger than you has a better argument.
Using age as an excuse is the last refuge of those who haven't anything else to say.
You are absolutely right. Why is the Bronx necessarily the "worst" borough? It all depends on taste. I think the Bronx is the BEST borough because it is so rich in history and has such an amazing story behind it. Not many places have that history. It was down and now it's making a comeback slowly but surely. I am looking forward to moving to the Bronx in the next year or two. I think it's quite amazing that some residents can say,"The building in which I live was burnt out and abandoned 23 years ago". I have a tremendous amount of respect for people like Yolanda Rivera (founder of Banana Kelly) and everyone else who stayed instead of taking an easy way out by moving to the suburbs. I think a lot of people live such sheltered lives and overcoming adversity and obstacles adds character. The bronx is definitely my favorite borough.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for people like Yolanda Rivera (founder of Banana Kelly) and everyone else who stayed instead of taking an easy way out by moving to the suburbs. I think a lot of people live such sheltered lives and overcoming adversity and obstacles adds character.
In two sentances you've pretty much summed up my entire life philosophy. I'd much rather live in the worst ghetto of Chicago's South Side than rot away in some plastic Sun Belt wasteland. Thank you.
-- David
Boston, MA
>>>I'd much rather live in the
worst ghetto of Chicago's South Side than rot away in some plastic Sun Belt wasteland.<<<
So glad those aren't the only two choices...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[In two sentances you've pretty much summed up my entire life philosophy. I'd much rather live in the worst ghetto of Chicago's South Side than rot away in some plastic Sun Belt wasteland. Thank you.]
Not too many years ago, it was acceptable in polite society to discriminate against Jews and tell Jewish jokes. But then sensibilities changes, and doing so was no longer acceptable. In turn, it then became unacceptable to discriminate against blacks and to tell "colored" jokes. Yet many people *still* think it's perfectly acceptable to blast the suburbs - which deep down means the people living in them. I guess some forms of discrimination are still socially acceptable.
The difference is that people have a choice where they want to live, and there is nothing wrong with criticizing ideas. People cannot control how they are born. Nobody is born suburban and forced to stay that way.
And in any case, taking an insult against a certain locale to be an insult against people is a stretch.
fortunately there are still some groups that we can kick around with impunity... many here derive pleasure from kicking around the suburbs, california or the the bronx... i, for one, try to eschew such nastiness... i save my anger and contempt for that one group in america that everyone agrees is despicable... the railfan...
I never kicked around CALIFORNIA. There are few places with as much expanse and natural beauty. I kicked around suburban Los Angeles.
Yes, that sounds strange considering the beaches and mountains in that area, but beaches and mountains are not suburbs and I was only retaliating at attacks on MY city.
We can always Kick Around Sea Beach Fans,
Not liking the ways of the suburbs has nothing to do with nor is it on the same level with racial discrimination. If I don't recall, you constantly are knocking urban and "ghetto dwellers". How about the statement about the Dominicans? That is an ignorant, racist thing to say even if you didn't realize it. How can you compare the treatment of Blacks and Jews with the treatment of spoiled, unhappy suburbanites?
[Not liking the ways of the suburbs has nothing to do with nor is it on the same level with racial discrimination. If I don't recall,
you constantly are knocking urban and "ghetto dwellers". How about the statement about the Dominicans? That is an ignorant, racist thing to say even if you didn't realize it. How can you compare the treatment of Blacks and Jews with the treatment of spoiled, unhappy suburbanites?]
Duh, if you read my posts a little more carefully, you'd see that I am not criticizing urban residents. My main point in this Bronx thread has been to note that the borough's economy offers very few jobs for its residents. I consider that an unfortunate development - something else that should be clear from my posts - and find it frustrating that neither the city government nor private industry seems interested in changing matters.
I assume that your reference to my comment about Dominicans involves the Washington Heights blackout (that ConEd targeted that area for blackout because Dominicans are used to living without power). Well, if you'd bothered to read my posting, you would have realized that I was merely mentioning a claim that's been raised before by other people. In other words, the blackout claim is not my own, and in fact I have no idea whatsoever whether it's true or not.
Oh, and as far as bigotry is concerned, note that you've just referred to "spoiled, unhappy suburbanites." Sure sounds like prejudice to me. What IS clear is that suburban residents have become the last group in the United States that can be made fun of without repercussions. Ethnic, racial and religious bigotry is taboo, but anti-suburban bigotry is perfectly acceptable.
Oh, rats! I thought WASPs were still fair game.
Well if you are referring to Southern California as a sunbelt wasteland, all I can say is that you need more bran in your diet.
As sunny as it is, I don't see California as being in the Sunbelt.
Nope the Smog Bumper to Bumper 70mph Freeway Belt, but I do miss some of it
OK, what's Banana Kelly?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Question: What is Bananna Kelly?
Answer: AFAIK Kelly is a cresent shaped street. The fronts of the tenements on that street were curved to follow the street. At one time they were abandoned. They were renovated.
Banana Kelly is a grass roots organization in the South Bronx which was established in 1977. It's name is from where it originated- Kelly Street and "Banana" is because of the way the street curves. This group came about when residents became concerned about what was happening in their neighborhood. It began with a few neighborhood people and now 23 years later they've got their own schools, buildings, and job training services. I plan on volunteering with them soon (hopefully by the end of the month- just have to call them!) For more info on Banana Kelly, here are some addresses:
www.dosomething.org/connections/cases/case1/page1.htm
Here is abit of history for you. Check out this website:
http://community-1.webtv.net/Brooklyn11204/THEBRONXFIGHTSBACK/
for more info,IM me or e-mail me @: Nordica@AOL.com and we shall talk.
Thanks for the info - I've taken a quick look at the site above and at the one mentioned in your next post as well. Not being from the City, I hadn't heard of the organization at all.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[You are absolutely right. Why is the Bronx necessarily the "worst" borough? It all depends on taste. I think the Bronx is the BEST borough because it is so rich in history and has such an amazing story
behind it. Not many places have that history. It was down and now it's making a comeback slowly but surely. I am looking forward to moving to the Bronx in the next year or two. I think it's quite amazing that some residents can say,"The building in which I live was burnt out and abandoned 23 years ago".]
No one's denying that the Bronx has improved considerably since the 1970's. And it's also been established that there are some decent neighborhoods in the borough, probably more than most people would have thought. But as I've said at least twice, the Bronx's critical problem is a near-total lack of an economic base. When the largest factory in an entity with a population over one million has just a couple hundred employees - not to mention the fact that the factory's now out of business - something is extremely wrong. I believe that the various organizations that are trying to improve the Bronx should focus on the economic aspect. Without local jobs, the borough is doomed.
I live in Chicago, so I disagree with you. Don't forget, the Lake St.
"L" ("TO HARLEM!") also runs through the nice suburb of Oak Park.
The South Side "L" is also a nice ride for a railfan, but it is rather
depressing because of the massive depopulation in that area.
Both the West and South sides have to be seen in addition to the rest
of the city, in my opinion. The empty lots and depopulation is amazing and has to be seen to be believed. There are several blocks along the Lake St. "L" with just one house on them.
Jacob, I wasn't dissing your city. As a matter of fact I stated downtown had to be one of the most spectacular sight in any metropolitain ereas in North America.
Call a spade a spade. When we take the "EL" out west or south for that matter, drive down Madison Ave. the Chicago Housing projects are a sight to see! Heading out to Harlem trough Pulaski ave. is very intimidating.
This is part of american culture today. The good and the bad. Chicago has the best of both. Ride the "EL" around town, you'll get a great view of it all.
Go to Country Club or Throgs Neck. The areas around Pelham Pkwy are also nice. You might want to try Riverdale as well. The North Bronx is also very nice. I will agree that when you travel on the els that all you see might not be so beautiful. But have you ever gotten off, and taken the bus or walked to a place farther away from the el? The Bronx can be a very nice place. Take Country Club for instance. There are some very nice houses around there. You just can't sit back and critize the Bronx when you really haven't been in it.
Clark Palicka
Visit both the east and the west coasts of the Bronx, and the portions near the Westchester border, you will not be disappointed.
Not to mention Pelham Parkway.
[Visit both the east and the west coasts of the Bronx, and the portions near the Westchester border, you will not be disappointed.]
There actually are two issues here. We've already established that the Bronx is not all ghetto, that it indeed has some decent neighborhoods. That's the good part. The more serious part is that the Bronx, depsite having a population in excess of one million, has a pathetically small economic base - no office space, very little industry, not much retail, and so on. And despite several years of a strong economy, there's been scarcely any growth of an economic base except for the retail near Co-op City. If the Bronx is ever going to recover, at the rate things are going it'll have to be as a bedroom community for people who work elsewhere. It would be much better if it were to develop its own economic basis, but that hasn't been happening.
Well...some ideas have been suggested. The Bronx Borough President's website (http://www.bpferrer.org) has a proposal, complete with fancy-schmancy artist's renderings, to create a Yankee Stadium Village, including a remodelled Yankee Stadium, parking, improved rail access, and shopping malls.
I am normally against the use of public money to benefit a wealthy sports-franchise owner; in many cities, taxpayers have been ripped off (i.e., St Louis, Oakland, etc.). But in this case, the Bronx needs all the help it can get to generate business. The Yankees are one of the Bronx' greatest assets; no public money should be used to help George Steinbrenner exclusively, but if the Yankee Stadium was part of giant development project it might be worthwhile.
Sensitivity to the residents of this neighborhood might derail certain projects, and I can't say I would blame them for putting up resistance. For instance, it has been suggested in the past that McCombs Dam Park be used as a site for Yankee Stadium parking; this would be intolerable in a neighborhood that has so little open land for recreation. And..suppose apartment buildings had to be torn down....it would become a political hot-button issue.
If I had a Robert Moses mentality (and I don't!) I would tear down all the apartment houses between the Grand Concourse and Yankee Stadium and put in a giant Parking structure, topped by a shopping mall. I'm sure, however, that the former residents of those buildings wouldn't send me a birthday card....
Even though I have been a Yankee hater since I was six, the Yankees belong in the Bronx. It would be heresy to move them out of there, and if it would help the Bronx recover it might be worth what you are suggesting. You see, I don't hate the Bronx, just what has happened to it.
Yeah, but think of it this way. Are any of the residents sending you any birthday cards now???
What kind of urban renewal is going on in the south bronx in order to attract any kind of economic burst.
Since the bottom fell out in 78-79 Charlotte Gardens is a nice set of ranch houses, but not much in industry!
[What kind of urban renewal is going on in the south bronx in order to attract any kind of economic burst.
Since the bottom fell out in 78-79 Charlotte Gardens is a nice set of ranch houses, but not much in industry!]
You've summed it up pretty well. Yes, there has been a decent amount of new housing construction in what had been some very rough parts of the South Bronx, and that's something to be happy about. But there's been little or no economic development in the borough, no expansion of the employment base. An extraordinarily high percentage of the jobs in the Bronx are in government or (government-subsidized) health care, rather than in the private sector. Unless things change, I fear that the Bronx is going to go downhill again.
Not to bum anyboby out, but the ranch style houses like the ones in the charlotte gardens are too flimsy anyway to survive 50 years. Is the Bronx Doomed to ever recover?
Why does it need an economic base?
Seriously, Manhattan can serve as that base. You mention Brooklyn having an economic base, but if one cut the borough up, you can have a contiguous area with 1.1 million people (Bronx population, half of Brooklyn population) with NO economic base. Borders are artificial boundaries imposed by men years ago when rivers and mountains where actual impediments to trade. The Harlem River is more bridged than any other river in the City. Every subway in the Bronx runs straight into Manhattan.
Does that mean that the subway stations in the South Bronx have to look like the decayed ereas they are in. Does the MTA discriminate on where they spend for renovations on the system?
Do stations in Harlem, Bed Stuy, Brownsville, East New York and Hunts Point look like the ones in more affluent neigbourhoods around NYC?
Most renovations are concetrated in Manhattan.
Two poor area renovations that I know of are Utica Avenue and Broadway-East New York/Broadway Junction/Eastern Parkway.
[Do stations in Harlem, Bed Stuy, Brownsville, East New York and Hunts Point look like the ones in more affluent neigbourhoods around NYC?]
Ever see the Utica Av IND Station by Boys And Girls HS?? Or the new Fulton Street Station of the Franklyn Shuttle? They are both pretty nice.
[Why does it need an economic base?
Seriously, Manhattan can serve as that base. You mention Brooklyn having an economic base, but if one cut the borough up, you can have a contiguous area with 1.1 million people (Bronx population, half of Brooklyn population) with NO economic base. Borders are artificial boundaries imposed by men years ago when rivers and mountains where actual impediments to trade. The Harlem River is more bridged than any other river in the City. Every subway in the Bronx runs straight into
Manhattan.]
Commuting to jobs in Manhattan isn't an option for many people in the Bronx. Manhattan jobs frequently require skills and training that are in short supply among Bronx residents. If there were large-scale industries in the Bronx, there would be more jobs that local residents actually would be qualified to fill.
Sorry but it is a fact that a large percentage of South Bronx residents in the 1970s-early 1980s era were college educated with bachelors and masters degrees but remained jobless because of racial discrimination.
What are you talking about? Commutting to Manhattan is a viable option for many people in the Bronx. First, many parts of it as as convieneient as Brooklyn is, contrary to popular belief. Additionally, there are thousands upon thousands of people who have some form of marketable skills that live in the Bronx.
Additionally, for someone who cried discrimination in an earlier post regarding the suburbs, you're a pretty prejudiced individual. Not everyone in the Bronx is an unskilled laborer.
--Kevin, a Bronx native.
[What are you talking about? Commutting to Manhattan is a viable option for many people in the Bronx. First, many parts of it as as convieneient as Brooklyn is, contrary to popular belief. Additionally, there are thousands upon thousands of people who have some form of marketable skills that live in the Bronx.]
Correct on both points. But the essential problem is that there are thousands upon thousands of people in the Bronx who do *not* have the specialized skills and training that Manhattan jobs require. Commuting to Manhattan, while easy in physical terms, is not much of an option for them, and getting to jobs in the suburbs can be very difficult. Their lives would be a lot better if the Bronx actually HAD more than a pathetically small number of private-sector jobs. I'll bet that the Bronx, with a population of more than one million, has fewer private sector jobs than Sunbelt metropolitan areas with one-quarter the population. What a disgrace.
[Additionally, for someone who cried discrimination in an earlier post regarding the suburbs, you're a pretty prejudiced individual. Not everyone in the Bronx is an unskilled laborer.]
Duh, did I say that everyone was?
Pete: No you didn't, but there are always a few jokers who like to read something into something that simply isn;t there. Why waste your time trying to reason with them. It is simply that, a waste of time.
That comment about the Bronx being a slag heap is really not appreciated.
The Bronx has made tremendous strides in trying to improve itself. The Bay Plaza Shopping Center is one example. City Island is another. In addition, there are no more burned out buildings standing in the South Bronx. They have been razed and prefab houses have been built.
Every borough has its "poor" and "rich" areas. Brooklyn has gone through a lot of renovation with the yuppies deciding that Williamsburg, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, and Prospect Park are the next best thing to living in Manhattan. And I gotta tell you, I have been to those neighborhoods. And I STILL wouldn't trade them for living in Morris Park, Pelham Bay, Throggs Neck, or Country Club in the Bronx. The homes in these areas put those in Westchester and Long Island to shame. I would rather live in a nice single or two family home in the Bronx than some converted warehouse or closet-space apartment in another borough.
But like Dennis Miller says, of course, that's only my opinion, I may be wrong.
You tell him, Joe. It never ceases to amaze me how someone from LA-LA
land (Ca.) knows so much about the Bronx.
Peace,
ANDEE
It ceases to amaze how much some people think they know so much here. It's a lot BS coming out of their mouths. By the way, I live in the South Bronx. Anyone got a problem with that?
-Stef
No, I'd rather live in the South Bronx than on Park Avenue.
What's so great about Park Avenue anyway? The train is underground.
You like the South Bronx, more power to you. I was just giving my opinion from what I have seen.
Everybody has a right to their opinion, however, not everyone's opinion is correct.
Is that a fact? Who says so? You? Sorry but I'll pass on that.
So if you believe that the sun revolves around the Earth, that is your opinion, does that make it true?
Say guys, this Bronx boy sure appreciates all the hub-bub being created over my beloved (?) boro. Before I split for the weekend, please let's have some peace finally and put this issue to rest.
Fred, I believe that since you have abandoned the city of NY for a
"sunnier"(?) climate, you are herebye disqualified from commenting
on anymore Bronx/Brooklyn issues.Period. OK paisano? Now, get back on track, will ya'.
Until Monday, keep cool guys.
Joe C.
No No No! This is better than any soap opera on T.V.!
What do ya expect from someone who idolizes the Sea Beach?
Tell me what neighborhood you live in the Bronx Sarge, and I'll look you up and take you to dinner. Chances are I'd never find you there, and chances are you don't go there unless you have to, and then, with a gun. Right?
Go back to your enclosed, gated community and live in a bland, neurotic, boring suburban life.
I was there. I saw some of it and I wasn't impressed but distressed.
Again, I know because I was there--in 1991 and 1999, and I will be there for two days this summer. I plan on going to those areas where it is supposed to be "nice". Maybe I'' change my mind. Speaking of LA LA land, the Bronx certainly can't be mentioned in the same breath as it.
Of course it can't! How dare you compare Los Angeles with The Bronx?
Los Angeles can't hold up a candle to The Bronx.
I AM ENJOYING THIS, REALLY I AM
Bob: Don't forget to give me your new address when you move to the Bronx. I'm sure you will live in a palatial neighborhood-----if you have any better luck finding it than it did when I was in that slag heap of a borough.
Fred, you do need to draw a line somewhere around Fordham Road/East Tremont Ave. (I know this is not completely accurate) to differentiate the infamous part of the Bronx the public came to know and fear from the 1976 World Series coverage with the upper Bronx, which is still in pretty good shape.
Riverdale, of course, is in even better condition than that, judging by the rental and condo prices.
The West Bronx -- the parts on the hills -- was built for the better off, and will be occupied by the better off again. It is happening in Washington Heights, and it will happen on the Grand Boulevard and Councourse. Might take two more booms (twenty years?), but it will happen. All it will take is for some part of the Latino middle class to decide that this, rather than the suburbs, will be THEIR place.
[Riverdale, of course, is in even better condition than that, judging by the rental and condo prices.]
Real estate ads in the _Times_ have separate categories for "the Bronx" and "Riverdale."
Riverdale is still the Bronx, and by the way Fred when was the last time you walked on Central Ave and Manchester in LA or Brooklyn and Soto in East LA. I would live in some areas of the Bronx if I had a nicer apt and a good paying job, but that is not in my future
I'm getting the picture. And I will draw that line. I look forward to seeing these areas in the future.
Pigs: You just won the Salaam Award for that pearl. Where is the Bronx do you live? You don't???????? I wonder why!!!!
And do you?
You live in the bland, disgusting Los Angeles Basin, you obviously have no right to say anything.
>>>Los Angeles can't hold up a candle to The Bronx.<<<
In Los Angeles you can't even see the candle because of all the damn smog.
Peace,
ANDEE
Well, at least Houston is king of smog now.
What about Canal? Or 14th?
Where in the Bronx do you live Andee? Oh, you don't live in the Bronx? I thought so.
WHAT are you talking about I live on the GRAND CONCOURSE near 203rd St.
Peace,
ANDEE
You got me there and I guessed I knew what I was talking about and in this case I didn't. I put my foot in my mouth and I stand corrected. BTW, I will be looking over those nice places in the Bronx some of you guys have told me about.
Don t forget the big park at 161st and River Ave on the B-D and 4 Lines. The home of 25 times WORLD CHAMPIONS
I long for the days of 1965-1975, and 1982-1995, when the yankees were manhandled by the rest of the league. Their guys are getting old and it will happen again. I'll see what you say then, and how crowded the B, D, and 4 lines are then.
In 93 and 94 they were winning, in fact in 94 they had the best record in Baseball when the strike took them out. Old Jeter 23, B Williams 30, the only old guys are the pitchers and Paul O Neil (over 35)
It's a shame the '94 season ended the way it did. The Rockies were on their way to topping their own season attendance record; they were on a pace to draw nearly 4.7 million and were at 3.2 million when the strike hit. During one 10-game homestand (they were still playing at Mile High), the AVERAGE crowd for each game was 65,000. That strike left a bad taste in my mouth which is still there. While I've seen the Mets a couple of times at Shea since then, I've never been to Coors Field.
Also Montreal was having a great season. It is ashamed that a lot of greedy players with 230 life time averages, are getting so much money. Baseball is diluted, because not enough good players. Too many teams, very few real super-stars.
Next Saturday the most important park in NY will be at Hempstead Tnpk & the Cross Island Pkway on the Nassau/Queens border.
Next Saturday the most important park in NY will be at Hempstead Tnpk & the Cross Island Pkway on the Nassau/Queens border. Too bad there's no chance of a triple crown this year.
I noticed you had a double post, too. I've been getting that a lot lately. I only hit the post button once and I still get double posts. I wonder why that happens?
He didn't post the same message twice. Notice the extra sentence about the Triple Crown.
WHAT are you talking about I live on the GRAND CONCOURSE near 203rd St. For the last 20+ years I might add.
Peace,
ANDEE
AMEN
I was there. I saw some of it and I wasn't impressed but distressed.
Again, I know because I was there--in 1991 and 1999, and I will be there for two days this summer. I plan on going to those areas where it is supposed to be "nice". Maybe I'' change my mind. Speaking of LA LA land, the Bronx certainly can't be mentioned in the same breath as it.
Speaking of breath, Fred.....
Please don't post your nonsense twice; once is enough any of us can take.
The reason the 2 and 5 run UNDER Brooklyn: come out from your Sea Beach trench and take a good look.
For the life of me, pisano, how did you ever pick such a handle?
The "#4" I can agree with; I understand the "Sea Beach" part. But FRED??? What pisano is a FRED?
All the best,
Joe C.
flx870: Last time you were Joe Caronetti, today you're flx870, what will you be tomorrow, Bronxmugger99? Fred was my father's name, and it was frederico. Sicilian. My mother Anglicized my name. Thanks for your interest. All the best from #4 Sea Beach Fred. The reason the #2 and 5 run under Brooklyn is so no one can see those IRT relics.
So does the N run under 4th Ave, and in a undercut. They are eventhinking of building a mall over the N tracks between New Utricht and 18th Ave or something like that to hide the Slow Beach Local from view
Funny! Maybe they should build that mall, if in fact, they are really considering it, over the Brighton cut between Prospect Park and wherever that train comes up for air. That way all your snobby rich friends along upper middle class row could shortcut it totheir shopping.
Nope, read about it last year in Brooklyn Bridge Magazine. The Brooklyn version of New York or Los Angeles Magazines. By thge way does anybody get Brooklyn Bridge, i would love a subscription, and ideas?
Hey Frederico,
Looks like #1Brighton Bob nailed that one too you. Did you read his reply? Thanks Bob.
My handle chnaged because the webmaster requested it to be so. I asked for a change but collectively he and I decided to stick with this.
By the by, I DO live in the Bronx. True it is not the Bronx you may remember from the '40's or whenever you were supposedly here last. IMHO it isn't the place I grew up in either, but what is anymore???
I have wanted to get to California all my boyhood. In 1978, at age 30, my dream came true. I've gone out to "the coast" each year since.
Yes, I love it. No, I would not want to live the rest of my days there, in some stagnant, sterile community. And in California, either you make it or don't! No in betweens. Seems like carry-overs from the depression, only generations later. Toothless and barefoot on Sunset Blvd. What a life.
On a positive note, California is finally waking up to undo the mistakes they made years ago. The car-crazed population is now making way for good, decent rail transportation.
ANyway Fred, hope we meet someday. Come to the Bronx in the Fall, not the bloody summer. Check out the Botanical Gardens at Xmas time; see the garden train show there. And the zoo at night with the holiday lights. And in the South Bronx, a.k.a the Hub, eat at Yolanda's on 149th off Morris Ave. You won't need a gun, only an appetite.
Joe C.
You got a deal. However, I can only come in the summer this year. Next year I will retire from teaching and I can then see Autumn in New York which, btw, I remember fondly. I don't like fall here in California. I love the spring and summer. AND I will bring my appetite with me Piasan. Too bad we can;t mee this summer. I'm hoping to team up with a few of my railfan buddies on this web.
I'm usually in the city for a few days during late October, so I will keep that in mind.
You are welcome, by the way off topics for you Brooklyn People. Is Juniors still on DeKalb and Flatbush in Downtown Brooklyn. I just received their cook book yesterday, and I am hungry
Yes it is.
It's also in the Grand Central Dining Concourse.
Thank you, when I go to NYC I will have dinner there
BX: I hope you are right, but from what I saw from the subway and walking around a few of the neighborhoods I'm commenting on what I saw. It would be ideal if the Bronx recovered and maybe it will, but I did see improvement in neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens, but did not see any in the Bronx. Maybe I went to the wrong neighborhoods.
There's a simple reason. The Bronx is home to the Yankees, you hate the Yankees. Therefore you choose to be blind to anything good about the Bronx.
Pigs: You're a gentleman and a scholar and a simpleton. Tell you what. When I come to New York on August 16 and 17, you take me to those far and away treats of the Bronx and I'll pay the cost of evrerything including meals. Maybe you can take me to that wonderful neighborhood you live in inthe Bronx. OK? Pigs? Pigs? Hello??
What will I get in return? A visit to bland subhumana.. sorry, suburbia? I don't think so, I can always drive to Long Island if I want to see that.
So, where in the New York area do you live that you visit The Bronx so often?
>>>I'm high right now.<<<
It Shows
Peace,
ANDEE
No hard feelings on my part Andee, and will check out those "nice" neighborhoods when I come in for my two day visit in August.
They filmed a number of films in the areas I mentioned. Most recently, they filmed "Summer of Sam" in Morris Park and Country Club.
There was an uproar over this because many residents felt that it was portraying the neighborhood residents, in particularly Italians, as uneducated and violent.
A more light-hearted movie filmed in Morris Park was "True Love" back in 1989. This film had Ron Eldard (Men Behaving Badly) and Annabella Sciorra (Hand That Rocks The Cradle) as s young couple soon to be wed.
City Island can be seen in a number of movies. One of these is "A Bronx Tale" when Robert DeNiro is driving the 1950's era bus to the end of the run with his son.
To put it in layman's terms, Morris Park and Pelham Bay closely resembles Bensonhurst in Brooklyn. Many homes and buildings seem to be duplicated. My friends from Brooklyn have also remarked this to me. Country Club resembles Bay Ridge - the part closest to the bridge.
[They filmed a number of films in the areas I mentioned. Most recently, they filmed "Summer of Sam" in Morris Park and Country Club.
There was an uproar over this because many residents felt that it was portraying the neighborhood residents, in particularly Italians, as uneducated and violent.]
I can scarcely blame the residents for being angry. Almost all of the main, Italian-American characters were deeply flawed in one way or another - adulterers, thugs, drug users, mobsters, a gay hooker, a skank, and in general a whole bunch of Guidos. If someone had made a movie with black characters portrayed as badly, Spike Lee would be hollering so loud he'd blow the roof right off of Madison Square Garden.
Although I have to say that _Summer of Sam_ had one of the greatest epithets of all time: linguine-d**k motherf***er.
I agree entirely. I didn't care for stereotypes either. There was not one positive person in the movie. One person was more deviant and despicable than the other.
And to top it all off, the styles were NOT from the 70's. Everyone looked like they just fell from a time warp from 1987 - gold chains, t shirts, and 80's era hairstyles.
To keep this on a transit-related (though not subway-related) topic, they did get the bus model right. In the back ground during one of the scenes, a Fishbowl can be scene making a turn on the street.
[re _Summer of Sam_]
[And to top it all off, the styles were NOT from the 70's. Everyone looked like they just fell from a time warp from 1987 - gold chains, t shirts, and 80's era hairstyles.]
One thing that's been cited as a blooper is the earring hole that can be seen in John Leguizamo's left ear lobe in some scenes. It would have been nearly unthinkable for a macho working-class straight man to have had an earring in 1977. Only gays or maybe some really trendy Village types would have had one at the time.
I kept thinking there's be a subway shown at some point during the movie, but alas that was not to be, although there was a scene at the Kew Gardens LIRR station.
Yeah, Spike Lee really should have done his research for this movie. It's pretty sad to see all those mistakes in the styles and all the stereotypes. And what's a movie set in the Bronx without a subway station?
Peter, I can't agree with that. In 1974 I lived in Ridgewood, Queens for 6 very depressing months. Anyway, many guys just back from 'Nam had earrings; they claimed it was something picked up over there.
Can't say yes or no, not having been there. But if they and their wives/ girlfriends say so, I go along with it.
Joe C.
(I kept thinking there's be a subway shown at some point during the movie, but alas that was not to be, although there was
a scene at the Kew Gardens LIRR station.)
The scene you speak of is where this really attractive girl is walking out of the train station at night and is shot at point blank range by the Sum of Sam. That station was really the East 180th Street Station in the movie. Notice the large Spanish Mission style station house with the twin steeples in the background.
Pete: We're on the same page on that one. I don't know why Italian-Americans take that kind of crap. I for one do not tolerate anyone bagging on my Italian heritage. And that movie did make us look like a bunch of goons. I left that movie very angry at that.
Hey Fred, how does a Italian Car go when it gets a flat tire???
Bob, what's the punchline???
Yeah, my finger's poised on the rim shot button.:-)
There isn t any
Tell me Bob, I'm all ears.
Italians should not take that crap. Organize boycotts of stereotype movies like that. I will never watch another Spike Lee movie again. I've lost all respect for him because of that movie.
Now we're getting somewhere. I will check it out? How to I get to those two places? AND are there good Italian restaurants still in those neighborhoods? What train to I take. Let me know. This is more helpful than that ration of nonsense I've been getting from some of my other bretheran on this sit.
If you take the #5 to the Morris Park you have to walk about 4-6 blocks up Paulding Ave to Morris Park Avenue. It is a smaller version of 86th Street/18th Avenue Bensonhurst. There is an Italian caffe, deli, or Italian restaurant on almost every block. I am not exaggerating. May I suggest Patricia's with their famous brick oven pizza?
The Pelham Parkway stop gets you off on Williamsbridge Road. Also full of restaurants and delis - most notable are Sorrento pizzeria, Pasta Pasta and Enzo's.
Throggs Neck and Country Club, on the other hand, are mostly residential. These two neighborhoods are far from the train and can be reached by NY Bus Service or the bus from the #6 trains. There are many beautiful homes and one of them happens to be the home of an Assemblyman. May I also add that we have a Senator living in Morris Park?
On Columbus Day, Morris Park has a parade that has grown since it started about 20 yrs ago. Rudy had made a pledge to always attend this parade if he won, and he has not broken his promise. He's there rain or shine. I once marched in the parade with a group I belong to and he was right behind us and even marched with our group for a few blocks. I have a picture to prove it.
Pelham Bay is also full of restaurants. The #6 stops by a few stations you have Villa Barone right under the depot at Pelham Bay.
There is much to see in these areas and I think you will be impressed. There are many Italians like myself that are happy to call these areas in the Bronx home.
I wouldn't expect him to care, he's the kind of person who prefers to have his meals in a nice bland suburban institution like the Olive Garden.
Let's get one thing straight my friend: I don't give a damn where people live but know this, your chances of being killed in Suburbia is no better than getting killed in the South Bronx, Newark, or any other place where minorities dwell. It's not a minority thing. You can be killed anywhere, any place, anytime.
-Stef
Stef, you just hit that one right out of the park.
Thank You. At least someone sees my point. If no one minds, I prefer to talk about trains and less about politics.
-Stef
[I wouldn't expect him to care, he's the kind of person who prefers to have his meals in a nice bland suburban institution like the Olive Garden.]
Please tell me exactly what's so bad about the Olive Garden. I certainly haven't noticed.
He decides to insult an urban area, I'm going to insult his suburban lifestyle.
Hey Squirt: You don't know me, so why don't you dry up and blow away.
The area by the Long Island Sound is really nice. So is City Island. A newcomer to the area would never think areas like this exist in the Bronx. I would like to live there if I could afford it. But I definitely want to get out of my neighborhood of Williamsbridge. It's a pretty depressing place to live. Nearby Gun Hill Road is also no place to write home about. (even if it is your home!)
I live in the Morris Park area which is a little away from Gun hill Road.
But you have to admit the Bay Plaza Shopping Center is a very good thing for all our areas. It's a shame they don't build a train connection to it! Perhaps if the full-length Second Ave subway is EVER built. Or that proposed idea of having Metro-North trains share the right of way with nearby Amtrak.
What is so bad ? Is it like Mott Haven, Hunts Point or more like East New York. Let's put things in perspective.
BX: Just printed out your message. I will look them up when I get to the Bronx. Thanks for the info. I don't mind being proved wrong. I'll see for my self and I'll bring my appetite with me.
Too bad the Mets only took one out of three. Oh, well....
Here's the text of the Staff Summary NYCT put out in the MTA Board NYCT Committee Agenda for December 1999 (incidentally, since all elected officials, community boards, etc. get the Committee Agenda, there's no way any community official can legitimately claim he or she was not informed). Any typographical errors are mine:
PURPOSE:
The purpose of this staff summary is to gain presidential approval for, and to inform the Board of, a service revision to improve peak period, peak direction subway service on the White Plains Road, Dyre Avenue and Lexington Avenue Corridors.
It is recommended that all White Plains Road peak-direction #2 trains and #5 trains (originating/terminating from the 241st and 238th Street Stations, respectively) would operate express during the rush hours, bypassing all stations between East 180th STreet and 3rd Avenue/149th Street. As a companion element, all Dyre Avenue peak-direction #5 trains would operate local during rush hours, serving all stations between East 180th Street and 3rd Avenue/149th Street.
This proposed change in service would eliminate an awkward merge of trains north of East 180th Street, which frequently delay service. These delays can often result in compounded delays at merge-points south of East 180th Street, resulting in reduced capacity and service irregularities on the Lexington Avenue line. The new service plan will improve service reliability and reduce overall delays during peak travel periods while providing express service for the higher volume longer distance travel markets.
DISCUSSION:
Background:
In an effort to better understand the causes of operational problems on the Lexington Avenue line, operations data has been reviewed with the goal of developing and implementing service changes to Subdivision A operations to improve service reliability and increase throughput capacity. It was found that there were problems during the peak period just north of East 180th Street with the merging of Route #2 trrains, Route #5 trains originating on the Dyre Avenue line, and other Route #5 trains originating on the White Plains Road line. Under the current service plan, during rush hours, Route #5 trains from both the White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue lines, operate express on the middle track between East 180th Street and 3rd Avenue/149th Street; Route #2 trains operate on the local track providing service to all stations between East 180th Street and 3rd Avenue/149th Street. Due to the track layout, this service pattern creates a situation where Route #5 trains from Dyre Avenue have to cross in front of #2 trains on the local track, then cross over to the express track and merge with White Plains Road #5 trains. This awkward merge is difficult to schedule and even more difficult to operate in a reliable manner. Because of this, trains often arrive at the next merge point, at 3rd Avenue/149th Street, off schedule. This then leads to #5 trains arriving off schedule at the 138th Street/Grand Concourse merge with Route #4, which ultimately leads to Lexington Avenue express trains operating off schedule, out of sequence and with unbalanced passenger loads. These conditions aggravate the extreme loading and dwell time problems further along the line in Manhattan, which in turn limits capacity.
The proposed service revision would address this problem by operating all Dyre Avenue Route #5 trains via the local track in the Bronx and all White Plains Road Route #2 trains and Route #5 trains via the express track from nort hof East 180th Street to north of 3rd Avenue/149th Street. This new service plan would eliminate diverging and conflicting track maneuvers north of East 180th Street. Dyre Avenue trains would continue to operate express in Manhattan, but would make seven additional stops in the Bronx between East 180th Street and 3rd Avenue/149th Street.
Riders at the seven local stations between East 180th Street and 3rd Avenue would experience a net reduction in peak hour train frequency (proposed 7 trains per hour from current 12 trains per hour). However, these riders would now be served by the Lexington Avenue line rather than the Seventh Avenue line. Origin-Destination data show that this will provide more convenient service with fewer transfers for more customers. Dyre Avenue branch riders would no longer have direct express service; but these customers could transfer to frequent express service at East 180th Street. Customer from upper White Plains Road (241st Street to East 180th Street) would gain express service on all trains serving their branch.
RECOMMENDATION:
It is recommended that all peak period White Plains Road service (all Route #2 and half of Route #5) operate via the express track in the Bronx between East 180th Street and south of Jackson Avenue and all peak period Dyre Avenue service operate via the local track in the Bronx. Dyre Avenue trains would continue to operate express in Manhattan. This service revision would eliminate conflicting merges at East 180th Street. Eliminating the merge should provide a significant improvement to both the #2 and #5 operations, and, thus, Lexington Avenue line and 7th Avenue line operations.
ALTERNATIVES:
Continue to operate the subway Route #2 trains on the local tracks and the subway Route #5 trains on express tracks in the Bronx during rush periods. Maintaining this existing service pattern will not address the merge problems north of East 180th Street. Therefore, customers would not receive the service reliability, loading and capacity benefits associated with the proposed service change. Additionally, the opportunity to provide direct express service for the higher volume of customers on the White Plains Road Line would not be provided.
IMPACT ON FUNDING:
There is no additional annual cost associated with this change in service.
Thank you very much for posting a 'document' It is way more useful to work from original sources.
Glad to help. BTW, feel free to jump in. Steve Bauman and I seem to be having a two-way conversation about White Plains Road service. There's some interesting stuff in there, but I think it would benefit from the input of others.
David
Its a classic--when posters speak of the "overbuilding" of the IND with its (PRR style
) flying junctions(think "Zoo") they forget that this Dyre issue apparently directly relates to a track layout glitch. At the same time, 'everyone' wants a one seat express ride to their destination. . I have no emotional investment in this particular fight other than my base belief in rationality first. So if the Dyre line only feeds directly to the local track, then... Much as Rogers junction, mentioned elsewhere, this would be a good place for a 'small' upgrade project. Both would clearly be advantageous for riders at rtelatively little cost. I would think that "Rogers" would not even need an EIR since it is totally underground and should have no permanent effect streetside. The Dyre problem likely would require neighborhood cooperation/EIR compliance. All that said, again thanks for providing the text.
You're welcome. Uhhh..EIR? Environmental Impact Statement (with an S), perhaps?
David
Sometimes lebeled Env. Imp. Report
Since the 'Hump' from the Dyre Ave line to WPR is almost totally contained inside the limits of the E.180/Unionport yard, itw ould be my guess that no EIS would be necessary.
David - you seek ideas on this matter and greater minds are being applied to it - I have had a think about it! There is no doubt that for efficient working at E180th St, Dyre Ave trains must work off their branch to/from the local platforms - a look at the map of E180th St on this site makes that obvious. Trains to/from WPR then can have parallel access to/from the centre express platform.
Trains on each line also appear to be appropriate to traffic needs from loadings quoted. So if services from E238 St operate, they will still have to merge with Dyre trains but just north of E180th St so a delay to one will react to other trains. Also Steve Bauman indicated the importance that existing or similar local service south of E180th St be maintained. So is there a solution to these conflicts?
Currently about 27 southbound trains work through E180th St in the am rush-hour; 7/8 ex Dyre Ave; 12 off WPR; another 7/8 ex 239th St yard. The down-town express routes of Lex and 7th Ave are currently served by 15 and 12 trains respectively. There is another conflict that from south of Jackson Ave to 149th/3rd Ave, all these 27 trains are on the one track merging north of the station and separating again in a different pattern after it!
David notes the importance of the Lex. line trains receiving smooth working throughout which means not only through E180th St, but through the merge south of Jackson Ave and at the 4/5 merge south of 138th St to maintain consistent and regular express service on the whole Lex line express service.
So which trains should go down the Lex. to make the flow work best? Divert the 12 WPR two-line trains, plus three of the existing 7 trains ex 238th St (thus total 15) to the Lex. running express south of E180th St. The eight Dyre Ave and 4 remaining ex E238 would then go local south of E180th St to the two line on the west side. The merge of trains ex E238 St with those from Dyre Ave north of E180th St, has to be managed by efficient scheduling and close attention to working.
But as stated, the majority of riders from WPR/Dyre/south of E180th St want to go to the Lex. then the alternative is for the 8 Dyre Ave trains, plus 7 ex E238 to run as local south of E180th St to the Lex as now, and the remaining 12 two-line trains run express south of E180th St. Or a different mixes of trains can be tried.
A further point is that more accurate and careful scheduling plus close monitoring of trains is vital for success. Trains for the Lex must be given preference over two-line trains in operation if they arrive together. Looking at April, 99 full detailed schedules show timings at 149th St for 2 and 5 line trains are at the same time which is impossible - so how careful is TA scheduling? and in these circumstances, which train receives preference from the tower operator?
The next task is rider education to change travel patterns. Dyre Ave patrons have to be convinced that change is in their best interests. Careful planning and appropriate explanation at the right places (consumer meetings ?) may well ease the TAs problems - put a map of the track at E180th St on the wall and let customers see how and why it works (and look at this web site!).
Careful scheduling and daily operation may well make the journey appear no different, despite the extra stops.
Thanks for a most thorough analysis.
Great pains are taken to avoid what the schedulers call "bangs," that is, occasions where two trains are scheduled to be in the same place, on the same track, in the same direction, at the same time (or closer than the signal system is designed to allow). I'm not a subway scheduler, but I was surprised to learn that there may be some "bangs" between the #2 and #5 services at 149th Street (or at least may have been in April 1999).
As IAB pointed out, one of the main problems with the current White Plains Road service pattern is the merging/diverging at E. 180th Street and at Third Avenue-149th Street. NYCT's plan sought to address the E. 180th Street problems by eliminating the switching at that location. It's a simple solution that costs nothing to implement, but, from the reaction, it is not perfect. As to Third Avenue, well, there's no choice but to switch if the express track along White Plains Road is to be used -- and nobody is advocating that express service be discontinued. Pinpoint scheduling AND good operating practices are required in order to make a 3-track-into-2-track service plan work.
David
Today's NY Press had an interesting front-page profile of Murray Sabrin, one of the four Republican contenders for the Senate from New Jersey. Sabrin is what you might call a far-right conservative, and at least according to this profile has cast himself as the defender of the middle-class suburban lifestyle. While I don't agree with all of his positions, Sabrin did say something that I've been saying all along - suburban sprawl is *not* evil. He noted that it's a sign of growth and hence of economic prosperity. Once again, not to gloat or anything, I've been saying that for some time (I knew virtually nothing about Sabrin until today). I guess the way I'd put it is that while sprawl may be a far-from-ideal pattern for growth, it's infinitely better than no growth at all.
By the way, today's NY Press *twice* mentioned, in different articles, that New York (and New Yorkers) are provincial in outlook, far from the common aura of sophistication. Yep, I've said that before, too.
I respond to this as a former (and probably future) suburbanite, and current "New Yorker," and I define myself, if I have to, both ways. Because of this, I think I can offer a balanced perspective on the issue.
Suburban sprawl is not evil in and of itself. Who doesn't want his own patch of ground and his own means of getting from here to there and back again? I do. But speaking strictly hypothetically, I also don't want to miss my kids' growing up (when I have them) because I'm stuck in traffic waiting to get to my house because it's a "sprawling" 1 1/2 hours from my job, though maybe 30 minutes as the crow flies. I don't want to spend half my life in my car.
There will never be enough highways to keep up with the demand for them. Transit, albeit with its own special problems and drawbacks, offers an alternative to the expense and time it takes for some people to commute using their automobiles.
As our cities "sprawl," we collectively lose both time and money spent getting to and from our jobs and our homes, and this is not to mention the social implications of "sprawl," which is a whole other subject: the farther apart we call get physically, the easier it is for people like this Mr. Sabrin to divide us up culturally. The last thing we need is one more politician to *promote* the distinctions that already exist in our society based on lifestyle and socio-economic class.
[As our cities "sprawl," we collectively lose both time and money spent getting to and from our jobs and our homes, and this is not to mention the social implications of "sprawl," which is a whole other subject: the farther apart we call get physically, the easier it is for people like this Mr. Sabrin to divide us up culturally. The last thing we need is one more politician to *promote* the distinctions that already exist in our society based on lifestyle and socio-economic class.]
I didn't get the impression from the article that Murray Sabrin wants to promote class/lifestyle distinctions. He makes no secret of his advocacy for the suburban middle class, which he sees as embattled and in need of advocacy.* With respect to sprawl, Sabrin didn't say that he liked it for its own sake. He probably also would acknoledge its drawbacks, although the article didn't get into that point. He instead said that sprawl is good because it's a sign of economic growth and prosperity. That's precisely what I've been saying for quite some time.
* = It's interesting to note that Andrey Slivka, the writer of the article, was a bit mystified this position, as he (Slivka) considers the suburban middle class to be the winning group in American society today and scarcely in need of a helping hand. Maybe so, although you'd never know that from reading the (anti-suburban) Times.
I'll confess that inherent in my reaction was my concurrence with Mr. Slivka's (the article writer's) take. I agree that sprawl is a sign of economic growth and prosperity, but not necessarily that this is good. I also offer no alternative, and I'm not here to tell anyone how to live, especially since I've never felt threatened, either as a suburbanite or Manhattanite, as apparently Mr. Sabrin (the candidate) does. I grew up as a kid in the suburban middle class, and as far as I know, my family never felt deficient in terms of receiving "advocacy." This is why, to me, Mr. Sabrin's position smacks of opportunism rather than justified concern. There are bigger problems in the cities and in poor rural areas, as far as I'm concerned.
Ideally, I think there ought to be room for *managed* sprawl and urban development concurrently. In that sense, I suppose we *do* need politicians to advocate for both "sides" of any issue, but it always seems like both sides' advocates have a winner-take-all mentality (but, hey, that's politics), especially as far as transportation issues. Why, for example, is *anyone* in the U.S. Congress of a mind to prevent states from spending their federal transportation dollars on rail or non-highway transit alternatives? Amendment after amendment is offered (thanks to the more-powerful highway lobby) to transportation bills trying to prevent states from doing just that (again, that's politics today). This position seems to be against the conservative grain, i.e. "states' rights" and all.
I'll close with this. In this month's George Magazine, there is an article about a congresswoman from California (L.A.) who won the Kennedy Profiles in Courage Award. Apparently, her district, which has a high minority population, had more than its fair share of landfills and toxic waste sites. She was successfull in standing up to the more powerful, richer areas of L.A., aleviating some of this problem for her district, hence the award (which is awarded to politicians who buck the system while risking their political future). What suburban problem does Mr. Sabrin see which requires the same courage to solve?
[Ideally, I think there ought to be room for *managed* sprawl and urban development concurrently. In that sense, I suppose we *do* need politicians to advocate for both "sides" of any issue, but it always seems like both sides' advocates have a winner-take-all mentality (but, hey, that's politics), especially as far as transportation issues. Why, for example, is *anyone* in the U.S. Congress of a mind to prevent states from spending their federal transportation dollars on rail or non-highway transit alternatives? Amendment after amendment is offered (thanks to the more-powerful highway lobby) to transportation bills trying to prevent states from doing just that (again, that's politics today). This position seems to be against the conservative grain, i.e. "states' rights" and all.]
I don't understand that position either. Not all areas of the country present the same issues when it comes to transportation, so it follows that a "one size fits all" approach to federal funding won't work. The New York metro area *should* be able to spend a higher (probably much higher) percentage of its funding on transit than, say, Tennessee or Arizona. Anything else fails to take geographic and economic realities into account. But as you said, that's politics ...
This morning as I was walking towards the train station, I looked up and saw the first car of a NL bound 3 train with some type graffiti on its side. The piece was large enough for me to see from the street.......
3Train#1977Mike